# Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts



## master_fx

Just wondering, Is pakistan interested and in needs of acquiring a few AWACS? 

Note from Admin: This thread is now a thread to discuss *Comparison & Analysis of Pakistans AWACs Capability.* Keep things down and mature for discussion.

Cheers.

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## melb4aust

Ofcourse, there's no need to ask for that. As we have talked alot, that Pakistan has already signed a deal with Sweden to acquire Eireye system. Incase some how, if that deal doesnt go through then we have China to provide AWACS system. 

I would like to go for more details on this issue later......

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## melb4aust

I wanna have a comparison between the Israel made "Phalcon" and Swedish made "Eireye". In which areas Phalcon Radar is better than or have an edge on Eireye or none.

Remember, In 1986 Pakistan did attempt to acquire a AWACS aircraft E-3 Sentinel from US however the U.S didnt sell it and instead offered the sub-par E-2 Hawkeye. And Phalcon is a similar kind of system as E-3.







I have gone through some article according to them Pakistani govrnment made so many blunders in late 70's and 1980's one of them was to disapprove the deal for the production of Mirage-F1 fighters at KAMRA and later Mirage-2000. It was totally approved my french government and US has nothing to do with that too that time.

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## jaman_thakkar

eyrie cannot be compared with phalcons...phalcons r way to advanced than eyries.eyries r suitable for small airforces.phalcons can easily jam the elctronics of eyrie and make it isolate from its ground based radars and PAF aircrafts.then it will be an easy target for IAF fighters.

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## Neo

Cabinet okays $1 billion deal for Swedish AWACS 

 
*ISLAMABAD *_(updated on: May 24, 2006, 21:41 PST_): The cabinet approved on Wednesday plans for the purchase of a $1 billion airborne early warning surveillance system from Swedish firms Saab and Ericsson to boost its air defences.

"The Federal Cabinet accorded the go-ahead to the Ministry of Defence Production of the proposed purchase of AWACS aircraft from Sweden," said an official statement issued after the cabinet meeting.

Defence group Saab announced in October that it and Ericsson had won the order worth more than 8 billion crowns ($1 billion) from Pakistan.

The statement said defence officials informed the cabinet that Pakistan lacked a reliable surveillance system for its air space.

"In order to safeguard the air defences of Pakistan, it was deemed necessary to have the latest, airborne early warning systems," it added.

The system includes Saab 2000 turboprop aircraft equipped with airborne radar from Ericsson.

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## Munir

Great news Neo. I remember that a few months ago there was a report that a saab 2000 was made ready to be fitted with the Ericson radar. That must be in final stage and now the go sign is there it will be matter of months before first will eb delivered. The planes are already build (second hand). It is just adding the radar and adding the electronics. Anyone mor eon timeschedule and number of platforms? Still 6+1?


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## Reichmarshal

Neo said:


> Cabinet okays $1 billion deal for Swedish AWACS
> 
> 
> *ISLAMABAD *_(updated on: May 24, 2006, 21:41 PST_): The cabinet approved on Wednesday plans for the purchase of a $1 billion airborne early warning surveillance system from Swedish firms Saab and Ericsson to boost its air defences.
> 
> "The Federal Cabinet accorded the go-ahead to the Ministry of Defence Production of the proposed purchase of AWACS aircraft from Sweden," said an official statement issued after the cabinet meeting.
> 
> Defence group Saab announced in October that it and Ericsson had won the order worth more than 8 billion crowns ($1 billion) from Pakistan.
> 
> The statement said defence officials informed the cabinet that Pakistan lacked a reliable surveillance system for its air space.
> 
> "In order to safeguard the air defences of Pakistan, it was deemed necessary to have the latest, airborne early warning systems," it added.
> 
> The system includes Saab 2000 turboprop aircraft equipped with airborne radar from Ericsson.


 
Good news indeed


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## melb4aust

jaman_thakkar said:


> eyrie cannot be compared with phalcons...phalcons r way to advanced than eyries.eyries r suitable for small airforces.phalcons can easily jam the elctronics of eyrie and make it isolate from its ground based radars and PAF aircrafts.then it will be an easy target for IAF fighters.


 
Prove it, provide some authentic source for that info.

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## jaman_thakkar

well what to prove???PHALCON IS THE WORLDS MOST ADVANCED AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING SYSTEM...even more advanced than NATO's E-3 C sentry which uses machanically rotating antenna(rotodome) so let alone eyrie...


this link will prove that phalcon is the worlds most advanced awacs.(read carefully)



http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/phalcon.htm

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## air marshal

yes! No Border Violation From Indian Border

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## Owais

jaman_thakkar said:


> well what to prove???PHALCON IS THE WORLDS MOST ADVANCED AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING SYSTEM...even more advanced than NATO's E-3 C sentry which uses machanically rotating antenna(rotodome) so let alone eyrie...
> 
> 
> this link will prove that phalcon is the worlds most advanced awacs.(read carefully)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/phalcon.htm


 
Then why the hell thay are going for eyrie when they know that India already have a counter option.:hrr: 

don't they have other options??

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## Bull

Owais said:


> Then why the hell thay are going for eyrie when they know that India already have a counter option.:hrr:
> 
> don't they have other options??


 
I think US/Israel wasnt offering them an AWACS,so they r buying the best of the rest.

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## Neo

Munir said:


> Great news Neo. I remember that a few months ago there was a report that a saab 2000 was made ready to be fitted with the Ericson radar. That must be in final stage and now the go sign is there it will be matter of months before first will eb delivered. The planes are already build (second hand). It is just adding the radar and adding the electronics. Anyone mor eon timeschedule and number of platforms? Still 6+1?


 
Yep, great news it is!
Haven't got the link about the exact number, but the original deal included 6+1 ready to be delivered from fall 2006.
Aircrafts are already available thru saab.


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## Neo

Bull said:


> I think US/Israel wasnt offering them an AWACS,so they r buying the best of the rest.


Not entirely true Bull.
PAF evaluated the E-2C Hawkeye and even a B-737 based AWACS but opted to buy the Erieye for political reasons.
Bush is not going to stay forever in Washington.


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## Neo

Owais said:


> Then why the hell thay are going for eyrie when they know that India already have a counter option.:hrr:
> 
> don't they have other options??


Erieye is the ideal platform within the requirements of PAF and it comes cheap.
We had other options including US and Chinese design.

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## Owais

jaman_thakkar said:


> well what to prove???PHALCON IS THE WORLDS MOST ADVANCED AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING SYSTEM...even more advanced than NATO's E-3 C sentry which uses machanically rotating antenna(rotodome) so let alone eyrie...
> 
> 
> this link will prove that phalcon is the worlds most advanced awacs.(read carefully)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/phalcon.htm


 
The link didn't say that phalcons can easily jam the elctronics of eyrie.


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## melb4aust

Owais said:


> The link didn't say that phalcons can easily jam the elctronics of eyrie.


 
Plus i dont see any comparison where it can say that Phalcon has ablility to counter Eireye or E-3. Else there's got to be some thing of because PAF choose Eireye. I wont neglect that Phalcon is'nt advance, but i wanna know how it is different from other AWACS systems or what kind of superiority it has?, if there is any .


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## jaman_thakkar

The link I posted just to show that it is the most advanced early warning system.and it is clearly written there...besides I have lost so many sources which I always keep in DOC files becuz of the virus in my PC.but according to those sources phalcon has tremandous ability to jam the electronics of the most of the awacses.this was the main reason that america opposed isreal from selling it to china.this was the main reason that india gave up the idea to go for russian mainstay awacs as it could be jammed by E-3 which is in saudia airforce and its possibility to get into PAF's hands during the war.anyway if i get some free time from my busy schedule i will surely search again for those sources...

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## EagleEyes

China already has a counter measurement of Phalcon AEW&Cs.

Pictures is attached. The big plane is the one with Phalcon like AEW&Cs.



> *China's Third AEW Program*
> 
> BEIJING - The Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force (CPLAAF) has introduced a new airborne early warning aircraft, based on its new Y-8F-600, a development of the Antonov An-12 airframe. The new aircraft is fitted with a conventional E-2C Hawkeye-style rotodome that rotates to give a 360-degree coverage. Little is known about the performance of the radar system fitted on the new Y-8 AEW. The aircraft's rotodome appears to be larger than that of the E-2C Hawkeye. The aircraft has a solid nose, which replaces the original glazed nose on the Y-8 design. A pair of vertical stabilizers is fitted on the tips of the tail-plane to enhance directional stability.
> 
> This is the third type of airborne early warning aircraft to be introduced by the CPLAAF in recent years. The An-12 airframe has previously been used for a program based around a linear-shaped, electronically steered, phased-array (ESA) radar that appears similar in shape and size to the Swedish Ericsson PS-890 Erieye. The aircraft made its maiden flight in November 2001. The finalized variant, nick-named "Balance Beam" from the shape of its radar, is based on the Y-8F600 and first flew in January 2005. Assuming the Balance Beam radar has similar performance to the PS-890, it would provide a maximum search range of up to 450 kilometers. As a phased-array radar, the system should be capable of 'spot' modes as well as wide search modes, enabling it to be used for ground mapping and targeting acquisition.
> 
> The second type of Chinese AEW aircraft is a very different concept. The Kongjing-2000 (KJ-2000) is based on the Russian-made A-50 (NATO codename: Mainstay) airframe outfitted with the Chinese-made, electronically steered, phased-array (ESA) radar and C3I system. At least three prototypes have been built since 2002. The aircraft is expected to be ready for operational deployment by 2006-07.
> 
> The KJ-2000 was originally intended to be equipped with the Israeli Phalcon airborne early warning (AEW) radar and associated C3I system. In May 1997, Israel and Russia reached agreement on modifying one A-50 for $250 million, with the option of three more AWACS for a total cost of $1 billion. Russia secured about 20 percent of the deal. After some delay, in October 1999, Russia transferred an A-50 airframe to Israel for the installation of the Phalcon AEW radar system. By May 2000, Israel had nearly completed work on the aircraft under the designation A-50I. Following pressure from the U.S. government, the Israeli government cancelled the deal with China in July 2000.
> 
> *In place of the Phalcon radar, the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronic Technology developed its own active phased-array radar using Israeli-made Phalcon radar and other onboard electronic systems retrieved from the unfinished A-50I. Although the radar installation looks like a rotodome, it does not rotate. The KJ-2000's radar antenna modules are placed in a triangular configuration inside the round radome to provide a 360-degree coverage. *
> 
> The existence of three parallel AEW programs is an excellent illustration of the importance placed by the Chinese armed forces on the capability offered by these aircraft. In particular, AEW capability has been seen by the military as vital to obtain air superiority over the Taiwan Strait. The earliest Chinese AEW prototype flew in the mid-1980s and consisted of a French Tiger radar carried in a Tu-4 (a B-29 derivative). All three of the current programs represent a major advance on that primitive testbed. The latest type of AEW aircraft is significantly less advanced than the earlier two programs and uses older technology. The most likely rationale for its development is that it is an insurance program intended to provide an interim AEW capability in the event of more advanced systems experiencing developmental problems.


 
Image: http://www.pakistaniforces.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=49

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## Neo

ISLAMABAD (May 28 2006): Swedish defence equipment manufacturing company, Saab, has agreed to supply 'Airborne Warning and Control System' (Awacs) to Pakistan on liberal terms of 'supplier-credit' of $1 billion, and transfer of technology.

Sources in the Cabinet here told _Business Recorder _that it was necessary to acquire latest the Awacs to safeguard the country's air defence. "Efforts to acquire such a system were being made since 1997 and, after a number of trials and evaluation of different systems in the world, Pakistan Air Force finally selected the Swedish system in 2004," sources quoted Defence Ministry officials as briefing the Cabinet on last Wednesday.

They said that the system would comprise 'Saab' aircraft, mounted with Ericson computer-based software technology. They said that technical and commercial offers were evaluated and, after intense negotiations, a financial and technological package, with an attractive offset package, was agreed upon with the company.

They said that one Cabinet member asked Defence Ministry officials that the offset facilities should include training of Pakistan's software engineers.

It may be remembered that the Cabinet in its May 24 meeting had approved purchase of the latest surveillance aircraft--Awacs--for PAF from Sweden.

http://www.brecorder.com/index.php?id=431079&currPageNo=1&query=&search=&term=&supDate=


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## ajaybhutani

Neo said:


> Erieye is the ideal platform within the requirements of PAF and it comes cheap.
> We had other options including US and Chinese design.


any details of american AWACS on offer to paksitan???


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## melb4aust

ajaybhutani said:


> any details of american AWACS on offer to paksitan???


I guess webmaster has already given details for the chinese option, and the other option available is the HAWK EYE, E-2, which PAF would unlikely to go for.


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## ajaybhutani

melb4aust said:


> I guess webmaster has already given details for the chinese option, and the other option available is the HAWK EYE, E-2, which PAF would unlikely to go for.


the statement i was responding to was


> We had other options including US


So i was simply asking for a link for options from US.... Did they offer any AWACS to paksitan at all??

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## melb4aust

ajaybhutani said:


> the statement i was responding to was
> 
> So i was simply asking for a link for options from US.... Did they offer any AWACS to paksitan at all??


 
I Think i have already mentioned E-2 Hawkeye, better read some thing carefully.


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## ajaybhutani

melb4aust said:


> I Think i have already mentioned E-2 Hawkeye, better read some thing carefully.


but u didnt give a link for it..did u ? i am just asking u to support ur statement..

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## MOO

*China reveals Y-8 AEW* 

Take notice guys, first ever ingeniously built Chinese AEW system. There adversaries now has much much more to worry about now against the PLAAF capabilities. Like Gcapo had just said..

Quote:
"When China rises the world will tremble"-Gcapo.


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## melb4aust

ajaybhutani said:


> but u didnt give a link for it..did u ? i am just asking u to support ur statement..


 
During that time period the Pakistan Air Force's Air Defense system had gone through massive modernization; including the induction and integration of new land-based AN/TPS-47 radars and new Crotale Surface-to-Air missiles. Attempts to acquire a new AWACS aircraft were also made - with the E-3 Sentinel being desired, however the U.S would not sell it and instead offered the sub-par E-2 Hawkeye.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Air_Force
http://www.answers.com/topic/pakistan-air-force

Another one 
Read article number 18
http://www.heritage.org/Research/AsiaandthePacific/asb66.cfm

Even if thats not enough here's another1
http://worldaffairsboard.com/printthread.php?t=3936&pp=50


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## ajaybhutani

melb4aust said:


> Even if thats not enough here's another1
> http://worldaffairsboard.com/printthread.php?t=3936&pp=50


this link is surely nough for me .. 
thnx.


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## melb4aust

ajaybhutani said:


> this link is surely nough for me ..
> thnx.


 
Thankgod, you was almost gonna take my heart out..... 

or i was gonna do something to ya1instead


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## Kaiser

All future pakistani fighters will presumably be datalinked with the eireye. The jf-16 and J-10 might be equiped with the DATALINK-16 the same advanced datalink used is the gripen and some missiles. Even without datalink-16 the jf-17 will still have a considerably better datalink than most fighters and any fighter in the iaf


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## air marshal

*Whats the Major difference between Su-30MKK & Su-30MKI?*

*Also the major difference between US AWACS & Sweden AWACS?*


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## MOO

air marshal said:


> *Whats the Major difference between Su-30MKK & Su-30MKI?*
> 
> *Also the major difference between US AWACS & Sweden AWACS?*



Its like the difference between an F15C/D and an F15E.


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## Neo

I believe that the Major difference between MKK and MKI is TVC. MKI is also equipped with a mix of French, Russian and Israeli avionics and systems.


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## Munir

As far as I know the planes differ in roles. a2a versus a2g. And indeed the MKK is Russian parts while MKI is Israeli/French input. But weapons remain same.


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## TOPGUN

Iam New To This But I Just Wanted To Say Hi To Everyone And Hope To Join The Topics.

Topgun.


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## TOPGUN

Do You Guys Think That More J-10's Should Be Ordered?


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## MOO

TOPGUN said:


> Do You Guys Think That More J-10's Should Be Ordered?




Pakistan has already agreed to order them, check out this thread.:bat: 

http://www.pakistaniforces.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1019


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## TOPGUN

Thanks Moo !


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## TOPGUN

I Think We Should Require These J-10 Aircraft In Large Numbers Do You Guys Think So I Mean This A Great Front Line Aircraft And We Need A Punch Like This In Our Force Do You Guys Agree?


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## MOO

The 150 FC-1s will be our main fighter but for strategic deep strike mission within enemy territory we need such a fighter like the J-10 and F16s. Yes, I agree on you that Pakistan should get many of those Chinese J-10s but money will be a factor of the outcome of how many we can buy.

The J-10 and new US F16s that the PAF will eventually buy should be the frontline fighter for the future Airforce.:flag:


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## melb4aust

I still wonder whether, EF-2000 Typhoon, is of the same class as of F/A-22 Raptor. Raptor indeed is the 5th generation fighter jet, but im not so sure about Eurofighter. I think instead of ordering new F-16's Pakistan should have gone for Gripens. That would have been a best combination with Eireye. 

But again inducting another platform would have been an issue.

Now staying with the topic. There is a huge difference between Phalcon and Eireye. Phalcon is much much more advance than Eireye as I have gone through many articles.

Did you guyz ever think about a real war scenario, how both of these radars can help the airforces on both side to have an advantage over each other. This is the best way we can compare them.


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## ChinaWall65

melb4aust said:


> I still wonder whether, EF-2000 Typhoon, is of the same class as of F/A-22 Raptor.



F/A-22 is a lot better than EF-2000. Better stealth technology, engine, and avionics...too bad F/A-22 is so expensive.


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## Kaiser

melb4aust said:


> I still wonder whether, EF-2000 Typhoon, is of the same class as of F/A-22 Raptor. Raptor indeed is the 5th generation fighter jet, but im not so sure about Eurofighter. I think instead of ordering new F-16's Pakistan should have gone for Gripens. That would have been a best combination with Eireye.
> 
> But again inducting another platform would have been an issue.
> 
> Now staying with the topic. There is a huge difference between Phalcon and Eireye. Phalcon is much much more advance than Eireye as I have gone through many articles.
> 
> Did you guyz ever think about a real war scenario, how both of these radars can help the airforces on both side to have an advantage over each other. This is the best way we can compare them.


 
Its not much much more advanced, Eireye has some things better than the phalcon and phalcon has some things better than the Erieye

Also our JF-17's and J-10 are likely gonna be equiped with Datalink-16 enabling it to use the advanced datalink installed on the gripen but at cheap the price.

Dont know about F-16 though


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## ajaybhutani

Kaiser said:


> Its not much much more advanced, Eireye has some things better than the phalcon and phalcon has some things better than the Erieye


can you please elaborate on what better things are you talking about on both sides??


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## Kaiser

ajaybhutani said:


> can you please elaborate on what better things are you talking about on both sides??


 
Why not do a little research yourslef?:smile:


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## EagleEyes

Does anyone have information regarding our AEW&C system? The Erieye that Pakistan is getting. Is it side looking airborne radar (SLAR) from Ericsson Microwave Systems?

If that is true then Erieye radar will provide 360 degree coverage with optimum performance of the radar over the 150ÃÂ° azimuthal sectors on each side of the aircraft.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/s100b_argus/

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## Kaiser

WebMaster said:


> Does anyone have information regarding our AEW&C system? The Erieye that Pakistan is getting. Is it side looking airborne radar (SLAR) from Ericsson Microwave Systems?
> 
> If that is true then Erieye radar will provide 360 degree coverage with optimum performance of the radar over the 150ÃÂ° azimuthal sectors on each side of the aircraft.
> 
> http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/s100b_argus/


 
We are currently going for 7 eireye awacs all of which are to be data-link to each and every single one of PAF's future fighters (jf-17, J-10,f-16) PAF is also closely evaluating the chinese AWAC which is also pretty advanced


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## Neo

WebMaster said:


> Does anyone have information regarding our AEW&C system? The Erieye that Pakistan is getting. Is it side looking airborne radar (SLAR) from Ericsson Microwave Systems?
> 
> If that is true then Erieye radar will provide 360 degree coverage with optimum performance of the radar over the 150ÃÂ° azimuthal sectors on each side of the aircraft.
> 
> http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/s100b_argus/


 
Yes, Erieye will be fitted with SLAR.
I think I posted an article about it somewhere.
I'll try to find it.


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## Kaiser

Pakistan was even offered a naval awac system from the US but was turned down. I think our 12 p3c orions, gaurded by 7 F-16's and 8 jf-17, and 1 eireye system would be a pretty credible deterent to the IN and its naval arm

We might even be looking at extra heli's to go along the Z-9


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## Neo

Kaiser said:


> Pakistan was even offered a naval awac system from the US but was turned down. I think our 12 p3c orions, gaurded by 7 F-16's and 8 jf-17, and 1 eireye system would be a pretty credible deterent to the IN and its naval arm
> 
> We might even be looking at extra heli's to go along the Z-9


 
PAF lacks a dedicated maritime fighter and PN's naval air arm is too small to pose a credible deterent or even threat to IN.
I'm sure Erieye will boost our defence and intercept abilities but we need something to counter Indian Harriers and Mig-29K.


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## Kaiser

Neo said:


> PAF lacks a dedicated maritime fighter and PN's naval air arm is too small to pose a credible deterent or even threat to IN.
> I'm sure Erieye will boost our defence and intercept abilities but we need something to counter Indian Harriers and Mig-29K.


 
The harriers arnt a big of a threat

Remember how in in the falklands conflict the argentinan naval airarm had less than 5 fighters (mirage 5) but where able to take on the royal navy and almost won?

Pakistan naval air arm has a similar strategy know that we have JF-17 on its way we can atleast give 12-20 thunders to the navy and 10 F-16 with 1 eireye

Also our p3c orion instructors where trained in the US on various tactics such as the launch volly of upto 20 harpoons aimed at different ships. This strategy is currently being perfected at a small scale.


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## Chukkar

Neo said:


> I believe that the Major difference between MKK and MKI is TVC. MKI is also equipped with a mix of French, Russian and Israeli avionics and systems.



Not just TVC, but the overall avionics structure and the key sensors are different. The MKI has an open architecture and the Bars radar, with key advantages over the MKKs slotted array radar, and lastly, its EW suite- RWR/ MAWS/ SPJ is much better than what the MKK has. The MKI has a better OLS/IRST as well, and HAL/UOMZ are currently in talks with Sagem to improve it further. Both the MKK and MKI have similar datalinks, but the MKI has additional secure radios-INCOM series.
Overall, the MKI is a much more capable aircraft than the MKK.


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## Keysersoze

Kaiser said:


> The harriers arnt a big of a threat
> 
> Remember how in in the falklands conflict the argentinan naval airarm had less than 5 fighters (mirage 5) but where able to take on the royal navy and almost won?



I think you will find that most of the Argentinian sorties were flown from land bases. If you look at any of the many film clips (or photo's) plus the aircraft were Etendards not mirages (either that or skyhawks)

Also the Argentinians lost 72 aircraft in 1100 sorties. against 14 aircraft in 2528 sorties.

Quote restored.


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## Neo

Correct me if I'm wrong but Argentinian airforce was flying A-4's, Super Etandard's and Pucara's (local lightweight trainer/fighter) at that time, none of them a match for the superior British Harriers.


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## Keysersoze

The Pucara was actually a ground attack aircraft (and a good one by all accounts)Hence a special forces raid on pebble island to destroy a number of them at the airbase there.

However you are correct regarding the other aircraft.(despite the excellent efforts of the argentinian pilots whose efforts were notable.)
It should be noted though that The Harriers were given another advantage in the form of a delivery of the lastest version of the sidewinder missile (covertly by America) just before the task force reached the Falklands.

The interesting thing was, that the Argentinians were afraid to commit their aircraft carrier and it never played a part. PAF and PN only have to keep the enemy at a distance (In the naval conflict) and not actually have to destroy them in order to win that battle.


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## Keysersoze

well i have a interesting pic of the inside of a erieye.

points to note.......only one workstation......that may reduce endurance....


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## blain2

keysersoze said:


> well i have a interesting pic of the inside of a erieye.
> 
> points to note.......only one workstation......that may reduce endurance....



Most of the information on this thread is fairly dated. The delay in Pakistani procurement for the Erieye has been for quite a few reasons. The platforms that PAF is to acquire is actually quite different from the ones that even HAF has. Many of the mods that PAF has asked for are also going into Swedish AF's own Erieye platforms retroactively. This includes additional operator consoles (to completely remove the GCI from the picture) and an enhanced fore and aft coverage.

Additionally the platform that PAF has chosen has an endurance of 8 hours which coupled with 5-6 airframes gives more than enough coverage to the PAF for its mission requirements.

Those (in the initial pages of this thread) claiming that Phalcon is so much better since it can jam Erieye etc., are quite clueless. Most of the time IAF Phalcons and PAF Erieyes will see each other at such ranges where even jamming would yield only limited results. Swedes have far more experience than the Israelis and many of the NATO airforces in alternate linking technologies in the face of EW/Jamming. This and quite a few other reasons make Erieye an extremely effective platform (the numbers alone on the PAF side have an inherent benefit in terms of providing PAF with 1:2 redundancy and lessening stress on the airframe/engine etc.). With IFR, loiter times would be enhanced even more when needed.

So while India may have gone for the top-end in terms of extreme detection range etc., the new Generation of Erieye is going to be an extremely potent platform in the Indo-Pak context.


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## melb4aust

Undoubtly!!!

Well i was going through couple of articles on google related to Pakistani awacs program. I found that the J-10's which pakistan is acquiring from china cant be linked with Eireye. Because both nations are not willing to share each others technology and dont wanna release each others secrets i.e*(Sweden Eireye : China J-10 programs), *to do the modifications to link J-10's as both system requires heavy wear and tear.. 

And thats why Chinese awacs system was in pakistan lately. To link J-10's with china's own awacs. One more thing Our Air chief has also mentioned that, though the link between J-10 and Eireye is not possible but we will use some sort of a bridge to counter that. He used the terminology word "*Bridge*", I wonder what's that word Bridge means and how it will work?


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## niaz

Kaiser said:


> The harriers arnt a big of a threat
> 
> Remember how in in the falklands conflict the argentinan naval airarm had less than 5 fighters (mirage 5) but where able to take on the royal navy and almost won?
> 
> Pakistan naval air arm has a similar strategy know that we have JF-17 on its way we can atleast give 12-20 thunders to the navy and 10 F-16 with 1 eireye
> 
> Also our p3c orion instructors where trained in the US on various tactics such as the launch volly of upto 20 harpoons aimed at different ships. This strategy is currently being perfected at a small scale.




Sorry that I came across just now. Just to correct the facts. Argentinians had 3 Squadrons of Mirage 111 and its Israeli versions the Desher. They had only 5 "Super Etendards". It was only Super Etendards that could carry "Exocest" missiles. They also had a large number of A-4s.

Most of the attacks were by iron bombs using A-4 Skyhawks; no match for Naval Harriers. Mirages were used mostly as fighter escorts. Royal Navy sunk nearly half the Argentinian Airforce and lost/damage 8 capital ships including a troop transport vessel of her own. Two of the kills were by Exocest, rest thru normal bombing.

At that time there was no air strip in the Falklands where jets could land. Local air support was by Pucaras. All Argentinian jets were flying from 4 hundred miles away and thus not able to get into a sustained dog fight with 40 or so Harriers of the Royal Navy. Still it was a close run thing and only an "Iron Lady" of Margret Thatchers nerve could persevere.

Jury is still out as to whether Falkland war was worth it. War was actually won once UK atomic submarine sunk 'Gen Belgrano' sinking 300 or so Argentinian sailors. Argetinians lost heart. Argentina had 2 diesel electric submarines and also an aircraft carrier '25 of May' but Navy never did any thing. As a matter of fact it was only the Airforce that fought from the Argentinian side. Land war was also a minor event.


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## Munir

The reason why Exocets were not 100% killnig was the fact that Argentinian pilots did use them very fast and in the first period of the war. They did not have huge stocks. They shot Exocet asap as they saw a blip. Not that good for your kill ratio. Same reason PAF had a low kill ratio with their F16 and AIM9... One has to learn how to use the weapon effectively.


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## blain2

niaz said:


> Sorry that I came across just now. Just to correct the facts. Argentinians had 3 Squadrons of Mirage 111 and its Israeli versions the Desher. They had only 5 "Super Etendards". It was only Super Etendards that could carry "Exocest" missiles. They also had a large number of A-4s.
> 
> Most of the attacks were by iron bombs using A-4 Skyhawks; no match for Naval Harriers. Mirages were used mostly as fighter escorts. Royal Navy sunk nearly half the Argentinian Airforce and lost/damage 8 capital ships including a troop transport vessel of her own. Two of the kills were by Exocest, rest thru normal bombing.
> 
> At that time there was no air strip in the Falklands where jets could land. Local air support was by Pucaras. All Argentinian jets were flying from 4 hundred miles away and thus not able to get into a sustained dog fight with 40 or so Harriers of the Royal Navy. Still it was a close run thing and only an "Iron Lady" of Margret Thatchers nerve could persevere.
> 
> Jury is still out as to whether Falkland war was worth it. War was actually won once UK atomic submarine sunk 'Gen Belgrano' sinking 300 or so Argentinian sailors. Argetinians lost heart. Argentina had 2 diesel electric submarines and also an aircraft carrier '25 of May' but Navy never did any thing. As a matter of fact it was only the Airforce that fought from the Argentinian side. Land war was also a minor event.



The IAI suplied aircraft to FAA included the "Nesher". The rest you are pretty much on mark. For those interested in a very very good reading on contemporary air campaigns only need to look up Lon Nordeen's "Air war in the missile age".


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## Contrarian

you guys are seriously off topic LOL  
this threat is about AWACS

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## Keysersoze

Ok then lets get back to the topic (there have been a few more developments since the last post )

It's interesting that Pak has opted for two different AEW systems however do you not think that they could have opted to use the same airframes for both systems?(either the P-3 or the SAAB 2000) It would have made the logistical situation a little easier.....Both airframes look equally capable of taking either radar system.


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## blain2

It would have if the same service was going to operate them. This is not the case...and also the integration would have been a challenge (try getting a dual side AESA made by Ericsson installed on a LM platform and you will very quickly see how cost goes up considerably).

Pakistan opted with solutions that have already been implemented (Hawkeye2000 on P3s) or were easily doable for the integrators (as in the case of Saab2000 with Erieye). 

The other point is that PN already operates P-3s and the logistics would be simplified for the service if the AEW&C platform is also P-3. 

For Airforce, it was more an issue of capability....if I recall correctly, Hawkeye's performance in certain theaters was not up to expectation thus PAF altogether stayed away from it....the challenges are lesser when the same platform has to be used in maritime roles.

I think the initial plan was to purchase additional Erieyes for the PN as well, however I believe the USG sweetened the deal by offering the P-3 based Hawkeye2000 to the PN (I believe the GoP would save considerable money as money for these would come from FMS/assistance instead of the GoP financing as is the case with the Erieyes).


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## EagleEyes

I wonder that too, but unfortunately Pakistan is going for another platform in development for the joint AEW system being built by China and Pakistan. 

I guess the case with the logistics is not being looked at or PAF can afford to go through.


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## Keysersoze

Perhaps the Chinese system is not yet at the level of qaulity required and is seen as being a more long term project for Sino-Pak designers. The experience gained from operating two different systems will of course be invaluable.

I suppose another issue would be the integration of the various aircraft types in to a viable system.

I am curious as to the differences between the performance over sea as opposed to over land. The E2 system is better over water?


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## araz

I dont understand this development. Pakistan is acquiring Saab with Ericson AWACs, for its airforce, and Hawkeyes 2000 based on P3s for its Navy. It is understandable if one assumes that the 2 systems have different utilities for the 2 forces concerned. However we also go on and sign an agreement with China to jointly develop an AEWACs system. This is where it gets confusing for me. So far we have spent $1.85 Billion on the 2 systems and obviously the research would mean more money. Joint development in its own right is an indicator that both parties are not satisfied with the product they have at hand at the moment(ie the chinese AWACS system). The only logical conclusion is that the AWACs capability being acquired will be looked at closely with a view to enhancing the capability of the system that is being developed. That would be an interesting thought because an offshoot of this thought would be who then is paying/contributing to the cost of the systems that are being acquired? Could somebody in the know shed some light on the matter. 
WaSalam
Araz


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## blain2

keysersoze said:


> I am curious as to the differences between the performance over sea as opposed to over land. The E2 system is better over water?



I am not sure of the exact specifics, however I remember reading something about this in the mid-late 80s where it was mentioned that PAF rejected the E-2C (after evaluation) because of its inability to differentiate between clutter etc. esp in mountainous regions (all of Pakistani Northern Areas) because back then, the primary CAP sorties were being flown over the northwest to thwart Soviet/Afghan aircraft from violating Pakistani airspace.


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## blain2

araz said:


> I dont understand this development. Pakistan is acquiring Saab with Ericson AWACs, for its airforce, and Hawkeyes 2000 based on P3s for its Navy. It is understandable if one assumes that the 2 systems have different utilities for the 2 forces concerned. However we also go on and sign an agreement with China to jointly develop an AEWACs system. This is where it gets confusing for me. So far we have spent $1.85 Billion on the 2 systems and obviously the research would mean more money. Joint development in its own right is an indicator that both parties are not satisfied with the product they have at hand at the moment(ie the chinese AWACS system). The only logical conclusion is that the AWACs capability being acquired will be looked at closely with a view to enhancing the capability of the system that is being developed. That would be an interesting thought because an offshoot of this thought would be who then is paying/contributing to the cost of the systems that are being acquired? Could somebody in the know shed some light on the matter.
> WaSalam
> Araz



I think you have the right idea. The other thing is to fulfill the tactical requirements of the PAF/PN versus strategic requirement for the AEW&CS platforms. The Erieye and Hawkeye2000 would provide an OTH capability to PAF/PN in the near to intermediate future, however from the looks of it, Pakistan believes that working with Chinese, it would have a much better AEW&CS capability eventually in the long run....I think a wise and prudent approach any which way you look at it.


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## EagleEyes

*Pakistan Air Force, Chinese aviation ink MoU on AWACS*

Pakistan-China Air Force 
Pakistan Air Force on Friday signed Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with a Chinese Aviation Company for Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS), officials said. 

Pakistan Air Force and Chinese Aviation Industries have agreed for long-term collaboration and co-development in the fields of aircraft manufacturing and other related fields including AWACS, a statement from the PAF said. 

In this regard an MOU was signed at Islamabad between Pakistan Air Force and a Chinese Aviation Company, CETC, for the improvement and further development of Chinese Airborne Early Warning System, it said. 

The same may be delivered to Pakistan in coming years, the statement said. 

It said that Pakistan Air Force is already collaborating with another Chinese Aviation Company, CATIC, for the co-development and co-production of JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft. 

Eight JF-17s are expected to be delivered to Pakistan during 2007, the statement said.

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0611248709175135.htm


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## alamgir

jaman_thakkar said:


> eyrie cannot be compared with phalcons...phalcons r way to advanced than eyries.eyries r suitable for small airforces.phalcons can easily jam the elctronics of eyrie and make it isolate from its ground based radars and PAF aircrafts.then it will be an easy target for IAF fighters.



Ericsson ERIEYE SAAB 2000 
Thursday, 05 October 2006 
The Saab 2000 regional transport turboprop aircraft was developed by Saab Aircraft of LinkÃÂ¶ping, Sweden. The aircraft first flew in March 1992, and Swiss became a first launch customer. Production of the aircraft seized in 1999, with around 60 Saab 2000 aircrafts operational world wide, but the limited production started again for Pakistan Air Force with the requirement of up to seven aircrafts equipped with Ericsson Erieye PS-890 side looking active phased-array pulse-Doppler radar. 

The aircrafts maximum cruise speed capability is around 370 KTAS (knots true airspeed), 685km/h and the maximum range is 2,868km. Saab 2000 allows operators in high speed performance to interchange fleet timetables with fighter aircrafts on 500nm routes. The aircraft is capable of reaching its destination to over 1,000nm in a flight time of three hours.

ERIEYE
ERIEYE is the first high-performance, long-range Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) system based on active phased-array pulse-Doppler radar. 

This new-generation system is installed on Saab 2000 turboprop aircraft. It meets full AEW&C requirements for detecting and tracking targets at ranges of up to 450 km over land or water. 

ERIEYE is a complete AEW&C system, including radar (with integrated SSR/IFF), electronic support measures, communications and data links, comprehensive command-and-control facilities and self-protection system. 

The ERIEYE radar, with its fixed electronically scanned antenna and use of adaptive radar control techniques, has superior resolution accuracy. When compared to traditional rotodome-based solutions, it provides enhanced detection and tracking performance, including the active simultaneous tracking of multiple targets. In addition, the radar offers significantly improved resistance to electronic countermeasures (ECM). 

State-of-the-art command-and-control system gives the on-board mission-system crew full capability for AEW&C roles as well as maximum flexibility for other peacetime and war missions. ERIEYE is fully interoperable with and easily integrated into NATO Air Defense Command Systems. 

Flight Desk
Saab 2000 aircraft is equipped with a Rockwell Collins Pro Line 4 avionics suite with integrated avionics processor (IAP), a traffic alert and collision avoidance system (TCAS) and an engine indication and crew alerting system (EICAS). The flight control systems include an attitude heading and reference system (AHRS) and a digital air data system (DADS).

Design
SAAB 2000 aircraft design is based on Saab 340, but with a longer fuselage and larger wing. 


Flight Desk
Saab 2000 aircraft is equipped with a Rockwell Collins Pro Line 4 avionics suite with integrated avionics processor (IAP), a traffic alert and collision avoidance system (TCAS) and an engine indication and crew alerting system (EICAS). The flight control systems include an attitude heading and reference system (AHRS) and a digital air data system (DADS).

Design
SAAB 2000 aircraft design is based on Saab 340, but with a longer fuselage and larger wing. 
Engine

Two Rolls-Royce Allison AE 2100A turboprop engines power the aircraft, each engine rate at 3,096kW and fitted with Lucas Aerospace full authority digital engine control (FADEC). The engine cowlings are manufactured by Westland and Hispano-Suiza.


There is a total usable capacity of 5,300 liters by two integral fuel tanks installed in the outer wing. The fuel system is fitted with an over wing gravity refueling station in each wing and one pressure refueling station in the starboard wing.


The Dowty six-bladed propellers, type R381, are constant speed propellers with auto-feathering and reverse pitch. The blades are fitted with electrical de-icing.

i think know you can change your mind that phalcon not better then erieye


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## Keysersoze

alamgir said:


> i think know you can change your mind that phalcon not better then erieye



Nice info, but the Phalcon is a better system. 


HOWEVER it is not omnipotent.......(after all it lost out on 4 other tenders......)


Further info on the Erieye...(Info comes from World airpower journal)



Â· Range 450 km, limit was set in software by Swedish Air force (Software Controlled)
Â· In demo./test was able to track large high altitude target up to 500km
Â· Station altitude 8000m
Â· Uses NATO STD Mark XII IFF/SSR (Identification Friend/Foe, Secondary Search Radar)
Â· ELINT Task (Track and pulse description recording)
Â· Erieye Uses S-band 3Ghz narrow bean 1 degree, which is harder to jam.
Â· Swedish version has 120 degree each side of aircraft (plus/minus 120 degree, 240 degree) coverage and can track 300 air and 300 sea targets
Â· Brazilian version has 150 degree coverage
Â· Greece Erieye has 360-degree coverage and can track 1000 air and 1000 sea targets (track not search so able to provide all data).
Â· Further growth potential
Â· E2C APS145 can track 2000 (do not know if they add Air and Sea, Source manufacturer)
Â· Australian Wedge tail can track 3000 targets. (Source manufacturer)
Â· Russian A50 Early version detect 300 track 50-60 provide interception for 12-15, source another article)
Â· 3 aircraft are needed for 24 hours 1 patrol, can last up to 30 days.
Â· 2 a/c 75 nm station from base has 99% availability
Â· 4 a/c can provide 2 patrols with 1 on standby all times.
Â· Cost of ErieyeERJ145 ((on Compact a/c like ERJ145) $500/hour.
Â· E2C cost / hour is $2700 Vs E3C $8300
Â· High Altitude standard fighter (5m square RCS) range 350 km, Surface ship 320-350km
Â· Low flying cruise missile in ground clutter (<1m RCS) 150km
Â· ESC (Optional) has 450 km against standard fighter (RCS 5m sq.)
Â· IAI phalcon uses 1Ghz L band transmitter. Needs larger platform, its not complicated design but easy to jam since its bandwidth is 3 times of erieye S-band

Â· All platforms (SAAB 340, ERJ145 etc.) have > 8 hours station time (Design)


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## Contrarian

Key, the Israeli's make some of the BEST EW systems. I think its a folly to say that the Erieye would be able to jam the Phalcon.



> Elta's experience in AESA radars is one of the best in the world. Green Pine, Phalcon, MF STAR, El/M 2052. They have designed ECCM features for all these AESA radars & are pretty well versed in that technology and consequently they also know how to tackle ECCM built into AESA radars. Now sweden also designs radars & ECCM, but its experience and level of achievements with AESA technology doesn't match up with Elta's. You can just compare sale of swedish EW equipment with that of israeli built by Elisra and Elta throughout the world. Even recently Rafael's Digital SHARK jammer won EW contract for a european corvette.
> 
> Elta's ELINT gear has been choosen by Australia for their Wedgetail AWACS. That should tell you how much state of the art their product is.
> -airforce@PDF



Key, since i am not very knowledgeable in this area
Isnt L band far better than S band? And what all bands does the Phalcon use?

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## ahussains

jaman_thakkar said:


> eyrie cannot be compared with phalcons...phalcons r way to advanced than eyries.eyries r suitable for small airforces.phalcons can easily jam the elctronics of eyrie and make it isolate from its ground based radars and PAF aircrafts.then it will be an easy target for IAF fighters.



Very Nice a person is talking on the Web knows every thing about the Phalcons and Erieye and the Peoples who are Running the Entire Nations Airforce and Spending Billions of Dollar in the ****... 

grow up and be realistic .. give some technical data and evidnece to support your comment


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## Interceptor

*Jane Defence weekly

11 April 2007*

A further major development for Saab in 2006 was the full and final go ahead for the sale of the Erieye airborne surveillance system to Pakistan. In what is effectively the formal launch of the Saab 2000 Erieye platform, the SEK8.3 billion order for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) follows several years of negotiation. Systems, which developed the Erieye phased-array radar, the programme is now entirely controlled by Saab. The PAF will acquire six Saab 2000s, each fitted with the Erieye phased-array radar and configured with a number of onboard operatorsâ stations. The company will supply the aircraft, radar and most onboard systems (including the operatorsâ stations) but other mission equipment, such as the âidentification friend or foeâ and communications systems will be largely from commercial off-the-shelf sources.


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## falcone

Does this mean the PAF is going to receive less aircraft? Please elaborate (anyone).

Saab [to] renegotiate Surveillance contract with Pakistan
Saab AB | May 29, 2007

*With reference to the sale of Saab Airborne Surveillance Systems to Pakistan, the customer has for financial reasons and in accordance with the original contract, asked to renegotiate part of the contract concerning a reduction of the number of systems. *Together with Saab terms and conditions then have been agreed, concerning a reduction. Saab and the Government of Pakistan continue as planned with the delivery of the system. 

As a result of the renegotiation, the order value is decreased by approximately SEK 1.35 billion. Income will decrease proportionally to the volume change, but other commercial terms and conditions will remain unchanged. Concerning the fiscal year 2007 there is no impact on turnover or income as a result of the new conditions. 

The Saab Airborne Surveillance System includes Saab 2000 turboprop aircraft equipped with Saab Microwave Systems airborne radar system ERIEYE and associated support equipment.


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## EagleEyes

It was reported a while back that unecessary things will be removed. Thats what it is. Plus, Chinese AWACs has influenced this decision a little bit.


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## Neo

Erieye is basically a close gap purchase, the backbone of future Awacs will be a Sino-Pak JV expected to be ready by 2010-12.


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## EagleEyes

Its not something that can be called a close gap measure. It is a permanent solution with the Chinese AEW&Cs. Also... Erieye is only going to help the joint venture.


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## Neo

Don't get me wrone webby, its a very capable platform that will serve PAF for atleast two decades but its a AEW platform, what we need is an AEW&CS from a friendly and more reliable source.
That is obviously China.


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## falcone

Thank you both for your very timely and enlightening replies.


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## EagleEyes

The money will be used for R&D of the Chinese AEW&Cs. I would like to just give a hint that we spent only in the millions range for the development of the JF-17.. just wonder! We have saved more than that.


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## BATMAN

falcone said:


> Does this mean the PAF is going to receive less aircraft? Please elaborate (anyone).
> 
> Saab [to] renegotiate Surveillance contract with Pakistan
> Saab AB | May 29, 2007.



Perhaps this piece of news help answer your question.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ab-2000-aewc-contract-with-pakistan/index.php


> Sweden Finalizes Saab 2000 AEW&C Contract With Pakistan
> Posted 30-May-2007 10:12
> 
> Saab recently finalized a Skr 8.3 billion (approx. $1.15 billion at then-rate conversion) provisional contract to supply S100B Argus turboprop airborne early warning (AEW&C) systems to Pakistan. According to earlier reports at Pakistani Defence , Pakistan will acquire 14 SAAB 2000 aircraft from Sweden: 7 of these aircraft will be dedicated for the PAF's AEW&C role as Argus aircraft, while the remaining 7 will be acquired by the PIA airline to replace its fleet of 11 aging and largely-grounded Fokker short-haul turboprop aircraft [DID note: the mix now looks like 6 and 6].
> 
> The Saab aircraft beat a number of other competitors, including Bombardier's Dash-8/Q200 and US offers to sell the E-2C Hawkeye system. The Argus AEW&C award also caps a 25-year quest by the Pakistani Air force - but the buy was recently reduced for financial reasons....


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## malik ateeq

daer me read some web radar system that on saab air craft have range 500km+ and track 500 to 1000 target at a time.he had three dircation to track targat.each dircation cover 120 degree.some NATO country millitry person said that radar use on saab very difficult to brack or jam that system with AWAC/AEW&C coz Awac have track range 450 km only. so saab system see frist and counter him before Awac do some thing else.


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## Neo

Saturday, June 02, 2007 

*Pakistan purchases six Swedish aircraft*

LAHORE: After years of haggling and delays caused by political differences, Pakistan has finally closed a deal to obtain six AWACS aircraft from Sweden, reported Strategypage.com on Friday. *The purchased systems is a SAAB 2000 airliner mounting a Swedish Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which consists of thousands of tiny radars that can be independently aimed in different directions. This is similar to the AESA radar used on the American JSTARS aircraft, enabling it to locate vehicles moving on the ground. *Pakistan is getting the six SAAB 2000s with the *Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar* and another SAAB 2000 configured for regular (fifty seats) passenger service for $1 billion. 

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\06\02\story_2-6-2007_pg7_49


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## Interceptor

Neo said:


> Saturday, June 02, 2007
> 
> *Pakistan purchases six Swedish aircraft*
> 
> LAHORE: After years of haggling and delays caused by political differences, Pakistan has finally closed a deal to obtain six AWACS aircraft from Sweden, reported Strategypage.com on Friday. *The purchased systems is a SAAB 2000 airliner mounting a Swedish Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which consists of thousands of tiny radars that can be independently aimed in different directions. This is similar to the AESA radar used on the American JSTARS aircraft, enabling it to locate vehicles moving on the ground. *Pakistan is getting the six SAAB 2000s with the *Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar* and another SAAB 2000 configured for regular (fifty seats) passenger service for $1 billion.
> 
> http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\06\02\story_2-6-2007_pg7_49



Reported from strategypage.com that site bias and weird, they make imaginary reports against Pakistan.


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## EagleEyes

Defence Industry Times is an unreliable source too.


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## ahussains

jaman_thakkar said:


> well what to prove???PHALCON IS THE WORLDS MOST ADVANCED AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING SYSTEM...even more advanced than NATO's E-3 C sentry which uses machanically rotating antenna(rotodome) so let alone eyrie...
> 
> 
> this link will prove that phalcon is the worlds most advanced awacs.(read carefully)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/phalcon.htm



Did u people knows the equipment which is used by the indians are always the best in the World even American and Westrens can not use these things same like the MIG 21 how many indians lost them when they are in the Air ... They are also one of the Best planes india ever equired ?


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## Interceptor

*Jane's Defence Mag, 06 June 2007*


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## Always Neutral

ahussains said:


> Did u people knows the equipment which is used by the indians are always the best in the World even American and Westrens can not use these things same like the MIG 21 how many indians lost them when they are in the Air ... They are also one of the Best planes india ever equired ?



The Phalcons were the same aircrafts that the Chinese wanted and nearly got until Big Brother stepped in. So I guess they must be state of art and better then the swedish ones. No fears in two years the ESM duels will be fought between the AWACS of India and Pakistan without violating air space just like it happened in the Cold war times and the results will slowly trickle down to us here and all of us will know who the winner is ! Good thing about AWAC wars is that they can be fought without countries going to war. I look forward to hear comments of our erudite friends in Pakistan and India who serve on these AWACs in the near future.

Regards


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## Interceptor

WebMaster said:


> The money will be used for R&D of the Chinese AEW&Cs. I would like to just give a hint that we spent only in the millions range for the development of the JF-17.. just wonder! We have saved more than that.



I can back that up, Jane's reported that Pakistan and China are working on a AWACS together another JV I say, this was back in November 2006.


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## ARSENAL6

I usume that the Sino-Pak AWACS will not be bigger than the Beiong version

It will be say 20 meters in length ?

Correct ? or are both China and PAkistan building bigger planes rivaling 747 ?

And speavkin of ACAW what about detecting stealth bombers any news ?


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## Adnan pakistani

Hey ! Thats true that the Phalcon Radar system is a far more superior AWACS System then the Erieye , What i suggest is PAF should go for the even more Advanced American WedgeTail AWACS System which the Americans have made for the Royal Austrailian Airforce .

I think this acquisition would be a big blow for the IAF.


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## Adnan pakistani

The only Solution for the Phalcon is the American Wedgetail ,Its a Far more superior system then the Phalcon . PAF go for the Wedgetail !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Neo

Adnan pakistani said:


> Hey ! Thats true that the Phalcon Radar system is a far more superior AWACS System then the Erieye , What i suggest is PAF should go for the even more Advanced American WedgeTail AWACS System which the Americans have made for the Royal Austrailian Airforce .
> 
> I think this acquisition would be a big blow for the IAF.



Phalcon and Erieye are two different platforms, the former being an AEW&CS and the latter and advanced AEW system.

Phalcon on paper is superior to the Erieye which does not neccessarily mean that IAF will have an overall advantage over PAF in this field. Erieye will be inducted in larger numbers than the Phalcon, i.e. 7:3 and will provide an intensive datalink to PAF. 
Erieye is largely considered as a stop-gap measure that will enable us to improve technology and performence of the future Sino-Pak AEW&CS JV wich currently is under development and should be completed within next five years. This will be a true answer to the Phalcon or any western design.

PAF evaluated US designs, the E-2C Hawkeye was offered by the US but we deliberately declined the offer and selected the Erieye for political reasons.
Only later we would learn about the Sino-Pak JV wich is already in advanced stage of development.


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## Neo

Adnan pakistani said:


> The only Solution for the Phalcon is the American Wedgetail ,Its a Far more superior system then the Phalcon . PAF go for the Wedgetail !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



No, this would not be wise because US weapons will remain a subject to santions and embargoes and we can't afford to ground an expensive platform like the AWACS. China is leaping forward in terms of technology and she's far more reliable source and a true ally.
Lets stick with the current JV.


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## Keysersoze

Neo said:


> Phalcon and Erieye are two different platforms, the former being an AEW&CS and the latter and advanced AEW system.
> 
> Phalcon on paper is superior to the Erieye which does not neccessarily mean that IAF will have an overall advantage over PAF in this field. Erieye will be inducted in larger numbers than the Phalcon, i.e. 7:3 and will provide an intensive datalink to PAF.
> Erieye is largely considered as a stop-gap measure that will enable us to improve technology and performence of the future Sino-Pak AEW&CS JV wich currently is under development and should be completed within next five years. This will be a true answer to the Phalcon or any western design.
> 
> PAF evaluated US designs, the E-2C Hawkeye was offered by the US but we deliberately declined the offer and selected the Erieye for political reasons.
> Only later we would learn about the Sino-Pak JV wich is already in advanced stage of development.



Don't forget the three hawkeye 2000's on the p-3 platform.....those platforms are being inducted as well.


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## ARSENAL6

Here is an example for those who don;t know what a wedge tail AWACs looks like


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## hoodhood1

In this day and age of Jet Aircrafts, PAF are buying Saab 2000, which are twin engine turboprop. These Aircrafts have come to Mid Life point after serving with some commercial airlines in cold climates. There are only 52 such Aircrafts left in the world and are no longer being produced.
PAF should have bought few Emberar 195 with the same system.


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## Bull

Neo said:


> Phalcon on paper is superior to the Erieye which does not neccessarily mean that IAF will have an overall advantage over PAF in this field.
> 
> Erieye will be inducted in larger numbers than the Phalcon, i.e. 7:3 and will provide an intensive datalink to PAF.



You mean for every 3 Phalcons you will have 7 Erieye, well IAF is extending the order from 3 to 6 by this fiscal. So will PAF have 14 AEWs. 14 AEWs for 150 - 250 JF-17, and 96 F-16. 

14 AEW will require a good protection around itself, say for eg if they need 5 - 6 planes around it that takes away 100 planes from the theatre of operation and leaves PAF with just 300 planes to operate against IAF and IN.


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## intruder

Neo said:


> Erieye will be inducted in larger numbers than the Phalcon, i.e. 7:3



Bro, can you please provide us some link for above ..


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## Keysersoze

Bull said:


> You mean for every 3 Phalcons you will have 7 Erieye, well IAF is extending the order from 3 to 6 by this fiscal. So will PAF have 14 AEWs. 14 AEWs for 150 - 250 JF-17, and 96 F-16.
> 
> 14 AEW will require a good protection around itself, say for eg if they need 5 - 6 planes around it that takes away 100 planes from the theatre of operation and leaves PAF with just 300 planes to operate against IAF and IN.



Care to provide a link for the above? I have seen a article saying that the IAF would like another 3 but nothing else.


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## irfan1173

AoA
Didnt we reduce the order for Erieye from 6 to 5? Remember reading it couple of months back or something.


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## Bull

Keysersoze said:


> Care to provide a link for the above? I have seen a article saying that the IAF would like another 3 but nothing else.



Give me some time i shall post.


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## Keysersoze

intruder said:


> Bro, can you please provide us some link for above ..



heres is a link for the Erieye......

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...-aewc-contract-with-pakistan-02377/#more-2377

also here is a link for the Hawkeye 2000's

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2007/Pakistan_07-03.pdf

As to the reduction in numbers it would probably be from 7 to 6......They probably wanna invest more in the Chinese system.


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## Bull

Keysersoze said:


> heres is a link for the Erieye......
> 
> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...-aewc-contract-with-pakistan-02377/#more-2377
> 
> also here is a link for the Hawkeye 2000's
> 
> http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2007/Pakistan_07-03.pdf
> 
> As to the reduction in numbers it would probably be from 7 to 6......They probably wanna invest more in the Chinese system.



I do agree more the merrier, but 14 AEW is an a unwanted nuisance for PAF, isnt it?


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## Keysersoze

Bull said:


> I do agree more the merrier, but 14 AEW is an a unwanted nuisance for PAF, isnt it?



14 AEW's or AWACS would probably mean less time in the air and less maintenance required. It also means in the event of conflict that there would be a more complete coverage.

There is also the issue of integration. The western fighters would require certain systems as would the Chinese.


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## Bull

Keysersoze said:


> 14 AEW's or AWACS would probably mean less time in the air and less maintenance required. It also means in the event of conflict that there would be a more complete coverage.
> 
> There is also the issue of integration. The western fighters would require certain systems as would the Chinese.



less maintance, i dont think so.


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## Keysersoze

Actually you'll find that maintenance cycles are based upon usage. If you use a aircraft less it requires less maintenance (since it is generally done upon usage) So the more platforms you have the less hours each one will have to log, therefore the maintenance will be less.


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## Contrarian

At the end of the day, it will only mean that the mean time b/w maintenance would be a lot more, as the time would be divided between the 14 aircrafts, but in the end, all 14 will have to be undergo maintenance, so it would add up to the same cost. Just the time required b/w maintenance would be far less.Means more assets are readily available for flights.


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## irfan1173

AoA
Transport aircraft like IL-76, SAAB 2000 can go without maintenance for weeks. So in case of conflict which I doubt will last for more than 2 weeks maintenance will not be an issue for PAF and IAF both.


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## Neo

Bull said:


> You mean for every 3 Phalcons you will have 7 Erieye, well IAF is extending the order from 3 to 6 by this fiscal. So will PAF have 14 AEWs. 14 AEWs for 150 - 250 JF-17, and 96 F-16.
> 
> 14 AEW will require a good protection around itself, say for eg if they need 5 - 6 planes around it that takes away 100 planes from the theatre of operation and leaves PAF with just 300 planes to operate against IAF and IN.



No, don't be too analytical mate! 
When I said 7:3 I meant confirmed order. Whenever India buys more we'll talk. You know how long it takes your babu's to induct new platforms.


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## Neo

irfan1173 said:


> AoA
> Didnt we reduce the order for Erieye from 6 to 5? Remember reading it couple of months back or something.



Actually its being brought down from seven to six including one in spare.


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## ahussains

Neo said:


> Actually its being brought down from seven to six including one in spare.



I nerver support to reduce the numbers of Erieye after a very long waiting years we are just near to getting more planes means more trained staff and most effective performance and backups ... Simple ...


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## Keysersoze

Neo said:


> No, don't be too analytical mate!
> When I said 7:3 I meant confirmed order. Whenever India buys more we'll talk. You know how long it takes your babu's to induct new platforms.



So it's 10:3 so far then...........I feel like a Hawkeye 2000 cheerleader here


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## hoodhood1

According to Air International. PAF has now opted for 5 Saab 2000 instead of original 6.


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## Neo

Keysersoze said:


> So it's 10:3 so far then...........I feel like a Hawkeye 2000 cheerleader here



Please post a picture in one of those cute little outfits...


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## Neo

hoodhood1 said:


> According to Air International. PAF has now opted for 5 Saab 2000 instead of original 6.



Thats correct, the original number was 6+1 spare, its been reduced to 5+1 now.


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## solid snake

I think 5 will be enough to cover a country the size of Pakistan. India might want to buy more though.


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## Contrarian

India will most certainly buy more. Its just that the Phalcons are freaking expensive. Erieye is a budget version when compared with Phalcon.


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## hoodhood1

Heard PAF is looking into Chinese AWACS like Y8 (An-12) and A-50 (IL 76) both have revolving radar on top. Electronics can come from Italy or France and even USA.
I think PAF should look into A-50, as it flies faster and being a Russian airframe it's very rugged and needs less turn around time after each mission.


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## Keysersoze

hoodhood1 said:


> Heard PAF is looking into Chinese AWACS like Y8 (An-12) and A-50 (IL 76) both have revolving radar on top. Electronics can come from Italy or France and even USA.
> I think PAF should look into A-50, as it flies faster and being a Russian airframe it's very rugged and needs less turn around time after each mission.



Dude comparatively the A50 is crap. India turned it down as well and they have more chance of getting them than Pak.


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## Contrarian

A-50 is indeed crap. That is the main reason India went for a much more expensive platform, Phalcon. A-50 was initially offered, and Russia did not just want to sell the Il-76 plane to India for the Phalcon to be installed. They wanted to sell the 'Mainstay' itself.

Its damn old technology!


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## hoodhood1

Then I am sure Pakistan and China are cooking something else. A better Cookie.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## fatman17

there are 13 pages of discussion on this issue and frankly have not read them all. pak options in order of deliveryare:

5 Saab erieye systems
3 pc-3 fitted with the hawkeye 2000 systems (5 pc-3 have been allocated according to the EDA data available on DSCA site)
chinese y-8 (?) would be much down the road.


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## blain2

malaymishra123 said:


> A-50 is indeed crap. That is the main reason India went for a much more expensive platform, Phalcon. A-50 was initially offered, and Russia did not just want to sell the Il-76 plane to India for the Phalcon to be installed. They wanted to sell the 'Mainstay' itself.
> 
> Its damn old technology!



I think the reference is to the platform (IL-76 etc.) and not the rotodome technology of A-50 Beriyev as was demonstrated by the Russians in the late 90s. With Pakistan inducting Ukraining IL-76 refuelers, it may make sense for a Chinese AEW solution to be integrated with the same airframe.


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## Keysersoze

blain2 said:


> I think the reference is to the platform (IL-76 etc.) and not the rotodome technology of A-50 Beriyev as was demonstrated by the Russians in the late 90s. With Pakistan inducting Ukraining IL-76 refuelers, it may make sense for a Chinese AEW solution to be integrated with the same airframe.



There has been a problem with Russian delivery of the IL-76 so it is unlikely that the IL-76 will be used. I am not sure about its ability to stay on station for very long. The P-3's for example have the ability to stay on station for 14+ hours. I am not sure if the IL's will be able to maintain station for that long. (However I am not 100% on that if anyone has any other data)


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## ied_blast

well whatever AWACS system PAF goes for .......it must have some defence shield
against "AWACS slayer" KS-172

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## Bull

Well Pakistan, i guess has gone into a AWACs overkill. Why so mnay AWACS to support a 300 odd fighter fleet, while India has just 3 or 5 for its 650 odd fighters with much larger area to cover? Is it that IAF has underdone or PAF overdone itself.


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## su-47

India has only ORDERED 3. i guess we'll be building a few more in india. I dont think 3-5 AWACS can support such a large fleet spread over such a large area.


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## Keysersoze

Bull said:


> Well Pakistan, i guess has gone into a AWACs overkill. Why so mnay AWACS to support a 300 odd fighter fleet, while India has just 3 or 5 for its 650 odd fighters with much larger area to cover? Is it that IAF has underdone or PAF overdone itself.



Well it is known that India is trying to increase the numbers of AWACs via it's indigenous program. 
The two systems that Pak has selected have pro's and cons according tho their operational environments. (The Erieye works better over mountainous terrain and has a AESA radar whilst the Hawkeye works better over water with a longer range). The Chinese systems would be integrated with the Chinese aircraft. 
The numbers being procured will mean less wear and tear on airframes (less time for them to be in the air.) As well 24 hour coverage when required (In war time)


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## Keysersoze

ied_blast said:


> well whatever AWACS system PAF goes for .......it must have some defence shield
> against "AWACS slayer" KS-172




Lol well it does.............

1) First you have to detect the Awacs in the electronic environment. AESA radars can perform severe jamming
2) Then you have to assume that the Awacs won't notice the launch platform.
3)That the inertial guidance would be worth anything against something that moves quite fast.
4)The large size of the missile would render it vulnerable to interception from other missiles.


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## EagleEyes

Bull said:


> Well Pakistan, i guess has gone into a AWACs overkill. Why so mnay AWACS to support a 300 odd fighter fleet, while India has just 3 or 5 for its 650 odd fighters with much larger area to cover? Is it that IAF has underdone or PAF overdone itself.



AWACs and over kill?  

AWACs will provide 24 hours support over the air space, and not even super duper Su-30MKI will dare to enter. This is why we have bought 6, and building more with the Chinese.


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## ied_blast

Keysersoze said:


> Lol well it does.............
> 
> 1) First you have to detect the Awacs in the electronic environment. AESA radars can perform severe jamming
> 2) Then you have to assume that the Awacs won't notice the launch platform.
> 3)That the inertial guidance would be worth anything against something that moves quite fast.
> 4)The large size of the missile would render it vulnerable to interception from other missiles.



questions one by one for ur 4 points

1- AESA radar? from where u will get aesa radar
2- well ks 172 can be launched as far as 400km....i dont think any system whatever
in PAF can detect it.....comment?
3- large? u call it a large .....its a fighter base missile not a space launcher.


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## Bull

WebMaster said:


> AWACs and over kill?
> 
> AWACs will provide 24 hours support over the air space, and not even super duper Su-30MKI will dare to enter. This is why we have bought 6, and building more with the Chinese.



Well i meant why so many?


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## EagleEyes

Bull said:


> Well i meant why so many?



Not all the aircrafts of the PAF will be equipped with AESA hence they need broader coverage and situational awareness to support the infiltration by the Indian Air Force. The number of AWACs Pakistan acquired is fine, we definitely need that many to assure that coverage remains as long as possible. Pakistan will have 300-400 fighters operational which will need coverage. Dont you think six are good now?


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## Bull

WebMaster said:


> Not all the aircrafts of the PAF will be equipped with AESA hence they need broader coverage and situational awareness to support the infiltration by the Indian Air Force.



From where are you getting an AESA radar?



WebMaster said:


> The number of AWACs Pakistan acquired is fine, we definitely need that many to assure that coverage remains as long as possible. Pakistan will have 300-400 fighters operational which will need coverage. Dont you think six are good now?



So IAF would be severly udner equipped with just 3-5 AWACc for >600 fighters.


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## EagleEyes

Bull said:


> From where are you getting an AESA radar?



There are some Europeans contendors currently. (Forgot the exact name) It was french.




> So IAF would be severly udner equipped with just 3-5 AWACc for >600 fighters.



The airforce is probably looking into more. I heard a program is under development for an indeginious AWAC, how much successful it will be. I cant say.  There was also a report that India wants to buy 6 more, but nothing reported later on.


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## Keysersoze

ied_blast said:


> questions one by one for ur 4 points
> 
> 1- AESA radar? from where u will get aesa radar
> 2- well ks 172 can be launched as far as 400km....i dont think any system whatever
> in PAF can detect it.....comment?
> 3- large? u call it a large .....its a fighter base missile not a space launcher.



1) The Erieye is a AESA radar. 

2)The radar range of the Erieye is 450 KM. and 350 in a dense electronic environment. that is long enough to detect the missile or launch platform. Also what radar is there that can lock up a target at 400+KM? It uses inertial guidance which might work for a slow moving or static target. however against a moving target it isn't so great. More of a shoot and hope deal. The range is only a rumour and I am betting the NEZ for the missile is much lower.

3)Size? lol the missile is also rumoured to have a anti-satellite function so yes it is a space launcher and has the size of one.


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## Keysersoze

Bull said:


> From where are you getting an AESA radar?
> 
> 
> 
> So IAF would be severly udner equipped with just 3-5 AWACc for >600 fighters.



As I stated the Erieye is a AESA radar.

I would suggest that 3 (that you have on order) is a small amount. But I think it is fair to say that there will be more. Attrition and maintenance issues would require a few more aircraft.


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## Bull

WebMaster said:


> The airforce is probably looking into more. I heard a program is under development for an indeginious AWAC, how much successful it will be. I cant say.  There was also a report that India wants to buy 6 more, but nothing reported later on.



I think the indegigenous development was terminated after the crash hat killed almost all of the scientists involved.


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## EagleEyes

Bull said:


> I think the indegienous development was terminated after the crash hat killed almost all of the scientists involved.



Sad to hear. I am surprised about the crash. What were the causes? I dont see how early warning systems can be a cause of crash, unless there were major design changes to the aircraft.


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## Keysersoze

Bull said:


> I think the indegigenous development was terminated after the crash hat killed almost all of the scientists involved.



My understanding is that the program was postponed not canceled. I believe it has been revived.


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## Keysersoze

WebMaster said:


> Sad to hear. I am surprised about the crash. What were the causes? I dont see how early warning systems can be a cause of crash, unless there were major design changes to the aircraft.



The crash was caused a few years back when the radome collapsed into the aircraft and it crashed with all hands (including a few scientists)


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## Neo

Keysersoze said:


> The crash was caused a few years back when the radome collapsed into the aircraft and it crashed with all hands (including a few scientists)



Yes, it was the huge, and I mean real huge radome that caused the crash as it collapsed on the fuselage and damaged the airframe.

I believe the awacs bas based on a HS.748 bodyframe.


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## EagleEyes

Keysersoze said:


> The crash was caused a few years back when the radome collapsed into the aircraft and it crashed with all hands (including a few scientists)



Thats interesting. I wonder what kind of protection does AEW&Cs really have as far as being safe from air-to-air missiles. Flares? Jamming Systems? ECM?

What if they do get hit with one of the missiles. Would the damage be significant enough that they will survive? Anything like ejection seat, parachutes possible during this situation.


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## Bull

Keysersoze said:


> The crash was caused a few years back when the radome collapsed into the aircraft and it crashed with all hands (including a few scientists)



I believe it wasnt just few but almost all.

There were reports of it being revived in 2000 and 2003, but nothingmuch is being said after that.


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## Bull

Somethings i found on the net...

_'The Centre for Airborne Systems in Bangalore (CABS) is developing the airborne early warning system which involves a flying platform and mounted sensors like radars to provide battle-management functions._' 

_'CABS is also planning to build a radar system on an imported Embraer executive jet._'

*Thats two types of AWACS under development.*

_' The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) hopes to fly the air force-identified aircraft carrying the indigenously developed Airborne-Early Warning and Control (AEW and C) system by 2008-end, Director of the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), DRDO, Bangalore, K. Tamilmani said here on Thursday.'_

The Hindu : National : Indigenous airborne systems by 2008


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## Keysersoze

Bull said:


> Somethings i found on the net...
> 
> _'The Centre for Airborne Systems in Bangalore (CABS) is developing the airborne early warning system which involves a flying platform and mounted sensors like radars to provide battle-management functions._'
> 
> _'CABS is also planning to build a radar system on an imported Embraer executive jet._'
> 
> *Thats two types of AWACS under development.*
> 
> _' The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) hopes to fly the air force-identified aircraft carrying the indigenously developed Airborne-Early Warning and Control (AEW and C) system by 2008-end, Director of the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), DRDO, Bangalore, K. Tamilmani said here on Thursday.'_
> 
> The Hindu : National : Indigenous airborne systems by 2008



You know DRDO would do well to stop putting dates on their projects....

But yes I believe this is the project that will make up the shortfall in systems. 

However there is only one AWACS mentioned there. The other one sounds like a battlefield surveillance aircraft of some sort.


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## Bull

Keysersoze said:


> You know DRDO would do well to stop putting dates on their projects....
> 
> But yes I believe this is the project that will make up the shortfall in systems.
> 
> However there is only one AWACS mentioned there. The other one sounds like a battlefield surveillance aircraft of some sort.



I took the second one for some sort of an AWACS.

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## Bull

*DRDO seeks partner for early warning and control system programme *

DRDO seeks partner for early warning and control system programme 


Ravi Sharma 


It has initiated pre-proposal talks with some private and public sector companies, including Larsen and Toubro, Tata Power and Bharat Electronics Limited 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Airborne early warning and control system aircraft for IAF

Technical evaluation of Embraer EMB-145 aircraft completed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bangalore: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is looking for a partner in the product maintenance of the three airborne early warning and control system (AEW&CS) aircraft that it is building for the Indian Air Force (IAF). 

The DRDO had initiated pre-proposal talks with some private and public sector companies, including Larsen and Toubro, Tata Power and Bharat Electronics Limited for the eye in the sky project. 

It would like to work out a transparent, internal process for evaluation that could be used to choose a partner. 

A transparent shortlist, with the criteria required to benchmark the contenders, is to be put up shortly. 

Thereafter, a request for proposal will be put out. 

Rs. 1,800-cr. project 

The Rs. 1,800-crore project involves using a flying platform (most likely the Embraer EMB 145) and mounting sensors (radars) that look deep and far, and provide C2BM (command and control, battle management) functions by datalink for both tactical and defence forces. 

While in the AEW&CS the lofted sensors will transmit information to a command and control centre on the ground, in the case of the AWACS (airborne warning and control system) the sensors disseminate information to a command centre that is part of the flying platform itself. 

D. Banerjee, Chief Controller, Research and Development (Aeronautics and Material Science), DRDO, told The Hindu that with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) expressing its unwillingness to join in the project, it was crucial that a partner was chosen at the very beginning itself. 

HAL is basically an aircraft company, while this will involve maintenance of a complicated radar system, software maintenance and its periodic upgrading. 

The question before us is whether to choose an aircraft specialist or a systems (radar) specialist. Whoever it is, it ought to be done quickly, he said. 

At present, a number of DRDO laboratories are involved in various aspects of the AEW&CS programme. The Defence Electronics Application Laboratory is involved with the primary sensors, communication systems and data link; the Defence Avionics Research Establishment with the self-protection systems, electronic warfare suites and communication support systems and the Defence Electronics Research Laboratory with counter-support measures. 

While the radar is from the Defence Avionics Research Establishment, the responsibility for the overall integration of the systems, mission computer, display and data handling will be that of the Bangalore-based Centre for Airborne Systems. 

Primary radar 

Dr. Banerjee said the AEW&CSs primary radar was well on its way: The TR (transmit receive) module is ready. It will shortly be going for acceptance tests. We may also look around for some sort of consultancy for the systems integration.

Running years behind schedule, the AEW&CS programme got an unexpected boost, when the Government, after over two years of bureaucratic delays, sent out a request for proposal to Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer, asking for details on the Embraer EMB-145 aircraft. 

Dr. Banerjee disclosed that the technical evaluation of the EMB-145 was over and that it conformed to the IAFs technical requirements. 

The aircraft has several hours of endurance and in-flight refuelling. 

Long road ahead 

Stressing that it was the IAF and not the DRDO which chose the aircraft, Dr. Banerjee said that in a cost-performance trade-off, the 145 was the cheapest possible option available. Commercial negotiations would get under way in September. 

Dr. Banerjee, however, contended that commercial negotiation was only the beginning of the long road ahead before the AEW&CS could be ready.

Once the radar is mounted on the flying platform, the aircrafts technical specifications, such as its aero dynamism and handling, will change. Embraer will have to get it recertified in the changed configuration. 

There are also bound to be issues such as the mounting of the radar on the EMB 145s fuselage, the aircrafts overall endurance with payload (radar) and a modification of the mounts that will receive the radar. 

The Hindu : National : DRDO seeks partner for early warning and control system programme


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## hoodhood1

I think the pictured AWAC aircraft is HS-748 of IAF. I have done some time on this aircraft, It's quite slow and even being a turbo prop it vibrates a lot. Maybe due to this vibration the Radome collapsed or it was mounted too high.


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## ied_blast

india is working on AESA radar of there own.....for jets & and if things gets in place
then an AWACs
read this
T/R Module Technology

radar parts on display in bangalore airshow






here is the air-frame of AWACs


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## Keysersoze

The EMB 145 is a good platform (The Brazilians use Erieye on their platforms) the only issue would be whether the radar can be produced in time..... 

Running years behind schedule, the AEW&CS programme got an unexpected boost, when the Government, after over two years of bureaucratic delays, sent out a request for proposal to Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer, asking for details on the Embraer EMB-145 aircraft.


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## Keysersoze

To take it back to Pakistani AWACS 

With the Endurance of 9+ and 14+ on the 9/10 platforms being procured and the relative ranges it would allow 24 hour coverage over the vital areas during a wartime situation.


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## Contrarian

For a general update on Indian awacs program. DRDO built the mini awacs type radar for the emb platform, but the IAF has now said that 'circumstances' have changed and they require a full fledged awacs with a bigger platform with very high endurance. In effect they want a Phalcon type system, to which DRDO has responded that it will take time.

IAF in effect changed the ASQR "AGAIN".


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## Contrarian

Yes, you are right. I wonder how you got this smart!!


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## IceCold

malaymishra123 said:


> Yes, you are right. I wonder how you got this smart!!



Lolzzz....why do you even bother to answer that.


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## Contrarian

Couldnt resist.lol. I hope he got the intended sarcasm though, otherwise it was a waste of my energy.


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## Keysersoze

malaymishra123 said:


> For a general update on Indian awacs program. DRDO built the mini awacs type radar for the emb platform, but the IAF has now said that 'circumstances' have changed and they require a full fledged awacs with a bigger platform with very high endurance. In effect they want a Phalcon type system, to which DRDO has responded that it will take time.
> 
> IAF in effect changed the ASQR "AGAIN".



Well it seems they have a habit of allowing feature creep to screw up procurement again. I guess the rumours in regards to a further Phalcon procurement have not reached fruition. I wonder if the shortage of IL-76's have played a part in this?


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## Contrarian

No actually, the govt was banking upon the indegenous AWACS to complement the Phalcons. Now that IAF has rejected the home made AWACS and asked DRDO to make a radar system and fit it in a full fledged platform like a Boeing plane or the Il-76, they have made sure that no indegenous plane comes for another 10 years. This gives them a BRILLIANT excuse to ask for more Phalcons. You see where im going with this?


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## Keysersoze

malaymishra123 said:


> No actually, the govt was banking upon the indegenous AWACS to complement the Phalcons. Now that IAF has rejected the home made AWACS and asked DRDO to make a radar system and fit it in a full fledged platform like a Boeing plane or the Il-76, they have made sure that no indegenous plane comes for another 10 years. This gives them a BRILLIANT excuse to ask for more Phalcons. You see where im going with this?



Well with the "speedy" Indian procurement system I would say it is probably going to take just as long for the additional Phalcons to show up...


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## Contrarian

Nah. I'd say in this case, 5 years for new Phalcons. Things work fast when Israel is concerned, neither is it so publicised.


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## Munir

It took decades to buy Hawk so what makes you think that IAF will get Phalocons faster? IAF is busy with upgrading Mig21, Mig27, Mig29A, Mirage2000... The only big bang was MKI and even that needs to be seen in reality how well it performes against more stealthy agile and optimized SAM, AWACS environment...

The fact that IAF rejected is good for IAF but bad for India. Cash flow, TOT etc... But getting it fast sounds more like a dream then reality.


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## Contrarian

Like i said, youd be surprised at the speed with which India's dealings with Israel takes place. They are not accompanied by the usual pre buy hype that this or that is being bought. Its simply bought then the first details are released. But this is something quite important, if IAF makes noises that there arent enough AWACS, govt will get it ASAP.

In either case, the Phalcon deal is already signed and this would be a follow on order, not a new order(you know the difference-no new tender, negotiations, etc, etc), and by the previous deal, India can buy 3 more Phalcons from Israel.


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## Always Neutral

malaymishra123 said:


> Like i said, youd be surprised at the speed with which India's dealings with Israel takes place. They are not accompanied by the usual pre buy hype that this or that is being bought. Its simply bought then the first details are released. But this is something quite important, if IAF makes noises that there arent enough AWACS, govt will get it ASAP.
> 
> In either case, the Phalcon deal is already signed and this would be a follow on order, not a new order(you know the difference-no new tender, negotiations, etc, etc), and by the previous deal, India can buy 3 more Phalcons from Israel.




You are right but its called REPEAT ORDER not follow on order in most countries. It means within one year of delivery of goods you can place a repeat order without a tender. However India would be prudent to place it only if the Phalcons and Israeli deliver what they promised.


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## Contrarian

That is what i suspect the govt/IAF want to do. See the first Phalcon, use it for a year prolly, then go for the REPEAT ORDER !!


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## Munir

Even if India buys a few more.. Just remember the timeframe... How log ago did they order? I think that we can add some time before IAF receives those planes. And I bet newer versiosn will be newer so the old need to upgrade and people need to be trained etc etc.

Whether you buy new planes or add more into your inventory... It is never fast enough.


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## Contrarian

The first Phalcon will come by the end of 2008.

The timeframe was long in this case because Israel had to mate the Phalcon with the Il-76 instead of their ususal platforms. Then there was the trouble of Russians unwilling to part with codes etc and provide help because they did not approve of this. The Israeli's have done this now, they have experience and the know how to do it. Any repeat orders will take a much lesser time to get those planes Munir sir.


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## Munir

India is a big nation and I don;t see any reason why they are not intrested in more. But the fact is that we need to wait and see how well Phalocons perform. I would be onesided if I did not add that we need to see how the PAF erieye performs cause as far as I know the Greek Embrayer Ericson combi is sitting on the tarmac for three years...

Good for both India and Pak to move beyond the eighties.


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## Munir

I am extremely intrested in how Phalcons will be linked to MRCA/MKI... Anyone? I bet there is something comparable like link16. Thanks in advance.


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## EagleEyes

We must assume that there is. Chinese are building their equivalent. MKI has much of the Isreali, and Indian technology. There is no doubt that proper connection exists.


----------



## Bull

WebMaster said:


> We must assume that there is. Chinese are building their equivalent. MKI has much of the Isreali, and Indian technology. There is no doubt that proper connection exists.



India is buying a coslty system( compared to its peers) so definitly they might have worked out the operatibilty with MKI. Atleast i hope so.


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## Loong

According to estimates, we will set up two early-warning aircraft division


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## ahussains

Thats intresting chiness news and they also have some Y8 and are they deploying any thing news in these divisions


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## z9-ec

I don't know if anyone else posted this before but I found a website which says Pakistan Air Force currently operates Saab 2000. Delivered in 2007 (web.comhem.se)

Your comments?


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## EagleEyes

z9-ec said:


> I don't know if anyone else posted this before but I found a website which says Pakistan Air Force currently operates Saab 2000. Delivered in 2007 (web.comhem.se)
> 
> Your comments?



Saab 2000 is just an aircraft. Erieye on Saab 2000 is the AWAC or AEW&C.


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## fatman17

z9-ec said:


> I don't know if anyone else posted this before but I found a website which says Pakistan Air Force currently operates Saab 2000. Delivered in 2007 (web.comhem.se)
> 
> Your comments?



not true at all!


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## mxiong

Maybe PAF can lease a few KJ-200s with a "Door Crasher" offer?


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## ahussains

WebMaster said:


> Saab 2000 is just an aircraft. Erieye on Saab 2000 is the AWAC or AEW&C.



any idea when the first Saab 2000 having and Erieye come to join the Air force and what is the compatiablity of it with the JF-17


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## blain2

ahussains said:


> any idea when the first Saab 2000 having and Erieye come to join the Air force and what is the compatiablity of it with the JF-17



If I recall correctly, its end of 2008 for the initial Erieye induction (total of 4 airframes). All aircraft including the F-16s and JF-17s would have Data Links to communicate with the AEW platforms.


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## fatman17

blain2 said:


> If I recall correctly, its end of 2008 for the initial Erieye induction (total of 4 airframes). All aircraft including the F-16s and JF-17s would have Data Links to communicate with the AEW platforms.



according to JDW, the 1st example was supposed to be delivered 18 months after signing of contract - that puts it around June-2008.


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## ahussains

fatman17 said:


> according to JDW, the 1st example was supposed to be delivered 18 months after signing of contract - that puts it around June-2008.



It means at the end of this year we have a n AWACS plat form along with the squardron of Jf-17 thats sounds impresive .. and that day will be the land mark day in the history of Pakistan Air Force (Inshallah)


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## hoodhood1

I don't understand why PAF is opting for SAAB 2000, which is a Twin Turbo Prop and much slower. We should have gone for the same Erieye, available in Embraer 170 or 190, which would have been much smaller and faster.


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## ahussains

hoodhood1 said:


> I don't understand why PAF is opting for SAAB 2000, which is a Twin Turbo Prop and much slower. We should have gone for the same Erieye, available in Embraer 170 or 190, which would have been much smaller and faster.



We are searching for such a Plateform from last 20 years at least now we will have this soon, and i think there is also a talk to getting Y-8 AWACS system from China on a co-production bases once we have it we can easily fit to any newr Aircraft Like Boeing 737/727 or AirBus 310/320 or Any other Russians or Chinees Aircraft Like AN-32 or IL76 ..

We will get the IL 76 tanker soon from UKRAINE.


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## hoodhood1

It is not feasible to install antenna on B727 and these a/c's days are over. I think we should look into small twin engine jets
Are we getting IL76 or IL78 as inflight refueling tankers? I believe we are getting four such examples. But the question is that inflight refueling is usually done at 40,000 ft and there is no need for such an a/c as in PK there are quite a few airstrips between point "A" to point "B" where jet "A" or jp4 fuel is available. Yes, if they are needed while ferrying a/c's from China than Two would be enough.


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## echo 1

The IL-76 or 78 will be there for long range missions HOODHOOD1 that is why we are getting them. 

Also maybe in the feature we might carry out air exercises with China or some other country so it would be a good idea to have a tanker around for that porpous.


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## hoodhood1

Echo 1. Which long missions are we talking about? Refueling is done over home country or neutral air space. The speed of all the a/c are brought down between 300~350 Kts and if they loiter else where than they are sitting target of SAM and AAM.


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## fatman17

Planned Erieye roll-out paves way for 2009 delivery

Robert Hewson, Editor of Jane's Air-Launched Weapons

Key Points
&#8226;	Delivery of the first Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C to Pakistan is on track for 2009, says Saab
&#8226;	The Pakistani programme is to be followed by Erieye aircraft for Thailand, while further customers are in prospect

Saab Surveillance Systems intends to roll out the first Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) system for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on 26 March. 
The aircraft continues to be equipped with its full suite of mission systems and will fly later this year. It will serve as the test and evaluation platform for Pakistan's planned fleet of five Saab 2000 Erieyes. 

*The March roll-out will be conducted with customer representatives at Saab's main Link&#246;ping facility, but there will not be a delivery ceremony. With first flight, airborne testing and further development work still to come, Saab says that it is on track to deliver the first aircraft by the end of 2009 in line with its 2007 contract. Prior to the formal handover to the PAF the aircraft is likely to be transferred to Pakistan to conduct systems acceptance testing there. *

*The Saab 2000 AEW&C has been specially developed to a PAF requirement and marks the first time the Erieye active electronically scanned antenna (AESA) radar has been mated with the Saab 2000 airframe.* 

Pakistan's Saab 2000s are former airline aircraft recovered from their leases by Saab and extensively modified for their new military role. Each aircraft will be fitted with operator stations for between five and seven onboard personnel. The Saab 2000 AEW&C can also serve as part of a distributed AEW network by datalinking radar data directly to command-and-control networks on the ground. Pakistan's aircraft will be fitted with electronic surveillance/support systems for additional intelligence gathering and a full set of defensive aids. 

In 2005 Saab and Ericsson announced that Pakistan intended to acquire Saab 2000 Erieye systems and an SEK8.3 billion (USD1 billion) contract was given the go-ahead in July 2006. The number of aircraft involved was never confirmed by the company but Jane's sources noted that it was six. By mid-2006 Saab had full control of the programme with its takeover of Erieye radar builder Ericsson Microwave Systems (now Saab Microwave Systems). 

*In May 2007 a renegotiation of the Pakistan AEW contract was announced, with a budget cut of SEK1.35 billion. As a result, the number of aircraft to be acquired is believed to have been reduced to five. Pakistan's contract includes airborne and ground-based systems plus logistics and product support*. 

Within Saab attention is now turning to the Erieye aircraft for Thailand ordered earlier this year. The Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) plans to acquire two former Swedish Air Force S 100B Erieye aircraft, based on the Saab 340 airframe, beginning in 2011. The RTAF aircraft will be equipped with onboard operator stations allowing them to be used as both autonomous and networked platforms. Saab reported that it is also pursuing continuing interest in the Erieye surveillance system from Malaysia and Saudi Arabia.


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## echo 1

hoodhood1 said:


> Echo 1. Which long missions are we talking about? Refueling is done over home country or neutral air space. The speed of all the a/c are brought down between 300~350 Kts and if they loiter else where than they are sitting target of SAM and AAM.



What about joint exercises in the feature with frendly nations such as china and far away exercises like Red Flag where we might end up taking our own aircrafts aside form the F-16. And as far as SAM and AAM goes usually refueling is done in a midpoint far behind the front lines so that SAMs or AAM are not a problem.


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## baqai

if i am not wrong than i read in this thread about TOT is that going to happen?


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## Myth_buster_1

hoodhood1 said:


> I don't understand why PAF is opting for SAAB 2000, which is a Twin Turbo Prop and much slower. We should have gone for the same Erieye, available in Embraer 170 or 190, which would have been much smaller and faster.



SAAB 2000 is a very good platform for Erieye! the plane is very agile campre to other platforms such as, Il-76, 737, 767 etc.. such jet planes are best for rotodome. PAF chose SAAB 2000 due to cost effective maintenance.
but i think PAF should have really opted for Embraer ERJ 145, which is as fast as any other AWAC platforms with better agility and yet smaller radar cross section.


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## Myth_buster_1

echo 1 said:


> What about joint exercises in the feature with frendly nations such as china and far away exercises like Red Flag where we might end up taking our own aircrafts aside form the F-16. And as far as SAM and AAM goes usually refueling is done in a midpoint far behind the front lines so that SAMs or AAM are not a problem.



Pakistan is getting this technology under strict agreements due to EU sanctions imposed to China. which is of course not to let Chinese get close to it, let alone a joint exercise.


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## asaad-ul-islam

i also heard ToT will be thrown in with the deal, can anyone shed some light on this issue?


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## blain2

hoodhood1 said:


> I don't understand why PAF is opting for SAAB 2000, which is a Twin Turbo Prop and much slower. We should have gone for the same Erieye, available in Embraer 170 or 190, which would have been much smaller and faster.



The Saab 2000 is one of the fastest turboprops with a max speed of approx. 600 km hour. Secondly, PAF evaluated all the platforms and found the endurance of the Saab 2000 to be the best for an AEW platform (10 hours plus).

Small was not what PAF was going for. Prior to the PAF Erieyes, this AEW platform did not have on board operators. In order to accommodate 6 consoles, 
PAF needed a decent size platform thus the Saab 2000. The onboard operator idea was liked by the Swedish AF as well and their platforms will be retroactively upgraded like the Pakistani ones. In the past the Erieye used to pass the entire picture in the air to stations (GCI) on the ground and they used to pass on intercept information to the aircraft, now the Erieye will do this autonomously and in conjunction with other Erieyes and aircraft with DLs in the air giving much much better SA to the PAF.


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## Proud to be Pakistani

*Saab 2000*
Max cruising speed 682km/h (368kt) at 25,000ft, long range cruising speed 594km/h (321kt). Initial rate of climb 2250ft/min. Service ceiling 31,000ft. High speed range with 50 passengers and reserves 2185km (1180nm), range at long range cruising speed 2868km (1549nm).

*Embraer ERJ-145 *
High speed cruising speed 833km/h (450kt). Service ceiling 37,000ft. 
ERJ-145ER - Range with 50 passengers at long range cruising speed 2445km (1320nm).
ERJ-145LR - Range with 50 passengers at long range cruising speed 2870km (1550nm).


*As per the specs Embraer is a better one!*


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## Proud to be Pakistani

Blain2,

*I agree with you that the choice of Turbo Prop was a good choice and Saab 2000 Platform Suits our requirements.*


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## blain2

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> *As per the specs Embraer is a better one!*



P2BP,

Speed and altitude are one thing, fuel consumption is another (even if you IFR the two platforms being discussed above), the Embraer would be a more costly proposition. 630 km vs 850 km? If you need speed to get away from trouble (like fighter aircraft) neither of those is fast enough. But the AEW platforms come pretty heavily equipped with jamming and EW suites so they can interrupt the ingressing attack considerably.


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## Keysersoze

Hmm does anyone have a endurance for the Phalcon?

The figures for the saab 2000 and the Orion AWACS/AEW&C is 10 and 14 hours respectively.

The only figure I could get was for the similar A-50 which uses the same airframe.- 7 hours forty minutes.


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## JK!

Keysersoze said:


> Hmm does anyone have a endurance for the Phalcon?
> 
> The figures for the saab 2000 and the Orion AWACS/AEW&C is 10 and 14 hours respectively.
> 
> The only figure I could get was for the similar A-50 which uses the same airframe.- 7 hours forty minutes.



Well Israeli Weapons states that the Phalcon radar for India will be mounted on an IL76 which is the same platform as the Chinese KJ2000 and the Beriev A50 so 7 hours 40 minutes is also the only figure I could find.

I'm guessing its due to a heavier platform being used.


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## blain2

JK! said:


> Well Israeli Weapons states that the Phalcon radar for India will be mounted on an IL76 which is the same platform as the Chinese KJ2000 and the Beriev A50 so 7 hours 40 minutes is also the only figure I could find.
> 
> I'm guessing its due to a heavier platform being used.


This is true, the actual endurance is better on the Saab 2000 than the Russian platform that the Indians are going for. However Phalcon is a very capable 
OTH Radar.


----------



## Keysersoze

blain2 said:


> This is true, the actual endurance is better on the Saab 2000 than the Russian platform that the Indians are going for. However Phalcon is a very capable
> OTH Radar.



True Blain. But it is a factor that should always be taken into consideration. For example, with the current numbers of phalcons on order it would leave a shortfall of approximately 3 or 4 hours in coverage. (depending on the distance to and from the home base)
With the greater endurance you have a 24 hour coverage over a larger area.


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## IceCold

Keysersoze said:


> True Blain. But it is a factor that should always be taken into consideration. For example, with the current numbers of phalcons on order it would leave a shortfall of approximately 3 or 4 hours in coverage. (depending on the distance to and from the home base)
> With the greater endurance you have a 24 hour coverage over a larger area.



This means that if we look at both the packages as a whole i.e saab and phalcons, Saab turns out to be better as with longer endurance we can have coverage over a larger area as compared to indian phalcon, not to mention that because pakistan lacks depths, 24hrs surveillance could be achieved with limited input as compared to india.


----------



## blain2

Keysersoze said:


> True Blain. But it is a factor that should always be taken into consideration. For example, with the current numbers of phalcons on order it would leave a shortfall of approximately 3 or 4 hours in coverage. (depending on the distance to and from the home base)
> With the greater endurance you have a 24 hour coverage over a larger area.



True however why assume that IAF will only stop at the existing number (3) of Phalcons? I am pretty sure there will be follow-on orders. Secondly, with IFR, I am sure the number of hours in the air increases.


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## irfan1173

AoA
Indian IL-76 for phalcons also have different engines than the previous in their inventory.
Not sure if it ends in more hours in air.


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## Keysersoze

blain2 said:


> True however why assume that IAF will only stop at the existing number (3) of Phalcons? I am pretty sure there will be follow-on orders. Secondly, with IFR, I am sure the number of hours in the air increases.



You are right of course....

However with the nature of South Asian defence procurements I always look at what's definitely there. 



Even with IFR it would require the aircraft to move to a notional "safe zone" to refuel. (removing it from station for a period of time)

Also the issue of IFR with the IL-76 platform was regarded as being difficult Due to aerodynamic issues with with the radome.

"The A-50 was fitted with an inflight refueling probe, but reports indicate that the interaction of the slipstream of a tanker with the A-50's radome created such nasty buffeting that inflight refueling was difficult and demanded special pilot qualification."

The Ilyushin Il-76


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

You guys know that once these air sentrys are up in the air and working in tandem with the air force---the air, ground and naval warfare is going to change drastically. Just the outlook and approach of the combined armed forces is going to be different. Within a period of 5 years, nothing in the joint forces will be the same operations wise---as a matter of fact, within the next 5 years---the awacs will rule---the command and control system will be dominated by the air wing---it will not be a surprise any more if a general ranking officer of the army, navy and air force be directing the troop, man and machine movement.

For a reason, a long time ago, I had stated here that pakistan should have accepted the first package that the u s was giving to pakistan of the hawkeye e2c in the 80's.


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## BATMAN

The PAF and the Saab 2000 

By Ali Abbas Rizvi 
4/18/2008 


> In the early Eighties, Soviet air intrusion into Pakistan airspace dramatically increased. In 1986, hostile helicopter-gunships entered Pakistan and flew over the town of Parachinar for half an hour, strafing targets at will. Pakistan turned to the United States and sought help, including E-3A Sentry AWACS, to thwart the Soviet designs. However, the Americans did not oblige the Pakistanis, though they offered a much downgraded E-2C Hawkeyes, a bid that was rejected. Nevertheless, the US airlifted Sidewinder air-to-air missiles
> 
> (AAMs) from NATO's reserved stocks and provided it to the PAF. The first PAF pilot who, despite strict rules of engagement, downed enemy aircraft in Pakistani territory was Squadron Leader Qadri, who rose to the rank of air commodore and was later tragically killed in an air crash as base commander of Minhas (Kamra).
> 
> Since then, advanced early warning and control (AEW&C) systems have been in the radar sights of the Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> There are three types of early-warning systems in the market. The first is called airborne early warning (AEW), which is rather outdated. The second is the airborne early warning and control system (AEW&C), which receives orders from the ground or from AWACS, the third and most advanced system.
> 
> The need for airborne early-warning increased manifold during the Nineties when the Americans stopped the supply of F-16Cs to the PAF under the Pressler Amendment. The PAF got into trouble while its traditional adversary, the Indian Air Force, bought one advanced weapon system after another. All the PAF could do was to watch and upgrade its Mirage IIIs and Vs, while it also bought F-7s and second-hand Mirage IIIs.
> 
> Now, luckily for the service, things are improving. It is in the process of getting more F-16s, has co-manufactured the JF-17 and, on the top of it, will soon receive its first AEW&C, the Saab 2000 turboprop ERIEYE aircraft.
> 
> In June 2006, the PAF had signed a deal for the supply of six Saab 2000s.
> 
> However, because of shortage of funds, the number of aircraft was revised to five. The first of the five such aircraft was rolled out on April 4, 2007, in Sweden and was being equipped with a full suite of mission systems, including radars and avionics. It will join the first PAF AEW&C squadron next year.
> 
> The ERIEYE, developed by the Ericsson Microwave Systems, comprises fixed, dual-sided and electronically scanned phased-array pulse-Doppler radar mounted on top of the fuselage. The ERIEYE uses a shorter-range but much more compact and advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) system. On the other hand, the Pakistan Navy has opted for the E-2C Hawkeye radar mounted on P3C Orion aircraft, which are based on the Passive Electronically Scanned Array (PESA) system.
> 
> In August 2006, it had been reported that a prototype Y-8 Chinese AWACS, whose project was started after Beijing failed to get the Israeli Phalcon system in 2000, was in Pakistan, giving operational demos at the Chaklala airbase. The development was not surprising as Pakistan was also working on a project to jointly develop Sino-Pakistani AWACS.
> 
> The Saab AEW&C will provide the PAF with certain major advantages.
> 
> First, the Saabs, which have a ceiling of 31,000 feet, will be able to detect all aircraft taking off and landing at Indian airbases near the border. Apparently, they can also identify the kind of aircraft that have taken off and whether they are equipped with missiles and drop tanks, their altitudes and the direction in which they are headed. The radar capabilities and range of the Saabs are, of course, confidential, though it is expected that they may have a range of 350 kilometres and beyond. This will allow them to provide early warning in case of pre-emptive attacks from across the border. Second, these aircraft will coordinate with PAF aircraft flying at the same time from several air bases. The AEW&C system will track them and coordinate their movement.
> 
> Third, the Saab will allow Pakistani fighter aircraft to fly without operating their own radars and, thereby, making it difficult for unfriendly forces to track them. In case of hostilities, the Saabs would serve as force multipliers.
> 
> Fourth, the Saab AEW&C will coordinate with the army in missions for Cobra gunships that regularly take on extremist elements on the Pakistani-Afghan border besides airlifting operations.
> 
> Fifth, the AEW&C will be able to check air violations by enemy aircraft and launching of missiles within its range. Also, it can apparently track communications on the ground, troops movement, radars, missile sites and movement of ships.
> However, at the same time, operation of an AEW&C system, like the Saab 2000, is not exactly a piece of cake for the service. As it is, AEW&C is a precious asset for any air force, especially the cash-starved PAF, and as such, it has to be well-guarded both at the ground and in the air. Accordingly, it has to fly in the company of several advanced interceptor aircraft that can take on any adversary.
> 
> But another threat that AWACS would face would be from surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) and beyond-visual-range BVR missiles, which can be fired from across the border. Nevertheless, with two Rolls Royce AE 2100 engines, Saab 2000 remains one of the fastest turboprop aircraft in the world, achieving a cruise speed of 665 km/h (360 kt), though with a mounted antenna on its top, this speed may not be possible.
> 
> Yet another issue is that enemy forces could try to jam the equipment on board the Saab 2000. Therefore, the AEW&C will have to have on board jamming-resistant system with strong electronic countermeasures. Because the ERIEYE is an extremely fast scan radar, it would strongly resist electronic countermeasures.
> 
> Also, the Saab 2000 has to have long endurance and be able to stay at its station. For example, the E-3A Sentry, the most advanced AWACS in the world, has endurance of up to eight hours. While the PAF has been also trying to procure tanker aircraft, it is not known if the Saab turboprop would have refuelling capability. Nevertheless, the manufacturers claim that "the Saab 2000 aircraft is able to incorporate high-speed dash with low-speed loitering capability, with inherent fuel efficiency that meets demanding AEW&C requirements for performing a 180-degree turn in less than 30 seconds with an endurance of more than 9 hours."
> 
> Meanwhile, the Indians will be getting this year the first of the three Israeli Phalcon systems as part of a $1.1 billion deal signed in 2003. The Phalcon system is to be mounted on Russian Il-76 aircraft which the IAF has sourced from Uzbekistan. The Il-76 aircraft, with in-flight refuelling, can stay at their stations up to 14 hours. Earlier, the Russians had offered the Indian Air Force Beriev A-50 Mainstay AEW aircraft, dispatching two of them to India in April 2000. However, the deal fell through. The Indians have revived their indigenous AEW system that had suffered a setback in 1999 when the HS-748 platform crashed, killing the crew and five top scientists.
> 
> The introduction of Saab 2000 ERIEYE would introduce a new dimension to PAF's defensive capabilities, providing it with a top-of-the-line platform to deal with modern-day threats.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## blain2

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ye-buyers.html




DATE:30/04/08
SOURCE:Flight International
Saab scans AEW market for new Erieye buyers
By Craig Hoyle

Saab has identified 30 potential new customers for its Erieye airborne early warning and control system within the next 10 years, and is stepping up efforts to promote its new Saab 2000 configuration, which will make its first flight within weeks for the Pakistan air force.

"Every country that's interested in AEW is a possibility for us," says Saab Microwave Systems' Saab 2000 AEW&C project manager Joakim Andersson, who declines to name specific candidates. The company has also previously succeeded in selling Embraer EMB-145- and Saab 340-based Erieye systems to Brazil, Greece, Mexico, Sweden and Thailand, and "expects a hit rate of about 50%" from its new campaigns, says vice-president surveillance systems Lars Karlén.

Believed to be Pakistan's first of five Erieye systems, the Saab 2000-based surveillance aircraft is currently undergoing ground testing in Linköping, where Islamabad's second example is also now in teardown. This pre-modification refurbishment programme will deliver an aircraft "more or less as new", says Andersson.


© Saab


Pakistan's aircraft has five on-board operator stations, versus three on modified EMB-145s and Sweden's two upgraded Saab 340s, a service ceiling of over 30,000ft (9,150m) and a mission endurance approaching 10h. The type also features enhanced engines, new generators, additional cooling for on-board mission equipment and a *Saab HES-21 electronic warfare suite comprising laser, radar and missile approach warners and countermeasures dispensers.*

*The aircraft's fuselage has been strengthened to carry the Erieye radar, while its vertical tail has been extended to compensate for the payload, which provides 150e_SDgr coverage to each side of its conformal array. The Saab 2000's outer wing has also been strengthened to accommodate EW and signals intelligence sensors, and for the possible carriage of a towed radar decoy.*

*Saab says the use of new-generation radar transmit/receive modules with 60% higher output have increased the AEW range of the Erieye design, which can also now detect hovering helicopters and track small naval targets to a range of 350km (190nm).
*

© Saab


The global fleet of Saab 2000s now totals 58 airframes. Around 20 of these are owned by the Swedish manufacturer's aircraft leasing unit, which says the type has a projected operating life of at least 75,000 flight hours. "We have sufficient aircraft for a lot of different customers," says Andersson, adding: "Given typical utilisation, they are due to operate for the next 35 to 40 years."


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## MastanKhan

Batman,

The PAF made another error in judgement when they at first refused the hawkeye and then the A 10. If the hawkeye were purchased at that time, PAF would have had 20 plus years of awac experience under its belt. If the A 10's would have been accepted, pakistan woul;d have had a deicated ground attack aircraft as well---after the recieving the batch the pakistanis could have stated---this plane is no match against the russians----give us something else---like the F 16's---but no---PAF wants the best. In the end the PAF found out that the hawkeye was not a bad plane and nioether was the A10.

So, how bad is it for the PAF----just imagine after 24 years---we are still arguing about that old purchase.


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## Neo

Sir,

IIRC the Hawkeye was being offered with strings attached, i.e. termination of our nuclear programme.
Earlier in seventies US had tried to persuade us to do the same while offering 110 F/A-7 free of charge.


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## MastanKhan

Neo,

You are right, but then Zia was a master tactician when it came to dealing with the americans----he got the F 16's didn't he.

Sameway---clinton supposedly offered the F 16's to Nawaz not to go the N way.


----------



## Neo

Sir,

I agree Zia's was a better tactician than any other General we've had but I doubt US would have given the state of art technology, AEW&CS without getting the benefits. 

AEW&CS then was what stealth is now, only few countries have access to this technology. Anwal-ul-Sa'adat was awarded the Hawkeye after reaching a breakthru with Begin in 1979. Pakistan would have to compromise the nuclear programme, there was nothing US wanted more from us.

The F-16's or A-10's is a different story, it came with the $3.2 billion aid package we got in 1980 to support Jihad against USSR.


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## blain2

MastanKhan said:


> Neo,
> 
> You are right, but then Zia was a master tactician when it came to dealing with the americans----he got the F 16's didn't he.
> 
> Sameway---clinton supposedly offered the F 16's to Nawaz not to go the N way.



It was not Zia's tactics, rather the need for the US to finance Pakistan to impede the Soviet expansion. Had Zia been in any other times, (if you recall the "peanuts" episode), Americans would not have been so forthcoming.

Secondly, hindsight is always 20/20. Instead of spending money on the F-16s, what if we had invested $150 million into a joint collaboration with the Chinese on a 3rd generation platform? I guess the point being made is PAF did what it thought was the best...had we purchased the A-10s, what could we have possibly used them for? The Russians were buzzing our airspace which required high performance interceptors to deter them...so I think PAF made a good call going for the F-16s. As far as embargo is concerned, we would have suffered just the same under sanctions if we had Hawkeyes and A-10s.

The problem is not PAF's planning. Its the inability of our government to put Pakistani-American relations on a different track which is mutually beneficial and multi-faceted. Usually we are left high and dry after each spell because we cannot align our long term interests with those of the US. I am done blaming the other side. Pakistan should watch out for herself first...once this starts happening, all of the PAF acquisions decisions will also start bearing fruit.


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## IceCold

MastanKhan said:


> Sameway---clinton supposedly offered the F 16's to Nawaz not to go the N way.



Sir if i recall it correctly, the two squardons of the F-18 were offered to pakistan against not testing the nuclear device and i was always of an opinion that if we have had played smart, we could have convinced the americans to give us the F-18 super hornet and we will not test the device.


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## fatman17

I think Musharraf has done a much better job in dealing with the americans under more complex international relations. the 80s was a clear-cut cold war scenario. if you also compare the hardware received then and now, you will see a vast difference.


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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> I think Musharraf has done a much better job in dealing with the americans under more complex international relations. the 80s was a clear-cut cold war scenario. if you also compare the hardware received then and now, you will see a vast difference.



I second that. In Musharraf's era pakistan has become conventionally more stronger then we ever were and he did handled the americans the way, none of todays leaders could do.


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## MastanKhan

Hi Blain-Neo,

My reasoning to get the A 10's was to get a ground attack aircraft---once the aircarft is available, we could always complain that it is not doing the job---that is there is no match between the a10 and the russian intruders flying in---give us something else---a more potent weapon---to me, this is a stair step approach in getting what we want.

We always say that hindsight is 20/20----not all the time---even in hindsight we more often make bad decisions than not---the reason being that we have not learnt to create a department or agency or a think tank, whose job is only to analyse any past decisions to overcome future mistakes---rather minimize a chance of future mistakes and errors---we know very well that we have wrangled the neccessary equipment fromt the usa one way or the other over the years---.

We often use the peanuts aid issue at times----when I was in pakistan, I was of the same view----but since then 25 years have passed and many a years ago I learnt that never to look a gift horse in the mouth and take whatever aid is coming and once you get it---say thanks and tell them that it is not enough to do the job right, we need more---we need to learn to do what israel does---thankyou for your help---it is good but not enough---help us help you by giving us more aid. At national level an insult cannot be made and taken as personal---the bottomline is what is good for the country.

Blain, my thinking is that in the 80's we didnot have enough refinement and niether the chinese had the technology to come up with a better plane. We played our hand according to the situation---with the demise of Zia---the inability of the mujahideen to form a govt in afghanistan, the mujahideen dropping the U S alliance and going onto favour Saddam in iraq, the berlin wall coming down, the internal vaccuum created in pakistani politics---there were too many things going on against pakistan, at the same time---.


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## blain2

Mastan,

The problem with Pakistan is the aid in itself. For as long as we rely on aid, its going to come with strings attached, with limitations and conditions. The fact that our useless politicians can never think about the country first because their fat ***** are not fat enough is the reason Pakistan remains mired in this "kashkol" BS. More later.


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## ejaz007

Yes I believe the problem is the aid. We have always relied on aid rather than building economic relationship. We should drop the idea of aid and go for economic partnership. More access for our products and some sort of trade benefits.
As far as Zia or Musharaf are concerned I doub't they did what was best for the Pakistan. Simply because they were dictators made their negotiating position weak. They both had occupied the post rather than elected and needed recognition. In return for recognition they compromised Pakistan's interests. If you thoroughly look at the situation the country was in just before Zia or Musharaf took power and the situation country was or is when Zia departed or Musharaf might depart you should realize the country was in more problematic situation than the one it was when these people came to power. What ever I have been able to understand is that every general destroyed more and built less whether it be economy, international relations or Pakistan's interest we lost more and gained little.
So bottom line is generals should be resisted in whatever form one can to restraint them from taking power.


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## fatman17

ejaz007 said:


> Yes I believe the problem is the aid. We have always relied on aid rather than building economic relationship. We should drop the idea of aid and go for economic partnership. More access for our products and some sort of trade benefits.
> As far as Zia or Musharaf are concerned I doub't they did what was best for the Pakistan. Simply because they were dictators made their negotiating position weak. They both had occupied the post rather than elected and needed recognition. In return for recognition they compromised Pakistan's interests. If you thoroughly look at the situation the country was in just before Zia or Musharaf took power and the situation country was or is when Zia departed or Musharaf might depart you should realize the country was in more problematic situation than the one it was when these people came to power. What ever I have been able to understand is that every general destroyed more and built less whether it be economy, international relations or Pakistan's interest we lost more and gained little.
> So bottom line is generals should be resisted in whatever form one can to restraint them from taking power.



who will resist them (generals) from taking over - they are always welcomed as saviours of the nation - sweets are distributed and vice-versa when civilian rule takes over - we r a fickle lot what!


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## fatman17

SinoDefence.com - Leading online source of information on China's military power

"Gaoxin Project" - Y-8 Electronic Warfare Aircraft

Last updated: 2 May 2008

Y-8

Shaanxi Aircraft Industry (Group) Co. has been developing a range of special purposes aircraft based on its Y-8 turboprop transport platform since the late 1990s. The development programme, known as &#8220;Gaoxin Project&#8221; (Gaoxin = &#8220;High & New&#8221, consists of at least seven variants for airborne early warning and control (AEW&C), electronic warfare (EW), electronic intelligence (ELINT), and communication relay roles. The main contractor of the electronic systems onboard these aircraft is the China Electronic Technology Group Corporation (CETC).

Y-8 EW/ELINT ("Gaoxin 1")


"Gaoxin 1" Y-8 electronic intelligence aircraft

The &#8220;Gaoxin 1&#8221; project is an electronic warfare (EW) and electronic intelligence (ELINT) aircraft based on the Y-8C airframe. The aircraft features a large canoe-shape radome under the forward fuselage, possibly housing a phased array radar or ECM antenna. The aircraft retained the glass-in nose of the Y-8C, but had the rear loading ramp removed and replaced by an array of electronic equipment antennas. More antennas can be found under the fuselage between the main landing gears. At least two examples (&#8220;21011&#8221; and &#8220;21013&#8221 have been identified in service with the Nanjing Military Region Air Force (MRAF).

Y-8 SIGINT ("Gaoxin 2")

"Gaoxin 2" Y-8 signals intelligence aircraft

The &#8220;Gaoxin 2&#8221; project is a signals intelligence (SIGINT) aircraft based on the Y-8C platform, equipped with an extensive array of sophisticated equipment to monitor enemy electronic activities. The aircraft features a large under-chin radome and a large semi-spherical radome on top of the fuselage before the vertical tailfin, both of which could be used to house electronic equipment antennas. The aircraft also has a number of smaller radomes and electronic antennas attached to its fuselage.

The PLA Naval Aviation Corps currently deploys a small number of the aircraft. The first example carrying serial number &#8216;9351&#8217; was first spotted in operational service with the PLA Naval Aviation 1st Independent Regiment from its base in Laiyang Naval Air Station, Shangdong Province in Summer 2004. A second example was later identified serving with another naval aviation independent regiment at an unknown location. The aircraft has also been spotted flying near the Japanese coast since 2006.

Y-8 Communication Relay ("Gaoxin 3")

"Gaoxin 3" Y-8 communication relay aircraft

The &#8220;Gaoxin 3&#8221; project is a communication relay aircraft designed to facilitate air/ground communications in the battlefield. The aircraft serves as a communication node in an integrated C3I network to connect the ground forces commanders with combat aircraft during a joint services operation. The aircraft features a large semi-spherical radome located on the back of the fuselage, which possibly houses a satellite communication (SATCOM) antenna, as well as a number of electronic antennas attached to the fuselage.

YG-8 Electronic Warfare ("Gaoxin 4")

"Gaoxin 4" K/JYG-8 electronic warfare aircraft

The &#8220;Gaoxin 4&#8221; project is an electronic warfare aircraft designed for standoff electronic countermeasures (ECM) missions. The aircraft features two large cheek fairings, a smaller fairing on top of the vertical tailfin, and a cylinder-shape fairing under the fuselage. There are also a number of electronic antennas attached to the fuselage. An ECM suite onboard the aircraft could jam enemy radar and communications over a long distance, so that the aircraft does not have to enter the range enemy&#8217;s air defence.

The aircraft is known as YG-8 or K/JYG-8 in its military designation. So far only example has been identified in service with the PLAAF, carrying a registration number &#8220;21015&#8221;. The aircraft will replace the obsolete HD-5 EW/ECM aircraft based on the H-5 (IL-28) platform.

KJ-200 AEW&C ("Gaoxin 5")

"Gaoxin 5" KJ-200 airborne early warning aircraft

The &#8220;Gaoxin 5&#8221; project is an airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft equipped with a linear-shape active electronically steered array (AESA) radar similar to the Swedish Ericsson PS-890 Erieye. The development programme possibly began in the late 1990s, with a prototype based on the Y-8F200 airframe first flying in November 2001. A second prototype based on the newer Y-8F600 airframe first flew in January 2005, but was lost during an air crash on 4 June 2006.

In October 2004, a Y-8F200 turboprop transport aircraft was spotted undergoing modification to be fitted with a linear-shape ESA-type airborne early warning radar at Shaanxi. Later it was revealed that the AEW&C aircraft programme had been in development since the late 1990s, in parallel with the KJ-2000/A-50I AWACS development project at Xi&#8217;an Aircraft Corporation (XAC). With the larger, more sophisticated KJ-2000 performing long-range, comprehensive aerial patrolling and control roles, the smaller KJ-200/Y-8 AEW can provide a less expensive platform for tactical AEW and electronic intelligence roles.

The KJ-200 AEW system is based on the Y-8F600 platform, which is also known as &#8220;Category-III Platform&#8221;. (The Category-I and -II platforms refer to the non-pressurised basic variant Y-8 and pressurised Y-8C respectively) The aircraft is fitted with Western avionics for improved performance. The development of the airframe has been carried out jointly by Shaanxi Aircraft Industry (Group) Co. and the Antonov Design Bureau of Ukraine. Improvements on Y-8F600 include:

A two-man cockpit fitted with modernised avionics including U.S. Honeywell navigation system 
Removal of the &#8216;glass-in&#8217; nose to provide additional space for mission equipment 
Four Pratt and Whitney Canada PW150B turboprop engines with British Dodi R-408 six-blade propellers 
Increased take-off weight and range 
Mission equipment pods on wingtips, vertical fin tip and nose 
Chinese state-run Xinhua News Agency reported on Sunday 4 June 2006 that a military plane carrying 40 people was lost in the eastern province of Anhui and no survivor was found. The accident happened at about 16:00 Beijing Time (08:00 GMT) on Saturday near the village of Yaocun, in Guangde county. The plane's body hit bamboo forest and its tail fell in fields. Chinese president Hu Jintao has expressed deep condolences over the loss of lives and ordered a full investigation into the cause of the accident.

Although the report did not reveal the detailed model of the plane or the identities of the people onboard, it was later revealed that the plane was in fact the only example of the Y-8F600-based KJ-200 AEW&C aircraft. The aircraft was undergoing system testing when the accident happened. The 40 personnel onboard were from the PLAAF and Nanjing-based 14th Electronic Institute, which was responsible for the development of the ESA radar and avionics systems. The accident also caused a major setback in the KJ-200/&#8221;Gaoxin 5&#8221; project due to the lost of test data and key personnel involved in the project.

Anti-Submarine Warfare ("Gaoxin 6")

The &#8220;Gaoxin 6&#8221; project was said to be an anti-submarine warfare aircraft. No further detail is available on this design at the moment.

Y-8 EW/ECM ("Gaoxin 7 ")

"Gaoxin 7" Y-8 EW/ECM aircraft

A new member of the &#8220;Gaoxin Project&#8221; series aircraft, reportedly designated &#8220;Gaoxin 7&#8221;, was first spotted operational the PLAAF in April 2008. The aircraft features two large plate antenna arrays on each side of the rear fuselage, a pair of electronic antennas attached on the vertical tail fin, and two large radomes located in front of the landing gear compartments housing additional electronic equipments. The exact role of the aircraft is unknown.


----------



## ejaz007

Fatman 17,
I do not blame people of Pakistan for the response they give when generals take over. Army has been telling the nation since 1947 that they are the only saviours of the nation. However now people have started realizing that this is not the case. Sooner or later they will resist the generals from taking over power.
Bangladesh is a good example. Dictator after dictator came but when people realized that they are not the solution but the problem and took to the streets Bangladesh has not seen any military takeover. They do exert influence but from behind the scene.
Regards,


----------



## fatman17

ejaz007 said:


> Fatman 17,
> I do not blame people of Pakistan for the response they give when generals take over. Army has been telling the nation since 1947 that they are the only saviours of the nation. However now people have started realizing that this is not the case. Sooner or later they will resist the generals from taking over power.
> Bangladesh is a good example. Dictator after dictator came but when people realized that they are not the solution but the problem and took to the streets Bangladesh has not seen any military takeover. They do exert influence but from behind the scene.
> Regards,



iron fist in a silk glove - overt or covert it dosnt make any difference!however. i have always campaigned for the army to play its constitutional role on this forum. the common man is too busy with his own personal problems and dosnt have time to come out on the streets in revolt.


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## Janbaz

ejaz007 said:


> Fatman 17,
> I do not blame people of Pakistan for the response they give when generals take over. Army has been telling the nation since 1947 that they are the only saviours of the nation. However now people have started realizing that this is not the case. Sooner or later they will resist the generals from taking over power.
> Bangladesh is a good example. Dictator after dictator came but when people realized that they are not the solution but the problem and took to the streets Bangladesh has not seen any military takeover. They do exert influence but from behind the scene.
> Regards,



Sir............the army is our core national institution, centre and right/left. It has certain capabilities and the backing of the USA. Unless other institutions can match the armed forces, excepect more of the same!


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## Keysersoze

Gentlemen can we keep this thread to the topic at hand. If you wish to continue the current discussion please feel free to open a new thread.


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## fatman17

Keysersoze said:


> Gentlemen can we keep this thread to the topic at hand. If you wish to continue the current discussion please feel free to open a new thread.



my apologies - i dont know how we got side-tracked!


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## Muradk

ejaz007 said:


> Fatman 17,
> I do not blame people of Pakistan for the response they give when generals take over. Army has been telling the nation since 1947 that they are the only saviours of the nation. However now people have started realizing that this is not the case. Sooner or later they will resist the generals from taking over power.
> Bangladesh is a good example. Dictator after dictator came but when people realized that they are not the solution but the problem and took to the streets Bangladesh has not seen any military takeover. They do exert influence but from behind the scene.
> Regards,



fat: you are absolutly right but remember bangladesh doesn't have the problems we have Just look at our surroudings I mean PAkistan except China we need army on all sides and then the war. After 1947. 48, 65, 71 , 99 Army has been fighting so know they are big and powerfull. It is unfortunate of pakistan what happen in 1979 , you remember fatman I told you that I was 
Zulfiqur Ali Bhutto's ADC and man I stood with him for 22 hours straight 1 day and night no one was alowed in the room he had his lamp on Gin and tonic, He was thinking of his speech for the UN and after an hour he used to say will this sentence work and I used to say yes Sir, Twice I said yes Sir and he got pissed at me he said " I want your opnion for yes sir I have a lot of other people so tell me the truth" I was so scard . If Bhutto would have been alive Pakistan would have been Dubai and the center of Asia. And I have no doubt Paksitan under him would have been one of the super-powers. From what I know of him spending 24 hours with him looking at stuff he is doing listening to what he is saying. In my opnion he was a genius , His thinking made the West so scard that they thought it would be better if he is 6 feet under.\sorry 
getting off topic just to tell you there is nothing so special about the AWACS from sweden , They are very good for shallow places like sea not for other terrain like we have all across NWFP , Kishmir, even some places like Islamabad.


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## fatman17

Muradk said:


> fat: you are absolutly right but remember bangladesh doesn't have the problems we have Just look at our surroudings I mean PAkistan except China we need army on all sides and then the war. After 1947. 48, 65, 71 , 99 Army has been fighting so know they are big and powerfull. It is unfortunate of pakistan what happen in 1979 , you remember fatman I told you that I was
> Zulfiqur Ali Bhutto's ADC and man I stood with him for 22 hours straight 1 day and night no one was alowed in the room he had his lamp on Gin and tonic, He was thinking of his speech for the UN and after an hour he used to say will this sentence work and I used to say yes Sir, Twice I said yes Sir and he got pissed at me he said " I want your opnion for yes sir I have a lot of other people so tell me the truth" I was so scard . If Bhutto would have been alive Pakistan would have been Dubai and the center of Asia. And I have no doubt Paksitan under him would have been one of the super-powers. From what I know of him spending 24 hours with him looking at stuff he is doing listening to what he is saying. In my opnion he was a genius , His thinking made the West of scard that they thought it would be better if he is 6 feet under.\sorry
> getting off topic just to tell you there is nothing so special about the AWACS from sweden , They are very good for shallow places like sea not for other terrain like we have all across NWFP , Kishmir, even some places like Islamabad.



Sir,
I totally agree with what u have said above. thanks for taking the time.


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## Myth_buster_1

[Johannesburg] - Pakistan has become the fifth country to acquire the software-driven airborne Erieye surveillance system from Saab, the Swedish defence vendor.

This raises hopes at the company that SA may lease three or four of the aircraft for the 2010 Soccer World Cup.

Pakistan took possession of the most recent iteration of the radar plane, the Saab 2000, late last month and will primarily use the aircraft to patrol and monitor its porous, mountainous border with Afghanistan.

&#8220;This is a large and strategically important deal for Saab. It is in line with our business strategy within the area of security and surveillance, and it shows Saab's competence in system integration,&#8221; says Saab Surveillance Systems MD Karl Lyth.

Erieye was developed as a military system, but is increasingly being used for civil applications such as airspace surveillance, maritime and border surveillance and for countering smuggling.

*Brazil seized 84 aircraft used for illegal purposes such as drug running in the first month it operated Erieye and closed 30 illegal airfields.*
&#8220;Saab 2000 is a much larger platform [than the Saab 340 previously used] with more space and greater capacity,&#8221; says Saab Aerotech project manager Joakim Andersson, who was in charge of developing the aircraft.

&#8220;It gives the opportunity of carrying more equipment, for example more sensors, electronic intelligence and self-protection,&#8221; he adds. *&#8220;An important strength of Saab 2000 is that it has a very long patrol time; it can remain airborne for more than nine hours without refuelling.*&#8220;Another important factor is that the platform must meet the demands of take off and landing in high temperatures and high-altitude airfields,&#8221; Andersson says.

The intelligence in the surveillance platform is made up of the Erieye mission system, which was developed by Saab Microwave Systems. The system includes a radar, command and control, identification friend or foe, and a ground-based mission training system.

The case for SA

Saab Surveillance Systems director Peter Hultin says the Erieye's software-driven Active Electronically Scanned Array radar gives users the ability to comprehensively and simultaneously survey the air, sea surface and ground environment in a radius of up to 450km around the aircraft to which it is fitted &#8211; or about 450 000km2.

By contrast, ground radar can perhaps scan the near-ground environment to a range of about 50km, taking into account the curvature of the earth. Using Doppler radar, Erieye can accurately track hovering helicopters flying nap-of-the-earth or &#8220;rubber duck&#8221; type boats and jet skis in the surf at extended ranges. This is a valuable feature when employing Erieye in the search-and rescue role or for detecting piracy or illegal fishing activities, says Saab.

Hultin points out that a single aircraft can monitor approximately a quarter of SA's lowest airspace at any given time, versus a 1/200 for ground radar. &#8220;Two aircraft, one based in Gauteng and the other in the Cape, can observe almost all of SA in as fast as half an hour: 10 minutes to warn the systems and take off, and 20 to reach orbit,&#8221; he adds.

In addition, Erieye can complement or supplement existing ground radar and even replace ground-based air traffic control in case of natural calamity, power outage or terrorist attack.

The platform is also ideal to help impose economic and environmental exclusion zones, around nature and fishery reserves, for example. Similarly, it can assist in enforcing no-fly zones in peacekeeping operations, around VIP meetings such as those of the G8, critical infrastructure such as nuclear plants or major events, typified by the 2010 FIFA Soccer World Cup.


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## araz

Muradk said:


> fat: you are absolutly right but remember bangladesh doesn't have the problems we have Just look at our surroudings I mean PAkistan except China we need army on all sides and then the war. After 1947. 48, 65, 71 , 99 Army has been fighting so know they are big and powerfull. It is unfortunate of pakistan what happen in 1979 , you remember fatman I told you that I was
> Zulfiqur Ali Bhutto's ADC and man I stood with him for 22 hours straight 1 day and night no one was alowed in the room he had his lamp on Gin and tonic, He was thinking of his speech for the UN and after an hour he used to say will this sentence work and I used to say yes Sir, Twice I said yes Sir and he got pissed at me he said " I want your opnion for yes sir I have a lot of other people so tell me the truth" I was so scard . If Bhutto would have been alive Pakistan would have been Dubai and the center of Asia. And I have no doubt Paksitan under him would have been one of the super-powers. From what I know of him spending 24 hours with him looking at stuff he is doing listening to what he is saying. In my opnion he was a genius , His thinking made the West so scard that they thought it would be better if he is 6 feet under.\sorry
> getting off topic just to tell you there is nothing so special about the AWACS from sweden , They are very good for shallow places like sea not for other terrain like we have all across NWFP , Kishmir, even some places like Islamabad.



Murad Sahib.
AOA
Idont understand your comment about Saab being good for shallow places but not for other terrain.As I understood PAF evaluated the plane and rejected the American one because of precisely this point . Could you please elaborate further.
WaSalam
Araz


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## Myth_buster_1

Muradk said:


> If Bhutto would have been alive Pakistan would have been Dubai and the center of Asia. And I have no doubt Paksitan under him would have been one of the super-powers. From what I know of him spending 24 hours with him looking at stuff he is doing listening to what he is saying. In my opnion he was a genius , His thinking made the West so scard that they thought it would be better if he is 6 feet under.\sorry
> getting off topic just to tell you there is nothing so special about the AWACS from sweden , They are very good for shallow places like sea not for other terrain like we have all across NWFP , Kishmir, even some places like Islamabad.



sorry to say sir but i have failed to understand how did Bhutto family would have changed pakistan into dubia? Zulfiqur Ali Bhutto and her daughter both failed to bring something positive to this country.Take PAF lost decade of 90s as an example, paf was sanctioned to the extent where it could only operate one F-16 squadron at a time? PAF had a demand of Mirage-2000 and MR10% with his wife blew the done deal away.
Even dictators have done something good for this country. Islamabad is a dictator built city with rapid development under way. 
If no jew plan of 9/11 have had happened, Mush would have changed this country into mini Turkey!


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## Keysersoze

23march said:


> sorry to say sir but i have failed to understand how did Bhutto family would have changed pakistan into dubia? Zulfiqur Ali Bhutto and her daughter both failed to bring something positive to this country.Take PAF lost decade of 90s as an example, paf was sanctioned to the extent where it could only operate one F-16 squadron at a time? PAF had a demand of Mirage-2000 and MR10% with his wife blew the done deal away.
> Even dictators have done something good for this country. Islamabad is a dictator built city with rapid development under way.
> If no jew plan of 9/11 have had happened, Mush would have changed this country into mini Turkey!



Dude this is a AWACS thread....please post in a relevant section. Also conspiracy theories go in the relevant section as well please. All replies to this will be deleted. AWACS AND RELATED SUBJECTS ONLY PLEASE!


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## Muradk

US would have never given us the AWACS it was all talk. plus why buy a equipment which is in use since 1970. why not buy the latest but not everything is perfect. The radar signals work in harmony in a shallow enviroment like a desert or sea. Its a good thing we are not worried that china will attack us mountains do create problems , That is why we have radars on the high mountains like kala bagh AFB , Muree Cliffdon, and so on. I an not saying that we waisted money I was just telling a few bad things about AWACs.


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## Keysersoze

Muradk said:


> US would have never given us the AWACS it was all talk. plus why buy a equipment which is in use since 1970. why not buy the latest but not everything is perfect. The radar signals work in harmony in a shallow enviroment like a desert or sea. Its a good thing we are not worried that china will attack us mountains do create problems , That is why we have radars on the high mountains like kala bagh AFB , Muree Cliffdon, and so on. I an not saying that we waisted money I was just telling a few bad things about AWACs.



I believe the Hawkeye 2000 platform (on the P-3) was a newer design (than the older carrier based hawkeyes. Plus the radar was a a newer upgraded version which is still currently in use on board U.S. hawkeyes (at least until the E2-D comes out)


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## Quwa

Even if PN doesn't get the Hawkeye-2000, it wouldn't matter for very long anyways as we have two very good alternatives. 

For one is the AWACS Pakistan is developing with Chinese assistance; it will probably utilize phased-array technology in AESA form, interoperability with all assets, etc. 

The other option is another set of Erieye; I think Saab will continue to develop the system and solve particular short-comings. Either way the new systems will be in the Wedgetail & Phalcon league...and will draw interest from Pakistan.

Honestly I'm not worried about the systems as much as their potential platforms.


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## BATMAN




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## fatman17

^^batman - nice pics.


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## Neo

*Rare KJ-2000 video's in youtube​*
[youtube]




[youtube]


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## IceCold

Kool!Nice pics. I assume that these birds would ever be made available to pakistan not until a more modern version of it is created and the old ones are to be phased out.
On the side note has US offered these to India? Indian navy was offered something, i am a bit confused to what it actual was?


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## IceCold

Just a bit on the advance E-2D Hawkeye.

*E-2D Advanced Hawkeye*​
Program Overview:
The E-2D Advanced Hawkeye is a game changer in how the Navy will conduct battle management command and control. By serving as the "digital quarterback" to sweep ahead of strike, manage the mission, and keep our net-centric carrier battle groups out of harms way, the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye is the key to advancing the mission, no matter what it may be. The E-2D gives the warfighter expanded battlespace awareness, especially in the area of information operations delivering battle management, theater air and missile defense, and multiple sensor fusion capabilities in an airborne system.

With a two-generation leap in radar sensor capability and a robust network enabled capability, Advanced Hawkeye will deliver critical, actionable data to joint forces and first responders. These advances provide warfighters with the necessary situational awareness to compress the time between initial awareness and active engagement.

First Flight August 2007:
In August 2003, Northrop Grumman and Team Hawkeye committed to delivering Delta One, the first system development and demonstration (SD&D) aircraft and on August 3, 2007, it delivered on that promise conducting its successful first flight. In late Fall, Delta Two, the second SD&D aircraft is slated to fly its first flight. Advanced Hawkeye is the cornerstone of the U.S. Navy's theater air and missile defense architecture in the littorals, overland, and open sea. E-2D's initial operational capability is schedule for 2011.

Some of the many new features of the Advanced Hawkeye are: 
A completely new radar featuring both mechanical and electronic scanning capabilities 
Fully Integrated "All Glass" Tactical Cockpit 
Advanced Identification Friend or Foe System 
New Mission Computer and Tactical Workstations 
Electronic Support Measures Enhancements 
Modernized Communications and Data Link Suite 
These and other new developments incorporated into the E-2D ensure: 
True 360-degree radar coverage provides uncompromised all-weather tracking and situational awareness 
Open architecture compliant, commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS)-based hardware and software enables rapid, cost-wise technology refresh for consistent leading-edge mission tools 
A true FORCEnet enabler - A force multiplier through network enabled capability, Advanced Hawkeye is the gateway to Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Michael G. Mullen's vision for a "1,000-ship navy." 
Multimission flexibility ranging from command and control through missile defense to border security.


----------



## ahussains

If we make a list of AWEACS which one is at no.1 and in that list where Our Erieye stands


----------



## p2prada

ahussains said:


> If we make a list of AWEACS which one is at no.1 and in that list where Our Erieye stands



Nowhere cause the Erieye is not an AWACS. It is an AEW


----------



## Myth_buster_1

*Believed to be Pakistan's first of five Erieye systems, the Saab 2000-based surveillance aircraft is currently undergoing ground testing in Linköping, where Islamabad's second example is also now in teardown.*

This pre-modification refurbishment programme will deliver an aircraft "more or less as new", says Andersson.

Pakistan's aircraft has five on-board operator stations, versus three on modified EMB-145s and Sweden's two upgraded Saab 340s, a service ceiling of over 30,000ft (9,150m) and a mission endurance approaching 10h. The type also features enhanced engines, new generators, additional cooling for on-board mission equipment and a Saab HES-21 electronic warfare suite comprising laser, radar and missile approach warners and countermeasures dispensers.

The aircraft's fuselage has been strengthened to carry the Erieye radar, while its vertical tail has been extended to compensate for the payload, which provides 150e_SDgr coverage to each side of its conformal array. The Saab 2000's outer wing has also been strengthened to accommodate EW and signals intelligence sensors, and for the possible carriage of a towed radar decoy.

Saab says the use of new-generation radar transmit/receive modules with 60% higher output have increased the AEW range of the Erieye design, which can also now detect hovering helicopters and track small naval targets to a range of 350km (190nm).


----------



## EagleEyes

p2prada said:


> Nowhere cause the Erieye is not an AWACS. It is an AEW



Whats the difference?


----------



## p2prada

AWACS are flying radars and command posts combined.

An AEW tracks enemy units like jets, ships etc and sends the data to linked friendly units and command posts. It is basically not capable of ELINT and jamming.

An AWACS does all the required tracking and also gives out best strategies.
For eg: Enemy fighters are tracked and sent to friendly jets. During engagement, they assign targets and communicate about the engagement in real time with command posts on ground and also provide real time data to the fighters. They are capable of jamming communications at much larger distances and have ELINT capabilities. They can track missiles too.

I m mainly differentiating Phalcons to the Erieye.


India is developing its own AESA.

Indian AWACS Moving Forward on 2 Fronts


> The militarized ERJ 145 comes in several versions, including maritime surveillance and electronic intelligence versions. The most common variant, currently operated by Brazil and Greece, is the EMB 145 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft1.* It uses the same Saab Erieye AESA radar that will be mounted on Pakistan&#8217;s new Saab 2000 turboprop AEW&C fleet. There are some blind spots with its &#8220;dorsal blade&#8221; configuration, most notably to the front, but flight patterns can be planned around those gaps to ensure good coverage of the area in question.*





The ERIEYE is a low cost AEW(and possibly C) which doesnot compare with the PHALCON.
Low-cost and effective AEW systems find buyers



> Two systems now on the global market, however, are a step forward in affordability, and are making sales in countries that can't afford a 737, let alone an AWACS. The Saab 2000 EriEye and IAI-Elta Conformal AEW (CAEW) system are competing for sales with the Northrop Grumman E-2D Advanced Hawkeye.




If u want to compare the wedgetail or the phalcons to the Erieye.......then they are definitely not comparable.


Note that IAF bought *3* PHALCONs and their plaforms for $1.5billion while the PAF bought *5* ERIEYEs for less than a $1billion.

Also, IAF ordered 3 more for $1.7billion which will work out to $2billion with platforms. I think the new ones will be based on the greenpine(2080).


----------



## p2prada

The only decent AWACS in the air are American Wedgetail and the Israel Phalcon. 

Any other so called AWACS is simply an embarrassment compared to those 2. This includes the russian, indian and chinese up coming AWACS.


----------



## IceCold

p2prada said:


> The only decent AWACS in the air are American Wedgetail and the Israel Phalcon.
> 
> Any other so called AWACS is simply an embarrassment compared to those 2. This includes the russian, indian and chinese up coming AWACS.



Dude nothing is embarrassment. Just because other platforms lacks certain performance parameters doesnt mean they are embarrassment to the particular country. One has to try to achieve those levels of hight.


----------



## p2prada

IceCold said:


> Dude nothing is embarrassment. Just because other platforms lacks certain performance parameters doesnt mean they are embarrassment to the particular country.



I dint say they are an embarrassment to the country. It is just that the tech on the other AWACS is so INFERIOR that they shouldn't even be called AWACS. 




> One has to try to achieve those levels of hight.


Yes, but it is not possible with the existing systems available in the market with other countries, or those that are being currently being developed.

It is like comparing the F-22 with other fighters. They do their job. But not as effective.

Even NATO countries use american AWACS.


----------



## Contrarian

Um...well, AEW are generally those planes that do all the work of an AWACS, but they dont have the data processing abilities of the AWACS. Its more or less like p2prada said, but with some differences. Its not as if they cant conduct EW, its that they are HEAVILY dependent on ground stations and the range, etc is limited compared to AWACS.

For example The Erieye is dependent on the ground stations. The plane transmits all the data to these ground stations and they in turn do all the processing and merging of the 3-D scenario and send the data back to the Erieye. Incase the stations are not present in the area, the AEW records the EW signals, etc and this data is later analyzed, it ie the plane posses very limited processing capabilities. You take out the ground stations and the true capability of the AEW is severely curtailed. Also the EW and ELINT operations from an AEW are very limited compared to that of an AWACS. As mentioned, AEW are good for nations who cannot afford AWACS in decent numbers.

AWACS are self reliant on everything, they work independently are are a complete node in themselves. Thus you see that most of AEW's are on lighter platforms, while the AWACS are on large and heavy lift planes like Boeing 737's or the Il's, etc. Also the engagement capacity is very limited apart from crew efficiency, range, load of sensors carried, number of workstations-which directly allows for dedicated EW/ELINT operations Along with battle management, something not present in AEW's, etc, etc.

p2prada got it pretty right.

EDIT: The Indian AWACS strategy also relies on AEW. The plan for the foreseeable future is buying around 6 of the Phalcons as the strategic nodes/hubs in the entire network and the DRDO AEW's acting as the extensions of the Phalcons or as theatre nodes. 

As of now the option for the 3 extra Phalcons has not been exercised, but it most definitely will be as the first of the Phalcons is tested and used.


----------



## BATMAN

p2prada said:


> The only decent AWACS in the air are American Wedgetail and the Israel Phalcon.
> 
> Any other so called AWACS is simply an embarrassment compared to those 2. *This includes the russian, indian and chinese up coming AWACS*.



Since you have not included SAAB AWACS, please tell us how do you consider those? decent or embarrasment?

P.S. SAAB ERIEYE are most relevant to the subject matter.


----------



## BATMAN

p2prada said:


> Note that IAF bought *3* PHALCONs and their plaforms for *$1.5billion while the PAF bought 5 ERIEYEs for less than a $1billion.*



Was it not a $1.1 billion for Phalcons deal?
And what is the point?


----------



## nitesh

malaymishra123 said:


> As of now the option for the 3 extra Phalcons has not been exercised, but it most definitely will be as the first of the Phalcons is tested and used.



Are malay bhai, seems like IAF is getting 3 more AWACS, check this

Three Additional Israeli PHALCON AWACS For Indian Air Force | India Defence


----------



## Neo

nitesh said:


> Are malay bhai, seems like IAF is getting 3 more AWACS, check this



It isn't official yet, Indian Air Force has "cleared proposals to acquire three more such platforms".


----------



## p2prada

BATMAN said:


> Was it not a $1.1 billion for Phalcons deal?
> And what is the point?



The phalcons system costs 1.1bil

the IL-76, the platform, costs $300 to 400million.

So, total $1.5bil


----------



## p2prada

malaymishra123 said:


> EDIT: The Indian AWACS strategy also relies on AEW. The plan for the foreseeable future is buying around 6 of the Phalcons as the strategic nodes/hubs in the entire network and the DRDO AEW's acting as the extensions of the Phalcons or as theatre nodes.
> 
> As of now the option for the 3 extra Phalcons has not been exercised, but it most definitely will be as the first of the Phalcons is tested and used.




I guess the IAF is also checking out Elta's conformal AEW too. 2011, first flight of DRDO's AEW, is still far off. Plus india is also inducting quiet a few AEROSTATS(stationary AEWs)

In the end we might have a mix of Phalcons, CAEW and DRDO's AEW.


----------



## p2prada

BATMAN said:


> Since you have not included SAAB AWACS, please tell us how do you consider those? decent or embarrasment?
> 
> P.S. SAAB ERIEYE are most relevant to the subject matter.




It is definitely better than all three. the Erieye has been in development since the 1980s. A lot of work has been done. The swedes are ahead of russia, india and china.


----------



## p2prada

Neo said:


> It isn't official yet, Indian Air Force has "cleared proposals to acquire three more such platforms".



It is official from the IAF. But, MoD also has to clear it. 

as malay said, it will be possible only after IAF starts testing the indian Phalcons. but, they will come for sure.


----------



## Contrarian

nitesh said:


> Are malay bhai, seems like IAF is getting 3 more AWACS, check this
> 
> Three Additional Israeli PHALCON AWACS For Indian Air Force | India Defence



No, the IAF has cleared the proposal to buy the 3 additional ones, now it rests with the MoD. As we know, they take their sweet time.


----------



## p2prada

malaymishra123 said:


> now it rests with the MoD. As we know, they take their *sweet time.*



sweet time is an understatement.


----------



## p2prada

Note to Mods

I believe PAF is procuring *5* ERIEYEs.

But the defence.pk homepage lists it as *6*

http://www.defence.pk/

Can it be corrected.


----------



## EagleEyes

p2prada said:


> Note to Mods
> 
> I believe PAF is procuring *5* ERIEYEs.
> 
> But the defence.pk homepage lists it as *6*
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/
> 
> Can it be corrected.



What is your source? 5 AEW&Cs and 1 for training.


----------



## p2prada

WebMaster said:


> What is your source? 5 AEW&Cs and 1 for training.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/10998-paf-awacs.html



> In June 2006, the PAF had signed a deal for the supply of six Saab 2000s.
> 
> However, because of shortage of funds, the number of aircraft was revised to five.



HAIDER's post in this forum itself has the required info.


----------



## p2prada

PakWheels.com : Pakistan gets Swedish early warning aircraft (Aircraft / Trains)

one more link stating the same


----------



## Neo

Its Five + One despite confusing numbers from different sites. Like webby stated, the sixt platform is a trainer.


----------



## p2prada

Neo said:


> Its Five + One despite confusing numbers from different sites. Like webby stated, the sixt platform is a trainer.



Dont think its possible. there is no airforce in the world, atleast in third world countries, which will keep an AWACS for training. Its not possible financially and cause u dont need to fly to work on the AWACS work stations. Ground stations are used for training initially and then trainees are moved to the operational AWACS squadrons. 

maybe u mean a SAAB 2000 turboprop was purchased to train pilots.

These are the best radars that pak has. u are getting only a handful and u say one will be utilized for training.


----------



## Imran Khan

In June 2006, Saab signed a SEK 8.3 billion provisional contract to supply S100B Argus turboprop airborne early warning (AEW&C) systems to Pakistan. According to earlier reports at Pakistani Defence, *Pakistan aimed to buy 14 SAAB 2000 aircraft from Sweden: 7 for the PAF&#8217;s AEW&C role as Argus aircraft, and the remaining 7 for the state-owned PIA airline. *Saab releases, however, have made no mention of a passenger version. 

The Saab aircraft beat a number of other competitors, including Bombardier&#8217;s Dash-8/Q200 and US offers to sell the E-2C Hawkeye system. The Argus AEW&C award also caps a 25-year quest by the Pakistani Air force. The buy was recently reduced somewhat for financial reasons to 5 aircraft, but the first plane has now been rolled out&#8230;.


S-1000 & Gripen
(click to view full)In &#8220;SAAB 2000 & ERIEYE AWE&C system,&#8221;a Pakistani government site explains the operational need for these aircraft, and chronicles their pursuit of the 707-based E-3C AWACS aircraft and related systems since 1979. Indeed, Pakistan had pursued the Erieye system before, but had been rejected several times under Sweden&#8217;s military export policies. With that roadblock clear, Pakistan has engaged in long negotiations with Saab that have finally come to fruition. With respect to the new aircraft&#8217;s radar capabilities, the article notes that:

&#8220;The Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar uses an active array with 200 solid state modules. The range of the S-band, 3 GHz, and side looking radar is 300 km. The 1,985-lb (900-kg) dorsal antenna is housed in a 29-ft 6.3-in (9-m) long box radome mounted atop the fuselage. Utilizing adaptive side lobe suppression, the look angle on each side is about 160 degrees. From its standard operational altitude of 6000 metres (19,685 feet, or FL200) the radar has a maximum range of 450 km (279 miles). Against a fighter-sized target effective range is approximately 330 km (205 miles). Seaborne targets can be detected at 320 km (198 miles), though this is a function of the aircraft&#8217;s cruising height. The electronically scanned antenna can scan sectors of interest frequently while others are monitored, and a single sector can be scanned in different modes at the same time.&#8221;


----------



## p2prada

Sweden Finalizes Saab 2000 AEW&#038;C Contract With Pakistan

I found the entire news clipping



> AIR_S100B_Argus_AEWC_Cutaway_lg.jpg
> cutaway view
> (click to view full)
> 
> In June 2006, Saab signed a SEK 8.3 billion provisional contract to supply S100B Argus turboprop airborne early warning (AEW&C) systems to Pakistan. According to earlier reports at Pakistani Defence, Pakistan aimed to buy 14 SAAB 2000 aircraft from Sweden: 7 for the PAFs AEW&C role as Argus aircraft, and the remaining 7 for the state-owned PIA airline. Saab releases, however, have made no mention of a passenger version.
> 
> The Saab aircraft beat a number of other competitors, including Bombardiers Dash-8/Q200 and US offers to sell the E-2C Hawkeye system. The Argus AEW&C award also caps a 25-year quest by the Pakistani Air force. The buy was recently reduced somewhat for financial reasons to 5 aircraft, but the first plane has now been rolled out.
> AIR_S-1000_and_JAS-39.jpg
> S-1000 & Gripen
> (click to view full)
> 
> In SAAB 2000 & ERIEYE AWE&C system,a Pakistani government site explains the operational need for these aircraft, and chronicles their pursuit of the 707-based E-3C AWACS aircraft and related systems since 1979. Indeed, Pakistan had pursued the Erieye system before, but had been rejected several times under Swedens military export policies. With that roadblock clear, Pakistan has engaged in long negotiations with Saab that have finally come to fruition. With respect to the new aircrafts radar capabilities, the article notes that:
> 
> The Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar uses an active array with 200 solid state modules. The range of the S-band, 3 GHz, and side looking radar is 300 km. The 1,985-lb (900-kg) dorsal antenna is housed in a 29-ft 6.3-in (9-m) long box radome mounted atop the fuselage. Utilizing adaptive side lobe suppression, the look angle on each side is about 160 degrees. From its standard operational altitude of 6000 metres (19,685 feet, or FL200) the radar has a maximum range of 450 km (279 miles). Against a fighter-sized target effective range is approximately 330 km (205 miles). Seaborne targets can be detected at 320 km (198 miles), though this is a function of the aircrafts cruising height. The electronically scanned antenna can scan sectors of interest frequently while others are monitored, and a single sector can be scanned in different modes at the same time.
> 
> That last bit is a reference to the AESA radars ability to scan ground and air activity at the same time, rather than switching between these modes as conventional radars do. An Australian airpower article explains the potential benefits of AESA radars against other AEW&C offerings like the E-2C Hawkeye  and also notes the limitations of the S100B/Erieye system:
> 
> The limitation of the two sided array is that it can only cover two 120 degree sectors abeam of the aircraft, leaving 60 degree blind sectors over the nose and tail of the aircraft, and reduced antenna performance from 45 degrees off the beam aspect. Another limitation stems from the use of an airframe too small to accommodate a comprehensive self contained command, control and communications system, and other sensors such as a capable ESM and track association system.
> 
> Saabs corporate release notes that two third of the order value is for Saab and one third for Ericsson Microwave Systems [for the PS-890 Erieye radars], witch is, after the Saab acquisition, expected to be a part of Saab in September 2006. DID recently covered that acquisition.
> 
> Contracts and Related Events:
> AIR_Saab-2000_Erieye_Concept.jpg
> Over the hump?
> (click to view full)
> 
> April 3/08: Chinas government-controlled Xinhua reports that the first Saab 2000 Erieye aircraft for the PAF was rolled out in Sweden and prepared for flight trials by the year end, after being equipped with a full suite of mission systems. The Pakistan Air Force achieved a major landmark in its Airborne Early Warning Program with the roll out of its first Saab 2000 AEW&C in a simple but impressive ceremony at the Saab facility in Sweden, the PAF statement said.
> 
> The aircraft will be put through trials before being delivered to the PAF in 2009. See also Flight Internationals photo coverage, which puts the total number of Saab 2000 aircraft at 5.
> 
> May 28/07: Maybe not quite finalized. A Saab release states that:
> 
> With reference to the sale of Saab Airborne Surveillance Systems to Pakistan, the customer has for financial reasons and in accordance with the original contract, asked to renegotiate part of the contract concerning a reduction of the number of systems. Together with Saab terms and conditions then have been agreed, concerning a reduction. Saab and the Government of Pakistan continue as planned with the delivery of the system.
> 
> As a result of the renegotiation, the order value is decreased by approximately SEK 1.35 billion [DID 8.3B  1.35B = 6.95B, a 16.3% reduction and about $1 billion at a May 28 conversion]. Income will decrease proportionally to the volume change, but other commercial terms and conditions will remain unchanged.
> 
> The number of planes in the revised order was not specified, but a later report placed the total number of Saab 2000 aircraft in the revised order at 5. If the original order had been 6, a 16.3% reduction is about right.
> 
> June 22/06: Saab announces a SEK 8.3 billion (approx. $1.15 billion at then-rate conversion) provisional contract for Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) surveillance systems using Saab 2000 turboprops equipped with Ericssons Erieye radar.
> 
> Two third of the order value is for Saab and one third for Ericsson Microwave Systems, witch is, after the Saab acquisition, expected to be a part of Saab in September 2006.




There are references to only 5 and not 6.

*The buy was recently reduced somewhat for financial reasons to 5 aircraft,*

*The aircraft will be put through trials before being delivered to the PAF in 2009. See also Flight Internationals photo coverage, which puts the total number of Saab 2000 aircraft at 5.*

*The number of planes in the revised order was not specified, but a later report placed the total number of Saab 2000 aircraft in the revised order at 5. If the original order had been 6, a 16.3% reduction is about right.*



Plus, it is being downgraded.


> With reference to the sale of Saab Airborne Surveillance Systems to Pakistan, the customer has for financial reasons and in accordance with the original contract, asked to renegotiate part of the contract concerning a reduction of the number of systems. Together with Saab terms and conditions then have been agreed, concerning a reduction. Saab and the Government of Pakistan continue as planned with the delivery of the system.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> Plus, it is being downgraded.



What is being downgraded?


----------



## p2prada

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What is being downgraded?





> &#8220;With reference to the sale of Saab Airborne Surveillance Systems to Pakistan, the customer has for financial reasons and in accordance with the original contract,asked to renegotiate part of the contract concerning a * reduction of the number of systems.* Together with Saab terms and conditions then have been agreed, concerning a reduction. Saab and the Government of Pakistan continue as planned with the delivery of the system.



I do not know what systems are being taken out. SAAB and PAF have to release it.


the downgrade is not technology denial. It is more to do with lack of money.


----------



## Skywalker

p2prada said:


> I do not know what systems are being taken out. SAAB and PAF have to release it.
> 
> 
> the downgrade is not technology denial. It is more to do with lack of money.



So are you suggesting that PAF sacrificed its requirement due to financial constraints....I have serious doubts about that as neither of the sides mentioned anything about downgrading. The only reason I can see for the reduction of numbers is because Pakistan is putting its money on KJ 2000 which be acquired in numbers as a JV with no strings attached.

Same with F 16.


----------



## Imran Khan

Pakistan is also purchasing arms for its forces, including a $1.15 billion order in June 2006 for* six Swedish SAAB 2000 *turboprop AWACS aircraft with radars from Ericsson Microwave Systems. 

International Institute for Strategic StudiesMilitary spending to worsen security in Asia


----------



## Imran Khan

i also confuse some were is 6 or 7 saab2000 but some places is 5 so sir murad can you confirm please?


----------



## p2prada

imran khan said:


> Pakistan is also purchasing arms for its forces, including a $1.15 billion order in June 2006 for* six Swedish SAAB 2000 *turboprop AWACS aircraft with radars from Ericsson Microwave Systems.
> 
> International Institute for Strategic StudiesMilitary spending to worsen security in Asia





the date on your link says Sept 26th,2007.

the date on the link i posted is more recent and clearly says 5 Erieyes.
Sweden Finalizes Saab 2000 AEW&#038;C Contract With Pakistan


----------



## Imran Khan

p2prada said:


> the date on your link says Sept 26th,2007.
> 
> the date on the link i posted is more recent and clearly says 5 Erieyes.
> Sweden Finalizes Saab 2000 AEW&C Contract With Pakistan



i understand but the problim is you only search for 5 but me for real #.i will confirm that from our paf members.until now i get some were 5 or 6 or 7 also.i think its 5 saab2000 AWACS with 1 for traning and also for service use.


----------



## Imran Khan

Skywalker said:


> So are you suggesting that PAF sacrificed its requirement due to financial constraints....I have serious doubts about that as neither of the sides mentioned anything about downgrading. The only reason I can see for the reduction of numbers is because Pakistan is putting its money on KJ 2000 which be acquired in numbers as a JV with no strings attached.
> 
> Same with F 16.



may be this one is right.good point man


----------



## Imran Khan

p2prada said:


> the date on your link says Sept 26th,2007.
> 
> the date on the link i posted is more recent and clearly says 5 Erieyes.
> Sweden Finalizes Saab 2000 AEW&C Contract With Pakistan



*in your link there is 7 you can read*


In June 2006, Saab signed a SEK 8.3 billion provisional contract to supply S100B Argus turboprop airborne early warning (AEW&C) systems to Pakistan. According to earlier reports at Pakistani Defence, Pakistan aimed to buy 14 SAAB 2000 aircraft from Sweden:* 7 for the PAFs AEW&C* role as Argus aircraft, and the remaining 7 for the state-owned PIA airline. Saab releases, however, have made no mention of a passenger version.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

p2prada said:


> I do not know what systems are being taken out. SAAB and PAF have to release it.
> 
> 
> the downgrade is not technology denial. It is more to do with lack of money.



The way I read and interpreted that line was that "systems" referred to the "eeriye" itself, not any individual systems on board the AEW&C.

So reduction in systems would be a reduction from 7 systems to 5 systems (or 6).


----------



## Muradk

Skywalker said:


> So are you suggesting that PAF sacrificed its requirement due to financial constraints....I have serious doubts about that as neither of the sides mentioned anything about downgrading. The only reason I can see for the reduction of numbers is because Pakistan is putting its money on KJ 2000 which be acquired in numbers as a JV with no strings attached.
> 
> Same with F 16.



we are getting KJ's at a very low price, on the other hand SABB are coasting a lot more. And yes we do have money issues. People dont realise that we spend atleast 1 million dollors a day to run PAF and this figure is from my days early 90s. It takes 1 million dollor per cadet to train him. So yes we do have to think twice before we ask for something. If Pakistan would have the budget dont you think they would have picked something readymade from EU with TOT. ( Fighter )


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

p2prada said:


> I do not know what systems are being taken out. SAAB and PAF have to release it.
> 
> 
> the downgrade is not technology denial. It is more to do with lack of money.



Its Ironical what people like you try to Prove by Comments like these!

Mr. Everything Downgraded, 

Please know that we are not stupid people and have high level of understanding of our requirements and the Technology being bought and offered to us by anyone....

Only Change in the deal was that; PAF opted for 5+1 (SAAB Eireye + Trainer)


----------



## ejaz007

The only change in the deal is the number of systems being bought. Technology is the same as was earlier. No credible source has suggested that technology has been compromised, in fact none has said any thing about this. All are saying that the numbers have been changed.


----------



## Super Falcon

kawk eye was offered to PN


----------



## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> kawk eye was offered to PN



U MEAN HAWKEYE-2000 fitted on a P-3H. still on the table. will cost US$800 mill if we want it. 5 aircraft (4+1 for spares)


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

Fatman,

As far as i remember US offered 3 P3 Orions to be fitted with Hawkeye.


----------



## Sam Dhanraj

Came across The First of Five Saab's Erieye Aircraft for Pakistan that is being displayed at Farnborough 2008

Since the Picture is copyrighted...here is the link..... NJoy !!!

Photos: Saab 2000 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net


----------



## IceCold

Sam Dhanraj said:


> Came across The First of Five Saab's Erieye Aircraft for Pakistan is displayed at Farnborough 2008
> 
> Since the Picture is copyrighted...here is the link..... NJoy !!!
> 
> Photos: Saab 2000 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net



This link isn't working.


----------



## Owais

IceCold said:


> This link isn't working.



link is working. nice photo sam


----------



## fatman17

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Fatman,
> 
> As far as i remember US offered 3 P3 Orions to be fitted with Hawkeye.



U r correct but the DSCA - EDA bulletin board shows 5 P3-H being allocated to pakistan. what this signifies, my guess is as good as yours.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

DATE:14/07/08
SOURCE:Flight International

FARNBOROUGH 2008: Saab 2000 AEW makes show debut
By Niall OKeeffe

The newest addition to Saab's range of surveillance aircraft, the Erieye radar-equipped Saab 2000, is making its international debut this week, with the first example appearing in the static display at the Farnborough air show.

Intended to deliver airborne early warning and control and air combat co-ordination services, the aircraft incorporates the latest Erieye system upgrades, including a self-protection system, electronic support measures, identification friend or foe, a radar warning receiver, and missile and laser approach warners. Saab claims that the upgrades also enhance the aircraft's ability to detect small air targets, such as hovering helicopters.

One of four radar-equipped aircraft on order for launch customer Pakistan, the first Saab 2000 AEW&C aircraft (pictured, top) completed flutter testing in hot and high conditions during a two-week deployment to Grenada, Spain, prior to arriving in Farnborough. Testing will continue through the summer and into the autumn, according to the Swedish manufacturer.


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## Myth_buster_1



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## fatman17

23rd march - nice job!


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## blain2

The second link publicly confirms the 360 degree coverage of the Erieye radar in contrast to the limitations on the Swedish and Greek Argus platforms.


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## Myth_buster_1

Just one concern over 350km detection range...  MKIs radar Bars and even Ibris will have around the same detection range?? but with out shadow of dough, Erieye will be the most advance system after Palcons in the sub-continent..


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## nitesh

23march said:


> Just one concern over 350km detection range...  MKIs radar Bars and even Ibris will have around the same detection range?? but with out shadow of dough, Erieye will be the most advance system after Palcons in the sub-continent..



Anyway aew&c/awacs don't fly alone. So not much of a problem with detection range. But I feel it will do it's job very fine, that is providing 24*7 coverage to pakistani airspace, and co-ordination of air attack/defense.

Thanks for the information provided.


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## Myth_buster_1

nitesh said:


> *Anyway aew&c/awacs don't fly alone.* So not much of a problem with detection range. But I feel it will do it's job very fine, that is providing 24*7 coverage to pakistani airspace, and co-ordination of air attack/defense.
> 
> Thanks for the information provided.



I am not addressing the escort issue.. i am much more concerned of Phalcon long range able to search and detect well with in 200+ or 150 km effectively on our territory where as Erieye will not have long range advantage.. 

is their need of long range AWAC such as KJ-2000?


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## Keysersoze

23march said:


> Just one concern over 350km detection range...  MKIs radar Bars and even Ibris will have around the same detection range?? but with out shadow of dough, Erieye will be the most advance system after Palcons in the sub-continent..



Dude a AWACS can pump out a lot more power than a fighter based radar. Also the TR modules would be much bigger etc etc. 

Also the ranges for the Erieye are in a dense electronic environment.

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## nitesh

23march said:


> I am not addressing the escort issue.. i am much more concerned of Phalcon long range able to search and detect well with in 200+ or 150 km effectively on our territory where as Erieye will not have long range advantage..
> 
> is their need of long range AWAC such as KJ-2000?



Well Erieye seems to be a urgent acquisition till KJ-2000 comes in to picture. As per my knowledge goes, pakistan is considering to by KJ-2000.
(Correct me if I am wrong)

But I feel Erieye will do just fine no need to go for KJ 2000. (my personal opinion)


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## Myth_buster_1

nitesh said:


> Well Erieye seems to be a urgent acquisition till KJ-2000 comes in to picture. As per my knowledge goes, pakistan is considering to by KJ-2000.
> (Correct me if I am wrong)
> 
> But I feel Erieye will do just fine no need to go for KJ 2000. (my personal opinion)



KJ-200 it is... based on Erieye system..


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## nitesh

23march said:


> KJ-200 it is... based on Erieye system..



I don't have any info on KJ-200 can you please share it.
Thanks in advance.


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## blain2

23march said:


> Just one concern over 350km detection range...  MKIs radar Bars and even Ibris will have around the same detection range?? but with out shadow of dough, Erieye will be the most advance system after Palcons in the sub-continent..



Big, big difference in the way the targets are scanned, tracked and distinguished and other intel gathered. A fighter's AI radar at this time at least cannot compare with a dedicated AEW system. There are other factors such as susceptibility to jamming, discrimination etc. that dedicated AEW platforms can do better by leaps and bounds. For all that capability you need better ESM equipment which requires more real estate which fighters, even the size of MKI, do not have. So just extended detection ranges for radars are not the name of the game. Early detection in addition to the ability to function in heavy ECM environments and gathering ELINT is the plus you have with the Erieye and other dedicated AEW platforms.


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## Myth_buster_1

blain2 said:


> Big, big difference in the way the targets are scanned, tracked and distinguished and other intel gathered. A fighter's AI radar at this time at least cannot compare with a dedicated AEW system. There are other factors such as susceptibility to jamming, discrimination etc. that dedicated AEW platforms can do better by leaps and bounds. For all that capability you need better ESM equipment which requires more real estate which fighters, even the size of MKI, do not have. So just extended detection ranges for radars are not the name of the game. Early detection in addition to the ability to function in heavy ECM environments and gathering ELINT is the plus you have with the Erieye and other dedicated AEW platforms.



thank you for the info... so does that mean Bars or Ibris at 300+km search and detect mod is prone to advance electronic Counter Measures that PAF will possesses?? i was concerned about the MKI long range radar though i am aware of the fact that Erieye is a true dedicated system in dense electronic environment...


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## Munir

Keysersoze said:


> Dude a AWACS can pump out a lot more power than a fighter based radar. Also the TR modules would be much bigger etc etc.
> 
> Also the ranges for the Erieye are in a dense electronic environment.



More radar, more computing power and more manpower... Besides that more modes and better defence suit. Better interlinks, more flight time, more range, etc etc

I doubt that BARS is as advanced as this one...


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## blain2

23march said:


> thank you for the info... so does that mean Bars or Ibris at 300+km search and detect mod is prone to advance electronic Counter Measures that PAF will possesses?? i was concerned about the MKI long range radar though i am aware of the fact that Erieye is a true dedicated system in dense electronic environment...



Absolutely. BARS and IRBIS radars are touted as Mini-awacs for the tactical capabilities they offer in directing other aircraft. No way are they comparable to the dedicated array radars on AEW platforms. The jamming capabilities are so significant on such platforms that they can render most AI radars blind or disrupted. Way too much to ask of an AI radar here.

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## Myth_buster_1

^ keeping enemies surface to air, and air borne threats how far can Erieye push to provide maximum coverage to PAF deep strike package? most of Indian north western air command airbases are located well within 100km but how about naval bases at the south...??


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## Proud to be Pakistani

We require Hawkeye on P3 - Orions for that area!

Furthermore, BARS is more speculated by Indians than promoted by Russians them selfs..

It is by no means either scanning, detection or ECM capabilities in reach with Eireye Platform.... No Way!


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## Myth_buster_1

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> We require Hawkeye on P3 - Orions for that area!
> 
> Furthermore, BARS is more speculated by Indians than promoted by Russians them selfs..
> 
> It is by no means either scanning, detection or ECM capabilities in reach with Eireye Platform.... No Way!



you are not getting my point.. first of all i never intended to compare MKI radar with Erieye but addressed my concern over mki long range radar coverage.. how ever blain has clarified me..
my next question was regarding PAF AEW support for deep penetration package thats 200-350km plus! and Mumbai is well off PN P3C AEW range...


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## Myth_buster_1




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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Phalcon pictures moved to phalcon thread in Military images section:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/4528-phalcon-awacs.html?highlight=phalcon


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## ahussains

Is saab comming to Pakistan with the refueling probe ?


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## araz

ahussains said:


> Is saab comming to Pakistan with the refueling probe ?



AHussain
If am not mistaken it was presented at the last IDEAmeeting. There is specullation that it might be adapted for Thunder. Obviously it has not been confirmed.
Regards
Araz


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## Myth_buster_1

Saab 2000 AEW&C prepares for duty

By David Donald
July 14, 2008
Aircraft

On April 30, Saab achieved a significant milestone with the first flight of the Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, developed under Project Horizon for the Pakistan air force. The two-hour flight from Linköping, Sweden, was used to check out general handling and aircraft systems, and encountered no problems. The maiden flight came a month after the aircraft was officially rolled out in front of Pakistani commanders.

Pakistan first contemplated the acquisition of an AEW system in the early 1980s, when Soviet and Afghan air force aircraft regularly intruded into Pakistani airspace. Other priorities, and the later U.S. arms embargo, meant that the requirement went unfulfilled. However, events in the wake of the 9/11 terrorist attacksplus ongoing tensions with Indiaplaced renewed emphasis on the AEW requirement.

Pakistan selected the Erieye in 2005 and later revised the initial requirement for six platforms to five as a cost-reduction measure. It is buying a complete surveillance package, including ground-based systems, logistics support and mission training systems.

*The Saab 2000 AEW&C is the latest iteration of the Saab Microwave Systems Erieye concept.* The five-operator system has increased command and control capabilities, including the Swedish Link-E system.

The radar itself, which consists of 192 transmit/receive modules, has been improved with an extended early warning mode and the ability to spot hovering helicopters. *Coverage has been increased to two 150-degree sectors (from 120-degrees, still with a 1-degree beamwidth), with range out to the horizon (typically 199 to 217 miles).* The radar offers a fully fused air/sea capability, and can spot maritime targets as small as jet-skis.

Virtually all of the radar components have been replaced since the Erieye was first fielded in 1996, and all of the computer systems are COTS-based for cost-effective and rapid upgrade. *Power output is around 20 percent greater than it was previously, although power requirements, and thus cooling, for the mission system have decreased by 30 percent. The effects of improvement can also be seen in a 53-percent reduction in system weight and 78-percent reduction in floor space. At the same time, computing power has increased a hundredfold.*

Backing up the radar is a sophisticated Saab Avitronics HES-21 ESM/protection suite that uses interferometer antennas and digital receivers for highly accurate tracking and ranging of emitters. HES-21 data is fused with that from the radar to provide detailed tracking, and it can generate its own tracks at ranges greater than that possible with the radar. The system also includes a comprehensive self-protection function, automatically controlling the launch of chaff and flares.

Commuter on Patrol
The choice of basing Erieye on a regional airliner has obvious benefits in terms of high reliability, cost-efficiency and low maintenance requirements, but also offers significant mission benefits. The types hot-and-high performance is critical in the Pakistani operational environment. The aircraft has a balanced field length of 4,593 feet, allowing it to use many small airports, and it can reach 25,000 feet in 16 minutes.

*Mission endurance is nine to 10 hours thanks to extra tanks in the cabin*, and it can operate at up to 30,000 feet. At cruise power, the aircraft flies at about 340 knots, impressive for a turboprop. Using a 60-degree bank, the aircraft can complete a 180-degree turn at the end of a racetrack pattern in less than 30 seconds, with little interruption in track coverage.

Crew comfort is a consideration for long-endurance patrols, and through its active noise cancellation system, the Saab 2000 offers very low cabin noise levels. A 7,500-foot cabin pressure can be maintained at operational altitude. The Pakistani aircraft have a galley and rest area, with a mission display in the latter so that resting crew can stay informed of emerging situations. The flight deck is a very modern airliner-style working environment, with a six-tube Collins ProLine 4 electronic flight information system.

Erieye Conversions
Saab Aerotech performs conversions in its facilities at Linköping. For the first aircraft, the work took less than a year to complete. The conversion comprises several airframe structural modifications, including strengthening the upper rear fuselage to mount the Erieye radar.

The sensor is mounted higher than on the Saab 340 so it can see over the longer wings of the Saab 2000. The vertical fin is enlarged and strengthened to offset the aerodynamic effects of the radar and its support struts, while the wingtips are rebuilt and reinforced to carry antennas and chaff dispensers. The belly fairing is reworked and enlarged to mount elements of the self-protection system.

Although the aircraft are pre-owned, structural life is not a factor. *The airliner was designed with an initial structural life of 75,000 hours*, and on average, the fleet has used less than 20 percent. Based on typical use rates, the remaining life of the AEW&C is more than 35 years, with options for further re-lifing. Modification work on the second aircraft was already under way at the time of the rollout.

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## Myth_buster_1



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## araz

Work wise the Phalcon is a potent system but it is one Ugly looking Mama, with that horrible nose, like a droopy tit.
Araz


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## IceCold

araz said:


> Work wise the Phalcon is a potent system but it is one Ugly looking Mama, with that horrible nose, like a droopy tit.
> Araz



lol! well said sir.


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## Super Falcon

which AWAS is the better in the world can you name them


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## araz

Super Falcon said:


> which AWAS is the better in the world can you name them



Well unfortunately for us, Phalcon is one of the best , if not the best along with E3C.
Araz


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## Myth_buster_1

araz said:


> Well unfortunately for us, Phalcon is one of the best , if not the best along with E3C.
> Araz



sir Phalcon and erieye early warning capability are almost the same except Phalcon has inboard control system while Erieye is ground linked system? PAF was more interested in MESA but due to tight budget they chose the cheaper and effective Erieye..


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## nitesh

23march said:


> sir Phalcon and erieye early warning capability are almost the same except Phalcon has inboard control system while Erieye is ground linked system? PAF was more interested in MESA but due to tight budget they chose the cheaper and effective Erieye..



23march isn't it is a major difference between two systems


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## Myth_buster_1

nitesh said:


> 23march isn't it is a major difference between two systems


not at all.. one is ground linked system while the other has inboard system both are AESA and have same detection capability..


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## nitesh

23march said:


> not at all.. one is ground linked system while the other has inboard system both are AESA and have same detection capability..



So Erieye is dependent on ground systems which will be vulnerable to attack where as phalcon can do the job independently, so i think it is a major difference.


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## Myth_buster_1

nitesh said:


> So Erieye is dependent on ground systems which will be vulnerable to attack where as phalcon can do the job independently, so i think it is a major difference.



just from where did you come to this BS conclusion? any links to go with your claim?


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## nitesh

23march said:


> just from where did you come to this BS conclusion? any links to go with your claim?



First of all I had not started the this vs that thing. I was responding to your post.


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## Myth_buster_1

nitesh said:


> First of all I had not started the this vs that thing. I was responding to your post.



dude i was comparing + and - points for both platforms while you jumped in for a pissing contest.. please construct solid proof before you come to your genius conlusion..


> Erieye is dependent on ground systems which will be vulnerable to attack


 you just made a fool out of your self.. my advice, dont make such fanboy stunts...


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## nitesh

23march said:


> dude i was comparing + and - points for both platforms while you jumped in for a pissing contest.. please construct solid proof before you come to your genius conlusion..
> you just made a fool out of your self.. my advice, dont make such fanboy stunts...



check the post no 321 which was posted by you and then post no 322 first.


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## Myth_buster_1

This article is 4 years old, but just wanted to bring up the point if PAK-Saudi AEW&C deal is still going on? I mean sure it will release financial burden off Pakistan.
___________
Defensenews.com

Saudi Arabia, Pakistan Eye Joint AEW Buy
By BARBARA OPALL-ROME,

*TEL AVIV Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are discussing a joint purchase of 14 airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) *aircraft based on Swedens Saab 2000 regional airliner and the Erieye radar and sensor suite by Ericsson Microwave Systems, according to an analyst specializing in South Asian military affairs.

In an Oct. 29 interview from Kuala Lumpur, Prasun Sengupta estimated the aircraft would cost up to $1.7 billion, the bulk of which would be funded by Saudi Arabia in exchange for in-country training of Saudi crews by Pakistani Air Force personnel.

The prospective deal, which he characterized as in advanced stages of negotiation, envisions seven aircraft for Saudi Arabia and seven for Pakistan. Used Saab 2000s would be refurbished with the Ericsson AEW&C system. As part of the package, Pakistan also would receive seven basic Saab 2000s, which would be upgraded for use by its national airline, Pakistan National Airlines, and Saudi Arabia would acquire an additional three or more used Saab 2000s for spare parts, Sengupta said.

Since the [Saab 2000] production line is closed, these aircraft will be bought back from regional operators and sent for depot-level maintenance to bring the airframe and the engines back to zero-life  practically mint condition, Sengupta said. Then Ericsson, as a subcontractor to Saab, will install and integrate its Erieye system, which has already been validated in this aircraft.
A Pakistani purchase of AEW aircraft would follow Indias recent acquisition of similar Israeli planes, while Saudi Arabia may be looking to replace its 1980s-vintage Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft.

Saab spokesman Peter Larsson confirmed the discussions with Pakistan, but declined comment on whether there were any talks under way involving the Saudis. However, several European sources confirmed there are talks under way on unspecified defense deals between the Swedes and Saudi Arabia. Ericsson declined to comment on the matter, and Swedish defense officials did not respond to requests for comment. A Pakistani diplomat in Washington said he had no knowledge of the deal. Sengupta said he was 100 percent certain of the joint Saudi-Pakistani discussions with Saab and other industry partners. He said his information was verified by Swedish and European industry sources in Kuala Lumpur and by participants in Pakistans International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS 2004) held Sept. 14-17 in Karachi, Pakistan.

Pakistani Press Reports

Since Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistani president and Army chief of staff, visited Stockholm in July, various Pakistani media outlets have published reports of an imminent purchase of at least six of the Saab/Erieye AEW&C planes.

A mid-July report in the Pakistan Times also noted that Musharrafs visit paved the way for a visit later that month by Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, chief of staff of the Pakistani Air Force. According to the paper, Saadat was expected to pick up where Musharraf left off with regard to technical aspects of the deal. Senguptas assessment, however, is the first that links Saudi Arabia with Pakistan in the prospective AEW&C deal. The analyst said that the Swedish government had approved the sale, notwithstanding its policy of denying weaponry to regions of conflict, since the Saab 2000 is a commercial aircraft and the Erieye AEW&C system is defensive in nature.

*Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have been close strategic allies since the early 1970s, when a Pakistani Air Force squadron was deployed in the Saudi kingdom to assist air defense operations. A 2003 defense cooperation agreement has led to contracts to supply Saudi forces with Pakistani-built Al-Khalid tanks, Super Mushhak trainers, armored personnel carriers and Baktar Shikan wire-guided anti-armor missiles.*

Pakistan has always been there to meet the military needs of Saudi Arabia, said Shireen Mazari , the director general of the PISS (Pakistan Institute of Strategic Studies) in Islamabad. The two countries have been for some time sharing intelligence, holding joint military exercises and exchanging defense technology. Most regional analysts believe that the two neighboring states have been fulfilling each others needs; Pakistan supplies defense technology and training, the oil-rich kingdom provides cash.

The Kingdom has always provided big financial support to Pakistan, said Anwar Eshki, chief executive of the Jeddah-based Middle East Center for Strategic and Legal Studies. Saudi officials wish to benefit from Pakistani military expertise and defense technology.

Saudi Arabia also has been the main source of energy to Pakistan, which is another main reason for Islamabad to develop a unique relationship with Riyadh, said Talat Masood, an Islamabad-based defense analyst and a retired Pakistani Army lieutenant general.

Response To Phalcon?

Israeli industry and defense sources could not confirm the existence of talks on a joint Saudi-Pakistani AEW&C procurement deal.

We have no information on these discussions, but it wouldnt surprise me. It sounds like a realistic response to our sale of the Phalcon to India, an Israeli defense official said. He was referring to the $1.1 billion, three-aircraft sale of advanced AEW&C aircraft by Elta Systems to the Indian Air Force, which was concluded in early 2004.

When reporters at the IDEAS event in Karachi asked Pakistans Saadat about Indian-Israeli cooperation, he said, We have no right to object to close relations between India and Israel, but we have concerns and are fully aware of our defense needs.

Sengupta said the prospective Saudi-Pakistani AEW deal could prompt the Indian Air Force to exercise an option to buy an additional three Phalcons from Israel by 2007. In light of the impending acquisition of the Saab/Erieye by Pakistan, it is more or less a foregone conclusion that New Delhi will exercise options for an additional three Israeli AEW aircraft. {I sense Isreali making hard sell indirectly:Arun}

AWACS Alternative

The Israeli official noted that Tel Aviv and its U.S. congressional supporters likely would object to a repeat of the multibillion-dollar U.S. sale to Saudi Arabia of five Boeing 707-based AWACS aircraft, a deal finalized in 1981 after contentious and protracted debate between the executive and legislative branches of the U.S. government.

Deliveries of those aircraft were completed in 1987, and Boeing announced in September 2003 that it had completed a $60 million upgrade to the fleets mission computers and other hardware and software for the Saudi fleet. A Washington industry source who follows U.S. export licensing matters said the U.S. State Department likely would limit any kind of follow-on package that the kingdom might have sought from Boeing and the U.S. Air Force. Getting the data is one thing, but when it comes to acquiring the final synthesized picture, thats where the degree of control is very high, the U.S. source said. The Saudis wont have access to this, and that could be one of the reasons for seeking an alternative.

A European industry source said the U.S. company is in talks with the Saudis about a further round of upgrades on the 707s. Boeing officials say they are unaware of the Saudi-Pakistan discussions with Sweden. But Dave Sloan, a company spokesman, said Boeing continues to support our Saudi customers and are ready to talk to them about any further requirements. But, the European source said, one of the options was to ditch the E-3s and purchase a new system. While the Saab 2000, normally a 50-seat airliner, has shorter range and endurance than a Boeing aircraft, air warfare experts say the Erieye system is highly capable.

Its active, phased-array, electronically scanning and dual-side looking radar has an instrumented range of 450 kilometers and is able to detect multiple fighter-sized targets from 350 kilometers or more. Saab sources defended the choice of aircraft, saying the 2000 has a highly automated glass cockpit and an endurance of up to nine hours.

The Swedes also have also offered the 2000 to Malaysia, competing against the Ericsson-equipped Embraer 145 and the Northrop Grumman E-2 Hawkeye for a four-aircraft, $1 billion sale, a Saab executive said.  Andrew Chuter contributed to this report from London, Riad Kahwaji from Dubai, Gopal Ratnam from Washington, and Pierre Tran from Paris.


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## araz

23march said:


> This article is 4 years old, but just wanted to bring up the point if PAK-Saudi AEW&C deal is still going on? I mean sure it will release financial burden off Pakistan.
> ___________
> Defensenews.com
> 
> Saudi Arabia, Pakistan Eye Joint AEW Buy
> By BARBARA OPALL-ROME,
> 
> 23 march.
> Brother although there are various news around and there may have been some plans in the past, as a general idea, we should stop thinking along the lines of someone buying the stuff that we want to buy just to alleviate our financial burden. Things dont quite work out that way, as every nation has its own defence requirements and priorities.They dont always coincide with ours.
> In any case Saudia has recently had its E3s upgraded by Boeing. I dont see them buying Erieyes simply because their purchases are alwys influenced by US pressure and they will not be allowed to chuck their E3s to buy Erieyes
> My choice of language is intentional to make you understand the pressures that they are put under.
> Regards
> Araz

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## fatman17

*AWACS of The World Directory:*

ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE: 6 Boeing 737-700 Wedgetail aircraft to be delivered between now and 2010. assigned to 42 wing / 2 sqdn based at williamtown, NSW.

BRAZILIZN AIR FORCE: 5 R-99/A AEW aircraft based at Anapolis AB.
3 R-99B (EMB-145RS) remote sensing aircraft.

CHILEAN AIR FORCE: 1 Boeing 707 Phalcon AEW aircraft based at Mataveri Int. Airport.
Beech A99 ELINT airctaft.

PEOPLES LIBERATION ARMY AIR FORCE (CHINA): following the cancellation of the IAI/Beriev A-50I deal in July 2000 due to US pressure, the chinese govt. decided to press on by itself. deliveries of the resulting KJ-2000 to Wuxi Shuofang Airfield began in early 2006, but all four KJ-2000's are now based on Chongming island.
because Ilyushin no longer produces the IL-76 and Beriev has made it more expensive to procure the type, China has taken three IL-76MD transports from the quasi-civil China united airlines (serials B-4040, 4041 and 4043) and converted them to KJ-2000 standard. one a/c is fitted with an in-flight re-fuelling probe. this is presumably the IL-76/A-50I sourced from Russia.

ARAB REPUBLIC OF EGYPT AIRFORCE:4 E-2C Hawkeyes. are being upgraded to Hawkeye 2000 standard.

FRENCH AIR FORCE: 4 E-3F Hawkeyes operating from Avord.
FRENCH NAVY: 2 E-2C Hawkeye 2000. operating from the french aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.

HELLENIC AIR FORCE: 4 EMB-145 AEW&C. even though Greece's a/c have been delivered, they are not fully operational due to delays and integration problems.

INDIAN AIR FORCE: The IAF has two types of AEW on order. the Phalcon equipped A-50Ehl should be delivered in early 2009 after delays of more than a year due to problems with upgrading the IL-76s with stronger airframes and more powerful engines. the first A-50Ehl performed its inagural flight on Nov-2007 and arrived for modification on Jan-2008.
each Phalcon system will cost more than US$500m making the a/c extremely expensive. as a result, India has chosen to develop a smaller more cost effective complement in the form of the Embraer EMB-145 with a locally developed radar. although originally scheduled for delivery in 2010, it seems likely that the EMB-145s will only enter service around 2013.

ISRAEL AIR AND SPACE ARM: 1 G-550 Conformal AEW (CAEW) known as Eitam.
3 G-550 Special Electronic Mission Aircraft (SEMA).

JAPAN AIR SELF DEFENCE: 13 E-2C Hawkeyes. in service with the 601 Hikotai sqdn at Misawa. being upgraded to Hawkeye 2000 standard.
4 Boeing E-767 AWACS.

MEXICAN AIR FORCE: 1 EMB-145 AEW&C.
2 EMB-145 MP maritime patrol.
MEXICAN NAVY: 3 E-2C Hawkeyes (from Israel). re-furbished for counter-narcotics role.
EMB-145 AEW&C.

NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION (NATO): 16 Boeing E-3 Sentry. operation out of MOB Geilenkirchen, Germany.

PAKISTAN AIR FORCE: For a long time Pakistan has attempted to get its own AEW aircraft like its rival India, but this has been a difficult process due to the sanctions which followed the nations nuclear testing. However, after much delay the PAF is to receive five Saab 2000 AWACS at a cost of ~US$ 1.2 billion. the first a/c was rolled out on March 2008, and will be delivered in mid-2009.

RUSSIAN AIR FORCE: Bereiv A-50 Mainstay AEW. upgraded to A-50U and A-50M standards.

ROYAL SAUDI AIR FORCE: 5 Boeing E-3A Sentry. supplanted by 8 KE-3 inflight refuelling tankers.

REPUBLIC OF SINGAPORE AIR FORCE:4 Gulfstream G-550 CAEW in the process of delivery by 2010 to replace the E-2C Hawkeyes.

REPUBLIC OF KOREA AIR FORCE (SOUTH KOREA): 4 Boeing 737 AEW&C aircraft to be delivered between 2011 and 2013.

SWEDISH AIR FORCE: 6 S-100Bs ARGUS. upgraded to S-100D AEW standard.

REPUBLIC OF CHINA AIR FORCE (TAIWAN): 6 E-2C Hawkeyes. 4 E-2T Hawkeyes, 2 E-2K Hawkeyes. all are being upgraded to Hawkeye 2000 standard.

ROYAL THAILAND AIR FORCE: 2 Saab 340s. only one will be converted to AEW standard.

TURKISH AIR FORCE: 4 Boeing 737 AEW&C aircraft. first a/c delivered in 2006.

ROYAL AIR FORCE (UK): 7 Boeing E-3Ds operating from Waddington.
13 AEW Sea Kings.

UNITED STATES AIR FORCE: 34 Boeing E-3s based at Tinker, AFB in Oklahoma. total of 6 AWACS sqdns.
US NAVY: 28 E-2 Hawkeye a/c operating from the Navy's Carrier Wings.
US COAST GUARD: 1 EC-130V Hercules AEW.
US CUSTOMS & BORDER PROTECTION: 8 P-3 AEW&C.

Source: AFM-August-08


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## fatman17

*Pakistan AF Saab 2000 Erieye Now Flight Testing:*
For its maiden flight after Erieye conversion is Saab 2000 SE-045 (c/n 045, ex LY-SBW), the first of these a/c for the PAF. the a/c had been formally rolled out at the swedish airfield at Linkoping on March 2008 and was already in PAF markings, with serial 10045, but these have since been removed while the a/c undertakes its flight test program in Sweden. *later this year a standard Saab 2000, 09019 (c/n 019, ex F-GMVB) will be delivered to the PAF for training and to undertake routine transport tasks.* the remaining Erieye a/c for the PAF will be 10040 (c/n 040, ex F-GMVE), 10049 (c/n 049, ex F-GMVG) and one other, which will be either c/n 023 (ex LY-SBD) or 025 (ex LY-SBC). _SAAB._
_AFM-Aug-08_


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## fatman17

*Saab 100B Argus:*
For more than 25 years Pakistan has been trying to get its own AEW platform and finally succeeded in June 2006 when it signed a deal with Saab. Pakistan will purchase 5 Erieye radar systems mounted on Saab 2000 a/c which are simply larger and powerful versions of the Saab 340. however the Saab 2000 Erieye a/c are vastly different to the S100 series. they feature 5 operator stations and an HES-21 electronic warfare suite that includes laser, radar and missile approach warning sensors and countermeasures dispensers. most significantly the radar has been made more powerful and is now able to detect hovering helicopters and track small naval targets out to 220 miles (350Km). in addition endurance has been increased to nearly 10 hours. the first Saab 2000 Erieye is scheduled for delivery to the PAF in mid 2009.


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## shehbazi2001

Geo is reporting that Pakistan has signed an agreement with China for 4 AWACS aircrafts. Finally its coming.


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## nitesh

shehbazi2001 said:


> Geo is reporting that Pakistan has signed an agreement with China for 4 AWACS aircrafts. Finally its coming.



Are they KJ 2000? Any time line for delivery?


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## Munir

I am not suprised. It is based on Saab2000 evaluation so we will get 4 planes for for the same price as we dumped 2... We now certainly know what Saab 2000 can do and so we can ask almost the same from China..


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## IceCold

*China to provide Pakistan four AWACS aircrafts​*
Updated at: 1512 PST, Friday, September 05, 2008
ISLAMABAD: Air Chief Marshall Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed on Friday said China would provide four AWACS aircrafts to Pakistan for the purpose of aerial surveillance, adding an agreement in this regard has been signed by the two countires.

Talking to Geo News, he said talks were also underway to purchase FC-20 aircrafts from China and added 30 to 40 planes would be provided to Pakistan under the agreement signed by China and Pakistan. 

Air chief Marshall further said four such aircrafts were being also acquired from Sweden for aerial surveillance.

China to provide Pakistan four AWACS aircrafts - GEO.tv

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## was

Zardari to visit China on 9th as president

Friday, September 05, 2008

By Qudssia Akhlaque

ISLAMABAD: PPP Co-chairman and presidential hopeful Asif Ali Zardari, who is expected to win hands down on Saturday, is all set to embark on a visit to China within 72 hours of his election as the head of the state.

If all goes as expected, Asif Ali Zardari will go on his first foreign trip to China as the 12th president of the country on Sept 9, sources told The News on Thursday. Pakistans permanent representative to the UN in Geneva, Masood Khan, who has been nominated as Pakistans new ambassador to China, also arrived here on Sunday. Reportedly, Masood Khan is here for consultations on the planned visit and there are indications that he may leave for Beijing ahead of Zardaris arrival there.

Zardari was invited by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) to the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympic Games last month and was to lead the delegation. However, he changed his plan due to a move by the ruling alliance to impeach President Musharraf. Instead, his son and PPP Chairman Bilawal Bhutto Zardari, who was also invited by the CCP, represented the party at the opening ceremony.

Amid speculations that all is not so well on the Pakistan-China front, the planned Zardari visit would send a strong signal to Beijing and the world community of the high priority Pakistan accords to its relations with China. It also gains importance as Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani had visited the US before China.

The planned Zardari trip may also be an attempt to blunt the growing criticism that there is a shift in the PPP governments policy towards China and that it is distancing itself from Pakistans most-trusted ally.

Symbolically, too, the visit would have immense value, as the founder of the ruling PPP, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, was the actual architect of the Pakistan-China relations. However, in substantive terms it is to be seen what comes out of the trip. As Pakistan is on the verge of an economic default, there are hints that Pakistan may be turning again to China for help. A top bureaucrat in Islamabad who has been dealing with China sounded confident that China could help Pakistan get over its economic difficulties. There are signals that as a goodwill gesture, China may bail out Pakistan financially as it has done twice in the last one year or so.

Brushing aside rumours that the Chinese were not too happy with Pakistan, as Beijing felt Islamabad was sidelining it, a former Pakistani ambassador to China noted: China and Pakistan relations are too deep-rooted to be derailed.

In a recent interview to a private TV channel, Zardari had underscored the importance Pakistan attached to its relations with China and pointed out that late Zulfikar Ali Bhutto had laid the foundation of this relationship.

this the only think of zardari i liked 
i think he will sign the deal for awacs


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## Nomi929

No name mentioned.

Anybody got idea Which AWACS aircraft pakistan gonna Buy?


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## was

it is this?

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/images/y8-special-purposes_07large.jpg

or this
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/images/y8aew_01large.jpg


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## Myth_buster_1

Nomi929 said:


> No name mentioned.
> 
> Anybody got idea Which AWACS aircraft pakistan gonna Buy?



the platform will be a newer version of Y-8 "ZDK-03" with better crew comfort etc, and Erieye type blade on the top.. Erieye and ZDK-03 AEW&CS will have their own specialty.. Erieye will be a true multi role platform with the detecting capability for naval, land, and aerial targets while Y-8 will be a merely air to air AEW@CS with better air2air detection capability...


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## Myth_buster_1

was said:


> Zardari to visit China on 9th as president
> 
> this the only think of zardari i liked
> i think he will sign the deal for awacs



dhuuuhh.. he is looking for his 10%! but this time he will be caught with his pants down..


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## fatman17

23march said:


> the platform will be a newer version of Y-8 "ZDK-03" with better crew comfort etc, and Erieye type blade on the top.. Erieye and ZDK-03 AEW&CS will have their own specialty.. Erieye will be a true multi role platform with the detecting capability for naval, land, and aerial targets while Y-8 will be a merely air to air AEW@CS with better air2air detection capability...



DAWN is reporting that Pakistan and China have signed deal for supply of 4 AEW&C a/c to PAF. this has been confirmed by ACM T.Mahmood.


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## fatman17

4 ERIEYE and 4 Chinese AEW&C makes 8 a/c in total. this puts the US offer of 3 Hawkeye-2000 installed on P-3H a/c on the back-burner or history?


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## Owais

this is KJ-200 Cub/High New 5


This is KJ-2000 Mainring


2 types of KJ-2000: Chinese domestic airborne warning and control system (AWACS) Modified from Yun 8



*why we are not going for KJ 2000? what advantages Y8/KJ200 Have on KJ2000??*


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## IceCold

Owais said:


> this is KJ-200 Cub/High New 5
> 
> 
> This is KJ-2000 Mainring
> 
> 
> 2 types of KJ-2000: Chinese domestic airborne warning and control system (AWACS) Modified from Yun 8
> 
> 
> 
> *why we are not going for KJ 2000? what advantages Y8/KJ200 Have on KJ2000??*



For one the Y-8/kj200 is a turbo prop which is cheap to maintain as compared to any jet engine and second its quite similar to the SAAB erieye which Pakistan will induct, so it seems to be the best bet.


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## Munir

I would still love to see longer range BVR on AEW+C platform... But surely looks potent to me.. Somehow it looks more inpressive then the Saab2000. About time we see some specifications...

Any hopes with more potent planes from the US if Zardari gets the seat?


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## shehbazi2001

Till now we have been reading about BVR missiles on fighters only and have read of fighters or attack aircraft performing the duties of bomb truck.

But things may change in future........like bomb truck, we may see missile trucks.......one USAF future project involves B-1 Bomber armed with 20-30 BVR missiles with the capability to wipe out large formations of fighters........

This idea was presented in the History Channel program DOGFIGHTS in their last episode *"Future Dogfights".*

Therefore, the AWACS may very well become missile trucks in future alongwith the traditional bombers like B-1 becoming air-to-air BVR missile trucks..........


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## Spring Onion

Hey there was a news today the China is going to give Pakistan a couple of AWACS .

Details ??


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## Imran Khan

i get only on jang news air chef marshal say we sign a deal that we get 4 AWACS from chaina


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## was

India faces secret Saudi-Pakistan defense alliance
Prabeer Hazarika
Mar. 23, 2005

If and when Pakistan decides to attack India again, India will face much more severe threat than before. According to international think tanks, Saudi Arabia is in secret defense alliance with Pakistan to help the Pakistanis against the Indians.

The PAF has no AWACS but is suspected to have trained on AWACS operational with the Saudi Air Force. The Saudis are barred from transferring these aircraft systems to other countries, but it's possible that in any future India-Pak conflict these could be made available to Pakistan, giving it perhaps a decisive edge on the battlefield. Alternatively, the Saudis could fly it and since it will be over Pakistani air space, nobody would really know

The secret pact between Saudis and Pakistan makes Pakistan, a nuclear power protector for the Saudis against any other nuclear power like America or Israel. In return, Saudis plan to provide secret access of sophisticated American Arms and technology to Pakistan to defeat India in the next war.

Civilian and military targets in Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat are within minutes flying distance from Pakistani missile sites giving Indian defences very little margin to detect, identify, intercept and destroy the missile Saudis may secretly help Pakistan in electronic jamming of Indian radar and communication system.

The long-range Shaheen missile can now hit targets in depth in central and western India 

The PAF's F-16s are old but still capable of delivering a range of deadly ordnance including nuclear bombs. The new F16s still in possible pipeline can add to the capabilities. These F16s with secret Saudi AWACS can be initially difficult to fight.

India understands these strategic defense loopholes. To counteract, India is moving to plug the gaps in its air defences. While an indigenous dedicated military satellite is coming soon, India is acquiring an unspecified number of AWACS that will be integrated into a sophisticated ground-based network of radars for ballistic missile defence.



Where India shines and can be deadly for the enemy is the satellite controlled guidance capabilities. India is also secretly developing capabilities that will make India own the Pakistan Airspace within a day of any full-fledged war between India and Pakistan.*India is pursuing indigenous technologies that will make India the most powerful nation in Asia*.

i know it,s an old article but it is FUNNY 

IndiaDaily - India faces secret Saudi-Pakistan defense alliance


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## Owais

was said:


> India faces secret Saudi-Pakistan defense alliance



*Not morethan a Propaganda*



> The PAF has no AWACS but is suspected to have trained on AWACS operational with the Saudi Air Force. The Saudis are barred from transferring these aircraft systems to other countries, but it's possible that in any future India-Pak conflict these could be made available to Pakistan, giving it perhaps a decisive edge on the battlefield. Alternatively, the Saudis could fly it and since it will be over Pakistani air space, nobody would really know



Yea nobody knows except Prabeer Hazarika




> Civilian and military targets in Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat are within minutes flying distance from Pakistani missile sites giving Indian defences very little margin to detect, identify, intercept and destroy the missile Saudis may secretly help Pakistan in electronic jamming of Indian radar and communication system.



same capability posses by IA




> The PAF's F-16s are old but still capable of delivering a range of deadly ordnance including nuclear bombs. The new F16s still in possible pipeline can add to the capabilities. These F16s with secret Saudi AWACS can be initially difficult to fight.



and they are getting 230 super duper MKI to defend their homeland against 18 new F16 and 50+ old MLUs! 




> Where India shines and can be deadly for the enemy is the satellite controlled guidance capabilities. India is also secretly developing capabilities that will make India own the Pakistan Airspace within a day of any full-fledged war between India and Pakistan.



yea making failed satellite launching tests will make India shines in satellite controlled guidance capabilities. Very Funny!


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## indiapakistanfriendship

Dear Was and Owais how do you think your posts above have contributed anything to understanding Pakistani AWACS and systems.

IPF


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## was

The &#8220;Gaoxin 5&#8221; project is an airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft equipped *with a linear-shape active electronically steered array (AESA) radar similar to the Swedish Ericsson PS-890 Erieye*. The development programme possibly began in the late 1990s, with a prototype based on the Y-8F200 airframe first flying in November 2001. A second prototype based on the newer Y-8F600 airframe first flew in January 2005, but was lost during an air crash on 4 June 2006.

The KJ-200 AEW system is based on the Y-8F600 platform, which is also known as &#8220;Category-III Platform&#8221;. (The Category-I and -II platforms refer to the non-pressurised basic variant Y-8 and pressurised Y-8C respectively) The aircraft is fitted with Western avionics for improved performance. The development of the airframe has been carried out jointly by Shaanxi Aircraft Industry (Group) Co. and the Antonov Design Bureau of Ukraine. Improvements on Y-8F600 include:

* A two-man cockpit fitted with modernised avionics including U.S. Honeywell navigation system
* Removal of the &#8216;glass-in&#8217; nose to provide additional space for mission equipment
* Four Pratt and Whitney Canada PW150B turboprop engines with British Dodi R-408 six-blade propellers
* Increased take-off weight and range
* Mission equipment pods on wingtips, vertical fin tip and nose

"Gaoxin Project" - Y-8 Electronic Warfare Aircraft - SinoDefence.com


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## Imran Khan

was said:


> India faces secret Saudi-Pakistan defense alliance
> Prabeer Hazarika
> Mar. 23, 2005
> 
> 
> The long-range Shaheen missile can now hit targets in depth in central and western India
> 
> . These F16s with secret Saudi AWACS can be initially difficult to fight.
> 
> -.*India is pursuing indigenous technologies that will make India the most powerful nation in Asia*.[/COLOR]
> 
> 
> 
> IndiaDaily - India faces secret Saudi-Pakistan defense alliance




if you have free time read this 

but saudi pakistan are deep in defence cooperation

poor sceare and asian super power dreaming nation


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## fatman17

imran khan said:


> if you have free time read this
> 
> but saudi pakistan are deep in defence cooperation
> 
> poor sceare and asian super power dreaming nation



this guy (writer) is hallucinating in my opinion!


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## Munir

I doubt the Saui work lot together with PAF. Looking just wat they bought in the past it had hardly to do anything with consultations with PAF or logical decission. Tornado's, Hawks, F15's.... I just do not see any advantage for PAF.


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## Nomi929

In his latest interview @ Dawn News.

ACM didn't said anything that Chinese AWACS contract is signed.


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> this guy (writer) is hallucinating in my opinion!



sir realy i am like this

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&#1582;&#1591;&#1575;&#1747; &#1581;&#1587; &#1705;&#1740; &#1705;&#1740;&#1601;&#1740;&#1578; &#1740;&#1575; &#1606;&#1601;&#1587;&#1740;&#1575;&#1578;&#1740; &#1605;&#1585;&#1590; &#1548; &#1601;&#1585;&#1740;&#1576; &#1581;&#1587; (Illusion) &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1705;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1711; &#1670;&#1740;&#1586; &#1729;&#1746; &#1548; &#1601;&#1585;&#1740;&#1576; &#1581;&#1587; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1576;&#1726;&#1740; &#1581;&#1587;&#1740;&#1722; &#1583;&#1585;&#1587;&#1578; &#1575;&#1601;&#1593;&#1575;&#1604; &#1575;&#1583;&#1575; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1705;&#1585; &#1662;&#1575;&#1578;&#1740;&#1722; &#1605;&#1711;&#1585; &#1575;&#1587; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1705;&#1608;&#1574;&#1740; &#1576;&#1740;&#1585;&#1608;&#1606;&#1740; &#1605;&#1581;&#1585;&#1705; (stimulus) &#1590;&#1585;&#1608;&#1585; &#1605;&#1608;&#1580;&#1608;&#1583; &#1729;&#1608;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1608;&#1729; &#1581;&#1587; &#1575;&#1587; &#1705;&#1608; &#1594;&#1604;&#1591; &#1591;&#1608;&#1585; &#1662;&#1585; &#1605;&#1581;&#1587;&#1608;&#1587; &#1705;&#1585;&#1578;&#1740; &#1729;&#1746; &#1740;&#1575; &#1740;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1729; &#1604;&#1740;&#1722; &#1705;&#1729; &#1601;&#1585;&#1740;&#1576; &#1740;&#1575; &#1583;&#1726;&#1608;&#1705;&#1729; &#1705;&#1726;&#1575; &#1580;&#1575;&#1578;&#1740; &#1729;&#1746;&#1748; &#1575;&#1587;&#1705;&#1740; &#1575;&#1740;&#1705; &#1605;&#1579;&#1575;&#1604; &#1589;&#1581;&#1585;&#1575; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1587;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576; &#1705;&#1608; &#1583;&#1740;&#1705;&#1726;&#1606;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1580;&#1587; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1575;&#1740;&#1705; &#1576;&#1740;&#1585;&#1608;&#1606;&#1740; &#1605;&#1581;&#1585;&#1705; &#1740;&#1593;&#1606;&#1740; &#1585;&#1608;&#1588;&#1606;&#1740; &#1705;&#1740; &#1605;&#1608;&#1580;&#1740;&#1722; &#1605;&#1608;&#1580;&#1608;&#1583; &#1578;&#1608; &#1729;&#1608;&#1578;&#1740; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1604;&#1740;&#1705;&#1606; &#1606;&#1592;&#1585; &#1705;&#1740; &#1581;&#1587; &#1575;&#1606; &#1587;&#1746; &#1583;&#1726;&#1608;&#1705;&#1729; &#1705;&#1726;&#1575; &#1705;&#1585; &#1585;&#1740;&#1578; &#1705;&#1608; &#1662;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740; &#1705;&#1746; &#1591;&#1608;&#1585; &#1662;&#1585; &#1662;&#1740;&#1588; &#1705;&#1585;&#1578;&#1740; &#1729;&#1746;&#1548; &#1601;&#1585;&#1740;&#1576; &#1581;&#1587; &#1705;&#1608; &#1593;&#1575;&#1605; &#1591;&#1608;&#1585; &#1662;&#1585; &#1601;&#1585;&#1740;&#1576; &#1606;&#1592;&#1585; &#1576;&#1726;&#1740; &#1705;&#1729;&#1575; &#1580;&#1575;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746;&#1748;


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## shehbazi2001

*Vulnerability of AEW and Refuellers*

Here there was some discussion in the Inflight Refuellers thread regarding them being easy targets. The same perhaps applies to AEW but to a lesser degree because an AEW shall be aware of incoming fighters with good time margin to execute defensive plans.

AEW and ground-based radars shall also be key to the safety of inflight refuellers.

AEW and A2A Refueller would certainly require Escort coverage. This is yet another reason for having a good BVR A2A inventory ie escort capability for AEW and Refuellers.

An AEW/AWACS with Electronic warfare capability can better defend itself against fighters.

With its jamming capability, it can jam the seeker heads of incoming radar-guided BVR missiles and if jamming power is enough, can even degrade the performance of Air Intercept (AI) radars of the fighters themselves.

But there are other scenarios to consider too......like

An AEW being a great source of radiation can become a target of anti-radiation air-to-air missiles and one with jamming capability can be a target of A2A missile with home-on-jam guidance.

Survival shall then depend upon the skill of AEW operators and their capability to recognise the guidance method of an incoming missile and counter-act accordingly.

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## Myth_buster_1

View attachment 5a5d1a03576b6c90ceb7e21c7f973201.jpg










Saab-2000 erieye is dam sexy lookin plane

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## IceCold

23march said:


> Saab-2000 erieye is dam sexy lookin plane



I see now why indians are so jealous about it specially when compared to that ugly mama of theirs called the phalcon.

Strictly speaking we need these birds as urgently as possible specially after the situation that has risen on our borders.


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## was




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## Imran Khan

ohhhhhhh its locks great man i love these pic thanks for share


----------



## was

India & Pakistan AEW Options

Unfortunately, since the partition of the old Imperial India into India and Pakistan, the two countries have been either at war, recovering from war or at peace but with both sides preparing for the next war and sadly there seems little likelihood that this cycle will be broken in the near future.
Beriev A-50 Mainstay

In Apr 00 Russia caused consternation in Pakistan when they detached two Russian Beriev A-50 Mainstay AEW aircraft to operate from an Indian Air Force base, during a lengthy demonstration of AEW capabilities to Indian Air Force personnel. Although both India and Pakistan have long recognised the benefits of operating an AWACS aircraft, cost and more importantly, actual availability always mitigated against either country being the first to actually operate these force-multipliers. America, aware of how easily an AEW Race could be started, always rebuffed any attempt by the countries to purchase either the E-2C Hawkeye or the E-3A Sentry. Russia initially appeared more willing to allow India to upset the military balance in the area by offering them the Beriev A-50 Mainstay. However, the deal fell through, either because Russia was unwilling to agree to the technology transfer necessary to allow the IAF to operate and maintain the aircraft or because Russia wanted too high a price for what India perceived as essentially a first generation AEW system and one that was markedly inferior to either American aircraft.
IAI Phalcon

Consequently, on 11 Aug 03 it was something of a surprise when the US State Department announced that it had no objections to the sale of the Phalcon system to India. Following detailed negotiations, on 5 Mar 04 the Indian Ministry of Defence and Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI) finally signed a deal worth up to $1.1 billion for the supply of three Phalcon AEW systems installed on Il-76MD Candid aircraft. The US agreeing to the sale of the Phalcon system was a surprise because in the past, other than the sale of one Phalcon equipped 707 to Chile, America has blocked Israeli ambitions to sell the Phalcon system elsewhere  most notably China. As production of the Il-76MD Candid aircraft ceased some time ago, the 3 Indian aircraft are expected to be sourced from the Tashkent factory in Uzbekistan, where a number of surplus incomplete airframes are available for disposal. The airframes will be flown from Tashkent to the Irkut Corporation facility at Irkutsk, where, along with some structural modifications, they will be completed and more powerful Aviadvigatel PS-90A will replace the standard D-30KP-2 turbofans. Then the completed aircraft will be flown to the IAI factory in Israel for the installation of the Phalcon radar system.
IAI Stratus Aerostat

The exact specification of the Indian Phalcon system is unknown, but it has certainly been developed considerably from the version sold to Chile in 1994. Whether the Indian Air Force will be supplied with the full-strength Phalcon, equipped with a phased-array radar, phased-array IFF, ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT, which functions as a sophisticated intelligence gathering, as well as AEW aircraft, remains to be seen. The Phalcon system is believed to be capable of tracking up to 60 targets at ranges between 435-500 miles, giving the Indian Air Force the ability to survey large areas of Pakistan from within Indian airspace. Currently, the first aircraft is scheduled to be delivered in Dec 07, followed by the second nine months later and the last aircraft around Apr 09. Israel has also agreed to supply India with high-resolution pictures from its Ofeq-5 photo-reconnaissance satellite of the Kashmir region and the line of control area between India and Pakistan. Finally, in 2003, Israel sold India a number of Aerostat balloons, equipped with phased array radars that are permanently deployed along the border with Pakistan.

India has also decided to spend $400 million reviving its indigenous AEW system. This project was cancelled in 1999 when their HS-748 test platform crashed after the rotordome collapsed into the fuselage and then fell off  the crash killed the three crew and five of the key project scientists who were also on board. Rather than attempt another rotordome mounted radar, this time the Indian Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) will try and develop a smaller electronic phased-array radar, that can be mounted on the top of the fuselage of a small business jet, similar to the Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar that currently equips the SAAB Argus AEW&C and Embraer EMB-145SA. Other unconfirmed reports indicate that India has already ordered five Embraer EMB-145 aircraft from Brazil for $200 million on which to mount the radar.

SAAB 2000

However, given events in India, Pakistan has quickly responded to its own lack of an effective AEW&C aircraft. Currently Pakistan is negotiating with SAAB to acquire six Erieye equipped SAAB 2000 AEW&C aircraft. Talks on the financial and technical aspects of the contract are continuing, but agreement in principle has already been established, although the exact timescales have yet to be announced. The Swedish Argus AEW&C was based on the SAAB 340 which went out of production in 1999. Consequently, for Pakistan the Erieye radar will be mounted on the larger, but very similar SAAB 2000 airframe  integrating the Erieye radar system should be fairly straightforward in this larger airframe. Pakistan considered ordering the Embraer EMB-145SA, but decided that, as well as being more expensive, the aircraft lacked the necessary altitude performance to cope with the hot & high conditions in Pakistan.

Powered by two Allison/Rolls-Royce AE2100 engines, the SAAB 2000 can remain airborne for nine hours at 30,000ft, a significant improvement on the GE-CT7-98 powered SAAB 340 Argus. Although the SAAB 2000 also went out of production in 1999, SAAB has sufficient aircraft in its inventory to complete this order. Sweden is also considering replacing the SAAB 340 Argus with the SAAB 2000 Erieye system, as the larger internal volume of this airframe allows for the installation of additional control consoles and communications equipment  allowing the aircraft to be employed as a much more effective airborne command & control post.

Progress in Indias programme to acquire an indigenous AWACS capability appear to have hit a major stumbling block in 2006, with the Indian Air Force (IAF) stating publicly that the Indian Defence Research and Development Organisations *(DRDO) $500 million 2004 project to design and develop an AWACS system, currently fails to meet the requirements for a system that can be deployed to support all three military services as necessary.*

The Indian Air Force is the lead service for this project and appears to be taking a hard line with the DRDO - in their view there appear to be two main problems with the programme. The first seems to centre around the performance of the Embraer EMB-145 platform that was chosen to carry the DRDO developed phased array radar. It now appears that with the radar mounted above the fuselage, the aircraft cannot fly for 10 plus hours above 40,000ft, which are the minimum requirement for the defence forces. The second objection focussed on the DRDO developed phased array radar which apparently only has a range of 300km and an area coverage of 240 degrees  both less than required.

The IAF now wants the DRDO to work closer with them to ensure that the revised technical parameters set for the programme meet the customers requirements. The technical parameters should be completed by mid-2007, but the likely in-service date will slip from 2012 to 2016  a considerable delay. This delay is a considerable blow to the Indian plan to be able to deploy up to three aircraft in support of their armed forces. Perhaps initially *there was a degree of over-confidence on the part of the DRDO who clearly believed they could develop a phased-array radar, with similar performance to the Ericssons PS-890 Erieye radar that is mounted on the SAAB100B Argus, in a very challenging timescale*. *This is the second time that the DRDO has suffered a setback in their attempts to develop an indigenous AWACS capability, following the crash of an ill-judged experimental AEW HS-748 and it now appears they have again decided to use an unsuitable aircraft for the task. Despite these setbacks, never mind the cost involved, India is determined to develop their own AWACS capability, however, whether it will actually ever be as capable and cost-effective as an off-the-shelf SAAB 2000 with an Erieye radar, that Pakistan is purchasing, remains to be seen.*

Over the last 30 years, many countries have attempted to develop indigenous AEW radar and their associated systems  until the arrival of the Erieye and Phalcon systems, only the USA and USSR really succeeded. Given the financial and technical difficulties involved in developing an indigenous AEW&C capability,* Pakistan's decision appears well founded and in the long term may well result in a much more cost-effective and capable system than the recent decision in India may eventually deliver - only time will tell.*

India & Pakistan AEW Options

has pia ordered the saab 2000???


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## Neo

AFAIK PIA has dropped plans to introduce Saab 2000 in her fleet, instead we're using ATR-42's on low density airfields.

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## Imran Khan

totally garbage who they write like this


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## Munir

Neo said:


> AFAIK PIA has dropped plans to introduce Saab 2000 in her fleet, instead we're using ATR-42's on low density airfields.



The reason was that it was a lot cheaper... And I mean a lot! There is a report on Nooman's site. Anyway, I would have expected a high attached wing (dust/rocks/mud/hilly, high tail etc etc) to be suited for those flights and for an awacss it is better to have a low mounted wing.... (obstruction view of the radar)


Here...
http://www.pakistaniaviation.com/photo_pia_saab_2000_may2004.htm



















Excellent work Nooman!

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## shehbazi2001

One thing I want to know about Swedish AEW radar Erieye is,

"Can two Erieye aircrafts operate in bi-static mode??"

Normal radars that we discuss have Transmitter and Receiver in one antenna, called monostatic radars. Monostatic radars either use a single antenna for Transmitter and Receiver or both antennae are very close ie in same location.

In a bi-static radar, transmitter antenna and Receiver antenna are separated by a certain distance. This technique beats the old Stealth Technology like that of F-117 completely and reduces the effectiveness of current stealth to some degree. 

F-117's skin used to divert the radar waves away from Receiver antenna of the monostatic radar. With Bi-static radar, F-117 can easily be detected because the scattering of waves actually helps in detection, especially when more than one Receiver Antennae are used.

If Erieyes can operate in bi-static mode, meaning that one aircraft sends out the waves and other aircraft receives the reflected waves, with both aircraft separated by some distance, then we can achieve the capability to detect stealth bombers like F-117 at least.

The stealth technology of B-2 is more advanced and is different than that of F-117 and its counter is yet to be implemented.


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## shchinese

I feel really angry when I read the word "sell" here in this thread. WTF. There are dozens of countries to which the Chinese AWACS/AEWAs could potentially be sold, however why those stupid Chinese still want to sell the AWACS/AEWAs to Pakistan? 

A far more better approach is to work with Pakistan engineers to make sure both Pakistan and China can build as many such AWACS/AEWAs as necessary. 

Please just look the three different Chinese AWACS/AEWAs, the KJ-2000 is the best, however it requires the il-76 airframe, which still couldn't be built by China/Pakistan. Let's forget about it, nothing much we can do in the coming short term. But hey, the Y-8 Rotodome is better than the KJ-200 and almost all parts are designed/build in China. WTF, why there is still no joint project between China/Pakistan for making the Y-8 Rotodome better? 

Same for the J-10 fighters, it would **** me to tears if any money is involved for the "sales". There are just too many stupid Chinese businessmen in my country that only have money in their brain.

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## Myth_buster_1

shchinese said:


> I feel really angry when I read the word "sell" here in this thread. WTF. There are dozens of countries to which the Chinese AWACS/AEWAs could potentially be sold, however why those stupid Chinese still want to sell the AWACS/AEWAs to Pakistan?
> 
> A far more better approach is to work with Pakistan engineers to make sure both Pakistan and China can build as many such AWACS/AEWAs as necessary.
> 
> Please just look the three different Chinese AWACS/AEWAs, the KJ-2000 is the best, however it requires the il-76 airframe, which still couldn't be built by China/Pakistan. Let's forget about it, nothing much we can do in the coming short term. But hey, the Y-8 Rotodome is better than the KJ-200 and almost all parts are designed/build in China. WTF, why there is still no joint project between China/Pakistan for making the Y-8 Rotodome better?
> 
> Same for the J-10 fighters, it would **** me to tears if any money is involved for the "sales".



take it easy buddy... JF-17, MBT-2000/Al-Khalid, Y-8/ZDK-03 AEW&CS, etc are all joint ventures.. its just the begging of PAK-China cooperations.. 



> There are just too many stupid Chinese businessmen in my country that only have money in their brain.



unfortunately we have corrupt politicians who are western puppets which is also hindering pak-china full scale cooperations.. once this War on Terror is over then i think cooperations will hit full scale..

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## shchinese

23march said:


> take it easy buddy... JF-17, MBT-2000/Al-Khalid, Y-8/ZDK-03 AEW&CS, etc are all joint ventures.. its just the begging of PAK-China cooperations..



 Y-8/ZDK-03 AEW&CS is joint venture? great! the best news I have ever heard in this month. I checked several sources like sinodefence.com, but none of them mentioned that fact. anyway, my mistake. 

The Y-8/ZDK-03 AEW&CS project is not an easy one, 40 engineers/scientists got killed during the 2006 accident. Hope such heavy price can be paid off when the outcome of the project is fully applied in our defense forces. 

btw: if they really want to "sell" the Y-8/ZDK-03 AEW&CS and J-10 to Pakistan, $1 is a reasonable unit price for me.


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## Myth_buster_1

shchinese said:


> Y-8/ZDK-03 AEW&CS is joint venture? great! the best news I have ever heard in this month. I checked several sources like sinodefence.com, but none of them mentioned that fact. anyway, my mistake.
> 
> The Y-8/ZDK-03 AEW&CS project is not an easy one, 40 engineers/scientists got killed during the 2006 accident. Hope such heavy price can be paid off when the outcome of the project is fully applied in our defense forces.



i am not so sure but i think the export version of ZDK-03 is a joint venture but i do know that the pak version of ZDK-03 is a joint venture..


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## Munir

India paid high price for 3 AWACS planes from Israel: Expert 

New Delhi, Sept 14: Finding fault with the existing acquisition system for the armed forces, a former senior Army officer has said these drawbacks have led India to pay much more for purchases as in the deal to acquire three AWACS aircraft from Israel in 2004. 

"India has failed to negotiate full-proof agreements with clearly defined provisions...In almost all contracts, imprecise and flawed provisions led to multiple interpretations during the implementation stage," Maj Gen (Retd) Mrinal Suman, who was associated with procurement procedures and offsets while in service, said. 

He quoted reports in the Israeli press as saying that "India paid more than double the amount for the purchase of three AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) aircraft from Israel in March 2004." 

These aircraft, he said, were earlier being sold to China for USD 358 million but the deal had to be aborted under US pressure. 

"Subsequently, India agreed to buy them for USD 1.1 billion, a whopping USD 742 million more than the price agreed to by the Chinese," Suman said in an article in the latest issue of 'Indian Defence Review'. 

Noting that there were "numerous" instances where India paid "exorbitant amounts" for defence equipment, he referred to the coffin scam and said "inability to negotiate contracts astutely has been the biggest weakness of the entire defence procurement regime." 

Invariably, it was India that suffered "as the vendors exploit ambiguities in the contract language, especially with respect to delivery schedules, warranties, after sales support and penalties for default," Suman, who retired as Technical Manager (Land Systems) in the Defence Ministry's acquisition wing, said. 

Zee News - India 3 AWACS planes Israel


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## ejaz007

*Saab 2000 AEW&C prepares for duty*
By David Donald
July 14, 2008

On April 30, Saab achieved a significant milestone with the first flight of the Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, developed under Project Horizon for the Pakistan air force. The two-hour flight from Linköping, Sweden, was used to check out general handling and aircraft systems, and encountered no problems. The maiden flight came a month after the aircraft was officially rolled out in front of Pakistani commanders.

Pakistan first contemplated the acquisition of an AEW system in the early 1980s, when Soviet and Afghan air force aircraft regularly intruded into Pakistani airspace. Other priorities, and the later U.S. arms embargo, meant that the requirement went unfulfilled. However, events in the wake of the 9/11 terrorist attacksplus ongoing tensions with Indiaplaced renewed emphasis on the AEW requirement.

Pakistan selected the Erieye in 2005 and later revised the initial requirement for six platforms to five as a cost-reduction measure. It is buying a complete surveillance package, including ground-based systems, logistics support and mission training systems.

The Saab 2000 AEW&C is the latest iteration of the Saab Microwave Systems Erieye concept. The five-operator system has increased command and control capabilities, including the Swedish Link-E system.

The radar itself, which consists of 192 transmit/receive modules, has been improved with an extended early warning mode and the ability to spot hovering helicopters. Coverage has been increased to two 150-degree sectors (from 120-degrees, still with a 1-degree beamwidth), with range out to the horizon (typically 199 to 217 miles). The radar offers a fully fused air/sea capability, and can spot maritime targets as small as jet-skis.

Virtually all of the radar components have been replaced since the Erieye was first fielded in 1996, and all of the computer systems are COTS-based for cost-effective and rapid upgrade. Power output is around 20 percent greater than it was previously, although power requirements, and thus cooling, for the mission system have decreased by 30 percent. The effects of improvement can also be seen in a 53-percent reduction in system weight and 78-percent reduction in floor space. At the same time, computing power has increased a hundredfold.

Backing up the radar is a sophisticated Saab Avitronics HES-21 ESM/protection suite that uses interferometer antennas and digital receivers for highly accurate tracking and ranging of emitters. HES-21 data is fused with that from the radar to provide detailed tracking, and it can generate its own tracks at ranges greater than that possible with the radar. The system also includes a comprehensive self-protection function, automatically controlling the launch of chaff and flares.

Commuter on Patrol
The choice of basing Erieye on a regional airliner has obvious benefits in terms of high reliability, cost-efficiency and low maintenance requirements, but also offers significant mission benefits. The types hot-and-high performance is critical in the Pakistani operational environment. The aircraft has a balanced field length of 4,593 feet, allowing it to use many small airports, and it can reach 25,000 feet in 16 minutes.

Mission endurance is nine to 10 hours thanks to extra tanks in the cabin, and it can operate at up to 30,000 feet. At cruise power, the aircraft flies at about 340 knots, impressive for a turboprop. Using a 60-degree bank, the aircraft can complete a 180-degree turn at the end of a racetrack pattern in less than 30 seconds, with little interruption in track coverage.

Crew comfort is a consideration for long-endurance patrols, and through its active noise cancellation system, the Saab 2000 offers very low cabin noise levels. A 7,500-foot cabin pressure can be maintained at operational altitude. The Pakistani aircraft have a galley and rest area, with a mission display in the latter so that resting crew can stay informed of emerging situations. The flight deck is a very modern airliner-style working environment, with a six-tube Collins ProLine 4 electronic flight information system.

Erieye Conversions
Saab Aerotech performs conversions in its facilities at Linköping. For the first aircraft, the work took less than a year to complete. The conversion comprises several airframe structural modifications, including strengthening the upper rear fuselage to mount the Erieye radar.

The sensor is mounted higher than on the Saab 340 so it can see over the longer wings of the Saab 2000. The vertical fin is enlarged and strengthened to offset the aerodynamic effects of the radar and its support struts, while the wingtips are rebuilt and reinforced to carry antennas and chaff dispensers. The belly fairing is reworked and enlarged to mount elements of the self-protection system.

Although the aircraft are pre-owned, structural life is not a factor. The airliner was designed with an initial structural life of 75,000 hours, and on average, the fleet has used less than 20 percent. Based on typical use rates, the remaining life of the AEW&C is more than 35 years, with options for further re-lifing. Modification work on the second aircraft was already under way at the time of the rollout. 

Saab 2000 AEW&C prepares for duty: AINonline

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## Imran Khan

great news milestone in our PAF history

god bless them and keep them safe and suscesful always

amen

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## p2prada

shehbazi2001 said:


> One thing I want to know about Swedish AEW radar Erieye is,
> 
> "Can two Erieye aircrafts operate in bi-static mode??"
> 
> Normal radars that we discuss have Transmitter and Receiver in one antenna, called monostatic radars. Monostatic radars either use a single antenna for Transmitter and Receiver or both antennae are very close ie in same location.
> 
> In a bi-static radar, transmitter antenna and Receiver antenna are separated by a certain distance. This technique beats the old Stealth Technology like that of F-117 completely and reduces the effectiveness of current stealth to some degree.
> 
> F-117's skin used to divert the radar waves away from Receiver antenna of the monostatic radar. With Bi-static radar, F-117 can easily be detected because the scattering of waves actually helps in detection, especially when more than one Receiver Antennae are used.
> 
> If Erieyes can operate in bi-static mode, meaning that one aircraft sends out the waves and other aircraft receives the reflected waves, with both aircraft separated by some distance, then we can achieve the capability to detect stealth bombers like F-117 at least.
> 
> The stealth technology of B-2 is more advanced and is different than that of F-117 and its counter is yet to be implemented.





All AESA have a bi-static mode. But the principle is completely different cause no WAVES are used. Only BEAMS
Actually AESA are MULTISTATIC cause of the many t/r modules used on a single surface. So, they can work on all modes possibly invented.

If u want to detect the F-117, the 3rd gen american radars can handle it using the monostatic mode itself. Stealth tech on the F-117 is obsolete in front of the new gen radars.

All new fighter upgrades are done to work in pseudo-monostatic config. Its called network centric warfare.


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## p2prada

ejaz007 said:


> *Saab 2000 AEW&C prepares for duty*
> By David Donald
> July 14, 2008
> 
> On April 30, Saab achieved a significant milestone with the first flight of the Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, developed under Project Horizon for the Pakistan air force. The two-hour flight from Linköping, Sweden, was used to check out general handling and aircraft systems, and encountered no problems. The maiden flight came a month after the aircraft was officially rolled out in front of Pakistani commanders.
> 
> Pakistan first contemplated the acquisition of an AEW system in the early 1980s, when Soviet and Afghan air force aircraft regularly intruded into Pakistani airspace. Other priorities, and the later U.S. arms embargo, meant that the requirement went unfulfilled. However, events in the wake of the 9/11 terrorist attacksplus ongoing tensions with Indiaplaced renewed emphasis on the AEW requirement.
> 
> Pakistan selected the Erieye in 2005 and later revised the initial requirement for six platforms to five as a cost-reduction measure. It is buying a complete surveillance package, including ground-based systems, logistics support and mission training systems.
> 
> The Saab 2000 AEW&C is the latest iteration of the Saab Microwave Systems Erieye concept. The five-operator system has increased command and control capabilities, including the Swedish Link-E system.
> 
> *The radar itself, which consists of 192 transmit/receive modules,* has been improved with an extended early warning mode and the ability to spot hovering helicopters. Coverage has been increased to two 150-degree sectors (from 120-degrees, still with a 1-degree beamwidth), with range out to the horizon (typically 199 to 217 miles). The radar offers a fully fused air/sea capability, and can spot maritime targets as small as jet-skis.
> 
> Virtually all of the radar components have been replaced since the Erieye was first fielded in 1996, and all of the computer systems are COTS-based for cost-effective and rapid upgrade. Power output is around 20 percent greater than it was previously, although power requirements, and thus cooling, for the mission system have decreased by 30 percent. The effects of improvement can also be seen in a 53-percent reduction in system weight and 78-percent reduction in floor space. At the same time, computing power has increased a hundredfold.
> 
> Backing up the radar is a sophisticated Saab Avitronics HES-21 ESM/protection suite that uses interferometer antennas and digital receivers for highly accurate tracking and ranging of emitters. HES-21 data is fused with that from the radar to provide detailed tracking, and it can generate its own tracks at ranges greater than that possible with the radar. The system also includes a comprehensive self-protection function, automatically controlling the launch of chaff and flares.
> 
> Commuter on Patrol
> The choice of basing Erieye on a regional airliner has obvious benefits in terms of high reliability, cost-efficiency and low maintenance requirements, but also offers significant mission benefits. The types hot-and-high performance is critical in the Pakistani operational environment. The aircraft has a balanced field length of 4,593 feet, allowing it to use many small airports, and it can reach 25,000 feet in 16 minutes.
> 
> Mission endurance is nine to 10 hours thanks to extra tanks in the cabin, and it can operate at up to 30,000 feet. At cruise power, the aircraft flies at about 340 knots, impressive for a turboprop. Using a 60-degree bank, the aircraft can complete a 180-degree turn at the end of a racetrack pattern in less than 30 seconds, with little interruption in track coverage.
> 
> Crew comfort is a consideration for long-endurance patrols, and through its active noise cancellation system, the Saab 2000 offers very low cabin noise levels. A 7,500-foot cabin pressure can be maintained at operational altitude. The Pakistani aircraft have a galley and rest area, with a mission display in the latter so that resting crew can stay informed of emerging situations. The flight deck is a very modern airliner-style working environment, with a six-tube Collins ProLine 4 electronic flight information system.
> 
> Erieye Conversions
> Saab Aerotech performs conversions in its facilities at Linköping. For the first aircraft, the work took less than a year to complete. The conversion comprises several airframe structural modifications, including strengthening the upper rear fuselage to mount the Erieye radar.
> 
> The sensor is mounted higher than on the Saab 340 so it can see over the longer wings of the Saab 2000. The vertical fin is enlarged and strengthened to offset the aerodynamic effects of the radar and its support struts, while the wingtips are rebuilt and reinforced to carry antennas and chaff dispensers. The belly fairing is reworked and enlarged to mount elements of the self-protection system.
> 
> Although the aircraft are pre-owned, structural life is not a factor. The airliner was designed with an initial structural life of 75,000 hours, and on average, the fleet has used less than 20 percent. Based on typical use rates, the remaining life of the AEW&C is more than 35 years, with options for further re-lifing. Modification work on the second aircraft was already under way at the time of the rollout.
> 
> Saab 2000 AEW&C prepares for duty: AINonline



192 t/r modules are far too less. I believe there should be a zero added somewhere.

the APG-77 itself has 1500 t/r modules which is meant for a fighter. Can someone find out the exact number of modules on the erieye.


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## F-16.Net

A patch from my collection

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## Munir

Well, some say Wedgetail was superb... I preditced it would be a big problem.

Unworkable Wedgetail radar may kill off $3.5b aircraft deal

AUSTRALIA'S most troubled defence project, the $3.5 billion purchase of six early warning aircraft, is more than four years late and could collapse.

Things are so bad that US radar experts have been called in to assess whether the vital Project Wedgetail will get off the ground.

Senior military officers have admitted the prime contractor, US giant Boeing, and its sub-contractors have no idea how to fix the main problem - an unworkable radar system.

Without the radar, the planes, which are vital for detecting incoming hostile aircraft and directing a battle, would be virtually useless.

Program manager Air Vice-Marshal Chris Deeble told a Senate inquiry the first modified Boeing 737 aircraft would not be delivered until at least 2011, more than four years behind schedule. 

Last year, Boeing promised to deliver the first plane next year, but later shifted it back to 2010.

Air Vice-Marshal Deeble's frank admission is the first indication of even greater problems.

"I believe that we could, if we worked through some of these significant issues, look at initial operational capability at around the end of 2011 and a full operational capability around 2012," he told the Senate.

Air Vice-Marshal Deeble qualified his timetable by saying it depended on solving the technical issues with the MESA radar built by US firm Northrop Grumman.

The radar is the centrepiece of the Wedgetail airborne early warning and control system.

It will be housed inside a large dorsal fin on the aircraft's roof and is supposed to allow operators to conduct simultaneous air and sea searches, control fighter planes and conduct area searches.

In a desperate bid for answers, the Defence Materiel Organisation has contracted the world-leading independent radar house MIT Lincoln Lab to investigate. 

"That will be important for us to understand the baseline performance and any path forward for remediation of any shortfall of the radar," Air Vice-Marshal Deeble told the Senate.

He was confident the project team would eventually provide the RAAF with six workable aircraft, but had no idea how long that would take.

The RAAF is the first air force to use the MESA radar and therefore the guinea pig for a new system. 

Boeing has declared forward losses of $1.5 billion on the global project.


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## Super Falcon

PC said:


> take it easy buddy... JF-17, MBT-2000/Al-Khalid, Y-8/ZDK-03 AEW&CS, etc are all joint ventures.. its just the begging of PAK-China cooperations..
> 
> 
> 
> unfortunately we have corrupt politicians who are western puppets which is also hindering pak-china full scale cooperations.. once this War on Terror is over then i think cooperations will hit full scale..




thats why we are suffering till now because of these american western puppets.


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## zavis2003

well tell me any chances that IAF manage to hit the Saab AEWS during the war
it ll be greatlose


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## Super Falcon

i think chaff flare is also installed in enrieye to avoid indian heat seeking missile.

any airforce if it is in war their first priority would be finishing enemy awacs so they can brake enemy backbone and its radar capability to 50&#37;


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## TOPGUN

Do we have any new pic's of the birds?


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## m15t3r7

fatman17 said:


> U r correct but the DSCA - EDA bulletin board shows 5 P3-H being allocated to pakistan. what this signifies, my guess is as good as yours.



p-3 are for navy aviation


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## ejaz007

*Pak to get Chinese AWACS for $278m*
19 Dec 2008, 0045 hrs IST, REUTERS 


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is to buy an airborne warning and control system (AWACS) from China to boost its air defences, a Pakistani newspaper reported on Thursday. 

The News said a $278 million agreement had been struck for Pakistan to get the Chinese system within four years, on a deferred payment basis. Pakistani defence procurement officials were not immediately available for comment. 

The report comes as relations between nuclear-armed Pakistan and India have been severely strained by last months militant attacks in Mumbai. 

Pakistan would be the first country to buy the Chinese AWACS system which China only started producing in 2004, the News said. 

Pakistan signed a memorandum of understanding with China in November 2006 for long-term collaboration in defence production including development of an airborne early warning surveillance system. China and Pakistan have been allies for years and China is Pakistans biggest supplier of defence equipment. 

Pak to get Chinese AWACS for $278m-Pakistan-World-The Times of India


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## araz

ejaz007 said:


> *Pak to get Chinese AWACS for $278m*
> 19 Dec 2008, 0045 hrs IST, REUTERS
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is to buy an airborne warning and control system (AWACS) from China to boost its air defences, a Pakistani newspaper reported on Thursday.
> 
> The News said a $278 million agreement had been struck for Pakistan to get the Chinese system within four years, on a deferred payment basis. Pakistani defence procurement officials were not immediately available for comment.
> 
> The report comes as relations between nuclear-armed Pakistan and India have been severely strained by last months militant attacks in Mumbai.
> 
> Pakistan would be the first country to buy the Chinese AWACS system which China only started producing in 2004, the News said.
> 
> Pakistan signed a memorandum of understanding with China in November 2006 for long-term collaboration in defence production including development of an airborne early warning surveillance system. China and Pakistan have been allies for years and China is Pakistans biggest supplier of defence equipment.
> 
> Pak to get Chinese AWACS for $278m-Pakistan-World-The Times of India



Is it the price of 4 units as described by ACM. If so, it is real friendship price and one indeed which PAF could not have ignored. However, the news does not clarify numbers.
Araz


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## ejaz007

The news is confirmed. As far as the price is concerned I think its for one system. The payment mode is deferred so perhaps Pakistan will pay for the rest of the systems later.


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## was

any info on p3 hawkeye??


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## popat

it is a great news, thanks for sharing, we needed it already


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## superbikez

Pakistan purchase this one ???


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## JK!

Nope thats the wrong the Russian Beriev A-50


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## nitetrogen70

dam it looks really nice
btw is it better then the one we are buying from the west?


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## shehbazi2001

*Escorting the AEW and Refuellers*


Consider an AEW on patrol, at say, 400 miles from the fighter's base. If two fighters are to be deployed as escorts they will need to be replaced at regular intervals. Assuming that air refueling is not used, this interval becomes increasingly small. The fighter jets would fly at about Mach 0.8 en route to the patrol point. Thus the journey outbound will take about 50 minutes. Add upto 10 minutes for the taxi, take-off and climb and 1 hour should be allowed for trip toward patrol area. Same amount of time would be required for return trip. 

Now most fighter jets have endurance of upto 3 hours with external fuel tanks and this gives 1 hour of combat air patrol or escort patrol. Put another way, a replacement pair will have to be launched every hour if continuous cover is to be maintained and 6 aircrafts are actively involved at any one time (2 on patrol, 2 returning and 2 outbound). Add 2 extra on ground alert as back-up, a 20&#37; allowance for serviceability and a total of 10 emerges. All this to provide 2 fighters to protect one AEW.

Reference: Air Defence by Group Captain M B Elsam, RAF.

Now with PAF going for 5 AEWs, it comes out to be 50 fighters for escort only, if all 5 AEW are to be used in wartime or tense time. The key is air to air refuelling. I appreciate the decision of PAF to acquire the Air to Air Refuellers alongwith AEW. Only refuellers make the escorting an affordable option. 

Now if F-16s cant be refuelled by IL-78s, then I fear F-16s would not be able to continuously provide escort to AEWs until a suitable Refueller is acquired. Till then Mirages or may be in future F-7PGs would be employed if F-7PGs are also made capable of AA Refuelling.

Infact with a large number of AEW/Refuellers of PAF and MPA of PN, we not only need very capable escort fighters but also need to make them capable of refuelling so that escort becomes feasible and affordable.

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## hj786

F-16s would be the best Erieye escorts, especially armed with AMRAAMs and linked to the Erieye radar with Link-16. They can't be refuelled in the air by PAF, but the Block 52s with conformal fuel tanks will have better loitering time. Fitting them with aerial refuelling probes must be possible, F-18 has them. If not, FC-20/JF-17 will have to do.

FC-20/JF-17 would make ideal escorts for the ZDK-03. Refuelled in the air and data-linked to the Chinese radar, it will be as if the ZDK-03 itself is armed with SD-10!


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## Zob

intresting thought shebazi...but i have a question firstly do we need fighter escort in peace time...and secondly..if i am correct our AEW's will be patrolling areas near lahore and sialkot...from this location non of our base is very far!! so the idea of flying 400 km's away from base doesnot materlize. and finally currently which aircraft can be refulled with the refuller we are getting because it seems none of our aircraft is capable yet.


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## Skywalker

Zob said:


> intresting thought shebazi...but i have a question firstly do we need fighter escort in peace time...and secondly..if i am correct our AEW's will be patrolling areas near lahore and sialkot...from this location non of our base is very far!! so the idea of flying 400 km's away from base doesnot materlize. and finally currently which aircraft can be refulled with the refuller we are getting because it seems none of our aircraft is capable yet.



Currently its miarage III, and around 40 have been upgraded with external refuelling system.


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## MastanKhan

hj786 said:


> F-16s would be the best Erieye escorts, especially armed with AMRAAMs and linked to the Erieye radar with Link-16. They can't be refuelled in the air by PAF, but the Block 52s with conformal fuel tanks will have better loitering time. Fitting them with aerial refuelling probes must be possible, F-18 has them. If not, FC-20/JF-17 will have to do.
> 
> FC-20/JF-17 would make ideal escorts for the ZDK-03. Refuelled in the air and data-linked to the Chinese radar, it will be as if the ZDK-03 itself is armed with SD-10!




Hi,

With 8---10 awacs by the year 2015 plus the refuellers---PAF will be operating at a different pleateu---then you have the P 3 C's for the navy as well----seems like the skies over the pakistani air space are going to be really really crowded---awacs---refuellers---fighter escorts---daily training missions----they will have their hands full and then some----.

I guess, we all know, that the PAF won't be the same entity after the next 5 years----we can talk a lot about how potent it is going to be, but till we see it as it would be, in person and in material at that time----the true strength and ability is only what our imagination can make out of it. God bless pakistan. God bless PAF.

Next thing, the number of crew members for the awacs----How many different teams would be ready for each awac----how many different teams for each refueller---24/7 fighter escort replacement teams----ground crews operating 24/7-----truly----the PAF is going to be a different airforce than what we have all known it to be.

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## Zob

i guess 3 airborne controllers per jet...and 3 AEW in the air at a time controlling three sector commands NORTH,CENTRAL AND SOUTH! now if we put 3 fighters as escorts per plane that becomes 9 planes + 3 AEW's a total of 12 planes over pak airspace at all times!! but i hope the integration of refueller and AEW's goes ahead and happens smoothly and quikcly!! because i guess currently like skywalker said only the mirages are capable of refuelling air to air and none of the AEW's have a data link to any fighter means it will take a long time for things to fall into place!


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## raheelocelot

REFUELERS: Not required until required. I mean, they dont have to be in air if we are not planning a deep strike. Mostly, we will keep to targets within reach without aerial refueling. Its just a potency that we can go for deep targets. Secondly, by aquiring more lethal and precise weapons, we reduce the weapon to target ratio thus reducing takeoff weights thus reducing the need of aerial refueling. Thirdly, JF-17 are soon going to be inducted. They have a very good fuel consumption which will enable them to loiter in air as escorts for longer durations thus reducing change cycles. So, refuelers may not be the escort requiring things. AEW, yes, they would require escorts cuz their requirement will be more during critical times.

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## Zob

Indian Air Force PHALCON AWACS to be Delivered by Jan-Feb 2009 | India Defence

well i came across this very worrying piece of information. can somebody please tell me how long before PAF get's its own AEW. if this is taken seriously means India maybe and i use the word maybe because i myself doubt it...is waiting to recieve these before it plans a "surgical strike"


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## Neo

First Phalcon arrived in Delhi three days ago and at this moment its doesn't pose a threat because it will take a lot of time and effort to integrate it into the IAF infrastructure.
The Erieye will be delivered in third quarter, later this year.

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## Zob

well still the Indians are ahead of us in terms of recieving the delivery system!! by the time their system is up and running we wil be conducting tests on ours!! it makes me uncomfrtable that for a few months the indians will be observing our airspace and everything in it!! and to show "military might" will jam our radars...i hope i am not the only one feeling uncomfortable!!


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## IceCold

Neo said:


> First Phalcon arrived in Delhi three days ago and at this moment its doesn't pose a threat because it will take a lot of time and effort to integrate it into the IAF infrastructure.
> The Erieye will be delivered in third quarter, later this year.



Neo how much time will it take PAF to integrate Erieye into their infrastructure. The reason i ask this is because IAF has got the phalcon and they may have started to work for its integration while we are still waiting for the delivery.


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## shehbazi2001

Zob said:


> intresting thought shebazi...but i have a question firstly do we need fighter escort in peace time...and secondly..if i am correct our AEW's will be patrolling areas near lahore and sialkot...from this location non of our base is very far!! so the idea of flying 400 km's away from base doesnot materlize. and finally currently which aircraft can be refulled with the refuller we are getting because it seems none of our aircraft is capable yet.



Obviously in the Pak-India scenario, the tension periods are usually predictable and in the peace time the escort cover may be relaxed and AEW/EW/MPA aircrafts can depend on either CAP aircrafts or ADA. Even then all missions close to International border or Control Line should be escorted.

we have the coast-line and whole Ran of Katch area to watch which are far from PAF bases. Indians were able to penetrate into Pakistani territory and take away debris of Atlantique and Pakistan should not permit actions like that. There are several incidents reported in the press where Indian helicopters crossed into Pakistani airspace through Ran of Katch.

All this needs to be seen by AEW. In the Kashmir valley, we cant put ground radars everywhere because they would not be effective in mountains and even on the border with Afghanistan, we have mountainous terrain and thus the escorting requirements are not trivial.

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## shehbazi2001

raheelocelot said:


> REFUELERS: Not required until required. I mean, they dont have to be in air if we are not planning a deep strike. Mostly, we will keep to targets within reach without aerial refueling. Its just a potency that we can go for deep targets. Secondly, by aquiring more lethal and precise weapons, we reduce the weapon to target ratio thus reducing takeoff weights thus reducing the need of aerial refueling. Thirdly, JF-17 are soon going to be inducted. They have a very good fuel consumption which will enable them to loiter in air as escorts for longer durations thus reducing change cycles. So, refuelers may not be the escort requiring things. AEW, yes, they would require escorts cuz their requirement will be more during critical times.



AEW is also required for air defence purposes (interception). Ground radars have a limitation of horizon and can't detect low-level penetrations. It would be AEW that shall warn of any low-level penetration. It can be used to plug the gaps in radar coverage and also complement the ground-based radars.


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## TOPGUN

I just dont understand why the US wont sell us kc-135 tankers i think we should have made a deal with the US for some when we did the new f-16's deal !! & wats so funny is that when u look up kc-135 on wikipedia it states 4 US surplus stocks to be acquired i know one can change things on there add or delete!! anyone can do it.


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## shehbazi2001

Neo said:


> First Phalcon arrived in Delhi three days ago and at this moment its doesn't pose a threat because it will take a lot of time and effort to integrate it into the IAF infrastructure.
> The Erieye will be delivered in third quarter, later this year.



Neo once the Phalcon has arrived, it can pose immediate threat. Integration can take time for the establishment of datalink with fighters but it can guide the fighters towards the target through radio.

Even in 1971 war, a Soviet Tu-126 Moss AWACS came to India and was used against PAF in the East Pakistan. I am sure datalinks, although in use by superpowers, were not in use by Indian Air Force. That was yet another factor against the sole No.14 Squadron.

Tu-126 is mentioned in the book of Maj Gen Fazal Muqeem Khan on 1971 war "Pakistan's Crisis in Leadership" and through web too, we can find many links like this one (see combat record),

Aerospaceweb.org | Aircraft Museum - Tu-126 'Moss'

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

With the refuellers at hand---the training of PAF will go to a different pleateau. The PAF will be doing what the usaf pilots are doing---longer flight times---train train and train for long range strike missions---also to increase the flying endurance of a figter and bomber pilot---even though pakistan cannot afford to get an aircraft carrier---the air force will be wanting to strengthen its legs over the blue ocean---flying for an hour is not the same as flying for two three and four hours at the go on a consistant basis.

So when a PAF fighter pilot / bomber pilot as well is strapped down in his office chair----he / she would know that it is not an hour trip---it is a full shift at the office.

The pilot can take offwith maximum weapons load and minimum fuel load----the moment he gets airborne---he can quench his thirst.

ZOB----PAF will never be a defensive strike force---it never was-----the only thing that has kept is back were the sanctions---so to tell others not to be aggressive we say the we are defensive in nature---.

Just look the posture of the PAF fighter jock---look at his training---look at his demeanor----listen to the statements coming out of the current and ex fighter jocks on this board or the air force personale----do you really believe that these people are only doing homeland security detail---heck no----they are just palying a waiting game of catch up----in a five years time the itch is really really going to hurt----trust me----the indians will be talking to us in a differnt language at that time---it will be pakistan
talking about surgical strikes against the indian assets----you kn

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Iaf maynot have all that equipment which is being written down about. Right now----the next 60 to 90 days are very crucial in india's economy---the fallout of india's enron scandal will take effect---secondly----india is possibly going to lose about 10 million jobs by the end of this year and possibly 30 millions plus plus in the next two to three years----india's economy maynot be strong enough to make all those purchases that they want to.

Pakistan has all their major purchase in the pipeline---some are already built and the others are on their way----india has yet to decide on quite a few of them---. 

For pakistan----by the middle of next year---the true posture of the PAF will be visible to the naked eye.


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## RedBaron

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Iaf maynot have all that equipment which is being written down about. *Right now----the next 60 to 90 days are very crucial in india's economy---the fallout of india's enron scandal will take effect---secondly----india is possibly going to lose about 10 million jobs by the end of this year and possibly 30 millions plus plus in the next two to three years----india's economy maynot be strong enough to make all those purchases that they want to.*
> Pakistan has all their major purchase in the pipeline---some are already built and the others are on their way----india has yet to decide on quite a few of them---.
> 
> For pakistan----by the middle of next year---the true posture of the PAF will be visible to the naked eye.



MastanKhan, you are a ThinkTank sir. So I expected a more balanced opinion above. I would like to mention a few points in response to your statements:
1> India has a number of profitable well-managed companies. The Birlas, Tatas, Reliance, Bajaj, Godrej all have been in business for decades, and in a couple of cases a century or more. There are profitable giant public sector companies like ONGC, BHEL, RCF. They are well-capitalized and have always been. A single tainted software company fudging its books by a billion dollars is just a hiccup for a country with a trillion dollar GDP. And what is the basis of your estimates of 10-30 million job losses? Some factual resources would help.

2> National security issues are #1 priority for any country. Period. If India feels current threat environment requires urgent decisions, she will take those decisions without delays.

3> You question whether India's economy is "strong enough" for defence purchases. Defence purchases typically involve foreign exchange outflows. *India's foreign exchange reserves as of Jan 2,2009 are USD 255 BILLION. *
Gold pushes up India's forex reserves
So as you can see, India can certainly afford to spend a few billionto defend herself, and then some more if needed.

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## Neo

​


IceCold said:


> Neo how much time will it take PAF to integrate Erieye into their infrastructure. The reason i ask this is because IAF has got the phalcon and they may have started to work for its integration while we are still waiting for the delivery.



This question can be best answered by Blain, Sir Murad or X_men but according to my knowledge it will take 2-3 months to integrate them.


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## ejaz007

RedBaron said:


> MastanKhan, you are a ThinkTank sir. So I expected a more balanced opinion above. I would like to mention a few points in response to your statements:
> 1> India has a number of profitable well-managed companies. The Birlas, Tatas, Reliance, Bajaj, Godrej all have been in business for decades, and in a couple of cases a century or more. There are profitable giant public sector companies like ONGC, BHEL, RCF. They are well-capitalized and have always been. A single tainted software company fudging its books by a billion dollars is just a hiccup for a country with a trillion dollar GDP. And what is the basis of your estimates of 10-30 million job losses? Some factual resources would help.
> 
> 2> National security issues are #1 priority for any country. Period. If India feels current threat environment requires urgent decisions, she will take those decisions without delays.
> 
> 3> You question whether India's economy is "strong enough" for defence purchases. Defence purchases typically involve foreign exchange outflows. *India's foreign exchange reserves as of Jan 2,2009 are USD 255 BILLION. *
> Gold pushes up India's forex reserves
> So as you can see, India can certainly afford to spend a few billionto defend herself, and then some more if needed.



The question mark regarding Indian defense purchases is the efficiency of its defense establishment and bureaucracy. Just one example to quote: India started process to acquire 126 fighters in perhaps 2001 and is still evaluating the tenders. Pakistan started evaluating the fighter to induct in service other than F-16 in around the same time and have already finalized FC-20 and the plane is expected to enter service by 2010.

As far as reserves are concerned the price of gold has gone down in recent months rather than going up so it is not a very good indicator of calculating a countries foreign reserves. What if gold plunges like the oil than what?

As far as job losses are concerned this should answer that:

Big-ticket job losses imminent in India?- Opinion-The Economic Times

DNA: India: Job losses: You ain't seen nothing yet

Indian exporters expect 10m job cuts

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## MastanKhan

Redbaron,

All the companies that failed in the u s of a were very well respected and solid companies in the country in the begining of last year---till they met their sad demise.

Steel industry is in shambles all over the world---no sooner then later, india is going to feel the crunch. Nissan has reduced its production goal of manufacturing vehicles from 400k to 200 k in their upcoming assembly plant. That goal maybe further reduced. The steel industry is going to feel the pinch pretty soon if it already had not. The Mittals have lost a pretty penny on that. 

It is just a matter of time----india lives in this same planet as does china and america and europe and pakistan----if it dependends more on the u s of a and europe for its welbeing--guess what---it will feel the pain rather sooner than later. It is coming---no doubt about it---.

Oh by the way---TATAS are going to lose their shirt on Jaguar and land rover----what a poor timing to buy those piece of sh-it english cars and suv's company. It maybe chump change----but it is the psychological effect on the rest of the industry that creates the snowball effect.

The reserves are in proportion to the size of the country's economy / population---doesn't mean that india can spend at free will. Knowing india's past procurement habbits----defence purchases have never been a priority---when india was buying from russia---at least they could focus on either the MIG or the SU---and even then---it took awhile to make the decision----now there are 5 plus variants in the MRCA purchase---.

Oh----india would be spending a tidy bit of money in upgrading their security forces equipment for their cities----so it is not at all a rosy picture for india---.

Now this is my view and observation by keeping in mind the world economic picture which is extremely gloomy. Do any pakistani members feel or see anything wrong with this analysis.

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## RedBaron

ejaz007 said:


> The question mark regarding Indian defense purchases is the efficiency of its defense establishment and bureaucracy. Just one example to quote: India started process to acquire 126 fighters in perhaps 2001 and is still evaluating the tenders. Pakistan started evaluating the fighter to induct in service other than F-16 in around the same time and have already finalized FC-20 and the plane is expected to enter service by 2010.
> 
> As far as reserves are concerned the price of gold has gone down in recent months rather than going up so it is not a very good indicator of calculating a countries foreign reserves. What if gold plunges like the oil than what?
> 
> As far as job losses are concerned this should answer that:
> 
> Big-ticket job losses imminent in India?- Opinion-The Economic Times
> 
> DNA: India: Job losses: You ain't seen nothing yet
> 
> Indian exporters expect 10m job cuts



Thanks Ejaz. Your point about past delays is well taken. But the enhanced threat perception recently, and especially after Mumbai attacks is bound to speed up matters related to defence procurement. The Phalcon arriving earlier than scheduled could be a coincidence, could be not - I don't know. But with the recent unstability in the region finally spilling over to Indian shores, GoI will be hard-pressed to move faster on a number of defence matters including the MRCA bids. This is my opinion, others may feel differently.

Regarding FC-20, I believe PAF was still at the evaluation stage (at least till very recently) as indicated by the below post in the J-10/FC-20 thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-37.html#post218666

My response to MastanKhan was primarily regarding Indian "Enron" and the "affordability" issues, and I stand by my opinion on these.

Regarding exact job losses, no doubt there is a global slump, but governments all over the world are announcing stimulus packages, and GoI is in the process of doing the same. Job-loss projections are less trustworthy than actual jobs lost measured after each quarter is over. So I would take the doomsday predictions with a pinch of salt.

Regarding gold prices, as the previous link I posted indicates, gold reserves are a mere USD 8 Billion out of USD 255 Billion total reserves, so a plunge in gold prices would not impact India's forex reserves significantly. You have to look at the _*foreign currency asset portion *_of the forex reserves, which stand at USD 245 Billion. 

I don't doubt that we are in the midst of a global recession. The point I'm trying to make here is that India has enough reserves to service current debt payments as well as provide any collateral necessary for additional external financing even in this recessionary environment. Defence is and should be a country's top priority. I would not like delve further into an economics debate in this thread, but would gladly start a new thread on this topic elsewhere if anyone so wishes. Thanks.


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## ejaz007

J10 have been cleared for purchase by the government. These shall enter PAF service by the designation of FC-20.

As far as foreign currency resreves are concerned these to some extent depend on the exchange rate of Indian Rupee to US dollar. If either of these take a beeting that the figures are bound to change.

One of the case is the reduction of Pakistani foreign currency reserves. In 2008 one of the contributing factor in the fall of our foreign currency reserve was the devaluation of Rupee. When the Rupee was at Rs. 65 to a dollar we had different foreign currency reserve and when it fell to Rs. 85 to a dollar the figure was different.


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## Zob

dear senior members and think tanks...can we please come back to the main subject because i know if i start on the issue of "INDIA" this will turn out to be like other indian forums on which i have been banned...so please coming back to the topic i just want to know if for example just to check out their equipment India sends its newly acquired Phalcon to the border near Lahore and tries to jam our radars...knowing the current stand off and the fact that we are not even close to get our EREIYE...can our ground controlled radar the TPS-77...avoid the jamming or not. and besides sir (Mastan Khan) can you please tell me when do we expect to get the chninese AEWs? and i can't resist saying this besides i am not a senior member or a think tank so i am somewhat off the hook...I PRAY that the Indian economy collapses so that the INDIANS come back down to earth their heads are getting too big for their bodies!!


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## ejaz007

Phalcon won't be sent close to Lahore especially in the present scenario. Also they have just received the plane and need to integrate it into their system and familiarize themselves before taking such a risky mission.

The closest it would be to Lahore would be around 200 km.


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## Zob

Phalcon inducted 'quietly' in IAF New Delhi Review

guys have a look at this article....i am not so sure what they are talking about how can they induct their AWACS so soon!!


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## Zob

hi can anyone give me a credible link to the tracking range of Phalcon and how many targets it can track. cuz i want to compare our EREIYE to it...thanx


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## Keysersoze

Zob said:


> hi can anyone give me a credible link to the tracking range of Phalcon and how many targets it can track. cuz i want to compare our EREIYE to it...thanx



No "credible" link will exist as the figures tend to be restricted information.
Also most of the ranges quoted will be inaccurate anyway.

The listed range for Erieye is 350 Km in dense electronic clutter but like the ranges posted for Phalcon they are only indicative for obvious reasons.


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## Zob

one quick question KEYSERSOZE(by the way off the record like the name keysersoze...from usual suspects right??)!! ok ya so my qucik question is does EREIYE having jamming capabilites or is it just a platform that is airborne radar that can sustain sustain electronical jamming...!! thanks...


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## Keysersoze

Zob said:


> one quick question KEYSERSOZE(by the way off the record like the name keysersoze...from usual suspects right??)!! ok ya so my qucik question is does EREIYE having jamming capabilites or is it just a platform that is airborne radar that can sustain sustain electronical jamming...!! thanks...



Both......

It is a AESA radar which has the capabilities to jam.

5 September 2005
Radar Becomes A Weapon
By David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie
Aviation Week & Space Technology

Directed energy takes an unexpected turn and surfaces as a handy antimissile device that can be built into aircraft, ship and ground-based radars

Radar is emerging as one of the key weapons--nearly all of them still shrouded by secrecy--in the Pentagon's growing arsenal of nonexplosive devices.

Knowledge that radar can produce violent effects on electronic systems is not new. More than 20 years ago, bomber aircraft radars were capable of generating enough concentrated noise jamming to burn out the valve amps (tube amplifiers) in fighters attempting an interception. The emergence over the last few years of the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, and its ability to provide high average power for appreciable times, makes such electronically destructive devices all the more attractive and effective.

The weapons-effect utility of the AESA will provide a useful adjunct to other "nonkinetic"--not relying on explosives or impact--weapons research being done in the U.S. and in Europe. The intent is to develop an arsenal of weaponry that limits, or perhaps eliminates, collateral damage and unintended casualties, a particular concern with civilians in countries that coalition forces are trying to aid.

Arrays designed for carriage by aircraft appear to be focused on cruise missiles and self-defense against anti-radiation, home-on-jam and air-to-air missiles. The radars seem particularly effective against the latter categories because energy available to focus on the approaching missile increases as an inverse square as distance decreases.

With large ground- or sea-based AESA-type arrays, the targets are to include ballistic missile warheads, supersonic sea-skimming missiles or shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles that threaten airport operations.

Some of the airborne AESA radars, designed for X-band frequencies, use thousands of small transmitters/receivers, each a couple of inches square, that allow the array to conduct many tasks simultaneously. Those include detection of small, even stealthy targets, tracking and communications. Along with the AESA's high average power, there are also bandwidth benefits and the ability to utilize flexible waveforms.

They can also be used for "jamming," a term now encompassing weapons effects on enemy electronics from the right combination of power, waveform, frequency and pulse length. Possible AESA techniques for attacking another radar could include burning through the target radar's antenna side-lobes, filter side-lobes, or other known features of the target system. Radar specialists suggest it is reasonable to suppose this capability is already available to some fielded systems.

The AESA transmitters can also be focused on other targets to deliver bursts of X-band radio frequency energy into the vulnerable electronics of missiles--the current focus--or enemy aircraft and helicopters or computer systems. Under such assault, computers become confused and missiles lose interest in their targets.

MOREOVER, THE AESA radar is related to high-power microwave (HPM) just beginning to emerge as missile defense systems. The primary difference is that AESA radars produce a sustained pulse for microseconds over a limited frequency range to create an effect while HPM produces a one-pico-sec. pulse of much greater power over gigahertz of frequencies, says a long-time Pentagon radar specialist. A laser beam, by comparison, would have to be held on the target for several seconds.

Some industry specialists say such descriptions oversimplify the technology because both AESA radars and HPM can produce a variety of pulse lengths and bandwidths. They contend the only difference between AESA radars and HPM systems are the waveforms and RF power levels. Both systems use the same electronics technologies and those electronics are optimized for the performance needed to achieve the desired radar or HPM effect. That goal is often to confuse or damage enemy electronics.

These capabilities aren't openly discussed. Moreover, those with knowledge of the technology offer many caveats.

"It's not wise to characterize all AESA radars as potential weapons," says an aerospace industry expert in advanced radars. "Most radars are for defensive purposes only." Also, "one does not need an AESA to turn a radar into a weapon. It can be done with other technologies. High power is required, but beyond that, it's mostly a software issue.

"Wide bandwidth is needed in order to find a vulnerable frequency for the target," he says. "Purpose-built HPM systems would be better in this than most AESAs."

THE NEWLY EMERGING "HPM [devices] come in different flavors," says a second industry specialist. "It can make it uncomfortable for a human being to be in the beam by relying on high average power to heat the skin. Another is used to confuse or burn out missile seekers. The level of peak and/or average power depends on the specific technique being used to counter the threat.

"In general, high peak power is not unique to HPM [devices]," he says. "Radars also use high peak power in long-range search modes, and AESA [arrays] are used for both. The discriminators are the waveform properties and techniques, which include power, duty cycle, pulse length, etc., to counter the various threats, not the technology that goes into the AESA itself. AESA [arrays] support HPM, radar, communications and electronic warfare applications. What makes them unique are the properties of the waveforms that are transmitted."

There are AESAs fielded that operate at HF frequencies (re-locatable over the horizon radar) to millimeter waves (communications and other radar applications). The transmitter/receiver (T/R) modules for these devices can range from several feet to less that 1/4-in. square. Moreover, many frequencies beyond Xband can be exploited to produce weapons effects.

AESA radars on fighter aircraft aren't particularly suited to create weapons effects on missiles because of limited antenna size, power and field of view, a senior U.S. Air Force official says. And, while weapons effects from radars are interesting, "There's no requirement yet for the capability," at least on smaller aircraft, he says. The military's primary concern for now is high-resolution radar with moving target and synthetic aperture capabilities.

While it's easier to plug the energy-hungry system into city electrical power grids as ground-based systems or the Navy's next generation of electric-propulsion ships such as DD(X), the capability is also quickly moving into airborne systems.

A weapons capability exists in a handful of F-15Cs modified with the APG-63(V)2 radars for cruise missile defense and the latest production F/A-18E/Fs. It will soon be part of the F/A-22 and B-2 as part of their radar upgrades, and AESA is also to equip the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. HPM is eventually to be part of the Joint Unmanned Combat Air System payload, and the huge 4 X 21-ft. MP-RTIP AESA radar array is to fly on the E-10. An AESA array is also to be carried by the British Astor.

As to weapons effects, the AESA radar offers the best way to generate high, sustained power where countermeasures demand average power, the radar specialist says. However, weapons effects or countermeasures will vary depending on the target's sensitivities. Very high peak power, short duration pulse may be the best method for attacking enemy electronics. In that case, the attack might better and more cheaply be delivered by an HPM weapon. An AESA is best used where it can use its radar function to locate the target and focus its energy. It can then rapidly move to other targets and select how long it wants to dwell on each.

The radar's weapons effect is measured in watts/sq. cm. AESA arrays are more efficient and reliable since their RF and low-noise amplifiers are near the radiators so that very little energy is lost. The beam is produced by ganging the effects of thousands of lower-wattage T/R modules.

There are lots of similarities between ground-based HPM systems and AESA radars including the T/R modules. In fact, ground-based HPM is becoming affordable because the proliferations of AESA radars has driven the price of modules down.

"HPM and AESA radar are not much different," said the radar specialist. However, "HPM is not trying to be a radar. It's much simpler to concentrate the beam into a peak power pulse [since it's not busy detecting, tracking and identifying targets]. The instantaneous power it creates can burn out missile front ends [including focal planes and imagers]."

BY COMPARISON, AESA "radar uses more elaborate wave forms that focus on detection," he says. "They put more sustained energy onto enemy missiles and burn out the low noise amplifiers and receivers in a seeker." Other specialists caution this generalization isn't necessarily always true.

While HPM produces higher peak power, AESA often generates greater average power. That produces different operational and targeting strategies. For example, Raytheon's airport protection system uses infrared sensors to find the target and determine where to focus its beam. It also produces effects at longer range, possibly as much as 100 mi., because it produces powerful pulses of energy. AESA radar has the built-in ability to find and track a target, so it can be held on the target for the necessary additional microseconds needed to create its weapons effect.

Some HPM pulses are designed to be very broadband, covering "many gigahertz" of frequencies, so they are more likely to find any opening or vulnerability in a target, the radar specialist says. AESA radar has a narrower frequency range, but it uses its radar capability to identify a target, search a library for its vulnerable frequencies and then tailor the signal for the specific target.

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## SSGPA1

Keysersoze said:


> Both......
> 
> It is a AESA radar which has the capabilities to jam.
> 
> 5 September 2005
> Radar Becomes A Weapon
> By David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie
> Aviation Week & Space Technology
> 
> ... but it uses its radar capability to identify a target, search a library for its vulnerable frequencies and then tailor the signal for the specific target.



There is nothing new.

This article is about the capabilities of the platform but where does it say that Pakistan will get the platform with jamming capabilities?


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## ejaz007

SSGPA1 said:


> There is nothing new.
> 
> This article is about the capabilities of the platform but where does it say that Pakistan will get the platform with jamming capabilities?



This is what Saabs site says about the capabilities. Keysersoze can elaborate better about jamming capabilities.

http://products.saabgroup.com/pdbwebnew/GetFile.aspx?PathType=ProductFiles&FileType=Files&Id=6775

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## hj786

Would it be possible to fit the Saab 2000s with aerial refuelling probes? Surely JF-17's extendable probe could be fitted in the nose cone of the Saabs?


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## notorious_eagle

In an interview with PAF's Chief, he said that JF17 FC20 and F16 would have data pods which would link it to SAAB2000 Erieye. So i guess we can put aside that notion that only F16's could link up with SAAB2000 and Chinese aircrafts could link up with Chinese AWACS.

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## hj786

notorious_eagle said:


> In an interview with PAF's Chief, he said that JF17 FC20 and F16 would have data pods which would link it to SAAB2000 Erieye. So i guess we can put aside that notion that only F16's could link up with SAAB2000 and Chinese aircrafts could link up with Chinese AWACS.



Thanks for the info mate. Can you post a link?
Also, why would F-16s need external data-link pods? I thought their MLU upgrades would give them Link-16?


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## notorious_eagle

hj786 said:


> Thanks for the info mate. Can you post a link?
> Also, why would F-16s need external data-link pods? I thought their MLU upgrades would give them Link-16?



Just check this thread out brother:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/19930-paf-shouldve-invested-more-j-10s-3.html

Its an old interview of the PAF chief but its very informative.

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## Keysersoze

SSGPA1 said:


> There is nothing new.
> 
> This article is about the capabilities of the platform but where does it say that Pakistan will get the platform with jamming capabilities?



Hold on let me get the classified documents that reveal the PAF's EXACT specs for their aircraft.........


Read between the lines and guess that it is a AESA system on the Erieye with all the inherent capabilities

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## Keysersoze

notorious_eagle said:


> In an interview with PAF's Chief, he said that JF17 FC20 and F16 would have data pods which would link it to SAAB2000 Erieye. So i guess we can put aside that notion that only F16's could link up with SAAB2000 and Chinese aircrafts could link up with Chinese AWACS.



Mate in order for the system to work would require access to the J-10 by western engineers (for link 16 to work). China would not allow any such access. And vice versa.


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## asaad-ul-islam

Pakistan will most likely interlink and integrate western and chinese systems through ground-based systems. However, I wouldn't be surprised if our engineers managed to do the "impossible" and integrate western weapons systems with the chinese systems. We've already managed to do that with our ground radars-i.e chinese, european, american-in our C4i system.

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## blain2

Keysersoze said:


> Mate in order for the system to work would require access to the J-10 by western engineers (for link 16 to work). China would not allow any such access. And vice versa.



Key,

I think its doable. The Link 16 is a secured DL. While it is secured, it does not mean that encryption at the same level cannot be done by other aircraft before transmitting to the Erieye. 

Call me overly optimistic, but I am sticking to the point that PAF will integrate all of her AEW assets onto a common data linked grid and will not run two separate and disparate DL networks for the Western and Chinese inventory aircraft.

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## hj786

I'm with blain2... I am no optimist, but PAF will find a way. If it can't be done by the aircraft only, use ground control assets - this will be a problem if operating over enemy territory, but in that case just send either Chinese or Western platforms for the strike mission.
PAF knows the Chinese have an AWACS almost ready for them. Why would they buy expensive Erieyes if they know it's impossible for both platforms to be integrated?


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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 

Date Posted: 15-Jan-2009 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

*Pakistan plans to continue Erieye AEW&C aircraft purchase*

Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent - Islamabad

*Pakistan remains committed to buying Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early-warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft from Sweden despite agreeing in December to procure four air warning and control system aircraft from China, a senior government official has told Jane's .* 

The official said on 15 January that the USD278 million contract signed with Beijing would not affect the estimated USD1.2 billion Erieye deal, which was first signed in 2005 before being renegotiated in mid-2007. 

In recent months, concern has mounted over Pakistan's ability to purchase new military hardware in the face of mounting economic difficulties. Some analysts have also questioned the logic behind purchasing airborne early-warning systems from both China and Sweden, especially given the credit crunch. 

*However, the government official told Jane's that the Swedish system "was far more advanced than the Chinese aircraft" and would therefore still be purchased.* 

"[Meanwhile], Pakistan was dedicated to broadening its defence relationship in every field with China," he said.

Pakistan signed an agreement with China in 2006 for long-term co-operation in defence production. Since then, Pakistan has become the first country to sign up for the Chinese airborne early-warning aircraft. 

*According to one Western defence official, Pakistan is pursuing Chinese defence systems because it believes in China's ability to bridge the gap between its own hardware and that of Western suppliers. "Ultimately, Pakistan sees its investment in China paying off in a very big way," he said. *

*The Western official also pointed out that China is likely to have offered Islamabad long-term credit with easy repayment terms. *

In a related development, senior Pakistan Air Force officials briefed President Asif Ali Zardari on 14 January over the capability of the JF-17 fighter, jointly produced by Pakistan and China. 

The briefing took place as tensions remain high between Pakistan and India, following the Mumbai terrorist attack in November 2008. 

A press release issued by Pakistan's government after the meeting said: "The meeting was informed that the aircraft will have an edge over its contemporary aircraft - particularly [the] Indian light combat aircraft - in terms of cost, early availability and supportability." 

&#169; 2009 Jane's Information Group

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## Quwa

Given the costs of raising necessary infrastructure, I think there is still room for PAF to order more Erieye AEW&C if has the requirement & funds. However the ZDK03 gives Pakistan the opportunity to not only work on improving on the technology, but ultimately produce it locally.

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## Arsalan

can anyone please guide us about the current status of this machine,

have they been inducted or are we still waiting.

i am talking about both systems that is Erieye and the awacs

is there any such thing in current service and what exactly are we going to get,

i will really appreciate your guaidance

thankyou


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## PAFAce

From what I have read/heard, we will be inducting 5 SAAB 2000s and 5 KJ-2000s evntually. AWACS can be extremely efficient force multipliers, but having two separate sets of AWACS systems will prevent us from using them to their fullest potential.

Therefore to answer some of the questions about their integration. I do not think its a question of _if_ but _how _. Pakistan will certainly try to indigenously develop a way of ingtegrating the two systems, giving Pakistan supreme coverage and increased capability in warfare.

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## Arsalan

PAFAce said:


> From what I have read/heard, we will be inducting 5 SAAB 2000s and 5 KJ-2000s evntually. AWACS can be extremely efficient force multipliers, but having two separate sets of AWACS systems will prevent us from using them to their fullest potential.
> 
> Therefore to answer some of the questions about their integration. I do not think its a question of _if_ but _how _. Pakistan will certainly try to indigenously develop a way of ingtegrating the two systems, giving Pakistan supreme coverage and increased capability in warfare.




so you mean that currently we are not having them, any of them???


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## PAFAce

We have 1 SAAB 2000 so far, however, it has not been inducted yet.

My knowledge is limited, there are better people who can answer your question on the forum.


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## Myth_buster_1

PAFAce said:


> From what I have read/heard, we will be inducting 5 SAAB 2000s and 5 KJ-2000s evntually. AWACS can be extremely efficient force multipliers, but having two separate sets of AWACS systems will prevent us from using them to their fullest potential.
> 
> Therefore to answer some of the questions about their integration. I do not think its a question of _if_ but _how _. Pakistan will certainly try to indigenously develop a way of ingtegrating the two systems, giving Pakistan supreme coverage and increased capability in warfare.



What i think, the reasion why PAF shortened Erieye orders are due to several reasons.
- Financel problems
- India will be ordering similar system from sweden
- PAF wont rely on one system 
- Pak will gain AEW knowleage through JV with china


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## hj786

PAFAce said:


> From what I have read/heard, we will be inducting 5 SAAB 2000s and 5 KJ-2000s evntually. AWACS can be extremely efficient force multipliers, but having two separate sets of AWACS systems will prevent us from using them to their fullest potential.
> 
> Therefore to answer some of the questions about their integration. I do not think its a question of _if_ but _how _. Pakistan will certainly try to indigenously develop a way of ingtegrating the two systems, giving Pakistan supreme coverage and increased capability in warfare.



Bro, your numbers are a little off.
5 Saabs will be inducted but one of them is a trainer aircraft that does not have an Erieye radar installed, so 4 Erieye AEW/C aircraft along with one more Saab 2000 for aircrew training. The training aircraft is in Pakistan right now, first Erieye-equipped AEW/C aircraft should arrive very soon this year I believe.
About KJ-2000s. KJ-*2000* is a very big platform comparable to InAF's Phalcon:
KJ-2000 Airborne Warning & Control System - SinoDefence.com
PAF is NOT going for this. From what we know, PAF is going for either one of these two platforms:

Y-8 Balance Beam (aka KJ-*200*): "Gaoxin Project" - Y-8 Electronic Warfare Aircraft - SinoDefence.com (scroll down to see KJ-200) which is very similar to Erieye, but less advanced.

Y-8 Rotodome: Y-8 Rotodome Airborne Early Warning Aircraft - SinoDefence.com

Four of the chosen system have been ordered, but we are still not 100&#37; sure which has been ordered. What we do know is that the Rotodome version came to Pakistan (Chaklala airbase I think) several years ago and was evaluated by PAF (there is a picture in the gallery somewhere). They gave to the Chinese a list of improvements they wanted to be made on the aircraft, one of which apparently was to reduce the cabin sound levels to increase comfort for the radar operators. 

I'm pretty sure that is all we know at the moment, anybody else please add what you know and correct me if I am wrong anywhere.


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## blain2

There will be no rotodome AEW platforms for the PAF. That design is no longer considered to be optimized.

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## Quwa

According to Usman Shabbir on PakDef, the PAF is getting 4 KJ-200 (balance beam) designated as ZDK03. Looking through Chinese sources, the PAF may develop its own AWACS in the future as China will "transfer some AWACS technology" (link).

Regarding Erieye, note that PN may not get the Hawkeye 2000 it previously requested. It is possible that PN may order 3 Erieye instead, though this is my opinion. Should note that Saab completed its feasibility studies of integrating Erieye to the ATR-series. It's interesting because the ATR-72 ASW/MP is pitched as a new-gen MPA that might interest PN when it plans to phase-out the P-3Cs. I think it would suit anyone in the long-run to maintain strong commonality with their Erieye and MPA...

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...icture-saab-unveils-c-295-erieye-concept.html

http://www.deagel.com/Maritime-Patrol-Aircraft/ATR-72-ASW_a000090004.aspx

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## blain2

If PN ever go for Erieye, I hope its on the exact same platform as that of the PAF. Commonality of platforms ensures that support and engineering skill sets can be shared across the two sister services to maintain these assets. More platform types mean more headaches with supply chain, engineering skills etc.

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## Quwa

blain2 said:


> If PN ever go for Erieye, I hope its on the exact same platform as that of the PAF. Commonality of platforms ensures that support and engineering skill sets can be shared across the two sister services to maintain these assets. More platform types mean more headaches with supply chain, engineering skills etc.


Possibly, but on the other hand would it not be better to standardize Erieye and a future MPA on the same platform? I remember H Khan on PakDef clearly stating that PN would consider replacing the P-3Cs after 2019...

In any case, I do remember the days when Pakistan was negotiating for Erieye, we hard a figure of 6 systems - 4 for PAF and 2 for PN. I think Erieye for PN is fairly possible.

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## blain2

I think the discussion around 4 for PAF and 2 for PN was hypothetical based on hearsay. Now I may be mistaken but do you recall hearing anything official about PN showing an interest in two aircraft? Secondly, why would PN need their own AEW aircraft? Why could PAF not attach 1 or 2 AEW aircraft to Southern Air Command to help out with the PN. The SAC already supports the PN greatly. Similar to No 8 TAS with Mirage Vs, we could provide AEW support to the PN as well.

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## Myth_buster_1

Mark Sien said:


> Should note that Saab completed its feasibility studies of integrating Erieye to the ATR-series. It's interesting because the ATR-72 ASW/MP is pitched as a new-gen MPA that might interest PN when it plans to phase-out the P-3Cs. I think it would suit anyone in the long-run to maintain strong commonality with their Erieye and MPA...
> 
> PICTURE: Saab unveils C-295 Erieye concept
> 
> ATR 72 ASW / ATR 72 MP



or we could opt for SAAB-2000 MPA.

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## Quwa

PC said:


> or we could opt for SAAB-2000 MPA.


Unfortunately the Saab-2000 MPA lacks the ASW and AShW capabilities that P-3C, P-8 and ATR-72 ASW/MP have.

http://www.saabgroup.com/NR/rdonlyr...375614DFECA8/7521/Saab_2000_MPA_Datasheet.pdf

*blain2*

Wouldn't dedicated AEW&C/AWACS in PN complete the network-centric system to connect surface ships, aviation and sub-surface assets? Couldn't this be a burden on the PAF (unless it has more AEW&C)?

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## Myth_buster_1

Mark Sien said:


> Unfortunately the Saab-2000 MPA lacks the ASW and AShW capabilities that P-3C, P-8 and ATR-72 ASW/MP have.
> 
> http://www.saabgroup.com/NR/rdonlyr...375614DFECA8/7521/Saab_2000_MPA_Datasheet.pdf



just how could you judge a system's cabability when its just a concept? all we know that Saab is currently working on MPA, and SIGSTAR that could be of PAF/PN's interests. again, the true capability is still not known and neither will be available online.


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## Quwa

PC said:


> just how could you judge a system's cabability when its just a concept? all we know that Saab is currently working on MPA, and SIGSTAR that could be of PAF/PN's interests. again, the true capability is still not known and neither will be available online.


I can judge because the official Saab document clearly shows the reader that the Saab 2000 MPA does not have anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare capabilities. These are not secret abilities that would make one aircraft a decisive choice over another, but simply profiles directed towards potential customers. 

In fact the Saab 2000 MPA is for customers who are interested in the following as per their official document:

 Tasked identification of maritime targets
 Maritime Surveillance and Reconnaissance (MSAR)
 Maritime border security
 Counter smuggling surveillance
 Search and Rescue (SAR)
 Illegal immigration control
 Fisheries inspection and management
 Oil slick investigation

....so do you see anything about anti-ship (AShW) or anti-submarine (ASW) warfare on the list?

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## Myth_buster_1

Mark Sien said:


> I can judge because the official Saab document clearly shows the reader that the Saab 2000 MPA does not have anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare capabilities. These are not secret abilities that would make one aircraft a decisive choice over another, but simply profiles directed towards potential customers.
> ....so do you see anything about anti-ship (AShW) or anti-submarine (ASW) warfare on the list?



like i have said, saab-2000 mpa is just a concept at the moment and could envolve into a multi-role armed version with RBS-15 and torpedoes as Swed would like to have a dedicated AShW and ASW MPA system of their own.
lets not for sake of winning the argument downplay other systems. 

one other worthy of notice. P-3C upgrade III should have 20+ years of service in PN but atlantique is what we should be expecting to be replaced by either ATR-72 or saab-2000 MPA in near future. and i think Saab-MPA could have a better chance if they come up with AShW ASW multi-role system and that PN choices Erieye.


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## Arsalan

blain2 said:


> If PN ever go for Erieye, I hope its on the exact same platform as that of the PAF. Commonality of platforms ensures that support and engineering skill sets can be shared across the two sister services to maintain these assets. More platform types mean more headaches with supply chain, engineering skills etc.



thats right sir but will the system be good enough for both services,,, i mean i it is ment to be an airforce or land security aircraft will it be equally good for the sea warfare,, 
if it is so ot will be really great, rather in this case pakistan should have opted for one kind of system for both

please excuse my ignorance


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## Arsalan

so to conclude we can say that currently we are not operating any such system, not with the airforce nor with navy,,

am i right??


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## Quwa

PC said:


> like i have said, saab-2000 mpa is just a concept at the moment and could envolve into a multi-role armed version with RBS-15 and torpedoes as Swed would like to have a dedicated AShW and ASW MPA system of their own.
> lets not for sake of winning the argument downplay other systems.
> 
> one other worthy of notice. P-3C upgrade III should have 20+ years of service in PN but atlantique is what we should be expecting to be replaced by either ATR-72 or saab-2000 MPA in near future. and i think Saab-MPA could have a better chance if they come up with AShW ASW multi-role system and that PN choices Erieye.


There may be possibilities, however the Saab MPA cannot be counted as an alternative to ATR-72, P-8, P-3, etc, until we know for certain it will have AShW and ASW capabilities. However the Saab 2000 MPA might be a potential replacement system for the Fokker aircraft, as their roles match up pretty closely. 

Normally the need to know issues are settled even at the conceptual stages. You might speculate what radar the aircraft could use, but its missions roles are always settled during development. For example with the Kawasaki P-1, its mission parameters - such as AShW and ASW - were disclosed when they revealed the concept. 

Regarding P-3C's life, I'm a bit unaware of how many years it can last, if you can shed light on it, that'd be great. The PN will operate them for at least another decade, but will begin looking for a replacement soon after 2019. The aircraft themselves may not be replaced until 2029.

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## JK!

What about using the Indonesian CN 235 as the basis for these specialist aircraft?


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## Myth_buster_1

Mark Sien said:


> There may be possibilities, however the Saab MPA cannot be counted as an alternative to ATR-72, P-8, P-3, etc, until we know for certain it will have AShW and ASW capabilities..



wait, you do know.
ATR-72MP/ ATR-42MP, EADS C-295MPA/C-235MPA, Dassault's Falcon 900MPA Embraer P-99A are *medium range *MPA
P-3C P-8 P-X A-319 MPA etc are *heavy range* MPA

When Sweden revealed "Erieye" system, it was only "AEW" but later it was evolved into "CS" for costomers. Even Pakistan requested diffrent systems for its platform which was not even revealed in original "Saab-340 AEW" and even the platform was diffrent for PAF. 
Just alone the Saab-2000 platform has more potential for MPA role then ATR-72. the wheel carage is not underbelly thus it can adopt "armament bay" for missiles and torpedos like P-3 or P-8 while ATR-72 has only 4 hardpoints. 



> Regarding P-3C's life, I'm a bit unaware of how many years it can last, if you can shed light on it, that'd be great. The PN will operate them for at least another decade, but will begin looking for a replacement soon after 2019. The aircraft themselves may not be replaced until 2029


lindsyebanks is probibly the most reliable sourse outside PN officials that we know of. Our P-3 fleet are fairly young they were the last batch to come out of the assambly line. lets see if we can get hold of her again as she will answer this question more factually. 
ok lets just assume that these 10 P-3 are to be replaced by 2025-30, you think a medium role MPA ATR-72 will be suitable to replace heavy MPA P-3? by 20 years the MPA world would be very diffrent we could have other systems in the market. probibly Airbush-319 MPA should be of PN's interusts to replace P-3. 
ATR-72MPA is currently running a competition for Indian navy "medium range MPA" and if its chosen then the chances are none for PN!


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## Myth_buster_1

JK! said:


> What about using the Indonesian CN 235 as the basis for these specialist aircraft?



CN-235 have limited MPA capability however the larger version "CN-395" 
MPA version comes with an advanced surveillance system, and can carry torpedoes and AShM, though it does not carry any sonobuoy launchers. so it has limited anti-sub capability.


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## Quwa

PC said:


> wait, you do know.
> ATR-72MP/ ATR-42MP, EADS C-295MPA/C-235MPA, Dassault's Falcon 900MPA Embraer P-99A are *medium range *MPA
> P-3C P-8 P-X A-319 MPA etc are *heavy range* MPA


Yeah I know, but the issue at that point was the capability to deploy weapon-systems and mission profile. The ATR-72 MPA and Saab 2000 MPA are being pitched for different needs.


> When Sweden revealed "Erieye" system, it was only "AEW" but later it was evolved into "CS" for costomers. Even Pakistan requested diffrent systems for its platform which was not even revealed in original "Saab-340 AEW" and even the platform was diffrent for PAF.


They changed the *platform* and upgraded the radar & suite...what does this have to do with an aircraft's physical payload?


> Just alone the Saab-2000 platform has more potential for MPA role then ATR-72. the wheel carage is not underbelly thus it can adopt "armament bay" for missiles and torpedos like P-3 or P-8 while ATR-72 has only 4 hardpoints.


We'll see, right now Saab 2000 is being offered for a different set of requirements - seemingly closer to PN's Fokkers. It's strange that after going all out on Gripen NG, Saab doesn't like to tell customers the -2000 MPA's full-range of potential as you're implying.


> lindsyebanks is probibly the most reliable sourse outside PN officials that we know of. Our P-3 fleet are fairly young they were the last batch to come out of the assambly line. lets see if we can get hold of her again as she will answer this question more factually.


I'll take your word for it, thanks for the author (I'll find something from her)


> ok lets just assume that these 10 P-3 are to be replaced by 2025-30, you think a medium role MPA ATR-72 will be suitable to replace heavy MPA P-3? by 20 years the MPA world would be very diffrent we could have other systems in the market. probibly Airbush-319 MPA should be of PN's interusts to replace P-3.


We'll see, right now the ATR-72 actually secured orders and the A319/320 MPAs are yet to do so. However to be fair to Airbus, they're not planning on any heavy marketing until the 2010-2020 decade starts.

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## Arsalan

*sorry for being off the topic*

kindly do visit:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/20716-surface-air-missile.html

and share you knowledge

thankyou for your co-operation


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## Myth_buster_1

Mark Sien said:


> We'll see, right now the ATR-72 actually secured orders and the A319/320 MPAs are yet to do so. However to be fair to *Airbus, they're not planning on any heavy marketing until the 2010-2020 decade starts*.



when PN decides to phase out P-3, the A-319 should be ready by then.
ATR-72 or even a "armed" version Saab-2000 MPA wont be a suitable choice to replace more capable multi-role P-3 in PN, infact it would be great if either platform are inducted much quicker to replace aging atlantiques. 
but what chance would ATR have if for say india selects them.


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## chirag.s

hi guys just found these not sure if its posted earlier





























continued

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## chirag.s

hi guys got 2 more ,here it is 











not dure if its posted earlier anyways enjoy

thank you

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## Arsalan

*Thankyou chirag.s for your informative post. *

it was quite difficult to read some parts of it due to its size.

can you please provide its link.


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## chirag.s

sorry but i don't have the link got it from my friend maybe you can try the saab website  but you can download it from the link below anyway

guys earlier i tried to post the original ones but they are REALLY BIG so i resized them if you have problems in reading im uploading on ZSHARE u can download the originals in 1186x1600 resolution here is the link 

zSHARE - saab erieye by chirag.rar

thank you

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## PAFAce

I am seeing different figures in different places. Can anyone tell me how many SAAB 2000s and ZDK-03s we have ordered? On Wikipedia it says five of each, which is what I had previously believed to be true. Is this the case?

Also, what exactly is the difference between the KJ-2000 and the ZDK-03, as the latter is based on the former. (this may have been posted before but I couldn't find it)


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## Myth_buster_1

PAFAce said:


> I am seeing different figures in different places. Can anyone tell me how many SAAB 2000s and ZDK-03s we have ordered? On Wikipedia it says five of each, which is what I had previously believed to be true. Is this the case?
> 
> Also, what exactly is the difference between the KJ-2000 and the ZDK-03, as the latter is based on the former. (this may have been posted before but I couldn't find it)



4 Erieye AEW&CS + 1 Saab-2000 "trani"
4 ZDK-03 improved platform with better crew comfort.


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## hj786

Agree with the above post by PC.



PAFAce said:


> Also, what exactly is the difference between the KJ-2000 and the ZDK-03, as the latter is based on the former. (this may have been posted before but I couldn't find it)



No no no, ZDK-03 is based on KJ-200, but improved according to PAF's requirements.

KJ-2000:
KJ-2000 Airborne Warning & Control System - SinoDefence.com

ZDK-03 aka KJ-200, notice the radar is similar to Erieye:
"Gaoxin Project" - Y-8 Electronic Warfare Aircraft - SinoDefence.com (scroll down)


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## PAFAce

hj786 said:


> Agree with the above post by PC.
> 
> No no no, ZDK-03 is based on KJ-200, but improved according to PAF's requirements.
> 
> ZDK-03 aka KJ-200, notice the radar is similar to Erieye:
> "Gaoxin Project" - Y-8 Electronic Warfare Aircraft - SinoDefence.com (scroll down)



Thank you for clearing that up. KJ-200 is currently under development, so this will be difficult to answer, but where will KJ-200/ZDK-03 stand in comparison to the other Chinese AWACS and the Erieye. Seeing that it is under development and Pakistan has a say in the design of the ZDK-03, I assume they will try to match it to the Erieye.


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## Arsalan

sorry to miss some post but are we going for the ZDK-03 or the actual KJ200??

the point may already have been mentioned for sorry for missing it, can anybody please guide me here???

thankyou


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## superbikez

Pakistan is going for KJ2000 ?????


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## hj786

PAFAce said:


> Thank you for clearing that up. KJ-200 is currently under development, so this will be difficult to answer, but where will KJ-200/ZDK-03 stand in comparison to the other Chinese AWACS and the Erieye. Seeing that it is under development and Pakistan has a say in the design of the ZDK-03, I assume they will try to match it to the Erieye.


No problem. Of course ZDK-03 will not be as capable as KJ-2000, but will be comparable to Erieye. From what I have read, Erieye might have better multi-role capability, i.e. it performs well in ground and sea surveillance, as well as aerial surveillance, but I'm not sure. Anyway, with some software upgrades ZDK can easily be made on par if not better than Erieye (if it is not already). 

I personally think the reason Erieye was procured was not only to utilise Swedish experience and training for introduction of AEW&C capability to PAF, but also to datalink with F-16s using Link-16. 
I think it might be easier to integrate Erieye with the JF-17 datalink system than integrating F-16's Link-16 datalink with the ZDK-03 system. 



arsalanaslam123 said:


> sorry to miss some post but are we going for the ZDK-03 or the actual KJ200??
> the point may already have been mentioned for sorry for missing it, can anybody please guide me here???
> thankyou


If you read the above posts bro, you will find ZDK-03 is the PAF name for KJ-200, like JF-17 is the PAF name for FC-1.

superbikez why don't you do what everybody else does and *read* the above posts to find the answer to your question?

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## fatman17

*AWACS will change Asia's military dynamics*

By Hari Sud

February 06, 2009

Toronto, ON, Canada, &#8212; Three weeks ago, an Indian AWACS &#8211; airborne warning and control system &#8211; plane made its debut over New Delhi. Two more are on order and will arrive in a year&#8217;s time. Additional purchases of this top-of-the-line plane in the near future will enhance India&#8217;s defensive posture against both China and Pakistan.
A deal with Israel in 2004 to supply the Phalcon radar, which uses Active Phased Array Electronic Scanning Technology, cost India US$1.1 billion. Russia supplied India with its highly upgraded IL-76TD workhorse planes, which are fitted with powerful PS-90 engines, via Kazakhstan. This aircraft and its engines have been modified for the hot and humid climate of India.

The above-mentioned acquisition is a force multiplier for the Indian Air Force. AWACS aircraft are able to detect any enemy airborne activity &#8211; including when and were enemy planes take off from bases up to 300 kilometers (186 miles) away and the direction in which they are heading &#8211; while staying 100 kilometers (62 miles) within its own border.

Two of these AWACS aircraft patrolling the western front, well within India&#8217;s territory, can cover the sensitive Punjab-Rajasthan border. The Phalcon radar, the most sophisticated to date, can also collect surface information about troop movements and missile launches and can listen into highly confidential communications between Pakistan&#8217;s frontline units.

Militarily, surveillance and advance knowledge of enemy activity is ultimately a force multiplier. An earlier version of this plane was used during the Arab-Israeli conflict of 1973. Israelis shot down most of the Syrian and Egyptian planes without losing any to the enemy, using the early version. The United States also used it during the Gulf War to take out Iraqi planes. The remaining Iraqi pilots of MiG-23s and MiG-29s fled to Iran to escape the terror in the sky. 

Israelis and Americans gave this technology the name AWACS because of its long-range capability. Similar technology mounted on a smaller but very capable plane is called AEW&C, for Airborne Early Warning & Control. Since India has a great deal of territory to cover, acquisition of smaller, more flexible planes with mounted surveillance radars makes sense. In this case, the radar and electronics can be homemade. India&#8217;s choice of aircraft for its own AEW&C system is Brazil&#8217;s Embraer 145 business/regional jet plane. 

The key word here is operational flexibility. Whereas the IL-76 AWACS aircraft requires a lot of area to take off and land, the Embraer can take off and land at smaller airports. This is key to a layered approach to surveillance, including hostile missiles. 

*What does India&#8217;s hostile neighbor have for aerial surveillance?*

Pakistan does not want India to have the upper hand. Although it has U.S. money handy to match India&#8217;s military spending, nobody is selling them the advanced AWACS. So, they have settled for six Swedish SAAB-2000 turbo prop planes with Ericsson surveillance radars. The deal is worth US$1.5 billion.

They would have preferred U.S. or Israeli phased ray radar but its unavailability changed their choice to SAAB/Ericsson. The latter is equipped with Saab Microwave Systems, Erieye surveillance radar and nine-hour loitering capability. This is as good as what the Swedes can supply, but lacks actual battlefield experience. At best these are comparable to India&#8217;s homegrown AEW&C. 

China lost to India when they negotiated the same deal with Israel to buy Phalcons in 2000-2001 as U.S. intervention prevented the technology transfer. The hardware, which could have gone to the Chinese, was switched to India. 

Like India in the late nineties, China began experimenting with home built AWACS. Initially they turned to Russia and purchased Beriev A-50 radar planes. These are exact copies of the U.S. E-3 Sentry radar planes except that they were mounted on Russian Il-76 aircrafts. Totally dissatisfied, they began experimenting with their own phased ray radar. Their experimental AWACS crashed in 2006, killing forty of their best scientists and technicians. China wants to dump it in favor of Boeing 737-800 planes. 

The Boeing plane with homemade Chinese radars is dubbed as KJ-2000. Equipped by the most modern technology, which China can lay its hands on, three such planes are being built. The KJ-2000&#8217;s radar has a range of about 300 kilometers. It is the nearest match to what the U.S. flies in and around Taiwan. Although the Chinese are happy with their decision, improvements are a long way off in the absence of relevant technology, which it has not yet received. 

Realizing that India is ahead in this force multiplier acquisition and nobody else is able to supply them, Pakistan has been making attempts to convince the Chinese to acquire similar planes on their behalf for an undisclosed sum.

Last year the Chinese KJ-2000 was seen at Pakistan&#8217;s Chakalala airport giving an operational demonstration. China is very keen to secure a deal with Pakistan on these aircrafts, as it will help them defray their huge developmental costs.

The intimidation factor of AWACS is immense. Imagine Pakistan planning a major air raid in India over Srinagar, Kashmir and poised to fly super secret missions from its airports in Rawalpindi, Sialkote, and Sargodha, which are about 200 kilometers from the Indian border. The success of such missions depend on the element of surprise they achieve and an Indian AWACS flying a surveillance mission in a wide arc over Kashmir, Punjab and the Ladakh region can detect Pakistan&#8217;s aerial movements and ambush it.

Concurrently, the Swedish made Pakistani AEW&C and possibly Chinese AWACS can also detect India&#8217;s movements. Realizing that the mission is doomed Pakistan&#8217;s high command could call off the raids. So, AWACS can avoid an ugly aerial fight. 

AWACS and AEW&C planes are not invulnerable. They fly 200-300 kilometers away from the hostile war zones. A concerted effort from enemy fighters could force it to retreat far beyond its 300-kilometer safe distance. As a turbo-prop heavy lift plane is very vulnerable to Beyond-Visual-Range attacks, it needs an escort of fighters to ward off such threats. 

Imagine a Chinese air attack on central Indian air bases in the wake of their ground losses in India&#8217;s Ladakh region or their inability to capture Twang in the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh. They could send their SU-27&#8217;s over the Himalayas from bases far away or send cruise missiles from bases closer to the Tibet-India border. The early knowledge of incoming planes or missiles will help India in beating back the air attack and saving its air assets. Without the early warnings from AWACS, Indian airbases are very vulnerable to enemy attacks. So, AWACS is a big asset.

At sea, India&#8217;s recent contract with Boeing for six, P-8I, long-range reconnaissance planes will greatly enhance India&#8217;s sea reconnaissance capability. These planes will be data linked with other air surveillance planes, surface ships and space based assets. This US$2.1 billion purchase together with AWACS and AEW&C are designed to warn hostile forces to stay as far away from Indian interests as possible. 

Still, all the forgoing is an enhanced defensive posture of India. It will soon be enhanced with locally developed and externally purchased fighter jets, which will take the fight to the enemy.

The shape of India&#8217;s armed forces, which was dull and dreary for the last fifty years, is about to be modernized with an offensive punch in next 5 to 10 years.

--

(Hari Sud is a retired vice president of C-I-L Inc., a former investment strategies analyst and international relations manager. A graduate of Punjab University and the University of Missouri, he has lived in Canada for the past 34 years. &#169;Copyright Hari Sud.)


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## Myth_buster_1

^ Hari Sud is a joke! i am sure defence.pk can come up with better analysis.


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## hj786

PC said:


> ^ Hari Sud is a joke! i am sure defence.pk can come up with better analysis.


Yup, that must be the most laughably inaccurate article on AWACS in South Asia that has ever been concieved. 

"India's hostile neighbour"  As if India has never been hostile to Pakistan.

fatman please edit your post and delete that article, it is so full of crap.


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## fatman17

hj786 said:


> Yup, that must be the most laughably inaccurate article on AWACS in South Asia that has ever been concieved.
> 
> "India's hostile neighbour"  As if India has never been hostile to Pakistan.
> 
> fatman please edit your post and delete that article, it is so full of crap.



friend - there is no need to delete - if one dosnt agree, that is ok - you have made your viewpoint and that is fine!

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## fatman17

By the way naval sources which remain "un-named" confirm that 4 Hawkeye 2000s AEW will be procured by the PN mounted on the P 3C airframe. the 5th airframe will be used for spares.

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## Zob

Ok Mr.Hari doesn't realise a fact that PAKISTAN has a defensive posture and not INDIA....i mean we are the ones that talk about minimum detterance....i swear sometimes the ridiculous things the indians say make me wonder do they honestly believe the cr*p they say.....


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## hj786

fatman17 said:


> friend - there is no need to delete - if one dosnt agree, that is ok - you have made your viewpoint and that is fine!


I guess you were just showing the viewpoint of certain people, I hope they continue to under-estimate the PAF and Chinese equipment.


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## notorious_eagle

hj786 said:


> I guess you were just showing the viewpoint of certain people, I hope they continue to under-estimate the PAF and Chinese equipment.



So thats good for us , they were already stunned when PAF foiled their plans for surgical strikes .


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## MastanKhan

fatman17 said:


> friend - there is no need to delete - if one dosnt agree, that is ok - you have made your viewpoint and that is fine!




Hi Fatman,

Thankyou for that article----this piece is a great insight into the mind of the opponent---he is letting us know right upfront where his head is---what his capabilities are and how he looks at our abilities and performance.

Now---we know more about ourselves---so this notice helps us in many ways---if we are below or are at par with this article---it is a time for a reality check and do things differently and find a new medium to take us to the next level----but if we are ahead of the curve and our opponent doesnot know about it---then it is time for us fine tune our capabilities a little more.

So---all in all---this piece gets my blessings. Thankyou Hari for your time.

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## Luftwaffe

Hari sud forgot Swedish saab erieye 2000 AWACS is AESA based pwing he'll be singing oops i did it again!! haha


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## Zob

the most bias article ever....by the way can we integrate KJ200,SAAB EREIYE & ALL THE WESTERN FIGHTERS.... i mean i can see a logistical nightmare in the making... and given our transport is lacking currently.. the situation can get really dire....


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## z9-ec

I don't know if this was posted before but Kanwa Asian Defence is reporting that the first PAF Saab 2000 is at the final stage of testing and the aircraft will soon be with PAF. This was published on 2009-01-30 at the Kanwa website.



> Kanwa News, Andrei Chang: A source from the Swedish SAAB Company told Kanwa that the first SAAB2000 AEW&C aircraft that the company developed for the Pakistani Air Force is now at the final stage of testing and will be delivered to Pakistan in 2009. This AEW&C aircraft was put on display at Farnborough Air Show 2008.

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## Zob

well our ACM had said last year at the Defence day that the first SAAB would be given to us in 2009 and after trials and testing in our airspace the system will be inducted into our Airforce by mid 2009. So yes... it will be just like the indians got there Phalcons but are still under going testing in there airspace we will also start our testing soon. tc

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## TOPGUN

Cant wait to see the pic's of our saab soon!


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## blain2

Just looking back at some of the interviews that CAS, PAF has given, I wanted to bring one issue to light and that is the integration of the fighters with the AEW platforms. Some have suggested that PAF would have a two tier approach. Chinese fighters linked to the Chinese AEW platforms and western platforms (F-16 etc.) linked to the Erieye. I think this is a fallacy and believe that all of the platforms will be on one grid and Data Linked to the Erieye as well as the Chinese solution. 

A further proof of this was provided in a slightly old interview of the CAS with Dawn, take a read:




> Q. What are measures taken for this system to be compatible with PAF fighters?
> Ans. *All *the combat aircraft in PAF&#8217;s inventory will be linked to the Erieye system by a data link. *New as well as upgraded F-16s, F-10A and JF-17 Thunders are equipped with data links*. We are moving towards Network centric Warfare, and for that we have worked out on a plan for the modernization of Pakistan Airforce.



To me, the above proves beyond a shadow of doubt that all of the PAF assets would be managed by the Erieye regardless of the origin (I.e. Chinese or US)

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## fatman17

blain2 said:


> Just looking back at some of the interviews that CAS, PAF has given, I wanted to bring one issue to light and that is the integration of the fighters with the AEW platforms. Some have suggested that PAF would have a two tier approach. Chinese fighters linked to the Chinese AEW platforms and western platforms (F-16 etc.) linked to the Erieye. I think this is a fallacy and believe that all of the platforms will be on one grid and Data Linked to the Erieye as well as the Chinese solution.
> 
> A further proof of this was provided in a slightly old interview of the CAS with Dawn, take a read:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me, the above proves beyond a shadow of doubt that all of the PAF assets would be managed by the Erieye regardless of the origin (I.e. Chinese or US)



this is huge if it is achieved!


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## hj786

Notice in this picture there are some antennas sticking out from the top of KJ-200 aka ZDK-03, just in front of the radar array. If they are satellite communication antennas, then wouldn't it suggest that PAF has access to a satellite for communications at least?


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## Arsalan

hj786 said:


> Notice in this picture there are some antennas sticking out from the top of KJ-200 aka ZDK-03, just in front of the radar array. If they are satellite communication antennas, then wouldn't it suggest that PAF has access to a satellite for communications at least?



are you sure where the pic was taken!!

i mean instead of guess that the PAF have access to communication satellite just from the antennas we could also think that this plane do not belong to us!!!


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## zombie:-)

antennas pointing up does not mean its for satellite communication but for satellite com. u need antennas pointing upward and the satellite may of any origin


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## MaXimMaRz

**

*Since it is a Force multiplier , it needs to be guarded , for that need depth and that my friend is missing.... moreover how do yo plan to deploy it ? is it going to be near FEBA or at the rear? if at the rear then it isn't of much se ! if yo try to use it for strike guidance and recovery yo need additional CAP to safe gard it , and what about the BVR scenario, that too at high altitude !!!*


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## MaXimMaRz

*I dont think AWACS wold be cost effective, What we need is a Potent BVR like A-darter or R-darter...and Grippen wold work as the Poor man's F-16 , Pulse our Aircraft needs AIs ....Some really Good up gradation *


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## MaXimMaRz

jaman_thakkar said:


> well what to prove???PHALCON IS THE WORLDS MOST ADVANCED AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING SYSTEM...even more advanced than NATO's E-3 C sentry which uses machanically rotating antenna(rotodome) so let alone eyrie...
> 
> 
> this link will prove that phalcon is the worlds most advanced awacs.(read carefully)



Sorry to break your bubble BuT NO phalcon cant do that.... and by the way all the modern radars are Active Phased array radars, wether they r ground based or air ....and jamming isn't a child's play....just like yo have smart jammers there are smart transmitters...try to read about ECCM

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## ALi Rizwan

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - PAF to start serial production of JF17 fighter aircraft soon



> About the delivery of AWACS system to Pakistan, he*(Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed)* said that agreement had already been reached with a Chinese firm which would start its delivery by 2010.
> 
> On the delivery of first AWACS system Pakistan would pay 10 % cost of the aircraft while the rest would be paid on easy installments basis, he said.


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## MaXimMaRz

*I am Still wondering, Who Planned to Bring in these things....*

1. Where are we gonna use them ?

2. How are we gonna protect them?

3. What sort of missions will they undertake?

4. It wont be in an offensive stance, due to sevral reasons , isnt it ?


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## Munir

250 JF17's, 36 J10's and some 90 Block52 can do the job easily... Protecting doesn't mean you need hundreds of airplanes... 50&#37; will be airborne and even then we will have double view, add to that ground based radars and you will have somethin unhealthy for our opponent.

The Indians are making much noise about that they are now being to able to see through Pakistan... Well, They did that in the past pretty good. Pakistan is a flat area and it is easy to have some people watching somwthing going up. We had problems with Indian depth. Now we can look 300-400 km inside India... We can see every troop movement. We can see every ship. We can see every plane... Certainly the huge RCS of the MKI...


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## araz

Munir said:


> 250 JF17's, 36 J10's and some 90 Block52 can do the job easily... Protecting doesn't mean you need hundreds of airplanes... 50% will be airborne and even then we will have double view, add to that ground based radars and you will have somethin unhealthy for our opponent.
> 
> The Indians are making much noise about that they are now being to able to see through Pakistan... Well, They did that in the past pretty good. Pakistan is a flat area and it is easy to have some people watching somwthing going up. We had problems with Indian depth. Now we can look 300-400 km inside India... We can see every troop movement. We can see every ship. We can see every plane... Certainly the huge RCS of the MKI...



Munir.
Brother I fully agree with your assessment. However, I dont think the numbers of F16Bl 52s are going to be there. Depending on regional situation PAF may wait for FC20 and induct it in larger numbers. Unless you meant all f16s rather than just Block 52s alone!! Have I misunderstood you ?


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## notorious_eagle

By the time all the F16's go through MLU and 18 new F16's arrive, we will have 78 F16 Block 52's. On top of that we are getting J10A's which is a very potent aircraft, J10B which is an advanced version of J10A will probablly be in PAF's inventory by 2014. So overall, in the past 10 years PAF has really leaped forward in terms of technology.


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## MaXimMaRz

Munir said:


> 250 JF17's, 36 J10's and some 90 Block52 can do the job easily... Protecting doesn't mean you need hundreds of airplanes... 50&#37; will be airborne and even then we will have double view, add to that ground based radars and you will have something unhealthy for our opponent.
> 
> The Indians are making much noise about that they are now being to able to see through Pakistan... Well, They did that in the past pretty good. Pakistan is a flat area and it is easy to have some people watching something going up. We had problems with Indian depth. Now we can look 300-400 km inside India... We can see every troop movement. We can see every ship. We can see every plane... Certainly the huge RCS of the MKI...



I am Pretty Shocked to hear that you carry this impression in mind that an airforce will keep 50% of its asset in the air at the same time to defend its ground !! Although it leaves no room for explanation cuz it means u need to the basics of Air Power Asset Management ( NO Offense). But i will still try to explain a few things for your consumption in the simplest form.

1. No Air Power in the world Works on the Principle of Massing AC in air.

2. The Moment you Bring 50% or Make it 30 % of ur assest in air at the same time, you will not just loose your Offensive Posture but in the next 3 to 4 hours they re going to come and Cook your Geese there and then.

3. Defending Your Land (In Air WARFARE senario) doesnt mean that you deploy AC all Along the border , Even Army dosent do that in a Conflict. You select Important Ingress routes of the enemy (ingress = Entry Points).

4. Then you calculate How much time you will get to intercept a perticular Strike , Now depending on that time You decide wether u gonna keep A pair of AC in Air At that point or you will keep them on ground and send them once u detect that threat.

5. Maintainable CAPS (combat air petrol ) in not a simple 2+2 = 4. There are some many variables involved like :
.. AC Endurance
.. The distance of the CAP point form its Ground station
.. The Height at which the AC is gonna operate ( mostly AC consumes more fuel at lower and higher altitude Brackets, Medium level is more fuel friendly. 
.. The Speed an AC maintain during its patrolling (AC operating on foward locations have to be at there best combat speed all the time , those operating at retarded positions have the liberty to maintain cruse speed)
and there are many more factors .......

6. Its a Complicated combination of Calculations carried out for every minute of the war...!!!

*7. AIRCRAFT ARE NOT SOLDIERS OR WAR HORSES THAT CAN BE DEALT SO EASILY*

and as far as your flat area theory of yours is concerned I HOPE IT DOESN'T MEAN WHAT I THINK IT MEANS...PLEASE EXPLAIN IT TO ME
NO offense , its just that u should know ...


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## Contrarian

Munir said:


> Now we can look 300-400 km inside India... We can see every troop movement..


No, you cant. Double check the range of Erieye with the target size-specially for aircrafts. Then think whether your AEW&C would be flying close to the border or far! Because that is the extreme detection range of Erieye, in a focussed beam in one sector...for ship sized targets.


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## Dil Pakistan

Air Marshal Rao Qamar is appointed the Air Chief of Pakistan. Can anyone please shed some light on his career and him as a person in this role (comparing with the previous two chiefs - Kalim Saadat and Tanvir Mehmood). My concern is that this appointment has been made by Mr 10&#37; !!!!!!!!!!


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## hj786

malaymishra123 said:


> No, you cant. Double check the range of Erieye with the target size-specially for aircrafts. Then think whether your AEW&C would be flying close to the border or far! Because that is the extreme detection range of Erieye, in a focussed beam in one sector...for ship sized targets.


EMB-145 Erieye Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft - Air Force Technology
"The instrumented range is 450km and a typical detection range against a fighter aircraft size target is in excess of 350km."
Saab - Technology for a Changing World - Products A-Z
"450 km range and above 20 km (65,000 ft) altitude coverage"

Neither you nor I know the actual range of Saab 2000 Erieye against any target, whether it is a ship or an aircraft. If you have anything to support your claim, please post it.


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## mean_bird

hj786 said:


> EMB-145 Erieye Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft - Air Force Technology
> "The instrumented range is 450km and a typical detection range against a fighter aircraft size target is in excess of 350km."
> Saab - Technology for a Changing World - Products A-Z
> "450 km range and above 20 km (65,000 ft) altitude coverage"
> 
> Neither you nor I know the actual range of Saab 2000 Erieye against any target, whether it is a ship or an aircraft. If you have anything to support your claim, please post it.




Just to add, a "standard" or "normal" fighter is 5m&#178; and a rough formula to calculate range for a radar for any fighter can be calculated as 

Detection range = ( RCS(fighter)/RCS (standard fighter) )&#168;0.25 * Range (standard fighter).

If range = 350km, and RCS of Su-30 (estimated) = 15m&#178;

Therefore detection range = (15/5)^0.25 *350 = 460, or since the instrumental range is 450km, that mean an Su - 30 can be detected at 450km.

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## MaXimMaRz

mean_bird said:


> Just to add, a "standard" or "normal" fighter is 5m² and a rough formula to calculate range for a radar for any fighter can be calculated as
> 
> Detection range = ( RCS(fighter)/RCS (standard fighter) )¨0.25 * Range (standard fighter).
> 
> If range = 350km, and RCS of Su-30 (estimated) = 15m²
> 
> Therefore detection range = (15/5)^0.25 *350 = 460, or since the instrumental range is 450km, that mean an Su - 30 can be detected at 450km.


1. Fighter size RCS is 2 meter square (Standard)

2.  Airliners or commercial Size is 4 meter Square 

*Refernce : "BASIC RADAR THEORY" by squalnik (author's name spelling i dont remember) Its there in the first chapter , some where u derive the max. theoratical range of a radar.*


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## mean_bird

MaXimMaRz said:


> 1. Fighter size RCS is 2 meter square (Standard)
> 
> 2. Airliners or commercial Size is 4 meter Square
> 
> *Refernce : "BASIC RADAR THEORY" by squalnik (author's name spelling i dont remember) Its there in the first chapter , some where u derive the max. theoratical range of a radar.*




That's completely false information you provided there.

A large jet aircraft (e.g KC-135) has an RCS of 100m², and the F-15 has an RCS of 12m².

Please provide a reference of what you are claiming...like something online that can be verified or take a picture of the page of that book and post it. I think you are mistaking something else or don't remember correctly. 

As for standard fighter size, its either 3m² or 5m²...as far as I remember its 5m²


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## MaXimMaRz

mean_bird said:


> That's completely false information you provided there.
> 
> A large jet aircraft (e.g KC-135) has an RCS of 100m², and the F-15 has an RCS of 12m².
> 
> Please provide a reference of what you are claiming...like something online that can be verified or take a picture of the page of that book and post it. I think you are mistaking something else or don't remember correctly.
> 
> As for standard fighter size, its either 3m² or 5m²...as far as I remember its 5m²


PAF dosent work on AS FAR AS THEY REMEMBER !!!
If you talk of standardization it means taking out an RCS that would be available to the radar all the time.

1. When ur AC is moving in on a radial heading or moving out form a RADAR the RCS is 2 meter square. Thats the minimum it gives and thats the Standard in most of force. 

2. When u calculate the minimum radar signal (returning back from a AC ) for Max. Radar range u take as 2 meter square.

whether u agree or not ......Air forces work on this principle...and i dont need to prove it ...whether u agree or not...it good u read about it on the net, but PAF and radar theory related to it dosent work according to the net


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## Contrarian

hj786 said:


> EMB-145 Erieye Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft - Air Force Technology
> "The instrumented range is 450km and a typical detection range against a fighter aircraft size target is in excess of 350km."
> Saab - Technology for a Changing World - Products A-Z
> "450 km range and above 20 km (65,000 ft) altitude coverage"
> 
> Neither you nor I know the actual range of Saab 2000 Erieye against any target, whether it is a ship or an aircraft. If you have anything to support your claim, please post it.



I said that the range of 400kms is SECTOR specific-ie in a focussed search(or extended search as you may call it), not general search. That range is not applicable.

RCS of Su-30 by estimates is 10sqm. Std is 2sqm. And standard is different for different Airforces. USAF IIRC uses 1sqm, Russia uses 3sqm as their standard.

Now recalculate your figures. Then factor in the distance from the border where the SAAB 2000 would be flying.


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## hj786

malaymishra123 said:


> I said that the range of 400kms is SECTOR specific-ie in a focussed search(or extended search as you may call it), not general search. That range is not applicable.


Please stop posting words and start posting sources.

According to Janes.com:
http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jav/jav_0511.html


> The Erieye AEW&C mission system radar is an active, phased-array, pulse-Doppler *sensor that can feed an onboard operator architecture* or downlink data (via an associated datalink subsystem) to a ground-based air defence network. The system employs a large aperture, dual-sided antenna array housed in a dorsal 'plank' fairing. The antenna is fixed, and the beam is electronically scanned, which provides for improved detection and significantly enhanced tracking performance compared with radar-dome antenna systems.Erieye detects and tracks air and sea targets out to the horizon (and beyond due to anomalous propagation) - *instrumented range has been measured at 450 km*. *Typical detection range against fighter-sized targets is approximately 350 km, in a 150&#176; broadside sector, both sides of the aircraft.* *Outside these sectors, performance is reduced in forward and aft directions.*Other system features include:Adaptive waveform generation (including digital, phase-coded pulse compression), signal processing and target trackingTrack While Scan (TWS)Low sidelobe values (throughout the system's angular coverage)Low- and medium-pulse repetition frequency operating modesFrequency agilityAir-to-air and sea surveillance modesTarget radar cross-section displayThe radar operates as a medium- to high-PRF pulse-Doppler, solid-state radar, in E/F-band (3 GHz), incorporating 192 two-way transmit/receive modules that combine to produce a pencil beam, steered as required within the operating 150&#176; sector each side of the aircraft (one side at a time). It is understood that Erieye has some ability to detect aircraft in the 30&#176; sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, but has no track capability in this sector. The aircraft could be manoeuvred to


PAF's Saab 2000 has 5/6 operator stations plus 2 command stations, therefore has command/control capability.
Erieye can scan fighters out to 350km in a 150 degree search area on each side.

According to this source, Saab 2000 Erieye AEW/C can sit 250km from the border, search for/monitor/track aircraft 100km inside the Indian border and command/control PAF fighters (as well as send radar pictures down to ground stations). What more does PAF need? 

Not only that, but the Chinese AEW/C has 4 turboprop engines so can fly higher than the twin turboprop Saab 2000 and therefore have greater range.


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## MaXimMaRz

hj786 said:


> Please stop posting words and start posting sources.
> 
> 
> Not only that, but the Chinese AEW/C has 4 turboprop engines so can fly higher than the twin turboprop Saab 2000 and therefore have greater range.



All AEW or AWACS fly at an altitude where they can use there full beam or lobe to its maximum, and cater for the earths curvature. Any thing flying above that level might increase or reduce its endurance interms of time but since it has already catered for the earths curvature climbing further up wont give u a better pic. 

Till the time your reciver sensitivety or incoming singnal doesnt increase (keeping rest of the variables constant) the range will remain the same. Cuz you electronic horaizan remains the same.

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## MaXimMaRz

The main reason for the birth of airborne radar is that it gives you a better low level coverage (interms of range) as it is airborne, it counters the earths curvature and gives u a better horaizan to scan (high to low). 

A ground based radar has the disadvantage of encountering screenings like mountains and other things, and its electronic or radar horaizan cant get beyond earths curvature (interms of low level scan only).

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## Contrarian

Your article just confirms what i said.

350kms range in an extended search mode-implying that other sectors suffer when using extended or sector search.

So its 350kms, at 150 degrees. It still means that i am validated when i said that Pakistan cannot get a 300-400kms look inside India.
That too in an extended search mode, not used for regular ops.


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## hj786

malaymishra123 said:


> Your article just confirms what i said.
> 350kms range in an extended search mode-implying that other sectors suffer when using extended or sector search.
> So its 350kms, at 150 degrees. It still means that i am validated when i said that Pakistan cannot get a 300-400kms look inside India.
> That too in an extended search mode, not used for regular ops.


Lets see... 


Jane's said:


> ...instrumented range has been measured at 450 km. Typical detection range against fighter-sized targets is approximately 350 km, in a 150&#176; broadside sector, both sides of the aircraft...


I don't see where it has validated your claims. According to this source Erieye can monitor a sector with angle 150 degrees and radius 350km on each side of the aircraft, therefore if it is flying parallel to the border, ~50km away from it, it can monitor fighters up to ~300km into India. This way it doesn't even need to search both the sectors, just the sector over India. We know that the phased array radar's performance decreases as the angle increases, so at angles smaller than 150 the detection range for fighter size targets will be greater than 350km. The area of the sector that is 90 degrees (perpendicular) to the radar will have higher range than 350. If I'm wrong, please show me where and how I'm wrong. 

Why do you keep talking about "extended search modes not used in regular ops" if you can't show me where you got that info?

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## MaXimMaRz

hj786 said:


> therefore if it is flying parallel to the border, ~50km away from it,



*50 KM !!! is way too less*


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## Contrarian

hj786 said:


> Lets see...
> 
> I don't see where it has validated your claims. According to this source Erieye can monitor a sector with angle 150 degrees and radius 350km on each side of the aircraft, therefore if it is flying parallel to the border, ~50km away from it, it can monitor fighters up to ~300km into India. This way it doesn't even need to search both the sectors, just the sector over India. We know that the phased array radar's performance decreases as the angle increases, so at angles smaller than 150 the detection range for fighter size targets will be greater than 350km. The area of the sector that is 90 degrees (perpendicular) to the radar will have higher range than 350. If I'm wrong, please show me where and how I'm wrong.


Ok, let me go by these very figures. 350kms broadside for fighter sized targets. The AEW&C would not be flying any closer than 100kms(and thats the minimum limit) close to the border. You still get 250kms. If PAF is extra cautious, it goes further down, and mind you. Its far better to be safe with AEW&C than take risks. IAF itself wont be flying closer than 100kms. In anycase they already use Aerostats near the western border with ranges already around 350kms. More are being bought.



> Why do you keep talking about "extended search modes not used in regular ops" if you can't show me where you got that info?


Where i got it is irrelevant. AESA's can be made to operate in different modes. Regular search is when the radar is searching the maximum degrees of search possible. However, when the operators get specific info about a threat in a particular sector, the aesa can be redirected to search only in that sector. All the T/r align their beams along that sector thus giving a greater range in that particular sector. That is extended, sector specific search. Which the Erieye would employ for fighter detection at 350kms at a 150degree angle broadside, both sides. Erieye has 360degree detection. However it doesnt mean that if you further reduce the searching angle, the detection goes further up.


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## mean_bird

MaXimMaRz said:


> PAF dosent work on AS FAR AS THEY REMEMBER !!!
> If you talk of standardization it means taking out an RCS that would be available to the radar all the time.
> 
> 1. When ur AC is moving in on a radial heading or moving out form a RADAR the RCS is 2 meter square. Thats the minimum it gives and thats the Standard in most of force.
> 
> 2. When u calculate the minimum radar signal (returning back from a AC ) for Max. Radar range u take as 2 meter square.
> 
> whether u agree or not ......Air forces work on this principle...and i dont need to prove it ...whether u agree or not...it good u read about it on the net, but PAF and radar theory related to it dosent work according to the net



You are stating something...doesn't have logic or reference , you are not willing to prove it...that's not the way to argue for something. 

If you have any reference or proof for your claim, please enlighten us and add to our knowledge. Merely stating so is not enough.


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## MaXimMaRz

malaymishra123 said:


> In anycase they already use Aerostats near the western border with ranges already around 350kms.



I wont Comment on the scan sectors and range of Erieye.. but let me assure you it can do the job as good as any other system....(we dont have to scan the whole world, we need it for the eastern front)

And Friend as far as your AEROSTATE GOES.....it think you got to check up those ranges again. I bet the practical ranges and theoratical ranges dont go beyond 180 km 

As far as the operations of AEROSTATS are concerned i think it can be raised up to 5000 ft. But sorry to say we are still eagerly waiting for the day where it is raised till even 3000 feet. back in late 2007 the one deployed north of Bhuj airfield was raised to only 500 ft. The problem is WIND !!!! 

In war i would love to see it deployed at that place and raised till 500 ft. Cuz that white tethered Balloon will be a Good Home on Becon !!! 
Check up the TOs again ...or may be go through its Practical RCI (Radar coverge indicator) , cuz i had the honor to go through it once


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## Contrarian

MaXimMaRz said:


> As far as the operations of AEROSTATS are concerned i think it can be raised up to 5000 ft. But sorry to say we are still eagerly waiting for the day where it is raised till even 3000 feet. back in late 2007 the one deployed north of Bhuj airfield was raised to only 500 ft. The problem is WIND !!!!
> 
> In war i would love to see it deployed at that place and raised till 500 ft. *Cuz that white tethered Balloon will be a Good Home on Becon !!! *
> Check up the TOs again ...or may be go through its Practical RCI (Radar coverge indicator) , cuz i had the honor to go through it once



Oh yeah. Not to mention, it cant be used in wartime. Its very good though for peacetime work. The first things to be blown in wartime would be aerostats. I believe they would move them inland incase of hostilities.


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## MaXimMaRz

mean_bird said:


> You are stating something...doesn't have logic or reference , you are not willing to prove it...that's not the way to argue for something.
> 
> If you have any reference or proof for your claim, please enlighten us and add to our knowledge. Merely stating so is not enough.



first of all sorry if i offened you. All want to tell you is that when a product comes into market they claim high ranges. Their standards of detection are not of much use in war. For war u measure it up to the worst case senario. 

as far as the source is concered you know i cant bring u theoratical analysis of radar under trail, from any airforce, but thats how they do it. U dont have follow the manufaturers they just wanna sell there product. No one is pushing u to agree. U calculate it with 5m sq. RCS


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## kokkaborra

what about the pak and ukrain deal of awacs.are thay providing the latest one or an old version of the awacs.


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## Zob

kokkaburaa we r not getting any AWACS from Ukraine...my friend i think u r confusing urself with the AIR TO AIR refuellers...and as for the ereiye that we are getting from Sweden well the first one is ready and is undergoing trials and will be avalabe in the last quarter of 2009. as for ereiye not being able to look inside the indian airspace for more than 250 kms....well dear i think the PHALCON also has a detection range of 350kms....and if so even the phalcon is not going to be flying in an area less than 100kms away from the border...hence the phalcon and the ereiye both are able to track enemy movements for a range of 250 kms within the enemy airspace....

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## hj786

malaymishra123 said:


> The AEW&C would not be flying any closer than 100kms(and thats the minimum limit) close to the border.


So Erieye can see 350km into India, it just depends how close to the border PAF is willing to fly it - something none of us can speculate on, although I do agree it probably will not be any closer than 100km.



malaymishra123 said:


> Where i got it is irrelevant. AESA's can be made to operate in different modes. Regular search is when the radar is searching the maximum degrees of search possible. However, when the operators get specific info about a threat in a particular sector, the aesa can be redirected to search only in that sector. All the T/r align their beams along that sector thus giving a greater range in that particular sector. That is extended, sector specific search. Which the Erieye would employ for fighter detection at 350kms at a 150degree angle broadside, both sides. Erieye has 360degree detection. However it doesnt mean that if you further reduce the searching angle, the detection goes further up.


You are claiming that Erieye has to sacrifice situational awareness to monitor out to 350km, yet you show no proof of this. How is where you got this info irrelevant? Not all AESA radars are the same, Erieye is a very capable system and they certainly will not allow the public to know its full capabilities. Why don't you show me where your info is from?
Performance of phased array radars generally reduces when the beam is angled further away from 90 degrees. If 350km range is along a sector of angle 150 degrees, why isn't it reasonable to assume that range may well be slightly improved in the area of the sector whose angle is much smaller than 150 degrees?


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## spurdozer

Guys, Any one who knows the technical specifications of Chinese KJ-200 AWACS which Paksitan is going to acquire? Tell me!! Thanks


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## Contrarian

hj786 said:


> So Erieye can see 350km into India, it just depends how close to the border PAF is willing to fly it - something none of us can speculate on, although I do agree it probably will not be any closer than 100km.


Atleast we agree on something. 



> You are claiming that Erieye has to sacrifice situational awareness to monitor out to 350km, yet you show no proof of this. How is where you got this info irrelevant? Not all AESA radars are the same, Erieye is a very capable system and they certainly will not allow the public to know its full capabilities. Why don't you show me where your info is from?
> Performance of phased array radars generally reduces when the beam is angled further away from 90 degrees. If 350km range is along a sector of angle 150 degrees, why isn't it reasonable to assume that range may well be slightly improved in the area of the sector whose angle is much smaller than 150 degrees?


I have used the same sources presented to me on this forum for the range. Erieye is a good and capable system, it doesnt imply it has to have very long range. You are also free to look up and read up on AESA study and extended beam search employed by AESA's-specifically in AWACS like Wedgetail.

Not being able to look _very_ deep in India does not imply it is not good. It serves the purpose PAF needs it for. PAF would be the defensive force, and for that purpose Erieye is a beautiful system, highly jam resistant among other qualities.


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## hj786

malaymishra123 said:


> You are also free to look up and read up on AESA study and extended beam search employed by AESA's-specifically in AWACS like Wedgetail.


I would appreciate it if you could give me a link, I couldn't find anything about max. range being reached in an "extended beam search" mode, that means focusing the beam in a certain direction and ignoring the rest of the sector. Don't AESA radars move their beams around to scan the area instantaneously, this being one of their main advantages?



spurdozer said:


> Guys, Any one who knows the technical specifications of Chinese KJ-200 AWACS which Paksitan is going to acquire? Tell me!! Thanks


I don't know anything other than it will probably not be as good as Erieye in certain roles, otherwise PAF would not have bought 4 Saab 2000 Erieye. Anybody have more info?

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## MaXimMaRz

*For those who are arguing over erieye ranges*

Leave aside the actual ranges, trust me it can guide a strike into india and recover it back without exposing itself to a potential threat.

secondly those of you who think that its scan capability reduce in terms of azimuth or range when it scans a perticular sector ....stop thinking that.

Active phased arrray radars use phase shiffters in there trasmitter module . a phase shift in the EM wave changes its propagation direction thus you dont have to rotate your antenna and the job is done. its more like a torch inyour hand wiht which you scan a area. the diffrence is its is done so fast that with a blink of an eye the whole dame sector is scanned. 

As far as a specific sector scanning is concerned , it means you repeatedly rotate your torch on that particular sector, again its done so fast thanks to the speed of EM waves , you never feel any diffence in the ranges....

so no ranges reduce , and offcourse erieye has its limitations, but since it is good at the task we want to assign to it so its the best choice for us. !

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## hj786

Thanks maximarz, that is what I wanted to say but I did not have enough understanding to put it into words properly.


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## Zob

hey ok now i am confused what are the ranges of the PHALCON cuz when ask any indian the only answer i get is that it is the most advanced system out there!!!

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## hj786

Zob said:


> hey ok now i am confused what are the ranges of the PHALCON cuz when ask any indian the only answer i get is that it is the most advanced system out there!!!



Please start a new thread bro, lets not ruin the Pakistani AEW/C thread with an argument!


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## MaXimMaRz

hj786 said:


> Please start a new thread bro, lets not ruin the Pakistani AEW/C thread with an argument!



*yeah.....can there be an invite only or permission only thread ?*


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## zombie:-)

MaXimMaRz said:


> *yeah.....can there be an invite only or permission only thread ?*



this thread is seriously messed up i vote for starting a new thread 

if you want a invite only thread please start it on an invite only forum or else this forum will lose its credibility

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## zombie:-)

double post sorry ..


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## spurdozer

Yeah this post is seriously messed up. I also vote for starting a new thread. HAHA ZOB you can't be more correct.  Nearly every Indian which I have asked about Phalcon specs says it is the most advanced and that's it.


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## Amanpuneet Singh

Phalcon uses the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), an active phased array radar. This radar consists of an array transmit/receive (T/R) modules that allow a beam to be electronically steered, making a physically rotating rotodome unnecessary. AESA radars have very short to instantaneous scanning rates, which makes them difficult to detect.

Phalcon radars can be mounted on the an aircraft's fuselage or on the top inside a small dome. Either position gives the radar 360 degree coverage. This allows it to track high maneuvering targets and low flying objects from hundreds of kilometers away, under all weather conditions, in both day and night.its range vary from 300-450 km depending upon customer.iIndia got 450 km one.
below link will give u more guidance.
Phalcon


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## Keysersoze

Amanpuneet Singh said:


> Phalcon uses the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), an active phased array radar. This radar consists of an array transmit/receive (T/R) modules that allow a beam to be electronically steered, making a physically rotating rotodome unnecessary. AESA radars have very short to instantaneous scanning rates, which makes them difficult to detect.
> 
> Phalcon radars can be mounted on the an aircraft's fuselage or on the top inside a small dome. Either position gives the radar 360 degree coverage. This allows it to track high maneuvering targets and low flying objects from hundreds of kilometers away, under all weather conditions, in both day and night.its range vary from 300-450 km depending upon customer.iIndia got 450 km one.
> below link will give u more guidance.
> Phalcon



The figures quoted are moot anyway as they do not give true ranges and usually don't account for factors such as electronic clutter.
Your claim of india getting a 450km model is ludicrous as this the first time anyone has suggested this.


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## Amanpuneet Singh

Keysersoze said:


> The figures quoted are moot anyway as they do not give true ranges and usually don't account for factors such as electronic clutter.
> Your claim of india getting a 450km model is ludicrous as this the first time anyone has suggested this.


i have provided u the exact figures and i am not saying India got best coz new variant used by Israel called Eitam have range of 650 km.


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## Zob

india has INTER CONTINENTAL AWACS NOW.....ranges of 650kms damn!!!! ok listen guys i think this forum specially these threads are beomcing a stuid idiotic penis measuring contest and i think i am also a part of the whole mess so i am sorry... i won't get involved in ur stupid dick contests ...

i just want to know what are the major diffrences betwen 737-700 Airborne Early Warning & Control E7A, Multi-role Electronically Scanned Array RADAR Antenna (737-700 AEW&C MESA RADAR Antenna). and our EREIYE....


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## Amanpuneet Singh

The Erieye system, radar provides 360 degree coverage and has an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350 km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment &#8212; in heavy radar clutter and at low target altitudes. In addition to this, the radar is also capable of identifying friends or foes, and has a sea surveillance mode.

The Erieye system has full interoperability with NATO air defence command and control systems.

This what u guys are getting.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/emb/


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## PAFAce

Amanpuneet Singh said:


> Phalcon uses the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), an active phased array radar. This radar consists of an array transmit/receive (T/R) modules that allow a beam to be electronically steered, making a physically rotating rotodome unnecessary. AESA radars have very short to instantaneous scanning rates, which makes them difficult to detect.



You are right and the description is correct. However, this does not make the system the "most advanced" as some have claimed because _all_ AESA radars work the same basic way and there are many AESA radars out there.


> Phalcon radars can be mounted on the an aircraft's fuselage or on the top inside a small dome. Either position gives the radar 360 degree coverage. This allows it to track high maneuvering targets and low flying objects from hundreds of kilometers away, under all weather conditions, in both day and night.its range vary from 300-450 km depending upon customer.iIndia got 450 km one.



I'm sure you're right about this as well, except the ranges. Theoretical/ideal ranges differ from actual/tested ranges just like the horsepower listed in the car's manual is not what the car actually produces. Marketing guys always over-quote performance figures, and we engineers hate them for it, for obvious reasons. In any case, again, this does not make the system the "most advanced" out there as some have claimed.

What one could mean by "most advanced" is that it provides all you can ask for in modern AEWACS. I am sure the Phalcon does this because India can afford to buy the best possible platform. It'll be an interesting contest to see the Erieye and Phalcon in contest once they are inducted.


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## MaXimMaRz

Amanpuneet Singh said:


> Phalcon uses the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), an active phased array radar. This radar consists of an array transmit/receive (T/R) modules that allow a beam to be electronically steered, making a physically rotating rotodome unnecessary. AESA radars have very short to instantaneous scanning rates, which makes them difficult to detect.
> 
> Phalcon radars can be mounted on the an aircraft's fuselage or on the top inside a small dome. Either position gives the radar 360 degree coverage. This allows it to track high maneuvering targets and low flying objects from hundreds of kilometers away, under all weather conditions, in both day and night.its range vary from 300-450 km depending upon customer.iIndia got 450 km one.
> below link will give u more guidance.
> Phalcon




Its time this whole fourm gets over the ACTIVE PHASED ARRAY crush, Look Buddy Right now The Whole world is producing these things. 

And one more thing , your radar will be on the cheeks of the aircraft under its skin and nose dome....check again , only nose wont give you coverage. 

Its practical ranges are alot lesser then the theoratical ranges. Check it up if you have some one on the inside


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## Keysersoze

Amanpuneet Singh said:


> i have provided u the exact figures and i am not saying India got best coz new variant used by Israel called Eitam have range of 650 km.



No you haven't provided any figures or facts at all .....listen we have been discussing this for a long time on this forum and seen all the web pages you have quoted....I suggest you look at what the distance to the horizon would be at the maximum altitude for the Il-76 (13000 metres)....Unless the radar is powerful enough to look through solid rock then the distance you are quoting is useless.


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## Keysersoze

MaXimMaRz said:


> Its time this whole fourm gets over the ACTIVE PHASED ARRAY crush, Look Buddy Right now The Whole world is producing these things.
> 
> And one more thing , your radar will be on the cheeks of the aircraft under its skin and nose dome....check again , only nose wont give you coverage.
> 
> Its practical ranges are alot lesser then the theoratical ranges. Check it up if you have some one on the inside



Just a quick point. The Indian awacs does not have the same configuration as the Chilean one. It's radr will be based in a radome which would allow 360 degree coverge.


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## MaXimMaRz

Keysersoze said:


> Just a quick point. The Indian awacs does not have the same configuration as the Chilean one. It's radar will be based in a radome which would allow 360 degree converge.



1. Where would it be placed?


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## Keysersoze

MaXimMaRz said:


> 1. Where would it be placed?



I believe it would be three triangle shaped modules in the radome.


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## MaXimMaRz

Keysersoze said:


> I believe it would be three triangle shaped modules in the radome.



No i am intrested in knowing the position at which the radome yoU are placing ....?

DO yoU mean to say its gonna be like the E-3??


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## Keysersoze

MaXimMaRz said:


> No i am intrested in knowing the position at which the radome yoU are placing ....?
> 
> DO yoU mean to say its gonna be like the E-3??



yes dude the phalcon images have been around for along time now.


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## MaXimMaRz

Keysersoze said:


> No you haven't provided any figures or facts at all .....listen we have been discussing this for a long time on this forum and seen all the web pages you have quoted....*I suggest you look at what the distance to the horizon would be at the maximum altitude for the Il-76 (13000 metres)....Unless the radar is powerful enough to look through solid rock then the distance you are quoting is useless*.



1. visUal horizon from 13,000 meter is 220 NM and Radar horizon is 254 NM.
I have mentioned earlier also , Once it comes to Airborne electronic scanning horizon isnt a limitation.

2. and the range fUrther increases as the target aircraft increases its height.

2. the detection range in case of airborne radar is sUbject to its reciver sensitivity , clUtter control threshold , peak power of the radar, the freqUency it Uses. and many other variables

3. The main aim behind the development of a airborne radar was to cater for screening and radar horizon limitations 

4. If you keep your radars polarity horizontal , it will give you a better range (keeping the rest constant)

5. There are certain form of EM waves that can curve with the curvature of earth to some extent

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## Hasnain2009




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## MaXimMaRz

Keysersoze said:


> yes dude the phalcon images have been around for along time now.



In that case it will have a larger blind area under it , and the AC will have a reduced speed....

Why would they do that....anyways i still opt for skin antennas


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## zombie:-)

MaXimMaRz said:


> In that case it will have a larger blind area under it , and the AC will have a reduced speed....
> 
> Why would they do that....anyways i still opt for skin antennas



actually these are designed to have a flexible way to have an awacs 

india had embaerer business jets for VIP transportation they sent it for upgrades to be converted into awacs so it is not designed to be an awacs from the start hence this configuration skin antennas are built on aircraft built specifically for that purpose .....

this is what i think any views


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## Munir

zombie:-) said:


> actually these are designed to have a flexible way to have an awacs
> 
> india had embaerer business jets for VIP transportation they sent it for upgrades to be converted into awacs so it is not designed to be an awacs from the start hence this configuration skin antennas are built on aircraft built specifically for that purpose .....
> 
> this is what i think any views



The Saab2000 needs extensive changes (structural) to adapt Erieye... So I think no plane is designed to handle weight, electronics wash or obstruction of waves... They need certainly a lot more electric power to generate enough power!

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## Keysersoze

MaXimMaRz said:


> 1. visUal horizon from 13,000 meter is 220 NM and Radar horizon is 254 NM.
> I have mentioned earlier also , Once it comes to Airborne electronic scanning horizon isnt a limitation.
> 
> 2. and the range fUrther increases as the target aircraft increases its height.
> 
> 2. the detection range in case of airborne radar is sUbject to its reciver sensitivity , clUtter control threshold , peak power of the radar, the freqUency it Uses. and many other variables
> 
> 3. The main aim behind the development of a airborne radar was to cater for screening and radar horizon limitations
> 
> 4. If you keep your radars polarity horizontal , it will give you a better range (keeping the rest constant)
> 
> 5. There are certain form of EM waves that can curve with the curvature of earth to some extent



Sorry I tried posting earlier but had a few probs with my comp.....

1)The whole point of of AWACS is to overcome the OTH problem.......If it were easily overcome then The US would have already found and used it. The height incidentally is the maximum operational height of the il-76 ( 13000 metres) However it does have its own limitations in respect to the horizon. The longer ranges would only be of use at medium to high altitudes. A low flying aircraft would be able to avoid it.

2)Yes you have stated the obvious here

3) yes but AWACS have the same limitations with horizons as well. It just allows better horizons than ground based radar.

4)not understanding your point here.....

5)Yes there are...but the OTH radars are a lot bigger than anything that fits on a aircraft.

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## MaXimMaRz

Keysersoze said:


> Sorry I tried posting earlier but had a few probs with my comp.....
> 
> 1)The whole point of of AWACS is to overcome the OTH problem.......If it were easily overcome then The US would have already found and used it. The height incidentally is the maximum operational height of the il-76 ( 13000 metres) However it does have its own limitations in respect to the horizon. The longer ranges would only be of use at medium to high altitudes. A low flying aircraft would be able to avoid it.
> 
> 2)Yes you have stated the obvious here
> 
> 3) yes but *AWACS have the same limitations with horizons as well*. It just allows better horizons than ground based radar.
> 
> 4)not understanding your point here.....
> 
> 5)Yes there are...but the OTH radars are a lot bigger than anything that fits on a aircraft.



1. I dont know what you wanna say ... I please take a specific line, or tell me some case study....your statment is too wide

3. Please See the bold part of your statment at tell me what exactly you wanna say

4. The electric vector of a EM wave ( if you inline them all , then the vectorial dirction of it defines its polarity. 

5. OHT have Very less range and Azimuth resolution, They cannot and are not used for tactical purposes, pluse you are right , there are ship borne OHT radars, but no airborne ones cuz the Tx and Rx are of miles 
( i think we are going round and round on this thread, cuz my first threat was about the same stuff .....no progress till now )

*...Once you talk about the horizons, dont take in account the weather effects or enviormental effects , they will always be there nomatter where we go, we need to focus on the effects due to change in height of the radar lobe or beam, and Phalcon practical ranges are 200 NM , that too on a tangential path fighter*


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## Contrarian

MaXimMaRz said:


> In that case it will have a larger blind area under it , and the AC will have a reduced speed....
> 
> Why would they do that....anyways i still opt for skin antennas



The previous generation Phalcons had the skin antenna's in conjunction with nose mounted ones.

The Il-76 being used for Phalcon has structural modifications(apart from the ones to house the radar), as well as new engines.


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## Zob

can the indian IL78 take the structural fatigue of the new engines as well as the antenaa and all....just a thought


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## zombie:-)

Zob said:


> can the indian IL78 take the structural fatigue of the new engines as well as the antenaa and all....just a thought



sir its funny but i think there will be nothing exclusively indian in the strucure its structurally same as the russian A-50 not il-78 if you are referring to the AEW&C please lets call it A-50I as it is a used platform of the ruaf FROM 1984 there would not be much of a problem ...


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## circuitbaba

Max endurance for the Erieye AC is 9.5 hours...lets make it 8 for normal scenario
in one week there are 168 hours
divide that with the number of endurance hours (8) ..then we get 21 missions
divide missions with AC(5)
this translates that each Erieye will have to fly 4 times evry week

Depending they fly for which command..I belive it will be Central air command or atleast the upperhalf of Pakistani air space,,Maybe Southern I am not sure


As far as i have read we are getting 6 ZDK-03...with assumed Air precence of 6-7 hours for platforms like Y-12.....If I use the same formaula each one these ZDK-03will have to fly 4 missions every week....Thats is not a big load on any AC

PAF has Chosen wisely


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## MaXimMaRz

circuitbaba said:


> Max endurance for the Erieye AC is 9.5 hours...lets make it 8 for normal scenario
> in one week there are 168 hours
> divide that with the number of endurance hours (8) ..then we get 21 missions
> divide missions with AC(5)
> this translates that each Erieye will have to fly 4 times evry week
> 
> Depending they fly for which command..I belive it will be Central air command or atleast the upperhalf of Pakistani air space,,Maybe Southern I am not sure
> 
> 
> As far as i have read we are getting 6 ZDK-03...with assumed Air precence of 6-7 hours for platforms like Y-12.....If I use the same formaula each one these ZDK-03will have to fly 4 missions every week....Thats is not a big load on any AC
> 
> PAF has Chosen wisely



Exucse me sir,
Dont we have to count the maintanance days and MEAN TIME BETWEEN FAILure?

and why do u want to waste there precious flying hours just like that? 

and who told u they can fly for 8 hours?


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## qsaark

circuitbaba said:


> Max endurance for the Erieye AC is 9.5 hours...lets make it 8 for normal scenario.


Saab 2000 has a long range cruising speed of 594km/h. At this speed, Sabb 2000 has an estimated range of 2868km. So the cruising time will be ~4.8 hour.


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## Keysersoze

zombie:-) said:


> sir its funny but i think there will be nothing exclusively indian in the strucure its structurally same as the russian A-50 not il-78 if you are referring to the AEW&C please lets call it A-50I as it is a used platform of the ruaf FROM 1984 there would not be much of a problem ...



Actually there were a few problems with the platform as its aerodynamics are affected by the radome. A2A refueling can cause problems with this platform......


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## circuitbaba

here is the proof for its 8 hours endurance max 9 hours

Pakistan AEW&C/AWACS, Refueler, etc, Discussion - Page 2 - PakDef Forums

See post no 38 MArz.....this report of the specified dimensions has been on the net for a long time....pakdef is pretty authentic check it out

now abot mean overhall.....I am taking about war situation where 24 AEW is a must.... otherwise the enmey will wait for the precise time when there is no AEw cover.....4 days mean 32 hours for an AC per week that leaves 136 hours of the week...
Ab please yeh mat kehna ke the technician wont work at night ...in war atleast some are working all the time in shifts

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## zombie:-)

Keysersoze said:


> Actually there were a few problems with the platform as its aerodynamics are affected by the radome. A2A refueling can cause problems with this platform......



yes it has problems with IFR but whats it gotta do with structural fatigue ...and i think that IFR probe on the A-50I is nothing but a display piece ..i havent seen an AWACS plane being refueled in flight


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## SEAL

Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C Features
Applications:
 AEW&C
 National security missions
 Border control
 Airborne C2 platform
 Disaster management co-ordination
 Major event security
 Emergency Air Traffic Control (ATC)



Radar System performance:
 Active Phased Array Pulse Doppler multi-mode radar
 450 km range and above 20 km (65,000 ft) altitude coverage
 Effective surveillance area of 500,000 sq km
 Capable of combined air and sea surveillance
 Automatic tracking of priority air targets
 Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system


Saab - Technology for a Changing World - Products A-Z


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## Keysersoze

Thanks for posting the same data AGAIN...


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## circuitbaba

Mod bhai is angry on the repitation of information

people should look b4 they post stuff


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## qsaark

circuitbaba said:


> here is the proof for its 8 hours endurance max 9 hours


*You are right dude*. My calculations were based on Saab 2000 airliner. Thank you for enlightening me.

I am attaching the scans of the official brochure of Saab 2000 AEW & C for those who are interested.

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## qsaark

Scans of the official brochure of Saab 2000 AEW & C 
Page 6-8.

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## Zob

Nikhil lease read all the pages before u ask questions that have been answered before PLEASE!!!! and this line by INDIANS ticks me of now PHALCON THE BEST IN THE WORLD.....


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## was

nikhil said:


> sh*t all these technichal words........
> 
> are all of u engineers?
> 
> 
> i read as much as i could but some things i still not get,
> pak is geting awacs from swede? when? how many? is it comparable to india;s phalcon?(supposed to be the best).
> 
> After AWACS came to india I read in INDIAN EXPRESS that it can track and map a p@ki plane right from its taking off to landing while flying in amritsar in india! is that true?
> 
> also why do awacs have wierd shape?
> 
> THANX



WTF is p@aki????? tell me you bhenghee!!!!

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## Super Falcon

i still bellieve that Enriye is better for paf but paf has to think about new awacs from china not AEW&C


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## Contrarian

was said:


> WTF is p@aki????? tell me you bhenghee!!!!



How can you get so easily provoked


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## Hasnain2009

After 2020!!


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## MaXimMaRz

mughaljee said:


> Ok , tell me, Chines awacs will be better then USA ?



No, i dont think so, but a bird in had is better then thwo in the bushes , or make it like small torch in hand is better then a bigger one in the shop if a crock sales man..


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## MastanKhan

mughaljee said:


> Ok , tell me, Chines awacs will be better then USA ?




Hi,

At least not in my lifetime---but then this is not how you compete with the opponent ( there equipment is better than ours---we will never be able to match them ) wars are not fought on those grounds. 

Once the minimal information threshold is crossed over, then the rest is down to managing your assets---strike aircraft, air superiority fighter interceptors, seas going assets, ground based assets---now if your air force assets are also way below par in quality than the adversary---then you have a serious problem. 

Now even if there is numerical superiority----would not reflect to " there is strength in numbers " analogy---. Once the cream of the crop of the seasoned pilots is taken out by the superior enemy in the first week of the conflict---the rest is like a walk in the park.

Chinese awacs will do the job right if the rest of the assets follow through---now think about it---what difference would it make---if the chinese awac gave you the information---but then none of your aircraft had the ability to confront the threat---this is the most important part of the equation.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

AWACS is merely a force multiplier......in the end it goes down to the capabilities of the aircraft, the performance of the pilot, and the ability to counter counter-measures 

as our doctrine entails a potent PAF with defensive capabilties (as well as offensive defence) i would say we are on the right track. 

It truly amazes people how despite limited resources we have managed to maintain a potent fleet, with many upcoming aircrafts to be inducted.


We have MoU with Republic of Turkey in armed UAVs production. I hope for many good things to materialize in this regard. We do plan to induct UAV squadron soon as well, and this will be invaluable asset.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Your aircraft should be able to take the war to the enemy on their turf. If your aircraft cannot do just that basic----the game is lost right from day one.

The nemey needs to be kept busy in their backyard most of the time---once they get into your enclave and we think that we can defend ourselves---well think again---we already lost the initiative when the enemy crossed into our skies.

The bottomline is that the paf will have to be an offensive fighting force all the time---the defncive mentality is a loser's mentality.

The aircraft should be able to get data from the awacs and act upon the information.

Air warfare is a totally differnt beast in its nature---one who takes the initiative and succeeds in it---gets the upper hand.

In the air combat between pakistan and india---everything will depend upon how many SU 30's, m2k's and jaguars the pak millitary can down in the first 3 days of the battle---the numbers of downed SU 30's will shape the outcome of the battle.


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## araz

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your aircraft should be able to take the war to the enemy on their turf. If your aircraft cannot do just that basic----the game is lost right from day one.
> 
> The nemey needs to be kept busy in their backyard most of the time---once they get into your enclave and we think that we can defend ourselves---well think again---we already lost the initiative when the enemy crossed into our skies.
> 
> The bottomline is that the paf will have to be an offensive fighting force all the time---the defncive mentality is a loser's mentality.
> 
> The aircraft should be able to get data from the awacs and act upon the information.
> 
> Air warfare is a totally differnt beast in its nature---one who takes the initiative and succeeds in it---gets the upper hand.
> 
> In the air combat between pakistan and india---everything will depend upon how many SU 30's, m2k's and jaguars the pak millitary can down in the first 3 days of the battle---the numbers of downed SU 30's will shape the outcome of the battle.



mastan Khan.
My friend i think your assumptions are not realistic. PAF has always been and with regards to India always will remain a defensive force. As i have understood from sifting the dust on many fora over the yrs, in order to be an offensive force you need to have an AF that is larger and better equipped than the enemy. You will always loose more aircrafts to the enemy playing the offensive role. we just do not have the numbers to be doing that. The second thing is if you are going to use your aircrafts in the nemy backyard, why bother with cruise missiles and other missiles? At no time in all the wars in the subcontinent have PAF operated their aircrafts beyond 200miles into enemy airspace.With our current strength and equipment, this is going to remain the case. 
i have also heard your argument about how the AF pilots are trained and fed to fight for their country and they should do so. the answer is , they will do so if you give them a realistic target, but not a suicide mission. I think we need to have a reality check before we make unrealistic expectations of our airmen.
WaSalam
Araz


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## spurdozer

When our first ZDK 03 will arrive?


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## MastanKhan

Araz,

Indeed we all need to have a reality check---possibly sanity check would be the right word for the majority of the members here---when one pitches a jf 17---a plane not even in service yet---against a top notch plane the SU 30---an extremely seasoned platform and weapons system---I guess under the circumstance, I need some moments of hallucination as well---now don't everyone desreve to have their own personal pipe's dream!!! So what is wrong if I do want to have mine over here.


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## araz

MastanKhan said:


> Araz,
> 
> Indeed we all need to have a reality check---possibly sanity check would be the right word for the majority of the members here---when one pitches a jf 17---a plane not even in service yet---against a top notch plane the SU 30---an extremely seasoned platform and weapons system---I guess under the circumstance, I need some moments of hallucination as well---now don't everyone desreve to have their own personal pipe's dream!!! So what is wrong if I do want to have mine over here.



Enjoy your self my friend and have a happy day, and a million more to come
Araz

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## qsaark

Some pics of KJ 2000

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## qsaark

One more picture of KJ-2000 and others of KJ-200

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## qsaark

Some more pictures of KJ-2000. Hopefully most are unseen.

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## hj786

Thanks for posting those pics Qsaark.

I haven't seen the pictures of the blue and white KJ-200 before, the one with the 4 blade propellers and "Y-8F200" written on it. Could this one be the KJ-200 prototype that crashed? It has 4 blade propellers while the other pics have more modern-looking 6 blade propellers, which I think are supposed to reduce noise levels. It does not seem to have any EW receivers on the tip of the wings or tail either, the other 6-blade propeller KJ-200s do. It also has a glass nose, unlike the 6-blade KJ-200s that have a solid nose with a white fairing sticking out - could this fairing be for EW equipment or a small radar antennae to give radar coverage over the front of the aeroplane?

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## TOPGUN

Thx guys for the great pic's man i can't wait to see them in our colors inshallah!


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## Shamrock

I think AWACS is necessary,coz just a few days back 2 helis fro Afghanisatn entered our airspace.God knows wat they had in mind!!!


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## mughaljee

Brothers, 
Are we trying to make this thing, or buying this ?


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## Arsalan

when will we be gettin them ??

what about the ERIEYE!

what are we currently operating for the AWACS role!


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## Super Falcon

Mastan khan i fully agree with you and by your words paf has to buy a weapon who not only defend but also attack which we lack yes F 16 is ok but JF 17 i have doubts can it survive advanced indian SAMS and SU 30,F16 advanced etc


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## Arsalan

what system are we currently operating as the AWACS, do we have any, i have heared on a training plane in last quater of 2008 i suppose and no news since then.

what is the current status!


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## TOPGUN

Any pic's of the A-50 aircraft guys??


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## Owais

TOPGUN said:


> Any pic's of the A-50 aircraft guys??


here you go

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## blain2

This is a thread for Pakistan's AEW plans. Please post your articles relating to IAF's acquisitions in the appropriate thread. Next time around the posts will be deleted if found in the wrong thread. You can discuss aspects of the Indian acquisitions here but do not post articles etc. as it will very easily derail this thread. Please delete and post it in the appropriate thread.

Thank you

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## Arsalan

*can some one tell us about*
what system are we currently operating as the AWACS, do we have any, i have heared on a training SAAB plane in last quater of 2008 i suppose and no news since then.

what is the current status!


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## a1b2c145

hj786 said:


> Thanks for posting those pics Qsaark.
> 
> I haven't seen the pictures of the blue and white KJ-200 before, the one with the 4 blade propellers and "Y-8F200" written on it. Could this one be the KJ-200 prototype that crashed? It has 4 blade propellers while the other pics have more modern-looking 6 blade propellers, which I think are supposed to reduce noise levels. It does not seem to have any EW receivers on the tip of the wings or tail either, the other 6-blade propeller KJ-200s do. It also has a glass nose, unlike the 6-blade KJ-200s that have a solid nose with a white fairing sticking out - could this fairing be for EW equipment or a small radar antennae to give radar coverage over the front of the aeroplane?





1/ KJ-200 is a special plane based on Y8 and has a dish-shapped antenna,but the plane with a balance beam on fuselage is not KJ-200, yes , i am sure!!!
2/ the blue and white plane in the middle above was still being made that time, finished product is the last picture which has many EW receivers


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> *can some one tell us about*
> what system are we currently operating as the AWACS, do we have any, i have heared on a training SAAB plane in last quater of 2008 i suppose and no news since then.
> 
> what is the current status!



We do not have any AWACS or AEW&C at the moment. There is a SAAB training one that is being used to train the PAF crew. Deliveries are to begin from mid of this _year_(IIRC).

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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> We do not have any AWACS or AEW&C at the moment. There is a SAAB training one that is being used to train the PAF crew. Deliveries are to begin from mid of this this (IIRC).



thanks bro!


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## ihero06

I saw this news in Asian Defence Blog. If this is real, then it is bad for PAF. The accusation came from ex-PAF chief.

ASIAN DEFENCE: Musharraf ruin PAF&#8217;s $1.2 billion Saab Surveillance System deal for possible kickbacks


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## Arsalan

ihero06 said:


> I saw this news in Asian Defence Blog. If this is real, then it is bad for PAF. The accusation came from ex-PAF chief.
> 
> ASIAN DEFENCE: Musharraf ruin PAFs $1.2 billion Saab Surveillance System deal for possible kickbacks



this is all rubbish, it have been disscussed on another thread and the issue is cleared there, i refer you tovisit that thread.

sie these are all base less arguments thatthis reportes is trying to put up to get fame, nothing to worry about!


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## mean_bird

Someone posted this on youtube and labeled it as PAF Erieye. I can't make the flag because it ain't a hi-def video.

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## Munir

It is the first version doing trials in Sweden still with non PAF markings... Will be ready in 2 months and delivered.


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## Arsalan

nice to know tis, so we will very soon be having another punch in our arsenal!

what about the AWACS from china, when exactly they will be comming, any info on it?


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> nice to know tis, so we will very soon be having another punch in our arsenal!
> 
> what about the AWACS from china, when exactly they will be comming, any info on it?



Somewhere around 2010-11 from what I have read. Pakistan still wants some improvement on the platform.


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## Zob

fly baby fly over the rainbow so high...


glad to see that atleast we are this close to having it....


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## ahussains

i think this year we get it ? can some one clear this ?


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## Imran Khan

as sir munir inform us. it will be in pakistan within 2 or 3 months.


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> Somewhere around 2010-11 from what I have read. Pakistan still wants some improvement on the platform.



thats good, with the SAAB systems in induction phase we wont be in a hurry to get the chines one so let them improve these!
i hope that AWACS systems will add great power to our forces!

regards


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## Arsalan

do our JF17 have the ability ti be data linked with these systems,

if so it will atleast cancle out one point of radar where Su30 have an edge over JF 17( though there are many other)

any info?

regards!


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## BaburCM

Pakistan's aircraft has five on-board operator stations, versus three on modified EMB-145s and Sweden's two upgraded Saab 340s, a service ceiling of over 30,000ft (9,150m) and a mission endurance approaching 10h. The type also features enhanced engines, new generators, additional cooling for on-board mission equipment and a Saab HES-21 electronic warfare suite comprising laser, radar and missile approach warners and countermeasures dispensers.

The aircraft's fuselage has been strengthened to carry the Erieye radar, while its vertical tail has been extended to compensate for the payload, which provides 150e_SDgr coverage to each side of its conformal array. The Saab 2000's outer wing has also been strengthened to accommodate EW and signals intelligence sensors, and for the possible carriage of a towed radar decoy.

Saab says the use of new-generation radar transmit/receive modules with 60&#37; higher output have increased the AEW range of the Erieye design, which can also now detect hovering helicopters and track small naval targets to a range of 350km (190nm).

The global fleet of Saab 2000s now totals 58 airframes. Around 20 of these are owned by the Swedish manufacturer's aircraft leasing unit, which says the type has a projected operating life of at least 75,000 flight hours. "We have sufficient aircraft for a lot of different customers," says Andersson, adding: "Given typical utilisation, they are due to operate for the next 35 to 40 years."

Source: Saab scans AEW market for new Erieye buyers

Some handy info if it hasn't been posted before.

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## wild peace

Sir i am bit confused that indian aquire the ceiling top 60,000 with phelcons but pakistan has only 30,000, and one more important question about saab AEW&Cs system is that it is week from front & behind.

regards


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## Keysersoze

wild peace said:


> Sir i am bit confused that indian aquire the ceiling top 60,000 with phelcons but pakistan has only 30,000, and one more important question about saab AEW&Cs system is that it is week from front & behind.
> 
> regards



I suggest reading ......The pages of this thread are a good place to start.


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## TOPGUN

Wow no info on our awac's nor or air refueliers ? i hope we hear some good news soon!


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## Munir

PAF is not amused if things leak out... Example... Erieye witout the radar was transferred to PAF in september... I have seen couple of pics of it some months ago yet AFM published it this month... So we are 8 months behind what happened. The Ericson version was planned in june 2009.

Knowing that India got its AWACS may 18th we can expect that PAF will not wait much longer then june. There are no problems with the testing sofar.


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## Arsalan

wild peace said:


> Sir i am bit confused that indian aquire the ceiling top 60,000 with phelcons but pakistan has only 30,000, and one more important question about saab AEW&Cs system is that it is week from front & behind.
> 
> regards



well in terms of service celing the indian system do have an edge but for as for the PAF system being weak from front and behind, you are wrong!

this point have been disscussd earlier and i suggest you to go through this thread! i hope this will help you out!

regards!


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## mughaljee

All senior Members, 
last day i red news on bbc site, that, phelcons system reached india and they are very happy, 
now
plz satisfy my , what we are doing , what's our stragedy against "phelcons system" are we aware to meet this challenge ?

Briefly please.
always regards


----------



## Manticore

hi! i scrolled through the Pakistan AWACs/AEW&Cs Aircrafts thread.. but couldnt find a definative post which shows
1]the paf specific chanes in Erieye as compared to other countries.. suppose say brazil?.

2]In the newer posts on net, also the Erieye is called AEW&Cs.. .what was done to upgrade standard Erieye to make it become AEW&Cs from just AWACs..what upgrades were done?[was the seating arrangement increased in the front only?]

3]paf also has the same upgraded AEW&Cs

4]how much effect will Erieye ' AEW&Cs' have against phalcon?
thanks [i posted this post in question thread a week back.. but im waiting for a reply]


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## sohailbutt

mughaljee said:


> All senior Members,
> last day i red news on bbc site, that, phelcons system reached india and they are very happy,
> now
> plz satisfy my , what we are doing , what's our stragedy against "phelcons system" are we aware to meet this challenge ?
> 
> Briefly please.
> always regards



I am not a senior member, but i would suggest you to read this thread from the very first page, it will obviously clear all your questions.


----------



## holysaturn

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well in terms of service celing the indian system do have an edge but for as for the *PAF system being weak from front and behind, you are wrong!*
> 
> this point have been disscussd earlier and i suggest you to go through this thread! i hope this will help you out!
> 
> regards!



i think u will hav to reconsider that

*The Ericsson Erieye system uses an active phased array radar mounted in a two sided array geometry. The whole array is contained in a large beam shaped structure carried above the fuselage of a commuter twin airframe. The limitation of the two sided array is that it can only cover two 120 degree sectors abeam of the aircraft, leaving 60 degree blind sectors over the nose and tail of the aircraft, and reduced antenna performance from 45 degrees off the beam aspect. Another limitation stems from the use of an airframe too small to accommodate a comprehensive self contained command, control and communications system, and other sensors such as a capable ESM and track association system*

*The Israeli Phalcon is the first full scale application of phased array technology, using arrays along the fuselage and under the nose and tail. While providing full 360 degree coverage, the smaller size of the nose and tail arrays will limit angular resolution in the nose and tail sectors, thus degrading system performance in these areas. While cheaper than external pylon mounted radomes in terms of structural modifications, conformal arrays require suitable airframe geometry if they are to be used to full advantage.*

AEW&C - Phased Array Technology Parts 1 & 2


----------



## Lockheed F-16

I found this pretty old article:

Apparently concerned over Indian move to acquire Israeli Phalcons, Islamabad has reportedly decided to acquire Chinese missiles termed AWACS killers in case of US failure to sell AWACS to Pakistan. 

The FT-2000 surface-to-air missile (SAM), commonly known as the `AWACS killer, designed by Chinese experts are considered to be the most appropriate option if the U.S. refuses to provide the same kind of Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) to Pakistan being sold to India by Israel, The News said.

If the U.S. refuses to sell AWACS to Pakistan, then getting the FT-2000 from China would be in the interest of both states who share a common threat perception, it quoted a European defence expert as saying in Brussels.

Pakistan is also considering indigenous production of the truck-launched FT-2000 missile, the newspaper said.

Pakistan and China are equally concerned about the Phalcon deal and are of the view that the transfer of AWACS technology to India would challenge the delicate conventional military equilibrium in South Asia, disturbing the no-win situation which guarantees peace in the region, it added.

High-level consultations between Beijing and Islamabad are in progress as both Pakistan and China, through diplomatic channels, have conveyed to the international community that they would counter the Indian move of acquiring the Phalcon radar system, it quoted the expert as saying.

A statement last week by the Pakistani Air Chief, Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, that the nation would hear good news by June 30, 2004 on Pakistans counter to the Phalcon has been perceived as an indication of the growing cooperation between Pakistan and China on a counter measure.

India announced last month it was purchasing the Phalcon in a $1 billion tripartite deal with Israel and Russia, which will provide the IL-76 heavy aircraft on which the radar will be mounted.

China too was keen to purchase the Phalcon but the $250 million deal was called off last year in the face of stiff opposition from the U.S.


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## mean_bird

holysaturn said:


> i think u will hav to reconsider that
> 
> *The Ericsson Erieye system uses an active phased array radar mounted in a two sided array geometry. The whole array is contained in a large beam shaped structure carried above the fuselage of a commuter twin airframe. The limitation of the two sided array is that it can only cover two 120 degree sectors abeam of the aircraft, leaving 60 degree blind sectors over the nose and tail of the aircraft, and reduced antenna performance from 45 degrees off the beam aspect. Another limitation stems from the use of an airframe too small to accommodate a comprehensive self contained command, control and communications system, and other sensors such as a capable ESM and track association system*



Arsalan has suggested you go through this thread for a good reason. The above statement of your post is wrong. Erieye has 360° coverage and the proof has been posted in this thread time and again.

Please go through the thread or try reading the brochure of erieye on the saab website.


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## holysaturn

mean_bird said:


> Arsalan has suggested you go through this thread for a good reason. The above statement of your post is wrong. Erieye has 360° coverage and the proof has been posted in this thread time and again.
> 
> Please go through the thread or try reading the brochure of erieye on the saab website.



sorry cant find it please do help me with a link.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

holysaturn said:


> sorry cant find it please do help me with a link.



Thats because there are 40+ pages to this trhead and you have not bothered reading them, and instead just butt in halfassed.

Please show respect to the people posting on this thread and read through the comments, instead of being lazy and asking others to search throught the posts and find the links for you.

Reading through the thread is important since you won't end up repeating old arguments again and again, and will read through questions and views that you may not have considered.

Thanks.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## holysaturn

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Thats because there are 40+ pages to this trhead and you have not bothered reading them, and instead just butt in halfassed.
> 
> Please show respect to the people posting on this thread and read through the comments, instead of being lazy and asking others to search throught the posts and find the links for you.
> 
> Reading through the thread is important since you won't end up repeating old arguments again and again, and will read through questions and views that you may not have considered.
> 
> Thanks.



duh i dint need that nor did i expect that,if u have the link do kindly post.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

holysaturn said:


> duh i dint need that nor did i expect that,if u have the link do kindly post.



Oh you deserved it since you havn't bothered to read the thread.

Its quite annoying when people don't read the thread since they repeat the same question again and again, which is what you have done.

Read the thread and you'll find the answer to your question - end of discussion.


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## jawadqamar

Airforce-technology.com has finally treated the Saab 2000 AEW&C Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft as separate from S-100/Saab-340AEW&C and detailed it in separate entry still missed following parts



> Saab-340/ S-100 Erieye has an instrumental range of 450km (limited through software)and detection range of 350 km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment. From its standard operational altitude of 6000 metres (19,685 feet, or FL200) the radar has a maximum range of 450 km (279 miles). Against a fighter-sized target effective range is approximately 330 km (205 miles). Seaborne targets can be detected at 320 km (198 miles), *though this is a function of the aircraft&#8217;s cruising height. So Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft has standard operational altitude of 9144 metres so it will have greater range then Saab-340 AEW&C. * Based on typical use rates, the remaining life of the AEW&C is more than 35 years, with options for further re-lifing.
> 
> *Saab says the use of new-generation radar transmit/receive modules with 60&#37; higher output have increased the AEW range of the Erieye design, which can also now detect hovering helicopters and track small naval targets to a range of 350km (190nm).*
> 
> Virtually all of the radar components have been replaced since the Erieye was first fielded in 1996, and all of the computer systems are COTS-based for cost-effective and rapid upgrade. *Power output is around 20 percent greater than it was previously,* although power requirements, and thus cooling, for the mission system have decreased by 30 percent. *The effects of improvement can also be seen in a 53-percent reduction in system weight and 78-percent reduction in floor space. *At the same time, computing power has increased a hundredfold.



*Saab 2000 AEW&C Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft, Sweden*

The Saab 2000 AEW&C airborne early warning and control aircraft is a variant of the Saab 2000 regional transport turboprop aircraft equipped with the spine-mounted Saab Systems Erieye PS-890 side-looking reconnaissance radar.

The first customer for the Saab 2000 AEW&C, the Pakistan Fiza'ya (the Pakistan Air Force), placed the order on Saab, based in Stockholm, in June 2006. *The first of five aircraft was rolled out in April 2008 and is scheduled to enter service in 2009. *Thailand announced the selection of the Saab 2000 AEW&C in June 2007.

The aircraft, fully equipped for airborne early warning and control, can also be used for national security missions, border control, airborne command and control, disaster management coordination and for emergency air traffic control.

*
Saab 2000 construction*
Saab Surveillance Systems is the lead contractor for the Saab 2000 AEW&C programme. Saab Aerotech is responsible for the development and modification of the Saab 2000 regional aircraft to the AEW&C configuration. Six other Saab business units are also contracted for major elements of the programme.

The outer wing sections have been strengthened, as has the roof of the fuselage, to accommodate the weight of the Erieye antenna and its housing. The vertical tail area has been increased to provide improved stabilisation.

*Main cabin*
*The main cabin is fitted with five mission operator consoles on the starboard side.* The windows on the starboard side of the main cabin have been removed. The cabin is air-conditioned and fitted with an active noise cancellation system.

The aft section of the main cabin accommodates fuel tanks and mission equipment. *Two auxiliary fuel tanks are installed on the starboard side in the mid fuselage section immediately aft of the mission consoles.*

The *mission operator consoles perform: **system and sensor management; mission planning and simulation; track data processing; asset management and control; identification and allocation. The display systems incorporate digital maps and use high-resolution flat-panel colour displays and touch input display controls. The main cabin aft section also accommodates the electronic warfare equipment, the Erieye equipment and the Erieye power units.*

*Radar*
Saab Microwave Systems (formerly Ericsson) is the lead contractor for the Erieye surveillance radar. The Erieye radar is operational on a number of other aircraft including the Saab 340, Embraer R-99 and Embraer EMB-145. Erieye is an active phased array pulse Doppler radar operating in the 3.1GHz to 3.3GHz band. The radar is operational from three minutes after take-off and during climb and provides an effective surveillance area of 500,000km&#178;.

The Erieye radar has an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350km against a fighter aircraft sized target in dense hostile electronic warfare environments and at low target altitudes. *The system is capable of tracking multiple air and sea target over the horizon and provides above 20km altitude coverage, 360&#176; coverage and has sea surveillance capability*. The radar incorporates an identification friend or foe interrogator. The system comprises an active phased array pulse Doppler radar with a secondary surveillance radar.

The fixed dual sided electronically scanned antenna array is installed in a rectangular housing, dorsally mounted above the fuselage.

*
Electronic warfare suite*

The aircraft's electronic warfare suite is based on the Saab Avitronics HES-21 electronic support measures (ESM) and self-protection suite. The HES-21 also provides a ground-based support system (EGSS), which provides mission data for the aircraft electronic warfare system and for analysis of recorded data.

*Electronic support measures*

*The electronic support measures (ESM) system comprises digital narrow band and wide band receivers and associated antennae, providing close to 100 % probability of intercept (POI). The digital receiver is equipped with interferometer antenna arrays.*

The ESM obtains the electronic order of battle (EOB) data and intercepts, characterises and identifies signals, defines their direction of arrival, generating and displaying warning information. The ESM system operates autonomously and allows real time ESM analysis and presentation to the ESM operator on board the aircraft. ESM data is recorded during missions for post mission tactical and technical analysis. Information is transferred to other onboard systems including the command and control system and the radio data link-controller.

The radar receivers cover low band (7GHz to 2GHz), mid band (2GHz to 18GHz) and high band (28GHz to 40GHz).

*The digital RF receiver provides very high sensitivity and selectivity and uses fast Fourier transforms (FFT) and channelisation signal processing techniques. The ESM's wide band and narrow band receivers provide 360&#176; coverage, and close to 100% probability of intercept.* The system provides high sensitivity and selectivity in dense and hostile signal environments.

*Self-protection system*

The self-protection system (SPS) comprises: defensive aids control system, radar warning, laser warning, missile approach warning and chaff and flare dispenser systems. The self-protection suite provides selection and, in automatic mode, the initiation of the chaff and countermeasures sequences.

The laser warning system is based on the Saab Avitronics LWS-310 laser warner operating in the 0.5 to 17 microns wavelength bands. Spatial and spectral coverage is provided by an array of three sensors on each side of the aircraft.

The missile launch and approach warner (MAW) is based on the Saab Avitronics MAW-300, which can simultaneously monitor and track up to eight threats. It has four sensors, two on each side, and each with 110&#176; azimuthal coverage to provide the overlapped 360&#176; spatial coverage.

The chaff and flare dispensing system (CFDS) comprises a dispenser control unit, (CFDC) with a cockpit mounted display and control panel, defensive aids suite computer with a threat library database, two BOL electromechanical dispensers and six BOP pyrotechnical dispensers.

The BOL dispenser is a high-capacity, 160-cartridges, electro-mechanical chaff dispenser. The BOL dispensers are installed in the fairings under the wingtip-mounted radar warning pods. The dispenser incorporates vortex generators which provide chaff blooming characteristics and a chaff cloud Doppler response.

The BOP dispenser is a pyrotechnic dispenser carrying Nato standard rectangular cartridges or magazines of 39 1in&#178; cartridges. The dispenser has the capability to dispense different ammunition types concurrently. The BOP dispensers are housed on each side of the underside of the fuselage to the aft of the wings.

*Engine*

The aircraft is fitted with two Rolls-Royce AE 2100A turboprop engines developing 3,095kW.


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## mean_bird

All this is old news but thanks for the refresher anyway.


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## jawadqamar

> All this is old news but thanks for the refresher anyway.



Canyou point me to some link detailing about the mission operator consoles and their functions of &#8220;Saab 2000 AEW&C&#8221;


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## mean_bird

jawadqamar said:


> Canyou point me to some link detailing about the mission operator consoles and their functions of Saab 2000 AEW&C



What kind of details are you looking for?

They perform the functions that you mentioned above. There are 5 mission operator consoles and they are role based so no difference between consoles i.e anyone can log in with his defined role on any console. You can even remotely control all the consoles without having any operator on board. 

I am sorry, I didn't get you question correctly, kindly rephrase it. I will keep an eye for any details and post here if I find some.

In the meantime, here are some links but basically the same as you posted above maybe one or two things new.

1. Saab Debut '2000 Special Mission Aircraft at Farnborough

2. Saab 2000 AEW&C prepares for duty: AINonline

3. http://www.saabgroup.com/NR/rdonlyr...ECA8/7511/Saab_2000_ERIEYE_AEWC_Datasheet.pdf


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## Zarbe Momin

Geo News stated that today (28.05.09) Saab 2000 AEW&C Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft is going to be enter in PAF in September or October. Air Chief Rao Qamar Suleman declared on his address on the passing out parade in PAF academy at Raisalpur.


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## mean_bird

* PAF capable of destroying drones: Air Chief*

RISALPUR: Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman Thursday said that air force destroyed several hideouts and caches of ammunitions of militants and paved the way for the military to make advance in the troubled areas of Swat.

He said that air force is completely supporting the military in its ongoing efforts in the tribal areas and Swat, adding F-16, F-7 and Mirages are taking part in the Swat operation.

The Air Chief maintained that Pakistan armed forces are grappling with not only the greater external enemies but also the problems of extremism and terrorism within the country.

Later talking to journalists, he said targeting the drones and taking them down is not a problem and Pakistan Air Force is fully capable for the purpose; however, any decision in this regard rests with the parliament and the government.

However, the Air Chief added that the action could lead Pakistan to confrontation with Nato or US.

*Air Chief Marshal Rao said that Pakistan shot down Indian UAV drone during the 2001-02 standoff with India.*

*He hoped that Pakistan is likely to receive AWACS planes in November or October, adding India was given the same aircrafts which could lead to fresh escalation and arms race in the region.*

Rao Qamar Suleman said that the country has a lot of expectations from the Air Force, which it will try to fulfil at all cost without fail.


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## mughaljee

very good news. 
but will some one guide us , our system is better then the,
which indian received from israel ? or not better ?


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## hj786

mughaljee said:


> very good news.
> but will some one guide us , our system is better then the,
> which indian received from israel ? or not better ?



Their system is better. PAF's is nearly as good, it has some advantages over theirs which make it more suited for the needs of PAF.


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## Arsalan

mughaljee said:


> very good news.
> but will some one guide us , our system is better then the,
> which indian received from israel ? or not better ?



well in these cases the comparison never gives you an authentic conclusion of which system is better! all we can do is to compare ther specs. the specs of SAAB Erieye systems have been disscussed over and over again but that of phalcons is not available in that much detail:

to start with, the israeli PHALCON AWACS are termed as one of the best AWACS system of the world. no such thing is claimed about the erieye but a point that must not be neglected is that the phalcon system is some 25 years old and the claim of *"being the best"* also date back to thst tim while the erieye is still a new and modren system with no history to tell us its real time abilities but still, it is a new system of the current time and not from the 80z.

as for the range, the erieye seem to have won some extra points here,


> * "It can help monitor the military build-up, troop and aircraft movements nearly 200 km inside Pakistan while flying nearly 100 km inside your own territory," says Air Marshal A.K. Goel (retd IAF officer)*this indicates the range being some where around +300 Km.


also form another article


> "Phalcon AWACS, for instance, will be able to detect a *two square metre target from over 200 km away.* Bigger targets can be spotted from 400 to 500 km away.


also adding a report which stated


> The system is used for tactical surveillance of airborne and surface targets and intelligence gathering to a radius of over 400 km.



so it can be said that the detection range for a fighter plane is some where around 250 -300Km and a survelince range of about 400 -450 Km

for the erieye the dection range of a fighter size object is +350Km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environmentand general instrumental range is 450 Km. in addition it also have a sea surveillance mode.

as far as the platform carrying these radars are concerned, the indian are the winners here with superior russian plae with more speed, service celing and range!

so for conclusion, in my opinion both are equally good for there owners and our system definetly serves us the best and satisfy our needs!

i hope this comparison was helpfull and easy to understand for all the respected members!

regards!


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## SQ8

I thought the ERIEYE's predecessor has been and is in service with the swedes for a long time too.


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## mean_bird

mean_bird said:


> *He hoped that Pakistan is likely to receive AWACS planes in November or October, adding India was given the same aircrafts which could lead to fresh escalation and arms race in the region.*



Here's the video of that


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## nn2211nn

The AWACS's will be inducted by 2009-2010. Pakistan air force has also signed (MOD) with China on development of AEW&C.First Saab 2000 AWACS aircraft ...


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## Arsalan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well in these cases the comparison never gives you an authentic conclusion of which system is better! all we can do is to compare ther specs. the specs of SAAB Erieye systems have been disscussed over and over again but that of phalcons is not available in that much detail:
> 
> to start with, the israeli PHALCON AWACS are termed as one of the best AWACS system of the world. no such thing is claimed about the erieye but a point that must not be neglected is that the phalcon system is some 25 years old and the claim of *"being the best"* also date back to thst tim while the erieye is still a new and modren system with no history to tell us its real time abilities but still, it is a new system of the current time and not from the 80z.
> 
> as for the range, the erieye seem to have won some extra points here,
> 
> also form another article
> 
> also adding a report which stated
> 
> 
> so it can be said that the detection range for a fighter plane is some where around 250 -300Km and a survelince range of about 400 -450 Km
> 
> for the erieye the dection range of a fighter size object is +350Km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environmentand general instrumental range is 450 Km. in addition it also have a sea surveillance mode.
> 
> as far as the platform carrying these radars are concerned, the indian are the winners here with superior russian plae with more speed, service celing and range!
> 
> so for conclusion, in my opinion both are equally good for there owners and our system definetly serves us the best and satisfy our needs!
> 
> i hope this comparison was helpfull and easy to understand for all the respected members!
> 
> regards!




and friends i forget to add that the service celeing factor, where the phalcons clearly have an upper hand will be neutrailized with the induction of chines AEW&C as it will be mounted on a superior platform!

all in all, the AWE&C sector of pakistan military seem to be on par with its counterpart!

what do you guys think of the comparison!

pakistan zindabad


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## mean_bird

KJ-200/ZDK03


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## Neo

*AWACS by Oct: PAF : Pakistan will not be intimidated, says Gen Kayani​*
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will not be terrorised and God willing the army will succeed in its anti-Taliban efforts, Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said at his visit to a training area for troops in Lahore on Thursday.

During his visit Kayani condemned Wednesdays suicide attack in Lahore where besides police, five defence personnel including a lieutenant colonel were martyred. 

Also on Thursday, Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman said the drone issue could be countered but a policy decision on the subject had to be taken by parliament and the government.

Talking to reporters after addressing a graduation ceremony at Risalpur Academy, he said during the 2001-02 Indo-Pak standoff, the PAF had shot down an Indian drone, which had infringed upon Pakistani territory. 

To another question, the air chief said the PAF had the capability to absorb any modern technology to defend the territorial jurisdiction of the country.

The air chief said acquisition of spying satellite and AWACS by India had created an imbalance in the power in the region, in response to which, *Pakistan would get an Air Warning and Control System (AWACS) by October.*

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## sancho

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Quote:
> "It can help monitor the military build-up, troop and aircraft movements nearly 200 km inside Pakistan while flying nearly 100 km inside your own territory," says Air Marshal A.K. Goel (retd IAF officer)this indicates the range being some where around +300 Km.
> also form another article
> Quote:
> "*Phalcon AWACS, for instance, will be able to detect a two square metre target from over 200 km away*. Bigger targets can be spotted from 400 to 500 km away.
> 
> so it can be said that the detection range for a fighter plane is some where around 250 -300Km and a survelince range of about 400 -450 Km
> 
> for the erieye the dection range of a fighter size object is +350Km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environmentand general instrumental range is 450 Km. in addition it also have a sea surveillance mode.


Depends on how big the RCS of the aircraft is! An F16 is bigger than two square meter right?
What about the erieye do you have some numbers or links when it can detect a target of... square metre?
I think PAF erieye AEWs will be comparable to IAF AEW jv with Embraer, but the Phalcons should be more capable.


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## Imran Khan

see viedeo i post indian awacs thread there is info abut detection of saab


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## Contrarian

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well in these cases the comparison never gives you an authentic conclusion of which system is better! all we can do is to compare ther specs. the specs of SAAB Erieye systems have been disscussed over and over again but that of phalcons is not available in that much detail:
> 
> to start with, the israeli PHALCON AWACS are termed as one of the best AWACS system of the world. no such thing is claimed about the erieye but a point that must not be neglected is that the phalcon system is some 25 years old and the claim of *"being the best"* also date back to thst tim while the erieye is still a new and modren system with no history to tell us its real time abilities but still, it is a new system of the current time and not from the 80z.
> 
> as for the range, the erieye seem to have won some extra points here,
> 
> also form another article
> 
> also adding a report which stated
> 
> 
> so it can be said that the detection range for a fighter plane is some where around 250 -300Km and a survelince range of about 400 -450 Km
> 
> for the erieye the dection range of a fighter size object is +350Km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environmentand general instrumental range is 450 Km. in addition it also have a sea surveillance mode.
> 
> as far as the platform carrying these radars are concerned, the indian are the winners here with superior russian plae with more speed, service celing and range!
> 
> so for conclusion, in my opinion both are equally good for there owners and our system definetly serves us the best and satisfy our needs!
> 
> i hope this comparison was helpfull and easy to understand for all the respected members!
> 
> regards!


Hehe, those specs are not even close. They are the ones for the previous generation of Phalcons. Also the Indian one is mounted on a much larger platform-a lot of extra things have gone in, apart from a bigger radar.
Neo might be able to confirm that i think. He has his moments!


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## Contrarian

Neo said:


> *AWACS by Oct: PAF : Pakistan will not be intimidated, says Gen Kayani​*
> The air chief said acquisition of spying satellite and AWACS by India had created an imbalance in the power in the region, in response to which, *Pakistan would get an Air Warning and Control System (AWACS) by October.*



I cant resist adding-the first dedicated Military communications satellite will also be launched next year.


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## Arsalan

sancho said:


> Depends on how big the RCS of the aircraft is! An F16 is bigger than two square meter right?
> What about the erieye do you have some numbers or links when it can detect a target of... square metre?
> I think PAF erieye AEWs will be comparable to IAF AEW jv with Embraer, but the Phalcons should be more capable.



any information on it!
what are the upgrades??


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## Keysersoze

arsalanaslam123 said:


> any information on it!
> what are the upgrades??



Do some damn research man and stop spamming the forum with Inane requests.


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## Arsalan

you made me confused again sir!!!

wont we be getting the KJ2000 from china?? the KJ200 is something very similar to erieye and the KJ2000 seems to be something diiferent!
can you help me out please! again!!! 

regards!


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## Keysersoze

malaymishra123 said:


> I cant resist adding-the first dedicated Military communications satellite will also be launched next year.



Many a slip twixt cup and a lip.......


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## s90

Saab 2000 AWACS explained :

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## moha199

^^^^Thanks for info


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## s90

Info from Saab's website : Saab - Products A-Z

The ERIEYE AEW&C is the world&#8217;s only operational airborne Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar in service today. The Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C utilises the latest generation ERIEYE radar, now capable of detecting small air targets, hovering helicopters, cruise missiles and small sea targets such as inflatable rubber boats, for a more complete surveillance picture.

*Radar System performance:*
&#8226; Active Phased Array Pulse Doppler multi-mode radar
&#8226; 450 km range and above 20 km (65,000 ft) altitude coverage
&#8226; Effective surveillance area of 500,000 sq km
&#8226; Capable of combined air and sea surveillance
&#8226; Automatic tracking of priority air targets
&#8226; Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system


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## Arsalan

s90 said:


> Info from Saab's website : Saab - Products A-Z
> 
> The ERIEYE AEW&C is the worlds only operational airborne Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar in service today. The Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C utilises the latest generation ERIEYE radar, now capable of detecting small air targets, hovering helicopters, cruise missiles and small sea targets such as inflatable rubber boats, for a more complete surveillance picture.
> 
> *Radar System performance:*
>  Active Phased Array Pulse Doppler multi-mode radar
>  450 km range and above 20 km (65,000 ft) altitude coverage
>  Effective surveillance area of 500,000 sq km
>  Capable of combined air and sea surveillance
>  Automatic tracking of priority air targets
>  Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system



ther has been a lot of talk of its comparison with indian Phalcon system, i myself have posted ther comparison and would request you to do post something about indian phalcon system. it is rumored that vthe indian phalcon is very much different form israeli planes, can you or someone else shed some light on it!

yes the specs of PHALCON is already discussed but the spec of modified system for the indians (if there is any), i dont find it here in this thread!
i would really apreciate if someone can come up with some USEFUL replay!

ragards!


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## Keysersoze

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...nally-recieves-awacs-israel-6.html#post388960


look at the above thread. it gives the info needed

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## Myth_buster_1

Here is another S-2k erieye takeoff






another one.

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## TOPGUN

I sure hope we get our awac's soon inshallah!


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## mughaljee

Inshah Allah


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## pakpower

Which System is more advance in between Phalcon and Saab Eyrie ?


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## Munir

I have strong feeling that this is PAF version...

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## hj786

Looks great, the thing has 12 antennas, not including the ESM antennas. JF-17 data-linked to these will give those flankers something to think about. 

Munir, will this and Saab 2000 be able to take off from unprepared airstrips and rough fields and so on? Could this be the main reason why PAF are going for smaller turbo-prop platforms?


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## TOPGUN

I wonder if it will look just like that in one in the pic? wat are the possible body shape guys?


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## Arsalan

i wished it would have been the more advanced KJ2000 AWACS!!
what do you guys say??


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## paritosh

pakpower said:


> Which System is more advance in between Phalcon and Saab Eyrie ?



the phalcon


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## Myth_buster_1

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i wished it would have been the more advanced KJ2000 AWACS!!
> what do you guys say??



Got money?


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## Munir

The delivery is in the next few years. Paf wanted some alterations like cockpit ergonomy. You can see that cockpit is very modern... And they added wingtip pods like Erieye but bigger...

Whether you land this plane on rough lanes? Nopes. High wing, 4 engines, rough main gear may sugest but this plane is delicate. You do not want to damage it. You cannot afford to have it outside good guarded afe area. As far as possible from enemies. And you will need maintenance or replacement crew. Besides that those nice antenna's would get fod problems.


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## hj786

Munir said:


> Whether you land this plane on rough lanes? Nopes. High wing, 4 engines, rough main gear may sugest but this plane is delicate. You do not want to damage it. You cannot afford to have it outside good guarded afe area. As far as possible from enemies. And you will need maintenance or replacement crew. Besides that those nice antenna's would get fod problems.



But it is possible in an emergency, right? Surely they would have strengthened the roof sufficiently to ensure the antenna weight would not cause a problem when landing/taking off on improvised airstrips, if not rough fields.


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## sancho

Munir said:


> I have strong feeling that this is PAF version...


Interesting but do you mean alongside the Saab 2000, or instead?
Can you tell me if this chinese aircraft offers in-flight refueling?


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## Arsalan

Growler said:


> Got money?



i wish sir jee!! 

anyhow i would suggest to keep the procurment to SAAB and in five to ten years go for KJ2000 instead of getting a chines system right now!

regards!


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## Myth_buster_1

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i wish sir jee!!
> 
> anyhow i would suggest to keep the procurment to SAAB and in five to ten years go for KJ2000 instead of getting a chines system right now!
> 
> regards!



in five to ten years PAF is going to have a huge 300 JF-17 & FC-20 fleet so just alone erieye wont be enough. also in ten years their might be something more latest technology available in the market so no need to go for something that will be 20+ years old by then.


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## blain2

paritosh said:


> the phalcon



Lets qualify that statement. Phalcon is not more advanced just because its the Phalcon. It has a greater range and has more powerful transmitters. However range alone does not automatically mean that its more advanced. Swedes arguably make the world's best DL/ECM suites. Their aviation industry is more advanced than the Israeli one and they have just as much expertise designing very slick technical solutions.

There are a whole bunch of amateur articles on the web pointing out that Phalcon is on the high-end, well its on the high-end because of the range/price. However what is best depends on where it is to be used and under what circumstances. In many ways, the Erieye has better performance parameters overall (Radar + platform) than the Phalcon. 

I believe most of the people who have bought on to the hype of Phalcon to be the best there is would be surprised to find out that others on the market are not in any way inferior just because you pay less or they have a lesser range (the range issue also has to be qualified because it really is not the end of it all for AEW systems).

From the standpoint of Radar, IFF, ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT, both platforms offer these capabilities with very similar technologies. Aside from slightly lesser range and #of transmitters, the Erieye does all of the above just as good if not better than the Phalcon. Both platforms have quite a bit of proprietary technology on board thus a 1v1 comparison is difficult, however in all surveillance and ECM regimes, both have similar capabilities.

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## Keysersoze

The question I want ot know is wether it can feather engines like the P-3 in order to prolong on station time. 

Oh that reminds me not much discussions of the Hawkeye 2000 at the moment.


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## Arsalan

blain2 said:


> Lets qualify that statement. Phalcon is not more advanced just because its the Phalcon. It has a greater range and has more powerful transmitters. However range alone does not automatically mean that its more advanced. Swedes arguably make the world's best DL/ECM suites. Their aviation industry is more advanced than the Israeli one and they have just as much expertise designing very slick technical solutions.
> 
> There are a whole bunch of amateur articles on the web pointing out that Phalcon is on the high-end, well its on the high-end because of the range/price. However what is best depends on where it is to be used and under what circumstances. In many ways, the Erieye has better performance parameters overall (Radar + platform) than the Phalcon.
> 
> I believe most of the people who have bought on to the hype of Phalcon to be the best there is would be surprised to find out that others on the market are not in any way inferior just because you pay less or they have a lesser range (the range issue also has to be qualified because it really is not the end of it all for AEW systems).
> 
> From the standpoint of Radar, IFF, ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT, both platforms offer these capabilities with very similar technologies. Aside from slightly lesser range and #of transmitters, the Erieye does all of the above just as good if not better than the Phalcon. Both platforms have quite a bit of proprietary technology on board thus a 1v1 comparison is difficult, however in all surveillance and ECM regimes, both have similar capabilities.



sir please correct me on this if i am wrong:
according to the information i have went through the range is also noy an issue! the erieye have a dection range of 350 Km against a fighter sized aircraft and the phalcons also fall is 300 - 350 Km category! though for larger target it rises upto 500Km and that for erieye it is 450km so i gusee it is the same!
but yes as far as the transmitter are concerened the Phalcon may have some plus points!
the main edge that Phalcon have comes from the platform that carries them ie more service ceiling more range and air time!

please let me know if i am wrong at some point!
regards!


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## Munir

Phalcon can be refueled. But how would you handle 10+ hours flight? You will make errors even with reserve crew. So Erieye has enough potential. And the radar is better suited in heavy cluttered and filled with ecm environment. It can act more stealthy due its pencil means. It is smaller so less handy to track from huge distance. And it is a lot cheaper in maintenance....

Capability are better in closer range.

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## Contrarian

blain2 said:


> Lets qualify that statement. Phalcon is not more advanced just because its the Phalcon. It has a greater range and has more powerful transmitters. However range alone does not automatically mean that its more advanced. Swedes arguably make the world's best DL/ECM suites. Their aviation industry is more advanced than the Israeli one and they have just as much expertise designing very slick technical solutions.
> 
> There are a whole bunch of amateur articles on the web pointing out that Phalcon is on the high-end, well its on the high-end because of the range/price. However what is best depends on where it is to be used and under what circumstances. In many ways, the Erieye has better performance parameters overall (Radar + platform) than the Phalcon.
> 
> I believe most of the people who have bought on to the hype of Phalcon to be the best there is would be surprised to find out that others on the market are not in any way inferior just because you pay less or they have a lesser range (the range issue also has to be qualified because it really is not the end of it all for AEW systems).
> 
> From the standpoint of Radar, IFF, ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT, both platforms offer these capabilities with very similar technologies. Aside from slightly lesser range and #of transmitters, the Erieye does all of the above just as good if not better than the Phalcon. Both platforms have quite a bit of proprietary technology on board thus a 1v1 comparison is difficult, however in all surveillance and ECM regimes, both have similar capabilities.



I would also suggest that Israeli's, namesly Elisra is one of the finest in terms of EW capabilities. Israel has niche capabilities that is better than most of the alternatives.
Apart from the range, price, more powerful transmitters, number of transmitters, there is also the issue of number of operators/consoles.

And incase you are talking about the performance penalties of the static rotodome, then you should also have read on the new engines installed on this version of the Il.

A lot of things mate here mate, money does pay off _somewhere_ and you have to accept it. Though for PAF's needs and the threat to IAF, the Erieye is more than sufficient, after all beyond a certain requirement, additional capabilities offer only diminishing returns for the money spent. India has different requirements.

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## Contrarian

Munir said:


> Phalcon can be refueled. But how would you handle 10+ hours flight? You will make errors even with reserve crew.



Doubtful about refueling. With the rotodome, it would be very hard as well in practice.


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## blain2

malaymishra123 said:


> I would also suggest that Israeli's, namesly Elisra is one of the finest in terms of EW capabilities. Israel has niche capabilities that is better than most of the alternatives.
> Apart from the range, price, more powerful transmitters, number of transmitters, there is also the issue of number of operators/consoles.
> 
> And incase you are talking about the performance penalties of the static rotodome, then you should also have read on the new engines installed on this version of the Il.
> 
> A lot of things mate here mate, money does pay off _somewhere_ and you have to accept it. Though for PAF's needs and the threat to IAF, the Erieye is more than sufficient, after all beyond a certain requirement, additional capabilities offer only diminishing returns for the money spent. India has different requirements.



Malay, you are partial to the Israeli systems thus you state what you state. The fact of the matter is that nobody in the West is producing Radar, ECM/ECCM suites that are a generation ahead of each other. The Swedes have been developing these systems longer than the Israelis and have essentially created a niche for themselves by trying to sell to those countries who were not able to access US E3 capability. By any regard, the technology going into Swedish systems is as good or better than what is being fielded by NATO members and certainly comparable to what the Israelis are producing.

The larger number of operators and consoles help? How so? Can you state that 10 (Phalcon ?) vs. 6 (Erieye) is better? It just depends on how well the sensor fusion and integration has been done and which operator can do the workload of two or more. The key is in the way the information is processed and presented to the user. Not sure anyone even at Elta/Elisra or Ericsson would know this about each other's systems and for us to blindly assume that more is always better has yet to be seen. One little tidbit that I can offer you is that in terms of ECM and secure communications, the Swedes were ahead of NATO when the latter were thinking about DL with Link 16/22 systems. The Swedes had this sec comm. requirement for their Viggens and had deployed a systems way back which is similar to what you folks have on your MKIs (it was for use just between the Viggen aircraft). So there is a lot of innovation and quality coming from Swedens SAAB/Ericsson powerhouse so underestimation is off mark. 

Not all of the Phalcons cost the same. You paid more because of your unique integration challenges with a Russian platform and Israelis avionics integration. 

I have no problems with IAF going with Phalcon if it suits their requirements (similar to what you have said), however baseless comments like "Phalcon is better" should be qualified with some objective analysis and not just "well it looks and feels better" sort of thing.

On the refueling issue too, PAF Erieyes are fully capable of IFR. Better fuel economy and station time were key clinchers for choosing the turbo-props (its one of the fastest ones around) over jets.


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## Contrarian

blain2 said:


> Malay, you are partial to the Israeli systems thus you state what you state. The fact of the matter is that nobody in the West is producing Radar, ECM/ECCM suites that are a generation ahead of each other. The Swedes have been developing these systems longer than the Israelis and have essentially created a niche for themselves by trying to sell to those countries who were not able to access US E3 capability. By any regard, the technology going into Swedish systems is as good or better than what is being fielded by NATO members and certainly hangs with what the Israelis are producing.


Sure, i am not implying inferior. Im just pointing out that the Israeli experience in the EW/ECM field is quite a bit. Standard US equipment is removed and Israeli ones are routinely added by Israel, this apart they do bag their contracts in the west itself for their EW equipments.
Either way, this is a fruitless line of discussion.


> The larger number of operators and consoles help? How so? Can you state that 10 (Phalcon ?) vs. 6 (Erieye) is better? It just depends on how well the sensor fusion and integration has been done and which operator can do the workload of two or more. The key is in the way the information is processes and presented to the user.


It depends quite a lot if you are conducting EW, ESM, or other operations of the sort. Then it depends quite a bit. Would you not wonder consider why countries go for AWACS as opposed to AEW&C's were there no difference. Certainly bigger planes entail much larger operational costs.



> Not sure anyone even at Elta or Ericsson would know this about each other's systems and for us to blindly assume that more is always better has yet to be seen.


I agree.



> Not all of the Phalcons cost the same. You paid more because of your unique integration challenges with a Russian platform and Israelis avionics integration.


The 'unique' integration challenges were not actually that unique. China had contracted for, and the integration done for a similar system way back. China contracted for Phalcon systems to be put up on the same platform. Israel had done it, then had to renege on their sale because of US opposition to the deal. They didnt do anything ground breaking this time round.



> I have no problems with IAF going with Phalcon if it suits their requirements (similar to what you have said), however baseless comments like "Phalcon is better" should be qualified with some objective analysis and not just "well it looks and feels better" sort of thing.
> On the refueling issue too, PAF Erieyes are fully capable of IFR. Better fuel economy and station time were key clinchers for choosing the turbo-props (its the fastest one around) over jets.


I agree. I am providing my reasons for the same. There is a reason for difference of the platform, if not the system itself. Smaller countries, smaller economies, smaller threat perception, smaller needs, all play one part or another(depending on country to country) in the choice of the system.

I do assure you, that had PAF been flush with finances and options, you would not have gone for the Erieye. That doesnt take away from what this system is capable of though especially in the South Asian context.


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## blain2

malaymishra123 said:


> Sure, i am not implying inferior. Im just pointing out that the Israeli experience in the EW/ECM field is quite a bit. Standard US equipment is removed and Israeli ones are routinely added by Israel, this apart they do bag their contracts in the west itself for their EW equipments.
> Either way, this is a fruitless line of discussion.



Standard US equipment is removed because Israelis want to keep their jobs and military industrial complex financed. Secondly, the Israeli systems are optimized for their own use. Israelis make good stuff no doubt, my point simply is that Swedes are no less.



> It depends quite a lot if you are conducting EW, ESM, or other operations of the sort. Then it depends quite a bit. Would you not wonder consider why countries go for AWACS as opposed to AEW&C's were there no difference. Certainly bigger planes entail much larger operational costs.



The distinction between AWACS and AEW&CS is faulty. There is no difference any more. The term AWACS has undergone a generational change and you will only hear AEW&CS. Israeli ELTA officially calls their Phalcon Solution "Conformal Airborne Early Warning & Control" which becomes C AEW&C. They themselves do not use the older AWACS acronym any longer. Neither do the folks at SAAB nor the ones at Boeing selling their Wedgetail. The only ones trying to figure out the capabilities difference between such AEW platforms are those who are clueless about how the nature of the program has changed and that terms AWACS and AEW&C do not automatically mean a difference in capabilities with the former being higher end than the latter. Check the data sheet for the Israeli solution and you will find no mention of the term AWACS. That acronym got coined in late 70s and early 80s when the E3 appeared on the scene.




> The 'unique' integration challenges were not actually that unique. China had contracted for, and the integration done for a similar system way back. China contracted for Phalcon systems to be put up on the same platform. Israel had done it, then had to renege on their sale because of US opposition to the deal. They didnt do anything ground breaking this time round.



Agreed! However I do not think that actual integration work had been done by the Israelis on the Chinese platform before the US killed it. You may want to look up the details on the progress of that program.




> I do assure you, that had PAF been flush with finances and options, you would not have gone for the Erieye. That doesnt take away from what this system is capable of though especially in the South Asian context.



Even if we had more money than the approx $2 billion we are spending on the Erieye, do you really think that PAF would have gone for the dated E3? Or for that matter Wedgetail? What you fail to realize is that we went for the Erieyes because they met our ASRs and in the time period that we expected. E2s were on offer but PAF rejected them with the PN now planning on taking ownership of the most advanced version of the E2 radar (APY-9). So the Erieyes were selected on merit even though E2s could have been had via FMS just like the PN will be getting. Quality, specifications, schedule and capability of the Erieyes were all key considerations in their selection.

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## Contrarian

blain2 said:


> Standard US equipment is removed because Israelis want to keep their jobs and military industrial complex financed. Secondly, the Israeli systems are optimized for their own use. Israelis make good stuff no doubt, my point simply is that Swedes are no less.


I agree.



> The distinction between AWACS and AEW&CS is faulty. There is no difference any more. The term AWACS has undergone a generational change and you will only hear AEW&CS. Israeli ELTA officially calls their Phalcon Solution "Conformal Airborne Early Warning & Control" which becomes C AEW&C. They themselves do not use the older AWACS acronym any longer. Neither do the folks at SAAB nor the ones at Boeing selling their Wedgetail. The only ones trying to figure out the capabilities difference between such AEW platforms are those who are clueless about how the nature of the program has changed and that AWACS and AEW&C does not automatically mean a difference in capabilities with the former being higher end than the latter. Check the data sheet for the Israeli solution and you will find no mention of the term AWACS. That acronym got coined in late 70s and early 80s when the E3 appeared on the scene.


I do know of the difference you are point out. However let me redefine what i said-substitute the term AWACS with "Bigger planes with bigger capacity, bigger radars, more processing ability-lesser dependence on ground stations". You already know examples of the planes i am talking about. My point still stands regardless of the terminology.



> Even if we had more money than the approx $2 billion we are spending on the Erieye, do you really think that PAF would have gone for the dated E3? Or for that matter Wedgetail? What you fail to realize is that we went for the Erieyes because they met our ASRs and in the time period that we expected. E2s were on offer but PAF rejected them with the PN now planning on taking ownership of the most advanced version of the E2 radar (APY-9). So the Erieyes were selected on merit even though E2s could have been had via FMS just like the PN will be getting. Quality, specifications, schedule and capability of the Erieyes were all key considerations in their selection.


Options, there are other options, i would easily say that Erieye is not the best the west has to offer. Fear of sanctions or something of the like is a different issue. Again, i would stick with the statement blain, and you would agree, if PAF were flush with funds, they would not have gone with the Erieye.


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## blain2

malaymishra123 said:


> I do know of the difference you are point out. However let me redefine what i said-substitute the term AWACS with "Bigger planes with bigger capacity, bigger radars, more processing ability-lesser dependence on ground stations". You already know examples of the planes i am talking about. My point still stands regardless of the terminology.



Malay,

If one thing time and technology offers us then it is miniaturization of technology with greater capacity. There are no sensors that would only fit on a 747 or IL-78 type aircraft and not on a Saab 2000. The latter is a pretty big platform, much bigger than the Israeli Phalcon platform for the IDFAF. Size does not mean that you are going to have more goods automatically. Otherwise IDFAF would have opted for a 737 or whatever larger for their own version of Phalcon too. You chose an aircraft that gives you more room but also has the same maintenance footprint as your IFR platforms for ease of maintenance. You are already looking at much smaller platforms for your indigenous version of AEW&C platform instead of sticking with the Russian ones.

The Wedgetail solution is being offered on an aircraft much smaller than the IL or the 707 (E3). So these are all generational challenges. Technology is smaller, more powerful and can be packed in much less space than what used to be the case. This is not a case of a nose of an aircraft in which a certain radar has to be housed. The entire aircraft is available and for such capability, even smaller gulfstream type aircraft are sufficient. 5 operators can do a lot more work than 12 operators on the older systems such as E3 AWACS. 



> Options, there are other options, i would easily say that Erieye is not the best the west has to offer. Fear of sanctions or something of the like is a different issue. Again, i would stick with the statement blain, and you would agree, if PAF were flush with funds, they would not have gone with the Erieye.



Aside from Wedgetail, there is nothing else on the market currently. Wedgetail may be better in certain regimes, but as I have maintained all along, no one system currently on the market is as such where it is the best hands down.


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## Contrarian

blain2 said:


> Malay,
> 
> If one thing time and technology offers us then it is miniaturization of technology with greater capacity. There are no sensors that would only fit on a 747 or IL-78 type aircraft and not on a Saab 2000. The latter is a pretty big platform, much bigger than the Israeli Phalcon platform for the IDFAF. Size does not mean that you are going to have more goods automatically. Otherwise IDFAF would have opted for a 737 or whatever larger for their own version of Phalcon too. You chose an aircraft that gives you more room but also has the same maintenance footprint as your IFR platforms for ease of maintenance. You are already looking at much smaller platforms for your indigenous version of AEW&C platform instead of sticking with the Russian ones.
> 
> The Wedgetail solution is being offered on an aircraft much smaller than the IL or the 747 (E3). So these are all generational challenges. Technology is smaller, more powerful and can be packed in much less space than what used to be the case. This is not a case of a nose of an aircraft in which a certain radar has to be housed. The entire aircraft is available and for such capability, even smaller gulfstream type aircraft are sufficient. 5 operators can do a lot more work than 12 operators on the older systems such as E3 AWACS.


Mate, if miniaturization was all there was to it, then would you not wonder why all the new AWACS would be based on Embraer type platforms. The same miniaturization allows for integration of a lot more equipment on a bigger plane. This apart there are crew resting areas and numerous other things. And yes, the same 3 operators can accomplish the work of 12 erstwhile ones, but the 12 new ones with many more associated antennae(which would be present on the larger platform) and stations would be a lot more useful. The Phalcon is also of the same generation and rough time frame as the Erieye, so miniaturization benefits vis-a-vis each other are negligible.

It all boils down to size, scale,threat and economy of the country operating the system, nothing else.

India has gone for the Embraer type systems, not because of performance, but because the need for smaller nodes. The strategic level AWACS are here, 3-4 more will be ordered. The rest will be on EMB's as the tactical extensions. This apart, its best to walk before running, something our project managers seem to have learned finally.



> Aside from Wedgetail, there is nothing else on the market currently. Wedgetail may be better in certain regimes, but as I have maintained all along, no one system currently on the market is as such where it is the best hands down.


I would again suggest Phalcon, but that would be subject to availability. Not to mention the MESA system's now!

Erieye satisfies PAF requirements and is the lightest in terms of budget and maintenance, thus the reason for choosing Erieye. Again, operative word here being satisfaction of PAF requirements.

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## blain2

You are putting way too much emphasis on real estate. Space does not make the system a Phalcon or an Erieye. The same Phalcon radar and the associated hardware has been housed on 3 GF550s for the IDFAF. These are small commuter aircraft even smaller than the Pakistani SAAB 2000s. I am sure the Israelis have not cut corners on their own requirements by going with a much smaller platform than the one the IAF has picked for themselves in the form of IL-78s. So I do not buy this bigger = better argument. Now for certain roles like policing around the region, as you have mentioned, you may want more air crew comfort with more lavatories, bunk beds etc. and that can be had on larger aircraft, however that hardly makes for a qualitative superiority over a platform that has more limited space yet packs similar radar and ECM/ECCM capabilities.


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## sancho

Munir said:


> Phalcon can be refueled. But how would you handle 10+ hours flight? You will make errors even with reserve crew. So Erieye has enough potential. And the radar is better suited in heavy cluttered and filled with ecm environment. It can act more stealthy due its pencil means. It is smaller so less handy to track from huge distance. And it is a lot cheaper in maintenance....
> 
> Capability are better in closer range.


Even the Mki handle long hour missions with only 2 pilots, so it should be no problem for AWACS with a complete second crew!
In case of the radar system both should be at the same advanced level with slightly advantages like Blain2 pointed out. But the A50 gives IAF a clear advantage as long PAF has not some more numbers of AWACS aircrafts. But both will serve their airforces with their different requirements well.



malaymishra123 said:


> Doubtful about refueling. With the rotodome, it would be very hard as well in practice.


Why the refueling probe is in front of the cockpit, this seems to be easier than the refueling of US AWACS:

Indian awacs image by adux21 on Photobucket

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/eads-awacs-refuelling.jpg


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## BoggedDown

> Would you not wonder consider why countries go for AWACS as opposed to AEW&C's were there no difference.



This is the typical mistake most people make when discussing this subject. The matter of fact is AWACS was the name of the project for the development of E3 Sentry for USAF and AEW&C is the function it is developed to perform. But now a days in general discussion the term AWACS is used for every aircraft which performs AEW&C function. But if you really want to be picky only E3 Sentry is the AWACS and all including the E3 Sentry are functioning as AEW&C ....

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## hj786

blain2 said:


> On the refueling issue too,* PAF Erieyes are fully capable of IFR.* Better fuel economy and station time were key clinchers for choosing the turbo-props (its one of the fastest ones around) over jets.


Blain sir, do you mean to say PAF's Saab 2000 Erieye will be equipped with IFR probes? Can I ask about the source of this information? I have not read anything like that on the internet.

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## blain2

I am wrong on that count and glad you pointed it out. I was thinking about another offered configuration of the Erieye. My apologies.


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## hj786

blain2 said:


> I am wrong on that count and glad you pointed it out. I was thinking about another offered configuration of the Erieye. My apologies.



Why didn't PAF go for the Embraer 145 platform for Erieye? Almost the same range and cargo/crew capacity as Saab 2000, higher ceiling and speed, IFR capable. Even if Saab 2000 is a lot more fuel efficient at low speed, the Embraer can be refuelled in the air.

I guess the Swedes told them if they want the best EW/ESM and defensive aids systems, they have to buy the Swedish platform. That plus the fuel efficiency and loitering time without IFR.

Anybody know if they'll fit ZDK03 with IFR probes?


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## mean_bird

hj786 said:


> Why didn't PAF go for the Embraer 145 platform for Erieye? Almost the same range and cargo/crew capacity as Saab 2000, higher ceiling and speed, IFR capable. Even if Saab 2000 is a lot more fuel efficient at low speed, the Embraer can be refuelled in the air.
> 
> ?



Time factor. 

Another platform would have required waiting till atleast 2012-13 to get delivery of the first platform.

Besides, the SAAB can be used for about 9.5 hours at one stretch which is quite satisfactory for an AEW&C.

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## Gucci Juice

i dont know if i'm right or not

but i think phalcon is more than aewacs...

its an ew 
its a signals intelligence 
its an electronic intelligence 
it also has verification systems to confirm what the radar saw
it has like 100 antennas other than the radar
its a complete aewacs not aew meaning that it doesn't need ground based operators to control airspace while the new phalcons caews is just an aew justifying its small size

btw all of these are "i think"

i think there are some articles on them just dont feel like finding them.


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## blain2

Gucci Juice said:


> i dont know if i'm right or not
> 
> but i think phalcon is more than aewacs...
> 
> its an ew
> its a signals intelligence
> its an electronic intelligence
> it also has verification systems to confirm what the radar saw
> it has like 100 antennas other than the radar
> its a complete aewacs not aew meaning that it doesn't need ground based operators to control airspace while the new phalcons caews is just an aew justifying its small size
> 
> btw all of these are "i think"
> 
> i think there are some articles on them just dont feel like finding them.



Same deal with Erieye. Most don't realize the capabilities afforded by Erieye and tend to discount it based on biases towards Phalcon. The reality is different. PAF burnt a lot of midnight oil trying to figure out if the Erieye was going to be worth it or not and in the end got what they wanted from SAAB.

Don't find the articles because those are the exact amateur articles that tend to suggest that Phalcon is better because its bigger and more expensive. The only point they offer is the absolute range of the Phalcon for early detection. That is hardly the only factor to be considered in the evaluation of modern AEW&CS platforms.

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## Munir




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## Munir

Ok, let us focus on detection range only:






Anyone same for data for:

Phalcon?

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## blain2

Funny enough, in the graphic the aircraft shown to represent "fighter aircraft" is a Su-30


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## Keysersoze

Yeah but isn't the standard fighter sized target 1metre sqaure? the su-30 is at the least 3m2 if not larger


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## sancho

Blain2, I have to say he is right!
I tried to get more infos about the Phalcon and the Erieye system, to understand what the differences are and as Gucci Juice said it seems to be the intelligence gathering capability!

PAF will getting the 5 Saab 2000 AEW&C right? But Saab also offers the Saab 2000 Sigstar, which is an spy aircraft specially for signal-, comunications- and electronic signals- intelligence missions!

http://www.saabgroup.com/NR/rdonlyr...ECA8/7511/Saab_2000_ERIEYE_AEWC_Datasheet.pdf

http://www.saabgroup.com/NR/rdonlyr...14DFECA8/7512/Saab_2000_SIGSTAR_Datasheet.pdf

Wiki definition: Signals intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brazilian Embraer which uses the same Erieye system on their aircrafts also have 2 versions:
EMB 145 AEW&C
Embraer Defense Systems

EMB 145 MULTI INTEL
Embraer Defense Systems

You said that the Phalcon has a bit more detection range, but what I also found out is that it offers full 360° detection. The Saab 2000 Erieye (and all other aircrafts with similar radar on top systems) offers the full detection range only to 300° as the following video and article shows:

Erieye AEW&C Airborne Early Warning & Control mission system radar (Sweden) - Jane's Avionics


> Typical detection range against fighter-sized targets is approximately 350 km, in a 150° broadside sector, both sides of the aircraft. Outside these sectors, performance is reduced in forward and aft directions






Also in the same article it is mentioned that:


> It is understood that Erieye has some ability to detect aircraft in the 30° sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, but has no track capability in this sector.



To make it clear, it's not my intention to blame the Erieye system!
But the Phalcon system seems to offer all important intelligence gathering features in a single aircraft and in combination with the better platforms (the rotodome and the aircraft) it gives some advantages to IAF.

More infos to the Phalcon system:

Phalcon airborne early warning system (Israel) - Jane's C4I Systems

Phalcon Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW & C) radar (Israel) - Jane's Radar And Electronic Warfare Systems

Phalcon


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## mean_bird

Saab Erieye has full 360&#176; Azimuth coverage. Its been posted here quite a few time from the official saab 2000 brochure.

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## blain2

Keysersoze said:


> Yeah but isn't the standard fighter sized target 1metre sqaure? the su-30 is at the least 3m2 if not larger



I believe its 5m2 (Su-30) but the graphic just shows a supposed aircraft. I am sure when they tested out the Erieye's performance in Sweden against fighter sized aircraft, I would think they were probably using calculations for some platform in the Swedish inventory like Gripen/Viggen which are considerably smaller than the Flankers.


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## HAIDER

Some interesting comments about Saab and SU30..(mostly Indian comments)



> AWACS carries lot of passive intelligence systems along with its active radar and these passive systems can detect at almost twice the range of radar. Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C able to incorporate high-speed dash with low-speed loitering capability, with inherent fuel efficiency that meets demanding AEW&C requirements for performing a 180-degree turn in less than 30 seconds with an endurance of more than 9 hours. It carries self protection system not to forget the fighter escort. Pakistan's aircraft has five on-board operator stations, versus three on modified EMB-145s and Sweden's two upgraded Saab 340s, a service ceiling of over 30,000ft (9,150m) and a mission endurance of 9.5h. It carriesSaab HES-21 electronic warfare suite comprising laser, radar and missile approach warners and countermeasures dispensers.Erieye radar provides 150 Deg coverage to each side of its conformal array.Saab-2000 AEW&C uses new-generation radar transmit/receive modules with 60% higher output allowing Saab-2000 AEW&C to have increased the AEW range of over basic Erieye design.
> And india dont have R-37





> Some additional information about the Saab 2000 AEW&C
> Virtually all of the radar components have been replaced since the Erieye was first fielded in 1996, and all of the computer systems are COTS-based for cost-effective and rapid upgrade. Power output is around 20 percent greater than it was previously, although power requirements, and thus cooling, for the mission system have decreased by 30 percent. The effects of improvement can also be seen in a 53-percent reduction in system weight and 78-percent reduction in floor space. At the same time, computing power has increased a hundredfold.Backing up the radar is a sophisticated Saab Avitronics HES-21 ESM/protection suite that uses interferometer antennas and digital receivers for highly accurate tracking and ranging of emitters. HES-21 data is fused with that from the radar to provide detailed tracking, and it can generate its own tracks at ranges greater than that possible with the radar. The system also includes a comprehensive self-protection function, automatically controlling the launch of chaff and flares.Although the aircraft are pre-owned, structural life is not a factor. The airliner was designed with an initial structural life of 75,000 hours, and on average, the fleet has used less than 20 percent. Based on typical use rates, the remaining life of the AEW&C is more than 35 years, with options for further re-lifting. Another point to be noted is the fact that Saab 2000 AEW&C will be operating at higher altitude then the Saab 340 AEW&C allowing it to detect over the horizon targets at longer ranges.





> My dear friend, N011M ables to engage only 4 missiles continuously, besides r-37's range is not 300 km., a sukhoi can be tracked by AWACS at a range 300 km. & the enemy will get enough time to counter(by SAM or fighters) sukhoi. In maximum times when AWACS gets threat signal it changes it's location
> ==============================================
> su30 sees AWACS from 500km ,and yes r37 has range of 300km and how long it takes to fire 6 r37 ,and yes there will be more su30 to fight with fighters defending AWACS besides 10 su30
> carrying r37
> 
> besides 6 r37 which weigh 4200kg su30 still has roome to carry upto 4 r77+2 r73
> and if fighters defending AWACS come to counter those su30 which carry r37 then su30 still can engage them with r77 or r73
> 
> and if AWACS changes its location it can't out run r37 which is coming towards it at mach 6
> 
> su30 can engage 4 targets means it can 3 targets with two r37 per target
> 
> now if 20 missiles fired at each awacs and even 3-4 survive after heavy jamming and countermeasure it will make kill
> 
> for the same reason su30 carry more missiles with different types of seekers so that it can fire more missiles per threat to increase kill
> kill probability
> 
> 
> my main point is number matters because there are various counter countermeasures nowdays and to increase kill probablity against these EW systems one needs to fire more missiles per target





> First of all let me say that currently uses NIIP N011M Bars passive electronically scanned array radar and it was speculated that SU-30MKI might start using the passive phased array Radar Irbis-E by 2010 for new build aircraft and later on current aircraft will be updated with IRBIS-E but now another option of AESA is explored for last batch of SU-30MKI
> Maximally effective detection range for No-11M :
> a. 245 km for RCS = 10 m2 target (F-15, Su-27)
> b. 137 km for RCS = 1m2 target (F-16, MIG-29 SMT)
> c. 78 km for RCS = 0.1m2 target (F/A-18 E/F, Rafale)
> d. 45 km for RCS = 0.01 m2 target (NG stealthy cruise missies)
> e. 25~30 km for RCS = 0.001~0.002 m2 target (F-35 A/B/C)
> f. 14~21 km for RCS = 0.0001~0.0005 m2 target (F/A-22)
> And these ranges will decrease in lookdown shoot down mode
> In simple words, as Type99 have said that there is too many things going on and these cant be handled by the just two man who have to control and navigate the aircraft and its weapons too. Phalcon Airborne Early Warning radar can stay in air for up to 10 hours without any need for air to air refueling due to improved engines and can hold radar that provides 360 deg coverage and lot of processing power and space for dozen or more operator with individual workstations. Beside radar Phalcon also have ECM and intelligence capabilities through passive means. It has rest area and basic facilities for the crew that cant be matched by the Su-30MKI
> So basically what su-30 offers is a very basic capability of forward controller incase a true AEW&C is not present and has no match for the capabilities of a AEW&C.


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## blain2

sancho said:


> Blain2, I have to say he is right!
> I tried to get more infos about the Phalcon and the Erieye system, to understand what the differences are and as Gucci Juice said it seems to be the intelligence gathering capability!
> 
> PAF will getting the 5 Saab 2000 AEW&C right? But Saab also offers the Saab 2000 Sigstar, which is an spy aircraft specially for signal-, comunications- and electronic signals- intelligence missions!
> 
> http://www.saabgroup.com/NR/rdonlyr...ECA8/7511/Saab_2000_ERIEYE_AEWC_Datasheet.pdf
> 
> http://www.saabgroup.com/NR/rdonlyr...14DFECA8/7512/Saab_2000_SIGSTAR_Datasheet.pdf
> 
> Wiki definition: Signals intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Brazilian Embraer which uses the same Erieye system on their aircrafts also have 2 versions:
> EMB 145 AEW&C
> Embraer Defense Systems
> 
> EMB 145 MULTI INTEL
> Embraer Defense Systems
> 
> You said that the Phalcon has a bit more detection range, but what I also found out is that it offers full 360&#176; detection. The Saab 2000 Erieye (and all other aircrafts with similar radar on top systems) offers the full detection range only to 300&#176; as the following video and article shows:
> 
> Erieye AEW&C Airborne Early Warning & Control mission system radar (Sweden) - Jane's Avionics
> 
> MDv2ABV6KHg[/media] - Embraer EMB145 ERIEYE vs BOEING 737 AEW&C AWACs
> Also in the same article it is mentioned that:
> 
> 
> To make it clear, it's not my intention to blame the Erieye system!
> But the Phalcon system seems to offer all important intelligence gathering features in a single aircraft and in combination with the better platforms (the rotodome and the aircraft) it gives some advantages to IAF.
> 
> More infos to the Phalcon system:
> 
> Phalcon airborne early warning system (Israel) - Jane's C4I Systems
> 
> Phalcon Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW & C) radar (Israel) - Jane's Radar And Electronic Warfare Systems
> 
> Phalcon



Erieye provides 360 degree coverage and no less than SAAB brochure states that (as has Mean Bird pointed that out above).

See the following to get a better appreciation of what SAAB 2000 is capable of. It is the most capable system produced by SAAB as of yet. In the PAF service, one of its dedicated tasks is to supplant our DA-20 ELINT platforms. The SAAB 2000 is fully capable of SigInt and ELINT operations with DRFM etc.



> The first Saab Erieye 2000 AEW aircraft is currently undergoing flight testing in Grenada, Spain and expected to continue throughout the fall of this year. This is the lead of five aircraft ordered by Pakistan. Two similar aircraft have also been offered to Thailand, the first has already been ordered together with the first six Gripens, while the second is included as an option with six additional fighters, replacing aging F-5s. Previously, similar configurations were used with the Saab 340 and Embraer 145. Saab is currently promoting the longer, more spacious Saab 2000 platform for a wide range of special missions, as an attractive, cost effective solution for airborne early warning (AEW) missions.
> (more...)
> 
> 
> Saab 340 carries an Erieye AEW radar, in service with the Swedish Air Force. Photo: Saab
> According to Matthew Smith, Director of Marketing &#8211; Airborne Surveillance Arena at Saab, these special mission platforms are derivatives of the regional airliner, including the Saab 340 and the larger Saab 2000 platform, which provides more spacious cabins, long-range and persistence at an affordable cost. The company proposes the smaller Saab 340 as Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) search missions, while the larger Saab 2000 is better positioned for longer range MPA, as an AEW, carrying the dorsal Erieye radar and ESM A close-up depicting the superstucture carrying the Erieye radar system installed on the Saab 2000 aircraft destined for teh Pakistani Air Force. Photo: Defense Updatesystem. The Saab 2000 is also positioned to carry signal Surveillance, Targeting, Acquisition and Reconnaissance (SIGSTAR) mission.
> 
> The Saab 2000 platform has a cruising speed of 370 knots, it can climb to an altitude of 20,000 ft in 10 minutes, reaching operating area 1,000 nautical miles afar within three hours. It can operate from high altitude airfields, taking off with maximum load and fuel even at hot temperature. Flight safety is maintained throughout all flight conditions, including single engine operations, where the aircraft can maintain altitude at 20,000 ft. To extend mission endurance, Saab packed an extra fuel tank at the rear section of the cabin. For example, in the MPA and SIGnal Surveillance, Targeting, Acquisition, Reconnaissance (SIGSTAR) missions, the Saab 2000 platform can operate at a maximum range exceeding 2000 nautical miles, on a mission endurance exceeding 9.5 hours. The MPA aircraft can carry out a mission covering a 200 nm Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) for 5.5 hours at an altitude of 2,000 ft. The Saab 340 MPA can operate on shorter missions lasting 3.5 hours. It's maximum range exceeds 1,300 nm and endurance is about 7 hours. In the SIGSTAR mission, the aircraft becomes operational immediately after takeoff, performing COMINT, ELINT, ESM missions supported by real-time analysis or offline analysis both onboard and on the ground.
> 
> An Erieye radar fitted onto the Embraer 145 is in service with the Brazilian and Hellenic air forces. Photo: EMbraer
> 
> *The Erieye 2000 AEW aircraft is designed as a more capable aircraft, compared to past generation Erieye. The improved radar can detect smaller targets, including hovering helicopters. The system also uses Identification, Friend /Foe (IFF) system, Electronic Support Measures (ESM) and Automatic Identification System (AIS) which all integrate into a complete surveillance system. The defensive suite is also integrated with the sensors, and comprises of Self Protection System, Missile Approach Warning (MAW) and Laser Approach Warning (LAW) sensors controlling chaff and flare countermeasures.*
> 
> The radar, mounted on the dorsal superstructure is the main sensor of the Erieye system. Operating in AEW missions from an altitude of about 8,000 meters, Erieye can detect targets at distances beyond to 400 km, including aircraft, surface vessels, and even cruise missiles and other low radar cross-section (RCS) targets flying at 200 km range. Surface naval targets can be detected at a range of 300 km.
> 
> The cabin accommodates five operator consoles, which can share the operational picture with ground-bound control system via communications and tactical datalink. The spacious cabin has accommodations for rest area and a galley. It also houses a large fuel tank which provides for the extended range and endurance performance of the aircraft. Mission training, planning and debriefing systems are also integrated into the system.
> 
> Saab expects to use commercial Saab 2000 aircraft to be converted to special missions, as some of the 58 platforms currently in service are scheduled for major overhaul or modification. Although the company claims the system can be accommodated in other platforms, and has installed the radar on Embraer's EMB-145, the recently announced alliance between the Brazilian company and India's Defense Research & Development Organization (DRDO) to develop AEW aircraft based on Embraer's special-mission aircraft platforms leaves little for future cooperation with Saab.
> 
> According to Smith, commercially operated Saab 2000 aircraft have flown about 25&#37; of their life expectancy, leaving 30-35 years of remaining special-mission life span on average. Preparing a platform for the special mission role requires significant modification lasting 6-8 months, including engine refurbishment in cases new engines are introduced, structural strengthening as required, bonded and anodized corrosion protection at manufacture ensures continued corrosion protection in salty environments for maritime operations. Aircraft are also installed with self protection systems (chaff dispenser and ESM pod on each wingtip and chaff/flare dispensers at the belly. Auxiliary power unit and cooling systems are installed at the aft section. The main sensors are located at the belly (MPA) or dorsal superstructure (Erieye) which requires the most significant changes, such as the additional superstructure installation for the Erieye platforms, involving dorsal, tail and wing strengthening, wingtip pods installations, and installations of self protection systems in the wingtip, nose belly and on the engine cowling.

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## mean_bird

Keysersoze said:


> Yeah but isn't the standard fighter sized target 1metre sqaure? the su-30 is at the least 3m2 if not larger



I believe the Su-30 has an RCS of 10-15m². F-15 (older ones) have an RCS of 15m² while F-16 has an RCS of 1.2m²

I think standard fighter size is considered 3m² by most people.


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## SQ8

The RCS you refer to are fully loaded for the F-15 and flanker series and a clean (no stores) for the F-16. Add missiles, pods to the viper. and the return grows exponentially.


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## sancho

blain2 said:


> Erieye provides 360 degree coverage and no less than SAAB brochure states that (as has Mean Bird pointed that out above).
> 
> See the following to get a better appreciation of what SAAB 2000 is capable of. It is the most capable system produced by SAAB as of yet. In the PAF service, one of its dedicated tasks is to supplant our DA-20 ELINT platforms. The SAAB 2000 is fully capable of SigInt and ELINT operations with DRFM etc.


I know that site and it was the reason how I came to know about those Saab 2000 Sigstar aircrafts. 


> In the SIGSTAR mission, the aircraft becomes operational immediately after takeoff, performing COMINT, ELINT, ESM missions supported by real-time analysis or offline analysis both onboard and on the ground.


Please check the datasheets from the official saab site that I gave and you will see that there is an AEW&C version and an intelligence version. IFF, AIS and ESM are stated there too, but only the Sigstar version has SigInt and ELINT features!
About the degree of detection, as it is statet in Jane's the Erieye has some ability to detect in front and back directions, but not the same as it has to the sides and specially not to track.


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## blain2

sancho said:


> I know that site and it was the reason how I came to know about those Saab 2000 Sigstar aircrafts.
> 
> Please check the datasheets from the official saab site that I gave and you will see that there is an AEW&C version and an intelligence version. IFF, AIS and ESM are stated there too, but only the Sigstar version has SigInt and ELINT features!
> About the degree of detection, as it is statet in Jane's the Erieye has some ability to detect in front and back directions, but not the same as it has to the sides and specially not to track.



I am aware of the Sigstar variant and while I cannot prove it to you that what Pakistan is getting has considerable ELINT capabilities, but it is a big enough clue to realize that Erieyes will be undertaking a role that is currently the purview of dedicated ELINT platforms in the PAF. There is a difference between a platform not having any or some capabilities to conduct ELINT missions. Erieye can do quite a bit of the ELINT work.

Secondly JANES is wrong because their information is not always on the dot. They have folks who search around and write articles (I know first hand all the mistakes they make with regards to articles they write about Pakistan). I am showing you a data sheet released by SAAB - the manufacturer, which clearly states 360 degree azimuth coverage and you are still arguing about JANES. Not sure why its so hard for people to see things as the manufacturer describes them? Here is another link that confirms 360 degree coverage:EMB-145 Erieye Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft - Air Force Technology

The 150 degree detection that has been oft-repeated was the case with the older platforms delivered to Swedish AF. Pakistan's key requirement was for full 360 detection and on-board operators to eliminate the need to transmit to ground stations for relaying to other nodes. Both requirements have been met by SAAB.

Secondly, ComInt/SigInt can be looked at in many different ways. All AEW&C platforms have some SigInt and considerable ELINT capabilities. However there are always dedicated aircraft whose sole purpose is to perform Sigint roles. The US can afford to fly dedicated SigINT/ComINT platforms like RC-135 Rivet Joint which do nothing but perform these roles. This particular capability does not take anything away from the primary mission of the Early Warning platforms which is to give a proactive situational awareness to defence planners. On this count, Erieye does a job just as good as any other contemporary AEW systems available on the market.

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## sancho

blain2 said:


> Erieye can do quite a bit of the ELINT work.


You are right about that I found some more pages of that datasheet and it says that the ESM includes some basic ELINT capabilities.

Saab+2000+AEW+&+C-7.JPG (image)
But still to gather more or all intelligence infos you need Saab Sigstar, or Emb Multiintell, that's why I said the main advantage of IAF Phalcon is that it combine that all in a single aircraft.


blain2 said:


> Secondly JANES is wrong because their information is not always on the dot. They have folks who search around and write articles (I know first hand all the mistakes they make with regards to articles they write about Pakistan). I am showing you a data sheet released by SAAB - the manufacturer, which clearly states 360 degree azimuth coverage and you are still arguing about JANES. Not sure why its so hard for people to see things as the manufacturer describes them? Here is another link that confirms 360 degree
> 
> The 150 degree detection that has been oft-repeated was the case with the older platforms delivered to Swedish AF. Pakistan's key requirement was for full 360 detection and on-board operators to eliminate the need to transmit to ground stations for relaying to other nodes. Both requirements have been met by SAAB.


As I said before, Jane is not saying that the Erieye don't has 360° detection, *but that the full detection rate (300 - 400 Km) might only be right for 150° to both sides.* 
Let's see it logically, the radar on top is clearly oriented to both sides. There are no extra radars to the front and the back, like you can see it on the Gulfstream AEW&Cs with Phalcon radar:

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=25153

So logically if there is some detection in these aeras, they can't be as capable as to the sides!
That's why I tend to believe Jane's, also it is not the only source that claims that this.
(Btw this source also exlains that 150° is the improved version!)

Saab 2000 AEW&C prepares for duty: AINonline


> The Saab 2000 AEW&C is the latest iteration of the Saab Microwave Systems Erieye concept. The five-operator system has increased command and control capabilities, including the Swedish Link-E system.
> 
> The radar itself, which consists of 192 transmit/receive modules, has been improved with an extended early warning mode and the ability to spot hovering helicopters. *Coverage has been increased to two 150-degree sectors (from 120-degrees,* still with a 1-degree beamwidth), with range out to the horizon (typically 199 to 217 miles).



This source makes a comparison of AWE&Cs systems, but even though they talk about the older Erieye system (120° instead of 150°) it says the same.

AEW&C - Phased Array Technology Parts 1 & 2


> *The limitation of the two sided array is that it can only cover two 120 degree sectors abeam of the aircraft, leaving 60 degree blind sectors over the nose and tail of the aircraft,* and reduced antenna performance from 45 degrees off the beam aspect.



Saab scans AEW market for new Erieye buyers


> The aircraft's fuselage has been strengthened to carry the Erieye radar, while its vertical tail has been extended to compensate for the payload, *which provides 150e_SDgr coverage to each side of its conformal array*.



So far Erieye looks to me like a good AEW&C system, even I am still not sure about the 150° detection point, but it offers not so much capabilities like the Phalcon systems.


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## Arsalan

well for me the bottom line is that PAF must have taken all thes points into accounts that even we people know about-- i mean they are surely more professional then we or atleast most of us are!
this hase been become an obvious game plane now, both the nations wait for the other to get something so that they can buy a new tech to counter it! the SAAB deal must have also been made keeping in mind the IAF Su30 and the Phalcons! same is rumored about the IAF MRCA that the delay may have somthing to do with the PAF procurment and PAF wait for the MRCA to be finalized to decide waht we should go for, it may be only a rumor but surely carry some sense!

regards!


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## circuitbaba

Location of AEW

As par my calculations via Maps and maximum coverage of Pakistani and Indian Air space they should be placed at Mianwali and Khuzdar

Since we r getting 5 each of both Eeriye and ZDK-03 with a range of 450km
The range is confirmed for eeriye while the range for ZDK-03 is assumed
If we get the Hawkeye 2000 AEW on the P-3C then they can be stationed at Ormara or Karachi....to get maximum sea coverage of instrumental 550km APS-145 radar for the Hawkeye.....
Plz note i am not taking abt E-2C ....as par the agreement the same radr will be mounted on P-3C for Pakistan navy..


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## mughaljee

sancho Jee, 
Nice information


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## Stealth



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## MaXimMaRz

circuitbaba said:


> Location of AEW
> 
> As par my calculations via Maps and maximum coverage of Pakistani and Indian Air space they should be placed at Mianwali and Khuzdar
> 
> Since we r getting 5 each of both Eeriye and ZDK-03 with a range of 450km
> The range is confirmed for eeriye while the range for ZDK-03 is assumed
> If we get the Hawkeye 2000 AEW on the P-3C then they can be stationed at Ormara or Karachi....to get maximum sea coverage of instrumental 550km APS-145 radar for the Hawkeye.....
> Plz note i am not taking abt E-2C ....as par the agreement the same radr will be mounted on P-3C for Pakistan navy..


Hi, can you elaborate how you calculated mianwali and khuzdar? is khuzdar for the western front?


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## gambit

sancho said:


> As I said before, Jane is not saying that the Erieye don't has 360° detection, *but that the full detection rate (300 - 400 Km) might only be right for 150° to both sides.*
> Let's see it logically, the radar on top is clearly oriented to both sides. There are no extra radars to the front and the back, like you can see it on the Gulfstream AEW&Cs with Phalcon radar:
> 
> http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=25153
> 
> So logically if there is some detection in these aeras, they can't be as capable as to the sides!
> That's why I tend to believe Jane's, also it is not the only source that claims that this.
> (Btw this source also exlains that 150° is the improved version!)
> 
> Saab 2000 AEW&C prepares for duty: AINonline
> 
> 
> This source makes a comparison of AWE&Cs systems, but even though they talk about the older Erieye system (120° instead of 150°) it says the same.
> 
> AEW&C - Phased Array Technology Parts 1 & 2
> 
> 
> Saab scans AEW market for new Erieye buyers
> 
> 
> So far Erieye looks to me like a good AEW&C system, even I am still not sure about the 150° detection point, but it offers not so much capabilities like the Phalcon systems.


In order to have a better understanding of why there is such a limitation on this system, there must be an understanding of basic phase array operation...






In a phase array antenna, each transmit-receive (TR) element is essentially a miniature radar antenna. The antenna computer then modulate individual TR power output and the entire system exploit the wave superposition principle to effect beamforming and to move or electronically 'sweep' the main beam.

Superposition of Waves

The above link illustrate basic wave superposition operations.

If a single element is out of phase, even for a microsecond, or its power output is not as responsive as its brethens for any reason, the mainbeam at the very least will contain noise, or possibly malformed at certain sweep angle, or not as narrow as needed, and many other types of beam forming and control errors. It is better that the degraded element be disabled than to allow operation hence continuously having a negative impact on overall radar operation. With the wave superposition principle in play, the more TR elements there are in an array, the narrower the main beam and greater precision, or finesse, in beam control. Array elements choreography -- softwares -- can make or break an entire design, regardless of how well the hardwares were manufactured.

For a phase array antenna, when the main beam (or lobe) is 'swept' near either extreme ends, its sidelobes, and sidelobes are inevitable, begins to be compressed against the main lobe, effectively 'contaminating' or 'jamming' the main lobe, making target acquistion, tracking and targeting difficult. There is a direct relationship between array element counts, antenna size and freq employed. Radar engineers, particularly phase array antenna engineers, prefers high ghz freqs as these bands offers tighter main beams but at the expense of detection range. Once basic array operations are understood, one can easily see why for a two-sided array system like the _Ericsson Erieye_ there are two 60deg blind spots, front and rear of the aircraft and why it is difficult to ascertain the validity of any claim above the 120deg practical electronic scan limits, like the Saab 340 system so claimed. Such an increase is not impossible, but until the client performed full tests under 'real world' conditions and analyze the data for himself, the client should be wary of any claim above 120deg.

Mr. Kopp did not elaborate on the advantages of an active array over the passive one. Not his fault as the article was not about those differences...

AEW&C - Phased Array Technology Parts 1 & 2


> Another powerful feature which may be exploited only in active arrays, is the ability to control the gain of the individual transmit/receive/shifter modules.


Control, not merely of gain, of individual elements is an active array's greatest asset. For a passive array antenna, the system can only produce *ONE* transmit beam.

Assuming a typical two-dimensional system like that of a passive array. However, for an active array system...






a - The entire array is used to produce a single beam that is narrow in azimuth and elevation. A PESA system can only do this.

Here comes the good parts...With a couple of techniques called 'subarray partitioning' and 'spatial interleaving'...

b - Two independent arrays, each with half power and narrow. The black dots are elements that are on a different freq than the crossed elements. One can be for azimuth search, the other for elevation search. More detailed target resolutions for multiple targets than (a). Combat is imminent.

c - There are nine beams created by this partitioning scheme. The black dots are two narrow elevation beams and one narrow azimuth beam and are for general and detailed multiple targets search, especially if any of those targets are low altitude and slow or not moving targets like helos. The other six beams can be used for communication, ECM, data relays between friendly forces, etc...This partitioning scheme is useful for ships like the AEGIS system. Combat is underway.

d - Six individual beams. Each sufficiently narrow in azimuth and elevation. Useful against several targets. Practically jam-proof as each beam can employ frequency agility, pulse repition freq/amplitude/phase jittering and mono-pulse targeting solution. Each beam can also act as communication, data relays or ECM, depending on situation. Combat is underway and this is where an F-22, or any US fighter equipped with an AESA system, will shoot down several opponents, probably of Russian and/or Chinese junks, without them knowing their death warrants have been signed.

With multiple beams, each can be swept in direction independent of its brethens. Subarray partitioning is not for the faint of programming skills and low manufacturing technology base, especially if the intent is to install such a system into a small vehicle like a fighter aircraft where power supply and cooling are critical. This is why the Russians and the Chinese are at least one generation behind the US, even if they managed to roll out an AESA system that can be fitted into a fighter. The US is already installing AESA systems into older fighters like the F-15 and F-18.

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## hj786

gambit said:


> Subarray partitioning is not for the faint of programming skills


I talked to a guy who was on the team that developed the Blue Vixen radar. He told me that one of the programming geniuses wrote his own word processing program in 3 days.


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## Contrarian

Blain, you have to put extra value on real estate, considering that real estate on something like AWACS provides enhanced processing abilities.

One of the primary differences in mentioned long back. That Phalcon has a lot more processing capability including sigint/elint compared to the Erieye. You would agree im sure that all that extra room is not for providing larger beds and washrooms to the crew. There more hardware, including a bigger radar.


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## s90

^bigger radar means more range?


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## gambit

malaymishra123 said:


> Blain, you have to put extra value on *real estate, considering that real estate on something like AWACS provides enhanced processing abilities.*
> 
> One of the primary differences in mentioned long back. That Phalcon has a lot more processing capability including sigint/elint compared to the Erieye. You would agree im sure that all that extra room is not for providing larger beds and washrooms to the crew. There more hardware, including a bigger radar.


True...But when it comes to aircrafts, unused space is wasted space and engineers hates waste, even though often empty space must be left as is due to other considerations such as weight-balances.

For example...Cooperative Engagement Capabilities...

Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC) / AN/USG-2(V) Cooperative Engagement Transmission Processing Set

Here is the miniaturization of processing power in the development of CEC...







From 9300lbs down to little more than 500lbs to do the same thing. So what to do with all that empty space? How about making the aircrafts more versatile with other tasks? With any land based system, either make the land based facility more capable or make the system mobile. For the airborne system, either move the system to a smaller aircraft to make the system more survivable, less expensive to produce hence more of the system deployable on many of these smaller aircrafts, or make the existing aircraft that is carrying the system more versatile such as ECM or even cargo delivery for all we know. It is a tough decision and once it is made money will be allocated, contracts issued, training begin and there is still no guarantee that the enemy or potential enemy will come up with something superior.

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## gambit

s90 said:


> ^bigger radar means more range?


%99.999 of the time...Yes. Frequency also matter. Long range search radar operate in the mhz bands and this is what they often look like in size...


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## Contrarian

gambit said:


> True...But when it comes to aircrafts, unused space is wasted space and engineers hates waste, even though often empty space must be left as is due to other considerations such as weight-balances.
> 
> For example...Cooperative Engagement Capabilities...
> 
> Here is the miniaturization of processing power in the development of CEC...
> 
> 
> From 9300lbs down to little more than 500lbs to do the same thing. So what to do with all that empty space? How about making the aircrafts more versatile with other tasks? With any land based system, either make the land based facility more capable or make the system mobile. For the airborne system, either move the system to a smaller aircraft to make the system more survivable, less expensive to produce hence more of the system deployable on many of these smaller aircrafts, or make the existing aircraft that is carrying the system more versatile such as ECM or even cargo delivery for all we know. It is a tough decision and once it is made money will be allocated, contracts issued, training begin and there is still no guarantee that the enemy or potential enemy will come up with something superior.



Considering that both Phalcon and Erieye have been ordered recently, the miniaturization difference between the two would be negligible. Thus erieye, cannot pack in the equal capability equipment-due to size factor(of all sorts) as the Phalcon in the SAAB 2000.

As such the points about miniaturization would be valid had Phalcons been operational on the Il-76 for decades, and miniaturization would result in a smaller aircraft being just as capable. Thus the Erieye would be just as capable as the older Phalcon. In our case, both have been ordered in roughly the same timeframes.

In this case then, the engineers would have already planned the effective utilization of the entire Il-76 from the beginning.


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## wangrong

KJ2000

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## King Julien

pDh9BiLZRBk[/media] - ERIEYE Surveillance System Extending your horizon

great video, Erieye system seems to be impressive

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## blain2

malaymishra123 said:


> Considering that both Phalcon and Erieye have been ordered recently, the miniaturization difference between the two would be negligible. Thus erieye, cannot pack in the equal capability equipment-due to size factor(of all sorts) as the Phalcon in the SAAB 2000.
> 
> As such the points about miniaturization would be valid had Phalcons been operational on the Il-76 for decades, and miniaturization would result in a smaller aircraft being just as capable. Thus the Erieye would be just as capable as the older Phalcon. In our case, both have been ordered in roughly the same timeframes.
> 
> In this case then, the engineers would have already planned the effective utilization of the entire Il-76 from the beginning.



I think you have drawn a massive generalization to come to the conclusion that Phalcon has more equipment thus it needed a bigger platform. First of all, you have to see the overall layout of the Phalcon (IL-76) to know where the equipment is stored and how much it is. It is certainly not a plane load full. The fact that Israelis are showing off their own Phalcon on a GF550 negates the point that in order to store hardware and the immense amount of equipment, an aircraft the size of IL-76 is necessary. That was your requirement in the past and those were the platforms that you provided and the Israelis obliged with equipping them. 

Secondly, gone are the days of large AEW platforms. None of the future platforms are going to be bigger than 737/commuter sizes. This is certainly possible because the equipment is smaller, more powerful and the platforms are more streamlined than larger bodied aircraft (essentially built as airliners and large cargo aircraft) which were being used to fulfill the AEW role.

The Israelis are planning on having their gulfstream aircraft sustain 9 hour sorties with 6 consoles and as much or more plumbing in place than the IAF IL-76 based Phalcons.

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## sancho

blain2 said:


> I think you have drawn a massive generalization to come to the conclusion that Phalcon has more equipment thus it needed a bigger platform. First of all, you have to see the overall layout of the Phalcon (IL-76) to know where the equipment is stored and how much it is. It is certainly not a plane load full. The fact that Israelis are showing off their own Phalcon on a GF550 negates the point that in order to store hardware and the immense amount of equipment, an aircraft the size of IL-76 is necessary. That was your requirement in the past and those were the platforms that you provided and the Israelis obliged with equipping them.
> 
> Secondly, gone are the days of large AEW platforms. None of the future platforms are going to be bigger than 737/commuter sizes. This is certainly possible because the equipment is smaller, more powerful and the platforms are more streamlined than larger bodied aircraft (essentially built as airliners and large cargo aircraft) which were being used to fulfill the AEW role.
> 
> The Israelis are planning on having their gulfstream aircraft sustain 9 hour sorties with 6 consoles and as much or more plumbing in place than the IAF IL-76 based Phalcons.


Of course you can put the system in smaller aircrafts too, just look at the difference from the israeli 707 Phalcon and now the G550 Phalcon. There are 2 points that still speaks for a bigger aircraft, one that you can carry a rotodome with full detection rate to all sides and I still doubt that the two sided arrays of Erieye, or DRDO AWACS can equal that. Second that you have more space for more equipment like malaymishra123 said, but also for a bigger crew too.
The G550 can do 9h missions, but with a bigger crew on board and air refueling the A50 Phalcon can do much longer missions and if you take the size of India into account, you need a huge number of aircrafts if they had to land every 9 h right? 

Btw, here are some nice inside pics of the IAF Phalcon:

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgu...refox-a&rls=org.mozilla:de:official&sa=N&um=1


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## sancho

King Julien said:


> pDh9BiLZRBk[/media] 8474%2Easpx&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - ERIEYE Surveillance System Extending your horizon
> 
> great video, Erieye system seems to be impressive


Look at the explaination of the radar arrays and the detection range from minute 2:11!
Is it me, or is the radar beam only detecting in the 150&#176; aerea to both sides and not to the front and back and this is a official Saab video!
It's only searching from front right to back right, then switching to the left side to do the same and not a full 360&#176; search.

Here the MESA system on the 737. The interesting part is also the explaination of the radar arrays in minute 2:28!








> These arrays provide 130&#176; of coverage, to the left and right. The tophead...array on top provides 50&#176; of both, forward and aft surveillance


So it has 3 arrays and the *2 on the side provides only 130&#176;* of coverage!


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## Patriot

The Video Mentions three things
1)Equipped with AESA
2) Signal Intelligence Equipment Built IN
3)It can detect Sea as well as air targets.
4)Can rely information to any aircraft, ground station using Link-16.


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## ironman

blain2 said:


> I think you have drawn a massive generalization to come to the conclusion that Phalcon has more equipment thus it needed a bigger platform. First of all, you have to see the overall layout of the Phalcon (IL-76) to know where the equipment is stored and how much it is. It is certainly not a plane load full. The fact that Israelis are showing off their own Phalcon on a GF550 negates the point that in order to store hardware and the immense amount of equipment, an aircraft the size of IL-76 is necessary. That was your requirement in the past and those were the platforms that you provided and the Israelis obliged with equipping them.
> 
> Secondly, gone are the days of large AEW platforms. None of the future platforms are going to be bigger than 737/commuter sizes. This is certainly possible because the equipment is smaller, more powerful and the platforms are more streamlined than larger bodied aircraft (essentially built as airliners and large cargo aircraft) which were being used to fulfill the AEW role.
> 
> The Israelis are planning on having their gulfstream aircraft sustain 9 hour sorties with 6 consoles and as much or more plumbing in place than the IAF IL-76 based Phalcons.



I think you have failed to notice this news *"Sweden is also considering replacing the SAAB 340 Argus with the SAAB 2000 Erieye system, as the larger internal volume of this airframe allows for the installation of additional control consoles and communications equipment  allowing the aircraft to be employed as a much more effective airborne command & control post"*


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## Contrarian

blain2 said:


> I think you have drawn a massive generalization to come to the conclusion that Phalcon has more equipment thus it needed a bigger platform. First of all, you have to see the overall layout of the Phalcon (IL-76) to know where the equipment is stored and how much it is. It is certainly not a plane load full. The fact that Israelis are showing off their own Phalcon on a GF550 negates the point that in order to store hardware and the immense amount of equipment, an aircraft the size of IL-76 is necessary. That was your requirement in the past and those were the platforms that you provided and the Israelis obliged with equipping them.
> 
> Secondly, gone are the days of large AEW platforms. None of the future platforms are going to be bigger than 737/commuter sizes. This is certainly possible because the equipment is smaller, more powerful and the platforms are more streamlined than larger bodied aircraft (essentially built as airliners and large cargo aircraft) which were being used to fulfill the AEW role.
> 
> The Israelis are planning on having their gulfstream aircraft sustain 9 hour sorties with 6 consoles and as much or more plumbing in place than the IAF IL-76 based Phalcons.



Israel has different requirements compared to us. The fact that they are ordering Eitam does not mean that putting the Phalcon on a Gulfstream gives the same amount of capability as one on an Il-76. It depends on the requirements.


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## TOPGUN

King Julien said:


> pDh9BiLZRBk[/media] - ERIEYE Surveillance System Extending your horizon
> 
> great video, Erieye system seems to be impressive



Here a little something for u    don't be negative towards or achivements we arent toward yours lets live in peace and let live in peace good day!


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## King Julien

TOPGUN said:


> Here a little something for u    don't be negative towards or achivements we arent toward yours lets live in peace and let live in peace good day!



lol... well congrats to you.... but your AWACs makes me nervous buddy..... so.... I CONDEMN .... and


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## blain2

malaymishra123 said:


> Israel has different requirements compared to us. The fact that they are ordering Eitam does not mean that putting the Phalcon on a Gulfstream gives the same amount of capability as one on an Il-76. It depends on the requirements.



Malay respond factually if you know what the requirements are. It is not sufficient to state their requirements are different and then walk away assuming the IL-76 carries a whole lot more than anything else on the market. I have yet to see a general overview of the Phalcon layout to see where the goods are stored. At least SAAB and IAI have provided the same for their respect AEW and CAEW platforms.

Thus far all I have seen from the Indian posters is a blind assumption that bigger is better. This was never the case and in the future too most of the AEW solutions will prove otherwise with crew comfort being an exception.

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## TOPGUN

King Julien said:


> lol... well congrats to you.... but your AWACs makes me nervous buddy..... so.... I CONDEMN .... and



Hey listen dont act like a child plzz be respectful you are guest here act like a matture person come with some knowledge other then bashing your comments that don't make sense rather then create tension here for no reason we are getting wat meets our req's and your country is getting wat they req anyhow iam not wasting anymore time on you haters to me are a waste of time


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## blain2

ironman said:


> I think you have failed to notice this news *"Sweden is also considering replacing the SAAB 340 Argus with the SAAB 2000 Erieye system, as the larger internal volume of this airframe allows for the installation of additional control consoles and communications equipment &#8211; allowing the aircraft to be employed as a much more effective airborne command & control post"*



Thanks for bringing it to our attention but I did notice that having read that article/content many times over. This was one of the first few ASRs forwarded to the Swedes by the PAF as their own platform did not have on board operators while PAF wanted these. Larger internal volume is desirable, however how much is the question. Israelis, the Swedes, Australians and Turks among many others are going ahead with much smaller platforms for their AEW capabilities. 

The Israelis have fitted 6 operator consoles on their Gulfstream 550s. An aircraft which is smaller than SAAB 2000. They have mission capabilities that are at least at par (saying that to make you folks at ease) with the IAF Phalcons if not exceeding those of the IAF's IL-76 based Phalcons.

The key is that technology is changing and miniaturization is a natural evolution. As such, bigger does not necessarily mean better in all aspects of AEW performance.

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## King Julien

TOPGUN said:


> Hey listen dont act like a child plzz be respectful you are guest here act like a matture person come with some knowledge other then bashing your comments that don't make sense rather then create tension here for no reason we are getting wat meets our req's and your country is getting wat they req anyhow iam not wasting anymore time on you haters to me are a waste of time



no sir.... please read my posts again..... 
I did acknowledge that erieye system is impressive..... no offense was intended on my part, i request you to read those posts again...


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## blain2

sancho said:


> Of course you can put the system in smaller aircrafts too, just look at the difference from the israeli 707 Phalcon and now the G550 Phalcon. There are 2 points that still speaks for a bigger aircraft, one that you can carry a rotodome with full detection rate to all sides and I still doubt that the two sided arrays of Erieye, or DRDO AWACS can equal that.



Its a static rotodome (as such no moving parts). The same deal with Erieye radar. What matters is the placement of emitters. SAAB *officially* and openly state that they provide full 360 degree coverage for threat assessment on SAAB 2000 Surveillance System. That to me is a more credible statement than all of the nay-sayers who constantly harp on data from Argus days which provided a 150 degree coverage on each side of the dorsal array.


> Second that you have more space for more equipment like malaymishra123 said, but also for a bigger crew too.
> The G550 can do 9h missions, but with a bigger crew on board and air refueling the A50 Phalcon can do much longer missions and if you take the size of India into account, you need a huge number of aircrafts if they had to land every 9 h right?



Crew comfort is a totally different thing. My issue is with the assumption that the bigger size of the aircraft automatically means more equipment thus a better platform. Nobody thus far has provided any concrete evidence of what really requires the airframe of an IL-78 when IDFAF are operating an aircraft which has at least the same (or potentially even more) gadgetry on their Gulfstream jets than the IAF IL-78s. I would be ok if someone told me that we have dual 15000 watt Power Supplies for the ECM equipment etc. etc. that take considerable space but thus far I have seen nothing. 

IAI definitely are not marketing their Phalcon system on the basis of platforms. They will integrate the solution on big, medium and small aircraft (as small as GF550) based on what the customer wants. 



> Btw, here are some nice inside pics of the IAF Phalcon:
> 
> http://images.google.de/imgres?imgu...refox-a&rls=org.mozilla:de:official&sa=N&um=1



Thank you. These do look pretty impressive.

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## Munir

If the Il-78 is such a great platform then why is the first statement of the IAF that they will move to another platform? Bigger doesn't mean better. Saab is king in providing superb SA and if they linki it to ground stations or other assets then it is probably well tested and top tech. Even if the Phalcon is a top machine it is still small system compared to the Ericson... And the huge ground calculation power is a real time asset...


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## ironman

blain2 said:


> Thanks for bringing it to our attention but I did notice that having read that article/content many times over. This was one of the first few ASRs forwarded to the Swedes by the PAF as their own platform did not have on board operators while PAF wanted these. Larger internal volume is desirable, however how much is the question. Israelis, the Swedes, Australians and Turks among many others are going ahead with much smaller platforms for their AEW capabilities.
> 
> The Israelis have fitted 6 operator consoles on their Gulfstream 550s. An aircraft which is smaller than SAAB 2000. They have mission capabilities that are at least at par (saying that to make you folks at ease) with the IAF Phalcons if not exceeding those of the IAF's IL-76 based Phalcons.
> 
> The key is that technology is changing and miniaturization is a natural evolution. As such, bigger does not necessarily mean better in all aspects of AEW performance.



I'm not an expert in this matter but after reading this news "IAF may replace AWACS with 'modern aircraft' in future", I think you have made a good point.


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## blain2

sancho said:


> Look at the explaination of the radar arrays and the detection range from minute 2:11!
> Is it me, or is the radar beam only detecting in the 150&#176; aerea to both sides and not to the front and back and this is a official Saab video!
> It's only searching from front right to back right, then switching to the left side to do the same and not a full 360&#176; search.
> 
> Here the MESA system on the 737. The interesting part is also the explaination of the radar arrays in minute 2:28!
> 
> [url="
> 
> 
> 
> - MESA Surveillance Radar[/url]
> 
> 
> So it has 3 arrays and the *2 on the side provides only 130&#176;* of coverage!



360 degree "coverage" is a confusing term. Erieye does 360 degree detection of targets (the same as MESA) as it has visibility to 30 degrees in aft/fore spheres with certain sensors (ESM and not via the radar arrays themselves). What is supposedly a challenge for Erieye is sustained tracking in the same 30 degree spheres in front/aft. The solution to that is to fly patterns that ensure that the side arrays provide coverage if needed or have a couple of systems fly patterns which provide overlapping coverage for supposed blind spots. I do not think that in a defensive role or one in which the threat is most probably uni-directional, the 360&#176; coverage matters as much, but I think a combination of the radar and ESMs would ensure that Erieye has pretty good SA.

The other point which is unknown is how the architecture of the antenna on top of the Erieye is laid out. If there are tx/rx nodes on the front and aft of the antenna then similar to Wedgetail, Erieye would have considerable insight into the supposed blindspots. I have not seen any indepth documentation on the Erieye aside from the statements by SAAB stating 360 coverage.


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## sancho

blain2 said:


> Crew comfort is a totally different thing. My issue is with the assumption that the bigger size of the aircraft automatically means more equipment thus a better platform.


Crew comfort wasn't my point either, more that the IAF Phalcon can do way longer missions (maybe even 24h) with more personal and air refueling. A smaller platform like EMB 145 can be refueled too, but offers not the space for all the equipment and that much personal, so the mission time is limited by the human factor.
Also if you want a rotodome, you have to go for such a big platform that can carry the weight, or find other solutions (see below).


blain2 said:


> *What matters is the placement of emitters.* SAAB officially and openly state that they provide full 360 degree coverage for threat assessment on SAAB 2000 Surveillance System.





blain2 said:


> 360 degree "coverage" is a confusing term. Erieye does 360 degree detection of targets (the same as MESA) *as it has visibility to 30 degrees in aft/fore spheres with certain sensors *(ESM and not via the radar arrays themselves). What is supposedly a challenge for Erieye is sustained tracking in the same 30 degree spheres in front/aft. The solution to that is to fly patterns that ensure that the side arrays provide coverage if needed or have a couple of systems fly patterns which provide overlapping coverage for supposed blind spots.


EXACTLY and these are the main points to me too!
I believe you that Saab officially said that, but the key point is *how*?
After checking all the sources I posted and the presentations of Erieye, MESA, and Phalcon system(on Gulfstream), it is clear to me now that the key differences are not the systems, but the platforms. The aircrafts and more important the type of radar that is used! 

Saab 2000 Erieye uses only 2 radar arrays to both sides, with a repeatedly quoted coverage of 150°.
The MESA has these side arrays too and like the presentation said gives 130° of coverage. BUT it also has a top radar that covers 50° to front and 50° to the back.
The Phalcon system on the Gulfstream uses 2 side arrays, and 2 arrays to the front and back.
The IAF Phalcon system uses a rotodome to achieve full 360° coverage.

The simple fact that the US and the Israeli system have to use additional radar arrays(or rotodome in IAF Phalcon, or E 3) to achieve 360° coverage should make clear, that the Erieye can't provide the same. Even if they were able to get some detection via sensors like you said (note that not even the official presentation video of Saab shows any scans, or detections to front, or back!), it can't be equal to the detection ranges and capabilities it has to the sides.
Jane's said nearly the same, that Erieye offers SOME detection to those areas, but without tracking capabilities. So the statement of Saab that it has 360° could be ok, but it is doubtful how good the detection to those "blind spots" are without radar arrays.

You might be right that PAF can counter that with flying patterns and more aircrafts, but that is big effort to counter that disadvantage of the radar right?


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## maverick2009

We spent the last 3 Years slating the SU30MKI has being nothing special. 

Now the Phalcon Awacs arive are we about to start the same threads ???

Quiet simply both the induction of nearly 100 su30mki and the first of 3 highly advanced Phalcon Awacs as taken the entire Air capability of the IAF to a completely different plain to previous. 

To date there is no answer even today to SU30MKI from PAF 

And the same is said of the Awacs . Nothing in sight as yet.

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## sancho

maverick2009 said:


> We spent the last 3 Years slating the SU30MKI has being nothing special.
> 
> Now the Phalcon Awacs arive are we about to start the same threads ???
> 
> Quiet simply both the induction of nearly 100 su30mki and the first of 3 highly advanced Phalcon Awacs as taken the entire Air capability of the IAF to a completely different plain to previous.
> 
> To date there is no answer even today to SU30MKI from PAF
> 
> And the same is said of the Awacs . Nothing in sight as yet.



Please maverick, don't start such postings again! This is not about which side has the better AWACS, but to understand and compare those systems. Erieye will suit PAF aswell as the Phalcon will IAF, so no need to blame the other.


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## blain2

maverick2009 said:


> We spent the last 3 Years slating the SU30MKI has being nothing special.
> 
> Now the Phalcon Awacs arive are we about to start the same threads ???
> 
> Quiet simply both the induction of nearly 100 su30mki and the first of 3 highly advanced Phalcon Awacs as taken the entire Air capability of the IAF to a completely different plain to previous.
> 
> To date there is no answer even today to SU30MKI from PAF
> 
> And the same is said of the Awacs . Nothing in sight as yet.



PAF does not need to answer on an aircraft vs. aircraft basis. PAF has plans that are going through their paces to ensure that PAF vs. IAF situation remains the same as in any other past war which is to suggest that IAF will not have air superiority over the Pakistani air space completely. I do not see how this situation changes much given the modernization going on within both Air Forces.

The only difference currently is that PAF's modernization plans are afoot and a lot of the capabilities are being acquired. During this transition period, admittedly things look a bit one sided, but then IAF do not have a lot of their capabilities in place either. There are other ways to counter the current imbalance. But then that is a different issue.

On the last point, at least I have not said that MKI is nothing special. It is a good aircraft for the IAF, but as any other aircraft to be considered from a threat perception standpoint, PAF is doing the same with regards to it and building capabilities which would address its shortcomings (essentially BVR is the only area which requires attention). Other things such as AEW only increase the existing SA. Otherwise PAF is definitely not blind to IAF activity. The TPS-77 grid affords a fairly intrusive insight to the PAF with regards to IAF activities.

What does the 100 strong MKI fleet and Phalcon do to Pakistan when PAF is also equipping with Erieye this calendar year and bringing on BVR equipped aircraft?


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## blain2

sancho said:


> Crew comfort wasn't my point either, more that the IAF Phalcon can do way longer missions (maybe even 24h) with more personal and air refueling. A smaller platform like EMB 145 can be refueled too, but offers not the space for all the equipment and that much personal, so the mission time is limited by the human factor.
> Also if you want a rotodome, you have to go for such a big platform that can carry the weight, or find other solutions (see below).


Again what equipment? Same old points without any factual info.



> EXACTLY and these are the main points to me too!
> I believe you that Saab officially said that, but the key point is *how*?
> After checking all the sources I posted and the presentations of Erieye, MESA, and Phalcon system(on Gulfstream), it is clear to me now that the key differences are not the systems, but the platforms. The aircrafts and more important the type of radar that is used!
> 
> Saab 2000 Erieye uses only 2 radar arrays to both sides, with a repeatedly quoted coverage of 150°.
> The MESA has these side arrays too and like the presentation said gives 130° of coverage. BUT it also has a top radar that covers 50° to front and 50° to the back.
> The Phalcon system on the Gulfstream uses 2 side arrays, and 2 arrays to the front and back.
> The IAF Phalcon system uses a rotodome to achieve full 360° coverage.
> 
> The simple fact that the US and the Israeli system have to use additional radar arrays(or rotodome in IAF Phalcon, or E 3) to achieve 360° coverage should make clear, that the Erieye can't provide the same. Even if they were able to get some detection via sensors like you said (note that not even the official presentation video of Saab shows any scans, or detections to front, or back!), it can't be equal to the detection ranges and capabilities it has to the sides.



The point being what? Do you think that the aircraft becomes blind because it does not have tracking capabilities in 30 degree aft and forward spheres? I would think that if this was a serious enough concern, Erieye would not have had this many buyers. That is something to think about. Secondly, Pakistan had the option of going with full 360 degree coverage on the E-2 solution but decided against it. 



> Jane's said nearly the same, that Erieye offers SOME detection to those areas, but without tracking capabilities. So the statement of Saab that it has 360° could be ok, but it is doubtful how good the detection to those "blind spots" are without radar arrays.



The ESM gear compensates for the fwd/aft spheres. I do not think that it is as considerable an issue as many Indian detractors of Erieye make it out to be (its natural to put down what we have and I understand that).



> You might be right that PAF can counter that with flying patterns and more aircrafts, but that is big effort to counter that disadvantage of the radar right?



That is just an assumption on my part if the ESM coverage of the front and rear spheres is considered to be an issue. The other thing you have to consider is that the benefit of having an AESA capability on the AEW platform is its ability to be focused on specific targets of interest. So the whole issue around a constant need to have a 360 tracking (not detection) capability is also a non-essential capability in my opinion.


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## hj786

The length of a chord
2*AC*sin(BCA/2) = 2 * 350 * sin(2.61799388 / 2) = 676.148079
2*AC*sin(BCA/2) = 2 * 450 * sin(2.61799388 / 2) = 869.333244 

If range is 350 km (under dense EW environment), one Erieye can monitor a straight line (border) ~650 km long. At maximum range 450 km, that goes up to ~800 km. Isn't the border ~1200 km long?

Despite coverage "issues" being talked about by certain posters, the entire border can be monitored easily by only two Erieyes, with overlapping coverage and under a dense EW environment. Claims of lack of coverage are completely unfounded.



maverick2009 said:


> We spent the last 3 Years slating the SU30MKI has being nothing special.
> Now the Phalcon Awacs arive are we about to start the same threads ???
> Quiet simply both the induction of nearly 100 su30mki and the first of 3 highly advanced Phalcon Awacs as taken the entire Air capability of the IAF to a completely different plain to previous.
> *To date there is no answer even today to SU30MKI from PAF *
> And the same is said of the Awacs . Nothing in sight as yet.



To date there is not a single decent post from maverick2009.
Flanker-H is nothing special. TVC doesn't help it dodge the latest TVC missiles. If flanker can be fitted with AESA, so can FC-20 and JF-17. What makes it so special?
PAF's answer of Mirage III/V and F-7 was enough when surgical strikes were being shouted about and it'll be the same story once F-16, Erieye and AMRAAM are in PAF hands, people like you will still be running around on the internet trolling with pointless posts like that one. Erieye, F-16, AMRAAM and Link-16 is in sight and PAF needs nothing more than these to answer the flanker-H.


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## sancho

blain2 said:


> Again what equipment? Same old points without any factual info.


The pics inside of the Phalcon shows nearly double as much consoles as used in smaller Saab 2000, EMB 145, or G550 right? And we know that it combines the AEW&C and intelligence capabilities that normally are in 2 different aircraft. So it must have more space for equipment and crew. Also it uses a rotodome that needs more power compared to Saab 2000, or G550, so it needs also a bigger power supply. 
As you can see on this pic nearly half of the 737 is for equipment of the MESA radar:

Diagram of the internal layout of the Boeing 737 AEW&C, showing location of mission systems and radar. - Image - 737 AEW&C Wedgetail Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft

I agree with you that you can have this capabilities in lower size now, like the G550 Etiam proves (~400+ km detection range, full 360° coverage and all intelligence capabilities), but it still has also only an operation time of 9h, whereas A50, E3 and 737 can do missions up to 24h because of more crew. 
For smaller countries like Israel, or Singapore a number of G550 Phalcons might be enough, but that's why I said you must take the size of India to account. Look at China, Russia, US, EU, or now Turkey, Australia, they all will use bigger systems mainly and add smaller if necessarry. 


blain2 said:


> The point being what? Do you think that the aircraft becomes blind because it does not have tracking capabilities in 30 degree aft and forward spheres?


The point is that this kind of system has a weak point compared to 737 MESA, E3 and G550/A50 Phalcon. Of course it's not completely blind, but less capable of detecting and tracking in these aereas.


blain2 said:


> The ESM gear compensates for the fwd/aft spheres. I do not think that it is as considerable an issue as many Indian detractors of Erieye make it out to be (its natural to put down what we have and I understand that).


I didn't say it to put your system down, but to understand that the DRDO AWACS system that will use the same type of arrays (on EMB 145), will have the same disadvantage! I think the Erieye system on a better platform with more radar arrays could be as capable as the Phalcon system. 


blain2 said:


> That is just an assumption on my part if the ESM coverage of the front and rear spheres is considered to be an issue. The other thing you have to consider is that the benefit of having an AESA capability on the AEW platform is its ability to be focused on specific targets of interest. So the whole issue around a constant need to have a 360 tracking (not detection) capability is also a non-essential capability in my opinion.


But that fousing on targets will be done via the radar arrays, not through sensors, so it remains as an issue right? Also at the moment there is only this statement of Saab that proves there is some detection in front and back, but how capable is it? I mean what kind of targets can you detect in what range? 
As I said before, the fact that they don't even show some detection, or scans in that areas in their own presentation says something don't you think?


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## Patriot

Sancho Operator Station is simply not the issue.Saab Video mentions that if needed Saab can setup more Ground Operator Stations connected to Saab 2000 via Secure DATA16 Link so therefore if we need more then 6 operators then we can setup more ground stations connected to Saab 2000..it offers very good C4I Capability.


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## SBD-3

maverick2009 said:


> To date there is no answer even today to SU30MKI from PAF



you have every right to be happy bro
thanks God you didn't say ambassidor is better than limmo

ok comming to the point of MKI so if you would remeber last violations of IAF into pak airspase it was reported that Falcons had locked the "errorously wondering" MKI with a MIG-29 backing and the MKI bugged out so that should satisfy you that falcons do; lemme make it a little more clear *DO* have the capasity to lock the "invincible" MKI 
oh! and the source was BBC not a pakistani channel I hope you will take it as reliable source

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## Contrarian

Patriot said:


> Sancho Operator Station is simply not the issue.Saab Video mentions that if needed Saab can setup more Ground Operator Stations connected to Saab 2000 via Secure DATA16 Link so therefore if we need more then 6 operators then we can setup more ground stations connected to Saab 2000..it offers very good C4I Capability.



That is a major disadvantage. Read up on the initial posts of this thread. The difference between the amount of processing capabilities b/w SAAB 2000 and the Il-76. Il-76 becomes an independent node in the air, while the SAAB 2000 makes the Erieye ground station dependent for processing.


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## gambit

malaymishra123 said:


> That is a major disadvantage. Read up on the initial posts of this thread. The difference between the amount of processing capabilities b/w SAAB 2000 and the Il-76. Il-76 becomes an independent node in the air, while *the SAAB 2000 makes the Erieye ground station dependent for processing.*


Not necessarily a negative. If your data link is sufficiently robust against interference, and that include deliberate interference, and if it is sufficiently fast with good bandwidth, you can offload those processing burden to the ground station, leaving only scanning. Two or more airborne platforms in this configuration would allow each to concentrate on specific sectors of the sky.


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## Patriot

malaymishra123 said:


> That is a major disadvantage. Read up on the initial posts of this thread. The difference between the amount of processing capabilities b/w SAAB 2000 and the Il-76. Il-76 becomes an independent node in the air, while the SAAB 2000 makes the Erieye ground station dependent for processing.


Nope, this is not correct.You need to watch Saab Official video.It has 6 onboard stations which can act independently however if customer wants more stations they can set those on ground so in addition to those 6 operation stations you get more.It can OPTIONALLY Be connected to ground station to create a main C4I system.

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## Contrarian

gambit said:


> Not necessarily a negative. If your data link is sufficiently robust against interference, and that include deliberate interference, and if it is sufficiently fast with good bandwidth, you can offload those processing burden to the ground station, leaving only scanning. Two or more airborne platforms in this configuration would allow each to concentrate on specific sectors of the sky.



Necessarily a negative per me mate. The difference is whether you 'choose to' use the ground stations or whether you 'have to' beyond a certain amount.


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## Contrarian

Patriot said:


> Nope, this is not correct.You need to watch Saab Official video.It has 6 onboard stations which can act independently however if customer wants more stations they can set those on ground so in addition to those 6 operation stations you get more.It can OPTIONALLY Be connected to ground station to create a main C4I system.



I got you in the first go. If PAF wants more stations, ground stations can be setup. More likely than not, no additional stations would be needed. My point was about the need for it, considering bigger platforms offer all that plus more.


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## Munir



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## blain2

sancho said:


> But that fousing on targets will be done via the radar arrays, not through sensors, so it remains as an issue right? Also at the moment there is only this statement of Saab that proves there is some detection in front and back, but how capable is it? I mean what kind of targets can you detect in what range?
> As I said before, the fact that they don't even show some detection, or scans in that areas in their own presentation says something don't you think?



Only would be an issue if the flight path is linear. The SAAB 2000's short 180 degree turns are not advertised without reason.

As I have said, lacking specific information about the two systems, its hard to even contemplate that Erieye users would be impacted by the fore/aft tracking issues that are of a nature which would severely impact operational performance. All that has been discussed is based on general specs which are neither conclusive nor very detailed.

I guess we will have to see what the experiences of the two air forces are as they deploy the systems. I think both sides have done enough homework for them to be able to use these systems effectively. In the past even lesser capable systems have been put to greater usage than what these new platforms afford to the two air forces.

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## blain2

Patriot said:


> Sancho Operator Station is simply not the issue.Saab Video mentions that if needed Saab can setup more Ground Operator Stations connected to Saab 2000 via Secure DATA16 Link so therefore if we need more then 6 operators then we can setup more ground stations connected to Saab 2000..it offers very good C4I Capability.



There are quite a few other benefits of the SAAB system as well in comparison to the Phalcon. In due time people will read about them.


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## blain2

malaymishra123 said:


> That is a major disadvantage. Read up on the initial posts of this thread. The difference between the amount of processing capabilities b/w SAAB 2000 and the Il-76. Il-76 becomes an independent node in the air, while the SAAB 2000 makes the Erieye ground station dependent for processing.



No it does not. The SAAB 2000 is a full-fledged AEW system. It does not require a ground relay station which was a requirement for the Swedish Air Force's Argus solution because they did not have on-board consoles. The versions in use with the Hellenic Air Force and the one to be deployed by the PAF does not require any consoles on the ground. The aircraft is an independent node in the air that is fully capable of relaying data to any other DL compliant node in the air, at sea or on the ground.

As I have mentioned before, this was one of PAF's key ASRs. We did not need a duplicate GCI network with the Erieye acting as an input node into the GCI. The Erieye will be the central node in the air defence grid.


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## blain2

malaymishra123 said:


> I got you in the first go. If PAF wants more stations, ground stations can be setup. More likely than not, no additional stations would be needed. My point was about the need for it, considering bigger platforms offer all that plus more.



Not really. His point is if needed, that can be a case with Phalcon too. You have a secure DL and you download and upload between the ground consoles and those on the AEW platform.

Erieye has 5 operator consoles for fully autonomous operations. IDFAF's GF550 has 6 to do the same.


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## blain2

malaymishra123 said:


> Necessarily a negative per me mate. The difference is whether you 'choose to' use the ground stations or whether you 'have to' beyond a certain amount.



To lay this debate to rest, with Erieye system being delivered to Pakistan and the ones that HAF are operating, you do not have to use the ground stations.

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## Munir

Correct. The Greecs were asking on board operators cause the original has only one station which controls the sending of data... The Saab2000 version is fully capable. It has options to use groundstations but it can handle the job without it. If you do a toptech job and you can use a few supercomputers on the ground then I bet you can do it faster then if you are up there without those computers...


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## SBD-3

Munir said:


>



this is KJ-2000 I think we are getting Y-8

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## sancho

blain2 said:


> There are quite a few other benefits of the SAAB system as well in comparison to the Phalcon.


Do you mean just the systems, or also the platforms and what benefit do you see?


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## sancho

blain2 said:


> As I have said, lacking specific information about the two systems, its hard to even contemplate that Erieye users would be impacted by the fore/aft tracking issues that are of a nature which would severely impact operational performance. All that has been discussed is based on general specs which are neither conclusive nor very detailed.


I think the infos, specially about the radar arrays in the presentations says a lot and proved (to me) the claims some articles were talking about. But as we both said, IAF anf PAF might have different requirements and both system will serve them well.


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## TOPGUN

With all this confusesion i still don't know the platfrom we will be getting some one shed some light plzz is it gona be kj-2000 or y-8?


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## blain2

Yes Pakistan is looking at the Y8 solution. It will not be a rotodome technology because PAF has issues with it. It will also be a smaller platform that is rugged enough for use from various air fields around the country.


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## blain2

sancho said:


> I think the infos, specially about the radar arrays in the presentations says a lot and proved (to me) the claims some articles were talking about. But as we both said, IAF anf PAF might have different requirements and both system will serve them well.



I agree. PAF's requirement is a simple one. To counter IAF and provide AEW to its units. For that purpose, the SSS meets all of the requirements laid down by the PAF. What more can they ask for?

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## SBD-3

TOPGUN said:


> With all this confusesion i still don't know the platfrom we will be getting some one shed some light plzz is it gona be kj-2000 or y-8?




this is Y-8 what PAF is going to get beacuse it is very simillar to SAAB so seems logical rather than KJ-2000 what people are posting

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## mughaljee

Brothers, 
are we getting Chines Awacs with transfer of technology , or we just buying it ?


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## Sunny4pak

Sallam,
I think we are buying it......


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## SBD-3

nop we are getting it with ToT.Cuz if we were not then there was no reason for PAF to drop SAAB 2000 from 6 to 4


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## SBD-3

i hope this would be a bit of help
KongJing-200 (GaoXin 5) Airborne Early Warning & Control Aircraft - SinoDefence.com

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## jawadqamar

blain2 said:


> Yes Pakistan is looking at the Y8 solution. It will not be a rotodome technology because PAF has issues with it. It will also be a smaller platform that is rugged enough for use from various air fields around the country.


*Sept 2008 issue of AFM the PAF Chief's interview clearly states that the Y-8F-600 airframe, designated as the ZDK-03, will have the "blade on top, not a rotating dome". *ie KJ-200 

KJ-200 was initially based on the basic Y-8 F-400 and PAF was not satisfied with it, so agreement was signed with Chinese company to upgrade the KJ-200. It had some cabin interior noise cancellation issues to be sorted out. PAF has asked China to make several improvements for its ZDK-03 platforms and recently we have seen the pictures of improved kj-200. Y-8/9 offers 10 hours endurance and space for more controllers then 5 as in Saab-2000 AEW&C


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## sancho

jawadqamar said:


> *Sept 2008 issue of AFM the PAF Chief's interview clearly states that the Y-8F-600 airframe, designated as the ZDK-03, will have the "blade on top, not a rotating dome". *ie KJ-200
> 
> KJ-200 was initially based on the basic Y-8 F-400 and PAF was not satisfied with it, so agreement was signed with Chinese company to upgrade the KJ-200. It had some cabin interior noise cancellation issues to be sorted out. PAF has asked China to make several improvements for its ZDK-03 platforms and recently we have seen the pictures of improved kj-200. Y-8/9 offers 10 hours endurance and space for more controllers then 5 as in Saab-2000 AEW&C


Interesting, so PAF will also go for bigger AWACS aircrafts with more space. 


hasnain0099 said:


> nop we are getting it with ToT.Cuz if we were not then there was no reason for PAF to drop SAAB 2000 from 6 to 4


The article on sinodefence says:


> # with modernised avionics including U.S. Honeywell navigation system
> # Four Pratt and Whitney Canada PW150B turboprop engines with British Dodi R-408 six-blade propellers


Not sure what ToT is left that would be useful but it could be cheaper than Saab 2000 and offers much more range and especially more space and payload.


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## SBD-3

sancho said:


> Interesting, so PAF will also go for bigger AWACS aircrafts with more space.
> Not sure what ToT is left that would be useful but it could be cheaper than Saab 2000 and offers much more range and especially more space and payload.



Well China wouldnot have gone for such development if it had to buy these system of the shelve.It would end up as licensed production in China.But any ways the most important component, Radar is of chinese nature. I think what you are mentioning are airframe specs rather than radar.I see this as a partnership as china is developing this tech and PAF has the best in this i.e. erieye radar so PAF would hopfully to integrate erieye in Y-8 to develop an better indigenious system when it gets it whith ToT.To me this is the motivation for going after Y-8 because of mutual interest and welbeing of both the countries rather than better range or size kind of things


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## SBD-3

here is the official video of SAAB erieye giving all details hope you guys will enjoy it

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## SBD-3

hay guys! I'min a bit of fix regarding IAF AWACS here see for your self
the first picture is of the phalcon AWACS





now the second picture is of IAF Phalcon





Then see the description regarding Phalcon

*IAI Phalcon 707 *
Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) developed its Phalcon system for Israeli defence forces and for export. Airborne Early Warning, Command and Control (AEWC&C) systems play a major role on the modern battlefield by providing real-time intelligence and command and control needed to achieve and maintain air superiority over the combat area and to enable surveillance of borders in peacetime. The world's most advanced AEWC&C system, the PHALCON, was developed and produced by ELTA using Active Phased Array Electronic Scanning Technology rather than a mechanically rotating antenna (rotodome) used by current AWACS systems, giving PHALCON greater operational flexibility and performance by several orders of magnitude. The Phalcon AEW&C aircraft is based on four sensors: phased-array radar, phased-array IFF, ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT. A unique fusion technology continuously cross-relates the data gathered by all sensors. When one of the sensors reports a detection, the system automatically initiates an active search of the complementary sensors. 
*The AWE&C phased array radar replaces the conventional rotodome radar. It is mounted either on the aircraft fuselage or on top of the aircraft inside a stationary dome, providing full 360&#176; coverage. This electronically steered beam radar delivers a tremendous advantage over mechanical rotating antenna, as it supports the tracking a high maneuvering targets.* The radar can detect even low flying objects from distances of hundreds of kilometers, day and night, under all weather conditions. Verification beams sent at specific, individual, newly detected targets eliminate false alarms. Moreover, track initiation is achieved in 2 to 4 seconds as compared to 20 to 40 seconds with a rotodome radar 
The IFF system employs solid state phased array technology to perform interrogation, decoding, target detection and tracking. A monopulse technique is used to implement azimuth measurement. The IFF data is automatically correlated with the phased array radar. 
The ESM/ELINT system receives, analyzes and locates radar signals, covering 360o. It combines high sensitivity with high probability of intercept, and achieves excellent accuracy in bearing measurement. The system uses narrow-band super-heterodyne receivers and wide-band instantaneous frequency measurement (IFM) techniques to provide very high accuracy and probability of intercept of airborne and surface emitters. Very high bearing accuracy for all received signals is achieved through Differential Time of Arrival (DTOA) measurements. The system also collects and analyzes ELINT data. 
The PHALCON's CSM/COMINT receives in UHF, VHF and HF, rapidly searching for airborne, shipborne or ground communications signals of interest. Selected radio nets can be monitored for signal activity. A DF capability locates targets. Detected signals can be assigned to monitoring receivers instantaneously. The system makes extensive use of computers to reduce the load on operators. 
The aircraft communicates, via its data link, with Air Defense HQ. Data from additional air defense sensors are fused to create a complete spatial picture. 

The PHALCON systems can be installed on a variety of platforms, such as the Boeing 707, Boeing 767, Boeing 747, Airbus and C-130. This system has already been sold to Chile, where it is designated "Condor". Under the aegis of Defense Minister Yitzhak Mordechai and Defense Ministry Director General Ilan Biran, six agreements for cooperation between Israeli, American and European defense firms were signed on 15 October 1998. Under one of these agreements, IAI/ELTA Electronics Industries Ltd. and Raytheon Systems Company will cooperate on the development, production and marketing of AEWC&C systems on a world wide basis. The new project will be based on PHALCON. The two companies have already teamed up to compete for tenders for AEWC&C systems for Australia, South Korea and Turkey. 

Specifications 
Country of Origin Israel 
Builder IAI 
Role 
Similar Aircraft 
Wing Span 44.60 m 
Wing Area 283.40 m&#178; 
Length 44.40 m 
Height 12.90 m 
Weight 
Engine 4 x P&W JT3D-3B 
Maximum speed 973 Km/h 
Cruising speed 
*Range 6,920 Km *

now see the below video which states the Active range of radar 400KM 




Please any one can explain the situation


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## sancho

hasnain0099 said:


> Specifications
> Country of Origin Israel
> Builder IAI
> Role
> Similar Aircraft
> Wing Span 44.60 m
> Wing Area 283.40 m²
> Length 44.40 m
> Height 12.90 m
> Weight
> Engine 4 x P&W JT3D-3B
> Maximum speed 973 Km/h
> Cruising speed
> *Range 6,920 Km *
> 
> now see the below video which states the Active range of radar 400KM
> 
> Please any one can explain the situation



I'm not exactly sure what you want to know, but 6920 Km is the range of the 707 aircraft, the radar range of Phalcon system is around 400 - 500 Km (depending on what kind of target). 
The A50 of IAF with Phalcon system has a range of around 6400 Km (can be refueled in the air for longer distances) and will have the same radar range.


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## blain2

sancho said:


> Interesting, so PAF will also go for bigger AWACS aircrafts with more space.
> 
> The article on sinodefence says:
> 
> Not sure what ToT is left that would be useful but it could be cheaper than Saab 2000 and offers much more range and especially more space and payload.



No PAF is not going for a bigger aircraft. It will be about the same size as the SAAB 340s selected for the SAAB 2000 AEW system for the PAF.


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## sancho

blain2 said:


> No PAF is not going for a bigger aircraft. It will be about the same size as the SAAB 340s selected for the SAAB 2000 AEW system for the PAF.



Saab 2000:

Max seating for 58
Wing span 24.76 m (81 ft 3 in)
Length 27.28 m (89 ft 6 in)
Height 7.73 m (25 ft 4 in)
*Max takeoff 22,999 kg (50,704 lb)*

Shaanxi Y-8:

Capacity: &#8776;90 equipped troops
Wingspan: 38.0m (124ft 8in)
Length: 34.02m (111ft, 8in)
Height: 11.6m (36ft 8in)
*Max takeoff weight: 61,000kg (134,480lb)*

Saab 2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shaanxi Y-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If these specs are right it will be way bigger than Saab 2000!
The Saab 2000 seems to be mainly a passenger aircraft, the Y8 instead is comparable with the C130 Hercules for cargo and troop transport. So will Y8 be the main AEW&C aircraft of PAF and the Saab 2000 are only added llike IAF DRDO AEW&C?


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## SBD-3

sancho said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you want to know, but 6920 Km is the range of the 707 aircraft, the radar range of Phalcon system is around 400 - 500 Km (depending on what kind of target).
> The A50 of IAF with Phalcon system has a range of around 6400 Km (can be refueled in the air for longer distances) and will have the same radar range.



I mean that Phalcon radar replaces the rotational rotatingdom technique (like the first pic) but IAF is going again for RD which is conventional


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## SBD-3

sancho said:


> Saab 2000:
> 
> Max seating for 58
> Wing span 24.76 m (81 ft 3 in)
> Length 27.28 m (89 ft 6 in)
> Height 7.73 m (25 ft 4 in)
> *Max takeoff 22,999 kg (50,704 lb)*
> 
> Shaanxi Y-8:
> 
> Capacity: &#8776;90 equipped troops
> Wingspan: 38.0m (124ft 8in)
> Length: 34.02m (111ft, 8in)
> Height: 11.6m (36ft 8in)
> *Max takeoff weight: 61,000kg (134,480lb)*
> 
> Saab 2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Shaanxi Y-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> If these specs are right it will be way bigger than Saab 2000!
> The Saab 2000 seems to be mainly a passenger aircraft, the Y8 instead is comparable with the C130 Hercules for cargo and troop transport. *So will Y8 be the main AEW&C aircraft of PAF and the Saab 2000 are only added llike IAF DRDO AEW&C*?



well dear friend,
saab 2000 will be the main horse in PAF as it is more advanced than Y-8.Remember China is still developing this techinology where s Erieye has 10 years of operational history.I think PAF is looking to Datalink its chinese fighthers with Y-8 and rest with Erieye.However the main motive of Y-8 is the development of indiginious AWACS by integrating Erieye and KJ-200 technology


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## blain2

sancho said:


> Saab 2000:
> 
> Max seating for 58
> Wing span 24.76 m (81 ft 3 in)
> Length 27.28 m (89 ft 6 in)
> Height 7.73 m (25 ft 4 in)
> *Max takeoff 22,999 kg (50,704 lb)*
> 
> Shaanxi Y-8:
> 
> Capacity: &#8776;90 equipped troops
> Wingspan: 38.0m (124ft 8in)
> Length: 34.02m (111ft, 8in)
> Height: 11.6m (36ft 8in)
> *Max takeoff weight: 61,000kg (134,480lb)*
> 
> Saab 2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Shaanxi Y-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> If these specs are right it will be way bigger than Saab 2000!
> The Saab 2000 seems to be mainly a passenger aircraft, the Y8 instead is comparable with the C130 Hercules for cargo and troop transport. So will Y8 be the main AEW&C aircraft of PAF and the Saab 2000 are only added llike IAF DRDO AEW&C?



I think you know the point I was trying to make. PAF is not choosing a bigger platform because it is needed. Y-8 is not that much bigger than the SAAB 340. That is what the Chinese are offering so we are sticking with it. The need is not for a larger aircraft, rather the smaller of the two aircraft on offer from the Chinese.


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## blain2

hasnain0099 said:


> I mean that Phalcon radar replaces the rotational rotatingdom technique (like the first pic) but IAF is going again for RD which is conventional



They have a rotodome on their IL-78 but it does not rotate. it has triangular arrays inside of the dome which allow the radar to see 360 degrees without having the need to rotate.

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## SBD-3

is it same in E3C as well?


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## SQ8

Nope.. not in the current version.. It has a rotating rotodome...


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## SBD-3

santro said:


> Nope.. not in the current version.. It has a rotating rotodome...



Then whats the main advantage over Phalcon?


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## sancho

blain2 said:


> Y-8 is not that much bigger than the SAAB 340. That is what the Chinese are offering so we are sticking with it. The need is not for a larger aircraft, rather the smaller of the two aircraft on offer from the Chinese.


I'm sorry Blain2, but I guess you are mistaken about the size of the Saab 340, because Y8 is nearly double as big in length and height and the cabin size will be bigger aswell.

http://products.saabgroup.com/PDBWebNew/GetFile.aspx?PathType=ProductFiles&FileType=Files&Id=7520


blain2 said:


> I think you know the point I was trying to make. PAF is not choosing a bigger platform because it is needed.


It was jawadqamar who said it will have more controllers, what could mean also more capabilities, that's why I'm asking. 
Even there might be no need, you will have bigger aircrafts and I doubt PAF wouldn't use the extra space right? Y8 seems to me the preferable aircraft compared to the Saab 2000, because it offers more space, more range and should be cheaper too.


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## sancho

hasnain0099 said:


> I mean that Phalcon radar replaces the rotational rotatingdom technique (like the first pic) but IAF is going again for RD which is conventional


It's just a different platform for the Phalcon system, Israel choses to put more radar arrays on their aircrafts instead of useing a RD like US, or European. The 707 in your pic was an old version, this is the latest:

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photos/sprucemoose/images/21783/g550-aew-2.jpg

India chose the A50 with RD as the platform for the same Phalcon system, maybe because of commonality to the IL 76 that are in use of IAF.


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## FulcrumD

hasnain0099 said:


> Then whats the main advantage over Phalcon?



Phalcon is a superior system,the E3C (Sentry)is an older system.


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## blain2

santro said:


> Nope.. not in the current version.. It has a rotating rotodome...



Santro,

You may want to check, I am pretty sure their rotodome does not rotate. The older Russian AWACS on loan to the IAF did rotate.


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## blain2

FulcrumD said:


> Phalcon is a superior system,the E3C (Sentry)is an older system.



E3 is indeed an older system and has its drawbacks but rest assured that its not inferior to any systems around. The USAF has had a constant upgradation o fthese systems and even now they offer performance at least on par with all of the operational systems out there.


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## SBD-3

FulcrumD said:


> Phalcon is a superior system,the E3C (Sentry)is an older system.



Do really think that USAF would like to operate somthing inferior to lead?


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## SQ8

Blain I was talking about the E-3... my bad though.. should have mentioned it.


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## SBD-3

blain2 said:


> E3 is indeed an older system and has its drawbacks but rest assured that its not inferior to any systems around. The USAF has had a constant upgradation o fthese systems and even now they offer performance at least on par with all of the operational systems out there.



If E3 is an old system them why PAF had it in first preference?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

we wanted the E-3 Sentry

american would only sell us the E-2 hawkeyes......






p.s. P-3Cs in navy are using same radar as hawkeye


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## SBD-3

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> we wanted the E-3 Sentry
> 
> american would only sell us the E-2 hawkeyes......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> p.s. P-3Cs in navy are using same radar as hawkeye



but why Pakistan wanted an "inferior" platform if E3 is less advanced than phalcon


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## Abu Zolfiqar

hasnain0099 said:


> but why Pakistan wanted an "inferior" platform if E3 is less advanced than phalcon



we did not want anything "inferior" brother Hasnain.

e-3 is FAR from being inferior. As somebody else pointed out, why in hell would USAF operate something that is "out-dated" and not constantly upgraded to meet today's defence challenges


no reason at all. US/NATO underwent RSIP Program (google it) to modify and update the radar/warning systems + command stations of the aircraft


among other things:



> This hardware and software modification to the E-3 improves radar set performance providing enhanced detection of targets, with an emphasis toward those with a low radar cross section (RCS). Major advantages include: Increased range against reduced RCS targets to include cruise missiles; Improved electronic counter-counter measures (ECCM) against current threats; Improved radar system reliability and maintainability (R&M); and Improved radar control and maintenance panel (RCMP) with embedded test equipment. RSIP utilizes a Pulse Doppler Pulse Compression (PDPC) waveform, increases data sampling rates, increases range and velocity resolution, increases signal integration time, adds new signal processing algorithms to enhance detection sensitivity and unambiguous range determination, and improves radar set monitoring and control. RSIP is a huge leap forward in a variety of factors. It increases the ability to detect and track smaller targets at greater distances, akin to giving the radar a set of binoculars. It also improves the reliability and maintainability for the radar hardware, which decreases the number of spares and amount of down time needed for repairs. Improved control and processing algorithms tailored to current threat data enhances system electronic counter-countermeasure (ECCM) capabilities. The improved electronic counter-counter measures mean it will be much more difficult for enemy forces to deceive or "jam" the AWACS with false electronic signals.




E-3 Sentry (AWACS) Radar System Improvement Program (RSIP)






in Pakistan's case, our doctrine is different. We are defence-based as well as offensive-defence. We need credible deterrant in our Arsenal which meets our requirements and our price range (and which is compatible with our fleet of aircrafts).

That is where the Saab-2000 Erieye comes in. And it is a damn good aircraft.

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## TangoViking

Recently the first PAF aircraft in the Saab Horizon Programme flew in Sweden with the full suite of mission systems onboard and with the radar and coms operative. PAF personnel onboard. 

Also Sweden's military in June took delivery of two upgraded Saab 340 which has 3 operator stations and full AEW&C capability, work on Thai a/c is under way, so all Erieye programs is progressing well.

The BOW-21 ESM on the PAF a/c give under 1 degree direction finding accuracy against emitters in 360 coverage, passive long range near 100% POI. Based on threat libraries it determines type and position and presents it on screen. Unclassified capacity is 1000 tracked emitters and 8000 on the library.

ESM tracking doesn't expose you. But radar does and should be used wisely.

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## mughaljee

TangoViking
Some footage please.


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## TangoViking

mughaljee said:


> TangoViking
> Some footage please.



Tried... but I haven't got that kind of post rights on this forum.

You can probably email Saab Aerosystems and get some. There's a whole new set of pictures that was shot of Erieye a/c.


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## Munir

TangoViking said:


> Tried... but I haven't got that kind of post rights on this forum.
> 
> You can probably email Saab Aerosystems and get some. There's a whole new set of pictures that was shot of Erieye a/c.



Can you provide Neo or me the contacts/emails? We can make it available for everyone.


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## TangoViking

Munir said:


> Can you provide Neo or me the contacts/emails? We can make it available for everyone.



I figured out that I can attach some jpg samples instead. The in-flight photos is some weeks ago and shot before the system trials that I mentioned. Getting the PAF scheme on is among the last stuff to do on the a/c.. but the wait will not be that long now. Other than that I suggest a email to Aerosystems via saabgroup.com emailform. 

The 340 pics is from the handover to SwAF of their new ASC 890 aircraft that has been added to the UN/EU deployment register for possible international missions from year-end. 

...................

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## mughaljee

More will be appreciated.


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## sidharth

paf to get their awacs by the end of october says paf chief!!

ARTICLE - Islamabad, May 29 (ANI): The Air Warning and Control System (AWACS) and the spying satellite acquired by India recently has bolstered the Indian defense system, and as expected, Pakistan is worried by the Indian eye in the sky.

Pakistan Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman has stated that Pakistan would also acquire an Air Warning and Control System (AWACS) by October.

Suleman said India has created an imbalance in the power in the region, so it was important for Pakistan to balance the situation by acquiring its own early warning systems,The Daily Times reports.

Addressing a graduation ceremony at Risalpur Academy, Suleman also disclosed that during the Indo-Pak standoff in 2001-02, the Pakistan Air Force had shot down an Indian drone which had violated Pakistans air territory.

Indias most potent force multiplier, Phalcon AWACS, is capable of tracking down incoming missiles. The all weather system is also capable of engaging 60 targets simultaneously and has a range of 400 km.

It has a radar that can help detect cruise missiles or aircrafts at ranges much beyond the capabilities of present systems. It can also collate information about troop movements and missile launches on ground and even intercept highly secured communication networks of the enemy.

India would acquire two more AWACS by the end of the next year. (ANI) 

paf is set to get 1 frm the sweden air force.


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## Munir

Later and later... First it as July. Then september and now already october...


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## SBD-3

sidharth said:


> paf to get their awacs by the end of october says paf chief!!
> 
> ARTICLE - Islamabad, May 29 (ANI): The Air Warning and Control System (AWACS) and the spying satellite acquired by India recently has bolstered the Indian defense system, and as expected, Pakistan is worried by the Indian eye in the sky.
> 
> Pakistan Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman has stated that Pakistan would *also acquire an Air Warning and Control System (AWACS) by October.*
> 
> Suleman said India has created an imbalance in the power in the region, so it was important for Pakistan to balance the situation by acquiring its own early warning systems,The Daily Times reports.
> 
> Addressing a graduation ceremony at Risalpur Academy, Suleman also disclosed that during the Indo-Pak standoff in 2001-02, the Pakistan Air Force had shot down an Indian drone which had violated Pakistans air territory.
> 
> Indias most potent force multiplier, Phalcon AWACS, is capable of tracking down incoming missiles. The all weather system is also capable of engaging 60 targets simultaneously and has a range of 400 km.
> 
> It has a radar that can help detect cruise missiles or aircrafts at ranges much beyond the capabilities of present systems. It can also collate information about troop movements and missile launches on ground and even intercept highly secured communication networks of the enemy.
> 
> India would acquire two more AWACS by the end of the next year. (ANI)
> 
> paf is set to get 1 frm the sweden air force.



is he talking about Erieye or some other new platform??


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## sidharth

hasnain0099 said:


> is he talking about Erieye or some other new platform??



Yes! The Erieye radar system, developed by Saab Microwave Systems of Sweden!

The radar provides 360 degree coverage and has an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350 km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment  in heavy radar clutter and at low target altitudes. In addition to this, the radar is also capable of identifying friends or foes, and has a sea surveillance mode.

more information - Erieye radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Abu Zolfiqar

So are we to receive 4 or 6? I keep getting conflicting reports.


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## hj786

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> So are we to receive 4 or 6? I keep getting conflicting reports.



It was originally 6 Erieye when the order was first signed in ~2006, but they later reduced the order to 4 and signed up for 4 KJ-200 (a Chinese AEWC, PAF will call it "ZDK-03" ) as well.

Some links for you to read:
Pakistan Surmounts Sanctions To Revive Airpower - Defense News - talks about ZDK-03.
Sweden Finalizes Saab 2000 AEW&C Contract With Pakistan - talks about the Saab 2000 deal


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## SBD-3

why does PAF has a different designation like ZKD-03????????


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> why does PAF has a different designation like ZKD-03????????



the export variants come with different designations, this is usually the case with most of there systems!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the export variants come with different designations, this is usually the case with most of there systems!
> 
> regards!



well export versions are usually degraded will this also be a case this time????


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## mean_bird

hasnain0099 said:


> well export versions are usually degraded will this also be a case this time????



who says so?

The F-7 we got were better than Chinese F-7s. 

ZKD-03 and FC-20 will undergo various changes to incorporate "better" equipment because PAF doesn't like "current" ones. 

Surely and upgrade and not a degraded one. Even the techonologies in JF-17 are new that Chinese are only now incorporating in J-10b. At best, it wont be the exact same as their home version but a variant.

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## qsaark

mean_bird said:


> who says so?


Hasnain is right and so are you. It all depends with whom you are dealing. If we buy stuff from USA/Europe, it is always (to the best of my understanding) degraded whereas when we deal with Chinese, we get some leverage to customize the hardware.

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## SBD-3

ya sure but is this right to only depend upon china i think we should dversify our manufacturing technology as well. I know chinese tech is good but still not at par with western tech. With lot more planes in the air and cut thorat compitition we should think about going for some more diversified ACs like EF or Rafale or Grippen.Even though we are buying upgraded J-10s but we would also look into a possibility where we could join hands with UAE and KSA for ToT deal of any of these ACs?


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> well export versions are usually degraded will this also be a case this time????



i guess Mean_bird have provided you with a good answer!
just to add, we know that the equipment we take from china is greatly modified according to our requirments. we made them modify he F7 into a better F7PG then comes the excessively upgraded FC20 and so it may be the same case with the AWACS also!
i hope you get it!

*sir qsaark *have rightly said that



> It all depends with whom you are dealing. If we buy stuff from USA/Europe, it is always (to the best of my understanding) degraded whereas when we deal with Chinese, we get some leverage to customize the hardware.



regards!


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> ya sure but is this right to only depend upon china i think we should dversify our manufacturing technology as well. I know chinese tech is good but still not at par with western tech. With lot more planes in the air and cut thorat compitition we should think about going for some more diversified ACs like EF or Rafale or Grippen.Even though we are buying upgraded J-10s but we would also look into a possibility where we could join hands with UAE and KSA for ToT deal of any of these ACs?



you are right, it MAY not be wise to fully depend on just one source i guess we are not doing so! we are operating westren stuff, the F16 the AIM120 and many more. also a bonus that caomes with chines deals is that it really helps to develop a technology for our own as it wasa in the case of
JF17, Al Khalid, Baktaar Shikan and many many more!!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> you are right, it MAY not be wise to fully depend on just one source i guess we are not doing so! we are operating westren stuff, the F16 the AIM120 and many more. also a bonus that caomes with chines deals is that it really helps to develop a technology for our own as it wasa in the case of
> JF17, Al Khalid, Baktaar Shikan and many many more!!
> 
> regards!



Agreed but PAF hasent still been able to come out of "Falcon Spell" with 5.1 Bn $ Deal (correct me if i am wrong) we could have gone for Grippen NG with ToT we could have got 50~60 grippens (high end estimate) we could have just let falcons go through their life and switched to Grippens


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## Manticore

hasnain0099 said:


> Agreed but PAF hasent still been able to come out of "Falcon Spell" with 5.1 Bn $ Deal (correct me if i am wrong) we could have gone for *Grippen NG with ToT *we could have got 50~60 grippens (high end estimate) we could have just let falcons go through their life and switched to Grippens



a little bit off topic
most of the mlus are via aid.. 

the new block50s are paid by paf...

remember paf has a 30yr experience plus a pre-existing setup for f16s.. also they are relatively cheap..

Gripen NG offer to Dutch $~70 million systemprice each

grippen again would have american integration [engine]

grippen is a bit more hightech for paf to handle at the moment..you can see the interviews thread on this forum

*edit*
i meant grippen with tot.. as paf is now concentrating to be selfreliant

INTERVIEW AIRMARSHAL TANVIR


> Q. Pakistan is going for F-16s. After 5 years their won't be any room left for the upgradation of F-16C/D whereas F-16 MLU will already been upgraded and cannot be upgraded further. Why Pakistan is not going for JAS-39C Grippen, in which their is room for upgradation of aircraft as well SAAB has agreed to transfer the technology to Pakistan?
> 
> Ans. As i have mentioned earlier, latest upgradation, airborne equipment and weapon system can increase the lethality of the aircraft. New variants are certainly different from their older counterparts. As far as transfer of technology is concerned, to tell you the truth, *we are not in a state of handle extremely high technology used in JAS-39 Grippen, as we don't have the bases of aerial technogy*.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/22396-interviews.html#post311899

even the present jf17 setup in kamra , will have capacity of 15/yr in coming 2 years... jf17 is not that extremely hightech and it took many years to train the crew plus still chinese workers would be their to instruct teach and participate.
so its difficult to jumpstart grippen ng or j10b production from day1... it take time to prepare the crew at kamra and secondly financial constraints come into play

f16 mlus and block50 are a different story, they were never with tot


----------



## hj786

ANTIBODY said:


> also, grippen is a bit more hightech for paf to handle at the moment



Why do people keep saying this?
F-16C/D block 52 is just as high-tech as Gripen but that didn't stop PAF inducting a squadron. Same with the F-16AM/BM (F-16A/B with MLU) and the Erieye system.


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## SBD-3

Neo said:


> Erieye is the ideal platform within the requirements of PAF and it comes cheap.
> We had other options including US and Chinese design.



well thats debatable PAF's 1st choice was E-3 not erieye


----------



## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> Agreed but PAF hasent still been able to come out of "Falcon Spell" with 5.1 Bn $ Deal (correct me if i am wrong) we could have gone for Grippen NG with ToT we could have got 50~60 grippens (high end estimate) we could have just let falcons go through their life and switched to Grippens



it true that the US are not a good supplier to depend upon but the thing is that we have experience and infrastructure to handle the F16. getting a new system in limited wont have been a wise option as its cost get high when we consider the training and ground facility expenditures ao that is one reason that we sticked with the F16. i do agree with you that it would have been better to stitch away from the US market but perhaps we do not have enough money at the present time to take this step. any how we will have to do this one dsay or the other and i hope we have the options open for us on that day!

regards!


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## Quwa

hj786 said:


> Why do people keep saying this?
> F-16C/D block 52 is just as high-tech as Gripen but that didn't stop PAF inducting a squadron. Same with the F-16AM/BM (F-16A/B with MLU) and the Erieye system.


I think the issue wasn't inducting simply the Gripen, but rather acquiring it with significant technology-transfer for license-production. We may have the talent pool to absorb such stuff, but definitely not the funds. For example another 4.5 generation fighter - the FC-20/J-10B - will not be acquired with transfer of production technology. We'll have to settle with JF-17 and ZDK03...poor people's Gripen and Erieye

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## qsaark

Mark Sien said:


> I think the issue wasn't inducting simply the Gripen, but rather acquiring it with significant technology-transfer for license-production. We may have the talent pool to absorb such stuff, but definitely not the funds. For example another 4.5 generation fighter - the FC-20/J-10B - will not be acquired with transfer of production technology. We'll have to settle with JF-17 and ZDK03...poor people's Gripen and Erieye


My understanding is, it was (the Gripen induction) more than a funding issue. The Gripen's RM12 is a development of American GE 404 power plant and Americans were not keen on providing us with technical know-how of that engine. The fear was that the power plant technology may fall into the hands of Chinese via us.


----------



## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> it true that the US are not a good supplier to depend upon but the thing is that we have experience and infrastructure to handle the F16. getting a new system in limited wont have been a wise option as its cost get high when we consider the training and ground facility expenditures ao that is one reason that we sticked with the F16. i do agree with you that it would have been better to stitch away from the US market but perhaps we do not have enough money at the present time to take this step. any how we will have to do this *one dsay or the other and i hope we have the options open for us on that day!*
> 
> regards!



Agreed again that we needed to build infrastructure and maintainence facilities but as you rightly said it is inevitable PAF should embrace the change now just consider if we have to do this after 10 to 15 years going forward.It still is to be done but one thing that this project would have done is that it would have given PAF with significant know how and would help in further upgarding of thunder as well (which at present derives perameters out of falcon)
the 36 Falcon deal was 3 billion (5.1 Billion in Total)
28 grippens costed 1.5 billion

here the post i got about it



> PAF was given 2.5 billion dollar last year for foreign aquasition 28 of these Gripesn caosted 1.5 billion dollar last i read about they sold these jets i can't rember which country there are very few, well you do the math how much thet jets would cost this price tag was with Lgistical cost included, the ge F-404-400 engine is licenced built by Volvo in swede about 60 percent, and it is commercially available to any one they wan't to sell, Swedes have a more rigid policy of selling something that gives the Americans confidence on there well thought through decision. but an authorization is still required 60 percent of the engines is made in the US But i think PAF is considering
> the french SNECMA M53-P20 which is teh Mirage 2005 engine. its is doable the Sweds have built a beautifulll and a very flexibal Platform.
> 
> the Avionics have been modified too BAE is now providing input as a partner instead of american firms
> 
> Any of you That are haveing a stroke on PAF purchases Read this extract taken from a crediable Source
> 
> Power plant Details
> 
> Built by Volvo Aero, under license from General Electric, and designated RM12, is an improved version of the F404-400 turbofan, used on the F-18, and has a dry thrust of 12,150 lbst and 17,800 with afterburner. With this power, the Grippen can achieve supersonic speed at any altitude, in spite of having fixed geometry air intakes. This engine can be acelerated from idle to full reheat in only three seconds. Sixty percent of the powerplant is made on the USA and the remainder on Sweden. Since the export of this engine is subjected to american authorization, Saab has studied versions of the Grippen powered by alternative engines: the Snecma M88-3 used on the Rafale and the Eurojet Ej200 used on the Eurofighter 2000. Volvo says that the fitting of these powerplants would only need small changes on the geometry of the air intakes, but certainly it would need time to make a proper development.




now compare what would have we got when we would have got grippens 
to me the fear of US sanctions is redicilous. I mean we are still getting falcons right! so we are still exposed to US threat or not?

the link is below
http://www.****************/forums/archive/index.php/t-1751.html


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## MastanKhan

qsaark said:


> My understanding is, it was (the Gripen induction) more than a funding issue. The Gripen's RM12 is a development of American GE 404 power plant and Americans were not keen on providing us with technical know-how of that engine. The fear was that the power plant technology may fall into the hands of Chinese via us.





Hi,

The air marshall in his interview clearly stated that pak didnot have the ability to absorb the technology of the grippen. The interview is floating around somewhere on this board.


----------



## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The air marshall in his interview clearly stated that pak didnot have the ability to absorb the technology of the grippen. The interview is floating around somewhere on this board.



But still it was a *ToT!* not selling mere ACs as in case of falcons
.C'mon this is no excuse that we could not digest the technology.ok lets suppose we go with falcons going 10 years from now will we have the ability to digest any fifth gen plane then? if we have to start ab initio then why not today?

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## Manticore

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The air marshall in his interview clearly stated that pak didnot have the ability to absorb the technology of the grippen. The interview is floating around somewhere on this board.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/22396-interviews.html#post311899


grppen was planned to cover all the f7/mirages/a5... assembly would have been more costeffective as compared to a mere 40 j10b production line if tot wasnt so hitech.

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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> Agreed again that we needed to build infrastructure and maintainence facilities but as you rightly said it is inevitable PAF should embrace the change now just consider if we have to do this after 10 to 15 years going forward.It still is to be done but one thing that this project would have done is that it would have given PAF with significant know how and would help in further upgarding of thunder as well (which at present derives perameters out of falcon)
> the 36 Falcon deal was 3 billion (5.1 Billion in Total)
> 28 grippens costed 1.5 billion
> 
> here the post i got about it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now compare what would have we got when we would have got grippens
> to me the fear of US sanctions is redicilous. I mean we are still getting falcons right! so we are still exposed to US threat or not?
> 
> the link is below
> http://www.****************/forums/archive/index.php/t-1751.html



i fear we are not only exposed to us sanction rather we have been hit by them, i seriously doubt that we will get the Block 52!!
now all we can do is to wait for getting the JF and FC20 mature enough so that we phase out the F16s and after that we should keep an eye on whom we are purchasing our systems. i hope we dont go for US at that time!!

regards!


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## Arsalan

i think we are over with gripen now, we cannot induct so many new platform at the same time as it will require a lot of ground facility upgradation and staff training so for time being we better be happy with FC20 and JF programmes. in the mean time keep an eye on indian MRCA project and then move forward in 5 to 8 years time when the JF and FC are mature and then we can induct a new platform keeping in view our requirments after the MRCA flying in neighbour!

regards!


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## SBD-3

ANTIBODY said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/22396-interviews.html#post311899
> 
> 
> grppen was planned to cover all the f7/mirages/a5... assembly would have been more costeffective as compared to a mere 40 j10b production line if tot wasnt so hitech.



Exactly! Taking this point further is we are producing AWACS with China which we dont have any prior experience and manufacturing and maintainence setup how would we not be able to produce grippen?


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> Exactly! Taking this point further is we are producing AWACS with China which we dont have any prior experience and manufacturing and maintainence setup how would we not be able to produce grippen?



its not about our talents its about our capacity. i dont think that we will be able to handle JF17, FC20, AWACS (two different platforms, one swedish and the other the chines one) and a new fighter jet such as gripen all at the same time,what do you think!
also keep in mind that we will be developing JF17 at home, upgrading it and all that stuff! perhaps that is also one of the many reasons that Pakistan have not yet opted for ToT of FC20! we are talented enough by sadly we do not have resources to start so many projects all at a time, the FC 20 project is also intended for 2014 and hopefully by that time we will have some command on JF as it will be mature!

regards!


----------



## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> its not about our talents its about our capacity. i dont think that we will be able to handle JF17, FC20, AWACS (two different platforms, one swedish and the other the chines one) and a new fighter jet such as gripen all at the same time,what do you think!
> also keep in mind that we will be developing JF17 at home, upgrading it and all that stuff! perhaps that is also one of the many reasons that Pakistan have not yet opted for ToT of FC20! we are talented enough by sadly we do not have resources to start so many projects all at a time, the FC 20 project is also intended for 2014 and hopefully by that time we will have some command on JF as it will be mature!
> 
> regards!



Grippen is also a sweedish AC manufactured lso by SAAB ideally competable with saab erieye and i dont think we would needed FC-20 when we had grippen on our side 
regarding resources the grippen deal was worth 3 Bln USDs they would ve helped us in building infrastructure and it would ve saved us 2.1 Bln that we paid in addition to to US for falcons.Any ways ur right whe one thing is over let it be over and appologies if during the whole conversation (posts) my language became or seemed harsh to any one


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## MastanKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> But still it was a *ToT!* not selling mere ACs as in case of falcons
> .C'mon this is no excuse that we could not digest the technology.ok lets suppose we go with falcons going 10 years from now will we have the ability to digest any fifth gen plane then? if we have to start ab initio then why not today?





Hi,

It takes a lots of courage and cojones on the part of an air chief to admit our short comings----as a matter of fact it takes a lots of courage on part of anyone to admit their limitations.

As the technology is moving ahead in leaps and bounds---so is the distance in absorbing high tech is shortening as well, except for certain items.

We are still a very poor third world nation with very limited resource, technology, research and qualified individuals. Just because we have learnt to talk big----doesnot mean that our bite is big as well.


----------



## SBD-3

thank you mastan ok lets get back to topic any updates on Y-8 development and deployment and how many examples will pakistan produce and out of 4 how many will be chinese built and how many will be pakistani built??????????


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## Munir



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## SBD-3

hay 2 examples good man


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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It takes a lots of courage and cojones on the part of an air chief to admit our short comings----as a matter of fact it takes a lots of courage on part of anyone to admit their limitations.
> 
> As the technology is moving ahead in leaps and bounds---so is the distance in absorbing high tech is shortening as well, except for certain items.
> 
> We are still a very poor third world nation with very limited resource, technology, research and qualified individuals. Just because we have learnt to talk big----doesnot mean that our bite is big as well.



thankyou sir!
the post was very right indeed!
yes it is a bitter fact that we have not the resources to handle all that stuff but also we admit that thankfull we are moving in the right direction! i hope one day we will be able to produce them at home!

anyway as *hasnain0099* siad let us get back to the topic, keep praying for our country and wait for things to get even better and play our part in doing so!!

regards!


----------



## hazi

are we going to get the awacs with the transfer of technology


----------



## SBD-3

yup its a joint venture 
we are getting 4 of them


----------



## hazi

what does it mean that we are going to get it with the transfer of technology


----------



## SBD-3

hazi said:


> what does it mean that we are going to get it with the transfer of technology



it means we are getting them with ToT


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> it means we are getting them with ToT




ha ha!! that nice...

anyway *hazi* he probably means to say that the project is a joint venture and has been worked upon by both china and pakistan but i think that it may only be the version for pakistan taht have some pakistani contribution in it!

anyway i hope you get what he was stating!

regards!


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## SBD-3

aay guys any news on the specs of this brid?


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## Arsalan

perhaps *mean_bird* can post them after finding them of this very thread! he is very good at comming up with usefull information but why dont you ake a look for it yourself on this thread, i bet you will find many other useful and intresting information on the thread along with the specs of this system!

actually browsing through 50 or even more pages is quite a task, specially when you have lready gone through them otherwise i would have refered you to the relavent post!

regards!


----------



## Keysersoze

hazi said:


> what does it mean that we are going to get it with the transfer of technology



So you asked a question without understanding what you were asking? Do some reading and research. google will help. THEN come back and post.


----------



## mughaljee

With TOT, Pleasure for Pakistan


----------



## ironman

*The Saab 2000 is one of the fastest turboprop aircraft in existence​*
In a peculiar twist of fate, an aircraft whose series-production ended in 1999 continues to be selected as the preferred platform for airborne early warning and control (AEW & C), with its two latest customers now being the air forces of Pakistan and Thailand. While Pakistan would be procuring four Saab 2000-based AEW & C platforms (all ex-Air France airframes) Thailand will acquire two smaller Saab 340-based AEW & C systems. The Saab 2000 AEW & C programme got underway in June 2006, when launch customer Pakistan finalised the purchase of six operational platforms.

This contract was revised in May 2007 when Pakistan decided to acquire only four AEW & C platforms, with the remaining two Saab 2000s being cannibalised for spares. Currently, there are only a total of 50 out of 63 Saab 2000s that remain in airline service, with the remainder 13 being retained by Saab Aircraft. It is these aircraft that are being relifed and modified as AEW & C platforms.

In the case of Thailand, Bangkok agreed on October 16 last year to go ahead with a Baht34.4 billion (USD 1.086 billion) programme that calls for the procurement of 12 JAS-39C/D Gripen medium multi-role combat aircraft and two Saab 340 AEW & Cs. While the first six Gripens and one AEW & C platform worth Baht19 billion (USD 607 million) ...

will be procured between 2008 and 2012, the remaining aircraft worth Baht15.4 billion (USD 492 million) will be ordered between 2013 and 2017.

These aircraft will be based at the Royal Thai Air Forces (RTAF) existing air base at Ubon Ratchathani (under 21 Wing) and an expanded and upgraded air base at Surat Thani (under 7 Wing). The first Saab 2000 AEW & C platform for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will be delivered this October.

The Saab 2000 is one of the fastest turboprop aircraft in existence, being able to cruise at a speed of more than 665kph (360 Knots). It made its maiden flight on 26 March 1992 and entered commercial airline service in 1994, a few months after its certification by the Joint Aviation Authorities in March and the Federal Aviation Administration in April. The Saab 2000s powerplant comprises twin Rolls-Royce AE-2100 turboprop engines, each driving six-bladed Dowty Rotol propellers. The aircrafts service ceiling is 31,000 feet, and the cockpit is equipped with a Rockwell Collins Pro Line 4 avionics suite with integrated avionics processor, engine indication and crew alerting system, traffic alert and collision avoidance system, attitude heading and reference system, and a digital air data system. Cabin noise is reduced by an active noise control system comprising 72 microphones and 36 speakers, which generate anti-phase noise.

Each of the four PAF Saab 2000 AEW & C platforms will be equipped with the FSR-890 Erieye radar built by Ericsson Microwave Systems. The S-band Erieye is a pulse-Doppler active phased-array radar operating within the 2GHz to 4GHz bandwidth. The 8 metre-long, 900kg antenna will be mounted on the upper dorsal spine of the Saab 2000s fuselage. The radars dorsal unit (DU) will include the carbon-fibre radome, antenna array, RF distribution network, and 192 transmit/receive modules that will be cooled by ram-air. Each such module will comprise a power amplifier for the transmitted microwave signal, low-noise amplifiers as front-ends for the receiver channels, and phase shifters for accurate control of the signal phase in both transmit and receive modes. In the latter, amplification of the signal will be controlled as well. The phases and amplitudes will be continuously calibrated. Each T/R module will be connected to one vertical slotted waveguide on each side. An electronic switch in the module will select the side. By feeding the slotted waveguide separately in the upper and lower half, the beam will be shifted in elevation for height measurement. This shifting will be conducted by single-step phase shifters in the front-ends of the modules. A module-control databus will provide control of the modules to achieve instantaneous antenna beam-steering and the very low sidelobes required.


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## SBD-3

Can any one elaborate how will it achieve 360 degree coverage? is it going to be the same old mathod of rotating in 360 degree angle?


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> Can any one elaborate how will it achieve 360 degree coverage? is it going to be the same old mathod of rotating in 360 degree angle?




no no, the radar anteena of erieye is not a rotating one. it is in a bar shape, you must have seen it many time. the radar do not rotate but gives a 360 degree coverage by perhaps induction of som sensors at the ends or the bar aswell!
some well informed person regarding this feild may give you more technical knowledge but one thing is for sure that it do not rotate and use some senors on the sides to gibe 360 coverage!

regards!


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## Munir

Instead of rotating the radar the beam can be controlled.


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> no no, the radar anteena of erieye is not a rotating one. it is in a bar shape, you must have seen it many time. the radar do not rotate but gives a 360 degree coverage by perhaps induction of som sensors at the ends or the bar aswell!
> some well informed person regarding this feild may give you more technical knowledge but one thing is for sure that it do not rotate and use some senors on the sides to gibe 360 coverage!
> 
> regards!



Prdon me for not making it clear I ment that will the aircraft have to rotate rather than erieye radar cuz plane have to fly in circles to get 360 degree coerage


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## MastanKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> Prdon me for not making it clear I ment that will the aircraft have to rotate rather than erieye radar cuz plane have to fly in circles to get 360 degree coerage



Hi,

I don't believe that I am reading this---God almighty please----ROFL----

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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> Prdon me for not making it clear I ment that will the aircraft have to rotate rather than erieye radar cuz plane have to fly in circles to get 360 degree coerage



no this is not he case brother, this never can be!! as munir sir said that it is a case of controlling the beam, that may be what i said to have sensors all around the radar rather than just on its sides! anyway a AWACS flying in circles is a bit funny, this is not the case!

actually this have been discussed in detail with some member giving indetail knowledege about the working of this radar! you may find it on this thread and i will also try to look for it and post it for a review!

regards!

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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> no this is not he case brother, this never can be!! as munir sir said that it is a case of controlling the beam, that may be what i said to have sensors all around the radar rather than just on its sides! anyway a AWACS flying in circles is a bit funny, this is not the case!
> 
> actually this have been discussed in detail with some member giving indetail knowledege about the working of this radar! you may find it on this thread and i will also try to look for it and post it for a review!
> 
> regards!



Thanx that would be just fine


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## gambit

> hasnain0099 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prdon me for not making it clear I ment that will the aircraft have to rotate rather than erieye radar cuz plane have to fly in circles to get 360 degree coerage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> *I don't believe that I am reading this*---God almighty please----ROFL----
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Neither can I...

Gents...Please (re)read my explanation on beam control on an ESA antenna back on page 48 of *THIS* thread.

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## Manticore

sirs, someone asked me several questions regarding paf awacs,, they are technical questions and i have no clue .plz help me out. thanks,.


1) In PHALCON, the ESM is totally integrated with the the PSR, meaning thereby, that its ESM suite can also generate the track even if the aircraft switches on its AI, does this facility prevails in ERIEYE also???

2) In ERIEYE, if the bank of the aircraft is incraesd more than 5 degrees, the airborne radar switches off, is this flaw( or any same type of flaw) remaines valid for PHALCON also?????

3) ERIEYE being a vunerable platform itself, What is the self protection of ERIEYE???

4) PHALCON having 11 control positions as compared to 5 of ERIEYE, isnt this difference a major one to grade PHALCON as AWACS and ERIEYE as AEW&C??

5) PHALCON having the full facility to act as C4, and data sharer through DL, in case of ground based C4, is knocked down, is ERIEYE capable of it


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## blain2

ANTIBODY said:


> sirs, someone asked me several questions regarding paf awacs,, they are technical questions and i have no clue .plz help me out. thanks,.
> 
> 
> 1) In PHALCON, the ESM is totally integrated with the the PSR, meaning thereby, that its ESM suite can also generate the track even if the aircraft switches on its AI, does this facility prevails in ERIEYE also???
> 
> 2) In ERIEYE, if the bank of the aircraft is incraesd more than 5 degrees, the airborne radar switches off, is this flaw( or any same type of flaw) remaines valid for PHALCON also?????
> 
> 3) ERIEYE being a vunerable platform itself, What is the self protection of ERIEYE???
> 
> 4) PHALCON having 11 control positions as compared to 5 of ERIEYE, isnt this difference a major one to grade PHALCON as AWACS and ERIEYE as AEW&C??
> 
> 5) PHALCON having the full facility to act as C4, and data sharer through DL, in case of ground based C4, is knocked down, is ERIEYE capable of it



Please go through this entire thread. All of your points have been addressed in many of the posts. Some quick answers:

1. Yes. Erieye actually uses its ESM to track in the rear and aft sectors.

2. This does not make any sense. The radar cannot just switch off due to a banking turn. 

3. Why is Erieye a vulnerable platform? Why would any other platform not be vulnerable from that standpoint? Secondly, Erieye boasts a very good SPS, as good as any others on the market.

4. The number of on-board console does not dictate AWACS vs. AEW&C. The terminology has changed and all of the systems on the market are now known as AEW&C.

5. Erieye is fully Data linked to all nodes capable of receiving data traffic from it. This is a function of the end station, not of the Erieye. Otherwise Erieye can conduct communications over Link-16/22 architecture with any other node.

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## Arsalan

gambit said:


> Neither can I...
> 
> Gents...Please (re)read my explanation on beam control on an ESA antenna back on page 48 of *THIS* thread.



thank you sir for indicating the page number, that was what i was looking for to explain the issue to Mr.Hassnain. i gues if he or aanyone else gets something wrong it is the duty for more informed people like yourself to guide them! and no doubt that you have been doing so!! that is for what we are on this forum,,, sharing knowledge!

thankyou for your post 

regards!


----------



## Manticore

blain2 said:


> Please go through this entire thread. All of your points have been addressed in many of the posts. Some quick answers:
> 
> 1. Yes. Erieye actually uses its ESM to track in the rear and aft sectors.
> 
> 2. This does not make any sense. The radar cannot just switch off due to a banking turn.
> 
> 3. Why is Erieye a vulnerable platform? Why would any other platform not be vulnerable from that standpoint? Secondly, Erieye boasts a very good SPS, as good as any others on the market.
> 
> 4. The number of on-board console does not dictate AWACS vs. AEW&C. The terminology has changed and all of the systems on the market are now known as AEW&C.
> 
> 5. Erieye is fully Data linked to all nodes capable of receiving data traffic from it. This is a function of the end station, not of the Erieye. Otherwise Erieye can conduct communications over Link-16/22 architecture with any other node.



thanks blain2...... ive gone through the thread a couple of times, but the abbreviations esm, pcr,ai,c4,dl..were way over my head and confusing for me used by the indian person who asked me.
thanks again


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## MastanKhan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> thank you sir for indicating the page number, that was what i was looking for to explain the issue to Mr.Hassnain. i gues if he or aanyone else gets something wrong it is the duty for more informed people like yourself to guide them! and no doubt that you have been doing so!! that is for what we are on this forum,,, sharing knowledge!
> 
> thankyou for your post
> 
> regards!



Hi Arsalan,

How are you? Indeed it is our job to share our input----but then when the poster poses that he has enough knowledge and wants to talk the talk, we expect the poster to be knowledgeable and that they have done their homework---. We all make mistakes.

---our poster " gambit' had a wonderful post on this topic a few days ago---seems like our junior poster missed it altogether or didnot care to read it.

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## SBD-3

accept my appologies 
it was missed cuz i was returning to site in breaks due to loads of office work


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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi Arsalan,
> 
> How are you? Indeed it is our job to share our input----but then when the poster poses that he has enough knowledge and wants to talk the talk, we expect the poster to be knowledgeable and that they have done their homework---. We all make mistakes.
> 
> ---our poster " gambit' had a wonderful post on this topic a few days ago---seems like our junior poster missed it altogether or didnot care to read it.



now these are the post which make you a perfext member for the badge of *Senior Member*! thankyou sir!!

regards!


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## SBD-3

Its good to be back
i was reading about KJ-2000 and the site stated


> The system is presumably similar, but slightly inferior to the Israeli Phalcon system with a fixed rotodome housing three AESA antennas in a triangular configuration


can any one explain the comparison b/w the two

Chinese Military Aviation


----------



## gambit

hasnain0099 said:


> Its good to be back
> i was reading about KJ-2000 and the site stated
> 
> can any one explain the comparison b/w the two
> 
> Chinese Military Aviation


There is a direct relationship between freq and physical antenna dimensions. A freq can have different beamwidths on different antenna sizes.

Radar Systems


> Radar Frequency
> 
> Finally, the frequency of the radio carrier wave will also have some affect on how the radar beam propagates. At the low frequency extremes, radar beams will refract in the atmosphere and can be caught in "ducts" which result in long ranges. At the high extreme, the radar beam will behave much like visible light and travel in very straight lines. Very high frequency radar beams will suffer high losses and are not suitable for long range systems.
> 
> The frequency will also affect the beam-width. For the same antenna size, a low frequency radar will have a larger beam-width than a high frequency one. In order to keep the beam-width constant, a low frequency radar will need a large antenna.


Beamwidths are important in target resolutions, especially at long distances and even more crucial with multiple targets.

There is a problem call 'radar resolution cell'...

Definition: radar resolution cell


> radar resolution cell: The volume of space that is occupied by a radar pulse and that is determined by the pulse duration and the horizontal and vertical beamwidths of the transmitting radar. Note: The *radar cannot distinguish between two separate objects that lie within the same resolution cell*. The radar resolution cell depth (RCD ) remains constant regardless of the distance from the transmitting antenna. It does not increase with range. The RCD is given by RCD = 150d , where the RCD is in meters and d is the pulse duration in microseconds. The height of the cell and the width of the cell do increase with range. These are given by W = (HBW )(R /57) and H = (VBW )(R /57), where W is the width of the cell, HBW is the horizontal beamwidth in degrees, R is the range, H is the height of the cell, and VBW is the vertical beamwidth in degrees. The range, R , is the distance from the radar antenna to the reflecting object, i.e., the target. The width and height will come out in the same units in which the range is given. For example, if the range is given in meters, the width and height of the radar resolution cell will be in meters. The 57 merely converts degrees to radians. If the beamwidths are given in radian measure, the 57 is omitted.


So with different antenna sizes, it is possible for freq X for one antenna to distinguish multiple targets compared to the same freq X on a different and smaller antenna that created a wider beamwidth. To narrow the beamwidth, which would create a sufficiently small resolution cell to distinguish multiple targets, a higher freq is necessary, but the trade off is decreased detection range. A B-52 can occupy several resolution cells in a single sweep (scan), whereas depending on the freq and the antenna size, two or more F-16s in a tight formation will be seen as one target. Not many people realize it but whenever the USAF Thunderbirds fly their tight four-ship diamond formation, many radars will see these four aircrafts as one target, sometimes even when they are within visual range.

So to answer your question...If, despite the dome assembly having three arrays instead of two, the individual arrays are smaller in physical dimensions than the arrays in the two array assembly, the entire triangular three array system can be inferior in long range detection than the two arrays system. Can -- not must. To compensate, this triangular three array system can have larger arrays, but that would mean a larger dome, which affects aerodynamics, weight allowances, etc...etc...

With the current US 'stealth' aircrafts, it is already problematic to detect a single 'stealth' aircraft in any resolution cell, now it is possible to have a dozen of them in tight formation, or stacked at different altitudes, and the radar would be no wiser as to what is out there.

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## Arsalan

gambit said:


> There is a direct relationship between freq and physical antenna dimensions. A freq can have different beamwidths on different antenna sizes.
> 
> Radar Systems
> 
> Beamwidths are important in target resolutions, especially at long distances and even more crucial with multiple targets.
> 
> There is a problem call 'radar resolution cell'...
> 
> Definition: radar resolution cell
> 
> 
> 
> So with different antenna sizes, it is possible for freq X for one antenna to distinguish multiple targets compared to the same freq X on a different and smaller antenna that created a wider beamwidth. To narrow the beamwidth, which would create a sufficiently small resolution cell to distinguish multiple targets, a higher freq is necessary, but the trade off is decreased detection range. A B-52 can occupy several resolution cells in a single sweep (scan), whereas depending on the freq and the antenna size, two or more F-16s in a tight formation will be seen as one target. Not many people realize it but whenever the USAF Thunderbirds fly their tight four-ship diamond formation, many radars will see these four aircrafts as one target, sometimes even when they are within visual range.
> 
> So to answer your question...If, despite the dome assembly having three arrays instead of two, the individual arrays are smaller in physical dimensions than the arrays in the two array assembly, the entire triangular three array system can be inferior in long range detection than the two arrays system. Can -- not must. To compensate, this triangular three array system can have larger arrays, but that would mean a larger dome, which affects aerodynamics, weight allowances, etc...etc...
> 
> With the current US 'stealth' aircrafts, it is already problematic to detect a single 'stealth' aircraft in any resolution cell, now it is possible to have a dozen of them in tight formation, or stacked at different altitudes, and the radar would be no wiser as to what is out there.




that aws a good pack of information, thankyou!
anyway at the moment we are not getting the KJ2000 and neither it seems that we will be getting them in near future. for now our dependance is on erieye and i hope they are good enough for us and fulfill all our needs of a modren and reliable AWACS effective in hostile electronic enviorment


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## a1b2c145

refresh some pics and have a rest


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## Arsalan

a1b2c145 said:


> refresh some pics and have a rest



thats was nice!

perhaps we do needa rest before some more info about the chines ZDK AWACS comes up or we get the erieye operating with PAF!

regards!


----------



## BATMAN

China Slightly Improved the Aerodynamic Configuration Design of KJ-200











May.31 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng)  Some close pictures of the KJ-200 AEW Aircrafts flying above Beijing for future air parade have displayed that Chinese Air Force has slightly improved the aerodynamic configuration of tail control surfaces. The comparision of above pictures distinguished the newly-found vertical tails separately added on horizontal tail. Perhaps this improvement can provide strongful flight stability after the KJ-200 crash accident on June 3rd, 2006.


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## SBD-3

BATMAN said:


> May.31 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng)  Some close pictures of the KJ-200 AEW Aircrafts flying above Beijing for future air parade have displayed that Chinese Air Force has slightly improved the aerodynamic configuration of tail control surfaces. The comparision of above pictures distinguished the newly-found vertical tails separately added on horizontal tail. Perhaps this improvement can provide strongful flight stability after the *KJ-200 crash accident on June 3rd, 2006.*




On June 3, 2006, a Chinese KJ-200 'Balance Beam' Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft crashed in Guangde County in the Anhui province, China.[5] All 40 people onboard were killed. The Chinese official explanation was that the accident was due to heavy ice formation on the wings after the aircraft made repeated passes in and out of clouds in bad weather.[6] However, the official Chinese report does not mention the exact type of the airborne early warning aircraft, *only claiming that it was a 4-engine large military aircraft, and some who have claimed that the aircraft that crashed was a KJ-2000 *instead of a KJ-200
2006 People's Liberation Army Air Force KJ-200 crash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Arsalan

it will be more usefull to have an insight on the radar specs, it have been discussed earlier but what if we can have a review! i mean its comparison with the erieye that we are getting!
actually the erieye have been discussed in detail but we have not talked much about the chines system and atill do not know all of its specs and features!

regards!


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## a1b2c145

Y-8 Warning receiver


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## wangrong



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## Arsalan

nice pics. though i think they have been posted a cople of times!

regards!


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## Super Falcon



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## mughaljee

Last night at geo TV I heard by an rtd air force officer, that, now we are using a new kind of spy system, rather then Google earth against terrorist in Sawat. Will some one have news, what kind of that system is?


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## Arsalan

mughaljee said:


> Last night at geo TV I heard by an rtd air force officer, that, now we are using a new kind of spy system, rather then Google earth against terrorist in Sawat. Will some one have news, what kind of that system is?



perhaps he was just pointing to recon sorties by the UAVs! the use of UAV in the battle in Swat is known to all of us and is actually a new system with the PA. i am sure the general Sb must have just pointed to that and media must have made a mess of the claim! 
you know *"jeo to asay!!"*

one thing is for sure, it isnt any star wars kind of thing! 

regards!


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## pakpower

> China PLAAF KJ-2000 AWACS



Is PAF getting these KJ-2000 Awacs from china which shown in the above posted video.


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## seele9999

arsalanaslam123 said:


> nice pics. though i think they have been posted a cople of times!
> 
> regards!



i think its new,they are training for 10.1 National Day parade&#12290;

regards!


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## SBD-3

a1b2c145 said:


> Y-8 Warning receiver


This is Y-8 with skymaster radar.similar to UK namrod AWACS


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## SBD-3

pakpower said:


> Is PAF getting these KJ-2000 Awacs from china which shown in the above posted video.


Nop its KJ-200 what we are getting similar to erieye


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## a1b2c145

hasnain0099 said:


> This is Y-8 with skymaster radar.similar to UK namrod AWACS



Then what about this one?


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## Arsalan

> Originally Posted by *pakpower *
> Is PAF getting these KJ-2000 Awacs from china which shown in the above posted video.



i wish we were but PAF opted not to go for tha heavyier platform! it is the KJ200 we are getting! the one propleeler aircraft with the bar radar on its top 

regards!


----------



## SBD-3

a1b2c145 said:


> Then what about this one?



here is what i got about it


> Y-8X is PLAN's first long-range maritime patrol aircraft (range 5,600km). It is essentially a Y-8/An-12 transport aircraft equipped with a Litton AN/APS-504(V)3 surface search radar in an enlarged undernose radome plus western navigational systems for long range patrols over the sea. The aircraft also carries optical and IR cameras and sonobuoys. One of the drawbacks is that the aircraft is unarmed, but the it does have the potential to carry a heavy load of weapons. Around 4 Y-8Xs are believed in service with PLA Naval Aviation (serial numbers 9261-9291, 9281 later converted to Y-8J) stationed in Shangdong Province. They have been carrying out series of long-range intelligence gathering missions near the coast of Japan and South Korea, prompting interceptions by F-15s and F-16s from the two countries. The latest rumor claimed that an ASW variant of Y-8 (Y-8Q/High New 6?) similar to American P-3C was developed in 2007 for PLAN.


you can see all the chinese AWACS at this link
hope it will help
Chinese Military Aviation


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## Arsalan

a1b2c145 said:


> Then what about this one?



it looks like some marine patrol aircraft! i actuall dont know much about it but that is what it looks like to me!

regards!


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## wangrong

arsalanaslam123 said:


> it looks like some marine patrol aircraft! i actuall dont know much about it but that is what it looks like to me!
> 
> regards!



marine patrol aircraft

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## wangrong

a1b2c145 said:


> Then what about this one?



it is director aircraft


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## wangrong



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## hj786

wangrong said:


> it is director aircraft



http://cnair.top81.cn/y-8x_sh-5_a-50i.htm
A Y-8T C3I *airborne command post *is shown here. It has a redesigned real fuselage section with the loading ramp and tail gun turret removed. The aircraft also features a dorsal fairing aft the wing seciton which might house a SATCOM antenna. Multiple antenna arrays can be seen along the top and bottom of the fuselage, as well as on the vertical tailfin. Y-8T C3I command post prototype first flew in August 2004 and is expected to provide better coordiation for PLAAF air operations. Currently three aircraft (serial # 30271-30273) are in service with PLAAF.


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## wangrong

hj786 said:


> You mean to say it is a battlefield management aircraft, or perhaps a communications relay aircraft? That would make sense because it has many antennae for communication but appears to have no sensors or large transmitters for EW.



trunk communication /director aircraft


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## a1b2c145

arsalanaslam123 said:


> it looks like some marine patrol aircraft! i actuall dont know much about it but that is what it looks like to me!
> 
> regards!



This is a direction or command aircraft


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## a1b2c145

I also have new pictures too


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## Haanzo

> n a peculiar twist of fate, an aircraft whose series-production ended in 1999 continues to be selected as the preferred platform for airborne early warning and control (AEW & C), with its two latest customers now being the air forces of Pakistan and Thailand. While Pakistan would be procuring four Saab 2000-based AEW & C platforms *(all ex-Air France airframes) *Thailand will acquire two smaller Saab 340-based AEW & C systems. The Saab 2000 AEW & C programme got underway in June 2006, when launch customer Pakistan finalised the purchase of six operational platforms.



so has the production really ended ,if pakistan is getting ex-airframes ....if true what about spares and maintainance....and about remaining life of the airframe ....noting beats a new airframe right..so why this choice


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## ironman

I have posted before this article but here the full one.
*Twist Of Fate​*
In a peculiar twist of fate, an aircraft whose series-production ended in 1999 continues to be selected as the preferred platform for airborne early warning and control (AEW & C), with its two latest customers now being the air forces of Pakistan and Thailand. While Pakistan would be procuring four Saab 2000-based AEW & C platforms (all ex-Air France airframes), Thailand will acquire two smaller Saab 340-based AEW & C systems. The Saab 2000 AEW & C programme got underway in June 2006, when launch customer Pakistan finalised the purchase of six operational platforms. This contract was revised in May 2007 when Pakistan decided to acquire only four AEW & C platforms, with the remaining two Saab 2000s being cannibalised for spares. Currently, there are only a total of 50 out of 63 Saab 2000s that remain in airline service, with the remainder 13 being retained by Saab Aircraft. It is these aircraft that are being relifed and modified as AEW & C platforms. In the case of Thailand, Bangkok agreed on October 16 last year to go ahead with a Baht34.4 billion (US$1.086 billion) programme that calls for the procurement of 12 JAS-39C/D Gripen medium multi-role combat aircraft and two Saab 340 AEW & Cs. While the first six Gripens and one AEW & C platform worth Baht19 billion (US$607 million) will be procured between 2008 and 2012, the remaining aircraft worth Baht15.4 billion ($492 illion) will be ordered between 2013 and 2017. These aircraft will be based at the Royal Thai Air Forces (RTAF) existing air base at Ubon Ratchathani (under 21 Wing) and an expanded and upgraded air base at Surat Thani (under 7 Wing). The first Saab 2000 AEW & C platform for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will be delivered this October.

*The Saab 2000 is one of the fastest turboprop aircraft in existence, being able to cruise at a speed of more than 665kph (360 Knots). It made its maiden flight on March 26, 1992 and entered commercial airline service in 1994, a few months after its certification by the Joint Aviation Authorities in March and the Federal Aviation Administration in April. The Saab 2000s powerplant comprises twin Rolls-Royce AE-2100 turboprop engines, each driving six-bladed Dowty Rotol propellers. The aircrafts service ceiling is 31,000 feet, and the cockpit is equipped with a Rockwell Collins Pro Line 4 avionics suite with integrated avionics processor, engine indication and crew alerting system, traffic alert and collision avoidance system, attitude heading and reference system, and a digital air data system. Cabin noise is reduced by an active noise control system comprising 72 microphones and 36 speakers, which generate anti-phase noise.
*
*Each of the four PAF Saab 2000 AEW & C platforms will be equipped with the FSR-890 Erieye radar built by Ericsson Microwave Systems. The S-band Erieye is a pulse-Doppler active phased-array radar operating within the 2GHz to 4GHz bandwidth. The 8 metre-long, 900kg antenna will be mounted on the upper dorsal spine of the Saab 2000s fuselage. The radars dorsal unit (DU) will include the carbon-fibre radome, antenna array, RF distribution network, and 192 transmit/receive modules that will be cooled by ram-air. Each such module will comprise a power amplifier for the transmitted microwave signal, low-noise amplifiers as front-ends for the receiver channels, and phase shifters for accurate control of the signal phase in both transmit and receive modes. In the latter, amplification of the signal will be controlled as well. The phases and amplitudes will be continuously calibrated. Each T/R module will be connected to one vertical slotted waveguide on each side. An electronic switch in the module will select the side. By feeding the slotted waveguide separately in the upper and lower half, the beam will be shifted in elevation for height measurement. This shifting will be conducted by single-step phase shifters in the front-ends of the modules. A module-control databus will provide control of the modules to achieve instantaneous antenna beam-steering and the very low sidelobes required. A receiver/exciter processor will generate the pulsed microwave signals and send them to the antenna. It will also accept the received signals from the DU and generate both digitised video signals for signals processing as well as data signals for steering the beam. The transmit drive signal will be generated by a frequency synthesizer and will be up-converted and modulated for pulse compression (using polyphase coding), and will be amplified before being sent to the DU. A programmable signal-and-data processor will receive the returned radar signals from the receiver/exciter via optical data links in digitised quadrature video format. The radial velocity of detected airborne targets will be determined from the Doppler frequency via combined signals from the T/R modules. By combining these signals, the processor will modify the effective antenna sidelobe pattern to place nulls in the direction of hostile jammers. The processor will also perform coherent integration by Fast Fourier Transform that will form a Doppler filter bank. This will be followed by pulse compression, constant false alarm rate processing and binary integration. Due to all this, the Erieyes processor will generate clutter- and interference-free position data for all targets.
*
*The two identical antennae in the DU will comprise a row of vertical slotted waveguides each with two sections that will each contain five slots providing low vertical sidelobes. By shifting the signal phase from the upper and lower parts respectively, two tilted lobes will be provided for measuring target altitudes. By adjusting the gain, a proper sidelobe in azimuth will be obtained. The Erieye will provide 270-degree airspace surveillance coverage and have an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment. The radars optimum performance (with very low sidelobes) will be over the 120° azimuthal sectors on each side of the aircraft. In addition, the Erieye will also have a secondary sea surveillance mode. For the PAF, the Erieye will be configured for detection, tracking and height finding of airborne contacts, automatic track initiation and continuous tracking of up to 300 airborne targets, moving ground target detection and area ground mapping. In a severe EW environment the radars adaptive sidelobe cancelling feature will severely diminish the effects of hostile EW jamming. Pulse compression will be resorted to improve range resolution, while frequency agility will be used to avoid the negative effects resulting from hostile jamming. Doppler processing in both low- and medium-pulse repetition frequencies will be the main target detection mode amidst ground clutter, while horizontal antenna polarisation will provide an indication of the altitudes on which the tracked contracts are flying. High instantaneous bandwidth and Doppler resolution will enable the Erieye to undertake target analysis via non-cooperation recognition techniques. For detecting hostile airborne aircraft, two mean antenna scan rates of 12 degrees/second or 3 degrees/second will be used, while a scan rate of 3 degrees/second will be used for detecting terrain-hugging or sea-skimming cruise missiles. Warships will be detected using a low-PRF without Doppler filtering. An adaptive radar control mode will control beam scheduling to share the total available time between search, confirmation od detections, and track updates. The Erieye will also include an IFF transponder.
*
*Inside the AEW & C platform will be five multifunction display/processor consoles that will make up the Central Tactical System (CTS) for providing tactical data management solutions via tactical aids, cues, alerts and bookkeeping functions. The platform will also have a communications suite comprising dual HF and five sets of V/UHF radios for enabling the exchange of tactical data with friendly land, sea and air forces as well as communicating with civilian ATC networks. A Link 16 data link will provide automatic clear or secure communications channels via one of the HF radios and one dedicated UHF transceiver. The data link will be used for relaying information such as tracking cues, contact range, bearing, velocity, altitude and intercept vectors to friendly airborne combat aircraft, while the PAFs ground-based Sector Operations Centres (SOC) will be networked with the AEW & C platform via the Erieye Ground Interface Segment (EGIS) that will provide two-way exchange of data between the airborne AEW & C platform and ground-based SOCs.
For self-protection, the Saab 2000 AEW & C will have on board the Saab-built CIDAS-300 fully integrated defensive aids suite that will include multi-spectral optronic sensors and a HES-21 ESM suite, designed for the protection of aircraft against infra-red/laser-guided MANPADS). CIDAS-300 will in turn be fully integrated with Saabs wingtip-mounted BOP-L lightweight chaff/flare countermeasures dispensing system. Designed from the outset as a fully integrated modular system, CIDAS-300 combines radar/laser/infra-red/ultra-violet missile approach warning and countermeasures dispensing functions in a single systems controller. Another component of CIDAS-300 will be the HES-21 ESM suite that combines the radar warning receiver and BOP-L dispenser with interferometer antenna arrays, a missile approach warning system, laser warning system, countermeasure dispensers, defensive aids controller, and a display-cum-control unit.
*

*Chinese Solutions*

*A relative newcomer in the arena of new-generation AEW & C platforms is China, whose aircraft manufacturer Shaanxi Aircraft Industry Corp (based at Hanzhong in Shaanxi Province) and defence electronics manufacturer CETC International have, since the late 1990s, been developing three distinct AEW & C platforms under an R & D programme codenamed Project No5. The largest of them all is the KJ-2000, which uses an IL-76MD aircraft and houses a dorsal saucer-shaped radome housing a three-sided, L-band active electronically-scanned array. The same radome-based configuration has also been installed on a Y-8F-600 turboprop aircraft, which also features wingtip-mounted ESM fairings, and additional vertical stabilisers on the tips of the horizontal tails. Maiden flight of the first technology demonstrator (this being a Y-8F-200) took place on November 8, 2001. This was followed by the definitive prototype, using the Y-8F-600 aircraft, taking to the skies in January 2005. It was this AEW & C platform, powered by four turboprop engines and developed by CETCs 38th Institute that was demonstrated to the PAF in July 2006 at the Chaklala air base.
*
*The third AEW & C platform, four of which have been ordered for the PAF under a $276 million contract, is called the KJ-200 and uses a Y-9 airframe that mounts a Balance Beam L-band active phased-array radar inside a large rectangular fairing carried above the Y-9s fuselage. This radar bears a close resemblance to the Erieye radar of Ericsson Microwave Systems. The first KJ-200 prototype used a Y-8F-200 aircraft as the flying technology demonstrator. This platform, developed by CETCs Nanjing-based 14th Institute, also featured a new tail section, plus two radomes located at the nose tip and tailcone to house two active phased-array radar antennae to provide full 360-degree airspace coverage. In addition, fairings at the wingtips and top of the tailfin were mounted to house ESM and data link avionics. The aircraft also had integrated wing-mounted fuel tanks, and was powered by four turboprop engines driving high-efficiency JL-4 six-blade propellers to the aircraft a longer range. The mission sensor/management avionics suite was housed in a pressurised carbin, and a new integrated digital flight control avionics suite based on ARINC-429 databus and RS422 interfaces was installed. Two KJ-200 prototypes were builtthe first using a Y-8F-200 airframe (which first flew on January 14, 2005) and the second using the Y-9 airframe that was powered by four Wojiang FWJ-6C turboprop engines that drove six-bladed JL-4 composite propellers. It was this prototype that crashed on June 3, 2006 near the village of Yaocun in Anhui Provinces Guangde County, killing all 40 personnel on board. A subsequent enquiry conducted by Chinas Central Military Commission revealed on September 7 the same year that the crash occurred due to wing surface icing (heavy ice formation on the wings after the aircraft made repeated passes in and out of clouds in bad weather). By November 2007, Shaanxi Aircraft Industry Corp had rolled out a new Y-9 for conversion into a KJ-200 platform, and the third prototype will be rolled out this April. All three KJ-200 prototypes were flight-qualified by the Nanjing-based Central Flight Test Establishment. Production variants of the Y-9-based KJ-200 AEW & C platform are capable of housing a 20-tonne mission payload, and have a cruising speed of 650kph, cruising altitude of 9km, ferry range of 5,800km without aerial refuelling, and a flight endurance of 12 hours. The first four KJ-200s were officially inducted into service by Chinas PLA Air Force last May, while those for the PAF will be delivered between 2011 and 2013, and will be called as the ZDK-03 platform.*

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## Arsalan

> The two identical antennae in the DU will comprise a row of vertical slotted waveguides each with two sections that will each contain five slots providing low vertical sidelobes. By shifting the signal phase from the upper and lower parts respectively, two tilted lobes will be provided for measuring target altitudes. By adjusting the gain, a proper sidelobe in azimuth will be obtained. The Erieye will provide *270-degree *airspace surveillance coverage and have an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment. The radar&#8217;s optimum performance (with very low sidelobes) will be over the 120&#176; azimuthal sectors on each side of the aircraft.



now this have been the real confusing part over last couple of months!
we have discussed thatin detail that the erieye have been modified to give 360 degree surviallance. we have got solid links and points to this issue but still every now and then we are getting to read article telling the same old story of 270 degree coverage!
apart from this point, it was a good article!

regards!


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## wild peace

Saab 2000 Cockpit video





Complete functional video


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## Engr786

we have to raise the standerd of Airborne systems above from that E-8C.
Inshallah we will do it


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## Arsalan

if you go through previous post discussing there specs and abilities you will find out they are good enouh for PAF,
working in coordination with chines boudt KJ200 and supported for offensive role by F16, FC20 and JF17, they surely form a leathel combination,,

regards!

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## PakShaheen79

I think even 270 degree range can play trick if we look closely at how Pak-India border is. It don't have many curves it runs from North to South some 2200 KM so by flying along with this border PAF will still able to see upto 450 KM inside India.

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## wild peace

arsalanaslam123 said:


> now this have been the real confusing part over last couple of months!
> we have discussed thatin detail that the erieye have been modified to give 360 degree surviallance. we have got solid links and points to this issue but still every now and then we are getting to read article telling the same old story of 270 degree coverage!
> apart from this point, it was a good article!
> 
> regards!



Sir every where I search for 360 but I didn't find it so help me where it is.


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## sancho

arsalanaslam123 said:


> now this have been the real confusing part over last couple of months!
> we have discussed thatin detail that the erieye have been modified to give 360 degree surviallance. *we have got solid links* and points to this issue but still every now and then we are getting to read article telling the same old story of 270 degree coverage!
> apart from this point, it was a good article!
> 
> regards!


Can you provide one please!


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## Arsalan

well they have been posted number of times on this very thread, i dont see a point in reposting them again and again here. however i will try to manage time to go through the entire thread and locate the posts and inform you by PM,

i wish it helps,
regards


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## PakShaheen79

sancho said:


> Can you provide one please!



Main hon na... Here we go bro



> The Saab 2000 AEW&C airborne early warning and control aircraft is a variant of the Saab 2000 regional transport turboprop aircraft equipped with the spine-mounted Saab Systems Erieye PS-890 side-looking reconnaissance radar.
> 
> *The first customer for the Saab 2000 AEW&C, the Pakistan Fiza'ya (the Pakistan Air Force), placed the order on Saab, based in Stockholm, in June 2006. The first of five aircraft was rolled out in April 2008 and is scheduled to enter service in 2009.* Thailand announced the selection of the Saab 2000 AEW&C in June 2007.
> 
> The aircraft, fully equipped for airborne early warning and control, can also be used for national security missions, border control, airborne command and control, disaster management coordination and for emergency air traffic control.
> *
> Saab 2000 construction*
> 
> Saab Surveillance Systems is the lead contractor for the Saab 2000 AEW&C programme. Saab Aerotech is responsible for the development and modification of the Saab 2000 regional aircraft to the AEW&C configuration. Six other Saab business units are also contracted for major elements of the programme.
> *
> The outer wing sections have been strengthened, as has the roof of the fuselage, to accommodate the weight of the Erieye antenna and its housing. The vertical tail area has been increased to provide improved stabilisation*.
> 
> *Main cabin*
> 
> The main cabin is fitted with five mission operator consoles on the starboard side. The windows on the starboard side of the main cabin have been removed. The cabin is air-conditioned and fitted with an active noise cancellation system.
> 
> The aft section of the main cabin accommodates fuel tanks and mission equipment. Two auxiliary fuel tanks are installed on the starboard side in the mid fuselage section immediately aft of the mission consoles.
> 
> The mission operator consoles perform: system and sensor management; mission planning and simulation; track data processing; asset management and control; identification and allocation. The display systems incorporate digital maps and use high-resolution flat-panel colour displays and touch input display controls. The main cabin aft section also accommodates the electronic warfare equipment, the Erieye equipment and the Erieye power units.
> 
> *Radar*
> 
> *Saab Microwave Systems (formerly Ericsson) is the lead contractor for the Erieye surveillance radar. The Erieye radar is operational on a number of other aircraft including the Saab 340, Embraer R-99 and Embraer EMB-145. Erieye is an active phased array pulse Doppler radar operating in the 3.1GHz to 3.3GHz band. The radar is operational from three minutes after take-off and during climb and provides an effective surveillance area of 500,000km².
> 
> The Erieye radar has an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350km against a fighter aircraft sized target in dense hostile electronic warfare environments and at low target altitudes. The system is capable of tracking multiple air and sea target over the horizon and provides above 20km altitude coverage, 360° coverage and has sea surveillance capability. The radar incorporates an identification friend or foe interrogator. The system comprises an active phased array pulse Doppler radar with a secondary surveillance radar.
> 
> The fixed dual sided electronically scanned antenna array is installed in a rectangular housing, dorsally mounted above the fuselage.*
> *Electronic warfare suite*
> The aircraft's electronic warfare suite is based on the Saab Avitronics HES-21 electronic support measures (ESM) and self-protection suite. The HES-21 also provides a ground-based support system (EGSS), which provides mission data for the aircraft electronic warfare system and for analysis of recorded data.
> *Electronic support measures*
> The electronic support measures (ESM) system comprises digital narrow band and wide band receivers and associated antennae, providing close to 100 % probability of intercept (POI). The digital receiver is equipped with interferometer antenna arrays.
> 
> The ESM obtains the electronic order of battle (EOB) data and intercepts, characterises and identifies signals, defines their direction of arrival, generating and displaying warning information. The ESM system operates autonomously and allows real time ESM analysis and presentation to the ESM operator on board the aircraft. ESM data is recorded during missions for post mission tactical and technical analysis. Information is transferred to other onboard systems including the command and control system and the radio data link-controller.
> 
> *The radar receivers cover low band (7GHz to 2GHz), mid band (2GHz to 18GHz) and high band (28GHz to 40GHz).*
> 
> The digital RF receiver provides very high sensitivity and selectivity and uses fast Fourier transforms (FFT) and channelisation signal processing techniques.* The ESM's wide band and narrow band receivers provide 360° coverage, and close to 100% probability of intercept.* The system provides high sensitivity and selectivity in dense and hostile signal environments.
> *Self-protection system*
> The self-protection system (SPS) comprises: defensive aids control system, radar warning, laser warning, missile approach warning and chaff and flare dispenser systems. The self-protection suite provides selection and, in automatic mode, the initiation of the chaff and countermeasures sequences.
> 
> The laser warning system is based on the Saab Avitronics LWS-310 laser warner operating in the 0.5 to 17 microns wavelength bands. Spatial and spectral coverage is provided by an array of three sensors on each side of the aircraft.
> 
> *The missile launch and approach warner (MAW) is based on the Saab Avitronics MAW-300, which can simultaneously monitor and track up to eight threats. It has four sensors, two on each side, and each with 110° azimuthal coverage to provide the overlapped 360° spatial coverage.*
> 
> The chaff and flare dispensing system (CFDS) comprises a dispenser control unit, (CFDC) with a cockpit mounted display and control panel, defensive aids suite computer with a threat library database, two BOL electromechanical dispensers and six BOP pyrotechnical dispensers.
> 
> The BOL dispenser is a high-capacity, 160-cartridges, electro-mechanical chaff dispenser. The BOL dispensers are installed in the fairings under the wingtip-mounted radar warning pods. The dispenser incorporates vortex generators which provide chaff blooming characteristics and a chaff cloud Doppler response.
> 
> *The BOP dispenser is a pyrotechnic dispenser carrying Nato standard rectangular cartridges or magazines of 39 1in² cartridges. The dispenser has the capability to dispense different ammunition types concurrently*. The BOP dispensers are housed on each side of the underside of the fuselage to the aft of the wings.
> *Engine*
> The aircraft is fitted with two Rolls-Royce AE 2100A turboprop engines developing 3,095kW.


Saab 2000 Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft - Air Force Technology
I think if you go through whole article you will encounter 360 degree figure more than once meaning not only radar but EW/ECM systems also cover 360 degree. This must end this stupid debate of Erieye has not 360 degree coverage. PAF is professional air force if they chose this system over E-2s then there must be some reasons.

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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Main hon na... Here we go bro
> 
> 
> Saab 2000 Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft - Air Force Technology
> I think if you go through whole article you will encounter 360 degree figure more than once meaning not only radar but EW/ECM systems also cover 360 degree. This must end this stupid debate of Erieye has not 360 degree coverage. PAF is professional air force if they chose this system over E-2s then there must be some reasons.




thanks a lot friend,
you really helped it, now let us remember the post number for future reference as i can bet that same person will come up with a similar claim in a month or so!!
well as i said earlier, i will still try to figyre out post from past to add to reference,
nice work, keep going with it,,

regards!


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## wild peace

Thanks budies ,I also find few of the images on the other forum. Some-one posted the following scans which claims that it indeed does have a 360 degrees coverage
Click this bar to view the small image.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a293/maniali/erieyedescribedresizesg6.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a293/maniali/erieye20001ni.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a293/maniali/theerieyefamilytodayresbe3.jpg
http://greekmilitary.net/Airforce/embraer145erieyeaewcinterior8h.jpg


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## sancho

PakShaheen79 said:


> Main hon na... Here we go bro
> 
> 
> Saab 2000 Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft - Air Force Technology
> I think if you go through whole article you will encounter 360 degree figure more than once meaning not only radar but EW/ECM systems also cover 360 degree. This must end this stupid debate of Erieye has not 360 degree coverage. PAF is professional air force if they chose this system over E-2s then there must be some reasons.


Thanks for the source! The key point in this debate is not only if 360° coverage can be achieved, but also how and with what performance?
It is a fact that the 2 array system can only provide full detection and tracking to a specific degree of both sides (for the new Erieye system 2 x 150° is often claimed). Even the official Saab video shows detection only in this area! So if 360° can be achieved via ESM, how good is the performance in the missing areas? 
I didn't see a single source (not only of Saab Erieye, also EMB Erieye, or DRDO AWACS) that proves the same, or at least nearly the same performance via ESM. Janes says that detection is limited and tracking is not possible in these areas. 
And even if we go just by logic, if 360° with comparable performance to all sides would be possible, all countries would just use such systems simple systems right? But the fact that Nato, US, Israel, Russia and even China uses other systems with more, or rotating radar arrays as main AWACS systems, means that these must give some advantages that the 2 array system don't has.

At the end it is also a point of how your threat environment looks like. As you said PAF just need to concentrate on one side of the border and if those aircrafts flys along the the border the missing detection in front and back won't be a big problem, especially if more of them are available.
IAF in comparison must concentrate on several border regions, that's why the A50 Phalcon system is better for our requirements. But as an addition such a 2 array AWACS aircraft will be a good and cheap choice, even they are not as capable.


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## Arsalan

sancho said:


> Thanks for the source! The key point in this debate is not only if 360° coverage can be achieved, but also how and with what performance?
> It is a fact that the 2 array system can only provide full detection and tracking to a specific degree of both sides (for the new Erieye system 2 x 150° is often claimed). Even the official Saab video shows detection only in this area! So if 360° can be achieved via ESM, how good is the performance in the missing areas?
> I didn't see a single source (not only of Saab Erieye, also EMB Erieye, or DRDO AWACS) that proves the same, or at least nearly the same performance via ESM. Janes says that detection is limited and tracking is not possible in these areas.
> And even if we go just by logic, if 360° with comparable performance to all sides would be possible, all countries would just use such systems simple systems right? But the fact that Nato, US, Israel, Russia and even China uses other systems with more, or rotating radar arrays as main AWACS systems, means that these must give some advantages that the 2 array system don't has.
> 
> At the end it is also a point of how your threat environment looks like. As you said PAF just need to concentrate on one side of the border and if those aircrafts flys along the the border the missing detection in front and back won't be a big problem, especially if more of them are available.
> IAF in comparison must concentrate on several border regions, that's why the A50 Phalcon system is better for our requirements. But as an addition such a 2 array AWACS aircraft will be a good and cheap choice, even they are not as capable.



oh come on now dear,,
how can you manage to come up with this post even after all the explanation given,, now if we clear the point of *how good its performance actually is * then the next question is is this evn going to work, or a debate about the platform that will carry it will start,,
i wonder how can one manage oo stick to his views after such indetail explanation?? i dont think the last post was posted by you, it must be a bug in your PC for sure,,

regards!


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## Super Falcon

im sure erieye has 360 degree range but indian phalcon has range upto 400 km and our 450km range 50km more than indian


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## Super Falcon

Radar
Saab Microwave Systems (formerly Ericsson) is the lead contractor for the Erieye surveillance radar. The Erieye radar is operational on a number of other aircraft including the Saab 340, Embraer R-99 and Embraer EMB-145. Erieye is an active phased array pulse Doppler radar operating in the 3.1GHz to 3.3GHz band. The radar is operational from three minutes after take-off and during climb and provides an effective surveillance area of 500,000km&#178;.

"The main cabin is fitted with five mission operator consoles on the starboard side."The Erieye radar has an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350km against a fighter aircraft sized target in dense hostile electronic warfare environments and at low target altitudes. The system is capable of tracking multiple air and sea target over the horizon and provides above 20km altitude coverage, 360&#176; coverage and has sea surveillance capability. The radar incorporates an identification friend or foe interrogator. The system comprises an active phased array pulse Doppler radar with a secondary surveillance radar.

The fixed dual sided electronically scanned antenna array is installed in a rectangular housing, dorsally mounted above the fuselage.


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## Super Falcon

The E-3 airborne warning and control system (AWACS) is built by Boeing Defense & Space Group. The role of the E-3 is to carry out airborne surveillance, and command, control and communications (C3) functions for both tactical and air defence forces.

In the USA the aircraft carries the designation E-3 AWACS. The UK designation is E-3 Sentry AEW (airborne early warning) and the French designation is E-3 SDA. 

The E-3 entered service in 1977. 32 aircraft are in service with the USAF, seven with the UK Royal Air Force, four with the French Air Force and five with Saudi Arabia.

"The role of the E-3 is to carry out airborne surveillance, and command, control and communications (C3) functions."The Nato airborne early warning force, established in 1980, has a fleet of 17 E-3A aircraft.

The E3 look-down radar has a 360&#176; view of the horizon, and at operating altitudes has a range of more than 320km. The radar can detect and track air and sea targets simultaneously.

In a tactical role, the E-3 can detect and track hostile aircraft operating at low altitudes over any terrain, and can identify and control friendly aircraft in the same airspace. In the strategic defence role, the E-3 provides the means to detect, identify, track and intercept airborne threats.

During the 1990 to 1991 Operation Desert Storm, 845 AWACS sorties were flown and Nato E-3s have also played a major role in the United Nations' enforcement of the no-fly zone over Bosnia and during the Kosovo crisis. AWACS aircraft were also used by the USAF during Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan in 2001 and Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003.

The USAF Block 30/35 modernisation programme included the following upgrades: provision of GPS (global positioning system) navigation, enhanced computer memory, installation of a JTIDS (joint tactical distribution system) Class II terminal and ESM (electronic support measures) equipment.

The USAF Block 40/45 upgrade programme includes new open architecture PC-based mission systems, upgraded communications and navigation systems and enhanced electronic support measures. Boeing was awarded the system development and design (SDD) contract for the programme in 2003 and the first flight of the upgraded aircraft was in July 2006. The SDD phase was successfully completed in September 2008 and a production contract is expected in 2009. Initial operational capability of five aircraft is scheduled for 2010. Full operational capability of all 32 aircraft in the USAF fleet is scheduled for 2016.

In January 2006, Boeing and Lockheed Martin were awarded contracts to conduct technology demonstrations to upgrade the mission systems on the UK Royal Air Force's seven E-3D Sentry AWACS, under the Project Eagle programme. One contractor will be chosen in 2009.

In September 2007, Boeing was awarded a contract to upgrade the communications systems of Saudi Arabian fleet of five E-3 AWACS aircraft with Link 16 secure digital datalink. The first was completed in July 2008. In December 2007, Saudi Arabia requested the sale of upgraded mission equipment for five aircraft including the Radar System Improvement Program (RSIP) kits.

In September 2008, France requested the upgrade of its four aircraft to the Block 40/45 configuration.

E-3 aircraft
The aircraft has four flight crew (two pilots, navigator and flight engineer) and E3B and C aircraft have 18 AWACS officers and crew, the E-3A 13.

"The basic E-3 aircraft is a militarised version of the Boeing
707-320B commercial jet airframe."The basic E-3 aircraft is a militarised version of the Boeing 707-320B commercial jet airframe, distinguished by the addition of a large, rotating rotodome containing the main radar, identification friend or foe (IFF) and data-link fighter-control (TADIL-C) antennas. 

The layout of the equipment in the fuselage is arranged in bays with areas allocated for communications, signal and data processing, command and control consoles, navigation and target identification systems.

The signal and data processing is carried out on a high-speed powerful IBM 4PiCC-1 computer.

The aircraft is equipped with 14 command and control consoles fitted with high-resolution colour displays supplied by Hazeltine. 

In November 2006, Northrop Grumman were awarded a contract to provide the AN/AAQ-24 large aircraft infrared countermeasures (LAIRCM) self-protection system for the Nato fleet of 17 E-3A AWACS. The installation is due to be completed by December 2009.

Radar

The primary radar housed in the rotodome is the Northrop Grumman AN/APY-1/2 AWACS radar. The radar transmitters, computers and display stations are housed within the fuselage.

The radome scans at six revolutions a minute. When the radar is not operating the radome rotation rate is set at one revolution every four minutes. The radar is multi-mode using powerful interleaving and de-interleaving algorithms.

The main operating modes are: pulse Doppler non-elevation scan (PDNES) for surveillance of airborne targets; pulse Doppler elevation scan (PDES) to determine the target elevation; beyond the horizon pulse radar mode; receive only mode for passive operation; maritime mode which uses very short pulse width for the detection of surface ships; and standby mode.

Boeing, with the electronic sensors and systems division of Northrop Grumman as subcontractor, have carried out an E-3 AWACS radar system improvement programme (RSIP) which upgrades the capability of the AN/APY-1/2 against threats from small radar cross section targets, cruise missiles and electronic countermeasures.

The improvement in sensitivity against small and stealthy targets is being achieved through the installation of a new surveillance radar computer (SRC) to replace the digital Doppler processor and radar correlator, and the translation of the associated software into ADA language. RSIP installation was completed on the Nato (17) and UK (seven) aircraft in 2000 and on the 32 USAF E-3 AWACS in April 2005.

The AN/APX-103 interrrogator, supplied by the Telephonics Corporation, provides both civil and military identification friend or foe (IFF) operation and instantaneously provides a data set on all targets within the radar range. The data includes IFF status, range, azimuth and elevation position and code identification. 

"The primary radar housed in the rotodome is the Northrop Grumman AN/APY-1/2 AWACS radar."Engines

The USA and Nato E-3 AWACS aircraft are powered by four Pratt and Whitney TF-33-PW-100/100A turbofan, 21,000lb-thrust jet engines, mounted in pods under the wings. The E-3 AWACS aircraft for Saudi Arabia, UK and France are powered by four CFM International CFM-56-2A-2/3 turbofan engines, developing 24,000lb thrust. The higher power CFM-56 engines allow aircraft operation at higher altitudes, extending the horizon for radar surveillance. 

The fuel tanks in the wings have a capacity of 90,500l which give an unrefuelled range of more than 9,250km and a flight endurance of 11 hours. For increased range the aircraft is equipped with an in-flight refuelling probe and receptacle.


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## Super Falcon

why not we buy american awacs


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## PakShaheen79

Super Falcon said:


> why not we buy american awacs



Pakistan wanted E-3Cs but US denied and offered E-2s which Pakistan rejected in favor of Erieye.


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## PakShaheen79

sancho said:


> Thanks for the source! The key point in this debate is not only if 360° coverage can be achieved, but also how and with what performance?
> It is a fact that the 2 array system can only provide full detection and tracking to a specific degree of both sides (for the new Erieye system 2 x 150° is often claimed). Even the official Saab video shows detection only in this area! So if 360° can be achieved via ESM, how good is the performance in the missing areas?
> I didn't see a single source (not only of Saab Erieye, also EMB Erieye, or DRDO AWACS) that proves the same, or at least nearly the same performance via ESM. Janes says that detection is limited and tracking is not possible in these areas.
> And even if we go just by logic, if 360° with comparable performance to all sides would be possible, all countries would just use such systems simple systems right? But the fact that Nato, US, Israel, Russia and even China uses other systems with more, or rotating radar arrays as main AWACS systems, means that these must give some advantages that the 2 array system don't has.
> 
> At the end it is also a point of how your threat environment looks like. As you said PAF just need to concentrate on one side of the border and if those aircrafts flys along the the border the missing detection in front and back won't be a big problem, especially if more of them are available.
> IAF in comparison must concentrate on several border regions, that's why the A50 Phalcon system is better for our requirements. But as an addition such a 2 array AWACS aircraft will be a good and cheap choice, even they are not as capable.


hahaha....

Lol .. Did you read my post # 895. Just go through green text once again. Dear It says "The ESM's wide band and narrow band receivers provide 360° coverage, and close to 100% probability of intercept". How you will interpret 100% probability of intercept notion, smarty?

Why would PAF need any website to confirm Erieye performance in front and back spheres when it has its hands on original plane, lol

For your information building a triangle configuration is easier than dual side antenna of Erieye like planes.

For Triconfiguration like on Y-2000, E-C, Phalecon etc. have three antenna of 120 degree coverage each in such a manner that where coverage of one finishes next one picks it next angle and so on to third antenna to complete 360 degree coverage. (120 x 3 =360) whereas Erieye antenna covers both sides up to 180 degree (2 x 180=360). 

I did not post any comparison with IAF;s A-50s. If you want to listen any advantage IAF's Phalcon have over Erieye I can also tell you that one as well. Phalcon is complete AWACS where as Erieye is AEW&C plat form. Now please search your self what is difference between two?


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## Sapper

<quote>
AEW&C is also known by the older terms "Airborne Early Warning" (AEW) and "Airborne Warning and Control System" (AWACS)
</quote>

WOW


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## hj786

PakShaheen79 said:


> For your information building a triangle configuration is easier than dual side antenna of Erieye like planes.


 Really? Why is the Erieye-style array much cheaper then? 


> whereas Erieye antenna covers both sides up to 180 degree (2 x 180=360).


 That is impossible, phased array radars can't do 180 degree coverage. For Erieye to have 360 degree radar coverage it needs extra radar emittors placed in the nose/tail of the aircraft, or in the dorsal array facing forward/backward. Erieye's 150 degree coverage on each side of the dorsal array is very good, the Wedgetail radar only manages 120 degree coverage according to information released.
Any ESM platform has 360 degree coverage as long as the platform doesn't get in the way of the receivers.


> If you want to listen any advantage IAF's Phalcon have over Erieye I can also tell you that one as well. Phalcon is complete AWACS where as Erieye is AEW&C plat form. Now please search your self what is difference between two?


No you can't, because Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C is just as "complete" an AWACS platform as phalcon. Phalcon's advantage is in aerial refuelling, space for extra crew working in shifts, more space for upgrades, already compatible with israeli communications systems inside other InAF platforms (especially fighters). Now please either search for yourself to find the difference between the two, or save yourself the trouble because you are going to find out that AWACS and AEW&C mean exactly the same thing! 
Unlike the dumbass trolls, Sancho is very respectful towards us and you shouldn't use such a tone with him, whether he is right or wrong.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

arsalanaslam123 said:


> oh come on now dear,,
> how can you manage to come up with this post even after all the explanation given,, now if we clear the point of *how good its performance actually is * then the next question is is this evn going to work, or a debate about the platform that will carry it will start,,
> i wonder how can one manage oo stick to his views after such indetail explanation?? i dont think the last post was posted by you, it must be a bug in your PC for sure,,
> 
> regards!


It's not just a try to make Erieye bad or something, that's why I also mentioned the DRDO AWACS which has the same disadvantage and I said this before too! But as I said, I never saw a single source that claims 360° coverage and explains how and if the performance of the system is mentioned (detection and tracking range) it is always only about the performance of the radar arrays to the side. So if 360° coverage could be achieved, why is nothing known about it, like 200 Km detection to the front and back? I just want to know more about it and if it is limited, how limited exactly, that's all.


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## Myth_buster_1

sancho said:


> It is a fact that the 2 array system can only provide full detection and tracking to a specific degree of both sides (for the new Erieye system 2 x 150° is often claimed).



A indian ego satisfying fact? 
well you know that Wedgetail for a fact has full 360 coverage..


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## sancho

PakShaheen79 said:


> hahaha....
> 
> Lol .. Did you read my post # 895. Just go through green text once again. Dear It says "The ESM's wide band and narrow band receivers provide 360&#176; coverage, and close to 100&#37; probability of intercept". How you will interpret 100% probability of intercept notion, smarty?


I read it, but the green text is only talking about the radar arrays! The ESM talks about intercepting signals. You can detect aircrafts with ESM, but I doubt (till I see a source that says something else) that it can detect it in the same range like the radar arrays can do.


PakShaheen79 said:


> For Triconfiguration like on Y-2000, E-C, Phalecon etc. have three antenna of 120 degree coverage each in such a manner that where coverage of one finishes next one picks it next angle and so on to third antenna to complete 360 degree coverage. (120 x 3 =360) *whereas Erieye antenna covers both sides up to 180 degree (2 x 180=360). *


That is not true! The old Erieye system provides 2 x 120&#176; and the new on Saab 2000 and EMB Erieye provides 2 x 150&#176; *radar detection*! Check Ironmans and Wild Peaces sources, they confirms that.
And that is exactly what I want to know, if you can get the rest 60&#176; of coverage via ESM, what performance without a radar can be achieved?



PakShaheen79 said:


> I did not post any comparison with IAF;s A-50s. If you want to listen any advantage IAF's Phalcon have over Erieye I can also tell you that one as well.


Neither did I! I just pointed out that both airforces have different requirements and that's why they need different systems, or plattforms.


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## sancho

Growler said:


> A indian ego satisfying fact?
> well you know that Wedgetail for a fact has full 360 coverage..


Oh please not you again! This has nothing to do with ego, or indo - pak, just learning and understanding about different systems!
Btw, the Wedgetail has full 360 coverage yes, but it uses 3 radar arrays to achieve that (2 to the sides and one top array)!


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## Arsalan

sancho said:


> It's not just a try to make Erieye bad or something, that's why I also mentioned the DRDO AWACS which has the same disadvantage and I said this before too! But as I said, I never saw a single source that claims 360° coverage and explains how and if the performance of the system is mentioned (detection and tracking range) it is always only about the performance of the radar arrays to the side. So if 360° coverage could be achieved, why is nothing known about it, like 200 Km detection to the front and back? I just want to know more about it and if it is limited, how limited exactly, that's all.


i never meant to offened you, sorry if you take it like that, 
however it was rather strange that you again claimed that the Erieye will have a 150 degree coverage on both sides, makeing it 300 degree in total and rest of the areas will relay on other sources while the post was clearly claiming that changes have been made to original design to give it 360 degree coverage,,,
however, i agree that it do not have much to do with ones flag but the about the fact that how reliable the soource claiming a point is. in this regard i guess you will agree with the content brought up by various poster clearing the full 360 degree coverage!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

> Really? Why is the Erieye-style array much cheaper then?



What exactly you are talking about. Only radar or whole system means including plane and other backup systems on board?



> That is impossible, phased array radars can't do 180 degree coverage. For Erieye to have 360 degree radar coverage it needs extra radar emittors placed in the nose/tail of the aircraft, or in the dorsal array facing forward/backward. Erieye's 150 degree coverage on each side of the dorsal array is very good, the Wedgetail radar only manages 120 degree coverage according to information released.
> Any ESM platform has 360 degree coverage as long as the platform doesn't get in the way of the receivers.


 
Just read the post 895 once again.  But for a moment Ok! even if it get that coverage with some ESMs does it make plane less capable to cover 360 degree? I don't think so. other than that If PAF prefer SAAB-2000 over SAAB340 there are reasons for doing that.



> No you can't, because Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C is just as "complete" an AWACS platform as phalcon. Phalcon's advantage is in aerial refueling, space for extra crew working in shifts, more space for upgrades, already compatible with israeli communications systems inside other InAF platforms (especially fighters). Now please either search for yourself to find the difference between the two, or save yourself the trouble because you are going to find out that AWACS and AEW&C mean exactly the same thing!



Too much wikipedia is going on... LOL 

Let me tell you AWACS and AEW&C are not "exactly" same... YES, they do perform similar function with similar efficiency but it is class of working which is different. I may use some confusing words to describe but i will try to elaborate here what i wanted to say some of differences you have mentioned yourself but those are related to scale of operations like more endurance, more operators, more what i am saying is more than scalability of operations. There is difference in methodology as well, little bit though. Relying on ground station is biggest setback currently Erieye will have viz-a-viz Phalcon. 
PAF's Erieye has not yet delivered but Sweedish Erieye has data links which send all collected data to ground stations where it is being analyzed and then it is uploaded again on the other hand Phalcon don't need to do that as Israeli datalinks are compatible with most of IAF fighters (thorugh comm pods).



> The Argus can be fitted with four multifunction workstations for airborne controllers. However, in service with the Swedish Air Force the aircraft does not carry controllers, instead the onboard automated systems datalinks the information the radar receives to ground stations, which in turn can transmit commands back to the aircraft. In this configuration, the Argus functions as a highly efficient airborne radar and is completely integrated with the Swedish Air Defence system (StriC-90). Delivery of the six aircraft to the Swedish Air Force took place between 1997 and 1999 and the aircraft are operated by F16M at Malmslat
> http://www.spyflight.co.uk/saab%20argus.htm



I just read on some sites that he Saab 2000 is also positioned to carry signal Surveillance, Targeting, Acquisition and Reconnaissance (SIGSTAR) mission but would PAF version have this capability it is yet to know whereas any advanced AWACS will have it from beginning. 


> In the SIGSTAR mission, the aircraft becomes operational immediately after takeoff, performing COMINT, ELINT, ESM missions *supported by real-time analysis or offline analysis both onboard and on the ground*
> http://defense-update.com/features/2008/july08/saab2000_specialmission.html


Now if that is true for PAF's version then your argument is pretty valid as it will add a "C" with AEW role of Erieye making it AEW&C. Otherwise this C only came with the help of Ground station which is a major difference between a classic AEW&C and AWACS.
Hope this will explain a little 

I didn't intend to be harsh to any one but still sorry i any member felt offended by my post.


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## PakShaheen79

sancho said:


> I read it, but the green text is only talking about the radar arrays! The ESM talks about intercepting signals. You can detect aircrafts with ESM, but I doubt (till I see a source that says something else) that it can detect it in the same range like the radar arrays can do.
> 
> That is not true! The old Erieye system provides 2 x 120° and the new on Saab 2000 and EMB Erieye provides 2 x 150° *radar detection*! Check Ironmans and Wild Peaces sources, they confirms that.
> And that is exactly what I want to know, if you can get the rest 60° of coverage via ESM, what performance without a radar can be achieved?
> 
> Neither did I! I just pointed out that both air forces have different requirements and that's why they need different systems, or platforms.



it is there in green text where it is stated 360 degree coverage by radar. Now answer of your question is not that simple and BTW, i have doubts if you would ever get a 100 percent answer of this thing.

I am not talking about earlier versions i am talking about up to date data which states that Radar provide 360 degree coverage (with or without ESM system).


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## Arsalan

well i have to agrr with this, we never find out that weather the 360 degree coverage is as effective as it is in rest of 300 degree or is it with or without ESM, and if with it how effective is it??
the effeiciency of such platform wont ever surface as they are classified info!

regards!


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## Engr786

Pakistan need more airborne radars


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## Arsalan

Engr786 said:


> Pakistan need more airborne radars



wooops,,
bro we are getting 4 erieys olus 2 KJ200,

are you sure that you mean more then even this,
keep in mind the locationa and total are they have to cover and the number of fighter they have to assist. do not only think about IAF procurements!!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> wooops,,
> bro we are getting 4 erieys olus 2 KJ200,
> 
> are you sure that you mean more then even this,
> keep in mind the locationa and total are they have to cover and the number of fighter they have to assist. do not only think about IAF procurements!!
> 
> regards!



Brother are you sure that we are getting KJ-200 only official name came to surface is ZDK-03 now i don't know for sure what it is actually? A KJ-2000 or KJ-200... can you give me any source, just to educate myself.
 
Thanks in advance.


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## mughaljee

Brothers,
"KJ-2000 or KJ-200" 
is Chines + Pakistan joint adventure or just only *we are buying this thing from china?*


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## PakShaheen79

mughaljee said:


> Brothers,
> "KJ-2000 or KJ-200"
> is Chines + Pakistan joint adventure or just only *we are buying this thing from china?*



Well bro to me it will be same as JF-17 Thunder, we all know PAF did evaluate KJ-2000 some years ago but i have no info about how PAF found this plane.

As far as new chinese AEW system is concerned I think PAF will be telling what they want and Chinese will built a custom build plane for PAF on order.


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## Stealth




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## wild peace

Happy Defence Day to all of you,

May Pakistan Live long,
Inshallah!


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## M_Saint

Friends/Brothers,

Could some please inform when the first ERIE AWACS would arrive? If my memory serves correctly, it was suppose to be by Aug-Sept. 09. Any news on it, please?


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## PakShaheen79

I think by end of 2009 means some time in between Oct - Dec 2009. So let's wait and see


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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Brother are you sure that we are getting KJ-200 only official name came to surface is ZDK-03 now i don't know for sure what it is actually? A KJ-2000 or KJ-200... can you give me any source, just to educate myself.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



yes we are, we are getting the KJ200 and system and are also involved in its development! for ZDK part, ZDK-03 is the name for pakistani KJ200, they are both the same. we will call it ZDK while chines call it KJ200!
i hope you get it,,
actually, ZDK is the KJ200 upgraded and modified by help of PAC people according to requirments of PAF!
regards!


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> ya we are, we are getting the KJ200 and system is being developed as a joint venture of PAkistan and china. it is not that we are only buying it from them but we will also be giving lots of input!!
> 
> regards!



OK .... Now can i ask for a source brother. Just for confirmation.


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## Arsalan

here you go with the news:



> Pakistan Air Force: Preparing for next decade
> 
> After facing sanctions for almost decade and half Pakistan air force is sharpening its teeth and building powerful muscles through the fast track introduction of advance technologies to reduce the to effectively counter any Indian aggression from its rival Indian air force. Pakistan air force has purchased four Ilyushin Il-78 MKP-90 Midas with 105.7 tonnes (232,540 lb) transferable fuel. PAF IL-78 MKP-90s are new-build aircraft. Pakistan has ordered the IL-78M airframes and PS-90A engines from Uzbekistan's TAPO and these aircrafts are then flown to Ukraine, where they are currently being fitted with aerial refueling pods and the internal fuel tanks that are now stocked up in Ukraine since the days of the USSR. Second major item that PAF has already purchased is AEW&C capability from Sweden four to five Saab-2000 Erieye+ AEW&C and four KJ-200 based AEW&C specifically modified and improved with help of PAC kamra to meet the minimum requirements of PAF and will be called ZDK03 AEW&C


moreover if you want to learn more about you may google it. key words like Kj200 for Pakistan may prove usefull.

regards!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## PakShaheen79

Thanks buddy, No need for google above info is sufficient.

So, PAF is not gonna get any Phalcon style (with rotodome).


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## Arsalan

no, the rotodome one was the Kj2000 and we evaluted it in the past. perhaps we didnt required it at that time and we are satisfied with the Erieyes and KJ200s
also keep the maintainacnce part in mind, the rotodome type are maintainance beasts!!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

makes a lot of sense... and PAF has this habit of getting best for buck options beside Chinese are always most trust worthy when it comes to military hardware.


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## Arsalan

and bro, if you really are intrested in this issue you must try to gothrough the following thread, this will surely help you:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...f-ruined-paf-project-says-ex-air-chief-2.html
it have a lot of info about PAF going for KJ200 and its benifits and demerits. intiall it is reagarde that it was not a good choic but as the discussion continued, the thread ends with the conclusion that it was a good decesion to go for a combo of westren and chines tech also as the chines one ninvolved PAC in the development so we did had a great opportuinity to learn a lot of things from KJ200 that will be helpfull in future!!

regards!


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## Arsalan

ya, there system may not be not as reliable as the westren ones in some case but there friendship and relation with us is real trust worthy!

regards!


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## maverick2009

Saab Awacs in 2009. Theres only 3 months left to 2009 ???


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## Arsalan

the news was not published today rather it is quite old one. there may be some changes in time frame. i hope you understand the point,

regards!


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## gambit

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well i have to agrr with this, we never find out that weather the 360 degree coverage is as effective as it is in rest of 300 degree or is it with or without ESM, and if with it how effective is it??
> the effeiciency of such platform wont ever surface as they are classified info!
> 
> regards!


Saab 2000 Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft - Air Force Technology


> The system is capable of tracking multiple air and sea target over the horizon and provides above 20km altitude coverage, 360° coverage and has sea surveillance capability.


There are alot of acronyms thrown willy-nilly about. I pointed out a while back on why the claim of 360deg coverage by Saab should be suspicious. In order to understand why it should be suspicious, one must understand basic ESA antenna operation.







An ESA antenna works by the wave superposition principle...

Superposition of Waves

An individual transmitter-receiver (TR) element will simply produce a wave front radially from the surface it is mounted. But in above image example with an eight elements array, the wave superposition principle will produce a main beam at the center of the array. There is a complex relationship between element count and their spacing but that is beside the point for now. Suffice to say that main beam width is directly affected by overall antenna physical dimensions: The more elements, the tighter the main beam, which is desirable, and therefore the larger the antenna.

Individual elements are manipulated via power inputs which produces different individual wave fronts, then the wave superposition principle takes over and the main beam is electronically swept. Currently, ESA antenna design is restricted to flat planar configuration. Shaped and conformal arrays are still in the experimental stages. On a planar array, the main beam, no matter how tight, inevitably will come into contact with antenna physical limitations and undesirable sidelobes, which for an ESA is about 45deg on either side of the mainlobe, or main beam as some prefer to call it.

It is then evident that the larger the overall antenna physical dimensions, the tighter the main beam will be. Tight beams like 'pencil beams' produces highly accurate target information like the usual altitude, speed and aspect angle with respect to the transmitter. So in order for the Saab system to increase from 120deg to 150deg would mean either an increase in antenna size or increased freq employed or a delicate combination and balancing of both factors. But because this is still a planar design, it is very difficult to see how the main beam, or lobe, can approach literally 180deg coverage. I am willing to bet that the 360deg coverage claim is more for puclic dissemination than true technical capabilities.

There is also the issue called 'target resolution cell' when it comes to benefits of as tight a main beam as possible...

Definition: radar resolution cell


> *radar resolution cell*: The volume of space that is occupied by a radar pulse and that is *determined by* the pulse duration and the horizontal and vertical *beamwidths* of the transmitting radar. Note: The radar cannot distinguish between two separate objects that lie within the same resolution cell.


Main beam dimensions affect cell dimensions. The appropriate analogy is dividing a fixed volume into individual cubes. The goal is to have as small a resolution cell (or cube) as possible in order to distinguish multiple targets. A B-52 will occupy multiple cells, say 100 for example, whereas two small birds inside one of those cells will be seen as one target. But then if a higher freq and/or a larger antenna are used or combination of both, then the two birds will be discriminated, and of course the number of cells that the B-52 occupy will increased, like 100,000 cells, for example.

But there is a downside to having a tight main beam and that is when volume search is involved. Obviously...Target information is available only when the main beam impact the target. In volume search another delicate balance must be achieved with main beam dimensions and sweep rate. The tighter the main beam the higher the sweep (or scan) rate must be. Going back to the individual cubes inside the larger cube. You want to produce those individual cubes as consistently as possible inside that fixed volume and the smaller those cubes the more time you have to use to create them. Simply put...The larger the volume the more time required to properly process the volume.

An ESA system will perform these tasks faster than the classic single transmitter mechanically motivated antenna system but is still constrained by these laws. Increased main beam dimensions equal to faster volume search but at the expense of target resolutions, and it is a dangerous situation if there are multiple targets like small fighters. See 'target resolution cell' explanation above. Greatest danger is with very low observables like the F-22 or F-35 where multiple aircrafts inside a cell are seen as one target and its perceived (or interpreted) single RCS could be dismissed outright as 'clutter'.

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## sancho

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i never meant to offened you, sorry if you take it like that,
> however it was rather strange that you again claimed that the Erieye will have a 150 degree coverage on both sides, makeing it 300 degree in total and rest of the areas will relay on other sources while the post was clearly claiming that changes have been made to original design to give it 360 degree coverage,,,
> however, i agree that it do not have much to do with ones flag but the about the fact that how reliable the soource claiming a point is. in this regard i guess you will agree with the content brought up by various poster clearing the full 360 degree coverage!
> 
> regards!


I don't say 360° coverage is not possible, but all sources claims only a max of 300° *radar coverage*, as I said even the official Saab 2000 Erieye video shows detection only in this area and not in the 30° to front and back. Of course they don't mention it in detail, but there must be a reason don't yo think? The only thing I want to know is how else they achive the missing 60° of coverage (most likely through ESM) and with what performance. 


PakShaheen79 said:


> I just read on some sites that he Saab 2000 is also positioned to carry signal Surveillance, Targeting, Acquisition and Reconnaissance (SIGSTAR) mission but would PAF version have this capability it is yet to know whereas any advanced AWACS will have it from beginning.
> 
> Now if that is true for PAF's version then your argument is pretty valid as it will add a "C" with AEW role of Erieye making it AEW&C. Otherwise this C only came with the help of Ground station which is a major difference between a classic AEW&C and AWACS.
> Hope this will explain a little


The SIGSTAR is a special version of the Saab 2000 only for Siginit and Elinit gathering, not for AEW, both are 2 different aircrafts with differen arrays and antennas. Search in this thread, I posted some pics and infos about them before.


PakShaheen79 said:


> I am not talking about earlier versions i am talking about up to date data which states that Radar provide 360 degree coverage (with or without ESM system).


Me either, the earlier version was the Saab 340 which had also 2 radar arrays with a detection of 120° each, the actual Saab 200 was improved to 150° each.


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## Arsalan

sancho said:


> I don't say 360° coverage is not possible, but all sources claims only a max of 300° *radar coverage*, as I said even the official Saab 2000 Erieye video shows detection only in this area and not in the 30° to front and back. Of course they don't mention it in detail, but there must be a reason don't yo think? The only thing I want to know is how else they achive the missing 60° of coverage (most likely through ESM) and with what performance.



no, not again,,
dear have you forgotten the post on last page, they explained the 360 degree coverage issue. how are you agian comming up with the same old idea of 300 degree. the Erieye PAF is going to get we modified according to PAF wish and now give 360 degree coverage...
now i gusss it is the same thing posted in last 20 or so posts, references provided, explanation give..
still if you think it is 300 degree, you are the einner dude,,, !

regards!


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## sancho

gambit said:


> So in order for the Saab system to increase from 120deg to 150deg would mean either an increase in antenna size or increased freq employed or a delicate combination and balancing of both factors. But because this is still a planar design, it is very difficult to see how the main beam, or lobe, can approach literally 180deg coverage. I am willing to bet that the 360deg coverage claim is more for puclic dissemination than true technical capabilities.


Thank you for the explaination Gambit! What about ESM and detecting, or tracking aircrafts? Is that possible and in what distance could an aircraft be detected?
I am also interested in the Boeing 737 Wedgetail, can you say somthing about the radar performance of it, especially of the top array?
Could this plattform also be used with the Israeli Phalcon system?


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## sancho

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the Erieye PAF is going to get we modified according to PAF wish and now give 360 degree coverage...
> now i gusss it is the same thing posted in last 20 or so posts, references provided, explanation give..
> still if you think it is 300 degree, you are the einner dude,,, !
> 
> regards!


Ok then explain to me please, how will it be modified to achieve the 360&#176; coverage? Will it get 1 top radar array like the Boeing Wegetail? Will it get 2 radar arrays, one on the nose, the other on the back like the Gulfstream Phalcon AWACS?
There is only this claim of 360&#176; but no real explaination how. The systems I mentioned above shows different ways to achieve that, but as far as I understand it, the Erieye won't get new radar arrays right? 
Btw, feel free to disagree! I don't want to convince you, or somebody else. I only want to have a discussion about it and get new, or better infos about the systems. But as far as I only hear it is possible, without saying how, I also feel free to have a different opinion.


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## BoggedDown

I would guess attaching T/R modules in double sided S-shape or I-shape array (instead of straight l-shape array) would achieve 360 degrees.

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## Arsalan

sancho said:


> Ok then explain to me please, how will it be modified to achieve the 360° coverage? Will it get 1 top radar array like the Boeing Wegetail? Will it get 2 radar arrays, one on the nose, the other on the back like the Gulfstream Phalcon AWACS?
> There is only this claim of 360° but no real explaination how. The systems I mentioned above shows different ways to achieve that, but as far as I understand it, the Erieye won't get new radar arrays right?
> Btw, feel free to disagree! I don't want to convince you, or somebody else. I only want to have a discussion about it and get new, or better infos about the systems. But as far as I only hear it is possible, without saying how, I also feel free to have a different opinion.



i am not objecting to difference in opinion. I am no one to object as this is a public forum and all of us have equal rights here,,, 
the thing that i am concerned is that despite of being provided various articeles claiming 360 degree coverage you seem to stick to the idea. i am not an aeronauticle engineer who can explian *how*, all i can do is to provide you with articles my professionals that this is what it is , , , and i guess you have been through some good literature by now, 
anyways dude it is your point of view and have every right to carry on with it, i cannot object. however i will always try to convince other members about my point with those articles as i take it as my right to avoid them to be misleaded!
discsussion with some costructive ambitions is always welcomed!


regards!


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## paritosh

BoggedDown said:


> I would guess attaching T/R modules in double sided S-shape or I-shape array (instead of straight l-shape array) would achieve 360 degrees.



in an electronically scanned array radar...t/r elements are best in perpendicular arrays('+' shaped..."-" for azimuth and "I" for elevation) to give an electronically steered 0-180 deg azimuth and 0-180 elevation...for a resultant 360 deg scan.

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## PakShaheen79

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/7272/saab2000ig9.jpg




May this help. I see some thing like 360 in this poster but nothing like 270, 300 etc.


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## pakarm

AOA SIR WHAT IS AWACs/. WHAT I STANDS FOR


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## Arsalan

*airborne warning and control system* AWACS
however bro it will be better if you can search such small points by yourself. all you had to so was to type AWACS in google,,,,

Regards!


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## PakShaheen79

pakarm said:


> AOA SIR WHAT IS AWACs/. WHAT I STANDS FOR



AWACS ->Airborne Warning and Control System
AEW&C ->Airborne Early Warning and Control 

AEW&C is newer and modern term. 95% of functions are same. With advent in technology now ops like C2,C3,C3I and C4I are also being associating with these kind of panes. purpose is pretty much same "looking deep into enemy air and ground space".


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## sancho

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i am not objecting to difference in opinion. I am no one to object as this is a public forum and all of us have equal rights here,,,
> the thing that i am concerned is that despite of being provided *various articeles claiming 360 degree coverage* you seem to stick to the idea. i am not an aeronauticle engineer who can explian how, all i can do is to provide you with articles my professionals that this is what it is , , , and i guess you have been through some good literature by now,
> anyways dude it is your point of view and have every right to carry on with it, i cannot object. however i will always try to convince other members about my point with those articles as i take it as my right to avoid them to be misleaded!
> discsussion with some costructive ambitions is always welcomed!
> 
> 
> regards!


That's it mate, provide me an atricle that explains and not only claims how Erieye will achive that coverage and I'll follow your opinion. 
I am mainly interested in this because IAF will have a similar system with the DRDO AWACS, but there is not much know about it so far. So understanding Erieye can help to understand, or compare DRDO AWACS later. For Pak members this could be interersting too I guess, because with KJ 200 PAF also gets another of this 2 array systems and there is also not much is known about it's capabilities. So if Erieye can achive 360° coverage with only 2 radar arrays it must be possible for KJ 200 too.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

So Pakistan will have two AWACS System in future 
1. Swedish: 4 planes
2. Chinese: 2 planes 

and both are not Compatible with each other so that means two system will have to be develop at the same time isn't that waste of money from PAF???


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## PakShaheen79

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> So Pakistan will have two AWACS System in future
> 1. Swedish: 4 planes
> 2. Chinese: 2 planes
> 
> and both are not Compatible with each other so that means two system will have to be develop at the same time isn't that waste of money from PAF???



Ever heart something like FC-20 and JF-17? Chinese AEW system is for those.

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## notorious_eagle

sancho said:


> *That's it mate, provide me an atricle that explains and not only claims how Erieye will achive that coverage and I'll follow your opinion*.
> I am mainly interested in this because IAF will have a similar system with the DRDO AWACS, but there is not much know about it so far. So understanding Erieye can help to understand, or compare DRDO AWACS later. For Pak members this could be interersting too I guess, because with KJ 200 PAF also gets another of this 2 array systems and there is also not much is known about it's capabilities. So if Erieye can achive 360° coverage with only 2 radar arrays it must be possible for KJ 200 too.



Its stated on Saab's official brochures that it provides 360 degrees coverage; if they provide wrong information to their potential clients they will get their a** sued. They will probablly have to pay billions of dollars in damages, so there is no way they will put any false information on the official brochures.


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## Arsalan

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> So Pakistan will have two AWACS System in future
> 1. Swedish: 4 planes
> 2. Chinese: 2 planes
> 
> and both are not Compatible with each other so that means two system will have to be develop at the same time isn't that waste of money from PAF???



correction:
4 SAAB Erieye,
*4* Chines ZDK-3 (chines KJ200 modified)

nothing can be siad about the compatiability at the oment as KJ200 is sort of JV with lots of Pakistani input so we may end up with KJ able to support the Erieye. even if not, we wil be having a good fleet of chines aircrafts in future and we will rquire it to suport the JF and FC20!
so it is a good decesion, also as we will be involved in its development so lots of new things to learn!

regards!


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## gambit

sancho said:


> Thank you for the explaination Gambit! What about ESM and detecting, or tracking aircrafts? Is that possible and in what distance could an aircraft be detected?


According to publicly available sources...

Saab 2000 Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft - Air Force Technology


> The electronic support measures (ESM) system comprises digital narrow band and wide band receivers and associated antennae, providing close to 100 &#37; probability of intercept (POI). The digital receiver is equipped with interferometer antenna arrays.
> 
> The ESM obtains the electronic order of battle (EOB) data and intercepts, characterises and identifies signals, defines their direction of arrival, generating and displaying warning information. The ESM system operates autonomously and allows real time ESM analysis and presentation to the ESM operator on board the aircraft. ESM data is recorded during missions for post mission tactical and technical analysis. Information is transferred to other onboard systems including the command and control system and the radio data link-controller.
> 
> The radar receivers cover low band (7GHz to 2GHz), mid band (2GHz to 18GHz) and high band (28GHz to 40GHz).
> 
> The digital RF receiver provides very high sensitivity and selectivity and uses fast Fourier transforms (FFT) and channelisation signal processing techniques. The ESM's wide band and narrow band receivers provide 360&#176; coverage, and close to 100% probability of intercept. The system provides high sensitivity and selectivity in dense and hostile signal environments.


This sounds like a passive reception system of transmitters. If there are no transmissions from anyone from any direction, no detection. Passive receptors are easier to be 360deg coverage than an active transmitter planar array. As long as there are transmitters, their positions, ground or airborne, can be estimated. This is 'tracking' only in the indirect as you are relying upon the targets to provide you with their beacons. Ever play the swimming pool game 'Marco Polo'? For the readers who are not familiar with this children game, the person who is 'it' closes his eyes and yell 'Marco', those who are not 'it', must respond 'Polo'. The person who is 'it' must decide on which 'Polo' to pursue and 'tag' that person, if he is successful since this is play in water. The person who is 'it' can call out 'Marco' as often as he like and everyone else must respond 'Polo'.

A passive reception detection scheme is different only in the sense that the detector is totally reliant upon the transmitters. This sounds like a defensive system to help the aircraft avoid hostiles. At the same time, the direction of whatever is detected, by the target's own transmission, can be used to correlate against the active transmissions that is on going by the other side of the antenna, providing constant update to this "God's Eye" view of the scene. Normal operation would have both sides alternately transmitting. But there would be situations where it is useful to have the side of the antenna assembly that is facing a battle in active transmission to provide as real time monitoring and control as possible. The side that is not facing the battle can be in passive detection mode to alert the aircraft to any potential hostile coming from that side. Not a bad set-up. However, that claim of true 360deg active scan is still suspicious to me.


sancho said:


> I am also interested in the Boeing 737 Wedgetail, can you say somthing about the radar performance of it, especially of the top array?
> Could this plattform also be used with the Israeli Phalcon system?


The Boeing version remains faithful to the 120deg limitations created by a planar array.

Wedgetail - Australia's Pocket AWACS


> The most technologically innovative proposal is that of the Boeing led team, built around an evolved variant of the now Northrop-Grumman MESA radar and the Boeing B-737-700 narrowbody airframe. The Boeing/N-G Wedgetail is "unconventional" insofar as it uses a unique antenna design. Sidelooking coverage for two 120 degree sectors is provided by the L/D-band MESA in a dorsal fin structure, while nose and tail coverage over 60 degree sectors is provided by an electronically steered "tophat" end-fire array mounted in a surfboard shaped radome above the MESA arrays. Angular resolution of the "tophat" array varies from several degrees over the nose and tail, improving by a factor of four as the beam is steered to 30 degrees off the antenna boresight. ESM is carried in wingtip pods.


Personally...I prefer to avoid butting my head against nature's limits. For any AESA antenna, the main lobe will be flanked on both sides by weaker, electronically dirtier and relatively uncontrolled side lobes at 45deg off the main lobe. Side lobes signals are most vulnerable to ECM tactics. Technically speaking, there are many side lobes with decreasing power approaching antenna's physical limits on either side, but the two side lobes at those two 45deg positions off the main lobe are the strongest and easily most problematic.

Imagine the horizontal for now. As the main lobe, or beam if some prefer, is swept from side to side, the sidelobes will also move in keeping with that nature imposed structure. When a sidelobe begins to approach that 180deg position, the wave superposition principle begins to manifest in an adverse condition. Remember that there are many sidelobes and despite whoever said what, even AESA antennas produces multiple sidelobes. So what happens, if you can imagine, is those smaller and weaker sidelobes begins to build upon each other as they have nowhere else to go. This is antenna physical limit. This electronic mess begins to contaminate the main sidelobe, the one that is at the 45deg position off the main lobe, and if the main lobe is continuously pushed towards that antenna physical limit, any target information derived past the 120deg position becomes suspect. Already systems are programmed to filter out sidelobes on hostile environments...

Sidelobe Blanking


> Jamming through a sidelobe. If jamming starts to come in through one of the radar antenna's sidelobes, the *omnidirectional antenna receives a stronger signal than the main radar antenna.* In this case, the summing point detects the unusual situation and feeds into the switch to *stop momentarily the main radar antenna signal from passing to the processor and display.* This continues until the situation returns to normal (main radar antenna signal strength is greater than omnidirectional antenna signal strength). The receiver may not receive a signal for some time in this case, especially if the jammer can maintain jamming throughout the scan of the radar. In this case, the switch is "off" until either the jamming stops, or passes through the antenna&#8217;s main beam.


Just so the readers can have a better visualization of the relationships of these three lobes produced from an AESA antenna, an example from an old mentor back in the business came to memory...I need to implant some FLASH into my brain as I age...

Anyway...The reader should take a hand, any hand, and splay out three -- only three -- fingers: the thumb, index and pinkie. Keep them rigidly splayed out. The index finger pointing straight ahead would be the main lobe. The thumb and pinkie on either sides would be the two main sidelobes. Now imagine many more but invisible sidelobes. As the reader sweep this hand 'antenna' from side to side while keeping the finger 'lobes' rigid, it is easier to see how one lobe will meet antenna physical limit and as power is being continuously applied in transmission, the main index finger 'lobe' will begin to meet a sidelobe. Then problems could occur past that 120deg point. So while it is technically possible to sweep past those two 120deg points on either side, because of the existence of sidelobes, even as small as AESA antennas produces, it is not desirable to do so due to contamination and increased vulnerability to ECM tactics at those two points and more.

With modern day fighters small enough as is and with the advent of very low observables like the F-22, this dancing around those two 120deg points through creative filtering algorithms to reach 150deg (or higher) marketing claims is playing with pilots' lives. In my opinion, of course.



sancho said:


> especially of the top array?


The top array is to compensate for the sort of 'missing' coverage area. Caution: I said that currently conformal or shaped arrays are still experimental and that still stands. The Kopp article above has an image of that Boeing and the 'surfboard' antenna have curved ends. Those ends are *NOT* shaped arrays but only radomes for the flat planar antennas inside them. This is strictly for aerodynamics. They are smaller than the main side antennas and keep in mind that output power is heavily dependent upon antenna physical dimensions. Less power equal to less effective detection distance but not necessarily target resolutions as target resolutions are more dependent upon freqs and pulse manipulations techniques. That is a can of worms beyond the scope of this discussion. That mean the Boeing version will have less effective *DISTANCE* coverage in front and rear than on either sides.

I am certain much discussions occurred among Boeing designers and the military as to the importance of this deficiency. In a normal AWACS mission, the aircraft would be in an 'orbit' flight pattern around a target area facing an antenna side anyway so it must have been determined this deficiency is not a 'killer' for the design.



sancho said:


> Could this plattform also be used with the Israeli Phalcon system?


Money talks but I think it would be more like a complete redesign rather than an adaptation.

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## sancho

gambit said:


> This sounds like a passive reception system of transmitters. If there are no transmissions from anyone from any direction, no detection. Passive receptors are easier to be 360deg coverage than an active transmitter planar array. As long as there are transmitters, their positions, ground or airborne, can be estimated. This is 'tracking' only in the indirect as you are relying upon the targets to provide you with their beacons.


Actually that would explain why in the official Saab brochures 360° detection is only mentioned in combination with ESM and not for the radar itself. Also it confirms janes:


> It is understood that Erieye has some ability to detect aircraft in the 30° sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, but has no track capability in this sector.


If Erieye uses passive transmiters in these sectors it can only detect a target if it receives any transmissions, active detecting and tracking seems to be impossible, or is at least limited.


gambit said:


> The top array is to compensate for the sort of 'missing' coverage area. Caution: I said that currently conformal or shaped arrays are still experimental and that still stands. The Kopp article above has an image of that Boeing and the 'surfboard' antenna have curved ends. Those ends are *NOT* shaped arrays but only radomes for the flat planar antennas inside them. This is strictly for aerodynamics. They are smaller than the main side antennas and keep in mind that output power is heavily dependent upon antenna physical dimensions. Less power equal to less effective detection distance but not necessarily target resolutions as target resolutions are more dependent upon freqs and pulse manipulations techniques. That is a can of worms beyond the scope of this discussion. That mean the Boeing version will have less effective *DISTANCE* coverage in front and rear than on either sides.


Yes that's what I thought, so the only AWACS with fully capable 360° radar coverage are:

E3 Sentry, the E2 Hawkeye and Russias A50 with rotodome, Chinas KJ 2000 and Indias A50 Phalcon with triangle overlapping radar arrays.

The 737 Wedgtail and the Phalcons (older 707 and actual Gulfstream Eitam) provides compromised 360° radar coverage, but with different performances to the sides and front/back sectors.

The Erieye (Saab, Embraer), Chinas KJ200 and Indias DRDO AWACS will only provide a max. of 300° radar coverage, with very limited performance to front and back sectors. 

But as I said earlier, every AF has different requirements and specially deployed in numbers, these aircrafts will compensate this disadvantage by overlapping routes as the following pic of Greek Erieye shows:









gambit said:


> Money talks but I think it would be more like a complete redesign rather than an adaptation.


Ok, I thought they could be a possible plattform instead of the 3 additional A50s for the Phalcon system.


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## gambit

sancho said:


> Actually that would explain why in the official Saab brochures 360° detection is only mentioned in combination with ESM and not for the radar itself. Also it *confirms janes*:
> 
> If Erieye uses *passive transmiters* in these sectors it can only detect a target if it receives any transmissions, active detecting and tracking seems to be impossible, or is at least limited.


If it is true that _Jane's_ source used the phrase 'passive transmitters' the quality of that source should be questioned. There is no such animal as a 'passive transmitter'. Once I transmit, I am active.


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## Patriot

I think that one problem is that most of these sources take Erieye AEW&C as same system for all the operators, but that is not the case as PAF&#8217;s Erieye AEW&C are generation ahead of any other Erieye AEW&C system in world and This adds to the confusion


Just for example

Saab-340/ S-100 Erieye has an instrumental range of 450km (limited through software)and detection range of 350 km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment. From its standard operational altitude of 6000 metres (19,685 feet, or FL200) the radar has a maximum range of 450 km (279 miles). Against a fighter-sized target effective range is approximately 330 km (205 miles). Seaborne targets can be detected at 320 km (198 miles), though this is a function of the aircraft&#8217;s cruising height. So Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft has standard operational altitude of 9144 metres so it will have greater detection range then Saab-340 AEW&C.

Saab says the use of new-generation radar transmit/receive modules with 60&#37; higher output have increased the AEW range of the Erieye design, which can also now detect hovering helicopters and track small naval targets to a range of 350km (190nm).

Virtually all of the radar components have been replaced since the Erieye was first fielded in 1996, and all of the computer systems are COTS-based for cost-effective and rapid upgrade. Power output is around 20 percent greater than it was previously, although power requirements, and thus cooling, for the mission system have decreased by 30 percent. The effects of improvement can also be seen in a 53-percent reduction in system weight and 78-percent reduction in floor space. At the same time, computing power has increased a hundredfold.
http://products.saabgroup.com/pdbwebnew/GetFile.aspx?PathType=ProductFiles&FileType=Files&Id=8011
Primary and Secondary Radar together do provide 360 degree coverage although I am assuming that 'High Performance Tracking' and 'Priority Air Target Tracking' may only be provided by the Primary Surveillance Radar.

Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR): Uses Phased-array technology, which ensures high performance over land and sea with outstanding flexibility.

Secondary Surveillance Radar (SSR/IFF): Is integrated with the Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) and covers 360 degrees. The different modes &#8211; 1, 2, 3/A, C, and 4 &#8211; can be used.

ERIEYE AEW&C System

Please see the first graph at the bottom of page 3 of the document above and note:

1) Range = 450 km and
2) Coverage = 360 degrees. 
Source: http://products.saabgroup.com/pdbwebnew/GetFile.aspx?PathType=ProductFiles&FileType=Files&Id=8011


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## hj786

Patriot said:


> I think that one problem is that most of these sources take Erieye AEW&C as same system for all the operators, but that is not the case as PAF&#8217;s Erieye AEW&C are generation ahead of any other Erieye AEW&C system in world and This adds to the confusion


What confusion? Erieye's radar gives 120-150 degree coverage on each side of the aircraft and the ESM suite gives 360 degree coverage. 

*Until we can get confirmation that it uses extra radar emitters to cover front/rear radar blind spots, it does not have proper 360 degree radar coverage. *Something which it doesn't even need because these aircraft always fly orbital patterns looking to one side of the aircraft, as Gambit said, which also allows the ESM receivers on other side of the aircraft to monitor enemy signals without interference from the Erieye radar. If they fly any other way then they either end up too far away or too close to the action. Sure the InAF will try to exploit the areas with less coverage (shown in the map posted by Sancho) but the Swedish, Greek, Thai, Brazilian and Mexican air forces don't think this it is such a big issue. Neither do the PLA Navy who have inducted several KJ-200.

Seems to me that people comparing the phalcon with the Erieye are talking nonsense. If I remember right, according to the reported contract prices of each you can buy three Saab 2000 Erieye for every one phalcon. Its like comparing the Dassault Rafale with the JF-17, if you're going to compare them fairly then compare the price as well as the capabilities, compare three Saab 2k Erieye with one phalcon. In Pakistan's case, compare 4 Erieyes and 4 KJ-200.


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## BoggedDown

Why EriEye T/R modules have to be arranged in l-shape double sided arrays? They can be arranged in S, I or Z-shaped or <=>-shaped arrays, for example Sides= 2X80 + Front/Back = 2X16 total = 192 T/R modules for 360 degree active coverage . Also "signal direction capability" (? I do not know the correct term) of a T/R module is important. For example if a T/R module "signal direction capability" = +/-90 degree than 360 degree can be achieved using a l-shaped array as well.


The Greek Air Force EriEye radar is of Argus version. But PAF EriEye is of a complete new design version called Horizon. Its full capability and specification is not public yet. PAF will be the launch customer of Horizon EriEye radar which is still in devlopement/testing phase.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well , technically 

If , the ERIEYE can't see in front why not fly the plane turn it in air so the side that needs visualization can come in focus , it can't be hard, with support from 300 JF17 thunders to protect the AWAC


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## inferno

Indians are inducting NOVATOR K-100 Awacs killer special missile.
Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## PakShaheen79

BoggedDown said:


> Why EriEye T/R modules have to be arranged in l-shape double sided arrays? They can be arranged in S, I or Z-shaped or <=>-shaped arrays, for example Sides= 2X80 + Front/Back = 2X16 total = 192 T/R modules for 360 degree active coverage . Also "signal direction capability" (? I do not know the correct term) of a T/R module is important. For example if a T/R module "signal direction capability" = +/-90 degree than 360 degree can be achieved using a l-shaped array as well.
> 
> 
> The Greek Air Force EriEye radar is of Argus version. But PAF EriEye is of a complete new design version called Horizon. Its full capability and specification is not public yet. PAF will be the launch customer of Horizon EriEye radar *which is still in devlopement/testing phase.*



Wasn't it handed over to PAF some time back and isn't it under trial by PAF in Sweeden?


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## graphican

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well , technically
> 
> If , the ERIEYE can't see in front why not fly the plane turn it in air so the side that needs visualization can come in focus , it can't be hard, with support from 300 JF17 thunders to protect the AWAC



300 JF17 to protect AWACS? I think you are talking of year 2022.. Yea?


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## waqasjj

*Its must 4 Pakistan to do something to get dis technology*


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## sancho

gambit said:


> If it is true that _Jane's_ source used the phrase 'passive transmitters' the quality of that source should be questioned. There is no such animal as a 'passive transmitter'. Once I transmit, I am active.


No only the quoted part was from Janes, here is the link btw:

Erieye AEW&C Airborne Early Warning & Control mission system radar (Sweden) - Jane's Avionics



BoggedDown said:


> *Why EriEye T/R modules have to be arranged in l-shape double sided arrays? They can be arranged in S, I or Z-shaped or <=>-shaped arrays, for example Sides= 2X80 + Front/Back = 2X16 total = 192 T/R modules for 360 degree active coverage .* Also "signal direction capability" (? I do not know the correct term) of a T/R module is important. For example if a T/R module "signal direction capability" = +/-90 degree than 360 degree can be achieved using a l-shaped array as well.
> 
> 
> The Greek Air Force EriEye radar is of Argus version. But PAF EriEye is of a complete new design version called Horizon. Its full capability and specification is not public yet. PAF will be the launch customer of Horizon EriEye radar which is still in devlopement/testing phase.


Of course that would be possible, but so far all sources are claiming the same 2 side radar arrays like the Greek, or Brazilian Erieye has. Extra front or back arrays are not mentiond anywhere, but that's what I wanted to know. Will there be really somthing new to provide 360° *radar* coverage or not.


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## zavis2003

the directional properties of an antenna are determined by the radiated frequency and the size of the antenna/array. There are simple formulae that help to estimate the beamwidth and gain of an antenna for how much it can cover depends upn this, if these parameters are known. The frequency and wavelength of an electromagnetic wave are related to each other and the speed of light, c.
Hope u realized what i said and now it is clear that how 360` acheived


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## hj786

inferno said:


> Indians are inducting NOVATOR K-100 Awacs killer special missile.
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Has it ever shot down a manoeuvring target flying at around 400-450 mph from hundreds of kilometres away? Was the target jamming it with an advanced AESA radar and EW suite? Was the launch aircraft and the "special" missile facing opposing fighters armed with active radar homing missiles and 5th generation heat-seeking missiles?

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## zavis2003

hope u ..............................


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## Super Falcon

Russia will commission within the next three months a radar with the capacity to monitor rocket launches from the Middle East, includingIran, Interfax news agency said on Thursday.In 2007, then President Vladimir Putin offered this radar, which has been under construction since 2006, and the Soviet-era Qabala radar in Azerbaijan, to Washington as Russia's contribution to a joint global anti-missile system.Putin made the offer as an inducement to Washington to drop plans for building a missile shield in eastern Europe which Moscow says will ultimately be a threat to Russia's security.But Washington is still standing by the missile shield plan though President Barack Obama, who wants to "reset" ties with Moscow, is showing less commitment to it than his predecessor, George W. Bush."As of now, mounting a high-voltage transformer to the station is under way," General Nikolai Abroskin, the head of military constructor Spetstroi told Interfax."As soon as that happens, the station will start combat duties," he added. "This will happen in October or November."Disagreements over the U.S. anti-missile system have become one of the main strains on bilateral relations, which sank to post-Cold War lows in recent years


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## Arsalan

graphican said:


> 300 JF17 to protect AWACS? I think you are talking of year 2022.. Yea?



no, perhaps you are still living in late 90s 
*AZADPAKISTAN2009* have got his numbers spot on!
bro the number will be upto 250 by 2015-2016 only delays can be because of excessive evaluation of next upgraded blocks!!
do search on the topic bro,

regards!


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## BATMAN

Provided no financial constraints and no political hurdels than 250 is an acheiveable target by 2014.

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## Arsalan

yeap, that is what i mean by " if every thing stays on track", moreover the time for evaluation of upgraded blocks may take some time but they will be done with the target number by 2015! Inshllah!
however as far as i am concerned, PAF must keep up with the pace for the first 150 planes but the fourth and fifth blocks must be given proper time for advancements and modification. there should be no compromise on there quality and must taste the best of what is availabe to us in market!

regards!
regards!


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## PakShaheen79

Whatever comes or goes PAF is committed to Thunders as its next main stay fighter. Remember how PAF willingly cut deal of F-16 after Earth quake but no change in status of Thunder program. It is not only a contract but also a very very crucial one for national defense.

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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Whatever comes or goes PAF is committed to Thunders as its next main stay fighter. Remember how PAF willingly cut deal of F-16 after Earth quake but no change in status of Thunder program. It is not only a contract but also a very very crucial one for national defense.



yes. actually the thing is that JF as you stated mean more then just an indegenious average plane.
PAF is in no mood to be dependent on foreign supplier for the medium class main stay planes. we may see foreign equipment for high value and high end roles but it is not to be the case wiht the main work horse. if you take a look at history PAF was dependent on imported items for both these tasks with F7, mirages for normal duties and F16 for high tech platform!! now we will have our own JF17 to fill in numbers and that too with admirable performance and some FC20 and F16 for high end roles. to make this dream come true JF surely will see major upgrades in future to keep pace with rest of the world!!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes. actually the thing is that JF as you stated mean more then just an indegenious average plane.
> PAF is in no mood to be dependent on foreign supplier for the medium class main stay planes. we may see foreign equipment for high value and high end roles but it is not to be the case wiht the main work horse. if you take a look at history PAF was dependent on imported items for both these tasks with F7, mirages for normal duties and F16 for high tech platform!! now we will have our own JF17 to fill in numbers and that too with admirable performance and some FC20 and F16 for high end roles. to make this dream come true JF surely will see major upgrades in future to keep pace with rest of the world!!
> 
> regards!



Just add to it there is also a financial aspect of this program. Pakistan can pump in some decent money in PAC for R&D if it can find couple of good customer of Thunder although this will come after PAF get most of its Thunders but I think PAC can expand its facilities if it good order is there then there will be follow up orders for spare and training as well... So prospect of Thunder is not limited to battle and combat only but to economic front as well


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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Just add to it there is also a financial aspect of this program. Pakistan can pump in some decent money in PAC for R&D if it can find couple of good customer of Thunder although this will come after PAF get most of its Thunders but I think PAC can expand its facilities if it good order is there then there will be follow up orders for spare and training as well... So prospect of Thunder is not limited to battle and combat only but to economic front as well



yes the export of JF is always a possibility but currently with PAC commited to meet the demand of PAF there may be no such breakthrough!
i guess China could have made some to export but they are also busy with there new projects. the JF can see export market some where in 2014 - 2015 at best!

regards!


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## kursed

First SAAB 2000 - Erieye


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## owais.usmani




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## Super Falcon

i think PAF already inducted one in its fleet


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## Arsalan

Super Falcon said:


> i think PAF already inducted one in its fleet



but sir it do not carry any PAF marks. and perhaps the one that you are talking about was a basic plane with no sensors on baord that had been inducted to train the staff!!
howerer i guess Mr. Owais and Kurshed are in a better position to bring an end to this mystery. it will be really nice if they can tell us more about the plane in the picture!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

Bro I think you are talking about this one





Well there is another one which is not delivered yet it has all the sensors on board and will be in Pakistan till end of 2009.
Just for your comfort.... EX ACM is in middle just look who happy he is and very rightly so


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## PakShaheen79

Just to clarify another thing that PAF Erieye will be using latest generation of SAAB AEW&C radar.





Now PAF obviously keep the exact specs of its plane as classified but one can understand this radar is not something like Greek or Brazil got it is entirely a new beast. (Emphasis is on "New Generation")


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## Arsalan

yes Pakshaheen this is the one deleivered to train the crew on plane. it do not carry any radar. the second pic is not pf an erieye with PAF. so the confusion stay there, what is the plane in post no 976.
again, *Mr. Owais and Kurshed * can you clear this for us!!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes Pakshaheen this is the one deleivered to train the crew on plane. it do not carry any radar. *the second pic is not pf an erieye with PAF. *so the confusion stay there, what is the plane in post no 976.
> again, *Mr. Owais and Kurshed * can you clear this for us!!
> 
> regards!



Bro this system is currently under extensive testing by PAF in Sweden and this is Pakistan Erieye if you read on the radar what is written there  only confusion is about its arrival in Pakistan. There was a news item associated with this pic as well when it was rolled out for PAF, indeed in Sweden.


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## Arsalan

that is what i am asking about bro??
everyone see it to be a SAAB erieye,, no confusion in that.
all i want to know is where is this pic taken and is it from the trails going on in Sweden or have we received the first bird which i seriously doubt as there is no no news about it!
i didnt wanted to make a guess but it is creating a lot of confusion so let me asy that , i guess it is the one in sweden undergoing trails. now i request owais and kurshed to correct me if i got it wrong!
more over what there writtenn on radar as you claimed that confirms it as PAF bird. i dont see any such thing, can you kindly guide me to it:





regards!


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## Patriot

It is probably taken in Sweden as there are no PAF Markings on it.I think they will be delivered next month.As ACM said first will be delivered in Oct.


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## owais.usmani

arsalanaslam123 said:


> that is what i am asking about bro??
> everyone see it to be a SAAB erieye,, no confusion in that.
> all i want to know is where is this pic taken and is it from the trails going on in Sweden or have we received the first bird which i seriously doubt as there is no no news about it!
> i didnt wanted to make a guess but it is creating a lot of confusion so let me asy that , i guess it is the one in sweden undergoing trails. now i request owais and kurshed to correct me if i got it wrong!
> more over what there writtenn on radar as you claimed that confirms it as PAF bird. i dont see any such thing, can you kindly guide me to it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> regards!



The pictures are from Sweden.

Final flight testing going on.

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## sancho

PakShaheen79 said:


> Just to clarify another thing that PAF Erieye will be using latest generation of SAAB AEW&C radar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now PAF obviously keep the exact specs of its plane as classified but one can understand this radar is not something like Greek or Brazil got it is entirely a new beast. (Emphasis is on "New Generation")


Or it just means that the Saab 2000 Erieye is the "New Generation" of AWACS aircrafts from Saab and the successor of the Saab 340 Erieye. 
I think you read too much out of these 2 words, there might be some new capabilities, but it could be only minor differences.
Specially if that pic shows really the Saab 2000 Erieye in the final tests before PAF will get it, because as you can see, there are no bigger airframe changes to the normal Saab 2000. So no additional radar arrays, or other visual changes that could hint of new capabilites. That means if there is something new, or different it can be only electronically.


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## M_Saint

PakShaheen79 said:


> Well there is another one which is not delivered yet it has all the sensors on board and will be in Pakistan till end of 2009.


Friends/Brothers,

As the delivery date is approaching, Indian usual Satanism is coming into play like they always cry, whine and complain against PAK-MIL's minimal acquisition as oppose to their unbelievable purchase of military hardware. Their stripping-rhetoric against PAK has extended beyond physical level and gone as far as executive agenda of their prime and foreign minister with Westerners. Now a days, their TV hosts or paid stooges pick on PAK-personality like MUSH to what on earth PAK has been doing with U.S's weapons beyond the usage of WOT? He being a certified naive complies with their desirous response and then Indians take it to the state Dept. to make case against PAK that U.S.'s weapons would be used against them.* With such cunningness, Indian's motive get clear, they are trying to block all the upcoming western arms deliveries to PAK-MIL but unfortunately GOP or any of the concerned higher ups isn't reciprocating Indian conniving action*. For decades, IND has been successfully killing all the efforts of PAK-MILs to acquire potent weapons from west but GOP, people of PAK seems still in a sleep and believing in Indian Gaja/Deception like Hindi/Pindi Vhai Vhai

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## SBD-3

M_Saint said:


> Friends/Brothers,
> 
> As the delivery date is approaching, Indian usual Satanism is coming into play like they always cry, whine and complain against PAK-MIL's minimal acquisition as oppose to their unbelievable purchase of military hardware. Their stripping-rhetoric against PAK has extended beyond physical level and gone as far as executive agenda of their prime and foreign minister with Westerners. Now a days, their TV hosts or paid stooges pick on PAK-personality like MUSH to what on earth PAK has been doing with U.S's weapons beyond the usage of WOT? He being a certified naive complies with their desirous response and then Indians take it to the state Dept. to make case against PAK that U.S.'s weapons would be used against them.* With such cunningness, Indian's motive get clear, they are trying to block all the upcoming western arms deliveries to PAK-MIL but unfortunately GOP or any of the concerned higher ups isn't reciprocating Indian conniving action*. For decades, IND has been successfully killing all the efforts of PAK-MILs to acquire potent weapons from west but GOP, people of PAK seems still in a sleep and believing in Indian Gaja/Deception like Hindi/Pindi Vhai Vhai



Yap i agree Indian Media is just like what you can say "Propaganda Machine". We have seen it in the Mumbai scenario. Pakistani Media, Unfortunately is busy in "meera marriage" stuff. Just look at Geo


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## PakShaheen79

sancho said:


> Or it just means that the Saab 2000 Erieye is the "New Generation" of AWACS aircrafts from Saab and the successor of the Saab 340 Erieye.
> I think you read too much out of these 2 words, there might be some new capabilities, but it could be only minor differences.
> Specially if that pic shows really the Saab 2000 Erieye in the final tests before PAF will get it, because as you can see, there are no bigger airframe changes to the normal Saab 2000. So no additional radar arrays, or other visual changes that could hint of new capabilites. That means if there is something new, or different it can be only electronically.



"The SAAB 2000 Erieye AEW&C utilises the latest generation Erieye radar"

Where is emphasis... clearly it is on RADAR not on plane Yes a radar can be generation ahead with updating T/R module alone as well which don't require any physical changes.


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## M_Saint

hasnain0099 said:


> Yap i agree Indian Media is just like what you can say "Propaganda Machine". We have seen it in the Mumbai scenario. Pakistani Media, Unfortunately is busy in "meera marriage" stuff. Just look at Geo


Please start writing editors, generals, columnists and inject the 'War of word rhetoric' into media-men, bloggers, web-warriors etc., where ever you can. It seems like your GOVT. and army top brasses are completely sold-out along with some Media personalities. I clearly see PAK is about to be disintegrating again until miracle happens.

And one last thing that I don't understand is the passion for participants technical know-how, whereas delivery should be secured at this stage no matter what. IND already took delivery of its first Phalcon AWACS. But where is the rush on PAK's side or at least talk on supposed SEPT-OCT, 09 delivery of the first ERIE one.


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## PakShaheen79

> I clearly see PAK is about to be disintegrating again until miracle happens.



I do hope this is not in your wish list, BTW.


----------



## Developereo

M_Saint said:


> Now a days, their TV hosts or paid stooges pick on PAK-personality like MUSH to what on earth PAK has been doing with U.S's weapons beyond the usage of WOT? He being a certified naive complies with their desirous response and then Indians take it to the state Dept. to make case against PAK that U.S.'s weapons would be used against them.* With such cunningness, Indian's motive get clear, they are trying to block all the upcoming western arms deliveries to PAK-MIL*


*

Yes, my friend, the Indians make a lot of noise, but the Swedes are not stupid. They are not going to take the Indians' word for it. They would read the actual interview transcript for themselves and decide that there is no "news" and no "violations".

It only makes the Indians look like idiots, and the deal will go ahead anyway.*


----------



## PakShaheen79

Abnother article about new gen system on SAAB-2000



> *Pakistan's aircraft has five on-board operator stations, versus three on modified EMB-145s and Sweden's two upgraded Saab 340s,* a service ceiling of over 30,000ft (9,150m) and a mission endurance approaching 10h. The type also features enhanced engines, new generators, additional cooling for on-board mission equipment and a Saab HES-21 electronic warfare suite comprising laser, radar and missile approach warners and countermeasures dispensers.
> 
> The aircraft's fuselage has been strengthened to carry the Erieye radar, while its vertical tail has been extended to compensate for the payload, which provides 150e_SDgr coverage to each side of its conformal array. The Saab 2000's outer wing has also been strengthened to accommodate EW and signals intelligence sensors, and for the possible carriage of a towed radar decoy.
> 
> Saab says the use of new-generation radar transmit/receive modules with 60&#37; higher output have increased the AEW range of the Erieye design, which can also now detect hovering helicopters and track small naval targets to a range of 350km (190nm).
> 
> The global fleet of Saab 2000s now totals 58 airframes. Around 20 of these are owned by the Swedish manufacturer's aircraft leasing unit, which says the type has a projected operating life of at least 75,000 flight hours. "We have sufficient aircraft for a lot of different customers," says Andersson, adding: "Given typical utilisation, they are due to operate for the next 35 to 40 years."
> Saab scans AEW market for new Erieye buyers


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## Arsalan

yes indeed, Paksaheen you have goy it right bro. it was stated by vaarious sources that the Erieye radar that we are getting have been extensively modified according to PAF requirment. among these modifications was the upgradation of radar to give it a full 360 degree coverage and extra sensors were als integrated. SAAB is also looking forward to explore further export markets for Erieye SAAB-2000!
so it can be concluede that the system that we will be getting is a real solid step in strengthening our air space from any miss adventure!

regards!


----------



## M_Saint

PakShaheen79 said:


> I do hope this is not in your wish list, BTW.



If that were in my wish list then I wouldn't give up the 'Global Moderator ship' of a Bangladeshi forum on principled ground, where rational support of PAK's stance earned me a name called 'RAZAKAR' i.e. Traitor to Bangladeshi emotionals. Furthermore, you probably noticed in my posts that I divulged 'PAK's existencial secret' by taking personal risk, thanks

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## PakShaheen79

M_Saint said:


> If that were in my wish list then I wouldn't give up the 'Global Moderator ship' of a Bangladeshi forum on principled ground, where rational support of PAK's stance earned me a name called 'RAZAKAR' i.e. Traitor to Bangladeshi emotionals. Furthermore, you probably noticed in my posts that I divulged 'PAK's existencial secret' by taking personal risk, thanks


Thanks for clearing it up.  Nice to know you.


----------



## sancho

PakShaheen79 said:


> Abnother article about new gen system on SAAB-2000


That's what I meant, the radar system in improved from the old Saab 340 AWACS (450Km range now, instead of 350Km, radar arrays provides detection now in an area of 150° instead of 120° before), so the Saab 2000 Erieye is not only a new plattform, but aswell a new generation of the Erieye system. But the same capabilities are also known for Embraer Erieye!



> The EMB 145 AEW&C performs these tasks with excellent results. *With an instrumented range of 450 km*, the AEW radar will detect and track targets long before they may become a threat.



Embraer Defense Systems

So hat is not a new capability that PAFs Erieye will get compared to the Embraer Erieye of Brazil, Greek, or Mexico. 

Again I am not denying that your Erieye is not more improved, I just want to know what will be new and how it will be achieved.


----------



## sancho

@ arsalanaslam123

As you still seems to missunderstand why I have doubts about the 360° *radar* coverage of Erieye let me try to explain it in a different way.

The Dassault Rafale in the latest version uses the RBE 2 AA AESA radar. This radar is in the nose, pointed to the front and offers detection and tracking in an area of 120°. It is able to detect fighters at distances of 75 nm/138,9 KM, the tracking range is 60nm / 111,12Km. It is able to track 40 targets at the same time and engage 8 of them. So far about the radar capabilities, but the Rafale offers more! 
It also has the Spectra EWS, which is an integrated self-defense suite (or Electronic Counter Measure) that combines several sensors to detect and warn about hostile radars, missiles, and lasers. And here comes the most interesting point, *it offers 360° coverage*!
Other features are:


> passive, all-weather reliable, long-range detection, identification and geographical location of threats in the infrared, electromagnectic and electro-optical ranges. It uses short response times and cutting-edge defensive measures based on a combination of jamming, decoying and evasive maneuvers and technologies, such as Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) for signal processing...
> The angular localization performance of Spectra makes it possible to precisely discover ground threats and to target them for immediate destruction with precision-guided munitions. In this totally passive mode, Spectra is also used as a general awareness and intelligence reporting system.


Avionics Magazine :: Serious Squall


Let me point out the main points of Rafale and Erieye again:

*Radar system performance Rafale:*
- active electronically scanned array radar
- 138,9 Km range
- can detect and track air and ground targets in an area of 120° to the front
- uses phased array antennas for IFF


*Radar system performance Erieye:*


>  Active Phased Array Pulse Doppler multi-mode radar
>  450 km range and above 20 km (65,000 ft) altitude coverage
>  Effective surveillance area of 500,000 sq km
>  Capable of combined air and sea surveillance
>  Automatic tracking of priority air targets
>  Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system


Saab - Products A-Z

- detection and tracking to an area of 150° to both sides


*EWS/ECM performance Rafale:*
- 360° coverage
- Radar, missile and laser warning
- engaging by jaming, or using chaff and flares


*ESM system performance Erieye:*


>  *360º azimuth coverage*
>  High sensitivity
>  Wide band
>  High accuracy
>  *Radar warning*
>  SPS control/management
>  *Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), chaff and flares*
>  *SPS also features Missile Approach Warning
> (MAW), Laser Warning System (LWS) and
> optional ESM and Integrated Defensive Aids Suite
> (IDAS) with selection of low/medium/high bands*




As you can see in both cases the *radar* don't provide 360° coverage, it only provides coverage in the area where the radar arrays are.
But 360° coverage is available in both cases for ESM, or ECM which is pretty much the same (detecting and engaging radar, missiles and laser threats), but has nothing to do with the performance of the radar!

As I pointed out earlier, if PAF's new Erieye really is more improved that the Greek/Brazil Erieye system and achieves 360° radar coverage, there must be more radar arrays (like the Etiam Phalcon, or the Boeing Wedgetail), or something else that is new. But the latest pics that were posted here, don't show any changes on the airframe that could hint to such capabilities.
That's why I have some doubt about it so far and asks for other explainations, how that could be achieved.

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## Arsalan

well sancho brother, i got your PM. i really appreciate your effort to approach a member (which in this case was me) to clear things.
thanks,,
i never meant to put the blame on you that you are being biased while commenting on the OAF new procurement of SAAB-2000 Erieye syste, all i did was to point you to the fact that you were taking parts of information to support your claim about CM detection range from the same brousher from which you were not willing to accept the 360 degree coverage.
as far as tell you how this is possible, i have already admitted my inability to do so as i am not professional in this stuff. all i can present are sources thatn claim it to be like this,,
moreover i hope you also dont hope to see any such information on internet that how did they acheive it. i am satisfied from the claim made by many sources about the 360 degree coverage angel do not have enough knowledge to say whether it is only for ECM or they have also acheived it with the radar.
i know it sounds a bit impossible in the light of discussion and technical information about its working posted by you and gambit but then, who would have imagined a plane flying in air and not be detected by latest of radars a few years back, now we have F22 and F35!! i mean i may have be done, how,, i am sorry for having no answer!!

anyway bro thanks for your response and keep up with the good work, i guess we can find many other topics which we can debate on!!

thanks,
regards!


----------



## PakShaheen79

As i have said it before keeping Indo-Pak border topography it is not necessary for Erieye to have complete 360 degree coverage. Still objective of looking deep into Indian territory can be achieved. 

still doing so, Its EW suite can detect any ECM/ECCM activities in 360 degree that is sufficient for its on defense and any jamming attempt made by hostile platform on land or in air.

Radar coverage of Pakistani model is still a mystery at best.


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## Arsalan

yes,,
i second that PakSaheen!
specially the mystery part!! 
well as far as my understanding of the subject is concerned, even the 150 degree coverage will do the job as the plane have to fly along the border which is a pretty straight one and stil keep an eye on activities across the border. perhaps Gambit can shed some light on it!

regards!


----------



## BoggedDown

Even if we agree for shake of discussion that EriEye one side array has tracking capabilities of 150 degrees. But ESM has 360 degree detection capabilities. So after the early detection of boggies at 12 or 6 O' clock by ESM, the plane can make a small correction of its course so the array T/R modules can focus for tracking them. At most the plan need a turn of 15 degrees left or right for tracking boggies at front or back. Also if you see Pak-India border it is not a straight line, so careful plan of flight path in zig zag shape or arc shape along the border will minimise any dark spots if any.

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## Haanzo

> Even if we agree for shake of discussion that EriEye one side array has tracking capabilities of 150 degrees. But ESM has 360 degree detection capabilities. So after the early detection of boggies at 12 or 6 O' clock by ESM, the plane can make a small correction of its course so the array T/R modules can focus for tracking them. At most the plan need a turn of 15 degrees left or right for tracking boggies at front or back. Also if you see Pak-India border it is not a straight line, so careful plan of flight path in zig zag shape or arc shape along the border will minimise any dark spots if any.



atlast someone is speaking logic ---mate you are absolutely spot on in your analysis 

---------- Post added at 04:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 AM ----------




> Even if we agree for shake of discussion that EriEye one side array has tracking capabilities of 150 degrees. But ESM has 360 degree detection capabilities. So after the early detection of boggies at 12 or 6 O' clock by ESM, the plane can make a small correction of its course so the array T/R modules can focus for tracking them. At most the plan need a turn of 15 degrees left or right for tracking boggies at front or back. Also if you see Pak-India border it is not a straight line, so careful plan of flight path in zig zag shape or arc shape along the border will minimise any dark spots if any.



atlast someone is speaking logic ---mate you are absolutely spot on in your analysis


----------



## sancho

PakShaheen79 said:


> As i have said it before keeping Indo-Pak border topography it is not necessary for Erieye to have complete 360 degree coverage. Still objective of looking deep into Indian territory can be achieved.
> 
> still doing so, Its EW suite can detect any ECM/ECCM activities in 360 degree that is sufficient for its on defense and any jamming attempt made by hostile platform on land or in air.
> 
> Radar coverage of Pakistani model is still a mystery at best.


That's right, even with 300° coverage it will be a clear improvement for PAF, no doubt about that.


BoggedDown said:


> Even if we agree for shake of discussion that EriEye one side array has tracking capabilities of 150 degrees. *But ESM has 360 degree detection capabilities. So after the early detection of boggies at 12 or 6 O' clock by ESM*, the plane can make a small correction of its course so the array T/R modules can focus for tracking them. At most the plan need a turn of 15 degrees left or right for tracking boggies at front or back. Also if you see Pak-India border it is not a straight line, so careful plan of flight path in zig zag shape or arc shape along the border will minimise any dark spots if any.


Would't it be more a late detection? I don't expect the ESM will detect fighters in ranges like the real radar can, so from 12, or 6 a fighter might come much closer before the ESM will detect it. But as you said you can counter that with zig zag routes, or as I showed with the pic of Greek Erieye, by overlapping the routes of 2 Awacs aircrafts.


----------



## kursed

Actually ESM (SIGINT) can pick up a fighter before the radar can.


----------



## gambit

> sancho said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's right, even with 300° coverage it will be a clear improvement for PAF, no doubt about that.
> 
> Would't it be more a late detection? I don't expect the ESM will detect fighters in ranges like the real radar can, so from 12, or 6 a fighter might come much closer before the ESM will detect it. But as you said you can counter that with zig zag routes, or as I showed with the pic of Greek Erieye, by overlapping the routes of 2 Awacs aircrafts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kursed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually *ESM (SIGINT) can pick up a fighter before the radar can*.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Incorrect...Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) works only when there are transmissions in the area *AND* only if those transmissions are within the detection capabilities of the RWR system, meaning if the enemy's radar transmsison freqs are outside of the receiver's capabilities, it will not 'detect' anything. That said...It is very rare that any fighter's radar freqs are outside of the receiver's capabilities. Very very rare. You would have to have a gross mismatch like Korean War vintage versus Desert Storm equipments.

That leave only transmission power, meaning it is possible for a fighter's radar to have a longer reach than the AWACS' own radar, but this is so remote it borders on the absurd since radar effective distance is possible from antenna size. Larger antenna equals to longer effective detection distance and an AWACS usually have antennas that are several times larger than a fighter's. So an AWACS's active radar operation will detect a fighter, in terms of distance, further away than if the AWACS aircraft rely on passive detection alone.

Try to imagine the AWACS in active operation with a reach of 400km, for example. Now imagine a fighter whose radar can only reach 200km. Now imagine the AWACS flying in passive detection only. That mean instead of detecting the hostile fighter at around 350-400km, the AWACS in passive detection mode must wait until the fighter's radar pulses impact its antenna at 200km distance or less. That is not good. Your threat is half way to you, in a manner of speaking, in passive instead of active detection.


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## Arsalan

sancho said:


> That's right, even with 300° coverage it will be a clear improvement for PAF, no doubt about that.
> 
> Would't it be more a late detection? I don't expect the ESM will detect fighters in ranges like the real radar can, so from 12, or 6 a fighter might come much closer before the ESM will detect it. But as you said you can counter that with zig zag routes, or as I showed with the pic of Greek Erieye, by overlapping the routes of 2 Awacs aircrafts.



yes, the ECM wont be detecting the planes at such a large distance  but still as stated earlier, if for sake of healthy discussion, we do agree that the radar coverage will be of 150 degree, still the geographic characteristics of Pak-India border can still be covered with this 150 degree amgle. speciall keeping in mind that there will be some 8 systems to do this job,,

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

This also leads to another idea... that in peace time it will be a targeted surveillance using Erieye.


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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> This also leads to another idea... that in peace time it will be a targeted surveillance using Erieye.



sorry bor but i didnt got your point,,
can you please explain what you meant to say!!

regards!


----------



## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sorry bor but i didnt got your point,,
> can you please explain what you meant to say!!
> 
> regards!



I meant during peace time our surveillance assets will be focused mainly on Western fronts to counter Taliban and active parts of Indian Borders like LoC. But that all depends how PAF devise a doctrine regarding usage of these assets.


----------



## wangrong




----------



## PakShaheen79

Some time I do wounder how come Chinese always come with a replica of top European products just in few years?

Can anybody tell me when did China start work on ZDK-03 project?


----------



## ice_man

replica is not the issue but how GOOD is the replica is question....if it is half as good as a EREIYE then that would make the world sit up and take notice!!


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

october has started my dear fellows,where is our SAAB 2000 ERIEYE.
do anyone have any picture of these.?


----------



## Adios Amigo

danger-zone said:


> october has started my dear fellows,where is our SAAB 2000 ERIEYE.
> do anyone have any picture of these.?



wait for a few more days and InshAllah you will be seeing SAAB 2000 ERIEYE, first thunder rolling out of PAC, and many more good news in october.
regards


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

adeos amigo said:


> wait for a few more days and InshAllah you will be seeing SAAB 2000 ERIEYE, first thunder rolling out of PAC, and many more good news in october.
> regards



yaaa im waiting .
but y didnt sweden released the pix of erieye in pak camo,like israeal released the indians awacs pix and usa released paf f16 pix at lejas.?
well still im  searching for it on google.


----------



## hj786

Provided by H. Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium.

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## PakShaheen79

Inshallah very soon it will be part of PAF. One long awaited dream is going to be fulfilled. Congratulations to every one here.

 I know it is little too early but can't control my emotions.


----------



## hassan1

Here's photo of PAF Saab 2000 (serial# J019) at Chaklala Air Base, Rawalpindi.
http://img132.imageshack.us/i/j0192mar15.jpg/


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

hj786 said:


> Provided by H. Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium.



thanx but it not painted in pak colours.
well it looks a little different from normal saab eireye.is that hardpoint on its wingtip ?


----------



## SBD-3

danger-zone said:


> thanx but it not painted in pak colours.
> well it looks a little different from normal saab eireye.is that hardpoint on its wingtip ?



it is an advanced sensor that collects the radar signatures of incoming aircrafts so that the energy of radar can be concentrated in right direction


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> it is an advanced sensor that collects the radar signatures of incoming aircrafts so that the energy of radar can be concentrated in right direction



I think these are some kind of EW / ECM sensors.


----------



## wangrong




----------



## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think these are some kind of EW / ECM sensors.


 here you can see what do they do

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## ice_man

when are the Chinese AWACS coming in....?? any date mentioned any agreement signed??


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## abbasniazi

We have to wait for its arrival and induction in PAF, only then we can analyse how it is operated, integrated and benificial to our airforce.

it would be interesting to see how it links itself with western fighter like F-16 Block 52+ , Mirage ROSE upgrades and Chinese JF-17 simultaneously.

we also have to see whether the current number would be sufficient to provide us 24*7 surveylance for the whole country or it would leave gaps for the enemy to exploit.

i think the acquisition of ZDK3 is because it might be difficult to integrate SAAB erieye with JF-17s.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## PakShaheen79

abbasniazi said:


> We have to wait for its arrival and induction in PAF, only then we can analyse how it is operated, integrated and benificial to our airforce.
> 
> it would be interesting to see how it links itself with western fighter like F-16 Block 52+ , Mirage ROSE upgrades and Chinese JF-17 simultaneously.
> 
> we also have to see whether the current number would be sufficient to provide us 24*7 surveylance for the whole country or it would leave gaps for the enemy to exploit.
> 
> *i think the acquisition of ZDK3 is because it might be difficult to integrate SAAB erieye with JF-17s*.



I think FC-20 are more of a reason than JF-17 as Thunders will get some Western Avionics after first 50. May be financial feasibility is another thing along with some kind of know how about ZDK-03 which will be not available in case of Erieye.


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## wangrong



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## TaimiKhan

Getting better day by day, the cockpit looks awesome. 4-blade propellers changed to 6 blades. Hope so the radar system will get awesome too.


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## Myth_buster_1

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think FC-20 are more of a reason than JF-17 as Thunders will get some Western Avionics after first 50. May be financial feasibility is another thing along with some kind of know how about ZDK-03 which will be not available in case of Erieye.



I am sure PAF is looking towards France or other european country who is willing to provide link 14 system to be integrated with JF-17 FC-20 and zdk-03. Infact its FC-20 which will be more of western system then JF-17.


----------



## PakShaheen79

Growler said:


> I am sure PAF is looking towards France or other european country who is willing to provide link 14 system to be integrated with JF-17 FC-20 and zdk-03. *Infact its FC-20 which will be more of western system then JF-17*.



Highly doubt that one. I dont think China will allow West to see where it is in aviation by letting some Western engineers to upgrade its own primary fighter.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

PakShaheen79 said:


> Highly doubt that one. I dont think China will allow West to see where it is in aviation by letting some Western engineers to upgrade its own primary fighter.



 Western engineers already took better look in Chinese fighter during the cold war era when China was 10 times more secretive. F-6 is the prime example when USAF personals helped PAF integrate heat seekers, and work was not as simple as attaching to pylons. Another thing, like i have said earlier J-10B is a export product like FC-1 which are not going to be used domestically or either the domestic version will be different from ours. So I dont think china should have much of a problem.


----------



## PakShaheen79

Growler said:


> Western engineers already took better look in Chinese fighter during the cold war era when China was 10 times more secretive. F-6 is the prime example when USAF personals helped PAF integrate heat seekers, and work was not as simple as attaching to pylons. Another thing, like* i have said earlier J-10B is a export product like FC-1 which are not going to be used domestically or either the domestic version will be different from ours. So I dont think china should have much of a problem.*



And you are saying this on basis of ............... ?

Did you see these... AESA for J-10B.




FC-20 is what PAF will get, till this time I don't know how much different it will be from J-10B but one thing sure this will be built on requirement of PAF.


----------



## Arsalan

well J10 getting westren taste seem most unlikely, yes the JF17 with PAF may use some westren components but the FC20 will surely be a complete chines machine. asnd sir growler as far as the point of china looking for westren systems or the west having a good look at J10 can you provide us with some links to support this claim. this will be really nice of you and helpful for all of us!

regards!


----------



## SSGPA1

PakShaheen79 said:


> Highly doubt that one. I dont think China will allow West to see where it is in aviation by letting some Western engineers to upgrade its own primary fighter.



Western aviation companies are already operating in China and assist them alot. China is supposed to come out with commercial jet in 2016 and all major aviation companies are trying to get some share of the pie.

I know this is as a matter of fact so please don't argue


----------



## PakShaheen79

SSGPA1 said:


> Western aviation companies are already operating in China and assist them alot. China is supposed to come out with commercial jet in 2016 and all major aviation companies are trying to get some share of the pie.
> 
> I know this is as a matter of fact so please don't argue



Sorry for that but i will argue as you don't have anything to back your claims.

Commercial jet and Military jet are two different things. Eventually Honeywell FBW, Boeing Design work, GE's propuolsion technologies will come handy for military projects through commercial projects like AJR-21 but if you are telling me that these comanies are helping China directly to build a fighter that will compete with US fighters in internaitonal market...then my advice will be to please stay quiet or provide some concerete evidence about what you are saying here.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

PakShaheen79 said:


> And you are saying this on basis of ............... ?
> 
> Did you see these... AESA for J-10B.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FC-20 is what PAF will get, till this time I don't know how much different it will be from J-10B but one thing sure this will be built on requirement of PAF.



a panel of arrays does not prove anything.


----------



## PakShaheen79

Growler said:


> a panel of arrays does not prove anything.


 
I posted panel of arrays in fav. of my argument but problem here is you even can't provide anything like this in fav. of your claim of FC-20 being upgraded with Western radars and avionics. Do u have any news item or any interview in that regard? I don't think so...

So, to me, personal opinion also don't prove anything.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

PakShaheen79 said:


> I posted panel of arrays in fav. of my argument but problem here is you even can't provide anything like this in fav. of your claim of FC-20 being upgraded with Western radars and avionics. Do u have any news item or any interview in that regard? I don't think so...
> 
> So, to me, personal opinion also don't prove anything.



I do not wanna waist my time researching over and over again. Kindly go through J-10/FC-20 thread in main aviation section.


----------



## PakShaheen79

Growler said:


> I do not wanna waist my time researching over and over again. Kindly go through J-10/FC-20 thread in main aviation section.



Have done it nothing is there.


----------



## SSGPA1

PakShaheen79 said:


> ...technologies will come handy for military projects through commercial projects like AJR-21 ...



Majority of this is dual technology so there is one direct help. On all of the US DOD projects, Chinese engineers are working and right now there is a brain drain in the direction of China.

Last but not least, US and Western defence companies will gain the most if China becomes a competition because this way these companies will have more orders from the US govt. to subsidize the impact and also increased funding for R&D.

There are many other benefits for the US comanies so use your head and you will understand.


----------



## PakShaheen79

SSGPA1 said:


> Majority of this is dual technology so there is one direct help. On all of the US DOD projects, Chinese engineers are working and right now there is a brain drain in the direction of China.
> 
> Last but not least, US and Western defence companies will gain the most if China becomes a competition because this way these companies will have more orders from the US govt. to subsidize the impact and also increased funding for R&D.
> 
> There are many other benefits for the US comanies so use your head and you will understand.



No direct help. Agreement documents language is very strict when it comes to US companies help someone out side US.

Brain drain will bring technical know how which will be used in Chinese own R&D to produce a local product... this is not equal to having Western systems onboard with ur local fighter jet or other projects.

Yeah Yeah.... Do u remember what China did with Su-27... lol It ripped apart Russian share in Flanker export market and Russian are yelling like hell over this... Dear if Western companies bring something senstive in China it will not remain in that premises i can grantee you. Chinese will have a license to do what they do best;'Reverse Engineering'. Europe and US both knows this then there is a political aspect of this matter as well how far US will allow Boeing or Honeywell to cooperate with China before authorities sense that now is time to cut the wing of technology.

Best thing happening to China is increase in skilled work force and growing economy... That is all you need for a sustained R&D. Why would China like to remain behind US and West when it can afford to throw resources to bridge that technical gap ASAP?

I am using my head thanks for advice but when did the same last time?


----------



## SSGPA1

PakShaheen79 said:


> No direct help. Agreement documents language is very strict when it comes to US companies help someone out side US.



I know, I have worked on some of these contracts. Issue is there are options to work around it. Greed is also a big factor.



PakShaheen79 said:


> Dear if Western companies bring something senstive in China it will not remain in that premises i can grantee you. Chinese will have a license to do what they do best;'Reverse Engineering'. Europe and US both knows this then there is a political aspect of this matter as well how far US will allow Boeing or Honeywell to cooperate with China before authorities sense that now is time to cut the wing of technology..



Executives in a board room don't care because they know the market for China will remain limited and they also see competition as a way to get more busniess from the govt. of the US. Keep in mind that these companies don't earn most revenue from forign countries but most revnue comes from the US DOD and NATO.

If there is no advnacement in Chinese technology then USAF will stop at JSF which means that these companies are only providing spares for JSF. This also means massive lay offs in the US economy and also in the EU economy.

The only way to keep things moving is to create a threat which has competitive technology[/QUOTE]


----------



## wangrong

KJ200

2&#65288;Pilot &#65289;+4&#65288;Operator &#65289;=6

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## wangrong

Y-XX's Cockpit

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## PakShaheen79

SSGPA1 said:


> I know, I have worked on some of these contracts. Issue is there are options to work around it. Greed is also a big factor.
> 
> Executives in a board room don't care because *they know the market for China will remain limited *and they also see competition as a way to get more busniess from the govt. of the US. Keep in mind that these companies don't earn most revenue from forign countries but most revnue comes from the US DOD and NATO.
> 
> If there is no advnacement in Chinese technology then USAF will stop at JSF which means that these companies are only providing spares for JSF. This also means massive lay offs in the US economy and also in the EU economy.
> 
> The only way to keep things moving is to create a threat which has competitive technology



But why and how?

If China offer more capable fighters at cheaper price I don't think market will remain same as what it is today. Other than that due to its foreign policy unlike US/West, China will eager to grab more and more market share by offering military hardware without any strings attached to many countries which can't afford any such thing due to political reasons.

I know this will not happen in next 5 years or so but it is bound to happen thats for sure.


----------



## BATMAN

wangrong said:


> KJ200
> 
> 2&#65288;Pilot &#65289;+4&#65288;Operator &#65289;=6



4 operators sounds very small for a big aircraft!
Are there only 4 work stations?
In the crash news from 2006 it said crew of 40!!!


----------



## PakShaheen79

BATMAN said:


> 4 operators sounds very small for a big aircraft!
> Are there only 4 work stations?
> *In the crash news from 2006 it said crew of 40!!!*



What... ?

Bro there must be aviation engineers and other staff onboard for testing and evaluation. As far as being less operator it can be a possibility as with help of modern tech one operator can display data from multiple sensors on his console.


----------



## SSGPA1

PakShaheen79 said:


> But why and how?
> 
> If China offer more capable fighters at cheaper price I don't think market will remain same as what it is today. Other than that due to its foreign policy unlike US/West, China will eager to grab more and more market share by offering military hardware without any strings attached to many countries which can't afford any such thing due to political reasons.
> 
> I know this will not happen in next 5 years or so but it is bound to happen thats for sure.



China will not have a relationship on the Pakistani model and Chinese influence in other govt. will be limited.

For example, Prince Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud is THE closest US friend from the Royal family and he is now back in the Kingdom and was appointed as the Secretary-General of the National Security Council for KSA. There are many people like him protecting the US interests in many countries.

Also keep in mind that China may be ready in 5 to 7 years with competitive technology but countries around the world may not be ready to switch over from Western technology. 

One big benefit US has is that its technology is war proven however, Chinese technology has yet to see action.

Last but not least, US companies and EU companies make most money by selling to the US and NATO etc which will not switch.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## a1b2c145

PakShaheen79 said:


> What... ?
> 
> Bro there must be aviation engineers and other staff onboard for testing and evaluation. As far as being less operator it can be a possibility as with help of modern tech one operator can display data from multiple sensors on his console.



crash in 2006,yes! 
40 on board,yes!
They were aviation engineers and other staff onboard for testing and evaluation in 2006 before its real massive production. 
2&#65288;Pilot &#65289;+4&#65288;Operator &#65289;=6 ?
No, there are 3+3=6 pilots ( another 3 pilots are used to instead~~~)

Operator? no one knows!!!


----------



## PakShaheen79

SSGPA1 said:


> China will not have a relationship on the Pakistani model and Chinese influence in other govt. will be limited.
> 
> 
> 
> Any particular reason for that. China is investing heavily in Africa too. Yes Pakistan is next door but I don't think it will remain only beneficiary when it comes to defense ties. Thing is China is just taking start and it will take a while before it start finding some markets for its products.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For example, Prince Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud is THE closest US friend from the Royal family and he is now back in the Kingdom and was appointed as the Secretary-General of the National Security Council for KSA. There are many people like him protecting the US interests in many countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah but every country is not KSA w.r.t. economy. It all comes to economy. Africa, Eastern Europe, Central Asia, Latin America ... lots of potential.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also keep in mind that China may be ready in 5 to 7 years with competitive technology but countries around the world may not be ready to switch over from Western technology.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Countries like ME, KSA, India, Brazil, ...may be you are right. But what about whole world?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One big benefit US has is that its technology is war proven however, Chinese technology has yet to see action.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Will have to agree there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last but not least, US companies and EU companies make most money by selling to the US and NATO etc which will not switch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## SBD-3

here s something interesting 
Google Translate


----------



## Lethalforce

how many eeriye's does pakistan have??


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## SBD-3

none at the moment but going forward 5


----------



## HAIDER

> He expressed the desire for cooperation in advanced versions of AWACS for enhancing Pakistans airborne defence capability. Chen Qiufa, Administrator of Chinas State Administration for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defence who led a delegation of Chinas defence-related companies at the meeting, said that China fully supported Pakistans efforts in the war against terror.


 
DAWN.COM | World | China vows support for efforts to boost security


----------



## raveolution

hasnain0099 said:


> none at the moment but going forward 5



4 Erieye's... one is just a basic refurbished transport version. The first is to be delivered this month hopefully.

Erieye radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Arsalan

i dont understand what are all these delays about???
i mean how many times this have happened to us that we start saying that Pakistan is getting this system but then it turns out to take years before we do get them. for example we have been hearing about SPADA ans FT2000 SAM systems since some where in 2004 and now it is almost 2010. similarly the Erieyes have been under discussion and still we have no idea when will they be deleivered. simillarly there is no news about mid-air refueler planes that too we have been listening about since years now!

regards!


----------



## raveolution

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i dont understand what are all these delays about???
> i mean how many times this have happened to us that we start saying that Pakistan is getting this system but then it turns out to take years before we do get them. for example we have been hearing about SPADA ans FT2000 SAM systems since some where in 2004 and now it is almost 2010. similarly the Erieyes have been under discussion and still we have no idea when will they be deleivered. simillarly there is no news about mid-air refueler planes that too we have been listening about since years now!
> 
> regards!



The first Erieye was to be delivered by June 2009 so the delay is not that much. I guess this is a crucial system for the PAF and a big deal to it, so a little delay is fine. However if it gets delayed beyond this year, there is cause for concern as the IAF has already deployed its first Phalcon AWACS.

As for other systems concerned, I guess when the PAF expresses interest or some article regarding the PAF Chief's speech comes out, people think that the PAF has already ordered them or is 100% going for them. However there are various evaluations, negotiations, approvals, etc which are required. Also there is a funding problem, so the PAF always prioritizes acquisitions as per their operational doctrine.


----------



## wangrong

one Question &#65306;



we know PAF&#8216;s System Including KJ200+SAAB2000+J10+JF17+*F16*

the US will not agree .......


----------



## HAIDER

Above question been repeated so many times. Pakistan is using two different platform , one is chinese other is Nato standards. Chinese one is connected with Chinese satellite system, which is KJ200, JF17,FC20 and Mirage ROSE. And second one is F16s Swed Saab, PC3s, which are connected with NATO datalink. Well its only few countries in the world who are running two complete air borne early warning system side by side.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## raveolution

HAIDER said:


> Above question been repeated so many times. Pakistan is using two different platform , one is chinese other is Nato standards. Chinese one is connected with Chinese satellite system, which is KJ200, JF17,FC20 and Mirage ROSE. And second one is F16s Swed Saab, PC3s, which are connected with NATO datalink. Well its only few countries in the world who are running two complete air borne early warning system side by side.



Hi Haider.... Running two systems side by side which are not compatible with the entire fleet are more of a disadvantage than an advantage. It means that if there is a strike force comprising a mix of aircraft (Strike, CAP, Support, etc), two AWACS would have to be up instead of one, sacrificing efficiency as well. Also if a certain type of AWACS were lost or grounded, the other would not be able to step in due to non-compatibilty.

Value your feedback... Cheers


----------



## raveolution

wangrong said:


> one Question &#65306;
> 
> 
> 
> we know PAFs System Including KJ200+SAAB2000+J10+JF17+*F16*
> 
> the US will not agree .......



Hi Wangrong... what do you mean by the US will not agree?


----------



## wangrong

raveolution said:


> Hi Wangrong... what do you mean by the US will not agree?



Conformity F16/SAAB2000 enters the Chinese system


----------



## HAIDER

raveolution said:


> Hi Haider.... Running two systems side by side which are not compatible with the entire fleet are more of a disadvantage than an advantage. It means that if there is a strike force comprising a mix of aircraft (Strike, CAP, Support, etc), two AWACS would have to be up instead of one, sacrificing efficiency as well. Also if a certain type of AWACS were lost or grounded, the other would not be able to step in due to non-compatibilty.
> 
> Value your feedback... Cheers



No, they are for two different duties, F16 and PC3 orion basically perform NATO duties in Indian ocean. Or coordinated strikes on terrorist hide out between Pak-Afghan region. Basic duties of Chinese AWAC will be Pak-Indian border area. But thats for sure PC3s and F16 are datalink with NATO forces and air borne system.


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## PakShaheen79

Guys, We are in middle of October 2009, Any news about Erieye coming to Pakistan?? I am getting desperate.


----------



## notorious_eagle

raveolution said:


> Hi Haider.... Running two systems side by side which are not compatible with the entire fleet are more of a disadvantage than an advantage. It means that if there is a strike force comprising a mix of aircraft (Strike, CAP, Support, etc), two AWACS would have to be up instead of one, sacrificing efficiency as well. Also if a certain type of AWACS were lost or grounded, the other would not be able to step in due to non-compatibilty.
> 
> Value your feedback... Cheers



All Pakistani Fighters Jets and both AWACS(KJ200 and Erieye) will be data linked.


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## raveolution

notorious_eagle said:


> All Pakistani Fighters Jets and both AWACS(KJ200 and Erieye) will be data linked.



Is that confirmed? Could you post any link for the same for my further reading? Thanks in advance. Haider has indicated otherwise.


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## raveolution

HAIDER said:


> No, they are for two different duties, F16 and PC3 orion basically perform NATO duties in Indian ocean. Or coordinated strikes on terrorist hide out between Pak-Afghan region. Basic duties of Chinese AWAC will be Pak-Indian border area. But thats for sure PC3s and F16 are datalink with NATO forces and air borne system.



Haider, you are right about the F16's and P3C's being linked with the Erieye's. The F16's do come with conditions on their use, but however it is indeed short sighted to assume that the PAF would not use the same in the event of any conflict other than the War on Terror, as indicated by General Musharraf a few weeks back.


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## marcos98

Pakistan Air Force AWACS ERIEYE taking off, not sure if this was posted earlier......
but i think this ones is PAFs

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## HAIDER

raveolution said:


> Haider, you are right about the F16's and P3C's being linked with the Erieye's. The F16's do come with conditions on their use, but however it is indeed short sighted to assume that the PAF would not use the same in the event of any conflict other than the War on Terror, as indicated by General Musharraf a few weeks back.


American knows well ....they know if Russian arming India, then US won't sit on back seat and enjoy the increasing Indian air power.


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## PakShaheen79

marcos98 said:


> Pakistan Air Force AWACS ERIEYE taking off, not sure if this was posted earlier......
> but i think this ones is PAFs
> Oj_XrywGDZQ[/media] - Pakistan Air Force AWACS ERIEYE taking off



I think this air field must has receive ISO 14000 Environmental award. Very beautiful location for an air filed.


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## BATMAN

HAIDER said:


> American knows well ....they know if Russian arming India, then US won't sit on back seat and enjoy the increasing Indian air power.



It is bit off topic but it is believed that many indian security officials, specially RAW operatives are double agents of US.
I doubt that in such senario US have any problems with indians.
US need india for cold war with China and probably later with Russians too.
Why do you think US is so keen to arm indians with nukes?


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## PakShaheen79

^It is simple. To make India look big on world map strategically and business wise and later use this aid in nuclear tech and Indian soil and men in fight of interests in region against China and Russia, as you said yourself.


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## DANGER-ZONE

HAIDER said:


> American knows well ....they know if Russian arming India, then US won't sit on back seat and enjoy the increasing Indian air power.




man ur a funny guy.ive heard the same thing discussing b/w the students of class 6.
i think u must go bak to sleep again.

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## a1b2c145

notorious_eagle said:


> All Pakistani Fighters Jets and both AWACS(KJ200 and Erieye) will be data linked.



good news kj-200 is far better than Erieye


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## ice_man

who said KJ is better than EREIYE what mushrooms you having A1b2c145


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## IceCold

a1b2c145 said:


> good news kj-200 is far better than Erieye



How about you back up your claim instead of just spewing BS.


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## sancho

HAIDER said:


> American knows well ....they know if Russian arming India, then US won't sit on back seat and enjoy the increasing Indian air power.


Actually you are trying to sit on front seat by selling us nearly everything to increase our air power (F16IN/F18SH, F35 in future, E-2D, P8I, C130J-30 for special ops, C17, V22 Osprey, Ah 64 Apache, Ch 47 Chinook, Ch53, Sea Hawks and the list goes on and on). 
Americans knows well where their benefits are! It was good to support Pakistan in the past against India, now it's good to support India against China.

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## PAFAce

sancho said:


> Americans knows well where their benefits are! It was good to support Pakistan in the past against India, now it's good to support India against China.


Correction. It was smart of the Americans to support Pakistan against the _Soviet Union_ in the past. India has never been a threat to the US, of any kind whatsoever. Therefore, there was never any support for Pakistan against India, directly. And yes, it is now smart to support India against China _and Pakistan_, because unlike India, Pakistan _does_ pose a threat to American interests. The games are being played, and Pakistan and India are but pawns. Or so they think. But let's not go off-topic.

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## PakShaheen79

sancho said:


> Actually you are trying to sit on front seat by selling us nearly everything to increase our air power (F16IN/F18SH, F35 in future, E-2D, P8I, C130J-30 for special ops, C17, V22 Osprey, Ah 64 Apache, Ch 47 Chinook, Ch53, Sea Hawks and the list goes on and on).
> *Americans knows well where their benefits are! It was good to support Pakistan in the past against India, now it's good to support India against China*.



OK let me tell you then that actually you are inviting trouble. US has much more interests in China then it has with India. India will be used as a big market by US mainly in Nuclear and arms deals.


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## ice_man

sancho said:


> Actually you are trying to sit on front seat by selling us nearly everything to increase our air power (F16IN/F18SH, F35 in future, E-2D, P8I, C130J-30 for special ops, C17, V22 Osprey, Ah 64 Apache, Ch 47 Chinook, Ch53, Sea Hawks and the list goes on and on).
> Americans knows well where their benefits are! It was good to support Pakistan in the past against India, now it's good to support India against China.



money makes the world go round my friend....india has it...US needs it to keep its military industry going....or it is scared of how the french are stuck with no orders & assembly lines closing down & people being made jobless!! 

US NEEDS india to keep china at bay.....another cold war has started and india has become the proxy state! ofcourse indians would deny such claims...but trust me we pakistanis speak from experience....the honey moon with the US is amazing but when reality kicks in you realize it was all just a SHOW! ofcourse you willcome up with a line we are smart we know what we doing lol US wants you to think exactly like that!

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## wangrong

*Correspondence Director *



*Electronic reconnaissance *



*Battlefield surveillance *


*Psychological warfare *


*Electronic countermeasure *

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## MZUBAIR

self delted


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## mughaljee

Nice Pics, thanks for those.


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## marcos98

Chinese Air Force KJ-2000 AWACS just played a main role in the air parade in PRC&#8217;s 60th Anniversary day. China government also announces that it become the 4th country which can design and manufacture Airborne Warning and Control System behind U.S., Russia and Israel.

But before the October.1 2009, the development history of Chinese KJ-2000 AWACS is still uncover from the classified files. Fortunately, one Chinese state-run magazine newly published in this month makes an interview with one Chinese leading electronic expert to tell a story of KJ-2000.

Mr. Wang Xiaomo, the interviewee who has been engaging in the research and design of radar and made great contributions to the development of the Chinese military electronic industry. Here is the brief content of the interview.

Reporter: China began the KJ-1 (Air Warning-1) Project at the end of 1960s, why it was canceled. And when did China re-initiate the AWACS project later?

Wang: The KJ-1 Project was terminated because China could not solve the problem of Ground Clutter when airborne radar power-on. The failure of KJ-1 project tells that China must make technological breakthrough in &#8220;Ultra-Pure Spectrum Transmitter&#8221;, &#8220;High Performance Signal Processor&#8221; and &#8220;ultra-low sidelobe antenna&#8221; before develop AWACS. In 1970s, China has made great achievements in radar technologies and the boost of computer also brings a reality of producing high-performance digital processor.

Besides, several conflicts occurred since 1980s have display the supreme position of early warning aircraft. Under the background of international situation, China decided to develop or acquire AWACS since early 1990s.

Reporter: It must be an unusual and hard road.

Wang: Yes. Although preparations has been made for years, whether China has the ability to develop early warning aircraft is still argued in academic circle. In 1992, several Chinese Scientists and engineers provide a report to government for explaining China&#8217;s ability and determination in early warning aircraft development. The government at that time also organized one oversea visiting delegation (I am one member of it) to three countries: U.K., Russia and Israel.

The delegation later brought one sum-up: purchase from other countries for realizing operational ability as soon as possible. The delegation at that time believed that Israel early warning aircraft had excellent performance but was immature for advanced ARRAY radar technology. Meanwhile the Russia&#8217;s can not satisfy our demands. The delegation wanted to purchase UK&#8217;s &#8220;Nimrod&#8221;, but this project was canceled later.

Finally China determined to develop airborne early warning system by domestic power and simultaneously import related technologies from Israel.

In 1992, China and Israel made a primitive agreement to co-develop an airborne Early Warning system for PLA Air Force. After 4 years, both sides signed a official contract, which defined a cooperative AWACS design basing on IL-76 platform. Israel provided a modified Phalcon system mounting antennas either on the aircraft fuselage and nose dome. But we thought that this configure could only provide 360&#176;coverage. Then Chinese side provided another plan to install an expanded over-fuselage stationary radar dome. This is the largest radar dome in the world. For this, China built the largest Autoclave in Asia for producing composite material radar dome.

Reporter: How about the later cooperation between China and Israel?

Wang: In 1999, the improvement of IL-76 has been finished in Russia and the plane was transferred to Israel for electronic installation. Under the pressure from United States, however, the contract was canceled. Israel finally paid us the penalty for breach of contract. The quit of Israel postpone the operational timeline of AEW&C aircrafts but speeded up the domestic development.

Reporter: What do we get from the cooperation with Israel?

Wang: 1. From Israel, China learned the T/R module and composite material radar dome production process specifications to control the quality.

2. Israel helped China to design radar structure basing on data bus network.

Reporter: When Israel canceled the project, did China have other choice?

Wang: Russia advised to jointly develop A-50 and even wanted to &#8220;lend&#8221; 4 A-50s to PLA Air Force before the joint development. Actually, Russian never believes China can produce indigenous AWE&C system.

When the &#8220;4.1&#8243; mid-air collision between a United States Navy EP-3E and a PLA Navy J-8II interceptor fighter jet, China felt it had been in a hard international security situation. In normal condition, China would own AWE&C system in 10 years. And the military department could not wait for such a long time. So &#8220;AWE&C Made in China&#8221; did not acquire much supports.

But the top leader in Chinese government supports us. In 2002, the land testing sample aircraft was finished. In 2003, the prototype successfully finished its trial flight. In the last month of 2007, KJ-2000 entered service in PLA Air Force.

We spent only 5 years to manufacture China&#8217;s own AEW&C system.

Report: Did we meet other difficulties during the R & D?

Wang: 1: Electromagnetic compatibility design; 2: Software compatibility; 3: Battlefield Data Fusion via Datalink; 4: Scanning performance in mountain area; 5: We have no choices but IL-76 platform at that time. Russia don&#8217;t want sell China IL-76 after the birth of KJ-2000. But China develops some special AEW&C system, such as KJ-200, based on Y-8 aircraft.

Reporter: Please make an outlook of Chinese future AEW&C system

Wang: China has owned a complete and full family of AEW&C system. In future, AEW&C system made by Chinese will be very competitive in lower price. KJ-2000 costs billions of RMB and some new systems will only spend thousands or even millions of RMB.

Being a large country, China in future will need more AEW&C systems. We can develop lots of variants or upgraded version from present systems.

Besides, our next object is Conformal Array Airborne Phased Radar, however, which exceeds today data processing technologies. We believe that China&#8217;s Radar technology is on the same level with foreign countries. Who make breakthrough in new concept radar or other detection methods, who will leading the world.

Background: a brief introduction of WANG XIAOMO

Mr. Wang Xiaomo, a radar expert, was born in 1938. He graduated from Beijing Industry Institute (now named Beijing Institute of Technology, BIT) in 1961. He is now the executive vice president of China Academy of Electronics and Information Technology, as well as a tutor of Ph.D. students at BIT and a member of China Engineering Academy.

In the past thirty years, Mr. Wang Xiaomo has been engaging in the research and design of radar. He has made great contributions to the development of the Chinese military electronic industry. He designed many new types of radar by using the state of the art technologies. He has high attainments in the aspect of Three-dimension Radar and Low-attitude Radar, he is the founder of these types of radar in China. The JY-8 and JY-9 radar, designed and developed under his leadership, filled the gaps in the fields of radar technique in China. These radars not only broke through the traditional mode of design, put forward the development and manufacturing of radar into a new era, but also shortened the distance to the advanced world technology.

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## ice_man

can the Chinese KJ-2000 detect enemy aircraft to detect aircraft in the 30&#176; sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, & can it track in this sector.

and if so when does PAF plan to sing the deal with the chinese any updates guys.....?


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## raveolution

ice_man said:


> can the Chinese KJ-2000 detect enemy aircraft to detect aircraft in the 30&#176; sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, & can it track in this sector.
> 
> and if so when does PAF plan to sing the deal with the chinese any updates guys.....?



I believe you mean the KJ-200, which the PAF will be getting, and not the KJ-2000. Both are mounted on different platforms,though I'm not sure about the difference in their radars. Also I think that the deal has already been signed, but the system is still in its final stages of development.

Very little is known about these systems as they have been developed in utmost secrecy after China's earlier deals for the Phalcon's fell through. Would appreciate it if someone could put up its specs. Thanks in advance.


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## wangrong

ice_man said:


> can the Chinese KJ-2000 detect enemy aircraft to detect aircraft in the 30° sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, & can it track in this sector.
> 
> and if so when does PAF plan to sing the deal with the chinese any updates guys.....?


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## mughaljee

So, we have Chinese KJ-200 not KJ-2000 am i right, 
why not we are buying Chinese KJ-2000 ?


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## unicorn148

no till now only 4 kj2000 are built and all are with china pakistan has bought Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C. from sweden which are too infrerior to the phalcon awacs 
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has ordered five Saab 2000 aircraft, four of which will be fitted with the Erieye radar and associated systems, including 5 onboard operator consoles. The first is expected to be received by the PAF in October 2009


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## unicorn148

the kj200 are awacs of the chinese air force which are even inferior to the swedons erieye awacs that is why pakisthan is opting to buy the erieye than kj200. since kj2000 is not presently avilable for pakisthan and us has ruleout the sale of E-3 Sentry to pakisthan so pakisthan has to wait for kj2000 which are also inferior to the phalcons used by the indian air force .

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## wangrong

mughaljee said:


> So, we have Chinese KJ-200 not KJ-2000 am i right,
> why not we are buying Chinese KJ-2000 ?



lack of YL76


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## Sapper

wangrong said:


> lack of YL76



Due to Chinese conversion of IL76 into KJ2000 AWACS instead of working with Russia to develop a conbined AWACS platform, Russia has banned any future exports of IL76 to China.

Chinese may need to develop their own plane comparable to IL76, or buy western planes and convert them to AWACS.

Another option may be to acquire old IL76s from ex-Soviet nations and use those.

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## wangrong

2012
Y-XX's Cockpit

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## PakShaheen79

unicorn148 said:


> the kj200 are awacs of the chinese air force which are even inferior to the swedons erieye awacs that is why pakisthan is opting to buy the erieye than kj200. since kj2000 is not presently avilable for pakisthan and us has ruleout the sale of E-3 Sentry to pakisthan so pakisthan has to wait for kj2000 which are also inferior to the phalcons used by the indian air force .



and your source of all these assumptions? What do you know about EW/ECM/ECCM capabilities of Erieye, KJ-200 and KJ-2000 ?? Range is not only measure in electronic warfare. 

R-77 has more range than AIM-120C but don't tell me it is superior to AIM.


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## All-Green

unicorn148 said:


> no till now only 4 kj2000 are built and all are with china pakistan has bought *Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C. from sweden which are too infrerior to the phalcon awacs*
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has ordered five Saab 2000 aircraft, four of which will be fitted with the Erieye radar and associated systems, including 5 onboard operator consoles. The first is expected to be received by the PAF in October 2009



Too inferior would imply that the Swedish system is extremely limited in functionality and capability versus the Phalcon...

What do you base this claim on?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

LOL the biggest use of AWAC is to warn of intruding airforce or missile into territory and it gives you a window of 5-20 min to prepare before enemy airplanes reach your territories.

a) Pakistani Awacs have capabilities to track 360 degree and 450 km 
range , what else can you ask for ? 

b) We have duel systems, chinese and sweedish, in case the 
swedish backstab us and sell the jamming codes to India 
at lease we have our chinese back up systems. I don't think 
sweeden would do such a thing they are stright shooting ppl

c) Chinese on other hand will continuelly upgrade their systems
and onces they upgrade and learn more , we will just borrow from 
our brothers, since we use same technology. 



Now , on other hand , imagine if all IAF fighters are linked to the Phalcon, and then that phalcon downloads a virus on all IAF plane .. 

That would kinda suck ..

I mean a slight 5&#37; or 8% difference does not gives a hell alot of tactical advantage - 
Its just a radar

But on other hand , all AWACS are easy targets for awac killer missiles


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## gogbot

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> LOL the biggest use of AWAC is to warn of intruding airforce or missile into territory and it gives you a window of 5-20 min to prepare before enemy airplanes reach your territories.
> 
> a) Pakistani Awacs have capabilities to track 360 degree and 450 km
> range , what else can you ask for ?
> 
> b) We have duel systems, chinese and sweedish, in case the
> swedish backstab us and sell the jamming codes to India
> at lease we have our chinese back up systems. I don't think
> sweeden would do such a thing they are stright shooting ppl
> 
> c) Chinese on other hand will continuelly upgrade their systems
> and onces they upgrade and learn more , we will just borrow from
> our brothers, since we use same technology.
> 
> 
> 
> Now , on other hand , imagine if all IAF fighters are linked to the Phalcon, and then that phalcon downloads a virus on all IAF plane ..
> 
> That would kinda suck ..
> 
> I mean a slight 5% or 8% difference does not gives a hell alot of tactical advantage -
> Its just a radar
> 
> But on other hand , all AWACS are easy targets for awac killer missiles



5-20 min preparedness, haha

Phalcon virus, haha
Chinese brothers. haha

First of off , any surprise first strike by either country using largescale air-assets can be Mis-construed as a Nuclear attack, so neither nation will have the spine to take that chance.

Secondly, well while there well might be a chance of the the Secure Data links not being so secure anymore.
There are entire divisions of the armed forces whose sole duty is to ensure the security of the military networks. 

Apart from that what else can any nation do to secure its data links
so, stop dreaming of Magical scenarios where Chinese hackers upload virus into Indian defense and Pakistani JF-17 fly over New dehli.

Now this is the most puzzling aspect of Pakistan, The Shear amount of Faith you have put into China. As is they have given life and limb to save your nation. Every Pakistani scenarios i read in this forum, involves china coming to Pakistanis rescue when times get though.

You guys Like China more than the EU likes it self.

IS there in your minds a single negative aspect of Pakistan China relations.
Or are you so deluded to believe that you cant even picture a scenario where China's priorities may not necessarily be the same as Pakistan's .

In fact cant just for posterity's sake mention the low point of the Pakistan-CHina relations?
And how exactly it came to be that you became brothers and sisters?


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## unicorn148

and u too cant say that aim is superior to r77 each has a specific advantage the phalcon are the best in the world even powerful than the e 3 used by the us airforce

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## unicorn148

According to the Federation of American Scientists in a 1999 article, the Phalcon was the most advanced AEW&C system in the world
Phalcon uses the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), an active phased array radar.
The Erieye AEW&C mission system radar is an active, phased-array, pulse-Doppler senso
no need to say that a aesa radar is far more better than aphased radar

AESA radars have very short to instantaneous scanning rates, which makes them difficult to detect

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## Sapper

unicorn148 said:


> According to the Federation of American Scientists in a 1999 article, the Phalcon was the most advanced AEW&C system in the world
> Phalcon uses the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), an active phased array radar.
> The Erieye AEW&C mission system radar is an active, phased-array, pulse-Doppler senso
> no need to say that a aesa radar is far more better than aphased radar
> 
> AESA radars have very short to instantaneous scanning rates, which makes them difficult to detect



OMG ... you are still in delusion that Erieye has PESA radar.

Dear ... wake up ... Erieye has AESA.

If you still think otherwise ... well, i cant help you.


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## ice_man

gogbot said:


> 5-20 min preparedness, haha
> 
> Phalcon virus, haha
> Chinese brothers. haha
> 
> First of off , any surprise first strike by either country using largescale air-assets can be Mis-construed as a Nuclear attack, so neither nation will have the spine to take that chance.
> 
> Secondly, well while there well might be a chance of the the Secure Data links not being so secure anymore.
> There are entire divisions of the armed forces whose sole duty is to ensure the security of the military networks.
> 
> Apart from that what else can any nation do to secure its data links
> so, stop dreaming of Magical scenarios where Chinese hackers upload virus into Indian defense and Pakistani JF-17 fly over New dehli.
> 
> Now this is the most puzzling aspect of Pakistan, The Shear amount of Faith you have put into China. As is they have given life and limb to save your nation. Every Pakistani scenarios i read in this forum, involves china coming to Pakistanis rescue when times get though.
> 
> You guys Like China more than the EU likes it self.
> 
> IS there in your minds a single negative aspect of Pakistan China relations.
> Or are you so deluded to believe that you cant even picture a scenario where China's priorities may not necessarily be the same as Pakistan's .
> 
> In fact cant just for posterity's sake mention the low point of the Pakistan-CHina relations?
> And how exactly it came to be that you became brothers and sisters?




OK so i dunno where you going with this but yes just like the INDIANS are in there belief that they are becoming a super power & the world loves them we too think that china is our friend....now if you agree that india is not a super power i will also agree china is not our friend....

its simple US needs INDIA now to control CHINA....and China helps pakistan since decades without a reason now think for yourself whose loyalties are more true......

so yes China is going to grow in terms of technology and we want to be onboard when it flexes its muscle!!!! 

and through out history the indians always trusted the RUSSIANS so much so that 99% of your military hardware is currently russian! does that not equal the same amount of trust we have in our chinese brothers!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

PS Lets not forget that report you mentioned came out in *1999* ...

Ehem ... 1999 , you know just to put it in prespective, in 1999 , windows 95 was still hot .... And titanic Celine Dion was still the best diva as well with Leonardo Di Caprio being the Titanic lead hero with Kate Winslet .... and the whole titanic scene ..

TITANIC reminds me of Phalcon sometimes

So how can the most technologically advance AWAC be made in 1999 ... when we have 10000 times better technology and software codes to do all the statistical real time calculations and , data processing capabilities.

 I mean most of India was still using , 100 MHz Pc in 1999. I was using 120 Mhz and I was thinking I had the best dam unit in world how time changes prespective

Mean while you are saying that the Eerie AWAC which obviously is newer , and was made later , is not as capable. 

Think about it ... 

Phalcon , gives you early warning of aircract , 5 min and 40 second before it reaches your protected zone , Eerie Awac gives you that warning at 4 min and 59 secon.

So just becasue you had a 30 second improvement some how you will gain lot of technical advantage.

Secondly , now we hear about this whole HOW THE phlacon , links all the planes in IAF together - wow , like I said if I was countering Phalcon I will be making sure I send out a virus , and all the IAF crafts start to show PONG on their radar screen

I mean lets not forget you are dealing with Chinese - who were probbly given a taste of technology by Israelis ... and they might have a prototype or some data on Phalcon in their Espionage unit. Don't forget that Israel always like to operate under the table - that includes giving and recieveing data and technology

And who can doubt the Chinese Hackers - best coders in world chinese ppl , they can code anything - 

So - while its sounds all fancy that India has the PHALCON .. but 
another point to be made is I don't think its hard to send out 20-40 AWAC killer missiles towrds a Phalcon - or take it out from Ground 
with a small commando force in real combat.

While the role of Phalcon is interesting , but the chinese AWACS may be better in termof technology use, even if they are not , in 4-5 years the chinese will continue to evolve their AWACS .. while the phalcon will still be a 1999 out dated bird in air.

I m sure if I went on torant , and searched for Phalcon codes or hacking I can get that on IRC  NEVER underestimate a chinese hacker


Chinese ppl and country is honorable they can be dependable in need its simple as that you can't trust US or anyone else - China is *SPECIAL* .. 

They are so polite and business minded I don't even know if they have a Secret service brance that operates out side of their countries, on other hand we have US whose CIA is topping shah in Iran , killing Bhutto may be even liaqat ali khan, or killing other leaders so local warlords can do good, promoting Karzai or egyption tyrant etc 

They earned this respect by staying out of our politics and minding their own country but when we need them they are always there - and so we all LOVE china becasue they are true friends

A true friend gives with out any hope for anything thing in return , its like we are jai and 
china is veru (if you understand , Sholay analogy) and USA is always like the police that shows up late or is undependable ...only Veru and Jai can face the big bad super power wana be Gabber singh , and Thakur sahib is well - Kashmir

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## unicorn148

The State of Israel is now flying a state-of the-art Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) surveillance aircraft that in some ways is superior to the Boeing E-3's flown by the US Air Force. Israel has already sold the same system to India with the equipment installed on a Russian-built Ilyushin Il-76

Israel Now Flying New Phalcon AWACS

the phalcon which is sold to india is a new version of phalcon and not the same one which was offered to china the

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## gambit

unicorn148 said:


> According to the Federation of American Scientists in a 1999 article, the Phalcon was the most advanced AEW&C system in the world
> Phalcon uses the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), an active phased array radar.
> The Erieye AEW&C mission system radar is an active, phased-array, pulse-Doppler senso
> no need to say that a *aesa radar is far more better than aphased radar*
> 
> AESA radars have very short to instantaneous scanning rates, which makes them difficult to detect


Please stop...Passive ESA and Active ESA...*BOTH* are phased arrays. The 'passive' and 'active' part refers to the individual transmit-receive modules and how they are energized.

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## raveolution

All-Green said:


> Too inferior would imply that the Swedish system is extremely limited in functionality and capability versus the Phalcon...
> 
> What do you base this claim on?



I think he meant "it too is inferior". Lol


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## raveolution

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> a) Pakistani Awacs have capabilities to track 360 degree and 450 km
> range , what else can you ask for ?
> 
> They do not have tracking ability 30 degree each to the fore and aft of the radar.
> 
> Forward Instrumental range is 450 km while range against fighter size targets are 350 km. Read a few earlier posts in the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> b) We have duel systems, chinese and sweedish, in case the
> swedish backstab us and sell the jamming codes to India
> at lease we have our chinese back up systems. I don't think
> sweeden would do such a thing they are stright shooting ppl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, such things will not happen. I think the Erieye is a good choice for the PAF and Sweden will probably not do any such thing unless they have a reason to feel threatened.
> 
> 
> 
> AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> c) Chinese on other hand will continuelly upgrade their systems
> and onces they upgrade and learn more , we will just borrow from
> our brothers, since we use same technology.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And the Americans, Russians, French and Israeli's will not?
> 
> 
> 
> AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now , on other hand , imagine if all IAF fighters are linked to the Phalcon, and then that phalcon downloads a virus on all IAF plane ..
> That would kinda suck ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Imagine the Erieye gets struck by lightening while its flying? That would suck even more. Lol
> 
> 
> 
> AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I mean a slight 5% or 8% difference does not gives a hell alot of tactical advantage -
> Its just a radar
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But a 20-25% advantage does. And sometimes in combat, 0.1% makes all the difference between living and dying.
> 
> 
> 
> AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But on other hand , all AWACS are easy targets for awac killer missiles
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which you do not have or will in the near future. India is integrating the Novator K-100 onto the MKI. Trials are underway.
> 
> No offence meant. My post is in a lighter vein.
Click to expand...


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## unicorn148

mr AZADPAKISTAN2009
the phalcons IAF use are not the same as the 1999 . the israil company has developed a new version of the phalcon and to tell u erieye are not newer the were operated from 1997 . Phalcon can update operators every two to four seconds instead of 20 to 40 seconds as is the case on the E-3 used by us air force(please visit the site to know more)
Israel Now Flying New Phalcon AWACS

the erieye Max Detection Range 300 km (162 nm) and the older version of phalcons used to have 400km range which has been improved

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## raveolution

ice_man said:


> its simple US needs INDIA now to control CHINA....and China helps pakistan since decades without a reason now think for yourself whose loyalties are more true......
> 
> and through out history the indians always trusted the RUSSIANS so much so that 99% of your military hardware is currently russian! does that not equal the same amount of trust we have in our chinese brothers!



Have you ever thought that like the US is using India as a counter to China, China is using Pakistan as a counter to India? Nobody helps anybody through decades for no reason. However much we like it to be, this not a charitable word. Even the US supported European countries for a very specific reason since the 1950's, i.e.- Soviet Union.

As for the Russian hardware, traditionally we have bought a lot of equipment from them as we had amazing repayment terms such as payment in roubles, soft loans, barters, etc. And Russian hardware in terms of quantity is about 80-85% and in terms of value about 65-70%.


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## Sapper

unicorn148 said:


> the erieye Max Detection Range 300 km (162 nm)



Please tell me you are joking.
Where did you get that information from ?


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## unicorn148

PS-890 ERIEYE

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------

mr sapper there is a diff between detection range and instrumental range

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## Sapper

unicorn148 said:


> PS-890 ERIEYE
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------
> 
> mr sapper there is a diff between detection range and instrumental range



Roger, my bad, misunderstood your meaning of detection range.
Currently all the sources report that Erieye has detection range of 330~350km for fighter sized target, i.e 3m2~5m2.

I agree, my apologies.


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## ice_man

raveolution said:


> Have you ever thought that like the US is using India as a counter to China, China is using Pakistan as a counter to India? Nobody helps anybody through decades for no reason. However much we like it to be, this not a charitable word. Even the US supported European countries for a very specific reason since the 1950's, i.e.- Soviet Union.
> 
> As for the Russian hardware, traditionally we have bought a lot of equipment from them as we had amazing repayment terms such as payment in roubles, soft loans, barters, etc. And Russian hardware in terms of quantity is about 80-85% and in terms of value about 65-70%.



well actually when no one in the 50s was willing to stand by the CHINESE we did....we were the nation that lobbied hard and strong for the chinese on every platform! so yes not every relationship is like going to bed with the americans........


now coming back to the thread.....ok we have read an ARTICLE saying the PHALCON is the most advanced platform in the world even more advanced then the E-3....my question is what makes it such an alien technology.......after all all the platforms are relatively same detection range & all the 3 that is E-3,ERIEYE 7 PHALCON are Phased Array radars! 

so what does the phalcon have that the E-3 & the EREIYE lack....

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## unicorn148

Phalcon can update operators every two to four seconds instead of 20 to 40 seconds as is the case on the E-3 
phalcon range is more than 400 km and erieye range is 300-350(max)
they both may use aesa radar but phalcon uses an advance aesa radar than 

erieye do not have tracking ability 30 degree each to the fore and aft of the radar 

dont compare the old phalcon with the new ones used by india because they are further developed and even israil airforce has ordered the same one in 2006


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## ice_man

unicorn148 said:


> Phalcon can update operators every two to four seconds instead of 20 to 40 seconds as is the case on the E-3
> phalcon range is more than 400 km and erieye range is 300-350(max)
> they both may use aesa radar but phalcon uses an advance aesa radar than
> 
> erieye do not have tracking ability 30 degree each to the fore and aft of the radar
> 
> dont compare the old phalcon with the new ones used by india because they are further developed and even israil airforce has ordered the same one in 2006



besides the update time lag of 2 seconds and 20 seconds...as well as 30 degree fore & aft the range i think you are quoting is wrong! both have equal detection ranges my friend!

secondly as for FORE & AFT i ssue i hope you realzie one thing PAF will be flying its EREIYE close to the border not towards the border that would mean our broad side would be aimed towards the indian border.....anywayz yes the EREIYE might have some limitations compared to the PHALCON but that doesn't mean it is a useless platform! 

and the "most advanced AESA" what is that....and what makes the phalcon even "more advanced" than the E-3? don't throw words my friend back them up with sources!!!


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## unicorn148

the range of erieye is 300 km
PS-890 ERIEYE

the range of phalcon is 400 kms

about the new phalcon (which the india is using)

Israel Now Flying New Phalcon AWACS


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## unicorn148

i dont think pakisthan will thing of bringing the erieye to the borders because the new ks 172 awacs killer missile carried by the su30mki with a range of 400 km is one of the best jointly developed by india and russia


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## TaimiKhan

unicorn148 said:


> i dont think pakisthan will thing of bringing the erieye to the borders because the new ks 172 awacs killer missile carried by the su30mki with a range of 400 km is one of the best jointly developed by india and russia



 dude, can't you come to the website by reading little bit about the things that you are gonna post ?? 

Do it, it will help you a lot in having a constructive conversation on this forum.

As a first step, read the official Saab website giving details about its Saab 2000 platform.

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Product...entrance=product&productid=1190&moreinfo=true

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## raveolution

ice_man said:


> besides the update time lag of 2 seconds and 20 seconds...as well as 30 degree fore & aft the range i think you are quoting is wrong! both have equal detection ranges my friend!



The difference that 2 seconds Vs 20 seconds makes a huge difference in an AWACS scenario, especially is a heavy EW environment. It can make all the difference as the IAF aircraft will get almost real time information whilst the other will so after 20 seconds, making a big difference in something called 'situational awareness', on which there is a very nice article posted on the JF-17 & MKI thread by a senior member.

As far as range is concerned, the Erieye has an instrumental range of 450 kms and a detection range of 350 kms for fighter size targets and the older Phalcon has a detection range of 400 kms, and the new Phalcon, if not more will be of the same range. The links are posted in my post on this same thread 2-3 days ago.



ice_man said:


> secondly as for FORE & AFT i ssue i hope you realzie one thing PAF will be flying its EREIYE close to the border not towards the border that would mean our broad side would be aimed towards the indian border.....anywayz yes the EREIYE might have some limitations compared to the PHALCON but that doesn't mean it is a useless platform!



Agreed. And yes, although the Erieye does have certain limitations, it is by no means useless. It fits the PAF's needs well. Additionally, PAF did not have a choice other than the Swedish or Chinese systems. A point is to be noted that the Phalcon is aboard the IL-76 which has a higher speed and endurance than the turboprop aircraft that the Eriyeye is based upon. The Phalcon can be refuelled in mid-air. Is that possible with the Erieye? Would like a link if anyone has one. Thanks in advance.



ice_man said:


> and the "most advanced AESA" what is that....and what makes the phalcon even "more advanced" than the E-3? don't throw words my friend back them up with sources!!!



I think it is just the no. of seconds issue and the fact that the latest Phalcon gives a higher resolution. 



unicorn148 said:


> i dont think pakisthan will thing of bringing the erieye to the borders because the new ks 172 awacs killer missile carried by the su30mki with a range of 400 km is one of the best jointly developed by india and russia



Unicorn, that is a possibility, but lets wait until the Novator K-100 arrives. It is in its final stages of development and trials aboard the MKI would start in the near future.


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## M_Saint

Ereiye AWACS was supposed to arrive at October. Does anyone know the exact date of its landing in Pindi?


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## Myth_buster_1

Why do indians love to go round and round in circles chasing their tale and ignore the reality to satisfy their dirty ego?
Sir gambit has professionally analyzed the subject which indians seem to ignore because it is not up to their taste. 
So lets say Erieye sucks and the radar is only comparable to futre MKI radar and both are mini AWACS. Phalcon is a super alien technology which no other human kind will posses other then great bharat.

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## PakShaheen79

unicorn148 said:


> i dont think pakisthan will thing of bringing the erieye to the borders because the new ks 172 awacs killer missile carried by the su30mki with a range of 400 km is one of the best jointly developed by india and russia



Oh ...Lord! Please slow down pal, KS-172 has a range of 200 KM and it is only future radar of MKI which will have a range of 400KM. And for your information to look into Indian space and land no need to bring Erieye on border.


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## fhassan

unicorn148 said:


> the range of erieye is 300 km
> PS-890 ERIEYE



Paindu, Pakistan is getting the *Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C *

Radar System performance:
 Active Phased Array Pulse Doppler multi-mode radar
 *450 km* range and above 20 km (65,000 ft) altitude coverage
 Effective surveillance area of 500,000 sq km
 Capable of combined air and sea surveillance
 Automatic tracking of priority air targets
 Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system

source:

Saab - Products A-Z

Saabs official website.

Check mate and have a nice day

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## mughaljee

Growler said:


> Why do indians love to go round and round in circles chasing their tale and ignore the reality to satisfy their dirty ego?
> Sir gambit has professionally analyzed the subject which indians seem to ignore because it does not up to their taste.
> So lets say Erieye sucks and the radar is only comparable to futre MKI radar and both are mini AWACS. Phalcon is a super alien technology which no other human kind will posses other then great bharat.



Sir, 
very good shot. *(dirty ego)*


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## unicorn148

PakShaheen79 said:


> Oh ...Lord! Please slow down pal, KS-172 has a range of 200 KM and it is only future radar of MKI which will have a range of 400KM. And for your information to look into Indian space and land no need to bring Erieye on border.




the min range of ks 172 is 200 km and max could be between 300-400km read properly and answer


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## unicorn148

erieye Max Detection Range 300 km (162 nm), Max Detection Range in Altitude 82,000 ft (24,994 m), Max Instrumented Range 450 km (243 nm) 
PS-890 ERIEYE
there is far much diff between detection range and instumental range


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## raveolution

PakShaheen79 said:


> Oh ...Lord! Please slow down pal, KS-172 has a range of 200 KM and it is only future radar of MKI which will have a range of 400KM. And for your information to look into Indian space and land no need to bring Erieye on border.



Sorry PakShaheen, just checked this one out on various sites other than wiki as well. It has a range of 400 km.

KS-172 RVV-L | Russian Arms, Military Technology, Analysis of Russia's Military Forces
Novator KS-172 AAM-L at AllExperts
Novator KS-172 AAM-L Aircraft Missile Aam-l Ks-172 Su-35 Speed
Pakistani Defence Forum > Russia&#39;s Ks-172 Ultra Long Range Anti Awac A-am


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## unicorn148

Growler said:


> Why do indians love to go round and round in circles chasing their tale and ignore the reality to satisfy their dirty ego?
> Sir gambit has professionally analyzed the subject which indians seem to ignore because it is not up to their taste.
> So lets say Erieye sucks and the radar is only comparable to futre MKI radar and both are mini AWACS. Phalcon is a super alien technology which no other human kind will posses other then great bharat.



we never said that phalcons are alien technology .the new phalcons are only with india and israil and no need to say that israil tech is one of the best in the world the phalcons are better than e-3
p://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=102&num=26121

and so it was u who's trying to satisfy ur dirty ego not us

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## Sapper

unicorn148 said:


> the min range of ks 172 is 200 km and max could be between 300-400km read properly and answer



So if the Erieye comes closer than 200km , it wont lock on ?

Dear, the Min range you are talking about is the ACTUAL range of the missile, and the Max range you are talking about is the "SPECULATED" range by media and fanbois.


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## mughaljee

unicorn148 said:


> we never said that phalcons are alien technology .the new phalcons are only with india and israil and no need to say that israil tech is one of the best in the world the phalcons are better than e-3
> p://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=102&num=26121
> 
> and so it was u who's trying to satisfy ur dirty ego not us



You forgot to point out one thing, with your source,

Defence & Arms *Last Updated: May 4th, 2007 - 10:48:12 *
Israel Now Flying New Phalcon AWACS 
By Aero News *2/10/06
Oct 4, 2006, 09:19* 

Man it was something (alien technology),
almost 2 & half years ago not now,(as source last updated)
*(Dirty Ego)*


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## unicorn148

the erieye were built in 1997 and the information i gave abt erieye is of 2007 and we cant expect it improve so much in 2 years because to develop a radar it takes years even pakisthan has ordered erieye many years back


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## unicorn148

Sapper said:


> So if the Erieye comes closer than 200km , it wont lock on ?
> 
> Dear, the Min range you are talking about is the ACTUAL range of the missile, and the Max range you are talking about is the "SPECULATED" range by media and fanbois.




ur r wrong mr sapper the min range is not the actual range of the missile the missile is in development and the missile range will be 300-400km


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## TangoViking

Made a wallpaper for you. 1920x1080.

http://img203.imageshack.us/i/saab2000erieye1920hdtv.jpg/

Direct link

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## Myth_buster_1

wow thanks for the pic man.. great lookin air craft!

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## Sapper

unicorn148 said:


> the missile is in development and the missile range will be 300-400km



DEAR, that is what "SPECULATED" means.


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## gambit

It is highly misleading to use maximum range to make any declaration as to which system is superior. Keep in mind that radar detection rely on Line-of-Sight (LoS). That mean from sea level to a certain altitude, neither the Eyrie nor the Phalcon is able to attain their maximum radar detection range.

This is an example of a nomograph...

Figure 3-9 Radar Line-of-Sight Range Nomograph

Here is where an airborne radar system differs from a ground antenna: As altitude increases, at some point, the radar's main beam must begin to sort of angle downward to maintain a fix on the Earth, unless the goal is to detect incoming objects from space.

Here is a chart illustrating the relationship between LoS and altitude...

Radio Line of Sight

At 10ft the transmitter can 'see' to about 4nm. At 15,000ft it is about 150nm. At 43,000ft it is about 260nm. Airliners' cruising altitude is around 35,000ft max, giving an LoS of between 220-230nm if someone want to transmit to the aircraft. Operationally speaking, an AWACS is best at the same cruising altitude as airliners do.

Example...

"Why Saudi Arabia Needs The AWACS"


> The "AWACS" can fly up to 40,000 feet altitude but its *radar elevation angle* is optimized for operations at 29,000 feet.



NATO AWACS - Frequently Asked Questions


> Q8. What is the E-3A's operational altitude?
> 
> A8. The E-3A normally operates at 30,000 ft (9,150m), which allows for optimum radar performance.



Why around 30,000-something ft alt best for AWACS? Clutter horizon.

All radar systems have a clutter region or threshold. These are detectable but *UNWANTED* signals such as cosmic background radiation, television, cellular communications, etc...etc...The Earth itself with uneven terrain, water and vegetation will produce unwanted radar reflections. The radar system will filter out these unwanted signals, anything else above the clutter region will be tagged as 'suspect'. Further, as the AWACS aircraft flies, changes in the Earth's topography, including bodies of water, will produce uneven clutter returns. Over a known area, we can program the system to remember the area's clutter threshold but it is best to have the system make on-the-fly adjustments. This is happening so fast in the background that it is tranparent to the users, as it should be. But as the transmitter gains altitude, if the main beam does not maintain radar contact with the Earth to establish this important clutter threshold, the system eventually will be looking at outer space and filter out the very low cosmic background radiation signals. Useless, unless the system is looking for the Space Shuttle or the ISS.

I said elsewhere here and I will repeat: That with radar, larger antenna is usually better. Power output is proportional to array dimension. Larger array mean a narrower main beam which equal to better target resolutions. But for an airborne transmitter, there is a limit to array dimensions before the radar antenna system itself become aerodynamically dangerous. That is why we have different AWACS configurations, from a rotodome to side mounted arrays, anything to increase power output to have greater detection distance.

Clutter horizon is properly defined as the furthest distance (point) on the Earth that a main beam can reach and still have sufficient radar echoes for the system to establish a clutter rejection threshold. Imagine sitting on the floor, touch the floor with one's hand, then walk the fingers away from one's body until arm's length. That point is called the 'clutter horizon'. Arm's length is antenna power output. Shorter arm will have shorter distance reached, hence shorter clutter horizon. So the reason why AWACS aircrafts are usually at between 30,000 to 40,000 ft altitude is because even though we want to be as high as possible, we are limited by current antenna engineering and by the need to establish Earth clutter horizon. This altitude range is good enough for us to see -- distance wise -- against targets at above or below the transmitter.

Moving on...

*Just because a radar, ground or airborne, claim a longer detection range than its competitors, it does not mean the system itself is overall superior.*

System design, manufacture and even usage can affect the performance parameters. For an AWACS platform, range accuracy is important. Range accuracy is the measure of a target as indicated versus absolute. A second important parameter is range resolution. This is crucial with multiple targets, especially if they are flying close together. Poor range resolution, or radar resolution cell, will display two (or more) targets as one, leading the operator to a potentially negative tactical position.

RADAR *PULSE *CHARACTERISTICS


> RANGE RESOLUTION.A radars resolution is its *ability to display multiple targets clearly and separately.*
> 
> Longer pulses have poorer range resolution. Targets too close together lose definition and become blurred.


Longer pulses have poorer range resolution, but longer pulses have greater range because of more power, as indicated by the same source above...


> Generally, longer pulses emitted from a radar return more power, thus increased target information and data reliability. *Longer pulses have the disadvantage in that fine details within the return echo may be lost.*


In today's modern militaries, preferences leans towards multi-role aircrafts, that mean from one moment I may face multiple bombers to the next moment those same bombers become fighters, battling their way out of the battlefield, land at home, refuel, rearm and come back to attack me again. My enemy is also my next door neighbor, not someone who must travel literally thousands of nm across sovereign airspaces that may or may not be hospitable to him. So which is better, greater range at the expense of ambiguous multiple target information, or less effective detection range but superior multiple target resolutions?

There are more important factors regarding potentially hostile targets. They are target detection, classification and identification. Target detection is self explanatory. Target classification is like saying 'big airplane' and 'small airplane'. Large aircrafts like the C-5 or the 747 airliner do not the same flight profile as fighter aircrafts. Their flight profile is that of a steady heading, altitude and speed, from one location point to the next. If I ignore a C-5 for a minute, odds are very good that despite the few miles he traveled, I would be able to locate and track him again. Target identification is more precise, that is when I can say 'C-5' instead of 'large transport', or 'F-16' instead of 'small aircraft'. Target classification is based upon profiles that can be common to many aircrafts. Target identification is based upon unique physical characteristics possess by one or very few. Target classification is like the generic 'mother' while target identification is *MY* mother. How many fighters out there whose intake is of the same location, dimensions and shape as the F-16's intake? On the other hand, the intakes of the MIG-25 and F-15 are nearly identical with the F-14's intakes close enough to the others'. I cannot afford to ignore fighters.

CombatAircraft.com - Formations

Those are the standard formations for flights of small and rapidly maneuverable aircrafts. A radar system with poor range resolution, meaning unable to distinguish individual fighters from each other in a single resolution cell, *COULD* mislead me into believing there is one or two large transports coming my way. As this 'transport' closes the distance, by the time my superior range radar managed to classify these aircrafts into armed fighter-bombers, not bomb laden F-15Es or runway cratering Tornados, it may be too late. The further from me that I can at least classify a target the more time I will have in formulating an appropriate response. The reason why AWACS sales brochures focuses so much on detection range is because it is the easiest figure to lure people into buying. Or into debates.

Clear as mud?

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## notorious_eagle

gambit said:


> Clear as mud?



Thank You Very Much for your post Sir, it was very informative. Just hope our Indian friends read your post and get this over there head that range is not everything, especially both enemies share borders.


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## ghazi52

gambit said:


> Clear as mud?




Great,
Thank you very much for your highly valued inputs.
I liked your style .


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## Arsalan

nicely summed up sir!
i guess it can end the long tiring debate regarding Erieye vs AWACS and blah blah,,,
i hope we can adopt this style where we can discuss the technical points of the system rahter then compare them with other and flame up a war,,,

great work,
thanks,

regards!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

unicorn148 said:


> the erieye were built in 1997 and the information i gave abt erieye is of 2007 and we cant expect it improve so much in 2 years because to develop a radar it takes years even pakisthan has ordered erieye many years back



they were ordered only after specific requirements and parameters could be met


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## PakShaheen79

unicorn148 said:


> ur r wrong mr sapper the min range is not the actual range of the missile the missile is in development and the missile range will be 300-400km



So if it is under development please refrain from bringing it in. No body is talking here about FT-2000A AWACS killer from China.



> *FT-2000*
> Country: China
> Basing: Land
> Details
> 
> In a report to Congress on May 28, 2004, the U.S. Department of Defense highlighted the major improvements that China has made to its air and missile defense systems over the past few years, including [the] development of an antiradiation SAM [surface-to-air missile], most likely intended to target AWACS [Airborne Warning and Control System] aircraft and standoff jamming platforms.(1)
> 
> 
> 
> The report was referring specifically to the FT-2000, a Chinese anti-radiation surface-to-air missile system designed to counter electronic jamming aircraft, AWACS aircraft, and other air radiation wave targets. Developed and manufactured by the China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation (CPMIEC) during the late 1990s, the FT-2000 is also believed to be capable of destroying tactical ballistic missiles, similar to the U.S. Patriot and the Russian S-300P systems on which it is based.(2) At present, two versions exist, the mobile FT-2000 and the fixed-based FT-2000A.(3)
> 
> 
> 
> The FT-2000 is the direct result of a concerted effort by China to eliminate an inherent vulnerability in medium- and long-range surface-to-air missiles: jamming. For decades, air and missile defense systems like the Patriot and the S-300P have been susceptible to advanced techniques designed to confuse or immobile their interceptor missiles and keep them from reaching their targets. One of the most common jamming devices is S- and C-band airborne noise. If used properly, this and other deception mechanisms lead to what is known as the suppression of enemy air defenses and allows attacking aircraft and missiles to proceed to their targets without challenge.(4)
> 
> 
> 
> The FT-2000 was designed to neutralize and counter these airborne jamming devices. It contains a passive radar target seeker programmed to detect the specific electromagnetic signals emanating from its target. *Essentially, the FT-2000 uses its targets own jamming frequencies against it.* In addition, the FT-2000 has a passive homing system that does not transmit electromagnetic waves, thus minimizing the chances that its enemies will detect it in time.(5) The system is equipped with modified HQ-9 interceptor missiles, each of which is 6.8 meters long, 0.47 meters in diameter, and has a launch weight of 1,300 kilograms. The HQ-9 missiles give the FT-2000 a range of 12 to 100 kilometers and an operating altitude of 3 to 20 kilometers. The mobile system is transported and launched on an 8 X 8 cross-country launcher with four canisters that resemble those used by the S-300P.(6)
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to the mobile FT-2000, China has developed a fixed-based variant, the FT-2000A. According to a recent Chinese sales brochure, the FT-2000A uses a highly-modified HQ-2 missile that has been equipped with passive radio frequency homing seekers. Each HQ-2 is armed with a 60-kilogram fragmentation warhead and has a range of 60 kilometers and a maximum altitude of 18 kilometers. Reports indicate that each FT-2000A battery consists of 12 missile launchers, each containing one missile, and a central control station. The central control station has one master passive sensor and three auxiliary passive sensors. The four sensors are capable of triangulating on electromagnetic signals in the 2- and 6-GHz frequency range, which covers most AWACS aircraft and other air radiation wave targets, thus earning it the nickname AWACS killer.(7)
> 
> 
> In addition to its role as an anti-radiation missile system, the FT-2000 also has advanced capability against tactical ballistic missiles, although this point is seldom mentioned. As Richard D. Fisher, Jr. has pointed out, Chinese officials at the 1998 Zhuhai Air Showshortly after plans for the FT-2000 had been unveiledstated that the FT-2000 was being developed into an active-guided missile that eventually would have the ability to shoot down short- and medium-range ballistic missiles.(8) Since the FT-2000 is based on comprehensive systems such as the U.S. Patriot and the S-300P, it is no surprise that it too has anti-missile capabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> *In October 2003, it was reported that China had closed a deal with its neighbor, Pakistan, to supply the latter with an unspecified number of FT-2000 missiles to counter Indias early warning capabilities. The China-Pakistan deal followed Indias own arrangement with Israel and Russia to install three Israeli Phalcon AWACS on Ilyushin Il-76 freighter aircraft, thus giving it an airborne early warning system*.(9) According to various news sources, shortly after India announced its acquisition of the Phalcon radars, Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, the head of Pakistans air force, visited China and conveyed Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharrafs wish to purchase an unspecified number of FT-2000s.(10)
> 
> 
> 
> The recent China-Pakistan arrangement may just be an attempt to maintain the delicate balance of power between India and Pakistan, both of which possess nuclear weapons. Yet according to an article published in Malaysia in January 2003, the Peoples Liberation Army is eager to export the FT-2000 around the globe.(11) It is entirely possible that AWACS killer air and missile defense systems like the FT-2000 will soon proliferate throughout Asia, Europe, and the Middle East, a development that would introduce a multitude of strategic problems for the U.S. and its allies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MissileThreat :: FT-2000


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## aimarraul



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## M_Saint

* Final Tests of First Erieye AEW&C Aircraft for Pakistan Have Started *


(Source: Saab AB; issued Oct. 21, 2009)




The first Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C aircraft for Pakistan has begun its final tests in Sweden. (Saab photo)In a ceremony in Linköping today Saab and the Pakistan Air Force celebrated the start of the final tests of the new Erieye AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control) aircraft. 

The aircraft is currently undergoing system tests in Sweden and will continue with follow on testing in Pakistan later this year. The tests aim is to evaluate the complete system including aircraft, radar, C2 system, communication and live situation picture including integration into the Pakistan Air Forces Command & Control Ground Environment. 

Saab signed a contract in October 2005 to supply an airborne surveillance system for Pakistan. The contract came into effect in June 2006. The system consists of three parts; an airborne segment, a ground based segment and logistics and support service. The airborne segment includes Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with the airborne early warning radar system Erieye. 

Pakistan has had a long standing requirement for an airborne system to perform continuous surveillance of air territory, borders and the sea. The new airborne surveillance system will, together with existing ground based radars, provide a more detailed picture to decision makers in order to conduct more efficient rescue operations as well as to counter potential threats to national security. 


Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defence to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers changing needs. 

-ends- 


Final Tests of First Erieye AEW&C Aircraft for Pakistan Have Started


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## Novice09

when Pakistan will get Erieye AEW&C and in what numbers?


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## was



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## Arsalan

Novice09 said:


> when Pakistan will get Erieye AEW&C and in what numbers?



will you bother taking out some time and go through the thread. you will find the answer to you qustion and in addition you will get a good lot of other valuable information. 
its hust a friendly advice bro,,

regards!


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## Novice09

arsalanaslam123 said:


> will you bother taking out some time and go through the thread. you will find the answer to you qustion and in addition you will get a good lot of other valuable information.
> its hust a friendly advice bro,,
> 
> regards!



Thanks for ur advise.  I thought to go for easy info


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## Arsalan

Novice09 said:


> Thanks for ur advise.  I thought to go for easy info



 well it is no problem for me to post it here, infact i may well earn a hit at thanks button from you for doing this but bro this will limit your knowledge. and you will keep on comming with such questions that have already been discussed time and time again. on other hand if you can go through last few pages you will not only find answer to this question but also find a lot of other intresting information that will surely help you.
thanks for understanding!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

It will be really interesting to see if PAF deploy Erieye in SWA operation for support of Pakistan army against TTP.


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## dbc

PakShaheen79 said:


> It will be really interesting to see if PAF deploy Erieye in SWA operation for support of Pakistan army against TTP.



Very unlikely, unless the Erieye can differentiate between a civilian pickup truck and a Taliban truck  
Airborne radars are not very effective for ground operations in mountainous terrain and the MMIC on the array are expensive and have a limited lifespan (approximately 1000 hours to MTBF).


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## gambit

notorious_eagle said:


> Thank You Very Much for your post Sir, it was very informative. Just hope our Indian friends read your post and get this over there head that *range is not everything*, especially both enemies share borders.


Maximum capable range is not everything, but can be helpful in some situations. Can be.

Lest anyone thinks I am making shyt up, here is another source and a couple of online tools to deal with the math...

Calculator - Free Online Javascript Calculator
Square Root Calculator
www.tscm.com/rdr-hori.pdf

Helpful in that radar horizon lesson are figures 2 and 3. The online calculators can help with the accompanying equations. Figures 2 and 3 are applicable to AWACS situations.

If the hostility between two sides have *NOT* yet escalated into open armed conflict, and there is a difference between hostility and armed conflict, then maximum effective detection range can be helpful because the AWACS is able to fly as close to the borders as possible without violating territorial airspace and escalating the hostility to armed conflict. By flying higher than 40,000ft you can be nosy deeper into enemy territory with 450km detection range than you could with 300km detection range.

But if the hostility is at open armed conflict, then *NO ONE* would dare to fly his AWACS so close to the borders lest it be taken out by enemy fighters with their air-air missiles, unless the AWACS has plenty of protection, of course. In an open armed conflict, violation of territorial airspaces is a given. That 150km difference between the two systems will be meaningless given the speed of the threats, which for the MIG-29 has the max of about 1,500km/h. The more important issue will be on how each side respond to incoming air threats -- bombers that *WILL* turn into fighters.

Superior detection range is best for surveillance missions when the AWACS is not busy thinking about survival as well as on supplying information.

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## iioal malik

Saab Erieye Explanied good info don't know if this has been shared b4


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## PakShaheen79

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Very unlikely, unless the Erieye can differentiate between a civilian pickup truck and a Taliban truck
> Airborne radars are not very effective for ground operations in mountainous terrain and the MMIC on the array are expensive and have a limited lifespan (approximately 1000 hours to MTBF).



I think with local people fled from area leaving only Taliban and Forces behind to fight each other it will be not that difficult once it is cleared that it is not friend.


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## Arsalan

well PakSaheen, yoou forced me to say some bitter words.. i may well get lot of spanking for being so harsh but this is what i feel. i know that army will face some difficulty as they have to take down enemy disguised as our own men but bro this may well be the time to take a bold step. we must keep in mind that with every passing day we are losing 10 -15 lives in other parts of the country and they too are all innocent men. in this case army will have to take a bold step to pace up the actions to whip out the terrorists from the region even if it cause some civilian casualities. what i am saying is not to carpet bomb the entire area killing every human being in the region but to not let go a terrorist just to safe a civilian as gernally that terrorist will be responsible for killing dozens in a sucide attack in any other part of the country.
i know that my word sound in human but friends what is happening all around us is also not act of a civilized race of humans!!
sorry if i hurt you guys,,

regards!

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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> It will be really interesting to see if PAF deploy Erieye in SWA operation for support of Pakistan army against TTP.


I Rather think UAVs will be better of there as Erieye would be better at Air and Sea Surveillance


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## Arsalan

if pakistan want to experience some high tech systems in the on goiing operation, the UAVs will be the obvious choice. sadly enough we still do not have a UCAV to keep an eye on suspects and hit em hard once found as culprit!! all we can taste for now is to keep an eye on them via the UAV and direct fire at them through ground forces!
AWE&C wont see any aaction, it is highly unlikely!!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well PakSaheen, yoou forced me to say some bitter words.. i may well get lot of spanking for being so harsh but this is what i feel. i know that army will face some difficulty as they have to take down enemy disguised as our own men but bro this may well be the time to take a bold step. we must keep in mind that with every passing day we are losing 10 -15 lives in other parts of the country and they too are all innocent men. in this case army will have to take a bold step to pace up the actions to whip out the terrorists from the region even if it cause some civilian casualities. what i am saying is not to carpet bomb the entire area killing every human being in the region but *to not let go a terrorist just to safe a civilian* as gernally that terrorist will be responsible for killing dozens in a sucide attack in any other part of the country.
> i know that my word sound in human but friends what is happening all around us is also not act of a civilized race of humans!!
> sorry if i hurt you guys,,
> 
> regards!



Well arsalanaslam123, yoou forced me to say some bitter words.. i may well get lot of spanking for being so harsh but this is what i feel.
I will not comment on tactical things as PA knows a lot better than what you and me know on this forum. But I am amazed how you simplified that PA must eliminate terrorists even if it comes at cost of civilian life. At least wasn't expecting something like this from you. Anyhow tell me if this is solution then on what moral basis we protest to US for drone attacks inside Pakistan?

This is exactly why people hate US around the world. They ruined millions of life in Iraq and Afghanistan just to get bunch of people out of power. PA is in very tough fight on physiological warfare and it need all the public support it can get and my friend it is not going to come with what you are suggested in your post above. 

BTW, Why your post was directed at me? I just asked a simple quesiton which you never answered in you post directed to me. I think you made a mistake and called me instead of someone else. Anyhow never mind.

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## Novice09

PakShaheen79 said:


> This is exactly why people hate US around the world. They ruined millions of life in Iraq and Afghanistan just to get bunch of people out of power.



@PakShaheen :
US can defend its stand on Afghanistan. But in case of Iraq  

The main reason to invade Iraq was oil and Bush's personal rivalry with Saddam (Since, Senior was unable to over throw Saddam, Junior did that). Also, their r rumors that 9-11 was planned by US (I don't agree to this because nobody will kill their owns). 

9/11 conspiracy theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also find the following on WIKI.

According to documents provided by former US Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, George W. Bush, ten days after taking office in January 2001, instructed his aides to look for a way to overthrow the Iraqi regime. A secret memo entitled "Plan for post-Saddam Iraq" was discussed in January and February 2001, and a Pentagon document dated March 5, 2001, and entitled "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield contracts", included a map of potential areas for petroleum exploration.


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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think with local people fled from area leaving only Taliban and Forces behind to fight each other it will be not that difficult once it is cleared that it is not friend.



that is what i responded to..
anyway it was not directed at you atall, infact it was just that you mentioned that it wont be a problem once we are cleared that the place is clear of friends and this made me say so. i dont know why you took it personally. moreover i never suggested, rahter i have mentioned in the previous post that the idea is not to kill each and every human inside the place to whip the bad ones out. this is what the US do and that why the world hates them as you suggested and we all know. all i say is that we must not let a terrorist go free just because we have a 50% chance that he might be one of our own. lok i agree that it may not earn lot of good name to PA but if you see the other side of the picture you can see that if we let go one bad man just because we feared that he might be a friend then he surely is going to bring down dozens of innocents in any other part of the country. this is how it goes.
anyway bro i never intended to hit you and neither have i done so.. let us get clear on this right here right now. i hope you understand,,

best regards!

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## Arsalan

Novice09 said:


> @PakShaheen :
> US can defend its stand on Afghanistan. But in case of Iraq



bro what makes them defend there case in Afghanistan..???
i would love if you can kindly explain,
thanks!!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> bro what makes them defend there case in Afghanistan..???
> i would love if you can kindly explain,
> thanks!!
> 
> regards!



Actually they can as this attack was mandated by UNO. But my point was US never had a plan what to do there after going in and secondly... I think after Taliban left Kabul it must be UN peace keepers to take charge and start building Afghan state and institutes...but on ground US treated UN mandate as if She was only member of UN in rest of the world.


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## Novice09

arsalanaslam123 said:


> bro what makes them defend there case in Afghanistan..???
> i would love if you can kindly explain,
> thanks!!
> 
> regards!



You have got answer for your question by *PakShaheen79*....

Also, US asked Taliban to handover Osama Bin Laden before initiating the WoT(An unsuccessful attempt till now)  
And if they can't defend their stand on Afghanistan, You and we cannot defend our stance on Pakistani Taliban and Naxals respectively.


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## Novice09

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think after Taliban left Kabul it must be UN peace keepers to take charge and start building Afghan state and institutes...but on ground US treated UN mandate as if She was only member of UN in rest of the world.



They are reaping the fruits of their doings by losing precious soldiers. don't u think so ???  For me UN should be termed as NATO with Russia and China having power to veto.


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## gullado

Good point


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## Wingman

Novice09 said:


> @PakShaheen :
> US can defend its stand on Afghanistan. But in case of Iraq
> 
> The main reason to invade Iraq was oil and Bush's personal rivalry with Saddam (Since, Senior was unable to over throw Saddam, Junior did that). Also, their r rumors that 9-11 was planned by US (I don't agree to this because nobody will kill their owns).
> 
> 9/11 conspiracy theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also find the following on WIKI.
> 
> According to documents provided by former US Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, George W. Bush, ten days after taking office in January 2001, instructed his aides to look for a way to overthrow the Iraqi regime. A secret memo entitled "Plan for post-Saddam Iraq" was discussed in January and February 2001, and a Pentagon document dated March 5, 2001, and entitled "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield contracts", included a map of potential areas for petroleum exploration.



I know this is off topic but USA wants every country to be evaded where there is oil, gold or any precious metal or thing. They had a well planned strategy for Arab countries in 1960's (Arab-Israel) Iran and Iraq in 1980's, Afghanistan and in Kuwait in 1990-91 and look they are still there in KSA. Now they they are looking for their next pray (infact they have looked a lot) that is Pakistan and I know one thing the last option for Pak will be use of nuclear weapon after all they are not meant to be placed in showcase


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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Actually they can as this attack was mandated by UNO. But my point was US never had a plan what to do there after going in and secondly... I think after Taliban left Kabul it must be UN peace keepers to take charge and start building Afghan state and institutes...but on ground US treated UN mandate as if She was only member of UN in rest of the world.



i never said that they cannot defend the attack of afghanistan as i agree it was passed by UN. but dear what do you have to say the current situation? what they are doing now?? is that also approved by the UN?? if yes then do you think UN is left with an crediability... this is whay i say tah US cannot justify what ever they are doing in Afghanistan!! 
moreover just 5 hours into the 9/11 and the US issues a statement claiming that Usama was involved in the act and UN never bothers to ask any proff of this claim, have the US ever presented and evidence before the world that it was actually the Talibans involved in 9/11 attacks apart from the hollywood stuff documentries thaat they keep on showing????

regards!


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## Novice09

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i never said that they cannot defend the attack of afghanistan as i agree it was passed by UN. but dear what do you have to say the current situation? what they are doing now?? is that also approved by the UN?? if yes then do you think UN is left with an crediability... this is whay i say tah US cannot justify what ever they are doing in Afghanistan!!
> moreover just 5 hours into the 9/11 and the US issues a statement claiming that Usama was involved in the act and UN never bothers to ask any proff of this claim, have the US ever presented and evidence before the world that it was actually the Talibans involved in 9/11 attacks apart from the hollywood stuff documentries thaat they keep on showing????
> 
> regards!



Keep your eye on Afghanistan issues. It is going to be another Vietnam for US.  Afghans will die but never ever allow other to rule them 

US policy:
*If you kill people that it is a crime, abuse of human rights; if we, than it's our right to safeguard our country*


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## ejaz007

This thread is regarding Pakistan AWACS not Afghanistan. Stick to the thread please.


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## Arsalan

thanks for reminding sir,, it really was going off-track.
so let us get back to bigeer and better things,,,

regards!


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## Adios Amigo

Here is a nice video. sorry if someone has already uploaded it.enjoy


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## mughaljee

yes already there.


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## mean_bird

some more pictures of Erieye in Granada:

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## PakShaheen79

Superb pics... Thanks mean_bird!

So when it will land of Pakistani base??


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## Novice09

http://www.defence.pk/forums/member...cture1770-air-s100b-argus-aewc-cutaway-lg.jpg


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## TOPGUN

We should be happy with wat we are gona get ! we should never compare our selves with others! waiting for these birds to come home..


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## mughaljee

Pls share some new pictures of Chines AWACs, which we probably will get in future.


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## Stealth

StealthQL-707PK said:


> Good News!!
> 
> *China's AWACS KJ 2000* Thread *here*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Pakistan Buys Chinese AWACS*
> Link
> 
> December 24, 2008: *Pakistan is buying a Chinese made AWACS (Air Warning And Control System) aircraft, for $278 million. China has been developing its own AWACS for eight years, ever since the U.S. forced Israel to back off selling China the Phalcon AWACS (which used some American technology). China then bought some AWACS from Russia, while hustling to develop their own.*
> 
> The Chinese Air Force was not happy with its four IL-76 AWACS (A-50s from Russia, converted to use Chinese KJ2000 radar systems) and smaller systems carried in the Chinese made Y8 aircraft. Meanwhile, the Chinese have been outfitting a Boeing 737-800 airliner as an AWACS aircraft. There may be as many as three of the 737 AWACS. These work much better.
> 
> The KJ2000 entered service last year. China has had to develop its own phased array radar for it. The Y8 based KJ2000 carries a flight crew of five and a mission (AWACS) crew of about a dozen. The aircraft can stay airborne for about seven hours per sortie. The KJ2000 radar has a range of about 300 kilometers, and the computer systems are supposed to be able to handle 5-10 fighters at a time, and keep track of several dozen enemy targets.
> 
> The 54 ton propeller driven Y8 (which is based on the Russian An-12) and 157 ton Il-76 jet are apparently considered less reliable, and more expensive to maintain, than the twin engine, 79 ton, Boeing 737-800. Chinese airlines (some of them controlled by the Chinese Air Force) have been using the 737-800 since 1999 (a year after this model entered service).



*MAN IF THATS TRUE WOW I LOVE THIS AWACSSS  

ANYONE CONFIRM THIS NEWS ?? any one have Airforce Authentic Source about PAF go for KJ2000 ????*


----------



## ejaz007

Stealth said:


> *MAN IF THATS TRUE WOW I LOVE THIS AWACSSS
> 
> ANYONE CONFIRM THIS NEWS ?? any one have Airforce Authentic Source about PAF go for KJ2000 ????*



The chances are that PAF shall be buying KJ-200 and not KJ-2000. The price also suggests that.


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## Waqas Dar

Great news indeed,

i am very happy to know that pakistan is progressing in this field too, the acquisition of both Saab 2000 and Chinese AWACS will pave the way for network centric warfare of PAF, i wish all the best to PAF


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## Stealth

Dont like KJ200 shape look so  to me


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## SBD-3

Yap even PAF ex-chief was not happy with it. But now we have to stick with it as it is similar to SAAB 2000 so no new heavy investment required.


----------



## sancho

ejaz007 said:


> The chances are that PAF shall be buying KJ-200 and not KJ-2000. The price also suggests that.


It would also depends on Russia, because the plattform of KJ-2000 is still a Russian IL A50/76. Anyway the radar system that the KJ-2000 use, will be available for PAF through KJ-200 with the Y8 plattform.


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## PakShaheen79

Air Chief Marshal Rao Suleman is on official visit to China these days. I think there will be extensive talks on PAF's AWACS and FC-20s.


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## SBD-3

KJ-200 is younger as compared to KJ-2000. it should be relatively advanced as it would benefit from both KJ-2000 and new developments in tech


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## mughaljee

Brother, 
As u said, 
"KJ-200 is younger as compared to KJ-2000 & relatively advanced" 
are we buying this now with TOT ?


----------



## truepakistani17

StealthQL-707PK said:


> Good News!!
> 
> *China's AWACS KJ 2000* Thread *here*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Pakistan Buys Chinese AWACS*
> Link
> 
> December 24, 2008: *Pakistan is buying a Chinese made AWACS (Air Warning And Control System) aircraft, for $278 million. China has been developing its own AWACS for eight years, ever since the U.S. forced Israel to back off selling China the Phalcon AWACS (which used some American technology). China then bought some AWACS from Russia, while hustling to develop their own.*
> 
> The Chinese Air Force was not happy with its four IL-76 AWACS (A-50s from Russia, converted to use Chinese KJ2000 radar systems) and smaller systems carried in the Chinese made Y8 aircraft. Meanwhile, the Chinese have been outfitting a Boeing 737-800 airliner as an AWACS aircraft. There may be as many as three of the 737 AWACS. These work much better.
> 
> The KJ2000 entered service last year. China has had to develop its own phased array radar for it. The Y8 based KJ2000 carries a flight crew of five and a mission (AWACS) crew of about a dozen. The aircraft can stay airborne for about seven hours per sortie. The KJ2000 radar has a range of about 300 kilometers, and the computer systems are supposed to be able to handle 5-10 fighters at a time, and keep track of several dozen enemy targets.
> 
> The 54 ton propeller driven Y8 (which is based on the Russian An-12) and 157 ton Il-76 jet are apparently considered less reliable, and more expensive to maintain, than the twin engine, 79 ton, Boeing 737-800. Chinese airlines (some of them controlled by the Chinese Air Force) have been using the 737-800 since 1999 (a year after this model entered service).



these are not the ones PAF is going for. we wwill be getting KJ200 and not KJ2000 from china


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## truepakistani17

mughaljee said:


> Brother,
> As u said,
> "KJ-200 is younger as compared to KJ-2000 & relatively advanced"
> are we buying this now with TOT ?



sir PAF is reported to have contributed in the development of this system. infact this was one f the reason that PAF decided to go for the chines system as it will get some technical knowledge from this system.


----------



## hj786

truepakistani17 said:


> sir PAF is reported to have contributed in the development of this system. infact this was one f the reason that PAF decided to go for the chines system as it will get some technical knowledge from this system.


Yup.

*
Pakistan Surmounts Sanctions To Revive Airpower - Defense News*
By Usman Ansari
Published: 9 February 2009


> Malik said this was linked to its considerable export potential, "as the JF-17 is the only medium-tech aircraft in this price bracket, so there is a queue of vendors wanting to supply systems for the aircraft."
> 
> December also saw Pakistan sign a $278 million deal for four Chinese KJ-2000/ZDK03 AEW&C aircraft, whose active electronically steered array radar is mounted on a turboprop-powered Y-8F600. It is somewhat similar to the Saab-2000-mounted Ericsson FRS-890 Erieye system on order from Sweden.
> *
> The ZDK-03 purchase, as with the joint JF-17 program, has an element of technology transfer, said defense analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium.
> 
> "The Pakistan Air Force sees this procurement of ZDK03 AEW&C as a long-term investment, enabling it to tap into the emerging Chinese capabilities in this field," Shabbir said. "A team of PAF engineers is already working with the Chinese into refining the performance of this system, and China is also helping to set up labs for advance avionics R&D within Pakistan."*


----------



## Quwa

An older article by tphuang:



> The other news from kanwa is on J-10/Y-8 AEW. It looks like PAF looks at these two as long term investment. At current time, it's focused on JF-17 and Erieye. Although funding could reduce the number of Erieye to even less than 7. For Y-8 AEW, PAF hopes to eventually use lessons here to develop it's own AEW platform



China Air and Naval Power: Search results for Pakistan AEW


----------



## Chanakyaa

Can saab and the Chinese AWACS Interlinked together to share data if both are in the air together.. are they compatible..?


----------



## MZUBAIR




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## Chanakyaa

Superb Pic.
Looks very much like the IL78 Platform.


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## SSGPA1

XiNiX said:


> Can saab and the Chinese AWACS Interlinked together to share data if both are in the air together.. are they compatible..?



I think they would because Chinese platform is based on Israeli tech.


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## unicorn148

SSGPA1 said:


> I think they would because Chinese platform is based on Israeli tech.



the chinese dont match the israil because us has not allowed it to sell their tech to china and one more prob is that china doesnt have enough IL76 planes to integrate its awacs and china has not placed any offers for new IL76 
kj 200 is old awacs of china which pakistan is planning to buy which is inferior to kj2000


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## ice_man

@hj786

when is the expected time of delivery for the ZDK03 AEW&C....? 

and what happened about our interest in HAWKEYE 2D mounted on a P3 orion?


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## abbasniazi

By Craig Hoyle

Pakistan's first of five Saab 2000-based airborne early warning and control aircraft has entered final system testing in Sweden, with the work having already demonstrated the capabilities of its integrated self-protection equipment.

Islamabad became the launch - and so far only - military customer for a Saab 2000 derivative when it signed a deal for the Saab Microwave Systems Erieye radar-equipped type in June 2006. Its first example made its flight debut from Saab's Link&#246;ping site in mid-2008.
Saab in early October announced the start of final system tests for Pakistan, and says its first aircraft will be flown to the country later this year to expand the work. The latter process will assess the "aircraft, radar, command and control system, communications and live situation picture into the Pakistan air force's command and control ground environment", it says.

Recent tests conducted in Sweden have included the release of flares intended to protect the modified regional turboprop against missile attack.









Saab has previously said that the AEW configuration developed for Pakistan includes five on-board operator stations, with the surveillance aircraft to have an operating ceiling of over 30,000ft (9,150m) and a mission endurance approaching 10h.

The Swedish manufacturer is promoting the AEW version of its Saab 2000 to other potential future customers, and is also offering to supply further variants of the type configured for tasks including maritime patrol and signals intelligence.

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## hj786

Saab 2000 Erieye looks great. 


ice_man said:


> @hj786
> when is the expected time of delivery for the ZDK03 AEW&C....?
> and what happened about our interest in HAWKEYE 2D mounted on a P3 orion?


I haven't found any source on the delivery of KJ-200/ZDK-03, but the contract was signed in December 2008 and the KJ-200 is already in production for the Chinese navy aviation wing. They have a few of them in service according to posters on Chinese forums.
Same with P-3 Hawkeye, the most up to date source I can find is this one: Pakistan Navy To Boost Air Surveillance Capability - Defense News
It quotes a Lockheed Martin official at IDEAS 2008 (which took place in late 2008) as saying that some P-3 Orions have been selected for installation of the Hawkeye AEW suite, but he gave no details on delivery dates.


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## MZUBAIR

StealthQL-707PK said:


> _Alright, we are getting KJ200, not 2000. That's good first step. _



No we are getting KJ2000


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## Arsalan

MZUBAIR said:


> No we are getting KJ2000



bro the one in the pic posted here is the Saab Erieye.
however as far as chines option is considered PAF is intrested in KJ200 and not KJ2000. please do some research on to....

for assistance, here is the KJ 200:

while the KJ 2000 is:


regards!


----------



## Quwa

The ZDK03/KJ200 will give the PAF a good basis to develop its own AEW&C-system for future requirements. In fact, Pakistan signed onto this project with the intention and guarantee to participate in ZDK03's development. My guess is that in the long run, the PAF is aiming for a Wedgetail-calibre system - and acquiring support from PLAAF in this regard shouldn't be a problem.

The second element would be a single platform that could be used for multiple mission systems. For example, note the Boeing 737 as a platform for the Wedgetail AEW&C and Poseidon MPA systems. Ideally, I think the Airbus A320 would make a good platform for a future AEW&C, future MPA and even our own J-STARS/SIGSTAR type system. Other potential platforms include the ATR-72 or even some of China's new aircraft in deveopment. In any case, it's clear that PAF does intend to keep importing AEW&C in the future, and the ZDK03 - despite its shortcomings - does provide that important base for PAF to work up from.


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## Arsalan

Mark Sien said:


> The ZDK03/KJ200 will give the PAF a good basis to develop its own AEW&C-system for future requirements. In fact, Pakistan signed onto this project with the intention and guarantee to participate in ZDK03's development. My guess is that in the long run, the PAF is aiming for a Wedgetail-calibre system - and acquiring support from PLAAF in this regard shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> The second element would be a single platform that could be used for multiple mission systems. For example, note the Boeing 737 as a platform for the Wedgetail AEW&C and Poseidon MPA systems. Ideally, I think the Airbus A320 would make a good platform for a future AEW&C, future MPA and even our own J-STARS/SIGSTAR type system. Other potential platforms include the ATR-72 or even some of China's new aircraft in deveopment. In any case, it's clear that PAF does intend to keep importing AEW&C in the future, and the ZDK03 - despite its shortcomings - does provide that important base for PAF to work up from.



exactly. this is the reason why PAF opted for this system even when the westren SAAB Erieye was also available!

regards!


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## pakpower

Why paf not going for KJ 2000? instead it is opting for lesser KJ 200 for direct competition with Phalcon paf must accuire some KJ 2000.


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## hj786

pakpower said:


> Why paf not going for KJ 2000? instead it is opting for lesser KJ 200 for direct competition with Phalcon paf must accuire some KJ 2000.



Its easy to sit there typing "phalcon is bigger and more expensive, so it must be much better and PAF need something just as big and expensive". Why don't you try explaining WHY the PAF need KJ-2000? Why aren't Erieye and ZDK-03 good enough?


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## pakpower

hj786 said:


> Its easy to sit there typing "phalcon is bigger and more expensive, so it must be much better and PAF need something just as big and expensive". Why don't you try explaining WHY the PAF need KJ-2000? Why aren't Erieye and ZDK-03 good enough?



Because of difference in performance specially in radar ranges and many more.


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## Stealth

Agreed. We go for KJ2000 rather thn go for KJ200. On the otherside we already go for SAAB platform similar to KJ200. Sometime look me soo stupid why we go for KJ200 ? better thn get more SAAB.

About Expensive KJ2000 we already maintain 25 years old (more cost more expensive to maintain such 20 years old aircraft rememebr we also have C-130s since last 20-25 years and (that time they are really xpensive). Point is CHINA KJ200 is useless platform for us better thn go for more saab and if intrested thn go for KJ2000 rather than go for KJ200.


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## PakShaheen79

Stealth said:


> Agreed. We go for KJ2000 rather thn go for KJ200. On the otherside we already go for SAAB platform similar to KJ200. Sometime look me soo stupid why we go for KJ200 ? better thn get more SAAB.
> 
> About Expensive KJ2000 we already maintain 25 years old (more cost more expensive to maintain such 20 years old aircraft rememebr we also have C-130s since last 20-25 years and (that time they are really xpensive). Point is CHINA KJ200 is useless platform for us better thn go for more saab and if intrested thn go for KJ2000 rather than go for KJ200.



Stealth if you read Mark's post again it clearly says Pakistan was included into KJ-200 program with the insurance of active part in development of the system,... No one know about the outcome of the project when compared to Erieye... to me intention of PAF is to have a capability to built them at home as they are simpler than Phalcon like systems which are complex and expensive.

Being a defensive air force i don't see any shortcomings in thinking of PAF. Self reliance is a long standing dream of Pakistan armed forces and airforce specially.


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## Stealth

PakShaheen79 said:


> Stealth if you read Mark's post again it clearly says Pakistan was included into KJ-200 program with the insurance of active part in development of the system,... No one know about the outcome of the project when compared to Erieye... to me intention of PAF is to have a capability to built them at home as they are simpler than Phalcon like systems which are complex and expensive.
> 
> Being a defensive air force i don't see any shortcomings in thinking of PAF. Self reliance is a long standing dream of Pakistan armed forces and airforce specially.



Dear seriously after even getting these Chines hardware i bet we are LACKING IN HUGE AMOUNT OF STATE OF THE ART TECHNOLGY (Quality) about quantity we have small country but before we have ahead over our enemy in Quality but now against Su30MKi, Phalcon, F18 or EF or Mig 35 or Rafale, Mig29, C17s, Hawkeye, maybe soon Apache etc WE ARE DAMN LACKING IN TECHONOLGY Qoute my words!


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## Patriot

Stealth said:


> Dear seriously after even getting these Chines hardware i bet we are LACKING IN HUGE AMOUNT OF STATE OF THE ART TECHNOLGY (Quality) about quantity we have small country but before we have ahead over our enemy in Quality but now against Su30MKi, Phalcon, F18 or EF or Mig 35 or Rafale, Mig29, C17s, Hawkeye, maybe soon Apache etc WE ARE DAMN LACKING IN TECHONOLGY Qoute my words!


They have the money, we dont!We can only buy what we can afford.Quote my words!


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## Stealth

Patriot said:


> They have the money, we dont!We can only buy what we can afford.Quote my words!



Our economy crisis starts from 2007 not before "Quote my words" + "We have very strong economy since 2003 - 2006 with huge $$ reserve. WHERE IS OUR MONEY ????? simply OUR SO CALLED SUPER DUPER LEADERS PUT ALL MONEY IN POCKETS AND MOVE ON! thats the simple anwer dont blame all the time MONEY because YES WE HAVE MONEY! but never spend @ proper place. look at PAF since 1990-2007 only 4-8 F16 LOL F7PG (nuthing State of Art in this aircraft even since enter in service time)  

Since last 20 years our leaders playing Cricket! even today we lost everymatch in Cricket as well! AIRFORCE INVENTORY Deal is out of Question because our leaders have thr own Issues. MODERNIZATION OF ANY MILITARY needs BRAIN before money!


Dont mind but fact is:

We dont have 1 single Foriegn Policy ( jahan America chahta hey jang shuru karo ham karnay lagtay hain) * WE DONT NEED MONEY TO STOP THIS!*

Lack in Leader ship (Blackwater asay ghoom rahe hey jesay unka mulk hey)* WE DONT NEED MONEY TO STOP THIS!*

Since 1990-2007 lac in State of the Art weapon still today (hamko ye nahe pata hamnay koon sa hatyaar kis market say uthana hey aur kesay modernization karna hey Army and Airforce ko bas jo jahan say mila baag paray lenay)


Our leaders have no brain no tactics how to DEMAND for weapon with anycountry jisnay offer ke koshi koshi chal paray uskay pechay! thats our policy frankly speaking Modernization need BRAIN not money and Please stop blaming all the time money we have crsis since last 2 years not since last 30 years!

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## hj786

pakpower said:


> Because of difference in performance specially in radar ranges and many more.


Maximum radar range stated for Erieye = *450 km*.
phalcon radar range:

1. "Over land... ranges of *400 km* are possible with tactical routing" according to Article #1347, The Value of the Phalcon AWACS for India, by IPCS (an Indian think-tank).

2. "... up to *400 km*" according to:
- India & Israel Talk On Three New Phalcon Aircrafts - India Plans to Buy 3 New Phalcon AWACS Aircraft from Israel
- India Today, 
- https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htecm/20070426.aspx

3. *400 km* according to:
- The Hindu : National : First Phalcon radar system to arrive in May, 
- Indian Air Force to get Israeli Phalcon radar in May - People's Daily Online 

Looks to me like Saab 2000 Erieye has a similar radar range as the phalcon, if not better. Which other performance differences are you talking about?

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## mughaljee

MZUBAIR said:


> No we are getting KJ2000


Which one is much advanced , KJ2000 , or KJ200, 
and which one we are getting.


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## sancho

hj786 said:


> Maximum radar range stated for Erieye = *450 km*.
> phalcon radar range:
> 
> 1. "Over land... ranges of *400 km* are possible with tactical routing" according to Article #1347, The Value of the Phalcon AWACS for India, by IPCS (an Indian think-tank)...
> 
> ...Looks to me like Saab 2000 Erieye has a similar radar range as the phalcon, if not better. Which other performance differences are you talking about?


Be fair mate! 
This is what your source number 1. really said:


> Over the Horizon Radar accrue to the Phalcon AWACS, by operating at about 30,000 feet and thus being able to monitor low level activity in the air space *up to ranges of 500 km*. On Indias western borders, such surveillance over sea will yield optimum results in reporting both air and sea activity. Over land, *advantages of detection ranges may have to be marginally forsaken to protect the AWACS aircraft against SAMS* but ranges of 400 km are possible with tactical routing


So the Phalcon has a range of 500 Km for low flying air targets, operated over the sea where it don't have to face SAMS. Over land it could be operated different to avoid such threats, then the range will be limited to 400Km.

However the more important point is, if you compare both aircrafts you have to keep attention to find sources that talks not only about ranges, but also about what kind of target! The Erieye for example is reported to have an instrumental detection range of 450Km, but the Saab brochure shows that it detects fighters in less than 400Km range, ships in less than 300Km and cruise missiles in less than 200Km. Those 450Km range might be for bigger aircrafts like transporters, or tankers.
So if 500Km is the max range of Phalcon, 400Km should be the range where it detects fighters!

I think both systems are comparable in their capabilities, but the main advantage for the Phalcon comes with the IL 76 plattform. It offers more space for more crew, equipment, bigger powerplants for the radar, in flight refueling, full 360° coverage, can carry more payload, more internal fuel, is faster, has more range and can fly higher. 

IL-76MF Operational Strategic Military Transport Airplane

http://products.saabgroup.com/PDBWebNew/GetFile.aspx?PathType=ProductFiles&FileType=Files&Id=8081

Most of these advantages are the same for KJ 2000 compared to Saab 2000 Erieye, so the plattform does make a difference.


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## lmjiao

mughaljee said:


> Which one is much advanced , KJ2000 , or KJ200,
> and which one we are getting.



KJ-2000 is much more advanced since it's also a air force command centre while KJ-200 is not. When in a war KJ-200 will follow the orders from KJ-2000.

Since Pakistan has also taken part in the development of KJ-200, she would get what she really needs.

It is also possible that Pakistan will product KJ-200 herself and sell it to other Muslim countries.

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## mughaljee

lmjiao said:


> KJ-2000 is much more advanced since it's also a air force command centre while KJ-200 is not. When in a war KJ-200 will follow the orders from KJ-2000.
> 
> Since Pakistan has also taken part in the development of KJ-200, she would get what she really needs.
> 
> It is also possible that Pakistan will product KJ-200 herself and sell it to other Muslim countries.


lmjiao 
Always  to  from

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## hj786

sancho said:


> Be fair mate!



You first mate! The source says ranges of 400 km are possible "over land" and the other 4 sources (some of them Indian) concur with this, although they don't mention "over land". None of the sources on the phalcon say anything about what kind of target their figures are against and why should I accept your guess that "400Km should be the range where phalcon detects fighters"? 
Sure the platform makes a difference, but that doesn't mean the Saab 2000 Erieye isn't good enough and needs replacing with something bigger and better.


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## pakpower

In my own opinion I really like to see KJ 2000 in PAF colours as it's a much better plartform as compare to KJ 200. No matter paf taken part in it's development or not paf should get both of them as they will be more beneficial specially against Indian Phalcons.


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## SBD-3

pakpower said:


> In my own opinion I really like to see KJ 2000 in PAF colours as it's a much better plartform as compare to KJ 200. No matter paf taken part in it's development or not paf should get both of them as they will be more beneficial specially against Indian Phalcons.



I don't know why do people get frustrated......we already going to have saab 2000 and KJ-200. These are enough.....We should acknowledge the fact that PLAAF has different requirements than PAF KJ-2000 would suit them, not necessarily us......we are good with these two.....Phalcon is an AWACS not a Raptor.....I still feel irritated for people who seem to loose faith in these two system....let me tell you one thing.....they meet our requirements.....so they are great

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## mughaljee

hasnain0099 said:


> ....let me tell you one thing.....they meet our requirements.....so they are great


By today, I will not as any question in this forum.

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## wangrong




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## wangrong




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## pakpower

hasnain0099 said:


> I don't know why do people get frustrated......we already going to have saab 2000 and KJ-200. These are enough.....We should acknowledge the fact that PLAAF has different requirements than PAF KJ-2000 would suit them, not necessarily us......we are good with these two.....Phalcon is an AWACS not a Raptor.....I still feel irritated for people who seem to loose faith in these two system....let me tell you one thing.....they meet our requirements.....so they are great


They maybe great in ur opinion but not in mine.

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## SBD-3

pakpower said:


> They maybe great in ur opinion but not in mine.


lolz  guess you should make a secret Pakpower AF


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## unicorn148

its difficult for pakisthan to get the kj 2000 because even china doesnt have IL 76 plances to place the radar so china has to develop its own plance or think of an alternative so it will take many years for pak to get a kj 2000 even if plans to buy one


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## hassan1

KJ-2000
http://img413.imageshack.us/i/kj200.jpg/
IL-78
http://img413.imageshack.us/i/il78.jpg/
KJ-200
http://img97.imageshack.us/i/kj200.jpg/


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## pakpower

hasnain0099 said:


> lolz  guess you should make a secret Pakpower AF


Do you think it's funny but not in reality you should have some reality checks seriously. Man oh man why we are fighting with each other in this time we really need to think against our enemy and doesn't have to pull each other legs like that.


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## sancho

hj786 said:


> You first mate! The source says ranges of 400 km are possible "over land" and the other 4 sources (some of them Indian) concur with this, although they don't mention "over land".


Yes, but you missed the important part again! If it is operated different to protect it self against SAM! If not (for example deeper in Indian airspace) it must be 500Km range again. 


hj786 said:


> None of the sources on the phalcon say anything about what kind of target their figures are against and why should I accept your guess that "400Km should be the range where phalcon detects fighters"?
> Sure the platform makes a difference, but that doesn't mean the Saab 2000 Erieye isn't good enough and needs replacing with something bigger and better.


I'm just saying that different sources are talking about different type of detection and as you said, only a few really point out detection against fighters. But if you think about the higher ceilling and the more power for the radar, there should be some advantage in range of detection or? 
Btw, I didn't say Saab 2000 isn't good enough, just wanted to point out that bigger systems do offer other/more advantages.


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## owais.usmani




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## Barrett

I haven't been able to keep a track of the thread ... can someone please provide the following information.

Induction of the Chinese Y8 and SAAB2000
Refueling capability 
Endurance
Anti-Jamming capability (Jamming-Resistant System)

Cheers


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## jawadqamar

Barrett said:


> I haven't been able to keep a track of the thread ... can someone please provide the following information.
> 
> Induction of the Chinese Y8 and SAAB2000
> Refueling capability
> Endurance
> Anti-Jamming capability (Jamming-Resistant System)
> 
> Cheers



The first Saab 2000 AEW & C platform will become operational with the Pakistan Air Force in late 2009, followed by three more in 2010. Ex-Air France Saab 2000s will be refurbished prior to being converted into AEW & C platforms. Also to be delivered are up to six ground receiving stations. Saab will provide an integrated logistics system (ILS) for these aircraft for a 35-year period.

Rao Qamar Suleman has said that first of Chinese airborne early warning and control aircraft is due to arrive in 2011 and the remaining three will be delivered in 2012.


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## Arsalan

jawadqamar said:


> The first Saab 2000 AEW & C platform will become operational with the Pakistan Air Force in late 2009, followed by three more in 2010. Ex-Air France Saab 2000s will be refurbished prior to being converted into AEW & C platforms. Also to be delivered are up to six ground receiving stations. Saab will provide an integrated logistics system (ILS) for these aircraft for a 35-year period.
> 
> Rao Qamar Suleman has said that first of Chinese airborne early warning and control aircraft is due to arrive in 2011 and the remaining three will be delivered in 2012.



i guess we are into the late 2009 now,, 
as far as i personally think the deleivery may well be delayed for as long as february march 2010!
however i agree the the end of 2009 is what is claimed by officials for the deleiver time fram of the erieyes!

regards!


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## Barrett

jawadqamar said:


> The first Saab 2000 AEW & C platform will become operational with the Pakistan Air Force in late 2009, followed by three more in 2010. Ex-Air France Saab 2000s will be refurbished prior to being converted into AEW & C platforms. Also to be delivered are up to six ground receiving stations. Saab will provide an integrated logistics system (ILS) for these aircraft for a 35-year period.
> 
> Rao Qamar Suleman has said that first of Chinese airborne early warning and control aircraft is due to arrive in 2011 and the remaining three will be delivered in 2012.



Bro are u saying total of four Saab2000 & another four chinese Y8 ?
I'm not really sure about this but i guess it's 2 Saab2000's and 2 Y8

Kindly provide a source 

Cheers


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## mean_bird

^^
IIRC, the order is 4 SAAB 2000 fitted with Erieye plus one SAAB 2000 as trainer/transport. (initially it were 7 planes but later reduced). The source(s) is somewhere within this thread but you will have to search for it.


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## jawadqamar

Barrett said:


> Bro are u saying total of four Saab2000 & another four chinese Y8 ?
> I'm not really sure about this but i guess it's 2 Saab2000's and 2 Y8
> 
> Kindly provide a source
> 
> Cheers



Here you go brother



> Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 
> Interview: Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Pakistan Air Force Chief of the Air Staff
> 
> Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent
> 
> Other elements of the *PAF's force expansion include the purchase of four Erieye airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft from Sweden*.
> 
> The PAF expects to receive the first of these aircraft by end of this year and the other three next year.
> 
> ACM Qamar said the *PAF has also signed a contract for the purchase of four Chinese airborne early warning and control aircraft*. The first of these is due to arrive in 2011 and the remaining three will be delivered in 2012.

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## unicorn148

pakisthan has ordered 4 saab Erieye airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft from Sweden out of which one is for training purpose remaining three will be for airforce use and 4 kj200 from china which will be delivered by 2012


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## TaimiKhan

unicorn148 said:


> pakisthan has ordered 4 saab Erieye airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft from Sweden out of which one is for training purpose remaining three will be for airforce use and 4 kj200 from china which will be delivered by 2012



5 Saab 2000 aircraft ordered, in which 4 would be equipped with Erieye AEW&C radar, one Saab 2000 aircraft already in PAF and training of pilots is being carried out. As for training of the radar personnel and the console operators that would be done on a ground based training facility simulating an actual cabin of Saab 2000 equipped with the radar. 

Plus Chinese AEW&C would be 4 also, making 8 in total AEW&C aircrafts with PAF.

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## Taha Samad

ok a good thing for PAF indeed..

but can someone of you shed some light on how PAF will go about protecting these assets in air in a war time scenerio? i mean will there be some dedicated squardon that will be stationed along with the aew&c's . 

another question are aew's escoeted over friendly airspace in a wartime scenerio or these aircrafts operate on their own at a safe distance from the border(i think 150-200km shall be enough in pakistan's case)

how will PAF use these platforms i mean in which areas? i think PAF would operate them in sargodha and mianwali area.what your opinion on that.

regards,
taha


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## TaimiKhan

tahasamad said:


> ok a good thing for PAF indeed..
> 
> but can someone of you shed some light on how PAF will go about protecting these assets in air in a war time scenerio? i mean will there be some dedicated squardon that will be stationed along with the aew&c's .
> 
> another question are aew's escoeted over friendly airspace in a wartime scenerio or these aircrafts operate on their own at a safe distance from the border(i think 150-200km shall be enough in pakistan's case)
> 
> how will PAF use these platforms i mean in which areas? i think PAF would operate them in sargodha and mianwali area.what your opinion on that.
> 
> regards,
> taha



Yes definitely they would be protected by air escorts during wartime, may be dedicated squadrons won't be needed, rather roles would be assigned to some of the aircrafts in a sqd from different airbases as the endurance of the Saab 2000 is more then the endurance of the fighter aircrafts in out service, so for continuous protection aircrafts would be changed too. For the time being one sqd of AEW&C would be stationed at Kamra and 2nd most probably in Jacobabad, with the new F-16s as from these both locations majority of the Pakistani territory can be looked after having the major installations covered and can also peek inside the indian territory giving ample warning to PAF for incoming fighters. If we get our hands on S-300/HQ-9 kind of SAM with atleast 150KM engagement range, it will be a great help in boosting the protection of the AEW&C assets and with just few batteries, maximum critical areas and boundary with India can be covered giving a very robust and good protection to our installations.

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## mughaljee

taimikhan said:


> Yes definitely they would be protected by air escorts during wartime, may be dedicated squadrons won't be needed, rather roles would be assigned to some of the aircrafts in a sqd from different airbases as the endurance of the Saab 2000 is more then the endurance of the fighter aircrafts in out service, so for continuous protection aircrafts would be changed too. For the time being one sqd of AEW&C would be stationed at Kamra and 2nd most probably in Jacobabad, with the new F-16s as from these both locations majority of the Pakistani territory can be looked after having the major installations covered and can also peek inside the indian territory giving ample warning to PAF for incoming fighters. If we get our hands on S-300/HQ-9 kind of SAM with atleast 150KM engagement range, it will be a great help in boosting the protection of the AEW&C assets and with just few batteries, maximum critical areas and boundary with India can be covered giving a very robust and good protection to our installations.


Nice judgment / information.

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## truepakistani17

sir the numeric aspect seem to be a real atraction with four SAAB Erieyes and four KJ200 that will come along with some technical experties but sir will these platforms be compatiable with one another. i mean to say that we can claim of haveing 8 AWE&C if they do support one another but if it is the other way we will have two batches of four planes that will need to be operated seprately.
what do you guys think of it?

thanks


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## TaimiKhan

truepakistani17 said:


> sir the numeric aspect seem to be a real atraction with four SAAB Erieyes and four KJ200 that will come along with some technical experties but sir will these platforms be compatiable with one another. i mean to say that we can claim of haveing 8 AWE&C if they do support one another but if it is the other way we will have two batches of four planes that will need to be operated seprately.
> what do you guys think of it?
> 
> thanks



PAF would definitely be looking into it and must have taken steps to rectify this problem as it can't have two separate systems with no inter communication or aircrafts who can't communicate with one system while it can with other. Just for example while talking to someone on the same issue, i found out that JF17 has western communication system and with it a datalink, so it its western then it means it can communicate with the western AEW&C platforms too. And if the Chinese AEW&C comes with a western compatible datalink system or for PAF a western communication system is installed, then hopefully it would also be compatible to all the aircrafts in service. 

Time will tell what the real picture would be, at this time we all can speculate. But PAF would not be sleeping and ignoring the fact.

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## Barrett

taimikhan said:


> PAF would definitely be looking into it and must have taken steps to rectify this problem as it can't have two separate systems with no inter communication or aircrafts who can't communicate with one system while it can with other. Just for example while talking to someone on the same issue, i found out that JF17 has western communication system and with it a datalink, so it its western then it means it can communicate with the western AEW&C platforms too. And if the Chinese AEW&C comes with a western compatible datalink system or for PAF a western communication system is installed, then hopefully it would also be compatible to all the aircrafts in service.
> 
> Time will tell what the real picture would be, at this time we all can speculate. But PAF would not be sleeping and ignoring the fact.



I don't know how much of this is true but what i've heard is that the chinese AEW&C will be used for the chinese planes(JF-17,FC-20) and the Saab2000 for the western planes (F-16's).


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## TaimiKhan

Barrett said:


> I don't know how much of this is true but what i've heard is that the chinese AEW&C will be used for the chinese planes(JF-17,FC-20) and the Saab2000 for the western planes (F-16's).



Kindly check the UHF/HF antenna below the nose on the JF-17 and if possible compare it to the antenna on C-130 which Pakistan recently got in service. Then compare the JF-17 UHF/HF antenna to the antenna placed on the Chinese PT-06 of FC-1/JF-17 and compare it also with the ones placed on Chinese J-10, hopefully you would get the difference and similarities.

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## Patriot

AFAIK Link-16 is installed in JF-17.There is no reason why JF-17 should NOT be able to communicate with Eriye provided it does have Link-16 installed.


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## jamalahmedkhan17

A very significant step towards the *network strategic warfare*.


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## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> Kindly check the UHF/HF antenna below the nose on the JF-17 and if possible compare it to the antenna on C-130 which Pakistan recently got in service. Then compare the JF-17 UHF/HF antenna to the antenna placed on the Chinese PT-06 of FC-1/JF-17 and compare it also with the ones placed on Chinese J-10, hopefully you would get the difference and similarities.



*JF-17's UHF/VHF Data chain antenna *


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## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> *JF-17's UHF/VHF Data chain antenna *



Thx, and comparing it to the Pt-06 antenna and also earlier Pt-04 antenna, clearly shows different antennas. Pt-06 would be Chinese origin as looks similar to the ones on J-10.

*PT-06*


*PT-04*


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## wangrong

In fact,PLAAF want to order JF-17.Now the problem is "*price*".Because PLAAF 

have not invested 1 cent in JF-17 project


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## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> In fact,PLAAF want to order JF-17.Now the problem is "*price*".Because PLAAF
> 
> have not invested 1 cent in JF-17 project



Well on Chinese side, i believe the Manufacturer did invest money, wasn't it a 50-50 project by PAC & the Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing (something like that). 

So in anyway it is a Chinese State owned company, shouldn't be a big problem. It would be a great treat to watch FC-1 in PLAAF formations. Plus if PLAAF did buy it, the export prospects would get a healthy boost.


----------



## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> Well on Chinese side, i believe the Manufacturer did invest money, wasn't it a 50-50 project by PAC & the Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing (something like that).
> 
> So in anyway it is a Chinese State owned company, shouldn't be a big problem. It would be a great treat to watch FC-1 in PLAAF formations. Plus if PLAAF did buy it, the export prospects would get a healthy boost.



1&#12289;Yse,the CAC did invest money(50% of JF-17 project), But PLAAF 

have not invested 1 cent in JF-17 project.

2&#12289;*the CAC has already become a listed company *

*a listed company shall be accountable to all shareholders. *

3&#12289;if PLAAF want to order JF-17,please increase price


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## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> 1&#12289;Yse,the CAC did invest money(50% of JF-17 project), But PLAAF
> 
> have not invested 1 cent in JF-17 project.
> 
> 2&#12289;*the CAC has already become a listed company *
> 
> *a listed company shall be accountable to all shareholders. *
> 
> 3&#12289;if PLAAF want to order JF-17,please increase price



Hmmm, well if they plan for a good number of FC-1s, may be the price will go down much more as i believe PAF is getting somewhere 20-25MUS$ a piece, and if more orders come, price will definitely drop more.


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## unicorn148

i think PLAAF will buy more J10 rather than buying JF17 because they are more advanced


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## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> Hmmm, well if they plan for a good number of FC-1s, may be the price will go down much more as i believe PAF is getting somewhere *20-25MUS$* a piece, and if more orders come, price will definitely drop more.



i think PAF's JF-17 about 12-18MUS$,other Countrys JF-17 about 

18-23MUS$

bcz:*1&#12289;PAF did invest money,so cheaper than other Country
2&#12289;J10A about 30MUS$,J10B about 40-45MUS$
3&#12289;different edition, different price (JF-17)*


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## ejaz007

PLAAF is still using fighters inferior to JF-17. There is no reason why PLAAF should not be interested in JF-17. It would be a better option to replace some of their J-7 fighters.


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## wangrong

ejaz007 said:


> PLAAF is still using fighters inferior to JF-17. There is no reason why PLAAF should not be interested in JF-17. It would be a better option to *replace some of their J-7 fighters*.



J7/J8/A5


----------



## Luftwaffe

The suggestion of replacing of all the fleet of J-7s, Q-5s different variants with J-10A/B seems unsound financially nonviable for PLAAF
You just cannot expect PLAAF to replace 900-950 of J-7/Q-5s with J-10s alone, J-17 is going through weapons testing phase and we know Chinese weapons have been and are being used, the collaboration on this project is equal i believe China will induct 400 J-17s if not more. back to AWACS/AEW&Cs topic


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## unicorn148

guys i think you are deviating from the topic


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## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> J7/J8/A5



A-5 i believe are being modified too for precision strike role and i believe a tandem seat version has also taken to the sky and replacement would be JH-7A, wouldn't it be??

Yes the J-7 around approx 500 or so need to be replaced, FC-1 is the best option, will be a good combination with J-10s, Su-30s/27s & J-11s. 

J-8 may be replaced by the Su/J-11 series fighters.


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## TaimiKhan

unicorn148 said:


> guys i think you are deviating from the topic



Sometimes little deviating is good  as the thread has seen a lot of discussion on the subject and now not much of info is available till some new news come to light.

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## SBD-3

wangrong said:


> 1&#12289;Yse,the CAC did invest money(50% of JF-17 project), But PLAAF
> 
> have not invested 1 cent in JF-17 project.
> 
> 2&#12289;*the CAC has already become a listed company *
> 
> *a listed company shall be accountable to all shareholders. *
> 
> 3&#12289;if PLAAF want to order JF-17,please increase price



but Govt should still be the dominant shareholder and holding BoD.


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## wangrong

A-5 i believe are being modified too for precision strike role and i believe a tandem seat version has also taken to the sky and replacement would be JH-7A, wouldn't it be??
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1&#12289;A-5 are being modified to for precision strike role &#65292;but they only to satisfy "*Low intensity war *



2&#12289;double seat version is A5's *Trainer aircraft *



3&#12289;PLAAF is satisfied with the JH7A's Attack capability &#65288;*air to sea and air to ground*),so PLAAF order only 100 su30MKK


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## TangoViking

*United Arab Emirates has ordered SAAB ERIEYE and first ERIEYE for Thailand has flown.*

Saab - AEW for United Arab Emirates

Saab - First flight for Thai AEW


----------



## owais.usmani

From SAAB's pavilion at Dubai Airshow 2009.


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## houshanghai

http://military.china.com/zh_cn/dljl/aew/y8/11042708/20060511/13307196.html
Yun-8 AWACS



Why does the airplane model have Pakistan's national flag?what news does have?

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## TaimiKhan

houshanghai said:


> Yun-8 AWACS



I believe this picture pretty sums it up that PAF will be getting the dome version, not the linear shaped version like Erieye.


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## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> I believe this picture pretty sums it up that PAF will be getting the dome version, not the linear shaped version like Erieye.



i agree with you

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## houshanghai

may be 

SAAB2000--f16

Yun8 AWACS--JF17,FC20


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## TaimiKhan

houshanghai said:


> may be
> 
> SAAB2000--f16
> 
> Yun8 AWACS--JF17,FC20



JF-17 has western communication equipment, so most probably it will be able to communicate with Saab 2000 too, and FC-20 would also be getting western comm equipment. 

I believe PAF would have looked into this issue long ago and taken care of it too, and if China can manufacture Link 16 etc kind of equipment for western countries and companies, it can also be installed in the AEW&C which will be procured by PAF. 

Chinese will install as per their standard, PAF can ask for western one. 

It has not been yet proven not told anywhere that these aircrafts won't be able to communicate with each other.


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## houshanghai

Yun8 AWACS partial technologies come from Israel's Phalcon . Yun8 AWACS should be the kj2000 propeller-driven aircraft version .Therefore PAF and PLAAF should have the means to communicate F16 with yun8 AWACS


Sorry, my pakistan friends, please forgive my poor English


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## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> JF-17 has western communication equipment, so most probably it will be able to communicate with Saab 2000 too, and FC-20 would also be getting western comm equipment.
> 
> I believe PAF would have looked into this issue long ago and taken care of it too, and if China can manufacture Link 16 etc kind of equipment for western countries and companies, it can also be installed in the AEW&C which will be procured by PAF.
> 
> Chinese will install as per their standard, PAF can ask for western one.
> 
> It has not been yet proven not told anywhere that these aircrafts won't be able to communicate with each other.



Technology is no problem ,the problem is US


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## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> Technology is no problem ,the problem is US



how come ??


----------



## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> how come ??



The US will not allow chinese to Contact their F16


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## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> The US will not allow chinese to Contact their F16



If the Chinese AEW&C has communication equipment or should i say data link which uses western communication protocol, then i believe something can be done to make both platforms talk. 

Chinese AEW&C is gonna just share information to the other platforms, it won't be putting F-16 technology in jeopardy. Data link is sharing of information, only difference would be equipment and the protocols being used for communication, just like we have in Windows or Linux protocols used for networking and information sharing. 

I will try to dig more into this, waiting for my source to be back and will search more through some net surfing.


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## Patriot

It was confirmed by Air Marshal Tanvir on TV that JF-17 will get Link-16 so it should be able to communicate with Swedish AWACS.(Link-16 is a western datalink)

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## houshanghai

YUN-8 is the digital entire glass cabin AWAC platform....

Possible paf not to need kj200,because saab2000 is better.

But paf likes Yun-8 platforms for the dome version AWAC ........


kj2000




IL76 cabin is the mechanical measuring appliance ...


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## TangoViking

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i guess we are into the late 2009 now,,
> as far as i personally think the deleivery may well be delayed for as long as february march 2010!
> however i agree the the end of 2009 is what is claimed by officials for the deleiver time fram of the erieyes!
> 
> regards!



Well...

There is three PAF Saab 2000AEW&C flying around Sweden since a while back and the first one of these is acting as the reference aircraft with installed test equipment. 

When everything is verified to be functional to customer satisfaction whatever required adjustments will be applied to the other 2. So even _if _there is a slight delay the other 2 would be delivered very shortly upon the first one. 

The 4th is a bit behind the rest but not by that much.

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## truepakistani17

so this means they will soon fly in,,
inshallah


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## pakpower

Patriot said:


> It was confirmed by Air Marshal Tanvir on TV that JF-17 will get Link-16 so it should be able to communicate with Swedish AWACS.(Link-16 is a western datalink)



Thanks for this useful info.

---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 AM ----------




houshanghai said:


> YUN-8 is the digital entire glass cabin AWAC platform....
> 
> Possible paf not to need kj200,because saab2000 is better.
> 
> But paf likes Yun-8 platforms for the dome version AWAC ........
> 
> 
> kj2000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IL76 cabin is the mechanical measuring appliance ...



Nice pics keep them coming.


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## SBD-3

pakpower said:


> Thanks for this useful info.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Nice pics keep them coming.



I don't know why are we getting KJ-2000 over and over again


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## unicorn148

pakisthan is not getting KJ2000 they are getting KJ200 because china dont have platform to support KJ2000


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## wangrong

unicorn148 said:


> pakisthan is not getting KJ2000 they are getting KJ200 because china dont have platform to support KJ2000



2012 
Y-20

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## TaimiKhan

unicorn148 said:


> pakisthan is not getting KJ2000 they are getting KJ200 because china dont have platform to support KJ2000



It would be better that first you understand what is KJ-2000 & KJ-200. 

Both are the designations given to the platforms in service with the PLAAF. KJ-2000 is the platform with a stationary radar dome on a IL-76/78 aircraft, while KJ-200 is the linear shaped radar placed on a Y-8 aircraft. KJ-2000 or KJ-200 are NOT the names of the radars, they are the names of the platforms comprising of the radar and aircraft.

What PAF has done and as per the model picture presented in the previous page by our Chinese member Wangrong, is that it ordered a platform which comprises of a Y-8 aircraft having a round radar dome, as shown in the above pictures. 

Now if you can see the above pictures the aircraft has a round housing having the radar, which means that this aircraft can support such a structure and the aircraft which was sent to Pakistan and seen at Chaklala airbase was the one being shown in the above pictures. 

Catch in all this discussion is that the *size* of the radar placed in the dome structure on the KJ-2000 platform would not be the same as placed on the Y-8 shown above and the one which PAF will get, so if the radar size is less then the one on KJ-2000, its weight will also be less, enough to be lifted by the Y-8 aircraft. And the range will also be less compared to the radar placed on KJ-2000.

All PAF need is an AEW&C which can look around for 350-400KM range as that is more then enough to give ample warning to PAF for incoming fighter aircrafts and as PAF's main role is to defend the airspace from Indian fighter aircrafts, and such range AEW&C can do its job. Our focus is India not a global dominance ambition.

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## ironman

Why using Y-8 while a better platform available(Y-9)..? I think PAF will go for Y-9. Can anybody confirm about the platform posted above. Is it Y-8 or Y-9?


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## wangrong

ironman said:


> Why using Y-8 while a better platform available(Y-9)..? I think PAF will go for Y-9. Can anybody confirm about the platform posted above. *Is it Y-8 or Y-*9?



it is Y8F-600

in fact Y8F-600=Y9

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## TaimiKhan

ironman said:


> Why using Y-8 while a better platform available(Y-9)..? I think PAF will go for Y-9. Can anybody confirm about the platform posted above. Is it Y-8 or Y-9?



A proper Y-9 is still in the design or should we say in the prototype manufacture stage. As it is being said to be in the C-130J class, Y-8-600 has much improvement over the earlier versions, but Y-9 will be having different specifications then this variant of Y8-600.


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## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> *A proper Y-9 is still in the design *or should we say in the prototype manufacture stage. As it is being said to be in the C-130J class, Y-8-600 has much improvement over the earlier versions, but Y-9 will be having different specifications then this variant of Y8-600.



Y8F-600=Y9


----------



## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> Y8F-600=Y9



Sorry to be asking, but a link to this would be helpful as what i have gone through Chinese defense forums, they say that Y8-600 is different then what Y-9 would be. Plus many articles say the same from Chinese sources and Chinese defence forums. 

This is the first time i have heard that Y8-600=Y-9


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## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> Sorry to be asking, but a link to this would be helpful as what i have gone through Chinese defense forums, *they say that Y8-600 is different then what Y-9 would be*. Plus many articles say the same from Chinese sources and Chinese defence forums.
> 
> This is the first time i have heard that Y8-600=Y-9





it's a old news,Y-9 is game over now

There have low *cost-effective *on Y-9,so ....


----------



## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> A proper Y-9 is still in the design or should we say in the prototype manufacture stage. As it is being said to be in the C-130J class, Y-8-600 has much improvement over the earlier versions, but Y-9 will be having different specifications then this variant of Y8-600.



*Y-9's Wind tunnel test*


----------



## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> it's a old news,Y-9 is game over now
> 
> There have low *cost-effective *on Y-9,so ....



OK......... Thx


----------



## M_Saint

TangoViking said:


> Well...
> 
> There is three PAF Saab 2000AEW&C flying around Sweden since a while back and the first one of these is acting as the reference aircraft with installed test equipment.
> 
> When everything is verified to be functional to customer satisfaction whatever required adjustments will be applied to the other 2. So even _if _there is a slight delay the other 2 would be delivered very shortly upon the first one.
> 
> The 4th is a bit behind the rest but not by that much.


The delivery date of the first Saab 2000AEW&C was set on Sept-OCT, 09, so why everything wasn't verified to be functional to PAF's satisfaction within that time frame? Why delaying trick on acquiring any teeth that could bite hard like 5-6 yrs span of F-Sola MLU, J-10's order got played unscrupulously whereas the hero that brought fast track 'Nuke state status' got humiliated? Furthermore, sky wasn't even limit of satisfaction but benchmark was definitely needed to be set; especially in a time, when IND and war party were conspiring to unleash any form of storms to disintegrate PAK. But where is the paranoia on PPP/MQM/MILITARY top brass's faces to save PAK?


----------



## TangoViking

M_Saint said:


> The delivery date of the first Saab 2000AEW&C was set on Sept-OCT, 09, so why everything wasn't verified to be functional to PAF's satisfaction within that time frame?



It wasn't set like that. These type of projects doesn't work with such fixed schedules. PAF is launch customer and there was never any plan to make the Erieye's actually operational in the PAF this year. Once it arrives. there will be several months of additional testing and training. 

More testing is done in Sweden as opposed to in Pakistan but that is not the same as a sign on any unsatisfaction. Be happy that no one is rushing the aircraft into service just to parade at airshows.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

A couple of months delay in this kind of project is not out of the ordinary---there is too much at stake for both the nations---none of them want to rush it up just for the sake of it.


----------



## Quwa

M_Saint said:


> The delivery date of the first Saab 2000AEW&C was set on Sept-OCT, 09, so why everything wasn't verified to be functional to PAF's satisfaction within that time frame? Why delaying trick on acquiring any teeth that could bite hard like 5-6 yrs span of F-Sola MLU, J-10's order got played unscrupulously whereas the hero that brought fast track 'Nuke state status' got humiliated? Furthermore, sky wasn't even limit of satisfaction but benchmark was definitely needed to be set; especially in a time, when IND and war party were conspiring to unleash any form of storms to disintegrate PAK. But where is the paranoia on PPP/MQM/MILITARY top brass's faces to save PAK?


A400 also faced delays for many countries, what does that mean?


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## Arsalan

yes delays of a moth or two dont hurt much if they are actually for good...
i agree that PAF wont want the aircraft as soon as possible just as a show peice but they actually want to make it a tru force multiplier.
hopefully we will see them soon

regards!

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## was

---------- Post added at 12:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 AM ----------



---------- Post added at 12:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 AM ----------


----------



## was

---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------


----------



## TOPGUN

Was can't see the images ?


----------



## SBD-3

*China Slightly Improved the Aerodynamic Configuration Design of KJ-200*









May.31 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng) &#8212; Some close pictures of the KJ-200 AEW Aircrafts flying above Beijing for future air parade have displayed that Chinese Air Force has slightly improved the aerodynamic configuration of tail control surfaces. The comparision of above pictures distinguished the newly-found vertical tails separately added on horizontal tail. Perhaps this improvement can provide strongful flight stability after the KJ-200 crash accident on June 3rd, 2006.


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## truepakistani17

it really will be a big force multiplier for PAF. consder a war time scenario with JF17z, J10 and F16s linked with some 8 AWE&C will surely make PAF a new outfit to confront with.
yes if the delay is for good purpose then it dont really matter a lot, hopefull it is for improving and analyzing the technical aspects and not due to some political issues..


----------



## Imran Khan




----------



## wangrong



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## Punch777

Hi guys check these picts.....prob ps and more like Wedgetail 

I can't paste the pict here coz I was told that I need another 15 post and if you go to sino defence forum and you can see on page 39 (chinese militry phots)....enjoy.


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## M_Saint

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> A couple of months delay in this kind of project is not out of the ordinary---there is too much at stake for both the nations---none of them want to rush it up just for the sake of it.


Hi,

It's true that the delay isn't out of ordinary but why does PAK-MIL have to be always in the receiving end that gets victimized by 6 yrs of deliberate procrastination of second hand MLUs whereas Jewish State becomes a party of JSF-35 without even participating in its development? What has IND paid to make U.S a lone Super Power as oppose to PAK in order to get all kinds of latest weapons in fast track? And why don't the type of yours tell it to Kapoor that a couple of months delay of war rhetorics along with yanks delaying on sending their troops wouldn't be out of the ordinary to contain Talibs since they have already spent eight years over there, while he is beating the war drum against PAK? Some people say that the so-called TTPs are security threat of PAK but guy like you are the existential threat of it to me.

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## BlackenTheSky

Are we really getting awacs 2000 saab..i heard we r getting in the end of oct,but the nov is going to end.


----------



## BATMAN

M_Saint said:


> Hi,
> 
> It's true that the delay isn't out of ordinary but why does PAK-MIL have to be always in the receiving end that gets victimized by 6 yrs of deliberate procrastination of second hand MLUs whereas Jewish State becomes a party of JSF-35 without even participating in its development? What has IND paid to make U.S a lone Super Power as oppose to PAK in order to get all kinds of latest weapons in fast track? And why don't the type of yours tell it to Kapoor that a couple of months delay of war rhetorics along with yanks delaying on sending their troops wouldn't be out of the ordinary to contain Talibs since they have already spent eight years over there, while he is beating the war drum against PAK? Some people say that the so-called TTPs are security threat of PAK but guy like you are the existential threat of it to me.



You seemed to be pulling the pieces together and this is the problme of US and india. sooner or later the evidence of US and indian coplicity in terror acts inside Pakistan will uncover and than their link with media will also be unearthed.
They are planning together to burry Pakistan with its evidence.
It is getting close for Pakistan, i doubt Pakistan will ever get any military assistance from US.
On the other hand india does not have functioning nuclear bomb or reliable missile programme.
If indians are serious about nuclear war than it must be US behind this hype.
Quitness of world over threats of nuclear war is self explanatory.

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## MastanKhan

M_Saint said:


> Hi,
> 
> It's true that the delay isn't out of ordinary but why does PAK-MIL have to be always in the receiving end that gets victimized by 6 yrs of deliberate procrastination of second hand MLUs whereas Jewish State becomes a party of JSF-35 without even participating in its development? What has IND paid to make U.S a lone Super Power as oppose to PAK in order to get all kinds of latest weapons in fast track? And why don't the type of yours tell it to Kapoor that a couple of months delay of war rhetorics along with yanks delaying on sending their troops wouldn't be out of the ordinary to contain Talibs since they have already spent eight years over there, while he is beating the war drum against PAK? Some people say that the so-called TTPs are security threat of PAK but guy like you are the existential threat of it to me.





Ok,

Thankyou---I don't know what you want to say---but still.

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## Arsalan

BATMAN said:


> You seemed to be pulling the pieces together and this is the problme of US and india. sooner or later the evidence of US and indian coplicity in terror acts inside Pakistan will uncover and *than their link with media will also be unearthed.*
> They are planning together to burry Pakistan with its evidence.
> It is getting close for Pakistan, i doubt Pakistan will ever get any military assistance from US.
> On the other hand india does not have functioning nuclear bomb or reliable missile programme.
> If indians are serious about nuclear war than it must be US behind this hype.
> Quitness of world over threats of nuclear war is self explanatory.



finally i have met a person who is hinking on the same lines....
whatever role our media is playing in current situation a dont have slightest of doubt that they have some connection with our enemies...

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Ok,
> 
> Thankyou---I don't know what you want to say---but still.



i also found it quite hard to uinderstand what he is trying to say so.......... finally i gave up.. 

regards!

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## DANGER-ZONE

where is that erieye,which was coming to Pakistan in november?????
lost somwhere,while tracking enemy aircrafts...!

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## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> where is that erieye,which was coming to Pakistan in november?????
> lost somwhere,while tracking enemy aircrafts...!



comming very soon... 
i just talked to my friend at PAF base sargodha, he is an aeronautical engg and according to him they are all set to welcome the bird.

regards!


----------



## Ababeel

arsalanaslam123 said:


> comming very soon...
> i just talked to my friend at PAF base sargodha, he is an aeronautical engg and according to him they are all set to welcome the bird.
> 
> regards!



I have a question in my mind:
Is it a right news that Pakistan and China are developing an AWACS system?
I forgot the name Y-8 or like that. Please reply


----------



## nightrider_saulat

*how many saab eriye are we getting?
and do we also getting chinese airborne early warning radar system*


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## Ababeel

5 SAAB Erieye systems in total plus some Chinese AWACS.


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## Barrett

nightrider_saulat said:


> *how many saab eriye are we getting?
> and do we also getting chinese airborne early warning radar system*



4 chinese Y9
4 Saab


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## TOPGUN

Correction 5 saab which one is being used as a traning platform. 4 chinesse platforms.


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## nightrider_saulat

Barrett said:


> 4 chinese Y9
> 4 Saab



and by which year they will be among us


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## Barrett

nightrider_saulat said:


> and by which year they will be among us



Here you go, courtesy *Jawadqamar*

Jane's Defence Weekly


Interview: Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Pakistan Air Force Chief of the Air Staff

Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent

Other elements of the PAF's force expansion include the purchase of four Erieye airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft from Sweden.

The PAF expects to receive the first of these aircraft by end of this year and the other three next year.

ACM Qamar said the PAF has also signed a contract for the purchase of four Chinese airborne early warning and control aircraft. The first of these is due to arrive in 2011 and the remaining three will be delivered in 2012.


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## Arsalan

with all respect to *TOPGUN, nightrider, barrett* and *ababeel* pakistan is going to get 5 SAAB systems, out of these four will have the AWE&C platform whereas the fifth one is just a plane with no erieye radar and is meant to be used for training.
for the chines system PAF is set to go for KJ200 also know as Y8 (Y8 is the plane on which the radar will be installed just like SAAB2000 is the plane on which Erieye will be installed). Pakistan have also participated in development of this platform however as far as the number are concerned there is no concrete report from any officials of PAF. it is generally said that PAF will eventually go for 4 KJ200 systems however as i said the numbers are not official.

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

4 ZDK03 will be purchased from China i.e. customized KJ-200. As far as Erieye is concerned please have patient they will be here before end of year, Inshallah.


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## TaimiKhan

The below pictures which recently surfaced and were posted by our dear friend wangrong a few pages before in this thread speaks volume about the system PAF is gonna have. If we go by this model, it means we are not getting a linear shaped radar on the Chinese platform, rather a dome version. And the aircraft which came to Chaklala was also a dome version not the linear shaped one, so both these things give credibility to the notion that we will not be getting a KJ200 system, but a miniature version of the radar or AEW&C being used on the Chinese KJ2000 (IL76/78). 

So PAF most probably would be using the 4 Saab 2000 platform Erieye Linear Shaped Radar AEW&C systems and 4 dome shaped radar Chinese AEW&C on a Chinese Y-8 platform & not the Linear shaped KJ200.

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## PakShaheen79

taimikhan

Nice observation and find. One more thing official calendar of PAF for 2009 also showed something like above pics. But on forums people are just sure what ZDK03 will be but again looking at above pics... We all might need to rethink about this plane


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## TaimiKhan

PakShaheen79 said:


> taimikhan
> 
> Nice observation and find. One more thing official calendar of PAF for 2009 also showed something like above pics. But on forums people are just sure what ZDK03 will be but again looking at above pics... We all might need to rethink about this plane



I myself find it amazing that even after these pictures were pasted, people still talk that PAF will get linear shaped version.

If we are getting one linear shaped version, doesn't implies that we have to get the other system also a linear shaped one. 

This pic clearly gives a msg that PAF will be getting the dome version.


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## M_Saint

BATMAN said:


> It is getting close for Pakistan, i doubt Pakistan will ever get any military assistance from US.
> On the other hand india does not have functioning nuclear bomb or reliable missile programme.
> If indians are serious about nuclear war than it must be US behind this hype.
> Quitness of world over threats of nuclear war is self explanatory.


Icing on the cake would be to inform you that 6yrs long of F-Solas MLU and P-3C's upgrade schemes of INDO-ZION's are to buy time and to use PAK nation to its peril. The sooner you understand and get out of the Mula/Carrot, better you would be, thanks.


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## Sapper

M_Saint said:


> Icing on the cake would be to inform you that 6yrs long of F-Solas MLU and P-3C's upgrade schemes of INDO-ZION's are to buy time and to use PAK nation to its peril. The sooner you understand and get out of the Mula/Carrot, better you would be, thanks.



Dear, we are already have shifted our focus ...

We have chosen FC1 + FC20 as future work horse of airforce, selected Chinese AWACS for induction, and preffered to inducted chinese Copters for Sea operation, inducted radars from non-US manufactureres, inducted SAMs from many many countries etc etc ... this is only a hint of things to come.

But we simply cannot discard our F16s and PC3s like junk, they are indeed a great investment, and we intend to use them to their fullest capacity, for as long as we can.


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## ghazi52

Sapper said:


> Dear, we are already have shifted our focus ...
> 
> But we simply cannot discard our F16s and PC3s like junk, they are indeed a great investment, and we intend to use them to their fullest capacity, for as long as we can.



yes, it is true, F16s and PC3s are by no mean junk. Pakistan can use them to their fullest capability, that I am sure.


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## BlackenTheSky

arsalanaslam123 said:


> comming very soon...
> i just talked to my friend at PAF base sargodha, he is an aeronautical engg and according to him they are all set to welcome the bird.
> 
> regards!



OH yeahhh..


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## M_Saint

Sapper said:


> But we simply cannot discard our F16s and PC3s like junk, they are indeed a great investment, and we intend to use them to their fullest capacity, for as long as we can.


When Bushist (Sorry for my language because I can't use anything better for a conscious baby, innocent Muslim-elder killers throughout the world) shoved $5.1 B deal through Mush's throat, I foresaw the current scenario and warned many in different sites; especially knowing that his mentors (INDO-ZION) were just throwing baits to hook GOP to take a long ride in order to decimate Muslims throughout the world. How did I know it? I would just say about hearing Cheney telling PAK-Mil would be required to win this INDO-ZION's murderous game. 

Trust me that was the worst of all investment, if it was investment at all. I lived in U.S and wanted betterment for its people than those murderous Bushits Mo fos, went to anti-war protests to show how much I cared for the humanity just not to waste any body's time here. Your so-called defeatists Army top brass, politician and bureaucrats sold the country just for money, loan waiver and thieveries. If you don't believe then check the list of NRO to see how many religious scholars names were there, thanks.


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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> 4 ZDK03 will be purchased from China i.e. customized KJ-200. As far as Erieye is concerned please have patient they will be here before end of year, Inshallah.



the number is not confirmed in any contract as yet.....

regards!


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## Arsalan

taimikhan said:


> The below pictures which recently surfaced and were posted by our dear friend wangrong a few pages before in this thread speaks volume about the system PAF is gonna have. If we go by this model, it means we are not getting a linear shaped radar on the Chinese platform, rather a dome version. And the aircraft which came to Chaklala was also a dome version not the linear shaped one, so both these things give credibility to the notion that we will not be getting a KJ200 system, but a miniature version of the radar or AEW&C being used on the Chinese KJ2000 (IL76/78).
> 
> So PAF most probably would be using the 4 Saab 2000 platform Erieye Linear Shaped Radar AEW&C systems and 4 dome shaped radar Chinese AEW&C on a Chinese Y-8 platform & not the Linear shaped KJ200.



well brother i dont know about this plane but one thing is for sure that it is not going to be a KJ2000. it is a big system and is caried by the much heavier Ilyushin Il-76 aircraft. the pics you have mentioned in you post show a Y8 aircraft carrying a dome shaped radar. one thing that comes to my mind is that may be this is the modification done to the KJ200 that we have been listening about that PAF have also participated in. i think like so as PAF after induction of a liner shaped AWE&C in form of erieye may have opted to go a dome shaped system to get better 360 degree coverage and for this reason this system that in shown in pic came into being. it may have basci specs quite similar to the original KJ200 but will gice a complete 360 degree coverage. as the general specs will be more or less same as the KJ200 so it wont get as expensive as the originally dome shaped KJ2000.
for me this is a good possibility, PAF modifying the KJ200 to a dome shape radar to get better all around situational awareness.
anyhow friends for the time being it isonly my personal opinion so any one may disagree with it. however i will try to check it with som of my sources.

regards!


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## Arsalan

taimikhan said:


> I myself find it amazing that even after these pictures were pasted, people still talk that PAF will get linear shaped version.
> 
> If we are getting one linear shaped version, doesn't implies that we have to get the other system also a linear shaped one.
> 
> This pic clearly gives a msg that PAF will be getting the dome version.



well it is not that people said that PAF will go for liner shaped version it is only that many people beleived that PAF is going for KJ200 (and that is liner in shape) and so was reported by various PAF officials on various occasion but they always added that PAF is developing or modifying it according to our requirments. so this make me say that this is what they called the modification,, the same KJ200 is a new shape with better coverage.
anyway Tamim what do you think about this possibility that i have mentioned in previous post. i will like to have your views on it bro..

regards!


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## Arsalan

StealthQL-707PK said:


> This thread create more confusion, look pages still exists. When I said PAF is getting dome version from China, someone said no, it is Linear shaped version (KJ200). Other member said no, it is dome version (KJ2000). Who care, just look at the picture#1324.... It is enough proof.



bro let me clear one thing, it is really wrong to say that PAF is going for a dome or a liner version,, the thing is that are we getting the KJ200 or the KJ2000. it was reported that PAF is getting KJ200 modified version and that is the reason that people beleived that it is going to be a liner shaped version. no one could have thought that the modification PAF talked about may well be actually changing the shape of the KJ200!!
i am a strong beleiver that whether it come in a liner or a dome sshape, the basic specs and price will be in range of the KJ200 and not with the much bigger and heavier KJ2000.
i hope you understand the point...

regards!

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Pakistan gets first AWACS aircraft from Sweden
Updated at: 1923 PST, Tuesday, December 08, 2009
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has acquired its first Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft SAB 2000 from Sweden today (Tuesday).

According to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), the sophisticated AWACS aircraft has been bought from Sweden. The aircraft will be used for aerial surveillance.

The aircraft will also enhance the operational capabilities of Pakistans air force.

Pakistan gets first AWACS aircraft from Sweden - GEO.tv


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## BlackenTheSky




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## Arsalan

well the pics indicated that it do not have the erieye system installed....


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## nwmalik

these pics are of the training aircraft which has been in pakistan for some time.
the crew have been getting flying practise.


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## BlackenTheSky

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well the pics indicated that it do not have the erieye system installed....



This is not that one...it has been with PAF since quiete few time and it used for VIP's and training process


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## Kompromat

Something like this!



---------- Post added at 03:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 AM ----------


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## Kompromat

Self delete


----------



## shchinese

Black blood said:


> Something like this!
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 AM ----------



4 of these have been ordered by Pak.

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## was

waste of money going for chinese system we could have spent the money to get few more erieyes.if we are buying chinese we should have opted for kj-2000 much more capable.as ex ACM said that musharaff ruined the erieye deal,i completely agree with him.


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## shchinese

was said:


> waste of money going for chinese system we could have spent the money to get few more erieyes.if we are buying chinese we should have opted for kj-2000 much more capable and.



you are wrong. 

erieyes can not cover 360 degrees not to mention targets on the ground.The KJ-200 is similar to the erieyes, Pak didn't order KJ-200 but instead Pak requested to design this Y-8 based new bird, there must be a reason. We even don't know the name of this bird, not in PLA service, not exported to any other country, but I am sure, there must be a pretty good reason why Kj-200 is not chosen by the Pak. 

KJ-2000 is great, but the problem is the IL-76 platform is not made in China and there is nothing China can do.

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## BlackenTheSky

Black blood said:


> Something like this!
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 AM ----------



I didnt liked the Aircraft.it should be changed or atleast painted in any other colour


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## TaimiKhan

dez said:


> I didnt liked the Aircraft.it should be changed or atleast painted in any other colour



Chinese testing platforms are mostly in such color combination.


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## BlackenTheSky

taimikhan said:


> Chinese testing platforms are mostly in such color combination.



So you mean that this Aircraft gonna be painted in different colour.?


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## BlackenTheSky

taimikhan said:


> Chinese testing platforms are mostly in such color combination.



And one more thing SIR,is this that one Aircraft which will be handed over to PAF or it is just similar to that?


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## TaimiKhan

dez said:


> So you mean that this Aircraft gonna be painted in different colour.?



When they enter PLAAF, they get the PLAAF color scheme, grayish kind, when they will enter PAF, they will get PAF color scheme as per their location.


----------



## PAFAce

Who gives a crap about how it looks or what color scheme it's got. Why does that stuff even matter? This is not a beauty contest, these are machines of war.

I wonder if, before they went to war, all the Roman soldiers cared what color scheme was on their shields. I wonder if, before Ghazwa-e-Badr, anybody cared about matching the color of their shoes with their turbans.



was said:


> waste of money going for chinese system we could have spent the money to get few more erieyes.if we are buying chinese we should have opted for kj-2000 much more capable.as ex ACM said that musharaff ruined the erieye deal,i completely agree with him.



The Chinese systems probably come with some kind of ToT. Or, at the very least, there will not be any embargo issues. It's not too different from the F-16 and the J-10 deal, but I agree, Erieye, at least on paper, seems a superior platform.

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## virkjee

Pakistan receives first AWACS aircraft : Pakistan Defence

why does the news on PDF says "*The Erieye system provides 300 degree coverage*" wasn't that 360 degree coverage, can any one explain


----------



## Kompromat

was said:


> waste of money going for chinese system we could have spent the money to get few more erieyes.if we are buying chinese we should have opted for kj-2000 much more capable.as ex ACM said that musharaff ruined the erieye deal,i completely agree with him.



And its a waste of time to read your comment , i am sorry for being rude but this is the reality unfortunately .

I guess Guys sitting there in AHQ in Islamabad start thinking where your mentality ends!!

Do not take it personal but your comment is absolutely ridiculous , Y8 is a great platform for our needs , who knows it has similar capabilities as KJ2k radar .

I would like every Pakistani member here to put one thing in their Head , " *A bird in a hand is better than nine in the bush*" 

If someone thinks that the Chinese technology is cheap hence degraded and inferior than i have not shame saying that those folks are living in Paradise of idiots.

We buy Chinese technology because we trust them they do not come with strings attacked to them , they come with TOT .

Pakistan may consider to get FC-20 certified production too ( TOT) There is a program for Joint AWACS , CUAV , and off course we will join hands with our Chinese friends for JXX too.

If any of the western countries do any single thing for you from the list up there i would bet anything for that!

Sweden had refused to sell Gripen dont forget that , our future industry lays in Joint production between Two red and one Green flags.
China Pakistan Turkey and this is where it ends...

Regards:

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## Kompromat




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## shchinese

virkjee said:


> Pakistan receives first AWACS aircraft : Pakistan Defence
> 
> why does the news on PDF says "*The Erieye system provides 300 degree coverage*" wasn't that 360 degree coverage, can any one explain



such radar determines 360 degree won't be possible. that is the reason why the Pak ordered the aboved mentioned Chinese one. 

in fact, no European country can provide you the ability of such 360 degree coverage plus tracking ground targets. check with your neighbor india, even their Israeli one doesn't come with ground targets tracking ability. 

one last big advantage: 

when it comes to war, we Chinese will keep working 24 hours a day for Pak to ensure you can have enough birds to counter your enemy.

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## mughaljee

shchinese said:


> one last big advantage:
> when it comes to war, we Chinese will keep working 24 hours a day for Pak to ensure you can have enough birds to counter your enemy.


Very right


----------



## truepakistani17

Black blood said:


> Something like this!
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 AM ----------



no no no 
it is the KJ200 that we will get from china.
*moreover the news that we have got an erieye from sweden is also not confirmed, atleast it is not with us here in pakistan as yet.*


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## TaimiKhan

truepakistani17 said:


> no no no
> it is the KJ200 that we will get from china.
> *moreover the news that we have got an erieye from sweden is also not confirmed, atleast it is not with us here in pakistan as yet.*



Well your agreeing or disagreeing doesn;t matter buddy, read the below mentioned link and page for further info and look at the latest pics of the models being shown by Chinese Manufacturer with Pakistan-China flag clearly seen. Mind it, these pictures of models are very recent giving much credibility to the notion of what kind of AEW&C we are gonna get from China. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...tan-awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-89.html#post567524

Post# 1355 above is also sufficient to your query. 

And as for the second part, below is the official notification by PAF on its official website regarding the Saab 2000 AEW&C

*PAF Receives its First Airborne Early Warning & Control Aircraft*

ISLAMABAD, 08 DECEMBER, 2009:- PAF today received first of its four Saab-
2000 Airborne Early Warning & Control aircraft from Sweden. T*he aircraft landed
at one of the PAF&#8217;s Main Operating Bases, marking achievement of a major
milestone in the overall modernization plan of PAF.*

With the induction of Swedish AEW&C system, PAF has become one of
the few air forces in the world to have Airborne Early Warning capability. Besides
detection of High and Medium altitude flying aircraft, this state-of-the-art system
is also capable of detecting low level flying objects over land & sea at extended
ranges; the system is capable of picking even the surface targets over the sea.
By virtue of these features, PAF would be able to boost its operational capability
manifold by achieving requisite early warning for efficient & meaningful Air
Defence of its airspace.

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## was

Black blood said:


> And its a waste of time to read your comment , i am sorry for being rude but this is the reality unfortunately .
> 
> I guess Guys sitting there in AHQ in Islamabad start thinking where your mentality ends!!
> 
> Do not take it personal but your comment is absolutely ridiculous , Y8 is a great platform for our needs , who knows it has similar capabilities as KJ2k radar .
> 
> I would like every Pakistani member here to put one thing in their Head , " *A bird in a hand is better than nine in the bush*"
> 
> If someone thinks that the Chinese technology is cheap hence degraded and inferior than i have not shame saying that those folks are living in Paradise of idiots.
> 
> We buy Chinese technology because we trust them they do not come with strings attacked to them , they come with TOT .
> 
> Pakistan may consider to get FC-20 certified production too ( TOT) There is a program for Joint AWACS , CUAV , and off course we will join hands with our Chinese friends for JXX too.
> 
> If any of the western countries do any single thing for you from the list up there i would bet anything for that!
> 
> Sweden had refused to sell Gripen dont forget that , our future industry lays in Joint production between Two red and one Green flags.
> China Pakistan Turkey and this is where it ends...
> 
> Regards:



lol relax. that was my opinion. no need to be rude


----------



## dbc

taimikhan said:


> The below pictures which recently surfaced and were posted by our dear friend wangrong a few pages before in this thread speaks volume about the system PAF is gonna have. If we go by this model, it means we are not getting a linear shaped radar on the Chinese platform, rather a dome version. And the aircraft which came to Chaklala was also a dome version not the linear shaped one, so both these things give credibility to the notion that we will not be getting a KJ200 system, *but a miniature version of the radar or AEW&C being used on the Chinese KJ2000 (IL76/78)*.
> 
> So PAF most probably would be using the 4 Saab 2000 platform Erieye Linear Shaped Radar AEW&C systems and 4 dome shaped radar Chinese AEW&C on a Chinese Y-8 platform & not the Linear shaped KJ200.



The below aircraft is in no way a "miniature version of the radar or AEW&C being used on the Chinese KJ2000"



The array configuration on the KJ-2000 is triangular on the Y-8 it is balance beam linear-shaped electronically steered phased-array radar. In terms of capability the Y-8 Pakistan is acquiring is comparable to the US platform E-2C Hawkeye that Pakistan turned down some time ago and inferior to the Erieye system Pakistan recently purchased from Sweden.


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## TaimiKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> *The below aircraft is in no way a "miniature version of the radar or AEW&C being used on the Chinese KJ2000"*
> 
> 
> 
> The array configuration on the KJ-2000 is triangular on the Y-8 it is balance beam linear-shaped electronically steered phased-array radar. In terms of capability the Y-8 Pakistan is acquiring is comparable to the US platform E-2C Hawkeye that Pakistan turned down some time ago and inferior to the Erieye system Pakistan recently purchased from Sweden.



In the picture that you have posted, what else do you see other then a dome version of an AESAradar placed on a Y-8. KJ-2000 uses an AESA radar, same AESA radar will be placed on the Y-8 which PAF will also be having. Only difference would be that the radar size on KJ-2000 would be huge compared to the one PAF would be getting as size & performance of the carrying platform is small, one uses a IL-76/78 aircraft, while on the other side we have a Y-8. So the type of radars won't be different, different would be their size, making a difference in their range, detection capability and handling capability. 

We have one Linear Shaped AESA radar version of AEW&C, while the second option would be the dome version Chinese platform. 

And its common sense that we can't compare a western system to a chinese system for now as China is new into the game, while the western system is an old player manufacturing these systems with years of research and experience behind it. So definitely Erieye would be superior to the Linear version of China, but we aren't having a Chinese Linear Version of AESA radar AEW&C.


----------



## shchinese

taimikhan said:


> In the picture that you have posted, what else do you see other then a dome version of an AESAradar placed on a Y-8. KJ-2000 uses an AESA radar, same AESA radar will be placed on the Y-8 which PAF will also be having. Only difference would be that the radar size on KJ-2000 would be huge compared to the one PAF would be getting as size & performance of the carrying platform is small, one uses a IL-76/78 aircraft, while on the other side we have a Y-8. So the type of radars won't be different, different would be their size, making a difference in their range, detection capability and handling capability.



indeed. 

the balance beam is for KJ-200 (which is also fitted onto a Y-8), but Pak never ordered that.


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## Quwa

Firstly, the ZDK03 is a long-term development programme, the present requirement will be met with the Erieye. Although PAF only ordered 4, this was due to financial constraints, and if times got better, the PAF may order the 2 it cut. In any case, the PAF will work with China to further develop the ZDK03 into a potent system, and may use it as a basis for a new-generation AEW&C later.

Secondly, the ZDK03 is indeed the phased-array KJ-200:

Pakistan Surmounts Sanctions To Revive Airpower - Defense News


----------



## TaimiKhan

Mark Sien said:


> Firstly, the ZDK03 is a long-term development programme, the present requirement will be met with the Erieye. Although PAF only ordered 4, this was due to financial constraints, and if times got better, the PAF may order the 2 it cut. In any case, the PAF will work with China to further develop the ZDK03 into a potent system, and may use it as a basis for a new-generation AEW&C later.
> 
> Secondly, the ZDK03 is indeed the phased-array KJ-200:
> 
> Pakistan Surmounts Sanctions To Revive Airpower - Defense News



"December also saw Pakistan sign a $278 million deal for four *Chinese KJ-2000*/ZDK03 AEW&C aircraft, whose active electronically steered array radar is mounted on a turboprop-powered Y-8F600. It is somewhat similar to the Saab-2000-mounted Ericsson FRS-890 Erieye system on order from Sweden."

The author says its a KJ-2000 system and then says its something similar to Saab Erieye. He himself is confused and doesn't knows 100&#37; what the real system would be like. 

I say again that we should analyze the facts for the time being we have in our hands and decide what type we are gonna end. 

- ZDK-03 is a completely different name given to the PAF system, if it had been KJ-200, something similar would have been used for it as in the past whatever Chinese system we have acquired, very much similar Chinese designations have been used for the platforms. 

- The AEW&C which came to Chaklala Airbase, Pakistan was a Dome version radar on a Y-8 platform, fortunately i did saw it fly on a few occasions when i was in Pindi, so why a dome version comes to Pakistan even when the Linear shaped KJ-200 was available & flying at that time and was available to be checked by Pakistan. So if KJ-200 was available and yet the dome version came to Pakistan, does suggests something that we are not interested in the linear shape version. 

- The above picture of the model of Y-8 with a dome version radar with Chinese & Pakistan flags with CETC written on it has not been seen for all this time, but it came up on the net recently as time comes nearby for the induction of the platform and posted by our friend Wangrong, whose other pictures of different aircraft have proven to be quiet right to exist. 

- Saab Erieye and the KJ-200 platforms can't give 360 degree coverage, so why will PAF go for more of these things which can't give 360 coverage ?? 

I hope time will tell what in reality we will be getting, but after analyzing some of the facts mentioned above, it is atleast clear to me that we are not getting the KJ-200 type AEW&C, rather its a dome version. If it had been KJ-200 linear shaped version we may have seen it by now as its already operational, but seeing just 4 platforms in PLAAF service for such a long time with no new additions may also suggest that China is either improving the current system or going for something else, due to which the induction of more KJ-200s have stopped.

And the article is of Feb 2009, nearly 10 months old item, at which time the above model picture was nowhere to be found, but once this picture came up, it has given more credibility to the notion that we are gonna get the dome version and not the linear shaped version.


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## Luftwaffe

zdk03 is very important to Pakistan if we want to have a future indigenous AWACS system with our future fleet of Thunders and FC-20..as Mark mentioned ZDK03 is long term development program. the prospect of project can be given importance from the angle that whether we get hawkeye2000 or not we need naval AWACs/AEW&Cs platform zdk03 could pose to be a very potent system.


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## shchinese

luftwaffe said:


> zdk03 is very important to Pakistan if we want to have a future indigenous AWACS system with our future fleet of Thunders and FC-20..as Mark mentioned ZDK03 is long term development program. the prospect of project can be given importance from the angle that whether we get hawkeye2000 or not we need naval AWACs/AEW&Cs platform zdk03 could pose to be a very potent system.



this balance beam based Y-8 simply can not be as good as the other Y-8 based one.


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## Luftwaffe

shchinese that is why the china is still working on the development of a potent AEW&Cs system that is just an image of what final product may look like work is underway progress has been made we simply can't say this is not good.


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## dbc

taimikhan said:


> In the picture that you have posted, what else do you see other then a dome version of an AESAradar placed on a Y-8. KJ-2000 uses an AESA radar, same AESA radar will be placed on the Y-8 which PAF will also be having. Only difference would be that the radar size on KJ-2000 would be huge compared to the one PAF would be getting as size & performance of the carrying platform is small, one uses a IL-76/78 aircraft, while on the other side we have a Y-8. So the type of radars won't be different, different would be their size, making a difference in their range, detection capability and handling capability.
> 
> We have one Linear Shaped AESA radar version of AEW&C, while the second option would be the dome version Chinese platform.
> 
> And its common sense that we can't compare a western system to a chinese system for now as China is new into the game, while the western system is an old player manufacturing these systems with years of research and experience behind it. So definitely Erieye would be superior to the Linear version of China, but we aren't having a Chinese Linear Version of AESA radar AEW&C.



Wrong, a rotodome can house a linear array balance beam, I think you have balance beam confused with linear-array radar like the Erieye PAF is acquiring. If you examine the rotodome on the Phalcon and KJ-2000 you will notice a silver triangle on the base & roof of the rotodome indicating that the array is arranged in a triangular configuration. 



In contrast, if you examine pictures of the Iranian AWACS





or the image I posted earlier you will notice a broad silverline going across the rotodome indicating the rotodome houses a linear array, balance beam simply refers to the shape of electromagnetic waves generated by the radar. Again, there is NO comparison between the KJ-2000 and Y-8 the KJ-2000 is in a different league.

The Y-8 PAF is acquiring from China is the one China is building for the export market that and the price of the system (278 m$) for the Y-8 vs (1.7 b$) for the Erieye is an indication of system capability.

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## Quwa

taimikhan said:


> "December also saw Pakistan sign a $278 million deal for four *Chinese KJ-2000*/ZDK03 AEW&C aircraft, whose active electronically steered array radar is mounted on a turboprop-powered Y-8F600. It is somewhat similar to the Saab-2000-mounted Ericsson FRS-890 Erieye system on order from Sweden."
> 
> 
> The author says its a KJ-2000 system and then says its something similar to Saab Erieye. He himself is confused and doesn't knows 100&#37; what the real system would be like.


Possibly a typo.


> - ZDK-03 is a completely different name given to the PAF system, if it had been KJ-200, something similar would have been used for it as in the past whatever Chinese system we have acquired, very much similar Chinese designations have been used for the platforms.


KJ-200 is ZDK03, confirmed by Usman Shabbir (most reliable source on Pakistani defence info available):

PakDef Forums - View Single Post - PAF related discussion: Sep &#8211; Dec 2008

Furthermore, in the September 2008 issue of AFM, the then PAF ACM - Tanvir Ahmad - said ZDK03 will have ""blade on top, not a rotating dome"

You can confirm it yourself by acquiring a hardcopy from AFM, but as it stands, the retired PAF ACM (officially reliable) AND Usman Shabbir (most reliable privately), both said ZDK03 is KJ-200.


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## TaimiKhan

Mark Sien said:


> Possibly a typo.
> 
> KJ-200 is ZDK03, confirmed by Usman Shabbir (most reliable source on Pakistani defence info available):
> 
> PakDef Forums - View Single Post - PAF related discussion: Sep  Dec 2008
> 
> Furthermore, in the September 2008 issue of AFM, the then PAF ACM - Tanvir Ahmad - said ZDK03 will have ""blade on top, not a rotating dome"
> 
> You can confirm it yourself by acquiring a hardcopy from AFM, but as it stands, the retired PAF ACM (officially reliable) AND Usman Shabbir (most reliable privately), both said ZDK03 is KJ-200.



OK Sir, lets wait then for a year or two, hopefully when it comes online, things would be much cleared then.


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## ejaz007

*Pakistan to get 3 more AWACS in 2010: Jatoi*


MULTAN: The country will receive three more Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) in 2010, Minister for Defence Production Abdul Qayyum Khan Jatoi said on Sunday. Speaking at a news conference, he said one AWACS plane had reached the country and three more were expected next year. Asked about the demand for a new province, Jatoi welcomed Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilanis statement in which the PM had said he never opposed the demand but that the present time was not suitable to raise such issues. Jatoi urged the provincial government to allocate more funds for the development of South Punjab. He also sought rightful allocation of resources from the National Finance Commission Award for the southern parts of the province. app


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## truepakistani17

i totally agree with you point of view. its features like detection range or simultaneous target monitering modes may well be same as that of KJ200 and not KJ2000 but it will feature a dome shaped version to givee 360 degree coverage.
this is what i think and have already been mentioned in some previous posts by some other members and is same as what you have said.

i hope it happens to be true because it will give a real boost to our air force. these AWE&Cz are force multipliers in true sense.

thanks


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## unicorn148

kj 2000 is far more advance than kj200 and you cant mount the radar on Y8 beacause its a small aircraft and pakithan has ordered KJ200 only


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## TaimiKhan

unicorn148 said:


> kj 2000 is far more advance than kj200 and you cant mount the radar on Y8 beacause its a small aircraft and pakithan has ordered KJ200 only



Before coming on the forum and putting in your useless one or two liner analytical master pieces, would be better if you check what the discussion is happening and would also be better if you see the picture of the model of Y-8 with KJ-2000 shaped smaller version radar on it, and also see the Y-8 testing platform with the KJ-2000 shaped smaller version radar fixed aircraft which came to Pakistan also, then do your master piece analysis, may be something useful comes out of them.

Catch is a SMALLER VERSION of an AESA radar placed in the configuration as seen on the KJ-2000 platform.

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## Sapper

It is also possible that the final product to Pakistan might have Y-9 instead of Y-8. But the confusion still remains.

I will prefer if PAF opts for Y9 with bigger radome, comparable to KJ2000 in size since China is also opting for Y9s since IL78 airframes are no longer available.

But discussing this is still full of speculations since a lot of time will pass (2~3 years) until we get a confirmation from reliable authentic sources.

Regards,
Sapper


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## ghazi52

shchinese said:


> when it comes to war, we Chinese will keep working 24 hours a day for Pak to ensure you can have enough birds to counter your enemy.



Thank you China.

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## gambit

Back in 1975, Boeing modified 707s to become AWACS involved intrusions of 18 inches deep into the fuselage. The rotodome was 30ft in diameter and weighed nearly 12,000 lbs. The mounting struts, designed to minimized aerodynamics wake over the entire tail section, added another 3,000 lbs. The turntable bearing assembly added about 2,300 lbs, it must rotated at 1/4 rpm even when the system is in non-transmit mode to keep lubricated. The entire structural support system must be doubly redundant to minimize the possibility of a mechanical failure, fatigue or combat, that would result in radome separation, which of course would be catastrophic for the aircraft. The summed up weight figure is only static, meaning stationary, load. Aerodynamic stresses in flight and maneuvers required the entire system to be mechanically overbuilt by %10 according to some conservative estimates.

The installation of an AESA array would lighten the load since there is no need for the turntable bearing assembly but the gains were not deemed to be overwhelmingly supportive to continue using the domed configuration. Improved AESA technology compelled the creation of the Saab's two-sided AESA array configuration. True...This configuration is limited to only 240 deg total coverage with degraded performance for each array at the 45 deg off-beam point and beyond. But the double-sided linear configuration allowed a much lower cost alternative, in purchase and long term maintenance, since the aircraft itself would not be an 'intercontinental' class aircraft like the 707. Lower cost also mean more numbers that can be deployed and that also equate to increased tactical flexibility. A paired and datalinked linear double-sided AWACS would offer the same coverage capability as the larger triple-sided dome but would have the ability to break off the pairing to respond to emergencies.

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## unicorn148

The Y-8F-400 was developed by Shaanxi in Aircraft Industry Corporation in 2001. The aircraft features a solid nose which replaced the Y-8&#8217;s original &#8216;glass-in&#8217; nose design, and a three-man flight crew. All windows on the fuselage were removed. A pair of vertical stabilisers are fitted on the tips of the tail-plane to enhance directional stability.

Little is known about the performance of the radar system fitted on the new Y-8 AEW. It was estimated that the aircraft may be comparable to the U.S. E-2C Hawkeye in terms of performance and capabilities.


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## unicorn148

this aircraft is small and capabilities will be limited same as E-2C Hawkeye 
Yun-8 Rotodome Airborne Early Warning Aircraft - SinoDefence.com


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## mshoaib61




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## mshoaib61




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## mshoaib61




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## mshoaib61




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## BlackenTheSky

^
Its KJ 2000 right


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## mshoaib61

^^ yes its kj 2000


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## Arsalan

well welll,
we all know it is KJ2000 but can anyone tell what is it doing here on this forum other then creating confusion.
brother they really were nice pics but it would have been much better if you would have put them in media section rather then on this very forum meant to discuss PAF future procurements of AWE&C and with already existing doubts about the chines system that whether it would be KJ200 or KJ2000 and whether it will have a liner radar or a dome version, these pictures will add to confusion.
i hope you understand and take it as a friendly advice.

regards!


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## MZUBAIR

mshoaib61 said:


>



Its KJ2000, but PAF bought KJ200.

*Its KJ200 (top)*




It would be having Antineea on top, like this one (below).



Its not that advanced like KJ-2000 or Saab 2000


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## MZUBAIR

KJ-200 for PAF


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## MZUBAIR

---------- Post added at 07:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 AM ----------







---------- Post added at 07:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 AM ----------









*JF-17 and F-7PG would be used with KJ200*


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## mshoaib61

Not any offense taken..
I will be careful next time in posting pictures in the rite section


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## MZUBAIR




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## MZUBAIR

*JF-17 and F-7PG would be used with KJ200*


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## Arsalan

mshoaib61 said:


> Not any offense taken..
> I will be careful next time in posting pictures in the rite section



i really appreciate you understanding of the matter...

best wishes,


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## Arsalan

MZUBAIR said:


> *JF-17 and F-7PG would be used with KJ200*



not sure about the F7PGs,,
however in future the ZDK will have the all important role of supporting the front liner, the FC20!!

regards!


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## r0ck

MZUBAIR said:


> *JF-17 and F-7PG would be used with KJ200*



Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

The Indian Phalcon AWACS will be compatible with every aircraft in the IAF inventory. Right? On the other hand PAF would be operating 2 different AWACS i.e. Saab 2000 and KJ-200, but these would serve as specialised AWACS platforms, one only for western aircraft and the other only for chinese. 

Now are there any developments to make these two AEW&C systems universally compatible with the PAF inventory? Because operating a single AWACS platform at any time, is a lot more cost-efficient, streamlined and is less prone to training issues/errors than having two specialized aircrafts.


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## Barrett

r0ck said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> The Indian Phalcon AWACS will be compatible with every aircraft in the IAF inventory. Right? On the other hand PAF would be operating 2 different AWACS i.e. Saab 2000 and KJ-200, but these would serve as specialised AWACS platforms, one only for western aircraft and the other only for chinese.
> 
> Now are there any developments to make these two AEW&C systems universally compatible with the PAF inventory? Because operating a single AWACS platform at any time, is a lot more cost-efficient, streamlined and is less prone to training issues/errors than having two specialized aircrafts.







taimikhan said:


> PAF would definitely be looking into it and must have taken steps to rectify this problem as it can't have two separate systems with no inter communication or aircrafts who can't communicate with one system while it can with other. Just for example while talking to someone on the same issue, i found out that JF17 has western communication system and with it a datalink, so it its western then it means it can communicate with the western AEW&C platforms too. And if the Chinese AEW&C comes with a western compatible datalink system or for PAF a western communication system is installed, then hopefully it would also be compatible to all the aircrafts in service.
> 
> Time will tell what the real picture would be, at this time we all can speculate. But PAF would not be sleeping and ignoring the fact.
> I don't know how much of this is true but what i've heard is that the chinese AEW&C will be used for the chinese planes(JF-17,FC-20) and the Saab2000 for the western planes (F-16's).



Brother I once had a similar query and this is the reply I got from Taimi.
I hope this will help, but I'm still not sure about the rest of the older Chinese planes we have in service like the F-7PG & A-5Phantan.

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## Sapper

r0ck said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> The Indian Phalcon AWACS will be compatible with every aircraft in the IAF inventory. Right? On the other hand PAF would be operating 2 different AWACS i.e. Saab 2000 and KJ-200, but these would serve as specialised AWACS platforms, one only for western aircraft and the other only for chinese.
> 
> Now are there any developments to make these two AEW&C systems universally compatible with the PAF inventory? Because operating a single AWACS platform at any time, is a lot more cost-efficient, streamlined and is less prone to training issues/errors than having two specialized aircrafts.



Dear, no body knows what PAF is upto, they don't let any information surface until they think otherwise.

Saab 2000 uses Link16 system, which is practically available for all NATO countries as well. On the other hand Russian's (and probably Chinese too) use their own data links, and thats why Indian Su30s had poor situational awareness in the infamous Red-Flag-Nellis.

I am listing a few snipets of information we currently have.

Against:
1. China does not use Link16 for their domestic jets.
2. China has never owned or operated any fighter that has/had Link16 system.

For:
1. Since long China has enabled PAF to incorporate western radars-avionics and armaments to be supported and used with Chinese built aircraft, and I don't thing they are going to pull out this time as well.
2. China has successfully incorporated MIL-STD-1553B databus architecture for its JF17+J10 platforms, thus allowing compatibility with western avionics. This also means that more western avionics platform might already have been incorporated/integrated or at-least being worked upon.
3. The Chinese J10 and JF17 in Chinese operation have different data link antennas when compared with JF17s that have entered PAF service, indicating that there might have been some difference in base architecture, or at-least the possibility of incorporation of a different data-link, i.e. Link16.
4. PAF has not finalized the radars for JF17 and FC20. Although a first batch of 50 JF17s is already being fast paced to be used as stop gap measure, but the selection of radar is still not finalized. PAF might have delayed their decision to check compatibility of Chinese Radars/Avionics with the first example of Link16 system in Pakistan i.e. Saab2000. Now that we have both the exemplar and the testbed, we will surely know if Chinese are able to link their avionics with the Saab2000 we have, and to what extent.

The probability is 4 to 2 in favor of Link16 aboard JF17 ... lets hope and pray for the best.

Regards,
Sapper

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## unicorn148

pakithan is planning to use western radars for its JF17 and FC20 so than it can use western AWACS because chinese radar cant be linked with the western AWACS


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## mughaljee

Brothers, 
clear one thing, KJ-2000, 
are we getting this with TOT. ?


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## unicorn148

pakisthan is not getting KJ2000 its getiing KJ200 .


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## Sapper

mughaljee said:


> Brothers,
> clear me one thing, KJ-2000,
> are we getting this with TOT. ?



Dear, we are getting ZDK-03 which is loosely based on KJ200 and not KJ2000.
Again, we are not getting KJ2000.

And yes, we are getting it with very limited ToT, which means that Pakistan may be given some technology for limited maintenance and repair of its own platforms, but Pakistan will not be "manufacturing" one itself.

Regards,
Sapper

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## TaimiKhan

unicorn148 said:


> pakithan is planning to use western radars for its JF17 and FC20 so than it can use western AWACS because chinese radar cant be linked with the western AWACS



You should better read something on the topic before coming on the forum and speak about things which you don't know. 

Radars don't talk to each, aircrafts communicate via the datalink which sends the data in its own format after getting it from the aircraft avionics or radar or the controllers transmit the output of the radar to the pilots and control them. 

Learn first how aircraft communicate with each other. 

Radar gives the info and the info is transmitted to the other aircraft which is received by the receiving aircraft communication equipment and it then transforms the data received to the MFDs of the controller. 

Same case with AWACS, they send the information through the communication equipment, received by the aircraft and displayed. 

Its all about how the data is transmitted between the radar processors and the communication equipment in the aircraft, which is then send. 

Same case like your computer, you have a DSL line which is basically sending electronic signals, you surf the net, you have no idea what communication is happening between the systems. Your modem/LAN card receives the signals via cable, but the computer processor processes the data, interprets it, sends it to the video card, which further sends the data to the monitor. 

Hope so you got the point that how aircraft communication would work too, even if we have Chinese radar, but if it can be made to communicate with western datalink system, then we have no issue in whether we have a chinese awac or western awac or even aircraft.

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## TaimiKhan

Barrett said:


> Brother I once had a similar query and this is the reply I got from Taimi.
> I hope this will help, but I'm still not sure about the rest of the older Chinese planes we have in service like the F-7PG & A-5Phantan.



Thanks for referring the previous post of mine, just to elaborate further here are some pics of the PAF aircraft showing their communication antenna. You will find they are all same in make, even JF-17 has such antenna and seen it on some of the new C-130s too, making it credible that PAF is looking into making all the PAF aircraft compatible in communication field. As for A-5, well no need for it to be upgraded as its days are numbered, in most probably a year or so, it won't be flying anymore. 

Here are the pics of some of the aircraft, do check out the JF-17 pic and if possible find a FC-1 prototype# 6 pic and see its antenna is changed compared to the earlier models and JF-17, it has a Chinese one. So even in JF-17 prototypes we were using Western communication equipment. 

An overhauled F-7P


*
The label below the picture says it all and mind you these mirages went for Bright Start Exercise in 2009, where there must be AWAC deployed and used as it was a multiple nation exercise and AWAC environment is must, making Mirages of PAF work under a data link environment.*



Another Mirage of PAF



The recently first prototype Mirage with IFR, see the antenna above.







So now check the JF-17 pic by yourself, but i do hope all of you remember well what antenna it has and if possible the new C-130 picture.

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## TaimiKhan

Here is JF-17's UHF/VHF Data chain antenna up close.


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## Sapper

taimikhan said:


> Here is JF-17's UHF/VHF Data chain antenna up close.



Can someone tell me what the logo on the antenna means ... if we can prove a remote connection between the logo and Link16, it will be proof enough.

Regards,
Sapper


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## TaimiKhan

Sapper said:


> Can someone tell me what the logo on the antenna means ... if we can prove a remote connection between the logo and Link16, it will be proof enough.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



Well i tried very hard but wasn't able to locate the manufacturer uptill now.

Plus JF-17 has 2 such antennas, one under the nose and another at the top of the spine, plus you can see 2 other small communication type antennas too, same one above and one below.

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## Sapper

taimikhan said:


> Well i tried very hard but wasn't able to locate the manufacturer uptill now.
> 
> Plus JF-17 has 2 such antennas, one under the nose and another at the top of the spine, plus you can see 2 other small communication type antennas too, same one above and one below.



I have also been unsuccessful in trying to find either the manufacturer or any another example of these types of antennas on any other fighter/drone/AWACS etc.

Regards,
Sapper


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## Patriot

The radar warning system is produced by the Chinese company CETC and has a database of 100 issuers expandable to 300. The normal communications equipment (HF / VHF / HF) being provided with Pakistan adding a data link system to receive information from the Saab 2000 AEW & C
-
Source: Pshamim (Retired PAF Pilot) and another air marshal (cant remember his name) but he mentioned on geo that it will contain Link-16 databus and will be able to communicate with western platforms (he was serving officer)


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## TaimiKhan

Patriot said:


> The radar warning system is produced by the Chinese company CETC and has a database of 100 issuers expandable to 300. The normal communications equipment (HF / VHF / HF) being provided with Pakistan adding a data link system to receive information from the Saab 2000 AEW & C
> -
> Source: Pshamim (Retired PAF Pilot) and another air marshal (cant remember his name) but he mentioned on geo that it will contain Link-16 databus and will be able to communicate with western platforms (he was serving officer)



Uptill now, the data does suggest that JF-17 will be able to communicate with Western platforms as the communication equipment is clearly western.

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## Lethalforce

will USA allow F-16's to be linked to a Chinese AWAC??


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## TaimiKhan

Lethalforce said:


> will USA allow F-16's to be linked to a Chinese AWAC??



Its not about USA, if the F-16s have a data link capability and if the Chinese AEW&C has a communication system which can communicate with western platform, then why not. Permission from USA is not required. 

Most probably the Chinese AEW&C may have a western communication equipment, just like what we had in JF-17.

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## Lethalforce

taimikhan said:


> Its not about USA, if the F-16s have a data link capability and if the Chinese AEW&C has a communication system which can communicate with western platform, then why not. Permission from USA is not required.
> 
> Most probably the Chinese AEW&C may have a western communication equipment, just like what we had in JF-17.



Chinese may learn things about the F-16's that USA may not want them to learn,especially since Taiwan also has F-16's ,USA would be even more sensitive about any data linking with a Chinese AWAC.


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## TaimiKhan

Lethalforce said:


> Chinese may learn things about the F-16's that USA may not want them to learn,especially since Taiwan also has F-16's ,USA would be even more sensitive about any data linking with a Chinese AWAC.



And Sir, may I ask what the Chinese may learn from F-16 through an AEW&C ??

We already have F-16s and Chinese have a good idea about the F-16s that we have, they must have checked it out years ago. Yeah if they have some advanced version that is something else. 

But i don't understand what Chinese will learn about F-16s from an AEW&C ??

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## Lethalforce

taimikhan said:


> And Sir, may I ask what the Chinese may learn from F-16 through an AEW&C ??
> 
> We already have F-16s and Chinese have a good idea about the F-16s that we have, they must have checked it out years ago. Yeah if they have some advanced version that is something else.
> 
> But i don't understand what Chinese will learn about F-16s from an AEW&C ??



Taimi it is doubtful that Chinese have will come close to the new and maybe even the older F-16'S, Pakistan and USA have specific terms to prevent Chinese anywhere near the F-16's the terms even for maintenance and repair are spelled out where only US crews will be working on them, to achieve datalinking between a plane and an AWAC some of the following are needed:

1)a quick secure communication system -if an F-16 is linked to an Chinese AWAC this would provide insight into the electronics or communication system of the F-16.

2) Joint Tactical Information Display System (JTIDS), the Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) radar, and the Navstar Global Position System space&#8208;based location system would also have to be linked to the plane would USA want all these systems incorporated to an F-16 especially the newer block you are getting?? Knowledge gained from this can possibly also be used in F-16's owned by other countries like Taiwan.

3)a crew of atleast 20 would be needed to link the plane to aircraft and ground station would USA want a Chinese crew in this linking process?

4)any data received from the AWAC would possibly reveal weakness and strengths in the F-16's capabiity and avionics , how it is able to manuever 9G turns,thrust to weight ratios and vertical acceleration all things which are more or less classified and only known to US government presently.

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## TaimiKhan

Lethalforce said:


> Taimi it is doubtful that Chinese have will come close to the new and maybe even the older F-16'S, Pakistan and USA have specific terms to prevent Chinese anywhere near the F-16's the terms even for maintenance and repair are spelled out where only US crews will be working on them, to achieve datalinking between a plane and an AWAC some of the following are needed:
> 
> 1)a quick secure communication system -if an F-16 is linked to an Chinese AWAC this would provide insight into the electronics or communication system of the F-16.
> 
> 2) Joint Tactical Information Display System (JTIDS), the Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) radar, and the Navstar Global Position System space&#8208;based location system would also have to be linked to the plane would USA want all these systems incorporated to an F-16 especially the newer block you are getting?? Knowledge gained from this can possibly also be used in F-16's owned by other countries like Taiwan.
> 
> 3)a crew of atleast 20 would be needed to link the plane to aircraft and ground station would USA want a Chinese crew in this linking process?
> 
> 4)any data received from the AWAC would possibly reveal weakness and strengths in the F-16's capabiity and avionics , how it is able to manuever 9G turns,thrust to weight ratios and vertical acceleration all things which are more or less classified and only known to US government presently.



well thx for your insight, but just to assure you, Chinese have checked the F-16s, not the internal avionics things, just the flying characteristics. Not a big deal. Well they may not be able to check up the new F-16s we are gonna get, as US will be doing inventory checking. And with current Chinese air power quality, don't think they would be needing such information to counter Taiwan's F-16s. They have now quiet good quality aircrafts, SAM network and land attack capability.

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## Lethalforce

Chinese may have a quantitative advantage over the Taiwanese but not qualitative, the qualitative advantage the Taiwanese have is what USA wants to preserve the less the Chinese know about the F-16's the better since many NATO nations and US allies have the plane and it may be used in an adverserial role against Chinese aggression, many nations that own the F-16 are in the South China sea region.


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## mean_bird

Lethalforce said:


> 3)a crew of atleast 20 would be needed to link the plane to aircraft and ground station would USA want a Chinese crew in this linking process?
> 
> 4)any data received from the AWAC would possibly reveal weakness and strengths in the F-16's capabiity and avionics , how it is able to manuever 9G turns,thrust to weight ratios and vertical acceleration all things which are more or less classified and only known to US government presently.



Please excuse for making a ridicule of this, but that's got to be amongst the funniest things I have heard in a long time. 

Communication revealing how you manuever 9g turns? what your TWR is? Look at it this way, we are talking to each other right now (me and you)-- do I know your weight and height? or your body mass? or how fast you can run?

Communication takes place through standard interfaces. That means, you define a standard of how to input data and what the output is and you transmit using that standard. No internal working has to be revealed in order to do that. The only exception is, if you do not even want to reveal your communication interface (fearing the other can spy on your communication or jam it, etc. Those are quite secured.).

But in no way will you reveal TWR, or how you do 9g turns. That's got to do with physical design of the plane. Btw, everyone knows the TWR of the F-16. Also, data is not something you have to physically carry that you need 20 people to do it.

Datalinking US BVR missiles using Chinese AWACS is something that looks impossible but delivering situational awareness, etc should be quite easy.

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## Lethalforce

Bird those are just some examples not specific examples of things that no other plane makers in the world have been able to copy about the F-16. Datalinking the F-16 would provide a great deal of knowledge of the F-16's communication system that the chinese did not previously have,setting up the Datalinkage would have Chinese involvement would US be ok with that?? 20 + crew is to maintain the AWAC communications system. The Chinese would obviously work with Pakistan in setting this up to link planes,ground station AWAC communications the Chinese would be involved in the whole process.This would be a first time a foreign AWAC gets linked to an f-16 if this happens, I don't know any other countries that own F-16's where this has happened ? With the SAAB eeryie there are no such issues but i am not sure about the Chinese AWAC.


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## notorious_eagle

Lethalforce said:


> Chinese may have a quantitative advantage over the Taiwanese but not qualitative, the qualitative advantage the Taiwanese have is what USA wants to preserve the less the Chinese know about the F-16's the better since many NATO nations and US allies have the plane and it may be used in an adverserial role against Chinese aggression, many nations that own the F-16 are in the South China sea region.



You are right quite wrong on this my friend, Gone are days when Taiwan had qualitative advantage over China. China has poured in billions of dollars to modernize its AirForce and the results can be seen quite clearly. Taiwan operates F16 Block 20's and Mirage 2000-5, PLAAF has neutralized both these planes with their addition of J11's and J10. With the way China is progressing aviation industry, i really dont see Taiwan's AirForce standing a chance against PLAAF. China successfully pressured the Americans to block the sale of Block 52's, if this sale would have gone through than Taiwan might had a shot. With the way China's economy and PLAAF are progressing, their is very little Taiwan can do if the Chinese decide to attack unless the Americans intervene.

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## Lethalforce

notorious_eagle said:


> You are right quite wrong on this my friend, Gone are days when Taiwan had qualitative advantage over China. China has poured in billions of dollars to modernize its AirForce and the results can be seen quite clearly. Taiwan operates F16 Block 20's and Mirage 2000-5, PLAAF has neutralized both these planes with their addition of J11's and J10. With the way China is progressing aviation industry, i really dont see Taiwan's AirForce standing a chance against PLAAF. China successfully pressured the Americans to block the sale of Block 52's, if this sale would have gone through than Taiwan might had a shot. With the way China's economy and PLAAF are progressing, their is very little Taiwan can do if the Chinese decide to attack unless the Americans intervene.



The Chinese are still inducting many of the planes and engines issues are still a problem ,when more are inducted possibly in the next 5-10 years this maybe true since China has many other planes also.

http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/?tag=turbofan-engine


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## mughaljee

Sapper said:


> *Dear, we are getting ZDK-03 which is loosely based on KJ200 and not KJ2000.
> Again, we are not getting KJ2000.*


Brother Explain above.


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## gambit

> Lethalforce said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4)*any data received from the AWAC would possibly reveal weakness and strengths in the F-16's capabiity and avionics* , how it is able to manuever 9G turns,thrust to weight ratios and vertical acceleration all things which are more or less classified and only known to US government presently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mean_bird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please excuse for making a ridicule of this, but that's got to be amongst the funniest things I have heard in a long time.
> 
> *Communication revealing how you manuever 9g turns? what your TWR is? Look at it this way, we are talking to each other right now (me and you)-- do I know your weight and height? or your body mass? or how fast you can run?*
> 
> Communication takes place through standard interfaces. That means, you define a standard of how to input data and what the output is and you transmit using that standard. No internal working has to be revealed in order to do that. The only exception is, if you do not even want to reveal your communication interface (fearing the other can spy on your communication or jam it, etc. Those are quite secured.).
> 
> But in no way will you reveal TWR, or how you do 9g turns. That's got to do with physical design of the plane. Btw, everyone knows the TWR of the F-16. Also, data is not something you have to physically carry that you need 20 people to do it.
> 
> Datalinking US BVR missiles using Chinese AWACS is something that looks impossible but delivering situational awareness, etc should be quite easy.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

The analogy fails because unlike the AWACS, you have no knowledge of the environment and is not watching the responses in real time. If know the layout of his house, down to the walls and furniture, and if you can observe him getting up to get a beer out of the fridge, you can infer much about his physical condition. Everyone is familiar with the environment -- air and sky. Radar provides the real time observation.


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## truepakistani17

r0ck said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> The Indian Phalcon AWACS will be compatible with every aircraft in the IAF inventory. Right? On the other hand PAF would be operating 2 different AWACS i.e. Saab 2000 and KJ-200, but these would serve as specialised AWACS platforms, one only for western aircraft and the other only for chinese.
> 
> Now are there any developments to make these two AEW&C systems universally compatible with the PAF inventory? Because operating a single AWACS platform at any time, is a lot more cost-efficient, streamlined and is less prone to training issues/errors than having two specialized aircrafts.



just answer mw one thing,,,, why is it so that when they do it we call it diversification and when we do it it is called derailing?????


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## truepakistani17

mughaljee said:


> Brothers,
> clear one thing, KJ-2000,
> are we getting this with TOT. ?



brother, one thing is clear,,
we are not getting kj2000,,,, 
it is the kj 200 that PAF s going for and is with ToT,,

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## Quwa

As difficult as it may be, Pakistan will have to develop its own data-link interface that is interoperable with Link-16 for use on JF-17, FC-20, ZDK03, etc.


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## MZUBAIR

r0ck said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> The Indian Phalcon AWACS will be compatible with every aircraft in the IAF inventory. Right? On the other hand PAF would be operating 2 different AWACS i.e. Saab 2000 and KJ-200, but these would serve as specialised AWACS platforms, one only for western aircraft and the other only for chinese.
> 
> Now are there any developments to make these two AEW&C systems universally compatible with the PAF inventory? Because operating a single AWACS platform at any time, is a lot more cost-efficient, streamlined and is less prone to training issues/errors than having two specialized aircrafts.



Chinees AEW&C can be linkied to JF-17, but they can also support Mirage and F-16 through wirless comunication.

There must be some thing that can support western techs in Chinees AWECS, similarly PAF getting 4 Saab so PAF would have any strategy to use them with western pr chinees AC


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## MZUBAIR

taimikhan said:


> You should better read something on the topic before coming on the forum and speak about things which you don't know.
> 
> Radars don't talk to each, aircrafts communicate via the datalink which sends the data in its own format after getting it from the aircraft avionics or radar or the controllers transmit the output of the radar to the pilots and control them.
> 
> Learn first how aircraft communicate with each other.
> 
> Radar gives the info and the info is transmitted to the other aircraft which is received by the receiving aircraft communication equipment and it then transforms the data received to the MFDs of the controller.
> 
> Same case with AWACS, they send the information through the communication equipment, received by the aircraft and displayed.
> 
> Its all about how the data is transmitted between the radar processors and the communication equipment in the aircraft, which is then send.
> 
> Same case like your computer, you have a DSL line which is basically sending electronic signals, you surf the net, you have no idea what communication is happening between the systems. Your modem/LAN card receives the signals via cable, but the computer processor processes the data, interprets it, sends it to the video card, which further sends the data to the monitor.
> 
> Hope so you got the point that how aircraft communication would work too, even if we have Chinese radar, but if it can be made to communicate with western datalink system, then we have no issue in whether we have a chinese awac or western awac or even aircraft.



Good informative post.......and well said


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## MZUBAIR

Lethalforce said:


> Chinese may have a quantitative advantage over the Taiwanese but not qualitative, the qualitative advantage the Taiwanese have is what USA wants to preserve the less the Chinese know about the F-16's the better since many NATO nations and US allies have the plane and it may be used in an adverserial role against Chinese aggression, many nations that own the F-16 are in the South China sea region.



How can u define qualitative technology.

Nodoubt coming J-10B anf JF-17 is qualitywise comparable to any 4.5th and 4th generaion AC.

Quality = *Reliablie + Efficient + Satisfaction.*
Chinese AC hav all the 3 quality attributes.


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## MZUBAIR

Lethalforce said:


> Bird those are just some examples not specific examples of things that no other plane makers in the world have been able to copy about the F-16. Datalinking the F-16 would provide a great deal of knowledge of the F-16's communication system that the chinese did not previously have,setting up the Datalinkage would have Chinese involvement would US be ok with that?? 20 + crew is to maintain the AWAC communications system. The Chinese would obviously work with Pakistan in setting this up to link planes,ground station AWAC communications the Chinese would be involved in the whole process.This would be a first time a foreign AWAC gets linked to an f-16 if this happens, I don't know any other countries that own F-16's where this has happened ? With the SAAB eeryie there are no such issues but i am not sure about the Chinese AWAC.



*R u Indian !!!!!!!!*

Even Americans use Chinees products and admire the quality, so wts up to u .........ur so much against to them.


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## wangrong

Lethalforce said:


> The Chinese are still inducting many of the planes and engines issues are still a problem ,when more are inducted possibly in the next 5-10 years this maybe true since China has many other planes also.
> 
> China Military Power Mashup|Tag Archive|Turbofan engine





notice the WS-15


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## Sapper

> Originally Posted by Sapper View Post
> Dear, we are getting ZDK-03 which is loosely based on KJ200 and not KJ2000.
> Again, we are not getting KJ2000.





mughaljee said:


> Brother Explain above.



1. Pakistan is getting ZDK-03.
2. Pakistan is not getting KJ2000.
3. Pakistan is not getting KJ200.
4. ZDK-03 may be similar to and can be compared to KJ200.
5. ZDK-03 is not similar or comparable to KJ2000.

e.g. PAF got F7PG from China, which are "based" on J7, but PAF did not get J7, they got F7PG, similar but not same.

Similarities between proposed ZDK-03 and KJ200.
1. Similar turboprop platform i.e. Y8 or quite possibly Y9.
2. Balanced beam AESA/PESA radar.
3. Smaller platform when compared to Indo-Israel's Phalcon, Chinese KJ2000 and American E3 Sentry, but comparable to Saab2000.

Dis-similarities between proposed ZDK-03 and KJ2000.
1. Different platforms, IL78 vs Y8/Y9
2. Different size class, Very Big vs Big.
3. Crew size, 40 vs 20.

Thus the proposed ZDK-03 is loosely based on KJ200. But not at all similar or comparable to KJ2000, even if features a radome (which is still not clear).

Hope i have explained my points. Forgive me if my previous post was confusing.

Regards,
Sapper

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## mughaljee

Sapper said:


> 1. Pakistan is getting ZDK-03.
> 2. Pakistan is not getting KJ2000.
> 3. Pakistan is not getting KJ200.
> 4. ZDK-03 may be similar to and can be compared to KJ200.
> 5. ZDK-03 is not similar or comparable to KJ2000.
> 
> e.g. PAF got F7PG from China, which are "based" on J7, but PAF did not get J7, they got F7PG, similar but not same.
> 
> Similarities between proposed ZDK-03 and KJ200.
> 1. Similar turboprop platform i.e. Y8 or quite possibly Y9.
> 2. Balanced beam AESA/PESA radar.
> 3. Smaller platform when compared to Indo-Israel's Phalcon, Chinese KJ2000 and American E3 Sentry, but comparable to Saab2000.
> 
> Dis-similarities between proposed ZDK-03 and KJ2000.
> 1. Different platforms, IL78 vs Y8/Y9
> 2. Different size class, Very Big vs Big.
> 3. Crew size, 40 vs 20.
> 
> Thus the proposed ZDK-03 is loosely based on KJ200. But not at all similar or comparable to KJ2000, even if features a radome (which is still not clear).
> 
> Hope i have explained my points. Forgive me if my previous post was confusing.
> Regards,
> Sapper


Yes you explained very well. U R My Hero.

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## SBD-3

MZUBAIR said:


> How can u define qualitative technology.
> 
> Nodoubt coming J-10B anf JF-17 is qualitywise comparable to any 4.5th and 4th generaion AC.
> 
> Quality = *Reliablie + Efficient + Satisfaction.*
> Chinese AC hav all the 3 quality attributes.



he means FC-K 1 ching ku'z and F-16 C/Ds with sky sword missiles (oooooooooo I'm scared, Please dont hurt me!!!!!!)


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## owais.usmani

*The Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C, developed for the Pakistan Air Force, on display at the 2008 Farnborough Airshow.*


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## hassan1

PAF FUTURE BIRD 
A PAINTING 
http://img692.imageshack.us/i/zdk03.jpg/

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## air marshal



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## notorious_eagle

Dawn News report on Pakistan's acquisitions of the Erieye






Can senior members please weigh in on this because i found the report to not be credible.

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## dbc

notorious_eagle said:


> Dawn News report on Pakistan's acquisitions of the Erieye
> 
> AzzcjfwXGZA[/media] - News Package - AWACS
> 
> Can senior members please weigh in on this because i found the report to not be credible.



Rubbish, was it amateur hour on YAWN news?  I don't care how big and expensive the Phalcon is it CANNOT jam the Erieye. The Erieye has two notable short comings vis-&#224;-vis the Phalcon:

1.	360 deg coverage.
2.	Ground detection range is limited to 100 km.

While 1 can be overcome by operating two Erieye&#8217;s in tandem, 2 is a real concern and PAF will have to acquire several more Erieye&#8217;s in case one is lost in battle.

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## truepakistani17

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Rubbish, was it amateur hour on YAWN news?  I don't care how big and expensive the Phalcon is it CANNOT jam the Erieye. The Erieye has two notable short comings vis-à-vis the Phalcon:
> 
> 1.	360 deg coverage.
> 2.	Ground detection range is limited to 100 km.
> 
> While 1 can be overcome by operation two Erieyes in tandem, 2 is a real concern and PAF will have to acquire several more Erieyes in case one is lost in battle.



well pakistan is really concerned about the chiness system, hopefully they will take care of this issue...
what are the chances


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## mean_bird

hahaha..these are airborne early warning systems not fighter jets that the journalist is comparing one-on-one. They will probably never come within 200-300km of each other let alone jamming the other's system. And if that were the case, then Ericsson and Erieye would soon be out of business. And no AWACS system is let alone to defend for itself as it has no weapons or ability to deal with fighter jets. 

Maybe the reporter has been reading BR before reporting.

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## owais.usmani

some cool pics of PAF Erieye while it was undergoing testing:


*at Basle,Switzerland:*



















*at Instituto Nacional de Técnica Aeroespacial( INTA) facility in Spain for flight certification:*

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## mshoaib61

ERIEYE has a fixed, dual-sided and electronically scanned antenna mounted on top of the fuselage. This places much less demand on aircraft size and is designed for mounting on commuter-type aircraft. The ERIEYE is capable of 360° detection and tracking of air and sea targets over the horizon. The instrumented range is 450km and a typical detection range against a fighter aircraft size target is in excess of 350km.

The system uses advanced solid-state electronics, open-system architecture and ruggedized commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) hardware, including general-purpose programmable workstations and full-colour LCD displays. The ERIEYE radar is already in service with the Swedish Air Force and is in series production for Brazil and other customers. 











Photo from saab 2000 erieye

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## ice_man

THIS IS A NEWS I FOUND FOR ALL MY BROTHERS WHO ARE UNSURE OF THE EREIYE SYSTEM CAPABILITIES. the UAE is buying the EREIYE system....unlike us they have the money to go for HAWKEYE or any other AWACS system yet they are choosing the EREIYE!!! 

*all i say is BELIEVE IN THE EREIYE*

Saab Signs Contract with United Arab Emirates for Airborne Surveillance System


(Source: Saab AB; issued Nov. 17, 2009)



Defence and security company Saab has signed a contract for the sale of an airborne surveillance system to the United Arab Emirates (UAE). The contract is worth approximately 1.5 billion SEK.

The contract covers two Saab 340 AEW (Airborne Early Warning) systems, comprising of the Saab 340 aircraft equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system. The contract also includes ground equipment as well as logistics and support services. Together with associated ground equipment, the system will provide a detailed situational picture that can be used in conjunction with, for example, border control and rescue operations.

"We've been conducting discussions with the UAE for several years concerning an airborne surveillance system," says Saab's CEO &#197;ke Svensson. "This contract is an additional proof of our expertise and international competitiveness within the field of network-based solutions for defence and civil security."

Saab's Erieye surveillance system is a market success. The first Erieye surveillance system was delivered to the Swedish Air Force on a Saab 340 aircraft platform. The system has also been sold to Thailand with the Saab 340 as a platform, and this time the United Arab Emirates. The radar system has also been installed on the Embraer-145 aircraft and is operational in Brazil, Mexico and Greece.

The system will soon be delivered to Pakistan on Saab 2000 aircraft.


Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defence to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers&#8217; changing needs.


Saab Signs Contract with United Arab Emirates for Airborne Surveillance System

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## 592257001

Just a KJ-2000 and KJ-200 picture for every one to enjoy!

I think the Pakistan Air force should buy the KJ-200 instead of the much bigger, complicated and offcourse more expensive KJ-2000. There are two reasons:
1. Pakistan's air space is not THAT big, compare to China and India, meaning a huge AWAC would be a overkill.
2. KJ-2000 is developed from the Russian Ilyushin Il-76 airframe, and Russians might put export restrictions on China if India really pressures them. Kj-200 is based on Chinese's own airfram, so Pakistan doesn't need to worry about sanctions.

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## wangrong



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## nightrider_saulat

can anyone tell the prices of each single unit of KJ-200 SAAB 2000 erieye


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## owais.usmani

Check out the following images from the above video, *taken at a PAF base in* *Pakistan*

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## owais.usmani



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## owais.usmani

*Some cool pictures of SAAB 2000 Erieye along with SAAB 340 Erieye:*

View attachment 57e645dba8f1e0f6ed8365dfb1d33524.jpg


View attachment 7538133465e23d1b472388e4b59e2a73.jpg


View attachment a5c220c5582a693c1de10575206e050a.jpg


View attachment 0eaad6bc513b40b916f429f743c4dce3.jpg


View attachment a2f69e21d9b1ce8ccc9a6ac75da5b614.jpg

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## mshoaib61




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## jalip

Saab-2000 plane incorporated in PAF fleet


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## ejaz007

*Saab-2000 plane incorporated in PAF fleet *
Updated at: 1259 PST, Tuesday, December 29, 2009


RAWALPINDI: Saab-2000 Awacs aircraft meant for aerial surveillance has been incorporated in the Pakistan Air Force fleet, Geo News reported Tuesday.

A ceremony in this connection was held PAF Kamra attended by Chief of Air Staff Rao Qamar Suleman as chief guest.

Addressing on the occasion, the PAF chief said Saab-2000 will enhance PAF capacity to combat the threats facing the country.

With this acquisition from Sweden, Pakistan on Tuesday became the second country in the region after India to have inducted the sophisticated surveillance aircraft in its air force.

The aircraft is fitted with the latest technology to detect aircraft flying at high and medium altitudes. With state-of-the-art system, it is also capable of detecting objects flying at lower levels over land and sea at extended ranges. The system is also capable of detecting surface targets over sea.

The Erieye system provides 300 degree coverage and has an effective detection range of only 300 km to 350 km. It uses a pulse Doppler radar with a fixed, wedge-shaped antenna.

By virtue of these features, Pakistan Air Force would be able to boost its operational capability manifold by achieving requisite early warning for efficient and meaningful air defence of its airspace, an official statement said.

As compared to Pakistans AWAC system, the Indian Phalcon system provides tactical surveillance of airborne and surface targets and helps gather signal intelligence. It is also capable of tracking fighter planes, missiles and ground forces from a distance of 400 kilometres and in all weather conditions.

Qamar said four-aircraft deal for Saab-2000 worth $866 million have been signed.

The PAF Chief said the PAF will receive 18 F-16 aircrafts next year. 

Saab-2000 plane incorporated in PAF fleet - GEO.tv

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## Patriot

Slap on the faces of Indians.There were many indians here who once said deal is cancelled or Sweden won't sell to Pakistan.

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## ice_man

Patriot said:


> Slap on the faces of Indians.There were many indians here who once said deal is cancelled or Sweden won't sell to Pakistan.



my friend before you go around slapping people just wait india might opt for the GRIPPEN for its MRCA program and if that happens then rest assure that the swedes will take off their pants and show them all they have to show for the SAAB 2000 limitations & capabilites!


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## jalip

ice_man said:


> my friend before you go around slapping people just wait india might opt for the GRIPPEN for its MRCA program and if that happens then rest assure that the swedes will take off their pants and show them all they have to show for the SAAB 2000 limitations & capabilities:!



will india go for grippens i doubt it they are looking for more advance and power full jets people compare grippens with LCA and JF 17
with this logic we should not go for any western planes what about f 16 they gona find every thing if they bought US gets 
they already know the capability of JF 17 engine 
one more thing chinese technology is based upon russian and russian are big supplier to india and china by the above logic they should both stop purchasing any thing from russia


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## jawadqamar

Detailed report

*Pakistan has now an eye in the sky (Saab-2000 ERIEYE AWE&C ) *

With the delivery of Sweden&#8217;s SAAB AWE&C aircraft Pakistan has gained the capability of having an eye in the sky and advance monitoring system. A formal ceremony on Tuesday will be held to be attended by PAF Chief Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman. 

*Early this month PAF received first of its four Saab 2000 Airborne Early Warning & Control aircraft from Sweden.* According to an official media release the aircraft landed at one of the PAF&#8217;s Main Operating Bases, marking achievement of a major milestone in the overall modernization plan of PAF.

With the induction of Swedish AEW&C system, PAF has become one of the few air forces in the world to have Airborne Early Warning capability. Saab 2000 Airborne Early Warning & Control aircraft PAF has boosted its operational capability manifold by achieving requisite early warning for efficient & meaningful Air Defence of its airspace.

According to defence experts *Saab 2000 AEW&C is an affordable Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft *and key element is the Erieye active phased array side looking surveillance radar which features a detection range of up to 300 km for fighter-sized airborne targets and maritime surveillance mode. 

The government of Pakistan and Saab first announced the successful completion of negotiations on June 22, 2006, with the resulting contract, worth approximately SEK 6.9 billion, entering into effect in the second quarter of 2006. 

Defence experts say that the ERIEYE AEW&C is the world&#8217;s only operational airborne Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar in service today. *The Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C utilises the latest generation ERIEYE radar*, now capable of detecting small air targets, hovering helicopters, cruise missiles and small sea targets such as inflatable rubber boats, for a more complete surveillance picture. 

ERIEYE is the first high-performance, long-range Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) system based on active phased-array pulse-Doppler radar. 

This new-generation system can be installed in a variety of commercial and military aircraft, including regional jet or turboprop airliners. *It meets full AEW&C requirements for detecting and tracking targets at ranges of up to 450 km over land or water*. ERIEYE is part of a complete AEW&C system, including radar with integrated Secondary Surveillance Radar / Identification Friend or Foe (SSR/IFF), electronic support measures, communications and data links, comprehensive command-and-control facilities and self-protection system. 

The ERIEYE radar, with its fixed electronically scanned antenna and use of adaptive radar control techniques, has superior resolution accuracy. When compared to traditional rotodome-based solutions, it provides enhanced detection and tracking performance, including the active simultaneous tracking of multiple targets. In addition, the radar offers significantly improved resistance to Electronic Counter Measures (ECM). 

The state-of-the-art command-and-control system gives the on-board mission-system crew full capability for AEW&C roles as well as maximum flexibility for other peacetime and war missions. ERIEYE is fully interoperable with and easily integrated into NATO Air Defence Command Systems.

The Saab 2000 AEW&C airborne early warning and control aircraft is a variant of the Saab 2000 regional transport turboprop aircraft equipped with the spine-mounted Saab Systems Erieye PS-890 side-looking reconnaissance radar.

The first customer for the Saab 2000 AEW&C, the Pakistan Fiza&#8217;ya (the Pakistan Air Force), placed the order on Saab, based in Stockholm, in June 2006. The first of five aircraft was rolled out in April 2008 and is scheduled to enter service in 2009. Thailand announced the selection of the Saab 2000 AEW&C in June 2007.

The aircraft, fully equipped for airborne early warning and control, can also be used for national security missions, border control, airborne command and control, disaster management coordination and for emergency air traffic control.&#8220;The Saab 2000 airborne early warning and control aircraft is a variant of the Saab 2000 regional transport turboprop aircraft.&#8221; 

The Erieye radar has an instrumental range of 450 km and detection range of 350 km against a fighter aircraft sized target in dense hostile electronic warfare environments and at low target altitudes. *The system is capable of tracking multiple air and sea target over the horizon and provides above 20 km altitude coverage, 360&#176; coverage and has sea surveillance capability.*

The radar incorporates an identification friend or foe interrogator. The system comprises an active phased array pulse Doppler radar with a secondary surveillance radar.The fixed dual sided electronically scanned antenna array is installed in a rectangular housing, dorsally mounted above the fuselage.

The aircraft&#8217;s electronic warfare suite is based on the Saab Avitronics HES-21 electronic support measures (ESM) and self-protection suite. The HES-21 also provides a ground-based support system (EGSS), which provides mission data for the aircraft electronic warfare system and for analysis of recorded data. 

PakObserver

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## SSGPA1

_Pakistan will get three more such systems and the second one will be made available in 2011, said Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman at the ceremony. 

He said PAF would get eighteen more F-16 fighter jets by mid-2010 among other weapons. 

Suleman said the first squad of JF-17 thunder aircraft, jointly manufactured by Pakistan and China, will be deployed by June next year. 

With the introduction of this state of the art system, PAF has become one of the most modern Air Forces, he said. _

Pakistan Air Force gets first early warning aircraft_English_Xinhua

Add FC-20/J-10 to this mix and PAF will become far more effective.


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## hataf

jawadqamar said:


> Detailed report
> 
> *Pakistan has now an eye in the sky (Saab-2000 ERIEYE AWE&C ) *
> 
> With the delivery of Swedens SAAB AWE&C aircraft Pakistan has gained the capability of having an eye in the sky and advance monitoring system. A formal ceremony on Tuesday will be held to be attended by PAF Chief Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman.
> 
> *Early this month PAF received first of its four Saab 2000 Airborne Early Warning & Control aircraft from Sweden.* According to an official media release the aircraft landed at one of the PAFs Main Operating Bases, marking achievement of a major milestone in the overall modernization plan of PAF.
> 
> With the induction of Swedish AEW&C system, PAF has become one of the few air forces in the world to have Airborne Early Warning capability. Saab 2000 Airborne Early Warning & Control aircraft PAF has boosted its operational capability manifold by achieving requisite early warning for efficient & meaningful Air Defence of its airspace.
> 
> According to defence experts *Saab 2000 AEW&C is an affordable Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft *and key element is the Erieye active phased array side looking surveillance radar which features a detection range of up to 300 km for fighter-sized airborne targets and maritime surveillance mode.
> 
> The government of Pakistan and Saab first announced the successful completion of negotiations on June 22, 2006, with the resulting contract, worth approximately SEK 6.9 billion, entering into effect in the second quarter of 2006.
> 
> Defence experts say that the ERIEYE AEW&C is the worlds only operational airborne Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar in service today. *The Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C utilises the latest generation ERIEYE radar*, now capable of detecting small air targets, hovering helicopters, cruise missiles and small sea targets such as inflatable rubber boats, for a more complete surveillance picture.
> 
> ERIEYE is the first high-performance, long-range Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) system based on active phased-array pulse-Doppler radar.
> 
> This new-generation system can be installed in a variety of commercial and military aircraft, including regional jet or turboprop airliners. *It meets full AEW&C requirements for detecting and tracking targets at ranges of up to 450 km over land or water*. ERIEYE is part of a complete AEW&C system, including radar with integrated Secondary Surveillance Radar / Identification Friend or Foe (SSR/IFF), electronic support measures, communications and data links, comprehensive command-and-control facilities and self-protection system.
> 
> The ERIEYE radar, with its fixed electronically scanned antenna and use of adaptive radar control techniques, has superior resolution accuracy. When compared to traditional rotodome-based solutions, it provides enhanced detection and tracking performance, including the active simultaneous tracking of multiple targets. In addition, the radar offers significantly improved resistance to Electronic Counter Measures (ECM).
> 
> The state-of-the-art command-and-control system gives the on-board mission-system crew full capability for AEW&C roles as well as maximum flexibility for other peacetime and war missions. ERIEYE is fully interoperable with and easily integrated into NATO Air Defence Command Systems.
> 
> The Saab 2000 AEW&C airborne early warning and control aircraft is a variant of the Saab 2000 regional transport turboprop aircraft equipped with the spine-mounted Saab Systems Erieye PS-890 side-looking reconnaissance radar.
> 
> The first customer for the Saab 2000 AEW&C, the Pakistan Fizaya (the Pakistan Air Force), placed the order on Saab, based in Stockholm, in June 2006. The first of five aircraft was rolled out in April 2008 and is scheduled to enter service in 2009. Thailand announced the selection of the Saab 2000 AEW&C in June 2007.
> 
> The aircraft, fully equipped for airborne early warning and control, can also be used for national security missions, border control, airborne command and control, disaster management coordination and for emergency air traffic control.The Saab 2000 airborne early warning and control aircraft is a variant of the Saab 2000 regional transport turboprop aircraft.
> 
> The Erieye radar has an instrumental range of 450 km and detection range of 350 km against a fighter aircraft sized target in dense hostile electronic warfare environments and at low target altitudes. *The system is capable of tracking multiple air and sea target over the horizon and provides above 20 km altitude coverage, 360° coverage and has sea surveillance capability.*
> 
> The radar incorporates an identification friend or foe interrogator. The system comprises an active phased array pulse Doppler radar with a secondary surveillance radar.The fixed dual sided electronically scanned antenna array is installed in a rectangular housing, dorsally mounted above the fuselage.
> 
> The aircrafts electronic warfare suite is based on the Saab Avitronics HES-21 electronic support measures (ESM) and self-protection suite. The HES-21 also provides a ground-based support system (EGSS), which provides mission data for the aircraft electronic warfare system and for analysis of recorded data.
> 
> PakObserver



i think it has 300° field of view with 150° a side


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## Patriot

ice_man said:


> my friend before you go around slapping people just wait india might opt for the GRIPPEN for its MRCA program and if that happens then rest assure that the swedes will take off their pants and show them all they have to show for the SAAB 2000 limitations & capabilites!



Yaar why you people are so much paranoid.International Business does not work like this.By your theory we should just not buy any weapons at all as iNdians can buy weapons in bigger numbers.


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## jawadqamar

hataf said:


> i think it has 300&#176; field of view with 150&#176; a side





> *Saab 2000 AEW&C Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft, Sweden*
> 
> *Radar*
> Saab Microwave Systems (formerly Ericsson) is the lead contractor for the Erieye surveillance radar. The Erieye radar is operational on a number of other aircraft including the Saab 340, Embraer R-99 and Embraer EMB-145. Erieye is an active phased array pulse Doppler radar operating in the 3.1GHz to 3.3GHz band. The radar is operational from three minutes after take-off and during climb and provides an effective surveillance area of 500,000km&#178;.
> 
> "The main cabin is fitted with five mission operator consoles on the starboard side."The Erieye radar has an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350km against a fighter aircraft sized target in dense hostile electronic warfare environments and at low target altitudes.* The system is capable of tracking multiple air and sea target over the horizon and provides above 20km altitude coverage, 360&#176; coverage and has sea surveillance capability. *The radar incorporates an identification friend or foe interrogator. The system comprises an active phased array pulse Doppler radar with a secondary surveillance radar.




This part of news is straight from *Airforce-Technology.com *so please if you have better source specifically mention PAF version of Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C not having 360 deg coverage (plz no local news items and news items related to EMB-145 or Saab-200)I will like to agree with you


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## hataf

jawadqamar said:


> This part of news is straight from *Airforce-Technology.com *so please if you have better source specifically mention PAF version of Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C not having 360 deg coverage (plz no local news items and news items related to EMB-145 or Saab-200)I will like to agree with you



Saab-2000 plane incorporated in PAF fleet
http://www.geo.tv/12-29-2009/55769.htm
here is the link 
and for information and if u look at picture carefully the front and the back have holes for vents to cool down radar and those parts are blind area
here is a video explaining

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## jawadqamar

hataf said:


> Saab-2000 plane incorporated in PAF fleet
> here is the link
> and for information and if u look at picture carefully the front and the back have holes for vents to cool down radar and those parts are blind area
> here is a video explaining
> MDv2ABV6KHg[/media] - Embraer EMB145 ERIEYE vs BOEING 737 AEW&C AWACs



*My friend,As I said before plz no local news items and news items related to EMB-145 or Saab-200*


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## hataf

jawadqamar said:


> *My friend,As I said before plz no local news items and news items related to EMB-145 or Saab-200*



two more links
Sweden Finalizes AEW&C Contract With Pakistan
&#8220;The Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar uses an active array with 200 solid state modules. The range of the S-band, 3 GHz, and side looking radar is 300 km. The 1,985-lb (900-kg) dorsal antenna is housed in a 29-ft 6.3-in (9-m) long box radome mounted atop the fuselage.* Utilizing adaptive side lobe suppression, the look angle on each side is about 160 degrees.* From its standard operational altitude of 6000 metres (19,685 feet, or FL200) the radar has a maximum range of 450 km (279 miles). Against a fighter-sized target effective range is approximately 330 km (205 miles). Seaborne targets can be detected at 320 km (198 miles), though this is a function of the aircraft&#8217;s cruising height. The electronically scanned antenna can scan sectors of interest frequently while others are monitored, and a single sector can be scanned in different modes at the same time
Erieye radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.spyflight.co.uk/saab%20argus.htm


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## TaimiKhan

Well it won't be not much hard to place a radar in the nose of the Saab-2000 thus making it see in the forward section also, and if you look at the nose of the Saab-2000 nose, it seems different, suggesting that it may also be housing an AESA radar, so the top linear one will look on the sideways, the one if housed in the nose will look forward in areas where the side ones can't and why can't a radar be placed in the back, thus giving it a 360 degree coverage. 

I do hope experts may clear it up, but i believe it is possible as they can separately do the job and then sent the information to the console screens where each person can monitor his area of responsibility.


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## Patriot

The Saab official website mentions 360..the 300 coverage was in older Eriye AWACS which were smaller not in this model.You can have multiple arrays within that beam to provide 360 coverage.


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## hataf

Patriot said:


> The Saab official website mentions 360..the 300 coverage was in older Eriye AWACS which were smaller not in this model.You can have multiple arrays within that beam to provide 360 coverage.



can u provide the link


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## Arsalan

well the 300 or 360 degree coverage controversy have been debated on in detail in previous pages, it will be helpfull if you can browse through them. some members have also gives the working mechanism and discussion have been carried out keping in mind that technical knowledge about the system which a common civilian like many of us lacks in.. 
well riend this is why i will advice you to take out some time and go through those post, it will surely help you.

regards!


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## rizhussain44

SSGPA1 said:


> _Pakistan will get three more such systems and the *second one will be made available in 2011*, said Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman at the ceremony.
> 
> He said PAF would get eighteen more F-16 fighter jets by mid-2010 among other weapons.
> 
> Suleman said the first squad of JF-17 thunder aircraft, jointly manufactured by Pakistan and China, will be deployed by June next year.
> 
> With the introduction of this state of the art system, PAF has become one of the most modern Air Forces, he said. _
> 
> Pakistan Air Force gets first early warning aircraft_English_Xinhua
> 
> Add FC-20/J-10 to this mix and PAF will become far more effective.



Isn't this too long? Will there be no deliveries in 2010? and only one more system by 2011?


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## blain2

jawadqamar said:


> This part of news is straight from *Airforce-Technology.com *so please if you have better source specifically mention PAF version of Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C not having 360 deg coverage (plz no local news items and news items related to EMB-145 or Saab-200)I will like to agree with you



It matters little whether we have 360 deg coverage or not. You have to think about various things about the employment which can make 360 degree coverage redundant. 

A couple of things about the Erieye that should be noted include:

i) Although the aircraft's dorsally mounted AESA radar does not provide 360 degree coverage, the aircraft makes up for the 60 degree blind spots (aft and fore - 30 degrees each) by using its ESM capabilities to defend itself and disrupt the AI radars of the adversary if the threat is emanating from either the aft or fore side.

ii) In most cases, a 360 degree coverage is a limited use luxury because usually the AEW capability is directionally focused, meaning that you are catering for a threat emerging from a certain set of vectors/direction(s). Think about 150 degree coverage being provided by the Erieye on the eastern front and think about what the 150 degree coverage translates into in terms of miles and you will come to the realization that even with a 150 degree over the horizon coverage, Erieye provides a very significant early warning to our air defences.

Where the 360 coverage is helpful is if and when the AEW capability is being used in disaster recovery work where due to the lack of ground facilities, an AEW platform is being used to control air traffic from all directions. However even in such cases, the Erieye AEW platform(s) can be deployed in patterns where providing such coverage is not a huge challenge.

iii) In combat situations, the AEW platform may be called upon to work in extremely dense, multi-vector situations where aircraft from various bases and locations are converging or are being vectored to and from multiple locations. In this case, full 360 degree coverage would be helpful. A very good example of this has been the use of AEW platforms in the two gulf wars where USAF and NATO E-3s were employed in this role extensively and had to monitor air traffic which at times had close to above a thousand nodes in the air at the same time from all around Iraq's neighbouring countries.

Fortunately for the PAF, the threat is primarily uni-directional and while the breadth of the air space to be monitored can be large, the threat pretty much arises from one direction (in this case from the East) and will not require very dense controlling and tracking as the number of aircraft in any Indo-Pak scenario would be limited (certainly less than 200-300 or less in the air at a time). As such having a full 360 degree coverage, aside from bragging rights, does not make or break the deal for the PAF. Had this been a major concern for the PAF, they would have gone for the Hawkeye 2000 on offer by the US with its full 360 degree coverage.

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## jawadqamar

hataf said:


> two more links
> Sweden Finalizes AEW&C Contract With Pakistan
> &#8220;The Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar uses an active array with 200 solid state modules. The range of the S-band, 3 GHz, and side looking radar is 300 km. The 1,985-lb (900-kg) dorsal antenna is housed in a 29-ft 6.3-in (9-m) long box radome mounted atop the fuselage.* Utilizing adaptive side lobe suppression, the look angle on each side is about 160 degrees.* From its standard operational altitude of 6000 metres (19,685 feet, or FL200) the radar has a maximum range of 450 km (279 miles). Against a fighter-sized target effective range is approximately 330 km (205 miles). Seaborne targets can be detected at 320 km (198 miles), though this is a function of the aircraft&#8217;s cruising height. The electronically scanned antenna can scan sectors of interest frequently while others are monitored, and a single sector can be scanned in different modes at the same time
> Erieye radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> SAAB S100B AEW&C Argus



First link is close to the reality

S-100 had a coverage area of around 120deg i.e. total coverage 240 deg coverage

EMB-145 had it increased to 150 deg i.e. total coverage of 300deg

Saab-2000 had it increased to 160deg i.e. total coverage of 320 deg

Any radar coverage beyond 320 deg (20 deg at front and 20 deg at back) have degraded capability to detect the aircrafts

As per* Jane's Avionics *( again information is about the older versions of Erieye AEW&C)

It is understood that *Erieye has some ability to detect aircraft in the 30&#176; sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, but has no track capability in this sector.*


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## hataf

jawadqamar said:


> First link is close to the reality
> 
> S-100 had a coverage area of around 120deg i.e. total coverage 240 deg coverage
> 
> EMB-145 had it increased to 150 deg i.e. total coverage of 300deg
> 
> Saab-2000 had it increased to 160deg i.e. total coverage of 320 deg
> 
> Any radar coverage beyond 320 deg (20 deg at front and 20 deg at back) have degraded capability to detect the aircrafts
> 
> As per* Jane's Avionics *( again information is about the older versions of Erieye AEW&C)
> 
> It is understood that *Erieye has some ability to detect aircraft in the 30° sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, but has no track capability in this sector.*



it has radar signal detection sensor at wing tip and at nose and rear so if the aircraft is in blind area but its radar is on it can detect
all in all it has 360 deg detection but only 300 or 320 deg tracking capability


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## owais.usmani

taimikhan said:


> *Well it won't be not much hard to place a radar in the nose of the Saab-2000 thus making it see in the forward section also, and if you look at the nose of the Saab-2000 nose, it seems different, suggesting that it may also be housing an AESA radar, so the top linear one will look on the sideways, the one if housed in the nose will look forward in areas where the side ones can't and why can't a radar be placed in the back, thus giving it a 360 degree coverage. *
> 
> I do hope experts may clear it up, but i believe it is possible as they can separately do the job and then sent the information to the console screens where each person can monitor his area of responsibility.







No its not an AESA, just a RockwellCollins WXR-840, a humble weather radar, but it pretty closely resembles the concept you are trying to explain.


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## TaimiKhan

owais.usmani said:


> No its not an AESA, just a RockwellCollins WXR-840, a humble weather radar, but it pretty closely resembles the concept you are trying to explain.



But atleast its a doable idea

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## TangoViking

Why even this obsession with the front/rear angle of the erieye radar? The ESM still detects and tracks anything that emits signals 360deg around the aircraft. Such as jeeps and drones using a comradio or a enemy aircraft or ship using his radar. 

In fact the SIGINT/ESM kit should not be easily overlooked considering the geographical conditions over there. The HES-21 ESM/RWR functions 360d without (or with) the Erieye. The PAF can fly totally passive SIGINT missions if they choose to. 

It's also nice to have a weather radar...

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## niaz

Debate in this thread reminds me of the Middle Ages theological debate about how many thousand angels can stand on the point of a needle.

Primarily function of an AWAC aircraft is to provide early detection, so that you get more time to take defensive counter measures; additionally you are able to have Radar coverage even if all the ground based Radars are destroyed as happened to Iraqis during the Gulf war.

Let us also not forget that Pakistan has dearth of foreign exchange therefore PAF cannot indulge in one upmanship with India as IAF has the habit of doing. PAF system may not be the best or as good as Israeli Phalcon being acquired by India, so what? Would it really matter a lot in the fog of War? AWACS are not fighters that they should be compared on one to one basis.

Million dollar question remains whether 4 SAAB 2000 Eireye AEW&C aircrafts are good enough and sufficient in number to provide Pakistan with a credible early warning and control system in the event of war? For the time being, PAF thinks so.

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## ANG

I am curious as to why Pakistan chose the SAAB 2000 over the Embraer 145. I know the PAF mentioned that they were not happy with the Embraer 145 in hot and high conditions. However, Brazil and Mexico have these types of weather condition and bought the ERIEYE on the Embraer 145 platform. Also India has (is?) purchased the Embraer 145 jet for its home grown AWACS. Also the SAAB 2000 does not have inflight refueling that can limit its loiter capability.

Have a happy new year!


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## dbc

TangoViking said:


> Why even this obsession with the front/rear angle of the erieye radar? The ESM still detects and tracks anything that emits signals 360deg around the aircraft. Such as jeeps and drones using a comradio or a enemy aircraft or ship using his radar.
> 
> In fact the SIGINT/ESM kit should not be easily overlooked considering the geographical conditions over there. The HES-21 ESM/RWR functions 360d without (or with) the Erieye. The PAF can fly totally passive SIGINT missions if they choose to.
> 
> It's also nice to have a weather radar...



Are you serious? If I had an asset worth a quarter of a billion $'s up in the skies I'd want to know about every little thing heading my way.
RWR is good when the Erieye is illuminated by a hostile, but if that were to ever happen then the Erieye is already in great peril.
Let's face it, and please don't try to sugar coat it with ESM/RWR and SIGINT the lack of 360&#176; coverage is a weakness of the Erieye system &#8211; a weakness that could prove fatal for the Erieye in the India / Pakistan scenario.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

ANG said:


> I am curious as to why Pakistan chose the SAAB 2000 over the Embraer 145. I know the PAF mentioned that they were not happy with the Embraer 145 in hot and high conditions. However, Brazil and Mexico have these types of weather condition and bought the ERIEYE on the Embraer 145 platform. Also India has (is?) purchased the Embraer 145 jet for its home grown AWACS. Also the SAAB 2000 does not have inflight refueling that can limit its loiter capability.
> 
> Have a happy new year!




Sweden has better sofware engineers and radar , Brazil produces soccer players thats why


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## PakSher

In case of a future India-Pak war, Indian fighter squadorns will be destroyed on the ground in preemptive strikes by the PAF, so we may not even heavily depend on the AEW Saab System.


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## amarnath

PakSher said:


> In case of a future India-Pak war, Indian fighter squadorns will be destroyed on the ground in preemptive strikes by the PAF, so we may not even heavily depend on the AEW Saab System.



hahahahaha...... Oh yeah yeah......


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## Quwa

ANG said:


> I am curious as to why Pakistan chose the SAAB 2000 over the Embraer 145. I know the PAF mentioned that they were not happy with the Embraer 145 in hot and high conditions. However, Brazil and Mexico have these types of weather condition and bought the ERIEYE on the Embraer 145 platform. Also India has (is?) purchased the Embraer 145 jet for its home grown AWACS. Also the SAAB 2000 does not have inflight refueling that can limit its loiter capability.
> 
> Have a happy new year!


Apparently the ERJ-145 option was more expensive.

However, the ZDK03 (KJ-200) project with the Chinese will allow Pakistan to develop its own AEW&C system. At the very least, this would mean integrating the AEW&C radar and systems on an aircraft of its choice. Given Embraer's recent agreements with the Chinese, it is possible that we will see ERJ-145 or another Embraer aircraft serve as an AEW&C platform for PAF in the future.


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## MastanKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Are you serious? If I had an asset worth a quarter of a billion $'s up in the skies I'd want to know about every little thing heading my way.
> RWR is good when the Erieye is illuminated by a hostile, but if that were to ever happen then the Erieye is already in great peril.
> Let's face it, and please don't try to sugar coat it with ESM/RWR and SIGINT the lack of 360° coverage is a weakness of the Erieye system  a weakness that could prove fatal for the Erieye in the India / Pakistan scenario.





Hi,

For the threat that we face---the saab fits very well into our geography---the enemy--ie india---can only manage to come through certain directions---our angles of threat are not 360 degs---you have benn discussing about it for awhile now---.

Why don't you draw up a map of indo pak conflict and show the directions of attack as they would be concieved by the Indian forces and then we will see if the saab is workable or not---.

Other than that it is just an argument of " I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE CROW IS BLACK---IT IS WHITE ".

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## Myth_buster_1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For the threat that we face---the saab fits very well into our geography---the enemy--ie india---can only manage to come through certain directions---our angles of threat are not 360 degs---you have benn discussing about it for awhile now---.
> 
> Why don't you draw up a map of indo pak conflict and show the directions of attack as they would be concieved by the Indian forces and then we will see if the saab is workable or not---.
> 
> Other than that it is just an argument of " I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE CROW IS BLACK---IT IS WHITE ".



Sir G this is by far the best post of the new year! 
infact i would say it is directed towards all those people who brag about erieye front and behind blind spots which they tend to give big big advantage to the enemy on the east.

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## TangoViking

The radar scan-limitations is not bothering anyone other than amateur forum posters. The nearest rotodome competitors can't scan 360d radar all at the same time either. To focus energy they have to stop the dome and create larger blind spots since it's no longer refreshing the full 360.

Embraer got a pdf that also points out what I mentioned b4, maybe a repost and if so I am sorry.

http://www.embraerdefensesystems.co...nho=download/pdf/01-0113296_CapaAEW_pg001.pdf

This is for previous gen Erieye used in Brazil but of course fundamentally the same praxis.





Ps. A very good reason for selecting the Saab 2000 is that you get all the major systems from one supplier and nation.

Aircraft:Saabs own design, own property, ready made.
Radar: Saab
ESM/SPS: Saab
Operator consoles: Saab
Flight test/training: Saab

etc.

No other western AEW company can deliver as much from under one roof.

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## dbc

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For the threat that we face---the saab fits very well into our geography---the enemy--ie india---*can only manage to come through certain directions---our angles of threat are not 360 degs*---you have benn discussing about it for awhile now---.



Are you sure about that? Does India not possess an aircraft carrier and awaiting more? I recall reading about Indian bases in Central Asia, considering this - are you certain your Erieye is secure from the north and south? You also expect to maintain territorial integrity during an all out war, are you certain one or more of your own bases will not fall into enemy hands?

Ive said this before ground detection range of your Erieye is 100 km in ideal conditions; this fact alone puts the Erieye at risk, since it will have to get a lot closer to the battlefield and fly constrained by its blind spots aft and rear. Also the area of engagement does not remain static, when supersonic jets and hypersonic missiles are in play 100 km represents approximately 6 minutes of flying time at Mach 2.

If you still think 360° coverage is over rated then consider this, the Hawkeye E-2D program continues to mount the linear electronically scanned array APY-9 radar on a rotating dome adding several million in development and maintenance cost  why? Simple, because someone in US Navy thinks 360° coverage is worth the extra cost and maintenance hassle.

Finally, I dont think anyone here gets what Ive been trying to convey for a while now I am in no way suggesting the Erieye is a bad choice, all things considered it is a very sensible choice for the PAF. But I do believe PAF needs more than just 4 AWACs/AEW&Cs that have been ordered so far because in an all out war with a numerically superior adversary you will likely lose one or more systems.


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## Patriot

Well, the advertised range of Saab AWACS is 350 KM so ideally it should be 300 at least..100KM are you serious..even F16 Block52 Radar has 70KM+ Range..Besides, we do have 100&#37; radar coverage all over Pakistan and TPS-77 radar can actually look inside India as well (though range is very limited) so the blind spots are not really blind.The main air space network will have data from all nodes.So if something is heading towards AWACS ..first of all AWACS should be able to detect it secondly the ground radars will detect, third the escorts of AWACS will detect it.We have bases all over Pakistan so intercept should not take long specially now that we have refueling..there will be plenty of caps at any time.Keep in mind that PAF Main HQ has data from all nodes..ground radar network, mobile radars, AWACS...they're all connected to PAF fiber network.PAF can place more orders later, if needed and the central Asia base part was bullshit and was debunked by that country and even if someone provide base to Indians they will have a nice cruise or ballistic missile coming their way in a war.


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## dbc

Patriot said:


> Well, the advertised range of Saab AWACS is 350 KM so ideally it should be 300 at least..100KM are you serious..



Look at the graphic bottom right of page.

Aircrafts = 380 - 400 km
Ships = 280 - 300 km
Cruise missiles = 180 km
Ground Targets <= 100 km 

SAAB 2000


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## TaimiKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Look at the graphic bottom right of page.
> 
> Aircrafts = 380 - 400 km
> Ships = 280 - 300 km
> Cruise missiles = 180 km
> Ground Targets <= 100 km
> 
> SAAB 2000



Where in the graph it says that 100KM is the range for ground based targets ???? The gray area describes the Ground Based Radar coverage area, not the ground based targets detection capability. 

This is what the official website of Saab says about its system:

" The ERIEYE AEW&C is the world&#8217;s only operational airborne Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar in service today. The Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C utilises the latest generation ERIEYE radar, now capable of detecting small air targets, hovering helicopters, cruise missiles and small sea targets such as inflatable rubber boats, for a more complete surveillance picture. "

Here it doesn't mentions ground based targets, meaning it has not that objective or mission defined. 

I believe J-Stars are the platform for ground based targets detections, AEW&C are primarily for aerial surveillance.


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## hataf

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Look at the graphic bottom right of page.
> 
> Aircrafts = 380 - 400 km
> Ships = 280 - 300 km
> Cruise missiles = 180 km
> Ground Targets <= 100 km
> 
> SAAB 2000



for what type of ground target
if you are reckoning SAM site here then i think SAM sites uses radars to guide missiles and these radio signals can be detected way beyond 100KM
i think the ground target mentioned hare are tanks, trucks, vehicles and other ground targets, those which don't Emmit radio signals
for example if there is a SAM site with range of 70KM i think its radar signals can be detected 200 to 250km away.

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## dbc

taimikhan said:


> Where in the graph it says that 100KM is the range for ground based targets ????
> 
> This is what the official website of Saab says about its system:
> 
> " The ERIEYE AEW&C is the world&#8217;s only operational airborne Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar in service today. The Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C utilises the latest generation ERIEYE radar, now capable of detecting small air targets, hovering helicopters, cruise missiles and small sea targets such as inflatable rubber boats, for a more complete surveillance picture. "
> 
> Here it doesn't mentions ground based targets, meaning it has not that objective or mission defined.
> 
> I believe J-Stars are the platform for ground based targets detections, AEW&C are primarily for aerial surveillance.



Ground detection is represented by the color grey in the graphic, at zero on vertical y-axis the detection range x is < 100 km. My yardstick for the Erieye is the US Navy Hawkeye 2D, the APY-9 is capable of detecting ground targets at 200 miles (321.8 km), the Eireye can detect small targets like inflatable rubber boats and display SAR images of the target at less than 100 km.
In any case if airborne command and control is not the role intended for the Erieye and PAF simply wishes to use the system as an airborne radar to detect air targets then you&#8217;re right - ground detection range becomes irrelevant along with the rest of my argument .


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## dbc

hataf said:


> for what type of ground target
> if you are reckoning SAM site here then i think SAM sites uses radars to guide missiles and these radio signals can be detected way beyond 100KM
> i think the ground target mentioned hare are tanks, trucks, vehicles and other ground targets, those which don't Emmit radio signals
> for example if there is a SAM site with range of 70KM i think its radar signals can be detected 200 to 250km away.



You are correct but like our Swedish friend you have the radar confused with the RWR.


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## TaimiKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Ground detection is represented by the color grey in the graphic, at zero on vertical y-axis the detection range x is < 100 km. My yardstick for the Erieye is the US Navy Hawkeye 2D, the APY-9 is capable of detecting ground targets at 200 miles (321.8 km), the Eireye can detect small targets like inflatable rubber boats and display SAR images of the target at less than 100 km.
> In any case if airborne command and control is not the role intended for the Erieye and PAF simply wishes to use the system as an airborne radar to detect air targets then youre right - ground detection range becomes irrelevant along with the rest of my argument .



I believe the gray color is not representing ground target identification mark, rather it is showing the range of a ground based radar coverage compared to the Erieye range in red.

So the red and gray are basically the comparison of the Erieye detection range Vs ground based radar coverage. 

Kindly re-check my finding.

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## Patriot

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Look at the graphic bottom right of page.
> 
> Aircrafts = 380 - 400 km
> Ships = 280 - 300 km
> Cruise missiles = 180 km
> Ground Targets <= 100 km
> 
> SAAB 2000


Well, PAF Purchased AWACS primarily for Aeriel surveillance not for detecting enemy forces etc.So 380-400 KM is very very good..even if practical range is like 330 to 350KM.

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## Stealth

Patriot said:


> Well, PAF Purchased AWACS primarily for Aeriel surveillance not for detecting enemy forces etc.So 380-400 KM is very very good..even if practical range is like 330 to 350KM.



Some one bought a car for just "Standing his car inside roof" not for drive. Example of your comment lol Pakistan spending bn$$ for just primarily Aeriel Surveillance" wow how much money we have if we spend bn$$ on such hardware which we will use for just Primirly lol

Logically we bought Saab for DETECT Enemy Aircrafts and Enemy ground military in War situation or any incoming missile to us "which is Basic use of AWACS".


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## dbc

taimikhan said:


> I believe the gray color is not representing ground target identification mark, rather it is showing the range of a ground based radar coverage compared to the Erieye range in red.
> 
> So the red and gray are basically the comparison of the Erieye detection range Vs ground based radar coverage.
> 
> Kindly re-check my finding.



My bad  I misinterpreted the graph, here is why ...

"_...Saab is providing a "third-generation" version of the radar, says Soderstrom. "We have six customers and none has exactly the same radar." In particular, its sea surveillance capability is better. Saab says that at 25,000 ft., it can track jet skis to the horizon. Altitude resolution is also improved. *Four aircraft can sustain two patrol stations around the clock for 30 days.* _" 

Aviation Week

If you do the math at 25,000 ft the visual horizon is at 311.81 km and at the SAAB 2000's flight ceiling of 20,000 ft it is 278.89.
So according to Mr Soderstrom, the Erieye should be able to track jet skis at sea level from a distance of 279 km which is pretty darned good.

My apologies to taimikhan, I seem to have read the graph wrong .

But do take a look at his second part of Mr Soderstrom's statement
"Four aircraft can sustain two patrol stations around the clock for 30 days."
What does that tell you about 360 ° coverage? It takes 4 Erieyes to maintain 24/7 coverage of just *two* patrol stations - you still think PAF has enough?

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## fhassan

^^
Please eat some chocolate.

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## Myth_buster_1

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Are you serious? If I had an asset worth a quarter of a billion $'s up in the skies I'd want to know about every little thing heading my way.
> RWR is good when the Erieye is illuminated by a hostile, but if that were to ever happen then the Erieye is already in great peril.
> Let's face it, and please don't try to sugar coat it with ESM/RWR and SIGINT the lack of 360° coverage is a weakness of the Erieye system  a weakness that could prove fatal for the Erieye in the India / Pakistan scenario.





Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Are you sure about that? Does India not possess an aircraft carrier and awaiting more? I recall reading about Indian bases in Central Asia, considering this - are you certain your Erieye is secure from the north and south? You also expect to maintain territorial integrity during an all out war, are you certain one or more of your own bases will not fall into enemy hands?
> 
> Ive said this before ground detection range of your Erieye is 100 km in ideal conditions; this fact alone puts the Erieye at risk, since it will have to get a lot closer to the battlefield and fly constrained by its blind spots aft and rear. Also the area of engagement does not remain static, when supersonic jets and hypersonic missiles are in play 100 km represents approximately 6 minutes of flying time at Mach 2.
> 
> If you still think 360° coverage is over rated then consider this, the Hawkeye E-2D program continues to mount the linear electronically scanned array APY-9 radar on a rotating dome adding several million in development and maintenance cost  why? Simple, because someone in US Navy thinks 360° coverage is worth the extra cost and maintenance hassle.
> 
> Finally, I dont think anyone here gets what Ive been trying to convey for a while now I am in no way suggesting the Erieye is a bad choice, all things considered it is a very sensible choice for the PAF. But I do believe PAF needs more than just 4 AWACs/AEW&Cs that have been ordered so far because in an all out war with a numerically superior adversary you will likely lose one or more systems.



oh dear dear madam chocolate. 







remember these are air borne radars... meaning they are not limited to one location like illustrated above... notice with the use of only 3 erieyes at same time they are able to over lap each other radar's coverage while covering 95% of pakistan.... 
and oh god please.... you are making it sound like its a walk in the park for indian navy to dock their air craft carrier on south of Pak and operating freely without being detected by Pakistan navy, TPS-77 long range radars, and intelligence? or are you trying to imply that in case of war erieyes will be operating in isolation on their own without any escort package with BVR AMRAAMs? dont you think erieye/s will be stationed accordingly to the threat, where the threat comes from? if they find out IN AC lurking in PA waters then surely it will be picked and dealt by PN subs, surface fleet, and long range AShW planes.....
their is a option of fitting saab-2000 with towed radar decoys in near future (and PAF wont hesitate to do so) and along with fighter escorts i dont think a high value asset will be a sitting duck for enemy fighters.... 
so please dont take things out of context.... PAF and USN have different doctrine and a different environment to fight in... You dont need a stealth fighter for close ground support when advance non stealth fighters can perform the task much effectively. USN operates in almost every other corner of the world so a threat could come from any corner so 360degree hawkeye2D is needed... however it does not mean that the platform simply becomes much more superior due to its detection coverage.. mind you 1980s E-2 also had that capability... in case of PAF... main conventional threat comes from only one side of its border which is india on the east... we will concentrate 90+% of war assests towards india while they can only afford 60-70% in return due to a increasing threat from china...

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## SSGPA1

I look at this way, till recent past we didn't have any AWAC system and today we do have one. So we welcome and appreciate whatever range or limits the system has because we didn't have this capability in the past.

Kargil, attack on Indian Parliament and 26/11 all happened when Pakistan didn't have this capability and what did India do? Nothing because India is not prepared to take on Pakistan period! 

So these AWACs will serve as another reason why India shouldn't attack Pakistan.


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## dbc

Growler said:


> oh dear dear madam chocolate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> remember these are air borne radars... meaning they are not limited to one location like illustrated above... notice with the use of only 3 erieyes at same time they are able to over lap each other radar's coverage while covering 95% of pakistan....



_Another configuration derived from this idea is that of the Swedish Ericsson Erieye, which uses a two sided array in a beam shaped structure, carried above the fuselage of a twin engined commuter airframe. The two sided array used in this arrangement is almost as long as the APY-2 antenna of the AWACS, potentially providing similar angular resolution performance at range, on a very small airframe. 

This arrangement however suffers from an obvious and significant operational limitation, as it cannot provide 360 degree coverage, using conventional active phased array technology. With each array scanning a 120 degree sector, the two sided array has a 60 degree blind sector over the nose and the tail of the aircraft, and degraded antenna performance beyond 45 degrees off the beam of the aircraft. With Sweden's compact geography this would probably not be an issue, *as multiple platforms would cover a single area, and operating in pairs, the aircraft could patrol in two racetrack orbits set 90 degrees apart to provide overlapping coverage.* The success of this scheme then devolves down to the capability of the computer datalink networking which links the platforms to each other or the ground air defence centre, to ensure that a comprehensive picture of the air situation exists at whatever is the central command post. 

In a heavy ECM environment, where platform to platform or platform to ground datalink function is interfered with, the two sided array has thus a major limitation._

Carlo Kopp
AEW&C - Phased Array Technology

"...Saab is providing a "third-generation" version of the radar, says Soderstrom. "We have six customers and none has exactly the same radar." In particular, its sea surveillance capability is better. Saab says that at 25,000 ft., it can track jet skis to the horizon. *Altitude resolution is also improved. Four aircraft can sustain two patrol stations around the clock for 30 days. *" 


Carlo Kopp and Soderstrom disagree with your count of 3; I personally think 6-8 is a more realistic minimum for PAF.

The rest of your post was unnecessary since I was working on two incorrect assumptions the first, ground detection range is limited to 100 km and the second assumption was that the Erieye is to be employed by the PAF as an airborne command and control center but instead it appears the platform will likely be used as an airborne surveillance system.


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## FreekiN

UAV is online. 

Enemy AC130 inbound!

Sorry, it was so tempting. lolol


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## BATMAN

@ chocolate
Why don't you reffer to other sources for your quries, if you are not satisfied?



> platform will likely be used as an airborne surveillance system.



*AEW&C*Erieye is a air borne early warning plus control center as name suggest.
You should know that with basic characteristics AEW&C can be applied in any manner.... and there can be more than one application, hence why would PAF limitit self to mere survillance? e.g why not guide in missile homing?

to have airborne command or not its a matter of operational philosophy and not a technical matter of basic AEW&C specs.
It appears PAF did not opted for it and indians did! so what does it prove to you or is your point at the end?


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## MastanKhan

Growler,

Thanks for the map and coverage---to me it looks like that pak only needs to cover between 120 to 140 degs from each awacs---that should take care of things from one end to the other with 3 aircraft.

DBC---As far as indian airbases in kazakistan---I very much doubt that those bases would be allowed to be used in a conflict---that would be involving a third muslim country in a conflict and that won't happen.

You have to look where we stood yesterday---with no eye over the horizon, now we can peek at things 100's of km away---that is a force multiplier.

With the acquisition of chinese awacs in the future, we will be much better off.

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## dbc

MastanKhan said:


> Growler,
> 
> Thanks for the map and coverage---to me it looks like that pak only needs to cover between 120 to 140 degs from each awacs---that should take care of things from one end to the other with 3 aircraft.
> 
> DBC---As far as indian airbases in kazakistan---I very much doubt that those basis would be allowed to be used in a conflict---that would be involving a third muslim country in a conflict and that won't happen.
> 
> You have to look where we stood yesterday---with no eye over the horizon, now we can peek at things 100's of km away---that is a force multiplier.
> 
> With the acquisition of chinese awacs in the future, we will be much better off.



Assuming the green squares in Growlers map represent an Erieye and ignoring the unfillable gaps in coverage that extends well into India in at least three places at any given time (remember 60° blind spots fore and aft) three Erieye's is not enough simply because you cannot fly 3 of the 4 platforms 24/7 during a crisis - you will need at least two spares. As for 360° coverage I am still convinced it is essential if not while scanning then certainly while tracking hostiles - because the last thing you want is to lose a hostile being tracked in your blind spot, especially true if you tracking several terrain hugging supersonic cruise missiles or worst several supersonic anti-radiation missiles .
The Chinese system will not work with the Erieye, unless money and effort is expended in making the two systems compatible - an expensive proposition to say the least assuming both parties are willing to work together and agree to share IP.

Conclusion: Y'all will need more Erieyes minimum 6, preferably 8 or 9.


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## Patriot

Stealth said:


> Some one bought a car for just "Standing his car inside roof" not for drive. Example of your comment lol Pakistan spending bn$$ for just primarily Aeriel Surveillance" wow how much money we have if we spend bn$$ on such hardware which we will use for just Primirly lol
> 
> Logically we bought Saab for DETECT Enemy Aircrafts and Enemy ground military in War situation or any incoming missile to us "which is Basic use of AWACS".



 Stealth you are an idiot buddy.Sorry had to say this.

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## TaimiKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Assuming the green squares in Growlers map represent an Erieye and ignoring the unfillable gaps in coverage that extends well into India in at least three places at any given time (remember 60° blind spots fore and aft) three Erieye's is not enough simply because you cannot fly 3 of the 4 platforms 24/7 during a crisis - you will need at least two spares. As for 360° coverage I am still convinced it is essential if not while scanning then certainly while tracking hostiles - because the last thing you want is to lose a hostile being tracked in your blind spot, especially true if you tracking several terrain hugging supersonic cruise missiles or worst several supersonic anti-radiation missiles .
> The Chinese system will not work with the Erieye, unless money and effort is expended in making the two systems compatible - an expensive proposition to say the least assuming both parties are willing to work together and agree to share IP.
> 
> Conclusion: Y'all will need more Erieyes minimum 6, preferably 8 or 9.



Count in the 4 Chinese ones too, which most probably would be having 360 coverage. 

So 4+4=8, not a bad strength. Plus who knows we order more Eriieyes or even the Chinese systems, making the figure go past 10. 

But i believe 8-10 would be sufficient enough, complemented by land based radars, a long range SAM system and a good sized AF.


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## TangoViking

The Hawkeye can't in any version scan 360 all at the same time, it acheives so called 360 by not having the fast refresh rate of a fixed system. If you have the dome rotating and spot a cruise missile... can you afford the many seconds it takes to get another update? No, so the E-2D method is to stop the dome and look into interesting areas. That also means it's no longer refreshing 360. By changing the array in the E-2C to a ESA in 2D they could reduce refresh rates without any redesign to the aircraft and functionallity. But still for priority tracking the array must be fixed like the arrays on ALL aesa-based AEW's around the world.

When would the PAF need full 360 on the radar? Both the IAF and PAF AEW's would naturally fly alongside the border to support the situational picture. The other option, flying towards the border means very soon you will be close to crossing over. In just a few minutes. That serves no purpose and is illogical. And then there's the ground radars and other AEW's that also watch the sky so the aircraft itself doesnt only have its own tactical methods for flying the radar and a long range SPS to rest on. 

People who dismisses the ESM/IFF/HES-21 as only a RWR is blatantly wrong.

There's no reason why the Chinese systems wouldn't work with the erieyes in both contributing to the joint situational picture.

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## blain2

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Assuming the green squares in Growler&#8217;s map represent an Erieye and ignoring the unfillable gaps in coverage that extends well into India in at least three places at any given time (remember 60&#176; blind spots fore and aft) three Erieye's is not enough simply because you cannot fly 3 of the 4 platforms 24/7 during a crisis - you will need at least two spares. As for 360&#176; coverage I am still convinced it is essential if not while scanning then certainly while tracking hostiles - because the last thing you want is to lose a hostile being tracked in your blind spot, especially true if you tracking several terrain hugging supersonic cruise missiles or worst several supersonic anti-radiation missiles .
> The Chinese system will not work with the Erieye, unless money and effort is expended in making the two systems compatible - an expensive proposition to say the least assuming both parties are willing to work together and agree to share IP.
> 
> Conclusion: Y'all will need more Erieye&#8217;s minimum 6, preferably 8 or 9.



Please see post 1470 for some background on this now inane discussion.

As to the your points about the need for more, there should be realization that Over the Horizon radar coverage as afforded by the Erieyes is not the only asset available to Pakistan. We have a very well integrated ground based radar network available too. Although some gaps remain however between the ground based radars and the Erieyes, PAF will be in a very good overall situation to get early warning of any impending ingresses.

The threat to Pakistan is primarily uni-directional and in the past when we have had to face threats from both the Eastern and Western borders, we have employed our ground based radars to cater to such needs. The employment of Erieyes will be no different and more importantly, the Erieyes will fill the gaps that the ground based radar coverage has. As such optimal employment and sensor fusion is more important to the PAF than worrying about maintaining 3-4 AEW flights simultaneously on station 24x7 given the current envisaged threat.

In case of hostilities, IAF will be moving many of their assets closer to the Pakistan border in any case. In such cases, although early warning by Erieye will be better than what is available currently, even then it will be limited (this goes for India as well) because the attacking aircraft are so close to their intended targets. As such the role of Pakistani Erieyes will not just be providing early warning and doing so all on their own, because as stated, they will be backed by a pretty well integrated layer of recently upgraded ground based radars. Secondly, Erieyes will be providing the very essential control function to the combat assets and for this the numbers purchased from Sweden and those to be acquired from China will suffice.

Lets also not forget that contrary to your assertion, 360 degree coverage for the PAF was/is not a deal breaker as we were offered the most upgraded version of Hawkeye 2000 based on the APS-145 radar which not only provides very good tracking ranges, but also offers full 360 degree coverage. Despite this, PAF had issues with its performance in certain regimes/terrains and these requirements were met by the Erieye despite the full 360 degree coverage issue.

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## TangoViking

PAF got the high-end installation of BOW in HES-21 with the Digital Receiver and interferometer antenna arrays on the wing tips.

BOW - Radar Warning - ESM System



> *Unlike traditional RWR designs,* the BOW narrowband receiver is a four-channel device with full monopulse capability. This means that the narrowband receiver can be used to detect not only CW and high PRF signals but any type of signal that falls within its bandwidth. The local oscillator is a high-speed synthesiser which permits optimised search based on library information. The precise synthesiser and a narrowband DFD give excellent frequency accuracy and resolution.
> 
> Both receivers have their own video processors, which independently characterise every single pulse. Direction-finding accuracy is achieved by continuous calibration of the RF chains. The narrowband receiver is normally searching but can also be cued by the wideband receiver.


http://products.saabgroup.com/PDBWebNew/GetFile.aspx?PathType=ProductFiles&FileType=Files&Id=7852



> Configurations from basic RWR to high
> performance ESM and ELINT system applications
> can be defined from the same
> basic architecture. Sensor-coverage, system
> functions and data interfaces are adapted
> to match the requirements of the particular
> application.
> 
> The receiver sub-systems *for the
> BOW family&#8217;s high end configurations also
> include a Digital Receiver and interferometer
> antenna arrays, resulting in long detection
> range, detailed analysis and fingerprinting
> of complex signals and high performance
> emitter location. That creates excellent performance
> and ESM/ELINT capabilities. All
> receiver sub-systems cover basic frequency
> ranges and have 360&#176; DF-coverage.
> *




Direction Finding accuracy is less than one degree.

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## dbc

TangoViking said:


> The Hawkeye can't in any version scan 360 all at the same time, it acheives so called 360 by not having the fast refresh rate of a fixed system. If you have the dome rotating and spot a cruise missile... can you afford the many seconds it takes to get another update? No, so the E3D method is to stop the dome and look into interesting areas. That also means it's no longer refreshing 360. By changing the array in the E-2C to a ESA in 2D they could reduce refresh rates without any redesign to the aircraft and functionallity. But still for priority tracking the array must be fixed like the arrays on ALL aesa-based AEW's around the world.
> 
> When would the PAF need full 360 on the radar? Both the IAF and PAF AEW's would naturally fly alongside the border to support the situational picture. The other option, flying towards the border means very soon you will be close to crossing over. In just a few minutes. That serves no purpose and is illogical. And then there's the ground radars and other AEW's that also watch the sky so the aircraft itself doesnt only have its own tactical methods for flying the radar and a long range SPS to rest on.
> 
> People who dismisses the ESM/IFF/HES-21 as only a RWR is blatantly wrong.
> 
> There's no reason why the Chinese systems wouldn't work with the erieyes in both contributing to the joint situational picture.



The dome on the Hawkeye does not "stop rotating" and yes it does allow 360 deg coverage baring degraded performance at 45 deg off-beam point and beyond.

_"People who dismisses the ESM/IFF/HES-21 as only a RWR is blatantly wrong."_ - please elaborate?

_"There's no reason why the Chinese systems wouldn't work with the erieyes in both contributing to the joint situational picture. "_ 

I was referring to pairing of Erieye with KJ-200, do you believe SAAB will agree to do this and in the process share IP with Pakistan / China?


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## dbc

blain2 said:


> Please see post 1470 for some background on this now inane discussion.
> 
> As to the your points about the need for more, there should be realization that Over the Horizon radar coverage as afforded by the Erieyes is not the only asset available to Pakistan. We have a very well integrated ground based radar network available too. Although some gaps remain however between the ground based radars and the Erieyes, PAF will be in a very good overall situation to get early warning of any impending ingresses.
> 
> The threat to Pakistan is primarily uni-directional and in the past when we have had to face threats from both the Eastern and Western borders, we have employed our ground based radars to cater to such needs. The employment of Erieyes will be no different and more importantly, the Erieyes will fill the gaps that the ground based radar coverage has. As such optimal employment and sensor fusion is more important to the PAF than worrying about maintaining 3-4 AEW flights simultaneously on station 24x7 given the current envisaged threat.
> 
> In case of hostilities, IAF will be moving many of their assets closer to the Pakistan border in any case. In such cases, although early warning by Erieye will be better than what is available currently, even then it will be limited (this goes for India as well) because the attacking aircraft are so close to their intended targets. As such the role of Pakistani Erieyes will not just be providing early warning and doing so all on their own, because as stated, they will be backed by a pretty well integrated layer of recently upgraded ground based radars. Secondly, Erieyes will be providing the very essential control function to the combat assets and for this the numbers purchased from Sweden and those to be acquired from China will suffice.



Good to finally hear from someone in the know. I understand now that the Erieye is one important piece in your air *defense* strategy , but will the Erieye ever be used in support of an offensive operation deep in enemy territory (India)?


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## TaimiKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Good to finally hear from someone in the know. I understand now that the Erieye is one important piece in your air *defense* strategy , but will the Erieye ever be used in support of an offensive operation deep in enemy territory (India)?



No plans for deep offensive strategy, nor can we support it nor is Indian Army that weak. 

Our strategy is defensive, with limited offense capability. 

As some guys say offense is the best defense


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## Patriot

The AWACS will stay behind the borders...not only Pakistani but Indians also.


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## TangoViking

Replies in bold.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The dome on the Hawkeye does not "stop rotating" and yes it does allow 360 deg coverage baring degraded performance at 45 deg off-beam point and beyond.
> 
> *No. In the E-2D the radar array stops. *
> 
> _"People who dismisses the ESM/IFF/HES-21 as only a RWR is blatantly wrong."_ - please elaborate?
> 
> *It's obvious in the above follow up post. And on other available info from Saab.*
> 
> _"There's no reason why the Chinese systems wouldn't work with the erieyes in both contributing to the joint situational picture. "_
> 
> I was referring to pairing of Erieye with KJ-200, do you believe SAAB will agree to do this and in the process share IP with Pakistan / China?
> 
> *"pairing" ? It's all managed on a ground level that takes input from different clients to produce a quality assured situational picture for command. It's not at all complicated to integrate. It's just target and geo data in x/y/z. Or do you actually think there's C&C consoles for every piece of sensor in the inventory?*



............
Edit:

Quick google for the E-2D stuff.



> *The array can electronically scan in both stationary and
> rotating mode, thus delivering increased system flexibility.*



http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/ms2/pdf/APY9-1209.pdf

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## dbc

TangoViking said:


> Replies in bold.
> 
> 
> 
> ............
> Edit:
> 
> Quick google for the E-2D stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/ms2/pdf/APY9-1209.pdf



Something&#8217;s you can't glean from google searches and product catalogues. The Hawkeye is the biggest bird on deck, extremely difficult to fly and even more difficult to land and to make matters worse the Hawkeye is not equipped with digital flight controls; it is flown entirely by a human pilot. I've heard from E-2 pilots that the dome needs to rotate at a constant 6 RPM for flight safety. Perhaps Gambit can bring his wisdom to this discussion and explain why.


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## gambit

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Somethings you can't glean from google searches and product catalogues. The Hawkeye is the biggest bird on deck, extremely difficult to fly and even more difficult to land and to make matters worse the Hawkeye is not equipped with digital flight controls; it is flown entirely by a human pilot. I've heard from E-2 pilots that the *dome needs to rotate at a constant 6 RPM for flight safety.* Perhaps Gambit can bring his wisdom to this discussion and explain why.


The 6 rpm is for during radar operation. But the radome itself must continue to rotate, albeit at a much lower rpm, for lubrication purposes even when the radar is not in operation.

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## Myth_buster_1

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Assuming the green squares in Growler&#8217;s map represent an Erieye and ignoring the unfillable gaps in coverage that extends well into India in at least three places at any given time (remember 60&#176; blind spots fore and aft) three Erieye's is not enough simply because you cannot fly 3 of the 4 platforms 24/7 during a crisis -


You are just being a women.. thats it.. 
here is a bit more elaborated illustration for you.. its colorful  







> you will need at least two spares. As for 360&#176; coverage I am still convinced it is essential if not while scanning then certainly while tracking hostiles - because the last thing you want is to lose a hostile being tracked in your blind spot, especially true if you tracking several terrain hugging supersonic cruise missiles or worst several supersonic anti-radiation missiles .


lady you do know Erieye is a airborne platform so it has no limitation as to where it can scan and track. your point of those 2 30 degree detection spots as being "blind spot" is totally totally wrong. it can scan that area and once the target is identify the air craft can simply position its self to bring that target within its 160 degree side lobe. 


> The Chinese system will not work with the Erieye, unless money and effort is expended in making the two systems compatible - an expensive proposition to say the least assuming both parties are willing to work together and agree to share IP.


They dont have to be linked with each other (however it will be even better) because both systems will be linked to ground command center and they can coordinate 


> Conclusion: Y'all will need more Erieye&#8217;s minimum 6, preferably 8 or 9.


conclusion: PAF has already signed a deal for 8 AEWC (erieye and ZDK-03) and may even execute the original plan for 6-7 Erieye systems in near future. Erieye is not gonna work in isolation and the entire force is not gonna be dependent on just 1-2 Erieyes operating in sky... infact their are so many systems such as long range ground base radars, another type of AEWC and data linked fighter jets so the burden is not just on erieyes.

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## Myth_buster_1

wow... i did not over lap the tri erieye systems 160 degree side lobe correctly in the previous map but here is just awesome result!!!


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## dbc

Looks like I was right after all 360 deg coverage is a concern for PAF , according to the Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman PAF will get *4* KJ-2000 (IL-76) from China  in 2011. 

Early warning aircraft inducted into PAF By Iftikhar A. Khan & Yaqoob Malik 
Friday, 01 Jan, 2010

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## Sapper

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Looks like I was right after all 360 deg coverage is a concern for PAF , according to the Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman PAF will get *4* KJ-2000 (IL-76) from China  in 2011.



I think hte above report is mistaken ... simply because China has very few IL76 platforms and they are themselves looking for more IL76 airframes.

Again ... please remember that all reports (except last one) suggest that Pakistan is not getting KJ2000 (two thousand), instead Pakistan is getting ZDK-03 loosely based on KJ200 (two hundred) with possible changes to mount a radome with 360 degree coverage with either spinning array or 3xstatic arrays, no one except PAF knows the details so lets not speculate.

Regards,
Sapper


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## dbc

Sapper said:


> I think hte above report is mistaken ... simply because China has very few IL76 platforms and they are themselves looking for more IL76 airframes.
> 
> Again ... please remember that all reports (except last one) suggest that Pakistan is not getting KJ2000 (two thousand), instead Pakistan is getting ZDK-03 loosely based on KJ200 (two hundred) with possible changes to mount a radome with 360 degree coverage with either spinning array or 3xstatic arrays, no one except PAF knows the details so lets not speculate.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



Sapper, your preeminent english language newspaper claims the Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman made the above statement during a press conference, I don't see how you can call that speculation?


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## Stealth

Sapper said:


> I think hte above report is mistaken ... simply because China has very few IL76 platforms and they are themselves looking for more IL76 airframes.
> 
> Again ... please remember that all reports (except last one) suggest that Pakistan is not getting KJ2000 (two thousand), instead Pakistan is getting ZDK-03 loosely based on KJ200 (two hundred) with possible changes to mount a radome with 360 degree coverage with either spinning array or 3xstatic arrays, no one except PAF knows the details so lets not speculate.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



I am also confused about this news KJ-2000. Still not understand how is that possible to get 4 KJ2000 I still need Authentic source from proper Airforce Source. These reports something wrong. China itsself have just few IL series Aircrafts how is that possible Pakistan will get 4 KJ-2000. Technically its not possible in such short time especially.


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## Ababeel

Can any one reply this question:
As we know that JF-17 has a KLJ7 or 10 RADAR with a range of +105Km, is it possible that a SAAB Erieye 2000 with 350Km range RADAR, tracks a SU-30MKI and pass the data, e.g. direction, distance etc. to JF-17 to engage it?
Is it possible?


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## dbc

Ababeel said:


> Can any one reply this question:
> As we know that JF-17 has a KLJ7 or 10 RADAR with a range of +105Km, is it possible that a SAAB Erieye 2000 with 350Km range RADAR, tracks a SU-30MKI and pass the data, e.g. direction, distance etc. to JF-17 to engage it?
> Is it possible?



Yes, including the stains on the MKI pilots tidy whities 
Just kidding, about the tidy whities part the rest is true and is what the Erieye was designed to do.

One caveat, the Erieye will fail to detect the MKI if the MKI is radio silent (not transmitting) and flying in front or behind the Erieye.


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## blain2

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Looks like I was right after all 360 deg coverage is a concern for PAF , according to the Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman PAF will get *4* KJ-2000 (IL-76) from China  in 2011.
> 
> Early warning aircraft inducted into PAF By Iftikhar A. Khan & Yaqoob Malik
> Friday, 01 Jan, 2010



DBC,

How did you deduce that because PAF is acquiring the Chinese platforms, it is because of the 360 degree issue? 

There are very many other reasons for Pakistan to go for these systems. Some strategic from a defence production standpoint and some geo-political.

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## gambit

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Yes, including the stains on the MKI pilots tidy whities
> Just kidding, about the tidy whities part the rest is true and is what the Erieye was designed to do.
> 
> *One caveat, the Erieye will fail to detect the MKI if the MKI is radio silent (not transmitting) and flying in front or behind the Erieye.*


Well...If the MKI is in front of the Erieye, then he can transmit all he want since his radar is directional -- front only. But if the MKI is behind the AWACS and he is not transmitting, then he is blind and must rely on less capable sensor, if any is available. People are making way too much noise over this front-rear coverage gap.

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## Patriot

According to DBC Assumptions the Escorts will be sleeping and the ground radar wont work.

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## Myth_buster_1

Ababeel said:


> Can any one reply this question:
> As we know that JF-17 has a KLJ7 or 10 RADAR with a range of +105Km, is it possible that a SAAB Erieye 2000 with 350Km range RADAR, tracks a SU-30MKI and pass the data, e.g. direction, distance etc. to JF-17 to engage it?
> Is it possible?


SAAB-2000 erieye has about 400-450km instrumental range with capability to detect and tract 4.5 generation semi stealth aircraft at 380km range. 


Death.By.Chocolate said:


> One caveat, the Erieye will fail to detect the MKI if the MKI is radio silent (not transmitting) and flying in front or behind the Erieye.


 ammmm.. right lady.. a question..
1. how will mki get behind or front of erieye when it will be flying longitudinally? 
and you do know that that Erieye has some ability to detect aircraft in the 30° sectors fore and aft??


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## Sapper

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Sapper, your preeminent english language newspaper claims the Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman made the above statement during a press conference, I don't see how you can call that speculation?



Dear, don't trust anything reported in our newspapers, half of the time they don't even know themselves what they are talking about, especially when it comes to defense news.

I have watched the all the interviews of my ACM very carefully, and no information about any of that was revealed, also no other newspaper reported it as well. What was said by ACM was that we are working on 4 Chinese AEW&C as well, and thanks to our journalistic ethics, the news was extrapolated to say that we are getting 4 KLJ2000 with IL76 airframe.

Once again, No confirmed reports on anything except ZDK-03.

Regards,
Sapper


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## dbc

Growler said:


> ammmm.. right lady.. a question..
> 1. how will mki get behind or front of erieye when it will be flying longitudinally?
> and you do know that that Erieye has some ability to detect aircraft in the 30&#176; sectors fore and aft??






Patriot said:


> According to DBC Assumptions the Escorts will be sleeping and the ground radar wont work.





gambit said:


> Well...If the MKI is in front of the Erieye, then he can transmit all he want since his radar is directional -- front only. But if the MKI is behind the AWACS and he is not transmitting, then he is blind and must rely on less capable sensor, if any is available. People are making way too much noise over this front-rear coverage gap.



Everyone wants a piece of chocolate, I get that a lot 

*&#8220;People are making way too much noise over this front-rear coverage gap&#8221;* - I bet you don&#8217;t apply the same logic to insurance, medical or otherwise &#8211; most prefer full. How about 3G coverage? Or, any sort of coverage for that matter more is better - why should surveillance be any different? 

Here is where I want an honest answer from you, imagine you are a fleet commander and presented with a choice between an E-2D and Erieye which one would you pick to watch over your naval assets? The E-2D of course, a no brainer really since the fleet is at sea and threats can approach from multiple axes concurrently, full 360 degree coverage is essential.

I suppose we can both agree that 360&#176; coverage is essential for concurrent threats from multiple axes and begin to address the real question at hand: the Erieye&#8217;s lack of 360&#176; coverage and how it impacts Pakistan&#8217;s defense. I will admit that it is not a big deal provided status quo prevails, Pakistan's territorial integrity is preserved, bases, assets and every conceivable protection is fully functional and ready for action. Now here&#8217;s the kicker, against a large and increasingly sophisticated adversary all bets are off.

Bases may have been captured assets destroyed and before you know it you are faced with concurrent threats from multiple axes. If news of KJ-2000 acquisition is true then I&#8217;m glad, for it will serve Pakistan a little bit better than the Erieye and at times of war a little can go a long way.


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## SBD-3

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Sapper, your preeminent english language newspaper claims the Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman made the above statement during a press conference, I don't see how you can call that speculation?


I think these are refuelers rather than AWACS



> Pakistan to induct 4 Chinese Airborne Refullers - PAF Chief
> August 10, 2009 | H S Rao
> 
> LONDON: Pakistan Air Force plans to induct four Chinese airborne refullers next year, in a move to counter the Indian Air Forces' enhanced capabilities after New Delhi acquired six similar aircraft, the PAF chief has said.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Qamar Suleman underlined that the airborne refullers were necessary to match the IAF, six years after India acquired six similar aircraft.
> 
> "This is an absolutely new capability we are getting, which we are inducting. We never had this capability in the Pakistan Air force," Suleman told the Jane's Defence Weekly.
> 
> He said to match the Indian Air Force's acquisition of the first of three Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS), his force would receive four Chinese systems between 2011 and 2012.
> 
> He also termed as "alarming" the IAF's intention of purchasing 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft, saying Pakistan needed "to have something matching.



further news


> PAF to complete induction of four Ilyushin Il-78 aircraft by 2010
> August 10, 2009 | Daily Pk
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman has said that the Pakistan Air Force plans to complete the induction of up to four Ilyushin Il-78 aircraft fitted with a mid-air refueling capability, extending the capacity of its fighter aircraft to patrol areas over the border region by 2010.
> 
> In an exclusive interview with Janes Defense Weekly, Rao Qamar said, the refueling capability is an "extremely significant" development. "This is an absolutely new capability we are getting, which we are inducting. We never had this capability in the Pakistan Air Force," he said.
> 
> Answering to a question, he said, US-supplied F-16 multirole fighter aircraft can stay for up to four, five, six hours in Pakistans northern areas, ranging from the northern Swat valley and its surrounding region.
> 
> "During this time, if there is any militant attack anywhere in the FATA [Federally Administered Tribal Areas], these aircraft can go there immediately, within minutes, and they can bomb the militants. It will create the right kind of deterrence against the militants", he said.
> 
> He said the PAFs operations in the north have brought significant pressure to bear on Taliban militants, who were on the advance until the recent military campaign in Swat began reversing the tide.
> 
> "They [Taliban militants] never see us on the ground. The only time they find out that an aircraft has struck is when the bomb explodes on them. It creates a great psychological impact", he said.
> 
> Replying to a question, Rao Qamar went on to say, the PAF was focused on enemy air forces. We remained focused on enemy land forces and enemy air forces and, therefore, we were preparing ourselves to fight against organized modern air forces and against modern armies.
> 
> "We never thought we would be required to fight against militants or be involved in counter-insurgency operations. When we started this [counter-insurgency], we had to learn while on the job. We had to re-orient our thinking, we had to refine our ... existing SOPs [standard operating procedures] and we had to develop new SOPs for this kind of warfare. However, we did that very quickly", he said.
> 
> The recent operation has led the PAF to identify new areas for development, such as acquiring more precision-guided bombs, enhanced night precision attack capabilities and the capability to monitor communications and track the movement of militants, he said.
> 
> The PAFs other, already established, requirements include the development of the JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, co-produced with China, he said.
> 
> The PAF plans to eventually induct up to 250 JF-17 fighters, making the aircraft the backbone of its inventory, he said, adding that, the first fully made in Pakistan JF-17 is expected to be produced by the end of this year at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra, north of Islamabad. However, there is still a requirement for a more advanced fighter aircraft, as the PAF prepares to counter the future edge that may be acquired by the IAF once it completes the planned purchase of 126 multirole combat aircraft (MRCAs), he said.
> 
> "We knew about this requirement of the Indian Air Force for 126 latest-generation fighter aircraft. Yes, it is an alarming development because when they get 126 such capable aircraft, then we also need to have something matching to counter that threat," ACM Qamar said.
> 
> Replying to a question, he said, the PAF has finalized the technical proposal for the FC-20 and informed the Chinese of its requirements.
> 
> "[The technical proposal] is more or less finalized now. There are some changes that are required, which [the Chinese] are making," he said.
> 
> The next stage of the contract will involve financial negotiations between China and Pakistan, he said. Air Chief Marshall Qamar believes that, following the signing of a contract, it will take two to two-and-a-half years before the first FC-20 aircraft is received.
> 
> Rao Qamar Suleman answering to a question said the PAF has also signed a contract for the purchase of four Chinese airborne early warning and control aircraft. The first of these is due to arrive in 2011 and the remaining three will be delivered in 2012.

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## unicorn148

IL 78 is a tanker version of IL76 and PAF may be planning to induct more tankers but not KJ2000 because the number of KJ2000 the chinese are having is four


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## TaimiKhan

unicorn148 said:


> IL 78 is a tanker version of IL76 and PAF may be planning to induct more tankers but not KJ2000 because the number of KJ2000 the chinese are having is four



PAF is having the multi role platform, tanker/transporter version. 

And if we are gonna get KJ-2000, that would not be from the Chinese fleet, rather we will order a brand new one for ourselves. 

And the reason China has 4 and we can't get KJ-2000 is neither the Chinese have more platforms to make KJ-2000s as their last deal for IL-76s/78s fell apart, nor we can as we don't have sources to buy the IL-76/78 platforms.

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## unicorn148

taimikhan said:


> PAF is having the multi role platform, tanker/transporter version.
> 
> And if we are gonna get KJ-2000, that would not be from the Chinese fleet, rather we will order a brand new one for ourselves.
> 
> And the reason China has 4 and we can't get KJ-2000 is neither the Chinese have more platforms to make KJ-2000s as their last deal for IL-76s/78s fell apart, nor we can as we don't have sources to buy the IL-76/78 platforms.



i too said the same because some were saying that IL78 of PAf can be converted KJ2000 
Pakistan cant buy a new one's because if they can they would have bought by now and Russia may not be willing to sell to you


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## TaimiKhan

unicorn148 said:


> i too said the same because some were saying that IL78 of PAf can be converted KJ2000
> Pakistan cant buy a new one's because if they can they would have bought by now and Russia may not be willing to sell to you



Well, don't mind but you did not said so, you said something else. 

And problem is not about buying, issue is that does PAF needs a KJ-2000 type platform or not, based on the threat perception it has identified. If they had wanted it badly, they would have converted 2-4 platform out of the IL-78s we got. 

PAF has not much of a large airspace to defend looking at its width.

What if PAF thinks Erieye and the Chinese ZDK-03 would be enough for our requirements and can fulfill the role identified and assigned, so if that is the case, why would be a heavier, much more expensive, operationally expensive platform be inducted, when lesser expensive platforms can do the job.

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## unicorn148

the airspace may not be long but KJ2000 has a greater range and capabilities i.e you can detect a plane more early when compared to Erieye and the Chinese ZDK-03
converting 2-4 platform of IL-78s when needed will be difficult because it will take 2-3 years for completion and you may not reach on time


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## TaimiKhan

Impossible to argue with your genius arguments.

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## Myth_buster_1

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Everyone wants a piece of chocolate, I get that a lot


I dont like dark coffee chocolates.


> *People are making way too much noise over this front-rear coverage gap* - I bet you dont apply the same logic to insurance, medical or otherwise  most prefer full. How about 3G coverage? Or, any sort of coverage for that matter more is better - why should surveillance be any different?


please spend a little bit more time on google searching ERIEYE system capabilities.. 


> Here is where I want an honest answer from you, imagine you are a fleet commander and presented with a choice between an E-2D and Erieye which one would you pick to watch over your naval assets? The E-2D of course, a no brainer really since the fleet is at sea and threats can approach from multiple axes concurrently, full 360 degree coverage is essential.


PN has already chosen P-3AEW for naval purpose, E-2D is primarily a naval asset while Erieye is perfectly suited for PAF requirement. the only advantage E-2D has over land is the ability to rotate its dome with 2 side lobes to which ever direction it wants. 
2 Erieyes operating 3-400 KM apart can provide more and better coverage then 1 phalcon at almost same price. 


> I suppose we can both agree that 360° coverage is essential for concurrent threats from multiple axes and begin to address the real question at hand: the Erieyes lack of 360° coverage and how it impacts Pakistans defense.


I thought we already went through this. why are you going back and repeating the same rubbish? Erieye has 360degree coverage and the capability to detect anything on its fore and aft and simply position itself to bring that target within its side lobe for better handling. then again.... their is no chance of any IAF fighers sneaking aft or fore of ERIEYE due to PAK-indo latitude border. why cant you comprehend this fact?


> Bases may have been captured assets destroyed and before you know it you are faced with concurrent threats from multiple axes. If news of KJ-2000 acquisition is true then Im glad, for it will serve Pakistan a little bit better than the Erieye and at times of war a little can go a long way.


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## ghazi52

taimikhan said:


> Impossible to argue with your genius arguments.



Well said.
I like it.


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## jawadqamar

taimikhan said:


> PAF is having the multi role platform, tanker/transporter version.
> 
> And if we are gonna get KJ-2000, that would not be from the Chinese fleet, rather we will order a brand new one for ourselves.
> 
> And the reason China has 4 and we can't get KJ-2000 is neither the Chinese have more platforms to make KJ-2000s as their last deal for IL-76s/78s fell apart, nor we can as we don't have sources to buy the IL-76/78 platforms.



Pakistan have already bought 4 IL-78 AAR (converted from IL-76 transporter)from the Ukraine and they can buy more if they want as Ukraine had 160 of them in 2000 and is keeping only around 60 in service as per *Ukraine - Air Force Equipment @ GlobalSecurity.org*


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## dbc

Growler said:


> I dont like dark coffee chocolates.



I love dark chocolate, simple unadulterated 80% cocoa chocolate. 



Growler said:


> 2 Erieyes operating 3-400 KM apart can provide more and better coverage then 1 phalcon at almost same price.



Exactly the point I've been arguing. Erieye's are great, but you don't have enough. You have enough if everything remains unchanged, but not enough for a full fledged war. For the folks who said neither India nor Pakistan will use AWACs/AEW&C for offensive operations - think again.


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## Myth_buster_1

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I love dark chocolate, simple unadulterated 80% cocoa chocolate.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly the point I've been arguing. Erieye's are great, but you don't have enough. You have enough if everything remains unchanged, but not enough for a full fledged war. For the folks who said neither India nor Pakistan will use AWACs/AEW&C for offensive operations - think again.



well honey PAF is gonna have 8 AEWC in just 3 years and 3 for PN. isnt 11 AEWC enough for a country small country like pakistan when compared to india?


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## SBD-3

Hay guys, I saw an Erieye hovering over Faisalabad.......I took pictures and made a vid of it as well..................but unfortunately......Next moment I woke up....


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## Super Falcon

no maaater what we r going to get KC tanker toooo friends


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## illuminatus

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I love dark chocolate, simple unadulterated 80&#37; cocoa chocolate.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly the point I've been arguing. *Erieye's are great, but you don't have enough. You have enough if everything remains unchanged, but not enough for a full fledged war.* For the folks who said neither India nor Pakistan will use AWACs/AEW&C for offensive operations - think again.



That's just utter nonsense. You certainly have no idea what you're talking about. You don't seem to be familiar at all with Pakistani defence deals. Pakistan will have a sizeable fleet of AWACS/AEW&C in the near future. Erieye's are just the tip of the iceberg and will be complemented with Chinese alternatives. The initial numbers are very encouraging and will only increase if/when required. Pakistan has signed a multi-million dollar deal with the Chinese for additional AWACS. Get your facts correct please.


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## illuminatus

taimikhan said:


> Well, don't mind but you did not said so, you said something else.
> 
> And problem is not about buying, issue is that does PAF needs a KJ-2000 type platform or not, based on the threat perception it has identified. If they had wanted it badly, they would have converted 2-4 platform out of the IL-78s we got.
> 
> *PAF has not much of a large airspace to defend looking at its width.*
> 
> What if PAF thinks Erieye and the Chinese ZDK-03 would be enough for our requirements and can fulfill the role identified and assigned, so if that is the case, why would be a heavier, much more expensive, operationally expensive platform be inducted, when lesser expensive platforms can do the job.



The impression that I'm getting about the naysayers whilst reading previous posts is that their denial, negative and hostile attitude stems from a very different set of reasons. This debate isn't rational due to the biased arguments and nonsensical refusals put forward by the naysayers. The fact that the Pakistani airspace is a lot smaller to cover as compared to the Indian airspace should really suffice. Any sane being with a healthy and normal functioning brain would accept this reality instead of seeking refuge in denial.

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## Super Falcon

The primary role of the E-2C Hawkeye aircraft supplied by Northrop Grumman is as an all-weather airborne early-warning aircraft to the naval task force.

From an operating altitude above 25,000ft, the Hawkeye warns the naval task force of approaching air threats and provides threat identification and positional data to fighter aircraft such as F-14 Tomcats. Secondary roles include strike command and control, surveillance, guidance of search and rescue missions and as a relay to extend the range of communications. 

"The E-2C Hawkeye surveillance aircraft supplied by Northrop Grumman is an all-weather airborne
early-warning aircraft."The E-2C became operational in 1973. Block II aircraft, with improved engine and radar, entered service in 1992, with final delivery in 2001. As well as the US Navy, E-2C aircraft are in service with the navies of Egypt, France, Israel, Japan, Singapore and Taiwan. Three ex-Israeli Air Force E-2C have been sold to the Mexican Navy, with the first two delivered in June 2004. Deliveries have totalled more than 180 for the USN and more than 30 for other nations. Six E-2C Hawkeye aircraft are deployed by the US Naval Reserve for drug interdiction and homeland security operations.

The aircraft is operated by a crew of five, with the pilot and co-pilot on the flight deck and the combat information centre officer, air control officer and radar operator stations located in the rear fuselage directly beneath the rotodome.

Carrier operations design
The fuselage is designed for carrier operations and is fitted with a nose-tow catapult attachment for accelerated carrier take-off, an A-frame arrester hook for engagement of the arresting gear and a tail bumper to withstand impact or scraping on the runway.

For storage in the hangar, the wings fold hydraulically to lie flat to the fuselage. The fuselage is of light metal construction, and parts of the tailplane are of composite structure in order to reduce radar signature. 

From May 2004, US Navy Hawkeye 2000 aircraft are being fitted with two Hamilton Sundstrand NP2000 digitally controlled, eight-bladed propellers to replace mechanically controlled, four-bladed propellers. The new propellers provide less vibration and less noise. Initial carrier certification of the new propellers was carried out on USS John F Kennedy in November 2003.

Mission systems
The large 24ft diameter circular antenna radome above the rear fuselage gives the E-2C its distinctive profile. The radome houses the AN/APA-171 antenna supplied by Randtron Systems, which rotates at 5rpm to 6rpm. 

"The large 24ft diameter circular antenna radome above the rear fuselage gives the E-2C its distinctive profile."The Lockheed Martin AN/APS-145 radar is capable of tracking more than 2,000 targets and controlling the interception of 40 hostile targets. One radar sweep covers six million cubic miles. The radar's total radiation aperture control antenna reduces sidelobes and is robust against electronic countermeasures. It is capable of detecting aircraft at ranges greater than 550km. The Lockheed Martin AN/UYQ-70 advanced display system and computer peripherals provide operators with multicolour displays, map overlays, zoom facilities and auxiliary data displays.

In August 2005, Northrop Grumman completed the E-2C mission computer replacement programme, with the provision of faster, more powerful and reliable computers. 

Navigation and communications
A global positioning system and a Northrop Grumman (formerly Litton) AN/ASN-92 CAINS (carrier aircraft inertial navigation system) are the main components of the aircraft's navigation suite. The aircraft is also equipped with the AN/ASN-50 heading and attitude reference system, an AN/ARA-50 UHF automatic direction finder from Rockwell Collins, an AN/ASW-25B automatic carrier landing system and a Honeywell AN/APN-171(V) radar altimeter.

The communications suite includes an AN/ARC-158 UHF data link, an AN/ARQ-34 HF datalink and a joint tactical information distribution system (JTIDS) which provides secure voice and data communications.

Engines
The E-2C was originally fitted with two Allison T56-A-425 turboprop engines, but since the introduction of E-2C group I variants, T56A-427 engines have been fitted. With the new engines, the E-2C can cruise on station for more than four hours, up to 200 miles from base.

"The Hawkeye 2000 made its first operational deployment in 2003 aboard USS Nimitz."Hawkeye 2000
The first of the Hawkeye 2000 (HE2K) standard aircraft, was delivered in October 2001. 24 aircraft are on order for the USN. The Hawkeye 2000 made its first operational deployment in 2003 aboard USS Nimitz (CVN 68) in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Northrop Grumman is also upgrading a number of USN aircraft to Hawkeye 2000 configuration.

One aircraft has been delivered to the French Navy for operation on the Charles de Gaulle carrier and two E-2Cs already delivered have been upgraded to the 2000 standard. In April 2007, France requested the foreign military sale (FMS) of an additional aircraft.

Two Hawkeye 2000 aircraft were delivered to Taiwan in 2004/2005, to join their fleet of four E-2Cs. The aircraft, designated E-2K, entered service in April 2006.

Egypt is upgrading its five E-2C Hawkeye to Hawkeye 2000 standard and has received one additional upgraded E-2C. The first upgraded aircraft was delivered in March 2003 and deliveries are to conclude in late 2008. Egypt requested two additional excess E-2C aircraft in October 2007.

The Japanese Air Self-Defence Force is also upgrading its 13 Hawkeye aircraft, the first was delivered in early 2005. In December 2007, the United Arab Emirates requested the sale of three upgraded E-2C aircraft.

Hawkeye 2000 features a Raytheon mission computer upgrade (MCU), Lockheed Martin advanced control indicator set (ACIS), cooperative engagement capability (CEC), satellite communications, new navigation and flight control systems. The MCU is based on open architecture commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) technology, with increased memory and faster processing.

The CEC consists of processor, data distribution system and antenna and will enable Hawkeye 2000 to perform real-time battle management, fusing and distributing information from sources such as satellite and shipborne radar.

E-2D Advanced Hawkeye
The next-generation, E-2D Advanced Hawkeye has a new radar, theatre missile defence capabilities, multisensor integration and a Northrop Grumman Navigation Systems tactical glass cockpit. Lockheed Martin Maritime Systems & Sensors has developed the AN/APY-9 solid-state, electronically steered UHF radar under the E-2C radar modernisation programme (RMP).

"E-2C Hawkeye became operational in 1973."Northrop Grumman supplies the transmitter, Raytheon the receiver, L-3 Communications Randtron the UHF antenna and BAE Systems CNIR the identification friend or foe (IFF) system. An in-flight refuelling capability will extend mission endurance to between eigth and nine hours.

The Advanced Hawkeye will replace all 75 USN E-2C aircraft. The aircraft began full system development and demonstration (SDD) in August 2003 and, in July 2007, Northrop Grumman was awarded a low-rate production contract for three aircraft for delivery in 2010. The E-2D was rolled out in May 2007 and made its maiden flight in August 2007. Operational assessment was completed in November 2008 followed by transfer to US Navy Patuxent River, Maryland for carrier testing and sea trials. Entry into service is scheduled for 2011



we heared that PN is serious about hawkeye what happened our navy put everything on pending what is the reason


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## dbc

illuminatus said:


> That's just utter nonsense. You certainly have no idea what you're talking about. You don't seem to be familiar at all with Pakistani defence deals. *Pakistan will have a sizeable fleet of AWACS/AEW&C in the near future.* Erieye's are just the tip of the iceberg and will be complemented with Chinese alternatives. The initial numbers are very encouraging and will only increase if/when required. Pakistan has signed a multi-million dollar deal with the Chinese for additional AWACS. Get your facts correct please.



Welcome to the last 5 posts of a very long thread. We were discussing the need for more than the four Erieye's on order until Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman confirmed the acquistion of four more Chinese systems early this month...at which point the argument was pretty much won by me... 



illuminatus said:


> Get your facts correct please.

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## illuminatus

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Welcome to the last 5 posts of a very long thread. We were discussing the need for more than the four Erieye's on order until Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman confirmed the acquistion of four more Chinese systems early this month...at which point the argument was pretty much won by me...



I've read/skimmed most of the posts and not only the last 5. Well, at that moment it was also quite clear that Pakistan was going to order more than just 4 Erieye's. The Chinese systems were always going to complement the Erieye's and we already knew that during the Musharraf era. You didn't win anything.


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## Myth_buster_1

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Welcome to the last 5 posts of a very long thread. We were discussing the need for more than the four Erieye's on order until Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman confirmed the acquistion of four more Chinese systems early this month...at which point the argument was pretty much won by me...



yes you defiantly won the trolling competition.


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## Dazzler

There is a wisdom behind Chinese AWE&C induction as we operate both Chinese as well as western systems. They will come with tech transfer and other goodies so you can jump as many times you want friend but we will have the last laugh.

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## wangrong

please see this Radar

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## fatman17

*PAF SAAB 2000s*

Serial.....C/N.....Previous Identity..........Status

J-019....019.....ex SE-019, F-GMVB.....delivered 29/9/09 (non-AEW&C)
J-025....025.....ex SE-025, LV-SBC......Still with Saab
J-040....040.....ex SE-040, F-GMVE.....Still with Saab
J-045....045.....ex SE-045, LV-SBW.....Delivered 8/12/09
J-049....049.....ex SE-049, F-GMVG.....Still with Saab

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## Arsalan

*J-019....019.....ex SE-019, F-GMVB.....delivered 29/9/09 (non-AEW&C)*






*J-045....045.....ex SE-045, LV-SBW.....Delivered 8/12/09*

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## ice_man

ok boys here is a question did our navy confirm any AEW systems for itself yet? if yet can someone provide a link a source of the confirmation! 

p.s. please don't write my uncle said or someone i know said or the inside news is! because hey at the end of the day its facts that matter not your wishes or the so called inside news!


----------



## Tomahawk

Pardon if it is already posted.
Going through an interview of ACM Rao Qamar Suleman; ACM told about the delivery of Chinese AEW&C, *"The first of these is due to arrive in 2011 and the remaining three will be delivered in 2012".*

PAF to complete induction of four Ilyushin Il-78 aircraft by 2010, says Rao. - Free Online Library


----------



## Mani2020

ice_man said:


> ok boys here is a question did our navy confirm any AEW systems for itself yet? if yet can someone provide a link a source of the confirmation!
> 
> PAF first orderd 7 Saab erieye 2 were later cancelled and the deal was reduced to 5 (1 no awac + 4 awac) some say that it was due to finacial constraints but according to sources it was due to the fact that navy insisted for E-2 Hawkeye on P-3c platform as navy was operating P-3 already so easy to deal with them at less cos instead of going for multiple platforms E-2 are due to deliverd.No one knows more than this
> 
> I m too confuse that PN can easily have fitted Erieye Radar on P-3c then why an older less capable E-2 hawkeye .the answer may be PAK forces want to have three different systems to counter Phalcons threat.who knows anyhow navy deals are rather are having more controvercies now a days like U submarine deal


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## Arsalan

Navy might only get there hands onto some AWE&C systems once PAF get the chines AWACS as they will come with TOT and then PN may get benifitted form it...

regards!


----------



## DMLA

Do you have any information on the chinese AWACS wrt the radar band? 

erieye seems to be operating in E/F band (edit: It seems I was wrong...open source information puts it at S band). Phalcon operates in the L band. It is believed that KJ-2000 also operates in the L-band. Maybe PAF is looking to have platforms in different bands to not only have wider spectrum/ coverage which may provide better early warning against wider array of air threats. This will help in a complementary fashion as these bands have their own advantages & limitations. 

I would appreciate if members could provide me with bands for KJ-200 as well.


----------



## Dazzler

As far as i know, off all the AWACS radars, very minor technicalities are leaked all over the world especially in case of modern ones as the publicized figures are not always the real ones. AWACS is a sensitive and expensive system. My advice is not believe everything you read on internet forums. I can tell you one thing that most modern AWACS systems are very capable, complex and effective deterrents that they will provide to their users.


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## DANGER-ZONE

high resolution wallpaper.


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## Arsalan

the AWE&C will most likely be stationed at Sargodha base,, am i right??

regards!


----------



## TaimiKhan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the AWE&C will most likely be stationed at Sargodha base,, am i right??
> 
> regards!



The Saab Erieye for the time being is at kamra. If we look at Pakistan's map, kamra and jacoabad are the perfect points to station one Sqd each at these bases as they will provide full coverage towards Indian border and are also deep enough for any early warning of an incoming strike towards these bases and others. Sarghoda would be too close to the Indian border and they being our force multipliers and critical assets need better and deep protection.


----------



## S.U.R.B.

Just curious which jet fighters will be guarding our SAAB2000 in case of a war scenario?
THANX!!


----------



## Creder

Hi i know this has been discussed before and it was established that pakistan is going after the KJ-200 system rather than the 2000, still DBC mentioned a report in the newspaper that says pakistan will be opting for the 2000

Can anyone please clarify with an authentic source ?


----------



## Mani2020

When we are recieving our 2nd saab-2000, i mean i know that we will recieve all 3 of them in 2010 but anyone knows the date or month for the delivery of 2nd saab-2000 erieye?


----------



## Arsalan

taimikhan said:


> The Saab Erieye for the time being is at kamra. If we look at Pakistan's map, kamra and jacoabad are the perfect points to station one Sqd each at these bases as they will provide full coverage towards Indian border and are also deep enough for any early warning of an incoming strike towards these bases and others. Sarghoda would be too close to the Indian border and they being our force multipliers and critical assets need better and deep protection.



well that is why i floated this question..
actually one of my friends at Sargodha Airbase told me that there are some old electronic warfare planes already stationed at Sargodha,, i cannot exactaly remember what that plane was but it was some old aircraft with some electronic suites like jammers, EW kits onboard. this gave me an idea that perhaps the AWE&C would also go there but i was concerned with Sargodha lying so close to the boder!!
anyhow the current plane is at Kamra, we all know that but it is not stationed there permantly but is only there for testing and evaluation plus training puropose. no Squadron has been eastablished for it at Kamra!

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

well frimeds i am soory as i could not contact that person that told me about the already present some sort of old EW plane. can anyone here post something regarding that??

regards!


----------



## notorious_eagle

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well that is why i floated this question..
> actually one of my friends at Sargodha Airbase told me that there are some old electronic warfare planes already stationed at Sargodha,, *i cannot exactaly remember what that plane was but it was some old aircraft with some electronic suites like jammers, EW kits onboard. *this gave me an idea that perhaps the AWE&C would also go there but i was concerned with Sargodha lying so close to the boder!!
> anyhow the current plane is at Kamra, we all know that but it is not stationed there permantly but is only there for testing and evaluation plus training puropose. no Squadron has been eastablished for it at Kamra!
> 
> regards!



Your talking about D20 Falcons, the airframe for the Aircraft might be old but certinely not the Electronics that this Aircraft carries.


----------



## Arsalan

notorious_eagle said:


> Your talking about D20 Falcons, the airframe for the Aircraft might be old but certinely not the Electronics that this Aircraft carries.



yes bro i guess you got it sorted it for me. thanks!actually it was not mentiooned anywhere on net but i will try to contact my source and bring in some info regarding what it actually is cappable of!
thanks again

regards!


----------



## Peregrine

Hi,
Can any one kindly tell from where i can get Saab 2000 Erieye model in Pakistan, if any one knows please let me know, Thanks


----------



## ice_man

notorious_eagle said:


> Your talking about D20 Falcons, the airframe for the Aircraft might be old but certinely not the Electronics that this Aircraft carries.



hi can you please tell me more about the D20 FALCON? thanks in advance bro!!


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## notorious_eagle

ice_man said:


> hi can you please tell me more about the D20 FALCON? thanks in advance bro!!



http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/15161-paf-operations.html#post208592

Read X Man's Posts on this page.

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## Myth_buster_1

Peregrine said:


> Hi,
> Can any one kindly tell from where i can get Saab 2000 Erieye model in Pakistan, if any one knows please let me know, Thanks



Last time i bought a model in pak was in karachi air force museum. Im not sure about Islamabad, i have searched every corner in islamabad but couldnt find it. heck i am still looking for a hobby shop.


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## Arsalan

Growler said:


> Last time i bought a model in pak was in karachi air force museum. Im not sure about Islamabad, i have searched every corner in islamabad but couldnt find it. heck i am still looking for a hobby shop.



may be look for it somewhere in chaklala. there recruitment center is a good place to start with... well if you can not buy it from there atleast you can steal one  
otherwise you may have to wait till 7 Sep exhibation!!

regards!


----------



## air marshal

*"Fuel Time"*

The painting depicts a pair of Mirages of Pakistan Airforce refuels from a newly inducted Il-78 Midas.

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## ANG

Hi, according to this post Sweden has banned future weapons exports to Pakistan. I also think Pakistan should have bought the ERIEYE on the Embraer jet plan, rather than the SAAB 2000 turboprop. Thanks!

Swedish Arms Exports Rose 7 Percent in 2009 - Defense News

Swedish Arms Exports Rose 7 Percent in 2009
By GERARD O'DWYER 
Published: 10 Mar 2010 14:13 Print | EmailHELSINKI - Sweden's weapon exports rose 7 percent compared with 2008 to $1.9 billion in 2009, the Inspektionen for Strategiska Produkter (ISP), the country's state agency for nonproliferation and export controls, said.

The ISP's report, released on March 8, rates the 7 percent increase as the highest annual percentage growth since the organization began monitoring weapon exports in 1996. The ISP controls the export of equipment, including dual civilian and military products and systems.


The leading five export destinations in 2009 were the Netherlands, $352 million; South Africa, $240 million; Pakistan, $197 million; Finland, $140 million; and Britain, $127 million.

The report noted that the majority of Sweden's exports in 2009 went to markets in the European Union, as well as to the country's "established partners," including the United States and South Africa. Together, these accounted for 80 percent of all exports. 

Weapon exports to other markets, including Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Thailand, continued in 2009, ISP said. Sweden banned new arms sales to Pakistan in 2007, but continues to fulfill contract obligations relating to Erieye, said Andreas Ekman, the ISP's director general.

"We continue to honor contracts agreed before 2007 until they run out," said Ekman.

Significant exports included the sale of the Combat Vehicle 90 to the Netherlands and the JAS 39 Gripen aircraft to South Africa. A total of 53 percent of Sweden's weapon exports were sold to European countries, including EU members and Norway and Switzerland.

Apart from the United States and South Africa, the 27 percent of weapons exports sold to established partners outside the European Union included Australia, Canada, South Korea and Singapore. 

Exports constituting 20 percent of the total for 2009 were sold to some 20 other countries, including Pakistan, $197 million; India, $126 million; Malaysia, $18 million; Thailand, $11.4 million; and the United Arab Emirates, $9 million.


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## manglasiva

so ur point ????


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

ANG said:


> Hi, according to this post Sweden has banned future weapons exports to Pakistan. I also think Pakistan should have bought the ERIEYE on the Embraer jet plan, rather than the SAAB 2000 turboprop. Thanks!
> 
> Swedish Arms Exports Rose 7 Percent in 2009 - Defense News
> 
> Swedish Arms Exports Rose 7 Percent in 2009
> By GERARD O'DWYER
> Published: 10 Mar 2010 14:13 Print | EmailHELSINKI - Sweden's weapon exports rose 7 percent compared with 2008 to $1.9 billion in 2009, the Inspektionen for Strategiska Produkter (ISP), the country's state agency for nonproliferation and export controls, said.
> 
> The ISP's report, released on March 8, rates the 7 percent increase as the highest annual percentage growth since the organization began monitoring weapon exports in 1996. The ISP controls the export of equipment, including dual civilian and military products and systems.
> 
> 
> The leading five export destinations in 2009 were the Netherlands, $352 million; South Africa, $240 million; Pakistan, $197 million; Finland, $140 million; and Britain, $127 million.
> 
> The report noted that the majority of Sweden's exports in 2009 went to markets in the European Union, as well as to the country's "established partners," including the United States and South Africa. Together, these accounted for 80 percent of all exports.
> 
> Weapon exports to other markets, including Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Thailand, continued in 2009, ISP said. Sweden banned new arms sales to Pakistan in 2007, but continues to fulfill contract obligations relating to Erieye, said Andreas Ekman, the ISP's director general.
> 
> "We continue to honor contracts agreed before 2007 until they run out," said Ekman.
> 
> Significant exports included the sale of the Combat Vehicle 90 to the Netherlands and the JAS 39 Gripen aircraft to South Africa. A total of 53 percent of Sweden's weapon exports were sold to European countries, including EU members and Norway and Switzerland.
> 
> Apart from the United States and South Africa, the 27 percent of weapons exports sold to established partners outside the European Union included Australia, Canada, South Korea and Singapore.
> 
> Exports constituting 20 percent of the total for 2009 were sold to some 20 other countries, including Pakistan, $197 million; India, $126 million; Malaysia, $18 million; Thailand, $11.4 million; and the United Arab Emirates, $9 million.




Pakistan is not looking for anything else after SAAB awacs @ present so I think the author is a bit optomistic about things 

We are just waiting for our 6 SAAB Erie Eye AWACS 

Thank you Sweeden

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## ice_man

thank god we never went for GRIPPEN or we would have AGAIN faced the same problem as the F16s in the 90s! which makes me believe that china is the only reliable partner! funny how BIAS this world is arming a far bigger nation like india is going to destabilize the whole subcontinent but hey its all good when the order is big!!

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## Mani2020

but if they have banned future sales thn what about the spare parts required in near future for ERIEYE?


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## Imran Khan

qes is what is there problim to ban sales us we have democrasy no nuclear test nothing any reason so why the hell ban?.


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## bc040400065

bad thing to happen. this ban can be negative interms of spare parts in future but it shows again that we just cannot trust west. we should go for more indeginious development and get more help from china. that is why im against getting new f16 from USA, it would not help our cause and worse then that, these new F16 are to be based in Jacobabad Shahbaz airbase which is already under american use for last 8 years so forget these new F16 as well they will be under american control. also buying P3 orion and hawkeye2000 awacs also based on orion P3 is a big big mistake. We should have gone for one single Awacs plateform for Navy and Airforce such as we r now buying the chinese ZDK awacs. Only ordering 4 from china and also going for Erieye and hawkeye , what the hell we will do for their maintenance and all the bull **** restriction that come with them. We should have gone for 10 chinese ZDK Awacs in a single order for both NAvy and Airforce.


----------



## manglasiva

imran khan said:


> qes is what is there problim to ban sales us we have democrasy no nuclear test nothing any reason so why the hell ban?.



maybe ur close proximity to China.


----------



## Dazzler

The world has tried every trick in their bag to stop China from progressing in every domain but it seems that all their efforts are going down the drain. Their actions against China have proven to be counter productive. As i see it in near future, China will only grow stronger and stronger and this is what Pakistan will benefit from as we are time tested friends.

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## Peregrine

Hi, 
If Sweden has put this ban on Pakistan because of China then it's one hell of a stupid move, because China is an emerging super power and countries like Sweden must learn a thing or two from French, anyways their loss  But has Sweden given any justification for such move? I am sure Pakistani Government would have raised this question as well.


----------



## FreekiN

They banned Minaretes of Mosques, published MORE prophet cartoons, and now started banning arms sales to Muslim countries?

Coincidence? lol


----------



## Luftwaffe

misunderstanding....Restrictions of offensive weapons only and that only in the case of Pakistan..example of Gripen participation in MRCA..


----------



## Sanchez

manglasiva said:


> maybe ur close proximity to China.



Can you Indians live your life without bringing in China? Pakistan has never been denied anything because of China. Whf are you talking about?

[Mod Edit]


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## NWO

luftwaffe said:


> misunderstanding....Restrictions of offensive weapons only and that only in the case of Pakistan..example of Gripen participation in MRCA..


Why only supply India? Pakistan is the one that needs it more badly. Its kind of like saying I'm only going to sell my product to the rich Jews, and leave the poor Buddhists out of it.


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## Luftwaffe

NWO...that answer is with Swedes..
even if Pakistan buys gripen ng with sanctions we would not be getting any spare parts..where as in the case of F-16s we can get them under the table..


----------



## Mani2020

may b coz of MR.20% black accounts


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## Mani2020

but serioulsy i thnk thos who were favouring the f-16 deal and were asking for "why not grippen" and " why jf-17( according to them a useless aircraft)" has got their answer


----------



## mshoaib61



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## DANGER-ZONE

mshoaib61 said:


>



hey thats my work,i made this picture.when i posted it earlier no body noticed it..


----------



## PakiPashtun

mshoaib61 said:


>



nice job.,...

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Are we going to get our awacs in 2010 all 4 of them ?


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## Mani2020

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Are we going to get our awacs in 2010 all 4 of them ?



Yup according to air chief marshal


----------



## mughaljee

^ with TOT ?


----------



## Mani2020

mughaljee said:


> ^ with TOT ?



dun thnk so


----------



## Myth_buster_1

danger-zone said:


> hey thats my work,i made this picture.when i posted it earlier no body noticed it..



is it a PS? or is it the 2nd erieye under testing in Sweden?


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Growler said:


> is it a PS? or is it the 2nd erieye under testing in Sweden?



yup it is PS.n i did it.


----------



## leoberetta

jaman_thakkar said:


> well what to prove???PHALCON IS THE WORLDS MOST ADVANCED AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING SYSTEM...even more advanced than NATO's E-3 C sentry which uses machanically rotating antenna(rotodome) so let alone eyrie...
> 
> 
> this link will prove that phalcon is the worlds most advanced awacs.(read carefully)
> 
> 
> 
> IAI Phalcon 707



I agree with you...IAI phalcons are strategic airborne surveillance platforms for large airforces to cover large areas and its more advanced or on par with american sentrys..where as the swedish eryies r also good platform but lack the radar tracking range, jamming capabilities and other surveilance capabilities provided by Phalcons..eryies are meant for small airforces for tactical surveilance...

leorules


----------



## ice_man

leoberetta said:


> I agree with you...IAI phalcons are strategic airborne surveillance platforms for large airforces to cover large areas and its more advanced or on par with american sentrys..where as the swedish eryies r also good platform but lack the radar tracking range, jamming capabilities and other surveilance capabilities provided by Phalcons..eryies are meant for small airforces for tactical surveilance...
> 
> leorules



OH BOY! a nw Bharat rakshak boy!


----------



## Peregrine

Hi,
woo last time i checked Israeli's acquire American technology to erect their own platforms and here this guy is saying that Israeli AWACS are superior to American, i guess what ever India acquires is always superior no matter what


----------



## nwmalik

just keep listening and enjoy


----------



## Mani2020

leoberetta said:


> I agree with you...IAI phalcons are strategic airborne surveillance platforms for large airforces to cover large areas and its more advanced or on par with american sentrys..where as the swedish eryies r also good platform but lack the radar tracking range, jamming capabilities and other surveilance capabilities provided by Phalcons..eryies are meant for small airforces for tactical surveilance...
> 
> leorules



oh really mr fanboy .....i appreciate ur effort to provide a really biased analysis ...n the tym u have spent on dreaming ...


----------



## sancho

Peregrine said:


> Hi,
> woo last time i checked Israeli's acquire American technology to erect their own platforms and here this guy is saying that Israeli AWACS are superior to American, i guess what ever India acquires is always superior no matter what


It wouldn't be the first time that Israeli techs proved to be superior to US techs, that's also why many US defense companies made co-developments with Elta, Rafael, Elbit...
Why do you think Singapore went from E-2 AWACS to G550 Phalcon AWACS? 
One of the main reasons that makes a difference at AWACS aircrafts is the platform itself, because it decides what kind of radar dome could be used, how many equipment and operators can be carried, how big the powerplant for the radar could be. And here obviously counts, the larger the better. That's why many major countries uses Boeing 707, 767 or now 737 as platforms for their main AWACS, just like Russia, China and India uses the IL 76/A50 platform for their main AWACS and smaller versions like E2, Y8, or Saab Erieyes in addition only.
For Pakistan with a smaller size and only one main borderline to keep an eye on, smaller AWACS like Erieye, or Y8 will be sufficiant enough, for China, or India it won't.

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## owais.usmani

*Saab 2000 erieye damaged during testing​*

** the right propellar was damaged during testing*


*(google translation):*


In a test of the radar was an aircraft of type Saab 2000 in the rolling of the hangar. The incident has now been notified to the Work Environment Authority.

It was 22 January that the test was conducted at one of Saab's aircraft carrier plates in Linköping. Engineers would carry out an operation run by the radar system in a Saab 2000. Ahead of the aircraft was an external wagon that was connected to the antenna on the aircraft's ceiling. A tool was placed on the council instead to simulate the aircraft was in the air.

At the moment hangar plate was very slippery and icy and technicians who performed the test, because the airplane on the part of the plate, which was less than icy.
Kanade forward

After five minutes of driving impairment increased engine pådraget which meant that the aircraft slowly began to channel forward. Engineers had no way to prevent it. The result was that the refrigerator came in in the right engine's propeller. Refrigerator fought with tremendous force into pieces and propeller blades flung 100 meters away. No person was hurt.
Repaired

Saab has now reported the incident to the Work Environment Authority. The notification Saab writes that the cause of the incident was to hang the plate was not enough icing.

- We are doing an investigation with the authorities. *The plane had some injuries and is being repaired. But this will not affect delivery to the customer, "says Anna Lindh, the Saab's press service.*

What is the customer does not want to say Saab.

Fredrik Quist



Linköping - Nyheter - Corren.se - Östergötlands största nyhetssajt


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

^^^^ keeping my finger cross that it won't be for Pakistan.


----------



## owais.usmani

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> ^^^^ keeping my finger cross that it won't be for Pakistan.



Pakistan is the only customer of *SAAB 2000* Erieye.


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

owais.usmani said:


> Pakistan is the only customer of *SAAB 2000* Erieye.



I hope it will fixed as new

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

No problem ..Saab will fix it


----------



## TaimiKhan

owais.usmani said:


> Pakistan is the only customer of *SAAB 2000* Erieye.



PAF is the only military customer of Saab 2000 aircraft, while there are 50+ Saab 2000 in civilian use by different airline companies. 

And we are not the only operator of Erieye radar system, such systems are placed on other aerial platform and being used by Sweden itself, Brzail, Mexico, Greece, Thailand with its Gripens and recently ordered by UAE also.


----------



## owais.usmani

TaimiKhan said:


> PAF is the only military customer of Saab 2000 aircraft, while there are 50+ Saab 2000 in civilian use by different airline companies.
> 
> And we are not the only operator of Erieye radar system, such systems are placed on other aerial platform and being used by Sweden itself, Brzail, Mexico, Greece, Thailand with its Gripens and recently ordered by UAE also.



Sir this is what I mentioned. There are many civilian customers of SAAB 2000 and military customers of the Erieye system, *but PAF is the only customer of SAAB 2000 Erieye AEW&C.* The article above mentions damage done to a *SAAB 2000 Erieye.* Perhaps it was the second erieye plane due to be delivered to PAF later this year.

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## Peregrine

Hi,
Why didn't Pakistan opt for Embraer? Its faster than SAAB-2000


----------



## Mani2020

What if PAF dun wana to get that damaged one (even after repairing) and want to replace it with another saab-2000 coz after all its not PAF mistake ,its the mistake committed by the SAAB which resulted in damaging the aircraft


----------



## sancho

owais.usmani said:


> Saab 2000 erieye damaged during testing
> 
> 
> ** the right propellar was damaged during testing*
> 
> 
> *(google translation):*...



If only one of the propellars was damaged, it shouldn't be a big deal, the radar arrays, or other parts of the airframe itself would be more problematic.

Out of interest, PAF already inducted the first Erieye right? Where will it be stationed and how far is it away from the border?


----------



## Myth_buster_1

sancho said:


> If only one of the propellars was damaged, it shouldn't be a big deal, the radar arrays, or other parts of the airframe itself would be more problematic.
> 
> Out of interest, PAF already inducted the first Erieye right? Where will it be stationed and how far is it away from the border?



at the moment it is based in chaklala few miles away from islamabad and i have seen it quite a few times.

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## Bull

Things are getting inresting as India have started negotiations for more 9 awacs apart from the three already contracted. ( of which 2 have been delivered).

This would make the total to 9+3, 12.

And also the IsAF heavily modified Gulfstream entil jet also has been offered to India.

DRDO is also developing a similar version.

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## Donatello

Bull said:


> Things are getting inresting as India have started negotiations for more 9 awacs apart from the three already contracted. ( of which 2 have been delivered).
> 
> This would make the total to 9+3, 12.
> 
> And also the IsAF heavily modified Gulfstream entil jet also has been offered to India.
> 
> DRDO is also developing a similar version.





Well, look at the airspace and sea space they have to cover, they don't have luxury like Pakistan of small East-West and North-South size. Besides Pakistan already has 4 awacs on order plus 4 more Chinese ones. I think even 12 Awacs are too less for India, as their ambitious head of military claims the real enemy is not Pakistan but China in future regional battles.

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## Bull

penumbra said:


> Well, look at the airspace and sea space they have to cover, they don't have luxury like Pakistan of small East-West and North-South size. Besides Pakistan already has 4 awacs on order plus 4 more Chinese ones. I think even 12 Awacs are too less for India, as their ambitious head of military claims the real enemy is not Pakistan but China in future regional battles.



4+4 for PAF on order. Are you sure?

12 Phalcons from Isreal/Russia would be complimented by G55 AWACs on offer from Israel and DRDO's on development AWACS.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Bull said:


> 4+4 for PAF on order. Are you sure?
> 
> 12 Phalcons from Isreal/Russia would be complimented by G55 AWACs on offer from Israel and DRDO's on development AWACS.



yup hes sure,4 from Sweden and 4 from china.
and bro 4 Chinese could be similar to Russian's rotating disc radar.much similar to Phalcon.u dont need to be worry


----------



## Bull

danger-zone said:


> yup hes sure,4 from Sweden and 4 from china.
> and bro 4 Chinese could be similar to Russian's rotating disc radar.much similar to Phalcon.u dont need to be worry



Phalcon isnt Russian.

And apart from 4 SAAB's can you confirm what are the others in order. I did go back a few pages but couldnt get a definite answer.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Bull said:


> Phalcon isnt Russian.
> 
> And apart from 4 SAAB's can you confirm what are the others in order. I did go back a few pages but couldnt get a definite answer.



ya i know Phalcon isnt Russian,its IAI product.
it could be this.

*or this.(KLJ-200)*


t*here were rumors that PAF also looking for this BEAST.(KLJ-2000)*





but its chances are less....then the previous ones.


----------



## notorious_eagle

sancho said:


> If only one of the propellars was damaged, it shouldn't be a big deal, the radar arrays, or other parts of the airframe itself would be more problematic.
> 
> *Out of interest, PAF already inducted the first Erieye right? Where will it be stationed and how far is it away from the border*?



Right now its officially not inducted as the crew are still training and its undergoing testing. In my opinion it will be based in Shahbaz Airbase, this is the same airbase where Block 52's will also be based. It sounds realistic because they are renovating the Airbase in a major way, i passed through the airbase and there were like hundreds of workers and some very heavy machinery present there.

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## sancho

danger-zone said:


> yup hes sure,4 from Sweden and 4 from china.
> and bro 4 Chinese could be similar to Russian's rotating disc radar.much similar to Phalcon.u dont need to be worry


No because those that are on offer from China are are KJ 200 on the Y8 platform, KJ 2000, that uses the same A50 platform like IAF Phalcon AWACS is only available from Russia. Btw, the older versions had rotating radar dome, the actual versions have 3 radar arrays positioned in a triangle form:


----------



## wangrong

new pic

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## Mani2020




----------



## Tomahawk

*Saab Erieye 2000 External & Internal Arrangement:*


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

ice_man said:


> OH BOY! a nw Bharat rakshak boy!



Looks like you have AWAC's sensors to sport Bharat Rakshak


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## ice_man

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Looks like you have AWAC's sensors to sport Bharat Rakshak



kiya karein bro i am *ALLERGIC* to Bull S-h-*-T & Bharat rakshak!


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## kursed

Second SAAB 2000 ERIEYE AWE&C aircraft just landed in Pakistan.

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## Mani2020

kursed said:


> Second SAAB 2000 ERIEYE AWE&C aircraft just landed in Pakistan.



who told u , mean any source


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## kursed

It's all over the news channels.


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## Mani2020

kursed said:


> It's all over the news channels.



thx man for ur info


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## Dazzler

It is not confirmed folks but i have heard that Pakistan is going for the DISH variant instead of Erieye like KJ-200 one. It is still not confirmed though but this was the reason why DISH equipped variant came to Pakistan. It was thoroughly tested and found a bit short in some unspecified fields. PAF sent technicians along with recommendations for improvement in radar and equipment. I have fingers crossed as work is almost complete.

One thing i must mention is that KJ-2000 is a very robust system and was also not offered because it is considered too advanced by Chinese friends. Many of its techs are shared in what is called as ZDK-03 for us.

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## S.U.R.B.

what happened to the one that had got some damage during high mark 2010?


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## WAQAS119

self deleted


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## air marshal




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## razgriz19

the only problem with our saab awacs is that the plane is atleast 10-12 years old! its not a new plane....or is it?


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## Adios Amigo



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## Peregrine

razgriz19 said:


> the only problem with our saab awacs is that the plane is atleast 10-12 years old! its not a new plane....or is it?


Hi
Yup i also heard that they are second hand, though must have been refurbished before induction in PAF


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Thank you sweeden


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## Mani2020

S.U.R.B. said:


> what happened to the one that had got some damage during high mark 2010?



The one with the PAF was not damaged rather the second Saab-2000 Erieye which was undergoing flying trials and tests in Sweden was the one which got damaged


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## araz

razgriz19 said:


> the only problem with our saab awacs is that the plane is atleast 10-12 years old! its not a new plane....or is it?



These former airliners were bought back from their respective airlines by Saab, and fully refurbished and brought back to zero life. They might be old going by their "Birthday" but they are not old from their working point of view.Also remember that Boeing707s are nearly sixty yrs old and still flying as airlines and as tankers.
Araz

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## blain2

razgriz19 said:


> the only problem with our saab awacs is that the plane is atleast 10-12 years old! its not a new plane....or is it?



Its as good as a new plane. The airframe has been overhauled with new wings and has been considerably upgraded. It has new engines, new avionics etc. etc. In all honesty, only the shell (airframe) is old (but strengthened to carry additional weight for the dorsal radar mount).

Its as good as brand new.

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## blain2

S.U.R.B. said:


> what happened to the one that had got some damage during high mark 2010?



There was some confusion about this. The Saab 2000 that got damaged was not a PAF one and it was not flying in Pakistan when the damage occurred.


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## Super Falcon

thanx swdeen for help


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## raveolution

Just a question.... Why did Sweden ban all future arms exports to Pakistan? Any informative answers would be appreciated. Thanks


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## DESERT FIGHTER

raveo sweden had ban on arm sales to Pakistan in the past due to our atomic testings....at a time u were enjoying ur liberties.
But now there is no ban on arm sales to Pakistan by sweden...
Anyways i see our favourite buddy Mark sien here?
How r u mark?any good news on Pakistans recent or future procurements will be appreciated sir?thanks in advance


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## S.U.R.B.




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## ice_man

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> raveo sweden had ban on arm sales to Pakistan in the past due to our atomoc testings....at a time u were enjoying ur liberties.
> But now there is no ban on arm sales to Pakistan by sweden...
> Anyways i see our favourite buddy Mark sien here?
> How r u mark?any good news on Pakistans recent or future procurements will be appreciated sir?thanks in advance



no currently SWEDEN has a ban on export of military hardware to pakistan it is only honoring its previous contract of the SAAB EREIYE!


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## raveolution

ice_man said:


> no currently SWEDEN has a ban on export of military hardware to pakistan it is only honoring its previous contract of the SAAB EREIYE!



Exactly... That's what i thought had happened. Any idea why did they do so? How strange is it to honour a multi-million dollar Erieye deal and then ban future sales. This would affect any chances of getting the Gripen as well if PAF were to consider it in the future.


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## Sapper

raveolution said:


> Exactly... That's what i thought had happened. Any idea why did they do so? How strange is it to honour a multi-million dollar Erieye deal and then ban future sales. This would affect any chances of getting the Gripen as well if PAF were to consider it in the future.



Please site source where it says sweden is banning arms sales to Pakistan.

I think this is just a hearsay. Although i am not sure myself ... need evidence to confirm.

Regards,
Sapper


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## araz

raveolution said:


> Exactly... That's what i thought had happened. Any idea why did they do so? How strange is it to honour a multi-million dollar Erieye deal and then ban future sales. This would affect any chances of getting the Gripen as well if PAF were to consider it in the future.



Their logic atleast for the gripen was that Indo Pak is a region of conflict.They can sell Erieye as it is a defensive weapon, but will not sell offensive weapons to pakistan. Also, by law if they have supplied weapons to you they will extend after sales and spares service irrespective of the regional situation.This was the reason why I commented on the duplicity of the Swedes in denying one country what they want to sell to thier neighbours.
Araz


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## SekrutYakhni

It is not a duplicity at all. It is up to the manufacturer to decide. Pakistan should start investing in R & D like Swedes or the Americans did. It is our job to fulfill the defence requirements by investing in research. 
Why cannot we persuade them to help us?
What are we lagging?

Moreover, if they are not interested than we should find alternatives. The best alternative is to produce goods locally.


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## araz

saad445566 said:


> It is not a duplicity at all. It is up to the manufacturer to decide. Pakistan should start investing in R & D like Swedes or the Americans did. It is our job to fulfill the defence requirements by investing in research.
> Why cannot we persuade them to help us?
> What are we lagging?
> 
> Moreover, if they are not interested than we should find alternatives. The best alternative is to produce goods locally.



It is duplicity if you qoute one reason to one country and then sell to its neighbour in contravention to the same. This relates to the swedish Constitution which was the reason for my comment.
We are fulfilling our defence needs and the thunder is a response to that very same need.
We are lacking everything from basic infrastructure to ethos to finances. I agree with the sentiment behind your post but from the practical point of view, it is unsound. Even Sweden does not possess all the industrial know how that has gone into the gripen and has had to rely on other vendors for it.it is purely an economical choice. 
Araz


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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2010 


Jane's Defence Weekly 

*Pakistan takes delivery of second Erieye AEW&C aircraft*

Gareth Jennings Jane's Aviation Desk Editor - London

Pakistan has taken delivery of its second Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, the company announced on 26 April. 

According to Saab, the aircraft will now undergo final tests in Pakistan, which mainly will focus on verifying the Ericsson (now part of Saab) PS-890 Erieye radar system, which is fitted to the aircraft as a dorsal 'plank' antenna. 

The Erieye features an electronic-warfare suite that includes electronic support, threat-warning and countermeasures dispensing subsystems, an identification friend-or-foe subsystem, command-and-control (C2) capabilities and a ground-based mission trainer. 

The first of four aircraft was handed over to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on 8 December 2009 during a formal ceremony at PAF Kamra. The Erieye aircraft will be operated by 3 Squadron based at Chaklala in the northeast of the country. 

A delivery schedule for the remaining two aircraft has not yet been announced.

The contract to purchase the Erieye aircraft was first signed in October 2005 but suspended following the earthquake in Pakistan. The contract was finalised in June 2006, with the first aircraft being rolled out from Saab's facility in Link&#246;ping, Sweden, on 27 March 2008. 

The Erieye will data-link with the PAF's Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcons but not with its Dassault Mirage fleet. In January 2009 Pakistan decided to procure four Chinese-built Shaanxi Y-8 AEW&C aircraft to complement its Erieye order. 

Not yet delivered, these aircraft, which are based on the Ukrainian-built Antonov An-12 'Cub', are intended to be compatible with Chinese-built aircraft in the PAF's inventory, such as the PAC/CAC JF-17 Thunder, CAC F-7 and NAMC A-5-III 'Fantan' fighters. 


_so the question remains.....how will the mirage fleet be data linked?_

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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> ASIA PACIFIC
> Date Posted: 28-Apr-2010
> 
> 
> Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> *Pakistan takes delivery of second Erieye AEW&C aircraft*
> 
> Gareth Jennings Jane's Aviation Desk Editor - London
> 
> 
> _*so the question remains.....how will the mirage fleet be data linked?*_



Plz read the interview of the Ex-CAS, who said there are for now no plans to data link the mirages to the AEW&Cs. 

Thus it seems, the JF-17s, F-16s, FC-20s would be having data links, but not the Mirages as they are gonna be retired as newer platforms get inducted.


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## Karakoram8 Eagle

hey all i know is that this SAAB 2000 ERIEYE is going to work it will work inshallah PAKISTAN ZINDABAD


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## Karakoram8 Eagle

The Saab 2000 MPA is a highly capable, long-range Maritime Patrol Aircraft.
It provides a dedicated platform for maritime patrol missions.
The Saab 2000 MPA is equally suited to working in close co-operation with the
Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C or on stand-alone patrol missions.
Features:
 High quality 360° maritime surveillance radar
 to be defined
 High quality Electro-Optical Sensor
 to be defined
 Mission System
 Automatic Identification System (AIS)
 Electronic Support Measures (ESM)
 Self Protection System (SPS)
 SATCOM and data link solutions
 Platform commonality with other members of
the Saab 2000 airborne surveillance family.
APPLICATIONS:
 Tasked identification of maritime targets
 Maritime Surveillance and Reconnaissance
(MSAR)
 Maritime border security
 Counter smuggling surveillance
 Search and Rescue (SAR)
 Illegal immigration control
 Fisheries inspection and management
 Oil slick investigation.
GOOD ONE I THINK


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## blain2

fatman17 said:


> ASIA PACIFIC
> Date Posted: 28-Apr-2010
> 
> 
> Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> *Pakistan takes delivery of second Erieye AEW&C aircraft*
> 
> Gareth Jennings Jane's Aviation Desk Editor - London
> 
> Pakistan has taken delivery of its second Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, the company announced on 26 April.
> 
> According to Saab, the aircraft will now undergo final tests in Pakistan, which mainly will focus on verifying the Ericsson (now part of Saab) PS-890 Erieye radar system, which is fitted to the aircraft as a dorsal 'plank' antenna.
> 
> The Erieye features an electronic-warfare suite that includes electronic support, threat-warning and countermeasures dispensing subsystems, an identification friend-or-foe subsystem, command-and-control (C2) capabilities and a ground-based mission trainer.
> 
> The first of four aircraft was handed over to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on 8 December 2009 during a formal ceremony at PAF Kamra. The Erieye aircraft will be operated by 3 Squadron based at Chaklala in the northeast of the country.
> 
> A delivery schedule for the remaining two aircraft has not yet been announced.
> 
> The contract to purchase the Erieye aircraft was first signed in October 2005 but suspended following the earthquake in Pakistan. The contract was finalised in June 2006, with the first aircraft being rolled out from Saab's facility in Link&#246;ping, Sweden, on 27 March 2008.
> 
> The Erieye will data-link with the PAF's Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcons but not with its Dassault Mirage fleet. In January 2009 Pakistan decided to procure four Chinese-built Shaanxi Y-8 AEW&C aircraft to complement its Erieye order.
> 
> Not yet delivered, these aircraft, which are based on the Ukrainian-built Antonov An-12 'Cub', are intended to be compatible with Chinese-built aircraft in the PAF's inventory, such as the PAC/CAC JF-17 Thunder, CAC F-7 and NAMC A-5-III 'Fantan' fighters.
> 
> 
> _so the question remains.....how will the mirage fleet be data linked?_



Just want to point out that not having data links does not mean the communications cannot happen. The Erieye can still work with Mirages over VHF/UHF bands however they are only as secure as the GCI communication with the Mirages. So Mirages can and will be directed by the Erieyes but via voice comm. instead of data comm. An example of this was the way the IAF MKIs were directed by the E-3 sentry during Red Flag last year.

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## fatman17

so 4 erieyes will data-link with 54 F-16s currently (A/B and C/D). in future a further 28 F-16s are expected (via EDA and new C/D) for a total of 82 examples.

by 2014, 150 JF-17s will be data-linked with the chinese awacs along with any surviving F-7PGs.


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> so 4 erieyes will data-link with 54 F-16s currently (A/B and C/D). in future a further 28 F-16s are expected (via EDA and new C/D) for a total of 82 examples.
> 
> by 2014, 150 JF-17s will be data-linked with the chinese awacs along with any surviving F-7PGs.



Sir, JF-17 would be able to have data link capability with the Erieyes or any western platform as per what was told to me. 

Plz see the posts link given below for further reading and understanding.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...its-second-saab-erieye-awac-5.html#post819036

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...its-second-saab-erieye-awac-3.html#post817400


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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir, JF-17 would be able to have data link capability with the Erieyes or any western platform as per what was told to me.
> 
> Plz see the posts link given below for further reading and understanding.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...its-second-saab-erieye-awac-5.html#post819036
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...its-second-saab-erieye-awac-3.html#post817400



if that is true then why buy the chinese awacs? - sounds like over-kill to me!


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## Patriot

^To diversify our AWACS fleet.


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> if that is true then why buy the chinese awacs? - sounds like over-kill to me!



Well am not yet 100% sure, but what I was told, that JF-17s and FC-20s would also be compatible with Chinese platforms as well as Erieyes. 

The western avionics & weapon systems work on the western standard MIL-STD-1553, MIL-STD-1760 etc kind of stuff. 

So even if its a China made radar or aircraft and it employs the MIL-STD standard for its avionics, radar and weapons management systems, the Chinese stuff can be integrated to communicate with any western platforms, either F-16s, FC-20s & JF-17s. 

So if the Chinese AEW&C is built using the MIL-STD standards for its avionics and radar, then it is very possible for it to communicate with JF-17s, FC-20s and even F-16s and also with the Erieyes and GCS and can easily be integrated with our net centric air defence system. 

Whatever systems China shows for export, they all are stated to come in western MIL-STD configuration so that they are capable to be integrated with western weapon systems. 

Even the ROSE upgraded Mirage have a Chinese MAW/RAR system installed.

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## AVIAN

blain2 said:


> Just want to point out that not having data links does not mean the communications cannot happen. The Erieye can still work with Mirages over VHF/UHF bands however they are only as secure as the GCI communication with the Mirages. So Mirages can and will be directed by the Erieyes but via voice comm. instead of data comm. An example of this was the way the IAF MKIs were directed by the E-3 sentry during Red Flag last year.



Voice Communication can be very riskiest as it is prone to interception and hence advent of Data linking as a safest approch.


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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> if that is true then why buy the chinese awacs? - sounds like over-kill to me!


The Chinese system, ZDK03, is a long-term development project...Erieyes will see through the bulk of work for a while.


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## Mani2020

Mark Sien said:


> The Chinese system, ZDK03, is a long-term development project...Erieyes will see through the bulk of work for a while.



But the first one is due to deliver in 2011 and the next two in 2012


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## TOPGUN

Falcon Da-20 can we have some info on the aircraft? and how often do we use it ? and often do we fly it?


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## MZUBAIR

I heard that chinese awacs are with AESA radar.
Capable to strike like
fire BVR missiles.
AWACS killer missiles.
Air to ground missiles.
May be cruise missiles will also be.
Dont know about range.
It would be having compatible datalink (For long range deduction and tracking) with JF-17

But I dont know references......
But if its true then IAF wouldnt be having any superior edge.

Any senior member give a light on it.


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## Mani2020

TOPGUN said:


> Falcon Da-20 can we have some info on the aircraft? and how often do we use it ? and often do we fly it?



PAF have two of them in service operated by No. 24 Squadron Blinders,and they are fitted with Electronic Warfare equipment to gather electronic intelligence and can be used as electronic counter measures aircrafts


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## TOPGUN

Mani2020 said:


> PAF have two of them in service operated by No. 24 Squadron Blinders,and they are fitted with Electronic Warfare equipment to gather electronic intelligence and can be used as electronic counter measures aircrafts



Thanks Mani2020 i know all this was wondering if we know alittle more about them & etc.. and how much do we fly them.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well , the chinese awacs would be good learning project and diversify our national assets in case one platform is jammed or blocked we will always have second strike capabilities with other


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## Koga Ryu

akistan to get Chinese AEW&C aircraft this year:

Friday, May 07, 2010: Pakistan has received its second Erieye radar-equipped Saab 2000, and will also accept its first Shaanxi ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control system aircraft before year-end. 


Shaanxi Y8 or ZDK-03 AWACS ? 

Islamabad has four ZDK-03s on order, with deliveries due to start later this year, say air force sources. The type is a new variant of the Shaanxi Y8 AEW&C aircraft designed specifically for Pakistan.

The Chinese aircraft is powered by four turboprop engines and has a greater range than offered by the Saab Microwave Systems Erieye, the sources say.

The air force recently received its second Saab 2000 surveillance aircraft, and anticipates that it will receive its remaining two in the second and third quarters of this year. 


Erieye Saab 2000 AEW&C 

Pakistan's move to source AEW&C aircraft from both China and the West is indicative of its strategy to refrain from being overly reliant on any one ally. The USA imposed military sanctions against Pakistan from 1990 to 2005 in response to its testing nuclear weapons.

The air force's current fleet includes Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage III and 5 fighters, Chengdu F-7s and JF-17s; a new type developed jointly by China and Pakistan.

In terms of military transports, Pakistan flies Lockheed C-130s, but also operates Ilyushin Il-78 tankers.

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## blain2

AVIAN said:


> Voice Communication can be very riskiest as it is prone to interception and hence advent of Data linking as a safest approch.



It is risky but works. Your entire Air Force uses it.


----------



## Adios Amigo




----------



## air marshal

*Pakistan to get Chinese Shaanxi ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft this year*
May 7, 2010

Pakistan has received its second Erieye radar-equipped Saab 2000, and will also accept its first Shaanxi ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control system aircraft before year-end.

Islamabad has four ZDK-03s on order by Musharrafs previous government, with deliveries due to start later this year, say air force sources. The type is a new variant of the Shaanxi Y8 AEW&C aircraft designed specifically for Pakistan.

The Chinese aircraft is powered by four turboprop engines and has a greater range than offered by the Saab Microwave Systems Erieye, the sources say.

The air force recently received its second Saab 2000 surveillance aircraft, and anticipates that it will receive its remaining two in the second and third quarters of this year.

Pakistan to get Chinese AEW&C aircraft this year | Pakistan Daily

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## DANGER-ZONE

air marshal said:


> *Pakistan to get Chinese Shaanxi ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft this year*
> May 7, 2010
> 
> Pakistan has received its second Erieye radar-equipped Saab 2000, and will also accept its first Shaanxi ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control system aircraft before year-end.
> 
> Islamabad has four ZDK-03s on order by Musharrafs previous government, with deliveries due to start later this year, say air force sources. The type is a new variant of the Shaanxi Y8 AEW&C aircraft designed specifically for Pakistan.
> 
> The Chinese aircraft is powered by four turboprop engines and has a greater range than offered by the Saab Microwave Systems Erieye, the sources say.
> 
> The air force recently received its second Saab 2000 surveillance aircraft, and anticipates that it will receive its remaining two in the second and third quarters of this year.
> 
> Pakistan to get Chinese AEW&C aircraft this year | Pakistan Daily



rotating disk radar,finally...


----------



## air marshal



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## hassan1

PAF ZDK-03 LIKE THIS 




Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Peregrine

Hi 
I hope PAF won't be getting these AWAC'S in white color scheme, Grey looks much better or how about Black and red that would be awesome but highly unlikely


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## nightrider_saulat

air marshal said:


>



why not to get this bird in a straight order of eight machines


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## TOPGUN

hassan1 said:


> PAF ZDK-03 LIKE THIS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us



I don't think this is the one we are getting .. plz read up and see what we are getting .. plus this puppy is really ugly


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## TaimiKhan

TOPGUN said:


> I don't think this is the one we are getting .. plz read up and see what we are getting .. plus this puppy is really ugly



This version is the exactly one which we are going to get. Check the Chinese AEW&C thread and see what the Ex-CAS had to say about the dish antenna version of the Chinese AEW&C. 

The main difference between the above picture and the one which w will get would be the platform on which the radar would be mounted. 

Mostly probably, the AEW&C would be based on the Y-8F600 version, which is the latest from Chinese in collaboration with American & P&W & Ukrainian & even some British inputs for export models. 

Thus, may be PAF gets the Y-8F600 model with P&W engines, avionics suite by Honeywell, propeller system of the British. 

Or if we are looking for cost cutting measures, then an all Chinese version can be gotten also. 

Y-8F600 is the model on which Chinese KJ-200 Balance Beam version is mounted.


----------



## TOPGUN

TaimiKhan said:


> This version is the exactly one which we are going to get. Check the Chinese AEW&C thread and see what the Ex-CAS had to say about the dish antenna version of the Chinese AEW&C.
> 
> The main difference between the above picture and the one which w will get would be the platform on which the radar would be mounted.
> 
> Mostly probably, the AEW&C would be based on the Y-8F600 version, which is the latest from Chinese in collaboration with American & P&W & Ukrainian & even some British inputs for export models.
> 
> Thus, may be PAF gets the Y-8F600 model with P&W engines, avionics suite by Honeywell, propeller system of the British.
> 
> Or if we are looking for cost cutting measures, then an all Chinese version can be gotten also.
> 
> Y-8F600 is the model on which Chinese KJ-200 Balance Beam version is mounted.



Sir i did mean the platform..... this is not the platfrom we are gona get atleast from my knowledge


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## khanasifm

Y8F600 is the platform for PAK version of AWACS , radar unknown. Propeller system same as SAAB 2000 (Dowty 6 blade Propellers)

http://www.geaviationsystems.com/Pl...xi-Y-/Literature/APS_Avic2_data_sheet_mid.pdf


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## Cent4

Pakistan has received its second Erieye radar-equipped Saab 2000, and will also accept its *first Shaanxi ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control system aircraft before year-end.*
Islamabad has four ZDK-03s on order, with deliveries due to start later this year, say air force sources. The type is a new variant of the Shaanxi Y8 AEW&C aircraft designed specifically for Pakistan.
The Chinese aircraft is powered by four turboprop engines and has a greater range than offered by the Saab Microwave Systems Erieye, the sources say.
The air force recently received its second Saab 2000 surveillance aircraft, and anticipates that it will receive its remaining two in the second and third quarters of this year.

Pakistan's move to source AEW&C aircraft from both China and the West is indicative of its strategy to refrain from being overly reliant on any one ally. The USA imposed military sanctions against Pakistan from 1990 to 2005 in response to its testing nuclear weapons.
The air force's current fleet includes Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage III and 5 fighters, Chengdu F-7s and JF-17s; a new type developed jointly by China and Pakistan.
In terms of military transports, Pakistan flies Lockheed C-130s, but also operates Ilyushin Il-78 tankers.

By Leithen Francis
DATE:07/05/10

Pakistan to get Chinese AEW&C aircraft this year


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## razgriz19

TOPGUN said:


> I don't think this is the one we are getting .. plz read up and see what we are getting .. plus this puppy is really ugly



i think this is the one we r getting...


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## TOPGUN

razgriz19 said:


> i think this is the one we r getting...



Yes exactly on the money  thats what i was talking about thx .

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## farhan_9909

i think we are getting the one with the disc antenna


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## Peregrine

Hi 
Whatever we are getting i hope it is worthy enough to serve PAF, is there any info regarding their ECM against Phalcons?


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## MJaa

In the* Sept 2008 issue of AFM * then Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed's interview clearly states that PAF has opted for KJ-200AEW&C designated as the ZDK-03AEW&C, will have the* "blade on top", not a rotating dome.*

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## wangrong

*Y8F600+ ZDK-03 *

say many times

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## MJaa

wangrong said:


> *Y8F600+ ZDK-03 *
> 
> say many times



this again proves what i am saying that 

ZDK03 AEW&C is KJ200 as only Chinese KJ-200 Balance Beam is using the Y8F600

and Y8 AEW&C with rotating dome don't use the the Y-8F600 version atleast for now.


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## Dazzler

Y-8F600 version WILL BE mated with CIRCULAR ASEA radar as mounted on KJ-2000 (similar to it but may not be the same version)


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## Dr.Evil

danger-zone said:


> rotating disk radar,finally...



Is that dome a Mechanical rotating dome, i thought it was a electronic rotation ( dome does not rotate physically )

Could some one tell me which one is correct.


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## TaimiKhan

For the new guys who have no idea what you are talking about. 

Go behind few pages and read the Ex-CAS interview, in which he clearly said it would having a dish mounted radar. Its not balance beam. 

How many times the model pictures and interview of Ex-CAS has to be posted to confirm it. 

If Pakistan had wanted Balance Beam version, then why the dish mounted prototype had come to Chaklala AB and was tested by PAF guys.


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## wangrong

MJaa said:


> this again proves what i am saying that
> 
> *ZDK03 AEW&C is KJ200 *as only Chinese KJ-200 Balance Beam is using the Y8F600
> 
> and Y8 AEW&C with rotating dome don't use the the Y-8F600 version atleast for now.



no,Y8 AEW&C with rotating dome will use the the Y-8F600 version(*ioc* )


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## dbc

I think there is some confusion here* the term "Balance Beam" has likely more to do with beam characteristics and absolutely no relation to the shape of the radome.*

"Balance beam" is just a designation for the Chinese radar that Pakistan will receive, it is a name like "Condor" or "Green Pine". Whether the radar is mounted on a dorsal plank fairing (like Erieye) or a fixed rotodome is of little consequence since the array is two sided and NOT triangular like the KJ-2000 or IAF Phalcon. 

Hint: look at KJ2000 and IAF Phalcon you will see a silver triangle on the rotodome. On the E-3 and Pakistani Y-8F600 ZDK-03 it is a broad silver line indicating it is a two sided array.

The only mechanical and electronically steered airborne radar is the new APY-9 (Hawkeye E-2D).


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## TaimiKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I think there is some confusion here* the term "Balance Beam" has likely more to do with beam characteristics and absolutely no relation to the shape of the radome.*
> 
> "Balance beam" is just a designation for the Chinese radar that Pakistan will receive, it is a name like "Condor" or "Green Pine". Whether the radar is mounted on a dorsal plank fairing (like Erieye) or a fixed rotodome is of little consequence since the array is two sided and NOT triangular like the KJ-2000 or IAF Phalcon.
> 
> Hint: look at KJ2000 and IAF Phalcon you will see a silver triangle on the rotodome. On the E-3 and Pakistani Y-8F600 ZDK-03 it is a broad silver line indicating it is a two sided array.
> 
> The only mechanical and electronically steered airborne radar is the new APY-9 (Hawkeye E-2D).



Sorry my bad, it has a rotating dish. I confused it with something else. 

"Q: The Chinese AWACS progress of the procurement plan?

A: The Chinese AWACS can reach the Pakistan Air Force aerial reconnaissance and related mission requirements.China's aircraft operations and technology has entered the final stage of negotiations, the contract is expected soon. We have completed our study, and proposed a long list of improvements. Eventually we will get close to the ability of the Air Force procurement requirements. China has studied our proposals, and from here we have a lot of feedback.

We have defined a lot of technical requirements - such as aircraft internal enviourment, we require improvement. We should improve the internal renovation, the pilot's comfort level must be improved (he has to 7-9 hours-day mission). *Aircraft models is ZDK-03, at the top of a rotating disk rather than* the balance beam. We need four aircraft, *we would love them to be commonly configured with other systems including the Erieye.* They would be used to monitor Pakistans airspace which is entirely defensive in nature.

*China's ZDK-03 aircraft will be cross-linked with Chinese planes,Erieyes and other Western aircraft will also be data-linked to one another, but at present there are no planes to data-link the Mirages.* "

PAF Falcons Forums &bull; View topic - ACM Interview: PAF will purchase FC-20 by end of this year

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...chinese-aew-c-aircraft-year-2.html#post842397


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## TaimiKhan

Check the angle of the disk resting in each of the pic, it seems to be rotating one. 





*And this one which came to Pakistan*

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## KEETARP

> Aircraft models is ZDK-03, at the top of a rotating disk rather than the balance beam



What he meant by Balance Beam was probably "Full Beam Management " , in case of Mechanically Aperture there is minimal Beam Management . 
Electronic Choreography / Electronically controlled Beam Steering is what Balanced Beam term must have been used to convey meaning


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## TaimiKhan

LT.PRATEEK said:


> What he meant by Balance Beam was probably "Full Beam Management " , in case of Mechanically Aperture there is minimal Beam Management .
> Electronic Choreography / Electronically controlled Beam Steering is what Balanced Beam term must have been used to convey meaning



From Balance Beam what he meant was the one used on KJ-200 or the Erieye system, as he mentions rotating dish with it, thus he differentiated about the shape of the radar and its mechanism that whether it would be static or will it rotate. 

The radar shape on KJ-200 and Erieye are shaped like a Balance Beam used in gymnastics. Like below:







So he and we are discussing about the shape and make, how it works and on what tech it works, well that would be kept a secret for obvious reasons.


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## dbc

TaimiKhan said:


> Check the angle of the disk resting in each of the pic, it seems to be rotating one.




I doubt the platform Pakistan is getting is a rotating rotodome since it is expensive to build and operate a rotating rotodome.


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## TaimiKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I doubt the platform Pakistan is getting is a rotating rotodome since it is expensive to build and operate a rotating rotodome.



Well that is what the Ex-PAF Chief had said in the above interview. 

Plus, the model picture which cam recently on the net also shows the same thing with Pak-China flags on it. 

And a certain member on the forum with very good inside knowledge had also said that China had not agreed to give the KJ-2000 based system exactly as what Chinese are using, but still it would be having many of the latest what the Chinese can give us. So may be the Chinese had not agreed to provide the AESA based platform for the time being. 

I believe in a few months time, the picture would be clear as the system should be in Pakistan by end of this year.


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## KEETARP

O yes Taimi , you are correct Balance Beam is actually radar arrangement , I confused it with software management . 
Now as DBC says the Shape of arrangement of Array on Disk will be in Triangular shape , 
How much that disk rotation will be needed if needed at all , bcoz of Beam Steering you can have 360 degree coverage with time based Selective Tracking as well , out of whole scanning zone , 
what's the use of rotation if you have AESA


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## dbc

TaimiKhan said:


> Chinese had not agreed to provide the AESA based platform for the time being.
> 
> I believe in a few months time, the picture would be clear as the system should be in Pakistan by end of this year.



Are you saying the Chinese system Pakistan is in the process of acquiring may not be an AESA?


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## TaimiKhan

LT.PRATEEK said:


> O yes Taimi , you are correct Balance Beam is actually radar arrangement , I confused it with software management .
> Now as DBC says the Shape of arrangement of Array on Disk will be in Triangular shape ,
> How much that disk rotation will be needed if needed at all , bcoz of Beam Steering you can have 360 degree coverage with time based Selective Tracking as well , out of whole scanning zone ,
> what's the use of rotation if you have AESA



Well it may not be an AESA, it may be something based on PESA or a normal radar as used in the US systems, not the latest ones, the older systems kind.


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## TaimiKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Are you saying the Chinese system Pakistan is in the process of acquiring may not be an AESA?



May be, as nothing confirmed has come up in this regard. 

Problem is that the system which came to Pakistan in 2005 was the one whose pictures have been given, the rotating dish version, while Chinese AESA based KJ-200/KJ-2000 came much earlier at start of 2001-02 i believe. 

So if Pakistan had wanted something based on AESA, then we should have seen something else, not the rotating dish version.

US E-3 has PESA radar in them, don't they ??

So why not a PESA based system on the PAF ZDK-03


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## farhan_9909

what is the range of this kj-200

is it bettter then erieye ?


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## maxx

I found this:


> December also saw Pakistan sign a $278 million deal for four Chinese KJ-2000/ZDK03 AEW&C aircraft, whose active electronically steered array radar is mounted on a turboprop-powered Y-8F600.


Pakistan Surmounts Sanctions To Revive Airpower - Defense News


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## TaimiKhan

maxx said:


> I found this:
> 
> Pakistan Surmounts Sanctions To Revive Airpower - Defense News



Yeah, a lot of sources say its AESA, but there isn't any confirmed official source. 

The pictures of the platform which came to Pakistan and the pictures of the latest model of ZDK-03 pasted previous page says something else.


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## Sanchez

ZDK-03 was not based on AESA radar in the origin prototype when showed to PAF several years ago. PAF had asked for modifications but no one knows if it'd be changed to AESA.


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## Sanchez

farhan_9909 said:


> what is the range of this kj-200
> 
> is it bettter then erieye ?



350-450kms


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## sancho

TaimiKhan said:


> Yeah, a lot of sources say its AESA, but there isn't any confirmed official source.
> 
> The pictures of the platform which came to Pakistan and the pictures of the latest model of ZDK-03 pasted previous page says something else.



Keep the difference in mind! The KJ 2000 does not have a rotodome, but 3 radar arrays in a triangle form if I'm not wrong. That's why that system should be an AESA radar, but the system that came to Pakistan had a rotodome as you pointed out and as LT.PRATEEK said, both makes no sense.

So the question is, will PAF get the fixed dome of the KJ 2000, or not and personally I would want to know if the KJ 2000 dome fits on Y-8, because it must be pretty heavy and looks bigger.
Btw, the aircraft that cam to Pakistan is a Y-8, the model instead is a Y-9 if I'm not wrong, so might show a future AWACS model that could be possible for PAF too.


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## MJaa

TaimiKhan said:


> For the new guys who have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> Go behind few pages and read the Ex-CAS interview, in which he clearly said it would having a dish mounted radar. Its not balance beam.
> 
> How many times the model pictures and interview of Ex-CAS has to be posted to confirm it.
> 
> If Pakistan had wanted Balance Beam version, then why the dish mounted prototype had come to Chaklala AB and was tested by PAF guys.



With all due respect Sir,
*Information i provided comes from the interview given by the Ex-Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed (March 18, 2006 &#8211; March 18, 2009) to the  AFM's editor Alan Warnes published in AirForces Monthly September 2008 under the name of PERFECTING THE PAF

*

*if you dont believe me Look it up in Sept 2008 issue of air force monthly 
*

In the Sept 2008 issue of AFM the then *PAF Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed's interview* clearly states that the Y-8F-600 airframe, designated as the ZDK-03, will have the *"blade on top, not a rotating dome".*

Ok Y-8 with rotating dome did came to Pakistan and we have seen few pictures of that, it came to Pakistan for evaluation like most of the other stuff that defense companies send but that doesn't mean it was selected.

It has been said that PAF was not happy with the platform and wanted improvements 

Have anybody seen pictures of any improved version of *Y-8 with rotating dome* since? 

On the other hand KJ-200 have moved from old Y-8 to Y-8 F600

anyways i will leave my argument for now and wait till end of this year when ZDK03 comes to Pakistan


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## TaimiKhan

sancho said:


> Keep the difference in mind! The KJ 2000 does not have a rotodome, but 3 radar arrays in a triangle form if I'm not wrong. That's why that system should be an AESA radar, but the system that came to Pakistan had a rotodome as you pointed out and as LT.PRATEEK said, both makes no sense.
> 
> So the question is, will PAF get the fixed dome of the KJ 2000, or not and personally I would want to know if the KJ 2000 dome fits on Y-8, because it must be pretty heavy and looks bigger.
> Btw, the aircraft that cam to Pakistan is a Y-8, the model instead is a Y-9 if I'm not wrong, so might show a future AWACS model that could be possible for PAF too.



Well Y-9 for the time being has been suspended or stopped and efforts were made to make the Y-8F600. 

Chinese KJ-200 is based on the Y-8F600 models, and most probably PAF will be getting the Y-8F600. Y-8F600 has very much reached some of the specifications required for the Y-9. Engines changes, propellers changed and full glass cockpit and crew reduced.

And if PAF gets an AESA based AEW&C like the dish mounted on the KJ-2000, well its not like both would have the safe size, the PAF Y-8 can have a smaller sized radar panels, just like the size which we have seen on the current Y-8 with dish mounted radar. So with a smaller sized radar panels it will be lighter and Y-8 would be able to take it.


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## TaimiKhan

MJaa said:


> With all due respect Sir,
> *Information i provided comes from the interview given by the Ex-Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed (March 18, 2006  March 18, 2009) to the  AFM's editor Alan Warnes published in AirForces Monthly September 2008 under the name of PERFECTING THE PAF
> 
> *
> 
> *if you dont believe me Look it up in Sept 2008 issue of air force monthly
> *
> 
> In the Sept 2008 issue of AFM the then *PAF Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed's interview* clearly states that the Y-8F-600 airframe, designated as the ZDK-03, will have the *"blade on top, not a rotating dome".*
> 
> Ok Y-8 with rotating dome did came to Pakistan and we have seen few pictures of that, it came to Pakistan for evaluation like most of the other stuff that defense companies send but that doesn't mean it was selected.
> 
> It has been said that PAF was not happy with the platform and wanted improvements
> 
> Have anybody seen pictures of any improved version of *Y-8 with rotating dome* since?
> 
> On the other hand KJ-200 have moved from old Y-8 to Y-8 F600
> 
> anyways i will leave my argument for now and wait till end of this year when ZDK03 comes to Pakistan



Well, i am providing 2 links of the Ex-ACM's interview which you have quoted, all three says says it will have *rotating dish rather then a balance beam.* If i am reading it the opposite, plz let me know. 

*"Aircraft models is ZDK-03, at the top of a rotating disk rather than the balance beam."*

Pakistani Defence Forum > Acm&#39;s Latest Interview Lots Of Interesting Stuff

*
"Aircraft models is ZDK-03, at the top of a rotating disk rather than the balance beam."* 

PAF Falcons Forums &bull; View topic - ACM Interview: PAF will purchase FC-20 by end of this year


Can you plz quote your links where it says it will be balance beam as what i quoted are the interview text of the interview the Ex-ACM had given.


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## MJaa

TaimiKhan said:


> Well, i am providing 2 links of the Ex-ACM's interview which you have quoted, all three says says it will have *rotating dish rather then a balance beam.* If i am reading it the opposite, plz let me know.
> 
> *"Aircraft models is ZDK-03, at the top of a rotating disk rather than the balance beam."*
> 
> Pakistani Defence Forum > Acm's Latest Interview Lots Of Interesting Stuff
> 
> *
> "Aircraft models is ZDK-03, at the top of a rotating disk rather than the balance beam."*
> 
> PAF Falcons Forums &bull; View topic - ACM Interview: PAF will purchase FC-20 by end of this year
> 
> 
> Can you plz quote your links where it says it will be balance beam as what i quoted are the interview text of the interview the Ex-ACM had given.



Friend these are the links of Forums, Please see the AFM issue itself and issue would be resolved


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## TaimiKhan

MJaa said:


> Friend these are the links of Forums, Please see the AFM issue itself and issue would be resolved



I don't have the subscription to get AFM, plus its very interesting that all sources are reporting the same thing, while you are saying this. 

Amazingly in last 2 years since its printing, no one on these forums have corrected this mistake or pointed out. 

Why don't you post the original magazine interview directly here, lets see what it has.


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## MJaa

TaimiKhan said:


> I don't have the subscription to get AFM, plus its very interesting that all sources are reporting the same thing, while you are saying this.
> 
> Amazingly in last 2 years since its printing, no one on these forums have corrected this mistake or pointed out.
> 
> Why don't you post the original magazine interview directly here, lets see what it has.



Ok sir it wont matter any more
here is pic and details from new AFM issue, so i do have to  with you that it will be Y-8 F-600 AEW&C with top of a rotating disk

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## fatman17

DATE:07/05/10

SOURCE:Flight International

*Pakistan to get Chinese AEW&C aircraft this year* 

By Leithen Francis

Pakistan has received its second Erieye radar-equipped Saab 2000, and will also accept its first Shaanxi ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control system aircraft before year-end.

Islamabad has four ZDK-03s on order, with deliveries due to start later this year, say air force sources. The type is a new variant of the Shaanxi Y8 AEW&C aircraft designed specifically for Pakistan.

The Chinese aircraft is powered by four turboprop engines and has a greater range than offered by the Saab Microwave Systems Erieye, the sources say.

The air force recently received its second Saab 2000 surveillance aircraft, and anticipates that it will receive its remaining two in the second and third quarters of this year.

Islamabad signed a mid-2006 contract for Erieye radar-equipped Saab 2000s 

Pakistan's move to source AEW&C aircraft from both China and the West is indicative of its strategy to refrain from being overly reliant on any one ally. The USA imposed military sanctions against Pakistan from 1990 to 2005 in response to its testing nuclear weapons.

The air force's current fleet includes Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage III and 5 fighters, Chengdu F-7s and JF-17s; a new type developed jointly by China and Pakistan.

In terms of military transports, Pakistan flies Lockheed C-130s, but also operates Ilyushin Il-78 tankers.

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## SQ8

One really confusing decision made by the PAF which is not having a datalink compatible with every system. Sounds downright idiotic to separate western and Chinese systems from each other. So to ensure an Awac datalink to a Jf-17 there must be a Chinese Awac airborne. The Swedish system cant tell the thunder jack electronically about the situation in the sky unless it uses a radio. So wherever you have a Chinese system you have a Chinese Awac. Then if there is a F-16 airborne it needs the erieye to support it. It can fly around with 3 Y8's but cant see what they are seeing..Stupid idea just to protect sensitives. The only possible reason sensitivities will be compromised is if you have observers from the countries on board the aircraft trying to figure out what the other's product can see or not see. Isn't the PAF supposed to fly these planes?. Or will be be having swedes and Chinese sitting as class monitors looking out for it. 
Datalinks need a compatible protocol and a secure radio. If you know what format the data the Swedish system generates and you know what format the Chinese system can generate, then you can design a SOC to read and convert data in real time. Heck I'll do it for a fee. And there wont be any security compromised since the systems will rest on the aircraft. 
The Idea of having these systems "talk" via controllers and ground links is stupid as well, is the ground station protected by some shield? Cant it be hit?
even if there are 50 different ground stations all over the country cant they be taken out eventually?
If the swedes are so worried about the Chinese find out out secrets of the Erieye heck why don't we just separate the bases. And post guards. But compromising on your situational awareness just to appease some technological secrets for other countries. Stupid.

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## Mani2020

santro said:


> One really confusing decision made by the PAF which is not having a datalink compatible with every system. Sounds downright idiotic to separate western and Chinese systems from each other. So to ensure an Awac datalink to a Jf-17 there must be a Chinese Awac airborne. The Swedish system cant tell the thunder jack electronically about the situation in the sky unless it uses a radio. So wherever you have a Chinese system you have a Chinese Awac. Then if there is a F-16 airborne it needs the erieye to support it. It can fly around with 3 Y8's but cant see what they are seeing..Stupid idea just to protect sensitives. The only possible reason sensitivities will be compromised is if you have observers from the countries on board the aircraft trying to figure out what the other's product can see or not see. Isn't the PAF supposed to fly these planes?. Or will be be having swedes and Chinese sitting as class monitors looking out for it.
> Datalinks need a compatible protocol and a secure radio. If you know what format the data the Swedish system generates and you know what format the Chinese system can generate, then you can design a SOC to read and convert data in real time. Heck I'll do it for a fee. And there wont be any security compromised since the systems will rest on the aircraft.
> The Idea of having these systems "talk" via controllers and ground links is stupid as well, is the ground station protected by some shield? Cant it be hit?
> even if there are 50 different ground stations all over the country cant they be taken out eventually?
> If the swedes are so worried about the Chinese find out out secrets of the Erieye heck why don't we just separate the bases. And post guards. But compromising on your situational awareness just to appease some technological secrets for other countries. Stupid.



Sir PAF jf-17 and f-16 both use NATO standard data linking "Link -16" it means both can be data linked with Erieye and Chinese AWAC (as zdk-03 customized for PAF will surely have link-16 data linking ability as jf-17 have) so there is no problem of LINKING any of these aircrafts with either chinese or sweedish AWACS

The article of AFM mentions that only Erieye and chinese AWACS will not be data linked with each other but surely they both will be data linked with any type of aircrafts in LIKE JF-17,F-16 AND FC-20 and ground radars


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## SQ8

The article also mentions "the chinese awacs talks to the chinese aircraft, the erieye will talk to the western aircraft". I don't see any other meaning other than each system to its own bloc.


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## Sapper

santro said:


> The article also mentions "the chinese awacs talks to the chinese aircraft, the erieye will talk to the western aircraft". I don't see any other meaning other than each system to its own bloc.



Dear Santro,

You are correct ... PAF has inducted two different AEW&C systems, but in both of them, you'll find out that there is emphasis on "AEW" and not "C". PAF does not hold a deep strike doctrine, rather than strong defensive and swift/decisive low penetration strike capability. All of the Aircraft currently in inventory, and planned for future have max strike ranges of less than 500~800km, indicating that PAF plans to use them within confines of Pakistani territory and if necessary, strike close to border, but not very far, but with tremendous impunity.

Keeping this doctrine in mind, it seems logical that you control ("C") your aircraft from hardened command center and relay information through numerous and seemingly invisible communication outposts. Hardened bunkers are much difficult to destroy, when they are situated deep inside the border, protected with SAM and CAP cover. On the other hand, AEW&C systems are very high value soft targets, that could eventually fall prey to well placed medium and long range AAMs launched from a handful of kamikaze pilots.

PAF will operate both AEW&C and link fighters to ground controllers on defensive missions. On the other hand, when required to strike inside enemy territory, controllers present on AEW&C will communicate directly to supported fighters, who will fly only with supported AEW&C for offensive missions.

Regards,
Sapper

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## Dazzler

The only scenario is that both AWACS will not be entirely integrated with one another to keep the Westerners quiet for an obvious reason as Swedish had concerns from Chinese too. PAF is not dumb as to induct two systems that are unable to provide info and guidance to its aircraft when they need it most. But information between both systems will not be completely integrated. This does not mean that ZDK cannot guide f-16s or Erieye cant do the same for Thunders or FC-20s.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

We all know that this decision of going with the chinese awacs was shoved down the throat of PAF by Gen. Musharraf.

The PAF retiring chief was so classless and crass in personality that the moment he retired, he started bashing Musharraf about it.

Musharraf made a very wise decision---he knew that the momentum was starting to go against pakistan---awacs was a neccessity---a mega force multiplier---for this time and act---he indeed had the vision to do what he did.

If it was left to PAF--we had a good chance of being scr-ewed one more time. 

Lots of people are talking about mil standard datalinks----it all looks good on paper---the litmus test comes to light when the both of them actually talk to each other without remorse.

Western and eastern systems have a tendency of not understanding each other---if they work together---it is good for pakistan---but if they don't---it is not much of a loss---. If you look at the number of awacs and the viccinity of operational dimensions---it doesnot matter much.

Even if pak had 4 awacs---it would be like 500% increase in capabilities.

Gentlemen and some of you ladies----just look at the percentage of operational and tactical improvement by the induction of one system---multiply it by two systems and you have like a 1000% more enhancement.

Also it creates headache for the enemy---.

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## SQ8

Unfortunately, what still escapes me that even if the PAF is a defensive force, its ability to defend itself lies in putting enough pressure on the opposition to keep it from mounting any meaningful offensive. 
But my actual issue with the data link is the inherent ability an Awacs gives to a linked aircraft to see out of its own radar range. If the new chief is so emphatic about network centric warfare then the first example would be the Jtids system introduced in the USAF and truly the first example of a network centric solution.
If a defending pilot flying a thunder knew from his display that 150 km out there is a MKI flight coming in from the northwest and a mirage flight returning from a strike from the southwest in a battle space full of combatants, it would really make his job easier of managing target selection and what his tasking is to handle. But if he can only do this if there is a chinese awac in the sky then its downright ridiculous.There are interviews of many F-15 pilots stating that since the introduction of Jtids their effectiveness and that of the E-3 has increased tenfold. My emphasis is not with the Erieye and Y-8 talking to each other, but to the jets. And if the GCI is meant to control the whole setup, then why mention datalinks for the fighters at all??
If the Erieye is just an AEW which by all its brochures and profile states that its an AEW&C(the first Swedish system was, it was just a an eye in the sky linked to GCI). 
Datalinks especially amongst differing systems are an uphill task to design, I know it all too well.


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## TaimiKhan

Santro, as far as i know, JF-17 has a western compatible data link, it can communicate with Erieye, so if Chinese AEW&C is being brought in, it would means it will also have capability to interact with JF-17, thus most probably the Chinese system has also equipment which is able to interact on western standard data link capability. If PAF with help of Chinese can make a western data link work with Chinese radar and avionics, then definitely they can make the ZDK-03 AEW&C work with a western data link system, especially if the ZDK-03 is made on western MIL STD codes and standard.

As said many times in other threads, the Chinese can make systems based on western standards for export orders, while their own systems would be on different codes and standards. 

If that AFM article about PAF is seen, it gives the reason of not letting both sensitive platforms communicate each other due to prying eyes, and that sentence is quoted " ", meaning this has been said by some PAF official. As swedes would be worried that if data fusion is done between both of them, the Chinese may have a peek inside their system, same may be the worry of the Chinese also. 

I don't believe it says, both systems can't talk to the aircraft it is controlling, whether it be western ones or Chinese ones. 

But as time passes we will be able to learn more, as for now nothing is clear, but PAF will not let have two separate systems work in such a way that each one controls one set of aircraft. 

And both AEW&Cs would be supported by GCS, as AEW&C are not fully command centers due to limitation of size on platform, which is not faced in a bigger AWACS.


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## farhan_9909

Is it confirmed that Kj-200 has AESA radar

and does erieye also has AESA or nt?


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## TaimiKhan

farhan_9909 said:


> Is it confirmed that Kj-200 has AESA radar
> 
> and does erieye also has AESA or nt?



Chinese KJ-200 has AESA, as well as Erieye has AESA also. 

But what PAF will get ZDK-03, right now seems to have PESA or something else, but not an AESA.


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## Hindustan Fighter

Mani2020 said:


> Sir PAF jf-17 and f-16 both use NATO standard data linking "Link -16" it means both can be data linked with Erieye and Chinese AWAC (as zdk-03 customized for PAF will surely have link-16 data linking ability as jf-17 have) so there is no problem of LINKING any of these aircrafts with either chinese or sweedish AWACS
> 
> The article of AFM mentions that only Erieye and chinese AWACS will not be data linked with each other but surely they both will be data linked with any type of aircrafts in LIKE JF-17,F-16 AND FC-20 and ground radars



This article below was earlier pasted by Fatman 17 earlier it states that Erieye AWAC is for F16 with PAF and Chinese AWAC will be compatible with JF-17 and other Chinese fighters only.

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2010 


Jane's Defence Weekly 

Pakistan takes delivery of second Erieye AEW&C aircraft

Gareth Jennings Jane's Aviation Desk Editor - London

Pakistan has taken delivery of its second Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, the company announced on 26 April. 

According to Saab, the aircraft will now undergo final tests in Pakistan, which mainly will focus on verifying the Ericsson (now part of Saab) PS-890 Erieye radar system, which is fitted to the aircraft as a dorsal 'plank' antenna. 

The Erieye features an electronic-warfare suite that includes electronic support, threat-warning and countermeasures dispensing subsystems, an identification friend-or-foe subsystem, command-and-control (C2) capabilities and a ground-based mission trainer. 

The first of four aircraft was handed over to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on 8 December 2009 during a formal ceremony at PAF Kamra. The Erieye aircraft will be operated by 3 Squadron based at Chaklala in the northeast of the country. 

A delivery schedule for the remaining two aircraft has not yet been announced.

The contract to purchase the Erieye aircraft was first signed in October 2005 but suspended following the earthquake in Pakistan. The contract was finalised in June 2006, with the first aircraft being rolled out from Saab's facility in Linköping, Sweden, on 27 March 2008. 

The Erieye will data-link with the PAF's Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcons but not with its Dassault Mirage fleet. In January 2009 Pakistan decided to procure four Chinese-built Shaanxi Y-8 AEW&C aircraft to complement its Erieye order. 

Not yet delivered, these aircraft, which are based on the Ukrainian-built Antonov An-12 'Cub', are intended to be compatible with Chinese-built aircraft in the PAF's inventory, such as the PAC/CAC JF-17 Thunder, CAC F-7 and NAMC A-5-III 'Fantan' fighters.


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## SQ8

TaimiKhan said:


> Santro, as far as i know, JF-17 has a western compatible data link, it can communicate with Erieye, so if Chinese AEW&C is being brought in, it would means it will also have capability to interact with JF-17, thus most probably the Chinese system has also equipment which is able to interact on western standard data link capability. If PAF with help of Chinese can make a western data link work with Chinese radar and avionics, then definitely they can make the ZDK-03 AEW&C work with a western data link system, especially if the ZDK-03 is made on western MIL STD codes and standard.
> 
> As said many times in other threads, the Chinese can make systems based on western standards for export orders, while their own systems would be on different codes and standards.
> 
> If that AFM article about PAF is seen, it gives the reason of not letting both sensitive platforms communicate each other due to prying eyes, and that sentence is quoted " ", meaning this has been said by some PAF official. As swedes would be worried that if data fusion is done between both of them, the Chinese may have a peek inside their system, same may be the worry of the Chinese also.
> 
> I don't believe it says, both systems can't talk to the aircraft it is controlling, whether it be western ones or Chinese ones.
> 
> But as time passes we will be able to learn more, as for now nothing is clear, but PAF will not let have two separate systems work in such a way that each one controls one set of aircraft.
> 
> And both AEW&Cs would be supported by GCS, as AEW&C are not fully command centers due to limitation of size on platform, which is not faced in a bigger AWACS.



I raised the question when I saw the statement in multiple places, the AFM article recently, the interview done with tanvir mehmood and in the book by alan warnes.
Both the book and the previous interview state "The chinese system will talk to the chinese aircraft and the western system to the western aircraft"


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## TaimiKhan

santro said:


> I raised the question when I saw the statement in multiple places, the AFM article recently, the interview done with tanvir mehmood and in the book by alan warnes.
> Both the book and the previous interview state "The chinese system will talk to the chinese aircraft and the western system to the western aircraft"



Yeah I had read it too, but as said i had been told something else by someone having knowledge of the system. 

If the Chinese aircraft had been wanted to communicate with only the Chinese platform, then we would have used Chinese data link equipment, which we did not. Check the communication antenna on the ROSE Mirages and some of the F-7s, they all have now communication antennas shaped just like the one on JF-17s, thus it would suggest that PAF is going for uniformity. Even the communication antennas under the nose and on the fuselage of JF-17 is different compared to the ones which have now been seen on the FC-1 Prototype# 06, which are of Chinese origin. So JF-17 communication equipment is not Chinese, then definitely they would be of some other origin, and with the love PAF has for western equipment, we can be sure it is western in nature. Check out the new upgraded Turkish F-5s and see how much similar its antennas in shape wise as well as placement wise on the plane matches to JF-17. 

And as for such statements, well they may be for misleading as it may bring some scrutiny as no western would like that their tech should be able to communicate with the Chinese one. 

Logically, how can we have 4 AEW&Cs for just 60-70 western aircraft, while 4 would be covering the whole other fleet of Chinese aircraft. 

PAF has for sure or will find out a solution to this problem, which definitely is there in the JF-17, with western standard data link capability working with Chinese avionics suit.

Here see some of the previous posts about this same thing: 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-3-a-62.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/1284-pakistan-awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-94.html

See at the antennas, there is similarity, my guess is, they are of South African origin, which may have been influenced by the Israeli tech, as SA Cheetahs were upgraded with help and tech from the Israelis and we had considerable help from the SAs with regard to some critical PAF systems, this data link tech may be one of them.

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## SQ8

TaimiKhan said:


> Yeah I had read it too, but as said i had been told something else by someone having knowledge of the system.
> 
> If the Chinese aircraft had been wanted to communicate with only the Chinese platform, then we would have used Chinese data link equipment, which we did not. Check the communication antenna on the ROSE Mirages and some of the F-7s, they all have now communication antennas shaped just like the one on JF-17s, thus it would suggest that PAF is going for uniformity. Even the communication antennas under the nose and on the fuselage of JF-17 is different compared to the ones which have now been seen on the FC-1 Prototype# 06, which are of Chinese origin. So JF-17 communication equipment is not Chinese, then definitely they would be of some other origin, and with the love PAF has for western equipment, we can be sure it is western in nature. Check out the new upgraded Turkish F-5s and see how much similar its antennas in shape wise as well as placement wise on the plane matches to JF-17.
> 
> And as for such statements, well they may be for misleading as it may bring some scrutiny as no western would like that their tech should be able to communicate with the Chinese one.
> 
> Logically, how can we have 4 AEW&Cs for just 60-70 western aircraft, while 4 would be covering the whole other fleet of Chinese aircraft.
> 
> PAF has for sure or will find out a solution to this problem, which definitely is there in the JF-17, with western standard data link capability working with Chinese avionics suit.
> 
> Here see some of the previous posts about this same thing:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-3-a-62.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/1284-pakistan-awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-94.html
> 
> See at the antennas, there is similarity, my guess is, they are of South African origin, which may have been influenced by the Israeli tech, as SA Cheetahs were upgraded with help and tech from the Israelis and we had considerable help from the SAs with regard to some critical PAF systems, this data link tech may be one of them.



checked with somebody in the loop I know, they aren't South African, but the information I got was enough to sweep the doubts and put a nice little smile on my face when I heard it. 
Believe me, its much better then what we are speculating about. Nuff said.


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## Mani2020

santro said:


> checked with somebody in the loop I know, they aren't South African, but the information I got was enough to sweep the doubts and put a nice little smile on my face when I heard it.
> Believe me, its much better then what we are speculating about. Nuff said.



If u have such information and knowledge.do share it with us ,so it will add to our knowledge and will be appreciated


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## was

TaimiKhan said:


> Chinese KJ-200 has AESA, as well as Erieye has AESA also.
> 
> But what PAF will get ZDK-03, right now seems to have PESA or something else, but not an AESA.



i dont know a single country that have two systems completely different from each other.

paf is always concerned about maintanance.now if i,m not wrong the zdk/03 is a rotating disc.means more maintanance.

world is moving on to aesa ect. but we are going back to cold war era ROTATING DISCS.


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## SQ8

Mani2020 said:


> If u have such information and knowledge.do share it with us ,so it will add to our knowledge and will be appreciated



I can tell you when and if the time is right. I can openly release a lot of info I get by just listening and asking stuff at the right time. But when I feel it may compromise security(mine in case some intelligence fellow is bored enough to snoop here  ). 
But regarding the post I have told taimikhan in brief and then he can form a more accurate speculation for the rest.

And NO im not special.. just lucky.


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## Areesh

santro said:


> checked with somebody in the loop I know, they aren't South African, but the information I got was enough to sweep the doubts and put a nice little smile on my face when I heard it.
> Believe me, its much better then what we are speculating about. Nuff said.



If that is true what you are saying. It is party time I guess.


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## air marshal



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## M8R

Having read Santro posts - I have found a lot of credible info which eventually was released in public.So what he says does have credibility.


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## SQ8

Areesh said:


> If that is true what you are saying. It is party time I guess.



No it isn't, still a lot of work to be done..We tend to count 300 chickens with only 4 eggs.


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## MastanKhan

santro said:


> checked with somebody in the loop I know, they aren't South African, but the information I got was enough to sweep the doubts and put a nice little smile on my face when I heard it.
> Believe me, its much better then what we are speculating about. Nuff said.



Hi,

That is more than enough information---atleast I don't want to hear any more. Keep the lid on.


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## humza_313

i heard we are aquiring 4 aew&c from sweden while 1 has arrived... we might not require any further installment in that aircraft from china because it already comes eqquiped.


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## M8R

humza_313 said:


> i heard we are aquiring 4 aew&c from sweden while 1 has arrived... we might not require any further installment in that aircraft from china because it already comes eqquiped.


These are old news dude.We've already got 2 swedish Awacs in Pakistan>Rest will come in 2011.


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## chulheehee

hey 
If that is true what you are saying. It is party time I guess.


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## DANGER-ZONE

humza_313 said:


> i heard we are aquiring 4 aew&c from sweden while 1 has arrived... we might not require any further installment in that aircraft from china because it already comes eqquiped.



hamza Pakistan would have 8 AWA&C in total.Four from Sweden and four from china.Two of them will serve NAVY and six will Serve PAF.
its my guess that two Erieye would be handed over to Navy because its good in Scanning on sea surface as well as on land too.because of the angle of RADAR.
see the PRMO video of ERIEYE


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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


> hamza Pakistan would have 8 AWA&C in total.Four from Sweden and four from china.Two of them will serve NAVY and six will Serve PAF.
> its my guess that two Erieye would be handed over to Navy because its good in Scanning on sea surface as well as on land too.because of the angle of RADAR.
> see the PRMO video of ERIEYE



As per my knowledge the order for Saab-2000 was reduced because the navy opted for E-2C hawkeye 2000 system based on P-3C orion aircraft instead saab-2000 Erieye according to them the reason navy gave was that navy was more comfortable with P-3C orion aircraft and it would be easy for them to maintain as they are operating them for some long years now


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## M8R

The original order for Swedish AWACS was 6 but later reduced to 4.


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## air marshal



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## Super Falcon

Mani2020 said:


> As per my knowledge the order for Saab-2000 was reduced because the navy opted for E-2C hawkeye 2000 system based on P-3C orion aircraft instead saab-2000 Erieye according to them the reason navy gave was that navy was more comfortable with P-3C orion aircraft and it would be easy for them to maintain as they are operating them for some long years now






welll but srill navy did not ordered them 5 years have past they are just sitting doing nothign


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## Luftwaffe

*mani2020..As per my knowledge the order for Saab-2000 was reduced because the navy opted for E-2C hawkeye 2000 system based on P-3C orion aircraft instead saab-2000 Erieye according to them the reason navy gave was that navy was more comfortable with P-3C orion aircraft and it would be easy for them to maintain as they are operating them for some long years now*

Mani2020...
E-2C is unlike P-3C Orion 
The role of P-3C is totally different from AEW&C

I do not know the status of E-2C for PN but i hope PN looks into Chinese Y-8 as a future AEW&C perhaps 2/3 of them.


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## Quwa

An old bit from Kanwa (in 2007), translated/paraphrased by tphuang:


> The other news from kanwa is on J-10/Y-8 AEW. It looks like PAF looks at these two as long term investment. At current time, it's focused on JF-17 and Erieye. Although funding could reduce the number of Erieye to even less than 7. *For Y-8 AEW, PAF hopes to eventually use lessons here to develop it's own AEW platform*


China Air and Naval Power: More on cooperation with Pakistan

Pakistan developing & producing its next-generation AEW&C would certainly be an amazing development if seen through. The ZDK03 AEW&C deal with China does include elements of joint-development and transfer of expertise and perhaps even technology. There is also scope for joint-development with Turkey as they're currently working on phased-array radar technology as well as GENESIS for sensor-fusion, command & control, etc. Plus the fact that Turkish firms are working on the Turkish AEW&C (Wedgetail MESA) program.

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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> *mani2020..As per my knowledge the order for Saab-2000 was reduced because the navy opted for E-2C hawkeye 2000 system based on P-3C orion aircraft instead saab-2000 Erieye according to them the reason navy gave was that navy was more comfortable with P-3C orion aircraft and it would be easy for them to maintain as they are operating them for some long years now*
> 
> Mani2020...
> E-2C is unlike P-3C Orion
> The role of P-3C is totally different from AEW&C
> 
> I do not know the status of E-2C for PN but i hope PN looks into Chinese Y-8 as a future AEW&C perhaps 2/3 of them.



mani is correct - hawkeye 2000 radar fitted on P-3 a/c. i dont know the status of this offer - 3 such a/c were offered to the PN for USD800m. the US Coast Guard uses the same. its called P-3H (I Think!)

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/aircraft/types/lockheed-martin-p-3-orion.htm

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## MZUBAIR

Pakistan purchased 7 *ATR 42-500* for PIA along with 6 Saab 2000. The deal was with 14 Erieye radar (7 with ATR 42-500 and 6 with Saab 2000) in 2006.

Pakistan got 7 *ATR 42-500* but later decreased number of Erieye to 5 or 6 only for SAAB not for ATR 42-500.

So Y not, now Pakistan deal for 7 Erieye for *ATR 42-500*?????

*Click here to view ATR 42-500*

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## DANGER-ZONE

air marshal said:


>



wow...take a look at rare mirage3, it appears to be twin seater and painted in FIGHTER CAMOUFLAGE..


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## SQ8

danger-zone said:


> wow...take a look at rare mirage3, it appears to be twin seater and painted in FIGHTER CAMOUFLAGE..



There is really nothing wrong with that.. believe me..They just decided to paint it that way...and I think it belongs in the tankers section..

As for the sudden brainwaves about the ATR..
The ATR lacks the size and capacity to house the system the PAF was looking for, otherwise MPA ATR's are in service around the globe..
Also.. the PIA was also forced to try the SAAB machine in a bid to get a common maintenance platform. However the aircraft was never the PIA's cup of tea.


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## Bossman

danger-zone said:


> wow...take a look at rare mirage3, it appears to be twin seater and painted in FIGHTER CAMOUFLAGE..



Twin seat versions of aircrafts like Mirages, F7s, and F 16 are almost as capable and in some cases more in combat as their single seat version and are used as such so there is nothing unsual about seeing them in combat colors.


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## Koga Ryu

One of the Chinese web site Google translation(its really bad but some good point)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Earlier, the United Kingdom, "Flight International" Web site broke the news said the Pakistan Air Force since China introduced the ZDK-03 medium early warning aircraft will be delivered before the end of the year. This news soon as the Pakistani media widely reproduced. Analysis that the Pakistan army will get this type of early warning aircraft, and the People's Liberation Army front mounted this empty police -200 AWACS technically closely linked; on the Chinese side is concerned, it is not only a tool for export, but also improve the national air defense system an important part. Some media said, ZDK-03 medium-sized AWACS loved not only by Pakistan, and even Southeast Asian countries in hot pursuit of this early warning aircraft, and expressed the intention to buy, but due to some disputes in the sea area, China has not made clear to the Southeast Asian countries export intention.
The level of R & D with emphasis on early warning aircraft
The development of China's early warning aircraft, has experienced 60 years of the 20th century "Great Leap Forward" and 90 "full introduction of" two stages, but had ended in failure. The former Soviet bombers in transforming the basis of "empty warning 1" testing machine, the performance is poor because of dismount. The latter tried to import from Israel, "Phalcon" early warning aircraft, but the U.S. blocked, Israel in 2001 to terminate the contract. Faced with the grim situation in air defense, early warning aircraft in China R & D only one way of self-reliance.
Published in May this year, Hong Kong, "Asia-Pacific Defense" magazine papers, said the project demonstrated the process, military-industrial sector has been divided on the type of carrier aircraft. Some people think that, given the vast territory, large-scale early warning should be launched directly; while others stressed that, early warning aircraft technical complexity, coupled with Russia may cut off the supply of a large carrier aircraft should be in accordance with the "generation equipment, pre-generation research and development generation" of sound principles first the development of medium-early-warning aircraft to meet the military need; Moreover, China has sufficient accumulation of medium-sized transport aircraft, as the platform for its rapid development.
The fact that since then, decision-making departments to adopt a "two-pronged" approach - a small number of large-scale early warning aircraft for regional early warning, early warning aircraft are a large number of medium-sized production, flexible deployment, and for export. Through the efforts, today's Chinese Air Force also has a large early warning aircraft and air police air police -2,000 -200 medium early warning aircraft, with the strength level of pattern formation.
"New projects" aim at the international level
As for the birth of early warning aircraft made medium-sized domestic and foreign media have also been disclosed in recent years. According to Taiwan's "Global Defense Magazine," saying, in 2001, Shaanxi Aircraft Manufacturing Company received a mandate to require the transport-8C transport aircraft based on the development of special platform that is outside the so-called "high-tech engineering." Collaboration with the Shaanxi Aircraft early warning radar partner research team, by the China Electronics Technology Group, led a research institute.
In 2003, equipped with new radar early warning aircraft first flight success. For confidential consideration, domestic media reported at the time bore more subtle - "The successful development of the model works ... ... for the future of this platform modifications required to improve performance even more good variety of special purpose aircraft, opened up more promising. "
Military parade on National Day last year, -200, and a number of domestic air planes police, together at last public appearance before the world. Hong Kong, "Phoenix Magazine" in the analysis of its performance, said that China learn from the Swedish "Ericsson eyes" the characteristics of radar, the radar system on the use of advanced phased array form, even if 30&#37; of the failure of the launch module to maintain a basic detection function.
Interestingly, carrying "Erieye" radar Sweden "Saab 2000" early warning aircraft, also was included in the Pakistan Air Force's procurement list. Outside in accordance with the basic inference machine, said air marshals -200 base in 200 kilometers away from the continuing activities of 7-9 hours. Patrol, it is usually from 6000 to 7000 m altitude, then the maximum radar detection range of 300 to 450 km, can simultaneously track more than 200 batches of target.
J -10 for the Pakistan army to fight the former station introduced

"Asia-Pacific defense" that the Chinese AWACS air marshals -200 not the end of development, whether in resolving the problem, the military-industrial sector is moving performance of sophisticated goals. Beginning in 2007, the network carrying dishes on the spread of a new type of early warning aircraft photos, this design will help reduce the blind spot detection, may represent the future development of air marshals -200 direction.
Late last year, Pakistan Air Force chief of staff, General Suleiman, said the main force to meet the Pakistan Air Force JF-17 fighter and the future F -10 fighter jets from China's early warning command needs Pakistan to seek complementary to China to buy medium-sized AWACS, aircraft code is ZDK-03. It is noteworthy that export-oriented early warning radar frequency, the number of target tracking, processing capacity is optimized to respond to the pressure of the air force from neighboring countries. Today, the British news media, that Pakistan may import ZDK-03, also showed that domestic medium-sized AWACS very bright future.


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## Donatello

Koga Ryu said:


> One of the Chinese web site Google translation(its really bad but some good point)
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Earlier, the United Kingdom, "Flight International" Web site broke the news said the Pakistan Air Force since China introduced the ZDK-03 medium early warning aircraft will be delivered before the end of the year. This news soon as the Pakistani media widely reproduced. Analysis that the Pakistan army will get this type of early warning aircraft, and the People's Liberation Army front mounted this empty police -200 AWACS technically closely linked; on the Chinese side is concerned, it is not only a tool for export, but also improve the national air defense system an important part. Some media said, ZDK-03 medium-sized AWACS loved not only by Pakistan, and even Southeast Asian countries in hot pursuit of this early warning aircraft, and expressed the intention to buy, but due to some disputes in the sea area, China has not made clear to the Southeast Asian countries export intention.
> The level of R & D with emphasis on early warning aircraft
> The development of China's early warning aircraft, has experienced 60 years of the 20th century "Great Leap Forward" and 90 "full introduction of" two stages, but had ended in failure. The former Soviet bombers in transforming the basis of "empty warning 1" testing machine, the performance is poor because of dismount. The latter tried to import from Israel, "Phalcon" early warning aircraft, but the U.S. blocked, Israel in 2001 to terminate the contract. Faced with the grim situation in air defense, early warning aircraft in China R & D only one way of self-reliance.
> Published in May this year, Hong Kong, "Asia-Pacific Defense" magazine papers, said the project demonstrated the process, military-industrial sector has been divided on the type of carrier aircraft. Some people think that, given the vast territory, large-scale early warning should be launched directly; while others stressed that, early warning aircraft technical complexity, coupled with Russia may cut off the supply of a large carrier aircraft should be in accordance with the "generation equipment, pre-generation research and development generation" of sound principles first the development of medium-early-warning aircraft to meet the military need; Moreover, China has sufficient accumulation of medium-sized transport aircraft, as the platform for its rapid development.
> The fact that since then, decision-making departments to adopt a "two-pronged" approach - a small number of large-scale early warning aircraft for regional early warning, early warning aircraft are a large number of medium-sized production, flexible deployment, and for export. Through the efforts, today's Chinese Air Force also has a large early warning aircraft and air police air police -2,000 -200 medium early warning aircraft, with the strength level of pattern formation.
> "New projects" aim at the international level
> As for the birth of early warning aircraft made medium-sized domestic and foreign media have also been disclosed in recent years. According to Taiwan's "Global Defense Magazine," saying, in 2001, Shaanxi Aircraft Manufacturing Company received a mandate to require the transport-8C transport aircraft based on the development of special platform that is outside the so-called "high-tech engineering." Collaboration with the Shaanxi Aircraft early warning radar partner research team, by the China Electronics Technology Group, led a research institute.
> In 2003, equipped with new radar early warning aircraft first flight success. For confidential consideration, domestic media reported at the time bore more subtle - "The successful development of the model works ... ... for the future of this platform modifications required to improve performance even more good variety of special purpose aircraft, opened up more promising. "
> Military parade on National Day last year, -200, and a number of domestic air planes police, together at last public appearance before the world. Hong Kong, "Phoenix Magazine" in the analysis of its performance, said that China learn from the Swedish "Ericsson eyes" the characteristics of radar, the radar system on the use of advanced phased array form, even if 30% of the failure of the launch module to maintain a basic detection function.
> Interestingly, carrying "Erieye" radar Sweden "Saab 2000" early warning aircraft, also was included in the Pakistan Air Force's procurement list. Outside in accordance with the basic inference machine, said air marshals -200 base in 200 kilometers away from the continuing activities of 7-9 hours. Patrol, it is usually from 6000 to 7000 m altitude, then the maximum radar detection range of 300 to 450 km, can simultaneously track more than 200 batches of target.
> J -10 for the Pakistan army to fight the former station introduced
> 
> "Asia-Pacific defense" that the Chinese AWACS air marshals -200 not the end of development, whether in resolving the problem, the military-industrial sector is moving performance of sophisticated goals. Beginning in 2007, the network carrying dishes on the spread of a new type of early warning aircraft photos, this design will help reduce the blind spot detection, may represent the future development of air marshals -200 direction.
> Late last year, Pakistan Air Force chief of staff, General Suleiman, said the main force to meet the Pakistan Air Force JF-17 fighter and the future F -10 fighter jets from China's early warning command needs Pakistan to seek complementary to China to buy medium-sized AWACS, aircraft code is ZDK-03. It is noteworthy that export-oriented early warning radar frequency, the number of target tracking, processing capacity is optimized to respond to the pressure of the air force from neighboring countries. Today, the British news media, that Pakistan may import ZDK-03, also showed that domestic medium-sized AWACS very bright future.





Man, thanks for the post but the translation thing, made it sound like a lot more worse than it actually is........


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## Donatello

santro said:


> There is really nothing wrong with that.. believe me..They just decided to paint it that way...and I think it belongs in the tankers section..
> 
> As for the sudden brainwaves about the ATR..
> The ATR lacks the size and capacity to house the system the PAF was looking for, otherwise MPA ATR's are in service around the globe..
> Also.. the PIA was also forced to try the SAAB machine in a bid to get a common maintenance platform. However the aircraft was never the PIA's cup of tea.



I don't know why a professional organization like PAF would even bother meddling their minds with as corrupt and in-efficient organization as PIA.

I mean, PAF didn't buy aerial refuelers from Boeing or Airbus.....but the IL 78s which are totally new to us...so i doubt if the maintenance would have actually been an issue.

maybe they would have thought of volume discount on aircrafts and their spare parts......


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## fatman17

MZUBAIR said:


> Pakistan purchased 7 *ATR 42-500* for PIA along with 6 Saab 2000. The deal was with 14 Erieye radar (7 with ATR 42-500 and 6 with Saab 2000) in 2006.
> 
> Pakistan got 7 *ATR 42-500* but later decreased number of Erieye to 5 or 6 only for SAAB not for ATR 42-500.
> 
> So Y not, now Pakistan deal for 7 Erieye for *ATR 42-500*?????
> 
> *Click here to view ATR 42-500*



there was never a deal for erieye fitted on the ATR. additionally 14 erieyes were never considered!!!


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## MZUBAIR

Bossman said:


> Twin seat versions of aircrafts like Mirages, *F7s,* and F 16 are almost as capable and in some cases more in combat as their single seat version and are used as such so there is nothing unsual about seeing them in combat colors.



My Appology, But I never saw twin seater F-7.


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## Quwa

http://www.historyofpia.com/board/may_09/90_609_may30.jpg

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## Arsalan

well friends, i know that the AWE&C side have been a bit silent for some time now but does this really meant we start discussing Mirage Refueling and F7 twin seaters over here???

regards!


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## Arsalan

i am sorry as i have not is continues touch with this thread for some time.
can someone update about:

Number of Erieye fitted planes we have *received*
what is there current ststus? have they seen asny actio in some exercises?
Squadron and based in??

if some one can updated on this i will be really thank full and can keep pace with thread form here on...

regards!


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## Rajput Warrior

I think 2 have been recieved and they had been used in exercise High Mark as well.
The chinese awac will come this year.


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## Peregrine

I think we have received two of the four Saab 2000 Airborne Warning & Control System (AWACS) so far. The second one was delivered to PAF in April 2010.


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## Arsalan

Peregrine said:


> I think we have received two of the four Saab 2000 Airborne Warning & Control System (AWACS) so far. The second one was delivered to PAF in April 2010.



yes, i have been looking for this information since i posted the above post.
i have checked with my frined, the one who is responsible of 40% of my knowledge about PAF 

well it is confirmed that PAF have got two system. they are operational and most probably stationed at Sargodha!





regards!

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## TaimiKhan

2 systems of Saab Erieye received and as of now both are stationed at Kamra, going under further testing, evaluation and training.


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## khawajafarid

very good machine

---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------

awacs is now a days necessary for a countaries defence


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## Arsalan

the PAF Erieye saw there first action at high Mark 2010











enjoy!!

regards!

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## truepakistani17

TaimiKhan said:


> 2 systems of Saab Erieye received and as of now both are stationed at Kamra, going under further testing, evaluation and training.



and these are in addition tothe one SAAB plane initially received for crew training. 
i mean we have now two oprational Erieye systems, two eyes in sky!!


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## truepakistani17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the PAF Erieye saw there first action at high Mark 2010
> 
> YouTube - Pakistan Air Force exercise held to show capabilities - Exercise High Mark 2010
> 
> YouTube - PAF Exercise High Mark 2010 - DAWN News Channel Report
> 
> enjoy!!
> 
> regards!



all old vedios sir but still worth watching for a second time. really make us proud!!


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## TOPGUN

Iam just wondering why aren't the two saab aircrafts been painted in our PAF schme as of yet? and plus not further news on them as they been put under a lid.


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## Donatello

TOPGUN said:


> Iam just wondering why aren't the two saab aircrafts been painted in our PAF schme as of yet? and plus not further news on them as they been put under a lid.



I think after the Mumbai fiasco PAF wanted the AEWACs as quickly as possible. The Sukhoi 30 Radar and lack of any MLU or BLK 52 f-16s would leave us with a serious drawback in the air. Ground based radars cannot be dependent upon as they might need to be switched off for anti-radiation missiles being homed on them by India.

In this scenario our Shorter range radars on Mirage and F-7 would desperately need AWACs to vector them or coordinate.

So my guess that they wanted AWACs crew trained and aircraft tested as soon as possible.

Plus i don't really know how much they really want to paint them. I mean you can look at other nations' AWACs and see they are just plain simple.


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## wangrong




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## Donatello

wangrong said:


>




So which of these is for PAF, because we still don't know much about the Chinese AWACs that PAF is getting, some say by end of this year.


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## Super Falcon

hope we get our remaining awacs planned ordered from china sooner than later pakistan need tem darely dont know where is the deal of hawkeye system went till know nothing came any news about this


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## Arsalan

Super Falcon said:


> hope we get our remaining awacs planned ordered from china sooner than later pakistan need tem darely dont know where is the deal of hawkeye system went till know nothing came any news about this



perhaps PAF want to further study the Erieye in detail and render some input to KJ-200 modification as per our requirment. 

this is how we usually do things!!
 


regards!


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

no new pictures or updates???


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## Abu Zolfiqar

mjnaushad said:


> awac.jpg picture by mjnaushad - Photobucket
> 
> Just made this for ya......very rare ....watch it then i'll delete the post as its not funny thread.



ahh yes. E-3 Sentry 

saw some of the other pictures there too, did a little spying.

where can i get ''troll spray''


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## TOPGUN

Btw what's going with the chinesse awacs aircraft and about the remaining saab aircraft?


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## Donatello

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ahh yes. E-3 Sentry
> 
> saw some of the other pictures there too, did a little spying.
> 
> where can i get ''troll spray''



What about the radars to be fitted on Naval P3C orions....?

We haven't heard anything about them?


----------



## Arsalan

Rajput Warrior said:


> I think 2 have been recieved and they had been used in exercise High Mark as well.
> The chinese awac will come this year.



that how they report it:

*



PAF received the second of four SAAB 2000 Aireye, Airborne Early warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft, on 24 April 2010. The first aircraft was received in December 2009. The last two examples should be delivered before the end of this year.
(23 May 10)

Click to expand...

*
regards!


----------



## Arsalan

penumbra said:


> What about the radars to be fitted on Naval P3C orions....?
> 
> We haven't heard anything about them?



we have got two more upgraded P-3C in May this year. are you talking about these or is there something else also going on?
here is the news report:



> *On 1 May 2010, two more upgraded P-3C surveillance aircraft, were handed over to the Pak Navy in a ceremony in USA. Pak Navy already has two upgraded P-3Cs, a further three examples will be upgraded and handed over to Pak Navy by 2012.
> (23 May 10)*



regards!


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## Manticore




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## Pk_Thunder

P-3 Orion new pic






http://my-aviation-photography.blogspot.com/2010/09/p3c-orion-pakistan-navy.html

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## Arsalan

TOPGUN said:


> Btw what's going with the chinesse awacs aircraft and about the remaining saab aircraft?



PAF received the second of four SAAB 2000 Aireye, Airborne Early warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft, on 24 April 2010. The first aircraft was received in December 2009. The last two examples should be delivered before the end of this year.
(23 May 10)


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## Arsalan

On 1 May 2010, two more upgraded P-3C surveillance aircraft, were handed over to the Pak Navy in a ceremony in USA. Pak Navy already has two upgraded P-3Cs, a further three examples will be upgraded and handed over to Pak Navy by 2012. 
(23 May 10) 



> American security company Lockheed Martin has recently delivered two of seven upgraded P-3C maritime surveillance aircraft for Pakistan under the U.S. Government&#8217;s Foreign Military Sales program.
> 
> The most recent aircraft delivery occurred on Jan 7 to the Naval Air Station in Jacksonville, Florida, for subsequent transfer to Pakistan. Lockheed Martin delivered the first plane in October 2009, the company said Thursday.
> 
> Headquartered in Bethesda, Maryland, the global security company is upgrading the P-3Cs aircraft and mission systems and providing maintenance under a 2006 contract from the U.S. Navy&#8217;s Naval Air Systems Command.
> 
> The aircraft support anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare missions and will enhance Pakistan&#8217;s ability to conduct maritime surveillance in littoral and deep-water environments.
> 
> The aircraft are designed to have a single integrated tactical picture of the battle space, drawing upon data from aircraft sensors and information from other platforms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These aircraft incorporate a variety of enhanced features including communications, electro-optic and infrared systems, data management, controls and displays, mission computers and acoustic processing,&#8217; said Mike Fralen, director for Lockheed Martin Mission Systems and Sensors maritime surveillance programs.
> 
> The P-3 is the primary maritime patrol and reconnaissance aircraft operated by the U.S. Navy and 16 allied countries. Its roles include anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, surveillance and reconnaissance, search and rescue, drug interdiction, economic zone patrol, airborne early warning and electronic warfare



there is no news about the Hawkeye system?

regards!


----------



## TOPGUN

I wanted to know whats going with the chinesse awacs aircraft we were suppose to get any new news?


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## Arsalan

TOPGUN said:


> I wanted to know whats going with the chinesse awacs aircraft we were suppose to get any new news?



naah!!
dont lie to me :


> Originally Posted by *TOPGUN *
> Btw what's going with the chinesse awacs aircraft and about the remaining saab aircraft?



yaar, atleast i answered half of your quesition  
hahaha...

well brother, for KJ-200, they are supposed to make sort of debut on the Airshow China 2010.



> The Organizer of Airshow China 2010 is glad to announce that the preparatory work for the show is well under way with major achievements in terms of space sales and aircraft display. The total exhibition space has far surpassed that of Airshow China 2008-leading to the erection of a 3000 sqm temporary hall to house the increased exhibitors.
> 
> A new breakthrough has been seen in domestic participation, with China North Industries Group Corporation, to make its debut at Airshow China 2010 by setting up the China Weaponry Hall to showcase the homemade aviation equipment, airborne and air defense products, civil aviation and information technology. Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China, Ltd. (COMAC), the developer of China¡¯s large aircraft, has ordered a stand to present its image at Airshow China for the first time. China Aviation Industry Corporation, China Aerospace Science & Technology Corporation, and China Aerospace Science & Industry Corporation will once again display the most advanced aviation and aerospace products and technology. The PLA Air Force, a new member of the sponsor team of Airshow China, is set to participate in Airshow China 2010 with a bigger size, bringing with a majority of aircraft displayed at the 60th National Day Parade including the August 1st Aerobatic Team newly equipped with J10 Fighters and a series of state-of-the-art equipment. In addition, both new and regular domestic exhibitors have shown greater interest in participation. Statistics of the confirmed orders show that most of the regular exhibitors have increased the exhibiting space.
> 
> The overseas sales also see growth, featured by early and increased orders from the regular international exhibitors. By now, nearly all regular exhibitors have signed up with Airshow China 2010, including Russian Technologies State Corporation, ROSCOSMOS(IASP), Gifas, Safran, AgustaWestland, Diamond Aircraft, Kulite Sensor China Inc., Tyco Electronics, Parker Aerospace that have booked bigger stands. The show also registered a number of new faces, such as Carlisle Interconnect Technologies, Pelican Products Inc., Groen Brothers Aviation Inc., Carpenter Technology Corporation, Jet Mid West, Stanley Works (Shanghai) Co., Ltd., HELILITE, Schmolz-Bickenbach Group, DMG China, Tital GmbH, Acciaierie Valbruna SpA, D. Marchiori SRL, LLC Research and Production Enterprise PRIMA and FED Corporation. After years of absence from Airshow China, the world famous aviation enterprise Honeywell is also coming back to the Airshow China stage.
> Various models of homemade aircraft that represent self-owned intellectual property right and state-of-the-art technology will make their debut at Airshow China 2010 and perform demo. flight, such as the ARJ-21¡ªa homemade regional jet made by COMAC, the Seagull 300¡ªa new style amphibious plane assembled in Zhuhai; the helicopter AC-313 which makes its successful first flight on March 18, 2010, the JF-17, a fighter jointly developed by China and Pakistan, *the KJ-200 early warning aircraft *and the MA600 regional jet.
> 
> The overseas aircraft participation is also encouraging. The first home assembled A320 of Airbus, Lineage 1000 and Legacy 600 of Embraer, AW109 of AgustaWestland, Citation Mustang and Grand Caravan of Cessna, have confirmed their presence at Airshow China 2010. Other leading aircraft manufactures such as Bombardier, Gulfstream, Hawker Beech, Dassault Falcon and Cessana are also expected to display their main models. Besides, the organizer of Airshow China is trying to bring in world famous aircraft like A380 and Su-35.
> The eye-catching aircraft display is also featured by a large variety of helicopters. Eurocopter¡¯s EC225, Sikorsky¡¯s S-76, a 12 seat all weather civil transport helicopter and the latest heavy duty S-92, joined by homemade Z-8, Z-9, and AC-313, the biggest helicopter ever made by China, will be among those present at Airshow China 2010.
> 
> In another development, the Pakistan Air Force aerobatic team ¡®Sherdil¡¯ is set to stage thrilling maneuvers at Airshow China 2010 in the format of 4 K-8 trainers-an advanced military aircraft jointly developed by China and Pakistan. The ¡®August 1st¡¯ aerobatic team of the Chinese Air Force, newly equipped with J-10 fighters, will demonstrate a 6 aircraft formation on the sky of Zhuhai that brings the audiences a completely new visual impact.
> 
> The professional scenario of Airshow China 2010 is to be highlighted by a larger variety of high-profile conferences and forums. By joining hands with the Business Conventions International (BCI), a France based events & meetings specialist, Airshow China 2010 launches the first Airshow China B to B Meetings in an effort to provide a one-to-one meeting platform for vendors and buyers from global aviation industries and promote business exchanges and cooperation among the show¡¯s exhibitors. To reflect China¡¯s booming general aviation market, Zhuhai Airshow Co., Ltd and AVIC General Aircraft Co., Ltd jointly initiate the Airshow China General Aviation Industry International Forum, on which policy makers, scholars, and senior managers from the global general aviation industry will be invited to discuss on China¡¯s general aviation prospects. Dedicated to matchmaking forums & seminars, Zhuhai Airshow Co. Ltd. has set up a joint venture on a risk share basis with News Center of the Administration of Science and Industry for National Defense, and China Media Group. The new entity, making full use of the three institutes¡¯ respective advantages, has developed a variety of topics that will be presented as part of the Airshow China 2010 Aviation & Aerospace Summit.
> 
> In addition, Airshow China 2010 will continue to expand the Buyer Program, which enables the show¡¯s sponsors and supporters to invite more high-caliber trade visitors, thus improving the trade atmosphere of the show.
> The Organizer of Airshow China 2010 spares no efforts in improving the show management and service, in a bid to build up an ideal destination for exhibitors and visitors. Effective measures have been taken to maintain the show site order by scrutinizing those disqualified trade visitors and exhibitors. Thanks to support from the Zhuhai local government, the exhibition site has been further renovated, with a new roof installed to the main exhibition hall, chairs and toilets set up on the show ground for visitors, and the land around planted with trees and grasses. All these renovations have contributed to a better show venue that boasts convenient access and environmentally friendly facilities. To provide quality services at the show site, Airshow China 2010 has also contracted a dozen of top brand service providers such as the Swisher HK for cleaning, the Cirkcle K for shopping, and the Byone Global Food (a Beijing 2008 Olympic Games certified contractor) for catering.
> 
> Airshow China 2010 is to take place in Zhuhai, Guangdong, China, from Nov. 16th -21st, 2010.



i hope we will see thing moving after that display and anticipate news to start comming after the event.

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

as for news, i dont know if it had been already discussed but there had been some changes made to the plane (Y-8) design after one crashed back in 2006.

the improved design captured in 2009, flying over bejing show the addition of vertical stableizer added to tail's horizontal wings.

here is the report:


> *Old Design*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *New Imporved Design*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some close pictures of the KJ-200 AEW Aircrafts flying above Beijing for future air parade have displayed that Chinese Air Force has slightly improved the aerodynamic configuration of tail control surfaces. The comparision of above pictures distinguished the newly-found vertical tails separately added on horizontal tail. Perhaps this improvement can provide strongful flight stability after the KJ-200 crash accident on June 3rd, 2006.



regards!

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## TOPGUN

arsalanaslam123 said:


> naah!!
> dont lie to me :
> 
> 
> yaar, atleast i answered half of your quesition
> hahaha...
> 
> well brother, for KJ-200, they are supposed to make sort of debut on the Airshow China 2010.
> 
> 
> 
> i hope we will see thing moving after that display and anticipate news to start comming after the event.
> 
> regards!



Nahi kya ? what did i lie about yaar?

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## TangoViking

Probably of positive interest for PAF. 

*Saab Gets a Second Customer for Saab 2000 Erieye Airborne Early Warning (AEW) System*

Saab PR

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## TaimiKhan

TangoViking said:


> Probably of positive interest for PAF.
> 
> *Saab Gets a Second Customer for Saab 2000 Erieye Airborne Early Warning (AEW) System*
> 
> Saab PR



Nice going for Saab. 

Wonder who the client is as the order seems to be huge.


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## kursed

It's one of the Gulf countries.


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## notorious_eagle

Its most likely UAE, i remember reading that they were negotiating a contract with SAAB. Makes sense for them to choose a non US vendor to diversify their defence forces. PAF certainly has certainly delivered a master stroke by acquiring these birds, i was talking during Summer to someone who is closely related to the project and all he had was praise for the Erieyes in regards to its performance. According to him, to this date these are the most advanced versions of the Erieye and serve perfectly well for PAF's doctrine.


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## TangoViking

UAE bought two SwAF second hand Saab340-Erieye last year and these are in the process of being delivered. UAE bought these as interim solution and plan on a flyoff between more advanced solutions including Saab 2000 version in the future. 

Either they gave up on that fly-off idea for a competition with the Americans and went with Saab again since learning more on the new version or it's someone else. Most likely in the gulf yes... Saudi Arabia has for instance been interested for a long time.


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## Pk_Thunder

I have come across another P-3 Orion pic,thought to share

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## SQ8

Too many Orion pics in the wrong section.
Please move to naval section.


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## Arsalan

*The rollout ceremony of first of four Chinese ZDK-03 airborne warning and control systems (AWACS) aircrafts for the Pakistan Air Force was held at Hanzhong in China today. *

The rollout coincided with President Asif Ali Zardari's visit to China &#8211; his sixth since assuming the position in 2008.*PAF chief Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman was the chief guest at the ceremony*, which was attended by the Commander of the PLA Air Force and other military and civil officials of China.

The PAF signed a contract in 2008 with China Electronics Technology Group Corporation for the joint development of four ZDK-03 AWACS aircraft configured to Pakistan's specifications.
The ZDK-03 is an advanced AWACS with sophisticated integrated sensors and communications suite, PAF said in a statement.

In his speech at the rollout, Air Chief Marshal Suleman described the event as "*another milestone in the exemplary history of cooperation between Pakistan and China*&#8221;.
This AWACS will strengthen the PAF's capabilities to maintain "peace with honour in the region", he said.





*APP71-13 CHINA: November 13 - Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff at the rollout ceremony of first PAF ZDK-03 AWACS Aircraft. APP *


The AWACS is part of PAF's overall strategy of transforming itself into a "lean and technologically advanced air force", Suleman said.The PAF will not spare any effort to make the defence of the country impregnable, he added.

CETC Chairman Wang Zhigang said the induction of the AWACS by the PAF will have a "positive impact on regional stability, peace and prosperity as well as on the close bond between the two military forces and two countries".

The PAF has also received two of four Saab-2000 AWACs aircraft ordered from Sweden.
The remaining two aircraft equipped with the Erieye radar system are expected to be delivered later this year. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...out-awacs-aircrafts-pakistan-air-force-3.html

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## Arsalan

*Military Strategy*
*ZDK-03: Pakistani-Chinese jointly developed AWACS fly
November 13, 2010*

The roll out ceremony of first of four Chinese ZDK-03 airborne warning and control systems (AWACS) aircraft for the Pakistan Air Force

Pakistan has received its second Erieye radar-equipped Saab 2000, has accepted its first Shaanxi ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control system aircraft.

*Islamabad has four ZDK-03s on order*, with deliveries due to start later this year, say air force sources. The type is a new variant of the Shaanxi Y8 AEW&C aircraft designed specifically for Pakistan.

The Chinese aircraft is powered by four turboprop engines and has a greater range than offered by the Saab Microwave Systems Erieye, the sources say.

The air force recently received its second Saab 2000 surveillance aircraft, and anticipates that it will receive its remaining two in the second and third quarters of this year. Flight Global. Pakistan to get Chinese AEW&C aircraft this year By Leithen Francis

*The roll out ceremony of first of four Chinese ZDK-03 airborne warning and control systems (AWACS) aircraft for the Pakistan Air Force was held at Hanzhong in China today. *The roll out coincided with President Asif Ali Zardaris visit to China  his sixth since assuming the position in 2008.

PAF chief Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman was the chief guest at the ceremony, which was attended by the Commander of the PLA Air Force and other military and civil officials of China.

The PAF signed a contract in 2008 with China Electronics Technology Group Corporation for the joint development of four ZDK-03 AWACS aircraft configured to Pakistans specifications.

The ZDK-03 is an advanced AWACS with sophisticated integrated sensors and communications suite, PAF said in a statement.

In his speech at the roll out, Air Chief Marshal Suleman described the event as another milestone in the exemplary history of cooperation between Pakistan and China.

This AWACS will strengthen the PAFs capabilities to maintain peace with honour in the region, he said.

The AWACS is part of PAFs overall strategy of transforming itself into a lean and technologically advanced air force, Suleman said.

The PAF will not spare any effort to make the defence of the country impregnable, he added.

CETC Chairman Wang Zhigang said the induction of the AWACS by the PAF will have a positive impact on regional stability, peace and prosperity as well as on the close bond between the two military forces and two countries.

*The PAF has also received two of four Saab-2000 AWACs aircraft ordered from Sweden.*

*The remaining two aircraft equipped with the Erieye radar system are expected to be delivered later this year.*

With the induction of the Swedish system, PAF has become one of the few air forces in the world to have Airborne Early Warning capability. Besides detecting high- and medium-altitude aircraft, this state-of-the-art system is also capable of detecting low-level flying objects over land and sea at extended ranges. The system is capable of picking even the surface targets over the sea. By virtue of these features, PAF would be able to boost its operational capability manifold by achieving requisite early warning for efficient and meaningful air defence of its airspace.

The Erieye AEW&C mission system radar is an active, phased-array, pulse-Doppler sensor that can feed an on board operator architecture or down link data (via an associated data link subsystem) to a ground-based air defence network. The system employs a large aperture, dual-sided antenna array housed in a dorsal plank fairing. The antenna is fixed, and the beam is electronically scanned, which provides for improved detection and significantly enhanced tracking performance compared with radar-dome antenna systems.Erieye detects and tracks air and sea targets out to the horizon (and beyond due to anomalous propagation)instrumented range has been measured at 450 km.

Typical detection range against fighter-sized targets is approximately 350 km, in a 150° broadside sector, both sides of the aircraft. Outside these sectors, performance is reduced in forward and aft directions.Other system features include:Adaptive waveform generation (including digital, phase-coded pulse compression), signal processing and target tracking,Track While Scan (TWS)Low side lobe values (throughout the systems angular coverage)Low- and medium-pulse repetition frequency operating modes Frequency agility Air-to-air and sea surveillance modes Target radar cross-section display The radar operates as a medium- to high-PRF pulse-Doppler, solid-state radar, in E/F-band (3 GHz), incorporating 192 two-way transmit/receive modules that combine to produce a pencil beam, steered as required within the operating 150° sector each side of the aircraft (one side at a time). It is understood that Erieye has some ability to detect aircraft in the 30° sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, but has no track capability in this sector

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## Kompromat

i cannot understand the Term "Co developed"


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## Arsalan

Black Blood said:


> i cannot understand the Term "Co developed"



yeap 
well one thing can be stated at this point of time, the rolls out was atteded by PAF chairman, it was stated to be indyucted into PAF at time of roll out, it seems that PAF will be fully involved in flight testing and eveluation. 

the system cannot be completely inducted at time of roll out and declared operation ready, there will be flight tests. the attendance of PAF at roll out point that we will be involved in these test and trails.

that is good, perhaps we can figure out some extra requirment if necessary and modify the future plance accordingly.

Pakistan part/role in development, i dont have a hint of it as yet...

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## fatman17

this variant is 'pak-specific' just like F-7PG, F-20 (in future), JFT whereby PAF pilots and technicians are involved in the 'development' phase of these aircrafts. the pilots flight-test these planes, give their 'inputs' and the relevant changes are incorporated.

ACmdr K/Tufail was a 'test-pilot' for the F-7PG. their inputs incorporated at 10-12 changes in the F-7PG before they were delivered to the PAF. similarly for the AWACS, and other weapons platforms.

this is what i understand for 'co-developed'

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## Abu Zolfiqar

^^^^^^

well said mota man

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## DANGER-ZONE

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ^^^^^^
> 
> well said mota man



hahahaha... with apologies


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## fatman17

*ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle*

Variant fitted with AESA radar specifically for export to the Pakistan Air Force

The ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle is based upon the KJ-200 'Balance Beam'

ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle 

Pakistan Air Force
D;0
Cu;0
On Order;4

- Note: An order for 4 aircraft, reportedly to the value of around $280 million, was signed in December 2008. Deliveries were originally expected to commence during 2010, but the first aircraft destined for the Pakistan AF wasn't rolled-out until 13th November 2010.

AFI

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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> this variant is 'pak-specific' just like F-7PG, F-20 (in future), JFT whereby PAF pilots and technicians are involved in the 'development' phase of these aircrafts. the pilots flight-test these planes, give their 'inputs' and the relevant changes are incorporated.
> 
> *ACmdr K/Tufail was a 'test-pilot' for the F-7PG.* their inputs incorporated at 10-12 changes in the F-7PG before they were delivered to the PAF. similarly for the AWACS, and other weapons platforms.
> 
> this is what i understand for 'co-developed'



One of the Best Pilots PAF has Produced.


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## ussad

pakistan needs limited awacs...like 4 can do da job...because our airspace iis to small.... northern Air Command and southern air command requires them...

ZDK-03 advantage is that it can stay up in the air longer as compare to the SAAB-2000 and therefore is usefull... but the problem is that it needs to be maintained alot and it eats fuel alot....

besides Chinese equipment and spare parts r easily available.

_Assad
astroaviator.com


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## TaimiKhan

ussad said:


> pakistan needs limited awacs...like 4 can do da job...because our airspace iis to small.... northern Air Command and southern air command requires them...
> 
> ZDK-03 advantage is that it can stay up in the air longer as compare to the SAAB-2000 and therefore is usefull... but the problem is that it needs to be maintained alot and it eats fuel alot....
> 
> besides Chinese equipment and spare parts r easily available.
> 
> _Assad
> astroaviator.com



No, 4 can't do the job. We need atleast 8-12 AWACS in service, as 3-4 are needed to be in the air during times of war or emergency, to provide non stop coverage, as these aircrafts need to land, get refueled, operational maintenance requirements and other stuff. So, need extra ones, which can replace the ones who are done with their time in air and need to be grounded for maintenance and stuff, so this cycle will keep on going, as wars can be 2 weeks+, thus non stop they are gonna be flying, so extra planes are needed. 

Plus, if the PAF ones have the P&W made engines, then we not need to worry about fuel consumption a lot, as P&T engines are not fuel consuming headaches.


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## Luftwaffe

As fatman17 said, ZDK-03 has western powerplants from Canada. _US_ or not it is a North American powerplant specifically Canada. Canada is very matured developed experienced manufacturer of powerplants. 

So we don't need to worry about alot of fuel consumption.

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## Safriz

TaimiKhan said:


> No, 4 can't do the job. We need atleast 8-12 AWACS in service, as 3-4 are needed to be in the air during times of war or emergency, to provide non stop coverage, as these aircrafts need to land, get refueled, operational maintenance requirements and other stuff. So, need extra ones, which can replace the ones who are done with their time in air and need to be grounded for maintenance and stuff, so this cycle will keep on going, as wars can be 2 weeks+, thus non stop they are gonna be flying, so extra planes are needed.
> 
> Plus, if the PAF ones have the P&W made engines, then we not need to worry about fuel consumption a lot, as P&T engines are not fuel consuming headaches.



They need to land for fuel and maintenance,and don't forget that these planes also get shot down

Having a few extras will always help.


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## TaimiKhan

Luftwaffe said:


> As fatman17 said, ZDK-03 has western powerplants from Canada. _US_ or not it is a North American powerplant specifically Canada. Canada is very matured developed experienced manufacturer of powerplants.
> 
> So we don't need to worry about alot of fuel consumption.



Just slight correction, P&W Canada is a subsidiary company of P&W USA, thus technically, the engine manufacturer is US, though it has the some manufacturing base/plant in the Canada.

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## air marshal

*Induction of China made AEW&C to bring improvement in PAF defence operation: Rao*

ZHUHAI, NOV 21 (APP): The introduction of Chinas made ZDK-03 Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft will bring a revolution in our air defence operation, said Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) here. 

He expressed these views in an interview with APP on the sides lines of the 8th China Aviation and Aerospace exhibition.

The air show that held at Chinas southern coastal city of Zhuhai concluded on Sunday.

Before arriving here, the PAF Chief attended the roll-out ceremony held in Hanzhong for first Shaanxi ZDK-03 Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft designed specifically for Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

PAF has plans to induct a total of four Shaanxi ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft in its inventory.

Those countries having no AEW&C aircraft they mostly rely on ground base radar system. The ground base radar system, he said has very serious limitations in terms of their surveillance and detections.

On the contrary, he said that AEW&C has the capability of detection for hundreds of miles.

Highlighting the importance of the AEW&C, Rao Qamar said that it can detect quite early any object flying from the enemy side and you can take action to counter the threat.

So, the Air chief Marshal said that it is a revolution that will come in PAF air defence operation after induction of AEW&C aircrafts.

There are very few countries in the world having AEW&C technology using in their air forces, he noted.

A proud Air Marshal pointed out that PAF will now also join the rank of these countries.

He said that the delivery of some of the AEW&C aircraft from Sweden has started, but the Chinese aircraft will begin joining PAF from the first quarter of the next year.


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## air marshal

YouTube - Chinese ZDK-03 AWACS aircraft for Pakistan Air Force: Roll out ceremony held in China


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## Proud to be Pakistani

Sorry to go off topic. Just saw some videos of the Chinese Aviation show and i think that the JF-17 RD-93D engine, smoke issue is still not addressed completely. It was giving smoke.


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## fatman17

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Sorry to go off topic. Just saw some videos of the Chinese Aviation show and i think that the JF-17 RD-93D engine, smoke issue is still not addressed completely. It was giving smoke.



there was smoke at take-off but during the air drill, no smoke was detected. - looks normal to me


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## Indestructible

fatman17 said:


> there was smoke at take-off but during the air drill, no smoke was detected. - looks normal to me



There WAS smoke during the drill.


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## fatman17

Indestructible said:


> There WAS smoke during the drill.



so whats your point??? u seem to be the expert here!


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## Indestructible

fatman17 said:


> so whats your point??? u seem to be the expert here!



Sir! Meant no disrespect and no intent to be rude  I already posted in the JF-17 forum about the smoke but no one answered. The plane did smoke a bit as you can see in the video but I saw a similar video of F-18 during an airshow. F-18's engine released some smoke when making turns like JF-17. Could you please explain why does this happen?

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## fatman17

Indestructible said:


> Sir! Meant no disrespect and no intent to be rude  I already posted in the JF-17 forum about the smoke but no one answered. The plane did smoke a bit as you can see in the video but I saw a similar video of F-18 during an airshow. F-18's engine released some smoke when making turns like JF-17. Could you please explain why does this happen?



i am not a aero expert, but when fuel and air 'mix and burn' it smokes - all engines 'smoke'.


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## MastanKhan

Indestructible said:


> Sir! Meant no disrespect and no intent to be rude  I already posted in the JF-17 forum about the smoke but no one answered. The plane did smoke a bit as you can see in the video but I saw a similar video of F-18 during an airshow. F-18's engine released some smoke when making turns like JF-17. Could you please explain why does this happen?



Hi,

Engines smoke----it is not a big deal----it is not like piston engines where if you have black smoke then you are worried of excessive fuel burning---and if you have blue smoke then either you have weak rings or bad valves---so---it is not a sign of a bad engine---

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## F86 Saber

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Engines smoke----it is not a big deal----it is not like piston engines where if you have black smoke then you are worried of excessive fuel burning---and if you have blue smoke then either you have weak rings or bad valves---so---it is not a sign of a bad engine---



I think Mr. Chogy explained the difference between smoking and non smoking missiles so does the same theory apply for jets as well? i.e they'll be easy to detect if they smoke?

But i guess with all the long range RADAR's and the AEWACS flying around detecting with the naked eye doesn't matter much....

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## ice_man

can anybody shed some light on why pakistan changed its mind to go from the ERIEYE type of configuration for the chinese awacs to a more "dish" or E2 type configuration? I am sure the "dish" doesn't rotate it possibly cannot given the size of the Y8 & drag issues.


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## TaimiKhan

ice_man said:


> can anybody shed some light on why pakistan changed its mind to go from the ERIEYE type of configuration for the chinese awacs to a more "dish" or E2 type configuration? I am sure the "dish" doesn't rotate it possibly cannot given the size of the Y8 & drag issues.



Its dish can and does rotates and has 2-sided radar antenna configuration, with the option to use both or single side. It has an ESA type of radar, AESA or PESA is still to be clarified, but most chances & as per my knowledge, its a PESA kind of radar. It is more like an AWACS compared to an AEW&C variant, which the Erieye is, due to its smaller size. Y-8 is a bigger plane, thus it can accommodate more men and control stations. 

It gives you the option to have look into the tech, make changes as per your own requirements, have secrecy, less costly compared to western stuff and since in future majority of the airforce is gonna be of Chinese origin, it gives you more space to integrate the Chinese origin planes with these AWACS, which we can't do with Erieyes. It has 360 degree coverage and the range of the radar is also pretty impressive.

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## Arsalan

even the radar configration is not confirmed as yet unless you have some one in china to update you regarding it, let alone RESA or AESA!
taimi, can you please give a link stating that it have 2-sided radar antenna configuration?
i just want to check it for further details and information!

regards!


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## Areesh

arsalanaslam123 said:


> even the radar configration is not confirmed as yet unless you have some one in china to update you regarding it, let alone RESA or AESA!
> taimi, can you please give a link stating that it have 2-sided radar antenna configuration?
> i just want to check it for further details and information!
> 
> regards!



Isn't this a confirmation either for the AESA radar. Looks like a very confirmed news for AESA radar.



> November 15: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received its first Chinese-built ZDK-03 Advanced Warning & Control Systems (AWACS) aircraft on November 13 at a ceremony at Hanzhong in China attended by Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff for the PAF.
> 
> CETC of China is building four aircraft for the PAF from a $278 million (&#8364;204 million) contract signed in 2008. The ZDK-03 is a variant of the Shaanxi Y-8, itself a derivative of the Soviet-designed Antonov An-12 transport aircraft and *has a Chinese Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar*, reported to have a greater range than that of the PAF's Saab 2000 Erieye system.



Pakistan&#8217;s new AWACS

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## DANGER-ZONE

Source Air force monthly, AirForces Monthly: The worlds number one military aviation magazine
So Confirmed the RADAR is AESA .


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## TaimiKhan

danger-zone said:


> Source Air force monthly, AirForces Monthly: The worlds number one military aviation magazine
> So Confirmed the RADAR is AESA .



Problem with these sources is, they may be assuming it based on the fact that, 2 of the Chinese AEW&C platforms are based on AESA tech, so in my opinion they may be assuming it that this one may also have an AESA radar, which may not be the reality. 

Had they quoted any official source in this regard, then we may have said that its for sure an AESA as some official source quoted it. But since there is no official word to it, thus even now its now clear which type of radar it has. 

But my bet for now is on a ESA, most probably the PESA kind.


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## DANGER-ZONE

TaimiKhan said:


> Problem with these sources is, they may be assuming it based on the fact that, 2 of the Chinese AEW&C platforms are based on AESA tech, so in my opinion they may be assuming it that this one may also have an AESA radar, which may not be the reality.
> 
> Had they quoted any official source in this regard, then we may have said that its for sure an AESA as some official source quoted it. But since there is no official word to it, thus even now its now clear which type of radar it has.
> 
> But my bet for now is on a ESA, most probably the PESA kind.



here are two more source, with a bit different details.
Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force


> ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A prototype (serial # T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a tranditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. _*However this design does provide a true 360° coverage. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC,*_ but *no details are available.* The aircraft also features a solid nose with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as two small vertial tail stablizers. The Y-8 AWACS protoype was promoted to Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now dubbed ZDK-03 and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring 6-blade propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 has been ordered by PAF in a $278m deal. The first ZDK-03 rolled out in November 2010 at SAC, with the delivery to be scheduled by the end of 2010. ZDK-03 is expected to serve as an airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF.
> - Last Updated 11/14/10



other Pakistan Surmounts Sanctions To Revive Airpower - Defense News



> Malik said this was linked to its considerable export potential, "as the JF-17 is the only medium-tech aircraft in this price bracket, so there is a queue of vendors wanting to supply systems for the aircraft."
> 
> *December also saw Pakistan sign a $278 million deal for four Chinese KJ-2000/ZDK03 AEW&C aircraft, whose active electronically steered array radar is mounted on a turboprop-powered Y-8F600*. It is somewhat similar to the Saab-2000-mounted Ericsson FRS-890 Erieye system on order from Sweden.
> 
> The ZDK-03 purchase, as with the joint JF-17 program, has an element of technology transfer, said defense analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium.


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## TaimiKhan

danger-zone said:


> here are two more source, with a bit different details.
> Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force
> 
> 
> other Pakistan Surmounts Sanctions To Revive Airpower - Defense News



The first para, in which the line you have highlighted says AEW, meaning Airborne Early Warning, not AESA. Even this source says to be less capable then then Chinese AESA ones. So if its less capable one for export markt, it would not be an AESA based. 

and as for the second para, again, the writer is comparing KJ-2000 platform with ZDK-03, thus what else to say about what would he be knowing, and if you see the dishes of both platforms, they have different markings, and the prototype of ZDK-03 could be clearly seen with its dish mounted dome at different positions in different pictures, thus the prototype one had a rotating dome, thus it could not be compared with KJ-2000.

Plus, after your highlighted part, the writer says this:*

It is somewhat similar to the Saab-2000-mounted Ericsson FRS-890 Erieye system on order from Sweden.* 

Meaning he is saying it would be a liner shaped configuration, but we saw a dome shaped configuration, thus in my view he is not that much a reliable source or a knowledgeable source. As i had said, people must had and did assumed that since China has AESA based platforms, thus this 3rd would be an AESA based too, many people proved wrong who were advocating that its linear shaped ZDK-03 we are getting and the final product was dome shaped, thus people can make mistakes and this writer made a mistake too. 

So dear, there is no reliable enough source which can clarify what the dome has in reality, and as said, my bet (based on my sources) is on PESA for now. Its for sure is an ESA radar.

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## Lankan Ranger

*Pakistan to receive first ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft by January 2011*

*Pakistan will receive the first of four Shaanxi ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control system aircraft by the end of January 2011.

The other three aircraft are likely to arrive later in the year, says the Pakistan air force.
*
"The ZDK-03s have been developed to our specifications," says the air force. "It won't be an E-3C Sentry, but it will have the latest electronics and everything an AEW&C aircraft needs."

The Chinese-built aircraft will have an active electronically scanned array radar, and its open architecture electronics will allow for future developments and upgrades.

Pakistan has also received its third of four Erieye radar-equipped Saab 2000s being acquired from Sweden, with the final aircraft likely to arrive in the coming months. The four-engined Chinese aircraft has a greater range than the Saab, say sources.

The ZDK-03 deal underlines the strong military ties between Pakistan and China. The countries have also jointly developed the Chengdu JF-17 Thunder fighter, of which Pakistan is likely to buy 200.

Pakistan to receive first ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft

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## Safriz

The great big debate about AESA non AESA and AEW&C or AWACS has finally been settled?


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## Dil Pakistan

Sri Lankan said:


> *Pakistan to receive first ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft by January 2011*
> 
> *Pakistan will receive the first of four Shaanxi ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control system aircraft by the end of January 2011.
> 
> The other three aircraft are likely to arrive later in the year, says the Pakistan air force.
> *
> "The ZDK-03s have been developed to our specifications," says the air force. "It won't be an E-3C Sentry, but it will have the latest electronics and everything an AEW&C aircraft needs."
> 
> The Chinese-built aircraft will have an active electronically scanned array radar, and its open architecture electronics will allow for future developments and upgrades.
> 
> Pakistan has also received its third of four Erieye radar-equipped Saab 2000s being acquired from Sweden, with the final aircraft likely to arrive in the coming months. The four-engined Chinese aircraft has a greater range than the Saab, say sources.
> 
> The ZDK-03 deal underlines the strong military ties between Pakistan and China. The countries have also jointly developed the Chengdu JF-17 Thunder fighter, of which Pakistan is likely to buy 200.
> 
> Pakistan to receive first ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft





   

It would be nice to know the detailed specifications of onboard equipmetn, but, I know PAF will keep it under wraps as ususal.

Good Luck to PAKISTAN and PAF


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## unicorn

*Pakistan to receive first ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft*
By Greg Waldron

Pakistan will receive the first of four Shaanxi ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control system aircraft by the end of January 2011.

The other three aircraft are likely to arrive later in the year, says the Pakistan air force.
"The ZDK-03s have been developed to our specifications," says the air force. "It won't be an E-3C Sentry, but it will have the latest electronics and everything an AEW&C aircraft needs."

The Chinese-built aircraft will have an active electronically scanned array radar, and its open architecture electronics will allow for future developments and upgrades.
Pakistan has also received its third of four Erieye radar-equipped Saab 2000s being acquired from Sweden, with the final aircraft likely to arrive in the coming months. The four-engined Chinese aircraft has a greater range than the Saab, say sources.
The ZDK-03 deal underlines the strong military ties between Pakistan and China. The countries have also jointly developed the Chengdu JF-17 Thunder fighter, of which Pakistan is likely to buy 200.

Purchasing AEW&C aircraft from two separate sources is indicative of Pakistan's strategy of not becoming too reliant on any one ally. The USA imposed military sanctions against Islamabad from 1990 until 2005 in response to its testing nuclear weapons.
The air force's current fleet includes Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage III/5s and Chengdu F-7s and JF-17s.

In terms of military transports, Pakistan flies Lockheed C-130s, but also operates Ilyushin Il-76/78 tankers.

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## PAFAce

TaimiKhan said:


> Just slight correction, P&W Canada is a subsidiary company of P&W USA, thus technically, the engine manufacturer is US, though it has the some manufacturing base/plant in the Canada.


Pratt & Whitney Canada is an autonomous organization within the United Technologies umbrella and has its own R&D, engineering and manufacturing sites completely separated from PW USA. PWC has dealth only with engines in the 5,000 to 10,000 pounds of thrust class with very little technological common-ground with Pratt & Whitney USA. There is a new engine in the works, PW800, with up to 15,000 points of proposed thrust, but that is only in the drawing stages. Also, PWC focuses primarily on engines for personal and business jets like Cessnas, Bombardier C and Q Series, Embraer, Learjet etc. The only military uses of their engines are turboshaft for utility helis and turboprop trainers. So think of PWC as a completely separate and completely Canadian company that has little or nothing to do with any defence applications.

I highly doubt that the ZDK-03 will be fitted with a PWC engine. Pratt & Whitney USA focuses on engines above 20,000 pounds of thrust class, and deals with all defence matters, so my guess would be that the engine of choice is from PW USA.

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## fatman17

*so my guess would be that the engine of choice is from PW USA.* 

US has 'sanctions' on China


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## SQ8

Which would be what??
P&W USA doesnt make any turboprops anymore..
P&W canada makes the PW-100 series which fits the bill well..
I am surprised they dont just put in Allison T-56's.. like the C-130's..
save on logistics and maintainability.


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## DANGER-ZONE

*Rare photo of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Dassault Falcon 20F (serial# J-469) taken at Paris - Le Bourget (LBG / LFPB), France, on June 18, 1998.*

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## Manticore

sir xman also flew one to paris, if im correct

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## Abu Zolfiqar

great find....any background info on these aircrafts? When were they inducted, how many were in fleet?


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## SQ8

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> great find....any background info on these aircrafts? When were they inducted, how many were in fleet?



The falcon 20's?
Been with us since the 80's I think..
two of em.. called Iqbal and Bala after the EB-57 that was shot down by our own troops.
Fitted with ELINT and ECM equipment..recently upgraded as well..
Thats all I know though.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

dera mera baani Dr. Santro!


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## S.U.R.B.

ANTIBODY said:


> sir xman also flew one to paris, if im correct



Yeah! here is the pic of* Lodhi*.Pic was uploaded by x_man.






And the photo detail says:

*One of the two EW Falcon 20 F of PAF ( 24 EW Sqn) at Athens while on its way to Paris for maintenance inspection. Note ' Lodhi' at nose. Other one is called 'Iqbal'.*

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## Windjammer

Guys, it's worth noting that the ZDK-03 AWACS, which was recently rolled out for the PAF, is actually a joint development between Pakistan and China Electronics Technology Corporation (CETC). 
The project known as "Karakorum Eagle", is geared to produce four such aircraft for the PAF.

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## humza_313

santro said:


> The falcon 20's?
> Been with us since the 80's I think..
> two of em.. called Iqbal and Bala after the EB-57 that was shot down by our own troops.
> Fitted with ELINT and ECM equipment..recently upgraded as well..
> Thats all I know though.



by the 80s the paf had inducted 2 falcon da-20s but for VIP services ..! 
later it acquired 2 more da-20s ELINT FOR RECON purposes.!

one of the most successful recon mission was led by w/c masood akhter in 1989 (not sure) by escorting 2 mirage IIIs and 2 f-16s over karakoram range..!

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## hassan1

danger-zone said:


> *Rare photo of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Dassault Falcon 20F (serial# J-469) taken at Paris - Le Bourget (LBG / LFPB), France, on June 18, 1998.*


THERE ARE TWO DA-20 AIRCRAFT IN PAF AS SPCIAL DUTIES.
1 J-468
2 J-469
it is not rear?

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## hassan1

santro said:


> The falcon 20's?
> Been with us since the 80's I think..
> two of em.. called Iqbal and Bala after the EB-57 that was shot down by our own troops.
> Fitted with ELINT and ECM equipment..recently upgraded as well..
> Thats all I know though.



PAF USE "RB-57F" BY 24 SQ 






NOT EB-57

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## Manticore

Strategic Parity at all Costs
Did PAF procure four Saab 2000 AEW&C platforms with Saudi financial assistance?
By Prasun K. Sengupta


Although its official stance is not to get engaged in tit-for-tat arms race with India, Pakistan is nevertheless determined to not only attain strategic parity with its eastern neighbour, but also to maintain superiority in select areas, such as the arena of undersea warfare. It is believed that Islamabad is now negotiating with the Shanghai-based China State Shipbuilding & Trading Corp (CSTC) the possible purchase of up to four double-hulled Improved Yuan-class diesel-electric submarines (SSK) equipped with fuel cell-based air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems, with each SSK costing USD 230 million. Also on the cards is the possible lease  for a 10-year period  of a 5,500-tonne Type 091 Han-class nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSGN). Both these prospective deals, along with an expected purchase of four new CSTC-built Type 054 Jiangkai I-class guided-missile frigates (FFG) were reportedly discussed six months ago when Chinas visiting vice president, Zheng Dejiang, met high-ranking Pakistani defence ministry and navy officials in Islamabad on June 9 and 10.

This development would effectively put an end to the Pakistan Navys (PN) three-year-old efforts to procure new-generation SSKs worth USD 1.2 billion from either France or Germany. It may be recalled that France had in July 2006 cleared DCN International to offer three single-hulled Marlin-class SSKs to Pakistan, but matters did not proceed further as the PN had been insisting that the to-be-acquired SSKs

be modified to fire Boeing-built RGM-84A Harpoon anti-ship cruise missiles (the three existing1,760-tonne Agosta 90B and two 1,043-tonne Agosta 70 SSKs of the PN are presently configured to fire only the MBDA-built SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missile). Subsequently, from 2008 onwards the PN zeroed in on the single-hulled Class 214 SSK built by Germanys Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW), but the balance tilted in favour of CSTC early this year when Beijing offered not only the Improved Yuan SSKs, but also the Type 091 Han-class SSGN, offers that the PNs Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Noman Basheer and Pakistans President Asif Ali Zardari have since wholeheartedly embraced. However, in an effort to mollify the French, a high-level PN delegation visited France on April 27 to begin contract negotiations with DCNI concerning the upgrading of the PNs two existing Agosta 70 SSKs. This contract was inked last June, and includes the installation of two SUBTICS combat management systems on the two SSKs.

The improved Yuan-class SSK, with a submerged displacement close to 4,000 tonnes, bears a close resemblance to the Russian Type 636M SSK, and features hull-retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail. The first such SSK was launched at Wuhan Shipyard on September 9. The leasing of a single 5,500-tonne Type 091 Han-class SSGN is widely seen as a matching response to the Indian Navys leasing of the Project 971A Shchuka-B SSGN  K-152 Nerpa  from Russia. Presently, only four such SSGNs are operational with the PLA Navy and are homeported at Qingdao. Each of them has undergone extensive refits and upgradations over the past decade, and it is most likely that either the Changzheng 3 (403) or Changzheng 4 (404) will be the one destined for Pakistan. Both these SSGNs underwent mid-life refits in 1998 and were back in service by 2000. Each such SSGN is powered by a nuclear, turbo-electric propulsion system comprising one pressurised water reactor rated at 90mW. It can fire both the 250km-range YJ-83 anti-ship cruise missile or the 220km-range C-705 anti-ship cruise missile. The SSGN also has six 533mm torpedo tubes, and carries a total of 20 torpedoes, including the Yu-3 (derived from the Russian SET-65E and equipped with active/passive homing sensor and 205kg warhead, and having a range of 15km while travelling a speed of 40 Knots warhead 205kg). Alternatively, the SSGN can carry 36 mines. The crew complement is 75, and the SSGNs length is 106 metres, beamwidth is 10 metres, draught is 7.4 metres, and its dived speed is 25 Knots.

The Type 054 Jiangkai I-class FFG, built by CSTCs Shanghai-based Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard and the Guangzhou-based Huangpu Shipyard, comes armed with twin quadruple launchers amidships housing the YJ-83 anti-ship cruise missile (equipped with a 165kg warhead), one eight-cell Hong Qi-7 short-range SAM system designed to engage aircraft in all-weather conditions out to a range of 12km, a single-barrel 100mm main gun developed by Chinas 713 Institute, four six-barrel 30mm AK-630M close-in weapon systems (CIWS), twin 18-tube countermeasures dispensers, and twin Type 87 six-tube 240mm anti-submarine rocket launchers, with 36 rockets. The FFG has a combat management system built by China Electronics Technology Group Corp (CETC), and a sensor suite that includes a Type 360S 2-D air/surface radar operating in E/F-band and having a range of 150km, one I-band MR-36A surface search radar, an I-band Type 347G radar for CIWS fire-control, an I/J-band Type 344 radar for main gun targeting, and a J-band Type 345 radar for fire-control of the Hong Qi-7. The FFG also comes fitted with a Russian MGK-335 fixed hull-mounted medium-frequency active/passive panoramic sonar suite. The propulsion system is of the combined diesel and diesel (CODAD) arrangement and employs four SEMT Pielstick (now MAN Diesel SA) 16 PA6V-280 STC diesel engines. China imported the 16 PA6V-280 STCs production rights in the late Nineties and is now producing the engines locally under licence at Shaanxi Diesel Factory. Each 16 PA6V-280 engine can produce a sustained power of 4,720kW (6,330hp), giving a total power of 18,880kW (25,320hp).

Meanwhile, the PNs efforts to induct its three CSTC-built F-22P Sword-class FFGs are proceeding smoothly. The first such FFG-PNS Zulfiquar  was launched by CSTC on 5 April, 2008 and commissioned on 30 July, 2009. It arrived in Karachi on September 13 the same year and was inducted into the PN fleet on September 19. The second FFG-PNS Shamsheer  was launched at Hudong Zhonghua Shipyard on 31 October, 2008 and was commissioned on 19 December, 2009 in Shanghai. The third FFG-PNS Saif  was launched in Shanghai on 28 May, 2009 and it was commissioned on September 15 this year. Licensed-construction of fourth FFG began last March at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works, and it will be delivered to the PN in April 2013. Each F-22P FFG displaces 3,144 tonnes and is 123.4 metres long. The armaments suite comprises eight C-802A anti-ship cruise missiles, one eight-tube FM-90N SAM system, one 100mm AK-176M main gun, twin Type 730 CIWS, twin ET-52C 324mm triple torpedo tubes, and RDC-32 ASW rocket launchers. There is also provision for a helicopter deck for housing a Z-9EC helicopter. The combat management system is the ZKJ-3C from CETC, while the hull-mounted panoramic sonar is the Echo Type 5 system. The EW suite comprises a RWD-8 intercept system and NJ8I-3 jammer, while the on-board surveillance sensors include one SUR-17 air-surveillance radar, one SR-60 air/surface search radar, and a Kelvin-Hughes 2007 navigation radar. Propulsion system is of the CODAD-type using two Tognum MTU 12V 1163 TB 83 diesel engines that give the FFG a top speed of 28 Knots. Crew complement is 188.






As far as force modernisation of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) goes, 2010 has been an extremely good year. The roll-out ceremony of first Shaanxi ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft designed specifically by CETC for the PAF was held in Hanzhong, Shaanxi, on November 13. The ceremony, which was attended by the PAFs Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, coincided with President Asif Ali Zardaris visit to China  his sixth since assuming the position in 2008. It may be recalled that the PAF had inked a USD 278 million contract in December 2008 with CETC for the joint development of four ZDK-03s, which are due for delivery in the first quarter of next year. In a parallel procurement effort, the PAF has also become the first customer for the Saab 2000 AEW&C platform. The Skr 6.9 billion order for these four platforms was placed in June 2006 under Project Horizon, but the contract was renegotiated in May 2007 and its value was reduced to Skr 1.35 billion. The first aircraft was delivered on 8 December, 2009, with the second following on April 24 this year. The remaining two were expected to be delivered at press-time. Also being delivered are up to six ground receiving stations. Saab will provide an integrated logistics system (ILS) for these four aircraft for a 35-year period. *It is believed that the PAF has procured the four Saab 2000 AEW&C platforms with Saudi financial assistance and in return the PAF will train the Royal Saudi Air Force to operate the latters three Saab 2000 AEW&C platforms, which were ordered last June under a USD 680 million contract.*

Also delivered this year to the PAF by Ukraine were four IL-78MP aerial refuelling tankers, each of which is fitted with a three-point drogue refuelling system, and two removable fuel tanks installed in the freight hold, with each holding 18,230 litres of fuel with a total transferable fuel load of 85,720kg. Being negotiated now is the purchase of up to four batteries of CPMIEC-made Hong Qi-18 (HQ-18) long-range (80km) surface-to-air missile system, which was demonstrated to ACM Rao Qamar Suleman early last month.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

I would question where this ''Prasun K. Sengupta'' whistle got his information from.....he should share his sources

saying ''it is believed'' is not good enough in my books......

if true however, then GODDAM that's a good deal!! $680m worth of advanced AEW&C aircrafts (4 in number) and all we need to do in exchange is train the Saudis? 

not too shabby!

However, it's prudent to question the quality of reporting of self-proclaimed defence analysts when they try to present beliefs as facts......


my two paisas


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## Myth_buster_1

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I would question where this ''Prasun K. Sengupta'' whistle got his information from.....he should share his sources
> 
> saying ''it is believed'' is not good enough in my books......
> 
> if true however, then GODDAM that's a good deal!! $680m worth of advanced AEW&C aircrafts (4 in number) and all we need to do in exchange is train the Saudis?
> 
> not too shabby!
> 
> However, it's prudent to question the quality of reporting of self-proclaimed defence analysts when they try to present beliefs as facts......
> 
> 
> my two paisas



I remember reading almost 10 years old article which did mention Saudis will finance PAF AWAC deal.


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## Manticore

quoting sir muradk--he might be referring to this?
*
''Yes we do have a big problem CASH but still we somehow manage to get it and don't ask how. So stop worrying we are strong. ''*
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/20718-pakistans-mirage-2000-saga-7.html#post289397


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## topgun787

ARE THEY STILL OPERATIONAL?


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## DANGER-ZONE

From *Air Force monthly* Mag

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## fatman17

*Strategic Parity at all Costs
Did PAF procure four Saab 2000 AEW&C platforms with Saudi financial assistance?*

so what if they did?!

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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


> From *Air Force monthly* Mag





i don't like the color scheme.the original one with greyish color was lot better


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## DANGER-ZONE

Mani2020 said:


> i don't like the color scheme.the original one with greyish color was lot better



then better consult an eye specialist  because it already have light gray body with a little dark gray bottom. it looks cool then the normal.

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## air marshal



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## @rrows

I heard the Saab 2000 AEW&C has the ground station. Any one can tell the specification or post the picture. So far we received two saab 2000 ac which has enhanced our defence capability.


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## Burger Boy

I know of Saab Erieye and ZDK, but did the P-3 Orion aircraft also have AEW capabilities or were those only for Anti-submarine.


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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


> then better consult an eye specialist  because it already have light gray body with a little dark gray bottom. it looks cool then the normal.



n you should better consult a psychiatric to control your temper ,i was referring to this one


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## @rrows

Does anybody know which country other than Pakistan using the saab 2000 AEW&C


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## DANGER-ZONE

@rrows said:


> Does anybody know which country other than Pakistan using the saab 2000 AEW&C



Erieye radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Imran Khan

@rrows said:


> Does anybody know which country other than Pakistan using the saab 2000 AEW&C



saab-2000 only used by pakistan but the radar erieye used by 7 nations


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## DANGER-ZONE

Peace101 said:


> saab-2000 only used by pakistan but the radar erieye used by 7 nations



Saudi Arab have ordered same platform like PAF


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## houshanghai

it seems like zdk03 is better than saab2000 from this article.
????: http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1101/302097.html


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## Mani2020

houshanghai said:


> it seems like zdk03 is better than saab2000 from this article.
> ????: http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1101/302097.html



Its anybody's guess right now ,there would surely had been an input from PAF as they are operating erieye.but untill some official statement comes out we can only base our facts on rumors floating around. after formal induction of ZDK-03 in PAF it will be lot clearer for PAF to judge which one is better

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## Super Falcon

any pics of ZDK plz post them here


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## Imran Khan



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## Super Falcon

thanx for pics one question is this awacs has similar capabilities as american 737 has o indian phalcon has and why paksiatn choos this aircraft as a platform aacs dont look good to me A 310 or IL 78 would have been better choice to me


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## Imran Khan

Super Falcon said:


> thanx for pics one question is this awacs has similar capabilities as american 737 has o indian phalcon has and why paksiatn choos this aircraft as a platform aacs dont look good to me A 310 or IL 78 would have been better choice to me



sir for your kind information we got AWACS for air borne surveillance not for FTV show.china has short numbers of il-76s and we even dont have complete numbers . as you know its very costly to use IL-76 or A-310 we select Shaanxi Y-8 the same air craft which china use in large numbers for many roles. and its cost effective easy to maintain and very easy to got. so forget abut looking and look the range of radar and coverage of AESA radar 360 degree coverage with data link to jf-17 and j-10.


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## houshanghai

Mani2020 said:


> Its anybody's guess right now ,there would surely had been an input from PAF as they are operating erieye.but untill some official statement comes out we can only base our facts on rumors floating around. after formal induction of ZDK-03 in PAF it will be lot clearer for PAF to judge which one is better


the man to be interviewed is chinese AWACs deputy chief designer
google translate this article(pic to chiese txt by software)
China's early-warning aircraft exported to PakistanOne by one type of early warning aircraft to visit a domestic research fellow, deputy chief designer Chen CaoRover reporter mouth
Recently, early warning aircraft to Pakistan on China a lot of news, study its source, in addition to a Pakistani military generalsAnd one carrying the "disk" group photo radar aircraft, as well as chief of staff of Pakistan Air Force air show interview that China hasPakistan to deliver an early warning aircraft. However, this news is true or false in the end? China's exports to Pakistan, background and significance of early warningHow? How its performance and features? To this end, reporter requested the current deputy chief designer of a certain type of early warning researchers Cao ChenFor you to interpret. Cao has successively been the total China Electronics Technology Group Corporation Grand Prize and the National Defense Science and Technology Progress Prize of Science and Technology.
To export early warning aircraft, the tableAWACS technology has been living out of China known to the worldSector in the forefront
Q: Hello, General Cao, recently out on ChinaPakistan news of a new early warning aircraft mouth PutianCover, the areas of technology as a domestic AWACSExperts, whether you think this news really?
A: Actually, on this early-warningMachine had reported as early as 2006, and onlineAlso spread some transport planes carrying aircraft -8 "smallDisc "early warning aircraft pictures, the then StateForeign media reports, this type of early warning aircraft flew overMore than 7000 meters above sea level the Karakoram Mountains, arrivedPakistan conducted a test flight, and this isEarly warning aircraft for the first time in history fly out of the country, manyReaders probably have all seen the photos and phaseRelated news. The reason why the most recent on ChinaPakistan's export of new information such as appropriate early warningMore study its root cause is a published Pakistan PakistanStein photo of members of the delegation according to the new early warning aircraftFilm. As for the news is true, I thinkIs credible, mainly from two aspectsJudgments: First, where the photo was taken inFrom http://www.shuxiaoxiao.comThe airport, so after completing the flight should be a combinedVideo pictures, the higher the credibility of the photo itself. AnotherOutside the one hand, Pakistan is an Air Force Brigadier GeneralAirshow China in Zhuhai to accept media interviewsChina's exports to Pakistan Foreign confirm pre-Police machine.
Q: 60th anniversary parade, myDeveloped by the two types of early warning flashes associated fieldThis time I re-open around the export-oriented early warning lightPhase, how do you evaluate the significance of this incident?
A: It should be said, we see this reportRoad, to see our country has developed a new pre-Ordnance Technology / 2011/01 * 23
The above picture shows the two circulated on the Internet before the operation-s "disk" early warning aircraft photos, it now appears that time should be expected in the test ZDK03Dim Machine "disc" antennaPolice machine, very excited. This shows that our early warningDrive the development of thriving, truly goneA series development. And military flightMachine has always been higher in our already masteredLevel of technology, only exports, moreMoreover, early warning aircraft, this "combat power multiplier", andHas always been the secret of the countries do not pass can be outsideExports, shows that China's early-warning technology hasLiving in the world.
Q: Many friends of Pakistan known as the Kan"Iron bar", this time we drive out of the skull f&#12305; correct policeArthraxon Pakistan Sri Lanka small, small is another proof r IOld Sri Lanka and Pakistan Mi L i.iilx] ironclad friendship?
A: Yes. China allows early warning aircraftThis cutting-edge information technology weapons and equipment exports, whichIs the first time in history, certainly afterThe main leaders of the Central Military Commission and state specialApproved, and, also received state and military Pakistan* 24. Ordnance Technology / 2011/01Senior leaders of great concern and progress. ThisIn the maintenance of regional peace, to expand China's politicalAnd in some areas of the maintenance of a favorableChina's military posture, has important significance.
Q: This f &#168; l allegedly&#12305;, shoes were ordered AWACSPrivate) UZIJK03, Gai Ke What is the meaning name} &#168; 57
A: The view from the current publicly reported,ZDK03 AWACS is set by the China Electronics TechnologyGroup company signed with the Palestinians. "ZDK" may be"CLP subjects," the phonetic abbreviation, as. 03 "Should be represented is China's second air marshal 2000, air marshals
200 after the independent development of the third type of early warning aircraft.Two types of domestic development of early warning aircraft, using a doubleChief architect of the system, from China's General Electric Division GroupElectronic System Integration Designer is responsible for the task, fromThe chief architect responsible for the Air China Group as set conversions.In the export-oriented early warning aircraft, the total was 9 single currency,Bureau chief architect of electricity from China.
Heavy "test", the long journey
Name: early warning aircraft from the F line to cross to the userPay, have to do what I: for?
A: The early-warning aircraft to be delivered from off the assembly line afterBefore the general to go through flight, adjust the flight,Identification test, user acceptance testing of several flightStages. These phases, it should be said and the generalThe same plane.
The purpose of flight, primarily the initial validationThe plane was safe enough, whether God canGod illustrated the power system and pneumatic aircraftShape, and the corresponding control system is basicallyNo big problem, as more detailed requirementsTo wait until the follow-up test to test. And upThe ability to secure down the landing gear systemWhen the system is able to withstand the tremendous impact of landingPower brake system in a specified time and distance canFrom the airplane to stop and so on.
Then a certain vehicles to be adjustedTest, some similar to our participation in large-scaleSports warm-up match before the game or simulation test,Through these adjustments sorties, the aircraft's basicState parameters and functions get a clear idea of the changesChanges, the adjustment of the adjustment, the plane graduallyAdjusted to the best state to do technology for the identification testTechnical preparation.
And adjustments are made first flight test development of a singleBit to the Lord Tuan, is "self test himself." KamTest flight is scheduled by an authority through aNumber of flight movements to be formal and comprehensiveEvaluation function and performance of aircraft such thatMeet the requirements of the contract is "third-party testTheir own. "The so-called third-party, is neither a researchSystem of units, not the user.
Identification test is complete, then the user's homeSome support for the acceptance flight test sorties,Determine the requirements to the contract, the JiuzhengType delivery. This is the "user test yourself."
These are all aircraft must go throughTypical process, but the machine plus AWACSSystems with complex tasks, so there is notThe same place.
Q: early warning aircraft, and general trial b processMachine iH E ratio, which specific small place with?
A: The basic process of the two-phase testThe same, the biggest difference is the focus of flight orContent is not the same. As installed on AWACSFrom http://www.shuxiaoxiao.com&#9679; Expert Coptis a _Task (early warning) system because the task of integrating a large number of electronic devices. So the need for complex debugging. ShownU.S. E-3 AWACS is the task of system debuggingTechnical level, that is, in addition to exploration of early warning systemsThe ability to measure and identify targets, there is aImportant indicator is the function of its allegations, itWith other combat aircraft and ground command postCooperative Engagement Capability, including with the Palestinian side is installedSaab -2000 prepared to fit to fly AWACSLine, to see whether the two work together, mutual advantageFill. These test flights in the country is impossible, andYou can not let him fight in PakistanCome fly to the Chinese fleet, and Pakistan on the groundCommand post is impossible to move over, soThis part of the test is certain to go to Pakistan to testThe.
As the number of transmission lines AWACS coatSystem, mainly depends on the Palestinian side of the aircraft or itsHe was able to conduct coordinated operations with the AWACS weaponsAnd equipment installed in the end the Chinese side on the radio alsoWestern station. If the Chinese side the station,Domestic flight data can be carried out, such asIf the Western radio stations, depends on these stations isNo embargo on China, if the embargo, thenAWACS development phase, is to not China,Only to the Palestinian side to try.
Therefore, compared to domestic equipment, itIn addition to export-oriented early warning device to solve theThe performance of the body in place, but also into the foreign isSome weapons and equipment system, which will be more middleNumber of technical risk, design team will facePro more challenges, it can be said, early warning aircraft from theExports to the true fighting capacity is a long signProcess.
26. Working with technology / 2 011 / 0
8 can also be shipped back for a "plate"
Q: The export-oriented early warning aircraft which SichuanShall set PC platforms?
A: The picture from the news analysis, we can seeThis early warning aircraft to the carrier aircraft with slender machineHead, driving the shape of the window, 6 composite spiral leafPaddle and other features, a comprehensive analysis should be three types of Y-8Platform.
Q: turbofan aircraft flight speed, noise, etc.Indicators are excellent J: turboprop b machine, machine operatorDing will be more comfortable working environment, to extend the port JThe duty H-r, the flash of this Pakistan side and completely tluTown to adopt U.Y / Jl / M I3 145, A 310 or Boken
737 and the like to small or medium sized civil aircraftMachine to do it, why choose Win 87 infants
A: In theory, civilian aircraft are indeedThe best conversion AWACS aircraft, as civilianAircraft airframe life, the engine can be maintained, As well as economy are better than military aircraft,And the internal environment is much more comfortable. ButIt is important for civil aircraft converted into a military aircraft, toBy the end user license limit. You importsMan machine if only for civilian, may notPossession, once converted to military use, the exporting country, there can beCan limit you.
For Pakistan, the students themselves and notProduction of civil aircraft, civil aircraft modified with a warning soMachine, then we first have to buy the aircraft over, and thenAnd then sent to China to modification, first to fly abroad, regardless ofMachine manufacturer allows you to such a change, the domesticIt can not be modified in time, becauseChanges to such a large amount of body junction involvesStructure, strength and dynamics, etc, due toHere, time and cost of conversion will be more.
Lai Y-8 three platforms for select carrier aircraft,To simpler, because the operation of this type of carrier aircraft 8Platform, early warning aircraft after the air marshals -200With authentication, combined with the use of force appearsThe question changes, the overall performance has beenAfter a very mature, you can select it as a carrier aircraft sectionSave lots of development time and costs. In addition,Three types of platform is transported -8 localization of fully
Since Pakistan is equipped with a large number of US-made fighter jets and the rule of law, so ZDK03 flight future tasks will be to the system bus adapterSide to fly, photo equipment, Pakistan Air Force F-16 fighter jetsDateFrom http://www.shuxiaoxiao, comCan be satisfied, but certainly someImprovement requirements, which will certainly include the middle of the aircraftPlatform improvements. In fact, some of the military in ChinaMachine really too old, compared with foreign advanced aircraftRatio, as grandparents car, therefore, needTo combine the latest technology improvements. From the photosChip analysis, when the aircraft platform is transported eightF-400 or the equivalent military timeWith the type of Y-8C, and this platform is not my-8 Series aircraft have transported the latest. Moreover,As the procurement of Pakistan U.S. C -130, becauseThis, transport -8 and C-130 as the same levelMedium-range transport aircraft, I think Pakistan will certainly participate inAccording to C-130 improved the op -8 requestSo, the other way round, shipped eight new level of existingTaiwan's performance is not lower than C -130, but also byY-8 in the latest improvements to take advantage of the currentTechnology, some even exceed the performanceC-130.
Set machine to adapt to changes in radarChanges
Ugly&#12305;: Win 8, F units from carrying "balancing"Changed to carry the "small network disk", the bound willDynamic performance of the whole machine 2 e impact, the city machine requiredWhich island to improve the 4 'to meet the L line, down toRequirements?
A: Whether equipped with "balance beam" or"Little Disk", the aerodynamic performance of the machine are containedWill be affected, mainly in carrying mineOf the antenna, the load resistance increases machine, manipulationAnd stability worse. "Balance beam" on the setAerodynamic Performance of machines to be smaller, the mainIf the resistance increases small. And equipped with "small roundPlate ", though" plate "can increase a certain&#9650; V up and down through the comparison of two early warning aircraft. Can be found ZDK-03 early warning aircraft glass cockpit, composite leaf spiral 6Paddle, flat end plates and the tip of the antenna cover and other characteristics of the same early warning aircraft and air eagle -200. Which can determine the ZDK-03 early warning aircraft carrierMachine is also used three types of Ln-S platformLift, but the resistance increases more, and "driveChild "on the tail of a greater aerodynamic efficiency. RootAccording to China had modified "l No air marshals" early warning aircraftData, Figure 4 contains the machine platform plus a "plate"Later, the whole machine a 30&#37; increase aerodynamic drag toOn.
Therefore, carrier aircraft will certainly be changes for certainForward, to improve early warning aircraft flight performance, this sideY-8 platform the surface itself is modified early warningOn-board machine, in optimizing the aerodynamic shape, improving flightAnd handling performance have made many improvements.For example, drag reduction, the need for the aircraft empennageModification, the need for electronic systems in the body form the taskSurface appearance and layout of the antenna designedNeed to adopt more powerful engine and more. AnotherIn addition, the back of the "balance beam" or "plate" after theAirflow from front to back may affect flightFrom http://www.shuxiaoxiao.comMachine tail, reducing handling and stability, theTo the need to increase horizontal tail ends of two sideBoard to increase the stability of the original vertical tail can maintain operationsForce.
Q: The temperate climate of the different r,Most of Pakistan to the tropical desert r k subordinates' iHou, Gang Sh&#237; the Palestinian side to have any special carrier aircraftNeeds?
A: Because the Pakistan high temperature, longBetween the high-temperature environment will reduce the engineThe efficiency of the engine so the heat resistance and highTemperature characteristics have higher requirements. In addition, we mustTo enhance electronic equipment stored at high temperatureAnd work performance. And the cooling system on the machineSystem is also put forward higher requirements, including cabinEnvironment and mission equipment, the cooling of electronic systemsAnd so on.Ordnance Technology / 2011/01 * 27
From the "balance beam" to "small roundPlate ", reflects our radar technologyProgress
Q: We see ZDK03 AWACS miningPolice are using a similar air early warning aircraft in 2000"Disc"-shaped radar, but slightly smaller size, thatWhy, this "little disk" radar (as opposed to emptyPolice 2000 "big disk" radar terms) isIs designed for the u and developed? Or just onlyIs the air marshal 2000 "big disk" reduced radarVersion?
A: This radar is designed for exportDevelopment, or that there is no equipment that domesticRadar section, there is no public reports. IThere are also a personal hope, because those who want toSell weapons abroad, the domestic militaryArms and equipment in the book, is the best advertising, there areHelp to secure more exports.
As to whether the reduction of radar air marshal 2000Small version, is also uncertain, because they can not doRecognize this "small disc" standard is relative to the radarPhased array system or mechanical scanning system.If the phased array system, since we canDeveloped a large radar antenna can be naturallyDeveloped small.
Q: Academician Wang Mo accept my TV interviewWhen he said, air marshals 2000 "disc" early warningE3's radar than the United States also advanced, this advancedWhether the technology will be on the radar was export-orientedTo the application? Pakistan's exports of whether to use early warningThis technology?
A: I think yes. I remember the 60thAnniversary parade, the air marshal air marshal in 2000 and 200 in the sameDebuts, media said, marking the countrySeries has been toward the development of early warning aircraft. This time outAWACS appearance of liters of mouth, we should say ourAWACS series and move forward the development of aStep. As a series of early warning capacityProducts, the emergence of new models, is certainly technicallyTo inherit the existing models, will be into the sameStep, and air marshal in 2000 the development of early warning radarIn the accumulation of some mature experience will certainly beApplied to the new radar above.
Q: From the "balance beam" to "little disk", youHow to evaluate this change in appearance?
A: The significance of this change should be said that re-Large. Various types of early warning aircraft in the world today, the radar-dayLine and the antenna cover in the form of the layout of the aircraft,There are three main, first, balance beam shape, such as SwedenSaab -2000, E-737 and the air in ChinaPolice 200; second round backpack cover, such as E-2,E-3, A-50 and the air marshal 2000; third is the dayLine and radome attached to the body surface, namely, "totalForm ", such as" Sea Eagle "." Balance beam "type and"Conformal" type can not be rotated for phasePhased array radar; and backpack in the antenna cover roundEither a phased array, such as IL-76 "feeKang "in the disk array in the layout of the threeSurface, each scan 120 degrees front to achieve 360Degree of coverage; it can be rotated, such as E-2,E-3 and A-50, only the layout of an antenna arraySurface, by rotating the antenna to achieve 360-degree sweepScan coverage. The layout of these three forms, the carryingRound cover-type is the most comprehensive to guarantee a balanced explorationMeasuring performance.
From the "balance beam" to "small disk", whichMeans to obtain the overall design of the early warningTremendous progress. Before. We are on the Y-8Back "balance beam", which is a development riskLess choice, because the balance beam on the load machineLittle influence. Now, we know that in theEight can be shipped back "plate 2, is admitted at aStep. This export-oriented early warning aircraft aerodynamic shape,The significance of the main operation is the first demonstration of eight also
In the current technical conditions, only the use of bear-style "disc" early-warning radar to achieve a true seamless 360-degree scan, is most likely to become airborne early warning radar, command post standard, and itsRemaining Whether it is "conformal" or "balance beam" mode. The scan range has some defects. The picture shows a "disc"-shaped radar of large U.S. E-3 AWACS- 28. Ordnance Technology / 2011/01From http://www.shuxiaoxiao.com
As air marshals -200 pre-set dim machine machine. Yun-s three platforms already technically very mature and can not change too muchZDK-03 early warning aircraft to meet the requirements, can greatly reduce the development of the export-oriented early warning time and money, reduce development risk. AndFrom the back "balancing act 'to the" plate ", also reflects the overall design of the development of early warning aircraftTo the back plate, and found a transport -8 toBack much of the plate, and in one of this sizeA plate, not only can do such as E-2, E-3 andA-50 as rotation of the antenna, it can be done asIL-76 "Feier Kang," that does not rotate the daysLine, which for the subsequent upward mobility in a Y-8 aircraftFurther promote the development of early warning aircraft and laidImportant technical foundation.
Q: Single disc layout - Block radar antennaArray origin of the rotation, and the layout of the block front i do not spinTurn, the difference between the difference?
A: The farther the radar to see the antenna surfaceProduct must be greater. "Disc" If only the layout within theAn antenna, the antenna to be deployed in diameterPlace, but if you want to layout three fronts, asEnsure consistent barrier detection performance orientation, three arraysSurfaces must be as large, that is, equilateral triangleShaped place, the side length of equilateral triangles are certainly higher thanSmaller diameter. This is just the length of the antenna sideComparison to just one. On the other hand,We call the disc is essentially an ellipsoidBall; the height direction, if only to put one dayLine, this antenna is placed at the ellipsoid center,Maximum thickness, so the direction of the antenna at a height ofThe larger, if you want to become an equilateral trianglePlace, three antennas will not blunt and then in an ellipsoidCentral Office, must rely on outside, and the more by the ellipsoidOutside the more "flat" or more "thin", so,The direction of the antenna size in height but also bySmall. In other words, using three plane array technologyRadar antenna size is less than with single spinAntenna size.To more radar wave energy receivedMore energy, radar, and can definitely seeFarther, it is like human ears sounds the same asTop view air marshals -2000 AWACS, radar antenna from the back cast to see its three radar antenna installation method and location of
The picture shows the structure of the U.S. E-3 AWACS schematic diagram radome from the perspective can see that the aircraft used in early warning antenna rotaryInstallation, the antenna uses a single block, it can be installed in diameter radome position, and thus the larger the antennaFrom http://www.shuxiaoxiao.comOrdnance Technology / 2011/01 * 29Wangzhuzhulan _If the other party's voice is stronger, I could hear the distanceAway from the more far away.
Q: You mentioned back ruin style "mock disk"Just reached is the best guarantee "all parties are now squeak his radar coverCover scan ,".}&#65505; stealing water, "the way we knowIK is the exploration of Africa, fH is the "conformal." SideDefects in T-type boron &#8547; it?
A: Although the "conformal" array technology hasAerodynamic Performance of a small set of advantages, butIn order to achieve full coverage, must be in the nose,Both sides of the fuselage and tail are equipped with radar-dayLine. Because both sides of the body surface area should be largeSome, so you can install larger-dayLine, equivalent to the "balance beam" radar is split intoTwo and a half, installed in the fuselage on both sides, so you canEnsure that its detection range. The nose and tailSpace is relatively small, which limits the installation ofThe size of the radar antenna, thereby affecting the before and after twoDetection range of directions. For example, the Boeing 707Type "Feier Kang," early-warning aircraft, the fuselage on both sidesRadome is a rectangular area 10 meters by 2Meters, and the nose radome is circular with a diameter of only
2 meters, the area of difference between 6 times.Thus, while to achieve full coverageHowever, the performance is uneven, in the nose andWorse some of the tail direction, the corresponding, radar detectionDistance will close some. Of course, strictly speaking, the dayLine performance is not only dependent on the antenna area, also takingDepends on the wavelength, the antenna size is smallerUnder the radar can work in a shorter wavelengthTo make up; so, Israel G550 "Sea Eagle" in theHead tail radar, the wavelength of 10 cmAround the fuselage on both sides of the radar load, the operating wavelength
25 cm or so, but even if it is stillHowever, the balance is difficult to ensure comprehensive detection.
But from a development point of view, "conformal"Although antenna technology can not replace the "disc"Antenna, it is the most development potential. WhySay that, because as technology advances, futureEarly warning radar will eventually be true with the carrier aircraftCommon form, just like some advanced communication-dayLine can be laid in the skin on, the future of pre-Police radar antenna will be completely hidden in the wings andThe surface of the body, you will not see the radar, communications or surveillancePolice equipment, antenna, eliminating the antenna on the aircraftAdversely affect the aerodynamic performance.
Q: Do you ... only | Well scratch, the foot is the umbrella pay BackpackPosition covered overflow, &#168; Scotia Office of the cover bands, than the} Kui LuEquilibrium; were able to achieve full array Tong Fang ft coverageLun Qiu J / fWtnE small balance; and "in the title of technique", JournalThe 0i of the small towel off line. Ll nail song block, Xu H does notCan be very forward, so do the small bit of cash to cover squeakCover, then the "balance beam" &#12302;compensate for this, such as fnSide of divination ililj.ll) d '?
A: Currently the world, E-737 radarRadome is also the balance beam in the form, but itBalance beam close to the top added a "top hat"Antennas, to achieve the full coverage. This dayLine and the balance beam on both sides of array antenna is dividedKind, called "end-fire" antenna, while the balance beamArray antenna on both sides of the traditional "side of the radio" daysLine. Take E-737, the balance beam 2 daysFront line in any piece, the emittedWave antenna is perpendicular to the antenna Cambodia median planeHeart, towards the wingspan direction, both in the bodySide of the scan range of 120 degrees inside the capEnd-fire antenna beam towards the nose andTail direction, the equivalent plane parallel to the antenna can beTo the nose and tail of each position within the sweep of 60 degreesDescription. We can see that the "top hat" isLength, length and balance beam antenna rather, therefore,The performance of almost two antennas, detection performanceMore consistent. In addition to the antenna end-fire way to increaseIn addition, like the Boeing 707 can also be "Feier Kang" and"Sea Eagle", as in the nose and tail plus a round
Israel, like the figure G550 "Sea Eagle" early warning radar used is the "conformal" approach, the current approach, while more than "balance beam" approach is better, but the equilibrium in terms of detection range stillWorse than "disk" approach. However, radar and the body "conformal" is the direction of early warning aircraft, the future will be a complete body and radar operators were pre-shaped machine
30. Ordnance Technology, 2011/01From http://www.shuxiaoxiao.comWong &#9632; expert interviews
Use of "end-fire" E-737 AWACS antenna, radio antenna in the side because the upper and adding a "top hat" antenna (shown in red circleThus achieving a seamless 360-degree scanSpherical radome, but its diameter is too small, mostAlso about 2 meters, while the "balance beam" in lengthUsually more than 9 meters, the antenna size relative to the correspondingToo bad, so performance is not all-round coverageVery consistent. Should be noted that, to complement the radarBlind, make blind is not possible to install the radar antennaBoth ends of the wing, because space is too small, allowingXu installed antenna size is too small.
Functions over the pre-Saab -2000Police Machine
Q: As far as we know, Pakistan hasThe purchase of the six Swedish Saab 2000 "Love LiEyes "they enjoy the pre-machine system, but also has arrived r
4, why then China's pre-purchasePolice machine?
A: Sweden has been the use of early warningMachine, then, has chosen China's early warning aircraft, thatPi can be sure China's early-warning aircraft than in SwedenAdvanced. Pakistan, although he can not be developedEarly warning aircraft, but the Pakistan Air Force access to early warningTime is not short, or know what's what.
Q: Is it because of pre-Saab 2000Police machine both sides of the array technology used, notThere is only blind spot detection, and can not be measured with high becauseThe command post can not do the heavy air, thereThere is no reason for this? Loading the next ZDK03Equipment, how will early warning aircraft and Saab 2000With the work?
A: Yes, this is the key point. FromEarly warning radar in terms of pre-Saab -2000Police machine "Erieye" the existence of a certainBlind, and Xiao-up on the parasites in the IFFControl there will still blind, it would certainly severely limitTheir operational use. Also like you said, "EricssonEye "radar altimeter can not get the target positionOnly the distance and orientation information of two-dimensional, not three sittingTarget. The early-warning aircraft as adopted in China ZDK03Using a backpack, "disc" radar antenna, regardless ofMechanical scanning or phased array systems, can beCover the range of 360-degree scan, blind scan does not existArea, and the size of the radar antenna is also big, "LoveLi eye ", so detection range farther, and can measureHigh.
Machine from the side containing said modified platform shipped -8Take-off weight of more than 60 tons, much higher than the Saab-2000, Therefore, the task of installing electronic machineSystem more comprehensive. The real set of early warning aircraft toDetection, command, communications, confrontation in one, to beTo more devices, but also need more space,-8 Can provide better transport conditions.
Overall, the Saab 2000 is notFull sense of the early warning command and control aircraft, can only be consideredThe air intelligence station. Of course, because of its carrier aircraftSmall, the use of low cost, stand in times of peaceSentry post is good. The functions and ZDK03Will have comprehensive, multi-energy future will be PakistanEarly warning system in Tanzania in the main position, andSaab -2000 AWACS constitute mix of high and lowSystem. In fact, for many small countries,The peacetime and wartime, with the early warning levelSystem is more appropriate.
Q: under the radar such as the Saab 2000Institutional constraints, with the blind areas of early warningIf the two-aircraft formation, a certain degree in theI: complement each other blind. But if the single flight,It can be like a warship, "the" shapeAs anti-submarine routes to make up for lack of self-explorationDepression?
A: The early warning aircraft like the Saab 2000Blind spot detection of early-warning aircraft had indeed can passOver route changes, click "s" shaped flight routesLine of the scan area undetectable to indemnityMake detection of defects in its own, but to note thatEvery change routes often take several minutesClock time, in this period of time, the enemy flying
The picture shows the inner workings of early warning aircraft cabin Saab -2000, by the load and the limited space inside the machine, installed after the cabinet task. Not furnished enoughEnough number of tasks console, severely limits the ability to command and control aircraftFrom http://www.shuxiaoxiao.comOrdnance Technology / 2011/01 * 31Machine will not be able to master the movements, or even be lostRoute changes to the target before the scan.If the normal patrols a few minutesNot a big issue, but in wartime, these few minutesTime is likely to have adverse consequences.
Also, you mentioned the two-aircraft formation with each otherMake blind problem, is a surveillance aircraftIs precisely the scope of the blind spot of another aircraft. However, the actualWhen it is difficult to implement, if the twoAWACS only see each other just do not see the situationReported in this easy to handle, through the exchange of data link toCan complement each other. But the problem is that the sameMay be a target while two AWACSSee, it is necessary to determine a target for a purposeStandard instead of two goals, time synchronization, theIn data transmission and in post-processing of informationOn, it is not so simple, and this alsoThere is a lot of problems to solve.
Q: Do you team for Pakistan in terms of"Little Disk," What may be raised early warning radarWhat kind of request? And the U.S. E-2 and E - 3The "network disk" early warning radar compared to properties such asWhat?
Dad: the user's tactical weapons and equipmentTechnical indicators, which are very confidential, the generalWill not be made public. But you can say for sure, because PakistanThe domestic side are generally high-end weapons and equipment procurementThe major military powers from the West, so see more knowledgeCanton is in the affirmative. And, because the Palestinian side the country has beenSince the war relatively more pressure to counter-terrorismBig, so good at tactics used. We are engaged in domestic militaryTrade and exports are also a lot of people think that the Palestinian side, as withHouseholds, is very professional but also very demanding, thisPoint from the Palestinian side and I co-developed by our K-8 CoachMachine and the "Fierce Dragon" fighter aircraft are similar inLeader can be seen. So I think PakistanThe "small disc" will not lower the requirements of the radar.
As with the E-2 and E-3 comparison, I think,"Little Disk" early warning radar certainly look better than E-2Too far. Because the Y-8 E-2 platform than most, and can beTo provide more power and installing more daysLine, so the detection range will definitely be more than E - 2C,As for other features, certainly higher than the E-2 to completeMore, because the E-2 did not so much space for BryanMore tasks loaded cabinet. Compared with the E-3, althoughHowever, a number of smaller carrier aircraft (E-3 Boeing 707 carrier machineMaximum takeoff weight of 150 tons), but byIn that we can use the most modern electronic technologyNew achievements in the electronic system of radar and other tasksComprehensive performance system with the E-3 close to or overThrough E-3, can be technicallyThe.
"Disc" radar technology in the futureOr applied to the carrier-based early warning on
Q: The world's only carrier-based fixedThat is, fixed-wing AWACS E-2 U.S. carrier pre-Police machine is used with ZDK03 similar"Little Disk" early warning radar, then ZDK03Can the ship early warning aircraft, as carrier pre-Police machine use?
A: So far, the United States is the world'sThe only fixed-wing carrier-based early warning development and equipmentMachine state, but also has the world's largest tonnageAircraft carrier. E-2 to the maximum take-off weight of only
26 tons, and its folding wings, fuselage backRotation of antenna cover and stand height can be reducedLow performance, only Kankan ****** home in the United StatesOn the landing, but the biggest AWACS from ZDK03
Saab -2000 Pakistan has equipped early warning aircraft type, aircraft pre-dim the radar a "balancing" system, so there are blind spot detection, but also by the load and the machine can not be as space constraints +ZDK03 pre-installed blind machine as the task of a comprehensive electronic equipment, it can only be regarded as air intelligence station
32. Ordnance Technology / 2 011 / 0From http://www.shuxiaoxiao.com
CKS catapult take-off circle for E-2C early warning aircraft of the United States. Is only a fixed-wing carrier-based early warning aircraft, but the future of China if the right platform ZDK03 'small disc "warning LeiOf technology transfer in the past, the performance can be best developed early warning aircraft carrierFlying weight of 60 tons or more, so much to flyMachine, is not on the ship, at least not yetWhich can withstand such a large aircraft carrier landing weightVolume.
If you mean ZDK03 warningMachine using the "disc" ship radar technology, whichDoes have a possible, if a suitable carrierMachine, may not be able to develop the E-2 that as aKind of excellent early warning aircraft carrier.
Q: Speaking of carrier-based early warning aircraft, which the aboveAWACS radar and ground-based radar has evenWhy the difference? With a demand for early warning radar| Against, is a good deal with the ground or sea clutterClutter good deal?
A: The difference between the two larger. Carrier Pre-Police Radar work in over the sea, sea-noise ratioMuch weaker ground clutter, so early warning mineOf detection range over the sea than on landAway a lot of ground. In order to better adapt radarIn the long-distance transmission, so early warning mine carrierOf the need to work in the longer wavelength wavesParagraph (UHF band), such as meter or nearMeter. The work of ground-based early warning radar waveUsually 10 cm long (S-band) to 25 cm(L band). Roughly speaking, the shorter the wavelength,Anti-clutter the better. By the ground-based early warning radarThe need for anti-clutter, so the wavelength is usuallyShort. In addition, the longer the wavelength, the corresponding antenna,Oh transmitting and receiving equipment to do less, whichBeneficial in the ship.
In addition, the carrier-based AWACS aircraft carrier takeoffs and landings by weightRestrictions on the amount and use of space, so the antenna andRadome design will be limited, to be able toAnd set out to match the size of machine, not too large, tooWeight. The size of land-based aspects of the radar early warning aircraftLimit is relatively small, because the aircraft is not loaded, I can change to larger aircraft loaded.
ZDK03 early warning aircraft to be incorporated into PakistanCombat system interface issues must be addressed
Q: As an early-warning aircraft, in addition to early warning,Warning functions, the most important functions that should be the number ofCommand, control, and we know that "Erieye" early warningMachine in the allegations of weak performance, then"Little Disk" early warning aircraft will enhance thisFeatures to make up Pakistan's command in the airDisadvantages? Example, a similar increase in U.S. military link - 16 NumberAccording to chain and other equipment.
A: This is in the affirmative, the data chain can be saidIs to achieve the most important means of the combat, withFrom http://www.shuxiaoxiao.comInformation transfer, arms control, navigation, identification andCommand guidance, and other functions, and canOperations in the region and the various command and control systemsCombat platforms together into a comprehensive tactical dataTransfer / exchange and information processing network, forCommanding officers and various tactical battle platform phaseRelevant data and complete battlefield information.For example, an action on early warningMembers, do not pass through the data link and data link,Can guide the fighter may be a difference of 10Times. Enhance command and control functions, certainlyZDK03 Jiu than "Erieye" early warning of aA significant advantage.
Q: As any modern air force for airThe core services and equipment, early warning aircraft need to 'j controlVJ range of many machine communication and data daggerExchange. {B} the history of the original Taipa, Pakistan homeMilitary equipment is more complicated, both by NATOStandard III I7 16 and Mirage fighters, but alsoRussian Il-78 tanker, also in ChinaThe J-7, and Pakistan jointly developed the JF 17 warFighting machine, Z D K03, such as pre-i A police unit will be PaulCommunication card connection with these complex Ll compatible?
A: ZDK03 early warning aircraft in the communications,Indeed, the integration of various equipment will be faced with the problem.Ordnance Technology / 2011/01 * 33In fact, in addition to communication problems, early warning aircraft exportsAfter parasitic enemy AWACS radar identificationDo not control the Palestinian side must also achieve the same platform for existing operationsIFF is installed on a compatible, otherwiseCan not even identify the enemy is, let alone command operationsThe. The radio communication, IFF compatibleProblem, not just these types of fighters, but alsoIncluding Pakistan, for a variety of ground and surfaceCombat units, involving many aspects.
In addition to aircraft and ships, etc. and forWarfare platform links, the early warning needed accessTheater command center by ground command, therefore, pre-Police intelligence unit in the floor through the ground data link, It needs to be able to convert the ground command postUnderstanding of the format and other issues, will be ZDK03Early warning aircraft, combat systems integration into the Palestinian side key.Interface issues are not well, ZDK03 AWACSCan not be a real air command post.Comfort is the combatRiver: ... Ji cranial hip hunger l | 0 Special rf, discrimination"Da 2 Jm Yue K, when compared with infants Cruise l River. Such asj &#8765;:: System 'l;. ii edge R Yao Ding nearly l () ll-tl'l small spoon; Soup at no call n1J. Nine ttiiD dagger K = fJ spoon called fiiiiii, a! if &#168; rfL"LI.1.": People bj &#12302;: 'i effect, &#65505; r} Shu Tong J has g fF ServicesFresh off &#168;?
A: The design of the modern early-warning aircraft, no doubtShould be people-oriented, attached great importance to ergonomics,Convenience in the operation of equipment and working environment comfortableAdaptive, etc., must be great effort, especially in pre-Mission systems on the police machine operators, need to keepPaul Special sober and calm, so as to timely identifyThe most threatening targets, and guide one's own battleMachine attack. Therefore, the comfortable operational environment,Conducive to maintaining its operational effectiveness, can be comfortableOf that combat. Previously, we have been moreEmphasis fearless tired, would be to miss the filmSurface. Therefore, human engineering, need to correctUnderstanding needs to be Changed
In the human environment can be said that civilian passengerConversions early warning aircraft have inherent advantages, weEarly warning aircraft cabin photos from abroad can also be seen,The compartments are relatively high-end interior decoration, ShuComfortable, more relaxed space, complete living facilitiesEquipment. Eight of our aircraft is a military transport aircraft,The Palestinian side has purchased the Saab 2000 is a businessAircraft, both in the work environment of comfort sideDifference is relatively large surface, including toilet,Kitchen and other living facilities, and noise and so on. IsMaybe even more than military transport aircraft are not equipped with toiletsEquipment, not to mention the kitchen. But the transport modificationAfter the early warning aircraft, this does not. TheSo, I think, on the one hand, with reference to PakistanSaab 2000 device configuration and comfort to theChina put forward higher requirements on the other hand, weDesigners should also change their ideas, in the human mechanicProcess improvements made relatively large, saySubdivision through the rational layout, installation of sound absorption bySeismic wall, and the resistance of the installation of equipment cabinNigeria devices ways to reduce the shock of work spacesAction and noise.
Fortunately, domestic equipment, air marshals
200 early warning aircraft have also been arranged inside the kitchen
Early warning aircraft, the core task is to command and control of other aircraft in combat ashamed, so maintain a seamless link to other essential operational platforms, photo shows the U.S. E-3 Pre-blind machine Command F-16 fighter jetsOPERATIONS
34. Ordnance Technology / 2011/01From http://www.shuxiaoxiao.comOne expert interviewsThe prince Yu-right circle for the E-767 AWACS spacious working space than the left shows the E-2 pre-bud machine narrow, crowded work spaces of the human environment is much betterToilet rooms and lounges and other living facilities, whichShould certainly be adding to the exportZDK03 early warning aircraft, the result of the said, through theKinds of efforts, our early warning aircraft in the man-machineEnvironmental early warning aircraft will not be lost to foreign countries.
l Police are also likely to export 200
M: the current boundaries can spit I&#12305; cranial Hill Police "LRan home which are H-&#8545; &#247;?
A: The first early warning aircraft exporting countries are the United States, Exporting models include the E-2, E-3, twoSpecies radome (radar antenna mounted on the daysLine of the hood) are disk-based, and areRotation, and later exported to Australia, soilTurkey and South Korea's E-737, is in the "balanceWood "on and added a" top hat ", be made up"Balance Beam" blind scan. Followed by SwitzerlandCode and Israel, Sweden, is the "balance beam" RayOf Israel is a "big nose" of the conformalArray radar antenna mounted on a large mushroom is no longer withinIncluding early changes in the Boeing 707 on the "FairHealth ", and now the" Sea Eagle. "Chinese andIsrael to interrupt, Israel, BYAWACS program was proposed by side, that is in IraqSeoul -76 on the back of a "large disk" radar, soldIndia. In my opinion, China can to IsraelCollect royalties. China is the world's fourthCountries able to export early warning aircraft. Although RussiaHowever, developed the A-50, but did not formallyExports. Of course, I said here early warning aircraft, currencyIncluding early warning helicopters.
Q: The Zhuhai Air to I:, narrow Police 200Electrical and were warning the public, "Yin claw foot shed is called to playAir Police also infant River 200 l I j'IIJj /?
A: The world of aviation product manufacturers,To participate in exhibitions is an important objective is toThe products sell out. And under normal circumstances _ 'used"Disc" system of early warning aircraft than the use of "balancedWood, "the early warning system in the technology, tactics to be moreTo improve, but also more complex. That is,Since the "disc" early warning aircraft can export, then export"Balance Beam" early warning aircraft are also not impossible.
So, I personally think that the air marshals 200Exhibitors should have this meaning. In fact, since the 21st centuryCentury on the international market after the early warning aircraft, from the number ofPoint of view, "balance beam" the configuration is the largest,This is because at present we all want to early warning aircraftProcurement, use and maintenance costs down, while theAnd many medium and small countries, is neither necessary norThere is a corresponding financial resources to buy those expensive, technologyTechnical and complex and not necessarily buy the large pre-Police machine, and tend to buy the small aircraftPlatform modified for the "balance beam" early warning aircraft. AsSwedes the "balance beam" were installed in the Saab
340, Saab -2000 and ERJ-145 and other smallPassenger aircraft, selling nearly 20; Americans "flatHeng Wood "mounted on the Boeing 737, there are also 10 toOn the order. 200 for air marshals to the international marketField, but also on the "disk" configuration of the export-oriented pre-Police unit to add.
Sichuan: l flu shot. JV. 0 &#168; i {he door Amman SongAssociation! I2
Field for the U.S. E-3 AWACS rest compartment. Figure in addition to spacious lounge chairs to see, but also furnished with toilet, hangersWater heaters, food cabinets and beds, called facilitiesFrom http://www.shuxiaoxiao.comOrdnance Technology / 2011/01 * 35


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## SQ8

Article seems to imply that the ZDK-03 system will be compatible with link-16.. and if that is the case..then apparently the idea of only interfacing on the GCI level had been scrubbed for a more comprehensive AWACS capability.

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## Mani2020

houshanghai said:


> it seems like zdk03 is better than saab2000 from this article.
> ????: http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1101/302097.html



oh man this site contains humongous virus, i opened this site last night and then my PC got stuck by viruses and i was unable to do any work last night ,i kept trying for 3 hours as i was not in mood to install new window but unfortunately it didn't work out.so early in the morning the first thing i did was to format hard disk and install new window and in process i lost all of my important data and projects 

you bad man

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## Mani2020

@*houshnaghai*

that is some article man . i was like this  when i saw the length of the article .but i m trying to read it fully ,i hope i will achieve that landmark soon

wish me best of luck 

but on serious note thanks for posting this article

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## Mani2020

*@houshanghai*

the translation was not so appropriate so i find it very difficult to understand few things.also the name of Palestine was used quite often in the read ,was that just a typo or something else?


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## Thorough Pro

Some information about Saab 2000 Erieye system for Pakistan.

Actions based on real-time information are crucial and demand systems that offer high situational awareness. 

Erieye is the first high-performance, long-range Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) system based on active phased-array pulse-Doppler radar. 

This new-generation system can be installed in a variety of commercial and military aircraft, including regional jet or turboprop airliners. It meets full AEW&C requirements for detecting and tracking targets at ranges of up to 450 km over land or water.

A complete system
The Erieye AEW&C Mission System includes sensors, C2 and communications. These are complemented by a comprehensive suite of training and support systems.

Compact and cost-effective
Due to its compact nature, the Erieye system is installed on small aircraft, both jet and turboprop, giving a low cost profile.

The Erieye radar is the first of its kind to use ground-breaking AESA technology. The truly multi-role Erieye radar detects and automatically tracks air and surface targets over a huge area, extending over 900 km. It is designed to track the smallest of objects, such as cruise missiles and jet-skis, even among heavy clutter and in jamming environments.

Wide coverage
Flying at high altitude, Erieye covers a much wider area than a conventional ground based sensor system can. The effective surveillance area is more than 500,000 sq km horizontally and 20 km vertically. It detects air targets at a range of up to 450 km. 

Sea coverage is only limited by the horizon, which is around 350 km (190 nm). Within this area, every object in the air and at sea will be detected and pinpointed.

Multi-role
The ability to detect both air and sea targets makes it ideal for both military and security applications. It is designed to track the smallest of objects, such as cruise missiles and jet-skis, even among heavy clutter and in jamming environments. 

The operator consoles are true multi-role, having identical functionalities. The role decides which functions the operator will use.

Spiralling development
By using the concept of spiral development, the system has been upgraded for each new customer. Despite having the same outward appearance, the inside is new. This process ensures that each customer obtains the latest technologies and while each subsystem remains mature. 

The performance has been improved and the functionality has been increased with new radar modes etc. The modern modular architecture of the Erieye system ensures that existing customers will benefit from this development through upgrades.
A complete system
The Erieye Mission System installed in an aircraft will form a complete AEW&C system. The on-board C2 system allows the operator to have full control of the Air and Sea Picture through inputs from radar, IFF, ESM and data links. 

An extensive communication suite is included, for both voice and data. Data Links are easily integrated to existing AOC with the Reporting Centre System. Mission Planning and Debriefing System, Mission Training System are examples of the ground segment.

Flexibility
The Erieye Mission is designed to operate with both jet and turboprop platforms. It is currently operational on three different platforms: Saab 340, Embraer-145 and Saab 2000. The number of operators can vary between 1 and 5, depending on the scenario. It can even be controlled remotely.

The first version of Erieye became operational in 1997 with the Swedish Air Force. Since then the system has been sold to many countries for use in both military and civil applications:

Sweden
Brazil
Greece
Mexico
Pakistan
Thailand
United Arab Emirates


Radar

Type: Pulse Doppler, multimode 
Antenna: Active Phased Array 
Frequency: S-band 
Instrumented range: 450 km 
Altitude coverage: > 20 km 
IFF-modes: 1, 2, 3/A, C, 4 and S 

Electronic Warfare
Wide-band ESM Saab HES-21 
Azimuth coverage 360º 
High sensitivity Digital Receivers 
High accuracy Interferometric Antennas 
SPS MAWS, RWR, LWS, CFDS 

Secure data communication
Dedicated data link Link-E 
NATO data links L16 and L11 

Secure voice communication National, NATO standard C2

Main functions: 

System and sensor management
Mission planning and simulation,
Track data processing,
Asset management and control,
Identification and allocation
Display system:

High-resolution flat-panel colour displays and touch-input display control
Geographical info

Digital map

Coverage

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## houshanghai

Mani2020 said:


> *@houshanghai*
> 
> the translation was not so appropriate so i find it very difficult to understand few things.also the name of Palestine was used quite often in the read ,was that just a typo or something else?





virusthis link is chinese  ..fyjs.cn

this article other link
&#182;&#166;&#202;&#162;&#194;&#219;&#204;&#179; &#190;&#252;&#202;&#194;&#204;&#236;&#181;&#216; &#214;&#208;&#185;&#250;&#212;&#164;&#190;&#175;&#187;&#250;&#179;&#246;&#191;&#218;&#176;&#205;&#187;&#249;&#203;&#185;&#204;&#185;----&#183;&#195;&#185;&#250;&#178;&#250;&#196;&#179;&#208;&#205;&#212;&#164;&#190;&#175;&#187;&#250;&#184;&#177;&#215;&#220;&#201;&#232;&#188;&#198;&#202;&#166;&#178;&#220;&#179;&#191;














Mani2020 said:


> *@houshanghai*
> 
> the translation was not so appropriate so i find it very difficult to understand few things.also the name of Palestine was used quite often in the read ,was that just a typo or something else?


google translate error.

&#24052;&#22522;&#26031;&#22374;=pakistan
&#24052;&#21202;&#26031;&#22374;=palestine
in chinese word ,it is difficult to identify them
sorry
the translation was not so accurate;bcz pic to chinese txt by software,then google translate it.

accurate translation need chinese member of good english abilities( ex.siegecrossbow aimarraul and so on.) to help


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## Mani2020

houshanghai said:


> virusthis link is chinese  ..fyjs.cn
> 
> this article other link
> ¶¦Ê¢ÂÛÌ³ ¾üÊÂÌìµØ ÖÐ¹úÔ¤¾¯»ú³ö¿Ú°Í»ùË¹Ì¹----·Ã¹ú²úÄ³ÐÍÔ¤¾¯»ú¸±×ÜÉè¼ÆÊ¦²Ü³¿
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> google translate error.
> 
> &#24052;&#22522;&#26031;&#22374;=pakistan
> &#24052;&#21202;&#26031;&#22374;=palestine
> in chinese word ,it is difficult to identify them



My PC is giving me Malware threat so i will not take risk this time

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## air marshal

*ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle AWACS*

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## air marshal



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## TaimiKhan

santro said:


> Article seems to imply that the ZDK-03 system will be compatible with link-16.. and if that is the case..then apparently the idea of only interfacing on the GCI level had been scrubbed for a more comprehensive AWACS capability.



Well Sir, since we discussed with regard to JF-17 communication system and data link being western, it makes complete sense that PAF would be going with Western data link / communication system on the ZDK-03 also, and what i heard is that hopefully F-16s might also be able to communicate as well as data transfer with the ZDK-03, there would be no two tier system for both the ZDK-03 & Saab-2000 AEW&C, rather it would be one complete system of communication. Erieye would be able to communicate with everything we have, as well as with ZDK-03 also, similarly ZDK-03 would be able to talk to every platform, hopefully F-16s too. 

More of your insight would be welcomed, but this is what i got from someone. 

Reason being the Chinese are perfectly able to manufacture stuff based on the Western Mil-STD guidelines if required by the client, so if it complies with the MIL-STD guidelines or the system is based on such codes and guidelines, it can well be integrated with any western system using the same MIL-STD guidelines, example is the JF-17 with MIL-STD set of protocols, making it completely compatible with the western weapons systems and other stuff.

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## SQ8

Taimi if you remember I stated a while back that in the end it was all about understanding the protocol....that the integration could be done.
However the statements by the Air Chief seemed to indicate otherwise.


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## fatman17

santro said:


> Taimi if you remember I stated a while back that in the end it was all about understanding the protocol....that the integration could be done.
> However the *statements* by the Air Chief seemed to indicate otherwise.



some things are better left in ambiguity!

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## air marshal

*JF-17's with Saab 2000 AEW&C on a mission during exercises High Mark 2010.*

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## air marshal

*The ZDK-03 AWACS escorted by Two F-16's.*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Taimur; rora I will wait for further news and confirmation from you regarding western origin aircraft integration with ZDK-03; your post caught my attention


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## Stealth_fighter




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## @rrows

anyone can post the picture of saab 2000 ground control system


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## houshanghai

Y8 AWACs Aircrafts new pic at the centre of aircraft testing in yanliang











link;

http://fanyi.youdao.com/WebpageTran...bs/htm_data/27/1101/305418.html&type=ZH_CN2EN

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## Thorough Pro

@rrows said:


> anyone can post the picture of saab 2000 ground control system




You can watch it here.


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## Mani2020

houshanghai said:


> Y8 AWACs Aircrafts new pic at the centre of aircraft testing in yanliang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link;
> 
> ????: http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1101/305418.html



doesn't the platform look ugly specially the vertical stabilizer part

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## wangrong

delet self


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## Imran Khan

Mani2020 said:


> doesn't the platform look ugly specially the vertical stabilizer part



its an AWACS sir we dont need to make it beautiful but we need to use it for aesa platform which can detect 450 rang any flying object .


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## DANGER-ZONE

houshanghai said:


> Y8 AWACs Aircrafts new pic at the centre of aircraft testing in yanliang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link;
> 
> ????: http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1101/305418.html



Point to be noted here,
The aircraft is same old prototype 10518 but the radar is similar to KJ-2000's. 




see the triangular design on the radar of Y-8 is same as KJ-2000 radar.remember half January has been over and there is no sign of ZDK-03 induction into PAF. they would be testing new radar for ZDK-03 because the radar they had on ZDK-03 was same like this one 




it was also reported to have AEW radar Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force.
i am sure that they delayed ZDK-03 induction for something fishy, the answer is up there.

look here the similar radar of ZDK-03 and y-8

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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


> Point to be noted here,
> The aircraft is same old prototype 10518 but the radar is similar to KJ-2000's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> see the triangular design on the radar of Y-8 is same as KJ-2000 radar.remember half January has been over and there is no sign of ZDK-03 induction into PAF. they would be testing new radar for ZDK-03 because the radar they had on ZDK-03 was same like this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it was also reported to have AEW radar Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force.
> i am sure that they delayed ZDK-03 induction for something fishy, the answer is up there.
> 
> look here the similar radar of ZDK-03 and y-8




also look at the aircraft number which is used in above pics to test the radar that has some rectangular forming on the radome and then look at the aircraft number which have same radome as of Kj-2000 both have same number that is *"T0518"*
here is the pic

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## Mughal-Prince

houshanghai said:


> Y8 AWACs Aircrafts new pic at the centre of aircraft testing in yanliang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link;
> 
> ????: http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1101/305418.html



Its look like an AESA type see the yellow triangle highlight up at antenna housing ...


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## DANGER-ZONE

Mani2020 said:


> also look at the aircraft number which is used in above pics to test the radar that has some rectangular forming on the radome and then look at the aircraft number which have same radome as of Kj-2000 both have same number that is *"T0518"*
> here is the pic



the same thing i am trying to point out here,
this prototype T0518 is the same bird that came Pakistan for evaluation and used as a testing aircraft for PAF AWACs development.
So, as our ZDK-03 is still there and delivery schedule yet not confirmed, this could be a new development for our AWACs.


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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


> the same thing i am trying to point out here,
> this prototype T0518 is the same bird that came Pakistan for evaluation and used as a testing aircraft for PAF AWACs development.
> So, as our ZDK-03 is still there and delivery schedule yet not confirmed, this could be a new development for our AWACs.



But i wonder if it was the case then why PAF didn't go with this radar in the first place why only now.

May be this aircraft is a testbed platform for all Chinese AWAC system so may be China is testing some new system for PLAAF or PLAAN or testing existing kj-2000 system on different platform then il-76 (breiev)


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## Luftwaffe

The variant Pakistan Air Force is getting is Sleeker if you notice in the picture, its a standard platform, we require standard not a queen. 

Is there any active program Y-8/ZDK-03 based Maritime Surveillance and Anti Submarine Warfare. Could become a good platform for Navy.


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## SBD-3

looking at the latest pic




and comparing it with the KKE pic, I dont think that we will have KKE with TR modules over it




but why it has not been inducted is that because of the yellow scheme, indicating a test platform. Development makes sense as i posted the interview of AWACS expert of China indicating that in future, China will have a whole family of Airborn radars (now they have KJ-2000,KJ-200,ZDK-03 etc) so the delay does not necessarily means that PAF has changed its plans cus if it would have, then we would not have seen the role out ceremoney


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## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> looking at the latest pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and comparing it with the KKE pic, I dont think that we will have KKE with TR modules over it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but why it has not been inducted is that because of the yellow scheme, indicating a test platform. Development makes sense as i posted the interview of AWACS expert of China indicating that in future, China will have a whole family of Airborn radars (now they have KJ-2000,KJ-200,ZDK-03 etc) so the delay does not necessarily means that PAF has changed its plans cus if it would have, then we would not have seen the role out ceremoney



Yellow scheme does not means its a test platform, it means it just rolled out of the production line and after formal testing or initial testing the color scheme of the user will be put. 

The platform will take another few months before finally coming to Pakistan as it needs to be tested, flown and all its functions tested out fully till its 100% fit for induction. This is the patron followed. 

Remember how the Erieye spent months in the manufacturing country before it finally came to Pakistan.

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## TaimiKhan

danger-zone said:


> the same thing i am trying to point out here,
> this prototype T0518 is the same bird that came Pakistan for evaluation and used as a testing aircraft for PAF AWACs development.
> So, as our ZDK-03 is still there and delivery schedule yet not confirmed, this could be a new development for our AWACs.



Not a new development for our AWAC program. Had Pakistan wanted or the Chinese wanted to provide AESA based platform to Pakistan, we would have gone with it, but we choose the other option, an ESA radar platform but not AESA. 

This T0518 is a testing platform, meaning it first tested one set of radar set on it, once that was finalized and a production model made which we saw with the Air Chief Marshal pic in it, this testing platform had done its job and now it seems to have been fitted with a triangular placed AESA radar for testing and evaluation. 

My hunch is its for the Chinese Air force as they had not inducted in numbers the linear shaped KJ-200 in numbers as it has certain deficiency with no 360 coverage, and their KJ-2000 platform is facing a problem due to non availability of IL-76/78 platforms from Russia, thus CAF may have now opted to get a 360 coverage capability by having a triangular placed AESA radar fitted to their own made Y-8 platforms, and this T0518 is the testing platform for this new concept to be tested out. 

Our model has been made and most probably now in testing stage and improvements or modifications would be done based on the testing done on this PAF version of the AWAC.

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## Cold-Fire

nice!!!!!!!!!


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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> The variant Pakistan Air Force is getting is Sleeker if you notice in the picture, its a standard platform, we require standard not a queen.
> 
> Is there any active program Y-8/ZDK-03 based Maritime Surveillance and Anti Submarine Warfare. Could become a good platform for Navy.



none that we know of but i remember reading that the Y-8 may be evaluated as a 'Gunship' ala C-130's various variants


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## Mani2020




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## Stealth

houshanghai said:


> Y8 AWACs Aircrafts new pic at the centre of aircraft testing in yanliang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link;
> 
> ????: http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1101/305418.html



Most ugly aircraft i have ever seen! yuck!


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## EagleEyes

I agree that the above aircraft is not good looking. However, what matters is its effectiveness rather than its look.

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## Mani2020

WebMaster said:


> I agree that the above aircraft is not good looking. However, what matters is its effectiveness rather than its look.



but still beauty is always a plus point .people perceive from what they see


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Beuti is lies in the eyes of the army that knows every move of its enemy .... you move a muscle , we know what you did


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## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> Not a new development for our AWAC program. Had Pakistan wanted or the Chinese wanted to provide AESA based platform to Pakistan, we would have gone with it, but we choose the other option, an ESA radar platform but not AESA.
> 
> This T0518 is a testing platform, meaning it first tested one set of radar set on it, once that was finalized and a production model made which we saw with the Air Chief Marshal pic in it, this testing platform had done its job and now it seems to have been fitted with a triangular placed AESA radar for testing and evaluation.
> 
> My hunch is its for the Chinese Air force as they had not inducted in numbers the linear shaped KJ-200 in numbers as it has certain deficiency with no 360 coverage, and their KJ-2000 platform is facing a problem due to non availability of IL-76/78 platforms from Russia, thus CAF may have now opted to get a 360 coverage capability by having a triangular placed AESA radar fitted to their own made Y-8 platforms, and this T0518 is the testing platform for this new concept to be tested out.
> 
> Our model has been made and most probably now in testing stage and improvements or modifications would be done based on the testing done on this PAF version of the AWAC.


exactly!....I think amiarraul also mentioned this deficency when one posted questioned why PAF did not go with KJ-2000.


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## air marshal



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## xuwei



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## IceCold

danger-zone said:


> Point to be noted here,
> The aircraft is same old prototype 10518 but the radar is similar to KJ-2000's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> see the triangular design on the radar of Y-8 is same as KJ-2000 radar.remember half January has been over and there is no sign of ZDK-03 induction into PAF. they would be testing new radar for ZDK-03 because the radar they had on ZDK-03 was same like this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it was also reported to have AEW radar Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force.
> i am sure that they delayed ZDK-03 induction for something fishy, the answer is up there.
> 
> look here the similar radar of ZDK-03 and y-8



I have a question here. The old pic has only four blades per engine where as in the pic where PAF officials are present, there are six blades per engine............people are saying its the same old frame.......then why do we have a difference in engine blades? or is it just that the frames are same but engines are different?


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## TaimiKhan

IceCold said:


> I have a question here. The old pic has only four blades per engine where as in the pic where PAF officials are present, there are six blades per engine............people are saying its the same old frame.......then why do we have a difference in engine blades? or is it just that the frames are same but engines are different?



PAF ZDK-03 AEW&C is a completely new platform, Y-8F600 version, the older testbed was a Y-8F400 version most probably, and its still with the Chinese and working as a testbed, now fitted with a round dish having 3-sided triangular placed AESA radar in it just like its bigger brother KJ-2000 platform. 

PAF would be getting brand new Y-8F600, which are changed ones compared to Chinese versions. 

For reading:

Yun-8 (Y-8 Cub) Turboprop Transport Aircraft - SinoDefence.com

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## Silk

The more blades are quieter and more efficient. PAF asked for inprovements after testing the old.


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## Stealth_fighter



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## Desert Fox

Stealth said:


> Most ugly aircraft i have ever seen! yuck!



don't know about you but i love it


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## monitor

---------- Post added at 06:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:46 PM ----------

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## air marshal



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## Silk

air marshal said:


>



These two pics show that the dish is rotating.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Silk said:


> These two pics show that the dish is rotating.



nope....rotodome not rotating dish/disc.
this is a testing aircraft for AWACs and recently came to surface with a new kind of rotodome. same bird with an old kind of rotodme was evaluated by PAF long ago.


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## SBD-3

Silk said:


> These two pics show that the dish is rotating.



from the second pic, i can't ascertain whether its a TR module (which needs not rotation) or the one in the 1st Picture


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## khurasaan1

SilentNinja said:


> don't know about you but i love it



looks beautiful for our enemies..bro...


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## TOPGUN

I hope PAF will soon release actual pic's of the aircraft soon .


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## air marshal



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## razgriz19

air marshal said:


>



this is an old aircraft!
and the one for PAF is much better!!!!!

---------- Post added at 08:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------




TOPGUN said:


> I hope PAF will soon release actual pic's of the aircraft soon .



the actual picture is out!!







^^^^this aircraft was completed on nov 13 under designation of ZDK-03 airborne early warning system. and PAF will recieve its first aircrfat this year!




http://asian-defence.blogspot.com/2010/11/paf-wants-more-chinese-systems.html


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## rajan_united

With advanced missiles like *Novator K-100* i wonder what is the significance of AWACS esp in INDO- PAK case.


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## SBD-3

rajan_united said:


> With advanced missiles like *Novator K-100* i wonder what is the significance of AWACS esp in INDO- PAK case.


 its been two decades while Russians are trying to design such a missile, given the complexity of such a system and possible ineffectiveness of such a system i.e. AESA born AWACs agumented by ECM capability wont find it much difficult to neutralize a launch made from 200KM. The Chinese have also come up with a S-300 based development FT-2000 and Kh-31P but given the ever enhancing ECM capability of AWACs platforms i doubt long range shot will be much effective. But anyways, uptill date, it remains "in development"

P.S:Last time somebody on wiki even edited to have this missile in service with IAF.


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## Donatello

hasnain0099 said:


> its been two decades while Russians are trying to design such a missile, given the complexity of such a system and possible ineffectiveness of such a system i.e. AESA born AWACs agumented by ECM capability wont find it much difficult to neutralize a launch made from 200KM. The Chinese have also come up with a S-300 based development FT-2000 and Kh-31P but given the ever enhancing ECM capability of AWACs platforms i doubt long range shot will be much effective. But anyways, uptill date, it remains "in development"
> 
> P.S:Last time somebody on wiki even edited to have this missile in service with IAF.





Indian fanboys you know....have been choking the Internet since ages.


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## SQ8

The problem with such a missile as the Novator.. or even the US pheonix.. was the need for constant updates ..i.e mid course updates for a good pk.. since even a slow moving target such as a AWAC or bomber can change its position by a relative distance while the missile is in flight.
The AWG-9 of the tomcat was fairly effective in tracking targets while being innocous about itself.. the Mig-31 has also scored kills with the AA-9.. 
Still.. unless the radar itself is a LPI.. the target knows it is being hunted.. and can take evasive maneuvers..not to mention blurt out massive amounts of ECM to avoid being hit..
Now.. the effectiveness of the Novator may come in if an attacker manages to come in through the initial screen.. then.. taking a shot from a novator type missile from 70km out.. may have a good chance of succes.. provided the radar can maintan a lock under jamming..
With AESA though.. I suppose its all possible.

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## TOPGUN

razgriz19 said:


> this is an old aircraft!
> and the one for PAF is much better!!!!!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> the actual picture is out!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^^this aircraft was completed on nov 13 under designation of ZDK-03 airborne early warning system. and PAF will recieve its first aircrfat this year!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Wants More Chinese Systems ~ ASIAN TECH NEWS




Iam not blind thankyou i have seen this pic many times already i ment more pics then just one same ole pic that we have all been seeing so far thx.


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## razgriz19

TOPGUN said:


> Iam not blind thankyou i have seen this pic many times already i ment more pics then just one same ole pic that we have all been seeing so far thx.



well then wait for the aircraft to come out, hopefully in couple of months u will see it roaring across the sky!


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## a1b2c145

monitor said:


> ---------- Post added at 06:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:46 PM ----------



 Hey! The beam is for F16 while the KJ200 is for JF17.

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## Stealth_fighter

is it gonna be something like this?the picture below is KJ-2000 i reckon...


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## SQ8

According to the recent news..
the Chinese system will communicate with all aircraft in the PAF..

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## DANGER-ZONE

>



*Testing of AESA radar on platform T0518 CONFIRMED !*

ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (serial # T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a tranditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as two small vertial tail stablizers. The Y-8 AWACS protoype was promoted to Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now dubbed ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring 6-blade propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 has been ordered by PAF in a $278m deal. The first ZDK-03 rolled out in November 2010 at SAC, with the delivery to be scheduled by the end of 2010. ZDK-03 is expected to serve as an airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. *Recent images indicated that the T0518 testbed has been further modified to carry a fixed rotodom with three AESA antennas installed inside, which could be a downgraded version of the KJ-2000 AWACS system to be installed onboard the Y-7 shipborne AWACS *(see above). 
_- Last Updated 1/15/11_

Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

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## Indestructible

Probably the intention was to show the compatibility of local made JF-17 with Saab Erieye and US made F-16s with Chinese AWACs.


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## TaimiKhan

santro said:


> According to the recent news..
> the Chinese system will communicate with all aircraft in the PAF..



Have been saying this all along


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## air marshal

From IDEAS Defence Exhibition 2006

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## air marshal

> *Pakistan bridges technology gap with India*
> 
> NEWDELHI: In 2009 when the first of the three Russian-Israeli spy planes arrived in New Delhi, it was viewed as the Indian Air Forces big technological leap leaving adeversaries like Pakistan behind. Two years down the line, Pakistan has knocked much of this technology gap off with help from China by adding planes that can peep inside Indian border and thwart aerial strikes.
> 
> IAF bosses now admit that it was time to redraw its plans regarding acquistion of more Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems, popularly known as eye in the sky because of its capacity to scan wide areas to dissolve any aerial threats from missiles and combat jets.
> 
> The IAF has in its fleet three Israeli Phalcon systems, arguably one of the best of the AEW&C available anywhere in the world bought for a whopping $1.1 billion. Mounted on a modified Russian transporter IL-76, Phalcon is central to IAFs plans to maintain air superiority by quickly and simultanesously searching, tracking and locking targets spread over a big area.
> 
> Pakistan has bridged this technological divide to a greater extent, said a senior officer about Pakistan Air Force inductions like Swedish Erieye System and much bigger Chinas ZDK-03 which, like the Indian Phalcon, is mounted on Russian Il-76. The official said that Pakistan is looking to have atleast 10 of these aircraft which is too big a number for a small country.
> 
> It has led to an AEW&C race in the sub-continent with India getting ready for a repeat order of Phalcons. All eyes were also on Defence Research and Development Organisations (DRDO) own plans to develop an AEW&C at home which is going to be ready for trials soon. The Indian system would be mounted on Brazilian Embraer EMB-145 aircraft and the IAF hopes the DRDO will be able to deliver a good platform without much delays.
> 
> Ahead of the DRDO trials, Pakistan would induct first of four ZDK-03 AEW&C developed by China in a move that has generated some interest. Little is known about ZDK-03 which is said to be another product of Chinese reverse engineering, according to experts.
> 
> Pakistan already has three Erieye systems bought from the Swedish company SAAB as part of its Project Horizon. These are being operated by Chaklala-based 13th squadron.
> 
> Experts said the PAFs sector operations centers were connected by Erieye Ground Interface Segment, as has been the case with other operators like Brazil, Greece and Mexcio that use Erieyes. Brazilian AEW expert Sergio Ricardo told the Express that India still has an edge because the Israeli system is much more advanced but others were catching up fast. The Phalcons were not sold to China by Israel under the US pressure.
> 
> Pakistan bridges technology gap with India | Indian Air Force | Pakistan Air Force | Indian Express

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## fatman17

*The official said that Pakistan is looking to have atleast 10 of these aircraft which is too big a number for a small country*

thats the reason i did'nt post it !!!

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## air marshal



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## Arsalan

> PAF has plans to induct a total of four Shaanxi ZDK-03 AWACS aircraft in a $278m deal. ZDK-03 also features a solid nose with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as two small vertial tail stablizers.
> 
> PAF signed a contract in 2008 with China Electronics Technology Group Corporation for the joint development of four Shaanxi ZDK-03 AWACS aircraft configured to Pakistan's specifications.
> 
> Shaanxi ZDK-03 AWACS radar is reported to have a greater range than that of the PAF's Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C radar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shaanxi ZDK-03 have an active electronically scanned array radar, and its open architecture electronics will allow for future developments and upgrades
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shaanxi ZDK-03 Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) aircraft (serial# T0518/Project 021). Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a tranditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ZDK-03 AWACS aircraft serial# T0518 for PAF to test radar at the centre of aircraft testing in Yanliang, China. ZDK-03 is expected to serve as an airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF.



quick review!!

Best regards!
Arsalan Aslam

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## fatman17

* ZDK-03* 

ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (serial # T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a tranditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as two small vertial tail stablizers. The Y-8 AWACS protoype was promoted to Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now dubbed ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring 6-blade propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 has been ordered by PAF in a $278m deal. The first ZDK-03 rolled out in November 2010 at SAC, with the delivery to be scheduled by the end of 2010. ZDK-03 is expected to serve as an airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. Recent images indicated that the T0518 testbed has been further modified to carry a fixed rotodom with three AESA antennas installed inside, which could be a downgraded version of the KJ-2000 AWACS system to be installed onboard the Y-7 carrierborne AWACS.


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## Thorough Pro

Hey! What about the third Saab 2000 Erieye plane, did we received it or not, AFAIK it was scheduled to be delivered in Jan' 11. Any news about it?


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## us1956

that is a rip off for 4, Pakistan makes "people" jealous 
the harder Pakistan pushes on China, the better toy Pakistan will get which also help to improve her products in over all


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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> * ZDK-03*
> 
> ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (serial # T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a tranditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as two small vertial tail stablizers. The Y-8 AWACS protoype was promoted to Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now dubbed ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring 6-blade propellers.* It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 has been ordered by PAF in a $278m deal. The first ZDK-03 rolled out in November 2010 at SAC, with the delivery to be scheduled by the end of 2010.* ZDK-03 is expected to serve as an airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. Recent images indicated that the T0518 testbed has been further modified to carry a fixed rotodom with three AESA antennas installed inside, which could be a downgraded version of the KJ-2000 AWACS system to be installed onboard the Y-7 carrierborne AWACS.


 
Sir i am damn sure that new radar under going test on T0518, is ours. thats why the delivery of ZDK-03 is delayed. i am pretty about the rumors that were circulating on forums about ZDK-03 that it will be a smaller version of Kj-2000, is going to be true.


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## DANGER-ZONE

*Saab 2000 Erieye model at PAF Museum Karachi.*

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## abdulbarijan

I wanted to ask this for a long time...
well we can track high speed land attack missiles from AWACS thanks to the AESA radar they have,we can also guide a BVR missile of F-16 or JF-17 through an AWACS so my question is can we use this BVR missile (possibly Aim-120 C (5) or SD-10) and guide it through an AWACS and shoot down a target ie a high speed incoming missile (U may know which missile im talkin abt  )


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## SQ8

You could in theory.. 
Target handoff would have to be seamless.. though..


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## Silk

abdulbarijan said:


> I wanted to ask this for a long time...
> well we can track high speed land attack missiles from AWACS thanks to the AESA radar they have,we can also guide a BVR missile of F-16 or JF-17 through an AWACS so my question is can we use this BVR missile (possibly Aim-120 C (5) or SD-10) and guide it through an AWACS and shoot down a target ie a high speed incoming missile (U may know which missile im talkin abt  )


 
Not a stupid question. Every missile with lock after launch can basically do that. You provide location. They carrier launches it with that in mind.


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## DANGER-ZONE

danger-zone said:


> Sir i am damn sure that new radar under going test on T0518, is ours. thats why the delivery of ZDK-03 is delayed. i am pretty about the rumors that were circulating on forums about ZDK-03 that it will be a smaller version of Kj-2000, is going to be true.


 


danger-zone said:


> *Testing of AESA radar on platform T0518 CONFIRMED !*
> 
> ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (serial # T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a tranditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as two small vertial tail stablizers. The Y-8 AWACS protoype was promoted to Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now dubbed ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring 6-blade propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 has been ordered by PAF in a $278m deal. The first ZDK-03 rolled out in November 2010 at SAC, with the delivery to be scheduled by the end of 2010. ZDK-03 is expected to serve as an airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. *Recent images indicated that the T0518 testbed has been further modified to carry a fixed rotodom with three AESA antennas installed inside, which could be a downgraded version of the KJ-2000 AWACS system to be installed onboard the Y-7 shipborne AWACS *(see above).
> _- Last Updated 1/15/11_
> 
> Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force


 
As i mentioned before, new development of AESA radar on T0518 is for PAF ZDK-03.

here is the confirmation ..... 



> Pakistan will also receive in the middle of the year its first Shaanxi ZDK-03. *Pakistan has four on order, and the first rolled out of the Shaanxi Aircraft factory in November. But Rao says China is still busy installing the equipment and doing the necessary upgrades*.


Pakistan Air Chief Outlines Procurement Plans | AVIATION WEEK

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## BATMAN

> Pakistan will also receive in the middle of the year its first Shaanxi ZDK-03. Pakistan has four on order, and the first rolled out of the Shaanxi Aircraft factory in November. But Rao says China is still busy installing the equipment and doing the necessary upgrades.



Erieye is also expected to arrive mid of this year.
By the end of this year PAF will have lots of new toys to play with.


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## razgriz19

how many Erieyes do we currently have?


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## BATMAN

razgriz19 said:


> how many Erieyes do we currently have?


 
Last one is expected out of 4 total.
This means we have 3.


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## TOPGUN

Howcome we don't see any pic's or videos of them nor of the tankers...


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## F-16_Falcon

Do you have latest pic of tanker and awacs in pakistan?


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## Super Falcon

well we need some srious stuff for PAF not same old crap


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## TOPGUN

F-16_Falcon said:


> Do you have latest pic of tanker and awacs in pakistan?


 
Are you asking me a question or trying to be a smartass ?


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## khurasaan1

BATMAN said:


> Last one is expected out of 4 total.
> This means we have 3.


I guess we r getting the last one in June 2011, hopefully...


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## air marshal

*April 2011 - JF-17's with Saab 2000 AEW&C on a mission during exercises High Mark 2010.*

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> how many Erieyes do we currently have?



2 delivered so far - rest by the end of 2011

I stand corrected!

Saab 2000

Delivered; 1
Current; 1 
- In service from September 2008

- Note: 1 example acquired as a training platform for the 4 AEW&C-equipped aircraft. Handed-over in Sweden on 26th September 2008 & delivered to Pakistan on September 29th.

Saab 2000 AEW&C Erieye

Delivered; 3
Current; 3
On Order;1

- In service from January 2010

- Note: Contract agreed in 2005; renegotiated in May 2007 with the number of airframes being reduced from 5 to 4. Initial delivery had been due for early 2009, with induction of the type into the PAF expected in September 2009, although this has been somewhat delayed. First example rolled-out by Saab on 3rd April 2008 prior to installation of full systems fit. The first two aircraft were delivered to Pakistan on 8th December 2009 & 24th April 2010, respectively. Although all 4 examples were due to have entered service by the end of 2010, the outstanding aircraft is now scheduled for delivery in mid-2011

AFI

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## blackcobran

jaman_thakkar said:


> Phalcons can easily jam the elctronics of eyrie and make it isolate from its ground based radars and PAF aircrafts.then it will be an easy target for IAF fighters.


O really!!! then we are just having them as toys.


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## Silk

blackcobran said:


> O really!!! then we are just having them as toys.


 
A... The advantage of the Erieye is that it can perform perfect even under high ECM environment. People have no clue what they write down.


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## flameboard

Any future purchase is most likely going to be KJ2000

"Chinese officials have claimed that the domestic radar is able to track more targets at greater ranges than the Israeli Phalcon radar which was offered in the late 1990s"

KJ-2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or maybe Pakistan will set aside some money start its own project.


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## Luftwaffe

There is no need for a KJ-2000 based platform for Pakistan even into the future perhaps after 2025 but that too could be based on y-20 transport in making, Swedish AEW&C and KJ-2000/Y-8 based platforms are more than sufficient.

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## raveolution

flameboard said:


> Any future purchase is most likely going to be KJ2000
> 
> "Chinese officials have claimed that the domestic radar is able to track more targets at greater ranges than the Israeli Phalcon radar which was offered in the late 1990s"
> 
> KJ-2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Or maybe Pakistan will set aside some money start its own project.


 
ANY sources for your 3 statements would be appreciated.

PAF is purchasing the KJ-200. They have no intention in purchasing the KJ-2000 due to many factors, one of them being restricted airframe availability.
The Israeli Phalcon is considered one of, if not the best AWACS in the world. Just because it was first inducted in the 90's does not mean that it is obsolete. It has been upgraded as time passes. China has developed its AESA radar only 3-4 years back and it will take time for it to mature.

Where you are right is that the PAF may start its indigenous program, but this will not be anytime soon as their requirements for 7-8 AWACS have already been met.


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## Luftwaffe

I agree with raveolution. PAF is not looking to use these AWACS/AEW&C globally so therefore we are not in need of any larger complicated, platform, PAF is satisfied with swedish and China AEW&C that Pakistan is still testing.

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## houshanghai

new variation Y8 








T0518

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## Silk

We have been told for decades that Israeli pilots are the best. Their planes are the best. Their tanks are the best. Yet we do know that they are humans just like us, their planes crash or get shot down just like ours, their Merkava isn't unbeatable just like our tanks. We should not degrade them nor accept them as our superiors. We all are humans.

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## khurasaan1

Yes bro.! Ure right....they r in superiority complex...all the time ....let them be happi....in their dreamz....


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## krash

Ive read somewhere, dont no how true this is, that the Israeli airforce used to call them selves the invincibles and then the war happened, the Pakistani pilots happened and the "invincible" was untagged. 
And I have definitely read somewhere a statement by an Israeli air force personal that they seriously respect the PAF and its pilots as they believe that they are some of the best in the world. This is the proper way of discourse between the two: mutual respect.


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## SQ8

krash said:


> Ive read somewhere, dont no how true this is, that the Israeli airforce used to call them selves the invincibles and then the war happened, the Pakistani pilots happened and the "invincible" was untagged.
> And I have definitely read somewhere a statement by an Israeli air force personal that they seriously respect the PAF and its pilots as they believe that they are some of the best in the world. This is the proper way of discourse between the two: mutual respect.


 
They probably never did.. statements by Instructors teaching the IDaF from the USAF,RAF and other nations gave them the moniker of "some of the best pilots in the world".. 
The fact that most Arab pilots were lazy bums who did not listen to even an ounce of their training.. ignored operational readiness exercises.. and flew using a rigid soviet doctrine that gave little in the way of pilot independence.. helped a lot as well.

The kills by PAF pilots were due to our better training.. and independent thinking.. the IDaF pilots did not expect initiative.. they had a pattern that worked on the Arabs.. but was useless against pilots taught to think aggressively in combat. And IAF did assist the IDaF in 73.. I suspect they were given a poor account of us by the then braggy Indians.. costing their allies in the IDaF..otherwise the IDaF would have adapted knowing there were better pilots operating in the area..

The reason why the IDaF pilots hold respect for the PAF .. is not just because of the 67 and 73 participation by PAF pilots.. but also because of impromptu training sessions together in the US. Some of the first batches of PAF pilots trained alongside IDaF pilots..
Verifiable by a former USAF instructor on another forum(most will figure out where).. during study groups.. brienfings.. etc..
PAF and IDaF pilots tended to stick together..(doesn't mean they went to bars or partied with the IDaF personnel.. but strictly professionally and academically)..showed similar mindset when it came to flying and air combat.
Its how the pilot training doctrine is developed... and how we are trained to fight.. 
This was back in the 80's.. 
Today's IDaF pilot is years ahead of the PAF guy simply because of the technological gap.. and having a twenty year lead in the new concepts of air warfare.. BVR, advanced EW.. etc. Although.. the pace at which the PAF is catching up on these trends has skyrocketed in the past 5 years.
and Silk is a 100% right.. we forget the Israeli's and the Americans.. along with us.. are still humans. nobody is perfect.. and nobody should be feared as such either..(although it doesn't mean being cocky and metaphorically ;picking a fight with a carbine armed guy using a knife.. as some...naive members here think and wish to do).

Now.. may we please stick to the AEW discussions..

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## MastanKhan

Santro,

I had to read the name of the poster twice just to make sure that it was not me----. Good job


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## Capt.Popeye

MastanKhan said:


> Santro,
> 
> I had to read the name of the poster twice just to make sure that it was not me----. Good job


 
@ MastanKhan,
offtopic, but....
Welcome back Mk, nice to see you here after a hiatus!


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## Mani2020

MastanKhan said:


> Santro,
> 
> I had to read the name of the poster twice just to make sure that it was not me----. Good job


 
welcome back MK with another funny avatar of yours lol ,was missing your criticizing comments (both constructive as well as destructive lol jst kidding)

and not to mention your signature line "my man"


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## TOPGUN

This is off toipic but relates to what some of you have been talking about. About 7 years ago before me and family moved in to our new house mashallah i had come to find out that in our old neighborhood one of our neighbor's was a old israeli AF retd pilot i belive he was a capt that flew (kfir,F-4 & f-16 A's also tankers) and was living with his wife and kids in the US due to their own internel family problems back home so they moved from israel to the US. He now flies for american airlines . We become quiet friendly and as i would see him come home in his airline unform and asked him one day whom he flies for and come to find out he was a airline pilot for american airlines. Furthermore, i could tell that he was not a american when i spoke to him at times i told him that i great passoin for avation and for PAF, fighter jets in general etc... its then when he told me he was ex IAF i told him i had a great deal of respect for his IAF he smiled and just told me that IAF has great respect for PAF and its pilots and always has known what they are capble of which not only shocked me but made me proud not mention him and his wife loved desi food which my mom made for them twice thought i share my two cents this is a true story just goes to show you that what great respect IAF personal have for PAF and iam sure viseversa . I respect him till this day and often see him at times in the neighborhood grocery store and he always greats us the same way in a friendly manner after all we are all human end of the day .

P.s He also gave me a small model of kfir aircraft as a friendly gift which i have i will try to post a pic of it when i can .

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## Stealth_fighter

i found this video on youtube, quiet old though.sorry if posted before

[video]http://youtu.be/Bt8piWPhJpY[/video]


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## Super Falcon

well i thionk we have done good job on Awacs now time is let us know what this chinese AWACS is capable of


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## Burger Boy

What is the range of zdk awacs, is it higher of lower than Erieye? I know Erieye's range is ~400-450km.

Also I'm a little confused as to what purpose the P-3 Orion aircraft will be used for, I've seen some sources suggesting that the P-3 that Pakistan received could have the same AWACS system as E-2 Hawkeye, however, I know that in most cases P-3 is used for maritime patrol or anti-submarine warfare. Has there ever been a P-3 based AWACS built for any country?


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## fatman17

d1rty Minded said:


> What is the range of zdk awacs, is it higher of lower than Erieye? I know Erieye's range is ~400-450km.
> 
> Also I'm a little confused as to what purpose the P-3 Orion aircraft will be used for, I've seen some sources suggesting that the P-3 that Pakistan received could have the same AWACS system as E-2 Hawkeye, however, I know that in most cases P-3 is used for maritime patrol or anti-submarine warfare. *Has there ever been a P-3 based AWACS built for any country*?



the US Coast Guard use the P-3H


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## Donatello

d1rty Minded said:


> What is the range of zdk awacs, is it higher of lower than Erieye? I know Erieye's range is ~400-450km.
> 
> Also I'm a little confused as to what purpose the P-3 Orion aircraft will be used for, I've seen some sources suggesting that the P-3 that Pakistan received could have the same AWACS system as E-2 Hawkeye, however, I know that in most cases P-3 is used for maritime patrol or anti-submarine warfare. Has there ever been a P-3 based AWACS built for any country?


 

P3Cs are for maritime patrol, and some aircraft are to be converted with E2000 radar, like two or three of them.

The primary purpose is for PN to hunt for ships and submarines while keeping a watch in the air.


While PAF would use it AWACs to cover Pakistani airspace.

P3Cs can carry weapons.......PAF AWACs can't.


So they serve their respective users well.


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## Dazzler

The range is higher than Erieye but exactly how much, this cannot be exposed as of now.

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## mughaljee

will some one guide me , what are the capabilities of self defense of Pakistan AWACs/AEW&Cs Aircrafts ?
(Some one Fire Missile e.t.c)


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## Dazzler

Chaff and flares, jamming incoming signals, an ever present fighter escort as they are considered as high value assets and lastly the advantage of a SAM coverage since these assets never leave home territory. Pretty sufficient if you ask me

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## DANGER-ZONE

^ Bro Nabil what do you say about this info .... http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...n-awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-131.html#post1529835

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## Dazzler

I appreciate your research skills bro. Still remember your JFT wingtip rail BVR capability info. Great job!

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## A.Muqeet khan

hey nabil i wanna know is the anti jamming capability of Chinese system or Swedish system is great ?


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## Silk

AESA has some great options. It can control a beam and is very resistant against jamming. Both Swedisch and Chinese have the AESA. One should look into the software (subroutines) to check how it copes with jamming but if you ask me it is pretty good and probably comparable. Even our F16's can jam fast and effective but do not have the RAM to do that during flight. If a new radar gets active it needs to be reprogrammed at the base. The AWACS can do that when they are online.

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## Silk

nabil_05 said:


> I appreciate your research skills bro. Still remember your JFT wingtip rail BVR capability info. Great job!


 
I hope we see the increase of the mainwing-size to get that wingtip BVR... We need that for low wingloading in case of Ra'ad or bigger fueltank/CFT.


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## MastanKhan

Silk said:


> I hope we see the increase of the mainwing-size to get that wingtip BVR... We need that for low wingloading in case of Ra'ad or bigger fueltank/CFT.


 
Ra'ad type missions are specialty missions----there would not be any other weapons load on the aircraft---the aircraft has a specific goal---just to reach its target and deliver the goods----like some of the deep strike missions of the F 16's in iraq----all alone after a certain point---no missiles no ammo in the gun---just the plane and the bomb.

You start putting too much stuff on a small aircraft---you defeat the purpose of its design----.

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## Manticore




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## Manticore




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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Ra'ad type missions are specialty missions----there would not be any other weapons load on the aircraft---the aircraft has a specific goal---just to reach its target and deliver the goods----like some of the deep strike missions of the F 16's in iraq----all alone after a certain point---no missiles no ammo in the gun---just the plane and the bomb.
> 
> You start putting too much stuff on a small aircraft---you defeat the purpose of its design----.


 
Id disagree MK.. 
FA/18's regularly dropped bombs and then assumed an air combat role in Iraq.. 
even with two Cruise missiles on stations 3 & 5.. you have four usable stations.. 
in case you carry a centerline tank..
Even with three centerline tanks.. you can make your way home.
but that is left to the F-16's to punch it out that deep.. and they can with 3 tanks.. carry four LGB''s.. 2 AMRAAMs.. and 2 sidewinders..
Thats more than enough to fight your way back.

As far as the jamming ability is concerned.. 
If its a noise jammer.. then it has to be able to overpower the other emitter.. however.. that means it has to deal with some really powerful radars...
with AESA in play.. jamming will significantly lose its effectiveness.. 
and we havent been sold the DRFM on the Jammers meant for the F-16's.. 
and there is a low likelihood that anything akin to DRFM will come on the thunder pre 2015.


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## MastanKhan

Santro said:


> Id disagree MK..
> FA/18's regularly dropped bombs and then assumed an air combat role in Iraq..
> even with two Cruise missiles on stations 3 & 5.. you have four usable stations..
> in case you carry a centerline tank..
> Even with three centerline tanks.. you can make your way home.
> but that is left to the F-16's to punch it out that deep.. and they can with 3 tanks.. carry four LGB''s.. 2 AMRAAMs.. and 2 sidewinders..
> Thats more than enough to fight your way back.
> 
> As far as the jamming ability is concerned..
> If its a noise jammer.. then it has to be able to overpower the other emitter.. however.. that means it has to deal with some really powerful radars...
> with AESA in play.. jamming will significantly lose its effectiveness..
> and we havent been sold the DRFM on the Jammers meant for the F-16's..
> and there is a low likelihood that anything akin to DRFM will come on the thunder pre 2015.


 
Sir,

You may disagree as much as you want to---that is your prerogative---we are talking about single engine small aircraft JF17 and compared it to similiar mission on F 16---similiar aircraft----incidently the word--RAAD type specialty mission----got stuck in there---there will be no drop tanks left on the plane---because they will be jettisoned way back before getting to the target---so---getting back home----maybe---maybe not.


The current JF 17 will not have sd10's on the wing tips---aircraft too small---centrifugal forces in high attack angles or extreme maneavouring may tear up the missile and damage the wing----. People if you want a truck----then design one---don't ask a coupe to do that job.


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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> You may disagree as much as you want to---that is your prerogative---we are talking about single engine small aircraft JF17 and compared it to similiar mission on F 16---similiar aircraft----incidently the word--RAAD type specialty mission----got stuck in there---there will be no drop tanks left on the plane---because they will be jettisoned way back before getting to the target---so---getting back home----maybe---maybe not.
> 
> 
> The current JF 17 will not have sd10's on the wing tips---aircraft too small---centrifugal forces in high attack angles or extreme maneavouring may tear up the missile and damage the wing----. People if you want a truck----then design one---don't ask a coupe to do that job.


 
Perhaps from an automotive engineers perspective you may be right..
But.. lets take the higher standards of Aircraft manufacturing.. and let those that do it.. worry their heads with it.
Even the F-16 has settings for its FLCS for how much stress it takes ... 
depending on the category of load.

So you are unlikely to see an F-16 pulling more than 7G's carrying a load..
If it has to.. there is a nice little selective jettison button whereby you get rid of the heavier loads and retain those pertinent for air combat.
This has not created issues for the F-16 going into combat with heavy loads.. 
Nor has it caused problems for the A-4 skyhawk.. or the F-86.. 
I find your concern unfounded.
In any case.. if you wish mon ami.. lets continue this discussion on the pertinent thread.


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## MastanKhan

Santro,

You totally missed the important tangent and focused on the less important------.


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## ANG

Hi, given what happened in Abbotabad and the failure of the PAF to detect helicopters, I would say this is a little to late.

Pakistan Military Review: Pakistan Air Force to get Erieye and ZDK-03 AEW&C this Year

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## Jango

AWACS are not operated during peacetime!!


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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> AWACS are not operated during peacetime!!


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> AWACS are not operated during peacetime!!



awacs was at car shop for washing dear and driver was sleeping on a charpai in front of car wash .

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## Jango

danger-zone said:


>


 
why laugh??....do you honestly think that AWACS are operated 24/7.....365 days a year....if so...they would get old quite fast!!.....


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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> why laugh??....do you honestly think that AWACS are operated 24/7.....365 days a year....if so...they would get old quite fast!!.....


 
nothing personal pal, but AWACS are not made for war only and no military hardware, I guess, can be operated 24/7 - 365 because every one needs a break. AWACS can be used any time and in the light of ACM Sb Statement "_Currently, Pakistan is a state of war_", AWAC Should be utilized at maximum level.


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## Last Hope

Not really. They are operational sometimes. According to my calculations, am AWAC was near Lahore at the mid of last month.


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## Jango

i am not saying that they are not operational during peacetime...rather they are not operational all the times....they might be flying one or three days a week ....but not the whole week.


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## Jango

danger-zone said:


> nothing personal pal, but AWACS are not made for war only and no military hardware, I guess, can be operated 24/7 - 365 because every one needs a break. AWACS can be used any time and in the light of ACM Sb Statement "_Currently, Pakistan is a state of war_", AWAC Should be utilized at maximum level.


 
if we need AWACS to monitor the airspace during times like these ......then god save us during war...AWACS are used to give extended range to monitoring radius....and most of the area of pakistan is under 24/7 surveillance....if chaghi is not under surveillance...i dont expect to have a threat from iran anytime during the next year.....so it does not justify the cost of flying an AWACS their all the time.....you dont fly your F16 or mirages all the time do you??...
Do you have any military or aviation insight or relation to that field?


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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> *i am not saying that they are not operational during peacetime.*..rather they are not operational all the times....they might be flying one or three days a week ....but not the whole week.


 


nuclearpak said:


> *AWACS are not operated during peacetime!!*


 


> if we need AWACS to monitor the airspace during times like these ......then god save us during war...AWACS are used to give extended range to monitoring radius....and most of the area of pakistan is under 24/7 surveillance....if chaghi is not under surveillance...i dont expect to have a threat from iran anytime during the next year.....so it does not justify the cost of flying an AWACS their all the time.....*you dont fly your F16 or mirages all the time do you*??...
> Do you have any military or aviation insight or relation to that field?



lets cut it out here Man, i don't know what are you talking about. my apologies but i cant help in this way


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## MJaa

ANG said:


> Hi, given what happened in Abbotabad and the failure of the PAF to detect helicopters, I would say this is a little to late.
> 
> Pakistan Military Review: Pakistan Air Force to get Erieye and ZDK-03 AEW&C this Year


 
So is PAF getting all four ZDK03 AEW&C This year?

If true This would mean PAF would have 8 AEW&C systems by end of 2011.

I just wounder how long it will take to operationalize them


----------



## umair86pk

one of my school time friend who is in PAF as GDP who was aggressively defending the position of our armed forces following May 2 fiasco that they are best of the best the can wreck havoc on the enemy and all this kind of crap and in the end says Erieye is not operational. Can anyone confirm it that how in the hell a system inducted 2 years ago still hasn't received IOC?


----------



## fatman17

the erieye's were delivered mid to late last year - the crews are under training - it is a sophisticated platform. the whole air/land communication loop is still being deployed. it will take some time.


----------



## Mani2020

MJaa said:


> So is PAF getting all four ZDK03 AEW&C This year?
> 
> If true This would mean PAF would have 8 AEW&C systems by end of 2011.
> 
> *I just wounder how long it will take to operationalize them*



but this is not my worry ,my worry is how much it will take for them to detect a chopper ?

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## ice_man

fatman17 said:


> the erieye's were delivered mid to late last year - the crews are under training - it is a sophisticated platform. the whole air/land communication loop is still being deployed. it will take some time.


 
EVEN after all the training is complete we will use it SPARINGLY because we don't have the liberty to easily replace worn out items. in peacetime we will have a minimum usage of the platform. hence the ZDK03 which we believe can be provided parts on short notice & can be serviced easily!


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## Najam Khan

Mani2020 said:


> but this is not my worry ,my worry is how much it will take for them to detect a chopper ?


 
It depends on terrain, altitude and material from which helicopter is made. A heli with more blades in tail rotor, will create smaller RCS hence more difficult to detect. Bad weather can also become a factor.


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## Mani2020

NAjAM Khan said:


> It depends on terrain, altitude and material from which helicopter is made. A heli with more blades in tail rotor, will create smaller RCS hence more difficult to detect. Bad weather can also become a factor.


 
lol i know all these stuff it was just a mockery thrown on PAF in context of that event


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## Jango

you dont go around in your rolls royce all day to pick children from school now when you have a honda civic???...do you???


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## Najam Khan

nuclearpak said:


> you dont go around in your rolls royce all day to pick children from school now when you have a honda civic???...do you???


 
Sorry i don't get you point.


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## Jango

i meant that if you have a rolls royce which costs a fortune and a civic which is not so expensive....you would definitely go and pick up your children from school and go shopping in you civic rather than your rolls royce.......you would go in your rolls royce if you are trying to impress some body and wanting to boast.

similarly what is the need for a country like pakistan to deploy its AWACS 24/7 when it already has maximum coverage of the hot zones???..

now if you dont know what a rolls royce is...i feel sorry for you!


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## MastanKhan

nuclearpak said:


> i meant that if you have a rolls royce which costs a fortune and a civic which is not so expensive....you would definitely go and pick up your children from school and go shopping in you civic rather than your rolls royce.......you would go in your rolls royce if you are trying to impress some body and wanting to boast.
> 
> similarly what is the need for a country like pakistan to deploy its AWACS 24/7 when it already has maximum coverage of the hot zones???..
> 
> now if you dont know what a rolls royce is...i feel sorry for you!


 
Sir,

You have to own the rolls royce to understand the frame of mind of the owner----no---you will not send the civic to pickup the kids---you will be sending the Rolls Royce to pick them up----.

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> You have to own the rolls royce to understand the frame of mind of the owner----no---you will not send the civic to pickup the kids---you will be sending the Rolls Royce to pick them up----.



Unless off course sir.. you could not afford the rolls royce on your own.. and instead had to have it leased to you through a bank.
Not only can you not afford the gas it guzzles.. you cant afford the 5000km oil filter change... which is why you drive it sparingly.

Which is why you keep the rolls royce in the garage.. with the cloth covers on.. and while you have it cleaned everyday along with the civic..
its the civic that goes to pick the kids..
Metaphorically offcourse.


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## MastanKhan

Santro said:


> Unless off course sir.. you could not afford the rolls royce on your own.. and instead had to have it leased to you through a bank.
> Not only can you not afford the gas it guzzles.. you cant afford the 5000km oil filter change... which is why you drive it sparingly.
> 
> Which is why you keep the rolls royce in the garage.. with the cloth covers on.. and while you have it cleaned everyday along with the civic..
> its the civic that goes to pick the kids..
> Metaphorically offcourse.



Santro,

I didn't understand that part---- people with money don't invest in depreciating items----they rather finance them or lease them---rolls royces ---like all cars are depreciating items in value----plus business leases have tax write off as well---so paying cash doesn't help when you are looking for tax breaks.

Don't get me wrong---quite a few do buy their cars---. Majority of all highline luxury cars here in the U S are leased---not financed and neither paid cash for.

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## TOPGUN

Do we have any special info about the Falcon DA-20's as in the Blinders SQ?


----------



## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Santro,
> 
> I didn't understand that part---- people with money don't invest in depreciating items----they rather finance them or lease them---rolls royces ---like all cars are depreciating items in value----plus business leases have tax write off as well---so paying cash doesn't help when you are looking for tax breaks.
> 
> Don't get me wrong---quite a few do buy their cars---. Majority of all highline luxury cars here in the U S are leased---not financed and neither paid cash for.


 
You forget this is Pakistan.. i know a fellow who leased a porche in lahore.. 
In any case.. the point is not lease.. its that we had to borrow heavily to purchase the SAAB's.. money that cannot be turned into grants.. or payments that cant be delayed..
To us they are high value assets.. and not ones we would like to wear out earlier.. 
You probably have a better term for high-maintenance vehicles.. 
the Erieye is just something that whilst being the top of its line.. is also very expensive to maintain and the spare parts too come from a unreliable source.

One the flipside.. the Chinese AWACS is going to be relatively cheaper to keep in the air.. but do we want to expose the Chinese emitters to the Americans this early.. so they have ample time to analyze the waveforms... and generate the countermeasures??
We regularly have EC-135 ELINT jets snoop our airspace for Chinese radars..
lets not hand it to them..

off topic.. speaking of cars.. how does the chevy sonic look to you?


----------



## Arsalan

the the ZDK-03, what there status?

when are we going to get them in PAF colors.

(I am sorry, i have been back after a long break and need someone to update my knowledge)

Arsalan Aslam


----------



## fatman17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the the ZDK-03, what there status?
> 
> when are we going to get them in PAF colors.
> 
> (I am sorry, i have been back after a long break and need someone to update my knowledge)
> 
> Arsalan Aslam



the 1st a/c is undergoing T&E in china. it was officially handed over to PAF a few months ago. i reckon the other 3 to be delivered in the next 24 months.


----------



## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> the 1st a/c is undergoing T&E in china. it was officially handed over to PAF a few months ago. i reckon the other 3 to be delivered in the next 24 months.


 
thanks sir, you are really getting me startd on each thread of this forum. updating after a long break!

thanks a lot!

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## houshanghai

zdk03 awacs in yangliang airport(china aircraft testing center)

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## DANGER-ZONE

tell me the radar doom have been changed to triangular one ! 
PLZ


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## DANGER-ZONE

*ZDK-03 an Artist's impression.*

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## dilpakistani

danger-zone said:


> *ZDK-03 an Artist's impression.*


 

What happened to the project. It was suppose to delivered in JUNE ?


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## SEAL

*ZDK-03 Interior* 


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LiYKXc5m8...GovwqOoAY/s1600/ZDK-03+AEW+%26+C+Interior.jpg

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## air marshal

fox said:


> *ZDK-03 Interior*
> 
> 
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LiYKXc5m8...GovwqOoAY/s1600/ZDK-03+AEW+%26+C+Interior.jpg


 
Source link: TRISHUL: PAF Gearing Up For Its Four ZDK-03 AEW & CS

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## fatman17

dilpakistani said:


> What happened to the project. It was suppose to delivered in JUNE ?



sometines trg of crews takes longer than expected - with chinese weapons systems, translating the manuals and SoP's is a very cumbersome task.


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## ice_man

has the SAAB EREIYE finnaly operational in PAF or is it still going induction & training in PAF? because i think i read somewhere the indian PHALCON is still not fully operational and inducted into a squadron it is in the final stages before being offically inducted.


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## VelocuR

ice_man said:


> has the SAAB EREIYE finnaly operational in PAF or is it still going induction & training in PAF? because i think i read somewhere the indian PHALCON is still not fully operational and inducted into a squadron it is in the final stages before being offically inducted.


 
Yes, 2 inducted to PAF bases. It is operational and also exercise. No worry about India.


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## Areesh

ice_man said:


> has the SAAB EREIYE finnaly operational in PAF or is it still going induction & training in PAF? because i think i read somewhere the indian PHALCON is still not fully operational and inducted into a squadron it is in the final stages before being offically inducted.


 
2 already inducted. The other two were supposed to be inducted his year. We may see them getting inducted later in this year. Delay may be because of as Fatman said crew training or other technical issues.


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## adnan1479

2nd ZDK-03 Airborne Warning And Control Systems (AWACS) is almost ready 
China Defense Blog: 2nd ZDK-03 Airborne Warning And Control Systems (AWACS) is almost ready

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## DANGER-ZONE



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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


>


 
Interesting one AWAC aircraft is with rotodome while the other one have erieye like radar ,both have yellow color mean both are going through testing , I think both radars are being tested for PAF and the better will be selected at the end


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## dilpakistani

Mani2020 said:


> Interesting one AWAC aircraft is with rotodome while the other one have erieye like radar ,both have yellow color mean both are going through testing , I think both radars are being tested for PAF and the better will be selected at the end


 

Its the picture of first Karakoram Eagle..... all K-Eagles will have rotodomes


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## Xracer

[/URL] 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/IMG]


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## Xracer

[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## TaimiKhan

Mani2020 said:


> Interesting one AWAC aircraft is with rotodome while the other one have erieye like radar ,both have yellow color mean both are going through testing , I think both radars are being tested for PAF and the better will be selected at the end


 
No, the other one is for the Chinese AF, not for PAF. 

PAF long ago selected the rotodome option and is going to stick with it for now since its coverage is 360 degree, while the linear shaped antenna does not provides 360 degree coverage. 

On the side note, i am not sure from where does the rotodome version is the 2nd plane, because if the picture is from yanling airbase, then it means this prototype is in its 2nd stage of testing. 

First stage of testing is at the manufacturers place or whatever is near to it, once the aircraft reaches yanling it means the next stage would be its operational deployment with the operator of the plane for final round of tests.

1st testing: at the manufacturers place

2nd round of testing: at yanglian testing centre

3rd round of testing with the operator either CAF or PAF

and then the final induction.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-277.html#post1939821


And if we go with the time line since when the initial ZDK-03 was first rolled out of the manufacturer's place and handed over to PAF, i think this is yet the first 1st prototype and after this testing it will be handed over to PAF, while the 2nd plane might yet be in testing with the manufacturer. 

Is there a clear picture of where the ZDK-03 says that its the second plane of the series, as if it is the 2nd, then the first one should have been with the PAF by now.

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## air marshal

*In 2006, Chinese Airborne Warning and Control System is pictured at Chaklala Air Base. It has been reported that China was keen to sell its AWACS after Pakistan clinched a billion dollar deal with Swedish firm SAAB for radars to counter India's decision to buy Phalcon Airborne Radar System from Israel.*

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## dilpakistani

Xracer said:


> [/URL]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]


 
I seriously hope thats not the paint job of our awacs... it gives funy and outdated look .....


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## dilpakistani

and i'm desperately waiting for the first look of Karakoram Eagle.....


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## Donatello

Why call it eagle? They should name it Hawk.

Hawk, the smartest of the birds.


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## TaimiKhan

penumbra said:


> Why call it eagle? They should name it Hawk.
> 
> Hawk, the smartest of the birds.


 
Its called Karakoram Eagle, as Karakoram range has boundaries of Pakistan and China and Karakoram range houses a few breeds of eagles. Karakoram connects Pakistan and China, so the name of ZDK-03 represents the friendship between both the countries.

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## Donatello

TaimiKhan said:


> Its called Karakoram Eagle, as Karakoram range has boundaries of Pakistan and China and Karakoram range houses a few breeds of eagles. Karakoram connects Pakistan and China, so the name of ZDK-03 represents the friendship between both the countries.


 
I know the reason. What i meant was that they should break the norm.....like Shaheen, Eagle....etc.

They can name it after a discrete bird and it shouldn't matter.


Just my 20 cents.


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## fatman17

dilpakistani said:


> I seriously hope thats not the paint job of our awacs... it gives funy and outdated look .....



probably will be the grey scheme like the erieye!


----------



## DANGER-ZONE



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## soul hacker

ZDK-03 AWACS aircraft serial# T0518 for PAF to test radar at the centre of aircraft testing in Yanliang

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## soul hacker

Shaanxi ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control Systems) model with Pakistan-China flag

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## Manticore

In this photo taken Yanliang where the CFTE (China Flight Test Establishment), 

* Un ZDK-03 avec son radôme rond, dédié à l'exportation pour les Pakistanais * A ZDK-03 radome with his round, dedicated to export to the Pakistanis
* KJ-200
* The unit numbered 741 should be a Y or Y-9-8 Platform III (KJ-200 uses this platform here)
* The unit is numbered 079 flying test bed radars 

The 079 is actually a Y8C Shaanxi, serving as a flying testbed for radar.

To the right of ZDK-03 was clearly a different Y-8. To the left of KJ-200, it looks like quite a Y-7, perhaps the Y7-100 coded 072, which is used to test avionics.

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## fatman17

*ZDK-03 - Updated*

ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (serial # T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a tranditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as two small vertial tail stablizers. The Y-8 AWACS protoype was promoted to Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now dubbed ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m deal. The first ZDK-03 rolled out in November 2010 at SAC, with the delivery to be scheduled by the end of 2010. A recent picture (July 2011) suggested that the second ZDK-03 has been built. ZDK-03 is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it appears to lack the secure datalink to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Recent images indicated that the T0518 testbed has been further modified to carry a fixed rotodom with three AESA antennas installed inside, which could be a downgraded version of the KJ-2000 AWACS system to be installed onboard the Y-7 carrierborne AWACS. 
- Last Updated 7/16/11

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## Xracer

Diffrence b/w AWACs/AEW&Cs Aircrafts Short description Please plzzzzzzzzzzz


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## Mani2020

Xracer said:


> Diffrence b/w AWACs/AEW&Cs Aircrafts Short description Please plzzzzzzzzzzz


 
Both are same , its just how the people call them . AEW&Cs is a latest term while AWACs was an older term use for the same purpose.
AEW&C is also known by the older terms "airborne early warning" (AEW) and "airborne warning and control system" (AWACS)

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## DANGER-ZONE

AWACS was the name of E-3 or people use to call it a AWACS but every airborne early warning aircraft is AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control) .
while AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) .. there is no such a difference .

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## Xracer

Thanks............


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## [--Leo--]

Saab 2000 AEW&C: Airborne Early Warning & Control variant fitted with Erieye radar and associated mission systems that PAF have now.

This System how much updated is this comparble with chines AEW isreli AEW and US AEW or better

and please give me history of Saab 2000 AEW&C when it was lunched?

and give names of comparble AEW&C system 

looking for feature comparing ....anyone ?


----------



## Jango

[--Leo--];1997918 said:


> Saab 2000 AEW&C: Airborne Early Warning & Control variant fitted with Erieye radar and associated mission systems that PAF have now.
> 
> This System how much updated is this comparble with chines AEW isreli AEW and US AEW or better
> 
> and please give me history of Saab 2000 AEW&C when it was lunched?
> 
> and give names of comparble AEW&C system
> 
> looking for feature comparing ....anyone ?


 
There is a phenomena called google, check it out sometimes.


----------



## Alquadri

Xracer said:


> [/URL]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]


 
These are not the ZDK 03 meant for the PAF. As has already been mentioned that ZDK 03 for PAF are based on category III Y 8s featuring 6 blade propeller WJ 6C turboprop engines. The aircrafts in the pics are 4 blade propellers probably of category II aircrafts.


----------



## Alquadri

TOPGUN said:


> Do we have any special info about the Falcon DA-20's as in the Blinders SQ?


 
thats one question that has eluded me all along...falcon da-20


----------



## [--Leo--]

nuclearpak said:


> There is a phenomena called google, check it out sometimes.




well google leads me here so can u give me answer


----------



## Cool_Soldier

Hi, can any tell please when ZDK03 is arriving and inducting in PAF.I believe it was said by PAF official that first Chinese AWACS will arrive in first quarter of 2011.But still no news?


----------



## Xracer

Pakistan will receive the first of four Shaanxi ZDK-03 Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) aircraft by the end of January 2011.

The other three aircraft are likely to arrive later in the year, says the Pakistan air force.

"The ZDK-03s have been developed to our specifications," says the air force. "It won't be an E-3C Sentry, but it will have the latest electronics and everything an AWACS aircraft needs."

The Chinese-built aircraft will have an active electronically scanned array radar, and its open architecture electronics will allow for future developments and upgrades.

Pakistan has also received its third of four Erieye radar-equipped Saab 2000s being acquired from Sweden, with the final aircraft likely to arrive in the coming months. The four-engined Chinese aircraft has a greater range than the Saab, say sources.

The ZDK-03 deal underlines the strong military ties between Pakistan and China. The countries have also jointly developed the Chengdu JF-17 Thunder fighter, of which Pakistan is likely to buy 200.

Purchasing AEW&C aircraft from two separate sources is indicative of Pakistan's strategy of not becoming too reliant on any one ally. The USA imposed military sanctions against Islamabad from 1990 until 2005 in response to its testing nuclear weapons.

The air force's current fleet includes Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage III/5s and Chengdu F-7s and JF-17s.

In terms of military transports, Pakistan flies Lockheed C-130s, but also operates Ilyushin Il-76/78 tankers.


----------



## fatman17

Cool_Soldier said:


> Hi, can any tell please when ZDK03 is arriving and inducting in PAF.I believe it was said by PAF official that first Chinese AWACS will arrive in first quarter of 2011.But still no news?



my gut feeling is that the 'training' of crews is taking longer than expected or there may be some 'technical' issues which are being sorted out.


----------



## Jango

Saw a trainer SAAB-2000 at ISB airport, i have to admit, did not look that big as compared to the photos, maybe the RADAR at top makes a difference.


----------



## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> Saw a trainer SAAB-2000 at ISB airport, i have to admit, did not look that big as compared to the photos, maybe the RADAR at top makes a difference.


 
yes sir its look slim in real heeheheh


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## Alquadri

Any idea about the instrument detection range of ZDK 03 and any other ELINT / SIGINT equipment it carries?


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## air marshal

*Saab 2000 (J019)*






*PAF Saab 2000 (serial# J019, construction number 019), photographed at Chaklala Air Base. Saab 2000 (serial# J019) was delivered to PAF in 2008 and is used for routine transport tasks and crew training for Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C crew training. [Picture courtesy: Ghafoor Elahi]*





*PAF Saab 2000 (serial# J019), photographed at Lahore. Saab 2000, with a cruise speed of over 665km/h (360kt), is one of the fastest turboprop airliners developed. It is now based at Chaklala, used for routine transport tasks and crew training for Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C crew training. [Picture courtesy: APP]*

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## muse

fatman17 said:


> my gut feeling is that the 'training' of crews is taking longer than expected or there may be some 'technical' issues which are being sorted out.


 

If indeed it's is a issue of "technical" proficiency, that's rather serious. We have long argued for more schools, advanced instruction and the requirement of earning advanced degrees to be considered for promotion to Major or equivalent and beyond.


----------



## ice_man

Shabz Nist said:


> All you need is "Allah's guidance". What is science before the all knowing? Why must a small glitch such as the lack of technical knowledge/degree stop a holy warrior of Allah from participating in tasks that demand exactly that?.........
> 
> Incase you missed it, this is sarcasm.


 
ladies & gentlemen observe this specimen directly out of the indian website BR!!! have a nice short stay here but please do give me your nickname on that website so i can follow you once you go from here

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## fatman17

muse said:


> If indeed it's is a issue of "technical" proficiency, that's rather serious. We have long argued for more schools, advanced instruction and the requirement of earning advanced degrees to be considered for promotion to Major or equivalent and beyond.



maybe it is or it isnt, but there is a history and that is why i mentioned it. in the 80's when PN acquired its 3 Atlantic EW/Elint a/c, the sensors were difficult to master by our crews and the french navy deputised their personnel for a longer period before the PN operators were comfortable with the operations. things are much better now.


----------



## Tehmasib

can any tells me that wen china hand over awacs to Pakistan???


----------



## Imran Khan

1 already handed over but not inducted


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## air marshal

_*Aviation Art by Waqar Ahmad Rana - Pakistan Air Force (PAF) ZDK-03 AWACS.*_

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## razgriz19

NOW THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT! <3


----------



## aimarraul



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## fatman17

*ZDK-03 - update* 

ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (serial # T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a traditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as two small vertical tail stabilizers. The Y-8 AWACS protoype was promoted to Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now dubbed ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m deal. The first ZDK-03 rolled out in November 2010 at SAC. A recent picture (July 2011) suggested that the second ZDK-03 has been built. ZDK-03 is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it appears to lack the secure datalink to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. The first ZDK-03 is expected to be delivered within 2011. 

- Last Updated 9/13/11

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## Secur

I think we can get it somewhere in Nov-Dec 2011 ... But why dont they hand out the first if even a second has been built ?


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## air marshal

*ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle AWACS in PAF color scheme. The first ZDK-03 is expected to be delivered within 2011.*

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## evldth

Oh when we are getting them?


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## Doctor09

air marshal said:


> *ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle AWACS in PAF color scheme. The first ZDK-03 is expected to be delivered within 2011.*


i love this big baby


----------



## houshanghai

link;

¶¦Ê¢ÂÛÌ³ ¾üÊÂÌìµØ ³ö¿Ú°Í»ùË¹Ì¹µÄÔ¤¾¯»ú

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## Zarvan

houshanghai said:


> link;
> 
> ¶¦Ê¢ÂÛÌ³ ¾üÊÂÌìµØ ³ö¿Ú°Í»ùË¹Ì¹µÄÔ¤¾¯»ú


When this will reach Pakistan and when other 3 will be completed and delivered to Pakistan


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## PakShaheen79

any technical specification please?


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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> any technical specification please?



dear, the thread contains all required information. you need to check that out 

however, for a quick review:


> ZDK-03 Y8F-400 AEW
> 
> The ZDK-03 system is an advanced Airborne Warning and Control System [AWACS] with sophisticated integrated sensors and communications suite. The type is a new variant of the Shaanxi Y8 AEW&C aircraft designed specifically for Pakistan. Islamabad had ordered four ZDK-03s on order, with deliveries starting in late 2010. In parallel with the KJ-200 (Y8 'Balance Beam'), the Chinese aircraft industry developed and built a further AWACS version of the Cub referred to in some sources as the Y-8 AEW (Airborne Early Warning).
> 
> The existence of the conventional AWACS derivative became known in 2005. The actual prototype wearing a civilian-style blue/white color scheme and the test serial 'T0518 Red' is based on the radar-nosed Y8F-400 ('Category II Platform'). Contrary to some sources, the first prototype base aircraft was not the Y8F-600 ('Category III Platform'), though this platform with six-blade engines was used for later aircraft. The aircraft has a conventional 'saucer' rotodome mounted aft of the wings on twin inward-canted pylons; the greater part of the rotodome is dielectric. The Chinese aircraft is powered by four turboprop engines and has a greater range than offered by the Saab Microwave Systems Erieye. The aircraft nose was shorter and improved from usual glass-fared nose, like the Y-8F400 or Y-8-X, however the engine are not changed. A canoe shaped dome like *E-8's array-phased antenna is located between the front and rear landing gears*. The platform is characterized by the triple tail configuration (one large and two small), which was added for flight stability after the installation of new radar antenna.





> This arrangement is similar to the one being used by the E-2C/D Hawkeye Airborne Early Warning Aircraft used by the USN.
> 
> This arrangement will allow ZDK-03 AEW&C Karakoram Eagle to provide 360º radar coverage.





> ZDK-03 AEW&C Karakoram Eagle has single active electronically steered array radar from the Chinese KJ-2000 which is mounted on a turboprop-powered Y-8F600 in a rotating rotodome.



but still, you need to go through entire thread to get all that is required

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## Xracer

PakShaheen79 said:


> any technical specification please?


A variant designed specifically for export to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Consists of a Chinese AESA radar mounted on the Y-8F600 platform. The radar is reported to have a greater range than that of the PAF's Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C radar.

General characteristics

Crew: 5, or 3, or 2 (Y-8F600)
Capacity: &#8776;90 equipped troops
Payload: 20,000 kg (44,000 lb) cargo
Length: 34.02m (111ft, 8in)
Wingspan: 38.0m (124ft 8in)
Height: 11.6m (36ft 8in)
Wing area: 121.9m² (1311.7ft²)
Empty weight: 35,490kg (77,237lb)
Loaded weight: kg (lb)
Useful load: 20,000kg (44,090lb)
Max takeoff weight: 61,000kg (134,480lb)
Powerplant: 4 × Zhuzhou WoJiang-6 (WJ-6) turboprops, 3,170kW (4,250hp) each

Performance

Never exceed speed: km/h (knots, mph)
Maximum speed: 660km/h (357 knots, mph)
Cruise speed: 550km/h (knots, mph)
Stall speed: km/h (knots, mph)
Range: 5,615km (3030nm, mi)
Service ceiling: 10,400m (ft)
Rate of climb: 10m/s (ft/min)
Wing loading: kg/m² (lb/ft²)
Power/mass: W/kg (hp/lb)

Armament

Twin 23mm cannon tail turret (early models only)

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## PakShaheen79

thnanks arslan and Xracer  really appreciate your efforts.


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## HavocHeaven

I heard that a very clear big picture had been posted on CDF. But it was quickly replaced with a resized version because of too much detailed information in the picture. The big bird is now at China Flight Test Establishment in Yanliang, Shanxi Province. 

Hey Thunders, you got company!

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## SQ8

Those secondary vertical tails remind me of the Lockheed electra.. old is gold in the multi-tail approach.


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## TaimiKhan

Santro said:


> Those secondary vertical tails remind me of the Lockheed electra.. old is gold in the multi-tail approach.



These were installed after the crash of one of the KJ-200 prototype which took 40 precious lives and was a huge set back for the Chinese AEW&C program back in 2005-06 i believe. The huge radar dome on the spine makes the single rudder less effective, thus the secondary rudders installed so that the aircraft has more steering or better control during flying.

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## houshanghai

HavocHeaven said:


> I heard that a very clear big picture had been posted on CDF. But it was quickly replaced with a resized version because of too much detailed information in the picture. The big bird is now at China Flight Test Establishment in Yanliang, Shanxi Province.
> 
> Hey Thunders, you got company!


you know that this muzzy pic of zdk03 come from Mr.G in yangliang,he have the clear pic.but to maintain secrecy .....

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## wangrong



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## MJaa

Here is the large pic 

*PICTURE OF FLYING ZDK-03 AEW&C KARAKORAM EAGLE AIRCRAFT
*







This is the first image of flying Sino-Pak ZDK-03 Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) Karakoram Eagle before delivery to Pakistan Air Force.ZDK-03 AEW&C Karakoram Eagle provides 360º radar coverage with Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar.

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## fatman17

MJaa said:


> Here is the large pic
> 
> *PICTURE OF FLYING ZDK-03 AEW&C KARAKORAM EAGLE AIRCRAFT
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first image of flying Sino-Pak ZDK-03 Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) Karakoram Eagle before delivery to Pakistan Air Force.ZDK-03 AEW&C Karakoram Eagle provides 360º radar coverage with Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar.



the colour scheme indicates that it is still under testing.!


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## MJaa

fatman17 said:


> the colour scheme indicates that it is still under testing.!



It could very well be the second or third ZDK-03 as indicated by the number


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## TaimiKhan

MJaa said:


> Here is the large pic
> 
> *PICTURE OF FLYING ZDK-03 AEW&C KARAKORAM EAGLE AIRCRAFT
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first image of flying Sino-Pak ZDK-03 Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) Karakoram Eagle before delivery to Pakistan Air Force.ZDK-03 AEW&C Karakoram Eagle provides 360º radar coverage with Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar.


 
It seems this is the 3rd ZDK-03. 

As i was told of two already in advanced stages.

Number is 133, most probably 131 & 132 are already in more advanced stages with the PAF colored one already seen. 

Chinese make things very fast, its very amazing.

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## Bratva

The past discussions i read here which gives the impression it will be an AESA. But China didn't miniaturize the large AESA of it's KJ-2000 to fit in this Pakistani AWAC or else , there must be a news on this. So my bet is, it would be PESA or Mechanically steered.


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## lmjiao




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## nomi007

ZDK-03 Y8F-400 AEW is not bad AWACS suitable for fc-20 , j-10b and jf-17 thunders
Saab 2000 is suitable for f-16s
8 AWACS are i think good for Pakistan
pak navy also have p-3 Orion so we are save better than nothing


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## Bratva

A question arises in my mind. If Indian Awacs of Israeli origin can work with Russian Airplanes then why Pakistani Saab AWAC of swedish origin can not work with chinese plane?


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## Dazzler

mafiya said:


> The past discussions i read here which gives the impression it will be an AESA. But China didn't miniaturize the large AESA of it's KJ-2000 to fit in this Pakistani AWAC or else , there must be a news on this. So my bet is, it would be PESA or Mechanically steered.



I am afraid your bet is wrong, it is confirmed AESA but made by a different supplier than that of KJ-2000 radar. Most likely by no. 3x institute.

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## mughaljee

nabil_05 Bahi, 
*AESA & PESA* Difference between them ?
and which one is better/latest technology and upper hand


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## Secur

how many of them are currently in service ? There is a lot of confusion on this issue ... Which one is operational and which one is undergoing testing ?


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## Dil Pakistan

+  =  and


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## Bratva

Secur said:


> how many of them are currently in service ? There is a lot of confusion on this issue ... Which one is operational and which one is undergoing testing ?



None of them are in service. As pictures and senior tid bits suggest. One is going to be inducted in Jan/Feb 2012 since it has completed its technical evaluation. 2nd one is in final stage of testing and evaluation and third one just started it's trials


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## VelocuR

We dislike the idea of six-blades fours fans in the wing. I would suggest to use engines power turbos just like many AWACs. 

I guess, saving cost effective.


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## fatman17

^^^all the answers to the questions above have already been posted in this thread - kindly do some research!

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## TaimiKhan

nomi007 said:


> ZDK-03 Y8F-400 AEW is not bad AWACS suitable for fc-20 , j-10b and jf-17 thunders
> Saab 2000 is suitable for f-16s
> 8 AWACS are i think good for Pakistan
> pak navy also have p-3 Orion so we are save better than nothing


 


mafiya said:


> A question arises in my mind. If Indian Awacs of Israeli origin can work with Russian Airplanes then why Pakistani Saab AWAC of swedish origin can not work with chinese plane?


 
Its Y-8F 600 version. Hopefully with western engines. 

And as for communication system, JF-17s/FC-20s/Mirages/F-7PGs are equipped, being equipped and would be equipped with western communication system, european to be exact. And as per what i know, the ZDK-03 would also be having a western communication equipment, including data transfer equipment. Thus, all of these planes can communicate between each other, but my be due to US concerns & Swedish concerns, Erieye & F-16s are not directly linked with these assets, but then again, they may well connect them with each other, since whatever we are procuring from China, comes with western MIL-STD equipment and has western communication system, so if we can have the codes & system to link F-16s with Erieyes since they have western MIL-STD communication system, then we can link them with the Chinese planes which are coming with western MIL-STD & western communication system. I don't see a reason why can't we link them. 

In the end, once again telling, all these assets would be connected with a ground control station, which will work as the command and control station for the whole battle theater, and they will communicate and give orders between the assets.



mughaljee said:


> nabil_05 Bahi,
> *AESA & PESA* Difference between them ?
> and which one is better/latest technology and upper hand




AESA is latest and much better.

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## SBD-3

RaptorRX707 said:


> We dislike the idea of six-blades fours fans in the wing. I would suggest to use engines power turbos just like many AWACs.
> 
> I guess, saving cost effective.


Economy,endurance,maintainance and speed. Truboprops excel in first three disciplines while Jet engines score in last one. Fuel economy ensures long endurance and erradicate the need for a larger platform with more fuel efficiency. Isn't it striking to know that Tubro propeller erieye has equvilent endurance to anyother modern Beoing 777 based platform?...shouldn't be surprising i guess


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## Bratva

TaimiKhan said:


> Its Y-8F 600 version. Hopefully with western engines.
> 
> And as for communication system, JF-17s/FC-20s/Mirages/F-7PGs are equipped, being equipped and would be equipped with western communication system, european to be exact. And as per what i know, the ZDK-03 would also be having a western communication equipment, including data transfer equipment. Thus, all of these planes can communicate between each other, but my be due to US concerns & Swedish concerns, Erieye & F-16s are not directly linked with these assets, but then again, they may well connect them with each other, since whatever we are procuring from China, comes with western MIL-STD equipment and has western communication system, so if we can have the codes & system to link F-16s with Erieyes since they have western MIL-STD communication system, then we can link them with the Chinese planes which are coming with western MIL-STD & western communication system. I don't see a reason why can't we link them.
> 
> In the end, once again telling, all these assets would be connected with a ground control station, which will work as the command and control station for the whole battle theater, and they will communicate and give orders between the assets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AESA is latest and much better.



Sire I totally agree with your point, but ground reality and your constructive points don't add up.. The ground reality I talk about is, it's been two years since JF-17 is in service and One year has passed since we inducted the SAAB Erieye. But we haven't heard they are data linked, but a chinese Awacs for Pakistan which is still testing in china, we send a JF-17 pt04 there to test it's data linking with JF-17 as per Fatman.

I understand the American concerns, but why Swedish? what's there problem according to your understanding?

Once again i have to make a little off topic point, If SAAB were in the hands of Indians, they would have data linked it with MIGS and SU-30. Why Western countries don't have same concerns with Russian machines as they have for Chinese machines? At least they are in Pakistani Hand, then why still hiccups?


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> Sire I totally agree with your point, but ground reality and your constructive points don't add up.. The ground reality I talk about is, it's been two years since JF-17 is in service and One year has passed since we inducted the SAAB Erieye. But we haven't heard they are data linked, but a chinese Awacs for Pakistan which is still testing in china, we send a JF-17 pt04 there to test it's data linking with JF-17 as per Fatman.
> 
> I understand the American concerns, but why Swedish? what's there problem according to your understanding?
> 
> Once again i have to make a little off topic point, If SAAB were in the hands of Indians, they would have data linked it with MIGS and SU-30. Why Western countries don't have same concerns with Russian machines as they have for Chinese machines? At least they are in Pakistani Hand, then why still hiccups?



The issue is simple.
The erieye uses Link-16 and so do the PAF falcons.
The protocol that will be used to communicate between the KE and the JF will be different.
To convert both link-16 data and the other protocol on board the Aircraft will require extra processing power and effort.
Instead.. the Erieye also sends its data back to the ground, from where it it sent to the JF via UHF radio.

It may not be efficient.. or as effective as a direct link. but its a cost and effort saving measure.

All aircraft will be able to communicate with each other on secure radio..
Whether its the JF to the erieye, or the KE to the Falcons.

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## PakShaheen79

IMHO, PAF would certainly acquire some Western hardware on F-16's to get them communicated with Erieyes. ZDK-03+JF-17 combo would give real tactical ambiguity to PAF against IAF as except from Pakistan and China, nobody would have exact idea of the true capabilities of these AEW platform.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> IMHO, PAF would certainly acquire some Western hardware on F-16's to get them communicated with Erieyes. ZDK-03+JF-17 combo would give real tactical ambiguity to PAF against IAF as except from Pakistan and China, nobody would have exact idea of the true capabilities of these AEW platform.


AFAIK they (F-16 A/B) were carrying a Pod on wingtip in Red Flag....


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## Bratva

Santro said:


> The issue is simple.
> The erieye uses Link-16 and so do the PAF falcons.
> The protocol that will be used to communicate between the KE and the JF will be different.
> To convert both link-16 data and the other protocol on board the Aircraft will require extra processing power and effort.
> Instead.. the Erieye also sends its data back to the ground, from where it it sent to the JF via UHF radio.
> 
> It may not be efficient.. or as effective as a direct link. but its a cost and effort saving measure.
> 
> All aircraft will be able to communicate with each other on secure radio..
> Whether its the JF to the erieye, or the KE to the Falcons.



Santro do you think this strategy will work in real time battle field? where JF-17 and erieye working side by side. Time to send data to each is certainly less then sending data to each other through a third party. The time lost in between sending a data to ground and then back to destination aircraft considering atmospheric factors and what if JF-17 is at somewhere where your signal will reach with some distortions. Time loss and Signal distortions in data sending, could they put JF-17 at disadvantage in Real time battlefield?


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> Santro do you think this strategy will work in real time battle field? where JF-17 and erieye working side by side. Time to send data to each is certainly less then sending data to each other through a third party. The time lost in between sending a data to ground and then back to destination aircraft considering atmospheric factors and what if JF-17 is at somewhere where your signal will reach with some distortions. Time loss and Signal distortions in data sending, could they put JF-17 at disadvantage in Real time battlefield?



It would, however, it depends on how many times the picture is refreshed. 
for eg.. a single update by an erieye would give a JF a picture of the battlespace. 
And all the JF's in that flight have that picture, a picture that is added to by their collective sensors.
So if the picture is coming in every .. say with latency... one or 2 seconds. it still allows the flight to plan out its next move.

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## DANGER-ZONE

self deleted


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## Saifullah Sani




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## Imran Khan

what the hell jasoos tiyara mean lolz are they talking abut AWACS or UAV?

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## Doctor09

Imran Khan said:


> what the hell jasoos tiyara mean lolz are they talking abut AWACS or UAV?


i think its UAV but if they are trying to mention here AWACS then

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## Mani2020

Imran Khan said:


> what the hell jasoos tiyara mean lolz are they talking abut AWACS or UAV?





doctor09 said:


> think its UAV but if they are trying to mention here AWACS then



They are talking about AWACS because that is what PAF is acquiring in the quantity of 4 , why would PAF be acquiring UAVs in the quantity of just 4, Secondly for UAV our media uses the term "beghair pilot k tayaray" plus you know how dumb our media is in reporting defence news so forgive them for that but these are AWACS

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## muse

Maybe ISPR could do a better job of briefing media and then we would not have such problems with media.


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## Mani2020

muse said:


> Maybe ISPR could do a better job of briefing media and then we would not have such problems with media.



Why always throw blame on ISPR or military related institutes?This is not such a humongous problem that the media needs assistance from ISPR. These are basic terms which any person can know about by simply googling it . I bet you if they had spent atleast 5 minutes googling there wouldn't have been such blunders. Media should be responsible for her words,if they are running such costly channels they should atleast hire some people who have bit of knowledge regarding such aspects and not like lay persons who don't even have slightest of ideas about what they are uttering

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## PakShaheen79

I think it is responsibility of "Muqtadra Quami Zuban' and "Academy Adbiyaat Urdu" to define specific terms for both UAV and AWACS.


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## I M Sikander

Saifullah Sani said:


>


This report is in todays express newspaper. Any official word from PAF in this regard. I think its the Chinese AWACS not a "Jasoos tayara".


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## [--Leo--]

sorry i didn,t point of jasoos is pakistan getting awacs or some drone? or any thing stealth


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## MZUBAIR

If its ZDK03, then news should be "dosra taray"......coz we already have on ZDK03


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## Mani2020

MZUBAIR said:


> If its ZDK03, then news should be "dosra taray"......coz we already have on ZDK03



No we didn't had any, the first one was rolled out in China long ago but then it went for certain changes in the radar thus never delivered to PAF . The picture you posted is from that rolling out ceremony


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## Arsalan

the first ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle Delivered to PAF. it landed today at Masror Air Base!!!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...e-awe-c-zdk-03-karakoram-eagle-delivered.html






check out details at:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...e-awe-c-zdk-03-karakoram-eagle-delivered.html


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## PakShaheen79

Alhamdolillah, a great news.A big stride forward for PAF.


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## SBD-3

Even on the 3rd of March KKE was at Yanilang

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## Imran Khan

you have live satellite monitoring capability ? google earth images are years old lolz


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## epinephrine

what r the specs of zdk 03? radar range n type etc?


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## Imran Khan

epinephrine said:


> what r the specs of zdk 03? radar range n type etc?



only china PAF and god knows better you ask any of them which is near to you lolzzz

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## fatman17

epinephrine said:


> what r the specs of zdk 03? radar range n type etc?



browse the thread - info is posted.


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## Safriz

Santro said:


> It would, however, it depends on how many times the picture is refreshed.
> for eg.. a single update by an erieye would give a JF a picture of the battlespace.
> And all the JF's in that flight have that picture, a picture that is added to by their collective sensors.
> So if the picture is coming in every .. say with latency... one or 2 seconds. it still allows the flight to plan out its next move.


 
for a couple of seconds the systems can do.away with dead reckoning.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

With arrival of 3 more units things will get a lot smoother for operational capabilities of our air force together with 50 JF17 thunders 
That is a big addition to our air force's capabilities


Found a high resolution picture of our AWACs


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## PakShaheen79

update on ZDK
---------------

ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (serial # T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a traditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose and tail with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as two small vertical tail stabilizers. The Y-8 AWACS protoype was promoted to Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now dubbed ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m deal. The first ZDK-03 prototype rolled out in November 2010 at SAC. Since then it has been undergoing test at CFTE (S/N 733). ZDK-03 is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it appears to lack the secure datalink to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. The first ZDK-03 is expected to be delivered within 2011. A recent image (September 2011) suggested that a domestic version might be in development at SAC which could provide a cheaper alternative to KJ-200. The latest rumor (October 2011) claimed that the first ZDK-03 was delivered.

Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

Still there is no specific info on type of radar and its true capabilities. But i think it is understandable. revealing such info would be counter productive for PAF.


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## PakShaheen79




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## dilpakistani

quite ironic that there are still no pics of ZDK-03 in PAF ....


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## Zarvan

When will second arrive ?


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## Dr. Strangelove

Zarvan said:


> When will second arrive ?


we dont know but it is possible that we will see another in 6-8 months

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## fatman17

dilpakistani said:


> quite ironic that there are still no pics of ZDK-03 in PAF ....



arrival of the 1st a/c is still a 'rumour'!


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## monitor

Who spread the rumour


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## dilpakistani

It was widely reported in news papers!!!


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## Dazzler

delivery is expected anytime between this or next month. Meanwhile, enjoy this...

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## Imran Khan

nabil_05 said:


> delivery is expected anytime between this or next month. Meanwhile, enjoy this...



this is same whine we enjoying since 1 month sir we need new brand now


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## Dazzler

Replace WINE with JUICE than i will join the party. 

---------- Post added at 09:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ----------

final trials are over and preparation for delivery to PAF.

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## Imran Khan

nabil_05 said:


> Replace WINE with JUICE than i will join the party.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ----------
> 
> final trials are over and preparation for delivery to PAF.



ok sir i send (MUNDA) for juice .lolz i am sick from old images sir again and againd members post same images which i watch already 1034092350984580 times .its make me crazy .so next month delivery khabreen wala JASOOS tiyara kya tha ?

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## Dazzler

wo meri khabar le uraaa


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## BATMAN

Imran Khan said:


> this is same whine we enjoying since 1 month sir we need new brand now



Imran some times you make funny spell mistakes... i'm suspicious about you.

Picture was new for me, while more important was the news attached with the picture.

BTW... where do you find wine in Pakistan? 

I just noticed that at the moment, your thanks count stands 8888.


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## Imran Khan

BATMAN said:


> Imran some times you make funny spell mistakes... i'm suspicious about you.



opps sorry sir these are just mistakes nothing more 





> more important was the news attached with the picture.



this pic was posted by chines member and we know since 6 months first one is ready lolz .nothing new sir




> BTW... where do you find wine in Pakistan?




every street every bazar every city every town every hotel has whine sales men in pakistan .



> I just noticed that at the moment, your thanks count stands 8888.



ohhh ye public ka karam hai jo de rahi hai thanks andha dhund


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## BATMAN

Imran Khan said:


> every street every bazar every city every town every hotel has whine sales men in pakistan .



Are sure what you are drinking is wine?

I'm afraid some has sold you Shezan grape juice in bottle of wine.


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## Dazzler

can we exclude this "WINE" from discussion?


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## dilpakistani

goshhhhh i wanna see that thing more than i wanna see my girlfriend.... i think i should get some life now....


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## Imran Khan

dilpakistani said:


> goshhhhh i wanna see that thing more than i wanna see my girlfriend.... i think i should get some life now....



no you are wrong dear that was AIM-120 and CFT on block-52 which i wait for more then any other thing this zdk-03 is confirmed


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## Manticore

dont think its been posted before..

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## Imran Khan

ANTIBODY said:


> dont think its been posted before..



yes sir you are right these are 2 brand new in yellow color i can see with my big black eyes .and as my little brain say to me more ZDK-03 are rolled out and in testing . am i right?

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## Dazzler

both these are even painted with PAF paint scheme as the one in previous pic shows.


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## a1b2c145

China navy force also love this bird&#65292;they ordered this


----------



## regular

the birds looks so great...umm... at least 6 shold be good for the PAF....


----------



## Manticore

ANTIBODY said:


> dont think its been posted before..


----------



## BATMAN

nabil_05 said:


> both these are even painted with PAF paint scheme as the one in previous pic shows.



Does this means those are fully integrated in PAF while being in China, while the pictures with yellow color are much older.


----------



## Dazzler

to an extent yes but more modification of datalink and other protocols will be done in Pakistan. These are flexible systems and have options for multiple datalink channels as well as other "unspecified" goodies.

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## Imran Khan

but they are for PLAN and PLAAF lolz as we see they got new ZDK-03


----------



## Super Falcon

imran bhai yeh jhaz hamesha start man yelllow color ka kyon hoty han any reason


----------



## Imran Khan

Super Falcon said:


> imran bhai yeh jhaz hamesha start man yelllow color ka kyon hoty han any reason



for air frames test and evaluation dear after tests they Analise them if every thing ok and passed structural tests they paint livery on it .


----------



## Dazzler

nabil_05 said:


>



Did you miss this pic?? PLA navy has shown interest in PAF specifications this is why you see them flying a similar version. Does not mean we cancelled order and they got it.

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## Imran Khan

nabil_05 said:


> Did you miss this pic?? PLA navy has shown interest in PAF specifications this is why you see them flying a similar version. Does not mean we cancelled order and they got it.



i never say cancel or even late sir i said these all are not for us PLA also taking delivery from these new ZDK-03 sir although we have small order and PLA may get much more numbers .


----------



## Dazzler

apparently, the zdk-03 pic with PLAAf emblem is a photoshop according to Huitong

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## Dr. Strangelove



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## Manticore

---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------










---------- Post added at 05:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------










---------- Post added at 05:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------







thanks brocolli

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## Cool_Soldier

is it third one in PAF?


----------



## Manticore



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## raazh

AoA,
Very interesting to see the difference in angle of blades on both the Y-8F600 P&W and Saab2000 RR propellers. I wonder which configuration has better effect on speed, fuel consumption, thurst/weight ratio, higher altitute performance etc.

Reply from any knowledgable member will be much appreciated.


----------



## hatf IX

basically they are rotatable as shown in below video to get maximum efficiency . . . . . .

different angle at different speeds . . . . . .

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## kashmir123

Owais said:


> Then why the hell thay are going for eyrie when they know that India already have a counter option.:hrr:
> 
> don't they have other options??


 they have options but not approval of america phalcon was jointley devloped by usa and israel........


----------



## Manticore




----------



## isi admirer

what about help from china???? any senior member


----------



## MZUBAIR

Is Saab 2000 stealth???


----------



## regular

MZUBAIR said:


> Is Saab 2000 stealth???


Oh No! they not stealth Sir.....


----------



## Stealth

MZUBAIR said:


> Is Saab 2000 stealth???




No i am Stealth

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## Imran Khan

MZUBAIR said:


> Is Saab 2000 stealth???



transport plane with turbo prop engines yaar  RCS is same as jumbo jet


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

*Rare View of SAAB 2000 door opened *














Erieye Side view

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## air marshal



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## ANG

Hi, the ERIEYE is a good acquisition for the PAF and looks really nice. However, I just wish the PAF had selected the Embraer 145RJ or even better the Embraer 195. These jets have more space, better range, payload, and speed. Most importantly, they would have allowed for the PAF ERIEYEs to be independent of ground processing stations, as all processing could have be done on board the plane.


----------



## Patriot

ANG said:


> Hi, the ERIEYE is a good acquisition for the PAF and looks really nice. However, I just wish the PAF had selected the Embraer 145RJ or even better the Embraer 195. These jets have more space, better range, payload, and speed. Most importantly, they would have allowed for the PAF ERIEYEs to be independent of ground processing stations, as all processing could have be done on board the plane.


The processing is still done on board the plane - There are approximately 4 stations on the plane which can be used to display data and it can be forwarded to other ground stations as well.The ground stations are optional not mandatory.


----------



## Sapper

ANG said:


> Hi, the ERIEYE is a good acquisition for the PAF and looks really nice. However, I just wish the PAF had selected the Embraer 145RJ or even better the Embraer 195. These jets have more space, better range, payload, and speed. Most importantly, they would have allowed for the PAF ERIEYEs to be independent of ground processing stations, as all processing could have be done on board the plane.



Dear,

Erieye has been mounted atop three platforms as of now ... Saab340, Saab2000, and EMB145(EM-R99). These were all civilian passenger crafts and their standard seating capcities, cruise speed, ranges, and approximate flight endurance are as below

Saab-340 ---------- 37 passengers ---------- 460kph ---------- 1700km ---------- ~4 hrs
EMB-145 ----------- 44~50 passengers ----- 820kph --------- 3700km ---------- ~5 hrs
Saab-2000 -------- 50~58 passengers ----- 680kph ---------- 3600km ---------- 9.5 hrs

I think PAF made the best possible choice ... we have to optimize endurance and cut down flight costs, because we dont have a large enough country to justify EMB-145 selection based on just 140kph speed difference.

As for EM195, Saab has chosen not to use larger jet to keep costs of acquisition & operation as low as possible while providing maximum functionality onboard as well as on ground.

Regards,
Sapper

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## MastanKhan

Sapper said:


> Dear,
> 
> Erieye has been mounted atop three platforms as of now ... Saab340, Saab2000, and EMB145(EM-R99). These were all civilian passenger crafts and their standard seating capcities, cruise speed, ranges, and approximate flight endurance are as below
> 
> Saab-340 ---------- 37 passengers ---------- 460kph ---------- 1700km ---------- ~4 hrs
> EMB-145 ----------- 44~50 passengers ----- 820kph --------- 3700km ---------- ~5 hrs
> Saab-2000 -------- 50~58 passengers ----- 680kph ---------- 3600km ---------- 9.5 hrs
> 
> I think PAF made the best possible choice ... we have to optimize endurance and cut down flight costs, because we dont have a large enough country to justify EMB-145 selection based on just 140kph speed difference.
> 
> As for EM195, Saab has chosen not to use larger jet to keep costs of acquisition & operation as low as possible while providing maximum functionality onboard as well as on ground.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



Hi,

Thank you---I believe for awacs---the time in the air is of essence rather than 140 km per hr speed---.


----------



## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you---I believe for awacs---the time in the air is of essence rather than 140 km per hr speed---.


Moreover, having a less endurance AWACS would not only hurt the ability of PAF to continuously monitor, but also the life of maintenance crew as one would have only 5 hours to get the bird ready again to take to the skies.


----------



## ANG

Hi Mr. Sapper, I was unaware that the SAAB 2000 had a longer loiter time than the EMB-145. The PAF made the right choice then. I guess it is my personal bias towards a big fancy jet, getting in the way.


----------



## Manticore



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## Cool_Soldier

It is still not clear, how many Saab erieye PAF have recived till now.I guess 3 or 4.
Any one has confirmation.?


----------



## Donatello

muse said:


> Maybe ISPR could do a better job of briefing media and then we would not have such problems with media.



ISPR doesn't need to brief them....most people here on PDF do a better job without getting paid for it......i wonder why the journalists are so dumb...


----------



## MZUBAIR

Today, Pakistans one of leading newspaper (nawaiwaqat-lahore) says!!!!

*Pakistan is superior to India in AWACs/AEW&Cs Aircrafts*

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## Nirvana

MZUBAIR said:


> Today, Pakistans one of leading newspaper (nawaiwaqat-lahore) says!!!!
> 
> *Pakistan is superior to India in AWACs/AEW&Cs Aircrafts*



Yes , Pakistan Is with it Current Fleet of AWACS Aircrafts !! India at Present has Only 3 Israeli Phalcon AWACS Systems On Il-76 Platforms

But Once DRDO AEW&CS On Embraer Platform Hits Production This Stats May Change

IAF Has Ordered 2 More Israeli Phalcon AWACS


----------



## fatman17

Nirvana said:


> Yes , Pakistan Is with it Current Fleet of AWACS Aircrafts !! India at Present has Only 3 Israeli Phalcon AWACS Systems On Il-76 Platforms
> 
> But Once DRDO AEW&CS On Embraer Platform Hits Production This Stats May Change
> 
> IAF Has Ordered 2 More Israeli Phalcon AWACS



i would not lay much emphasis on this newspaper's opinion - urdu press news is questionable at best!

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## ice_man

ANTIBODY said:


>



the crew seems pretty young if my guess serves me right most men are Flying Officers & not even Flt.Lieutenant. why are we putting such young inexperienced men on such high end stuff! they might be very talented but experience is a whole different thing!


----------



## TaimiKhan

ice_man said:


> the crew seems pretty young if my guess serves me right most men are Flying Officers & not even Flt.Lieutenant. why are we putting such young inexperienced men on such high end stuff! they might be very talented but experience is a whole different thing!



Most probably young cadets having a field trip to the base and having a pic with the plane.


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> i would not lay much emphasis on this newspaper's opinion - urdu press news is questionable at best!


Its quoting from Strategypage (the trollpage i call it)....


----------



## SBD-3

ice_man said:


> the crew seems pretty young if my guess serves me right most men are Flying Officers & not even Flt.Lieutenant. why are we putting such young inexperienced men on such high end stuff! they might be very talented but experience is a whole different thing!


The question is, do somebody in PAF has the experience of managing AWACS? .......PAF will most probably start from scratch, My guess is that people from radar operations would have been allocated to AWACS, after all, if have to put someone in training why not start with a mix rather than predominantly experienced staff.


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## air marshal

*Air force wants two more warning and control system aircrafts*
November 14, 2011

By Hemanth CS

Recognising the importance of having force multipliers, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has evinced keen interest in acquiring two more Airborne Warning and Control System aircraft.

The aircraft, which is the IAF&#8217;s &#8220;eye in the sky&#8221;, is based on the Russian IL-76 platform and the Israeli Phalcon AWACS Radar and is primarily used for reconnaissance purposes.

The decision to add two more Awacs aircraft in addition to the existing three comes in the wake of the Pakistan Air Force recently raising the Chinese made ZDK-03, also known as the Karakoram Eagles.

Pakistan also has Swedish SAAB 2000 AWACS. In all, the PAF will have eight AWACS in the near future (three AWACS aircraft each of the ZDK-03 and SAAB 2000 will be inducted in the near future).

India is also developing indigenous Airborne Early Warning & Control System (AEW&C) which is being built on a modified Embraer EMB-145 aircraft in Brazil.

The aircraft is expected to be flown to India in a few months, and it will be integrated with Active-Array Antenna Unit, mission systems, radar etc by Bangalore- based Centre for Airborne Systems.

Defence experts feel AEW&C will redefine battle surveillance capabilities as armed forces can neutralise attacks from adversaries in advance. AEW&C can detect enemy aircraft or UAVs and relay information to the ground bases.

Air force wants two more warning and control system aircrafts - India - DNA


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## airbus101

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/...ady_for_delivery_but_small_-_26_11_11_-_1.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/...ady_for_delivery_but_small_-_26_11_11_-_2.jpg

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## Imran Khan

*AIRBUS101 ROCKED IT *

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## razgriz19

^^ orignally posted by airbus101

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## airbus101

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/...ady_for_delivery_but_small_-_26_11_11_-_2.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/...ady_for_delivery_but_small_-_26_11_11_-_1.jpg

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## atlantis_cn

Imran Khan said:


> *AIRBUS101 ROCKED IT *



The plane was shot at Kashi(Kashgar) airport in Xinjiang a few days ago. Why's it there? Waiting to transfer to Pakistan?

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## fatman17

nice job of taking the pics.....its either on its way or on a training sortie....!

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## VelocuR

Proudly read 'Pakistan Air Force' clearly !













Realize, pictures look same, lol. Oops.

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## houshanghai



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## SEAL

Its looks great will certainly enhance our situation awareness and early warning data.


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## Bratva

comparing raptor and houshsanghi pics,It seems ZDK-03 has many antennas on it on top of it in Houshangi pics and ZDK in raptor contains no antennas on it. What's the mystery?


----------



## AwA.

q


mafiya said:


> comparing raptor and houshsanghi pics,It seems ZDK-03 has many antennas on it on top of it in Houshangi pics and ZDK in raptor contains no antennas on it. What's the mystery?


 
These antennas are present in both the pics. In earlier pics, these antennas are hardly visible due to the background and the light. where as in the later pics these are shinning like a star because of direction of light and background,


----------



## aimarraul

houshanghai said:


>



these are the most clear ZDK03 pics so far

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## MJaa

houshanghai said:


>



Awesome addition for PAF


----------



## Cool_Soldier

Sunday, November 27, 2011
ZDK-03 AEW&C Karakoram Eagle Aircraft Ready For Delivery

These are the first complete images of the Sino-Pak ZDK-03 Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) Karakoram Eagle just before delivery to Pakistan Air Force.ZDK-03 AEW&C Karakoram Eagle provides 360º radar coverage with Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar.


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## Cool_Soldier




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## VelocuR

aimarraul said:


> these are the most clear ZDK03 pics so far



Nice Antennas on the top- a new stylist Mohawaks Hair.

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## hatf IX

will it give any benefit to nation ? . . . . . who's money is used to buy it . . . . . big No
or will it give any benefit to our brave, devoted and courageous solders . . . . . . . again . . . .. . . big NO

has it benefited generals . . . .. . . .. . of course . . . . .. . Yes they might have gotten a big chunk of commission or kick back 

so to me its just a sitting duck . . . . that lay eggs for GENERALS only . . ..


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## hatf IX

double post


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## hatf IX

double post


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## Cool_Soldier

I have feeling this bird will be delivered with in this month


----------



## regular

Yes! we gonna get this bird this month or within the first week of december.....I guess....


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

guys can i point out somthing the dome seems to be rotatins should AESA dome do that?


----------



## TOPGUN

Awsome pic's finally the wait has been over with ... can't wait to see it in our skies mashallah good job PAF.


----------



## krash

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> guys can i point out somthing the dome seems to be rotatins should AESA dome do that?



The C-295AEW of the IAI and Airbus also uses the AESA+Rotodome configuration. Saves cost, weight, etc.







IAI, Airbus Military Team On C-295AEW | AVIATION WEEK

and

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blog...&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

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## MJaa

These are the first complete images of the Sino-Pak ZDK-03 Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) Karakoram Eagle just before delivery to Pakistan Air Force.ZDK-03 AEW&C Karakoram Eagle provides 360º radar coverage with Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar.

Read more: ZDK-03 AEW&C Karakoram Eagle Aircraft Ready For Delivery ~ Pakistan Military Review


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

krash said:


> The C-295AEW of the IAI and Airbus also uses the AESA+Rotodome configuration. Saves cost, weight, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IAI, Airbus Military Team On C-295AEW | AVIATION WEEK
> 
> and
> 
> Airbus Military and Elta Systems Introduce the CN295 AEW&amp;C


so elestronic scanning in this dome only works in a Y axis or top to bottom and rest or X axis is done by dome rotation?


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## Arsalan

well, leaving the onboard electronics aside, this ZDK-03 definetely looks amazing and much better the Erieye.











talking about the looks, it truely looks like an AWE&C, dosent it???


----------



## farhan_9909

anyone know about its range?

and congrats to every buddy


----------



## SEAL

Our Awacs definitely require one more paint job.


----------



## wangrong




----------



## Najam Khan

Good news, looking forward to hear its induction news too!

So now Thunders have 2 types of AWACS....Somewhere by mid of 2013 we will see Thunders linking-up with them


----------



## Bratva

NAjAM Khan said:


> Good news, looking forward to hear its induction news too!
> 
> So now Thunders have 2 types of AWACS....Somewhere by mid of 2013 we will see Thunders linking-up with them



JF-17 has necessary equipment to data link with these awacs right away, why this delay then. I understand delay in SAAB case but JF-17 is using Western communication devices and MIL-155D (Please correct me here) standard western microprocessor, then i can't comprehend the delay.


----------



## SQ8

mafiya said:


> JF-17 has necessary equipment to data link with these awacs right away, why this delay then. I understand delay in SAAB case but JF-17 is using Western communication devices and MIL-155D (Please correct me here) standard western microprocessor, then i can't comprehend the delay.



There is work on a common datalink, one that will talk to both western and Chinese platforms and should in theory allow a F-16 to talk to the ZDK.. DIRECTLY.

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## regular

mafiya said:


> JF-17 has necessary equipment to data link with these awacs right away, why this delay then. I understand delay in SAAB case but JF-17 is using Western communication devices and MIL-155D (Please correct me here) standard western microprocessor, then i can't comprehend the delay.


I guess pplz in our PAF are getting lazy thats why they taking so long. I don't see any reason for the delay either....


----------



## Najam Khan

mafiya said:


> JF-17 has necessary equipment to data link with these awacs right away, why this delay then. I understand delay in SAAB case but JF-17 is using Western communication devices and **MIL-155D* (Please correct me here) standard western microprocessor, then i can't comprehend the delay.



Things are not simple as they look...PAF will get it by mid of 2012. Add six months for training and conversion of pilots onto ZDK-03, in the remaining time evaluation of the aircraft will be done in different sectors of Pakistan. If things go as planned Thunder's integration can be done earlier too.

*Its MIL-STD-1553B.

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## Najam Khan

SAAB-2000 had no issue with JF-17. 25 Sqn Mirages were tested in 2008. At that time first batch of thunders were in initial evaluation by PAF. Thunders might have been tested in High Mark 2010...if not, it will be done in 2012 as third squadron will raise soon.


----------



## regular

NAjAM Khan said:


> Things are not simple as they look...PAF will get it by mid of 2012. Add six months for training and conversion of pilots onto ZDK-03, in the remaining time evaluation of the aircraft will be done in different sectors of Pakistan. If things go as planned Thunder's integration can be done earlier too.
> 
> *Its MIL-STD-1553B.


Yes! the integration shold be done as soon as possible, the sooner it is done the better it would be.You never know what will happen tomorrow especially with US/NATO.....


----------



## Tehmasib

good news as Pakies but wait please........time will tells us how effective these birds are.......
i am feeling after silala check post attack and found 26 mytered why we are dumping these arsels and equipments...


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

*Here's Erieye departing after Dubai air show. Clear Side view* 








> Pakistan - Air Force Saab 2000 Erieye Departing after a welcome show appearance, one of four AEW Saabs for Pakistan


United Arab Emirates, November 17, 2011

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## regular

I guess we bought these Air Toyz to just display within the shows only cuz they are worthless in saving the lives of our poor soldiers......I guess we've been made fools by by our elites in collecting all these toyz which have no use yet....cuz if US/NATO attacks us we can't even defend our soliers either.......

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## fjavaid

regular said:


> I guess we bought these Air Toyz to just display within the shows only cuz they are worthless in saving the lives of our poor soldiers......I guess we've been made fools by by our elites in collecting all these toyz which have no use yet....cuz if US/NATO attacks us we can't even defend our soliers either.......


 
Yes i wish ...we wud ever know that where were PAF during Two hours of continued attack by NATO helos ... ...


----------



## fjavaid

China Air Force's considers Y-8 ZDK-03 AEW bird for its own use ....
its Blog news but i hv found New from true almost all the time since 2005
China Defense Blog: China Air Force's own Y-8 ZDK-03 AEW bird


----------



## air marshal

Finally...

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## unicorn

It is in Pakistan and yet no official word.Strange


----------



## SQ8

unicorn said:


> It is in Pakistan and yet no official word.Strange



It may or may not invite a public backlash considering the recent violations of Pakistani airspace.
There are many a cynics who will bring up the question of all these sophisticated systems being for naught.


----------



## Cool_Soldier

So ZDk03 arrived in Pakistan..?


----------



## HANI

unicorn said:


> It is in Pakistan and yet no official word.Strange



Its not new sir we already see A-100 in Pakistan but still after so many months there is no official statement about them ... So we does n,t say whats cooking and what is already be delivers to us........


----------



## Imran Khan

HANI said:


> Its not new sir we already see A-100 in Pakistan but still after so many months there is no official statement about them ... So we does n,t say whats cooking and what is already be delivers to us........




i think when they will induct it they have party


----------



## Jango

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4091/blnhf.jpg

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## fatman17

^^very nice pics


----------



## nomi007

i don't think that zdk-03 is is in china


----------



## HANI

Imran Khan said:


> i think when they will induct it they have party



With due respect sir having party on some thing new is not what i am saying...... to officially confirm some thing regarding a defence deal is not such a bad thing correct me if i am wrong..............


----------



## Imran Khan

HANI said:


> With due respect sir having party on some thing new is not what i am saying...... to officially confirm some thing regarding a defence deal is not such a bad thing correct me if i am wrong..............



if you remember SAAB-2000 arrival and induction story you know meaning of my post sir.


----------



## Jango

fatman17 said:


> ^^very nice pics



Thanks. These pics are very clear as well.

One thing though, the PAF roundel is too diffused don't you think, even fro low visibility camo.


----------



## fjavaid

Congrats to the nation ....was waiting for this for a long time ....
i have a question :
are our ERIEYE operational yet ....mean to say flight crew training finished or still thy are getting acquainted with the system ...


----------



## krash

nuclearpak said:


> Thanks. These pics are very clear as well.
> 
> One thing though, the PAF roundel is too diffused don't you think, even fro low visibility camo.



I think thats the remnants of a scraped off roundel and a flag showing. I think it is yet to be painted with the final coats. Like the time when the Blck 52s arrived. They were first painted with the flag then the flag was erased then when they reached Pakistan the flag was repainted.


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## air marshal

From Dubai Air Show 2011

All sizes | 10025 Saab2000 Pakistan AF | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

All sizes | 10-025 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

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## nwmalik

get real........


----------



## ziaulislam

wellwisher said:


> Now pak need to prepare his self for usa and nato


why?
all we have to do is ask US?NATO not to attack targets in Pakistan...
Pak has given green signals to attacks in pakistan terrority under such green light US?NATO can attack insurgents. So expect this to happen in future again unless govt clearly ask NATo not to violate its terrority...

why did we saw any response to drones attacks that have killed over 1000s peoples? because as US generals say we allowed it


----------



## araz

HANI said:


> With due respect sir having party on some thing new is not what i am saying...... to officially confirm some thing regarding a defence deal is not such a bad thing correct me if i am wrong..............



PAF will never confirm or deny anything unless it becomes necessary.
Araz


----------



## HANI

araz said:


> PAF will never confirm or deny anything unless it becomes necessary.
> Araz



Agreed .... Our another friend on a sister forum has also mentioned about PAF acquiring FD-2000 4 years ago but still no source and confirmation like A-100............


----------



## Mani2020

ZDK-03 sighted in Karachi


----------



## air marshal

^^^ Posted already in previous pages.

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## Peregrine

Really curious to know about the capabilities of ZDK-03......If any one has any credible info, do fill me in.


----------



## VelocuR

Remember this picture few years ago, people make fun of it. Claim this picture is false or imagination. 

Dream come true !

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## HANI

well said Raptor dreams really come true...........

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## TaimiKhan

i remember the days when members used to say that it was something based on KJ-200 nd linear shaped radar and i used to say it was dome shaped one. 

those were the days.

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## VelocuR

TaimiKhan said:


> i remember the days when members used to say that it was something based on KJ-200 nd linear shaped radar and i used to say it was dome shaped one.
> 
> those were the days.



Yes, I remember very well. There were heavy arguments, point-scores, and repeating same questions, lol. Alot of trolls attacks as well. 

Good reminder, two years later these pictures prove them wrong finally.


----------



## TOPGUN

I must say guys what a beautyful bird  it is indeed mashallah good job PAF and may GOD bless Pakistan always

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## S-A-B-E-R->

HANI said:


> well said Raptor dreams really come true...........


 guys is it me or the front structure or the cockpit a little different in the 2 pics ....a modification mabe


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## krash

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> guys is it me or the front structure or the cockpit a little different in the 2 pics ....a modification mabe



No you are right the new platform is a newer version of the old platform. Other differences you might notice are the different engines (old: 4 bladed propeller, new: six bladed), the fuselage is less bulging, the fuselage tail section is different (a pointy tail extending from the fuselage in the newer one while the older one has a block like ending), although the vertical stabilizer itself is of the same size, the rudder is larger in the newer one and there's something extra on the wing tips and under the belly too.

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## fatman17

^ nice comparison of the two. the older a/c is definately heavier than the newer model

---------- Post added at 09:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------




TaimiKhan said:


> i remember the days when members used to say that it was something based on KJ-200 nd linear shaped radar and i used to say it was *dome shaped one*.
> 
> those were the days.



plus AESA!!!

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## Stealth

ugly face!


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## Nishan_101

This is the same thing that happened with me, as I saw Saab-2000 and many people take me a liar and I also live in Karachi, now I some times see Saab-2000 AEW&Cs its a nice bird with very less noise, like if you are in a traffic jam then you won't even now which thing goes off over your head. I agree that Chinese AEW&C's are there....... Thanks for sharing this with us.


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## fatman17

last nite met the OC of the ZDK03 Squadron which will be based at Karachi - Masroor AFB. the AESA radar is confirmed and the operator is very happy with the performance of the AWACS system. its AOR is going to be the southern coastal area from rann of kutch to gwadar. the PAF crews spent ~6 months in China, testing, evaluating and training. the 3rd JFT squadron most likely will be also based at Masroor in order to 'data-link' the fighter with the AWACS.

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## fatman17

one final point the nation should whole-heartedly thank the efforts of AC - Virjee who was Project Manager for both the Erieye and ZDK03 systems. a brilliant and dedicated officer in the PAF.

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## Areesh

^^^

Good for us Karachiites that both JFT and ZDK-03 would be based in Karachi. Who is this Mr Virjee?

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> last nite met the OC of the ZDK03 Squadron which will be based at Karachi - Masroor AFB. the AESA radar is confirmed and the operator is very happy with the performance of the AWACS system. its AOR is going to be the southern coastal area from rann of kutch to gwadar. the PAF crews spent ~6 months in China, testing, evaluating and training. the 3rd JFT squadron most likely will be also based at Masroor in order to 'data-link' the fighter with the AWACS.



JFT will be based at Karachi? A strange development. Dedicated to naval operations or simply Data-linking?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

fatman17 said:


> last nite met the OC of the ZDK03 Squadron which will be based at Karachi - Masroor AFB. the AESA radar is confirmed and the operator is very happy with the performance of the AWACS system. its AOR is going to be the southern coastal area from rann of kutch to gwadar. the PAF crews spent ~6 months in China, testing, evaluating and training. the 3rd JFT squadron most likely will be also based at Masroor in order to 'data-link' the fighter with the AWACS.



many thanks for the update!

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## fatman17

Areesh said:


> ^^^
> 
> Good for us Karachiites that both JFT and ZDK-03 would be based in Karachi. *Who is this Mr Virjee*?



Air Commodore Virjee is a dedicated and brilliant Parsi officer in the PAF.

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## mymeaningislion

i hope these aircrafts could detect american or nato crafts. otherwise no need for this.


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## Tehmasib

fatman17 said:


> Air Commodore Virjee is a dedicated and brilliant Parsi officer in the PAF.



is Air Commodore is raletive of Urd Sher Kosjee..........????


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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> last nite met the OC of the ZDK03 Squadron which will be based at Karachi - Masroor AFB. the AESA radar is confirmed and the operator is very happy with the performance of the AWACS system. its AOR is going to be the southern coastal area from rann of kutch to gwadar. the PAF crews spent ~6 months in China, testing, evaluating and training. the 3rd JFT squadron most likely will be also based at Masroor in order to 'data-link' the fighter with the AWACS.



Thanks sir, any details about squadron's number? No.2 Sqn's F-7s are near the end of their service...if they aren't replaced then some of them have to be overhauled, 8 Sqn Mirages were inducted in late 70s they can be replaced. If No.7 Sqn is re-equipped with Thunders, then PAF has to change roles of at-least one Mirage squadron.


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## SBD-3

Tehmasib said:


> is Air Commodore is raletive of Urd Sher Kosjee..........????


.....well that would not be necessarily true *Bhaijee* 

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------




nuclearpak said:


> JFT will be based at Karachi? A strange development. Dedicated to naval operations or simply Data-linking?


Mirages are being used in NAVAL role, Its very likely that JFTs will replace them in Naval roles. However, Naval role will be an addition since the JFT is a MR fighter means it can also perform the role of F-7s in interception mode.....I strongly feel that a couple of tankers should also be deployed here which would essentially make JFT a long range maritime strike fighter, thus a strong deterrence to IN over the sea...

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## Dazzler

JFT WILL replace Mirages. Thats why it is being tested with C-80X missiles and and is already compliant with ZDK-03 AWACS. Confirmed! We at Karachi will soon see it flying daily in place of Mirages and F-7s

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## Jango

hasnain0099 said:


> .....well that would not be necessarily true *Bhaijee*
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Mirages are being used in NAVAL role, Its very likely that JFTs will replace them in Naval roles. However, Naval role will be an addition since the JFT is a MR fighter means it can also perform the role of F-7s in interception mode.....I strongly feel that a couple of tankers should also be deployed here which would essentially make JFT a long range maritime strike fighter, thus a strong deterrence to IN over the sea...



Nabils post confirms my hunch.

Get a Midas there, and we will be really fine there TBH.


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## farhan_9909

nabil_05 said:


> JFT WILL replace Mirages. Thats why it is being tested with C-80X missiles and and is already compliant with ZDK-03 AWACS. Confirmed! We at Karachi will soon see it flying daily in place of Mirages and F-7s



and this also means that the testing of PT-06(c-80X) were actually for the current 50 aka the third squarden

==Block 2 is something else undergoing process in a secret place ?

==or it is true design phased of block 2 is passed now(recently as per the Dubai airshow) and the work is yet to start/started?


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## Areesh

fatman17 said:


> Air Commodore Virjee is a dedicated and brilliant Parsi officer in the PAF.



Oh. OK. Thanks. Definitely Air Commodore Virjee should be thanked by the Pakistani nation for his efforts and hard work.


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## Areesh

nabil_05 said:


> JFT WILL replace Mirages. Thats why it is being tested with C-80X missiles and and is already compliant with ZDK-03 AWACS. Confirmed! We at Karachi will soon see it flying daily in place of Mirages and F-7s



Now that's the best part. It was boring to see same Mirages everyday.


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## SBD-3

farhan_9909 said:


> and this also means that the testing of PT-06(c-80X) were actually for the current 50 aka the third squarden
> 
> ==Block 2 is something else undergoing process in a secret place ?
> 
> ==or it is true design phased of block 2 is passed now(recently as per the Dubai airshow) and the work is yet to start/started?


There appears to be a confusion among the posters, PT-06 is prototype for FC-1 the presence of YJ-83 on its wings suggest that there may have been a chance of JF-17 complementing JH-7As in martitime strike role. PAF's IMHO has its own separate testing and integration program. The only reason that we dont know anything about it is that there is no wall climbing party in Kamra...

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## fatman17

NAjAM Khan said:


> Thanks sir, any details about squadron's number? No.2 Sqn's F-7s are near the end of their service...if they aren't replaced then some of them have to be overhauled, 8 Sqn Mirages were inducted in late 70s they can be replaced. If No.7 Sqn is re-equipped with Thunders, then PAF has to change roles of at-least one Mirage squadron.



when the 2nd ZDK03 is delivered they will announce the squadron no - PAF hasnt decided which squadron will re-equip with the 3rd JFT but one thing is clear - all old F7s and Mirage sqdns will re-equip first.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

this is totally off topic (and i apologize)

what is the status of the Fantans? Roughly how many are still operational?


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## fatman17

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> this is totally off topic (and i apologize)
> 
> what is the status of the Fantans? Roughly how many are still operational?



all retired !!!

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## MZUBAIR

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> this is totally off topic (and i apologize)
> 
> what is the status of the Fantans? Roughly how many are still operational?



All retired and 2 SQD's of JF17 Block I operating on their place at PAF Base Peshawar


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## air marshal

*ACM Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed smiles as Air Marshal Shahid Lateef, the PAF DCAS (Operations), sign the AWACS Memorandom of Understanding, watched by personnel from China.*

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## nomi007

i hope Saab 2ooo is based at chaklala rawalpindi


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## Bratva

It took 5 years to turn ZDK-03 Dream into reality. I still remember in 2006 when i heard first on PTV that PAF has signed MoU with china to build AWACS jointly. I didn't believe at that moment this thing will actually become a reality and this MoU will be forgotten like all other signed but never we heard about them afterwards.

But look here, 5 years and ZDK-03 is in front of us, standing tall and proud and smiling at all those who didnt believe in him,

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> i hope Saab 2ooo is based at chaklala rawalpindi



thats not air base but peace of sh1t in public .if you visit it once


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## Areesh

mafiya said:


> It took 5 years to turn ZDK-03 Dream into reality. I still remember in 2006 when i heard first on PTV that PAF has signed MoU with china to build AWACS jointly. I didn't believe at that moment this thing will actually become a reality and this MoU will be forgotten like all other signed but never we heard about them afterwards.
> 
> But look here, 5 years and ZDK-03 is in front of us, standing tall and proud and smiling at all those who didnt believe in him,



You got to thank China for that. Not to forget PAF officers hard work and dedication like AC Virjee.

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## humza_313

SAAB - 2000 is based at Sargodha probably. And the ZDK-03 that have recently arrived from China are based at masroor. A friend captured it landing.


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## Hasnain2009

Imran Khan said:


> thats not air base but peace of sh1t in public .if you visit it once



u mean piece ?

---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------




MZUBAIR said:


> All retired and 2 SQD's of JF17 Block I operating on their place at PAF Base Peshawar



Any strategic reason behind it or you want to see it flying from top of your home..


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## VelocuR

Off-topic....






In case you haven't seen, I must say this is damn beautiful IAF's newest EMB 145 AWAC with many options compared to Saab 2000.

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## SBD-3

RaptorRX707 said:


> Off-topic....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In case you haven't seen, I must say this is damn beautiful IAF's newest EMB 145 AWAC with many options compared to Saab 2000.


Whats outside we can see....whats inside you never know...

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## Jango

A Saab-2000 is stationed at Chaklala AFB, but that is not the AWACS, it is only for training purposes.


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## [--Leo--]

mafiya said:


> It took 5 years to turn ZDK-03 Dream into reality. I still remember in 2006 when i heard first on PTV that PAF has signed MoU with china to build AWACS jointly. I didn't believe at that moment this thing will actually become a reality and this MoU will be forgotten like all other signed but never we heard about them afterwards.
> 
> But look here, 5 years and ZDK-03 is in front of us, standing tall and proud and smiling at all those who didnt believe in him,



just from where it is jointly develop?


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## Imran Khan

[--Leo--];2372595 said:


> just from where it is jointly develop?



go back pages hundreds of news items posted which use words JOINT DEVELOPMENT .


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## Dazzler

they seem to be checking the endurance because i have seen it twice since evening, lovely sight indeed. Patroling the coast. Forgot to capture a footage but since me and zdk-03both stationed at Karachi, soon i will . 

Mirages seem to be keeping an eye on it.


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## SQ8

nabil_05 said:


> they seem to be checking the endurance because i have seen it twice since evening, lovely sight indeed. Patroling the coast. Forgot to capture a footage but since me and zdk-03both stationed at Karachi, soon i will .
> 
> Mirages seem to be keeping an eye on it.



Mauripur is the place for it.. that is fairly certain.
Apparently the AF does not want to take any chances regarding the fate of the P-3C's befalling any of its crucial assets.


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## Jango

So they are at PAF base Masroor?

Very secure place from what I have heard.


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> So they are at PAF base Masroor?
> 
> Very secure place from what I have heard.



thats really big mess we need to relocate one by one our air bases out of cities man .its real pain i feel some thing like mehran can happen again .and we wake up after 3 times we face same mess.


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> thats really big mess we need to relocate one by one our air bases out of cities man .its real pain i feel some thing like mehran can happen again .and we wake up after 3 times we face same mess.



Definitely do.

Rawalpindi cantonment stands as a big big risk.

Dhamial AAB, right beside homes. But it will be a long process. But some Cantonments are made pretty distinctly from the civilian population.


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## Jango

uh, Pakistan AWACS is the name of the topic here.

---------- Post added at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 AM ----------

now to think of it, that thing does look really mean.


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## Storm Force

nuclear it does no harm to compare the PAF version to the indian version. ITS BREAKING NEWS nobody expected this to happen so soon.


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## Jango

Yhe Saab-2000 AWACS looks like a kid in front of it, the antennaes poking out, the added control surfaces, the two things at the back, the protruding rectangles at the sides.

BTW, why this much antennaes? The Pakistani AWACS does not have these much? Any person related to this field can help.

Mods, kindly don't delete this post, I asked a question here.


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## Mughal-Prince

nuclearpak said:


> Nabils post confirms my hunch.
> 
> Get a Midas there, and we will be really fine there TBH.



I didnt mention last week but I saw tail of IL-78 Midas at Mehran its hidden behind trees only top and a little part of tail was visible ... not remember the day precisely may be on Wednesday last week I wonder what its doing their and how it has landed their is that strip is big enough to handle it ... I can recognize it as I have seen to may of these flying from Jinnah International ... but commercial 1

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## houshanghai

thx to 007BRO FROM fyjs.cn

LINK;???,,???03??......| ?? - ??? - powered by phpwind.net

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## VelocuR

^Awesome, what's wrong with color or paint job?


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## Fieldmarshal

RaptorRX707 said:


> ^Awesome, what's wrong with color or paint job?



theris nothing wrong with the paint or color, it is exactly like its suppose to look


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## Jango

princeiftikharmirza said:


> I didnt mention last week but I saw tail of IL-78 Midas at Mehran its hidden behind trees only top and a little part of tail was visible ... not remember the day precisely may be on Wednesday last week I wonder what its doing their and how it has landed their is that strip is big enough to handle it ... I can recognize it as I have seen to may of these flying from Jinnah International ... but commercial 1



A IL-78 at Mehran? Seems unlikely mate.

The aircraft at PAF AFB Faisal arre only C-130's if i am not mistaken.

The big guns are at PAF Masroor.


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## DANGER-ZONE

houshanghai said:


> thx to 007BRO FROM fyjs.cn
> 
> LINK;???,,???03??......| ?? - ??? - powered by phpwind.net



WoW .... WoooooW .... look at that *11-002*, seems like second one is here too 

well i agree paint job is really bad ..

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## MJaa

This is the second ZDK-03 AEW&C Karakoram Eagle Aircraft in PAF color scheme


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## Donatello

nabil_05 said:


> they seem to be checking the endurance because i have seen it twice since evening, lovely sight indeed. Patroling the coast. Forgot to capture a footage but since me and zdk-03both stationed at Karachi, soon i will .
> 
> Mirages seem to be keeping an eye on it.



Why post them in Karachi? I mean, it's far from Indian Border and for the coast we have the P3-Cs of the Navy.

Better post em in the Middle, so they can respond to the western border, with increasing efficiency.


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## Dazzler

sorry for average quality because AWACS was in a hurry...

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## Imran Khan

thats show you save alot of money man aik mobile hi le leen sir acha sa

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## Areesh

This aircraft needs a new paint job.

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## Dazzler

Imran Khan said:


> thats show you save alot of money man aik mobile hi le leen sir acha sa



full zoom hai bhai is lye blurry pic ayi, and it flies very fast yaar


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## Mani2020

Another poor paint job by PAF should have worked with something better ....now its getting really irritating to see a cool bird ruined just because of an un-thoughtful paint job


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## SQ8

nabil_05 said:


> full zoom hai bhai is lye blurry pic ayi, and it flies very fast yaar



I wont be surprised by that..
The wing sweep tells me that this has a cruise speed higher than most turboprops.

---------- Post added at 06:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 AM ----------




Mani2020 said:


> Another poor paint job by PAF should have worked with something better ....now its getting really irritating to see a cool bird ruined just because of an un-thoughtful paint job



Perhaps the Paint job needed was one that would blend into the hazy skies of the region and the sea..Not one designed to attract attention.

Although it seems weathering is already taking its toll.


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## Mani2020

Santro said:


> I wont be surprised by that..
> The wing sweep tells me that this has a cruise speed higher than most turboprops.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps the Paint job needed was one that would blend into the hazy skies of the region and the sea..Not one designed to attract attention.
> 
> Although it seems weathering is already taking its toll.



I dont know how the brownish desert touch will help it blend into the hazy skies of the region and sea....or is that the sea or skies at Karachi have turned like desert?

And atleast if they wanted such colour scheme they should have gone for a bit cleaner configuration not like a 50 year old colour that has lost its life and just has smudges to display


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## fatman17

since its AOR will be near the coast-line, this color scheme blends into the background / horizon available which is hazy blue skies.


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## Mani2020

fatman17 said:


> since its AOR will be near the coast-line, this color scheme blends into the background / horizon available which is hazy blue skies.



Any light tone would have done it for them .... Even the P-3C orions had light greyish tone, or something like saab-2000 and even if they wanted to why not something clean rather than dull within dull tone

something like this 






or this


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## air marshal

nabil_05 said:


> full zoom hai bhai is lye blurry pic ayi, and it flies very fast yaar


Wow sir, Image details tells Huawei IDEOS set and its not bad one though. Please try next time.

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## Najam Khan

Great News! 
Mixture of Saab-2000 & ZDK-03 AWACS must be allotted to Northern and Southern Sectors. I think both of these examples will be inducted in No.13 Sqn. PAF ACM is eager to cut down squadron numbers...which is a good thing.



Mani2020 said:


> Any light tone would have done it for them .... Even the P-3C orions had light greyish tone, or something like saab-2000 and even if they wanted to why not something clean rather than dull within dull tone


 
Well i don't think so colour scheme is a big issue for such aircraft. Its never going to be anywhere near the front line...who cares whether a shiny aircraft is flying over 60,000ft or a dull coloured aircraft...what matters is whats inside

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## Mughal-Prince

nuclearpak said:


> A IL-78 at Mehran? Seems unlikely mate.
> 
> The aircraft at PAF AFB Faisal arre only C-130's if i am not mistaken.
> 
> The big guns are at PAF Masroor.



Yes bro I am considering that all but how can I deny what I have seen with my own eyes wide open  ...

( not only C-130 ... P3C, Atlantic, CN 235 and some times I do see F-7P and Mirage but rarely )


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## Jango

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Yes bro I am considering that all but how can I deny what I have seen with my own eyes wide open  ...



Was it a PAF IL-78 or some transport company IL-76.?

Strange, but could happen.


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## itaskol

why do you think its ist bad paint job?
but ALL of chinese fan in chinese forum think it is very good painted and better than any chinese plane!!!

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## Mughal-Prince

nuclearpak said:


> Was it a PAF IL-78 or some transport company IL-76.?
> 
> Strange, but could happen.



That was PAF IL-78 not a private freight career ...


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## Mughal-Prince

Mani2020 said:


>



Mani what happen to its tail ...


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## nomi007

what is the meaning of zdk


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## Donatello

Mani2020 said:


>





What the hell......did someone chew off the rudder?????


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## nomi007

why paf is not taking a competition of color selection of jets and planes
i think any 60 year old man select the color


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## 3030

Dear all there is nothing wrong with the paint job, most likely it has flown after lots of dew and dust on the fuselage and dirt on engine oil / hydraulics from the engine run ups. I am sure it just needs a wash before delivery.


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## Dazzler

there is nothing wrong with the paint job, i have seen it in bright sunlight too and and it matches the sky background. It is just that these pics were taken at almost dusk so it appears dark due to sunlight.


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## Mani2020

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Mani what happen to its tail ...



The tail got broken ....that was an incident and the pic was taken at that time...it is USN E-6 TACAMO aircraft

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## VelocuR

You can see bottom under nose, there is wave lines (dark grey or something) which look more stupid. Smaller serial number and Pakistan flag in wrong place of the tail. PAF can't afford high quality paint job ? 

Our first impression on ZDK-03 is ruined. 

See the first delivery to India, very neat and proper design greyish.






Not only paint job, India Phalcons AWACS including newest EMB145 is advantages in both quality and quantity more options over PAF AWACs


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## VelocuR

India EMB145 impressive





Pakistan white Saab 2000


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## Mani2020

nabil_05 said:


> there is nothing wrong with the paint job, i have seen it in bright sunlight too and and it matches the sky background. It is just that these pics were taken at almost dusk so it appears dark due to sunlight.



Its not just about getting a bird its about presenting it too... i know it seems odd to consider something for its colours and paint job when that thing clearly is just designed for your defence needs...but still there is some thought that needs to be put in ....

If you look any airforce around may it be USAF or anyone there is a thought process put in the colour scheme which not only make it adjust to the environment but also appeals to the eyes ..... I never say that PAF should not try to adjust to the environment in which that aircraft is finally going to be deployed but atleast improve the quality of the paint...

Russian paint their aircrafts in most fancy way they can take any example may it be mig-35 or su-30s or whatever it may seem to be a joke but these things attract many even if they want just to be rational still there is an inner appeal.... Russia sold su-30s to many countries on the basis of cobra manoeuvres it can perform...in almost every air show there aircrafts were doing this ...although they are of no use in modern battle ...but still they attracted customers ...now it may seem stupid that they got impressed with something that doesnt belong to war but still stupidness is what we all posses in some shares...

ZDK-03 may not be our home grown bird but still it would have been made alot better ....going but this logic that a bird is just for war and no need to take fancy steps with colour schemes and all that means USAF and even IAF is just foolish to spend on so much time and money on colour schemes 

The indian AWAC though have a grey tone to adjust to its environment but still a lot of thought is put into it with sleek and appealing edges and not just all about grey for the sake of grey

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## Dazzler

Unlike saab 2000, EMB-145 lacks wingtip points so it has WARTS for ESM sensors, only difference is the additional control surfaces on EMB but saab is a bigger plane with much more endurance. EMB-145 will have to refuel twice to achieve that. A suggestion for people, do not go on eye candy all the time because too much sweet causes diabetes.

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## Jango

The ruskies give their planes teeth and all sorts of intimidating paint work. Like dragon faces and all.

Paint jobs have never been a trait of the Pak defence services. The PIA, and Army aviation helis. Some are painted very well, but some are poor.

If you ever get close to a Puma, the old ones with the three color paint, most are not well finished off.


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## Emmie

Will captivating paint help augment ZDK capability? An aircraft is supposed to perform its role and not to attract the audience for its beauty..

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## timberwolf

Q: what aircraft is this ? it looks different from Y8 seen earlier. is it an upgraded Y8 or the new Y9... ? pardon my ignorance folks. 

Speaking of paintjobs, Personally I really like the new Paf paint schemes on its aircrafts. Not the most aesthetically pleasing , but they work as superb camoflague, considering our local atmosphere. 

At first i didnt like the dull, lite sky blue camo on Jf17s ( the color schemes on F7pg and F16s are my fav. from paf, add in the low-vis grey camo of usaf ) , but seeing the way it blends with the lite blue background of Pakistani skies , which unlike westren countries , are seldom clouded, it makes perfect sense. 

Same goes for this Low-vis Muddy brown camo ( if i may call it ). Seeing it first on Il78, it didnt leave that much of a good taste in my mouth, but later seeing a pic of Midas refuelling our Mirages on a backdrop of an almost similar shade of brown terrain, left me admiring at the prudent choice of the Paf. ( im on mobile rt. now, cant post the pic, but someone might have an idea of the one i m talking about . )

And considering modern day fighters are optimisesd to fly fast and fly high, while these bigger Refuellers and Awacs will be flying comparatively lower ( 10,000 m ? , correct me if i m wrong ). so them aggressors ( if it ever comes to it ) will have to look down for these brown planes against OUR muddy brown terrain in most areas of Sindh & Punjab, almost all of pakistan except part of KPK, and gilgit baltistan.

so i think these paintjobs do what they are supposed to do, camoflague. Eye candy or not, if it works , it works. 

if only someone cud post that pic for me, u could all see what im talking about.....


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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> The ruskies give their planes teeth and all sorts of intimidating paint work. Like dragon faces and all.
> 
> Paint jobs have never been a trait of the Pak defence services. The PIA, and Army aviation helis. Some are painted very well, but some are poor.
> 
> If you ever get close to a Puma, the old ones with the three color paint, most are not well finished off.



They are also extremely ineffective as camo. Most professional services in the world now opt for Camo that is combat effective rather than showy.
A Dragon or Teeth would add to the aircraft's visibility from a dist and allow an adversary to judge where the nose is pointing in ACM.



timberwolf said:


> Q: what aircraft is this ? it looks different from Y8 seen earlier. is it an upgraded Y8 or the new Y9... ? pardon my ignorance folks.



Based off a Y-9..


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## Emmie

timberwolf said:


> Q: what aircraft is this ? it looks different from Y8 seen earlier. is it an upgraded Y8 or the new Y9... ? pardon my ignorance folks.



Platform is Y-8F-600, a new variant of Y8 with a redesigned fuselage..

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## Jango

Santro said:


> They are also extremely ineffective as camo. Most professional services in the world now opt for Camo that is combat effective rather than showy.
> A Dragon or Teeth would add to the aircraft's visibility from a dist and allow an adversary to judge where the nose is pointing in ACM.



Off course Dragon teeth would be more visible. Hence the low visibility camo. But for some occasions it may not do any harm. But they are also costly to do.


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## Emmie

Self delete


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## ahussains

I am also interested in the accurate figures of AWACS ?


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## Major Sam

i think now PAf have total 4, 2 saab + 2 ZDK


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## Peregrine

A noob question, Can these AWACS receive data from satellites while in flight & can ZDK-03 share data with Eireye ?


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## Donatello

nuclearpak said:


> The ruskies give their planes teeth and all sorts of intimidating paint work. Like dragon faces and all.
> 
> Paint jobs have never been a trait of the Pak defence services. The PIA, and Army aviation helis. Some are painted very well, but some are poor.
> 
> If you ever get close to a Puma, the old ones with the three color paint, most are not well finished off.




Hey,

The paint job is primarily done to give the metal components an added layer of protection against abrasions/rust/corrosion. It is one of the main engineering tasks with any thing aerospace as the aircraft might have to service in hot and dry zones and then in hot and humid coastal zones (like Karachi).

Painting for eye candy has no added advantage and PAF does that where required. The k-8s are bright colored as they are aerobatic planes for the Sherdils. PAF has painted the Mirage in a variety of camouflage in the past so they can always paint the AWACs again in the future.

I think there is a pic of one of the P3Cs of the PN having a painted tail......and then some C-130s of the PAF. Paint jobs are done when required. Right now the bare minimum grey hue would do as painting all sorts of cartoons over it wont make it any more effective.

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## VelocuR

nabil_05 said:


> Unlike saab 2000, EMB-145 lacks wingtip points so it has WARTS for ESM sensors, only difference is the additional control surfaces on EMB but saab is a bigger plane with much more endurance. EMB-145 will have to refuel twice to achieve that. A suggestion for people, do not go on eye candy all the time because too much sweet causes diabetes.



Lol, good point Nabil. Some of us don't appreciate the poor paint of PAF and lack skills. Let's say we develop this AWACs for the 5 years plan without paint. Again, we can't underestimate IAF AWACs including Israel technology and others. 

I have lost faith in PAF which didn't do protect Pakistan due to leaders. So PAF AWACs will detect US aggressions near borders or NATO attacks despite Saab 2000 absences...... InshAllah?


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## krash

Ill have to seriously disagree on that. The Paf has always had pretty nice paint schemes for its birds, for all practical and aesthetic purposes (mind you the fancy sharks and tigers are not only futile but counterproductive on these aircraft). At least Iv always liked them. From the close up pictures of the Thunder id even say that the quality of the paint job is very good as well. The Karakoram Eagle is no different. The brown tinge in the Il-78 MIDAS is a little but disappointing but its still not that bad.

Some have gone on praising the IAF's color scheme on its Il-78s when all they have done is painted them in their generic, monotone shade of gray. Whats so special about that? Where are the aesthetics in that? Its the exact same case with their MKIs and Fulcrums as well. 

MKI:






IAF Mig-29:





IAF Il-78:





Ask the Chinese they'll tell how their birds have always looked better in PAF's color schemes.

Whats so bad about these schemes?:























RaptorRX707 said:


> Lol, good point Nabil. Some of us don't appreciate the poor paint of PAF and lack skills. Let's say we develop this AWACs for the 5 years plan without paint. Again, we can't underestimate IAF AWACs including Israel technology and others.
> 
> *I have lost faith in PAF which didn't do protect Pakistan due to leaders. So PAF AWACs will detect US aggressions near borders or NATO attacks despite Saab 2000 absences...... InshAllah?*



Sir your post does not make any sense. And as for the bold part: we need to grow up and stop looking at everything in seclusion and absolute terms. The real world is tortuous, the game is twisted and thats how it must be played. We cant become Iran and act ingenuously. Learn to differentiate between can/cannot, will/will not and should/should not. This is what I dislike about our people. They act senselessly when it comes to international affairs (and pretty much everything else as well). All they know is how to shout on impulse seeing only what is on the surface. They care not to pay any heed to what might lay deep beneath the surface. They act like children.

Timberwolf is this the picture you meant?:

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## VelocuR

krash said:


> Ill have to seriously disagree on that. The Paf has always had pretty nice paint schemes for its birds, for all practical and aesthetic purposes (mind you the fancy sharks and tigers are not only futile but counterproductive on these aircraft). At least Iv always liked them. From the close up pictures of the Thunder id even say that the quality of the paint job is very good as well. The Karakoram Eagle is no different. The brown tinge in the Il-78 MIDAS is a little but disappointing but its still not that bad.
> 
> Some have gone on praising the IAF's color scheme on its Il-78s when all they have done is painted them in their generic, monotone shade of gray. Whats so special about that? Where are the aesthetics in that? Its the exact same case with their MKIs and Fulcrums as well.
> 
> 
> Timberwolf is this the picture you meant?:



Yeah, we paid for it, it should be proper and complete jobs overall.






By this leaking, it look very clear professionally at the moment. 

Then flying...






Maybe the environment ruined the image of this flying ZDK-03 or uncomplete paint job on the tail parts. This waves styles is very much similar to Chinese AWACs (blue).






Yes, you notice some of our JF-17 have already rush or some brown spots. Rush is rapidly growing in some of the JF-17s. Yeah, it is common and cheap materials/low costs. Most of these example rarely in F-16s examples, engineers must know the rush issues or it wouldn't last longer. 




> Your post does not make any sense. And as for the bold part, mate grow up and stop looking at everything in seclusion and absolute terms. The real world is tortuous, the game is twisted and thats how it must be played. We cant become Iran and act ingenuously. Learn to differentiate between can/cannot, will/will not and should/should not. This is what I dislike about our people. They act senselessly when it comes to international affairs (and pretty much everything else as well). All they know is how to shout on impulse seeing only what is on the surface. They care not to pay any heed to what might lay deep beneath the surface. They act like children.



It is depend on what your pointview. No I didn't ask Pakistan to become children of Iran and I know they recently act like immature behaviours by showing drowned US drones (RQ-170) in the basketball court and American skulls bones. No, I didn't ask Pakistan should do this but I am saying Pakistan already accept *4000 soldiers + 28 martyers and 40000 civilian death*, we can't do anything to protect our country which mean our people killed themselves instead shouting or provocative actions. Yeah, this is smart way to let people die themselves, the estimated number is going up. 

PAF responded to Indian intrusions quickly without authority permission while can't respond to US/NATO intrusion, wtf. We are no different superiors than Arabs counterparts, pretty much we are same levels as them. By adding new AWACs, it wouldn't make much differences where everyone cheered for. PAF Saab 2000 was absent during 2-5 hours NATO slaughtering martyers, I always thought AWACS is always deployed in emergency to detect some powerful hiding devils. Don't get me wrong, I admire Pakistan but they are very lacking in the many of the fields, admit it. 

Sadly most of our _hard working_ money we paid goes to PAF requirements instead high educations for many poor people. So the paint job is not finished ? I think, let's wait for more pictures coming soon.


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## krash

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yeah, we paid for it, it should be proper and complete jobs overall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By this leaking, it look very clear professionally at the moment.
> 
> Then flying...
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the environment ruined the image of this flying ZDK-03 or uncomplete paint job on the tail parts. This waves styles is very much similar to Chinese AWACs (blue).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you notice some of our JF-17 have already rush or some brown spots. Rush is rapidly growing in some of the JF-17s. Yeah, it is common and cheap materials/low costs. Most of these example rarely in F-16s examples, engineers must know the rush issues or it wouldn't last longer.



The wavy pattern is hardly visible. C'mon, now you guys are just being unreasonable. Furthermore thats not rust. Its the paint showing fatigue and theres nothing unusual about it, not in the JF-17 nor in the ZDK-03. These aircraft fly at unforgiving speeds. Just the heat caused by the wind resistance is extreme let alone the friction itself ripping the paint off. We cant have our birds painted every month or so. Not just because we have a tight budget but also because it is unnecessary and useless. Its not just our aircraft or just our airforce. Take a look at the following pictures:

*US:*
















*IAF:*





















(The MKI was flying a display at an airshow)

**continued below**

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## houshanghai

According to CDF,The paint coating of this bird maybe a PSed.The second ZDK03 of PAF is still yellow one now.

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## krash

*The Russians:*
















*The Slovaks:*











*The Rafale:*










RaptorRX707 said:


> It is depend on what your pointview. No I didn't ask Pakistan to become children of Iran and I know they recently act like immature behaviours by showing drowned US drones (RQ-170) in the basketball court and American skulls bones. No, I didn't ask Pakistan should do this but I am saying Pakistan already accept *4000 soldiers + 28 martyers and 40000 civilian death*, we can't do anything to protect our country which mean our people killed themselves instead shouting or provocative actions. Yeah, this is smart way to let people die themselves, the estimated number is going up.
> 
> PAF responded to Indian intrusions quickly without authority permission while can't respond to US/NATO intrusion, wtf. We are no different superiors than Arabs counterparts, pretty much we are same levels as them. By adding new AWACs, it wouldn't make much differences where everyone cheered for. PAF Saab 2000 was absent during 2-5 hours NATO slaughtering martyers, I always thought AWACS is always deployed in emergency to detect some powerful hiding devils. Don't get me wrong, I admire Pakistan but they are very lacking in the many of the fields, admit it.
> 
> Sadly most of our _hard working_ money we paid goes to PAF requirements instead high educations for many poor people. So the paint job is not finished ? I think, let's wait for more pictures coming soon.


 
Mate by no means did I ever ask anyone not to do anything about the incursion. What must be done is what Im arguing about. The US is not India and India is no US. There's a hell of a difference between the two. The two responses must be different too. A straight punch to the American jaw would have been idiotic. There are other ways to make them pay. Trust me nobody gets more angry at the loss of a Pakistani soldier's life than the Pakistani army itself. Its something they take on their egos. There are other ways of making the Yanks bleed and still not let our selves get hit back in return. These situations are never to be dealt with in anger or without thought. One needs to be clever to hit someone a lot more powerful. 

Furthermore when you are attacked by an ally your first impression is that its a mistake. Then when that said ally pretends to retreat upon your calls of friendly fire you take the bait and are fooled. Then when they return you are caught off guard again. When it finally becomes clear whats actually happening you start carefully deliberating on what to do, keeping in mind that the said ally is the US. One would not want to sacrifice more lives for a decision that is taken hastily and emotionally. Again one needs to be clever in such situations. We cant go charging at them with pitchforks and torches. What do you think would hurt them more a heli and a couple of pilots or the whole Afghan operation put in jeopardy by the closing of the supply routes? Next time when they come over there will be Anzas waiting for them with "self defense" and a white flag painted on them. But even that is not the only option we have......if you catch my drift.

ps: Us Pakistanis cant really play the "our money" card....well at least not the 98% of us who have never paid any taxes.

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## VelocuR

^^ I appreciate it, thank you, krash. Interesting thoughtful and remarkable posts which help clear doubts. 

You will be next Think-Tank.

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## krash

RaptorRX707 said:


> ^^ I appreciate it, thank you, krash. Interesting thoughtful and remarkable posts which help clear doubts.
> 
> You will be next Think-Tank.



Sir I am but at your service. Its refreshing and encouraging when somebody is willing to argue with you with listening ears and an open mind. Most of us lack that.

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## VelocuR

krash said:


> Sir I am but at your service. Its refreshing and encouraging when somebody is willing to argue with you with listening ears and an open mind. Most of us lack that.



Lol, when someone made excellent points, we can't argue with them. Unfortunately Pakistan today are fighting over the arguments without reasonable reasons or sense. I have said same thing to them. We should be open listen, open minds, and try understand other pointviews instead point-scores or shot them due to intolerances. 

I am just angry at the loss of Pakistani martyers and even incomplete paint job, lol. I love China and its people always!

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## Dazzler

krash said:


> *The Russians:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Slovaks:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Rafale:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mate by no means did I ever ask anyone not to do anything about the incursion. What must be done is what Im arguing about. The US is not India and India is no US. There's a hell of a difference between the two. The two responses must be different too. A straight punch to the American jaw would have been idiotic. There are other ways to make them pay. Trust me nobody gets more angry at the loss of a Pakistani soldier's life than the Pakistani army itself. Its something they take on their egos. There are other ways of making the Yanks bleed and still not let our selves get hit back in return. These situations are never to be dealt with in anger or without thought. One needs to be clever to hit someone a lot more powerful.
> 
> Furthermore when you are attacked by an ally your first impression is that its a mistake. Then when that said ally pretends to retreat upon your calls of friendly fire you take the bait and are fooled. Then when they return you are caught off guard again. When it finally becomes clear whats actually happening you start carefully deliberating on what to do, keeping in mind that the said ally is the US. One would not want to sacrifice more lives for a decision that is taken hastily and emotionally. Again one needs to be clever in such situations. We cant go charging at them with pitchforks and torches. What do you think would hurt them more a heli and a couple of pilots or the whole Afghan operation put in jeopardy by the closing of the supply routes? Next time when they come over there will be Anzas waiting for them with "self defense" and a white flag painted on them. But even that is not the only option we have......if you catch my drift.
> 
> ps: Us Pakistanis cant really play the "our money" card....well at least not the 98% of us who have never paid any taxes.




excellent points! despite all the hush hush, they are paying 400$ for a gallon because of us

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## Dazzler

double post....


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## fatman17

Peregrine said:


> A noob question, Can these AWACS receive data from satellites while in flight & can ZDK-03 share data with Eireye ?



erieye and ZDK cannot 'talk' to each other at this point but PAF is working on a 'home-made' remedy to link both.

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## nomi007

same like f-16s and jf-17 thunder cannot talk or share data
but paf software experts are working on this


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## Sapper

Peregrine said:


> A noob question, Can these AWACS receive data from satellites while in flight & can ZDK-03 share data with Eireye ?



Dear,

Not a noob question at all.

Satelite links are required by AEW&C aircrafts that have to operate in large airspaces, to allow them to stay in contact with the ground C4I-Ground-Station if it opreates too far. Larger countries like China and India require this because that would require too many ground relay stations to ensure AEW&Cs remain in comm-link with C4I-base, even inside their airspace. Do remember that the overall battle scenario remains in co-ordinated control of C4I (command, control, communications, computers) station, and only local mission command remains at AEW&Cs discretion.

Satelile links are very weak, and comparatively slow. Out of a 1000 watt signal transmitted from Geo-Sat, only micro-Watts reach the aircraft and vice versa, and sometimes ionosphere also play havoc on those signals. 1000 watt is just example, actual signals are much weaker. It would require only a 100 watt (approx) EW-transmitter inside off 300km range to overtake signal strength and scrable the comm chanel. Instead, ground station signals are much much powerful and too strong to be threatened by EW, unless foe's EW is flying right beside you. In cluttered EW environment, Sat-link are the first to fail. Also, Sat-links have slow and smaller data-rates, and cause almost 1-sec delay for each transmission/command.

To have a Sat-Link on an aircraft, a semi-dome shaped structure is placed on top of fuselage, which holds the moving dish which is responcible to track and relay signals to satelites. This dome (Black Bulge) is visible in these image of Indian and Chinese AEW&C, but not in PAF Saab2000 and ZDK-3, indicating that they have sat-com, and we dont, unless i am mistaken.

PLAAF - KJ-2000





IAF - Phalcon





IAF - Emb145





PAF - Saab2000





PAF - ZDK-03






In short, PAF bases its C4I respocibilities on ground relays because of very small airspace, while China and India bases it on Sat-links owing to their very large airspce.

Regards,
Sapper

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## Sapper

Dear Storm Force,

I dont want to quarrel, but the stupidity of your argument amazes me. Does your Su30 require Sat-Link to communicate with its Awacs ... if thats the case ... please show me where the sat dish for Su30 is placed. You have copy pasted a 10,000 word bullsh.it article with only a single line referring to link; it says and i quote, *The aircraft communicates, via its data link, with Air Defense HQ*, even then it is referring to data-link, not specifically sat-link. I was explaining to someone why Sat-link are there on AEW&C and not all aircrafts, and you start blabbering BS regading rotating Pulse dopler radome vs Static 360 AESA radome, even bolded the parts making it as if the radome is responcible for the satlink. Do you not understand what the topic of my post was, or do i need to say it again ? its aout SATELITE-LINK



> Both indian AWACS have direct real time LINK UP with their fighter planes. THEY ARE ABLE to communicate immediately.
> I have seen a comparison made where by A PHALCON AWACS with phased array radar passes data in 3-4 seconds.
> THE SAME DATA passed by a Pakistan AWACS having to go the GCC first then to fighter takes 30-40 seconds.



You gotta be joking me ... do you even know what you are talking about here ? Do AEW&Cs require ground link to operate, Not at all. They are independant and can communicate with another fighter flying beside it using LINK-16 (for example),via its VHF/UHF antennae. All planes flying ~450km distance can communicate with it at reasonable data speed. Infact its the ground based C4I, i.e. your army-chief, your airforce-chief, your DGMO, you sector-commander, your base-command who are waiting inside a bunker waiting for AEW&Cs to tell them what the hell is going on out there, thousands of km away. For example, an AEW&Cs flying at Arabian sea will relay its realtime picture with multiple relay stations along the coast, which will send info to all three Air-HQs, where decisions to deploy air assets are being made. BUT, the fighters that are in same sector, i.e. Arabian sea, will directly communicate with AEW&C controllers to get target designations and engagement scenarios. Now GCI's will use this picture as well, and co-ordinate launch of additional-fighters and will be responcible for their initial vectoring to the point that they enter the engagement zone. They may still remain under GCI control if within GCI range, or handed over to AEW&C operators, if GCI link with AEW&C is weak/scrabled due to very large distance.

Coming back to Sat-Link, have you ever noticed that during solar storms Satellite Channels get blurry, scrambled or sometimes totally lost, but Terrestial-Broadcasts like PTV/Doordarshan have no effect. The reason is that Land based transmitter have practically unlimited power source, and they usually transmit KiloWatts of signal strength over only 100s of km, while satelites have very limited power source and only transmit <1000 watt signal over 36,000 km. Which one is easier to Jam ? and this is only one way (like GPS), two way comm is even more fragile.

Please stick to Sat-link discussion, i have no time to argue about the Wikipedia copy/pasted comparison of 360 Phalcon AESA with 70's era pulse doppler AWACS.

Lastly the reason why Israel uses sat link and Pakistan doesnt. Simple, we want to defend our country while remaining INSIDE our country, while they usually are found WANDERing about in enemy airspaces.

Regards,
Sapper

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## SQ8

This thread is ONLY for discussions on Pakistani AWACS..
No comparisons here.

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## SQ8

The other reason why Pakistan does not have Sat links on its aircraft was the delay in setting up a dedicated Sat-comms channel on a safe satellite.


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## wangrong



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## hatf IX

wangrong said:


>


one countless thanks bro . . .

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## Mazharrafiq

can't get that


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## Storm Force

Are we correct in assuming that having TUBROPROP platforms PAF is severly limiting both the speed and the range /endurance time of theses awacs.

ALSO surely a turbo prop is far more vulnerable to a potential air to air missle threat esp some thing like the NOVATOR ramjet missle RS172 novatar which will equip both the su30mki and pak fa in the future


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## Donatello

Storm Force said:


> Are we correct in assuming that having TUBROPROP platforms PAF is severly limiting both the speed and the range /endurance time of theses awacs.
> 
> ALSO surely a turbo prop is far more vulnerable to a potential air to air missle threat esp some thing like the NOVATOR ramjet missle RS172 novatar which will equip both the su30mki and pak fa in the future



Seriously?

Your lack of knowledge gets beaten on other threads and you come here to post BS again?

I mean, turbo prop? May i ask if IAFs Phalcon is flying supersonic? Or how a SAM or Air to Air missile cannot hit a Jet engine aircraft but can hit a turbo prop?

Man, seriously, is there any more low you guys can fall to....to bash Pakistan's new AWACs?


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## Storm Force

PENUMBRA

ITS NOT BASHING its not a personal insult 

I have knowledge and eyes.

Turbo props was a COST savings excercise we know that

BUT jet awacs have greater range. flexibility endurance,,,,,

OR are we saying thats INCORRECT we are all wrong


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## Sapper

Storm Force said:


> Are we correct in assuming that having TUBROPROP platforms PAF is severly limiting both the speed and the range /endurance time of theses awacs.
> 
> ALSO surely a turbo prop is far more vulnerable to a potential air to air missle threat esp some thing like the NOVATOR ramjet missle RS172 novatar which will equip both the su30mki and pak fa in the future



Dear,

Turbo-props give much more endurance that any jet ever can only hope for. Is 9.5 hr of endurance of Saab2000-Erieye less than 6~7 hr endurance of IL76-Phalcon ? Besides ZDK-03 is also bigger and carries more fuel and might have even more endurance.
Just for reference : Indian AWACS Moving Forward on 2 Fronts Paragraph: Feb 12/09

Besides, Turboprops generate lesser EM interference than the larger Jet counterparts.

The only downside is speed. But remember that if a missile is fired at an AEW&C aircraft at 4~5 Mach, it will take less than 2 minutes to impact. Having 200kph of additional speed will only carry you 3 miles further in that time, so your notion of jet being capable of outrunning a missile is outrageous.

Larger speed is also a downside for an AEW&C aircraft if it is required to keep-station, requiring more frequent maneuvering to remain in the same location.

Regards,
Sapper

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## fatman17

Sapper said:


> Dear,
> 
> Turbo-props give much more endurance that any jet ever can only hope for. Is 9.5 hr of endurance of Saab2000-Erieye less than 6~7 hr endurance of IL76-Phalcon ? Besides ZDK-03 is also bigger and carries more fuel and might have even more endurance.
> Just for reference : Indian AWACS Moving Forward on 2 Fronts Paragraph: Feb 12/09
> 
> Besides, Turboprops generate lesser EM interference than the larger Jet counterparts.
> 
> The only downside is speed. But remember that if a missile is fired at an AEW&C aircraft at 4~5 Mach, it will take less than 2 minutes to impact. Having 200kph of additional speed will only carry you 3 miles further in that time, so your notion of jet being capable of outrunning a missile is outrageous.
> 
> Larger speed is also a downside for an AEW&C aircraft if it is required to keep-station, requiring more frequent maneuvering to remain in the same location.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



besides both erieye and ZDK are equipped with 'flares' to confuse the incoming rounds - for whatever its worth!


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## DANGER-ZONE

danger-zone said:


> *Here's Erieye departing after Dubai air show. Clear Side view*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United Arab Emirates, November 17, 2011


Last image i posted.

*Now two more pictures of Saab Erieye - Yet Taxing slowly, see the background and Emirates Airliners.*











side by side *DREAM LINER*

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## ziaulislam

also to add saab 2000 is considered one of the fastest turboprop aircrafts. it was design to compete with jet aircrafts but retaining the efficiency of turboprop


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Have we recieved all 4 Sweedish and 4 Chinese variants 

I think we have 2 Sweedish and 1 Chinese , or have we got all 8


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## muhammadharis92

i 've seen the ZDK-03 AWACS about 9-10 times today flying above my home at low altitude(400-500meters) ,whoever saying that the color scheme is not good,it seems brilliant to me perfectly matching our environment!! I was too excited seeing the big bird,it was really beutiful!!!
but I have just one question in my mind why the Aircraft is flying that much is there any exercise going-on.....
Although i live in khi,north of khi.!! plzz Ans. my Q.

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## SQ8

muhammadharis92 said:


> but I have just one question in my mind why the Aircraft is flying that much is there any exercise going-on.....
> .



Part of the work up to operational readiness.
The Aircraft is undergoing tests with the Air-def C4I.. and with the assets it will control.


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## muhammadharis92

"The Aircraft is undergoing tests with the Air-def C4I"
Sorry but m still a noob in defence thing could'nt understand ur terminologies!! sOry :X


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## DANGER-ZONE

muhammadharis92 said:


> "The Aircraft is undergoing tests with the Air-def C4I"
> Sorry but m still a noob in defence thing could'nt understand ur terminologies!! sOry :X



where did you spot it at Masroor or Faisal. ??


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Wasnt there a news about KSA financing another Saab 2000 Erieye for PAF? tht means we have 9 AWACS not 8.


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## muhammadharis92

i spotted on my roof in my home,BTW i live in North khi!

---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 PM ----------

i wish i had a camera at that time....i even can read the serial no....trust me!!


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## fatman17

muhammadharis92 said:


> i 've seen the ZDK-03 AWACS about 9-10 times today flying above my home at low altitude(400-500meters) ,whoever saying that the color scheme is not good,it seems brilliant to me perfectly matching our environment!! I was too excited seeing the big bird,it was really beutiful!!!
> but I have just one question in my mind why the Aircraft is flying that much is there any exercise going-on.....
> Although i live in khi,north of khi.!! plzz Ans. my Q.



PN is conductiong air/sea excercises - maybe the ZDK03 is involved


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## DANGER-ZONE

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Wasnt there a news about KSA financing another Saab 2000 Erieye for PAF? tht means we have 9 AWACS not 8.



Dude hold on let us receive our own 4 Erieye and 4 Karakuram Eagles first, then will talk about the SA one.

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 PM ----------




muhammadharis92 said:


> i spotted on my roof in my home,BTW i live in North khi!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 PM ----------
> 
> i wish i had a camera at that time....i even can read the serial no....trust me!!



North Karachi ... then it must be going towards Masror AB .. i know very much about their Landing routes.


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## muhammadharis92

North Karachi ... then it must be going towards Masror AB .. i know very much about their Landing routes.[/QUOTE]

Its was flying at the route which is used by mirage and f-6...they used to fly above my home too but quite high altitude,i noticed one thing too that today no mirage or other aircraft flew above my home..seems interesting!!


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## Imran Khan

muhammadharis92 said:


> North Karachi ... then it must be going towards Masror AB .. i know very much about their Landing routes.



Its was flying at the route which is used by mirage and f-6...they used to fly above my home too but quite high altitude,i noticed one thing too that today no mirage or other aircraft flew above my home..seems interesting!![/QUOTE]

f-6 or f-7 dear i think f-6 are ret since 2002. only 9 FT-6 are in quetta


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## Major Sam

wats the total no. of awacs paksitan have now and for covering over total need and by keeping emergency needs in front , how many awacs should we have? can anybody tell in detail


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## Imran Khan

usama waqas said:


> wats the total no. of awacs paksitan have now and for covering over total need and by keeping emergency needs in front , how many awacs should we have? can anybody tell in detail



3 or 4 saab and 1 ZDK total are 4 i think so 4th saab not yet arrived .but dear its need some time to make them fully operational it need more work .its not simple job we need atleast more 1 year to use mature awacs systems .


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## Jango

You people are saying that 4 AWACS are being received, 4 SAAB-2000 AWACS, but isn't the fourth SAAB-2000 only for flying training and not for AWACS use, or is it the fifth one? Or will it be changed to AWACS later?

As i understand it, it is 4 SAAB-2000 aircraft, 3 AWACS platforms, the other one is for training only.


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> You people are saying that 4 AWACS are being received, 4 SAAB-2000 AWACS, but isn't the fourth SAAB-2000 only for flying training and not for AWACS use, or is it the fifth one? Or will it be changed to AWACS later?
> 
> As i understand it, it is 4 SAAB-2000 aircraft, 3 AWACS platforms, the other one is for training only.



yaar damn its fifth one 4 are awacs and one is for training . originally it was 6 AWACS and 1 for training but letter reduce number to 4 and adopt ZDK-03 . Saab 2000 (serial# J019) was delivered to PAF in 2008 and is used for training

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## Jango

thanks for the info.

So it is 5 SAAB 2000, but 4 AWACS.


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> thanks for the info.
> 
> So it is 5 SAAB 2000, but 4 AWACS.



yes yes yes yes at the end some one got it  










1
Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
Construction Number: 019
Year Built: 1995
PAF Serial Number: J019
Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registration F-GMVB)

Saab 2000 (c/n 019) was delivered to PAF as standard Saab 2000 in September 2008 with serial# J019 and it is used for training and transport flights.

2
Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
Construction Number: 025
Year Built:1995
Previous Operators: Deutsche BA (registratoin D-ADSE), Regional Airlines (registration F-GTSE), Lithuanian Airlines (registration LY-SBC)

Saab 2000 (c/n 025) will be converted to Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C and is expected to be delivered to PAF with serial# 10025.

3
Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
Construction Number: 040
Year Built: 1996
Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registration F-GMVE),

Saab 2000 (c/n 040) will be converted to Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C and is expected to be delivered to PAF with serial# 10040.

4
Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
Construction Number: 045
Year Built: 1997
Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registrations F-GMVF, LX-RAC, F-GMVU), Lithuanian Airlines (registration LY-SBW)

Saab 2000 (c/n 045) has been converted to Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C and I guess it's the first Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C delivered to PAF with serial# 10045 in December 2009.

5
Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
Construction Number: 049
Year Built: 1997
Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registration F-GMVG)

Saab 2000 (c/n 049) has been converted to Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C and is expected to be delivered to PAF with serial# 10049.

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## Imran Khan

ab to samajh jao zalimo  or kya chayee? ya

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## Imran Khan

our training SAAB-2000 was F-GMVB













our awacs in old services

1st AWACS was D-ADSE






2nd AWACS was F-GMVE







3rd AWACS number was F-GMVU







4th AWACS number F-GMVG

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## Jango

our AWACS were second hand?

Never knew that!


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## muhammadharis92

our AWACS were second hand?

Never knew that!

Me too


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## Imran Khan

oyee kaaky AWACS is new jets was used by air france on lease .so they got back after lease and convert it AWACS with upgrade the jets simple deal .


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## gambit

nuclearpak said:


> our AWACS were second hand?
> 
> Never knew that!


Good:

- Let the manufacturer and initial user(s) work out the bugs, hardware and software.

Bad:

- Documentation. In many cases, documentation of modifications, either planned and systematic or ad-hoc from aircraft to aircraft and from version to version, can be spotty and many would wash their hands of problems created by inadequate documentation or sloppy work. The secondary buyer ended up with the frustrating task of sorting out what is planned and systematic and adhere to them, finding out the ad-hoc mods and get them to conform to specs, and document everything all over again because now he has the responsibility of maintaining what he bought.

This is not widespread but it does occur and enough in frequency that the secondary buyer often demand some kind of compensation in the event the modifications are beyond his technical scope or even return possibility in the purchase contract.

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## air marshal



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## Emmie

nuclearpak said:


> our AWACS were second hand?
> 
> Never knew that!



Yeah, Platforms (Saab-2000) were second hand, Air France was operating them.... But Erieye, the actual thing which counts was brand new... Dabba Pack you know.


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## rohailmalhi

So Pakistan purchased the Saab-2000 or they are still at lease from SAAB. 

haha............. Yeh na ho kay Saab wale aa jaien and tell u , Bahi G antenna utharo aapna hamray Jehaaz say humain Jahaaz wapis chahieye.........hahaha


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## Imran Khan

rohailmalhi said:


> So Pakistan purchased the Saab-2000 or they are still at lease from SAAB.
> 
> haha............. Yeh na ho kay Saab wale aa jaien and tell u , Bahi G antenna utharo aapna hamray Jehaaz say humain Jahaaz wapis chahieye.........hahaha



now they are ours we buy them awacs ki lease per banwata hai aqal ker yaar hahaha


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## fatman17

would appreciate people stop spreading 'wrong/ 'mis-information'


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## MastanKhan

nuclearpak said:


> our AWACS were second hand?
> 
> Never knew that!



Hi,
Surprised you didnot know that ( must have forgotten )---but you are using the wrong term---the awacs are not second hand---the aircraft are---pretty much most of the awacs based on saab 2000 are on used aircraft---the used aircraft is of least concern---what is of concern is what is inside and outside of that aircraft.

The aircraft just has to fly between 350 and 4oo knots that is all---new or pre-owned---ain't any difference.

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## MJaa

Before someone tries to question the airframe life, 

Saab maintains, "Given typical utilisation, they (Saab 2000) are due to operate for the next 35 to 40 years."

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## Imran Khan

MJaa said:


> Before someone tries to question the airframe life,
> 
> Saab maintains, "Given typical utilisation, they (Saab 2000) are due to operate for the next 35 to 40 years."



then system can be transfered to any other small air craft if needed . but i don't think so we need it after 40 years .


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## Luftwaffe

Imran Khan said:


> then system can be transfered to any other small air craft if needed . but i don't think so we need it after 40 years .



In coming Years UAV AEW&C-AWACS would take to skies. 

AWACS to Get Unmanned Partner?

domain-b.com : Israel developing AWACS UAV on business jet platform


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## Imran Khan

Luftwaffe said:


> In coming Years UAV AEW&C-AWACS would take to skies.
> 
> AWACS to Get Unmanned Partner?
> 
> domain-b.com : Israel developing AWACS UAV on business jet platform



damn these idiots are trying to increase jobless humans . i hate any thing work without human .

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## Jango

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> Surprised you didnot know that ( must have forgotten )---but you are using the wrong term---the awacs are not second hand---the aircraft are---pretty much most of the awacs based on saab 2000 are on used aircraft---the used aircraft is of least concern---what is of concern is what is inside and outside of that aircraft.
> 
> The aircraft just has to fly between 350 and 4oo knots that is all---new or pre-owned---ain't any difference.



Woops. My bad. Mis-used the terms AWACS and SAAB-2000.

The Eriye system is new, but the Saab-2000 aircraft airframe is old.

Sorry fatman!!

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## Windjammer



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## ANG

Hi, one more thing about the SAAB-2000 and it being second hand. Before, these platforms were converted into the ERIEYE, they were refurbished by SAAB Aerospace and their airframes bought down to zero hours, meaning they are practically new. I remember reading this in an article.

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## Imran Khan

ANG said:


> Hi, one more thing about the SAAB-2000 and it being second hand. Before, these platforms were converted into the ERIEYE, they were refurbished by SAAB Aerospace and their airframes bought down to zero hours, meaning they are practically new. I remember reading this in an article.



yes yes you are right they remove each and every thing for civil use there .now its same as new


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## air marshal

*ZDK-03 'Karakoram Eagle' AWACS: ZDK-03 variant designed specifically for export to the Pakistan Air Force. Consists of a Chinese AESA radar mounted on the Y-8F600 platform. The radar is reported to have a greater range than that of the PAF's Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C radar. [Picture courtesy: Nadeem]*

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## Donatello

air marshal said:


> *ZDK-03 'Karakoram Eagle' AWACS: ZDK-03 variant designed specifically for export to the Pakistan Air Force. Consists of a Chinese AESA radar mounted on the Y-8F600 platform. The radar is reported to have a greater range than that of the PAF's Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C radar. [Picture courtesy: Nadeem]*




What are those white strips lurking on the top/bottom of the aircraft? Look between the cockpit and the mounted radar area.


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## razgriz19

penumbra said:


> What are those white strips lurking on the top/bottom of the aircraft? Look between the cockpit and the mounted radar area.



antennas....??


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## Dazzler

communication/ datalink antennae...


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## MastanKhan

nuclearpak said:


> Woops. My bad. Mis-used the terms AWACS and SAAB-2000.
> 
> The Eriye system is new, but the Saab-2000 aircraft airframe is old.
> 
> Sorry fatman!!



Hi,

That is okay sonny boy---

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## MastanKhan

rohailmalhi said:


> So Pakistan purchased the Saab-2000 or they are still at lease from SAAB.
> 
> haha............. Yeh na ho kay Saab wale aa jaien and tell u , Bahi G antenna utharo aapna hamray Jehaaz say humain Jahaaz wapis chahieye.........hahaha



Hi,

Actually---the awacs technology installed on it may get old and out dated before this aircraft see the end of its life---. Saab has no interest in getting that aircraft back---.

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## Donatello

nabil_05 said:


> communication/ datalink antennae...


 
I can see the antenna wire leading to the tail, showing a longer wavelength communications link, but those white ones don't make sense....i mean why have so many of them, so close together. Or is it like separate channels? Because those are whole lot of channels.

---------- Post added at 07:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 AM ----------

.....yea.....SAAB just went Bankrupt.


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## VelocuR

Similary E-2 Hawkeye, many datalink communication, just give you some ideas.


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## Dazzler

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Sir jee with respectfully ... Yeh wrong misinformation kiya hoti hai  Sir jee yeh tau bisti kharab honay wali baat hai



see the sign of (/) between two words?

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## DANGER-ZONE

penumbra said:


> I can see the antenna wire leading to the tail, showing a longer wavelength communications link, but those white ones don't make sense....i mean why have so many of them, so close together. Or is it like separate channels? Because those are whole lot of channels.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 AM ----------
> 
> .....yea.....SAAB just went Bankrupt.


 


RaptorRX707 said:


> Similary E-2 Hawkeye, many datalink communication, just give you some ideas.



Antennas Just like Phalcon have on top and bottom





Same like KJ-2000 have on top and bottom.

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## wangrong



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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> damn these idiots are trying to increase jobless humans . i hate any thing work without human .


i agree with you


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## nomi007

penumbra said:


> What are those white strips lurking on the top/bottom of the aircraft? Look between the cockpit and the mounted radar area.


paf add in flight air refueling probe in its AWACS


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## Dazzler

no need and plans as of now, might be in future when PAF becomes a regional instead of defensive force.


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## Fieldmarshal

nabil_05 said:


> no need and plans as of now, might be in future when PAF becomes a regional instead of defensive force.



their is no such thing as an air force being a defensive weapon. Air force in it self is an offensive force, specially an airforce the size of PAF.
not only do u have to defend and dominate ur own airspace but to do so u have to take the fight to the enemy and into its airspace. you need to take out the the enemies FOBs and deny him space in his own back yard.
if u dont do that u will be eliminated.

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## maverick1977

Fieldmarshal said:


> their is no such thing as an air force being a defensive weapon. Air force in it self is an offensive force, specially an airforce the size of PAF.
> not only do u have to defend and dominate ur own airspace but to do so u have to take the fight to the enemy and into its airspace. you need to take out the the enemies FOBs and deny him space in his own back yard.
> if u dont do that u will be eliminated.



Interestingly Pakistan airforce has never been a defensive force, except for 1971 that too in east pakistan.


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## Dazzler

Fieldmarshal said:


> their is no such thing as an air force being a defensive weapon. Air force in it self is an offensive force, specially an airforce the size of PAF.
> not only do u have to defend and dominate ur own airspace but to do so u have to take the fight to the enemy and into its airspace. you need to take out the the enemies FOBs and deny him space in his own back yard.
> if u dont do that u will be eliminated.



you took my post in a wrong spin. Having an endurance of 10.5-11 hours why would you need a refueling probe on your AWACS unless you are willing to take them over enemy territory and allow them some target practice? IFR option has been dropped because PAF AWACS fleet has sufficient endurance capability.

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## DANGER-ZONE

*Ready to take off*

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## Manticore



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## Imran Khan

color is damn dirty they should make it little more shining

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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> color is damn dirty they should make it little more shining


dear sir can pakistani awacs operates uavs like boeing737 awacs


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## TaimiKhan

ANTIBODY said:


>



If this picture is real and no Photoshop involved, then it means this is the 2nd ZDK of PAF as the tail says 11-002.

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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> If this picture is real and no Photoshop involved, then it means this is the 2nd ZDK of PAF as the tail says 11-002.



yes 2 a/c are delivered. both at Masroor. squadron re-equipment soon.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> yes 2 a/c are delivered. both at Masroor. squadron re-equipment soon.




Re-equip? Re-equip which one? Because the only such assets were Dassault Falcon and up north......but correct me if i am wrong.

So is it a new Squadron standing up or .....??


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## fatman17

penumbra said:


> Re-equip? Re-equip which one? Because the only such assets were Dassault Falcon and up north......but correct me if i am wrong.
> 
> *So is it a new Squadron standing up or .....??[/*QUOTE]
> 
> correct the sqn was number plated now standing up!

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> dear sir can pakistani awacs operates uavs like boeing737 awacs



nope not at all dear we need more 30 years to reach there .

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## fatman17

*ZDK-03 Cub* 

ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (serial # T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a traditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose and tail with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as small vertical stabilizers attached to its tailplanes. The Y-8 AWACS protoype was promoted to Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now named ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade high efficiency propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m contract. The first ZDK-03 prototype rolled out in November 2010 at SAC. Since then it has been undergoing test at CFTE (S/N 733). Another 3 were built by late 2011. ZDK-03 is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. The first ZDK-03 (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 11-002) is undergoing flight tests as well. *(now delivered)*

- Last Updated 12/21/11

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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> nope not at all dear we need more 30 years to reach there .


what is the meaning of zdk


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## atlantis_cn

nomi007 said:


> what is the meaning of zdk



ZDK means China Electronics Technology Group Corporation, CETC. Literally Zhong(China) Dian(Electronics) Ke(Technology) in Chinese.

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## air marshal

*January 2012*

ZDK-03 'Karakoram Eagle' AWACS

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## killerx

ANTIBODY said:


>


good going in right directions

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## gambit

fatman17 said:


> *ZDK-03 Cub*
> 
> ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (serial # T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. *Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a traditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag.* The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose and tail with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as small vertical stabilizers attached to its tailplanes. The Y-8 AWACS protoype was promoted to Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now named ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade high efficiency propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m contract. The first ZDK-03 prototype rolled out in November 2010 at SAC. Since then it has been undergoing test at CFTE (S/N 733). Another 3 were built by late 2011. ZDK-03 is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. The first ZDK-03 (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 11-002) is undergoing flight tests as well. *(now delivered)*
> 
> - Last Updated 12/21/11


This is just my opinion...

A rotodome's has certain physical limitations that we found to be most effective at 6-10 rpm with the lower figure the higher target update. An AWACS is a tactical asset, meaning it is best in highly dynamic combat situations that demands participants to have constant situational awareness and be prepared to act decisively based upon AWACS inputs. The closer the AWACS is to the active combat air zone, the greater the need for target updates and to provide friendly air forces with information. Even at the lower figure of 6 rpm rotation, a few seconds while waiting for the antenna to return to its previous location could mean a friendly aircraft lost because he did not have sufficient updates from his rear quadrants.

While there are physical limitations upon the main AESA antenna that may prevent it from having true 360 deg coverage, the aircraft can reposition itself or have additional arrays installed to make up for that lack. Fighters have been living with that for years and each of them have only frontal coverage. Those who have experienced first hand the power and flexibility of an AESA system simply do not want anything less.

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## Dazzler

ZDK-03 has an AESA radar in a rotating dome.

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## nomi007

atlantis_cn said:


> ZDK means China Electronics Technology Group Corporation, CETC. Literally Zhong(China) Dian(Electronics) Ke(Technology) in Chinese.


thankx dear


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## fatman17

*Images hint at Chinese Y-8 ELINT variant*


Ted Parsons JDW Correspondent - Washington, DC



Recent images of a new version of the prolific Shaanxi Aircraft Corporation's series of modified Y-8 medium transport aircraft appear to confirm earlier reports of a dedicated electronic intelligence (ELINT) variant, which has often been referred to as the Y-8GX8. 

Recent imagery of a new Shaanxi Aircraft Corporation Y-8 variant shows an aircraft with a bulbous nose radome and four linear sensor arrays.

Based on the 'New High' Y-8 platform that features a modified fuselage and wing developed with the assistance of Ukraine's Antonov Corporation, this latest Y-8 has a bulbous nose radome and four linear sensor arrays. On the surface these arrays look similar to the US AN/AYR-1 electronic support measures (ESM) system, which provides precise geolocation based on signal interception. 

In addition to assisting targeting missions, this Y-8 version could perform ELINT missions near China's neighbours and over their naval forces. As such, its mission set could eventually be similar to that of the US Navy's Lockheed Martin EP-3 ELINT aircraft, one of which was forced to land on China's Hainan island after a collision with a People's Liberation Army Navy J-8II fighter on 1 April 2001.

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## fatman17

it is now confirmed that the new ZDK03 squadron based at masroor will be no.4 squadron which was previously number plated.
No. 4 Squadron 
Based at:	Mauripur/Masroor (Currently Number Plated)	*Raised:	15-Aug-59
Tactical Role:	*Search and Rescue (Now AWACS)	*Affiliation; Southern Command	
Aircraft; ZDK03 *Past Aircraft	*Grumman SA-16s, H-19D

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## air marshal

Areesh said:


> Who is this Mr Virjee?



Perci E Virjee - Ex-OC No. 24 Sqn, July 2000.

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## epinephrine

there were some news in the media regarding the purchase of the chinese awacs a couple of years back.there were reports that these birds are being purchased withoout approval from air board.ex air chief was against this deal and he said that he told the then president mr musharaff not to buy these birds but his advice was not acted upon as musharraf had some personal interest in that deal.


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## regular

but Chinese AWACS are far better than any European deals done by our PAF's leaders.....


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## A.Muqeet khan

epinephrine said:


> there were some news in the media regarding the purchase of the chinese awacs a couple of years back.there were reports that these birds are being purchased withoout approval from air board.ex air chief was against this deal and he said that he told the then president mr musharaff not to buy these birds but his advice was not acted upon as musharraf had some personal interest in that deal.


 true that is so true but as it turned out this deal actually turned out to be a blessing for paf cause now paf can manufacture them in home and the current paf operative operating them are pretty satisfied with there performance


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## epinephrine

A.Muqeet khan said:


> true that is so true but as it turned out this deal actually turned out to be a blessing for paf cause now paf can manufacture them in home and the current paf operative operating them are pretty satisfied with there performance



if it is so then its great but still there is problem of integrating US and chinese jets through chinese awacs.most of our ground based radars are of US origin so these chinese awacs have to be well in connection with the ground based radars.i think with saab erieye integration with ground systems is not a problem.i dont know how they behave towards the chinese radars n systems


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## Peaceful Civilian

epinephrine said:


> there were some news in the media regarding the purchase of the chinese awacs a couple of years back.there were reports that these birds are being purchased withoout approval from air board.ex air chief was against this deal and he said that he told the then president mr musharaff not to buy these birds but his advice was not acted upon as musharraf had some personal interest in that deal.


Who cares??? Musharraf interest in this deal is proved a correct Move.
Actually this was very wise decision for ZDK-03. As we Shall have Hundreds Of J10,JF17 fleet(BlockI, II, III ) in coming years... 
Who knows, if we also make deal in J2X program......
There will have many Chinese inventory in PAF fleet....
His intention for this ZDK-03 is perfectly understandable and justifiable proud.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Musharaf made alot of good decisions

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## ziaulislam

at that time thunders were suppose to get eurpeam avionics and a deal of 64 f-16s worth 5.1 billion was also signed(this was piror to earth quacke)
so buying chinse avionic seemed at that time a very foolish decision since other than j-10 (not decided at that time)and first 50 thunders we would have all western aircrafts (about 100 f-16s and rest of thunders with french avionics)

but things have changed now not only the f-16 deal died but thunder became totally chinese..meaning that wrong decision became right due to luck..


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## hatf IX

fatman17 said:


> *Images hint at Chinese Y-8 ELINT variant*
> 
> 
> Ted Parsons JDW Correspondent - Washington, DC
> 
> 
> 
> Recent images of a new version of the prolific Shaanxi Aircraft Corporation's series of modified Y-8 medium transport aircraft appear to confirm earlier reports of a dedicated electronic intelligence (ELINT) variant, which has often been referred to as the Y-8GX8.
> 
> Recent imagery of a new Shaanxi Aircraft Corporation Y-8 variant shows an aircraft with a bulbous nose radome and four linear sensor arrays.
> 
> Based on the 'New High' Y-8 platform that features a modified fuselage and wing developed with the assistance of Ukraine's Antonov Corporation, this latest Y-8 has a bulbous nose radome and four linear sensor arrays. On the surface these arrays look similar to the US AN/AYR-1 electronic support measures (ESM) system, which provides precise geolocation based on signal interception.
> 
> In addition to assisting targeting missions, this Y-8 version could perform ELINT missions near China's neighbours and over their naval forces. As such, its mission set could eventually be similar to that of the US Navy's Lockheed Martin EP-3 ELINT aircraft, one of which was forced to land on China's Hainan island after a collision with a People's Liberation Army Navy J-8II fighter on 1 April 2001.



i think you r talking about this . . .

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## airbus101

??????_?_


Editor's Note: Recently, a group of Chinese exports coming out of Pakistan's early warning network of photos, Articles for this special interview with deputy chief designer of the early warning aircraft, China Electronics Technology Group Corporation researcher Cao morning, early warning and knowledge on a request make a solution.

&#12288;&#12288;Reporter: (hereinafter referred to mind) Cao hello! Recently appeared on the World Wide Web sites such as the development of China's early-warning aircraft to Pakistan some pictures, one of which is the early warning aircraft model, the body there is a sign of CETC, which is the China Electronics Technology Group Corporation's LOGO. As the group's research staff, please briefly describe the case of groups, especially Group and China's military industries.

&#12288;&#12288;Cao morning: (hereinafter referred to CAO) China China's military power is the group of electronic and information technology team, is one of the top ten military group, established in 2002, mainly engaged in all kinds of weapons and equipment of information technology products and consumer electronics information the development. From electronic components, made basic computer hardware and software, machine, like the area until the integrated command automation systems, early warning aircraft, data link, such large-scale systems, are all Chinese military power in the field of Science major lines of business. In fact, we can note that the export of Pakistan's AWACS, called ZDK03, which "ZDK" is "in the Electric Division," the phonetic abbreviation, 03 representing the Electric Division, following China's 2000 air marshals, air marshals served after 200 chief architect of the third unit developed early warning models. 

&#12288;&#12288;In addition to early warning aircraft in addition to other major projects, the China Electricity Division also played an important role. For example, in manned space program as a deputy commander unit, responsible for monitoring and control equipment, communications systems, radar detection devices, solar cells and a number of key components of development. In lunar exploration project, is also vice president of China Power Division commander unit in the satellite, launch vehicle, launch site, monitoring and control communications and ground application systems in five major research task undertaken. In the national publication of the 16 major projects, the China Electricity Division to assume special importance in a number of research tasks, especially in the first major projects, "the core devices, high-end chips and basic software (nuclear high base)," served as the main role, and in the country "very large scale integrated circuit manufacturing process equipment and complete sets of" science and technology projects undertaken in the planning and overall design.

&#12288;&#12288;Note: early warning radar is the primary sensor. The world's airborne radar development trends? China's airborne radar technology in the world belong to what level?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: the world in general to the airborne radar active phased array direction, both on the AWACS airborne early warning aircraft on radar or airborne fire control radar, like this, these two areas is the most airborne radar The main areas. China to airborne early warning radar as a breakthrough to achieve airborne radar equipment from the mechanical to the active phased array scanning across, not to engage in passive phased array, the world's first equipment warning two-dimensional active phased array radar , that the radar beam in the horizontal direction and height direction can be electronically scanned, which also contributed to the aircraft fire control radar equipment using active phased array. From the time point of view, Israel and Sweden are the active phased array early warning radar equipment to form the country, is the familiar "Phalcon" and "balance beam", the United States was the first equipped with active phased array airborne State fire control radar and equipment on the F-22. Europe in the completion of airborne early warning radar active phased array applications, is equipped with active phased array fire control radar, such as the UK's "wind." In addition to active phased array, the airborne radar is an important development direction of digital. Now the active phased array, the transceiver generates the transmit frequency components of the device and the receiving beam processing are analog, so sending and receiving component weight and volume is too large, the aircraft platform is not of Fitness good. Digital transceiver components, firing frequency from low to high frequency digital synthesis, and in receiving and processing time, directly on the firing frequency analog to digital conversion, not only significantly reduces the weight and size, and very flexible beam processing , can interfere with the formation of the weakest direction automatically receive, thereby greatly enhancing the ability of radar anti-jamming and anti-noise capability. China's airborne early warning radar, digital standard has been an international leader.

&#12288;&#12288;Reporter: China's airborne radar components above the level of local production? For example, the transmitter amplifier tubes, as well as processor chips, software, etc. are subject to foreign?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: China's airborne radar transceiver components including solid state power amplifier tube and the inside, including all the key components are made of, radar data processing required for high-speed processor chip is also our own research and development. In the computer, although the use of COTS is a trend, data processing machines, distributed intelligence and command and control are specially developed without the use of military computers, you can directly buy the product on the market can basically meet the need, but the coin No doubt, China's information technology for the maintenance of information security, weapons and equipment are hidden dangers. Therefore, we insist on promoting the past few years, including servers, workstations, processors, chips, operating systems and databases and other computer-based hardware and software localization. We rely on machine-made platform and come up with a set air marshals 200, ZDK03. It can be said, through the platform, the basis of the key components and computer hardware and software localization, we have the early warning aircraft development initiative firmly in their own hands.

&#12288;&#12288;Reporter: From the photographs, early warning aircraft to China's exports to Pakistan as a platform for improved transport -8, U.S. P-3 type have early warning, early C-130 is also useful to make the idea of &#8203;&#8203;early warning platform. Propeller aircraft and jet aircraft as a platform for AWACS platform, which compared the advantages and disadvantages?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: In principle, as long as there is enough space and aircraft aerodynamic potential to allow the installation of radar or other electronic system and a large antenna to provide enough power to make the performance of radar or electronic systems to achieve the indicator; as long as the aircraft has sufficient load capacity, can accommodate the required equipment and personnel, propeller aircraft and jets are possible. Of course, some of propeller aircraft to more fuel-efficient.

&#12288;&#12288;In fact, compared to the engine type design on the impact of early warning aircraft, the aircraft fuselage wing position relative to the impact of early warning aircraft designed to be larger. AWACS air current configuration is the main disc, balance beam and conformal array. Disc and the balance beam, whether on the wing or under the wing have this layout, their common feature is the antenna on the rear. However, compared to an airplane wing on wing, under wing monoplane, the radar antenna from the machine back closer to the radar beam blocking more serious; order to reduce the block, need to stand higher bracket, which the larger the resistance, the strength requirements of the bracket will increase the operating stability of the aircraft impact is greater. For conformal array, because the front fuselage of the most spacious, it is generally affixed to the first radar antenna installed on both sides of the fuselage. For high-wing aircraft, the engine is generally placed under the hanging, so the beam scanning to position the engine will be blocked, and because the radar antenna will always have some bumps, may also affect the engine intake. Under the wing of the plane so there will not be a serious problem, so the conformal array of foreign aircraft, including Boeing 707, "Phalcon" and "Gulf Stream" 550 "Sea Eagle", is under the wing of the. Generally speaking, it is difficult to make propeller aircraft conformal array, the main problem is the blade block.

&#12288;&#12288;Note: the relatively simple early warning that air targets, but targets on the ground or in the mountains and so on, how to accurately determine the target, filter out the clutter?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: AWACS main goal is to see the air, especially in low-flying air targets. Movement on the ground or stationary targets, early warning is not read. Americans have engaged in the E-8 "co-star" system, in fact, is not called early warning aircraft. Aerial targets can be both in the sea, over land may also, from sea or land clutter is the radar echo. Although the sea clutter is weaker than the land clutter, but their strength may be stronger than the echo from the target of hundreds of thousands of times or even more, if by echo intensity to distinguish between clutter will cover the target. In order to have anti-noise ability, have adopted the modern early-warning radar pulse Doppler technology, the use of targets and clutter (ground or sea) relative to the speed of the different early warning aircraft to the target and clutter separate. For the E-8 such a system, and early warning aircraft contrary, the echo from the aircraft is to be filtered out, the echo from the ground is needed. It does this by synthetic aperture radar system on the ground imaging, early warning aircraft is on the pulse Doppler radar system.

&#12288;&#12288;Note: in the development of early warning aircraft and other military electronic equipment, more time, EMC is a major problem, how to handle this problem? China doing?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: about electromagnetic compatibility problems, people first thought is probably the EP-3 electronic reconnaissance aircraft. But in fact on the early warning aircraft electromagnetic compatibility problems are more complex, mainly on the early warning radar early warning aircraft, such high-power, high sensitivity of the device. In addition, the AWACS electronic surveillance tasks than more, so the types of electronic equipment is also more. It should be said to the troops of air marshals on behalf of 2000, shows that we have completely overcome this problem. 200 air marshals back to go in and ZDK03, so it is not a technical problem the. From the technical means, the roughly frequency isolation, spatial isolation, polarization isolation and temporal isolation 4 main ways. Frequency of isolation is to try different electronic devices work at different frequencies. Because different when you have electronic devices in the receiver frequency selectivity, that is, the signals of different frequencies have different amplification or inhibition, therefore, may be weakened signal into an electronic device to another electronic device causing the interference. Spatial isolation refers to the different electronic devices in space as a sufficient distance apart. As the radio signal attenuation of power with distance, so even if there is interference, then the interference signal interference device into the receiver, its strength has been very weak. Polarization isolation is a different antenna polarization to maximize the use of different parameters. Polarization refers to the electromagnetic field propagation in the direction of the electric field changes. Different receivers for different polarization of electromagnetic radiation may have a different reception. Time isolation, it is so different devices sharing the work, which is the most thorough method of electromagnetic compatibility. However, each device can not work, will definitely affect the overall combat effectiveness of the electronic system to play.

&#12288;&#12288;Note: this seems to solve the problem of electromagnetic compatibility is still a lot of ways, then, why do we have agreed that this issue is a major engineering difficulties early warning?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: The most important reason is that the application of these methods may often suffer a variety of factors. Such as the frequency of isolation, many of the existing early warning electronic equipment on its working band often has been designed not modifiable. HF radio communication is often or V / UHF bands, secondary radar and "TACAN" navigation system is L-band. Even if Li Lunshang band can choose equipment, such as radar, the frequency band of choice is often limited by many other conditions, may not only from the perspective of electromagnetic compatibility selected. Furthermore, early warning aircraft is very limited on space, and a lot of equipment and layout can not be everywhere at random and, therefore, a variety of sources to make certain the layout of spatial isolation is very difficult. In the polarized segregation, a common restriction is that the radar, for example, it observed the ground or sea, in a polarized, its reflective properties weaker, less easy to clutter the radar receiver, but This feature may be in conjunction with the electromagnetic compatibility conflict. It is even so many conflicting factors interact to increase the early-warning aircraft electromagnetic compatibility issues to resolve the difficulty. This requires good computer simulation in the design prediction and calculation and analysis, electrical properties of devices made many specific regulatory requirements, and fully carry out the test, adjust the parameters of the system and so on.

&#12288;&#12288;Note: radar and other equipment cooling is an important issue, especially in Pakistan or the Middle East as a hot environment, the means might be taken to improve what? Space and cooling equipment accounted for the weight of life?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: Radar is a big power, airborne early warning radar transmitter peak power of up to several hundred kilowatts. For phased array early warning radar, if a passive phased array, the heat from the bulk of two parts: one is concentrated on the early warning aircraft cabin-style transmitter, the other is on the top of the hood of the phase shift device. Placed in the cabin of the centralized transmitter as much heat, such as forced air cooling fan hair is not enough, the general method of liquid cooling. The top cover of the phase shifter can be used to force air cooling, liquid cooling can also be used. For active phased array early warning radar, cabin fever is basically no large, decentralized on hundreds of transmitters in the transceiver components. These components are in the top cover, if the power is larger, definitely use the liquid, such as air marshals 2000. If power is not, you can use air-cooled, for example, 200 air marshals. We can see the front and rear balance beam has holes, that is used to send and receive components of the cooling air inlet and outlet. In addition to the use of appropriate cooling method, the research or the use of the new equipment must be to make the device's storage temperature and operating temperature must be able to adapt to the local user requirements. The cost of the equipment cooling, the cooling system to current technology level, the heat probably increased by 1.2 per kilowatt to 1.5 kg of weight. If you need to heat 200 kilowatts, you need to gain weight around 300 kg.

&#12288;&#12288;Q: You mentioned earlier, phased array radar has become the trend, but the phased array radar antenna and the antenna than the traditional mechanical scanning, there are some inherent disadvantages. The disadvantages?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: Phased array radar antenna and conventional antenna compared to the main problem is that the antenna performance will increase with the beam scan angle worsened, while the traditional antenna will not have this problem. This is because, for the phased array antenna, the antenna array when the scan angle deviation from the surface normal, the beam is not perpendicular to the surface with the antenna array, and play a decisive role on the antenna performance and the beam is perpendicular to the antenna area, known as the effective area. Partial scan angle normal to the front on both sides of 60 °, the effective area is only half of the whole area, the antenna performance will seriously deteriorate to the extent not used, this is a phased array antenna is generally only around the 60 ° scan range truth. And because the traditional antenna and antenna array beam is always perpendicular to the surface, so the antenna performance has always played a decisive role in all of the antenna area. Deterioration of the antenna performance includes two aspects, one main lobe of fat, which is the antenna gain reduction, because the main lobe is emitted from the antenna wave energy in space the most concentrated area, the wider the main lobe, indicating that this region more energy less, which are crucial for the radar beam is projected onto the farther detrimental. Second, the side lobe is too high, Ye Hao understand this, because the total energy emitted from the antenna is certain, contained in the main lobe in less energy, natural energy to go on the side lobe in more.

&#12288;&#12288;Reporter: So, phased array antennas in these two areas there are ways to overcome the lack of it? So, is the traditional antennas will not be fully eliminated?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: the performance worsening in these two areas, the main lobe of fat can also be prone to make up for a few radar pulses. Because phased array radar beam scanning can be electronically controlled, allowing the beam sweep faster, you can scan more slowly. Sweep more slowly when the beam scan passing the target, the longer the time to stay, that is, the more pulses emitted, the energy will come back more, so that the antenna gain to make up due to falling energy reduction. However, the sidelobe elevation can not solve this problem, but its impact will be more serious, because sidelobe distribution in all directions, will be irradiated to the ground, it will increase the intensity of ground clutter, which the anti-clutter negative. So, in general, anti-mechanical scanning radar clutter capability will be better. As the traditional antenna will not be eliminated, I think not as it lies in two aspects: First, not all radar tasks are required to solve the phased array, mechanical scanning radar, low cost, easy to use, many cases have been enough; second, can the advantages of the traditional antenna combined with phased array.

&#12288;&#12288;Reporter: You just mentioned can be traditional phased array antenna and antenna combined, the European C-295 AWACS Radar design is by rotating radome integrated with phased array antenna design, the diameter radome certain circumstances, an antenna can be installed along the diameter, length can be increased accordingly, in order to install more transmit / receive modules, and therefore has more power, more flexible scanning, improved version of the U.S. E-2C has the idea. You speak with such a vision is not a meaning?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: Yes. C-295 and E-2C are disc form. If the use of phased array to achieve full coverage, at least three front, can these two AWACS aircraft carrier aircraft are small, allowing the disc size is not significant, C-295 was 6 m, E -2C and its improved version of E-2D was 7 meters. Cover the same size circular arrangement of three antennas in the front, compared to the layout of a front only, that is, rotating antenna, there is no doubt that three front antenna size will be smaller. The small size of the antenna after the detection range is not enough. Rotating antenna has the advantage of antenna size can be larger, and anti-noise performance, but can not scan as fast as flexible phased array. So, what can the combination of both? Yes, this combination is called "machine-phase scanning." As a result of the phased array scanning mode, multiple pulses can reduce the scan cycle, detection range can be further increased.

&#12288;&#12288;Q: Can you further explain how the mechanical scanning is combined with phased array scan work?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: The E-2D, for example, rotating radar antenna in the process, if there are threats that target a certain direction, you need to immediately re-target irradiated with a beam, the beam can be used for computer-controlled flyback, to overcome the mere mechanical scan observed the target again in a circle until only after weaknesses. Of course, the angle of sweep back to normal on both sides of the antenna will not exceed 60 ° range. And if you only need to observe, rather than the whole 120 ° airspace airspace, the antenna can not rotate, only phased array manner.

&#12288;&#12288;Q: After listening to your introduction, we know that the disc-shaped AWACS radar there are three, one is like an air marshal 2000 so that only phased array scanning, and one is like the United States and Russia, E-3 A-50 only mechanical scan, there is a C-295 and E-2D phase sweep of this machine. So why use such a common type of radar disc? Conformal array proposed for many years, why so far only in the development of Israel's own?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: I think the problem involves disc-shaped, balance beam conformal array and the three main air AWACS configuration of choice. My general view is that the radar detection range to meet the requirements of the premise, the disc may be the best choice. If the distance in order to meet the requirements of the antenna can provide disk size is not enough, it would have to take some other form of radome. For example, the balance beam in the form, you can like the C-295 aircraft of this size to do the balance beam 9 meters in length, the use of conformal array form, can be in the "Gulf Stream" 550 aircraft of this size on the surface of the antenna array size to achieve 10 m × 2 m, this is the disc size can not be achieved. But do the large size of the antenna and may be at the expense of full performance for the price. Balance beam head and tail are blind; conformal array head and tail even though it can cover, but the distance is much closer. As for the disc, whether it is transferred, or does not turn, are able to meet the full requirements of uniform coverage, and disc compatibility is very good, as a disc, not only do the turn, but do do not turn, has two advantages.

&#12288;&#12288;Note: In order to make up the balance beam orientation blind, E-737 to install a cap, this can solve the problem the balance beam? Also, you mentioned that there are conformal array direction detection uneven, can you explain again?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: E-737 to increase the cap above the balance beam antennas, which beam injection direction is towards the nose and tail, and the work performance of the antenna beam, is the antenna in the direction of the nose and tail size, the size large, rather than the size of the wingspan direction, so better able to compensate for blind spots. This antenna beam injection direction and the plane parallel to the antenna, rather than the side of the radio antenna as the plane perpendicular to the antenna, known as the end-fire antenna. Our early when cable is not yet universal Yagi antenna is used in the first end-fire antenna. However, this antenna in the current technical level, the gain and the maximum scan angle can be achieved are still not the same side of radio antenna matching, so the nose and tail of the detection range will still be closer. The conformal array, the position detection was mainly due to uneven nose and tail that can be allowed to install the antenna size is much smaller than in the fuselage sides to the Boeing 707 "Phalcon" for example, the nose area of &#8203;&#8203;the antenna only 3 square meters and more, only the side of the antenna area of &#8203;&#8203;1 / 6. Of course, in the case of smaller antennas, the radar can work up to make up for the shorter wavelengths, so that is also able to gain the post. So, then Israel has engaged in a "sea eagle" conformal array early warning radar antenna at the head end, the operating wavelength of 10 cm, while the fuselage on both sides of the radar wavelength of 25 cm. But even if to do so, as a multiple of the wavelength difference is not entirely compensate for differences in a multiple antenna area, so the full range of detection is not balanced.

&#12288;&#12288;Note: now disc-shaped AWACS radar is still widely used, and the nascent disc-shaped AWACS phased array in direction to the development, then the mechanical scanning of US-Russian early warning aircraft, there may be disc shaped by technological innovation to make up some of the disadvantages of modern ?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: Let me talk about the United States. Disc-shaped early warning aircraft from the U.S. Navy's E-2C mechanical scanning to improve the E-2D, which is the active phased array with mechanical scanning of new things, a great influence on E-2C can no longer be seen as an upgrade, and is a new model. U.S. Air Force E-3 AWACS, radar, have not seen its like to change the active phased array of reports, but it also made some improvements, such as increasing the transmission power, improved waveform design, the use of new devices to reduce processing losses, etc. measures to increase the detection range of more than 80%. At the same time the system has also done a lot of improvements, including the use of new broadband data link, enhanced battlefield situational multi-source data fusion and the formation of software improvements, etc., the latest upgrade model E-3G. Russian A-50 early warning aircraft will have to be replaced by A-100, IL-76 from its carrier aircraft Il-476 instead, will use radar active phased array.

&#12288;&#12288;Note: the Russian A-100 will use what kind of configuration it?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: There is no more to see the relevant reports. I personally think that the possibility of using disk configuration to be larger. On the one hand, Il-476 and IL-76 in the basic aerodynamic layout similar to the high wing aircraft is not likely to use conformal array. On the other hand, IL-76 on the disc-shaped configuration is very mature, IL-76 Israeli exports to India, "Phalcon" and Russia's own A-50, all of this configuration. The array is made of three sides made of single or array, depending on how much power is required. If you want to meet for small aircraft is about 400 kilometers away from the discovery request, even if the array should be enough on three sides, and this distance is compared to A-50 has improved a lot. If you want to improve the discovery of the ability of stealth aircraft, the possibility of using machine-phase scanning large. Of course, if the power increase again, you should use another type of structure.

&#12288;&#12288;Reporter: Now everyone is concerned about aircraft carriers early warning aircraft. China's existing fixed-wing aircraft platforms, slippery little for flying leaps, like the transport -12 as the maximum takeoff weight of 5.3 tons, a maximum payload of 1.7 tons of aircraft carrier-based AWACS could change it? Win -7 maximum takeoff weight of 21 tons that, load 4.7 tons of aircraft can serve as early warning aircraft carrier catapult to carry it?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: E-2 maximum takeoff weight of 26 tons, is equipped with the first 80,000-ton aircraft carrier. China is now the platform for the 60,000-ton aircraft carrier, but even so, transport -12 is still too small. China-made aircraft in operation and is more close to -7 E-2. But to note that the maximum takeoff weight shipped -7 is 21 tons, E-2 C-2A carrier machine to light a lot, have to a large number of captains and wingspan. Therefore, the carrier transport -7 and adaptation of them to be more difficult to achieve. And C-2 is specifically developed for the early warning aircraft on the ship, the fitting with the carrier to do a lot of special design, such as folding wings, radomes leg lift, and so highly. If the operation -7 as a ready-made AWACS aircraft to change, probably had to use these designs, along with other measures of the modification, the resulting design changes may be less than the workload developed a new type of adapter carrier aircraft, the basic parameters may be changed greatly. Nevertheless, in the absence of better conditions for the platform, I personally think -7 operation may still be an important choice.

&#12288;&#12288;Reporter: equipment for various reasons can not be the case of fixed-wing AWACS, the use of performance on the early warning helicopters and fixed-wing AWACS much difference?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: carrier-based early warning helicopter ceiling is much lower than fixed-wing AWACS. If the fixed-wing AWACS ceiling in 8,000 meters of sea-flying aircraft affixed, the maximum sight distance of 370 km or so; and early warning helicopters ceiling of 4,000 meters, the maximum sight distance is only 250 km or so. And because it is the body is small, fewer personnel, command and control capabilities should be much weaker. But its fundamental value is that the ground was able to overcome or shipboard radar line of sight from the past, low-flying target detection for only three to four kilometers from the defects, the effective low-level raid against the enemy, which is important for fleet air defense. In addition, it uses a flexible, space requirements for the carrier's relatively low, the cost is cheap, equipment, number of fixed-wing AWACS can be a lot more than that. Also, a variety of tactical operations from the sea to be considered, the helicopter's radar early warning function of the general functions than a simple early-warning radar to many, including imaging of the sea, beacon, anti-submarine and meteorological early warning. Therefore, early warning helicopters and fixed wing AWACS with one hand, the completion of some areas of the low-altitude warning radar command guidance and a small amount of the task, the other can perform in addition to radar warning and command guidance other than the Navy's unique operational mission.

&#12288;&#12288;Note: There are three radar early warning helicopters mounted way, namely, the British "Neptune," the Ministry of the machine body side retractable tube, the Russian card -31 abdomen retractable panels, France's "Super Puma" retractable rear cylinder. The layout of each of these three characteristics?

&#12288;&#12288;Cao: three on the whole layout is retractable, because if we adopt the fixed antenna structure may be difficult to have the installation conditions. For example, as did the fixed-wing AWACS antenna fixed to the upper body and elevated obviously not, because the rotor. The idea of &#8203;&#8203;trying to get a large enough area of &#8203;&#8203;the antenna in the case, in the end what kind of mounting means need to combine all aspects of machine set to set. The layout of these three aircraft to compare card -31 abdomen obtained retractable antenna plate area is the largest, reaching 6 m × 1 m. Of course, the antenna can do much, but also the size of the helicopter itself.

&#12288;&#12288;Reporter: Thank you for the interview.

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## houshanghai

the most important extracts from the interview of ChaoChen who is the vice-chief designer of ZDK03

&#25105;&#22269;&#20197;&#26426;&#36733;&#39044;&#35686;&#38647;&#36798;&#20026;&#31361;&#30772;&#21475;&#65292;&#23454;&#29616;&#20102;&#26426;&#36733;&#38647;&#36798;&#35013;&#22791;&#20174;&#26426;&#26800;&#25195;&#25551;&#21040;&#26377;&#28304;&#30456;&#25511;&#38453;&#30340;&#36328;&#36234;&#65292;&#27809;&#26377;&#25630;&#26080;&#28304;&#30456;&#25511;&#38453;&#65292;&#22312;&#19990;&#30028;&#19978;&#39318;&#27425;&#35013;&#22791;&#20108;&#32500;&#26377;&#28304;&#30456;&#25511;&#38453;&#39044;&#35686;&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#25105;&#22269;&#26426;&#36733;&#39044;&#35686;&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;&#25968;&#23383;&#21270;&#27700;&#24179;&#24050;&#32463;&#23621;&#20110;&#22269;&#38469;&#39046;&#20808;&#22320;&#20301;&#12290;
translate;
"Using AEW&C radar as the focus of R&D, China successfully leap-frog directly from traditional mechanical scan to AESA, bypassing PESA. China is the first in the world to equip air-borne two dimensional (pitch, yaw) AESA in AEW&C planes. Digital hard and softwares in China's AEW&C planes are considered leaders of their disciplines and among the best in the world."

The Vice-designer also mentioned that ZDK-03 was developed based on knowledge and experiences from KJ-2000 and KJ-200.

So it can be confirmed that ZDK03 is AESA ...Chairman fatman17's infs proved remarkably accurate^^

THX TO macau boy

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## nomi007

airbus101 said:


> ??????_?_
> 
> 
> Editor's Note: Recently, a group of Chinese exports coming out of Pakistan's early warning network of photos, Articles for this special interview with deputy chief designer of the early warning aircraft, China Electronics Technology Group Corporation researcher Cao morning, early warning and knowledge on a request make a solution.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: (hereinafter referred to mind) Cao hello! Recently appeared on the World Wide Web sites such as the development of China's early-warning aircraft to Pakistan some pictures, one of which is the early warning aircraft model, the body there is a sign of CETC, which is the China Electronics Technology Group Corporation's LOGO. As the group's research staff, please briefly describe the case of groups, especially Group and China's military industries.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao morning: (hereinafter referred to CAO) China China's military power is the group of electronic and information technology team, is one of the top ten military group, established in 2002, mainly engaged in all kinds of weapons and equipment of information technology products and consumer electronics information the development. From electronic components, made basic computer hardware and software, machine, like the area until the integrated command automation systems, early warning aircraft, data link, such large-scale systems, are all Chinese military power in the field of Science major lines of business. In fact, we can note that the export of Pakistan's AWACS, called ZDK03, which "ZDK" is "in the Electric Division," the phonetic abbreviation, 03 representing the Electric Division, following China's 2000 air marshals, air marshals served after 200 chief architect of the third unit developed early warning models.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;In addition to early warning aircraft in addition to other major projects, the China Electricity Division also played an important role. For example, in manned space program as a deputy commander unit, responsible for monitoring and control equipment, communications systems, radar detection devices, solar cells and a number of key components of development. In lunar exploration project, is also vice president of China Power Division commander unit in the satellite, launch vehicle, launch site, monitoring and control communications and ground application systems in five major research task undertaken. In the national publication of the 16 major projects, the China Electricity Division to assume special importance in a number of research tasks, especially in the first major projects, "the core devices, high-end chips and basic software (nuclear high base)," served as the main role, and in the country "very large scale integrated circuit manufacturing process equipment and complete sets of" science and technology projects undertaken in the planning and overall design.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: early warning radar is the primary sensor. The world's airborne radar development trends? China's airborne radar technology in the world belong to what level?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: the world in general to the airborne radar active phased array direction, both on the AWACS airborne early warning aircraft on radar or airborne fire control radar, like this, these two areas is the most airborne radar The main areas. China to airborne early warning radar as a breakthrough to achieve airborne radar equipment from the mechanical to the active phased array scanning across, not to engage in passive phased array, the world's first equipment warning two-dimensional active phased array radar , that the radar beam in the horizontal direction and height direction can be electronically scanned, which also contributed to the aircraft fire control radar equipment using active phased array. From the time point of view, Israel and Sweden are the active phased array early warning radar equipment to form the country, is the familiar "Phalcon" and "balance beam", the United States was the first equipped with active phased array airborne State fire control radar and equipment on the F-22. Europe in the completion of airborne early warning radar active phased array applications, is equipped with active phased array fire control radar, such as the UK's "wind." In addition to active phased array, the airborne radar is an important development direction of digital. Now the active phased array, the transceiver generates the transmit frequency components of the device and the receiving beam processing are analog, so sending and receiving component weight and volume is too large, the aircraft platform is not of Fitness good. Digital transceiver components, firing frequency from low to high frequency digital synthesis, and in receiving and processing time, directly on the firing frequency analog to digital conversion, not only significantly reduces the weight and size, and very flexible beam processing , can interfere with the formation of the weakest direction automatically receive, thereby greatly enhancing the ability of radar anti-jamming and anti-noise capability. China's airborne early warning radar, digital standard has been an international leader.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: China's airborne radar components above the level of local production? For example, the transmitter amplifier tubes, as well as processor chips, software, etc. are subject to foreign?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: China's airborne radar transceiver components including solid state power amplifier tube and the inside, including all the key components are made of, radar data processing required for high-speed processor chip is also our own research and development. In the computer, although the use of COTS is a trend, data processing machines, distributed intelligence and command and control are specially developed without the use of military computers, you can directly buy the product on the market can basically meet the need, but the coin No doubt, China's information technology for the maintenance of information security, weapons and equipment are hidden dangers. Therefore, we insist on promoting the past few years, including servers, workstations, processors, chips, operating systems and databases and other computer-based hardware and software localization. We rely on machine-made platform and come up with a set air marshals 200, ZDK03. It can be said, through the platform, the basis of the key components and computer hardware and software localization, we have the early warning aircraft development initiative firmly in their own hands.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: From the photographs, early warning aircraft to China's exports to Pakistan as a platform for improved transport -8, U.S. P-3 type have early warning, early C-130 is also useful to make the idea of &#8203;&#8203;early warning platform. Propeller aircraft and jet aircraft as a platform for AWACS platform, which compared the advantages and disadvantages?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: In principle, as long as there is enough space and aircraft aerodynamic potential to allow the installation of radar or other electronic system and a large antenna to provide enough power to make the performance of radar or electronic systems to achieve the indicator; as long as the aircraft has sufficient load capacity, can accommodate the required equipment and personnel, propeller aircraft and jets are possible. Of course, some of propeller aircraft to more fuel-efficient.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;In fact, compared to the engine type design on the impact of early warning aircraft, the aircraft fuselage wing position relative to the impact of early warning aircraft designed to be larger. AWACS air current configuration is the main disc, balance beam and conformal array. Disc and the balance beam, whether on the wing or under the wing have this layout, their common feature is the antenna on the rear. However, compared to an airplane wing on wing, under wing monoplane, the radar antenna from the machine back closer to the radar beam blocking more serious; order to reduce the block, need to stand higher bracket, which the larger the resistance, the strength requirements of the bracket will increase the operating stability of the aircraft impact is greater. For conformal array, because the front fuselage of the most spacious, it is generally affixed to the first radar antenna installed on both sides of the fuselage. For high-wing aircraft, the engine is generally placed under the hanging, so the beam scanning to position the engine will be blocked, and because the radar antenna will always have some bumps, may also affect the engine intake. Under the wing of the plane so there will not be a serious problem, so the conformal array of foreign aircraft, including Boeing 707, "Phalcon" and "Gulf Stream" 550 "Sea Eagle", is under the wing of the. Generally speaking, it is difficult to make propeller aircraft conformal array, the main problem is the blade block.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: the relatively simple early warning that air targets, but targets on the ground or in the mountains and so on, how to accurately determine the target, filter out the clutter?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: AWACS main goal is to see the air, especially in low-flying air targets. Movement on the ground or stationary targets, early warning is not read. Americans have engaged in the E-8 "co-star" system, in fact, is not called early warning aircraft. Aerial targets can be both in the sea, over land may also, from sea or land clutter is the radar echo. Although the sea clutter is weaker than the land clutter, but their strength may be stronger than the echo from the target of hundreds of thousands of times or even more, if by echo intensity to distinguish between clutter will cover the target. In order to have anti-noise ability, have adopted the modern early-warning radar pulse Doppler technology, the use of targets and clutter (ground or sea) relative to the speed of the different early warning aircraft to the target and clutter separate. For the E-8 such a system, and early warning aircraft contrary, the echo from the aircraft is to be filtered out, the echo from the ground is needed. It does this by synthetic aperture radar system on the ground imaging, early warning aircraft is on the pulse Doppler radar system.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: in the development of early warning aircraft and other military electronic equipment, more time, EMC is a major problem, how to handle this problem? China doing?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: about electromagnetic compatibility problems, people first thought is probably the EP-3 electronic reconnaissance aircraft. But in fact on the early warning aircraft electromagnetic compatibility problems are more complex, mainly on the early warning radar early warning aircraft, such high-power, high sensitivity of the device. In addition, the AWACS electronic surveillance tasks than more, so the types of electronic equipment is also more. It should be said to the troops of air marshals on behalf of 2000, shows that we have completely overcome this problem. 200 air marshals back to go in and ZDK03, so it is not a technical problem the. From the technical means, the roughly frequency isolation, spatial isolation, polarization isolation and temporal isolation 4 main ways. Frequency of isolation is to try different electronic devices work at different frequencies. Because different when you have electronic devices in the receiver frequency selectivity, that is, the signals of different frequencies have different amplification or inhibition, therefore, may be weakened signal into an electronic device to another electronic device causing the interference. Spatial isolation refers to the different electronic devices in space as a sufficient distance apart. As the radio signal attenuation of power with distance, so even if there is interference, then the interference signal interference device into the receiver, its strength has been very weak. Polarization isolation is a different antenna polarization to maximize the use of different parameters. Polarization refers to the electromagnetic field propagation in the direction of the electric field changes. Different receivers for different polarization of electromagnetic radiation may have a different reception. Time isolation, it is so different devices sharing the work, which is the most thorough method of electromagnetic compatibility. However, each device can not work, will definitely affect the overall combat effectiveness of the electronic system to play.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: this seems to solve the problem of electromagnetic compatibility is still a lot of ways, then, why do we have agreed that this issue is a major engineering difficulties early warning?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: The most important reason is that the application of these methods may often suffer a variety of factors. Such as the frequency of isolation, many of the existing early warning electronic equipment on its working band often has been designed not modifiable. HF radio communication is often or V / UHF bands, secondary radar and "TACAN" navigation system is L-band. Even if Li Lunshang band can choose equipment, such as radar, the frequency band of choice is often limited by many other conditions, may not only from the perspective of electromagnetic compatibility selected. Furthermore, early warning aircraft is very limited on space, and a lot of equipment and layout can not be everywhere at random and, therefore, a variety of sources to make certain the layout of spatial isolation is very difficult. In the polarized segregation, a common restriction is that the radar, for example, it observed the ground or sea, in a polarized, its reflective properties weaker, less easy to clutter the radar receiver, but This feature may be in conjunction with the electromagnetic compatibility conflict. It is even so many conflicting factors interact to increase the early-warning aircraft electromagnetic compatibility issues to resolve the difficulty. This requires good computer simulation in the design prediction and calculation and analysis, electrical properties of devices made many specific regulatory requirements, and fully carry out the test, adjust the parameters of the system and so on.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: radar and other equipment cooling is an important issue, especially in Pakistan or the Middle East as a hot environment, the means might be taken to improve what? Space and cooling equipment accounted for the weight of life?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: Radar is a big power, airborne early warning radar transmitter peak power of up to several hundred kilowatts. For phased array early warning radar, if a passive phased array, the heat from the bulk of two parts: one is concentrated on the early warning aircraft cabin-style transmitter, the other is on the top of the hood of the phase shift device. Placed in the cabin of the centralized transmitter as much heat, such as forced air cooling fan hair is not enough, the general method of liquid cooling. The top cover of the phase shifter can be used to force air cooling, liquid cooling can also be used. For active phased array early warning radar, cabin fever is basically no large, decentralized on hundreds of transmitters in the transceiver components. These components are in the top cover, if the power is larger, definitely use the liquid, such as air marshals 2000. If power is not, you can use air-cooled, for example, 200 air marshals. We can see the front and rear balance beam has holes, that is used to send and receive components of the cooling air inlet and outlet. In addition to the use of appropriate cooling method, the research or the use of the new equipment must be to make the device's storage temperature and operating temperature must be able to adapt to the local user requirements. The cost of the equipment cooling, the cooling system to current technology level, the heat probably increased by 1.2 per kilowatt to 1.5 kg of weight. If you need to heat 200 kilowatts, you need to gain weight around 300 kg.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Q: You mentioned earlier, phased array radar has become the trend, but the phased array radar antenna and the antenna than the traditional mechanical scanning, there are some inherent disadvantages. The disadvantages?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: Phased array radar antenna and conventional antenna compared to the main problem is that the antenna performance will increase with the beam scan angle worsened, while the traditional antenna will not have this problem. This is because, for the phased array antenna, the antenna array when the scan angle deviation from the surface normal, the beam is not perpendicular to the surface with the antenna array, and play a decisive role on the antenna performance and the beam is perpendicular to the antenna area, known as the effective area. Partial scan angle normal to the front on both sides of 60 °, the effective area is only half of the whole area, the antenna performance will seriously deteriorate to the extent not used, this is a phased array antenna is generally only around the 60 ° scan range truth. And because the traditional antenna and antenna array beam is always perpendicular to the surface, so the antenna performance has always played a decisive role in all of the antenna area. Deterioration of the antenna performance includes two aspects, one main lobe of fat, which is the antenna gain reduction, because the main lobe is emitted from the antenna wave energy in space the most concentrated area, the wider the main lobe, indicating that this region more energy less, which are crucial for the radar beam is projected onto the farther detrimental. Second, the side lobe is too high, Ye Hao understand this, because the total energy emitted from the antenna is certain, contained in the main lobe in less energy, natural energy to go on the side lobe in more.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: So, phased array antennas in these two areas there are ways to overcome the lack of it? So, is the traditional antennas will not be fully eliminated?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: the performance worsening in these two areas, the main lobe of fat can also be prone to make up for a few radar pulses. Because phased array radar beam scanning can be electronically controlled, allowing the beam sweep faster, you can scan more slowly. Sweep more slowly when the beam scan passing the target, the longer the time to stay, that is, the more pulses emitted, the energy will come back more, so that the antenna gain to make up due to falling energy reduction. However, the sidelobe elevation can not solve this problem, but its impact will be more serious, because sidelobe distribution in all directions, will be irradiated to the ground, it will increase the intensity of ground clutter, which the anti-clutter negative. So, in general, anti-mechanical scanning radar clutter capability will be better. As the traditional antenna will not be eliminated, I think not as it lies in two aspects: First, not all radar tasks are required to solve the phased array, mechanical scanning radar, low cost, easy to use, many cases have been enough; second, can the advantages of the traditional antenna combined with phased array.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: You just mentioned can be traditional phased array antenna and antenna combined, the European C-295 AWACS Radar design is by rotating radome integrated with phased array antenna design, the diameter radome certain circumstances, an antenna can be installed along the diameter, length can be increased accordingly, in order to install more transmit / receive modules, and therefore has more power, more flexible scanning, improved version of the U.S. E-2C has the idea. You speak with such a vision is not a meaning?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: Yes. C-295 and E-2C are disc form. If the use of phased array to achieve full coverage, at least three front, can these two AWACS aircraft carrier aircraft are small, allowing the disc size is not significant, C-295 was 6 m, E -2C and its improved version of E-2D was 7 meters. Cover the same size circular arrangement of three antennas in the front, compared to the layout of a front only, that is, rotating antenna, there is no doubt that three front antenna size will be smaller. The small size of the antenna after the detection range is not enough. Rotating antenna has the advantage of antenna size can be larger, and anti-noise performance, but can not scan as fast as flexible phased array. So, what can the combination of both? Yes, this combination is called "machine-phase scanning." As a result of the phased array scanning mode, multiple pulses can reduce the scan cycle, detection range can be further increased.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Q: Can you further explain how the mechanical scanning is combined with phased array scan work?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: The E-2D, for example, rotating radar antenna in the process, if there are threats that target a certain direction, you need to immediately re-target irradiated with a beam, the beam can be used for computer-controlled flyback, to overcome the mere mechanical scan observed the target again in a circle until only after weaknesses. Of course, the angle of sweep back to normal on both sides of the antenna will not exceed 60 ° range. And if you only need to observe, rather than the whole 120 ° airspace airspace, the antenna can not rotate, only phased array manner.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Q: After listening to your introduction, we know that the disc-shaped AWACS radar there are three, one is like an air marshal 2000 so that only phased array scanning, and one is like the United States and Russia, E-3 A-50 only mechanical scan, there is a C-295 and E-2D phase sweep of this machine. So why use such a common type of radar disc? Conformal array proposed for many years, why so far only in the development of Israel's own?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: I think the problem involves disc-shaped, balance beam conformal array and the three main air AWACS configuration of choice. My general view is that the radar detection range to meet the requirements of the premise, the disc may be the best choice. If the distance in order to meet the requirements of the antenna can provide disk size is not enough, it would have to take some other form of radome. For example, the balance beam in the form, you can like the C-295 aircraft of this size to do the balance beam 9 meters in length, the use of conformal array form, can be in the "Gulf Stream" 550 aircraft of this size on the surface of the antenna array size to achieve 10 m × 2 m, this is the disc size can not be achieved. But do the large size of the antenna and may be at the expense of full performance for the price. Balance beam head and tail are blind; conformal array head and tail even though it can cover, but the distance is much closer. As for the disc, whether it is transferred, or does not turn, are able to meet the full requirements of uniform coverage, and disc compatibility is very good, as a disc, not only do the turn, but do do not turn, has two advantages.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: In order to make up the balance beam orientation blind, E-737 to install a cap, this can solve the problem the balance beam? Also, you mentioned that there are conformal array direction detection uneven, can you explain again?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: E-737 to increase the cap above the balance beam antennas, which beam injection direction is towards the nose and tail, and the work performance of the antenna beam, is the antenna in the direction of the nose and tail size, the size large, rather than the size of the wingspan direction, so better able to compensate for blind spots. This antenna beam injection direction and the plane parallel to the antenna, rather than the side of the radio antenna as the plane perpendicular to the antenna, known as the end-fire antenna. Our early when cable is not yet universal Yagi antenna is used in the first end-fire antenna. However, this antenna in the current technical level, the gain and the maximum scan angle can be achieved are still not the same side of radio antenna matching, so the nose and tail of the detection range will still be closer. The conformal array, the position detection was mainly due to uneven nose and tail that can be allowed to install the antenna size is much smaller than in the fuselage sides to the Boeing 707 "Phalcon" for example, the nose area of &#8203;&#8203;the antenna only 3 square meters and more, only the side of the antenna area of &#8203;&#8203;1 / 6. Of course, in the case of smaller antennas, the radar can work up to make up for the shorter wavelengths, so that is also able to gain the post. So, then Israel has engaged in a "sea eagle" conformal array early warning radar antenna at the head end, the operating wavelength of 10 cm, while the fuselage on both sides of the radar wavelength of 25 cm. But even if to do so, as a multiple of the wavelength difference is not entirely compensate for differences in a multiple antenna area, so the full range of detection is not balanced.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: now disc-shaped AWACS radar is still widely used, and the nascent disc-shaped AWACS phased array in direction to the development, then the mechanical scanning of US-Russian early warning aircraft, there may be disc shaped by technological innovation to make up some of the disadvantages of modern ?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: Let me talk about the United States. Disc-shaped early warning aircraft from the U.S. Navy's E-2C mechanical scanning to improve the E-2D, which is the active phased array with mechanical scanning of new things, a great influence on E-2C can no longer be seen as an upgrade, and is a new model. U.S. Air Force E-3 AWACS, radar, have not seen its like to change the active phased array of reports, but it also made some improvements, such as increasing the transmission power, improved waveform design, the use of new devices to reduce processing losses, etc. measures to increase the detection range of more than 80%. At the same time the system has also done a lot of improvements, including the use of new broadband data link, enhanced battlefield situational multi-source data fusion and the formation of software improvements, etc., the latest upgrade model E-3G. Russian A-50 early warning aircraft will have to be replaced by A-100, IL-76 from its carrier aircraft Il-476 instead, will use radar active phased array.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: the Russian A-100 will use what kind of configuration it?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: There is no more to see the relevant reports. I personally think that the possibility of using disk configuration to be larger. On the one hand, Il-476 and IL-76 in the basic aerodynamic layout similar to the high wing aircraft is not likely to use conformal array. On the other hand, IL-76 on the disc-shaped configuration is very mature, IL-76 Israeli exports to India, "Phalcon" and Russia's own A-50, all of this configuration. The array is made of three sides made of single or array, depending on how much power is required. If you want to meet for small aircraft is about 400 kilometers away from the discovery request, even if the array should be enough on three sides, and this distance is compared to A-50 has improved a lot. If you want to improve the discovery of the ability of stealth aircraft, the possibility of using machine-phase scanning large. Of course, if the power increase again, you should use another type of structure.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: Now everyone is concerned about aircraft carriers early warning aircraft. China's existing fixed-wing aircraft platforms, slippery little for flying leaps, like the transport -12 as the maximum takeoff weight of 5.3 tons, a maximum payload of 1.7 tons of aircraft carrier-based AWACS could change it? Win -7 maximum takeoff weight of 21 tons that, load 4.7 tons of aircraft can serve as early warning aircraft carrier catapult to carry it?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: E-2 maximum takeoff weight of 26 tons, is equipped with the first 80,000-ton aircraft carrier. China is now the platform for the 60,000-ton aircraft carrier, but even so, transport -12 is still too small. China-made aircraft in operation and is more close to -7 E-2. But to note that the maximum takeoff weight shipped -7 is 21 tons, E-2 C-2A carrier machine to light a lot, have to a large number of captains and wingspan. Therefore, the carrier transport -7 and adaptation of them to be more difficult to achieve. And C-2 is specifically developed for the early warning aircraft on the ship, the fitting with the carrier to do a lot of special design, such as folding wings, radomes leg lift, and so highly. If the operation -7 as a ready-made AWACS aircraft to change, probably had to use these designs, along with other measures of the modification, the resulting design changes may be less than the workload developed a new type of adapter carrier aircraft, the basic parameters may be changed greatly. Nevertheless, in the absence of better conditions for the platform, I personally think -7 operation may still be an important choice.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: equipment for various reasons can not be the case of fixed-wing AWACS, the use of performance on the early warning helicopters and fixed-wing AWACS much difference?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: carrier-based early warning helicopter ceiling is much lower than fixed-wing AWACS. If the fixed-wing AWACS ceiling in 8,000 meters of sea-flying aircraft affixed, the maximum sight distance of 370 km or so; and early warning helicopters ceiling of 4,000 meters, the maximum sight distance is only 250 km or so. And because it is the body is small, fewer personnel, command and control capabilities should be much weaker. But its fundamental value is that the ground was able to overcome or shipboard radar line of sight from the past, low-flying target detection for only three to four kilometers from the defects, the effective low-level raid against the enemy, which is important for fleet air defense. In addition, it uses a flexible, space requirements for the carrier's relatively low, the cost is cheap, equipment, number of fixed-wing AWACS can be a lot more than that. Also, a variety of tactical operations from the sea to be considered, the helicopter's radar early warning function of the general functions than a simple early-warning radar to many, including imaging of the sea, beacon, anti-submarine and meteorological early warning. Therefore, early warning helicopters and fixed wing AWACS with one hand, the completion of some areas of the low-altitude warning radar command guidance and a small amount of the task, the other can perform in addition to radar warning and command guidance other than the Navy's unique operational mission.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: There are three radar early warning helicopters mounted way, namely, the British "Neptune," the Ministry of the machine body side retractable tube, the Russian card -31 abdomen retractable panels, France's "Super Puma" retractable rear cylinder. The layout of each of these three characteristics?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: three on the whole layout is retractable, because if we adopt the fixed antenna structure may be difficult to have the installation conditions. For example, as did the fixed-wing AWACS antenna fixed to the upper body and elevated obviously not, because the rotor. The idea of &#8203;&#8203;trying to get a large enough area of &#8203;&#8203;the antenna in the case, in the end what kind of mounting means need to combine all aspects of machine set to set. The layout of these three aircraft to compare card -31 abdomen obtained retractable antenna plate area is the largest, reaching 6 m × 1 m. Of course, the antenna can do much, but also the size of the helicopter itself.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: Thank you for the interview.


http://i2.sinaimg.cn/jc/2012-01-11/U6449P27T1D679843F3DT20120111090520.jpeg

---------- Post added at 01:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------




airbus101 said:


> ??????_?_
> 
> 
> Editor's Note: Recently, a group of Chinese exports coming out of Pakistan's early warning network of photos, Articles for this special interview with deputy chief designer of the early warning aircraft, China Electronics Technology Group Corporation researcher Cao morning, early warning and knowledge on a request make a solution.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: (hereinafter referred to mind) Cao hello! Recently appeared on the World Wide Web sites such as the development of China's early-warning aircraft to Pakistan some pictures, one of which is the early warning aircraft model, the body there is a sign of CETC, which is the China Electronics Technology Group Corporation's LOGO. As the group's research staff, please briefly describe the case of groups, especially Group and China's military industries.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao morning: (hereinafter referred to CAO) China China's military power is the group of electronic and information technology team, is one of the top ten military group, established in 2002, mainly engaged in all kinds of weapons and equipment of information technology products and consumer electronics information the development. From electronic components, made basic computer hardware and software, machine, like the area until the integrated command automation systems, early warning aircraft, data link, such large-scale systems, are all Chinese military power in the field of Science major lines of business. In fact, we can note that the export of Pakistan's AWACS, called ZDK03, which "ZDK" is "in the Electric Division," the phonetic abbreviation, 03 representing the Electric Division, following China's 2000 air marshals, air marshals served after 200 chief architect of the third unit developed early warning models.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;In addition to early warning aircraft in addition to other major projects, the China Electricity Division also played an important role. For example, in manned space program as a deputy commander unit, responsible for monitoring and control equipment, communications systems, radar detection devices, solar cells and a number of key components of development. In lunar exploration project, is also vice president of China Power Division commander unit in the satellite, launch vehicle, launch site, monitoring and control communications and ground application systems in five major research task undertaken. In the national publication of the 16 major projects, the China Electricity Division to assume special importance in a number of research tasks, especially in the first major projects, "the core devices, high-end chips and basic software (nuclear high base)," served as the main role, and in the country "very large scale integrated circuit manufacturing process equipment and complete sets of" science and technology projects undertaken in the planning and overall design.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: early warning radar is the primary sensor. The world's airborne radar development trends? China's airborne radar technology in the world belong to what level?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: the world in general to the airborne radar active phased array direction, both on the AWACS airborne early warning aircraft on radar or airborne fire control radar, like this, these two areas is the most airborne radar The main areas. China to airborne early warning radar as a breakthrough to achieve airborne radar equipment from the mechanical to the active phased array scanning across, not to engage in passive phased array, the world's first equipment warning two-dimensional active phased array radar , that the radar beam in the horizontal direction and height direction can be electronically scanned, which also contributed to the aircraft fire control radar equipment using active phased array. From the time point of view, Israel and Sweden are the active phased array early warning radar equipment to form the country, is the familiar "Phalcon" and "balance beam", the United States was the first equipped with active phased array airborne State fire control radar and equipment on the F-22. Europe in the completion of airborne early warning radar active phased array applications, is equipped with active phased array fire control radar, such as the UK's "wind." In addition to active phased array, the airborne radar is an important development direction of digital. Now the active phased array, the transceiver generates the transmit frequency components of the device and the receiving beam processing are analog, so sending and receiving component weight and volume is too large, the aircraft platform is not of Fitness good. Digital transceiver components, firing frequency from low to high frequency digital synthesis, and in receiving and processing time, directly on the firing frequency analog to digital conversion, not only significantly reduces the weight and size, and very flexible beam processing , can interfere with the formation of the weakest direction automatically receive, thereby greatly enhancing the ability of radar anti-jamming and anti-noise capability. China's airborne early warning radar, digital standard has been an international leader.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: China's airborne radar components above the level of local production? For example, the transmitter amplifier tubes, as well as processor chips, software, etc. are subject to foreign?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: China's airborne radar transceiver components including solid state power amplifier tube and the inside, including all the key components are made of, radar data processing required for high-speed processor chip is also our own research and development. In the computer, although the use of COTS is a trend, data processing machines, distributed intelligence and command and control are specially developed without the use of military computers, you can directly buy the product on the market can basically meet the need, but the coin No doubt, China's information technology for the maintenance of information security, weapons and equipment are hidden dangers. Therefore, we insist on promoting the past few years, including servers, workstations, processors, chips, operating systems and databases and other computer-based hardware and software localization. We rely on machine-made platform and come up with a set air marshals 200, ZDK03. It can be said, through the platform, the basis of the key components and computer hardware and software localization, we have the early warning aircraft development initiative firmly in their own hands.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: From the photographs, early warning aircraft to China's exports to Pakistan as a platform for improved transport -8, U.S. P-3 type have early warning, early C-130 is also useful to make the idea of &#8203;&#8203;early warning platform. Propeller aircraft and jet aircraft as a platform for AWACS platform, which compared the advantages and disadvantages?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: In principle, as long as there is enough space and aircraft aerodynamic potential to allow the installation of radar or other electronic system and a large antenna to provide enough power to make the performance of radar or electronic systems to achieve the indicator; as long as the aircraft has sufficient load capacity, can accommodate the required equipment and personnel, propeller aircraft and jets are possible. Of course, some of propeller aircraft to more fuel-efficient.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;In fact, compared to the engine type design on the impact of early warning aircraft, the aircraft fuselage wing position relative to the impact of early warning aircraft designed to be larger. AWACS air current configuration is the main disc, balance beam and conformal array. Disc and the balance beam, whether on the wing or under the wing have this layout, their common feature is the antenna on the rear. However, compared to an airplane wing on wing, under wing monoplane, the radar antenna from the machine back closer to the radar beam blocking more serious; order to reduce the block, need to stand higher bracket, which the larger the resistance, the strength requirements of the bracket will increase the operating stability of the aircraft impact is greater. For conformal array, because the front fuselage of the most spacious, it is generally affixed to the first radar antenna installed on both sides of the fuselage. For high-wing aircraft, the engine is generally placed under the hanging, so the beam scanning to position the engine will be blocked, and because the radar antenna will always have some bumps, may also affect the engine intake. Under the wing of the plane so there will not be a serious problem, so the conformal array of foreign aircraft, including Boeing 707, "Phalcon" and "Gulf Stream" 550 "Sea Eagle", is under the wing of the. Generally speaking, it is difficult to make propeller aircraft conformal array, the main problem is the blade block.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: the relatively simple early warning that air targets, but targets on the ground or in the mountains and so on, how to accurately determine the target, filter out the clutter?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: AWACS main goal is to see the air, especially in low-flying air targets. Movement on the ground or stationary targets, early warning is not read. Americans have engaged in the E-8 "co-star" system, in fact, is not called early warning aircraft. Aerial targets can be both in the sea, over land may also, from sea or land clutter is the radar echo. Although the sea clutter is weaker than the land clutter, but their strength may be stronger than the echo from the target of hundreds of thousands of times or even more, if by echo intensity to distinguish between clutter will cover the target. In order to have anti-noise ability, have adopted the modern early-warning radar pulse Doppler technology, the use of targets and clutter (ground or sea) relative to the speed of the different early warning aircraft to the target and clutter separate. For the E-8 such a system, and early warning aircraft contrary, the echo from the aircraft is to be filtered out, the echo from the ground is needed. It does this by synthetic aperture radar system on the ground imaging, early warning aircraft is on the pulse Doppler radar system.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: in the development of early warning aircraft and other military electronic equipment, more time, EMC is a major problem, how to handle this problem? China doing?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: about electromagnetic compatibility problems, people first thought is probably the EP-3 electronic reconnaissance aircraft. But in fact on the early warning aircraft electromagnetic compatibility problems are more complex, mainly on the early warning radar early warning aircraft, such high-power, high sensitivity of the device. In addition, the AWACS electronic surveillance tasks than more, so the types of electronic equipment is also more. It should be said to the troops of air marshals on behalf of 2000, shows that we have completely overcome this problem. 200 air marshals back to go in and ZDK03, so it is not a technical problem the. From the technical means, the roughly frequency isolation, spatial isolation, polarization isolation and temporal isolation 4 main ways. Frequency of isolation is to try different electronic devices work at different frequencies. Because different when you have electronic devices in the receiver frequency selectivity, that is, the signals of different frequencies have different amplification or inhibition, therefore, may be weakened signal into an electronic device to another electronic device causing the interference. Spatial isolation refers to the different electronic devices in space as a sufficient distance apart. As the radio signal attenuation of power with distance, so even if there is interference, then the interference signal interference device into the receiver, its strength has been very weak. Polarization isolation is a different antenna polarization to maximize the use of different parameters. Polarization refers to the electromagnetic field propagation in the direction of the electric field changes. Different receivers for different polarization of electromagnetic radiation may have a different reception. Time isolation, it is so different devices sharing the work, which is the most thorough method of electromagnetic compatibility. However, each device can not work, will definitely affect the overall combat effectiveness of the electronic system to play.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: this seems to solve the problem of electromagnetic compatibility is still a lot of ways, then, why do we have agreed that this issue is a major engineering difficulties early warning?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: The most important reason is that the application of these methods may often suffer a variety of factors. Such as the frequency of isolation, many of the existing early warning electronic equipment on its working band often has been designed not modifiable. HF radio communication is often or V / UHF bands, secondary radar and "TACAN" navigation system is L-band. Even if Li Lunshang band can choose equipment, such as radar, the frequency band of choice is often limited by many other conditions, may not only from the perspective of electromagnetic compatibility selected. Furthermore, early warning aircraft is very limited on space, and a lot of equipment and layout can not be everywhere at random and, therefore, a variety of sources to make certain the layout of spatial isolation is very difficult. In the polarized segregation, a common restriction is that the radar, for example, it observed the ground or sea, in a polarized, its reflective properties weaker, less easy to clutter the radar receiver, but This feature may be in conjunction with the electromagnetic compatibility conflict. It is even so many conflicting factors interact to increase the early-warning aircraft electromagnetic compatibility issues to resolve the difficulty. This requires good computer simulation in the design prediction and calculation and analysis, electrical properties of devices made many specific regulatory requirements, and fully carry out the test, adjust the parameters of the system and so on.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: radar and other equipment cooling is an important issue, especially in Pakistan or the Middle East as a hot environment, the means might be taken to improve what? Space and cooling equipment accounted for the weight of life?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: Radar is a big power, airborne early warning radar transmitter peak power of up to several hundred kilowatts. For phased array early warning radar, if a passive phased array, the heat from the bulk of two parts: one is concentrated on the early warning aircraft cabin-style transmitter, the other is on the top of the hood of the phase shift device. Placed in the cabin of the centralized transmitter as much heat, such as forced air cooling fan hair is not enough, the general method of liquid cooling. The top cover of the phase shifter can be used to force air cooling, liquid cooling can also be used. For active phased array early warning radar, cabin fever is basically no large, decentralized on hundreds of transmitters in the transceiver components. These components are in the top cover, if the power is larger, definitely use the liquid, such as air marshals 2000. If power is not, you can use air-cooled, for example, 200 air marshals. We can see the front and rear balance beam has holes, that is used to send and receive components of the cooling air inlet and outlet. In addition to the use of appropriate cooling method, the research or the use of the new equipment must be to make the device's storage temperature and operating temperature must be able to adapt to the local user requirements. The cost of the equipment cooling, the cooling system to current technology level, the heat probably increased by 1.2 per kilowatt to 1.5 kg of weight. If you need to heat 200 kilowatts, you need to gain weight around 300 kg.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Q: You mentioned earlier, phased array radar has become the trend, but the phased array radar antenna and the antenna than the traditional mechanical scanning, there are some inherent disadvantages. The disadvantages?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: Phased array radar antenna and conventional antenna compared to the main problem is that the antenna performance will increase with the beam scan angle worsened, while the traditional antenna will not have this problem. This is because, for the phased array antenna, the antenna array when the scan angle deviation from the surface normal, the beam is not perpendicular to the surface with the antenna array, and play a decisive role on the antenna performance and the beam is perpendicular to the antenna area, known as the effective area. Partial scan angle normal to the front on both sides of 60 °, the effective area is only half of the whole area, the antenna performance will seriously deteriorate to the extent not used, this is a phased array antenna is generally only around the 60 ° scan range truth. And because the traditional antenna and antenna array beam is always perpendicular to the surface, so the antenna performance has always played a decisive role in all of the antenna area. Deterioration of the antenna performance includes two aspects, one main lobe of fat, which is the antenna gain reduction, because the main lobe is emitted from the antenna wave energy in space the most concentrated area, the wider the main lobe, indicating that this region more energy less, which are crucial for the radar beam is projected onto the farther detrimental. Second, the side lobe is too high, Ye Hao understand this, because the total energy emitted from the antenna is certain, contained in the main lobe in less energy, natural energy to go on the side lobe in more.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: So, phased array antennas in these two areas there are ways to overcome the lack of it? So, is the traditional antennas will not be fully eliminated?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: the performance worsening in these two areas, the main lobe of fat can also be prone to make up for a few radar pulses. Because phased array radar beam scanning can be electronically controlled, allowing the beam sweep faster, you can scan more slowly. Sweep more slowly when the beam scan passing the target, the longer the time to stay, that is, the more pulses emitted, the energy will come back more, so that the antenna gain to make up due to falling energy reduction. However, the sidelobe elevation can not solve this problem, but its impact will be more serious, because sidelobe distribution in all directions, will be irradiated to the ground, it will increase the intensity of ground clutter, which the anti-clutter negative. So, in general, anti-mechanical scanning radar clutter capability will be better. As the traditional antenna will not be eliminated, I think not as it lies in two aspects: First, not all radar tasks are required to solve the phased array, mechanical scanning radar, low cost, easy to use, many cases have been enough; second, can the advantages of the traditional antenna combined with phased array.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: You just mentioned can be traditional phased array antenna and antenna combined, the European C-295 AWACS Radar design is by rotating radome integrated with phased array antenna design, the diameter radome certain circumstances, an antenna can be installed along the diameter, length can be increased accordingly, in order to install more transmit / receive modules, and therefore has more power, more flexible scanning, improved version of the U.S. E-2C has the idea. You speak with such a vision is not a meaning?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: Yes. C-295 and E-2C are disc form. If the use of phased array to achieve full coverage, at least three front, can these two AWACS aircraft carrier aircraft are small, allowing the disc size is not significant, C-295 was 6 m, E -2C and its improved version of E-2D was 7 meters. Cover the same size circular arrangement of three antennas in the front, compared to the layout of a front only, that is, rotating antenna, there is no doubt that three front antenna size will be smaller. The small size of the antenna after the detection range is not enough. Rotating antenna has the advantage of antenna size can be larger, and anti-noise performance, but can not scan as fast as flexible phased array. So, what can the combination of both? Yes, this combination is called "machine-phase scanning." As a result of the phased array scanning mode, multiple pulses can reduce the scan cycle, detection range can be further increased.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Q: Can you further explain how the mechanical scanning is combined with phased array scan work?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: The E-2D, for example, rotating radar antenna in the process, if there are threats that target a certain direction, you need to immediately re-target irradiated with a beam, the beam can be used for computer-controlled flyback, to overcome the mere mechanical scan observed the target again in a circle until only after weaknesses. Of course, the angle of sweep back to normal on both sides of the antenna will not exceed 60 ° range. And if you only need to observe, rather than the whole 120 ° airspace airspace, the antenna can not rotate, only phased array manner.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Q: After listening to your introduction, we know that the disc-shaped AWACS radar there are three, one is like an air marshal 2000 so that only phased array scanning, and one is like the United States and Russia, E-3 A-50 only mechanical scan, there is a C-295 and E-2D phase sweep of this machine. So why use such a common type of radar disc? Conformal array proposed for many years, why so far only in the development of Israel's own?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: I think the problem involves disc-shaped, balance beam conformal array and the three main air AWACS configuration of choice. My general view is that the radar detection range to meet the requirements of the premise, the disc may be the best choice. If the distance in order to meet the requirements of the antenna can provide disk size is not enough, it would have to take some other form of radome. For example, the balance beam in the form, you can like the C-295 aircraft of this size to do the balance beam 9 meters in length, the use of conformal array form, can be in the "Gulf Stream" 550 aircraft of this size on the surface of the antenna array size to achieve 10 m × 2 m, this is the disc size can not be achieved. But do the large size of the antenna and may be at the expense of full performance for the price. Balance beam head and tail are blind; conformal array head and tail even though it can cover, but the distance is much closer. As for the disc, whether it is transferred, or does not turn, are able to meet the full requirements of uniform coverage, and disc compatibility is very good, as a disc, not only do the turn, but do do not turn, has two advantages.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: In order to make up the balance beam orientation blind, E-737 to install a cap, this can solve the problem the balance beam? Also, you mentioned that there are conformal array direction detection uneven, can you explain again?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: E-737 to increase the cap above the balance beam antennas, which beam injection direction is towards the nose and tail, and the work performance of the antenna beam, is the antenna in the direction of the nose and tail size, the size large, rather than the size of the wingspan direction, so better able to compensate for blind spots. This antenna beam injection direction and the plane parallel to the antenna, rather than the side of the radio antenna as the plane perpendicular to the antenna, known as the end-fire antenna. Our early when cable is not yet universal Yagi antenna is used in the first end-fire antenna. However, this antenna in the current technical level, the gain and the maximum scan angle can be achieved are still not the same side of radio antenna matching, so the nose and tail of the detection range will still be closer. The conformal array, the position detection was mainly due to uneven nose and tail that can be allowed to install the antenna size is much smaller than in the fuselage sides to the Boeing 707 "Phalcon" for example, the nose area of &#8203;&#8203;the antenna only 3 square meters and more, only the side of the antenna area of &#8203;&#8203;1 / 6. Of course, in the case of smaller antennas, the radar can work up to make up for the shorter wavelengths, so that is also able to gain the post. So, then Israel has engaged in a "sea eagle" conformal array early warning radar antenna at the head end, the operating wavelength of 10 cm, while the fuselage on both sides of the radar wavelength of 25 cm. But even if to do so, as a multiple of the wavelength difference is not entirely compensate for differences in a multiple antenna area, so the full range of detection is not balanced.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: now disc-shaped AWACS radar is still widely used, and the nascent disc-shaped AWACS phased array in direction to the development, then the mechanical scanning of US-Russian early warning aircraft, there may be disc shaped by technological innovation to make up some of the disadvantages of modern ?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: Let me talk about the United States. Disc-shaped early warning aircraft from the U.S. Navy's E-2C mechanical scanning to improve the E-2D, which is the active phased array with mechanical scanning of new things, a great influence on E-2C can no longer be seen as an upgrade, and is a new model. U.S. Air Force E-3 AWACS, radar, have not seen its like to change the active phased array of reports, but it also made some improvements, such as increasing the transmission power, improved waveform design, the use of new devices to reduce processing losses, etc. measures to increase the detection range of more than 80%. At the same time the system has also done a lot of improvements, including the use of new broadband data link, enhanced battlefield situational multi-source data fusion and the formation of software improvements, etc., the latest upgrade model E-3G. Russian A-50 early warning aircraft will have to be replaced by A-100, IL-76 from its carrier aircraft Il-476 instead, will use radar active phased array.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: the Russian A-100 will use what kind of configuration it?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: There is no more to see the relevant reports. I personally think that the possibility of using disk configuration to be larger. On the one hand, Il-476 and IL-76 in the basic aerodynamic layout similar to the high wing aircraft is not likely to use conformal array. On the other hand, IL-76 on the disc-shaped configuration is very mature, IL-76 Israeli exports to India, "Phalcon" and Russia's own A-50, all of this configuration. The array is made of three sides made of single or array, depending on how much power is required. If you want to meet for small aircraft is about 400 kilometers away from the discovery request, even if the array should be enough on three sides, and this distance is compared to A-50 has improved a lot. If you want to improve the discovery of the ability of stealth aircraft, the possibility of using machine-phase scanning large. Of course, if the power increase again, you should use another type of structure.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: Now everyone is concerned about aircraft carriers early warning aircraft. China's existing fixed-wing aircraft platforms, slippery little for flying leaps, like the transport -12 as the maximum takeoff weight of 5.3 tons, a maximum payload of 1.7 tons of aircraft carrier-based AWACS could change it? Win -7 maximum takeoff weight of 21 tons that, load 4.7 tons of aircraft can serve as early warning aircraft carrier catapult to carry it?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: E-2 maximum takeoff weight of 26 tons, is equipped with the first 80,000-ton aircraft carrier. China is now the platform for the 60,000-ton aircraft carrier, but even so, transport -12 is still too small. China-made aircraft in operation and is more close to -7 E-2. But to note that the maximum takeoff weight shipped -7 is 21 tons, E-2 C-2A carrier machine to light a lot, have to a large number of captains and wingspan. Therefore, the carrier transport -7 and adaptation of them to be more difficult to achieve. And C-2 is specifically developed for the early warning aircraft on the ship, the fitting with the carrier to do a lot of special design, such as folding wings, radomes leg lift, and so highly. If the operation -7 as a ready-made AWACS aircraft to change, probably had to use these designs, along with other measures of the modification, the resulting design changes may be less than the workload developed a new type of adapter carrier aircraft, the basic parameters may be changed greatly. Nevertheless, in the absence of better conditions for the platform, I personally think -7 operation may still be an important choice.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: equipment for various reasons can not be the case of fixed-wing AWACS, the use of performance on the early warning helicopters and fixed-wing AWACS much difference?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: carrier-based early warning helicopter ceiling is much lower than fixed-wing AWACS. If the fixed-wing AWACS ceiling in 8,000 meters of sea-flying aircraft affixed, the maximum sight distance of 370 km or so; and early warning helicopters ceiling of 4,000 meters, the maximum sight distance is only 250 km or so. And because it is the body is small, fewer personnel, command and control capabilities should be much weaker. But its fundamental value is that the ground was able to overcome or shipboard radar line of sight from the past, low-flying target detection for only three to four kilometers from the defects, the effective low-level raid against the enemy, which is important for fleet air defense. In addition, it uses a flexible, space requirements for the carrier's relatively low, the cost is cheap, equipment, number of fixed-wing AWACS can be a lot more than that. Also, a variety of tactical operations from the sea to be considered, the helicopter's radar early warning function of the general functions than a simple early-warning radar to many, including imaging of the sea, beacon, anti-submarine and meteorological early warning. Therefore, early warning helicopters and fixed wing AWACS with one hand, the completion of some areas of the low-altitude warning radar command guidance and a small amount of the task, the other can perform in addition to radar warning and command guidance other than the Navy's unique operational mission.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Note: There are three radar early warning helicopters mounted way, namely, the British "Neptune," the Ministry of the machine body side retractable tube, the Russian card -31 abdomen retractable panels, France's "Super Puma" retractable rear cylinder. The layout of each of these three characteristics?
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Cao: three on the whole layout is retractable, because if we adopt the fixed antenna structure may be difficult to have the installation conditions. For example, as did the fixed-wing AWACS antenna fixed to the upper body and elevated obviously not, because the rotor. The idea of &#8203;&#8203;trying to get a large enough area of &#8203;&#8203;the antenna in the case, in the end what kind of mounting means need to combine all aspects of machine set to set. The layout of these three aircraft to compare card -31 abdomen obtained retractable antenna plate area is the largest, reaching 6 m × 1 m. Of course, the antenna can do much, but also the size of the helicopter itself.
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;Reporter: Thank you for the interview.


http://i2.sinaimg.cn/jc/2012-01-11/U6449P27T1D679843F3DT20120111090520.jpeg


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## Mani2020

^^^^

do you think any person in his sanity will even attempt to read the stuff you have posted above?? its like preparing for exams...so lengthy

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## HANI

Mani2020 said:


> ^^^^
> 
> do you think any person in his sanity will even attempt to read the stuff you have posted above?? its like preparing for exams...so lengthy


110% agreed


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## Peaceful Civilian

Mani2020 said:


> ^^^^
> 
> do you think any person in his sanity will even attempt to read the stuff you have posted above?? its like preparing for exams...so lengthy


Dude lots of information. Love to read this. Enjoyed 45 minutes for this beautiful article.
Agreed complex but enjoyable.

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## Donatello

Mani2020 said:


> ^^^^
> 
> do you think any person in his sanity will even attempt to read the stuff you have posted above?? its like preparing for *exams*...so lengthy



Mani,

If this compares to your preparation of exams (i don't know which type and for what ), then you seriously need to up your game.

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## Sapper

Mani2020 said:


> ^^^^
> 
> do you think any person in his sanity will even attempt to read the stuff you have posted above?? its like preparing for exams...so lengthy



Dear,

I consider this Very Good information, and very informative, but a bit complex because its just a translation and prose is broken.

Considering that i went through the entire Pilot's Guide of F16-MLU (~250+ pages), just to find if they supported 600 Gallon Fuel-Tanks, this was actually very light reading, and would love to read some more authentic information, if presented. To me finding facts and presenting facts is FUN. For most members in this forum, Slandering and Rumors are fun, not for me.

Regards,
Sapper

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## air marshal



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## Imran Khan

air marshal said:


>




sir gee take camera from me or i will buy it for you? make more and more zoom then take it


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## air marshal

Imran Khan said:


> sir gee take camera from me or i will buy it for you? make more and more zoom then take it


Sir gee, this was a trailer  hold breath and wait for second post...

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## air marshal



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## unicorn

Saw it over nazimabad underpass today.It was looking truly magnificent in the sky.
Have a good long stare on it the radome didn't appears to be rotating when I see it.


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## SQ8

unicorn said:


> Saw it over nazimabad underpass today.It was looking truly magnificent in the sky.
> Have a good long stare on it the radome didn't appears to be *rotating when I see it*.



Only done if sortie requires it.. when its not transmitting it does rotate but VERY VERY slowly to keep the bearings lubricated and running.

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## Arsalan

the ZDK do not have an AESA radar.
what about the EriEye,, is that also PESA??


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## Emmie

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the ZDK do not have an AESA radar.
> what about the EriEye,, is that also PESA??



Actually both platforms are equipped with AESA..

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## Donatello

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the ZDK do not have an AESA radar.
> what about the EriEye,, is that also PESA??



Arsalan, 

How did you miss that? Man, the last few pages have been precisely on this discussion that both PAF's AWACs platforms are AESA.

ZDK 03 has the arrays in rotating dome, whereas Erieye has it in static housing. However, the Erieye has 60 degree field view, from perpendicular to either side. We don't know yet how much the ZDK-03 has, but Sapper last stated it might be 75 degrees either side. So keep checking. I actually find this thread very useful.


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## SQ8

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the ZDK do not have an AESA radar.
> what about the EriEye,, is that also PESA??



ZDK has a hybrid.. AESA scanning in the vertical..which provides something of a 90 degree cone.. that is rotated 360 by the disk.
Erieye is an AESA system.


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## Sapper

penumbra said:


> Arsalan,
> 
> How did you miss that? Man, the last few pages have been precisely on this discussion that both PAF's AWACs platforms are AESA.
> 
> ZDK 03 has the arrays in rotating dome, whereas Erieye has it in static housing. However, the Erieye has 60 degree field view, from perpendicular to either side. We don't know yet how much the ZDK-03 has, but Sapper last stated it might be 75 degrees either side. So keep checking. I actually find this thread very useful.



Dear,

A bit of correction required, since presented information is being attributed to me.

1. Erieye uses AESA 75 deg on either side of perpendicular, meaning 75+75 = 150 deg on one side, 150 deg on the otherside, totaling 300 degree of total instantaneous coverage on both sides. Information is extracted from Erieye Brochures, and is confirmed since it is based on manufacturer's claims.

2. ZDK-03 must have atleast 60 deg on either side of perpendicular, meaning 120 deg cone, atleast. Information is a guess from my side as Chinese KJ2000 and KJ200 have AESA with atleast the same specs, but it could be higher. I have no hard evidence to support this because Chinese AESA have not been formally presented in any brochures etc. I am still looking for evidences regarding this, but so far no hard evidence.

Regards,
Sapper

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## Jango

penumbra said:


> Arsalan,
> 
> How did you miss that? Man, the last few pages have been precisely on this discussion that both PAF's AWACs platforms are AESA.
> 
> ZDK 03 has the arrays in rotating dome, whereas Erieye has it in static housing. However, the Erieye has 60 degree field view, from perpendicular to either side. We don't know yet how much the ZDK-03 has, but Sapper last stated it might be 75 degrees either side. So keep checking. I actually find this thread very useful.



This is a very informative and researchers' thread.


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## Donatello

Sapper said:


> Dear,
> 
> A bit of correction required, since presented information is being attributed to me.
> 
> 1. Erieye uses AESA 75 deg on either side of perpendicular, meaning 75+75 = 150 deg on one side, 150 deg on the otherside, totaling 300 degree of total instantaneous coverage on both sides. Information is extracted from Erieye Brochures, and is confirmed since it is based on manufacturer's claims.
> 
> 2. ZDK-03 must have atleast 60 deg on either side of perpendicular, meaning 120 deg cone, atleast. Information is a guess from my side as Chinese KJ2000 and KJ200 have AESA with atleast the same specs, but it could be higher. I have no hard evidence to support this because Chinese AESA have not been formally presented in any brochures etc. I am still looking for evidences regarding this, but so far no hard evidence.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper




Yes, that is why i mentioned you. Good info. Let's hope the ZDK-03 specs remain shrouded in mystery. Keeping your enemy guessing in this electronic warfare age, is of utmost importance.

I wish there was a way in which we could tag other members to call them in on specific posts.....akin to the Facebook tagging concept.

Maybe Webby can come up with an idea?


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## Emmie

Santro said:


> ZDK has a hybrid.. AESA scanning in the vertical..which provides something of a 90 degree cone.. that is rotated 360 by the disk.
> Erieye is an AESA system.



Can same be said for Elta C-295 ?


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## SQ8

Emmie said:


> Can same be said for Elta C-295 ?



Nope.. AESA scanning both in vertical and horizontal.. around the estimate sapper has made of 150-160 cone..
Less of a gap in the radar picture..

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## VelocuR

air marshal said:


>



Look great, I am curious the tail's wings in the backside, what does that mean?


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## MZUBAIR

RaptorRX707 said:


> Look great, I am curious the tail's wings in the backside, what does that mean?



May be its for submarine search


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## SQ8

MZUBAIR said:


> May be its for submarine search



Nope.. nothing do with submarines or even sensors.
If the two additional vertical stabs are what is being pointed out then these are there to cancel out aerodynamic forces that occur due to the addition of the external attachment known as the rotating radome.

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## untitled

MZUBAIR said:


> May be its for submarine search



Those extra vertical stabilizers are added as the radar mounted on the top of the fuselage disturbs the aerodynamics of the aircraft and one vertical stabilizer is not sufficient

Other aircraft with such empennages are

Antonov An-225






Shuttle Carrier Aircraft

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## VelocuR

Santro said:


> Nope.. nothing do with submarines or even sensors.
> If the two additional vertical stabs are what is being pointed out then these are there to cancel out aerodynamic forces that occur due to the addition of the external attachment known as the rotating radome.



Interesting, I see. Similarly to other AWACS with different designs of vertical stability or Elevators.





















To me, these additional Vertical stability in ZDK (Pakistani AWACs) design is not accurate or weird, maybe engineers know the best.


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## untitled

RaptorRX707 said:


> To me, these additional Vertical stability in ZDK (Pakistani AWACs) design is not accurate or weird, maybe engineers know the best.








Even the Mexican Air Force Embraer R-99 Has it. It does not even have a rotating radar. They add extra stability

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## VelocuR

pdf_shurtah said:


> Even the Mexican Air Force Embraer R-99 Has it. It does not even have a rotating radar. They add extra stability



These carry a high ammount of antennas, arrays and sensoring equipment on the tail. Alot of Antennas.


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## nomi007

HANI said:


> 110% agreed


what are you doing here
selling samosas

---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------




RaptorRX707 said:


> Look great, I am curious the tail's wings in the backside, what does that mean?


in which city zdk are


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## SQ8

RaptorRX707 said:


> These carry a high ammount of antennas, arrays and sensoring equipment on the tail. Alot of Antennas.



Take a look at the Saab Erieye...
It just depends on the platform and the placement of sensors which cause the aerodynamic anomalies.


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## Emmie

nomi007 said:


> what are you doing here
> selling samosas
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------
> 
> 
> in which city zdk are



Mentioned many times in this thread.... Anyways, ZDK-03 are based in Karachi.

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## fatman17

*Saab unveils maritime mode for Erieye radar*

Tim Ripley Correspondent - London



Saab is developing a sea surveillance mode for the Erieye radar system used on its airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. 

According to Mats Wicksell, the company's Head of Product Management Worldwide Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconaissance (WISR) Solutions, the radar mode will allow the Erieye radar to detect sea surface targets as small as jet skis and inflatable rubber boats. 

Wicksell revealed details of what he termed the "next evolution" of the Erieye - small sea target detection - at the IQPC Defence Airborne Early Warning & Battle Management 2012 conference in London on 17 January. 

The multimode Erieye radar seen fitted to a Saab 340 aircraft in a dorsal fairing. (Saab) 


Flight testing of the new radar mode had already been undertaken in Sweden, with development funded mainly by Saab with a contribution from the Swedish Ministry of Defence. It is understood that the development of the mode is based on the inclusion of software into the computers that control the multi-mode Erieye active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. 

He said the radar mode was intended to allow the Erieye to detect small sea targets out to around 350 km from the aircraft, in both littoral and blue water environments. 

Wicksell described long-range sea surveillance as a "new capability on the market". The information collected on the maritime environment by Erieye could be transmitted to other aircraft, ships and land-based command centres over NATO and national datalinks, he said. 

Saab has already sold the Erieye on a variety of Saab 340, 2000 and Embraer EMB-145 platforms to Brazil, Greece, Mexico, Pakistan, Sweden, Thailand, the United Arab Emirates and an unidentified country. The development of the sea surveillance mode is aimed at meeting requirements for future AEW&C platforms to have enhanced performance in the maritime domain.

_next upgrade for PAF Erieye's._

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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> *Saab unveils maritime mode for Erieye radar*
> 
> Tim Ripley Correspondent - London
> 
> 
> 
> Saab is developing a sea surveillance mode for the Erieye radar system used on its airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft.
> 
> According to Mats Wicksell, the company's Head of Product Management Worldwide Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconaissance (WISR) Solutions, the radar mode will allow the Erieye radar to detect sea surface targets as small as jet skis and inflatable rubber boats.
> 
> Wicksell revealed details of what he termed the "next evolution" of the Erieye - small sea target detection - at the IQPC Defence Airborne Early Warning & Battle Management 2012 conference in London on 17 January.
> 
> The multimode Erieye radar seen fitted to a Saab 340 aircraft in a dorsal fairing. (Saab)
> 
> 
> Flight testing of the new radar mode had already been undertaken in Sweden, with development funded mainly by Saab with a contribution from the Swedish Ministry of Defence. It is understood that the development of the mode is based on the inclusion of software into the computers that control the multi-mode Erieye active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.
> 
> He said the radar mode was intended to allow the Erieye to detect small sea targets out to around 350 km from the aircraft, in both littoral and blue water environments.
> 
> Wicksell described long-range sea surveillance as a "new capability on the market". The information collected on the maritime environment by Erieye could be transmitted to other aircraft, ships and land-based command centres over NATO and national datalinks, he said.
> 
> Saab has already sold the Erieye on a variety of Saab 340, 2000 and Embraer EMB-145 platforms to Brazil, Greece, Mexico, Pakistan, Sweden, Thailand, the United Arab Emirates and an unidentified country. The development of the sea surveillance mode is aimed at meeting requirements for future AEW&C platforms to have enhanced performance in the maritime domain.
> 
> _next upgrade for PAF Erieye's._



PAF is already walking on a very tight rope w.r.t finances, how could you say they can afford this Upgrade!


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## fatman17

mafiya said:


> PAF is already walking on a very tight rope w.r.t finances, how could you say they can afford this Upgrade!



its a logical progression if they opt for it


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## nomi007

when all saab 2000 are coming to pakistan
sources are saying we have only 2 saab at this time


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## nomi007

what is the NATO reporting name of zdk-03
NATO reporting name - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> what is the NATO reporting name of zdk-03
> NATO reporting name - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



not decided yet i think!


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## untitled

^^^ Probably not given one but for the An-12 it is *CUB*


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## SBD-3




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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Sino-Pakistan PAF ZDK-03 AWACS Karakoram Eagle*

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## Nishan_101

fatman17 said:


> *A Strategic Challenge In Chinas New Tactical Fighter Exports*
> 
> Richard D. Fisher, Jr., Senior Fellow, IASC
> 
> February 7, 2012
> 
> 
> As part of its campaign to build global strategic influence China is offering increasingly sophisticated weapons exports that it uses to reinforce important political and economic relationships. China is no longer a last resort supplier of cheap but obsolete weapons for isolated regimes; it can now offer a full range of weapons that are increasingly competitive with Western systems in capability and very competitive in terms of price. This increase in both capability and value is creating new weapons sales opportunities for China in non-traditional regions. This dynamic is starting to play out in Latin America, where Chinas success in selling inexpensive training aircraft and radar could lead to sales of more sophisticated air combat systems.
> 
> Chinas offering higher capability and greater value in combat aircraft exports is exemplified by the Chengdu FC-1 Xiaolong multirole (capable of offensive and defensive missions) lightweight fighter, a co-development/production program with Pakistan, where it is known as the JF-17 Thunder. In the FC-1, Chengdu is seeking to offer a new lightweight fighter that approaches the performance of Western 4th generation multi-role fighters like the Lockheed-Martin F-16, but which can be acquired for about one-third the cost. This price advantage is enhanced by Chinas willingness to offer favorable financing. In contrast to Western fighters like the F-16, the FC-1 offers a world-class capability at the beginning of its service life, with upgrades that likely will feature improved electronics, a new engine, and increased stealth features. When armed with advanced Chinese-made precision and stand-off weapons the FC-1 could prove a troublesome threat to U.S. forces and to those of its friends and allies.
> 
> Seen at the November 2011 Dubai Airshow, this model of the Chengdu FC-1 shows its multi-roll potential, being armed with 2x PL-12 medium range AAMs, one YJ-82K anti-ship missile and an electronic warfare pod. This view also shows the FC-1s latest airframe modifcations: large leading edge extensions (LERX) and diverterless supersonic intakes (DSI). Source: RD Fisher
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 2
> 
> While the FC-1 has not yet been sold beyond Pakistan it has attracted interest in Algeria, Azerbaijan, Bangladesh, Congo, Egypt, Iran, Nigeria, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Sudan and Zimbabwe. It has reportedly been considered by Venezuela, which has also purchased Chinese jet trainers, medium transport aircraft, and long-range radar. Sales success with Venezuela might influence other Latin states to consider the FC-1 or other Chinese combat aircraft. Such a development would enable China to develop deeper strategic relationships in the Western Hemisphere as well as strengthen its position to help insure the survival of anti-democratic/anti-U.S. regimes in the region.
> 
> In the past the U.S. sought to limit the sale of advanced weapons in the region, an ability that has eroded over the last two decades as Cold War tensions evaporated, U.S. focus on the region has waned, and Latin economies have grown. The Latin combat aircraft market has diversified as advanced combat aircraft and related technologies have been sold by Russian, European, Israeli and South African companies. As Latin states become more dependent commercially on Chinese markets, the purchase of Chinese weapons could become a critical part of their relationship with another superpower, one that lacks the regional historic baggage of the United States. If it is to limit growing Chinese military influence the U.S. may have to offer better positive incentives, such far less expensive yet capable weapons systems that could better compete with Chinas wares.
> 
> Chinas New Arms Exports
> As a result of 1998 military reforms that eschewed consolidation of its military design and production sector, in favor of enhancing competition, China is now able to offer world class and price competitive military systems from satellites to short-range ballistic missiles to submarines. Many new weapons are not acquired by the Peoples Liberation Army (PLA) but are offered for export. They are promoted more heavily by Chinas state-controlled arms export companies which have greatly increased their global profile by participating in major international arms exhibitions (Paris, Farnborough and IDEX in
> Venezuela may be on its way to purchasing close to 40x K-8 trainer and light attack aircraft. Here a Venezuelan K-8 is seen with PL-5 AAMsthe first such Chinese AAM export to Latin America.
> Source: Internet
> 
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 3
> Abu Dhabi), and increasingly, in smaller regional exhibits (Brazil, Chile, Malaysia, Peru and South Africa). China has significant incentive: arms sales are needed increasingly to subsidize its large and redundant arms sector.
> 
> Traditional Chinese customers, such as Pakistan and Iran, have been early purchasers of many new Chinese weapons. But since the middle of the last decade China has made more aggressive efforts to sell its new military systems in new markets, with an emphasis on Africa, the Middle East, Southeast Asia and Latin America. As has been the case with previous global powers, China has found that arms sales prospects tend to improve in regions where its economic and political influence is more established and increasingly accepted. To make their weapons more attractive Beijing is often ready to offer soft loans to subsidize its arms sales. Bolivias early 2011 $58 million purchase of Hongdu K-8 training/light attack jets was reportedly largely covered by a Chinese government loan.1
> 
> In terms of aerospace systems, China has had some success in marketing its communication satellites, and sold its first surveillance satellite to Venezuela in 2010. But not until recently has it been able to offer combat aircraft with world class capabilities. China is on the cusp of curtailing its reliance on Russian turbofan engines, but developing requisite foreign confidence in new Chinese engines may take several more years. China can also offer world-class radar and electronic systems, to include active electronically scanned array (AESA), fully glass cockpits and defensive electronics. It can also offer modern weapons, to include self-guided beyond visual range (BVR) and helmet-sighted air-to-air missiles (AAMs), laser and navigation satellite guided bombs, and long-range anti-ship and ground attack missiles. Chinese combat aircraft can be supported by two types of airborne warning and control (AWACS) aircraft. Fairly soon, these aircraft and weapons will also be supported by Chinas Compass global navigation satellite system, giving them very high precision. In addition,
> 
> In May 2011 Bolivian President Juan Evo Morales welcomed the delivery of Hongdu K-8 trainers to the Bolivian Air Force.
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 4
> 
> China can offer sophisticated long-range radar and 4th generation surface-to-air missiles to complete an air defense network.
> 
> Chengdus FC-1 Lightweight Fighter Program
> The FC-1 program emerged from the Chengdu Aircraft Corporations desire to develop a follow-on lightweight fighter to its J-7 family, and Pakistans desire for greater self-sufficiency in combat aircraft. This program also tracked with Indias effort from the mid-1980s to build an indigenous modern lightweight fighter to succeed its Soviet-designed MiG-21 fleet, later called the Tejas. Ironically, the eventual FC-1/JF-17 design began as a 1984 cooperative program between Pakistan, China and the U.S. Grumman Corporation to develop a much improved version of the Chengdu J-7M called Project Sabre II.2 Its major modification was a redesigned fuselage with side-mounted engine air intakes to allow a larger radar to be placed in the nose. Pakistan withdrew from this program in early 1989, so Grumman sought to continue it with the China National Aero Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC), and it was renamed the Super-7. This phase saw further refinements to the fuselage and wing that took it closer to the final FC-1 design. But Grummans participation ended following the George H.W. Bush Administrations imposition of arms sanctions following the June 1989 Tiananmen Massacre.
> 
> However this did not stop this program. During the 1990s three developments lifted the FC-1 to success. First, the program was joined by engineers from the Russian Mikoyan concern, who provided further design refinements and helped with the integration of a new engine, the Klimov RD-33, called RD-93 in its variant for the FC-1. A second development was that Chengdu started to apply lessons learned from its J-10 4th generation fighter program to the design of the FC-1. This effort was led by Dr. Yang Wei, who has gained more recent fame as the Chief Designer of Chengdus J-20 5th generation fighter, but who is still very involved with the FC-1 program. The J-10, in turn, benefitted from numerous Russian and Israeli design inputs plus the use of French CATIA digital design programming. The first FC-1 prototype flew in September 2003,
> 
> A JF-17/FC-1 fighter on display at the 2011 Dubai Airshow, with a selection of anti-air and anti-surface weapons. Source: RD Fisher
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 5
> 
> about five years after the first flight of the J-10 in March 1998. The definitive 4th prototype, with a redesigned wing with larger leading root extensions (LERX) and diverter-less supersonic intakes (DSI) for the engine, first flew in May 2006.
> 
> A third development was especially crucial given that PLA has so far opted not to acquire the FC-1: a 1998 agreement in which Pakistan became a 50/50 development partner and the first major co-producer of this fighter. Pakistans participation provided much needed financial support and turned the FC-1/JF-17 into Chinas most advanced combat aircraft technology transfer program as well, a critical consideration for many states looking to upgrade or sustain their domestic combat aircraft production capability.3 In March 2007 the first JF-17s were delivered to Pakistan and the first batch of 42 began co-production at the Kamara factory in 2009, with delivery expected by early 2012. While sources differ, it is possible that Pakistan could eventually purchase 250 to 300 JF-17 fighters in multiple versions, or Blocks, along with a twin-seat version.
> 
> Impressive Capability for the Price
> In the FC-1 Chengdu has not chosen to emphasize dominant performance, but has sought to combine an impressive multi-role capability with a more impressive price. It does so first by aiming for a lower weight class, 12-13 tons vice the 20+ tons for the F-16 and comparable 4th generation fighters. The FC-1 also cuts costs by accepting a lower 8-to-8.5G airframe maneuverability stress, which is very good, but slightly less than the 9G design stress for the F-16. While the F-16 can carry twice the payload of the FC-1, this advantage is ameliorated by the high accuracy of smaller Chinese precision-guided weapons. For air combat missions they have a very similar range and, like the F-16, later versions of the FC-1 will be equipped for aerial refueling to extend their range. In short, the FC-1 is not an F-16, but it approaches that performance for a lower price, providing an attractive option for states that cannot afford new F-16s, or would be denied them by Washington. For Pakistan, the FC-1/JF-17 allows an efficient maintenance of a large number of capable fighters to sustain an aerial deterrent of India, but perhaps for poorer countries like Bolivia the FC-1 could enable easier access to an effective air combat capability.
> 
> Airframe. To keep costs down the FC-1 makes minimum use of expensive composite materials, relying mainly on aluminum, which also eases maintenance costs. The FC-1 only uses expensive digital fly-by-wire control technology in the pitch axis, which better exploits the wings large LERX structures, to provide a better center of gravity and allow the LERX to increase lift at high angles of attack to improve combat maneuverability. The air intake was redesigned to feature a diverterless supersonic intake (DSI), the second fighter to do so after the Lockheed-Martin F-35; this offers a simpler and lighter structure for reducing the speed of air going to the engine, and it has stealth benefits.
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 6
> 
> Electronics. While Pakistan had at one point sought the Italian Grifo radar for the JF-17, it settled on the Chinese Nanjing Institute of Electronics Research Technology (NRIET) KLJ-7 radar, a smaller version of the radar used by the J-10A. This multimode (air-to-air and air-to-ground) X-Band radar has an advertised range of about 105km in the air-to-air mode, can track 10 targets simultaneously, and then attack two targets simultaneously4 with self-guided BVR AAMs. Though an early 1990s level of capability for the U.S., it remains a respectable capability for the price. The cockpit features three modern multi-function digital displays and the pilot has an option for a helmet-mounted-sight (HMS), which can aim off-boresight AAMs, although Chinese sources say a more complex helmet-mounted display (HMD) may be available.5 For ground attack the FC-1 can carry an electro-optic targeting pod to guide laser or navigation satellite guided munitions. The FC-1 uses a stabilizer-mounted pod for defensive electronics and can carry a dedicated electronic warfare pod under its wing.
> 
> Engine. The heart of the FC-1 is a single 18,973 lb (8.5-ton) thrust Klimov RD-93, a modified version of the RD-33 engine developed for the MiG-29 fighter. As with the J-10, the lack of an adequate Chinese engine forced an early reliance on a Russian engine, which in the recent past has threatened the FC-1 program. In 2008 it appeared that India tried to use its leverage as a large MiG-29 customer to convince Russia not to allow RD-93 sales to Pakistan. Nevertheless, Chinas Guizhou Aeroengine Company has been developing a 9.5-ton thrust turbofan sometimes called the WS-13. In 2010 this engine was revealed to have an axisymetric thrust vectoring system. Reports indicate that a FC-1 with a Chinese engine started tests in March 2010.6 A Chinese source has suggested more information about this engine would emerge in 2012.7 The new Chinese engine will likely require a few more years of refinements before it can be offered for export, but its advent will make FC-1/JF-17 a truly viable export program free from threats of Russian engine denial.
> 
> The NRIET KLJ-7 radar is derived from that used by the Chengdu J-10A fighter, and has an air-to-air range of about 105km.
> Source: Chengdu Aircraft Co. via RD Fisher
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 7
> 
> Weapons. The FC-1s ability to employ modern Chinese weapons is a significant equalizer with competing aircraft in its class. For example, use of a helmet-sighted AAM can quickly compensate for a marginal deficiency in aircraft maneuverability because targeting the AAM is not dependent on aircraft maneuvering, but simply the ability of the pilot to see the target. Chinas Luoyang PL-8 and PL-9C AAMs are equipped for helmet sighting. The long expected Luoyang PL-10 short range AAM will feature higher off-boresight and maneuvering capability, perhaps approaching that of modern Western AAMs like the Raytheon AIM-9X and the British ASRAAM. Luoyangs PL-12 active-guided BVR AAM has a range estimated to approach 100km, which may exceed that of the Russian Vympel R-77 and that of early versions of the Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM. In many scenarios this could give the FC-1 the crucial first shot that could determine the air engagement outcome. The FC-1 recently began flight tests with two 200km range YJ-83K anti-ship cruise missiles, and has also been seen flying with the Luoyang LS-6 satellite-guided glide bomb. Chinese companies Luoyang and CASIC produce two families of laser and satellite-guided bombs, to include very small satellite guided bombs, allowing the FC-1 to conduct precision strikes like modern Western fighters.
> 
> In November 2010 the Gas Turbine Establishment revealed this 9.5-ton thrust turbofan, which could be the WS-13 long reported under development by the Guizhou Aeroengine Company. This engine would turn the FC-1 into a fully viable export program
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 8
> 
> Price. Perhaps the main reason that many non-traditional Chinese customers may consider the FC-1 is its bargain price. The FC-1 is most often said to cost $15 to $25 million per plane, which compares to $70+ million for a late model F-16 Block 52. Such price quotes are not definitive as it is not known if they reflect unit cost or program costs (spare parts, weapons and training). In addition to already mentioned aspects, the FC-1s cost has also benefited from an
> efficient test program that included only four prototype aircraft and Pakistans willingness to have early service JF-17s as part of an extended test program. Due to self-contained diagnostic equipment, many FC-1 components require only as needed maintenance, which can also reduce life-cycle cost.
> 
> Perhaps the FC-1s main price-range competition would be used F-16s. A 2009 sale of upgraded Dutch F-16s to Chile came to about $15 million per plane,8 whereas a 2010 U.S. F-16 sale to Romania came to about $30 million per plane.9 But the FC-1 will be a new fighter with up to date electronics, cockpit systems and weapons, plus a 4,000 hour service life ahead of it. The used F-16 may require expensive electronics and weapons upgrades to become competitive and its airframe may require extensive overhauling in order to extend its remaining service life hours.
> 
> Chengdu FC-1 seen with the C-802AK attack missile, the SD-10A AAM and the LS-6 navsat-guided glide bomb at the 2011 Dubai Airshow (top). In November 2011 the FC-1 was seen over Chengdu flying with YJ-83K anti-ship missile shapes to validate their aerodynamic compatibility.
> Source: RD Fisher and Chinese Internet.
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 9
> 
> The used F-16, however, would offer a commanding advantage in terms of logistics. Over 4,450 F-16s have been built for 26 air forces around the world. A recent U.S. Air Force decision to pursue a $9.4 million apiece upgrade for 300 late model F-16s may extend their service life to 2030.
> 
> 10 This means that the U.S. Air Force can remain a logistic and training anchor available to other air forces operating F-16s  a very important sales advantage. So far the PLA has resisted becoming a similar anchor customer for the FC-1, despite much urging by Pakistan and Chengdu. However, this could change once the FC-1 gains a proven Chinese-made engine and receives additional upgrades. While Pakistan may purchase a large number JF-17s and thus be able to offer effective logistical support, the fragility of Pakistans politics may prompt a preference for such support from China.
> 
> There are other competitors in this weight class. The most viable is the 13-ton SAAB Grippen canard single-engine multi role fighter, which has scored export success with Czechoslovakia, Hungary, South Africa, Switzerland and Thailand. Though a capable platform, the Grippen is also quite expensive with price estimates ranging from $80 to $100 million per plane. Another potential competitor would be the 13-ton Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, though it may require more development before it can be exported. One price estimate held the Tejas might cost about $30 million per plane, but a recent decision to upgrade the Tejas Mk 2 to the more powerful General Electric F414-GE-INS6 turbofan may increase its cost. The Mikoyan MiG-29 is another 20-ton fighter that sold at about $30 million apiece to Myanmar in 2009.11 However, declining orders for the MiG-29 have raised questions about the future survival of this company.
> 
> Upgrades. At the November 2011 Dubai Airshow, Pakistani and Chinese briefers outlined suggested upgrades for the FC-1/JF-17. An initial Block 2 version could have upgraded avionics, better weapons and a new aerial refueling probe. It is less clear whether Block 2 will feature a new radar, perhaps a smaller version of the new NRIET active electronically scanned array (ASEA) radar that equips the Chengdu J-10B fighter. But this may be used by a later Block, and by this time a Chinese-made engine would
> 
> During the November 2001 Dubai Airshow, Chengdu Aircraft Co. Chief Designer Yang Wei explained that an early planned upgrade for the FC-1 will be the addition of an aerial refueling probe.
> Source: Chengdu Aircraft Co. via RD Fisher
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 10
> 
> likely be available. There are suggestions that Guizhou may be developing an improved 10-ton thrust version of its engine for the FC-1. It is not clear that an axisymmetric thrust vectoring system would be consistent with the FC-1s design priority to limit cost, but it remains an option that would improve maneuverability and take-off performance. The advent of Indias Tejas Mk 2 could prompt Pakistan to consider a better engine for future Blocks of the JF-17. A Pakistani briefer suggested that a twin-seat version of the FC-1/JF-17 could emerge by 2013-2014.
> 
> 12 This would allow FC-1 to have a conversion trainer that could also be included in FC-1 units to reduce the usage of single seat fighters, extending their service lives. In 2004 a Pakistani official suggested that a twin-seat FC-1 could also be developed into a dedicated attack version.13
> 
> Force Multipliers. While many countries could opt to purchase only FC-1 fighters, there are many force multipliers available from China to increase their overall capability. Firstly, the FC-1 will be supported by Chinas future 30+ Compass navigation satellite constellation, expected to be in place later this decade. Compass will provide precision navigation and targeting for the FC-1 and its weapons in the event that the U.S. or Russia decide to degrade or deny signals from their respective Global Positioning Satellite and GLONASS navsat constellations. FC-1 customers would likely also be able to access imagery from the PLAs growing network of optical and radar surveillance satellites also to assist targeting -- or, as has Venezuela, opt to purchase their own Chinese surveillance satellite. China can also offer two low-cost airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft, the KJ-200 with a linear phased array radar, and the ZDK-03, which uses a rotating saucer radar array. Both are based on modified Shaanxi Y-8 four-engine turboprop aircraft.
> 
> Pakistan has recently taken delivery of the first of up to three ZDK-03 AWACS, intended to compliment its fleet of JF-17 fighters. Source: Chinese Internet
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 11
> 
> Developing the Latin American Market
> One non-traditional market that China has decided will be a priority for future arms exports is Latin America. While, to date, its export success has been much less than that of U.S., Russian and European arms exporters, Chinas participation in regional arms exhibits has increased markedly in the last decade, and China has proven that it is not deterred from using arms exports to deepen its developing strategic relationships in Latin America. During the May 2011 SITDEF arms exhibit in Peru, Chinese companies were marketing new highly accurate short-range ballistic missiles. Perhaps its most strategic project in Latin America has been to strengthen its overall relations with the Bolivarian Alliance, a leftist and anti-American coalition most vocally led by Venezuelan autocrat Hugo Chavez, in close cooperation with Cuba, Bolivia and Ecuador. The last decade has seen China rapidly deepen its economic and political relations with this grouping to the point that such support is now a critical contribution to the viability of these leftist regimes.
> 
> Though China has limited its military relations with Cuba to deep intelligence cooperation and active military diplomacy, the strength and confidence in its relations with Venezuela and Bolivia have led to a gradual increase in arms sales. Both have purchased Chinas Hongdu K-8 jet trainer and light attack aircraft. Simple and inexpensive, the K-8 can be equipped with cannon and light bombs to attack insurgent and narco threats. Both have also purchased Chinese long-range and mobile radar systems. While only a modest increase in capability, these exports are important because they give China the opportunity to build regional confidence in its weapons and logistic support, easing its ability to promote follow-on sales. Sale of the FC-1 might prove an attractive option for both Venezuela and Bolivia to acquire an impressive but inexpensive capability that also builds on their investment in the K-8. In November 2011 there were
> 
> At Perus May 2011 SITDEF arms exhibition, Chinese arms exporter CPMIEC was marketing the SY400 and the B-611M short-range ballistic missiles.
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 12
> 
> Chinese internet rumors that a delegation from Venezuela was visting the Chengdu fighter factory at the same time the FC-1 was making initial test flights with the YJ-83K anti-ship cruise missile.
> 
> If true, such a report would be consistent with other reports of Venezuelan interest in new Chinese fighters. Even though Venezuela chose to purchase Russian Sukhoi Su-30MKV fighters in 2008, it remains possible that it could pursue interest in the FC-1 and J-10, especially after they become proven with an indigenous Chinese engine. If it decides to do so, it would also be consistent for Venezuela to purchase a range of modern weapons to equip its new fighter, as well as to consider the purchase of AWACS and modern 4th generation SAMs to complete an air defense network. Ultimately, however, Chinas ability to develop deeper military relationships will help to facilitate a more frequent formal Chinese military presence. In October 2011 the PLA used the second diplomatic excursion of its new hospital ship, called Mission Harmony 2011, to visit Cuba and other states in the Caribbean. While in Cuba the hospital ship was used to highlight the visit of PLA Central Military Commission Vice Chairman General Guo Boxiong. It is not beyond consideration that within this decade, should military ties with Cuba and Venezuela deepen further, PLA aircraft carrier battle groups could be making port calls.
> 
> Conclusion
> China has built an impressive ability to export effective and inexpensive weapons, exemplified by the Chengdu FC-1 lightweight fighter. China is also willing to use the sales of such new weapons to complement its gathering economic and political power where it so desires. One such region now a priority for arms sales promotion is Latin America. In the Bolivarian group China has established a political-economic beachhead that it is now seeking to turn into a strategic asset with deeper military relationships, such as with Venezuela. Initial military sales of radar and jet trainers are intended to prepare the way for the sale of more sophisticated weapons like the FC-1 and perhaps 4th generation SAMs. Such an assemblage would most troublesome to most existing U.S. 4th generation fighters, U.S. Air Force F-15s and F-16s, and U.S. Navy F-18C fighters not
> 
> In late October 2011 the PLA hospital ship Peace Pearl visited Cubas Havana harbor, in time to hightlight a visit by PLA CMC Vice Chairman General Guo Boxiong. Cuban leader Raul Castro was also in this audience aboard the PLA ship.
> Source: CCTV
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 13
> 
> equipped with AESA radar. The U.S. would face greater pressure to keep available its limited number of superior F-22A stealth fighters, and later its newer F-35 fighters, in order to meet potential regional challenges.
> 
> While the potential for China to build deeper military influence in Latin America serves to undermine Administration hopes that it can reduce Americas defense posture from preparing to fight two simultaneous conflicts, to just one war and a spoiling action, it also points to a growing requirement for the U.S. to blunt Chinas military trajectory into the Western Hemisphere. But Washington may not get results simply by warning Latin friends about the dangers of Chinese strategic penetration at a time when Chinas commercial and economic appeal is growing. It will also be necessary for Washington to offer positive incentives, which could include promoting the development of cost efficient systems that can compete with Chinese military sales even in terms of price.
> 
> To meet a U.S. Air Force requirement to replace the T-38C supersonic trainer, Lockheed-Martin
> proposes a version of the T-50 trainer (left) while Boeing unveiled a new V-tail concept in late 2011. Both could form the basis for a new inexpensive lightweight fighter. Source: RD Fisher
> 
> Though designed to meet a late 1970s requirement, the Northrop F-20 lightweight fighter also could form the basis for a new supersonic trainer/lightweight fighter to compete with the Chengdu FC-1.
> International Assessment and Strategy Center Page 14
> 
> For example, a U.S. Air Force program to develop a successor to the venerable Northrop T-38C supersonic jet trainer could be configured to allow U.S. companies to develop a new lightweight fighter that can exceed the Chengdu FC-1 in terms of performance and value. U.S. fighters companies do not lack for candidates. To meet the current U.S. Air Force requirement Lockheed-Martin is offering a version of the Korean Aircraft Industries T-50 jet trainer while Boeing recently revealed its concept for a T-38 successor. Northrop-Grumman could revive a version of its F-20 fighter, developed in the late 1970s to meet an earlier Carter Administration program to develop a dedicated export fighter. With lightweight AESA radar designs offered by Raytheon and Northrop-Grumman, these designs could form the basis for a new very capable and inexpensive 11- 13-ton supersonic fighter. A key U.S. advantage would be the General Electric F414 EPE engine, which promises an amazing thrust -- 26,400lb (11.9-tons) -- for its small size, potentially giving the U.S. fighter excess energy for superior acceleration and maneuverability. Such an aircraft could also serve as a less expensive to operate lead-in trainer for U.S. 5th generation fighters.
> 
> 1 Bolivia buys more arms to fight drug traffickers, UPI International, February 9, 2011, Bolivia buys more arms to fight drug traffickers - UPI.com
> 2 Grummans participation reportedly started in 1984, but one source notes the Sabre-II program may have started as a Pakistan-China effort in 1974, see, Ghazi Shah, JF-17 Thunder dawn of a new era, Aerospace International, August, 2010, p. 13.
> 3 For an excellent overview of the JF-17 in Pakistan service, see Alan Warnes, JF-17, Thunder from the East, Air Forces Magazine Supplement, June 2011.
> 4 KLJ-7 Airborne Radar, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamara Web Page, Accessed January 26, 2012, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex
> 5 Author interview, 2009 Dubai Airshow. For much of the last decade Chinese companies have been developing a Helmet Mounted Display, which like the Helmet Mounted Sight, can target off-boresight AAMs, but also provides the pilot with much more flight and radar data on a helmet visor, so that he does not have to divide his attention between following cockpit displays and following the fight.
> 6 Siva Govindasamy, Farnbourgh: Pakistan and China eye JF-17export customers, Flight International, July 19, 2010, FARNBOROUGH: Pakistan and China eye export JF-17 customers
> 7 Author interview, November 2011 Dubai Airshow.
> 8 Chile to finalize F-16 Deal with the Netherlands, April 30, 2009, http://www.armybase.us/2009/04/chile-to-finalize-f-16-deal-with-netherlands/
> 9 Gerard ODwyer, SAAB Offers Grippens At Used F-16 Prices, Defense News, April 26, 2010.
> 10 Graham Warwick, USAF To Extend F-16s To Cover F-35 Delays, Aviation Week and Space Technology, November 9, 2011.
> 11 Sergey Balmasov, Russian Mig-29 Jets Attack China in Myanmar, Pravda, December 24, 2009, Russian MiG-29 Jets 'Attack' China in Myanmar - English pravda.ru
> 12 Author interview, November 2011 Dubai Airshow. Though Pakistani officials have been commenting on a two-seat JF-17 version since 2004, one reason given for the delay in its emergence is that Pakistan may be waiting for the Chinese side to fund its development.
> 13 Author interview, October 2004 IDEAS arms show, Karachi, Pakistan
> 
> _a very detailed update on the JF-17/FC-1 MR Fighter Program_


 
Although if PAC has produced a plane with CAC that can match *P-3C(same or greater wing area and range with payload)* in performance then it will be great as it can be used for AEW&Cs platform for PAF and PN as well as MPA too. Like it is constructed from composites with two turbo propellers with 7 wide blades on each and the most important especially for AEW&Cs is a *tail like AN-225* so that it would be helpful for radars.


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## BATMAN

Nishan_101 said:


> Although if PAC has produced a plane with CAC that can match P-3C(same or greater wing area and range with payload) in performance then it will be great as it can be used for AEW&Cs platform for PAF and PN as well as MPA too. Like it is constructed from composites with two turbo propellers with 7 wide blades on each and the most important especially for AEW&Cs is a tail like AN-225 so that it would be helpful for radars.



You mentioned PAC & CAC had produced this plane!!!!!!

Please, someone clarify.


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## Nishan_101

Although if PAC has produced a plane with CAC that can match *P-3C(same or greater wing area and range with payload)* in performance then it will be great as it can be used for AEW&Cs platform for PAF and PN as well as MPA too. Like it is constructed from composites with two turbo propellers with 7 wide blades on each and the most important especially for AEW&Cs is a tail like *AN-225* so that it would be helpful for AWE&Cs radars.
In this way PAF can have platform for there 11 AWE&Cs or more as well as 7-77 for transportation duties as well.
PN will have 11 MPAs and 3-5 AWE&Cs for better Maritime Patrol.


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## nomi007

Nishan_101 said:


> Although if PAC has produced a plane with CAC that can match *P-3C(same or greater wing area and range with payload)* in performance then it will be great as it can be used for AEW&Cs platform for PAF and PN as well as MPA too. Like it is constructed from composites with two turbo propellers with 7 wide blades on each and the most important especially for AEW&Cs is a tail like *AN-225* so that it would be helpful for AWE&Cs radars.
> In this way PAF can have platform for there 11 AWE&Cs or more as well as 7-77 for transportation duties as well.
> PN will have 11 MPAs and 3-5 AWE&Cs for better Maritime Patrol.


pn also have mirage sq
for better security
here is an artistic look

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## Nishan_101

I am talking about indeginization not just buying from others.


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## Alfa-Fighter

The main component is Avionics from whereat will come, world knows Israeli US and now french are best makes of electronics, any Anti-Sub plane its core component is electronics.


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## nafsiati

This link shows that our erieye saab awacs are not superior to indian falcon awacs of israeli origin because of jamming technology! so why being so happy about erieye when it doesnt have the jamming capabilities? and we are also denied jamming technology in other planes like f16 block 52 all thanks to America!!!


News Package - AWACS - YouTube


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## aimarraul



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## farhan_9909

aimarraul said:


>



Another one i guess

seems like we will get all of them by 2013

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## mughaljee



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## Nishan_101

mughaljee said:


>


I think Pakistan should now open its mind and try to invest more and more in Research and Development as well as in education too. They should try to open R&D labs for Radar, Optical systems, Material and Metallurgical, I.Cs, Mechanical, Electrical and Electronics, Chemical, Engines(all kinds Aero engines, rocket engines and other carnot engines) and Bio Medical facilities in Pakistan. So that we may be able to progress like any other in Nation and Country in the world as these R&D facilities will not only help in our military developments but also in commercial sector as well. Hoping that some one is listening.


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## nomi007

nafsiati said:


> This link shows that our erieye saab awacs are not superior to indian falcon awacs of israeli origin because of jamming technology! so why being so happy about erieye when it doesnt have the jamming capabilities? and we are also denied jamming technology in other planes like f16 block 52 all thanks to America!!!
> 
> 
> News Package - AWACS - YouTube


very shocking video
we need to soon take measurements


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## nwmalik

be content, 
you can afford according to your wallet.


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## farhan_9909

mughaljee said:


>



K-100 is from russia nt israel

surely would be a threat to our awacs..


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## PakShaheen79

farhan_9909 said:


> K-100 is from russia nt israel
> 
> surely would be a threat to our awacs..



Isn't it same missile which Russians themselves are not using despite the presence of the US AWACS in European theater?


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## HANI

so is it officially confirm that we are getting ft 2000????????


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## DANGER-ZONE

aimarraul said:


>



LOL ... hiding serial in second picture  Serial is 733, see the first picture closely.  
Seems like third AWA&C of PAF.

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## fatman17

2 are deliverd. 3rd under testing

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## nomi007

3rd one

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## nomi007

Pakistan Navy Lockheed P-3C Orion On Its Way To Pakistan




Pakistan Navy Lockheed P-3C Orion serial number 88 arrived at Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Base Edinburgh, South Australia on February 7, 2012 after a ten hour flight from Pago Pago, American Samoa, using the call sign Navy Victor Romeo Lima Zero Eight.



Using the same call sign, aircraft departed RAAF Base Edinburgh on February 9, 2012, for the four hour flight to RAAF Base Pearce - Western Australia, a one hour technical stop for refueling before heading off to Diego Garcia, Indian Ocean.



The aircraft will fly to PNS Mehran, Karachi, Pakistan, from there.



Pakistan Navy P-3C serial number 89 arrived at RAAF Base Edinburgh, South Australia on February 11, 2012, after a ten hour flight from Pago Pago, American Samoa, using the call sign Navy Victor Romeo Lima Zero Seven.



Using the same call sign, aircraft departed RAAF Base Edinburgh Wednesday February 15, 2012 for the four hour flight to RAAF Base Pearce, Western Australia, a one hour technical stop for refueling before heading off to Diego Garcia, Indian Ocean.



The aircraft will fly to PNS Mehran, Karachi, Pakistan, from there.



These aircraft followed the same routing as a previous Pakistan Navy Orion delivery flight with serials '86' and '87' which traveled together in late May 2010 with the exception that they over-nighted at RAAF Base Pearce.



Pakistan markings are all grayed out and aircraft wear a small star and bar on the fuselage to act as a flag of convenience for delivery purposes
Pakistan Navy Lockheed P-3C Orion On Its Way To Pakistan ~ Pakistan Military Review


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## soul hacker

&#8206;"Vigilant Eagle over Karakoram"

The painting depicts PAF ZDK-03 AWACS flying over Karakoram mountains.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Why Buy separate refulers?? 
Can't AWACS work as Multirole?


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## mirage 5000

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Why Buy separate refulers??
> Can't AWACS work as Multirole?



were is the place to keep giant tanks inside AWACS? YOUR IDEA is one of the best joke of aviation history

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## untitled

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Can't AWACS work as Multirole?



An AWACSs is a dedicated aircraft and can't be used as tanker.

But fighters/bombers can be used as Tankers. The concept is called buddy tankers

An F-18 refueling an F-18






A Tornado refueling a M-346

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## mirage 5000

pdf_shurtah said:


> An AWACSs is a dedicated aircraft and can't be used as tanker.
> 
> But fighters/bombers can be used as Tankers. The concept is called buddy tankers
> 
> An F-18 refueling an F-18
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Tornado refueling a M-346



buddy refueling never give much fuel dear its just a pod they attach in case of emergency refueling


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## Peaceful Civilian

mirage 5000 said:


> were is the place to keep giant tanks inside AWACS? YOUR IDEA is one of the best joke of aviation history


i.e bought the french/uk passenger aircraft, Make it sab2000 with the help of swedish.

If we buy big aircraft like Boeing 727 or 737, make it AWACS with the help of some country, Then tankers are not problem in this big devil.


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## mirage 5000

Peaceful Civlian said:


> i.e bought the french/uk passenger aircraft, Make it sab2000 with the help of swedish.
> 
> If we buy *big aircraft like Boeing 727 or 737*, make it AWACS with the help of some country, Then tankers are not problem in this big devil.



ever you travel on then ? they are tiny not big 

meery baaap fuel tanks are much much big both systems can't instal in one plane same tiem AWACS is load of systems and tanker need empty place for instal and back cockpit also . ye aj tak kabhi nhi hoa ap apna mashwara hitler ko dena marny ke baad mily to


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## Peaceful Civilian

mirage 5000 said:


> ever you travel on then ? they are tiny not big
> 
> meery baaap fuel tanks are much much big both systems can't instal in one plane same tiem AWACS is load of systems and tanker need empty place for instal and back cockpit also . ye aj tak kabhi nhi hoa ap apna mashwara hitler ko dena marny ke baad mily to


ok take it Airbus A380 four-engine jet airliner. Happy??


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## mirage 5000

Peaceful Civlian said:


> ok take it Airbus A380. Happy??



380 not fit too if you fly on it 

for tankers 707 310 330 747 il-76 DC-10 c-130 c-17 ETC but not both systems same time .a-380 INTERIOR is 3 floors and from head to tail its not fit until structure changes .why you getting mad on me ?


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## Peaceful Civilian

mirage 5000 said:


> 380 not fit too if you fly on it
> 
> for tankers 707 310 330 747 il-76 DC-10 c-130 c-17 ETC but not both systems same time .a-380 INTERIOR is 3 floors and from head to tail its not fit until structure changes .why you getting mad on me ?


I think Here comes a issue of size.
Even if we take Airbus A380 and make structure changes, still it is possible it works as mulirole. But due to size of Airbus A380, AWACS can be easier target for enemy. Also i wonders for the high price "for maintenance and operating cost" for this big devil.

So multirole or multipupose thing Loss his values due to above certain Reasons.


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## Haroon rafeeq

Airbus a380 is thrice bigger than pak awacs aircraft. It sucks fuel thrice. Simple aircraft is better for AWACS. Airbus A30 will be nightmare to maintain and cost ratio.


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## Donatello

mirage 5000 said:


> were is the place to keep giant tanks inside AWACS? YOUR IDEA is one of the best joke of aviation history



I'd love to work 9-5 job in that office.


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## Thorough Pro

mirage 5000 said:


> 380 not fit too if you fly on it
> 
> for tankers 707 310 330 747 il-76 DC-10 c-130 c-17 ETC but not both systems same time .a-380 INTERIOR is 3 floors and from head to tail its not fit until structure changes .why you getting mad on me ?



You are feeding in irritant ignornat troll....


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## nafsiati

why Pakistan is not working to buy awacs and aew&c equivalent to indians? pak awacs are inferior to indians since indian awacs can jam pak awacs if both are air borne


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## Patriot

nafsiati said:


> indian awacs can jam pak awacs if both are air borne


And how did you come to this conclusion genius?

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## nafsiati

i am just asking brother! why does pak and china are not working on jamming pods? i mean they can jointly research in making jamming pods! since pak dont have any jamming pods given with these new f16 blk 52

---------- Post added at 10:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------




Patriot said:


> And how did you come to this conclusion genius?



you want me to show the link then here it is (its on dawn news)
News Package - AWACS - YouTube


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## Nishan_101

*NAfsiati* lolz..... We should try to work on Laser that can target any thing even satellites too and Jamming pods are also a good option too....


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## VelocuR

nafsiati said:


> i am just asking brother! why does pak and china are not working on jamming pods? i mean they can jointly research in making jamming pods! since pak dont have any jamming pods given with these new f16 blk 52
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> you want me to show the link then here it is (its on dawn news)
> News Package - AWACS - YouTube



Yeah, we have to admit that the advantage more in Indian Phalcon due to Israel technology combined with Russia. China working on ZDK AWACS mostly heavily relies on Chinese technology for Pakistani requirements. Pakistan can't afford to joint many R&D or any research with China. 

ZDK we received recently was disappointed and not great systems. 



> why Pakistan is not working to buy awacs and aew&c equivalent to indians? *pak awacs are inferior to indians since indian awacs can jam pak awacs if both are air borne *



Not alone both airbornes, Pakistan AWACs along with airforces jets and I doubt Indian AWACS will enter Pakistan airspaces which is imporant to monitor China's backyards. 

Yep, Pakistan AWACs is not advanced but we have eight airbornes more than Indian.


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## farhan_9909

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yeah, we have to admit that the advantage more in Indian Phalcon due to Israel technology combined with Russia. China working on ZDK AWACS mostly heavily relies on Chinese technology for Pakistani requirements. Pakistan can't afford to joint many R&D or any research with China.
> 
> *ZDK we received recently was disappointed and not great systems*..



bt i heard otherwise..PAF is very satisfied with ZDK-03 and has said that they have greater range as well as 360degree coverage(nt continiously) compare to Erieye

Actually the Chineese awacs/radar tech dates abck to Israel-China JV for Awacs.
they are almost as good as the israel one if nt BETTER

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## fatman17

*ZDK we received recently was disappointed and not great systems*

how so ?????


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> *ZDK we received recently was disappointed and not great systems*
> 
> how so ?????


He doesn't even know what would be inside ZDK, I dont mind and reason with childern, so should you


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## mirage 5000

fatman17 said:


> *ZDK we received recently was disappointed and not great systems*
> 
> how so ?????



we even don't know what ZDK-03 is inside or its system and start dissipated


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## VelocuR

farhan_9909 said:


> bt i heard otherwise..PAF is very satisfied with ZDK-03 and has said that they have greater range as well as 360degree coverage(nt continiously) compare to Erieye
> 
> Actually the Chineese awacs/radar tech dates abck to Israel-China JV for Awacs.
> they are almost as good as the israel one if nt BETTER



Yeah, the satisfaction by PAF doesn't mean anything, they just want AWACS to meet Pakistani requirement to protect the sky. Yes, it has greater range more than our Saab Erieye, approximately 350KM. We are all satisfied with the correct prices of the AWACS and delivery times.  The real question is we haven't seen the real war experiments. 

Yes, I know China have Phalcon KJ-2000 but *our ZDK is more likely degrading. * We don't have to believe what PAF Chief said anything, they are also corrupt as well. 



fatman17 said:


> *ZDK we received recently was disappointed and not great systems*
> 
> how so ?????



You can see, Indian Phalcons and Indian EMB 145 with additionally more orders of six, do you think we would rely heavily on Chinese technology or more advantages than India? 

I strongly believe Pakistani AWACs is not capable to protect the sky or powerful jammed by US retailations or India strengths with the more tracking ranges, powers, jamming, and more importantly upgrading Israelis technology. 

The first picture released by ZDK few months ago was not impressive honestly, sir. I would suggest, this ZDK-03 must be good in monitoring oceans, not lands.

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## mirage 5000

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yeah, the satisfaction by PAF doesn't mean anything, they just want AWACS to meet Pakistani requirement to protect the sky. Yes, it has greater range more than our Saab Erieye, approximately 350KM. We are all satisfied with the correct prices of the AWACS and delivery times. The real question is we haven't seen the real war experiments.
> 
> Yes, I know China have Phalcon KJ-2000 but *our ZDK is more likely degrading. * We don't have to believe what PAF Chief said anything, they are also corrupt as well.
> 
> 
> 
> You can see, Indian Phalcons and Indian EMB 145 with additionally more orders of six, do you think we would rely heavily on Chinese technology or more advantages than India?
> 
> I strongly believe Pakistani AWACs is not capable to protect the sky or powerful jammed by US retailations or India strengths with the more tracking ranges, powers, jamming, and more importantly upgrading Israelis technology.
> 
> The first picture released by ZDK few months ago was not impressive honestly, sir. I would suggest, this ZDK-03 must be good in monitoring oceans, not lands.



yaar i really don't like to argue with our side guys it will turn bad and you always remain anti ZDK-03 .but let me ask some basic questions . falcon is war proven ? you think china will let it easy to jam his whole fleet of AWACS ? you think china can't get the tech from Israel ? and if you deny air chief what left to inform us abut our needs? its not PAF who decide abut air war needs? then why lack of trust on them ? what is difference land or sea ? both saab and zdk have modes to use or land and sea as we seen in video .order more by india because they are three time big then us our AWACS are enough for protect our air space but they need more to cover india .both never seen any war so who can you make one super then other ?just because word Israel and Russia is attached mean they are super ?

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## fatman17

^pl do your homework before making such comments - so PAF is corrupt, therefore the system is not good. IAF is buying additional systems , so therefore ZDK is not good. --- good analysis.!!!

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## fatman17

...and going by this same analysis, since PAF is corrupt, then JFT program is not a good system, so too F-16 system.

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## farhan_9909

The Part in which the ZDK-03 is a downgraded variant of kj-2000 is because it has 2 AESa radar nt Three(kj-2000)
bt this is because of no platform available for the Kj-2000..bt it can provide a 360 degree coverage(nt continiously)

It is as Good as the western Awacs of its class(Kj-2000,phalcons are on bigger platform..more power and 3 AESA)

So far 8 awacs are to be operational by 2015.

Thanks to PAF think tanks
they are the best..we in a very lttle budget are managing so much


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## VelocuR

mirage 5000 said:


> yaar i really don't like to argue with our side guys it will turn bad and you always remain anti ZDK-03 .but let me ask some basic questions . falcon is war proven ? you think china will let it easy to jam his whole fleet of AWACS ? you think china can't get the tech from Israel ? and if you deny air chief what left to inform us abut our needs? its not PAF who decide abut air war needs? then why lack of trust on them ? what is difference land or sea ? both saab and zdk have modes to use or land and sea as we seen in video .order more by india because they are three time big then us our AWACS are enough for protect our air space but they need more to cover india .both never seen any war so who can you make one super then other ?just because word Israel and Russia is attached mean they are super ?



Yes, I am aware of India's three time bigger than us, they are clearly more advantages than ours. Believe me, ZDK is not the advanced, I can't deny the fact of Israel and Russia are war proven in the history. We don't know much the deep details of ZDK, considering the low prices and limit requirements with maximum 350KM, China is doing good to make many products available without war experiments. yes, Phalcon is historially war proven technology from US to Israel to India. Hopefully, we will upgrade AWACS to block 2 or nothing. 

The deal to China from Israel was cancelled from US's heavy pressures. The deal was off and nothing special. Case closed. 



fatman17 said:


> ^pl do your homework before making such comments - so PAF is corrupt, therefore the system is not good. IAF is buying additional systems , so therefore ZDK is not good. --- good analysis.!!!



Still you have no answer to the nafsiati's post in his specific question. "why Pakistan is not working to buy awacs and aew&c equivalent to indians? pak awacs are inferior to indians since indian awacs can jam pak awacs if both are air borne"

I speak correct, Pakistan doesn't have the capability of jams which is very difficult to handle powerful jammed from India or future US retailation. Can you proof me wrong? 

I don't want to make you anger, however, India's Novator K-100-AWACs Killer (upgrading 300KM) in no doubt to destory our AWACs without hestitation plus their AWACs is more reliable than ours.

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## Stealth

IMO PAF history from 1990 - 2012 is almost "Pathetic" the way they purchase... the way they spend... the way R&D... the way choose better and "Independent source" of purchase... seriously.. PATHETIC!


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## hatf IX

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yes, I am aware of India's three time bigger than us, they are clearly more advantages than ours. Believe me, ZDK is not the advanced, I can't deny the fact of Israel and Russia are war proven in the history. We don't know much the deep details of ZDK, considering the low prices and limit requirements with maximum 350KM, China is doing good to make many products available without war experiments. yes, Phalcon is historially war proven technology from US to Israel to India. Hopefully, we will upgrade AWACS to block 2 or nothing.
> 
> The deal to China from Israel was cancelled from US's heavy pressures. The deal was off and nothing special. Case closed.
> 
> 
> 
> Still you have no answer to the nafsiati's post in his specific question. "why Pakistan is not working to buy awacs and aew&c equivalent to indians? pak awacs are inferior to indians since indian awacs can jam pak awacs if both are air borne"
> 
> I speak correct, Pakistan doesn't have the capability of jams which is very difficult to handle powerful jammed from India or future US retailation. Can you proof me wrong?
> 
> I don't want to make you anger, however, India's Novator K-100-AWACs Killer (upgrading 300KM) in no doubt to destory our AWACs without hestitation plus their AWACs is more reliable than ours.
> 
> .....................Take care, gotta sleep!



as per my info indian awacs is s-band and zdk-03 is x-band just tell ma how a s-band can jam x-band radar . .. . .?


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## SQ8

RaptorRX707 said:


> The first picture released by ZDK few months ago was not impressive honestly, sir. I would suggest, this ZDK-03 must be good in monitoring oceans, not lands.


I am sorry to say this.. but that is the most STUPID conclusion ever made on the basis of a picture.
How is the ZDK's operational testing deployment indicative of its abilities?
The Erieye's haven't spent that much time near the sea? 
are they bad at monitoring over the ocean?
There is one thing to have an "angry anti-military" idea.. 
another to simply draw stupid conclusions from the most mundane of things.

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## mirage 5000

Oscar said:


> I am sorry to say this.. but that is the most STUPID conclusion ever made on the basis of a picture.
> How is the ZDK's operational testing deployment indicative of its abilities?
> The Erieye's haven't spent that much time near the sea?
> are they bad at monitoring over the ocean?
> There is one thing to have an "angry anti-military" idea..
> another to simply draw stupid conclusions from the most mundane of things.



don't worry last week me and stealth this week his turn of anti military posts lolz


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## SQ8

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yes, I am aware of India's three time bigger than us, they are clearly more advantages than ours. Believe me, ZDK is not the advanced, I can't deny the fact of Israel and Russia are war proven in the history. We don't know much the deep details of ZDK, considering the low prices and limit requirements with maximum 350KM, China is doing good to make many products available without war experiments. yes, Phalcon is historially war proven technology from US to Israel to India. Hopefully, we will upgrade AWACS to block 2 or nothing.
> 
> The deal to China from Israel was cancelled from US's heavy pressures. The deal was off and nothing special. Case closed.
> 
> 
> 
> Still you have no answer to the nafsiati's post in his specific question. "why Pakistan is not working to buy awacs and aew&c equivalent to indians? pak awacs are inferior to indians since indian awacs can jam pak awacs if both are air borne"
> 
> I speak correct, Pakistan doesn't have the capability of jams which is very difficult to handle powerful jammed from India or future US retailation. Can you proof me wrong?
> 
> I don't want to make you anger, however, India's Novator K-100-AWACs Killer (upgrading 300KM) in no doubt to destory our AWACs without hestitation plus their AWACs is more reliable than ours.
> 
> .....................Take care, gotta sleep!



Again.. baseless conclusions..
You made a statement on ZDK not being advanced and then you made the statement on not knowing anything about it.
How on earth could you make the former without knowing the latter unless the whole idea is just to sulk about everything?

what is equivalence? Do India and Pakistan follow similar doctrines and budgets when it comes to military planning?
In what respect apart from radar Range and endurance has the Erieye not advertised its capability against the Phalcon?
How is their AWACS more reliable than ours? What is the MTBO of their radar and ours?
Please.. enlighten us? Because shooting in the air must be justified.

---------- Post added at 06:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 AM ----------




mirage 5000 said:


> don't worry last week me and stealth this week his turn of anti military posts lolz



Pointless posts that have nothing to add to the topic are usually reported by you folks as trolling.

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## nomi007

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yeah, the satisfaction by PAF doesn't mean anything, they just want AWACS to meet Pakistani requirement to protect the sky. Yes, it has greater range more than our Saab Erieye, approximately 350KM. We are all satisfied with the correct prices of the AWACS and delivery times. The real question is we haven't seen the real war experiments.
> 
> Yes, I know China have Phalcon KJ-2000 but *our ZDK is more likely degrading. * We don't have to believe what PAF Chief said anything, they are also corrupt as well.
> 
> 
> 
> You can see, Indian Phalcons and Indian EMB 145 with additionally more orders of six, do you think we would rely heavily on Chinese technology or more advantages than India?
> 
> I strongly believe Pakistani AWACs is not capable to protect the sky or powerful jammed by US retailations or India strengths with the more tracking ranges, powers, jamming, and more importantly upgrading Israelis technology.
> 
> The first picture released by ZDK few months ago was not impressive honestly, sir. I would suggest, this ZDK-03 must be good in monitoring oceans, not lands.


i think our exdpert choose better awacs both saab & zdk
you don't worry when indian violate our air space than they find best answer


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## nomi007

Indian AWACS are base on il-76
India brought from them from a central asian country than upgrade them
also Russian hardware is not so satisfactory


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## Peregrine

This Raptor dude, probably watched that Dawn News report, where the naive reporter hinted that Erieye may not be on power with Phalcon, when it comes to jamming capabilities.


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## soul hacker

SAAB-2000 AEW&C







A digital illustration of JF-17 Thunder and F-16D Block52 flying with SAAB-2000 AEW&C.

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## nomi007

Pakistan Replaces Taliban Losses
February 26, 2012: On February 21st Pakistan received two more of the six P-3C maritime patrol aircraft ordered from the United States. The first two arrived two years ago. But four months later, the Karachi naval base where the P-3s were stationed was attacked. A team of Islamic terrorists easily got into the base and destroyed two P-3s, and left twenty people dead. But now Pakistan again has three P-3s.

The Pakistani P-3s are optimized for maritime surveillance, with new electronics and the ability to see the results of all sensors on one display. For a while, Pakistan will have more capable maritime surveillance aircraft than India. But India will regain the lead within three years. The U.S. and Indian navies will both receive the new American P-8 maritime reconnaissance aircraft at about the same time (2013-14). The Indians are getting eight P-8Is, which will be customized for Indian needs, and be slightly different than the P-8A the Americans will use.

The P-8A Poseidon is based on the widely used Boeing 737 airliner. Although the Boeing 737 based P-8A is a two engine jet, compared to the four engine turboprop P-3, it is a more capable plane. The P-8A has 23 percent more floor space than the P-3, and is larger (38 meter/118 foot wingspan, versus 32.25 meter/100 foot) and is heavier (83 tons versus 61). Most other characteristics are the same. Both can stay in the air about ten hours per sortie. Speed is different. Cruise speed for the 737 is 910 kilometers an hour, versus 590 for the P-3. This makes it possible for the P-8A to get to a patrol area faster, which is a major advantage when chasing down subs first spotted by sonar arrays or satellites. However, the P-3 can carry more weapons (9 tons, versus 5.6.) This is less of a factor as the weapons (torpedoes, missiles, mines, sonobouys) are pound for pound, more effective today and that trend continues. Both carry the same size crew, of 10-11 pilots and equipment operators. Both aircraft carry search radar and various other sensors.

The 737 has, like the P-3, been equipped with hard points on the wings for torpedoes or missiles. The B-737 is a more modern design, and has been used successfully since the 1960s by commercial aviation. Navy aviators are confident that it will be as reliable as the P-3 (which was based on the Electra civilian airliner that first flew in 1954, although only 170 were built, plus 600 P-3s. About 40 Electras are still in service). The Boeing 737 first flew in 1965, and over 5,000 have been built. The P-8A will be the first 737 designed with a bomb bay and four wing racks for weapons. The P-8 costs about $275 million each.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

soul hacker said:


> SAAB-2000 AEW&C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A digital illustration of JF-17 Thunder and F-16D Block52 flying with SAAB-2000 AEW&C.



Great picture, love t

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## soul hacker

SAAB-2000 AEW&C

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## Edevelop

WTF I am surprised. All air forces around the world have very few AWACs.

Airforces:

U.S = 30-60
Russia = 16
Taiwan = 6
Egypt = 6
Australia = 6
Sweden = 6
Brazil = 5
Israel = 5
Saudi Arabia = 5
*Pakistan = 4 + 4 (Eriye + ZDK-03) = 8*
China = 4
France = 4
Turkey = 4
Singapore = 4
*India = 3 + 3 (Phalcon + DRDO) = 6*

List of AWACS aircraft operators - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## nomi007

cb4 said:


> WTF I am surprised. All air forces around the world have very few AWACs.
> 
> Airforces:
> 
> U.S = 30-60
> Russia = 16
> Taiwan = 6
> Egypt = 6
> Australia = 6
> Sweden = 6
> Brazil = 5
> Israel = 5
> Saudi Arabia = 5
> *Pakistan = 4 + 4 (Eriye + ZDK-03) = 8*
> China = 4
> France = 4
> Turkey = 4
> Singapore = 4
> *India = 3 + 3 (Phalcon + DRDO) = 6*
> 
> List of AWACS aircraft operators - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Pakistan is at number 3
that's great


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## Peaceful Civilian

cb4 said:


> WTF I am surprised. All air forces around the world have very few AWACs.
> 
> Airforces:
> 
> U.S = 30-60
> Russia = 16
> Taiwan = 6
> Egypt = 6
> Australia = 6
> Sweden = 6
> Brazil = 5
> Israel = 5
> Saudi Arabia = 5
> *Pakistan = 4 + 4 (Eriye + ZDK-03) = 8*
> China = 4
> France = 4
> Turkey = 4
> Singapore = 4
> *India = 3 + 3 (Phalcon + DRDO) = 6*
> 
> List of AWACS aircraft operators - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


8 is very few in numbers.
We should buy/get/make it at least 20 AWACS till 2020 because Tomorrow is all AWACS game. 
Foreign fighters have already AWACS in their modern generations aircraft. They don't need much AWACS but we need it.


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## kazmi_0017@yahoo.com

yeah,but we need the whole lot of advanced SAM SYSTEM too.we need long range medium & high altitude sam system along with AWACS.this will do the perfact defence for us.


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## ice_man

Peaceful Civlian said:


> 8 is very few in numbers.
> We should buy/get/make it at least 20 AWACS till 2020 because Tomorrow is all AWACS game.
> Foreign fighters have already AWACS in their modern generations aircraft. They don't need much AWACS but we need it.



20!!!!! what do you wanna do with them!!! dear they are not fighters! 8 is enough to keep a look out on all our fronts!

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## Najam Khan

cb4 said:


> WTF I am surprised. All air forces around the world have very few AWACs.
> *Pakistan = 4 + 4 (Eriye + ZDK-03) = 8*


8 is a good number considering 2/3 ECM Falcons which play in similar role as well. PAF's combat and AEW&C wing is getting good shape since past few years. Air defence and support wing need a major up gradation too. We need more strategic air lift platforms to enhance rapid logistic support.

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## nomi007

Peaceful Civlian said:


> 8 is very few in numbers.
> We should buy/get/make it at least 20 AWACS till 2020 because Tomorrow is all AWACS game.
> Foreign fighters have already AWACS in their modern generations aircraft. They don't need much AWACS but we need it.


In early 2006, the Pakistan Air Force ordered six Saab 2000 fitted with Erieye AEW systems from Sweden in a deal valued roughly $1bn.[7] In December 2006, the Pakistan Navy requested three excess P-3 Orion aircraft equipped with Hawkeye 2000 AEW systems, the overall cost of the program is $855mn.[8] China and Pakistan also signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for the joint development of AEW&C systems. A total of $278m AWACS deal has been struck with China.[9]
20 means you know better 
remember that all Saab are refurnished not new
if we need more AWACS than Boeing 737 AEW&C is the best but costly


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## Peaceful Civilian

ice_man said:


> 20!!!!! what do you wanna do with them!!! dear they are not fighters! 8 is enough to keep a look out on all our fronts!


Yeah i know they are not fighter.
Till today 8 are ideal numbers but i am Talking about 2020. 
Because at this time we will see 100s of Jf17, J10bs. Please prove that how only 8 AWACS can handle/loyal with 300 fighters?? Isn't this too much fighters for only 8 AWACS and 2 P3 orion?? 
In 2020 ,We can't leave our space open for enemy as we have no work for SAM system in past.


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## Edevelop

What about Dassault Falcon 20? Its role is ESM, ECM. What is the difference between AWACs and something used in a special mission like this?

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## SQ8

cb4 said:


> What about Dassault Falcon 20? Its role is ESM, ECM. What is the difference between AWACs and something used in a special mission like this?



AEW&C aircraft use active(and passive) sensors to track and detect targets. and provide control.
ECM ..aircraft are more attuned to attacking the electronic sensors of other vehicles...and carry powerful transmitters specifically for that purpose.

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## Fieldmarshal

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Yeah i know they are not fighter.
> Till today 8 are ideal numbers but i am Talking about 2020.
> Because at this time we will see 100s of Jf17, J10bs. Please prove that how only 8 AWACS can handle/loyal with 300 fighters?? Isn't this too much fighters for only 8 AWACS and 2 P3 orion??



All the fighters in any air forces fleet are never airborne at the same time...even in wars. At any given time a certain no. of ac are in the air. the awacs can handle that no. with ease.


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## untitled

cb4 said:


> WTF I am surprised. All air forces around the world have very few AWACs.
> 
> Airforces:
> 
> U.S = 30-60
> Russia = 16
> Taiwan = 6
> Egypt = 6
> Australia = 6
> Sweden = 6
> Brazil = 5
> Israel = 5
> Saudi Arabia = 5
> *Pakistan = 4 + 4 (Eriye + ZDK-03) = 8*
> China = 4
> France = 4
> Turkey = 4
> Singapore = 4
> *India = 3 + 3 (Phalcon + DRDO) = 6*
> 
> List of AWACS aircraft operators - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



From the same source

NATO has 17


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## nomi007

pdf_shurtah said:


> From the same source
> 
> NATO has 17


if we have 5 P-3 Orion more will soon come
its means we have 13 AWACS at this time
Pakistan Naval Air Arm &#8211; ~Four P-3C; based in Naval aviation base Faisal, Karachi. Upgraded P-3C MPA and P-3B AEW models (equipped with Hawkeye 2000 AEW system) ordered in 2006,[39] first upgraded P-3C delivered in early 2007. In June 2010, two more upgraded P-3Cs joined the Pakistan Navy with anti-ship and submarine warfare capabilities.[40]. Only two of these aircraft remain after an attack by armed militants destroyed two of the four Pakistan had acquired


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## Edevelop

Look at this about *PAF Dassult Falcon 20* from Wiki:

Operated by No. 24 Blinders Squadron which was revived in 1987 following induction of DA-20. Participated during PAF exercises in both airborne early warning and ECM roles.[88][89] First participated in a PAF exercise, in the ESM and ECM role, during Exercise High Mark 89 (14 November to 23 December 1989).[90] Also used for ESM/ECM support during Saffron Bandit exercises of 1992, 1994, 1997 and 1999.[91]
*Third aircraft delivered March 2008. Original two aircraft flown to France for upgrade and structural overhaul during 2004-2007,which they never returned because pakistan didn't wanted to pay for it.*

List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*So it looks like we just have 1 in our service*


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## Najam Khan

cb4 said:


> Look at this about *PAF Dassult Falcon 20* from Wiki:
> 
> Operated by No. 24 Blinders Squadron which was revived in 1987 following induction of DA-20. Participated during PAF exercises in both airborne early warning and ECM roles.[88][89] First participated in a PAF exercise, in the ESM and ECM role, during Exercise High Mark 89 (14 November to 23 December 1989).[90] Also used for ESM/ECM support during Saffron Bandit exercises of 1992, 1994, 1997 and 1999.[91]
> *Third aircraft delivered March 2008. Original two aircraft flown to France for upgrade and structural overhaul during 2004-2007,which they never returned because pakistan didn't wanted to pay for it.
> *



Wrong. They were not sent to France. Upgraded locally one by one.

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## Stealth

Najam Khan said:


> Wrong. They were not sent to France. Upgraded locally one by one.



I met with SAAB **** Pakistan official he told me that PAF don't have funds for other 2 AWACS.


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## Edevelop

Here is another news from Wiki:






*ZDK-03: A variant designed specifically for export to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Consists of a Chinese AESA? radar mounted on the Y-8F600 platform. The radar is reported to have a greater range than that of the PAF's Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C radar* *and the aircraft incorporates open architecture electronics to make future upgrades easier to implement*.


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## razgriz19

cb4 said:


> What about Dassault Falcon 20? Its role is ESM, ECM. What is the difference between AWACs and something used in a special mission like this?



this is a jammer aircraft. its specific mission is to jam enemy airplane's radars.
besides this is a very old aircraft its probably gonna be retired after ZDK comes home.


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## Najam Khan

Stealth said:


> I met with SAAB **** Pakistan official he told me that PAF don't have funds for other 2 AWACS.


 
PAC is facing similar funds issue since early 2011...has it stopped working? No.
PAF is facing trouble with funds allocation, such shortages will cause delay in achieving desired milestones...but the show must go on!


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## Nishan_101

cb4 said:


> WTF I am surprised. All air forces around the world have very few AWACs.
> 
> Airforces:
> 
> U.S = 30-60
> Russia = 16
> Taiwan = 6
> Egypt = 6
> Australia = 6
> Sweden = 6
> Brazil = 5
> Israel = 5
> Saudi Arabia = 5
> *Pakistan = 4 + 4 (Eriye + ZDK-03) = 8*
> China = 4
> France = 4
> Turkey = 4
> Singapore = 4
> *India = 3 + 3 (Phalcon + DRDO) = 6*
> 
> List of AWACS aircraft operators - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
Although the number of AWE&Cs PAF has are good but I have heard that we need at least 11 of these + additional for reserve. Like 4 Saab+7 ZDK-03. I have heard that Navy wants 5 AWE&Cs instead of just 3.


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## fatman17

cb4 said:


> Look at this about *PAF Dassult Falcon 20* from Wiki:
> 
> Operated by No. 24 Blinders Squadron which was revived in 1987 following induction of DA-20. Participated during PAF exercises in both airborne early warning and ECM roles.[88][89] First participated in a PAF exercise, in the ESM and ECM role, during Exercise High Mark 89 (14 November to 23 December 1989).[90] Also used for ESM/ECM support during Saffron Bandit exercises of 1992, 1994, 1997 and 1999.[91]
> *Third aircraft delivered March 2008. Original two aircraft flown to France for upgrade and structural overhaul during 2004-2007,which they never returned because pakistan didn't wanted to pay for it.*List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *So it looks like we just have 1 in our service*



this is the main reason info on wiki is not accurate - anyone can add 'mis-information' - all 3 a/c are upgraded and over-hauled and operational at all times.

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## fatman17

The first ZDK-03 (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 11-002) is currently undergoing flight tests and is believed to be delivered in March 2012.

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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> The first ZDK-03 (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. *The 2nd (S/N 11-002)* is currently undergoing flight tests and is believed to be delivered in March 2012.



first one should have 12-001 serial number and second one 12-002.


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## DANGER-ZONE

mafiya said:


> first one should have *12*-001 serial number and second one *12*-002.



The bold part of Serial No's represent the year in which that particular bird is finalized for flight tests.
So the first ZDK-03 which we received, as mentioned by Sir *Fatman*, in Dec-11 was officially revealed in November 2010. So it was completed for flight trials in early 2011 hence the serial becomes 11-001. 
Picture of Second Flying ZDK-03 published in a Chinese Mag in Dec 2011. Thats means it is also finalized in 2011.
You might see 12-___ on third & fourth bird.

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## Nishan_101

Although it would be much better to have a bigger fleet of AWE&Cs along with UCAVs and ELINT aircraft then to have several fighters on the air for that role. I am sure that a fleet like this would be much better for PAF:
500 Multi role Fighters
11+ AEW&Cs
5-7 ELINT/SIGNIT
50 UAVs/UCAVs
21 Y-9P
11 CN-235/CN-295P
7 IL-78s


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## ziaulislam

^^^^^^
unlikly that we are going to have such a fleet its really expenisve to achieve and maintain.. expect 350 fighters at most along with current AWECS and re fuelors


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## Nishan_101

Are all the Erieye operational and I am sure they will be on our Eastern borders.....


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## dexter

In Granada,Spain for final test flight.

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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> Again.. baseless conclusions..
> You made a statement on ZDK not being advanced and then you made the statement on not knowing anything about it.
> How on earth could you make the former without knowing the latter unless the whole idea is just to sulk about everything?
> 
> what is equivalence? Do India and Pakistan follow similar doctrines and budgets when it comes to military planning?
> In what respect apart from radar Range and endurance has the Erieye not advertised its capability against the Phalcon?
> How is their AWACS more reliable than ours? What is the MTBO of their radar and ours?
> Please.. enlighten us? Because shooting in the air must be justified.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Pointless posts that have nothing to add to the topic are usually reported by you folks as trolling.


sir,with due respect,this is NOT how you gauge the performance of a radar system,the major criterias are as follows
(thats how a radar engineer gauge the radar performance)-
1)the numerical figure of PAP(power apperature product) of the radar system in dbWm^2(this is actually the product of peak power and the effective apperature are of the radar)
2)the LNA figure in terms of db
3)the power of each t/r modules,for example these days,with the advent of GaN HEMT,it is quite possible to ahieve almost 80W/MODULE,though the usage of such modules is strictly limited by cooling of that radar system(if the peak power of a radar is high,then it can be very well be used as an effective directed energy weapon,for example,N035 IRBIS has a peak power of about 20kW)
4)the beam agility of the radar
5)the frequency agility of the radar


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## amardeep mishra

dexter said:


> In Granada,Spain for final test flight.


erieye is indeed quite a good platform for PAF,though it is seriously inferior to india's indigenous AESA AEW&C system because of the following,and please dont consider me as some pak basher,i am simply a control engineer puting forward my analysis
1)it has a about 192 t/r modules whereas DRDO's AEW&C had originally 300 t/r modules
2)the length of planar mount is about 8.4m in DRDO's awacs
3)PAF's erieye is seriously restricted to 240 degrees of scanning whereas there is no such restriction of AEW&Cs(though i am sure DRDO's AEW&Cs too cant scan 360 degrees completely like the PHALCON)
4)DRDO's AWACS has the satcom link,which i doubt is NOT present in erieye(please correct me with solid facts,if you find me wrong)


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## Bratva

amardeep mishra said:


> erieye is indeed quite a good platform for PAF,though it is seriously inferior to india's indigenous AESA AEW&C system because of the following,and please dont consider me as some pak basher,i am simply a control engineer puting forward my analysis
> 1)*it has a about 192 t/r modules *whereas DRDO's AEW&C had originally 300 t/r modules
> 2)the length of planar mount is about 8.4m in DRDO's awacs
> 3)*PAF's erieye is seriously restricted to 240 degrees* of scanning whereas there is no such restriction of AEW&Cs(though i am sure DRDO's AEW&Cs too cant scan 360 degrees completely like the PHALCON)
> 4)*DRDO's AWACS has the satcom link*,which i doubt is NOT present in erieye(please correct me with solid facts,if you find me wrong)



Making this kind of statements need proper links attached with it. A link which confirms Pakistani Saab has 192 T/R modules?

Once Again, Who says Pakistani Erieye is restricted to 240 degrees?

A satcom in Pakistani Awac is not needed based on the requirments. So that's why it didnt have and do enlighten us how come not having satcom will degrade the performance of Pak Saab?


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## amardeep mishra

mafiya said:


> Making this kind of statements need proper links attached with it. A link which confirms Pakistani Saab has 192 T/R modules?
> 
> Once Again, Who says Pakistani Erieye is restricted to 240 degrees?
> 
> A satcom in Pakistani Awac is not needed based on the requirments. So that's why it didnt have and do enlighten us how come not having satcom will degrade the performance of Pak Saab?


sir,my source is the book named "introduction to radar systems" by merill m scholnik


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> sir,with due respect,this is NOT how you gauge the performance of a radar system,the major criterias are as follows
> (thats how a radar engineer gauge the radar performance)-
> 1)the numerical figure of PAP(power apperature product) of the radar system in dbWm^2(this is actually the product of peak power and the effective apperature are of the radar)
> 2)the LNA figure in terms of db
> 3)the power of each t/r modules,for example these days,with the advent of GaN HEMT,it is quite possible to ahieve almost 80W/MODULE,though the usage of such modules is strictly limited by cooling of that radar system(if the peak power of a radar is high,then it can be very well be used as an effective directed energy weapon,for example,N035 IRBIS has a peak power of about 20kW)
> 4)the beam agility of the radar
> 5)the frequency agility of the radar



Then please.. enlighten a Communications engineer who is working on digital signal processing systems on how the Erieye is Inferior to the DRDO Awacs.



amardeep mishra said:


> erieye is indeed quite a good platform for PAF,though it is seriously inferior to india's indigenous AESA AEW&C system because of the following,and please dont consider me as some pak basher,i am simply a control engineer puting forward my analysis
> 1)it has a about 192 t/r modules whereas DRDO's AEW&C had originally 300 t/r modules
> 2)the length of planar mount is about 8.4m in DRDO's awacs
> 3)PAF's erieye is seriously restricted to 240 degrees of scanning whereas there is no such restriction of AEW&Cs(though i am sure DRDO's AEW&Cs too cant scan 360 degrees completely like the PHALCON)
> 4)DRDO's AWACS has the satcom link,which i doubt is NOT present in erieye(please correct me with solid facts,if you find me wrong)



1) That depends, *on who makes it and what its designed to do*. If *you mean the same radar family, same maker, and same purpose, then finer discrimination* (assuming you have the signal processor to handle it, favors a BETTER detection thresh-hold across the same interval for the array with the more T/R modules. It can be more sensitive for the given radiated signal. More chances for an interpretable signal return exist.

So till there is concrete proof that the DRDO T/R modules are better than those made by SAAB.. Im not buying it.

2)And what is the length on the Saab 2000? 

3)No such restriction? How did you make that claim? Both are side looking planar arrays with a generally acceptable 160 field of "perfect" scanning .. and variable search ability within a further arc.. which is NOT 240 on the Erieye.
Your statement is nothing more than self appeasement... unless the DRDO system has two extra arrays like the Boeing MESA for front and back.. I am already beginning to doubt the veracity of your claims overall.

4) Erieye has no Satcom link.. nor was one asked for... The operational requirements of the Erieye do not imagine it to go beyond ground telemetry stations at ANY time. 

Your analysis seems very flawed since it seems to be based on assumed Data and not concrete.
No ACTUAL concrete company published data exists on the Erieye Radar's T/R modules, Scanning cone .etc fitted on the PAF Saab 2000. Please do not make the flawed judgement on thinking that the Erieye on the SAAB-2000 is the same as the ERIEYE on the Saab 340 or EMB-145 . There is a marked difference in the equipment(and the relative price we payed for it).
I am very aware of this since I have worked on the integration of the system into our existing C4I network and know enough about it to call your estimate completely incorrect.


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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> Then please.. enlighten a Communications engineer who is working on digital signal processing systems on how the Erieye is Inferior to the DRDO Awacs.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) That depends, *on who makes it and what its designed to do*. If *you mean the same radar family, same maker, and same purpose, then finer discrimination* (assuming you have the signal processor to handle it, favors a BETTER detection thresh-hold across the same interval for the array with the more T/R modules. It can be more sensitive for the given radiated signal. More chances for an interpretable signal return exist.
> 
> So till there is concrete proof that the DRDO T/R modules are better than those made by SAAB.. Im not buying it.
> 
> 2)And what is the length on the Saab 2000?
> 
> 3)No such restriction? How did you make that claim? Both are side looking planar arrays with a generally acceptable 160 field of "perfect" scanning .. and variable search ability within a further arc.. which is NOT 240 on the Erieye.
> Your statement is nothing more than self appeasement... unless the DRDO system has two extra arrays like the Boeing MESA for front and back.. I am already beginning to doubt the veracity of your claims overall.
> 
> 4) Erieye has no Satcom link.. nor was one asked for... The operational requirements of the Erieye do not imagine it to go beyond ground telemetry stations at ANY time.
> 
> Your analysis seems very flawed since it seems to be based on assumed Data and not concrete.
> No ACTUAL concrete company published data exists on the Erieye Radar's T/R modules, Scanning cone .etc fitted on the PAF Saab 2000. Please do not make the flawed judgement on thinking that the Erieye on the SAAB-2000 is the same as the ERIEYE on the Saab 340 or EMB-145 . There is a marked difference in the equipment(and the relative price we payed for it).
> I am very aware of this since I have worked on the integration of the system into our existing C4I network and know enough about it to call your estimate completely incorrect.


well, sir I'm also an electronics, instrumentation and control engineer, and radar engineering is my favourite pastime apart from nuclear reactor engineering
I am not actively working on any project as of now, though I have experience at BEL,
Lemme have my dinner, and I shall reply you in detail...


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> well, sir I'm also an electronics, instrumentation and control engineer, and radar engineering is my favourite pastime apart from nuclear reactor engineering
> I am not actively working on any project as of now, though I have experience at BEL,
> *Lemme have my dinner*, and I shall reply you in detail...



please.. take all the time you need.
Since technical discussion with official proofs are always welcome.


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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> Then please.. enlighten a Communications engineer who is working on digital signal processing systems on how the Erieye is Inferior to the DRDO Awacs.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) That depends, *on who makes it and what its designed to do*. If *you mean the same radar family, same maker, and same purpose, then finer discrimination* (assuming you have the signal processor to handle it, favors a BETTER detection thresh-hold across the same interval for the array with the more T/R modules. It can be more sensitive for the given radiated signal. More chances for an interpretable signal return exist.
> 
> So till there is concrete proof that the DRDO T/R modules are better than those made by SAAB.. Im not buying it.
> 
> 2)And what is the length on the Saab 2000?
> 
> 3)No such restriction? How did you make that claim? Both are side looking planar arrays with a generally acceptable 160 field of "perfect" scanning .. and variable search ability within a further arc.. which is NOT 240 on the Erieye.
> Your statement is nothing more than self appeasement... unless the DRDO system has two extra arrays like the Boeing MESA for front and back.. I am already beginning to doubt the veracity of your claims overall.
> 
> 4) Erieye has no Satcom link.. nor was one asked for... The operational requirements of the Erieye do not imagine it to go beyond ground telemetry stations at ANY time.
> 
> Your analysis seems very flawed since it seems to be based on assumed Data and not concrete.
> No ACTUAL concrete company published data exists on the Erieye Radar's T/R modules, Scanning cone .etc fitted on the PAF Saab 2000. Please do not make the flawed judgement on thinking that the Erieye on the SAAB-2000 is the same as the ERIEYE on the Saab 340 or EMB-145 . There is a marked difference in the equipment(and the relative price we payed for it).
> I am very aware of this since I have worked on the integration of the system into our existing C4I network and know enough about it to call your estimate completely incorrect.


 
sir,this is a video hope this helps
India&#39;s Airborne Early Warning & Control System [AEW&CS] development programme - YouTube


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## SQ8

From skimming it( I hate boring Desi presentation, especially in the typical baritone style of mil officers here.. they put me to sleep).
The DRDO system suffers from the very same sort of limitations in *RADAR* coverage that the Erieye does..which it makes up for (or at least pretends to like the erieye) using 360 ESM coverage.

The sophistication in the T/R modules is debatable since this is India's first effort ..one does not have a previous product to gauge the level of sophistication from..or in my case.. no hands on exp of the product to say otherwise.
Saab on the other hand.. has been making AESA radars since the mid 90's. 
And has a R&D dept well versed in the topic.. 
The Saab 340( with its systems) shown as an example in the video .. is a VERY inferior animal when compared to the Saab 2000 Erieye and its systems...this I know from first hand exp.. no hearsay.


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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> From skimming it( I hate boring Desi presentation, especially in the typical baritone style of mil officers here.. they put me to sleep).
> The DRDO system suffers from the very same sort of limitations in *RADAR* coverage that the Erieye does..which it makes up for (or at least pretends to like the erieye) using 360 ESM coverage.
> 
> The sophistication in the T/R modules is debatable since this is India's first effort ..one does not have a previous product to gauge the level of sophistication from..or in my case.. no hands on exp of the product to say otherwise.
> Saab on the other hand.. has been making AESA radars since the mid 90's.
> And has a R&D dept well versed in the topic..
> The Saab 340( with its systems) shown as an example in the video .. is a VERY inferior animal when compared to the Saab 2000 Erieye and its systems...this I know from first hand exp.. no hearsay.


Sir, since you are an engineer, I can fairly assume that you are aware of the technical and mathematical terminology we use in our community
The radar parameters like range are NOT deterministic things but probabilistic variables which depend on Pd (probability of detection) and Pf (probability of false alarm) among other things like SNR, etc, Ican't write the equation here because I'm on my cell now,
Pd follows "rice density function"and Pf follows gaussian probability density function
these are very important terms in signal processing when you as an engineer have to determine a reasonable threshold
Though, my dear friend, designing a signal or data processor is not a great challenge these days, the real problem lies in manufacturing t/r modules which have all the components embedded in a single chip, the second most challenge is dissipating heat from radar systems (here I'm specifically talking about airborne AESA carried in nose of fighter jets)...the cooling chalenge becomes formidable as the nose of the jet gets smaller, I mean, cooling challenges are more immense for smaller jets than bigger fighters with about 1m diameter
Even today, there are GaN HEMT available which can provide 80W/module, though their usage is not possible in airborne radars simply because of cooling requirements


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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> From skimming it( I hate boring Desi presentation, especially in the typical baritone style of mil officers here.. they put me to sleep).
> The DRDO system suffers from the very same sort of limitations in *RADAR* coverage that the Erieye does..which it makes up for (or at least pretends to like the erieye) using 360 ESM coverage.
> 
> The sophistication in the T/R modules is debatable since this is India's first effort ..one does not have a previous product to gauge the level of sophistication from..or in my case.. no hands on exp of the product to say otherwise.
> Saab on the other hand.. has been making AESA radars since the mid 90's.
> And has a R&D dept well versed in the topic..
> The Saab 340( with its systems) shown as an example in the video .. is a VERY inferior animal when compared to the Saab 2000 Erieye and its systems...this I know from first hand exp.. no hearsay.


Does the erieye in PAF's inventory has l-band IFF? I would like to know that
And secondly, the t/r module count on indian aewcs system is lill bit higher than erieye, so I can assume without the loss of generality that drdo's awacs will have numerically bigger power aperature product
And thirdly erieye lacks a satcom (which is rather essential in this age of net centric warfare) you simply can't undermine the importance of satcom in today's warfare...
Being a communication engineer you can better appreciate what I'm saying here...
ok, sir, now I gotta go, have class in 5 mins, signal processing......I will write about our phased array in evening...


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## amardeep mishra

for example there exists a simple empirical relationship between SNR and pd, pf, which is given by SNR = A + 0.12 AB +1.7 B, where A = ln[0.62/Pf] & B = ln [Pd/(1-Pd)]
where Pf=(1/TB);
and B=bandwidth of IF amplifier
and T is given by
T=(1/B)*(exp((V^2)/2Y));
in the above equation,V^2/2Y is also known as threshold to noise ratio(V being the threshold voltage and y being the rms value of noise)
and Pd=integral of (Ps(R)dR),from V to infinity.....here Ps is the probability density function of the detection(which in this case is rice's density function)


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## BATMAN

amardeep mishra said:


> sir,this is a video hope this helps
> India's Airborne Early Warning & Control System [AEW&CS] development programme - YouTube



When Pakistan bought Erieye, Indians spammed every thread on it.. stating, it does not have 360° scan and ironically always copy Pakistan.

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> From skimming it( I hate boring Desi presentation, especially in the typical baritone style of mil officers here.. they put me to sleep).
> The DRDO system suffers from the very same sort of limitations in *RADAR* coverage that the Erieye does..which it makes up for (or at least pretends to like the erieye) using 360 ESM coverage.
> 
> The sophistication in the T/R modules is debatable since this is India's first effort ..one does not have a previous product to gauge the level of sophistication from..or in my case.. no hands on exp of the product to say otherwise.
> Saab on the other hand.. has been making AESA radars since the mid 90's.
> And has a R&D dept well versed in the topic..
> The Saab 340( with its systems) shown as an example in the video .. is a VERY inferior animal when compared to the Saab 2000 Erieye and its systems...this I know from first hand exp.. no hearsay.



Hi Oscar,

You do realize that you are feeding a troll? Whose every post implies that India has everything superior while the rest of us are stupid.

This thread is a Pakistan AWACs thread, not a vs thread. I hate to open up a thread to see an update, only to find Indian trolls at their favorite past time.

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## amardeep mishra

Donatello said:


> Hi Oscar,
> 
> You do realize that you are feeding a troll? Whose every post implies that India has everything superior while the rest of us are stupid.
> 
> This thread is a Pakistan AWACs thread, not a vs thread. I hate to open up a thread to see an update, only to find Indian trolls at their favorite past time.


Why don't you talk technical? Why can't we discuss on technical basis?
Are you up for this? Btw, when did I troll

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## Bratva

amardeep mishra said:


> Why don't you talk technical? Why can't we discuss on technical basis?
> Are you up for this? Btw, when did I troll


 
instead of talking technical your first line of argument was your awac is superior to ours and you start supporting your argument with unverified data. Is this what we call technical discussion?

Technical discussion is to support your argument with proven data and we have yet to see what you have claimed about drdo awac is really what it has.

Then prove that Saab awac has less t/r modules. Have you worked on both Drdo and Saab awac that you know one has more and one has less modules?

Second deficiency in your tecnical analysis is you have lack of knowledge about how PAF has tried to compensate blind supports by specially ordering Saab to have sensors in front and back to cover blind spots up to some extents. now the coverage is increased to 300 degress.

So first learn how to conduct technical discussions. Then come and talk with us


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## amardeep mishra

mafiya said:


> instead of talking technical your first line of argument was your awac is superior to ours and you start supporting your argument with unverified data. Is this what we call technical discussion?
> 
> Technical discussion is to support your argument with proven data and we have yet to see what you have claimed about drdo awac is really what it has.
> 
> Then prove that Saab awac has less t/r modules. Have you worked on both Drdo and Saab awac that you know one has more and one has less modules?
> 
> Second deficiency in your tecnical analysis is you have lack of knowledge about how PAF has tried to compensate blind supports by specially ordering Saab to have sensors in front and back to cover blind spots up to some extents. now the coverage is increased to 300 degress.
> 
> So first learn how to conduct technical discussions. Then come and talk with us


Sir, with due respect, the official site/dr kopp/dr merill m scholnik all say that erieye has 192 t/r modules as against 300 in drdo's....more over the array of drdo's awacs is 240 mm lengthier than the erieye, resulting in higher power apperature product (considering similar peak power of individual modules)
Secondly, erieye lacks satcom which is vital for today's net centric warfare

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## Bratva

amardeep mishra said:


> Sir, with due respect, the official site/dr kopp/dr merill m scholnik all say that erieye has 192 t/r modules as against 300 in drdo's....more over the array of drdo's awacs is 240 mm lengthier than the erieye, resulting in higher power apperature product (considering similar peak power of individual modules)
> Secondly, erieye lacks satcom which is vital for today's net centric warfare



once again irrevelant reply which website or official says pakistani specefic awacs has 192 t/r modules? any indian official claiming drdo has the 300 modules? 

Once again satcom is an individual element which is not a necessity but rather a add on for awacs having it will not have great impact. Other wise prove it having it necessary for Saab Awacs. last but not the least let me show you how the REAL TECHNICAL ANALYSIS IS DONE INSTEAD OF RELYING ON XYZ YADA YADA CLAIMS.



S10 said:


> If I am not mistaken, ZDK-03 features two AESA arrays instead of three on KJ-2000, therefore a rotating dome is needed. The lack of third array is purely a cost saving consideration.


 


Sapper said:


> Thats not the ONLY reason, another reason is that a larger array can be placed in a rotating dome giving more range, while placing triangular dome reduces the size of each array by ~20%.
> 
> A simple trignometric analysis shows that the maximum array size of triangular dome (like KJ2000 and Phalcon) is 20% less than a straight radial array along its diameter (like E-3-Sentry, E-2D-Hawkeye, ZDK03).
> 
> Moreover, previously the pulse doppler version of rotating domes gave a 20sec radar darkness over any perticular point due to the fact that they could only illuminate targets in direct line of sight in perpendicular to the array, but the AESA doesnot have that restriction. Instead AESA can electronically steer a radar beam to illuminate 60 degrees to either side of perpendicular. This covers 120 degree to each side totalling 240 degrees of instantaneous view, while leaving 60 degree on each corner in radar darkness. When rotating at same speed of 40 sec per rotation, same as with pulse dopler version, it will illuminate a full 360 degree circle in 6 seconds. Thus a target is re-illuminated 6 seconds after it goes into dark region. Also this is assuming ZDK-03 has AESA with 120 degree field of view, which is only an assumption. In actuality it might have 150 degree field of view AESA (like Erieye atop Saab2000) which will reduce re-acquisition time to 3 sec.
> 
> One more thing to note is that fixed dome suffers from constant side lobe attenuations in regions deviating close its electronic steering boundary, for extended periods of time; while giving good target data at regions close to perpendicular. On the other hand, rotating dome ensures maximum search precision for all 360 degrees within a maximum of 10 seconds, and that too without changing the heading of the platform itself.
> 
> If you ask me, having 20% plus range is much much more desirable than 3 seconds of radar darkness, *besides* being cost effective as well.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper


 


Sapper said:


> Now my first assumption is that two complimenting AESAs are placed inside the rotating dome, i.e. the similar kind of double sided Erieye configuration, but in rotating configuration. This is based on the assumption that
> 1. Dual sided aesa was already available with china on Y-8 platform at similar cost, but not opted for by PAF,
> 2. AESA is comparatively thin and does not require additional wasted space for dedicated transmitter assembly on the backside, since every single unit is itself a transmitter reciever on its own.
> 3. China already posses the technology to fit 3xAESA in a radome and 2xAESA in sandwitch-BalanceBeam configurations, placing the balance beam config would have been no problem to place into a rotating radome.
> 
> If thats the case for ZDK-03 (unless proven on the contrary) I will proceed with the following calculations.
> 
> 
> Assume 40 sec per rotation, which is normal, and 120 arch illumination (60 deg from perpedicular) for AESA array, which is also normal.
> 360 deg per 40 sec = 9 deg per sec (RotationSpeed)
> 
> Assume a target is at 0-deg, Radar starts spinning, at radar's-0-deg, target is fully perpedicular and perfectly lit
> Radar goes to 45-deg, still lit.
> Radar goes 60-deg, still lit.
> Radar goes 61-deg, target lost.
> Now radar goes 90-deg, target is still lost.
> Radar goes 119-deg, still lost.
> Now radar comes to 120 deg, still lost for the array pointing 120, but the array facing exactly opposite to it i.e. at 120+180 deg = 300-deg has illumination till 360 deg, which is the same as 0-deg, target lit by opposing array, target acquired.
> 
> Now target lost at 61-deg ... and reacquired at 120-deg.
> Lost-Time = 60-deg / RotationSpeed = 60 / 9 = 6.6 sec
> 
> 
> I may be wrong, and ZDK-03 might only have a single AESA pointing to one side, as in legacy E3Sentry, in which case the re-acquisition will take 26 seconds to re-acquire target, but lets wait for the time when PAF or China releases specs. If thats the case apologies in advance.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper


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## soul hacker



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## air marshal

*PAF first aircrew to fly Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C in Pakistan - March 1, 2010. L-R: S/L Ali Raza, S/L Salman, S/L Adeel Zafar, W/C Inamullah, W/C Akhtar, W/C Farhan, W/C Tahir, S/L Jannisar, S/L Umer. [Picture courtesy: Directorate of Media Affair, PAF]*





_*PAF first aircrew to fly Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C in Pakistan. [Picture courtesy: Directorate of Media Affair, PAF]*_


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## air marshal

*Wg Cdr Syed Inamullah and Wg Cdr Zulfiqar Ali, the first PAF aircrew to fly Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C aircraft as Pilot-in-Command. [Picture courtesy: Directorate of Media Affair, PAF]*





*No. 33 Flying Wing - 2010. [Picture courtesy: Directorate of Media Affair, PAF]*


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## Abingdonboy

Any idea why PAF went for the SAAB 2000 platform over others? especially a jet powered platform with longer range? Especially as (ironically) the majority of Eriye operators use the EMB-145 platform.

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## ironman

mafiya said:


> Making this kind of statements need proper links attached with it. A link which confirms Pakistani Saab has 192 T/R modules?
> 
> Once Again, Who says Pakistani Erieye is restricted to 240 degrees?
> 
> A satcom in Pakistani Awac is not needed based on the requirments. So that's why it didnt have and do enlighten us how come not having satcom will degrade the performance of Pak Saab?



Erieye AEW&C Airborne Early Warning & Control mission system radar (Sweden), Airborne radar systems

Type 
Airborne Early Warning (AEW) radar.

Description 
The Erieye AEW&C mission system radar is an active, phased-array, pulse-Doppler sensor that can feed an onboard operator architecture or downlink data (via an associated datalink subsystem) to a ground-based air defence network. The system employs a large aperture, dual-sided antenna array housed in a dorsal 'plank' fairing. The antenna is fixed, and the beam is electronically scanned, which provides for improved detection and significantly enhanced tracking performance compared with radar-dome antenna systems.Erieye detects and tracks air and sea targets out to the horizon (and beyond due to anomalous propagation) - instrumented range has been measured at 450 km. Typical detection range against fighter-sized targets is approximately 350 km, in a 150° broadside sector, both sides of the aircraft. Outside these sectors, performance is reduced in forward and aft directions.Other system features include:Adaptive waveform generation (including digital, phase-coded pulse compression), signal processing and target trackingTrack While Scan (TWS)Low sidelobe values (throughout the system's angular coverage)Low- and medium-pulse repetition frequency operating modesFrequency agilityAir-to-air and sea surveillance modesTarget radar cross-section displayThe radar operates as a medium- to high-PRF pulse-Doppler, solid-state radar, in E/F-band (3 GHz), *incorporating 192 two-way transmit/receive modules* that combine to produce a pencil beam,* steered as required within the operating 150° sector each side of the aircraft (one side at a time)*. It is understood that Erieye has some ability to detect aircraft in the 30° sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, but has no track capability in this sector. The aircraft could be manoeuvred to permit tracking of targets in these sectors.

The electronically scanned antenna is controlled by an automatic intelligent energy management system, developed to utilise the phased-array technology implemented, pulse-by-pulse, to illuminate any desired azimuth. The ability instantaneously to direct the radar energy in any wanted direction is used by the operator to optimise power management for any particular scenario by assigning priorities to areas of interest, thus optimising probabilities of detection and overall system performance.

http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Avionics/Erieye-AEW-C-Airborne-Early-Warning--Control-mission-system-radar-Sweden.html

For amardeep Indian eye in the sky :


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## v9s

Abingdonboy said:


> Any idea why PAF went for the SAAB 2000 platform over others? especially a jet powered platform with longer range? Especially as (ironically) the majority of Eriye operators use the EMB-145 platform.



Saab 2000 range: 3,218km

EMB 145: 3,019 km

Plus Saab 2000 is more fuel efficient.


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## Alfa-Fighter

v9s said:


> Saab 2000 range: 3,218km
> 
> EMB 145: 3,019 km
> 
> Plus Saab 2000 is more fuel efficient.



What about Speed

SAAB : 680 KM/H
EMB :820 KM/H


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## v9s

Alfa-Fighter said:


> What about Speed
> 
> SAAB : 680 KM/H
> EMB :820 KM/H



Speed isn't significantly important in an AWACs Aircraft, endurance is.

Turboprops give the aircraft a lot of endurance (9.5h+ for the SAAB 2000).


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## Nishan_101

I had a wish that PAC would initiate some turbo prop aircraft project with China like a one: which will have the same capabilities like the P-3Cs means:
An aircraft with some design like of SAAB-2000 but with fuselage capacity similar to P-3Cs, wing area similar or better than P-3Cs but with twin turbo prop engines with wide blades and is being constructed with composites along with a tale like AN-225 which will be helpful as it can be used as AWE&Cs aircraft too and may be foreplanes/canards for better controls. 





An Aircraft like this can be used for martime patrol as well as for AEW&Cs purposes and PAF and PN could buy such an aircraft like:
PAF: 11AEW&Cs and 5 ELINT/EW
PN: 11 MPAs and 5 AEW&Cs for better eye on seas and oceans.

A version with different tale like on Il-76 can be used for civilian purposes and can be sold to international and local markets as wll.


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## nomi007

Alfa-Fighter said:


> What about Speed
> 
> SAAB : 680 KM/H
> EMB :820 KM/H


read the story of rabbit-tortoise



Nishan_101 said:


> I had a wish that PAC would initiate some turbo prop aircraft project with China like a one: which will have the same capabilities like the P-3Cs means:
> An aircraft with some design like of SAAB-2000 but with fuselage capacity similar to P-3Cs, wing area similar or better than P-3Cs but with twin turbo prop engines with wide blades and is being constructed with composites along with a tale like AN-225 which will be helpful as it can be used as AWE&Cs aircraft too and may be foreplanes/canards for better controls.
> 
> An Aircraft like this can be used for martime patrol as well as for AEW&Cs purposes and PAF and PN could buy such an aircraft like:
> PAF: 11AEW&Cs and 5 ELINT/EW
> PN: 11 MPAs and 5 AEW&Cs for better eye on seas and oceans.
> 
> A version with different tale like on Il-76 can be used for civilian purposes and can be sold to international and local markets as wll.


paf already faces financial crisis

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## SBD-3

Nishan_101 said:


> I had a wish that PAC would initiate some turbo prop aircraft project with China like a one: which will have the same capabilities like the P-3Cs means:
> An aircraft with some design like of SAAB-2000 but with fuselage capacity similar to P-3Cs, wing area similar or better than P-3Cs but with twin turbo prop engines with wide blades and is being constructed with composites along with a tale like AN-225 which will be helpful as it can be used as AWE&Cs aircraft too and may be foreplanes/canards for better controls.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An Aircraft like this can be used for martime patrol as well as for AEW&Cs purposes and PAF and PN could buy such an aircraft like:
> PAF: 11AEW&Cs and 5 ELINT/EW
> PN: 11 MPAs and 5 AEW&Cs for better eye on seas and oceans.
> 
> A version with different tale like on Il-76 can be used for civilian purposes and can be sold to international and local markets as wll.


That would depend upon needs, at the moment NAVY seems pretty satisfied with the inventory of maritime air-crafts it has. Secondly, China has just started to manufacture more sophisticated maritime patrol and attack aircraft add PAC's lack of familiarity to it and things get fairly clear. PLAN can afford manufacturing since its need warrant large inventory and thus incentive of local production. Same doesn't hold for Pakistan since NAVY, at max, needs around ten maritime attackers at a given time.



nomi007 said:


> paf already faces financial crisis


Such a project, if it ever happens, would be funded by PN not PAF.........its rather they don't need it than funds availability.

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## nomi007

Such a project, if it ever happens, would be funded by PN not PAF.........its rather they don't need it than funds availability.[/QUOTE]
both need funds from federal govt yar


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## nomi007

1 hope this will be 2nd zdk

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## Armstrong

nomi007 said:


> 1 hope this will be 2nd zdk



Huuun ! I'm sure the big one is going to be an ever-vigilant asset but what the heck is the PAF going to do with the baby Tigers ?

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## Capt.Popeye

Armstrong said:


> Huuun ! I'm sure the big one is going to be an ever-vigilant asset but what the heck is the PAF going to do with the baby Tigers ?



Make them the Mascot of the Squadron operating the ZDKs. 

They're quite nice looking.


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> 1 hope this will be 2nd zdk



3rd ZDK.....!

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## acetophenol

Armstrong said:


> Huuun ! I'm sure the big one is going to be an ever-vigilant asset but what the heck is the PAF going to do with the baby Tigers ?


 
You mean the tigers in the pic? They seem to decorate the dashboard of the car from which the pic was taken


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## Zarvan

What is the range of these radars and How many crew members are there in this plane and are they engineers or what and does this plane also carry some missiles because I have seen awacs which also carry two three missiles don't know of what sought but they carried


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## Nishan_101

nomi007 said:


> 1 hope this will be 2nd zdk


Its Y-9 based MPA that PN might acquire by 2015.


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## Donatello

Nishan_101 said:


> Its Y-9 based MPA that PN might acquire by 2015.



I think they are talking about the one next to the aircraft on right........the one with the radome on the top.

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## Aamir Hussain

Yep you are right. The radome structure requires that the aft structure (Aft of the trailing edge of the wing root) is strengthened during prouvtion and not aftewards as an add-on attachment. Therefore, my guess would be that our bird is the farther one from the camera.


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## Armstrong

acetophenol said:


> You mean the tigers in the pic? They seem to decorate the dashboard of the car from which the pic was taken



Yaar it was said in jest ! Aaap joke keey taang torr dein !


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## air marshal

*ZDK-03 AWACS over Karachi today.*

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## Dazzler

oh yes i saw it too, flying low with grace, going to inspect the Arabian sea to check whether all the onboard systems working fine. It sure is an eye candy

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## TOPGUN

What is the amount of crew used on board do we know ? on the ZDK .


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## air marshal

*ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle*

ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (serial # T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a traditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. The PESA radar is thought to scan electronically in elevation but mechanically in azimuth. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose and tail with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as small vertical stabilizers attached to its tailplanes. Another two MAWS sensors are attached to the tailcone as well. Additional fairings are seen at the wingtips and the tail housing ESM antennas. The Y-8 AWACS protoype was promoted to Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now named ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade high efficiency propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m contract. The first ZDK-03 prototype rolled out in November 2010 at SAC. Since then it has been undergoing test at CFTE (S/N 733). Another 3 were built by late 2011. ZDK-03 is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore ZDK-03 operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The first ZDK-03 (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 11-002) is currently undergoing flight tests. 

- Last Updated 2/19/12

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## sancho

air marshal said:


> *ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle*
> 
> - Last Updated 2/19/12


 
Can you provide the link to the source?


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## DANGER-ZONE

sancho said:


> Can you provide the link to the source?



you could search a little materiel from the Article on Google to dig out the link .... Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force 
let go laziness


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## air marshal

sancho said:


> Can you provide the link to the source?



Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

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## air marshal

*ZDK-03 variant designed specifically for export to the Pakistan Air Force. Consists of a Chinese AESA radar mounted on the Y-8F600 platform. The radar is reported to have a greater range than that of the PAF's Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C radar. [Picture courtesy: Nadeem]*

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## sancho

*Chinese source:*


air marshal said:


> *ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle*
> ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force...
> ...Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a traditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. The *PESA radar* is thought to scan electronically in elevation but mechanically in azimuth . Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. *However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag.*




*Pakistani source:*


air marshal said:


> [/IMG]
> ZDK-03 variant designed specifically for export to the Pakistan Air Force. Consists of a Chinese *AESA radar* mounted on the Y-8F600 platform. The radar is reported to have a greater range than that of the PAF's Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C radar



Interesting is also that the Chinese source states that ZDK will not be able to be linked with western fighters, does anybody has other sources that shed some light in how they will be operated and what kind of sensors the ZDK will have?




danger-zone said:


> you could search a little materiel from the Article on Google to dig out the link .... Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force
> let go laziness



I asked the same at other posts of air marshal as well, so it's not laziness, but a request to post the sources to the articles.


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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> last nite met the OC of the ZDK03 Squadron which will be based at Karachi - Masroor AFB. the AESA radar is confirmed and the operator is very happy with the performance of the AWACS system. its AOR is going to be the southern coastal area from rann of kutch to gwadar. the PAF crews spent ~6 months in China, testing, evaluating and training. the 3rd JFT squadron most likely will be also based at Masroor in order to 'data-link' the fighter with the AWACS.





fatman17 said:


> one final point the nation should whole-heartedly thank the efforts of AC - Virjee who was Project Manager for both the Erieye and ZDK03 systems. a brilliant and dedicated officer in the PAF.


 


sancho said:


> *Chinese source:*
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistani source:*
> 
> 
> Interesting is also that the Chinese source states that ZDK will not be able to be linked with western fighters, does anybody has other sources that shed some light in how they will be operated and what kind of sensors the ZDK will have?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I asked the same at other posts of air marshal as well, so it's not laziness, but a request to post the sources to the articles.


 
Pakistani source is Officer commanding of ZDK-03 squadron and the Project Director of ZDk-03 and SAAB-2000 AWAC Air Commodore Virjee

Yup ZDK-03 can not be directly linked to western aircraft so an in house solution is being developed. A ground interface where ZDK-03 will send it's update which will be re routed to western air crafts. Idea does not appeal much but how PAF will manage all the Cons is yet to be seen

Oscar is part of that team which is working on this solution and he shared this tid bit with us.

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## razgriz19



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## sancho

mafiya said:


> Pakistani source is Officer commanding of ZDK-03 squadron and the Project Director of ZDk-03 and SAAB-2000 AWAC Air Commodore Virjee
> 
> Yup ZDK-03 can not be directly linked to western aircraft so an in house solution is being developed. A ground interface where ZDK-03 will send it's update which will be re routed to western air crafts. Idea does not appeal much but how PAF will manage all the Cons is yet to be seen
> 
> Oscar is part of that team which is working on this solution and he shared this tid bit with us.



Thanks, any infos on the ESM suit?


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## Bratva

sancho said:


> Thanks, any infos on the ESM suit?



Not a single spec has been released. We don't know it's range, sensors, ESm/ECM packages

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## fatman17

mafiya said:


> Not a single spec has been released. We don't know it's range, sensors, ESm/ECM packages



no one will.


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## notorious_eagle

sancho said:


> Thanks, any infos on the ESM suit?



Oscar is the only person whom can answer this question, but i doubt if he will.


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## nomi007

saab head-office





saab-2000 awacs in side





3rd 1 zdk-03

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## fatman17

*ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle* 

ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (serial # T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a traditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. The PESA radar is thought to scan electronically in elevation but mechanically in azimuth. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose and tail with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as small vertical stabilizers attached to its tailplanes. Another two MAWS sensors are attached to the tailcone as well. Additional fairings are seen at the wingtips and the tail housing ESM antennas. The Y-8 AWACS protoype was promoted to Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now named ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade high efficiency propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m contract. The first ZDK-03 prototype rolled out in November 2010 at SAC. Since then it has been undergoing test at CFTE (S/N 733). Another 3 were built by late 2011. ZDK-03 is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore ZDK-03 operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The first ZDK-03 (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 11-002) is currently undergoing flight tests. A recent image (March 2012) suggested that at least one more ZDK-03 has been built.

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## nomi007



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## ice_man

^^ are these pictures photoshopped or real images???


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## nomi007

ice_man said:


> ^^ are these pictures photoshopped or real images???


artistic images


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## DANGER-ZONE

*Another View Of ERIEYE*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

great shot! where was this taken?



edit: is it genuine, or photo-shop image; i actually cant tell! not sure if i recognize the tail number

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## WAQAS119

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> great shot! where was this taken?
> 
> 
> 
> edit: is it genuine, or photo-shop image; i actually cant tell! not sure if i recognize the tail number



It is from Dubai Airshow.


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## DANGER-ZONE

International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > China's Air Force Modernizes On Dual Tracks


> China has developed a plethora of AEW platforms. The Plaaf itself uses the &#8220;high end&#8221; KJ-2000, based on the Beriev A-50, and the smaller KJ-2000 based on the Xian Y-8 turboprop transport, with a &#8220;balance beam&#8221; AESA antenna like that of the Saab Erieye. *China has also exported the Y-8-based ZDK-03 with a &#8220;saucer&#8221; radar array to Pakistan.* These will be joined soon by the Chengdu/Guizhou Soar Dragon box-wing strategic UAV.



What the hell on earth this thing is ??


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## Jango

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> great shot! where was this taken?
> 
> 
> 
> edit: is it genuine, or photo-shop image; i actually cant tell! not sure if i recognize the tail number








This is of the same plane.

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## SQ8

notorious_eagle said:


> Oscar is the only person whom can answer this question, but i doubt if he will.



Im afraid I cant be any more helpful than you on this...
My contribution was on the datalink and protocol. Not what will be transmitted to it.
But.. to add something.. The fact about having to go through a ground station to talk may change.
There was an effort underway to allow partial communication between our western and Chinese assets.


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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Im afraid I cant be any more helpful than you on this...
> My contribution was on the datalink and protocol. Not what will be transmitted to it.
> But.. to add something.. The fact about having to go through a ground station to talk may change.
> There was an effort underway to allow* partial communication between our western and Chinese assets.*



What's keeping PAF at bay for having complete communication between eastern and western platforms? 

If we look at immediate neighbor, they are are and will data link russian assets with western ones. So if ZDK-03 having western COTS communication gear, i'm still unable to comprehend what's blocking it's way to communicate directly with F-16 rather communicating with F-16 through ground station.


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> What's keeping PAF at bay for having complete communication between eastern and western platforms?
> 
> If we look at immediate neighbor, they are are and will data link russian assets with western ones. So if ZDK-03 having western COTS communication gear, i'm still unable to comprehend what's blocking it's way to communicate directly with F-16 rather communicating with F-16 through ground station.



It has to do with communication protocol..
Previously we intended to do protocol conversion on the ground.. Now we designed our own.. that is compatible with Link-16.

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## nomi007

Oscar said:


> It has to do with communication protocol..
> Previously we intended to do protocol conversion on the ground.. Now we designed our own.. that is compatible with Link-16.


sir why paf is not getting help from Sweden for link between saab 2000 and jf-17


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## Bratva

nomi007 said:


> sir why paf is not getting help from Sweden for link between saab 2000 and jf-17



After selling Saab awac, Swedish parliament banned any further weapon purchase to Pakistan. I think due to this reason, Saab is not helping PAF , Only assistance in maintenance, training for Awac handling will be given.


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## fjavaid

mafiya said:


> After selling Saab awac, Swedish parliament banned any further weapon purchase to Pakistan. I think due to this reason, Saab is not helping PAF , Only assistance in maintenance, training for Awac handling will be given.


 
Any source of wot you are claiming ??? if this was the case then PAF wud not have shown its Erieye at Dubai Air show on SAAB'S behalf .... !!!!!


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## nomi007

mafiya said:


> After selling Saab awac, Swedish parliament banned any further weapon purchase to Pakistan. I think due to this reason, Saab is not helping PAF , Only assistance in maintenance, training for Awac handling will be given.


is any source available in this regard of sanction


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## Bratva

nomi007 said:


> is any source available in this regard of sanction






> Sweden banned new arms sales to Pakistan in 2007, but continues to fulfill contract obligations relating to Erieye, said Andreas Ekman, the ISP's director general.
> 
> "*We continue to honor contracts agreed before 2007 until they run out*," said Ekman.



Swedish Arms Exports Rose 7 Percent in 2009 | Defense News | defensenews.com

There was no clause in contract to datalink chinese platform with Saab Erieye so most probably they will not help us and that's why PAF is going solo in this matter and if Saab helped us, we would have seen JF-17 data linked with Saab right now.

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## Dazzler

Very valid point....

Another reason why PAF has not involved SAAB for jf-17 communication was the level of technology involved in the jf-17 that shares many with their primary fighter, the J-10. Chinese requested to keep westerners away from the jf-17 due to this reason and promised to fulfil further AWE&CS requirements in shape of their own version, (the ZDK-03 that we fly today). 

Fortunately, Pakistan has been working on her own sophisticated data communication technology for many years now, that has also supplemented and negated the need of a link-16 in jf-17 which would have revealed many things to the Swedes in case of its upgradation. Oscar can shed more light on this subject.

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## Nishan_101

nomi007 said:


>


 I think its a good chance for the PAF to order 7 Y-9 Transport aircraft and 3 Il-222

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## air marshal

PAF Falcons - Picture Gallery - Aviation Art by Waqar Ahmad Rana






*Pakistan Air Force (PAF) ZDK-03 AWACS.*






*PAF Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control).*

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## fatman17

mafiya said:


> After selling Saab awac, *Swedish parliament banned any further weapon purchase to Pakistan*. I think due to this reason, Saab is not helping PAF , Only assistance in maintenance, training for Awac handling will be given.



where is the news link please.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i think it was even confirmed by Swedish Ambassador.....was discussed on PDF as well


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## fatman17

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i think it was even confirmed by Swedish Ambassador.....was discussed on PDF as well



they have a policy of not selling offensive weapons in conflict zones. this is not PK specific policy.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

it's not a Pakistan-centric policy....same they agreed with countries like Kuwait, Oman etc.



basically the "brown" countries


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## Fazlu

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it's not a Pakistan-centric policy....same they agreed with countries like Kuwait, Oman etc.
> 
> 
> 
> basically the "brown" countries


 
They have no issues with selling weapons systems to India. Not even ToT for that matter.


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## SQ8

Fazlu said:


> They have no issues with selling weapons systems to India. Not even ToT for that matter.



Lets put it in another way..
they have issues selling it to countries they consider potential future enemies.


----------



## sancho

Oscar said:


> Lets put it in another way..
> they have issues selling it to countries they consider potential future enemies.



I think it has more to do with the Taliban/Terrorist problems, since Pakistan is not involved in a war against a neighboring country at the moment. The same (and financial) issues had blocked procurements of other European countries as well and we know that Saab offers their aircrafts and techs for other South Asian, or Gulf countries today, so it must be indeed a more Pakistan specific reason.


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## monitor

AWACS OF THE REGION

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## Areesh

mafiya said:


> After selling Saab awac, Swedish parliament banned any further weapon purchase to Pakistan. I think due to this reason, Saab is not helping PAF , Only assistance in maintenance, training for Awac handling will be given.




I think after this, it's time to close this thread.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/61786-arguments-choosing-thunder-over-gripen.html


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## MastanKhan

mafiya said:


> After selling Saab awac, Swedish parliament banned any further weapon purchase to Pakistan. I think due to this reason, Saab is not helping PAF , Only assistance in maintenance, training for Awac handling will be given.



Hi,

For the reason that PAF deceived the swedes by telling them that they would buy the grippen---found out its capabilities--and started working for their own---.


----------



## Peregrine

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For the reason that PAF deceived the swedes by telling them that they would buy the grippen---found out its capabilities--and started working for their own---.


Any link to validate this statement?


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## ziaulislam

thats a lame excuse, didnt india did the same?..they just marched them around when they weren't interested in single jet engines in first place

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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> thats a lame excuse, didnt india did the same?..they just marched them around when they weren't interested in single jet engines in first place



Hi,

There is a difference between what india did and what pakistan did---india wanted pakistan to see it bargaining power---it wanted to strut around and say---look I have them all standing outside of my door---this indian deal was more of a show---ow.-. You always blunder into something that you did not want in the first place when you have so many choices----.

By rejecting the F 18 and F 16 and F 35's open offers the indians have blundered--otoh---pakistanis were intent and focused on what they wanted from the grippen---. Indians had no intention of building another plane of their own---. They are extremely satisfied with the "one" they have now.



Peregrine said:


> Any link to validate this statement?



Hi,

Why do I need a link to validate---you people need links--you live and thrive on links---.

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## Edevelop



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## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For the reason that PAF deceived the swedes by telling them that they would buy the grippen---found out its capabilities--and started working for their own---.




Yes, if you look at the operational parameters, the JF-17 and Gripen are very similar!! Payload, thrust to weight ratio etc. Also the tail fin, the stabilizers, everything! LOL


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## Imran Khan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For the reason that PAF deceived the swedes by telling them that they would buy the grippen---found out its capabilities--and started working for their own---.




that's something new for me how on earth swedes give us data blue prints of gripen for just talks?with out any agreement mou for buy grippen?

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## ziaulislam

what i meant mastan sahab that india elevated and got more info on gripen then pakistan did while knowing very well that they wouldnt induct it. 
saab knew that if US doesnt allow it they cant get it(engine and some parts plus weapon suit!) and if US allows it they would prefer F-16s so how come this all happened ? doesnt make sense?


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## nomi007

PAF Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C flying near Sargodha

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## Abu Zolfiqar

thanks for posting, my man...did u film it


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## MastanKhan

Imran Khan said:


> that's something new for me how on earth swedes give us data blue prints of gripen for just talks?with out any agreement mou for buy grippen?



Imran,

My apologies my man for any mis-understanding---but nowhere did I mention any blue prints and data exchange---now did I---.

As it is news for you---consider it same hare---it is news to me as well---did you by any chance hear it from some other source that you might not remember.


----------



## Edevelop

Is this the upgraded Dassult Falcon 20 ?

Before:






After: (Notice the Nose and the Belly)


----------



## Imran Khan

cb4 said:


> Is this the upgraded Dassult Falcon 20 ?
> 
> Before:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After: (Notice the Nose and the Belly)




lolz yaar


first on is upgraded Dassault Falcon 20 DA-20 (EW variant) of PAF and second one is Hawker 850XP variant RC-800 for tactical reconnaissance, surveillance and SIGINT (SIGnals INTelligence) tasks in service Republic of Korea Air Force


----------



## Edevelop

Imran Khan said:


> lolz yaar
> 
> 
> first on is upgraded dessult falcon DA-20 of PAF and second one is Hawker 850XP variant RC-800 for tactical reconnaissance, surveillance and SIGINT (SIGnals INTelligence) tasks in service Republic of Korea Air Force



But sir in this 2nd pic why does it say Paffalcons? We must have one then


----------



## Jango

cb4 said:


> Is this the upgraded Dassult Falcon 20 ?
> 
> Before:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After: (Notice the Nose and the Belly)



THis second picture is not of PAF.

Notice the registration number. PAF aircraft s starting from J. This is N23204.


----------



## Edevelop

nuclearpak said:


> THis second picture is not of PAF.
> 
> Notice the registration number. PAF aircraft s starting from J. This is N23204.



Actually Khan Sahab is right. it is a Hawker 850XP 

Check this thread out. Its for our Navy due to be delivered in 2010. I wonder what happened to that
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/69496-hawker-850xp.html


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## Imran Khan

cb4 said:


> But sir in this 2nd pic why does it say Paffalcons? We must have one then



SIR JEE OUR NAVY BUY IT .

4 Hawker 850 Charged with electronic warfare as well transporting VIP personalities, individuals, or groups.

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## Donatello

Guys....these jets of Blinders squadron are not AWACs/ AEWACs....these are SigInt aircraft for signals intelligence. Please post the pics elsewhere as it takes the focus off the true AWACs that PAF is getting.......i.e. those with a proper air scanning radar.


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## Nishan_101

cb4 said:


> Is this the upgraded Dassult Falcon 20 ?
> 
> Before:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After: (Notice the Nose and the Belly)



I am sure that near future these will be easily replace by J-10Bs for ELINT/ECM/SIGNIT with three Electronic warfare Pods


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## geronimo

Is it a Falcon 20 or Falcon2000, it more interesting that happen in pakistan


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## Capt.Popeye

nuclearpak said:


> THis second picture is not of PAF.
> 
> Notice the registration number. PAF aircraft s starting from J. This is N23204.



N23204---its an American Registration Number.

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## nomi007

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> thanks for posting, my man...did u film it


no sir download from utube


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## DANGER-ZONE

Have you ever seen anything beautiful like this .. 
simply lovely.

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## nomi007

pa just put in flight refuelling probe on awacs
like
this


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## Liquidmetal

You are right it is a superb picture. I love seeing our AWACs so more pictures of all our assets will be gratefully received and thank you for finding and putting this on here.

I also love the ZDKs too. Any news of how many we have in the fleet now?

I know this would be wishful thinking but seeing a few pix of the interior would be brilliant just to see how we and the Chinese do it.


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## air marshal

*"CARRYING THE LEGACY"*
http://paffalcons.com/gallery/aviation-art/adnan-siraj/images/Carrying-The-Legacy-large.jpg

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## nomi007

The C-295 is now offered as an airborne early-warning asset




looks like zdk-03

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## fatman17

Liquidmetal said:


> You are right it is a superb picture. I love seeing our AWACs so more pictures of all our assets will be gratefully received and thank you for finding and putting this on here.
> 
> I also love the ZDKs too. Any news of how many we have in the fleet now?
> 
> I know this would be wishful thinking but seeing a few pix of the interior would be brilliant just to see how we and the Chinese do it.



2 delivered to no.4 squadron based at masroor.

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## fatman17

* Y-8G Cub/High New 3*

A new Y-8G (K/JYG8) was first unveiled during Chinese Vice Prime Minister's visit to SAC in April 2005. The aircraft features two large cheek fairings of an arch shape which may house large ECM antenna array for long-range electronic/communication jamming purpose. The ECM antenna array may be the product of the 14th Institute. It also features a redesigned solid nose with the undernose radome removed. A large tail fairing may provide 360 degree coverage. Another cylindrical fairing can be seen on top of the vertical tailfin. The Y-8G prototype first flew in late 2004. Four Y-8Gs have been in service with PLAAF (S/N 21014-21017). Three more entered the service recently (S/N 5125, 5126, 5128). A recent image (May 2012) suggested additional Y-8Gs just entered the service with PLAAF (S/N 20778) 

- Last Updated 5/30/12 

_our ZDK-03 can also be upgraded for this purpose._

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## nomi007

drdo awacs





hope paf will also install refueling probe
saab 2000




http://www.motors.pk/users/photos/16/Saab-2000-Erieye-233.jpg


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## ice_man

^^ DRDO awacs look good!! which platform is this? a Boeing or Airbus?


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## muse

Would you believe Embraer?


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## ANG

nomi007 said:


> The C-295 is now offered as an airborne early-warning asset
> 
> 
> 
> 
> looks like zdk-03


 
Hi, yes but and Israel company (Elbit?) supplies the radar and avionics.... so good luck selling it to Pakistan and any Muslim nation.


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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> drdo awacs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hope paf will also install refueling probe
> saab 2000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.motors.pk/users/photos/16/Saab-2000-Erieye-233.jpg



we don't need it.
Saab 2000 has enough endurance to last over 9 hours.

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## nomi007

ANG said:


> Hi, yes but and Israel company (Elbit?) supplies the radar and avionics.... so good luck selling it to Pakistan and any Muslim nation.


we don't need this
we just need drone technology from iisrael


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## fatman17

*KJ-2000 Mainring * 


A PLAAF KJ-2000 AWACS was approaching the runway before landing. Its prototype was first spotted undergoing testing in Nanjing in 2003, carrying a CFTE emblem (S/N 762). The KJ-2000 prototype was based on Russian A-50I airframe but fitted with an indigenous AEW and a C3I system, including IFF and datalink. The AEW system, developed by Nanjing Research Institute of Electronic Technology/14th Institute, is presumably similar, but slightly inferior to the Israeli Phalcon system. It was reported that the system can track 60-100 aerial targets simultaneously at 400km away. The aircraft features a fixed rotodome housing three AESA antennas in a triangular configuration. As the result a 360° radar coverage can be achieved. A SATCOM antenna is installed inside the fairing on top of the forward cabin. Two large angled ventral fins are attached underneath the tail to compensate the impact of rotodome on aircraft handling. A nose-mounted IFR probe (on #762 only) suggests its operations could be further extended with the tanker (Il-78) support. Following the humiliation of the cancelled A-50I/Phalcon contract with Israel in 2000, China salvaged this A-50I prototype from Israel via Russia in 2002 the Phalcon system removed. It was reported that a significant amount of resources have been invested into this high-priority project (Project 998?) at the 603 Institute/XAC/14th Institute following an executive order issued by the Chinese President. The compete system first flew on November 11, 2003 as KJ-2000 after overcoming various technical difficulties. More KJ-2000s were converted from the China United Airline Il-76MD transport fleet, including B-4040 through B-4043. The first two KJ-2000s were handed over to PLAAF in 2005. Currently 4 KJ-2000s are stationed in Jiangsu Province, facing Japan and Taiwan (S/N 30071-30074). However further conversion from Il-76MD appears to have been halted due to the limited quantity available. Additional KJ-2000 class AWACS may depend on the import of additional Il-76MDs as well as the availability of indigenous Y-20 transport aircraft. 

- Last Updated 12/28/11


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## nomi007

Chinese AWACS's aesa


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## nomi007

probably based at masroor

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## fatman17

no.4 sqdn is based at masroor - OC is WCmdr Asim


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## Donatello

nomi007 said:


> probably based at masroor




whoa....Google Earth updated some regions then!


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## amardeep mishra

how many of you have actually done courses on digital signal processing?
Lecture 1 - Digital Signal Processing Introduction - YouTube


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## Donatello

amardeep mishra said:


> how many of you have actually done courses on digital signal processing?
> Lecture 1 - Digital Signal Processing Introduction - YouTube



I am taking a course on this next semester. I routinely follow video lectures to enhance my understanding, but with this guy, the accent is too damn hard  


Anyway, good video as usual by IITs, but in the wrong section here.


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> whoa....Google Earth updated some regions then!



get the live version for $4,000/yr

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## Nishan_101

I wish that PAF will increase their order to 7 and PN will go for 3-5 of these.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> get the live version for $4,000/yr



Really? Links?


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## v9s

Donatello said:


> Really? Links?



No such thing buddy. There is no real time coverage because google doesn't operate any satellites; it buys them from commercial satellite imagery companies that charge hundreds of thousands of dollars for updated satellite imagery, which is why google takes its time updating it (especially for unimportant areas). Current sat imagery date is 7/17/2011


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> how many of you have actually done courses on digital signal processing?
> Lecture 1 - Digital Signal Processing Introduction - YouTube



Done it, worked it.. and now never want to hear of it again


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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> Done it, worked it.. and now never want to hear of it again


sir,i am currently undergoing intern at the BEL,so i know about the radar systems,and it would come as a pleasant surprise to you that nearly all GBRs under-development in india are AESA,
i cant reveal much,though i can tell you the names of a few radar system that are under devleopment-
for example,
1)MPR
2)aditya radar
both of these are AESA radars,currently being devloped at BEL,the t/r modules for these have been designed at LRDE,and infact they have "PATENTED" it

@oscar,by the way,
do you work on phased array radar systems like i do?

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## regular

Oscar said:


> Done it, worked it.. and now never want to hear of it again


Umm so U were tired of it too.......never liked it......


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> sir,i am currently undergoing intern at the BEL,so i know about the radar systems,and it would come as a pleasant surprise to you that nearly all GBRs under-development in india are AESA,
> i cant reveal much,though i can tell you the names of a few radar system that are under devleopment-
> for example,
> 1)MPR
> 2)aditya radar
> both of these are AESA radars,currently being devloped at BEL,the t/r modules for these have been designed at LRDE,and infact they have "PATENTED" it
> 
> @oscar,by the way,
> do you work on phased array radar systems like i do?



Since any more discussion will be beyond this topic.. 
ill end it with this..
My forte was geared towards advanced modulation schemes for digital radio systems..

There were others were I worked where the sole focus with radars was phased array systems some of which are already operational but undeclared.


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## amardeep mishra

wow,great,
so,you work in pakistan?or somewhere else?if i am NOT mistaken,then pakistan has NO phased array radar,manufactured in pakistan?



Oscar said:


> Since any more discussion will be beyond this topic..
> ill end it with this..
> My forte was geared towards advanced modulation schemes for digital radio systems..
> 
> There were others were I worked where the sole focus with radars was phased array systems some of which are already operational but undeclared.



sir,with due respect,i dont think,pak has any indigenous phased array radar systems?though i would be glad if you can shed some more light


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## TaimiKhan

amardeep mishra said:


> wow,great,
> so,you work in pakistan?or somewhere else?if i am NOT mistaken,then pakistan has NO phased array radar,manufactured in pakistan?
> 
> 
> 
> sir,with due respect,i dont think,pak has any indigenous phased array radar systems?though i would be glad if you can shed some more light



Buddy, read the last line of Oscar's message, we do have undeclared operational phased array ones. 

And since they are undeclared, don't think you will find any information about them.

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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> wow,great,
> so,you work in pakistan?or somewhere else?if i am NOT mistaken,then pakistan has NO phased array radar,manufactured in pakistan?
> 
> 
> 
> sir,with due respect,i dont think,pak has any indigenous phased array radar systems?though i would be glad if you can shed some more light



Pak does not work like India does when it comes to R&D..
Many of our systems are co-developed with China..
for eg.. lets take an example of a phased array system.. then the organizaton would be in a MoU with an institute in China who will be responsible for supplying the hardware(based on technical drawings made in Pakistan) to the organization working on phased array systems in Pakistan. 
so .. once that Pakistani designed T/R module is fabricated in China, it gets shipped here for testing an refinement..and then gets sent back for any changes.
The DSP chip for the Phased system may be sourced as dual use hardware.. 
and locally made software tested on it.. then the whole process of IVTD(integration, verification, testing and deployment) is taken up locally..and the mass order for the final hardware product is placed to the Institute in China.

Security control over R&D in Pakistan is very tight.. and extremely bureaucratic at times.. which is usually a lot less rewarding and probably slower than any parallels in India.. But it is making progress fast enough.. just not as publicly as India's achievements.

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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> Pak does not work like India does when it comes to R&D..
> Many of our systems are co-developed with China..
> for eg.. lets take an example of a phased array system.. then the organizaton would be in a MoU with an institute in China who will be responsible for supplying the hardware(based on technical drawings made in Pakistan) to the organization working on phased array systems in Pakistan.
> so .. once that Pakistani designed T/R module is fabricated in China, it gets shipped here for testing an refinement..and then gets sent back for any changes.
> The DSP chip for the Phased system may be sourced as dual use hardware..
> and locally made software tested on it.. then the whole process of IVTD(integration, verification, testing and deployment) is taken up locally..and the mass order for the final hardware product is placed to the Institute in China.
> 
> Security control over R&D in Pakistan is very tight.. and extremely bureaucratic at times.. which is usually a lot less rewarding and probably slower than any parallels in India.. But it is making progress fast enough.. just not as publicly as India's achievements.



sir,with due respect,i am NOT aware of any indigenous phased array systems in pak,
havent heard of them,
and secondly,which institute in pak,does the research work on PSM modules,or t/r modules?do they have patent?
i know about the erieye and zdk-03,but they are swedish and chinese respectively


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## Jango

Oscar said:


> and locally made software tested on it.. then the whole process of IVTD(integration, verification, testing and deployment) is taken up locally..and the mass order for the final hardware product is placed to the Institute in China.



Mass production takes place in China?


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> sir,with due respect,i am *NOT aware of any indigenous phased array systems in pak,*
> havent heard of them,
> and secondly,which institute in pak,does the research work on PSM modules,or t/r modules?do they have patent?
> i know about the erieye and zdk-03,but they are swedish and chinese respectively



And you will not be aware of it, because they arent standalone systems..
The ZDk and Erieye are two AEW packages purchased as it is from their manufactures.
There are other ground based systems that are deployed without any pomp and show.. (apart from the small tea party held at the handover)..
There are three institutes in Pakistan that have done their research on T/R modules.. two government and one semi-private.
One of them has a complete phased array system as part of a large C4I upgrade about to go hot.



nuclearpak said:


> Mass production takes place in China?



Yup, No facility exists in Pakistan to undertake the sort of substrate printing and manufacturing required for some products.

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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> Pak does not work like India does when it comes to R&D..
> Many of our systems are co-developed with China..
> for eg.. lets take an example of a phased array system.. then the organizaton would be in a MoU with an institute in China who will be responsible for supplying the hardware(based on technical drawings made in Pakistan) to the organization working on phased array systems in Pakistan.
> so .. once that Pakistani designed T/R module is fabricated in China, it gets shipped here for testing an refinement..and then gets sent back for any changes.
> The DSP chip for the Phased system may be sourced as dual use hardware..
> and locally made software tested on it.. then the whole process of IVTD(integration, verification, testing and deployment) is taken up locally..and the mass order for the final hardware product is placed to the Institute in China.
> 
> Security control over R&D in Pakistan is very tight.. and extremely bureaucratic at times.. which is usually a lot less rewarding and probably slower than any parallels in India.. But it is making progress fast enough.. just not as publicly as India's achievements.



sir as far as my knowledge of research and development goes,
1)the research lab produces a "prototype" model of the antennae element,which includes designing the t/r modules in case of AESA and PSM in case of PESA...
2)the prototype is then sent to manufacturing units/manufacturing factories where it is mass produced,
during this stage the production factory makes final changes in the hadware,and produces the final products,
so drawing on similar lines,i wonder which lab is respnisible for the production of PSM/t/r modules for the antennae in pakistan
and if pakistan does have "designed" the t/r modules as you claim,then they would have patented it as well?
i seriously dont think pak has any "indigeous" AESA program...
because for that,one would need,
1)laboratories doing research on radar systems,including t/r modules,LNA,IFA,VA,PA,
2) the manufacturing facilities which mass produce the prototypes,
now the manufacturing units doesnt produce everything in-house,for example-they procure the t/r modules or the PSM from various other companies(either pvt or goverment) after floating tenders
and if i AM NOT mistaken then pak has NOT developed any indigenous phased array GBRs,
either american/EU or chinese


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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> And you will not be aware of it, because they arent standalone systems..
> The ZDk and Erieye are two AEW packages purchased as it is from their manufactures.
> *There are other ground based systems that are deployed without any pomp and show.. (apart from the small tea party held at the handover)..
> *There are three institutes in Pakistan that have done their research on T/R modules.. two government and one semi-private.
> One of them has a complete phased array system as part of a large C4I upgrade about to go hot.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, No facility exists in Pakistan to undertake the sort of substrate printing and manufacturing required for some products.



sir,given the history of amount of research work done in pakistan,i really dont think thats possible,



Oscar said:


> And you will not be aware of it, because they arent standalone systems..
> The ZDk and Erieye are two AEW packages purchased as it is from their manufactures.
> There are other ground based systems that are deployed without any pomp and show.. (apart from the small tea party held at the handover)..
> *There are three institutes in Pakistan that have done their research on T/R modules.. two government and one semi-private.
> *One of them has a complete phased array system as part of a large C4I upgrade about to go hot.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, No facility exists in Pakistan to undertake the sort of substrate printing and manufacturing required for some products.



sir,do you know how much research is involved in developing a t/r module?
let alone t/r module,have you gone through the PSM unit of a PESA?
IF what you are stating is correct,then why dont they have a "*patent*"?


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> sir as far as my knowledge of research and development goes,
> 1)the research lab produces a* "prototype" model of the antennae element,which includes designing the t/r modules in case of AESA and PSM in case of PESA...*
> 2)the prototype is then sent to manufacturing units/manufacturing factories where it is mass produced,
> during this stage the production factory makes final changes in the hadware,and produces the final products,
> so drawing on similar lines,i wonder which lab is respnisible for the production of PSM/t/r modules for the antennae in pakistan
> and if pakistan does have "designed" the t/r modules as you claim,*then they would have patented it as well?*
> i seriously dont think pak has any "indigeous" AESA program...
> because for that,one would need,
> 1)*laboratories doing research on radar systems,including t/r modules,LNA,IFA,VA,PA,*
> 2) the manufacturing facilities which mass produce the prototypes,
> now the manufacturing units doesnt produce everything in-house,for example-they procure the t/r modules or the PSM from various other companies(either pvt or goverment) after floating tenders
> and if i AM NOT mistaken then pak has NOT developed any indigenous phased array GBRs,
> either american/EU or chinese



Not correct, 
The prototypes are designed in house then the design is sent to an external company to produce the prototypes...it is a lengthy process but it does not mean the design is not Pakistani. Think of it like the Tata nano being built outside of India by honda in japan..it still does not make the Nano "Not Indian".
think of it this way..
There is a complete microwave testing lab and range set up near the outskirts of a major city in Pakistan..and is able to produce replacement T/R modules for the AN/TPS-77.(reverse engineered spares).
Along with 3d printers and circuit board facilities from creating the sandwich to placing components onto the system.
However..there are still certain hardware designed in-house which cannot be made..since machines to make denser wafers do not exist in Pakistan and the T/R module which is to be used in the new systems has components that cannot be manufactured in country.



amardeep mishra said:


> ]sir,given the history of amount of research work done in pakistan,i really dont think thats possible,
> [/B]
> 
> 
> sir,do you know how much research is involved in developing a t/r module?
> let alone t/r module,have you gone through the PSM unit of a PESA?
> IF what you are stating is correct,then why dont they have a "*patent*"?



How do you know of the exact history? it seems a hobsons argument from your PoV has you seem to state that which does not exist on the open market hence does not exist.

Lockheed's design for the unique spike intakes for the A-12 spyplane was not patented till 10 years after the aircraft flew.
There are national interests that are kept supreme above everything, Pakistan has no wish to export many of these designs and hence has no need to declare their existence till needed.

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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> Not correct,
> The prototypes are designed in house then the design is sent to an external company to produce the prototypes...it is a lengthy process but it does not mean the design is not Pakistani. Think of it like the Tata nano being built outside of India by honda in japan..it still does not make the Nano "Not Indian".
> think of it this way..
> There is a complete microwave testing lab and range set up near the outskirts of a major city in Pakistan..and is able to produce replacement T/R modules for the APG-77.(reverse engineered spares).
> Along with 3d printers and circuit board facilities from creating the sandwich to placing components onto the system.
> However..there are still certain hardware designed in-house which cannot be made..since machines to make denser wafers do not exist in Pakistan and the T/R module which is to be used in the new systems has components that cannot be manufactured in country.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know of the exact history? it seems a hobsons argument from your PoV has you seem to state that which does not exist on the open market hence does not exist.
> 
> Lockheed's design for the unique spike intakes for the A-12 spyplane was not patented till 10 years after the aircraft flew.
> There are national interests that are kept supreme above everything, Pakistan has no wish to export many of these designs and hence has no need to declare their existence till needed.



so you mean to say that,pakistan has designed the modules(with no prior experience) and sent the modules to china for fabrication?
then why doesnt they reveal the names of the systems that has been designed there
sir i too work at india's premier manufacturing facility yet i find extremely hard to buy your logic


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## Jango

You are arguing that everything that is made should be loudly declared to the world!!!

Things are kept in secret in Pakistan a lot of times, even the aircraft project early on, then the Chinese aircraft systems, they haven't declared them early on in a press conference.


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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> Not correct,
> The prototypes are designed in house then the design is sent to an external company to produce the prototypes...it is a lengthy process but it does not mean the design is not Pakistani. Think of it like the Tata nano being built outside of India by honda in japan..it still does not make the Nano "Not Indian".
> think of it this way..
> There is a complete microwave testing lab and range set up near the outskirts of a major city in Pakistan..*and is able to produce replacement T/R modules for the APG-77.(reverse engineered spares).*
> Along with 3d printers and circuit board facilities from creating the sandwich to placing components onto the system.
> However..there are still certain hardware designed in-house which cannot be made..since machines to make denser wafers do not exist in Pakistan and the T/R module which is to be used in the new systems has components that cannot be manufactured in country.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know of the exact history? it seems a hobsons argument from your PoV has you seem to state that which does not exist on the open market hence does not exist.
> 
> Lockheed's design for the unique spike intakes for the A-12 spyplane was not patented till 10 years after the aircraft flew.
> There are national interests that are kept supreme above everything, Pakistan has no wish to export many of these designs and hence has no need to declare their existence till needed.



since when does pak started manufacturing T/R modules of a highly sophisticated american radar?



nuclearpak said:


> You are arguing that everything that is made should be loudly declared to the world!!!
> 
> Things are kept in secret in Pakistan a lot of times, even the aircraft project early on, then the Chinese aircraft systems, they haven't declared them early on in a press conference.



sir ,with due respect,do you even know what it takes to design t/r modules?
sir pak or for that matter any country declare what it achieves,be it nasr,IRBMs,etc etc,
so ,they would be the first one to declare about the system if they "actually" designed it
and secondly,i would love to know the name of any "indigenous" pakistani radar,be it parabolic reflector type,slotted planar array type,PESA or AESA...


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> so you mean to say that,*pakistan has designed the modules(with no prior experience) and sent the modules to china for fabrication?*
> then why doesnt they reveal the names of the systems that has been designed there
> sir i too work at india's premier manufacturing facility yet i find extremely hard to buy your logic



No prior experience is not correct..
I stated before as to how the T/R module for the TPS-77 set was reverse engineered.. 
That came from the experience working with a Chinese Phased array radar system(although not as sophisticated as it was 2D). 
Building on that experience and with assistance from chinese and european sources.. we have gradually come up with our own designs.. some of which were not successful and dropped.

This is *not a sudden on off spark of brilliance*.. but a long story of mistakes and abandoned projects..

As to the why the names are not revealed Ive already explained it to you before.. DO NOT apply the dynamics of India on Pakistan..This is a security state, there are secrets for secrets.. and people who guard secrets have people guarding them.
There is also NO culture of declaring achievements apart from the odd exhibition or two where you may see a brochure.
for example, the PAC website only lists systems it is prepared to sale.. there is no mention of Missile testing or maintenance.. or any work on C4I systems or otherwise. 
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex

I wish I could scan the desk calender from the place where I used to work, and you would see the multitude of products designed there.. which are nowhere on any website or otherwise.
They are there on that calender and other stationary 



amardeep mishra said:


> since when does pak started manufacturing T/R modules of a highly sophisticated american radar?



My mistake.. its the TPS-77

and check this out.. 
this is how spare parts make it into Pakistan
http://www.mntraders.com.pk/radars.php

Does that look even close to official to you? They have a pharmacy business at the side

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## farhan_9909

alot of R&D is being done in pak.
bt the problem is they are kept secret

AM@you can consider oscar saying as true.
t/r modules isnt a space

we dnt have facilities for certain things bt only because of limited funds nt because of youth talent


mishra bhai oscar is alternative of you in pakistan
as you both deal with alost same field


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## amardeep mishra

farhan_9909 said:


> alot of R&D is being done in pak.
> bt the problem is they are kept secret
> 
> AM@you can consider oscar saying as true.
> t/r modules isnt a space
> 
> we dnt have facilities for certain things bt only because of limited funds nt because of youth talent
> 
> 
> mishra bhai oscar is alternative of you in pakistan
> as you both deal with alost same field



@farhan...bhai,nice to see you around...
salaam!




Oscar said:


> No prior experience is not correct..
> *I stated before as to how the T/R module for the TPS-77 set was reverse engineered.. which gave a start..
> Building on that experience and with assistance from chinese and european sources.. we have gradually come up with our own designs.. some of which were not successful and dropped.
> *
> This is *not a sudden on off spark of brilliance*.. but a long story of mistakes and abandoned projects..
> 
> As to the why the names are not revealed Ive already explained it to you before.. DO NOT apply the dynamics of India on Pakistan..This is a security state, there are secrets for secrets.. and people who guard secrets have people guarding them.
> There is also NO culture of declaring achievements apart from the odd exhibition or two where you may see a brochure.
> for example, the PAC website only lists systems it is prepared to sale.. there is no mention of Missile testing or maintenance.. or any work on C4I systems or otherwise.
> Pakistan Aeronautical Complex
> 
> I wish I could scan the desk calender from the place where I used to work, and you would see the multitude of products designed there.. which are nowhere on any website or otherwise.
> They are there on that calender and other stationary
> 
> 
> 
> My mistake.. its the TPS-77



do you think,US is that fool to let anyone else "reverse-engineer" their t/r modules?
and secondly,mind it,no one,actually "transfers" the tech of t/r modules!!
NOT even china will "transfer" their secret of t/r modules to pakistan
sir,even i have seen photo/ppts of various on going AESA GBRs,but cant upload 'em here...
nonethless,how come do you expect me to buy your logic,given the fact that pakistan hasnt manufactured even a TBF for a parabolic type reflector radar...
i mean,i am also aware of how "research" is done and how it is brought into production(phased array architecture)!!

TBF=transmitter beam former


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> @farhan...bhai,nice to see you around...
> salaam!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> do you think,US is that fool to let anyone else "reverse-engineer" their t/r modules?
> and secondly,mind it,no one,actually "transfers" the tech of t/r modules!!
> NOT even china* will "transfer" their secret of t/r modules to pakistan
> sir,even i have seen photo/ppts of various on going AESA GBRs,but cant upload 'em here...
> nonethless,how come do you expect me to buy your logic,given the fact that pakistan hasnt manufactured even a TBF for a parabolic type reflector radar...*
> i mean,i am also aware of how "research" is done and how it is brought into production(phased array architecture)!!



I dont..
I only answered your queries as you asked as best as I could by highlighting how R&D is done in Pakistan.
its up to you to believe them or not.. it does not effect my CV, or that of the many people involved in such stuff.
Nor will it make a difference when these systems come online.

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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> I dont..
> I only answered your queries as you asked as best as I could by highlighting how R&D is done in Pakistan.
> its up to you to believe them or not.. it does not effect my CV, or that of the many people involved in such stuff.
> Nor will it make a difference when these systems come online.



something is NOT right here!!



Oscar said:


> I dont..
> I only answered your queries as you asked as best as I could by highlighting how R&D is done in Pakistan.
> its up to you to believe them or not.. it does not effect my CV, or that of the many people involved in such stuff.
> Nor will it make a difference when these systems come online.



research over there in pakistan is very different from research over here...


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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> *this is how spare parts make it into Pakistan*
> Radar spare parts in Pakistan
> 
> Does that look even close to official to you? They have a pharmacy business at the side



They even have F-16 spare parts what the heck


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## farhan_9909

Oscar said:


> I dont..
> I only answered your queries as you asked as best as I could by highlighting how R&D is done in Pakistan.
> its up to you to believe them or not.. it does not effect my CV, or that of the many people involved in such stuff.
> Nor will it make a difference when these systems come online.


 
i m happy to knw that into such deep extent R&D is done in pak

in future with more funds
we might also install the facilities of even doing everything at home


i hope this time in def expo ideas 2012
gids/nescom and other such firm would reveal locally developed radar


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## amardeep mishra

farhan_9909 said:


> i m happy to knw that into such deep extent R&D is done in pak
> 
> in future with more funds
> we might also install the facilities of even doing everything at home
> 
> 
> i hope this time in def expo ideas 2012
> gids/nescom and other such firm would reveal locally developed radar



i am axiously waiting to see some really serious stuff across the border...
but given the "state of affairs" of r&d and "ground realities" i am more inclined to think otherwise


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> something is NOT right here!!
> 
> 
> 
> *research over there in pakistan is very different from research over here.*..



If you concentrate on that, you will see why I am emphasizing on that.
research in Pakistan is based more on getting the solution, instead of creating a learning base along the way.
And there is no more research done beyond what is required..
and I myself left this field solely due to the attitude I saw..
which is "_dont make anything that does not counter what India has_".
There is no want to go the extra mile.. no want to try and improve on the production model..
nothing.
Just do as the requirements ask..and forget the rest.

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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> If you concentrate on that, you will see why I am emphasizing on that.
> research in Pakistan is based more on getting the solution,* instead of creating a learning base along the way.
> *And there is no more research done beyond what is required..
> and I myself left this field solely due to the attitude I saw..
> which is "_*dont make anything that does not counter what India has*_".
> There is no want to go the extra mile.. no want to try and improve on the production model..
> nothing.
> Just do as the requirements ask..and forget the rest.



well thats "*explains*" why pakistan lacks "_PATENT_"!!
and over there countering india means gathering stuff either by hook or crook...
yet pakistan lacks indigenous r&d to produce stuff on lines of rajendra PESA,WLR,FLR,ADITYA-AESA,LRTR(sword fish)



Oscar said:


> If you concentrate on that, you will see why I am emphasizing on that.
> research in Pakistan is based more on getting the solution, instead of creating a learning base along the way.
> And there is no more research done beyond what is required..
> and I myself left this field solely due to the attitude I saw..
> which is "_dont make anything that does not counter what India has_".
> There is no want to go the extra mile.. no want to try and improve on the production model..
> nothing.
> Just do as the requirements ask..and forget the rest.



BTW,by any chance have you ever done any project with MSP-430?


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> well thats "explains" why pakistan lacks "PATENT"!!
> and over there countering india means gathering stuff either by *hook or crook...*
> 
> 
> 
> BTW,by any chance have you ever done any project on MSP-430?



Finally.. you get what Ive been trying to tell you. 

My work has been mostly on the Ti C5000 and 6000 series and a little work on Vertex FPGA's.
Currently working freelance on OMAP systems.

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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> Finally.. you get what Ive been trying to tell you.
> 
> My work has been mostly on the Ti C5000 and 6000 series and a little work on Vertex FPGA's.
> Currently working freelance on OMAP systems.



ohh but MSP-430 is very revolutionary...
much better performer than itz compitetors...
over here,we use BGA as well as DIP ...what about in pak?


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> ohh but MSP-430 is very revolutionary...
> much better performer than itz compitetors...
> over here,we use BGA as well as DIP ...what about in pak?



Undoubtedly.. As a low power system it has excellent applications in parallel signal processing and multiple tap filters.
The processor use depends on the application.. for eg.. in a complete stand alone box system like the one I was working on..
A DaVinci system comes in handy as it has an integrated Gpp with the DSP..
So we let the DSP take on the number crunching (which was significant for that particular application) and the GPP handles data transfer and process switching..

And Im going to add another shock..
We even source Indian components from time to time to use in our systems.. 

By *HOOK..or by CROOK.*

Anyway.. we will go very much beyond the topic.. so lets leave this discussion for later.

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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> Undoubtedly.. As a low power system it has excellent applications in parallel signal processing and multiple tap filters.
> The processor use depends on the application.. for eg.. in a complete stand alone box system like the one I was working on..
> A DaVinci system comes in handy as it has an integrated Gpp with the DSP..
> So we let the DSP take on the number crunching (which was significant for that particular application) and the GPP handles data transfer and process switching..
> 
> And Im going to add another shock..
> *We even source Indian components from time to time to use in our systems*..
> 
> By *HOOK..or by CROOK.*
> 
> Anyway.. we will go very much beyond the topic.. so lets leave this discussion for later.



you must be kidding right?lol...hey,would love to continue discussions on these topics...
hey,bro,but i find it extremely hard to buy your logic when you say,the T/R modules have been designed there...i mean,"designing" requires a lot of research,and once you have diligently designed a new system,it'd be your first response to "patent" it...
i am afraid even chinese t/r modules wouldnt have patents....


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## SQ8

amardeep mishra said:


> you must be kidding right?lol...hey,would love to continue discussions on these topics...
> hey,bro,but i find it extremely hard to buy your logic when you say,the T/R modules have been designed there...i mean,"*designing*" requires a lot of research,and once you have diligently designed a new system,it'd be your first response to "patent" it...
> i am afraid even chinese t/r modules wouldnt have patents....



You see an existing design, you adapt it , improve it.. to suit to your own needs..

patents dont apply here, as I told you before..
patents dont apply to the Chinese copy of TI chips..
Patents dont apply to many things... 
Since these are not for export nor will that information learnt ever be shared or sold.


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## amardeep mishra

Oscar said:


> You see an existing design, you adapt it , improve it.. to suit to your own needs..
> 
> *patents dont apply here, as I told you before..*
> patents dont apply to the Chinese copy of TI chips..
> Patents dont apply to many things...
> Since these are not for export nor will that information learnt ever be shared or sold.



WRONG!!
patents are very well applicable in case of t/r modules!!haan,provided you have painstakingly developed it on your own(NOT copying work like chinese),we had a huge seminar on this,when i attended dr christopher's seminar about the indian t/r modules(LRDE currently holds the patent of indian T/R modules)...dr christopher is the current chairman of LRDE(the lab responsible for the r&d of t/r modules)
so,since chinese simply (copy&adapt),the very concept of "*PATENT*" isnt applicable to them...
would you like to have a look at my own video i made at the seminar?

bro,i have myself seen the patent "documents" of indian t/r modules......would post it here as soon as i get back to my hostel

here is what i was looking for-PATENT!!
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1279046.html

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## amardeep mishra

@oscar...
T/R Module Technology
DRDO


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## amardeep mishra

@OSCAR...
here is the complete pdf about the patent granted to LRDE(related with their advanced/revolutionary) t/r modules,go through it completely...
*this is why,you go for patent as soon as you produce something "original" after years of painstaking research(NOT by epsionage)*...hope you get what i have been trying to explain about the "patents"? 
TRANSMIT/RECEIVER MODULE FOR ACTIVE PHASED ARRAY ANTENNA


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## fatman17

Sweden Finalizes AEW&C Contract With Pakistan

Apr 07, 2008 11:12 EDT Related Stories: Air Reconnaissance, Asia - Central, Contracts - Awards, Europe - Other, Other Corporation, Radars, Specialty Aircraft 

In June 2006, Saab signed a SEK 8.3 billion provisional contract to supply S100B Argus turboprop airborne early warning (AEW&C) systems to Pakistan. According to earlier reports at Pakistani Defence, Pakistan aimed to buy 14 SAAB 2000 aircraft from Sweden: 7 for the PAF&#8217;s AEW&C role as Argus aircraft, and the remaining 7 for the state-owned PIA airline. Saab releases, however, have made no mention of a passenger version. 

The Saab aircraft beat a number of other competitors, including Bombardier&#8217;s Dash-8/Q200 and US offers to sell the E-2C Hawkeye system. The Argus AEW&C award also caps a 25-year quest by the Pakistani Air force. The buy was recently reduced somewhat for financial reasons to 5 aircraft, but the first plane has now been rolled out&#8230;.


In &#8220;SAAB 2000 & ERIEYE AWE&C system,&#8221;a Pakistani government site explains the operational need for these aircraft, and chronicles their pursuit of the 707-based E-3C AWACS aircraft and related systems since 1979. Indeed, Pakistan had pursued the Erieye system before, but had been rejected several times under Sweden&#8217;s military export policies. With that roadblock clear, Pakistan has engaged in long negotiations with Saab that have finally come to fruition. With respect to the new aircraft&#8217;s radar capabilities, the article notes that:

&#8220;The Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar uses an active array with 200 solid state modules. The range of the S-band, 3 GHz, and side looking radar is 300 km. The 1,985-lb (900-kg) dorsal antenna is housed in a 29-ft 6.3-in (9-m) long box radome mounted atop the fuselage. Utilizing adaptive side lobe suppression, the look angle on each side is about 160 degrees. From its standard operational altitude of 6000 metres (19,685 feet, or FL200) the radar has a maximum range of 450 km (279 miles). Against a fighter-sized target effective range is approximately 330 km (205 miles). Seaborne targets can be detected at 320 km (198 miles), though this is a function of the aircraft&#8217;s cruising height. The electronically scanned antenna can scan sectors of interest frequently while others are monitored, and a single sector can be scanned in different modes at the same time.&#8221;

That last bit is a reference to the AESA radar&#8217;s ability to scan ground and air activity at the same time, rather than switching between these modes as conventional radars do. An Australian airpower article explains the potential benefits of AESA radars against other AEW&C offerings like the E-2C Hawkeye &#8211; and also notes the limitations of the S100B/Erieye system:

&#8220;The limitation of the two sided array is that it can only cover two 120 degree sectors abeam of the aircraft, leaving 60 degree blind sectors over the nose and tail of the aircraft, and reduced antenna performance from 45 degrees off the beam aspect. Another limitation stems from the use of an airframe too small to accommodate a comprehensive self contained command, control and communications system, and other sensors such as a capable ESM and track association system.&#8221;

Saab&#8217;s corporate release notes that &#8220;two third of the order value is for Saab and one third for Ericsson Microwave Systems [for the PS-890 Erieye radars], witch is, after the Saab acquisition, expected to be a part of Saab in September 2006.&#8221; DID recently covered that acquisition.

Contracts and Related Events:


Over the hump?

April 24/10: Pakistan&#8217;s 2nd of 4 Saab-2000 aircraft lands at an operational base, as preparations are made to induct it into the fleet. PTI.

Dec 14/09: Pakistan&#8217;s Daily Times quotes Minister for Defence Production, Abdul Qayyum Khan Jatoi, who confirms that the 1st Erieye AWACS plane has reached Pakistan, and 3 more planes are expected in 2010. Karachi News.

Oct 21/09: In a ceremony in Linköping, Saab and the Pakistan Air Force celebrate the start of the final tests of the new Erieye AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control) aircraft. The aircraft is currently undergoing system tests in Sweden, which aim is to evaluate the complete system including aircraft, radar, C2 system, communication and live situation picture. Follow on testing in Pakistan later in 2009, including integration into the Pakistan Air Force&#8217;s Command & Control Ground Environment. 

May 28/09: Pakistan&#8217;s Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, is quoted by Pakistan&#8217;s The News International as saying that Pakistan would begin receiving its AWACS planes by October 2009.

April 3/08: China&#8217;s government-controlled Xinhua reports that the first Saab 2000 Erieye aircraft for the PAF was rolled out in Sweden and prepared for flight trials by the year end, after being equipped with a full suite of mission systems. &#8220;The Pakistan Air Force achieved a major landmark in its Airborne Early Warning Program with the roll out of its first Saab 2000 AEW&C in a simple but impressive ceremony at the Saab facility in Sweden,&#8221; the PAF statement said.

The aircraft will be put through trials before being delivered to the PAF in 2009. See also Flight International&#8217;s photo coverage, which puts the total number of Saab 2000 aircraft at 5.

May 28/07: Maybe not quite finalized. A Saab release states that:

&#8220;With reference to the sale of Saab Airborne Surveillance Systems to Pakistan, the customer has for financial reasons and in accordance with the original contract, asked to renegotiate part of the contract concerning a reduction of the number of systems. Together with Saab terms and conditions then have been agreed, concerning a reduction. Saab and the Government of Pakistan continue as planned with the delivery of the system.

As a result of the renegotiation, the order value is decreased by approximately SEK 1.35 billion [DID 8.3B &#8211; 1.35B = 6.95B, a 16.3% reduction and about $1 billion at a May 28 conversion]. Income will decrease proportionally to the volume change, but other commercial terms and conditions will remain unchanged.&#8221;

The number of planes in the revised order was not specified, but a later report placed the total number of Saab 2000 aircraft in the revised order at 5. If the original order had been 6, a 16.3% reduction is about right.

June 22/06: Saab announces a SEK 8.3 billion (approx. $1.15 billion at then-rate conversion) provisional contract for Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) surveillance systems using Saab 2000 turboprops equipped with Ericsson&#8217;s Erieye radar.

&#8220;Two third of the order value is for Saab and one third for Ericsson Microwave Systems, witch is, after the Saab acquisition, expected to be a part of Saab in September 2006.&#8221;


ATR 42-500 to PIA

Nov 3/05: An EADS release says: &#8220;PIA inked an agreement with ATR for the purchase of seven new ATR 42-500 aircraft on November 2, 2005 at PIA Head Office&#8230;. The aircraft will replace PIA&#8217;s aging F-27 aircraft fleet operated on socio-economic routes. The 7 firm 48-seat ATR 42-500 aircraft are scheduled to be delivered between 2006 and 2007 with delivery of the first aircraft to PIA in May 2006. The total value of the contract is approximately US $100 million.&#8221;

PIA&#8217;s fleet of 11 F27s was largely grounded due to safety issues, and Pakistani Air Force C-130s have been pressed into service on some of the state-owned airline&#8217;s local routes as a stopgap. PIA took delivery of its first ATR 42-500 on May 31/06. It&#8217;s possible that rumors of a dual military/civilian Saab 340 buy have just been superseded by events.

(This article originally ran June 26/06)


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## Stealth

I dont know is that real or not but i met some person few years back who have linked with SAAB-PAK contract. He told me that Airforce don't have funds nor Govt interested to give any kind of such fund for purchase. We already stuckd. How after 1/2 years, Pak economy is now more ****. How such deal is possible atleast i can't understand!


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## Bratva

Stealth said:


> I dont know is that real or not but i met some person few years back who have linked with SAAB-PAK contract. He told me that Airforce don't have funds nor Govt interested to give any kind of such fund for purchase. We already stuckd. How after 1/2 years, Pak economy is now more ****. How such deal is possible atleast i can't understand!



Not the complete reason but one of the reasons. Interest shifted to ZDK-03. It was a Pakistani specific version so Pakistan had to incur all the R&D costs... Initially ZDK-03 idea was opposed by top brass of PAF as they were in no mood the reduce SAAB of PAF but thanks to Musharraf futuristic vision, complete dependance on western country was avoided

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## qingshuicun

nobody posted it?

new pic

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## Windjammer

*PAF Special Mission Falcon, which was in France earlier this year, and the in-flight video. 
*

Pakistan Air Force Falcon 20F J-468 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


[video]http://www.flickr.com/photos/trucswitchpouet/7422151840/[/video]

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## JunaidP

it seems kinda "too empty" from the inside.. i always thought the "goodies" would be controlled from a separate workstation manned by someone other than the pilot and copilot..


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## Najam Khan

Windjammer said:


> *PAF Special Mission Falcon, which was in France earlier this year, and the in-flight video.
> *
> 
> Pakistan Air Force Falcon 20F J-468 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> 
> [video]http://www.flickr.com/photos/trucswitchpouet/7422151840/[/video]



J-468 and J-469 differ from each other in EW equipment house inside them. The difference is visible in antenna present above the cockpit and the under belly system . Possibly one of them is for Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) where as other is for Communication Intelligence (COMINT).

J-468










J-469

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## Zarvan

qingshuicun said:


> nobody posted it?
> 
> new pic


These are those which are build for Pakistan ?

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> These are those which are build for Pakistan ?



2 delivered - 2 to go!

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> 2 delivered - 2 to go!


and all four SAAB EriEye have been delivered?
they were supposed to be delivered in 2010 but no official statement have crossed my eye!
can you update sir?

regards!


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## fatman17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> and all four SAAB EriEye have been delivered?
> they were supposed to be delivered in 2010 but no official statement have crossed my eye!
> can you update sir?
> 
> regards!



all erieye delivered along with one saab-2000 transport for training crews.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> all erieye delivered along with one saab-2000 transport for training crews.



thanks a lot sir!
looked for this on internet but couldnt find any news about this. 
after the delivery of second AWE&C equipped aircraft (total three as first one was delivered without Erieye for training purpose) there is nothing available on net. have checked even PAF and SAAB site.
*if you can also post a link to the news it will be really helpful. as i will like to study it if its not present, no problem, we surely trust and belive you and your information! 
*
thanks for the information.


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## Jango

I had seen 3 Saab in Chaklala some months back. One was the training platform.


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## Last Hope

According to my last updates, one Saab-2000 was pending delivery (Late 2011).

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## DANGER-ZONE

Last Hope said:


> According to my last updates, one Saab-2000 was pending delivery (Late 2011).



Yes one Saab Erieye has yet to be delivered. 
we have Total four Saab 2000 including one transport version by now.

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## Arsalan

Last Hope said:


> According to my last updates, one Saab-2000 was pending delivery (Late 2011).


 


danger-zone said:


> Yes one Saab Erieye has yet to be delivered.
> we have Total four Saab 2000 including one transport version by now.



any internet based link to this information or this is your personal source?

i haven't even seen the reports of third Erieye equipped SAAB (fourth overall) being delivered on internet.
different sources are giving different numbers.
all i can find on net is that all were supposed to be delivered by end of 2010 and its mid 2012 now.

it will be helpful if anyone can post some information link please!

regards!

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## Last Hope

arsalanaslam123 said:


> any internet based link to this information or this is your personal source?
> 
> i haven't even seen the reports of third Erieye equipped SAAB (fourth overall) being delivered on internet.
> different sources are giving different numbers.
> all i can find on net is that all were supposed to be delivered by end of 2010 and its mid 2012 now.
> 
> it will be helpful if anyone can post some information link please!
> 
> regards!



My source, is not internet based, but the Dubai Aeroshow in November 2011.


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## DANGER-ZONE

arsalanaslam123 said:


> any internet based link to this information or this is your personal source?
> 
> i haven't even seen the reports of third Erieye equipped SAAB (fourth overall) being delivered on internet.
> different sources are giving different numbers.
> all i can find on net is that all were supposed to be delivered by end of 2010 and its mid 2012 now.
> 
> it will be helpful if anyone can post some information link please!
> 
> regards!



Saab 2000 Erieye Inventory in PAF.
Sr #
1. J019 (Transport)
2. 09049
3. 10040
4. 10025

Sequence (1-4) also represents the delivery of aircraft E.G J019 was the first one to be delivered and 10025 was the last one at Dubai. 
Couldn't find any news on net regarding delivery of 4th bird. Plz Share if you have any.

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## truepakistani17

any news report link to confirm the delivery of 3rd SAAB Erieye AWE&C?


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## sancho

nuclearpak said:


> I had seen 3 Saab in Chaklala some months back. One was the training platform.



Are they operated their or just deployed for a mission and will all Erieyes be operated from the same base anyway, or from different air based in the country?


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## Jango

sancho said:


> Are they operated their or just deployed for a mission and will all Erieyes be operated from the same base anyway, or from different air based in the country?



I dont know about the other ones, but the training version (#J019), without the radar, is based in Chaklala AFAIK.

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## nomi007



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## Trailer23

I don't wanna state the obvious. The _PAF's Saab Erieye_ seems like a great a/c, but a buddy of mine whom I met during the _Dubai AirShow_ flies it for the PAF, pointed at the _Turkish B737 AEW&C (Wedgetail)_ as his dream plane. Can't blame him. I got a tour of both a/c's while I was there (-courtesy of him - ofcourse).

The 737 AEW&C is a bit different from the regular 737-NG's. The airframe is of a regular B737-700, however the wings are longer & are the ones from the -800 (without the winglets).












Lets not forget the cost *$150 million* to *$190 million* per unit. I don't think we're gonna be getting one of these anytime soon.


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## Abingdonboy

Trailer23 said:


> I don't wanna state the obvious. The _PAF's Saab Erieye_ seems like a great a/c, but a buddy of mine whom I met during the _Dubai AirShow_ flies it for the PAF, pointed at the _Turkish B737 AEW&C (Wedgetail)_ as his dream plane. Can't blame him. I got a tour of both a/c's while I was there (-courtesy of him - ofcourse).
> 
> The 737 AEW&C is a bit different from the regular 737-NG's. The airframe is of a regular B737-700, however the wings are longer & are the ones from the -800 (without the winglets).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lets not forget the cost *$150 million* to *$190 million* per unit. I don't think we're gonna be getting one of these anytime soon.



Why did he say that? It's not even the best AWACS system in operation.


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## Trailer23

While we were inside the *B737 AEW&C (Wedgetail)*, the Turkish Crew presented both of us with these bronze coins.






*For High-Res:*
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x161/Trailer23/DSC00584.jpg








*For High-Res:*
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x161/Trailer23/DSC00585.jpg

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## Trailer23

Abingdonboy said:


> Why did he say that? It's not even the best AWACS system in operation.


He was probably intimidated 'cause his Erieye was in between two B737's (Turk AEW&C & flydubai's B737 NG).

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## Arsalan

*DETAILS OF SAAB 2000 Aircraft that are to be given to PAF*

*1st*
Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
Construction Number: 019
Year Built: 1995
PAF Serial Number: J019
Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registration F-GMVB)
*Saab 2000 (c/n 019) was delivered to PAF as standard Saab 2000 in September 2008 with serial# J019 and it is used for training and transport flights.*

*2nd*
Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
Construction Number: 045
Year Built: 1997
Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registrations F-GMVF, LX-RAC, F-GMVU), Lithuanian Airlines (registration LY-SBW)
Previous Operators: Deutsche BA (registratoin D-ADSE), Regional Airlines (registration F-GTSE), Lithuanian Airlines (registration LY-SBC)
*Saab 2000 (c/n 025) was converted to Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C and delivered to PAF.*

*3rd*
Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
Construction Number: 040
Year Built: 1996
Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registration F-GMVE),
*Saab 2000 (c/n 040) was converted to Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C and delivered to PAF*

*4th*
Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
Construction Number: 025
Year Built:1995

*5th*
Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
Construction Number: 049
Year Built: 1997
Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registration F-GMVG)

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## DANGER-ZONE

^It confirms my early claim regarding no of Saab A/C delivered http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...n-awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-186.html#post3117305 but this list seems to be inappropriate and bit old as well.



> 5th
> Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
> Construction Number: 049
> Year Built: 1997
> Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registration F-GMVG)


09-049 was the first aircraft to be delivered and you can see its picture from High Marks 2010 and AFM 2010 high marks edition. 
But here it is not yet delivered !



> 3rd
> Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
> Construction Number: 040
> Year Built: 1996
> Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registration F-GMVE),
> Saab 2000 (c/n 040) was converted to Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C and delivered to PAF


Non have seen its picture by now, i guess but i have seen a few in a private FB profile.  10-040 has also been delivered. 



> 4th
> Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
> Construction Number: 025
> Year Built:1995


10-025 has been delivered in Dubai Air.



> 2nd
> Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
> Construction Number: 045
> Year Built: 1997
> Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registrations F-GMVF, LX-RAC, F-GMVU), Lithuanian Airlines (registration LY-SBW)
> Previous Operators: Deutsche BA (registratoin D-ADSE), Regional Airlines (registration F-GTSE), Lithuanian Airlines (registration LY-SBC)
> Saab 2000 (c/n 025) was converted to Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C and delivered to PAF.


While this Data is bit confusing why to change the serial on delivery to 025, *045* is still in Sweden.

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## Arsalan

i think it is the confusion between 25 and 45.

but again, there is no source of internet that is confirm the delivery of third and fourth Erieye equipped aircraft. all we can do is to relay on some individual's source.


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## fatman17

delivered means handed over ownership to end user. then training and trials start.
inducted means fully trained crews are able to operated the platform. sqdn is assigned.

all i said was all 4 are 'delivered'


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## Shadow_Hunter

arsalanaslam123 said:


> *DETAILS OF SAAB 2000 Aircraft that are to be given to PAF*
> 
> *1st*
> Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
> Construction Number: 019
> Year Built: 1995
> PAF Serial Number: J019
> Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registration F-GMVB)
> *Saab 2000 (c/n 019) was delivered to PAF as standard Saab 2000 in September 2008 with serial# J019 and it is used for training and transport flights.*
> 
> *2nd*
> Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
> Construction Number: 045
> Year Built: 1997
> Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registrations F-GMVF, LX-RAC, F-GMVU), Lithuanian Airlines (registration LY-SBW)
> Previous Operators: Deutsche BA (registratoin D-ADSE), Regional Airlines (registration F-GTSE), Lithuanian Airlines (registration LY-SBC)
> *Saab 2000 (c/n 025) was converted to Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C and delivered to PAF.*
> 
> *3rd*
> Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
> Construction Number: 040
> Year Built: 1996
> Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registration F-GMVE),
> *Saab 2000 (c/n 040) was converted to Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C and delivered to PAF*
> 
> *4th*
> Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
> Construction Number: 025
> Year Built:1995
> 
> *5th*
> Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
> Construction Number: 049
> Year Built: 1997
> Previous Operators: Regional Airlines (registration F-GMVG)



So 17 years of life have already passed? what is the remaining life of these planes?


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## fatman17

Shadow_Hunter said:


> So 17 years of life have already passed? what is the remaining life of these planes?



the a/c airframes were upgraded/MLU please. it adds a lot of flying hours. dont worry they will be around for a while.

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## Nishan_101

I am sure this MPA will be coming soon to PN along with 3-5 AEW&Cs too.


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## Jango

The registration _J _ is used for non-combat aircraft in PAF.

The VIP A310 also has J in it's registration.


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## skydrill_2

actually its western propaganda to increase enemity b/w pak and india so that they can sell their military products as much as possible and earn highly....it will never be acknowledged by both indians and pakistanis unfortunately...


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## nomi007




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## VelocuR

^^This is made in Pakistan supply to NATO. 

Btw, how is related to this thread- "PAKISTAN AWACS"????


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

nice job hassan1


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## Abingdonboy

^^ So is PAF interested in C-295 AWACS?


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> ^^ So is PAF interested in C-295 AWACS?



Hardly.. The 4 erieyes and 4 ZDK's are more than enough.

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## Peaceful Civilian

I think We should get some more AWACS specially for our cruise missile system. 
This can be guided from AWACS as gambit said in # 51 post.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-strategic-forces/185609-babur-cruise-missile-database-4.html


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## nomi007

Peaceful Civlian said:


> I think We should get some more AWACS specially for our cruise missile system.
> This can be guided from AWACS as gambit said in # 51 post.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-strategic-forces/185609-babur-cruise-missile-database-4.html


8 awacs with nearly 7 p 3orion
are enough
we need now to add long range air defense system

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## nomi007



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## Thorough Pro

Three different systems??? come on!




Peaceful Civlian said:


> I think We should get some more AWACS specially for our cruise missile system.
> This can be guided from AWACS as gambit said in # 51 post.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-strategic-forces/185609-babur-cruise-missile-database-4.html


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## Bossman

amardeep mishra said:


> @farhan...bhai,nice to see you around...
> 
> 
> do you think,US is that fool to let anyone else "reverse-engineer" their t/r modules?
> and secondly,mind it,no one,actually "transfers" the tech of t/r modules!!
> NOT even china will "transfer" their secret of t/r modules to pakistan
> sir,even i have seen photo/ppts of various on going AESA GBRs,but cant upload 'em here...
> 
> 
> TBF=transmitter beam former



Well if one goes by what Indian posters post, Pakistan has been fooling the US for the last 60 years and there is some truth to what they say. This is nothing compared to what pakistan has done to the US and still doing it.


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## MastanKhan

@farhan...bhai,nice to see you around...


do you think,US is that fool to let anyone else "reverse-engineer" their t/r modules?
and secondly,mind it,no one,actually "transfers" the tech of t/r modules!!
NOT even china will "transfer" their secret of t/r modules to pakistan
sir,even i have seen photo/ppts of various on going AESA GBRs,but cant upload 'em here...


TBF=transmitter beam former
Original Post By amardeep mishra


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-188.html#ixzz20fN58Qkb


Mister Mishra,

A surprising post indeed----I don't know where you are getting this idea from---maybe not too familiar with the U S of A----the united states of america is the master in the art of reverse engineering----. 

They have let pakistan copy the tomahawk cruise missile---other nations have copied a myriads of american items and americans have copied a myriads of items from other sources---or reverse engineered as you say---. Have they been pi-ssed off at anyone else before---if not then why now.

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## MJaa

Read more: Sino-Pak ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) ~ Pakistan Military Review

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## Last Hope

nomi007 said:


> 8 awacs with nearly 7 p 3orion
> are enough
> *we need now to add long range air defense system*


We need to loads of long range SAMs. Around 20 units only at Eastern border, and 6-8 at Western, 1-2 at Northern and 2-3 at Southern border. Something like FT-2000. These will keep everything away and would minimize the usage of Stand-Off Missiles. 


nomi007 said:


>


For VVIP flights.


MJaa said:


>



PAF Base Shamsi, right? Or Samungli? Background looks like Baluchistan.

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## Mani2020

Last Hope said:


> PAF Base Shamsi, right? Or Samungli? Background looks like Baluchistan.



I think its in china look at the chinese written on the truck besides the aircraft , though blurred

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## ziaulislam

if you are talking of FT-2000 a single unit would cost atleast 150 million..so 20 units around 3-4 billion dollars..thats too much for these days atleast


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## Stealth

nomi007 said:


>



Saw this Aircraft on Thursday (Takeoff from Chaklala Airbase, Rawalpindi)

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## Last Hope

ziaulislam said:


> if you are talking of FT-2000 a single unit would cost atleast 150 million..so 20 units around 3-4 billion dollars..thats too much for these days atleast



A total of 4-7 FT-2000 would be enough, one on Southern sector near Gwadar/Karachi, two in the Western sector, in Baluchistan and KPK, the rest on the Indian border, including one at Northern sector. Rest could be cheaper and smaller ones, just a rough figure I had put forward about 20.


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## Mani2020

Last Hope said:


> A total of 4-7 FT-2000 would be enough, one on Southern sector near Gwadar/Karachi, two in the Western sector, in Baluchistan and KPK, the rest on the Indian border, including one at Northern sector. Rest could be cheaper and smaller ones, just a rough figure I had put forward about 20.



There have been rumors lately that Pakistan and China are working together on a long range air defence system . If so i think that is why PAF hasn't went for any long range air defence system even when they have the option for Chinese ones. Came from the mouth of a senior member on a sister forum but rumors are rumors they can go either way . 

Atleast i would not believe it until something comes out officially

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## razgriz19

delivered ZDK operational with PAF

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## HANI

Mani2020 said:


> There have been rumors lately that Pakistan and China are working together on a long range air defence system . If so i think that is why PAF hasn't went for any long range air defence system even when they have the option for Chinese ones. Came from the mouth of a senior member on a sister forum but rumors are rumors they can go either way .
> 
> Atleast i would not believe it until something comes out officially



as far as i can confirm pak and china are working on long range radar in pak to detect stealth bombers ...............

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## MJaa

Read more: ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle Airborne Early Warning & Control System (AEW&C) ~ Pakistan Military Review

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## Xracer

razgriz19 said:


> delivered ZDK operational with PAF


ZDK-03: A variant designed specifically for export to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Consists of a Chinese AESA? radar mounted on the Y-8F600 platform.The radar is reported to have a greater range than that of the PAF's Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C radar
it really good than Erieye

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## mughaljee

^ how much greater ?


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## bobbybabu007

It is better to be having a different equipment which keeps the enemy guessing the pitfalls....

agreed is the fact that Phalcon AWACs are the most advanced among all... but still they all serve the same purpose....


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## Bratva

I'm intrigued to know how much PAF payed for SAAB AWACS. All over the internet and here it says PAF paid 1 Billion dollar. Initially it was 5 Awacs and 1 trainer. Order Revised, 3 AWACS and 1 trainer, but no body know what was the revised price than? Any one has the IDEA?


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## Nishan_101

People are saying something about Saab 2000 AEW&Cs that one has been damaged and other is being destroyed but some says only one has been damaged. What you say???


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## ANG

Nishan_101 said:


> People are saying something about Saab 2000 AEW&Cs that one has been damaged and other is being destroyed but some says only one has been damaged. What you say???



Hi Mr. Nishan_101, I opened a seperate thread about this. Moderators kindly please delete or merge it, as you deem fit. I just do not want to start a second discussion on this. Thanks.


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## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> *People are saying* something about Saab 2000 AEW&Cs that one has been damaged and other is being destroyed but some says only one has been damaged. What you say???



who are these people...!!!

Aftermath of Base Assault.


&#8226;The aftermath of the brazen Taliban assault on a Pakistani airbase near Islamabad on Thursday reveals that militants were unable to breach the facility beyond its outer security perimeter. According to media reports, the base was at heightened security due to recent intelligence reports anticipating an attack of this nature, and the nine militants were engaged soon after scaling the base&#8217;s perimeter wall. Only one aircraft out of the base&#8217;s fleet, the target of the attack, was slightly damaged in the assault. One more soldier involved in the firefight succumbed to his injuries on Friday, bringing the military&#8217;s death toll from the attack to two.

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## Fieldmarshal

this is what i had written at around 7am local time on an other forum

-early reports suggest that the saab has suffered damage to either its engine or its air frame. The damage is not that great and the ac will become operational very soon. The good thing is that by the grace of ALLAH it did not suffer any damage to its electronics.

-Their has been one fatality on part of PAF.

-The parameter wall is 16 feet high and on top that is a fence supported by barbed wire. It is also supported by close circuit camera. wt is missing is parameter fence sensors.

- This operation was carried out from the south, south west side. their are ridges here that over look the ab.
-The terrorists were being provided covering fire from these ridges, and under this covering fire they tried to enter the airbase.
the terrorists were engaged by the DSG soldier manning the wall. the soldier shot dead a terrorist on the spot but attained shadat in process.
By this time the rapid reaction force had been alerted, which came in to action and engaged the terrorists and in the process were able to push the terrorists to a corner close to their entry point and it their that they were sent to hell.
-according to the initial reports The rpg round that landed near the saab 2000 was also fired from the ridge over looking the airport and due to the distance the effect of the rpg was nullified.

All in all great job by the rapid reaction force/DSG/WSSG and SSG. As no matter how much bs our illiterate and dumb media spreads it is no mean feat defending an air base the size of kamra and that too when civilian population is living all along the boundary wall of the ab.

in addition to wt i had stated earlier in the day, the ac was parked in a hanger and the hanger door was shut and that wt probably saved the ac from major damage or worse total destruction in addition to the fact that the rpg was fired from the ridge that over looks the ab by the handler/terrorist leader who was providing covering fire to the terrorists. After being spotted and challenged he blow him self up. he was the second terrorist to die after the first one was shot by the DSG soldier.

The nose cone of the saab has been demaged and will be sent to sweden for repairs, even though it can be repaired in house.

and by ALLAH's grace i have been vindicated

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## nwmalik

these ridges provide good vantage point for terrorist.
These should be included into the base.
Also i am concerned about the villages around the base. Intelligence agencies must have some agents in villages which are around such high value targets.


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## Fieldmarshal

nwmalik said:


> these ridges provide good vantage point for terrorist.
> These should be included into the base.
> Also i am concerned about the villages around the base. Intelligence agencies must have some agents in villages which are around such high value targets.



the majority of the villagers work at air base and the air men who dont get accommodation at the base usually rent a place in the village.


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## MJaa

The Pakistani Saab-2000 AEW&C uses of new generation radar transmit/receive modules which generate around 60% extra output. Higher operating ceiling of 9,150 m and increased radar output allows Pakistani Erieye AEW&C to detect both air and maritime targets from much longer ranges then the first and second generation Erieye systems.


Read more: Pakistan Air Force's Saab-2000 Erieye Airborne Early Warning And Control Aircraft (AEW&C) ~ Pakistan Military Review

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## Najam Khan

MJaa said:


> The Pakistani Saab-2000 AEW&C uses of new generation radar transmit/receive modules which generate around 60% extra output. *Higher operating ceiling of 9,150 m and increased radar output allows Pakistani Erieye AEW&C to detect both air and maritime targets from much longer ranges then the first and second generation Erieye systems.
> *
> 
> Read more: Pakistan Air Force's Saab-2000 Erieye Airborne Early Warning And Control Aircraft (AEW&C) ~ Pakistan Military Review



Its same as the any other Erieye AEW&C in the world. The following link from Saab's official website says *Service ceiling 30,000 ft*. 1ft = 0.30480000m, which means 30000ft = 9144.0000m

Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C - Technical specifications


*Chart of the ERIEYE AEW&C Coverage*

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## Manticore



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## Donatello

Active phased array pulse doppler radar????

WTH....can anyone explain how can it be phased array and pulse doppler?


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## farhan_9909

is it true that the PAF erieye was the latest of all the other erieye customers?

there were sites claiming of it having more t/r modules and blah blah?


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## MJaa

Najam Khan said:


> Its same as the any other Erieye AEW&C in the world. The following link from Saab's official website says *Service ceiling 30,000 ft*. 1ft = 0.30480000m, which means 30000ft = 9144.0000m
> 
> Saab 2000 ERIEYE AEW&C - Technical specifications
> 
> 
> *Chart of the ERIEYE AEW&C Coverage*


 
*From its standard operational altitude of 6000 metres *(19,685 feet, or FL200) the radar has a maximum range of 450 km (279 miles). Against a fighter-sized target effective range is approximately 330 km (205 miles). Seaborne targets can be detected at 320 km (1998 miles), *though this is a function of the aircraft&#8217;s cruising height.*


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/erieye.htm


higher Service ceiling of Saab-2000 will certainly result in increased capability to look over the horizons

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## Bratva

Somewhere I read, PAF has asked SAAB to customize erieye to cover the blind spots in front and back up to an extent. So instead of 120 Degree scan on either side with 240 degree complete scan, with additional arrays, PAF Erieye can do 150 Degree coverage on either side totaling 300 degree complete coverage leaving 60 Degree blind spots.


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## Nishan_101

MJaa said:


> The Pakistani Saab-2000 AEW&C uses of new generation radar transmit/receive modules which generate around 60% extra output. Higher operating ceiling of 9,150 m and increased radar output allows Pakistani Erieye AEW&C to detect both air and maritime targets from much longer ranges then the first and second generation Erieye systems.
> 
> 
> Read more: Pakistan Air Force's Saab-2000 Erieye Airborne Early Warning And Control Aircraft (AEW&C) ~ Pakistan Military Review


 
Even few aircraft like about 5 Saab-2000 MPA and 2 Saab-2000 AEW&C would be enough for the PN as well to complement the current fleet and then wait for ZDK-03 as well as Y-9 MPAs to come.



bobbybabu007 said:


> This is one scary bird you would not like to mess out with.


 
It sounds that ISRAEL had helped them in this regards.

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## Bratva

guys anyone confirm is it 4 saab awacs plus 1 trainer or 3 saab awacs plus 1 trainer? Because all the previous reports told that it was 4 + 1 but after the attack newspaper said that it was 3 + 1 ?


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## Abingdonboy

Nishan_101 said:


> *
> It sounds that ISRAEL had helped them in this regards.*


Everyone needs help at the start. Either way this is a massive achivment for India.


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## fatman17

*Taliban Anti-Aircraft Troops Score Another Hit*


August 27, 2012: Pakistan recently revealed that an August 17th raid on one of their air bases had damaged one of their four Saab 2000 AWACS aircraft. These are Swedish Saab 2000 aircraft, mounting a Swedish Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar (which consists of thousands of tiny radars that can be independently aimed in different directions). This is similar to the AESA radar used on the American JSTARS aircraft, enabling it to locate vehicles moving on the ground as well as ships at sea and aircraft in flight. The Swedish AESA is cheaper, because its built like a long bar, mounted on top of the aircraft. This means the radar can only see in a 120 degree arc off both sides of the aircraft. A 60 degree arc in the front and back is uncovered. The radar can spot large aircraft out to nearly 500 kilometers and more common fighter sized aircraft at about 300 kilometers. 

The Saab 2000 is a 22 ton, twin prop aircraft, with a cruising speed of 660 kilometers an hour. The aircraft can stay in the air about nine hours per sortie. The Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar is also programmed to spot ships at sea and thus can also fill in for maritime reconnaissance. 

Meanwhile, Pakistan only recently (last February) received replacements for two P-3C maritime patrol aircraft destroyed in a Taliban terrorist attack on a naval air base two years ago. Pakistan now has three P-3s with one more to go on the six aircraft order. The Pakistani P-3s are optimized for maritime surveillance with new electronics and the ability to see the results of all sensors on one display. 

SP



Abingdonboy said:


> Everyone needs help at the start. Either way this is a massive achivment for India.



what else can we expect you to say!


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## farhan_9909

but if the saab 2000 is repairable

than nt a big deal..


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## fatman17

farhan_9909 said:


> but if the saab 2000 is repairable
> 
> than nt a big deal..



it is not but it shouldnt have happened in the first place.

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## dilpakistani

yea it shouldn't have happened at all ... har kuta billa ager iss tarah attack kerkay destory keray ga tu phir .. Allah hi hafiz hai

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## fatman17

*Erieye Radar in layman's language*


The Erieye radar system is an Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) system developed by Saab Microwave Systems of Sweden. It is based on an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA).

The radar is an active, phased-array, medium to high PRF pulse Doppler sensor that can feed to on-board operator architecture or downlink data.

Its antenna is fixed and the beam is electronically scanned, which provides superior detection and significantly enhanced tracking performance compared with older style radar-dome antennas.

The radar provides a broadside sector of 150º on each side and has an instrumental range of 280 miles (450km). It works from low level up to more than 82,000ft (25,000m) and has an effective surveillance area of 193,000 sq. miles (500,000km2). The system can track 500 sea and 1,000 air targets simultaneously, identified either manually or automatically.

For example, the radar can detect/track air targets, sea targets and hovering helicopters simultaneously in a split second. This is applied in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment, in heavy radar clutter and at low target altitudes. It detects small air targets, hovering helicopters, cruise missiles and small sea targets such as jet skis etc. It works in E/F band (3GHz) incorporating 192 two-way transmit/receive modules.

The Erieye system has full interoperability with NATO air defense command and control systems and other LINK 16 equipped assets.


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## Kompromat



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## air marshal

*ZDK-03 'Karakoram Eagle' AWACS with No. 4 Squadron crew members. [Picture courtesy: Directorate of Media Affair, PAF]*

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## IceCold

Aeronaut said:


>



A beautiful plane, provided they can defend the damn thing from terrorists.

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## gambit

Donatello said:


> Active phased array pulse doppler radar????
> 
> WTH....can anyone explain how can it be phased array and pulse doppler?


Sure...

The array is hardware, which includes the 'putah, which we will call the whole thing a 'radar system'. The Doppler signals are software, in other words, any time an object is moving towards/away from the radar, there is a Doppler component in those echoes. Whether the radar system is capable of processing those Doppler signals or not is independent of those echoes, or to put it another way: The Doppler component exists regardless of how capable (sophisticated) is the radar system.

You can design a phased array system to detect and give only general direction -- if you want.

The reason why the phrase 'pulsed Doppler' gained an impression of being a standalone capability is because of the popular use of this component by weather radar. In radar weather coverage, speed and whether the meteorological phenomenon is moving towards or away from us is important and pretty much that is all we care about. So weather radar data processing design tends to give a higher priority to the Doppler component than to other components of the echo signals. The cloud mass is not constant like the fixed shape of an aircraft, so we do not care if aspect angle is to our left or right.

A Method for Determination of Target Aspect Angle with Respect to an Unleveled Radar


> *Aspect angle determination* is essential in many forms of Noncooperative Target Identification (NCTI). This document presents a rigorous development of the mathematics for solving for target aspect angle given target and radar position and attitude. A method for aspect angle estimation given target track data will also be presented.


If the target is an threat aircraft, we do want to know that not only is he heading towards or away from us, but whether he is heading to our left, which may contain our ammo depot, or to our right, which is an empty field. The only way we can determine the target's aspect angle is through the many fixed structures on the target such as wings, bombs, cockpit, and so on. All of these items are transparently calculated by the radar computer when they appear/disappear and a guesstimate (quite accurate and precise) of where the target is heading.

A cloud mass have no such fixed structures. But because the mass is detectable, the least we can do is seek out which component can we best process to give us some information about this target -- Doppler.

A sophisticated phased array system can do many things and Doppler processing is just one of them. But it will cost you. This is not to say that Doppler data processing is outrageously expensive, it just mean that with a phased array system, it would be foolish to pay for hardware without the software to exploit it fully.

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## fjavaid

Its Reported in Tribune that During the Kamra Attack ..One Reconnaissance Air craft was destroyed .....WTH .... is it really true can any body confirm that ..... This is BS if true ........ ...
are our security person sleeping morons ...here is the link to article 

Airbase assault: Initial resistance to Kamra assault seen as


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## SQ8

fjavaid said:


> Its Reported in Tribune that During the Kamra Attack ..One Reconnaissance Air craft was destroyed .....WTH .... is it really true can any body confirm that ..... This is BS if true ........ ...
> are our security person sleeping morons ...here is the link to article
> 
> Airbase assault: Initial resistance to Kamra assault seen as



Incorrect.
The aircraft was slightly damaged.. 
BS reporting.


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## fjavaid

But the Article is referring to PAC report ?????


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## SQ8

fjavaid said:


> But the Article is referring to PAC report ?????



The PAC report states that the aircraft (A Saab-2000 erieye) was damaged in the nosecone and fuselage area and not destroyed.
And will need to go for repairs to sweden.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Oscar said:


> Incorrect.
> The aircraft was slightly damaged..
> BS reporting.


one aircraft saab 2000 was destroyed


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## SQ8

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> one aircraft saab 2000 was destroyed



Would you happen to have an ISPR report on that?

Because unless I missed something in this while.. the last report of it was being damaged and being sent for repairs to sweden.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Oscar said:


> Would you happen to have an ISPR report on that?
> 
> Because unless I missed something in this while.. the last report of it was being damaged and being sent for repairs to sweden.


i am talking about reality , not the ispr report

world know it , 
we are hiding facts from our people ....

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## TaimiKhan

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> i am talking about reality , not the ispr report
> 
> world know it ,
> we are hiding facts from our people ....



Rehan, quit trolling. 

Hiding the destruction of a plane is not an easy task, that also such an expensive and major asset. 

Had that been the case someone by know, would have come up with evidence showing the damaged plane.

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## Jango

TaimiKhan said:


> Hiding the destruction of a plane is not an easy task,...



How??? How is it not an easy task, and a task of HUGELY difficult magnitude? Much bigger things have been kept secret!

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## TaimiKhan

nuclearpak said:


> How??? How is it not an easy task, and a task of HUGELY difficult magnitude? Much bigger things have been kept secret!



what kind of bigger things have been kept secret. Just give me a few examples.


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## Icarus

nuclearpak said:


> Nukes being the biggest. Although the magnitude of both projects could be debated.
> 
> But the point still stands, how could it be difficult to hide a destroyed plane? And the news of it's destruction.



Pretty difficult seeing as journalists camped outside the base and accounted for every plane flying in to or out of the base after the attack to determine if any were destroyed.


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## Hyperion

Icarus said:


> Pretty difficult seeing as journalists camped outside the base and accounted for every plane flying in to or out of the base after the attack to determine if any were destroyed.


Icarus, whatever the case. Why doesn't ISPR come up with clear proof to allay public apprehensions. We have been let-down far too often by our armed forces, therefore, we the people reserve the right for accounting of our national assets!

You being, where you are, why don't you "advise" the seniors to stop being so short sighted and have AHQ arrange a conference with press, after all, we are living in democratic times, aren't we?

Please spare me any righteous speech, I'm three generations forces brat!


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## TaimiKhan

nuclearpak said:


> Nukes being the biggest. Although the magnitude of both projects could be debated.
> 
> But the point still stands, how could it be difficult to hide a destroyed plane? And the news of it's destruction.



First of all, you had media guys posted out and they could have photographed wreck of any aircraft on the tarmac. Not an easy task to hide. Then you have people working inside the base, who could have taken photographs and leaked outside, which we see. You saw the leaked videos of the executions by supposedly PA soldiers, then this is a very small thing compared to those videos. And then you have retired people who could have said anything on media since they have contacts, and mostly you have people on these forums which also have links with people in the air force. I have not seen a single post from any reliable member on the net who has said that the news is true.

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## Icarus

nuclearpak said:


> Pretty fantastic statement that!
> 
> Journos can spot the serial number of a aircraft taking off or landing?
> 
> I wouldn't expect the journalists to be knowing alot. Remember, it was the media that first said that a IL-76 was damaged (the one being shown in the videos), while infact, the IL-76 was on the other side of the runway(North).
> 
> Anyways, lets leave it at this now. Don't want to make this thread into another mine,your,his thread.
> 
> Regards!



Remember that is was the same journos that later said that since the Il-76s had been spotted, it wasn't an Il-76 that was destroyed.



Hyperion said:


> Icarus, whatever the case. Why doesn't ISPR come up with clear proof to allay public apprehensions. We have been let-down far too often by our armed forces, therefore, we the people reserve the right for accounting of our national assets!



In matters of national interest, the ISPR reserves the right to remain quiet about an issue. A lot goes on that the population knows nothing about and it is all for the greater interest of the nation. 



> You being, where you are, why don't you "advise" the seniors to stop being so short sighted and have AHQ arrange a conference with press, after all, we are living in democratic times, aren't we?



I am but a humble analyst, my senior's listen when I tell them how we van fight the TTP, not when I try to tell them how to clock better PR.

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## Hyperion

TaimiKhan said:


> First of all, you had media guys posted out and they could have photographed wreck of any aircraft on the tarmac. Not an easy task to hide. Then you have people working inside the base, who could have taken photographs and leaked outside, which we see. You saw the leaked videos of the executions by supposedly PA soldiers, then this is a very small thing compared to those videos. And then you have retired people who could have said anything on media since they have contacts, and mostly you have people on these forums which also have links with people in the air force. I have not seen a single post from any reliable member on the net who has said that the news is true.


Taimi, now look at the other angle. You know very well about the "long arm" of our armed forces, if there were no truth to this news item, the reporter right now would be hung from his feet @attock. You know, what I mean!



Icarus said:


> I am but a humble analyst, my senior's listen when I tell them how we van fight the TTP, not when I try to tell them how to clock better PR.


LOL....  My humble COIN analyst, my friend, you killed me with "clock better PR"

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## Bratva

TaimiKhan said:


> what kind of bigger things have been kept secret. Just give me a few examples.



Missile test failures, are they ever announced?

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## Hyperion

mafiya said:


> Missile test failures, are they ever announced?


There are no "failures" in science, data is collected from every test, if it didn't perform according to parameters, it's retested again. New science requires multiple tries, till you get it right. Remove the concept of failure from your mind, in anything related to "TESTS"

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## Icarus

mafiya said:


> Missile test failures, are they ever announced?



All public missile launch tests are performed in front of media personnel, no failure can go unreported. Failure during development phase does not warrant any reporting, thus your answer.


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## Xestan

Alright. Maybe some info. that I have will help.

There were two Erieyes at Minhas AB during the attack, I can be wrong but there were at least 2 present at that time. Both of them were parked in their hangers, no Erieye was parked outside, this is a illogical argument, if news channels' cameras can see IL-78MP parked in the open, and C-130 flying, taking off and landing, then why didn't any camera record the wreckage of the destroyed Erieye? Maybe, unless you wanna say that the wreckage was removed while the operation was going on and then it was sent to another galaxy through a space-door. lol Apologies for the sarcasm but people don't think before they come up with conspiracy theories.

The next day, media was invited inside the base. The very next day PAC was up and running again. Does this theory means that no one out of thousands of PAC employees, PAF personnel saw a destroyed aircraft? For God's sake people, stop believing Pakistani media, it's history of defence reporting is like Indian channels report about ISI. Irresponsible!

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## Dazzler

Again, 1 Erieye damaged in the front fuselage section (nose) and is being sent to Sweden, no other aircraft has been destroyed or damaged, not only some people are indulging in conspiracy theories and false reporting but spreading rumours whether unintentionally or on purpose. One thing is for sure, destruction of an AWACS plane could not have remain hidden from media which has gained a paparazzi momentum in the country! The reason why no picture has surfaced of a so called destroyed AWACS is because no AWACS is destroyed.

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## SQ8

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> i am talking about reality , not the ispr report
> 
> world know it ,
> we are hiding facts from our people ....



How do you know your reality is correct, you must provide a certain amount of logic for it.



nuclearpak said:


> Nukes being the biggest. Although the magnitude of both projects could be debated.
> 
> But the point still stands, how could it be difficult to hide a destroyed plane? And the news of it's destruction.



Very.. what is being suggested is that the airplane was destroyed through a suicide attack.. which means that the aircraft would have had massive damage and debris.. No evidence of this is seen. 
The aircraft that was damaged has been reported and is on its way for repairs. 
Any further reports are just "sources" and hype until PROVEN otherwise.



mafiya said:


> Missile test failures, are they ever announced?



Because most of them arent done with untested parameters. 
Ground tests on the engine, guidance.. etc.
Whatever test you see is shown to the media.
A missile test is not cheap... and costs run into hundreds of thousands of dollars per test.
The last failure that was NOT reported was of the Hatf system back in the 90's. 



nuclearpak said:


> As for the first part, yes, 2 AWACS were at the airbase, on the ground. While a third, which was at the base by evening, was in the air. This was the first time that three AWACS had been at one place. The one in the air did not come back to Kamra.
> 
> Secondly, PAF has no IL-86.
> 
> Thirdly, as I have said before numerous times, you don't have to blow an aircraft to kingdom come and burn it to ashes in a volcano to destroy it. Everyone concurs that a RPG landed near the nose, so that is enough proof in itself. * A airframe damage does not need smoke and fireworks. * Remember that Shaheen Air aircraft that had a hard landing at Karachi. It was initially thought that the aircraft was finished because of damage to the wing spar and other parts in the wing root, but later *Boeing officials came and repair works are going on.* The place where media was standing to get pictures was right beside the village, towards the central part of the runway, while the AWACS hangar is located to the east of where the media was, apprx 1 km east. The media was not allowed to go in that area (partly due to the fact that the suicide bomber blew himself up in that area). If you are not following me, see Google Earth.
> 
> And no *media was invited to the base*. Everything you see is by ISPR and PAF photographers.
> 
> Lastly, what I am saying is after knowledge from a PAC official. And PAC is to the north of the Runway. The AWACS and Base Mess and fuel depot and incursion point is to the south of the runway (towards the canal). Apprx distance of 1.5km.



I believe you shall find satisfaction when that aircraft returns to service. 
PAF Kamra is host to much more than just what you see on the news, there is paranoid secrecy surrounding the AWC and other sections for which the media will NEVER be given access for whatsover reason unless measures have been taken beforehand.



nabil_05 said:


> Again, 1 Erieye damaged in the front fuselage section (nose) and is being sent to Sweden, no other aircraft has been destroyed or damaged, not only some people are indulging in conspiracy theories and false reporting but spreading rumours whether unintentionally or on purpose. One thing is for sure, destruction of an AWACS plane could not have remain hidden from media which has gained a paparazzi momentum in the country! The reason why no picture has surfaced of a so called destroyed AWACS is because no *AWACS is destroyed*.



Its typical of Pakistani mentality to jump on conspiracy theories.. The floods, HARP, Kill Switch.. yada yada.


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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> Yes, media is not given access. *There was a no written* before the part you bolded as well. Point being? Some other member suggested that media was taken in the next day.
> 
> The boeing part you highlighted, want to clear it up that it was Karachi, not Kamra.



Media was not shown the entire base(nor was it during the JF-17 ceremonies).

and yes.. the reason I highlighted the Boeing part was that if a complete wheel collapse along with slat damage can be fixed.. So can a damaged radome.


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## Arsalan

Guys guys..
Media can be kept off the base or they can sit by the boundary wall counting planes day in day out.. i mean what else they have to do but to get something disturbing to our people "SAB SA PAHLAY" 

Media can be kept off and uninformed, ISPR can be lieing but even with all that, there are SO many members here alone who have there personal contacts, relatives or friends who can provide with authentic information.
As per what i have been told from the base it support the ISPR statement so i agree to that.
As Taimi suggested, these things cannot be kepth hidden, people will come to know about it and they will share!!
In this case, please, there is nothing more bad then what we have already been informed about! dont try to search for something worst in this episode.
Thanks God we were saved from any major loss!

PLEASE!!! there is no need to speculate that three were destroyed or thirty!! its simply not true!!

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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> There was some fear that the spar and the wing root was damaged by the MLG.
> 
> Now, Oscar, you tell me yourself, if a RPG lands a meter or two in front of the nose, *what are the chances of substantial damage to the airframe of the aircraft??? *



If it struck the ground.. the only damage would be high speed shrapnel.
Which while embedded itself into the aircraft.. would not substantially damage it beyond repair.
There was a fair bit of damage to the radome.. and some electronics were damaged. But nothing that cannot be repaired.

IT WOULD hve been damaged beyond repair had the RPG scored a direct hit and the shaped charge gone through.


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## amardeep mishra

@oscar,hi!
what is the density of the erieye's TRMM?i mean how many channels per board?
MERIL L SCHOLNIK's book and few other sources claim that there are 192 t/r modules,though what they might have meant was,192 TRMM with each TRMM having certain x,y,z channels,
for example in DRDO's patented TRMM,each TRMM has 8-channels(8 distinct t/r modules embedded on a single board)
thanks in advance


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## blain2

A few points. Why is there such an urgent need to prove/disprove that the Erieyes are safe or destroyed? Aside from speculations, there is nothing for or against in this argument that is concrete.

Secondly, contrary to the common public perception in Pakistan, NO, everything does not need to be disclosed to the public. The public does NOT have the right to know all of the details pertaining to national security. The media must not be allowed in sensitive locations because not only is it irresponsible, it also lacks the restraint needed in reporting matters of national security.

Lastly, why should the PAF disclose whether an Erieye has been lost or not? Why should the PAF offer this information to all and sundry? The ones who need to know, i.e. the hierarchy within the PAF, MoD and GoP will know and will have to address it.

What the PAF does need to do is to ensure that the security is as tight as possible. I am just amazed at this zeal that some members demonstrate to make all matters an open secret. This is not how things are done anywhere in the World. I know we are high on our newly found freedom of the media, but there are rules to play by here and the media needs to learn this, the public needs to respect it and understand that there are certain things that the state has responsibility over and if the government decides to hold back on this information, deeming disclosure could impact the national security, then we should accept it. These sort of things do not stay hidden for long. At an appropriate time, some validation of the supposed destruction or operational status of all three platforms will become available. Wait until then with sabr please! Why the sense of urgency and urge to disprove each other?

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## Joe Shearer

blain2 said:


> A few points. Why is there such an urgent need to prove/disprove that the Erieyes are safe or destroyed? Aside from speculations, there is nothing for or against in this argument that is concrete.
> 
> Secondly, contrary to the common public perception in Pakistan, NO, everything does not need to be disclosed to the public. The public does NOT have the right to know all of the details pertaining to national security. The media must not be allowed in sensitive locations because not only is it irresponsible, it also lacks the restraint needed in reporting matters of national security.
> 
> Lastly, why should the PAF disclose whether an Erieye has been lost or not? Why should the PAF offer this information to all and sundry? The ones who need to know, i.e. the hierarchy within the PAF, MoD and GoP will know and will have to address it.
> 
> What the PAF does need to do is to ensure that the security is as tight as possible. I am just amazed at this zeal that some members demonstrate to make all matters an open secret. This is not how things are done anywhere in the World. I know we are high on our newly found freedom of the media, but there are rules to play by here and the media needs to learn this, the public needs to respect it and understand that there are certain things that the state has responsibility over and if the government decides to hold back on this information, deeming disclosure could impact the national security, then we should accept it. These sort of things do not stay hidden for long. At an appropriate time, some validation of the supposed destruction or operational status of all three platforms will become available. Wait until then with sabr please!



I am sorry to inform you that we beat you in this regard as well as so many others. Senior members of the DRDO love the sounds of their own voices, and are never happier than when they are giving the entire world a day-by-day account of the state of top-secret weapons programmes. Nations hostile to us maintain very small intelligence groups to monitor progress, as between these scientists, our general officers and Mr. Paanwala Biriwala who is defense correspondent for our rival Bharat Rakshak, no detail remains to be discovered. If you are disturbed by the absence of one of the usual suspects, this can be worked out within five seconds by anyone who has managed to stay awake for even a short period of time after one of our much-loved politicians opens his mouth in public.

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## Xestan

nuclearpak said:


> As for the first part, yes, 2 AWACS were at the airbase, on the ground. While a third, which was at the base by evening, was in the air. This was the first time that three AWACS had been at one place. The one in the air did not come back to Kamra.
> 
> Secondly, *PAF has no IL-86.*
> 
> Thirdly, as I have said before numerous times, you don't have to blow an aircraft to kingdom come and burn it to ashes in a volcano to destroy it. Everyone concurs that a RPG landed near the nose, so that is enough proof in itself. * A airframe damage does not need smoke and fireworks. * Remember that Shaheen Air aircraft that had a hard landing at Karachi. It was initially thought that the aircraft was finished because of damage to the wing spar and other parts in the wing root, but later Boeing officials came and repair works are going on. The place where media was standing to get pictures was right beside the village, towards the central part of the runway, while the AWACS hangar is located to the east of where the media was, apprx 1 km east. The media was not allowed to go in that area (partly due to the fact that the suicide bomber blew himself up in that area). If you are not following me, see Google Earth.
> 
> And no media was invited to the base. Everything you see is by ISPR and PAF photographers.
> 
> Lastly, what I am saying is after knowledge from a PAC official. And PAC is to the north of the Runway. The AWACS and Base Mess and fuel depot and incursion point is to the south of the runway (towards the canal). Apprx distance of 1.5km.



Just wanted to clear the bold part. It was a typo, I was exhausted of work at that time. Anyways. Post edited.

Rest, I can't convince you. You can believe in your conspiracy theories.

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## VCheng

blain2 said:


> ...
> Lastly, *why should the PAF disclose whether an Erieye has been lost or not?* ...........



Because it speaks directly to the competence of PAF in protecting the precious assets bought by and for the people of Pakistan - in short: *accountability*?

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## Donatello

blain2 said:


> A few points. Why is there such an urgent need to prove/disprove that the Erieyes are safe or destroyed? Aside from speculations, there is nothing for or against in this argument that is concrete.
> 
> Secondly, contrary to the common public perception in Pakistan, NO, everything does not need to be disclosed to the public. The public does NOT have the right to know all of the details pertaining to national security. The media must not be allowed in sensitive locations because not only is it irresponsible, it also lacks the restraint needed in reporting matters of national security.
> 
> Lastly, why should the PAF disclose whether an Erieye has been lost or not? Why should the PAF offer this information to all and sundry? The ones who need to know, i.e. the hierarchy within the PAF, MoD and GoP will know and will have to address it.
> 
> What the PAF does need to do is to ensure that the security is as tight as possible. I am just amazed at this zeal that some members demonstrate to make all matters an open secret. This is not how things are done anywhere in the World. I know we are high on our newly found freedom of the media, but there are rules to play by here and the media needs to learn this, the public needs to respect it and understand that there are certain things that the state has responsibility over and if the government decides to hold back on this information, deeming disclosure could impact the national security, then we should accept it. These sort of things do not stay hidden for long. At an appropriate time, some validation of the supposed destruction or operational status of all three platforms will become available. Wait until then with sabr please! Why the sense of urgency and urge to disprove each other?




Blain,

Taxpayers have a right to know what happened with their money and who the eff was irresponsible enough to let it happen.

All federal employees including armed forces get paid from civilian taxes. Please keep that in mind.


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## Jango

An airplane destroyed is not like a nuke or a Tactical missile program that it is paramount to national security.

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## Bratva

nuclearpak said:


> An airplane destroyed is not like a nuke or a Tactical missile program that it is paramount to national security.



Hint. Some Incidents which happens in balochistan is also given the name of national security. I wonder why "Dead Bodies" are found in open if security establishment insist so much on secrecy.


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## blain2

VCheng said:


> Because it speaks directly to the competence of PAF in protecting the precious assets bought by and for the people of Pakistan - in short: *accountability*?



VC,

Accountability is fine. But accountability to select elected representatives and the government. Not to the entire nation. Please understand the distinction I am making here. Matters of national security, why the breach happened, what the damage was are things that should not necessarily be disclosed to the entire nation. The system for accountability is there, there is MOD, there is the NA/Senate etc. 

Too much disclosure, specifically in the area of national security, is an anathema for those in service.

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## karan.1970

nabil_05 said:


> Again, 1 Erieye damaged in the front fuselage section (nose) and is being sent to Sweden, no other aircraft has been destroyed or damaged, not only some people are indulging in conspiracy theories and false reporting but spreading rumours whether unintentionally or on purpose. One thing is for sure, destruction of an AWACS plane could not have remain hidden from media which has gained a paparazzi momentum in the country! The reason why no picture has surfaced of a so called destroyed AWACS is because no AWACS is destroyed.



No photograph of damaged aircraft has surfaced either.. (at least I havent seen one).. Does that mean no aircraft has been damaged either ?


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## blain2

Donatello said:


> Blain,
> 
> Taxpayers have a right to know what happened with their money and who the eff was irresponsible enough to let it happen.
> 
> All federal employees including armed forces get paid from civilian taxes. Please keep that in mind.



The taxpayers elect people to represent them and then some of these people are assigned the task of focusing on matters of defence and security and providing the "people's" feedback to the relevant institutions. These are the people who serve in the senate's Standing Committee on Defence and Defence Production. 

Please don't be so gullible and misguided to believe that any taxpayer should have every and all details pertaining to matters of the country's national security and defence in front of them as an open book.

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## VCheng

blain2 said:


> VC,
> 
> Accountability is fine. But accountability to select elected representatives and the government. Not to the entire nation. Please understand the distinction I am making here. Matters of national security, why the breach happened, what the damage was are things that should not necessarily be disclosed to the entire nation. The system for accountability is there, there is MOD, there is the NA/Senate etc.
> 
> Too much disclosure, specifically in the area of national security, is an anathema for those in service.



I agree with you 100% here. As long as accountability is there, the appropriate process can be followed through the chain you mention: PAF to the government and the government to the people. Works for me!

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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> No photograph of damaged aircraft has surfaced either.. (at least I havent seen one).. Does that mean no aircraft has been damaged either ?



Elsewhere you have boldly claimed that "one AWACS has been totalled",... yet here you are in a query mode. !!!

What say....any port in a storm.


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## blain2

nuclearpak said:


> An airplane destroyed is not like a nuke or a Tactical missile program that it is paramount to national security.



An aircraft used for surveillance and that too of a very specialized nature is considered paramount to the national security. As some suggested 2 destroyed and one damaged, if this were true, would mean that Pakistan's ability to receive early warning is seriously eroded. If that is not a matter of paramount national security, then what is? Why should the PAF disclose the exact status of its AEW fleet to anyone but the concerned quarters? In such matters, the more discretion, the better.
Why should the PAF divulge details of the attacks? Just so it can open itself up to more probes and attacks?

The problem for most here is that they are used to information overexposure. If its not coming, then the critique takes on the transparency flavor. In some matters, you won't get your way and I hope this remains firmly the case with national security.

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## Windjammer

Guys, i had the privilege to speak to Group Captain Tariq Mahmood a day or so after the incident, his disclosure wasn't no difference then the subsequent official word..... basically one aircraft suffered negligible damage.
Even the eyewitnesses from the adjacent village said, there was no smoke or fire rising out of the compound.

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## Jango

blain2 said:


> Why should the PAF disclose the exact status of its AEW fleet to anyone but the concerned quarters? In such matters, the more discretion, the better.



No, it should not disclose it in a press conference. Neither am I advocating it. There are matters that should be best kept secret.

But I have an opinion about the damage, you people have yours, live with it (and counter logically) rather than ridiculing a person. (not directed at you)

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## VCheng

blain2 said:


> The taxpayers elect people to represent them and then some of these people are assigned the task of focusing on matters of defence and security and providing the "people's" feedback to the relevant institutions. These are the people who serve in the senate's Standing Committee on Defence and Defence Production.
> 
> Please don't be so gullible and misguided to believe that any taxpayer should have every and all details pertaining to matters of the country's national security and defence in front of them as an open book.



At least consideration should be given to an appropriately redacted version of the final report being made public, so as to lay to rest speculation that can prove damaging if left unanswered.

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## Jango

BTW, shouldn't it be kept a secret about the induction of platforms then?? For keeping the enemy guessing and national security?

Why the need for fanfare and then ofcourse the tea party ka kharcha?


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## blain2

nuclearpak said:


> BTW, shouldn't it be kept a secret about the induction of platforms then?? For keeping the enemy guessing and national security?
> 
> Why the need for fanfare and then ofcourse the tea party ka kharcha?



NP,

There is a deterrence value in disclosing a defensive capability that you have. You take on nothing but risk by disclosing what you no longer have or have lost. There is a clear distinction between the two situations.

Simply put, this is like saying: "We have EW and can tell what you are up to." vs. "we lost our EW and cannot tell what you are up to." Why bother disclosing any sort of erosion in your capability?

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## Donatello

That is such BS blain.....

I can understand that covert ops need to remain under cover, but what the Armed forces do with the rest of their operational budget should be known by all.

Actually, Armed forces need to be audited in a transparent manner. For 65 years of existence, they seem more like a parasite on the weak finances of our beloved nation.

Enough is enough. If they cannot secure their assets and bases, they need to resign. Wallah........i can only imagine what could happen in a full out war.

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Oscar said:


> Would you happen to have an ISPR report on that?
> 
> Because unless I missed something in this while.. the last report of it was being damaged and being sent for repairs to sweden.



oscar bhaiy , don't you see the need to have atleast two more sab-2000 a.e.w.a.c.s. apart from what P.a.f. already has ... ?!


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Donatello said:


> Blain,
> 
> Taxpayers have a right to know what happened with their money and who the eff was irresponsible enough to let it happen.
> 
> All federal employees including armed forces get paid from civilian taxes. Please keep that in mind.



why not we taxpayers start struggling for getting that right-to-know by having this zardari accountable first infront of the nation ... !! 

because , afterall , he happens to be the supreme commander of armed forces  so why should not he be held responsible to calm down the apprehensions/reservations of the voters & taxpayers of PakisTan ... ?!?


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Donatello said:


> That is such BS blain.....
> 
> I can understand that covert ops need to remain under cover, but what the Armed forces do with the rest of their operational budget should be known by all.
> 
> Actually, Armed forces need to be audited in a transparent manner. For 65 years of existence, _they seem more like a parasite on the weak finances of our beloved nation._
> 
> Enough is enough. If they cannot secure their assets and bases, they need to resign. Wallah........i can only imagine what could happen in a full out war.



do you know what is our defence budget ?


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Elsewhere you have boldly claimed that "one AWACS has been totalled",... yet here you are in a query mode. !!!
> 
> What say....any port in a storm.



You of all people shouldn't have had any problems with understanding sarcasm

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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> You of all people shouldn't have had any problems with understanding sarcasm



Lala ji, you being some ten years older than me, i thought you would be able to better portray sarcasm than wishful thinking.

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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Lala ji, you being some ten years older than me, i thought you would be able to better portray sarcasm than wishful thinking.



Lala ji..


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## TAC

For those who continue to try to convince us that 1 SAAB was destroyed and 2 SAABS were damaged (interestingly in earlier posts these same people had made iron clad claims that 2 were destroyed and one damaged?!?) - a few questions.....
1. The PAF spokesman repeatedly said only one aircraft sustained damage - was he lieing?
2. The PAF ACM on his visit to Minhas - specificaly said that the enemy aims were reduced to ashes due to the timely and effective response from base defence -- does that sound like the statement of a ACM who just had 1-2 of his prize assets wiped out? was he lieing?
3. The defence minister stated that he had been breifed by PAF senior officers that only one Saab sustained damage to its nose cone. The damage had been assessed and deemed repairable in country although the aircraft would still be sent to the manufacturer for checking to be on the safe side -- did he make all this up? was he lieing?
4. Retired VCAS and former base comander at Minhas Shahid Lateef obviously has contacts throughout PAF and you can be sure he knows far more details of what happened and when compared with anyone on this board or the media. Also note that he is not on any Govt / PAF / ISPR payroll and when PAF deserves it he is very critical of the PAF and Govt - watch his interviews after the Osama raid and you will know what I mean. In various interviews he specificaly stated that there was only one aircraft in the hanger that was attacked - it sustained minor damage and he praised the timely / effective response by the base defenders -- is this reputable, straight talking, undoubtedly knowledgeable, with no axe to grind, retired high ranking officer also lieing?

To counter all the above and more - you have a couple of low end urdu press reports stating that 1-2 Saabs were destroyed - with no named sources. Regardless - detractors of PAF and Pakistan will continue to believe and spend much energy trying to convince others that despite the very obvious odds -- it is actualy the odd urdu press report that is truthfull and not all of the above - that is to be expected.

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## air marshal

*ZDK-03 'Karakoram Eagle' AWACS - Designed by Zeeshan Bangash*

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## Donatello

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;3377721 said:


> do you know what is our defence budget ?




Very good question.

No one know exactly how much the Armed forces consume.

That's why we need to audit them in a 'Transparent' manner.

All i see Armed forces officers doing, is playing golf and taking over civilian posts once they retire.


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## TaimiKhan

Donatello said:


> Very good question.
> 
> No one know exactly how much the Armed forces consume.
> 
> That's why we need to audit them in a 'Transparent' manner.
> 
> All i see Armed forces officers doing, is playing golf and taking over civilian posts once they retire.



I would be wise that you continue this talk on the relevant threads which already exist for such discussion. 

Kindly don't derail this thread with the usual nonsense. 

And for other members also, no need to reply to such posts which derail the thread.

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## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> That is such BS blain.....
> 
> I can understand that covert ops need to remain under cover, but what the Armed forces do with the rest of their operational budget should be known by all.
> 
> Actually, Armed forces need to be audited in a transparent manner. For 65 years of existence, they seem more like a parasite on the weak finances of our beloved nation.
> 
> Enough is enough. If they cannot secure their assets and bases, they need to resign. Wallah........i can only imagine what could happen in a full out war.



PAF cannot secure it's bases and assets?

Many times have the US bases and airbases in Afghanistan come under attacks. Just a few weeks before attack on PAF Base Minhas, second largest US Airbase in the region was destroyed by 10,000KGs. I wonder if you, or most members, are aware of it.

Within a week after the Minhas AB attack, a US Air Base was attack in Afghanistan and a C-17 was damaged. Assault rifles and RPGs were fired on the base and target was C-17 (no details were revealed). The C-17 was used by Defense Secretary of US and he was to return in same aircraft. 

About the budget part, you pay tax and you can see development within the Army. You pay for the security of yourself, your family and your assets. We keep up our word in spill of blood at borders. We have given you what we promised, rest if non of your (civilians) concern. Before raising fingers at us, why don't you ask the government (PPP/politicians) about your tax-money? Why don't you question the money in Swiss banks? Or development/education/water/electricity/municipality departments?


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## VCheng

Last Hope said:


> ...................
> 
> Many times have the US bases and airbases in Afghanistan come under attacks. Just a few weeks before attack on PAF Base Minhas, *second largest US Airbase in the region was destroyed* by 10,000KGs. I wonder if you, or most members, are aware of it.
> 
> Within a week after the Minhas AB attack, a US Air Base was attack in Afghanistan and *a C-17 was destroyed.* Assault rifles and RPGs were fired on the base and target was C-17 (no details were revealed). The C-17 was used by Defense Secretary of US and he was to return in same aircraft.............



Destroyed? Are you sure about that or are these just emotional exaggerations?


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## mylovepakistan

that was damaged i guess,


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## Last Hope

VCheng said:


> Destroyed? Are you sure about that or are these just emotional exaggerations?



Oops. My bad, it faced slight damage. A few bullet rounds.


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Donatello said:


> Very good question.
> 
> _No one know exactly how much the Armed forces consume._
> 
> That's why we need to audit them in a 'Transparent' manner.
> 
> All i see Armed forces officers doing, is playing golf and taking over civilian posts once they retire.


 
18 to 19 % is the defence budget for 2012-13 fiscal year ...


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## ice_man

i personally feel all the SAABs are destroyed! but that is not the point!!! the question is why are the so called TTP going specifically for Pakistan's AEW systems! first the orions then now the SAABs!! 

why is our media quiet about this whole issue! and no one is talking about a definite foreign hand behind these attacks! our media is silent unlike indian media that started ranting Pakistan Pakistan during the mumbai attacks! before any confirmed reports! our media jumps to TTP before knowing anything and then forgets about it!


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## rohailmalhi

ice_man said:


> i personally feel all the SAABs are destroyed! but that is not the point!!! the question is why are the so called TTP going specifically for Pakistan's AEW systems! first the orions then now the SAABs!!
> 
> *why is our media quiet about this whole issue! and no one is talking about a definite foreign hand behind these attacks! our media is silent unlike indian media that started ranting Pakistan Pakistan during the mumbai attacks! before any confirmed reports! our media jumps to TTP before knowing anything and then forgets about it*!


 
The media is sold out all they can do is spread false news , propoganda , fear and lies. They all are going anti Pakistan. There is no hope from Pakistan media , GEO was the one to start the Ajmal Kasab story which was then proved false but it was very late till then but no budy even bother to ask them Y did they showed a fake video .No one even bother asking for any explaination from them.

Well forget it they will ever be in favour of Pakistan they have sold themselves already.(Power of Dollar u know).


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## airbus101

ice_man said:


> i personally feel all the SAABs are destroyed! but that is not the point!!! the question is why are the so called TTP going specifically for Pakistan's AEW systems! first the orions then now the SAABs!!
> 
> why is our media quiet about this whole issue! and no one is talking about a definite foreign hand behind these attacks! our media is silent unlike indian media that started ranting Pakistan Pakistan during the mumbai attacks! before any confirmed reports! our media jumps to TTP before knowing anything
> 
> 
> http://www.app.com.pk/photo/preview/17-08-2012/4b66420ef0459d01f141374c070e6908.jpg


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## Anotherangle

You talk about media people In Pakistan? Well, they are not interested in Pakistan defense. They all from Express Tribune to Dawn have same agenda applied in different ways: my educated guess says they are all on the payroll of CIA etc.


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## SBD-3

just wondering if somebody has posted it or not

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

hasnain0099 said:


> just wondering if somebody has posted it or not


 
beauty , MASHA ALLAH

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## ice_man

how many ZDK03 do we have??? and how well do they compare against our SAAB's does anyone know???


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## Bratva

ice_man said:


> how many ZDK03 do we have??? *and how well do they compare against our SAAB's does anyone know*???


 

Only PAF knows about the specs of ZDK-03 and how they are compare against SAAB's. 2 are delieverd.

Btw, i was thinking large number of antennas we see on ZDK are nowhere to be seen on SAAB's. Is that mean SAAB is more sensor oriented aircraft than ZDK i.e Data linking done through senors embed in the aircraft rather using antennas like on ZDK


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## Viper0011.

ice_man said:


> i personally feel all the SAABs are destroyed! but that is not the point!!!
> 
> the question is why are the so called TTP going specifically for Pakistan's AEW systems! first the orions then now the SAABs!!


 
1) Not all SAAB's were destroyed. The one which sustained damages, did sustain significant damage (more than a 'few' shrapnels or bullets). If you see the communication coming out, they are saying these the Swedish team's preparing to come to the base to assess damage. Pakistan has ALWAYS fixed its own aircraft with damage since 1965. Sabres and Star fighters used to be fixed. So fixing some structural damage is not that big of a deal. however, the damage has been done to the avionics and the radar (along with the structure). Due to which, they can't repair this aircraft and have to send these out to others.

2) Well my friend, your answer to 'why' is what the US has been telling Pakistan since 2001. You guys don't like to hear that or even take that into deep consideration. These terrorists are NOT spreading Islam. These are crazy maniacs who in their sick minds think they are doing Gods work. But there is no such thin. These twisted fuc** are ren-a-killer. They kill their own people, terrorize the population (who is also Muslim I might point out), and have been involved in Ransom cases within Pakistan to gain funding.
Now what stops then from gaining funding from the RAW or anyone else to remain operational and do the job for them???
You are right to think that why the AEW? that has nothing to do with Talibans, etc. But just like the US has said many times to Pakistanis, these guys are the first line threat to Pakistan's stability. Just forget about the US. Look around you and see what's been going on. 
If the 'default' answer is, we are fighting the US's war and that's why the wrath of TTP is upon Pakistan, then you are not thinking straight. 
Imagine if the US wasn't in Afghanistan and had NOT killed hundreds of thousands of these terrorists....what would happen then??
These guys would've STILL caused Pakistan a lot of pain if Pakistan didn't cooperate with them on certain things. Problem is, in that scenario, the bombing within Pakistan, attacks, etc would be 100 times more as these terrorists would be in full strength (man numbers) as there would be no US killing them in Afg. These guys would in that case bring Pakistan to its knees within a few weeks as they'd be a LOT in numbers and there wouldn't be a US next door. 
It is in Pakistan's best interest to root out this issue immediately. In my opinion, Pakistan can ONLY go forward when there are moderate people. Right now, it's two extremes. One group of population is just religion based, the other one is entirely opposite and very advanced. You want people who have moderation, tolerance and respect for others. When the middle fades away, it's always a problem. I think Pakistan should follow Turkey's example and no doubt it'll prosper.


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## Anotherangle

orangzaib said:


> 1) Not all SAAB's were destroyed. The one which sustained damages, did sustain significant damage (more than a 'few' shrapnels or bullets). If you see the communication coming out, they are saying these the Swedish team's preparing to come to the base to assess damage. Pakistan has ALWAYS fixed its own aircraft with damage since 1965. Sabres and Star fighters used to be fixed. So fixing some structural damage is not that big of a deal. however, the damage has been done to the avionics and the radar (along with the structure). Due to which, they can't repair this aircraft and have to send these out to others.
> 
> 2) Well my friend, your answer to 'why' is what the US has been telling Pakistan since 2001. You guys don't like to hear that or even take that into deep consideration. These terrorists are NOT spreading Islam. These are crazy maniacs who in their sick minds think they are doing Gods work. But there is no such thin. These twisted fuc** are ren-a-killer. They kill their own people, terrorize the population (who is also Muslim I might point out), and have been involved in Ransom cases within Pakistan to gain funding.
> Now what stops then from gaining funding from the RAW or anyone else to remain operational and do the job for them???
> You are right to think that why the AEW? that has nothing to do with Talibans, etc. But just like the US has said many times to Pakistanis, these guys are the first line threat to Pakistan's stability. Just forget about the US. Look around you and see what's been going on.
> If the 'default' answer is, we are fighting the US's war and that's why the wrath of TTP is upon Pakistan, then you are not thinking straight.
> Imagine if the US wasn't in Afghanistan and had NOT killed hundreds of thousands of these terrorists....what would happen then??
> These guys would've STILL caused Pakistan a lot of pain if Pakistan didn't cooperate with them on certain things. Problem is, in that scenario, the bombing within Pakistan, attacks, etc would be 100 times more as these terrorists would be in full strength (man numbers) as there would be no US killing them in Afg. These guys would in that case bring Pakistan to its knees within a few weeks as they'd be a LOT in numbers and there wouldn't be a US next door.
> It is in Pakistan's best interest to root out this issue immediately. In my opinion, Pakistan can ONLY go forward when there are moderate people. Right now, it's two extremes. One group of population is just religion based, the other one is entirely opposite and very advanced. You want people who have moderation, tolerance and respect for others. When the middle fades away, it's always a problem. I think Pakistan should follow Turkey's example and no doubt it'll prosper.



Your answer regarding why TTP would attack PAF AWACS does not appeal to common sense of a Pakistani. TTP is a dubious organization. They were never able to challenge Pakistan forces untill 2005.* But after that, under the siege of US troops with a mission to protect Pakistan, they suddenly found the level to damage Pakistan forces?* Strange, isn't it? 

The problem with your line of argument is that we Pakistanis have been living with Talibans since early 1990s, and until 2004 there were no attacks. Thus, majority Pakistani rightly think that these attacks are the result of US war on terror. 

Moreover, I am afraid your point of view about Pakistanis either being religious or ultra-modern is not correct: 90% Pakistanis fall between these two extremes, and quite moderate from any standard. 
However, I agree that it is in the best interest of Pakistan to root out militancy and all the CIA agents in Pakistan and protect its all AWACS with fool proof planning. Today there are terrorists; tomorrow , there could be airborne enemies; then what excuse would we have?

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## Abu Zolfiqar

the aircraft is damaged; but what about the millions of dollars worth of comm. and other equipment inside the aircraft; what is the status of the Ericcson Erieye phased array radar? 


I give critcisim where and when it's due. I've tried avoiding this subject altogether. But if the intel about impending attacks were known (and its no bloody secret, after PNS Mehran - that foreign sponsored proxies want to de-fang Pakistan) --- this was a security breach and a security failure. 

heads should be rolling......

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## Nishan_101

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> beauty , MASHA ALLAH


 
Is PN looking to get three of these in coming 8 years time??? along with some *11 Y-9MPAs???*

Explain the capability of Y-9MPAs according to your self. I have a doubt that ZDK-O3 might be able to carry some weapons on its wings.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Nishan_101 said:


> Is PN looking to get three of these in coming 8 years time??? along with some *11 Y-9MPAs???*
> 
> Explain the capability of Y-9MPAs according to your self. I have a doubt that ZDK-O3 might be able to carry some weapons on its wings.


 p-3 is tailor made for marine surveillance and anti submarine warfare , but unlike p-3 zdk-03 is basically an AEW&C aircraft


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## ice_man

one thing i wish to ask everyone and i hope the media raises this point as well is the following:

since the NATO supplies were stopped no major attack took place on Pakistani soil but since the resumption the attacks have restarted! does that somehow imply that somehow NATO and forces in afghanistan are using border opening as a way to again destabalise pakistan????


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## Arsalan

ice_man said:


> one thing i wish to ask everyone and *i hope the media raises this point as well is the following:*
> 
> since the NATO supplies were stopped no major attack took place on Pakistani soil but since the resumption the attacks have restarted! does that somehow imply that somehow NATO and forces in afghanistan are using border opening as a way to again destabalise pakistan????



They waont, our pathetic media will never say a word about this FACT.

what they should have been done was that is baat ka itna dhandora peta jata that the whole world should have know this.
We should have highlighted this is every forum, on every possible channel. but this is only if the so called PAKISTANI media was one bit sincere with the country!!!
THEY ARE NOT!!


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## Arsalan

ice_man said:


> one thing i wish to ask everyone and *i hope the media raises this point as well is the following:*
> 
> since the NATO supplies were stopped no major attack took place on Pakistani soil but since the resumption the attacks have restarted! does that somehow imply that somehow NATO and forces in afghanistan are using border opening as a way to again destabalise pakistan????



They waont, our pathetic media will never say a word about this FACT.

what they should have been done was that is baat ka itna dhandora peta jata that the whole world should have know this.
We should have highlighted this is every forum, on every possible channel. but this is only if the so called PAKISTANI media was one bit sincere with the country!!!
THEY ARE NOT!!

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## killerx

how many paksitan airfrce AWACS where demaged in the attacks


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## Bratva

like judiciary is bashed, that they releases terrorists but we found out it was the loophole in law system which was plugged by inept civilian government after 4 years of rule and that traitor general musharraf never rectifed the law and blamed the judiciary too for letting terrorists go. Likewise, if our media go on a blame game, they should be provided enough material from security establishment mainly from ISI and MI like NY Times or any american newspaper start its blame game, there is always unnamed officials which are basically CIA and other intel agencies providing them material. For starters, why ISI and MI havent disclosed publicaly about external interference? When they are acting like all spooky and keep up their unexplainable silence, you will see media going crazy and adopting it's own approch towards these issues.

for the last 5-6 years, official tagline of our security establishment is, Sorry we can not share our evidences with you as it will jeopardise the national securtiy?

Can any one tell me what's the national security here? That other countries are insulting us regularly and when our turn comes, security establishment goes mum totally. That's the attitude that frustrates bloody civilians like us!

American blame game started when there top ranking admiral miken mulien accuses ISI. When AQ khan declares he sold nuclear secrets. Have our Security establishment ever accuse anyone publicallyv if not than whatever papers say will be labeled conspiracy theorist.


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> like judiciary is bashed, that they releases terrorists but we found out it was the loophole in law system which was plugged by inept civilian government after 4 years of rule and that traitor general musharraf never rectifed the law and blamed the judiciary too for letting terrorists go. Likewise, if our media go on a blame game, they should be provided enough material from security establishment mainly from ISI and MI like NY Times or any american newspaper start its blame game, there is always unnamed officials which are basically CIA and other intel agencies providing them material. For starters, why ISI and MI havent disclosed publicaly about external interference? When they are acting like all spooky and keep on their unexplainable silence, you will see media going crazy and adopting it's own approch towards these issues.
> 
> for the last 5-6 years, official tagline of our security establishment is,* Sorry we can not share our evidences with you as it will jeopardise the national securtiy?*
> 
> Can any one tell me what's the national security here? That other countries are insulting us regularly and our turn comes, security establishment goes mum totally. That's the attitude that frustrates bloody civilians like us!
> 
> American blame game started when there top ranking admiral miken mulien accuses ISI. When AQ khan declares he sold nuclear secrets. Have our Security establishment ever accuse anyone publicallyv if not than whatever papers say will be labeled conspiracy theorist.



perhaps its already so weak that even the slightest blow now will leave this state open to complete destruction??
Perhaps many misdemeanour's and misappropriations have been made in the name of National security that even the slightest clue could open a Pandoras box.

Just a thought...not a definitive opinion.


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## VCheng

Oscar said:


> perhaps its already so weak that even the slightest blow now will leave this state open to complete destruction??
> Perhaps many misdemeanour's and misappropriations have been made in the name of National security that even the slightest clue could open a Pandoras box.
> 
> Just a thought...not a definitive opinion.



_"Mulki salimiyat to bahut khatra hey!"_ has been a most useful mantra to cover up all sorts of sins for a long time. Why should it change now?

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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> perhaps its already so weak that even the slightest blow now will leave this state open to complete destruction??
> Perhaps many misdemeanour's and misappropriations have been made in the name of National security that even the slightest clue could open a Pandoras box.
> 
> Just a thought...not a definitive opinion.


 
First security establishment allows things to go worse and than they start a cleanup operation.Balochistan is open example, whats the performance of security establishment, Nothing, LeJ flourishing quiet nicely from last two years, baloch insurgency holding against own it's own despite the setbacks, and those measures taken to eliminate insurgency backfired on security establishment and created a void in balochistan which allowed sectarian groups to flourish as security establishment focus was on baloch insurgency now,,,,, on the other hand supreme court frustratedly asked agencies lawyer Raja Irshad, if there is any evidence why dont you share with us and he does aye baye shaye.

This discussion is getting beyond this scope of thread but point i'm making is that Stop blaming the press, our security establishment equally gets a blame and those are handling the issues of WoT dont have an iota of how to do a Media war or PR to project Pak Point of View, than they blame Media is infested with evil yindoo agents. If security establishment handled the Media war effectively they wouldnot have been facing such crises today.Let's take a case of ISI media wing headed by some Admiral and several press reports came about him how he is fond of inviting journalists to tea parties and giving them friendly avices of what to publish or what not to publish. if that's the function of ISI media wing than no wonder, there will be a hell lot of misconceptions about security establishment.


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## Viper0011.

Anotherangle said:


> Your answer regarding why TTP would attack PAF AWACS does not appeal to common sense of a Pakistani. TTP is a dubious organization. They were never able to challenge Pakistan forces untill 2005.* But after that, under the siege of US troops with a mission to protect Pakistan, they suddenly found the level to damage Pakistan forces?* Strange, isn't it?
> 
> The problem with your line of argument is that we Pakistanis have been living with Talibans since early 1990s, and until 2004 there were no attacks. Thus, majority Pakistani rightly think that these attacks are the result of US war on terror.
> 
> Moreover, I am afraid your point of view about Pakistanis either being religious or ultra-modern is not correct: 90% Pakistanis fall between these two extremes, and quite moderate from any standard.
> However, I agree that it is in the best interest of Pakistan to root out militancy and all the CIA agents in Pakistan and protect its all AWACS with fool proof planning. Today there are terrorists; tomorrow , there could be airborne enemies; then what excuse would we have?



Here we go again. As expected, I knew someone would JUST blindly go against the right thing to say or respond with.
Let's be clear here. PNS Mehran, and the most recent attack....these aren't CIA sponsored attacks. IF they had such a big deal with PNS Mehran or the SAAB AWACS, they wouldn't have given it to Pakistan on the first place. Sad to see the typical street mentality that CIA is behind everything in Pakistan.
The MQM and Jamat-e-islami, etc, etc were militarizing their groups WAY BEFORE the 911 incident. So you are going to tell me that all that weapon buying sprees and arming their men to teeth was for.....securing the local banks??? Common man, talk some sense here.
You 'think' you were living with piece with Taliban and life was going to be great....so what happened? The same 'peaceful' taliban turned on you after the US went to 911 right? So what makes you think that they wouldn't have turned to you if another incident NOT involving the US would've happened???
It's very easy to point fingers to someone else and say 'it's his fault' vs. take a look inside your heart and say, yes, we got an issue, we need to deal with it for our next generation.
Let me give you another example, may be that'll help. Islam / Qur'an says, killing ONE person (doesn't matter what religion) is like killing the whole humanity. There's no justification for it. Similarly, wherever the 'real' Islamic followers went, they NEVER harmed the women, children, etc, etc (see Kingdom of heaven or Salla Din or other history). So....why the peaceful taliban trying to spread God's message in your opinion killing civilians here? 
The ANSWER is that these people are rent-a-killer organization. The moment you go against them for any reason, they won't care about the religion, race, color, etc. They'll try to kill civilians and others a like!!! 
Right now, what stops them from working with the Indians or whatever other enemies Pakistan has??? This is a rent-a-killer organization. For money and their motives, they'll kill anyone and thus, the Mehrans and other attacks. Go figure. This should be a national priority for the Pakistanis to understand moderation and tolerance. In Karachi alone, how many people get killed daily because they belong to a different political party, let alone a different religion!!! How many people get killed in Baluchistan when they remove people from the buses and see their documents. If anything says that they are Punjabi or Sindhi.....bam. The person gets to die. This is a pure example of intolerance in people's minds. 

And my point of view is based on pure facts. I know a lot of Indians and Pakistanis and every single Pakistani I meet, says the SAME thing.

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## Nishan_101

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> p-3 is tailor made for marine surveillance and anti submarine warfare , but unlike p-3 zdk-03 is basically an AEW&C aircraft


 
I mean 11Y-9MPAs and for AEW&Cs 3-5ZDK-03(Y-9AEW&Cs)


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## blain2

Donatello said:


> That is such BS blain.....
> 
> I can understand that covert ops need to remain under cover, but what the Armed forces do with the rest of their operational budget should be known by all.
> 
> Actually, Armed forces need to be audited in a transparent manner. For 65 years of existence, they seem more like a parasite on the weak finances of our beloved nation.
> 
> Enough is enough. If they cannot secure their assets and bases, they need to resign. Wallah........i can only imagine what could happen in a full out war.



Some logic and sense should prevail. Disclosing military capabilities is not the same as disclosing the military spend. Please understand that there is a distinction between the two. Information that discloses state of military readiness is not fair game. 

Armed forces more than pay their fair share of what is given to them by the nation. Every single natural disaster, they come to the aid of the countrymen, every disturbance, they come to the aid of the civil power. The military consumes less than 4% of GDP. Much lower than many other countries around the world.

Lastly, in case of a war, you protect against external threats. You rely on your citizens to assist you against the common enemy. When you have fifth columnists and militants on the inside, it is that much harder to protect your bases.



VCheng said:


> _"Mulki salimiyat to bahut khatra hey!"_ has been a most useful mantra to cover up all sorts of sins for a long time. Why should it change now?



*ko* bahut khatra hai ;-)

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## fatman17

killerx said:


> how many paksitan airfrce AWACS where demaged in the attacks



bhai all of them - PK does not have AWACS/MPA assets anymore - is everyone happy!!
pl close this thread.

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## VCheng

blain2 said:


> ..................
> 
> *ko* bahut khatra hai ;-)



Thank you for correcting the typo.

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## blain2

To add to my response to Donatello's observation about the Army being a parasite etc., here is something just from today's news:

Army, FC carry out relief operation in Balochistan | DAWN.COM


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## air marshal

*Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C - Designed by Zeeshan Bangash*

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## Abingdonboy

Is the radar on the ZDK-03 a PESA or a AESA?


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> Is the radar on the ZDK-03 a PESA or a AESA?



AESA , but scans only in the vertical..


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## Liquidmetal

air marshal said:


> *Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C - Designed by Zeeshan Bangash*



Hi 

Does any know or can confirm the status of these awacs. There is considerable angst and rumours that 1 or possibly 2 were destroyed due to the terrorist actions against Kamra base.

There has been silence from the media and the military will not disclose such a big loss. 

However, we the people have a right to know what is happening to our assets that we had paid for.

In particular we need to know why our intelligence and our base protection failed so miserably.

I wish no hurt to anyone for asking these questions but I feel strongly that we should be told the truth and the incompetent and negligent people removed from their posts so that better personnel can come through and take command of our properties.


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## Last Hope

Liquidmetal said:


> Hi
> 
> Does any know or can confirm the status of these awacs. There is considerable angst and rumours that 1 or possibly 2 were destroyed due to the terrorist actions against Kamra base.
> 
> There has been silence from the media and the military will not disclose such a big loss.
> 
> However, we the people have a right to know what is happening to our assets that we had paid for.
> 
> In particular we need to know why our intelligence and our base protection failed so miserably.
> 
> I wish no hurt to anyone for asking these questions but I feel strongly that we should be told the truth and the incompetent and negligent people removed from their posts so that better personnel can come through and take command of our properties.



PAF Base Kamra was a costly failure of Intelligence and lack of trained security. The perimeter boundary was manned by civilian security guards.

All the AWACS and AEW&C of PAF were present at PAF Base Minhas NOT Chaklala. And 3 of four IL-78 were present too. One of the Saab-2000 hot a direct hit from RPG which exploded. The flames latter on reached the IL-78s which were filled with a kind of jet fuel that doesn't give smoky flame. All the three IL-78s exploded which resulted in damage to ALL AWACS and AEW&C aircrafts. The JF-17 production line was also totaled, hence the Block-2 is now delayed for 15 months.


Ofcourse ISPR and PAF doesn't want you to know this, and my source is Tahir Butt (Air Chief).


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## karan.1970

Last Hope said:


> PAF Base Kamra was a costly failure of Intelligence and lack of trained security. The perimeter boundary was manned by civilian security guards.
> 
> All the AWACS and AEW&C of PAF were present at PAF Base Minhas NOT Chaklala. And 3 of four IL-78 were present too. One of the Saab-2000 hot a direct hit from RPG which exploded. The flames latter on reached the IL-78s which were filled with a kind of jet fuel that doesn't give smoky flame. All the three IL-78s exploded which resulted in damage to ALL AWACS and AEW&C aircrafts. The JF-17 production line was also totaled, hence the Block-2 is now delayed for 15 months.
> 
> 
> Ofcourse ISPR and PAF doesn't want you to know this, and my source is Tahir Butt (Air Chief).




That was ROFL funny.. Good one


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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> AESA , *but scans only in the vertical*..



What does it mean? No 360 degree Scan? Or AESA in vertical and PESA in horizontal? if thats the case than how is it possible? Is there any AWAC out there which uses AESA and PESA in such layout?


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## Bratva

Last Hope said:


> PAF Base Kamra was a costly failure of Intelligence and lack of trained security. The perimeter boundary was manned by civilian security guards.
> 
> All the AWACS and AEW&C of PAF were present at PAF Base Minhas NOT Chaklala. And 3 of four IL-78 were present too. One of the Saab-2000 hot a direct hit from RPG which exploded. The flames latter on reached the IL-78s which were filled with a kind of jet fuel that doesn't give smoky flame. All the three IL-78s exploded which resulted in damage to ALL AWACS and AEW&C aircrafts. The JF-17 production line was also totaled, hence the Block-2 is now delayed for 15 months.
> 
> 
> Ofcourse ISPR and PAF doesn't want you to know this, and my source is Tahir Butt (Air Chief).



Typical bureaucratic response,,, Your attitude resembles with them alot. Higher ups do it when they don't won't to respond to "Strong" rumors with an amicable or pictorial response


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## Liquidmetal

Last Hope said:


> PAF Base Kamra was a costly failure of Intelligence and lack of trained security. The perimeter boundary was manned by civilian security guards.
> 
> All the AWACS and AEW&C of PAF were present at PAF Base Minhas NOT Chaklala. And 3 of four IL-78 were present too. One of the Saab-2000 hot a direct hit from RPG which exploded. The flames latter on reached the IL-78s which were filled with a kind of jet fuel that doesn't give smoky flame. All the three IL-78s exploded which resulted in damage to ALL AWACS and AEW&C aircrafts. The JF-17 production line was also totaled, hence the Block-2 is now delayed for 15 months.
> 
> 
> Ofcourse ISPR and PAF doesn't want you to know this, and my source is Tahir Butt (Air Chief).




Sorry, I am not trying to be offensive, just asking a simple question. What is the status of all our AWACs?

There are a lot rumours that 1 maybe 2 awacs were destroyed. I hope not but if it is true then the failure of our professionals in planning and preventing such an attack has been monumnetal, particularly after Mehran and the fact this base had been attacked many times before.

Your facetious reply not withstanding, it is our right to know what happened to our property on that day.

If you know or having some knowledge and if you wish to share said information then thank you, if not then simply remaining quiet would have sufficed.

Peace.


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## Jango

Liquidmetal said:


> However, we the people have a right to know what is happening to our assets that we had paid for.



Actually, no, you don't have the right to know these things. Do you ever get to know why a heli crashed? Do you ever get to know about the fuel sheets of airplanes and how much fuel was lost due XYZ reason? Do you get to know that the base commander did a FOD drill, employing the whole of the base, just for the sake of it, although alot of resources were wasted for it as well!! 

In short, there is not everything that you or I reserve the giht to know.


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## Last Hope

Liquidmetal said:


> Sorry, I am not trying to be offensive, just asking a simple question. What is the status of all our AWACs?


Why must this be made public?


> There are a lot rumours that 1 maybe 2 awacs were destroyed. I hope not but if it is true then the failure of our professionals in planning and preventing such an attack has been monumnetal, particularly after Mehran and the fact this base had been attacked many times before.


I answered your question in my post. The AWACS are _generally_ based at Chaklala and other bases not at Minhas. Why would we station all of our AWACS and AEW&Cs at one base? This is was first time that PAF Base Minhas has had this many Saab-2000s on board.


> Your facetious reply not withstanding, it is our right to know what happened to our property on that day


You pay for the security of civilian and civilian property from enemies across the border. You are getting it. How we do it is our concern. We have all the right to keep it confidential and hidden from public. 


> If you know or having some knowledge and if you wish to share said information then thank you, if not then simply remaining quiet would have sufficed.


The information you're looking for has been repeated several times on the PAF Base Kamra attack thread, and this thread is not to discuss the attack and damage. Flip through pages, and you'll find what you need. One Saab-2000 was damaged, given repairs at the PAC and flown off to Sweden for further repairs and tests. This part is confirmed. The rumor of one Saab-2000 being totally destroyed and other slightly damaged is just a rumor which is neither rejected nor confirmed by ISPR.


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## Liquidmetal

Last Hope said:


> Why must this be made public?
> 
> I answered your question in my post. The AWACS are _generally_ based at Chaklala and other bases not at Minhas. Why would we station all of our AWACS and AEW&Cs at one base? This is was first time that PAF Base Minhas has had this many Saab-2000s on board.
> 
> You pay for the security of civilian and civilian property from enemies across the border. You are getting it. How we do it is our concern. We have all the right to keep it confidential and hidden from public.
> 
> The information you're looking for has been repeated several times on the PAF Base Kamra attack thread, and this thread is not to discuss the attack and damage. Flip through pages, and you'll find what you need. One Saab-2000 was damaged, given repairs at the PAC and flown off to Sweden for further repairs and tests. This part is confirmed. The rumor of one Saab-2000 being totally destroyed and other slightly damaged is just a rumor which is neither rejected nor confirmed by ISPR.




Once gain I reiterate that my questions on this matter are not to offend or to find confidential information. 

I have no contacts in the airforce or any other knowledge of the attack on Minhas. I am merely a patriot of my country and a supporter of all our people who sacrifice for our country. I am a hater of all corrupt. lazy good for nothing leaches that live in our country. I count the fauj as the people who have made immense sacrifices for us and I salute them. As a whole we have come to level of eating grass for our weapons and security and for that I say all our leaders, from Zardari to the civil servant sitting in a God forsaken Tehsil is accountable to us the people.

I understand there is national security but in this case a lapse in our perimeters and guardian of one of our most sensitive bases is tantamount to treason and hiding the loss of a $250 million asset is not national security but a national disgrace. 

OK I take at face value what you have written and I am tahnkful for your time and effort in reply to my question. I accept that you may be a person with many contacts and much more knowledge than I have hence I accept all our AWACs are safe albeit with minor battle scars. 

However, my final question is that if as I have accepted all our AWACs are safe and 'alive' then why has ISPR gone AWOL on this subject. If ISPR comes cleans the rumours will stop otherwise until there is pictorial evidence these rumours will presist. 

As for me, you are very much right, I will refrain from this topic here anymore. End of discussion barring any reply you may wish to give in response to this post.

Once again peace.


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## Fieldmarshal

*A saab damage assessment and evaluation team has been in kamra for some days now and has already ordered parts for the repair of the damaged saab awacs.*

more news later

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## Abu Zolfiqar

for that one or two aircraft beyond repair, can the Erieye radar and computer equipment and systems inside be salvaged?


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## khanasifm

according to airforces monthly Saab sqdn was # 13.


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## fatman17

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> for that one or two aircraft beyond repair, can the Erieye radar and computer equipment and systems inside be salvaged?



what beyond repair.

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## gambit

> Oscar said:
> 
> 
> 
> AESA , but scans only in the vertical..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mafiya said:
> 
> 
> 
> *What does it mean?* No 360 degree Scan? Or AESA in vertical and PESA in horizontal? if thats the case than how is it possible? Is there any AWAC out there which uses AESA and PESA in such layout?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

He means that for an AWACS, the beam is shaped thus...







A radar's beam shape is 90 deg from its antenna's shape. So if you go to the extreme as illustrated above, you will have a 'fan' shaped beam, then all you have to do orient the antenna to suit how you want to scan.

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## fatman17

Fieldmarshal said:


> *A saab damage assessment and evaluation team has been in kamra for some days now and has already ordered parts for the repair of the damaged saab awacs.*
> 
> more news later



if they were complete write-off's as some are claiming, then the saab damage assessment team is not required. a write-off is a write-off and PAF has enough knowledge to 'salvage' parts which are re-useable.

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## Nishan_101

Nice one!!!!!


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## Fieldmarshal

fatman17 said:


> if they were complete write-off's as some are claiming, then the saab damage assessment team is not required. a write-off is a write-off and PAF has enough knowledge to 'salvage' parts which are re-useable.


 who ever said that is talking through his a$$ (with due respect). 
the sqd will be "almost" back to its full strength shortly : )

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## Imran Khan

Fieldmarshal said:


> who ever said that is talking through his a$$ (with due respect).
> the sqd will be "almost" back to its full strength shortly : )



some kids want to pose as insiders and have more info

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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> who ever said that is talking through his a$$ (with due respect).
> the sqd will be "almost" back to its full strength shortly : )



Quoting from your own post:



> our over the horizon capability (saab) has been damaged severally and almost to the point of extinction.
> i will let every one on one secret that our awacs (saab) sqd will never ever be at full strength again and it would only be a miracle if we can bring the sqd. back to two third or even half of the original strength.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/202635-attack-paf-base-minhas-191.html#ixzz27q5gmZyZ

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## Mani2020

nuclearpak said:


> Quoting from your own post:



dont worry some people are best at hypocrisy and he seems to be one of them

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## amardeep mishra

fatman17 said:


> *Erieye Radar in layman's language*
> 
> 
> The Erieye radar system is an Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) system developed by Saab Microwave Systems of Sweden. It is based on an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA).
> 
> The radar is an active, phased-array, medium to high PRF pulse Doppler sensor that can feed to on-board operator architecture or downlink data.
> 
> Its antenna is fixed and the beam is electronically scanned, which provides superior detection and significantly enhanced tracking performance compared with older style radar-dome antennas.
> 
> The radar provides a broadside sector of 150º on each side and has an instrumental range of 280 miles (450km). It works from low level up to more than 82,000ft (25,000m) and has an effective surveillance area of 193,000 sq. miles (500,000km2). The system can track 500 sea and 1,000 air targets simultaneously, identified either manually or automatically.
> 
> For example, the radar can detect/track air targets, sea targets and hovering helicopters simultaneously in a split second. This is applied in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment, in heavy radar clutter and at low target altitudes. It detects small air targets, hovering helicopters, cruise missiles and small sea targets such as jet skis etc. It works in E/F band (3GHz) incorporating *192 two-way transmit/receive modules.
> *
> The Erieye system has full interoperability with NATO air defense command and control systems and other LINK 16 equipped assets.



well,the above highlighted statement suggests a dual channel TRMM architecture of SAAB,
but just to tell you my dear friend,LRDE has "patented" the technology of 8-channel TRMM which renders very high density to DRDO's AWACS.

hope you will like this link-
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1279046.html


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## Fieldmarshal

nuclearpak said:


> Quoting from your own post:



before jumping the gun u should have read my post more carefully.
i said that "sqd will be almost back to its full strength". the import bit being "almost", now if ur an intelligent person i am sure u can make out what i am trying to say.
their are no contradictions in my post.


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## Liquidmetal

Fieldmarshal said:


> before jumping the gun u should have read my post more carefully.
> i said that "sqd will be almost back to its full strength". the import bit being "almost", now if ur an intelligent person i am sure u can make out what i am trying to say.
> their are no contradictions in my post.



Sorry I must be below average intelligence. Almost can mean anything:

1) We have lost 1 bird but we will keep going until we get replacements or make do with what we have.
2) We have not lost a bird but is damaged and will be almost back to full strength.

So which is it and if you can say almost then why not come out with straight!


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## Last Hope

desigujju said:


> dont worry some people are best at hypocrisy and he seems to be one of them


You have just joined the forum, hardly 5 posts are in your account. You have no right to target any member, especially who has been on the forum for a far longer period. 

Learn to respect others and their views, even if they may have flaws or not match your opinion. Be professional and mature and then talk over it.

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## Arsalan

Fieldmarshal said:


> before jumping the gun u should have read my post more carefully.
> i said that "sqd will be almost back to its full strength". the import bit being "almost", now if ur an intelligent person i am sure u can make out what i am trying to say.
> their are no contradictions in my post.



Brother, your post that nuclearpk have quoted say that we will never be able to bring the SAAB Squadron to full strength and it will be a miracle if are able to bring it to even two third or half of its strength. Then you say it will be almost back to full strength.
Almost back to full strength in no way mean two third or half of original strength or does it?

Sorry to say this but the posts are quite childish..

Nuclearpk have done a good job by keeping his eye open, showing goof presence of mind to show how authentic you INSIDE reports really are.

Many senior members who sources have proved right time and time again were saying that there was no substantial loss in Kamra Attacks but you insisted the other way. Such contradictory posts show your credibility. 
A squadron will almost be broght back to its full strength that will be half of original strength? 

They say kay Zada bolnay wala hmasha Nuksan uthata ha, so it is wise to talk about matter one is sure about!
you are new here, just trying to teach you PDF ways, no offense!
Hope you take it positively

best regards!
Arsalan

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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> before jumping the gun u should have read my post more carefully.
> i said that "sqd will be almost back to its full strength". the import bit being "almost", now if ur an intelligent person i am sure u can make out what i am trying to say.
> their are no contradictions in my post.



It isn't a glass of water that it is _almost_ full. Or a training process that it is _almost _complete.

The plane is either there or it is not. 

After the attack, my opinion was that it is not there. And at this moment, I still think like that. Albeit I am not privy to to what happened afterwards. But I wouldn't be surprised if a damage assessment went wrong somewhere within PAF.

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## araz

Arsalan said:


> Brother, your post that nuclearpk have quoted say that we will never be able to bring the SAAB Squadron to full strength and it will be a miracle if are able to bring it to even two third or half of its strength. Then you say it will be almost back to full strength.
> Almost back to full strength in no way mean two third or half of original strength or does it?
> 
> Sorry to say this but the posts are quite childish..
> 
> Nuclearpk have done a good job by keeping his eye open, showing goof presence of mind to show how authentic you INSIDE reports really are.
> 
> Many senior members who sources have proved right time and time again were saying that there was no substantial loss in Kamra Attacks but you insisted the other way. Such contradictory posts show your credibility.
> A squadron will almost be broght back to its full strength that will be half of original strength?
> 
> They say kay Zada bolnay wala hmasha Nuksan uthata ha, so it is wise to talk about matter one is sure about!
> you are new here, just trying to teach you PDF ways, no offense!
> Hope you take it positively
> 
> best regards!
> Arsalan



OK GUys Lets settle down.
We said things based on info that we got. It may have been wrong or our posts leflected the haste and anxiety associated with what was a shocking event for all of us. The fact which has been established is that one plane's nose cne suffered some damage which is being looked at and repaired. WE ARE ALL GREATFUL TO ALLAH that the damage was not more severe. Let us move on from here instead of this you said this and I said that debate.
Araz

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## Rajput_Pakistani

Aslaam-o-Alaikum All,

Can anyone plz tell, at which stage our SAAB AWACS integration is? I mean training of crew, link-up with our overall command & control system.

Regards.


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## Jango

What material is the nose cone made from? Carbon fibre honeycomb type?


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## Bratva

araz said:


> OK GUys Lets settle down.
> We said things based on info that we got. It may have been wrong or our posts leflected the haste and anxiety associated with what was a shocking event for all of us. The fact which has been established is that one plane's nose cne suffered some damage which is being looked at and repaired. WE ARE ALL GREATFUL TO ALLAH that the damage was not more severe. *Let us move on from here instead of this you said this and I said that debate.*
> Araz



Mr.Araz, what preventing skeptics from moving on is PAF/ISPR silence on whole issue. They have not denied the rumors!.

Several facts which are agreed upon by everyone. 3 AWACS were present on the same base on the day of attack. One was airborne. Other 2 resting in the same hangar. One suffered a damage, what about the 3rd awacs which was present in the Hangar? That mystery Awacs is generating a hell lot of rumors.

4th aircraft is for training purposes was at chaklala on that day. 5th Awacs is a myth which was blown away on the day of attack. Can any one tell me who believed we have 3 Awac plus 1 training aircraft? We all believed that PAF got 4 AWAC plus 1 training aircraft after renegotiation the deal but still in media the deal is quoted a Billion dollar deal and on that faithful day we came to know the original deal was of 3+1 and not a word come out what was the price after renegotiating, so here we see a gap which can be exploited by rumor mill what happened to rest of money if deal was not a 1 billion dollar and no official figure on the price comes afterward,see how much misinformation PAF/ISPR has spread around? 

To top it all, PAF spokesperson changed his statement 3 times in 2 days time. Everyone emphasizing on the 2nd Awac which can be repaired,,, but not about the 3rd Awacs which is why we skeptics are still believing there is cover up job of some kind happened!


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## mylovepakistan

let me quote najam khan's words...



> As expected our "loyal" Pakistani media and papers are counting two losses of Saab-2000 in the attack on Minhas AB, Kamra (night of August 15).
> 
> Who they are fooling? This photo released by APP on August 17 shows an unhurt Saab-2000 in background.
> 
> 2 out of the 4 Saab AEW&C aircraft were stationed in the base at the time of attack. Plus, there is "NO" news on internet or SAAB/PAF press release confirming the delivery of last 4th aircraft to PAF.
> 
> Its up to you, either believe the words of the "so-called Pro-Pakistani and loyal media" or go with the PAF official press release claiming one aircraft damaged.

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## araz

mafiya said:


> Mr.Araz, what preventing skeptics from moving on is PAF/ISPR silence on whole issue. They have not denied the rumors!.
> 
> Several facts which are agreed upon by everyone. 3 AWACS were present on the same base on the day of attack. One was airborne. Other 2 resting in the same hangar. One suffered a damage, what about the 3rd awacs which was present in the Hangar? That mystery Awacs is generating a hell lot of rumors.
> 
> 4th aircraft is for training purposes was at chaklala on that day. 5th Awacs is a myth which was blown away on the day of attack. Can any one tell me who believed we have 3 Awac plus 1 training aircraft? We all believed that PAF got 4 AWAC plus 1 training aircraft after renegotiation the deal but still in media the deal is quoted a Billion dollar deal and on that faithful day we came to know the original deal was of 3+1 and not a word come out what was the price after renegotiating, so here we see a gap which can be exploited by rumor mill what happened to rest of money if deal was not a 1 billion dollar and no official figure on the price comes afterward,see how much misinformation PAF/ISPR has spread around?
> 
> To top it all, PAF spokesperson changed his statement 3 times in 2 days time. Everyone emphasizing on the 2nd Awac which can be repaired,,, but not about the 3rd Awacs which is why we skeptics are still believing there is cover up job of some kind happened!


Bhai.
I dont have the time to indulge in thisrumour mill. If you remember the mehran incident did anyone bother to notice the fire when the plane burstinto flames. It was shown ad nauseum by the media. compare that with the lack of fire at kamra. Now I dont know how logical you guys are but are you guyssuggesting that one plane vot destroyed in a closed hanger where there were three planes and was destroyed totally yet the only thing damaged on the other plane was a nose cone.
I dont find that at all logical. This is why I am inclined to believe the government version.
Araz

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## fatman17

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Aslaam-o-Alaikum All,
> 
> Can anyone plz tell, at which stage our SAAB AWACS integration is? I mean training of crew, link-up with our overall command & control system.
> 
> Regards.



work is under-construction


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## Fieldmarshal

mafiya said:


> Mr.Araz, what preventing skeptics from moving on is PAF/ISPR silence on whole issue. They have not denied the rumors!.
> 
> Several facts which are agreed upon by everyone. 3 AWACS were present on the same base on the day of attack. One was airborne. Other 2 resting in the same hangar. One suffered a damage, what about the 3rd awacs which was present in the Hangar? That mystery Awacs is generating a hell lot of rumors.
> 
> 4th aircraft is for training purposes was at chaklala on that day. 5th Awacs is a myth which was blown away on the day of attack. Can any one tell me who believed we have 3 Awac plus 1 training aircraft? We all believed that PAF got 4 AWAC plus 1 training aircraft after renegotiation the deal but still in media the deal is quoted a Billion dollar deal and on that faithful day we came to know the original deal was of 3+1 and not a word come out what was the price after renegotiating, so here we see a gap which can be exploited by rumor mill what happened to rest of money if deal was not a 1 billion dollar and no official figure on the price comes afterward,see how much misinformation PAF/ISPR has spread around?
> 
> To top it all, PAF spokesperson changed his statement 3 times in 2 days time. Everyone emphasizing on the 2nd Awac which can be repaired,,, but not about the 3rd Awacs which is why we skeptics are still believing there is cover up job of some kind happened!





u are wrong on all accounts !!

below are some of the details of the attack on kamra, separating facts from fiction and the bs that has been spread on this forum. still i have not included all the details specially about the severity of damage sustained (still the intelligent members can make out the actual position on the ground regarding the true nature of the damage). regardless all of details below are a fact :

-their are/were four awacs (saab) and one training ac. that brings the no. of saab 2000 to 5 in PAF inventory.
-as i said in one of my earlier posts, on the day of the attack their were three ac parked in one hanger and one ac parked in a separate hanger. 
-now it is the bigger hanger with three saab ac parked inside that got hit.
-no saab ac was air born at the time of the attack, as the terrorists waited for the last ac to complete its training sortie and land and get parked in the hanger, before launching the attack. that is the reason why the hanger door was 1/3rd open and a refuel bowser was parked outside the hanger. which incidently was the first thing that was hit and blown up. once again we did suffer damage.
-the one awacs in the other hanger never got touched as the terrorists never made it that far.
-the terrorists also knew and targeted the air crews debriefing room and destroyed it to a large extent the only reason why the air crew survived was for the fact that after a long sortie they were hungry and were having snacks in the tea bar. they could hear the terrorists.
-the no of the terrorists was/is alot more than what has been reported.
-preliminary investigation (as i had reported earlier in one of my post) has found that the terrorists handler/ring leader was from around these parts and some months ago had rented a home in the village, in ramzan the local masjid was full of people sitting for atiquaf and the ring leader informed the imam masjid that a few of his relatives who are from tabligi jamaat would like to spend the atiquaf in the village mosque. and that is how they never got picked up in the sweeps that were conducted by PAF security personal, specially after the got a warning alert of an impending attack.
-it was c-130 fitted with flair that was ordered to get airborne from chaklala (and remained airborne till the completion of the whole operation) played the most pivotal role in locating the terrorists. it basically directed the whole operation.
-by the time the news of the attack got aired on the electronic media, the operation was already over with killing/capturing of all the terrorists inside and out side the base.
-the role of dsg is over played and infact it was due to their failure that this attack was able to penetrate the defenses.


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## Najam Khan

mafiya said:


> Mr.Araz, what preventing skeptics from moving on is PAF/ISPR silence on whole issue. They have not denied the rumors!.
> 
> Several facts which are agreed upon by everyone. 3 AWACS were present on the same base on the day of attack. One was airborne. Other 2 resting in the same hangar. One suffered a damage, what about the 3rd awacs which was present in the Hangar? That mystery Awacs is generating a hell lot of rumors.
> 
> 4th aircraft is for training purposes was at chaklala on that day. 5th Awacs is a myth which was blown away on the day of attack. Can any one tell me who believed we have 3 Awac plus 1 training aircraft? We all believed that PAF got 4 AWAC plus 1 training aircraft after renegotiation the deal but still in media the deal is quoted a Billion dollar deal and on that faithful day we came to know the original deal was of 3+1 and not a word come out what was the price after renegotiating, so here we see a gap which can be exploited by rumor mill what happened to rest of money if deal was not a 1 billion dollar and no official figure on the price comes afterward,see how much misinformation PAF/ISPR has spread around?
> 
> To top it all, PAF spokesperson changed his statement 3 times in 2 days time. Everyone emphasizing on the 2nd Awac which can be repaired,,, but not about the 3rd Awacs which is why we skeptics are still believing there is cover up job of some kind happened!



Lets think objectively.

If PAF is lying, what objectives will it meet? Keeping people cool on National loss and keeping its enemies guessing about its operational strength...or *they are just covering up this arses*?

The *bold part* can be covered up only till a small period of time, this bluffing game is not so easy. The next Govt in Pakistan will enforce its own "military accountability" policy, not to mention any aviation author's upcoming book on PAF. Lets wait and believe on ISPR/PAF release for some time and IF their is anything, it will eventually come out.

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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> -their are/were four awacs (saab) and one training ac. that brings the no. of saab 2000 to 5 in PAF inventory.



Could you kindly give us a serial number of the 5th Saab if you dont mind? (not that i dont believe you, but I haven't seen anything anywhere. The defence secretary on the induction of first Saab said that 3 more will arrive, and the counted ones are J019, 10045, 10040 and 10025. The one with civilian registration SE49 during it's trials has not yet been seen with PAF colors anywhere, but i'll take your word for it)

-


> a refuel bowser was parked outside the hanger. which incidently was the first thing that was hit and blown up. once again we did suffer damage.



There is a blog entry on the net, a retired brigadier who is very much active on the net said that something caught fire (and an officer was also there trying to extinguish it).



> -the terrorists also knew and targeted the air crews debriefing room and destroyed it to a large extent



There is a picture of a terrorist with false ceiling lying around.



> -it was c-130 fitted with flair that was ordered to get airborne from chaklala (and remained airborne till the completion of the whole operation) played the most pivotal role in locating the terrorists. it basically directed the whole operation.



Yup. It could be seen on TV even, a C-130 was flying overhead.



> -the role of dsg is over played and infact it was due to their failure that this attack was able to penetrate the defenses.



Agreed. What I gather is that after Sep Asif killed a couple of intruding terrorists, and then was killed himself, the other DSG ran away from his post. And the reaction was also a bit late and first party arrived after 10 minutes or so.


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## TAC

Time to copy / paste this post from a couple of pages ago...........

For those who continue to try to convince us that 1 SAAB was destroyed and 2 SAABS were damaged (interestingly in earlier posts these same people had made iron clad claims that 2 were destroyed and one damaged?!?) - a few questions.....
1. The PAF spokesman repeatedly said only one aircraft sustained damage - was he lieing?
2. The PAF ACM on his visit to Minhas - specificaly said that the enemy aims were reduced to ashes due to the timely and effective response from base defence -- does that sound like the statement of a ACM who just had 1-2 of his prize assets wiped out? was he lieing?
3. The defence minister stated that he had been breifed by PAF senior officers that only one Saab sustained damage to its nose cone. The damage had been assessed and deemed repairable in country although the aircraft would still be sent to the manufacturer for checking to be on the safe side -- did he make all this up? was he lieing?
4. Retired VCAS and former base comander at Minhas Shahid Lateef obviously has contacts throughout PAF and you can be sure he knows far more details of what happened and when compared with anyone on this board or the media. Also note that he is not on any Govt / PAF / ISPR payroll and when PAF deserves it he is very critical of the PAF and Govt - watch his interviews after the Osama raid and you will know what I mean. In various interviews he specificaly stated that there was only one aircraft in the hanger that was attacked - it sustained minor damage and he praised the timely / effective response by the base defenders -- is this reputable, straight talking, undoubtedly knowledgeable, with no axe to grind, retired high ranking officer also lieing?

To counter all the above and more - you have a couple of low end urdu press reports stating that 1-2 Saabs were destroyed - with no named sources. Regardless - detractors of PAF and Pakistan will continue to believe and spend much energy trying to convince others that despite the very obvious odds -- it is actualy the odd urdu press report that is truthfull and not all of the above - that is to be expected.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-194.html#ixzz2897c5kCj


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## Jango

Let's think rationally here. A Saab team is going to come all the way form Sweden for a nose cone (as said by some)? Or is the Saab going to go to Sweden for a nose cone replacement (as being suggested by some others)? I don't think the nose cone would be that much costly as the fuel costs, landing charges, service charges, crew accommodation etc etc.

Is it that much difficult for the PAF to order a replacement nose cone from Saab (considering it didn't already have one beforehand which I doubt, they always have spares), and screw it onto place?

Who said this nose cone thing at the first place? The defence minister at an Iftar party by Iranian consulate!



> The PAF spokesman repeatedly said only one aircraft sustained damage - was he lieing?


 *TAC*

These folks usually lie. You shouldn't be surprised!!


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## DV RULES

Looks like only one insider making solid comment and rest of all sources in media, opinions, analysis, reports and even ACM are bluffing.

How cool it is!


----------



## Fieldmarshal

nuclearpak said:


> Could you kindly give us a serial number of the 5th Saab if you dont mind? (not that i dont believe you, but I haven't seen anything anywhere. The defence secretary on the induction of first Saab said that 3 more will arrive, and the counted ones are J019, 10045, 10040 and 10025. The one with civilian registration SE49 during it's trials has not yet been seen with PAF colors anywhere, but i'll take your word for it)



just because u haven't seen it certainly does not change the facts. any ways go to the link below and go to post no.83 and u cant miss it.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...aew-c-zdk-03-karakoram-eagle-delivered-6.html

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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> just because u haven't seen it certainly does not change the facts.



Neither did i suggest that it does.

Anyway, thanks. A quick search of airframe numbers on some websites reveals that it has been delivered. So that is 5 Saab 2000 with PAF.


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## Fieldmarshal

nuclearpak said:


> Neither did i suggest that it does.
> 
> Anyway, thanks. A quick search of airframe numbers on some websites reveals that it has been delivered. So that is 5 Saab 2000 with PAF.



well the trainer dosent really count unless the govt. has decided to convert PAF into an airline.


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## Last Hope

Fieldmarshal said:


> well the trainer dosent really count unless the govt. has decided to convert PAF into an airline.



Trainer? You mean non-AWE&C aircraft without the EW suites and radars. That's called transport version and it would be used for transportation of VIP officers of currently the three services, but latter only PAF and Army, as Navy will get it's own VIP transportation fleet.


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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> well the trainer dosent really count unless the govt. has decided to convert PAF into an airline.



It is a trainer operated by PAF with military registration flown and maintained by the airforce with a PAF rounded. It qualifies IMO. Although yeah, it is 4 AWACS.



Last Hope said:


> Trainer? You mean non-AWE&C aircraft without the EW suites and radars. That's called transport version and it would be used for transportation of VIP officers of currently the three services, but latter only PAF and Army, as Navy will get it's own VIP transportation fleet.



Trainer as in familiarizing the flight crew I believe.


----------



## TAC

nuclearpak said:


> Let's think rationally here. A Saab team is going to come all the way form Sweden for a nose cone (as said by some)? Or is the Saab going to go to Sweden for a nose cone replacement (as being suggested by some others)? I don't think the nose cone would be that much costly as the fuel costs, landing charges, service charges, crew accommodation etc etc.
> 
> Is it that much difficult for the PAF to order a replacement nose cone from Saab (considering it didn't already have one beforehand which I doubt, they always have spares), and screw it onto place?
> 
> Who said this nose cone thing at the first place? The defence minister at an Iftar party by Iranian consulate!
> 
> *TAC*
> 
> These folks usually lie. You shouldn't be surprised!!



The only official comment ref SAAB was from the defence minister saying that they would be asked to check the repair. All the rest like SAAB team at Kamra etc etc is based on anonymous posters on forums like this without even a single media source as backup -- not worth repeating or commenting on.

With regard to your view that the PAF spokesman was lieing -- I also asked if the PAF ACM, defence minister and independant, knowledgables like Shahid Lateef were also lieing / part of the conspiracy. The fact is that there is zero proof to back anything other than the official version. ie damage to nose cone of one aircraft which will be repaired. I am sure that Indian members will be disappointed with this and continue to hope for more to it.

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## Fieldmarshal

Last Hope said:


> Trainer? You mean non-AWE&C aircraft without the EW suites and radars. That's called transport version and it would be used for transportation of VIP officers of currently the three services, but latter only PAF and Army, as Navy will get it's own VIP transportation fleet.



it is not a transport aircraft. its primary role is as a training ac for the flight crews to learn and to familiarize them with the operation envelop and the characteristics of the saab 2000, before they are transferred to the awacs.
transport if at best a secondary role.

All three services have their own VIP sqd. (and have had it as long as i can remember) and very rarely if ever share them.
-PA VIP sqd. is based out of Qasim aviation base pindi (formerly known as dhamyal air base) and has both fixed and rotary elements in it. the fixed wing ac include both both prop and jet engine ac.
-PAF VIP sqd. is based at chaklala afb in pindi. it too has both fixed and and some rotary elements in it (just for the PAF high officals). is the biggest and the most wide ranging of all the vip sqd. on account of the fact that it also services the president and the P.M. the fixed wing elements of the sqd. range from wide body ac like the A-310 to business jets like gulf stream g4.
-for rotary the president and the P.M use the prime ministers sqd. based out of islamabad (near the sports complex). it is manned by PAA personal.
-Naval Vip sqd. is based out of mahran airbase khi. it has both fixed and some rotary elements. it also serves as naval transport.


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## Mani2020

Last Hope said:


> You have just joined the forum, hardly 5 posts are in your account. You have no right to target any member, especially who has been on the forum for a far longer period.
> 
> Learn to respect others and their views, even if they may have flaws or not match your opinion. Be professional and mature and then talk over it.



lol the post was mine but the username was not mine, how you did it man?????????? amazed !!! some viral function, hacking or what????????


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## Last Hope

Mani2020 said:


> lol the post was mine but the username was not mine, how you did it man?????????? amazed !!! some viral function, hacking or what????????



Seriously. Must be because of website hack, the profile was of a person showing join date of that day and 5 posts in his account..


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## Mani2020

Last Hope said:


> Seriously. Must be because of website hack, the profile was of a person showing join date of that day and 5 posts in his account..



seems like to be the case, next time i must be careful. and if some pathetic posts appear next time be sure its not me rather some secret hand behind the scenes 

on a serious note whenever i open defence.pk and scroll up or down something suddenly blinks on the screen, has that got to do with some malfunction with the website because i am not facing such thing opening or scrolling other sites

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## Dazzler

same happens when i scroll down, figuring out what might cause this? hmm


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## IHK_PK

*Foreign Military Sale: Pakistan 


E-2C Hawkeye 2000 Airborne Early Warning Suite for P-3s
*

Washington (SPX) Dec 12 - The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for refurbishment and modification of three excess P-3 aircraft with the E-2C HAWKEYE 2000 Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Suite, as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $855million.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale for refurbishment and modification of three excess P-3 aircraft with the E-2C HAWKEYE 2000 Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Suite, spare and repairs parts, simulators, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, system software development and installation, ground/flight testing of new systems and system modifications, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $855 million.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been and continues to be an important force for economic progress in South Asia and a partner in the global war on terrorism. The command-and-control capabilities of these aircraft will improve Pakistan's ability to restrict the littoral movement of terrorists along Pakistan's southern border and ensure Pakistan's overall ability to maintain integrity of its borders.

Pakistan intends to use the proposed equipment to develop an effective air defense network for its naval forces and provide an AEW surveillance and enhanced command, control, and communications capability. The addition of the AEW suites will provide Pakistan with search surveillance, and control capability in support of maritime interdiction operations. These aircraft will also increase Pakistan's ability to support the U.S. Operation Enduring Freedom operations, and provide anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare capabilities; and a control capability over land against transnational terrorists and narcotics smugglers. The modernization will enhance the capabilities of the Pakistani Navy and support its regional influence and meet its legitimate self-defense needs. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing the AEW platform into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not affect the basic military balance in the region.

The prime contractor will be Northrop Grumman Corporation, St. Augustine, Florida and Lockheed-Martin, Greenville, South Carolina. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.

Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any U.S. Government and contractor representatives to Pakistan.


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## Nishan_101

***_PK said:


> *Foreign Military Sale: Pakistan
> 
> 
> E-2C Hawkeye 2000 Airborne Early Warning Suite for P-3s
> *
> 
> Washington (SPX) Dec 12 - The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for refurbishment and modification of three excess P-3 aircraft with the E-2C HAWKEYE 2000 Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Suite, as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $855million.
> 
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale for refurbishment and modification of three excess P-3 aircraft with the E-2C HAWKEYE 2000 Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Suite, spare and repairs parts, simulators, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, system software development and installation, ground/flight testing of new systems and system modifications, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $855 million.
> 
> This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been and continues to be an important force for economic progress in South Asia and a partner in the global war on terrorism. The command-and-control capabilities of these aircraft will improve Pakistan's ability to restrict the littoral movement of terrorists along Pakistan's southern border and ensure Pakistan's overall ability to maintain integrity of its borders.
> 
> Pakistan intends to use the proposed equipment to develop an effective air defense network for its naval forces and provide an AEW surveillance and enhanced command, control, and communications capability. The addition of the AEW suites will provide Pakistan with search surveillance, and control capability in support of maritime interdiction operations. These aircraft will also increase Pakistan's ability to support the U.S. Operation Enduring Freedom operations, and provide anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare capabilities; and a control capability over land against transnational terrorists and narcotics smugglers. The modernization will enhance the capabilities of the Pakistani Navy and support its regional influence and meet its legitimate self-defense needs. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing the AEW platform into its armed forces.
> 
> The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not affect the basic military balance in the region.
> 
> The prime contractor will be Northrop Grumman Corporation, St. Augustine, Florida and Lockheed-Martin, Greenville, South Carolina. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.
> 
> Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any U.S. Government and contractor representatives to Pakistan.



Although getting free of cost P-3Cs from US means that they will be used mainly for US desired roles and Also heard that PN has ordered about 2 *EX-Airliner* with MPA equipment to be fitted in it. It was far better for the PN to have looked towards the Saab-2000 to equipped the Navy for about 7-11 Saab-2000 MPAs and 2-3 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs and PAF would have 5 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs and 1-3 Saab-2000 Transport. We can buy from airliners on cheaper bases as they wanted to replace it.

Even GoP operates some: Saab 2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
PAF: Saab 2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So getting a good numbers means we will be able to gain over haul facility at PAC Kamra. And even can utilize it for transport.


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## Jango

I don't get it, why go for P-3 AWACS? P-3 probably means for the PN, why does PN need AWACS?

ZDK and Saab are already enough.

BTW, could you post the link for your post.


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## Bossman

Nishan_101 said:


> Although getting free of cost P-3Cs from US means that they will be used mainly for US desired roles and Also heard that PN has ordered about 2 *EX-Airliner* with MPA equipment to be fitted in it. It was far better for the PN to have looked towards the Saab-2000 to equipped the Navy for about 7-11 Saab-2000 MPAs and 2-3 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs and PAF would have 5 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs and 1-3 Saab-2000 Transport. We can buy from airliners on cheaper bases as they wanted to replace it.
> 
> Even GoP operates some: Saab 2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> PAF: Saab 2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> So getting a good numbers means we will be able to gain over haul facility at PAC Kamra. And even can utilize it for transport.



The reason PN is looking into ATRs as a replacement for Fokkers MPAs is that their maintenance and overhaul facilities already exist with PIA. This was a condition in the original PN tender which limited the options to ATR 42 and CN 235s. Good choice in my opinion. Saab 2000 is to small for this role. MPAs cannot be used as transports. Pakistan has a three tiered martime surveillance structure. P3Cs at the top end, Fokkers/ATRs in the middle and Norman Islanders at the lower. P3Cs are very expensive to operate on a 24/7 basis especially in peace time.


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## Nishan_101

Bossman said:


> The reason PN is looking into ATRs as a replacement for Fokkers MPAs is that their maintenance and overhaul facilities already exist with PIA. This was a condition in the original PN tender which limited the options to ATR 42 and CN 235s. Good choice in my opinion. Saab 2000 is to small for this role. MPAs cannot be used as transports. Pakistan has a three tiered martime surveillance structure. P3Cs at the top end, Fokkers/ATRs in the middle and Norman Islanders at the lower. P3Cs are very expensive to operate on a 24/7 basis especially in peace time.



Sir I mean to say that:
*7 SAAB 2000 AEW&Cs for PAF
7 SAAB 2000 Transport for PAF/Pak Military*

*2-3 Saab 340 for MSA/Coast Guards
2-3 SAAB 2000 AEW&Cs for PN
11 SAAB 2000 MPA for PN*


*2-3 Saab 340 for Pak Army*

*7-11 for PIA* if we were able to convince it in 2003-04 and confirm the deal with Saab and its operators.


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## Mootaz-khelifi

me i like Boeing E-3 Sentry it's cool and effective


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## Dazzler

Mootaz-khelifi said:


> me i like Boeing E-3 Sentry it's cool and effective



comes with a web of political strings, damn expensive to operate and maintain.


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## Jango

Nishan_101 said:


> Sir I mean to say that:
> *7 SAAB 2000 AEW&Cs for PAF
> 7 SAAB 2000 Transport for PAF/Pak Military*
> 
> *2-3 Saab 340 for MSA/Coast Guards
> 2-3 SAAB 2000 AEW&Cs for PN
> 11 SAAB 2000 MPA for PN*
> 
> 
> *2-3 Saab 340 for Pak Army*
> 
> *7-11 for PIA* if we were able to convince it in 2003-04 and confirm the deal with Saab and its operators.



Sometimes I really think that you should get a ban whenever you post something like this!!!

For the nth time, we beg you to understand the situation, and get the basic fact in your head that an aircraft requires money, and we don't have enough money!!!

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## Bratva

nuclearpak said:


> I don't get it, why go for P-3 AWACS? P-3 probably means for the PN, why does PN need AWACS?
> 
> ZDK and Saab are already enough.
> 
> BTW, could you post the link for your post.



It's 2009-10 news. Deal died down due to non availability of funds. Deal was worth of 800-900 Million dollars at that time.


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## Bossman

nuclearpak said:


> Sometimes I really think that you should get a ban whenever you post something like this!!!
> 
> For the nth time, we beg you to understand the situation, and get the basic fact in your head that an aircraft requires money, and we don't have enough money!!!



Its not only about money, but utility. It doesn't make sense to have more stuff than you need to address your threat perception. Nishan 101 is either a kid or a person with very low IQ. He just doesn't get it.


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## Nishan_101

nuclearpak said:


> Sometimes I really think that you should get a ban whenever you post something like this!!!
> 
> For the nth time, we beg you to understand the situation, and get the basic fact in your head that an aircraft requires money, and we don't have enough money!!!



I think you people forget that we had money some 5 years ago which we can utilized to place an order that would have benefited us in every way. Currently the only possible good choice plane is Y-9MPA or ATR-72s???
Sorry for suggesting things that were possible in 2003-04


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## aziqbal

Can someone tell me where ZDK-03 AWACS are based? which base?

Erieye is at Kamra where are they Chinese AWACSs? Its south of the country for navy>?


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## Jango

aziqbal said:


> Can someone tell me where ZDK-03 AWACS are based? which base?
> 
> Erieye is at Kamra where are they Chinese AWACSs? Its south of the country for navy>?



Google earth shows a ZDK-03 at PAF Masroor. ZDK have also been seen flying over Karachi regularly and also for approach and after take off.

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## fatman17

aziqbal said:


> Can someone tell me where ZDK-03 AWACS are based? which base?
> 
> Erieye is at Kamra where are they Chinese AWACSs? Its south of the country for navy>?



no. 4 sqn - PAF base Masroor

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## Dazzler

The reason for stationing and testing ZDK-03 near coast is that the radar has additional modes for various sea states and few other undisclosed modes.

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## SQ8

nabil_05 said:


> The reason for stationing and testing ZDK-03 near coast is that the radar has additional modes for various sea states and few other undisclosed modes.



One wonders if the OEM country for the Block-52's has authorized them to do their workups with the ZDK..
after all, Jacobabad comes under PAF South.

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## Jango

Oscar said:


> One wonders if the OEM country for the Block-52's has authorized them to do their workups with the ZDK..
> after all, Jacobabad comes under PAF South.



But isn't the ZDK more sea oriented (yeah, not the best term)!? As nabil said and i understood?


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## Najam Khan

Oscar said:


> One wonders if the OEM country for the Block-52's has authorized them to do their workups with the ZDK..
> after all, Jacobabad comes under PAF South.


I think we all know the answer. Bk52s are such a great point defence fighters, but unfortunately because of the present (and at least next decade) Pak-US relations we may not see it as a complete "Force multiplier". Its current role in WoT will come handy in future, but till then it will remain an independent MR aircraft.


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## ice_man

any recent picture of even ONE EREYIE flying???/ or parked on the tarmac?


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## Bratva

ice_man said:


> any recent picture of even ONE EREYIE flying???/ or parked on the tarmac?



Many things are swept under the rag for national security purposes. e.g Ojhri camp incident. Hamood ur rehamn Comission Report, Zia ul Haq plan crash facts and figures etc etc.. Same thing is being done with EREYIE. They won't be shown to Bloody civilians for natioanl security purposes. Only Government version is told on which we have to rely.


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## Aamir Hussain

nuclearpak said:


> Google earth shows a ZDK-03 at PAF Masroor. ZDK have also been seen flying over Karachi regularly and also for approach and after take off.



Could u let me know where exactly you saw the ZDK-03 in Masroor. I have checked Google Earth but missed it.


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## Jango

Aamir Hussain said:


> Could u let me know where exactly you saw the ZDK-03 in Masroor. I have checked Google Earth but missed it.



Here you go.







Coordinates at bottom. It is on the main flight line.

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## Windjammer



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## Thorough Pro

Pakistan requested E3 Sentry in early/mid eighties during Soviet-Afghan war, instead US offered E2C Hawkeye which Pakistan refused, that was a big mstake on Pakistan's part. we should have gone with E2C atthat time, although it was more of a "over sea" AEW&C plateform butit would have given Pak this new capability before any other nation in South East Asia, and by now we would have a very experienced airforce in AEW&C platforma dn their integration with other arms.

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## Thorough Pro

nabil_05 said:


> comes with a web of political strings, damn expensive to operate and maintain.



And almost impossible to get them from US, specially in these times.


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


>



Is it written school of air defence on the chest patch?

Wasn't AD School run by PA at Karachi?

Or PAF has one as well?


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## TaimiKhan

nuclearpak said:


> Is it written school of air defence on the chest patch?
> 
> Wasn't AD School run by PA at Karachi?
> 
> Or PAF has one as well?



Both have separate Air Defence doctrines, thus both have separate schools.


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## hassan1



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## farhan_9909

hassan1 said:


>




confirms that the radar placement in all the zdk03 are same

i thought the last 2 would be like this
this is a pure AESA platform

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## SQ8

farhan_9909 said:


> confirms that the radar placement in all the zdk03 are same
> 
> i thought the last 2 would be like this
> this is a pure AESA platform



why?
The idea is to have commonality and quicker introduction with the ZDK.A complete AESA upgrade is better carried out within five to ten years.

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## farhan_9909

Oscar said:


> why?
> The idea is to have commonality and quicker introduction with the ZDK.A complete AESA upgrade is better carried out within five to ten years.



hmm

anyway do you have any idea about the underconstruction Nescom electronics complex?

A guy from lahore i know told me that this establishment will have the infra to manufacture and design t/r modules locally for radar.

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## Armstrong

farhan_9909 said:


> hmm
> 
> anyway do you have any idea about the underconstruction Nescom electronics complex?
> 
> A guy from lahore i know told me that this establishment will have the infra to manufacture and design t/r modules locally for radar.



What did you mean by complete AESA ? Whats lacking in the ZDK-03 configuration !


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## farhan_9909

hybrid aesa

between pesa and aesa
because to scan vertical it must be steered mechanically

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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> What did you mean by complete AESA ? Whats lacking in the ZDK-03 configuration !



Basically the AESA array in the ZDK radar can only scan in the vertical .... so the dish is rotated mechanically to provide 360 coverage.

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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> Basically the AESA array in the ZDK radar can only scan in the vertical .... so the dish is rotated mechanically to provide 360 coverage.



Is that a disadvantage or more of a dicomfort ? As in what would be the opportunity cost of not having a dish that is rotated otherwise when compared with having one which is rotated mechanically ?


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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> Is that a disadvantage or more of a dicomfort ? As in what would be the *opportunity cost *of not having a dish that is rotated otherwise when compared with having one which is rotated mechanically ?



Quite simply, moving parts endure wear and tear.. the motor that moves it, the bearings on which it moves.. along with lubricant consumption..and an extra system in the rotating mechanism that is prone to a higher rate of failure than just static array.

So while the ZDK-03 may have been cheaper than the Erieye ..and theoretically does provide greater coverage and range..it also is more prone to failure and will incur a higher maintenance cost.

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## Safriz

Windjammer said:


>



The gouged eye that was in the sky........


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## Safriz




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## karan21

Can anyone tell me capabilities of Pakistan in radar development and what efforts are being made in Aesa and synthetic aperture radars??


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## gambit

> Oscar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Basically the AESA array in the ZDK radar can only scan in the vertical .... so the dish is rotated mechanically to provide 360 coverage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Armstrong said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a disadvantage or more of a dicomfort ? As in what would be the opportunity cost of not having a dish that is rotated otherwise when compared with having one which is rotated mechanically ?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Visualization is helpful...






The left illustration is the typical AWACS antenna shape with resulting beam shape.

Antenna shape dictate beam shape and the more deviation from circular, the more deviation the beam from the typical cone shape, and the fan shaped beam is always 90deg from antenna orientation. The right illustration is usually for ground air traffic control where the antenna simply 'nod' up/down. As the fan beam sweeps in that up/down motion, each movement corresponds to an altitude gradient, and that helps air traffic controllers distinguish individual flyers at different altitudes.

So for an AWACS (left), the 'saucer' shaped dome that houses the antenna must be rotated horizontally for the vertically oriented fan beam to provide 360 deg coverage. Even when the antenna is not transmitting, the dome should still be rotating a little bit to keep the entire contraption continuously lubricated.






That is what a typical 'cone' shaped beam looks like on a 3D graph. You can see the main cone where target info are actually processed. The side 'petals' are side lobes and undesirable. Many electronic warfare (EW) tactics targets the side lobes for confusing the system with distraction and false target data. The goal is to reduce, but never completely eliminate, side lobes in any design. ESA systems have much lower quantity of side lobes and whatever there are, those side lobes are much lower in intensity (distance from antenna) and far less vulnerable to ECM tactics.

So for an AWACS all you have to do is imagine flattening the main lobe into fan shape and really elongate the side lobes. An AWACS beam looks really weird on a 3D graph.

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## Armstrong

A noob question : How many AWACs do we need to provide complete coverage of Pakistan & enough coverage of the adjoining areas to respond preemptively in case of any misadventure against us ?


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## Armstrong

@ *Gambit* : Thanks for that, I appreciate it ! Please bear with me because I don't really know the first thing about these things & yet I'm interested to find out : Can the radar dome be constructed of such a configuration that it has two separate parts moving independently - One scanning the horizontal plane whilst the other scanning the Vertical plane & that their results are transmitted as such to the controller sitting inside the platform that he/she has at his/her disposal a truly 3-D image of the surroundings as far as the radar's coverage/range would permit it ?


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## gambit

Armstrong said:


> A noob question : How many AWACs do we need to provide complete coverage of Pakistan & enough coverage of the adjoining areas to respond preemptively in case of any misadventure against us ?


Never enough. That is a serious answer. Keep in mind that the aircraft is mobile so as it move you will need another to provide coverage where it used to be. And so on and so on. You will need to keep the aircraft on a constant altitude, heading, and airspeed so the entire system can provide continuous coverage of the entire border system because each aircraft will need to know the coverage range and area of the previous aircraft and on and on...So financially speaking, you will not have enough coverage.

Now, if you are tiny like Luxembourge...

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## Armstrong

gambit said:


> Never enough. That is a serious answer. Keep in mind that the aircraft is mobile so as it move you will need another to provide coverage where it used to be. And so on and so on. You will need to keep the aircraft on a constant altitude, heading, and airspeed so the entire system can provide continuous coverage of the entire border system because each aircraft will need to know the coverage range and area of the previous aircraft and on and on...So financially speaking, you will not have enough coverage.
> 
> Now, if you are tiny like Luxembourge...



So there really isn't a substitute for a good ground radar cover..is there ?

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## Armstrong

Okay people just one last noob question, lest I overstep my welcome (if I haven't already) : If a platform the likes of a decent sized propeller driven plane is enough to carry a radar & electronics suites to provide this much coverage why aren't there dedicated Radar Ships the size of a FAC (I'm thinking 100-500 tonnes) which are purely designed to provide radar coverage well upto a few hundred kms away with them operating just off the coast (I'm thinking a 100 or so Kms) ?

And *Gambit*, thanks man I really do appreciate the illustration & you taking out the time to answer that might come as sort of stupid at best & outright moronic at the very worst, to one who knows about these things !


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## gambit

Armstrong said:


> @ *Gambit* : Thanks for that, I appreciate it ! Please bear with me because I don't really know the first thing about these things & yet I'm interested to find out : *Can the radar dome be constructed of such a configuration that it has two separate parts moving independently* - One scanning the horizontal plane whilst the other scanning the Vertical plane & that their results are transmitted as such to the controller sitting inside the platform that he/she has at his/her disposal a truly 3-D image of the surroundings as far as the radar's coverage/range would permit it ?


No, because aerodynamic consideration trumps all demands. That is why an ESA system is so desirable. With an ESA system, you can do 'sub-array partitioning', like how computer geeks partition a physical hard drive into many logical hard drives.

For example...

Digital Array Radar Panel Development | EEWeb


> A 16-element, S-band *subarray* has been developed with panel-integrated, plastic-packaged high power amplifiers, multi-channel transceiver ICs, and digitization at the element level.



Sub-array partitioning and choreography software are complex and bad coding can produce many false targets.






From the above, only (a) is unitary while the other three have been partitioned into many sub-arrays for different purposes -- *AT THE SAME TIME.*. An AESA system is the only true real time multi-tasker. Everything else is just faking it. So you can have one sub-array to produce a fan beam for volume search and another sub-array to produce a tight 'pencil beam' for high precision target tracking.

And if your coding is bad, then you are in a world of trouble.

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## gambit

Armstrong said:


> So there really isn't a substitute for a good ground radar cover..is there ?


No. To provide continuous border coverage, ground stations are best, and that includes high elevation stations as well, such as on hill tops.



Armstrong said:


> Okay people just one last noob question, lest I overstep my welcome (if I haven't already) : If a platform the likes of a decent sized propeller driven plane is enough to carry a radar & electronics suites to provide this much coverage why aren't there dedicated Radar Ships the size of a FAC (I'm thinking 100-500 tonnes) which are purely designed to provide radar coverage well upto a few hundred kms away with them operating just off the coast (I'm thinking a 100 or so Kms) ?


You will have to hit up the Ministry of Finance on that one.

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## Bratva

these posts are treat to watch whenver ZDK is being discussed!



Sapper said:


> Thats not the ONLY reason, another reason is that a larger array can be placed in a rotating dome giving more range, while placing triangular dome reduces the size of each array by ~20%.
> 
> A simple trignometric analysis shows that the maximum array size of triangular dome (like KJ2000 and Phalcon) is 20% less than a straight radial array along its diameter (like E-3-Sentry, E-2D-Hawkeye, ZDK03).
> 
> Moreover, previously the pulse doppler version of rotating domes gave a 20sec radar darkness over any perticular point due to the fact that they could only illuminate targets in direct line of sight in perpendicular to the array, but the AESA doesnot have that restriction. Instead AESA can electronically steer a radar beam to illuminate 60 degrees to either side of perpendicular. This covers 120 degree to each side totalling 240 degrees of instantaneous view, while leaving 60 degree on each corner in radar darkness. When rotating at same speed of 40 sec per rotation, same as with pulse dopler version, it will illuminate a full 360 degree circle in 6 seconds. Thus a target is re-illuminated 6 seconds after it goes into dark region. Also this is assuming ZDK-03 has AESA with 120 degree field of view, which is only an assumption. In actuality it might have 150 degree field of view AESA (like Erieye atop Saab2000) which will reduce re-acquisition time to 3 sec.
> 
> One more thing to note is that fixed dome suffers from constant side lobe attenuations in regions deviating close its electronic steering boundary, for extended periods of time; while giving good target data at regions close to perpendicular. On the other hand, rotating dome ensures maximum search precision for all 360 degrees within a maximum of 10 seconds, and that too without changing the heading of the platform itself.
> 
> If you ask me, having 20% plus range is much much more desirable than 3 seconds of radar darkness, *besides* being cost effective as well.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper





Sapper said:


> Now my first assumption is that two complimenting AESAs are placed inside the rotating dome, i.e. the similar kind of double sided Erieye configuration, but in rotating configuration. This is based on the assumption that
> 1. Dual sided aesa was already available with china on Y-8 platform at similar cost, but not opted for by PAF,
> 2. AESA is comparatively thin and does not require additional wasted space for dedicated transmitter assembly on the backside, since every single unit is itself a transmitter reciever on its own.
> 3. China already posses the technology to fit 3xAESA in a radome and 2xAESA in sandwitch-BalanceBeam configurations, placing the balance beam config would have been no problem to place into a rotating radome.
> 
> If thats the case for ZDK-03 (unless proven on the contrary) I will proceed with the following calculations.
> 
> 
> Assume 40 sec per rotation, which is normal, and 120 arch illumination (60 deg from perpedicular) for AESA array, which is also normal.
> 360 deg per 40 sec = 9 deg per sec (RotationSpeed)
> 
> Assume a target is at 0-deg, Radar starts spinning, at radar's-0-deg, target is fully perpedicular and perfectly lit
> Radar goes to 45-deg, still lit.
> Radar goes 60-deg, still lit.
> Radar goes 61-deg, target lost.
> Now radar goes 90-deg, target is still lost.
> Radar goes 119-deg, still lost.
> Now radar comes to 120 deg, still lost for the array pointing 120, but the array facing exactly opposite to it i.e. at 120+180 deg = 300-deg has illumination till 360 deg, which is the same as 0-deg, target lit by opposing array, target acquired.
> 
> Now target lost at 61-deg ... and reacquired at 120-deg.
> Lost-Time = 60-deg / RotationSpeed = 60 / 9 = 6.6 sec
> 
> 
> I may be wrong, and ZDK-03 might only have a single AESA pointing to one side, as in legacy E3Sentry, in which case the re-acquisition will take 26 seconds to re-acquire target, but lets wait for the time when PAF or China releases specs. If thats the case apologies in advance.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper

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## Donatello

mafiya said:


> these posts are treat to watch whenver ZDK is being discussed!





Where is Sapper? Someone really needs to find him and drag him to post here on PDF. We really need his know how.

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## farhan_9909

can someone tell me how will Erieye and ZDK-03 communicate with each other when there is no SATCOM on any of them?

how will a F-16 be connected with Erieye?

has the F-16 link up completed with erieye?

or JFT with ZDK-03?

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## fatman17

Safriz said:


> The question about the stricken erieye remains unanswered..
> So we dont know how many erieye PAF are left with...



its answered. you dont want to believe it.

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## Jango

Safriz said:


> The question about the stricken erieye remains unanswered..
> So we dont know how many erieye PAF are left with...



Ab main bolun ga to acha nhn lagay ga, so I'll keep quite.

And in post 3043, it is 09049, not 10049.


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## Donatello

Say it...how many ERIEYE with PAF as of now?


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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> Ab main bolun ga to acha nhn lagay ga, so I'll keep quite.
> 
> And in post 3043, it is *09049*, or 10049.



Its 09049, not 10049. I ve seen the serial and bird as well.


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## Jango

danger-zone said:


> Its 09049, not 10049. I ve seen the serial and bird as well.



My bad. I wanted to write 'not 10049', mistakenly written as or. Corrected it now.


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## Abingdonboy

farhan_9909 said:


> can someone tell me how will Erieye and ZDK-03 communicate with each other when there is no SATCOM on any of them?
> 
> how will a F-16 be connected with Erieye?
> 
> has the F-16 link up completed with erieye?
> 
> or JFT with ZDK-03?


AFAIK it can't be done. There is no common data-link between the F-16,JF-17,ERIEYE or ZDK. The ERIEYE can talk to the F-16 and vice versa and the ZDK can speak to the Thunders and vice versa but the ZDK can't link to the F-16 nor can the ERIEYE connect to the Thunder.And as mentioned there is no SATCOM connectivity either.

This is a poor state of affairs but reflects the juggling game that Pakistan has to play to meet its security needs.


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## Safriz

^^^ How about link 16?
Now where is santro?


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## Edevelop

Safriz said:


> The question about the stricken erieye remains unanswered..
> So we dont know how many erieye PAF are left with...



... go to page 197 of this thread.


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## Capt.Popeye

Abingdonboy said:


> AFAIK it can't be done. There is no common data-link between the F-16,JF-17,ERIEYE or ZDK. The ERIEYE can talk to the F-16 and vice versa and the ZDK can speak to the Thunders and vice versa but the ZDK can't link to the F-16 nor can the ERIEYE connect to the Thunder.And as mentioned there is no SATCOM connectivity either.
> 
> This is a poor state of affairs but reflects the juggling game that Pakistan has to play to meet its security needs.



No there is a way out of that imbroglio. Communicating through ground-based micro-wave data links. Oscar is the expert on this.

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## Abingdonboy

Safriz said:


> ^^^ How about link 16?
> Now where is santro?



Link 16 is exclusively for F-16 and ERIEYE,no? It isn't fitted on the ZDK or JFT.


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## Safriz

Abingdonboy said:


> Link 16 is exclusively for F-16 and ERIEYE,no? It isn't fitted on the ZDK or JFT.



as far as i know its a communication standard as in a set of standards....hardware and software can be made by the user as per the defined standards..nothing fixed here..


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## Abingdonboy

Safriz said:


> as far as i know its a communication standard as in a set of standards....hardware and software can be made by the user as per the defined standards..nothing fixed here..



But the LINK-16 tech is Western tech so it's not available on the ZDK/JFT, right?


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## Safriz

Marhoom 



Abingdonboy said:


> But the LINK-16 tech is Western tech so it's not available on the ZDK/JFT, right?



its a protocol...a set of standards and a set of designated frequencies.....Not a proprietary technology...


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## Safriz

10040
.....................................


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## SBD-3

Safriz said:


> 10040
> .....................................


These are very old pictures, why are you posting them again?


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## Safriz

hasnain0099 said:


> These are very old pictures, why are you posting them again?



for R.I.P purposes
if you know what i mean.....


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## Edevelop

hasnain0099 said:


> These are very old pictures, why are you posting them again?



udaas hogiya hain...


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## Edevelop

hasnain0099 said:


> just wondering if somebody has posted it or not



Is this any good? Could someone outline its specs?

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## Imran Khan

another one ready
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

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## Safriz

^^^^ RPG sey kaisay bachaoo gey kaliyaa?

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## A.Rafay

We have this also!

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## TaimiKhan

Abingdonboy said:


> AFAIK it can't be done. There is no common data-link between the F-16,JF-17,ERIEYE or ZDK. The ERIEYE can talk to the F-16 and vice versa and the ZDK can speak to the Thunders and vice versa but the ZDK can't link to the F-16 nor can the ERIEYE connect to the Thunder.And as mentioned there is no SATCOM connectivity either.
> 
> This is a poor state of affairs but reflects the juggling game that Pakistan has to play to meet its security needs.



The good thing is, all the platforms, JF-17s, F-16s, Erieyes & ZDK have western communication systems which does include data communication also. So there is no issue in compatibility among these platforms based on the Chinese or western equipment. Issue is, are we allowed to integrate them together. Voice communication would be not a problem among all these platforms, data transfer is what needs to be looked into. thus for that for now GCS are going to be used, and PAF is making an inhouse solution through which the aircraft would be able to communicate and transfer data.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Donatello said:


> Okay, so after repairs, that makes it 3. Then what about the 4th one?



Pending delivery. 
Its better they keep it in Sweden cuz here, neither AWACs can help protecting us from enemies like USA nor our forces can protect them from enemies like Taliban or neighbour Intel. services.


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## Inception-06

What board protection this awacs have ? any flares weapons ?


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## Jango

Ulla said:


> What board protection this awacs have ? any flares weapons ?








This was during trials in Sweden.

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## Jango

danger-zone said:


> Pending delivery.
> Its better they keep it in Sweden cuz here, neither AWACs can help protecting us from enemies like USA nor our forces can protect them from enemies like Taliban or neighbour Intel. services.



You sure. Because J-019 was delivered in 2008, one aircraft in 2009 (09049, first one delivered), all others in 2010 (10025, 10040 and 10045). So that is five aircraft.

Saab 2000 Production list | Airfleets aviation

One thing to note is that this site and also a couple of others relating to airframes and registration show the status of 10025 as 'stored'.


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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> You sure. Because J-019 was delivered in 2008, one aircraft in 2009 (09049, first one delivered), all others in 2010 (10025, 10040 and 10045). So that is five aircraft.
> 
> Saab 2000 Production list | Airfleets aviation
> 
> One thing to note is that this site and also a couple of others relating to airframes and registration show the status of 10025 as 'stored'.



I have not seen 10045 in PAF fleet yet, although it was the first one to roll out for trials. Seen different pictures one Saab and three Erieyes but never saw 10045. I could be wrong though.
But just look at the data in the Link that you have shared, It has stated wrong Serials ... *09040* & *10049*. If you click on the given serials it gives you further details, where it state that 10025 is stored while its link has active service Erieye picture in it  What i am trying to say, it seems inaccurate data to me.
Again not Sure about --045, if it is already in PAF service.

............................................................................

I've been tracking Saab for quite long, take a look at an old post of mine when 10025 was not delivered. 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-karakoram-eagle-delivered-6.html#post2186033


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## Jango

danger-zone said:


> I have not seen 10045 in PAF fleet yet, although it was the first one to roll out for trials. Seen different pictures one Saab and three Erieyes but never saw 10045. I could be wrong though.
> But just look at the data in the Link that you have shared, It has stated wrong Serials ... *09040* & *10049*. If you click on the given serials it gives you further details, where it state that 10025 is stored while its link has active service Erieye picture in it  What i am trying to say, it seems inaccurate data to me.
> Again not Sure about --045, if it is already in PAF service.



Yeah, this link has wrong serials on these aircraft, but another site I visited yesterday also showed it as stored (10025 is the aircraft that went to Dubai Airshow).

As you said, c/n 45 was the first one to enter trials, so it would logically be the 3rd to enter PAF service, before 40 and 25. 

No pictures of it except trials with registration SE-045 (Swedish registration).


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## gambit

Ulla said:


> What board protection this awacs have ? any flares weapons ?


Flares are considered defensive distraction/seduction tactics. Not weapons.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Flares, chaffs, decoys etc.


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## Jango

danger-zone said:


> I've been tracking Saab for quite long, take a look at an old post of mine when 10025 was not delivered.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-karakoram-eagle-delivered-6.html#post2186033








What does this look like? 49 or 45? I think 49.

If it is 45, then it means it was the first one delivered, but the picture I posted previously (page 203) (dated Dec 2009) shows serial number ...49, and it was the first one delivered. And 09 or 10 tells us the date of induction. So logically it should be 09049, and 10045.

If it is 49 on the other hand, it confirms what we have been saying. And still, no picture of 45.

Hence I don't think the one in your post is 49 (maybe i'm wrong?). If the one in your post is indeed 49, then this one is 45 (which seems impossible because 49 was inducted in Dec 2009)

BTW, if that picture was from AFM, anybody got the issue or a better quality picture?


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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> What does this look like? 49 or 45? I think 49.
> 
> If it is 45, then it means it was the first one delivered, but the picture I posted previously (page 203) (dated Dec 2009) shows serial number ...49, and it was the first one delivered. And 09 or 10 tells us the date of induction. So logically it should be 09049, and 10045.
> 
> If it is 49 on the other hand, it confirms what we have been saying. And still, no picture of 45.
> 
> Hence I don't think the one in your post is 49 (maybe i'm wrong?). If the one in your post is indeed 49, then this one is 45 (which seems impossible because 49 was inducted in Dec 2009)
> 
> BTW, if that picture was from AFM, anybody got the issue or a better quality picture?




Ohhh man .... Why you no understand !

We received first Erieye in Dec 2009 and that was 09049 because a couple month before delivery we saw picture of an Erieye in a bit different Cameo and had no markings at all unlike SE-045 but it serial was SE-049. One of our TT Member posted pictures of this bird and mentioned about its delivery. (I Couldn't find relative post on DPK hence sharing link of another forum. dated 13-09-09, 10:45 PM) SAAB 2000 - Erieye - About to join Pakistan Airforce

The above picture you have posted is taken from *High Marks-10 Fire Power Display* which held in March-10 and ended in first week of April 2010.
Then at the end of the month we heard that Second Erieye has been delivered to Pakistan.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...tan-recieved-its-second-saab-erieye-awac.html (04-24-2010 07:19 PM) which was 10040. So the bird appeared in Highmarks10 was 09049.

When the first ZDK-03 rolled out in *Nov-2010*, few news articles stated that *Pakistan had already received Two SAAB Erieye AWACs till date*. Plz see the news in first two posts China rolls out AWACS aircrafts for Pakistan Air Force [Archive] - Siasat.pk Forums (14-Nov-2010, 01:12 AM)

Then In November 2011 we received Third Erieye 10025 at Dubai Air Show, which was too delayed as its serial itself says *(10)*. I read a couple article that stated Pakistan received third Erieye at Dubai, couldn't find even one right now. 

Hence no news related to SE-045 in my Bracket all i can show the rolling out ceremony, held in Sweden back in 2008 that was showing SE-045 in PAF markings 









we can apply F-16 Block-52 10801 theory here, that came to Pakistan in the last batch while it was the first one to roll out of LM. 

P.S. I have images AFM's Highmarks edition, gimme your mail address so i could send you. i cannot message any body here cus i am way too below 9000 posts.


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## Jango

danger-zone said:


> Ohhh man .... Why you no understand !....
> ...........
> ....P.S. I have images AFM's Highmarks edition, gimme your mail address so i could send you. i cannot message any body here cus i am way too below 9000 posts.



I completely understand it my friend. You said in the link you gave that it was 10049, and that created the confusion. That if the one in your pic was 49, then the one in my pic would have to be 45. But now since you were mistaken in that post, and it was indeed 49, it is all clear now. It is 09049 in both pics, you wrongly wrote it as 10049.

Yeah, no PM so here is my email.

SE-045 should be delivered, it has been 2 years since 2010!!!

And anyway, my source indicates that we have 4 AWACS in service, along with the one VIP.


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## Jango

Were these aircraft repainted at any time of their service within PAF?

10040 in one pic looks white, while all the rest AWACS are grey.


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## Safriz

Hello...
Can somebody comment on the credibility of this website?

It gives 5 diferent serial numbers of SAAB-200 and says all 5 are "Active"..

Saab 2000 Production List - Planespotters.net Just Aviation







10025 025 Saab 2000 AEW&C 05-2010 Active	SE-025	
10040 040 Saab 2000 AEW&C 02-07-2010 Active	SE-040	
10045 045 Saab 2000 AEW&C 03-10-2011 Active	SE-045	
10049 049 Saab 2000 AEW&C 23-02-2010 Active	SE-049	
J-019 019 Saab 2000 AEW&C 26-09-2008 Active	SE-019

Operator Aircraft List Pakistan - Planespotters.net Just Aviation
************************************************************************
Further history of Airframe search reveals..

SE-049 was previously F-GMVG and was operated by a French Airline from 1997-2001

SE-045 was previously LY-SBW and was operated by Lituanian airlines until 2009

SE-040 has no recorded History

SE-025 has no recorded history

SE-019 has no recorded history


That means at least two of the aircrafts are second hand....

and there are 5 SAAB-2000 registered in PAF's name

************************************************** ************

Kindly comment on the above data and its authenticity...


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## SQ8

Safriz said:


> Hello...
> Can somebody comment on the credibility of this website?
> 
> It gives 5 diferent serial numbers of SAAB-200 and says all 5 are "Active"..
> 
> Saab 2000 Production List - Planespotters.net Just Aviation
> 
> 10025 025 Saab 2000 AEW&C 05-2010 Active	SE-025
> 10040 040 Saab 2000 AEW&C 02-07-2010 Active	SE-040
> 10045 045 Saab 2000 AEW&C 03-10-2011 Active	SE-045
> 10049 049 Saab 2000 AEW&C 23-02-2010 Active	SE-049
> J-019 019 Saab 2000 AEW&C 26-09-2008 Active	SE-019
> 
> Operator Aircraft List Pakistan - Planespotters.net Just Aviation



One is the training aircraft.. and the status of one is undetermined despite all the claims and rumors flying around.

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## Safriz

Oscar said:


> One is the training aircraft.. and the status of one is undetermined despite all the claims and rumors flying around.



Another thing is that all aircrafts come up as 

First flight date	26/06/1997


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## SQ8

Safriz said:


> Another thing is that all aircrafts come up as
> 
> First flight date	26/06/1997



Because all these airframes were sourced second hand.

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## Safriz

Oscar said:


> Because all these airframes were sourced second hand.



But all the aircrafts do come up on Database as "Active" . 
I can only assume that none has been Decommissioned or Scrapped as of yet,or PAF has informed international Authorities for Collision avoidance and air traffic control purposes...


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## VCheng

Safriz said:


> But all the aircrafts do come up on Database as "Active" .
> I can only assume that none has been Decommissioned or Scrapped as of yet,or PAF has informed international Authorities for Collision avoidance and air traffic control purposes...



The damaged plane likely has a punctured front pressure bulkhead, and whether repair is possible, and if so, how to best do it, would take quite a while.


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## Safriz

Pakistan's "Airforce one" is also coming up as a Reworked/Reconditioned Aircraft instead of New..






AP-OOI	Airbus	A-310-304	A310	473	L2J	763DE9 GLAM	Pakistan Air Force	1989	F-WWCC	2007-02-27	A7-AAF active

Was with Qatar Government as VIP plane as F-ODSV from 1998(New)-2001
Then with Qatar Airways from 2001-2007 as A7-AAF
Now from 2007 with PAF as AP-OOI

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## araz

VCheng said:


> The damaged plane likely has a punctured front pressure bulkhead, and whether repair is possible, and if so, how to best do it, would take quite a while.



Could possibly answer and tie up all the different versions and interpretations flying about. We need to wait and see what happens. 
Araz


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## VCheng

araz said:


> Could possibly answer and tie up all the different versions and interpretations flying about. We need to wait and see what happens.
> Araz



Of course. I am sure that contingency planning already has taken care of the temporary reduction of one Erieye system, and further planning will return PAF capabilities in this area to full capacity soon enough.

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## Edevelop

When PIA retires Airbus A-310, could we convert them into our own AWACS or as Air Refulers ?


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## andyfisher

Bro VCheng,

I am not sure what full capacity you are speaking of mate.

AWACs are supposed to be a state's eye in the sky..to protect its territory and to mge its air assets, no?

It's a fact that pak does not have full control of its own defences, the yanks took care of that (ie when bro osama was murdered) and not to mention the continued incursion of aghan, ind and any other nation over pak territory.

pak as a state is in full rot..it does not have full sovereignty over its territory. 

think of the israelis..they shot down a yank asset even though it was their erstwhile ally...does pak have the fortitude to do the same wen there is an 'incursion' so as to properly say it has full control over its territory? No..so what is the point of having awacs aka eye in the sky..they might as well sell the whole lot for scrap, get chn crap weaponry for show and beg the yanks just like any other muslim country bro.




VCheng said:


> Of course. I am sure that contingency planning already has taken care of the temporary reduction of one Erieye system, and further planning will return PAF capabilities in this area to full capacity soon enough.


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## VCheng

cb4 said:


> When PIA retires Airbus A-310, could we convert them into our own AWACS or as Air Refulers ?



The A-310 can be retrofitted to function as an air refueler as the MRTT:

Airbus A310 MRTT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whether it is cost-effective for the capabilities offered is quite another matter.

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## razgriz19

Safriz said:


> Hello...
> Can somebody comment on the credibility of this website?
> 
> It gives 5 diferent serial numbers of SAAB-200 and says all 5 are "Active"..
> 
> Saab 2000 Production List - Planespotters.net Just Aviation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10025 025 Saab 2000 AEW&C 05-2010 Active	SE-025
> 10040 040 Saab 2000 AEW&C 02-07-2010 Active	SE-040
> 10045 045 Saab 2000 AEW&C 03-10-2011 Active	SE-045
> 10049 049 Saab 2000 AEW&C 23-02-2010 Active	SE-049
> J-019 019 Saab 2000 AEW&C 26-09-2008 Active	SE-019
> 
> Operator Aircraft List Pakistan - Planespotters.net Just Aviation
> ************************************************************************
> Further history of Airframe search reveals..
> 
> SE-049 was previously F-GMVG and was operated by a French Airline from 1997-2001
> 
> SE-045 was previously LY-SBW and was operated by Lituanian airlines until 2009
> 
> SE-040 has no recorded History
> 
> SE-025 has no recorded history
> 
> SE-019 has no recorded history
> 
> 
> That means at least two of the aircrafts are second hand....
> 
> and there are 5 SAAB-2000 registered in PAF's name
> 
> ************************************************** ************
> 
> Kindly comment on the above data and its authenticity...



all saab 2000 aircrafts are second hand. the aircraft went out of production long time ago.
but these airframes are capable of flying for two more decades atleast.


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## TAC

andyfisher said:


> Bro VCheng,
> 
> I am not sure what full capacity you are speaking of mate.
> 
> AWACs are supposed to be a state's eye in the sky..to protect its territory and to mge its air assets, no?
> 
> It's a fact that pak does not have full control of its own defences, the yanks took care of that (ie when bro osama was murdered) and not to mention the continued incursion of aghan, ind and any other nation over pak territory.
> 
> pak as a state is in full rot..it does not have full sovereignty over its territory.
> 
> think of the israelis..they shot down a yank asset even though it was their erstwhile ally...does pak have the fortitude to do the same wen there is an 'incursion' so as to properly say it has full control over its territory? No..so what is the point of having awacs aka eye in the sky..they might as well sell the whole lot for scrap, get chn crap weaponry for show and beg the yanks just like any other muslim country bro.



Incursion by 'ind'??? When did that happen? We all know about the afghan border issues which are complicated and we know about the unexpected incursion by US but keep wet dreams about 'ind' incursions to yourself. Almost all Pakistan assets including AWACS are for detterance to 'ind' and they are doing their job just fine.


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## Leo7

Pakistan air force need to increase its air survilance due to south asia air scurity .Pakistan sufferd from two bad experiance 
1....... IAF air craft inter in pak air in 2008 ,we intercept them nicely but it is different point 
2.......Usma bin laden operation ,it was true or not is different point but USAF air craft inter in our space
Due to above issues Pak air force acquire 4 chinese Awacs and 4 Swedish saab 200 eye Awacs .Chiniese Awacs are long range then Saab but saab is also good in range and in performance .I want show you that we have best of best.Pakistan F16s can directly connect saab without ground radar now we can do air mission at long range and this technology no neighbour of Pak have yet.


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## araz

Leo7 said:


> Pakistan air force need to increase its air survilance due to south asia air scurity .Pakistan sufferd from two bad experiance
> 1....... IAF air craft inter in pak air in 2008 ,we intercept them nicely but it is different point
> 2.......Usma bin laden operation ,it was true or not is different point but USAF air craft inter in our space
> Due to above issues Pak air force acquire 4 chinese Awacs and 4 Swedish saab 200 eye Awacs .Chiniese Awacs are long range then Saab but saab is also good in range and in performance .I want show you that we have best of best.Pakistan F16s can directly connect saab without ground radar now we can do air mission at long range and this technology no neighbour of Pak have yet.



Regarding the second incidence there seems to be more going on behind the scenes than has been told to the public. I agree that it was a shameful day for the defence infra structure, but tell me honestly what would you have done if US had encroached into your airspace. Would you have taken on their response if you had taken one of their planes down. We have a history of being American Poodles and lap dogs. Who in our polity or defence setup would have taken on the wrath of the US had we shot down their fighters/copters. 
Also please consider what you have to defend yourself against the US. With your inventory at the time what would you use ?
Araz

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## Leo7

I do not know what you want to show here .I discuss why should Pak acquire and why Pak is acquring AWAc.Technonolgy defference is reailty thatswhy Pak should acquire AWAc to stop this type of incidents to happen again.


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## hassan1



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## khail007

araz said:


> Regarding the second incidence there seems to be more going on behind the scenes than has been told to the public. I agree that it was a shameful day for the defence infra structure, but tell me honestly what would you have done if US had encroached into your airspace. Would you have taken on their response if you had taken one of their planes down. We have a history of being American Poodles and lap dogs. Who in our polity or defence setup would have taken on the wrath of the US had we shot down their fighters/copters.
> Also please consider what you have to defend yourself against the US. With your inventory at the time what would you use ?
> Araz



With respect sir, I am one of the strongest advocates of our armed forces at my level but after reading your post I am forced to outline the following plan in my mind.

So in this case, better to dissolve a million (approx.) strong forces into labor force with following intentions: 

Send them to ME on contracts to earn foreign exchange for Pakistan.
Utilize them to build infrastructure of Pakistan.
Utilize them in factories to increase the production for the sake of trade.
Bring the 'Waderah' system to an end and utilize this force for agricultural purposes.
Funnel all unnecessary expenditures to Health/Education and other sectors of importance.

Don't worry, for borders defense, 'Chowkidar' system from villages could be effectively utilized, they have to guard only the border markings nothing else.


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## araz

khail007 said:


> With respect sir, I am one of the strongest advocates of our armed forces at my level but after reading your post I am forced to outline the following plan in my mind.
> 
> So in this case, better to dissolve a million (approx.) strong forces into labor force with following intentions:
> 
> Send them to ME on contracts to earn foreign exchange for Pakistan.
> Utilize them to build infrastructure of Pakistan.
> Utilize them in factories to increase the production for the sake of trade.
> Bring the 'Waderah' system to an end and utilize this force for agricultural purposes.
> Funnel all unnecessary expenditures to Health/Education and other sectors of importance.
> 
> Don't worry, for borders defense, 'Chowkidar' system from villages could be effectively utilized, they have to guard only the border markings nothing else.


My friend
One of the disadvantages of not knowing people is that sometimes you do not see the motives behind what they write.
Most of us (myself included) are arm chair generals. With few exceptions we do not know the full facts and base our assumptions on the half baked info that we have.I am also one of these people.
HOWEVERone thing needs to be clear,we all have the betterment of Pakistan on our minds. One would assume that the army has
Regarding the OBL there are a lot of facts that we do not know.Whether they have been hidden from us for securitg reasons or out of sheerhiding of incompetence, one needs to understand that no institution in Pakistan is perfect.We are additionally hampered by an inept and biased government which should really be hung out to dry.It is at the end of the day a political decision as to whether you fight or bow out. In this case it was probably for the better that the armed forces did not intervene as the US retaliation would have been serious and harsh.

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

4rd one

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## ice_man

any one got pics of EREYIE flying. haven't seen them in ages. and where are the ZDK-03s deployed


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## DANGER-ZONE

ice_man said:


> any one got pics of EREYIE flying. haven't seen them in ages. and where are the ZDK-03s deployed



ZDK-03 = Masroo, Karachi.
Erieye = RIP (Recently, few weeks back, one bird is seen at Chaklala while taxing).


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## Safriz

danger-zone said:


> ZDK-03 = Masroo, Karachi.
> Erieye = RIP (Recently, few weeks back, one bird is seen at Chaklala while taxing).


Erieye is not RIP...
All are fine except one which is inactive and stored for repair or spare parts scavenging..
Thats 10025 which appeared in Dubai airshow..|That was the the one damaged in terrorist attack..
Only the airframe was damaged in the attack and since PAF bought all the SAAB 2000 secondhand and cheap,it may not have been feasible to get the airframe repaired,and so it was most probably stored for spares scavenging.
If need arises,the Erieye system can be removed from 10025 and fitted in another SAAB 2000.
But looks like PAF is in no hurry.

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## ghilzai

Safriz said:


> Erieye is not RIP...
> All are fine except one which is stored for repair or spare parts scavenging..



Khushal kar diya tu nay, thxs.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Safriz said:


> Erieye is not RIP...
> All are fine except one which is stored for repair or spare parts scavenging..
> Thats 10025 which appeared in dubai airshow..|That was the the one damaged in terrorist attack..



Ya ya ! sure sure ! ... Thats the Spirit

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## farhan_9909

nomi007 said:


>



real image?

the arrangement of radar seem like a pure aesa

3 aesa?or the image is nt real?


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## Safriz

danger-zone said:


> Ya ya ! sure sure ! ... Thats the Spirit



Naa maannay waloon kaa to koi ilaaj nahi hai...

The matter was investigated by many members here and what we found exactly matched with the original news report released by PAF.
Why do you think i am even giving the Airframe number? Must have done search/research into the matter..
But like i said....
There is no cure for perpetual suspicion...

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## DANGER-ZONE

Safriz said:


> Erieye is not RIP...
> All are fine except one which is inactive and stored for repair or spare parts scavenging..
> Thats 10025 which appeared in Dubai airshow..|That was the the one damaged in terrorist attack..
> Only the airframe was damaged in the attack and since PAF bought all the SAAB 2000 secondhand and cheap,it may not have been feasible to get the airframe damaged,and so it was most probably stored for spares scavenging.
> If need arises,the Erieye system can be removed from 10025 and fitted in another SAAB 2000.
> *But looks like PAF is in no hurry.*



When there is no MONEY, there is absolutely no HURRY. 




farhan_9909 said:


> real image?
> 
> the arrangement of radar seem like a pure aesa
> 
> 3 aesa?or the image is nt real?



PS ... made by PAFFALCONS PS'er Zeshan Bangash.
and the THREE antenna radar is under testing in china on the same platform which was presented to Pakistan in 2006 and will possibly be fitted on PLAN Carrier Borne AEW&C.

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## Safriz

danger-zone said:


> When there is no MONEY, there is absolutely no HURRY.



Erieye system is sitting there in PAF shed,and thats the most expensive component..
SAAB 2000 are dirt cheap these days and retrofitting the Erieye into SAAB 2000 isnt that expensive either...
Reasons may not be financial but other....


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## farhan_9909

danger-zone said:


> When there is no MONEY, there is absolutely no HURRY.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS ... made by PAFFALCONS PS'er Zeshan Bangash.
> and the THREE antenna radar is under testing in china on the same platform which was presented to Pakistan in 2006 and will possibly be fitted on PLAN Carrier Borne AEW&C.



pak should have opted for that..

or should upgrade the zdk-03


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## TVVELVEMO$

andyfisher said:


> think of the israelis..they shot down a yank asset even though it was their erstwhile ally...does pak have the fortitude to do the same wen......beg the yanks just like any other muslim country bro.



When did the state of Israel shoot down a US aircraft? *Pray do tell*?

And "erstwhile" means former, as in not anymore.....Do you have brand new information about rupture of US-Israeli ties that has not been leaked up here in US? Please enlighten us all.

"beg the Yanks...." This is too rich; I will deal with your riff at a later point in time.


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## S.U.R.B.

2012 was probably one of the worst years of the peace time activity for P.A.F.
Loss of 10 precious pilots and a total of 14 ACs is a big loss for an air force.(with an Attrition rate of about _2 % each year_-that's way more than western air forces.) Loss of the AEW&C platforms is a significant set back and it can also be demoralizing for the crew taking care/operating the asset.

On one hand we are losing the outmoded and kind of obsolete tech and on the other hand we failed to secure our pricey and latest aerial assets.

Finances will always play a pivotal role,keeping in mind that the air force is lower down the totem pole than the powerful & mighty Pak Army when it comes to budgetary distribution. Let's just hope that the condition gradually improves in favor of our air warriors.

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## Safriz

Must have been posted already but here we go again..







PAF Saab 2000 aircraft for training and transport


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## Gentelman

well there was also an AWACS from America. 
wt was that??
and what about the capabilities of chinees ZD EK AWACS???


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## Jango

Continue further discussion on the following thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/219130-attack-pakistans-erieye-19.html


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## airomerix

Kaiser said:


> All future pakistani fighters will presumably be datalinked with the eireye. The jf-16 and J-10 might be equiped with the DATALINK-16 the same advanced datalink used is the gripen and some missiles. Even without datalink-16 the jf-17 will still have a considerably better datalink than most fighters and any fighter in the iaf



PAF is still unable to data link the Mirages and JF-17 with the Eireye. This is why Kj-2000's are being procured in the first place (Even though some sources say it was Musharraf's will and Kaleem Saadat's disagreement over the AWACS purchase of Kj-2000.)


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## Mani2020

airomerix said:


> PAF is still unable to data link the Mirages and JF-17 with the Eireye. This is why Kj-2000's are being procured in the first place (Even though some sources say it was Musharraf's will and Kaleem Saadat's disagreement over the AWACS purchase of Kj-2000.)



not kj-2000 mate , they are different and only used by chinese ...its zdk-03


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## airomerix

Mani2020 said:


> not kj-2000 mate , they are different and only used by chinese ...its zdk-03



Oh my bad. I meant the ZDK-3


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## nomi007

Y-8GX6 Patrol/ASW Aircraft





i wish pn also join this chinese project


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> Y-8GX6 Patrol/ASW Aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i wish pn also join this chinese project



as long as they continue to have access to P3C's, i dont see any interest by PN planners.

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## dexter



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## Liquidmetal

dexter said:


>



I wish posters would label their images so that layman lurkers like me can get an education too. Please pray do tell what we are looking at? Thank you.


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## SQ8

Liquidmetal said:


> I wish posters would label their images so that layman lurkers like me can get an education too. Please pray do tell what we are looking at? Thank you.



Somebody's attempt to show the Erieye dispensing Flares.


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## dexter

Liquidmetal said:


> I wish posters would label their images so that layman lurkers like me can get an education too. Please pray do tell what we are looking at? Thank you.



Sorry for that its an PAF SAAB 2000 dispensing flares !


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## razgriz19

Oscar said:


> Somebody's attempt to show the Erieye dispensing Flares.



sorry but this is just a Saab 2000, NOT an Eriye.

look at the wingtips...

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## SQ8

razgriz19 said:


> sorry but this is just a Saab 2000, NOT an Eriye.
> 
> look at the wingtips...



Which is why I said an attempt.. Photoshopped attempt.


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## razgriz19

Oscar said:


> Which is why I said an attempt.. Photoshopped attempt.



my bad then, should've read it more carefully.






can someone identify how old this picture is?
IF this was taken after the attacks then why PAF still hasn't build bunkers for these aircrafts!?


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> my bad then, should've read it more carefully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> can someone identify how old this picture is?
> IF this was taken after the attacks then why PAF still hasn't build bunkers for these aircrafts!?



HAS are expensive to build for large a/c. such a/c are usually kept in hangers.


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## Manticore

razgriz19 said:


> my bad then, should've read it more carefully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> can someone identify how old this picture is?
> IF this was taken after the attacks then why PAF still hasn't build bunkers for these aircrafts!?



i posted the above picture 1-2 years back on this forum without any water marks-- at that time it was available on google seach

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## aziqbal

does anyone have any pics of ZDK-03 #11-003 and #11-004? has the 3rd and 4th unit been delivered to Pakistan? which base are they flying from?

i know the second one #11-002 has been delivered theres plenty of pictures of it and so it #11-001


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## Jango

aziqbal said:


> does anyone have any pics of ZDK-03 #11-003 and #11-004? has the 3rd and 4th unit been delivered to Pakistan? which base are they flying from?
> 
> i know the second one #11-002 has been delivered theres plenty of pictures of it and so it #11-001



No, both haven't been delivered AFAIK, and are still in China going T&E and crew conversion.


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## Nishan_101

I think PAF has taken up all the duties from PN on fixed wing aircraft then they might have bought at least 7 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs with 2 for PN role along with 8-11 Saab-2000MPAs with two hard points under each wing and fuselarge for weapons carriage and 7 Saab-340MSA with weapons carriage capability. This would have enhance the capability to a great extend...


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## Stealth



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## Manticore

Chinese ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle AEW&C And Y-8 GX6 Maritime Patrol Aircrafts ~ Global Military Review


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## Windjammer



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## giant panda

ZDK-03 CG

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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


>



http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/32222-aviation-art-4.html#post2556110

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## Imran Khan

razgriz19 said:


> my bad then, should've read it more carefully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> can someone identify how old this picture is?
> IF this was taken after the attacks then why PAF still hasn't build bunkers for these aircrafts!?



and they park this junk in bunker 





PAF why you no use your brain ?

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## Windjammer

*
Chairman Joint Chiefs Of Staff Committee Inside A PAF's AWACS Aircraft.*

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## Nishan_101

Stealth said:


>



I am sure that if PAF had gain the PN fixed wing fleet they might have added at least two Saab-2000 AEW&Cs along with 5 Saab-2000 MPA with weapons on them to the fleet and utilized PIA fleet of Foker as spares and aircraft to support the fleet till Y-9MPA arrives.



giant panda said:


> ZDK-03 CG



Surely we should have gone for at least 7 of these 5 for Western and 2 for the south.


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## Xestan

Windjammer said:


> *
> Chairman Joint Chiefs Of Staff Committee Inside A PAF's AWACS Aircraft.*



Here's the video:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=4844615505549

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## Safriz

So thats the first sighting of 10040 after terror attacks





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=4844615505549

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## fatman17

Safriz said:


> So thats the first sighting of 10040 after terror attacks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=4844615505549



so all the Saab's were destroyed eh! - proves what 'crap' people post on this board.



Imran Khan said:


> and they park this junk in bunker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF why you no use your brain ?



imran bhai awacs wont fit in this HAS - suggest we drop the subject.

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## Bratva

Xestan said:


> Here's the video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=4844615505549



No JF-17.... Interesting


----------



## Najam Khan

Safriz said:


> So thats the first sighting of 10040 after terror attacks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=4844615505549


Damn, same old footage.

Basically Exercise SB-2012/13 is now in ending phase and all that media release regarding AEW&C/CCS participation is released after few months of their round-the-clock use. Good thing is that such assets are now given special place in media release, not to satifsy PDF readers but to send signals on the other side of the border

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## fatman17

mafiya said:


> No JF-17.... Interesting



this clip is from Sargodha AB. Saffron Bandit is held in many airbases across PK.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> so all the Saab's were destroyed eh! - proves what 'crap' people post on this board.



And who exactly said that crap?

I did see it on some other boards, but not this one if memory serves correct.

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## Imran Khan



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## Bratva

Interesting development emerging. We thought ZDK03 will fulfill navy requirement but PN is converting Hawker beech aircraft into mini Awacs just like Hawkeye of USN. Presumably it will have an range of 360-370 KM.


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## SEAL

mafiya said:


> Interesting development emerging. We thought ZDK03 will fulfill navy requirement but PN is converting Hawker beech aircraft into mini Awacs just like Hawkeye of USN. Presumably it will have an range of 360-370 KM.



Maybe PN requirements are different beside PAF also operate two Beechcraft King Air 350 ISR.


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## MilSpec

fox said:


> Maybe PN requirements are different beside PAF also operate two Beechcraft King Air 350 ISR.



2 King Air-350 version, are AGS aircrafts, these were provided to pakistan as aid for surveillance of afghan border, these sigint a/c's are for air to ground survellence, to aid ground forces.

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## SEAL

sandy_3126 said:


> 2 King Air-350 version, are AGS aircrafts, these were provided to pakistan as aid for surveillance of afghan border, these sigint a/c's are for air to ground survellence, to aid ground forces.



Whats your point? I can see the special features of aircraft in the pic.
Did i said something wrong like they are bomb trucks? As far as i know they were *purchased* by us because i posted that news after reading contract details which can be found on this web. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...178cafb99c4a4833d4cb5&tab=core&tabmode=list&=

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## Safriz

mafiya said:


> Interesting development emerging. We thought ZDK03 will fulfill navy requirement but PN is converting Hawker beech aircraft into mini Awacs just like Hawkeye of USN. Presumably it will have an range of 360-370 KM.



Change in strategy after terrorist attacks on Shahbaz base in which Orions were destroyed.
Apperantly PN will use these small,low cost easy to maintain , platforms during peace time and save orions and other high value targets for war time or special circumstances.
That will prolong the life of high value assets and keep surveilance costs down.


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## BATMAN

sandy_3126 said:


> 2 King Air-350 version, are AGS aircrafts, these were provided to pakistan as aid for surveillance of afghan border, these sigint a/c's are for air to ground survellence, to aid ground forces.



Pakistan can buy squaderns of these... if it start charging Indians air and land transit fees.

Pakistanis annually subsidize refined petroleum to occupiers in Afghanistan, worth millions of dollars.


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## MilSpec

BATMAN said:


> Pakistan can buy squaderns of these... if it start charging Indians air and land transit fees.
> 
> Pakistanis annually subsidize refined petroleum to occupiers in Afghanistan, worth millions of dollars.



ok............


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## airomerix

Safriz said:


> Change in strategy after terrorist attacks on *Shahbaz base* in which Orions were destroyed.
> Apperantly PN will use these small,low cost easy to maintain , platforms during peace time and save orions and other high value targets for war time or special circumstances.
> That will prolong the life of high value assets and keep surveilance costs down.



Mehran* Base


----------



## Jango

I don't think it is an AWACS.

It may just be a replacement for the Atlantiques, and as a supplement for the incoming ATR's. 

More of a ISR platform rather than a AWACS.

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## sancho

nuclearpak said:


> *I don't think it is an AWACS.
> *
> It may just be a replacement for the Atlantiques, and as a supplement for the incoming ATR's.
> 
> More of a ISR platform rather than a AWACS.



They aren't but ground surveillance aircraft for land borders or if PN gets them also for coastal patrol, that's what sandy_3126 tried to point out too.

Also check this:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...quiring-two-king-air-350-isr-aircrafts-2.html


----------



## fatman17

sancho said:


> They aren't but ground surveillance aircraft for land borders or if PN gets them also for coastal patrol, that's what sandy_3126 tried to point out too.
> 
> Also check this:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...quiring-two-king-air-350-isr-aircrafts-2.html



old news but these assets are with the PAA for border surveillance.


----------



## itaskol

in near future you will get this one. based on Y 20

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## Gentelman

itaskol said:


> in near future you will get this one. based on Y 20



well what was AWACS in which Pakistan was jointely developing with china???
well we will have 1-2 of these birds hopefully...in near future bt currentely we need to replace our 3-3.5 gen junk with new JF-17 and others.....


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## sancho

fatman17 said:


> old news but these assets are with the PAA for border surveillance.



I know, it was just a clarification, since there were members who thought it would be an AWACS aircraft.


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## Manticore

Armed forces prepared to defend country: General Wynne 

ISLAMABAD: Three defence services have commenced joint combat exercises in various locations of the country to keep themselves fully prepared for any eventuality. The exercises are part of a regular winter feature but they have conspicuous significance in the wake of the ongoing sabre-rattling across the international frontiers and divide. The command of the forces is taking part physically in the exercise. Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Tahir Rafique Butt, who is an astute fighter pilot, took part in the demonstration of skill of his force in combined action with the troops of other wings.

Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC) General Khalid Shamim Wynne, who had commanded country&#8217;s prestigious full-fledge exercises more than once in the most difficult terrain in deserts of the country during harsh summer, went for over viewing of the joint action in the exercise while he was board on the state of art AEW&C Aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). * Enemies of Pakistan attempted to destroy the type of the aircraft in past, but all such state of art plans are fully operational. *Chief of the Army Staff (COAS) General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani also visited the exercise areas a day earlier. 

According to the PAF, General Khalid Shamim Wynne, while visiting the ongoing exercise &#8216;Saffron Bandit 012&#8212;3&#8217;&#8217; held at an Operational Base of PAF said that Pakistan is a peace-loving nation.

&#8220;Nevertheless, I am confident that we as a nation, the Armed Forces and specifically the PAF, are well-prepared to defend our sovereignty and territorial integrity,&#8221; he reiterated. &#8220;The prevailing complex global geo-political environment and regional threat situation are not only unique but also more challenging, since we face both internal and external threats. Therefore, readiness and war preparedness have attained enhanced significance. The PAF is a potent and frontline element of National Security, and through the highest levels of professionalism; it will always measure up to the expectations of the nation. In fact, the nation and the sister services draw strength from PAF&#8217;s commitment and motivation,&#8221; he added.

Earlier, CJCSC flew in an AEW&C Aircraft to observe the certain dimensions of aerial warfare and the professional handling and employment of integrated air and ground combat elements by the aircrew. It was yet another historic event when ACM Tahir Rafique Butt himself participated in the exercise and made an evaluation of the war preparedness of PAF Combat Squadrons. He was fully satisfied about the morale and state of preparedness of the force to match with call of the duty. While interacting with the participants after flying the mission, General Khalid Shamim Wynne said, &#8220;The opportunity to interact with the skilled Air Warriors and to practically fly with them in Exercise Saffron Bandit has afforded me an insight into the high quality of training standards maintained by the PAF. This Exercise, with the mandate of providing exposure and training to PAF&#8217;s Combat Crew in near-realistic environment, certainly serves well for enhancing war preparedness in the hi-tech scenario of aerial warfare. It is heartening to see PAF stepping into the future with its newly acquired capabilities and emerging concepts of employment.&#8221;

Exercise Saffron Bandit is a triennial command level exercise conducted in PAF since 994. A sequel of five exercises has been conducted so far while the ongoing is the sixth Saffron Bandit 012&#8212;3. This time, the environment is unique where modern capabilities of PAF are operating under one umbrella for the first time and Pak Army Aviation and Army Air Defence are also deployed for undertaking the exercise.

Earlier on his arrival, the CJCSC was received by ACM Tahir Rafique Butt and he was given a comprehensive briefing on the exercise.

Meanwhile, Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Tahir Rafique Butt had solo flight on single-seat fighting Falcon F-16 of the PAF while taking part in exercise Saffron Bandit 012&#8212;3 and it was rare phenomenon that the Air chief led the formation as he assumed strike escort mission believed to be work of a perfect combat pilot. 

Well-placed sources of the PAF told The News later in the evening that the Air chief who came in the fighter pilot fatigue and wearing gee-suit exclusively cut for the fighting pilots for maintaining pressure during the sharp moves. He flew from the operational base in central Pakistan. Disregarding any protocol attached with the Air chief he drove to hanger in a common jeep where the F-16 was parked. Such jeeps are devoted for the movement of the pilots. ACM Tahir Rafique Butt flew for about an hour with his strike mission and later had a cup of tea with his fellow pilots of the mission in the base mess. They also had chat about their experience of the mission. The pilots, who were partner in the mission eulogised the command of ACM Butt while the Air Chief expressed his satisfaction on the agility of the pilots and congratulated them on their accomplishment, the sources added.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-20496-Armed-forces-prepared-to-defend-country-General-Wynne

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## Safriz

^^^ So finally the official statement about erieyes have been released


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Not disputing what a serving ACM said, but then why the reports last year about 1 or 2 RPG hit aircraft?

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## Dazzler

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Not disputing what a serving ACM said, but then why the reports last year about 1 or 2 RPG hit aircraft?



There were some who "destroyed" one and damaged another, then there were some who "destroyed" the entire fleet

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## Jango

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Not disputing what a serving ACM said, but then why the reports last year about 1 or 2 RPG hit aircraft?



The person whom most people here take has the gospel truth, AVM Shahid Lateef was the first one to say that a RPG hit an aircraft near the Nose. And eyewitnesses from the village reported fire, claim further backed up by fire tenders moving into the base...

You are a intelligent guy, do the math.

BTW, the above article hasn't quoted anybody or given any lijk, the only quote regarding this was from Sec Def, whose statement was quire contrary to the above.

Anyways, we have had this before, so let's agree to disagree without taking shots at eachother...

As of now, nobody has any proof to back up his claims, and my source is as good as the other guys's and so on...


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## Safriz

nabil_05 said:


> There were some who "destroyed" one and damaged another, then there were some who "destroyed" the entire fleet



Believe me..all these Rumours were spread by the Civilians living in Kamra colony and that aftar Party statement by Defence secretary..
Official statement By armed forces hasn't changed since Day one.

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## Jango

Safriz said:


> Believe me..all these Rumours were spread by the Civilians living in Kamra colony and that aftar Party statement by *Defence secretary*..



Correction, *Defence minister* at Iftar party said that no aircraft was destroyed and only nose cone had damage...Kamra colony I don't know about that, but I guess their rumors were that the Saab was destroyed. So two opposite statements?




> Official statement By armed forces hasn't changed since Day one.



It's been ever evolving, now they have done the best thing, keep quite...and have a total clampdown.

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## Najam Khan

Please lets not start those circuling arguments about Minhas attack again. We all should stop this ego game now, otherwise we'll end up in repeating same points again and again.

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## nomi007

brothers of zdk-03





last year there were three birds in service, the number now stands at 6

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## Liquidmetal

I am sorry, that is a 'report ' in a newspaper not an official release by the paf hence can someone, someone on site with high credentials like h khan, Mr shahmim, windjammer etc confirm the truth regarding the awacs/aewc assets.


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## Jango

Posts on the Saab 2000 problem on the following thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/219130-attack-pakistans-erieye-25.html


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## unicorn

The briefing of members of the committee was held behind closed doors. The word 'destroyed' in various articles should not be taken as the plane completely destroyed. Also keep in mind that journalist in our media have bad track record of reporting defence a.k.a technical related issues.


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## SBD-3




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## Dazzler



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## Bratva

Irony, they can build a large hanger for a 80 Million AWAC. but didnt bother to build a proper hanger for a 300 Million dollar AWAC which were parked in an open shelter until the day of Attack.

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## muse

mafiya said:


> Irony, they can build a large hanger for a 80 Million AWAC. but didnt bother to build a proper hanger for a 300 Million dollar AWAC which were parked in an open shelter until the day of Attack.



Irony? Well, lets just say it's "curious" -- Almost as if they had issued an invitation to what we call "the terrorists" - God only knows what those who refused to protect these call them.


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## fatman17

mafiya said:


> Irony, they can build a large hanger for a 80 Million AWAC. but didnt bother to build a proper hanger for a 300 Million dollar AWAC which were parked in an open shelter until the day of Attack.



where did u get these costs?


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## Fieldmarshal

mafiya said:


> Irony, they can build a large hanger for a 80 Million AWAC. but didnt bother to build a proper hanger for a 300 Million dollar AWAC which were parked in an open shelter until the day of Attack.



that my friend is total and utter B.S.

all Saabs were parked inside proper hangers, the likes of which u see above in the karakarum eagle pic.
infact one of the saab hanger is huge, so huge that it can house three saabs simultaneously and it was this hanger that was hit and the rpg rocket was only able to penetrate the hanger as the hanger door was open 1/3 of the way to make way for the fuel bowser.
furthermore all saab hangers are climate controlled.

the pics we see of the saabs parked in "open sheds" are the *pics of the flight line and not of actual hangers *that house the awacs.
all this confusion has been circulated by over zealous kids who cant differenciate their hind side from their front.
i hope that clears the confussion.

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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> where did u get these costs?




Janes Report which said Pakistan will buy four AWAC from china at a price of 278 Million dollar and In recent parliamentary briefing Sec Def and Additional Sec Def quoted price of 250-300 Million dollar per AWAC and Initially when deal was signed for Saab, Media reports quoted 1.3 Billion Dollar.

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## diabolic_67

I think what is trying to suggest that the hanger was not resistant to an attack, or that the cost of an armoured aircraft pen is relative still a small amount when compared to the cost of loosing a national airborne surveillance capability.
Yes you maybe correct that Minhas had a very large covered shed for Swedish aircraft, but the hangers were not secure and could not stop miscreants from completing their mission. I feel that it maybe a missed assessment of the asymmetric threat that exists in Pakistan, and affects us all.



Fieldmarshal said:


> that my friend is total and utter B.S.
> 
> all Saabs were parked inside proper hangers, the likes of which u see above in the karakarum eagle pic.
> infact one of the saab hanger is huge, so huge that it can house three saabs simultaneously and it was this hanger that was hit and the rpg rocket was only able to penetrate the hanger as the hanger door was open 1/3 of the way to make way for the fuel bowser.
> furthermore all saab hangers are climate controlled.
> 
> the pics we see of the saabs parked in "open sheds" are the *pics of the flight line and not of actual hangers *that house the awacs.
> all this confusion has been circulated by over zealous kids who cant differenciate their hind side from their front.
> i hope that clears the confussion.



So they finally officially admit to one aircraft totaled in the attack. I wonder what happened to the other two. I won't be surprised that this is still a half truth, or half lie, whichever suits you from your frame of reference.


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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> that my friend is total and utter B.S.
> 
> all Saabs were parked inside proper hangers, the likes of which u see above in the karakarum eagle pic.
> infact one of the saab hanger is huge, so huge that it can house three saabs simultaneously and it was this hanger that was hit and the rpg rocket was only able to penetrate the hanger as the hanger door was open 1/3 of the way to make way for the fuel bowser.
> furthermore all saab hangers are climate controlled.



This one...












I got it checked, this may be the flight line, but aircraft are left in that tin shed for overnight or prolonged parking, as is evident through some pics which show the pitot tubes covered, chocks in place, and intake covers as well. 

Aircraft might have been in the larger hangar during Kamra attack (will try to check), but they are routinely left in the shed.


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## Fieldmarshal

nuclearpak said:


> This one...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got it checked, this may be the flight line, but aircraft are left in that tin shed for overnight or prolonged parking, as is evident through some pics which show the pitot tubes covered, chocks in place, and intake covers as well.
> 
> Aircraft might have been in the larger hangar during Kamra attack (will try to check), but they are routinely left in the shed.




regarding the stationing of the ac, it all depends on the operational requirment of the ac in question. if they are ready to get air borne at a monents notice than yes the ac will be left on the flight line but if their is no immediate operational requirment for the ac than it iwll be parked in the hanger.
specially now with all the terror activety when even the us military is not safe from them. gone are the days when ac were left parked on the flight line on peace time row after row.


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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> as i recall the pics u have posted above are from chaklala n not kamrah



They are 100% from Kamra, I'll see if we can identify them from Google Earth. And Chaklala has no hangars like these. Besides, Saab squadron is in Kamra.

Edit: Checked on GE. There is no Hangar like this in Chaklala, while there is exact same structure present in Kamra opposite the tin shed structure.



> regarding the stationing of the ac, it all depends on the operational requirment of the ac in question. if they are ready to get air borne at a monents notice than yes the ac will be left on the flight line but if their is no immediate operational requirment for the ac than it iwll be parked in the hanger.



It's all pretty random as you said, no hard and fast rule. Maintenance is done within the hangar though.



> specially now with all the terror activety when even the us military is not safe from them. gone are the days when ac were left parked on the flight line on peace time row after row.



Agreed, that too all at one time!


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## Nishan_101

nuclearpak said:


> This one...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got it checked, this may be the flight line, but aircraft are left in that tin shed for overnight or prolonged parking, as is evident through some pics which show the pitot tubes covered, chocks in place, and intake covers as well.
> 
> Aircraft might have been in the larger hangar during Kamra attack (will try to check), but they are routinely left in the shed.



PAF should have upgraded their bases and should have made some new ones in SINDH. And PAF should have placed an order for about 7 Saab-2000SEW&Cs and about 11 Saab-2000 and 7 Saab-340 Military Transport and about 7 Saab-340/Saab-2000 SIGNIT/ELINT or reconnaince instead of Army getting 3-5 US ones...



nabil_05 said:


>



PAF should also have bought 7 of these so that they can place 2 Saab-2000AEW&C and 2 ZDK-03AEW&C for Naval role along with procurement of 11 Y-9MPA


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## Fieldmarshal

Nishan_101 said:


> PAF should have upgraded their bases and should have made some new ones in SINDH. And PAF should have placed an order for about 7 Saab-2000SEW&Cs and about 11 Saab-2000 and 7 Saab-340 Military Transport and about 7 Saab-340/Saab-2000 SIGNIT/ELINT or reconnaince instead of Army getting 3-5 US ones...
> 
> 
> 
> PAF should also have bought 7 of these so that they can place 2 Saab-2000AEW&C and 2 ZDK-03AEW&C for Naval role along with procurement of 11 Y-9MPA



and money grows on trees !!!

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## TOPGUN

PAF is just fine with what it has and knows it's needs the amount of awacs aircraft and ecm aircrafts in the fleet are just fine ..infact, good enough so lets stop the lost dreams on part of PAF and enjoy and be thankful to our AF.

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## Glitcher

TOPGUN said:


> PAF is just fine with what it has and knows it's needs the amount of awacs aircraft and ecm aircrafts in the fleet are just fine ..infact, good enough so lets stop the lost dreams on part of PAF and enjoy and be thankful to our AF.



Agreed There is no satisfaction  the more we have the more we desire

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## diabolic_67

I want to lay the "would have could have should have" arguments to rest.

The aircraft are parked in pens are per operational requirements. 

The attack that came on MINHAS was very well planned and coordinated, beyond the scope of any rag tag Taliban or insurgent / terrorist movement. It is irrelevant where the aircraft would have been parked, since the PAF planners did not prepare for a suicide attack squad. For the record, it is impossible to stop attackers who decide to kill themselves for a mission.

Operational aircraft cannot be locked down and put under bomb blankets. 

What happened is a national tragedy and a continuation of asymmetric and guerrilla warfare focused on key Pakistani capabilities acquired during the Musharraf government. Till the time a correct threat assessment is made by professionals and effective security measures, employing technology, trained manpower, and network centric quick response teams supported with heavy fire power and night fighting capability, these attacks will continue to succeed at various levels. 



nuclearpak said:


> This one...


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## Glitcher

diabolic_67 said:


> I want to lay the "would have could have should have" arguments to rest.
> 
> The aircraft are parked in pens are per operational requirements.
> 
> The attack that came on MINHAS was very well planned and coordinated, beyond the scope of any rag tag Taliban or insurgent / terrorist movement. It is irrelevant where the aircraft would have been parked, since the PAF planners did not prepare for a suicide attack squad. For the record, it is impossible to stop attackers who decide to kill themselves for a mission.
> 
> Operational aircraft cannot be locked down and put under bomb blankets.
> 
> What happened is a national tragedy and a continuation of asymmetric and guerrilla warfare focused on key Pakistani capabilities acquired during the Musharraf government. Till the time a correct threat assessment is made by professionals and effective security measures, employing technology, trained manpower, and network centric quick response teams supported with heavy fire power and night fighting capability, these attacks will continue to succeed at various levels.



So by Your point of view spec ops should be assigned for such duty


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## White Lightning

[B]Pakistan military conducting 'Saffron Bandit' exercise[/B]


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## diabolic_67

A blind Spec Ops unit facing a multi prong attack in FIBUA/MOUT is quite stressed. Deploying spec ops teams for sentry duties is a sheer waste. They should be on short notice deployments tied to air units for fast roping into a hot zone when primary QRF calls for backup under heavy fire, or to neutralize a VP hostage or clearance situation.

What I suggest is correct threat analysis, deployment of a multi-layered security system, night fighting capability, and training, training, training. When we do the same for all other OPS missions, why do we ignore security and the threat it represents to our Vital Points? Baffles me.

It took just one trained person with the correct gear (need I say more?), training, and optics to interdict the complete miscreant team in Kamra. Imagine if it was properly setup for the conventional forces, then there is really no threat to our assets.

Maybe the security of key conventional warfare assets should also be handed over to Strategic forces, so at least they can survive the asymmetric warfare of attrition that Pakistan is currently enduring. Otherwise, the strategic assets will themselves become vulnerable to a first wave if the conventional forces and the key capabilities acquired during Musharraf Era are neutralized prior to their actual need of deployment. 



Glitcher said:


> So by Your point of view spec ops should be assigned for such duty

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## Nishan_101

Though better for PAF to bought about 7 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs along with 11 Saab-2000 and 7 Saab-340 for Transport and replace the aging Foker and put them as MPA for PN...


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## Arsalan

Nishan_101 said:


> PAF should have upgraded their bases and should have made some new ones in SINDH. And PAF should have placed an order for about 7 Saab-2000SEW&Cs and about 11 Saab-2000 and 7 Saab-340 Military Transport and about 7 Saab-340/Saab-2000 SIGNIT/ELINT or reconnaince instead of Army getting 3-5 US ones...
> 
> 
> 
> PAF should also have bought 7 of these so that they can place 2 Saab-2000AEW&C and 2 ZDK-03AEW&C for Naval role along with procurement of 11 Y-9MPA





Nishan_101 said:


> Though better for PAF to bought about 7 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs along with 11 Saab-2000 and 7 Saab-340 for Transport and replace the aging Foker and put them as MPA for PN...



By the way, the discussion is about what should have been done to stop this terrorist attack and what could have prevented the damage. can you enlighten us how buying 7 planes for this and 7 for that and more for BS could have helped in preventing the damage done by this terrorist attack??

Cut this Nishan!!
How many times you have been found guilty of dreaming things that are not possible and not even required. PLEASE!!


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## Nishan_101

I think we need to improve our security at all the bases that we have... By proper training and equiping the soldiers...


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## Arsalan

Nishan_101 said:


> I think we need to improve our security at all the bases that we have... By proper training and equiping the soldiers...



Agreed, Ahh for once
Thanks Nishan!

But still its the Equiping the soldiers part from your that i fear, eyes on some laser guns or something?
Kidding!

Yes, proper training and night fighting abilities is a must.

Moreover, these are things that are to be nipped in the bud as once they terrorists are out, committed to get themselves killed, then they are very hard to counter.

You know, the nuclear proliferation acts put strong measures to avoid and limit the availability of enriched Uranium, because, this is the main thing. Ones it is made available, the Atom bomb is not that far away.
Similarly, we need to act proactively, find and eliminate the cause of problem.
Intelligence networks need to work more efficiently and the security forces then need to pay more attention to what they are warning about.


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## Glitcher

diabolic_67 said:


> A blind Spec Ops unit facing a multi prong attack in FIBUA/MOUT is quite stressed. Deploying spec ops teams for sentry duties is a sheer waste. They should be on short notice deployments tied to air units for fast roping into a hot zone when primary QRF calls for backup under heavy fire, or to neutralize a VP hostage or clearance situation.
> 
> What I suggest is correct threat analysis, deployment of a multi-layered security system, night fighting capability, and training, training, training. When we do the same for all other OPS missions, why do we ignore security and the threat it represents to our Vital Points? Baffles me.
> 
> It took just one trained person with the correct gear (need I say more?), training, and optics to interdict the complete miscreant team in Kamra. Imagine if it was properly setup for the conventional forces, then there is really no threat to our assets.
> 
> Maybe the security of key conventional warfare assets should also be handed over to Strategic forces, so at least they can survive the asymmetric warfare of attrition that Pakistan is currently enduring. Otherwise, the strategic assets will themselves become vulnerable to a first wave if the conventional forces and the key capabilities acquired during Musharraf Era are neutralized prior to their actual need of deployment.



They Are Vulnerable


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## Tehmasib

The support behind fighters &#9829;


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## fatman17

*Aerial Eyes: Pakistan&#8217;s New AWACS Fleets*


Mar 06, 2013 12:12 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff Latest updates [?]: Pakistan's government comes clean, admits that a terrorist attack has destroyed 1 AWACS. Updates since 2008 include arrival of 4 Saab 2000 AWACS; Contract for 4 Chinese ZDK-03 "Karakorum Eagle" AWACS; Clarity re: Saab numbers, but not dollars; Article improvements, incl. added research links. 
In June 2006, Saab signed a SEK 8.3 billion provisional contract to supply Argus turboprop airborne early warning (AEW&C) systems to Pakistan, based on the Saab 2000 regional turboprop airliner and the Erieye fixed active array radar. The buy capped a 25-year quest by the Pakistani Air force to field AWACS machines, which can survey the airspace for hundreds of miles around, and co-ordinate intercept and strike missions based on what it sees.

The Saab aircraft beat other competitors, including US offers to sell the E-2C Hawkeye system. In 2007, the buy was reduced somewhat for financial reasons, but Pakistan took delivery of at least 4 planes. Then, in 2008, the PAF looked to China for another 4 AWACS. Despite some setbacks, Pakistan now has a diverse AWACS fleet with more than 5 aircraft, even as its rival India has struggled to field 3 planes&#8230;

Pakistan&#8217;s New AWACS

Saab on Erieye
&#8220;SAAB 2000 & ERIEYE AWE&C system &#8221; (now a dead link), a Pakistani government site explains the operational need for these aircraft, and chronicles the country&#8217;s pursuit of the 707-based E-3C AWACS aircraft and related systems since 1979. Indeed, Pakistan had pursued the Erieye system before, but had been rejected several times under Sweden&#8217;s military export policies. 

Once that obstacle was cleared, Pakistan engaged in long negotiations with Saab, finally clinching a deal in 2006. With respect to the new S2000 AEW&#8217;s radar capabilities, the article notes that:

&#8220;The Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar uses an active array with 200 solid state modules. The range of the S-band, 3 GHz, and side looking radar is 300 km. The 1,985-lb (900-kg) dorsal antenna is housed in a 29-ft 6.3-in (9-m) long box radome mounted atop the fuselage. Utilizing adaptive side lobe suppression, the look angle on each side is about 160 degrees. From its standard operational altitude of 6000 metres (19,685 feet, or FL200) the radar has a maximum range of 450 km (279 miles). Against a fighter-sized target effective range is approximately 330 km (205 miles). Seaborne targets can be detected at 320 km (198 miles), though this is a function of the aircraft&#8217;s cruising height. The electronically scanned antenna can scan sectors of interest frequently while others are monitored, and a single sector can be scanned in different modes at the same time.&#8221;

That last bit is a reference to the AESA radar&#8217;s ability to scan ground and air activity at the same time, rather than switching between these modes as conventional radars do. An Australian airpower article explains the potential benefits of AESA radars against other AEW&C offerings like the E-2C Hawkeye &#8211; and also notes the limitations of the Erieye system: 
S-1000 & Gripen
&#8220;The limitation of the two sided array is that it can only cover two 120 degree sectors abeam of the aircraft, leaving 60 degree blind sectors over the nose and tail of the aircraft, and reduced antenna performance from 45 degrees off the beam aspect. Another limitation stems from the use of an airframe too small to accommodate a comprehensive self contained command, control and communications system, and other sensors such as a capable ESM and track association system.&#8221;

Saab&#8217;s corporate release explains the split: 2/3 of the order value is for Saab, and 1/3 for Ericsson Microwave Systems&#8217; PS-890 Erieye radars. EMS &#8220;is, after the Saab acquisition [see DID coverage], expected to be a part of Saab in September 2006.&#8221; Subsequent reports finally establish the number of planes bought at 4.

A 2008 buy added 4 Chinese ZDK-03 &#8220;Karakoram Eagle&#8221; AWACS planes, based on the Y-8F-600 turboprop cargo plane with improved engines and modern avionics. These larger planes use a more conventional &#8220;rotating radome&#8221; arrangement, and supposedly uses the same active electronically steered array radar used in China&#8217;s Y-8F-400 derived KJ-2000 AWACS. The ZDK-03 is also said to be compatible with secondary ELINT surveillance roles.

Contracts and Related Events
2011 &#8211; 2013
Terrorist attack destroys an S2000 plane.

Over the hump?
Feb 6-9/13: Revelations. Defence Secretary Lt. Gen. (ret.) Asif Yasin Malik informs Pakistan&#8217;s National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence that the defence installations saw their last attacks in Peshawar and the Kamra airbase, but adds that an AWACS plane was destroyed during the attack on Kamra AB in August 2012. Initially, it isn&#8217;t clear which AWACS plane type he&#8217;s referring to, but a subsequent report by Pakistan&#8217;s The News International confirms that it was one of Saab&#8217;s S2000 AEW planes. 

That&#8217;s a bit awkward, because Pakistani authorities have apparently been claiming for the last 6 months that the attack had just damaged an aircraft&#8217;s nose cone, and that it would be repaired in Sweden. The report also refers to &#8220;one of the four&#8221; planes, which would finally provide a reliable number. 

Speaking of reliable numbers, the report quotes varied prices per plane of $130-140 million, up to $250 million. It&#8217;s true that the final, reduced deal was worth about $1 billion, so dividing by 4 does get $250 million. On the other hand, any purchase like this must also include extensive training, a full stock of spare parts, and extensive initial support. A $140 million per plane figure implies a split of $560 million planes (140 x 4) + $440 million support etc. That seems high, but it all depends on the level of support provided. The News International | TNI follow-on .

Aug 16/12: Minhas attack. The Pakistani Taliban attack Minhas Air Base, at Kamra about 60 miles NW of the capital, Islamabad. Base commander Air Commodore Muhammad Azam is reported to be seriously wounded but in a stable condition, 2 soldiers die, and all 8 attackers are killed. It later emerges that 1 of the Saab AEW aircraft was destroyed.

Minhas is one of Pakistan&#8217;s biggest air bases, including new JF-17 Thunder fighters being assembled there as part of a joint venture with China. That makes the 3rd major attack and breach of a secure Pakistani military facility in the last 3 years or so. BBC .
Minhas AB attack
2006 &#8211; 2010
Deal signed for S2000 AEW&C planes, then reduced; S2000s rolled out and begin arriving; Subsequent deal for 4 Chinese ZDY-03 &#8220;Karakoram Eagle&#8221; AWACS; ZDY-03 rollout.

ZDK-03 rollout
click for videoNov 13/10: ZDK-03. China holds a rollout ceremony for Pakistan&#8217;s ZDY-03 AWACS system , based on the 4-engine Yun-8 cargo turboprop. Pakistan ordered 4 of the planes in 2008, rather than adding to its purchase from Saab. Deliveries aren&#8217;t expected to begin before 2011.

The purchase of Chinese AWACS planes could be due to several factors. One is the cost per additional aircraft from China, which can compete very aggressively on price. Another involves Pakistan&#8217;s close relations with China, which extend to joint military programs like the JF-17 Thunder fighter. Then there&#8217;s the cautious impetus for supplier and technology diversification, so that problems with any one platform or its suppliers don&#8217;t impair a strategic national capability like AWACS. Pakistan Military Review | 2011 delivery picture . 
ZDK-03s
April 24/10: Erieye #2 arrives. Pakistan&#8217;s 2nd of 4 Saab-2000 AEW aircraft lands at an operational base, as preparations are made to induct it into the fleet. PTI .


Induction
Dec 14/09: Erieye. Pakistan&#8217;s Daily Times quotes Minister for Defence Production, Abdul Qayyum Khan Jatoi, who confirms that the 1st Erieye AWACS plane has reached Pakistan, and 3 more planes are expected in 2010. The formal induction ceremony takes place on Dec 29/09. Karachi News . 
S2000-AEW 1st arrival
Oct 21/09: Erieye.. In a ceremony in Linköping, Saab and the Pakistan Air Force celebrate the start of the final tests of the new Erieye AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control) aircraft. The aircraft is currently undergoing system tests in Sweden, which aim is to evaluate the complete system including aircraft, radar, C2 system, communication and live situation picture. Follow on testing in Pakistan later in 2009, including integration into the Pakistan Air Force&#8217;s Command & Control Ground Environment. 

May 28/09: Erieye. Pakistan&#8217;s Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, is quoted by Pakistan&#8217;s The News International as saying that Pakistan would begin receiving its AWACS planes by October 2009.

April 3/08: Erieye. China&#8217;s government-controlled Xinhua reports that the first Saab 2000 Erieye aircraft for the PAF was rolled out in Sweden and prepared for flight trials by the year end, after being equipped with a full suite of mission systems. &#8220;The Pakistan Air Force achieved a major landmark in its Airborne Early Warning Program with the roll out of its first Saab 2000 AEW&C in a simple but impressive ceremony at the Saab facility in Sweden,&#8221; the PAF statement said.

The aircraft will be put through trials before being delivered to the PAF in 2009. See also Flight International&#8217;s photo coverage , which puts the total number of Saab 2000 aircraft at 5. 
S2000-AEW Rollout
May 28/07: Erieye. Maybe not quite finalized. A Saab release states that:

&#8220;With reference to the sale of Saab Airborne Surveillance Systems to Pakistan, the customer has for financial reasons and in accordance with the original contract, asked to renegotiate part of the contract concerning a reduction of the number of systems. Together with Saab terms and conditions then have been agreed, concerning a reduction. Saab and the Government of Pakistan continue as planned with the delivery of the system.

As a result of the renegotiation, the order value is decreased by approximately SEK 1.35 billion [DID 8.3B - 1.35B = 6.95B, a 16.3% reduction and about $1 billion total at a May 28 conversion]. Income will decrease proportionally to the volume change, but other commercial terms and conditions will remain unchanged.&#8221;

The number of planes in the revised order was not specified. 
S2000-AEW renegotiation & reduction
June 22/06: Saab announces a SEK 8.3 billion (approx. $1.15 billion at then-rate conversion) provisional contract for Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) surveillance systems using Saab 2000 turboprops equipped with Ericsson&#8217;s Erieye radar.

According to earlier reports at Pakistani Defence , Pakistan aimed to buy 14 SAAB 2000 aircraft from Sweden: 7 for the PAF&#8217;s AEW&C role as Argus aircraft, and the remaining 7 for the state-owned PIA airline. Saab releases, however, have made no mention of a passenger version. It said only that:

&#8220;Two third of the order value is for Saab and one third for Ericsson Microwave Systems, witch is, after the Saab acquisition, expected to be a part of Saab in September 2006.&#8221; 
Initial Saab 2000-AEW Erieye order
Additional Readings

&#9632;Saab &#8211; Saab 200 ERIEYE AEW&C 

&#9632;Airforce Technology &#8211; Saab 2000 Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) Aircraft, Sweden 

&#9632;Sino-Defence &#8211; Yun-8 Rotodome Airborne Early Warning Aircraft . Also known as ZDK-03.

&#9632;Air Power Australia &#8211; AEW&C &#8211; Phased Array Technology: Parts 1 & 2 . Good general primer, last updated 2005.

&#9632;Pakistan Military Review (October 2012) &#8211; ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle AEW&C in Google Earth .

&#9632;Pakistan Military Review (November 2011) &#8211; Pakistani Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C at Dubai Air Show 2011 . The UAE bought a pair of similar Saab S340-AEW aircraft for its own use in 2009, and Saudi Arabia bought an S2000 in 2010.

&#9632;Flight International (Sept 11/09) &#8211; DSEi: Saab 2000 offered for maritime patrol, signals intelligence tasks 

&#9632;Flight International (April 30/08) &#8211; Saab scans AEW market for new Erieye buyers 

&#9632;Flight International (April 30/08) &#8211; PICTURES: Pakistan&#8217;s first Saab AEW&C system emerges 

&#9632;Aviation Week (Feb 13/08) &#8211; Low-Cost and Effective AEW Systems Find Buyers 

&#9632;DID &#8211; Indian AWACS Moving Forward on 2 Fronts. A large IL-76 Phalcon system, and a smaller system based on Embraer&#8217;s ERJ-145 regional jet, using a radar similar to the Erieye. As usual, India is insisting on local development, and so they&#8217;re fielding systems later than Pakistan.

Categories: Air Reconnaissance, Asia - Central, Asia - China, Contracts - Awards, Europe - Other, Events, Other Corporation, Radars, Specialty Aircraft

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## Sinnerman108

@fatman17

When and how did this happen ?



> Mar 06, 2013 12:12 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff Latest updates [?]: Pakistan's government comes clean, admits that a terrorist attack has destroyed 1 AWACS. Updates since 2008 include arrival of 4 Saab 2000 AWACS; Contract for 4 Chinese ZDK-03 "Karakorum Eagle" AWACS; Clarity re: Saab numbers, but not dollars; Article improvements, incl. added research links.

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## Bratva

salman108 said:


> @fatman17
> 
> When and how did this happen ?



Sari raat Heer ranjha sunaty rahy log, subha sulman nay poocha heer admi tha aurat.

Bro, A whole dedicated thread on this news can be found in this forum, where were you all the time?

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## fatman17

salman108 said:


> @fatman17
> 
> When and how did this happen ?



internal sources confirm this - the nose cone and cockpit were damaged beyond repair, rendering the entire a/c as a complete write-off.


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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> *internal sources confirm this *- the nose cone and cockpit were damaged beyond repair, rendering the entire a/c as a complete write-off.



And what official sources claim and where officially it is nose cone and cockpit were damaged beyond repair?


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## bigzgvr4

fatman17 said:


> internal sources confirm this - the nose cone and cockpit were damaged beyond repair, rendering the entire a/c as a complete write-off.


cant the put rest of the stuff on a chinese aircraft it will be good but wont be a saab aircraft


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## Sinnerman108

mafiya said:


> Sari raat Heer ranjha sunaty rahy log, subha sulman nay poocha heera admi tha aurat.
> 
> Bro, A whole dedicated thread on this news can be found in this forum, where were you all the time?





mafiya said:


> And what official sources claim and where officially it is nose cone and cockpit were damaged beyond repair?



It's the official response and it's source I was interested to find.



fatman17 said:


> internal sources confirm this - the nose cone and cockpit were damaged beyond repair, rendering the entire a/c as a complete write-off.



So as yet, we are dependent on internal sources.

The article is based on PAF coming clean ... which means it has to be done on paper after due diligence not to mention the subsequent action and punishing the slackers.


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## Bratva

salman108 said:


> It's the official response and it's source I was interested to find.
> 
> 
> 
> So as yet, we are dependent on internal sources.
> 
> The article is based on PAF coming clean ... which means it has to be done on paper after due diligence not to mention the subsequent action and punishing the slackers.



Sec Def in an open parliamentary session disclosed one SAAB aircraft totally destroyed on spot in Kamra base attack. The news came out on Feb 6. Hence officially the nose cone damage theory debunked and no PAF didn't come clean, it was SEC DEF who have to disclose this news infront of bloody civilians.

How do you miss that news and relevant discussions despite you being an active poster?

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-159025-Tax-payers-kept-in-the-dark-about-loss-of-plane-worth-$250m


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## Sinnerman108

mafiya said:


> Sec Def in an open parliamentary session disclosed one SAAB aircraft totally destroyed on spot in Kamra base attack. The news came out on Feb 6. Hence officially the nose cone damage theory debunked.
> 
> How do you miss that news and relevant discussions despite you being an active poster?
> 
> http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-159025-Tax-payers-kept-in-the-dark-about-loss-of-plane-worth-$250m



Obviousely not active enough ... and poster has another job to make money off.

Anyway ...Now that the cats' out of the bag, how is PAF going to take it ?

will the base commander be prosecuted / charged ?

Will the perimeter security guards be held acccountable for fleeing the scene ?

will the PAF top brass (joke) be charged for not putting enough money for a permenant fixed hanger for the awacs ?

I know the answer, but ask anyway.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

As I have told you people many a times---PAF is filled up with traitors. They have deceived the country many a times---.

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## muse

salman108 said:


> ...Now that the cats' out of the bag, how is PAF going to take it ? will the base commander be prosecuted / charged ? Will the perimeter security guards be held acccountable for fleeing the scene ? will the PAF top brass (joke) be charged for not putting enough money for a permenant fixed hanger for the awacs ? I know the answer, but ask anyway.



Sorry to say that we all know the answer -- we honor these people, and are repaid in this shabby manner where we cannot even expect them to do their duty -- but then we are more interested in Iman, Taqwa and Jihad, not Duty, Patriotism and Professionalism.

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## Jango

salman108 said:


> will the base commander be prosecuted / charged ?
> 
> .



Last I heard...he was recommended for early retirement with some of his benefits taken away or something like that.


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## Amaa'n

salman108 said:


> Obviousely not active enough ... and poster has another job to make money off.
> 
> Anyway ...Now that the cats' out of the bag, how is PAF going to take it ?
> 
> will the base commander be prosecuted / charged ?
> 
> Will the perimeter security guards be held acccountable for fleeing the scene ?
> 
> will the PAF top brass (joke) be charged for not putting enough money for a permenant fixed hanger for the awacs ?
> 
> I know the answer, but ask anyway.


Don't expect the PAF's vigilant force or the security personnel to do much, because all they carry is a G-3 with only one mag, I last i checked 20 bullets fired from an inaccurate rifle are not enough to hold back the terrorits.......some of the guards might have a spare mag but that is all they are carried.

However since the attacks, JCOs and NCOs on the techincal side are also given training on firing a handgun. And when they start a shift they are issued a pistol which has to be returned at the end of the shift.....


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## Capt.Popeye

nuclearpak said:


> Last I heard...he was recommended for early retirement with some of his benefits taken away or something like that.



If that was done, then it was appropriate; because 'dereliction of duty' at various levels is apparent. Though at that time; many here on PDF felt that he was fit for decoration, for leading from the front. 
As one moves up the ladder, one gets increasingly tasked to ensure that one's subordinates perform optimally at all times. At AOC level, if one has to fall into the 'rough and tumble' of things: it means that the system has collapsed or that the situation is desperate. 
Neither is a circumstance to be looked forward to!

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## Amaa'n

nuclearpak said:


> Last I heard...he was recommended for early retirement with some of his benefits taken away or something like that.



last I checked Base commandar was even caught in the attack by mistake and simply ran away by driving the jeep in reverse.......and amazed how he was portrayed as a hero next day.....
the DSG who got martyred while defending, called for help for 20 mins and no one listened to him......because some of our Jawans were 

I wonder what are they trying to achieve with this......


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## Jango

balixd said:


> last I checked Base commandar was even caught in the attack by mistake and simply ran away by driving the jeep in reverse.......and amazed how he was portrayed as a hero next day.....
> the DSG who got martyred while defending, called for help for 20 mins and no one listened to him......because some of our Jawans were



Yup...if he got shot in the arm it doesn't mean that he becomes a hero automatically. He went out when all was lost!!!


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## fatman17

*accident report update.*

august 16, 2012.

the PAF/3 Squadron Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C aircraft that was damaged by shrapnel from an exploding rocket-propelled grenade which struck the wall of the hanger in which it was parked during a militant attack on PAF Base Kamra-Minhas in the early hours of the morning has been declared a write-off. Previous reports had suggested it was repairable, however. on February 6, 2013, Pakistan Defence Secretary told a meeting of Pakistan's National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence that the aircraft had been destroyed in the attack.
AFM

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## Fieldmarshal

now members on the forum owe me and a few other members an apology as our stand from day one has been proved right!!!

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## fatman17

*Pakistan Air Force Saab 2000 AEW&C Support Contract*

Posted on: March 21st, 2013

The first Pakistan Air Force Saab 2000 AEW&C during pre-delivery flight-testing.

Saab was awarded a support contract for the type today by an unspecified nation, which must be Pakistan, as the only current operator of the type.

Saab DEFENCE AND security company Saab today signed an SEK1.1 billion ($169 million) support contract for a Saab 2000 AEW&C (airborne early warning and control) system already in service with an undisclosed nation. Although the company did not identify the country involved, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is the only air arm currently operating the type. All other Erieye systems on Saab aircraft are on the smaller Saab 340.

The PAF has taken delivery of four Saab 2000 AEW&C aircraft, which entered service with 3 Squadron at PAF Base Kamra-Minhas from December 2009. One aircraft was, however, damaged beyond repair on August 16, 2012, when militants fired a rocket-propelled grenade at 3 Squadron&#8217;s hangar. At the time it was thought to be repairable, but on February 6, 2013, Pakistan&#8217;s Defense Secretary confirmed that it had been destroyed in the attack.

The new support contract covers a comprehensive set of spares and support services for the system, which comprises of the Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system and ground equipment.

&#8220;Our support contract is a result of our close co-operation with our customer and can be seen as a further confirmation of our strong capability to provide our customers with advanced service and support solutions&#8221;, says Gunilla Fransson, Head of Saab&#8217;s Security and Defense Solutions business. 

AFD-Dave Allport



Fieldmarshal said:


> now members on the forum owe me and a few other members an apology as our stand from day one has been proved right!!!



for what !!!!!!!!!

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## Imran Khan

($169 million) ?? big amount means damaged will be repaired in this contract sir?


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## PakShaheen79

Well, I have a major concern from another angle over these developments.

An RPG hit the wall of the hanger and aircraft placed inside was destroyed ( as admitted by officials). 

Now, how much these hangers would be able to hold in real war. Any idea/comment/ suggestion. I am not implying anything here but just want to know if my concern about structural strength of these hangers hold any weight or I am completely missing something here.

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## fatman17

PakShaheen79 said:


> Well, I have a major concern from another angle over these developments.
> 
> An RPG hit the wall of the hanger and aircraft placed inside was destroyed ( as admitted by officials).
> 
> Now, how much these hangers would be able to hold in real war. Any idea/comment/ suggestion. I am not implying anything here but just want to know if my concern about structural strength of these hangers hold any weight or I am completely missing something here.



they are not hardened shelters - in war time these assets will be dispersed elsewhere



Imran Khan said:


> ($169 million) ?? big amount means damaged will be repaired in this contract sir?



nope! this contract also includes spares - lots of them!

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## muse

fatman17 said:


> *accident report update.*
> 
> august 16, 2012.
> 
> the PAF/3 Squadron Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C aircraft that was damaged by shrapnel from an exploding rocket-propelled grenade which struck the wall of the hanger in which it was parked during a militant attack on PAF Base Kamra-Minhas in the early hours of the morning has been declared a write-off. Previous reports had suggested it was repairable, however. on February 6, 2013, Pakistan Defence Secretary told a meeting of Pakistan's National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence that the aircraft had been destroyed in the attack.
> AFM




The ship was a write off but what about the radar and electronics in the ship? Were they also destroyed?


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## fatman17

now if PAF is smart, they would / should assume they are in a 'war-like' situation and all such expensive force-multiplyers should be dispersed already. it will cost extra for this but not as expensive as losing a complete platform.

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## Imran Khan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Well, I have a major concern from another angle over these developments.
> 
> An RPG hit the wall of the hanger and aircraft placed inside was destroyed ( as admitted by officials).
> 
> Now, how much these hangers would be able to hold in real war. Any idea/comment/ suggestion. I am not implying anything here but just want to know if my concern about structural strength of these hangers hold any weight or I am completely missing something here.




they are as any other airforce hangers sir jee there is huge difrrence between hangers and bunkers . 

we can see here other air forces hangers .they are not for defence but as shelter only .maximum you can expect water proof shelters .

look at the hanger of world most expensive jet . a 9mm bullet can even penetrate in it 











SU-30 hangers





look at the roof clear sheets for sun shine used here in Awacs hanger

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## fatman17

imran bhai aap ki kiya baat hai!!!

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## Capt.Popeye

Imran Khan said:


> they are as any other airforce hangers sir jee there is huge difrrence between hangers and bunkers .
> 
> we can see here other air forces hangers .they are not for defence but as shelter only .maximum you can expect water proof shelters .
> 
> look at the hanger of world most expensive jet . a 9mm bullet can even penetrate in it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SU-30 hangers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> look at the roof clear sheets for sun shine used here in Awacs hanger



None of those Air Forces and Countries have Taliban targeting their Air Assets, @Imran Khan. 
So they can make do with those "tin-sheds".

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## Argus Panoptes

Imran Khan said:


> they are as any other airforce hangers sir jee there is huge difrrence between hangers and bunkers .
> 
> we can see here other air forces hangers .they are not for defence but as shelter only .maximum you can expect water proof shelters .
> 
> look at the hanger of world most expensive jet . a 9mm bullet can even penetrate in it ...............



True, but they also have a perimeter fence that is properly patrolled and defended, and the whole airbase is not surrounded by villages and garbage dumps right outside.

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## Safriz

muse said:


> The ship was a write off but what about the radar and electronics in the ship? Were they also destroyed?



Exactly.
The slug from a shaped charge couldnt have destroyed the ship as it wasnt a direct hit.
Written off because all ships were bought second hand and may not be a feasible repair.
The Erirye system was bought new and was the main expensive component...If that is 'salvsgable' or not...no news yet.

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## Capt.Popeye

muse said:


> The ship was a write off but what about the radar and electronics in the ship? Were they also destroyed?



If the damage was caused by exploding shrapnel; then there is some hope-even of some salvage.
If the damage was caused by fire and flame; not much hope.
If I remember correctly (from the thread on the attack as it happened) there were contempareneous reports of a fire and of a billowing plume of smoke, then that points to the more discouraging second possibility-of a complete write-off. 
"Fried" Electronics are of no use.

N.B. one of our members here (@WindJammer) attributed the fire to burning grass. But we now know that impossibility has been conclusively accounted for!

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## muse

So the line about shrapnel is more than likely bogus --- I find it very curious that a single RPG was so accurate that it was fired from the outside and yet managed to do the damage it did -- I really do think that PAF have done the nation and it's credibility great harm by not being forthright about the event.

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## Viper0011.

fatman17 said:


> *accident report update.*
> 
> august 16, 2012.
> 
> the PAF/3 Squadron Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C aircraft that was damaged by shrapnel from an exploding rocket-propelled grenade which struck the wall of the hanger in which it was parked during a militant attack on PAF Base Kamra-Minhas in the early hours of the morning has been declared a write-off. Previous reports had suggested it was repairable, however. on February 6, 2013, Pakistan Defence Secretary told a meeting of Pakistan's National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence that the aircraft had been destroyed in the attack.
> AFM




I had written on it before. The plane was damaged and assessed the damage on. However, the cost of repair would exceed the cost of procuring another used airframe as the airframe was discontinued. The whole jet wasn't destroyed but it was a write off as the cost of repairs was too much compared to acquiring a used airframe and the avionics. In other words, it took out the ''affordability" option due to the used airframes. Saab had discontinued this airframe so it would cost even MORE to do any repairs.

Plus, PAF wants cheaper and affordable options. A post delivery warranty or 'replacement' plan was never purchased as no one thought these planes will be destroyed in a terrorist attack. That happened so now PAF went back and purchased this warranty and replacement plan. Otherwise, the cost to repair another one in the similar situation would make it too much in the future and that would be another write off. This is precisely how the Western businesses work. You ALWAYS buy insurance and extended product warranty with the product. Forget about jets and AWACS, go down to a much smaller item, a laptop. When you buy it from Dell and drop it or break it, you have to buy a new one or the repair cost is beyond the original price of the laptop. However if you paid like $ 200 extra to purchase accidental warranty, the replacement laptop or the repairs to the broken one will be free under the accident support contract. Why the heck PAF forgot to purchase those for such expensive defense articles? It is BEYOND me!

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## Bratva

orangzaib said:


> I had written on it before. The plane was damaged and assessed the damage on. However, the cost of repair would exceed the cost of procuring another used airframe as the airframe was discontinued. The whole jet wasn't destroyed but it was a write off as the cost of repairs was too much compared to acquiring a used airframe and the avionics. In other words, it took out the ''affordability" option due to the used airframes. Saab had discontinued this airframe so it would cost even MORE to do any repairs.
> 
> Plus, PAF wants cheaper and affordable options. A post delivery warranty or 'replacement' plan was never purchased as no one thought these planes will be destroyed in a terrorist attack. That happened so now PAF went back and purchased this warranty and replacement plan. Otherwise, the cost to repair another one in the similar situation would make it too much in the future and that would be another write off. This is precisely how the Western businesses work. You ALWAYS buy insurance and extended product warranty with the product. Forget about jets and AWACS, go down to a much smaller item, a laptop. When you buy it from Dell and drop it or break it, you have to buy a new one or the repair cost is beyond the original price of the laptop. However if you paid like $ 200 extra to purchase accidental warranty, the replacement laptop or the repairs to the broken one will be free under the accident support contract. Why the heck PAF forgot to purchase those for such expensive defense articles? It is BEYOND me!



It's all a lie it was declared damaged beyond repair, I challenge you to find one statment of PAF or ISPR in which they AWAC is damaged beyond repair and it is written off. If we read the original Sec DEF statment, he said it was completly destroyed on spot and in December 2012, Sec DEF said they were seeking a replacement of this destroyed AWAC

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## Capt.Popeye

muse said:


> So the line about shrapnel is more than likely bogus --- I find it very curious that a single RPG was so accurate that it was fired from the outside and yet managed to do the damage it did -- I really do think that PAF have done the nation and it's credibility great harm by not being forthright about the event.



Sadly, that is true. The PAF; if it had been more upfront. would have gained both support and sympathy. It could have been used as a reason to galvanise public opinion against the perpetrators of these targeted attacks. A physical set-back could have been turned into a PR benefit, in the war against terror. 
Instead the PAF may have gained the reputation of being both incompetent and devious.

*About Warranties!!*
There is some line of thought being propagated here that the damage (or the effects thereof) could have been prevented or precluded by taking a warranty/insurance against damage.
This was a warplane to be used in wars/conflicts. The only warranty that the manufacture can and will give is against operating failures or damage to equipment components. All the rest is _force majeure_ so far as Saab or Ericsson are concerned, therefore not liable to cover. Neither will they extend that cover now. For love or for money.
 @orangzaib; you are being either too naive or ignorant, if you believe that such damage can be covered by commercial warranty or insurance or replacement plan. This is no computer or TV or HiFi for home use. Nor was it bought from Walmart or Office Depot. This was not even accidental damage!

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## Argus Panoptes

muse said:


> The ship was a write off but what about the radar and electronics in the ship? Were they also destroyed?



A few parts might be salvageable, but it might be not feasible to remove, recondition and reuse those parts compared to more easily obtainable spares.



muse said:


> So the line about shrapnel is more than likely bogus --- I find it very curious that a single RPG was so accurate that it was fired from the outside and yet managed to do the damage it did -- I really do think that PAF have done the nation and it's credibility great harm by not being forthright about the event.



It depends on the type of damage. 

Shrapnel can be very destructive, causing irreparable damage to bulkheads, spars, complex wiring bundles and hydraulic lines. Some of that damage cannot be properly assessed short of tearing apart the whole airframe, piece by piece, which may not be feasible since many components are not designed to be pulled apart after initial manufacture. Such a detailed breakdown requires specialized facilities and expertise which is likely not available in Pakistan, and contracting out such work would simply be outrageously expensive.

So yes, one RPG can destroy a plane from its shrapnel.


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## Imran Khan

Capt.Popeye said:


> None of those Air Forces and Countries have Taliban targeting their Air Assets, @Imran Khan.
> So they can make do with those "tin-sheds".



wrong again just look the list of attacks on airbases . its happen hundreds times recently do you guys forget harrier jests and USarmy chief planes destroyed in afg?



Argus Panoptes said:


> True, but they also have a perimeter fence that is properly patrolled and defended, and the whole airbase is not surrounded by villages and garbage dumps right outside.



what you think PAF do nothing to protect them ? abut garbage dumps and villages PAF only car write again and again to civil authorities they can't demolish or stop them to live there.


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## Argus Panoptes

Imran Khan said:


> ....
> 
> 
> what you think PAF do nothing to protect them ? abut garbage dumps and villages PAF only car write again and again to civil authorities they can't demolish or stop them to live there.



I agree with you that PAF is doing what it can to protect its assets, but its own limitations and the constraints imposed by civilian issues like overpopulation and poor governance means that those assets remain vulnerable. My point is that the risk to costly assets is still there.


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## Imran Khan

Argus Panoptes said:


> I agree with you that PAF is doing what it can to protect its assets, but its own limitations and the constraints imposed by civilian issues like overpopulation and poor governance means that those assets remain vulnerable. My point is that the risk to costly assets is still there.



and yes sure they have planes for move air bases away from cities but funds issues are still there so we have to wait . no one in PAF PN like to see their planes damage but what they can do in front of a bloody enemy who want to die . they are doing what they should do .

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## fatman17

*Saab announces Saab 2000 Erieye maintenance contract*:

Author:
James Hardy, London Section:

Last posted:
2013-03-22


Saab has signed a five-year, SEK1,100 (USD170 million) contract to support its Saab 2000 Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) aircraft in service with an unidentified international customer, the company announced on 21 March. 

Saab rolled out the first Saab 2000 AW&EC Erieye aircraft for Pakistan in March 2008. It was delivered in December 2009. (Saab) 

The contract includes "a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a previously delivered system ... equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system and ground equipment", Saab said in a statement. 

While the Erieye radar system has been fitted to several platforms, including the Saab 340 and Embraer 145, for eight customers, Pakistan is the only international military customer for the Saab 2000. 

Pakistan received the first of four aircraft in December 2009. The second arrived in April 2010, the third in late 2010, and the final aircraft in April 2011. They are operated by No. 13 Squadron at Minhas air base, although one aircraft is believed to have been damaged during a terrorist attack on the base in August 2012. 

The Erieye features an electronic warfare suite that includes electronic support, threat warning and countermeasures dispensing subsystems, an identification friend or foe subsystem, command and control capabilities, and a ground-based mission trainer. Although it can communicate with the PAF's Lockheed Martin F-16s via a data link, this is not compatible with the force's Dassault Mirage fleet. 

jdw

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## Imran Khan

seems like they are making a unit for protect SAAB?????

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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> seems like they are making a unit for protect SAAB?????



Maybe just an airman having a go...base security is job of DSG, there is a reason we have it. I wouldnt look too much into this pic.

BTW, is a MP5 going to be effective that far against a fully loaded militant? I really dont think so, unless you get him on the face!


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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> Maybe just an airman having a go...base security is job of DSG, there is a reason we have it. I wouldnt look too much into this pic.
> 
> BTW, is a MP5 going to be effective that far against a fully loaded militant? I really dont think so, unless you get him on the face!



Moreover, the MP5 is a CQB weapon.. the bullet falls flat within 600-800m.. That will have no effect on a vest equipped militant.
The UMP45 would make more sense, or an AK.
But the Mp5 corruption saga is another story.

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## Jango

Oscar said:


> Moreover, the MP5 is a CQB weapon.. the bullet falls flat within 600-800m.. That will have no effect on a vest equipped militant.
> The UMP45 would make more sense, or an AK.
> But the Mp5 corruption saga is another story.



Exactly...the army changed the standard sentry weapon to type 56 a few years back, and the place where we were living, the whole cantt changed to type 56 in days. But after a recent visit to Karachi, it seems MP 5 is still used on a larger scale for gate security etc, atleast in Karachi.

And to the other members, can we please drop this "repair not feasible" and "damage assessment took too long" mantra? Lets not kid ourselves and fool ourselves just to have a little good feeling. Dil behlanay wali bat na karain.

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## razgriz19

Imran Khan said:


> ($169 million) ?? big amount means damaged will be repaired in this contract sir?



no its just to provide support and service for the other 3 or so remaining aircrafts.

Saab signs support contract for airborne surveillance system

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## Viper0011.

Capt.Popeye said:


> @orangzaib; you are being either too naive or ignorant, if you believe that such damage can be covered by commercial warranty or insurance or replacement plan. This is no computer or TV or HiFi for home use. Nor was it bought from Walmart or Office Depot. This was not even accidental damage!



Ok dude, you had to put the Walmart's and Office Depots in there. I kind of saw it coming by some Indian member here. It had to be lucky you. I know ABSOLUTELY for a fact that there is ALWAYS a product support warranty post delivery, offered and negotiated. That counts for Spare parts, Defense contractor services in the event of product failure, accidents, etc. Why do you think the US has put restrictions on Pakistan on as to where the F-16 B-52 needed to be parked at, how the infrastructure needs to be, how they can be used? What trump card do you think they hold? The Maintenance and Spare warranties post delivery. Pakistan can't support a complete F-16 B-52 overhaul and it requires US DoD's assistance. So....that is the bargaining chip. Plus it offers cheaper options to the clients buying equipment. So if you don't know how something specific works, you shouldn't bring Walmart, Office Depot in without understanding the context. If you don't have a background in government related procurements, then you should stay silent than making yourself looking pretty silly IMO.

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## Jango

orangzaib said:


> Ok dude, you had to put the Walmart's and Office Depots in there. I kind of saw it coming by some Indian member here. It had to be lucky you. I know ABSOLUTELY for a fact that there is ALWAYS a product support warranty post delivery, offered and negotiated. That counts for Spare parts, Defense contractor services in the event of product failure, accidents, etc. Why do you think the US has put restrictions on Pakistan on as to where the F-16 B-52 needed to be parked at, how the infrastructure needs to be, how they can be used? What trump card do you think they hold? The Maintenance and Spare warranties post delivery. Pakistan can't support a complete F-16 B-52 overhaul and it requires US DoD's assistance. So....that is the bargaining chip. Plus it offers cheaper options to the clients buying equipment. So if you don't know how something specific works, you shouldn't bring Walmart, Office Depot in without understanding the context. If you don't have a background in government related procurements, then you should stay silent than making yourself looking pretty silly IMO.



It is actually you who is looking silly here. You even mentioned explicitly that there is a *spare part, defense contractor service in event of failure or accident....*

Spare part contracts and maintenance contracts are always there in place for the PAF...from the OEM and as well as third party companies. 

But no contract, absolutely no contract covers the blowing up of plane through any 'warranty or guarantee'. 

And how exactly is the F-16 a suitable example here? Their parking spot, support infrastructure, maint routines etc are to maximize the effectiveness of the platform and reduce wear and tear. The F-16 example has absolutely no link with a Saab 2000 being blown up.

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## Safriz

Guys stop fighting...
Aircraft written off doesnt mean erieye destroyed...
Aircrafts were the cheapest and most abundantly available components of the system..
Many have said since long that SAAB has agreed 'in principal' to install the erieye fro damaged plane to another plane...
Even The damaged plane isnt a total .loss...will do good as an instant and available source of spares.


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## Fieldmarshal

for the last time !!!

*The a/c was a total loss *......nothing other than the landing gears and the vertical stabilizer were recovered.

I told u this than i am telling it to u now. 
First u guys would not believe few of us who were reporting the loss of an awacs and instead were ridiculing and now when the truth is out most members are again being delusional and finding excuses rather than except the ground reality.

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## Jango

Safriz said:


> Guys stop fighting...
> Aircraft written off doesnt mean erieye destroyed...
> Aircrafts were the cheapest and most abundantly available components of the system..
> Many have said since long that SAAB has agreed 'in principal' to install the erieye fro damaged plane to another plane...
> Even The damaged plane isnt a total .loss...will do good as an instant and available source of spares.



Let's not make posts just for saving face...not that it makes any difference to me.

First you guys ridiculed us for saying that Saab was destroyed, and now when it has come out, people are trying to make up silly excuses.

Can we please accept the facts as they are and *move on*?

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## Imran Khan

Fieldmarshal said:


> for the last time !!!
> 
> *The a/c was a total loss *......nothing other than the landing gears and the vertical stabilizer were recovered.
> 
> I told u this than i am telling it to u now.
> First u guys would not believe few of us who were reporting the loss of an awacs and instead were ridiculing and now when the truth is out most members are again being delusional and finding excuses rather than except the ground reality.



OK we got you but saab is not destroyed that what we believe tata .


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## Viper0011.

nuclearpak said:


> It is actually you who is looking silly here. You even mentioned explicitly that there is a *spare part, defense contractor service in event of failure or accident....*
> But no contract, absolutely no contract covers the blowing up of plane through any 'warranty or guarantee'.
> 
> And how exactly is the F-16 a suitable example here? Their parking spot, support infrastructure, maint routines etc are to maximize the effectiveness of the platform and reduce wear and tear. The F-16 example has absolutely no link with a Saab 2000 being blown up.



The aircraft wasn't blown up. I know this for a FACT!. No RPG 'blows up' the aircraft. The MAX it can do, is to hit the fuel tanks or parts of some sensitive areas with Oil and start a FIRE. The RPG isn't a bunker busting bomb. Just to clarify so you are incorrect that the plane was blown up. It was severely damaged due to fire. For which, if the right contract was in place, the manufacturer would remove the significant components (Radars, Workstations and Avionics) for a MUCH cheaper price and would've put them on another platform. But, since there was no contract like the accidental one in place.....the cost now would exceed the actual cost of CHEAPER Saab 2000 airframes. THAT's the reality. Unless you know facts, you don't need to come back and counter as if you know the reality. I think I do and that's why I am saying what I am saying! I can even tell you who was the first team to assess the damage outside of the airport staff!! I'll leave it at that. I don't blow thin air out of my as*. I ONLY speak when I know the facts.

Three questions and then I rest my case and won't write on this topic again:
1) You've said things very confidently above (quoted). Have you actually read the contract between Saab and the PAF? And read PROVISIONS around 'Natural and Unnatural' accidents other than war???
2) Do you know that the F-16 B-52 are kept at a certain airbase because of the maximum potential of the fleet? Actually, it was a US demand to keep them there so that they be monitored by the American personnel and sensors!

The F-16 example was a fit as the PAF DOES have a contract with the USAF around the unnatural - natural disasters, repairs and support services contractors. In case of a need, you'll be getting the US contractors to help fix or actually fix things. Last but not least, in case of violating the contract (parking, usage, etc, etc) you will be SANCTIONED. Which means, essentially your F-16 B-52 fleet will not have spars, etc like the good old 90's. That's the reality. There is no such thing as 'maximum effectiveness of the fleet). We don't trust you guys with advanced equipment as you give it to the Chinese and we have a right to put controls to ensure either stuff doesn't get to the Chinese or the Terrorists. Both are against US's interests. The locations was chosed for that reason and strict monitoring (even on the flight hours) is conducted by the US personnel). THAT"s the importance of contracts. You are obligated to honor them and in need, they'll honor their part. That's the point I was trying to make!


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## Argus Panoptes

nuclearpak said:


> Let's not make posts just for saving face...not that it makes any difference to me.
> 
> First you guys ridiculed us for saying that Saab was destroyed, and now when it has come out, people are trying to make up silly excuses.
> 
> Can we please accept the facts as they are and *move on*?



The degree of damage is not the important thing, whether it is minimal or horrendous. The important thing is that there was an attack, which resulted in one precious airplane being unavailable for its intended mission as a force multiplier. What we need to do now is to prevent any more attacks, and to plug the gap in our capabilities as quickly as possible. After all, mistakes do happen, but the lessons learned will ensure that more similar mistakes are prevented.

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## Jango

orangzaib said:


> The aircraft wasn't blown up. I know this for a FACT!. No RPG 'blows up' the aircraft. The MAX it can do, is to hit the fuel tanks or parts of some sensitive areas with Oil and start a FIRE. The RPG isn't a bunker busting bomb. Just to clarify so you are incorrect that the plane was blown up. It was severely damaged due to fire. For which, if the right contract was in place, the manufacturer would remove the significant components (Radars, Workstations and Avionics) for a MUCH cheaper price and would've put them on another platform. But, since there was no contract like the accidental one in place.....the cost now would exceed the actual cost of CHEAPER Saab 2000 airframes. THAT's the reality. Unless you know facts, you don't need to come back and counter as if you know the reality. I think I do and that's why I am saying what I am saying! I can even tell you who was the first team to assess the damage outside of the airport staff!! I'll leave it at that. I don't blow thin air out of my as*. I ONLY speak when I know the facts.
> 
> Three questions and then I rest my case and won't write on this topic again:
> 1) You've said things very confidently above (quoted). Have you actually read the contract between Saab and the PAF? And read PROVISIONS around 'Natural and Unnatural' accidents other than war???
> 2) Do you know that the F-16 B-52 are kept at a certain airbase because of the maximum potential of the fleet? Actually, it was a US demand to keep them there so that they be monitored by the American personnel and sensors!
> 
> The F-16 example was a fit as the PAF DOES have a contract with the USAF around the unnatural - natural disasters, repairs and support services contractors. In case of a need, you'll be getting the US contractors to help fix or actually fix things. Last but not least, in case of violating the contract (parking, usage, etc, etc) you will be SANCTIONED. Which means, essentially your F-16 B-52 fleet will not have spars, etc like the good old 90's. That's the reality. There is no such thing as 'maximum effectiveness of the fleet). We don't trust you guys with advanced equipment as you give it to the Chinese and we have a right to put controls to ensure either stuff doesn't get to the Chinese or the Terrorists. Both are against US's interests. The locations was chosed for that reason and strict monitoring (even on the flight hours) is conducted by the US personnel). THAT"s the importance of contracts. You are obligated to honor them and in need, they'll honor their part. That's the point I was trying to make!



Whatever you want to believe sir...whatever you want to believe.

Atleast you agreed with the 'fire' part. That's a start!

BTW, where's the third question?!

And finally, yet again, the F-16 case has no bearing or relevance to the Saabs. The F-16 is there is Jacobabad because of tight US restrictions on 24/7 overwatch. The post which I quoted in the first post has no mention of overwatch on the planes or anything, you were discussing the case through the tech and maint side...regarding the contract.

And just as you..I am also tired of repeating the same old mantra again and again. If some people wanna keep living in a false dream...go ahead...hey folks...all Saabs are well and good...happy now? I ain't talking through my as* either, otherwise I wouldn't have been saying what I have since the morning of the attack!

Consider this my last post on this topic.

Good day.



Argus Panoptes said:


> The degree of damage is not the important thing, whether it is minimal or horrendous. The important thing is that there was an attack, which resulted in one precious airplane being unavailable for its intended mission as a force multiplier. What we need to do now is to prevent any more attacks, and to plug the gap in our capabilities as quickly as possible. After all, mistakes do happen, but the lessons learned will ensure that more similar mistakes are prevented.



Exactly...let's move on.

GHQ happened, fair enough it was the first time, security was lax. Mehran happened, we are totally screwed, stupid on our part. Kamra happened, we are in deep shyte. An attack on Peshawar happened, great job by the security agencies, the terrorists were killed on the point of entry, no damage done.

Lessons should be learnt and implemented.

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## Bratva

Imran Khan said:


> OK we got you but saab is not destroyed that what we believe tata .





Safriz said:


> Guys stop fighting...
> Aircraft written off doesnt mean erieye destroyed...
> Aircrafts were the cheapest and most abundantly available components of the system..
> Many have said since long that SAAB has agreed 'in principal' to install the erieye fro damaged plane to another plane...
> Even The damaged plane isnt a total .loss...will do good as an instant and available source of spares.




So provide your facts on which bases you believe that Erieye and associated aircraft was not destroyed completely?


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## SQ8

Somewhere in the middle, the "rooh" of the SAAB is wandering between its body and the afterlife.
Its clear it is no longer going to be of any use, yet it cannot be allowed to die.


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## Viper0011.

nuclearpak said:


> Whatever you want to believe sir...whatever you want to believe.
> 
> Atleast you agreed with the 'fire' part. That's a start!
> 
> BTW, where's the third question?!
> 
> And finally, yet again, the F-16 case has no bearing or relevance to the Saabs. The F-16 is there is Jacobabad because of tight US restrictions on 24/7 overwatch. The post which I quoted in the first post has no mention of overwatch on the planes or anything, you were discussing the case through the tech and maint side...regarding the contract.



1) I never disagreed with the fire part. I am just explaining to you what actually happened. With all due respect, from your post, you may know about operational military. But you have absolutely no clue or experience about defense contracts. I can guarantee it just by reading your posts. No offense. 

2) The F-16 example was a fit as to SHOW the IMPORTANCE of these contracts. That the US exercises so much influence on when these planes can be even used (Defensive Nature ONLY) and all parties have to mutually agree and honor commitments. Ensuring the flights and tech is safe per the US requirements, the NEXT provision of the contract is then executed. I.E. to provide ongoing spares, maintenance, knowledge base, contractors, etc. Now, if there are provisions in there about accidental damage outside of a war....the US will honor that. NOW, apply the same logic to Saab. If the contract had INCLUDED terms for accidental damage, maintenance, support and potentially a replacement at a discounted price.....you'd have seen the same destroyed Saab being replaced by another airframe. The RPG didn't hit the Cylinder on the top and nor did it hit the extensive nature of sensors all around the plane. So there was expensive stuff that could've been salvaged. Here's a scenario or an example that's as real as it gets:
1) Organization A buys planes from manufacturer 'D'. They discuss and approve provisions around accidental - Non-War related damage, service and replacement. In a case where Terrorists target these assets, the 'D' manufacturer will provide additional airframes at 30% discount (if you don't need these, the money goes to waste and they keep it). Plus, the 'D' manufacturer will provide labor / contractors to salvage the plane at $ 60 an hour rate per person. If these provisions weren't added to the contract, the replacement airframe would be at 100% cost and the labor cost will be $ 125 per person per hour. If you take this example, without accidental provisions, the cost of salvaging becomes exponential (specially when Organization A is already buying cheap - used planes due to budget reasons), so the cost of salvaging goes so HIGH that you might as well buy a new airframe and a new Radar. Spending 30 million to Salvage and get another used system or getting a brand new system for $ 40 million....what would you do? I'd do the brand new system for $ 40 mill as the salvaged system upon reconfiguration will STILL have issues as its rebuilt. Hope this helps. I am done with this topic. Discussion should happen either in a knowledge gaining mode or with someone at the same level. If others are too busy with their egos, its no fun. So I am out.


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## Imran Khan

mafiya said:


> So provide your facts on which bases you believe that Erieye and associated aircraft was not destroyed completely?



why should we ? we believe what we believe because we got four and we have four. if you have any proof it was destroyed show us image of wreckage


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## Donatello

So one confirm SAAB Erieye loss?


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## SQ8

I suggest you guys are fighting over this a long time. Ill be taking a trip home and will try to dig in to what happened to it.
Till then, those who believe its destroyed believe that and vice-versa. Lets not waste any more space on a debate that has no end.

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## fatman17

its the masacist nature of some members to continue....continue.....continue.....


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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> its the masacist nature of some members to continue....continue.....continue.....



The meeting was chaired by President Zardari&#8217;s sister, Azra Fazal Pechuho, as the chairperson of the 18-member Committee. Responding to a question by Ayaz Ameer, one of the Standing Committee members, Rear Admiral Farrokh Ahmad conceded that a Saab-2000 AWACS which was parked at the Minhas airbase was completely destroyed by &#8220;miscreants&#8221; when the Kamra came under attack.

When asked by Ayaz Ameer to further enlighten the Committee on the issue, Secretary Defence Lt Gen (R) Asif Yaseen Malik admitted that one fourth early warning ability of the PAF was knocked out by the raiders with the ruining of one of the four Swedish-made Saab-2000 planes.

But the secretary defence did not respond to Ayaz&#8217;s query about the actual loss suffered by the national kitty due to the ruining of Saab-2000 AWACS

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-159025-Tax-payers-kept-in-the-dark-about-loss-of-plane-worth-$250m
@Imran Khan


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## fatman17

mafiya said:


> The meeting was chaired by President Zardari&#8217;s sister, Azra Fazal Pechuho, as the chairperson of the 18-member Committee. Responding to a question by Ayaz Ameer, one of the Standing Committee members, Rear Admiral Farrokh Ahmad conceded that a Saab-2000 AWACS which was parked at the Minhas airbase was completely destroyed by &#8220;miscreants&#8221; when the Kamra came under attack.
> 
> When asked by Ayaz Ameer to further enlighten the Committee on the issue, Secretary Defence Lt Gen (R) Asif Yaseen Malik admitted that one fourth early warning ability of the PAF was knocked out by the raiders with the ruining of one of the four Swedish-made Saab-2000 planes.
> 
> But the secretary defence did not respond to Ayaz&#8217;s query about the actual loss suffered by the national kitty due to the ruining of Saab-2000 AWACS
> 
> http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-159025-Tax-payers-kept-in-the-dark-about-loss-of-plane-worth-$250m



so..........!


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## Jango

orangzaib said:


> ... I am done with this topic. Discussion should happen either in a knowledge gaining mode or with someone at the same level. If others are too busy with their egos, its no fun. So I am out.



I was done with the topic months back!!! Let's move on...

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> I was done with the topic months back!!! Let's move on...



precisely my point....


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## raahaat7

Yes! Indigenisation is the only way forward for pakistan. And it should make most of its friendship with china. Who knows what the future holds for them. As they say, there are no permanent friends or enemies in politics.


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## Viper0011.

nuclearpak said:


> I was done with the topic months back!!! Let's move on...



You didn't have to write this if you were really done. Second, debate is good. Forcing your opinion on others isn't. 
But let's move on....


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## Argus Panoptes

I would love to see a flypast of all four Saab Erieyes on Air Force Day. That would be decisive.


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## problemfreeleader

*Hope and InshALLAH soon we see when pakistan will also be having Naval base with a harbor and a runway Naval Station with air craft carrier war ships?? Missile shields ??And nuclear capable missiles with multiple war heads which can easily penetrate through enemy missile shields? And to test Satellite control ICBM missiles ? Anti drone laser weapons capable of shooting UAV capability of Drone detection and jamming signals destroy & intercept satellite signals to specific equipment using unencrypted data laser's beam to shoot down a drone traveling as fast as 600 miles per hour tracking the drones with sensors used and destroying the aircraft using a high-powered, fiber-optic laser capability to detect, track, engage and defeat dynamic targets at tactically significant ranges?*


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## muse

When it decides to respect itself

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## Jango

orangzaib said:


> You didn't have to write this if you were really done. Second, debate is good. Forcing your opinion on others isn't.
> But let's move on....



I was finished with the Saab destroyed/not destroyed thing, your assumption that Saab would have covered the damage really caught my eye. (no I don't have any knowledge of procurement and contracts)...and I quite frankly still don't get it how Saab would cover the losses on part of PAF...the US would cover the losses on the Blk 52's would they?

As I said...I am finished with destroyed or not thing, but we can go on with this contracts issue if you wish...I am not trying to enforce my opinion upon you or anything like that...if it felt offensive to you...I apologize, that was not my intention.

Another sincere question in 'knowledge gaining' mode...from whom did PAF buy those airframes? The airlines that operated them or from Saab? AFAIK, the airframes and ERIEYE system was bought separately, deal was struck with the airlines for airframe, while Saab/Ericsson was contacted for ERIEYE. Am I wrong or correct?


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## nomi007



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## Argus Panoptes

nomi007 said:


>



So has the plane been repaired or is this another unit? I am trying to understand the point of showing this photo.


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## Jango

Argus Panoptes said:


> So has the plane been repaired or is this another unit? I am trying to understand the point of showing this photo.



Just another photo, like the numerous other we have of different equipment of the army and PAF. After all this is a defense forum!

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## Viper0011.

nuclearpak said:


> I was finished with the Saab destroyed/not destroyed thing, your assumption that Saab would have covered the damage really caught my eye. (no I don't have any knowledge of procurement and contracts)...and I quite frankly still don't get it how Saab would cover the losses on part of PAF...the US would cover the losses on the Blk 52's would they?
> 
> As I said...I am finished with destroyed or not thing, but we can go on with this contracts issue if you wish...I am not trying to enforce my opinion upon you or anything like that...if it felt offensive to you...I apologize, that was not my intention.
> 
> Another sincere question in 'knowledge gaining' mode...from whom did PAF buy those airframes? The airlines that operated them or from Saab? AFAIK, the airframes and ERIEYE system was bought separately, deal was struck with the airlines for airframe, while Saab/Ericsson was contacted for ERIEYE. Am I wrong or correct?



So here's an example of how this works generally. No one company makes a complete platform. Different things come from different organizations. Take the F-16's, it has GD-LM as the highest level organization, but its engines come from GE, its avionics come from multiple organizations (too many to list) and combat systems from Raytheon, BAE, GoodRich, etc, etc. So airframe to radar to combat systems to the engines and down to the bolts, you have many companies involved.
Now the F-16's or any other defense articles are sold as a package and by getting approvals from the government of the United States. The government sort of controls and backs up the transaction (through different channels, such as FMS, NATO, etc). So you have the US gov't involved, governing and controlling what package, deal or equipment is given and on what terms and conditions. Within the contract, usually, the organizations offer post delivery maintenance services or support contracts. Now you can add whatever provisions to that (as long as they are agreed upon by all parties). That also has a clause of providing maintenance or support in the case of damage (NON war related) like floods, accidents, terrorism, etc. 
Under a scenario like this, say if the contract is valued at $ 800 million, the buyer will pay $ 50 extra millions to cover these rare scenarios (just making these numbers and details up for explanation). Now if these contracts are for 5 years and nothing happened, the seller gets to keep the extra $ 50 million. If something happened, they'll fix certain equipment for free or for a small price, plus they'll give you labor for a reduced rate so that you may operate their product again that was damaged. This is pure business, remember, if they fixed a product and the buyer was able to reuse it....who will you go to for upgrades, additional equipment, training, etc? the SAME manufacturer for the life of that equipment. So they make money and it is in their best interest to help you operate their systems so you remain a customer. 
In this case, no one imagined that the these radar planes will be targeted. Let alone getting targeted inside a highly secured base (Still beyond me to tell you the truth). So if this was a $ 1 billion deal, may be 15-20% may have been asked for these support contracts. Since no one realized the perceived threat, they didn't buy into the 15-20% of $ 1 billion as they thought the money would go to waste as these are highly secured assets and only danger to them was through the war. Turns out inaccurate, doesn't it.
Now, if you want this repaired, everything will cost you full price. In fact Saab 2000 was a discontinued or older model. So for it's support, the price may be 1.5 times or even double as labor supporting the older environment is rare to find. Another example is, how many people run Windows 98 today? Probably very few. So for Microsoft to help support a customer with such an older platform, it'll find contractors that'll be rare and more expensive as it's a rare commodity. Same concept applies here. Combine the labor, equipment and repair cost....it'd be as if you were ordering a brand new AWACS on a brand new airframe and that makes the whole deal super expensive from a financials' standpoint. Thus the decision to write it off. 
Another thing is, the Chinese AWACS are there. Now having experience with Western AWACS, the PAF will ask or work with the Chinese to add certain features from the Western AWACS. Making the Chinese option very similar to the Western ones. So...why spend so much more money on a Western product to repair and fix, when you could theoretically get another Chinese AWACS with similar capability for half the price and a new / less used airframe too?

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## Jango

orangzaib said:


> So here's an example of how this works generally. No one company makes a complete platform. Different things come from different organizations. Take the F-16's, it has GD-LM as the highest level organization, but its engines come from GE, its avionics come from multiple organizations (too many to list) and combat systems from Raytheon, BAE, GoodRich, etc, etc. So airframe to radar to combat systems to the engines and down to the bolts, you have many companies involved.
> Now the F-16's or any other defense articles are sold as a package and by getting approvals from the government of the United States. The government sort of controls and backs up the transaction (through different channels, such as FMS, NATO, etc). So you have the US gov't involved, governing and controlling what package, deal or equipment is given and on what terms and conditions. Within the contract, usually, the organizations offer post delivery maintenance services or support contracts. Now you can add whatever provisions to that (as long as they are agreed upon by all parties). That also has a clause of providing maintenance or support in the case of damage (NON war related) like floods, accidents, terrorism, etc.
> Under a scenario like this, say if the contract is valued at $ 800 million, the buyer will pay $ 50 extra millions to cover these rare scenarios (just making these numbers and details up for explanation). Now if these contracts are for 5 years and nothing happened, the seller gets to keep the extra $ 50 million. If something happened, they'll fix certain equipment for free or for a small price, plus they'll give you labor for a reduced rate so that you may operate their product again that was damaged. This is pure business, remember, if they fixed a product and the buyer was able to reuse it....who will you go to for upgrades, additional equipment, training, etc? the SAME manufacturer for the life of that equipment. So they make money and it is in their best interest to help you operate their systems so you remain a customer.
> In this case, no one imagined that the these radar planes will be targeted. Let alone getting targeted inside a *highly secured base* (Still beyond me to tell you the truth). So if this was a $ 1 billion deal, may be 15-20% may have been asked for these support contracts. Since no one realized the perceived threat, they didn't buy into the 15-20% of $ 1 billion as they thought the money would go to waste as these are highly secured assets and only danger to them was through the war. Turns out inaccurate, doesn't it.
> Now, if you want this repaired, everything will cost you full price. In fact Saab 2000 was a discontinued or older model. So for it's support, the price may be 1.5 times or even double as labor supporting the older environment is rare to find. Another example is, how many people run Windows 98 today? Probably very few. So for Microsoft to help support a customer with such an older platform, it'll find contractors that'll be rare and more expensive as it's a rare commodity. Same concept applies here. Combine the labor, equipment and repair cost....it'd be as if you were ordering a brand new AWACS on a brand new airframe and that makes the whole deal super expensive from a financials' standpoint. Thus the decision to write it off.
> Another thing is, the Chinese AWACS are there. Now having experience with Western AWACS, the PAF will ask or work with the Chinese to add certain features from the Western AWACS. Making the Chinese option very similar to the Western ones. So...why spend so much more money on a Western product to repair and fix, when you could theoretically get another Chinese AWACS with similar capability for half the price and a new / less used airframe too?



Now I get where you are coming from...I misunderstood you initially.

But still this agreement would be part of the support/maintenance category, and not be a guarantee that the supplier will fix the plane for you...?

And you didn't answer, did PAF buy the planes from SAAB or from their former airlines operators?

As for the bold part, well there are alot more surprises in store!!!

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## Viper0011.

nuclearpak said:


> But still this agreement would be part of the support/maintenance category, and not be a guarantee that the supplier will fix the plane for you...?
> And you didn't answer, did PAF buy the planes from SAAB or from their former airlines operators?



The support or maintenance agreement has provisions that outline that when or how certain equipment will be repaired or replaced in case of certain circumstances. This is a legal binding contract to yes, the supplier is bound to honor it. Unless the other party violates it. For example, if the manufacturer of Swedish awacs put in the contract that their systems can't fly to China and they did, then the PAF would be in violation of the contract. Once the contract is breached, Saab is no longer obligated to give PAF anything. In fact, it may put sanctions on it or want its equipment back or whatever penalties may be in the contract.
The manufacturer of these planes or others like Airbus or Boeing usually lease their jets (different process than in the case of Asian countries). When the lease is up, there is a renewal. If the manufacturer thinks they can sell another newer or more advanced version to their customers, than they do that and buy back the older planes or technology. Which they refurbish and then sell to others. Pakistan buying Saab airframes is an example of that. Also, the manufacturer sometimes also helps its customers by finding customers for their older equipment. Then, they sell them new and the other party buying the old equipment pays for their purchase. Which then gets subtracted from the newer equipment's total. Thus, making two customers happy and selling both of them equipment that they need per their financials. Pakistan fits here too, Saab, Australian Mirages, etc are good examples of such.


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## Argus Panoptes

orangzaib said:


> ..............
> Another thing is, the Chinese AWACS are there. Now having experience with Western AWACS, the PAF will ask or work with the Chinese to add certain features from the Western AWACS. Making the Chinese option very similar to the Western ones. So..*.why spend so much more money on a Western product to repair and fix, when you could theoretically get another Chinese AWACS with similar capability for half the price and a new / less used airframe too?*



In that case, why were the Western AWACS even bought initially, if the Chinese platforms are half the price for equal capabilities?

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## razgriz19

F-16s are not compatible with the Chinese systems.
And besides having two different systems increases redundancy.


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## Viper0011.

Argus Panoptes said:


> In that case, why were the Western AWACS even bought initially, if the Chinese platforms are half the price for equal capabilities?



Back then, the Chinese AWACS weren't in the picture. There was just a MOU signed. If you look closely to how the Pakistani military operates, you'll notice that there is a trend. They always buy top end Western products in needed numbers only and then modify their mid - low end products with certain locally - Chinese developed features similar to the Western tech. 

It kind of makes sense as acquiring just expensive stuff isn't feasible due to Pakistan lacking funds. The F-7's use a modern HUD like the F-16, Martin Baker ejection seats, Italian Radars, and other avionics. Similarly, the initial Chinese AWACS may not be as great as the Western ones. But with having Western ones on hand and under operational use, you can always go back and upgrade the Chinese ones to provide similar features or some specific features that it may lack. China can copy pretty much everything I think, even if it is against the law to make illegal copies!

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## fatman17

*Saab 2000 AEW customer signs five-year support deal*: 


Craig Hoyle London
21 Mar 2013 


Saab has received a contract worth SKr1.1 billion ($170 million) for a five-year programme of in-service support for the Saab 2000 airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) system aircraft operated by an undisclosed nation.

Signed on 21 March, the deal will cover the aircraft and their Saab Microwave Systems Erieye active electronically scanned array radars through to 2017, and "concerns a comprehensive set of spares and support services", the Swedish company says. 

Flightglobal's MiliCAS database records Pakistan as being the only nation with an active fleet of Saab 2000 surveillance aircraft. Its air force flies four AEW&C-roled examples, and has an additional example in use as a transport. Islamabad's aircraft originally entered use as regional airliners between 1995 and 1997, according to MiliCAS, but were converted for the airborne early warning mission and delivered from late 2009.

With a mission endurance of almost 10h and five on-board operator stations, the aircraft can perform surveillance tasks from an altitude of more than 30,000ft (9,150m).

MiliCAS also lists the Royal Saudi Air Force as having ordered one Saab 2000 each in the AEW&C and military transport configurations, but says these are not in use.

flightglobal.



_3 main-line defence related sites have confirmed that the contract is for PAF aircraft._

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> MiliCAS also lists the Royal Saudi Air Force as having ordered one Saab 2000 each in the AEW&C and military transport configurations, but says these are not in use.



I would place much more importance to this than the actual support contract. This clears up *alot* of misconception/doubts.

I don't think that the new support and maint contract is really big news or anything, PAF probably got a wakeup call after the Kamra attack and as orangzaib said previously, they maybe cleared a few loopholes in the contract.

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## Viper0011.

nuclearpak said:


> I would place much more importance to this than the actual support contract. This clears up *alot* of misconception/doubts.
> I don't think that the new support and maint contract is really big news or anything, PAF probably got a wakeup call after the Kamra attack and as orangzaib said previously, they maybe cleared a few loopholes in the contract.



Yup, precisely what it is. After the incident, they realized, holly crap!! These planes can be targeted outside of the war zone. So let's go buy band-aids so if any injury occurs, we can put tape on it and get the plane healthy to fly again. More than likely, they revisited the contract, added provisions and paid the extra amount. It doesn't make sense to lose a 200 million dollar plane and lose an asset (one out of four) permanently vs. paying or gambling with an additional $ 20 million. Which is not that much when compared to a situation like the cost of repairing the destroyed AWACS from scratch!

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## Viper0011.

Capt.Popeye said:


> orangzaib[/MENTION]; you are being either too naive or ignorant, if you believe that such damage can be covered by commercial warranty or insurance or replacement plan. This is no computer or TV or HiFi for home use. Nor was it bought from Walmart or Office Depot. This was not even accidental damage!



Do you have a background in procurements?? I don't think that's the case. However, you are right in that this ain't a laptop or a car. I agree with that. This is instead, very advanced hi tech machinery.............). Point made!


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## Capt.Popeye

orangzaib said:


> Do you have a background in procurements?? I don't think that's the case. However, you are right in that this ain't a laptop or a car. I agree with that. This is instead, very advanced hi tech machinery.............). Point made!



Well, I do have a background in procurements. Marine procurements to be particular. Both in Uniform and Civvy street. About two decades worth in Supervising Construction and then in carrying out Buyer's Trials/Assessments/Inspections.


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## Viper0011.

Capt.Popeye said:


> Well, I do have a background in procurements. Marine procurements to be particular. Both in Uniform and Civvy street. About two decades worth in Supervising Construction and then in carrying out Buyer's Trials/Assessments/Inspections.



I appreciate the background. Was that in defense procurements with related to hi-tech OEM?


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> F-16s are not compatible with the Chinese systems.
> And besides having two different systems increases redundancy.



i think PAF is working on a home-grown land based solution to 'link' both systems so that they can talk to each other


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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> i think PAF is working on a home-grown land based solution to 'link' both systems so that they can talk to each other


True sir....


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## Capt.Popeye

orangzaib said:


> I appreciate the background. Was that in defense procurements with related to hi-tech OEM?



Yes indeed. As Team Leader/Manager at Shipyard Procurement and also as Third Party Inspector/Assesor.


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## blain2

fatman17 said:


> i think PAF is working on a home-grown land based solution to 'link' both systems so that they can talk to each other



Its already in place. The existing GCI is being used to relay information from the nodes in the air. This was the quickest and easiest way to disseminate information between platforms with incompatible avionics. However the Erieyes can also relay directly to the Chinese platforms but over VHF/UHF channels but such solution may not work as well in times of a conflict due to chances of eavesdropping and jamming.

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## janon

Apart from the F-16s and JF-17s, can the other aircrafts in PAF be controlled by either AEWACs?


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## fatman17

janon said:


> Apart from the F-16s and JF-17s, can the other aircrafts in PAF be controlled by either AEWACs?



good question...?


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## Manticore

Prosecutors eyes Pakistan deal
Updated 2013-04-12 07:14. Published 2013-04-12 06:11

Chief Prosecutor Gunnar StetlerPhoto: Linnea Bergenudd

The National Anti-Corruption Unit is considering launching an investigation after Di's revelations about Saab billion business in Pakistan. "There is reason to take this information seriously," said chief prosecutor Gunnar Stetler.

On Thursday, Di published new revelations about how the defense group Saab paid half a billion to an intermediary agent Majjid Bashir Ahmed, who made &#8203;&#8203;sure that the major Swedish company got word of radar systems to Pakistan, worth a total of 7 billion.


Since the summer of 2012 contains Swedish mutlagstiftning particular offense reckless financing bribe. If the company does not make sufficient checks can now be held liable if the agent pays bribes with money coming from the company.

But since Pakistan deal was completed before the new law came into force is the legal analysis under the older law where intent must be demonstrated.

Google Translate

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## TaimiKhan

janon said:


> Apart from the F-16s and JF-17s, can the other aircrafts in PAF be controlled by either AEWACs?



All the other assets of PAF, which included Mirages & F-7s have been equipped with new radio communication sets, which enables them to talk to any asset of the PAF including AEW&C systems, but data transfer capability is something which seems to be currently limited to JF-17 & F-16s only. 

But voice communication is not a problem.

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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


> Prosecutors eyes Pakistan deal
> Updated 2013-04-12 07:14. Published 2013-04-12 06:11
> 
> Chief Prosecutor Gunnar StetlerPhoto: Linnea Bergenudd
> 
> The National Anti-Corruption Unit is considering launching an investigation after Di's revelations about Saab billion business in Pakistan. "There is reason to take this information seriously," said chief prosecutor Gunnar Stetler.
> 
> On Thursday, Di published new revelations about how the defense group Saab paid half a billion to an intermediary agent Majjid Bashir Ahmed, who made &#8203;&#8203;sure that the major Swedish company got word of radar systems to Pakistan, worth a total of 7 billion.
> 
> 
> Since the summer of 2012 contains Swedish mutlagstiftning particular offense reckless financing bribe. If the company does not make sufficient checks can now be held liable if the agent pays bribes with money coming from the company.
> 
> But since Pakistan deal was completed before the new law came into force is the legal analysis under the older law where intent must be demonstrated.
> 
> Google Translate



This could get serious.

I always thought Saudis played a part in getting the deal. Any info about this Majid Bashir Ahmed guy?


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## rohailmalhi

nuclearpak said:


> This could get serious.
> 
> I always thought Saudis played a part in getting the deal. Any info about this Majid Bashir Ahmed guy?



They made sure by giving kick back of almost half billion SEK to this middle man who have to make sure Pakistan buys Saab as they didnt have any customer for this system.

The news goes on and tells that all the money for this deal was lent by Swedish govt .


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## Jango

From the same link ANTIBODY provided...Google Translate

THis link says 3 destroyed...? I doubt it though. Maybe they mixed up damage and destroyed.

This could get very embarrassing for PAF if the Swedish investigate this and find something fishy, not to mention that SAAB would also be in trouble.

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## Roybot

nuclearpak said:


> From the same link ANTIBODY provided...Google Translate
> 
> THis link says 3 destroyed...?
> 
> This could get very embarrassing for PAF if the Swedish investigate this find something fishy, not to mention that SAAB would also be in trouble.



It says 1 destroyed, 2 damaged and needs repair. It also says that the Sab2000s were bought on Swedish loan? Is this true?



> *Taliban destroyed the Swedish-financed planes*
> Updated 2013-04-10 08:45. Published 2013-04-10 06:14
> 
> 
> Three radar planes of Pakistan Air Force bought munitions manufacturer Saab with borrowed money from the Swedish state is shattered in a terrorist attack. *Saab can expect a new billion order while the Swedish taxpayers sitting with 5-6 billion in bad loans.*
> 
> Early on the morning of August 16 last year, nine well-armed men attacked the airbase at Kamra, six mil from the capital Islamabad.*That night was three Saab 2000 aircraft with Erieye radar system established on the base - and all in the same space, according to Di's sources.* The terrorists chose delete other tempting targets.
> 
> After a several hours long firefight with automatic weapons, explosives and rocket launchers were the attackers dead.
> 
> The ultra-modern Swedish radar planes were badly damaged, but the government and the security forces embarrassing story quieted down. Officially stated immediately after the battle that the nose cone of the plane had been damaged.
> 
> At the same time took the Pakistani Taliban group Teh-reek-i-Taliban claimed responsibility for the attack. In a statement explaining that the attack was revenge for the terrorist leaders Baitullah Mehsud and Osama Bin Laden's death.
> 
> Only recently, in February, admits Pakistan's Defence Ministry loss of one of the most expensive Swedish radar plan.
> 
> In Sweden, only a few people to what happened with Saab plan and their valuable Erieyesystem.
> 
> *Two independent sources say the Di that one of Erieyeplanen was completely destroyed and the other two planes are so severely injured that they have to undergo repairs.*
> 
> *In practice, the Swedish tax money which has now gone up in smoke in a Taliban attack. State Swedish Export has namely funded plan through a credit agreement of 7.4 billion concluded 2006th
> 
> In May 2012 came the final order, and only a few months later - in August - beating the Taliban.*
> 
> It is about the Pakistani Air Force Perhaps the single most valuable asset, and not just the purchase price of SEK 7 billion. Erieye is counted as one of the most advanced surveillance systems and has made it possible for Pakistan to have full control over what happens in the air, and to a large extent on the ground.
> 
> Only one of the four Erieyeplanen escaped the attack. It was elsewhere in Pakistan.
> 
> Government of Pakistan is now very anxious to get the two damaged planes repaired with Saab's help and discussions have taken place at express speed.
> 
> Saab can expect 1-2 billion in payment for new supplies of support and spares, deliveries may start already this year.
> 
> ISP stopped all new business with Pakistan in 2007, referring to unrest in the country, but the repairs are classified as follow-on deliveries. And since Saab's original application to the ISP about six planes are also nothing to prevent the company from selling to one, according to Di's sources.


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## Jango

Roybot said:


> It says 1 destroyed, 2 damaged and needs repair. It also says that the Sab2000s were bought on Swedish loan? Is this true?





> Today's industry revealed on Wednesday that three of the four Saab Plan Pakistan Defence purchased have been destroyed in a Taliban attack. According to the newspaper, it can lead to Swedish taxpayers, who financed and guaranteed funding from the Swedish Export Credit and Export Credits Guarantee Board, now sitting with bad loans of 5-6 billion
> 
> Google Translate.



The one which got destroyed was burned, maybe the heat severely damaged the other two?

These links also put in question the number of aircraft...the link says we bought 4 Saab aircraft(link doesn't say whether 4 AWACS or only Saab), till now, only 4 aircraft have been seen in public eye but officially there are 5, there are alot of rumors regarding the 5th aircraft.

this investigation goes on, alot may come out. Lets wait and see.


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## fatman17

too confusing and too speculative.

lets base things on facts and not opinions - with opinions one gets carried away esp. in PK


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> too confusing and too speculative.
> 
> lets base things on facts and not opinions - with opinions one gets carried away esp. in PK



Yeah, the translation messes everything up.

But the next big bang will come from Sweden...

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## Fieldmarshal

wt the above say was very very right, right after the attack. ie our losses were 1 destroyed and 2 damaged.

all three were parked in the the same hanger. 
as one ac had just come back from a training sortie, so the hanger door was open some what and refueling bowser was standing outside the hanger (to refuel the ac for the next sortie in a couple of hours). 
rpg round hit the ac standing in the middle dead on. nothing but the landing gears and the vertice stabilizer were recovered. it is a total loss!! (any one sayin anything else is just b.sing ).
the other two ac suffered burn spots to the airframe from the fire and initially it was thought that the platform might need to replaced(all the systems were completely intact and suffered on damage).
But after a through analysis they were deemed repairable and are being repaired/have been repaired.

and dear membersthat is the whole story (the rest and the blank spaces i have filled in my earlier posts).

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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> wt the above say was very very right, right after the attack. ie our losses were 1 destroyed and 2 damaged.
> 
> all three were parked in the the same hanger.
> as one ac had just come back from a training sortie, so the hanger door was open some what and refueling bowser was standing outside the hanger (to refuel the ac for the next sortie in a couple of hours).
> rpg round hit the ac standing in the middle dead on. nothing but the landing gears and the vertice stabilizer were recovered. it is a total loss!! (any one sayin anything else is just b.sing ).
> the other two ac suffered burn spots to the airframe from the fire and initially it was thought that the platform might need to replaced(all the systems were completely intact and suffered on damage).
> But after a through analysis they were deemed repairable and are being repaired/have been repaired.
> 
> and dear membersthat is the whole story (the rest and the blank spaces i have filled in my earlier posts).



They got saved due to the timely arrival of fire crews!!!

Warna they would have melted in no time.

The initial thoight was that the internals got burned but later these fears proved wrong.

That is why some people including me initially said that 2 destroyed.


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## Donatello

nuclearpak said:


> They got saved due to the timely arrival of fire crews!!!
> 
> Warna they would have melted in no time.
> 
> The initial thoight was that the internals got burned but later these fears proved wrong.
> 
> That is why some people including me initially said that 2 destroyed.



So 1 destroyed and 3 flying??


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## Capt.Popeye

Donatello said:


> So 1 destroyed and 3 flying??



After that unfortunate episode; have any of them been seen flying?


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## Jango

Donatello said:


> So 1 destroyed and 3 flying??



I am not sure whether the other two damaged ones are flying or not, one had more damage than the other one so logically it would have taken more time to repair.

Till now we have seen Saab's on 2/3 occasions but no serial number was distinguishable, so I guess atleast 2 are flying...?

Also remember, the ERIEYE system is the valuable thing, so the actual question about those 2 systems would be that whether the ERIEYE on affected aircraft got any damage? If it did, then has it been repaired? Cosmetic damage to the aircraft isn't really tough, you can get panels very easily in this amount of time.


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## Fieldmarshal

nuclearpak said:


> They got saved due to the timely arrival of fire crews!!!
> 
> Warna they would have melted in no time.
> 
> .



thats not true. 
the cross fire was very intense and one fire tenden got hit pretty badly. this delayed the arrival of fire rescue. other wise had they got their in time the ac that got hit, its electronics would have been saved for sure as the rpg round hit the back end of its air frame.

ps: the indian members on the forum must be having a field day and the time on their life reading all this.
but i got news for u, that even though this incident was pretty bad for Pakistan but it also had a silver lining. in fact it was a coup and the evidence and info gathered has been (how shall i say) very very helpful for our cause.


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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> thats not true.
> the cross fire was very intense and one fire tenden got hit pretty badly. this delayed the arrival of fire rescue. other wise had they got their in time the ac that got hit, its electronics would have been saved for sure as the rpg round hit the back end of its air frame.



I was talking about the other 2 which were beside the middle one. 

From what I heard initially, atleast one more aircraft was thought to be toast. 

But good thing we recovered it.


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## fatman17

Capt.Popeye said:


> After that unfortunate episode; have any of them been seen flying?



they were operating during saffron bandit excercise.


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## fatman17

*ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle*

ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (S/N T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a traditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. 

The PESA radar is thought to scan electronically in elevation but mechanically in azimuth. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose and tail with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as small vertical stabilizers attached to its tailplanes. Another two MAWS sensors are attached to the tailcone as well. Additional fairings are seen at the wingtips and the tail housing ESM antennas. 

The Y-8 AWACS protoype flew to Pakistan and was evaluated by Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now named ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade high efficiency propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m contract. The first ZDK-03 prototype rolled out in November 2010 at SAC. 

Since then it has been undergoing test at CFTE (S/N 733). ZDK-03 is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore ZDK-03 operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The first ZDK-03 (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 11-002) was delivered some time later. A recent image (March 2012) suggested that at least one more ZDK-03 has been built.

- Last Updated 4/14/12

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## DANGER-ZONE

^ A picture of some new developments in china showing third ZDK-03 in the last picture, ready to rock n roll.

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## fatman17

DZ the crews are already in China training.....

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## Windjammer

@nuclearpak,

So if Air Directorate was hiding the truth, should we now assume the secretary defence lied as well.


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> @nuclearpak,
> 
> So if Air Directorate was hiding the truth, should we now assume the secretary defence lied as well.



Sorry didn't get it...could you rephrase?


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Sorry didn't get it...could you rephrase?



The ISPR (Air) told me that one Ereye received nominal damage, every one was insisting otherwise, then the secretary defence apparently told the senate committee that one aircraft was destroyed so the ISPR was considered as a culprit, now some other source has cropped up claiming otherwise....so now do we point fingers at the secretary defence for telling half truth. !!


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> The ISPR (Air) told me that one Ereye received nominal damage, every one was insisting otherwise, then the secretary defence apparently told the senate committee that one aircraft was destroyed so the ISPR was considered as a culprit, now some other source has cropped up claiming otherwise....so now do we point fingers at the secretary defence for telling half truth. !!



What source has cropped up what? Any new development I missed?


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> What source has cropped up what? Any new development I missed?





nuclearpak said:


> From the same link ANTIBODY provided...Google Translate
> 
> THis link says 3 destroyed...? I doubt it though. Maybe they mixed up damage and destroyed.


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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> nuclearpak said:
> 
> 
> 
> From the same link ANTIBODY provided...Google Translate
> 
> THis link says 3 destroyed...? I doubt it though. Maybe they mixed up damage and destroyed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the link quoting secretary defence?
> 
> 
> On the other side, Did Air Directorate or ISPR refuted secretary defense statement? or you could call your beloved ISPR and could ask them weather secretary defense was lying
Click to expand...

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> From the same link ANTIBODY provided...Google Translate
> 
> THis link says 3 destroyed...? I doubt it though. Maybe they mixed up damage and destroyed.



Yeah they mixed up destroyed and damaged, they took the damaged ones as destroyed. Maybe it got jumbled up in the translation from Swedish to English.


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Yeah they mixed up destroyed and damaged, they took the damaged ones as destroyed. Maybe it got jumbled up in the translation from Swedish to English.



Who knows, may be the defence secretary also got mixed up.


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## Capt.Popeye

nuclearpak said:


> Yeah they mixed up destroyed and damaged, they took the damaged ones as destroyed. Maybe it got jumbled up in the translation from Swedish to English.



So the only thing certain is the 'grass fires' that took place that day and earlier in Kamra. Maybe that is the truth.


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> Who knows, may be the defence secretary also got mixed up.



No he didn't get it mixed up, he played smart.

And EVERYONE knows!



Capt.Popeye said:


> So the only thing certain is the 'grass fires' that took place that day and earlier in Kamra. Maybe that is the truth.



Oh it was much more than a grass fire, it was a full fledged blaze! If somebody doesn't wanna believe, what can I do!

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> No he didn't get it mixed up, he played smart.
> 
> And EVERYONE knows!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh it was much more than a grass fire, it was a full fledged blaze! If somebody doesn't wanna believe, what can I do!



Now that's called mixing apples and oranges.....the grass fire incident happened several months before the attack on Kamra....the newspaper (Express) had to withdraw their story after false reporting that the fire was in MRF.


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## Capt.Popeye

nuclearpak said:


> No he didn't get it mixed up, he played smart.
> 
> And EVERYONE knows!
> Oh it was much more than a grass fire, it was a full fledged blaze! If somebody doesn't wanna believe, what can I do!



Oh! There were grass fires earlier and on that day (night?) as _somebody_ here was ceaselessly telling us as it was happening. 
I'd go with that story too, since all that mayhem must have put the grass on fire for sure. 

And everybody knows, at least 3 parties know.


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## SQ8

Hypothetically.. and a wild tangent.. 

You have an aircraft that cannot fly.. and you find out that it will take a lot of cash to get the airframe back and refitted and so on and so forth. But at the end it is still listed as damaged or written off.
So you decide that while the aircraft is a loss, you still have a lot of equipment sitting around that could be send to a certain unnamed building near the office of Fauji Foundation in RWP or sent to a certain republic that has a MS degree offered in reverse engineering.
You look at both options and find that the said republic would be more than glad to have whole intact highly sophisticated AESA radar arrays , ESM systems and what not to look at, examine and attempt to reverse engineer along with promising to let you have the first replica for the similar product (and other wise) that they sold to you and some stuff you keep for your own attempts at reverse engineering.

You have Swedish folks asking you what you want to do with the stuff and you decide to tell them that it was a complete loss and all over and cordon up the airframe within a Hangar to have it stripped away piece by piece. Official statements are made.. some embarasssments done.. but overall you walk away happy that you may get something better out of this fiasco overall. 

It's a theory..

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## Windjammer

It's always a pleasure to burst some frivolous characters from the neighbourhood....here's the link to the grass fire incident which incidentally was posted by another member .....now if my memory stays with me the attack on Kamra took place some three months after this incident....hope that puts a lid on someone's laughing gear. !! 


http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ase-mysterious-fire-caused-lose-millions.html



http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ase-mysterious-fire-caused-lose-millions.html

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## Jango

@Oscar, trying to be clever eh? 

This could be a possibility for the 'damaged' aircraft...certainly a clever idea.


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> @Oscar, trying to be clever eh?
> 
> This could be a possibility for the 'damaged' aircraft...certainly a clever idea.



And there's a possibility that the only loss suffered was a 'DAMAGED' aircraft. !!!

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> And there's a possibility that the only loss suffered was a 'DAMAGED' aircraft. !!!



Look...and i'll say it very bluntly...

If you want to live in your fantasy land, help yourself...I am not going to go over this again. We all know how you said that how could there be a fire, you called ISPR and whatnot etc etc. You also called some major in the Tirah valley incident and we all know how that turned out.

Ask fatman17 if you don't wanna believe me or other members.

I am not going to run this story again...you don't wanna believe that the aircraft is destroyed, don't. Not my problem.

(no offence or personal beef).

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Look...and i'll say it very bluntly...
> 
> If you want to live in your fantasy land, help yourself...I am not going to go over this again. We all know how you said that how could there be a fire, you called ISPR and whatnot etc etc. You also called some major in the Tirah valley incident and we all know how that turned out.
> 
> Ask fatman17 if you don't wanna believe me or other members.
> 
> I am not going to run this story again...you don't wanna believe that the aircraft is destroyed, don't. Not my problem.
> 
> (no offence or personal beef).



Dude it wasn't my personal loss that i will go out of the way defending it....nor was it due to my negligence...however as i have proved the grass fire at Kamra was a different incident which i provided links to....you should read your own posts in it as well.

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> Dude it wasn't my personal loss that i will go out of the way defending it....nor was it due to my negligence...however as i have proved the grass fire at Kamra was a different incident which i provided links to....you should read your own posts in it as well.



I thought that Popeye was referring to incident of the Saabs on fire as a grassfire...

Anyways, let's leave it now.


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## Hulk

Oscar said:


> Hypothetically.. and a wild tangent..
> 
> You have an aircraft that cannot fly.. and you find out that it will take a lot of cash to get the airframe back and refitted and so on and so forth. But at the end it is still listed as damaged or written off.
> So you decide that while the aircraft is a loss, you still have a lot of equipment sitting around that could be send to a certain unnamed building near the office of Fauji Foundation in RWP or sent to a certain republic that has a MS degree offered in reverse engineering.
> You look at both options and find that the said republic would be more than glad to have whole intact highly sophisticated AESA radar arrays , ESM systems and what not to look at, examine and attempt to reverse engineer along with promising to let you have the first replica for the similar product (and other wise) that they sold to you and some stuff you keep for your own attempts at reverse engineering.
> 
> You have Swedish folks asking you what you want to do with the stuff and you decide to tell them that it was a complete loss and all over and cordon up the airframe within a Hangar to have it stripped away piece by piece. Official statements are made.. some embarasssments done.. but overall you walk away happy that you may get something better out of this fiasco overall.
> 
> It's a theory..



So again having intentions of illegally trying reverse engineer and abuse IP rights. No wonder world is cautious in selling cutting edge weapons to Pakistan.


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## ababeel22

indianrabbit said:


> So again having intentions of illegally trying reverse engineer and abuse IP rights. No wonder world is cautious in selling cutting edge weapons to Pakistan.


i dont think there is anything wrong about trying to look in to the latest technology that u buy from other more advanced sources and try to produce something like that if u can... any country who can do that will definitely try... this is one the many ways to learn..


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## janon

ababeel22 said:


> i dont think there is anything wrong about trying to look in to the latest technology that u buy from other more advanced sources and try to produce something like that if u can... any country who can do that will definitely try... this is one the many ways to learn..



Well, one particular country is notorious for that. (I don't mean pakistan.)



On topic, PAF now has exactly two kinds of AEWACs, right? The SAABs and the Chinese ones? Are all the chinese ones exactly the same, or are there variations among them?

Also, what is the reason for having two different kinds of AEWACs? Is it to have a hi-lo mix like the IAF is aiming for? Is one of them a lot more capable than the other? Why not simply have the chinese ones alone (I'm assuming they are cheaper)? Wouldn't that save cost through commonality? Are the SAABs a lot more capable?

How many AEWACs does PAF intend to have in total? Are there more being procured? (A member has posted images of one being readied in China in the previous page.)


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## SQ8

indianrabbit said:


> So again having intentions of illegally trying reverse engineer and abuse IP rights. No wonder world is cautious in selling cutting edge weapons to Pakistan.



Yet they do when they do.


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## Munir

It is not different in the western world. Stealing, copying etc... Japan did it in the past. Taiwan did it. China os extremely doing it. Just watch the fight between Apple and Samsung... So if you don't you will not get the basic to move on. Typical Indian statement to blame Pakistan.

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## DARKY

Oscar said:


> sent to a certain republic that has a MS degree offered in reverse engineering.
> 
> It's a theory..



There lies in the difference in remain being dependent and trying to become independent.

BTW.. It can be used as ground based radar and since it works in S-band possibly they can try and make it a FCR.







This one was the test bed and used on ground before being mounted on EMB-145.



Munir said:


> Typical Indian statement to blame Pakistan.



I am quiet aware of the fact and I take a certain degree of pride in our Radar based electronics development.. no shame in admitting the part that most of our latest AESA designs are greatly influenced by Israeli ones and have had a lot of contribution in this regard.. but stealing and copying creates a bad reputation.


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## fatman17

janon said:


> Well, one particular country is notorious for that. (I don't mean pakistan.)
> 
> 
> 
> On topic, PAF now has exactly two kinds of AEWACs, right? The SAABs and the Chinese ones? Are all the chinese ones exactly the same, or are there variations among them?
> 
> *Also, what is the reason for having two different kinds of AEWACs*? Is it to have a hi-lo mix like the IAF is aiming for? Is one of them a lot more capable than the other? Why not simply have the chinese ones alone (I'm assuming they are cheaper)? Wouldn't that save cost through commonality? Are the SAABs a lot more capable?
> 
> How many AEWACs does PAF intend to have in total? Are there more being procured? (A member has posted images of one being readied in China in the previous page.)



the erieye talks to the F16's
the ZDK talks to the JFT
there is a GCI based system that links both and talks to both. you can call it hi-lo or whatever but its working.

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## Munir

DARKY said:


> There lies in the difference in remain being dependent and trying to become independent.
> 
> BTW.. It can be used as ground based radar and since it works in S-band possibly they can try and make it a FCR.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one was the test bed and used on ground before being mounted on EMB-145.
> 
> 
> 
> I am quiet aware of the fact and I take a certain degree of pride in our Radar based electronics development.. no shame in admitting the part that most of our latest AESA designs are greatly influenced by Israeli ones and have had a lot of contribution in this regard.. but stealing and copying creates a bad reputation.



Let us wait and see how well it performs...

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## Jango

janon said:


> Well, one particular country is notorious for that. (I don't mean pakistan.)
> 
> 
> 
> On topic, PAF now has exactly two kinds of AEWACs, right? The SAABs and the Chinese ones? Are all the chinese ones exactly the same, or are there variations among them?
> 
> Also, what is the reason for having two different kinds of AEWACs? Is it to have a hi-lo mix like the IAF is aiming for? Is one of them a lot more capable than the other? Why not simply have the chinese ones alone (I'm assuming they are cheaper)? Wouldn't that save cost through commonality? Are the SAABs a lot more capable?
> 
> How many AEWACs does PAF intend to have in total? Are there more being procured? (A member has posted images of one being readied in China in the previous page.)



You have been on the forum for two years so you should be aware of the ongoing of the forum. Kindly do some research as well!

As for your questions, Fatman explained the need for 2 different types...

There are plans to have total of 8 AWACS, 4 Saab 2000 and 4 ZDK-03. And yes, the Saabs are more capable.


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## janon

nuclearpak said:


> *You have been on the forum for two years so you should be aware of the ongoing of the forum. Kindly do some research as well!*
> 
> As for your questions, Fatman explained the need for 2 different types...
> 
> There are plans to have total of 8 AWACS, 4 Saab 2000 and 4 ZDK-03. And yes, the Saabs are more capable.



Wow. All right, I'll stay away. Thanks for the responses.


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## Jango

janon said:


> Wow. All right, I'll stay away. Thanks for the responses.



It's just that every other member comes in and asks a straight forward simple question without having spent one minute researching for anything, atleast go through the thread or the section. There's a treasure trove of information in the PAF section...

Don't expect everything on a plate ready to be served.

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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> the erieye talks to the F16's
> the ZDK talks to the JFT
> there is a GCI based system that links both and talks to both. you can call it hi-lo or whatever but its working.





nuclearpak said:


> It's just that every other member comes in and asks a straight forward simple question without having spent one minute researching for anything, atleast go through the thread or the section. There's a treasure trove of information in the PAF section...
> 
> Don't expect everything on a plate ready to be served.



Every one says ZDK-03 is a lo in Hi-lo combination. Is it because it is chinese and every AWAC cost 70 million or is it because no performance data exist of ZDK-03?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Well Fatman I hope you can sticky posts and not just threads so I don't have to see the go damn bloody same question being posed again and again


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> It's just that every other member comes in and asks a straight forward simple question without having spent one minute researching for anything, atleast go through the thread or the section. There's a treasure trove of information in the PAF section...
> 
> Don't expect everything on a plate ready to be served.



easy way out.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Well Fatman I hope you can sticky posts and not just threads so I don't have to see the go damn bloody same question being posed again and again



sorry mate i dont know what u r talking about

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## janon

fatman17 said:


> easy way out.
> 
> 
> 
> sorry mate i dont know what u r talking about



I think what @Abu Zolfiqar means is that if there is a sticky thread containing basic info about PAF's AEWACs, where a few of the most informational posts are put up, then some of us will not have to ask basic questions and irritate some of you.

Yes it was the "easy way out" for me to ask those questions, without going through 223 pages of this thread first. If there is a 2 or 3 page sticky thread with just relevant posts with info, then it would be easy for me (and many others like me who have a mild interest, but not more) to look that up before asking questions here.

As it stands, I really cannot go through 223 pages to get the answers to a few questions that popped in my mind. Not because I am too lazy to make an effort, but because like many others who are on the forum, military technology is only one of my interests. (Unlike for some of you who are professionals in the field.)

I second Abu's suggestion that there be a sticky thread. It will help some of us who are seeking knowledge merely out of curiosity. (I know I'm not the only one.) And it will eliminate the irritation that you or @nuclearpak or others who aleady know a lot feel, when you see these elementary questions. We could get the info we need without disrupting the thread or asking questions.


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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ecial-mission-aircrafts-information-pool.html
Individual posts can be qouted like ive done in jft info pool, not stuck


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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/121866-awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-designs-3.html
> 
> this thread has the posts containing 'specs' of paf systems -- I can put/copy the pak related data in this thread into a new info pool thread that i will start if its required by members?



A better option would be to edit the first post of the thread with all the info of PAF's AWACS, number, type, squadrons, date of induction and delivery, origins, a brief overview of the specs etc.

So the FAQ's answers can be posted there.


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## Manticore

new information comes and suddenly you feel a lot of info has to be posted in a single post, thus creating loading problems , not to mention 8photo restriction.. thus putting info in only 2-3 posts is not possible.... even ak info pool's basic info ran for 3 pages!--- so i can make a dedicated thread and start by posting some good info, rest you guys can pitch in as i am still recovering from my operation and not very active these days


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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


> new information comes and suddenly you feel a lot of info has to be posted in a single post, thus creating loading problems , not to mention 8photo restriction.. thus putting info in only 2-3 posts is not possible.... even ak info pool's basic info ran for 3 pages!--- so i can make a dedicated thread and start by posting some good info, rest you guys can pitch in as i am still recovering from my operation and not very active these days



That is a very detailed info pool with a whole lot of info, what I am talking about is a general overview...the physical quantities, like the no of aircraft, types, dates etc. The detailed specs could be put in a thread as you said.

I am not talking about the technical parameters.


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## mughaljee

Sorry if i am wrong, 
why we can not detect the US Abottabad raid, while we have these air crafts in working conditions.


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## DANGER-ZONE

mughaljee said:


> Sorry if i am wrong,
> why we can not detect the US Abottabad raid, while we have these air crafts in working conditions.



We were lacking balls, if I say rudely. 
We had the equipment and detected them as well. They could jam our communication at once but Political Jamming was enough for this purpose. Its a LIE that our system failed or we could not respond on time.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

fatman17 said:


> sorry mate i dont know what u r talking about



i speak with reference to (and am endorsing) post #3337




-Zed


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## Mani2020

mughaljee said:


> Sorry if i am wrong,
> why we can not detect the US Abottabad raid, while we have these air crafts in working conditions.



I second @danger-zone we cant detect anything until and unless mr zardari and COAS want us too ...dont go by the gadgets they are just show pieces the reality is US can bomb the hell out of tribal areas whenever they want , US choppers and fighters can violate Pakistan's airspace any time they want , few moronic talibans can burn these costly gadgets to ashes whenever they want

so my friend these costly gadgets are bought on the expense of poor public just to make some people show off or brag about and talk big on forums like this ....nothing else .....dnt be surprised if all of them are scrapped without ever being used in a real war or for the protection of this country ..... coz Pakistan ka KHUDA hi hafiz ha .....

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## Windjammer

*
The Erieye AWACS that participated in Saffron Bandit 2013 was serial No. 100 40.*

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## RAMPAGE

hi guys why should we upgrade our jf-17 radars with aesa radars when we already have awacs,basically our aircrafts dont need a radar,am i right


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## Najam Khan

MAAZ ZAFAR said:


> hi guys why should we upgrade our jf-17 radars with aesa radars when we already have awacs,*basically our aircrafts dont need a rada*r,am i right :*confused*:



You are not right, you are 'confused'.
You can search google a lot on the subject, but the crux is that fighter aircraft require radars to track enemy air, sea/land targets, guide radar guided munitions, guide and participate in network centric way of war by working together with other air, sea or land based assets. Helping friendly forces and getting help where required.

Bottom line, its like eyes and ears of the aircraft (along with lots of other supported electronics), without these a fighter aircraft is nothing, relying entirely on AEW&C for radar guidance will never work.

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## nomi007

JZY-01


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## MastanKhan

mughaljee said:


> Sorry if i am wrong,
> why we can not detect the US Abottabad raid, while we have these air crafts in working conditions.



Mughaljee,

My brother---don't you get it by now that it does not make any difference if you that they were coming or if they were not.

Remember---anybody can die any given day---specially facing someone a million times stronger---but it takes a lots of tenacity to come out of this situation alive---even though the nation took a pounding in the public affairs dept on the world forum.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Najam Khan said:


> You are not right, you are 'confused'.
> You can search google a lot on the subject, but the crux is that fighter aircraft require radars to track enemy air, sea/land targets, guide radar guided munitions, guide and participate in network centric way of war by working together with other air, sea or land based assets. Helping friendly forces and getting help where required.
> 
> Bottom line, its like eyes and ears of the aircraft (along with lots of other supported electronics), without these a fighter aircraft is nothing, relying entirely on AEW&C for radar guidance will never work.


 In air-to-air combat, AEW&C systems can communicate with friendly aircraft, extend their sensor range and give them added stealth, since they no longer need their own active radar to detect threats,WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO U,plz explain in a little detail,btw the highlighted is taken from wiki


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## gambit

> MAAZ ZAFAR said:
> 
> 
> 
> hi guys why should we upgrade our jf-17 radars with aesa radars when we already have awacs,basically our aircrafts dont need a radar,am i right
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Najam Khan said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are not right, you are 'confused'.
> You can search google a lot on the subject, but the crux is that fighter aircraft require radars to track enemy air, sea/land targets, guide radar guided munitions, guide and participate in network centric way of war by working together with other air, sea or land based assets. Helping friendly forces and getting help where required.
> 
> Bottom line, its like eyes and ears of the aircraft (along with lots of other supported electronics), without these a fighter aircraft is nothing, relying entirely on AEW&C for radar guidance will never work.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MAAZ ZAFAR said:
> 
> 
> 
> In air-to-air combat, AEW&C systems can communicate with friendly aircraft, extend their sensor range and give them added stealth, since they no longer need their own active radar to detect threats,WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO U,plz explain in a little detail,btw the highlighted is taken from wiki
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Here is what you should understand...

Any time something is not under your control, it is a 'convenience' or a 'luxury'. The reason being is that it cannot be relied upon to be at your disposal at all times. That is not an insult at the AWACS community. They do work very hard to be on time, on station, and on alert. But the wartime reality is an AWACS can be chased from station, can have mechanical complications that degrades their capability, run out of fuel, or the war is severe enough that it taxed the AWACS resources enough that this 'eye in the sky' is not available for everyone. An AWACS is very much a 'battlefield convenience'.

Even for US where we rely very much on AWACS and networked sensors, we still want individual combatants to have their own sensors, limited is better than none, so that in the event where they lost the AWACS or did not receive AWACS support in the first place, they can still perform the mission assigned to them, at least to some degrees.

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## Rajput_Pakistani

@gambit

Sir, few questions regarding air-borne radars. Indians claim that their MKI is a mini-AWACS. Sir, kindly shed some light on how a war-plane itself expose to opposing side, when it switch on its Radar or try to track a target at longer ranges with maximum power output?

What will be the difference of tracking a MKI if
Case 1: Its coming with its own radar switched off and relying solely on its networking with AWACS.
Case 2: Its coming with its own radar switched on at max power out-put

Thanks in advance Sir.


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## Luftwaffe

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Sir, few questions regarding air-borne radars. Indians claim that their MKI is a mini-AWACS. Sir, kindly shed some light on how a war-plane itself expose to opposing side, when it switch on its Radar or try to track a target at longer ranges with maximum power output?
> 
> What will be the difference of tracking a MKI if
> Case 1: Its coming with its own radar switched off and relying solely on its networking with AWACS.
> Case 2: Its coming with its own radar switched on at max power out-put
> 
> Thanks in advance Sir.



Hello, this is not indian mki Thread so maybe tell your friend to post it in indian Thread.


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## Rajput_Pakistani

Luftwaffe said:


> Hello, this is not indian mki Thread so maybe tell your friend to post it in indian Thread.



Dear i have asked this question here because i think it is related to Network Centric warfare, the heart of which is Pakistani AEW system. Indian claims of detecting fighter size aircraft out at the range of 200kms or more.. and then trying to degrade performance of JF-17 radar, which can detect fighter at mere 105kms.

Got my point? 

and my friend? i haven't got any friend here yet.


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## gambit

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> @gambit
> 
> Sir, few questions regarding air-borne radars. Indians claim that their *MKI is a mini-AWACS*.


First...I can put myself on a hot air balloon, put on pair of binocs, and call myself an 'AWACS' if I wanted to.

Airborne Warning And Control System (AWACS) is a conceptual label, not necessarily restricted to an aircraft, although, based upon what we want, we designed an aircraft to fit that conceptual label so eventually a particular aircraft with certain hardware specifically manufactured to observe and direct became synonymous with the initials AWACS.

So can the Indians say the MKI is a 'mini-AWACS'? Yes, but so can I when I place myself in a hot air balloon and equipped with only a pair of binocs. The MKI will just be a far better AWACS than I.



Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Sir, kindly shed some light on how a war-plane itself expose to opposing side, when it switch on its Radar or try to track a target at longer ranges with maximum power output?
> 
> What will be the difference of tracking a MKI if
> Case 1: Its coming with its own radar switched off and relying solely on its networking with AWACS.
> Case 2: Its coming with its own radar switched on at max power out-put
> 
> Thanks in advance Sir.


The MKI in 'Case 2' will be the same as if a person is holding a powerful hand torchlight in the dark.

Let me put it this way...And this is how I explained to my trainees a long time ago...

Assume 5 men completely blindfolded in a typical playground. Assume a 6th man in a tall building nearby with a pair of binocs observing the playground. Assume all are in radio communication with each other. The observer in the building will be directing each man -- down in the playground -- on how many steps to take, turn how many degrees to which direction, how fast are the steps, how long to walk, and even how long are the paces.

Next...We are going to put the entire environment into complete darkness and give the observer a powerful search light. Each of the 5 men in the playground is also equipped with his own flashlight but they are ordered to keep the lights off. It is still the responsibility of the observer (AWACS) to direct the travels of the 5 men but now being in the dark, it is much more difficult, less efficient, and longer for any man to move anywhere without colliding into any structures common to a playground. The 5 men must have complete trust in the observer because their mission is to cross the entire playground area without colliding into any structure and be detected by anyone not part of the group.

This is the concept of the AWACS.

Being blindfolded is the equivalent of having your own radar on 'standby'. Not 'off' but 'standby'. Your own search light is the 'transmit' half of radar detection. Your eyes make up the 'receive' half of radar detection. So being on 'standby' means your finger is on the light's button ready to turn it on as well as ready to remove the blindfold. Then being in the dark is the equivalent of your eyes not working in the non-visible wavelength spectrum. So when you turn on your flashlight, it is the equivalent of being able to see in that spectrum.

So if any of the 5 men in the playground turn on his flashlight and remove his blindfold so he can see where he is going *ON HIS OWN*, other observers can immediately see and track this man.

Bottom line is that in a networked airborne combat situation, you must have the utmost confidence in your AWACS 'master' by simple virtue that he have the most powerful 'search light' to see the furthest. In return, the AWACS must work hard to earn the complete trust of the fighters because it is they who does the actual combat and protects the AWACS. The AWACS must provide information accurately and quickly when queried and must have adequate projections of a particular conflict area under his observation but this very difficult to quantify on what is 'adequate'.

This is why the USAF and USN exercise this relationship constantly. Debriefing can take literally hours, depending on the complexity of the flying day. We make all kinds of mistakes, from minor to major. We take conceptual as well as operational risks to explore how to better cope with the dynamics of air combat and there is no way to do this outside of real flying.

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## sancho

gambit said:


> ...So if any of the 5 men in the playground turn on his flashlight and remove his blindfold so he can see where he is going *ON HIS OWN*, other observers can immediately see and track this man.



But the advantage of AWACS or the Mini AWACS concept is not only to see (more), but also to command the others. Just as you explained in the first part:



> The observer in the building will be directing each man -- down in the playground



Which is the crucial point, since if the 5 turn on their torches they might see a part of the playground on their own, but will act on their own too, while the AWACS / Mini AWACS concept requires the observer that can see more of the whole playground to guide the others not only in direction, but also in their tactics.
That's what happend in the Cope India exercises for example, where Su 30s guided Migs thanks to better view of the playground and told them when to engage and when to retreat. The term mini AWACS is nonsense of course, but the concept of data sharing is quiet normal for fighter forces, be it in active passive combos, or from more capabable to less capable fighters. 
That's why US forces considering the use of F22 / teen fighter combos. The earlier will take advantage of stealth to get ahead of the followers and remain undetected, but will be able to gather a lot of sensor data, which then will be shared with the teens. The F22 will be the "forwarded" observer and direct the teens to engage, or to retreat, just like the Su 30, or an AWACS would do, only from a different position.


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## gambit

sancho said:


> But the advantage of AWACS or the Mini AWACS concept is not only to see (more), but also to command the others.


In the early days of the AWACS, the focus was on 'Early Warning' over 'Control', as in AEW&C. Then as the hardware and operation matures, the conceptual risk taking took us to where 'Control' is equal burden on both controller and clients to understand the final goal of the concept in the first place.


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## air marshal



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## Safriz

^^ what type is this???


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## Bratva

Safriz said:


> ^^ what type is this???



Kia howa Safriz bhai, ZDK03 hai ye

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## Safriz

mafiya said:


> Kia howa Safriz bhai, ZDK03 hai ye



Oh yes... 
I was commenting from my mobile so couldn't figure out...


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## TOPGUN

air marshal said:


>



What a beauty .. I actually think it is a good looking bird


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## Liquidmetal

air marshal said:


>



We would love to see the internal/cabin images to ascertain the layout and sophistication of this bird @Windjammer et al any chance of getting some internal pics? Please.


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## Saleem

I dont know why u are excited---all the AWACS were destroyed in the raid.....the air force leadership is sold out--they cant even arrange proper base security --what do you expect with asif the Z man appointing commanders....


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## Pinnacle

Erieyes had to play a key role with our F-16s. Currently we only operate one Saab-2000 as one was totally blown two were badly damaged by the terrorists...
Now what would be the next plan of PAF ? 
It will be very difficult for PAF to operate only one aircraft for F-16s... Will they order more Erieyes or not ?? 
Can someone plz tell me that can f-16s be linked with zdk-03 ??


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## rohailmalhi

danish falcon said:


> Erieyes had to play a key role with our F-16s. Currently we only operate one Saab-2000 as one was totally blown two were badly damaged by the terrorists...
> Now what would be the next plan of PAF ?
> It will be very difficult for PAF to operate only one aircraft for F-16s... Will they order more Erieyes or not ??
> Can someone plz tell me that can f-16s be linked with zdk-03 ??



I think they the damaged one are being repaired and PAF is converting the jet for training in to ERIEYE. So the total number will come again to 4.


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## Viper0011.

sancho said:


> That's why US forces considering the use of F22 / teen fighter combos. The earlier will take advantage of stealth to get ahead of the followers and remain undetected, but will be able to gather a lot of sensor data, which then will be shared with the teens. The F22 will be the "forwarded" observer and direct the teens to engage, or to retreat, just like the Su 30, or an AWACS would do, only from a different position.




Actually, the concept is different. Sensor's are of course inter connected and that was the case way before the adoption of the F-22. However, the F-22 plays the most important role as an offensive jet. It's job is to share data and that's just a secondary aspect of the sensors. But the primary option is to eliminate threat and achieve dominance while remain stealthy.

Remember, three f-22's fully armed can literally take out a squadron of the most advanced 4.5 generation jets before they can be seen or tracked. That gives the 'strike package' the ideal and the safest option to conduct its operation. Also, the F-22 can go in, completely waste an deference system and sensors to ashes and remain airborne for additional offensive support, paving the way for other air, naval and land assets to move in and do their job. Once the mission is completed, and the F-22 is flying CAP, then it'll move to its secondary role, i.e. providing information. But here's the difference, if it didn't do that, even then all the necessary information is still being collected through AWACS, UAV's, Sats, IR and long range sensors on board other assets. For example, the F-35 can track a missile or launch of a missile from over 800 miles away, identifying the enemy position, track assets, etc.


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## nomi007

Liquidmetal said:


> We would love to see the internal/cabin images to ascertain the layout and sophistication of this bird @Windjammer et al any chance of getting some internal pics? Please.


cockpit of kj-200
hope cockpit of zdk-03 is same

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## SQ8

Saleem said:


> I dont know why u are excited---all the AWACS were destroyed in the raid.....the air force leadership is sold out--they cant even arrange proper base security --what do you expect with asif the Z man appointing commanders....



Tell me, if they were ALL destroyed.. then how were able to partake in Saffron Bandit which came after the attack and even appeared on TV?
CGI??

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## SQ8

Saleem said:


> I dont know why u are excited---all the AWACS were destroyed in the raid.....the air force leadership is sold out--they cant even arrange proper base security --what do you expect with asif the Z man appointing commanders....



Tell me, if they were ALL destroyed.. then how were able to partake in Saffron Bandit which came after the attack and even appeared on TV?
CGI??


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## nomi007



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## Jango

Can somebody explain to me the purpose of that wavy underside paint scheme on the ZDK 03...why the waves?


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Can somebody explain to me the purpose of that wavy underside paint scheme on the ZDK 03...why the waves?



From underneath, it gives the appearance of or blends with clouds or grey sky.

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## Nishan_101

nomi007 said:


> JZY-01



So it has a fixed rodome....


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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> cockpit of kj-200
> hope cockpit of zdk-03 is same



They are both based on the same platform i.e series 600, having same modifications such as glass cockpit, increased fuel capacity, range and others.

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## Windjammer

nabil_05 said:


> They are both based on the same platform i.e series 600, having same modifications such as glass cockpit, increased fuel capacity, range and others.



So is it safe to assume that the work stations inside the ZDK-03 will be similar as this KJ-2000 Interior.

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## Jango

How many work stations are there in a ZDK 03?

There are 5 in a Saab 2000 if I am not mistaken.


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## Dazzler

there u go...

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## nomi007

Nishan_101 said:


> So it has a fixed rodome....



latest image

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## Liquidmetal

nabil_05 said:


> there u go...



Is this really the interior of our ZDK03? if so, wow! is that 9 stations I see? Thanks for the pics buddy.

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## nomi007

WJ-6C turboprop engine

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## bigest

AWACs? of course you need,if not ,you will fall brhind in the compashion on india.


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## Jango

A very Hi Res image...

BTW, notice the serial number. Only 2 were delivered to PAF, one is undergoing crew familiarization and other trials...so this pic is probably in China.
@fatman17 can elaborate more on their status.

11-001 and 11-002 are the delivered examples.

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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> A very Hi Res image...
> 
> BTW, notice the serial number. Only 2 were delivered to PAF, one is undergoing crew familiarization and other trials...so this pic is probably in China.
> @fatman17 can elaborate more on their status.
> 
> 11-001 and 11-002 are the delivered examples.



Woah .. Akhir kahan tak chupao ge PAF walon ... aik na ik din HI.RES samnay aa he jaye ge. 

BTW picture deatils says it was photographed in Pakistan. Photos: Shaanxi Y-8/ZDK-03 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> A very Hi Res image...
> 
> BTW, notice the serial number. Only 2 were delivered to PAF, one is undergoing crew familiarization and other trials...so this pic is probably in China.
> @fatman17 can elaborate more on their status.
> 
> 11-001 and 11-002 are the delivered examples.



u r correct sir...

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## Munir

I heard a while ago that it was there to test communications with ground stations and new JF17 avionics. Not sure whether it is correct.

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## Jango

Munir said:


> I heard a while ago that it was there to test communications with ground stations and new JF17 avionics. Not sure whether it is correct.



You mean it went from Pakistan to China?

AFAIK, we haven't yet received the 3rd ZDK and it hasn't come to Pakistan yet.


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## aziqbal

3rd is in China which was built last year I guess it's ready to be handed over this year while the 4th has been produced this year, we might get both this year or atleats the one


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## Munir

nuclearpak said:


> You mean it went from Pakistan to China?
> 
> AFAIK, we haven't yet received the 3rd ZDK and it hasn't come to Pakistan yet.



No not delivered. stayed there for trials. Just checked Ailrliners.net. The photographer is active in China. But he writes incorrect location (Pakistan).


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## fatman17

The first ZDK-03 (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 11-002) was delivered some time later. The delivery of third ZDK-03 (12-003) is pending in May 2013.

- Last Updated 5/28/13

on its way...

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> The first ZDK-03 (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 11-002) was delivered some time later. The delivery of third ZDK-03 (12-003) is pending in May 2013.
> 
> - Last Updated 5/28/13
> 
> on its way...



3 days left!!!

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## nomi007

nuclearpak said:


> A very Hi Res image...
> 
> BTW, notice the serial number. Only 2 were delivered to PAF, one is undergoing crew familiarization and other trials...so this pic is probably in China.
> @fatman17 can elaborate more on their status.
> 
> 11-001 and 11-002 are the delivered examples.



2nd awacs

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## fatman17

crew training is a slow and complicated affair - i remember when the PN atlantics were inducted, it took some time for crews to get familiarised with the onboard equipment and french technicians were based at karachi for some time. its gotten better as the forces induct 'techies' into its ranks.

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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> crew training is a slow and complicated affair - i remember when the PN atlantics were inducted, it took some time for crews to get familiarised with the onboard equipment and french technicians were based at karachi for some time. its gotten better as the forces induct 'techies' into its ranks.



Did Saab AWAC training took such time?

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## Tehmasib

12-003

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## razgriz19

Tehmasib said:


> 12-003



thank god they finally made a hangar for it!


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## Jango

razgriz19 said:


> thank god they finally made a hangar for it!



This is pretty old, look it up on Google Earth.


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## fatman17

mafiya said:


> Did Saab AWAC training took such time?



on the job training of crews continues....


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## BATMAN

razgriz19 said:


> thank god they finally made a hangar for it!



Hanger made of tin sheets! Its more of a sun / strom shade.


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## razgriz19

BATMAN said:


> Hanger made of tin sheets! Its more of a sun / strom shade.



True, but its still much better than just making them sit on the tarmac


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## fatman17

Wing Cdr Asim, OC 4Squadron is in China to receive the 3rd ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle......

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## Creder

fatman17 said:


> Wing Cdr Asim, OC 4Squadron is in China to receive the 3rd ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle......



fatman17 do we have any saab left or were they all torched ?


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## fatman17

Creder said:


> fatman17 do we have any saab left or were they all torched ?



sir this is a oft repeated issue discussed, re-discussed on this forum - 1 a/c was destroyed.

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## Creder

fatman17 said:


> sir this is a oft repeated issue discussed, re-discussed on this forum - 1 a/c was destroyed.



Just bringing myself up do date, my thanks.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> Wing Cdr Asim, OC 4Squadron is in China to receive the 3rd ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle......



Can we expect some 'exclusive' pics???


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Can we expect some 'exclusive' pics???



hope is eternal....

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> hope is eternal....



BTW, there was a PAF IL-78 that recently visited Chengdu...was that flight connected with this team going there for receiving the a/c?


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> BTW, there was a PAF IL-78 that recently visited Chengdu...was that flight connected with this team going there for receiving the a/c?



its quite possible but i dont have any news on this....sometimes they use PIA also....


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## Liquidmetal

fatman17 said:


> sir this is a oft repeated issue discussed, re-discussed on this forum - 1 a/c was destroyed.



We don't know is the answer. What we do know is this:

At least 1 saab is operational.

At least 1 saab destroyed to be replaced by the training aircraft into an awac.

We have rumours that the remaining two were damaged but repairable and Sweden has been requested to get the aircraft back upto flying and operational conditions.

There are also a few good men here that state 3 saabs destroyed. 

Either way our confirmed status is 1 alive and 1 destroyed.


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## nomi007

can our awacs enage anti awacs missle
like K-100


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## mylovepakistan

nomi007 said:


> can our awacs enage anti awacs missle
> like K-100



i think these missile fired at a long distance actually are NOT a big threat to awacs,
lower g-limits of missile and powerful ECM of awacs....


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## Jango

@fatman17...third ZDK-03 arrived?


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## Liquidmetal

Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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## nomi007

nuclearpak said:


> @fatman17...third ZDK-03 arrived?


ALLAH PAK pakistan ko in ki hifazat ki toufiq atta farmahe
Ameen


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## Bratva

@Oscar I guess these are few of many indigenous equipments which will be used in making western and non western platforms talks with each other or if they have talk through terminal.

http://carepvtltd.com/Communication_Systems/cms.php?id=Taeerun

http://carepvtltd.com/Communication..._Data_Rate_Telemetry_Transmitter_and_Receiver

http://carepvtltd.com/Communication_Systems/cms.php?id=Bulk_Encryption_System


I have read your previous post and now completely understand how PAF repackage the whole packet so non Link-16 system can generate a compatible Link-16 packet. SDR is capable to operate up to application layer. Impressive


And you raised concerns on encryptions in that post. AES-256 will be used to encrypt the packet and it takes time and lot of processing power to break it and it will not be a piece of cake for indians to break this encryption

And Data rate provided by device is enormous. With this data rate, you can easily handle voice and data traffic of up to 20-30 aircrafts simultaneously. Albeit video traffic will cause problem

All in all,,, It's pleasant developments that such advancements are made in data link field by CARE and PAF team


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> @Oscar I guess these are few of many indigenous equipments which will be used in making western and non western platforms talks with each other or if they have talk through terminal.
> 
> http://carepvtltd.com/Communication_Systems/cms.php?id=Taeerun
> 
> http://carepvtltd.com/Communication..._Data_Rate_Telemetry_Transmitter_and_Receiver
> 
> http://carepvtltd.com/Communication_Systems/cms.php?id=Bulk_Encryption_System
> 
> 
> I have read your previous post and now completely understand how PAF repackage the whole packet so non Link-16 system can generate a compatible Link-16 packet. SDR is capable to operate up to application layer. Impressive
> 
> 
> And you raised concerns on encryptions in that post. *AES-256 *will be used to encrypt the packet and it takes time and lot of processing power to break it and it will not be a piece of cake for indians to break this encryption
> 
> And Data rate provided by device is enormous. With this data rate, you can easily handle voice and data traffic of up to 20-30 aircrafts simultaneously. Albeit video traffic will cause problem
> 
> All in all,,, It's pleasant developments that such advancements are made in data link field by CARE and PAF team



Tested, but not really needed..


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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Tested, but not really needed..



due to? eats up bandwidth? take time to encrypt packets? or a more accustomed and robust encryption is being developed ? or lesser AES-128 will be used?


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> due to? eats up bandwidth? take time to encrypt packets? or a more accustomed and robust encryption is being developed ? or lesser AES-128 will be used?



Due to the same reason you dont need a huge engine for the JF-17. Would be great.. but really is not needed to get the job done well.

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## nomi007

1st hd image of earlier zdk-03





http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CQsctEW2uic/Ub1HDMvKwTI/AAAAAAAAado/-lzuZBuNBrU/s1600/Chinese%C2%A0Y-8W++KJ-500+AEW&C%C2%A03-sided+Active+Electronically+Scanned+Array+%28AESA%29+array+%282%29.jpg

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## aziqbal

That is the original Y-8 platform but the rotodome radar is said to be a more advanced model than the ZDK-03 which is in development for a medium sized AWACS for the PLAAF to compliment the larger KJ-2000 and balance beam KJ-200, designated KJ-300/500


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## ice_man

Liquidmetal said:


> We don't know is the answer. What we do know is this:
> 
> At least 1 saab is operational.
> 
> At least 1 saab destroyed to be replaced by the training aircraft into an awac.
> 
> We have rumours that the remaining two were damaged but repairable and Sweden has been requested to get the aircraft back upto flying and operational conditions.
> 
> There are also a few good men here that state 3 saabs destroyed.
> 
> Either way our confirmed status is 1 alive and 1 destroyed.



and is the one destroyed being replaced ?


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## Liquidmetal

s


ice_man said:


> and is the one destroyed being replaced ?



The rumour is that the confirmed destroyed Erieye will be replaced. The replacement will be the Saab 2000 aircraft that was obtained for training purposes and was the first Saab to be given to PAF in the Erieye program. It is understandable that PAF is rather quiet on confirming anything in case it gives succour to the enemies of the state. So we can only make educated guesses. 

The real Q is can the PAF get the other 2/3 aircraft if as many people believe that we have lost more than 1 possibly 3 dead. If that is true 1. The PAF should hang it's head in shame. 2. It is unlikely we can afford to buy additional radars and platforms. This bird was a huge force multiplier and had in an instance transforemd the PAF's eyes and ears into enemy territory and hence the loss is greater still. A nation blinded.


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## nomi007

i think it was better for us to get latest jas gripen ng rather than f-16 block 52


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## Jango

nomi007 said:


> i think it was better for us to get latest jas gripen ng rather than f-16 block 52



Wrong move for multiple reasons, the main one being that yould be getting a totally new aircraft type at a time when your economy is down.

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## Liquidmetal

nomi007 said:


> i think it was better for us to get latest jas gripen ng rather than f-16 block 52



I think you are in the wrong thread regarding the Gripen NG, but thanks for the Saab/Erieye picture, I was under the impression that PAF was the only customer for the Saab 2000/Erieye, so is this a PAF bird next to the Gripen. 

As for the Q of F16 Block 52+ vs Gripen NG, the ans is very clear. F16 over a yet to be born NG. If it is good enough for the Israelis it is good enough for us.


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## nomi007

may be not posted before

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## razgriz19

Liquidmetal said:


> I think you are in the wrong thread regarding the Gripen NG, but thanks for the Saab/Erieye picture, I was under the impression that PAF was the only customer for the Saab 2000/Erieye, so is this a PAF bird next to the Gripen.
> 
> As for the Q of F16 Block 52+ vs Gripen NG, the ans is very clear. F16 over a yet to be born NG. If it is good enough for the Israelis it is good enough for us.



NOT a SAAB 2000.
Saab 340 with Eriye system.
Many Air forces operate 340s.


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## amanwas

I think we should go for China.


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## nomi007

today i saw saab training aircraft over islamabad
nice moment for me

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## nomi007



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## Arsalan

no news about the third ZDK-03 arrival!
Have this been kept quite or the delivery is delayed? any reason?

i have tried but couldn't get the story.


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## hassan1

ZDK-03

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## nomi007




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## nomi007

impressive look of saab 2000 cockpit

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## Imran Khan

very simple cockpit man but modern


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## nomi007

pakitan also use saab for returning peoples afrom saudia in past

remember the heroine scandal case

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## Jango

nomi007 said:


> pakitan also use saab for returning peoples afrom saudia in past
> 
> remember the heroine scandal case



Who are these folks coming off the plane?


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## nomi007

nuclearpak said:


> Who are these folks coming off the plane?


sir this Pakistani family arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of Smuggling Heroin


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## rohailmalhi

Liquidmetal said:


> s
> 
> The rumour is that the confirmed destroyed Erieye will be replaced. The replacement will be the Saab 2000 aircraft that was obtained for training purposes and was the first Saab to be given to PAF in the Erieye program. It is understandable that PAF is rather quiet on confirming anything in case it gives succour to the enemies of the state. So we can only make educated guesses.
> 
> The real Q is can the PAF get the other 2/3 aircraft if as many people believe that we have lost more than 1 possibly 3 dead. If that is true 1. The PAF should hang it's head in shame. 2. It is unlikely we can afford to buy additional radars and platforms. This bird was a huge force multiplier and had in an instance transforemd the PAF's eyes and ears into enemy territory and hence the loss is greater still. A nation blinded.



It is confirmed that 1 is totally dead and other are damaged but in repairable condition.Repairs are done and i think the delivery of the replacement is on the way. Now all of our Erieye are insured as well.

So i guess nation is not that blind after all.

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## nomi007



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## ice_man

fatman17 said:


> Wing Cdr Asim, OC 4Squadron is in China to receive the 3rd ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle......



sir jee any pictures?? and are these planes every flying about? haven't heard much of them or their capabilities.


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## shanixee

jamesseo89 said:


> Does PAF looking to get more newer Block of Saab-2000 AEW&Cs.



NO.....................!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jamesseo89

Then buying more Chinese ones. Better for Suparco, NESCOM, KRL and PAC(avionics division) to join France or Italy on Sonar, Radar and Optical/Laser sensor development so that we can do sensors for weapons, equipments, AEW&Cs/Air Defence and for other roles too...


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## fatman17

ice_man said:


> sir jee any pictures?? and are these planes every flying about? haven't heard much of them or their capabilities.



their AOR is the arabian sea and makran coastline.


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## nomi007

jamesseo89 said:


> Does PAF looking to get more newer Block of Saab-2000 AEW&Cs.


we already using 2nd hand saab 2000
production of saab 2000 is ended


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## Arsalan

The Third ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle have not arrived yet?? or is this just that they are keeping it quite after the Kamra Airbase attack incident?
there have been no confirmed report on the third AWACS arriving in Pakistan while there were rumors about the End June delivery going on!

Any new on this?


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## nomi007




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## Najam Khan

Arsalan said:


> The Third ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle have not arrived yet?? or is this just that they are keeping it quite after the Kamra Airbase attack incident?
> there have been no confirmed report on the third AWACS arriving in Pakistan while there were rumors about the End June delivery going on!
> 
> Any new on this?



I believe it is not delivered yet.
Kamra incident aside, I think PAF should align profiles of ZDK-03/Saab-2000 AEW&C with blinders Falcons. Such assets should be kept to limited sites, with access to limited personnel. Similar changes should be done in their routine operations.

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## nomi007

its close look to three AESA antennas of zdk-03


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## fjavaid

nomi007 said:


> its close look to three AESA antennas of zdk-03



Thats doesnt seem to ZDK03's rotodoom ...ZDK03 most likely has Two Arrays ....see the HD pic in above post ..


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## nomi007

fjavaid said:


> Thats doesnt seem to ZDK03's rotodoom ...ZDK03 most likely has Two Arrays ....see the HD pic in above post ..


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## nomi007

China's New Generation Y-9 AEW&C Aircraft Revealed
China's New Generation Y-9 Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) aircraft which will offer 360º radar coverage with its Three sided active electronically scanned array (AESA) Radar.
This new Airborne Early Warning and Control System looks to improve on the Sino-Pak ZDK-03 Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) Karakoram Eagle which uses rotating Radar dome to provide 360º radar coverage.

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## Black Eagle 90

So how many AEW&C does PAF has.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Black Eagle 90 said:


> So how many AEW&C does PAF has.



four saab AEWACs were ordered and delivered 1 got knocked up so 3 saabs awacs

+ fourZDK-03 awacs were ordered from china 2 have been so far delivered

so we currently have 5 awacs


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## Armstrong

@Oscar @Arsalan @Najam Khan @Hyperion @Aeronaut @Tempest II @Dazzler : 

Suppose that we're at war with India & we'd want to maintain round the clock surveillance of Pakistani Airspace & perhaps *up to* a 100 km into Indian Airspace just for the latter to act as a buffer so as to increase our response time !

How many AWACs would be need to both *(i)* provide full coverage of Pakistani Airspace & perhaps *up to* a 100 km coverage of the Indian Airspace & *(ii)* to maintain a round the clock presence (accounting for the sorties & everything that would go into that equation) in doing this ?

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## Arsalan

Armstrong said:


> @Oscar @Arsalan @Najam Khan @Hyperion @Aeronaut @Tempest II @Dazzler :
> 
> Suppose that we're at war with India & we'd want to maintain round the clock surveillance of Pakistani Airspace & perhaps *up to* a 100 km into Indian Airspace just for the latter to act as a buffer so as to increase our response time !
> 
> How many AWACS would be need to both *(i)* provide full coverage of Pakistani Airspace & perhaps *up to* a 100 km coverage of the Indian Airspace & *(ii)* to maintain a round the clock presence (accounting for the sorties & everything that would go into that equation) in doing this ?




As per my idea, we need to keep 3 to 4 aircraft airborne to cover all of our eastern border, this is considering the border to be around 1200 km aerial distance and range of ZDK-03 and Erieye in the range of 400 km ( ALSO NOTE THAT AWACS ARE NOT A STATIONARY RADAR, THE MOBILITY ALLOWS FOR MORE AREA TO BE COVERED AND KEPT IN CHECK THEN THE RADAR RANGE) This means that a total fleet of some 7 - 8 AWACS with 3 to 4 airborne at a time will be enough to cover our border and keep an eye inside enemy territory.

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## Armstrong

Arsalan said:


> AS per my idea, we need to keep 3 to four aircraft airborne to cover all of our eastern border. (NOTE THAT AWACS ARE NOT A STATIONARY RADAR, THE MOBILITY ALLOWS FOR MORE AREA TO BE COVERED AND KEPT IN CHECK THEN THE RADAR RANGE) This means that a total fleet of some 7 - 8 AWACS with 3 to 4 airborne at a time will be enough to cover our border and keep an eye inside enemy territory.



Hmmmn, a second question comes to mind - Those, lets say, 4 AWACs would require a 3-4, lets say 4, Aircraft Fighter Escort as well ! Assuming that that job would be delegated to the Jf-17, that would translate to 16 Jf-17 to be delegated for that every time ! 

How many Jf-17s would we require in total for them to be delegated for this task alone ? 40 or something ?


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## Jango

Armstrong said:


> Hmmmn, a second question comes to mind - Those, lets say, 4 AWACs would require a 3-4, lets say 4, Aircraft Fighter Escort as well ! Assuming that that job would be delegated to the Jf-17, that would translate to 16 Jf-17 to be delegated for that every time !
> 
> How many Jf-17s would we require in total for them to be delegated for this task alone ? 40 or something ?



Why would they require a 4 aircraft escort in PK airspace?

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## Hyperion

Depends on a whole lot of different thing. Range of the radar, type of the airborne radar, look and track angle capability, networking capability of the said platforms to form an effective search grid.... etc etc.... 

Best guess, with the specs I had read for the Swedish systems, 5 - 7 aircraft airborne at any given time. So do the calculations accordingly, how many will we need to keep an effective watch, how many in backup..... etc etc etc.....? ? ?

In a "optimal-fantasy" scenario, I'd guess 21 aircraft... replaced @ every 5 years. Now is that going to happen? Depends if we hit some major oil deposits or some rare minerals, or economy improves to an extent... well, well, if wishes were...... 



Armstrong said:


> @Oscar @Arsalan @Najam Khan @Hyperion @Aeronaut @Tempest II @Dazzler :
> 
> Suppose that we're at war with India & we'd want to maintain round the clock surveillance of Pakistani Airspace & perhaps *up to* a 100 km into Indian Airspace just for the latter to act as a buffer so as to increase our response time !
> 
> How many AWACs would be need to both *(i)* provide full coverage of Pakistani Airspace & perhaps *up to* a 100 km coverage of the Indian Airspace & *(ii)* to maintain a round the clock presence (accounting for the sorties & everything that would go into that equation) in doing this ?

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## Armstrong

nuclearpak said:


> Why would they require a 4 aircraft escort in PK airspace?



I had assumed that in times of War they could be sitting ducks for Indian Aircrafts were they (the AWACs) to venture closer to the Border, owing to both of our respective Forward Bases to be right on top of each other ! 

I had assumed further that instead of letting lone F-16s or Jf-17s to engage in Continued Air Patrols across the length & breadth of Pakistan or the border areas it would make more sense to have an AWAC Group do that from a relatively safer distance & exponentially more insight owing to its larger detection range - Hence why it maybe exposed to danger & it might not be always feasible to have F-7s or Jf-17s on stand by in the nearest base especially if it takes a matter of minutes, sometimes even less, for an aircraft to cross into our territory or ours to cross into theirs, if they are airborne !

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## Jango

As for the numbers thing, if you remember, the original deal was for around 6 AWACS if I am not wrong. 

Then later the deal got downsized to 4 Saab-2000. Some AVM said that the Pakistani airspace can be sufficiently covered with 4 AWACS, and with the ZDK-03's covering some area in the south and the sea, it is covered,.

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## Hyperion

What comes to my mind is cost/benefit of such a wish-list! Why even think so deep? At the moment we have a gazillion more pressing needs. As far as security is concerned, trust me no one is coming to attack. We have one final option that no sane nation on the planet would want us to test. 



Armstrong said:


> Hmmmn, a second question comes to mind - Those, lets say, 4 AWACs would require a 3-4, lets say 4, Aircraft Fighter Escort as well ! Assuming that that job would be delegated to the Jf-17, that would translate to 16 Jf-17 to be delegated for that every time !
> 
> How many Jf-17s would we require in total for them to be delegated for this task alone ? 40 or something ?

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Depends on a whole lot of different thing. Range of the radar, type of the airborne radar, look and track angle capability, networking capability of the said platforms to form an effective search grid.... etc etc....
> 
> Best guess, with the specs I had read for the Swedish systems, 5 - 7 aircraft airborne at any given time. So do the calculations accordingly, how many will we need to keep an effective watch, how many in backup..... etc etc etc.....? ? ?
> 
> In a "optimal-fantasy" scenario, I'd guess 21 aircraft... replaced @ every 5 years. Now is that going to happen? Depends if we hit some major oil deposits or some rare minerals, or economy improves to an extent... well, well, if wishes were......



*Khan Sahib*, koi nectar of the gods ki hiii exports ka socheiii - Woh bhii koi Petrodollars se kum kamaiii ho gii hamareii liyeiii ? 

That doesn't look good !  

We have neither the resources nor the foreseeable future resources to have 5-7 airborne at a time with them being replaced every 5 years ! 



Hyperion said:


> What comes to my mind is cost/benefit of such a wish-list! Why even think so deep? At the moment we have a gazillion more pressing needs. As far as security is concerned, trust me no one is coming to attack. We have *one final option* that no sane nation on the planet would want us to test.



I was thinking more along the lines of a re-appropriation of some funds from the Army to the Airforce & the Navy as opposed to wholly financing it through budgetary increments ! 

You mean dropping @Marshmallow on to our enemies - She'd eat everyone & everything that moves - Geneva Convention forbids us to be that cruel even to our enemies !

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## Hyperion

My dear not just that, you need to keep the aircraft on rotation for a million different reasons. 5 - 7 don't cut it. You need 5 - 7 AT A TIME to be airborne. What about the others? What about the operational costs? What about maintenance costs? etc etc etc....

Meri jan, what will you do?

1. Solve energy crisis.
2. Stem sectarian violence.
3. Annihilate insurgency
4. Build dams (#1)

And the list goes on and on and on and on.... all of these come with a huge price-tag.... so so so ... what will it be my friend?



Armstrong said:


> *Khan Sahib*, koi nectar of the gods ki hiii exports ka socheiii - Woh bhii koi Petrodollars se kum kamaiii ho gii hamareii liyeiii ?
> 
> That doesn't look good !
> 
> We have neither the resources nor the foreseeable future resources to have 5-7 airborne at a time with them being replaced every 5 years !

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> My dear not just that, you need to keep the aircraft on rotation for a million different reasons. 5 - 7 don't cut it. You need 5 - 7 AT A TIME to be airborne. What about the others? What about the operational costs? What about maintenance costs? etc etc etc....
> 
> Meri jan, what will you do?
> 
> 1. Solve energy crisis.
> 2. Stem sectarian violence.
> 3. Annihilate insurgency
> 4. Build dams (#1)
> 
> And the list goes on and on and on and on.... all of these come with a huge price-tag.... so so so ... what will it be my friend?



Yaraaa I was reading up about it in Wiki & they had quoted some NATO Report or something as having said : _Modern AEW&C systems can detect aircraft from up to 250 miles (400 km) away, well out of range of most surface-to-air missiles. One AEW&C aircraft flying at 30,000 feet (9,100 m) can cover an area of 120,460 square miles (312,000 km2). *Three such aircraft in overlapping orbits can cover the whole of Central Europe.*_

Assuming the above is true can't we use 2 or maybe 3 at a time & have around 7-8 in total to the job for us !  

We already have 7 or 8 !

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## Hyperion

Pakistan is very slender and tall... 

What's Pakistan's height, from head to toe? Divide that by 400 (as per your research) and you'll get answer to part one. Now multiply those by 2 and add (.5 x to total) = Answer. 



Armstrong said:


> Yaraaa I was reading up about it in Wiki & they had quoted some NATO Report or something as having said : _Modern AEW&C systems can detect aircraft from up to 250 miles (400 km) away, well out of range of most surface-to-air missiles. One AEW&C aircraft flying at 30,000 feet (9,100 m) can cover an area of 120,460 square miles (312,000 km2). *Three such aircraft in overlapping orbits can cover the whole of Central Europe.*_
> 
> Assuming the above is true can't we use 2 or maybe 3 at a time & have around 7-8 in total to the job for us !
> 
> We already have 7 or 8 !

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## Dillinger

Armstrong said:


> Yaraaa I was reading up about it in Wiki & they had quoted some NATO Report or something as having said : _Modern AEW&C systems can detect aircraft from up to 250 miles (400 km) away, well out of range of most surface-to-air missiles. One AEW&C aircraft flying at 30,000 feet (9,100 m) can cover an area of 120,460 square miles (312,000 km2). *Three such aircraft in overlapping orbits can cover the whole of Central Europe.*_
> 
> Assuming the above is true can't we use 2 or maybe 3 at a time & have around 7-8 in total to the job for us !
> 
> We already have 7 or 8 !



Depends on the AEW&C platform in use and the flight path taken, eg. a racetrack patrol. Control of the air environment though will not stem from only having AEW&C platforms performing their tasks- due the oncoming proliferation of LO and VLO platforms- which will make life rather interesting and quite short for many people. The cardinal point would be the maintenance required on such platforms- round the clock surveillance will lead to extended platform fatigue- the platform being used itself may not be able to match the tempo that you're aiming at- they probably won't be able to. So the hypothetical number of having 5-6 platforms airborne at any given time will require a certain number of platforms to be in reserve. Secondly it would be rather pointless to invest in such platforms without first ensuring an adequate ADGE- lest the enemy uses the superior CR of most of its assets to poke and prod the system till it finds a gap, exploits it, ingresses from multiple threat axes to overwhelm the system. Superior numbers can also be used to draw out the escort in order to exploit the opening to terminate the AEW&C platform. As @Hyperion stated- well rounded assets on the ground and in the air riding on a proper networking backbone (i.e. a dedicated, high speed and high data load AF specific network) is what is required.

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## Argus Panoptes

Dillinger said:


> Depends on the AEW&C platform in use and the flight path taken, eg. a racetrack patrol. Control of the air environment though will not stem from only having AEW&C platforms performing their tasks- due the oncoming proliferation of LO and VLO platforms- which will make life rather interesting and quite short for many people. The cardinal point would be the maintenance required on such platforms- round the clock surveillance will lead to extended platform fatigue- the platform being used itself may not be able to match the tempo that you're aiming at- they probably won't be able to. So the hypothetical number of having 5-6 platforms airborne at any given time will require a certain number of platforms to be in reserve. Secondly it would be rather pointless to invest in such platforms without first ensuring an adequate ADGE- lest the enemy uses the superior CR of most of its assets to poke and prod the system till it finds a gap, exploits it, ingresses from multiple threat axes to overwhelm the system. Superior numbers can also be used to draw out the escort in order to exploit the opening to terminate the AEW&C platform. As @Hyperion stated- well rounded assets on the ground and in the air riding on a proper networking backbone (i.e. a dedicated, high speed and high data load AF specific network) is what is required.



The bottom line is that it takes a lot of money to fund these sorts of operations. Lots and lots.

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## Dillinger

@Hyperion Btw, why in good god's name is the Shanxi Y-8F600 listed with a service ceiling of 10300-400 meters? At least the MTOW went up from 61 tonnes to 65. I thought that the PW engines would have fixed that?
@Argus Panoptes Don't be a killjoy, if we stop the arms race then how will me and @Hyperion build our empire over the ashes of the subcontinent?!

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## Armstrong

Argus Panoptes said:


> The bottom line is that it takes a lot of money to fund these sorts of operations. Lots and lots.



Sir aap koiii Dollars hii nahin bhejteiii...kahan seiii funding karooon ?

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## Dillinger

Armstrong said:


> Sir aap koiii Dollars hii nahin bhejteiii...kahan seiii funding karooon ?


 @Hyperion Dress him up as a belly dancer and sell him to some sheikh with a taste for the extremely exotic, that should be a start a far as far as procuring funds in concerned. 

Sorry for the OT post folks, couldn't resist. 

On topic, I think @Oscar sir might be your bet bet for the most relatively accurate answer.

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## SQ8

You dont need 7 AWACS in the air at a time quite simply because you dont need to cover all of Pakistan. Neither the Swedish nor the Chinese assets look to one side only. Also, there are plenty of ground based radars that also cover Pakistan airspace and its their gaps that the AWACS will cover. Considering the actual sensitive or key areas that need covering there will be a requirement of a maximum of 3-4 AWACS during intense operations and 2 otherwise. You dont need to really care if a enemy fighter flies into "trash land". All you need to ensure is that you can tell if they are taking alternative approaches to attack and be able to get fighters to move into that direction.

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## Dillinger

Oscar said:


> You dont need 7 AWACS in the air at a time quite simply because you dont need to cover all of Pakistan. Neither the Swedish nor the Chinese assets look to one side only. Also, there are plenty of ground based radars that also cover Pakistan airspace and its their gaps that the AWACS will cover. Considering the actual sensitive or key areas that need covering there will be a requirement of a maximum of 3-4 AWACS during intense operations and 2 otherwise. You dont need to really care if a enemy fighter flies into "trash land". All you need to ensure is that you can tell if they are taking alternative approaches to attack and be able to get fighters to move into that direction.



How many AEW&C platforms do you wager India would need to cover both fronts?

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## SQ8

Dillinger said:


> How many AEW&C platforms do you wager India would need to cover both fronts?



6.. with what it has.. That would mean having one phalcon on each front.. and 3 of the EMB's on the west and one on the north.

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## SACNo1

china will give your country and people all the help ,i believe

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## Dillinger

Oscar said:


> 6.. with what it has.. That would mean having one phalcon on each front.. and 3 of the EMB's on the west and one on the north.



So why is the IAF so eager to procure 2 more Phalcons, in fact word has it that only the selection of the platform has kept it held up so long. Not to mention they are positive about procuring the bigger follow on AEW&C system to the DRDO/CABS AEW&C once all three are inducted. What would be the point of so many AEW&C assets?

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## Capt.Popeye

Dillinger said:


> So why is the IAF so eager to procure 2 more Phalcons, in fact word has it that only the selection of the platform has kept it held up so long. Not to mention they are positive about procuring the bigger follow on AEW&C system to the DRDO/CABS AEW&C once all three are inducted. What would be the point of so many AEW&C assets?



To maintain a high rate of serviceability. Then to have reserves that can be mobilised as necessary. Also to have some capability on the Maritime Borders if required. Aircraft can intrude from there as well. Plus, AEWACs can track ships also, is'nt it?

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## Dillinger

Capt.Popeye said:


> To maintain a high rate of serviceability. Then to have reserves that can be mobilised as necessary. Also to have some capability on the Maritime Borders if required. Aircraft can intrude from there as well. Plus, AEWACs can track ships also, is'nt it?



Well the IN might require one larger AEW&C to be "lent" to them along with the crew during ops, specially with the CBG. Damn but those CABS AEW&C look neat, no? Anyway this will turn too OT so lets leave it be.

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## Hyperion

Depending on mode of the radar....... besides, don't you have dedicated maritime assets for such patrols?



Capt.Popeye said:


> To maintain a high rate of serviceability. Then to have reserves that can be mobilised as necessary. Also to have some capability on the Maritime Borders if required. Aircraft can intrude from there as well. Plus, AEWACs can track ships also, is'nt it?

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## SQ8

Dillinger said:


> So why is the IAF so eager to procure 2 more Phalcons, in fact word has it that only the selection of the platform has kept it held up so long. Not to mention they are positive about procuring the bigger follow on AEW&C system to the DRDO/CABS AEW&C once all three are inducted. What would be the point of so many AEW&C assets?



To really think into it, I think the IAF needs more AWACS up north. Since the west is still mostly plains which are well covered by the LLDR and Aerostats in any case. Up north is another matter.. unforgiving and uneven terrain requires surveillance that only an airborne radar can effectively provide.

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## Dillinger

Oscar said:


> To really think into it, I think the IAF needs more AWACS up north. Since the west is still mostly plains which are well covered by the LLDR and Aerostats in any case. Up north is another matter.. unforgiving and uneven terrain requires surveillance that only an airborne radar can effectively provide.



True, apparently we've had to put in quite a few gap filler radars along the LAC too and still the powers that be are not satisfied.

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## Capt.Popeye

Hyperion said:


> Depending on mode of the radar....... besides, don't you have dedicated maritime assets for such patrols?



Yes there are. The LRMRs such as the Bears, the Il-38s and now the Poseidons as well as shorter legged Dorniers. But they have little capability to track Aircraft. The Phalcons combine both. Not to mention even mobile land targets. Bigger force multiplier. 
Big is Beautiful

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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> To maintain a high rate of serviceability. Then to have reserves that can be mobilised as necessary. Also to have some capability on the Maritime Borders if required. Aircraft can intrude from there as well. *Plus, AEWACs can track ships also, is'nt it?*



Thats what the P-8I's are there for. Anyway, before we go too much into the IAF rather than the subject matter. What must be said is about the terrain that needs radar coverage.
This is what needs coverage from either side, and in Pakistans case.. not too much of the middle part.

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> To really think into it, I think the IAF needs more AWACS up north. Since the west is still mostly plains which are well covered by the LLDR and Aerostats in any case. Up north is another matter.. unforgiving and uneven terrain requires surveillance that only an airborne radar can effectively provide.



Correcto, Senor Oscar! That is where most of the 67 LLTRs will go apart from another 50 CARs. Then the IA has its own requirements. So the order-book to beef up the Radar systems is quite large. But that program is well underway now.
That will allow more AEWACs to be deployed up North. BTW, some more Aerostats will also find their way there.

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## Dillinger

@Oscar Sir how many ZDK-03s do you have on order? I still don't understand why the sensor systems from one of the damaged Erieye AEW&C can't be salvaged and put on another platform, is it not technically possible or is it not allowed under contract? Could we move our Phalcom sensor system from its current platform on to another?

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## SQ8

Dillinger said:


> @Oscar Sir how many ZDK-03s do you have on order? I still don't understand *why the sensor systems from one of the damaged Erieye AEW&C can't be salvaged and put on another platfor*m, Could we move our Phalcom sensor system from its current platform on to another?



I really cant say anything on the highlighted part 

However, in the end these are all sensor suites that are made to work together in unison. So when radars for the F-22 can be tested in a 757 testbed. I dont see why you cannot transplant the suite from one aircraft to another provided that you know the wiring, the power requirements and the calibration methods. After all, these sensors also take into account what aircraft they are on...and knowing those parameters or rather knowing how to input those parameters into the system is what matters. 
Its like installing a transmission from a car into another, it would work but it was designed from the outset for another car and so a lot of adjustments are required to make that happen. 

There are 4 ZDK-03's ordered on soft loans through one of the Chinese state banks.

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> Thats what the P-8I's are there for. Anyway, before we go too much into the IAF rather than the subject matter. What must be said is about the terrain that needs radar coverage.
> This is what needs coverage from either side, and in Pakistans case.. not too much of the middle part.



That map illustrates the Radar requirements on both sides quite well, @Oscar. It also seems to be good terrain for a first layer of mobile radars backed up with fixed Radar installations stepped back like the older THDs or the newer Swordfish LRTRs. Throw in an Aerostat or two (which are semi-mobile) and the set-up looks good to go. Apart from that Civilian ATC radars have now been cued into the IACCCS. So that works quite ok. Then the AEWACs become 'built-in redundancy' into the system. But one has to remember that the system will not only have to keep looking for Aircraft. But small low-level intruders aka missiles as well. So the IACCCS will use numerous mobile LLTRs in the system. Hence the huge order books for BEL.

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## Dillinger

Oscar said:


> I really cant say anything on the highlighted part
> 
> However, in the end these are all sensor suites that are made to work together in unison. So when radars for the F-22 can be tested in a 757 testbed. I dont see why you cannot transplant the suite from one aircraft to another provided that you know the wiring, the power requirements and the calibration methods. After all, these sensors also take into account what aircraft they are on...and knowing those parameters or rather knowing how to input those parameters into the system is what matters.
> Its like installing a transmission from a car into another, it would work but it was designed from the outset for another car and so a lot of adjustments are required to make that happen.
> 
> There are 4 ZDK-03's ordered on soft loans through one of the Chinese state banks.



Sir, by your count the JFTs also came under a loan, so did the Erieye (right?), now this- add to that the various massive inroads made into your economy by the Chinese. Not that this is a topic for this thread- but what do you think will be the long term result of such a dependency- IF it can be termed as that? If you don't mind then perhaps you could provide the answer in Naswarville.


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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> That map illustrates the Radar requirements on both sides quite well, @Oscar. It also seems to be good terrain for a first layer of mobile radars backed up with fixed Radar installations stepped back like the older THDs or the newer Swordfish LRTRs. Throw in an Aerostat or two (which are semi-mobile) and the set-up looks good to go. Apart from that Civilian ATC radars have now been cued into the IACCCS. So that works quite ok. Then the AEWACs become 'built-in redundancy' into the system. But one has to remember that the system will not only have to keep looking for Aircraft. But small low-level intruders aka missiles as well. So the IACCCS will use numerous mobile LLTRs in the system. Hence the huge order books for BEL.



You can see then how this scenario is similar for the other side as well. There are very little areas for low level intruders to sneak around. Now add the proximity of bases and the picture becomes much clearer.

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> You can see then how this scenario is similar for the other side as well. There are very little areas for low level intruders to sneak around. Now add the proximity of bases and the picture becomes much clearer.



But then methinks that it is better terrain for ground-based radar rather than AEWACs. Even more so; if one (or more) AEWACs gets downed then one gets seriously blinded in that case.


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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> But then methinks that it is better terrain for ground-based radar rather than AEWACs. Even more so; if one (or more) AEWACs gets downed then one gets seriously blinded in that case.


 
East(west for India) front is better for ground based radars.


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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> East(west for India) front is better for ground based radars.


 @Oscar; now that's a thought. Apart from being a more stable and secured option wrt air-based radars. 
Of course there is also the additional option of Space based sensors on Satellites. With their attendant upsides and downsides. It is also part of the full IACCCS plan roll-out going forward.


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## Dillinger

Capt.Popeye said:


> @Oscar; now that's a thought. Apart from being a more stable and secured option wrt air-based radars.
> Of course there is also the additional option of Space based sensors on Satellites. With their attendant upsides and downsides. It is also part of the full IACCCS plan roll-out going forward.



I have always dreamed of India deploying an IMEWS like space based system along with multiple swordfish ground sensors- effectively plunging the whole region into an unprecedented arms race. Don't think any less of me though sir, I am a despicable being- but its in my nature.


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## Capt.Popeye

Dillinger said:


> I have always dreamed of India deploying an IMEWS like space based system along with multiple swordfish ground sensors- effectively plunging the whole region into an unprecedented arms race. Don't think any less of me though sir, I am a despicable being- but its in my nature.



Space-based Sensor systems have both their capabilities and limitations and will never be able to overide or substitute terrestrial-based systems. They just have to be complementary in purpose.

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## Dillinger

Capt.Popeye said:


> Space-based Sensor systems have both their capabilities and limitations and will never be able to overide or substitute terrestrial-based systems. They just have to be complementary in purpose.



Ergo the "along with" part.


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## gambit

Oscar said:


> I really cant say anything on the highlighted part
> 
> However, in the end these are all sensor suites that are made to work together in unison. So *when radars for the F-22 can be tested in a 757 testbed. I dont see why you cannot transplant the suite from one aircraft to another* provided that you know the wiring, the power requirements and the calibration methods. After all, these sensors also take into account what aircraft they are on...and knowing those parameters or rather knowing how to input those parameters into the system is what matters.
> Its like installing a transmission from a car into another, it would work but it was designed from the outset for another car and so a lot of adjustments are required to make that happen.
> 
> There are 4 ZDK-03's ordered on soft loans through one of the Chinese state banks.


You are correct -- in principle.

However...







Radome aberration is a major limiting factor...

Near-Field Testing To Investigate Radome Aberration Phenomena


> Abstract:
> Near-Field testing has been used extensively in the past as a method to determine far-field antenna patterns. Near-field testing has also been used in antenna diagnostic and alignment procedures by reconstruction of the aperture fields. Similar techniques can be employed to *investigate radome induced aberrations* such as variation of the wall transmission coefficient, tip scatter and bulkhead reflections. The advantage of near-field testing is that the various aberrations are localized whereas the far-field pattern is the superposition of all effects. The approach used here is based on the plane wave spectrum and back-protection algorithm. This theoretical foundation is presented along with a discussion of the limitations on resolution. The requirements of a measurement facility and experimental set up are discussed. Several examples are given to illustrate the power of the technique. These include measured results on a radome with thickness variation and scatter from a metallic tip.








Airborne radar testing platforms usually tries to use the actual radome of the intended aircraft, like how the Belgian C-47 test platform have an F-104 radome.

The word 'aberration' does not mean that there is something wrong with the radome, although manufacturing defects can be included, rather, the word is intended to denote design, manufacturing, and usage as variables.

Radome material and shape affects everything in a radar beam, notably its divergence from the intended pointing direction. So even though a radar package can be designed to be used by several fighters, each radome designed for each fighter, such as F-15 or F-16 and not individual tail IDs, will have a unique radome calibrated deviation that must be used by the radar package to assure reasonably accurate performance. Then once there is a known deviation, there will be a distinct part ID for that package so Logistics will not assign an F-16 calibrated package to an F-15 base, even though hardware wise, both F-15 and F-16 packages are identical from the radar system manufacturer.

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## SQ8

gambit said:


> Then once there is a known deviation, there will be a distinct part ID for that package so Logistics will not assign an F-16 calibrated package to an F-15 base, even though hardware wise, both F-15 and F-16 packages are identical from the radar system manufacturer.



So essentially this is why even though they are of different sizes.. the length of the Array or beam on the SAAB Erieye derivatives is essentially the same.


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## gambit

Oscar said:


> So essentially this is why even though they are of different sizes.. the length of the Array or beam on the SAAB Erieye derivatives is essentially the same.


Yes. It looks like all they did was change the mounts. Else the antenna assy. themselves looks the same. The key is first the shape then the size -- of the antenna assy -- that will compel the most (re)calibration.

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## zilahumafazal

Pakistan's Infrastructure development and China's help


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## dexter

PAF's 3rd ZDK-03 Awacs during a test flight in China.

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## hassan1

ZDK-03

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

zdk-03 in background


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## Bratva

Answering a question regarding the induction of Chinese-built ZDK-03 airborne early warning and control (AWACs) aircraft,Chief of Air Staff Air Marshall Tahir Rafiq Butt said it has so far shown that the platforms capabilities work well over sea, plains and mountainous terrain.

PAF must prepare for a two-front situation in war on terror: Air Chief &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## Imran Khan

again stupidity of PAF . they construct ZDK-03 hangers next to each other why they never learn from past damn base is in KMs make at least 1km away each so any future terror attack will be on one . here we have 3 AWACS in 300m round if some terrorist reach in center of these hangers. he just need to fire RPG on three direction and we have over and all

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## VelocuR

Imran Khan said:


> .......................



Dude, take a closer look. It is pretty far from each other, not like neighbors next door.


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> again stupidity of PAF . they construct ZDK-03 hangers next to each other why they never learn from past damn base is in KMs make at least 1km away each so any future terror attack will be on one . here we have 3 AWACS in 300m round if some terrorist reach in center of these hangers. he just need to fire RPG on three direction and we have over and all



Hmmm...to aakhir kar maan hi lia hain jee?

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## Imran Khan

RaptorRX707 said:


> Dude, take a closer look. It is pretty far from each other, not like neighbors next door.



just go google earth and measure them by yourself 



nuclearpak said:


> Hmmm...to aakhir kar maan hi lia hain jee?



jee haan maan gaay wo nhi sudhry gay sir . we lost 3P3-C one saab-2000 and god knows what next . damn they are losers they cant even plan . tps-77 3 awacs and much more they kept it next to road again . i can plan 100 times better then them we seen the line of saab-2000 and that day i admit it that we lost one . now look at here 1mm sheet hanger next to each other . i am damn crazy why navey left empty pasni jeewani ormara and rush in karachi ? they want to stay home or what . ...


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> ... ormara and rush in karachi ? they want to stay home or what . ...



You need to money to make new facilities...and if you don't have money, you can't do anything.

And we all know that Navy gets the least money.

So better to use established facilities at Mehran.


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> You need to money to make new facilities...and if you don't have money, you can't do anything.
> 
> And we all know that Navy gets the least money.
> 
> So better to use established facilities at Mehran.



my dear sir all of their air arm is open under sunshine . they place they lost two P3C they parked now 4 more open p3c . they can buy millions$ birds but can make hangers storages in pasni jeewani ormara or any special new naval base? i will never buy this sir sorry . they need brain and management .


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## VelocuR

Imran Khan said:


> just go google earth and measure them by yourself



You mentioned you have called Obama for your angry, why don't you do same to call Pakistan officers to tell them their stupidity plans.


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> my dear sir all of their air arm is open under sunshine . they place they lost two P3C they parked now 4 more open p3c . they can buy millions$ birds but can make hangers storages in pasni jeewani ormara or any special new naval base? i will never buy this sir sorry . they need brain and management .



You can't just say, "Oh, we are running out of space, let's build a hangar 250 km away in no man's land'.

You need support facilities, engg, fuel services, housing, unit lines, messes, runways, proper systems, probably get new electricity lines, in short, make a new cantt.

The only cantt which was made after independence on modern lines AFAIK is Kharian (am I right @Xeric?)...and the Amreekis built it.

Right now, Amreekis aren't gonna build us another one, and we don't have the money to do so ourselves...

Aur agr koi banda base kay itnay andar pauhaunch hi jaye, to hangar bhi jahaz nhn bacha sakta.

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## Imran Khan

RaptorRX707 said:


> You mentioned you have called Obama for your angry, why don't you do same to call Pakistan officers to tell them their stupidity plans.



because i have to visit them next time too that is why  ... if i told them they may banned me to visit next time . see dear just go and watch its whole empty taxiway they can make 3 hangers 700m far each one or 1km far each but they didnnt . let me explain to you . on same taxiway if they make hangers on my black marks each one will be 1km far away from other . we are in war from inside and we have to think abut threat which already damaged us . they have to use brains . RPG alrady eat our 3 AWACS birds which are nor unrecoverable .
keep in the mind RPG-7 effective range is 200m


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## VelocuR

Imran Khan said:


> because i have to visit them next time too that is why  ... if i told them they may banned me to visit next time . see dear just go and watch its whole empty taxiway they can make 3 hangers 700m far each one or 1km far each but they didnnt . let me explain to you . on same taxiway if they make hangers on my black marks each one will be 1km far away from other . *we are in war from inside and we have to think abut threat which already damaged us . they have to use brains . RPG alrady eat our 3 AWACS birds which are nor unrecoverable .*
> 
> keep in the mind RPG-7 effective range is 200m



Yes, they have small brain but let them do their jobs. If all AWACS are destroyed, all we can do is laugh and move on. There is nothing PAF can do anything to solve it. US will re-send new AWACs or China will be happy to do.


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## Najam Khan

Imran Khan said:


> again stupidity of PAF . they construct ZDK-03 hangers next to each other why they never learn from past damn base is in KMs make at least 1km away each so any future terror attack will be on one . here we have 3 AWACS in 300m round if some terrorist reach in center of these hangers. he just need to fire RPG on three direction and we have over and all



Times have changed my friend. Asset and Information security is now HOT topic in PAF. So, If you see new hangars and claims to know something then you know Jack about them. Soon you'll be seeing similar hangars on other bases.

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## Armstrong

Najam Khan said:


> Times have changed my friend. Asset and Information security is now HOT topic in PAF. So, If you see new hangars and claims to know something then you know Jack about them. Soon you'll be seeing similar hangars on other bases.



*Khan Sahib* why is it that even the PAF, which is arguably the most Professional State Institution in Pakistan, is also 'Reactive' as opposed to being a Proactive force that was able to factor in Asset & Information Security as part of their SOPs & Security Equation long before these few months (or years) by continuously appraising itself & conducting a multi-faceted threat assessment on a recurring basis ?

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## Imran Khan

Najam Khan said:


> Times have changed my friend. Asset and Information security is now HOT topic in PAF. So, If you see new hangars and claims to know something then you know Jack about them. Soon you'll be seeing similar hangars on other bases.



till how long we fans of PAF will defend their blunders sir ? are not we lean from past? i have now 10% remain trust on security of assets and i know you will come and defend them even after next attack lets wait .


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## Najam Khan

Imran Khan said:


> *till how long we fans of PAF will defend their blunders sir* ? are not we lean from past? i have now 10% remain trust on security of assets and i know you will come and defend them even after next attack lets wait .



First we need to accept the reality that we are in WAR, no matter how peaceful it look from media reports the threat exist (and it continue to remain until US is in Afghanistan). Unfortunately our security forces did not learn from each others mistakes; they did for small period of time...but later on same old 'Thund program' was adopted. 

Now a decent 'rugra program' has started in the military; branches with alleged 'chill life' are now handed over responsibilities. Hopefully this would change something...

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## Najam Khan

Armstrong said:


> *Khan Sahib* why is it that even the PAF, which is arguably the most Professional State Institution in Pakistan, is also 'Reactive' as opposed to being a Proactive force that was able to factor in Asset & Information Security as part of their SOPs & Security Equation long before these few months (or years) by continuously appraising itself & conducting a multi-faceted threat assessment on a recurring basis ?



The issue is not with PAF, its with us all as a nation; we literally work when its UTMOST urgent '_sarr pe parti hai tau kaam kertay hain_'. Whenever an incident happen, then those old SOP manuals are opened. 

Minhas/Mehran/GHQ and similar attacks on police training centers/central jails happened because people at helm of affairs in these places fail to continue (and adopt) security practices for longer period of time. Whereas their enemy took them by surprise each time....

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## air marshal



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## Dr. Strangelove

air marshal said:


>



how many are there


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## DANGER-ZONE



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## nomi007

i think
both PAF & PN
need to built hanger like usa style which they build at shamsi airbase.
they look solid


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## Fieldmarshal

nomi007 said:


> i think
> both PAF & PN
> need to built hanger like usa style which they build at shamsi airbase.
> they look solid



they are any thing but sold.... but in fact flimsy to say the least

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## ice_man

what is the update on the SAAB 2000s how many are officially active?


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## razgriz19

Fieldmarshal said:


> they are any thing but sold.... but in fact flimsy to say the least



they are HANGARS not bunkers!
know the difference


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## Capt.Popeye

ice_man said:


> what is the update on the SAAB 2000s how many are officially active?



The answer to that question: as many as are intact.
Apart from that; nobody in Pakistan will have the guts to give you an answer to your question.

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## krash

Capt.Popeye said:


> The answer to that question: as many as are intact.
> Apart from that; nobody in Pakistan will have the guts to give you an answer to your question.



Hasn't it been given a thousand times. In the parliament and everywhere else? Or are there omens which make you better informed sitting all the way across the border? Because you being an Indian certainly cannot partake in conspiracy theories, right? Or maybe its something as simple as you wishing it to be as such..... in that case its uninteresting.

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## Bossman

razgriz19 said:


> they are HANGARS not bunkers!
> know the difference



For aircrafts, its not bunkers but rather HAS i.e. Hardened Aircraft Shelter made of concrete and steel. The one you see at Shamsi is made out of fabric.


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## razgriz19

Bossman said:


> For aircrafts, its not bunkers but rather HAS i.e. Hardened Aircraft Shelter made of concrete and steel. The one you see at Shamsi is made out of fabric.



i know that very well.
this is why i said they are hangars. Hangars are not hardened shelters or bunkers.
They are just there for maintenance operations, servicing of the aircraft, etc.


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## Capt.Popeye

krash said:


> Hasn't it been given a thousand times. In the parliament and everywhere else? Or are there omens which make you better informed sitting all the way across the border? Because you being an Indian certainly cannot partake in conspiracy theories, right? Or maybe its something as simple as you wishing it to be as such..... in that case its uninteresting.



HeHeHe, that question that Ice Man posed was very specific. It was thus:



> *what is the update on the SAAB 2000s how many are officially active?*


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-236.html#ixzz2cOfXbQVY

Leave alone a thousand times; that question has not been answered even once, by anybody! 
Now let me tell you: that there are atleast _Three Entities _(or parties) that know the answer to that question.
But you (i.e. the Pakistani Awaam) do not know the answer to that very specific question that @ice_man posed. Whether you will eventually or not; is anybody's guess.

But we can assume that the PAF knows the answer to that question. So who are the remaining two parties?
Facts can be very interesting, nothing conspiratorial about them................

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## krash

Capt.Popeye said:


> HeHeHe, that question that Ice Man posed was very specific. It was thus:
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-236.html#ixzz2cOfXbQVY
> 
> Leave alone a thousand times; that question has not been answered even once, by anybody!
> Now let me tell you: that there are atleast _Three Entities _(or parties) that know the answer to that question.
> But you (i.e. the Pakistani Awaam) do not know the answer to that very specific question that @ice_man posed. Whether you will eventually or not; is anybody's guess.
> 
> But we can assume that the PAF knows the answer to that question. So who are the remaining two parties?
> Facts can be very interesting, nothing conspiratorial about them................



Facts do not become facts through snatching claims out of thin air, especially when it is clear that the one claiming is exactly to the subject what a monkey is to rocket science i.e. oblivious. One Saab destroyed as informed to the parliament and the people of Pakistan. With regards to being "officially active" that is as far as the fact goes, even if 10 out of the 5 had been destroyed. Now, that was specific. The rest you can claim, state, dream which ever way you want. Because after all, Indians are known for being objective and telling the truth. HeHeHe

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## Capt.Popeye

krash said:


> Facts do not become facts through snatching claims out of thin air, especially when it is clear that the one claiming is exactly to the subject what a monkey is to rocket science i.e. oblivious. One Saab destroyed as informed to the parliament and the people of Pakistan. With regards to being "officially active" that is as far as the fact goes, even if 10 out of the 5 had been destroyed. Now, that was specific. The rest you can claim, state, dream which ever way you want. Because after all, Indians are known for being objective and telling the truth. HeHeHe



Whatever works as your lullaby! 

But the question was very specific.
Seeking a precise answer.

Nobody in Pakistan has given that answer yet.......... 
Will that happen?


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## Jango

Tell me why are we going over this again?


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## araz

nuclearpak said:


> Tell me why are we going over this again?



bECAUSE iDEAL FINGERS HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO.
aRAZ


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## Capt.Popeye

nuclearpak said:


> Tell me why are we going over this again?



Only because the TRUTH has not got told yet. So people still are left with un-answered questions.......


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## Jango

Capt.Popeye said:


> Only because the TRUTH has not got told yet. So people still are left with un-answered questions.......



What more 'truth' do people want?

Do they want the Air Chief to hold a presser and say 'One Saab 2000 got destroyed'?

I said it on the day of the attack, so did a couple of other members...slowly the government came out and then SecDef said it in parliament, then the famous columnists mention it in their columns, then ex-PAF folks say this (even those who kept on denying it for weeks).

I guess that should be enough...


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## Capt.Popeye

nuclearpak said:


> What more 'truth' do people want?
> 
> Do they want the Air Chief to hold a presser and say 'One Saab 2000 got destroyed'?
> 
> I said it on the day of the attack, so did a couple of other members...slowly the government came out and then SecDef said it in parliament, then the famous columnists mention it in their columns, then ex-PAF folks say this (even those who kept on denying it for weeks).
> 
> I guess that should be enough...



Nope. @ice_man's question was to the effect of: "how many Saab Erieye AWACs are operational?"
He did not ask "how many are destroyed?" Of course as you are aware; even that information was leaked out _very reluctantly_, and after considerable passage of time.

So:
now if you wish to answer that (very specific) question: *"how many Saab Erieye AWACs are operational now?"* Can any Official (e.g. PAF) source dare to answer that question?

As I said earlier; there are atleast 3 entities who already know the answer to that; the PAF is only one of them. The other two are outside the Estt. 
But do you know the answer? For sure?


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## nomi007

Capt.Popeye said:


> Nope. @ice_man's question was to the effect of: "how many Saab Erieye AWACs are operational?"
> He did not ask "how many are destroyed?" Of course as you are aware; even that information was leaked out _very reluctantly_, and after considerable passage of time.
> 
> So:
> now if you wish to answer that (very specific) question: *"how many Saab Erieye AWACs are operational now?"* Can any Official (e.g. PAF) source dare to answer that question?
> 
> As I said earlier; there are atleast 3 entities who already know the answer to that; the PAF is only one of them. The other two are outside the Estt.
> But do you know the answer? For sure?


i think paf don't to need disclose the true numbers.
now happy


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## Capt.Popeye

nomi007 said:


> i think paf don't to need disclose the true numbers.
> now happy



Of course!! 
PAF just NEEDS to be "_economical with the truth_". That is fine and Kosher!
And I'm OK with that.

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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> Whatever works as your lullaby!
> 
> But the question was very specific.
> Seeking a precise answer.
> 
> Nobody in Pakistan has given that answer yet..........
> Will that happen?



The Precise answer is as shocking, as surprising and as mixed as a jawbreaker. Its hard and sour, yet unusually satisfying once you see what unexpected result came out from the disaster.


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## Jango

Oscar said:


> The Precise answer is as shocking, as surprising and as mixed as a jawbreaker. Its hard and sour, yet unusually satisfying once you see what unexpected result came out from the disaster.



Come on SIr, take the step. Put the members out of their misery!


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## Safriz

nuclearpak said:


> What more 'truth' do people want?
> 
> Do they want the Air Chief to hold a presser and say 'One Saab 2000 got destroyed'?
> 
> I said it on the day of the attack, so did a couple of other members...slowly the government came out and then SecDef said it in parliament, then the famous columnists mention it in their columns, then ex-PAF folks say this (even those who kept on denying it for weeks).
> 
> I guess that should be enough...



really fed up of your persistant gibberish...

Saab announces Saab 2000 Erieye maintenance contract - IHS Jane's 360

If as per you ..most erieye have been destroyed..then why this contract was signed?


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## SQ8

Dreamreaper said:


> really fed up of your persistant gibberish...
> 
> Saab announces Saab 2000 Erieye maintenance contract - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> If as per you ..most erieye have been destroyed..then why this contract was signed?



Since we only had 4, most is superlative word in that sense. Even if you had one aircraft left, you would still want maintenance. However, there is more than one SAAB that is capable of flying but less than four.


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## Panther 57

Dont give wrong information. It will create over confidence which lead to surprises


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## Bratva

Pakistan bought 4 AWACS. 3 AWAC + 1 Training aircraft

As per SecDef public disclosure , 1 destroyed and 1 was damaged in attack

1 Saab AWAC survived the attack and it participated in saffron bandit exercise and there is video of it where joint chief o staff flying in it

As per unofficial media reports quoting anonymous officials couple of months back, repair work on damaged SAAB aircraft was being performed locally and it is in advance stage.

So there is 1 SAAB aircraft operational with 1 training aircraft, 1 destroyed, 1 is being repaired


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## Panther 57

Even asking such question is inappropriate


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## Argus Panoptes

Oscar said:


> Since we only had 4, most is superlative word in that sense. Even if you had one aircraft left, you would still want maintenance. However, there is more than one SAAB that is capable of flying but less than four.



The answer is TWO functioning aircraft. There, I said it.


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## Bratva

Argus Panoptes said:


> The answer is TWO functioning aircraft. There, I said it.



One and a half, to be more precise


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## Argus Panoptes

mafiya said:


> One and a half, to be more precise



Two aircraft can fly, one with a radar and one without.

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## Capt.Popeye

Argus Panoptes said:


> The answer is TWO functioning aircraft. There, I said it.



Now, Shhhhhhh.......................... 
The (politically correct) answer should have been : *"as many as are operational".*


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## Safriz

Oscar said:


> Since we only had 4, most is superlative word in that sense. Even if you had one aircraft left, you would still want maintenance. However, there is more than one SAAB that is capable of flying but less than four.



for one aircraft no maintinance contract will be needed as enough parts will be availably by scavanging the "Dead ones"...
an RPG cannot annihilate an aircraft and i wqas sat in front of the TV throughout the live coverage of the event and apart from the smoke from fuel storage,no smoke was seen rising from hangers .. so no Erieye were annihilated..
It was an RPG not Napam ...

Means that no Erieye were destroyed to the extent that spares couldnt be salvaged.....Looking at the fact that all erieye were identical units...
So a 170 Million USD contract for "Spares" is massive if PAF has existing supply of spares from disabled planes.....

Figures dont add up here......

In my oppinion 170 million is the bill for repair of the one damaged plane plus spares for remaining planes.......
You dont need spared for Erieye system as that is solid state and you dont go around changing circuit boards as regular maintinance...
The only thing that will need periodic spare parts is the planes,and these palnes are dirt cheap these days....

Again the figures dont add up here....

Yet our internet Blitzerkers wont stop Blitzerking their negative propogaganda...


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## Bratva

Dreamreaper said:


> for one aircraft no maintinance contract will be needed as enough parts will be availably by scavanging the "Dead ones"...
> an RPG cannot annihilate an aircraft and i wqas sat in front of the TV throughout the live coverage of the event and apart from the smoke from fuel storage,no smoke was seen rising from hangers .. so no Erieye were annihilated..
> It was an RPG not Napam ...
> 
> Means that no Erieye were destroyed to the extent that spares couldnt be salvaged.....Looking at the fact that all erieye were identical units...
> So a 170 Million USD contract for "Spares" is massive if PAF has existing supply of spares from disabled planes.....
> 
> Figures dont add up here......
> 
> In my oppinion 170 million is the bill for repair of the one damaged plane plus spares for remaining planes.......
> You dont need spared for Erieye system as that is solid state and you dont go around changing circuit boards as regular maintinance...
> The only thing that will need periodic spare parts is the planes,and these palnes are dirt cheap these days....
> 
> Again the figures dont add up here....
> 
> Yet our internet Blitzerkers wont stop Blitzerking their negative propogaganda...



So you know more than SecDEF?

It's possible this contract covers the cost of converting training aircraft in to functional AWAC!


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## Safriz

mafiya said:


> So you know more than SecDEF?
> 
> It's possible this contract covers the cost of converting training aircraft in to functional AWAC!



I do know more than you ..who says "One and a half" Erieye are alive and the rest are dead..
Whats the source of this brain fart of yours?

Secdef was misquoted and even he mentioned just one erieye...damaged/destroyed....
Something the likes of me have been saying since day one,that one was damaged......

Still how will you or @nuclearpak answer my Question here...i quote myself as you didnt read the whole comment and answerd with a one liner..



> You dont need spared for Erieye system as that is solid state and you dont go around changing circuit boards as regular maintinance...
> The only thing that will need periodic spare parts is the planes,and these palnes are dirt cheap these days....
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-238.html#ixzz2cQJlEwlE



So why a 170 Million Dollar contract?...for one and a half plane as you just said?


----------



## Bratva

Dreamreaper said:


> I do know more than you ..who says "One and a half" Erieye are alive and the rest are dead..
> Whats the source of this brain fart of yours?
> 
> Secdef was misquoted and even he mentioned just one erieye...damaged/destroyed....
> Something the likes of me have been saying since day one,that one was damaged......
> 
> Still how will you or @nuclearpak answer my Question here...i quote myself as you didnt read the whole comment and answerd with a one liner..



Here we go, Instead of brain farting here on this thread, why don't you read SecDEF statement given in parliament once again? He said it clearly, "ONE DESTROYED ON SPOT and ONE IS DAMAGED"

Please mention to us minions, which part of his statement was misquoted? It's your mental brain farts which is blurring your vision and you read things as you wish to see, not what it is written on paper actually!

So it is you who is twisting his statement so to make useless arguments with us.

And what I meant was, One functional AWAC flying and One damaged AWAC being repaired. Thus "One and half AWAC"


----------



## Safriz

mafiya said:


> Here we go, Instead of brain farting here on this thread, why don't you read SecDEF statment given in parliament once again? He said it clearly, "ONE DESTROYED ON SPOT and ONE IS DAMAGED"
> 
> So it is you who is twisting his statment so to make useless arguments with us.
> 
> And what I meant was, One functional AWAC flying and One damaged AWAC being repaired. Thus "One and half AWAC"




Yeah right...The cost of the whole unit was less than 200 Million USD NEW and you are stating the repair cost of one partially damaged plane with abundant supply of spared from the "Dead ones" as 170 million... 

Consider your figures again aftre reading this reposrt

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/uae-buys-saabs-erieye-aewc-aircraft-05951/

Current cost of one Erieye according to this report is 110 Million USD


----------



## Bratva

Dreamreaper said:


> Yeah right...The cost of the whole unit was 200 Million USD NEW and you are stating the repair cost of one partially damaged plane with abundant supply of spared from the "Dead ones" as 170 million...



I'm still waiting for you to proof one is not destroyed

And your "brain fart" about the 170 million agreement, Did you read the actual document? The term of services agreed upon by 
PAF and SAAB of what kind of services they will seek from SAAB?

The usual PR statement from SAAB is for public consumption. So If you knew what is actual terms of services PAF seeked from SAAB, perhaps, you could spare us your genius assumptions



Dreamreaper said:


> Yeah right...The cost of the whole unit was less than 200 Million USD NEW and you are stating the repair cost of one partially damaged plane with abundant supply of spared from the "Dead ones" as 170 million...
> 
> Consider your figures again aftre reading this reposrt
> 
> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/uae-buys-saabs-erieye-aewc-aircraft-05951/
> 
> Current cost of one Erieye according to this report is 110 Million USD



AS per SecDEF, Each AWAC costed 250 million Dollar.


----------



## Safriz

mafiya said:


> AS per SecDEF, Each AWAC costed 250 million Dollar.



good..
then you can tell how misinformed secdef is...and keep believing him...
bye


----------



## Bratva

Dreamreaper said:


> good..
> then you can tell how misinformed secdef is...and keep believing him...
> bye



And there your Ignorance is busted. 3 AWAC + 1 training aircraft for 1 billion dollar. Just shows how stubborn you become to support your useless arguments!

It is you who needs to revisit your figures

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## Safriz

mafiya said:


> And there your Ignorance is busted. 3 AWAC + 1 training aircraft for 1 billion dollar. Just shows how stubborn you become to support your useless arguments!
> 
> It is you who needs to revisit your figures



That was a SEK 7.4 billion "Credit contract" and figures included Compound interest and surcharges..Not the actual cost per unit...



> Sweden&#8217;s Dagens Industri in an April 10/13 article, is that the original purchase was funded by a 2006 credit arrangement of SEK 7.4 billion from the Swedish Export Credit and Export Credits Guarantee Board. Now they&#8217;ll have to add SEK 1+ billion to cover this, all to a country that isn&#8217;t viewed as a terrific credit risk. Saab Group
> 
> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/sweden-finalizes-saab-2000-aewc-contract-with-pakistan-02377/



and in 2006 exchange rates the amount comes up as 1.03 Billion USD.....and divide that by 5..its 200 million per plane?..and a sane person will guess that such a large contract will include spares supply in the 1 bilion dollar figure..
So each unit cost was definably less than 200 Million..On credit..
For cash payers like UAE its 110 Million as shown in the link i posted...

and to revive your memory the original contract was 4+1,...and 200 Million Dollar figure also come from this news report



> ISLAMABAD: In October 2005, Svenska Aeroplan Aktiebolaget or Saab, the Swedish manufacturer, agreed to sell us the most modern airborne tactical surveillance system &#8212; a high-speed turboprop that uses 4,591 shp Rolls-Royce AE 2100 turboprop engines and is equipped with Ericsson Microwave Systems&#8217; Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) based on the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA).
> 
> In 2009, we got the best and the most cost-efficient air policing platform but paid through the nose a wholesome Swedish krona 8.3 billion or an equivalent of $1.2 billion &#8212; $800 million for Saab and $400 million for the Erieye.
> 
> Saab 2000 Erieye was built to specifications of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with a 450-km Erieye radar range. The Erieye is not only data-linked to the PAF command and control infrastructure but links up with our F-16 Fighting Falcons as well.
> http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-130520-200-million-dollars-questions



Here is the news source mentioning original contract of 4+1 NOT 3+1 as you say



> Pakistan's first of five Saab 2000-based airborne early warning and control system aircraft was rolled out at the Swedish manufacturer's Linköping facility late last month.
> 
> Equipped with a Saab Microwave Systems Erieye surveillance radar, mission system and electronic warfare equipment, the Saab Aerotech-modified aircraft will offer an unrefuelled endurance of over nine hours. "This is a vital item of equipment to maintain peace," Pakistan air force chief of staff Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed said during a 27 March ceremony.
> http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures-pakistans-first-saab-aewc-system-emerges-222892/



International aviation registers still mention 5 Saab-2000 belonging to Pakistan



> 10025 025 Saab 2000 AEW&C 05-2010 Active	SE-025
> 10040 040 Saab 2000 AEW&C 02-07-2010 Active	SE-040
> 10045 045 Saab 2000 AEW&C 03-10-2011 Active	SE-045
> 10049 049 Saab 2000 AEW&C 23-02-2010 Active	SE-049
> J-019 019 Saab 2000 AEW&C 26-09-2008 Active	SE-019



But no picture of all 4 erieye exists in Public domain...Only three have been photographed..
so make up your own mind.


----------



## Bratva

Dreamreaper said:


> That was a SEK 7.4 billion "Credit contract" and figures included Compound interest and surcharges..Not the actual cost per unit...Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-215.html#ixzz2cQd5dDIv
> 
> 
> Dreamreaper said:
> 
> 
> 
> That was a SEK 7.4 billion "Credit contract" and figures included Compound interest and surcharges..Not the actual cost per unit...
> 
> 
> 
> and in 2006 exchange rates the amount comes up as 1.03 Billion USD.....and divide that by 5..its 200 million per plane?..and a sane person will guess that such a large contract will include spares supply in the 1 bilion dollar figure..
> So each unit cost was definably less than 200 Million..On credit..
> For cash payers like UAE its 110 Million as shown in the link i posted...
> 
> and to revive your memory the original contract was 4+1,...and 200 Million Dollar figure also come from this news report
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the news source mentioning original contract of 4+1 NOT 3+1 as you say
> 
> 
> 
> International aviation registers still mention 5 Saab-2000 belonging to Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> But no picture of all 4 erieye exists in Public domain...Only three have been photographed..
> so make up your own mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force Saab 2000 AEW&C Support Contract
> 
> Posted on: March 21st, 2013
> 
> The first Pakistan Air Force Saab 2000 AEW&C during pre-delivery flight-testing.
> 
> Saab was awarded a support contract for the type today by an unspecified nation, which must be Pakistan, as the only current operator of the type.
> 
> Saab DEFENCE AND security company Saab today signed an SEK1.1 billion ($169 million) support contract for a Saab 2000 AEW&C (airborne early warning and control) system already in service with an undisclosed nation. Although the company did not identify the country involved, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is the only air arm currently operating the type. All other Erieye systems on Saab aircraft are on the smaller Saab 340.
> 
> The PAF has taken delivery of four Saab 2000 AEW&C aircraft, which entered service with 3 Squadron at PAF Base Kamra-Minhas from December 2009. One aircraft was, however, damaged beyond repair on August 16, 2012, when militants fired a rocket-propelled grenade at 3 Squadron&#8217;s hangar. At the time it was thought to be repairable, but on February 6, 2013, Pakistan&#8217;s Defense Secretary confirmed that it had been destroyed in the attack.
> 
> The new support contract covers a comprehensive set of spares and support services for the system, which comprises of the Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system and ground equipment.
> 
> &#8220;Our support contract is a result of our close co-operation with our customer and can be seen as a further confirmation of our strong capability to provide our customers with advanced service and support solutions&#8221;, says Gunilla Fransson, Head of Saab&#8217;s Security and Defense Solutions business.
> 
> AFD-Dave Allport
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-215.html#ixzz2cQd5dDIv
> 
> So you need to makeup your mind too, that RPG destroyed the AWAC!
Click to expand...


----------



## Jango

Haan @Dreamreaper bhai jaan, posts ko delete karo delete...when tall claims fall flat, you can only delete posts to save face!

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## Jango

@Dreamreaper:


> really fed up of your persistant gibberish...
> 
> Saab announces Saab 2000 Erieye maintenance contract - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> If as per you ..most erieye have been destroyed..then why this contract was signed?



Just to clear your mind, I never said 'most' or 'all' have been destroyed, I have always maintained one. I remember how much I was ridiculed, but I stuck to it.

So carry on.


----------



## Safriz

mafiya said:


> Dreamreaper said:
> 
> 
> 
> That was a SEK 7.4 billion "Credit contract" and figures included Compound interest and surcharges..Not the actual cost per unit...Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-215.html#ixzz2cQd5dDIv
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force Saab 2000 AEW&C Support Contract
> 
> Posted on: March 21st, 2013
> 
> The first Pakistan Air Force Saab 2000 AEW&C during pre-delivery flight-testing.
> 
> Saab was awarded a support contract for the type today by an unspecified nation, which must be Pakistan, as the only current operator of the type.
> 
> Saab DEFENCE AND security company Saab today signed an SEK1.1 billion ($169 million) support contract for a Saab 2000 AEW&C (airborne early warning and control) system already in service with an undisclosed nation. Although the company did not identify the country involved, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is the only air arm currently operating the type. All other Erieye systems on Saab aircraft are on the smaller Saab 340.
> 
> The PAF has taken delivery of four Saab 2000 AEW&C aircraft, which entered service with 3 Squadron at PAF Base Kamra-Minhas from December 2009. One aircraft was, however, damaged beyond repair on August 16, 2012, when militants fired a rocket-propelled grenade at 3 Squadron&#8217;s hangar. At the time it was thought to be repairable, but on February 6, 2013, Pakistan&#8217;s Defense Secretary confirmed that it had been destroyed in the attack.
> 
> The new support contract covers a comprehensive set of spares and support services for the system, which comprises of the Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system and ground equipment.
> 
> &#8220;Our support contract is a result of our close co-operation with our customer and can be seen as a further confirmation of our strong capability to provide our customers with advanced service and support solutions&#8221;, says Gunilla Fransson, Head of Saab&#8217;s Security and Defense Solutions business.
> 
> AFD-Dave Allport
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-215.html#ixzz2cQd5dDIv
> 
> So you need to makeup your mind too, that RPG destroyed the AWAC!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are quoting a news posted by @fatman17 on PDF which he quoted from an aviation magazine...where it was written by "Dave Allport"..
> He is wrong on many occasions..
> Look here
> 
> ISSUU - No 305 afm 082013 by moest emha
> 
> Here he says that a new Hawker-4000 is operated by ISI...when it was a private jet bought by Malik riaz and co.....Only kept secret for reasons of political defamation fro buying a private jet..
> Yet "Dave allport" says it ISI operated...
> 
> If you want to beleive him...go ahead..
> and @fatman17 sir..always double check your sources....I have seen you posting "Sensational Journalism" on a few occasions...
> You posted AFD news from Dave allport HERE
> 
> While International Registers say the plane was delivered to "Behria Town"
> 
> 
> 
> So all those who want to believe AFD-Dave Allport humbug.........you are following the wrong guy.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bratva

Dreamreaper said:


> mafiya said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are quoting a news posted by @fatman17 on PDF which he quoted from an aviation magazine...where it was written by "Dave Allport"..
> He is wrong on many occasions..
> Look here
> 
> ISSUU - No 305 afm 082013 by moest emha
> 
> Here he says that a new Hawker-4000 is operated by ISI...when it was a private jet bought by Malik riaz and co.....Only kept secret for reasons of political defamation fro buying a private jet..
> Yet "Dave allport" says it ISI operated...
> 
> If you want to beleive him...go ahead..
> and @fatman17 sir..always double check your sources....I have seen you posting "Sensational Journalism" on a few occasions...
> You posted AFM news from Dave allport HERE
> 
> While International Registers say the plane was delivered to "Behria Town"
> 
> 
> 
> So all those who want to believe AFD-Dave Allport humbug.........you are following the wrong guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So SecDef Feb 6 statement is fabricated by sensational media.
> 
> Sahi Bhai, App sachay.
> 
> And btw, you are contradicting your own "deleted post report" remember, this is the same report you posted in your first deleted quote, right?
> 
> Why so much jumping back and forth?
Click to expand...


----------



## SQ8

Gentlemen, this is the SIPRI track for transfers. They do spend a lot of time in these things. 





Now refer to this discussion here
http://www.defence.pk/forums/seniors-cafe/220384-conundrum-pakistans-saab-2000-erieye-awacs.html

Just in case people were wondering. The S in SIPRI stands for Stockholm which is the Swedish capital.


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Gentlemen, this is the SIPRI track for transfers. They do spend a lot of time in these things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now refer to this discussion here
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/seniors-cafe/220384-conundrum-pakistans-saab-2000-erieye-awacs.html
> 
> Just in case people were wondering. The S in SIPRI stands for Stockholm which is the Swedish capital.



This is strange, since on this forum it was agreed that Pakistan bought 5 aircraft, out of which 4 were modified to the Erieye standard.


----------



## Jango

Donatello said:


> This is strange, since on this forum it was agreed that Pakistan bought 5 aircraft, out of which 4 were modified to the Erieye standard.



Bhai jaan abhi to bauhut kuch ana hai...



Oscar said:


> Gentlemen, this is the SIPRI track for transfers. They do spend a lot of time in these things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now refer to this discussion here



So it's 80% confirmed then...
@DANGER-ZONE...what do you say about this?


----------



## Safriz

The data does not mention J-019 which isnt an AWACS. Its a normal saab-2000 for VIP transport and training purposes.
So where is the descripency/surprise?



Donatello said:


> This is strange, since on this forum it was agreed that Pakistan bought 5 aircraft, out of which 4 were modified to the Erieye standard.



The data does not mention J-019 which isnt an AWACS. Its a normal saab-2000 for VIP transport and training purposes.
So where is the descripency/surprise?



Donatello said:


> This is strange, since on this forum it was agreed that Pakistan bought 5 aircraft, out of which 4 were modified to the Erieye standard.


----------



## SQ8

Dreamreaper said:


> The data does not mention J-019 which isnt an AWACS. Its a normal saab-2000 for VIP transport and training purposes.
> So where is the descripency/surprise?



This should explain the whole problem.

Number of AWACS delivered and Status of Aircraft.
Aerial Eyes: Pakistan&#8217;s New AWACS Fleets



> Saab announces a 5-year, SEK 1.1 billion ($170 million) contract that runs from 2013-2017, and covers &#8220;a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a previously delivered system, Saab 2000 AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control).&#8221; Unfortunately, &#8220;The industry&#8217;s nature is such that depending on circumstances concerning the product and customer, information regarding the customer will not be announced.&#8221;
> 
> The answer seemed obvious. Air forces using Saab turboprop AWACS include Sweden, Thailand and the UAE (Saab 340), and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (stretched Saab 2000 variant). Pakistan&#8217;s sale is well known and hasn&#8217;t been secret, so a Saab 2000 AEW&C customer insisting on secrecy must mean&#8230; Saudi Arabia.
> 
> Except that we might have been wrong. What even the February revelations in Pakistan hadn&#8217;t disclosed is that the attack on Minhas AB in Pakistan happened with *3 Erieye planes on the ground. One was destroyed &#8211; but 2 others were very badly damaged. *That leaves Pakistan with a fleet of just 1 plane, *until it gets those 2 fixed*. That could explain this $170 million contract, with the sudden secrecy invoked because Pakistan doesn&#8217;t want to publicly admit the extent of the loss; indeed, if Saab doesn&#8217;t announce a separate SEK 1+ billion support contract soon, the default assumption for this deal must become Pakistan.
> 
> The problem for Sweden, says Sweden&#8217;s Dagens Industri in an April 10/13 article, is that the original purchase was funded by a 2006 credit arrangement of SEK 7.4 billion from the Swedish Export Credit and Export Credits Guarantee Board. Now they&#8217;ll have to add SEK 1+ billion to cover this, all to a country that isn&#8217;t viewed as a terrific credit risk. Our Swedish source says that Dagen Industri is about to break a follow-on story involving &#8220;*questionable commissions*&#8221; related to the sale. No, we&#8217;re not shocked, either. But Sweden has laws that will be enforced, even if Pakistan&#8217;s aren&#8217;t.


*
Why am I NOT surprised*


----------



## Jango

Oscar said:


> This should explain the whole problem.
> 
> Number of AWACS delivered and Status of Aircraft.
> Aerial Eyes: Pakistan&#8217;s New AWACS Fleets
> 
> 
> *
> Why am I NOT surprised*



Sir jee...you can't prove these things to one whose ego is bigger than life. Gola maro.

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## nomi007

i think our security situation demanding don't disclosed these type of sensitive information openly
i thing is very clear both saab 2000 and p 3c are top target of our enemy
so i request to all memebers don't talk about how many are remaining


----------



## Bratva

@Oscar @nuclearpak

as initially believed, 4+1 Saab would be delivered, but final configuration became 3+1. 

If one AWAC is dropped, yet the price of deal remained 1 billion dollar.

SecDef in Parliament quoted price of each awac 250 million dollar


So does it mean around 200-250 million dollars were wasted in commissions?


----------



## Safriz

10040 took part in safron bandit...
Video exists..
And another was photographed after the attacks....It wasnt clear in the picture if it was 10040 or 10045.



Oscar said:


> This should explain the whole problem.
> 
> Number of AWACS delivered and Status of Aircraft.
> Aerial Eyes: Pakistans New AWACS Fleets
> 
> 
> *
> Why am I NOT surprised*








If somebody good at photoshop and fotensic eyes can figure out if this is 10040 or 10045??


----------



## Argus Panoptes

mafiya said:


> @Oscar @nuclearpak
> 
> as initially believed, 4+1 Saab would be delivered, but final configuration became 3+1.
> 
> If one AWAC is dropped, yet the price of deal remained 1 billion dollar.
> 
> SecDef in Parliament quoted price of each awac 250 million dollar
> 
> 
> So does it mean around 200-250 million dollars were wasted in commissions?



Wasted? Commissions are due earnings, not wastage, or so goes the conventional wisdom in our defense deals.


----------



## Jango

mafiya said:


> So does it mean around 200-250 million dollars were wasted in commissions?



Saudia bhai jan Saudia.

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## Bratva

nuclearpak said:


> Saudia bhai jan Saudia.



Oh the myth of Saudia financing the deal and buying one for itself and PAF training their crew was not a myth after all



Argus Panoptes said:


> Wasted? Commissions are due earnings, not wastage, or so goes the conventional wisdom in our defense deals.



It's everyone right to earn their "due earnings" by hook or by crook


----------



## Jango

mafiya said:


> Oh the myth of Saudia financing the deal and buying one for itself and PAF training their crew was not a myth after all



There's a lot of myths that aren't myths but a reality. 
@DANGER-ZONE...


----------



## Safriz

Jane's Defence Industry Saab announces Saab 2000 Erieye maintenance contract
Record Infohide
Publication:Jane's Defence Industry
Author:James Hardy, London
Section:CONTRACTS
Countries: Pakistan
Sweden
Last posted:2013-03-22 Saab has signed a five-year, SEK1,100 (USD170 million) contract to support its Saab
2000 Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) aircraft in service with an
unidentified international customer, the company announced on 21 March. The contract includes "a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a
previously delivered system ... equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system and
ground equipment", Saab said in a statement. While the Erieye radar system has been fitted to several platforms, including the Saab
340 and Embraer 145, for eight customers, Pakistan is the only international military
customer for the Saab 2000. Pakistan received the first of four aircraft in December 2009. The second arrived in
April 2010, the third in late 2010, and the final aircraft in April 2011. They are operated
by No. 13 Squadron at Minhas air base, although one aircraft is believed to have been damaged during a terrorist attack on the base in August 2012. Saab is already in the process of repairing the damaged Saab 2000 Erieye. The Erieye features an electronic warfare suite that includes electronic support, threat
warning and countermeasures dispensing subsystems, an identification friend or foe
subsystem, command and control capabilities, and a ground-based mission trainer.
Although it can communicate with the PAF's Lockheed Martin F-16s via a data link, this
is not compatible with the force's Dassault Mirage fleet.


*******************************

It is clear that there is a signficant diference in the reporting between Jane's and Defense Industry Daily!
Because jane's still says ''one damaged under repair''

While defensedaily article quoted by oscar says one destroyed two damaged....


----------



## Jango

Dreamreaper said:


> *******************************
> 
> It is clear that there is a signficant diference in the reporting between Jane's and Defense Industry Daily!



Bhai jaan aap googling doodling hi kartay raho!

Until you stop doing this googling and believing whatever is written on numerous websites, you will not get out of this confusion. Ground realities are harsh, Truth Hurts!


----------



## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> Sir jee...you can't prove these things to one whose ego is bigger than life. Gola maro.



I think I know the source of the confusion. There were three AWACS sitting at Kamra, while the fourth was away. But since people did not pay attention to this news. They think that the three that were attacked were all that it is of the Erieye fleet.


----------



## Jango

Oscar said:


> I think I know the source of the confusion. There were three AWACS sitting at Kamra, while the fourth was away. But since people did not pay attention to this news. They think that the three that were attacked were all that it is of the Erieye fleet.



No actually the source of confusion runs much deeper. Back to the original contracts...

Then absence of any picture of c/n 049 also adds to the mess.

Just say one is gone, and be over with.

This would be my last post on this issue.


----------



## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> Saudia bhai jan Saudia.





mafiya said:


> Oh the myth of *Saudia financing the deal and buying one for itself* and PAF training their crew was not a myth after all



Not entirely, my post should clear up the financing issue. 



> is that the original purchase was funded by a 2006* credit arrangement* of SEK 7.4 billion from the Swedish Export Credit and Export Credits Guarantee Board. Now they&#8217;ll have to add SEK 1+ billion to cover this, all to a country that isn&#8217;t viewed as a terrific credit risk




The Saudi's arent helping with the Erieye as such. They did however, request help in getting theirs operational if they decide to stick with it.


----------



## Safriz

nuclearpak said:


> Bhai jaan aap googling doodling hi kartay raho!
> 
> Until you stop doing this googling and believing whatever is written on numerous websites, you will not get out of this confusion. Ground realities are harsh, Truth Hurts!



Yes.....run and hide as you have no leg to stand on.
Your oh so confident attitude is based on hear say comig out of the Kamra airbase colony...
Gossip from workers... I have spent too much time on this website and remember almost all conversations i had with you..
You even said a laughable thing ''the plane burned with invisible smoke''...
I cant be bothered to dig up this exact of yours...But it must be here somewhere on this website.

While the rest of us back our claims with credible links and valid arguments..
You have been playing the same old broken record of yours,with repitition as your main argument and running away after writing the same comment over and over again.

Look at today's conversation...i posted half a dozen web links...oscar posted a few...
What you did?
Not a single news report or article and no propper arguments...
Just behaving like some grumpy old woman who cant bear being challenged.....grumbles illegibly for sometime then goes away...

You do need to change your way of arguments....specially in this case...


----------



## SQ8

In any case, for refreshing our memories(and biding some time till Isha). 
These are the Erieyes whose pictures we have seen(i.e we knew they existed with pictorial proof). 

*Operator date manf serial
Pakistan Gvmt 27/04/1995 J019 *





*
Operator date manf serial
Pakistan Gvmt 30/09/1996 09040 * 









Apparently this one had an identity crisis. 09040->10040

*Pakistan Gvmt 26/06/1997 10049 Active*






*Pakistan Gvmt 03/03/1997 10045 *
This aircraft also served as the demonstrator, so any pictures of the demonstrator is this one





*Pakistan Gvmt 26/09/1995 10025 Stored*





So, there are five SAAB-2000s. Of which four are AEW&C aircraft...and of which only 10-040 has been seen recently. 
Which means that this little piggy was the only one not home when the wolves came , and huffed and puffed and blew the house down.

Here is how our precious $1 billion dollars were kept.





The Saudi Myth is a Myth, because in Highmark 2010, we had 09-040 active.. So no missing plane as such.


The one I am really worried about is this one.. What to happened to his one?

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## Safriz

@Oscar
Where was 10045 seen?


10040 was photographed and videod taking part in saffron bandit....

So that means two birds sighted in good health?


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## SQ8

This is an interesting Mystery, the serial of the one I posted as 09-040 looks to be 09-049. Yet, since 10-040 has happened..what is to say that 10-049 as also happened. Something is definitely messed up. However, it definitely seems that 10-025 is the one that bought the dust.


----------



## SQ8

Dreamreaper said:


> @Oscar
> *Where was 10045 seen?*
> 
> 
> 10040 was photographed and videod taking part in saffron bandit....
> 
> So that means two birds sighted in good health?



I have no idea. I have only posted the pictures for reference to show that we had 4 AEW&C aircraft.


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## Safriz

Oscar said:


> I have no idea. I have only posted the pictures for reference to show that we had 4 AEW&C aircraft.



But in your commen you just said
"10045 seen recently''


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## SQ8

You wonder which one is this sitting at Rafiqui in the latest images in google.







Dreamreaper said:


> But in your commen you just said
> "10045 seen recently''



What it does say now? 
Was a typo.

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## Safriz

Oscar said:


> You wonder which one is this sitting at Rafiqui in the latest images in google.



Well 10040 is confirmed alive and kicking... As took part in saffron bandit...

Did you hear or see any other?


----------



## SQ8

And there's one at Sargodha here as well.. was it roaming around the country when the Sat was snapping up images?





Then again at Chaklala.

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## Safriz

Google earth images can be 1-3 year old....
Thats what it says on their FAQ page.


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## Safriz

So another outburst without results...

Fate of 10040 confirmed...its up and running.
But no confirmation about the other 3.
Except 10025 which is most probably the one damaged in the attack.
This still leaves us with ambuiguity about the remaining 2 erieye...

Oh well...back to my hybernation.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## Kompromat

Oscar said:


> And there's one at Sargodha here as well.. was it roaming around the country when the Sat was snapping up images?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then again at Chaklala.




Erie-Eye ?


----------



## SQ8

Dreamreaper said:


> Google earth images can be 1-3 year old....
> Thats what it says on their FAQ page.



Images usually are dated with the company(i.e the sat service provider) from where they are sourced. In this case, these were 2013.which means someone requested an updated version from google.


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## Pfpilot

As interesting as the discussion on the true number of Erieye is, it has a tendency to overlook the irreparable damage the destruction of one or two or more systems has done to the PAF capabilities. I personally believe the lower number, pessimism being the trait most true to being Pakistani; those who believe otherwise come across as desperate to coverup the incredible failure of the PAF and to convince themselves that the modernization of the force isn't going in reverse.

The truth is, any significant progress the PAF made over the past decade has been dented severely by the 'peacetime' destruction of what is one of our few trump cards. As a nation with an almost comically weak SAM capability, the AWACs are a crucial centerpiece of anything resembling a successful defence of Pakistan proper by the armed forces. Losing a significant portion of the situational awareness a relatively large fleet of AWACs aircraft provides, leaves us in the dark during potentially short but tactically significant periods.

So whether we have lost one or two or even four aircraft, the larger picture is almost unaffected. The PAF is significantly weaker today thanks to it's inability to protect its own assets. And the loss in assets would be greatly magnified in a conflict where knowledge of an adversary and it's movements is of great value, and where such intrusive systems which can provide such knowledge are duly hunted.

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## Black Eagle 90

Oscar said:


> In any case, for refreshing our memories(and biding some time till Isha).
> These are the Erieyes whose pictures we have seen(i.e we knew they existed with pictorial proof).
> 
> *Operator date manf serial
> Pakistan Gvmt 27/04/1995 J019 *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Operator date manf serial
> Pakistan Gvmt 30/09/1996 09040 *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently this one had an identity crisis. 09040->10040
> 
> *Pakistan Gvmt 26/06/1997 10049 Active*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan Gvmt 03/03/1997 10045 *
> This aircraft also served as the demonstrator, so any pictures of the demonstrator is this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan Gvmt 26/09/1995 10025  Stored*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, there are five SAAB-2000s. Of which four are AEW&C aircraft...and of which only 10-040 has been seen recently.
> Which means that this little piggy was the only one not home when the wolves came , and huffed and puffed and blew the house down.
> 
> Here is how our precious $1 billion dollars were kept.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Saudi Myth is a Myth, because in Highmark 2010, we had 09-040 active.. So no missing plane as such.
> 
> 
> The one I am really worried about is this one.. What to happened to his one?



I am really in a favor that if PAC in near future gains some extra cash from GoP then they should develop some turbo prop. planes locally and also do a JV on two types of plane like:
Saab-2000
Saab-340


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## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> This should explain the whole problem.
> 
> Number of AWACS delivered and Status of Aircraft.
> Aerial Eyes: Pakistans New AWACS Fleets
> 
> 
> *
> Why am I NOT surprised*



Sir when will Pakistan will have complete fleet of Awacs which we ordered from China ? @nuclearpak


----------



## Safriz

Ok...lets crowd source this task...Open your Google earth (Not google maps) and search PAF bases you think can have Erieye..
Look for dates after 16-Aug-2012 and see on what dates and where you can see Erieye or something resembling..
Take a clear screenshot and post here with whatever date Google earth shows for that Picture...

Here is my find

This is clearly an Erieye Parked at Sargodha on 05-Mar-2013


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Oscar said:


> In any case, for refreshing our memories(and biding some time till Isha).
> These are the Erieyes whose pictures we have seen(i.e we knew they existed with pictorial proof).
> 
> *Operator date manf serial
> Pakistan Gvmt 27/04/1995 J019 *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Operator date manf serial
> Pakistan Gvmt 30/09/1996 09040 *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *(THIS ONE IS 09049 not 40. This picture is from an Firepower demonstration HM10 at that time we had received only one Erieye and one Saab2k Transport)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently this one had an identity crisis. 09040->10040
> 
> *Pakistan Gvmt 26/06/1997 10049 Active*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan Gvmt 03/03/1997 10045 *
> This aircraft also served as the demonstrator, so any pictures of the demonstrator is this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan Gvmt 26/09/1995 10025 Stored*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is how our precious $1 billion dollars were kept.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Saudi Myth is a Myth, because in Highmark 2010, we had 09-040 active.. So no missing plane as such.



The error in image order have been identified above. 
Also 09-040 true serial no is 10-040.

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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> Bhai jaan abhi to bauhut kuch ana hai...
> 
> 
> 
> So it's 80% confirmed then...
> @DANGER-ZONE...what do you say about this?






nuclearpak said:


> There's a lot of myths that aren't myths but a reality.
> @DANGER-ZONE...



Chalo yaar logon ko yaha fikar to ho gye hai total no. of Erieyes ke, sach bhe nikal he aye ga aik din. 
SE-045 belongs to KSA as of me, well you can take this info with a pinch of salt if you want. it will be out soon.


----------



## Safriz

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Chalo yaar logon ko yaha fikar to ho gye hai total no. of Erieyes ke, sach bhe nikal he aye ga aik din.
> SE-045 belongs to KSA *as of me*, well you can take this info with a pinch of salt if you want. it will be out soon.



and who the hell are you?

"Kiss bagh kii moolii ho"?


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## Jango

@Oscar, serial numbers are 09049, 10040, 10025 and J-019. 

10045 has NEVER been photographed in PAF colors, NEVER has there been a clear photo. Only images are with civilian registration SE-045. So either PAF kept it perfectly secret, or it is doing something else.

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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> Bhai jaan abhi to bauhut kuch ana hai...
> 
> 
> 
> So it's 80% confirmed then...
> @DANGER-ZONE...what do you say about this?





nuclearpak said:


> There's a lot of myths that aren't myths but a reality.
> @DANGER-ZONE...





Dreamreaper said:


> and who the hell are you?
> 
> "*Kiss bagh kii moolii ho"*?



Thats why i told you @nuclearpak, i doesn't worth sharing this info at open forum. Here we have first response. 
Better to wait for it.

and @Dreamreaper Moli KHAIT me ugti hai BAGH me nahin
"Tum kis Khait ke moli ho"


----------



## Jango

Dreamreaper said:


> Here is my find
> 
> This is clearly an Erieye Parked at Sargodha on 05-Mar-2013



How are you getting 5 March 2013 images?

My images at Sargodha airbase are of 2012.


----------



## Safriz

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Thats why i told you @nuclearpak, i doesn't worth sharing this info at open forum. Here we have first response.
> Better to wait for it.
> 
> and @Dreamreaper Moli KHAIT me ugti hai BAGH me nahin
> "Tum kis Khait ke moli ho"



Stop trying to pose like some ISI or CIA guy.....
Its been a whole year guys like you have been posing all illusive and mystical for show off purposes...
I remember your "Source of Info"...must be somewhere in the initial pages of this thread..You too Quoted somebody who works at the Kamra base...
Now you come up with another Rubbish claim 10045 belongs to Saudi Arabia.....what ever you smoke is pretty strong.



nuclearpak said:


> @Oscar, serial numbers are 09049, 10040, 10025 and J-019.
> 
> 10045 has NEVER been photographed in PAF colors, NEVER has there been a clear photo. Only images are with civilian registration SE-045. So either PAF kept it perfectly secret, or it is doing something else.



Unfortunately in Pakistan there is no hobby of Plane spotting..Like here in UK where people have ultra zoom lenses with DSLRs and regularly scan the skies around airbases and photograph planes..
Pakistanis are more used to taking photos with Nokia Lumia or iPhones..
such devices don't capture planes up in the air.... So from where do you expect every PAF plane's picture in HD to appear in Public domain?


----------



## Jango

Dreamreaper said:


> Unfortunately in Pakistan there is no hobby of Plane spotting..Like here in UK where people have ultra zoom lenses with DSLRs and regularly scan the skies around airbases and photograph planes..
> Pakistanis are more used to taking photos with Nokia Lumia or iPhones..
> such devices don't capture planes up in the air.... So from where do you expect every PAF plane's picture in HD to appear in Public domain?



Chal bhai tu mauj kar...all planes are well and sound, like a baby. None got destroyed, none got damaged...we have 4 AWACS and a Trainer. Happy happy.


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## Safriz

nuclearpak said:


> Chal bhai tu mauj kar...all planes are well and sound, like a baby. None got destroyed, none got damaged...we have 4 AWACS and a Trainer. Happy happy.


aik tou lambay lambay daaway kertay hou..phir bhaag jatay hou...
sharam bhi nahii aatee tumhain

Source chorou..
Koi good reason hii dey dou...
Why are you expecting every PAF plane's HD pic to be available in Public domain?
I gave an argument...whats yours?

Again sometime you and others will crawl out of the wood works and Quote some secretive source who mysteriously told you something....and when somebody will challenge you ... You will run away..

You know who does this?

People with an agenda to spread misinformation ..
Stop doing this..its been a whole year now...


----------



## Jango

Dreamreaper said:


> aik tou lambay lambay daaway kertay hou..phir bhaag jatay hou...
> sharam bhi nahii aatee tumhain
> 
> Source chorou..
> Koi good reason hii dey dou...
> Why are you expecting every PAF plane's HD pic to be available in Public domain?
> I gave an argument...whats yours?



Jo lambi lambi chori hain woh sabit bhi ho jati hai. 

Whenever I have said something on this forum, I have said it with proof and 100% assurance, not by googling for an hour.

Good reason agr tum logon ko day bhi do to kia fayeda? You all were up in arms when I said that AWACS is destroyed. You all were putting theories in left right and centre. Some hotshots said they called up some Sqn Ldr at PAF Media Dte, somebody had an uncle's cousin ka beta at Kamra, somebody quoted AVM Shahid Latif...sab ki akhar main bolti band ho gayi. While I gave my reasons and even gave the whole detailed sequence of the attacks, you still didn't believe me, ab kaunsa baat maan lo gay.

Us waqt to mujhay aur bakion ko bari galiyan day rahay thay, phir chup kyun?

Khair, let's leave it. 

I don't want to discuss these things again. 

Jis ko jo samajhna hai samjhay, you want to believe all are fine, be my guest. Somebody wants to believe all are gone, be my guest.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Dreamreaper said:


> Stop trying to pose like some ISI or CIA guy.....
> Its been a whole year guys like you have been posing all illusive and mystical for show off purposes...
> I remember your "Source of Info"...must be somewhere in the initial pages of this thread..You too Quoted somebody who works at the Kamra base...
> Now you come up with another Rubbish claim 10045 belongs to Saudi Arabia.....what ever you smoke is pretty strong.



No I didn't quote anything to anybody working in Kamra or somewhere else or in any part of this thread or any other thread. I just had a private conversation with nuclearpak long ago and told him what i knew. I won't force you or request you to believe in my info as I'm referring to my ownself, I don't wana shatter your dreams either. I am not like other who typically quote their own SOURCES in an open forum, which i believe is a foolish thing. Its nuclearpark who mentioned me in two post so i had to spit it out here.
But just want to let you know that I am not forum fanboy or keyboard warrior like you but an aviation artist and somehow managed to be a tiny part of PAF.
Take that http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...n-art-wahaj-ahmed-siddiqui-5.html#post4260730
and that too http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...n-art-wahaj-ahmed-siddiqui-6.html#post4508987


----------



## Bratva

With all the jibberish @Dreamreaper been throwing lately, One must ask, what's his "public source" which says Erieye was damaged only but not destroyed?

I mean there are for more credible sources then him which publically admitted one destroyed



> ISLAMABAD: The February 6 admission by senior officials of the defence ministry that a Saab-2000 aircraft fitted with an Airborne Early Warning & Control System (AWACS) was totally destroyed in the August 15, 2012 terror attack on the Kamra airbase, implies that the concerned authorities had been keeping the tax payers in the dark for the past six months by claiming that it was only the nose cone of the precious aircraft which had been partially damaged and that it would be repaired by the manufacturers in Sweden.
> 
> The fact that the Kamra airbase raiders had completely destroyed one of the four Saab-2000 AWACS planes was made public for the first time by Additional Secretary Defence Rear Admiral Farrokh Ahmad during a meeting of the National Assembly&#8217;s Standing Committee on Defence on February 6, six months after the Minhas airbase at Kamra was attacked by the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan.
> 
> The meeting was chaired by President Zardari&#8217;s sister, Azra Fazal Pechuho, as the chairperson of the 18-member Committee. Responding to a question by Ayaz Ameer, one of the Standing Committee members, Rear Admiral Farrokh Ahmad conceded that a Saab-2000 AWACS which was parked at the Minhas airbase was completely destroyed by &#8220;miscreants&#8221; when the Kamra came under attack.
> 
> When asked by Ayaz Ameer to further enlighten the Committee on the issue, Secretary Defence Lt Gen (R) Asif Yaseen Malik admitted that one fourth early warning ability of the PAF was knocked out by the raiders with the ruining of one of the four Swedish-made Saab-2000 planes.
> 
> But the secretary defence did not respond to Ayaz&#8217;s query about the actual loss suffered by the national kitty due to the ruining of Saab-2000 AWACS. As The News asked PAF spokesman Group Captain Tariq Mahmood about the likely price of the Saab-2000, he sought a couple of days to collect the required information. Asked about the price of the Saab-2000 AWACS, a senior PAF official said while requesting anonymity that the perished plane was worth 130-140 million US dollars. But a highly placed defence ministry official differed with the figure, saying that the plane destroyed at Kamra was worth 250 million US dollars.


----------



## Safriz

DANGER-ZONE said:


> No I didn't quote anything to anybody working in Kamra or somewhere else or in any part of this thread or any other thread. I just had a private conversation with nuclearpak long ago and told him what i knew. I won't force you or request you to believe in my info as I'm referring to my ownself, I don't wana shatter your dreams either. I am not like other who typically quote their own SOURCES in an open forum, which i believe is a foolish thing. Its nuclearpark who mentioned me in two post so i had to spit it out here.
> But just want to let you know that I am not forum fanboy or keyboard warrior like you but an aviation artist and *somehow managed to be a tiny part of PAF.*
> Take that http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...n-art-wahaj-ahmed-siddiqui-5.html#post4260730
> and that too http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...n-art-wahaj-ahmed-siddiqui-6.html#post4508987


Yes i like your art,but
Here is your own description about yourself on PAFFalcons forum...


_About The Artist
Wahaj Ahmed Siddiqui is a young self-made aviation artist. Inspired by S. M. Hussaini and has been drawing aircraft since his childhood. He had never attended any art school and *neither have any connection with air force.* He has never appeared in any local or international art Exhibition but willing to become an official aviation artist.

MEDIUMS: Charcoal, HB-2 and color pencils, oil pestles, oil-paints.

INTERESTS: Modern and old military aviation.
_


----------



## Safriz

DANGER-ZONE said:


> No I didn't quote anything to anybody working in Kamra or somewhere else or in any part of this thread or any other thread. I just had a private conversation with nuclearpak long ago and told him what i knew. I won't force you or request you to believe in my info as I'm referring to my ownself, I don't wana shatter your dreams either. I am not like other who typically quote their own SOURCES in an open forum, which i believe is a foolish thing. Its nuclearpark who mentioned me in two post so i had to spit it out here.
> But just want to let you know that I am not forum fanboy or keyboard warrior like you but an aviation artist and *somehow managed to be a tiny part of PAF.*
> Take that http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...n-art-wahaj-ahmed-siddiqui-5.html#post4260730
> and that too http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...n-art-wahaj-ahmed-siddiqui-6.html#post4508987


Yes i like your art,but
Here is your own description about yourself on PAFFalcons forum...


_About The Artist
Wahaj Ahmed Siddiqui is a young self-made aviation artist. Inspired by S. M. Hussaini and has been drawing aircraft since his childhood. He had never attended any art school and neither have any connection with air force. He has never appeared in any local or international art Exhibition but willing to become an official aviation artist.

MEDIUMS: Charcoal, HB-2 and color pencils, oil pestles, oil-paints.

INTERESTS: Modern and old military aviation.
_


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Dreamreaper said:


> Yes i like your art,but
> Here is your own description about yourself on PAFFalcons forum...
> 
> 
> _About The Artist
> Wahaj Ahmed Siddiqui is a young self-made aviation artist. Inspired by S. M. Hussaini and has been drawing aircraft since his childhood. He had never attended any art school and *neither have any connection with air force.* He has never appeared in any local or international art Exhibition but willing to become an official aviation artist.
> 
> MEDIUMS: Charcoal, HB-2 and color pencils, oil pestles, oil-paints.
> 
> INTERESTS: Modern and old military aviation.
> _



Yes, here connection means that neither I or any of my family member is employee of PAF, unlike my fellow aviation artists that either are *In Service / Ex Pilots* or *Children / Siblings* of PAF / Military personals. It make me unique. A few artists that are/were PAF personals become my friends after my artwork surfaced on internet in 2009 and thats how i got into it. 
And the description written up there is quite old, thanks for showing that to me, it need to be upgraded now with me recent achievements. 

and i don't wana discuss about myself or the ERIEYE here anymore, its on you, whether to believe it or not.

Thanks for appreciating my art


----------



## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> @Oscar, serial numbers are 09049, 10040, 10025 and J-019.
> 
> 10045 has NEVER been photographed in PAF colors, NEVER has there been a clear photo. Only images are with civilian registration SE-045. So either PAF kept it perfectly secret, or it is doing something else.



No , then its perfectly clear. That is the company demonstrator much like our first Block-52. And is being used for tests and what not. Issue solved.

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## Safriz

@Oscar .. here is a screen shot of google earth on 5th march 2013
Its at Sargodha







and then there is of J019 in Chaklala on 4-03-13..which you posted in your comments above...
That means it hasn't been converted to AWACS.


----------



## Safriz

and here is an interesting one...






From Chaklala again...Date can be clearly seen..
what aircrafts are these?


----------



## hassan1

Dreamreaper said:


> and here is an interesting one...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Chaklala again...Date can be clearly seen..
> what aircrafts are these?



3: CN-235
1: PHENOM 100
1: KING AIR 200

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## Imran Khan

Dreamreaper said:


> and here is an interesting one...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Chaklala again...Date can be clearly seen..
> what aircrafts are these?



CN-235 based there and thats their parking dear
ground pic of that place

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## Safriz

@Imran Khan
Can you check parking areas of all PAF bases on google earth?
There arent many bases so shouldnt take much time...
Also check historic pictures of these parking areas......and runways...
From past 16-08-2012 to whatever latest pic they have...
Lets see if you can spot any erieye?
I spotted one.
And so did oscar....


----------



## Imran Khan

Dreamreaper said:


> @Imran Khan
> Can you check parking areas of all PAF bases on google earth?
> There arent many bases so shouldnt take much time...
> Also check historic pictures of these parking areas......and runways...
> From past 16-08-2012 to whatever latest pic they have...
> Lets see if you can spot any erieye?
> I spotted one.
> And so did oscar....



why should i spy on my country  i only spy indians look at here

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/146124-indian-missile-nuclear-sites.html

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## Safriz

ok..so here is the problem.....again.

10040 still in service...confirmed...
J.019 still a vip transport and not converted to Awacs.

Lets assume the rest of the three have been scrapped or stored for scavanging...

How do we justify 170 million dollars of spares supply contract with SAAB for just 2 aircrafts?

Keeping in mind that the aircraft itself costs only 12-15 million USD today......
Anybody????

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## SQ8

Dreamreaper said:


> ok..so here is the problem.....again.
> 
> 10040 still in service...confirmed...
> J.019 still a vip transport and not converted to Awacs.
> 
> Lets assume the rest of the three have been scrapped or stored for scavanging...
> 
> How do we justify 170 million dollars of spares supply contract with SAAB for just 2 aircrafts?
> 
> Keeping in mind that the aircraft itself costs only 12-15 million USD today......
> Anybody????



Please read defence industry's analysis. It is very close to the actual situation.


----------



## Safriz

Oscar said:


> Please read defence industry's analysis. It is very close to the actual situation.


So after a whole year..we can settle this debate with the analysis you refer to?
10025 deemed not worthy of repair and stored.(Or probably J-019 will be refitted with Erieye from 10025 later)
Two others,10045,10049,being repaired??
10040 up and running
and as of April 2013 J-019 still being used as VIP transport/Trainer.

Total bill 170 Million USD..Because PAF sentries didn't have enough bullets in their guns on the night on 16th August 2012


----------



## Jango

Dreamreaper said:


> Because PAF sentries didn't have enough bullets in their guns on the night on 16th August 2012



There's not much one sentry can do against 7 or so men. 

He did his best and killed 3 terrorists...and saved further catastrophe.

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## Imran Khan

Dreamreaper said:


> ok..so here is the problem.....again.
> 
> 10040 still in service...confirmed...
> J.019 still a vip transport and not converted to Awacs.
> 
> Lets assume the rest of the three have been scrapped or stored for scavanging...
> 
> How do we justify 170 million dollars of spares supply contract with SAAB for just 2 aircrafts?
> 
> Keeping in mind that the aircraft itself costs only 12-15 million USD today......
> Anybody????



if we have no pic video its mean scrapped or stored? WTH sir . we have no pic of some 50 f-16s which are in paf active 100 mirages and 120 f-7s have no pics so ?

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## Roybot

Dreamreaper said:


> Jane's Defence Industry Saab announces Saab 2000 Erieye maintenance contract
> Record Infohide
> Publication:Jane's Defence Industry
> Author:James Hardy, London
> Section:CONTRACTS
> Countries: Pakistan
> Sweden
> Last posted:2013-03-22 Saab has signed a five-year, SEK1,100 (USD170 million) contract to support its Saab
> 2000 Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) aircraft in service with an
> *unidentified international customer*, the company announced on 21 March. The contract includes "a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a
> previously delivered system ... equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system and
> ground equipment", Saab said in a statement. While the Erieye radar system has been fitted to several platforms, including the Saab
> 
> 
> *******************************
> 
> It is clear that there is a signficant diference in the reporting between Jane's and Defense Industry Daily!
> Because jane's still says ''one damaged under repair''
> 
> While defensedaily article quoted by oscar says one destroyed two damaged....



According to Defence Industry Daily, Saudi Arabia is the unknown customer which signed the $170 Million deal with SAAB and not Pakistan.

Saab&#8217;s Mysterious S-2000 AEW&C Customer? Saudi Arabia


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## v9s

Roybot said:


> According to Defence Industry Daily, Saudi Arabia is the unknown customer which signed the $170 Million deal with SAAB and not Pakistan.
> 
> Saab&#8217;s Mysterious S-2000 AEW&C Customer? Saudi Arabia




.....and who do you think funded the initial deal with SAAB?

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## Safriz

Roybot said:


> According to Defence Industry Daily, Saudi Arabia is the unknown customer which signed the $170 Million deal with SAAB and not Pakistan.
> 
> Saab&#8217;s Mysterious S-2000 AEW&C Customer? Saudi Arabia



Jane's is far more reliable than defencedaily,so i will go with what jane's said.
Saudia never went ahead with the plan.

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## SQ8

Roybot said:


> According to Defence Industry Daily, *Saudi Arabia is the unknown customer which signed the $170 Million deal with SAAB and not Pakistan.*
> 
> Saab&#8217;s Mysterious S-2000 AEW&C Customer? Saudi Arabia





v9s said:


> .....and who do you think funded the initial deal with SAAB?





Dreamreaper said:


> Jane's is far more reliable than defencedaily,so i will go with what jane's said.
> Saudia never went ahead with the plan.



Please read the actual article before snipping the actual content of the news for the benefit of your post, the 170 million contract is not the deal in question for Saudi Arabia, It is for a nation with a previously *delivered *system. Moreover, the serial numbers of ALL Saab-2000's are listed here and their present status as well for reference. 
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/sweden-finalizes-saab-2000-aewc-contract-with-pakistan-02377/
Ill repost the article again, but I hope that it serves as a reminder for members to read through before perpetuating hearsay like "SA funded the Erieye Deal"

Jane's data may be outdated on the status of the written-off aircraft.


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## Safriz

@Skywalker.
Lat time we met,You asked me where i was on PDF..So here i am..I changed my user name.
Since you are the only person i know of who Physically asked a "Reliable source" face to face about the status of Erieye..
What do you say about the assumption that 1 was destroyed or deemed too costly for repairs and two others were partially damaged?
and that 170 Million contract is indeed for repair of the two damaged ones and for conversion of the trainer/VIP transporter into AWACS.
Your opinion please.


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## Safriz

Taking into consideration the original cost of the SAAB Erieye Deal..
The deal was 1 Billion Dollars and now an addition of 170 million dollars.That makes it 17% more expensive that original deal.

But looking at the operational costs...
(Data compiled from SAAB-2000's available specs in civilian role,excluding Parts and labor costs)
The running cost in terms of fuel is very low for SAAB-2000.
It does 1.1 miles per gallon. Current price of jet fuel is about 3 USD per gallon....
So it costs about 3USD per mile...

And the manufacturer gives approximate fuel flow rate per hour for SAAB-2000 as 820 liters...
Thats 217 US gallons per hour of fuel consumption.
Or 217X3= 650 USD Per hour in fuel consumption and that is dirt cheap.....compared to Chinese ZDK AWACS Pakistan got. 

It is well worth it to spend the extra 170 Million to keep the erieye afloat as the mainstay of Pakistan;s Aerial surveillance.


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## Safriz

Imran Khan said:


> if we have no pic video its mean scrapped or stored? WTH sir . we have no pic of some 50 f-16s which are in paf active 100 mirages and 120 f-7s have no pics so ?



Imran...Please tell this to the likes of @nuclearpak who have been arguing for over an year that since only 3 erieye have been photographed,only 3 exist and the 4th doesnt.


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## Imran Khan

Dreamreaper said:


> Imran...Please tell this to the likes of @nuclearpak who have been arguing for over an year that since only 3 erieye have been photographed,only 3 exist and the 4th doesnt.



i don't care bro. i am at same place where is was on attack night . one of them got some destruction while RPG hit the door of parking hanger . OVER AND ALL .for me


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## Dr. Strangelove

how much a single Erieye awacs costed us without including the spares ?


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## Safriz

wasm95 said:


> how much a single Erieye awacs costed us without including the spares ?



Are you wasim from Lancs uni Preston and Lahore? If not just ignore....



About your question...read the last two three pages of this thread...its all written there.


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## Jango

Dreamreaper said:


> Imran...Please tell this to the likes of @nuclearpak who have been arguing for over an year that since only 3 erieye have been photographed,only 3 exist and the 4th doesnt.



No offence, but I don't rely on googling doodling for my info, unlike you.

So better keep me out of this...and keep on living in your lala land.


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> No offence, but I don't rely on googling doodling for my info, unlike you.
> 
> So better keep me out of this...and keep on living in your lala land.



and we know well abut internal sources truth sir


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## Safriz

nuclearpak said:


> No offence, but I don't rely on googling doodling for my info, unlike you.
> 
> So better keep me out of this...and keep on living in your lala land.



sigh..

same old "The voices told me" ricochet.


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## Jango

Dreamreaper said:


> sigh..
> 
> same old "The voices told me" ricochet.



Yada yada yada...

You wanna believe nothing happened, not my problem.

I stand by what I said on the morning of the attack even now.


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## Safriz

nuclearpak said:


> Yada yada yada...
> 
> You wanna believe nothing happened, not my problem.
> 
> I stand by what I said on the morning of the attack even now.



you have been changing your statement multiple times which was based on "Inside info"...so do us a favor and repeat what do you stand by?
You and some others on this forum have been spreading negative propaganda which is not good for national morale..
If you cant prove something why stand by it and make yourself look like a fool?


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## SQ8

Dreamreaper said:


> sigh..
> 
> same old "The voices told me" ricochet.





nuclearpak said:


> Yada yada yada...
> 
> You wanna believe nothing happened, not my problem.
> 
> I stand by what I said on the morning of the attack even now.


Do you gentlemen even know what your disagreement is about?

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## Jango

Dreamreaper said:


> you have been changing your statement multiple times which was based on "Inside info"...so do us a favor and repeat what do you stand by?
> You and some others on this forum have been spreading negative propaganda which is not good for national morale..
> If you cant prove something why stand by it and make yourself look like a fool?



You are the only one who is making a fool of himself, and I think by constantly replying to your nonsense, I am probably making a fool of myself by wasting time.

I have always stood by my comment that one aircraft was destroyed and other damaged. 

The only time I said something else was very early morning, when the TV channels were showing a picture of IL-78 parked on the tarmac and saying this aircraft got some damage and all others were good. So I repeated that on the forum that by the looks of it, it's all good. 

But later on, I got the truth and have stuck to it ever since. Got ridiculed, abused, threatened, provoked...didn't make a difference.

Ab tang na kar yar.

Bye...

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## Safriz

Oscar said:


> Do you gentlemen even know what your disagreement is about?



Good point..and actually yes and no.
I have reached the conclusion that all three were damaged to various extents.One has been declared not feasible for repair and the other two either have been repaired or will be repaired.
But i took a whole year and now evidence from various sources is compelling.Thats the only way an additional 17% of the original contract or 170 million USD contract can be justified.
I did not rely on some "Inside Info" despite my real life friend @Skywalker telling me so when he visited IDEAS exhibition and talked to someone.

But i am not sure what Nuclearpak has been saying..
He said all three destroyed and that we had only 3 AWACS...


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## SQ8

Dreamreaper said:


> Good point..and actually yes and no.
> I have reached the conclusion that all three were damaged to various extents.One has been declared not feasible for repair and the other two either have been repaired or will be repaired.
> But i took a whole year and now evidence from various sources is compelling.Thats the only way an additional 17% of the original contract or 170 million USD contract can be justified.
> I did not rely on some "Inside Info" despite my real life friend @Skywalker telling me so when he visited IDEAS exhibition and talked to someone.
> 
> But i am not sure what Nuclearpak has been saying..
> He said all three destroyed and that we had only 3 AWACS...



I dont think you guys even know what your disagreement is nor did you ask NP to clarify his stand. You guys are arguing over whether there was a main market in Medina around 680 A.D whilst assuming that the argument is about if there was a lassi stand there.

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## Jango

Dreamreaper said:


> But i am not sure what Nuclearpak has been saying..
> He said all three destroyed and that we had only 3 AWACS...



Nope....

And not gonna clarify further.


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## Imran Khan

and no one has single pic of a damaged saas-2000

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## VelocuR

Imran Khan said:


> and no one has single pic of a damaged saas-2000




Yes, it was one Erieye damaged which was confirmed, I remember that day in Kamra base attack . Do you think, someone will take picture to show the public?


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## Imran Khan

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yes, it was one Erieye damaged which was confirmed, I remember that day in Kamra base attack . Do you think, someone will take picture to show the public?



yes why not ? we have 50 pics of damaged P3-Cs

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## SQ8

Imran Khan said:


> yes why not ? we have 50 pics of damaged P3-Cs



That sat in the middle of a City and were easy vantage shots. Not like Kamra.


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## Imran Khan

Oscar said:


> That sat in the middle of a City and were easy vantage shots. Not like Kamra.



and everyone can see a flame from 10km . now please show me same blast and flame smoke on kamra attack .air force didn't hide anything they informed that one saab was damaged by RPG hit on hanger its only here few want to destroy all of saab2000. and i am 99% sure there is no such internal info things .

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## VelocuR

Imran Khan said:


> yes why not ? we have 50 pics of damaged P3-Cs



Yes, it was parked outside, which can taken photo during sunny beautiful day, however, they learned their lesson to control public information. No one will see the picture of damaged Erieye inside the hanger and Google map I have used before is not always accurate.


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## Imran Khan

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yes, it was parked outside, which can taken photo during sunny beautiful day, however, they learned their lesson to control public information. No one will see the picture of damaged Erieye inside the hanger and Google map I have used before is not always accurate.



so my dear sir if they didn't post a pic and no one seen them damaged or destroyed how on earth i have to believe on internet guys then air force and minister of defense statements ?i will say sorry when someone post here a pic of damaged destroyed saab as we have no prove of all saab-2000s are ok other side also have no prove that 1-2-3 are damaged destroyed . simply we both are in dark . saying my friend my uncle my nephew will not work here .

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## Bratva

Imran Khan said:


> and everyone can see a flame from 10km . now please show me same blast and flame smoke on kamra attack .air force didn't hide anything they informed that one saab was damaged by RPG hit on hanger its only here few want to destroy all of saab2000. and i am 99% sure there is no such internal info things .




once again, same bs rhetoric, what's your source that tells no SAAB is destroyed, rather it was damaged only

Even the MoD, the theoratical boss of PAF, has told, SAAB was inside hanger, RPG penetrated the HANGER, DESTROYED the SAAB inside,

So Pray tell us, How can we get "PUBLIC PICS" of something destroyed inside HANGER?



Imran Khan said:


> so my dear sir if they didn't post a pic and no one seen them damaged or destroyed how on earth i have to believe on internet guys then air force and minister of defense statements ?i will say sorry when someone post here a pic of damaged destroyed saab as we have no prove of all saab-2000s are ok other side also have no prove that 1-2-3 are damaged destroyed . simply we both are in dark . saying my friend my uncle my nephew will not work here .



Are you more informed or Lt.GEN and Admiral ( sec def and additional sec def) are more informed about the defense dealings?


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## Imran Khan

mafiya said:


> once again, same bs rhetoric, what's your source that tells no SAAB is destroyed, rather it was damaged only


sir i have same qes to you what is your source ??????? that its damaged destroyed ?


> Even the MoD, the theoratical boss of PAF, has told, SAAB was inside hanger, RPG penetrated the HANGER, DESTROYED the SAAB inside,


well i am still on that statment yes one of them was damaged and we give a contract of 200mn$ to recover it 





> So Pray tell us, How can we get "PUBLIC PICS" of something destroyed inside HANGER?



same as it i will say were are pics they were damaged ? we both are on same boat you have doubts and i have no very simple logic

*
200 million dollars questions for PAF*


Farrukh Saleem
Friday, September 07, 2012




ISLAMABAD: In October 2005, Svenska Aeroplan Aktiebolaget or Saab, the Swedish manufacturer, agreed to sell us the most modern airborne tactical surveillance system &#8212; a high-speed turboprop that uses 4,591 shp Rolls-Royce AE 2100 turboprop engines and is equipped with Ericsson Microwave Systems&#8217; Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) based on the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA).



In 2009, we got the best and the most cost-efficient air policing platform but paid through the nose a wholesome Swedish krona 8.3 billion or an equivalent of $1.2 billion &#8212; $800 million for Saab and $400 million for the Erieye.



Saab 2000 Erieye was built to specifications of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with a 450-km Erieye radar range. The Erieye is not only data-linked to the PAF command and control infrastructure but links up with our F-16 Fighting Falcons as well.



PAF Base Minhas has two fighter squadrons. On December 10, 2007, a suicide bomber attacked a PAF employees&#8217; bus. On January 18, 2008, four rockets were fired one of which landed on the &#8220;roof of the NCO mess and two rockets inside the Mirage Rebuild Factory.&#8221; On October 23, 2009, a &#8220;suicide bomber killed eight people on a check post outside the base.&#8221; That&#8217;s a total of three attacks on the same PAF Base.



In between, PNS Mehran&#8217;s principal assets the Lockheed P-3 Orions, the $36 million four-engine turboprop anti-submarine and maritime surveillance aircraft, also came under attack and were severely damaged.



On August 16, 2012, PAF Base Minhas came under a serious attack yet again. The attack was targeted and the target was Saab 2000 Erieye. Rocket propelled grenade(s) were fired at the Orions and rocket propelled grenade(s) were fired at the Saab 2000. According to some reports, one Saab 2000 was destroyed and two others were damaged. Other reports claimed one destroyed and one damaged. All said and done, that&#8217;s at least a $200 million loss, if not a lot more.



Is the PAF unaware of the fact that Pakistan is in a state of war? How can rocket propelled grenades penetrate hangars that house the Orions and the Saab 2000? Why was more than one Saab in one location? Hasn&#8217;t the PAF built Hardened Aircraft Shelters (HAS), Kevlar deployable shelters or underground shelters for the most prized of our aircraft? How did the intruders know the exact location of the Orions and the Saabs? Why can&#8217;t we have buffer zones around facilities that store Orions and Saabs? Why did the base commander himself jump into the firefight? We are at war and the PAF ought to be practicing dispersal at bases as well as dispersal between bases.



Ejaz Haider, in his column titled &#8216;Analysis: the bigger questions surrounding Kamra&#8217;, calls P-3 Orion as Pakistan Navy&#8217;s (PN) eyes and Saab 2000 as Pakistan Air Force&#8217;s eyes. Imagine; our enemy is taking out our eyes &#8212; one at a time &#8212; and PAF was caught catnapping. An experienced aviator once said: &#8220;There are only two types of aircraft &#8212; fighters and targets.&#8221;

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-130520-200-million-dollars-questions


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## SQ8

Imran Khan said:


> and everyone can see a flame from 10km . now please show me same blast and flame smoke on kamra attack .air force didn't hide anything they informed that one saab was damaged by RPG hit on hanger its only here few want to destroy all of saab2000. and i am 99% sure there is no such internal info things .



You dont have to have something up in flames to declare it a write off or destroyed.

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## Imran Khan

Oscar said:


> You dont have to have something up in flames to declare it a write off or destroyed.



so what i have to do my dear sir ?

while i am sitting here i am 100% sure PAF is doing its best to recover the bird and i trust them more then my father .

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## SQ8

Imran Khan said:


> so what i have to do my dear sir ?
> 
> while i am sitting here i am 100% sure PAF is doing its best to recover the bird and i trust them more then my father .



Look at it this way. What if you did lose the aircraft to an extent where repairing it will cost more than the original aircraft itself. What if you decide that a lot of the equipment is salvageable and may be used for reverse engineering practice. If you declare the whole thing burnt to the ground..you get to keep that stuff and declare it lost as scrap.

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## Imran Khan

Oscar said:


> Look at it this way. What if you did lose the aircraft to an extent where repairing it will cost more than the original aircraft itself. What if you decide that a lot of the equipment is salvageable and may be used for reverse engineering practice. If you declare the whole thing burnt to the ground..you get to keep that stuff and declare it lost as scrap.



from history i learn that PAF annouce loses and didn't play cheap shots i have many examples such as C-130 loses f-16 loses and many more . if they were intreasted in TOT they can sign a TOT . still i am on the spot sir we damaged one bird and its recoverable otherwise no BASTARD dare to smile here ..... even me

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## Bratva

Imran Khan said:


> sir i have same qes to you what is your source ??????? that its damaged destroyed ?
> 
> well i am still on that statment yes one of them was damaged and we give a contract of 200mn$ to recover it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> same as it i will say were are pics they were damaged ? we both are on same boat you have doubts and i have no very simple logic
> 
> *
> 200 million dollars questions for PAF*
> 
> 
> Farrukh Saleem
> Friday, September 07, 2012
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: In October 2005, Svenska Aeroplan Aktiebolaget or Saab, the Swedish manufacturer, agreed to sell us the most modern airborne tactical surveillance system &#8212; a high-speed turboprop that uses 4,591 shp Rolls-Royce AE 2100 turboprop engines and is equipped with Ericsson Microwave Systems&#8217; Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) based on the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA).
> 
> 
> 
> In 2009, we got the best and the most cost-efficient air policing platform but paid through the nose a wholesome Swedish krona 8.3 billion or an equivalent of $1.2 billion &#8212; $800 million for Saab and $400 million for the Erieye.
> 
> 
> 
> Saab 2000 Erieye was built to specifications of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with a 450-km Erieye radar range. The Erieye is not only data-linked to the PAF command and control infrastructure but links up with our F-16 Fighting Falcons as well.
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Base Minhas has two fighter squadrons. On December 10, 2007, a suicide bomber attacked a PAF employees&#8217; bus. On January 18, 2008, four rockets were fired one of which landed on the &#8220;roof of the NCO mess and two rockets inside the Mirage Rebuild Factory.&#8221; On October 23, 2009, a &#8220;suicide bomber killed eight people on a check post outside the base.&#8221; That&#8217;s a total of three attacks on the same PAF Base.
> 
> 
> 
> In between, PNS Mehran&#8217;s principal assets the Lockheed P-3 Orions, the $36 million four-engine turboprop anti-submarine and maritime surveillance aircraft, also came under attack and were severely damaged.
> 
> 
> 
> On August 16, 2012, PAF Base Minhas came under a serious attack yet again. The attack was targeted and the target was Saab 2000 Erieye. Rocket propelled grenade(s) were fired at the Orions and rocket propelled grenade(s) were fired at the Saab 2000. According to some reports, one Saab 2000 was destroyed and two others were damaged. Other reports claimed one destroyed and one damaged. All said and done, that&#8217;s at least a $200 million loss, if not a lot more.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the PAF unaware of the fact that Pakistan is in a state of war? How can rocket propelled grenades penetrate hangars that house the Orions and the Saab 2000? Why was more than one Saab in one location? Hasn&#8217;t the PAF built Hardened Aircraft Shelters (HAS), Kevlar deployable shelters or underground shelters for the most prized of our aircraft? How did the intruders know the exact location of the Orions and the Saabs? Why can&#8217;t we have buffer zones around facilities that store Orions and Saabs? Why did the base commander himself jump into the firefight? We are at war and the PAF ought to be practicing dispersal at bases as well as dispersal between bases.
> 
> 
> 
> Ejaz Haider, in his column titled &#8216;Analysis: the bigger questions surrounding Kamra&#8217;, calls P-3 Orion as Pakistan Navy&#8217;s (PN) eyes and Saab 2000 as Pakistan Air Force&#8217;s eyes. Imagine; our enemy is taking out our eyes &#8212; one at a time &#8212; and PAF was caught catnapping. An experienced aviator once said: &#8220;There are only two types of aircraft &#8212; fighters and targets.&#8221;
> 
> 200 million dollars questions for PAF - thenews.com.pk





Behs braye behs, When on 9 FEBRUARY 2013, the updated info was provided to Pakistani AWAM by PAF AND MOD that ONE SAAB DESTROYED ON SPOT


GOSH, I DON'T KNOW WHY PEOPLE ACTING DUMB OR JUST PURPOSEFULLY IGNORING THE 6 FEB 2013 MOD CONFESSION IN PARLIAMENT AND NEWS OF THAT CONFESSION APPEARING IN NEWSPAPERS ON 9 FEB 2013.


TWO WORDS, GROW UP


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## Imran Khan

mafiya said:


> Behs braye behs, When on 9 FEBRUARY 2013, the updated info was provided to Pakistani AWAM by PAF AND MOD that ONE SAAB DESTROYED ON SPOT
> 
> 
> GOSH, I DON'T KNOW WHY PEOPLE ACTING DUMB OR JUST PURPOSEFULLY IGNORING THE 6 FEB 2013 MOD CONFESSION IN PARLIAMENT AND NEWS OF THAT CONFESSION APPEARING IN NEWSPAPERS ON 9 FEB 2013.
> 
> 
> TWO WORDS, GROW UP



only personal attacks in your posts sir . i can do better attacks but no


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## SQ8

Imran Khan said:


> from history i learn that PAF annouce loses and didn't play cheap shots i have many examples such as C-130 loses f-16 loses and many more . if they were intreasted in TOT they can sign a TOT . still i am on the spot sir we damaged one bird and its recoverable otherwise no BASTARD dare to smile here ..... even me



And this will keep going on and on. The simple facts we can ascertain from published sources are;

1. the PAF ordered 4 AEW equipped SAAB-2000's and 1 Training aircraft.

2. There was one loss as clearly confirmed multiple times in the media. Since 10025 is listed by this site as stored then that might be the airframe that was lost.

3. We have seen footage of 10040 in the recent exercises which means it is flying and good. That leaves two whose status we are unsure of.. 10049 and 10045. Since 10045 served as company demonstrator as well, it might be that it was elsewhere.

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## Imran Khan

Oscar said:


> And this will keep going on and on. The simple facts we can ascertain from published sources are;
> 
> 1. the PAF ordered 4 AEW equipped SAAB-2000's and 1 Training aircraft.
> 
> 2. There was one loss as clearly confirmed multiple times in the media. Since 10025 is listed by this site as stored then that might be the airframe that was lost.
> 
> 3. We have seen footage of 10040 in the recent exercises which means it is flying and good. That leaves two whose status we are unsure of.. 10049 and 10045. Since 10045 served as company demonstrator as well, it might be that it was elsewhere.



so noting confirm here sir we have to wait till we got pics of others 2 ????????????


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## Dazzler

read this newspiece, it has the contract details in support with an "undisclosed" country, notice the "red part" denotes a single system.




> Saab has signed a five-year, SEK1,100 (USD170 million) contract to support its Saab 2000 Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) aircraft in service with an unidentified international customer, the company announced on 21 March.
> 
> Saab rolled out the first Saab 2000 AW&amp;amp;EC Erieye aircraft for Pakistan in March 2008. It was delivered in December 2009. (Saab)
> Saab rolled out the first Saab 2000 AW&amp;amp;EC Erieye aircraft for Pakistan in March 2008. It was delivered in December 2009. (Saab)
> 
> The contract includes "a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a previously delivered system ... equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system and ground equipment", Saab said in a statement.
> 
> While the Erieye radar system has been fitted to several platforms, including the Saab 340 and Embraer 145, for eight customers, Pakistan is the only international military customer for the Saab 2000.
> 
> Pakistan received the first of four aircraft in December 2009.



Saab announces Saab 2000 Erieye maintenance contract - IHS Jane's 360


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## SQ8

Dazzler said:


> read this newspiece, it has the contract details in support with an "undisclosed" country, notice the "red part" denotes a single system.



That's looking into words too much. The _system_ is used industry wide for both singular and plural when referring to a product. So the MGM-140 ATACMS weapons system denotes the product.. but a delivery of ten of these may be referred to as systems.The confusion may however, be caused by Jane's condensed report.
This is the original SAAB announcement



> The contract concerns a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a previously delivered system,Saab 2000 AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control). The Saab 2000 AEW&C comprises of Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system and ground equipment.
> 
> The wide-area surveillance system in combination with ground equipment enables control over both land and sea, and can play an important role for border surveillance and rescue operations as well as in combating terrorism and organised crime.
> 
> "Our surveillance system provides the customer with improved solutions for defence and civil security. This contract is a result of our close cooperation with our customer and can be seen as a further confirmation of our strong capability to provide our customers with advanced service and support solutions&#8221;, says Gunilla Fransson, Head of Saab&#8217;s business area Security and Defence Solutions



From
Saab signs support contract for airborne surveillance system


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## ziaulislam

put it short most likley we lost one SAAB

I guess making a double wall/barrier/..placing a patrol, cameras or motion sensors cost more than SAAB...probably why we had none of them there..they just walked right in there by breaking a 60s built single wall

it seems PAF defense of high value target are at same level of 1960s


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## muse

ziaulislam said:


> put it short most likley we lost one SAAB
> 
> I guess making a double wall/barrier/..placing a patrol, cameras or motion sensors cost more than SAAB...probably why we had none of them there..they just walked right in there by breaking a 60s built single wall
> 
> it seems PAF defense of high value target are at same level of 1960s



Cameras, motion sensors and active/frequent patrols are the way top go - and they are cheaper relative to anything having to do with an AWA&C ship like the Saab

Or are we next going to argue that we are too poor to care for ourselves

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## Donatello

muse said:


> Cameras, motion sensors and active/frequent patrols are the way top go - and they are cheaper relative to anything having to do with an AWA&C ship like the Saab
> 
> Or are we next going to argue that we are too poor to care for ourselves



Not poor for ourselves. AWAWCs is not your daddy's money, so why care for it? To protect our homes we will go to any length possible. But to protect state property, well the less said the better.

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## Jango

what a comedy show!!!


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## Zarvan

nuclearpak said:


> what a comedy show!!!


When we would have delivery of all the awacs which we bought from China and How many SAAB we have right now ?


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## ziaulislam

after several attacks i dont see any policy change..you still would not see any camera or motion sensers or double barrier with patrol in between..
i have seen ghazi air base it has very few camera ..all the terrorist have to do is just breakthe wall at one place and move in..

in peshawar air base situation is worse the walls are very old and houses are attached to it so anyone can easily jump over the wall..forget about camera etc!!


the need to build a double barrier with camera, motion sensors and frequent patrols..they should clear out surroundng population within 200-300 meters atleast..
if they cant do it than they should move high value targets to isolated bases atleast in peaceful times


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## Dr. Strangelove

Zarvan said:


> When we would have delivery of all the awacs which we bought from China and How many SAAB we have right now ?



u know the answer to your question

i think u just want to here someone else who agrees with your story of the event 

so why ask the same question again and again?


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## Jango

Zarvan said:


> When we would have delivery of all the awacs which we bought from China and How many SAAB we have right now ?



2 ZDK delivered, 2 to go.

As for the Saabs, join the comedy cast my man. Some great posts to see and enjoy in the last two pages...

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## Panther 57

Better such topics are not discussed on the forum especially when comes to sitrup.


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## Zarvan

@nuclearpak wikki is showing currently we have 3 one was destroyed by the attack of Militants I am talking about Saab 2000


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## by78

Has this been posted? Photo is high-resolution.

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## pac-cac

Great news


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## nomi007




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## nomi007



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## nomi007

latest image





may be last ONE


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## nomi007

ZDK-03 is better than KJ-200
[Original] how it all seems at Y8 / 9 on the balance beam with a plate better than - Air Force Forum - Jagged Community

In accordance with the requirements of combat now, apparently more and more important early warning, from the current point of view, from the appearance point of view seems to have the balance beam and plates in two ways. The AWACS early warning aircraft, which are usually high-end large aircraft as a platform is estimated that most of the 150-ton aircraft, at least 100 tons of all, this thing is basically a dish, and the dishes are big heads because the larger the plate, the probe farther away, in China, such a thing of the aircraft platform is currently IL-76 , reportedly after using Y20.

Y20 only if instructions are helpless - the body crude fat Y20 guzzling reduced endurance, lack of more large-scale platform, but if the number of 10 or so, then, can barely acceptable, where the Chinese have mixed feelings if I had H8 successful, then it is possible to use it as a large-scale early warning aircraft and aerial refueling machine platform, which is what I think a good reason Figure 95 platform, as Comac C929 , advise blooded military fans still do not expect, and that even fools are delayed 70 tons C919 did not make it. 

In the following a small point, and from the appearance point of view with plates - such as the U.S. livestock E2C, early Chinese air marshals on the 1st, China's exports to Pakistan ZDK-03, as well as the balance beam - the most common is China's empty Police 200 . Such an early warning aircraft, if it is placed in the ground, took off the land, then China is undoubtedly the platform is Y8 / 9, then these two forms of early warning aircraft, which one better. Personal information read point, seems to feel the plate better. Here to talk a personal view point, AWACS effect, balance beam plate than good, and active electronically scanned phased array radar system tray, a good balance beam than mechanical scanning as installation restrictions. 

Although you can do very long, but narrow at the head and the Ministry, where there will be to teach a large blind spot. Whether it be electronically scanned or mechanical scanning plate does not have this problem, people that is 360 degree coverage, there will be no blind spots. In fact, plainly was chosen balance beam, carrier aircraft platform is too small to hold large disc-shaped antenna modifications undertaken style solutions. Some may say, anyway, this Y8 / 9 is doing balance beam with IL-76 AWACS (or future Y20) AWACS formed on platter with high and low , even if there are blind spots, its own high-end early warning aircraft to make up the platter. 

However, individuals do not think so, after all the high-end early warning aircraft, China will certainly not much equipment, it must end every time out AWACS flying a go? If only Y8 / 9 for the stage of medium-sized AWACS out, if it is the balance beam blind certainly exist, and if the plate will not have this problem, nothing more than a small carrier aircraft platform, the dish made &#8203;&#8203;small point, because it is low end of the medium-sized AWACS , detection range small point, nothing. 

Electronic scanning plate 120 degrees each piece seems total three fixed, only the electronic scan pitch and azimuth detection, the so-called phased array radar , characterized by an antenna does not rotate, the radar antenna beam direction is changed by the assembly to complete the Scan, intercepted the target. Obviously such a thing, with the sweeping surface rapid response quickly, even if the plate three bad one, but also have little effect. While the mechanical transfer by mechanical scanning antenna, not only sweep the surface a little slower reaction time - after all, from this moment to the next moment sweep sweep side to this position against mechanical rotation takes time, and if the plate is damaged part, then this part of the sweep surface unlikely.

It appears that more advanced electronic scanning. But here there is a problem, that is, the larger plates, detection distance farther, if it is the same size plates, only 1/3 of the dish electronic scanning, detection range, the better mechanical scanning, but for medium-sized AWACS originally Y8 / 9 platform speaking, shorter distance is not a problem, on the contrary, fast response, separable area scan is even more important. And from small aircraft, such as fighter aircraft is concerned, the United States seems to livestock F16 three generations of machines using mechanical scanning radar , but the U.S. livestock four generations of machines F22 has chosen the electronic scanning phased array radar, it should be said more advanced electronic scanning is better . 

2, from the platform perspective, more than 60 tons of Y8 / 9 enough to install the plate early Chinese AWACS air marshals on the 1st, that dish, using the aircraft as a platform to Figure 4, Figure 4 parameters; captain 30.179 meters, wingspan 43.08 m, height 8.46 m, wing area of 161.7 square meters, empty weight 35.3 tons, maximum takeoff weight of 66 tons, the maximum level flight speed of 557 km / h, maximum range of 6200 km (payload of 3 tons), the crew 7. And according to the year of air marshals on the 1st person said, was also strengthened the position of parts, and so becomes empty weight of air marshals on the 1st after only increase, not decrease, the maximum takeoff weight load after subtracting the empty weight (including fuel and various types of equipment) should not be more than 30 tons. 

The Y8 data: captain 34.02 meters, wingspan of 38.0 meters, height 11.16 m, wing area 121.86 m 2, 13.5 meters wide and 3.2 meters long cargo height of 2.3 meters, maximum takeoff weight of 61 tons, empty weight 35 tons. Both basically close, Y8 although wingspan as Figure 4, but the captain larger, Y8 and Y9 is longer than a few meters, maximum takeoff weight also increased slightly. And when air marshals on Figure 4 One warning system component miniaturization certainly nowhere near now, so Y8 / 9 installed on a middling but detection distance plate full enough competent. 

America livestock early warning aircraft E2C is a little man, all with plates, America livestock E2C data: captain 17.54 meters, wingspan 24.56 meters ( wings folded 8.94 m), height 5.58 m, wing area of 65.03 square meters, empty weight 17.3 tons, maximum takeoff weight of 23.4 tons, while the E2C radome diameter of 7.32 m, thickness 0.79 m radome. Of course, the detection distance carrier AWACS early warning aircraft, with ground-based immeasurably, but it illustrates that even the little man E2C carrier aircraft platform, but also can dish, then a much larger Y8 / 9 with a plate of its detection range should be ideal. 

While Pakistan buy Y8 / 9 as a platform plate AWACS ZDK-03 it shows sufficient competence, while Pakistan contrast collected from the balance beam produced in Sweden, "Saab 2000" type "Erieye" early warning aircraft, Pakistan said China's ZDK-iron 03 AWACS radius of activity to be larger. Above is a personal opinion, the overall feeling is Y8 / 9 sold a similar Pakistani amount ZDK03 plate AWACS air marshals 200 than it is now to be better than some of the balance beam, and with the electronic components miniaturization technology, the same size, weight plates


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## DANGER-ZONE

nomi007 said:


> latest image
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> may be last ONE



This is not ZDK-03 but KJ-500 having the three antenna radome.


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## Nishan_101

nomi007 said:


>



I think PN and PAF has not coordinated with each other in the right way like as PN was looking for a twin engine MPA along with AEW&C and PAF too. So they both can buy just a single type that will save a lot in training and maintenance.

PN:
11 Saab-2000 MPAs
02 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs

PAF:
5 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs
7 Saab-2000 Transport(can be used for training as well)

This makes a total of 25 Saab-2000 which would be bought from Airliners and then can be upgraded and converted into AEW&Cs, MPAs and VIP Military transport aircraft and PAC engineers could take part in it too in Sweden.


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## nomi007

Nishan_101 said:


> I think PN and PAF has not coordinated with each other in the right way like as PN was looking for a twin engine MPA along with AEW&C and PAF too. So they both can buy just a single type that will save a lot in training and maintenance.
> 
> PN:
> 11 Saab-2000 MPAs
> 02 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs
> 
> PAF:
> 5 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs
> 7 Saab-2000 Transport(can be used for training as well)
> 
> This makes a total of 25 Saab-2000 which would be bought from Airliners and then can be upgraded and converted into AEW&Cs, MPAs and VIP Military transport aircraft and PAC engineers could take part in it too in Sweden.



i think it was better for PN to induct saab-2000mpa nor atr-72mpa

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## Bratva

Nishan_101 said:


> I think PN and PAF has not coordinated with each other in the right way like as PN was looking for a twin engine MPA along with AEW&C and PAF too. So they both can buy just a single type that will save a lot in training and maintenance.
> 
> PN:
> 11 Saab-2000 MPAs
> 02 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs
> 
> PAF:
> 5 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs
> 7 Saab-2000 Transport(can be used for training as well)
> 
> This makes a total of 25 Saab-2000 which would be bought from Airliners and then can be upgraded and converted into AEW&Cs, MPAs and VIP Military transport aircraft and PAC engineers could take part in it too in Sweden.


 @Oscar please take of this day dreamer

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## Nishan_101

mafiya said:


> @Oscar please take of this day dreamer



Not Day dreaming but letting you and others know the possibility which we have missed.



nomi007 said:


> i think it was better for PN to induct saab-2000mpa nor atr-72mpa



Yes Bro. This is what I am telling that PN is inducting the not so good plane. Saab-2000 MPA could be modified to carry two weapons station under each wing and two under fuselage too; so we would have 6 weapon station in total.

11 of them could make a right fleet for Anti Submarine and Anti Ship duties along with fighter jets and UAVs.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Nishan_101 said:


> I think PN and PAF has not coordinated with each other in the right way like as PN was looking for a twin engine MPA along with AEW&C and PAF too. So they both can buy just a single type that will save a lot in training and maintenance.
> 
> PN:
> 11 Saab-2000 MPAs
> 02 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs
> 
> PAF:
> 5 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs
> 7 Saab-2000 Transport(can be used for training as well)
> 
> This makes a total of 25 Saab-2000 which would be bought from Airliners and then can be upgraded and converted into AEW&Cs, MPAs and VIP Military transport aircraft and PAC engineers could take part in it too in Sweden.



ARMY ko bhe kuch de day yarr, un se teri dushmani hai kia ?

*On the serious note:* kindly cut the CRAP OUT !


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## Bratva

Nishan_101 said:


> Not Day dreaming but letting you and others know the possibility which we have missed.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes Bro. This is what I am telling that PN is inducting the not so good plane. Saab-2000 MPA could be modified to carry two weapons station under each wing and two under fuselage too; so we would have 6 weapon station in total.
> 
> 11 of them could make a right fleet for Anti Submarine and Anti Ship duties along with fighter jets and UAVs.



Lanat Bhai on your consistent stubbornness despite knowing Pakistan is out of cash, yet you consistently spewing same crap again and again


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## SQ8

Nishan_101 said:


> Not Day dreaming but letting you and others know the possibility which we have missed.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes Bro. This is what I am telling that PN is inducting the not so good plane. Saab-2000 MPA could be modified to carry two weapons station under each wing and two under fuselage too; so we would have 6 weapon station in total.
> 
> 11 of them could make a right fleet for Anti Submarine and Anti Ship duties along with fighter jets and UAVs.



*How would it be a possibility?*

The acquisition of 4 SAAB AEW's cost us *$1.2 Billion* which had to be *financed for the most from a rather reluctant Swedish bank*. How do you propose that it could have been done?
Do you people have any sense on what to base your wishlists? Do you know the condition of your economy? People are overstaffed due to government regulations; as such this means that for every 5 people in Pakistani industry only 1 is actually needed, that means that most people are just there because somehow unemployment has to be shown as reduced. Companies such as PWC hire people for a measly Rs.8000 to fill government quotas; people who are generally wasteful and do pointless tasks such as counting papers. If this government subsidy on hiring finished there would be thousands upon thousands out of jobs. This is just one of the tiny threads by which our economy gets by.. and you are out wishing and planning on the hope that every Pakistani will find $1 million under random rocks and stones.
Stupid wish lists make sense if you are new or dont spend time, but in your case you have been here for a long while and show genuine interest. But interest is not just posting pictures or waving a flag around; look into the depths of things, aircraft come from money-money from a good economy--and so on. I dont think you are that young not to get these concepts by now and it will only do you good in other things in life as well. Learn so to be able to debate well with the naysayers of Pakistan instead of being ridiculed by them; you have a lot of interest that translates to potential to learn.. If there has been a fault on the part of seniors here to not help you in learning then it is their fault(My fault).. but you have to make some effort too over the years. 
Now, knowing that the deal cost us a fortune in the form of a very difficult to credit.. how do you think we could have done what you propose?
And now that you know of the limitations, tell me what could be a realistic alternative to your idea?

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## Zarvan

mafiya said:


> Lanat Bhai on your consistent stubbornness despite knowing Pakistan is out of cash, yet you consistently spewing same crap again and again


Than we need to arrange cash our enemy is growing at much faster speed we need weapons soon other wise pain is on the way

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## SQ8

Zarvan said:


> Than we need to arrange cash our enemy is growing at much faster speed we need weapons soon other wise pain is on the way



Who will do this and how?
What plausible or realistic scheme will you come up with? Lets have your thoughts on it.


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## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> Who will do this and how?
> What plausible or realistic scheme will you come up with? Lets have your thoughts on it.[/q]
> First way is our goldmines ask china to extract take some percentage and in return give us weapons than gawadar and above all provide secret nuclear gurrantee to arab states and take money from them and get weapons other wise soon you would be next target off either India or USA or both


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## Informant

War is not in India's benefit, they will not damage their economy which has faltered a bit. They are smart people and will not act to further destabilize their rowng economy. What they will do is add pressure on us using their influence in the world arena and media. They wont let us stand on our feet and unfortunately people like you play very well into their hands. You think a jihad is happening in Pakistan? When people are blown up and just yesterday Shia pilgrim convoy was attacked and 2 FC personnel lost their lives. These are the people you support, as long as terrorism happens in Pakistan, India USA has no need to fight us.

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## Nishan_101

Oscar said:


> *How would it be a possibility?*
> The acquisition of 4 SAAB AEW's cost us *$1.2 Billion* which had to be *financed for the most from a rather reluctant Swedish bank*. How do you propose that it could have been done?
> Do you people have any sense on what to base your wishlists? Do you know the condition of your economy? People are overstaffed due to government regulations; as such this means that for every 5 people in Pakistani industry only 1 is actually needed, that means that most people are just there because somehow unemployment has to be shown as reduced. Companies such as PWC hire people for a measly Rs.8000 to fill government quotas; people who are generally wasteful and do pointless tasks such as counting papers. If this government subsidy on hiring finished there would be thousands upon thousands out of jobs. This is just one of the tiny threads by which our economy gets by.. and you are out wishing and planning on the hope that every Pakistani will find $1 million under random rocks and stones.
> Stupid wish lists make sense if you are new or dont spend time, but in your case you have been here for a long while and show genuine interest. But interest is not just posting pictures or waving a flag around; look into the depths of things, aircraft come from money-money from a good economy--and so on. I dont think you are that young not to get these concepts by now and it will only do you good in other things in life as well. Learn so to be able to debate well with the naysayers of Pakistan instead of being ridiculed by them; you have a lot of interest that translates to potential to learn.. If there has been a fault on the part of seniors here to not help you in learning then it is their fault(My fault).. but you have to make some effort too over the years.
> Now, knowing that the deal cost us a fortune in the form of a very difficult to credit.. how do you think we could have done what you propose?
> And now that you know of the limitations, tell me what could be a realistic alternative to your idea?



Actually the real thing which was needed by Pakistan was JV on Radar, Sonar and Optics with Italy, France and Sweden that will help us in every way. So if we can't do that they there is nothing that can stop Pakistan of buying expensive things...


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## ali_raza

avionics are the future.so we better run our horses that way


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## Nishan_101

ali_raza said:


> avionics are the future.so we better run our horses that way



SUPARCO, NESCOM, KRL-GIDS, PAC, Army and Navy electronics division should work with Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and EU on Military and Commercial electronics and include private companies of Pakistan too.

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## Chak Bamu

Zarvan, meray bhai. Please come out of self-inflicted delusion. You would stop sounding like a .... (I do not want to say it). Our Arab brothers do not really want to be saved by us. If we provide a guarantee to Gulf Arabs, then we would be effectively supplanting USA. Do you think Americans would let that happen? Plus I am not sure Gulf Arab monarchies are worth saving. I hope you spend sometime trying to learn about history of Saudi-Abu Dhabi tussle, that led to creation of UAE. I also hope that you spend some time in learning what compelled Qatar to offer to host a USA base. Things are not quite so easy and straightforward as you would believe them to be.

You want us Pakistanis to take care of Arabs, when in fact we are not capable of taking care of ourselves? When we are able to deal with our internal contradictions, including Jihadists bent on war with neighbors (like yourself), we would would be on our way to provide security for ourselves as well as others close to us. Until that happens, we would remain laughing stock of the world. I know all the material upon which you base your jihadist world view. Many do. We just do not see it as a viable long-term option for Pakistan. Jihadists inspired by a particular interpretation of some Hadiths have done more harm to us in the last few years than India could ever do in a decade. India did not bomb us to destroy PC-3 Orions, neither did India have to fire any missiles to destroy AWACS aircraft in Kamra. Our very own TTP jihadists did it. Their mindset is based on the interpretations that you have often espoused on this forum. I hope you understand that your view of future is the very thing that stands in the way of our future.

We do not need war. To be strong, we need development. We are not Granada (Gharnata) of Spain. If we act like it, we would become it. I hope you understand this.

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## Informant

Zarvan said:


> You so innocent drum.. KSA sooner or later would be attacked and seculars are traitors they have always sold Pakistan and are pet dogs off USA and India even worse than that @Informant



The US has bases in all the GCC countries. KSA, they have their men service their planes. They have their bases. In Qatar they have the largest base in the Arabian Gulf. In UAE they have a base. They fly their F-16s. I have it on the direct authority. The French maintained their Mirages while the American maintain the F-16s. Kuwait is a regular stop for US fleet and Bahrain has another base. US will attack them? They sell US oil at 1/5th or even at 1/10th the international price. Kuwait sold them oil at 10% price for years. All their expenditures in the Bases are taken up by respective Arab countries. Open your eyes, and learn about the world instead of spouting BS. 

No, US will not lose an ally of such magnitude in the GCC. The Americans learn from their mistakes and that is the reason they did not go through with their threats on Syria. USA will neither attack Pakistan. But use people like you to destabilize Pakistan. People like you are so easy to buy its not even funny. Want to know what was Latif Mehsud doing with Afghanistan Intelligence in Logar province. Taking money from them to commit bullshit Jihad in Pakistan. You and your BS doesnt work on us. It might work on idiots who have no knowledge of world's political atmosphere but not us. No attack will ever happen on KSA from USA or Western world. Only Muslims will kill each other and I promise you that people like you are the reason why Islam is ruined everywhere. 

I remember how fast the TTP claimed to NOT have carried out suicide bombing in Boston, Massachusetts. This is how scared they are, the last time their failed bombing attempt by Faisal Shahzad in NYC, resulted in 2 of their Ameers bown to pieces in drone strikes. Did you see their cowardliness how quick they were to say they did not do it. All your brethren do is attack Shia pilgrims, innocent travellers who visit Pakistan, kidnap doctors, run extortion gangs, suicide bombings, car bombings. All the criminal elements in Pakistan are associated to TTP. Murder, smuggling, drugs, robbery, such are your true Jihadis. I'm talkin about evidence that we actually have with us. Unlike you I dont talk out of my ***. 

All you are good at is this secular traitor this and secular traitor that. Go on i am waiting for your incoherent rambling of a reply.

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## Zarvan

Informant said:


> The US has bases in all the GCC countries. KSA, they have their men service their planes. They have their bases. In Qatar they have the largest base in the Arabian Gulf. In UAE they have a base. They fly their F-16s. I have it on the direct authority. The French maintained their Mirages while the American maintain the F-16s. Kuwait is a regular stop for US fleet and Bahrain has another base. US will attack them? They sell US oil at 1/5th or even at 1/10th the international price. Kuwait sold them oil at 10% price for years. All their expenditures in the Bases are taken up by respective Arab countries. Open your eyes, and learn about the world instead of spouting BS.
> 
> No, US will not lose an ally of such magnitude in the GCC. The Americans learn from their mistakes and that is the reason they did not go through with their threats on Syria. USA will neither attack Pakistan. But use people like you to destabilize Pakistan. People like you are so easy to buy its not even funny. Want to know what was Latif Mehsud doing with Afghanistan Intelligence in Logar province. Taking money from them to commit bullshit Jihad in Pakistan. You and your BS doesnt work on us. It might work on idiots who have no knowledge of world's political atmosphere but not us. No attack will ever happen on KSA from USA or Western world. Only Muslims will kill each other and I promise you that people like you are the reason why Islam is ruined everywhere.
> 
> I remember how fast the TTP claimed to NOT have carried out suicide bombing in Boston, Massachusetts. This is how scared they are, the last time their failed bombing attempt by Faisal Shahzad in NYC, resulted in 2 of their Ameers bown to pieces in drone strikes. Did you see their cowardliness how quick they were to say they did not do it. All your brethren do is attack Shia pilgrims, innocent travellers who visit Pakistan, kidnap doctors, run extortion gangs, suicide bombings, car bombings. All the criminal elements in Pakistan are associated to TTP. Murder, smuggling, drugs, robbery, such are your true Jihadis. I'm talkin about evidence that we actually have with us. Unlike you I dont talk out of my ***.
> 
> All you are good at is this secular traitor this and secular traitor that. Go on i am waiting for your incoherent rambling of a reply.


@KSA don't have their planes anymore TTP is not scared they said they are not the ones who did Boston but they support and when they attacked CIA they proudly claimed it that killed 7 CIA agents you blunders in tribal areas have resulted in this you killed them on USA orders you sold them to USA betrayed Muslims in Afghanistan and tribal areas mass murdered them and made blunders in Baluchistan now where RAW is most active still don't want to learn because off these blunders you will loose lot off your areas


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## Informant

Blunders my ***, i dont give two shits about "Muslims" in Afghanistan. If they failed to give up Bin Laden then it is their problem. I only care about my country. 
KSA has their planes, American and British pilots fly their planes, you not admitting wont change facts. I can even give you locations. Nobody is going to touch 
KSA especially when The Americans are paid by your beloved Arab brothers to have their bases and fleet. Yes Bahrain, UAE, KSA all supported USA in their war on Afghanistan. I was there when UAE gave their bases to them. Haha your arab Muslim brothers are no saints. For them their country comes first, and nothing wrong with them.

TTP is a terrorist scum and their death is coming soon, cowards hide behind children and women and then cry when they die. Pussies.

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## m haris khan

good news


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## nomi007

may be S/N 11-004

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## nomi007




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## Liquidmetal

nomi007 said:


>


Translation please.


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## BATMAN

Liquidmetal said:


> Translation please.



3 technicians named; Zafar Abbas, Waseem Iqbal & Chavez are found guilty of damaging erieye.

That's the head line... in detail is formal process.

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## Yzd Khalifa

Hah! Aren't you the same guy who claimed that all Arabs will vanish? - according to a prophecy he made up off his own religion -  

Your " claims " and the info you gave come at no shock at all. Let's start dissecting them one by one. 



> KSA, they have their men service their planes



In this world clowns are brought to make people laugh, but I'm afraid that you had gone far beyond where you can make them laugh, to the point where you are incredibly delusional  

See! these pilots aren't Saudis  

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uOzbx2USrrE



> I have it on the direct authority



These connections you brag about obviously lied to make you look like a fool  



> I remember how fast the TTP claimed to NOT have carried out suicide bombing in Boston, Massachusetts.



Had these connections on the authority told you that the Boston marathon bombings were a suicide attack?  

Just for the record, Boston bombing wasn't a suicide attack smarty  

And the TTP statement came in parallel with Al-Qaida! If any of the aforementioned terror groups would take full responsibility on that attack it definitely will be a disgrace to them. 

Basically, the Boston bombing was carried by a fanboy, a firecracker attack on US soil isn't their thing, they want to target something of great value, significance, and important to the infidel US  

So it isn't about how " scared " the Taliban or Al-Qaida was, it is about the significance of the target. Other than that, you will want to look at how quick they were when they took full responsibility on the Afghan-based USAF base a few mounts ago - when they could have the chance to blame the Northern alliance for it after the US proposal to resume talks with the Taliban, something that had always angered the Northern Alliance. 



> KSA has their planes, American and British pilots fly their planes



 

RSAF exercise with the USAF 

You see how American these RSAF pilots look like? 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1RQnrADXdlQ

http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.PrintContent&action=Print&contentID=00000000106504

RSAF recent exercise with the RAF 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GLj-HkMcK2I

https://defence.pk/threads/saudi-british-green-flag-exercise-2013.284750/



> you not admitting wont change facts.



Every claim - I countered - you made is a blatant lie, you lack evidence, and coherence. 



> I can even give you locations.



Can you give me the locations where British and American pilots operate the RSAF fighter jets? I'm in the KSA's Security Agency, I would be interested to hear what you have got in hand  



> I only care about my country.



Tbqh, Idk what is your country but let it burn in hell or prosper, just don't say lies  

@JUBA @Arabian Legend @BLACKEAGLE @Armstrong @Aeornaut @BATMAN 





Informant said:


> The US has bases in all the GCC countries. KSA, they have their men service their planes. They have their bases. In Qatar they have the largest base in the Arabian Gulf. In UAE they have a base. They fly their F-16s. I have it on the direct authority. The French maintained their Mirages while the American maintain the F-16s. Kuwait is a regular stop for US fleet and Bahrain has another base. US will attack them? They sell US oil at 1/5th or even at 1/10th the international price. Kuwait sold them oil at 10% price for years. All their expenditures in the Bases are taken up by respective Arab countries. Open your eyes, and learn about the world instead of spouting BS.
> 
> No, US will not lose an ally of such magnitude in the GCC. The Americans learn from their mistakes and that is the reason they did not go through with their threats on Syria. USA will neither attack Pakistan. But use people like you to destabilize Pakistan. People like you are so easy to buy its not even funny. Want to know what was Latif Mehsud doing with Afghanistan Intelligence in Logar province. Taking money from them to commit bullshit Jihad in Pakistan. You and your BS doesnt work on us. It might work on idiots who have no knowledge of world's political atmosphere but not us. No attack will ever happen on KSA from USA or Western world. Only Muslims will kill each other and I promise you that people like you are the reason why Islam is ruined everywhere.
> 
> I remember how fast the TTP claimed to NOT have carried out suicide bombing in Boston, Massachusetts. This is how scared they are, the last time their failed bombing attempt by Faisal Shahzad in NYC, resulted in 2 of their Ameers bown to pieces in drone strikes. Did you see their cowardliness how quick they were to say they did not do it. All your brethren do is attack Shia pilgrims, innocent travellers who visit Pakistan, kidnap doctors, run extortion gangs, suicide bombings, car bombings. All the criminal elements in Pakistan are associated to TTP. Murder, smuggling, drugs, robbery, such are your true Jihadis. I'm talkin about evidence that we actually have with us. Unlike you I dont talk out of my ***.
> 
> All you are good at is this secular traitor this and secular traitor that. Go on i am waiting for your incoherent rambling of a reply.






Informant said:


> Blunders my ***, i dont give two shits about "Muslims" in Afghanistan. If they failed to give up Bin Laden then it is their problem. I only care about my country.
> KSA has their planes, American and British pilots fly their planes, you not admitting wont change facts. I can even give you locations. Nobody is going to touch
> KSA especially when The Americans are paid by your beloved Arab brothers to have their bases and fleet. Yes Bahrain, UAE, KSA all supported USA in their war on Afghanistan. I was there when UAE gave their bases to them. Haha your arab Muslim brothers are no saints. For them their country comes first, and nothing wrong with them.
> 
> TTP is a terrorist scum and their death is coming soon, cowards hide behind children and women and then cry when they die. Pussies.

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## Informant

Yzd Khalifa said:


> ......
> Snippity Snip!



Boston bombing, as it was i mustve made a mistake calling it a suicide, was a pressure cooker bomb by 2 Chechnian immigrant bros i suppose having delusional dreams of Jihad.

The TTP are a bunch of opportunists they will attach their names wherever it helps them, you need to realize these guys spew hatred with religion in the mix. And trust me they did get scared, had you seen the situation closely in Pakistan they only took claim to attacks the people were impervious or at the least had "less" civilian casualties. Such is the state of my country where killings in the name o religion is not condemned. 

They didnt take claim to a series of significant blasts that rocked my city, **** man the whole country, but we knew it was them. Thats how the game is played, im sure you know that. My people are easy to sway over religion than Arabs which is one thing I seriously wish we had, nationalism > Ummah.

My claims about KSA and other Arab world doesnt belittle them but it is only said so that you guys take nationalism very seriously which is what i admire, and want my country men to drop their goggles of Islam and Ummah BS.

When i mentioned the things about Arabs being wiped out it was in reply to that crzy nutjob fundo who believes in this exactly and the Islamic renaissance from Pakistan area. Do you not realise their support for extremist organizations in Pakistan is on that basis? I only used his beliefs to counter his bs loyalty. I have serious reservations over our religion so I am the last person to believe in this Arab wiping out and Islamic reniassance bs from our Area. My god these make me cringe as they have no timeline, can happen tomorrow or another billion years and i was using it show him the err of his thinking ways.

I have no hate for Arabs, except for the shawarmas in KSA i had in buns for ****'s sake, buns! Buns! WTF. Growin up in UAE I have seen what it is like, the way the locals would tow to Westerners would make anyone sick and cringe. The blatant disregard to societal norms and unmasked institutionalised prejudice man. This is the UAE i grew up in, its better now, the prejudice is still there, but its waning. My family is in UAE, best place after Lahore. You can hate a few things about the people where you grew up in.

Oh we have complete details of UAE's Dhafra airbase, these guys need to have their security upped. I'll tell you a bit about the nature of my work. What we do is mine for data, open ended, encrypted data that is "secured" but not really. If you're into networks and data transmission it's mind boggling even the most secure transmissions are unsafe, depending upon the timeframe and resources. My organization works on anything related to software. From JF-17 SD-10 integration to data mining. You being in security i am sure you are well versed in such knowledge.

One thing might have pissed you off would be my claims about KSA's AF? I speak on behalf of our data and info from our staff who have been stationed there. Now you might say i am BSing which may be true, but i seriously doubt my info. I dont mean whities flying your jets ( in case of UAE that shit is guaranteed ) just means that you guys have trainers and ground staff there.

My country as you might have deduced is Pakistan, and we have seen the effect of Saudi funded madrassas, which I believe is more of our fault as beggers cant be choosers. And we love to beg. Our short sighted goals and lack of hindsight displayed by our leaders is bearing fruits. You guys have a strict interpretation of Islam and when that collides with the style of worship over here, then we see what is happening. No this isnt a jab at KSA, the govt is good intentioned, it just doesnt seem to bear fruit as much as we need it to.

I actually am dejected at the state of my country but what can i say we strive for future. I'm in a 3rd world country busting my *** to make it a better place, so far all the efforts seem useless.

I hate saudi drivers though, you guys seriously need to re evaluate your licensing dept. In the end all my over the top post is in response to this Zaravan character. All he does is call one sir this sir that, and the next thing he does is espouse religious dogma mixed with violence and delusions. It gets too much when you deal with these likes daily at a personal level.


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## nomi007




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## Liquidmetal

BATMAN said:


> 3 technicians named; Zafar Abbas, Waseem Iqbal & Chavez are found guilty of damaging erieye.
> 
> That's the head line... in detail is formal process.



You mean to say that the remaining Erieye has now been damaged by our own PAF people. What the heck? what is wrong with us? Why?


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## Jango

nomi007 said:


>



Has PAF gone completely nuts? That is the image being given by this article.

A technician being blamed for the destruction of an aircraft, and that technician was the one who was the first to respond and tried to extinguish the flame!

This is so effing ridiculous.

The base commander and DSG in charge should be the ones being court martialled, not 3 technicians.


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## Zarvan

nuclearpak said:


> Has PAF gone completely nuts? That is the image being given by this article.
> 
> A technician being blamed for the destruction of an aircraft, and that technician was the one who was the first to respond and tried to extinguish the flame!
> 
> This is so effing ridiculous.
> 
> The base commander and DSG in charge should be the ones being court martialled, not 3 technicians.


Sir they were most probably partners of attackers they were the insiders who gave them information Sir just like Mehran base attack


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## Dazzler

for two nights till the dawn, zdk_03 is roaming the karachi skies


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## nomi007

may be S/N 11-004

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## Zarvan

@nomi007 is it the one which we ordered from China


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## nomi007

Zarvan said:


> @nomi007 is it the one which we ordered from China


yes 4 were ordered
read this article





*ZDK-03* (Y-8CS?) is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (S/N T0518/Y-8CE) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike *KJ-200*, this variant carries a traditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. The PESA radar is thought to scan electronically in elevation but mechanically in azimuth. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than *KJ-200* which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose and tail with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as small vertical stabilizers attached to its tailplanes. Another two MAWS sensors are attached to the tailcone as well. Additional fairings are seen at the wingtips and the tail housing ESM antennas. The Y-8 AWACS prototype flew to Pakistan and was evaluated by Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now named *ZDK-03* (_ZDK_ means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade high efficiency propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m contract. The first *ZDK-03* prototype rolled out in November 2010 at SAC. Since then it has been undergoing test at CFTE (S/N 733). *ZDK-03* is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the *JF-17* fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore *ZDK-03* operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The first *ZDK-03* (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 11-002) was delivered some time later. The delivery of third *ZDK-03* (12-003) is pending in May 2013.


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## Nishan_101

nomi007 said:


> may be S/N 11-004



PN should negotiate for 3 of these...


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## Side-Winder



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## Nishan_101

We need to work with EU on sensors...


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## TaimiKhan

nomi007 said:


> may be S/N 11-004



This one is not ours, this is the on which China is making for its ownself. And it seems to be different then ours, first notice the grey stripe, seems to be an extra set of ECM system, which ours lack, plus the Chinese being labelled as KJ-500 seems to have a 3 sided AESA radar arrangement. We have two sided or may be 1 sided radar configuration. Both different platforms.


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## farhan_9909

TaimiKhan said:


> This one is not ours, this is the on which China is making for its ownself. And it seems to be different then ours, first notice the grey stripe, seems to be an extra set of ECM system, which ours lack, plus the Chinese being labelled as KJ-500 seems to have a 3 sided AESA radar arrangement. We have two sided or may be 1 sided radar configuration. Both different platforms.



ZDK-03 is a PESA while even the older chinese kj-200 is a AESA,this new Kj-500 is a aesa with 3 aesa radar arrangement.

We bought 4 ZDK-03 for just 270million dollars.while the cost of each saab 2000 was more than 200million dollars.One can now guess the difference between the cost and capabilities.

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## Basel

> ZDK-03 is a PESA while even the older Chinese kj-200 is a AESA,this new Kj-500 is a aesa with 3 aesa radar arrangement.



Why we bought PESA configuration? when china had AESA available and if this is below the capabilities of our Erieye than how it will handle advance EW and related capabilities of India?


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## he-man

here for convenience of newbies




 


farhan_9909 said:


> ZDK-03 is a PESA while even the older chinese kj-200 is a AESA,this new Kj-500 is a aesa with 3 aesa radar arrangement.
> 
> We bought 4 ZDK-03 for just 270million dollars.while the cost of each saab 2000 was more than 200million dollars.One can now guess the difference between the cost and capabilities.



yes saab 2000 is s band aesa 


Basel said:


> Why we bought PESA configuration? when china had AESA available and if this is below the capabilities of our Erieye than how it will handle advance EW and related capabilities of India?



zdk-03 will not even stand against the drdo awacs which has s-band aesa too like eriye.

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## SQ8

farhan_9909 said:


> ZDK-03 is a PESA while even the older chinese kj-200 is a AESA,this new Kj-500 is a aesa with 3 aesa radar arrangement.
> 
> We bought 4 ZDK-03 for just 270million dollars.while the cost of each saab 2000 was more than 200million dollars.One can now guess the difference between the cost and capabilities.





he-man said:


> here for convenience of newbies
> 
> 
> 
> yes saab 2000 is s band aesa
> 
> zdk-03 will not even stand against the drdo awacs which has s-band aesa too like eriye.



The ZDK-03 has a vertical scan AESA.. i.e. its scan only is active vertically. But as such it is longer ranged but inferior in scan resolution than the Erieye. 
Face it, our military is out of cash and out of options..

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## Chak Bamu

Oscar said:


> The ZDK-03 has a vertical scan AESA.. i.e. its scan only is active vertically. But as such it is longer ranged but inferior in scan resolution than the Erieye.
> Face it, our military is out of cash and out of options..



But how does that translate into lesser capability and what difference does it make? None of Indian aircraft are Low Observable as far as I know. Given the ZDK-03's ability to provide surveillance and warning, I would not be complaining especially given the price and financing likely provided by Chinese friends.

Just a thought - could Erieye's capabilities include ability to provide accurate targeting information to a BVR missile fired by a combat plane? That is the only difference that I could imagine arising out of the difference in scan resolution between Erieye and ZDK-03. This is just a guess and I would like more knowledgeable forum members to provide more information. I would really like @gambit to comment on this, if he please.

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## nomi007



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## Dazzler

radar is AESA housed in a rotating disk thus has full 360 deg sanning which Erieye lacks, search range is more than Erieye but radar scan speed maybe inferior to the latter, it seems to have good sea state (multiple modes) scanning capability which is why it usually roams around the coast. Night time patrolling indicates it has a capable night vision suite as well.

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## SQ8

Dazzler said:


> radar is AESA housed in a rotating disk thus has full 360 deg sanning which Erieye lacks, search range is more than Erieye but radar scan speed maybe inferior to the latter, it seems to have good sea state (multiple modes) scanning capability which is why it usually roams around the coast. Night time patrolling indicates it has a capable night vision suite as well.




Nothing to do with a NVG suite. It is a radar system and hence is not limited by day or night. Moreover, it is a certified for IFR hence it goes around at night.

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## Dazzler

Oscar said:


> Nothing to do with a NVG suite. It is a radar system and hence is not limited by day or night. Moreover, it is a certified for IFR hence it goes around at night.



just clarified some misconceptions about its supposed"iferiority".

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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Nothing to do with a NVG suite. It is a radar system and hence is not limited by day or night. Moreover, *it is a certified for IFR *hence it goes around at night.



But no fixed probe hanging anywhere in ZDK-03?


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## Bratva

Chak Bamu said:


> But how does that translate into lesser capability and what difference does it make? None of Indian aircraft are Low Observable as far as I know. Given the ZDK-03's ability to provide surveillance and warning, I would not be complaining especially given the price and financing likely provided by Chinese friends.
> 
> Just a thought - could Erieye's capabilities include ability to provide accurate targeting information to a BVR missile fired by a combat plane? That is the only difference that I could imagine arising out of the difference in scan resolution between Erieye and ZDK-03. This is just a guess and I would like more knowledgeable forum members to provide more information. I would really like @gambit to comment on this, if he please.



Hopefully this may answer your query




Sapper said:


> Dear,
> 
> A bit of correction required, since presented information is being attributed to me.
> 
> 1. Erieye uses AESA 75 deg on either side of perpendicular, meaning 75+75 = 150 deg on one side, 150 deg on the otherside, totaling 300 degree of total instantaneous coverage on both sides. Information is extracted from Erieye Brochures, and is confirmed since it is based on manufacturer's claims.
> 
> 2. ZDK-03 must have atleast 60 deg on either side of perpendicular, meaning 120 deg cone, atleast. Information is a guess from my side as Chinese KJ2000 and KJ200 have AESA with atleast the same specs, but it could be higher. I have no hard evidence to support this because Chinese AESA have not been formally presented in any brochures etc. I am still looking for evidences regarding this, but so far no hard evidence.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper






S10 said:


> If I am not mistaken, ZDK-03 features two AESA arrays instead of three on KJ-2000, therefore a rotating dome is needed. The lack of third array is purely a cost saving consideration.





Sapper said:


> Thats not the ONLY reason, another reason is that a larger array can be placed in a rotating dome giving more range, while placing triangular dome reduces the size of each array by ~20%.
> 
> A simple trignometric analysis shows that the maximum array size of triangular dome (like KJ2000 and Phalcon) is 20% less than a straight radial array along its diameter (like E-3-Sentry, E-2D-Hawkeye, ZDK03).
> 
> Moreover, previously the pulse doppler version of rotating domes gave a 20sec radar darkness over any perticular point due to the fact that they could only illuminate targets in direct line of sight in perpendicular to the array, but the AESA doesnot have that restriction. Instead AESA can electronically steer a radar beam to illuminate 60 degrees to either side of perpendicular. This covers 120 degree to each side totalling 240 degrees of instantaneous view, while leaving 60 degree on each corner in radar darkness. When rotating at same speed of 40 sec per rotation, same as with pulse dopler version, it will illuminate a full 360 degree circle in 6 seconds. Thus a target is re-illuminated 6 seconds after it goes into dark region. Also this is assuming ZDK-03 has AESA with 120 degree field of view, which is only an assumption. In actuality it might have 150 degree field of view AESA (like Erieye atop Saab2000) which will reduce re-acquisition time to 3 sec.
> 
> One more thing to note is that fixed dome suffers from constant side lobe attenuations in regions deviating close its electronic steering boundary, for extended periods of time; while giving good target data at regions close to perpendicular. On the other hand, rotating dome ensures maximum search precision for all 360 degrees within a maximum of 10 seconds, and that too without changing the heading of the platform itself.
> 
> If you ask me, having 20% plus range is much much more desirable than 3 seconds of radar darkness, *besides* being cost effective as well.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper











Sapper said:


> Now my first assumption is that two complimenting AESAs are placed inside the rotating dome, i.e. the similar kind of double sided Erieye configuration, but in rotating configuration. This is based on the assumption that
> 1. Dual sided aesa was already available with china on Y-8 platform at similar cost, but not opted for by PAF,
> 2. AESA is comparatively thin and does not require additional wasted space for dedicated transmitter assembly on the backside, since every single unit is itself a transmitter reciever on its own.
> 3. China already posses the technology to fit 3xAESA in a radome and 2xAESA in sandwitch-BalanceBeam configurations, placing the balance beam config would have been no problem to place into a rotating radome.
> 
> If thats the case for ZDK-03 (unless proven on the contrary) I will proceed with the following calculations.
> 
> 
> Assume 40 sec per rotation, which is normal, and 120 arch illumination (60 deg from perpedicular) for AESA array, which is also normal.
> 360 deg per 40 sec = 9 deg per sec (RotationSpeed)
> 
> Assume a target is at 0-deg, Radar starts spinning, at radar's-0-deg, target is fully perpedicular and perfectly lit
> Radar goes to 45-deg, still lit.
> Radar goes 60-deg, still lit.
> Radar goes 61-deg, target lost.
> Now radar goes 90-deg, target is still lost.
> Radar goes 119-deg, still lost.
> Now radar comes to 120 deg, still lost for the array pointing 120, but the array facing exactly opposite to it i.e. at 120+180 deg = 300-deg has illumination till 360 deg, which is the same as 0-deg, target lit by opposing array, target acquired.
> 
> Now target lost at 61-deg ... and reacquired at 120-deg.
> Lost-Time = 60-deg / RotationSpeed = 60 / 9 = 6.6 sec
> 
> 
> I may be wrong, and ZDK-03 might only have a single AESA pointing to one side, as in legacy E3Sentry, in which case the re-acquisition will take 26 seconds to re-acquire target, but lets wait for the time when PAF or China releases specs. If thats the case apologies in advance.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper

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## Nishan_101

But the fact is that PN needs at least 3 AWACs...


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## gambit

Chak Bamu said:


> But how does that translate into lesser capability and what difference does it make? None of Indian aircraft are Low Observable as far as I know. Given the ZDK-03's ability to provide surveillance and warning, I would not be complaining especially given the price and financing likely provided by Chinese friends.
> 
> Just a thought - *could Erieye's capabilities include ability to provide accurate targeting information to a BVR missile fired by a combat plane?* That is the only difference that I could imagine arising out of the difference in scan resolution between Erieye and ZDK-03. This is just a guess and I would like more knowledgeable forum members to provide more information. I would really like @gambit to comment on this, if he please.


There are two ways a missile could be 'guided': radar and data.

- *Radar*. This is where another radar source, assume an AWACS for convenience, illuminate a target, then the missile uses any reflections as guidance beacon.

Like this...







It does not matter if the above illustration have the radar source as the parent missile launcher. The principle is still the same: the missile uses an external radar source.

- *Data*. This is where another radar source, assume an AWACS for convenience, illuminate a target, analyzes that information, then transmit that information to the missile. This is not saying: 'Turn here or there.' That would be command guidance. This is saying: 'The target is at X altitude, moving at Y speed, and at Z heading.' That is target data. The missile then analyzes its own position in relation to the target and make appropriate maneuvers.

Which of the above is applicable to the Erieye ? I will leave that answer to the Pakistani members to research.

However, the simplest answer would be 'radar'. This method places the burden of target guidance entirely upon the missile. All the AWACS does is provide target illumination. If the AWACS is threatened by hostiles or struck by lightning and cannot sustain target illumination over a certain duration, then the missile is SOL (sh1t out of luck), as we Americans would say.

Data guidance have the advantage in that the source radar can 'burst' target information and this tactic is often used in heavy EM traffic situation, which could include countermeasures by the enemy. The companion issue here is how to preserve data integrity, which includes encryption so as not to provide false guidance to others. Greater sophistication would be for multiple friendly assets to use the same data guidance to attack a target from directions. The disadvantage is that both sender and receiver of data must have the same level of technical sophistication.

If the missile have its own radar package, that would be helpful for either of the above. The missile could use its own radar to illuminate the target and uses that information to correlate external guidance information. A fully 'active' missile, like the American AMRAAM for example, is the best way to go. With its own radar package, it could work with less sophisticated radar systems via 'raw' target illumination from any external source, or it could be 'silent' and be in 'beamrider' mode towards a target, or switches from active to passive to correlate as it flies.

Can an AWACS provide both radar and data guidance as situations demands? Absolutely.

Does the Erieye ? You guys will have to research for that.

Erieye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> The Erieye AEW&C mission system radar is an active, phased-array, pulse-doppler sensor that can feed an onboard operator architecture or downlink data (via an associated datalink subsystem) to a ground-based air defence network.


The wiki source seems to imply so, but it is rather limited and quite narrow in focus: a ground based air defense network. But at least the ability to transmit formulated data is there, and not just providing raw target illumination.

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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> But no fixed probe hanging anywhere in ZDK-03?



IFR= Instrument flight rating.

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## Chak Bamu

Thanks @gambit. BTW I am a yellow jacket and you need not worry about translating American idioms. I get 'em, or at least most of 'em. For the rest I think I have the requisite cultural perspective, having spent years in Mid West and South.

So, what I have learned is that the required technological sophistication is probably available, now whether or not Pakistanis are able / willing / permitted to use that capability is another matter.

But my question really was whether ZDK-03 is inferior in not providing a particular capability vis-a-vis Erieye. @mafiya has quoted posts from the past on this matter, but for me that does not clarify the issue well enough.

But never mind though. There are somethings people like me are not meant to know. They are best kept secret or under the cover of ambiguity.


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## gambit

Chak Bamu said:


> Thanks @gambit. BTW I am a yellow jacket and you need not worry about translating American idioms. I get 'em, or at least most of 'em. For the rest I think I have the requisite cultural perspective, having spent years in Mid West and South.
> 
> *So, what I have learned is that the required technological sophistication is probably available, now whether or not Pakistanis are able / willing / permitted to use that capability is another matter.
> 
> But my question really was whether ZDK-03 is inferior in not providing a particular capability vis-a-vis Erieye. *@mafiya has quoted posts from the past on this matter, but for me that does not clarify the issue well enough.
> 
> But never mind though. There are somethings people like me are not meant to know. They are best kept secret or under the cover of ambiguity.


What I explained was high level to clear up some misconceptions. At the lower levels, things get more technically problematic, but not impossible.

Take the American AMRAAM, for example, in pure receiver mode. I cannot simply fire-and-forget it in any environment and be confident that the missile will accept any target reflections created by a French AWACS, even though the French, Brits, and the Saudis uses the Boeing E-3. Inside every radar transmission are 'marker' signatures similar to IFF queries. The missile must be able to extract this identifier from target reflections in order to find the correct target, else the missile would be vulnerable to even innocuous atmospheric interference, let alone deliberate countermeasures.

So which is superior, the Erieye or the ZDK, in this regard? Neither. In pure receiver mode, the burden of target acquisition falls entirely upon the missile, remember? So if I, the AWACS maker, told you the transmission specs, it is up to you, the missile maker, to extract the relevant information to use.

High level? A missile can use reflections produced by an external source.

Low level? A missile must be able to somehow correctly identify the reflections as legitimate.

An example of this is with infrared sensor/guidance. IR is essentially produced by heat and currently, no one can manipulate IR radiation the way we can manipulate radar emissions. So there is really no way for an IR sensor to distinguish jet engine IR radiation from a cluster of flares. Even the sun can distract an IR sensor.

So which is superior, the Erieye or the ZDK, when it comes to providing target data from analyzing their own respective radar illumination of a target? We have to look at the sales brochures to see which have that capability, let alone buying/modifying missiles to exploit that capability.

So which is superior, the Erieye or the ZDK, when it comes to providing both radar illumination and target data analyses and guidance?

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## nomi007

OMG
IS IT TRUE?



DAily express source
we lost 3 awacs


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## Liquidmetal

nomi007 said:


> OMG
> IS IT TRUE?
> 
> 
> 
> DAily express source
> we lost 3 awacs


wtf? heads should roll if true

really upset at this

and damned annoyed the PAF has hidden this to hide their incompetence.


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## BATMAN

nomi007 said:


> OMG
> IS IT TRUE?
> 
> 
> 
> DAily express source
> we lost 3 awacs



I agree principally, technicians may have nothing to do with the security.
Unless they were partners of attackers and were facilitating them etc. in which case they all needed to face firing squad.


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## nomi007

BATMAN said:


> I agree principally, technicians may have nothing to do with the security.
> Unless they were partners of attackers and were facilitating them etc. in which case they all needed to face firing squad.


but losing 3 AWACS and than saying our security is full proof
after attack on p=3 orions why paf did not built hangers for them
really feel sham

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## BATMAN

nomi007 said:


> but losing 3 AWACS and than saying our security is full proof
> after attack on p=3 orions why paf did not built hangers for them
> really feel sham



Are you being suspicious of an Indian penetration in PAF, at policy level?

What a shame, Musharraf got them AWACS and they were unable to build bomb prof hangers for them.


----------



## Panther 57

BATMAN said:


> I agree principally, technicians may have nothing to do with the security.
> Unless they were partners of attackers and were facilitating them etc. in which case they all needed to face firing squad.


Dear Batman, No base can have a dedicated security force. All personnel being already trained perform security duty according to pre-defined roster. Even officers have to perform security duties according to a roster. Therefore, deployment of technicians is not of surprise. However, this is surprising that only technicians are being tried. 

↑
but losing 3 AWACS and than saying our security is full proof
after attack on p=3 orions why paf did not built hangers for them
really feel sham
Are you being suspicious of an Indian penetration in PAF, at policy level?

Agents can be present in all the institutions at all the levels. Internal security keeps weeding those out periodically. Giving you an example Mr Hussain Haqqani he was an influential agent. Such agents act at the time of policy making. Or for that matter what will you call a PM who is dying to allow indians to visit Pakistan freely, whereas Indian government is doing all it can to stop Pakistani's visit India, using techniques like mandatory sponsorship letter from a Hindu first class civil servant.

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## nomi007

BATMAN said:


> Are you being suspicious of an Indian penetration in PAF, at policy level?
> 
> What a shame, Musharraf got them AWACS and they were unable to build bomb prof hangers for them.


it was duty of armed forces to protect high value assets not ppp or pml n
i m so sad from last 2 days
now any idea what is the next plan of inducting new awacs

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## BATMAN

nomi007 said:


> it was duty of armed forces to protect high value assets not ppp or pml n
> i m so sad from last 2 days
> now any idea what is the next plan of inducting new awacs



I didn't mentioned, PPP and PML-N, but they both got to decide, who would head armed forces, PAF & Navy, Nuclear research program, or any head of any institution..... who in turn got to decide who get promoted in the respective institutions and in case of some institutions, hiring at lower level is also decide by political parties, who in turn earn foreign trips/awards and funding from abroad.

No... armed forces do not protect AWACS or build hangers.... for some reasons, PAF and mainly JF-17 program has been targeted by Asif Ali Zardari by squeezing there funds.
Armed forces only stand guard to nuclear assets and have stood fast in the face of Zardari.
Pak nukes not safe in Zardari presence - thenews.com.pk

Does any one had any idea, where is previous ACM these days?

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## nomi007

BATMAN said:


> I didn't mentioned, PPP and PML-N, but they both got to decide, who would head armed forces, PAF & Navy, Nuclear research program, or any head of any institution..... who in turn got to decide who get promoted in the respective institutions and in case of some institutions, hiring at lower level is also decide by political parties, who in turn earn foreign trips/awards and funding from abroad.
> 
> No... armed forces do not protect AWACS or build hangers.... for some reasons, PAF and mainly JF-17 program has been targeted by Asif Ali Zardari by squeezing there funds.
> Armed forces only stand guard to nuclear assets and have stood fast in the face of Zardari.
> Pak nukes not safe in Zardari presence - thenews.com.pk
> 
> Does any one had any idea, where is previous ACM these days?


blaming zardari aur any other leader is not the solution
freezing funds is sharamnak but i am asking of protection


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## nomi007

sargoda

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## DV RULES

Strange to read that 3 aircrafts were lost and if it is true than it's big question on the ability of air force in protecting their assets.

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## Imran Khan

DV RULES said:


> Strange to read that 3 aircrafts were lost and if it is true than it's big question on the ability of air force in protecting their assets.


its strange to know now ? it was starnge to know even after kamra attack they were sleeping and worshiping god that night hahahahaha



nomi007 said:


> View attachment 10902
> sargoda


 last remains baby lolzz

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## Imran Khan

A jao bhai *مست ماحول تے مٹھے چاول* . taliban ki dawat ka bandobast dekho . PAF ne AWACS ko dhoop main khara kiya hai to PN ne sara fleet usi jaga open la khara kiya hai mehran base per  the day when mehran attacked 3 P3C were on this tarmac recent image show 4

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## DV RULES

Imran Khan said:


> A jao bhai *مست ماحول تے مٹھے چاول* . taliban ki dawat ka bandobast dekho . PAF ne AWACS ko dhoop main khara kiya hai to PN ne sara fleet usi jaga open la khara kiya hai mehran base per  the day when mehran attacked 3 P3C were on this tarmac recent image show 4



Issue is not over number of air crafts present on base but security where they should give maximum attention.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Imran Khan said:


> its strange to know now ? it was starnge to know even after kamra attack they were sleeping and *worshiping god* that night hahahahaha
> last remains baby lolzz


Allah can't help in this situation.. Professional people should believe in their abilities.. Allah even can't protect mosque and his people while people worshipping to him... These are 1 Billion dollar worth of AWACS.. Spending some millions for security is not difficult deal while we are spending millions every month for security of VVIP ministers & parliamentarians...... We have not 5000 AWACS...We have only few AWACS... and these are strategic assets that will work for F16s , JF17s, j31s..... AWACS is very Long eye for Jf17 and F16s .......... if PAF can't protect first line strategic asset then it is raising serious questions on their professional status.....

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## Imran Khan

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Allah can't help in the situation.. Professional people should believe in their abilities.. Allah even can't protect mosque and his people while people worshipping for him... These are 1 Billion dollar worth AWACS.. Spending some millions for security of AWACS is not difficult deal while we are spending millions every month for security of VVIP ministers & parliamentarians...... We have not 5000 AWACS...We have only few AWACS... and these are strategic assets that will work for F16s and JF17s..... AWACS is very Long eye for Jf17 and F16s .......... if PAF can't protect first line strategic asset then it is raising serious questions on their professional status.....




same happen is sukkur ISI office attack they were busy is aftaar  these people have no brains at all

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## Munir

We might have excuses but we clearly fail to defend valuable assets. We clearly have no guts to punish the ones that failed. We clearly lack vision. And we are the ones that created and accepted these terrorists. Who can we blame? No one.

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## Chak Bamu

Terrorists have no compunction in using religion and religious practice as screen. Using Burqa to run away. Using iftaar & Suhr time for attack etc... They have no qualms. They are using religion to grasp power. This has happened throughout history and would continue. So, no surprises there.

I take strong exception to people using Allah's name in such a cavalier manner to support their views. One is a qadiani and the other is given to advertising his indulgence in alcoholic pleasures without any qualms. Nice pair of obfuscators who have precious little to do with religion. It is really a very shameless way of using religion at par with how terrorists build their narrative.

What do your rants have anything to do with the title of this thread? If you must discuss religion, open a thread in the appropriate section and discuss your brains out. Stop splatting your twisted views on every other thread!

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## Yogi

@Oscar
AFAIK F-16 aren't compatible with Chinese AWACs.

However, i read sometime back that they could be made compatible with ZDKs by use of ground systems as interface.

So, does Pakistan as of now possess such capabilities to use ZDKs with F-16s?
N if yes, then how effective will it be in comparision to Erieye.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Munir said:


> We might have excuses but we clearly fail to defend valuable assets. We clearly have no guts to punish the ones that failed. We clearly lack vision. And we are the ones that created and accepted these terrorists. Who can we blame? No one.



You are good at inside knowledge, Plz tell me where is *Erieye SE-045.*
We saw SE - 040, 049 & 025 in Pakistan but never saw SE-045, I am talking about pre kamra attack.
Do you have any news regarding it ?


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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> A jao bhai *مست ماحول تے مٹھے چاول* . taliban ki dawat ka bandobast dekho . PAF ne AWACS ko dhoop main khara kiya hai to PN ne sara fleet usi jaga open la khara kiya hai mehran base per  the day when mehran attacked 3 P3C were on this tarmac recent image show 4


qasam se yeh dekh k damag kharab ho raha hai
kindly ispr ko inform karo


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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> A jao bhai *مست ماحول تے مٹھے چاول* . taliban ki dawat ka bandobast dekho . PAF ne AWACS ko dhoop main khara kiya hai to PN ne sara fleet usi jaga open la khara kiya hai mehran base per  the day when mehran attacked 3 P3C were on this tarmac recent image show 4


PAF har AWACS ko 2-2 malte be rakh de

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## Sergi

DANGER-ZONE said:


> You are good at inside knowledge, Plz tell me where is *Erieye SE-045.*
> We saw SE - 040, 049 & 025 in Pakistan but never saw SE-045, I am talking about pre kamra attack.
> Do you have any news regarding it ?


Post #3623 on Page 182 might help you


> ↑
> @Oscar, serial numbers are 09049, 10040, 10025 and J-019.
> 
> 10045 has NEVER been photographed in PAF colors, NEVER has there been a clear photo. Only images are with civilian registration SE-045. So either PAF kept it perfectly secret, or it is doing something else.
> 
> 
> 
> No , then its perfectly clear. That is the company demonstrator much like our first Block-52. And is being used for tests and what not. Issue solved.
Click to expand...

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## DANGER-ZONE

Sergi said:


> Post #3623 on Page 182 might help you



Thank you bro ... but I am looking for Munir's reply. I know the story behind it just want to confirm from him.

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## Bratva

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Thank you bro ... but I am looking for Munir's reply. I know the story behind it just want to confirm from him.




just asking for a hint,, Is it intact or not?


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## DANGER-ZONE

mafiya said:


> just asking for a hint,, Is it intact or not?



Just wait for reply .... will discuss it if it turn out to be a positive one.


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## nomi007



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## Avinandan

nomi007 said:


> OMG
> IS IT TRUE?
> 
> 
> 
> DAily express source
> we lost 3 awacs



Could some one please translate this to english ?


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## Munir

It is obvious that taleban/ttp is not interested in assets like Orion or Erieye. Surely we can use them against terror but they are mainly for high tech warfare against high tech opponents. The idea that USA/Israel/India are behind the attack is a lot more logical. Personally I would not add Israel and USA. These nations have better solutions. On the other hand, this would be typical Indian terrorism activity.

Add to that the fact that PAF is unbelievable stupid in not protecting these assets. I think that one should see the loss of 1 Erieye equal to 1-2 squadrons of block 52. In that respect this is far beyond stupidity.

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## DANGER-ZONE

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 10962



Every single time they bring up the USA, Israel and Indian joint collaboration against Pakistan nonsense ..... even if it was, where the hell all the military / security guys were at that time ? on weed probably ! Three major failures for protecting our valuable assets and only young officers to blame. WAH WAH !


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## nomi007

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Every single time they bring up the USA, Israel and Indian joint collaboration against Pakistan nonsense ..... even if it was, where the hell all the military / security guys were at that time ? on weed probably ! Three major failures for protecting our valuable assets and only young officers to blame. WAH WAH !


i am crying for this check it out again all orions and c-130s aircrafts are station 1 by 1 in a row at pns mehran who is responsible for this junior officers or base commander




kindly inform the PA nd PAF
for security
after mehran and kamra attack again doing same mistake that is pathetic

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## Munir

The political arena has infected military arena. That is what you get by letting corrupt political parties elect their friends into the military leadership. You can call it seniority or good capabilities but still there is a relationship between selector and the elected. Surely we can be proud on PAF but there are issues that need to be resolved. And the blaming on lower ranks was one of the most stupid thing I have witnessed sofar. These guys risks everything and what do you do in return? Court martial? C'mon.


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## Kompromat

*IGNORE the trolls, don't reply, just report/mention the red team.*​


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## nomi007



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## aziqbal

So is it confirmed did we losse ERIEYE in the Kamra attack if so which one 

Has it been confirmed by PAF?


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## nomi007

aziqbal said:


> So is it confirmed did we losse ERIEYE in the Kamra attack if so which one
> 
> Has it been confirmed by PAF?


sir masjid main elaan karvain

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> sir masjid main elaan karvain


nhi sir jee thori sharam kareen PAF waaly

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## Ayush

RAMPAGE said:


> @Dillinger @S.U.R.B. @Ayush
> 
> Guys suggest some tv series !!!


Yaar this is not naswarville 
Btw, I don't watch em


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## RAMPAGE

Ayush said:


> Yaar this is not naswarville
> Btw, I don't watch em


Wrong tab


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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> nhi sir jee thori sharam kareen PAF waaly


Imran bhai
sharam hoti to base commander ko pansi na de te
again same mistake

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## mughaljee

Doob Maroo.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Base commander ko phansi do ya sara paisa recover Karo. Iski tmam property zabt karo. Nanga Karo isay public mein. 20 percent defense nanga ker dya hai is ny

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## Imran Khan

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Base commander ko phansi do ya sara paisa recover Karo. Iski tmam property zabt karo. Nanga Karo isay public mein. 20 percent defense nanga ker dya hai is ny


 lolzzz no benifit still 200mn$ only zardari nawaz ko nanga kerny se nikaly ja sakty hain


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## BATMAN

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Base commander ko phansi do ya sara paisa recover Karo. Iski tmam property zabt karo. Nanga Karo isay public mein. 20 percent defense nanga ker dya hai is ny



IMO, there should be another inquiry lead by rtd. general Pasha.



Imran Khan said:


> lolzzz no benifit still 200mn$ only zardari nawaz ko nanga kerny se nikaly ja sakty hain



Dr. TuQ has made all politicians nanga, incl. judiciary, nothing is recovered yet!


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## nomi007




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## user1

Some of the *google maps* images are quite old, as much as *three years old*. There is a possibility that this picture is not recent. 

I am also of the view that all the attacks on Pakistani surveillance aircrafts started in the *aftermath of death of Osama bin Laden* when one US helicopter was downed and many US Navy Seals died, although, there death was only announced some time later with the crashing of a Chinook in Afghanistan. Americans had to improvise from that time and concoct a story for the death of Osama which has been widely ridiculed. 

Considering that the choppers used in Operation Neptune Spear could have been *detected by one of the spy planes*; Americans tried to punish Pakistanis by attacking on airbases housing these surveillance crafts. 

The terrorists found on PNS base were all form Central Asia (DNA analysis). Before breaking up with Uzbekistan, *US had taken thousands of young Uzbeks to USA *who were trained for terrorist activities in the region.

There was a* tattoo *on the back of one of the TTP terrorists which could not have been made inside Afghanistan. When young, we used to have a Moulvi Sahib come to our home to teach us Quran. He had burnt skin on the back of his hand. When asked, he told that in his youth he had a tatto of rose there, but as he became more religious, he* poured acid* on that. I am talking about* a Sunni Barelvi Moulvi*, not the Wahabbis which form the core of TTP and are much strict in their interpretation of Islam.

Afterwards, 

1. Maybe *security was improved*, which thwarted further attacks.
2. Or *Camp Bastion Attack *told Americans that they should be prepared for reciprocity.
3. Or maybe some sort of *settlement* had been reached. 

In my opinion, in all likelihood, there is *a far lesser chance of any attack of that kind happening in the future.* These are only my views, which are only tentative. And Quran always tells us to be prepared. Being vigilant is our duty.

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## skyknight



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## hurt

skyknight said:


>


50% off sale for PAK

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## Capt.Popeye

user1 said:


> Some of the *google maps* images are quite old, as much as *three years old*. There is a possibility that this picture is not recent.
> _._


 


_That is not true at all._ Read the "imagery date" below that picture. Its 5th June 2013.
_That is certainly recent._


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## cnleio

skyknight said:


>


Inside ZDK-03 AEWC, China offered 4x ZDK-03 to PAF. They r GOOD, it's hi-tech !

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## nomi007

glass cockpit looks great
ALLAH PAK in PA ko in ki hifazat ki tofeek atta kare
ameen

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## Dazzler

three delivered as of now, one remaining...

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## Dazzler

just took moments ago

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## fatman17

if 3rd delivered it has an upgraded radar.


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## hassan1



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## nomi007

hope zdk- 03 will be upgraded in future if necessary to kj-500 standard

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## Nishan_101

I think that out of 3, one should be dedicated for Maritime at the moment and especially at night time... on daily basis. Although PN has a clear requirement of at least 3 of these.


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> if 3rd delivered it has an upgraded radar.


can you point out some upgrades that the third one have?

also any idea is the first two will be brought up to same level?

regards!


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## DANGER-ZONE

Arsalan said:


> can you point out some upgrades that the third one have?
> 
> also any idea is the first two will be brought up to same level?
> 
> regards!

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## Nishan_101

hassan1 said:


>



Can we now use HJ-6 as AEW&Cs, ELINT/SIGNIT/EW and may be as ASW aircraft???



skyknight said:


>



Better to join China on Electrical and Electronics development to make our own.

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## Imran Khan

clearly visible ZDK-03 at masroor aprn parked along with 2 c-130 in open parking while i was landing today at jinnah terminal lolz they will never learn

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## Zarvan

I am just checking Indian forum of defense that BR and man Indians are as always to jealous and try to lie about its capabilities


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## Dazzler



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## Stealth

Look and shape of this Aircraft seriously shit....


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## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


> Look and shape of this Aircraft seriously shit....


 ap ne uska mujra dekhna hai ya us se early warning leni hai janab /??

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## Stealth

Imran Khan said:


> ap ne uska mujra dekhna hai ya us se early warning leni hai janab /??



ye baat hoti tu Amercan Weapons mujra shape ki tarhan kay hotay


----------



## SQ8

Stealth said:


> ye baat hoti tu Amercan Weapons mujra shape ki tarhan kay hotay



The Americans consider many of their own weapons ugly. Its just our own ideals that have us taking even American poop looking like a piece of dairy milk to us. "Kya khoobsoorat tatti ki hai".

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## MastanKhan

Stealth said:


> Look and shape of this Aircraft seriously shit....




Hi,

As long as it does the job it is needed for----. Beauty is only skin deep. After going thru auto engineering school here in u s and wondering why don' t the americans make cars like the japanese---I realized that is what they want to make----they are not japanese..

American heavu equipment----ugly though it maybe----but none comes closer to it in doing the job.


----------



## krash

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> As long as it does the job it is needed for----. Beauty is only skin deep. After going thru auto engineering school here in u s and wondering why don' t the americans make cars like the japanese---I realized that is what they want to make----they are not japanese..
> 
> American heavu equipment----ugly though it maybe----but none comes closer to it in doing the job.



Is this inclusive of cars? Because today the Americans make the crappiest cars in the world. 

Military equipment, of course, there is no debate there.


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## Thorough Pro

Do you want the base commander to park them at his home? Stop this nonsense, nonsense!



Imran Khan said:


> clearly visible ZDK-03 at masroor aprn parked along with 2 c-130 in open parking while i was landing today at jinnah terminal lolz they will never learn


----------



## Rashid Mahmood



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## sur

Imran Khan said:


> A jao bhai *مست ماحول تے مٹھے چاول* . taliban ki dawat ka bandobast dekho . PAF ne AWACS ko dhoop main khara kiya hai to PN ne sara fleet usi jaga open la khara kiya hai mehran base per  the day when mehran attacked 3 P3C were on this tarmac recent image show 4




Those who are capable of taking such satellite pictures in real-time must have role in providing surveillance\directions to those attackers. *At the least. *Their fellows Amreekis were present on the airbase too. Making it even more probable that they were sending back real-time info.

But whom did our air-force take it out on???  Then they claim they will win over terrorists. How? By hitting all the wrong targets? By *pruning the twigs BUT leaving the roots* intact???



nomi007 said:


> qasam se yeh dekh k damag kharab ho raha hai
> kindly ispr ko inform karo


ISPR filmain, dramay, naghmaay, bananay saay toe farigh hoo laay... Show toe marnay doe unhain.



Munir said:


> We might have excuses but we clearly fail to defend valuable assets. We clearly have no guts to punish the ones that failed. We clearly lack vision. And we are the ones that created and accepted these terrorists. Who can we blame? No one.





DV RULES said:


> Issue is not over number of air crafts present on base but security where they should give maximum attention.



I wonder four of you are not banned from this thread yet.
When I write anything like this I get an immediate ban from thread(s) by one particular MOD.
Howcome you guys are exempt.







Chak Bamu said:


> ... Using Burqa to run away. *Using iftaar & Suhr time for attack etc*.......



Is our military\ISI not trained enough to know of these tactics. Are they sooo gullible-incompetent???

*I learned as a child* that militaries attack in early morning. How come our trained soldiers missed that.

Quran mentioned *"Shock-&-Awe" 1430+ years ago*... And an islamic military got tricked by same early morning surprise attack???

*Q:100:1-5:* By the (Steeds) that run, with panting (breath), (1) And strike sparks of fire, (2) And push home the *charge in the morning*, (3) And raise the dust in clouds the while, (4) And penetrate forthwith into the midst (of the foe) en masse― ...

This is *"Shock-And-Awe" strategy*...

*سورة العَادیَات*​ان سرپٹ دوڑنے والے گھوڑوں کی قسم جو ہانپتے ہوئے دوڑتے ہیں (۱) پھر (پتھروں پر نعل) مار کر آگ نکالتے ہیں (۲) پھر صبح کو چھاپہ مارتے ہیں (۳) پھر اس میں گرد اُڑاتے ہیں (۴) پھر اس وقت دشمن کی فوج میں جا گھستے ہیں (۵)


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## MastanKhan

krash said:


> Is this inclusive of cars? Because today the Americans make the crappiest cars in the world.
> 
> Military equipment, of course, there is no debate there.



Hi,

They ain't that bad---and they sell a lots of them as well.


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## Darth Vader

Imran Khan said:


> your lovely bases and bases commanders already fucked very badly twice and i am sure they will again have stick in *** very soon . mark my words


Man i dont know whats your problem in every thread you start opening your mouth its A defence Forum if u wana discuss some thing discuss it else No need to insult others
And these weapons are acquired to be used on daily basis not 2 stored them in some bunker


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## gambit

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> As long as it does the job it is needed for----. Beauty is only skin deep. After going thru auto engineering school here in u s and wondering why don' t the americans make cars like the japanese---I realized that is what they want to make----they are not japanese..


I guess you never lived thru the times when Japanese cars had a terrible reputation for reliability and performance in the US. Especially reliability. Of course, this was prehistoric, meaning before the Internet. Every manufacturer goes thru a time of arrogance and complacency. The Japanese and the Europeans are no different. Today, American cars are just as reliable as the Japanese or just marginally behind. Toyota have the four cylinders 22RE engine, Jeep have the inline 4 liters six. Both are legendary for their longevity and I have both in my garage: A 1989 Toyota pick up truck and a 1993 Jeep Cherokee. Each have over 250k miles on them and none required engine or transmission rebuilds. Both are 4 wheel drives off road capable and both have been on trails.

Today, the Toyota Tundra, a full size truck, have scant non-US sales. The truck was styled, designed, and manufactured in the US. Essentially, despite the Japanese name, the Tundra is just as American as anything from Ford or Chevrolet or Chrysler.

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## razgriz19

gambit said:


> I guess you never lived thru the times when Japanese cars had a terrible reputation for reliability and performance in the US. Especially reliability. Of course, this was prehistoric, meaning before the Internet. Every manufacturer goes thru a time of arrogance and complacency. The Japanese and the Europeans are no different. Today, American cars are just as reliable as the Japanese or just marginally behind. Toyota have the four cylinders 22RE engine, Jeep have the inline 4 liters six. Both are legendary for their longevity and I have both in my garage: A 1989 Toyota pick up truck and a 1993 Jeep Cherokee. Each have over 250k miles on them and none required engine or transmission rebuilds. Both are 4 wheel drives off road capable and both have been on trails.
> 
> Today, the Toyota Tundra, a full size truck, have scant non-US sales. The truck was styled, designed, and manufactured in the US. Essentially, despite the Japanese name, the Tundra is just as American as anything from Ford or Chevrolet or Chrysler.


 
The problem with American cars today is that they're designed to last for 5 years without any major problems. Once you cross that mark, the car starts to show its weaknesses. Funny thing is the warranty also lasts 5 years.


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## gambit

razgriz19 said:


> The problem with American cars today is that they're designed to last for 5 years without any major problems. Once you cross that mark, the car starts to show its weaknesses. Funny thing is the warranty also lasts 5 years.


The real problem is a false understanding of a warranty. What constitute a 'major' problem? Engine and drivetrain only? Electronics? Then which electronics? If the car is equipped with a navigation system, as so many are today, why should the navigation system be qualified as a 'major' item when the system does not affect driveability and minorly affect drive quality?

Design is one thing. Warranty is another. A warranty means the manufacturer will pay for repairs or replace of the part within a specific timeframe that the manufacturer guesstimate that the buyer will treat the vehicle in a certain way. But there is no way to know how a buyer is going to drive and treat any vehicle and vehicle type. For my Jeeps, I bought them used. Am a cheapskate. But if I buy a Grand Cherokee new, the moment I put a mild 2 in lift kit on it for better off road capability, the entire warranty is void. From engine/drivetrain to the base stereo. Even the roof rack would be negatively affected. BMW's and Mercedes' basic warranties are 4 yrs or 50k miles and those are considered 'upper class' brand over American brands. So their warranties are no better than American ones, implying that American vehicles are just as good in designs.


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## razgriz19

gambit said:


> The real problem is a false understanding of a warranty. What constitute a 'major' problem? Engine and drivetrain only? Electronics? Then which electronics? If the car is equipped with a navigation system, as so many are today, why should the navigation system be qualified as a 'major' item when the system does not affect driveability and minorly affect drive quality?
> 
> Design is one thing. Warranty is another. A warranty means the manufacturer will pay for repairs or replace of the part within a specific timeframe that the manufacturer guesstimate that the buyer will treat the vehicle in a certain way. But there is no way to know how a buyer is going to drive and treat any vehicle and vehicle type. For my Jeeps, I bought them used. Am a cheapskate. But if I buy a Grand Cherokee new, the moment I put a mild 2 in lift kit on it for better off road capability, the entire warranty is void. From engine/drivetrain to the base stereo. Even the roof rack would be negatively affected. BMW's and Mercedes' basic warranties are 4 yrs or 50k miles and those are considered 'upper class' brand over American brands. So their warranties are no better than American ones, implying that American vehicles are just as good in designs.


 
power steering for example. A friend of minebought Ford Escape in 2008, his power steering failed this month.
Power steering is a major issue. And i know he maintains his car very well, he service everything on time.

And I meant they are designed to not have any major issues, such as power steering failure untill 5 years at least. And this is why they also give 5 year warranty.

And you're right, it largely depends on how the driver maintains his vehicle. I know a guy who literally destroyed his Jeep Wrangler by not servicing it on time.


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## Donatello

Have you guys lost it?

What has American cars got to do with Pakistan's AWACs thread?

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## Dazzler

stick to the topic folks


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## Rashid Mahmood



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## Stealth

Why Pakistan Airforce following Chinese Style "under development" Aircrafts testing color scheme @ the bottom of their Aircraft ??? (Waving style texture) mostly used by Chinese.


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## Dazzler



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## Superboy

Makes sense that ZDK-03 has more range than Erieye. The carrier Y-8 plane is a lot bigger than the carrier plane of Erieye. 4 turboprops versus only 2.

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## Mughal-Prince

Oscar said:


> The Americans consider many of their own weapons ugly. Its just our own ideals that have us taking even American poop looking like a piece of dairy milk to us. "Kya khoobsoorat tatti ki hai".


LMAO !!! Aray bhayee wah Mehfil loot li aap nay aur Imran bhai nay mil kay wah


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## nomi007

over Karachi

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## Superboy

ZDK-03 looks awesome. Need 8 of these


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## AUz

nomi007 said:


> over Karachi
> View attachment 16177



Does ZDK-03 perform maritime role too? Similar to that of P-C3 orion etc?


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## Superboy

AUz said:


> Does ZDK-03 perform maritime role too? Similar to that of P-C3 orion etc?


 

No it is AWAC only. Other Y-8 derivatives like Y-8FQ do maritime patrol.

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## Nishan_101

Superboy said:


> No it is AWAC only. Other Y-8 derivatives like Y-8FQ do maritime patrol.



Better for PN to have taken about 10 P-3C MPAs and 3 P-3C AEW&Cs from US, as PN loves US equipment a lot and replace all the other.


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> over Karachi
> View attachment 16177


 





*ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle*



*ZDK-03* (Y-8CS?) is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (S/N T0518/Y-8CE) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006.

Unlike *KJ-200*, this variant carries a traditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. The PESA radar is thought to scan electronically in elevation but mechanically in azimuth.

Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than *KJ-200* which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose and tail with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as small vertical stabilizers attached to its tailplanes. Another two MAWS sensors are attached to the tailcone as well. Additional fairings are seen at the wingtips and the tail housing ESM antennas.

The Y-8 AWACS prototype flew to Pakistan and was evaluated by Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now named *ZDK-03* (_ZDK_ means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade high efficiency propellers.

It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m contract. The first *ZDK-03* prototype rolled out in November 2010 at SAC.

Since then it has been undergoing test at CFTE (S/N 733). *ZDK-03* is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the *JF-17* fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16.

Therefore *ZDK-03* operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The first *ZDK-03* (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 11-002) was delivered some time later. The delivery of third *ZDK-03* (12-003) was delivered in 2013.

_- Last Updated 2/8/14_

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## nomi007

Y-9_cockpit




ZDK-03_cockpit




hope in future paf will also purchase Y-9 transport aircrafts

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## Riz

According to my friend 3 chines awacs has been delivered so for to PAkistan. 3 swedish awacs were damaged in kamra attack in which one was completely destroyed one is still under mentinance remaining one is ready to fly........


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## Jango

riz1978 said:


> 3 swedish awacs were damaged in kamra attack in which one was completely destroyed one is still under mentinance remaining one is ready to fly........

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## notorious_eagle

riz1978 said:


> 3 swedish awacs were damaged in kamra attack in which one was completely destroyed one is still under mentinance remaining one is ready to fly........



Actually your friend is wrong. All of the Erieyes were completely destroyed. They were sent to the junkyard and have been sold for scrap at Lunda Bazar infront of Railway Station.

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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16.



In progress locally. And the link will be slightly advanced than Link-16.

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## Rain

Oscar said:


> In progress locally. And the link will be slightly advanced than Link-16.


excellent development. I heard, initially, it was linked through ground base home made data link system.
If they have develop an airbourn datalink system to link it with western air assets.. it's a great news


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## Arsalan

Oscar said:


> In progress locally. And the link will be slightly advanced than Link-16.



any timeline available? when it will be equipping our planes. What do you think about which ones will be the first to get his new communication and data link setup?


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## SQ8

Arsalan said:


> any timeline available? when it will be equipping our planes. What do you think about which ones will be the first to get his new communication and data link setup?



Its started out a few years ago.. will take a while. First test should be likely between ZDK-03 and ground stations, then perhaps data linking between JF-17/Mirage and ZDK.. then to ZDK and Erieye.. and then perhaps at last to F-16 and ZDK.

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## Riz

@notorious_eagal Na kar yaar man lay bhai kabhi to man jaya karo ? Yaad nhi ma na hi kaha tha oyr first armed version will bhi shahpur not uqab ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

riz1978 said:


> @notorious_eagal Na kar yaar man lay bhai kabhi to man jaya karo ? Yaad nhi ma na hi kaha tha oyr first armed version will bhi shahpur not uqab ?



Guess what you are wrong on both accounts .. I met the officer who was awarded for protecting n combating terrorist - kamra..

2)Burraq is a UCAV not Shahpar .. Both have different specs and even different designs..


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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> Y-9_cockpit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ZDK-03_cockpit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hope in future paf will also purchase Y-9 transport aircrafts



o bhai, look closely, they have the same cockpit layout, zdk has four outer displays turned off and photo is shady, 

Also, Y-8F600 IS actually the Y-9 series


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> As long as it does the job it is needed for----. Beauty is only skin deep. After going thru auto engineering school here in u s and wondering why don' t the americans make cars like the japanese---I realized that is what they want to make----they are not japanese..
> 
> American heavu equipment----ugly though it maybe----but none comes closer to it in doing the job.


off topic but still i want to ask something : just for e.g. can i ship you a turbocharger or any other auto part to usa from Pakistan ? does the us authorities allow such a shipment into america from abroad especialy from PakisTan ?


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## MastanKhan

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> off topic but still i want to ask something : just for e.g. can i ship you a turbocharger or any other auto part to usa from Pakistan ? does the us authorities allow such a shipment into america from abroad especialy from PakisTan ?


 
Hi,

As long as it is not a presuuure ckkkkkka---you should be able to ship something like that.


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## Riz

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Guess what you are wrong on both accounts .. I met the officer who was awarded for protecting n combating terrorist - kamra..
> 
> 2)Burraq is a UCAV not Shahpar .. Both have different specs and even different designs..


 what do you mean ? an officer who failed to protect the high value assets gave you enough information about the damaged crafts ? i will ask you when one of a damaged awacks ready to fly in between 4 to 6 months , works is under way by sweedish engineers here in pakistan
i did not fell into categories here i simply told you guys that there is an arm version called shahpure and will be flight tested before burraq version


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## DESERT FIGHTER

riz1978 said:


> what do you mean ? an officer who failed to protect the high value assets gave you enough information about the damaged crafts ? i will ask you when one of a damaged awacks ready to fly in between 4 to 6 months , works is under way by sweedish engineers here in pakistan




Sure .. Sure .. He was the first officer to reach and the spot n engage the terrorists.. 1 AWACS was screwed... 
Not 3..



> i did not fell into categories here i simply told you guys that there is an arm version called shahpure and will be flight tested before burraq version



Lol Shahpar was shown at IDEAS expo much before .. Burraq.. 

Has double the endurance etc when compared to Shahpar .. Even a different design..


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## Riz

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sure .. Sure .. He was the first officer to reach and the spot n engage the terrorists.. 1 AWACS was screwed...
> Not 3..
> Ectualy i was responding the following post of notorious_eagal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lol Shahpar was shown at IDEAS expo much before .. Burraq..
> 
> Has double the endurance etc when compared to Shahpar .. Even a different design..
Click to expand...


LoL i have know that long before your IDEAS expo


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## DESERT FIGHTER

riz1978 said:


> LoL i have know that long before your IDEAS expo



cool.. now thank me for educating you?


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## nomi007

can any 1 post specs of zdk-13 and saab 2000 in this style


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## nomi007



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## nomi007

Inside_breguet_atlantic

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> Inside_breguet_atlantic


 all of them out of service now

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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> all of them out of service now


qoumi virsa


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> qoumi virsa


 we already holding 90% of world qaumi virsa  every EX-junk transferred to pakistan

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> all of them out of service now


 
yar one is still operational.

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> yar one is still operational.


*Good Bye Atlantic*

Wed Sep 05, 2012

*September 5 -* Today, Pakistan Navy at a ceremony held at PNS Mehran Naval Air Station, Karachi, phased out veteran Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic reconnaissance/patrol/anti-submarine/anti-ship aircraft. Atlantic aircraft serial number '94' was present at this ceremony.

The twin-engine turboprop aircraft type served Pakistan Navy for 36 years from 1976 to 2012 and flew a total of 7,700 missions accumulating more than 28,000 flight hours.

Quoted below is information on Pakistan Navy website (*www.paknavy.gov.pk*) about 29 Anti-Submarine Warfare Squadron (ASW) that was raised with the induction of Atlantic aircraft in 1976






.Pakistan Navy Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic (serial number 94 / construction number 63) that was seen at aircraft type's retirement ceremony held at PNS Mehran Naval Air Station, Karachi, on September 5, 2012, has been preserved at Paksitan Air Force (PAF) Museum in Karachi.

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## nomi007

may be not posted before

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## Dazzler

it hovers on me head daily, its so quiet and fast, never lets me take a snap, damn !


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## PhoneyMember

Aren't PAF Erieye the cut down version without ELINT SIGINT?ZDK got all that.


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## Dazzler

PhoneyMember said:


> Aren't PAF Erieye the cut down version without ELINT SIGINT?ZDK got all that.




Erieye and ZDK both have both

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## Imran Khan

Dazzler said:


> it hovers on me head daily, its so quiet and fast, never lets me take a snap, damn !


 ap bhi nokia3310 se foto na baanay ab

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## PhoneyMember

Dazzler said:


> Erieye and ZDK both have both


PAF has those French planes dedicated for ELINT/SIGINT since 1980s.Are they still in use?


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## Imran Khan

PhoneyMember said:


> PAF has those French planes dedicated for ELINT/SIGINT since 1980s.Are they still in use?


yes they are active and we got 2 more king air 350 from USA 

these babies

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## PhoneyMember

But Pakistani King air don't have that under belly appendage.


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## Imran Khan

PhoneyMember said:


> But Pakistani King air don't have that under belly appendage.


 these pics are those two pakistani units sir . delivery pics of PAF birds which you seen

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## Dazzler

PhoneyMember said:


> PAF has those French planes dedicated for ELINT/SIGINT since 1980s.Are they still in use?




If you are referring to Falcon D20s, yes they are still in service, upgraded a while ago


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## Basel

Imran Khan said:


> yes they are active and we got 2 more king air 350 from USA



Where PAF stands in terms of SIGINT/ELINT with those king air 350 & upgraded Falcom D20s, as on some channel IAF said they have no worries about them because they have more advance systems available to them.

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## Donatello

Imran Khan said:


> these pics are those two pakistani units sir . delivery pics of PAF birds which you seen




Paajee,

When did this happen?

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## Imran Khan

Donatello said:


> Paajee,
> 
> When did this happen?


in 2010 ustaad jeee

PAF acquiring two King Air 350 ISR aircrafts

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## Bilal.

Didn't we acquire additional Dasault Falcon 20 too?


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## Imran Khan

Bilal. said:


> Didn't we acquire additional Dasault Falcon 20 too?


nope in fact we are getting ready to replacement of them as they are too old


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## Imran Khan

here is best link of these air crafts

aircraft R-NUMBER N551TP USA FAA website show that this registration canceled from USA and its transfred to pakistan

Serial NumberFL-303 Certificate Issue Date12/10/2009
Manufacturer NameRAYTHEON AIRCRAFT COMPANY Mode S Code (base 8 / oct)51602331
ModelB300 Mode S Code (base 16 / hex)A704D9
Year Manufacturer2000Cancel Date04/26/2011
*Reason for Cancellation Exported Export To PAKISTAN *
Type RegistrationGovernment

FAA Registry - Aircraft - N-Number Inquiry









same for aircraft number N350RD registration number

Serial NumberFL-365 Certificate Issue Date01/26/2010
Manufacturer NameRAYTHEON AIRCRAFT COMPANY Mode S Code (base 8 / oct)50763110
ModelB300 Mode S Code (base 16 / hex)A3E648
Year Manufacturer2003Cancel Date04/26/2011
*Reason for Cancellation Exported Export To PAKISTAN *
Type RegistrationGovernment

FAA Registry - Aircraft - N-Number Inquiry

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## Bilal.

Imran Khan said:


> nope in fact we are getting ready to replacement of them as they are too old



Strange, I thought we acquired 1 additional during past decade and now we operate 3 of them. Any idea what are the candidate system being considered for there replacement?


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## haroonn

Bilal. said:


> Strange, I thought we acquired 1 additional during past decade and now we operate 3 of them. Any idea what are the candidate system being considered for there replacement?


 
This is correct. As far as I know, PAF acquired a third one in 2008. The first two aircraft are called "Iqbal" and "Lodhi" and this third one was called "Mir". This was probably the one previously used as VIP transport in 70s and 80s.

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## hassan1

king air 350 at PAF BASE CHAKLALA

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## SafrizTheGreat

hassan1 said:


> king air 350 at PAF BASE CHAKLALA



The good thing is these birds do passive surveillance and dont have to transmit anything.
Based on the data collected by these birds..wont it be possible for Pakistan to make a system similar to VERA-E?

That was mainly a software based system,and hardware want that complicated.
Software compared signal patterns to existing records and identified the target by this process.


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## SafrizTheGreat

aNOTHER THING IS pAKISTAN NAVY'S HAWKER 850XP.
tHEY WERE BOUGHT VIRGIN AND THEN HAD TO BE FITTED WITH ELECTRONIC WARFARE IN DALLAS..

NO EVIDENCE OF THAT HAPPENING.


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## krash

SafrizTheGreat said:


> aNOTHER THING IS pAKISTAN NAVY'S HAWKER 850XP.
> tHEY WERE BOUGHT VIRGIN AND THEN HAD TO BE FITTED WITH ELECTRONIC WARFARE IN DALLAS..
> 
> NO EVIDENCE OF THAT HAPPENING.



Found this PTV report on it. It just barely mentions it.






and this,



fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan Navy's First Special Mission Hawker 850XP Delivered*
> 
> Hawker Beechcraft Hawker 850XP - N982XP (c/n 258982) seen at the ramp at Glasgow-Prestwick International Airport, on August 14, making a brief stop on its delivery flight to the Pakistan Navy, which has ordered four of the type. The aircraft had left Wichita, Kansas, on August 5 for Addison, Texas, but then did not leave there until August 13, when it flew to Gander, Newfoundland. The next day it continued to Prestwick before flying on to Istanbul, Turkey then onward to Pakistan for an official hand-over ceremony. It will then return to Texas for complete outfitting as a VIP transport. the remaining three will be configured for special mission-aircraft, although the precise nature of the special mission equipment is unknow.
> 
> AFM



Hawker 850XP | Page 2

Also they were used birds.


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## khanasifm

I read somewhere that now there are total of 4 MC-12, 2 additional aircraft transferred to PAK

MC-12 > U.S. Air Force > Fact Sheet Display


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> these pics are those two pakistani units sir . delivery pics of PAF birds which you seen


 
ISR aircraft.



Imran Khan said:


> *Good Bye Atlantic*
> 
> Wed Sep 05, 2012
> 
> *September 5 -* Today, Pakistan Navy at a ceremony held at PNS Mehran Naval Air Station, Karachi, phased out veteran Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic reconnaissance/patrol/anti-submarine/anti-ship aircraft. Atlantic aircraft serial number '94' was present at this ceremony.
> 
> The twin-engine turboprop aircraft type served Pakistan Navy for 36 years from 1976 to 2012 and flew a total of 7,700 missions accumulating more than 28,000 flight hours.
> 
> Quoted below is information on Pakistan Navy website (*www.paknavy.gov.pk*) about 29 Anti-Submarine Warfare Squadron (ASW) that was raised with the induction of Atlantic aircraft in 1976
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .Pakistan Navy Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic (serial number 94 / construction number 63) that was seen at aircraft type's retirement ceremony held at PNS Mehran Naval Air Station, Karachi, on September 5, 2012, has been preserved at Paksitan Air Force (PAF) Museum in Karachi.


 
bhai maan jao - 1 example atlantic still operational out of pns mehran.

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> ISR aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> bhai maan jao - 1 example atlantic still operational out of pns mehran.


 *اب کیا ہم آپکی بات کا انکار کرنے کی گستاخی کر سکتے ہین سر ؟*


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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> ISR aircraft.



ISR kia matlab hai ?


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## TOPGUN

Ulla said:


> ISR kia matlab hai ?



Intelligence-Surveillance-Reconnaissance

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## Imran Khan

Ulla said:


> ISR kia matlab hai ?


Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (_ISR_) _aircraft_

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## nomi007

chinese kj-500
i think paf got also 1 this awacs instead of zdk-03


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## nomi007

over karachi beach

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> over karachi beach




these syaaany PAF waly should move them away from cities now after getting many slaps on faces they still acting same smart as before

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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> these syaaany PAF waly should move them away from cities now after getting many slaps on faces they still acting same smart as before


sir still paf and pn using old methods to prevent their bases
i am unable to understand why they are not using heat seeking imaginary devices

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> sir still paf and pn using old methods to prevent their bases
> i am unable to understand why they are not using heat seeking imaginary devices


there is one more modern system made in pakistan dear 
its underground system if you walk over it computer radar will show location and details when someone step over it . i liked it but don't know why they don't use them

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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> there is one more modern system made in pakistan dear
> its underground system if you walk over it computer radar will show location and details when someone step over it . i liked it but don't know why they don't use them


imran bhai they need to learn from Israel

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> imran bhai they need to learn from Israel





nomi007 said:


> imran bhai they need to learn from Israel


 not only they bro all our system our thoughts our plans our views based on classic old minds we need to move in future with world .
*دوسرے لفظوں مین نومی بھائی بات یہ ہے کہ *
*ھمارے بے شمار مسائل اس لیے بھی جنم لے رھے ھیں کہ ھم انفرادی، اجتماعی بلکہ ملکی سطح پر ایک ایسے فکری جمود کا شکار ھیں جس کے حصار سے باہر نکلنا اپنے لیے موت سمجھتے ھیں ۔۔ ھمارے ملک کے بے شمار قوانین میں ترامیم کی ضرورت ھے۔۔۔ وقت کے بدلنے کے ساتھ ساتھ جدید دور کے تقاضوں کو بھی مدنظر رکھنا پڑتا ھے۔۔۔ لیکن افسوس کہ ھماری سوئی جہاں اٹکی ھوئی ھے ھم اسی جکہ ہی رہنا چاہ رہے ھیں۔۔۔ اور یہی وجہ ھے کہ آج دُنیا آگے کا سفر طے کر رہی ھے اور ھم نے پیچھے کی طرف دوڑ لگا رکھی ھے پر ہر وہ فکر مند پاکستانی جو ان کی نشاندہی کرے ملحد منافق کافر اور بے دین واجب القتل ہے جیسے کہ مین ۔*...

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## Imran Khan



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## nomi007

zdk-03 radar under construction

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## Basel

I think few days ago I have seen AWACS based on P-3 Orion flying from base Faisal / Mehran, how many we have and what is the difference between all 03 platform Pakistan have?

Definitely it was not the plane who's pic is posted in post #3895.


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## araz

Imran Khan said:


> not only they bro all our system our thoughts our plans our views based on classic old minds we need to move in future with world .
> *دوسرے لفظوں مین نومی بھائی بات یہ ہے کہ *
> *ھمارے بے شمار مسائل اس لیے بھی جنم لے رھے ھیں کہ ھم انفرادی، اجتماعی بلکہ ملکی سطح پر ایک ایسے فکری جمود کا شکار ھیں جس کے حصار سے باہر نکلنا اپنے لیے موت سمجھتے ھیں ۔۔ ھمارے ملک کے بے شمار قوانین میں ترامیم کی ضرورت ھے۔۔۔ وقت کے بدلنے کے ساتھ ساتھ جدید دور کے تقاضوں کو بھی مدنظر رکھنا پڑتا ھے۔۔۔ لیکن افسوس کہ ھماری سوئی جہاں اٹکی ھوئی ھے ھم اسی جکہ ہی رہنا چاہ رہے ھیں۔۔۔ اور یہی وجہ ھے کہ آج دُنیا آگے کا سفر طے کر رہی ھے اور ھم نے پیچھے کی طرف دوڑ لگا رکھی ھے پر ہر وہ فکر مند پاکستانی جو ان کی نشاندہی کرے ملحد منافق کافر اور بے دین واجب القتل ہے جیسے کہ مین ۔*...


Bhai in your case it is the black label or johny walker that is the problem . As far as Pakistan is concerned it is a gone case and to wake it up will need lots of bloodshed which no one is prepared for.
Araz


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## Imran Khan

araz said:


> Bhai in your case it is the black label or johny walker that is the problem . As far as Pakistan is concerned it is a gone case and to wake it up will need lots of bloodshed which no one is prepared for.
> Araz


 bhai jaan main aysa nhi hoon kabhi kabhaar ho jata hai party waarty warna ab aysa bhi nhi . my views are real issue not my character



Basel said:


> I think few days ago I have seen AWACS based on P-3 Orion flying from base Faisal / Mehran, how many we have and what is the difference between all 03 platform Pakistan have?
> 
> Definitely it was not the plane who's pic is posted in post #3895.


 we don't have howkey based on P3-C you seen ZDK-03 sir . if ou seen this baby its then USN or USAF not paf

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## Basel

Imran Khan said:


> we don't have howkey based on P3-C you seen ZDK-03 sir . if ou seen this baby its then USN or USAF not paf



No, it was not this plane as it was flying low due to take off, it was similar to below pic but it did not had long extension in tail.



Imran Khan said:


> we don't have howkey based on P3-C you seen ZDK-03 sir . if ou seen this baby its then USN or USAF not paf



No, it was not this plane as it was flying low due to take off, it was similar to below pic but it did not had long extension in tail.


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## Imran Khan

Basel said:


> No, it was not this plane as it was flying low due to take off, it was similar to below pic but it did not had long extension in tail.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it was not this plane as it was flying low due to take off, it was similar to below pic but it did not had long extension in tail.
> 
> View attachment 24275


then sure USN P-3AEW&C


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## Basel

Imran Khan said:


> then sure USN P-3AEW&C



May be u r right as I was unable to see the markings but it look sleek and beautiful, but did USN use them? and if yes why there was one in Pakistan, although aircraft activity has increased and it shows that PN have received some planes for different roles and they are flying them frequently.


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## Imran Khan

Basel said:


> May be u r right as I was unable to see the markings but it look sleek and beautiful, but did USN use them? and if yes why there was one in Pakistan, although aircraft activity has increased and it shows that PN have received some planes for different roles and they are flying them frequently.


 no we don't have any sir they were eather ZDK-03 or USN P-3AEW&C other all operators like egypt singapore japan israel mexico taiwan france have no chance to fl birds throw pakistan .

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## ziaulislam

nomi007 said:


> sir still paf and pn using old methods to prevent their bases
> i am unable to understand why they are not using heat seeking imaginary devices


mmost of the bases only have a week fence, nothing else, no cameras , no sort of any other protection. thats the reason why we lost half a billion dollars or more in prooperty in base attacks as PN seem to be too lazy to invest a few million in increasing it bases secuirty


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## Luftwaffe

ziaulislam said:


> mmost of the bases only have a week fence, nothing else, no cameras , no sort of any other protection. thats the reason why we lost half a billion dollars or more in prooperty in base attacks as PN seem to be too lazy to invest a few million in increasing it bases secuirty



No long term vision, poor planning, lazy bums, corrupts and a long list...they should have done that after 9/11 when getting into other's war, it don't take a $100m to invest it should take much less for airbases and other areas to secure.


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## Thorough Pro

And what could that be.............let me guess, FLIR or in other world Thermal imaging devices?

btw devices don't prevent (read protect) bases, its the people who do that, devices are just different types of tools 



nomi007 said:


> sir still paf and pn using old methods to prevent their bases
> i am unable to understand why they are not using *heat seeking imaginary devices*



move them to where? kia kisi pind mein khu kinaray kharay kar dein?



Imran Khan said:


> these syaaany PAF waly should move them away from cities now after getting many slaps on faces they still acting same smart as before



Would you listen to Veena Malik's views on "Haya and Parda' in islam?





Imran Khan said:


> bhai jaan main aysa nhi hoon kabhi kabhaar ho jata hai party waarty warna ab aysa bhi nhi . *my views are real issue not my character *


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## Quwa

Not sure if the US Navy operates P-3 AEW, the US Customs Agency does though...and I'm not sure why they'd be in Pak.


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## fatman17

sorry but it must be a figment of someone's imagination.


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> sorry but it must be a figment of someone's imagination.


 i think so sir but he was so sure abut it . i think he seen ZDK-03

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## Rashid Mahmood

Basel said:


> I think few days ago I have seen AWACS based on P-3 Orion flying from base Faisal / Mehran, how many we have and what is the difference between all 03 platform Pakistan have?
> 
> Definitely it was not the plane who's pic is posted in post #3895.



The aircraft flying from Faisal Base is a PAF ZDK.
I see it all the time as my office is near by...


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## Zarvan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> The aircraft flying from Faisal Base is a PAF ZDK.
> I see it all the time as my office is near by...


we lost one in terrorist attack I mean SAAB would we get it replaced and those ordered from China have all of them arrived ?


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## Rashid Mahmood

Zarvan said:


> we lost one in terrorist attack I mean SAAB would we get it replaced and those ordered from China have all of them arrived ?



Bro, that is classified info.
I can't say.
If it is released in the media, then we all will know.


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## fatman17

3 ZDK-03 have been delivered. 4th still in China. aircraft no 3 and 4 have upgraded radars.

for Saab, maintenance and recovery agreement has been signed.


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> 3 ZDK-03 have been delivered. 4th still in China. aircraft no 3 and 4 have upgraded radars.
> 
> for Saab, maintenance and recovery agreement has been signed.


 200mn$ damnnnnnnn


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## nomi007

Zarvan said:


> we lost one in terrorist attack I mean SAAB would we get it replaced and those ordered from China have all of them arrived ?


saab is totally different awacs than zdk-03
lost of saab is a great loss
.which can't be fulfill with Chinese radars



Thorough Pro said:


> And what could that be.............let me guess, FLIR or in other world Thermal imaging devices?
> 
> btw devices don't prevent (read protect) bases, its the people who do that, devices are just different types of tools
> 
> 
> 
> move them to where? kia kisi pind mein khu kinaray kharay kar dein?
> 
> 
> 
> Would you listen to Veena Malik's views on "Haya and Parda' in islam?


bhai yeh kia chawal pari ap ne


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> 3 ZDK-03 have been delivered. 4th still in China. aircraft no 3 and 4 have upgraded radars.
> 
> for Saab, maintenance and recovery agreement has been signed.


That is good news @Rashid Mahmood @nomi007

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## nomi007

Zarvan said:


> That is good news @Rashid Mahmood @nomi007


SIR armed forces spend 100 of millions $ on purchasing and maintenance but not spend 10 of millions on security 
they 1st need to establish buffer zones along with all air bases and install thermal images devices as well as 
Unmanned ground vehicles for security


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## Zarvan

nomi007 said:


> SIR armed forces spend 100 of millions $ on purchasing and maintenance but not spend 10 of millions on security
> they 1st need to establish buffer zones along with all air bases and install thermal images devices as well as
> Unmanned ground vehicles for security



I agree we also need to shift GHQ and ISI head quarters out of the city

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## nomi007

Zarvan said:


> I agree we also need to shift GHQ and ISI head quarters out of the city


bro in Musharraf period there was a plan of shifting GHQ to Islamabad near air and naval head quarter
but after him thanks to gen kayani the plan was abandoned 
in 2007 the actual cost was 1 billion $ (approx 70billions)
now hopefully cost is now doubled if in future such plans was again started


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## Rashid Mahmood

Zarvan said:


> I agree we also need to shift GHQ and ISI head quarters out of the city



So you mean to say that all our trained military & ISI are a bunch of idiots and your the genius who is worried about the security of GHQ and ISI HQ..

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## Zarvan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> So you mean to say that all our trained military & ISI are a bunch of idiots and your the genius who is worried about the security of GHQ and ISI HQ..


sir they want to do it too they lack funds that is only issue and after facing a attack if the don't think so than yes to your answer


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## nomi007

Zarvan said:


> I agree we also need to shift GHQ and ISI head quarters out of the city


bro in Musharraf period there was a plan of shifting GHQ to Islamabad near air and naval head quarter
but after him thanks to gen kayani the plan was abandoned
in 2007 the actual cost was 1 billion $ (approx 70billions)
now hopefully cost is now doubled if in future such plans was again started


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## Chak Bamu

nomi007 said:


> bro in Musharraf period there was a plan of shifting GHQ to Islamabad near air and naval head quarter
> but after him thanks to gen kayani the plan was abandoned
> in 2007 the actual cost was 1 billion $ (approx 70billions)
> now hopefully cost is now doubled if in future such plans was again started



In my view (and I am not an expert) that plan was not a good idea. The site was not bad, but the idea that most of the leadership of at least Air and Ground forces was to be situated so close together in Islamabad created apprehensions in my mind. 

One heavy strike could be devastating.


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## Luftwaffe

Chak Bamu said:


> In my view (and I am not an expert) that plan was not a good idea. The site was not bad, but the idea that most of the leadership of at least Air and Ground forces was to be situated so close together in Islamabad created apprehensions in my mind.
> 
> One heavy strike could be devastating.



The $1B included broad security plan as well just like protecting kahuta facilities, although it don't cost $1b somehow corruption is always a part of such plans.


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## Imran Khan

what is the status of new GHQ ? any info its long waiting project damn


*‘Construction of new GHQ underway’*
By Peer Muhammad
Published: April 5, 2011




Share this article 

Print this page  Email





Pakistan Army has begun construction on a new complex for its General Headquarters (GHQ) in Islamabad. PHOTO: FILE

*ISLAMABAD: 
The Pakistan Army has begun construction on a new complex for its General Headquarters (GHQ) in Islamabad, despite the army chief’s earlier comment that the army will delay construction due to the financial crunch.*

Responding to questions on Monday, senior Capital Development Authority (CDA) officials told the National Assembly Standing Committee on Environment that the construction had partially begun on the site that the army had acquired from the CDA.

Officials said that the CDA has allocated 726 acres of land in sectors E-10 and D-11 and 50 acres in these sectors’ catchment area. They said that the CDA has so far received Rs504 million from GHQ out of a total of Rs703.69 million, and the last payment came through a year ago.

Meanwhile, committee members expressed concern over environmental degradation in the area which had been allocated for the National Park and directed that illegal and unplanned construction be stopped immediately.

Committee chairperson MNA Raja Asad suggested that there should be legislation to check illegal and unplanned construction in Islamabad to protect the city’s beauty.

CDA Director-General Urban Planning Sarwar Sindhu agreed that there is a need to develop a regulatory mechanism. He said that illegal and informal construction was rampant in areas that fell under the administration of Islamabad Capital Territory.

_Published in The Express Tribune, April 5th, 2011._

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## Stealth

Imran Khan said:


> what is the status of new GHQ ? any info its long waiting project damn
> 
> 
> *‘Construction of new GHQ underway’*
> By Peer Muhammad
> Published: April 5, 2011
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Share this article
> 
> Print this page  Email
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Army has begun construction on a new complex for its General Headquarters (GHQ) in Islamabad. PHOTO: FILE
> 
> *ISLAMABAD:
> The Pakistan Army has begun construction on a new complex for its General Headquarters (GHQ) in Islamabad, despite the army chief’s earlier comment that the army will delay construction due to the financial crunch.*
> 
> Responding to questions on Monday, senior Capital Development Authority (CDA) officials told the National Assembly Standing Committee on Environment that the construction had partially begun on the site that the army had acquired from the CDA.
> 
> Officials said that the CDA has allocated 726 acres of land in sectors E-10 and D-11 and 50 acres in these sectors’ catchment area. They said that the CDA has so far received Rs504 million from GHQ out of a total of Rs703.69 million, and the last payment came through a year ago.
> 
> Meanwhile, committee members expressed concern over environmental degradation in the area which had been allocated for the National Park and directed that illegal and unplanned construction be stopped immediately.
> 
> Committee chairperson MNA Raja Asad suggested that there should be legislation to check illegal and unplanned construction in Islamabad to protect the city’s beauty.
> 
> CDA Director-General Urban Planning Sarwar Sindhu agreed that there is a need to develop a regulatory mechanism. He said that illegal and informal construction was rampant in areas that fell under the administration of Islamabad Capital Territory.
> 
> _Published in The Express Tribune, April 5th, 2011._





70s style pathetic architect.... better to design something like Pentagon with Star view from the top.... eek tu samaj nahe ati har jaga pe ye ghunbad style kyoo ghusa detay hain yahan kay pagal designer...

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## fatman17

project is put on hold / abandoned. i hope they dont construct that monsterosity.

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## Chak Bamu

fatman17 said:


> project is put on hold / abandoned. i hope they dont construct that monsterosity.



Love the architecture though.

Wait for another Martial law for something like this to be built, or quadrupling of Pakistan's economy - whatever happens first.


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## Quwa

A fancy GHQ to distract people from failures on the ground.


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## Stealth

Something like this from top


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## VelocuR

Dusty and more dusty after delievered to Pakistan and paid billion dollars, how come our newest AWACS or any planes get alot of dust?


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## air marshal



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## nomi007

*WE MISS U TOO MUCH*



*TERI YAAD AHE TERE JANE K BAAD*

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## Dazzler

its a long night for zdk-03 



RaptorRX707 said:


> Dusty and more dusty after delievered to Pakistan and paid billion dollars, how come our newest AWACS or any planes get alot of dust?



they are flown pretty mercilessly, see them almost daily, corrosion is a bad thing for airframe you know.


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## nomi007

may be zdk-03 or kj-500

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## Informant

Stealth said:


> Something like this from top



How original......NOT.


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## Stealth



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## nomi007

random247 said:


> Are we looking towards more Saab-2000 AEW&Cs???


not know
but paf will fullfil the gap


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## ziaulislam

nomi007 said:


> not know
> but paf will fullfil the gap



wasnt there a rumour that the training SAAB 2000 will be converted to AEWCs.
lastly, whats the final verdict, *one *lost *or two*, any idea?

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## nomi007

ziaulislam said:


> wasnt there a rumour that the training SAAB 2000 will be converted to AEWCs.
> lastly, whats the final verdict, *one *lost *or two*, any idea?


i believe only one

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## Indus Falcon

ziaulislam said:


> wasnt there a rumour that the training SAAB 2000 will be converted to AEWCs.
> lastly, whats the final verdict, *one *lost *or two*, any idea?


None lost, shaheed kabhi mart nahi!

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## Dazzler

zdk 03 patroling night skies..



nomi007 said:


> View attachment 27843
> may be zdk-03 or kj-500



kj-500

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## Dazzler

another shot....

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## nomi007

Dazzler said:


> another shot....


not sure be be u spreading fake video

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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> not sure be be u spreading fake video



excuse me? my camera has a flash, not a search light u know.


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## Indus Falcon

Dazzler said:


> excuse me? my camera has a flash, not a search light u know.


Thank you for the effort, but unfortunately due to the low light, it's not possible to see what aircraft it is.

@Aeronaut Would appreciate if you could reverse Nomi007's infraction. It's a bit too harsh and he does have a point, it's impossible to make out whether it's an aircraft or an albatross with lights on!

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## MilSpec

Dazzler said:


> excuse me? my camera has a flash, not a search light u know.


now that was funny!

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## Dazzler

sandy_3126 said:


> now that was funny!



i live near the base it flies from, see it often, unfortunately, its patroling late night only for many months. even at night, i clearly see the dish which is not visible in my video.

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## nomi007

zdk-03 squadron patch

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## nomi007

Karakorum over Karakorum

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## khail007

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 24272
> zdk-03 radar under construction



Sir jee, yeh larkian itni achi achi cheezain bana kar dayti hain apnay PAF aur PN walay larkoon ko. Yeh larkay apni cheezain sanbhal hi nahin patay. Tabah karwa detay hain terrorist k hatoon. Kitnay afsoos ki baat hai...!


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## nomi007

F-22P said:


> I think Chinese ones are better. Although PAF can try to sell the remaining 3 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs along with a transport Saab-2000 to UAE or Oman. And Get more Chinese AEW&Cs. Also gain some 5 P-3 AEW&Cs from US.


plz donot think 
Saab 2000 for f-16 not for Chinese jf-17s

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## Fahad Khan 2

nomi007 said:


> plz donot think
> Saab 2000 for f-16 not for Chinese jf-17s



Which one were destroyed in Mehran base attack p3 ornion or Saab 2000


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## Basel

what AWACS PN use?? do they have E-2 mounted on P-3s? although I have seen that combination over Karachi but can't confirm who operated them.


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## Bratva

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> Which one were destroyed in Mehran base attack p3 ornion or Saab 2000


 
Orion in Mehran 2 Damaged, 1 destroyed in Kamra attack.


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## Fahad Khan 2

Don't we need better AWACS for our F-16 because Erieye range is very small 450km it will become useless after MLU of our F-16?? We should sell them to UAE... In war F-16 will be our front line fighter and how will it work when it will not be in range??

@Aeronaut @Oscar



mafiya said:


> Orion in Mehran 2 Damaged, 1 destroyed in Kamra attack.



Are we working on replacement of damaged p3???


----------



## Bratva

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> Don't we need better AWACS for our F-16 because Erieye range is very small 450km it will become useless after MLU of our F-16?? We should sell them to UAE... In war F-16 will be our front line fighter and how will it work when it will not be in range??
> 
> @Aeronaut @Oscar
> 
> 
> 
> Are we working on replacement of damaged p3???



Depends if America is in mood.


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## Fahad Khan 2

mafiya said:


> Depends if America is in mood.



Do you agree we need better. AWACS for our F-16??


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## Bratva

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> Do you agree we need better. AWACS for our F-16??



Nothing is better than Erieye. What's problem with erieye?

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## Fahad Khan 2

mafiya said:


> Nothing is better than Erieye. What's problem with erieye?



PAF is not satisfied, they think SAAB-2000 carrier aircraft is small, the internal space is limited, so the aircrew and aircraft equipped with an insufficient number of display and control units, command boot capacity is limited, while the aircraft's range and endurance is also inadequate, limiting the scope of an aircraft can cover it in a defensive position for the PAF, is not a small drawback. Therefore, there is a greater need to PAF aircraft, can long on duty near the border, but as much as possible to command more planes to resist each other's surprise attack.


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## Bratva

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> PAF is not satisfied, they think SAAB-2000 carrier aircraft is small, the internal space is limited, so the aircrew and aircraft equipped with an insufficient number of display and control units, command boot capacity is limited, while the aircraft's range and endurance is also inadequate, limiting the scope of an aircraft can cover it in a defensive position for the PAF, is not a small drawback. Therefore, there is a greater need to PAF aircraft, can long on duty near the border, but as much as possible to command more planes to resist each other's surprise attack.



Who told you PAF is not satisfied? And which AEWC is better for PAF if not SAAB 2000?? There are around 5-6 display units. Erieye can direct 20-30 aircraft, have a search capability of 450 KM with 300 Degree tracking capability. Aircraft endurance is 8 hours. Electronic Intelligence equipments is one of the best on Erieye. Which AEWC can top such stats ?

SAAB-2000 is bang for bucks if you know what it means.

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## Fahad Khan 2

How many of you buy this theory that one P3 in Mehran and one saab destroyed in Kamra was actually send to china for reverse engineering???

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## Bratva

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> How many of you buy this theory that one P3 in Mehran and one saab destroyed in Kamra was actually send to china for reverse engineering???



Highly sensitive equipments in such systems are digitally sealed, once opened without authorization, original manufacture would instantly know. Theory is at best a laughing matter

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## Fahad Khan 2

mafiya said:


> Highly sensitive equipments in such systems are digitally sealed, once opened without authorization, original manufacture would instantly know. Theory is at best a laughing matter



But if you work in jamming environment facility there can not be any sending of any wave...


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## Bratva

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> But if you work in jamming environment facility there can not be any sending of any wave...



All equipment are checked by OEM if any anomaly occurs, like destruction of Erieye


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## Fahad Khan 2

mafiya said:


> Who told you PAF is not satisfied? And which AEWC is better for PAF if not SAAB 2000?? There are around 5-6 display units. Erieye can direct 20-30 aircraft, have a search capability of 450 KM with 300 Degree tracking capability. Aircraft endurance is 8 hours. Electronic Intelligence equipments is one of the best on Erieye. Which AEWC can top such stats ?
> 
> SAAB-2000 is bang for bucks if you know what it means.



Quoting from Chinese source....



> SAAB-2000 AEW cruising altitude of 7000 meters, the maximum for large air target detection range of 300 km, a small aircraft is 200 km, 100 km cruise missile





mafiya said:


> All equipment are checked by OEM if any anomaly occurs, like destruction of Erieye



OEM ???


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## Bratva

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> Quoting from Chinese source....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OEM ???



Pakistani Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C at Dubai Air Show 2011 | Pakistan Military Review

Some stats to remove your confusion.

*Original equipment manufacturer*


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## Basel

mafiya said:


> Nothing is better than Erieye. What's problem with erieye?



There are many better platforms available in the market Erieye is good but not the best in the world, the problem is that Pakistan may not be able to afford them or uncle SAM will allow the sale to us.

This kind of AWACS PAF needs to counter threat posed by IAF's AWACS & EW systems, as its one of the best and not easy to jam.

Boeing 737 AEW&C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Fahad Khan 2

Basel said:


> There are many better platforms available in the market Erieye is good but not the best in the world, the problem is that Pakistan may not be able to afford them or uncle SAM will allow the sale to us.
> 
> This kind of AWACS PAF needs to counter threat posed by IAF's AWACS & EW systems, as its one of the best and not easy to jam.
> 
> Boeing 737 AEW&C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



whats its range??


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## Basel

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> whats its range??



Below link might answer your question.
Quote:
RANGE CONCERN

Another lingering concern has been focused on the Wedgetail radar's range, which Boeing advertises as greater than 610km (330nm) for targets at 10,000ft and as greater than 390km for targets at 500ft.
unquote:

Airborne early warning redefined by 737, MESA and perseverance - 1/26/2010 - Flight Global

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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> *While at it, why not make it consider it 100 % lost.*...suddenly from battlefront the argument declines to terrorism, then i guess the Americans come out worst who couldn't even save a symbol of their power.
> Dude, the tragedy or maybe even a ploy is that PAF has gone very secretive, our neighbour once shot down a Tornado during an exercise and despite mutual agreement not to disclose anything to media, the opening lines by their OC were congratulating the contingent for the achievement



1 Destroyed, 2 extensively damaged and PAF lied to it's teeth, didn't have the courage to admit it through it's spokesperson but rather disclose it in parliament through MoD. You know it better since you contacted them . So a sarcasm of 100 % lost isn't going to cut it.

An attack at american base, 6 harriers destroyed. They admit it next day, gave an account how it happened, lapses identified Accountability exists.. Did it had any affect on their WoT moral? Did Americans tried to hide their loses?

What kind of accountability exists for those that are helm of affairs? If they are secretly or silently doing their work, It is not a measure for gauging their performance. Silence can be interpreted as failure or nothing to show. Interpretation goes both way


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## Windjammer

Bratva said:


> 1 Destroyed, 2 extensively damaged and PAF lied to it's teeth, didn't have the courage to admit it through it's spokesperson but rather disclose it in parliament through MoD. You know it better since you contacted them . So a sarcasm of 100 % lost isn't going to cut it.
> 
> An attack at american base, 6 harriers destroyed. They admit it next day, gave an account how it happened, lapses identified Accountability exists.. Did it had any affect on their WoT moral? Did Americans tried to hide their loses?
> 
> What kind of accountability exists for those that are helm of affairs? If they are secretly or silently doing their work, It is not a measure for gauging their performance. Silence can be interpreted as failure or nothing to show. Interpretation goes both way


Dragging one argument into another thread and unable to comprehend the psyche of the post is not going to cut it either. You are quick to give one American example yet oblivious of their and others State secret act besides the DMA didn't exactly denied the damage.


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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> Dragging one argument into another thread and unable to comprehend the psyche of the post is not going to cut it either. You are quick to give one American example yet oblivious of their and others State secret act besides the DMA didn't exactly denied the damage.



Is this argument related to JF-17 that I had to continue arguing there ?? I comprehended the psyche of post. I just pointed out the flaws in the psyche of this or previous posts I quote.If they are silent about achievements than they are also silent and quiet about the major screwups or failures as well. French avionics deal, how India screwed us. How PAF couldn't see that before hand ? JF-17 program delays and JF-17 production capacity below 10 aircraft per year. How come PAF didn't secured enough funds before hand to to keep program running. Major screw up at PAF Kamra air base.

That's why I said. Interpretation goes both ways about working quietly and silently

Give one example where America hide such losses up to 6 months? Since your posts implies there are major assets lost which they covered it up to hide their incompetence and ineptness

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## Windjammer

Bratva said:


> Is this argument related to JF-17 that I had to continue arguing there ?? I comprehended the psyche of post. I just pointed out the flaws in the psyche of this or previous posts I quote.If they are silent about achievements than they are also silent and quiet about the major screwups or failures as well. French avionics deal, how India screwed us. How PAF couldn't see that before hand ? JF-17 program delays and JF-17 production capacity below 10 aircraft per year. How come PAF didn't secured enough funds before hand to to keep program running. Major screw up at PAF Kamra air base.
> 
> That's why I said. Interpretation goes both ways about working quietly and silently
> 
> Give one example where America hide such losses up to 6 months? Since your posts implies there are major assets lost which they covered it up to hide their incompetence and ineptness


Don't understand what your motive or agenda is but if you expect the PAF to issue a press release to the public about it's daily routines then my friend you are not in the wrong country but on the wrong planet. Nowhere in the world such secrets or info is made public, you just need to google for state secret acts to get some idea on how certain things function. Believe me even here in the West, it's not all plain sailings, albeit not consigned to defence but still a state matter, the of building the Scottish Parliament is a fiasco of national shame.



> From the outset, the building and its construction have been controversial.The choices of location, architect, design, and construction company were all criticised by politicians, the media and the Scottish public. Scheduled to open in 2001, it did so in 2004, more than three years late with an estimated final cost of £414 million, many times higher than initial estimates of between £10m and £40m.

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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> *Don't understand what your motive or agenda is* but if you expect the *PAF to issue a press release to the public* about it's daily routines then my friend you are not in the wrong country but on the wrong planet. *Nowhere in the world such secrets or info is made public*, you just need to google for state secret acts to get some idea on how certain things function. Believe me even here in the West, it's not all plain sailings, albeit not consigned to defence but still a state matter, the of building the Scottish Parliament is a fiasco of national shame.



1. Feel good stories, anonymous sources are one sided always. If I saw a flaw in such claims, should I wholeheartedly accept it given PAF has track record of lying? and how come it becomes a motive or an agenda? Thinking of feel good stories, JF-17 crash was declared a bird strike by anonymous sources. We know how it turned out later

2. Where did I say or gives a hint that PAF do daily public press releases? "Sawal Chana Jawab Gandum". Our whole argument about is about the claim anon sources made and how it is incompatible in future warfare but you are making irrelevant assumptions. 

3. Was Erieye a state secret that it needs to be coverup?? No, but PAF did it why? To hide it.

Now I think we are moving in circles. I rest my case.


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## Mav3rick

Bratva said:


> 1. Feel good stories, anonymous sources are one sided always. If I saw a flaw in such claims, should I wholeheartedly accept it given PAF has track record of lying? and how come it becomes a motive or an agenda? Thinking of feel good stories, JF-17 crash was declared a bird strike by anonymous sources. We know how it turned out later
> 
> 2. Where did I say or gives a hint that PAF do daily public press releases? "Sawal Chana Jawab Gandum". Our whole argument about is about the claim anon sources made and how it is incompatible in future warfare but you are making irrelevant assumptions.
> 
> 3. Was Erieye a state secret that it needs to be coverup?? No, but PAF did it why? To hide it.
> 
> Now I think we are moving in circles. I rest my case.



Don't you think some disclosures, or lack thereof, are strategic? I quite literally fail to understand the benefit that you, I or the next common man would have gained with that particular knowledge. On the other hand, such knowledge just may be a gold chest to the neighbours.

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## fatman17

ZDK-03 Cockpit.




ZDK-03 Airborne Controllers Panel

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## nomi007

*Windjammer* any info about last and 4th zdk


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## shaheenmissile

Bratva said:


> Who told you PAF is not satisfied? And which AEWC is better for PAF if not SAAB 2000?? There are around 5-6 display units. Erieye can direct 20-30 aircraft, have a search capability of 450 KM with 300 Degree tracking capability. Aircraft endurance is 8 hours. Electronic Intelligence equipments is one of the best on Erieye. Which AEWC can top such stats ?
> 
> SAAB-2000 is bang for bucks if you know what it means.


Pakistan never got the electronic intelligence suit with Erieye. All were plain simple AWACS. The ELINT/SIGINT sensor suit is added extra.Either Pakistan didn't get it due to financial restrains or couldn't get it due to US/Indian pressure on Sweden


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## EAK

shaheenmissile said:


> Pakistan never got the electronic intelligence suit with Erieye. All were plain simple AWACS. The ELING/SIGINT sensor suit is added extra.Either Pakistan didn't get it due to financial restrains or couldn't get it due to US*/Indian pressure* on Sweden


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## nomi007

shaheenmissile said:


> Pakistan never got the electronic intelligence suit with Erieye. All were plain simple AWACS. The ELINT/SIGINT sensor suit is added extra.Either Pakistan didn't get it due to financial restrains or couldn't get it due to US/Indian pressure on Sweden


bhai before posting any comments it is better to study whole topic
start for page 1


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## shaheenmissile

nomi007 said:


> bhai before posting any comments it is better to study whole topic
> start for page 1


yes,
but there is no ELINT/SIGINT in any of Pakistan's erieye. HES-21 on Pakistan's erieye are also washed down versions.


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## nomi007

shaheenmissile said:


> yes,
> but there is no ELINT/SIGINT in any of Pakistan's erieye. HES-21 on Pakistan's erieye are also washed down versions.


yr ap ne to bohut important secret share kar dia sab k sath


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## Hammad-ROX

Bratva said:


> Nothing is better than Erieye. What's problem with erieye?



Is it better than IAF Phalcon?


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## kaku1

Hammad-ROX said:


> Is it better than IAF Phalcon?



Yup far way ahead.


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## Hammad-ROX

kaku1 said:


> Yup far way ahead.



Well sir i have seen some posts which claims that an ereiye was destroyed in kamra attack. Is this true?


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## kaku1

Hammad-ROX said:


> Well sir i have seen some posts which claims that an ereiye was destroyed in kamra attack. Is this true?



Nope, thats Orion aircraft, they are used to detecting submerged submarine, they are not awacs. BTW, they are destroyed in Mehran, dont know about Kamra. 

BTW, dont call me sir, I am just 20 yr old kid.


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## Hammad-ROX

kaku1 said:


> Nope, thats Orion aircraft, they are used to detecting submerged submarine, they are not awacs. BTW, they are destroyed in Mehran, dont know about Kamra.
> 
> BTW, dont call me sir, I am just 20 yr old kid.




And I am 18 year old

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## In arduis fidelis

A


Hammad-ROX said:


> Well sir i have seen some posts which claims that an ereiye was destroyed in kamra attack. Is this true?


Actually it is true if you read the relevant threads you would come to know that the planes were destroyed contrary to the government version of story.Proof:show me one picture of erieye after attack on Kamra.

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## TeesraIndiotHunter

Hammad-ROX said:


> Is it better than IAF Phalcon?



No, phalcons are more powerful.

However, as of now, PAF holds superiority over IAF when it comes to AWACS coverage and integrated flights of jets.

IAF has too less Falcons. They'll need more to cover their required area. 

PAF already pretty much covers everything!

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## Bratva

Hammad-ROX said:


> Well sir i have seen some posts which claims that an ereiye was destroyed in kamra attack. Is this true?



Yes One was destroyed and no it is not better than IAF phalcon


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## shaheenmissile

Bratva said:


> Yes One was destroyed and no it is not better than IAF phalcon


radar range is same


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## nomi007




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## fatman17

ZDK-03 touching down














Saab Transport to be converted to Erieye.

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## thrilainmanila

do the zdk-03 really have AESA Capability, and if thats true does it make it more powerful then the saab2000s radar. how many eyeries are left or are all destroyed?


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## shaheenmissile

thrilainmanila said:


> do the zdk-03 really have AESA Capability, and if thats true does it make it more powerful then the saab2000s radar. how many eyeries are left or are all destroyed?


Pakistan has complete control over ZDK-03 and can modify/ improve the ship as and when they want. No such luxury with erieye.


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## thrilainmanila

shaheenmissile said:


> Pakistan has complete control over ZDK-03 and can modify/ improve the ship as and when they want. No such luxury with erieye.



but do we still have the eyerie or did all 3 get destroyed


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## shaheenmissile

thrilainmanila said:


> but do we still have the eyerie or did all 3 get destroyed


nobody knows.........

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## aliyusuf

shaheenmissile said:


> nobody knows.........



Slightly less than 2 years back I read a google translated swedish article (a portion of it) posted in PakistaniDefenceForum ... which was actually screaming at their lawmakers not to pass a bill to provide credit to Pakistan for the repair and restoration of two Erieye based Saab 2000 air crafts. It also stated that one Saab 2000 had been completely destroyed. It further argued that the lawmakers shouldn't allow the tax payers hard earned money to be wasted for a country that could not protect it's vital assets in peacetime. The tone of the article was quite unflattering towards Pakistan.

Hence in my opinion ... 1 got totally destroyed ... 2 got damaged in varying degrees (but deemed salvageable) ... 1 EriEye Operational.

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## shaheenmissile

aliyusuf said:


> Slightly less than 2 years back I read a google translated swedish article (a portion of it) posted in PakistaniDefenceForum ... which was actually screaming at their lawmakers not to pass a bill to provide credit to Pakistan for the repair and restoration of two Erieye based Saab 2000 air crafts. It also stated that one Saab 2000 had been completely destroyed. It further argued that the lawmakers shouldn't allow the tax payers hard earned money to be wasted for a country that could not protect it's vital assets in peacetime. The tone of the article was quite unflattering towards Pakistan.
> 
> Hence in my opinion ... 1 got totally destroyed ... 2 got damaged in varying degrees (but deemed salvageable) ... 1 EriEye Operational.


that article was screaming for the actual purchase loan.The erieye purchase was financed by a loan given by Swedish government.
After the attacks no official news ever came out about the erieye,except some statements by defence secretary of GOP.

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## aliyusuf

shaheenmissile said:


> that article was screaming for the actual purchase loan.The erieye purchase was financed by a loan given by Swedish government.
> After the attacks no official news ever came out about the erieye,except some statements by defence secretary of GOP.



The article does make reference to independent sources that 1 got destroyed and 2 were damaged and Pakistan were seeking to get them repaired ...



> ...
> 
> *Two independent sources say the Di that one of Erieyeplanen was completely destroyed and the other two planes are so severely injured that they have to undergo repairs.*
> 
> In practice, the Swedish tax money which has now gone up in smoke in a Taliban attack. State Swedish Export has namely funded plan through a credit agreement of 7.4 billion concluded 2006th
> 
> In May 2012 came the final order, and only a few months later - in August - beating the Taliban.
> 
> It is about the Pakistani Air Force Perhaps the single most valuable asset, and not just the purchase price of SEK 7 billion. Erieye is counted as one of the most advanced surveillance systems and has made it possible for Pakistan to have full control over what happens in the air, and to a large extent on the ground.
> 
> *Only one of the four Erieyeplanen escaped the attack. It was elsewhere in Pakistan.*
> 
> Government of Pakistan is now very anxious to get the two damaged planes repaired with Saab's help and discussions have taken place at express speed.
> 
> ...

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## Kompromat

There is no evidence of any destroyed Erieye. The report is bogus as all Erieyes weren't stationed together.

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## shaheenmissile

aliyusuf said:


> The article does make reference to independent sources that 1 got destroyed and 2 were damaged and Pakistan were seeking to get them repaired ...


That *one* is 10040
The rest are either destroyed in a smokeless fire or hidden somewhere.



Aeronaut said:


> There is no evidence of any destroyed Erieye. The report is bogus as all Erieyes weren't stationed together.



Terrorists went Northwards that night. Fuel tank was hot,but no other fire was seen. Erieye were kept in these three hangers. Whether all three hangers were inhabited that night or not,that is not known.


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## Kompromat

^ Yes, there's no 'evidence' to prove the destruction of any Erieye.


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## ares

Aeronaut said:


> ^ Yes, there's no 'evidence' to prove the destruction of any Erieye.



Except PAF chiefs interview with Alan Warnes where he talks about the destroyed AWACS at Minhas and in statement by pakistani defence secretary in the national assembly.



> *
> Feb 6-9/13: Revelations.* Defence Secretary Lt. Gen. (ret.) Asif Yasin Malik informs Pakistan’s National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence that the defence installations saw their last attacks in Peshawar and the Kamra airbase,* but adds that an AWACS plane was destroyed during the attack on Kamra AB in August 2012*. Initially, it isn’t clear which AWACS plane type he’s referring to, but a subsequent report by Pakistan’s The News International confirms that it was *one of Saab’s S2000 AEW planes.*
> 
> That’s a bit awkward, because Pakistani authorities have apparently been claiming for the last 6 months that the attack had just damaged an aircraft’s nose cone, and that it would be repaired in Sweden. The report also refers to “one of the four” planes, which would finally provide a reliable number.
> 
> Speaking of reliable numbers, the report quotes varied prices per plane of $130-140 million, up to $250 million. It’s true that the final, reduced deal was worth about $1 billion, so dividing by 4 does get $250 million. On the other hand, any purchase like this must also include extensive training, a full stock of spare parts, and extensive initial support. A $140 million per plane figure implies a split of $560 million planes (140 x 4) + $440 million support etc. That seems high, but it all depends on the level of support provided. The News International
> 
> 
> 
> | TNI follow-on
> 
> 
> 
> .





> *March 21/13: Need a fix.* Saab announces a 5-year, SEK 1.1 billion ($170 million) contract that runs from 2013-2017, and covers “a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a previously delivered system, Saab 2000 AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control).” Unfortunately, “The industry’s nature is such that depending on circumstances concerning the product and customer, information regarding the customer will not be announced.”
> 
> The answer seemed obvious. Air forces using Saab turboprop AWACS include Sweden, Thailand and the UAE (Saab 340), and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (stretched Saab 2000 variant). Pakistan’s sale is well known and hasn’t been secret, so a Saab 2000 AEW&C customer insisting on secrecy must mean… Saudi Arabia.
> 
> Except that we might have been wrong. What even the February revelations in Pakistan hadn’t disclosed is that the attack on Minhas AB in Pakistan happened *with 3 Erieye planes on the ground. One was destroyed – but 2 others were very badly damaged. That leaves Pakistan with a fleet of just 1 plane, until it gets those 2 fixed.* That could explain this $170 million contract, with the sudden secrecy invoked because Pakistan doesn’t want to publicly admit the extent of the loss; indeed, if Saab doesn’t announce a separate SEK 1+ billion support contract soon, the default assumption for this deal must become Pakistan.
> 
> The problem for Sweden, says Sweden’s Dagens Industri in an April 10/13 article, is that the original purchase was funded by a 2006 credit arrangement of SEK 7.4 billion from the Swedish Export Credit and Export Credits Guarantee Board. Now they’ll have to add SEK 1+ billion to cover this, all to a country that isn’t viewed as a terrific credit risk. Our Swedish source says that Dagen Industri is about to break a follow-on story involving “questionable commissions” related to the sale. No, we’re not shocked, either. But Sweden has laws that will be enforced, even if Pakistan’s aren’t. Saab Group
> 
> 
> 
> |Dagens Industri
> 
> 
> 
> [in Swedish].
> Aerial Eyes: Pakistan’s New AWACS Fleets

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## gslv mk3

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> AF holds superiority over IAF when it comes to AWACS coverage and integrated flights of jets.



elaborate

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## shaheenmissile

gslv mk3 said:


> elaborate


Somple. IAF only got 4 Phalcons for such a large air space.


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## gslv mk3

shaheenmissile said:


> Somple. IAF only got 4 Phalcons for such a large air space.



About 'integrated flights'?


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## illuminatidinesh

shaheenmissile said:


> Somple. IAF only got 4 Phalcons for such a large air space.


If u think IAF uses only Phalcons for AWACS role then its not IAF s mistake.
Different country different doctrine. Irrelevant quote of superiority


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## shaheenmissile

gslv mk3 said:


> About 'integrated flights'?


4 Indian awacs with 450km range each,cannot cover indian air space. On the other hand 7 or 8 pakistani awacs with same range more than cover pakistani air space,but also detect anything that goes airbirne deep inside india.


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## gslv mk3

shaheenmissile said:


> 4 Indian awacs with 450km range each,cannot cover indian air space. On the other hand 7 or 8 pakistani awacs with same range more than cover pakistani air space,but also detect anything that goes airbirne deep inside india.



Its 5 AWACS aircraft,and phalcons have more range.

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## shaheenmissile

gslv mk3 said:


> Its 5 AWACS aircraft,and phalcons have more range.


Are you adding the DRDO's experimental and not yet operational awacs into the equation?


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## gslv mk3

shaheenmissile said:


> Are you adding the DRDO's experimental and not yet operational awacs into the equation?



About yours pal.For DRDO one,It will come in 2015.


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## shaheenmissile

India has total of 5 Bereva-


gslv mk3 said:


> About yours pal.For DRDO one,It will come in 2015.


Ok.
India had 5 Russian A-50 AWACS with Russian Radars and early warning system. later 3 were upgraded to Israeli . Tenders were floated for the remaining two to be upgraded,but haven't been done yet.
So yes three Phalcons and two older Russian A-50


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## Dazzler

no offtopic rants here. keep it on paf awacs.


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## Ray_of_Hope

does ZDK-3 have capability to share data with f16 and mirage?

Does ZDK-3 have capability to share data with f16 and mirage?


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## gslv mk3

shaheenmissile said:


> India has total of 5 Bereva-
> 
> India had 5 Russian A-50 AWACS with Russian Radars and early warning system. later 3 were upgraded to Israeli . Tenders were floated for the remaining two to be upgraded,but haven't been done yet.
> So yes three Phalcons and two older Russian A-50



I was talking abut PAFs ZDK 03 & Erieyes.


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## fatman17

war khan said:


> does ZDK-3 have capability to share data with f16 and mirage?
> 
> Does ZDK-3 have capability to share data with f16 and mirage?


 
PAF developing a land-based system to talk to erieye as well as western aircraft.

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## Ray_of_Hope

fatman17 said:


> PAF developing a land-based system to talk to erieye as well as western aircraft.


I have also heard of such a thing.But was`nt that supposed just for communication purposes?i.e.No data relaying


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## Viper0011.

ares said:


> Except PAF chiefs interview with Alan Warnes where he talks about the destroyed AWACS at Minhas and in statement by pakistani defence secretary in the national assembly.



The AWACS are kept in separate locations in separate squadrons, 3 planes per squadron I think. There was a reason why first Minhas and then the other base was attacked as that's where two squadrons were supposed to be located at.
One Erieye's airframe was destroyed totally but the Radar and majority of the internal systems (workstations, servers, sensors) were salvageable. So more than likely, these will be put on a new SAAB airframe, however, some damaged items will be replaced with OEM parts, all wiring, sensor connections and testing will have to be done as part of this work.

Another AWACS was destroyed beyond repair, that was one of the ZDK's along with Orion. Due to the fact that terrorists are using sophisticated google maps, etc. PAF has started to hide these assets / shift the locations with limited knowledge so that not everyone knows about their schedules and movements. I think they keep 1 ZDK at Minhas because it is going through extensive maritime training and flight testing for feature enhancements. Once that's done, they might start to shift that ZDK to other locations too. What PAF desperately needs is a 12 - 14 feet concrete security wall around these sensitive hangers. As soon as there is gun fire, you close the gate, so no visibility to attackers as it's hard to target something over a 14-16 feet wall that then has hangers inside. Once an attack is discovered, the crew can immediately start to close hanger doors, which would form the second security tier inside the concrete wall. Plenty of safety from RPG's. It'll give time to security forces to take the bad guys down.


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## Bratva

orangzaib said:


> The AWACS are kept in separate locations in separate squadrons, 3 planes per squadron I think. There was a reason why first Minhas and then the other base was attacked as that's where two squadrons were supposed to be located at.
> One Erieye's airframe was destroyed totally but the Radar and majority of the internal systems (workstations, servers, sensors) were salvageable. So more than likely, these will be put on a new SAAB airframe, however, some damaged items will be replaced with OEM parts, all wiring, sensor connections and testing will have to be done as part of this work.
> 
> Another AWACS was destroyed beyond repair, that was one of the ZDK's along with Orion. Due to the fact that terrorists are using sophisticated google maps, etc. PAF has started to hide these assets / shift the locations with limited knowledge so that not everyone knows about their schedules and movements. I think they keep 1 ZDK at Minhas because it is going through extensive maritime training and flight testing for feature enhancements. Once that's done, they might start to shift that ZDK to other locations too. What PAF desperately needs is a 12 - 14 feet concrete security wall around these sensitive hangers. As soon as there is gun fire, you close the gate, so no visibility to attackers as it's hard to target something over a 14-16 feet wall that then has hangers inside. Once an attack is discovered, the crew can immediately start to close hanger doors, which would form the second security tier inside the concrete wall. Plenty of safety from RPG's. It'll give time to security forces to take the bad guys down.




Well, You are totally wrong on ZDK destruction, it was typo by alan warnes. It was 1 damaged SAAB, 1 Destroyed SAAB.

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## In arduis fidelis

orangzaib said:


> The AWACS are kept in separate locations in separate squadrons, 3 planes per squadron I think. There was a reason why first Minhas and then the other base was attacked as that's where two squadrons were supposed to be located at.
> One Erieye's airframe was destroyed totally but the Radar and majority of the internal systems (workstations, servers, sensors) were salvageable. So more than likely, these will be put on a new SAAB airframe, however, some damaged items will be replaced with OEM parts, all wiring, sensor connections and testing will have to be done as part of this work.
> 
> Another AWACS was destroyed beyond repair, that was one of the ZDK's along with Orion. Due to the fact that terrorists are using sophisticated google maps, etc. PAF has started to hide these assets / shift the locations with limited knowledge so that not everyone knows about their schedules and movements. I think they keep* 1 ZDK at Minhas because it is going through extensive maritime training and flight testing for feature enhancements*. Once that's done, they might start to shift that ZDK to other locations too. What PAF desperately needs is a 12 - 14 feet concrete security wall around these sensitive hangers. As soon as there is gun fire, you close the gate, so no visibility to attackers as it's hard to target something over a 14-16 feet wall that then has hangers inside. Once an attack is discovered, the crew can immediately start to close hanger doors, which would form the second security tier inside the concrete wall. Plenty of safety from RPG's. It'll give time to security forces to take the bad guys down.


Maritime training in PAF base Minhas??


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## Viper0011.

Rafay Jamil said:


> Maritime training in PAF base Minhas??
> View attachment 40770



Thanks for the correction. I meant Mehran. AWACS are not operated by the PN. They are a part of the PAF's air arm. The flight ops run from Mehran to support the PN. Unless something has changed?

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## Viper0011.

Bratva said:


> Well, You are totally wrong on ZDK destruction, it was typo by alan warnes. It was 1 damaged SAAB, 1 Destroyed SAAB.



Are you sure about it? One of the ZDK serial number delivered has never been seen since. If you have some pictures of all three taken recently, I'd love to see those.


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## Bratva

orangzaib said:


> Are you sure about it? One of the ZDK serial number delivered has never been seen since. If you have some pictures of all three taken recently, I'd love to see those.



Last one isn't delivered yet




















@Oscar @Dazzler Why there is such a discrepancy in serial numbers of ZDK ?

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## Viper0011.

Bratva said:


> Last one isn't delivered yet
> 
> Why there is such a discrepancy in serial numbers of ZDK ?



Thank you. When were these taken? I was talking about since the attacks. Second, its not Discrepancy, its the naming convention, the 11,12,13 refers to the year delivered I believe.


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## Bratva

orangzaib said:


> Thank you. When were these taken? I was talking about since the attacks. Second, its not Discrepancy, its the naming convention, the 11,12,13 refers to the year delivered I believe.



No idea when they were taken. By discrepancy, why there serial number changed from 11 to 12 or from 12 to 13 ?


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## SQ8

Bratva said:


> No idea when they were taken. By discrepancy, why there serial number changed from 11 to 12 or from 12 to 13 ?



Depends on the year of Induction. It is done sometimes for budgetary purposes, sometimes for logistical purposes. 
The number to watch is the last three digits.


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## Dazzler

no zdk was ever destroyed, fourth one is not yet delivered due to systems and radar enhancement, rest will also be upgraded. saab officials in pk, work on saab 2000 conversion to erieye underway.



Bratva said:


> Last one isn't delivered yet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Oscar @Dazzler Why there is such a discrepancy in serial numbers of ZDK ?



due to delay in induction, they had to change serial numbers, originally all four were supposed to be in service by 2013.

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## Luftwaffe

Dazzler said:


> no zdk was ever destroyed, fourth one is not yet delivered due to systems and radar enhancement, rest will also be upgraded. saab officials in pk, work on saab 2000 conversion to erieye underway.



Are upgrades based upon KJ-500?


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## Dazzler

Luftwaffe said:


> Are upgrades based upon KJ-500?



nothing known so far


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## Imran Khan

every time i click this thread expect 4 saab2000 line up but damn no i am dreaming

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## Bratva

Luftwaffe said:


> Are upgrades based upon KJ-500?



As per H Khan



AFAIK, 004 is not delivered yet? 003 got delivered in June 0f 2013. But so far there are no indication of arrival of 004.

I know there were certain modification being performed on the last aircraft since PAF is planning to order 3 or 4 more of these aircrafts. 


Some points about ZDK-03 and couple of other items of interest.

Y8P (formerly ZKD-08) has two antennas with horizontal mechanical scanning. Its range is 2m2 aerial targets is 300Km. It tracks 9 aircrafts simultaneously. It has a very good maritime search capability. PAF is developing their own data-link system able to integrate Y8P and Erieye. One of the main problems with Y8P is that it is so loud that even crew wearing headsets has to deal with engine/cabin loud noise. Pakistan is very happy with it intends to order three or four more aircrafts.

Klimov is offering RD93MA engine with 9,000kg reheat trust. Intended offer is for JF-17 and to install on J-31. But PAF/PAC has said that they have no plans to upgrade the trust on its JF-17.

CPMIEC is offering Pakistan FK3 SAM system in place of FD-2000 because the later is very expensive."

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## Luftwaffe

Bratva said:


> As per H Khan
> 
> AFAIK, 004 is not delivered yet? 003 got delivered in June 0f 2013. But so far there are no indication of arrival of 004.
> 
> I know there were certain modification being performed on the last aircraft since PAF is planning to order 3 or 4 more of these aircrafts.
> 
> Some points about ZDK-03 and couple of other items of interest.
> 
> Y8P (formerly ZKD-08) has two antennas with horizontal mechanical scanning. Its range is 2m2 aerial targets is 300Km. It tracks 9 aircrafts simultaneously. It has a very good maritime search capability. PAF is developing their own data-link system able to integrate Y8P and Erieye. One of the main problems with Y8P is that it is so loud that even crew wearing headsets has to deal with engine/cabin loud noise. Pakistan is very happy with it intends to order three or four more aircrafts.



Hmm Y-8 I was hoping Y-9 would be the platform the stretched version of Y-8.


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## fatman17

i can confirm that no ZDK's were destroyed as.....
no 4 sqn is based at masroor-karachi and i know the OC quite well. all a/c are now dispersed at their respective airbases and not stored/parked together.

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## Donatello

Bratva said:


> As per H Khan
> 
> 
> 
> AFAIK, 004 is not delivered yet? 003 got delivered in June 0f 2013. But so far there are no indication of arrival of 004.
> 
> I know there were certain modification being performed on the last aircraft since PAF is planning to order 3 or 4 more of these aircrafts.
> 
> 
> Some points about ZDK-03 and couple of other items of interest.
> 
> Y8P (formerly ZKD-08) has two antennas with horizontal mechanical scanning. Its range is 2m2 aerial targets is 300Km. It tracks 9 aircrafts simultaneously. It has a very good maritime search capability. PAF is developing their own data-link system able to integrate Y8P and Erieye. One of the main problems with Y8P is that it is so loud that even crew wearing headsets has to deal with engine/cabin loud noise. Pakistan is very happy with it intends to order three or four more aircrafts.
> 
> Klimov is offering RD93MA engine with 9,000kg reheat trust. Intended offer is for JF-17 and to install on J-31. But PAF/PAC has said that they have no plans to upgrade the trust on its JF-17.
> 
> CPMIEC is offering Pakistan FK3 SAM system in place of FD-2000 because the later is very expensive."




Why not take the Klimov offer and procure, say, 50 or so RD93MAs for BLK3? It's rumored to be having more physical changes, more thrust will help increase the overall payload/hardpoints on the JFT.


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## Chak Bamu

Donatello said:


> Why not take the Klimov offer and procure, say, 50 or so RD93MAs for BLK3? It's rumored to be having more physical changes, more thrust will help increase the overall payload/hardpoints on the JFT.


1. Bargaining
2. Stock
3. WS-13

It could be any of the above.

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## Dazzler

Luftwaffe said:


> Hmm Y-8 I was hoping Y-9 would be the platform the stretched version of Y-8.



actually y8p is based on y8-f600 series which is in fact the y-9 initial platform with six blade propeller glass cockpit pressurised cabin solid nose and sttuctural improvements.

if what H Khan stated about range is true, than we have a very good platform in possession!

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## Bilal.

Dazzler said:


> actually y8p is based on y8-f600 series which is in fact the y-9 initial platform with six blade propeller glass cockpit pressurised cabin solid nose and sttuctural improvements.
> 
> if what H Khan stated about range is true, than we have a very good platform in possession!



What about his comment on RD93MA?


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## Viper0011.

Bratva said:


> As per H Khan
> 
> Y8P (formerly ZKD-08) has two antennas with horizontal mechanical scanning. Its range is 2m2 aerial targets is 300Km. It tracks 9 aircrafts simultaneously.
> 
> CPMIEC is offering Pakistan FK3 SAM system in place of FD-2000 because the later is very expensive."



How many does Erieye track and guide simultaneously ( 9 seems like a pretty low number in my opinion). Also any details on FK3 SAM's?


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## Dazzler

orangzaib said:


> How many does Erieye track and guide simultaneously ( 9 seems like a pretty low number in my opinion). Also any details on FK3 SAM's?



9 in multitrack and engage mode is not bad at all



Bilal. said:


> What about his comment on RD93MA?



we all have seen it being tested in china, whether paf goes for it or noy, its their choice

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## Viper0011.

Dazzler said:


> 9 in multitrack and engage mode is not bad at all



What's the total track while scan capability? Lock / Engage mode reduces the number ofcourse but usually situational awareness / track while scan is a much larger number. How many PAF aircraft's it can guide simultaneously?




Dazzler said:


> we all have seen it being tested in china, whether paf goes for it or noy, its their choice


Ok, thank you. I think Pakistan needed a long range / high altitude air defense system like last year so the sooner something credible is procured, the better it is.

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## Dazzler

orangzaib said:


> What's the total track while scan capability? Lock / Engage mode reduces the number ofcourse but usually situational awareness / track while scan is a much larger number. How many PAF aircraft's it can guide simultaneously?
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, thank you. I think Pakistan needed a long range / high altitude air defense system like last year so the sooner something credible is procured, the better it is.


most welcome,

SAM story is a bit funny, china offered fd-2000 which was a cheaper version of hq-9, now fd2000 also has a cheaper version, we do make them work hard at times

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> i can confirm that no ZDK's were destroyed as.....
> no 4 sqn is based at masroor-karachi and i know the OC quite well. all a/c are now dispersed at their respective airbases and not stored/parked together.



Was this being discussed seriously?

I think we all agreed that it was a typo...


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## Donatello

Tracking 9 targets seems pretty low. A small fighter sized radar can do that. Are we missing something here?

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## Ray_of_Hope

I dont know why pakistan is not intrested in buying long range air defence missile systems.I dont think we ever had one in our history.Is there a reason behind this or pakistan does not need to buy these?


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## HRK

Bratva said:


> As per H Khan
> 
> I know there were certain modification being performed on the last aircraft since *PAF is planning to order 3 or 4 more of these aircrafts.*



in reply to that post I asked to H Khan the reason for additional ZDK, as I am not getting the logic behind this alleged possibility of additional order .... *can someone help me to understand*

*7-8* ZDK for *150 *JF-17 means *1 ZDK for every single squadron of JF-17,* which appears to me such a lavish resource allocation as per PAF standards, secondly I don't think 7-8 squadron n of 17s would be stationed at 7-8 or different basses, so from the operational point of view I don't see any real need of additional orders, assuming that as of now it can only operable with JF-17s, for western fighters systems we are using SAAB 2000.

If this 'speculation' of HKhan is correct it be an indication of two different possibilities:

PAF has decided to *increase the number of 17s* or there is a strong *possibility of induction of any other Chinese platform *(again assuming that it is only operable with Chinese origin fighter)
PAF might has resolved the issue of direct link/DATA transfer b/w ZDK & F-16s
if someone can help .... or comment further ....???


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## Bratva

HRK said:


> in reply to that post I asked to H Khan the reason for additional ZDK, as I am not getting the logic behind this alleged possibility of additional order .... *can someone help me to understand*
> 
> *7-8* ZDK for *150 *JF-17 means *1 ZDK for every single squadron of JF-17,* which appears to me such a lavish resource allocation as per PAF standards, secondly I don't think 7-8 square of 17s would be stationed at 7-8 or different basses, so from the operational point of view I don't see any real need of additional orders, assuming that as of now it can only operable with JF-17s, for western fighters systems we are using SAAB 2000.
> 
> If this 'speculation' of HKhan is correct it be an indication of two different possibilities:
> 
> PAF has decided to *increase the number of 17s* or there is a strong *possibility of induction of any other Chinese platform *(again assuming that it is only operable with Chinese origin fighter)
> PAF might has resolved the issue of direct link/DATA transfer b/w ZDK & F-16s
> if someone can help .... or comment further ....???



3-4 more would be based on KJ-500. Pakistan is building Navy bases in Balochistan. A permanent AWAC squadron ( First three or four with limited AESA scan) for navy is one of the possible scenarios why Pakistan would order more AWAC. Airborne radars for navy would fill the gaps that exist in surface ships long range detection capability while the latter 3-4 with true 360 degree capability would service Pakistan AF.

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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Tracking 9 targets seems pretty low. A small fighter sized radar can do that. Are we missing something here?


Piss poor actually, considering that the 20 year old E-2's APS-145 can track over 2000. 
Perhaps the idea of tracking target means controlling interceptions. Even then , that figure is appalling if true.

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## thrilainmanila

How does the ZDK03 compare to the saab-2000s?


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## SQ8

thrilainmanila said:


> How does the ZDK03 compare to the saab-2000s?


In a nutshell. 
Greater scan range, less clearer picture. 
Greater loiter time, less sophisticated equipment.

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## Dazzler

Oscar said:


> Piss poor actually, considering that the 20 year old E-2's APS-145 can track over 2000.
> Perhaps the idea of tracking target means controlling interceptions. Even then , that figure is appalling if true.



tracks 30, engage 9-10 simultaneously 

kj2000 can track 50, so not bad in that context

zdk has better sea scanning compared to erieye


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## Bilal.

Oscar said:


> In a nutshell.
> Greater scan range, less clearer picture.
> Greater loiter time, less sophisticated equipment.



Should have gone for those l88. Opportunity missed.


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## SQ8

Dazzler said:


> tracks 30, engage 9-10 simultaneously
> 
> kj2000 can track 50, so not bad in that context
> 
> zdk has better sea scanning compared to erieye



Not that impressive at all. The APS-145 does 20 interceptions from a *smaller airframe*.



Bilal. said:


> Should have gone for those l88. Opportunity missed.



Once you understand that is the mentality of the Pakistani military in terms of procurement. Things will be much simpler to digest

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## VelocuR

Oscar said:


> In a nutshell.
> Greater scan range, less clearer picture.
> Greater loiter time, less sophisticated equipment.



I am disappointed, why Pakistan purchased these ZDK at first place......


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## syed_yusuf

I think the news posting is wrong 

9 a very small number 

Not possible for an aewcs 

I read some where that it is more like 40 but will find the source


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## shaheenmissile

Zdk-03 software was heavily modified by pakistan. Exact capabilities are classified

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Piss poor actually, considering that the 20 year old E-2's APS-145 can track over 2000.
> Perhaps the idea of tracking target means controlling interceptions. Even then , that figure is appalling if true.



Yea, that's what i was thinking, it's too poor to be true. Probably a typo. Once the order goes ahead, as usual we will know more.



Bratva said:


> 3-4 more would be based on KJ-500. Pakistan is building Navy bases in Balochistan. A permanent AWAC squadron ( First three or four with limited AESA scan) for navy is one of the possible scenarios why Pakistan would order more AWAC. Airborne radars for navy would fill the gaps that exist in surface ships long range detection capability while the latter 3-4 with true 360 degree capability would service Pakistan AF.



I believe they would still be used by PAF, as Navy hardly has the expertise or the budget to allocate for these new assets. They are quite occupied with the P3Cs, and as such should focus on what Navy really does : get more ships, and submarines with SLCM capability.


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## Viper0011.

Dazzler said:


> most welcome,
> 
> SAM story is a bit funny, china offered fd-2000 which was a cheaper version of hq-9, now fd2000 also has a cheaper version, we do make them work hard at times



That's for sure, a cheaper version will hopefully be just as capable? Also, could you double check with your source on 9 engagements? and the full track while scan count for the ZDK-03 platform? This number looks awful to be honest, for such a large jet to fly, operators, fuel and maintenance cost, vs. the capability. I think there may have been something missing from the picture.....


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## Luftwaffe

Dazzler said:


> most welcome,
> 
> SAM story is a bit funny, china offered fd-2000 which was a cheaper version of hq-9, now fd2000 also has a cheaper version, we do make them work hard at times



With same capabilities? why not just get the production line of those cheap SAMs ...

About RD-93MA looks like PAC/CAC could have problem with exports therefore it could have been shelved in favor of WS series Engine that is in works.


----------



## shaheenmissile

Donatello said:


> Yea, that's what i was thinking, it's too poor to be true. Probably a typo. Once the order goes ahead, as usual we will know more.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe they would still be used by PAF, as Navy hardly has the expertise or the budget to allocate for these new assets. They are quite occupied with the P3Cs, and as such should focus on what Navy really does : get more ships, and submarines with SLCM capability.


Navy relies on UAVs for maritime survaillance.


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## Bossman

shaheenmissile said:


> Navy relies on UAVs for maritime survaillance.


 
and the range of those UAV are? Also why do they have P3Cs and other surveillance aircrafts?


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## Rashid Mahmood

P-3Cs are the mainstay for Maritime Surveillance, ASW, OTHT and ASV for the PN.


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## Dazzler

orangzaib said:


> That's for sure, a cheaper version will hopefully be just as capable? Also, could you double check with your source on 9 engagements? and the full track while scan count for the ZDK-03 platform? This number looks awful to be honest, for such a large jet to fly, operators, fuel and maintenance cost, vs. the capability. I think there may have been something missing from the picture.....



persumably it is in 80-100km class but has few modes trimmed to reduce cost. either way, if inducted, it should give the adversary a second thought on surgical strike rhetoric.



Luftwaffe said:


> About RD-93MA looks like PAC/CAC could have problem with exports therefore it could have been shelved in favor of WS series Engine that is in works.



MA is pretty much an option for jft, along with ws-13, regardless whether paf opts for it or not. customers who would want it, get it. russia designed it exclusively for export

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## Luftwaffe

Dazzler said:


> MA is pretty much an option for jft, along with ws-13, regardless whether paf opts for it or not. customers who would want it, get it. russia designed it exclusively for export



Thanks for Info.


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## Donatello

Ozair Akhtar said:


> IS PAF more happy with Chinese AEW&Cs? If yes. They why not sell 3-4 Saab-2000s to Oman or Jordan and Buys new 4-5 AEW&Cs???



Yes they are happy and no they will not sell SAAB 2000s because F-16s will be linked with them. Jordan doesn't really have money and Oman can get what they want.


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## Mughal-Prince

thrilainmanila said:


> but do we still have the eyerie or did all 3 get destroyed



At least one destroyed completely and another may be beyond repairable condition where as 3rd is Safe ...
So the one with beyond repairable condition may have give an insight to learn about it and improve at Chinese version just my thought


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## HRK

Ozair Akhtar said:


> Jordan must sell out their F-5s to TuAF and F-16s to PAF and join JF-17 program or KFX. More over better for them to buy Saab-2000 AEW&Cs and UAVs in good number with proper Air and Surface Defence rather than fighter at the moment.



I suggest to @WebMaster to introduce a simley to honour our one and only member "Nishan_101" for his great services and contribution to this forum 

BTW that simley should be named "Nishan_101 alert" .....


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## mosu

HRK said:


> I suggest to @WebMaster to introduce a simley to honour our one and only member "Nishan_101" for his great services and contribution to this forum
> 
> BTW that simley should be named "Nishan_101 alert" .....


Hahaha u r right brother


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## thrilainmanila

princeiftikharmirza said:


> At least one destroyed completely and another may be beyond repairable condition where as 3rd is Safe ...
> So the one with beyond repairable condition may have give an insight to learn about it and improve at Chinese version just my thought


Do you think the zdk03 or some other chinese AWAC can fill the gap of the 2 lost saab 2000s? from the sounds of it the zdk03 doesn't seem all that bad.


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## syed_yusuf

Correction - 1 lost Erieye


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## Capt.Popeye

syed_yusuf said:


> Correction - 1 lost Erieye



Another Correction: One Erieye burnt to cinders and one BER.

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## Chak Bamu

Capt.Popeye said:


> Another Correction: One Erieye burnt to cinders and one BER.



You seem too confident. Were you at the funeral pyre?

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## fatman17

time to close this insane discussion.


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## Capt.Popeye

Chak Bamu said:


> You seem too confident. Were you at the funeral pyre?



Nope.
Did'nt need to be there................................................................since somebody else volunteered to do the 'last rites'.

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## Capt.Popeye

@Chak Bamu; would you recognise the facts even if they stared you in the face?

Don't take just my word about the extent of the damage. 
Do check with the manufacturers of the aircraft(s). Since the Owners may never be forthcoming with the facts.
As for me; I stand by my assertion on the facts, however uncomfortable they may seem to some. 
It was not in the air.


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## shaheenmissile

I come here for technical and meaningful discussions. What type of troll fest is going on between a Moderator and an elite member? This is shameful.


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## syed_yusuf

Capt.Popeye said:


> Another Correction: One Erieye burnt to cinders and one BER.


Correction only 1 lost 

3 are airtight

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## Basel

Can anybody tell me what happened to this news??

*Quote:*

Pakistan – E-2C Hawkeye 2000 Airborne Early Warning Suite for P-3s

WASHINGTON, December 07, 2006 - The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for refurbishment and modification of three excess P-3 aircraft with the E-2C HAWKEYE 2000 Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Suite, as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $855million. 

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale for refurbishment and modification of three excess P-3 aircraft with the E-2C HAWKEYE 2000 Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Suite, spare and repairs parts, simulators, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, system software development and installation, ground/flight testing of new systems and system modifications, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $855 million. 

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been and continues to be an important force for economic progress in South Asia and a partner in the global war on terrorism. The command-and-control capabilities of these aircraft will improve Pakistan’s ability to restrict the littoral movement of terrorists along Pakistan’s southern border and ensure Pakistan’s overall ability to maintain integrity of its borders. 

Pakistan intends to use the proposed equipment to develop an effective air defense network for its naval forces and provide an AEW surveillance and enhanced command, control, and communications capability. The addition of the AEW suites will provide Pakistan with search surveillance, and control capability in support of maritime interdiction operations. These aircraft will also increase Pakistan’s ability to support the U.S. Operation Enduring Freedom operations, and provide anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare capabilities; and a control capability over land against transnational terrorists and narcotics smugglers. The modernization will enhance the capabilities of the Pakistani Navy and support its regional influence and meet its legitimate self-defense needs. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing the AEW platform into its armed forces. 

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not affect the basic military balance in the region. The prime contractor will be Northrop Grumman Corporation, St. Augustine, Florida and Lockheed-Martin, Greenville, South Carolina. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any U.S. Government and contractor representatives to Pakistan. There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale. This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded.

*Unquote:

E-2c Hawkeye 2000 Airborne Early Warning Suite For P-3s - Navy Forum - Pakistani Defence Forum
*
Did we get them or deal was cancelled??


----------



## Viper0011.

syed_yusuf said:


> Correction only 1 lost
> 3 are airtight


My understanding is 1 lost, 1 damaged (airframe) but sensors were salvageable. These will probably be going on another SAAB platform that Pakistan initially acquired for Testing, etc, or they'll find another refurbished platform to host sensors on.


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## Viper0011.

Basel said:


> Can anybody tell me what happened to this news??
> Pakistan – E-2C Hawkeye 2000 Airborne Early Warning Suite for P-3s



If I remember a discussion correctly with a previous Pak gov't official, this didn't go through as Pakistan decided towards the Chinese ZDK-03 option. One reason was cost of course, the second was that Pakistan was hoping to somehow get TOT for these as these were built primarily for Pakistan's use and they were customized (2 AESA's vs. 3 standard in the Chinese AWACS).
ZDK-03 apparently has a strong maritime capability in addition to land and over the horizon scanning capability and of course, the integration with the JFT. Due to its maritime capability, you'll see it a lot around Karachi for PN related ops. However, I personally believe ZDK-03 to be inferior to the Hawkeye and the Erieye.

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## Dazzler

orangzaib said:


> If I remember a discussion correctly with a previous Pak gov't official, this didn't go through as Pakistan decided towards the Chinese ZDK-03 option. One reason was cost of course, the second was that Pakistan was hoping to somehow get TOT for these as these were built primarily for Pakistan's use and they were customized (2 AESA's vs. 3 standard in the Chinese AWACS).
> ZDK-03 apparently has a strong maritime capability in addition to land and over the horizon scanning capability and of course, the integration with the JFT. Due to its maritime capability, you'll see it a lot around Karachi for PN related ops. However, I personally believe ZDK-03 to be inferior to the Hawkeye and the Erieye.




Four aircraft @ 278 million $, the cost/ performance ratio that ZKD-03 brings, is a bargain. More improvements at a fraction of cost increment, as envisaged by both PAF and CETC officials, considering the fourth plane radar and sensor improvements, it offers some advantages that Swedes could never provide.


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## VelocuR

Does China engineers have deep experiences or more knowledge on Erieye, E-2 Hawkeye, or Russia A-50? How reliable ?

I want to ask because we spent money on Chinese AWACs quality.


----------



## dexter



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## shaheenmissile

dexter said:


>




This one is dead...................


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## dexter

shaheenmissile said:


> This one is dead...................



Thats not confirmed yet


----------



## Bratva

shaheenmissile said:


> This one is dead...................



Check Alan warnes latest article 10025 is alive.


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## shaheenmissile

Bratva said:


> Check Alan warnes latest article 10025 is alive.


Any links?
If true then we have two confirmed erieyes alive.
10025 and 10040


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## Bratva

shaheenmissile said:


> Any links?
> If true then we have two confirmed erieyes alive.
> 10025 and 10040




My bad, it was 10040, not 10025


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## Mughal-Prince

thrilainmanila said:


> Do you think the zdk03 or some other chinese AWAC can fill the gap of the 2 lost saab 2000s? from the sounds of it the zdk03 doesn't seem all that bad.



I believe yes because we didn't see any fuss at our side to buy more copies of Saab's and when it comes to ZDK03 I believe all of this Chinese AWACS technology linked to Israel under the table or how they would be able to master it in such a short period of time. That is absolutely right that US of A didn't allow Israel to sale their AWACS to china but they have no control over them if they transfer the technology secretly or even assist them to make one.

Just my thoughts from previous experience . They need money for dirty work and viola they have some pretty legitimate technology to sale and buyers are keen to buy their tech.


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## SBD-3

Just witnessed a ZDK-03 flying over Clifton. May be shifting from Faisal to Masroor, my cell was in my training bag plus I was parking my car so couldn't capture the scene. But I noticed one thing, the dome appeared to be stationary, not rotating.


----------



## monitor

> Saab 2000 of PAF:
> 
> J-019 (training/Liaison) 1st to be delivered in '08
> 
> 10049 (Erieye) Del 09
> 
> 10025 (Erieye) Del '10 (destroyed)
> 
> 10040 (Erieye) Del '10
> 
> 10045 (Erieye) Del '11
> 10027 (Erieye configured) Never bought '09
> 
> 10031 (Erieye configured) Never bought '09


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## Viper0011.

princeiftikharmirza said:


> I believe yes because we didn't see any fuss at our side to buy more copies of Saab's and when it comes to ZDK03 I believe all of this Chinese AWACS technology linked to Israel under the table or how they would be able to master it in such a short period of time. *That is absolutely right that US of A didn't allow Israel to sale their AWACS to china but they have no control over them if they transfer the technology secretly or even assist them to make one.*.



Before the US really put its foot down and stopped the Israelis, they had already been working with the Chinese for years on these projects. So a LOT of know how and technical things had been discussed and I am sure some designs even shared. So its not illogical to guess that these techs link up to Israeli and US tech in some capacity although built with Chinese technology infrastructure. The J-10 is considered an advanced copy of Israel's Lavi project from the same era and so are a couple of Chinese UAV designs.


----------



## araz

Basel said:


> Can anybody tell me what happened to this news??
> 
> *Quote:*
> 
> Pakistan – E-2C Hawkeye 2000 Airborne Early Warning Suite for P-3s
> 
> WASHINGTON, December 07, 2006 - The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for refurbishment and modification of three excess P-3 aircraft with the E-2C HAWKEYE 2000 Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Suite, as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $855million.
> 
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale for refurbishment and modification of three excess P-3 aircraft with the E-2C HAWKEYE 2000 Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Suite, spare and repairs parts, simulators, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, system software development and installation, ground/flight testing of new systems and system modifications, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $855 million.
> 
> This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been and continues to be an important force for economic progress in South Asia and a partner in the global war on terrorism. The command-and-control capabilities of these aircraft will improve Pakistan’s ability to restrict the littoral movement of terrorists along Pakistan’s southern border and ensure Pakistan’s overall ability to maintain integrity of its borders.
> 
> Pakistan intends to use the proposed equipment to develop an effective air defense network for its naval forces and provide an AEW surveillance and enhanced command, control, and communications capability. The addition of the AEW suites will provide Pakistan with search surveillance, and control capability in support of maritime interdiction operations. These aircraft will also increase Pakistan’s ability to support the U.S. Operation Enduring Freedom operations, and provide anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare capabilities; and a control capability over land against transnational terrorists and narcotics smugglers. The modernization will enhance the capabilities of the Pakistani Navy and support its regional influence and meet its legitimate self-defense needs. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing the AEW platform into its armed forces.
> 
> The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not affect the basic military balance in the region. The prime contractor will be Northrop Grumman Corporation, St. Augustine, Florida and Lockheed-Martin, Greenville, South Carolina. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any U.S. Government and contractor representatives to Pakistan. There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale. This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded.
> 
> *Unquote:
> 
> E-2c Hawkeye 2000 Airborne Early Warning Suite For P-3s - Navy Forum - Pakistani Defence Forum
> *
> Did we get them or deal was cancelled??


Never happened.
Araz

@monitor.
Please give credit to the poster whose post you have copied.
It is the courteous thing to do.
araz


----------



## monitor

araz said:


> Never happened.
> Araz
> 
> 
> @monitor.
> Please give credit to the poster whose post you have copied.
> It is the courteous thing to do.
> araz



yes i should i always did that but this time forget to do that  any way it was from H khan from pakdef, could not edit as time passed

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## hassan1

saab 2000 in KSA

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## nomi007

Bird hit with zdk-03




video proof




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152508745802663

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## Bratva

nomi007 said:


> Bird hit with zdk-03
> View attachment 113532
> 
> video proof
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152508745802663



@Oscar @fatman17 When did that happen ?


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## SQ8

Bratva said:


> @Oscar @fatman17 When did that happen ?



Continues to happen on a regular basis. Its based near the sea and near a major city, which means seagulls, kites.. and all other birds are a constant hazard.

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## N/A

Hi sorry to be a little off topic but my goal is to protect and serve Pakistan as a officer in the Pakistan air force as a GDP. Currently i live and study in the United States. I lived in the USA all my live, i am a pakistani citizen. I am currently in high school, my grades are above average, my grades are 84-95 i take many advance classes. I am part of many sports teams and i am currently a class officer. After i gradaute high school i will be getting my degree from a American College in Aerospace Engineering. After that what will i have to do to become a GDP as a officer in the Pakistan Air Force.


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## Reichmarshal

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> Hi sorry to be a little off topic but my goal is to protect and serve Pakistan as a officer in the Pakistan air force as a GDP. Currently i live and study in the United States. I lived in the USA all my live, i am a pakistani citizen. I am currently in high school, my grades are above average, my grades are 84-95 i take many advance classes. I am part of many sports teams and i am currently a class officer. After i gradaute high school i will be getting my degree from a American College in Aerospace Engineering. After that what will i have to do to become a GDP as a officer in the Pakistan Air Force.



Apply to join the PAF
Go to the website


----------



## Mughal-Prince

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> Hi sorry to be a little off topic but my goal is to protect and serve Pakistan as a officer in the Pakistan air force as a GDP. Currently i live and study in the United States. I lived in the USA all my live, i am a pakistani citizen. I am currently in high school, my grades are above average, my grades are 84-95 i take many advance classes. I am part of many sports teams and i am currently a class officer. After i gradaute high school i will be getting my degree from a American College in Aerospace Engineering. After that what will i have to do to become a GDP as a officer in the Pakistan Air Force.



After getting your degree in Aerospace (Undergraduate) you wants to join Air Force as a GDP :-/ ??? Why ??? You can work even in a better way by becoming a useful resource in Some specific field of Aerospace Engineering and then join some Industry like AMF or something !!! We need good resource in Aerospace field.


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## kaku1

Reichmarshal said:


> Apply to join the PAF
> Go to the website



PAF accept the application who are not even Pak citizens, Amazing?


----------



## TheNoob

kaku1 said:


> PAF accept the application who are not even Pak citizens, Amazing?


he lives and study there. a Pakistani Citizen, as stated by him....

Lets suppose he has a dual nationality, he'll have to give up on the other one to join the Armed forces.


----------



## Donatello

kaku1 said:


> PAF accept the application who are not even Pak citizens, Amazing?



Pakistan allows dual nationals. However, upon signing up you have to give up your other citizenship.


----------



## Zarvan

Have all 4 AWACS from China delivered to us ?


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## kaku1

Donatello said:


> Pakistan allows dual nationals. However, upon signing up you have to give up your other citizenship.



Dual Citizenship? Means a Pak origin British/American Citizen can buy property, able to vote , or apply for civil services?

Thats ridiculous, what about a person who born in Pak, serve for Pak, and ready to die for Pak. Why cutting his chances?


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## Donatello

kaku1 said:


> Dual Citizenship? Means a Pak origin British/American Citizen can buy property, able to vote , or apply for civil services?
> 
> Thats ridiculous, what about a person who born in Pak, serve for Pak, and ready to die for Pak. Why cutting his chances?



A Pakistani citizen is a Pakistani citizen. Many nations allowed dual nationality, Britain, France, Canada, USA etc....heck even the neutral Switzerland.

It's not about cutting chances. You are good enough on merit, you get selected. Simple.


----------



## kaku1

Donatello said:


> A Pakistani citizen is a Pakistani citizen. Many nations allowed dual nationality, Britain, France, Canada, USA etc....heck even the neutral Switzerland.
> 
> It's not about cutting chances. You are good enough on merit, you get selected. Simple.


These are foreign citizen bro, with foreign passport living in a foreign country. How they are even Pakistani? 

Even why they have right to vote?


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## Donatello

kaku1 said:


> These are foreign citizen bro, with foreign passport living in a foreign country. How they are even Pakistani?
> 
> Even why they have right to vote?



A lot of the times people are born in Pakistan, they immigrate, get another citizenship. Sometimes, a kid is born to Pakistani parents in US, for example. At birth he is US citizen, but due to his parents lineage, he can apply for Pakistani nationality as well, for example if his parents move back to Pakistan for work, living etc (happens a lot of the times) So the kid ends up spending most of his life in Pakistan, but is technically US citizen. You cannot deny him the application to armed forces. He can apply, and if he does get selected, he has to surrender his US citizenship.


----------



## kaku1

Donatello said:


> A lot of the times people are born in Pakistan, they immigrate, get another citizenship. Sometimes, a kid is born to Pakistani parents in US, for example. At birth he is US citizen, but due to his parents lineage, he can apply for Pakistani nationality as well, for example if his parents move back to Pakistan for work, living etc (happens a lot of the times) So the kid ends up spending most of his life in Pakistan, but is technically US citizen. You cannot deny him the application to armed forces. He can apply, and if he does get selected, he has to surrender his US citizenship.



Bro, I understand, but he has to surrender foreign passport after selection.

But if we take conditions in india, before doing anything he has to surrender foreign passport. The PIO cant vote, cant apply for any services.

Even, before Sept 2014, a PIO have to contact Indian High Commission for Indian Visa, they cant travel in India without visa.


----------



## Donatello

kaku1 said:


> Bro, I understand, but he has to surrender foreign passport after selection.
> 
> But if we take conditions in india, before doing anything he has to surrender foreign passport. The PIO cant vote, cant apply for any services.
> 
> *Even, before Sept 2014, a PIO have to contact Indian High Commission for Indian Visa, they cant travel in India without visa.*



That is i believe, because India doesn't allow dual nationality. So if a person becomes a citizen of another country, then he surrenders his passport, right?

And if he doesn't have Indian passport, then of course he cannot get Indian entry, regardless of whether he was Indian citizen before or not.

It is same with Pakistan. A lot of people who become naturalized citizens of another country, and don't renew their Pakistani passport (just because they don't care anymore) then if they need to visit Pakistan, they need to get Pakistani visa. 

I remember my dad's elder brother is Canadian citizen, He gave up on renewing his Pakistani passport, so now eveytime he visits Pakistan, he has to get visa from Pakistan consulate in Canada.


F**ked up, right?


----------



## kaku1

Donatello said:


> That is i believe, because India doesn't allow dual nationality. So if a person becomes a citizen of another country, then he surrenders his passport, right?
> 
> And if he doesn't have Indian passport, then of course he cannot get Indian entry, regardless of whether he was Indian citizen before or not.
> 
> It is same with Pakistan. A lot of people who become naturalized citizens of another country, and don't renew their Pakistani passport (just because they don't care anymore) then if they need to visit Pakistan, they need to get Pakistani visa.
> 
> I remember my dad's elder brother is Canadian citizen, He gave up on renewing his Pakistani passport, so now eveytime he visits Pakistan, he has to get visa from Pakistan consulate in Canada.
> 
> 
> F**ked up, right?



In my relatives, who are outside India, all are NRI, no one is PIO. So, dont know about that much.


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## Deltaviper

kaku1 said:


> In my relatives, who are outside India, all are NRI, no one is PIO. So, dont know about that much.


Respected fellows,
Please come back to the topic.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## Dazzler

Deltaviper said:


> Respected fellows,
> Please come back to the topic.
> Thanks in advance.


masroor...








mushaf...

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## Inception-06

mods delate this post pls, I did post in the wrong topic-sorry-Error


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## IrbiS




----------



## kaku1

Dazzler said:


> masroor...
> 
> 
> View attachment 137938
> 
> 
> mushaf...
> 
> View attachment 137939



Amazing. This isnt a Security Violation.


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## nomi007




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## shaheenmissile

Dazzler said:


> masroor...
> 
> 
> View attachment 137938
> 
> 
> mushaf...
> 
> View attachment 137939


I notice that the radar disc is always in the same position when plane is landed. White stripe facing longitidinally. And white stripe facing transverse when ship is flying. The radar may not be mechanically steered beam,but electronically steered.


----------



## SQ8

shaheenmissile said:


> I notice that the radar disc is always in the same position when plane is landed. White stripe facing longitidinally. And white stripe facing transverse when ship is flying. The radar may not be mechanically steered beam,but electronically steered.



When landed it goes back to a locked position.. When not transmitting it rotates slowly to keep the bearings lubricated.. and spins faster when transmitting.


----------



## Donatello

shaheenmissile said:


> I notice that the radar disc is always in the same position when plane is landed. White stripe facing longitidinally. And white stripe facing transverse when ship is flying. The radar may not be mechanically steered beam,but electronically steered.



It is electronically steered, but in elevation, not azimuth.


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## nomi007

Dazzler said:


> masroor...
> 
> 
> View attachment 137938
> 
> 
> mushaf...
> 
> View attachment 137939


*such types of images by Google earth is serious thread paf need to take them serious *

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## shaheenmissile

That means long gaps between successive sweeps as a mechanically steered royodome will take time to sweep the same target twice. To find out the speed and course of the target multiple sweeps are required and any change in directio speed or course of target will be detected after long delay due to mechanically steeted rotodome.


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## Dazzler

shaheenmissile said:


> That means long gaps between successive sweeps as a mechanically steered royodome will take time to sweep the same target twice. To find out the speed and course of the target multiple sweeps are required and any change in directio speed or course of target will be detected after long delay due to mechanically steeted rotodome.



6-8 rpm a minute iz not bad



kaku1 said:


> Amazing. This isnt a Security Violation.



this can be answered by google


----------



## Donatello

Dazzler said:


> masroor...
> 
> 
> View attachment 137938
> 
> 
> mushaf...
> 
> View attachment 137939



What are they doing? Photoshoot for Google all over Pakistan?


----------



## razgriz19

Donatello said:


> That is i believe, because India doesn't allow dual nationality. So if a person becomes a citizen of another country, then he surrenders his passport, right?
> 
> And if he doesn't have Indian passport, then of course he cannot get Indian entry, regardless of whether he was Indian citizen before or not.
> 
> It is same with Pakistan. A lot of people who become naturalized citizens of another country, and don't renew their Pakistani passport (just because they don't care anymore) then if they need to visit Pakistan, they need to get Pakistani visa.
> 
> *I remember my dad's elder brother is Canadian citizen, He gave up on renewing his Pakistani passport, so now eveytime he visits Pakistan, he has to get visa from Pakistan consulate in Canada.*
> 
> 
> F**ked up, right?



There is this thing called NICOP. Its basically an ID card which allows you to travel to Pakistan. I have a Canadian passport and NICOP as well


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## nomi007

*ZKD-03 AEW Aircraft Model in 2014 Zhuhai Air Show*
*






















is china is finding more customers of zdk-03 ?*

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## Bratva

@Dazzler @Oscar Found a profile on linkedin of a talented PAC engineer. He worked on some interesting things 

*Project Manager Aircraft Systems Integration*

*MoD
*
December 2005 – February 2010 (4 years 3 months)Pakistan Aeronautical Complex

• I worked as Project Manager Aircraft Systems Integration in a Program Management Office (PMO) which was entrusted the task of Project Management, Contract handling, Product development, commissioning, testing and final acceptance of AWACS Systems from two different OEMs M/s Saab, Sweden & M/s CETC, China

• Finalized technical specifications of Radar, EW and Communication Subsystems of AWACS Systems

• Participated in Product Design Reviews at OEM premises

• Developed Verification Matrices and Acceptance Criteria for Radar, EW & Communication Subsystems of Saab Surveillance System (SSS)

• Conducted Factory Acceptance Tests (FAT) of various Subsystems of SSS

• Participated in Command & Control (C2) Review sessions of SSS

• Lead the team that performed the induction, commissioning and Site Acceptance Tests (SAT) of first five sets of Ground Entry 
Stations (GES) of Saab Surveillance System (SSS)

• Participated in EW System MMI Review sessions as EW expert from MoD

• Finalized IP Network requirements for integration of SSS and ZDK-03 Chinese AWACS with user’s ADGE network

• Participated as technical expert of Radar, EW and Communication Subsystems during evaluation trials of Chinese ZDK-03 
AWACS

*Avionics Systems Engineer
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex
*
March 2010 – Present (4 years 9 months)Avionics Systems Integration Facility at PAC

I am currently working in Avionics Systems Integration &Test Facility at PAC as Avionics Systems Engineer. My core responsibilities are:

• Performing customer requirements capture, analysis and test of avionics systems comprising of hardware & software, electronic and mechanical subsystems

• Developing Avionics Systems Architecture and Integration Schemes 

• Defining and preparing system-level requirements and allocating them to subsystem design teams (software, hardware, mechanical) 

• Preparing and reviewing systems documentation, including requirement, design, test procedure, and verification documents

• Preparing Requirement Specifications and Interface Control Documentation

• Preparing System Models in IBM Rhapsody using SysML during Requirements Analysis Phase to Validate the High Level Customer Requirements

• Preparing Acceptance Test Specifications (ATS) and Acceptance Test Procedure (ATP) documents for verification of Implemented Design

• Testing of Integrated Avionics System on Dynamic Simulation and Integration Rigs

• Safety Assessment Process implementation inline with ARP 4761

• Qualification of Avionics System 

• Quantitative Analysis of MIL-STD-1553 data

• On Aircraft Verification & Testing of Avionics Subsystems


Projects he worked on.

*Integration Design for an Indigenous Tactical Data Link on a Fighter Aircraft*

February 2012

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## Bratva

nomi007 said:


> *ZKD-03 AEW Aircraft Model in 2014 Zhuhai Air Show*
> *
> View attachment 151524
> View attachment 151525
> View attachment 151526
> View attachment 151527
> View attachment 151528
> View attachment 151529
> View attachment 151531
> is china is finding more customers of zdk-03 ?*




ELINT system installed in ZDK-03

CETC KZ800 Airborne Electronic Intelligence System

The KZ800 is a computerised airborne electronic intelligence (ELINT) system designed to be installed on medium- to large-size aircraft to detect, identify and locate hostile land-based or shipborne radar emitters operating within frequency band 1.0-18.0GHz, and accurately measure and analyse the intercepted signal parameters. The analysis of the aforesaid radar information can provide key information on the configurations of hostile air defense radar networks, the distribution of enemy operational airports, and the deployment of enemy artillery and missile troops.

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## Dazzler

Bratva said:


> ELINT system installed in ZDK-03
> 
> CETC KZ800 Airborne Electronic Intelligence System
> 
> The KZ800 is a computerised airborne electronic intelligence (ELINT) system designed to be installed on medium- to large-size aircraft to detect, identify and locate hostile land-based or shipborne radar emitters operating within frequency band 1.0-18.0GHz, and accurately measure and analyse the intercepted signal parameters. The analysis of the aforesaid radar information can provide key information on the configurations of hostile air defense radar networks, the distribution of enemy operational airports, and the deployment of enemy artillery and missile troops.
> 
> View attachment 151979


thats the original kz-800, the one on zdk is a newer model, a hybrid type with chinese kj-2000 module influence.

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## nomi007

*Egyptian Air Force (EAF)* may be the 1st customer of zdk-03 with jf-17 thunder


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## nomi007

*ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle
ZDK-03* (Y-8CS?) is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (S/N T0518/Y-8CE) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike *KJ-200*, this variant carries a traditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. *The PESA radar is thought to scan electronically in elevation but mechanically in azimuth*. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than *KJ-200* which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar may have been the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose and tail with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as small vertical stabilizers attached to its tailplanes. Another two MAWS sensors are attached to the tailcone as well. Additional fairings are seen at the wingtips and the tail housing ESM antennas. The Y-8 AWACS prototype flew to Pakistan and was evaluated by Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now named *ZDK-03* (_ZDK_ means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade high efficiency propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m contract. The first *ZDK-03* prototype rolled out in November 2010 at SAC. Since then it has been undergoing test at CFTE (S/N 733). *ZDK-03* is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the *JF-17* fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore *ZDK-03* operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The first *ZDK-03* (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 11-002) was delivered some time later. The third *ZDK-03* (12-003) was delivered in 2013.

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## fatman17



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## nomi007

*where is ZDK-03* (S/N 11-004)


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## Krate M

@nomi007 interesting information in the post. If that's an article can you post the link please.

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## The Deterrent

The fourth ZDK-03 has been based at Mushaf Air Base (Sargodha) as a new shelter/hangar (similar to the 3 hangars built at Masroor AFB) has been constructed for it at Mushaf AFB.


----------



## kaku1

The Deterrent said:


> The fourth ZDK-03 is based at Mushaf Air Base, Sargodha. A new shelter/hangar (similar to the 3 hangars built at Masroor AFB) has been constructed for it.



When I read first time your sentence, I thought it is Musharaf AFB, lol.

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## HRK

ZDK-03


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> *where is ZDK-03* (S/N 11-004)


 
attachment is of 11-001


----------



## IrbiS



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## Krate M

nomi007 said:


> However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore *ZDK-03* operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively.


Where do the mirages go, are they linked with Saab aewc or are they linked with zdk 03? Or are they not directly linked with aewc, but are guided by the ground based system.


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## IrbiS

Krate M said:


> Where do the mirages go, are they linked with Saab aewc or are they linked with zdk 03? Or are they not directly linked with aewc, but are guided by the ground based system.


There are no such ambitions for Mirages they need to be retired, they don't even have BVR and mostly do ground missions, there's no need for them to be data-linked.


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## Krate M

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> There are no such ambitions for Mirages they need to be retired, they don't even have BVR and mostly do ground missions, there's no need for them to be data-linked.


Rose mirage are bvr capable and will serve till enough jf17 are available, with the priority being to retire f7 and older mirages


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## SQ8

Krate M said:


> Rose mirage are bvr capable and will serve till enough jf17 are available, with the priority being to retire f7 and older mirages



ROSE-I with 7th sq bandits at Masroor at Karachi are BVR capable. Those with ROSE-II are at Rafiqui. The Mirages are the PAF's "testbed" so to speak and usually get kitted and tested out first for new systems.

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## Krate M

Oscar said:


> ROSE-I with 7th sq bandits at Masroor at Karachi are BVR capable. Those with ROSE-II are at Rafiqui. The Mirages are the PAF's "testbed" so to speak and usually get kitted and tested out first for new systems.


Thanks for the info but doesn't answer my question about which system they communicate with.


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## SQ8

Krate M said:


> Thanks for the info but doesn't answer my question about which system they communicate with.


Certain clues are available on this forum on what is being developed or is in progress. However, All ROSE mirages, along with the F-7PGs are currently running this system.. So how they communicate should be answered by looking at that system.

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## Krate M

@Oscar so probably they would be either Chinese systems or through ground control.


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## IrbiS

Krate M said:


> Thanks for the info but doesn't answer my question about which system they communicate with.


They are capable to carry but don't carry bvr. GCI is used.


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## nomi007

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> View attachment 158386


bhai pehle question to mar lete

The first *ZDK-03* *(S/N 11-001)* was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd *(S/N 11-002)* was delivered some time later. The third *ZDK-03* (12-003) was delivered in 2013.
when will 4th *ZDK-03* (12-004) will deliver?.
001




002




003




004

????????

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## IrbiS

nomi007 said:


> bhai pehle question to mar lete
> 
> The first *ZDK-03* *(S/N 11-001)* was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd *(S/N 11-002)* was delivered some time later. The third *ZDK-03* (12-003) was delivered in 2013.
> when will 4th *ZDK-03* (12-004) will deliver?.
> 001
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 002
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 003
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 004
> 
> ????????


Yaar it's not ZDK-03. If you care to read it, you 'll know that it's brand new chinese KJ-500 project with 3 fixed AESAs in static Dome.


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## SQ8

Krate M said:


> @Oscar so probably they would be either Chinese systems or through ground control.



Not Chinese systems. The same firm operates both in India and in Pakistan.


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## The Deterrent

nomi007 said:


> The first *ZDK-03* *(S/N 11-001)* was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd *(S/N 11-002)* was delivered some time later. The third *ZDK-03* (12-003) was delivered in 2013.
> when will 4th *ZDK-03* (12-004) will deliver?.


It has already been delivered, the fourth ZDK-03 and its hangar has been set up at Mushaf Airbase (Sargodha) as seen in the latest Google Earth imagery.


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Not Chinese systems. The same firm operates both in India and in Pakistan.



R&S?


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## Bratva

The Deterrent said:


> It has already been delivered, the fourth ZDK-03 and its hangar has been set up at Mushaf Airbase (Sargodha) as seen in the latest Google Earth imagery.



Which hangar is for ZDK-03. 

this







or this







and btw

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## The Deterrent

Bratva said:


> Which hangar is for ZDK-03.
> 
> this
> 
> 
> or this


Neither 
Here it is, looks like the same ones constructed at Masroor AB for 3 ZDK-03s:

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## IrbiS

nomi007 said:


> bhai pehle question to mar lete
> 
> The first *ZDK-03* *(S/N 11-001)* was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd *(S/N 11-002)* was delivered some time later. The third *ZDK-03* (12-003) was delivered in 2013.
> when will 4th *ZDK-03* (12-004) will deliver?.
> 
> 
> 004
> 
> ????????


That's the one you've been looking for :

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## nomi007

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> That's the one you've been looking for :
> View attachment 158834


no see tail number


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## IrbiS

nomi007 said:


> no see tail number


13-003 if my eyes are working. I believed this one wasn't in those 3 pics you posted earlier, so it should be the 4th one.


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## nwmalik

please don't disclose locations and other information which may be used by terrorists.

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## Super Falcon

Is zdk as good as our erieye awacs how much detection range it has looks like hawkeye in pic


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## hassan1



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## nomi007

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 164002
> 
> 
> View attachment 164004


o bhai is tara ki pic upload mat karo
its national security issue


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## Bratva

nomi007 said:


> o bhai is tara ki pic upload mat karo
> its national security issue



Bhai, Are you OK? It's not a national security issue. Stop being a dumb childish. FYI, The date of such google maps are August 2013. These are year old maps and it's public info.

When you can see and share Area-51 and F-22 raptor locations on Google map than seeing AEWC is not a big deal. !


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## nomi007

Bratva said:


> Bhai, Are you OK? It's not a national security issue. Stop being a dumb childish. FYI, The date of such google maps are August 2013. These are year old maps and it's public info.
> 
> When you can see and share Area-51 and F-22 raptor locations on Google map than seeing AEWC is not a big deal. !


o bhai usa aur pakistan ki security issues different hain
2nd with in 1 year we did not change so much


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## hassan1



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## nomi007

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 178102
> View attachment 178103


post in Saudis airforce discussion

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## Ijaz Ahmad Zarrar

master_fx said:


> Just wondering, Is pakistan interested and in needs of acquiring a few AWACS?
> 
> Note from Admin: This thread is now a thread to discuss *Comparison & Analysis of Pakistans AWACs Capability.* Keep things down and mature for discussion.
> 
> Cheers.


of course this is the need of hour...

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## hassan1



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## Inception-06

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 178102
> View attachment 178103




wrong Topic, this are saudi forces, cant you read ? what is written on the plane ?

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## Imran Khan



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## DANGER-ZONE

Imran Khan said:


>



*Ab k hum bichray to shayad kabar-khanoon main milay.*

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## nomi007

4th zdk-03 is in china under testing

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## syed_yusuf

is the 4th one going to be ZDK-03 or ZDK-08?

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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> is the 4th one going to be ZDK-03 or ZDK-08?



What's a ZDK 08? and while we are on the subject can ZDK 03 carry out ELINT missions. ?

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## A2Z

syed_yusuf said:


> ZDK-08?


Which palne is this?

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## farhan_9909

4th(all?) ZDK-03 inducted into 4th squadron

Source:Geo news

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## PakShaheen79

This means No.4 has been re-activated.

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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> What's a ZDK 08? and while we are on the subject can ZDK 03 carry out ELINT missions. ?





Bratva said:


> ELINT system installed in ZDK-03
> 
> CETC KZ800 Airborne Electronic Intelligence System
> 
> The KZ800 is a computerised airborne electronic intelligence (ELINT) system designed to be installed on medium- to large-size aircraft to detect, identify and locate hostile land-based or shipborne radar emitters operating within frequency band 1.0-18.0GHz, and accurately measure and analyse the intercepted signal parameters. The analysis of the aforesaid radar information can provide key information on the configurations of hostile air defense radar networks, the distribution of enemy operational airports, and the deployment of enemy artillery and missile troops.
> 
> View attachment 151979

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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## Donatello

That thing looks an absolute beast. Hopefully, PAF will procure some more units.

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## hassan1




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## Imran Khan

now keep them save from taliban .last time same ceremony and then they took saab-2000

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## Bratva

Waiting patiently for @Najam Khan pics.

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## hassan1



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## SBD-3



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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> now keep them save from taliban .last time same ceremony and then they took saab-2000



Oye behave yourself.

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> Oye behave yourself.





*sir jee hum ne to sach bola bus *

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## A2Z

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 196817
> View attachment 196818
> View attachment 196819
> View attachment 196820


this is the 4th zdk-03, right?

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## Deino

To admit I'm a bit surprised ... I thought that type was already in service. Even more I'm surprised by the new designation KE-03 ... any idea what's the meaning of KE ??

Anyway congrats !

Deino

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## Bilal.

Deino said:


> To admit I'm a bit surprised ... I thought that type was already in service. Even more I'm surprised by the new designation KE-03 ... any idea what's the meaning of KE ??
> 
> Anyway congrats !
> 
> Deino




KE = karakorum eagle

On the other hand I have no idea what zdk means

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## fatman17

Bilal. said:


> KE = karakorum eagle
> 
> On the other hand I have no idea what zdk means



Chinese designation.

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## Bilal.

fatman17 said:


> Chinese designation.



Sir jee any update on NECOP which was supposed to indeginize and maintain CETC sourced electronics...

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## shaheenmissile



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## hassan1



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## ghazi52

Nice sharing .......................

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## nomi007

*Pakistan Re-equips Squadron With AEW&C Planes*

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan's Air Force (PAF) Thursday stood up its unit of Chinese Karakorum Eagle AEW&C aircraft in a ceremony attended by the head of the PAF, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt, and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

Though the exact location of the ceremony was not given, it is believed to have been held at PAF Base Masroor in Karachi as the prime minister was known to have been in the city that day.

Brian Cloughley, an analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, said AEW&C "is very good news for the PAF – and for Pakistan" because it "will dramatically improve early warning capabilities which up until now have been comparatively rudimentary."

The ZDK-03 Karakorum Eagle is a dish-based AEW&C system mounted on a Shaanxi Y-8F600 aircraft. Though never confirmed, it has been speculated that the dish houses an AESA antenna.

Four were ordered in 2008 with the first delivered in 2010.

Air Commodore Syed Muhammad Ali, a spokesman for the Air Force, confirmed all Karakorum Eagle aircraft on order have now been delivered, but could not say if more would be ordered from China.

The aircraft join No.4 Squadron, which was first established in 1959 with Bristol Freighter transports and Grumman HU-16 Albatross amphibians. The amphibians were used for maritime reconnaissance, search and rescue, and casualty evacuation alongside Sikorsky H-19D helicopters. The HU-16s were retired in 1968 and the H-19Ds in 1969.

The unit was then "number-plated" until officially re-equipped with the Karakorum Eagle.

The four Karakorum Eagle AEW&C aircraft join the surviving three Saab Erieye AEW&C aircraft ordered in 2005 and delivered from 2009. One of the four Erieye aircraft was destroyed in a terrorist attack on Kamra Air Base in August 2012.

That the Air Force operates two types of AEW&C aircraft for the same mission has been much commented on.

Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank says the Karakorum Eagle's mission is "*asically the same job as Erieye but based in southern sector.

"To cover all the length of Pakistan we needed additional AEW&C aircraft and ZDK-03 was the answer due to political and financial considerations," he said.

Former Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail says the PAF was not keen on their purchase.

"The [Karakorum] Eagle was purchased rather reluctantly, under pressure of [then President] Gen. Musharraf, as a political expedient [Chinese appeasement], and not because of any reasons of technical superiority," he said. "It would have been more cost effective to manage a single type than these two vastly different ones."

Though he now believes attitudes have changed.

"Having said that, the performance of the Eagle has turned out to be surprisingly good, which takes some sting out of the initial criticism," he said.

Tufail says an absence of news of the fourth aircraft being delivered may mean it is undergoing installation of Link 16 datalink equipment to enable it to communicate with all of the PAF's aircraft, particularly its F-16s, and not just the JF-17 Thunders.

To date the Erieye AEW&C aircraft have been able to communicate with the Western aircraft in service such as the F-16, and the Karakorum Eagle with the Chinese aircraft such as the Sino-Pak JF-17, and perhaps the F-7PG.

Cloughley does not think this has changed.

"It's unlikely that the systems will complement those of the US, but cooperation with China is more important for Pakistan," he said.

PAF officials have previously told Defense News that this was impractical and would change.

Though perhaps not as technologically advanced as the Swedish Erieye, according to Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, the two types of AEW&C aircraft have worked very well together with the installation of Link 16 compatible equipment throughout the PAF's aircraft fleet.

Combined, they have effectively covered the country and much of Pakistan's maritime area of interest.

Pakistan Re-equips Squadron With AEW&C Planes*

fourth is still in china
i already share 2 images of that
may be 4th will be more advance and equipped with link-16

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## nomi007

*Airborne early wonders: our Top 10 eyes in the sky*
By: Craig Hoyle
London
Source: Flightglobal.com
15:05 27 Feb 2015
In the week that Royal Australian Air Force officials hailed the performance of the service’s Boeing 737-based Wedgetail aircraft over Iraq, and as the UK draws closer to announcing a successor to its Westland Sea King 7 capability, our Top 10 looks at some of the unusual and rare types delivering the airborne early warning and control mission around the globe. Our listing is derived from data on in-service and on-order aircraft contained within Flightglobal’s Ascend Fleets andMiliCASdatabases.

1: Northrop Grumman E-2 Hawkeye – 96 (in service)






Rex Features

The most numerous AEW&C system type in use today, the E-2 Hawkeye is flown by the air arms of Egypt, Japan and Taiwan, and by the French and US navies as a carrier-based asset. We record these nations as having a combined 96 of the twin-engined type in active duty, while the US Navy has at least another 36 D-model examples to be delivered. The new version has an expanded capability to serve as an airborne battle management platform.

2: Boeing E-3 AWACS – 63






US Air Force

So synonymous with the role is Boeing’s E-3 that the phrase AWACS (airborne warning and control system) has become a widely used expression to describe any aircraft performing such a mission. With its distinctive above-fuselage radome, which houses a Northrop APY-1 or -2 surveillance radar, the Sentry is in use with the US Air Force – which has 31 – as well as international operators France, Saudi Arabia and the UK, which have a combined 15. A multinational NATO AWACS force also is equipped with 17 examples.

3: Ilyushin Il-76/Beriev A-50 – 29






AirTeamImages

MiliCAS records Russia’s air force operating a fleet of 21 Ilyushin Il-76-based Beriev A-50 AEW&C platforms. India also has an active inventory of three of the same type, with two more on order. China’s air force also used the Il-76 as the basis for its own system, named the KJ-2000, and has five in its fleet.

4: Kamov Ka-31 – 26






Russian Helicopters

Described as a “radar picket”, the ship- or land-based Ka-31 carries a deployable, rotating array beneath its fuselage, which allows its crew to scan an area around a navy’s surface fleet for airborne and maritime threats. The type is used only by the navies of China, India and Russia, with Ascend recording these as having a respective nine, 14 and three in service.

Airborne early wonders: our Top 10 eyes in the sky - 2/27/2015 - Flight Global

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## nomi007

5: Saab Erieye – 20






Saab

Our fifth-place entry is for a Swedish-developed mission system and radar which has so far been adapted for use aboard a trio of airframe types. Stockholm first developed the Erieye package for installation with the Saab 340 regional turboprop, which the Swedish air force flies as the Argus. It was also later adapted for the Embraer ERJ-145 and Saab 2000. A combined 20 AEW&C aircraft in these models are flown by Sweden, Brazil, Greece, Mexico, *Pakistan*, Thailand and the United Arab Emirates. A similar-looking antenna array has also been developed independently by India – and also mounted atop the ERJ-145.

6=: Boeing 737 – 13






Commonwealth of Australia

The 737-based AEW&C system is easily distinguishable from the narrowbody airliner due to its Northrop Grumman MESA active electronically scanned array, or “top hat”. Australia has the largest fleet, with six “Wedgetail” aircraft. One of these has been flying missions of up to 16h in duration during the nation’s Operation Okra contribution to the US-led campaign against Islamic State militants in Iraq and Syria. South Korea has received all four of its surveillance-roled 737s, while the Turkish air force has taken delivery of all but one of its eventually four-strong fleet. Ascend also records Qatar as interested in acquiring three.

6=: Shaanxi Y-8 – 13






Rex Features

With the same installed fleet size as the AEW&C-roled 737, China’s early-warning version of the Shaanxi Y-8 has the designation KJ-200 with the nation’s armed forces. Beijing’s air force has seven in use, and its navy three. *Pakistan’s* air force also has acquired three examples – with a fourth on order – and designates the type as the *ZDK-03*.

8: Westland Sea King 7 – 10






Crown Copyright

Nicknamed “baggers”, due to the inflatable housing containing the mechanically scanned array for the type’s Thales Searchwater 2000 radar, the UK Royal Navy’s Sea King 7 airborne surveillance and control system provides an organic AEW capability while deployed from surface ships. Also flown extensively in an over-land surveillance role while deployed to Afghanistan until late last year, the venerable type is nearing the end of its service, with the 10-strong fleet to retire between next year and 2018. The Ministry of Defence has opted to install a replacement system dubbed Crowsnest on 10 AgustaWestland AW101 Merlin HM2 anti-submarine warfare helicopters, and is due to choose between a Lockheed Martin UK and Thales UK team during the second quarter of this year. The UK will follow the Italian navy in operating the AW101 in an AEW&C role, with Rome having four examples in use.

9: Elta Systems CAEW – 6






Commonwealth of Australia

Israel and Singapore today operate a combined six Gulfstream G550 business jets that have been extensively modified by Israel Aerospace Industries’ Elta Systems subsidiary into the conformal AEW (CAEW) standard. Italy also is to receive two of the type. Rarer still is the IAI-developed Phalcon system, which integrated an AEW&C mission kit aboard the Boeing 707 platform. Single examples are flown by the air forces of Israel and Chile.

10: Boeing E-767 – 4






US Air Force

Boeing’s experience with delivering the E-3 AWACS led to the company’s development of a comparable system based on its newer 767 platform. Japan was the only nation to acquire the type, and flies four of the E-767 variant, along with the same number of KC-767 tankers.

Airborne early wonders: our Top 10 eyes in the sky - 2/27/2015 - Flight Global

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## nomi007

we also need to add 2-3 helicopter base awacs for navy
like Kamov Ka-31 or Westland Sea King 7

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## Shabi1

Helicopter based AWACs are best for aircraft carrier use.

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## nomi007

*Pakistan Air Force commissions Karakoram Eagle AWACS aircraft*

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has commissioned the Chinese-built ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft during a ceremony at an airbase in Karachi.

The aircraft is capable of detecting hostile aerial and sea surface targets at long ranges irrespective of their height. It was inducted into the PAF's No 4 Squadron, as reported by the Press Trust of India.

Pakistan Air Force air chief marshal Tahir Rafique Butt said: "Re-equipping the squadron with this state-of-the-art aircraft will enable PAF to effectively counter all threats against Pakistan's aerial frontiers and add a new dimension to the national security.

"Induction of Karakoram Eagle AWACS would revolutionise PAF's operational concepts.

"Induction of Karakoram Eagle AWACS would revolutionise PAF's operational concepts."
"With its induction, PAF is transforming into a modern versatile and capability based force."

In a statement, PAF said: "With the addition of AWACS, Pakistan air defence is now able to look deeper in enemy territory, be it land or sea.

"After an early detection, AWACS can direct its own fighter aircraft to intercept or neutralise the emerging threat, well before it can threaten our national assets.

"AWACS ability of detecting sea targets would also enhance the capabilities of the Pakistan Navy."

The Karakorum Eagle AWACS modified version of Shaanxi Yunshuji-8 medium range transport aircraft. It is designed specifically for the PAF, and consists of a Chinese active electronically scanned array radar mounted on the Y-8F600 platform.

The aircraft is equipped with a sophisticated integrated sensors and communications suite. It is capable of maintaining a link with ground command and control centres to provide pilots with a comprehensive air picture.

The PAF ordered four ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle aircraft from China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC) under a $278m contract in 2008, as reported by Pak Armed Forces.com

Pakistan Air Force commissions Karakoram Eagle AWACS aircraft - Airforce Technology

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## Bratva

Fourth ZDK in china along with 2 KJ-500 and KJ-2000. China recently inducted KJ-500 AEWC Credits @Deino. Any idea when this image was taken ?

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## nomi007

Bratva said:


> Fourth ZDK in china along with 2 KJ-500 and KJ-2000. China recently inducted KJ-500 AEWC Credits @Deino. Any idea when this image was taken ?


Hanzhong, Shaanxi province

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## Edevelop



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## nomi007



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## DANGER-ZONE

I dont want to be *NISHAN* here but we should cell, what's left over of ERIEYE, to KSA and look of more advance and potent KJ-500 to complete the AEW Fleet.

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## razgriz19

DANGER-ZONE said:


> I dont want to be *NISHAN* here but we should cell, what's left over of ERIEYE, to KSA and look of more advance and potent KJ-500 to complete the AEW Fleet.



or acquire the only one KSA has. what good would it do to them anyway?

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> or acquire the only one KSA has. what good would it do to them anyway?



Sweden has decided to ban sales of military equipment to KSA for human rights violations. Good chance for PK to buy the Erieye.

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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> Sweden has decided to ban sales of military equipment to KSA for human rights violations. Good chance for PK to buy the Erieye.



And Pakistan is already on a ban list of Sweden since 2007


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## Zarvan

Bratva said:


> And Pakistan is already on a ban list of Sweden since 2007


We got SAAB after 2007


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## SipahSalar

Bratva said:


> And Pakistan is already on a ban list of Sweden since 2007


Why? Do you have a reference?

What goes into defending AWACS and how hard is it to take one down?


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## Bratva

Zarvan said:


> We got SAAB after 2007





SipahSalar said:


> Why? Do you have a reference?
> 
> What goes into defending AWACS and how hard is it to take one down?



Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts. | Page 179


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## fatman17

Bratva said:


> And Pakistan is already on a ban list of Sweden since 2007



For offensive weapons. Erieye is not considered as such

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## Bratva

fatman17 said:


> For offensive weapons. Erieye is not considered as such



Sweden doesn't differentiate b/w offensive and defensive weapons. It's a complete ban.

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## fanna4paf2

plz tell me detail information of ZDK 03

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## fatman17

Bratva said:


> Sweden doesn't differentiate b/w offensive and defensive weapons. It's a complete ban.



If u say so

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## Imran Khan

Bratva said:


> Sweden doesn't differentiate b/w offensive and defensive weapons. It's a complete ban.


 but they sale support items of saab-2000 to pakistan after ban

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> but they sale support items of saab-2000 to pakistan after ban



A full ban means everything no sales no support as per Bratva

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> but they sale support items of saab-2000 to pakistan after ban



A full ban means everything no sales no support as per Bratva

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## Viper0011.

fatman17 said:


> A full ban means everything no sales no support as per Bratva



I don't think that's true. The ban is on offensive weapons. If the ban applied to defensive weapons, the SAAB team wouldn't have come to Pakistan to assess the damaged AEW platforms, or reviewed the situation and told Pakistan they didn't buy the accidental warranty so the repair work can't happen for free.

In fact, majority of these assets were delivered post 2007, so due to a ban, nothing gets delivered as the company and its employees go to jail for it. The Swedes would've given you your money back or Chocolates worth the billion dollar you paid.

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## fatman17

Viper0011. said:


> I don't think that's true. The ban is on offensive weapons. If the ban applied to defensive weapons, the SAAB team wouldn't have come to Pakistan to assess the damaged AEW platforms, or reviewed the situation and told Pakistan they didn't buy the accidental warranty so the repair work can't happen for free.
> 
> In fact, majority of these assets were delivered post 2007, so due to a ban, nothing gets delivered as the company and its employees go to jail for it. The Swedes would've given you your money back or Chocolates worth the billion dollar you paid.




That's exactly my point made in earlier post.

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> A full ban means everything no sales no support as per Bratva


nope sir its not banned that much i am sure abut it

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## Bratva

Imran Khan said:


> but they sale support items of saab-2000 to pakistan after ban



Have you read the wordings properly ?



Viper0011. said:


> I don't think that's true. The ban is on offensive weapons. If the ban applied to defensive weapons, the SAAB team wouldn't have come to Pakistan to assess the damaged AEW platforms, or reviewed the situation and told Pakistan they didn't buy the accidental warranty so the repair work can't happen for free.
> 
> In fact, majority of these assets were delivered post 2007, so due to a ban, nothing gets delivered as the company and its employees go to jail for it. The Swedes would've given you your money back or Chocolates worth the billion dollar you paid.



Pakistan is placed on the same list on which Saudi arabia is and it was during the time of Gen Musharraf dictatorship in 2007 when all the dramas of judiciary and constitutional abhorration was happening. Read my post once again. As per the agreements signed before 2007, they would honor it in both spirit and letter. The SAAB agreement signed in 2006 covers after sale services until agreement runs it's course
*
Sweden banned new arms sales to Pakistan in 2007, but continues to fulfill contract obligations relating to Erieye, said Andreas Ekman, the ISP's director general. (the Inspektionen for Strategiska Produkter (ISP), the country's state agency for nonproliferation and export controls)

"We continue to honor contracts agreed before 2007 until they run out," said Ekman.*

I don't know why people still confuses things and refuse to admit after reading clear cut wording of state official. If they aren't selling SAAB DEFENSIVE AWAC to Saudi Arabia, what makes people say they would sale defensive items to Pakistan ?

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## Donatello

Bratva said:


> Have you read the wordings properly ?
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan is placed on the same list on which Saudi arabia is and it was during the time of Gen Musharraf dictatorship in 2007 when all the dramas of judiciary and constitutional abhorration was happening. Read my post once again. As per the agreements signed before 2007, they would honor it in both spirit and letter. The SAAB agreement signed in 2006 covers after sale services until agreement runs it's course
> *
> Sweden banned new arms sales to Pakistan in 2007, but continues to fulfill contract obligations relating to Erieye, said Andreas Ekman, the ISP's director general. (the Inspektionen for Strategiska Produkter (ISP), the country's state agency for nonproliferation and export controls)
> 
> "We continue to honor contracts agreed before 2007 until they run out," said Ekman.*
> 
> I don't know why people still confuses things and refuse to admit after reading clear cut wording of state official. If they aren't selling SAAB DEFENSIVE AWAC to Saudi Arabia, what makes people say they would sale defensive items to Pakistan ?



Interesting. How long is the contract? Did PAF contract for full lifecycle cost ?

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## Superboy

ZDK-03 serial number 13-003

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## razgriz19

Imran Khan said:


> but they sale support items of saab-2000 to pakistan after ban


they said they would honor the deal. Support is part of the deal i guess


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## zeeshanvita

Bratva said:


> Have you read the wordings properly ?
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan is placed on the same list on which Saudi arabia is and it was during the time of Gen Musharraf dictatorship in 2007 when all the dramas of judiciary and constitutional abhorration was happening. Read my post once again. As per the agreements signed before 2007, they would honor it in both spirit and letter. The SAAB agreement signed in 2006 covers after sale services until agreement runs it's course
> *
> Sweden banned new arms sales to Pakistan in 2007, but continues to fulfill contract obligations relating to Erieye, said Andreas Ekman, the ISP's director general. (the Inspektionen for Strategiska Produkter (ISP), the country's state agency for nonproliferation and export controls)
> 
> "We continue to honor contracts agreed before 2007 until they run out," said Ekman.*
> 
> I don't know why people still confuses things and refuse to admit after reading clear cut wording of state official. If they aren't selling SAAB DEFENSIVE AWAC to Saudi Arabia, what makes people say they would sale defensive items to Pakistan ?



Why did Sweden banned Pakistan for arms sale..???


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## shaheenmissile

I have a feeling that the recently spotted Erieye in Saudi Arsenal is Pakistani Erieye,and Pakistan has got rid of Erieye all together.


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## Superboy

shaheenmissile said:


> I have a feeling that the recently spotted Erieye in Saudi Arsenal is Pakistani Erieye,and Pakistan has got rid of Erieye all together.




Perhaps Erieye not so good. ZDK-03 is bigger 4 engines has AESA. I think PAF go for KJ-500 which is based on Y-9.

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## shaheenmissile

SE-052 was spotted in the Parade in Saudia







But Pakistan had sent own Erieye to exercise Sword of Abdullah in April 2014










I think Pakistani Erieye never came back and is in Saudi colours now...Just my opinion.

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## Bratva

Donatello said:


> Interesting. How long is the contract? *Did PAF contract for full lifecycle cost *?



Most probably

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## nomi007

rehearsal for 23rd March 2015 Parade Event over Islamabad

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## nomi007



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## hassan1



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## nomi007

ZDK-03 KARAKORUM EAGLE AWACS OVER ISB!




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=928701260487450





SAAB 2000 ERIEYE AWACS




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=928650490492527

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## nomi007

watch from 1:35 on word

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## ice_man

nomi007 said:


> ZDK-03 KARAKORUM EAGLE AWACS OVER ISB!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=928701260487450
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAAB 2000 ERIEYE AWACS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=928650490492527



BEST MOMENT OF THE PARADE SEEING ERIEYE FLY PAST. CONFIRMS WE STILL GOT THEM UP AND RUNNING

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## Oruc

ice_man said:


> BEST MOMENT OF THE PARADE SEEING ERIEYE FLY PAST. CONFIRMS WE STILL GOT THEM UP AND RUNNING


But how many of them are flying at the moment?

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## fatman17

FireAngel said:


> But how many of them are flying at the moment?



Three

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## shaheenmissile

FireAngel said:


> But how many of them are flying at the moment?


10040 took part in the parade.The same plane which took part in saffron bandit 2013

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## Capt.Popeye

fatman17 said:


> Three



3... i.e. 2+1 ?

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## hassan1



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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> Three


can you back that up?

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> can you back that up?



What's there to back up. U want a/c logs for proof. Get real people. Tell me how many F16s are air worthy?

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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> What's there to back up. U want a/c logs for proof. Get real people. Tell me how many F16s are air worthy?



0040 is the only one I've seen photographed everywhere. Is that a coincidence?
I believe it was 40 in Saffron bandit, Saudi exercises as well (as per some members) and of course this recent parade.
If you can prove me wrong otherwise, I'd be very happy.

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## Oruc

razgriz19 said:


> 0040 is the only one I've seen photographed everywhere. Is that a coincidence?
> I believe it was 40 in Saffron bandit, Saudi exercises as well (as per some members) and of course this recent parade.
> If you can prove me wrong otherwise, I'd be very happy.


I think apart from 10025 and 10040 others are very rarely photographed. 49 or 10045 have one or two odd pics from their very early days. Nothing after that.

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> 0040 is the only one I've seen photographed everywhere. Is that a coincidence?
> I believe it was 40 in Saffron bandit, Saudi exercises as well (as per some members) and of course this recent parade.
> If you can prove me wrong otherwise, I'd be very happy.



That dosnt prove anything just bcuz one hasn't seen any pics. That's a weak position sir.

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## aziqbal

razgriz19 said:


> can you back that up?



I can

ZDK-03 sitting next to Chinese KJ-2000 AWACS (top right) 

Also present are two x KJ- 500 AWACS

4th unit has modifications for JF-17 integration which is why it's late being delivered

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## razgriz19

aziqbal said:


> I can
> 
> ZDK-03 sitting next to Chinese KJ-2000 AWACS (top right)
> 
> Also present are two x KJ- 500 AWACS
> 
> 4th unit has modifications for JF-17 integration which is why it's late being delivered



oh bhai ji me chinese awacs ke bare me nahi pooch raha tha. Woh to puri dunya janti hai, main saab 2000 ke bare me pooch raha tha.

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## hassan1



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## fatman17

Does the KE 03 have any self defence mechanism like flares and chaff

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## Bratva

razgriz19 said:


> can you back that up?



How many times this debate has to occur ? 1 is operational, 1 destroyed. 2 under maintenance for the extensive damages received during attack

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## aliyusuf

Bratva said:


> How many times this debate has to occur ? 1 is operational, 1 destroyed. 2 under maintenance for the extensive damages received during attack



That is my understanding as well.

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## nomi007

finally 4th zdk-03 has been found





The delivery of the 4th *ZDK-03* was delayed, probably due to certain upgrades such as a new data link. *ZDK-03* is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the *JF-17* fighter fleet currently in service with PAF

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## Thorough Pro

idiot said Saab is A2A refueler 



nomi007 said:


> watch from 1:35 on word


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## Viper0011.

razgriz19 said:


> 0040 is the only one I've seen photographed everywhere. Is that a coincidence?
> I believe it was 40 in Saffron bandit, Saudi exercises as well (as per some members) and of course this recent parade.
> If you can prove me wrong otherwise, I'd be very happy.




There are two operational. Remainder destroyed through RPG fire, but the Radar is being recovered. You might see the test plane to have the Radar installed on, if they can recover it entirely.


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## black-hawk_101

As PAF has placed another order of about 3 KE-3 AEW&Cs aircraft. So will PAF be selling out their Saab-2000s to buy used Mirage Vs and F-16s Block-15s from Egypt?


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## volatile

What About F-16 data link if Saab (what ever is left over) .

What About F-16 data link if Saab (what ever is left over) .


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## Dil Pakistan

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 208560



I think this needs a little correction (may be a typo):

The correct would be "Nigah woh keh muhtaj-i-mehro *mah *naheen hey" ...(*maan *sounds incorrect).

I may be wrong as well.


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


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## Tipu7

black-hawk_101 said:


> As PAF has placed another order of about 3 KE-3 AEW&Cs aircraft. So will PAF be selling out their Saab-2000s to buy used Mirage Vs and F-16s Block-15s from Egypt?


Why mirage V? Why blk 15? Simply NO.......

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## black-hawk_101

Tipu7 said:


> Why mirage V? Why blk 15? Simply NO.......


used F-16s Block-15 are needed in good numbers now like about 100 of them and also PAF needs to order about 32-52 F-16s Block-52. Other than 300+ JF-17s.


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## Tipu7

black-hawk_101 said:


> used F-16s Block-15 are needed in good numbers now like about 100 of them and also PAF needs to order about 32-52 F-16s Block-52. Other than 300+ JF-17s.


No Bro. we will no longer buy any second hand Falcons. if we even go for F16 now we will buy them directly from Lockheed Martin.............. and those will be Block 52 or may be 60

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## black-hawk_101

So we would going to see some more 52 F-16s Block-52s?


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## Basel

Why ZDK-3 is circling over parts of Karachi since few hours? Its not usual activity, usually Mirages or F-7s do that.

@Windjammer @Horus


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## Imran Khan

Basel said:


> Why ZDK-3 is circling over parts of Karachi since few hours? Its not usual activity, usually Mirages or F-7s do that.
> 
> @Windjammer @Horus


please yaar ye baat ap kal bhi pooch sakty thy don't post live info

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## Basel

Imran Khan said:


> please yaar ye baat ap kal bhi pooch sakty thy don't post live info



Sorry! But every body can see that its not a secret.


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## Imran Khan

Basel said:


> Sorry! But every body can see that its not a secret.


i know sir but if its benefit only0.01% next party . we should not do it . anyway you are free to post and sorry if you feel bad .

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## Basel

Imran Khan said:


> i know sir but if its benefit only0.01% next party . we should not do it . anyway you are free to post and sorry if you feel bad .



No, I didn't feel bad bro.


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## HRK

Basel said:


> Why ZDK-3 is circling over parts of Karachi since few hours? Its not usual activity, usually Mirages or F-7s do that.
> 
> @Windjammer @Horus



Navy was suppose to conduct some sort of exercise this activities *might *be related to it ....


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## hassan1



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## Basel

HRK said:


> Navy was suppose to conduct some sort of exercise this activities *might *be related to it ....



Usually they fly from Base Faisal too which share facilities with PNS Mehran (Naval Air Station) and they also fly towards sea so when they are circling over Karachi its not necessary that they are there for exercise with Navy and the one I posted about was not from Base Faisal it was from base Masroor.

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## Zarvan

Did we got that destroyed SAAB 2000 replaced or not ?


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## nomi007

4th zdk-03

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## wali87

master_fx said:


> Just wondering, Is pakistan interested and in needs of acquiring a few AWACS?
> 
> Note from Admin: This thread is now a thread to discuss *Comparison & Analysis of Pakistans AWACs Capability.* Keep things down and mature for discussion.
> 
> Cheers.



Was just going through the first post on this thread and it brought a smile on face to think what our air force has achieved from the time this thread was started. Alhamdulillah, with the motivation, dedication and hard work of our boys, today we have not one but two fully inducted and operational AWACs platforms sending jitters through the hearts of our enemies. It was a dream considering none of the western countries were ready to cooperate with our nation on this issue AND The speed at which this dream was realised is phenomenal. 

Well done Pakistan Airforce, we are proud of you.

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## kamel

hello i m new i just want whats is the best aew : zdk03 or saab eriye ?thks


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## MastanKhan

kamel said:


> hello i m new i just want whats is the best aew : zdk03 or saab eriye ?thks




Hi,

Both are equally good----it all depends on your training and staff manning those consoles and their superiors---

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## Indus Falcon

kamel said:


> hello i m new i just want whats is the best aew : zdk03 or saab eriye ?thks



From what I have heard, the ZDK03 has better & longer coverage, less susceptible to EW & Clutter, higher MTBF, can track more targets, as well as smaller CM sized targets at longer distances. Plus the aircraft can stay up in the air longer than the Saab Eriye.

More learned members can correct me if I'm wrong.


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## kamel

Thanks for your reponse.
Other question.your saab eriye and drdo of indian ,its similary ?


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## Path-Finder

kamel said:


> Thanks for your reponse.
> Other question.your saab eriye and drdo of indian ,its similary ?



Sorry Welcome. Is it true Algeria is interested in indian AWA&C which has similar antenna as erieye?


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## kamel

Hi the drdo in jully on Algeria It's just a ferry stop on it's way from Brazil to India


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## nomi007

radar testbed 
This Metro III was used in Sweden for Erieye


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## Zarvan

So the SAAB which was destroyed instead of getting one SAAB we got one Karakorum AWAC. Because as far as I know we ordered 4 but these pictures clearly indicate we have 5 of these not 4. Still good news 
@fatman17 @Horus @Slav Defence @Pakistanisage and others

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## princefaisal

*An eye in the sky: Pakistan Air-force inducts ZDK-03, the 5th Chinese AWACS*
Posted on March 1, 2015(Asia Despatch News)

Islamabad: *Another defense strengthening step has been taken by Pakistan, as the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) inducts the fifth Chinese made ZDK-03 AWACS (Airborne-Warning And Control System) aircraft into its inventory, a system that would give the PAF eagle eyes in the skies.*

The official commissioning ceremony was held at the Pakistan Air Force’s Masroor Base, located near Karachi, in the presence of the Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. According to sources, the unique aircraft will be operated by the No. 4 Squadron based at Masroor.

Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, addressing the ceremony, said Pakistan is a peace-loving country, and pursues peaceful relations with the international community, especially with its neighbours.

“However, we stand determined to safeguard our national interests and uphold our sovereignty against any aggressor,” he said.

Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt termed the induction a significant moment for the PAF.

“Re-equipping the squadron with this state-of-the-art aircraft will enable PAF to effectively counter all threats against Pakistan’s aerial frontiers and add a new dimension to the national security,” said Tahir Rafique.

The aircraft, ZDK-03, a variant developed to meet Pakistani requirements which is equipped with a Chinese AESA radar, mounted on the Shaanxi Y-8F600 four turboprop transport aircraft, a Chinese variant of the Russian An-22 transport aircraft.

According to sources, the radar has a greater range than that of the Saab 2000 Erieye , Another AWACS Aircraft the Pakistan Air Force operates. Pakistan acquired 4 Saab 2000 Aircrafts from Sweden, one got destroyed in a terrorist attack at Mehran Airbase.

The ZDK-03 is also reportedly equipped with a sophisticated ESM system that can intercept and analyze signals from airborne and surface emitters, giving the PAF stand-off warnings against possible air threats.

The system can also monitor enemy vessel movement in the sea and simultaneously coordinates the in-Filght Fighter – aircrafts with Ground-base and with other friendly Aircrafts.

Its long-ranged radar enables the crew to carry out reconnaissance mission deep inside enemy territory while flying within its own airspace.

The addition is the 7th of its type, as the Pakistan Air Force now has seven AWACS of mixed Swedish and Chinese combination, enough to defend its air space once compared to India’s 4 AWACS Aircraft. However in order to keep the balance, India has reportedly launched a program to induct 6 AWACS after the increasing Pakistani and Chinese air-fleets.

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## araz

princefaisal said:


> *An eye in the sky: Pakistan Air-force inducts ZDK-03, the 5th Chinese AWACS*
> Posted on March 1, 2015(Asia Despatch News)
> 
> Islamabad: *Another defense strengthening step has been taken by Pakistan, as the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) inducts the fifth Chinese made ZDK-03 AWACS (Airborne-Warning And Control System) aircraft into its inventory, a system that would give the PAF eagle eyes in the skies.*
> 
> The official commissioning ceremony was held at the Pakistan Air Force’s Masroor Base, located near Karachi, in the presence of the Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. According to sources, the unique aircraft will be operated by the No. 4 Squadron based at Masroor.
> 
> Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, addressing the ceremony, said Pakistan is a peace-loving country, and pursues peaceful relations with the international community, especially with its neighbours.
> 
> “However, we stand determined to safeguard our national interests and uphold our sovereignty against any aggressor,” he said.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt termed the induction a significant moment for the PAF.
> 
> “Re-equipping the squadron with this state-of-the-art aircraft will enable PAF to effectively counter all threats against Pakistan’s aerial frontiers and add a new dimension to the national security,” said Tahir Rafique.
> 
> The aircraft, ZDK-03, a variant developed to meet Pakistani requirements which is equipped with a Chinese AESA radar, mounted on the Shaanxi Y-8F600 four turboprop transport aircraft, a Chinese variant of the Russian An-22 transport aircraft.
> 
> According to sources, the radar has a greater range than that of the Saab 2000 Erieye , Another AWACS Aircraft the Pakistan Air Force operates. Pakistan acquired 4 Saab 2000 Aircrafts from Sweden, one got destroyed in a terrorist attack at Mehran Airbase.
> 
> The ZDK-03 is also reportedly equipped with a sophisticated ESM system that can intercept and analyze signals from airborne and surface emitters, giving the PAF stand-off warnings against possible air threats.
> 
> The system can also monitor enemy vessel movement in the sea and simultaneously coordinates the in-Filght Fighter – aircrafts with Ground-base and with other friendly Aircrafts.
> 
> Its long-ranged radar enables the crew to carry out reconnaissance mission deep inside enemy territory while flying within its own airspace.
> 
> The addition is the 7th of its type, as the Pakistan Air Force now has seven AWACS of mixed Swedish and Chinese combination, enough to defend its air space once compared to India’s 4 AWACS Aircraft. However in order to keep the balance, India has reportedly launched a program to induct 6 AWACS after the increasing Pakistani and Chinese air-fleets.


There is disparity in this article. It says the fifth Chinese Awac ZKD 03 has joined the fleet when we had only ordered 4. Secondly it states that that we had 4 Swedish SAABs of which one was destroyed . Then it states that we now have 7 AWACS. The last time I counted 4+3=7. Not 5+3. Bloody news people.
Araz


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## aliyusuf

It is bad reporting for sure ... but can it be that since 1 EriEye Saab-2000 was destroyed and 1 was reportedly damaged and supposed to be repaired (current status unknown) ... then it would be 5 + 2 = 7? ... that is if the news of the 5th ZDK-03 is correct.


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## Zarvan

araz said:


> There is disparity in this article. It says the fifth Chinese Awac ZKD 03 has joined the fleet when we had only ordered 4. Secondly it states that that we had 4 Swedish SAABs of which one was destroyed . Then it states that we now have 7 AWACS. The last time I counted 4+3=7. Not 5+3. Bloody news people.
> Araz


Yes initally we ordered 4 ZKD 03 but as one of our SAAB was destroyed in terrorist attack so I think instead of going for SAAB we decided to for ZKD-03 as replacement for that SAAB.


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## Imran Khan

until now i feel sad and ashamed that PAF failed to protect the most expensive single aircraft in their inventory .


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## nomi007




----------



## HAIDER

Imran Khan said:


> until now i feel sad and ashamed that PAF failed to protect the most expensive single aircraft in their inventory .


They were busy in making money from wedding hall.....they move the guard to wedding parks, instead of planes...

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## Quwa

Imran Khan said:


> until now i feel sad and ashamed that PAF failed to protect the most expensive single aircraft in their inventory .


Until this war on terror issue, the biggest threat facing PAF air bases was Pumba, I.e. warthogs. It didn't fully comprehend that a war was being fought on home soil.


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## Thorough Pro

Look at the pictures in above Post, serial numbers
11-001
11-002
12-002
12-003
13-003

confirm there are 5 KE's, but why are 002 & 003 duplicated? anyone 



aliyusuf said:


> It is bad reporting for sure ... but can it be that since 1 EriEye Saab-2000 was destroyed and 1 was reportedly damaged and supposed to be repaired (current status unknown) ... then it would be 5 + 2 = 7? ... that is if the news of the 5th ZDK-03 is correct.


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## ice_man

nomi007 said:


>



SAABs ERIEYE will be missed 

& the P3 upgraded in Mehraan.

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## Bratva

Thorough Pro said:


> Look at the pictures in above Post, serial numbers
> 11-001
> 11-002
> 12-002
> 12-003
> 13-003
> 
> confirm there are 5 KE's, but why are 002 & 003 duplicated? anyone



There are only 3 KE's. Those serial numbers indicate, the year 2nd and 3rd ZDK was brought in Pakistan and once it was inducted in PAF properly, the serial changed and reflected that year properly

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## Quwa

ice_man said:


> SAABs ERIEYE will be missed
> 
> & the P3 upgraded in Mehraan.


The way PAF is going, it'd much prefer being more involved in the development of what it procures, so as to ensure its exact needs are met. PAF would probably prefer engaging in a project akin to Wedgetail: Take a very powerful AESA radar and integrate it to a platform capable of long loiter time (not only in terms of flight, but housing the actual operators for long durations). It'll be a decade or so before such a program could be possible, but it'd be the ideal solution, above Erieye by any measure. ZDK03 and Karakorum Eagle is a step towards that.

In an ideal world, Pakistan would be in a position (financially) to take the Airbus A320 as a base platform for AEW&C, MPA and ISR&BM programs, one after the other.


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## syed_yusuf

currently paf operates 3 erieye and 4 KE03

4th erieye could be procured based on one existing platform and transferring equipment from damaged example


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## Viper0011.

Mark Sien said:


> The way PAF is going, it'd much prefer being more involved in the development of what it procures, so as to ensure its exact needs are met. PAF would probably prefer engaging in a project akin to Wedgetail: Take a very powerful AESA radar and integrate it to a platform capable of long loiter time (not only in terms of flight, but housing the actual operators for long durations). It'll be a decade or so before such a program could be possible, but it'd be the ideal solution, above Erieye by any measure. ZDK03 and Karakorum Eagle is a step towards that.
> 
> In an ideal world, Pakistan would be in a position (financially) to take* the Airbus A320 as a base platform for AEW&C*, MPA and ISR&BM programs, one after the other.



Why make it three times more costly, when you can have the Indonesian or some Chinese jets available to you as platforms for like 30% of the cost? In fact, the Chinese are working on Boeing like ATR jets (small ones are good enough for something like the Erieye radar), and in the next few years, the Chinese will be producing jets looking modern like Boeing's. Pakistan can acquire those, again, for 50% of the cost for future AWACS platforms. 

I think for the next 10-15 years, you guys are good. The numbers will obviously increase if a Naval air arm is created (dedicated) and as Gawader goes full steam ahead with business actually taking place after the CPEC completes.

IMO, if there is anything with regards to AEW, Pakistan needs to learn and master the AESA tech and build these radars in house. That would be HUGE for your industry's advancement. Later, the same tech learned can be customized and made smaller so that it could then be used in platforms like the JFT, etc. Plus, similar radars can ALSO be used in SAM systems, which, IMO should be the highest priority next to additional Jets (capable platform with TOT of course).

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## ice_man

syed_yusuf said:


> currently paf operates 3 erieye and 4 KE03
> 
> 4th erieye could be procured based on one existing platform and transferring equipment from damaged example



3 ERIEYE?? that is optimistic


----------



## razgriz19

ice_man said:


> 3 ERIEYE?? that is optimistic



Yeah very optimistic
#040 was again photographed recently, its the same one that appeared on 23 march flypast, saudi exercise, etc
From pictures we know for sure PAF has two Saabs, one fitted with Eriye, the other one without it. PAF uses it as a transporter i think since Saab has blacklisted Pakistan. 

April 2015 - people hauler




#040 Last Eriye.









And recently, like yesterday!
#040

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## Zarvan

razgriz19 said:


> Yeah very optimistic
> #040 was again photographed recently, its the same one that appeared on 23 march flypast, saudi exercise, etc
> From pictures we know for sure PAF has two Saabs, one fitted with Eriye, the other one without it. PAF uses it as a transporter i think since Saab has blacklisted Pakistan.
> 
> April 2015 - people hauler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #040 Last Eriye.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And recently, like yesterday!
> #040


Does any one has video of this program ?


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## razgriz19

Zarvan said:


> Does any one has video of this program ?


Dunya News: Dunya TV Special-part All-2015-09-03-Dunya News Special: Qas.

only like 5 mins


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## Quwa

There was a report a while back hinting that the two heavily damaged Erieye would be repaired, but as with many things in Pakistan, speculation and hope is all we got. Also, I don't think Saab or Sweden blacklisted Pakistan, their embassy still has Saab's Defence branch involved in Pakistan.

Aerial Eyes: Pakistan’s New AWACS Fleets


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## janu.bravo

*SAAB SIGNS SUPPORT CONTRACT FOR AIRBORNE SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM*
PRESS RELEASE

21 March 2013



Defence and security company Saab has today signed a support contract for airborne surveillance system. The contract amounts to MSEK1,100 over 2013-2017.

The contract concerns a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a previously delivered system, Saab 2000 AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control). The Saab 2000 AEW&C comprises of Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system and ground equipment.

The wide-area surveillance system in combination with ground equipment enables control over both land and sea, and can play an important role for border surveillance and rescue operations as well as in combating terrorism and organised crime.

"Our surveillance system provides the customer with improved solutions for defence and civil security. This contract is a result of our close cooperation with our customer and can be seen as a further confirmation of our strong capability to provide our customers with advanced service and support solutions”, says Gunilla Fransson, Head of Saab’s business area Security and Defence Solutions.

Saab offers airborne surveillance systems for a wide range of use. The systems can be based on different platforms and delivered as turn key solutions including a comprehensive set of advanced support, spare part services and training. Saab’s Erieye radar system has been provided on several platforms, for example Saab 2000, Saab 340 and Embraer 145, and sold to eight different customers around the world.

The industry’s nature is such that depending on circumstances concerning the product and customer, information regarding the customer will not be announced.

Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defence to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers’ changing needs.

*For further information, please contact:*

Saab Press Centre, +46 (0)734 180 018, presscentre@saabgroup.com



Mark Sien said:


> There was a report a while back hinting that the two heavily damaged Erieye would be repaired, but as with many things in Pakistan, speculation and hope is all we got. Also, I don't think Saab or Sweden blacklisted Pakistan, their embassy still has Saab's Defence branch involved in Pakistan.
> 
> Aerial Eyes: Pakistan’s New AWACS Fleets


----------



## ice_man

janu.bravo said:


> *SAAB SIGNS SUPPORT CONTRACT FOR AIRBORNE SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM*
> PRESS RELEASE
> 
> 21 March 2013
> 
> 
> 
> Defence and security company Saab has today signed a support contract for airborne surveillance system. The contract amounts to MSEK1,100 over 2013-2017.
> 
> The contract concerns a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a previously delivered system, Saab 2000 AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control). The Saab 2000 AEW&C comprises of Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system and ground equipment.
> 
> The wide-area surveillance system in combination with ground equipment enables control over both land and sea, and can play an important role for border surveillance and rescue operations as well as in combating terrorism and organised crime.
> 
> "Our surveillance system provides the customer with improved solutions for defence and civil security. This contract is a result of our close cooperation with our customer and can be seen as a further confirmation of our strong capability to provide our customers with advanced service and support solutions”, says Gunilla Fransson, Head of Saab’s business area Security and Defence Solutions.
> 
> Saab offers airborne surveillance systems for a wide range of use. The systems can be based on different platforms and delivered as turn key solutions including a comprehensive set of advanced support, spare part services and training. Saab’s Erieye radar system has been provided on several platforms, for example Saab 2000, Saab 340 and Embraer 145, and sold to eight different customers around the world.
> 
> The industry’s nature is such that depending on circumstances concerning the product and customer, information regarding the customer will not be announced.
> 
> Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defence to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers’ changing needs.
> 
> *For further information, please contact:*
> 
> Saab Press Centre, +46 (0)734 180 018, presscentre@saabgroup.com




any update on this? this news is more than 2 years old. and we have only seen the seriel number 0040 since then.


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## Imran Khan

stupid PAF go to 27 ramdhan prayer and keep 1bn$ planes on mercy of terrorist  until now my brain boil when is visit this thread

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## syed_yusuf

Reading between lines, it seems that we have 2 extreme views
view 1 - only 1 aircraft operational and 3 under going extensive repairs. Saab was awarded a contract to fix these 3 planes and make them operational. while is 1 plane is totally lost while some of the opinion that avionics form the 4th plane could be salvaged. hence PAF will have 3 operational eventually soon if not already done.

View 2 - only one example is damaged and need repairs. rest of the 3 are fully operational. one damaged could have been written off and the avionics need to be ported to an extra example we have in transport duties. 

Reading between lines

worst case- PAF have 1 operational Saab and 2 will join soon after repairs while one lost example avionics might be ported to a new platform.

Bast case - 3 are operational and one need to be repaired extensively. this might require to port avionics to new platform. 

bottom line - PAF will going to have 3 operational soon if not already done. while last example might be left out written off or avionics ported to an existing platform operated by PAF VIP squadron. 

it is safe to assume paf has 3 Saab 2000 AEWCS platforms may be 4


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## Imran Khan

did somebody notice long time no see this fifth saab-2000 training aircraft why ???????


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## razgriz19

Imran Khan said:


> stupid PAF go to 27 ramdhan prayer and keep 1bn$ planes on mercy of terrorist  until now my brain boil when is visit this thread



you can say that again.
If that contract of $170 million was for the repairs of two damaged systems then hopefully by next year we would see another one or two Saab after they're done with repairs. 
Although I highly doubt it takes this long, I am from an aviation background. 

And that training aircraft is still around being used as a transporter for officials. It was photographed in April this year i posted a picture earlier yesterday

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## Bratva

Mark Sien said:


> There was a report a while back hinting that the two heavily damaged Erieye would be repaired, but as with many things in Pakistan, speculation and hope is all we got. A*lso, I don't think Saab or Sweden blacklisted Pakistan, their embassy still has Saab's Defence branch involved in Pakistan.*
> 
> Aerial Eyes: Pakistan’s New AWACS Fleets



Maintenance and system Support for Saab 2000 would continue in varying degrees as per contract signed in 2006. New weapon purchases from Sweden are banned which were imposed in 2007


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## Imran Khan

razgriz19 said:


> you can say that again.
> If that contract of $170 million was for the repairs of two damaged systems then hopefully by next year we would see another one or two Saab after they're done with repairs.
> Although I highly doubt it takes this long, I am from an aviation background.
> 
> And that training aircraft is still around being used as a transporter for officials. It was photographed in April this year i posted a picture earlier yesterday


if you have seen the pic from april then RIP to our dream


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## ice_man

Bratva said:


> Maintenance and system Support for Saab 2000 would continue in varying degrees as per contract signed in 2006. New weapon purchases from Sweden are banned which were imposed in 2007



So when are the "repairs" going to be completed. 

It has been more than 2 years and yet the repaired aircraft are not back. Neither any information if the repairs are being done in Pakistan or Sweden.


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## Imran Khan

ice_man said:


> So when are the "repairs" going to be completed.
> 
> It has been more than 2 years and yet the repaired aircraft are not back. Neither any information if the repairs are being done in Pakistan or Sweden.


may be paf is planning to give us heart attack with a picture of 4 line up saab=2000s

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## razgriz19

Imran Khan said:


> if you have seen the pic from april then RIP to our dream








PAF veterans day April 26 2015
Air Show Held at PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha - History of PIA - Forum

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## Imran Khan

razgriz19 said:


> PAF veterans day April 26 2015
> Air Show Held at PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha - History of PIA - Forum


got it boss its mean this bird has nothing to do with erieye


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## razgriz19

Imran Khan said:


> got it boss its mean this bird has nothing to do with erieye



yup now lets just wait and watch
Hopefully we'll see the others soon...


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## Imran Khan

razgriz19 said:


> yup now lets just wait and watch
> Hopefully we'll see the others soon...


or else show us wreckage so we forget them forever . its feel in my heart like my missing son


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## Bratva

ice_man said:


> So when are the "repairs" going to be completed.
> 
> It has been more than 2 years and yet the repaired aircraft are not back. Neither any information if the repairs are being done in Pakistan or Sweden.



Only Wajahat S Khan can answer that question because he was given access to Interview Saab squadron

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## Imran Khan

Bratva said:


> Only Wajahat S Khan can answer that question because he was given access to Interview Saab squadron


and they inform him ? i don't think that if its ordered to kept secret they will shear it a media visitor


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## Tacticool

Bratva said:


> Maintenance and system Support for Saab 2000 would continue in varying degrees as per contract signed in 2006. New weapon purchases from Sweden are banned which were imposed in 2007


Why did they ban?


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## Imran Khan

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Why did they ban?


they said we have no human rights


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## razgriz19

Imran Khan said:


> or else show us wreckage so we forget them forever . its feel in my heart like my missing son



hahah! truee
I hope we hear something soon - sorry SEE* something


Bratva said:


> Only Wajahat S Khan can answer that question because he was given access to Interview Saab squadron



If someone has his twitter or contact info, we could ask him how many of them he saw parked there
Or we can just wait for the full show, maybe they reveal something about the numbers


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## Bratva

razgriz19 said:


> hahah! truee
> I hope we hear something soon - sorry SEE* something
> 
> 
> If someone has his twitter or contact info, we could ask him how many of them he saw parked there
> Or we can just wait for the full show, maybe they reveal something about the numbers



I asked him. He avoided answering me 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/639417995287097345
The show played on tv this evening. Waiting for it to be uploaded online

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## airbus101

Qasam Us Waqat Ki

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## Mr.WetPants

Neo said:


> Cabinet okays $1 billion deal for Swedish AWACS
> 
> 
> *ISLAMABAD *_(updated on: May 24, 2006, 21:41 PST_): The cabinet approved on Wednesday plans for the purchase of a $1 billion airborne early warning surveillance system from Swedish firms Saab and Ericsson to boost its air defences.
> 
> "The Federal Cabinet accorded the go-ahead to the Ministry of Defence Production of the proposed purchase of AWACS aircraft from Sweden," said an official statement issued after the cabinet meeting.
> 
> Defence group Saab announced in October that it and Ericsson had won the order worth more than 8 billion crowns ($1 billion) from Pakistan.
> 
> The statement said defence officials informed the cabinet that Pakistan lacked a reliable surveillance system for its air space.
> 
> "In order to safeguard the air defences of Pakistan, it was deemed necessary to have the latest, airborne early warning systems," it added.
> 
> The system includes Saab 2000 turboprop aircraft equipped with airborne radar from Ericsson.



Awesome News


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## Imran Khan

bhai saab-2000 to play hi nhi hota


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## ice_man

Mr.WetPants said:


> Awesome News



bhai it is a 9 year old news. this was the initial order


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## Mr.WetPants

ice_man said:


> bhai it is a 9 year old news. this was the initial order


Oh My Bad


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## ice_man

airbus101 said:


> Qasam Us Waqat Ki



except the AEWs the link worked.

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## razgriz19

Dunya News: Dunya TV Special-part All-2015-09-04-Dunya News Special: Qas.


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## airbus101

ice_man said:


> except the AEWs the link worked.


there we go boss
Dunya News: Dunya TV Special-part All-2015-09-03-Dunya News Special: Qas.


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## shaheenmissile

janu.bravo said:


> *SAAB SIGNS SUPPORT CONTRACT FOR AIRBORNE SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM*
> PRESS RELEASE
> 
> 21 March 2013
> 
> 
> 
> Defence and security company Saab has today signed a support contract for airborne surveillance system. The contract amounts to MSEK1,100 over 2013-2017.
> 
> The contract concerns a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a previously delivered system, Saab 2000 AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control). The Saab 2000 AEW&C comprises of Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system and ground equipment.
> 
> The wide-area surveillance system in combination with ground equipment enables control over both land and sea, and can play an important role for border surveillance and rescue operations as well as in combating terrorism and organised crime.
> 
> "Our surveillance system provides the customer with improved solutions for defence and civil security. This contract is a result of our close cooperation with our customer and can be seen as a further confirmation of our strong capability to provide our customers with advanced service and support solutions”, says Gunilla Fransson, Head of Saab’s business area Security and Defence Solutions.
> 
> Saab offers airborne surveillance systems for a wide range of use. The systems can be based on different platforms and delivered as turn key solutions including a comprehensive set of advanced support, spare part services and training. Saab’s Erieye radar system has been provided on several platforms, for example Saab 2000, Saab 340 and Embraer 145, and sold to eight different customers around the world.
> 
> The industry’s nature is such that depending on circumstances concerning the product and customer, information regarding the customer will not be announced.
> 
> Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defence to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers’ changing needs.
> 
> *For further information, please contact:*
> 
> Saab Press Centre, +46 (0)734 180 018, presscentre@saabgroup.com


That contract was with Saudi Arabia. They have at least one Erieye.


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## Imran Khan

razgriz19 said:


> Dunya News: Dunya TV Special-part All-2015-09-04-Dunya News Special: Qas.


nothing new friend same 040 was parked and bla bla bla


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## airbus101

Imran Khan said:


> nothing new friend same 040 was parked and bla bla bla


 Does anyone remember the number which was Flown on 23rd of March 2015


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## Quwa

Usman Ansari wrote that 3 Erieye were active with PAF in his February 2015 piece on Defense News. Considering how often he gets in touch with retired officers (e.g. AC Kaiser Tufail) and well connected analysts (e.g. Usman Shabbir), I don't think he'd mention this point if it weren't true.

"The four Karakorum Eagle AEW&C aircraft join the surviving three Saab Erieye AEW&C aircraft ordered in 2005 and delivered from 2009. One of the four Erieye aircraft was destroyed in a terrorist attack on Kamra Air Base in August 2012."

Pakistan Re-equips Squadron With AEW&C Planes

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## shaheenmissile

Mark Sien said:


> Usman Ansari wrote that 3 Erieye were active with PAF in his February 2015 piece on Defense News. Considering how often he gets in touch with retired officers (e.g. AC Kaiser Tufail) and well connected analysts (e.g. Usman Shabbir), I don't think he'd mention this point if it weren't true.
> 
> "The four Karakorum Eagle AEW&C aircraft join the surviving three Saab Erieye AEW&C aircraft ordered in 2005 and delivered from 2009. One of the four Erieye aircraft was destroyed in a terrorist attack on Kamra Air Base in August 2012."
> 
> Pakistan Re-equips Squadron With AEW&C Planes



7 are more than enough for Pakistan's needs.


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## Dazzler

Mark Sien said:


> Usman Ansari wrote that 3 Erieye were active with PAF in his February 2015 piece on Defense News. Considering how often he gets in touch with retired officers (e.g. AC Kaiser Tufail) and well connected analysts (e.g. Usman Shabbir), I don't think he'd mention this point if it weren't true.
> 
> "The four Karakorum Eagle AEW&C aircraft join the surviving three Saab Erieye AEW&C aircraft ordered in 2005 and delivered from 2009. One of the four Erieye aircraft was destroyed in a terrorist attack on Kamra Air Base in August 2012."
> 
> Pakistan Re-equips Squadron With AEW&C Planes



You just busted some conspiracy theorists on this forum pretty bad mate. They believe all three were totalled and 040 was the sole survivor  guess these guys have some super dapper sources these days


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## Imran Khan

Dazzler said:


> You just busted some conspiracy theorists on this forum pretty bad mate. They believe all three were totalled and 040 was the sole survivor  guess these guys have some super dapper sources these days


and we have nothing then an article boss?
no thanks we need to see then


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## Donatello

Need another 4 AWACs, probably KJ-200 types to have good coverage.


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## Imran Khan

Donatello said:


> Need another 4 AWACs, probably KJ-200 types to have good coverage.


khuda ka khuf karo janab  itny airblue ke jhaaz nhi jitny hamary awacs hain


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## Quwa

Dazzler said:


> You just busted some conspiracy theorists on this forum pretty bad mate. They believe all three were totalled and 040 was the sole survivor  guess these guys have some super dapper sources these days


To be fair PAF has been unusually quiet on this whole issue, but it won't let the number 3 float after MoD explicitly said 1.


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## Donatello

Imran Khan said:


> khuda ka khuf karo janab  itny airblue ke jhaaz nhi jitny hamary awacs hain



Don't care about air blue.

Chinese AWACs is good on cost and capability. It'll offer flexibility for the air frames and combat commanders.


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## janu.bravo

Imran Khan said:


> khuda ka khuf karo janab  itny airblue ke jhaaz nhi jitny hamary awacs hain


LOL



shaheenmissile said:


> That contract was with Saudi Arabia. They have at least one Erieye.


Highly unlikely sir!! as Saudis got trend to disclose the contract on public, just for show-off!!!


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## Imran Khan

Donatello said:


> Don't care about air blue.
> 
> Chinese AWACs is good on cost and capability. It'll offer flexibility for the air frames and combat commanders.


do we really need them ? 7 awacs for 796096km are more then enough


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## Bratva

Imran Khan said:


> do we really need them ? 7 awacs for 796096km are more then enough



1 AWAC support 15-25 aircrafts. 7 is very little to cater the entire fighter jet fleets. Consider in that way, instead of what area they are covering.


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## shaheenmissile

Bratva said:


> 1 AWAC support 15-25 aircrafts. 7 is very little to cater the entire fighter jet fleets. Consider in that way, instead of what area they are covering.


AWACS just broadcasts the Info? Whoever is tuned into the right frequency and has the security protocols can receive the info and use it.
From where the limit of 15-25 comes??


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## Bratva

shaheenmissile said:


> AWACS just broadcasts the Info? Whoever is tuned into the right frequency and has the security protocols can receive the info and use it.
> From where the limit of 15-25 comes??



And thats how enemy jams your communication or worse finds out your location if you broadcast it. AWACS of today multicast the info. Encrypts the frequency and data packet both. If you began to broadcast the info, Location of AWAC will be found out quickly.


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## Dazzler

Mark Sien said:


> To be fair PAF has been unusually quiet on this whole issue, but it won't let the number 3 float after MoD explicitly said 1.



They r quiet for an obvious reason which should be understandable.

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## shaheenmissile

Bratva said:


> And thats how enemy jams your communication or worse finds out your location if you broadcast it. AWACS of today multicast the info. Encrypts the frequency and data packet both. If you began to broadcast the info, Location of AWAC will be found out quickly.


But Karakoram Eagle has a Dedicated TV channel for Broadcasting live video feed.
I am not saying they will use it all the time. But still.
AWACS is too big to be hidden anyway,so i dont think transmission will give out its position alone,as its not stealth and not meant to be.
Encryption,yes. Data packet as in short bursts of Data,instead of constant feed. Yes.
But can it be directional transmission? so as to only direct it towards own Jets?I am not too sure about that.


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## Bratva

shaheenmissile said:


> But Karakoram Eagle has a Dedicated TV channel for Broadcasting live video feed.
> I am not saying they will use it all the time. But still.
> AWACS is too big to be hidden anyway,so i dont think transmission will give out its position alone,as its not stealth and not meant to be.
> Encryption,yes. Data packet as in short bursts of Data,instead of constant feed. Yes.
> But can it be directional transmission? so as to only direct it towards own Jets?I am not too sure about that.



That is where Software defined radio kicks in. You can define 20-30 frequencies in software on both AWAC and Jets. Begin multicasting on it. If it is being jammed or you think it will give away your location, you quickly change on to another frequency. or You can delete the frequency channel and redefine a totally new channel real time 

Consider Wireless router of your home. Too many devices attach with it slows down the communication, so you prefer 5-10 devices be attached with it.

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## shaheenmissile

Bratva said:


> That is where Software defined radio kicks in. You can define 20-30 frequencies in software on both AWAC and Jets. Begin multicasting on it. If it is being jammed or you think it will give away your location, you quickly change on to another frequency. or You can delete the frequency channel and redefine a totally new channel real time
> 
> *Consider Wireless router of your home. Too many devices attach with it slows down the communication, so you prefer 5-10 devices be attached with it*.


Fair point.
But that means two way communications? If AWACS is transmitting to Jets,the jets too are transmitting to the AWACS? Only that dual mode will put limits to how many Jets an AWACS can handle.


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## HRK

Imran Khan said:


> and we have nothing then an article boss?
> no thanks we need to see then



I *know *that's not a concrete evidence but that pic *supposedly *came out after the indecent ....

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## Bratva

shaheenmissile said:


> Fair point.
> But that means two way communications? If AWACS is transmitting to Jets,the jets too are transmitting to the AWACS? Only that dual mode will put limits to how many Jets an AWACS can handle.



Dual mode is called full duplex. Full duplex mode is by default mode of all the communication devices of 21st century. It wont put restrain on our AWAC. What will put it is Our AWACS infrastructure are setup in a way that they have to connect with relay stations to for Intra ZDK-SAAB communication, on top of of that sending info to ground commanders plus directing aircrafts plus avoiding jamming with frequent frequency channel hopping.

That's how I arrived at that number of 15-25 aircraft per awacs, An optimal number in my humble opinion.



HRK said:


> I *know *that's not a concrete evidence but that pic *supposedly *came out after the indecent ....
> 
> View attachment 253969



IIRC, not after incident, but way before that. That 2 damaged aircraft, one of them had there nose blown off. But I dont see any SAAB with blown nose

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## Imran Khan

HRK said:


> I *know *that's not a concrete evidence but that pic *supposedly *came out after the indecent ....
> 
> View attachment 253969


as i remember this pic came out before incident may be wrong but i remember it

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## shaheenmissile

KSA Erieye. They were the mystery contract from Saab for maintenance.








Bratva said:


> Dual mode is called full duplex. Full duplex mode is by default mode of all the communication devices of 21st century. It wont put restrain on our AWAC. What will put it is Our AWACS infrastructure are setup in a way that they have to connect with relay stations to for Intra ZDK-SAAB communication, on top of of that sending info to ground commanders plus directing aircrafts plus avoiding jamming with frequent frequency channel hopping.
> 
> That's how I arrived at that number of 15-25 aircraft per awacs, An optimal number in my humble opinion.


Ok,thats a Fair judgment.

This detective work was done by me. Saw the picture of a so called saudi Erieye on some Arab Forums. A close analysis on Gimp reveled this.











It was actually a Pakistani Erieye photographed in Saudia by Saudi vigilante. Was taking part in Exercise "Sword of Abdullah".

Going by that argument, i am not sure iof Pakistan will send this asset abroad if we only had one? So there have to be more?

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## ice_man

Dazzler said:


> They r quiet for an obvious reason which should be understandable.



Dazzler every time our AEW gets airborne the enemy knows it get's painted on their scopes. So who are they trying to stay quiet for


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## shaheenmissile

ice_man said:


> Dazzler every time our AEW gets airborne the enemy knows it get's painted on their scopes. *So who are they trying to stay quiet for*


TTP...................


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## airbus101

In this new song which is released by the PAF media cell the video is crisp and it shows the saab 2000 with the ending number 40 again but anyway enjoy the video


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## Quwa

Lol let's hope that the 040 serial number is a massive troll on the PAF's part, especially knowing how the information and photos that end up on this forum. And if it is a troll, I hope they don't take it so far that we only find out about the real number when they finally decommission the system some 30 years from now.


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## Tacticool

airbus101 said:


> In this new song which is released by the PAF media cell the video is crisp and it shows the saab 2000 with the ending number 40 again but anyway enjoy the video


We should not show terrorists with Islamic symbols, like 'Al-jihad' slogan and beards and turbans. We should just show them like terrorists. If we have bonded these Islamic symbols to terrorism in our mind , then i should say with grief that the enemies of Islam and Pakistan have won. If a group wear a Sikh like turban and grow their hairs and do terrorism that does not mean religious Sikhs are terrorists but that would only mean the one who does so is terrorist. Unfortunately the enemies of Islam and Pakistan have used our cultural and religious symbols with terrorism so that they could drive us away from them. I should say if we believe that prophet was the best man in humans then i have to say that I cannot accept that A wisest man was so steady in adopting beard and turban if it was unnecessary. Any thing associated with perfect man is perfect itself.


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## Bratva

Mark Sien said:


> Lol let's hope that the 040 serial number is a massive troll on the PAF's part, especially knowing how the information and photos that end up on this forum. And if it is a troll, I hope they don't take it so far that we only find out about the real number when they finally decommission the system some 30 years from now.



It's been what 3 years since the attack ? Saffron bandit 2013,2014. Saab AWAC in PAF promotional videos, Waj S Khan documentary on SAAB Awac, SAAB awacs spotted in Saudi Arabia. All bearing 10040 serial number.Only one inference can be deduced.


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## aliyusuf

In my humble opinion, after reading countless accounts and views on how many are operational and how many were actually destroyed or damaged ... in the past few years since the Saab-2000 Eri-Eye attack, I would dare to say that out of the 4 Eri-Eye Saab-2000 platforms purchased and received ... 1 was totally destroyed, 1 was damaged but recoverable, 1 whose nose cone was damaged beyond repair was not deemed 100% recoverable and 1 escaped unscathed i.e. the only one which keeps showing up whenever Eri-Eye Saab-2000 platform is displayed.

Also kindly note that the trainer version (a fifth and plane i.e. w/o the the radar Saab-2000) is no longer being spotted anymore (I may be wrong about this though). My guess is that the damaged platforms are in the process of being recovered and somehow the trainer version is being utilized to house the AEW equipment of the one which had lost it's nose cone. I read somewhere (which itself was a speculation) that we will be getting the damaged but not destroyed platforms by 2017.

However whatever I have written is guess work and speculation on what I have been reading over the last 3 years on the subject and will be most glad to be proven wrong .. in fact I am hoping to be proven wrong.


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## Imran Khan

terrorists numbers was less then numbers of fighter jets in video . its overkill


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## Bilal Khan 777

aliyusuf said:


> In my humble opinion, after reading countless accounts and views on how many are operational and how many were actually destroyed or damaged ... in the past few years since the Saab-2000 Eri-Eye attack, I would dare to say that out of the 4 Eri-Eye Saab-2000 platforms purchased and received ... 1 was totally destroyed, 1 was damaged but recoverable, 1 whose nose cone was damaged beyond repair was not deemed 100% recoverable and 1 escaped unscathed i.e. the only one which keeps showing up whenever Eri-Eye Saab-2000 platform is displayed.
> 
> Also kindly note that the trainer version (a fifth and plane i.e. w/o the the radar Saab-2000) is no longer being spotted anymore (I may be wrong about this though). My guess is that the damaged platforms are in the process of being recovered and somehow the trainer version is being utilized to house the AEW equipment of the one which had lost it's nose cone. I read somewhere (which itself was a speculation) that we will be getting the damaged but not destroyed platforms by 2017.
> 
> However whatever I have written is guess work and speculation on what I have been reading over the last 3 years on the subject and will be most glad to be proven wrong .. in fact I am hoping to be proven wrong.



I don't know when the official story will come out, and tell truth to the Pakistani people. I guess the most embarrassing moment in the history of PAF is kept quiet and lies and deception is thrown around. Remember that this action is largely speculated as State-Actor Sponsored in guide of Non-State Actors, and operations of these aircraft shall remain in secrecy and mystery moving forward, as much as you children here will allow with your super observation on small things.

The Truth Remains: During the attack in Minhas, three aircraft were parked together when they were attacked. The one in the middle got completely burned, but its burning itself gave intense heat to the ones parked on left and right, damaging them intensely. Anything else anyone tells you is far from the truth.

PAF has done intensive work in recovering both aircraft, and have succeeded, both recovering the birds and their electronic equipment. However, they are keeping the birds under wraps till all the trials are done. They will be shown to the people one by one in its due time. Meanwhile, only two aircraft are serviceable, the one that you have rightly noticed always, and the civil version. Contrary to the speculation, the civil version has not been cannibalised to fix the damaged aircraft. 

There is no SAAB blacklisting for Pakistan. This is utter rubbish. SAAB is represented by Majid and very well connected and doing business and supporting their equipment across all three armed forces.

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## Quwa

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I don't know when the official story will come out, and tell truth to the Pakistani people. I guess the most embarrassing moment in the history of PAF is kept quiet and lies and deception is thrown around. Remember that this action is largely speculated as State-Actor Sponsored in guide of Non-State Actors, and operations of these aircraft shall remain in secrecy and mystery moving forward, as much as you children here will allow with your super observation on small things.
> 
> The Truth Remains: During the attack in Minhas, three aircraft were parked together when they were attacked. The one in the middle got completely burned, but its burning itself gave intense heat to the ones parked on left and right, damaging them intensely. Anything else anyone tells you is far from the truth.
> 
> PAF has done intensive work in recovering both aircraft, and have succeeded, both recovering the birds and their electronic equipment. However, they are keeping the birds under wraps till all the trials are done. They will be shown to the people one by one in its due time. Meanwhile, only two aircraft are serviceable, the one that you have rightly noticed always, and the civil version. Contrary to the speculation, the civil version has not been cannibalised to fix the damaged aircraft.
> 
> There is no SAAB blacklisting for Pakistan. This is utter rubbish. SAAB is represented by Majid and very well connected and doing business and supporting their equipment across all three armed forces.


Well said, and I also recall Haris Khan from PakDef stating that the trainer Saab 2000 will eventually be integrated with the system, bringing the fleet back to the original 4. As for the blacklisting, I think in a couple of years Pakistan can ask Sweden to lift it, especially if a second democratic transition of powers occurs via elections.

Also, if the Saab program is dead or down to 1 AEW&C and is to remain this way forever, then the PAF would become deadly serious about filling that gap, and we'd begin hearing about it showing interest in additional ZDK03 or even replacement Erieye from Sweden.

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## انگریز

It looks Like PAF has dedicated 040 Saab for public viewing. And 001 ZDK for public viewing.
No other serial number from.both AWACS fleet ever appears in Public.

Saab Erieye which Pakistan got were "heavily edited" versions without any ELINT or SIGINT capability. Only plain AWACS. No open source software,, no permission of integrating new sensors.
ZDK at much cheaper price are full blown AEW&C with ELINT , SIGINT.
Open source firmware, and adaptable source code to integrate new sensors and capabilities.
I wont be crying at PAF not using Erieye at all , for whatever reason.

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## Viper0011.

Mark Sien said:


> Usman Ansari wrote that 3 Erieye were active with PAF



2 Active, 3rd destroyed and 4h damaged but it might get repaired as the Radar wasn't damaged well beyond limitations. But it might not get repaired as you could get better and longer range capability from the Chinese (your current AWACS). Saab on the other hands would charge north of $ 20-25 million to repair the Radar (and more if its damaged severely). But for about $ 50-60 million, you could get the entire brand spanking new Chinese radar. And the news ones they have, similar to Saab, you could get for probably 40% lesser price.


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## Quwa

انگریز said:


> It looks Like PAF has dedicated 040 Saab for public viewing. And 001 ZDK for public viewing.
> No other serial number from.both AWACS fleet ever appears in Public.
> 
> Saab Erieye which Pakistan got were "heavily edited" versions without any ELINT or SIGINT capability. Only plain AWACS. No open source software,, no permission of integrating new sensors.
> ZDK at much cheaper price are full blown AEW&C with ELINT , SIGINT.
> Open source firmware, and adaptable source code to integrate new sensors and capabilities.
> I wont be crying at PAF not using Erieye at all , for whatever reason.


Don't forget the opportunity to actually learn the developmental process behind the technology in China, the ZDK03 could very well end up being the groundwork program for indigenous initiatives in the future. It would be awesome if we could actually build or at least integrate the AESA radars and subsystems at home with a platform of our choice.


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## SQ8

انگریز said:


> It looks Like PAF has dedicated 040 Saab for public viewing. And 001 ZDK for public viewing.
> No other serial number from.both AWACS fleet ever appears in Public.
> 
> Saab Erieye which Pakistan got were "heavily edited" versions without any ELINT or SIGINT capability. Only plain AWACS. No open source software,, no permission of integrating new sensors.
> ZDK at much cheaper price are full blown AEW&C with ELINT , SIGINT.
> Open source firmware, and adaptable source code to integrate new sensors and capabilities.
> I wont be crying at PAF not using Erieye at all , for whatever reason.



The ZDKs are also taking hits, this time from the many gulls and crows that line up Masroor since people dump all their trash near the runway.

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## Indus Falcon

Oscar said:


> The ZDKs are also taking hits, this time from the many gulls and crows that line up Masroor since people dump all their trash near the runway.


How is the data link between the ZDK's and the F16's ? any compatibility issues?


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## SQ8

Indus Falcon said:


> How is the data link between the ZDK's and the F16's ? any compatibility issues?


If it meets the requirements of the protocol, there will be no issues. The compatibility issues that I remember from 2011 are based off trying to get the encrypt/decrypt modules to work between the two. 
And our standard datalink in not Link 16. Its a hybrid of 16 and 22.

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## Indus Falcon

Oscar said:


> If it meets the requirements of the protocol, there will be no issues. The compatibility issues that I remember from 2011 are based off trying to get the encrypt/decrypt modules to work between the two.
> And our standard datalink in not Link 16. Its a hybrid of 16 and 22.



That's why my earlier question. So it's working fine now?


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## انگریز

Mark Sien said:


> Don't forget the opportunity to actually learn the developmental process behind the technology in China, the ZDK03 could very well end up being the groundwork program for indigenous initiatives in the future. It would be awesome if we could actually build or at least integrate the AESA radars and subsystems at home with a platform of our choice.


Much work has been done on AESA by NUST and some other universities.
If funding is available and need arises,an AESA can be made at home..


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## Bilal Khan 777

Mark Sien said:


> Well said, and I also recall Haris Khan from PakDef stating that the trainer Saab 2000 will eventually be integrated with the system, bringing the fleet back to the original 4. As for the blacklisting, I think in a couple of years Pakistan can ask Sweden to lift it, especially if a second democratic transition of powers occurs via elections.
> 
> Also, if the Saab program is dead or down to 1 AEW&C and is to remain this way forever, then the PAF would become deadly serious about filling that gap, and we'd begin hearing about it showing interest in additional ZDK03 or even replacement Erieye from Sweden.



The civil version is part of the program, where it helps pilots convert to the platform. As i mention, there is no blacklisting. SAAB sold heavily into the to DRDO program, and hence has created their own conflict of interest. SAAB continues to support PAF with its program. This is one of the most expensive radars in the world, and Pakistan does not have more money to buy the same system.

Out of the four, three remain, aircraft and radars. There are no gaps as ZDK is now fully operational and integrated. Any future airborne radars will likely be continuation of the ZDK03 program.



انگریز said:


> Much work has been done on AESA by NUST and some other universities.
> If funding is available and need arises,an AESA can be made at home..



Wish it was that simple, the the Koreans would do it before us.



انگریز said:


> It looks Like PAF has dedicated 040 Saab for public viewing. And 001 ZDK for public viewing.
> No other serial number from.both AWACS fleet ever appears in Public.
> 
> Saab Erieye which Pakistan got were "heavily edited" versions without any ELINT or SIGINT capability. Only plain AWACS. No open source software,, no permission of integrating new sensors.
> ZDK at much cheaper price are full blown AEW&C with ELINT , SIGINT.
> Open source firmware, and adaptable source code to integrate new sensors and capabilities.
> I wont be crying at PAF not using Erieye at all , for whatever reason.


We go what we paid for.


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## nomi007

only 2-3 saab are currently active service


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## ice_man

انگریز said:


> It looks Like PAF has dedicated 040 Saab for public viewing. And 001 ZDK for public viewing.
> No other serial number from.both AWACS fleet ever appears in Public.
> 
> Saab Erieye which Pakistan got were "heavily edited" versions without any ELINT or SIGINT capability. Only plain AWACS. No open source software,, no permission of integrating new sensors.
> ZDK at much cheaper price are full blown AEW&C with ELINT , SIGINT.
> Open source firmware, and adaptable source code to integrate new sensors and capabilities.
> I wont be crying at PAF not using Erieye at all , for whatever reason.



Incorrect. the SAABs came equipped as a full package. the ELINT,SIGINT. They were not edited versions. 

The problem though was that SAAB clearly said NO when we wished to integrate them with our Chinese fighters. The LINK 16s cannot work with Chinese fighters.


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## volatile

In your response there was a project initiated for connecting Chinese AEWC with F-16 and in this regard the idea was to share data on a common ground base station first then transmit it to F-16 dont know the current status but i do remember there was some lag in data .


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## araz

Mark Sien said:


> Don't forget the opportunity to actually learn the developmental process behind the technology in China, the ZDK03 could very well end up being the groundwork program for indigenous initiatives in the future. It would be awesome if we could actually build or at least integrate the AESA radars and subsystems at home with a platform of our choice.


Resource constraints mean that inspite of interest we will not be going down the street. Our need is in small numbers, we will always be buying off the shelf products. I think we will specifically get on the smaller AESA bandwagon and gain from that. However there will be no free lunch on that either from the Chinese and they will be looking at making money out of it. On this front however, there is merit in spending some money.


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## dilpakistani

پاکستانی ماہرین نےاواکس طیارے کی مرمت کرکےملکی خزانےکےڈیڑھ ارب روپے بچالیے - ایکسپریس اردو

Pakistan has been able to make destroyed awacs operational again!!!


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## Jango

Not destroyed, damaged.


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## Bilal Khan 777

dilpakistani said:


> پاکستانی ماہرین نےاواکس طیارے کی مرمت کرکےملکی خزانےکےڈیڑھ ارب روپے بچالیے - ایکسپریس اردو
> 
> Pakistan has been able to make destroyed awacs operational again!!!



This is exactly as I recently predicted. Out of the two damaged aircraft, one would be rolled out now and other will be shortly follow. Kudos to PAC for recovery of damaged SAAB 2000s.

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## ice_man

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This is exactly as I recently predicted. Out of the two damaged aircraft, one would be rolled out now and other will be shortly follow. Kudos to PAC for recovery of damaged SAAB 2000s.



I AM SURE the SWEDES helped us. PAC couldn't have done it on their own. 

and lastly the third one i heard has it electronic suite "cooked" due to the heat of the one that was destroyed.


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## nomi007

ice_man said:


> I AM SURE the SWEDES helped us. PAC couldn't have done it on their own.
> 
> and lastly the third one i heard has it electronic suite "cooked" due to the heat of the one that was destroyed.


with out saab we can repair them


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## Bilal Khan 777

ice_man said:


> I AM SURE the SWEDES helped us. PAC couldn't have done it on their own.
> 
> and lastly the third one i heard has it electronic suite "cooked" due to the heat of the one that was destroyed.



SAAB, in this case, is the OEM both the aircraft, and most of its electronics. Without OEM support, no repairs are possible. Rest is all claims. OEM must have been engaged, but PAF is crafty and smart, and they must have bought a lot of material from the market for lower prices from what SAAB was quoting. Only proprietary items would have gone to SAAB.

Both aircraft were cooked with the middle one on fire. While one is recovered, the other one shall also be recovered and on its way. Again, PAC has earned it.


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## razgriz19

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> SAAB, in this case, is the OEM both the aircraft, and most of its electronics. Without OEM support, no repairs are possible. Rest is all claims. OEM must have been engaged, but PAF is crafty and smart, and they must have bought a lot of material from the market for lower prices from what SAAB was quoting. Only proprietary items would have gone to SAAB.
> 
> Both aircraft were cooked with the middle one on fire. While one is recovered, the other one shall also be recovered and on its way. Again, PAC has earned it.



Any changes or any major work done to the aircraft must be approved the manufacture. PAF probably submitted a repair diagram which Saab approved. It's called STC or Supplemental Type Certificate, they need that to carry out repairs. The rest is just basic sheet metal work, its no rocket science. I'm just talking about the aircraft here, not the systems. 

Any damage to the radar system is a different story. That can't be repaired, you would have to replace parts to make it airworthy again.

And about the price, every shop/manufacture would quote the price twice as much to make profit. Standard practice in business. PAF just performed the repair in house and it costed them half as much since they're not making any profit on it. 

I'm still skeptical about the aircraft though. I'll celebrate when i see some pictures. There are a lot baseless rumors going around on this forum

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## Donatello

razgriz19 said:


> Any changes or any major work done to the aircraft must be approved the manufacture. PAF probably submitted a repair diagram which Saab approved. It's called STC or Supplemental Type Certificate, they need that to carry out repairs. The rest is just basic sheet metal work, its no rocket science. I'm just talking about the aircraft here, not the systems.
> 
> Any damage to the radar system is a different story. That can't be repaired, you would have to replace parts to make it airworthy again.
> 
> And about the price, every shop/manufacture would quote the price twice as much to make profit. Standard practice in business. PAF just performed the repair in house and it costed them half as much since they're not making any profit on it.
> 
> I'm still skeptical about the aircraft though. I'll celebrate when i see some pictures. There are a lot baseless rumors going around on this forum



I think manufacturer approval is needed when the aircraft is under warranty and thus you must do the repairs in their authorized way or when the aircraft is a commercial airliner for passengers, in which case the repair must comply with the approval given by the relevant aviation regulator.

Since these airframes were bought used and were not in commercial operation, PAF can do whatever it wants, unless of course restricted by insurance/warranty claims.


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## syed_yusuf

there report said that PAF has fixed one destroyed example not damaged

so this is the one burned but not completely written off other 2 were damaged


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## Viper0011.

syed_yusuf said:


> there report said that PAF has fixed one destroyed example not damaged
> 
> so this is the one burned but not completely written off other 2 were damaged



That's correct. I just posted it on a different thread. The PAF is mounting the repaired Radar onto a Saab Platform (assuming its the Test one, the 5th plane?). They've done a couple of weeks of ground testing on the repaired radar and will now be conducting flight tests once its on an airborne platform. 

If the Radar works like it's supposed to, the PAF has now learned everything about the Erieye also. They can probably get parts from the international market (COTS products) and make a derivative of this Erieye themselves. It may not be 100% of the Erieye, but even 80% with 60% less budget would be a huge accomplishment. They fixed it within $ 10 million when the cost to get it fixed through Saab was around $ 40-50 million. This is truly awesome work 



Donatello said:


> I think manufacturer approval is needed when the aircraft is under warranty and thus you must do the repairs in their authorized way.



The Swedes suggestd Pakistan buy a $ 20 million (ish) warranty and insurance. Pakistan refused to and suffered because of that. Otherwise, everything would've been covered. The manufacturer's OEM warranty doesn't cover terrorist attacks. It just covers equipment's working under regular circumstances. Anyway, Pakistani used their tech resources, knowledge base, technical material provided for support, ordered parts and got this puppy fixed and working internally for 1/5th of the cost. Also gained significant experience in the design of this puppy too. Good job to PAF's engineers.

After such a complex initiative, they can probably overhaul and fix these internally, even built another version with COTS products too, if all the manufacturing and mechanical equipment is available.


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## syed_yusuf

this means PAF is (will be shortly) back with 8 AEWCS in the air

awesome news


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## volatile

I think this lesson should be learn to make our own derivative of Radar as If now we have experience of SAAB hardware & architecture so we can pretty much make our own pltform.


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## hassan1



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## Imran Khan

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 255539


what this baby doing i city


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## انگریز

Thats Sargodha i guess.


Imran Khan said:


> what this baby doing i city


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## Imran Khan

انگریز said:


> Thats Sargodha i guess.


that look to me chaklala boss


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## Donatello

Viper0011. said:


> The Swedes suggestd Pakistan buy a $ 20 million (ish) warranty and insurance. Pakistan refused to and suffered because of that. Otherwise, everything would've been covered. The manufacturer's OEM warranty doesn't cover terrorist attacks. It just covers equipment's working under regular circumstances. Anyway, Pakistani used their tech resources, knowledge base, technical material provided for support, ordered parts and got this puppy fixed and working internally for 1/5th of the cost. Also gained significant experience in the design of this puppy too. Good job to PAF's engineers.
> 
> After such a complex initiative, they can probably overhaul and fix these internally, even built another version with COTS products too, if all the manufacturing and mechanical equipment is available.



If PAF didn't have insurance to specifically cover for terrorist attacks, then insurance wouldn't mean anything in this case.


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## hassan1



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## ice_man

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 255600
> 
> 
> View attachment 255600
> 
> 
> View attachment 255601



THIS IS NOT an AEW plane my friend.

this is the ordinary transport one


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## Viper0011.

Donatello said:


> If PAF didn't have insurance to specifically cover for terrorist attacks, then insurance wouldn't mean anything in this case.



No, you didn't understand. When you buy anything (including a laptop from Dell), there is two types of warranty / insurance offered:

1) OEM (manufacturer's): means if the laptop, in a specified amount of time, fails to work or parts of it, the manufacturer will fix it under manufacturer's warranty. This includes a computer is an office, just failing because the main board, CPU, LCD or the memory circuits went bad.

2) Any other reason why something stopped working. This now includes events like a car accident or coffee spill, kids throwing the laptop on the ground from the top of the shelf. Meaning some incident, not normal, done by humans or mother nature caused it, like a Hurricane or Tornado. These aren't covered under OEM warranty. These are defined as accidents or catastrophic events. So in Saab's case, this is the type of warranty / insurance they asked Pakistan to buy at the time of sale and Pakistan didn't.

Now if there wasn't a terrorist attack and these planes were in the hangers or flying normal, and one AESA went out, Saab will replace it for free, as long as the request was made in the time-frame allowed by OEM warranty. This is pretty common and a standard practice for all manufacturers.


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## Bossman

No insurance is available to militaries


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## shaheenmissile

Exif Data of this picture posted by @hassan1 shows the picture was taken on 21-August-2015. that is enough evidence that the VIP/Transport SAAB 2000 was not converted to Erieye AWACS as predicted by many.
That also means that whatever airframe was repaired by PAF was in good enough shape after terrorist attack,so as to not needing replacement,just repairs.
This also debunks many claims over here that 2 were incinerated and one was damaged beyond repain and will need a whole new body.


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## fatman17

No 13 Erieye squadron returns to full strength 


Pakistan AF Erieye Repaired After Damage in Terrorist Attack

Posted on 11 September, 2015



Pakistan Air Force Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C aircraft 10-025 at Dubai on November 17, 2011. The PAF Erieye fleet is now back up to full strength following repair of the example that was damaged in a terorist attack on August 16, 2012. Dmitriy Pichugin

A PAKISTAN Air Force (PAF) Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control aircraft has been returned to service, three years after being extensively damaged during a terrorist attack on PAF Base Kamra-Minhas. The aircraft was officially declared operational again with 13 Squadron at Minhas yesterday, September 10, after being repaired by the co-located Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), according to local media source Dunya News.

As previously reported on AFD, the aircraft, identity still unknown, was parked in its hangar at Kamra-Minhas on August 16, 2012, when a rocket-propelled grenade was fired at the hangar wall. Shrapnel from the explosion of the RPG caused serious damage to the Erieye.

An initial inspection by engineers from PAC Kamra on the following day indicated that the aircraft should be repairable. Subsequently, on February 6, 2013, Pakistan Defence Secretary Lt Gen (retired) Azra Fazal Pechuho told a meeting of Pakistan’s National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence that the aircraft had been assessed as damaged beyond repair. It appears, however, that later re-assessment determined it could be repaired after all. A meeting of the Senate Standing Committee on Defence Production was informed yesterday that US aircraft engineers had estimated the cost of rebuilding the aircraft at $30 million, but Pakistani personnel had completed the work for just $15 million, over a period of ten months.

The PAF took delivery of four Saab 2000 Erieyes, the first of which was delivered on December 8, 2009. The repair of the damaged aircraft now brings 13 Squadron back up to full strength. The unit also flies a single Saab 2000 in standard passenger configuration, which is used for crew training. AFD-Dave Allport


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## shaheenmissile

fatman17 said:


> *No 13 Erieye squadron returns to full strength *
> 
> 
> Pakistan AF Erieye Repaired After Damage in Terrorist Attack
> 
> Posted on 11 September, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C aircraft 10-025 at Dubai on November 17, 2011. The PAF Erieye fleet is now back up to full strength following repair of the example that was damaged in a terorist attack on August 16, 2012. Dmitriy Pichugin
> 
> A PAKISTAN Air Force (PAF) Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control aircraft has been returned to service, three years after being extensively damaged during a terrorist attack on PAF Base Kamra-Minhas. The aircraft was officially declared operational again with 13 Squadron at Minhas yesterday, September 10, after being repaired by the co-located Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), according to local media source Dunya News.
> 
> As previously reported on AFD, the aircraft, identity still unknown, was parked in its hangar at Kamra-Minhas on August 16, 2012, when a rocket-propelled grenade was fired at the hangar wall. Shrapnel from the explosion of the RPG caused serious damage to the Erieye.
> 
> An initial inspection by engineers from PAC Kamra on the following day indicated that the aircraft should be repairable. Subsequently, on February 6, 2013, Pakistan Defence Secretary Lt Gen (retired) Azra Fazal Pechuho told a meeting of Pakistan’s National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence that the aircraft had been assessed as damaged beyond repair. It appears, however, that later re-assessment determined it could be repaired after all. A meeting of the Senate Standing Committee on Defence Production was informed yesterday that US aircraft engineers had estimated the cost of rebuilding the aircraft at $30 million, but Pakistani personnel had completed the work for just $15 million, over a period of ten months.
> 
> The PAF took delivery of four Saab 2000 Erieyes, the first of which was delivered on December 8, 2009. The repair of the damaged aircraft now brings 13 Squadron back up to full strength. The unit also flies a single Saab 2000 in standard passenger configuration, which is used for crew training. AFD-Dave Allport


10025 was damaged.

Full strength means now all Erieye operational?


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## Viper0011.

shaheenmissile said:


> Exif Data of this picture posted by @hassan1 shows the picture was taken on 21-August-2015. that is enough evidence that the VIP/Transport SAAB 2000 was not converted to Erieye AWACS as predicted by many..



I don't think this is a point to even argue about. If they didn't use the Saab (Test / VIP) than obviously they restored the one which was hit. Even better for the PAF 

However, there were also discussions a while ago about using the Shanxi or the CN platform for more room. Saab cleared it as they said the item isn't under warranty. So if somehow Pakistan was able to restore it, they are welcome to use it or throw it away. Basically they washed their hands from this entire deal since the sanctions were put on. So at this time, Pakistan is able to use a bigger platform for this too. Not sure if that would happen but let's see what comes out.



shaheenmissile said:


> Full strength means now all Erieye operational?



To be honest with you, I'd love to see all Erieye's in one picture. What was said many times was that one Saab was destroyed and the other one was seriously damaged, and the radar may have been damaged beyond repairs. So the later would be fixed. Again, this is speculation on my end right now as to how many are actually functional, so I'd like to see some proof before believing it.

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## fatman17

shaheenmissile said:


> 10025 was damaged.
> 
> Full strength means now all Erieye operational?



If you understand English then yes


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## shaheenmissile

fatman17 said:


> If you understand English then yes


No spreken ze englis


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## Bilal Khan 777

The lies and deception continue. Three aircraft were attacked, two badly damaged, and one destroyed/written off. Out of the two damaged, one has been made serviceable again by PAC, and work is underway on the second one.

Both PAC and SAAB have participated, and commercial market suppliers have also assisted.

Civil configuration aircraft has not been converted.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> If you understand English then yes


So we have 9 AWACS now 5 Karakoram Eagle and 4 SAAB this is impressive man truly impressive


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## ice_man

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> The lies and deception continue. Three aircraft were attacked, two badly damaged, and one destroyed/written off. Out of the two damaged, one has been made serviceable again by PAC, and work is underway on the second one.
> 
> Both PAC and SAAB have participated, and commercial market suppliers have also assisted.
> 
> Civil configuration aircraft has not been converted.



teray moun mein ghee shaakaar if the third one also becomes operational. 

@fatman17 BUT BUT BUT...........................OK got it boss


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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> The lies and deception continue. Three aircraft were attacked, two badly damaged, and one destroyed/written off. Out of the two damaged, one has been made serviceable again by PAC, and work is underway on the second one.
> 
> Both PAC and SAAB have participated, and commercial market suppliers have also assisted.
> 
> Civil configuration aircraft has not been converted.


No lies two jets were attacked one Air Refueller which pretty much melted due to sheer heat and one AWAC and the AWAC is fully recovered now


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## Windjammer

Zarvan said:


> No lies two jets were attacked one Air Refueller which pretty much melted due to sheer heat and one AWAC and the AWAC is fully recovered now


Please don't go around creating stories, if a refueller started burning, can you imagine the smoke and fire rising out of the base..... show me a single image where any smoke is seen coming out of Kamra base.

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## Bratva

shaheenmissile said:


> Exif Data of this picture posted by @hassan1 shows the picture was taken on 21-August-2015. that is enough evidence that the VIP/Transport SAAB 2000 was not converted to Erieye AWACS as predicted by many.
> That also means that whatever airframe was repaired by PAF was in good enough shape after terrorist attack,so as to not needing replacement,just repairs.
> This also debunks many claims over here that 2 were incinerated and one was damaged beyond repain and will need a whole new body.



I like that when people make wild claims forgetting what Undersecretary of Defense claimed in Parliamentary briefing in 2013. 

Do you have evidence which can supersede Secretary defense claims one was completely destroyed in attack while one was damaged ?


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## ice_man

what is the loiter time for ZDK?

secondly ZDK how many stations does it have?

i know @Windjammer you shared a pic of the interior with around 10 stations. that seemed more like the KJ2000 rather than ZDK03.

Lastly are the work stations longitudinal or side facing? Operators have to physically lean sideways to counter the plane's orientation during climbs, dives and banks. This puts enormous physical stress on the operators where flights often last 7-8 hours. So it is not preferred.


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## Bilal Khan 777

Bratva said:


> I like that when people make wild claims forgetting what Undersecretary of Defense claimed in Parliamentary briefing in 2013.
> 
> Do you have evidence which can supersede Secretary defense claims one was completely destroyed in attack while one was damaged ?



Bureaucrats are rats which repeat what they are told.



Zarvan said:


> No lies two jets were attacked one Air Refueller which pretty much melted due to sheer heat and one AWAC and the AWAC is fully recovered now



And who told you that? I stand by my claim.



ice_man said:


> teray moun mein ghee shaakaar if the third one also becomes operational.
> 
> @fatman17 BUT BUT BUT...........................OK got it boss



Indeed, the second bird will also be serviceable shortly. The electronics are all SV, and work on aircraft is underway.



Windjammer said:


> Please don't go around creating stories, if a refueller started burning, can you imagine the smoke and fire rising out of the base..... show me a single image where any smoke is seen coming out of Kamra base.



No IL78 or any jets were attacked. The Insurgents had only target, and that was SAAB 2000 and its pilots. The pilots evaded the attackers, and terrorists were all shot by DSG, but by that time, the damage was done.

For friends who need references:

Aerial Eyes: Pakistan’s New AWACS Fleets

The article clearly says one destroyed, two badly damaged, and the amount of money being paid to SAAB for repair.

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## razgriz19

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> The lies and deception continue. Three aircraft were attacked, two badly damaged, and one destroyed/written off. Out of the two damaged, one has been made serviceable again by PAC, and work is underway on the second one.
> 
> Both PAC and SAAB have participated, and commercial market suppliers have also assisted.
> 
> Civil configuration aircraft has not been converted.



Correct Sir. I won't celebrate unless i see some picture evidence.
If they have fixed one aircraft that just brings the number to two aircraft


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## ziaulislam

so basically we still dont know whether all four are operational or three operational now
i just need an answeer to this question
3 or 4?


----------



## razgriz19

ice_man said:


> what is the loiter time for ZDK?
> 
> secondly ZDK how many stations does it have?
> 
> i know @Windjammer you shared a pic of the interior with around 10 stations. that seemed more like the KJ2000 rather than ZDK03.
> 
> Lastly are the work stations longitudinal or side facing? Operators have to physically lean sideways to counter the plane's orientation during climbs, dives and banks. This puts enormous physical stress on the operators where flights often last 7-8 hours. So it is not preferred.



you know they have sideways chairs in private jets as well, and those things have faster rate of climb than turboprops and are more agile.
But anyway the ones installed on the ZDK swivel around so during take off


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## Bilal Khan 777

ziaulislam said:


> so basically we still dont know whether all four are operational or three operational now
> i just need an answeer to this question
> 3 or 4?



02 AEW are SV, 01 Trainer is SV, 01 under repair, 01 written off.

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## araz

Viper0011. said:


> That's correct. I just posted it on a different thread. The PAF is mounting the repaired Radar onto a Saab Platform (assuming its the Test one, the 5th plane?). They've done a couple of weeks of ground testing on the repaired radar and will now be conducting flight tests once its on an airborne platform.
> 
> If the Radar works like it's supposed to, the PAF has now learned everything about the Erieye also. They can probably get parts from the international market (COTS products) and make a derivative of this Erieye themselves. It may not be 100% of the Erieye, but even 80% with 60% less budget would be a huge accomplishment. They fixed it within $ 10 million when the cost to get it fixed through Saab was around $ 40-50 million. This is truly awesome work
> 
> 
> 
> The Swedes suggestd Pakistan buy a $ 20 million (ish) warranty and insurance. Pakistan refused to and suffered because of that. Otherwise, everything would've been covered. The manufacturer's OEM warranty doesn't cover terrorist attacks. It just covers equipment's working under regular circumstances. Anyway, Pakistani used their tech resources, knowledge base, technical material provided for support, ordered parts and got this puppy fixed and working internally for 1/5th of the cost. Also gained significant experience in the design of this puppy too. Good job to PAF's engineers.
> 
> After such a complex initiative, they can probably overhaul and fix these internally, even built another version with COTS products too, if all the manufacturing and mechanical equipment is available.





Bilal Khan 777 said:


> The lies and deception continue. Three aircraft were attacked, two badly damaged, and one destroyed/written off. Out of the two damaged, one has been made serviceable again by PAC, and work is underway on the second one.
> 
> Both PAC and SAAB have participated, and commercial market suppliers have also assisted.
> 
> Civil configuration aircraft has not been converted.


Bilal Khan.
May I know on what basis you are posting somethkng totally contrary to the information which has officially been provided. We dont quite know what is your background and what you have been upto till now. As such and please dont assume this to be disrespectful I would like to know your sources/experience before we understand why youare saying so. 
Awaiting a response


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## Lightning Soul

There's some sort of ambiguity that still remains with the operationality of the SAAB Erieye Fleet. What I've inferred or read was that one SAAB Erieye was completely destroyed which was in the middle. The 2 on the sides were also got damaged due to it. 
One was minor damaged and the other suffered a major one.
The minor one was already repaired and the major one is taken back into fleet now after heavy repairs.
And one which we keep seeing in all the promotional videos which is totally fine.
So that makes 3 SAAB Erieye Operational and 1 Transport version Minus 1 SAAB Erieye which got completely destroyed (which may get replaced eventually? ) so that makes a total of 4 SAAB 2000 Aircraft in the fleet.


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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> Bilal Khan.
> May I know on what basis you are posting somethkng totally contrary to the information which has officially been provided. We dont quite know what is your background and what you have been upto till now. As such and please dont assume this to be disrespectful I would like to know your sources/experience before we understand why youare saying so.
> Awaiting a response


official version says one was repaired, so whats the strength right now? what can i infer from report on dunya is that one was majority damage that was first called as salvageable but than told be not salvageable. That one is made back into service so we should be 4+1.

so question is
are we back to 4+1 SAAB 
or
are we up to the strength 3+1?


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## The Deterrent

PAF is in process of building 5 more aircraft hangars at multiple airbases similar to the ones at Minhas AB built for 3x ZDK-03s. Did PAF place an additional order of any AEW &C Aircrafts?

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## umair86

People keep on saying that 1 wss written off but did anyone has a proof to back up his statement secondly there wss no smoke seen after terrorist attack that an aircraft is on fire. Only small puffs here and there.


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## ice_man

umair86 said:


> People keep on saying that 1 wss written off but did anyone has a proof to back up his statement secondly there wss no smoke seen after terrorist attack that an aircraft is on fire. Only small puffs here and there.



bhai i hope we were as optimistic at you even after pictures came out here you go:

ereiye - Google Search



ereiye - Google Search



umair86 said:


> People keep on saying that 1 wss written off but did anyone has a proof to back up his statement secondly there wss no smoke seen after terrorist attack that an aircraft is on fire. Only small puffs here and there.



bhai i hope we were as optimistic at you even after pictures came out here you go:

ereiye - Google Search



ereiye - Google Search


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## Lightning Soul

ice_man said:


> bhai i hope we were as optimistic at you even after pictures came out here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bhai i hope we were as optimistic at you even after pictures came out here you go:


Sir what are you trying to show? There's not a single pic in the above mentioned links which is showing a SAAB 2000 being destroyed. Only 1 pic shows an aircraft burning but that was from PNS Mehran base Attack not Kamra's incident.
PS i do think that one SAAB Erieye got completely destroyed but no concrete (digital) evidence is available of its destruction. Although some Minister statement confirmed about the destruction of 1 SAAB back then. I think 4 SAAB are operational now 3 AWACS and 1 Transport version


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## razgriz19

umair86 said:


> People keep on saying that 1 wss written off but did anyone has a proof to back up his statement secondly there wss no smoke seen after terrorist attack that an aircraft is on fire. Only small puffs here and there.









Do you know what this is?
Fire Suppression, it goes off when it detects any heat signature. This could be one of the reasons why there wasn't any smoke coming out of the hangar!



umair86 said:


> People keep on saying that 1 wss written off but did anyone has a proof to back up his statement secondly there wss no smoke seen after terrorist attack that an aircraft is on fire. Only small puffs here and there.








Do you know what this is?
Fire Suppression, it goes off when it detects any heat signature. This could be one of the reasons why there wasn't any smoke coming out of the hangar!


Lightning Soul said:


> Sir what are you trying to show? There's not a single pic in the above mentioned links which is showing a SAAB 2000 being destroyed. Only 1 pic shows an aircraft burning but that was from PNS Mehran base Attack not Kamra's incident.
> PS i do think that one SAAB Erieye got completely destroyed but no concrete (digital) evidence is available of its destruction. Although some Minister statement confirmed about the destruction of 1 SAAB back then. I think 4 SAAB are operational now 3 AWACS and 1 Transport version



Do you have pictures of other 3 Saabs Eriye?
Post them now if they are operational like you said thy are

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## Bratva

umair86 said:


> People keep on saying that 1 wss written off but did anyone has a proof to back up his statement secondly there wss no smoke seen after terrorist attack that an aircraft is on fire. Only small puffs here and there.



Secretary defense and Undersecretary defense briefing in parliament



araz said:


> Bilal Khan.
> May I know on what basis you are posting somethkng totally contrary to the information which has officially been provided. We dont quite know what is your background and what you have been upto till now. As such and please dont assume this to be disrespectful I would like to know your sources/experience before we understand why youare saying so.
> Awaiting a response



He is making these assertions based on official information. One damaged, that nose cone AWAC and one was completely destroyed. Again disclosed in parliament by secretary and undersecretary of defense


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## araz

Bratva said:


> Secretary defense and Undersecretary defense briefing in parliament
> 
> 
> 
> He is making these assertions based on official information. One damaged, that nose cone AWAC and one was completely destroyed. Again disclosed in parliament by secretary and undersecretary of defense


I have been made to understand that the plane written off was the very one that had the nose cone damage. If was a shrapnel induced damage that went ghrough the nose co e causing the initial statement. Later on the matter on even closer assessment was found to be more serious with damage to the bulkhead and also the radar system . However like everyone else I remain confused as to what the actual picture is and hence my question to probe the gentleman who has so far kept very much to himself. I want to assess whether his news comes from reliable sources and therefore we need to pay more heed to it or is he just guesstimating just like everyone else in ahich case one can hold on to ones opinion. There you have all of my cards on the table.
Araz


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## Bratva

araz said:


> I have been made to understand that the plane written off was the very one that had the nose cone damage. If was a shrapnel induced damage that went ghrough the nose co e causing the initial statement. Later on the matter on even closer assessment was found to be more serious with damage to the bulkhead and also the radar system . However like everyone else I remain confused as to what the actual picture is and hence my question to probe the gentleman who has so far kept very much to himself. I want to assess whether his news comes from reliable sources and therefore we need to pay more heed to it or is he just guesstimating just like everyone else in ahich case one can hold on to ones opinion. There you have all of my cards on the table.
> Araz



Hope these clear your doubts about the destruction of one SAAB awac

*ISLAMABAD: The February 6 admission by senior officials of the defence ministry that a Saab-2000 aircraft fitted with an Airborne Early Warning & Control System (AWACS) was totally destroyed in the August 15, 2012 terror attack on the Kamra airbase, implies that the concerned authorities had been keeping the tax payers in the dark for the past six months by claiming that it was only the nose cone of the precious aircraft which had been partially damaged and that it would be repaired by the manufacturers in Sweden.
*


The fact that the Kamra airbase raiders had completely destroyed one of the four Saab-2000 AWACS planes was made public for the first time by Additional Secretary Defence Rear Admiral Farrokh Ahmad during a meeting of the National Assembly’s Standing Committee on Defence on February 6, six months after the Minhas airbase at Kamra was attacked by the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan.

Tax-payers kept in the dark about loss of plane worth $250m - thenews.com.pk

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## araz

Bratva said:


> Hope these clear your doubts about the destruction of one SAAB awac
> 
> *ISLAMABAD: The February 6 admission by senior officials of the defence ministry that a Saab-2000 aircraft fitted with an Airborne Early Warning & Control System (AWACS) was totally destroyed in the August 15, 2012 terror attack on the Kamra airbase, implies that the concerned authorities had been keeping the tax payers in the dark for the past six months by claiming that it was only the nose cone of the precious aircraft which had been partially damaged and that it would be repaired by the manufacturers in Sweden.
> *
> 
> 
> The fact that the Kamra airbase raiders had completely destroyed one of the four Saab-2000 AWACS planes was made public for the first time by Additional Secretary Defence Rear Admiral Farrokh Ahmad during a meeting of the National Assembly’s Standing Committee on Defence on February 6, six months after the Minhas airbase at Kamra was attacked by the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan.
> 
> Tax-payers kept in the dark about loss of plane worth $250m - thenews.com.pk


This I agree with and it is in keeping with what I have said. The damage to the bulkhead was deemed unrepairable by Saab and a US company on account of the cost. This is the same issue which happens to older cars jn UK( giving a very crude example). Sometimes the repair is more than the car is worth. However it still does not say that 3 planes were destroyed. One loss was acknowledged and if that is the case the plane has now been repaired. This has been the narrative on this forum and from people like Usman Shabbir and Hkhan. I have not heard the 1 destroyed and 2 damaged news from anyone reliable in Pakistan. As I said we need to authenticate an opinion ventured and therefore I asked.

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## ice_man

araz said:


> This I agree with and it is jn keeping with what I have said. The damage t the bulkhead was deemed unrepairable by Saab and a US company on account of the cost. This is the same issue which happens to older cars jn UK( giving a very crude example). Sometimes the repair is more than the cat is worth. However it still does not say that 3 planes were destroyed. One loss was acknowledged and if that is the case the plane had now been repaired. This has been the narrative on this forum and from people like Usman Shabbir and Hkhan. I have not heard the 1 destroyed and 2 damaged news from anyone in Pakistan. As I said we need to authenticate an opinion ventured and therefore I asked.



and yet picture of just NUMBER 040 keeps appearing and no other. it is strange but in our country no one is accountable to the tax payer.


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## araz

ice_man said:


> and yet picture of just NUMBER 040 keeps appearing and no other. it is strange but in our country no one is accountable to the tax payer.


Like everyone else i am just trying to ascertain the true picture. If you have proof contrary to the official assertions then present it. Iam just trying to clear the air with regards to this confusion.
Araz

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## Bilal Khan 777

araz said:


> Like everyone else i am just trying to ascertain the true picture. If you have proof contrary to the official assertions then present it. Iam just trying to clear the air with regards to this confusion.
> Araz



"Proof" here is the same as "introduction" here. For some one us in service to share data, we can neither give proof not introduce ourselves.


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## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> "Proof" here is the same as "introduction" here. For some one us in service to share data, we can neither give proof not introduce ourselves.


Then at least have the designation of military professional. This is not the first time a Ex PA/PAF official is oming to the forum. We have had the pleasure of the company of fairly senior officers from PAF(Air commodore level) and others from other branches. I am happy to understand your need for privacy but you can still converse with someone like icarus or fatman 17 who are ex servicemen or the mods like Irfan baluch/ oscar /slav defence and have your title changed. It is simply a reflection of the fact that if you say something to the contrary it should be believed on the basis of the work and experience that you have. Since you have chosen to share an opinion contrary to commonly held belief you should also have the credentials to back it up.
Araz


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## ice_man

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> "Proof" here is the same as "introduction" here. For some one us in service to share data, we can neither give proof not introduce ourselves.



i will believe you but you must at least have picture of 4 AWACs parked not only number 040 around.

This is not a picture of Kahuta. so please spare me the nonsense till then my boy.


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## roseline

melb4aust said:


> Ofcourse, there's no need to ask for that. As we have talked alot, that Pakistan has already signed a deal with Sweden to acquire Eireye system. Incase some how, if that deal doesnt go through then we have China to provide AWACS system.
> 
> I would like to go for more details on this issue later......


Really


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## Lightning Soul

razgriz19 said:


> Do you have pictures of other 3 Saabs Eriye?
> Post them now if they are operational like you said thy are



No I don't have any pictures. I've just inferred from what has been told by different defense ministry and military officials. Do you have any concrete proof where you believe that more than 1 SAAB got destroyed? 
Even there is no evidence about the 1 which is assumed to be destroyed (which i also believe it too)
But then PAF would've definitely converted the transport version into AWACS too or placed an order for the replacement of the lost SAAB Erieyes but that also didn't happen!


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## Thorough Pro

this is a pic from the internet not PAF base kamra





razgriz19 said:


> Do you know what this is?
> Fire Suppression, it goes off when it detects any heat signature. This could be one of the reasons why there wasn't any smoke coming out of the hangar!


----------



## Asli Lahori1

There were news in Pakistani news papers that PAF engineers repaired an Air Craft saving $15 million. Which Air Craft was that?


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## Path-Finder

Asli Lahori1 said:


> There were news in Pakistani news papers that PAF engineers repaired an Air Craft saving $15 million. Which Air Craft was that?



SAAB Erieye


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## razgriz19

Thorough Pro said:


> this is a pic from the internet not PAF base kamra



Did you even read the post?

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## Inception-06

The biggest lesson should have been learned by PAF anmd Navy after the Air Bases attacks, where we lost billions of dollars, because of pure security management !

check this fresh picture notice the ill security AGAIN !


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## Thorough Pro

Yes I did and you missed my point. As far as I know, none of our hangers had such fire suppression systems installed at that time, hence the theory of planes burning with no smoke coming out is not valid. 



razgriz19 said:


> Did you even read the post?

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## MastanKhan

ice_man said:


> i will believe you but you must at least have picture of 4 AWACs parked not only number 040 around.
> 
> This is not a picture of Kahuta. so please spare me the nonsense till then my boy.



If you click on the posters name---the pop up will tell you that the gentleman is a senior citizen---.

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## Asli Lahori1

Path-Finder said:


> SAAB Erieye


So we are back to 4 Erieye?


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## Path-Finder

Asli Lahori1 said:


> So we are back to 4 Erieye?



No. 1 completely destroyed and 1 damaged. The damaged one has been repaired and made operational which totals 3 operational craft.



Ulla said:


> The biggest lesson should have been learned by PAF anmd Navy after the Air Bases attacks, where we lost billions of dollars, because of pure security management !
> 
> check this fresh picture notice the ill security AGAIN !
> 
> View attachment 257594



Why are houses so near a sensitive locations, dazzling.

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## syed_yusuf

Path-Finder said:


> No. 1 completely destroyed and 1 damaged. The damaged one has been repaired and made operational which totals 3 operational craft.



Nope, all 4 are fixed. please provide evidence that only 3 are fixed and 1 is written off.


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## Path-Finder

syed_yusuf said:


> Nope, all 4 are fixed. please provide evidence that only 3 are fixed and 1 is written off.



Read this thread or go back few pages this has been discussed to death. If the destroyed has been brought back to operational service than Pakistan has done something no other technologically advanced nation has yet achieved.


----------



## Bossman

Ulla said:


> The biggest lesson should have been learned by PAF anmd Navy after the Air Bases attacks, where we lost billions of dollars, because of pure security management !
> 
> check this fresh picture notice the ill security AGAIN !
> 
> View attachment 257594



Ulla, This is Chaklala, the houses are about quarter mile from the runway and there is also a wall separating the houses from the base. They look nearer due to use of lenses on the camera. Having said that this is the reality of most airbases in Pakistan and even in India as with population growth they are now surrounded by civilian population. Any body can take pot shots on planes whether they are on ground or while landing or taking off and it has happened at Peshawar and Faisal bases. They are simply no resources to replace these old bases.

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## razgriz19

Thorough Pro said:


> this is a pic from the internet not PAF base kamra



Did you even read the post?


syed_yusuf said:


> Nope, all 4 are fixed. please provide evidence that only 3 are fixed and 1 is written off.



can you provide proof that all 4 are fixed?


----------



## Inception-06

Path-Finder said:


> No. 1 completely destroyed and 1 damaged. The damaged one has been repaired and made operational which totals 3 operational craft.
> 
> 
> 
> Why are houses so near a sensitive locations, dazzling.




The house will be there forever, but there could be better security measures like watch towers equipped with 12.7.mm Guns and snipers also foot patrolls with dog etc.


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## Thorough Pro

I replied a few posts above and you are still asking the same question, am I missing something?



razgriz19 said:


> Did you even read the post?


----------



## syed_yusuf

razgriz19 said:


> Did you even read the post?
> 
> 
> can you provide proof that all 4 are fixed?





razgriz19 said:


> Did you even read the post?
> 
> 
> can you provide proof that all 4 are fixed?




No i cannot and will not, i believe my family and friends and GoP who have provided me the information. We are sticking by it. So, if you are questioning, please provide the reasoning or just simple rest the case.

This is a sensitive matter for PAF and sensitive things are not shared like maruti pictures. 

can you show me a picture proof of all 3 of IAF AEWCS flying. i have not seen one. do you have a picture proof of chinese AEWCS do they have 4 , 6 or 8. or a matter of fact find me a picture proof of turkish or isreali AEWCS

come on, PAF said it, quite a few forum member confirmed it. case closed. Move on


----------



## Bratva

syed_yusuf said:


> No i cannot and will not, i believe my family and friends and GoP who have provided me the information. We are sticking by it. So, if you are questioning, please provide the reasoning or just simple rest the case.
> 
> This is a sensitive matter for PAF and sensitive things are not shared like maruti pictures.
> 
> can you show me a picture proof of all 3 of IAF AEWCS flying. i have not seen one. do you have a picture proof of chinese AEWCS do they have 4 , 6 or 8. or a matter of fact find me a picture proof of turkish or isreali AEWCS
> 
> come on, PAF said it, quite a few forum member confirmed it. case closed. Move on



Syed Yusuf, When are we going to apply common sense to this simple matter ? Remember Rehman malik and other official statements right after attack that one was damaged with nose cone ? And go back few pages, where secretary defense and and assistant secretary defence claimed one was completly destroyed. This is the GOP that provided the information.

How this to be a sensitive matter for PAF? Did PAF bought jets with their own money or with tax payer money ? When USA can hold a public inquiry in to F-22 crases and release the report detailing why F-22 crashed public, Is SAAB more sensitive than F-22 ?

So if you still want believe your mammay chachay in PAF who says 4 all are operational, then be my guest. We will stick what the higher authorities said. 1 destoryed, 1 damaged.

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## Path-Finder

Ulla said:


> The house will be there forever, but there could be better security measures like watch towers equipped with 12.7.mm Guns and snipers also foot patrolls with dog etc.



12.7 is ok But I say put Mini Guns on bases because when these bastards attack one position in force and numbers you need maximum lethality to suppress them today one airbase in Peshawar has been attacked!

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## New Resolve

Have you been to PAF base lately, they are heavily fortified. Even the attack today on a unimportant facility fizzled out. Gone are the days when terrorists could threaten PAF assets, now they are just target practice.

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## Mani2020

syed_yusuf said:


> No i cannot and will not, i believe my family and friends and GoP who have provided me the information. We are sticking by it. So, if you are questioning, please provide the reasoning or just simple rest the case.
> 
> This is a sensitive matter for PAF and sensitive things are not shared like maruti pictures.
> 
> can you show me a picture proof of all 3 of IAF AEWCS flying. i have not seen one. do you have a picture proof of chinese AEWCS do they have 4 , 6 or 8. or a matter of fact find me a picture proof of turkish or isreali AEWCS
> 
> come on, PAF said it, quite a few forum member confirmed it. case closed. Move on



If family and friends of people here were to be believed , we would have acquired f-35 by now, jf-17 would have been second to none even surpassing f-22 raptor, Oplot have been in service with pak army and pakistan would have test fired tipu missile ...So please give your family and friends a rest !!!!!!

Anyone who would believe on GoP would either be insane or just doing so for ego boosting. The fact remains that there has been so much ambiguity on what did happen that day.... If three saab's were parked together while one was airborne as per initial reports and terrorists were there for atleast 20-30 minutes before even they got detected then it doesnt require rocket science to imply they had enough time to take a toll on parked 3 aircrafts considering they came with a clear target in mind and that target was saab ...even a major hit on one aircraft can result into damaging another in proximity and considering there were mutiple reports coming out after the incident with each having different view on damages occurred...it won't be surprising to know there was something really fishy there and later statements would have been just for face saving.

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## Neptune

syed_yusuf said:


> No i cannot and will not, i believe my family and friends and GoP who have provided me the information. We are sticking by it. So, if you are questioning, please provide the reasoning or just simple rest the case.
> 
> This is a sensitive matter for PAF and sensitive things are not shared like maruti pictures.
> 
> can you show me a picture proof of all 3 of IAF AEWCS flying. i have not seen one. do you have a picture proof of chinese AEWCS do they have 4 , 6 or 8. or a matter of fact find me a picture proof of turkish or isreali AEWCS
> 
> come on, PAF said it, quite a few forum member confirmed it. case closed. Move on



and @razgriz19 

Surprise!! All four are Boeing E-7T Peace Eagle.


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## nomi007

chinese mini documentary on chinese awacs 
zdk-03 specially discuss
 http://player.ku6cdn.com/default/loader/201312171730/loader.swf?playerType=httpout&playerVersion=201502041719&logo=http://css.ku6cdn.com/comm/v/0.1.0/mm.png&logourl=http://show.ku6.com/market!croom.action&auto=1&vid=nQREbQOpY-x7VJNAssrcug..&type=v&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fbbs.tiexue.net%2Fpost_9549917_1.html


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## Bilal Khan 777

ice_man said:


> i will believe you but you must at least have picture of 4 AWACs parked not only number 040 around.
> 
> This is not a picture of Kahuta. so please spare me the nonsense till then my boy.



There cannot be a picture of 4 aircraft parked as there are no more 4 aircraft with top antennas. There are only three aircraft, one completely SV, one under trials after major rectification, and one under repair. One has been written off. This does not include the non-radar aircraft.


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## syed_yusuf

Honestly it does not matter 3 or 4

B/W KE-03 and Erieye PAF has more AEWCS than it needs to cover the entire spectrum . 

i believe IAF has only 2 AEWCS operational.


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## Imran Khan

syed_yusuf said:


> Honestly it does not matter 3 or 4
> 
> B/W KE-03 and Erieye PAF has more AEWCS than it needs to cover the entire spectrum .
> 
> i believe IAF has only 2 AEWCS operational.


they are going to increase but yeah they need more because of their area


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## Mani2020

syed_yusuf said:


> Honestly it does not matter 3 or 4
> 
> B/W KE-03 and Erieye PAF has more AEWCS than it needs to cover the entire spectrum .
> 
> i believe IAF has only 2 AEWCS operational.



My friend that doesnt mean you keep on loosing assets worth millions of dollars from the hands of some handful filthy foreign sponsored terrorists ...

Thanks God you weren't paf spokes person otherwise how lame and dumb it would have been sounded hearing "we lost saab erieyes but don't worry we already have more Awacs then we need and our neighbor has just 2 Awacs ..so lets party hard and forget about the million dollars we "a cash strapped country" lost there" ....Seriously mate don't argue just for the sake of arguing

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## araz

Bratva said:


> Syed Yusuf, When are we going to apply common sense to this simple matter ? Remember Rehman malik and other official statements right after attack that one was damaged with nose cone ? And go back few pages, where secretary defense and and assistant secretary defence claimed one was completly destroyed. This is the GOP that provided the information.
> 
> How this to be a sensitive matter for PAF? Did PAF bought jets with their own money or with tax payer money ? When USA can hold a public inquiry in to F-22 crases and release the report detailing why F-22 crashed public, Is SAAB more sensitive than F-22 ?
> 
> So if you still want believe your mammay chachay in PAF who says 4 all are operational, then be my guest. We will stick what the higher authorities said. 1 destoryed, 1 damaged.


@Bratva.
No one is denying the news of one A/C being damaged. The question to which there seems to be no answer is whether
A. The nose cone story was the original assessment and later on much more damage was detected.
B. Whether there were more aircrafts damaged in the hanger.
So far both parties have stuck to their points of view and none can produce evidence barring lack of photographs after the event.
Iam interpreting the loss of one aircraft as the one damaged based on the original version of the story of a shrapnel induced damage to the baulkhead which may have caused more damage to the inside. The western firms often write off these planes due to the cost of repairs being higher than the cost of the planes. There may have been some indication as well of peeople trying to make money from possible buying of another platform. This has now been repaired.
The other story of the terrorists having 30 minutes to themselves before being discovered at least to me does not hold water in that it would have meant loss of all 3 platforms without any shadow of doubt. So till someone gives me irrevocable proof of 3 platforms damaged/1destroyed this is what I will hold on to. Iam not necessarily saying that the other version is nout the truth, for in Pakistan anything is possible, but it does not make sense to me.
@Bilal Khan 777 if you dont want to makeyour credentials known to the public please contact @fatman17 or the current lead of thinktank or @Xeric. It is important that you be given the right designation without compromising your identity. But till then sorry but your word is as good as mine or any other member.
Araz



Mani2020 said:


> My friend that doesnt mean you keep on loosing assets worth millions of dollars from the hands of some handful filthy foreign sponsored terrorists ...
> 
> Thanks God you weren't paf spokes person otherwise how lame and dumb it would have been sounded hearing "we lost saab erieyes but don't worry we already have more Awacs then we need and our neighbor has just 2 Awacs ..so lets party hard and forget about the million dollars we "a cash strapped country" lost there" ....Seriously mate don't argue just for the sake of arguing


That maybe true but at the same time the people who's money has been lost need to know what happened. The blame needs to be assigned and the responsible punished. If what some of you are saying then it is criminally negligent ogf the PAF/Guarding forces whatever their designation. 
Araz

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## Mani2020

> That maybe true but at the same time the people who's money has been lost need to know what happened. The blame needs to be assigned and the responsible punished. If what some of you are saying then it is criminally negligent ogf the PAF/Guarding forces whatever their designation.
> Araz



@araz that is what i am saying from day one ...sadly in pakistan there is no concept of accountability ...we as a nation have always been on extreme end of either side....if we start praising someone we do it to such extent that we start to ignore the blunders on their part and if we start to target/criticize someone , we do it irrespective of their good deeds.

People need to understand that no one is taking due credit away from paf ...they are our pride but that doesnt mean we should ignore if they commit such blunders like they did in case of that attack carried out on airbase..... most of people here automatically assume that if some one is unfolding the truth he is being against paf and when they assume so they start to come up with lame excuses and get personal ...i remember there exists a forum where even if you highlight a minor glitch they throw you out of the forum...just imagine this is our level of tolerance ....we as a nation don't understand the meaning of a constructive criticism


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## Quwa

I honestly wouldn't stress too much on the 'now' and instead perhaps look into the future. Given that the infrastructure for the Erieye is already there, I do think the PAF will in the coming years work on bringing a 4th active system. Whether this comes via retrofitting the trainer or buying another is a different story.

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## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> There cannot be a picture of 4 aircraft parked as there are no more 4 aircraft with top antennas. There are only three aircraft, one completely SV, one under trials after major rectification, and one under repair. One has been written off. This does not include the non-radar aircraft.


Sorry but what do you mean by SV please.


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## Viper0011.

Bratva said:


> Hope these clear your doubts about the destruction of one SAAB awac
> 
> *ISLAMABAD: The February 6 admission by senior officials of the defence ministry that a Saab-2000 aircraft fitted with an Airborne Early Warning & Control System (AWACS) was totally destroyed in the August 15, 2012 terror attack on the Kamra airbase, implies that the concerned authorities had been keeping the tax payers in the dark for the past six months by claiming that it was only the nose cone of the precious aircraft which had been partially damaged and that it would be repaired by the manufacturers in Sweden.*



Everyone knew about it on here I think. I've personally posted one was gone and the other one was close to being gone (The one they fixed now). So you did lose a plane and recovered the other one that was severely damaged. If you have understanding otherwise, I'd love to see pictures of a full squadron now. They aren't supermen to reassemble a dead and in pieces radar and majority burnt air-frame.....unless the radar was gone but the plane was recoverable and they put on a Chinese radar as China has a similar radar set too. Either way sad loss, but the engineers through this restoration gained precious knowledge which you couldn't have gained if the aircraft was flying. As you won't be allowed to open the seals due to proprietary technology. So a blessing in disguise?


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## Bilal Khan 777

araz said:


> Sorry but what do you mean by SV please.



Serviceable. Operational for your speak.

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## Bilal9

This may have been posted before, Or not.

Induction for ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft in PAF service. Service name for aircraft is KE-03:


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## subanday

Bratva said:


> Syed Yusuf, When are we going to apply common sense to this simple matter ? Remember Rehman malik and other official statements right after attack that one was damaged with nose cone ? And go back few pages, where secretary defense and and assistant secretary defence claimed one was completly destroyed. This is the GOP that provided the information.
> 
> How this to be a sensitive matter for PAF? Did PAF bought jets with their own money or with tax payer money ? When USA can hold a public inquiry in to F-22 crases and release the report detailing why F-22 crashed public, Is SAAB more sensitive than F-22 ?
> 
> So if you still want believe your mammay chachay in PAF who says 4 all are operational, then be my guest. We will stick what the higher authorities said. 1 destoryed, 1 damaged.



Sir, one ac survived, two damaged, one lost totally. Out of two damaged, one operational again. So two ac r operational.


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## Maarkhoor

subanday said:


> Sir, one ac survived, two damaged, one lost totally. Out of two damaged, one operational again. So two ac r operational.


Only one aircraft damaged and repaired

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## subanday

Abu Namr said:


> Only one aircraft damaged and repaired


Tusi khush raho bhai jaan....

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## Bilal Khan 777

Abu Namr said:


> Only one aircraft damaged and repaired



Continue pushing the half-truths.


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## ice_man

why are the ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraf only being put up for our sea frontier surveillance? 

are they inferior to Saabs in the sense that their range is limited and really cannot look over the border a great distance?


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## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Continue pushing the half-truths.


As I have repeatedly said we dont know who is right in this one damaged and repaired VS 1 lost 2 damaged of which one repaired. I guess only time will tell and by that time people who should have been taken to task will have long gone.
A


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## The Deterrent

ice_man said:


> why are the ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraf only being put up for our sea frontier surveillance?
> 
> are they inferior to Saabs in the sense that their range is limited and really cannot look over the border a great distance?


They aren't, one of them is already stationed at Mushaf AB (Sargodha), and hangar constructions are being done at Rafiqui (Shorkot), Minhas (Kamra), Risalpur and Samungli (Quetta).


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## airbus101

The Deterrent said:


> They aren't, one of them is already stationed at Mushaf AB (Sargodha), and hangar constructions are being done at Rafiqui (Shorkot), Minhas (Kamra), Risalpur and Samungli (Quetta).


This brings a question in my mind which is let us assume that there is only one erieye which we have seen in the recent time in regards to 6th September Paf Videos and there is already hanger built for the erieye's so my question is that we have space to accommodate the single zdk-03/KE why we have to build a new shell for one plane there could be one reason that swedes didn't allowed us to put the remaining erieye with KE.your thoughts Guys


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## Bilal Khan 777

ice_man said:


> why are the ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraf only being put up for our sea frontier surveillance?
> 
> are they inferior to Saabs in the sense that their range is limited and really cannot look over the border a great distance?



Sea surveillance is a lot more complicated than air surveillance. The radar was trailed for a long period prior to the first order. The radar is said to meet the technical and operational requirements of PAF. A radar that can pick out sea targets is lot more sophisticated. 

The squadron is based at Masroor AFB, but AOR is all sectors. The Chinese AW&C is well integrated with the PAF ADGE, and the CONOPS of GCI is being transformed to Air Control and NCW. This transformation will effectively change how PAF takes to the skies



The Deterrent said:


> They aren't, one of them is already stationed at Mushaf AB (Sargodha), and hangar constructions are being done at Rafiqui (Shorkot), Minhas (Kamra), Risalpur and Samungli (Quetta).



That is for dispersion. Sq is at Karachi.

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## Donatello

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Sea surveillance is a lot more complicated than air surveillance. The radar was trailed for a long period prior to the first order. The radar is said to meet the technical and operational requirements of PAF. A radar that can pick out sea targets is lot more sophisticated.
> 
> The squadron is based at Masroor AFB, but AOR is all sectors. The Chinese AW&C is well integrated with the PAF ADGE, and the CONOPS of GCI is being transformed to Air Control and NCW. This transformation will effectively change how PAF takes to the skies
> 
> 
> 
> That is for dispersion. Sq is at Karachi.



I am assuming PAF might want another squadron of 4 AWACs from China?


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## Bilal Khan 777

Donatello said:


> I am assuming PAF might want another squadron of 4 AWACs from China?



Not currently on the cards.


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## ice_man

subanday said:


> Sir, one ac survived, two damaged, one lost totally. Out of two damaged, one operational again. So two ac r operational.



yes 2 aircrafts operational after one being repaired and that SAME one undergoing trials before being re inducted. 

so total would stand at two operational after another month.

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## nomi007

4th zdk-03








The delivery of the 4th *ZDK-03* was delayed, probably due to certain upgrades such as a new datalink. *ZDK-03* is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the *JF-17* fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. 
The latest rumor (June 2015) suggested that the AWACS may be upgraded with a fixed AESA radar in the future similar to the one on board *KJ-500*.

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## fatman17

The first *ZDK-03* (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 12-002, formerly 11-002) was delivered some time later. The third (S/N 13-003, formerly 12-003) was delivered in 2013. The delivery of the 4th *ZDK-03* was delayed, probably due to certain upgrades such as a new datalink. *ZDK-03* is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the *JF-17* fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore *ZDK-03* operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The latest rumor (June 2015) suggested that the AWACS may be upgraded with a fixed AESA radar in the future similar to the one onboard *KJ-500*._- Last Updated 10/3/15_

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> The first *ZDK-03* (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 12-002, formerly 11-002) was delivered some time later. The third (S/N 13-003, formerly 12-003) was delivered in 2013. The delivery of the 4th *ZDK-03* was delayed, probably due to certain upgrades such as a new datalink. *ZDK-03* is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the *JF-17* fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore *ZDK-03* operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The latest rumor (June 2015) suggested that the AWACS may be upgraded with a fixed AESA radar in the future similar to the one onboard *KJ-500*._- Last Updated 10/3/15_


Sir previously I have posted picture of 5 Chinese AWACS in our Air Force


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## Bratva

Zarvan said:


> Sir previously I have posted picture of 5 Chinese AWACS in our Air Force



you were wrong there are only three ZDK AWAC in the fleet


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## Zarvan

Bratva said:


> you were wrong there are only three ZDK AWAC in the fleet


Sir their are 5 and I have posted pictures with different numbers on them.


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## Bratva

Zarvan said:


> Sir their are 5 and I have posted pictures with different numbers on them.



Read Fatman post, look at your post where you posted pictures. then again read fatman post for 10 times. because you have a very bad habit of not understanding basic written english.

Even if you don't understand afterwards, you are free to ask why and how there are no five but three AWAC

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> The first *ZDK-03* (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 12-002, formerly 11-002) was delivered some time later. The third (S/N 13-003, formerly 12-003) was delivered in 2013. The delivery of the 4th *ZDK-03* was delayed, probably due to certain upgrades such as a new datalink. *ZDK-03* is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the *JF-17* fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore *ZDK-03* operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The latest rumor (June 2015) suggested that the AWACS may be upgraded with a fixed AESA radar in the future similar to the one onboard *KJ-500*._- Last Updated 10/3/15_


i shared last zdk-03


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## hassan1



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## Blue Marlin

so does pakistan have 4 saab awec's. at one time one was destroyed, but i red it may be reparable.


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## dilpakistani

yup


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## ice_man

@Blue Marlin @dilpakistani guys before posting stuff do read the 299 pages of this thread!

so you know facts. if not 299 then atleast page 290 onwards

@Oscar @fatman17 two days ago isaw the SAAB VIP transport flying. 

seems like the plan to convert it to an EREIYE has been completely dropped. can you confirm?


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## DANGER-ZONE

ice_man said:


> two days ago isaw the *SAAB VIP transport flying*.
> seems like the *plan to convert it to an EREIYE has been completely dropped.* can you confirm?



Who said It was official in the first place !
It was just a mere speculation or you can say fan based suggestion.


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## Bratva

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Who said It was official in the first place !
> It was just a mere speculation or you can say fan based suggestion.



Haan Bhai asli wali kia surat e haal hai ab ?


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## DANGER-ZONE

Bratva said:


> Haan Bhai asli wali kia surat e haal hai ab ?



what ??


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## Bratva

DANGER-ZONE said:


> what ??



SAAB AWAC ki majooda surat e haal tadaad ki kuch ata pata hai ?


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## silent hawk

Bratva said:


> SAAB AWAC ki majooda surat e haal tadaad ki kuch ata pata hai ?



4 are in service. The damaged aircraft has been repaired

List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## ice_man

silent hawk said:


> 4 are in service. The damaged aircraft has been repaired
> 
> List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



ignore Wiki please. it is nonsense!


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## silent hawk

ice_man said:


> ignore Wiki please. it is nonsense!



Wiki is cover. 4 are operational


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## Blue Marlin

im getting confused by all this
how many Saab does Pakistan have in service. i know they purchased 4 but i think one got damaged

how many zk-3 does pakistan have in service.


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## Bratva

silent hawk said:


> 4 are in service. The damaged aircraft has been repaired
> 
> List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



1 completely destroyed. 1 was damaged ( nose con damaged). another 1 is unconfirmed damaged. 

So out of three only 1 is made operational. So current strength is 2 SAAB AWAC. 

You can logically see this as well. Have seen all four AWAC ? or only one flying with serial number i guess 100-something for last 3 years ?



Blue Marlin said:


> im getting confused by all this
> how many Saab does Pakistan have in service. i know they purchased 4 but i think one got damaged
> 
> how many zk-3 does pakistan have in service.



2 in service as of now. 1 completely destroyed. Fourth one is under repair. 

3 ZDK in the fleet

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## Blue Marlin

Bratva said:


> 1 completely destroyed. 1 was damaged ( nose con damaged). another 1 is unconfirmed damaged.
> 
> So out of three only 1 is made operational. So current strength is 2 SAAB AWAC.
> 
> You can logically see this as well. Have seen all four AWAC ? or only one flying with serial number i guess 100-something for last 3 years ?
> 
> 
> 
> 2 in service as of now. 1 completely destroyed. Fourth one is under repair.
> 
> 3 ZDK in the fleet


how come there are only 3 zkd's in service, paf purchased 4 of them what happened to the fourth plane?


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## Bratva

Blue Marlin said:


> how come there are only 3 zkd's in service, paf purchased 4 of them what happened to the fourth plane?



Some unknown and undisclosed upgrades are being applied to it hence the delay

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## Blue Marlin

Bratva said:


> Some unknown and undisclosed upgrades are being applied to it hence the delay


ahh ok i see... at first i thought it was undelivered. but if you say its grounded then i would assume it may be under the process of being upgraded to a higher spec.

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## stalintom

I like to join with you for discussion. But time being I am not very much knowledge about it.


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## Bilal Khan 777

Bratva said:


> Some unknown and undisclosed upgrades are being applied to it hence the delay



The Fourth one will come with AESA radar, hence the delay.


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## Ultima Thule

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> The Fourth one will come with AESA radar, hence the delay.


How do you know about it that it will come with AESA? Please confirm


----------



## Bratva

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> The Fourth one will come with AESA radar, hence the delay.



Sources already indicate first 3 AWAC had AESA radar in it. The OC of ZDK squadron confirmed that to @fatman17


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## Bilal Khan 777

Bratva said:


> Sources already indicate first 3 AWAC had AESA radar in it. The OC of ZDK squadron confirmed that to @fatman17



If you think that Tube driven radars which are mechanically steered in azimuth are AESA, then the OC must be right.



pakistanipower said:


> How do you know about it that it will come with AESA? Please confirm



I know since I supervised the complete integration of the project.


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## Ultima Thule

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> If you think that Tube driven radars which are mechanically steered in azimuth are AESA, then the OC must be right.
> 
> 
> 
> I know since I supervised the complete integration of the project.


Thanks


----------



## aliyusuf

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I know since I supervised the complete integration of the project.



Weren't you required to sign an NDA or something?


----------



## ice_man

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> If you think that Tube driven radars which are mechanically steered in azimuth are AESA, then the OC must be right.
> 
> 
> 
> I know since I supervised the complete integration of the project.



Mr.Bilal 

you were already asked by @fatman17 that if you claim your background is military then do please share it with the mods. so your status could be upgraded to atleast a think tank. 

if not then please refrain from spreading misinformation. 

claims that were have 3 operational EREYIEs etc are just misleading and sad.


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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I know since I supervised the complete integration of the project.



Hi,

That settled it real quick----but must have stirred up some waves somewhere.


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## Bilal Khan 777

ice_man said:


> Mr.Bilal
> 
> you were already asked by @fatman17 that if you claim your background is military then do please share it with the mods. so your status could be upgraded to atleast a think tank.
> 
> if not then please refrain from spreading misinformation.
> 
> claims that were have 3 operational EREYIEs etc are just misleading and sad.



Kindly refrain from antagonising the contributors here. I am unable to share my background, and just a humble person to be called a "tank" of any kind. I am only trying to save you from misinformation, and not spreading it.

I have never claimed we have 3 operational Saab aircraft, rather, I have informed everyone of the reality, or what happened in the attack, and what has been repaired since then. Why do you think I mislead you? read the posts again.



aliyusuf said:


> Weren't you required to sign an NDA or something?



Yeah, its called Official Secrets Act, 1923.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That settled it real quick----but must have stirred up some waves somewhere.



Now everyone would want to know my rank and get their knickers in a twist.

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## Quwa

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Kindly refrain from antagonising the contributors here. I am unable to share my background, and just a humble person to be called a "tank" of any kind. I am only trying to save you from misinformation, and not spreading it.
> 
> I have never claimed we have 3 operational Saab aircraft, rather, I have informed everyone of the reality, or what happened in the attack, and what has been repaired since then. Why do you think I mislead you? read the posts again.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, its called Official Secrets Act, 1923.
> 
> 
> 
> Now everyone would want to know my rank and get their knickers in a twist.


Question, what was the rationale behind having the 4th one as AESA and not the same like the others? Is it part of some long-term plan to eventually get a new AEW&C type further down the road?


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## Bratva

From Oct 27-29. SAAB Seria No. 10025 flew for the first time after the attack. So Current strength of SAAB AWAC is now 2. 10040 and 10025'


Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker!

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## Imran Khan

Bratva said:


> From Oct 27-29. SAAB Seria No. 10025 flew for the first time after the attack. So Current strength of SAAB AWAC is now 2. 10040 and 10025'
> 
> 
> Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker!


chalo aik or zinda hoa ab baki 2 kab koma se bahir ayee gay ????????

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## ice_man

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> There cannot be a picture of 4 aircraft parked as there are no more 4 aircraft with top antennas. There are only three aircraft, one completely SV, one under trials after major rectification, and one under repair. One has been written off. This does not include the non-radar aircraft.



here please read your claim for yourself! you claimed 3 AWACS still exist. when clearly PAF has one in service and one under trial

now you are going back on your misinformation.


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## krash

ice_man said:


> here please read your claim for yourself! you claimed 3 AWACS still exist. when clearly PAF has one in service and one under trial
> 
> now you are going back on your misinformation.



What part of the 3rd being "*under repair"* i.e. not operational, yet, do you find confusing?


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## Bilal Khan 777

ice_man said:


> here please read your claim for yourself! you claimed 3 AWACS still exist. when clearly PAF has one in service and one under trial
> 
> now you are going back on your misinformation.



I don't see what your point is, maybe you are unable to understand simple English.



krash said:


> What part of the 3rd being "*under repair"* i.e. not operational, yet, do you find confusing?



Thank you


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## Khafee

Saqr said:


> Question, what was the rationale behind having the 4th one as AESA and not the same like the others? Is it part of some long-term plan to eventually get a new AEW&C type further down the road?


Procurement of cutting edge tech can be very tricky. Sometimes you have to buy 2nd grade stuff so that later you can get the real 1st grade stuff e.g. how PAF got it's DFRM's

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## hassan1



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## Aamir Hussain

Don't know if it has been reported but three new hangers now house the Chinese AWACS at Masroor. Northeast of the main parking bay. The perimeter wall around the hangers speaks of a real threat from terr's.


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## Khafee

Aamir Hussain said:


> Don't know if it has been reported but three new hangers now house the Chinese AWACS at Masroor. Northeast of the main parking bay. The perimeter wall around the hangers speaks of a real threat from terr's.


Sir, with all due respect. What good is this info to the general public, except those with nefarious means?

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## Aamir Hussain

Sir those with nefarious intentions have access to lot more than just Google earth to find out such things. I on the other hand have only Google Earth to depend upon. And Sir, I have been with this forum for the last eight years -- I know what to post and what not to and where to. 

Btw stationing of AWACS in Karachi and at both SF & Masroor have been reported many a times here on this forum. I see them flying south east on my way work on and off!!!!!

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## hassan1



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## Khafee

Aamir Hussain said:


> Sir those with nefarious intentions have access to lot more than just Google earth to find out such things. I on the other hand have only Google Earth to depend upon. And Sir, I have been with this forum for the last eight years -- I know what to post and what not to and where to.
> 
> Btw stationing of AWACS in Karachi and at both SF & Masroor have been reported many a times here on this forum. I see them flying south east on my way work on and off!!!!!


Any new developments on SF to stop civilian airliners from landing?


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## fatman17

The latest rumor (June 2015) suggested that the ZDK03 AWACS might be upgraded in the future with a fixed AESA radar similar to the one onboard KJ-500.

- Last Updated 11/12/15

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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=844547192309119




saab g at 1st

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## nomi007



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## Bratva



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## hassan1



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## DrWatson775

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 271038
> View attachment 271039
> View attachment 271040



Are they using Bose headphones on the last pic ?

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## syed_yusuf

DrWatson775 said:


> Are they using Bose headphones on the last pic ?


Yes and why?


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## v9s

syed_yusuf said:


> Yes and why?



Noise cancelling ones. Bose Noise cancelling headphones are the BEST in the market - unparalleled.


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## syed_yusuf

v9s said:


> Noise cancelling ones. Bose Noise cancelling headphones are the BEST in the market - unparalleled.



yes they are also used by other AWACS operators

these are military grade sets


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## Bilal Khan 777

syed_yusuf said:


> Yes and why?



When they listen to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan they put on BOSE.

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## hassan1



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This lovely bird , could make a awesome AWAC platform with ample space inside for personnel and operations






Very capable plane , once the AWAC radars are integrated will offer lots of internal room and this plane has the best fuel usage capacity in market in world







Great platform to build upon






CS100 series could be great for NAVY role / AWACs role for Air-force


Chinese AWACs can get integrated into CS100

Harpoons could be integrated into the CS100/ Anti Ship/Sub

Has ample room inside to make sleeping cabins also for engineers / officers
Really a great platform very roomy inside for integrating Recon Machines , personal cabins for engineers , pilots etc







Range comparable to Shaanxi_Y-8 slightly bigger with 6,500 KM flying range


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## asia2000

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> This lovely bird , could make a awesome AWAC platform with ample space inside for personnel and operations



US will not allow China to convert western commercial planes to AWACS. That is why China has to use Russian airplanes.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Plane is Canadian , no connection to USA

Chinese actually attempted to purchase the company recently as Nov / December 2015


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## asia2000

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Plane is Canadian , no connection to USA
> Chinese actually attempted to purchase the company recently as Nov / December 2015



China cannot even use its own C919 for AWACS, as it uses French/GE engine.


----------



## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> When they listen to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan they put on BOSE.


And they sing "Ankhian Udeek Gayaan dill vajja marda" when they remember the erieye
A

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## Bilal Khan 777

asia2000 said:


> US will not allow China to convert western commercial planes to AWACS. That is why China has to use Russian airplanes.



The plane you call Russian is actually Ukrainian(SSR), based on originally Antonov 12 design, and is in license production in China for decades.

For the IL76 conversion to airborne radar, it is more symbolic and not the mainstay of the AEWC in China. Their focus is larger fleet, turbo-prop, and now migrating to balanced beam or AESA encased in circular radome for 360 degree coverage.

The system given to Pakistan is based on similar technologies.

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## IrbiS

*FlightGlobal*'s *WorldAirForces2016* shows *4 ACTIVE Erieye* AEW&C with PAF, excluding the SAAB 2000 transporter!

Could be a mistake, or is it?


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## nomi007




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## Tank131

IrbiS said:


> *FlightGlobal*'s *WorldAirForces2016* shows *4 ACTIVE Erieye* AEW&C with PAF, excluding the SAAB 2000 transporter!
> 
> Could be a mistake, or is it?



Its correct. The erieyes that were damaged in the Minhas terrorist attack were repaired by PAF and put back into service. This was done despite SAAB stating that they were beyond repair.

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## Quwa

Tank131 said:


> Its correct. The erieyes that were damaged in the Minhas terrorist attack were repaired by PAF and put back into service. This was done despite SAAB stating that they were beyond repair.


I wonder how much Saab would charge to upgrade our Erieye to SRSS [Swing Role Surveillance System], which would equip them with a ground-facing SAR, enabling them to serve as JSTARS-like platforms.

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## Tank131

Quwa said:


> I wonder how much Saab would charge to upgrade our Erieye to SRSS [Swing Role Surveillance System], which would equip them with a ground-facing SAR, enabling them to serve as JSTARS-like platforms.



UAE bought 2 new systems of erieye srss based on bombardier global 6000 and is upgrading its 2 existing erieye saab 340s for $1.27 billion. Using a *very* rough estimate, PAF paind 1.72bln for their erieyes and SAAB-2000 (of which $45M was for the actual aircraft), putting the system around $420M. That being said a portion of that was logistics and support and large number of spare for the aircraft so probably ~$400M. If you extrapolate that onto the $1.27bln deal for 2 new and 2 upgraded for UAE you would find that around $200-350 million is being spent on their upgrade putting upgrade cost for PAF (4 systems) in the $400-600million range. 

Worth it in my estimate.

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## aziqbal

IrbiS said:


> *FlightGlobal*'s *WorldAirForces2016* shows *4 ACTIVE Erieye* AEW&C with PAF, excluding the SAAB 2000 transporter!
> 
> Could be a mistake, or is it?




Unless there is a picture of the 4th in PAF colours it's still at the Shaanxi (SAC) facility most likely test bed for newer rotodome


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## IrbiS

Tank131 said:


> Its correct. The erieyes that were damaged in the Minhas terrorist attack were repaired by PAF and put back into service. This was done despite SAAB stating that they were beyond repair.



Good news then



aziqbal said:


> Unless there is a picture of the 4th in PAF colours it's still at the Shaanxi (SAC) facility most likely test bed for newer rotodome



Erieye in CHINA


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## ghazi52

It is a great news. .........


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## nomi007

finally family completed
*S/N 11-001




S/N 12-002




S/N 13-003




S/N 14-004



*

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## ghazi52

It is great..................

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## princefaisal

http://www.******************/dbtgallery.php?do=gallery_image&id=3257&gal=gallery&type=full 
*11-002*

http://www.******************/dbtgallery.php?do=gallery_image&id=2329&gal=gallery&type=full 
*12-003*


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## Taha Samad

This data was lost when site was attacked in April 2016, resulting in loss of data after Mar 19th, 2015.

Just posting it for record.

Looks like PAF is taking delivery of another Saab 2000 air frame. @Bilal Khan 777 mentioned that this will be converted to Erieye AEW&C locally, using a new Erieye System ordered from Sweden.

*EDIT:*
_Hence PAF will attain back its planned strength of 4 Saab AEW&C systems + 1 in VIP/Transport/Training config._



> *029 - SAAB 2000 SE-029 SAAB Aircraft, Linköping*
> Flew Linköping - Timisoara - Dubai-Al Maktoum - .... on delivery to Pakistan Air Force, in basic Polet c/s. Aircraft had been stored initially at Örebro from *Feb-2014* and subsequently at Linköping from *Sep-2015*.
> 
> http://regionalturbopropspotter.blogspot.com/2016/04/aircraft-update-for-01-apr-2016.html

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## Bilal Khan 777

Taha Samad said:


> This data was lost when site was attacked in April 2016, resulting in loss of data after Mar 19th, 2015.
> 
> Just posting it for record.
> 
> Looks like PAF is taking delivery of another Saab 2000 air frame. @Bilal Khan 777 mentioned that this will be converted to Erieye AEW&C locally, using a new Erieye System ordered from Sweden.
> 
> *EDIT:*
> _Hence PAF will attain back its planned strength of 4 Saab AEW&C systems + 1 in VIP/Transport/Training config._



Work underway for a while. Three ERIEYE serviceable fourth one in conversion.

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## nomi007

glass cockpit of zdk-03

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## nomi007

pakistan is using HN1101-F Airborne Communication EW System

on its *Falcon DA-20*

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## TaimiKhan

nomi007 said:


> pakistan is using HN1101-F Airborne Communication EW System
> 
> on its *Falcon DA-20*
> View attachment 305092



I don't think we are using such system on the Falcons, though i did hear army or airforce guys used such EW systems especially in the COIN operations, especially the direction finding systems & jamming systems. And helicopters were mostly used to my knowledge. May be the pic had been given as an example that it can be entertained in such kind of aircraft.


----------



## v9s

Saab Receives Order Within AEW&C
(Source: Saab AB; issued May 30, 2016)
Defence and security company Saab has received an order within the Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) segment. The order amounts to approx. SEK 1.1 billion. Deliveries will be made from 2016 until 2018. 

The airborne early warning and control system (AEW&C) provides access to a detailed situational awareness that for example can be used for border surveillance, search and rescue operations and for tackling terrorism and organised crime. 

The effectiveness of the underlying contract is subject to fulfilment of certain financial conditions. 

The industry’s nature is such that due to circumstances concerning the product and customer, further information about the customer will not be announced. 

Work will be undertaken within Saab’s business area Surveillance and business area Support and Services. 


Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions within military defence and civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents around the world. Through innovative, collaborative and pragmatic thinking, Saab develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers’ changing needs.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...aab-wins-new-aew&c-order-worth-sek-1.1bn.html

Any idea who this could be?


----------



## Falcon26

Probably a Middle Eastern country. Last time an undisclosed country ordered Saab systems, it turned out in Saudi Arabia. So might be related. Highly doubtful it's Pakistan.


----------



## Quwa

Falcon26 said:


> Probably a Middle Eastern country. Last time an undisclosed country ordered Saab systems, it turned out in Saudi Arabia. So might be related. Highly doubtful it's Pakistan.


Could also be Pakistan. A genuinely credible member - @Bilal Khan 777 - claimed that the PAF was working on replacing the Erieye it lost in 2012. It had secured the Saab 2000 it'll use, so it may now be ordering the Erieye system. As to why Sweden wouldn't disclose the name; in Pakistan's case, it is probably a matter of not wanting to upset India.

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## v9s

Saab has received a contract worth around SKr1.1 billion ($132 million) to provide airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) *system equipment* to an undisclosed customer.

“Deliveries will be made from 2016 until 2018,” the Swedish company said on 30 May. “Further information about the customer will not be announced,” it adds.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/saab-adds-to-its-aewc-order-backlog-425879/

Might be us!


----------



## nomi007

many people dont know that we have also usa base surveillance aircrafts
*KING AIR 350ER

















*

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## Path-Finder

nomi007 said:


> many people dont know that we have also usa base surveillance aircrafts
> *KING AIR 350ER
> 
> View attachment 321765
> View attachment 321766
> View attachment 321767
> View attachment 321768
> View attachment 321769
> *


Is this the reason why so many miscreants are being apprehended?


----------



## nomi007

Path-Finder said:


> Is this the reason why so many miscreants are being apprehended?


yp


----------



## Arsalan

v9s said:


> Saab has received a contract worth around SKr1.1 billion ($132 million) to provide airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) *system equipment* to an undisclosed customer.
> 
> “Deliveries will be made from 2016 until 2018,” the Swedish company said on 30 May. “Further information about the customer will not be announced,” it adds.
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/saab-adds-to-its-aewc-order-backlog-425879/
> 
> Might be us!


Wont be us!
China is going to be the source we would look towards for needs in this particular area. No chance of SAAB especially after the post Kamra attack issues we faced with them.


----------



## Quwa

Arsalan said:


> Wont be us!
> China is going to be the source we would look towards for needs in this particular area. No chance of SAAB especially after the post Kamra attack issues we faced with them.


@Bilal Khan 777 said that the destroyed Erieye will be replaced by another - an aircraft for the purpose was already bought. This deal with Saab could be for the necessary subsystems.

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## Arsalan

Quwa said:


> @Bilal Khan 777 said that the destroyed Erieye will be replaced by another - an aircraft for the purpose was already bought. This deal with Saab could be for the necessary subsystems.


Was it confirmed to be replaced by another aircraft or by another Erieye SAAB aircraft? 
As far as i know we had some parts and maintenance issues with the supplier after those attacks and it got worst with those hangings etc. I may be missing something here. You have tagged the BOSS already and you too are here so i would take it as an opportunity to update myself on this issue


----------



## Beast

Saab Arieye is less capable compare to ZDK-03. Smaller, less payload, less loiter time and a less powerful radar.

Why would PAF turn back to buy an expensive platform when they used the same money to buy another ZDK-03?


----------



## Danish saleem

nomi007 said:


> many people dont know that we have also usa base surveillance aircrafts
> *KING AIR 350ER
> 
> View attachment 321765
> View attachment 321766
> View attachment 321767
> View attachment 321768
> View attachment 321769
> *



in which Numbers??


----------



## ZAC1

Beast said:


> Saab Arieye is less capable compare to ZDK-03. Smaller, less payload, less loiter time and a less powerful radar.
> 
> Why would PAF turn back to buy an expensive platform when they used the same money to buy another ZDK-03?



PA,PAF,PN always want variety of tech


----------



## Falcon26

Quwa said:


> Could also be Pakistan. A genuinely credible member - @Bilal Khan 777 - claimed that the PAF was working on replacing the Erieye it lost in 2012. It had secured the Saab 2000 it'll use, so it may now be ordering the Erieye system. As to why Sweden wouldn't disclose the name; in Pakistan's case, it is probably a matter of not wanting to upset India.



Aren't you Bilal Khan? Most of the articles on Quwa are written by Bilal Khan. Big fan of the website!


----------



## Quwa

Falcon26 said:


> Aren't you Bilal Khan? Most of the articles on Quwa are written by Bilal Khan. Big fan of the website!


I'm the Quwa BK, but BK 777 is a retired PAF officer.

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## ziaulislam

Quwa said:


> Could also be Pakistan. A genuinely credible member - @Bilal Khan 777 - claimed that the PAF was working on replacing the Erieye it lost in 2012. It had secured the Saab 2000 it'll use, so it may now be ordering the Erieye system. As to why Sweden wouldn't disclose the name; in Pakistan's case, it is probably a matter of not wanting to upset India.


given the fact that deal is so small and limited, it is an existing customer not a new one, so there is ogood probablity that might be us


----------



## nomi007

Danish saleem said:


> in which Numbers??


most probably 3-4

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## Super Falcon

Pakistan Airforce should focus on procuring bigger AWACS based on IL 78 Or Boeing 777 Like a rotating dome in it we have smaller platforms which means it has a limited range of 400 to 500 km but if we get two advanced AWACS in range of 800 to 1000 kam it is very flexible option specifically for all 3 forces


----------



## Thorough Pro

Rotating DOME is old tech, you don't need mechanical movement for AESA



Super Falcon said:


> Pakistan Airforce should focus on procuring bigger AWACS based on IL 78 Or Boeing 777 Like a rotating dome in it we have smaller platforms which means it has a limited range of 400 to 500 km but if we get two advanced AWACS in range of 800 to 1000 kam it is very flexible option specifically for all 3 forces

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## SBD-3

Super Falcon said:


> Pakistan Airforce should focus on procuring bigger AWACS based on IL 78 Or Boeing 777 Like a rotating dome in it we have smaller platforms which means it has a limited range of 400 to 500 km but if we get two advanced AWACS in range of 800 to 1000 kam it is very flexible option specifically for all 3 forces


Why wasting funds on procuring a third platform when
1-Even the two haven't been fully integrated to combat assets yet. Pakistan is not a country of the size of Russia,China, US or India.
2-Debts of both are still being serviced.



Thorough Pro said:


> Rotating DOME is old tech, you don't need mechanical movement for AESA


Hawkeyes and Sentries still use this "Old tech". Its not about whether your dome rotates or not. It's about the capabilities of Radar and Systems being housed by AWACs and their ability to do their function as desired.
here's an example of what makes up an AWACS beyond the dome.

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## ebrahym

@Quwa Awacs should have long endurance right?
and the flying objects having long endurance are airships
many countries like UK, Israel are going for blimps
are we gonna see it or gonna focus on current AWACS acquisition
they will certainly be cost efficient?
or is airship based AWACS even viable?


----------



## Quwa

ebrahym said:


> @Quwa Awacs should have long endurance right?
> and the flying objects having long endurance are airships
> many countries like UK, Israel are going for blimps
> are we gonna see it or gonna focus on current AWACS acquisition
> they will certainly be cost efficient?
> or is airship based AWACS even viable?


I wouldn't know of the PAF's plans, but in regards to airship-based AEW&C, it is an interesting idea. I can see detractors pointing out the lower speed as a disadvantage, but one could argue that prop-based AEW&C have the same general problem. If one can do it at stand-off range with no threats, then it could be a worthwhile idea, especially if one is in possession of very powerful long-range radar technology.


----------



## ebrahym

Quwa said:


> but in regards to airship-based AEW&C, it is an interesting idea. I can see detractors pointing out the lower speed as a disadvantage, but one could argue that prop-based AEW&C have the same general problem. If one can do it at stand-off range with no threats, then it could be a worthwhile idea, especially if one is in possession of very powerful long-range radar technology.


will it be cost efficient as well ?
maintenance wise and room for gadget installation as most of Lighter than air concept has to be filled with lighter than air gas


----------



## Quwa

ebrahym said:


> will it be cost efficient as well ?
> maintenance wise and room for gadget installation as most of Lighter than air concept has to be filled with lighter than air gas


Cost efficiency depends on a few things - e.g. the cost of maintaining the specific aircraft and its components, the cost of the radar system and its maintenance, etc. It's impossible to give a general statement. 

For example, the U.S. could build an airship AEW&C, but only produce 2 or 3 of its kind. In of itself, this system could be very expensive to maintain, especially if the platform is not being used in the wider market. Alternatively, an AEW&C based on a commercially available platform with dozens of international users and a glut of spare parts could be cheaper to maintain.

Cost efficiency can only be judged on a case by case basis.

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## JamD

ebrahym said:


> @Quwa Awacs should have long endurance right?
> and the flying objects having long endurance are airships
> many countries like UK, Israel are going for blimps
> are we gonna see it or gonna focus on current AWACS acquisition
> they will certainly be cost efficient?
> or is airship based AWACS even viable?



I think this is the world's largest current airship (Airlander 10):
https://www.hybridairvehicles.com/downloads/Airlander-21.pdf

It can carry a payload of 20,000 kg (same as Y-8), but it can only go up to 16,000 ft (compared to 34,000 ft for Y-8). This sacrifices the detection range (I did a quick calculation):





Considering the reduction in detection range especially for low flying targets, I doubt it would be cost effective considering I am comparing the ZDK-03 with the largest airship I could find.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I think the Airlander 10 could make for a good ISR asset over low-AAW threat environments, such as COIN. We could fly one of these over an area for five days in a single sortie. One could potentially load a powerful ground facing SAR and use this as an airborne command post to manage land and air friendlies over FATA.


----------



## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the Airlander 10 could make for a good ISR asset over low-AAW threat environments, such as COIN. We could fly one of these over an area for five days in a single sortie. One could potentially load a powerful ground facing SAR and use this as an airborne command post to manage land and air friendlies over FATA.


Would it not be at risk from enemy fire. I dont think it will work well .
A


----------



## Dazzler

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the Airlander 10 could make for a good ISR asset over low-AAW threat environments, such as COIN. We could fly one of these over an area for five days in a single sortie. One could potentially load a powerful ground facing SAR and use this as an airborne command post to manage land and air friendlies over FATA.



That poor little boy just crashed on its second test flight.

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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007

why we are not asking google to ban these images

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## Army research

nomi007 said:


> why we are not asking google to ban these images
> View attachment 339340


Sir other than google those who want to get these have Alot of ways , any way security seems fine


----------



## Windjammer

ECM/ ELINT C-130.

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## Dazzler



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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> ECM/ ELINT C-130.


back doors are missing


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## Windjammer

nomi007 said:


> back doors are missing



They are open.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Windjammer said:


> They are open.



This is a classic example of perception.

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## syed_yusuf

How many Saab aew are operational with paf

Last we know was 3 while 1 is under rebuild status?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

syed_yusuf said:


> How many Saab aew are operational with paf
> 
> Last we know was 3 while 1 is under rebuild status?


From what I can remember: 2 active or flying, 1 under repair, 1 in the acquisition pipeline (to replace the destroyed unit. A surplus Saab 2000 was bought a while ago, and Saab recorded an Erieye related purchase from an undisclosed customer shortly after).

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## Bilal Khan 777

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> From what I can remember: 2 active or flying, 1 under repair, 1 in the acquisition pipeline (to replace the destroyed unit. A surplus Saab 2000 was bought a while ago, and Saab recorded an Erieye related purchase from an undisclosed customer shortly after).



3 units are now fully commissioned and flying, and one on order as attrition replacement. This does not include the civilian version.

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## ali_raza

Windjammer said:


> ECM/ ELINT C-130.


looks a bit old but classy


----------



## nomi007

best option to replace destroy saab awacs
with
more advance
saab global awacs
1-2 units are enough











“With GlobalEye we expand and sharpen our offering, targeting customers looking to maximise their return on investment in extended AEW&C capabilities as a national asset to benefit their country,” says Micael Johansson, head of Saab’s business area Electronic Defence Systems.

The truly multi-role GlobalEye automatically detects and tracks air and surface targets over a huge area. Ground surveillance of moving vehicles can be conducted through long-range, wide-area ground moving target indication (GMTI) radar modes. With the Erieye ER radar, detection and tracking ranges have been significantly increased compared to existing airborne radars, and against the smallest targets. The GlobalEye system can track very low-observable air and sea targets, including ‘stealthy’ aircraft, cruise missiles or submarine periscopes, even in heavy clutter and jamming environments.

“GlobalEye is a game changer that delivers a unique swing-role capability for simultaneous air, maritime and ground surveillance in a single solution, with the ability to change role dynamically, while airborne during any mission,” says Micael Johansson.

The GlobalEye integrates a comprehensive suite of sensors, including signals intelligence, and advanced self-protection equipment with a newly-developed command, control and communication system. Cost-effective system availability is assured through the combination of a small organisational footprint and Saab’s
in-service support.

Saab is able to take the prime contractor role for this groundbreaking AEW&C system because of its decades of expertise and innovation in radar technology, but also through its detailed knowledge of electronic warfare, C4I solutions and systems and platform integration. A large proportion of GlobalEye’s sub systems are sourced from Saab’s world-leading product range.

A key element of the GlobalEye system is the Global 6000 ultra-long-range jet aircraft from Bombardier. This offers the latest avionics and combines ideal size for multi-role and extended AEW&C with outstanding performance. It is a high speed aircraft with impressive short field performance and low operating costs. Thanks to the Global 6000 platform GlobalEye mission endurance can extend up to 11 hours.

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## syed_yusuf

3 days ago i was flyng out of KHI, my plane want over Faisal airbase and i saw one KE03, 2 C130 and 3 P3C parked. now what kind of security is that. this is high time to move military specific assetts from faisal base to other locations.


----------



## Imran Khan

syed_yusuf said:


> 3 days ago i was flyng out of KHI, my plane want over Faisal airbase and i saw one KE03, 2 C130 and 3 P3C parked. now what kind of security is that. this is high time to move military specific assetts from faisal base to other locations.


bhai ji unky konsy jaib se pesy lagy hain? . they will never learn and never stop tall claims . and yes they think we B.civilians are stupid we must shut our mouth .

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## syed_yusuf

or they can move the assets to masroor


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## Imran Khan

syed_yusuf said:


> or they can move the assets to masroor


why should they ? you have to wait until next something big happen and our airforce will go bomb the mountains and claim they killed 400 terrorists and dont forget DEHSHAT GARDOON KI KAMAR TOOT GAI HAI

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> ECM/ ELINT C-130.




South based No 21 Sqn. Second C-130 Sqn ??? Elephant vs 6 Sqn insignia


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## syed_yusuf

Where is this squadron is based off


----------



## Windjammer

nomi007 said:


> back doors are missing





Windjammer said:


> They are open.



And here's the reason.

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## Windjammer



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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 362673


very old pic


----------



## TOPGUN

nomi007 said:


> very old pic



Old is gold ... doesn't matter still a nice picture yet a picture I am seeing for the first time.

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## Naif al Hilali

nomi007 said:


> best option to replace destroy saab awacs
> with
> more advance
> saab global awacs
> 1-2 units are enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “With GlobalEye we expand and sharpen our offering, targeting customers looking to maximise their return on investment in extended AEW&C capabilities as a national asset to benefit their country,” says Micael Johansson, head of Saab’s business area Electronic Defence Systems.
> 
> The truly multi-role GlobalEye automatically detects and tracks air and surface targets over a huge area. Ground surveillance of moving vehicles can be conducted through long-range, wide-area ground moving target indication (GMTI) radar modes. With the Erieye ER radar, detection and tracking ranges have been significantly increased compared to existing airborne radars, and against the smallest targets. The GlobalEye system can track very low-observable air and sea targets, including ‘stealthy’ aircraft, cruise missiles or submarine periscopes, even in heavy clutter and jamming environments.
> 
> “GlobalEye is a game changer that delivers a unique swing-role capability for simultaneous air, maritime and ground surveillance in a single solution, with the ability to change role dynamically, while airborne during any mission,” says Micael Johansson.
> 
> The GlobalEye integrates a comprehensive suite of sensors, including signals intelligence, and advanced self-protection equipment with a newly-developed command, control and communication system. Cost-effective system availability is assured through the combination of a small organisational footprint and Saab’s
> in-service support.
> 
> Saab is able to take the prime contractor role for this groundbreaking AEW&C system because of its decades of expertise and innovation in radar technology, but also through its detailed knowledge of electronic warfare, C4I solutions and systems and platform integration. A large proportion of GlobalEye’s sub systems are sourced from Saab’s world-leading product range.
> 
> A key element of the GlobalEye system is the Global 6000 ultra-long-range jet aircraft from Bombardier. This offers the latest avionics and combines ideal size for multi-role and extended AEW&C with outstanding performance. It is a high speed aircraft with impressive short field performance and low operating costs. Thanks to the Global 6000 platform GlobalEye mission endurance can extend up to 11 hours.


Not easy to keep adding airframes; it is a huge expense.

Turboprops are more efficient at loitering and just as effective if you don't have to fly long distances to your patrol area.


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## Windjammer



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## ziaulislam

Imran Khan said:


> bhai ji unky konsy jaib se pesy lagy hain? . they will never learn and never stop tall claims . and yes they think we B.civilians are stupid we must shut our mouth .


i agree the second event of destroyed saab was after the first one, which destroyed 3 precious P3C orions...
the security is still pathetic, we spend billion to get another one but didn't spend a penny for increasaing security like walls, instead keeping container walls, PC hotel in Peshawar seems to have better security and blast walls

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## Bossman

ziaulislam said:


> i agree the second event of destroyed saab was after the first one, which destroyed 3 precious P3C orions...
> the security is still pathetic, we spend billion to get another one but didn't spend a penny for increasaing security like walls, instead keeping container walls, PC hotel in Peshawar seems to have better security and blast walls



Wrong, all active bases as well as some of the satellites now have very high perimeter walls or are in process of being constructed. You can check on Google Earth. Plus manned patrolling and security has been greatly enhanced.


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## DJ_Viper

nomi007 said:


> why we are not asking google to ban these images
> View attachment 339340



Why is there a container wall? Why not build a real wall on the back, and build a proper hanger up front?

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## Bossman

DJ_Viper said:


> Why is there a container wall? Why not build a real wall on the back, and build a proper hanger up front?


 Because they can be removed if needed. Walls are permanent

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## Inception-06

Bossman said:


> Because they can be removed if needed. Walls are permanent



No offense, only provocation, so PAF prefers container wall instead of hardened walls/shelters for its AWACS?


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## Bossman

Ulla said:


> No offense, only provocation, so PAF prefers container wall instead of hardened walls/shelters for its AWACS?


Go look at PAF bases on Google Earth and the number of HASs. Most of its aircrafts operate out of HASs on a regular basis and not only during war time. It's silly to draw conclusions from a single picture. This particular picture is from AFB Faisal where the main tarmac is vulnerable to intrusion from the marshes on the other side of the runway. These containers have been placed on a taxiway as added security within the base perimeter to secure a potential access point to the tarmac. Containers provide better protection than walls and can be removed if needed. AWACs are not permanently based at Faisal. Most probably there for maintenance. Now all major bases have specialized hangers for AWACs surrounded by blast walls.

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## nomi007

ALL SAAB 2000 awacs

*10025 025 Saab 2000 AEW&C SE-025*
Delivered to PAF 1n May-2010.






*10040 040 Saab 2000 AEW&C SE-040*
Delivered to PAF in July-2010






*10045 045 Saab 2000 AEW&C SE-045*
Deleivered to PAF in October-2011







*10049 049 Saab 2000 AEW&C SE-049*
Delivered to PAF in February-2010






*J-019 019 Saab 2000 VIP Transport PAF SE-019*
Deliver in September 2008


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## syed_yusuf

Which on of them got destroyed and repaired


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## nomi007

syed_yusuf said:


> Which on of them got destroyed and repaired



*10025 025 Saab 2000 AEW&C SE-025*


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## syed_yusuf

nomi007 said:


> *10025 025 Saab 2000 AEW&C SE-025*


And the remains 3 are all operational?


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## Saim Ahmed Butt




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## nomi007

syed_yusuf said:


> And the remains 3 are all operational?


at the time of attack
one awacs was in air
3 were on ground
2 were damage badly but were repaired 
1 out of 3 was almost completely destroyed later repaired

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## syed_yusuf

nomi007 said:


> at the time of attack
> one awacs was in air
> 3 were on ground
> 2 were damage badly but were repaired
> 1 out of 3 was almost completely destroyed later repaired



so we are back to 4 operational - thanks

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## nomi007

syed_yusuf said:


> so we are back to 4 operational - thanks


most probably


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## syed_yusuf

nomi007 said:


> most probably




Good news

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## ziaulislam

nomi007 said:


> most probably


last i hear one was damaged beyond repair while the other 2 repaired and now operational
so we have three in operation, there were rumors of buying new equipment and newer aircraft to get the strength back to fourth but no evidence whether than happend or not

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## Taha Samad

ziaulislam said:


> last i hear one was damaged beyond repair while the other 2 repaired and now operational
> so we have three in operation, there were rumors of buying new equipment and newer aircraft to get the strength back to fourth but no evidence whether than happend or not



There were news of a Saab airframe delivery flight to Pakistan on civil aviation websites. I even posted links & screen caps(but then site got hacked & data was lost). One of the ex-serviceman on forum confirmed this, that the new airframe will get new radar equipment to get strength back to 4.

Link to my another post on this topic with relevant links: https://defence.pk/threads/2-damaged-saab-awac-repaired.454225/page-7#post-8786515


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## fatman17

The latest rumor (June 2015) suggested that the AWACS might be upgraded in the future with a fixed AESA radar similar to the one onboard KJ-500 replacing the Pesa Radar.

- Last Updated 1/20/17

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## nomi007




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## messiach

You are right.



fatman17 said:


> View attachment 370227
> View attachment 370228
> The latest rumor (June 2015) suggested that the AWACS might be upgraded in the future with a fixed AESA radar similar to the one onboard KJ-500 replacing the Pesa Radar.
> 
> - Last Updated 1/20/17

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## Moiz ur Rehman

Good news


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## nomi007

the CAEIT Institute of the Chinese electronics group CETC has published a photo of an AWACS development team, in which the model of an AWACS embarked, next to that of *ZDK-03* sold in Pakistan. The ECCC is the main supplier of electronic equipment, including AWACS radars, for the Chinese Army.

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## Cool_Soldier

great


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## nomi007



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## Cool_Soldier

Simply Love it !


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## Windjammer



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## Cool_Soldier

We should start manufacturing such beauties by ourselves too.


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## Centurion2016

GUYS quick question

WHY have Pakistan gone for turbo prop propeller planes ..........Surely they are slower and more at risk .

The Indians have gone for more modern platforms for both the Phalcon & indian indengious Awacs











IM not suggesting one is better than the other PLEASE don't kill me guys.

AWACS are crucial in war so the better more modern the platform the more effective and safer your coverage

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## Khafee

Centurion2016 said:


> GUYS quick question
> 
> WHY have Pakistan gone for turbo prop propeller planes ..........Surely they are slower and more at risk .
> 
> The Indians have gone for more modern platforms for both the Phalcon & indian indengious Awacs
> 
> View attachment 377653
> 
> 
> View attachment 377654
> 
> 
> IM not suggesting one is better than the other PLEASE don't kill me guys.
> 
> AWACS are crucial in war so the better more modern the platform the more effective and safer your coverage


Nobody needs to kill an Indian, he is capable of doing it himself.

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## Centurion2016

Khafee said:


> Nobody needs to kill an Indian, he is capable of doing it himself.



ignore the question Khafee

But play the insult

Ty;pical


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## Khafee

Centurion2016 said:


> ignore the question Khafee
> 
> But play the insult
> 
> Ty;pical


No point in answering a bharati troll.

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## syed_yusuf

Centurion2016 said:


> GUYS quick question
> 
> WHY have Pakistan gone for turbo prop propeller planes ..........Surely they are slower and more at risk .
> 
> The Indians have gone for more modern platforms for both the Phalcon & indian indengious Awacs
> 
> View attachment 377653
> 
> 
> View attachment 377654
> 
> 
> IM not suggesting one is better than the other PLEASE don't kill me guys.
> 
> AWACS are crucial in war so the better more modern the platform the more effective and safer your coverage



why you think platform picked by PAF are inferior?


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## syed_yusuf

Centurion2016 said:


> TURBO PROP OLD PROPELLAR planes can you see the difference



No i do not, just because planes are turbo pro, does not mean they are inferior

beside do you know why PAF picked turbo prob v/s jet engine aircraft for 2 different AEWCS platforms? if not get some research done, learn, read and then post a question

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## TOPGUN

Centurion2016 said:


> GUYS quick question
> 
> WHY have Pakistan gone for turbo prop propeller planes ..........Surely they are slower and more at risk .
> 
> The Indians have gone for more modern platforms for both the Phalcon & indian indengious Awacs
> 
> View attachment 377653
> 
> 
> View attachment 377654
> 
> 
> IM not suggesting one is better than the other PLEASE don't kill me guys.
> 
> AWACS are crucial in war so the better more modern the platform the more effective and safer your coverage




This is not your indian section ask these questions in the indian section. Every AF has their reasons , needs and choice so does PAF and trust me they are a lot more smarter then us.

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## Falcon26

Centurion2016 said:


> GUYS quick question
> 
> WHY have Pakistan gone for turbo prop propeller planes ..........Surely they are slower and more at risk .
> 
> The Indians have gone for more modern platforms for both the Phalcon & indian indengious Awacs
> 
> View attachment 377653
> 
> 
> View attachment 377654
> 
> 
> IM not suggesting one is better than the other PLEASE don't kill me guys.
> 
> AWACS are crucial in war so the better more modern the platform the more effective and safer your coverage



I think Pakistan actually selected the Saab 2000 over the Embraer R-99 in use by other Erieye operators for efficiency & maintenance reasons. I actually find the Saab 2000 equipped erieye much more pleasing to the eye. But then everyone has their own taste. Real question is of capabilities and the Erieyes are some of the best machines in South Asia for the job they were designed for.

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## Centurion2016

Falcon26 said:


> I think Pakistan actually selected the Saab 2000 over the Embraer R-99 in use by other Erieye operators for efficiency & maintenance reasons. I actually find the Saab 2000 equipped erieye much more pleasing to the eye. But then everyone has their own taste. Real question is of capabilities and the Erieyes are some of the best machines in South Asia for the job they were designed for.



Phalcon swacs of Israel is rated even higher than e3,sentry.

360 degrees coverage via laser beam no rotating radar. Aveage rotation of beam ten times as fast as a rotating radar 

This is only what I read in various web sites.

No expert.

I do know phalcon cost ,400million dollars each . Very very expensive.

In contrast Indian awacs only 90million each


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## Falcon26

Centurion2016 said:


> Phalcon swacs of Israel is rated even higher than e3,sentry.
> 
> 360 degrees coverage via laser beam no rotating radar. Aveage rotation of beam ten times as fast as a rotating radar
> 
> This is only what I read in various web sites.
> 
> No expert.
> 
> I do know phalcon cost ,400million dollars each . Very very expensive.
> 
> In contrast Indian awacs only 90million each



Actually the DRDO AEW&C costs 400 million dollars a unit. I have no idea how India justifies these exuberant price and not to mention its detection range is 250km. This in my view is outrageous for an indigenous system even if we assume most of the cost is going towards the plane and subsequent modifications. http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18...Be_Handed_Over_During_Aero_India#.WKJCq_krKUk

The Erieye uses multiple subsystems to get 360 degree coverage. This issue has been discussed multiple time but if others want to add to the discussion then it's good.

Pakistan has 8 active AWACS not to mention other systems like Beechcraft Super King Air and falcons and P3 Orions. Really in terms of surveillance and reconnaissance and, Pakistan is miles ahead of the pack. Only missing piece is dedicated military satellites. This is an area India has been allowed to surge ahead.

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## Tank131

@Centurion2016 

The reason turboprops were selected was because they a less expensive to operate and maintain and they have better loiter times than similar sized jets. In the case of the Saab 2000, it also had near jet performance.

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## Guynextdoor2

Falcon26 said:


> Actually the DRDO AEW&C costs 400 million dollars a unit. I have no idea how India justifies these exuberant price and not to mention its detection range is 250km. This in my view is outrageous for an indigenous system even if we assume most of the cost is going towards the plane and subsequent modifications. http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18...Be_Handed_Over_During_Aero_India#.WKJCq_krKUk
> 
> The Erieye uses multiple subsystems to get 360 degree coverage. This issue has been discussed multiple time but if others want to add to the discussion then it's good.
> 
> Pakistan has 8 active AWACS not to mention other systems like Beechcraft Super King Air and falcons and P3 Orions. Really in terms of surveillance and reconnaissance and, Pakistan is miles ahead of the pack. Only missing piece is dedicated military satellites. This is an area India has been allowed to surge ahead.



where did you get these numbers? From what I remember per unit is about 40% cheaper. If you're adding development costs that is capex that we will recover through multiple applications of R&D, export etc.


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## Falcon26

Guynextdoor2 said:


> where did you get these numbers? From what I remember per unit is about 40% cheaper. If you're adding development costs that is capex that we will recover through multiple applications of R&D, export etc.



From DRDO executives. Please check the link I posted.


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## Guynextdoor2

Falcon26 said:


> From DRDO executives. Please check the link I posted.



and I also noted you left out the Phalcons and Poseidons of India


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## Falcon26

Guynextdoor2 said:


> and I also noted you left out the Phalcons and Poseidons of India



Don't put on your typical Indian hat, please. I was simply talking about number of surveillance systems in Pakistan with relations to its geographic size. It has nothing to do with India. That was not the point of my comment. You Indians need to learn at carrying conversations without your inferiority complex about every subject matter kicking in.

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## Arsalan

Cool_Soldier said:


> We should start manufacturing such beauties by ourselves too.


Really not required. The numbers required is small and there is no sense in designing and manufacturing it by ourself. However i do feel that with some advancements in the radar and sensor area will be welcoming and that can shape up into AWACS as well as sensor and radar package for our fighters and other EW aircrafts. For the plane part, just buy what suites you as the number required is low.



Centurion2016 said:


> GUYS quick question
> 
> WHY have Pakistan gone for turbo prop propeller planes ..........Surely they are slower and more at risk .
> 
> The Indians have gone for more modern platforms for both the Phalcon & indian indengious Awacs
> 
> View attachment 377653
> 
> 
> View attachment 377654
> 
> 
> IM not suggesting one is better than the other PLEASE don't kill me guys.
> 
> AWACS are crucial in war so the better more modern the platform the more effective and safer your coverage


Because the turboprops are easier and cheaper to operate and maintain and because they get the job done perfectly for Pakistan (area the need to patrol).


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## Deadpool

Falcon26 said:


> Actually the DRDO AEW&C costs 400 million dollars a unit.


That includes developmental charges.
When you buy from a foreign company, these charges are not included, only manufacturing and a certain percentage profit is included.

DRDO AEW&C will cost much less if we just include manufacturing charges and a profit percentage and decrease as the technology is used in other platforms.

For example, it will be cheaper to build the bigger Airbus A330 AWACS for DRDO now because the technology is already developed.


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## Guynextdoor2

Rajput Warrior said:


> Mother india did.
> 
> They are taking her
> 
> 
> word for it ..



Considering how we have managed to screw a certain country, I think the evidence is there for all to see

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## Falcon26

Deadpool said:


> That includes developmental charges.
> When you buy from a foreign company, these charges are not included, only manufacturing and a certain percentage profit is included.
> 
> DRDO AEW&C will cost much less if we just include manufacturing charges and a profit percentage and decrease as the technology is used in other platforms.
> 
> For example, it will be cheaper to build the bigger Airbus A330 AWACS for DRDO now because the technology is already developed.



This is not correct. This is what the DRDO official claimed 

“Presently, our estimate is for the first two AEW&Cs will be about 9200 crores (USD 1.3 billion) followed by four numbers will be about similar number. So on an average, the production cost of an AEW&Cs will be about 2.6-2.7 thousand crores (USD 404 million),” Chirstopher said.

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## Arsalan

@Slav Defence @TaimiKhan @Manticore May need to hand a few warnings here. We cannot afford to let people fight like we see here post 4661 onward!

@Guynextdoor2 and @Rajput Warrior i am not sure what is the reason for this idiocity and how all this can make any of you feel better or proud. Anyway, if that is the case the forum still cannot allow any of this. Please take this load of crap somewhere else.

@WebMaster @Horus i have reported all the posts but they didn't disappeared/hide as they used to do previously. That was one good feature and the reported posts were temporarily hidden from open forum and then MODs can come in and take a final decision about that post. IF THAT FEATURE NO LONGER AVAILABLE?

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## The Eagle

No more off-topic discussion. Member(s) can avoid topic if not interested or disagree. Thanks

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## Rain

Falcon26 said:


> This is not correct. This is what the DRDO official claimed
> 
> “Presently, our estimate is for the first two AEW&Cs will be about 9200 crores (USD 1.3 billion) followed by four numbers will be about similar number. So on an average, the production cost of an AEW&Cs will be about 2.6-2.7 thousand crores (USD 404 million),” Chirstopher said.


Many Indian really have serious comprehension problems. Let them do was they good at. all reasonable people from the forum got ur point.( Useless to argue with Indians)

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## Khafee

The Eagle said:


> No more off-topic discussion. Member(s) can avoid topic if not interested or disagree. Thanks


What is this nonsense? This thread is about PAF's AEW capability, and these monkeys, including an inferiority ridden false flagger, have derailed this thread with their crap about dodo and what not!

Please delete all off topic posts, and hand out infractions, enough of this BS!

Thank You!

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> What is this nonsense? This thread is about PAF's AEW capability, and these monkeys, including an inferiority ridden false flagger, have derailed this thread with their crap about dodo and what not!
> 
> Please delete all off topic posts, and hand out infractions, enough of this BS!
> 
> Thank You!



Sir, needful is done though was necessary to inform here as well. In-case of any offensive/off-topic etc post found, kindly report. 

Regards,

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## Khafee

Gregor Clegane said:


> Fail.
> Pakistan has nothing comparable to P-8I and RAW's Global 5000.
> 
> And I am not even including the Gulfstreams and IAI Astra surveillance jets.


@The Eagle Look at this crap

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## Guynextdoor2

Dazzler said:


> And what this has to do with Pakistan's *Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts?
> Can you read the thread title?*



Did you even read the post?


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## Dazzler

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Did you even read the post?



Even if someone goes off topic, there is no need to respond. Open another thread for dick measuring.

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## Guynextdoor2

Dazzler said:


> Even if someone goes off topic, there is no need to respond. Open another thread for dick measuring.



so you didn't read the post

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## ziaulislam

Saab 2000 is the fastest non jet airline aircraft. A best choice for an AWACS. Mix of efficiency of turboprop and speed of jet


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## Windjammer



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## Rocky rock

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 383907



Saab 2000 is quite smaller in terms of size than ZDK-03.


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## Windjammer

Rocky rock said:


> Saab 2000 is quite smaller in terms of size than ZDK-03.


Two engine difference.


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## Rocky rock

Windjammer said:


> Two engine difference.



Not only the Engine check out the whole Diameter Height,Width in all terms ZDK is bigger.


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## Windjammer

Rocky rock said:


> Not only the Engine check out the whole Diameter Height,Width in all terms ZDK is bigger.


That's what i mean, it's size needs four engine to support.


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## Readerdefence

Any credible lead if someone have about pairing Zdk with jf17 ?


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## Rocky rock

Readerdefence said:


> Any credible lead if someone have about pairing Zdk with jf17 ?



The major Similarity is home grown Data-Link 17 which they also pronounce as "Rabta". This same Data-Link is being used in both of these Aircraft's Which make them connected and work as combined force by staying connected with C&C on Ground to Perform any operation while staying Airborne.

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## Taha Samad

Good News, it seems PAF has regained or will soon regain its original strength of 4 AWACS + 1 Transport / Trainer Saab-2000.

PAF took delivery of another Saab-2000 AWACS in 2016. There was news of this delivery on Civil Aviation websites also. @Bilal Khan 777 confirmed that it was meant as replacement of one of the completely destroyed Saab-2000 with a new Radar & other Equipment ordered from Sweden.

We know from past posts, news & released pictures that:

040 was operating soon after Kamra attack in an exercise.
025 was repaired extensively(As seen in Wajahat Saleem's show & pictures of 23rd March 2016 Parade Rehearsals)
One of 045, 049 was damaged beyond repair while other was damaged slightly and repaired.(as per statement of defense secretary in parliament).

So it appears 019 will act as replacement and be converted to AWACS, while 029 will act as Transport / Trainer.

 PAF Saab-2000s
Saab J-029
ACM Interview with PTV in March 2017
Saab J-029 with PAF: https://goo.gl/19q5dX

Hopefully they are protected better this time around.

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## fatman17

ZDK03

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## khanasifm

Taha Samad said:


> Good News, it seems PAF has regained or will soon regain its original strength of 4 AWACS + 1 Transport / Trainer Saab-2000.
> 
> PAF took delivery of another Saab-2000 AWACS in 2016. There was news of this delivery on Civil Aviation websites also. @Bilal Khan 777 confirmed that it was meant as replacement of one of the completely destroyed Saab-2000 with a new Radar & other Equipment ordered from Sweden.
> 
> We know from past posts, news & released pictures that:
> 
> 040 was operating soon after Kamra attack in an exercise.
> 025 was repaired extensively(As seen in Wajahat Saleem's show & pictures of 23rd March 2016 Parade Rehearsals)
> One of 045, 049 was damaged beyond repair while other was damaged slightly and repaired.(as per statement of defense secretary in parliament).
> 
> So it appears 019 will act as replacement and be converted to AWACS, while 029 will act as Transport / Trainer.
> 
> PAF Saab-2000s
> Saab J-029
> ACM Interview with PTV in March 2017
> Saab J-029 with PAF: https://goo.gl/19q5dX
> 
> Hopefully they are protected better this time around.




it may be the case that 019 may be converted to spares and used to repair the damaged one. Mounting radar on the top required extensive strengthening the roof of the aircraft

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## Taha Samad

khanasifm said:


> it may be the case that 019 may be converted to spares and used to repair the damaged one. Mounting radar on the top required extensive strengthening the roof of the aircraft



True, but none the less bottom line being, it seems PAF will regain its original strength of 4 + 1 Saab.

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## fatman17



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## aziqbal

Wouldn't be surprised if PAF picks up a 4th Erieye 

If you want eyes in the sky then to have one bird in the air 24/7 you need 4 

1 on patrol 
1 on the ready to take off when one comes down 
1 in overhaul/maintenance 
And 1 in training 

If you have 3 then it doesn't work which is why they also bought ZDK-03 in 4s 

AWACS needs a lot of ground work and also sucks up a lot of resources dividing all the work on 3 units will wear them down quick this way the work is split between 4 units longer lifetime per aircraft 

A good move I hope PAF go for 4 x KJ-500 AWACS 

Northern, Eastern and Southern command covered

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## Cornered Tiger

aziqbal said:


> Wouldn't be surprised if PAF picks up a 4th Erieye
> 
> If you want eyes in the sky then to have one bird in the air 24/7 you need 4
> 
> 1 on patrol
> 1 on the ready to take off when one comes down
> 1 in overhaul/maintenance
> And 1 in training
> 
> If you have 3 then it doesn't work which is why they also bought ZDK-03 in 4s
> 
> AWACS needs a lot of ground work and also sucks up a lot of resources dividing all the work on 3 units will wear them down quick this way the work is split between 4 units longer lifetime per aircraft
> 
> A good move I hope PAF go for 4 x KJ-500 AWACS
> 
> Northern, Eastern and Southern command covered


Sir ACM Sohail Aman in his recent interview has said that PAF has repaired the both the damaged Erieyes locally. So we can assume that PAF has deployed all of the four again. Plus PAF has also taken the delivery of another Saab-2000 in 2016, Dont know what role it will assume.


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## nomi007




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## Basel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/858304450544455681


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## nomi007

Saw it on PTV News in basic colours of previous operator Polet Flight. The aircraft is sporting Anguilla registration VP-BPL with PAF serial number probably J-029 and Pakistan flag on vertical stabiliser.

The aircraft is in passenger configuration and flew from PAF Base Nur Khan, Chaklala, to PAF Mushaf, Sargodha, with Chief of Air Staff of PAF Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman in PTV News programme.





Departure from PAF Base Nur Khan, Chaklala.





Departure from PAF Base Nur Khan, Chaklala.





Aircraft cabin.





Aircraft cabin.





Arrival at PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha.





Arrival at PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha.





Arrival at PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha.

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## khanasifm

Was not j019 the non awacs Saab 2k in paf ? Is this the new acquisition ??


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## khanasifm

https://m.planespotters.net/airline/Pakistan-Air-Force


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## Safriz

Why PAF has bought this new SAAB 2000?
It only costs 700 USD per hour to fly, parts and fuel included and very cheap to buy second hand but why PAF has bought it?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Likely something coming down the pipeline


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## khail007

Either will be used as VIP duties OR may be PAF will use its expertise in repairing damaged aircrafts to convert this one to AWACS configuration with some customization in mind. Who knows?


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## fatman17

Cornered Tiger said:


> Sir ACM Sohail Aman in his recent interview has said that PAF has repaired the both the damaged Erieyes locally. So we can assume that PAF has deployed all of the four again. Plus PAF has also taken the delivery of another Saab-2000 in 2016, Dont know what role it will assume.


Crew training

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## fatman17

The Pakistan Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, told AFM in late April that the air arm is set to receive three new Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. The first will be delivered in December and the remaining pair will arrive next year.

They will boost the PAF’s AEW&C fleet, which is currently made up of three Erieyes serving 3 Squadron and four ZDK-03s with 4 Squadron.

Saab issued a press release on May 15 announcing that it had signed an AEW&C contract worth SEK 1.35bn (£120m), with deliveries being made from 2017 until 2020. It will not disclose the customer, as is its usual policy, but it is likely this is the same deal.

Two of the PAF’s existing Erieyes were seriously damaged in a terrorist attack on PAF Base Minhas in August 2012, but have now been returned to service. Both were rebuilt by PAF personnel at PAC Kamra with support from Saab – the last aircraft returned to service in 2016.

The PAF ordered four Erieyes in 2005, and these were delivered during 2009-11. Under Project Vision, initiated in 2000, the PAF has built up its own indigenous C4I system couple with surveillance systems and surface-to-air weapons. Information datalinked from both the ZDK-03 and Erieye is merged at the PAF’s Air Defence HQ at Chaklala, to provide the PAF with a single recognised air picture. Alan Warnes

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## Hell hound

fatman17 said:


> Two of the PAF’s existing Erieyes were seriously damaged in a terrorist attack on PAF Base Minhas in August 2012, but have now been returned to service. Both were rebuilt by PAF personnel at PAC Kamra with support from Saab – the last aircraft returned to service in 2016.


so there was no write off


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 398011
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, told AFM in late April that the air arm is set to receive three new Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. The first will be delivered in December and the remaining pair will arrive next year.
> 
> They will boost the PAF’s AEW&C fleet, which is currently made up of three Erieyes serving 3 Squadron and four ZDK-03s with 4 Squadron.
> 
> Saab issued a press release on May 15 announcing that it had signed an AEW&C contract worth SEK 1.35bn (£120m), with deliveries being made from 2017 until 2020. It will not disclose the customer, as is its usual policy, but it is likely this is the same deal.
> 
> Two of the PAF’s existing Erieyes were seriously damaged in a terrorist attack on PAF Base Minhas in August 2012, but have now been returned to service. Both were rebuilt by PAF personnel at PAC Kamra with support from Saab – the last aircraft returned to service in 2016.
> 
> The PAF ordered four Erieyes in 2005, and these were delivered during 2009-11. Under Project Vision, initiated in 2000, the PAF has built up its own indigenous C4I system couple with surveillance systems and surface-to-air weapons. Information datalinked from both the ZDK-03 and Erieye is merged at the PAF’s Air Defence HQ at Chaklala, to provide the PAF with a single recognised air picture. Alan Warnes



Can any one confirm that both damaged AWACS were rebuilt and repaired. Because members here know about one being repaired and if this is true than after coming of three new AWACS Pakistani AWACS will be 11 in total. @Windjammer @Oscar


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## Super Falcon

I think pakistan should have bought a bigger version of Chinese AWACS

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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> I think pakistan should have bought a bigger version of Chinese AWACS


Well first question whether PAF is happy with current Chinese AWACs it has or not ?


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## 帅的一匹

Zarvan said:


> Well first question whether PAF is happy with current Chinese AWACs it has or not ?


Don't ever try to first blame everything on Chinese quality.

I don't like it.

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## Awan68

wanglaokan said:


> Don't ever try to first blame everything on Chinese quality.
> 
> I don't like it.


@Zarvan , hazrat stop pissing our chinese friends off


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## 帅的一匹

Awan68 said:


> @Zarvan , hazrat stop pissing our chinese friends off


It's like I have a Mercedez Benz and I want a buy a BMW. Does it mean that I don't feel satisfied with the Mercedez Benz I have?@Zarvan learn how to respect


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## Awan68

wanglaokan said:


> It's like I have a Mercedez Benz and I want a buy a BMW. Does it mean that I don't feel satisfied with the Mercedez Benz I have?@Zarvan learn how to respect


Chinese have caught up with the west in almost all the sophisticated techs, if they lag behind in some than im sure in a decade they will be ahead of even the west in many domains, dont take @Zarvan posts the wrong way, he is in absolute mad love with euro weapons, not his fault..


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Well first question whether PAF is happy with current Chinese AWACs it has or not ?


It has a long range radar than erieye but ESM and ECM is worst than ever as @ars


Zarvan said:


> Well first question whether PAF is happy with current Chinese AWACs it has or not ?


They are not satisfied with ESM, ECM on ZDK-3


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## 帅的一匹

I think ZDK03 also have the data link compatible with F16 and Mirage. The price is double of the Erieyes. This thread is about PAF inducting Erieye, Zarvan you don't need to justify every PAF's procurement by insinuating Chinese weapon is inferior.



pakistanipower said:


> It has a long range radar than erieye but ESM and ECM is worst than ever as @ars
> 
> They are not satisfied with ESM, ECM on ZDK-3


Sir, seems that you have operated ZDK03 for a long time?

ZDK03 doesn't present the best AWACS tech of China, since it's bought back in year 2008/9. Don't say Erieye is better than KJ500, it only make me laugh.

Don't put it like apple or orange every time, can we have some overall consideration?


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Well first question whether PAF is happy with current Chinese AWACs it has or not ?


PAF not happy with its ECM and ESM



wanglaokan said:


> I think ZDK03 also have the data link compatible with F16 and Mirage. The price is double of the Erieyes. This thread is about PAF inducting Erieye, Zarvan you don't need to justify every PAF's procurement by insinuating Chinese weapon is inferior.
> 
> 
> Sir, seems that you have operated ZDK03 for a long time?
> 
> ZDK03 doesn't present the best AWACS tech of China, since it's bought back in year 2008/9. Don't say Erieye is better than KJ500, it only make me laugh.
> 
> Don't put it like apple or orange every time, can we have some overall consideration?


We don't know the capabilities of KJ-500 so comparison is not possible, I am not trying to insult Chinese products but rather than stated the fact from PAF qoutes by @Arsalan and @Dazzler, pardon me if you hurt


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## Dazzler

pakistanipower said:


> PAF not happy with its ECM and ESM
> 
> 
> We don't know the capabilities of KJ-500 so comparison is not possible, I am not trying to insult Chinese products but rather than stated the fact from PAF qoutes by @Arsalan and @Dazzler, pardon me if you hurt



ZDK-03 is quite a capable package with a robust radar especially over the sea. It has more search and detection ranges than Erieye, and has been poven service friendly. Now if you get four of these for just $278 million, count your lucky stars. Comparing it with Erieye is a no brainer, Sweden has been churning AWACS's for decades and was among the first to develop an aesa based system. Even Americans couldn't do that with their sentries.

Again, for the price you paid to China, ZDKs are a great deal.

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Can any one confirm that both damaged AWACS were rebuilt and repaired. Because members here know about one being repaired and if this is true than after coming of three new AWACS Pakistani AWACS will be 11 in total. @Windjammer @Oscar


The article clearly states that. What further confirmation you want.

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## fatman17

Hell hound said:


> so there was no write off


Nope, not according to Alan warnes, who is a PAF insider.

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## 帅的一匹

Dazzler said:


> ZDK-03 is quite a capable package with a robust radar especially over the sea. It has more search and detection ranges than Erieye, and has been poven service friendly. Now if you get four of these for just $178 million, count your lucky stars. Comparing it with Erieye is a no brainer, Sweden has been churning AWACS's for decades and was among the first to develop an aesa based system. Even Americans couldn't do that with their sentries.
> 
> Again, for the price you paid to China, ZDKs are a great deal.


Seems PAF will operate 10 AWACS in the future, it's a great news! That's hell lot of AWACS there.



Awan68 said:


> Chinese have caught up with the west in almost all the sophisticated techs, if they lag behind in some than im sure in a decade they will be ahead of even the west in many domains, dont take @Zarvan posts the wrong way, he is in absolute mad love with euro weapons, not his fault..


Yeh, he is a big fan of western platform. So as PLAAF. PLAAF want to combine the merits of USA platform with Soviet ones. ZDK03 definitely get bang for the bucks of PAF paid.

I will call it a brotherhood offer.

I think ZDK03 will replace with new DESA same on the KJ500?

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## MastanKhan

wanglaokan said:


> Seems PAF will operate 10 AWACS in the future, it's a great news! That's hell lot of AWACS there.



Hi,

That is indeed a lots of awacs---. What I think is that the Paf is trying to cover all aspect of attacks with an early warning platform.

As early warning platform are cheaper than fighter sqdrn over all---which man---one awac can look a large area and can warn the base in a timely manner for an coming attack.

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## 帅的一匹

pakistanipower said:


> PAF not happy with its ECM and ESM
> 
> 
> We don't know the capabilities of KJ-500 so comparison is not possible, I am not trying to insult Chinese products but rather than stated the fact from PAF qoutes by @Arsalan and @Dazzler, pardon me if you hurt


KJ500's DESA has 470KM detection range with 360 degree coverage, can track 100 targets at the same time. I say not bad.

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## Thorough Pro

He didn't say anything about quality, rather Chinese systems meeting our requirements.



wanglaokan said:


> Don't ever try to first blame everything on Chinese quality.
> 
> I don't like it.


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## 帅的一匹

The type 6c turbo prop engine of KJ500 AWACS produce 5100 HP more than 4000 HP of Type 6 prop engine on ZDK03. And the platform of KJ500 is Y9, while the platform of ZDK03 is Y8. I say ZDK03 is cost effective and capable of fulfilling the needs of PAF. If in the future PAF can induct some KJ500, it could be even better. It's only my 2 cents.



Thorough Pro said:


> He didn't say anything about quality, rather Chinese systems meeting our requirements.


Dazzler said ZDK03 can fulfill the requirement of PAF.

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## Thorough Pro

Instead of keeping 20/30 fighters in the air waiting for the intruders, its a lot better/cheaper/efficient to keep the AWACS in the air monitoring enemy movement and providing timely warning/guidance to the AD platforms for a direct and efficient interception. 



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is indeed a lots of awacs---. What I think is that the Paf is trying to cover all aspect of attacks with an early warning platform.
> 
> As early warning platform are cheaper than fighter sqdrn over all---which man---one awac can look a large area and can warn the base in a timely manner for an coming attack.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is indeed a lots of awacs---. What I think is that the Paf is trying to cover all aspect of attacks with an early warning platform.
> 
> As early warning platform are cheaper than fighter sqdrn over all---which man---one awac can look a large area and can warn the base in a timely manner for an coming attack.


This might have been the original plan. Think back to 2005-2006 when the PAF sought 6 Erieye and the PN wanted 3 P-3B-based Hawkeye 2000 (link). It's possible that the ZDK03s are being assigned for maritime support missions (in place of the Hawkeye 2000) and the PAF is building its mainland AEW&C force with the Erieye.

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## 帅的一匹

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is indeed a lots of awacs---. What I think is that the Paf is trying to cover all aspect of attacks with an early warning platform.
> 
> As early warning platform are cheaper than fighter sqdrn over all---which man---one awac can look a large area and can warn the base in a timely manner for an coming attack.


It's a perfect strategy. Since IAF only know pile stack the fighter jets, PAF sure has superior tactics to deal with it.

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## Thorough Pro

May be he knows what I don't.



wanglaokan said:


> Dazzler said ZDK03 can fulfill the requirement of PAF.


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## 帅的一匹

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This might have been the original plan. Think back to 2005-2006 when the PAF sought 6 Erieye and the PN wanted 3 P-3B-based Hawkeye 2000 (link). It's possible that the ZDK03s are being assigned for maritime support missions (in place of the Hawkeye 2000) and the PAF is building its mainland AEW&C force with the Erieye.


@Dazzler Is the ZDK03 supposed to deal with Maritime support mission only? I don't think so.



Thorough Pro said:


> May be he knows what I don't.


Seems he is quite informed by the insider.


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## Mrc

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is indeed a lots of awacs---. What I think is that the Paf is trying to cover all aspect of attacks with an early warning platform.
> 
> As early warning platform are cheaper than fighter sqdrn over all---which man---one awac can look a large area and can warn the base in a timely manner for an coming attack.




These aircraft are needed to aquire targets for 500 + km cruise missiles which can strike moving targets at sea....

Thats why they were also targeted at kamra in the first place

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## 帅的一匹

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This might have been the original plan. Think back to 2005-2006 when the PAF sought 6 Erieye and the PN wanted 3 P-3B-based Hawkeye 2000 (link). It's possible that the ZDK03s are being assigned for maritime support missions (in place of the Hawkeye 2000) and the PAF is building its mainland AEW&C force with the Erieye.


P3b is very good, but super expensive.


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## MastanKhan

wanglaokan said:


> Don't ever try to first blame everything on Chinese quality.
> 
> I don't like it.




Hi,

If the air chief stated that---it was not very intelligent of him---rather stupid---. I would never down play a weapons system that I am using and my trusted friend is using---.

I would rather use a different terminology than down play the product---.

I mean to say---how stupid does the air chief of pakistan air force has to be to make such a statement---if he made that statement---or the person who made that statement---.

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## 帅的一匹

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If the air chief stated that---it was not very intelligent of him---rather stupid---. I would never down play a weapons system that I am using and my trusted friend is using---.
> 
> I would rather use a different terminology than down play the product---.
> 
> I mean to say---how stupid does the air chief of pakistan air force has to be to make such a statement---if he made that statement---or the person who made that statement---.


ZDK03 is good, and offered at sharply discount price for PAF. It's a strong passion for brotherhood, sometimes it may feel sting a little bit of gratuitous comment.

It's ok.

I'm very happy PAF inducting new AWACS.

PAF can update ZDK03 to Kj500 standard, it has very strong ESM capabity( installed at its side fuselage and radome).

And replace a more powerful turbo prop engine.

Although me and Zarvan perceive things differently, but we all desire to bring out the best for PAF. Hope he can understand.

China is Pakistan's best buddy, trust is very important.

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## Zarvan

If all 4 SAAB and 4 Chinese AWAC are operational than addition of 3 more takes the number to 11 that is massive number specially a country like Pakistan

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## 帅的一匹

@Zarvan 



Zarvan said:


> If all 4 SAAB and 4 Chinese AWAC are operational than addition of 3 more takes the number to 11 that is massive number specially a country like Pakistan


The Supa Powa neighbour live in the east may get his pants wet now.

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## Dazzler

Thorough Pro said:


> May be he knows what I don't.



It took CETC (38the institute) almost four years to meet PAF specifications for an AWACS platform. The original platform lacked several features. The upgraded one has wingtip ESM fairings, faster rotating dome, more powerful ESA radar thanks to more powerful six blade WJ-6 turboprop engines, more targets being scanned and tracked, and has been upgraded with RTDL and link-17.

Regarding the ECM and ESM performance, it delivers the goods..


Do you see any unsatisfied faces here? I see many intrigued ones.

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## syed_yusuf

3 of the 2 are from Saudi stock and one will be new so my estimate is that PAF will have 10 aewcs by end of next year

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## 帅的一匹

Dazzler said:


> It took CETC (38the institute) almost four years to meet PAF specifications for an AWACS platform. The original platform lacked several features. The upgraded one has wingtip ESM fairings, faster rotating dome, more powerful ESA radar thanks to more powerful six blade WJ-6 turboprop engines, more targets being scanned and tracked, and has been upgraded with RTDL and link-17.
> 
> Regarding the ECM and ESM performance, it delivers the goods..
> 
> 
> Do you see any unsatisfied faces here? I see many intrigued ones.


Who is the General in the picture?


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## TaimiKhan

wanglaokan said:


> Who is the General in the picture?


One is the naval chief the white beard and other airforce chief

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## 帅的一匹

TaimiKhan said:


> One is the naval chief the white beard and other airforce chief


I like his beard, looks sharp.

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## Mrc

Mrc said:


> These aircraft are needed to aquire targets for 500 + km cruise missiles which can strike moving targets at sea....
> 
> Thats why they were also targeted at kamra in the first place



Reply to this



Zarvan said:


> If all 4 SAAB and 4 Chinese AWAC are operational than addition of 3 more takes the number to 11 that is massive number specially a country like Pakistan

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## dilpakistani

it is extremely stupid to bring about comparison with Chinese Awacs and Erieye. Erieye are brought to augment our F-16 fleet which have link-16 capabilities. With these additional Erieyes we will never need our F-16 to do CAPs mission and their direct integration means we don't need additional arrangements to get them into service. Chinese awacs are every bit as good as Eireyes and they have their specific task in PAF inventory. They will primarily be used with JF-17s datalink. After Saab we will definitely have to revise our order of ZDks too... as we are adding more n more squadrons of Jf-17s. Two systems have no comparison and have their own specific purpose.

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## 帅的一匹

dilpakistani said:


> it is extremely stupid to bring about comparison with Chinese Awacs and Erieye. Erieye are brought to augment our F-16 fleet which have link-16 capabilities. With these additional Erieyes we will never need our F-16 to do CAPs mission and their direct integration means we don't need additional arrangements to get them into service. Chinese awacs are every bit as good as Eireyes and they have their specific task in PAF inventory. They will primarily be used with JF-17s datalink. After Saab we will definitely have to revise our order of ZDks too... as we are adding more n more squadrons of Jf-17s. Two systems have no comparison and have their own specific purpose.


DAZZLER said ZKD03 had been updated with RTDL and Link17.

Which means it can lead F16 as well.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This might have been the original plan. Think back to 2005-2006 when the PAF sought 6 Erieye and the PN wanted 3 P-3B-based Hawkeye 2000 (link). It's possible that the ZDK03s are being assigned for maritime support missions (in place of the Hawkeye 2000) and the PAF is building its mainland AEW&C force with the Erieye.


Plans are made for ten to fifteen years so you may be pretty close to what the actual deal is. 

Link-17 needs a ground station to work with link-16.

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## TaimiKhan

wanglaokan said:


> DAZZLER said ZKD03 had been updated with RTDL and Link17.
> 
> Which means it can lead F16 as well.


I believe the link 17 is an inhouse solution, f16s use the link 16 standard. So voice communication can be done but may be data transfer not possible. 

But then again u never know what has PAF in store.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> Plans are made for ten to fifteen years so you may be pretty close to what the actual deal is.
> 
> Link-17 needs a ground station to work with link-16.


Yep. I don't mean to say that only the ZDK03s will be there for maritime support. In fact, No. 5 (Block-52+) is in Southern Air Command and there have been Facebook clips of those pilots wearing life-support vests. So there will be Erieye AEW&C to help the SAC F-16s and JF-17s.

However, I think the ZDK03 will work in close unison with the PN's assets, as was originally intended with the Hawkeye 2000. But the Hawkeye 2000 was intended for a time when the PN wanted 6 OHPs, Type 214s and Harpoon-armed aviation and fast-attack assets. 

Today, the ZDK03 makes more sense considering how many Chinese systems and weapons the PN is intended (and if not Chinese, then 'local' stuff that Pakistan won't be allowed to mate with U.S. hardware or systems).

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## Khanate

TaimiKhan said:


> But then again u never know what has PAF in store.




Few rules apply during wartime.

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## 帅的一匹

TaimiKhan said:


> I believe the link 17 is an inhouse solution, f16s use the link 16 standard. So voice communication can be done but may be data transfer not possible.
> 
> But then again u never know what has PAF in store.


Somehow that China may have acquired Link 16 in the 1980s from USA. China was planning to buy squadrons of F16 from USA at that time. The procurement get canceled due to USA insist on overweighted j79 engine rather than F100. And we are dirt poor back then, can't afford it.


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. I don't mean to say that only the ZDK03s will be there for maritime support. In fact, No. 5 (Block-52+) is in Southern Air Command and there have been Facebook clips of those pilots wearing life-support vests. So there will be Erieye AEW&C to help the SAC F-16s and JF-17s.
> 
> However, I think the ZDK03 will work in close unison with the PN's assets, as was originally intended with the Hawkeye 2000. But the Hawkeye 2000 was intended for a time when the PN wanted 6 OHPs, Type 214s and Harpoon-armed aviation and fast-attack assets.
> 
> Today, the ZDK03 makes more sense considering how many Chinese systems and weapons the PN is intended (and if not Chinese, then 'local' stuff that Pakistan won't be allowed to mate with U.S. hardware or systems).


The ZDK is now very much a part of the Navy's war plans. 

The 8 F-16s in limbo might be supposed to beef up 5sq so that in wartime it can operate in two detachments of equal strength

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## fatman17

Oscar said:


> The ZDK is now very much a part of the Navy's war plans.
> 
> The 8 F-16s in limbo might be supposed to beef up 5sq so that in wartime it can operate in two detachments of equal strength


There is no limbo, the contract is cancelled.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> The ZDK is now very much a part of the Navy's war plans.
> 
> The 8 F-16s in limbo might be supposed to beef up 5sq so that in wartime it can operate in two detachments of equal strength





fatman17 said:


> There is no limbo, the contract is cancelled.


In his last interview with PTV the CAS basically said efforts are still in place to secure those 8 F-16s "and more." Basically, it seems the PAF still actively wants 18 Block-52+.

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## fatman17

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In his last interview with PTV the CAS basically said efforts are still in place to secure those 8 F-16s "and more." Basically, it seems the PAF still actively wants 18 Block-52+.


Yes, but it has to come up with the cash. no FMF anymore.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> Yes, but it has to come up with the cash. no FMF anymore.


Yep Pakistan would have to pay for it.

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## Dazzler

wanglaokan said:


> DAZZLER said ZKD03 had been updated with RTDL and Link17.
> 
> Which means it can lead F16 as well.



Yes it is, since late 2015 at least, look here, both RTDL and Link-17 are very much a vital component of PAF's C4I now.

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## Zarvan

By the way How much of these AWACS provide help to Air Defence systems ???

@Oscar @Dazzler

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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> By the way How much of these AWACS provide help to Air Defence systems ???
> 
> @Oscar @Dazzler



See the RTDL screen, the one in the bottom center, notice the red circles, can you guess what are they?

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## Thorough Pro

That's a tough question to answer not knowing what else they have or have not seen in life, it's all about perspective, that comes from knowledge and exposure.



Dazzler said:


> Do you see any unsatisfied faces here? I see many intrigued ones.

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## Readerdefence

Dazzler said:


> See the RTDL screen, the one in the bottom center, notice the red circles, can you guess what are they?
> 
> View attachment 398434


May be SAM coverage ?

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## Dazzler

Thorough Pro said:


> That's a tough question to answer not knowing what else they have or have not seen in life, it's all about perspective, that comes from knowledge and exposure.



It was in the context of the picture, not their lives!

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## Thorough Pro

I too meant their professional lives, not personal.



Dazzler said:


> It was in the context of the picture, not their lives!

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## Hammad ur Rehman

If currently all 4 Eryes are fully operational then after the addition of these 3 new ones PAF will have enough eyes in the air to cover from North to Central areas upto Punjab-Sindh border. The ZDKs will be operated over the seas which means that there is a gap from Bahawalpur to Bholari for which another 3-4 AWACS are needed & preferably to be stationed at Quetta (far away from Indian borders & their SSMs).


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## khanasifm

Hammad ur Rehman said:


> If currently all 4 Eryes are fully operational then after the addition of these 3 new ones PAF will have enough eyes in the air to cover from North to Central areas upto Punjab-Sindh border. The ZDKs will be operated over the seas which means that there is a gap from Bahawalpur to Bholari for which another 3-4 AWACS are needed & preferably to be stationed at Quetta (far away from Indian borders & their SSMs).



The air range is not the same as mile/km distance on the ground 300 air miles not the same on ground between two points so single aircraft can cover more Han half of the country like Pak

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## syed_yusuf

to a simple math a singe quality AWACS can cover 120K sq miles. that mean PAF need 3 in the air to cover Pakistan land mass and 1 on the sea to cover sea area. that mean paf needs 12 to maintain 24 coverage assuming each flight is for 10 hours and some maintenance i between. so having 10 or 11 sounds like PAF wanted to have 24 x 7 coverage in time of need over its responsibility areas.

I hope and wish that these new 3 are global eye instead of erieye.

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## Dazzler

Flight Global has disclosed that Pakistan is the undisclosed customer cited by Saab in a press release on May 15 for a airborne early warning & control contract.

The country will be getting three more Saab 2000 turboprops equipped with Erieye radars in the $155 million deal.

http://alert5.com/2017/06/02/pakistan-getting-three-more-saab-2000-aew-aircraft/

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## Tank131

If im not mistaken, PAF had bought 3 Saab 2000 last year or the year before and we thought it was for spares and other uses... Guess it was for more awe&cs. It will bring tue total number of AEW&Cs to 10-11? Thats an aweful lot for a country the size of Pakistan... Only US, China and Russia operate more AEW&Cs. My suspicion is that the ZDK-3 will be given to the navy (as they can talk to JF-17 and Mirages but the Erieye will be kept for the Airforce as they speak to all the fighters on Link 16 and Link 17. From what i understand the ZDK still doesn't talk to the F-16s.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> If im not mistaken, PAF had bought 3 Saab 2000 last year or the year before and we thought it was for spares and other uses... Guess it was for more awe&cs. It will bring tue total number of AEW&Cs to 10-11? Thats an aweful lot for a country the size of Pakistan... Only US, China and Russia operate more AEW&Cs. My suspicion is that the ZDK-3 will be given to the navy (as they can talk to JF-17 and Mirages but the Erieye will be kept for the Airforce as they speak to all the fighters on Link 16 and Link 17. From what i understand the ZDK still doesn't talk to the F-16s.


The PAF bought one Saab 2000 in 2016.

It's on this thread, but I had stated that this new Erieye purchase might be in line with the original AEW&C plan. In the mid-2000s the PAF sought 6 Erieye while the PN wanted 3 P-3B-based Hawkeye 2000s. That was 9 planes. It is possible that they're simply working towards the original plan now, albeit on the Erieye front.

I doubt the ZDK03 will be given to the Navy. Rather, I think the ZDK03 - while still under the PAF - will work very closely with the PN. However, I also believe there'll be an Erieye presence along the maritime sphere since Southern Air Command has the F-16 Block-52+ (and the PN's P-3Cs probably communicate via Link-16 too).

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## Readerdefence

Tank131 said:


> If im not mistaken, PAF had bought 3 Saab 2000 last year or the year before and we thought it was for spares and other uses... Guess it was for more awe&cs. It will bring tue total number of AEW&Cs to 10-11? Thats an aweful lot for a country the size of Pakistan... Only US, China and Russia operate more AEW&Cs. My suspicion is that the ZDK-3 will be given to the navy (as they can talk to JF-17 and Mirages but the Erieye will be kept for the Airforce as they speak to all the fighters on Link 16 and Link 17. From what i understand the ZDK still doesn't talk to the F-16s.


Isn't it we already have enough Saab for f16 and enough zdk for navy ?
Or paf want to airborne for 24 hours may be quite a lot for a country like Pakistan 
Thx for some more input and perhaps detailed one


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## khanasifm

Ok paf is not buying Saab awacs just to keep f16 aware of its surrounding does not make sense one way or the other Saab can or is linked with everything ships or aircraft ground etc


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## grey boy 2

ZDK-3

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## Cool_Soldier

Cool Development.Addition of more AWACS will definitely enhance our capabilities in defending Air space.

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## DJ_Viper

Tank131 said:


> If im not mistaken, PAF had bought 3 Saab 2000 last year or the year before and we thought it was for spares and other uses... Guess it was for more awe&cs. It will bring tue total number of AEW&Cs to 10-11? Thats an aweful lot for a country the size of Pakistan... Only US, China and Russia operate more AEW&Cs. My suspicion is that the ZDK-3 will be given to the navy (as they can talk to JF-17 and Mirages but the Erieye will be kept for the Airforce as they speak to all the fighters on Link 16 and Link 17. From what i understand the ZDK still doesn't talk to the F-16s.




Actually 10-11 isn't that big of a number for a country like Pakistan. These doctrines and purchases depend on the threat perception. You have a massive air-force to counter and protect your country from. So you do need proactive measures. The thought process behind the PAF leadership is that with growing Israeli influence inside the Indian military, and the Israelis having used pretty much all American systems (TPS radars), what if they can jam them? So the numbers of AEW aircraft are increasing to hedge against that. In an event like that, the entire war will have to depend on the AEWC platforms so it'll be fought from the air. Its very difficult to jam an AESA radar, especially a moving one that every few seconds can change the direction of its beams altogether and is mounted on a fast flying platform.

Next, to provide 24*7 coverage, Pakistan needs 3 AEW aircraft (to cover the land mass). So 10 hour duration plus future refueling, you'd need 6 to patrol 24*7. Its safe to assume that two are additional for maintenance support and attrition loss during a conflict (projected loss to ensure 24*7 coverage).

Then, you'll have the ZDK for naval role, with some overlapping area between ZDK's and the Erieye's around the port cities / end of land-mass. Which would still be enough for the Erieyes to get data from P3C's and other Western platforms and route them a 100 mile or so for ocean based operation from Erieye's LOP (last operational point or boundary, which would be the end of Karachi). This way, the Erieye's range being 350-400 KM still directs the P3C's and F-16's vector towards potential adversaries. The ZDK's can be used for maritime surveillance (PN ships, tracking IN ships and jets from a huge distance), as well as providing an expanded coverage platform to look deep inside India, both from around the physical borders, as well as from the Ocean front, leading the Mirages and the JFT's naval support squadrons. 

It seems as this is the game plan and which is why more ZDK's weren't ordered as they would be maintaining a rather smaller ocean based area 300KM from the coastline of Pakistan. 1 ZDK covers it, you have three, 1 for backup / maintenance coverage and the third for attrition if any takes place.

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## volatile

IMO we will be ordering more ZDK as well in coming years since the performance per price is very good


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## DJ_Viper

volatile said:


> IMO we will be ordering more ZDK as well in coming years since the performance per price is very good



I am saying this again and again, this is a great opportunity for Pakistan. You shouldn't buy more, you should get more with TOT / limited TOT and assemble them internally. That way, you are building a labor base to expand into AESA R&D and advance Radar manufacturing yourself. Saving billions in the future and building your own industry for these advance high priced items. Just like you did with the JFT.

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## khanasifm

DJ_Viper said:


> Actually 10-11 isn't that big of a number for a country like Pakistan. These doctrines and purchases depend on the threat perception. You have a massive air-force to counter and protect your country from. So you do need proactive measures. The thought process behind the PAF leadership is that with growing Israeli influence inside the Indian military, and the Israelis having used pretty much all American systems (TPS radars), what if they can jam them? So the numbers of AEW aircraft are increasing to hedge against that. In an event like that, the entire war will have to depend on the AEWC platforms so it'll be fought from the air. Its very difficult to jam an AESA radar, especially a moving one that every few seconds can change the direction of its beams altogether and is mounted on a fast flying platform.
> 
> Next, to provide 24*7 coverage, Pakistan needs 3 AEW aircraft (to cover the land mass). So 10 hour duration plus future refueling, you'd need 6 to patrol 24*7. Its safe to assume that two are additional for maintenance support and attrition loss during a conflict (projected loss to ensure 24*7 coverage).
> 
> Then, you'll have the ZDK for naval role, with some overlapping area between ZDK's and the Erieye's around the port cities / end of land-mass. Which would still be enough for the Erieyes to get data from P3C's and other Western platforms and route them a 100 mile or so for ocean based operation from Erieye's LOP (last operational point or boundary, which would be the end of Karachi). This way, the Erieye's range being 350-400 KM still directs the P3C's and F-16's vector towards potential adversaries. The ZDK's can be used for maritime surveillance (PN ships, tracking IN ships and jets from a huge distance), as well as providing an expanded coverage platform to look deep inside India, both from around the physical borders, as well as from the Ocean front, leading the Mirages and the JFT's naval support squadrons.
> 
> It seems as this is the game plan and which is why more ZDK's weren't ordered as they would be maintaining a rather smaller ocean based area 300KM from the coastline of Pakistan. 1 ZDK covers it, you have three, 1 for backup / maintenance coverage and the third for attrition if any takes place.



There is a picture of Saab from IDEAS 201x which shows the coverage it's cover pretty much whole south plus sea

Assuming k3 same range than one Ac at a station cover whole Sindh plus Baluchistan only pointy part of Baluchistan is not Int he circle plus about 100 200 miles inside Easter border

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## volatile

DJ_Viper said:


> I am saying this again and again, this is a great opportunity for Pakistan. You shouldn't buy more, you should get more with TOT / limited TOT and assemble them internally. That way, you are building a labor base to expand into AESA R&D and advance Radar manufacturing yourself. Saving billions in the future and building your own industry for these advance high priced items. Just like you did with the JFT.


You are correct we do have talent but industrial base is very weak ,for talent 
*Local university develops Pakistan's first Phased Array Radar*
https://www.dawn.com/news/1323372

*For industrial base to be developed the private partnership is necessary as some right steps are taken in shape of *

*http://quwa.org/2016/11/13/pakistan-aeronautical-complex-open-to-private-sector-engagement/*

For interim period we were denied critical technologies in the past and we need these birds as quickly to fill the gap of quality .

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## DJ_Viper

volatile said:


> You are correct we do have talent but industrial base is very weak ,for talent
> *Local university develops Pakistan's first Phased Array Radar*
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1323372
> 
> *For industrial base to be developed the private partnership is necessary as some right steps are taken in shape of *
> 
> *http://quwa.org/2016/11/13/pakistan-aeronautical-complex-open-to-private-sector-engagement/*
> 
> For interim period we were denied critical technologies in the past and we need these birds as quickly to fill the gap of quality .



Education, training and exposure to serious, advance tech is the most critical thing. As you embark on this journey, the infrastructure can be built. It'd take 2-3 years to setup proper base. But it's not impossible at all as the educated labor is the main issue. You have lots of that. The JFT program has proved a scenario not too different from the topic to become fruitful.



khanasifm said:


> There is a picture of Saab from IDEAS 201x which shows the coverage it's cover pretty much whole south plus sea
> 
> Assuming k3 same range than one Ac at a station cover whole Sindh plus Baluchistan only pointy part of Baluchistan is not Int he circle plus about 100 200 miles inside Easter border



Yes, you got the idea I was trying to explain


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## nomi007




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## Hassan Guy

Guys, when I come to think of it my super mushshak mini AWACS is a brilliant idea
You take this very nice super mushshak, give it the damn 380hp engine instead of the current 260.





Take a look at this E-801M Oko early warning radar underneath this KA-31, take it(or a better equivalent) and install it ontop the damn mushshak.




Overhaul the 3rd seat in the back and the cockpit with them fancy gadgets, now all we need is a pilot and the other 2 guys can take up the work of the Radar Officer and Combat Information Center Officer.




No need for a copilot and aircraft control office like you have in the hawkeye, this is a mushshak dammit.

.....my genius has reached incomprehensible heights

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## Safriz

Hassan Guy said:


> Guys, when I come to think of it my super mushshak mini AWACS is a brilliant idea
> You take this very nice super mushshak, give it the damn 380hp engine instead of the current 260.
> View attachment 411926
> 
> Take a look at this E-801M Oko early warning radar underneath this KA-31, take it(or a better equivalent) and install it ontop the damn mushshak.
> View attachment 411927
> 
> Overhaul the 3rd seat in the back and the cockpit with them fancy gadgets, now all we need is a pilot and the other 2 guys can take up the work of the Radar Officer and Combat Information Center Officer.
> View attachment 411928
> 
> No need for a copilot and aircraft control office like you have in the hawkeye, this is a mushshak dammit.
> 
> .....my genius has reached incomprehensible heights


Falco or some other UAV will be a better choice for this.

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## Shahzaz ud din

Zarvan said:


> Well first question whether PAF is happy with current Chinese AWACs it has or not ?


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## Bossman

Hassan Guy said:


> Guys, when I come to think of it my super mushshak mini AWACS is a brilliant idea
> You take this very nice super mushshak, give it the damn 380hp engine instead of the current 260.
> View attachment 411926
> 
> Take a look at this E-801M Oko early warning radar underneath this KA-31, take it(or a better equivalent) and install it ontop the damn mushshak.
> View attachment 411927
> 
> Overhaul the 3rd seat in the back and the cockpit with them fancy gadgets, now all we need is a pilot and the other 2 guys can take up the work of the Radar Officer and Combat Information Center Officer.
> View attachment 411928
> 
> No need for a copilot and aircraft control office like you have in the hawkeye, this is a mushshak dammit.
> 
> .....my genius has reached incomprehensible heights



In fact you have just proven yourself as an idiot.

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## Ahmet Pasha

U could mount a mm wave radar on a drone!?


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## MastanKhan

Hassan Guy said:


> Guys, when I come to think of it my super mushshak mini AWACS is a brilliant idea
> You take this very nice super mushshak, give it the damn 380hp engine instead of the current 260.
> View attachment 411926
> 
> Take a look at this E-801M Oko early warning radar underneath this KA-31, take it(or a better equivalent) and install it ontop the damn mushshak.
> View attachment 411927
> 
> Overhaul the 3rd seat in the back and the cockpit with them fancy gadgets, now all we need is a pilot and the other 2 guys can take up the work of the Radar Officer and Combat Information Center Officer.
> View attachment 411928
> 
> No need for a copilot and aircraft control office like you have in the hawkeye, this is a mushshak dammit.
> 
> .....my genius has reached incomprehensible heights




Hi,

It has been done a while ago---not on a small aircraft like the super mashhak---but more like a small twin engine aircraft---. And don't worry about that fool---he is all pi-ss and vinegar---.

Here is an example

http://pannonair.blogspot.com/2013_08_01_archive.html

A few years ago I saw a youtube video on a small twin engine aircraft for british navy---with surveillance equipment in the nose of the aircraft.

Here is a picture of one






https://www.google.com/search?q=bri...hVE82MKHcKuBz8Q9C8IHw&biw=907&bih=409&dpr=1.5

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Asalam o alaikum every one!

1 I want to ask that is jf17 can communicate only with chinese origin awacs or it can also exchange data with swedish saab ???

2 which else paf fighter mirrage f7 or f16 can communicate with awacs ???

3 is paf made Link 17 protocol for their own requirement or they use Link 16 any one else ? 
Advance thanks if anyone gives his valueable input


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## Basel

Ahmet Pasha said:


> U could mount a mm wave radar on a drone!?



US is working on similar concept but it's for Navy/Marines.


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## Windjammer

Good underside study of PAF's SAAB Ereye AWACS system.

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## Yerusalem 4880 Kms

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Asalam o alaikum every one!
> 
> 1 I want to ask that is jf17 can communicate only with chinese origin awacs or it can also exchange data with swedish saab ???
> 
> 2 which else paf fighter mirrage f7 or f16 can communicate with awacs ???
> 
> 3 is paf made Link 17 protocol for their own requirement or they use Link 16 any one else ?
> Advance thanks if anyone gives his valueable input


JF-17 can only communicate with Chinese AWACS and we have Chinese AWACS for the same reason,
for F-16 we have SAAB AWACS.

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Amulet said:


> JF-17 can only communicate with Chinese AWACS and we have Chinese AWACS for the same reason,
> for F-16 we have SAAB AWACS.



Thanks for reply , Can u tell why we r going for more new saab awacs when jf17 is our backbone and going to stay for a long time in a large numbers or they have plans to make jf17 communication possible with saab awacs too in future ?


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## Yerusalem 4880 Kms

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Thanks for reply , Can u tell why we r going for more new saab awacs when jf17 is our backbone and going to stay for a long time in a large numbers or they have plans to make jf17 communication possible with saab awacs too in future ?


May be newer blocks of JFT can communicate with Sa'ab AWACS further we have plenty of non-Chinese aircraft and it is possible PAF planing to acquire more F-16.


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## syed_yusuf

I do not agree , what happen to raabta system. Was it not supposed to communicate with both

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## ziaulislam

DJ_Viper said:


> I am saying this again and again, this is a great opportunity for Pakistan. You shouldn't buy more, you should get more with TOT / limited TOT and assemble them internally. That way, you are building a labor base to expand into AESA R&D and advance Radar manufacturing yourself. Saving billions in the future and building your own industry for these advance high priced items. Just like you did with the JFT.


there are other avenues in defense that needs to be covered first, like a tanks, rifles, artillery, ammunition, JV in helicopters basic coverttes, naval vessels etc

i think a good study example is turkey not so different country than us, how they have changed alot in last 20 years


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## khanasifm

Amulet said:


> JF-17 can only communicate with Chinese AWACS and we have Chinese AWACS for the same reason,
> for F-16 we have SAAB AWACS.



Not true why would you add more Saab if it's just Comm with f16 and mirages while mirage will be gone in 5-8 years or so

Read paf history 1999-2014 for details

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## Falcon26

Amulet said:


> JF-17 can only communicate with Chinese AWACS and we have Chinese AWACS for the same reason,
> for F-16 we have SAAB AWACS.


 None sense

JF-17 can communicate with both erieye & Chinese awacs through Link 17

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## Inception-06

Hassan Guy said:


> Guys, when I come to think of it my super mushshak mini AWACS is a brilliant idea
> You take this very nice super mushshak, give it the damn 380hp engine instead of the current 260.
> View attachment 411926
> 
> Take a look at this E-801M Oko early warning radar underneath this KA-31, take it(or a better equivalent) and install it ontop the damn mushshak.
> View attachment 411927
> 
> Overhaul the 3rd seat in the back and the cockpit with them fancy gadgets, now all we need is a pilot and the other 2 guys can take up the work of the Radar Officer and Combat Information Center Officer.
> View attachment 411928
> 
> No need for a copilot and aircraft control office like you have in the hawkeye, this is a mushshak dammit.
> 
> .....my genius has reached incomprehensible heights




I liked your Idea to make a Super Mushak Caravan (something like the transport plane Y-12 Harbin)


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## Imran Khan

so finally last one is active in duty now ? picture claimed saab-2000 serial number 10-049 flying over islamabad

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## Windjammer

So far, 25 , 40 and 45 have been spotted flying recently.

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## Readerdefence

Windjammer said:


> So far, 25 , 40 and 45 have been spotted flying recently.


Hi hi is there any chance that these birds can be armed with ALCM kind of thing? Or a AAM
Thx


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## razgriz19

Imran Khan said:


> so finally last one is active in duty now ? picture claimed saab-2000 serial number 10-049 flying over islamabad


I hope that's true! Getting back the strength of four would be awesome


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## khanasifm

Modp report 2016/17 did reported recovery of 4th awacs but not sure if it's completed yet with 3 new orders total will come to 7 Saab 2k awacs plus 2 transport unless one of the transport is used for recovery

Per paf history PAC / paf have established d or depot level repair facility for Saab 2k platform


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## Falcon26

Imagine if Pakistan bought the IP rights to Saab 2000 same way it bought Saab Safari and turned it into a world class avaiation success story. Will find market domestic travel and also exported to other countries. So many possibilities too from military perspective @Quwa

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## DarX

khanasifm said:


> Modp report 2016/17 did reported recovery of 4th awacs but not sure if it's completed yet with 3 new orders total will come to 7 Saab 2k awacs plus 2 transport unless one of the transport is used for recovery
> 
> Per paf history PAC / paf have established d or depot level repair facility for Saab 2k platform



I don't think it would be a straight forward job to modify a simple Saab 2000 into this AWACS plane. This is because the structure has to be strengthened to carry the antennae and the systems, plus some modifications are always needed to accommodate the different aerodynamic profile. If they have recovered the plane, it is most likely that the original air frame has been repaired.



Falcon26 said:


> Imagine if Pakistan bought the IP rights to Saab 2000 same way it bought Saab Safari and turned it into a world class avaiation success story. Will find market domestic travel and also exported to other countries. So many possibilities too from military perspective @Quwa



That is an interesting thought but the Saab 2000 is not a very versatile plane. It was designed specifically for the commuter market and will have little use elsewhere. An ideal aircraft design should have space for cargo lifting and at the same time should have rough field performance which would allow it to be used in backward areas. All of these factors would ensure a wide range of customers and ultimate success. India has manufacturing the Dornier Do228 and it has been successful because of these factors.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> Imagine if Pakistan bought the IP rights to Saab 2000 same way it bought Saab Safari and turned it into a world class avaiation success story. Will find market domestic travel and also exported to other countries. So many possibilities too from military perspective @Quwa


It's a good idea. Granted, the Saab 2000 doesn't factor much as a cargo transport, but besides being a commuter aircraft, it can be adapted into a special mission platform. There's the AEW&C role, but also maritime and ground ISR, EW/ECM, SIGINT/ELINT, etc. It's still relatively limited scope as it can't be armed, and a lot of these other roles have now been taken by the ATR-72, Hawker, etc in the PN. 

For dual civil and military aviation, perhaps consider joining the Indonesian N295, basically an airliner version of the C295. It goes without saying, but scale the infrastructure and expertise built for the N295 and apply to the C295.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's a good idea. Granted, the Saab 2000 doesn't factor much as a cargo transport, but besides being a commuter aircraft, it can be adapted into a special mission platform. There's the AEW&C role, but also maritime and ground ISR, EW/ECM, SIGINT/ELINT, etc. It's still relatively limited scope as it can't be armed, and a lot of these other roles have now been taken by the ATR-72, Hawker, etc in the PN.
> 
> For dual civil and military aviation, perhaps consider joining the Indonesian N295, basically an airliner version of the C295. It goes without saying, but scale the infrastructure and expertise built for the N295 and apply to the C295.



Indeed.

With the operationalization of Kamra Aviation city, PAF should revisit the Saab Safari model and look for platforms that have dual military and commercial applications. I suspect your country will have even more success with it than the Mushshak, which is one of the best aviation success stories out of Asia

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> Indeed.
> 
> With the operationalization of Kamra Aviation city, PAF should revisit the Saab Safari model and look for platforms that have dual military and commercial applications. I suspect your country will have even more success with it than the Mushshak, which is one of the best aviation success stories out of Asia


It's unfortunate that each of the service arms recently bought special mission planes on other platforms, otherwise, a strong standardized domestic path could have been explored. That said, like the Super Mushshak, an export oriented revived Saab 2000 "modular special mission" platform that can swap in/out kits (for ISR, EW/ECM, ELINT/SIGINT) could be neat. As one can't arm them it might easier to market to a wide variety of countries in the developing world, especially those interested in building special mission capabilities.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's unfortunate that each of the service arms recently bought special mission planes on other platforms, otherwise, a strong standardized domestic path could have been explored. That said, like the Super Mushshak, an export oriented revived Saab 2000 "modular special mission" platform that can swap in/out kits (for ISR, EW/ECM, ELINT/SIGINT) could be neat. As one can't arm them it might easier to market to a wide variety of countries in the developing world, especially those interested in building special mission capabilities.


The swedes have the lead on that;the PAF chose the Saab 2000 out of fait accompli as it wanted a larger platform than the 340 but could not afford the Emb-145 so it asked Saab for a more affordable solution. SAAB were aware of Saab 2000 airframes being phased out by airlines due to it being a less than common airframe and the bombardier -8 being more affordable and economical. In addition, SAAB had done a study on the airframe previously for the Swedish AF so the option was available faster.

PN chose the ATR as PIA has all the maintenance facilities available for it which the PN can pay them for and avoid the need for replication along with having a steady source of spares(and spare aircraft) for wartime purposes as well.

Unfortunate yes, but not by willful choice of being different.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> The swedes have the lead on that;the PAF chose the Saab 2000 out of fait accompli as it wanted a larger platform than the 340 but could not afford the Emb-145 so it asked Saab for a more affordable solution. SAAB were aware of Saab 2000 airframes being phased out by airlines due to it being a less than common airframe and the bombardier -8 being more affordable and economical. In addition, SAAB had done a study on the airframe previously for the Swedish AF so the option was available faster.
> 
> PN chose the ATR as PIA has all the maintenance facilities available for it which the PN can pay them for and avoid the need for replication along with having a steady source of spares(and spare aircraft) for wartime purposes as well.
> 
> Unfortunate yes, but not by willful choice of being different.


IIRC there are some Gulfstreams around for VIP, I wonder if they'll be converted into new EW/ECM or ELINT/SIGINT planes too (if and when funding permits).


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## Imran Khan

razgriz19 said:


> I hope that's true! Getting back the strength of four would be awesome


Three have been confirmed already sir

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## syed_yusuf

Imran Khan said:


> Three have been confirmed already sir


What was the number of 4th

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## Imran Khan

025
045
040

missing one is 
049


025 and 045 on 23 march 2017 






040 was spotted in 2015 airshow

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## war&peace

Falcon26 said:


> Imagine if Pakistan bought the IP rights to Saab 2000 same way it bought Saab Safari and turned it into a world class avaiation success story. Will find market domestic travel and also exported to other countries. So many possibilities too from military perspective @Quwa


PAF should first try to get ToT on Saab 2000 and EricEye, IP is the next step.


----------



## Super Falcon

Major difference between round shaped and horizental radars on both awacs does it has any significant advantage between two


----------



## nomi007

Google Earth says 27/04/2016
is one more zdk-03 is under construction in xian


----------



## razgriz19

Imran Khan said:


> 025
> 045
> 040
> 
> missing one is
> 049
> 
> 
> 025 and 045 on 23 march 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 040 was spotted in 2015 airshow


Maybe they're still working on the replacement. There were news of purchasing another unit...0049 must've been the write off


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

razgriz19 said:


> Maybe they're still working on the replacement. There were news of purchasing another unit...0049 must've been the write off


The '15-16 MoDP report said the PAF recovered the 4th Erieye - and that too at the cost of a new system (not including after-sale maintenance support).

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## Blue Marlin

Imran Khan said:


> 025
> 045
> 040
> 
> missing one is
> 049
> 
> 
> 025 and 045 on 23 march 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 040 was spotted in 2015 airshow


notice how they have a bulge on the belly was not on the awacs post the attack.

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## Safriz

Blue Marlin said:


> notice how they have a bulge on the belly was not on the awacs post the attack.


Initial batch came without ELINT / SIGINT.
Thanks to Indian pressure and Grippen lollypop.

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## Blue Marlin

شاھین میزایل said:


> Initial batch came without ELINT / SIGINT.
> Thanks to Indian pressure and Grippen lollypop.


more like either the inclusion of sar or an upgraded link to ground


----------



## Super Falcon

Why PAF not buying KJ 2000 on il 78 platform


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blue Marlin said:


> notice how they have a bulge on the belly was not on the awacs post the attack.





Blue Marlin said:


> more like either the inclusion of sar or an upgraded link to ground


Yep seems like ground-facing systems. I'm not sure if it's SAR though - it'd have to be pretty small. The SAR compartment on the GlobalEye and even King Air 350ER is quite large (see here and here). I wonder if it's an EO/IR turret instead?


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## Blue Marlin

nomi007 said:


> Google Earth says 27/04/2016
> is one more zdk-03 is under construction in xian
> 
> View attachment 419318


could be a kj500







Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep seems like ground-facing systems. I'm not sure if it's SAR though - it'd have to be pretty small. The SAR compartment on the GlobalEye and even King Air 350ER is quite large (see here and here). I wonder if it's an EO/IR turret instead?


good point probably a smaller variant at there may not be enough power to power a large sar. which is a good point.
or it could be some upgraded (local) des encryption communication antenna.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blue Marlin said:


> could be a kj500
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> good point probably a smaller variant at there may not be enough power to power a large sar. which is a good point.
> or it could be some upgraded (local) des encryption communication antenna.


It could be something like the Leonardo PicoSAR. The PicoSAR is very small.

http://www.leonardocompany.com/documents/63265270/71948109/body_mm07774_PicoSAR_LQ_.pdf

http://www.janes.com/images/assets/389/68389/p1692903.jpg


----------



## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It could be something like the Leonardo PicoSAR. The PicoSAR is very small.
> 
> http://www.leonardocompany.com/documents/63265270/71948109/body_mm07774_PicoSAR_LQ_.pdf
> 
> http://www.janes.com/images/assets/389/68389/p1692903.jpg


could be, who knows.


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## Safriz

Surprise Surprise . The Serial number has changed. This is a new one. Not seen previously.

__
https://flic.kr/p/36428160071

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## HRK

Blue Marlin said:


> notice how they have a bulge on the belly was not on the awacs post the attack.


that bulge is visible from quite some time see below (10025+11045 from last year)





10040




& form this year


----------



## Blue Marlin

HRK said:


> that bulge is visible from quite some time see below (10025+11045 from last year)
> View attachment 419411
> 
> 10040
> View attachment 419415
> 
> & form this year
> View attachment 419418


but what about from when they were first inducted???


----------



## HRK

Blue Marlin said:


> but what about from when they were first inducted???


it was not present at that time ....


----------



## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's unfortunate that each of the service arms recently bought special mission planes on other platforms, otherwise, a strong standardized domestic path could have been explored. That said, like the Super Mushshak, an export oriented revived Saab 2000 "modular special mission" platform that can swap in/out kits (for ISR, EW/ECM, ELINT/SIGINT) could be neat. As one can't arm them it might easier to market to a wide variety of countries in the developing world, especially those interested in building special mission capabilities.


what ISR, EW/ECM, ELINT/SIGINT solutions are being used at present?


----------



## Hassan Guy

I'm guessing the zdk03 is essentially the kj200 on the y8


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## TaimiKhan

Hassan Guy said:


> I'm guessing the zdk03 is essentially the kj200 on the y8


Nops, KJ500 = ZDK03


----------



## Blue Marlin

HRK said:


> it was not present at that time ....


hence my point proven.......



TaimiKhan said:


> Nops, KJ500 = ZDK03


i thought the Pakistani awac only has a pesa whilst the kj-500 has an aesa+ additional sensors.

note below the additional side and nose sensors




note below pakistani awac with no exterior sensors which the above kj-500 has...






also notice the radome of the kj-500 is split into 3 whilst the pakistani zdk only has 2 large pesa sensors.


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## Windjammer



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## Safriz

So what happened of 10045?
From where did 11045 come?



Blue Marlin said:


> hence my point proven.......
> 
> 
> i thought the Pakistani awac only has a pesa whilst the kj-500 has an aesa+ additional sensors.
> 
> note below the additional side and nose sensors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> note below pakistani awac with no exterior sensors which the above kj-500 has...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also notice the radome of the kj-500 is split into 3 whilst the pakistani zdk only has 2 large pesa sensors.


Karakoram eagle has a longer range than Erieye and is mostly used for tracking ships at sea.

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## TaimiKhan

Blue Marlin said:


> hence my point proven.......
> 
> 
> i thought the Pakistani awac only has a pesa whilst the kj-500 has an aesa+ additional sensors.
> 
> note below the additional side and nose sensors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> note below pakistani awac with no exterior sensors which the above kj-500 has...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also notice the radome of the kj-500 is split into 3 whilst the pakistani zdk only has 2 large pesa sensors.


Radar specs and sensors r different.


----------



## Safriz

I guess ZDK-03 was a bespoke design made to PAF requirements and cannot be compared with any other exciting system. I am not saying its alien tech, i am saying it has different combination of sensors and capabilities is different.
Also the Firmware / Software is open to PAF for manipulation and adding new sensors.


----------



## nomi007

Blue Marlin said:


> could be a kj500
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> good point probably a smaller variant at there may not be enough power to power a large sar. which is a good point.
> or it could be some upgraded (local) des encryption communication antenna.


Doom are different


----------



## syed_yusuf

I thought pad ke03 has single rotating aesa radar


----------



## Blue Marlin

شاھین میزایل said:


> So what happened of 10045?
> From where did 11045 come?
> 
> 
> Karakoram eagle has a longer range than Erieye and is mostly used for tracking ships at sea.


i never mentioned the range, but yes your correct.



TaimiKhan said:


> Radar specs and sensors r different.


so then the zdk-03 is not = to the kj-500 then.


nomi007 said:


> Doom are different


i mentioned that.


----------



## Safriz

syed_yusuf said:


> I thought pad ke03 has single rotating aesa radar


No its PESA. That too electronically steers the beam by constructive and destructive interference but has limits.


----------



## TaimiKhan

Blue Marlin said:


> i never mentioned the range, but yes your correct.
> 
> 
> so then the zdk-03 is not = to the kj-500 then.
> 
> i mentioned that.


Not a 100 percent. Some say PAF got pesa radars, while chinese may be having aesa or may be pesa. Ours came first and then chinese got them inducted. So they would have made changes as per their requirements.


----------



## Blue Marlin

TaimiKhan said:


> Not a 100 percent. Some say PAF got pesa radars, while chinese may be having aesa or may be pesa. Ours came first and then chinese got them inducted. So they would have made changes as per their requirements.


well id imagine pakistan got pesa's which would explain two large rotating modules whilst the chinese version has 3 rotating modules. (the number of modules on a rotating system does not make much difference) id probably go with what messiah said and say pakistan may go for the an upgraded variant (kj-500) later on.


----------



## Safriz

Blue Marlin said:


> well id imagine pakistan got pesa's which would explain two large rotating modules whilst the chinese version has 3 rotating modules. (the number of modules on a rotating system does not make much difference) id probably go with what messiah said and say pakistan may go for the an upgraded variant (kj-500) later on.


No its just one half circle inside the rotodome , the other half is empty.

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## TaimiKhan

Blue Marlin said:


> well id imagine pakistan got pesa's which would explain two large rotating modules whilst the chinese version has 3 rotating modules. (the number of modules on a rotating system does not make much difference) id probably go with what messiah said and say pakistan may go for the an upgraded variant (kj-500) later on.


If chinese have 3 sections then its aesa and the dish wont rotate. 3 sections give them 360 coverage. Yups they PAF do have plan for future upgrade but would depend how much benefit aesa gives compared to current system.

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## Blue Marlin

شاھین میزایل said:


> No its just one half circle inside the rotodome , the other half is empty.


for the e3 yes but we dont know the layout for the zdk's


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> what ISR, EW/ECM, ELINT/SIGINT solutions are being used at present?


ISR - King Air 350ER, ATR-72 MPA and maybe Hawker 850XP
EW/ECM - Hawker 850XP, Falcon DA 20
ELINT/SIGINT - Falcon DA 20

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## Safriz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ISR - King Air 350ER, ATR-72 MPA and maybe Hawker 850XP
> EW/ECM - Hawker 850XP, Falcon DA 20
> ELINT/SIGINT - Falcon DA 20


ZDK-03 may also have ELINT / SIGINT judging by the number of antennas on it, just too many.

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## ziaulislam

khanasifm said:


> Modp report 2016/17 did reported recovery of 4th awacs but not sure if it's completed yet with 3 new orders total will come to 7 Saab 2k awacs plus 2 transport unless one of the transport is used for recovery
> 
> Per paf history PAC / paf have established d or depot level repair facility for Saab 2k platform


Per PAF recent chief interview he clearly states that all lost AWECs were recovered


----------



## Safriz

There were 3 erieye ever photographed together. And that too on or a short while before Kamra attack in 2012. So they did keep 3 Erieyes at Kamra before the attack. Probably all three Pakistan had.


----------



## nomi007

شاھین میزایل said:


> There were 3 erieye ever photographed together. And that too on or a short while before Kamra attack in 2012. So they did keep 3 Erieyes at Kamra before the attack. Probably all three Pakistan had.


parking 750million $ aircrafts like this is shameful

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## Safriz

nomi007 said:


> parking 750million $ aircrafts like this is shameful


there are many unexplained mysteries from zardari era.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Most airforces do it like this. 


nomi007 said:


> parking 750million $ aircrafts like this is shameful

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## nomi007

شاھین میزایل said:


> there are many unexplained mysteries from zardari era.


don't blame zardari for every thing
mehran is naval & kamra base is under paf control



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Most airforces do it like this.


most airforce have full proof security also

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## Safriz

nomi007 said:


> don't blame zardari for every thing
> mehran is naval & kamra base is under paf control
> 
> 
> most airforce have full proof security also


zardari continuously gobbled up 40% of PAF budget throughout his time.


----------



## araz

شاھین میزایل said:


> zardari continuously gobbled up 40% of PAF budget throughout his time.


This is rubbish.Why was he allowed to do so. Why did people just shut up and not have a say.Why did no one resign in protest and come to thew fore and let people know what is going on. 
People ate with Zardari and made money which is why it now seems prudent to blame him but no one mentions all the parasites that gobbled along with the big fish. This is the reality.#
A

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## Arsalan

araz said:


> This is rubbish.Why was he allowed to do so. Why did people just shut up and not have a say.Why did no one resign in protest and come to thew fore and let people know what is going on.
> People ate with Zardari and made money which is why it now seems prudent to blame him but no one mentions all the parasites that gobbled along with the big fish. This is the reality.#
> A


In such bad mood that you go on to expose the harsh realities? 


It is easier to point fingers now and blame certain someone but the truth is, as you said, while he was looting the nation, ALL THOSE who kept quite about it are equally guilty!

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## Ahmet Pasha

Those air forces are sitting thousands of miles away and stirring up trouble in other lands through their proxies


nomi007 said:


> don't blame zardari for every thing
> mehran is naval & kamra base is under paf control
> 
> 
> most airforce have full proof security also



They are not engaged in a protracted asymmetrical war.


----------



## araz

Arsalan said:


> In such bad mood that you go on to expose the harsh realities?
> 
> 
> It is easier to point fingers now and blame certain someone but the truth is, as you said, while he was looting the nation, ALL THOSE who kept quite about it are equally guilty!


When AC Dhotani was shown the door by Benazir and the file for the M2Ks thrown out of the window, he returned to the base. One of the seniors asked him what had happened. He related the whole story. The senior said" you should have accepted Zardari's offer. We would all have eaten well from the pickings(the wordings have not been the same but the gist of the convo as related by MHK Dhltani himself)." No there are a lot of naked people in this festering pit. Also our Cynic in chief does not know that the file festered on Benazir's office for 3 months before Zardari approached AC Dhotani for the famous bribe case.1
Another friend nearly named the 2-3 people involved in the murder of Zia on the net and mentioned they got 5 million each to do Zia in. The post was rapidly deleted on another forum. The point is these crimes are in open knowledge of people in the know and nothing is done. Frankly it disgusts me that the efforts of a lot of dedicated and honest people are oversbadowed by the corrupt practices of some filthy and dirty fish. The majority of the forces are dedicated and honest people but these bastards give the forces a bad name. As time has gone on these practices are becoming more of norm than an exception as it is in the rest of the country.
Now enough bile for the day. I am out of here.
A

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

In my personal life---when I come across a road block I find ways around it---I try to find the cost to get over the hump so that I can keep on moving---because I know that the cost of going over the hump is the cost attached to a better future---and maybe one day I will be in a position to recover that cost.

But if my focus is locked on the road block and nothing else---I am just basically preparing myself for a permanent failure---.

The bribe was not 200 million dollars---it was the price of 4 M2K's----because 36 was the projected target---

And I have explained many a times---that instead of the 36---32 would have done the job very well.

It is just the cost of doing business---.

The next thing that you people talk about is the high cost of operating them---.

Well---if you had put 4 M2K's in a fixed deposit earning scheme for 10 years---you would have a substantial income coming every year to cover a substantial cost of operation---( 4 M2K's is equal to 200 million dollars ).

Now---would 28 aircraft had done the job for the 36---with a lots of push---shove and hard work---the 28 would have filled in the void very well.

Diversity makes you improvise---how can you get to your target from a different vantage point---.

Pakistani nuc scientists achieved their goals---because there were brilliant minds behind the project.

I cannot tell you about the deceit and deception our scientists used to get the necessary equipment for the nuc program---they did it---because there was conviction to succeed---they did it because those super geniuses knew how to tackle such problems---.

A minimum of 1/2 billion dollars---possibly 1 billion dollars went to illegal activity---payoff---bribes---over billing---over invoicing---.

You young pakistani kids needs to get out of your eternal stupidity and learn that running a nation is not like playing by the rules of a cricket umpire---.

Bribes are bad---but maintaining the nation sovereignty is more important.

You pakistani kids must find out what outrageous prices the israelis paid to czekoslavakia for weapons in the late 40's early 50's.

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## Thorough Pro

they were upgraded and new capabilites were added, not everything makes it to rumour boards



Blue Marlin said:


> hence my point proven.......
> 
> 
> i thought the Pakistani awac only has a pesa whilst the kj-500 has an aesa+ additional sensors.
> 
> note below the additional side and nose sensors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> note below pakistani awac with no exterior sensors which the above kj-500 has...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also notice the radome of the kj-500 is split into 3 whilst the pakistani zdk only has 2 large pesa sensors.



not sure about the "Full" (fool) proof security, but there is always a first (in ladi back lazy attitude, second) time to learn the valuable lesson



nomi007 said:


> don't blame zardari for every thing
> mehran is naval & kamra base is under paf control
> 
> 
> most airforce have full proof security also

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## MastanKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In my personal life---when I come across a road block I find ways around it---I try to find the cost to get over the hump so that I can keep on moving---because I know that the cost of going over the hump is the cost attached to a better future---and maybe one day I will be in a position to recover that cost.
> 
> But if my focus is locked on the road block and nothing else---I am just basically preparing myself for a permanent failure---.
> 
> The bribe was not 200 million dollars---it was the price of 4 M2K's----because 36 was the projected target---
> 
> And I have explained many a times---that instead of the 36---32 would have done the job very well.
> 
> It is just the cost of doing business---.
> 
> The next thing that you people talk about is the high cost of operating them---.
> 
> Well---if you had put 4 M2K's in a fixed deposit earning scheme for 10 years---you would have a substantial income coming every year to cover a substantial cost of operation---( 4 M2K's is equal to 200 million dollars ).
> 
> Now---would 28 aircraft had done the job for the 36---with a lots of push---shove and hard work---the 28 would have filled in the void very well.
> 
> Diversity makes you improvise---how can you get to your target from a different vantage point---.
> 
> Pakistani nuc scientists achieved their goals---because there were brilliant minds behind the project.
> 
> I cannot tell you about the deceit and deception our scientists used to get the necessary equipment for the nuc program---they did it---because there was conviction to succeed---they did it because those super geniuses knew how to tackle such problems---.
> 
> A minimum of 1/2 billion dollars---possibly 1 billion dollars went to illegal activity---payoff---bribes---over billing---over invoicing---.
> 
> You young pakistani kids needs to get out of your eternal stupidity and learn that running a nation is not like playing by the rules of a cricket umpire---.
> 
> Bribes are bad---but maintaining the nation sovereignty is more important.
> 
> You pakistani kids must find out what outrageous prices the israelis paid to czekoslavakia for weapons in the late 40's early 50's.



Hi,

As I have written in my post---our nuc program may have paid over 1/2 to 1 Billion dollars in Bakhsheesh / Payola---could it be 2 billion dollars---it could be---.

Why did we pay that---why did those behind the procurement paid that---.

We paid that because our very existence depended upon it---

Secondly---those who paid it---they were highly educated professionals coming from different backgrounds with experience of working in different countries---

You would hardly find someone below a PhD in that group---

Now compare it to the Paf---all generals staff have a basic 12th grade fundamental education as a free thinker---whatever other education they gain is in an enclosed environment that brainwashes and controls their way of thinking---so regardless of what degrees they get after the fact---their brains stay at the level of a 12th grade education---and that is how they look at issues.

Your PhD scientist had worked in France---in UK---in the USA---in Canada---in Holland---he had a greater and a grander vision of what needed to be done---he had attained his education with a free and developing mind---.

A lot of these scientists came from extremely poor background---totally destitue---LIKE MY UNCLE---if---when he went thru govt college Lahore in the early 1960's---if he did not have a scholarship and did not teach other students while going to college and sent home Rs200 a month---there was no future for him---.

He submitted 10 nuclear reactor designs during his stay in the US in the late 60's---. He was amongst many a scientists of pakistan who went out to procure for the pak nuc program---he would just drop hints and what he had to face to buy the stuff---but the stuff was bought at ANY COST---.

I am giving you the pakistani kids these examples so that you know how stupid that air force person was who refused the M2K deal---that man---who araz wants to protect----destroyed the integrity and defense of pakistan out of sheer ignorance---and TOO MUCH HONESTY---.

When making these deals---you need ars-eholes who can find ways to do outrageous things and not sit on their pride.

We all condemn both Benazir and Zardari and I do it too---they tool a lot of money of Agosta 90 B---.

But have you dumb fcks ever thought what you got in return---the Agosta 90 B was the most advanced sub in the region for years---they got us the best of the best---and it would still be a force to recon with after being refurbished---.

Honesty in procurement is an OXYMORON---what you will settle for is if your buyer has managed to get the best possible item under the given circumstances---and you will consider it as a blessing---.

In a similar manner like our nuc scientists did for us---.

These scientists were given suit cases full of money and were told---go get it---don't come back empty handed---need more---let us know---and they made us proud.

If the 50000 pakistani memnbers on this board realized that and made it a one voice---one loud voice and addressed the Paf---they would have shaken the foundation of the thieves sitting in the Paf---.

But you dumb fools---one after the other come up with the excuse---we had no funds---Paf had no funds---and you have no clue about it---if they had funds or not---but just because you had a piece of flesh in your mouth and it could utter that---you uttered it---.

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## Super Falcon

What is difference between Saab 2000 erieye and Saab 340 erieye

And why it has a horizontal radar than the roundal how it works from inside it harly rotates in front and back of the aircraft which is a big hole 

Saab gives 340 degree coverage lesser than all round coverage
.
Yes ZDK 03 is better but we need a radar that can picture entire india 450 range is not good enough we need at least range up to 2500 km to see complete picture of Airfields in india

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## Bossman

There are no limits to Mastan's sense of frustration.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> As I have written in my post---our nuc program may have paid over 1/2 to 1 Billion dollars in Bakhsheesh / Payola---could it be 2 billion dollars---it could be---.
> 
> Why did we pay that---why did those behind the procurement paid that---.
> 
> We paid that because our very existence depended upon it---
> 
> Secondly---those who paid it---they were highly educated professionals coming from different backgrounds with experience of working in different countries---
> 
> You would hardly find someone below a PhD in that group---
> 
> Now compare it to the Paf---all generals staff have a basic 12th grade fundamental education as a free thinker---whatever other education they gain is in an enclosed environment that brainwashes and controls their way of thinking---so regardless of what degrees they get after the fact---their brains stay at the level of a 12th grade education---and that is how they look at issues.
> 
> Your PhD scientist had worked in France---in UK---in the USA---in Canada---in Holland---he had a greater and a grander vision of what needed to be done---he had attained his education with a free and developing mind---.
> 
> A lot of these scientists came from extremely poor background---totally destitue---LIKE MY UNCLE---if---when he went thru govt college Lahore in the early 1960's---if he did not have a scholarship and did not teach other students while going to college and sent home Rs200 a month---there was no future for him---.
> 
> He submitted 10 nuclear reactor designs during his stay in the US in the late 60's---. He was amongst many a scientists of pakistan who went out to procure for the pak nuc program---he would just drop hints and what he had to face to buy the stuff---but the stuff was bought at ANY COST---.
> 
> I am giving you the pakistani kids these examples so that you know how stupid that air force person was who refused the M2K deal---that man---who araz wants to protect----destroyed the integrity and defense of pakistan out of sheer ignorance---and TOO MUCH HONESTY---.
> 
> When making these deals---you need ars-eholes who can find ways to do outrageous things and not sit on their pride.
> 
> We all condemn both Benazir and Zardari and I do it too---they tool a lot of money of Agosta 90 B---.
> 
> But have you dumb fcks ever thought what you got in return---the Agosta 90 B was the most advanced sub in the region for years---they got us the best of the best---and it would still be a force to recon with after being refurbished---.
> 
> Honesty in procurement is an OXYMORON---what you will settle for is if your buyer has managed to get the best possible item under the given circumstances---and you will consider it as a blessing---.
> 
> In a similar manner like our nuc scientists did for us---.
> 
> These scientists were given suit cases full of money and were told---go get it---don't come back empty handed---need more---let us know---and they made us proud.
> 
> If the 50000 pakistani memnbers on this board realized that and made it a one voice---one loud voice and addressed the Paf---they would have shaken the foundation of the thieves sitting in the Paf---.
> 
> But you dumb fools---one after the other come up with the excuse---we had no funds---Paf had no funds---and you have no clue about it---if they had funds or not---but just because you had a piece of flesh in your mouth and it could utter that---you uttered it---.





Super Falcon said:


> What is difference between Saab 2000 erieye and Saab 340 erieye
> 
> And why it has a horizontal radar than the roundal how it works from inside it harly rotates in front and back of the aircraft which is a big hole
> 
> Saab gives 340 degree coverage lesser than all round coverage
> .
> Yes ZDK 03 is better but we need a radar that can picture entire india 450 range is not good enough we need at least range up to 2500 km to see complete picture of Airfields in india


Why don't you invent a radar with a 2,500 range.

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## TaimiKhan

Super Falcon said:


> What is difference between Saab 2000 erieye and Saab 340 erieye
> 
> And why it has a horizontal radar than the roundal how it works from inside it harly rotates in front and back of the aircraft which is a big hole
> 
> Saab gives 340 degree coverage lesser than all round coverage
> .
> Yes ZDK 03 is better but we need a radar that can picture entire india 450 range is not good enough we need at least range up to 2500 km to see complete picture of Airfields in india



Radars r same, platform on which mounted different, thus endurance difference. 

It has aesa radar thus no need for a rotation system. Not much problem as aircraft can change is position to keep an eye where the radar beams cant reach. 

Why do u need to see to see whole india? See what is needed, our air space and theirs from whr threats come to give us an early warning.

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## jamal18

araz said:


> This is rubbish.Why was he allowed to do so. Why did people just shut up and not have a say.Why did no one resign in protest and come to thew fore and let people know what is going on.
> People ate with Zardari and made money which is why it now seems prudent to blame him but no one mentions all the parasites that gobbled along with the big fish. This is the reality.#
> A



Precisely. I love it when people blame Zardari for the attempted purchase of Mirage-2000 at inflated prices.
Amazing how all those air force officers kept quite about it!

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## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> There are no limits to Mastan's sense of frustration.



Hi,

First time you have spoken the truth---thank you.



Super Falcon said:


> What is difference between Saab 2000 erieye and Saab 340 erieye
> 
> And why it has a horizontal radar than the roundal how it works from inside it harly rotates in front and back of the aircraft which is a big hole
> 
> Saab gives 340 degree coverage lesser than all round coverage
> .
> Yes ZDK 03 is better but we need a radar that can picture entire india 450 range is not good enough we need at least range up to 2500 km to see complete picture of Airfields in india



Hi,

Only if the earth was flat---that would happen---but due to the curvature of the earth---it is not possible.

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## fatman17

Idi Amin Dada said:


> JF-17 can only communicate with Chinese AWACS and we have Chinese AWACS for the same reason,
> for F-16 we have SAAB AWACS.


They can also talk through a ground station link

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## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> First time you have spoken the truth---thank you.
> .


 But your sense of frustration is for personal reasons that you drag into this forum

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## Yerusalem 4880 Kms

fatman17 said:


> They can also talk through a ground station link


But the can't benefit from the direct data link or radar guidance from the awcs.

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## khanasifm

Paf just ordered more Saab and not k3 obviously if they could only talk to f-16 ?? Why order more Saab to support only 4 f16 sqn vs k3 for rest of the airforce actually even mirages have data link so they see what Saab or jf or f16 radar is painting

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## khanasifm

What is the covered eqpt in the cockpit on rhs datalink terminal ??

Looks like ft7pgs as there is no frame on the front ??

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## TaimiKhan

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Only talk/communicate to ground ,it Doesnt work bcz real time data/info can be transferred using awacs only , i guess


U know googling about something first is better before we start a discussion. 

Jf17 have german communication equipment and they have no prb talking to f16s or Saab aew. 

Prb now comes in data transfer linking, and for that purpose the saab and zdk03 are all linked to a GCS and what they are seeing is displayed on the ground and whole picture is made clear through which assets are controlled and commanded and data can be sent to any aircraft from the GCS whether its jf17 or f16. 

Solution in shape of a PAF made link17 was in progress so that we have our own tech for data transfer among majority of the assets instead of relying on western tech. 

http://quwa.org/2016/04/05/link-17-pakistans-homegrown-data-link-system/

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

TaimiKhan said:


> U know googling about something first is better before we start a discussion.
> 
> Jf17 have german communication equipment and they have no prb talking to f16s or Saab aew.
> 
> Prb now comes in data transfer linking, and for that purpose the saab and zdk03 are all linked to a GCS and what they are seeing is displayed on the ground and whole picture is made clear through which assets are controlled and commanded and data can be sent to any aircraft from the GCS whether its jf17 or f16.
> 
> Solution in shape of a PAF made link17 was in progress so that we have our own tech for data transfer among majority of the assets instead of relying on western tech.
> 
> http://quwa.org/2016/04/05/link-17-pakistans-homegrown-data-link-system/


I thought that may be awacs directly provide data to friendly aircrafts thats why i used word "i guess" bcz i wasnt sure about this but any way thanks for clarifying and giving right answer

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 422849
> 
> 
> What is the covered eqpt in the cockpit on rhs datalink terminal ??
> 
> Looks like ft7pgs as there is no frame on the front ??



I feel it's F7T twin seater reason look at canopy hing on the right side .Both F7 P /PG has regular canopy open upwards .

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## khanasifm

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-wonders-of-link-16-for-less-midslvts-updated-02471/



http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capa...G_278-A007-Link_22_Guidebook_Overview_Ed4.pdf

Per paf history 1999-2013 a tactical data link was developed indigenously by paf for its use part of vision 2000 and beyond which included c4isr and other toys such as tps77, ylc2 other upgrade etc

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## fatman17

Yerusalem 4880 Kms said:


> But the can't benefit from the direct data link or radar guidance from the awcs.


Apparently seems to be working at least during airforce exercises

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## TaimiKhan

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> I thought that may be awacs directly provide data to friendly aircrafts thats why i used word "i guess" bcz i wasnt sure about this but any way thanks for clarifying and giving right answer


Give this a read:

http://quwa.org/2016/03/27/pakistans-c4isr-part-4-communications-data-links/

In simple words take example of real world, iphone only exchanges data through Bluetooth with another apple device and not with an android based or windows based bluetooth, this is due to software related restrictions. However a windows based nokia can share data with android based phone through bluetooth. Thus data linking is more likely based on software rather then hardware. 

Read above link, will give u a good idea how SDRs / TDL work.

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## Sulman Badshah



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## Imran Khan

saab-2000 trainer

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## khanasifm

Another Saab 2000was added to transport fleet under assuming VIP 12 sqn , paf S/N J062 and VP-BPL ???


Thus pilots get airtime on j019 and j062 (serving as transport a/c) before moving to AWACS Sqn

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Saab_2000,_Polet_Flight_JP7470617.jpg/1024px-Saab_2000,_Polet_Flight_JP7470617.jpg

http://www.historyofpia.com/board/march_17/saab_mar23a.jpg


http://www.historyofpia.com/board/march_17/saab_mar23g.jpg






http://www.saabaircraftleasing.com/prod/dataSheets/2000_FAR.pdf

AWAC

http://saab.com/air/airborne-solutions/airborne-surveillance/saab-2000-erieye-aewc/

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## Sulman Badshah

*World Today Defence Day Special*

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## Dazzler

It's a moment of pride indeed, the OEM called repairing them a lost cause. They wrote these two off from their registry records. Guess what..they were proven wrong, and pretty badly.

Extent of damage..























After recovery..



































All work done and certified by local aviation industry. The aircraft were re registratered by the Swedes, as they had to eat their words.

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## Hell hound

Dazzler said:


> It's a moment of pride indeed, the OEM called repairing them a lost cause. They wrote these two off from their registry records. Guess what..they were proven wrong, and pretty badly.
> 
> Extent of damage..
> 
> View attachment 427309
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 427310
> 
> 
> View attachment 427311
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 427312
> 
> 
> After recovery..
> View attachment 427313
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 427314
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 427315
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 427316
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 427317
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 427318
> 
> 
> All work done and certified by local aviation industry. The aircraft were re registratered by the Swedes, as they had to eat their words.


so how many saab awacs are operational as of now 3 or all 4

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## Dazzler

4


Hell hound said:


> so how many saab awacs are operational as of now 3 or all 4

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## Hassan Guy

After all the recovery work of the Saab 2000 it would be a waste if they just kept ordering more from abroad.

They can definitely build an aircraft of comparable role locally.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-importance-of-a-turboprop-aircraft-industry-in-pakistan.477553/

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## ziaulislam

Hassan Guy said:


> After all the recovery work of the Saab 2000 it would be a waste if they just kept ordering more from abroad.
> 
> They can definitely build an aircraft of comparable role locally.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-importance-of-a-turboprop-aircraft-industry-in-pakistan.477553/


Will cost more. Better to work on things which make sense in economy of scale first like JV in helios, missiles, tanks, artillery etc..which we are still more or less importing

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## ziaulislam

So its official no aircarfts were lost

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## Tank131

Hassan Guy said:


> After all the recovery work of the Saab 2000 it would be a waste if they just kept ordering more from abroad.
> 
> They can definitely build an aircraft of comparable role locally.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-importance-of-a-turboprop-aircraft-industry-in-pakistan.477553/



Pakistanis can rebuild and fix anything, thats a known fact. Give them a busted up stealth fighter and they will figure it out. But to build a comparable aircraft you need design teams and lare wind tunnels for design testing and more than anything, the money to design and produce the aircraft. That would be the major rate limiting step. It is cheaper to buy it off the shelf.

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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> 4



3. Read latest MODP report once again



Hell hound said:


> so how many saab awacs are operational as of now 3 or all 4



3. One needs to be purchase to replace the completely destroyed AEWC



ziaulislam said:


> So its official no aircarfts were lost



Read MODP 2016 report to not get confused. One was lost, two was damaged. They have fixed the two damaged aircrafts

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## khanasifm

Bratva said:


> 3. Read latest MODP report once again
> 
> 
> 
> 3. One needs to be purchase to replace the completely destroyed AEWC
> 
> 
> 
> Read MODP 2016 report to not get confused. One was lost, two was damaged. They have fixed the two damaged aircrafts



Mode report states recovery of 4th awacs and not replacement if I remember correctly rest all who knows ...

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## Thorough Pro

Your logic is well.............ask your car mechanic to build you a brand new and comparable car in his workshop............ then tell us what he thinks about your logic.





Hassan Guy said:


> After all the recovery work of the Saab 2000 it would be a waste if they just kept ordering more from abroad.
> 
> They can definitely build an aircraft of comparable role locally.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-importance-of-a-turboprop-aircraft-industry-in-pakistan.477553/

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## Ahmet Pasha

It is actually cheaper to make things in Pakistan. Because labor and ALMOST everything else is going to be a lot cheaper to source locally than say in a 1st world country. Moreover, we save foreign exchange reserves on spare parts deals we would have to sign with foreign suppliers. Then there are savings we would be making due to bypassing any charges for training and support for new systems from new suppliers. 


Tank131 said:


> Pakistanis can rebuild and fix anything, thats a known fact. Give them a busted up stealth fighter and they will figure it out. But to build a comparable aircraft you need design teams and lare wind tunnels for design testing and more than anything, the money to design and produce the aircraft. That would be the major rate limiting step. It is cheaper to buy it off the shelf.



Costs are further reduced if we succeed to find a partner. Also local industrial investment can also help us.

MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THIS:
We can become a defence EXPORTER to be reckoned with.

I think if Pakistans Weapons Industries realize their potential and make exports their goal. Then they very well cam become a force to be reckoned with.

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## Tank131

Ahmet Pasha said:


> It is actually cheaper to make things in Pakistan. Because labor and ALMOST everything else is going to be a lot cheaper to source locally than say in a 1st world country. Moreover, we save foreign exchange reserves on spare parts deals we would have to sign with foreign suppliers. Then there are savings we would be making due to bypassing any charges for training and support for new systems from new suppliers.
> 
> 
> Costs are further reduced if we succeed to find a partner. Also local industrial investment can also help us.
> 
> MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THIS:
> We can become a defence EXPORTER to be reckoned with.
> 
> I think if Pakistans Weapons Industries realize their potential and make exports their goal. Then they very well cam become a force to be reckoned with.



You are conflating make with manufacture. It is cheaper to manufacture in Pakistan, no doubt, but you have zero experience in engine design, airframe design and design testing and qualification of these said designs. There is little avionics experience as well. These things will eventually be accomplished (as evidenced by the setting up of the aviation city in Kamra) but they take a lot of time and money. Currently Pakistan has little time amd even less money (meaning it will take even longer to accomplish the goal). And these planes are second hand (lightly used) amd as such were faaaar cheaper than making it in Pakistan.

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## Hassan Guy

Thorough Pro said:


> Your logic is well.............ask your car mechanic to build you a brand new and comparable car in his workshop............ then tell us what he thinks about your logic.


There is a difference between fixing an oil leak and remanufacturing the body after an armed attack to be road worthy again.

Do you think the guys over at PAC where just tightening screws???

@MastanKhan @Khafee @Falcon26 think before you up-vote some retarded comment.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Yet PAC and PAF is saying over and over that they have the requisite know how and mean in place. JF-17, the recent revival SAAB 2k is witness. Do u knw something that PAC and PAF dont???

PAC appears to have vast experience in the things u have mentioned above apart from only engines. 

Pakistani Defence industry is able to become a significant player in the market especially in developing and semi-developed countries.

I think PAC should aim to become a defence vendor. What say you on this point my friend @Bilal Khan (Quwa).


Tank131 said:


> You are conflating make with manufacture. It is cheaper to manufacture in Pakistan, no doubt, but you have zero experience in engine design, airframe design and design testing and qualification of these said designs. There is little avionics experience as well. These things will eventually be accomplished (as evidenced by the setting up of the aviation city in Kamra) but they take a lot of time and money. Currently Pakistan has little time amd even less money (meaning it will take even longer to accomplish the goal). And these planes are second hand (lightly used) amd as such were faaaar cheaper than making it in Pakistan.

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## Bratva

khanasifm said:


> Mode report states recovery of 4th awacs and not replacement if I remember correctly rest all who knows ...



Does recovery cost 125 million dollar ? which ironically is the cost of brand new AEWC

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## Dazzler

Bratva said:


> 3. Read latest MODP report once again

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## Thorough Pro

Hassan Guy said:


> There is a difference between fixing an oil leak and remanufacturing the body after an armed attack to be road worthy again.



Mechanic don't only fix oil leaks they also do body work after car accident.





Hassan Guy said:


> Do you think the guys over at PAC where just tightening screws???



Do you think they were designing the whole plane or making it's engines or other systems from scratch?





Hassan Guy said:


> @MastanKhan @Khafee @Falcon26 think before you up-vote some retarded comment.



LOL at your frustration. Learn something from these people instead of criticizing them

What are the items listed at #11, for? Are we working on our own WVR A2A missile, or are we building our own IRST system? @Oscar @messiach @Bilal Khan 777 



Dazzler said:


> View attachment 427422

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## khanasifm

It’s very simple aircraft structure repair of destroyed/damage with same oem Registeration number if reactivated is retrieved, if new airframe plus all avionics, radar is acquired than its new registered aircraft plus /minus new radar plus avionics system is new acquisition, anyway who cares paf/pak paid hundred of million of dollars so it was loss to the country plus capability which is now restored at cost

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## MastanKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> It is actually cheaper to make things in Pakistan. Because labor and ALMOST everything else is going to be a lot cheaper to source locally than say in a 1st world country. Moreover, we save foreign exchange reserves on spare parts deals we would have to sign with foreign suppliers. Then there are savings we would be making due to bypassing any charges for training and support for new systems from new suppliers.
> 
> 
> Costs are further reduced if we succeed to find a partner. Also local industrial investment can also help us.
> 
> MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THIS:
> We can become a defence EXPORTER to be reckoned with.
> 
> I think if Pakistans Weapons Industries realize their potential and make exports their goal. Then they very well cam become a force to be reckoned with.



Hi,

Son---just because a person has a tongue in their mouth---does not mean that it needs to be wagged just like that---and I am saying that very respectfully---.

What kind of schooling makes young posters utter these stupid and outrageous comments?



Hassan Guy said:


> There is a difference between fixing an oil leak and remanufacturing the body after an armed attack to be road worthy again.
> 
> Do you think the guys over at PAC where just tightening screws???
> 
> @MastanKhan @Khafee @Falcon26 think before you up-vote some retarded comment.



Hi,

My Buddy Mohsin Ikram just re-furbished Mohtarimah Fatima Jinnahs Cadillac and mercedes---and they were in worst condition that the awac that got buil dup---.

But Mohsin Ikran is not a manufacturer of automobiles---capisce and he would never be one.

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## Hassan Guy

Thorough Pro said:


> Mechanic don't only fix oil leaks they also do body work after car accident.
> 
> Do you think they were designing the whole plane or making it's engines or other systems from scratch?


Was no car accident, those planes where written off by the OG manufacturer. 

PAC doesn't build the engines of any of they aircraft they build. 

Not even Sweden builds the engines for the Saab 2000.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Please do not let your personal grievances lower the quality of this thread. And stay on topic.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Son---just because a person has a tongue in their mouth---does not mean that it needs to be wagged just like that---and I am saying that very respectfully---.
> 
> What kind of schooling makes young posters utter these stupid and outrageous comments?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> My Buddy Mohsin Ikram just re-furbished Mohtarimah Fatima Jinnahs Cadillac and mercedes---and they were in worst condition that the awac that got buil dup---.
> 
> But Mohsin Ikran is not a manufacturer of automobiles---capisce and he would never be one.

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## Thorough Pro

What are you arguing about? I made a point that having capability to repair a piece of equipment does not equal capability to manufacture the same or a similar thing. If you can't comprehend that, then no one can help you.
I am done with you.



Hassan Guy said:


> Was no car accident, those planes where written off by the OG manufacturer.
> 
> PAC doesn't build the engines of any of they aircraft they build.
> 
> Not even Sweden builds the engines for the Saab 2000.

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## Hassan Guy

Thorough Pro said:


> What are you arguing about? I made a point that having capability to repair a piece of equipment does not equal capability to manufacture the same or a similar thing. If you can't comprehend that, then no one can help you.


That doesn't mean that PAC is not capable of producing a regional aircraft. A base is established. 
PAC first did rebuild and overhaul of fighter jets and then moved to production.


Thorough Pro said:


> I am done with you.


Dude you can disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't care.

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## araz

Hassan Guy said:


> That doesn't mean that PAC is not capable of producing a regional aircraft. A base is established.
> PAC first did rebuild and overhaul of fighter jets and then moved to production.
> 
> Dude you can disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't care.


PAF does not want to manufacture planes which have such low numerical requirement. No economy of scale in that. However the task achieved is still a proud moment for Kamra as otherwise these planes would have been write offs.
You might want to edit the last part of your post. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
A

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## Tank131

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Yet PAC and PAF is saying over and over that they have the requisite know how and mean in place. JF-17, the recent revival SAAB 2k is witness. Do u knw something that PAC and PAF dont???
> 
> PAC appears to have vast experience in the things u have mentioned above apart from only engines.
> 
> Pakistani Defence industry is able to become a significant player in the market especially in developing and semi-developed countries.
> 
> I think PAC should aim to become a defence vendor. What say you on this point my friend @Bilal Khan (Quwa).



I would love if PAC became a defense vendor but they have little to sell. Eventually this could change. And please, tell me what aircraft did PAC design? Which wind tunnel did they test it in? Which method did they use to certify it? Which avionics do they manufacture (there are actually some like HUDs and mission computers ect, but not many and all the radars were built under license). Pakistan has limited experience designing any aircraft. The ground work is being laid so that the capability will be developed in the next 10-20years, but its not there yet.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Agreed. Future of PAC should be to become a vendor


Tank131 said:


> I would love if PAC became a defense vendor but they have little to sell. Eventually this could change. And please, tell me what aircraft did PAC design? Which wind tunnel did they test it in? Which method did they use to certify it? Which avionics do they manufacture (there are actually some like HUDs and mission computers ect, but not many and all the radars were built under license). Pakistan has limited experience designing any aircraft. The ground work is being laid so that the capability will be developed in the next 10-20years, but its not there yet.

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## araz

Tank131 said:


> I would love if PAC became a defense vendor but they have little to sell. Eventually this could change. And please, tell me what aircraft did PAC design? Which wind tunnel did they test it in? Which method did they use to certify it? Which avionics do they manufacture (there are actually some like HUDs and mission computers ect, but not many and all the radars were built under license). Pakistan has limited experience designing any aircraft. The ground work is being laid so that the capability will be developed in the next 10-20years, but its not there yet.


Apart from the Jingoism which is the forte of most posters, PAC has not yet reached that level where it can design and manufacture its own plane. What has been done and in my humble opinion quite succesfully is to piggy back its development on the work done by other providers. So we have modified Mashaq to Super Mashaq with quite a few changes. We were also very actively involved with the Chinese on the JFT and possibly our input *may have* gone into the J10B. So in short we are progressing through the stages and gettting our skill mix upto the mark to be able to design and manufacture a plane in due course.
However the economies of scale and the lack of resources demand that we enter joint ventures to be able to manufacture enough numbers to keep the unit cost down. It seems the Chinese are not interested in this suggestion (purely my own assessment so could be absolutely wrong) which is why PAC is extending its arm out to our Turkish brothers as they seem to be the most likely partners for a future venture. All such assumptions are based on educated guesses and should be read as such.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Apart from the Jingoism which is the forte of most posters, PAC has not yet reached that level where it can design and manufacture its own plane. What has been done and in my humble opinion quite succesfully is to piggy back its development on the work done by other providers. So we have modified Mashaq to Super Mashaq with quite a few changes. We were also very actively involved with the Chinese on the JFT and possibly our input *may have* gone into the J10B. So in short we are progressing through the stages and gettting our skill mix upto the mark to be able to design and manufacture a plane in due course.
> However the economies of scale and the lack of resources demand that we enter joint ventures to be able to manufacture enough numbers to keep the unit cost down. It seems the Chinese are not interested in this suggestion (purely my own assessment so could be absolutely wrong) which is why PAC is extending its arm out to our Turkish brothers as they seem to be the most likely partners for a future venture. All such assumptions are based on educated guesses and should be read as such.
> A


The Chinese don't need production partners as they can leverage domestic scale to absorb R&D overheads in relatively short order. This makes China the perfect partner to develop costly technology, but unideal for sharing long-term manufacturing work. Note the term "share". China will let you license build, but for your own market, not theirs. From the language used in the Kamra Aviation City inauguration, the PAF wants PAC to take on workshare, i.e. supply all first, second and third party users of an aircraft with subassemblies. Turkey has offered that with the Anka and T129, and I imagine it's on the table too with the TFX.

Speaking of transport helicopters and airliners, it'd have to be done along those lines. I do think it's worth asking Saab to revive the Saab 2000 and have PAC involved in co-manufacturing the airframe, but it won't be feasible without Saab or another partner involved as well.

But basically, if you want to develop AESA TRMs, stealthy materials, engines, etc for proprietary (your own) usage without wanting to eat China's workshare pie, work with China. If you want to propel your own manufacturing exports, partner with Turkey, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Ukraine, South Africa, etc. Seldom do small fry profit off the backs of giants, business partnerships are best done between peers with parity.

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## CriticalThought

So what's people's opinions about Pakistan acquiring the Russian A-100. Some notable qualities:

1. Its precursor, A-50U, has been tested in Syria against the best that USAF has to offer.
2. It has exceptional range.
3. But possibly the best feature is integration of jamming with long range radar on the same aircraft. In general, AEW&CS suffer from self-jamming. Russia seems to have solved this problem for these aircraft. Against the Rafale, A-100 will be a very potent platform. If we can pair it with an aircraft that can carry VLRAAMs, and shore up our AD with S-400, we would be a formidable foe for the Indian airforce. Thoughts?

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## araz

CriticalThought said:


> So what's people's opinions about Pakistan acquiring the Russian A-100. Some notable qualities:
> 
> 1. Its precursor, A-50U, has been tested in Syria against the best that USAF has to offer.
> 2. It has exceptional range.
> 3. But possibly the best feature is integration of jamming with long range radar on the same aircraft. In general, AEW&CS suffer from self-jamming. Russia seems to have solved this problem for these aircraft. Against the Rafale, A-100 will be a very potent platform. If we can pair it with an aircraft that can carry VLRAAMs, and shore up our AD with S-400, we would be a formidable foe for the Indian airforce. Thoughts?


Not feasible nor required nor necessary. We have enough AWACs. Integrating a new platform into our system will bring more complications and I remain unsure about the Red Bear's willingness to part with the source codes.
A

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## CriticalThought

araz said:


> Not feasible nor required nor necessary. We have enough AWACs. Integrating a new platform into our system will bring more complications and I remain unsure about the Red Bear's willingness to part with the source codes.
> A



The Red Bear's cooperation is something we can work on, but the potency of this system is absolutely needed to meet Rafale and... *ahem* _more advanced_ threats.

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## Tank131

CriticalThought said:


> So what's people's opinions about Pakistan acquiring the Russian A-100. Some notable qualities:
> 
> 1. Its precursor, A-50U, has been tested in Syria against the best that USAF has to offer.
> 2. It has exceptional range.
> 3. But possibly the best feature is integration of jamming with long range radar on the same aircraft. In general, AEW&CS suffer from self-jamming. Russia seems to have solved this problem for these aircraft. Against the Rafale, A-100 will be a very potent platform. If we can pair it with an aircraft that can carry VLRAAMs, and shore up our AD with S-400, we would be a formidable foe for the Indian airforce. Thoughts?



I dont think there is any indication that Russia would be willing to sell S-400. I think Pakistan's best hope for a long range SAM is HQ-9. Also, with Pakistan's current fleet of AWAC's and the 3 more ordered from SAAB, Pakistan will be up to 11 AWACs, far more than most others. Only the US, Russia, China, and Japan have more.

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## Falcon26

Tank131 said:


> I dont think there is any indication that Russia would be willing to sell S-400. I think Pakistan's best hope for a long range SAM is HQ-9. Also, with Pakistan's current fleet of AWAC's and the 3 more ordered from SAAB, Pakistan will be up to 11 AWACs, far more than most others. Only the US, Russia, China, and Japan have more.



What’s the rational behind such a huge AWACS fleet? To compensate for the supposed Hawkeye for the Navy? If so, do these AWACS have maritime capability

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## Dazzler

Falcon26 said:


> What’s the rational behind such a huge AWACS fleet? To compensate for the supposed Hawkeye for the Navy? If so, do these AWACS have maritime capability


Yes they do, both saab and zdk have maritime surveillance capabilities. I reckon the zdk has a slight edge here as they hold the charge of guarding the Arabian sea.

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## messiach

Partly correct. Given issues with governance at home, cost of production & stiff import regulations in chinese markets, competition is impossibility. 


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> China will let you license build, but for your own market, not theirs.

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## STRANGER BIRD

*1: Karakoram Eagle ZDK03 / 2: Saab 2000 Erieye*

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## Windjammer



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## STRANGER BIRD

*SAAB-200*

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## syed_yusuf

STRANGER BIRD said:


> *SAAB-200*


Is this a new picture of recently acquired Saab 2000

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

STRANGER BIRD said:


> *SAAB-200*


where is its radar???


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## IHK_PK

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> where is its radar???


It's only the platform plane. Without the radar.

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## khanasifm

Looks like it’s J019 which is assigned to 12 or 21 Sqn. And not the awacs plus there is new transport one which is still in its previous owner an airliner color scheme

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## HRK

STRANGER BIRD said:


> *SAAB-200*


old pic

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## Bratva

*The PAF chief also informed the gathering that in the attack on Kamra Air Base, terrorists managed to destroy one PAF SAB plane completely, and also inflicted considerable damage.

“An international organisation wanted $287 million to cover the material damage that the PAF sustained in the attack, but Pakistan’s bright, young scientists and engineers added two new fully-functioning SAB planes to our fleet at a fraction of the cost,” Aman said.

“After the attack on Kamra Air Base, not only did we set out to make the PAF better and stronger, but were also determined to guide the nations towards self-sufficiency. Now, Pakistan will make its own fighter jets.”

Stressing that there was no shortage of talent in the country, he said that people here needed a platform on which to showcase their exceptional talents to the world.*

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## araz

Bratva said:


> *The PAF chief also informed the gathering that in the attack on Kamra Air Base, terrorists managed to destroy one PAF SAB plane completely, and also inflicted considerable damage.
> 
> “An international organisation wanted $287 million to cover the material damage that the PAF sustained in the attack, but Pakistan’s bright, young scientists and engineers added two new fully-functioning SAB planes to our fleet at a fraction of the cost,” Aman said.
> 
> “After the attack on Kamra Air Base, not only did we set out to make the PAF better and stronger, but were also determined to guide the nations towards self-sufficiency. Now, Pakistan will make its own fighter jets.”
> 
> Stressing that there was no shortage of talent in the country, he said that people here needed a platform on which to showcase their exceptional talents to the world.*


The cat is out of the bag now cimpletely. I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand I want the relevant PAF staff who were lax to be punished for negligence. The other aspect which I understand was the need for secrecy as 3/4 of the Saab fleet down would have been demoralizing for the nation.

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## khanasifm

Additional 3 Saab 2k ordered were suppose to be delivered starting December 2017 ??

Also MOdp listed funds for replacement / recovery of 4 or lost aircraft pac is now certified service rebuilt provider of Saab 2k

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## khanasifm

http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/2017/05/19/pakistan-to-get-more-erieyes/

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## khanasifm

HRK said:


> old pic



Saab 2000 transport version is operational with newly formed no 21 sqn per ALAN new paf book along with c-130s

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## Safriz

khanasifm said:


> http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/2017/05/19/pakistan-to-get-more-erieyes/


the article says


They will boost the PAF’s AEW&C fleet, which is currently made up of three Erieyes serving 3 Squadron and four ZDK-03s with 4 Squadron.

Two of the PAF’s existing Erieyes were seriously damaged in a terrorist attack on PAF Base Minhas in August 2012, but have now been returned to service. Both were rebuilt by PAF personnel at PAC Kamra with support from Saab – the last aircraft returned to service in 2016.

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## IHK_PK

It means paf will operate 6 Erieye's and 4 ZDK -03's, totaling 10 AEW&C's. That will be a formidable force multiplier for PAF.

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## alphaxyz

10 aew&c are not bad, that too compared to the size of Pakistan. Another domain where Pakistan scores better than India.

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## araz

IHK_PK said:


> It means paf will operate 6 Erieye's and 4 ZDK -03's, totaling 10 AEW&C's. That will be a formidable force multiplier for PAF.


I think it means one of our Erieyes got burnt to cinders in the Kamra Attack which is what Ex PAF people like Bilal Khan777 has been saying. There has been another plane which has been bought and PAF has procured/ordered another Erieye Radar. I thinl this will eventually return the numbers to 7. 
The most inteeesting thing is the cost of the contract $120million. With PAC now known to have repaired the 2 other planes does this translate into PAC doing the integration work itself thereby saving a hell of a lot of money on labour costs. If this were to happen it would be a huge achievement for PAC.
A

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## khanasifm

IHK_PK said:


> It means paf will operate 6 Erieye's and 4 ZDK -03's, totaling 10 AEW&C's. That will be a formidable force multiplier for PAF.



Per modp even 4th one is being recovered for 130 or so million ? Not sure what it means in 2017 report

Bottomline paf will have it’s Saab 2k fleet as planned in the early phase 6 - 7 awacs plus transport before Chinese deal led to reduction in Saab 2k deal

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## Bilal Khan 777

araz said:


> The cat is out of the bag now cimpletely. I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand I want the relevant PAF staff who were lax to be punished for negligence. The other aspect which I understand was the need for secrecy as 3/4 of the Saab fleet down would have been demoralizing for the nation.



I think I told you all about this fiasco. Other than the written off bird, everything has been recovered and flying now, thanks to the brilliant work by Kamra.

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## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I think I told you all about this fiasco. Other than the written off bird, everything has been recovered and flying now, thanks to the brilliant work by Kamra.


So the ploy worked . We got you to come out of self imposed retirement and put your input in. Welcome back. Your input has been missed.
Yes I remember our debate, my relative disbelief and your conviction. Now the question is what was aCtually acquired in the process of repairing the AWAC or was it true blue Pakistani habit of making a mole hill out of a grain of sand and some panel replacements. If you can answer that it would be informative.
A

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## Falcon26

Weren’t the new SAAB Erieyes suppose to start arriving before the end of the year? What’s the status?


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## Bilal Khan 777

araz said:


> So the ploy worked . We got you to come out of self imposed retirement and put your input in. Welcome back. Your input has been missed.
> Yes I remember our debate, my relative disbelief and your conviction. Now the question is what was aCtually acquired in the process of repairing the AWAC or was it true blue Pakistani habit of making a mole hill out of a grain of sand and some panel replacements. If you can answer that it would be informative.
> A



ha ha. Yes, i could not longer take it! Okay, one aircraft written off, two aircraft damaged, port and starboard side, all vertical services, radar air intakes, and outer panels, and vertical stabilizers and outer skins, such as in any high heat damage. Detailed surveys were done by PAC, those guys are very good. Most of these repairs were done by PAF. Most structure items were manufactured locally. Techniques developed to replicate SAAB's superior manufacturing skills. Two SAAB 2000 airline birds were taken from market, also some of the requirement parts. One come in complete pieces as were required, and was used to recover one aircraft. Other 02 flew in, one was used to recover the other bird, and now is a Christmas tree for support of fleet. One complete suite was procured from SAAB. A complete flying aircraft will now be fitted locally with the complete suite. This is the complete story. Now you can plug in the holes from public releases. Doubters will remain as doubters. As ACM Sohail Aman says, it is true. Over 200 Million USD were saved from SAAB's offer. Credit goes to him for his leadership in current and previous role. First SAAB refused to help, so PAF started working on their own. Then they came crying and sold the one complete ERIEYE system for pittance. Again Credit to ACM Sohail Aman. At the end, PAF has 04 SAAB again. A slap on the face of the enemy who uses cowardly asymmetric attacks against platforms that change the ORBAT in INDOPAK or AFPAK scenario. Cheers.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> Weren’t the new SAAB Erieyes suppose to start arriving before the end of the year? What’s the status?


The first one was probably the replacement for the written-off unit - i.e. the 4th Erieye.

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## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> ha ha. Yes, i could not longer take it! Okay, one aircraft written off, two aircraft damaged, port and starboard side, all vertical services, radar intakes, and outer panels, and vertical stabilizers and out skins. Detailed surveys were done by PAC, those guys are very good. Two birds were taken from market, also all the parts. One come in complete pieces, and was used to recover one aircraft. Other 02 flew in, one was used to recover the other bird, and now is a Christmas tree for support of fleet. One complete suite was procured from SAAB. A complete flying aircraft will now be fitted locally with the complete suite. This is the complete story. Now you can plug in the holes from public releases. Doubters will remain as doubters. As ACM Sohail Aman says, it is true. Over 200 Million USD were saves from SAAB's offer. First they refused to help, so PAF started working on their own. Then they came crying and sold the one complete ERIEYE system for pittance. At the end, PAF has 04 SAAB again. A slap on the face of the enemy who uses cowardly asymmetric attacks against platforms that change the ORBAT in INDOPAK or AFPAK scenario. Cheers.


thank you. Great post. What about the 3 new ones. Do we have any part in the assembly which indicates the cost or are they being assembled and shifted to Pak.
A

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## Imran Khan

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> ha ha. Yes, i could not longer take it! Okay, one aircraft written off, two aircraft damaged, port and starboard side, all vertical services, radar intakes, and outer panels, and vertical stabilizers and out skins. Detailed surveys were done by PAC, those guys are very good. Two birds were taken from market, also all the parts. One come in complete pieces, and was used to recover one aircraft. Other 02 flew in, one was used to recover the other bird, and now is a Christmas tree for support of fleet. One complete suite was procured from SAAB. A complete flying aircraft will now be fitted locally with the complete suite. This is the complete story. Now you can plug in the holes from public releases. Doubters will remain as doubters. As ACM Sohail Aman says, it is true. Over 200 Million USD were saves from SAAB's offer. First they refused to help, so PAF started working on their own. Then they came crying and sold the one complete ERIEYE system for pittance. At the end, PAF has 04 SAAB again. A slap on the face of the enemy who uses cowardly asymmetric attacks against platforms that change the ORBAT in INDOPAK or AFPAK scenario. Cheers.


but still its boil my blood why its happen first place

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> thank you. Great post. What about the 3 new ones. Do we have any part in the assembly which indicates the cost or are they being assembled and shifted to Pak.
> A


Just posting the link for those unaware or in need of more context.

http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/2017/05/19/pakistan-to-get-more-erieyes/

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## Bilal Khan 777

Imran Khan said:


> but still its boil my blood why its happen first place



I agree. That was sheer incompetence.



araz said:


> thank you. Great post. What about the 3 new ones. Do we have any part in the assembly which indicates the cost or are they being assembled and shifted to Pak.
> A



New will come as new as contracted.

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## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I agree. That was sheer incompetence.
> 
> 
> 
> New will come as new as contracted.


Thank you. Hope you are well. Look after yourself and if there is anything I can do for you let me know please.
A

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## aziqbal

There's also rumours that ZDK-03 are to be upgraded to KJ-500 standard to
ASEA standard 

Wouldn't be a bad idea to purchase further 4 x KJ-500 units 

2 squadrons of Erieye and 2 squadron of rotodome AWACS for 4 area sectors covering all of Pakistan 

Having 1 AWACS in the air 24/7 365 in each sector while 1 under goes maintenance, 1 is in training and 1 ready to go up while 1 is on patrol

The magic 4

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## araz

aziqbal said:


> There's also rumours that ZDK-03 are to be upgraded to KJ-500 standard to
> ASEA standard
> 
> Wouldn't be a bad idea to purchase further 4 x KJ-500 units
> 
> 2 squadrons of Erieye and 2 squadron of rotodome AWACS for 4 area sectors covering all of Pakistan
> 
> Having 1 AWACS in the air 24/7 365 in each sector while 1 under goes maintenance, 1 is in training and 1 ready to go up while 1 is on patrol
> 
> The magic 4


Would this not be a case of setting priorities?. Where does one place acquisition of a further 4 KLJ500s when you have 100 odd obsolete planes to replace and new infrastructure to be put in place. The PGs are very short legged so good only for point defence, the M3/5s are getting on and rattling and the older 16s are more than 30 yrs old even if MLUAed. As always money remains an issue and the rising tensions in US Pak diatribe is palpable making the 16s themselves suspect. I look at this scenario and see talk of SUs and Js and think where is the money going to come from. If I had the reigns of power a few fat cats would be on racks being stretched and made to sign for release of billions stashed away in Swiss accounts. But the this dream will not come true. So we remain cash deprived and need to sort our priorities out. Reminds me of the time in my late twenties when short of cash and full of pride not wanting to ask from dad, I would sort the money into progressively smaller piles,ie Petrol for the car, cigarrette money and the left over for food. HaaHaa. Now the question here is what is petrol for the car and what id cigarrette money here?
A

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## fatman17

Never seen before that close ... the KJ-500's radome in close-up https://t.co/BOBQ67aqBn

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## syed zia Hassan

$1 billion deal for Swedish AWACS ...Is it possible to locate the explosive land mines ..in our Border Area with help of this technology what analyst says?


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## Ultima Thule

syed zia Hassan said:


> $1 billion deal for Swedish AWACS ...Is it possible to locate the explosive land mines ..in our Border Area with help of this technology what analyst says?


What are talking about AWACS for locating land explosive mines AWACS has only one purpose to detect enemy jets at long ranges and do research before you posting @syed zia Hassan


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## Fledgingwings

I wonder if SAAB fulfills the needs for aerial recon having a big country like india both as a neighbour and a threat.


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## Liquidmetal

I was under the impression that the PAF had ordered the Saab Globaleye solution, not the Erieye. Is there an update on this?


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## khanasifm

Synthetic aperture radar and ground penetrating radar for mines 

AFM articles on Greek Saab awacs stated ground mode were suppressed due to inter forces politics and other reasons but are available may be now in global hawk fully available 

Basically jstar


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## syed zia Hassan

pakistanipower said:


> What are talking about AWACS for locating land explosive mines AWACS has only one purpose to detect enemy jets at long ranges and do research before you posting @syed zia Hassan


Yes Dear I known that the main


pakistanipower said:


> What are talking about AWACS for locating land explosive mines AWACS has only one purpose to detect enemy jets at long ranges and do research before you posting @syed zia Hassan



Yes I known that ...I ask question is it possible to used it for that .... (explosive device detector) think .after all how many missiles bombs Even bullets every thing on board in a Fighter Air Crafts park at Air Field from 1000 Km Away. ..AWACS... I ask can we convert or used this technology for this work ...?


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## Ultima Thule

syed zia Hassan said:


> Yes Dear I known that the main
> 
> 
> Yes I known that ...I ask question is it possible to used it for that .... (explosive device detector) think .after all how many missiles bombs Even bullets every thing on board in a Fighter Air Crafts park at Air Field from 1000 Km Away. ..AWACS... I ask can we convert or used this technology for this work ...?


How can AWACS detect land mines please explain me Its need metal detectors or ground penetration radars which latest and immature technology currently so your idea for detecting land mines from AWACS is truly impossible, stupid and crap


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## Path-Finder

pakistanipower said:


> How can AWACS detect land mines please explain me Its need metal detectors or ground penetration radars which latest and immature technology currently so your idea for detecting land mines from AWACS is truly impossible, stupid and crap


oh yara don't be too harsh on the guy.



syed zia Hassan said:


> $1 billion deal for Swedish AWACS ...Is it possible to locate the explosive land mines ..in our Border Area with help of this technology what analyst says?



what you are talking about is Synthetic Aperture Radar(SAR) and not AWAC's

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## Ultima Thule

Path-Finder said:


> oh yara don't be too harsh on the guy.
> 
> 
> 
> what you are talking about is Synthetic Aperture Radar(SAR) and not AWAC's


But Synthetic Aperture Radar ( SAR) can't detect underground landmines also


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## syed zia Hassan

pakistanipower said:


> How can AWACS detect land mines please explain me Its need metal detectors or ground penetration radars which latest and immature technology currently so your idea for detecting land mines from AWACS is truly impossible, stupid and crap


You don’t know about the U.S Air Force new Deployment in AWACS…Please stay for few days and see you self ...



syed zia Hassan said:


> You don’t know about the U.S Air Force new Deployment in AWACS…Please stay for few days and see you self ...


After few days lets see who is hahahahahah


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## Ultima Thule

syed zia Hassan said:


> You don’t know about the U.S Air Force new Deployment in AWACS…Please stay for few days and see you self ...
> 
> 
> After few days lets see who is hahahahahah


Kid you're knows nothing about AWACS and if you have information of US AF AWACS for that capability to detect landmines from the AWACS please share with us


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## SQ8

syed zia Hassan said:


> You don’t know about the U.S Air Force new Deployment in AWACS…Please stay for few days and see you self ...
> 
> 
> After few days lets see who is hahahahahah


Hahahhahaahha
There.. I just laughed at you.
Now, in seriousness 
You are confusing airborne based Lidar type mine detection from a low flying HELICOPTER with AWACS.

Its probabe you read something somewhere or saw a half youtube video and your mind remembered sketchy details and has you convinced you saw what you claim.

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## Ultima Thule

Oscar said:


> Hahahhahaahha
> There.. I just laughed at you.
> Now, in seriousness
> You are confusing airborne based Lidar type mine detection from a low flying HELICOPTER with AWACS.
> 
> Its probabe you read something somewhere or saw a half youtube video and your mind remembered sketchy details and has you convinced you saw what you claim.


Sir @syed zia Hassan don't knows what he talking about


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## HRK

10-025 (spotted *March 23, 2016*)






10-040 (*date not confirm, but in not more than 1-2 years old*)





11-045 (spotted *August 14, 2017*)





10-049 (spotted *August 12, 2017*)

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## araz

HRK said:


> 10-025 (spotted *March 23, 2016*)
> View attachment 450086
> 
> 
> 10-040 (*date not confirm, but in not more than 1-2 years old*)
> View attachment 450098
> 
> 
> 11-045 (spotted *August 14, 2017*)
> View attachment 450085
> 
> 
> 10-049 (spotted *August 12, 2017*)
> View attachment 450087


So we are back to full strength. Really nice to see and thanks to the hard working staff and team at PAC.
A

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## Safriz

HRK said:


> 10-025 (spotted *March 23, 2016*)
> View attachment 450086
> 
> 
> 10-040 (*date not confirm, but in not more than 1-2 years old*)
> View attachment 450098
> 
> 
> 11-045 (spotted *August 14, 2017*)
> View attachment 450085
> 
> 
> 10-049 (spotted *August 12, 2017*)
> View attachment 450087


So thats all 4 accounted for.
The 10-025 was the one i know for sure was most damaged by terrorist attack.

So no we got 4 Erieye. 4 ZDK-03.

The longest length of Pakistan is about 1800 Km and at widest 1100 Km. Average width of the country is about the same as these AWACS radar range.
For 100% coverage of all Pakistani airspace , at any time 3 of these need to be in the air..

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## Gryphon

HRK said:


> 10-025 (spotted *March 23, 2016*)
> View attachment 450086
> 
> 
> 10-040 (*date not confirm, but in not more than 1-2 years old*)
> View attachment 450098
> 
> 
> 11-045 (spotted *August 14, 2017*)
> View attachment 450085
> 
> 
> 10-049 (spotted *August 12, 2017*)
> View attachment 450087



So, the w/o unit was replaced by J-029 with the radar system ordered in FY 2015-2016 for USD 130 million.
Which one was destroyed: 10-049 or 11-045 ???



شاھین میزایل said:


> So thats all 4 accounted for.
> The 10-025 was the one i know for sure was most damaged by terrorist attack.
> 
> So no we got 4 Erieye. 4 ZDK-03.
> 
> The longest length of Pakistan is about 1800 Km and at widest 1100 Km. Average width of the country is about the same as these AWACS radar range.
> For 100% coverage of all Pakistani airspace , at any time 3 of these need to be in the air..



10-025 was repaired. The w/o unit was 10-049 or 11-045.

Not sure why only 3 new Saab 2000 Erieye have been ordered. Maybe, J-019 will be converted as well.

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## HRK

Gryphon said:


> Which one was destroyed: 10-049 or 11-045 ???


I think it was *11*-045 (previously *10*-045)




http://www.scramble.nl/index.php?option=com_mildb&view=search

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## khanasifm

No news yet on delivery of 3 new Saab 2k which were ordered ? 

bottomline looks like paf is going for original plan to have 7 Saab 2k for awacs plus 1 or 2 transport which provides conversion and transport duties plus crew conversion on Saab 

Per paf history now Saab rebuild is also part of mirage factory there are pictures in AFM ( last article on pac mirages) where mirage rebuild hanger now also houses Saab rebuilt / depot level service

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## HRK

khanasifm said:


> there are pictures in AFM ( last article on pac mirages) where mirage rebuild hanger now also houses Saab rebuilt / depot level service


plz share ...

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## syed_yusuf

Paf initial requirement was for 6 aewcs plus 1 more from Saab . It seems requirements are enhancement. Paf went for 4 Chinese and 4 Saab aewcs plus 3 more. 

A massive aew fleet. 

No doubt an enhanced one. Does it mean Saab can also communicate with all other fighters of paf including f16

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## syed zia Hassan

thanks


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Great Timely purchase of Additional 3 Awacs from Sweeden 
Fantastic move - Thank you sweeden


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## fatman17




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## Path-Finder

Pakistan is not getting Global Eye but just a simple AWAC. Why is a big question.


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## IHK_PK

I don't think it's the monetary reasons involved in not going for the global eye rather it could be the reluctance of the west to share their most cutting edge technologies to china's friend Pakistan. 
So we take what was offered.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

1. Thus far the Erieye ER has only been qualified on the Bombardier Global 6000, _*not *_the Saab 2000. If the PAF were to select the Erieye ER - with integration to the Saab 2000 - it'd likely have to pay the extra cost of doing so (i.e. integration work, tests, certification, etc).

2. The Erieye ER would be costlier - it necessitates new support infrastructure. The UAE paid $238 m for each Erieye ER, while the PAF got the additional three Erieye for around $130 m each (thanks to the fact that it already has the training, logistics and maintenance infrastructure already in place for the Erieye).

3. Prior to the 2005 Earthquake, the PAF had intended to build a fleet of 6 Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C.

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## AMG_12

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 1. Thus far the Erieye ER has only been qualified on the Bombardier Global 6000, _*not *_the Saab 2000. If the PAF were to select the Erieye ER - with integration to the Saab 2000 - it'd likely have to pay the extra cost of doing so (i.e. integration work, tests, certification, etc).
> 
> 2. The Erieye ER would be costlier - it necessitates new support infrastructure. The UAE paid $238 m for each Erieye ER, while the PAF got the additional three Erieye for around $130 m each (thanks to the fact that it already has the training, logistics and maintenance infrastructure already in place for the Erieye).
> 
> 3. Prior to the 2005 Earthquake, the PAF had intended to build a fleet of 6 Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C.


What's the bulge under PAF SAAB 2K AEW&C? It didn't appear under the earlier models.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 1. Thus far the Erieye ER has only been qualified on the Bombardier Global 6000, _*not *_the Saab 2000. If the PAF were to select the Erieye ER - with integration to the Saab 2000 - it'd likely have to pay the extra cost of doing so (i.e. integration work, tests, certification, etc).
> 
> 2. The Erieye ER would be costlier - it necessitates new support infrastructure. The UAE paid $238 m for each Erieye ER, while the PAF got the additional three Erieye for around $130 m each (thanks to the fact that it already has the training, logistics and maintenance infrastructure already in place for the Erieye).
> 
> 3. Prior to the 2005 Earthquake, the PAF had intended to build a fleet of 6 Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C.



In terms of maritime capabilities, how would the Eriye GlobalEye compared to the P-3C Orions and the ATR-72 MPA.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Game.Invade said:


> What's the bulge under PAF SAAB 2K AEW&C? It didn't appear under the earlier models.


Not known. Possibly just a new communication/radio terminal, EO/IR pod or small SAR.



Falcon26 said:


> In terms of maritime capabilities, how would the Eriye GlobalEye compared to the P-3C Orions and the ATR-72 MPA.


The GlobalEye is a superb all-round ISR asset - gets you AEW&C with over-the-horizon coverage, a long-range maritime surveillance radar in the nose and SAR for surface imaging. Even though Pakistan can't get the GlobalEye package in one aircraft, it is working towards bringing all of its pieces through multiple platforms. You have the PAF ZDK03 and Erieye AEW&C (the expanded fleet might see 1~2 at sea) while the PN is buying the Leonardo Seaspray 7300 X-band AESA radar (same as the GlobalEye), Elettronica ESM, etc for the ATR-72 MPA. The PRSS-1 will bring a SAR + EO in low-earth orbit while an expanded UAV fleet (via Project Azm) can bring SAR for real-time.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not known. Possibly just a new communication/radio terminal, EO/IR pod or small SAR.
> 
> 
> The GlobalEye is a superb all-round ISR asset - gets you AEW&C with over-the-horizon coverage, a long-range maritime surveillance radar in the nose and SAR for surface imaging. Even though Pakistan can't get the GlobalEye package in one aircraft, it is working towards bringing all of its pieces through multiple platforms. You have the PAF ZDK03 and Erieye AEW&C (the expanded fleet might see 1~2 at sea) while the PN is buying the Leonardo Seaspray 7300 X-band AESA radar (same as the GlobalEye), Elettronica ESM, etc for the ATR-72 MPA. The PRSS-1 will bring a SAR + EO in low-earth orbit while an expanded UAV fleet (via Project Azm) can bring SAR for real-time.



As always, thanks for the very detailed response.

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## Arsalan

Game.Invade said:


> What's the bulge under PAF SAAB 2K AEW&C? It didn't appear under the earlier models.




THIS?






This is a GLOBAL EYE and not our ERIEYE! 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not known. Possibly just a new communication/radio terminal, EO/IR pod or small SAR.

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## HRK

Arsalan said:


> THIS?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a GLOBAL EYE and not our ERIEYE!


We have also attached some sort of instrument under the fuselage of our SAAB-2000 you can observe the bulge under air frames

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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> We have also attached some instrument under the fuselage of our SAAB-2000 ypu can observe the bulge under those air frames
> View attachment 452293
> View attachment 452295



Maybe later you can add ASELPOD to the aircraft as well!


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## HRK

Path-Finder said:


> Maybe later you can add ASELPOD to the aircraft as well!


Why ASELPOD is a targeting pod ...??
one can only speculate for some sort of EO pod in future like Star SAFIRE but again ASELPOD targeting pod I don't think it would have its role with SAAB-2000

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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> Why ASELPOD is a targeting pod ...??
> one can only speculate for some sort of EO pod in future like Star SAFIRE but again ASELPOD targeting pod I don't think it would have its role with SAAB-2000



The reason was if you add a traditional EO unit you will have make the necessary mods to the structure of the aircraft. A pod will be attached on the outside of the aircraft if the structure premisses, ASELPOD is capable of doing surveillance among targeting as well. 

just taking a stab in the dark!


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## Readerdefence

HRK said:


> We have also attached some sort of instrument under the fuselage of our SAAB-2000 you can observe the bulge under air frames
> View attachment 452293
> View attachment 452295


Hi in the first picture after the wings can that be flair dispenser or some kind of safety measures against the hostile missiles 
Thx


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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> Yes ASELPOD can, but you require a hardpoint under the Saab 2000.



Hardpoint is surely easier than the other route.


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## syed zia Hassan

I like that


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## HRK

Readerdefence said:


> Hi in the first picture after the wings can that be flair dispenser or some kind of safety measures against the hostile missiles
> Thx


no idea ....

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## Dazzler

Housing for SAR sensors

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## Ahmet Pasha

Personally I think now PAF should pay a little more attention to EW warfare aircraft.

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## razgriz19

Readerdefence said:


> Hi in the first picture after the wings can that be flair dispenser or some kind of safety measures against the hostile missiles
> Thx


Just landing lights.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> We have also attached some sort of instrument under the fuselage of our SAAB-2000 you can observe the bulge under air frames
> View attachment 452293
> View attachment 452295


More and more I'm thinking it's a radio terminal for communicating with the ground. It could be a station for EO/IR (see Global Eye, it has a similar hardpoint for EO/IR).

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## Tps43

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> More and more I'm thinking it's a radio terminal for communicating with the ground. It could be a station for EO/IR (see Global Eye, it has a similar hardpoint for EO/IR).


Something related to ground station flights which work with AWACS ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

tps77 said:


> Something related to ground station flights which work with AWACS ?


Yep. IIRC in a promotional song the PAF showed a SOF operator speaking to an AEW&C, after which an AEW&C directed an F-16 to a target for an LGB strike. Could be that...

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## khanasifm

No news of the three new Saab ordered ? They were expecting Delivery to start on 2017 Dec


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> No news of the three new Saab ordered ? They were expecting Delivery to start on 2017 Dec


One of those 3 is probably the replacement for the written-off one.


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## DJ_Viper

Arsalan said:


> THIS?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a GLOBAL EYE and not our ERIEYE!



In role-specific newer jets, SAR and MARs are put on the belly for enhanced ocean and ground imaging. It works much better and clearer than picturing from above the air-frame. You could also use Sigint equipment or other radars there for even UAV / Missile guidance and tracking. As the computer tech is becoming smaller and smaller, current generation of AEWC planes can do what multiple airborne jets would do 20 years ago.



HRK said:


> We have also attached some sort of instrument under the fuselage of our SAAB-2000 you can observe the bulge under air frames
> View attachment 452293
> View attachment 452295



That's SigInt pod.

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## Gryphon

khanasifm said:


> No news of the three new Saab ordered ? They were expecting Delivery to start on 2017 Dec



So far, contract for only one Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C has been signed in May 2017 (PAF will order two more). It is unlikely that deliveries will start in just 7 months.



_On 15 May, Saab released a statement that it had signed a contract with an undisclosed customer in the airborne early warning & control segment valued at SEK1.35 billion ($155 million). It said that deliveries would run from 2017 to 2020, with the order to be booked within the next six months.

"The effectiveness of the contract is subject to the fulfillment of certain conditions, among others, financial conditions," said Saab. "All conditions are expected to be fulfilled within the coming 6 months. The industry’s nature is such that due to circumstances concerning the product and customer, further information about the customer will not be announced."
_
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...btain-three-more-saab-2000-aewc-aircr-437732/


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## khanasifm

http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/2017/05/19/pakistan-to-get-more-erieyes/


The Pakistan Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, told AFM in late April that the air arm is set to receive three new Saab 2000 Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. The first will be delivered in December and the remaining pair will arrive next year.


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## alphapak

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> One of those 3 is probably the replacement for the written-off one.



I thought PAF recovered all the damaged AWACS and have 4 Swedish awacs
or have they got 3?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

alphapak said:


> I thought PAF recovered all the damaged AWACS and have 4 Swedish awacs
> or have they got 3?


One was written-off entirely, leaving three (after repairs) serviceable aircraft.

The 4th one - aka the "recovered" AEW&C - seems to be one of three new Erieye AEW&C the PAF ordered in 2016-2017. The first of these three new AEW&C was to be delivered in late 2017. I think this one was delivered and is basically the 4th recovered Erieye AEW&C.


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## alphapak

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> One was written-off entirely, leaving three (after repairs) serviceable aircraft.
> 
> The 4th one - aka the "recovered" AEW&C - seems to be one of three new Erieye AEW&C the PAF ordered in 2016-2017. The first of these three new AEW&C was to be delivered in late 2017. I think this one was delivered and is basically the 4th recovered Erieye AEW&C.



Thanks for the reply, so Pak will have 6 after this order and 4 Chinese
awacs.


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> One was written-off entirely, leaving three (after repairs) serviceable aircraft.
> 
> The 4th one - aka the "recovered" AEW&C - seems to be one of three new Erieye AEW&C the PAF ordered in 2016-2017. The first of these three new AEW&C was to be delivered in late 2017. I think this one was delivered and is basically the 4th recovered Erieye AEW&C.


One would imagine they would want serviceability at a 100% for these assets, which brings an interesting look into how much coverage in both peacetime and wartime is actually planned.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

alphapak said:


> Thanks for the reply, so Pak will have 6 after this order and 4 Chinese
> awacs.


Yup.



Oscar said:


> One would imagine they would want serviceability at a 100% for these assets, which brings an interesting look into how much coverage in both peacetime and wartime is actually planned.


Indeed. I suspect the Erieye AEW&C might even be stationed at SAC to support the No. 5 Sqn (F-16 Block-52) and maritime operations generally (augmenting the ZDK03). If the MILGEMs are signed and equipped with Western AShM, the Erieye AEW&C might also support those too.


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## Tps43

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yup.
> 
> 
> Indeed. I suspect the Erieye AEW&C might even be stationed at SAC to support the No. 5 Sqn (F-16 Block-52) and maritime operations generally (augmenting the ZDK03). If the MILGEMs are signed and equipped with Western AShM, the Erieye AEW&C might also support those too.


If u remember I told u some time that there can a flight of Awacs in Western SOC . Because rumors were strong .

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## Gryphon

alphapak said:


> so Pak will have 6 after this order and 4 Chinese
> awacs.



PAF will have 7 Saab 2000 AEW&C.

One Erieye suite was ordered in FY 2015-2016 to recover the w/o unit (10-045). Four Saab 2000 AEW&C were flying as of August 2017, with @Bilal Khan 777 describing the recovery of 1x destroyed & 2x damaged aircraft as


_one aircraft written off, two aircraft damaged, port and starboard side, all vertical services, radar air intakes, and outer panels, and vertical stabilizers and outer skins, such as in any high heat damage. Detailed surveys were done by PAC, those guys are very good. Most of these repairs were done by PAF. Most structure items were manufactured locally. Techniques developed to replicate SAAB's superior manufacturing skills. Two SAAB 2000 airline birds were taken from market, also some of the requirement parts. One come in complete pieces as were required, and was used to recover one aircraft. Other 02 flew in, one was used to recover the other bird, and now is a Christmas tree for support of fleet. One complete suite was procured from SAAB. A complete flying aircraft will now be fitted locally with the complete suite. This is the complete story. Now you can plug in the holes from public releases. Doubters will remain as doubters. As ACM Sohail Aman says, it is true. Over 200 Million USD were saved from SAAB's offer. Credit goes to him for his leadership in current and previous role. First SAAB refused to help, so PAF started working on their own. Then they came crying and sold the one complete ERIEYE system for pittance. Again Credit to ACM Sohail Aman. At the end, PAF has 04 SAAB again. A slap on the face of the enemy who uses cowardly asymmetric attacks against platforms that change the ORBAT in INDOPAK or AFPAK scenario._
_
_
And, thanks to @HRK for the pics.

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## araz

Gryphon said:


> PAF will have 7 Saab 2000 AEW&C.
> 
> One Erieye suite was ordered in FY 2015-2016 to recover the w/o unit (10-045). Four Saab 2000 AEW&C were flying as of August 2017, with @Bilal Khan 777 describing the recovery of 1x destroyed & 2x damaged aircraft as
> 
> 
> _one aircraft written off, two aircraft damaged, port and starboard side, all vertical services, radar air intakes, and outer panels, and vertical stabilizers and outer skins, such as in any high heat damage. Detailed surveys were done by PAC, those guys are very good. Most of these repairs were done by PAF. Most structure items were manufactured locally. Techniques developed to replicate SAAB's superior manufacturing skills. Two SAAB 2000 airline birds were taken from market, also some of the requirement parts. One come in complete pieces as were required, and was used to recover one aircraft. Other 02 flew in, one was used to recover the other bird, and now is a Christmas tree for support of fleet. One complete suite was procured from SAAB. A complete flying aircraft will now be fitted locally with the complete suite. This is the complete story. Now you can plug in the holes from public releases. Doubters will remain as doubters. As ACM Sohail Aman says, it is true. Over 200 Million USD were saved from SAAB's offer. Credit goes to him for his leadership in current and previous role. First SAAB refused to help, so PAF started working on their own. Then they came crying and sold the one complete ERIEYE system for pittance. Again Credit to ACM Sohail Aman. At the end, PAF has 04 SAAB again. A slap on the face of the enemy who uses cowardly asymmetric attacks against platforms that change the ORBAT in INDOPAK or AFPAK scenario.
> 
> _
> And, thanks to @HRK for the pics.


I tend to agree with you. 4 platforms are now up and running. The current order is for 3 new units making a total of 7.
A

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## Tank131

Gryphon said:


> PAF will have 7 Saab 2000 AEW&C.
> 
> One Erieye suite was ordered in FY 2015-2016 to recover the w/o unit (10-045). Four Saab 2000 AEW&C were flying as of August 2017, with @Bilal Khan 777 describing the recovery of 1x destroyed & 2x damaged aircraft as
> 
> 
> _one aircraft written off, two aircraft damaged, port and starboard side, all vertical services, radar air intakes, and outer panels, and vertical stabilizers and outer skins, such as in any high heat damage. Detailed surveys were done by PAC, those guys are very good. Most of these repairs were done by PAF. Most structure items were manufactured locally. Techniques developed to replicate SAAB's superior manufacturing skills. Two SAAB 2000 airline birds were taken from market, also some of the requirement parts. One come in complete pieces as were required, and was used to recover one aircraft. Other 02 flew in, one was used to recover the other bird, and now is a Christmas tree for support of fleet. One complete suite was procured from SAAB. A complete flying aircraft will now be fitted locally with the complete suite. This is the complete story. Now you can plug in the holes from public releases. Doubters will remain as doubters. As ACM Sohail Aman says, it is true. Over 200 Million USD were saved from SAAB's offer. Credit goes to him for his leadership in current and previous role. First SAAB refused to help, so PAF started working on their own. Then they came crying and sold the one complete ERIEYE system for pittance. Again Credit to ACM Sohail Aman. At the end, PAF has 04 SAAB again. A slap on the face of the enemy who uses cowardly asymmetric attacks against platforms that change the ORBAT in INDOPAK or AFPAK scenario.
> 
> _
> And, thanks to @HRK for the pics.



I wonder if PAF had to work on the actual radar itself. The aircraft repair is impressive no doubt but how much if anything did PAF learn in the replication and construction of the radar. If they learned anything it will be a boon for local industry in the technical knowhow of manufacturing one the worlds premiere AESA radars. I hope the knowledge gained from this orocess can be put to good use by establishing/expanding a foundation for radar R&D and component design and manufacturing in the country.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> I wonder if PAF had to work on the actual radar itself. The aircraft repair is impressive no doubt but how much if anything did PAF learn in the replication and construction of the radar. If they learned anything it will be a boon for local industry in the technical knowhow of manufacturing one the worlds premiere AESA radars. I hope the knowledge gained from this orocess can be put to good use by establishing/expanding a foundation for radar R&D and component design and manufacturing in the country.


If anything the PAF might have gained depot-level MRO for the Erieye radar. Basically, they'll know how to repair it provided they acquire the necessary parts from Sweden. Pakistan has no native electronics manufacturing base, so I don't expect any replication unless there's a mini-FAB there we don't know about.

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## MiG-35-BD

If i remember correctly, there was SOME fabrication set up by PAC. There was news even that PAC would make smartphones when on idle. Wonder what happened to that. I remember back in 2012-2013 I was excited enough to approach PAC to buy the smartphones in bulk. I even had customers lined up.

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## TsAr

pla-mkii said:


> If i remember correctly, there was SOME fabrication set up by PAC. There was news even that PAC would make smartphones when on idle. Wonder what happened to that. I remember back in 2012-2013 I was excited enough to approach PAC to buy the smartphones in bulk. I even had customers lined up.


They did manufacture some Tabs....

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## Armchair-General

Yeah whatever happened to those tablets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAC-PAD_Takhti_7
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAC-PAD_1
Damn the RAM and storage on these is super low though.

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## GriffinsRule

Figured I would share something I learned about Embraer-145 in its role as an AWAC&S. People on the forums sometimes have criticized the choice of a turboprop vs a turbofan platform for PAF. 

However, the interesting thing of note is that on a patrol mission, the EMB-145 actually flies around 27,000ft and has to reduce it speed to around 170kts. In this profile it is able to attain a maximum range of 1,500nm (2,500kms) and an endurance of 8hrs.

Compare that to Saab 2000, where its patrol speed is 160kts, with a range of 2,000nm and an endurance of 9.5 hrs. 

The pro for a turbofan is of course that it would reach the designated area faster whereas a turboprop being more fuel efficient, it leads to lower operating costs per hour. I think PAF in that regard made a sound decision.

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## Dazzler

Repost, 

Two of the best CNCs our armed forces had, working together.

Coordination is the key, and it shows in this pic at least.

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## aziqbal

PAF should seriously consider KJ500


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## nomi007

aziqbal said:


> PAF should seriously consider KJ500


ok sir


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## araz

aziqbal said:


> PAF should seriously consider KJ500


I think although you are right but at the moment things might be fiscally problematic. PAF needs now to integrate the newer Erieyes arriving in ?2019-20. I suspect simultaneous evaluation will continue however if upgrades were not part of the original contract the Chinese will make it difficult for us financially to upgrade instead wanting us to upgrade to a newer platform as a whole. I think( and this remains purely my own thought) this maybe the reason for not seeing the upgrade materialize and further orders of Erieyes. However 2-3 yrs is enough for a supplier to sweat out with their unsold product. Once it happens PAF might negotiate and test out and get a more amicable deal.
My 2 paisas worth.
A


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## aziqbal

Well in terms of AWACS the Erieye at Kamra covers Northern/Eastern Command 

The ZDK-03 at Masroor covers the Southern Command 

Extra Erieye units will either supplement Northern Command or be completely dedicated to Eastern Command

That leaves Western Command for KJ500 or they can be switched to Eastern border 

For AWACS usually one bird is on patrol, one on training, one under maintenance and one ready to take off, 4 is the magic number 

Adding 4 x KJ500 would be huge lift for overall coverage covering Pakistan on all fronts, 4 x ZDK-03, 4 x KJ500 and 7 maybe 8 x Erieye 

Also wasn’t ZDK-03 in China for testing new systems, good compliment with ZDK-03 


Satellite photo just confirmed last week 47th regiment in China has KJ500 total number is now close to 16 they are really happy with this AWACS

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## Deino

Not really an EW or AEW but since I do not know where to post ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/979780117412147201

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## khanasifm

aziqbal said:


> Well in terms of AWACS the Erieye at Kamra covers Northern/Eastern Command
> 
> The ZDK-03 at Masroor covers the Southern Command
> 
> Extra Erieye units will either supplement Northern Command or be completely dedicated to Eastern Command
> 
> That leaves Western Command for KJ500 or they can be switched to Eastern border
> 
> For AWACS usually one bird is on patrol, one on training, one under maintenance and one ready to take off, 4 is the magic number
> 
> Adding 4 x KJ500 would be huge lift for overall coverage covering Pakistan on all fronts, 4 x ZDK-03, 4 x KJ500 and 7 maybe 8 x Erieye
> 
> Also wasn’t ZDK-03 in China for testing new systems, good compliment with ZDK-03
> 
> 
> Satellite photo just confirmed last week 47th regiment in China has KJ500 total number is now close to 16 they are really happy with this AWACS



The range of one Erie stationed in air covers whole north and central Punjab another one full central punjab and in south will cover south pak plus out to see 2-300 Miles 

A fleet of 12 awacs is more than enough for pak needs plus for Greece country example from Saab a fleet of 3 awacs can give one full month 24 x 7 station time for Greece 


No one is flying awacs 24x7 unless war is on or threat is

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## Gomig-21

Deino said:


> Not really an EW or AEW but since I do not know where to post ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/979780117412147201



2 of them converted to ASW platforms. Looks good.


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## HRK

Deino said:


> since I do not know where to post ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/979780117412147201


we have a dedicated thread for Pakistan Naval Aviation 
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-naval-aviation-updated.97869/page-46


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## blinder

Delivered on 27 April was Saab 2000 #024, probably arrived 28th. 
Formerly SE-LTX from Braathens Regional.
I do not know what configuration it has/will have


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## Taha Samad

Found this on a facebook page:






*
Summary based on available info::*

_AEW&C: _
025*, 040, 045* (Active, * means repaired)
049(Probably Destroyed/Written Off)

_Transport:_
019, 024, 026, 029(3 out of these 4 will probably be converted to AEW&C).

-----------------------------------

*024* (28 Apr, 2018):



*025*:




*026*(Acquired sometime in 2017-2018):



*029*(Acquired in 2016):



*040*(lone survivor back in 2015-2016):





*045*(circle indicates the area with extensive repairs)



*049* No recent pictures, so probably the one that got written off. There is one on airliners.net but its does not show registration at all. So probably the photographer mis-read or mis-reported the registration. I could not find any other picture to indicate 049 is active.

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## HRK

Taha Samad said:


> Found this on a facebook page:
> 
> View attachment 472577


plz post FB video


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## Taha Samad

HRK said:


> plz post FB video



Here is the direct link.

I am not able to embed properly can any admin take care of this from the above link.





__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## haroonn

Thanks for the detailed info. I agree with your analysis.



Taha Samad said:


> Found this on a facebook page:
> 
> View attachment 472577
> 
> *
> Summary based on available info::*
> 
> _AEW&C: _
> 025*, 040, 045* (Active, * means repaired)
> 049(Probably Destroyed/Written Off)
> 
> _Transport:_
> 019, 024, 026, 029(3 out of these 4 will probably be converted to AEW&C).
> 
> -----------------------------------


----------



## Safriz

ZDK-03 over Masroor base Karachi

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## Zarvan

Taha Samad said:


> Here is the direct link.
> 
> I am not able to embed properly can any admin take care of this from the above link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/


All 4 SAAB are in action and no one was written off


----------



## Taha Samad

Zarvan said:


> All 4 SAAB are in action and no one was written off



I would like to believe that but there is no compelling evidence to prove that 4th one was not written off. I could only find one recent picture labelled 049; but even that does not show the tail number. If you have other evidence please share.


----------



## khanasifm

Zarvan said:


> All 4 SAAB are in action and no one was written off



AFM mirage article it states one was damaged beyond repair 
plus official statement from secretary defence to the parliament 

End of story

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## Safriz

khanasifm said:


> AFM mirage article it states one was damaged beyond repair
> plus official statement from secretary defence to the parliament
> 
> End of story


yeah and those damaged were later repaired and put back into service. Update yourself.



HRK said:


> plz post FB video


I remember you posting pics of all 4 SAAB erieye with serial numbers. That was after the repairs... Can you do that again?

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## HRK

شاھین میزایل said:


> yeah and those damaged were later repaired and put back into service. Update yourself.
> 
> 
> I remember you posting pics of all 4 SAAB erieye with serial numbers. That was after the repairs... Can you do that again?


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...control-aircrafts.1284/page-331#post-10201667

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## Safriz

HRK said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...control-aircrafts.1284/page-331#post-10201667


So thats all four accounted for and people still arguing that some are out of service.


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## Mrc

شاھین میزایل said:


> So thats all four accounted for and people still arguing that some are out of service.





May be there was a fifth one... or may be bananas can grow on orange trees


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## Imran Khan

شاھین میزایل said:


> So thats all four accounted for and people still arguing that some are out of service.


yeah people have issue with 0-49 pic sir . you can not find tail number or anything of 049 till today .


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## Safriz

Imran Khan said:


> yeah people have issue with 0-49 pic sir . you can not find tail number or anything of 049 till today .


049 appeared in military exercises.


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## Imran Khan

شاھین میزایل said:


> 049 appeared in military exercises.


no its not sir 

please show us and 1000000 thanks in advance

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## Taha Samad

Here on PDF have a habit reading less and posting more. 

I ALREADY mentioned this single picture labelled as 049 on airliner.net in my last post. 

This particular picture does not show the tail number at all. So in all probability it was mistake by photographer. 

There is NO OTHER evidence to suggest 049 is active.

So 049 is GONE unless someone can show some concrete evidence to prove otherwise.

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## Imran Khan

Taha Samad said:


> Here on PDF have a habit reading less and posting more.
> 
> I ALREADY mentioned this single picture labelled as 049 on airliner.net in my last post.
> 
> This particular picture does not show the tail number at all. So in all probability it was mistake by photographer.
> 
> There is NO OTHER evidence to suggest 049 is active.
> 
> So 049 is GONE unless someone can show some concrete evidence to prove otherwise.


bhai saab photographer se mistake ho sakti hai . per yahan log itny bholy nhi wo janty hain 049 27 ramzan ko shaheed ho gya tha


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## Shabi1

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It&#39;s rumored that CETC 14th Insti developed a new radar featuring L-band anti-stealth capability for KJ-500 to replace the original one developed by 38th Insti. To extend the range of such a powerful platform, the IFR probe was fitted on. <a href="https://t.co/rdzg2dxm1j">https://t.co/rdzg2dxm1j</a></p>&mdash; dafeng cao (@xinfengcao) <a href="

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/998169459348180992">May 20, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>






What are the operational differences between the KJ-500 and Karakoram Eagle AWACs.

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## Readerdefence

Hi I believe triangular array radar cross section in added feature in kj500
Thank you 

*ZDK-03*: A variant designed specifically for export to the Pakistan Air Force. Consists of a Chinese AESA radar mounted on the Y-8F600 platform.[13] The radar is reported to have a greater range than that of the PAF's Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C radar[14] and the aircraft incorporates open architecture electronics to make future upgrades easier to implement.[15] Delivery of the first aircraft to the Pakistan Air Force was expected by the end of 2010.[14] The first aircraft was reported to have been delivered in November 2011 by Pakistani media.
*ZDK-06*: An export-oriented airborne warning and control system featuring the JY-06 active electronically scanned array and Pulse-Doppler radar.[16]
*KJ-500*: An airborne warning and control system featuring three active electronically scanned array radars arranged in a triangular array, with additional electronic intelligence antennae and further radar antennae on its fuselage to provide 360-degree coverage.

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## razgriz19

One was completely destroyed. One was severely damaged and the other had minor damage. Two were repaired, and that brings the total to 3 with another one in transport config


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## blinder

Any news on #024 yet? Is that J024 by now or 18-024?

Meanwhile, #038 formerly SE-MFF, was cancelled 22 May 2018 as being exported to Pakistan.
It was at Islamabad calling PAF038 8 June.


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## MIRauf

The info of ZDK-03 radar being AESA is from wiki, please take it lightly as it is not correct. The first Three ZDK-03 were delivered long before KJ-500 (AESA version ) came out. The rumor was that 4th one may had been delayed to accommodate the AESA of KJ-500, however there is no solid evidence or proof of such.


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## Falcon26

What’s the status on the fresh order of three Erieyes order by Pakistan which were supposed to be delivered in the first half of 2018?

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## messiach

Have we inducted the IFR variant? That would be v interesting.

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## blinder

#062 Saab 2000 formerly SE-LTU was ferried from Sweden through Romania to Pakistan yesterday. 
That is the third Saab 2000 delivery this year. 
Of course, these are 'bare' aircraft, not AEW&C (yet).

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## khanasifm

MIRauf said:


> The info of ZDK-03 radar being AESA is from wiki, please take it lightly as it is not correct. The first Three ZDK-03 were delivered long before KJ-500 (AESA version ) came out. The rumor was that 4th one may had been delayed to accommodate the AESA of KJ-500, however there is no solid evidence or proof of such.



Aesa can be mechanically scanned as well nothing stopping you from putting aesa In fact most ground based radar are now aesa arrays with mechanical in azimuth coverage of 360 degrees

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## Armchair

When PAF was repairing the Saab AWACS, they learned new European standard techniques of riveting and assorted engineering. I wonder if this went in to the JF-17 manufacturing as well. This could perhaps give a clue to why the JF-17s coming out look better constructed than your average Russian or Chinese aircraft.


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## graphican

Armchair said:


> When PAF was repairing the Saab AWACS, they learned new European standard techniques of riveting and assorted engineering. I wonder if this went in to the JF-17 manufacturing as well. This could perhaps give a clue to why the JF-17s coming out look better constructed than your average Russian or Chinese aircraft.



Not sure about the learning from Saab systems, but once the jets were destroyed, Pakistan would have access to every hair of the aircraft both on the platform and the radar - which may have been protected and inaccessible before. You never know in which form and shape blessings reach you.

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## Armchair

graphican said:


> Not sure about the learning from Saab systems, but once the jets were destroyed, Pakistan would have access to every hair of the aircraft both on the platform and the radar - which may have been protected and inaccessible before. You never know in which form and shape blessings reach you.



When PAF was repairing the SAAB 2000, they found that Saab used a different method of riveting / manufacturing that provided a superior finish. They were able to replicate this through some ingenious method. I'm simply wondering if those techniques managed to find their way to the JF-17s.

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## STRANGER BIRD



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## Safriz

STRANGER BIRD said:


>


Very very old picture

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## Dazzler

Interesting info in KE radar

From the comparison between the prototype and the radome, it can be inferred that the ZDK-03 radome has a diameter of 8.5 meters and a thickness of about 1.5 meters. These dimensions are smaller than the E-3A radome, and the latter is more than 9 radomes. The meter has a thickness of nearly 2 meters, so the antenna size of the ZDK-03 radar is smaller than APY-1. *The radar uses the higher frequencies, so it short wavelength, an antenna relative size (ratio between the antenna and the actual size of the wavelength) on a large, while the gain of the antenna (antenna effective aperture ratio of the square of the wavelength) is also higher, It means that the radar has a large detection distance.* Considering the problem of signal strength reduction in atmospheric transmission, the ZDK-03 radar should work in the S band . Although the remote performance of the S-band is smaller than the L-band, its accuracy is better. The main selection band of the detection and guidance radar.

The radar used by ZDK-03 is the *second generation of airborne early warning radar* developed by China in the 1980s. The radar mainly solves the shortcomings of the first generation of poor visibility, and adopts the pulse Doppler system.

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## Quwa

Dazzler said:


> Interesting info in KE radar
> 
> From the comparison between the prototype and the radome, it can be inferred that the ZDK-03 radome has a diameter of 8.5 meters and a thickness of about 1.5 meters. These dimensions are smaller than the E-3A radome, and the latter is more than 9 radomes. The meter has a thickness of nearly 2 meters, so the antenna size of the ZDK-03 radar is smaller than APY-1. *The radar uses the higher frequencies, so it short wavelength, an antenna relative size (ratio between the antenna and the actual size of the wavelength) on a large, while the gain of the antenna (antenna effective aperture ratio of the square of the wavelength) is also higher, It means that the radar has a large detection distance.* Considering the problem of signal strength reduction in atmospheric transmission, the ZDK-03 radar should work in the S band . Although the remote performance of the S-band is smaller than the L-band, its accuracy is better. The main selection band of the detection and guidance radar.
> 
> The radar used by ZDK-03 is the *second generation of airborne early warning radar* developed by China in the 1980s. The radar mainly solves the shortcomings of the first generation of poor visibility, and adopts the pulse Doppler system.


This may not be entirely applicable today; the PAF has reportedly changed the KE's radar to a different AESA model (away from the ZDK03 PESA). @messiach CETC also has a ZDK06 AESA platform.

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## Dazzler

Quwa said:


> This may not be entirely applicable today; the PAF has reportedly changed the KE's radar to a different AESA model (away from the ZDK03 PESA). @messiach CETC also has a ZDK06 AESA platform.



Are you suggesting the balance beam radar array fitted inside the rotodome? I am yet to see a single KE with a balance beam in Pakistan.


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## SQ8

Dazzler said:


> Are you suggesting the balance beam radar array fitted inside the rotodome? I am yet to see a single KE with a balance beam in Pakistan.


Not the balance beam system. Its a different system/part altogether and installed in a dual array scanning X degrees in the vertical but fixed in the horizontal- the dish rotation takes care of horizontal scanning.

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## Dazzler

Oscar said:


> Not the balance beam system. Its a different system/part altogether and installed in a dual array scanning X degrees in the vertical but fixed in the horizontal- the dish rotation takes care of horizontal scanning.



So the mechanical disk rotation is still there. Similar arrangement was there in the first version too. Only the radar has changed?


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## SQ8

Dazzler said:


> So the mechanical disk rotation is still there. Similar arrangement was there in the first version too. Only the radar has changed?


Yes, the radar is the only thing changed. Most cost effective upgrade within budget.

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## Dazzler

Oscar said:


> Yes, the radar is the only thing changed. Most cost effective upgrade within budget.



Searching the zdk06 took me to this brochure.. from the info on it, seems like a decent upgrade. 






The upgraded radar at a glance:

The ZDK-06 type early-warning aircraft exported by China adopts an active phased array radar antenna. The electronic scanning technology is faster, the radar beam has better directivity, and it has the ability to search the sea and the sea. At the same time, the S-band is used, which can have certain anti-stealth capabilities. The radar has a *maximum detection range of 450 kilometers*. The effective detection range for fighter-type targets (radar reflection area of *5 square meters, generally Su-27 or F-15) is 280 kilometers*, for *1000-ton surface ships, the detection capacity can reach 300 kilometers*. Such a radar, horizontally contrasted with the Swedish PS-890 "Ai Li eye" phased array radar, is in a leading position in overall performance.

The ZDK-06 early warning aircraft *exported this time* is the foreign trade type of *Air Police-200*. It adopts JY-06 active phased array radar and has the ability to monitor air and sea targets. Such flexible military and trade means will further enhance China's early warning aircraft radar technology.

Modified export version of the KJ-200 AESA balance beam radar.


----------



## messiach

Yes i am aware. This is a seperate program.


Quwa said:


> This may not be entirely applicable today; the PAF has reportedly changed the KE's radar to a different AESA model (away from the ZDK03 PESA). @messiach CETC also has a ZDK06 AESA platform.


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## Dazzler

messiach said:


> Yes i am aware. This is a seperate program.



So, the PAF zdk-03 not upgraded with the JY-06 radar array?


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## Path-Finder

What SIGINT aircraft does Pakistan have?


----------



## The Eagle

Personal attacks, inappropriate wording-posting, indecent behaviour etc, are not allowed. Be respectful and debate with manners, quality & knowledge. In-case of disagreement, agree to disagree with respect and move-on.

Regards,

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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> Searching the zdk06 took me to this brochure.. from the info on it, seems like a decent upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The upgraded radar at a glance:
> 
> The ZDK-06 type early-warning aircraft exported by China adopts an active phased array radar antenna. The electronic scanning technology is faster, the radar beam has better directivity, and it has the ability to search the sea and the sea. At the same time, the S-band is used, which can have certain anti-stealth capabilities. The radar has a *maximum detection range of 450 kilometers*. The effective detection range for fighter-type targets (radar reflection area of *5 square meters, generally Su-27 or F-15) is 280 kilometers*, for *1000-ton surface ships, the detection capacity can reach 300 kilometers*. Such a radar, horizontally contrasted with the Swedish PS-890 "Ai Li eye" phased array radar, is in a leading position in overall performance.
> 
> The ZDK-06 early warning aircraft *exported this time* is the foreign trade type of *Air Police-200*. It adopts JY-06 active phased array radar and has the ability to monitor air and sea targets. Such flexible military and trade means will further enhance China's early warning aircraft radar technology.
> 
> Modified export version of the KJ-200 AESA balance beam radar.


Maybe there is a new version of KJ-200. (KJ-200B?)








KJ-200

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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> Maybe there is a new version of KJ-200. (KJ-200B?)
> View attachment 495859
> View attachment 495860
> 
> 
> KJ-200
> View attachment 495861



It seems that the 200B does exist.

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## messiach

project ongoing, in works for Y8p AESA.


Dazzler said:


> So, the PAF zdk-03 not upgraded with the JY-06 radar array?

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## GriffinsRule

These are not Pakistan's AWACS and don't belong in this thread really

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## volatile

LKJ86 said:


> Maybe there is a new version of KJ-200. (KJ-200B?)


Hi how many types of Array radars are being used by China currently ,One more thing whats the purpose of so many different types ,Are they test buds ?

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## LKJ86

volatile said:


> Hi how many types of Array radars are being used by China currently ,One more thing whats the purpose of so many different types ,Are they test buds ?


No, they are for different purposes:

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## volatile

LKJ86 said:


> No, they are for different purposes:


Hmmm must be product of different research institutes ,I have a hunch we are going to see common platform soon

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## LKJ86

volatile said:


> Hmmm must be product of different research institutes ,I have a hunch we are going to see common platform soon


What common platform???

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## Path-Finder

Path-Finder said:


> What SIGINT aircraft does Pakistan have?


----------



## Imran Khan

Path-Finder said:


>




Dassault Falcon 20 DA-20 3 units 












Beech C-12 Huron also known king air 350ER 2 units

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## Incog_nito

Any other option for PAF for AEW&Cs? Other than Chinese & Swedish ones!


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## Imran Khan

IM Ozair said:


> Any other option for PAF for AEW&Cs? Other than Chinese & Swedish ones!


they are more then our needs .we need money now

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## Tank131

IM Ozair said:


> Any other option for PAF for AEW&Cs? Other than Chinese & Swedish ones!



Why would you want more AWACS? PAF has 8 currently and will have 11. Only US, Russia, China and Japan have more... Add to that that the swedes have some of the best AWACS on the market and PAF seems satisfied with the sources they have. Besides the only other sources are US (Not gonna happen), Russia (why would you need them for AWACS?), and Israel (dont need to editorialize on this one).

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## Path-Finder

I think more SIGINT aircraft are needed


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## Safriz

Dazzler said:


> It seems that the 200B does exist.



Thats a satellite communication dome.


----------



## Signalian

Imran Khan said:


> Dassault Falcon 20 DA-20 3 units
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beech C-12 Huron also known king air 350ER 2 units


One would wish such EW suite installed on a fighter platform.

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## Safriz

Signalian said:


> One would wish such EW suite installed on a fighter platform.


growlers ?F-18?


----------



## Signalian

شاھین میزایل said:


> growlers ?F-18?


yes on those lines. F-18 isnt available to PAF though so any other fighter platform.

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## Safriz

Signalian said:


> yes on those lines. F-18 isnt available to PAF though so any other fighter platform.


Mothballed A-5 can be brought out of retirement?
Oh wait..i also imagined them as cruise missiles

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## Signalian

شاھین میزایل said:


> Mothballed A-5 can be brought out of retirement?
> Oh wait..i also imagined them as cruise missiles


future stealth jet maybe

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## Safriz

Signalian said:


> future stealth jet maybe


No, with a guidance system the jets can be used as long range cruise missiles.

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## Signalian

شاھین میزایل said:


> No, with a guidance system the jets can be used as long range cruise missiles.


if thats not sarcasm, a stealth jet offers much more

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## Safriz

Signalian said:


> if thats not sarcasm, a stealth jet offers much more



No something like , but to be used as long range cruise missile. Hence simpler Autopilot, as it wont have to come back and land... Just fall on target.

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## baapu

شاھین میزایل said:


> No something like , but to be used as long range cruise missile. Hence simpler Autopilot, as it wont have to come back and land... Just fall on target.



you don't need autonomous planes for that. you just need remote controlled ones. also Missiles are much( x10) cheaper than airplanes.


----------



## Thorough Pro

You mean Early Warning or Electronic Warfare



Signalian said:


> One would wish such EW suite installed on a fighter platform.


----------



## Signalian

Thorough Pro said:


> You mean Early Warning or Electronic Warfare


Electronic warfare. No. 24 squadron operates falcon DA-20 for E-warfare role. Its said to have Early Warning capability. But lets say if i said Early Warning, then some fighters can act as mini-AWACS. Long range radars, target sharing through data transfer, mixed use of Radar and IR systems etc etc.

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## Readerdefence

Signalian said:


> Electronic warfare. No. 24 squadron operates falcon DA-20 for E-warfare role. Its said to have Early Warning capability. But lets say if i said Early Warning, then some fighters can act as mini-AWACS. Long range radars, target sharing through data transfer, mixed use of Radar and IR systems etc etc.


Hi my friend I think growler type of plane you need a twin engine jet as twin engine can generate 
More power for EW role I might be wrong but that’s what my thought is 
Your input will be appreciated 
Thank you

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## MIRauf

USN uses mostly Twin Engine Aircraft for obvious reasons, thus Growler ends up being a twin Engine. You can have a single engine that can be Growler type, however not many countries can produce a single engine that is ample for the task.

US has always been able to design with motto of bigger the better, for instance take muscle Cars and that concept has held true for jet engines as well. If you can get an engine that can give you access power then what you have in JF-17 then you can definitely have true Growler in JF-17.

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## MastanKhan

شاھین میزایل said:


> No something like , but to be used as long range cruise missile. Hence simpler Autopilot, as it wont have to come back and land... Just fall on target.



Hi,

Maybe it is the fly flying the aircraft---. Don't believe me---look at .59


----------



## krash

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Maybe it is the fly flying the aircraft---. Don't believe me---look at .59



Haha, good one. But that wasn't a fly, it was a shadow of something on the canopy or at front in the cockpit or a refractive shadow from the canopy moving with the aircraft's movement with respect to the sun. You can see it again at 1:24

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## Dazzler

Interesting, possibly upgraded zdk caught at CFTE? Notice improved radar housing with a new white dome at front (satcom?)

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## SQ8

Dazzler said:


> Interesting, possibly upgraded zdk caught at CFTE? Notice improved radar housing with a new white dome at front (satcom?)
> 
> View attachment 505212


It is a SATCOM terminal, since there is now a major introduction of it into our systems with our own dedicated comsats up.

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## Thorough Pro

Too big to be stealthy cruise missiles, though they can carry a ton load of high explosive



شاھین میزایل said:


> Mothballed A-5 can be brought out of retirement?
> Oh wait..i also imagined them as cruise missiles


----------



## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> Interesting, possibly upgraded zdk caught at CFTE? Notice improved radar housing with a new white dome at front (satcom?)
> 
> View attachment 505212


September 29, 2018




Maybe, there will be an upgrade to ZDK-03.

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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> September 29, 2018
> View attachment 506595
> 
> Maybe, there will be an upgrade to ZDK-03.



The upgraded zdk-03 are to be known as "Silk Road Eye" by CETC.

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## YeBeWarned

@cabatli_53 a bit stupid question bro, but is it possible to put Koral EW system on a Airbus or a large plane ?


----------



## LKJ86



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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 508796



White satcom dome is clearly visible. Antenna housing also looks a little different.


----------



## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> White satcom dome is clearly visible. Antenna housing also looks a little different.


It has a completely different radar.


----------



## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> It has a completely different radar.



Still made by 38th institute i reckon. If it is the rotating dome, which the shape suggests, the radar may still be pesa, i'll be disappointed.


----------



## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> Still made by 38th institute i reckon. If it is the rotating dome, which the shape suggests, the radar may still be pesa, i'll be disappointed.


AESA

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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> AESA



AESA with two radar dishes will leave blind spots at either side. Three dishes will cover 360 degrees though.


----------



## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> AESA with two radar dishes will leave blind spots at either side. Three dishes will cover 360 degrees though.


It is the rotating dome.

To make it high performance and low cost, that is the best choice.


----------



## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> It is the rotating dome.



Hence it is pesa as it scans vertical electrically and horizontal mechanically. Same arrangement was made in the previous radar. However, this radar has second generation T/R modules that scan twice as fast and able to avoid ground/ sea clutter. The presence of satcom antenna means the platform gets updates from local satellites too if required.


----------



## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> Hence it is pesa


No. It is similar to Russia's A-100.


----------



## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> No. It is similar to Russia's A-100.



A100 also has blind spots despite being AESA due to two dishes rather than three.


----------



## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> A100 also has blind spots despite being AESA due to two dishes rather than three.


It has the rotating dome.


----------



## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> It has the rotating dome.



Yes, the blind spots suggest the dome must rotate. However, the A100's dome rotates damn fast, takes 5 seconds to complete a rotation. The original zdk-03 took around 8 seconds to rotate whereas Sentry takes 10 seconds.


----------



## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> Yes, the blind spots means the dome must be rotating. However, the A100's dome rotates damn fast, takes 5 seconds to complete a rotation. The original zdk-03 took around 8 seconds to rotate whereas Sentry takes 10 seconds.


You can consider KJ-500 or KJ-2000, if you can afford it.


----------



## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> You can consider KJ-500 or KJ-2000, if you can afford it.



Sure, send over some kj-500s will you.


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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> Sure, send over some kj-500s will you.



Do you worry it is another "debt trap"?


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## XaviorXX

Radar has been changed to AESA, detection range is 40% higher than PESA

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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> Do you worry it is another "debt trap"?



Oh absolutely, IMF is my sincere friend you know. 



XaviorXX said:


> Radar has been changed to AESA, detection range is 40% higher than PESA



As expected, second generation T/R modules. Expected search range should be around 650km if the 40% figure is correct. 

That's a huge improvement, as the original radar could see as far as 480km. 

For reference, erieye has 450km for search, 350km for fighter size target. Phalcon could also search for target up to 450km.

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## CriticalThought

Dazzler said:


> Oh absolutely, IMF is my sincere friend you know.
> 
> 
> 
> As expected, second generation T/R modules. Expected search range should be around 650km if the 40% figure is correct.
> 
> That's a huge improvement, as the original radar could see as far as 480km.
> 
> For reference, erieye has 450km for search, 350km for fighter size target. Phalcon could also search for target up to 450km.



What is the performance against ground/sea targets?

If satellites could detect and transmit real time tracking of ballistic missiles, it would be a game changer.


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## Dazzler

CriticalThought said:


> What is the performance against ground/sea targets?
> 
> If satellites could detect and transmit real time tracking of ballistic missiles, it would be a game changer.



ZDK-03s had better performance over the sea hence stationing them near the coast made sense. I see one regularly patrolling in Karachi. The upgraded radar should improve that. The satellite images shared clearly show a dome before the radar dish that suggests perhaps the satcom is there too.

If true, then technically, it should be able to provide realtime tracking to assets like cruise and ballistic missiles.

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## CriticalThought

Dazzler said:


> ZDK-03s had better performance over the sea hence stationing them near the coast made sense. I see one regularly patrolling in Karachi. The upgraded radar should improve that. The satellite images shared clearly show a dome before the radar dish that suggests perhaps the satcom is there too.
> 
> If true, then technically, it should be able to provide realtime tracking to assets like cruise and ballistic missiles.



I am talking about detecting and tracking Indian launches. As a first, basic line of defence, we could try to shoot down the incoming missile mid-flight with a plane. Remember, with SSBNs and Agni V, India can launch against us from 5000 kms.


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## LKJ86

CriticalThought said:


> shoot down the incoming missile mid-flight with a plane


What???


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## CriticalThought

LKJ86 said:


> What???



Yes. Mid-flight. With a plane whose service ceiling is above 55000 ft.


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## LKJ86

CriticalThought said:


> Yes. Mid-flight. With a plane whose service ceiling is above 55000 ft.


Did any country do that before?


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## Ultima Thule

CriticalThought said:


> I am talking about detecting and tracking Indian launches. As a first, basic line of defence, we could try to shoot down the incoming missile mid-flight with a plane. Remember, with SSBNs and Agni V, India can launch against us from 5000 kms.


Agni V is the land based BM not SLBM their intended SLBM is K-4 which is China intended and Agni V is also China intended, for Pakistan Agni-2 and 3 is enough for pakistan @CriticalThought 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-4_(SLBM)

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## Dazzler

Keep it on AWACS guys. Open a new thread to discuss possible scenarios.

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## Ultima Thule

CriticalThought said:


> Yes. Mid-flight. With a plane whose service ceiling is above 55000 ft.


impossible reentry vehicle falling toward targets Mach-5 and above, its impossible to achieve this feet from air @CriticalThought



LKJ86 said:


> Did any country do that before?


No bro @CriticalThought is just speculating @LKJ86


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## CriticalThought

pakistanipower said:


> impossible reentry vehicle falling toward targets Mach-5 and above, its impossible to achieve this feet from air @CriticalThought
> 
> 
> No bro @CriticalThought is just speculating @LKJ86



@LKJ86 

It has been considered before. I don't know what's the current status

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...s-for-new-air-launched-anti-ballistic-222724/

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## LKJ86

CriticalThought said:


> @LKJ86
> 
> It has been considered before. I don't know what's the current status
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...s-for-new-air-launched-anti-ballistic-222724/


Thx.


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## Ultima Thule

CriticalThought said:


> @LKJ86
> 
> It has been considered before. I don't know what's the current status
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...s-for-new-air-launched-anti-ballistic-222724/


considered but not applicable/feasible, that's why anyone doesn't use this option currently @CriticalThought


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## MIRauf

Starlord said:


> @cabatli_53 a bit stupid question bro, but is it possible to put Koral EW system on a Airbus or a large plane ?



Yes, more then likely, but like anything else it will need to be integrated and tested which equals = $ cost. Airbus and or the Koral EW System Maker won't foot the bill so the end user will have to.


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## YeBeWarned

MIRauf said:


> Yes, more then likely, but like anything else it will need to be integrated and tested which equals = $ cost. Airbus and or the Koral EW System Maker won't foot the bill so the end user will have to.



would be interesting project to invest in .


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## MIRauf

Starlord said:


> would be interesting project to invest in .



Yes, but how got the green "$" to spare ?

$ must the issue, to keep cost down they are sticking with rotor-dome and two panel arrays for AESA instead of fix three panels, just my thoughts.


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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> I am talking about detecting and tracking Indian launches. As a first, basic line of defence, we could try to shoot down the incoming missile mid-flight with a plane. Remember, with SSBNs and Agni V, India can launch against us from 5000 kms.


The equation for us with missiles is that we have few key strategic targets to defend; which sounds nice in writing but as perspective it doesn’t take much to end Pakistan versus India.
How many times will they hit the 22 airfields, army bases and Islamabad, Lahore, Peshawar,Karachi and Quetta?
Add to that the very limited window of flight times for our targets and you see our dilemma in actually defending our key points.

However, detection wise we have a better geographical and coverage advantage. The TPS-77 can pick up launches from the east and AEW coverage is ample to pick up launches from the sea(I doubt their usage for the reasons outlined in the first paragraph).

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> The equation for us with missiles is that we have few key strategic targets to defend; which sounds nice in writing but as perspective it doesn’t take much to end Pakistan versus India.
> How many times will they hit the 22 airfields, army bases and Islamabad, Lahore, Peshawar,Karachi and Quetta?
> Add to that the very limited window of flight times for our targets and you see our dilemma in actually defending our key points.
> 
> However, detection wise we have a better geographical and coverage advantage. The TPS-77 can pick up launches from the east and AEW coverage is ample to pick up launches from the sea(I doubt their usage for the reasons outlined in the first paragraph).



Hi,

And you claim to be an ANALYST---.

Military is not the only target---.

The targets would primarily be---Railway bridges---100's of them---railway yards---railway track---road bridges---100's of them---oil refinery---oil reservoirs---water reservoirs---storage facilities & godowns---electricity generating plants ( non nuclear )---telecommunication centers---dam walls---.


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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> And you claim to be an ANALYST---.
> 
> Military is not the only target---.
> 
> The targets would primarily be---Railway bridges---100's of them---railway yards---railway track---road bridges---100's of them---oil refinery---oil reservoirs---water reservoirs---storage facilities & godowns---electricity generating plants ( non nuclear )---telecommunication centers---dam walls---.


Yes, and a better one than you.. probably know how to read better too barey mian..

because I see strategic targets requiring retaliation from nuclear weapons and those that would be targets of nuclear attacks.. not conventional targets; unless you think India wants to hit Taunsa barrage with a nuclear weapon.
So yes, while what you list are nice copy paste answers to targets; since you never bother to read anything except repeating five things or self fellatio of yourself.. You missed the actual gist of the post which is limited targets for nuclear weapons and does not need a detailed list of what will be likely targeted. 
Something analysts do is know how to state requirements without bringing up the entire ram kahani every-time.

But since you are not aware enough and experienced/educated enough in the field of anything to do with analysis or strategy- let me help you.

Maybe as you grow wiser you will read on General Warden and his five rings model, this was a cold war concept of identifying factors of influence within a country to sway conflict.
While that model is debated it does point out that a country's function is loosely based on this model.






So the amount of damage needed to paralyze a country differs within each circle; damage the leadership enough and the country stops. However, even in this the center of gravity may at times be outside the leadership circle as a distributed leadership may continue to offer resistance or leadership may be well protected, in that case you hit national systems such as water and power. 

However, the lopside of this is that once a nuclear weapon is dropped: the levels of influence cross these already loose boundaries and so the effect of a weapon drop increases across the rings. A nuclear weapon on the GHQ will hit civilians and also destroy the environment- a hit on masroor AB also hits Karachi- making Tarbela irrelevant to a nuclear attack.

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## YeBeWarned

MIRauf said:


> Yes, but how got the green "$" to spare ?
> 
> $ must the issue, to keep cost down they are sticking with rotor-dome and two panel arrays for AESA instead of fix three panels, just my thoughts.



if that system turned out to be a useful solution for Tackling rising threat of a multi-layer SAM from the neighbor than i believe investing in a Koral mounted on a Airbus would worth it . the future is all about Electronic warfare .


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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> Yes, and a better one than you.. probably know how to read better too barey mian..
> 
> because I see strategic targets requiring retaliation from nuclear weapons and those that would be targets of nuclear attacks.. not conventional targets; unless you think India wants to hit Taunsa barrage with a nuclear weapon.
> So yes, while what you list are nice copy paste answers to targets; since you never bother to read anything except repeating five things or self fellatio of yourself.. You missed the actual gist of the post which is limited targets for nuclear weapons and does not need a detailed list of what will be likely targeted.
> Something analysts do is know how to state requirements without bringing up the entire ram kahani every-time.
> 
> But since you are not aware enough and experienced/educated enough in the field of anything to do with analysis or strategy- let me help you.
> 
> Maybe as you grow wiser you will read on General Warden and his five rings model, this was a cold war concept of identifying factors of influence within a country to sway conflict.
> While that model is debated it does point out that a country's function is loosely based on this model.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the amount of damage needed to paralyze a country differs within each circle; damage the leadership enough and the country stops. However, even in this the center of gravity may at times be outside the leadership circle as a distributed leadership may continue to offer resistance or leadership may be well protected, in that case you hit national systems such as water and power.
> 
> However, the lopside of this is that once a nuclear weapon is dropped: the levels of influence cross these already loose boundaries and so the effect of a weapon drop increases across the rings. A nuclear weapon on the GHQ will hit civilians and also destroy the environment- a hit on masroor AB also hits Karachi- making Tarbela irrelevant to a nuclear attack.




Sonny boy---,

You just learning these things in the current or last decade---. Good for you---.

How silly could you be to assume that I do not know these things---or have not read similar concepts---.

You are getting dumber than I thought---where did I say india would hit Taunsa with a nuc---.

Andhaun mein kana Raja---enjoy your fame---.


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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Sonny boy---,
> 
> You just learning these things in the current or last decade---. Good for you---.
> 
> How silly could you be to assume that I do not know these things---or have not read similar concepts---.
> 
> You are getting dumber than I thought---where did I say india would hit Taunsa with a nuc---.
> 
> Andhaun mein kana Raja---enjoy your fame---.


The fact that you needed to close with fame tells everyone that is what you really value.. and have always valued; some recognition, some validation for your intellect.

And yes I did learn in the last ten years and will continue to learn, because that is what I value; not internet followers or fame.

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> The fact that you needed to close with fame tells everyone that is what you really value.. and have always valued; some recognition, some validation for your intellect.
> 
> And yes I did learn in the last ten years and will continue to learn, because that is what I value; not internet followers or fame.



Good for you---keep on learning---.


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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> The equation for us with missiles is that we have few key strategic targets to defend; which sounds nice in writing but as perspective it doesn’t take much to end Pakistan versus India.
> How many times will they hit the 22 airfields, army bases and Islamabad, Lahore, Peshawar,Karachi and Quetta?
> Add to that the very limited window of flight times for our targets and you see our dilemma in actually defending our key points.
> 
> However, detection wise we have a better geographical and coverage advantage. The TPS-77 can pick up launches from the east and AEW coverage is ample to pick up launches from the sea(I doubt their usage for the reasons outlined in the first paragraph).



Thank you. Limited targets is exactly my worry as well. Forgetting nuclear attacks for a moment, here is my hypothesis on how a cold start attack may unfold:

1. Saturation strike against forward airbases and air defence sites. Soften up air defence and air attack to allow IAF jets easy access to deeper targets.
2. Use Indian multi-layer air defence to soften the impact of any retaliatory strikes.
3. Use the confusion and chaos from 1 to strike and neutralize as many of the following as follows:
a. Breeder reactors.
b. Nuclear laboratories and facilities.
c. PAC Kamra.
d. POF.
e. HIT.
f. Other targets that form the backbone of military and strategic production.

IF this comes to pass, we will be set back by multiple decades. And rebuilding would not be possible because now they will be able to attack with impunity. Essentially, it would be game over.

There is one way to assure a guaranteed retaliatory response. Arm Black Storks with small tactical devices and station them throughout India. If any Black Swan event happens, their orders should be to strike immediately and without mercy.

What this does to nuclear threshold, nuclear safety, peace and stability, anyone can see.

The other option is to ensure saturation strikes cannot succeed. HQ-9 is the first piece of that puzzle, followed by S-400 if possible. But the only sustainable way is to create an indigenous air defence infrastructure. And when I say indigenous, I mean having semiconductor fabrication facilities that allow us to print our own GaN circuits.

I have always been amazed that a country that has a veritable menagerie of ballistic and cruise missiles has been unable to produce AAMs, and SAMs? It defies logic, seriously.

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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> Thank you. Limited targets is exactly my worry as well. Forgetting nuclear attacks for a moment, here is my hypothesis on how a cold start attack may unfold:
> 
> 1. Saturation strike against forward airbases and air defence sites. Soften up air defence and air attack to allow IAF jets easy access to deeper targets.
> 2. Use Indian multi-layer air defence to soften the impact of any retaliatory strikes.
> 3. Use the confusion and chaos from 1 to strike and neutralize as many of the following as follows:
> a. Breeder reactors.
> b. Nuclear laboratories and facilities.
> c. PAC Kamra.
> d. POF.
> e. HIT.
> f. Other targets that form the backbone of military and strategic production.
> 
> IF this comes to pass, we will be set back by multiple decades. And rebuilding would not be possible because now they will be able to attack with impunity. Essentially, it would be game over.
> 
> There is one way to assure a guaranteed retaliatory response. Arm Black Storks with small tactical devices and station them throughout India. If any Black Swan event happens, their orders should be to strike immediately and without mercy.
> 
> What this does to nuclear threshold, nuclear safety, peace and stability, anyone can see.
> 
> The other option is to ensure saturation strikes cannot succeed. HQ-9 is the first piece of that puzzle, followed by S-400 if possible. But the only sustainable way is to create an indigenous air defence infrastructure. And when I say indigenous, I mean having semiconductor fabrication facilities that allow us to print our own GaN circuits.
> 
> I have always been amazed that a country that has a veritable menagerie of ballistic and cruise missiles has been unable to produce AAMs, and SAMs? It defies logic, seriously.


A ballistic missile has a different trajectory versus an A2A system. More importantly, the guidance for A2A and SAM systems is entirely different and requires the prerequisite availability of seeker systems. Oddly, Semi-Active systems such as the R-530 were available for study but were ignored for development entirely. 
The PAF did not have one lost decade but several periods of leadership apathy which was depending upon foriegn procurement whenever it was available. A local IR SAM was abandoned since it was built with both low expertise and low budget ; unlike the Israelis the PAF did not capitalize on willing SA personell after the end of the apartheid as efficiently otherwise we had people willing to build us a complete fighter for the right money or at least inculcate the knowhow @denel can elaborate more on this.

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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> A ballistic missile has a different trajectory versus an A2A system. More importantly, the guidance for A2A and SAM systems is entirely different and requires the prerequisite availability of seeker systems. Oddly, Semi-Active systems such as the R-530 were available for study but were ignored for development entirely.
> The PAF did not have one lost decade but several periods of leadership apathy which was depending upon foriegn procurement whenever it was available. A local IR SAM was abandoned since it was built with both low expertise and low budget ; unlike the Israelis the PAF did not capitalize on willing SA personell after the end of the apartheid as efficiently otherwise we had people willing to build us a complete fighter for the right money or at least inculcate the knowhow @denel can elaborate more on this.



Although ballistic missiles exhibit a different flight profile, what we are seeing in modern systems is convergence. One single system combines many different aspects into a centralized command and control. The actual missiles used for counter-attack may be different, but controlled from the single core. It will take us time to cover all aspects of air defence, but a start needs to be made.

What is lost, is lost already. We need to think about the future, the emerging threats we face, and how best to give a response. Another 'option' is to seek depth in Afghanistan. I have always been opposed to the fence. Instead of building the fence, we should have given an ultimatum to Afghanistan that terrorism comes from their territory, and we will fix it for them if they don't. If any attacks happen against our forward posts, we should simply annex that adjoining territory and immediately consolidate by providing facilities to locals. The Afghan refugees can also be settled in these areas. What Afghans are looking for is respect and an end to the indignity they face today. If we as Muslims can restore their pride, we will have strong allies.

Yet another way is to seek a foreign base in Maldives, Myanmar and Malaysia. This increases the cost of defence for the enemy. Today, India need only secure its Western borders. Now increase the threat range such that it compels India to provide a 360 degree multi-layer air defence. Suddenly, the cost balloons, the operation becomes complex, the opportunities for making mistakes increase.

Finally, there is the SSBN option. India MUST be under threat of strikes originating from the depths of the five oceans. All other options set aside, this option is one that has actually been considered. We have the statement of a parliamentarian saying we should look into acquiring an SSBN.

Thankfully, we see the foreign office busy in calling world attention to the issue. Hopefully, they are shaping up opinion, and preparing the world to take our strategic programmes to the next level. I propose that we should rub the gravity of the situation into the faces of European Union, and Israel. Our strategic restraint is no longer tenable because our security requires an ability to launch ICBM from anywhere in the oceans. Unless such pressure is applied, the world will turn a blind eye to Indian arms accumulation.


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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> Although ballistic missiles exhibit a different flight profile, what we are seeing in modern systems is convergence. One single system combines many different aspects into a centralized command and control. The actual missiles used for counter-attack may be different, but controlled from the single core. It will take us time to cover all aspects of air defence, but a start needs to be made.
> 
> What is lost, is lost already. We need to think about the future, the emerging threats we face, and how best to give a response. Another 'option' is to seek depth in Afghanistan. I have always been opposed to the fence. Instead of building the fence, we should have given an ultimatum to Afghanistan that terrorism comes from their territory, and we will fix it for them if they don't. If any attacks happen against our forward posts, we should simply annex that adjoining territory and immediately consolidate by providing facilities to locals. The Afghan refugees can also be settled in these areas. What Afghans are looking for is respect and an end to the indignity they face today. If we as Muslims can restore their pride, we will have strong allies.
> 
> Yet another way is to seek a foreign base in Maldives, Myanmar and Malaysia. This increases the cost of defence for the enemy. Today, India need only secure its Western borders. Now increase the threat range such that it compels India to provide a 360 degree multi-layer air defence. Suddenly, the cost balloons, the operation becomes complex, the opportunities for making mistakes increase.
> 
> Finally, there is the SSBN option. India MUST be under threat of strikes originating from the depths of the five oceans. All other options set aside, this option is one that has actually been considered. We have the statement of a parliamentarian saying we should look into acquiring an SSBN.
> 
> Thankfully, we see the foreign office busy in calling world attention to the issue. Hopefully, they are shaping up opinion, and preparing the world to take our strategic programmes to the next level. I propose that we should rub the gravity of the situation into the faces of European Union, and Israel. Our strategic restraint is no longer tenable because our security requires an ability to launch ICBM from anywhere in the oceans. Unless such pressure is applied, the world will turn a blind eye to Indian arms accumulation.


We can continue this elsewhere as now we are derailing the thread. 

To bring it back to the topic, our AEW coverage is sufficient(rather excessive) for monitoring perceived threats including ballistic and cruise systems. 
What is lacking is interception capability which is coming from one local and one imported source.

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## randomradio

CriticalThought said:


> 1. Saturation strike against forward airbases and air defence sites. Soften up air defence and air attack to allow IAF jets easy access to deeper targets.
> 2. Use Indian multi-layer air defence to soften the impact of any retaliatory strikes.
> 3. Use the confusion and chaos from 1 to strike and neutralize as many of the following as follows:
> a. Breeder reactors.
> b. Nuclear laboratories and facilities.
> c. PAC Kamra.
> d. POF.
> e. HIT.
> f. Other targets that form the backbone of military and strategic production.



"Cold Start" is not meant for anything you said. And any air action is intended to degrade Pakistan's military capabilities within the influence of the IBGs, basically ensure air superiority over our own troops. The idea is to humiliate Pakistan, not destroy it. We will take some territory and then call for a ceasefire, thereby bringing you to the negotiating table on our terms. And the escalation ball will be thrown in your court.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> A ballistic missile has a different trajectory versus an A2A system. More importantly, the guidance for A2A and SAM systems is entirely different and requires the prerequisite availability of seeker systems. Oddly, Semi-Active systems such as the R-530 were available for study but were ignored for development entirely.
> The PAF did not have one lost decade but several periods of leadership apathy which was depending upon foriegn procurement whenever it was available. A local IR SAM was abandoned since it was built with both low expertise and low budget ; *unlike the Israelis the PAF did not capitalize on willing SA personell after the end of the apartheid as efficiently otherwise we had people willing to build us a complete fighter for the right money or at least inculcate the knowhow* @denel can elaborate more on this.


It seems the aloofness on our end is still there, though the creation of AvRID and AvDI might finally offer at least a little space for initiative, but it too would be for naught if they don't properly open it up to contrarian thinkers. But yes, in the 1990s there were a bunch of folks around from the defunct Novi Avion (Yugoslavia), Denel Carver (South Africa) and IAR 95 (Romania) we could've taken-up for fighter development.

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## Cookie Monster

Oscar said:


> The equation for us with missiles is that we have few key strategic targets to defend; which sounds nice in writing but as perspective it doesn’t take much to end Pakistan versus India.
> How many times will they hit the 22 airfields, army bases and Islamabad, Lahore, Peshawar,Karachi and Quetta?
> Add to that the very limited window of flight times for our targets and you see our dilemma in actually defending our key points.
> 
> However, detection wise we have a better geographical and coverage advantage. The TPS-77 can pick up launches from the east and AEW coverage is ample to pick up launches from the sea(I doubt their usage for the reasons outlined in the first paragraph).


In addition to early detection of launches and acquiring/deploying SAM batteries...the whole conventional way of defending key targets
...shouldn't Pak also build secret fortified underground facilities? Not the cities and runways of course but where applicable.

I remember watching a documentary about how Switzerland has many such underground fortified bunkers, storage facilities, etc...which would make it really difficult for any advancing forces to take or hold on to its territory. Vietcong also used underground tunnels to house and transport troops, communications and supplies, etc...this proved to be a key advantage for them.


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## Dazzler

KLC-7 - Silk Road Eye, a glimpse into the new zdk-03 AESA radar

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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> KLC-7 - Silk Road Eye, a glimpse into the new zdk-03 AESA radar
> 
> View attachment 515135


https://m.weibo.cn/5944220394/4303479570659000

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## randomradio

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yiu can start a war on your terms---but you only stop at the enemy's terms---.
> 
> That is what the egyptians learnt during the Ramzan war---.



"Cold Start" will throw the escalation ball in Pakistan's court. It's up to Pakistan what happens next. There will still be some time between the start of "Cold Start" and the Indian Strike Corps moving into position after all. If Pakistan wants to prolong the war after "Cold Start" operations are done with, then India will obviously be glad to oblige.

Once the Strike Corps start moving, it will be a you or us war.


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## ziaulislam

randomradio said:


> "Cold Start" will throw the escalation ball in Pakistan's court. It's up to Pakistan what happens next. There will still be some time between the start of "Cold Start" and the Indian Strike Corps moving into position after all. If Pakistan wants to prolong the war after "Cold Start" operations are done with, then India will obviously be glad to oblige.
> 
> Once the Strike Corps start moving, it will be a you or us war.


Its simple , we will blow a nuke in our land, if hypothetical india has enough air power, mobility , numbers to enforce a cold start which means like an Afghanistan - america scenario ...lol

Now if india want to nuke our cities in return for military use for low tactical weapons than you are welcome, we will be happy to oblige with same
response..obviously we will run out of cities first so we will go for MAD..


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## randomradio

ziaulislam said:


> Its simple , we will blow a nuke in our land, if hypothetical india has enough air power, mobility , numbers to enforce a cold start which means like an Afghanistan - america scenario ...lol
> 
> Now if india want to nuke our cities in return for military use for low tactical weapons than you are welcome, we will be happy to oblige with same
> response..obviously we will run out of cities first so we will go for MAD..



I have found that nobody in Pakistan actually understands the concept of MAD.

When it came to Americans and Russians, MAD implied the destruction of *all* urban settlements with populations above 5000 people. Do you know how many urban settlements of this size are actually present in India?

No, destroying Delhi or Mumbai or the other metro cities does not constitute MAD. Those cities will just get rebuilt again.

Anyway, this has all gone off topic. So that's the end of my 2 paisa here.


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## Awan68

randomradio said:


> I have found that nobody in Pakistan actually understands the concept of MAD.
> 
> When it came to Americans and Russians, MAD implied the destruction of *all* urban settlements with populations above 5000 people. Do you know how many urban settlements of this size are actually present in India?
> 
> No, destroying Delhi or Mumbai or the other metro cities does not constitute MAD. Those cities will just get rebuilt again.
> 
> Anyway, this has all gone off topic. So that's the end of my 2 paisa here.


Ur opinion is not worth 2 paisas.

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## ziaulislam

randomradio said:


> I have found that nobody in Pakistan actually understands the concept of MAD.
> 
> When it came to Americans and Russians, MAD implied the destruction of *all* urban settlements with populations above 5000 people. Do you know how many urban settlements of this size are actually present in India?
> 
> No, destroying Delhi or Mumbai or the other metro cities does not constitute MAD. Those cities will just get rebuilt again.
> 
> Anyway, this has all gone off topic. So that's the end of my 2 paisa here.


We do it simply means extinction of life in subcontinent ...throwing arpund 140 nukes each have capcity 100 times more than one dropped on japan..try building dehli after you get 150+ nukes up..


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## SQ8

ziaulislam said:


> We do it simply means extinction of life in subcontinent ...throwing arpund 140 nukes each have capcity 100 times more than one dropped on japan..try building dehli after you get 150+ nukes up..


Hopefully one lands on the member and their family, and then he can 
"rebuild".


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## randomradio

Oscar said:


> Hopefully one lands on the member and their family, and then he can
> "rebuild".



Funnily enough, one 60kt nuke will destroy my entire residential district, but that's only a tiny part of the total size of my city. The damage with 3 psi overpressure (the max at which residential houses can collapse) extends to a diameter of 8Km only whereas the major cities are as much as 80-120Km in diameter. In simple terms, a 60kt nuke can destroy less than 1/100th of a metro city with only 3 psi, and that's at the lower scale of the actual size of the urban area of the metro cities.

If you wish to affect my entire city, you will need 10 350kt nukes. And even this is only at 3psi. Most commercial structures and large apartment buildings will still survive. If you want to achieve at least 90% destruction, you will need more than 10 350kt nukes.

Even if the entire city is destroyed, there's still 1.3 billion people left in the country. Even if all 8 major metros are destroyed, there's still 1.3 billion people left, the power of rounding off. Even if me and my family are dead, there will always be people available to rebuild.

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## Thorough Pro

and being the scum of the earth radiation will have zero impact on Indians and their food and water supply ....



randomradio said:


> Funnily enough, one 60kt nuke will destroy my entire residential district, but that's only a tiny part of the total size of my city. The damage with 3 psi overpressure (the max at which residential houses can collapse) extends to a diameter of 8Km only whereas the major cities are as much as 80-120Km in diameter. In simple terms, a 60kt nuke can destroy less than 1/100th of a metro city with only 3 psi, and that's at the lower scale of the actual size of the urban area of the metro cities.
> 
> If you wish to affect my entire city, you will need 10 350kt nukes. And even this is only at 3psi. Most commercial structures and large apartment buildings will still survive. If you want to achieve at least 90% destruction, you will need more than 10 350kt nukes.
> 
> Even if the entire city is destroyed, there's still 1.3 billion people left in the country. Even if all 8 major metros are destroyed, there's still 1.3 billion people left, the power of rounding off. Even if me and my family are dead, there will always be people available to rebuild.

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## randomradio

Thorough Pro said:


> and being the scum of the earth radiation will have zero impact on Indians and their food and water supply ....



150 nukes = about 9000Kg or uranium. That's peanuts. There's more amount of uranium flowing in waters naturally. Otoh, the US released 500T of depleted uranium on Iraq in 1991 and 2003. They needed less than $50M to clean it all up.

Also a huge amount of uranium released from air burst nukes end up high up in the air floating around harmlessly for decades. The threat of fallout from air burst nukes is minimal. And 8 months out of 12, air over India blows towards Pakistan, so... 

As for surface burst, since Pakistani nukes are small, if there is any dangerous fallout, most of it will fall in the target area, which is easy to decontaminate since the area's destroyed and debris has to be cleared out anyway.

As for farms and such, you just replace the top soil in areas of high contamination. In areas of low contamination, you just wait for rain water to clear it all out. Contamination is easily washed away using irrigation techniques also.

As for prolonged radiation threat, in 3 months any amount of radiation from any sized nuke (including Tsar Bomba) in a blast zone will have become harmless. You can simply walk into these places after 3 months.

This is Ground Zero in Hiroshima. The place where the bomb burst.






Here's how Hiroshima was rebuilt after the bombing.




October 1945, April 1946, December 1948, February 1953. Just 8 years. And India will not have spent as much money in an Indo-Pak war as the Japanese had done for WW2. So we will have more money for the reconstruction process.

Do you know that 90% of the city was affected by the bomb, but in just 6 months, the Japanese restored power to all households in Hiroshima? And in India, most of our power in cities is now going underground. Water connections were restored in only 4 days. Even banks opened in just 2 days.

Nukes are deadly and everything, but I wouldn't exaggerate the effects of nukes.

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## Army research

randomradio said:


> 150 nukes = about 9000Kg or uranium. That's peanuts. There's more amount of uranium flowing in waters naturally. Otoh, the US released 500T of depleted uranium on Iraq in 1991 and 2003. They needed less than $50M to clean it all up.
> 
> Also a huge amount of uranium released from air burst nukes end up high up in the air floating around harmlessly for decades. The threat of fallout from air burst nukes is minimal. And 8 months out of 12, air over India blows towards Pakistan, so...
> 
> As for surface burst, since Pakistani nukes are small, if there is any dangerous fallout, most of it will fall in the target area, which is easy to decontaminate since the area's destroyed and debris has to be cleared out anyway.
> 
> As for farms and such, you just replace the top soil in areas of high contamination. In areas of low contamination, you just wait for rain water to clear it all out. Contamination is easily washed away using irrigation techniques also.
> 
> As for prolonged radiation threat, in 3 months any amount of radiation from any sized nuke (including Tsar Bomba) in a blast zone will have become harmless. You can simply walk into these places after 3 months.
> 
> This is Ground Zero in Hiroshima. The place where the bomb burst.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's how Hiroshima was rebuilt after the bombing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> October 1945, April 1946, December 1948, February 1953. Just 8 years. And India will not have spent as much money in an Indo-Pak war as the Japanese had done for WW2. So we will have more money for the reconstruction process.
> 
> Do you know that 90% of the city was affected by the bomb, but in just 6 months, the Japanese restored power to all households in Hiroshima? And in India, most of our power in cities is now going underground. Water connections were restored in only 4 days. Even banks opened in just 2 days.
> 
> Nukes are deadly and everything, but I wouldn't exaggerate the effects of nukes.


You do know that radiation clouds from , huge mushroom clouds blocking out the sun , 
Experts say indo Pak nuc war will ruin 40% of world supply ,


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## MIRauf

@randomradio is just "feelin' froggy" for conflict/war, but like rest of his country men, he lacks the will/resolve to "leap."

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## randomradio

Army research said:


> You do know that radiation clouds from , huge mushroom clouds blocking out the sun ,
> Experts say indo Pak nuc war will ruin 40% of world supply ,



There are two types of explosions based on height. Air burst and surface burst.

Air burst kills people. Surface burst creates fallout. You can only choose between the two for each bomb.

Most city bursting nukes are detonated at great heights. When this happens the pressure extends to a large area and destroys buildings due to overpressure. Most people die in the initial explosion, and due to debris falling on them. Those who survive are irradiated, but are likely buried under debris anyway. Pretty much everybody in the blast zone burns. But fallout is minimum since there is no actual contact with the earth. Only a small amount of radioactive material is ejected into the atmosphere and this slowly decays over time, mostly harmless.

When it comes to surface burst, the area destroyed is significantly lesser and the casualties are much lower. But there is contact with the earth. So the radioactive material mixes with the earth and is thrown high up in the air. A large amount of earth is now radioactive, this is what we call fallout. The fallout rises up with the mushroom cloud and has the potential of blocking the sun. But here's the catch, the nuke has to be upwards of 2MT or more in order for the mushroom to reach the stratosphere and block the sun. 20kt, 60kt, 100kt, 200kt, 450kt etc cannot create a mushroom cloud that's big enough to reach the stratosphere.

Basically, what happens with small nukes is the fallout simply falls back to the earth around the target area. And this process takes time, so most of the radiation is already pretty weak by the time it falls back and begins to affect people. Normally, before 70 hours is up, most radiation has become harmless.

Normally you would use a combination of air burst and surface burst when you attack a city. But in the India-Pak context, the nukes are so small and so few in number that the effects are highly localised, not global. And when I say localised, it is quite literally around the target area. You can see the pictures of Hiroshima that I posted. Even the blast zone was occupied very quickly.

Some people will fool you into believing that farms will be permanently destroyed, rivers will be irradiated etc. But nukes are too weak to do all that. Even if you use 15MT nukes, it's not as bad as it's made out to be, because you are most likely using far too few such nukes for it to matter in the long run.

An extraordinary amount of effort is required to block out the sun, and it's likely even the US and Russia combined do not have that kind of firepower. To create the kind of effect people generally talk about, you need something like a supervolcano erupting, and even then there's no guarantee that it can block the sun. And a supervolcano is hundreds of times more powerful than all the nukes in the world combined.

To put it in perspective, if you take all the nukes in the world today, and then put them all together in one single nuke and then multiply the yield by a further 100 times, you will not even create 1/100th the impact of the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs. All those nukes multiplied by 100 will barely be powerful enough to match an earthquake with a score of 10 on the Richter Scale.

We are still hundreds of years away from creating a usable planet killing weapon.


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## Dazzler

Keep it on topic.


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## LKJ86

KLC-7 - Silk Road Eye


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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> KLC-7 - Silk Road Eye
> View attachment 518466


translation plz ....


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## jaybird

HRK said:


> translation plz ....



After upgrade/modification of KLC-7 - Silk Road Eye AESA airborne early warning radar. The search distance is increased by more than 1/3 compared to old version. Also adding ability/function to do extended distance search and track targets in designated critical/high risk direction/area.

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## Dazzler

jaybird said:


> After upgrade/modification of KLC-7 - Silk Road Eye AESA airborne early warning radar. The search distance is increased by more than 1/3 compared to old version. Also adding ability/function to do extended distance search and track targets in designated critical/high risk direction/area.



Refer to post#5108 and check the estimated range for the KLC-7 mentioned two weeks ago.

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## Sinnerman108

randomradio said:


> Funnily enough, one 60kt nuke will destroy my entire residential district, but that's only a tiny part of the total size of my city. The damage with 3 psi overpressure (the max at which residential houses can collapse) extends to a diameter of 8Km only whereas the major cities are as much as 80-120Km in diameter. In simple terms, a 60kt nuke can destroy less than 1/100th of a metro city with only 3 psi, and that's at the lower scale of the actual size of the urban area of the metro cities.
> 
> If you wish to affect my entire city, you will need 10 350kt nukes. And even this is only at 3psi. Most commercial structures and large apartment buildings will still survive. If you want to achieve at least 90% destruction, you will need more than 10 350kt nukes.
> 
> Even if the entire city is destroyed, there's still 1.3 billion people left in the country. Even if all 8 major metros are destroyed, there's still 1.3 billion people left, the power of rounding off. Even if me and my family are dead, there will always be people available to rebuild.



your casual word play on something as ugly as a nuclear strike 
speaks of your immaturity if not lack of respect for life.

a small strike on waterways, and the whole population will die of hunger due to radioactive water for irrigation and drinking.

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## Dazzler




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## Areesh

MIRauf said:


> @randomradio is just "feelin' froggy" for conflict/war, but like rest of his country men, he lacks the will/resolve to "leap."


He is a clown. 

A perfect example of low IQ and feeling of foolish superiority that exists superiority that exists today in India


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## krash

randomradio said:


> No, destroying Delhi or Mumbai or the other metro cities does not constitute MAD. Those cities will just get rebuilt again.



This is the stupidest statement anyone has ever made on the matter. 



randomradio said:


> Funnily enough, one 60kt nuke will destroy my entire residential district, but that's only a tiny part of the total size of my city. The damage with 3 psi overpressure (the max at which residential houses can collapse) extends to a diameter of 8Km only whereas the major cities are as much as 80-120Km in diameter. In simple terms, a 60kt nuke can destroy less than 1/100th of a metro city with only 3 psi, and that's at the lower scale of the actual size of the urban area of the metro cities.
> 
> If you wish to affect my entire city, you will need 10 350kt nukes. And even this is only at 3psi. Most commercial structures and large apartment buildings will still survive. If you want to achieve at least 90% destruction, you will need more than 10 350kt nukes.
> 
> Even if the entire city is destroyed, there's still 1.3 billion people left in the country. Even if all 8 major metros are destroyed, there's still 1.3 billion people left, the power of rounding off. Even if me and my family are dead, there will always be people available to rebuild.



Pardon, this is the stupidest statement ever made on the matter.



randomradio said:


> There are two types of explosions based on height. Air burst and surface burst.
> 
> Air burst kills people. Surface burst creates fallout. You can only choose between the two for each bomb.
> 
> Most city bursting nukes are detonated at great heights. When this happens the pressure extends to a large area and destroys buildings due to overpressure. Most people die in the initial explosion, and due to debris falling on them. Those who survive are irradiated, but are likely buried under debris anyway. Pretty much everybody in the blast zone burns. But fallout is minimum since there is no actual contact with the earth. Only a small amount of radioactive material is ejected into the atmosphere and this slowly decays over time, mostly harmless.
> 
> When it comes to surface burst, the area destroyed is significantly lesser and the casualties are much lower. But there is contact with the earth. So the radioactive material mixes with the earth and is thrown high up in the air. A large amount of earth is now radioactive, this is what we call fallout. The fallout rises up with the mushroom cloud and has the potential of blocking the sun. But here's the catch, the nuke has to be upwards of 2MT or more in order for the mushroom to reach the stratosphere and block the sun. 20kt, 60kt, 100kt, 200kt, 450kt etc cannot create a mushroom cloud that's big enough to reach the stratosphere.
> 
> Basically, what happens with small nukes is the fallout simply falls back to the earth around the target area. And this process takes time, so most of the radiation is already pretty weak by the time it falls back and begins to affect people. Normally, before 70 hours is up, most radiation has become harmless.
> 
> Normally you would use a combination of air burst and surface burst when you attack a city. But in the India-Pak context, the nukes are so small and so few in number that the effects are highly localised, not global. And when I say localised, it is quite literally around the target area. You can see the pictures of Hiroshima that I posted. Even the blast zone was occupied very quickly.
> 
> Some people will fool you into believing that farms will be permanently destroyed, rivers will be irradiated etc. But nukes are too weak to do all that. Even if you use 15MT nukes, it's not as bad as it's made out to be, because you are most likely using far too few such nukes for it to matter in the long run.
> 
> An extraordinary amount of effort is required to block out the sun, and it's likely even the US and Russia combined do not have that kind of firepower. To create the kind of effect people generally talk about, you need something like a supervolcano erupting, and even then there's no guarantee that it can block the sun. And a supervolcano is hundreds of times more powerful than all the nukes in the world combined.
> 
> To put it in perspective, if you take all the nukes in the world today, and then put them all together in one single nuke and then multiply the yield by a further 100 times, you will not even create 1/100th the impact of the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs. All those nukes multiplied by 100 will barely be powerful enough to match an earthquake with a score of 10 on the Richter Scale.
> 
> We are still hundreds of years away from creating a usable planet killing weapon.



..........


Anyway, I know it's Off Topic but for those who want to understand the menace of a nuclear exchange in South Asia,

https://www.ippnw.org/pdf/mgs/6-1-wilson.pdf
https://www.ndu.edu.pk/issra/issra_...The-Probablities-of-Nuc-War-in-South-Asia.pdf
https://thediplomat.com/2013/12/the-devastating-effects-of-nuclear-war-in-south-asia/


OT:

Are there any official statements on the time frame that we are looking at for the new Erieyes?


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## Dazzler

ZDK-03A undergoing trials in China, seen here at CFTE..

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## Safriz

randomradio said:


> Dude, your country threatens to kill us every other week. And these threats come from your highest corridors of power.
> 
> 
> 
> Completely wrong. You can use the combined arsenal of the US and Russia on just the Ganga and the river will clean itself through natural water flow in a matter of months.


when did Pakistan threaten to kill all indians?

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## Dazzler

Why is this troll allowed to ruin perfectly fine threads from time to time? 

@Arsalan @Oscar and others, please take note.

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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

randomradio said:


> Nope. These are actual ground realities.
> 
> This is the absolute limit of what one Pakistani 60kt nuke, if it exists, can do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So one can imagine how many nukes are actually necessary to destroy just one mega city.
> 
> People here do not even understand what MAD really is.
> 
> 
> 
> The first link is pretty general, people die when nukes are used, yes.
> The second link has no relevance to this.
> The third link is pure unadulterated nonsense that defies logic.


its not effects of nuclear blast only. radiations and other effect even of same single bomb will effect whole region.


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## Dazzler




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## AsifIjaz

As per AFM Jan 19 edition.... and I quote "According to chinese source, CETC has allegedly been unable to provide the required maintenance, repair and overhaul for the PAF's fleet of ZDK-03s. while CETC is a systems integrator company, CATIC is now responsible for the upkeep of these aircraft" Unquote.
Whats the story behind this news. We have been hearing that ZDK-03s are more capable and that paf is all happy and contended by its performance. Any got any more details regarding this???


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## The Diplomat

Does at least one Pakistani AWACS operate 24/7?


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## Dazzler

The Diplomat said:


> Does at least one Pakistani AWACS operate 24/7?



Here in Karachi, ZDKs roam almost each day, often early morning.

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## Zephyrus

The Diplomat said:


> Does at least one Pakistani AWACS operate 24/7?


I have seen Erieye flying high above Rwp more than once, I might have some pics as well, will need to look.

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## Maxpane

is paf buying another oone?


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## Tank131

With 4 Erieye amd another 3 on order alomg with the ZDK-03, Pakistan has the 5th largest AWAC fleet of any country behind USA, China, Russia and Japan. 


Maxpane said:


> is paf buying another oone?

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## ziaulislam

Tank131 said:


> With 4 Erieye amd another 3 on order alomg with the ZDK-03, Pakistan has the 5th largest AWAC fleet of any country behind USA, China, Russia and Japan.


I doubt the erieye order


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## Trailer23

Been discussed in the past..., but once again - I love the (new) *SAAB GlobalEye*.

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## aziqbal

Pakistan would need 16 x AWACS for continuous cover 

4 in each sector, 1 in the air, one ready to take off, one in maintenance and one on shake down after mission 

even then there would be huge gaps due to failures but never the less give good situation awareness not to mention cost 

Pakistan should add more KJ-500 to the fleet

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## Nasr

aziqbal said:


> Pakistan would need 16 x AWACS for continuous cover
> 
> 4 in each sector, 1 in the air, one ready to take off, one in maintenance and one on shake down after mission
> 
> even then there would be huge gaps due to failures but never the less give good situation awareness not to mention cost
> 
> Pakistan should add more KJ-500 to the fleet



I thought that there was an intent to buy more AWACS, the new KJ-500s. Is there any credibility to this report?

You are correct that Pakistan Air Force would most certainly require more AWACS in order to have all round coverage, 24/7.


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## Liquidmetal

Trailer23 said:


> Been discussed in the past..., but once again - I love the (new) *SAAB GlobalEye*.


Apparently we have ordered 4 more erieye systesm which will be intehtated onto the platorm by our PAF engineers, why did we not buy the GlobalEye system instead, would have enhanced our current system many times over. Always feel that PAF are a little slow on the uptake. I know money is an issue but we have already ordered 4 erieye why not just a bit more and have the latest and greatest option available.

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## Path-Finder

Liquidmetal said:


> Apparently we have ordered 4 more erieye systesm which will be intehtated onto the platorm by our PAF engineers, why did we not buy the GlobalEye system instead, would have enhanced our current system many times over. Always feel that PAF are a little slow on the uptake. I know money is an issue but we have already ordered 4 erieye why not just a bit more and have the latest and greatest option available.



Pakistan has maritime patrol aircraft and specific SIGINT/ELINT aircraft too. so maybe they just want more AWA&C

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## Beast

AsifIjaz said:


> As per AFM Jan 19 edition.... and I quote "According to chinese source, CETC has allegedly been unable to provide the required maintenance, repair and overhaul for the PAF's fleet of ZDK-03s. while CETC is a systems integrator company, CATIC is now responsible for the upkeep of these aircraft" Unquote.
> Whats the story behind this news. We have been hearing that ZDK-03s are more capable and that paf is all happy and contended by its performance. Any got any more details regarding this???


A pile of BS by foreign source always trying to undermined Sino- Pakistan R/S. They are billions of crap news and hated article on JF-17 claiming it to be junk or even worst than Mig-21 Bison. Guess what? Action speaks louder.

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## AsifIjaz

This is what i have heard through a few friends in af... 
But afm in general and alan warne in particular isusuallya credible source for news coming from paf.. Hence my question.
There is nothing wrong in having issues with induction and assimilation of a new product. It always takes time. I only had concerns with the wording used in the report.


Beast said:


> A pile of BS by foreign source always trying to undermined Sino- Pakistan R/S. They are billions of crap news and hated article on JF-17 claiming it to be junk or even worst than Mig-21 Bison. Guess what? Action speaks louder.



Sent from my E6633 using Defence.pk mobile app


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## Beast

AsifIjaz said:


> This is what i have heard through a few friends in af...
> But afm in general and alan warne in particular isusuallya credible source for news coming from paf.. Hence my question.
> There is nothing wrong in having issues with induction and assimilation of a new product. It always takes time. I only had concerns with the wording used in the report.
> 
> Sent from my E6633 using Defence.pk mobile app


Hi Alan warne too heard from rumour. Then Remember the BS about inferior VT-4 tank which many here claim to have credible sources but end up as winner for PA new MBT contender? AVIC is the designer and manufacturer for the AWACS. We Chinese don't do a shabby job for our products especially it's something we made by ourselves. Propee maintenance will be part of the process. There are many western and india media in disguise as others always try to undermined China achievement. I have my reliable sources from Chinese forum and close associate from AVIC. I can confirmed there is no such nonsense of problem from ZDK-03 regards to maintenance. See how JF-17 is bad mouth as junk from start until now where it is combat proven , more or less tells u who u shall believe.

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## Ali_Baba

The PAF AEW&C earnt their keep over the last few weeks for sure !! Excellent purchase at the right time and working with the JF17's, they left no dignity to the IAF.

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## denel

Ali_Baba said:


> The PAF AEW&C earnt their keep over the last few weeks for sure !! Excellent purchase at the right time and working with the JF17's, they left no dignity to the IAF.


What will be interesting which AEW aircraft were involved- if jf17 then the chinese ones had a big role to play.

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## Beast

denel said:


> What will be interesting which AEW aircraft were involved- if jf17 then the chinese ones had a big role to play.



https://tiananmenstremendousachievements.wordpress.com/tag/zdk-03/






Only these can datalink with JF-17. Erieye with western system cannot datalink with JF-17. The reason why JF-17 is send instead of F-16 to do the interception at LOC is becos of ZDK-03. These Chinese AWACS radar is much powerful than the one on Erieye and can scan 360 degrees. While Erieye cant and with blind spots.

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## Imran Khan

Beast said:


> https://tiananmenstremendousachievements.wordpress.com/tag/zdk-03/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only these can datalink with JF-17. Erieye with western system cannot datalink with JF-17. The reason why JF-17 is send instead of F-16 to do the interception at LOC is becos of ZDK-03. These Chinese AWACS radar is much powerful than the one on Erieye and can scan 360 degrees. While Erieye cant and with blind spots.


we send thunder for check might of our friendship . its turned very strong in results

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## Beast

Imran Khan said:


> we send thunder for check might of our friendship . its turned very strong in results


I will not be surprised, ZDK-03 radar is the one that guide the JF-17 BVRAAM to down the Su-3MKI and Mig-21 bison.

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## Mentee

Imran Khan said:


> we send thunder for check might of our friendship . its turned very strong in results



Thank me latter

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## denel

Mentee said:


> Thank me latter
> 
> View attachment 543821


Well let us not thank him ... was it not his predecessor who started this program?

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## Ali_Baba

denel said:


> Well let us not thank him ... was it not his predecessor who started this program?



Mushy split the buy of 7(8?) erieyes to 4 and 4 of each type.

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## Beast

Mentee said:


> Thank me latter
> 
> View attachment 543821


Musharraf admit the purchase was a gamble but turn out to be a great investment as it's performance is outstanding. Many Pakistanis until now still believe Erieye is better than ZDK-03 which is not true.

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## denel

Ali_Baba said:


> Mushy split the buy of 7(8?) erieyes to 4 and 4 of each type.


Yes, that was a good decision; never put eggs into one basket.


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## Mentee

Beast said:


> Musharraf admit the purchase was a gamble but turn out to be a great investment as it's performance is outstanding. Many Pakistanis until now still believe Erieye is better than ZDK-03 which is not true.



Sigh! The airforce Generals canceled the j10 done deal out of jealousy

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## MastanKhan

Mentee said:


> Sigh! The airforce Generals canceled the j10 done deal out of jealousy


hi,

If you listen to Air Marshall Latif's inerview---he talks about pakistan's influence in the upgrades to the J10.

According to AM Latif---the chinese did not have the capability to build what Paf was asking for what was to be in the JF17---but he had full confidence in the chinese engineering capabilities and at the speed at which chinese engineering capability was advancing---so he kept pushing forward---.

The chinese kept providing what the Latif's team asked for and the reward they got back in return was Paf's input in the design upgrade of the J10 from Paf's input---.

Paf has stuck to the JF17---as it is its baby---but they need to get other aircraft---like the J10 C's to fill in the hole---.

Looking at what has happened---Paf needs at least 450 to 500 front line fighter / strike aircraft---. The Jf17's alone won't cut it---.

The US will now think of some kind of sanctions regarding the use of the F16's as india will go crying to big daddy---.

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## khanasifm

When paf ordered they ordered more saab awacs and not Chinese so it’s obvious


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## Beast

khanasifm said:


> When paf ordered they ordered more saab awacs and not Chinese so it’s obvious


LOL.. Another delusion. Can Saab AWACS datalink with JF-17? So what does it order got to prove Saab AWACS is better? It order is just to replace the few destroyed by terrorist.

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## Dazzler

Beast said:


> LOL.. Another delusion. Can Saab AWACS datalink with JF-17? So what does it order got to prove Saab AWACS is better? It order is just to replace the few destroyed by terrorist.



All assets are now equipped with indigenous solutions like link 17 and rtdl. Datalink is not an issue as it was 5 years ago. Zdk does offer longer search range and more sea search modes. A handy asset for PAF.

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> What will be interesting which AEW aircraft were involved- if jf17 then the chinese ones had a big role to play.


it will be combined AWAC with Link 17 a proprietary system


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## ice_man

MastanKhan said:


> hi,
> 
> If you listen to Air Marshall Latif's inerview---he talks about pakistan's influence in the upgrades to the J10.
> 
> According to AM Latif---the chinese did not have the capability to build what Paf was asking for what was to be in the JF17---but he had full confidence in the chinese engineering capabilities and at the speed at which chinese engineering capability was advancing---so he kept pushing forward---.
> 
> The chinese kept providing what the Latif's team asked for and the reward they got back in return was Paf's input in the design upgrade of the J10 from Paf's input---.
> 
> Paf has stuck to the JF17---as it is its baby---but they need to get other aircraft---like the J10 C's to fill in the hole---.
> 
> Looking at what has happened---Paf needs at least 450 to 500 front line fighter / strike aircraft---. The Jf17's alone won't cut it---.
> 
> The US will now think of some kind of sanctions regarding the use of the F16's as india will go crying to big daddy---.



The story is the same as it was back in 2009 or 2010. 9 years have passed and you have been saying it Mastan that time to move on from Mirage IIIs and F7pgs. but nothing has been done.

No one will sell us frontline equipment until the MMRCA is complete. As every major player wants to sell to India first. Including the swedes. Due to their order being much bigger. 


Secondly, Money constraints on our dismal economy make any good purchase difficult. 

Purchasing the SAAB EREYIE was a master stroke in 2006. Sadly we lost 1 to realize its true worth. 

Our Airforce planners are asleep at the controls of this airforce and sadly no one is their to wake them up from their slumber. 

regards, 

Ice man

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## Awan68

ice_man said:


> The story is the same as it was back in 2009 or 2010. 9 years have passed and you have been saying it Mastan that time to move on from Mirage IIIs and F7pgs. but nothing has been done.
> 
> No one will sell us frontline equipment until the MMRCA is complete. As every major player wants to sell to India first. Including the swedes. Due to their order being much bigger.
> 
> 
> Secondly, Money constraints on our dismal economy make any good purchase difficult.
> 
> Purchasing the SAAB EREYIE was a master stroke in 2006. Sadly we lost 1 to realize its true worth.
> 
> Our Airforce planners are asleep at the controls of this airforce and sadly no one is their to wake them up from their slumber.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Ice man


The Airforce just caught an enemy thrice its size with its pants down so they know what they are doing. When economic outlook improves in an year or two, we can go for a couple squadrons of J10C on loan basis(if chinese agree). In the mean time maximum resources need to be spent on the production of upcoming block 3 and the succesfull completion of project AZM.

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## aziqbal

Erieye was flying out of Kamra 

There is not doubt it was used in the operation 

Erieye can see speed boats in rivers and canals from over 100km 

It’s a very good system 

ZDK-03 no doubt it also a fine unit 

AWACS gives Situational Awareness that gives you knowledge and based on the knowledge you make a decision 

The high command no doubt used all thier assets to vector in the JF17 

A well placed and perfectly timed BVR missile finished the job 

This is a text book example of how you do things 

You cannot credit the PAF enough on this especially we told them we are coming and they were ready and expecting

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## mikaal

i have got 2 questions ...can the AWACS RADAR BE JAMMED ?OR AWACS can be sent fake signals


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## Beast

mikaal said:


> i have got 2 questions ...can the AWACS RADAR BE JAMMED ?OR AWACS can be sent fake signals


AWACS radar can be disrupted or confused. For example instead of few dozens of target, you will end up with hundred of targets on screen which make real ID of targets impossible.

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## mikaal

Beast said:


> AWACS radar can be disrupted or confused. For example instead of few dozens of target, you will end up with hundred of targets on screen which make real ID of targets impossible.


but then is there any way to counter it ..


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## Dil Pakistan

aziqbal said:


> Erieye was flying out of Kamra
> 
> You cannot credit the PAF enough on this *especially we told them we are coming and they were ready and expecting*



I would really like to understand the red font part little more.

1). How was this done?

2). What was the logic behind this?

3). Why a surprise attack was not a better idea?

@Windjammer; @Bilal Khan 777


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## Pied Piper

My understanding is that the PAF have the following AWACS aircraft:

4 x ZDK-03
4 x Saab Erieye 
plus an order for 3 more Erieye
that's 11 in total and give the PAF significant situational awareness.

to complement this, PAF needs to purchase electronic warfare aircraft/ signal inteligence etc....

this would further enhance its capabilities and will deter a would be adversary!


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## LeGenD

mikaal said:


> but then is there any way to counter it ..


Any good AWACS radar system is designed, and programmed, to detect a wide range of potential targets by default (signature libraries), and to distinguish true targets from false targets (signature libraries again). Since potential threats evolve over time, it is important to keep the radar system up-to-date accordingly, or to develop a new (superior) radar system.

Americans have fielded a vast surveillance network across the world (spaceborne in large part) to capture signatures of military hardware of other countries, and continue to update their 'signature libraries' on 24/7 basis. This treasure-trove of data is used to inform their radar systems from time-to-time.

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## Rafi

ice_man said:


> The story is the same as it was back in 2009 or 2010. 9 years have passed and you have been saying it Mastan that time to move on from Mirage IIIs and F7pgs. but nothing has been done.
> 
> No one will sell us frontline equipment until the MMRCA is complete. As every major player wants to sell to India first. Including the swedes. Due to their order being much bigger.
> 
> 
> Secondly, Money constraints on our dismal economy make any good purchase difficult.
> 
> Purchasing the SAAB EREYIE was a master stroke in 2006. Sadly we lost 1 to realize its true worth.
> 
> Our Airforce planners are asleep at the controls of this airforce and sadly no one is their to wake them up from their slumber.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Ice man



BS.


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## batmannow

MastanKhan said:


> hi,
> 
> If you listen to Air Marshall Latif's inerview---he talks about pakistan's influence in the upgrades to the J10.
> 
> According to AM Latif---the chinese did not have the capability to build what Paf was asking for what was to be in the JF17---but he had full confidence in the chinese engineering capabilities and at the speed at which chinese engineering capability was advancing---so he kept pushing forward---.
> 
> The chinese kept providing what the Latif's team asked for and the reward they got back in return was Paf's input in the design upgrade of the J10 from Paf's input---.
> 
> Paf has stuck to the JF17---as it is its baby---but they need to get other aircraft---like the J10 C's to fill in the hole---.
> 
> Looking at what has happened---Paf needs at least 450 to 500 front line fighter / strike aircraft---. The Jf17's alone won't cut it---.
> 
> The US will now think of some kind of sanctions regarding the use of the F16's as india will go crying to big daddy---.


Yea, we need SU35 at least 2 sqdrns and J10s 4 to 5 Sqdrns with PL15s and some better avionices and RADAR mounts then we can hve a punch to any one from any side tryin to commin into our areo space but then we need Good numbers of high range newer gen of anti aircraft missiles on the grounds


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## Rafi

Dil Pakistan said:


> I would really like to understand the red font part little more.
> 
> 1). How was this done?
> 
> 2). What was the logic behind this?
> 
> 3). Why a surprise attack was not a better idea?
> 
> @Windjammer; @Bilal Khan 777



Classified, never going to be revealed, suffice to say all assets and different levels of Intel used, friendly country helped, for which we are thankful.

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## batmannow

mikaal said:


> i have got 2 questions ...can the AWACS RADAR BE JAMMED ?OR AWACS can be sent fake signals


But when the data language of the Chinese AWACS is not the regular data language its dam, dam hard to deploy any kind of fake data umbrella against it


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## Jinn Baba

Dil Pakistan said:


> I would really like to understand the red font part little more.
> 
> 1). How was this done?
> 
> 2). What was the logic behind this?
> 
> 3). Why a surprise attack was not a better idea?
> 
> @Windjammer; @Bilal Khan 777



1) DG ISPR press briefing following Indian attack.

2) To satisfy own public and put the enemy on the defensive.

3) It was a surprise attack. The Indians themselves accepted they didnt expect (despite warning) for PAF to attack so soon and in broad daylight. PAF tactics and the capability of PAF aircraft also came as a surprise to them. 

And look what has happened since PAFs surprise - where is the IAF now? Where is their aggressive posturing? Why are they now crying over not having Rafale?

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## batmannow

ice_man said:


> The story is the same as it was back in 2009 or 2010. 9 years have passed and you have been saying it Mastan that time to move on from Mirage IIIs and F7pgs. but nothing has been done.
> 
> No one will sell us frontline equipment until the MMRCA is complete. As every major player wants to sell to India first. Including the swedes. Due to their order being much bigger.
> 
> 
> Secondly, Money constraints on our dismal economy make any good purchase difficult.
> 
> Purchasing the SAAB EREYIE was a master stroke in 2006. Sadly we lost 1 to realize its true worth.
> 
> Our Airforce planners are asleep at the controls of this airforce and sadly no one is their to wake them up from their slumber.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Ice man


And you are tellin all that even after looking at RAFEAL deal Indians having with France?



Jinn Baba said:


> 1) DG ISPR press briefing following Indian attack.
> 
> 2) To satisfy own public and put the enemy on the defensive.
> 
> 3) It was a surprise attack. The Indians themselves accepted they didnt expect (despite warning) for PAF to attack so soon and in broad daylight. PAF tactics and the capability of PAF aircraft also came as a surprise to them.
> 
> And look what has happened since PAFs surprise - where is the IAF now? Where is their aggressive posturing? Why are they now crying over not having Rafale?


Cause thy just got the knowledge that, the JF thunder abilities and capabilities they knew was differnt what they have faced and the shock of life time came with PL15s deadly strike

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## TOPGUN

Pied Piper said:


> My understanding is that the PAF have the following AWACS aircraft:
> 
> 4 x ZDK-03
> 4 x Saab Erieye
> plus an order for 3 more Erieye
> that's 11 in total and give the PAF significant situational awareness.
> 
> to complement this, PAF needs to purchase electronic warfare aircraft/ signal inteligence etc....
> 
> this would further enhance its capabilities and will deter a would be adversary!



PAF has 3 Falcon DA-20 ( Called the Blinders ) aircraft for electronic warfare / EW Radar jamming.

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## syed_yusuf

TOPGUN said:


> PAF has 3 Falcon DA-20 ( Called the Blinders ) aircraft for electronic warfare / EW Radar jamming.



what about king air 350 EW , i think 2 is with army and 2 with PAF

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## TOPGUN

syed_yusuf said:


> what about king air 350 EW , i think 2 is with army and 2 with PAF



Good catch, I am not sure about the PAF but yes PA has them !!

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## Cornered Tiger

and PN has 1 Hawker 850XP

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## Dazzler

Pied Piper said:


> My understanding is that the PAF have the following AWACS aircraft:
> 
> 4 x ZDK-03
> 4 x Saab Erieye
> plus an order for 3 more Erieye
> that's 11 in total and give the PAF significant situational awareness.
> 
> to complement this, PAF needs to purchase electronic warfare aircraft/ signal inteligence etc....
> 
> this would further enhance its capabilities and will deter a would be adversary!



All 4 zdks will get upgraded radar and sensors as planned. One is being upgraded in China.

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## Pied Piper

TOPGUN said:


> PAF has 3 Falcon DA-20 ( Called the Blinders ) aircraft for electronic warfare / EW Radar jamming.


Excellent , as these are essential in establishing air corridors in a heavy defended air space/ground.

Pakistan needs to purchase more, so that they can carry out task in various sector of its airspace .
AWACS/special electronic warfare aircraft - network centric warfare environment would play a crucial part in any future conflict. This is an area where pakistan needs to increase its inventory.
In addition, it needs to purchase Cost effective additional aircraft, such as the Chinese J-10c to supplement its Jf-17 and F-16 aircraft.
Due to budget constraints - it should make its F-7p and related aircraft BVR capable. The aircraft will get the extra support from the AWACS aircraft. This is purely an interim measure - until economy improves so that better aircraft can be purchased.

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## Thorough Pro

We told them we will retaliate, we did not tell them we will be coming to such and such place in such and such planes at such and such time. 



Dil Pakistan said:


> I would really like to understand the red font part little more.
> 
> 1). How was this done?
> 
> 2). What was the logic behind this?
> 
> 3). Why a surprise attack was not a better idea?
> 
> @Windjammer; @Bilal Khan 777

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## ice_man

Rafi said:


> BS.



really. 

tell me which front line fighter is available for pakistan to purchase, If it intends to buy tomorrow. Get your head out of the sand. No one will risk losing the 126 plane order of the Indians. for an order of probably 18 jets. 

its all about the money at the end of the day

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## Rafi

ice_man said:


> really.
> 
> tell me which front line fighter is available for pakistan to purchase, If it intends to buy tomorrow. Get your head out of the sand. No one will risk losing the 126 plane order of the Indians. for an order of probably 18 jets.
> 
> its all about the money at the end of the day



Even now we are able to buy top line Western systems even from the US, 2 things stopping us economy and our desire for 5th Gen, which without strings is only going to come from our Chinese friends.

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## ghazi52

Only from Chinese friends.


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## ice_man

what is the update on this news:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...btain-three-more-saab-2000-aewc-aircr-437732/


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## Jinn Baba

rollingrock said:


> Time to ditch US system. The victory on Feb 27 was won by Chinese system. The VIPERS PAF have are useless without proper AWACS, as proven on Feb 27. But...obviously this is Pakistan's decision.



The Erieye in PAF are there for the F16s.

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## zulu

Rafi said:


> Even now we are able to buy top line Western systems even from the US, 2 things stopping us economy and our desire for 5th Gen, which without strings is only going to come from our Chinese friends.


Or Turkey or may be not from anyone as seems selling 5th gen not going to be easy in future(for ref check how US attach f-35 and s-400 deals for Turkey).Salute to those who anticipate that and initiate Project AZM


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## Tank131

rollingrock said:


> I'm aware of that. ERIEYE is way less capable compared to ZDK-03 though. If F-16s can't be integrated into ZDK-03, they're useless.


There is zero evidence of that. If that were the case, PAF wouldnt be buying 3 more. PAF will be the largest single operator of erieye after that deal.

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## Zephyrus

An Erieye around 30k feet above Rawalpindi around an year back

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## Keysersoze

rollingrock said:


> I'm aware of that. ERIEYE is way less capable compared to ZDK-03 though. If F-16s can't be integrated into ZDK-03, they're useless.


No actually it's not. The ZDKs have their uses but the Erieye is a better platform.


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## Zephyrus

Keysersoze said:


> No actually it's not. The ZDKs have their uses but the Erieye is a better platform.


Could it be the fact that we were planning on going for a western radar for thunder that's why we were getting more erieyes?
There hasn't been any more headway on this acquisition since we found out that the KLJ7A actually suits us better?


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## Keysersoze

Subxer0 said:


> Could it be the fact that we were planning on going for a western radar for thunder that's why we were getting more erieyes?
> There hasn't been any more headway on this acquisition since we found out that the KLJ7A actually suits us better?


they signed the deal how much more headway do you want? The deliveries are in progress. I like the idea that they have enough platforms for 24hrs a day coverage if they need it for a short while (2 in the air) and the same with the zdk.


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## syed_yusuf

rollingrock said:


> That depends on what types of fighters ERIEYES pair with. I used to believe that China integrated JF-17 with ERIEYES, but I think I have to change my mind after the air conflicts on Feb 26 and Feb 27.



Pakistan integrated link17 to all it's fighter so communication is seemless

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## aziqbal

I have heard both Erieye and ZDK-03 fly 

Only thing I would say is that the Erieye is very quite when flying the engines are super quite you can hardly hear it 

The ZDK-03 is louder 

That does not mean anything in terms of capability just a observation


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## Tank131

Subxer0 said:


> Could it be the fact that we were planning on going for a western radar for thunder that's why we were getting more erieyes?
> There hasn't been any more headway on this acquisition since we found out that the KLJ7A actually suits us better?


The deal is signed. What headway are you talking about? 

The notion that ZDK-03 is superior is not supported by any verifiable paper or article. But neither is the reverse. We only need look at PAF actions to see which they are more satisfied with. They could easily have acquired more ZDK-03 or perhaps a newer awac from china but went back to SAAB for another 3 erieye. Why would they go spend more money on an inferior platform especially after SAAB gave them grief about helping repair the previously damaged Erieyes? Probably they find it the better system. Maybe more knowledgeable members can shed a little light?
@Windjammer @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Oscar

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## AsifIjaz

Alan warns did post in his mag i.e. afm, that paf was facing some peoblems with zdk..
The magazine does not elaborate it further.
One of our chinese colleague did refute it and i have no reasons to debate his goodwill or intentions but i would still like a rebutal or a news cutting from some official spokesperson in china or in paf.


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## TsAr

rollingrock said:


> There are many articles comparing ZDK-03 and SAAB2000, if you don't mind looking for them or can understand them. You don't need to be a scientist to know why ZDK-03 is superior. The reason PAF is acquiring more SAAB is they have too many F-16s to deal with, and F-16s can only talk to SAAB which is equipped with LINK16. The fact that SU30MKI was able to dodge AIM-120-C5 during the dog fight on Feb 27 can't say better.


What make you come to a conclusion that Amraam missed? Pakistan does have SAAB2000 which would have been used on 27th Feb if F-16 were used. 
There is a plausible reason for going for more SAAB2000 system, perhaps senior members can shed some light on it.


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## Fieldmarshal

aim-120 were fired on the 26th

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## Dazzler

@Dubious @Oscar @waz 

Please clean the thread. Some folks simply dont pay heed to the title.

Thanks

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## Dubious

Dazzler said:


> @Dubious @Oscar @waz
> 
> Please clean the thread. Some folks simply dont pay heed to the title.
> 
> Thanks


all 351 pages?

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## Cuirassier

When are the 3 Erieyes on order supposed to be delivered?


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## Dubious

@Tank131 @rollingrock @Falcon26 

1) Thread is about Pakistan take your personal matter elsewhere
2) Keep it civil 

Otherwise you shall be thread banned!

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## Tank131

Sorry @Dubious . Will do better. Im just tired of people coming here passing info with no evidence to back up claims. Then go and attack other members who challenge the claim or ask for evidence. If you dont know or someone corrects you or asks for more info, we dont need give edicts from on high. But @rollingrock i apologize for descending into incivility.

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## Keysersoze

ice_man said:


> what is the update on this news:
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...btain-three-more-saab-2000-aewc-aircr-437732/


https://quwa.org/2018/06/25/pakistans-erieye-aewc-follow-on-order-now-proceeding-2/

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## Shane

@Oscar @Windjammer @TOPGUN @Dazzler @messiach @MastanKhan @Khafee , 

Theoretically speaking, is it possible for an AEW&C or EW aircraft to assume the flight plan of a passenger jet and fly over (or close to) an otherwise hostile protected airspace, deep enough (or close enough), inconspicuously and then start providing EW cover to an ingress package on approach?

If so, what is the best way to counter such a possibility other than closing airways?

It should be possible to prove such an event if it occurs too, so are there international laws that forbid such misuse of passenger jet identity or is it still unchartered territory? 

After all, it is literally like putting the lives of other passenger jets in the vicinity or between hostile countries, in danger of getting shot.

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## GriffinsRule

Shane said:


> @Oscar @Windjammer @TOPGUN @Dazzler @messiach @MastanKhan @Khafee ,
> 
> Theoretically speaking, is it possible for an AEW&C or EW aircraft to assume the flight plan of a passenger jet and fly over (or close to) an otherwise hostile protected airspace, deep enough (or close enough), inconspicuously and then start providing EW cover to an ingress package on approach?
> 
> If so, what is the best way to counter such a possibility other than closing airways?
> 
> It should be possible to prove such an event if it occurs too, so are there international laws that forbid such misuse of passenger jet identity or is it still unchartered territory?
> 
> After all, it is literally like putting the lives of other passenger jets in the vicinity or between hostile countries, in danger of getting shot.


No it is not possible. Civil aircraft have designated flight paths and those are communicated ahead of time. Also, it would be pretty easy to spot an aircraft deviating from said flight path not to mention a plethora of other means by which it would be caught.

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## MastanKhan

Shane said:


> @Oscar @Windjammer @TOPGUN @Dazzler @messiach @MastanKhan @Khafee ,
> 
> Theoretically speaking, is it possible for an AEW&C or EW aircraft to assume the flight plan of a passenger jet and fly over (or close to) an otherwise hostile protected airspace, deep enough (or close enough), inconspicuously and then start providing EW cover to an ingress package on approach?
> 
> If so, what is the best way to counter such a possibility other than closing airways?
> 
> It should be possible to prove such an event if it occurs too, so are there international laws that forbid such misuse of passenger jet identity or is it still unchartered territory?
> 
> After all, it is literally like putting the lives of other passenger jets in the vicinity or between hostile countries, in danger of getting shot.



Hi,

Yes it is---. A korean airliner was shot over russia a long time ago and a US congressman died in aircraft---.

The russians claimed that the korean aircraft would routinely navigate away from the flight route and fly over sensitive area---supposedly what was happening was another aircraft would be flying underneath the aircraft and spying over the russian military installations.

The russians shot the airliner down---.

So---yes they can fly--but won't fly---.

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## nomi007

PAF needs to add reconnaissance / ISR aircrafts


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## TsAr

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes it is---. A korean airliner was shot over russia a long time ago and a US congressman died in aircraft---.
> 
> The russians claimed that the korean aircraft would routinely navigate away from the flight route and fly over sensitive area---supposedly what was happening was another aircraft would be flying underneath the aircraft and spying over the russian military installations.
> 
> The russians shot the airliner down---.
> 
> So---yes they can fly--but won't fly---.


True, Korean airliner deviated from his flight plan (it was flying in no fly zone ) and the crew was not aware of it even though there were obvious signs, Russian thought that is a USAF reconnaissance plane and shot it down.

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## messiach

On paper yes. Otherwise no. Sepearte designated platforms would be required for C-EWS which is recognisable. 



Shane said:


> @Oscar @Windjammer @TOPGUN @Dazzler @messiach @MastanKhan @Khafee ,
> 
> Theoretically speaking, is it possible for an AEW&C or EW aircraft to assume the flight plan of a passenger jet and fly over (or close to) an otherwise hostile protected airspace, deep enough (or close enough), inconspicuously and then start providing EW cover to an ingress package on approach?
> 
> If so, what is the best way to counter such a possibility other than closing airways?
> 
> It should be possible to prove such an event if it occurs too, so are there international laws that forbid such misuse of passenger jet identity or is it still unchartered territory?
> 
> After all, it is literally like putting the lives of other passenger jets in the vicinity or between hostile countries, in danger of getting shot.


----------



## Muhammad_Naveed44242

https://www.drakhta.com/2019/04/how-to-lose-weight-fast-in-week.html

https://www.drakhta.com/2019/04/pathan-ka-bacha-ahmad-shah.html


----------



## Shane

messiach said:


> On paper yes. Otherwise no. Sepearte designated platforms would be required for C-EWS which is recognisable.


Probably AEW&C was not the right term used. EW is what I meant but...


----------



## Fledgingwings

I heard the news PAF is getting more SAAB Awacs.


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## fatman17

Fledgingwings said:


> I heard the news PAF is getting more SAAB Awacs.


True, 3 additional systems

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## MIRauf

3 additional as, 4 ( 3 + 1 lost ) original , 3 (kits ) just received and 3 more on top of that or we discussing the 3 kits that were just received ? making a grand total of 10 ?


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## khanasifm

https://airforcesmonthly.keypublishing.com/2017/05/19/pakistan-to-get-more-erieyes/


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## ANG

khanasifm said:


> https://airforcesmonthly.keypublishing.com/2017/05/19/pakistan-to-get-more-erieyes/



Hi, one key point in the link above is the following:

"*The PAF ordered four Erieyes in 2005, and these were delivered during 2009-11. Under Project Vision, initiated in 2000, the PAF has built up its own indigenous C4I system couple with surveillance systems and surface-to-air weapons. Information datalinked from both the ZDK-03 and Erieye is merged at the PAF’s Air Defence HQ at Chaklala, to provide the PAF with a single recognised air picture.*"

I specifically remember reading an article in which one of the PAF Air Chiefs mentioned that the PAF had developed an internal system, where the ZDK-03 and Erieye could talk to all planes in the PAF. This should allay any fears that the Erieyes are only for the F-16s and the ZDK-03s only for the JF-17. I remember he said that it was based on relaying the data to ground stations and then relaying in back up. Yeah!

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## PurpleButcher

ANG said:


> * I remember he said that it was based on relaying the data to ground stations and then relaying in back up. Yeah!*



Any idea about the time delay caused by this longer route? Its good but in case of jet fighters every second is important!


----------



## messiach

'assume the flight plan of a passenger jet' is a far far cry. L & S band secondary ATC radars continuously interrogate transponders onboard the aircraft identifying AIC & ESC. Besides there would 2 signatures in the sky with identical AIC which will red alert the system.


Shane said:


> Probably AEW&C was not the right term used. EW is what I meant but...

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## Shane

messiach said:


> 'assume the flight plan of a passenger jet' is a far far cry. L & S band secondary ATC radars continuously interrogate transponders onboard the aircraft identifying AIC & ESC. Besides there would 2 signatures in the sky with identical AIC which will red alert the system.


My point in writing that post was about possibilities of breaking and bending the rules to achieve military objective in fooling enemy/hostile radars of approaching threats untill its too late.

I believe you are correct and going by the official rules and regulations.

However, a chartered private/passenger jet flying towards the border with all the confirming transponder/ATC/ID and call signs can still turn out to be a CIA Hercules with all its military communications equipment on board.

Yes, we can choose to believe the official regulations and those who can hack, bypass, ignore or simply trick the regulations all the time. 






...

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## messiach

OK. 


Shane said:


> My point in writing that post was about possibilities of breaking and bending the rules to achieve military objective in fooling enemy/hostile radars of approaching threats untill its too late.
> 
> I believe you are correct and going by the official rules and regulations.
> 
> However, a chartered private/passenger jet flying towards the border with all the confirming transponder/ATC/ID and call signs can still turn out to be a CIA Hercules with all its military communications equipment on board.
> 
> Yes, we can choose to believe the official regulations and those who can hack, bypass, ignore or simply trick the regulations all the time.
> 
> View attachment 558061
> 
> ...
> View attachment 558062


----------



## mshan44

Eyes on Enemy

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## Ahmet Pasha

Israel too dodged Russians and carried out an air raid using cover of a passenger air liner.


Shane said:


> My point in writing that post was about possibilities of breaking and bending the rules to achieve military objective in fooling enemy/hostile radars of approaching threats untill its too late.
> 
> I believe you are correct and going by the official rules and regulations.
> 
> However, a chartered private/passenger jet flying towards the border with all the confirming transponder/ATC/ID and call signs can still turn out to be a CIA Hercules with all its military communications equipment on board.
> 
> Yes, we can choose to believe the official regulations and those who can hack, bypass, ignore or simply trick the regulations all the time.
> 
> View attachment 558061
> 
> ...
> View attachment 558062

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## 1Paki$tani

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Israel too dodged Russians and carried out an air raid using cover of a passenger air liner.


Anybody remember Iranian passenger plane that was shotdown by USA. Apparent excuse was that Iran had stationed their F-14 at the same airport from where the passenger plane took off.

As the plane was in vicinity of fighter jet Amercian radar tracking tagged it with F14 and eventually it was shotdown over the gulf.

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## mingle

1Paki$tani said:


> Anybody remember Iranian passenger plane that was shotdown by USA. Apparent excuse was that Iran had stationed their F-14 at the same airport from where the passenger plane took off.
> 
> As the plane was in vicinity of fighter jet Amercian radar tracking tagged it with F14 and eventually it was shotdown over the gulf.


I remember that It shot down by ship missile


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Considering American track record.
They could be lying.


1Paki$tani said:


> Anybody remember Iranian passenger plane that was shotdown by USA. Apparent excuse was that Iran had stationed their F-14 at the same airport from where the passenger plane took off.
> 
> As the plane was in vicinity of fighter jet Amercian radar tracking tagged it with F14 and eventually it was shotdown over the gulf.


----------



## 1Paki$tani

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Considering American track record.
> They could be lying.



Possibly but the agreement that Iran and USA reached which led to payment did not apportion any blame.

But it is also possible for the radar to be confused especially back in late 80s given we are discussing the very same thing here of masking yourself.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Yah man.
There were no modern sensors and radars in 80s.


1Paki$tani said:


> Possibly but the agreement that Iran and USA reached which led to payment did not apportion any blame.
> 
> But it is also possible for the radar to be confused especially back in late 80s given we are discussing the very same thing here of masking yourself.


----------



## Imran Khan

mshan44 said:


> Eyes on Enemy
> View attachment 559003


049???????????????/ any info about this picture ? 049 was destroyed by terrorists i am watching it after many years . its recent or old image ?


----------



## syed_yusuf

Imran Khan said:


> 049???????????????/ any info about this picture ? 049 was destroyed by terrorists i am watching it after many years . its recent or old image ?


it must be new as there is a bulge under the belly

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## Imran Khan

syed_yusuf said:


> it must be new as there is a bulge under the belly


049 was wrriten off DBR sir


----------



## Readerdefence

Imran Khan said:


> 049 was wrriten off DBR sir


Hi IK is it a possibility to reassign the same number to a new bird 
Any info on it sir 
Thank you


----------



## khanasifm

The latest one has bulge under belly carrying additional equipment so may be this is old pic or not all were modified ??

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## Imran Khan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi IK is it a possibility to reassign the same number to a new bird
> Any info on it sir
> Thank you


this is what i want to know dear. but 049 is ok then why 09

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## TheTallGuy

Imran Khan said:


> this is what i want to know dear. but 049 is ok then why 09



Sir its photoshop - just look at where sr.no. is written on this pic and other pic.

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## GriffinsRule

TheTallGuy said:


> Sir its photoshop - just look at where sr.no. is written on this pic and other pic.


No its not a photoshop. Just the scheme has changed.

Case in point ... compare these two.


----------



## TheTallGuy

GriffinsRule said:


> No its not a photoshop. Just the scheme has changed.
> 
> Case in point ... compare these two.
> View attachment 560899
> 
> View attachment 560898



if it was destroyed how come we are seeing an upgraded example? with older scheme?


----------



## GriffinsRule

TheTallGuy said:


> if it was destroyed how come we are seeing an upgraded example? with older scheme?


Its an old picture.

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## Bratva

Imran Khan said:


> 049 was wrriten off DBR sir



The brand new 049 is probably the replaced SAAB AWAC that Pakistan purchased in 2017 to replace the destroyed AEWC and it was mentioned in MODP 2017-18 book a

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## GriffinsRule

Bratva said:


> The brand new 049 is probably the replaced SAAB AWAC that Pakistan purchased in 2017 to replace the destroyed AEWC and it was mentioned in MODP 2017-18 book a


PAF does not reuse serial numbers


----------



## Thorough Pro

Bullshit story, they shot it on purpose, knowing very well that it was a passenger plane in some weired retaliation of Russia shooting down a Japanese or Korean airliner earlier where US spy plane was using the same route as the airliner and Russians shot down the wrong plane.





1Paki$tani said:


> Anybody remember Iranian passenger plane that was shotdown by USA. Apparent excuse was that Iran had stationed their F-14 at the same airport from where the passenger plane took off.
> 
> As the plane was in vicinity of fighter jet Amercian radar tracking tagged it with F14 and eventually it was shotdown over the gulf.


----------



## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> PAF does not reuse serial numbers



No one reuse


----------



## mshan44



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## MIRauf

Like to see KJ-500's Radar or some newer variant radar mounted on A320 or C919 type jetliner, perhaps someday for PAF.

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## Tamiyah

MIRauf said:


> Like to see KJ-500's Radar or some newer variant radar mounted on A320 or C919 type jetliner, perhaps someday for PAF.


But we dont need any.

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## MIRauf

Tamiyah said:


> But we dont need any.



Ok.


----------



## Path-Finder

Tamiyah said:


> But we dont need any.


What makes you say that?


----------



## khanasifm

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 569841



Smoky engines ??


----------



## Dazzler

khanasifm said:


> Smoky engines ??



They are smokeless, this is occasional especially when the throttle is pushed.

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## MastanKhan

1Paki$tani said:


> Anybody remember Iranian passenger plane that was shotdown by USA. Apparent excuse was that Iran had stationed their F-14 at the same airport from where the passenger plane took off.
> 
> As the plane was in vicinity of fighter jet Amercian radar tracking tagged it with F14 and eventually it was shotdown over the gulf.



Hi,

The Iranian air bus was intentionally shot down by the commander of the US navy ship---. The hatred was high against the iranians---.

The air bus was climbing---it was showing as a passenger aircraft---no other aircraft were in the vicinity---yet the US navy commander ordered it to be shot down.

It was an Aegis class cruiser---so there was no chance of mistaking it for something else---. It was intentional on the part of the ship commander---.

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## Cornered Tiger

ANG said:


> Erieyes are only for the F-16s and the ZDK-03s only for the JF-17



PAF Erieyes have dual datalinks, Erieye can communicate to JFT as well as F-16 and ZDK-03 and vice versa.

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## Shabi1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The Iranian air bus was intentionally shot down by the commander of the US navy ship---. The hatred was high against the iranians---.
> 
> The air bus was climbing---it was showing as a passenger aircraft---no other aircraft were in the vicinity---yet the US navy commander ordered it to be shot down.
> 
> It was an Aegis class cruiser---so there was no chance of mistaking it for something else---. It was intentional on the part of the ship commander---.



There are no excuses for this, they should have double checked before firing.

This deserves a separate thread as it will derail this one but I suspect the US commander was also very jumpy from the fact that a year earlier Iraqi's used a modded Falcon 50 passenger jet to fire two exocets into one of their ships by mistake.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the...0-business-jet-almost-sank-a-us-navy-frigate/


----------



## Thorough Pro

Read the very first line of the post you quoted which says it was "intentional". If it was intentional then what is meant by no excuse and double checking? It was an intentional kill of a civilian airliner, and meant as such.



Shabi1 said:


> There are no excuses for this, they should have double checked before firing.
> 
> This deserves a separate thread as it will derail this one but I suspect the US commander was also very jumpy from the fact that a year earlier Iraqi's used a modded Falcon 50 passenger jet to fire two exocets into one of their ships by mistake.
> 
> https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the...0-business-jet-almost-sank-a-us-navy-frigate/


----------



## CHACHA"G"

so from this:




*To This:







*

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## Keysersoze

CHACHA"G" said:


> so from this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *To This:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Are you talking about the aerials?


----------



## Path-Finder

CHACHA"G" said:


> so from this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *To This:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



The aircraft has added capability of EW with those antennas.

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## Keysersoze

CHACHA"G" said:


> so from this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *To This:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Yeah slight fault is that I have found the first picture looking like this......

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## CHACHA"G"

Yes Sir


Keysersoze said:


> Are you talking about the aerials?



Here is your answer .


Path-Finder said:


> The aircraft has added capability of EW with those antennas.


----------



## Humble Analyst

Tamiyah said:


> But we dont need any.


But why
Do not need a better radar?


----------



## araz

Humble Analyst said:


> But why
> Do not need a better radar?


We do need an AESA radar on the K3s. There maybe a need for cockpit upgrade as well. However I am not well versed in this so other posters can help.
A


----------



## Dazzler

araz said:


> We do need an AESA radar on the K3s. There maybe a need for cockpit upgrade as well. However I am not well versed in this so other posters can help.
> A



K3 already has a glass cockpit

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## araz

Dazzler said:


> K3 already has a glass cockpit


Thank you. So now it is a case of conversion of PESA to AESA?
Regards
A


----------



## MIRauf

I thought one of the K-3 was in China for conversion / upgrade to AESA, however it also seems that PAF has opted to keep the rotating Disk System instead of fixed array like the KJ-500. ( Based on pictures seen so far. )


----------



## Dazzler

araz said:


> Thank you. So now it is a case of conversion of PESA to AESA?
> Regards
> A



True. At least one is in China for upgradation. Klc1 aesa radar it will be.

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## Shane

Shane said:


> @Oscar @Windjammer @TOPGUN @Dazzler @messiach @MastanKhan @Khafee ,
> 
> Theoretically speaking, is it possible for an AEW&C or EW aircraft to assume the flight plan of a passenger jet and fly over (or close to) an otherwise hostile protected airspace, deep enough (or close enough), inconspicuously and then start providing EW cover to an ingress package on approach?
> 
> If so, what is the best way to counter such a possibility other than closing airways?
> 
> It should be possible to prove such an event if it occurs too, so are there international laws that forbid such misuse of passenger jet identity or is it still unchartered territory?
> 
> After all, it is literally like putting the lives of other passenger jets in the vicinity or between hostile countries, in danger of getting shot.





Shane said:


> My point in writing that post was about possibilities of breaking and bending the rules to achieve military objective in fooling enemy/hostile radars of approaching threats untill its too late.
> 
> I believe you are correct and going by the official rules and regulations.
> 
> However, a chartered private/passenger jet flying towards the border with all the confirming transponder/ATC/ID and call signs can still turn out to be a CIA Hercules with all its military communications equipment on board.
> 
> Yes, we can choose to believe the official regulations and those who can hack, bypass, ignore or simply trick the regulations all the time.
> 
> View attachment 558061
> 
> ...
> View attachment 558062


@Oscar @Windjammer @TOPGUN @Dazzler @messiach @MastanKhan @Khafee
Does the following tweet has any significance with reference to the above posts made after earlier airspace closure?

Is the recent talk of closing airspace only to economically hurt Indian airliners only?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1165967883337441281

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## mshan44



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## LKJ86

New KJ-200





And maybe Look like that:




https://m.weibo.cn/2421484324/4411744434317322

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## LKJ86



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## Inception-06

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 577076



are all aircrafts in production ?


----------



## LKJ86

Inception-06 said:


> are all aircrafts in production ?


Some of them have stopped production.

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## nomi007



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## mshan44



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## khanasifm

The question is paf k-3 awacs is based on Chinese transport aircraft y-9, will paf add y-9 transport in future ? Paf has added multiple passenger version of Saab 2k, at least 2 may be 3 which helps in keeping pilot training and hours up


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## khanasifm

http://www.military-today.com/aircraft/y9.htm


----------



## khail007

MIRauf said:


> I thought one of the K-3 was in China for conversion / upgrade to AESA, however it also seems that PAF has opted to keep the rotating Disk System instead of fixed array like the KJ-500. ( Based on pictures seen so far. )


I am not an expert, but herd that AESA are not mechanical based radars. In above post, it appears that PAF is going for rotating disk with AESA.
Could someone explain, is there any advantage of such system - for knowledge.


----------



## MIRauf

I think they are keeping the rotating dish, however it doesn't have to rotate to work for AESA. I am not sure why PAF is opting for this version unless its dual array ( cheaper ) vs triple array AESA as seen on KJ-500.


----------



## khanasifm

Electronic beam shifting in vertical and horizontal plane giving 360 coverage 

In case of paf version aesa radar just shift or beam move up and down and rotation of mexhical dish provides horixatal coverage giving 360 degrees coverage 

Still aesa I think 

Mechanical means wear and tear vs electronics no moving parts so more reliable


----------



## khanasifm




----------



## khanasifm

https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2018/12/cetc-rolls-out-new-export-air-surveillance-radars/


----------



## khanasifm

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201903/18/WS5c8ef200a3106c65c34ef19d.html


----------



## khanasifm

CETC No. 14 Insitute "Silk Road Eye" AESA AEW radar detecting range increases at least one third, new abilities like key sector extending range search and high maneuvering target tracking are added.


----------



## MIRauf

Thank you for the photos to illustrate dual array, Not sure if Dual array provides 360 if not rotating, while triple array offers over-lap.

Agree with you on parts failure for moving dish.

Range increase is good addition too, should be comparable to ERIEYEs.


----------



## Haris Ali2140

Why doesn't PAF goes for bigger platforms with more operators on board and also radar for blind spots which can manage the situation more effectively???
@Windjammer @khanasifm @araz @Dazzler @MIRauf@Bilal Khan (Quwa)


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Why doesn't PAF goes for bigger platforms with more operators on board and also radar for blind spots which can manage the situation more effectively???
> @Windjammer @khanasifm @araz @Dazzler @MIRauf@Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Lack of options available within budget.

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## Haris Ali2140

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Lack of options available within budget.


After we install the 3 Erieye radars on Saab 2000 ourselves how difficult will it be to install the same system on other jets???


----------



## GriffinsRule

Haris Ali2140 said:


> After we install the 3 Erieye radars on Saab 2000 ourselves how difficult will it be to install the same system on other jets???


Very difficult and the rewards are not worth it. Saab did all the testing of airframes and radar integration already so we didnt need to. What you are proposing is a long term and expensive idea and also one that does not make any sense. We already have two different AEW&C aircraft in service and dont need to add a third type.

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## Haris Ali2140

GriffinsRule said:


> Very difficult and the rewards are not worth it. Saab did all the testing of airframes and radar integration already so we didnt need to. What you are proposing is a long term and expensive idea and also one that does not make any sense. We already have two different AEW&C aircraft in service and dont need to add a third type.


But a bigger platform will offer more data crunching abilities and help better manage the battlefield.

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## mshan44



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## Quwa

Haris Ali2140 said:


> After we install the 3 Erieye radars on Saab 2000 ourselves how difficult will it be to install the same system on other jets???


Because each Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C cost the PAF around $90 m (as the PAF absorbed all of the required infrastructure to operate it), which is a really good deal. A new AEW&C platform with new aircraft type would cost 2-3X that easily.

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## nomi007

Quwa said:


> Because each Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C cost the PAF around $90 m (as the PAF absorbed all of the required infrastructure to operate it), which is a really good deal. A new AEW&C platform with new aircraft type would cost 2-3X that easily.


Saab2000 is low cost battle proven proven aircraft
hope PN will also induct 2-3 swordfish in their inventory

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## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1182507519832444928
12????
@Quwa @Dazzler @Signalian

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## syed_yusuf

Haris Ali2140 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1182507519832444928
> 12????
> @Quwa @Dazzler @Signalian


12 or 10


----------



## Haris Ali2140

syed_yusuf said:


> 12 or 10


That's what I am asking.


----------



## SD 10

A question for the honorable members. A zdk-03 of Paf is going upgradation in China. will it be brought to kj500 standard?


----------



## Quwa

10: 4 Karakoram Eagles and 6 Erieyes.

Not aware of upgrades to the Karakoram Eagle; maybe, but no open source info to confirm it yet.

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## aliyusuf

Quwa said:


> 10: 4 Karakoram Eagles and 6 Erieyes.
> 
> Not aware of upgrades to the Karakoram Eagle; maybe, but no open source info to confirm it yet.


Is there any chance that the 3 additional Erieyes were the ER version? Because someone else stated it to be so. Your clarification would be appreciated.


----------



## Dazzler

SD 10 said:


> A question for the honorable members. A zdk-03 of Paf is going upgradation in China. will it be brought to kj500 standard?



Upgrades yes, kj500 standard, no.

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## Haris Ali2140

Dazzler said:


> Upgrades yes, kj500 standard, no.



Whats different between KJ-500 & ZDK-03(upgraded)???


----------



## Dazzler

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Whats different between KJ-500 & ZDK-03(upgraded)???



PLAAF vs PAF specific versions, radar, on board systems


----------



## Haris Ali2140

Dazzler said:


> PLAAF vs PAF specific versions, radar, on board systems


Are these any major differences???
Is upgraded ZDK-03 AESA???
Are they Erieye recently bought are ER versions???


----------



## MIRauf

Original ZDK-03 are PESA rotating Dish radars, KJ-500 is static AESA Radar. I am surprised to hear that upgrade of ZDK-03 is not that of KJ-500 AESA radar and related electronics or something very similar to PAF standards, something that I had assumed.

Well I guess we know what it means when you assume something.


----------



## Haris Ali2140

Does anyone know if Erieye and ZDK 03 have SIGNIT/ELINT capabilities???


----------



## Rafi

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Does anyone know if Erieye and ZDK 03 have SIGNIT/ELINT capabilities???



Yes and yes.

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## khanasifm

It’s aesa but to cover full 360 has rotating dish


The ZDK-03s have been developed to our specifications," says the air force. "It won't be an E-3C Sentry, but it will have the latest electronics and everything an AEW&C aircraft needs."

The Chinese-built aircraft will have an active electronically scanned array radar, and its open architecture electronics will allow for future developments and upgrades.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pakistan-to-receive-first-zdk-03-aewc-aircraft-350025/


https://www.defensenews.com/2015/02/28/pakistan-re-equips-squadron-with-aew-c-planes/

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## Shane

Shane said:


> @Oscar @Windjammer @TOPGUN @Dazzler @messiach @MastanKhan @Khafee ,
> 
> Theoretically speaking, is it possible for an AEW&C or EW aircraft to assume the flight plan of a passenger jet and fly over (or close to) an otherwise hostile protected airspace, deep enough (or close enough), inconspicuously and then start providing EW cover to an ingress package on approach?
> 
> If so, what is the best way to counter such a possibility other than closing airways?
> 
> It should be possible to prove such an event if it occurs too, so are there international laws that forbid such misuse of passenger jet identity or is it still unchartered territory?
> 
> After all, it is literally like putting the lives of other passenger jets in the vicinity or between hostile countries, in danger of getting shot.





Shane said:


> My point in writing that post was about possibilities of breaking and bending the rules to achieve military objective in fooling enemy/hostile radars of approaching threats untill its too late.
> 
> I believe you are correct and going by the official rules and regulations.
> 
> However, a chartered private/passenger jet flying towards the border with all the confirming transponder/ATC/ID and call signs can still turn out to be a CIA Hercules with all its military communications equipment on board.
> 
> Yes, we can choose to believe the official regulations and those who can hack, bypass, ignore or simply trick the regulations all the time.
> 
> View attachment 558061
> 
> ...
> View attachment 558062





Shane said:


> @Oscar @Windjammer @TOPGUN @Dazzler @messiach @MastanKhan @Khafee
> Does the following tweet has any significance with reference to the above posts made after earlier airspace closure?
> 
> Is the recent talk of closing airspace only to economically hurt Indian airliners only?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1165967883337441281



Strange co-incidence or was it?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186252687958036480

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## MIRauf

I don't know if this is true, to best of my knowledge the original 4 were inducted as PESA rotating Dish and not AESA. Only one out of four so far is in China to go thru AESA upgrade and there is no indication that it has returned back into Fleet. PLAAF didn't induct AESA mini Dish till KJ-500 which was years after PAF received at least three ZDK-03s. Fourth one too much longer to be received ( after induction of KJ-500 in PLAAF,) now is it AESA capable ? or PESA ?

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## Dazzler



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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Daily News
Oct 8, 2019 Bilal Khan -
*PAKISTAN CONFIRMS DELIVERIES OF FOLLOW-ON ERIEYE AEW&C*
ShareTweet


In its annual yearbook for 2017-2018, the Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) confirmed that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) took delivery of its sixth Saab 2000-based Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. The Directorate General of Defence Purchase (DGDP) ordered the sixth Erieye AEW&C from Saab for $94.95 million US in 2017-2018.[1]

Public export-import registries indicated that the PAF started implementing the follow-on Erieye program in April 2018, with deliveries concluding in April 2019. It appears that the additional Erieye AEW&C aircraft were integrated to three Saab 2000s procured from Skyworld Aviation in November 2018. In any case, the MoDP has basically confirmed that the PAF now operates six Erieye AEW&C aircraft.

The PAF ordered four Erieye AEW&C in 2006. It had originally sought six AEW&C, but trimmed its purchase due to a resource reduction (as a result of the earthquake in 2005). The total value of the Erieye contract was $1.15 billion US, but that included training, logistics, spare parts, and other ancillary costs. However, the cost of the Erieye AEW&C on its own was $93 million US (close to the figure outlined by the MoDP).

In order to recover its fleet following the terrorist attack on Minhas Air Base in 2012, the PAF also set-up an extensive support base for the Saab 2000, one sufficient enough to repair damaged aircraft.

Although the Erieye is now an older system (with Saab actively promoting the Erieye ER), at less than $95 million, it is a comparatively low-cost solution for the PAF. However, the Saab 2000 is an integral piece to this cost-effectiveness, and there are a very limited number of such aircraft available on the market.

The PAF has not indicated any plan for procuring the Erieye ER, a gallium-nitride (GaN)-based system with a 70% increase in detection range. However, seeing the efficacy of the Erieye platform in its recent stand-off with India, interest in the improved version is not out of the question.



[1] Year Book (sic) 2017-2018. Ministry of Defence Production. Government of Pakistan. 05 September 2019. URL: http://www.modp.gov.pk/frmDetails.aspx


https://quwa.org/2019/10/08/pakistan-confirms-deliveries-of-follow-on-erieye-aewc/

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 593393










an improved variant (ZDK-03A?) featuring a mechanically rotating AESA radar (KLC-7/_B&R Eye_ from 14th Institute) is being developed.

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## Haris Ali2140

Any progress on the three Erieye kits received????


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## araz

MIRauf said:


> I don't know if this is true, to best of my knowledge the original 4 were inducted as PESA rotating Dish and not AESA. Only one out of four so far is in China to go thru AESA upgrade and there is no indication that it has returned back into Fleet. PLAAF didn't induct AESA mini Dish till KJ-500 which was years after PAF received at least three ZDK-03s. Fourth one too much longer to be received ( after induction of KJ-500 in PLAAF,) now is it AESA capable ? or PESA ?


Fully agreed. These are PESA dishes not AESA. they will subsequently be upgraded to AESA.
A


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## LKJ86

MIRauf said:


> PLAAF didn't induct AESA mini Dish till KJ-500 which was years after PAF received at least three ZDK-03s.


Why not mention KJ-2000 and KJ-200?


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## Tipu7

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Any progress on the three Erieye kits received????


Operational

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## Haris Ali2140

Tipu7 said:


> Operational


So soon????


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## Tipu7

Haris Ali2140 said:


> So soon????


Yeah, 'so soon'

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## Pakistani Fighter

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> Although the Erieye is now an older system (with Saab actively promoting the Erieye ER), at less than $95 million, it is a comparatively low-cost solution for the PAF. However, the Saab 2000 is an integral piece to this cost-effectiveness, and there are a very limited number of such aircraft available on the market.
> 
> The PAF has not indicated any plan for procuring the Erieye ER, a gallium-nitride (GaN)-based system with a 70% increase in detection range. However, seeing the efficacy of the Erieye platform in its recent stand-off with India, interest in the improved version is not out of the question.


Pakistan should upgrade all its Erieyes to ER Standard


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## araz

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Pakistan should upgrade all its Erieyes to ER Standard


Kaka.
When you guys want newer toys please remember they cost money. Not only the Radar but possibly also the hardware may need changing. All when it is working just fine and giving the adversary a good run for its money. Possibly at 120 to 150 million a pop for 6 units when we are running around with PESA on the K3s. I think let us get the K3s back and play with them first. The expense is not worth it. Sort of same issue with my 2003 Honda which has just done 68000 miles. My children want a newer toy but is it worth it when it gets me from A to B with no problems.
A

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## Pakistani Fighter

araz said:


> PESA on the K3s.


U mean ZDK 3s?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Erieye AEW&C looks like a good deal. Once the PAF absorbed the upfront logistics and maintenance costs, each additional Erieye costs like $70-90 m per system off the shelf. So, if the PAF wants additional Erieye AEW&C, it can get them at a decent cost (not that it's looking to do so, it's just an option). 

For the Erieye ER, you would have to reset the entire process, and probably end up spending $200-250 m per system, easily. 

In other words, there's no "upgrading," if the PAF really wants the Erieye-ER, it would need to look at expanding the AEW&C fleet even further. Since the PAF has reached its originally intended goal of 6 Erieye AEW&C _*plus *_4 KE AWACS, *I doubt it's interested in adding AEW&C.*

If anything, the goal right now is probably replacing the low-level and gap filler radars with a new AESA-based design. You could also argue the case of adding stand-off EW aircraft, either through pods on JF-17s (and F-16A/B MLUs) or VIP jets.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Erieye AEW&C looks like a good deal. Once the PAF absorbed the upfront logistics and maintenance costs, each additional Erieye costs like $70-90 m per system off the shelf. So, if the PAF wants additional Erieye AEW&C, it can get them at a decent cost (not that it's looking to do so, it's just an option).
> 
> For the Erieye ER, you would have to reset the entire process, and probably end up spending $200-250 m per system, easily.
> 
> In other words, there's no "upgrading," if the PAF really wants the Erieye-ER, it would need to look at expanding the AEW&C fleet even further. Since the PAF has reached its originally intended goal of 6 Erieye AEW&C _*plus *_4 KE AWACS, *I doubt it's interested in adding AEW&C.*
> 
> If anything, the goal right now is probably replacing the low-level and gap filler radars with a new AESA-based design. You could also argue the case of adding stand-off EW aircraft, either through pods on JF-17s (and F-16A/B MLUs) or VIP jets.


So all our 10 AWACs have AESA radars?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So all our 10 AWACs have AESA radars?


The 6 Erieye AEW&C are AESA, but I don't know about the KE, no one officially said it (or didn't) uses an AESA radar. Possible, but can't say.

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## Haris Ali2140

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Pakistan should upgrade all its Erieyes to ER Standard


You can swap the radar but the radar itself is just a piece of the puzzle.


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## Cookie Monster

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Erieye AEW&C looks like a good deal. Once the PAF absorbed the upfront logistics and maintenance costs, each additional Erieye costs like $70-90 m per system off the shelf. So, if the PAF wants additional Erieye AEW&C, it can get them at a decent cost (not that it's looking to do so, it's just an option).
> 
> For the Erieye ER, you would have to reset the entire process, and probably end up spending $200-250 m per system, easily.
> 
> In other words, there's no "upgrading," if the PAF really wants the Erieye-ER, it would need to look at expanding the AEW&C fleet even further. Since the PAF has reached its originally intended goal of 6 Erieye AEW&C _*plus *_4 KE AWACS, *I doubt it's interested in adding AEW&C.*
> 
> If anything, the goal right now is probably replacing the low-level and gap filler radars with a new AESA-based design. You could also argue the case of adding stand-off EW aircraft, either through pods on JF-17s (and F-16A/B MLUs) or VIP jets.


I agree...the current quantity(6+4) of AWACS aircrafts and the range currently is enough to satisfactorily serve the intended purpose. Yes ER would of course give added advantage but the cost isn't worth the upgrade(yet)...especially when the money(if available) can be used for so many other things rn. Adding more radar coverage(ground based radars) and possibly air defense systems should definitely take more priority over AWAC upgradation at the moment. Not to mention so many other things on the wishlist of fanboys like me(rumored F16 upgrades plus new airframes, rumored J15 flankers, possibly a Mirage replacement somewhere down the line)...
If wishes were cookies...Cookie Monsters would feast

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The 6 Erieye AEW&C are AESA, but I don't know about the KE, no one officially said it (or didn't) uses an AESA radar. Possible, but can't say.


Sir sorry to mention u , All 3 Erieye AEW&C which were ordered around 2017 are operational now ???


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## Haris Ali2140

Tipu7 said:


> Yeah, 'so soon'


When were they delivered???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> Sir sorry to mention u , All 3 Erieye AEW&C which were ordered around 2017 are operational now ???


Not sure, but they were delivered, and they will become operational (if not already).

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not sure, but they were delivered, and they will become operational (if not already).


Thank you sir . Stay Blessed .


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## Zarvan

Haris Ali2140 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1182507519832444928
> 12????
> @Quwa @Dazzler @Signalian


11 AWACs 7 SAAB and 4 from China. The two which were destroyed I have heard that Air Show several times and the officer clearly says the two which were damaged both were recovered and are operational. If he is not lying that we have 11 AWACS in total.




Here is the video of the show and it clearly says both were recovered. Start watching from 21st minute.

@Path-Finder @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah @Horus @The Eagle @Windjammer @Arsalan @Dazzler @jaibi @Slav Defence

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> 11 AWACs 7 SAAB and 4 from China. The two which were destroyed I have heard that Air Show several times and the officer clearly says the two which were damaged both were recovered and are operational. If he is not lying that we have 11 AWACS in total.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the video of the show and it clearly says both were recovered. Start watching from 21st minute.
> 
> @Path-Finder @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah @Horus @The Eagle @Windjammer @Arsalan @Dazzler @jaibi @Slav Defence


zabardast, hazrat @Zarvan ittay nazar whi pao zara
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ideas-2018-from-my-camera.589663/page-9#post-12063815


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## mshan44



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## khanasifm



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## Khan vilatey

I have a strategic question, how will Indian s-400 deployments affect our AWACS assets will they need to fly deeper in Pakistan reducing our detection range?

KV


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## Ultima Thule

Khan vilatey said:


> I have a strategic question, how will Indian s-400 deployments affect our AWACS assets will they need to fly deeper in Pakistan reducing our detection range?
> 
> KV


S-400 has radar range of 600 KM, that cover most of Pakistan, excluding western Baluchistan, hence they will detect and track most of PAF AWACS movement as far as Sibi, and Karachi, and you don't assumed that they put S-400 right along the border but 150-200 km away from Pakistani border

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## khanasifm

seven0seven said:


> S-400 has radar range of 600 KM, that cover most of Pakistan, excluding western Baluchistan, hence they will detect and track most of PAF AWACS movement as far as Sibi, and Karachi, and you don't assumed that they put S-400 right along the border but 150-200 km away from Pakistani border



Not sure but Israel keep beating the shit out of Syria and s-400 are deployed so ??? Not sure [emoji848] how is this great system with 600km and 400 km ....

Just system deployed at Latika cover whole country 



https://www.military.com/defensetech/2018/01/26/russia-deploys-more-s-400-missile-systems-syria.html

View attachment 606898

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## Khan vilatey

seven0seven said:


> S-400 has radar range of 600 KM, that cover most of Pakistan, excluding western Baluchistan, hence they will detect and track most of PAF AWACS movement as far as Sibi, and Karachi, and you don't assumed that they put S-400 right along the border but 150-200 km away from Pakistani border





khanasifm said:


> Not sure but Israel keep beating the shit out of Syria and s-400 are deployed so ??? Not sure [emoji848] how is this great system with 600km and 400 km ....


 

i agree with both of you that fixed air defenses are a bit of red herring. Eventually, any fixed defense is overcome, case and point the Maginot Line. 

It seems medium-range SAMs are affective like in 1970 Egyptian defenses but to your point long-range, SAMS have a chequered history. I understand from previous posts that PAF believes in having aircraft rather than SAMS as they provide much more flexibility. 

Do you think PAF should get FD-2000 or FD-3000 will this in your opinion get us into a defensive mindset.


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## khanasifm

Khan vilatey said:


> i agree with both of you that fixed air defenses are a bit of red herring. Eventually, any fixed defense is overcome, case and point the Maginot Line.
> 
> It seems medium-range SAMs are affective like in 1970 Egyptian defenses but to your point long-range, SAMS have a chequered history. I understand from previous posts that PAF believes in having aircraft rather than SAMS as they provide much more flexibility.
> 
> Do you think PAF should get FD-2000 or FD-3000 will this in your opinion get us into a defensive mindset.



Well there is a role fo sams but the way iaf just goes and beat the shit out of Syrians and Russian I am not sure may be there is a understanding between Russian and iaf not to touch each other and let the Syrians have it [emoji848]

I think the point being this 400 and 600 km range is against big pie in the sky type target and not everything out there ??

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## Ultima Thule

Khan vilatey said:


> i agree with both of you that fixed air defenses are a bit of red herring. Eventually, any fixed defense is overcome, case and point the Maginot Line.
> 
> It seems medium-range SAMs are affective like in 1970 Egyptian defenses but to your point long-range, SAMS have a chequered history. I understand from previous posts that PAF believes in having aircraft rather than SAMS as they provide much more flexibility.
> 
> Do you think PAF should get FD-2000 or FD-3000 will this in your opinion get us into a defensive mindset.


PAF follows western doctrines, which more believe in active air defense (air interceptions), where are SAMs are passive air defense and we currently lacking good SAMs coverage but i think Pakistan moving step by step next we will buy long range HQ-9 or Aster-30 SAMs

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## khanasifm




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## mshan44



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## Pakistani Fighter

seven0seven said:


> S-400 has radar range of 600 KM, that cover most of Pakistan, excluding western Baluchistan, hence they will detect and track most of PAF AWACS movement as far as Sibi, and Karachi, and you don't assumed that they put S-400 right along the border but 150-200 km away from Pakistani border


What is the range of TPS 77MR and that YC 12?


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What is the range of TPS 77MR and that YC 12?


470 and 500 km respectively

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## Shabi1

seven0seven said:


> S-400 has radar range of 600 KM, that cover most of Pakistan, excluding western Baluchistan, hence they will detect and track most of PAF AWACS movement as far as Sibi, and Karachi, and you don't assumed that they put S-400 right along the border but 150-200 km away from Pakistani border


We had same thoughts when the S-300s were bought. The S-400 will not be placed on edge of border as they will be prime targets for our land based missiles, SSG (PAF), SEAD units and SOWs.
SAM and radar locations can be tracked beyond the normal radar distances of our AWACs through passive sensors.

Isreal's answer to S-300 has been its Rampage missiles (search it up on google). Pakistan's Nasr for land use and CM-400AKG for air use should offer similar if not better ability.
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...n_Speed_Past_Russian_S_300_Air_Defence_System

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## Pakistani Fighter

seven0seven said:


> 470 and 500 km respectively


Does our ZDK 3 and Erieye have EW?


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## Shabi1

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Does our ZDK 3 and Erieye have EW?


Watch video from 3:00 Saab 2000 Sigint mounted on wingtips. The Sigint system can detect other radar signals way beyond its own radar range for threat mitigation like a very powerful RWR.

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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Does our ZDK 3 and Erieye have EW?


Yes why not, they have RWR/EW/ESM on them, why you think they don't have EW, they are all military aircraft as for your information


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## Path-Finder

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Does our ZDK 3 and Erieye have EW?



you see the small antennas on the aircraft they are foe ECM/EW 





so don't be afraid!



Khan vilatey said:


> I have a strategic question, how will Indian s-400 deployments affect our AWACS assets will they need to fly deeper in Pakistan reducing our detection range?
> 
> KV


When a radar is switched on its affect is like turning on a torch in the middle of the darkest night with no moon or stars, you will be visible Thanks to sensors that exist now. there is a reason why S400 is so mobile and not a stationary system.


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## Rafi

Path-Finder said:


> you see the small antennas on the aircraft they are foe ECM/EW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so don't be afraid!
> 
> 
> When a radar is switched on its affect is like turning on a torch in the middle of the darkest night with no moon or stars, you will be visible Thanks to sensors that exist now. there is a reason why S400 is so mobile and not a stationary system.



There will be tactics for this, highly classified, cant even mention.

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## Khan vilatey

Path-Finder said:


> you see the small antennas on the aircraft they are foe ECM/EW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so don't be afraid!
> 
> 
> When a radar is switched on its affect is like turning on a torch in the middle of the darkest night with no moon or stars, you will be visible Thanks to sensors that exist now. there is a reason why S400 is so mobile and not a stationary system.




Yes but in your example, there are two real possibilities 

1)keep the torch off and no one knows where s-400 is but you get limited targets in passive mode.

2) keep the torch off and moving but if you are in a conflict situation you will sooner or later need to find a spot and turn the torch on.

the question then is do we go after the torch when it’s on with let’s say raad or Babar? If we do get 2-3 s-400 torches we have caused India 3ish billion dollar cost and massive holes in their air defence which they have not trained for. 

I personally would take the risk and exploit the weakness. But I am a man who likes to take risks....

thoughts ....

Kv


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## Path-Finder

Khan vilatey said:


> Yes but in your example, there are two real possibilities
> 
> 1)keep the torch off and no one knows where s-400 is but you get limited targets in passive mode.
> 
> 2) keep the torch off and moving but if you are in a conflict situation you will sooner or later need to find a spot and turn the torch on.
> 
> the question then is do we go after the torch when it’s on with let’s say raad or Babar? If we do get 2-3 s-400 torches we have caused India 3ish billion dollar cost and massive holes in their air defence which they have not trained for.
> 
> I personally would take the risk and exploit the weakness. But I am a man who likes to take risks....
> 
> thoughts ....
> 
> Kv


it is a cat and mouse game. recently nato launched a massive strike using various type SOM against a target in syria. some of them were intercepted by AD and later remenintes of the cruise missiles were displayed in the kremlin for media. But it proved one thing not all of them can be intercepted provided the volume used is substantially large as only a few are needed to hit the intended target. 

S400 will protect a high value target. is that high value target on PAF's hit list? if so then that is where best minds will strategize on how to strike the target. No system is 100% foolproof and ways exist to exploit their weaknesses.

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## Khan vilatey

Path-Finder said:


> it is a cat and mouse game. recently nato launched a massive strike using various type SOM against a target in syria. some of them were intercepted by AD and later remenintes of the cruise missiles were displayed in the kremlin for media. But it proved one thing not all of them can be intercepted provided the volume used is substantially large as only a few are needed to hit the intended target.
> 
> S400 will protect a high value target. is that high value target on PAF's hit list? if so then that is where best minds will strategize on how to strike the target. No system is 100% foolproof and ways exist to exploit their weaknesses.



agreed, I don’t think they have enough for blanket air defence. There are only 5 batteries with 2~3 at best on our border 

regards
Kv


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## Path-Finder

Khan vilatey said:


> agreed, I don’t think they have enough for blanket air defence. There are only 5 batteries with 2~3 at best on our border
> 
> regards
> Kv



this may be of interest to you.


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## Khan vilatey

Path-Finder said:


> this may be of interest to you.


Very informative, if we buy hq9b and fd2000 combination with at least 10 batteries each we can have similar results against IAF

KV

I looked up the Yugoslavia air campaign and found a completely one sided war with soooo many losses in the anti nato group. here is a quick read

*Strength
NATO* *Casualties and losses*
3 jet fighters destroyed
2 helicopters destroyed
21 UAVs destroyed
3 jet fighters damaged
2 soldiers killed (non-combat helicopter crash)
3 soldiers captured 631–1,200 killed

*Yugoslavia losses*
5,173 wounded
52 missing
120 tanks destroyed
220 APCs destroyed
450 artillery pieces destroyed (according to NATO)
121 aircraft destroyed
Economic losses of $29.6 billion[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

still cool to see a F117 downed 

KV

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## Falcon26

Path-Finder said:


> it is a cat and mouse game. recently nato launched a massive strike using various type SOM against a target in syria. some of them were intercepted by AD and later remenintes of the cruise missiles were displayed in the kremlin for media. But it proved one thing not all of them can be intercepted provided the volume used is substantially large as only a few are needed to hit the intended target.
> 
> S400 will protect a high value target. is that high value target on PAF's hit list? if so then that is where best minds will strategize on how to strike the target. No system is 100% foolproof and ways exist to exploit their weaknesses.



link?


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## Path-Finder

Falcon26 said:


> link?


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...yria-air-defences-shot-down-majority-missiles


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## Falcon26

Path-Finder said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...yria-air-defences-shot-down-majority-missiles



thanks


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## mshan44



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## cw2005

Path-Finder said:


> this may be of interest to you.


I would like to add : 6. keep the war going for long time and 7. pull out before the job is done.

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## airomerix

2 brand new SAAB Erieye AEW&C to join PAF this year

A new squadron is to be raised of AEW&C at Bholari AFB to cover the eastern sector.

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## Haris Ali2140

airomerix said:


> 2 brand new SAAB Erieye AEW&C to join PAF this year
> 
> A new squadron is to be raised of AEW&C at Bholari AFB to cover the eastern sector.


From the 3 kits we recently ordered???


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## Keysersoze

airomerix said:


> 2 brand new SAAB Erieye AEW&C to join PAF this year
> 
> A new squadron is to be raised of AEW&C at Bholari AFB to cover the eastern sector.


The only issue with this is the number of Saab 2000 air frames available. Spare parts might be an issue.


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## airomerix

Keysersoze said:


> The only issue with this is the number of Saab 2000 air frames available. Spare parts might be an issue.



PAC Kamra has substantial experience in the manufacturing of critical components of SAAB 2000. 

It should not be a major issue. 



Haris Ali2140 said:


> From the 3 kits we recently ordered???



Yes. One is a passenger version and two are AEW&C.

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## Apex

airomerix said:


> 2 brand new SAAB Erieye AEW&C to join PAF this year
> 
> A new squadron is to be raised of AEW&C at Bholari AFB to cover the eastern sector.


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## Haris Ali2140

airomerix said:


> PAC Kamra has substantial experience in the manufacturing of critical components of SAAB 2000.
> 
> It should not be a major issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. One is a passenger version and two are AEW&C.


But the official number of Erieye fleet is 6.


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## Path-Finder

its 10 years old.

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## Safriz

Path-Finder said:


> its 10 years old.


Ire eye


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## mshan44



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## Gryphon

Haris Ali2140 said:


> But the official number of Erieye fleet is 6.



There are 4× Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C a/c active with No. 3 sqn at Minhas, plus there are 6× Saab 2000s flying with at least two of these slated for conversion.

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## Haris Ali2140

Path-Finder said:


> its 10 years old.


At first I was glad that someone has done his homework but then he had to destroy everything by comparing it with Phalcons like a fanboy.


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## Path-Finder

Haris Ali2140 said:


> At first I was glad that someone has done his homework but then he had to destroy everything by comparing it with Phalcons like a fanboy.


its bloody dawn news afterall.

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## Haris Ali2140

Does anyone remembers that we sent a K-3 for upgradation to China??? Any news on that???
@Deino @LKJ86 @Dazzler @airomerix

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## khanasifm

https://www.waxahachietx.com/news/2...t-at-mid-way-regional-airport?template=ampart


For saab340 

According to the Saab website, fatigue testing on test aircraft exceeded more than 200,000 cycles or 75 years of regional operations. It has a maximum operating altitude of 25,000 feet with a maximum fuel capacity of 5,690 pounds

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## Safriz

045 again

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## Safriz

Plane spotters say that the three new Saab 2000 bought by PAF have been assigned following fleet number
https://m.planespotters.net/airline/Pakistan-Air-Force

10024
10038
10062

That means all three have Erieye , because the VIP transport aircrafts have different serial numbers designation starting with J ?

The existing ones are

10025
10040
10045
10049

That's a grand total of 7 SAAB ERIEYE active at the Moment?

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## aliyusuf

Safriz said:


> Plane spotters say that the three new Saab 2000 bought by PAF have been assigned following fleet number
> https://m.planespotters.net/airline/Pakistan-Air-Force
> 
> 10024
> 10038
> 10062
> 
> That means all three have Erieye , because the VIP transport aircrafts have different serial numbers designation starting with J ?
> 
> The existing ones are
> 
> 10025
> 10040
> 10045
> 10049
> 
> That's a grand total of 7 SAAB ERIEYE active at the Moment?


It is generally accepted by all that 3 of the original 4 Saab Erieye's are operational, with one being a complete write-off. Which one of the above was a write-off, I don't know.

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## Zarvan

aliyusuf said:


> It is generally accepted by all that 3 of the original 4 Saab Erieye's are operational, with one being a complete write-off. Which one of the above was a write-off, I don't know.


All initial 4 are operational

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## Zephyrus



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## Pakistani Fighter

Zarvan said:


> All initial 4 are operational


So how many Erieyes we have operational uptil now?


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## Zarvan

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So how many Erieyes we have operational uptil now?


7 SAAB 4 Chinese

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## Safriz

aliyusuf said:


> It is generally accepted by all that 3 of the original 4 Saab Erieye's are operational, with one being a complete write-off. Which one of the above was a write-off, I don't know.


10025 was the write-off , it's back in service after repair



Zarvan said:


> 7 SAAB 4 Chinese


So that's 11 AWACS

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## GriffinsRule

aliyusuf said:


> It is generally accepted by all that 3 of the original 4 Saab Erieye's are operational, with one being a complete write-off. Which one of the above was a write-off, I don't know.


11049 is the w/o I believe

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## aliyusuf

@GriffinsRule @Zarvan @Safriz
In a National Assembly defence committee session, several months after the Kamra incident, the Minister of Defence at that time in Zardari era, had clearly stated that out of the 4 Saab-2000 EriEye AEW&C planes ... 2 were damaged and 1 was a write-off and only 1 was operational.

I would be quite happy and in fact grateful to be proven wrong, but it is my humble understanding that it is unlikely that write-off's have enough salvageable parts and fuselage left to be revived ... otherwise it wouldn't be classified as a write-off in the first place.

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## Amaa'n

aliyusuf said:


> @GriffinsRule @Zarvan @Safriz
> In a National Assembly defence committee session, several months after the Kamra incident, the Minister of Defence at that time in Zardari era, had clearly stated that out of the 4 Saab-2000 EriEye AEW&C planes ... 2 were damaged and 1 was a write-off and only 1 was operational.
> 
> I would be quite happy and in fact grateful to be proven wrong, but it is my humble understanding that it is unlikely that write-off's have enough salvageable parts and fuselage left to be revived ... otherwise it wouldn't be classified as a write-off in the first place.


All 4 were restored ..... what we know is that 1 x Untouched, 2 x Major damaged, 1 x Partial damage ....

the attack was so bad that the attackers actually sat inside the cockpit of the planes, took a sip of tea before lodging grenades ..... 
Anyhow, back to the topic ....

1 x Untouched
1 x Partial damaged was repaired at PAC swiftly 
2 x Major Damaged were repaired at PAC with some time. SAAB initially refused to endorse any repairs done by PAF, however when we got the work done on both, SAAB added them back on their register....

so All 4 are operational

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## Pakistani Fighter

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> All 4 were restored ..... what we know is that 1 x Untouched, 2 x Major damaged, 1 x Partial damage ....
> 
> the attack was so bad that the attackers actually sat inside the cockpit of the planes, took a sip of tea before lodging grenades .....
> Anyhow, back to the topic ....
> 
> 1 x Untouched
> 1 x Partial damaged was repaired at PAC swiftly
> 2 x Major Damaged were repaired at PAC with some time. SAAB initially refused to endorse any repairs done by PAF, however when we got the work done on both, SAAB added them back on their register....
> 
> so All 4 are operational


So total 6 Erieyes we have then?


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## Amaa'n

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So total 6 Erieyes we have then?


Yes,
This topic has been discussed at length on forum actually and we had all lot input for senior members, all lot digging ...6were Erieyes ..... 1 x transport

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## HRK

aliyusuf said:


> Which one of the above was a write-off, I don't know


10049

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## aliyusuf

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> All 4 were restored ..... what we know is that 1 x Untouched, 2 x Major damaged, 1 x Partial damage ....
> 
> the attack was so bad that the attackers actually sat inside the cockpit of the planes, took a sip of tea before lodging grenades .....
> Anyhow, back to the topic ....
> 
> 1 x Untouched
> 1 x Partial damaged was repaired at PAC swiftly
> 2 x Major Damaged were repaired at PAC with some time. SAAB initially refused to endorse any repairs done by PAF, however when we got the work done on both, SAAB added them back on their register....
> 
> so All 4 are operational



This is actually what I am trying to say.

Source: Quwa

*PAKISTAN AIR FORCE OFFICIALS OUTLINE ERIEYE AEW&C RECOVERY PROCESS*

In an interview with the state-owned television broadcaster PTV, several of the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) leading engineering officers outlined the process the PAF undertook to repair two damaged Saab 2000-based Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft.

The interview included Air Commodore Rizwan Riaz (a PhD in Aerodynamics and specializes in structural repair and certification), Air Commodore Shakeel Safdar (a PhD in Structural Design and Repair) and Wing Commander Muhammad Rafiq, who presided the implementation of the Erieye AEW&C repair program.

Pakistan ordered four Erieye AEW&C from the Swedish defence giant Saab in 2006. It had intended to acquire six, but some program funding had to be diverted to support recovery and reconstruction efforts in Kashmir following the 2005 Kashmir Earthquake, resulting in the order being trimmed to four. These were complemented by four China Electronics Technology Group Corporation ZDK03, which were locally designated “Karakorum Eagle.”

*In August 2012, nine Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) assailants had infiltrated and attacked PAF Minhas in Kamra with the apparent aim of attacking the Erieye AEW&C. The result of the attack left one Erieye as a complete write-off and two others damaged. The fourth Erieye AEW&C was not present at the base. In effect, the attack had left the PAF with only one of its four originally ordered Erieye AEW&C aircraft.*

The PAF – along with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) – took the lead in trying to resurrect the two damaged Erieye AEW&C. It succeeded in recovering the two aircraft, with the first returning in 2015 and the second in 2016. In October 2016, the Chairman of the Senate Standing Committee on Defence lauded PAC for its role in the recovery process. In May 2017, the PAF told Air Forces Monthly that it ordered three additional Erieye AEW&C from Saab, with the first due in December 2017.

*The Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production’s (MoDP) yearbook for 2015-2016 registered the “recovery” of a “fourth AEW&C system” at a cost of $130.39 million U.S. In May 2016, Saab announced an order for its AEW&C division worth $132 million U.S. It appears that this unit is the first of the three new aircraft, which would eventually bring the PAF’s Erieye fleet to its originally (pre-2005) force of six aircraft (Not 7 - based on what you are suggesting).*




Source: PTV

Recalling the condition of the two damaged Erieye AEW&C, Air Commodore Riaz stated, “The aircraft were very badly damaged. There was fire damage to the top of the aircraft, there were bullet holes.” Riaz added, “When we first looked at the aircraft, they looked like complete write-offs, as the company [Saab] said.”

Air Commodore Safdar added that not only was the airframe damaged, but “there was significant damage to wiring and significant damage to systems.” Safdar outlined that Saab’s assessment was not based on just visual inspection, but from its own damage assessment, stating, “[Saab] said that the extent of damage is so huge, the magnitude of damage is so vast, it would be very difficult to repair these aircraft.”

The PAF entrusted Safdar to carry out its own damage assessment of the two aircraft. Upon the study’s completion, Air Commodore Safdar had presented the results to Saab, after which Saab recategorized the aircraft as being repairable and supported the PAF’s proposed repair scheme. Safdar noted, “However, once we discussed with them and we gave our proposals of the whole plan which we made … they were … very open minded.” The PAF raised two teams: a structure repair team and a systems recovery team. The structure repair team, also comprising of PAF engineers, provided a theoretical model for the repair work, which was then implemented by an engineering team led by Wing Commander Muhammad Rafiq.




Source: PTV



Air Commodore Riaz’s aerodynamics and certification team was responsible for ensuring that the repair work was in accordance to international standards. Riaz noted that besides being able to certify the repair work on the Erieye AEW&C, the initiative allowed the PAF to gain “the capability of being able to certify any military aircraft, another capability we gained out of this incident.” In fact, Riaz added that although Saab had permitted the PAF to recover the aircraft, the company did not intend to endorse the aircraft or repair work. However, upon assessing the PAF’s design work, implementation process and certification requirements, Saab “accepted [the two aircraft] back into their registry, in a way putting their stamp of approval.” To achieve this feat the PAF both embraced existing international standards and, where none were in place for tasks, define original ones to assess and certify the repair work.

Besides in-house repair planning and implementation work, some components were also sourced locally. Air Commodore Safdar stated that the new wiring was made at PAC’s Aircraft Rebuild Factory. PAC also carried out repair and testing of several the Erieye’s components. The trio noted that it was an integrated effort, one drawing upon the PAF and PAC. Wing Commander Rafiq stated that the implementation phase was difficult, but on the back of the effort the PAF and PAC had undergone significant capacity building. Air Commodore Safdar stated, “The capability which we have achieved during this recovery … was beyond expectations … [PAC’s factories] achieved things which were beyond their original capacity.”

Upon completion of the repair work, the PAF CAS Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman flew on the very first test-sortie of the newly repaired aircraft. The first aircraft was repaired in two years, while the second was completed in one year following the first. Air Commodore Safdar stated that the cost of repairing the two aircraft was 5% of the original value, echoing an earlier statement by ACM Sohail Aman (when he said the cost of repairing the aircraft was $25 million U.S.) Safdar reiterated that Saab’s endorsement was a significant step, stating, “…the execution, if that is not done right, the aircraft flight safety and aircraft life is in serious jeopardy.” Safdar lauded Wing Commander Rafiq’s role in this regard.




Source: PTV

The initiative also demonstrated to Air Headquarters (AHQ) that the PAF’s engineering capacity was being underutilized and that it could be steered towards assuming greater responsibility in complex areas, such as design. According to Air Commodore Riaz, “The [CAS] decided to set-up the first multi-disciplinary design centre in Kamra, the first of its kind in Pakistan, which has now been operating for about two years.” Riaz also touched upon the inauguration of Kamra Aviation City, which will serve the central role in the design and development of a 5th-generation fighter for the PAF.

*Notes & Comments:*

It appears that PAC accrued a significant enough understanding of the Saab 2000 and material capacity to serve as a depot-level maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) site. Footage of the repaired Erieye show that significant portions of the airframe had to be replaced and, in turn, tested. With the PAF adding more Erieye AEW&C, D-level MRO at PAC would be natural seeing that the Saab 2000 is a long-term factor.

This would also be PAC’s first foray into civilian and commuter-transport platforms. In due time, PAC will also be equipped with a Damage Tolerance Analysis and Structural Health Management System acquired from Critical Materials S.A. in Portugal. This will help the PAF and PAC to closely monitor airframe health and improve maintenance processes to ensure higher availability and to preserve airframe life. However, it is not known if PAC will venture into civil aircraft manufacturing. While the Kamra Aviation City envisages such activity, the intent may be to spur private investment in aircraft manufacturing.

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## Amaa'n

HRK said:


> 10049


But it was repaired too no? I remembered we discussed this at length when there was news of PAF getting 3 new airframes.....did we get the delivery of those three new?



aliyusuf said:


> This is actually what I am trying to say.
> 
> Source: Quwa
> 
> *PAKISTAN AIR FORCE OFFICIALS OUTLINE ERIEYE AEW&C RECOVERY PROCESS*
> 
> In an interview with the state-owned television broadcaster PTV, several of the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) leading engineering officers outlined the process the PAF undertook to repair two damaged Saab 2000-based Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft.
> 
> The interview included Air Commodore Rizwan Riaz (a PhD in Aerodynamics and specializes in structural repair and certification), Air Commodore Shakeel Safdar (a PhD in Structural Design and Repair) and Wing Commander Muhammad Rafiq, who presided the implementation of the Erieye AEW&C repair program.
> 
> Pakistan ordered four Erieye AEW&C from the Swedish defence giant Saab in 2006. It had intended to acquire six, but some program funding had to be diverted to support recovery and reconstruction efforts in Kashmir following the 2005 Kashmir Earthquake, resulting in the order being trimmed to four. These were complemented by four China Electronics Technology Group Corporation ZDK03, which were locally designated “Karakorum Eagle.”
> 
> *In August 2012, nine Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) assailants had infiltrated and attacked PAF Minhas in Kamra with the apparent aim of attacking the Erieye AEW&C. The result of the attack left one Erieye as a complete write-off and two others damaged. The fourth Erieye AEW&C was not present at the base. In effect, the attack had left the PAF with only one of its four originally ordered Erieye AEW&C aircraft.*
> 
> The PAF – along with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) – took the lead in trying to resurrect the two damaged Erieye AEW&C. It succeeded in recovering the two aircraft, with the first returning in 2015 and the second in 2016. In October 2016, the Chairman of the Senate Standing Committee on Defence lauded PAC for its role in the recovery process. In May 2017, the PAF told Air Forces Monthly that it ordered three additional Erieye AEW&C from Saab, with the first due in December 2017.
> 
> *The Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production’s (MoDP) yearbook for 2015-2016 registered the “recovery” of a “fourth AEW&C system” at a cost of $130.39 million U.S. In May 2016, Saab announced an order for its AEW&C division worth $132 million U.S. It appears that this unit is the first of the three new aircraft, which would eventually bring the PAF’s Erieye fleet to its originally (pre-2005) force of six aircraft.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: PTV
> 
> Recalling the condition of the two damaged Erieye AEW&C, Air Commodore Riaz stated, “The aircraft were very badly damaged. There was fire damage to the top of the aircraft, there were bullet holes.” Riaz added, “When we first looked at the aircraft, they looked like complete write-offs, as the company [Saab] said.”
> 
> Air Commodore Safdar added that not only was the airframe damaged, but “there was significant damage to wiring and significant damage to systems.” Safdar outlined that Saab’s assessment was not based on just visual inspection, but from its own damage assessment, stating, “[Saab] said that the extent of damage is so huge, the magnitude of damage is so vast, it would be very difficult to repair these aircraft.”
> 
> The PAF entrusted Safdar to carry out its own damage assessment of the two aircraft. Upon the study’s completion, Air Commodore Safdar had presented the results to Saab, after which Saab recategorized the aircraft as being repairable and supported the PAF’s proposed repair scheme. Safdar noted, “However, once we discussed with them and we gave our proposals of the whole plan which we made … they were … very open minded.” The PAF raised two teams: a structure repair team and a systems recovery team. The structure repair team, also comprising of PAF engineers, provided a theoretical model for the repair work, which was then implemented by an engineering team led by Wing Commander Muhammad Rafiq.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: PTV
> 
> 
> 
> Air Commodore Riaz’s aerodynamics and certification team was responsible for ensuring that the repair work was in accordance to international standards. Riaz noted that besides being able to certify the repair work on the Erieye AEW&C, the initiative allowed the PAF to gain “the capability of being able to certify any military aircraft, another capability we gained out of this incident.” In fact, Riaz added that although Saab had permitted the PAF to recover the aircraft, the company did not intend to endorse the aircraft or repair work. However, upon assessing the PAF’s design work, implementation process and certification requirements, Saab “accepted [the two aircraft] back into their registry, in a way putting their stamp of approval.” To achieve this feat the PAF both embraced existing international standards and, where none were in place for tasks, define original ones to assess and certify the repair work.
> 
> Besides in-house repair planning and implementation work, some components were also sourced locally. Air Commodore Safdar stated that the new wiring was made at PAC’s Aircraft Rebuild Factory. PAC also carried out repair and testing of several the Erieye’s components. The trio noted that it was an integrated effort, one drawing upon the PAF and PAC. Wing Commander Rafiq stated that the implementation phase was difficult, but on the back of the effort the PAF and PAC had undergone significant capacity building. Air Commodore Safdar stated, “The capability which we have achieved during this recovery … was beyond expectations … [PAC’s factories] achieved things which were beyond their original capacity.”
> 
> Upon completion of the repair work, the PAF CAS Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman flew on the very first test-sortie of the newly repaired aircraft. The first aircraft was repaired in two years, while the second was completed in one year following the first. Air Commodore Safdar stated that the cost of repairing the two aircraft was 5% of the original value, echoing an earlier statement by ACM Sohail Aman (when he said the cost of repairing the aircraft was $25 million U.S.) Safdar reiterated that Saab’s endorsement was a significant step, stating, “…the execution, if that is not done right, the aircraft flight safety and aircraft life is in serious jeopardy.” Safdar lauded Wing Commander Rafiq’s role in this regard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: PTV
> 
> The initiative also demonstrated to Air Headquarters (AHQ) that the PAF’s engineering capacity was being underutilized and that it could be steered towards assuming greater responsibility in complex areas, such as design. According to Air Commodore Riaz, “The [CAS] decided to set-up the first multi-disciplinary design centre in Kamra, the first of its kind in Pakistan, which has now been operating for about two years.” Riaz also touched upon the inauguration of Kamra Aviation City, which will serve the central role in the design and development of a 5th-generation fighter for the PAF.
> 
> *Notes & Comments:*
> 
> It appears that PAC accrued a significant enough understanding of the Saab 2000 and material capacity to serve as a depot-level maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) site. Footage of the repaired Erieye show that significant portions of the airframe had to be replaced and, in turn, tested. With the PAF adding more Erieye AEW&C, D-level MRO at PAC would be natural seeing that the Saab 2000 is a long-term factor.
> 
> This would also be PAC’s first foray into civilian and commuter-transport platforms. In due time, PAC will also be equipped with a Damage Tolerance Analysis and Structural Health Management System acquired from Critical Materials S.A. in Portugal. This will help the PAF and PAC to closely monitor airframe health and improve maintenance processes to ensure higher availability and to preserve airframe life. However, it is not known if PAC will venture into civil aircraft manufacturing. While the Kamra Aviation City envisages such activity, the intent may be to spur private investment in aircraft manufacturing.


The article is from 2017, more details emerged after that.....let me find the post for you to refer to....

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## HRK

aliyusuf said:


> 2 were damaged and 1 was a write-off and only 1 was operational


10025+10045[later given new serial number 11045] were the damaged one which we recovered 10049 was the one which was write-off


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## Amaa'n

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...aab-2000-aircraft.613850/page-6#post-11374068

@HRK @aliyusuf

I had mentioned that 1 x transport craft.....although few members suggested that it was converted for AEW role too, but can't be confirmed


aliyusuf said:


> This is actually what I am trying to say.
> 
> Source: Quwa
> 
> *PAKISTAN AIR FORCE OFFICIALS OUTLINE ERIEYE AEW&C RECOVERY PROCESS*
> 
> In an interview with the state-owned television broadcaster PTV, several of the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) leading engineering officers outlined the process the PAF undertook to repair two damaged Saab 2000-based Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft.
> 
> The interview included Air Commodore Rizwan Riaz (a PhD in Aerodynamics and specializes in structural repair and certification), Air Commodore Shakeel Safdar (a PhD in Structural Design and Repair) and Wing Commander Muhammad Rafiq, who presided the implementation of the Erieye AEW&C repair program.
> 
> Pakistan ordered four Erieye AEW&C from the Swedish defence giant Saab in 2006. It had intended to acquire six, but some program funding had to be diverted to support recovery and reconstruction efforts in Kashmir following the 2005 Kashmir Earthquake, resulting in the order being trimmed to four. These were complemented by four China Electronics Technology Group Corporation ZDK03, which were locally designated “Karakorum Eagle.”
> 
> *In August 2012, nine Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) assailants had infiltrated and attacked PAF Minhas in Kamra with the apparent aim of attacking the Erieye AEW&C. The result of the attack left one Erieye as a complete write-off and two others damaged. The fourth Erieye AEW&C was not present at the base. In effect, the attack had left the PAF with only one of its four originally ordered Erieye AEW&C aircraft.*
> 
> The PAF – along with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) – took the lead in trying to resurrect the two damaged Erieye AEW&C. It succeeded in recovering the two aircraft, with the first returning in 2015 and the second in 2016. In October 2016, the Chairman of the Senate Standing Committee on Defence lauded PAC for its role in the recovery process. In May 2017, the PAF told Air Forces Monthly that it ordered three additional Erieye AEW&C from Saab, with the first due in December 2017.
> 
> *The Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production’s (MoDP) yearbook for 2015-2016 registered the “recovery” of a “fourth AEW&C system” at a cost of $130.39 million U.S. In May 2016, Saab announced an order for its AEW&C division worth $132 million U.S. It appears that this unit is the first of the three new aircraft, which would eventually bring the PAF’s Erieye fleet to its originally (pre-2005) force of six aircraft (Not 7 - based on what you are suggesting).*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: PTV
> 
> Recalling the condition of the two damaged Erieye AEW&C, Air Commodore Riaz stated, “The aircraft were very badly damaged. There was fire damage to the top of the aircraft, there were bullet holes.” Riaz added, “When we first looked at the aircraft, they looked like complete write-offs, as the company [Saab] said.”
> 
> Air Commodore Safdar added that not only was the airframe damaged, but “there was significant damage to wiring and significant damage to systems.” Safdar outlined that Saab’s assessment was not based on just visual inspection, but from its own damage assessment, stating, “[Saab] said that the extent of damage is so huge, the magnitude of damage is so vast, it would be very difficult to repair these aircraft.”
> 
> The PAF entrusted Safdar to carry out its own damage assessment of the two aircraft. Upon the study’s completion, Air Commodore Safdar had presented the results to Saab, after which Saab recategorized the aircraft as being repairable and supported the PAF’s proposed repair scheme. Safdar noted, “However, once we discussed with them and we gave our proposals of the whole plan which we made … they were … very open minded.” The PAF raised two teams: a structure repair team and a systems recovery team. The structure repair team, also comprising of PAF engineers, provided a theoretical model for the repair work, which was then implemented by an engineering team led by Wing Commander Muhammad Rafiq.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: PTV
> 
> 
> 
> Air Commodore Riaz’s aerodynamics and certification team was responsible for ensuring that the repair work was in accordance to international standards. Riaz noted that besides being able to certify the repair work on the Erieye AEW&C, the initiative allowed the PAF to gain “the capability of being able to certify any military aircraft, another capability we gained out of this incident.” In fact, Riaz added that although Saab had permitted the PAF to recover the aircraft, the company did not intend to endorse the aircraft or repair work. However, upon assessing the PAF’s design work, implementation process and certification requirements, Saab “accepted [the two aircraft] back into their registry, in a way putting their stamp of approval.” To achieve this feat the PAF both embraced existing international standards and, where none were in place for tasks, define original ones to assess and certify the repair work.
> 
> Besides in-house repair planning and implementation work, some components were also sourced locally. Air Commodore Safdar stated that the new wiring was made at PAC’s Aircraft Rebuild Factory. PAC also carried out repair and testing of several the Erieye’s components. The trio noted that it was an integrated effort, one drawing upon the PAF and PAC. Wing Commander Rafiq stated that the implementation phase was difficult, but on the back of the effort the PAF and PAC had undergone significant capacity building. Air Commodore Safdar stated, “The capability which we have achieved during this recovery … was beyond expectations … [PAC’s factories] achieved things which were beyond their original capacity.”
> 
> Upon completion of the repair work, the PAF CAS Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman flew on the very first test-sortie of the newly repaired aircraft. The first aircraft was repaired in two years, while the second was completed in one year following the first. Air Commodore Safdar stated that the cost of repairing the two aircraft was 5% of the original value, echoing an earlier statement by ACM Sohail Aman (when he said the cost of repairing the aircraft was $25 million U.S.) Safdar reiterated that Saab’s endorsement was a significant step, stating, “…the execution, if that is not done right, the aircraft flight safety and aircraft life is in serious jeopardy.” Safdar lauded Wing Commander Rafiq’s role in this regard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: PTV
> 
> The initiative also demonstrated to Air Headquarters (AHQ) that the PAF’s engineering capacity was being underutilized and that it could be steered towards assuming greater responsibility in complex areas, such as design. According to Air Commodore Riaz, “The [CAS] decided to set-up the first multi-disciplinary design centre in Kamra, the first of its kind in Pakistan, which has now been operating for about two years.” Riaz also touched upon the inauguration of Kamra Aviation City, which will serve the central role in the design and development of a 5th-generation fighter for the PAF.
> 
> *Notes & Comments:*
> 
> It appears that PAC accrued a significant enough understanding of the Saab 2000 and material capacity to serve as a depot-level maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) site. Footage of the repaired Erieye show that significant portions of the airframe had to be replaced and, in turn, tested. With the PAF adding more Erieye AEW&C, D-level MRO at PAC would be natural seeing that the Saab 2000 is a long-term factor.
> 
> This would also be PAC’s first foray into civilian and commuter-transport platforms. In due time, PAC will also be equipped with a Damage Tolerance Analysis and Structural Health Management System acquired from Critical Materials S.A. in Portugal. This will help the PAF and PAC to closely monitor airframe health and improve maintenance processes to ensure higher availability and to preserve airframe life. However, it is not known if PAC will venture into civil aircraft manufacturing. While the Kamra Aviation City envisages such activity, the intent may be to spur private investment in aircraft manufacturing.


----------



## aliyusuf

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...aab-2000-aircraft.613850/page-6#post-11374068
> 
> @HRK @aliyusuf


It is not moot that a 4th EriEye platform entered service recently. But what is moot is that it is the one that was written-off. It is most likely in my humble opinion that the 4th platform that is in service is one of the three new acquisition's integrated into an additional Saab-2000.

So eventually we will be ending up with 6 EriEye and 4 ZDK-03 means 10 AWACS ... in the near future.

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## Amaa'n

aliyusuf said:


> It is not moot that a 4th EriEye platform entered service recently. But what is moot is that it is the one that was written-off. It is most likely in my humble opinion that the 4th platform that is in service is one of the three new acquisition's integrated into an additional Saab-2000.
> 
> So eventually we will be ending up with 6 EriEye and 4 ZDK-03 means 10 AWACS ... in the near future.


4+3= 7 SAAB for AEWsq
1 Transport
3 ZDK AWAC
total AEWs = 11 



aliyusuf said:


> It is not moot that a 4th EriEye platform entered service recently. But what is moot is that it is the one that was written-off. It is most likely in my humble opinion that the 4th platform that is in service is one of the three new acquisition's integrated into an additional Saab-2000.
> 
> So eventually we will be ending up with 6 EriEye and 4 ZDK-03 means 10 AWACS ... in the near future.


4th Erieye System was received, not including airframe

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## Safriz

At the time of Kamra base attack financial situation of PAF was so bad that sentries on guarding duties had a few bullets in their magazines but the terrorists were fully loaded.
Some decided not to shoot as they saw no point , and later were court martialed. Others shot whatever few bullets they had and got shot .


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## aliyusuf

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> 4+3= 7 SAAB for AEWsq
> 1 Transport
> 3 ZDK AWAC
> total AEWs = 11
> 
> 
> 4th Erieye System was received, not including airframe


Let's say that I will be ecstatic if proven wrong. But some sort of reference to an evidence should first exist.


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## Safriz

Copied from Quwa.
You can actually see charring at the front and back

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## Pakistani Fighter

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> 3 ZDK AWAC


Sir I think we have 4 of these

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## HRK

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> But it was repaired too no?


nope


Foxtrot Alpha said:


> I remembered we discussed this at length


Confusion aroused when Airline.net posted picture of 10049 and mention date of sighting as August 12, 20*17* (airliner.net id 4515453 click here)





this is the _only picture of 10049_ after the incident and serial number is not visible, I too initially posted this pic on the forum [click here] but the last known activity of 10049 was in 2012






Foxtrot Alpha said:


> did we get the delivery of those three new?


yaap ....

In fact we have official confirmation of *6 *SAAB-2000 ERIEYE AEW&C from MODP year book 2017-18 [click here]

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## Amaa'n

aliyusuf said:


> Let's say that I will be ecstatic if proven wrong. But some sort of reference to an evidence should first exist.


Lets not do the enemy's work for them and keep them confused too....this is why i hate such discussions on open forum

From Terrorists to Journalists, friendly to hostile agencies, everyone visits PDF


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## aliyusuf

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Lets not do the enemy's work for them and keep them confused too....this is why i hate such discussions on open forum
> 
> From Terrorists to Journalists, friendly to hostile agencies, everyone visits PDF


Agreed, never intended to either. But @HRK response above  has actually cleared up what I was trying to say.

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## Amaa'n

aliyusuf said:


> Agreed, never intended to either. But @HRK response above  has actually cleared up what I was trying to say.


I still don't agree with that


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## aliyusuf

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> I still don't agree with that


Sir jee you are totally entitled to your opinion. 
And I fully respect your right to express it.
Thank you for a good discussion.

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## Apex

HRK said:


> nope
> 
> Confusion aroused when Airline.net posted picture of 10049 and mention date of sighting as August 12, 20*17* (airliner.net id 4515453 click here)
> View attachment 618930
> 
> 
> this is the _only picture of 10049_ after the incident and serial number is not visible, I too initially posted this pic on the forum [click here] but the last known activity of 10049 was in 2012
> View attachment 618932
> 
> 
> yaap ....
> 
> In fact we have official confirmation of *6 *SAAB-2000 ERIEYE AEW&C from MODP year book 2017-18 [click here]


Yep 6 are with radar while 2~3 are without it.who knows they too will be converted to AEW&C platform

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## Haris Ali2140

Apex said:


> Yep 6 are with radar while 2~3 are without it.who knows they too will be converted to AEW&C platform


Ameen to that and hope they also increase assets like DA-20s.

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## Zarvan

aliyusuf said:


> Let's say that I will be ecstatic if proven wrong. But some sort of reference to an evidence should first exist.







Watch this show. There were two AWACS at Kamra during attack one was damaged one was destroyed completely both were recovered and are in service for GOD sake

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## Pakistani Fighter

Apex said:


> Yep 6 are with radar while 2~3 are without it.who knows they too will be converted to AEW&C platform


I think we have total 7 SAAB


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## Safriz

Zarvan said:


> Watch this show. There were two AWACS at Kamra during attack one was damaged one was destroyed completely both were recovered and are in service for GOD sake


Yes at timestamp 23 he says 2 were damaged?

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## Apex

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I think we have total 7 SAAB


Nah we have 9 or 10 can't remember correctly (including those without radars)



Haris Ali2140 said:


> Ameen to that and hope they also increase assets like DA-20s.


Will update you on that soon.

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## Safriz

HRK said:


> nope
> 
> Confusion aroused when Airline.net posted picture of 10049 and mention date of sighting as August 12, 20*17* (airliner.net id 4515453 click here)
> View attachment 618930
> 
> 
> this is the _only picture of 10049_ after the incident and serial number is not visible, I too initially posted this pic on the forum [click here] but the last known activity of 10049 was in 2012
> View attachment 618932
> 
> 
> yaap ....
> 
> In fact we have official confirmation of *6 *SAAB-2000 ERIEYE AEW&C from MODP year book 2017-18 [click here]


Lets not forget that in 2012 there was a spare fuselage with designation "J" , of which we could not find any record, and the assumption was that the totalled fuselage of the AEW was gutted and Radar systems removed and fitted to this one?
I remember we spent about an year discussing this matter and could not agree


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## Path-Finder

would it not be plausible and economical to acquire more Saab 2000? demonstrated by PAF the ability to repair, rebuild and maintain the fuselage/chassis should push to develop an analog to Saab/Ericsson AEW&C by Pakistan as Pakistan has a good understanding of the whole system! Apart from AEW&C other surveillance and jammer aircraft can be made too.

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## HRK

Safriz said:


> Lets not forget that in 2012 there was a spare fuselage with designation "J" , of which we could not find any record, and the assumption was that the totalled fuselage of the AEW was gutted and Radar systems removed and fitted to this one?
> I remember we spent about an year discussing this matter and could not agree


it's not the case of additional fuselage which but additional radar systems which If I remember correctly only 3 were imported, as far as number of SAAB-2000 aircraft is concern we have imported 7 since 2016. 





also visit this link-1 to confirm date of deliveries of additional airfram to PAF

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## Safriz

HRK said:


> it's not the case of additional fuselage which but additional radar systems which If I remember correctly only 3 were imported, as far as number of SAAB-2000 aircraft is concern we have imported 7 since 2016.
> View attachment 618963
> 
> also visit this link-1 to confirm date of deliveries of additional airfram to PAF


Yes but the website you are referring to is a user contributions website , reliable but not official.

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## ziaulislam

HRK said:


> it's not the case of additional fuselage which but additional radar systems which If I remember correctly only 3 were imported, as far as number of SAAB-2000 aircraft is concern we have imported 7 since 2016.
> View attachment 618963
> 
> also visit this link-1 to confirm date of deliveries of additional airfram to PAF


What are we doing with so many?



Path-Finder said:


> would it not be plausible and economical to acquire more Saab 2000? demonstrated by PAF the ability to repair, rebuild and maintain the fuselage/chassis should push to develop an analog to Saab/Ericsson AEW&C by Pakistan as Pakistan has a good understanding of the whole system! Apart from AEW&C other surveillance and jammer aircraft can be made too.


A regional aircraft for PIA if they can get license ..SAAB isnt building or selling them anymore


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

ziaulislam said:


> What are we doing with so many?
> 
> 
> A regional aircraft for PIA if they can get license ..SAAB isnt building or selling them anymore


Check Quwa new article , these will be backbone of future warfare . Not too much . These are eyes and ears of PAF , thats y they were attacked by RAW backed terrorists .


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## Path-Finder

ziaulislam said:


> A regional aircraft for PIA if they can get license ..SAAB isnt building or selling them anymore


Acquire the ones in storages and those with good airframes.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> would it not be plausible and economical to acquire more Saab 2000? demonstrated by PAF the ability to repair, rebuild and maintain the fuselage/chassis should push to develop an analog to Saab/Ericsson AEW&C by Pakistan as Pakistan has a good understanding of the whole system! Apart from AEW&C other surveillance and jammer aircraft can be made too.


Saab must have the design information of the Saab 2000. It's a matter of building a facility (with the right jigs, etc) to manufacture it. The input sourcing would mostly be COTS anyways, especially for the engine, electronics, propellers, etc.

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## GriffinsRule

@aliyusuf PAF official history book itself states that 1 had major damage while 2 had minor damage. Since we repaired only two Saab 2000s back to service, the 3rd on was basically damaged beyond repair and a complete write-off.

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## HRK

GriffinsRule said:


> @aliyusuf PAF official history book itself states that 1 had major damage while 2 had minor damage. Since we repaired only two Saab 2000s back to service, the 3rd on was basically damaged beyond repair and a complete write-off.


if possible kindly post the snap to end the confusion of certain members .....



ziaulislam said:


> What are we doing with so many?


they must have something in their mind


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## GriffinsRule

HRK said:


> if possible kindly post the snap to end the confusion of certain members .....
> 
> 
> they must have something in their mind



Since the book covers 1999-2013, it doesn't offer details of the recovery effort but we know since then from multiple sources that only two aircraft were repaired.

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## Safriz

GriffinsRule said:


> Since the book covers 1999-2013, it doesn't offer details of the recovery effort but we know since then from multiple sources that only two aircraft were repaired.


Details of repair are in MODP year book 
@HRK

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## ziaulislam

HRK said:


> if possible kindly post the snap to end the confusion of certain members .....
> 
> 
> they must have something in their mind


63 were built and almost all are in storage..
as new jet based aircraft quickly replaced them in the era of low oil prices..it was kinda SAAB loss

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Saab must have the design information of the Saab 2000. It's a matter of building a facility (with the right jigs, etc) to manufacture it. The input sourcing would mostly be COTS anyways, especially for the engine, electronics, propellers, etc.


What I meant was acquire the ones that are in storages and those with good structural integrity used!

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## Dazzler

6+4

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-confirms-deliveries-of-follow-on-erieye-aew-c.638935/


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## Safriz

Dazzler said:


> 6+4
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-confirms-deliveries-of-follow-on-erieye-aew-c.638935/


Did PAF actually receive 4 erieye back in the days?
As far as I remember the 4th one was dubious.



Munir said:


> Even if India buys a few more.. Just remember the timeframe... How log ago did they order? I think that we can add some time before IAF receives those planes. And I bet newer versiosn will be newer so the old need to upgrade and people need to be trained etc etc.
> 
> Whether you buy new planes or add more into your inventory... It is never fast enough.


Munir has died.
There should be some indication as such for members who died.


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## Dazzler

Safriz said:


> Did PAF actually receive 4 erieye back in the days?
> As far as I remember the 4th one was dubious.
> 
> 
> Munir has died.
> There should be some indication as such for members who died.



Is English an alien language to you?

In its annual yearbook for 2017-2018, the Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) confirmed that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) took delivery of its sixth Saab 2000-based Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. The Directorate General of Defence Purchase (DGDP) ordered the sixth Erieye AEW&C from Saab for $94.95 million US in 2017-2018.[1]

Public export-import registries indicated that the PAF started implementing the follow-on Erieye program in April 2018, with deliveries concluding in April 2019. It appears that the additional Erieye AEW&C aircraft were integrated to three Saab 2000s procured from Skyworld Aviation in November 2018. In any case, the MoDP has basically confirmed that the PAF now operates six Erieye AEW&C aircraft.

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## Safriz

Dazzler said:


> Is English an alien language to you?
> 
> In its annual yearbook for 2017-2018, the Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) confirmed that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) took delivery of its sixth Saab 2000-based Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. The Directorate General of Defence Purchase (DGDP) ordered the sixth Erieye AEW&C from Saab for $94.95 million US in 2017-2018.[1]
> 
> Public export-import registries indicated that the PAF started implementing the follow-on Erieye program in April 2018, with deliveries concluding in April 2019. It appears that the additional Erieye AEW&C aircraft were integrated to three Saab 2000s procured from Skyworld Aviation in November 2018. In any case, the MoDP has basically confirmed that the PAF now operates six Erieye AEW&C aircraft.


بھائ صاحب سیدھے سادے سوال کا اتنا ٹیڑھا جواب ، جبکہ جواب دینا لازم بھی نہ تھا ۔
سوال برا لگا تو جواب دینے سے گریز کریں ۔
مسئلہ حل ؟
ویسے بھی غصہ صحت کے لئے اچھا نہیں ہوتا ۔

Having said that, you will be the first think tank in my ignore list.
Bye.

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## Ultima Thule

Safriz said:


> بھائ صاحب سیدھے سادے سوال کا اتنا ٹیڑھا جواب ، جبکہ جواب دینا لازم بھی نہ تھا ۔
> ویسے بھی غصہ صحت کے لئے اچھا نہیں ہوتا ۔
> 
> Having said that, you will be the first think tank in my ignore list.
> Bye.


Why you put him in your ignore list, he is on of the most respected analyst and informer here


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## Dazzler

Safriz said:


> بھائ صاحب سیدھے سادے سوال کا اتنا ٹیڑھا جواب ، جبکہ جواب دینا لازم بھی نہ تھا ۔
> سوال برا لگا تو جواب دینے سے گریز کریں ۔
> مسئلہ حل ؟
> ویسے بھی غصہ صحت کے لئے اچھا نہیں ہوتا ۔
> 
> Having said that, you will be the first think tank in my ignore list.
> Bye.



As if i give two hoot about it.

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## araz

There is a gem of a post from @Bilal Khan 777 on the topic of rebuild and repair of erieyes. It highlights what PAC did to recover the 4th platform. It is akin to the pheonix rising from the ashes of the older one.
A

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## Safriz

araz said:


> There is a gem of a post from @Bilal Khan 777 on the topic of rebuild and repair of erieyes. It highlights what PAC did to recover the 4th platform. It is akin to the pheonix rising from the ashes of the older one.
> A


جان کی امان پاؤں تو عرض کروں؟
PAF originally is said to have acquired 4 erieye.
Then PAF recently bought 3 kits from Sweden to be installed and assembled in Pakistan.
So thsts a grand total of 7?
But MODP year book said "6th AWACS"?
So there's the confusion.


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## Falcon26

Safriz said:


> جان کی امان پاؤں تو عرض کروں؟
> PAF originally is said to have acquired 4 erieye.
> Then PAF recently bought 3 kits from Sweden to be installed and assembled in Pakistan.
> So thsts a grand total of 7?
> But MODP year book said "6th AWACS"?
> So there's the confusion.



It’s a good confusion. Let people perpetually wonder whether it’s 5,6 or 7 erieyes.

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## Stealth



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## Haris Ali2140

Stealth said:


> View attachment 620049


Fighting the same battle but from miles away.


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## araz

Safriz said:


> جان کی امان پاؤں تو عرض کروں؟
> PAF originally is said to have acquired 4 erieye.
> Then PAF recently bought 3 kits from Sweden to be installed and assembled in Pakistan.
> So thsts a grand total of 7?
> But MODP year book said "6th AWACS"?
> So there's the confusion.


According to @Bilal Khan 777 I erieye was burnt to cinders. Two were heavily damaged. PAC repaired the two. They then bought another platform( i think they bought more than one to repair the other two). Saab was so embarrased by the fact that they had said the platforms cannot be repaired and PAC had done it. They sold us a Radar at a nominal rate. Now the confusion has arisen as to whether the subsequent order of 3 included this one or not. If it did then we have 6. If it did not then we have 7. I personally think PAF wanted 6 initially so this is/what they have managed to achieve. Personally I do not think it matters whether we have 6 or 7. Let PAF maintain a little bit of secrecy. The important thing is we achieved a huge task of repairing these heavily damaged platforms when the OEM had clearly stated that these could not be repaired.
A

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## HRK

araz said:


> According to @Bilal Khan 777 I erieye was burnt to cinders. Two were heavily damaged. PAC raired the two. They then bought another platform( i think they bought more than one to repair the other two). Saabwas so embarrased by the fact that they had said the platforms cannot be repaired and PAC had done it. They sold us a Radar at a nominal rate. Now the confusion has arisen as to whether the subsequent order of 3 included this one or not. If it did then we have 6. If it did not then we have 7. I personally think PAF wanted 6 initially so this is/what they have managed to achieve. Personally I do not think it matters wherher we have 6 or 7. Let PAF maintain a little bit of secrecy. The important thing is we achieved a huge task of repairing these heavily damaged platforms when the OEM had clearly stated that these could not be repaired.
> A


for those member who might become curious to read Bilal Khan post could read it here

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## DANGER-ZONE

araz said:


> According to @Bilal Khan 777 I erieye was burnt to cinders. Two were heavily damaged. PAC raired the two. They then bought another platform( i think they bought more than one to repair the other two). Saabwas so embarrased by the fact that they had said the platforms cannot be repaired and PAC had done it. They sold us a Radar at a nominal rate. Now the confusion has arisen as to whether the subsequent order of 3 included this one or not. If it did then we have 6. If it did not then we have 7. I personally think PAF wanted 6 initially so this is/what they have managed to achieve. Personally I do not think it matters wherher we have 6 or 7. Let PAF maintain a little bit of secrecy. The important thing is we achieved a huge task of repairing these heavily damaged platforms when the OEM had clearly stated that these could not be repaired.
> A



I think of it a lot of time that if we could repair the damaged Saab Erieye and can convert a Saab-2000 into an Erieye inhouse then we should also replace ZDK-03's radar with Erieye / Ericsson AESA radar. Although members here have always said that ZDK-03 has AESA radar but Chinese sources have never made such a claim. And I've also come to know that PAF is not very much satisfied with ZDK-03 and it was nowhere to be seen in Op. Swift Retort. Therefore we have a platform, if we could install an Erieye radar & systems in it then we'll have two advantages which are having a superior AESA radar and that too with 360-degree coverage.


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## Shabi1

DANGER-ZONE said:


> I think of it a lot of time that if we could repair the damaged Saab Erieye and can convert a Saab-2000 into an Erieye inhouse then we should also replace ZDK-03's radar with Erieye / Ericsson AESA radar. Although members here have always said that ZDK-03 has AESA radar but Chinese sources have never made such a claim. And I've also come to know that PAF is not very much satisfied with ZDK-03 and it was nowhere to be seen in Op. Swift Retort. Therefore we have a platform, if we could install an Erieye radar & systems in it then we'll have two advantages which are having a superior AESA radar and that too with 360-degree coverage.


Erieyes were used in Swift retort because they can guide AMRAAMs and link up with F-16s using link 16. ZDK-03 is in use for primarily sea coverage. Both type of AWACs have their pluses. I can't find information on ZDK-03 radar but did find that it has a open architecture because Pakistan wanted a up gradable platform. ZDK-06 was later released with a AESA, possibility is high that they might have or are planned to be upgraded without public knowledge. Link 17 was also likely added.

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## Haris Ali2140

1) Terrorists attack PAF Kamra. Blow up AWACS. Initially claimed only nose is damaged. Some argued all 3 AWACS which were on ground blew up only one survived which was in the air. Some members (claimed to be insiders) said 1 was completely blown up while 2 were damaged extensively. PAF never cleared their stance. In assembly defence minister said one AWACS was completely destroyed.

2) Members (notably Bilal Khan 777) claimed that 1 is W/O while 2 are repaired bringing the number to 3 operational AWACS. Source

3)At the same time PAF signed another contract with SAAB of *US $170 millions*. Source.

4) MoDP's annual report states that PAF has successfully recovered 4th destroyed AWACS. Source

5)PAF signs contact to acquire 3 more EriEye AWACS systems for *US $155 millions*. Source

Draw your conclusions.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Shabi1 said:


> *Erieyes were used in Swift retort because they can guide AMRAAMs*


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## Shabi1

DANGER-ZONE said:


>


It's called cooperative engagement mode or capability.

look at center mode. Erieyes guiding AMRAAMs fired from Gripens acting as delivery trucks.

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## HRK

DANGER-ZONE said:


> And I've also come to know that PAF is not very much satisfied with ZDK-03 and it was nowhere to be seen in Op. Swift Retort.


During those days I use to see it flying daily .....

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## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> ha ha. Yes, i could not longer take it! Okay, one aircraft written off, two aircraft damaged, port and starboard side, all vertical services, radar air intakes, and outer panels, and vertical stabilizers and outer skins, such as in any high heat damage. Detailed surveys were done by PAC, those guys are very good. Most of these repairs were done by PAF. Most structure items were manufactured locally. Techniques developed to replicate SAAB's superior manufacturing skills. Two SAAB 2000 airline birds were taken from market, also some of the requirement parts. One come in complete pieces as were required, and was used to recover one aircraft. Other 02 flew in, one was used to recover the other bird, and now is a Christmas tree for support of fleet. One complete suite was procured from SAAB. A complete flying aircraft will now be fitted locally with the complete suite. This is the complete story. Now you can plug in the holes from public releases. Doubters will remain as doubters. As ACM Sohail Aman says, it is true. Over 200 Million USD were saved from SAAB's offer. Credit goes to him for his leadership in current and previous role. First SAAB refused to help, so PAF started working on their own. Then they came crying and sold the one complete ERIEYE system for pittance. Again Credit to ACM Sohail Aman. At the end, PAF has 04 SAAB again. A slap on the face of the enemy who uses cowardly asymmetric attacks against platforms that change the ORBAT in INDOPAK or AFPAK scenario. Cheers.


@HRK .
This is the post I was alluding to. I hope @Bilal Khan 777 is doing well and wish him the best of luck. He is an assett to this forum and I fear a few of us were a bit too abrasive and even disrespectful to a very senior PAF veteran
Regards

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## Pakistani Fighter

Shabi1 said:


> It's called cooperative engagement mode or capability.
> 
> look at center mode. Erieyes guiding AMRAAMs fired from Gripens acting as delivery trucks.
> View attachment 620170


I don't think our AWACs have the capability now to guide AAMs


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## Haris Ali2140

DANGER-ZONE said:


> I think of it a lot of time that if we could repair the damaged Saab Erieye and can convert a Saab-2000 into an Erieye inhouse then we should also replace ZDK-03's radar with Erieye / Ericsson AESA radar. Although members here have always said that ZDK-03 has AESA radar but Chinese sources have never made such a claim. And I've also come to know that PAF is not very much satisfied with ZDK-03 and it was nowhere to be seen in Op. Swift Retort. Therefore we have a platform, if we could install an Erieye radar & systems in it then we'll have two advantages which are having a superior AESA radar and that too with 360-degree coverage.


ZDK-03s are based in Karachi. Whereas operation took place in northern sector. Can you move such assets just for one mission???

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## Shabi1

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I don't think our AWACs have the capability now to guide AAMs


Even MLUed F-16s have data link via link-16 that is in a flight group a single jet turns ON radar and shares the data with rest while rest can keep their radars off.

Turks already confirmed capability on their jets.

https://www.china-arms.com/2020/03/su35-no-match-for-f16/


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> @HRK .
> This is the post I was alluding to. I hope @Bilal Khan 777 is doing well and wish him the best of luck. He is an assett to this forum and I fear a few of us were a bit too abrasive and even disrespectful to a very senior PAF veteran
> Regards


We also have to remember that @Bilal Khan 777 is a veteran and a real-world senior. He says it straight and sharp, and a lot of us weren't used to that, or took it the wrong way (since we're all online). Words can seem harsher than they're actually are (and that's why using emojis is a good idea!)

That said, in reading those details, you can start seeing why PAC was interested in producing a single-aisle airliner. I personally like the Saab 2000, so I hope there's a way to resurrect its production (but in Pakistan).

Most of the Saab 2000's core inputs (e.g., engine, propeller, avionics, etc) are COTS, so I suspect it's more of an issue of getting the design/IP from Saab so that we can set-up its jigs in Pakistan.

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## araz

araz said:


> @HRK .
> This is the post I was alluding to. I hope @Bilal Khan 777 is doing well and wish him the best of luck. He is an assett to this forum and I fear a few of us were a bit too abrasive and even disrespectful to a very senior PAF veteran
> Regards


Adding to this post is an excerpt of another post from me and response from him.
Me:-
"Thank you. Great post. What about the 3 new ones. Do we have any part in the assembly which indicates the cost or are they being assembled and shifted to Pak."
A
@Bilal Khan 777
"New will come as new as contracted."

This means we will have 7 Erieyes. In my view these 3 posts from him will resolve any confusion in the mind of posters.
A

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## ziaulislam

Safriz said:


> جان کی امان پاؤں تو عرض کروں؟
> PAF originally is said to have acquired 4 erieye.
> Then PAF recently bought 3 kits from Sweden to be installed and assembled in Pakistan.
> So thsts a grand total of 7?
> But MODP year book said "6th AWACS"?
> So there's the confusion.


Confusion is whther the three kits were additional or whether 1 of them was used for reclaiming the old system. So I am not clear whether ultimately will there be 6or 7 units



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We also have to remember that @Bilal Khan 777 is a veteran and a real-world senior. He says it straight and sharp, and a lot of us weren't used to that, or took it the wrong way (since we're all online). Words can seem harsher than they're actually are (and that's why using emojis is a good idea!)
> 
> That said, in reading those details, you can start seeing why PAC was interested in producing a single-aisle airliner. I personally like the Saab 2000, so I hope there's a way to resurrect its production (but in Pakistan).
> 
> Most of the Saab 2000's core inputs (e.g., engine, propeller, avionics, etc) are COTS, so I suspect it's more of an issue of getting the design/IP from Saab so that we can set-up its jigs in Pakistan.


How good is current saab eryie for surface sea survilance. Seeing we are really getting alot of systems

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## araz

DANGER-ZONE said:


> I think of it a lot of time that if we could repair the damaged Saab Erieye and can convert a Saab-2000 into an Erieye inhouse then we should also replace ZDK-03's radar with Erieye / Ericsson AESA radar. Although members here have always said that ZDK-03 has AESA radar but Chinese sources have never made such a claim. And I've also come to know that PAF is not very much satisfied with ZDK-03 and it was nowhere to be seen in Op. Swift Retort. Therefore we have a platform, if we could install an Erieye radar & systems in it then we'll have two advantages which are having a superior AESA radar and that too with 360-degree coverage.


ZDK03 had a PESA.It was due to be changed to an AESA. Current status unknown.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> Confusion is whther the three kits were additional or whether 1 of them was used for reclaiming the old system. So I am not clear whether ultimately will there be 6or 7 units
> 
> 
> How good is current saab eryie for surface sea survilance. Seeing we are really getting alot of systems


The Erieye has a range of 352 km and surface coverage area of 500,000 km(2). Our EEZ's surface area is 290,000 km(2), so in terms of localized situational awareness, it's really good. You combine that with the PN's plans for its own MALE UAVs and LRMPAs (which will use their own AESA radars), and the armed forces eventually using satellites (IMINT, RSS, etc), we shouldn't have any trouble monitoring our waters or neighbouring seas.

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## Readerdefence

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Erieye has a range of 352 km and surface coverage area of 500,000 km(2). Our EEZ's surface area is 290,000 km(2), so in terms of localized situational awareness, it's really good. You combine that with the PN's plans for its own MALE UAVs and LRMPAs (which will use their own AESA radars), and the armed forces eventually using satellites (IMINT, RSS, etc), we shouldn't have any trouble monitoring our waters or neighbouring seas.


Hi if I may ask in 24 hours of cycle how many we need in air at a time 
Thank you


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## TheTallGuy

Readerdefence said:


> Hi if I may ask in 24 hours of cycle how many we need in air at a time
> Thank you



Indian NETRA were up in last operational deployment for 6 hours at a time.


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## Safriz

araz said:


> Adding to this post is an excerpt of another post from me and response from him.
> Me:-
> "Thank you. Great post. What about the 3 new ones. Do we have any part in the assembly which indicates the cost or are they being assembled and shifted to Pak."
> A
> @Bilal Khan 777
> "New will come as new as contracted."
> 
> This means we will have 7 Erieyes. In my view these 3 posts from him will resolve any confusion in the mind of posters.
> A


So that's 7 in total.


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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Erieye has a range of 352 km and surface coverage area of 500,000 km(2). Our EEZ's surface area is 290,000 km(2), so in terms of localized situational awareness, it's really good. You combine that with the PN's plans for its own MALE UAVs and LRMPAs (which will use their own AESA radars), and the armed forces eventually using satellites (IMINT, RSS, etc), we shouldn't have any trouble monitoring our waters or neighbouring seas.


surveillance of our seas is absolutely important, we learned the lesson in the 1970s. The whole country depends upon a single port basically..with gawadar just starting

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## Readerdefence

TheTallGuy said:


> Indian NETRA were up in last operational deployment for 6 hours at a time.


Hi thanks for your reply so roughly paf/PN need four for 24 hours of cycle 
Thank you


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## ali_raza

i leave a question for all seniors here.
wht is the specification of 3 new bought erieyes?
anyone?


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## nomi007

ali_raza said:


> i leave a question for all seniors here.
> wht is the specification of 3 new bought erieyes?
> anyone?


Non awacs variants


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## ali_raza

nomi007 said:


> Non awacs variants


awacs aew i meat the radar not plane


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## Dazzler

No wonder they hate Erieyes...

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## Pakistani Fighter

Dazzler said:


> No wonder they hate Erieyes...


Why its shown a White Blonde? Indian women are not white nor blonde

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## mig25

Dazzler said:


> No wonder they hate Erieyes...


Sorry but this is in such bad taste. Portraying women like this will only show your military in bad light in today's day and age. Feel free to disagree.

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## Dazzler

mig25 said:


> Sorry but this is in such bad taste. Portraying women like this will only show your military in bad light in today's day and age. Feel free to disagree.



Disagreed.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Why its shown a White Blonde? Indian women are not white nor blonde



To whom it may concern

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## Hassan Guy

Dazzler said:


> No wonder they hate Erieyes...


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## HRK

> Sorry but this is in such bad taste. Portraying women like this will only show your military in bad light in today's day and age. Feel free to disagree.


women figure in that badge is NOT representing gender of women but the STATE OF INDIA it is not our mistake that they claim Indian as their 'Mother' or as they say in their native language 'Baharat Mata' ....

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## mig25

HRK said:


> women figure in that badge is representing gender of women but the STATE OF INDIA it is not our mistake that they claim Indian as their 'Mother' or as they say in their native language 'Baharat Mata' ....


"Mata" in Hindi is Mother. Now you just made it worse. 
Anyway not looking for any justification or reason. It was only my observation.


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## Dazzler

mig25 said:


> "Mata" in Hindi is Mother. Now you just made it worse.
> Anyway not looking for any justification or reason. It was only my observation.



Cut this nonsense and open another thread for your rhetoric.

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## Dazzler

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253912179058724864


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mig25 said:


> Sorry but this is in such bad taste. Portraying women like this will only show your military in bad light in today's day and age. Feel free to disagree.


I agree. Let's say it wasn't intended as objectification, at the minimum, it shows a level of immaturity and laughable lack of creativity. This isn't us.

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## Pakistani Fighter

SAABs are coming to Bholari under new Squadron


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## Yasser76

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> SAABs are coming to Bholari under new Squadron



Makes sense, split the 6 planes into 2 3 plane sqds, one for south one for north, as we also seem to have 4 odd normal SAAB 2000s I would split these as well between the two squadrons so each one has it's own transport planes and can use them to qualify pilots and keep current without using a radar equipped plane. This would give you excellent north/south coverage. Basically Boholari with 5 planes (3 Erieye + 2 standard SAAB 2000) and Kamra with 5 planes (3 Erieye + 2 standard SAAB 2000)


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## Path-Finder

Is the number of AEW&C in service sufficient for now?

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## Hassan Guy

Path-Finder said:


> Is the number of AEW&C in service sufficient for now?


looking at the money we have in the bank, i'm sure it is.


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## Mughal-Prince

Safriz said:


> جان کی امان پاؤں تو عرض کروں؟
> PAF originally is said to have acquired 4 erieye.
> Then PAF recently bought 3 kits from Sweden to be installed and assembled in Pakistan.
> So thsts a grand total of 7?
> But MODP year book said "6th AWACS"?
> So there's the confusion.


Sir one of the Erieye was totally lost in Kamra attack so 3 left and 3 new kits mean 6 in total if I am not wrong.


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## Zarvan

Mughal-Prince said:


> Sir one of the Erieye was totally lost in Kamra attack so 3 left and 3 new kits mean 6 in total if I am not wrong.


All initial 4 are operational

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## Apex

Zarvan said:


> All initial 4 are operational


Not true. Out of the three damaged two were repaired but one was a write off. It was so badly damaged that you could see some of its parts turned to ashes.

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## Mughal-Prince

Zarvan said:


> All initial 4 are operational



Thanks for correction mate.


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## araz

Apex said:


> Not true. Out of the three damaged two were repaired but one was a write off. It was so badly damaged that you could see some of its parts turned to ashes.


Please see the quoted post #5478 2 pages back. The poster is a senior PAF official . I believe his account more than most posters on PDF.
Thanks.
A


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## Zarvan

Apex said:


> Not true. Out of the three damaged two were repaired but one was a write off. It was so badly damaged that you could see some of its parts turned to ashes.


Two were damaged and both were recovered



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> ha ha. Yes, i could not longer take it! Okay, one aircraft written off, two aircraft damaged, port and starboard side, all vertical services, radar air intakes, and outer panels, and vertical stabilizers and outer skins, such as in any high heat damage. Detailed surveys were done by PAC, those guys are very good. Most of these repairs were done by PAF. Most structure items were manufactured locally. Techniques developed to replicate SAAB's superior manufacturing skills. Two SAAB 2000 airline birds were taken from market, also some of the requirement parts. One come in complete pieces as were required, and was used to recover one aircraft. Other 02 flew in, one was used to recover the other bird, and now is a Christmas tree for support of fleet. One complete suite was procured from SAAB. A complete flying aircraft will now be fitted locally with the complete suite. This is the complete story. Now you can plug in the holes from public releases. Doubters will remain as doubters. As ACM Sohail Aman says, it is true. Over 200 Million USD were saved from SAAB's offer. Credit goes to him for his leadership in current and previous role. First SAAB refused to help, so PAF started working on their own. Then they came crying and sold the one complete ERIEYE system for pittance. Again Credit to ACM Sohail Aman. At the end, PAF has 04 SAAB again. A slap on the face of the enemy who uses cowardly asymmetric attacks against platforms that change the ORBAT in INDOPAK or AFPAK scenario. Cheers.


And now 3 more I mean 3 which we ordered recently ???

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## razgriz19

"I would split these as well.." 

It's good that people like you aren't running the show. With your kind of knowledge we would be doomed and gloomed long ago.

Please restrain yourself from saying such phrases, it only makes you a laughing stock.

There's something called logistics. Ever wondered why Hercs are stationed at one base permanently? That's your answer


Yasser76 said:


> Makes sense, split the 6 planes into 2 3 plane sqds, one for south one for north, as we also seem to have 4 odd normal SAAB 2000s I would split these as well between the two squadrons so each one has it's own transport planes and can use them to qualify pilots and keep current without using a radar equipped plane. This would give you excellent north/south coverage. Basically Boholari with 5 planes (3 Erieye + 2 standard SAAB 2000) and Kamra with 5 planes (3 Erieye + 2 standard SAAB 2000)


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## Pakistani Fighter

araz said:


> Please see the quoted post #5478 2 pages back. The poster is a senior PAF official . I believe his account more than most posters on PDF.
> Thanks.
> A


So how many Erieyes we have in total?


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## notorious_eagle

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So how many Erieyes we have in total?



7

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## araz

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So how many Erieyes we have in total?


7 by his count.
A


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## GriffinsRule

araz said:


> Please see the quoted post #5478 2 pages back. The poster is a senior PAF official . I believe his account more than most posters on PDF.
> Thanks.
> A


The official history of PAF also supports one aircraft destroyed and two repaired.


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## araz

GriffinsRule said:


> The official history of PAF also supports one aircraft destroyed and two repaired.


So in your view how many do we currently have. My understanding from the quoted post was that 2 separate contracts were executed one for a silitary radar for the replacement and 3 others for new ones. So the lost one was replaced and 3 more were acquired. Now the confusion has arisen out of whether there was a separate contract for a solitary radar or was there one contract for 3 radars.
A


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## Blacklight

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So how many Erieyes we have in total?


How many Erieye ER's we have in total, should be the question!

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## SD 10

Blacklight said:


> How many Erieye ER's we have in total, should be the question!


THought we only have the erieye and not the ER version?

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## Apex

6 saab-2000 are present with radars and all the kits. While 4 are present without them some would eventually be fitted with radars as a new squardon is to be formed at bohlari.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Apex said:


> 6 saab-200 are present with radars and all the kits. While 4 are present without them some would eventually be fitted with radars as a new squardon is to be formed at bohlari.


I hope we fit the other ones with ER version

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## mshan44



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## Blacklight

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I hope we fit the other ones with ER version


Last three are ER.

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## araz

Blacklight said:


> Last three are ER.


What is your source for this. All indications are that the radar suite on all the Saabs is the same.
A

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## Safriz

Blacklight said:


> Last three are ER.


None are ER.
The ER has a range of 650 Km and only in Global eye version.
Erieye is different technology and has 450 Km range.
There are techniques used in AESA radars where range can be extended a bit by focusing the radar energy.


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## Readerdefence

Safriz said:


> None are ER.
> The ER has a range of 650 Km and only in Global eye version.
> Erieye is different technology and has 450 Km range.
> There are techniques used in AESA radars where range can be extended a bit by focusing the radar energy.


Hi can these be used as a SIGiNT or ECM kind of plane 
Thank you


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## Safriz

Readerdefence said:


> Hi can these be used as a SIGiNT or ECM kind of plane
> Thank you


AESA is different from traditional radars and techniques are also different. There are ways of using AESA as jamming radar by focussing energy on enemy radar.
Pakistan initially got washed down version of erieye without SIGINT / ELINT but later third party equipment were added for the purpose and current versions being used by PAF does have SIGINT / ELINT capabilities.

Probably posted before, but here is the company blurb from 2013.

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## ali_raza

Safriz said:


> AESA is different from traditional radars and techniques are also different. There are ways of using AESA as jamming radar by focussing energy on enemy radar.
> Pakistan initially got washed down version of erieye without SIGINT / ELINT but later third party equipment were added for the purpose and current versions being used by PAF does have SIGINT / ELINT capabilities.
> 
> Probably posted before, but here is the company blurb from 2013.
> 
> View attachment 629491
> View attachment 629492
> 
> View attachment 629490


so whts the capabilities of latest purchased 3 units?

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## Aryeih Leib

How does zdk compare with saab awacs 

No troll please


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## Blacklight

araz said:


> What is your source for this. All indications are that the radar suite on all the Saabs is the same.
> A


Sirjee, I cannot open PM's on this forum, and something are better left unsaid on an open forum.



Safriz said:


> None are ER.



Sirjee, we used them on the 27th of Feb 2019. 



Safriz said:


> The ER has a range of 650 Km and only in Global eye version.
> Erieye is different technology and has 450 Km range.
> There are techniques used in AESA radars where range can be extended a bit by focusing the radar energy.


Secondly, kids will hound you for a source, here is one:

_Equipped with Gallium Nitride (GaN) and other technologies, the Erieye ER is an active electronically scanned array (AESA) system that doubles the radar's power efficiency compared with previous Erieye iterations. It has a range in excess of 650 km that can be extended by focusing the radar's energy.
https://www.janes.com/article/95842/uae-receives-first-globaleye-aew-c-aircraft_

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## The Raven

Blacklight said:


> Sirjee, I cannot open PM's on this forum, and something are better left unsaid on an open forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Sirjee, we used them on the 27th of Feb 2019.
> 
> 
> Secondly, kids will hound you for a source, here is one:
> 
> _Equipped with Gallium Nitride (GaN) and other technologies, the Erieye ER is an active electronically scanned array (AESA) system that doubles the radar's power efficiency compared with previous Erieye iterations. It has a range in excess of 650 km that can be extended by focusing the radar's energy.
> https://www.janes.com/article/95842/uae-receives-first-globaleye-aew-c-aircraft_



Where does it say Pakistan operates this?


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## Blacklight

The Raven said:


> Where does it say Pakistan operates this?


Did I say this source says Pakistan operates it? 

Secondly, pls feel free to believe what you like. Don't change your opinion on my behalf.

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## The Raven

Blacklight said:


> Did I say this source says Pakistan operates it?
> 
> Secondly, pls feel free to believe what you like. Don't change your opinion on my behalf.



I don't have to "believe" anything, because facts (something which is in short supply with quite a lot of people on here) show that we do not operate the ER version. Unless facts suggest otherwise, any Tom, Dick or Harry can claim whatever he/she likes based on what his/her uncle's, brother's, imaginary friend may have said. But it's nothing new, most of Pakistan's society is like that, so it's not really your fault, it's just symptomatic of the culture.


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## Blacklight

The Raven said:


> I don't have to "believe" anything, because facts (something which is in short supply with quite a lot of people on here) show that we do not operate the ER version. Unless facts suggest otherwise, any Tom, Dick or Harry can claim whatever he/she likes based on what his/her uncle's, brother's, imaginary friend may have said. But it's nothing new, most of Pakistan's society is like that, so it's not really your fault, it's just symptomatic of the culture.


Bhai kaway wohi khao, jiss kay liyae tum mashoor ho!

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## Bossman

The Raven said:


> I don't have to "believe" anything, because facts (something which is in short supply with quite a lot of people on here) show that we do not operate the ER version. Unless facts suggest otherwise, any Tom, Dick or Harry can claim whatever he/she likes based on what his/her uncle's, brother's, imaginary friend may have said. But it's nothing new, most of Pakistan's society is like that, so it's not really your fault, it's just symptomatic of the culture.



I think you have very high expectations from an open forum mostly frequented by kids and retirees. It’s not a Clearing House for top secret information for your benefit. Having said that a lot of real information can still be garnered from rumors, loose talk, bar talk, BS and other unreliable sources.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> Bhai kaway wohi khao, jiss kay liyae tum mashoor ho!


Are ZDKs AESA or not?


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## Blacklight

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Are ZDKs AESA or not?


Kaway say poocho, dekho kiya bongi marta hai.

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## The Raven

Bossman said:


> I think you have very high expectations from an open forum mostly frequented by kids and retirees. It’s not a Clearing House for top secret information for your benefit. Having said that a lot of real information can still be garnered from rumors, loose talk, bar talk, BS and other unreliable sources.



I don't expect anything from kids and retirees as you say, but that equally applies to calling out BS when it is.

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## Readerdefence

Safriz said:


> AESA is different from traditional radars and techniques are also different. There are ways of using AESA as jamming radar by focussing energy on enemy radar.
> Pakistan initially got washed down version of erieye without SIGINT / ELINT but later third party equipment were added for the purpose and current versions being used by PAF does have SIGINT / ELINT capabilities.
> 
> Probably posted before, but here is the company blurb from 2013.
> 
> View attachment 629491
> View attachment 629492
> 
> View attachment 629490


Hi thanks for your answer with the detailed link which is very useful to understand the Saab system


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## Scorpiooo

Any news regarding increasing the numbers of saab and ZDKs for role of AEW&C or PAF want go with ssme numbers


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## Yasser76

Scorpiooo said:


> Any news regarding increasing the numbers of saab and ZDKs for role of AEW&C or PAF want go with ssme numbers



I think for a country Pak's size we have more then enough. In terms of AEW&C aircraft we have the 3rd or 4th largest fleet in the world. 6/7 Erieyes and 4 ZDKs means we can probably have 3 aircraft constantly on the air during wartime. Unsure if we need more

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## Ali_Baba

I suspect PAF is waiting for the next leap in technology in China for AWACS/AEW&C before ordering 4 more of the latest, that seems to be the strategy now, but units of every increasing batches that are supportable and can be upgraded.

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## Scorpiooo

Yasser76 said:


> I think for a country Pak's size we have more then enough. In terms of AEW&C aircraft we have the 3rd or 4th largest fleet in the world. 6/7 Erieyes and 4 ZDKs means we can probably have 3 aircraft constantly on the air during wartime. Unsure if we need more


As mention 6/7 saab erieyes, only 4 are these remaing 2 just transport plan nothing fitted on them



Ali_Baba said:


> I suspect PAF is waiting for the next leap in technology in China for AWACS/AEW&C before ordering 4 more of the latest, that seems to be the strategy now, but units of every increasing batches that are supportable and can be upgraded.


Can be possible


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## Pakistani Fighter

Ali_Baba said:


> I suspect PAF is waiting for the next leap in technology in China for AWACS/AEW&C before ordering 4 more of the latest, that seems to be the strategy now, but units of every increasing batches that are supportable and can be upgraded.


ZDKs should be upgraded to AESA

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## Akh1112

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> ZDKs should be upgraded to AESA




It is unconfirmed whether they are AESA but its more than likely that they are


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## Danish Moazzam

Scorpiooo said:


> As mention 6/7 saab erieyes, only 4 are these remaing 2 just transport plan nothing fitted on them
> 
> 
> Can be possible



6/7 Operational, the damaged ones were repaired and re-certified, new equipment installed. The ambisuity in number is if all the 03 of the first batch are operational or only two were made operational.


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## Scorpiooo

Danish Moazzam said:


> 6/7 Operational, the damaged ones were repaired and re-certified, new equipment installed. The ambisuity in number is if all the 03 of the first batch are operational or only two were made operational.


Yes true 2 previous that were restored and 2 new, making total 4 
Remaining 2 are just normal transport aircraft, may used for training or other utilization, may in future thay will converted too


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## nomi007

mig25 said:


> Sorry but this is in such bad taste. Portraying women like this will only show your military in bad light in today's day and age. Feel free to disagree.


But tea was fantastic


----------



## khanasifm

Paf had revealed per Alan waren 3 new aircraft based awacs fro Sweden were ordered bringing total to 6

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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> I think for a country Pak's size we have more then enough. In terms of AEW&C aircraft we have the 3rd or 4th largest fleet in the world. 6/7 Erieyes and 4 ZDKs means we can probably have 3 aircraft constantly on the air during wartime. Unsure if we need more


if any we need more Drones for survillance and point defence fighters with stand off weapons like thunder(assuming buying a full blown fighter is simply too expenisve for pakistan)

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## Scorpiooo

khanasifm said:


> Paf had revealed per Alan waren 3 new aircraft based awacs fro Sweden were ordered bringing total to 6


Any source refrence


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## nomi007



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## Kingslayerr

Hi. Hamaray ZDKs actually china may hain upgradation k liya ya ye bs ek speculation thi?


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## Zarvan

Kingslayerr said:


> Hi. Hamaray ZDKs actually china may hain upgradation k liya ya ye bs ek speculation thi?


When they will get upgraded all will not be sent in one go. I think it would be done in batches of 2

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## Kingslayerr

Zarvan said:


> When they will get upgraded all will not be sent in one go. I think it would be done in batches of 2


So they are being upgraded?


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## airomerix

Smokey beast.

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## HRK

airomerix said:


> Smokey beast.
> 
> View attachment 632770


see it flying almost every day .... they does not give this much smook at least at the stage of the flight when they fly above my house .... so may be only in certain condition they show this problem


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## Safriz

HRK said:


> see it flying almost every day .... they does not give this much smook at least at the stage of the flight when they fly above my house .... so may be only in certain condition they show this problem


It's more to do with picture editing.
I can make it look more smoky than the Bedford trucks

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## RangeMaster

Pakistan...??? 

18 May 2020
Saab has signed a contract and received an order for the Airborne Early Warning and Control solution Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C. The order value is 1.553 billion SEK. Deliveries will be made between 2020 and 2023.
The industry’s nature is such that due to circumstances concerning the product and customer, further information about the customer will not be announced.
Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C is a complete AEW&C system with multi-role and multi-mission capabilities for both military and civil needs.
It is based on the Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with Saab’s airborne radar Erieye and a range of other sensors. The solution gives the user detailed situational awareness and can be used for tasks including border surveillance and search-and-rescue operations.
Saab will carry out the work in Gothenburg, Järfälla, Linköping, Luleå and Arboga, Sweden.
For further information, please contact:
Saab Press Centre,
Ann Wolgers, Press Officer
+46 (0)734 180 018,
presscentre@saabgroup.com
www.saabgroup.com
www.saabgroup.com/YouTube

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## Scorpiooo

RangeMaster said:


> Pakistan...???
> 
> 18 May 2020
> Saab has signed a contract and received an order for the Airborne Early Warning and Control solution Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C. The order value is 1.553 billion SEK. Deliveries will be made between 2020 and 2023.
> The industry’s nature is such that due to circumstances concerning the product and customer, further information about the customer will not be announced.
> Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C is a complete AEW&C system with multi-role and multi-mission capabilities for both military and civil needs.
> It is based on the Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with Saab’s airborne radar Erieye and a range of other sensors. The solution gives the user detailed situational awareness and can be used for tasks including border surveillance and search-and-rescue operations.
> Saab will carry out the work in Gothenburg, Järfälla, Linköping, Luleå and Arboga, Sweden.
> For further information, please contact:
> Saab Press Centre,
> Ann Wolgers, Press Officer
> +46 (0)734 180 018,
> presscentre@saabgroup.com
> www.saabgroup.com
> www.saabgroup.com/YouTube


No hint related to Pakistan , so how can we associate it with Pakistan?


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## Blacklight

RangeMaster said:


> Pakistan...???
> 
> 18 May 2020
> Saab has signed a contract and received an order for the Airborne Early Warning and Control solution Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C. The order value is 1.553 billion SEK. Deliveries will be made between 2020 and 2023.
> The industry’s nature is such that due to circumstances concerning the product and customer, further information about the customer will not be announced.
> Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C is a complete AEW&C system with multi-role and multi-mission capabilities for both military and civil needs.
> It is based on the Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with Saab’s airborne radar Erieye and a range of other sensors. The solution gives the user detailed situational awareness and can be used for tasks including border surveillance and search-and-rescue operations.
> Saab will carry out the work in Gothenburg, Järfälla, Linköping, Luleå and Arboga, Sweden.
> For further information, please contact:
> Saab Press Centre,
> Ann Wolgers, Press Officer
> +46 (0)734 180 018,
> presscentre@saabgroup.com
> www.saabgroup.com
> www.saabgroup.com/YouTube


1.553 Bn SEK = US$157.23m

Lets see who comes up with the details of this order

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> 1.553 Bn SEK = US$157.23m
> 
> Lets see who comes up with the details of this order


Your guess ?

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## Caprxl

Blacklight said:


> 1.553 Bn SEK = US$157.23m
> 
> Lets see who comes up with the details of this order



Well, but work is to be performed outside Pakistan, so if it had to be a follow up order, PAF already has achieved the capability to integrate the systems on the aircraft, so 2 scenarios come to my mind;

1)Customer is not Pakistan,
2)Customer is Pakistan, BUT there is something new here that has not been in PAF inventory before hence no integration at Kamra.

"The industry’s nature is such that due to _circumstances concerning the product and customer_, further information about the customer will not be announced.

It is based on the Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with Saab’s airborne radar Erieye and a _*range of other sensors*_."​

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## nomi007

Definitely customer is Pak.
only PAF & RSAF operates saab 2000.
only PAF has large number of saab 2000 aircrafts.
RSAF operates only 2 saab 2000 aew

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## Scorpiooo

nomi007 said:


> Definitely customer is Pak.
> only PAF & RSAF operates saab 2000.
> only PAF has large number of saab 2000 aircrafts.
> RSAF operates only 2 saab 2000 aew


So these belong to Pakistan you think ?



Caprxl said:


> Well, but work is to be performed outside Pakistan, so if it had to be a follow up order, PAF already has achieved the capability to integrate the systems on the aircraft, so 2 scenarios come to my mind;
> 
> 1)Customer is not Pakistan,
> 2)Customer is Pakistan, BUT there is something new here that has not been in PAF inventory before hence no integration at Kamra.
> 
> "The industry’s nature is such that due to _circumstances concerning the product and customer_, further information about the customer will not be announced.
> 
> It is based on the Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with Saab’s airborne radar Erieye and a _*range of other sensors*_."​


What can be new sensors ?

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## Caprxl

Scorpiooo said:


> So these belong to Pakistan you think ?
> 
> 
> What can be new sensors ?



No idea brother, not my field , maybe ER version , who knows

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## Blacklight

Caprxl said:


> Well, but work is to be performed outside Pakistan, so if it had to be a follow up order, PAF already has achieved the capability to integrate the systems on the aircraft, so 2 scenarios come to my mind;
> 
> 1)Customer is not Pakistan,
> 2)Customer is Pakistan, BUT there is something new here that has not been in PAF inventory before hence no integration at Kamra.
> 
> "The industry’s nature is such that due to _circumstances concerning the product and customer_, further information about the customer will not be announced.
> 
> It is based on the Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with Saab’s airborne radar Erieye and a _*range of other sensors*_."​





Scorpiooo said:


> So these belong to Pakistan you think ?
> 
> 
> What can be new sensors ?


Customer is Pakistan.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> So these belong to Pakistan you think ?
> 
> 
> What can be new sensors ?


ELINT/ESM, SAR/GMTI and EO/IR.

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## Blacklight

nomi007 said:


> Definitely customer is Pak.
> only PAF & RSAF operates saab 2000.
> only PAF has large number of saab 2000 aircrafts.
> RSAF operates only 2 saab 2000 aew


Consider theirs ours as well IA, lets see who can point out why I am saying this. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ELINT/ESM, SAR/GMTI and EO/IR.


It has to be one or, some, or all of the above. What we would like to know is how many systems?

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> Consider theirs ours as well IA, lets see who can point out why I am saying this.
> 
> 
> It has to be one or, some, or all of the above. What we would like to know is how many systems?


i think we got jealous by global eye of UAE and decided to get our own toys

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## TheDarkKnight

RangeMaster said:


> Pakistan...???
> 
> 18 May 2020
> Saab has signed a contract and received an order for the Airborne Early Warning and Control solution Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C. The order value is 1.553 billion SEK. Deliveries will be made between 2020 and 2023.
> The industry’s nature is such that due to circumstances concerning the product and customer, further information about the customer will not be announced.
> Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C is a complete AEW&C system with multi-role and multi-mission capabilities for both military and civil needs.
> It is based on the Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with Saab’s airborne radar Erieye and a range of other sensors. The solution gives the user detailed situational awareness and can be used for tasks including border surveillance and search-and-rescue operations.
> Saab will carry out the work in Gothenburg, Järfälla, Linköping, Luleå and Arboga, Sweden.
> For further information, please contact:
> Saab Press Centre,
> Ann Wolgers, Press Officer
> +46 (0)734 180 018,
> presscentre@saabgroup.com
> www.saabgroup.com
> www.saabgroup.com/YouTube


Link to the news:
https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/news/2020-05/saab-receives-airborne-surveillance-order/

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## ziaulislam

Caprxl said:


> Well, but work is to be performed outside Pakistan, so if it had to be a follow up order, PAF already has achieved the capability to integrate the systems on the aircraft, so 2 scenarios come to my mind;
> 
> 1)Customer is not Pakistan,
> 2)Customer is Pakistan, BUT there is something new here that has not been in PAF inventory before hence no integration at Kamra.
> 
> "The industry’s nature is such that due to _circumstances concerning the product and customer_, further information about the customer will not be announced.
> 
> It is based on the Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with Saab’s airborne radar Erieye and a _*range of other sensors*_."​


Customer has to be pakistan..saab2000 is mentioning is a practical give away ..no other country will choose saab2000 platform ..it makes no sense to choose an out of production plan..
And PAF has been go picking any and every saab2000 it can see..

Both thailand and UAE operate saab340.
UAE Just purchased a upgrade for their saab340 and are going for global eye..so thailand is a possibility but saab340 is different from saab2000

I would imagine any new customer to go for bombodier

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## Akh1112

Blacklight said:


> Consider theirs ours as well IA, lets see who can point out why I am saying this.
> 
> 
> It has to be one or, some, or all of the above. What we would like to know is how many systems?




Janes is reporting that based off of the time frame it is for 2-3 systems

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## The Raven

Three years is a long time to deliver a single system, and the press release clearly states "deliveries", i.e. more than one. I can't see the PAF ordering any more Erieyes at the moment.


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## ziaulislam

The Raven said:


> Three years is a long time to deliver a single system, and the press release clearly states "deliveries", i.e. more than one. I can't see the PAF ordering any more Erieyes at the moment.


True but saab2000 doesnt make any sense either


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## Akh1112

ziaulislam said:


> True but saab2000 doesnt make any sense either



I think, its quite likely that it could be the saudi's, they fly 6 old E-3s


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## mingle

It's further says border surveillance along SAR I feel for Navy too


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## Caprxl

Blacklight said:


> Consider theirs ours as well IA, lets see who can point out why I am saying this.



RSAF thinking of replacing their only 2 saab 2000 aew?



Blacklight said:


> It has to be one or, some, or all of the above. What we would like to know is how many systems?



2-3 , depending on past deals, But again, if they were Saab Erieye, why integrate outside Pakistan?

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## Blacklight

Caprxl said:


> 2-3 , depending on past deals, But again, if they were Saab Erieye, why integrate outside Pakistan?


They will be integrated in Pakistan.

Brother, last time I said something on the Erieye, clueless people got upset. This time I'm double minded.



Caprxl said:


> RSAF thinking of replacing their only 2 saab 2000 aew?



No nothing like that, we have very good relations with them, PAF crew has trained the Saudis on it.

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## Caprxl

Blacklight said:


> They will be integrated in Pakistan.
> 
> Brother, last time I said something on the Erieye, clueless people got upset. This time I'm double minded.



That is a welcome news, so it looks like we are increasing our fleet. It seems PAF has listened to what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has been saying past few months.

Let those Clueless remain as such. They do not have the stomach or the eye that can handle such stuff. For them everything should be presented in Black & White.



Blacklight said:


> No nothing like that, we have very good relations with them, PAF crew has trained the Saudis on it.



Aww, my bad,
well glad to know

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> They will be integrated in Pakistan.
> 
> Brother, last time I said something on the Erieye, clueless people got upset. This time I'm double minded.
> 
> 
> 
> No nothing like that, we have very good relations with them, PAF crew has trained the Saudis on it.


The 160m figure doesnt add up.
There are more than 3 ER systems, unlike what Janes said.
there could be more and then there is the EO/IR's as well which is yet to be confirmed officially

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## mingle

Caprxl said:


> That is a welcome news, so it looks like we are increasing our fleet. It seems PAF has listened to what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has been saying past few months.
> 
> Let those Clueless remain as such. They do not have the stomach or the eye that can handle such stuff. For them everything should be presented in Black & White.
> 
> 
> 
> Aww, my bad,
> well glad to know


What bilal was saying? I may missed that?


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## Blacklight

ali_raza said:


> The 160m figure doesnt add up.
> There are more than 3 ER systems, unlike what Janes said.
> there could be more and then there is the EO/IR's as well which is yet to be confirmed officially


You are very close.

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> You are very close.


glad u saw it that way 
took alote of digging lol

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## Caprxl

mingle said:


> What bilal was saying? I may missed that?



I cant find that thread at the moment but on multiple occasions he has been saying to Increase our AIR Surveillance assets that includes AEW&Cs & Electronic Attack ones like DA 20s instead of procuring more Vipers or inducting any new 4 / 4.5 generation Aircraft, we should invest more in EA aircraft by going for more Erieye / ER & DA 20s.



ali_raza said:


> there is the EO/IR's



Yes, those extra _range of other sensors._

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## mingle

Caprxl said:


> I cant find that thread at the moment but on multiple occasions he has been saying to Increase our AIR Surveillance assets that includes AEW&Cs & Electronic Attack ones like DA 20s instead of procuring more Vipers or inducting any new 4 / 4.5 generation Aircraft, we should invest more in EA aircraft by going for more Erieye / ER & DA 20s.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, those extra _range of other sensors._


But we need strike platforms too along surveillance things we missing armed drones system like turkey has I hope Govt working on it we need whole network in KPK and Blochistan.

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## The Raven

Saab has stated that the work will be carried out in Sweden, and given prior delivery times of around 3 years, it is likely to be 3 systems. If it is the PAF, it would be a departure of integrating the radar and sub-systems locally. Alternatively, the RSAF may be in need of further systems to augment its fleet, particularly in light of the ongoing conflict in Yemen and the need for SAR/EO equipped surveillance aircraft. It also doesn't rule out the possibility of a new customer for the type, not everyone can afford the current GlobalEye version, and the demonstration of the system's performance by the PAF last year was a boon for the type and may have persuaded other small tactical orientated air forces to acquire the type.

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## FuturePAF

Any indication these new Aircraft are the Globaleye standard or just the Erieye?


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## The Raven

FuturePAF said:


> Any indication these new Aircraft are the Globaleye standard or just the Erieye?



There's no indication that the radar is the ER version, as on the GlobalEye.

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## ziaulislam

TheDarkKnight said:


> Link to the news:
> https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/news/2020-05/saab-receives-airborne-surveillance-order/


Is it possible that earlier we received just a single order and this is follow on to get 3 more?


Akh1112 said:


> I think, its quite likely that it could be the saudi's, they fly 6 old E-3s


But why would they for saab2000..instead of bombadier



The Raven said:


> Saab has stated that the work will be carried out in Sweden, and given prior delivery times of around 3 years, it is likely to be 3 systems. If it is the PAF, it would be a departure of integrating the radar and sub-systems locally. Alternatively, the RSAF may be in need of further systems to augment its fleet, particularly in light of the ongoing conflict in Yemen and the need for SAR/EO equipped surveillance aircraft. It also doesn't rule out the possibility of a new customer for the type, not everyone can afford the current GlobalEye version, and the demonstration of the system's performance by the PAF last year was a boon for the type and may have persuaded other small tactical orientated air forces to acquire the type.


Than it is probably a new customer ...i doubt existing saab340 customers will opt for it.

Very few airforces exist that need an AWEC but cannot afford top of the line equipment ..

Infact i cant think of any lol


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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> t has to be one or, some, or all of the above. What we would like to know is how many systems?


I was hoping for ER version

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## ziaulislam

Akh1112 said:


> I think, its quite likely that it could be the saudi's, they fly 6 old E-3s


Actually you are right..it is probably saudi arabi
I didnt know they operated saab2000 variant


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## Yasser76

This is certainly Pakistan. Only Saudi and Pak operate the SAAB 2000. Saudis have trouble manning their current fleet of E-3s and many think purchased their Erieyes for Pakistan anyway. After induction ceremony no one has seen Saudi Erieye anywhere, not even when they during their air shows and parades, My guess is Erieye was so effective during Swift Retort that PAF want to top up their current 6/7 systems to maybe 9/10. PAF also only ones to have quite a few spare SAAB 2000s flying as transport aircraft. I guess these were purchased to deliberately be converted to Erieye once funding became available. I think current PAF fleet is 6/7 Erieye and 4 standard SAAB 2000 transports. This expansion also syncs in with news that 2nd PAF Erieye Sqd will be made operational, so we get 5 planes per Sqd. I think this will be one unit for North and one for South. Also indicates performance of Chinese ZDK has not been that good

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## Pakistani Fighter

Yasser76 said:


> Also indicates performance of Chinese ZDK has not been that good


They are used in Maritime surveillance

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## SD 10

Yasser76 said:


> Also indicates performance of Chinese ZDK has not been that good


you should have check the usage of zdk in pakistan before making such claims.......

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## Yasser76

SD 10 said:


> you should have check the usage of zdk in pakistan before making such claims.......



No one can really "check the usage" in Pakistan, we can only go by what news is available. Do you have usage stats of ZDK compared to Erieye in PAF service? I doubt it. Simple truth is PAF seems to love Erieye, this is our thurd order for the system and will create a fleet of 10. ZDK has been in service just as long and Chinese can give us more on very good terms of credit but we have not ordered even a single one. That speaks enough.

My guess with 10 Erieyes we want complete coverage of Pakistan. So that begs the question what is ZDK useful for? My guess is it will be committed just to support Navy over the sea.



Pakistani Fighter said:


> They are used in Maritime surveillance



Yes, in which case it will essentially be Erieyes that support 90% of PAF fighter operations

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## Reichmarshal

After kamra attack and the subsequent in house program to recover the damaged erieyes has given our engineers an insight into the a.c. which is second to non.
Now we know every inch of the system n subsystem of the a.c.. A capability that only the manufacturer of the a.c. it's it's component makers have.
So PAF is utilizing this to the fullest. It dosent make karakarum eagle any less capable.

As Saab has stoped production of the Saab 2000 PAF needs to buy the manufacturing rights from Saab like it did for Saab safari

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## mingle

Also it's Pak reason Sweden put ban on weapons sale to Saudia due Yemen.

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## Blacklight

Pakistani Fighter said:


> I was hoping for ER version


You wont be dissapointed IA 



ali_raza said:


> The 160m figure doesnt add up.


It is not supposed tp, part of PAF's strategy to keep people guessing



ali_raza said:


> There are more than 3 ER systems, unlike what Janes said.


Yes Sir, absolutely!



ali_raza said:


> there could be more and then there is the EO/IR's as well which is yet to be confirmed officially


EO/IR's and the usual stuff

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> You wont be dissapointed IA


InshALLAH

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## Yasser76

Reichmarshal said:


> After kamra attack and the subsequent in house program to recover the damaged erieyes has given our engineers an insight into the a.c. which is second to non.
> Now we know every inch of the system n subsystem of the a.c.. A capability that only the manufacturer of the a.c. it's it's component makers have.
> So PAF is utilizing this to the fullest. It dosent make karakarum eagle any less capable.
> 
> As Saab has stoped production of the Saab 2000 PAF needs to buy the manufacturing rights from Saab like it did for Saab safari



Not really, plenty of SAAB 2000 airframes around the world we can buy and which PAF has been quietly buying up so that we can convert ourselves.

Does beg the question that 10 Erieyes are more then enough so we will not require many more, maybe 1-2 over next 20 years for attrition. 

10 Erieyes plus 4 ZDKs gives Pakistan one of the largest AEW fleets in the world, to put it in perspective 

NATO = 14 E-3s
Saudi = 5 E-3s + 2 Erieyes
UK = 5 E-7s
USAF = 31 E-3s
Russia = 6 A-50
India = 3 Phalcons + 2 NETA (both development aircraft)
China = 5 KJ-2000 + 11 KJ-200 + 12 KJ-500

Essentially we have the 3rd largest AEW force in the world.

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## Pakistani Fighter

@Blacklight at how much distance does Erieye ER can track Rafale?

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## Yasser76

Pakistani Fighter said:


> @Blacklight at how much distance does Erieye ER can track Rafale?



Unsure anyone knows for certain, probably very classified true capability for both platforms

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> No one can really "check the usage" in Pakistan, we can only go by what news is available. Do you have usage stats of ZDK compared to Erieye in PAF service? I doubt it. Simple truth is PAF seems to love Erieye, this is our thurd order for the system and will create a fleet of 10. ZDK has been in service just as long and Chinese can give us more on very good terms of credit but we have not ordered even a single one. That speaks enough.
> 
> My guess with 10 Erieyes we want complete coverage of Pakistan. So that begs the question what is ZDK useful for? My guess is it will be committed just to support Navy over the sea.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in which case it will essentially be Erieyes that support 90% of PAF fighter operations


The PN had originally wanted 3 Hawkeye-2000s onboard P-3Bs, so it's worth seeing if the PAF simply transfers the ZDK03s to the Navy in 2-3 years. This will be an interesting offshoot since the PN is also building-up its aviation wing with new LRMPAs and MALE UAVs. It's also adding a medium-range air defence element too, so over-the-horizon situational awareness will be key -- an AEW&C will fit really well.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN had originally wanted 3 Hawkeye-2000s onboard P-3Bs, so it's worth seeing if the PAF simply transfers the ZDK03s to the Navy in 2-3 years.


Why would it? Its PAF which has to deal with Aerial threats in sea too. Navy doesn't operate Fighter Jets


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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN had originally wanted 3 Hawkeye-2000s onboard P-3Bs, so it's worth seeing if the PAF simply transfers the ZDK03s to the Navy in 2-3 years.



Yes, I think with Chinese Frigates and Subs Navy may be able to better make use of ZDK system

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## MIRauf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN had originally wanted 3 Hawkeye-2000s onboard P-3Bs, so it's worth seeing if the PAF simply transfers the ZDK03s to the Navy in 2-3 years. This will be an interesting offshoot since the PN is also building-up its aviation wing with new LRMPAs and MALE UAVs. It's also adding a medium-range air defence element too, so over-the-horizon situational awareness will be key -- an AEW&C will fit really well.



That would be a welcome move for the PN, not sure how the Upgrade to the KJ-500 standard is going for ZDKs. One was suppose to be there for upgrade, last I read a while back.

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## HRK

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Why would it?


Enemy Aerial assets would pose no threat to PN Naval assets specially surface fleet .... ???

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## rAli

Yasser76 said:


> Not really, plenty of SAAB 2000 airframes around the world we can buy and which PAF has been quietly buying up so that we can convert ourselves.
> 
> Does beg the question that 10 Erieyes are more then enough so we will not require many more, maybe 1-2 over next 20 years for attrition.
> 
> 10 Erieyes plus 4 ZDKs gives Pakistan one of the largest AEW fleets in the world, to put it in perspective
> 
> NATO = 14 E-3s
> Saudi = 5 E-3s + 2 Erieyes
> UK = 5 E-7s
> USAF = 31 E-3s
> Russia = 6 A-50
> India = 3 Phalcons + 2 NETA (both development aircraft)
> China = 5 KJ-2000 + 11 KJ-200 + 12 KJ-500
> 
> Essentially we have the 3rd largest AEW force in the world.



I think there is some behind the scene stuff going on here. Besides advance warning and EW, can these systems help in other ways?

Can Erieye guide BVRAAM? 

With PAF being much smaller force, PAF may be looking into redundancies with having multiple birds in the air at any given time. This purchase would also be due to current threat analysis from IAF and lessons learned from last year.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Why would it? Its PAF which has to deal with Aerial threats in sea too. Navy doesn't operate Fighter Jets


AEW&C isn't limited to just managing fighter operations. 

It's overall benefit is to provide situational awareness to all networked assets, be it on the ground, in the air, or at sea. The biggest gain is over-the-horizon radar coverage: the PN can use that to track enemy ships and aircraft operating in the radar blind spots of its own ships. 

It can use the targeting data to coordinate anti-ship ops with LRMPAs and Sea Kings, and -- if it gets new AAW tech -- get the AEW&C to help feed mid-course guidance info to SAMs without solely relying on the ship's radar.

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## Bossman

Erieyes are better in dealing with clutter compared to ZDKs. Hence, Erieyes were always meant to operate in the north and ZDKs in the South over the coast line. It works very closely with PN P3Cs and ATRs to provides a comprehensive sub-surface, surface and aerial views.

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## Imran Khan

Bossman said:


> Erieyes are better in dealing with clutter compared to ZDKs. Hence, Erieyes were always meant to operate in the north and ZDKs in the South over the coast line. It works very closely with PN P3Cs and ATRs to provides a comprehensive sub-surface, surface and aerial views.


its because ZDK is AESA radar sir .


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## Akh1112

ziaulislam said:


> Is it possible that earlier we received just a single order and this is follow on to get 3 more?
> 
> But why would they for saab2000..instead of bombadier
> 
> 
> Than it is probably a new customer ...i doubt existing saab340 customers will opt for it.
> 
> Very few airforces exist that need an AWEC but cannot afford top of the line equipment ..
> 
> Infact i cant think of any lol



The Saudis use the Saab2k variant



ziaulislam said:


> Actually you are right..it is probably saudi arabi
> I didnt know they operated saab2000 variant


 
no problem 



Imran Khan said:


> its because ZDK is AESA radar sir .




we dont actually know, there is nothing to suggest either or



Pakistani Fighter said:


> Why would it? Its PAF which has to deal with Aerial threats in sea too. Navy doesn't operate Fighter Jets




The Navy does operate Mirages for ASh roles


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## Pakistani Fighter

HRK said:


> Enemy Aerial assets would pose no threat to PN Naval assets specially surface fleet .... ???


But how better they would be intercepted? By PAF Fighters having 100km BVRs or Ships with Type 054A/Ps having 70km max considering it has HQ16B version? Air Launched Anti Ship Missiles have larger range than 70km



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> over-the-horizon radar coverage


Sea Spray 7300E doesn't gives over-the-horizon coverage?


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## Yasser76

Bossman said:


> Erieyes are better in dealing with clutter compared to ZDKs. Hence, Erieyes were always meant to operate in the north and ZDKs in the South over the coast line. It works very closely with PN P3Cs and ATRs to provides a comprehensive sub-surface, surface and aerial views.




How do the ZDKs data link with the P-3Cs and ATRs? Western system manufacturers would never allow this


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## Akh1112

Pakistani Fighter said:


> But how better they would be intercepted? By PAF Fighters having 100km BVRs or Ships with Type 054A/Ps having 70km max considering it has HQ16B version? Air Launched Anti Ship Missiles have larger range than 70km
> 
> 
> Sea Spray 7300E doesn't gives over-the-horizon coverage?





Sure but situational awareness is key. While the HQ-16 may not be the LONGEST ranged system, it is still sufficient for airborne threats. I am sure the ZDK's can also track AShM's and also other threats like ships.

In terms of the Seaspray 7300E, i cant find anything to say that it offers OTH coverage, i have checked Leonardo's brochure.



Yasser76 said:


> How do the ZDKs data link with the P-3Cs and ATRs? Western system manufacturers would never allow this




Im pretty sure Pakistan uses a proprietary datalink standard, the Link-17, its a domestic standard

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## Dazzler

Yasser76 said:


> No one can really "check the usage" in Pakistan, we can only go by what news is available. Do you have usage stats of ZDK compared to Erieye in PAF service? I doubt it. Simple truth is PAF seems to love Erieye, this is our thurd order for the system and will create a fleet of 10. ZDK has been in service just as long and Chinese can give us more on very good terms of credit but we have not ordered even a single one. That speaks enough.
> 
> My guess with 10 Erieyes we want complete coverage of Pakistan. So that begs the question what is ZDK useful for? My guess is it will be committed just to support Navy over the sea.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in which case it will essentially be Erieyes that support 90% of PAF fighter operations








This should end conspiracy theories related to the ZDK. Not to mention, I see it doing multiple sorties almost daily. A not-so-good or inefficient system would not be used that way. It had its share of problems early on but most were addressed.

PAF keeps a watch using ZDKs on the coast/ south zone.

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## Yasser76

Dazzler said:


> This should end conspiracy theories related to the ZDK. Not to mention, I see it doing multiple sorties almost daily. A not-so-good or inefficient system would not be used that way. It had its share of problems early on but most were addressed.
> 
> PAF keeps a watch using ZDKs on the coast/ south zone.



You need to calm down, no one is saying ZDK is useless, just that PAF may prefer the Erieye hence why it is ordering more. Could be for many reasons. It's like saying PAF prefers buying more F-16s then JF-17s. Does not imply JF-17 is useless just that F-16 has more capability. 

Personally I think Erieye helped give such a bloody nose on Feb 27th and easily integrates with PAF Western systems, also maybe Swedes are still ahead of China in AESA.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Akh1112 said:


> ure but situational awareness is key. While the HQ-16 may not be the LONGEST ranged system, it is still sufficient for airborne threats. I am sure the ZDK's can also track AShM's and also other threats like ships.


You will have only 4 Type 054A/Ps. And its not confirmed if they would be equipped with HQ16A or B Version



Dazzler said:


> This should end conspiracy theories related to the ZDK. Not to mention, I see it doing multiple sorties almost daily. A not-so-good or inefficient system would not be used that way. It had its share of problems early on but most were addressed.
> 
> PAF keeps a watch using ZDKs on the coast/ south zone.


Are they AESA?


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## Akh1112

Pakistani Fighter said:


> You will have only 4 Type 054A/Ps. And its not confirmed if they would be equipped with HQ16A or B Version
> 
> 
> Are they AESA?




Irrelevant since we would have 8 Anti Air Warfare capable frigates in the form of the Milgem's and the 054's. Im also pretty sure they will be using the HQ-16B.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Akh1112 said:


> Milgem


They will confirm use Chinese SAMs?


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## Dazzler

Yasser76 said:


> You need to calm down, no one is saying ZDK is useless, just that PAF may prefer the Erieye hence why it is ordering more. Could be for many reasons. It's like saying PAF prefers buying more F-16s then JF-17s. Does not imply JF-17 is useless just that F-16 has more capability.
> 
> Personally I think Erieye helped give such a bloody nose on Feb 27th and easily integrates with PAF Western systems, also maybe Swedes are still ahead of China in AESA.



Reporting for duty...








Pakistani Fighter said:


> You will have only 4 Type 054A/Ps. And its not confirmed if they would be equipped with HQ16A or B Version
> 
> 
> Are they AESA?



It is an E-Scan radar that rotates mechanically. The upgraded ones are to have KLC-7 radar with a much higher T/R count, SATCOM and other goodies. The same radar will be used on Chinese naval AW&CS aircraft. 

ZDK's current radar








Upgraded ZDK is to house this

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## Pakistani Fighter

Dazzler said:


> Upgraded ZDK is to house this


I hope they do. Whats the disadvantage it would have over AESA?


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## Akh1112

Pakistani Fighter said:


> They will confirm use Chinese SAMs?




Yes.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistani Fighter said:


> But how better they would be intercepted? By PAF Fighters having 100km BVRs or Ships with Type 054A/Ps having 70km max considering it has HQ16B version? Air Launched Anti Ship Missiles have larger range than 70km
> 
> 
> Sea Spray 7300E doesn't gives over-the-horizon coverage?


Sea Spray 7300E likely offers over-the-horizon coverage, but would it offer as much range as the ZDK03? Moreover, by data-linking to an AEW&C, the LRMPAs and Sea Kings can also switch-off their radars (reduce exposure to Indian EW). As for SAMs, they're the first line of defence for the Type 054A/P and MILGEM, the sooner the ships are aware of an incoming missile threat the better.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> *they're the first line of defence* for the Type 054A/P and MILGEM, the sooner the ships are aware of an incoming missile threat the better.


So would you feel comfortable for them facing aerial targets or would you let your Fighters with BVRs to intercept the enemy jets carrying AShMs before they are launched towards your Ships?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistani Fighter said:


> So would you feel comfortable for them facing aerial targets or would you let your Fighters with BVRs to intercept the enemy jets carrying AShMs before they are launched towards your Ships?


I never said I want ships with SAMs instead of fighters.

I said that I want AEW&C support for ships so that the ships can identify threats as early as possible, and work to counter them earlier. This is independent of whether the PAF will send fighters with BVR or not (which it will), but it doesn't take away from the need of equipping ship air defences to act faster and more effectively.

The ship's air defence is its first line of defence, it's something it can control right at the moment it picks up a threat. So, the better that ship can do that job, the better it'll be for the PN, PAF, etc.

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## Akh1112

So, upon some research, it looks like Pakistan had purchased 3 Baseline SAAB 2000's back in 2018, this aligns with the order being for 3 ish systems too, especially considering that the cost for our previous 3 systems was very similar. If this is actually for us, this is big news.

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## Dil Pakistan



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## ziaulislam

Still seems we have enough AWECs but are some what short on fighters now..
Erieye system us perfect for f16s and aim120 but what about jf17 & sd 10..
I doubt sd10 can talk to erieye

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## syed_yusuf

Dil Pakistan said:


>


are these in addition to 6 AEW in PAF?

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## ARMalik

ziaulislam said:


> Still seems we have enough AWECs but are some what short on fighters now..
> Erieye system us perfect for f16s and aim120 but what about jf17 & sd 10..
> I doubt sd10 can talk to erieye



I think there is urgent need for the Western borders; they are looking for 24x7 , 360 degree Surveillance on all borders. 

As for JF-17/SD-10, it very easy to do using *Link-17 *since this is simply a communication protocol. Just as the Erieye's software is programmed to recognize *Link-16 *communication protocol at the GUI, it can be every easy programmed to recognise Link-17 communication protocol.

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> Still seems we have enough AWECs but are some what short on fighters now..
> Erieye system us perfect for f16s and aim120 but what about jf17 & sd 10..
> I doubt sd10 can talk to erieye


This also means something else too having huge fleet of Erieye? PAF will induct more F16s.



syed_yusuf said:


> are these in addition to 6 AEW in PAF?


Yes I believe PAF would have around 9 Masha Allah

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## Pakistani Fighter

ziaulislam said:


> Still seems we have enough AWECs but are some what short on fighters now..
> Erieye system us perfect for f16s and aim120 but what about jf17 & sd 10..
> I doubt sd10 can talk to erieye


Even AIM120 cannot talk to Erieye

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## Yasser76

ziaulislam said:


> Still seems we have enough AWECs but are some what short on fighters now..
> Erieye system us perfect for f16s and aim120 but what about jf17 & sd 10..
> I doubt sd10 can talk to erieye




Yes, you are right, we are in an enviable position of having excellent C3 and networking capability via a very large AWECS fleet but need more fighters. As I said in other Sniper Pod thread, if US willing to sell us brand new Sniper pods and Afghan peace talks progressing we should be able to get US nod to buy used F-16s from Europe

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## Dil Pakistan

syed_yusuf said:


> are these in addition to 6 AEW in PAF?



Sir! I only copied and pasted YouTube .... I got excited......this guy is pretty good.

The way he has described, yes! these are in addition.


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## Zarvan

If new order which SAAB has gotten is only of radar system and not the entire plane. Than it's most likely us other wise it's not us.


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## Akh1112

ziaulislam said:


> Still seems we have enough AWECs but are some what short on fighters now..
> Erieye system us perfect for f16s and aim120 but what about jf17 & sd 10..
> I doubt sd10 can talk to erieye



The Erieye is able to datalink to ALL of our systems. They are highly flexible and can operate whatever standard is requested by the customer



mingle said:


> This also means something else too having huge fleet of Erieye? PAF will induct more F16s.
> 
> 
> Yes I believe PAF would have around 9 Masha Allah




Nope, it does not mean we will get more F-16's, it just means we are happy with their performance and find them sufficient for our needs. They datalink with the Mirages and JF-17's too.



Yasser76 said:


> Yes, you are right, we are in an enviable position of having excellent C3 and networking capability via a very large AWECS fleet but need more fighters. As I said in other Sniper Pod thread, if US willing to sell us brand new Sniper pods and Afghan peace talks progressing we should be able to get US nod to buy used F-16s from Europe



But sniper pods arent exactly an offensive asset, or even an asset that would raise objection from India. Its not that the US refuses to sell us anything, its more that they want us to pay for it. The T129's are stuck because of Turkey, the AH1Z's are stuck because we dont want to pay the full price for them. We can buy more new F-16's, just at a price of $120m each. Selling us new aircraft would raise major red flags for India, considering the US is relatively pro India atm, it would be highly unlikely they want to upset them. Just look, India has been offered the Patriot, THAAD, SLAMRAAM's, F-15, F/A-18, a new variant of the F-16 etc, India is favored by the US due to its immense market size


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## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> The Erieye is able to datalink to ALL of our systems. They are highly flexible and can operate whatever standard is requested by the customer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, it does not mean we will get more F-16's, it just means we are happy with their performance and find them sufficient for our needs. They datalink with the Mirages and JF-17's too.
> 
> 
> 
> But sniper pods arent exactly an offensive asset, or even an asset that would raise objection from India. Its not that the US refuses to sell us anything, its more that they want us to pay for it. The T129's are stuck because of Turkey, the AH1Z's are stuck because we dont want to pay the full price for them. We can buy more new F-16's, just at a price of $120m each. Selling us new aircraft would raise major red flags for India, considering the US is relatively pro India atm, it would be highly unlikely they want to upset them. Just look, India has been offered the Patriot, THAAD, SLAMRAAM's, F-15, F/A-18, a new variant of the F-16 etc, India is favored by the US due to its immense market size



I think we are agreeing with each other here. Yes, US will provide Pak as long as we have $. Sniper is a very offensive asset, each Sniper pod massively increases the strike ability of each F-16 it is placed on. It's the most accurate targeting system in the world. It's range is 50% better then the next best pod. Also acts as an ISR tool. Essentially you could fly an F-16 over Lahore and with razor sharp definition relay what people are up to within a military base in Amritsar, then lob a JDAM through the building of that base without leaving Lahore.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Yasser76 said:


> I think we are agreeing with each other here. Yes, US will provide Pak as long as we have $. Sniper is a very offensive asset, each Sniper pod massively increases the strike ability of each F-16 it is placed on. It's the most accurate targeting system in the world. It's range is 50% better then the next best pod. Also acts as an ISR tool. Essentially you could fly an F-16 over Lahore and with razor sharp definition relay what people are up to within a military base in Amritsar, then lob a JDAM through the building of that base without leaving Lahore.


Can a pod be used for BVR?


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## Yasser76

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Can a pod be used for BVR?



Not really but can be used to identify and engage to say up to 20-30 miles away

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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> I think we are agreeing with each other here. Yes, US will provide Pak as long as we have $. Sniper is a very offensive asset, each Sniper pod massively increases the strike ability of each F-16 it is placed on. It's the most accurate targeting system in the world. It's range is 50% better then the next best pod. Also acts as an ISR tool. Essentially you could fly an F-16 over Lahore and with razor sharp definition relay what people are up to within a military base in Amritsar, then lob a JDAM through the building of that base without leaving Lahore.




Yes, but no? The US would be selling them with the justification of counter terrorism and whatnot, while they can be used in an offensive role, that would not be the intention when being sold to us


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## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> Yes, but no? The US would be selling them with the justification of counter terrorism and whatnot, while they can be used in an offensive role, that would not be the intention when being sold to us



US made it clear some weapons were for defence of Pakistan. P-3Cs, Harpoons and AMRAAMs were not used to hit Taliban....

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## Viper27

Yasser76 said:


> I think we are agreeing with each other here. Yes, US will provide Pak as long as we have $. Sniper is a very offensive asset, each Sniper pod massively increases the strike ability of each F-16 it is placed on. It's the most accurate targeting system in the world. It's range is 50% better then the next best pod. Also acts as an ISR tool. Essentially you could fly an F-16 over Lahore and with razor sharp definition relay what people are up to within a military base in Amritsar, then lob a JDAM through the building of that base without leaving Lahore.



I think JDAM doesn't have that much range.


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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> Also it's Pak reason Sweden put ban on weapons sale to Saudia due Yemen.


Swedes sold to nazis..ban is for show and when something is to sell they will sell to devil itself..you think india has good record ..dont be naive


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## mikaal hassan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I never said I want ships with SAMs instead of fighters.
> 
> I said that I want AEW&C support for ships so that the ships can identify threats as early as possible, and work to counter them earlier. This is independent of whether the PAF will send fighters with BVR or not (which it will), but it doesn't take away from the need of equipping ship air defences to act faster and more effectively.
> 
> The ship's air defence is its first line of defence, it's something it can control right at the moment it picks up a threat. So, the better that ship can do that job, the better it'll be for the PN, PAF, etc.


 
SIR i have a question for you why we cant have a single type of SURVEILLANCE plane for both the PAF and PN. Unless there is not a perfect plane made for both Air ans Sea SURVEILLANCE. thank you


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## ziaulislam

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Why would it? Its PAF which has to deal with Aerial threats in sea too. Navy doesn't operate Fighter Jets


PN should have its own airarm..unless the co ordiantion between PAF & PN is perfect

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> Swedes sold to nazis..ban is for show and when something is to sell they will sell to devil itself..you think india has good record ..dont be naive


Well india is bombing in Yemen


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## aliyusuf

mingle said:


> Well india is bombing in Yemen


This is news to me. Can you share some more info on this? Some link?

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## mingle

aliyusuf said:


> This is news to me. Can you share some more info on this? Some link?


You took wrong Saudi got issue due to Yemen india has no such issue that what I meant?

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## aliyusuf

mingle said:


> You took wrong Saudi got issue due to Yemen india has no such issue that what I meant?


Got it.

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## airomerix



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## Falcon26

Akh1112 said:


> The Erieye is able to datalink to ALL of our systems. They are highly flexible and can operate whatever standard is requested by the customer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, it does not mean we will get more F-16's, it just means we are happy with their performance and find them sufficient for our needs. They datalink with the Mirages and JF-17's too.
> 
> 
> 
> But sniper pods arent exactly an offensive asset, or even an asset that would raise objection from India. Its not that the US refuses to sell us anything, its more that they want us to pay for it. The T129's are stuck because of Turkey, the AH1Z's are stuck because we dont want to pay the full price for them. We can buy more new F-16's, just at a price of $120m each. Selling us new aircraft would raise major red flags for India, considering the US is relatively pro India atm, it would be highly unlikely they want to upset them. Just look, India has been offered the Patriot, THAAD, SLAMRAAM's, F-15, F/A-18, a new variant of the F-16 etc, India is favored by the US due to its immense market size



You’re contradicting yourself. The F-16 BLK 52s were sold despite Indian protestation. As were the AH1Z helicopters. As you have mentioned, they didn’t come due to financing issues. The Pakistanis wanted to pay them through FMS & CFC. The Obama/Trump didn’t think Pakistan was doing enough to deserve those funds. India got its goods because it paid for them. 

Folks need to stop exaggerating India’s influence when it comes to Pakistan. Yes, India was able to blackmail European manufacturers with the phantom MMRCA competition, but it was never able to dictate terms. Pakistan still got the Saab Erieyes despite Indian blackmail and in the end the Indians canceled the whole thing and went with their 50-year pizza project Tejas. Members on this forum habitually inflate India’s influence with US arms manufacturers which is becoming annoying, to say the least. The Americans are entirely capable of selling weapons to both parties, Arabs/Israelis, Turkey/Greece, India/Pakistan etc etc.

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## ali_raza

airomerix said:


> View attachment 634216


er!?


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## GriffinsRule

airomerix said:


> View attachment 634216


You left off the serial # on the tail =P

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## Safriz

airomerix said:


> View attachment 634216


In 1994 when there was no internet in Pakistan, I wanted airplane photos and obviously could not Google it as there was no Google.
I went to the library and found addresses of two aircraft manufacturers, SAAB and Dassault .
Then from my little town in northern Pakistan I wrote letters to Saab in Sweden and Dassault in France , asking them for their airplane pictures and that I don't have any other way of getting these pics in Pakistan.
Few months later two large packages arrived at my house on the bicycle of our postman "cha-cha". It was unexpected as I thought the airplane companies won't bother and bin my letter.
Inside were posters of saab-2000 and many more planes.
My rooms walls had those pics for the next 10 years.
That feeling of joy always comes back to me whenever I see a saab-2000.

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## Akh1112

Falcon26 said:


> You’re contradicting yourself. The F-16 BLK 52s were sold despite Indian protestation. As were the AH1Z helicopters. As you have mentioned, they didn’t come due to financing issues. The Pakistanis wanted to pay them through FMS & CFC. The Obama/Trump didn’t think Pakistan was doing enough to deserve those funds. India got its goods because it paid for them.
> 
> Folks need to stop exaggerating India’s influence when it comes to Pakistan. Yes, India was able to blackmail European manufacturers with the phantom MMRCA competition, but it was never able to dictate terms. Pakistan still got the Saab Erieyes despite Indian blackmail and in the end the Indians canceled the whole thing and went with their 50-year pizza project Tejas. Members on this forum habitually inflate India’s influence with US arms manufacturers which is becoming annoying, to say the least. The Americans are entirely capable of selling weapons to both parties, Arabs/Israelis, Turkey/Greece, India/Pakistan etc etc.




I dont think i contradicted myself, if i did, i apologize. Let me break down what i meant.

*"You’re contradicting yourself. The F-16 BLK 52s were sold despite Indian protestation. As were the AH1Z helicopters. As you have mentioned, they didn’t come due to financing issues. The Pakistanis wanted to pay them through FMS & CFC. The Obama/Trump didn’t think Pakistan was doing enough to deserve those funds. India got its goods because it paid for them."*

So, for the Block 52's, this was at a time where the US actually needed us, when Indian protests were brushed off and India wasn't a target market for US arms. In terms of the AH-1Z's, sure, but they're a valuable COIN asset and the US recognizes this, while yes, they may be used offensively, their primary role would be COIN, something the US wants us to proactively undertake. In terms of the financing issues part, what i meant by "not wanting to pay for them" was in reference to paying the full price, since CSF and FMF subsidizes part of the cost of acquisition. That is what i meant in relation to that. 

*"The Obama/Trump didn’t think Pakistan was doing enough to deserve those funds. India got its goods because it paid for them."*

Sure, that's why we wont be getting any new toys from the US, they don't believe we deserve the funding and they find us to be more responsive without said funding, Trump had said something along those lines. I don't see CSF/FMF being resumed for a long, long time.

*"Folks need to stop exaggerating India’s influence when it comes to Pakistan. Yes, India was able to blackmail European manufacturers with the phantom MMRCA competition, but it was never able to dictate terms."*

If this was maybe 5 or 10 years ago, id agree its an exaggeration, however, its simply fact that we will need to accept that the world is leaning more towards India now, its natural, everyone chases profits and sales, the fact is, India can offer more lucrative contracts than we can, unless its smaller purchases such as the MI-35's, i don't see any significant arms transfers to Pakistan in the near future from anywhere besides some of Europe, China of course and Turkey. The UK literally has India on a list of "core markets for arm transfers", to think that others wont follow suit is absurd. Heck, India had LockMart by the bal*'s when they had proposed the F-21 in where they said 'we will not sell the aircraft to anyone else if selected by India, showing our commitment to our ties with India' (paraphrased).

*"Pakistan still got the Saab Erieyes despite Indian blackmail"*

Cant comment on India's objections to the Erieye sales since i am not aware of them.

*"in the end the Indians canceled the whole thing and went with their 50-year pizza project Tejas."*

While we do like to poke fun at the Tejas for its awful development time and being far, far behind the JF-17 in terms of deployments and sales, it is still a fine aircraft and has massive growth potential like the JF-17, an AESA equipped Tejas will be a worthy opponent, its just a matter of when and what we have in our arsenal to take it on. At the current rate however, by the time the IAF actually inducts an advanced Tejas variant, we more than likely will be fielding a few squadrons of FGFA's.

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## ali_raza

Safriz said:


> In 1994 when there was no internet in Pakistan, I wanted airplane photos and obviously could not Google it as there was no Google.
> I went to the library and found addresses of two aircraft manufacturers, SAAB and Dassault .
> Then from my little town in northern Pakistan I wrote letters to Saab in Sweden and Dassault in France , asking them for their airplane pictures and that I don't have any other way of getting these pics in Pakistan.
> Few months later two large packages arrived at my house on the bicycle of our postman "cha-cha". It was unexpected as I thought the airplane companies won't bother and bin my letter.
> Inside were posters of saab-2000 and many more planes.
> My rooms walls had those pics for the next 10 years.
> That feeling of joy always comes back to me whenever I see a saab-2000.


wow must be a memorable time

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## Cookie Monster

Blacklight said:


> They will be integrated in Pakistan.
> 
> Brother, last time I said something on the Erieye, clueless people got upset. This time I'm double minded.


U can speak ur mind(of course it goes without saying that nothing confidential is to be said)...ignore the haters. Even if it's just a guess or rumors...the readers can simply read and choose to believe/wait and see/ignore/etc. Don't let anonymous internet nobodies dictate ur right to express urself.

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## loanranger

Safriz said:


> In 1994 when there was no internet in Pakistan, I wanted airplane photos and obviously could not Google it as there was no Google.
> I went to the library and found addresses of two aircraft manufacturers, SAAB and Dassault .
> Then from my little town in northern Pakistan I wrote letters to Saab in Sweden and Dassault in France , asking them for their airplane pictures and that I don't have any other way of getting these pics in Pakistan.
> Few months later two large packages arrived at my house on the bicycle of our postman "cha-cha". It was unexpected as I thought the airplane companies won't bother and bin my letter.
> Inside were posters of saab-2000 and many more planes.
> My rooms walls had those pics for the next 10 years.
> That feeling of joy always comes back to me whenever I see a saab-2000.


Thats an awesome story.

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## Cookie Monster

ziaulislam said:


> Still seems we have enough AWECs but are some what short on fighters now..
> Erieye system us perfect for f16s and aim120 but what about jf17 & sd 10..
> I doubt sd10 can talk to erieye


As per what I have gleaned off of PDF...Erieye has both Link 16 and Link 17. So it should be able to communicate with both F16s and JF17s...and presumably provide guidance to AIM120 and SD10s.

Perhaps someone knowledgeable can confirm the above...
@Dazzler @HRK @Quwa @araz

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## Blacklight

Cookie Monster said:


> As per what I have gleaned off of PDF..*.Erieye has both Link 16 and Link 17. So it should be able to communicate with both F16s and JF17s...and presumably provide guidance to AIM120 and SD10s.*
> 
> Perhaps someone knowledgeable can confirm the above...
> @Dazzler @HRK @Quwa @araz


Affirmative.



Safriz said:


> In 1994 when there was no internet in Pakistan, I wanted airplane photos and obviously could not Google it as there was no Google.
> I went to the library and found addresses of two aircraft manufacturers, SAAB and Dassault .
> Then from my little town in northern Pakistan I wrote letters to Saab in Sweden and Dassault in France , asking them for their airplane pictures and that I don't have any other way of getting these pics in Pakistan.
> Few months later two large packages arrived at my house on the bicycle of our postman "cha-cha". It was unexpected as I thought the airplane companies won't bother and bin my letter.
> Inside were posters of saab-2000 and many more planes.
> My rooms walls had those pics for the next 10 years.
> That feeling of joy always comes back to me whenever I see a saab-2000.



It is good stories like this, that inspire our next generation, to never take a backseat.

We should have a dedicated thread for incidents like this.

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## SQ8

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/saab-2000-lands-secretive-aewandc-deal/138431.article


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## Akh1112

Cookie Monster said:


> As per what I have gleaned off of PDF...Erieye has both Link 16 and Link 17. So it should be able to communicate with both F16s and JF17s...and presumably provide guidance to AIM120 and SD10s.
> 
> Perhaps someone knowledgeable can confirm the above...
> @Dazzler @HRK @Quwa @araz





Erieyes are compatible with ALL standards, including link 16 and 17, HOWEVER, for them to be able to guide missiles, atleast for the AIM-120(i assume the SD-10 will be similar) the launch aircraft MUST send it instructions since its reciever is in the X-Band, as opposed to the Erieye's S/L-Band transmitter(i assume since i cant find anything specific, however, that assumption isn't baseless but is based off of similar AWACS systems) , how it would work is that the launch platform would need to act as a medium between the Erieye, for example, The F-16 launches the missile, the Erieye provides midcourse guidance to the missile BUT it cant DIRECTLY provide it to the missile so it has to provide the information to the F-16 which will then transmit the data onto the missile to adjust its course or whatever

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## HRK

Cookie Monster said:


> Erieye has both Link 16


Initial batch of SAAB-2000 Erieye AEW&C had link-16 on the basis of this we should assume that previous batch of 3 additional Erieye sys are also integrated with link-16; *but *as SAAB is open modular system therefore _there might be a possibility_ to even integrate customized Data link, again as per SAAB marketing material its _*Data Fusion Engine*_ in Reporting Center System (RCS) could fuse Data and information from other sensors to create complete Air, Sea and Land picture and to send it to all integrated operators so practically it eliminate the need to integrate any other Data link with Erieye AEW&C.

In any case system of SAAB Erieye AEW&C is capable to establish complete aerial picture integration or no integration of Link-17 with SAAB Erieye is not an issue .....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Socra said:


> https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/saab-2000-lands-secretive-aewandc-deal/138431.article


If this is a Pakistani order, it would bring the PAF's fleet to 8-9 aircraft.

It would be interesting if the PAF will continue operating the ZDK03, or if it would look at transferring those to the PN. The latter had wanted its own AEW&C (Hawkeye 2000 on the P-3B), but now, it's expanding its own network-enabled assets.

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## Rafi

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If this is a Pakistani order, it would bring the PAF's fleet to 8-9 aircraft.
> 
> It would be interesting if the PAF will continue operating the ZDK03, or if it would look at transferring those to the PN. The latter had wanted its own AEW&C (Hawkeye 2000 on the P-3B), but now, it's expanding its own network-enabled assets.



As the Airforce is responsible for defense of entire airspace including over the sea, they will probably stay with the PAF, the thing that could change that would be if PN acquired a large fighter arm.

Considering all the services are going to be data linked and then data linked with each other, we will be probably going down the joint theatre commands route, which is going to be challenging and expensive and will require a change of mindset, and training in the higher level training institutes.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If this is a Pakistani order, it would bring the PAF's fleet to 8-9 aircraft.
> 
> It would be interesting if the PAF will continue operating the ZDK03, or if it would look at transferring those to the PN. The latter had wanted its own AEW&C (Hawkeye 2000 on the P-3B), but now, it's expanding its own network-enabled assets.




Hell of a lot of AEW aircraft for a country our size. Means we can keep at least 2 Erieyes and 1 ZDK up in the air permanantly during times of tension

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Rafi said:


> As the Airforce is responsible for defense of entire airspace including over the sea, they will probably stay with the PAF, the thing that could change that would be if PN acquired a large fighter arm.
> 
> Considering all the services are going to be data linked and then data linked with each other, we will be probably going down the joint theatre commands route, which is going to be challenging and expensive and will require a change of mindset, and training in the higher level training institutes.


One other thing that might stop the PN from acquiring the ZDK03s is that it's adding an AEW element to its next-gen LRMPAs. Sure, this won't provide as much coverage range as the ZDK03, but it might be good enough for the PN in terms of the capabilities it wants to directly control.



Yasser76 said:


> Hell of a lot of AEW aircraft for a country our size. Means we can keep at least 2 Erieyes and 1 ZDK up in the air permanantly during times of tension


Yep. If anything, an additional order would certainly build a reserve.

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## araz

Rafi said:


> As the Airforce is responsible for defense of entire airspace including over the sea, they will probably stay with the PAF, the thing that could change that would be if PN acquired a large fighter arm.
> 
> Considering all the services are going to be data linked and then data linked with each other, we will be probably going down the joint theatre commands route, which is going to be challenging and expensive and will require a change of mindset, and training in the higher level training institutes.


You have not answered the main question which is if these are ordered by us or not? A response would be duly appreciated my friend.
Regards
A

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## Akh1112

araz said:


> You have not answered the main question which is if these are ordered by us or not? A response would be duly appreciated my friend.
> Regards
> A




Nothing is clear, SAAB hasnt disclosed but it is HIGHLY PROBABLE its for us since we have 3 SAAB 2000's without the Erieye ordered in 2018 and 3 Erieye systems were ordered, if it was for someone else, they would have gone for the globaleye suite which uses a more modern antenna, the PAF and RSAF are the only S2K Erieye users

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## Rafi

araz said:


> You have not answered the main question which is if these are ordered by us or not? A response would be duly appreciated my friend.
> Regards
> A



"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

SH.

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## araz

Rafi said:


> "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
> 
> SH.


So Ibrahin AS asks Allah izza wa Jal how he brings things to life Allah asks him do you not have faith. Ibrahim AS replies I do but just to put my heart at ease . I am facing the same dilemma even though I am a lowly person as compared to Ibrahim AS.
Hope you can see the humour in my post.
A

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## Rafi

araz said:


> So Ibrahin AS asks Allah izza wa Jal how he brings things to life Allah asks him do you not have faith. Ibrahim AS replies I do but just to put my heart at ease . I am facing the same dilemma even though I am a lowly person as compared to Ibrahim AS.
> Hope you can see the humour in my post.
> A



I do brother, and I totally understand where you are coming from, but the big knobs don't take kindly.....to you know what. Vague comments will have to do, until the bird is in hand.

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## ziaulislam

Rafi said:


> I do brother, and I totally understand where you are coming from, but the big knobs don't take kindly.....to you know what. Vague comments will have to do, until the bird is in hand.


Saab gave it away by giving thr model details..the only two possibilities are saudis (if they are poor othwerwise they would have gone for ER) or pakistan

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> One other thing that might stop the PN from acquiring the ZDK03s is that it's adding an AEW element to its next-gen LRMPAs. Sure, this won't provide as much coverage range as the ZDK03, but it might be good enough for the PN in terms of the capabilities it wants to directly control.


Seaspray 7300E's Max Range would be around 480km conidering 7000E version has 370 and 7500E Version has 593 km. Whats the range of radar of ZDK 3?

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## araz

Rafi said:


> I do brother, and I totally understand where you are coming from, but the big knobs don't take kindly.....to you know what. Vague comments will have to do, until the bird is in hand.


Thank you.
Kind regards
A

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## SQ8

Rafi said:


> As the Airforce is responsible for defense of entire airspace including over the sea, they will probably stay with the PAF, the thing that could change that would be if PN acquired a large fighter arm.
> 
> Considering all the services are going to be data linked and then data linked with each other, we will be probably going down the joint theatre commands route, which is going to be challenging and expensive and will require a change of *mindset*, and training in the higher level training institutes.


That will come with the newer and more informed generation of officers who would discard the bureaucracy and jealousy of the old guard - good riddance to that.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If this is a Pakistani order, it would bring the PAF's fleet to 8-9 aircraft.
> 
> It would be interesting if the PAF will continue operating the ZDK03, or if it would look at transferring those to the PN. The latter had wanted its own AEW&C (Hawkeye 2000 on the P-3B), but now, it's expanding its own network-enabled assets.


It also points to the total integration of the SAAB product into the system and the essential “failure” of the ZDK series.

They will likely end up much like our IL-78s and delegated to secondary roles for maritime monitoring rather than AEW.

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## Yasser76

Socra said:


> That will come with the newer and more informed generation of officers who would discard the bureaucracy and jealousy of the old guard - good riddance to that.
> 
> 
> It also points to the total integration of the SAAB product into the system and the essential “failure” of the ZDK series.
> 
> They will likely end up much like our IL-78s and delegated to secondary roles for maritime monitoring rather than AEW.




Yes, I remember chatting to someone in PAF when decision was made to order ZDK and Erieye. PAF always wanted to go for 6 full Erieyes but Pakistan was under a lot of Chinese pressure to be the first customer for ZDK. Hence we compromised and went for 4 of each. Erieye can do whatever ZDK can do over water. It is also telling Erieye has around 10 users and we are only export customer for ZDK.

PAF now fixed the issue and looks like we will have a 9 strong Erieye fleet which is enough for 2 airborne permanetly. That covers all of Pakistan 24/7. If we can also integrate Erieye with Ships, JF-17 and P3C/ATRs then I really do not see what role there is left for ZDK. If anything it will add to logistic problems and may cause a confused air picture and time delays if it can not be integrated with all assets like Erieye can.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Socra said:


> That will come with the newer and more informed generation of officers who would discard the bureaucracy and jealousy of the old guard - good riddance to that.
> 
> 
> It also points to the total integration of the SAAB product into the system and the essential “failure” of the ZDK series.
> 
> They will likely end up much like our IL-78s and delegated to secondary roles for maritime monitoring rather than AEW.


Yep and the PAF never intended to fly the IL-78s for long. They wanted a dual boom/drogue AAR, but Airbus' A330 MRTT was both expensive and, when the PAF was open to it, denied (someone in the know basically said, "anything of strategic value is generally out-of-reach."

That said, I do wish the PAF would fund a pilot to see if they can integrate UPAZ pods to old A330s. 

Anyways, it'll be interesting to see if this same rule means we'll never see the Erieye ER. Its 70% range improvement would certainly give the PAF a practical edge (AEW&C can see further while flying farther away).

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## Pakistani Fighter

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Seaspray 7300E's Max Range would be around 480km conidering 7000E version has 370 and 7500E Version has 593 km. Whats the range of radar of ZDK 3?


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) ?



Pakistani Fighter said:


> I hope they do. Whats the disadvantage it would have over AESA?


@Dazzler


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistani Fighter said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ?
> 
> 
> @Dazzler


We don't know, actual range not disclosed, but ZDK03 will be more + over the horizon.

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## Ali_Baba

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Anyways, it'll be interesting to see if this same rule means we'll never see the Erieye ER. Its 70% range improvement would certainly give the PAF a practical edge (AEW&C can see further while flying farther away).



Which is why it is better to have a foothold in the Chinese eco-system as you are more likely to get a product with that range from China than anywhere else. Maybe that is logic?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ali_Baba said:


> Which is why it is better to have a foothold in the Chinese eco-system as you are more likely to get a product with that range from China than anywhere else. Maybe that is logic?


Depends on how much the Chinese are willing to release. Thus far, we've only been buying their export grade equipment. As long as they commit to match the capability set of others in their export portfolio, it should be good.


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep and the PAF never intended to fly the IL-78s for long. They wanted a dual boom/drogue AAR, but Airbus' A330 MRTT was both expensive and, when the PAF was open to it, denied (someone in the know basically said, "anything of strategic value is generally out-of-reach."
> 
> That said, I do wish the PAF would fund a pilot to see if they can integrate UPAZ pods to old A330s.
> 
> Anyways, it'll be interesting to see if this same rule means we'll never see the Erieye ER. *Its 70% range improvement* would certainly give the PAF a practical edge (AEW&C can see further while flying farther away).


With the associated costs that we may not be able to afford.
Although I have a feeling that just the basic range may meet our MVP requirements anyway.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Socra said:


> With the associated costs that we may not be able to afford.
> Although I have a feeling that just the basic range may meet our MVP requirements anyway.


True. Besides, after absorbing the upfront costs, the price of each additional Erieye is like $80-90 m per system, which is fairly low.

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> True. Besides, after absorbing the upfront costs, the price of each additional Erieye is like $80-90 m per system, which is fairly low.




Yeah, i was shocked when i saw the price of India's IL-76 based Phalcons. The contract for just TWO is $1.1Bn. Absurd.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> Yeah, i was shocked when i saw the price of India's IL-76 based Phalcons. The contract for just TWO is $1.1Bn. Absurd.


Yep. It makes one wonder how much longer the PAF will try milking it, especially if Saab intends to stop offering the older Erieye.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. It makes one wonder how much longer the PAF will try milking it, especially if Saab intends to stop offering the older Erieye.


We need to have all ER Versions considering Rafales and Longer Range BVRr are coming next door

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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. It makes one wonder how much longer the PAF will try milking it, especially if Saab intends to stop offering the older Erieye.


it appear the additional batch of Erieye is not the same as first purchase older Erieye system range may be the same but have evolve further in different operational modes 
as per 2015 video from SAAB official youtube channel

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## Bilal.

My eyes were prying since I had seen the following comment:


airomerix said:


> Pakistan does not have the ER version *yet*. Period.



keyword being yet. And now this news?

@airomerix was it just a casual comment? Or was meant to be more

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## Akh1112

Bilal. said:


> My eyes were preying since I had seen the following comment:
> 
> 
> keyword being yet. And now this news?
> 
> @airomerix was the yet just a casual comment?



Pakistan will not have the ER for the foreseeable future. It would either need to be certified for the SAAB 2000 or we would need to swap platforms. The current platform is more than sufficient for our needs hence PAF is pleased with their performance


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## Bilal.

Akh1112 said:


> Pakistan will not have the ER for the foreseeable future. It would either need to be certified for the SAAB 2000 or we would need to swap platforms. The current platform is more than sufficient for our needs hence PAF is pleased with their performance



Is there a weight, dimension or shape difference that it would need to be certified?


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## Tomcats

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) Hey, do we have any solid leads indicating this may be a follow up order for PAF?


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## Akh1112

Bilal. said:


> Is there a weight, dimension or shape difference that it would need to be certified?



I assume there would be some differences, i.e its only available as a part of Saab's Globaleye suite, so therefore everything would need to be redesigned to fit on the Saab 2000, i also assume it has a higher power requirement even though it uses more efficient TRM's therefore that would need to be catered to etc.



Issam said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Hey, do we have any solid leads indicating this may be a follow up order for PAF?




Yes and no. The most solid lead we can get is a confirmation from PAF or SAAB. However, we can assume that this is likely for PAF based off of a few things:

Only S2K Erieye operators are the PAF and RSAF

PAF has been pretty happy with the systems

PAF also ordered 3 baseline S2K's in 2018

The value of the contract indicates that the order is for 3 systems

Beyond this we dont have much information.

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## TsAr

Rafi said:


> I do brother, and I totally understand where you are coming from, but the big knobs don't take kindly.....to you know what. Vague comments will have to do, until the bird is in hand.


Very Cheeky....


----------



## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep and the PAF never intended to fly the IL-78s for long. They wanted a dual boom/drogue AAR, but Airbus' A330 MRTT was both expensive and, when the PAF was open to it, denied (someone in the know basically said, "anything of strategic value is generally out-of-reach."
> 
> That said, I do wish the PAF would fund a pilot to see if they can integrate UPAZ pods to old A330s.
> 
> Anyways, it'll be interesting to see if this same rule means we'll never see the Erieye ER. Its 70% range improvement would certainly give the PAF a practical edge (AEW&C can see further while flying farther away).


Even same integration can be done on Airbus 310 having a low cost option given edge to refuel our f16s



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. It makes one wonder how much longer the PAF will try milking it, especially if Saab intends to stop offering the older Erieye.


Sir what is difference between GlobleEye and Erieye ER version ?


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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> Even same integration can be done on Airbus 310 having a low cost option given edge to refuel our f16s
> 
> 
> Sir what is difference between GlobleEye and Erieye ER version ?



Globaleye is the name of the suite, based off of the Bombardier Global 6000 whereas the Erieye ER is the name of the antenna which is a GaN TRM based AESA antenna with almost double the range over the legacy Erieye

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## Scorpiooo

Akh1112 said:


> Globaleye is the name of the suite, based off of the Bombardier Global 6000 whereas the Erieye ER is the name of the antenna which is a GaN TRM based AESA antenna with almost double the range over the legacy Erieye


Excluding the plateform (plane) are both redar and supporting system provide same value or some difference 
Note between globeleye and erieye er version


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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> Excluding the plateform (plane) are both redar and supporting system provide same value or some difference
> Note between globeleye and erieye er version



The systems are fairly different, the biggest difference being the differing TRM's.

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## Scorpiooo

Akh1112 said:


> The systems are fairly different, the biggest difference being the differing TRM's.


So its mean if EriEye has ER version , even then its not match to Globeleye


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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> So its mean if EriEye has ER version , even then its not match to Globeleye




I think if we are talking about just transplanting the Antenna's (highly unlikely/simplified) in some ways you can have the capabilities of the Globaleye suite, however, unless you bring over its ELINT/EW cap too, its self defense suite etc its a whole different beast, also, one of the advantages of the Globaleye suite is its range and its platform too(global 6000)

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## Scorpiooo

Akh1112 said:


> I think if we are talking about just transplanting the Antenna's (highly unlikely/simplified) in some ways you can have the capabilities of the Globaleye suite, however, unless you bring over its ELINT/EW cap too, its self defense suite etc its a whole different beast, also, one of the advantages of the Globaleye suite is its range and its platform too(global 6000)


Thanks bro for elaborating


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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> Thanks bro for elaborating



No problem, do tag me if you have any other radar/guidance related questions, am always free to help

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## ziaulislam

HRK said:


> it appear the additional batch of Erieye is not the same as first purchase older Erieye system range may be the same but have evolve further in different operational modes
> as per 2015 video from SAAB official youtube channel


you definitively expect software updates and data processing updates that would be a incremental improvement on previous versions


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## HRK

ziaulislam said:


> you definitively expect software updates and data processing updates that would be a incremental improvement on previous versions


agreed but I think you missed the part where the SAAB representative talk about the addition of EW with Erieye ....

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## Safriz

HRK said:


> agreed but I think you missed the part where the SAAB representative talk about the addition of EW with Erieye ....
> View attachment 634912
> 
> View attachment 634913


Aesa radars can be used to create white noise for other radars by directing a focused beam that way.

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## Dil Pakistan

According the above video, PAF has the SAAB2000 system - does this mean it is the *latest version*?

...and, is it the *AESA*?

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## ziaulislam

Akh1112 said:


> I assume there would be some differences, i.e its only available as a part of Saab's Globaleye suite, so therefore everything would need to be redesigned to fit on the Saab 2000, i also assume it has a higher power requirement even though it uses more efficient TRM's therefore that would need to be catered to etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and no. The most solid lead we can get is a confirmation from PAF or SAAB. However, we can assume that this is likely for PAF based off of a few things:
> 
> Only S2K Erieye operators are the PAF and RSAF
> 
> PAF has been pretty happy with the systems
> 
> PAF also ordered 3 baseline S2K's in 2018
> 
> The value of the contract indicates that the order is for 3 systems
> 
> Beyond this we dont have much information.


isnt this the third follow on order after ordering 4 initially followed by 3 in 2017. 
this would make total of 10 ordered..a big number

how good link 17 that Pakistan use.. do we use both link 16 and 17 or just link 17?

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## Dil Pakistan




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## Akh1112

ziaulislam said:


> isnt this the third follow on order after ordering 4 initially followed by 3 in 2017.
> this would make total of 10 ordered..a big number
> 
> how good link 17 that Pakistan use.. do we use both link 16 and 17 or just link 17?




Yessir, would put us at 10 orders, i cant remember how many actually operational, i think 8?

There isnt alot of information on Link 17, however yeah we use both standards, i think Link 17 is shared between the JF-17 and the Mirage's and then of course, we have Link 16 on our F-16's which all are able to datalink with the Erieye all fine

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## Dil Pakistan



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## syed_yusuf

Having 10 erieye and 4 ke03 makes paf aewcs fleet one of the most potent in the world with very high aew density only matched by very few countries 

Indeed a good news 

What I think paf need is to increase it's number of da20 type platform to around 20 or so to support parallel operations. This is a electronic warfare world . Lastly o think paf needs additional air refulers. May be 4 more to support full fleet of jf17 and modernized mirages .

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## Imran Khan

syed_yusuf said:


> Having 10 erieye and 4 ke03 makes paf aewcs fleet one of the most potent in the world with very high aew density only matched by very few countries
> 
> Indeed a good news
> 
> What I think paf need is to increase it's number of da20 type platform to around 20 or so to support parallel operations. This is a electronic warfare world . Lastly o think paf needs additional air refulers. May be 4 more to support full fleet of jf17 and modernized mirages .


We are poor country you forget

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## syed_yusuf

Imran Khan said:


> We are poor country you forget


Indeed we are but adding 10 to 15 more EW warfare is not that expensive over next 10 years

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## Scorpiooo

Akh1112 said:


> Yessir, would put us at 10 orders, i cant remember how many actually operational, i think 8?
> 
> There isnt alot of information on Link 17, however yeah we use both standards, i think Link 17 is shared between the JF-17 and the Mirage's and then of course, we have Link 16 on our F-16's which all are able to datalink with the Erieye all fine


What about ZkD of PAF, which datalink thay work actually i think link 17 is also work on them additional offcouase no link 16.
What are there basic datalink on which thay work, ?
Di thay support NDL of Pakistan

If i am not wrong we have only 2 D20 for EW which took major role on 27 feb, do Pakistan have plan to increase there numbers too or add some alternative plane is thay dedicated role in future?


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## Kambojaric

News has made it to mainstream Swedish media now (https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/...bestallning-till-pakistan-eller-saudi-arabien). 

"Uppgift: Saabs nya hemliga miljardorder till Pakistan eller Saudiarabien" translation "Latest: Saabs new secret billion (kr) order is from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia"

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## Bratva

HRK said:


> agreed but I think you missed the part where the SAAB representative talk about the addition of EW with Erieye ....
> View attachment 634912
> 
> View attachment 634913



So it officially confirms that Little bump under the belly of PAF Erieye is for Ground Surveillance. Ever since Wajahat S Khan show revealed the Erieye bump and subsequent pics showed the bump as well , it was known unofficially that Repaired SAAB's has been retrofitted with new capability. So we can say now that After the repair, Pakistan went for the incremental upgrades of not only repaired Erieyes but the sole Survived Erieye has also been upgraded. Whether EW element has been added in addition to Ground Surveillance? That remains to be seen.

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## Zarvan

syed_yusuf said:


> Indeed we are but adding 10 to 15 more EW warfare is not that expensive over next 10 years


First are you sure this new order is given by us


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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> What about ZkD of PAF, which datalink thay work actually i think link 17 is also work on them additional offcouase no link 16.
> What are there basic datalink on which thay work, ?
> Di thay support NDL of Pakistan
> 
> If i am not wrong we have only 2 D20 for EW which took major role on 27 feb, do Pakistan have plan to increase there numbers too or add some alternative plane is thay dedicated role in future?




Im pretty sure the ZDK's will only support link 17 or whatever Chinese standard there is.

Yeah, we only have 3 D20's, however, the Erieye's do have a potent EW suite so in theory they can be used in a supporting role but we will more than likely see the PAF induct the Havasoj eventually, i see that as being the best option and probably the only option, its more a matter of when however.

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## HRK

Bratva said:


> So it officially confirms that Little bump under the belly of PAF Erieye is for Ground Surveillance. Ever since Wajahat S Khan show revealed the Erieye bump and subsequent pics showed the bump as well , it was known unofficially that Repaired SAAB's has been retrofitted with new capability. So we can say now that After the repair, Pakistan went for the incremental upgrades of not only repaired Erieyes but the sole Survived Erieye has also been upgraded. Whether EW element has been added in addition to Ground Surveillance? That remains to be seen.


exactly my understanding is same ....

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## Ali_Baba

Kambojaric said:


> News has made it to mainstream Swedish media now (https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/...bestallning-till-pakistan-eller-saudi-arabien).
> 
> "Uppgift: Saabs nya hemliga miljardorder till Pakistan eller Saudiarabien" translation "Latest: Saabs new secret billion (kr) order is from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia"



I hope it is Pakistan. It maybe lessons learnt from the Feb 2019 incident and the need to have a stronger air arm as India will always attempt to escalate via the airforce first and that is where Pakistan needs to have supremacy over the IAF. It also highlights the network centric warefare capabilities of PAF being taken to the next level.

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## Yasser76

Ali_Baba said:


> I hope it is Pakistan. It maybe lessons learnt from the Feb 2019 incident and the need to have a stronger air arm as India will always attempt to escalate via the airforce first and that is where Pakistan needs to have supremacy over the IAF. It also highlights the network centric warefare capabilities of PAF being taken to the next level.



Just realised, with 10 planes I think that will make Pakistan a Erieye fleet larger then all other used combined!

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## Readerdefence

Akh1112 said:


> Im pretty sure the ZDK's will only support link 17 or whatever Chinese standard there is.
> 
> Yeah, we only have two D20's, however, the Erieye's do have a potent EW suite so in theory they can be used in a supporting role but we will more than likely see the PAF induct the Havasoj eventually, i see that as being the best option and probably the only option, its more a matter of when however.


Hi PAF got 3 D20 which been proved by the senior member with their pictures & names 
Just a small info hope you will edit that in your nice post 
Thank you

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## Akh1112

Readerdefence said:


> Hi PAF got 3 D20 which been proved by the senior member with their pictures & names
> Just a small info hope you will edit that in your nice post
> Thank you




Thanks for the correction, will update wiki too.

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## Scorpiooo

Akh1112 said:


> Im pretty sure the ZDK's will only support link 17 or whatever Chinese standard there is.
> 
> Yeah, we only have 3 D20's, however, the Erieye's do have a potent EW suite so in theory they can be used in a supporting role but we will more than likely see the PAF induct the Havasoj eventually, i see that as being the best option and probably the only option, its more a matter of when however.


Havasoj is i think turkish project, how you think Pakistan going to accure it, no news or interest show by Pakistan and i think its still in its testing phase, i think you may have some lead if you r saying so



Readerdefence said:


> Hi PAF got 3 D20 which been proved by the senior member with their pictures & names
> Just a small info hope you will edit that in your nice post
> Thank you


Is 3 D20 are enough for now ?


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## Haris Ali2140

Does anyone know whether such a statement was realeased by SAAB regarding the 3 Erieye radars we bought in 2016 or 2017???


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## Flight of falcon

Common sense dictates that with Saudis under complete military sale sanctions for almost a year by Sweden then only other Saab operator is Pakistan.

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## aziqbal

in my opinion we dont need more Western AWACS we need more Chinese 

4 x KJ-500 AWACS to add to the current ZDK-03 fleet of 4 to give 8 

8 x Erieye should cover the rest we need 16 x AWACS to provide 24/7 coverage for each sector North, South, East and West 

4 aircraft in each sector with 1 in the air, 1 ready to take off when one lands, one in overhaul and one in shake down mode after flight 

this will ensure all 4 corners of Pakistan are protected

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## syed_yusuf

aziqbal said:


> in my opinion we dont need more Western AWACS we need more Chinese
> 
> 4 x KJ-500 AWACS to add to the current ZDK-03 fleet of 4 to give 8
> 
> 8 x Erieye should cover the rest we need 16 x AWACS to provide 24/7 coverage for each sector North, South, East and West
> 
> 4 aircraft in each sector with 1 in the air, 1 ready to take off when one lands, one in overhaul and one in shake down mode after flight
> 
> this will ensure all 4 corners of Pakistan are protected



Protected against 4th gen fighters one 5th gen fighters enters the theater I believe these aewcs will render useless


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## Blacklight

syed_yusuf said:


> Protected against 4th gen fighters one 5th gen fighters enters the theater I believe these aewcs will render useless


Can you tell me how PAF managed to scramble vipers to intercept F22?

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## Fighting Falcon 01

syed_yusuf said:


> Protected against 4th gen fighters one 5th gen fighters enters the theater I believe these aewcs will render useless


5th gen fighter aircraft are not coming anytime soon india is building up 4th gen fighters and so is Pakistan both Azm and AMCA will not be in production till late 2030s so these Awacs will stay relevant till 2040 after that we can upgrade them or get new ones the current version is enough to serve fantastic tea to our neighbor's so nothing to worry about.

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## Blacklight

aziqbal said:


> in my opinion we dont need more Western AWACS we need more Chinese
> 
> 4 x KJ-500 AWACS to add to the current ZDK-03 fleet of 4 to give 8
> 
> 8 x Erieye should cover the rest we need 16 x AWACS to provide 24/7 coverage for each sector North, South, East and West
> 
> 4 aircraft in each sector with 1 in the air, 1 ready to take off when one lands, one in overhaul and one in shake down mode after flight
> 
> this will ensure all 4 corners of Pakistan are protected


Are you even aware of the differences between Erieye and ZDK-03? In terms of range and reliability?

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## Readerdefence

Scorpiooo said:


> Havasoj is i think turkish project, how you think Pakistan going to accure it, no news or interest show by Pakistan and i think its still in its testing phase, i think you may have some lead if you r saying so
> 
> 
> Is 3 D20 are enough for now ?


Hi I believe so coz between Pakistan & India air corridor is not too vast as at the moment paf is not going going for much deeper inside Indian territory 
Thank you


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## Yasser76

aziqbal said:


> in my opinion we dont need more Western AWACS we need more Chinese
> 
> 4 x KJ-500 AWACS to add to the current ZDK-03 fleet of 4 to give 8
> 
> 8 x Erieye should cover the rest we need 16 x AWACS to provide 24/7 coverage for each sector North, South, East and West
> 
> 4 aircraft in each sector with 1 in the air, 1 ready to take off when one lands, one in overhaul and one in shake down mode after flight
> 
> this will ensure all 4 corners of Pakistan are protected



So much wrong with this post I do not know even where to start.

2 AEW in the air at the same time if more then enough. 8-9 Erieyes can easily do this.

Having just one platform as AEW will make the network quicker and more efficient and make it easier for everyone to "talk" to each other

All 4 corners of Pakistan do not need AEW protection unless we are expecting out of the blue air strikes from Afgganistan and Iran

What you are suggesting will give Pakistan the second largest AEW fleet in the world and will be a needless drain on men, money and equipment. More AEW planes then actual fighter squadrons is insanity,


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## Blacklight

Yasser76 said:


> So much wrong with this post I do not know even where to start.
> 
> 2 AEW in the air at the same time if more then enough. 8-9 Erieyes can easily do this.
> 
> Having just one platform as AEW will make the network quicker and more efficient and make it easier for everyone to "talk" to each other
> 
> All 4 corners of Pakistan do not need AEW protection unless we are expecting out of the blue air strikes from Afgganistan and Iran
> 
> What you are suggesting will give Pakistan the second largest AEW fleet in the world and will be a needless drain on men, money and equipment. More AEW planes then actual fighter squadrons is insanity,


When people are not aware of operational limitations, and SOP's, such comments are made.

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## Zarvan

Blacklight said:


> Can you tell me how PAF managed to scramble vipers to intercept F22?



When the hell did that happen ???

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## Blacklight

Zarvan said:


> When the hell did that happen ???


Don't remember exactly, a few years back. On its way to Afgh poor guy got lost, and was shown the way. 

Btw, not just one incident, they test our systems and scramble times, more often than one would imagine.

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## TsAr

Blacklight said:


> Don't remember exactly, a few years back. On its way to Afgh poor guy got lost, and was shown the way.
> 
> Btw, not just one incident, they test our systems and scramble times, more often than one would imagine.


This was not the lone incident, they have been doing it....

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## Zarvan

Blacklight said:


> Don't remember exactly, a few years back. On its way to Afgh poor guy got lost, and was shown the way.
> 
> Btw, not just one incident, they test our systems and scramble times, more often than one would imagine.


That is news to me and gives me hope. And after humiliation of Abottabad raid we should keep all our borders fully covered with all kinds of defenses

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## Blacklight

Zarvan said:


> That is news to me and gives me hope. And after humiliation of Abottabad raid we should keep all our borders fully covered with all kinds of defenses


Dont worry, Abottabad didnt happen without PAF knowing about it, and since then a lot of things have changed as well.

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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> Havasoj is i think turkish project, how you think Pakistan going to accure it, no news or interest show by Pakistan and i think its still in its testing phase, i think you may have some lead if you r saying so
> 
> 
> Is 3 D20 are enough for now ?




I dont have a lead, just a logical assumption really. Realistically, we either have Europe or Turkey for our new EW platforms(when we need them). I am unsure about the offerings from Europe since i cant recall anything off the top of my head. However, Turkey is in a position to develop the Havasoj and export it reasonably freely creating an opportunity for Pakistan to be able to purchase a next gen EW platform. We are building our infrastructure around Turkish communications/ew systems, logically it makes sense to go for the Havasoj next.


As of now i think 3 DA20 are sufficient since we arent really using them for anything besides high risk operations, of course, we could always do with more but it should be sufficient for now

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> Are you even aware of the differences between Erieye and ZDK-03? In terms of range and reliability?


@Blacklight Cleanly he dont. Its simple comparing old mehran with new civic



Akh1112 said:


> I dont have a lead, just a logical assumption really. Realistically, we either have Europe or Turkey for our new EW platforms(when we need them). I am unsure about the offerings from Europe since i cant recall anything off the top of my head. However, Turkey is in a position to develop the Havasoj and export it reasonably freely creating an opportunity for Pakistan to be able to purchase a next gen EW platform. We are building our infrastructure around Turkish communications/ew systems, logically it makes sense to go for the Havasoj next.
> 
> 
> As of now i think 3 DA20 are sufficient since we arent really using them for anything besides high risk operations, of course, we could always do with more but it should be sufficient for now


Agree totally that we need increase number , but my point is 3 will nit be enough after 27 feb incident, we D20 played vital role in it, unfortunately enemy agian in mood of misadventure, in case of multiple misadventure at same time we need them or what is any of it damaged (we cant forget karachi base attach on saabs)

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## Bossman

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Does anyone know whether such a statement was realeased by SAAB regarding the 3 Erieye radars we bought in 2016 or 2017???


Yes


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## Akh1112

aziqbal said:


> in my opinion we dont need more Western AWACS we need more Chinese
> 
> 4 x KJ-500 AWACS to add to the current ZDK-03 fleet of 4 to give 8
> 
> 8 x Erieye should cover the rest we need 16 x AWACS to provide 24/7 coverage for each sector North, South, East and West
> 
> 4 aircraft in each sector with 1 in the air, 1 ready to take off when one lands, one in overhaul and one in shake down mode after flight
> 
> this will ensure all 4 corners of Pakistan are protected




You are aware that a fleet size of 11 is sufficent for 24/7 coverage of the airspace.

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## Scorpiooo

Akh1112 said:


> You are aware that a fleet size of 11 is sufficent for 24/7 coverage of the airspace.


Sir as pee rough calculation with these new inductions considering 2 to 3 , adding 6 pervious will take total to 8 to 9 saab 2000 with awacs remaining will be vip and training role .
@Akh1112. i am right or missing something here ?

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## aziqbal

it amazes me how many Pakistanis still in 2020 have this gareeb and lachar mentality

Yes lets buy Western equipment our masters will not be happy typical victim mentality

for 76 x F16s we have 7-8 Erieye and yet we are close to over 120 x JF17 but still we want more Erieye and not Chinese AWACS like KJ-500 which btw is more advanced than the ZDK-03 we have

and then we have more silly comments saying we cant afford 4 extra AWACS when we already 11 operational just gets worse

has anyone here even actually seen a AWACS in their life other than on Youtube? you do realise range is not the only factor we dont need range our strategic depth is next to zero we cant hide in our airspace

Chinese AWACS comes with the unknown factor, ones that outweighs the benefits of a better AWACS from the West like anti-jamming, tracking and offensive capabilities

but yet time and time again Pakistanis always look up and West for hand outs, just because its Western means its great and unbeatable, this is what we call gareeb and lachar mentality and too many fan boys love thinking like this



Blacklight said:


> Can you tell me how PAF managed to scramble vipers to intercept F22?



pardon me can you repeat this? when you make ridiculous unsubstantiated reports this like you are giving fanboys on this forum a chance to jump up and down and I ask you to refrain from making bombastic silly claims like this without providing any evidence as some of us here are well known to know our stuff and not so gullible

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## araz

aziqbal said:


> oh please I asked you for your source for your ridiculous claims and you derailed the thread to avoid getting caught out, oh I heard, oh I seen oh I read somewhere
> 
> now that you have been cut down to size next time think before you post I will be watching you


Gentlemen.
I am only intervening as anyone who makes peace between two brotyers enters Jannah. So for the sake of the Ramadan that has just gone by please do not continue down this line. You are both senior and respected posters. If there is no resolution please agree to disagree and move on. To be fair if @Blacklight is a professional he will not be able to provide you a reference. By the same token he should perhaps not make too many claims to rock the boat too much. It becomes really difficult if you make claims which cannot be backed up for people to not question the veracity of your claims.
Anyways please lets continue on civilly. I think with respect to the topic of ZDK03 there were reports of some difficulties in the upgrade process to KLJ500. So this maybe PAF's way of confirming those rumours. With the work carried out on th Erieyes the cost per unit has gone down significantly which might make it a much more attractive option. 
A

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## Zarvan

Blacklight said:


> Ref: Item in bold.
> 
> Anything I have said so far, has already been said on this forum by other more honorable members. It is not breaking news.
> 
> On the ZDK-03's - prior to their system upgrades, of which the radar was not included, it was no where near the Legacy Erieye. Even after the upgrade, It cannot match Erieye, in either range, or reliability. But to win useless online accolades, some people keep firing arrows in the air. It is bound to hit somewhere.
> 
> You on the other hand, I must thank for your initiative. May Allah reward you for your efforts.
> 
> Btw when I got the notification that you had tagged me, I thought today I will get the coveted red star
> 
> Best Regards!


At least for some people's understanding please tell them that there is no such thing as 100 % stealth or undetectable. People here have some hilarious notions about stealth thing.

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## Bilal.

Zarvan said:


> At least for some people's understanding please tell them that there is no such thing as 100 % stealth or undetectable. People here have some hilarious notions about stealth thing.



That’s why they are called LO or VLO(Low or Very Low they are not NO(Non Observable - Just coined that up). They are optimized on certain angles and frequency range.

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## Blacklight

Zarvan said:


> At least for some people's understand please tell them that there is no such thing as 100 % stealth or undetectable. People here have some hilarious notions about stealth thing.


First lets establish something, Stealth aircraft are not Jinn. They have a radar / IR signature, although one that is minuscule, and normal radars would detect them too late, if at all.

PAF Air Defence Directorate's, recent induction of the Chinese JY-27A is not its first attempt into the realm of stealth a/c tracking. VERA and then VERA NG have been there for a decade plus.

These stealth tracking systems work by being cued by the likes of TPS-77. Data from multiple units is assimilated, in real time, and range, altitude, heading of an a/c is produced. This can further be updated to QRA a/c's via radio or data links.

PAF is one of the few services in the world to posses this capability. 

Once a QRA a/c has a stealth a/c in sight, its best bet to engage it, would be an IR based A2A missile. It's another issue, that severe political repercussions would follow. 

Note: QRA = Quick Reaction Alert, this is not the terminology PAF uses, but RAF does, and unfortunately for me it is engraved in my head.

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## airomerix

aziqbal said:


> it amazes me how many Pakistanis still in 2020 have this gareeb and lachar mentality



I'd like to pitch in with my limited knowledge here.



> Yes lets buy Western equipment our masters will not be happy typical victim mentality



For better or for worse, western technology as we put it has been preferred due to factors such as better safety standards, better metallurgy, greater maturity due to learnings incorporated from military operations/exercises from the past 50 years.

In 1988, we were denied E-3A and offered E-2C instead. We rejected it because E-2C's performance in mountainous terrain was not what we had envisioned (referring to radar performance). Hence this speaks volumes about Pakistan's 'pick and choose' mindset as compared to what you're quoting.




> for 76 x F16s we have 7-8 Erieye and yet we are close to over 120 x JF17 but still we want more Erieye and not Chinese AWACS like KJ-500 which btw is more advanced than the ZDK-03 we have



It does not work this way. The acquisition of Erieye makes more sense due to fleet commonality and better overall capability. I will talk about capability in the later portion.



> and then we have more silly comments saying we cant afford 4 extra AWACS when we already 11 operational just gets worse



AWACS is an expensive platform. But it better be worth it once acquired. It should serve the purpose. This is what matters.



> *has anyone here even actually seen a AWACS in their life* other than on Youtube? you do realise range is not the only factor we dont need range our strategic depth is next to zero we cant hide in our airspace



It does not matter.



> Chinese AWACS comes with the unknown factor, ones that outweighs the benefits of a better AWACS from the West like anti-jamming, tracking and offensive capabilities



I wish this was true.



> but yet time and time again Pakistanis always look up and West for hand outs, just because its Western means its great and unbeatable, this is what we call gareeb and lachar mentality and too many fan boys love thinking like this
> 
> pardon me can you repeat this? when you make ridiculous unsubstantiated reports this like you are giving fanboys on this forum a chance to jump up and down and I ask you to refrain from making bombastic silly claims like this without providing any evidence as some of us here are well known to know our stuff and not so gullible



Please refer below.


*My Assessment of ZDK 03 vis a vis SAAB 2000*


*System Capability 
*
ZDK-03 radar covers a full 360 degrees in azimuth and we can't know if it is AESA or not (this is not public information). Erieye on the other hand has a smaller dual side fixed planer array antenna which covers a maximum of 120 degrees on each side (azimuth mode). It is an 'advanced' AESA with pulse doppler multi-mode capability.

One of the primary reasons why Erieye was based at Kamra was due to its powerful data/sig processing capability over land and mountainous terrain as compared to ZDK-03. Technically speaking, radar clutter signals reflected over land are stronger (also means more complex) as compared to clutter signals from the sea. Hence, the AWACS radar's which possess powerful signal processing and better clutter handling capability is based on land. Mountainous terrain, the complex net of ground based radars and their noise, birds, vehicles, smaller drone traffic, varying weather conditions all contribute to the increased complexity of the radars scanning airspace over land, while the sea clutter can be handled by the weaker radars such as ZDK 03 in this case.

I will not be commenting on the radar ranges since it is sensitive information and cannot be discussed.

*Carrier Capability *

SAAB 2000 is a twin engine turboprop that is very efficient in fuel consumption and long term performance from a sustainment standpoint. Y-8, however not only has 4 engines, it is also not a very stable aircraft to fly and lacks a digital glass cockpit. Turn rates and climb rates of Y-8 are also sub par as compared to SAAB 2000. Naturally, due to 2 additional engines, Y-8 has greater ferry range/combat radius but once we break it down to cost per NM, SAAB 2000 comes out on top.

*Implications in Indo-Pak Scenario. *

Pakistan shares a wide variety of land based terrain with India and lacks the strategic depth. Which means, a side looking Erieye traveling from North to South makes more sense compared to 360 looking ZDK-03 given the technological advantages of the former system. Furthermore, ZDK-03 does its job reasonably well supporting the Naval fleet, Naval air arm, and PAF squadrons in the south. However, any day, if you ask a JF-17 pilot to pick and choose between Erieye and ZDK 03 as their battle manager, Erieye will always come on top.

And they are not fanboys.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

airomerix said:


> I'd like to pitch in with my limited knowledge here.
> 
> 
> 
> For better or for worse, western technology as we put it has been preferred due to factors such as better safety standards, better metallurgy, greater maturity due to learnings incorporated from military operations/exercises from the past 50 years.
> 
> In 1988, we were denied E-3A and offered E-2C instead. We rejected it because E-2C's performance in mountainous terrain (referring to radar performance). Hence this speaks volumes about Pakistan's 'pick and choose' mindset as compared to what you're quoting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does not work this way. The acquisition of Erieye makes more sense due to fleet commonality and better overall capability. I will talk about capability in the later portion.
> 
> 
> 
> AWACS is an expensive platform. But it better be worth it once acquired. It should serve the purpose. This is what matters.
> 
> 
> 
> It does not matter.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish this was true.
> 
> 
> 
> Please refer below.
> 
> 
> *My Assessment of ZDK 03 vis a vis SAAB 2000*
> 
> 
> *System Capability
> *
> ZDK-03 radar covers a full 360 degrees in azimuth and we can't know if it is AESA or not (this is not public information). Erieye on the other hand has a smaller dual side fixed planer array antenna which covers a maximum of 120 degrees on each side (azimuth mode). It is an 'advanced' AESA with pulse doppler multi-mode capability.
> 
> One of the primary reasons why Erieye was based at Kamra was due to its powerful data/sig processing capability over land and mountainous terrain as compared to ZDK-03. Technically speaking, radar clutter signals reflected over land are stronger (also means more complex) as compared to clutter signals from the sea. Hence, the AWACS radar's which possess powerful signal processing and better clutter handling capability is based on land. Mountainous terrain, the complex net of ground based radars and their noise, birds, vehicles, smaller drone traffic, varying weather conditions all contribute to the increased complexity of the radars scanning airspace over land, while the sea clutter can be handled by the weaker radars such as ZDK 03 in this case.
> 
> I will not be commenting on the radar ranges since it is sensitive information and cannot be discussed.
> 
> *Carrier Capability *
> 
> SAAB 2000 is a twin engine turboprop that is very efficient in fuel consumption and long term performance from a sustainment standpoint. Y-8, however not only has 4 engines, it is also not a very stable aircraft to fly and lacks a digital glass cockpit. Turn rates and climb rates of Y-8 are also sub par as compared to SAAB 2000. Naturally, due to 2 additional engines, Y-8 has greater ferry range/combat radius but once we break it down to cost per NM, SAAB 2000 comes out on top.
> 
> *Implications in Indo-Pak Scenario. *
> 
> Pakistan shares a wide variety of land based terrain with India and lacks the strategic depth. Which means, a side looking Erieye traveling from North to South makes more sense compared to 360 looking ZDK-03 given the technological advantages of the former system. Furthermore, ZDK-03 does its job reasonably well supporting the Naval fleet, Naval air arm, and PAF squadrons in the south. However, any day, if you ask a JF-17 pilot to pick and choose between Erieye and ZDK 03 as their battle manager, Erieye will always come on top.
> 
> And they are not fanboys.


IMO the Erieye has as much to do with the PAF bringing the cost of adding new units to a reasonably low point -- $80-90 m per system. Sure, it isn't the latest technology, but it's still high-quality and proven, so acquiring it at such a low price point doesn't come along everyday. 

Financially speaking, it's the same story with seeking used C-130s and both new and used F-16s. You basically have a purpose-built support infrastructure for both, and know exactly what to expect and how to deploy. Thus, the cost and risk of adding more of either is the least.

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## airomerix

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the Erieye has as much to do with the PAF bringing the cost of adding new units to a reasonably low point -- $80-90 m per system. Sure, it isn't the latest technology, but it's still high-quality and proven, so acquiring it at such a low price point doesn't come along everyday.
> 
> Financially speaking, it's the same story with seeking used C-130s and both new and used F-16s. You basically have a purpose-built support infrastructure for both, and know exactly what to expect and how to deploy. Thus, the cost and risk of adding more of either is the least.



From a financial standpoint, acquiring Chinese systems has always been easier. We have a kind of relationship with Chinese that they will not bother giving us a credit line to buy, operate, and sustain any major system. So immediate financial considerations were not a major concern. In fact, on the contrary, we had to give our arm and leg to get a major part of the money upfront for Swedes and then place orders for Erieye's. Also, Swedes are touchy about FATF, terror financing allegation and political strings/diplomatic repercussions. It has always been harder to get SAAB 2000's both diplomatically and financially.

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## Scorpiooo

Just adding here with my little knowledge (not information) bcuz alot actual expert are here providing us valuable knowledge everyday.

*About stealth aircraft misconception *
First please clear sealth dont mean *invisible plane, *its just a aircraft with low RCS means low tracking on radars.

*About Sealth Aircraft and Programs*
Sharing after study of few case studies of these project in person (available on net) most of these program archived *output* but unable to gain actual desired _*Outcome*_, so the public claim of ther RCS and actual is quite different , specially in different environments , that way still keep testing them in different regions. To find there effectiveness not improvements

Evidence is that look around the world.
*Usa* stop production of F22 dacade ago, F35 they more interested in selling to others then local inductions now , look at latest order of F15 instead of *F35
China*, only inducted few J20 , not willing to induct FC31 , no body actual knows there sealth power .
*Russia*, still suffering with Su 57 badly .

*Reaming world* , like Uk, france. Sweden, other European partners skipped 5th generation program at all moved to 6th generation programs, bcause thay know thay will never able achive desired sealth, instead wasting thay starting working on 6th generation directly,
Same goes for usa, china and russia thay now actively working on there own 6th generation programs
*Thay have Start focusing on other main components of 6th generation aircraft which will be actual future air warfares, along limited stealth posible.*

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## Blacklight

airomerix said:


> I'd like to pitch in with my limited knowledge here.
> 
> 
> 
> For better or for worse, western technology as we put it has been preferred due to factors such as better safety standards, better metallurgy, greater maturity due to learnings incorporated from military operations/exercises from the past 50 years.
> 
> In 1988, we were denied E-3A and offered E-2C instead. We rejected it because E-2C's performance in mountainous terrain was not what we had envisioned (referring to radar performance). Hence this speaks volumes about Pakistan's 'pick and choose' mindset as compared to what you're quoting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does not work this way. The acquisition of Erieye makes more sense due to fleet commonality and better overall capability. I will talk about capability in the later portion.
> 
> 
> 
> AWACS is an expensive platform. But it better be worth it once acquired. It should serve the purpose. This is what matters.
> 
> 
> 
> It does not matter.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish this was true.
> 
> 
> 
> Please refer below.
> 
> 
> *My Assessment of ZDK 03 vis a vis SAAB 2000*
> 
> 
> *System Capability
> *
> ZDK-03 radar covers a full 360 degrees in azimuth and we can't know if it is AESA or not (this is not public information). Erieye on the other hand has a smaller dual side fixed planer array antenna which covers a maximum of 120 degrees on each side (azimuth mode). It is an 'advanced' AESA with pulse doppler multi-mode capability.
> 
> One of the primary reasons why Erieye was based at Kamra was due to its powerful data/sig processing capability over land and mountainous terrain as compared to ZDK-03. Technically speaking, radar clutter signals reflected over land are stronger (also means more complex) as compared to clutter signals from the sea. Hence, the AWACS radar's which possess powerful signal processing and better clutter handling capability is based on land. Mountainous terrain, the complex net of ground based radars and their noise, birds, vehicles, smaller drone traffic, varying weather conditions all contribute to the increased complexity of the radars scanning airspace over land, while the sea clutter can be handled by the weaker radars such as ZDK 03 in this case.
> 
> I will not be commenting on the radar ranges since it is sensitive information and cannot be discussed.
> 
> *Carrier Capability *
> 
> SAAB 2000 is a twin engine turboprop that is very efficient in fuel consumption and long term performance from a sustainment standpoint. Y-8, however not only has 4 engines, it is also not a very stable aircraft to fly and lacks a digital glass cockpit. Turn rates and climb rates of Y-8 are also sub par as compared to SAAB 2000. Naturally, due to 2 additional engines, Y-8 has greater ferry range/combat radius but once we break it down to cost per NM, SAAB 2000 comes out on top.
> 
> *Implications in Indo-Pak Scenario. *
> 
> Pakistan shares a wide variety of land based terrain with India and lacks the strategic depth. Which means, a side looking Erieye traveling from North to South makes more sense compared to 360 looking ZDK-03 given the technological advantages of the former system. Furthermore, ZDK-03 does its job reasonably well supporting the Naval fleet, Naval air arm, and PAF squadrons in the south. However, any day, if you ask a JF-17 pilot to pick and choose between Erieye and ZDK 03 as their battle manager, Erieye will always come on top.
> 
> And they are not fanboys.





airomerix said:


> *My Assessment of ZDK 03 vis a vis SAAB 2000
> System Capability *
> ZDK-03 radar covers a full 360 degrees in azimuth and we can't know if it is AESA or not (this is not public information). *Erieye on the other hand has a smaller dual side fixed planer array antenna which covers a maximum of 120 degrees on each side (azimuth mode)*. It is an 'advanced' AESA with pulse doppler multi-mode capability.
> .



Agree on all points except the above in red. Please note:

*Saab 2000 AEW&C prepares for duty*
by David Donald
- July 3, 2008

Coverage has been increased to two 150-degree sectors (from 120-degrees, still with a 1-degree beamwidth), with range out to the horizon (typically 199 to 217 miles).

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2008-07-03/saab-2000-aewc-prepares-duty

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## Apex

Wait till the 30th of this month there's something coming.

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## Scorpiooo

Apex said:


> Wait till the 30th of this month there's something coming.


Other then saabs ?


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## airomerix

Blacklight said:


> Agree on all points except the above in red. Please note:
> 
> *Saab 2000 AEW&C prepares for duty*
> by David Donald
> - July 3, 2008
> 
> Coverage has been increased to two 150-degree sectors (from 120-degrees, still with a 1-degree beamwidth), with range out to the horizon (typically 199 to 217 miles).
> 
> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2008-07-03/saab-2000-aewc-prepares-duty




There are several factors that go into determining the detection angle. Results are varied according to different target sizes and their radar-absorbent characteristics. 

"*The system is capable of tracking multiple air and sea target over the horizon and provides above 20km altitude coverage, 360° coverage and has sea surveillance capability."*

*https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/saab-2000/*

Hence, for various targets, SAAB 2000 is able to detect targets 360 degrees around. While the general definiteion of angular coverage is said to be 120 degrees for all targets.

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## Blacklight

airomerix said:


> There are several factors that go into determining the detection angle. Results are varied according to different target sizes and their radar-absorbent characteristics.
> 
> "The system is capable of tracking multiple air and sea target over the horizon and provides above 20km altitude coverage, 360° coverage and has sea surveillance capability."
> 
> *https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/saab-2000/*
> 
> Hence, for various targets, SAAB 2000 is able to detect targets 360 degrees around. While the general definiteion of angular coverage is said* to be 120 degrees* for all targets.



120 degrees was *pre-1995*. Lets agree to disagree.

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> First lets establish something, Stealth aircraft are not Jinn. They have a radar / IR signature, although one that is minuscule, and normal radars would detect them too late, if at all.
> 
> PAF Air Defence Directorate's, recent induction of the Chinese JY-27A is not its first attempt into the realm of stealth a/c tracking. VERA and then VERA NG have been there for a decade plus.
> 
> These stealth tracking systems work by being cued by the likes of TPS-77. Data from multiple units is assimilated, in real time, and range, altitude, heading of an a/c is produced. This can further be updated to QRA a/c's via radio or data links.
> 
> PAF is one of the few services in the world to posses this capability.
> 
> Once a QRA a/c has a stealth a/c in sight, its best bet to engage it, would be an IR based A2A missile. It's another issue, that severe political repercussions would follow.
> 
> Note: QRA = Quick Reaction Alert, this is not the terminology PAF uses, but RAF does, and unfortunately for me it is engraved in my head.


i think paf uses CAP

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## Dil Pakistan

Serbia shot down a US stealth jet …… which Serbian radar detected it?


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## The Raven

I don't find it difficult to believe the PAF detected and tracked an F-22, multiple other countries have been able to achieve that and the tactics against the F-22 are probably widely known by now. What I do find difficult to believe is how the F-22 pilot "got lost" on his way to Afghanistan, given the advanced navigation aids at hand. That would suggest some form of complete technical failure in navigation equipment and communication in the F-22.

Of course, the other most likely explanation was that the F-22 wasn't even in stealth mode, it was probably using a Luneburg lens to generate a specific RCS signal to identify its presence. The USAF don't need an F-22 in VLO mode to bomb the Taliban in Afghanistan, its use there was mostly as a proving ground to hone its deployment and air to ground capabilities.The USAF routinely use Luneburg lenses on F-22s and F-35s when they don't need complete VLO, as well as the Chinese on the J-20.

Luneburg lens RCS enhancer on F-22.









ali_raza said:


> i think paf uses CAP



Yep, QRA (quick reaction alert) is typically used by the RAF, while the PAF uses CAP (combat air patrols).

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## Blacklight

Dil Pakistan said:


> Serbia shot down a US stealth jet …… *which Serbian radar detected it?*


P-18

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> P-18


wasn’t it operators personal genius who got that plane down

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## aziqbal

airomerix said:


> Pakistan shares a wide variety of land based terrain with India and lacks the strategic depth. Which means, a side looking Erieye traveling from North to South makes more sense compared to 360 looking ZDK-03 given the technological advantages of the former system. Furthermore, ZDK-03 does its job reasonably well supporting the Naval fleet, Naval air arm, and PAF squadrons in the south. However, any day, if you ask a JF-17 pilot to pick and choose between Erieye and ZDK 03 as their battle manager, Erieye will always come on top.
> 
> And they are not fanboys.



can we first go back to my original post #5732 and see what I wrote before this comparison between Erieye and ZDK-03 started ? who compared Erieye to ZDK-03, not me

I clearly mentioned we should go for additional KJ-500 AWACS, then due to the ignorance of subsequent members including some seniors who simply didnt know what KJ-500 was or even heard of the KJ500 AWACS to make it simple for their own understanding they started comparison between Erieye vs ZDK-03 to avoid getting into a panic

so to clear what is the KJ-500 its NOT ZDK-03 its new generation of Chinese AWACSs based on the newer Y-9 platform not the Y-8 category III platform, even the platforms are different now are talking about a completely different AWACS

The KJ-500 is the result of the 38th institute and is a ASEA radar with full true 360 degree coverage, its Chinas first mass produced AWACS and is operational now with the Chinese Air Force and the Navy with probably between 20-30 units operational which is a very high number for AWACS production and production is in full swing right

there are some fair points which should be answered-

yes Erieye is using longitude radar for North South operations as such it could be better suited to geography and terrain of Northern Areas, but also KJ-500 was deployed to Tibet close to Doklam stand off in 2017 which means this AWACS can work in mountainous terrain also, there is satellite images for it

yes also Erieye can do sea surveillance and reconnaissance missions but so KJ-500 since it was also deployed to Fiery Cross Artificial reef in the Spratly islands in South China sea in 2018 there is satellite images for it also

yes Erieye has range but also new variant the KJ-500A has been spotted with IFR probe in 2018 also making it long endurance AWACS, working also with our Midas tankers

and finally with JF17 Block III ASEA and KJ-500 AESA it would be a game in terms of situational awareness both systems would work in synergy, as a matter of fact all F16+Erieye roles would be replaced with JF17 Block III + KJ-500 AWACS

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## Trailer23

Why the hell doesn't *Leonardo* build a bloody AEW&C?

They have the ATR 42/72MP, but that isn't what we're looking for.
https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/air/aircraft/multi-mission-surveillance-aircraft


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> Why the hell doesn't *Leonardo* build a bloody AEW&C?
> 
> They have the ATR 42/72MP, but that isn't what we're looking for.
> https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/air/aircraft/multi-mission-surveillance-aircraft


They can probably ask their Selex Galileo division to do it, but it's probably an issue of cost and addressable market. Raytheon, IAI and Saab have more or less grabbed 90%+ of the addressable market share, leaving Leonardo with very few potential customers worth anything, if any.

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## Trailer23

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) 
I think Embraer also has a bit of the market.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> I think Embraer also has a bit of the market.


Embraer uses the Saab Erieye (and in India the DRDO AEW&C).

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They can probably ask their Selex Galileo division to do it, but it's probably an issue of cost and addressable market. Raytheon, IAI and Saab have more or less grabbed 90%+ of the addressable market share, leaving Leonardo with very few potential customers worth anything, if any.


Can Leonardo/Selex possibly make the antena/radar? Maybe the way india built their netra we can try to build some that way with their input. I am sure there are nations that have a need for airborne surveillance and the established nations are not keen on selling them it!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> Can Leonardo/Selex possibly make the antena/radar? Maybe the way india built their netra we can try to build some that way with their input. I am sure there are nations that have a need for airborne surveillance and the established nations are not keen on selling them it!


Selex/Leonardo can make the radar unit as a standalone product. They know GaN TRMs as well as anyone, so if there is a customer, I'm sure they can develop a solution.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> typically 199 to 217 miles


Range looks less. 320km. How much farther it ill be able to detect Rafale that would be the question


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## Blacklight

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Range looks less. 320km. How much farther it ill be able to detect Rafale that would be the question


The OP I quoted is from 2008. I quoted it *not* because of the range, but the antenna coverage. 

The range in that OP does not even hold true for Legacy systems.

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## airomerix

aziqbal said:


> can we first go back to my original post #5732 and see what I wrote before this comparison between Erieye and ZDK-03 started ? who compared Erieye to ZDK-03, not me



Apologies. I tried making sense of where the conversation was headed. Hence I followed. 



> I clearly mentioned we should go for additional KJ-500 AWACS, then due to the ignorance of subsequent members including some seniors who simply didnt know what KJ-500 was or even heard of the KJ500 AWACS to make it simple for their own understanding they started comparison between Erieye vs ZDK-03 to avoid getting into a panic
> 
> so to clear what is the KJ-500 its NOT ZDK-03 its new generation of Chinese AWACSs based on the newer Y-9 platform not the Y-8 category III platform, even the platforms are different now are talking about a completely different AWACS
> 
> The KJ-500 is the result of the 38th institute and is a ASEA radar with full true 360 degree coverage, its Chinas first mass produced AWACS and is operational now with the Chinese Air Force and the Navy with probably between 20-30 units operational which is a very high number for AWACS production and production is in full swing right
> 
> there are some fair points which should be answered-
> 
> yes Erieye is using longitude radar for North South operations as such it could be better suited to geography and terrain of Northern Areas, but also KJ-500 was deployed to Tibet close to Doklam stand off in 2017 which means this AWACS can work in mountainous terrain also, there is satellite images for it
> 
> yes also Erieye can do sea surveillance and reconnaissance missions but so KJ-500 since it was also deployed to Fiery Cross Artificial reef in the Spratly islands in South China sea in 2018 there is satellite images for it also
> 
> yes Erieye has range but also new variant the KJ-500A has been spotted with IFR probe in 2018 also making it long endurance AWACS, working also with our Midas tankers



There is a fundamental problem with your entire narrative. 

The only credible information you have about KJ-500 is the following;

1) Chinese are using it. 
2) It is based on Y-9
3) It comes with IFR probe. 
4) It covers 360 degrees. 

Otherwise, there is absolutely no information on the actual capability of the aircraft (or even close) and I can see why. It is fairly new, which also means untested and hence unreliable for an Air Force like Pakistan that cannot afford risky investments. This is exactly one of the reasons why Pakistan went with Erieye due to variety reasons which did include SAAB's experience with quality defense products. 

Hence this huge hue and cry about KJ-500 is nothing but a fanboy attitude you earlier spoke of. 




> and finally with JF17 Block III ASEA and KJ-500 AESA it would be a game in terms of situational awareness both systems would work in synergy, as a matter of fact all F16+Erieye roles would be replaced with JF17 Block III + KJ-500 AWACS



I'm afraid it doesn't work this way. SAAB 2000 fully supports JF-17 and your proposal is nothing but a costly nightmare. JF-17s are/will be based at Kamra, Peshawar, Sargodha, Shorkot (soon), and Mianwali (soon), Quetta and Masroor. 

You are proposing a mix of SAAB 2000s and KJ-500's on bases to support different aircraft? How will training look like if we restrict SAAB's to F-16s and thunders to JF-17s? What happens when JF-17s and F-16s fly in formation? Who controls what? How will our mission controllers bring out their best training and fully understand who needs to 'look' where and 'shoot' where? What will IAF deduce when they see a KJ-500 flying alongside borders? That only JF-17s will be scrambling? 

What you're proposing also doesn't make sense because;

1) Kills fleet commonality further (Y-8, Y-9, SAAB 2000)
2) Does not bring any capability breakthrough over Erieye. 
3) Renders ZDK-03's redundant. Unless, ZDK-03's can be upgraded to the newer radar, it's a different story altogether and it might as well become a reality.

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## aziqbal

airomerix said:


> Otherwise, there is absolutely no information on the actual capability of the aircraft (or even close) and I can see why. It is fairly new, which also means untested and hence unreliable for an Air Force like Pakistan that cannot afford risky investments. This is exactly one of the reasons why Pakistan went with Erieye due to variety reasons which did include SAAB's experience with quality defense products.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Kills fleet commonality further (Y-8, Y-9, SAAB 2000)
> 2) Does not bring any capability breakthrough over Erieye.
> 3) Renders ZDK-03's redundant. Unless, ZDK-03's can be upgraded to the newer radar, it's a different story altogether and it might as well become a reality.



I did not call you a fanboy as your question was genuine question worthy of reply

first part I cannot reply since its not question about capability

remember the time PAF wanted Western ASEA on Block III they waited for Chinese since it brings same if not better capability than its Western counterparts with less strings, Chinese AESA is a very advanced platform

1- ZDK-03 and KJ-500 are not too dis-similar, yes dissimilar enough to be in a completely different category but last year one of our ZDK-03 was in China indicating that improved variant using the AESA KLC-7 was being developed by the 14th institute, this would mean we get 4 x rotating AESA with ZDK-03 + 4 x rotating AESA with KJ-500, now where is the commonality question

this also answers question 3 and reinforces that additional KJ-500 would be a great addition to JF17 Block III

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## Neptune

Scorpiooo said:


> Havasoj is i think turkish project, how you think Pakistan going to accure it, no news or interest show by Pakistan and i think its still in its testing phase, i think you may have some lead if you r saying so
> 
> 
> Is 3 D20 are enough for now ?



+ @Akh1112

There's a confusion here.

Hava-SOJ is not an early warning and command aircraft. It is an airborne stand-off jammer aircraft tasked to handle long-range electronic attack and electronic support duties. First aircraft will be delivered in 2022 or 2023.

Hava-SOJ:












For airborne early warning and command functions, Turkish Air Force uses the E-7T Peace Eagle, a Boeing 737 AEW&C aircraft fitted with a MESA radar. Surprisingly it is in use by four countries only: Turkey, UK, Australia and South Korea. Turkish Air Force has 4 planes in the inventory and after the F-16s and UCAVs, its the most actively used aircraft in combatant missions due to air campaigns in Iraq, Syria, Libya and Mediterranean.

E-7T:









E-7 AEW&C comparison with E-3 AWACS.

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## GriffinsRule

aziqbal said:


> I did not call you a fanboy as your question was genuine question worthy of reply
> 
> first part I cannot reply since its not question about capability
> 
> remember the time PAF wanted Western ASEA on Block III they waited for Chinese since it brings same if not better capability than its Western counterparts with less strings, Chinese AESA is a very advanced platform
> 
> 1- ZDK-03 and KJ-500 are not too dis-similar, yes dissimilar enough to be in a completely different category but last year one of our ZDK-03 was in China indicating that improved variant using the AESA KLC-7 was being developed by the 14th institute, this would mean we get 4 x rotating AESA with ZDK-03 + 4 x rotating AESA with KJ-500, now where is the commonality question
> 
> this also answers question 3 and reinforces that additional KJ-500 would be a great addition to JF17 Block III


Whats so special about KJ-500? Got any details you care to share about its radar?


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## airomerix

aziqbal said:


> I did not call you a fanboy as your question was genuine question worthy of reply



I was merely referring to your posts in the previous pages where you discarded opinions of other members with the pretext that they lack the understanding and hence they were fanboys. I know you did not call me that. You can if you'd like. I will not take offense.



> remember the time PAF wanted Western ASEA on Block III they waited for Chinese since it brings same if not better capability than its Western counterparts with less strings, Chinese AESA is a very advanced platform



I'm afraid this was not the case. We opted for Chinese because we had no other options in the stipulated budget. We had a good deal with French but it was pre-MRCA. Else we'd have a JF-17 Block 3 with Meteor.

Chinese AESA's are excellent no doubt. It's just a matter of what was made available to us.




> 1- ZDK-03 and KJ-500 are not too dis-similar, yes dissimilar enough to be in a completely different category but last year one of our ZDK-03 was in China indicating that improved variant using the AESA KLC-7 was being developed by the 14th institute, this would mean we get 4 x rotating AESA with ZDK-03 + 4 x *rotating AESA with KJ-500*, now where is the commonality question



No. The radome of KJ-500 doesn't rotate.

Which is actually a good thing because the lesser the mechanical function, the better (from wear and tear perspective)

However, you misunderstood the angle I was trying to show. By commonality, I did not mean 'rotating' radome or 'fixed' radome. I meant the induction and operations of Y-9 aircraft alongside Y-8 and SAAB 2000. The debate of the logistical effort of integrating a new radar system is a separate one. The induction of an aircraft is altogether a different thing.



> this also answers question 3 and reinforces that additional KJ-500 would be a great addition to JF17 Block III



No it does not.



GriffinsRule said:


> Whats so special about KJ-500? Got any details you care to share about its radar?



Even I'm curious. I'd like to know please.

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## aziqbal

Ok so let’s conclude this matter 

Erieye over ZDK-03 is fine 
Erieye over KJ-500 no 

why? Well I don’t need go into specifications I will leave it to your own judgement 

Not to mention KJ-500 has upgraded scope, commonality with future Chinese equipment like JY-27A Radar, Type 054AP, UAV, C41SR ands UCAVS there is a much bigger picture here more than just specifications


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## GriffinsRule

aziqbal said:


> Not to mention KJ-500 has upgraded scope, commonality with future Chinese equipment like JY-27A Radar, Type 054AP, UAV, C41SR ands UCAVS there is a much bigger picture here more than just specifications



Don't all of these apply to ZDK/K-3E as well?


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## Ultima Thule

aziqbal said:


> Not to mention KJ-500 has upgraded scope, commonality with future Chinese equipment like JY-27A Radar, Type 054AP, UAV, C41SR ands UCAVS there is a much bigger picture here more than just specifications


As @airomerix said JFT can be guided by our EriEye through INDIGENOUS Link-17 so why we need another Chinese AESA equipped AWACS specifically for Block-3???

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## Ultima Thule

aziqbal said:


> it was not personal nor degrading it was a simple statement based on facts
> 
> and you need to stop stalking me and get over what happened I dont have time for your tit for tat nudging


No why we will use KJ-500 if we have the capability to guide block-3, it will be extra burden on PAF, unless we will improve ZDK-3 with KJ-500 avionics and AESA its is the most cost effective way to increase our AESA equipped AWACS arsenal


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Ladies and gentlemen.

Let me reiterate, please do not engage in personal attacks.

Stick to the topic. If someone makes a claim, you can politely ask them to justify it with publicly available sources, and if that is not possible, please move on. Similarly, if someone does not want to accept your claims, remain polite and move on.

Time will tell who’s correct.

Thank you

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## Akh1112

Neptune said:


> + @Akh1112
> 
> There's a confusion here.
> 
> Hava-SOJ is not an early warning and command aircraft. It is an airborne stand-off jammer aircraft tasked to handle long-range electronic attack and electronic support duties. First aircraft will be delivered in 2022 or 2023.
> 
> Hava-SOJ:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For airborne early warning and command functions, Turkish Air Force uses the E-7T Peace Eagle, a Boeing 737 AEW&C aircraft fitted with a MESA radar. Surprisingly it is in use by four countries only: Turkey, UK, Australia and South Korea. Turkish Air Force has 4 planes in the inventory and after the F-16s and UCAVs, its the most actively used aircraft in combatant missions due to air campaigns in Iraq, Syria, Libya and Mediterranean.
> 
> E-7T:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-7 AEW&C comparison with E-3 AWACS.




Nope, no confusion, we got sidetracked and were discussing EW assets. Apologies

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## Trailer23

Neptune said:


>


The Test Pilot for the Royal Australian Air Force for the E-7 (Wedgetail) is (now) a Captain in our Airline. Flown with him a number of times. He loves the E-7.

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## Neptune

Trailer23 said:


> The Test Pilot for the Royal Australian Air Force for the E-7 (Wedgetail) is (now) a Captain in our Airline. Flown with him a number of times. He loves the E-7.



I think its a beautiful aircraft not only by looks but by its capabilities as well. After 2035, NATO plans to replace its E-3 Sentry AWACS fleet with E-7s too. Turkish government once was thinking of getting the "two more optional" aircraft orders in 2016. I wonder what happened to it. But for our country I think four is more than enough, including maritime surveillance missions too.



Akh1112 said:


> Nope, no confusion, we got sidetracked and were discussing EW assets. Apologies



Ops, sorry then my bad.


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## Trailer23

Neptune said:


> I think its a beautiful aircraft.


I have been inside Turkish Air Force during the 2010 or 2012 Air Show.

I also have 02 Medallion Coins of it from TAI/Boeing gifted one each to me & my wife.

I'm in middle of moving so all my stuff is packed up.

I'll attach images of it later.

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## Neptune

Trailer23 said:


> I have been inside Turkish Air Force during the 2010 or 2012 Air Show.
> 
> I also have 02 Medallion Coins of it from TAI/Boeing gifted one each to me & my wife.
> 
> I'm in middle of moving so all my stuff is packed up.
> 
> I'll attach images of it later.



Very glad to hear about this joyful encounter, thanks indeed. Stay safe

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## nomi007

*SE-057*


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## airomerix

Rare photos of damaged SAAB 2000 repair

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## ziaulislam

airomerix said:


> Apologies. I tried making sense of where the conversation was headed. Hence I followed.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a fundamental problem with your entire narrative.
> 
> The only credible information you have about KJ-500 is the following;
> 
> 1) Chinese are using it.
> 2) It is based on Y-9
> 3) It comes with IFR probe.
> 4) It covers 360 degrees.
> 
> Otherwise, there is absolutely no information on the actual capability of the aircraft (or even close) and I can see why. It is fairly new, which also means untested and hence unreliable for an Air Force like Pakistan that cannot afford risky investments. This is exactly one of the reasons why Pakistan went with Erieye due to variety reasons which did include SAAB's experience with quality defense products.
> 
> Hence this huge hue and cry about KJ-500 is nothing but a fanboy attitude you earlier spoke of.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid it doesn't work this way. SAAB 2000 fully supports JF-17 and your proposal is nothing but a costly nightmare. JF-17s are/will be based at Kamra, Peshawar, Sargodha, Shorkot (soon), and Mianwali (soon), Quetta and Masroor.
> 
> You are proposing a mix of SAAB 2000s and KJ-500's on bases to support different aircraft? How will training look like if we restrict SAAB's to F-16s and thunders to JF-17s? What happens when JF-17s and F-16s fly in formation? Who controls what? How will our mission controllers bring out their best training and fully understand who needs to 'look' where and 'shoot' where? What will IAF deduce when they see a KJ-500 flying alongside borders? That only JF-17s will be scrambling?
> 
> What you're proposing also doesn't make sense because;
> 
> 1) Kills fleet commonality further (Y-8, Y-9, SAAB 2000)
> 2) Does not bring any capability breakthrough over Erieye.
> 3) Renders ZDK-03's redundant. Unless, ZDK-03's can be upgraded to the newer radar, it's a different story altogether and it might as well become a reality.


So what are zdk-03 going to do in future ..completely move to the south to cover navy needs?
SAAB and jf17 can speak in same terms as f16 & saab or there is a intermediary between(ground substation?).


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## mingle

airomerix said:


> Rare photos of damaged SAAB 2000 repair
> 
> View attachment 636072
> View attachment 636073
> View attachment 636074
> View attachment 636075
> View attachment 636076
> View attachment 636077


Damage was quite extensive??? Pretty much gutted? Great work

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## Dazzler

This guy was seen in Greece yesterday, but that paint job looks all too familiar

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## kursed

Some of PAF ERIEYEs have a Seaspray radar underneath and some don't. So.. that does explain why some of them will find permanent base in South eventually and some up North.

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## SD 10

ziaulislam said:


> So what are zdk-03 going to do in future ..completely move to the south to cover navy needs?
> SAAB and jf17 can speak in same terms as f16 & saab or there is a intermediary between(ground substation?).


Someone mentioned (can't remember the name) That ZDK are better interms of maritime surveillance, so it might be a good idea to utilize them for navy's needs!


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## graphican

Apex said:


> Wait till the 30th of this month there's something coming.



Anything equally exciting on the horizons?

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## airomerix

mingle said:


> Damage was quite extensive??? Pretty much gutted? Great work



Quite alot to the airframe. Thankfully, the radar sets were saved on all 3 with a little damage.



ziaulislam said:


> So what are zdk-03 going to do in future ..completely move to the south to cover navy needs?
> SAAB and jf17 can speak in same terms as f16 & saab or there is a intermediary between(ground substation?).



There is no difference between JF-17 - Erieye and F-16. - Erieye datalink performance. Erieye's talk directly with the assets. There are no ground based mission controllers involved when AWACS is in the air (in a certain area)



SD 10 said:


> Someone mentioned (can't remember the name) That ZDK are better interms of maritime surveillance, so it might be a good idea to utilize them for navy's needs!



ZDK is not particularly 'better' compared to Erieye. There is no data on that. However, ZDK is not particularly good with high clutter terrain. Hence it's unsuitability for inland operations.

Alright folks, I've been reading a few things about PAF having 7 Erieye's after this addition. It's not true. Here is the breakdown.

*PAF's Ereieye fleet *

3 Survived from 2006 Order

2 of 3 Acquired from 2017 order. The remaining one is a passenger version. It is still flying without the radar set. 

2 more joining this year (including this one) 

This information is verified. I was at Chakala today (Evidence at PAF News thread)

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## Blacklight

Dazzler said:


> This guy was seen in Greece yesterday, but that paint job looks all too familiar


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/saab-2000-erieye-delivery-flight-to-paf-at-athens-27-05-2020.668393/


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## nomi007

11 or 12? but we have now a very good number of Saab aircrafts


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## araz

Dazzler said:


> This guy was seen in Greece yesterday, but that paint job looks all too familiar


@Dazzler abd @airomerix 
On a unrelated topic, there was talk of upgrading the ZDK03 from a PESA to an AESA like KLJ500. One of the ZDK03s was in China to be upgraded. Does anyone know and can mention on an open forum whether this has happened or not. Thanks in advance. With all due respects to both please dont respond in riddles. Either yes, No or dont want to say or dont know will do if you want to keep it to yourselves. If you can share info it will be appreciated
A

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## Blacklight

araz said:


> @Dazzler abd @airomerix
> On a unrelated topic, there was talk of upgrading the ZDK03 from a PESA to an AESA like KLJ500. One of the ZDK03s was in China to be upgraded. Does anyone know and can mention on an open forum whether this has happened or not. Thanks in advance. With all due respects to both please dont respond in riddles. Either yes, No or dont want to say or dont know will do if you want to keep it to yourselves. If you can share info it will be appreciated
> A

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## nomi007

*Saab 2000 AIRTRACER*






the best alternative for Falcon 20 now we have 5 extra saab 2000

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## Path-Finder

nomi007 said:


> *Saab 2000 AIRTRACER*
> View attachment 636184
> 
> 
> the best alternative for Falcon 20 now we have 5 extra saab 2000


That is why I said Pakistan should get as many Saab 2000 as possible to act as auxiliary aircraft as when needed. Plus the platform has the potential to be Pakistan's Stand Off Jammer.

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## Shah_Deu

Path-Finder said:


> That is why I said Pakistan should get as many Saab 2000 as possible to act as auxiliary aircraft as when needed. Plus the platform has the potential to be Pakistan's Stand Off Jammer.


If they were available, we could have used them with Navy as well for its MPA instead of using ATRs. Commonization saves a lot of cost. But maybe there were other considerations or the other jets were all tied up .

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## ziaulislam

Shah_Deu said:


> If they were available, we could have used them with Navy as well for its MPA instead of using ATRs. Commonization saves a lot of cost. But maybe there were other considerations or the other jets were all tied up .


You might be able to buy up the design(seeing it was not sold a lot, out of production, SAAB will probably have no hesitation in selling) if pakistan has apetite for it..avenues could be in PIA as well given saab unique design. It can act as a very good regional plan for PIA and meet some requirements of PAF/PA/PN ..but seems ATR will be mostly used for navy

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## Bossman

nomi007 said:


> *Saab 2000 AIRTRACER*
> View attachment 636184
> 
> 
> the best alternative for Falcon 20 now we have 5 extra saab 2000


There is difference between Sigint and a Jammer. Entirely different roles. PAF uses one of the C130s for Sigint.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


>


I can't believe it. Even after Upgrade, it doesn't won confidence of PAF

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## ziaulislam



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## Zarvan

Do we have the capability of buying a SAAB 2000 plane and than turn it into an Electronic Warfare Jet ??? @Tipu7

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## Path-Finder

Shah_Deu said:


> If they were available, we could have used them with Navy as well for its MPA instead of using ATRs. Commonization saves a lot of cost. But maybe there were other considerations or the other jets were all tied up .


I read somewhere that many aircraft are in storages in Europe. less than a 100 were built by saab and not many are flying so I assume getting a handful of aircraft shouldn't be difficult.

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## khanasifm

Path-Finder said:


> I read somewhere that many aircraft are in storages in Europe. less than a 100 were built by saab and not many are flying so I assume getting a handful of aircraft shouldn't be difficult.




Total 60 plus airframes
In the world for 2000 version


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## Path-Finder

khanasifm said:


> Total 60 plus airframes
> In the world for 2000 version


about 18 would be good for PAF.


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## Shah_Deu

Path-Finder said:


> about 18 would be good for PAF.


I think commonizing the platforms for all AEW&C, EW, MPA, VIP and other special operations across airforce, navy and army would result in considerable reduction in maintenance, support and manpower training costs over the long term. The CJCSC office could play a huge role in planning on these lines across the tri-services.

Additionally, the summing up of all orders in a package would be very attractive proposition for the sellers looking for a big order and this leverage alone could be used to negotiate the best products from the market.

I agree right now, when we have already invested so much in Saab 2000 platform, getting more such secondhand air frames from across the world is not a bad idea and could form a basis for our replacement programs for further MPA and EW assets at a marginal cost.

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## Blacklight

araz said:


> @Dazzler abd @airomerix
> On a unrelated topic, there was talk of upgrading the ZDK03 from a PESA to an AESA like KLJ500. One of the ZDK03s was in China to be upgraded. Does anyone know and can mention on an open forum whether this has happened or not. Thanks in advance. With all due respects to both please dont respond in riddles. Either yes, No or dont want to say or dont know will do if you want to keep it to yourselves. If you can share info it will be appreciated
> A


Seems no one wants to answer you on the KK Eagle. App ki khawihish sar ankhoon pay Sir. After this when clueless kids go apeshit, pls deal with them.

There were issues with it. Radar remains same, no change. Everything else has been upgraded.

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## Bilal.

Blacklight said:


> Seems no one wants to answer you on the KK Eagle. App ki khawihish sar ankhoon pay Sir. After this when clueless kids go apeshit, pls deal with them.
> 
> There were issues with it. Radar remains same, no change. Everything else has been upgraded.



Seems like Chinese Radar tech of 2000s were not mature technology. Issues have been hinted about ground based (YLC2 if I remember correctly) by members.

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## araz

Blacklight said:


> Seems no one wants to answer you on the KK Eagle. App ki khawihish sar ankhoon pay Sir. After this when clueless kids go apeshit, pls deal with them.
> 
> There were issues with it. Radar remains same, no change. Everything else has been upgraded.


Makes sense why PAF went for Erieyes.
A

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## Kingslayerr

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266291307967701001

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## SABRE

Path-Finder said:


> That is why I said Pakistan should get as many Saab 2000 as possible to act as auxiliary aircraft as when needed. Plus the platform has the potential to be Pakistan's Stand Off Jammer.



Should go for license production of SAAB 2000 at PAC. It might be a good replacement for ATRs in PIA and also other private airlines.


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## Yasser76

SABRE said:


> Should go for license production of SAAB 2000 at PAC. It might be a good replacement for ATRs in PIA and also other private airlines.



Why? Production has stopped, tools may not even be available anymore. Both types are around same age and performance. Lots of SAAB 2000s available on second hand market.

PAC better off making our own design, maybe getting European engines for it.


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## Path-Finder

SABRE said:


> Should go for license production of SAAB 2000 at PAC. It might be a good replacement for ATRs in PIA and also other private airlines.


ah no, that is not at all viable. There are less than 100 saab 2000 built 1992-97 and the reasons is that the demand for them was not high. The users who bought them have gradually removed them from service and they are mostly in storages. Pakistan can acquired many used craft for airframe. Since PAF repaired the Saab 2000 when saab itself said that it is a total write off means the capability to keep the fleet active without external input. As navy is now looking for a turbofan LRMPA they dont need Saab 2000 unless...

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## nomi007

Path-Finder said:


> ah no, that is not at all viable. There are less than 100 saab 2000 built 1992-97 and the reasons is that the demand for them was not high. The users who bought them have have gradually removed them from service and they are mostly in storages. Pakistan can acquired many used craft for airframe. Since PAF repaired the Saab 2000 when saab itself said that it is a total write off means the capability to keep the fleet active without external input. As navy is now looking for a turbofan LRMPA they dont need Saab 2000 unless...


any video on production facility?


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## Pakistani Fighter

Path-Finder said:


> turbofan LRMPA


Jet


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## SABRE

Path-Finder said:


> ah no, that is not at all viable. There are less than 100 saab 2000 built 1992-97 and the reasons is that the demand for them was not high. The users who bought them have have gradually removed them from service and they are mostly in storages. Pakistan can acquired many used craft for airframe. Since PAF repaired the Saab 2000 when saab itself said that it is a total write off means the capability to keep the fleet active without external input. As navy is now looking for a turbofan LRMPA they dont need Saab 2000 unless...



In that case, is it viable for PAF to be flying Erieye system on SAAB 2000?


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## Path-Finder

SABRE said:


> In that case, is it viable for PAF to be flying Erieye system on SAAB 2000?


why not, PAF did their homework and chose Saab 2000 because it fits their needs. After Pakistan Saudi's bought Saab 2000 configuration as well.



Pakistani Fighter said:


> Jet


Turbofan is part of the jet engine family! The jet will have Turbofan power plant

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## Scorpiooo

Why we totally want move all our stuff to 25 year old planes. If we can have some news jets as common plateform

Actually saying this bcuz, once PAC announced they want to have local production of small commercial jet for defence and commercial uses with help of china . So may be these can also use on future

https://www.pakdefense.com/blog/pak...ement-to-jointly-produce-commercial-aircraft/

https://bit.ly/3g4ziT8

*Look at this 10 jet by Pakistan by some unknow company, these are pre order even b4 production start plan is MA7000 (can hidden defense order aswell) and future local production for PAC*


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## Bossman

Hybrid Aviation is an Air Charter and Pilot training company out of Walton Airport Lahore. Seems they are planning a regional service to smaller towns.

MA7000 is not a jet but turboprop like the Saab. It might have limitations as a AEW&C aircraft because of its T tail configuration and shoulder mounted wings. The Saab’s have thirty years of life left in them.

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## Safriz

SABRE said:


> In that case, is it viable for PAF to be flying Erieye system on SAAB 2000?


700 USD per hour flight cost , Vs 2500 USD per hour for the Emberer.
Do the maths.

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## SABRE

Safriz said:


> 700 USD per hour flight cost , Vs 2500 USD per hour for the Emberer.
> Do the maths.



How much on Y-8 (ZDK-03)?


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## Bossman

I can just imagine the operating cost of the IL78 based Phalcon AWACs used by India. No wonder they only have three. I understand their loitering time is not impressive.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bossman said:


> I can just imagine the operating cost of the IL78 based Phalcon AWACs used by India. No wonder they only have three. I understand their loitering time is not impressive.


They're working to offset that with their in-house AEW&C, which they've integrated to the ERJ-145. I think they have several now, at least. In terms of materials, they're working to address their gaps, for sure.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bossman said:


> I can just imagine the operating cost of the IL78 based Phalcon AWACs used by India. No wonder they only have three. I understand their loitering time is not impressive.


Their range is impressive


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## Yasser76

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Their range is impressive



Issue they face is they put the system on a 4 engined old Russian design with old turbofans. Naturally this will make serviceability difficult. Same as if PAF put Erieyes system on C-130. Also every air force (apart from IAF) knows you need at least minimum of 4 jets to keep one airborne 24/7. Fascinating IAF did not order more then 3.

If you look at the overall picture, PAF has less then a third of the budget IAF has but has decided to make much more investment in AEW then IAF. Another factor in the differences between the two air forces...

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## Dil Pakistan




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## Path-Finder

I believe Pakistan should have a few Business Jet based Erieye too! For speedy assistance for deep strike package.

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## Dil Pakistan

Business Jet ? 

For example.....


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## Akh1112

Dil Pakistan said:


> Business Jet ?
> 
> For example.....



Global 6000, i.e the Globaleye suite, however i disagree with his comment



Path-Finder said:


> I believe Pakistan should have a few Business Jet based Erieye too! For speedy assistance for deep strike package.



They can do that just fine as is, why does it need to be BizJet based?

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## Path-Finder

Dil Pakistan said:


> Business Jet ?
> 
> For example.....


Brazil, Mexico, UAE and Greece has both Turboprop Saab 340 and Turbofan Embraer

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## Dil Pakistan

Path-Finder said:


> I believe Pakistan should have a few Business Jet based Erieye too! For speedy assistance for deep strike package.





Akh1112 said:


> Global 6000, i.e the Globaleye suite, however i disagree with his comment
> 
> 
> 
> They can do that just fine as is, why does it need to be BizJet based?



Well! my readings is that JF-17 - B-III is coming.

It will fill many gaps that currently exist: speed, agility, simultaneous weapon delivery (along with the SEAD / ELINT ability).



Path-Finder said:


> Brazil, Mexico, UAE and Greece has both Turboprop Saab 340 and Turbofan Embraer



Yes, but as this video mentioned, the system installed on Indian Embraer has 200-km range (Pakistan SAAB has 400-km range).
I am only guessing, but it may be difficult to install a bigger system on a smaller plane. --- I may be totally wrong.


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## Path-Finder

Akh1112 said:


> They can do that just fine as is, why does it need to be BizJet based?


Why Not! Speed is one, second its ferry range or Distance is vastly greater than Saab 2000 it will add 2-3k nm.



Dil Pakistan said:


> Well! my readings is that JF-17 - B-III is coming.
> 
> It will fill many gaps that currently exist: speed, agility, simultaneous weapon delivery.


fighter's don't fulfil the role of AEW&C, fighters are AEW&C dependent despite all the fancy gizmos. 



Dil Pakistan said:


> Yes, but as this video mentioned, the system installed on Indian Embraer has 200-km range (Pakistan SAAB has 400-km range).
> I only guessing, but it may be difficult to install a bigger system on a smaller plane. --- I may be totally wrong.


That is a difference of Radar BUT a faster aircraft can compensate for it! it can get out of harm's way faster than a turboprop can.

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## Dil Pakistan

Is the German plane, that PAF recently received, LRMTP, jet propelled (rather than turbo-prop)


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## Akh1112

Path-Finder said:


> Why Not! Speed is one, second its ferry range or Distance is vastly greater than Saab 2000 it will add 2-3k nm.
> 
> 
> fighter's don't fulfil the role of AEW&C, fighters are AEW&C dependent despite all the fancy gizmos.
> 
> 
> That is a difference of Radar BUT a faster aircraft can compensate for it! it can get out of harm's way faster than a turboprop can.




But why do we need that much range? The PAF would just be spending on stuff it doesnt need at that point, we are a TINY country, the Erieye could even provide border to border surveillance at some parts


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## Path-Finder

Akh1112 said:


> But why do we need that much range? The PAF would just be spending on stuff it doesnt need at that point, we are a TINY country, the Erieye could even provide border to border surveillance at some parts


You are Not grasping the bigger picture! All the current fleet is for defensive purposes so Saab 2000 makes sense as it will not venture beyond the border! BUT if there is a need for greater range with speed for a mission requirement where the aircraft must go beyond the borders into hostile territory! do you take slow less range Turboprop? or are you going to take an aircraft with speed and range on its side?

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## syed_yusuf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They're working to offset that with their in-house AEW&C, which they've integrated to the ERJ-145. I think they have several now, at least. In terms of materials, they're working to address their gaps, for sure.


U mean to say netra system

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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> Issue they face is they put the system on a 4 engined old Russian design with old turbofans. Naturally this will make serviceability difficult. Same as if PAF put Erieyes system on C-130. Also every air force (apart from IAF) knows you need at least minimum of 4 jets to keep one airborne 24/7. Fascinating IAF did not order more then 3.
> 
> If you look at the overall picture, PAF has less then a third of the budget IAF has but has decided to make much more investment in AEW then IAF. Another factor in the differences between the two air forces...


They are adding 3 more at....2+b$..on plateform that is notorious for poor availability ..


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## Pakistani Fighter

ziaulislam said:


> They are adding 3 more at....2+b$..on plateform that is notorious for poor availability ..


They are adding Netra tpp


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## GriffinsRule

Path-Finder said:


> Why Not! Speed is one, second its ferry range or Distance is vastly greater than Saab 2000 it will add 2-3k nm.
> 
> 
> fighter's don't fulfil the role of AEW&C, fighters are AEW&C dependent despite all the fancy gizmos.
> 
> 
> That is a difference of Radar BUT a faster aircraft can compensate for it! it can get out of harm's way faster than a turboprop can.


Speed does not mean anything as when the Embraer or any other biz jet is in operation as an AWACS its speed is the same as that of the Saab 2000 or any other propeller driven aircraft. The only benefit of the speed is thus just the ingress to the station and flying back to base, neither of which are that important given Pakistans geography and the number of platforms available to PAF


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## Path-Finder

GriffinsRule said:


> Speed does not mean anything as when the Embraer or any other biz jet is in operation as an AWACS its speed is the same as that of the Saab 2000 or any other propeller driven aircraft. The only benefit of the speed is thus just the ingress to the station and flying back to base, neither of which are that important given Pakistans geography and the number of platforms available to PAF


hmmn, ok what about the extended range?


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## GriffinsRule

Path-Finder said:


> You are Not grasping the bigger picture! All the current fleet is for defensive purposes so Saab 2000 makes sense as it will not venture beyond the border! BUT if there is a need for greater range with speed for a mission requirement where the aircraft must go beyond the borders into hostile territory! do you take slow less range Turboprop? or are you going to take an aircraft with speed and range on its side?


We will also never see Saab flying inside Indian airspace as PAF does not have the capability to achieve air superiority over IAF. And even when our fighters would find themselves over India, Erieye has enough range to stay withing Pakistan and still provide battle space information to them.



Path-Finder said:


> hmmn, ok what about the extended range?


Not that useful in PAF. Maybe if we had fewer aircraft, time on station would have been more critical, but with almost a dozen AWACS, its not that important


----------



## Path-Finder

GriffinsRule said:


> We will also never see Saab flying inside Indian airspace as PAF does not have the capability to achieve air superiority over IAF. And even when our fighters would find themselves over India, Erieye has enough range to stay withing Pakistan and still provide battle space information to them.


I did say slower turbo prop is not going to leave the territory! BUT if the mission requirement needs AEW&C to assist away from your territory and lets not write out the possibility of this happening. war is a fluid situation. 


GriffinsRule said:


> Not that useful in PAF. Maybe if we had fewer aircraft, time on station would have been more critical, but with almost a dozen AWACS, its not that important


speed and extended range or in case of Saab 2k a jet will more than double the range and possibility that air refueling could be added to business jet as well! in an ideal world you will take the extra range and speed where PAF had to settle for the most cost effective due to economics!


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## Dazzler

araz said:


> @Dazzler abd @airomerix
> On a unrelated topic, there was talk of upgrading the ZDK03 from a PESA to an AESA like KLJ500. One of the ZDK03s was in China to be upgraded. Does anyone know and can mention on an open forum whether this has happened or not. Thanks in advance. With all due respects to both please dont respond in riddles. Either yes, No or dont want to say or dont know will do if you want to keep it to yourselves. If you can share info it will be appreciated
> A



At least one zdk is being upgraded in China. Two side aesa in rotodome. Has Klc-7 B&R Eye radar.

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## araz

Dazzler said:


> At least one zdk is being upgraded in China. Two side aesa in rotodome. Has Klc-7 B&R Eye radar.


Taking a long time. Have there been problems with integration or reluctance to do so instead pushing newer platforms?

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## aziqbal

Dazzler said:


> At least one zdk is being upgraded in China. Two side aesa in rotodome. Has Klc-7 B&R Eye radar.



Yes and its rumoured to be the same radar which will be used on the KJ-600 Carrier Based AWACS for the Chinese Navy 

and actually the KJ-600 is nothing short of a space programme, very few countries manage to build a carrier based AWACS, even the British failed and so did the French, the Soviet Union kind of got there with An-71 but the carrier never materialised, putting a radar on top of a small aircraft and landing and take from a ship at sea is a top tier request 

Only USN has mastered the Carrier AWACS and next will be China and Chinese AWACS programmes are marching forward at a very fast pace 



araz said:


> Taking a long time. Have there been problems with integration or reluctance to do so instead pushing newer platforms?



PAF ordered a custom built AWACS in 2006 from China, maybe not custom built but PAF worked very closely with CFTE to develop the ZDK-03, it was a first attempt and first unit was delivered in 2011 and last one in 2015 it was a decade in the making, AWACS are sophisticated platforms and newer ASEA systems are very advanced and China only really mastered this field in the last 10 years, as such it takes time I would be surprised if it takes another few years to complete the upgrade process

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## araz

aziqbal said:


> Yes and its rumoured to be the same radar which will be used on the KJ-600 Carrier Based AWACS for the Chinese Navy
> 
> and actually the KJ-600 is nothing short of a space programme, very few countries manage to build a carrier based AWACS, even the British failed and so did the French, the Soviet Union kind of got there with An-71 but the carrier never materialised, putting a radar on top of a small aircraft and landing and take from a ship at sea is a top tier request
> 
> Only USN has mastered the Carrier AWACS and next will be China and Chinese AWACS programmes are marching forward at a very fast pace
> 
> 
> 
> PAF ordered a custom built AWACS in 2006 from China, maybe not custom built but PAF worked very closely with CFTE to develop the ZDK-03, it was a first attempt and first unit was delivered in 2011 and last one in 2015 it was a decade in the making, AWACS are sophisticated platforms and newer ASEA systems are very advanced and China only really mastered this field in the last 10 years, as such it takes time I would be surprised if it takes another few years to complete the upgrade process


ASAK.
Thank you both @Dazzler and @aziqbal also @Raven for your responses. I understand the complexity of the upgrade process involving the ZDK03. However it has been 2 to 3 years and one wonders if the integration process has hit some snags. Irrespective once the baseline model is retrofitted the upgrade of the other 3 will proceed quickly. I suspect that the ZDK03 is still in China for upgrades and PAF has not sent others over which means what ever the upgrade and its complexities are have not yet been resolved. As long as PAF has technicians involved in the process the learning itself will be worth the wait.
Regards
A

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## Myth_buster_1

araz said:


> ASAK.
> Thank you both @Dazzler and @aziqbal also @Raven for your responses. I understand the complexity of the upgrade process involving the ZDK03. However it has been 2 to 3 years and one wonders if the integration process has hit some snags. Irrespective once the baseline model is retrofitted the upgrade of the other 3 will proceed quickly. I suspect that the ZDK03 is still in China for upgrades and PAF has not sent others over which means what ever the upgrade and its complexities are have not yet been resolved. As long as PAF has technicians involved in the process the learning itself will be worth the wait.
> Regards
> A



Please do know that most of deals between PAK and China are not disclosed to public so its true capabilities are hidden from opponents.

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## nomi007



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## Path-Finder

I wonder If RAF Sentinel has a role in Pakistan.

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## Scorpiooo

Path-Finder said:


> I wonder If RAF Sentinel has a role in Pakistan.


How ?


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## Path-Finder

Scorpiooo said:


> How ?


The video explains the role pretty well!


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## Path-Finder




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## fatman17

*Saab Secures Another Erieye Customer*
By
David Oliver
-
June 2, 2020




Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C.

_*Saab has signed a contract and received an order for the Airborne Early Warning and Control solution Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control).* _



The order value is $164 million (1.553 billion SEK) and deliveries will be made between 2020 and 2023. Saab has said that due to circumstances concerning the product and customer, further information about the customer will not be announced.

*The Saab 2000 Erieye*
The Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C system has multi-role and multi-mission capabilities for both military and civil needs. It is based on the Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with Saab’s airborne radar Erieye and a range of other sensors. The lightweight design allows Erieye to be integrated on medium-size commuter-type aircraft, like the Saab 2000 turboprop.

The solution gives the user detailed situational awareness and can be used for tasks including border surveillance and search-and-rescue operations. Flying at high altitude, Erieye covers a much wider area than a conventional ground-based sensor system. The effective surveillance area is over 500,000 square kilometres horizontally and over 60,000 feet vertically. Sea coverage is only limited by the horizon and everything from fighter aircraft, hovering helicopters, cruise missiles and jet ski-sized sea targets can be detected and tracked.

*The Radar*
The radar is based on Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) technology, enabling the radar energy to be adjusted according to the situation – it can be used over an extensive area or concentrated within a smaller prioritised area. The radar detects and tracks objects quickly with high precision and a high update rate. S-band technology ensures top performance in all weather conditions. The extensive COM suite secures communication with participating assets and other control centres, on the ground or in the air.

The Pakistan Air Force operates six Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C aircraft and the Royal Saudi Air Force two. Saab will carry out the work in Gothenburg, Järfälla, Linköping, Luleå and Arboga, Sweden.

_by David Oliver_

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## Armchair

Saw some interesting information about the Saab 2000 and also saw a post on PDF by a senior thinking it would be a good idea if Pak bought the rights to the aircraft and produced them. 

There are about 60 Saab 2000 in total in the world. Perhaps Pakistan could buy these and they would have a low cost aircraft for PIA to fly. 

According to this interesting thread:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=361233

Saab 200 was ahead of its time, had better fuel economy than rivals but cost a lot due to Swedish labor costs and Saab overpricing. They are not only more fuel efficient but also cost less to operate due to lower maintenance costs. 

The link also suggests that Saab 2000 came at the wrong time - with low fuel costs of the era making fuel efficiency less of a factor. If Pak can produce this aircraft, it just may be a massive entry point for Pakistan into the aircraft manufacturing game. 

An interesting idea would be to use the high altitude capability of the Saab 2000 to have direct flights from Karachi, Lahore, Dubai, Doha, Jeddah, Kuwait City, Istanbul - directly to Skardu and thus create an alternative to Switzerland for tourists of the region. 


Another interesting thread about the Saab 2000: 
https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/10425-saab-2000-info.html

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## araz

Armchair said:


> Saw some interesting information about the Saab 2000 and also saw a post on PDF by a senior thinking it would be a good idea if Pak bought the rights to the aircraft and produced them.
> 
> There are about 60 Saab 2000 in total in the world. Perhaps Pakistan could buy these and they would have a low cost aircraft for PIA to fly.
> 
> According to this interesting thread:
> https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=361233
> 
> Saab 200 was ahead of its time, had better fuel economy than rivals but cost a lot due to Swedish labor costs and Saab overpricing. They are not only more fuel efficient but also cost less to operate due to lower maintenance costs.
> 
> The link also suggests that Saab 2000 came at the wrong time - with low fuel costs of the era making fuel efficiency less of a factor. If Pak can produce this aircraft, it just may be a massive entry point for Pakistan into the aircraft manufacturing game.
> 
> An interesting idea would be to use the high altitude capability of the Saab 2000 to have direct flights from Karachi, Lahore, Dubai, Doha, Jeddah, Kuwait City, Istanbul - directly to Skardu and thus create an alternative to Switzerland for tourists of the region.
> 
> 
> Another interesting thread about the Saab 2000:
> https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/10425-saab-2000-info.html


The only concern will be the engine. As soon as you enter a market you become a threat and what may have been freely available to you becomes a tool to control you. So we need to ensure we have suitable engine before we can go down that route.
A

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## Armchair

araz said:


> The only concern will be the engine. As soon as you enter a market you become a threat and what may have been freely available to you becomes a tool to control you. So we need to ensure we have a suitable engine before we can go down that route.
> A



Hi Araz, engines are not a problem. The competition is Bombardier and Embraer mainly. Even if you tag in Airbus and Boeing into the mix, all players use engines from RR and GE without issue. This is how the regional jet market is structured - engines aren't an issue they have to strategically contend with. 

If you can build the Saab 2000 or a close derivative - your main entry barrier is marketing and oil prices.

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## vizier

Another alternative is tethered airborne radar system similar to the one below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JLENS

Several advantages are:

* can stay above for 30 days
* can cover similar amount of airspace with other awacs. If used for early warning with its VHF radar part to direct interceptors but not fire control the costs can be even reduced. Stealthy targets can't be tracked that long range anyway so vhf radar early warning option would be mostly enough.
* enemy air to air options are somewhat limited than against fixed wing awacs which also have a large infrared signature other than radar cross section. Not only the similar long range coverage of about 500km range which is more than most air to air missiles the balloon is also a cheap object and flies about 3000 m tethered to the ground. Decoy smaller ballons with similar radar cross sections having more radar reflective parts like aliminum can be positioned next to the original radar balloon. 
* more difficult for enemy sead to locate-triangulate the exact position of the balloon passively since the emitter is higher than the ground. Somewhat like the giraffe radars but much higher ofcourse.

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## Bossman

vizier said:


> Another alternative is tethered airborne radar system similar to the one below
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JLENS
> 
> Several advantages are:
> 
> * can stay above for 30 days
> * can cover similar amount of airspace with other awacs. If used for early warning with its VHF radar part to direct interceptors but not fire control the costs can be even reduced. Stealthy targets can't be tracked that long range anyway so vhf radar early warning option would be mostly enough.
> * enemy air to air options are somewhat limited than against fixed wing awacs which also have a large infrared signature other than radar cross section. Not only the similar long range coverage of about 500km range which is more than most air to air missiles the balloon is also a cheap object and flies about 3000 m tethered to the ground. Decoy smaller ballons with similar radar cross sections having more radar reflective parts like aliminum can be positioned next to the original radar balloon.
> * more difficult for enemy sead to locate-triangulate the exact position of the balloon passively since the emitter is higher than the ground. Somewhat like the giraffe radars but much higher ofcourse.


Pakistan tried to get them from the US but failed. India got them from Israel and one of them is deployed near Bhuj close to Pakistan border.

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## GriffinsRule

Bossman said:


> Pakistan tried to get them from the US but failed. India got them from Israel and one of them is deployed near Bhuj close to Pakistan border.


Pretty sure Pakistan turned those down after testing them out. They were offered to Pakistan as an alternative to AWACS and are shitty systems.

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## Tamiyah

GriffinsRule said:


> Pretty sure Pakistan turned those down after testing them out. They were offered to Pakistan as an alternative to AWACS and are shitty systems.


Pakistan do use aerostat but I don't know the type of it.

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## Thorough Pro

In the eighties during the Soviet-Afghan war, Pakistan asked for E3 Sentry (AWACS ) but the US instead offered E2C Hawkeye (carrier-based) version. Pakistan should have gone for it because in those times there were only a couple of countries operating such aircraft. The acquisition (heavily financed by the US due to Soviet-Afghan war) would have propelled PAF into a new dimension way ahead of any other airforce in the region and that knowledge and experience would have done wonders for Pakistan as well as the Chinese aviation industry.

Looking back, I think that was a big mistake by PAF to reject them. 




GriffinsRule said:


> Pretty sure Pakistan turned those down after testing them out. They were offered to Pakistan as an alternative to AWACS and are shitty systems.

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## vizier

GriffinsRule said:


> Pretty sure Pakistan turned those down after testing them out. They were offered to Pakistan as an alternative to AWACS and are shitty systems.



Every system might have its merits and shortcomings. The blimp is 24/7 online for 30 days as an eye in the sky whereas awacs is mostly online in an alert situation. Awacs is more costly for continious survaillance. Awacs may be more accurate though with a higher performance radar. Blimps reaction time is close to 0 because of continious survaillance and unlike ground radar it can detect low flying targets as well. It can alert your awacs to take off and coordinate a better attack or alert or even guide ground ad systems for protection against an incoming cruise missile attack. Next time india will probably not risk its aircraft but use stand off bombs or cruise missiles from its airspace to escalate the situation. Maybe a joint venture with allies like Turkey and China might be off better use for this type of a system rather than the Usa system which was just an example.

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## Caprxl

vizier said:


> Another alternative is tethered airborne radar system similar to the one below
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JLENS
> 
> Several advantages are:
> 
> * can stay above for 30 days
> * can cover similar amount of airspace with other awacs. If used for early warning with its VHF radar part to direct interceptors but not fire control the costs can be even reduced. Stealthy targets can't be tracked that long range anyway so vhf radar early warning option would be mostly enough.
> * enemy air to air options are somewhat limited than against fixed wing awacs which also have a large infrared signature other than radar cross section. Not only the similar long range coverage of about 500km range which is more than most air to air missiles the balloon is also a cheap object and flies about 3000 m tethered to the ground. Decoy smaller ballons with similar radar cross sections having more radar reflective parts like aliminum can be positioned next to the original radar balloon.
> * more difficult for enemy sead to locate-triangulate the exact position of the balloon passively since the emitter is higher than the ground. Somewhat like the giraffe radars but much higher ofcourse.





GriffinsRule said:


> Pretty sure Pakistan turned those down after testing them out. They were offered to Pakistan as an alternative to AWACS and are shitty systems.





vizier said:


> Every system might have its merits and shortcomings. The blimp is 24/7 online for 30 days as an eye in the sky whereas awacs is mostly online in an alert situation. Awacs is more costly for continious survaillance. Awacs may be more accurate though with a higher performance radar. Blimps reaction time is close to 0 because of continious survaillance and unlike ground radar it can detect low flying targets as well. It can alert your awacs to take off and coordinate a better attack or alert or even guide ground ad systems for protection against an incoming cruise missile attack. Next time india will probably not risk its aircraft but use stand off bombs or cruise missiles from its airspace to escalate the situation. Maybe a joint venture with allies like Turkey and China might be off better use for this type of a system rather than the Usa system which was just an example.



@Blacklight 
Informative read.. , If you know what I mean

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## Bossman

vizier said:


> Every system might have its merits and shortcomings. The blimp is 24/7 online for 30 days as an eye in the sky whereas awacs is mostly online in an alert situation. Awacs is more costly for continious survaillance. Awacs may be more accurate though with a higher performance radar. Blimps reaction time is close to 0 because of continious survaillance and unlike ground radar it can detect low flying targets as well. It can alert your awacs to take off and coordinate a better attack or alert or even guide ground ad systems for protection against an incoming cruise missile attack. Next time india will probably not risk its aircraft but use stand off bombs or cruise missiles from its airspace to escalate the situation. Maybe a joint venture with allies like Turkey and China might be off better use for this type of a system rather than the Usa system which was just an example.


Has its pluses and minuses but it is not an alternate for airborne systems. It could complement them as an additional node.

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## Safriz

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274052527659667456

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## TheTallGuy

I adding up the figures..
we are receiving new Saab 2000 with Erieye 3 or 5?


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## fatman17

Saab awacs

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> Saab awacs
> View attachment 652210


do you have indian awacs inside images?

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## fatman17

No


nomi007 said:


> do you have indian awacs inside images?


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## Lord Of Gondor

nomi007 said:


> do you have indian awacs inside images?


FF to around 3:15ish


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## Amaa'n

nomi007 said:


> do you have indian awacs inside images?


please post this in appropriate thread in IDF section

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## BHarwana



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## Incog_nito

Any possibility of converting some C-130s or P-3C Orions into AEW&Cs?
As US AEW&Cs technology is also quite good in every term.

PS: Pakistan now pays to the US for everything it buys from the US.


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## _NOBODY_

I read somewhere on this forum that PAF was not too happy with ZDK-03 so are their any plans on upgrading them or is PAF ok with them?
@Quwa @araz @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## araz

_NOBODY_ said:


> I read somewhere on this forum that PAF was not too happy with ZDK-03 so are their any plans on upgrading them or is PAF ok with them?
> @Quwa @araz @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Bhai.
I am a novice compared to the big names you have mentioned. Stalwarts like @Bilal Khan 777 should be enough to answer your question. Iam a nobody in front of these knowledgeable people.
A

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## ghazi52



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## Safriz

ghazi52 said:


>


So the picture description says this is the eagle number 3.
Well 3 ZDK confirm now

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## Bilal Khan 777

_NOBODY_ said:


> I read somewhere on this forum that PAF was not too happy with ZDK-03 so are their any plans on upgrading them or is PAF ok with them?
> @Quwa @araz @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



ZDK-3 is fully operational and serviceable and deployed in operational Sqn. It was decided to opt for this platform to keep independence from one AW&C supplier. The said platform is doing well both for air and maritime defence. The rumors are just rumors.

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## _NOBODY_

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> ZDK-3 is fully operational and serviceable and deployed in operational Sqn. It was decided to opt for this platform to keep independence from one AW&C supplier. The said platform is doing well both for air and maritime defence. The rumors are just rumors.


Good to know and Eid mubarak to you sir. Have a blessed day.

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## Ali_Baba

_NOBODY_ said:


> I read somewhere on this forum that PAF was not too happy with ZDK-03 so are their any plans on upgrading them or is PAF ok with them?
> @Quwa @araz @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



Rubbish. The ZDK-3 was deployed as part of Swift Retort alongside the Erieye to keep an eye on Indian airspace during that operation. They would not have done that if they did not think it was capable...

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## araz

Ali_Baba said:


> Rubbish. The ZDK-3 was deployed as part of Swift Retort alongside the Erieye to keep an eye on Indian airspace during that operation. They would not have done that if they did not think it was capable...


A question was asked. Could have been responded to without the "rubbish" bit. Please dont discourage people from asking questions. We all come here to learn
Thank you
A

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## Readerdefence

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> ZDK-3 is fully operational and serviceable and deployed in operational Sqn. It was decided to opt for this platform to keep independence from one AW&C supplier. The said platform is doing well both for air and maritime defence. The rumors are just rumors.


Hi sir sorry to be a knob is it possible to integrate Chinese VLAAM or PL15 kind of missiles on these planes so they can guide those missiles through their own radars 
If possible to answer to answer 
Thank you


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## araz

Readerdefence said:


> Hi sir sorry to be a knob is it possible to integrate Chinese VLAAM or PL15 kind of missiles on these planes so they can guide those missiles through their own radars
> If possible to answer to answer
> Thank you


I dont think these planes are designed to have ordinance stuck on them. However, whetjer they can help guide a plane to the target is something @Bilal Khan 777 maybe able to answer

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## Bilal Khan 777

Readerdefence said:


> Hi sir sorry to be a knob is it possible to integrate Chinese VLAAM or PL15 kind of missiles on these planes so they can guide those missiles through their own radars
> If possible to answer to answer
> Thank you



EW aircraft, and specifically AW&C's role is not to carry ordnance but to stay at standoff distance and provide data to netted forces.

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## TheDarkKnight

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> EW aircraft, and specifically AW&C's role is not to carry ordnance but to stay at standoff distance and provide data to netted forces.


I think what he meant was that can these AWACS provide active guidance to BVR missiles of other PAF aircrafts such as JF17 or F16?

For example JF17 locks on enemy jets and fires BVRs, and once fired turns radar off or flees away with awacs guiding the missiles to target. In another case can the fighter jets keep their radars off and fire missiles just based on data provided to them by other ground based and airborne assets? I hope these questions were not too sensitive or specific for PAF capabilities ( if they are please ignore the questions).

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## Bilal Khan 777

TheDarkKnight said:


> I think what he meant was that can these AWACS provide active guidance to BVR missiles of other PAF aircrafts such as JF17 or F16?
> 
> For example JF17 locks on enemy jets and fires BVRs, and once fired turns radar off or flees away with awacs guiding the missiles to target. In another case can the fighter jets keep their radars off and fire missiles just based on data provided to them by other ground based and airborne assets? I hope these questions were not too sensitive or specific for PAF capabilities ( if they are please ignore the questions).



I know exactly what he meant. I am unable to discuss this subject.

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## TheDarkKnight

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I know exactly what he meant. I am unable to discuss this subject.


Understood.

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## GriffinsRule

TheDarkKnight said:


> I think what he meant was that can these AWACS provide active guidance to BVR missiles of other PAF aircrafts such as JF17 or F16?
> 
> For example JF17 locks on enemy jets and fires BVRs, and once fired turns radar off or flees away with awacs guiding the missiles to target. In another case can the fighter jets keep their radars off and fire missiles just based on data provided to them by other ground based and airborne assets? I hope these questions were not too sensitive or specific for PAF capabilities ( if they are please ignore the questions).


It can not. There's a difference between a search radar and a fire control radar

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## Aamir Hussain

Maybe the answer lies in the difference between AEW (Airborne Early Warning) & AWACS (Airborne Early Warning and Control System). Erieye is an AWACS! The rest we leave it to the imagination and open source info available on the net!

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## GriffinsRule

Aamir Hussain said:


> Maybe the answer lies in the difference between AEW (Airborne Early Warning) & AWACS (Airborne Early Warning and Control System). Erieye is an AWACS! The rest we leave it to the imagination and open source info available on the net!


Control here does not imply controlling and directing AA missiles but ability to act as a command and control node, similar to a ground based air traffic control in a sense. Its controlling airspace and directing fighters and other assets. No need to spread misinformation about guiding missiles etc as is being implied here.

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## Aamir Hussain

GriffinsRule said:


> Control here does not imply controlling and directing AA missiles but ability to act as a command and control node, similar to a ground based air traffic control in a sense. Its controlling airspace and directing fighters and other assets. No need to spread misinformation about guiding missiles etc as is being implied here.



No misinformation spread! Asked people to look for open source info. which has tons of info. on beyond just CnC node.

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## SQ8

TheDarkKnight said:


> I think what he meant was that can these AWACS provide active guidance to BVR missiles of other PAF aircrafts such as JF17 or F16?
> 
> For example JF17 locks on enemy jets and fires BVRs, and once fired turns radar off or flees away with awacs guiding the missiles to target. In another case can the fighter jets keep their radars off and fire missiles just based on data provided to them by other ground based and airborne assets? I hope these questions were not too sensitive or specific for PAF capabilities ( if they are please ignore the questions).


The USSR had gamed using its Moss AEW systems with datalinks to a theoretical missile to be used for the Tu-128. A lot of issues were encountered including the handoff of the weapon from the Tu-128 to the AEW system.
Once the instructions were sent, the AEW controller would transmit instructions to the Tu-128 intercept computer which would automatically fly the aircraft to the required intercept launch zone and provide authorization to launch weapons at target.

That being said, those were days of vacuum tubes and today everything is miniaturized solid state digital systems.

So now, think of a PL-15 with a two way datalink and the ZDK needing the ability to use beam sharpening to lock onto a target at 200miles out - then a weapons commander using a trackball to select a target and then the system automatically suggests a shooter based upon datalink parameters knowing an airborne JF-17’s fuel state, weapons status and distance; after which the said aircraft gets an encoded text message with intercept instructions.

For e.g the following fictional scenario could occur.
PAF AD Network detects targets - relays to command - gets authorization and the airborne commander on a ZDK gets permission to engage.
The Commander sends the following encrypted message to a JF.
THUNDER 1 - INT TSK -2 TRGT BLSEYE 033 FOR FL015 - INIT HDG 060 HNDOF LNCH - EXEC

the pilot of the aircraft flies to the point required with emissions off and possibly with additional instructions sent via AWACS to ensure minimum exposure to enemy detection systems.

Once within the launch parameters of the PL-15... lets say 100km; the ZDK starts painting the target and locks on - the JF-17 still undetected as such and green lights the pilot to launch. The datalinks synced, the pilot confirms all green, presses a button and goes defensive.
60 seconds to impact - The PL-15(s) are off the rail and on their way, the enemy is aware it is being painted and starts defending as the missile is guided - the Jf-17 meanwhile gets new instructions to reposition itself for either a second launch or to paint the target and guide the PL-15 if needed since now it is close enough to catch the target via its onboard radar.

The enemy aircraft is jamming now and the lock from the ZDk breaks but a cue is now sent to the JF - 25 seconds to impact- its radar lights up and now suddenly the target is being painted again and the PL-15 gets a refreshed track - 7 seconds to impact- the PL-15 goes pitbull and the JF is beaming and pulling away - the jamming from the target now actually guiding the missile home.
2 seconds to impact - the fuzes are about to engage on the initial warheads - the ZDK has pulled away on its race track and more assets are airborne with other missiles - the target realizes it may have to drink tea.

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## TheDarkKnight

SQ8 said:


> The USSR had gamed using its Moss AEW systems with datalinks to a theoretical missile to be used for the Tu-128. A lot of issues were encountered including the handoff of the weapon from the Tu-128 to the AEW system.
> Once the instructions were sent, the AEW controller would transmit instructions to the Tu-128 intercept computer which would automatically fly the aircraft to the required intercept launch zone and provide authorization to launch weapons at target.
> 
> That being said, those were days of vacuum tubes and today everything is miniaturized solid state digital systems.
> 
> So now, think of a PL-15 with a two way datalink and the ZDK needing the ability to use beam sharpening to lock onto a target at 200miles out - then a weapons commander using a trackball to select a target and then the system automatically suggests a shooter based upon datalink parameters knowing an airborne JF-17’s fuel state, weapons status and distance; after which the said aircraft gets an encoded text message with intercept instructions.
> 
> For e.g the following fictional scenario could occur.
> PAF AD Network detects targets - relays to command - gets authorization and the airborne commander on a ZDK gets permission to engage.
> The Commander sends the following encrypted message to a JF.
> THUNDER 1 - INT TSK -2 TRGT BLSEYE 033 FOR FL015 - INIT HDG 060 HNDOF LNCH - EXEC
> 
> the pilot of the aircraft flies to the point required with emissions off and possibly with additional instructions sent via AWACS to ensure minimum exposure to enemy detection systems.
> 
> Once within the launch parameters of the PL-15... lets say 100km; the ZDK starts painting the target and locks on - the JF-17 still undetected as such and green lights the pilot to launch. The datalinks synced, the pilot confirms all green, presses a button and goes defensive.
> 60 seconds to impact - The PL-15(s) are off the rail and on their way, the enemy is aware it is being painted and starts defending as the missile is guided - the Jf-17 meanwhile gets new instructions to reposition itself for either a second launch or to paint the target and guide the PL-15 if needed since now it is close enough to catch the target via its onboard radar.
> 
> The enemy aircraft is jamming now and the lock from the ZDk breaks but a cue is now sent to the JF - 25 seconds to impact- its radar lights up and now suddenly the target is being painted again and the PL-15 gets a refreshed track - 7 seconds to impact- the PL-15 goes pitbull and the JF is beaming and pulling away - the jamming from the target now actually guiding the missile home.
> 2 seconds to impact - the fuzes are about to engage on the initial warheads - the ZDK has pulled away on its race track and more assets are airborne with other missiles - the target realizes it may have to drink tea.


Thanks for the wonderful explanation. The description is great but still does no justice to the effort that went in achieving such an integrated battle system - integration of info from A/C to ground and air-bone assets , some flying at greater than mach 1, and that too with strict real time requirements of different distributed systems, with God knows how many different equipment vendors and protocols to deal with etc. This is no easy feat, and oh I also forgot to add dealing with the financial constraints and difficult diplomatic/political environment as well. Kudos to the managers, planners and engineers.

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## kursed

TheDarkKnight said:


> I think what he meant was that can these AWACS provide active guidance to BVR missiles of other PAF aircrafts such as JF17 or F16?
> 
> For example JF17 locks on enemy jets and fires BVRs, and once fired turns radar off or flees away with awacs guiding the missiles to target. In another case can the fighter jets keep their radars off and fire missiles just based on data provided to them by other ground based and airborne assets? I hope these questions were not too sensitive or specific for PAF capabilities ( if they are please ignore the questions).


No. It is thus far not possible.


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## TheTallGuy

Readerdefence said:


> Hi sir sorry to be a knob is it possible to integrate Chinese VLAAM or PL15 kind of missiles on these planes so they can guide those missiles through their own radars
> If possible to answer to answer
> Thank you



As i understand you ask for Cooperative engagement mode..Where ZDK-03 via Datalink 17 provides data to JF17 to open fire (SD10 or ?) without using its own radar..then JF17s disengages or apply a Notch..SD10 or ? could get updates from ZDK-03 and kills the target..at very long range..

If this you want to know..then its classified..just as Saab2000 AEW&C cooperative mode is..with link 16.

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## SQ8

TheDarkKnight said:


> Thanks for the wonderful explanation. The description is great but still does no justice to the effort that went in achieving such an integrated battle system - integration of info from A/C to ground and air-bone assets , some flying at greater than mach 1, and that too with strict real time requirements of different distributed systems, with God knows how many different equipment vendors and protocols to deal with etc. This is no easy feat, and oh I also forgot to add dealing with the financial constraints and difficult diplomatic/political environment as well. Kudos to the managers, planners and engineers.




Assuming that such a system is ever implemented - yes, it would be extremely complex and require a lot of moving parts to work per requirements.

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## Readerdefence

TheTallGuy said:


> As i understand you ask for Cooperative engagement mode..Where ZDK-03 via Datalink 17 provides data to JF17 to open fire (SD10 or ?) without using its own radar..then JF17s disengages or apply a Notch..SD10 or ? could get updates from ZDK-03 and kills the target..at very long range..
> 
> If this you want to know..then its classified..just as Saab2000 AEW&C cooperative mode is..with link 16.


Hi thanks for your detailed reply to some extent you have given the answer but I was looking for 
Something through Chinese AAM with very long range if possible to use them through ZDK long range radar without using less capable jf17 radars but I believe one can not arm their AWACS 
If I’m not wrong 
Thank you once again for your answer to my Q


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## ghazi52



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## Thorough Pro

Why would it be complex?
The missile is communicating with the mothership using a transmit/receive module using encrypted codes with specific identifiers, as long as the received codes (instructions) are validated by the onboard computer to be legit regardless of who the sender is, it should work. As an over-simplified example, its like a remote control unit with multiple transmitters (JF17 and AWACS) but only one receiver (missile) all working on a specific frequency only in this case the frequency is replaced by encrypted code unique identifiers like a password. Or am I missing something?





SQ8 said:


> Assuming that such a system is ever implemented - yes, it would be extremely complex and require a lot of moving parts to work per requirements.


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## SQ8

Thorough Pro said:


> Why would it be complex?
> The missile is communicating with the mothership using a transmit/receive module using encrypted codes with specific identifiers, as long as the received codes (instructions) are validated by the onboard computer to be legit regardless of who the sender is, it should work. As an over-simplified example, its like a remote control unit with multiple transmitters (JF17 and AWACS) but only one receiver (missile) all working on a specific frequency only in this case the frequency is replaced by encrypted code unique identifiers like a password. Or am I missing something?


Quite a bit - frequencies are only 1/8th of the problem. You are looking at ensuring robust links capable of operating in a high EW environment, with environmental natural and unnatural interference along with both transmitter, receiver and target all moving and with their signal returns changing in RSSI constantly along with other issues.

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## Thorough Pro

The launched missile already receives communications (mid-course updates) from the launching aircraft despite all the challenges you mentioned (launch aircraft, missile and target manoeuvring and heavy EW environment) until it itself goes pitbull.

My question is why is it impossible for the missile to get the same communication from an AEWACS aircraft if the AWACS (with more powerful transmitter, relatively low speed and almost no manoeuvring) uses the same protocols for communication as the launch aircraft.

I am not an expert but I believe the missile knows where it is because of the onboard GPS system, the launch aircraft probably only communicates the coordiantes and velocity of the target aircraft, the same can be done by the AEWACS as the coordiantes of the target would still be the same regardless of the position of the observer (launch aircraft or the AWACS). 



SQ8 said:


> Quite a bit - frequencies are only 1/8th of the problem. You are looking at ensuring robust links capable of operating in a high EW environment, with environmental natural and unnatural interference along with both transmitter, receiver and target all moving and with their signal returns changing in RSSI constantly along with other issues.

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## Windjammer



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## air marshal



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## Yasser76

air marshal said:


> Pakistan Air Force Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C - Photo by Tahir Sultan - Falcons.PK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> falcons.pk



Definately looks different to our original Erieyes. Seems like more sensors on board


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## syed_yusuf

Is this new one


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## ghazi52

AhmAd IbrAhim

@AhmAdTipu7

A formation of PAF Saab 2000 Erieye pair. 
One of Erieye belongs to No3 sq Angles. The other one is unmarked, suggesting that its newly inducted aircraft and will be part of another Erieye squadron which is speculated to be raised in near future.

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## Khan vilatey

20 years or so ago there used to be a place called the Pakistanidefenceforum. Back then the PDF was for mature folks where serious discussions used to happen Usman Shabir was a great source of information for us all. I remember back then we used to pray and hope that Pakistan get AWACS and we begged America for the carrier based E-2 Hawkeye when India got the phalcons. Then Mushraf happened forcing us to To get eireyes and Chinese zdk 03. We went from one to 7~ 8, now we have 11 or more, I remember the first flight unofficial one of the JF-17 and the official one with a painT scheme of the Jf-17. Now Mashallah we have 150+ , with two seater version and block 3 is on the horizon , we have aerial refueling and so much more.

how things have changed. How Allah has been beneficent and merciful.

I do not think we need more rather it maybe be focal to upgrade existing assets especially the Zdk-03 to getter higher range and more connectivity capability. We could invest the money on more integration , better air defence and more

kv

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## MZafar

Khan vilatey said:


> 20 years or so ago there used to be a place called the Pakistanidefenceforum. Back then the PDF was for mature folks where serious discussions used to happen Usman Shabir was a great source of information for us all. I remember back then we used to pray and hope that Pakistan get AWACS and we begged America for the carrier based E-2 Hawkeye when India got the phalcons. Then Mushraf happened forcing us to To get eireyes and Chinese zdk 03. We went from one to 7~ 8, now we have 11 or more, I remember the first flight unofficial one of the JF-17 and the official one with a painT scheme of the Jf-17. Now Mashallah we have 150+ , with two seater version and block 3 is on the horizon , we have aerial refueling and so much more.
> 
> how things have changed. How Allah has been beneficent and merciful.
> 
> I do not think we need more rather it maybe be focal to upgrade existing assets especially the Zdk-03 to getter higher range and more connectivity capability. We could invest the money on more integration , better air defence and more
> 
> kv


Indeed my friend, I remember that time on the forum.
Very informative discussions.
PAF has come a long way since then.


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## khansaheeb

Whichever Systems were best and worked well during the February shoot down of Indian jets are the ones we should go with. But we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket and keep evolving for ultimate deterrence.


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## Khan vilatey

Anyone know where Usman shabbir is or Londo mularri who made the first paf jf-17 video

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## Khan vilatey

For old times sake 






MZafar said:


> Indeed my friend, I remember that time on the forum.
> Very informative discussions.
> PAF has come a long way since then.




for old times sake Mashallah it came true!





kv

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Khan vilatey said:


> Anyone know where Usman shabbir is or Londo mularri who made the first paf jf-17 video


You can find Usman Shabbir and platinum786 on Facebook. I'm not sure about Londo Molari -- I never got his real name so I can't say. Ditto for 'Oqaab,' 'Tallgeese,' 'Sobank,' 'Amir Kiani,' and so on. There was also another Usman from the ezBoards forum that came before the original PDF.

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## MZafar

Khan vilatey said:


> For old times sake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for old times sake Mashallah it came true!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kv


Good old days. 
Thanks a lot for sharing 🙂

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## waz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You can find Usman Shabbir and platinum786 on Facebook. I'm not sure about Londo Molari -- I never got his real name so I can't say. Ditto for 'Oqaab,' 'Tallgeese,' 'Sobank,' 'Amir Kiani,' and so on. There was also another Usman from the ezBoards forum that came before the original PDF.



Oh man that's some names from the past. Try to get Plat786 to join here and Sobank. I miss these guys, God the battles in the late 90's and early 0 years hahah.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

waz said:


> Oh man that's some names from the past. Try to get Plat786 to join here and Sobank. I miss these guys, God the battles in the late 90's and early 0 years hahah.


How about a private sub-forum on this forum with the oldies? Call it the '32 F-16 Club'

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## Khan vilatey

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> How about a private sub-forum on this forum with the oldies? Call it the '32 F-16 Club'



i remember all those fights, I was young and stupid now I realize i am just stupid  please start the club it would be good to connect 

kv

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## mingle

Khan vilatey said:


> Anyone know where Usman shabbir is or Londo mularri who made the first paf jf-17 video


Usman lives Denmark not sure he is active on new forum? Used to twitter ID but don't share anything there?

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## waz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> How about a private sub-forum on this forum with the oldies? Call it the '32 F-16 Club'



Hmmm I'm liking it bro, let me speak to the Big Boss. Although he will probably say just tell them to register and add to our might.
Oh man I remember the Kargil battles, each Pakistani was like 'one punch man' facing multiple waves of Indians, as Pakistan's internet coverage was non-existent and it was mostly us expats hahaha.

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## waz

Khan vilatey said:


> i remember all those fights, I was young and stupid now I realize i am just stupid  please start the club it would be good to connect
> 
> kv



Don't be silly bro, you were the vanguard which paved the way for millions of our brothers and sisters now. I'm not even playing saying this. Our work was so important back in the day.

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## Khan vilatey

waz said:


> Oh man that's some names from the past. Try to get Plat786 to join here and Sobank. I miss these guys, God the battles in the late 90's and early 0 years hahah.



good to connect with old friends, those were awesome times l I was wajman 



mingle said:


> Usman lives Denmark not sure he is active on new forum? Used to twitter ID but don't share anything there?




good to hear very smart person. I was wajman

kv


leave you a blast from the past 
*Jas-39 Gripen Vs Sukhoi Su-30mki 

kataphraktoi 
Sep 8 2003, 03:01 PM*


perhaps small correction is required here ....

OK guyz, can grippen (supported by awacs) Beat Su-30mki (supported by awacs)?

actually i read somewhere that Phalcon is superior to AWACS because it is mounted in the nose of the Russian Illyushin-76 and not as a rotor dome on top thereby making it more maneuverable? ....: ermm


*Rahul 
Sep 8 2003, 04: 04 PM*


Sorry Guys.

Su30 mki has longer range tracking and engagement radar.

Longer range AAM for destroying planes at 200-300 kilometers.

Boats twin engines that can travel to 1500 miles away to fight.

Carries twice the payload ie between 9-12 missles.

Yet remarkably it is a relatively lightweight fighter complete with thrust vectoring control. 

Highly agile 

The gripen is my favorite looking plane in the world. But in terms of performance SU30MKI is bigger and more powerful. 

The only plane superior to su30 mki today is Typhoon and Raphael. 

When jsf & f22 they will be the best. 

SU30 MKI with Phalcon is a deadly cobination. 

GRIPEN IN paf colors with E3 Sentry is my dream 


.................. 

*Iranian Warrior 
Sep 8 2003, 05:23 PM*


Gripens have one huge advantage. Their datalinks. The pilots will have a much better situational awareness .... Gripens can share info with eachother ..

Also Gripen has the AMRAAM, MKI has the Adder, so at BVR its very equal. In WVR, the HMS and Archer turns the favour to the MKI.

"The R-27ER/ET with thier 70 mile range probaly will "not hit the broad side of a barn""

You are basing that on Ethipia, Eritrea, where people are not so sure the missiles were maintained well, and were fired against Russian and Ukranian Mercenaries who knew the limitations of the missiles, and hence may have known effienct counter manuvers. The Chinese and Indians would not have bout 2000+ missiles if they were so ineffective....... Also bear in mind that the N-019 and N-001 of those MiG-29's and Su-27's were very prone to losing their targets, in which case the SARH missile would have no chance of hitting such a target..

We know how capable the AIM-54 C ECCM SEALED is, yet it has failed on the four occasions it has been used in combat with a sucess rate of 0%...

Anyway that said, you are right that the R-27 is not such a serious threat at BVR, but it has a huge advantage in getting first shot. The Pilot in the gripen, isnt gonna sit there saying, dont worry the missile will miss, he will move to evade regardless of how effective the missile is, he will take countermeasures., which leaves the MKI in a better position to fire the ADDER or ARCHER.....


As for "The only plane superior to su30 mki today is Typhoon and Raphael."

according to BAE, Typhoon has a 4.5:1 kill ratio against the Su-35, and the rafael has 1:1 ratio. Bear in mind that Su-30MKI is more combat effective than the Su-35....


"And F-15K and the F-15C MSIP II (AESA) of Alaska ............" 

F-15K is nearly three times as expensive. Pick 3 MKI, or 1 F-15K .... 

And the AESA eagles iN Alaska are 24 in number and will stay that ay from the looks of it ... Mind you though, would have loved to see those radars on a few F-15 ACTIVE ... remeber that supermanuverable project ???? 

.................. 

*Rahul 
Sep 9 2003,*

03:12 *PM* SU30 MKI HAS DATA LINKING HAS STANDARD. 

a RECENT SURVEY IN HERE paf FORUM OF ALL WORLDS FIGHTERS su30 mki came above Gripen M, IRAGE 2000-5 AND LATEST F16 & WAS MATCH FOR VERY BEST F15 & F18 SUPER HORNETS. 

I say again only aircraft superior to mki is Typhoon & Raphael possibly latest F15 & F18 ...

but grip [en def the best looking. and a must for paf IF ONLY ..... 

*wajman 
Sep 9 2003, 11:21 PM*

sir i respect iran and her decdent in my opinion hey r people with balls no disrespect intended but some how i feel that you at a personel level have some reservations against Paksitan. 

well r77 track record speaks for it self ie please check out the horns of africa war between ethopia and eritria. the missile was found to be ineffective that is why pakistan is probably intrusted in the darter series for its af 

i thought the phinx of the us. navy had the longest range ie 90 ~ 100 MILES


ok now the phalcon radar is better than the americab e-3c scenetries a time tested awacs considered to be the best on the planet it was always said to be as capable tot eh naval version of the us. navy.

soeey about the mig-33 the finest fighter in russian af is the mig-31m foxhound intercepter and now a with a multirole profile as well. in its said that 4 mig-31s with data links can cover an area of 800kms. its said to be like a mini awacs which fights.


the russians did not induct the su-30s into their own af tells you something.

R-73, Python 4, Moskit, Granit, S-300, S-400, MICA.............
r-73 not relialble counterpart amram aim-120 is considered to be the best bvr missle inthe worls.

moskit = russian anit ship missle supersonic and all bet so far has no major kills toits credit while the harpoon has been battle tested 

s-300 sam biggest enemy on this planet is the american advanced ant i radar missle i forgot the name. compared to the hawk missles. even iran has them though they had access to s-300and 400 

ok so lavi would beat the f-16 which block r we are talking about. 

Russia gives MKK, MKI which are not used by themselves. Israel gives Phalcon a good system though lets c what happens and Python 4 and Derby not neccarliy thier best probaly working on something better. 

*Hellscream 
Sep 9 2003, 11:37 PM*

my god u are seriously misinformed ......... 
that was the R-27 used in the African war not the R-77 ..

ummm the russians are inducting the Su-35 i beleive............what do u mean it tells u something ??
they run on a shoestring budget and cant afford to buy anything atwill.
or else even the Su-37 terminator would be in service.

R-73 is not the counterpart of the AMRAAM





first of all it is IR guided not Radar guided like the Aim-120
secondly it is more of a WVR missile ...........with HMS..



it is comparable to the Aim-9X

the Moskit is one of the finest Ashms in the world............dont beleive me ??
ask ur chinese friends.

the Python-4 was their best till the Python-5 came out.....

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## Bilal.

MZafar said:


> Good old days.
> Thanks a lot for sharing 🙂


There was one from him showing world airforces fighting alien invasion jointly

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## Bilal.

Khan vilatey said:


> good to connect with old friends, those were awesome times l I was wajman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> good to hear very smart person. I was wajman
> 
> kv
> 
> 
> leave you a blast from the past
> *Jas-39 Gripen Vs Sukhoi Su-30mki
> 
> kataphraktoi
> Sep 8 2003, 03:01 PM*
> 
> 
> perhaps small correction is required here ....
> 
> OK guyz, can grippen (supported by awacs) Beat Su-30mki (supported by awacs)?
> 
> actually i read somewhere that Phalcon is superior to AWACS because it is mounted in the nose of the Russian Illyushin-76 and not as a rotor dome on top thereby making it more maneuverable? ....: ermm
> 
> 
> *Rahul
> Sep 8 2003, 04: 04 PM*
> 
> 
> Sorry Guys.
> 
> Su30 mki has longer range tracking and engagement radar.
> 
> Longer range AAM for destroying planes at 200-300 kilometers.
> 
> Boats twin engines that can travel to 1500 miles away to fight.
> 
> Carries twice the payload ie between 9-12 missles.
> 
> Yet remarkably it is a relatively lightweight fighter complete with thrust vectoring control.
> 
> Highly agile
> 
> The gripen is my favorite looking plane in the world. But in terms of performance SU30MKI is bigger and more powerful.
> 
> The only plane superior to su30 mki today is Typhoon and Raphael.
> 
> When jsf & f22 they will be the best.
> 
> SU30 MKI with Phalcon is a deadly cobination.
> 
> GRIPEN IN paf colors with E3 Sentry is my dream
> 
> 
> ..................
> 
> *Iranian Warrior
> Sep 8 2003, 05:23 PM*
> 
> 
> Gripens have one huge advantage. Their datalinks. The pilots will have a much better situational awareness .... Gripens can share info with eachother ..
> 
> Also Gripen has the AMRAAM, MKI has the Adder, so at BVR its very equal. In WVR, the HMS and Archer turns the favour to the MKI.
> 
> "The R-27ER/ET with thier 70 mile range probaly will "not hit the broad side of a barn""
> 
> You are basing that on Ethipia, Eritrea, where people are not so sure the missiles were maintained well, and were fired against Russian and Ukranian Mercenaries who knew the limitations of the missiles, and hence may have known effienct counter manuvers. The Chinese and Indians would not have bout 2000+ missiles if they were so ineffective....... Also bear in mind that the N-019 and N-001 of those MiG-29's and Su-27's were very prone to losing their targets, in which case the SARH missile would have no chance of hitting such a target..
> 
> We know how capable the AIM-54 C ECCM SEALED is, yet it has failed on the four occasions it has been used in combat with a sucess rate of 0%...
> 
> Anyway that said, you are right that the R-27 is not such a serious threat at BVR, but it has a huge advantage in getting first shot. The Pilot in the gripen, isnt gonna sit there saying, dont worry the missile will miss, he will move to evade regardless of how effective the missile is, he will take countermeasures., which leaves the MKI in a better position to fire the ADDER or ARCHER.....
> 
> 
> As for "The only plane superior to su30 mki today is Typhoon and Raphael."
> 
> according to BAE, Typhoon has a 4.5:1 kill ratio against the Su-35, and the rafael has 1:1 ratio. Bear in mind that Su-30MKI is more combat effective than the Su-35....
> 
> 
> "And F-15K and the F-15C MSIP II (AESA) of Alaska ............"
> 
> F-15K is nearly three times as expensive. Pick 3 MKI, or 1 F-15K ....
> 
> And the AESA eagles iN Alaska are 24 in number and will stay that ay from the looks of it ... Mind you though, would have loved to see those radars on a few F-15 ACTIVE ... remeber that supermanuverable project ????
> 
> ..................
> 
> *Rahul
> Sep 9 2003,*
> 
> 03:12 *PM* SU30 MKI HAS DATA LINKING HAS STANDARD.
> 
> a RECENT SURVEY IN HERE paf FORUM OF ALL WORLDS FIGHTERS su30 mki came above Gripen M, IRAGE 2000-5 AND LATEST F16 & WAS MATCH FOR VERY BEST F15 & F18 SUPER HORNETS.
> 
> I say again only aircraft superior to mki is Typhoon & Raphael possibly latest F15 & F18 ...
> 
> but grip [en def the best looking. and a must for paf IF ONLY .....
> 
> *wajman
> Sep 9 2003, 11:21 PM*
> 
> sir i respect iran and her decdent in my opinion hey r people with balls no disrespect intended but some how i feel that you at a personel level have some reservations against Paksitan.
> 
> well r77 track record speaks for it self ie please check out the horns of africa war between ethopia and eritria. the missile was found to be ineffective that is why pakistan is probably intrusted in the darter series for its af
> 
> i thought the phinx of the us. navy had the longest range ie 90 ~ 100 MILES
> 
> 
> ok now the phalcon radar is better than the americab e-3c scenetries a time tested awacs considered to be the best on the planet it was always said to be as capable tot eh naval version of the us. navy.
> 
> soeey about the mig-33 the finest fighter in russian af is the mig-31m foxhound intercepter and now a with a multirole profile as well. in its said that 4 mig-31s with data links can cover an area of 800kms. its said to be like a mini awacs which fights.
> 
> 
> the russians did not induct the su-30s into their own af tells you something.
> 
> R-73, Python 4, Moskit, Granit, S-300, S-400, MICA.............
> r-73 not relialble counterpart amram aim-120 is considered to be the best bvr missle inthe worls.
> 
> moskit = russian anit ship missle supersonic and all bet so far has no major kills toits credit while the harpoon has been battle tested
> 
> s-300 sam biggest enemy on this planet is the american advanced ant i radar missle i forgot the name. compared to the hawk missles. even iran has them though they had access to s-300and 400
> 
> ok so lavi would beat the f-16 which block r we are talking about.
> 
> Russia gives MKK, MKI which are not used by themselves. Israel gives Phalcon a good system though lets c what happens and Python 4 and Derby not neccarliy thier best probaly working on something better.
> 
> *Hellscream
> Sep 9 2003, 11:37 PM*
> 
> my god u are seriously misinformed .........
> that was the R-27 used in the African war not the R-77 ..
> 
> ummm the russians are inducting the Su-35 i beleive............what do u mean it tells u something ??
> they run on a shoestring budget and cant afford to buy anything atwill.
> or else even the Su-37 terminator would be in service.
> 
> R-73 is not the counterpart of the AMRAAM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> first of all it is IR guided not Radar guided like the Aim-120
> secondly it is more of a WVR missile ...........with HMS..
> 
> 
> 
> it is comparable to the Aim-9X
> 
> the Moskit is one of the finest Ashms in the world............dont beleive me ??
> ask ur chinese friends.
> 
> the Python-4 was their best till the Python-5 came out.....


Lol. Back when SU30 was the mini-AWACS and raptor of the East.

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## MZafar

Bilal. said:


> There was one from him showing world airforces fighting alien invasion jointly


Oh, missed that one .
Must have been interesting 😊


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## musaji

Khan vilatey said:


> 20 years or so ago there used to be a place called the Pakistanidefenceforum. Back then the PDF was for mature folks where serious discussions used to happen Usman Shabir was a great source of information for us all. I remember back then we used to pray and hope that Pakistan get AWACS and we begged America for the carrier based E-2 Hawkeye when India got the phalcons. Then Mushraf happened forcing us to To get eireyes and Chinese zdk 03. We went from one to 7~ 8, now we have 11 or more, I remember the first flight unofficial one of the JF-17 and the official one with a painT scheme of the Jf-17. Now Mashallah we have 150+ , with two seater version and block 3 is on the horizon , we have aerial refueling and so much more.
> 
> how things have changed. How Allah has been beneficent and merciful.
> 
> I do not think we need more rather it maybe be focal to upgrade existing assets especially the Zdk-03 to getter higher range and more connectivity capability. We could invest the money on more integration , better air defence and more
> 
> kv


yep i used to be a frequent member of that forum and then later on pakdef.info. Those were some good old times. Luckily, we still have a great community here on this forum as well.

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## Yasser76

Loos like AEW fleet now around 3 squadrons with 4 planes each ultmately. 2 Erieye Sqds and a ZKD Sqd. Formidable.

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## Imran Khan

Khan vilatey said:


> good to connect with old friends, those were awesome times l I was wajman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> good to hear very smart person. I was wajman
> 
> kv
> 
> 
> leave you a blast from the past
> *Jas-39 Gripen Vs Sukhoi Su-30mki
> 
> kataphraktoi
> Sep 8 2003, 03:01 PM*
> 
> 
> perhaps small correction is required here ....
> 
> OK guyz, can grippen (supported by awacs) Beat Su-30mki (supported by awacs)?
> 
> actually i read somewhere that Phalcon is superior to AWACS because it is mounted in the nose of the Russian Illyushin-76 and not as a rotor dome on top thereby making it more maneuverable? ....: ermm
> 
> 
> *Rahul
> Sep 8 2003, 04: 04 PM*
> 
> 
> Sorry Guys.
> 
> Su30 mki has longer range tracking and engagement radar.
> 
> Longer range AAM for destroying planes at 200-300 kilometers.
> 
> Boats twin engines that can travel to 1500 miles away to fight.
> 
> Carries twice the payload ie between 9-12 missles.
> 
> Yet remarkably it is a relatively lightweight fighter complete with thrust vectoring control.
> 
> Highly agile
> 
> The gripen is my favorite looking plane in the world. But in terms of performance SU30MKI is bigger and more powerful.
> 
> The only plane superior to su30 mki today is Typhoon and Raphael.
> 
> When jsf & f22 they will be the best.
> 
> SU30 MKI with Phalcon is a deadly cobination.
> 
> GRIPEN IN paf colors with E3 Sentry is my dream
> 
> 
> ..................
> 
> *Iranian Warrior
> Sep 8 2003, 05:23 PM*
> 
> 
> Gripens have one huge advantage. Their datalinks. The pilots will have a much better situational awareness .... Gripens can share info with eachother ..
> 
> Also Gripen has the AMRAAM, MKI has the Adder, so at BVR its very equal. In WVR, the HMS and Archer turns the favour to the MKI.
> 
> "The R-27ER/ET with thier 70 mile range probaly will "not hit the broad side of a barn""
> 
> You are basing that on Ethipia, Eritrea, where people are not so sure the missiles were maintained well, and were fired against Russian and Ukranian Mercenaries who knew the limitations of the missiles, and hence may have known effienct counter manuvers. The Chinese and Indians would not have bout 2000+ missiles if they were so ineffective....... Also bear in mind that the N-019 and N-001 of those MiG-29's and Su-27's were very prone to losing their targets, in which case the SARH missile would have no chance of hitting such a target..
> 
> We know how capable the AIM-54 C ECCM SEALED is, yet it has failed on the four occasions it has been used in combat with a sucess rate of 0%...
> 
> Anyway that said, you are right that the R-27 is not such a serious threat at BVR, but it has a huge advantage in getting first shot. The Pilot in the gripen, isnt gonna sit there saying, dont worry the missile will miss, he will move to evade regardless of how effective the missile is, he will take countermeasures., which leaves the MKI in a better position to fire the ADDER or ARCHER.....
> 
> 
> As for "The only plane superior to su30 mki today is Typhoon and Raphael."
> 
> according to BAE, Typhoon has a 4.5:1 kill ratio against the Su-35, and the rafael has 1:1 ratio. Bear in mind that Su-30MKI is more combat effective than the Su-35....
> 
> 
> "And F-15K and the F-15C MSIP II (AESA) of Alaska ............"
> 
> F-15K is nearly three times as expensive. Pick 3 MKI, or 1 F-15K ....
> 
> And the AESA eagles iN Alaska are 24 in number and will stay that ay from the looks of it ... Mind you though, would have loved to see those radars on a few F-15 ACTIVE ... remeber that supermanuverable project ????
> 
> ..................
> 
> *Rahul
> Sep 9 2003,*
> 
> 03:12 *PM* SU30 MKI HAS DATA LINKING HAS STANDARD.
> 
> a RECENT SURVEY IN HERE paf FORUM OF ALL WORLDS FIGHTERS su30 mki came above Gripen M, IRAGE 2000-5 AND LATEST F16 & WAS MATCH FOR VERY BEST F15 & F18 SUPER HORNETS.
> 
> I say again only aircraft superior to mki is Typhoon & Raphael possibly latest F15 & F18 ...
> 
> but grip [en def the best looking. and a must for paf IF ONLY .....
> 
> *wajman
> Sep 9 2003, 11:21 PM*
> 
> sir i respect iran and her decdent in my opinion hey r people with balls no disrespect intended but some how i feel that you at a personel level have some reservations against Paksitan.
> 
> well r77 track record speaks for it self ie please check out the horns of africa war between ethopia and eritria. the missile was found to be ineffective that is why pakistan is probably intrusted in the darter series for its af
> 
> i thought the phinx of the us. navy had the longest range ie 90 ~ 100 MILES
> 
> 
> ok now the phalcon radar is better than the americab e-3c scenetries a time tested awacs considered to be the best on the planet it was always said to be as capable tot eh naval version of the us. navy.
> 
> soeey about the mig-33 the finest fighter in russian af is the mig-31m foxhound intercepter and now a with a multirole profile as well. in its said that 4 mig-31s with data links can cover an area of 800kms. its said to be like a mini awacs which fights.
> 
> 
> the russians did not induct the su-30s into their own af tells you something.
> 
> R-73, Python 4, Moskit, Granit, S-300, S-400, MICA.............
> r-73 not relialble counterpart amram aim-120 is considered to be the best bvr missle inthe worls.
> 
> moskit = russian anit ship missle supersonic and all bet so far has no major kills toits credit while the harpoon has been battle tested
> 
> s-300 sam biggest enemy on this planet is the american advanced ant i radar missle i forgot the name. compared to the hawk missles. even iran has them though they had access to s-300and 400
> 
> ok so lavi would beat the f-16 which block r we are talking about.
> 
> Russia gives MKK, MKI which are not used by themselves. Israel gives Phalcon a good system though lets c what happens and Python 4 and Derby not neccarliy thier best probaly working on something better.
> 
> *Hellscream
> Sep 9 2003, 11:37 PM*
> 
> my god u are seriously misinformed .........
> that was the R-27 used in the African war not the R-77 ..
> 
> ummm the russians are inducting the Su-35 i beleive............what do u mean it tells u something ??
> they run on a shoestring budget and cant afford to buy anything atwill.
> or else even the Su-37 terminator would be in service.
> 
> R-73 is not the counterpart of the AMRAAM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> first of all it is IR guided not Radar guided like the Aim-120
> secondly it is more of a WVR missile ...........with HMS..
> 
> 
> 
> it is comparable to the Aim-9X
> 
> the Moskit is one of the finest Ashms in the world............dont beleive me ??
> ask ur chinese friends.
> 
> the Python-4 was their best till the Python-5 came out.....


i like this part of rahul's post   
Su30 mki has longer range tracking and engagement radar.

Longer range AAM for destroying planes at 200-300 kilometers.

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## The Raven

Yep, I was on PakDef since the late 90s, good old days. I had many 'heated debates' shall we say, with Munir, that guy was something else, an ego so big he just couldn't get to grips with reality. Back then we were limited to discussing how the PAF would have to rely on anti-BVR tactics and fox-2 only capability against the hoard of BVR equipped IAF fleet backed up with AWACS and IFR...how things have changed, all thanks to a few visionary PAF ACMs (such as the late Mushaf Ali Mir) and with the support of Mushy's time in office.

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## Yasser76

The Raven said:


> Yep, I was on PakDef since the late 90s, good old days. I had many 'heated debates' shall we say, with Munir, that guy was something else, an ego so big he just couldn't get to grips with reality. Back then we were limited to discussing how the PAF would have to rely on anti-BVR tactics and fox-2 only capability against the hoard of BVR equipped IAF fleet backed up with AWACS and IFR...how things have changed, all thanks to a few visionary PAF ACMs (such as the late Mushaf Ali Mir) and with the support of Mushy's time in office.



I remember back then. I mentioned that Pak would get Block 52 F-16s with CFTs, AMRAAMS and JDAMS right after 9/11. Usman and Munir laughed and one of my posts was even edited for suggesting it. Funny world.

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## Falcon26

waz said:


> Oh man that's some names from the past. Try to get Plat786 to join here and Sobank. I miss these guys, God the battles in the late 90's and early 0 years hahah.



I remember you from that forum, as well. Great memories and times. Rest In Peace to Munir.

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## Falcon26

The Raven said:


> Yep, I was on PakDef since the late 90s, good old days. I had many 'heated debates' shall we say, with Munir, that guy was something else, an ego so big he just couldn't get to grips with reality. Back then we were limited to discussing how the PAF would have to rely on anti-BVR tactics and fox-2 only capability against the hoard of BVR equipped IAF fleet backed up with AWACS and IFR...how things have changed, all thanks to a few visionary PAF ACMs (such as the late Mushaf Ali Mir) and with the support of Mushy's time in office.



Munir passed away few years ago.

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## Imran Khan

Falcon26 said:


> Munir passed away few years ago.


i read that debates RIP to him .

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## The Raven

Falcon26 said:


> Munir passed away few years ago.



Yep, from cancer I believe, RIP. He was widely known, but usually for all the wrong reasons unfortunately.

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## volatile

I have read some where PAF is looking for follow up order on Chinese ZDk-03 as well but based on improvement and other customized parameters .Is it True ?


----------



## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You can find Usman Shabbir and platinum786 on Facebook. I'm not sure about Londo Molari -- I never got his real name so I can't say. Ditto for 'Oqaab,' 'Tallgeese,' 'Sobank,' 'Amir Kiani,' and so on. There was also another Usman from the ezBoards forum that came before the original PDF.


There was another Moderator Psychosaint too. 
I used to have discussions with M1Tanky and Zraver about tanks.
A troll showed up in the form of 'PiratesOfCarribean" who was nicknamed POC, who spammed the whole forum.
i forgot a member's name but i remember his signature," I imported a dog from India, for some reason it keeps barking at neighbours". 
I think Webbys name was Mansoor and he asked for donations in 2006 i guess, those who donated got elite status as members.
Londo Molari made two videos for JF-17. The second video was all the world airforces uniting to fight UFOs.
I remember a member FaizanKhaliq who had started a scenario of blue land Vs Red Land in the Army section.
Must7 (real name Mustafa) died a few years after i joined, i met him in AbuDhabi, UAE.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Signalian

Khan vilatey said:


> good to connect with old friends, those were awesome times l I was wajman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> good to hear very smart person. I was wajman
> 
> kv
> 
> 
> leave you a blast from the past
> *Jas-39 Gripen Vs Sukhoi Su-30mki
> 
> kataphraktoi
> Sep 8 2003, 03:01 PM*
> 
> 
> perhaps small correction is required here ....
> 
> OK guyz, can grippen (supported by awacs) Beat Su-30mki (supported by awacs)?
> 
> actually i read somewhere that Phalcon is superior to AWACS because it is mounted in the nose of the Russian Illyushin-76 and not as a rotor dome on top thereby making it more maneuverable? ....: ermm
> 
> 
> *Rahul
> Sep 8 2003, 04: 04 PM*
> 
> 
> Sorry Guys.
> 
> Su30 mki has longer range tracking and engagement radar.
> 
> Longer range AAM for destroying planes at 200-300 kilometers.
> 
> Boats twin engines that can travel to 1500 miles away to fight.
> 
> Carries twice the payload ie between 9-12 missles.
> 
> Yet remarkably it is a relatively lightweight fighter complete with thrust vectoring control.
> 
> Highly agile
> 
> The gripen is my favorite looking plane in the world. But in terms of performance SU30MKI is bigger and more powerful.
> 
> The only plane superior to su30 mki today is Typhoon and Raphael.
> 
> When jsf & f22 they will be the best.
> 
> SU30 MKI with Phalcon is a deadly cobination.
> 
> GRIPEN IN paf colors with E3 Sentry is my dream
> 
> 
> ..................
> 
> *Iranian Warrior
> Sep 8 2003, 05:23 PM*
> 
> 
> Gripens have one huge advantage. Their datalinks. The pilots will have a much better situational awareness .... Gripens can share info with eachother ..
> 
> Also Gripen has the AMRAAM, MKI has the Adder, so at BVR its very equal. In WVR, the HMS and Archer turns the favour to the MKI.
> 
> "The R-27ER/ET with thier 70 mile range probaly will "not hit the broad side of a barn""
> 
> You are basing that on Ethipia, Eritrea, where people are not so sure the missiles were maintained well, and were fired against Russian and Ukranian Mercenaries who knew the limitations of the missiles, and hence may have known effienct counter manuvers. The Chinese and Indians would not have bout 2000+ missiles if they were so ineffective....... Also bear in mind that the N-019 and N-001 of those MiG-29's and Su-27's were very prone to losing their targets, in which case the SARH missile would have no chance of hitting such a target..
> 
> We know how capable the AIM-54 C ECCM SEALED is, yet it has failed on the four occasions it has been used in combat with a sucess rate of 0%...
> 
> Anyway that said, you are right that the R-27 is not such a serious threat at BVR, but it has a huge advantage in getting first shot. The Pilot in the gripen, isnt gonna sit there saying, dont worry the missile will miss, he will move to evade regardless of how effective the missile is, he will take countermeasures., which leaves the MKI in a better position to fire the ADDER or ARCHER.....
> 
> 
> As for "The only plane superior to su30 mki today is Typhoon and Raphael."
> 
> according to BAE, Typhoon has a 4.5:1 kill ratio against the Su-35, and the rafael has 1:1 ratio. Bear in mind that Su-30MKI is more combat effective than the Su-35....
> 
> 
> "And F-15K and the F-15C MSIP II (AESA) of Alaska ............"
> 
> F-15K is nearly three times as expensive. Pick 3 MKI, or 1 F-15K ....
> 
> And the AESA eagles iN Alaska are 24 in number and will stay that ay from the looks of it ... Mind you though, would have loved to see those radars on a few F-15 ACTIVE ... remeber that supermanuverable project ????
> 
> ..................
> 
> *Rahul
> Sep 9 2003,*
> 
> 03:12 *PM* SU30 MKI HAS DATA LINKING HAS STANDARD.
> 
> a RECENT SURVEY IN HERE paf FORUM OF ALL WORLDS FIGHTERS su30 mki came above Gripen M, IRAGE 2000-5 AND LATEST F16 & WAS MATCH FOR VERY BEST F15 & F18 SUPER HORNETS.
> 
> I say again only aircraft superior to mki is Typhoon & Raphael possibly latest F15 & F18 ...
> 
> but grip [en def the best looking. and a must for paf IF ONLY .....
> 
> *wajman
> Sep 9 2003, 11:21 PM*
> 
> sir i respect iran and her decdent in my opinion hey r people with balls no disrespect intended but some how i feel that you at a personel level have some reservations against Paksitan.
> 
> well r77 track record speaks for it self ie please check out the horns of africa war between ethopia and eritria. the missile was found to be ineffective that is why pakistan is probably intrusted in the darter series for its af
> 
> i thought the phinx of the us. navy had the longest range ie 90 ~ 100 MILES
> 
> 
> ok now the phalcon radar is better than the americab e-3c scenetries a time tested awacs considered to be the best on the planet it was always said to be as capable tot eh naval version of the us. navy.
> 
> soeey about the mig-33 the finest fighter in russian af is the mig-31m foxhound intercepter and now a with a multirole profile as well. in its said that 4 mig-31s with data links can cover an area of 800kms. its said to be like a mini awacs which fights.
> 
> 
> the russians did not induct the su-30s into their own af tells you something.
> 
> R-73, Python 4, Moskit, Granit, S-300, S-400, MICA.............
> r-73 not relialble counterpart amram aim-120 is considered to be the best bvr missle inthe worls.
> 
> moskit = russian anit ship missle supersonic and all bet so far has no major kills toits credit while the harpoon has been battle tested
> 
> s-300 sam biggest enemy on this planet is the american advanced ant i radar missle i forgot the name. compared to the hawk missles. even iran has them though they had access to s-300and 400
> 
> ok so lavi would beat the f-16 which block r we are talking about.
> 
> Russia gives MKK, MKI which are not used by themselves. Israel gives Phalcon a good system though lets c what happens and Python 4 and Derby not neccarliy thier best probaly working on something better.
> 
> *Hellscream
> Sep 9 2003, 11:37 PM*
> 
> my god u are seriously misinformed .........
> that was the R-27 used in the African war not the R-77 ..
> 
> ummm the russians are inducting the Su-35 i beleive............what do u mean it tells u something ??
> they run on a shoestring budget and cant afford to buy anything atwill.
> or else even the Su-37 terminator would be in service.
> 
> R-73 is not the counterpart of the AMRAAM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> first of all it is IR guided not Radar guided like the Aim-120
> secondly it is more of a WVR missile ...........with HMS..
> 
> 
> 
> it is comparable to the Aim-9X
> 
> the Moskit is one of the finest Ashms in the world............dont beleive me ??
> ask ur chinese friends.
> 
> the Python-4 was their best till the Python-5 came out.....


Wajman with that commandos game character as avatar ?

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## Khan vilatey

Signalian said:


> Wajman with that commandos game character as avatar ?


Yup one and only 
Kv

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## Khan vilatey

Signalian said:


> There was another Moderator Psychosaint too.
> I used to have discussions with M1Tanky and Zraver about tanks.
> A troll showed up in the form of 'PiratesOfCarribean" who was nicknamed POC, who spammed the whole forum.
> i forgot a member's name but i remember his signature," I imported a dog from India, for some reason it keeps barking at neighbours".
> I think Webbys name was Mansoor and he asked for donations in 2006 i guess, those who donated got elite status as members.
> Londo Molari made two videos for JF-17. The second video was all the world airforces uniting to fight UFOs.
> I remember a member FaizanKhaliq who had started a scenario of blue land Vs Red Land in the Army section.
> Must7 (real name Mustafa) died a few years after i joined, i met him in AbuDhabi, UAE.


Innanah lilialh wa Inna allehy rajaoon

as I said we were all young back then full of passion and in my case nievety. None of us could have ever believed that PAF will move so far along. Shoot down the raptor of the East and Do strike Mission in IOk. the JF -17 would become so formidable with the Smokey Russian engine and we would have massive amounts of awacs and Refuelers!

I cried with tears when I saw the alkahild -1, I imagine the immigration Baby coming to Pakistan on the back of a cart crying then 70 years later we get alkhalid -1

MashAllah we have a come a long way and Pakistan journey is beginning for greatnesses

kv

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## Falcon26

Signalian said:


> There was another Moderator Psychosaint too.
> I used to have discussions with M1Tanky and Zraver about tanks.
> A troll showed up in the form of 'PiratesOfCarribean" who was nicknamed POC, who spammed the whole forum.
> i forgot a member's name but i remember his signature,*" I imported a dog from India, for some reason it keeps barking at neighbours".*
> I think Webbys name was Mansoor and he asked for donations in 2006 i guess, those who donated got elite status as members.
> Londo Molari made two videos for JF-17. The second video was all the world airforces uniting to fight UFOs.
> I remember a member FaizanKhaliq who had started a scenario of blue land Vs Red Land in the Army section.
> Must7 (real name Mustafa) died a few years after i joined, i met him in AbuDhabi, UAE.



I remember that signature lol pretty legendary. Psychosaint was another great poster. Honestly, those were the days. 

there was another member who used to say “oh bhens” or something similar, no idea what that meant.

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## Signalian

Falcon26 said:


> I remember that signature lol pretty legendary. Psychosaint was another great poster. Honestly, those were the days.
> 
> there was another member who used to say “oh bhens” or something similar, no idea what that meant.


I can vaguely remember his name, Paguma Larvata.

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## Signalian

Khan vilatey said:


> Innanah lilialh wa Inna allehy rajaoon
> 
> as I said we were all young back then full of passion and in my case nievety. None of us could have ever believed that PAF will move so far along. Shoot down the raptor of the East and Do strike Mission in IOk. the JF -17 would become so formidable with the Smokey Russian engine and we would have massive amounts of awacs and Refuelers!
> 
> I cried with tears when I saw the alkahild -1, I imagine the immigration Baby coming to Pakistan on the back of a cart crying then 70 years later we get alkhalid -1
> 
> MashAllah we have a come a long way and Pakistan journey is beginning for greatnesses
> 
> kv


There was an Iraqi Sniper on roll against Coalition forces in those days, he was nicknamed 'Juba' in the media. I remember me and few others used to tease M1Tanky not to have a tour of Iraq otherwise Juba will get him in his cross hairs

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## Jinn Baba

Khan vilatey said:


> 20 years or so ago there used to be a place called the Pakistanidefenceforum. Back then the PDF was for mature folks where serious discussions used to happen Usman Shabir was a great source of information for us all. I remember back then we used to pray and hope that Pakistan get AWACS and we begged America for the carrier based E-2 Hawkeye when India got the phalcons. Then Mushraf happened forcing us to To get eireyes and Chinese zdk 03. We went from one to 7~ 8, now we have 11 or more, I remember the first flight unofficial one of the JF-17 and the official one with a painT scheme of the Jf-17. Now Mashallah we have 150+ , with two seater version and block 3 is on the horizon , we have aerial refueling and so much more.



You mean PakDef? Pakistanidefenceforum came after and wasn't so serious.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> I remember that signature lol pretty legendary. Psychosaint was another great poster. Honestly, those were the days.
> 
> there was another member who used to say “oh bhens” or something similar, no idea what that meant.





Signalian said:


> I can vaguely remember his name, Paguma Larvata.


LULLDAPULL

That guy... Lol We had thick skins back in the day, but that guy still triggered everyone (including himself at times).

He was definitely crass, but in hindsight, 75% of what he said about the state of our economy and governance was correct. I also remember how much effort it took to get that guy banned rofl.

There was also Hellraiser. I think I have Psychosaint on FB -- his real name is Zeeshan. IIRC the guy was a legit Pak Army jawan who graduated into becoming an officer.

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## Khan vilatey

Jinn Baba said:


> You mean PakDef? Pakistanidefenceforum came after and wasn't so serious.


I was on both

kv


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## Falcon26

Signalian said:


> I can vaguely remember his name, Paguma Larvata.



YES HIM lol


----------



## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> LULLDAPULL
> 
> That guy... Lol We had thick skins back in the day, but that guy still triggered everyone (including himself at times).
> 
> He was definitely crass, but in hindsight, 75% of what he said about the state of our economy and governance was correct. I also remember how much effort it took to get that guy banned rofl.
> 
> There was also Hellraiser. I think I have Psychosaint on FB -- his real name is Zeeshan. IIRC the guy was a legit Pak Army jawan who graduated into becoming an officer.



Those were the days!

what does the phrase mean? He used to say it every time.


----------



## Baloch Pakistani

Khan vilatey said:


> 20 years or so ago there used to be a place called the Pakistanidefenceforum. Back then the PDF was for mature folks where serious discussions used to happen Usman Shabir was a great source of information for us all. I remember back then we used to pray and hope that Pakistan get AWACS and we begged America for the carrier based E-2 Hawkeye when India got the phalcons. Then Mushraf happened forcing us to To get eireyes and Chinese zdk 03. We went from one to 7~ 8, now we have 11 or more, I remember the first flight unofficial one of the JF-17 and the official one with a painT scheme of the Jf-17. Now Mashallah we have 150+ , with two seater version and block 3 is on the horizon , we have aerial refueling and so much more.
> 
> how things have changed. How Allah has been beneficent and merciful.
> 
> I do not think we need more rather it maybe be focal to upgrade existing assets especially the Zdk-03 to getter higher range and more connectivity capability. We could invest the money on more integration , better air defence and more
> 
> kv


Ahhh those days seem like a dream now. Alkhalid, jf17/Super 7, Awacs, amraam etc. I was only a spectator back then and only remember "wajman" and used to think that only experts are here having a deep discussion. lol.

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## Khan vilatey

Baloch Pakistani said:


> Ahhh those days seem like a dream now. Alkhalid, jf17/Super 7, Awacs, amraam etc. I was only a spectator back then and only remember "wajman" and used to think that only experts are here having a deep discussion. lol.


Back the I had family members in kamra so had more sources of information! Now as I have become Vilatey, have to do actual research to get a POV down on paper.
Thank you for the compliment, I appreciate it. I am so glad to learn from all The experts here.

kv

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## ali_raza

i came a little late like in 2006
but we were discussing grippen still 
and mmrca was just dubbed mother of all deals
it was soo much discussed to death that we use to get sad ab kia bane ga
indians use to say laughingly that if iaf chose f16 anyhow we r taking ethopian nationality lol 
good old days

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## PakFactor

Falcon26 said:


> I remember you from that forum, as well. Great memories and times. Rest In Peace to Munir.





Signalian said:


> I can vaguely remember his name, Paguma Larvata.



I left that form when I started University, I was DragonKing on there I remember POC, LULLDAPULL and all them guys. That forum was on another level, lol.

Also I was PakSniper on this forum as well -- but lost password and was gone for years until last year.

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## Khan vilatey

ali_raza said:


> i came a little late like in 2006
> but we were discussing grippen still
> and mmrca was just dubbed mother of all deals
> it was soo much discussed to death that we use to get sad ab kia bane ga
> indians use to say laughingly that if iaf chose f16 anyhow we r taking ethopian nationality lol
> good old days





PakFactor said:


> I left that form when I started University, I was DragonKing on there I remember POC, LULLDAPULL and all them guys. That forum was on another level, lol.
> 
> Also I was PakSniper on this forum as well -- but lost password and was gone for years until last year.


pak sniper I remember you brother we battled so many time together lol

kv

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> LULLDAPULL
> 
> That guy... Lol We had thick skins back in the day, but that guy still triggered everyone (including himself at times).
> 
> He was definitely crass, but in hindsight, 75% of what he said about the state of our economy and governance was correct. I also remember how much effort it took to get that guy banned rofl.
> 
> There was also Hellraiser. I think I have Psychosaint on FB -- his real name is Zeeshan. IIRC the guy was a legit Pak Army jawan who graduated into becoming an officer.


Someone told me he was Iranian Baloch but I agree with he was psycho


----------



## mingle

One ID was Kim un jong Hater one mod ID WAS Neo

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## KaiserX

mingle said:


> Someone told me he was Iranian Baloch but I agree with he was psycho



Def a pyscho. Would compare Iranian airforce vs PAF and brag about how the Iranians F-14s and Mig-29s had BVR while none of our F-16s did lol man how so much has changed in a decade.


----------



## PakFactor

Khan vilatey said:


> pak sniper I remember you brother we battled so many time together lol
> 
> kv



We sure did bro. 

Great times, man so many people have gone silent due to real life in the last decade etc. I used to call Indians wilder beasts back in the days

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## PakFactor

mingle said:


> Someone told me he was Iranian Baloch but I agree with he was psycho





KaiserX said:


> Def a pyscho. Would compare Iranian airforce vs PAF and brag about how the Iranians F-14s and Mig-29s had BVR while none of our F-16s did lol man how so much has changed in a decade.



He’s still active on some forums and news sites if you search his name of google. He was a lost soul to be honest.

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## Xone

where is the moderator? all above discussion has gone in completely another direction, better take this to another caption please, the discussion here should remain to its starting caption Please. I would love to describe present talks as *Golden memories* so better start a new thread by this name of this caption and shift all going on most cherished memories there. these memories are so sweet, these last forever and refresh you whenever you recall them.


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## Rashid Mahmood

*Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts.*

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## redgriffin

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> How about a private sub-forum on this forum with the oldies? Call it the '32 F-16 Club'


If it happens then include me as well. My handle hasn't changed since ages tough I have become less than active over the last 8 or so years.

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## Bilal.

There was lulldapull and then there was Sinopak.... you would lose half your blood debating with him.

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## Khan vilatey

Okay starting a new thread in the general part 

pakdef and pakistanidefence A salute to warriors of the past


----------



## Khan vilatey

Thread created at 





__





pakdef and pakistanidefence A salute to warriors past and lost


About 20 years ago there were a few Pakistani defence forums like Pakistanidefenceforum and pakdef. These forums gave us the opportunity to begin our journey to defend Pakistan in the virtual world. When we all started talking JF-17 / super 7 was a rumors, alkhalid had just come into the army...



defence.pk





Kv

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## Blacklight

Rashid Mahmood said:


> *Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts.*


Used to be the topic. Not anymore. Fatiha parhlijyae.

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## Thorough Pro

Pakistan never "begged" for the carrier-based E-2 Hawkeye! 
In fact, the US offered to sell E-2C Hawkeye which we refused because we wanted E-3 Sentry.




Khan vilatey said:


> 20 years or so ago there used to be a place called the Pakistanidefenceforum. Back then the PDF was for mature folks where serious discussions used to happen Usman Shabir was a great source of information for us all. I remember back then we used to pray and hope that Pakistan get AWACS and we begged America for the carrier based E-2 Hawkeye when India got the phalcons. Then Mushraf happened forcing us to To get eireyes and Chinese zdk 03. We went from one to 7~ 8, now we have 11 or more, I remember the first flight unofficial one of the JF-17 and the official one with a painT scheme of the Jf-17. Now Mashallah we have 150+ , with two seater version and block 3 is on the horizon , we have aerial refueling and so much more.
> 
> how things have changed. How Allah has been beneficent and merciful.
> 
> I do not think we need more rather it maybe be focal to upgrade existing assets especially the Zdk-03 to getter higher range and more connectivity capability. We could invest the money on more integration , better air defence and more
> 
> kv

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## Khan vilatey

Thorough Pro said:


> Pakistan never "begged" for the carrier-based E-2 Hawkeye!
> In fact, the US offered to sell E-2C Hawkeye which we refused because we wanted E-3 Sentry.


Could be, we were so desperate back in the day ...... well good we did not get any of the sanctions prone stuff

kv


----------



## Xone

what are the details and differences of Saad 2000 Erieye and the Chinese AWACS system, why Pakistan opted for more Erieye than Chinese Awacs?
Can both communicate with each other? 
do their radars use the same frequency spectrum or a different band?

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## Thorough Pro

Not sure about the desperation part but we wanted to take advantage of the Afghan war (Soviet Jet intrusions into Pakistan). I think we should have accepted the E-2C as it would have propelled PAF into the AWACS era 3 decades earlier than we actually did and indirectly helped China in developing their own platforms much earlier and with better insight into western systems. 




Khan vilatey said:


> Could be, we were so desperate back in the day ...... well good we did not get any of the sanctions prone stuff
> 
> kv


----------



## Khan vilatey

Thorough Pro said:


> Not sure about the desperation part but we wanted to take advantage of the Afghan war (Soviet Jet intrusions into Pakistan). I think we should have accepted the E-2C as it would have propelled PAF into the AWACS era 3 decades earlier than we actually did and indirectly helped China in developing their own platforms much earlier and with better insight into western systems.



I could be wrong here but my understanding was that the e -2 (naval aircraft) was offers for the first time to Musharraf As part of war on terror in 2003 he wisely decided to go for eireye and zdk-03. The air force was against the zdk-03 

kv


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## Thorough Pro

No not in Musharraf's era, that was in early to mid-eighties in Zia's time.



Khan vilatey said:


> I could be wrong here but my understanding was that the e -2 (naval aircraft) was offers for the first time to Musharraf As part of war on terror in 2003 he wisely decided to go for eireye and zdk-03. The air force was against the zdk-03
> 
> kv

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## air marshal



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## Dazzler

The workhorse that works over time.

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## PanzerKiel



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## nomi007



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## Windjammer



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## Yasser76

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 679998



Beautiful yaar


----------



## I S I

Khan vilatey said:


> well good we did not get any of the sanctions prone stuff


ehem


----------



## Khan vilatey

I S I said:


> ehem


Please practice social distancing.....wear a mask and if you have a soar throat please refrain from posting on this forum  

sorry could not resist
K

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## HaMoTZeMaS

Is there any use of stealth AEWCs


----------



## araz

HaMoTZeMaS said:


> Is there any use of stealth AEWCs


They dont go on the-front line so possibly a waste of effort. With a huge radar they would shine like a beacon anyways.
My 2 paisas worth.
A

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## aliyusuf

HaMoTZeMaS said:


> Is there any use of stealth AEWCs


In my humble opinion, it would be useful in as much you would have your eyes in the sky which the enemy won't be able to detect without some difficulty (i.e. until too late). But it should have LPI sensors like AESA and shouldn't come at too much of an additional cost.

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## vizier

aliyusuf said:


> In my humble opinion, it would be useful in as much you would have your eyes in the sky which the enemy won't be able to detect without some difficulty (i.e. until too late). But it should have LPI sensors like AESA and shouldn't come at too much of an additional cost.



One lower cost option is to use aesa blimps tethered to the ground.. It can be detected but there can be many decoy higher reflector smaller blimps around complicating the target for enemy aircraft. 







Another option is not a B2 bomber copy but a propeller pusher delta wing body like a larger version of the one below. It would at least be semi-stealthy if the propeller blades are curved & ram painted. It can be an uav and removing the pilot cabin and there can be a long sideways+forward looking aesa radar on top at the place of the pilot cockpit.

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## Tomcats

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1319197983687127040


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## air marshal



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## mshan44



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## time pass

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 686339



Anyone have an idea how many of these EW aircrafts we have in active service.....heard recently that PAF purchased few more such aircrafts (Falcon DA - 20) to be converted in EW....

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## Ali_Baba

The Boeing 737 AEW&C- *E-7A Wedgetail* is by far the best platform in the world right now. If Pakistan can "buy" any platform from the US as it is "still" considered a non-nato military allie, ie it is prepared to pay full dollars for it(or F16s as numerous senators in the US have said), then should it not buy this 1 or 2 units of this platform to complement the current fleet, support the F16s better and stop the Indians from getting it? India will not buy this platform if PAF operates it also.









Boeing 737 AEW&C - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Some good use of the platform recently.









Turkish Air Force Used E-7A Peace Eagle To Hunt And Destroy S-300 Using TB2 Drones


With the outbreak of the last war in Nagorno-Karabakh, everyone expected it to unfold like the one that ended in 1994, with Armenia’s landslide victory. However, in terms of weapons and …




www.globaldefensecorp.com





Surely, the risk versus reward ratio on this makes it a more worthwhile acquistion than F16s?

If India purchases this platform, it will hurt PAF far far more than any other acquistion that India can make right now. It will complement the Rafales perfectly to provide network centric warfare capabilities which it currently lacks... it will negate alot of the work the PAF has done in the last 10years by equalising the arm arms interms of an integrated, network war fighting capabilities.


----------



## Akh1112

Ali_Baba said:


> The Boeing 737 AEW&C- *E-7A Wedgetail* is by far the best platform in the world right now. If Pakistan can "buy" any platform from the US as it is "still" considered a non-nato military allie, ie it is prepared to pay full dollars for it(or F16s as numerous senators in the US have said), then should it not buy this 1 or 2 units of this platform to complement the current fleet, support the F16s better and stop the Indians from getting it? India will not buy this platform if PAF operates it also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boeing 737 AEW&C - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some good use of the platform recently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkish Air Force Used E-7A Peace Eagle To Hunt And Destroy S-300 Using TB2 Drones
> 
> 
> With the outbreak of the last war in Nagorno-Karabakh, everyone expected it to unfold like the one that ended in 1994, with Armenia’s landslide victory. However, in terms of weapons and …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globaldefensecorp.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Surely, the risk versus reward ratio on this makes it a more worthwhile acquistion than F16s?
> 
> If India purchases this platform, it will hurt PAF far far more than any other acquistion that India can make right now. It will complement the Rafales perfectly to provide network centric warfare capabilities which it currently lacks... it will negate alot of the work the PAF has done in the last 10years by equalising the arm arms interms of an integrated, network war fighting capabilities.


uh im pretty sure E2-D is the best awacs platform around, especially since the D variant incorporates a GaN based Phased Array which gives it the longest range of any awacs in the world.


----------



## waz

Akh1112 said:


> uh im pretty sure E2-D is the best awacs platform around, especially since the D variant incorporates a GaN based Phased Array which gives it the longest range of any awacs in the world.



God Almighty!

The E-2D's radar and identification friend or foe (IFF) system can detect targets at ranges in excess *of 345 miles (556 km)*










AeroWeb | E-2C/D Advanced Hawkeye


Information about the E-2C Hawkeye and E-2D Advanced Hawkeye, including the AN/APY-9 Radar and rotodome, T56 engines, production forecast, U.S. defense budget and spending, modifications, upgrades, RDT&E, and much more.




www.fi-aeroweb.com

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## Ali_Baba

Akh1112 said:


> uh im pretty sure E2-D is the best awacs platform around, especially since the D variant incorporates a GaN based Phased Array which gives it the longest range of any awacs in the world.



The E2-D platform is small and will not have the signal signal processing and computing performance available to it as the WedgeTail will have. It is not 'just' the radar transmitting energy that is important, it is also the associated signal processing and computing power to be able to extract as much information from the returned energy as possible that is also important. That is the advantage that the Wedgetail brings..

... alongside the much larger number of operator consoles to make decisions based on all that extra information...

The Indian's are using P8A's to monitor chinese and pakistani troop movements, that shows you how much additional capacity these larger platforms bring to the table and the P8A's were made for naval operations...


----------



## Akh1112

waz said:


> God Almighty!
> 
> The E-2D's radar and identification friend or foe (IFF) system can detect targets at ranges in excess *of 345 miles (556 km)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AeroWeb | E-2C/D Advanced Hawkeye
> 
> 
> Information about the E-2C Hawkeye and E-2D Advanced Hawkeye, including the AN/APY-9 Radar and rotodome, T56 engines, production forecast, U.S. defense budget and spending, modifications, upgrades, RDT&E, and much more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fi-aeroweb.com


Yep, in stop/stare mode the range jumps to 540nmi/1000km.







Ali_Baba said:


> The E2-D platform is small and will not have the signal signal processing and computing performance available to it as the WedgeTail will have. It is not 'just' the radar transmitting energy that is important, it is also the associated signal processing and computing power to be able to extract as much information from the returned energy as possible that is also important. That is the advantage that the Wedgetail brings..
> 
> ... alongside the much larger number of operator consoles to make decisions based on all that extra information...
> 
> The Indian's are using P8A's to monitor chinese and pakistani troop movements, that shows you how much additional capacity these larger platforms bring to the table and the P8A's were made for naval operations...




"
The E2-D platform is small and will not have the signal signal processing and computing performance available to it as the WedgeTail will have. It is not 'just' the radar transmitting energy that is important, it is also the associated signal processing and computing power to be able to extract as much information from the returned energy as possible that is also important. That is the advantage that the Wedgetail brings.."

Meh, this isnt really the case with modern electronics, you can pack alot more power in a smaller space now. Besides, they would not overspec the radar by such a margin without the processing power to back it up. In terms of operator consoles, sure, thats true to some extent i guess, but you can also make the other arguement that less operators consoles is better, less cost etc etc.

Lastly, in terms of using P8's to monitor Pak troop movements, ok? The PN used P3s to monitor insurgents also? Point being? You can do the same job with smaller platforms, i.e the ELINT King Airs the PA operates, or something like the SAAB Swordfish/globaleye, infact, the E2s are also capable of monitoring the ground situation, granted, this would be via their radar and ESM suite, as opposed to an EO sensor like the STAR SAFIRE of the P8, however, they are still capable of conducting the same role from standoff ranges.

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## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> Yep, in stop/stare mode the range jumps to 540nmi/1000km.
> 
> View attachment 686682
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "
> The E2-D platform is small and will not have the signal signal processing and computing performance available to it as the WedgeTail will have. It is not 'just' the radar transmitting energy that is important, it is also the associated signal processing and computing power to be able to extract as much information from the returned energy as possible that is also important. That is the advantage that the Wedgetail brings.."
> 
> Meh, this isnt really the case with modern electronics, you can pack alot more power in a smaller space now. Besides, they would not overspec the radar by such a margin without the processing power to back it up. In terms of operator consoles, sure, thats true to some extent i guess, but you can also make the other arguement that less operators consoles is better, less cost etc etc.
> 
> Lastly, in terms of using P8's to monitor Pak troop movements, ok? The PN used P3s to monitor insurgents also? Point being? You can do the same job with smaller platforms, i.e the ELINT King Airs the PA operates, or something like the SAAB Swordfish/globaleye, infact, the E2s are also capable of monitoring the ground situation, granted, this would be via their radar and ESM suite, as opposed to an EO sensor like the STAR SAFIRE of the P8, however, they are still capable of conducting the same role from standoff ranges.




Great posts, very knowledgeable. I would argue that if the Indians are forced to use P-8s to monitor Pak Army positions this is a massive waste of resources, and means a slightly easier time for PN. A job PA/PAF do with lighter and cheaper assets

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## NeptuneShadow

Hi, while I was just checking google map, I found these aircraft on karma airbase. One of them is of a pink color, which is not common. Please shed some light on these pics if possible.












Quality is not good sorry for it.

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## airbus101

Saab erieye2000

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## Neurath

I also sometimes check PAF airbases on google maps when I'm bored.
You can usually see F-16s, Mirages on the runway.


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## Muhammad Omar

It's Saab Erieye


----------



## The Eagle

NeptuneShadow said:


> Hi, while I was just checking google map, I found these aircraft on karma airbase. One of them is of a pink color, which is not common. Please shed some light on these pics if possible.
> 
> View attachment 689088
> 
> 
> View attachment 689089
> 
> 
> Quality is not good sorry for it.



No need to create separate thread for mere enquiry. Browse around and you can find information or at-least try to utilize existing thread.

Regards,

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## syed_yusuf

Did paf received all 3 new Saab 2000 aewcs ?


----------



## fitpOsitive

And then info provided in this thread was picked up by India and they arranged TTP for that. 

Thank you posters. 

Now we want a same thread for P8I.


----------



## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> And then info provided in this thread was picked up by India and they arranged TTP for that.
> 
> Thank you posters.
> 
> Now we want a same thread for P8I.


are you naive or stupid?

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## fitpOsitive

Path-Finder said:


> are you naive or stupid?


What do you think?


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## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> What do you think?


if i knew then i would have said it. because i don't know you. that is the reason why I asked!


----------



## fitpOsitive

Path-Finder said:


> if i knew then i would have said it. because i don't know you. that is the reason why I asked!


I am stupid.


----------



## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> I am stupid.


it is not chronic and can be cured.


----------



## fitpOsitive

Path-Finder said:


> it is not chronic and can be cured.


Ok then lets see what you have as cure...


----------



## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> Ok then lets see what you have as cure...


I am not sharing my cure, go through the the chasm of life and find your own cure.

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## SD 10

Path-Finder said:


> it is not chronic and can be cured.


seen punjab police do just that


----------



## air marshal



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## Sunny4pak

*PAF AWACS Fleet | PAF SAAB 2000 | PAF ZDK 03 Airborne Early Warning & Control System 2020*

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## Itachi

air marshal said:


>



Naval version or just regular?


----------



## nomi007



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## ghazi52

PHOTO RECONNAISSANCE OVER THE SIACHEN GLACIER

Turning past the 26,600-foot Nanga Parbat, two Photo Reconnaissance Mirage-IIIRPs head for the highest battle zone of the world, the Siachen glacier. Providing combat escort, a pair of watchful F-16s follow, while the operational crew in the DA-20 (foreground) ensure that the four fighters receive all the electronic support they need.

DA-20:
Wing Commander Masood Akhtar Pilot
Squadron Leader Aftab Iqbal Co-Pilot
Squadron Leader Ayaz-ul-Haque Controller
Squadron Leader Pervez A Khan Controller
Flight Lieutenant M Nawaz Electronics

Mirage-IIIRPs:
Flight Lieutenant Asad Lodhi
Flight Lieutenant Nasir Kamran

F-16s:
Wing Commander Shahzad Chaudhry
Squadron Leader Gul Abbas Mela

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## ghazi52

ZDK-03 Y8F-400 over Pak Navy Manora, Karachi

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## air marshal



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## Mustang-87

jaman_thakkar said:


> eyrie cannot be compared with phalcons...phalcons r way to advanced than eyries.eyries r suitable for small airforces.phalcons can easily jam the elctronics of eyrie and make it isolate from its ground based radars and PAF aircrafts.then it will be an easy target for IAF fighters.


Just wondering where is this dude nowadays???


jaman_thakkar said:


> well what to prove???PHALCON IS THE WORLDS MOST ADVANCED AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING SYSTEM...even more advanced than NATO's E-3 C sentry which uses machanically rotating antenna(rotodome) so let alone eyrie...
> 
> 
> this link will prove that phalcon is the worlds most advanced awacs.(read carefully)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/phalcon.htm





jaman_thakkar said:


> The link I posted just to show that it is the most advanced early warning system.and it is clearly written there...besides I have lost so many sources which I always keep in DOC files becuz of the virus in my PC.but according to those sources phalcon has tremandous ability to jam the electronics of the most of the awacses.this was the main reason that america opposed isreal from selling it to china.this was the main reason that india gave up the idea to go for russian mainstay awacs as it could be jammed by E-3 which is in saudia airforce and its possibility to get into PAF's hands during the war.anyway if i get some free time from my *busy schedule *i will surely search again for those sources...

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## Ali_Baba

It would be interesting, if at some point in the near future if the PAF went for the Eryieye ER sensor and got it mounted on a Embraer Lineage 1000 jet, it would have a platform with very high levels of persistence and monitoring. 

Or, have chinese sensors mounted on a Embraer Lineage 1000 jet. Have the advantage of the integration the best of chinese eletronics with the low running cost of Embraer jet.

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## AMRAAM

Don't worry, he will have some more counter claims. You can expect anything from them. They have their own imaginations.


Mustang-87 said:


> Just wondering where is this dude nowadays???

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## Imran Khan

Mustang-87 said:


> Just wondering where is this dude nowadays???


jahan bhi hoga IAF ko maan behen ki galiyaan de raha hoga .

it was not only him it was mindset of most indians thoese days sir they were saying PAF can not even fly from airbases to counter india . we have read so much of BS here from 2005 to 2019 .

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## Falcon26

Mustang-87 said:


> Just wondering where is this dude nowadays???



Probably in some call center, still in hiding and recovering from all the bubbles PAF bursted on feb 26/27 2019.

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## Mustang-87

Imran Khan said:


> jahan bhi hoga IAF ko maan behen ki galiyaan de raha hoga .
> 
> it was not only him it was mindset of most indians thoese days sir they were saying PAF can not even fly from airbases to counter india . we have read so much of BS here from 2005 to 2019 .


Yeah 😂 i also read some old discussions like su-30 will track f-16 at a range of 400km and will shoot it down with its 200 km range bvr missiles lol


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## Imran Khan

Mustang-87 said:


> Yeah 😂 i also read some old discussions like su-30 will track f-16 at a range of 400km and will shoot it down with its 200 km range bvr missiles lol


BOSS D K kuch smajhty hi nhi thy

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## Caprxl

Imran Khan said:


> BOSS D K kuch smajhty hi nhi thy



Let them be, Good for us


----------



## air marshal

Itachi said:


> Naval version or just regular?


Nope


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## ziaulislam

Mustang-87 said:


> Yeah 😂 i also read some old discussions like su-30 will track f-16 at a range of 400km and will shoot it down with its 200 km range bvr missiles lol


Su 30 was a mini awec hencr why IAF doesnt need AWECs
Su 30 could track all the targets at 400km range and act like an AWEC

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## Mustang-87

ziaulislam said:


> Su 30 was a mini awec hencr why IAF doesnt need AWECs
> Su 30 could track all the targets at 400km range and act like an AWEC


Raptor of east

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## Vapour

ghazi52 said:


> PHOTO RECONNAISSANCE OVER THE SIACHEN GLACIER
> 
> Turning past the 26,600-foot Nanga Parbat, two Photo Reconnaissance Mirage-IIIRPs head for the highest battle zone of the world, the Siachen glacier. Providing combat escort, a pair of watchful F-16s follow, while the operational crew in the DA-20 (foreground) ensure that the four fighters receive all the electronic support they need.
> 
> DA-20:
> Wing Commander Masood Akhtar Pilot
> Squadron Leader Aftab Iqbal Co-Pilot
> Squadron Leader Ayaz-ul-Haque Controller
> Squadron Leader Pervez A Khan Controller
> Flight Lieutenant M Nawaz Electronics
> 
> Mirage-IIIRPs:
> Flight Lieutenant Asad Lodhi
> Flight Lieutenant Nasir Kamran
> 
> F-16s:
> Wing Commander Shahzad Chaudhry
> Squadron Leader Gul Abbas Mela
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 694954



Should bomb Indian positions in Siachin.

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## Areesh

Mustang-87 said:


> Yeah 😂 i also read some old discussions like su-30 will track f-16 at a range of 400km and will shoot it down with its 200 km range bvr missiles lol



Forget about shooting down f16. None of IAF aircraft was able to fire even a single missile on any of Pakistani aircrafts

In the end iaf had to give awards for dodging missiles fired by PAF F16s

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## Ahmet Pasha

Ali_Baba said:


> It would be interesting, if at some point in the near future if the PAF went for the Eryieye ER sensor and got it mounted on a Embraer Lineage 1000 jet, it would have a platform with very high levels of persistence and monitoring.
> 
> Or, have chinese sensors mounted on a Embraer Lineage 1000 jet. Have the advantage of the integration the best of chinese eletronics with the low running cost of Embraer jet.


Wise suggestion.


Imran Khan said:


> jahan bhi hoga IAF ko maan behen ki galiyaan de raha hoga .
> 
> it was not only him it was mindset of most indians thoese days sir they were saying PAF can not even fly from airbases to counter india . we have read so much of BS here from 2005 to 2019 .


Woh to pura pura article likhtey phirte the bhai.

Simple si post ka reply 100 par mushtamil dissertation ki surat mein milta tha.

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## alphapak

The 3 new new awacs that Pak is getting is that the erieye or globaleye?

Should PAF be considering globaleye instead of erieye?

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## Path-Finder

alphapak said:


> The 3 new new awacs that Pak is getting is that the erieye or globaleye?
> 
> Should PAF be considering globaleye instead of erieye?


no they will be same as the existing Erieye and not global eye. global eye uses Leonardo components which Pakistan can go to Leonardo and obtain the components and do its own 'global eye' type upgrade.

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## Yasser76

Path-Finder said:


> no they will be same as the existing Erieye and not global eye. global eye uses Leonardo components which Pakistan can go to Leonardo and obtain the components and do its own 'global eye' type upgrade.



Yes, after SAAB wanted $500 million to reconstruct damaged Erieyes and PAF did it for less than $50 million I do not think we will be rushing back to Saab in a hurry. 

PAF learnt a lot reconstructing those planes so will be in a good position to carry out upgrades by ourselves, maybe with Saab acting as consultants

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## Ali_Baba

PAF should get the Erieye ER radar and get it mounted onto a Embraer Lineage 1000 ER series as the platform. Will provide a lot of persistance in the air

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## GriffinsRule

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, after SAAB wanted $500 million to reconstruct damaged Erieyes and PAF did it for less than $50 million I do not think we will be rushing back to Saab in a hurry.
> 
> PAF learnt a lot reconstructing those planes so will be in a good position to carry out upgrades by ourselves, maybe with Saab acting as consultants


Don't think your number is right. But more than saving money, the experience and confidence gained was invaluable

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## Zarvan

I was just watching this show again. And was hearing former boss Sohail Aman talk. And he clearly states that two AWACS were damaged in terror attack in Kamra. So people will you rest the theory now of three AWACS being damaged.


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## GriffinsRule

Zarvan said:


> I was just watching this show again. And was hearing former boss Sohail Aman talk. And he clearly states that two AWACS were damaged in terror attack in Kamra. So people will you rest the theory now of three AWACS being damaged.


Two damaged, one destroyed. PAF official history


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## Zarvan

GriffinsRule said:


> Two damaged, one destroyed. PAF official history


When PAF officially said that. No one has shown me the statement.


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## ghazi52

Picture from the ceremony in Linköping 21 Oct 2009, showing Karl Lyth, Business Unit Manager, Saab Surveillance Systems and Perci Virjee, Air Commodore, Pakistan Air Force.

Photographer: Lasse Hejdenberg.

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## nomi007



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## ghazi52



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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 712073



Old warhorses like the Mirages, have served Pakistan well. Hopefully Pakistan can move onto the HAVA SOJ and Special Missions Aircraft soon, once those platforms are available to Pakistan,.

Very good old thread on this topic : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkey-electronic-warfare-technology.548897/

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## Zarvan

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 712073


We need lot of these. Current number is not enough. We need lot more of these beasts. The real hero behind 27th February showdown. 

@Tipu 7 @Windjammer

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## ghazi52



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## nomi007



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## ghazi52

*Eyes on the Skies 24/7 Alert*

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## iLION12345_1

What Radar does the ZDK-03 use? Is it a PESA or an AESA?

@Windjammer might you be able to answer?


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## The Raven

iLION12345_1 said:


> What Radar does the ZDK-03 use? Is it a PESA or an AESA?
> 
> @Windjammer might you be able to answer?



PESA


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## MIRauf

iLION12345_1 said:


> What Radar does the ZDK-03 use? Is it a PESA or an AESA?
> 
> @Windjammer might you be able to answer?


Original PESA, suppose to be upgraded to AESA capable, however still retaining Rotating DISH.


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## nomi007

Mirage Rebuild Factory also maintaining EW aircrafts.

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## Reichmarshal

It's called the french connection.

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## ghazi52



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## Metal 0-1

Both are Dassualt aircraft so make sense.


nomi007 said:


> View attachment 720698
> View attachment 720699
> 
> 
> Mirage Rebuild Factory also maintaining EW aircrafts.

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Air Force SAAB-2000 Arieye over Centaurus Mall Islamabad in reference to Pakistan Day Fly Past rehearsals ...

P.C :- Instagram/Euzarsiph_Islam

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## FuturePAF

With the PN acquiring Embrarer aircraft for the MPA role, and the limited altitude the Erieyes can fly, perhaps it is time to buy some Embrarers for the PAF and add on a radar similar to the MESA radar on E-7/Peace eagle/wedgetail Awacs the Turks fly for some aircraft and equip other with the Havasoj suite for EW. Radar range out to 600 km, may mean being able to see stealthier planes further out or those issuing advanced jamming like the Rafales. 4 of each could really be significant in the event of a major conflict; allow the PAF to maintain air superiority in Pakistani air space, and allow them to make aerial incursion in strength if the need arises, despite the SAM threat.

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## khanasifm

FuturePAF said:


> With the PN acquiring Embrarer aircraft for the MPA role, and the limited altitude the Erieyes can fly, perhaps it is time to buy some Embrarers for the PAF and add on a radar similar to the MESA radar on E-7/Peace eagle/wedgetail Awacs the Turks fly for some aircraft and equip other with the Havasoj suite for EW. Radar range out to 600 km, may mean being able to see stealthier planes further out or those issuing advanced jamming like the Rafales. 4 of each could really be significant in the event of a major conflict; allow the PAF to maintain air superiority in Pakistani air space, and allow them to make aerial incursion in strength if the need arises, despite the SAM threat.



😉 Embraer China




__





Portal Embraer







embraer.com

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## FuturePAF

khanasifm said:


> 😉 Embraer China
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Portal Embraer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> embraer.com



Actually there are probably a lot of lightly used airliners that could be acquired for a discount these days. If the Turks use their knowledge of their MESA radar to make a similar system, scaled to fit an Embraer, it might be the best option for Pakistan.


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## khanasifm

FuturePAF said:


> Actually there are probably a lot of lightly used airliners that could be acquired for a discount these days. If the Turks use their knowledge of their MESA radar to make a similar system, scaled to fit an Embraer, it might be the best option for Pakistan.



Nothing new except perhaps da20 replacement or upgrade for ew 









Flying for the Dark Side - Royal Aeronautical Society


TIM ROBINSON joins the crew of VADER 61, a Cobham Special Mission Falcon 20 on a mission providing sophisticated operational readiness training to RAF fighter pilots.




www.aerosociety.com








__





Norway to Replace Ageing P-3 MPA & DA-20 Falcon EW Aircraft with Five Boeing P-8A Poseidon


Norway to Replace Ageing P-3 MPA & DA-20 Falcon EW Aircraft with Five Boeing P-8A Poseidon




www.navyrecognition.com

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## FuturePAF

khanasifm said:


> Nothing new except perhaps da20 replacement or upgrade for ew
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flying for the Dark Side - Royal Aeronautical Society
> 
> 
> TIM ROBINSON joins the crew of VADER 61, a Cobham Special Mission Falcon 20 on a mission providing sophisticated operational readiness training to RAF fighter pilots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aerosociety.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Norway to Replace Ageing P-3 MPA & DA-20 Falcon EW Aircraft with Five Boeing P-8A Poseidon
> 
> 
> Norway to Replace Ageing P-3 MPA & DA-20 Falcon EW Aircraft with Five Boeing P-8A Poseidon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.navyrecognition.com



For the DA-20 replacement we should go with the Havasoj from Turkey. The Turks operate the S-400 and are preparing to deal with French and Greek Rafales, as well as have considerable knowledge of the F-35 (and by extension EW capabilities). They are probably the best source to get a DA-20 replacement.

What I was proposing is to add a high level of Awacs to improve the look first capabilities of the PAF. I read somewhere that the PAF erieyes can only operate up to 25,000 feet at crushing altitude; which limits the radar horizon to a max of 300 km (calculation is square root of altitude x 1.22 will give you the distance in miles) while a plane flying at 40,000 feet could see a 100 km further. With a similar set of more powerful sensors, as on the Turkish Awacs, an aircraft at that altitude could have the means to see low observable and EW jamming aircraft. But in order to do that, that PAF could need a platform that can fly that high for a sustained amount of time, at an affordable price. This maybe a long term aspiration and just food for thought for the next decade.

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## nomi007

Metal 0-1 said:


> Both are Dassualt aircraft so make sense.


This factory also repair Il-78 Midas refueling probes in past.

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## Ali_Baba

FuturePAF said:


> For the DA-20 replacement we should go with the Havasoj from Turkey. The Turks operate the S-400 and are preparing to deal with French and Greek Rafales, as well as have considerable knowledge of the F-35 (and by extension EW capabilities). They are probably the best source to get a DA-20 replacement.
> 
> What I was proposing is to add a high level of Awacs to improve the look first capabilities of the PAF. I read somewhere that the PAF erieyes can only operate up to 25,000 feet at crushing altitude; which limits the radar horizon to a max of 300 km (calculation is square root of altitude x 1.22 will give you the distance in miles) while a plane flying at 40,000 feet could see a 100 km further. With a similar set of more powerful sensors, as on the Turkish Awacs, an aircraft at that altitude could have the means to see low observable and EW jamming aircraft. But in order to do that, that PAF could need a platform that can fly that high for a sustained amount of time, at an affordable price. This maybe a long term aspiration and just food for thought for the next decade.



I agree on HAVSOJ for PAF if Turkey approves, they are the ideal DA-20 EW replacement.

I think PAF can mount the Erieye-ER on Embraer now to get that extra range if it wanted. It may, or maybe not in their plans. China has a lot of projects in the works as far as AWACs goes, and maybe PAF has their eye on a under-development chinese platform to mount on a Embraer?

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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2906208566264579

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Eyes in the skies

Shaanxi ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle of Pakistan Air Force

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## ghazi52

2021 Pakistan Day

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## khanasifm

__





MESA - Radartutorial







www.radartutorial.eu


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## Incog_nito

I guess these Saad-2000 AEW&Cs are integrated with the JF-17s?

I think PAF should bring more of such AWACs in order to keep eye on the stuff going beyond borders.
But we also need good Air Defence (Low, Medium, & High altitude) along with Satellite Surveillance.

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## iLION12345_1

They should consider upgrading the ZDK-03 with fixed AESA radars as found on the newer Chinese AWACS. I think it is feasible. Will extend their life and usefulness.

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## araz

iLION12345_1 said:


> They should consider upgrading the ZDK-03 with fixed AESA radars as found on the newer Chinese AWACS. I think it is feasible. Will extend their life and usefulness.


There was one of the ZDK03 in China a few years ago for potential upgrade. It was there for nearly 18months but then nothing has been heard since then.
A

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## Windjammer

SAAB Erieye Operators during ACES Meet 2021 Exercise.

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## Scorpiooo

Paf seems to more satisfied with saab AEW&C then Chinese till now,

Future seems to more focused in saab based aews&c , lets hope to opt for globleeye as well in near future
Paf seems to more satisfied with saab AEW&C then Chinese till now,

Future seems to more focused in saab based aews&c , lets hope to opt for globleeye as well in near future

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## syed_yusuf

Why paf don't like ke03

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## ali_raza

by just changing saab airframe they can increase its range by more then 150km
earth curvature is biggest limitation 
flying at 30k feet turboprop vs 44k feet flying jet
idk why they ignore this capability for low cos flying

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## Philip the Arab

Scorpiooo said:


> Paf seems to more satisfied with saab AEW&C then Chinese till now,
> 
> Future seems to more focused in saab based aews&c , lets hope to opt for globleeye as well in near future
> Paf seems to more satisfied with saab AEW&C then Chinese till now,
> 
> Future seems to more focused in saab based aews&c , lets hope to opt for globleeye as well in near future


GlobalEye is a beast, UAE bought 5 of them which makes for a huge force multiplier and constant AWACS coverage against all threats.

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## ali_raza

Philip the Arab said:


> GlobalEye is a beast, UAE bought 5 of them which makes for a huge force multiplier and constant AWACS coverage against all threats.


true

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## Scorpiooo

Philip the Arab said:


> GlobalEye is a beast, UAE bought 5 of them which makes for a huge force multiplier and constant AWACS coverage against all threats.


Yes it is, UAE can afford any thing they want .. limited bughat force like PAF is very difficult

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## Beast

Scorpiooo said:


> Paf seems to more satisfied with saab AEW&C then Chinese till now,
> 
> Future seems to more focused in saab based aews&c , lets hope to opt for globleeye as well in near future
> Paf seems to more satisfied with saab AEW&C then Chinese till now,
> 
> Future seems to more focused in saab based aews&c , lets hope to opt for globleeye as well in near future


Nonsense. Don't spew nonsense you have no idea.

Saab awew/awacs has blind spot. Even the Chinese air force has stopped such project and go for the KJ-500 with 360 degrees scanning..

Chinese awacs using the Y-8F are bigger and more capable. Look at your saab awacs interior, it's so cram and space for further upgrade are very limited. Living condition is terrible too due to small limited space. ZDK-03 being bigger has more loiter time and crew has good rest with rotating shift due to better living space. The AESA of ZDKis far bigger and can scan further for detection.

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## ghazi52



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## Aryeih Leib

Philip the Arab said:


> GlobalEye is a beast, UAE bought 5 of them which makes for a huge force multiplier and constant AWACS coverage against all threats.



Hackers Compromised this awacs put it's data on sale on dark net .


----------



## Philip the Arab

Aryeih Leib said:


> Hackers Compromised this awacs put it's data on sale on dark net .


No they didnt, they got hardware of the plane no software its useless. Bombadier doesnt have software only plane and radar hardware and that doesn't provide much data.

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## iLION12345_1

Beast said:


> Nonsense. Don't spew nonsense you have no idea.
> 
> Saab awew/awacs has blind spot. Even the Chinese air force has stopped such project and go for the KJ-500 with 360 degrees scanning..
> 
> Chinese awacs using the Y-8F are bigger and more capable. Look at your saab awacs interior, it's so cram and space for further upgrade are very limited. Living condition is terrible too due to small limited space. ZDK-03 being bigger has more loiter time and crew has good rest with rotating shift due to better living space. The AESA of ZDKis far bigger and can scan further for detection.


ZDK-03 does not have an AESA radar. It has a rotating PESA. Erieye is superior to it as a radar but being a wedge design it does not have 360 degree coverage. Chinese KJ200 and 500 series use a circular AESA design which may be the optimal solution, since it is AESA with 360 degree coverage. ZDK-03 can be fitted with such a radar too, something I hope Pakistan considers in the future, since The platform itself is superior due to longer range. 
Saab-2000 is fine as a platform for AWACS, the space or upgradation issues you mentioned are not actual issues.

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## ali_raza

iLION12345_1 said:


> ZDK-03 does not have an AESA radar. It has a rotating PESA. Erieye is superior to it as a radar but being a wedge design it does not have 360 degree coverage. Chinese KJ200 and 500 series use a circular AESA design which may be the optimal solution, since it is AESA with 360 degree coverage. ZDK-03 can be fitted with such a radar too, something I hope Pakistan considers in the future, since The platform itself is superior due to longer range.
> Saab-2000 is fine as a platform for AWACS, the space or upgradation issues you mentioned are not actual issues.


wht about we upgraded saab to a jet powered plane


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## iLION12345_1

ali_raza said:


> wht about we upgraded saab to a jet powered plane


Saab 2000 is the name of the plane, the system on it is the eriye, similarly Y8600F is the name of the aircraft and ZDK-03 is the name of the system on it.

It may be feasible to swap the Radar system on the Y8600F from the rotating PESA to a fixed dish AESA in the future, but currently both these radars are very good and ample for our needs. Pakistan has a rather large AWACS fleet of 12, so range and uptime shouldn’t be that big of a problem.

It will likely not be feasible to swap the Erieyes on to a jet powered plane because that would mean converting and entirely new aircraft into an AWACS system after removing the system from an already configured aircraft. The Saab-2000 is a good enough platform for now. (Or if you meant turn the Saabs themselves into jet powered aircraft, I don’t think that’s possible without redesigning the entire thing)

Though going into the next decade, Pakistan will need to start looking into replacing turboprop AWACS with jet powered ones. The navy is already doing it with its Sea Sultan systems to replace P3C Orions.

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## ghazi52

Flying Radar

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## ali_raza

iLION12345_1 said:


> Saab 2000 is the name of the plane, the system on it is the eriye, similarly Y8600F is the name of the aircraft and ZDK-03 is the name of the system on it.
> 
> It may be feasible to swap the Radar system on the Y8600F from the rotating PESA to a fixed dish AESA in the future, but currently both these radars are very good and ample for our needs. Pakistan has a rather large AWACS fleet of 12, so range and uptime shouldn’t be that big of a problem.
> 
> It will likely not be feasible to swap the Erieyes on to a jet powered plane because that would mean converting and entirely new aircraft into an AWACS system after removing the system from an already configured aircraft. The Saab-2000 is a good enough platform for now. (Or if you meant turn the Saabs themselves into jet powered aircraft, I don’t think that’s possible without redesigning the entire thing)
> 
> Though going into the next decade, Pakistan will need to start looking into replacing turboprop AWACS with jet powered ones. The navy is already doing it with its Sea Sultan systems to replace P3C Orions.


the thing i heard from a credible source is that biggest limiting factor in erieeye range is not flying high enough for which jet is required

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## iLION12345_1

ali_raza said:


> the thing i heard from a credible source is that biggest limiting factor in erieeye range is not flying high enough for which jet is required


many countries still use turboprop powered AWACS, the PAF checked the platform before it picked it. By the time we need to upgrade, the PAF will already be on that, both Chinese and European sources are open to us. Pakistan has been working on its own radar tech too. The service ceiling is lower than jet powered ones, but not low enough that it could not track enemy aircraft. After all, that’s exactly what they did on 27th February.

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## Blacklight

ali_raza said:


> the thing i heard from a credible source is that biggest limiting factor in erieeye range is not flying high enough for which jet is required


Jet powered aircrafts have other advantages as well, but given how easily peoples ego gets hurt, its best left unsaid.

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## Cookie Monster

Blacklight said:


> Jet powered aircrafts have other advantages as well, but given how easily peoples ego gets hurt, its best left unsaid.


All in good time. IMO it is a bit much to expect PAF to upgrade all erieyes to jet powered AWACS...
...it would be a waste of the previous investment to an extent...and not to mention using funds for that would mean not being able to address other more pressing needs.

In the future though...I hope all three services make efforts to standardize the platforms they use as the basis of whatever specialized asset they are going to induct.

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## Windjammer



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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> Jet powered aircrafts have other advantages as well, but given how easily peoples ego gets hurt, its best left unsaid.


u r right 
people are too stuck there heads in sand
case in point general electric engines vs pratt engines
which was clearly more advanced and more rugged and packed more punch

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> Jet powered aircrafts have other advantages as well, but given how easily peoples ego gets hurt, its best left unsaid.


@Blacklight. Whats the reason in your opnion PAF not going for jet powered options


ali_raza said:


> u r right
> people are too stuck there heads in sand
> case in point general electric engines vs pratt engines
> which was clearly more advanced and more rugged and packed more punch


Problem


ali_raza said:


> u r right
> people are too stuck there heads in sand
> case in point general electric engines vs pratt engines
> which was clearly more advanced and more rugged and packed more punch


Problem with our BaBas (decision makers) is there mind set .. that do not change with time .. they remain in past when they were young ..they want to stick with those .. even when new and better options are available

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## Blacklight

Scorpiooo said:


> @Blacklight. Whats the reason in your opnion PAF not going for jet powered options





Blacklight said:


> Jet powered aircrafts have other advantages as well, but *given how easily peoples ego gets hurt, its best left unsaid.*

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## Bossman

Scorpiooo said:


> @Blacklight. Whats the reason in your opnion PAF not going for jet powered options
> 
> Problem
> 
> Problem with our BaBas (decision makers) is there mind set .. that do not change with time .. they remain in past when they were young ..they want to stick with those .. even when new and better options are available


What makes you guys such experts? Turbo props have much lower operating cost and longer loiter time. Plus for Pakistan’s geography turbo props are better. Turbo props are jets engines with props.


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## m52k85

Blacklight said:


> Jet powered aircrafts have other advantages as well, but given how easily peoples ego gets hurt, its best left unsaid.


Dear sir, please dont let peoples egos matter, children will always be passionate about their interest, on this forum that is patriotism. That shouldnt stop the experienced and well informed from speaking sanity. We have had too many informed members leave over the years because of this reason. Thanks.

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## ghazi52



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## Zarvan

Any chance of 4 to 6 of these in near future.

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## syed_yusuf

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 749533
> 
> Any chance of 4 to 6 of these in near future.


I hope not, PAF should invest in next gen aewcs

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## Aryeih Leib

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 749533
> 
> Any chance of 4 to 6 of these in near future.


Instead PAF should invest more in zdk platform upgrade it ....


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## Zarvan

syed_yusuf said:


> I hope not, PAF should invest in next gen aewcs


That is global eye. That is not the one which we use. What next generation AWACs you are referring to ?


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## ziaulislam

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 749533
> 
> Any chance of 4 to 6 of these in near future.


guess 12 are enough..we need more fighters

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## The Raven

Zarvan said:


> That is global eye. That is not the one which we use. What next generation AWACs you are referring to ?



Not according to some posters on here...the same delusional posters who are spreading false news about every platform under the sun arriving in Pakistan claim that we are already operating the global eye radar on our Saab 2000s.

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## Philip the Arab

syed_yusuf said:


> I hope not, PAF should invest in next gen aewcs


This is a next gen AWACS that UAEAF will depend on for air superiority for the next 20-30 years. UAE will have greatly enhanced air domination because of this platform.

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## Scorpiooo

Aryeih Leib said:


> Instead PAF should invest more in zdk platform upgrade it ....


pAF not satisfied with ZDKs 
Additionally they cant communicate with F16

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## khanasifm

Scorpiooo said:


> pAF not satisfied with ZDKs
> Additionally they cant communicate with F16



Lumbi lumbi nah chor[emoji38]

All systems are interlinked [emoji6]

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## Aryeih Leib

Scorpiooo said:


> pAF not satisfied with ZDKs
> Additionally they cant communicate with F16


Well That's something new .


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## MIRauf

Aryeih Leib said:


> Well That's something new .


Which part ? ZDK or able to comm with F-16s ?

PAF has flown C-130 for 50 odd years give or take few, off course AN-12 or similar won't be as good.

F-16s gets data from ZDK through Ground Relay, what few Micro Second delay among friends ? It's not Rainbow Six game where High End nvidia in SLI mode would give you fraction of a second better shooting option vs a slow rendering GPU. Once it becomes laser tag then yah it may be different story.

PS: Sorry, I didn't mean to write thesis on this, I couldn't pen it all down in 'Cliff Notes.'

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## ghazi52



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## hassan1



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## MIRauf

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 756230


Damn, these things are like Kohinoor Diamond and PAF has them parked Outside like this even if for very short duration.


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## Akh1112

syed_yusuf said:


> I hope not, PAF should invest in next gen aewcs




GlobalEye is pretty modern for AWACS, even though its a budget option, its still relatively capable.

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## Windjammer

MIRauf said:


> Damn, these things are like Kohinoor Diamond and PAF has them parked Outside like this even if for very short duration.


I think it's a very old image as it displays old style flag.


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## iLION12345_1

MIRauf said:


> Damn, these things are like Kohinoor Diamond and PAF has them parked Outside like this even if for very short duration.


Old image, aircraft has been rebuilt since then.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> GlobalEye is pretty modern for AWACS, even though its a budget option, its still relatively capable.


Imagine configuring the Lineage 1000E or E190 with the GlobalEye -- i.e., Erieye-ER, Seaspray SAR/GMTI, and EO/IR. On top of that, add in Aselsan's ESM suite with SIGINT and ELINT.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Imagine configuring the Lineage 1000E or E190 with the GlobalEye -- i.e., Erieye-ER, Seaspray SAR/GMTI, and EO/IR. On top of that, add in Aselsan's ESM suite with SIGINT and ELINT.


Hope PAF think on those lines and involve PAC in it too


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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Imagine configuring the Lineage 1000E or E190 with the GlobalEye -- i.e., Erieye-ER, Seaspray SAR/GMTI, and EO/IR. On top of that, add in Aselsan's ESM suite with SIGINT and ELINT.




Make it even easier, just port the GlobalEye's suite over to the L1000E, its all MOTS stuff anyway, shouldnt require major airframe mods. Im hoping the forces settle on a unified platform to base their future projects off of, i.e L1000E awacs, EW, and then perhaps KC390 for tanker/cargo duties etc

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## araz

Akh1112 said:


> Make it even easier, just port the GlobalEye's suite over to the L1000E, its all MOTS stuff anyway, shouldnt require major airframe mods. Im hoping the forces settle on a unified platform to base their future projects off of, i.e L1000E awacs, EW, and then perhaps KC390 for tanker/cargo duties etc


Do you know what the cost of a global eye unit is. I suspect we might be able to integrate it ourselves.


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## Akh1112

araz said:


> Do you know what the cost of a global eye unit is. I suspect we might be able to integrate it ourselves.




the ENTIRE globaleye suite(including platform) is roughly 2-300m per unit. Relative to AWACS costs, thats on the lower end, however it is significantly more than what the PAF pays for the Erieye's. The GlobalEye suite would need some modification to be suited to other platforms, kind of like how the PN is undertaking the SeaSultan project, its pretty much that really.

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## nomi007

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 756230


Best option is to replace these old EW aircrafts with Saab 2000 Airtracer: SIGINT aircraft just buy more SAAB 2000 aircrafts from different airliners.
Saab is best reliable and war proven platform.


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## Akh1112

nomi007 said:


> Best option is to replace these old EW aircrafts with Saab 2000 Airtracer: SIGINT aircraft just buy more SAAB 2000 aircrafts from different airliners.
> Saab is best reliable and war proven platform.




SIGINT is not the same as Electronic Warfare.


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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业陕飞 from Weixin

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## CAPRICORN-88

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 758578
> 
> Via @航空工业陕飞 from Weixin



_From the photo Pakistan Air Force maintained its aircrafts very well. _


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## Scorpiooo

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 758578
> 
> Via @航空工业陕飞 from Weixin


Any specific visit or just random?


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## nomi007

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Imagine configuring the Lineage 1000E or E190 with the GlobalEye -- i.e., Erieye-ER, Seaspray SAR/GMTI, and EO/IR. On top of that, add in Aselsan's ESM suite with SIGINT and ELINT.


Kindly post an article regarding if PN will select SAAB swordfish system for lineage 1000.
Did SAAB offered us that system or not?


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## Akh1112

nomi007 said:


> Kindly post an article regarding if PN will select SAAB swordfish system for lineage 1000.
> Did SAAB offered us that system or not?




SAAB does nothing on the swordfish aside from combining the puzzle pieces together.

A minority of the systems are SAAB designed. The rest are available to buy off of the shelf. The PN is replicating the Swordfish's approach by having the platform and buying the components off the shelf and integrating them.

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## ghazi52



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## Akh1112

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1419976235409711109

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1420015474230894599

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1420016198033580053

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## Scorpiooo

Akh1112 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1419976235409711109
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1420015474230894599
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1420016198033580053


What is credibility of this Twitter account?


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## Zarvan

Scorpiooo said:


> What is credibility of this Twitter account?


More this his credibility I am interested in the claim he is making and the proof he is giving. Some expert needs to clear things up. 

@Tipu7 @Blacklight @Windjammer


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## Scorpiooo

Zarvan said:


> More this his credibility I am interested in the claim he is making and the proof he is giving. Some expert needs to clear things up.
> 
> @Tipu7 @Blacklight @Windjammer


He making very big claim of 10 saab based systems , that why question about twitter that is it worth of taking serious


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## Zarvan

Scorpiooo said:


> He making very big claim of 10 saab based systems , that why question about twitter that is it worth of taking serious


What I know is we have few SAAB which are not AWACS. But he is saying we have 7 SAAB AWACS and two more are on order. That makes total of 9 AWACS. That is why I am also confused. Any one who knows numbers of our AWACS plus the website he is taking data from should explain this.

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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> He making very big claim of 10 saab based systems , that why question about twitter that is it worth of taking serious



It’s my account, I just couldn’t be bothered to re paste everything I wrote. It’s all there and credible, you can also look at the airframe I’ve quoted and compare it’s livery with the paf one and the rsaf one and that will further clear everything up for you 


also, I’d call myself an expert smh

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## Scorpiooo

Akh1112 said:


> It’s my account, I just couldn’t be bothered to re paste everything I wrote. It’s all there and credible, you can also look at the airframe I’ve quoted and compare it’s livery with the paf one and the rsaf one and that will further clear everything up for you
> 
> 
> also, I’d call myself an expert smh


Good to know bro, so how many of these exiting 7 are erieye based , as you mentioned erieye based 7th saab


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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> Good to know bro, so how many of these exiting 7 are erieye based , as you mentioned erieye based 7th saab


We had an inventory of 6 erieye and 3 Saab 2000 in 2018.

as of may 2020 we had 7 erieye with an unknown number of Saab 2000’s. I am leaning towards 3 Saab 2000s with the 7th erieye being an airframe procured from abroad s opposed to conversion of a paf saab 2000

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## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> We had an inventory of 6 erieye and 3 Saab 2000 in 2018.
> 
> as of may 2020 we had 7 erieye with an unknown number of Saab 2000’s. I am leaning towards 3 Saab 2000s with the 7th erieye being an airframe procured from abroad s opposed to conversion of a paf saab 2000



7 + 3 makes sense I guess. Gives PAF 3 airframes for training or to convert later, what is of interest if the level of tech in them now as we are converting aircraft in 2021 to the same standard as we purchased in 2009? Will these planes (and all others) have the Global Eye update?

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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> 7 + 3 makes sense I guess. Gives PAF 3 airframes for training or to convert later, what is of interest if the level of tech in them now as we are converting aircraft in 2021 to the same standard as we purchased in 2009? Will these planes (and all others) have the Global Eye update?



I don’t really think it would be worth it, remember, the benefit of the erieye is that it’s piss cheap, the latest deal was for $150m for three systems (one delivered so far). 150m is absurdly cheap, look at pricing for other similar awacs systems on the market and you’ll see how amazing of a proposition the erieye is.

aside from this, as the paf evolves, there’s a Good chance they will evaluate the erieye er or the navy could ask for a suite based off of the erieye er for their lineage1000e as they seemingly haven’t given up hope on n awacs solution.
Just to clarify, the paf has 2 more erieye on order, current inventory of 7.

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## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> I don’t really think it would be worth it, remember, the benefit of the erieye is that it’s piss cheap, the latest deal was for $150m for three systems (one delivered so far). 150m is absurdly cheap, look at pricing for other similar awacs systems on the market and you’ll see how amazing of a proposition the erieye is.
> 
> aside from this, as the paf evolves, there’s a Good chance they will evaluate the erieye er or the navy could ask for a suite based off of the erieye er for their lineage1000e as they seemingly haven’t given up hope on n awacs solution.
> Just to clarify, the paf has 2 more erieye on order, current inventory of 7.




9 is a lot of AEW for our size, wonder why such a large number. Surely the ZDK is taking care of the south?

7 seems to be a good number as you will always have 1 in maintenance then you can have 2 locations operation 3 each allowing 1 constantly in the air from each location (assuming 1 aircraft on duty, 2 ready to take off to replace it and a third being made ready/recovering from duty).

9 seems a very large number, maybe the ZDK is not working out for us?


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## Great Janjua

Yasser76 said:


> 9 is a lot of AEW for our size, wonder why such a large number. Surely the ZDK is taking care of the south?
> 
> 7 seems to be a good number as you will always have 1 in maintenance then you can have 2 locations operation 3 each allowing 1 constantly in the air from each location (assuming 1 aircraft on duty, 2 ready to take off to replace it and a third being made ready/recovering from duty).
> 
> 9 seems a very large number, maybe the ZDK is not working out for us?


In terms of AWACS the more you have the merrier you can never have not enough AWACS. For example in case of war Pakistan is a long country if we look at the eastern border dynamics,We place one AWAC up north, One in middle and one down south in sindh that's 3 already in operation. Then we place 2 in Baluchistan for the Iranian border and 1 near Afghanistan border, that's 6 in operation and 1 left for reliefing 6 in operation. We should have at least 12 erieye AEW planes


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## Yasser76

Great Janjua said:


> In terms of AWACS the more you have the merrier you can never have not enough AWACS. For example in case of war Pakistan is a long country if we look at the eastern border dynamics,We place one AWAC up north, One in middle and one down south in sindh that's 3 already in operation. Then we place 2 in Baluchistan for the Iranian border and 1 near Afghanistan border, that's 6 in operation and 1 left for reliefing 6 in operation. We should have at least 12 erieye AEW planes




I do not think AEW availability works like that......

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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> 9 is a lot of AEW for our size, wonder why such a large number. Surely the ZDK is taking care of the south?
> 
> 7 seems to be a good number as you will always have 1 in maintenance then you can have 2 locations operation 3 each allowing 1 constantly in the air from each location (assuming 1 aircraft on duty, 2 ready to take off to replace it and a third being made ready/recovering from duty).
> 
> 9 seems a very large number, maybe the ZDK is not working out for us?


In all honesty I am yet to see deployment of the zdk03

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## Tomcats

Zarvan said:


> More this his credibility I am interested in the claim he is making and the proof he is giving. Some expert needs to clear things up.
> 
> @Tipu7 @Blacklight @Windjammer


The information seems correct based on the analysis of images and what not.

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## HRK

Akh1112 said:


> In all honesty I am yet to see deployment of the zdk03


We usually see zdk-03 flying in Karachi

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## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> In all honesty I am yet to see deployment of the zdk03




Google Maps often shows them parked at various positions at Masroor so can only assume they are active there?

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## Akh1112

HRK said:


> We usually see zdk-03 flying in Karachi


Makes sense, perhaps the PAF uses them to monitor the sea as they don’t have mpa assets, you can use them for that so it wouldn’t be too far fetched to assume I guess


Yasser76 said:


> Google Maps often shows them parked at various positions at Masroor so can only assume they are active there?



Perhaps, though they could always just be making hangar trips etc. I wonder what the rationale behind the zdk03 was. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ?


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## Blacklight

Zarvan said:


> More this his credibility I am interested in the claim he is making and the proof he is giving. Some expert needs to clear things up.
> 
> @Tipu7 @Blacklight @Windjammer


@Tps43 is our resident expert. I would rather not comment.

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## SQ8

HRK said:


> We usually see zdk-03 flying in Karachi


They are generally better at tackling sea surveillance than erieyes which are better over the terrain and EW environment along the border than ZDKs.


Akh1112 said:


> Makes sense, perhaps the PAF uses them to monitor the sea as they don’t have mpa assets, you can use them for that so it wouldn’t be too far fetched to assume I guess
> 
> 
> Perhaps, though they could always just be making hangar trips etc. I wonder what the rationale behind the zdk03 was. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ?


The SEA surveillance mode is reportedly very good and the PN gets a good cover. Additionally, the Y-9 platform is not very liked among pilots and maintenance apparently versus the Saab 2000.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> They are generally better at tackling sea surveillance than erieyes which are better over the terrain and EW environment along the border than ZDKs.
> 
> The SEA surveillance mode is reportedly very good and the PN gets a good cover. Additionally, the Y-9 platform is not very liked among pilots and maintenance apparently versus the Saab 2000.


But with the PN stipulating an AEW-type capability in the Sea Sultan, I wonder if the PN now wants to take more ownership of this area. Remember, the PN had asked for the Hawkeye 2000 on the P-3 (and the US even approved it in the mid-2000s). 

IMO the Erieye-ER on the Lineage 1000E or E190-E2 could be really interesting. The Erieye-ER is a GaN-type radar with a 70%+ range improvement over the preceding Erieye. Add a Seaspray SAR/GMTI and you have a really good ISR combination.


Akh1112 said:


> Makes sense, perhaps the PAF uses them to monitor the sea as they don’t have mpa assets, you can use them for that so it wouldn’t be too far fetched to assume I guess
> 
> 
> Perhaps, though they could always just be making hangar trips etc. I wonder what the rationale behind the zdk03 was. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ?


In the aftermath of the Earthquake, the PAF had to scale the Erieye program back from 6 aircraft to 4. So a lower-cost way of making up the AEW&C gap (resulting from fewer Erieyes) was getting the ZDK03. The PAF got 4 for less than $300 m, which for the time was a good deal. 

But the PAF was able to build to its original Erieye goal of 6 aircraft, and it sounds like the PN wants to take up AEW capability via the Sea Sultan. So, I don't know, how long are the ZDK03s going to stay?

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But with the PN stipulating an AEW-type capability in the Sea Sultan, I wonder if the PN now wants to take more ownership of this area. Remember, the PN had asked for the Hawkeye 2000 on the P-3 (and the US even approved it in the mid-2000s).
> 
> IMO the Erieye-ER on the Lineage 1000E or E190-E2 could be really interesting. The Erieye-ER is a GaN-type radar with a 70%+ range improvement over the preceding Erieye. Add a Seaspray SAR/GMTI and you have a really good ISR combination.
> 
> In the aftermath of the Earthquake, the PAF had to scale the Erieye program back from 6 aircraft to 4. So a lower-cost way of making up the AEW&C gap (resulting from fewer Erieyes) was getting the ZDK03. The PAF got 4 for less than $300 m, which for the time was a good deal.
> 
> But the PAF was able to build to its original Erieye goal of 6 aircraft, and it sounds like the PN wants to take up AEW capability via the Sea Sultan. So, I don't know, how long are the ZDK03s going to stay?


That may be a great idea and having the erieye radar on this platform may even make a foundation for the PAF transitioning from the Saab a few years into the future as that platform gets obsolete.

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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the Erieye-ER on the Lineage 1000E or E190-E2 could be really interesting.


I too wanted something like this and as a hobby when I was playing scenarios and was thinking about operational employment of the system found that 360 degree coverage should be preferred rather an AEW&C with fixed two face Antenna as targets & threats in open sea could be anywhere in any direction, Saab-2000 flying North-South-North could cover India in our east

But we could not fly SAAB-2000 AEW&C over sea in North-South or East-west pattern because of the gap exist due to design flaw in 2 side facing Erieye AESA antenna. This thing creat a gap in search and Tacking

Therefore we either need to install a rotating disk or three face antenna

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> That may be a great idea and having the erieye radar on this platform may even make a foundation for the PAF transitioning from the Saab a few years into the future as that platform gets obsolete.


I'd also keep an eye on how we deal with the IL-78s in 5-7 years.

If we can find someone to help with configuring the A330 for the AAR role with UPAZ, we'd gain a tremendous capability boost via the fuel-load and fuel-efficiency of that platform.

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## Sifar zero

Akh1112 said:


> I don’t really think it would be worth it, remember, the benefit of the erieye is that it’s piss cheap, the latest deal was for $150m for three systems (one delivered so far). 150m is absurdly cheap, look at pricing for other similar awacs systems on the market and you’ll see how amazing of a proposition the erieye is.
> 
> aside from this, as the paf evolves, there’s a Good chance they will evaluate the erieye er or the navy could ask for a suite based off of the erieye er for their lineage1000e as they seemingly haven’t given up hope on n awacs solution.
> Just to clarify, the paf has 2 more erieye on order, current inventory of 7.


Bro, you said they were cheap?
I mean how Erieye is a western system, are labour costs in Sweden high or very low?


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## Ali_Baba

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But the PAF was able to build to its original Erieye goal of 6 aircraft, and it sounds like the PN wants to take up AEW capability via the Sea Sultan. So, I don't know, how long are the ZDK03s going to stay?



The ZDK-03's will be going no where for quite some time i reckon. PAF/PN may adopt the Erieye-ER(if Saab decides to allow for the sale of that variant to Pakistan which is an unknown right now) on a Lineage 1000E and that makes alot of sense.However, we are talking about the PAF which is still operating 50 year old relics in the name of Mirages - so there is no way they are going to decomisson the ZDK-03's any time soon, that I am very sure on until all of the airframe life is exhausted and the EW/Radar has run out of life aswell.

We have seen time and time again, the lack of joined up strategic thinking around military procurements from Pakistan between the services. Pakistan's military procurements seem to have a tribal mentality around them at times, the services dont seem to talk to each other or consult each other much. A standardisation around the Lineage 1000E for a whole suite of systems makes alot of sense for sure.

Pakistan can decide to develop an AWACs platform using the Lineage 1000E by either hosting Chinese radars on this platform, or developing something with Turkey, or even work with Saab to develop an AWACs variant of the Erieye-ER (three face antenna variant ) hosted on a Lineage 1000E (if the Lineage 1000E is big enough to host one? )

Chinese militarty aviation platforms are a problem interms of maintenance for sure - but, they are making massive strides in electronics and avionics, so i would not dismiss the value of a Chinese based AESA AWACs on a Lineage 1000E.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't know, how long are the ZDK03s going to stay?


⬇


Dazzler said:


> At least one zdk is being upgraded in China. Two side aesa in rotodome. Has Klc-7 B&R Eye radar.

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## iLION12345_1

Blacklight said:


> ⬇


Was that upgrade ever completed? That was over a year ago.

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## Blacklight

iLION12345_1 said:


> Was that upgrade ever completed? That was over a year ago.

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## Tipu7

On paper ZDK-03s may appear better platform than Erieyes, but in actuality Erieyes are more advance and reliable than ZDK-03s. Swift Retort has also stamped the Erieyes operational capabilities. There are certain limitations of ZDK-03 regarding communication (with non Chinese assets?) and information gathering (its more prone to EW, share less precise data?). Therefore, It's safe to assume that PAF will standardize its entire AEWCS fleet with Erieyes for covering all three primary sectors (North, Center, South). 

If that happens in future, (theoretically speaking), ZDK-03s may be pushed to Navy (as part of Naval Aviation). Meaning, an improved ZDK-03 fleet could be employed specifically for Maritime operations. As Navy is increasing in size, it's also improving its physical presence farther South of its AORs. If there will be more warships and subs, then there will also be bigger and better naval aviation. Hence, ZDK-03s can find their role for enhanced coverage of Pakistan Maritime Domain. 
They will be different from Sea Sultans as (1) they will primarily cover the aerial operations, (2) will serve as communication nodes for establishing network centricity, (3) will increase the envelop of Pakistan airborne area denial prowess, (4) and act as Airborne command & control systems for coverage of coastal, aerial, sea surface and submerged assets. 

*Year ago, there was a proposal for customizing a pair of ZDK-03s with refuelling tanks. Meaning, ZDK-03s will be able to act as supplementary aerial refuelrs. It will be interesting to see in what capacity that proposal will materialize? (provided it has not been rejected already)

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## Khan vilatey

Tipu7 said:


> On paper ZDK-03s may appear better platform than Erieyes, but in actuality Erieyes are more advance and reliable than ZDK-03s. Swift Retort has also stamped the Erieyes operational capabilities. There are certain limitations of ZDK-03 regarding communication (with non Chinese assets?) and information gathering (its more prone to EW, share less precise data?). Therefore, It's safe to assume that PAF will standardize its entire AEWCS fleet with Erieyes for covering all three primary sectors (North, Center, South).
> 
> If that happens in future, (theoretically speaking), ZDK-03s may be pushed to Navy (as part of Naval Aviation). Meaning, an improved ZDK-03 fleet could be employed specifically for Maritime operations. As Navy is increasing in size, it's also improving its physical presence farther South of its AORs. If there will be more warships and subs, then there will also be bigger and better naval aviation. Hence, ZDK-03s can find their role for enhanced coverage of Pakistan Maritime Domain.
> They will be different from Sea Sultans as (1) they will primarily cover the aerial operations, (2) will serve as communication nodes for establishing network centricity, (3) will increase the envelop of Pakistan airborne area denial prowess, (4) and act as Airborne command & control systems for coverage of coastal, aerial, sea surface and submerged assets.
> 
> *Year ago, there was a proposal for customizing a pair of ZDK-03s with refuelling tanks. Meaning, ZDK-03s will be able to act as supplementary aerial refuelrs. It will be interesting to see in what capacity that proposal will materialize? (provided it has not been rejected already)



Aoa, I respectfully disagree with your comments

1) the entire PAF hi end radar capability from ground 3d AESA radars , to naval 3d aesa radars on the new and old frigates, to army balloon, Ly80 anti aircraft Battrey & anti artillery radars are Chinese, why would we not buy more such platforms that integrate with all our arms !!!

2)all hi-end AESA radars on the PAF fleet are Chinese e.g jf-17 block 2 , block 3 with AeSA radars and soon to be inducted J-10C. If these are so terrible why are we not equipping them with Swedish radars? They may have maintenance issues but we are maintaining them like all of our equipment ! So this conjecture of not buying more is less about the technology and capability then some feelings people have about inferior Chinese EW and surveillance capability.

finally I believe that the PAF is waiting for the Chinese to mount larger surveillance goodies on Y-20 platform. I truly believe that the PAF will standardize on this platform over the next few years as there transport, refulers and AWaCS fleet.

k

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## iLION12345_1

Khan vilatey said:


> Aoa, I respectfully disagree with your comments
> 
> 1) the entire PAF hi end radar capability from ground 3d AESA radars , to naval 3d aesa radars on the new and old frigates, to army balloon, Ly80 anti aircraft Battrey & anti artillery radars are Chinese, why would we not buy more such platforms that integrate with all our arms !!!
> 
> 2)all hi-end AESA radars on the PAF fleet are Chinese e.g jf-17 block 2 , block 3 with AeSA radars and soon to be inducted J-10C. If these are so terrible why are we not equipping them with Swedish radars? They may have maintenance issues but we are maintaining them like all of our equipment ! So this conjecture of not buying more is less about the technology and capability then some feelings people have about inferior Chinese EW and surveillance capability.
> 
> finally I believe that the PAF is waiting for the Chinese to mount larger surveillance goodies on Y-20 platform. I truly believe that the PAF will standardize on this platform over the next few years as there transport, refulers and AWaCS fleet.
> 
> k


Most of PNs high end surface assets and _all_ of their Aerial assets are going to be Western/Turkish, So I don’t see what you mean. (Seal sultan, ATR-72, MILGEM, Jinnah, new helicopters…)
PAF and PA use a combination of western and Chinese radars. PAF uses western AD systems and their next one will likely be western too. PA might however go for Chinese AD this time. 

JF-17 block 2 does not have AESA. JF-17 uses Pakistani data-link.

Y-20 is not offered for export. There is little to no indication that Pakistan will purchase it. There hasn’t even been any interest. It is more likely PAF will go for European, Russian or any other non-Chinese transport/tanker if need and options are there. 

You overestimate the PAF and PNs desire to use and buy Chinese systems overall too. They have shown time And again that if the option is there, they will prefer non-Chinese systems to not be dependent on a single source. (unless the Chinese option is clearly and solely the best, which is not always the case). It is never good to put all your eggs in one basket as The forces have learned with their previous dealings with the USA.

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> On paper ZDK-03s may appear better platform than Erieyes, but in actuality Erieyes are more advance and reliable than ZDK-03s. Swift Retort has also stamped the Erieyes operational capabilities. There are certain limitations of ZDK-03 regarding communication (with non Chinese assets?) and information gathering (its more prone to EW, share less precise data?). Therefore, It's safe to assume that PAF will standardize its entire AEWCS fleet with Erieyes for covering all three primary sectors (North, Center, South).
> 
> If that happens in future, (theoretically speaking), ZDK-03s may be pushed to Navy (as part of Naval Aviation). Meaning, an improved ZDK-03 fleet could be employed specifically for Maritime operations. As Navy is increasing in size, it's also improving its physical presence farther South of its AORs. If there will be more warships and subs, then there will also be bigger and better naval aviation. Hence, ZDK-03s can find their role for enhanced coverage of Pakistan Maritime Domain.
> They will be different from Sea Sultans as (1) they will primarily cover the aerial operations, (2) will serve as communication nodes for establishing network centricity, (3) will increase the envelop of Pakistan airborne area denial prowess, (4) and act as Airborne command & control systems for coverage of coastal, aerial, sea surface and submerged assets.
> 
> *Year ago, there was a proposal for customizing a pair of ZDK-03s with refuelling tanks. Meaning, ZDK-03s will be able to act as supplementary aerial refuelrs. It will be interesting to see in what capacity that proposal will materialize? (provided it has not been rejected already)


Well if ZDK 03 have limitations what are the chances we may opt for more SAAB Erieyes or even better if go for for SAAB Global eye ?

@Blacklight 







SAAB Global Eye

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## Tipu7

Khan vilatey said:


> Aoa, I respectfully disagree with your comments
> 
> 1) the entire PAF hi end radar capability from ground 3d AESA radars , to naval 3d aesa radars on the new and old frigates, to army balloon, Ly80 anti aircraft Battrey & anti artillery radars are Chinese, why would we not buy more such platforms that integrate with all our arms !!!
> 
> 2)all hi-end AESA radars on the PAF fleet are Chinese e.g jf-17 block 2 , block 3 with AeSA radars and soon to be inducted J-10C. If these are so terrible why are we not equipping them with Swedish radars? They may have maintenance issues but we are maintaining them like all of our equipment ! So this conjecture of not buying more is less about the technology and capability then some feelings people have about inferior Chinese EW and surveillance capability.
> 
> finally I believe that the PAF is waiting for the Chinese to mount larger surveillance goodies on Y-20 platform. I truly believe that the PAF will standardize on this platform over the next few years as there transport, refulers and AWaCS fleet.
> 
> k




Wa Alaikum aslam.

We have numerous radars of Chinese origin in our arsenal due to mixed reasons. Primary being, they were affordable and available. In several cases, we have marginally compromised over net capability wrt to our economic capacity.
In majority of cases, we have tried to procure radars of Western origin but failed due to many reasons. Therefore, Chinese systems were procured. Many of them are meeting satisfactory benchmarks, but few of them are not as good as is assumed in open source discussions. Roughly, same is case with Russian systems which are found almost always one step behind from top of line equipment of American or European origin.

As per Y20 (B version to be more specific), PAF eyes them as strategic lifters (depends how reliable WS20 proves itself). But There is no plan of using Y-20 based AWACS system.



Zarvan said:


> Well if ZDK 03 have limitations what are the chances we may opt for more SAAB Erieyes or even better if go for for SAAB Global eye ?
> 
> @Blacklight
> 
> View attachment 766703
> 
> 
> SAAB Global Eye


Considering the capacity of our adversary, our requirements and our limitations, Erieye mounted on Saab 2000 aircrafts as AEWCS is the best solution for us.

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## The Eagle

Speaking of central command and eye above all assets, let's just say that we will be having a flying Castle above all the assets. The level, doctrine and operational capability especially in regard to EW has gone up by many levels for Pakistan armed Forces. We might see a pattern similar to top notch military.

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## Khan vilatey

Tipu7 said:


> Wa Alaikum aslam.
> 
> We have numerous radars of Chinese origin in our arsenal due to mixed reasons. Primary being, they were affordable and available. In several cases, we have marginally compromised over net capability wrt to our economic capacity.
> In majority of cases, we have tried to procure radars of Western origin but failed due to many reasons. Therefore, Chinese systems were procured. Many of them are meeting satisfactory benchmarks, but few of them are not as good as is assumed in open source discussions. Roughly, same is case with Russian systems which are found almost always one step behind from top of line equipment of American or European origin.
> 
> As per Y20 (B version to be more specific), PAF eyes them as strategic lifters (depends how reliable WS20 proves itself). But There is no plan of using Y-20 based AWACS system.
> 
> 
> Considering the capacity of our adversary, our requirements and our limitations, Erieye mounted on Saab 2000 aircrafts as AEWCS is the best solution for us.



thank you for your insight but I believe the reason for not procuring further Chinese AWACS assets is the wait for a larger more aggressive platform based on y-20, I also see them as refuelers. The reason for this are as follows:

we need to get rid of our age ing c-130s

eireye is sanction prone

the Chinese have not decided on a large platform like the ec-3 or a-50 hence we have decided not to purchase more interim systems

k


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## ghazi52

DGPR (AIR FORCE)

@DGPR_PAF
·
9h

No 4 Sqn (Karakoram Eagles) was established on 15th August 1958. It has a rich history as the vanguard of Special Ops during Peace and War. The Squadron, equipped with Sea Sentinels and HD-19, performed extensive S&R and Maritime Reconnaissance during war of 1965.

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## ghazi52

Beyond the Horizon!

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## khanasifm



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## Tally ho

melb4aust said:


> Ofcourse, there's no need to ask for that. As we have talked alot, that Pakistan has already signed a deal with Sweden to acquire Eireye system. Incase some how, if that deal doesnt go through then we have China to provide AWACS system.
> 
> I would like to go for more details on this issue later......


It was the AWACs rhat ensured a flawless accomplishment of Mission in Swift retort


Neo said:


> Not entirely true Bull.
> PAF evaluated the E-2C Hawkeye and even a B-737 based AWACS but opted to buy the Erieye for political reasons.
> Bush is not going to stay forever in Washington.


E2C was not fit for our environment. It was bsicalky designed for sea surveillance. We were intetested in isurveiilance over rufged terrain which the US wouldnt agree


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## Trailer23

Zarvan said:


> ...or even better if go for for SAAB Global eye ?


The _UAEAF_ just recently placed an order for 02 more SAAB GlobalEye's worth *US $1 Billion*.

You want to try that again?

Maybe something more in the range of our budget, or is this _also_ possible like everything else in the PAF Doctrine?


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## ghazi52

Trying to be Stealthy, Han?

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## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


>


Basically it can replace da-20 as well and perhaps why paf expanded and added another sqn to cover the whole pak with erieye covering north and central commands and Chinese awacs covering south 

lastly it has now GMTI so provide early warning for army

article in Air Force monthly indicated it’s ground surveillance was suppressed initially due to ground forces requesting in Greek case eventually looks like now it there

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## Windjammer

''Angels'' in the air.

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## Akh1112

Zarvan said:


> Well if ZDK 03 have limitations what are the chances we may opt for more SAAB Erieyes or even better if go for for SAAB Global eye ?
> 
> @Blacklight
> 
> View attachment 766703
> 
> 
> SAAB Global Eye



PAF has 9 Erieyes (+1 written off?)


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## Moon

Don't know if this is the right place, but can standoff munitions like the REK, GB-6 etc..
Be detected by AEW&Cs? Or radars in general? 
What about smaller ones like SDB or the SAAW?


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## Akh1112

khanasifm said:


> Basically it can replace da-20 as well and perhaps why paf expanded and added another sqn to cover the whole pak with erieye covering north and central commands and Chinese awacs covering south
> 
> lastly it has now GMTI so provide early warning for army
> 
> article in Air Force monthly indicated it’s ground surveillance was suppressed initially due to ground forces requesting in Greek case eventually looks like now it there




it CANNOT replace a dedicated EW platform, Erieyes carry a defensive electronic warfare suite, to protect themselves and nearby assets, EW is a very broad field with so many different aspects to it, you need numerous sensors, emitters, antennas, operators etc to be able to accomplish tasks. Theres a reason the E/A-18G has an EWO for example, and a F-15X, with its EPAWSS can operate without a backseater


Moon said:


> Don't know if this is the right place, but can standoff munitions like the REK, GB-6 etc..
> Be detected by AEW&Cs? Or radars in general?
> What about smaller ones like SDB or the SAAW?


yes, yes they can, missiles, bombs, all of these things will have an RCS. Hypothetical simulation puts this missile at -9.6dBsm, or 0.1m^2

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## Moon

Akh1112 said:


> it CANNOT replace a dedicated EW platform, Erieyes carry a defensive electronic warfare suite, to protect themselves and nearby assets, EW is a very broad field with so many different aspects to it, you need numerous sensors, emitters, antennas, operators etc to be able to accomplish tasks. Theres a reason the E/A-18G has an EWO for example, and a F-15X, with its EPAWSS can operate without a backseater
> 
> yes, yes they can, missiles, bombs, all of these things will have an RCS. Hypothetical simulation puts this missile at -9.6dBsm, or 0.1m^2
> View attachment 790382


So their slow speed also means they're easy targets as well?
Secondly can their GPS signals be jammed by these birds? Essentially turning the bomb blind?


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## CombatSurgeon

Akh1112 said:


> it CANNOT replace a dedicated EW platform, Erieyes carry a defensive electronic warfare suite, to protect themselves and nearby assets, EW is a very broad field with so many different aspects to it, you need numerous sensors, emitters, antennas, operators etc to be able to accomplish tasks. Theres a reason the E/A-18G has an EWO for example, and a F-15X, with its EPAWSS can operate without a backseater
> 
> yes, yes they can, missiles, bombs, all of these things will have an RCS. Hypothetical simulation puts this missile at -9.6dBsm, or 0.1m^2
> View attachment 790382


 Yes. Erieye and similar AEW aircraft carry only ESM and CFDs. In some cases MAWS. No ECM to jam radars/missile seekers. These days an ECM aboard a slow mover is more trouble than benefit.


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## Moon

CombatSurgeon said:


> Yes. Erieye and similar AEW aircraft carry only ESM and CFDs. In some cases MAWS. No ECM to jam radars/missile seekers. These days an ECM aboard a slow mover is more trouble than benefit.


Why is that? Won't having ECM and jamming capabilities boost the survivability of the bird?


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## Akh1112

Moon said:


> Why is that? Won't having ECM and jamming capabilities boost the survivability of the bird?




well, with some form of ECM, you're actively emitting, though, to be fair, i don't think that's really a problem in this context anyway lol.

the Erieye does carry a system called HES-21 (our's do atleast, it was an option at time of procurement), however, HES-21 seems to be more of a sensor package that aids defensive ability than something that would be relied on totally. For example, SAAB make it clear that itll help in decision making with regards to defensive countermeasures, infact, to me, this kind of seems similar to the Eurofighter Typhoon's Praetorian DASS, which with its pre-programmed threat library (which obviously is a thing for HES-21, in fact, all of these points im about to make apply), using antennas around the aircraft, tries to identify the emitter, classify it, and then release appropriate countermeasures when the time is right, however, there's two main areas where HES-21 falls behind, one being the systems employed to defeat the threat, the other being an electronic countermeasure to defeat the threat (this may not be accurate, however, this is my interpretation of the information provided by SAAB.) DASS is able to employ a towed decoy, DRFM based RF decoys, and lastly, ECM, with none of this being found on HES-21/Erieye. What this basically means is that HES-21 will be able to classify, detect, find and save threats, then feed this information to an operator who will then, with its assistance, be given the most optimal means of defending the aircraft, through a combination of flares and chaff, perhaps even feeding the pilots maneuvering cues to ensure the countermeasures work as best as they can (this is guesswork on my part, DASS does this.) Maybe there is a self protection part to the system somewhere, however, its not disclosed or made obvious that its present, nor can i infer from the material that i have, that some sort of self protection jammer or suite is present or baked into the aircraft.

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## aziqbal

we have good amount of ZDK-03 + Erieye 

however I wonder If Pakistan can develop its own radar by 2030?

and use it on a C919 platform ?

we should consider now the next generation of AWACS

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## Akh1112

aziqbal said:


> we have good amount of ZDK-03 + Erieye
> 
> however I wonder If Pakistan can develop its own radar by 2030?
> 
> and use it on a C919 platform ?
> 
> we should consider now the next generation of AWACS




took India 13 years, with more money, experience, expertise.


Pakistan produces what it cant buy, there's a few high-end AWACS available to Pakistan on the market, though, by that i mean, the swedes or the Chinese.

Producing these will be a very expensive venture, small quantity buys are always pricey, economies of scale, and whatnot. 

aside from that, Pak is working on radars, though for now, its nothing very powerful, could just be a testbed, alongside that, i SUSPECT, something like this has been tried, NUST was designing and developing S-Band T/R modules for phased arrays, so like, theres stuff like this that can be adapted to different roles anyway, so we will just have to wait and see, though, generally, id probably not hold my breath for a domestic AWACS.

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## xbat

TurAF is started to feasibility work for new domestic Awacs project, after finishing HAVA SOJ project, aselsan engineers will have new project i quess

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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm



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## Windjammer

I believe this is the control panel of PAF SAAB AWACS.

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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> I believe this is the control panel of PAF SAAB AWACS.
> 
> View attachment 798247

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## Windjammer



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## Scorpiooo

Do PAF want to replace D20s in future with dedicated variant or will have fighters based EW option

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## MIRauf

Scorpiooo said:


> Do PAF want to replace D20s in future with dedicated variant or will have fighters based EW option


With decades of experience in dedicated EW platform, which option do you wager your bet on ?

In all likely hood, both options as PAF is already using both ( non Growler type, just self protection, which in it self EW for the platform. )

PS: Unlikely a Growler type unless the Bear issues a NoC / NoL to China / Pakistan and then on top of that if the Chinese are willing to sell J-16-D or J-15-D type.


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## Bratva

*No fresh deal with Pakistan*

While Saab is offering the Gripen fighters to India, it is also providing the early warning aircraft system to Pakistan — an issue that has upset the IAF.

Pakistan used the SAAB-manufactured early warning aircraft system to coordinate its attack on an Indian military installation in Jammu and Kashmir a day after the Balakot strike earlier in February.

During his visit to Sweden in June this year, Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa had expressed his displeasure with the defence major for supplying Pakistan with early warning systems and also offering Gripen fighters to India.

New Delhi is of the view that it will be difficult to do business with a country that also arms the enemy.

In a bid to pacify the IAF, Ola Rignell persisted that SAAB is not selling any new products to Pakistan.

He also pointed out that every contender has dealt with Pakistan, and other assets were also used in the post-Balakot action.

Pakistan had used French fighters Mirage as well American F-16s.

However, Rignell remained non-committal on future sales to Pakistan, saying the Swedish government decides on such matters and not the company.

“As far as I know, we are not selling any new products to that country (Pakistan). There is an old order and we are fulfilling our contract obligation,” Rignell said.

The Pakistan Air Force had ordered three new SAAB 2000 early warning aircraft in 2017 to supplement the ones that were destroyed in a terror attack on Minhas air base five years before that.

Rignell added that he was part of the meeting in Sweden when Dhanoa raised the issue and this is exactly what he had told him as well.

“We are trying to sell the latest AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) — Golden Eye — to India. We have sold them to UAE. (But) India is already working on its indigenous systems,” he said.









SAAB wants to offer Gripen at half of Rafale cost, with full tech transfer, local production


In an interview to ThePrint, SAAB India CMD Ola Rignell highlights efficiency of Gripen, its offer to India, & the issues around its sales to Pakistan.




theprint.in

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## Primus

Bratva said:


> However, Rignell remained non-committal on future sales to Pakistan, saying the Swedish government decides on such matters and not the company.


Haha


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## Akh1112

Bratva said:


> *No fresh deal with Pakistan*
> 
> While Saab is offering the Gripen fighters to India, it is also providing the early warning aircraft system to Pakistan — an issue that has upset the IAF.
> 
> Pakistan used the SAAB-manufactured early warning aircraft system to coordinate its attack on an Indian military installation in Jammu and Kashmir a day after the Balakot strike earlier in February.
> 
> During his visit to Sweden in June this year, Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa had expressed his displeasure with the defence major for supplying Pakistan with early warning systems and also offering Gripen fighters to India.
> 
> New Delhi is of the view that it will be difficult to do business with a country that also arms the enemy.
> 
> In a bid to pacify the IAF, Ola Rignell persisted that SAAB is not selling any new products to Pakistan.
> 
> He also pointed out that every contender has dealt with Pakistan, and other assets were also used in the post-Balakot action.
> 
> Pakistan had used French fighters Mirage as well American F-16s.
> 
> However, Rignell remained non-committal on future sales to Pakistan, saying the Swedish government decides on such matters and not the company.
> 
> “As far as I know, we are not selling any new products to that country (Pakistan). There is an old order and we are fulfilling our contract obligation,” Rignell said.
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force had ordered three new SAAB 2000 early warning aircraft in 2017 to supplement the ones that were destroyed in a terror attack on Minhas air base five years before that.
> 
> Rignell added that he was part of the meeting in Sweden when Dhanoa raised the issue and this is exactly what he had told him as well.
> 
> “We are trying to sell the latest AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) — Golden Eye — to India. We have sold them to UAE. (But) India is already working on its indigenous systems,” he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAAB wants to offer Gripen at half of Rafale cost, with full tech transfer, local production
> 
> 
> In an interview to ThePrint, SAAB India CMD Ola Rignell highlights efficiency of Gripen, its offer to India, & the issues around its sales to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theprint.in




those new erieye's that were delivered were not part of any previous contract

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## syed_yusuf

Pakistan aewcs technology is 10 years old, time to start thinking next batch of new platform that could join paf in next 10 years


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## Ali_Baba

Akh1112 said:


> those new erieye's that were delivered were not part of any previous contract



Exactly - and if PAF decides to go for the ER version - is that still the same contract - or a new contract ?


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## Imran Khan

syed_yusuf said:


> Pakistan aewcs technology is 10 years old, time to start thinking next batch of new platform that could join paf in next 10 years


yeah as our forex reserves are overflowing ? paksitna is dirt poor country and our air force will use these awacs some 30 more years ok . we need more schools hospitals and food .

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## Bratva

As @Zephyrus and @Cornered Tiger mentioned in their tweets, Southern Air Command going to raise new Erieye Squadron at Bholari. New Erieyes which PAF keeping underwraps gonna be revealed in 2022 along with J-10 and Block-3

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## Pandora

syed_yusuf said:


> Pakistan aewcs technology is 10 years old, time to start thinking next batch of new platform that could join paf in next 10 years



AESA tech is as latest as it comes so far there has not been a significant revolution in Radar tech which warrants planning for a next batch. Other than some improvement in range next generation of radars hasnt brought in any other change.


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## farooqbhai007

Bratva said:


> As @Zephyrus and @Cornered Tiger mentioned in their tweets, Southern Air Command going to raise new Erieye Squadron at Bholari. New Erieyes which PAF keeping underwraps gonna be revealed in 2022 along with J-10 and Block-3


The two which arrived recently ?


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## Bratva

farooqbhai007 said:


> The two which arrived recently ?



i assume they have been arriving since 2018-2019. The follow on order of 3 more which sohail aman disclosed in 2017.


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## Shabi1

Bratva said:


> *No fresh deal with Pakistan*
> 
> While Saab is offering the Gripen fighters to India, it is also providing the early warning aircraft system to Pakistan — an issue that has upset the IAF.
> 
> Pakistan used the SAAB-manufactured early warning aircraft system to coordinate its attack on an Indian military installation in Jammu and Kashmir a day after the Balakot strike earlier in February.
> 
> During his visit to Sweden in June this year, Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa had expressed his displeasure with the defence major for supplying Pakistan with early warning systems and also offering Gripen fighters to India.
> 
> New Delhi is of the view that it will be difficult to do business with a country that also arms the enemy.
> 
> In a bid to pacify the IAF, Ola Rignell persisted that SAAB is not selling any new products to Pakistan.
> 
> He also pointed out that every contender has dealt with Pakistan, and other assets were also used in the post-Balakot action.
> 
> Pakistan had used French fighters Mirage as well American F-16s.
> 
> However, Rignell remained non-committal on future sales to Pakistan, saying the Swedish government decides on such matters and not the company.
> 
> “As far as I know, we are not selling any new products to that country (Pakistan). There is an old order and we are fulfilling our contract obligation,” Rignell said.
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force had ordered three new SAAB 2000 early warning aircraft in 2017 to supplement the ones that were destroyed in a terror attack on Minhas air base five years before that.
> 
> Rignell added that he was part of the meeting in Sweden when Dhanoa raised the issue and this is exactly what he had told him as well.
> 
> “We are trying to sell the latest AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) — Golden Eye — to India. We have sold them to UAE. (But) India is already working on its indigenous systems,” he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAAB wants to offer Gripen at half of Rafale cost, with full tech transfer, local production
> 
> 
> In an interview to ThePrint, SAAB India CMD Ola Rignell highlights efficiency of Gripen, its offer to India, & the issues around its sales to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theprint.in


Swedes are not stupid, they know India will not buy the Gripen and stick to LCA Mark xx and there was a statement from one of their sales guy's couple of years ago who said we won't spend to much resources on whooing them as chances now unlikely for MRCA.


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## TheDarkKnight

Bratva said:


> i assume they have been arriving since 2018-2019. The follow on order of 3 more which sohail aman disclosed in 2017.


Sorry to ask this so how many will be with PAF now in total?


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## Bratva

TheDarkKnight said:


> Sorry to ask this so how many will be with PAF now in total?




7-9 Units. 

Originally, It was 4. 1 destroyed. 2 Repaired. They order 1 AWAC to replace the destroyed one. 

Then they ordered 3 more. So 7 officially . Only confusion is if they ordered 3 or 5 units in the follow up order as @Akh112 post shows PAF has 9 SAAB units active as of now

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## Salza

Sea Sultans for PN won't be much different than AWACS. They will be the latest additions through out this decade.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485951554796593159

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## mhosein

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485951554796593159



Is this just happening or has already been implemented?

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## araz

mhosein said:


> Is this just happening or has already been implemented?


They did try it before and the plane was in China but it ould not happen then. The question is what has changed since then?
A


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## mhosein

araz said:


> They did try it before and the plane was in China but it ould not happen then. The question is what has changed since then?
> A



No, what I meant to ask was whether the ZDK-03s have already been outfitted with AESA now, or is the process about to commence.?


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## Sage

Bratva said:


> *No fresh deal with Pakistan*
> 
> While Saab is offering the Gripen fighters to India, it is also providing the early warning aircraft system to Pakistan — an issue that has upset the IAF.
> 
> Pakistan used the SAAB-manufactured early warning aircraft system to coordinate its attack on an Indian military installation in Jammu and Kashmir a day after the Balakot strike earlier in February.
> 
> During his visit to Sweden in June this year, Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa had expressed his displeasure with the defence major for supplying Pakistan with early warning systems and also offering Gripen fighters to India.
> 
> New Delhi is of the view that it will be difficult to do business with a country that also arms the enemy.
> 
> In a bid to pacify the IAF, Ola Rignell persisted that SAAB is not selling any new products to Pakistan.
> 
> He also pointed out that every contender has dealt with Pakistan, and other assets were also used in the post-Balakot action.
> 
> Pakistan had used French fighters Mirage as well American F-16s.
> 
> However, Rignell remained non-committal on future sales to Pakistan, saying the Swedish government decides on such matters and not the company.
> 
> “As far as I know, we are not selling any new products to that country (Pakistan). There is an old order and we are fulfilling our contract obligation,” Rignell said.
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force had ordered three new SAAB 2000 early warning aircraft in 2017 to supplement the ones that were destroyed in a terror attack on Minhas air base five years before that.
> 
> Rignell added that he was part of the meeting in Sweden when Dhanoa raised the issue and this is exactly what he had told him as well.
> 
> “We are trying to sell the latest AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) — Golden Eye — to India. We have sold them to UAE. (But) India is already working on its indigenous systems,” he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAAB wants to offer Gripen at half of Rafale cost, with full tech transfer, local production
> 
> 
> In an interview to ThePrint, SAAB India CMD Ola Rignell highlights efficiency of Gripen, its offer to India, & the issues around its sales to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theprint.in


http://In a nutshell, Ola showed his middle finger to the IAF cheap !


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## araz

tphuang said:


> You might want to read about the reality of Mig-35 and AESA radar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Russia’s MiG-35 Is Starting To Look Like A Dead Duck
> 
> 
> The latest-generation Fulcrum should have been in service by now, so why isn’t it and what went wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a huge difference between promoting things for export and actually having it in production and on aircraft. Russians are very good at showing prototypes on air shows, but not very good at delivering it into production. For AESA radar, they simply haven't been able to get the cost of producing T/R modules down due to their backward electronics industry.
> 
> What China has is a relatively modern electronics industry along with a lot of investment in military radar. That started with AESA radar on KJ-2000 and Type 052C over 15 years ago. With continued investment and improving domestic industry, they have been able to put AESA radar on all their recent aircraft since 2015. That's really only behind America and France. EFT still does not have AESA radar. Just think about that. JF-17 will get AESA radars before EFT.
> 
> Again, look at what's in production rather than what's promoted in air shows. Huge difference. Don't fall for capabilities that sales teams are promising to be ready in a couple of years.


Totally unrelated and apologies for being off topic but do you know why the PAF KEs couuuld not get upgraded to AESA radars as PAF had sent one over to China and it stayed there for 18 months or so, Help appreciated. You can respond in the relevant topic and ttag me if you want.
A


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## Beast

araz said:


> Totally unrelated and apologies for being off topic but do you know why the PAF KEs couuuld not get upgraded to AESA radars as PAF had sent one over to China and it stayed there for 18 months or so, Help appreciated. You can respond in the relevant topic and ttag me if you want.
> A


There are some sensitive technology especially AWACS AESA that cannot be share with outsider. 

Just like Type 99A and J-20 are not for export.

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## araz

Beast said:


> There are some sensitive technology especially AWACS AESA that cannot be share with outsider.
> 
> Just like Type 99A and J-20 are not for export.


If the media is correct the KE was in China for 18 months. You dont call in a plane to upgrade it and then say "sorry the project is secret". Something must have gone wrong, attempted and not worked out. PAF is very sensitive the our brothers sensitivities and will never ask for what will not be given.
A

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## Beast

araz said:


> If the media is correct the KE was in China for 18 months. You dont call in a plane to upvrade it and then say "sorry the project is secret". Something must have gone wrong, attempted and not worked out. PAF is very sensitive the our brothers sensitivities and will never ask for what will not be given.
> A


Sometimes, engineer and government level are not always well informed of each other. Engineer side will seek approval for certain export order from government. But if it's rejected for export order. 

There is nothing the supplier can do. We are talking about upgrade and servicing. So the application and process can be last minute and haste. Especially when comes to AWACS, the technology export are highly control. Repeat request can be make but end result will depend on government level.


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## The Eagle

Beast said:


> Sometimes, engineer and government level are not always well informed of each other. Engineer side will seek approval for certain export order from government. But if it's rejected for export order.
> 
> There is nothing the supplier can do. We are talking about upgrade and servicing. So the application and process can be last minute and haste. Especially when comes to AWACS, the technology export are highly control. Repeat request can be make but end result will depend on government level.



You are saying that they called the KE for upgrade and then took 18 months to decide and then rejected. Don't you think that such an alleged call in first place seems to be childish behaviour, non professional & opting something without homework. This argument seems to be wrong in the first place which apparently shows Chinese military aviation in very wrong picture.

My humble opinion is that, if someone is not aware of the situation/details/facts; it is better not to argue with wrong perspective and make it more messy.

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## araz

Beast said:


> Sometimes, engineer and government level are not always well informed of each other. Engineer side will seek approval for certain export order from government. But if it's rejected for export order.
> 
> There is nothing the supplier can do. We are talking about upgrade and servicing. So the application and process can be last minute and haste. Especially when comes to AWACS, the technology export are highly control. Repeat request can be make but end result will depend on government level.


I wish I could explain in English what "bongian marna" is. However @ The Eagle has explained our view point so I will wait for a more informed point of view.
A

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## The Eagle

araz said:


> I will wait for a more informed point of view.



I think, if not upgraded secretly; it was more about air-frame condition/space/utility like cost Vs benefits given the study and findings afterwards..


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## araz

The Eagle said:


> I think, if not upgraded secretly; it was more about air-frame condition/space/utility like cost Vs benefits given the study and findings afterwards..


Bhai.
Iam happy to accept the later explanation. I dont think it was upgraded asotherwise the rest of them would have gone over by now. However the manufacturers spent 18 months to decide it was not worth it? Still it is the most plausible along with cost vs benefit exercise. There may have been other issues.
Anyways onwards and upwards. It seems PAF has gone down the Erieye route with more platforms.

Kind regards
A

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## The Eagle

araz said:


> Iam happy to accept the later explanation. I dont think it was upgraded asotherwise the rest of them would have gone over by now. However the manufacturers spent 18 months to decide it was not worth it? Still it is the most plausible along with cost vs benefit exercise. There may have been other issues.



No explainer I have at all but I agree that it is just nonsense to say that 18 months were spent merely to say no due to secrete tech. Informed members with that episode can help though. I will tag it in relevant thread.


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## serenity

What happened with KE upgrade?

The aircraft sent in for upgrade for 18 months and then went back to Pakistan with no changes?

I would guess 18 months for waiting on approval for certain planned upgrades is probably not likely. PAF wouldn't allow waiting for a response for 18 months. Maybe some upgrades were made but said as nothing changed. Or some repair work done.


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## The Eagle

serenity said:


> What happened with KE upgrade?
> 
> The aircraft sent in for upgrade for 18 months and then went back to Pakistan with no changes?
> 
> I would guess 18 months for waiting on approval for certain planned upgrades is probably not likely. PAF wouldn't allow waiting for a response for 18 months. Maybe some upgrades were made but said as nothing changed. Or some repair work done.



Last time I remember, it was said that lot of upgrade was done. Only @araz brought the argument of AESA. But I agree that it doesn't seems plausible to station for 18 months and nothing changed.

_*I have moved posts here for the relevancy of discussion. *_

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## serenity

The Eagle said:


> Last time I remember, it was said that lot of upgrade was done. Only @araz brought the argument of AESA. But I agree that it doesn't seems plausible to station for 18 months and nothing changed.
> 
> _*I have moved posts here for the relevancy of discussion. *_



I don't think AESA tech for close ally is that sensitive. As long as China send PLA personnel to station in Pakistan the same way US monitors F-16 use and even who accesses it. Lol they guard a bloody F-16 like it is the Roswell spacecraft.

I don't think Pakistan would be selling China out that way at all and if there are leaks of sorts it would be down to individual rather than systemic issue.

So I do not think the KE would have been in China for 18 months doing nothing and Pakistan letting it sit there without an answer. It would receive upgrades but what level is a question we don't know. This electronic stuff is more secretive than revealing shape of new stealth drones, fighters, and bombers to be honest. It is the most important aspect of modern warfare so it is understandable some may think absolute top shelf AESA and EW technology is too sensitive to put on a foreign aircraft. But AESA itself has levels of technology and it has been in use and development in China for over 20 years now (starting during development of KJ-2000 and Type 346) and more than three generations of AWACS, EW, AEWC technology have been done. Pakistan probably won't receive the latest that PLA uses due to security principle alone but it can and should have AESA at least.

So for example sensitive and latest in use subsystem equipment level would be onboard these sorts of aircraft that are China's first line of defence against powerful USA.

















The sigint, elint, magnetic anomaly detector systems, and communication equipment used on these sorts of electronic networkers and situation awareness platforms. Or even KJ-200, KJ-500, KJ-600, Y-9G, Y-9XZ etc.

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## Scorpiooo

May


araz said:


> Bhai.
> Iam happy to accept the later explanation. I dont think it was upgraded asotherwise the rest of them would have gone over by now. However the manufacturers spent 18 months to decide it was not worth it? Still it is the most plausible along with cost vs benefit exercise. There may have been other issues.
> Anyways onwards and upwards. It seems PAF has gone down the Erieye route with more platforms.
> 
> Kind regards
> A


May be some major defects that need sort out in time then retesting .. no updates at all

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## mshan44



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## ghazi52



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## Ek620

I think we need to go for MLUs on ZDK-03


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## White privilege

So why did ZDK-03 lead the AWACS flypast?? Does this mean that it is now more advanced than Saab and hence the _primary _AEW&CS asset??


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## syed_yusuf

White privilege said:


> So why did ZDK-03 lead the AWACS flypast?? Does this mean that it is now more advanced than Saab and hence the _primary _AEW&CS asset??
> View attachment 827166


Just the optics I think


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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,.
24 Sqn.
Dassault Falcon DA-20 special-purpose aircraft.
This plane belongs to 24 squadron

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## air marshal



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## Scorpiooo

White privilege said:


> So why did ZDK-03 lead the AWACS flypast?? Does this mean that it is now more advanced than Saab and hence the _primary _AEW&CS asset??
> View attachment 827166


May be PAF or Army want to please Chinese



ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,.,.
> 24 Sqn.
> Dassault Falcon DA-20 special-purpose aircraft.
> This plane belongs to 24 squadron
> 
> View attachment 828504


Any chances of there addition in number or any other plateform ... Bcuz we just have 3 to 4 these


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## ghazi52

,,.,.




,.,.,.,.,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,.,.,.,.,




.,.,.,.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,.




,...,

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## ghazi52

..,
Karakoram Eagle - AWACS






The aircraft is capable of detecting hostile aerial and sea surface targets at long ranges irrespective of their height. It was inducted into the PAF’s No 4 Squadron - "The Predators"
With its induction, Pakistan air defence is now able to look deeper.

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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## White privilege

Date and location withheld.😁😄

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## Abid123

Pakistan considering buying AWACS from China?


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## MIRauf

Abid123 said:


> Pakistan considering buying AWACS from China?


4 are in inventory, don't think PAF was much impressed so the opted to get few more of the ERIEYE beside the replacement for the couple of destroyed ones.

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## Abid123

MIRauf said:


> 4 are in inventory, don't think PAF was much impressed so the opted to get few more of the ERIEYE beside the replacement for the couple of destroyed ones.


11 AWACS in service currently? Sounds very impressive for a "small" country like Pakistan.


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## White privilege

MIRauf said:


> 4 are in inventory, don't think PAF was much impressed so the opted to get few more of the ERIEYE beside the replacement for the couple of destroyed ones.


Lack of a suitable Chinese option is worrisome. PAF should pass on its experience and input for next Chinese AWACS project, for possible future acquisition, like it did for J-10C.


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## White and Green with M/S

White privilege said:


> Lack of a suitable Chinese option is worrisome.


We should go for KJ-500 for this purpose its AESA based AWACS or we should go to Swedish global eye


KJ-500

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## Princeps Senatus

White and Green with M/S said:


> We should go for KJ-500 for this purpose its AESA based AWACS or we should go to Swedish global eye
> 
> 
> KJ-500
> View attachment 840967


Why buy new airframes when we already have ZDK-03s? All that needs to be done is upgrade them to AESA if it has already not been done.


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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## MIRauf

White privilege said:


> Lack of a suitable Chinese option is worrisome. PAF should pass on its experience and input for next Chinese AWACS project, for possible future acquisition, like it did for J-10C.


Can read up write-ups on site QUWA, by Bilal & Co, or can search here for more info / data.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MIRauf said:


> 4 are in inventory, don't think PAF was much impressed so the opted to get few more of the ERIEYE beside the replacement for the couple of destroyed ones.





White privilege said:


> Lack of a suitable Chinese option is worrisome. PAF should pass on its experience and input for next Chinese AWACS project, for possible future acquisition, like it did for J-10C.


tbh I don't think the PAF will acquire any off-the-shelf AEW&C moving forward.

Since it is designing its own GaN AESA TRMs, the PAF's next-gen AEW&C will likely be an in-house project. China will still be involved (for obvious reasons -- Pakistan doesn't have the industrial base to source the TRMs), but the PAF will tailor its products from the ground up.

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## syed_yusuf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh I don't think the PAF will acquire any off-the-shelf AEW&C moving forward.
> 
> Since it is designing its own GaN AESA TRMs, the PAF's next-gen AEW&C will likely be an in-house project. China will still be involved (for obvious reasons -- Pakistan doesn't have the industrial base to source the TRMs), but the PAF will tailor its products from the ground up.


With all the sell out running the country and moving away from China why would China invest and help Pakistan

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> is designing its own GaN AESA TRMs


Masoomana sawal:
Why waste time in designing that TRMs which we can not produce ourselves or i am missing something here?


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## ghazi52

.,.
Eagle in the Desert






Pakistan Air Force ZDK-03 AWACS/AEW&C system is an airborne radar system designed to detect aircraft, ships, vehicles, missiles, and other incoming projectiles at long ranges and perform command and control of the battlespace in an air engagement by directing fighter and attack aircraft strikes. 
These units are also used to carry out surveillance, including over ground targets and frequently perform BMC2 (battle management command and control). When used at altitude, the radar on the aircraft allows the operators to detect and track targets and distinguish between friendly and hostile aircraft much farther away than a similar ground-based radar.
-Karakorum Eagle

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## Ali_Baba

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh I don't think the PAF will acquire any off-the-shelf AEW&C moving forward.
> 
> Since it is designing its own GaN AESA TRMs, the PAF's next-gen AEW&C will likely be an in-house project. China will still be involved (for obvious reasons -- Pakistan doesn't have the industrial base to source the TRMs), but the PAF will tailor its products from the ground up.



I completely agree with this - Pakistan is so so so close to having its own AEW&C/AWACs that it can now make the decision to dismiss external options and build its own AWACs and AEW&C platform as it has developed almost all of the technology in Pakistan already. Pakistan will never be allowed to get the Wedgetail and there will be noting else out there that it does not already own and or will be better than its own home build solution.

Pakistan has all the software it needs as part of developing its own ground AD radar tracking which was part of Project Vision and its derivative projects, it has also it own tactical data links and its own secure communications technology already aswell.









PAF’s Eagle-eyed view - Asian Military Review


The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has a single recognised air picture (RAP) that provides its air defenders with an eagle-eyed view.




www.asianmilitaryreview.com





_ It is difficult to know of such an air defence system anywhere else in the world that draws upon such a wide variety of foreign sensors. Clearly they have come up with a complex system. “No, not really,” said another spokesman, *“we use our very own indigenous multi-radar tracker, integrated into all of air defence systems. We don’t rely on the tracker of those particular systems.”*_​
Pakistan is left with the T&R modules and the final step of the packaging of all of its "own" technology into a platform - ideally hosted by a derivative of a Embraer 190... which they are working on as part of Project Sultan to understand and see how to do it.

Within 7-10 years - Pakistan can have its own platform once it sets that milestone.

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## 2ndFarhan__Ullah

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Masoomana sawal:
> Why waste time in designing that TRMs which we can not produce ourselves or i am missing something here?


You are definitely missing something here.

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## White privilege

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh I don't think the PAF will acquire any off-the-shelf AEW&C moving forward.
> 
> Since it is designing its own GaN AESA TRMs, the PAF's next-gen AEW&C will likely be an in-house project. China will still be involved (for obvious reasons -- Pakistan doesn't have the industrial base to source the TRMs), but the PAF will tailor its products from the ground up.


What are the _realistic ranges_ achievable through airborne radars?? There must be some cap on it before the beam encounters the curvature of the 🌎


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## tphuang

White privilege said:


> Lack of a suitable Chinese option is worrisome. PAF should pass on its experience and input for next Chinese AWACS project, for possible future acquisition, like it did for J-10C.



China has one of the most advanced awacs in the world with KJ500. It's just not available for export, since it's one generation ahead of kj2000 and phalcon type of radar. More importantly, the future of awacs is moving toward distributed and networking type of awacs. The current generation of transports ate just too unsurvivable in a contested environment.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Eagle in the Desert

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## Princeps Senatus

syed_yusuf said:


> With all the sell out running the country and moving away from China why would China invest and help Pakistan


the military's relationship with China has not changed one bit


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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Readerdefence

Hi once india start getting state of the art awacs from usa to counter China if by that time Pakistan doesn’t have anything of their own KJ500 will be upgraded on Chinese eagle for Pakistan & who knows one or two already been upgraded as at the moment Pakistan comfortable in handling Indian awacs so Chinese also satisfied 
beside their top notch technology they want to excel in that against USA bigger adversary rest is quad are not match with Chinese in terms of technology and money spending on defence 
ps most of the technology transfer or gain from Chinese source Pakistan never reveal it until unless some years down the line or may be to do show of hand 
if possible for someone learned members to track awacs eagle flying record we might be able to see which eagle is taking to sky more often then the other eagle 
thank you


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## Princeps Senatus

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 848489


that's a lot of antennae


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## Two banks of the River

Readerdefence said:


> Hi once india start getting state of the art awacs from usa


Not happening.


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,
Pakistan Air Force Karakoram Eagle airborne early warning planes give the PAF the ability to see a god’s eye view of the entire battlefield, control various assets and assign them targets, and communicate with all squadrons across platforms to achieve a superior strategy...

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## Readerdefence

Two banks of the River said:


> Not happening.


Hi why not & sometime back same been said about Poseidon P8 & India still getting more of these so by the time us willing to supply wedgetail E7 awacs I’m optimistic usa might push down excessive E3 to India to maintain some buffer between USA and China with Indian help 
if Indian has to remain in QUAD 
thank you


----------



## Two banks of the River

Readerdefence said:


> Hi why not & sometime back same been said about Poseidon P8 & India still getting more of these so by the time us willing to supply wedgetail E7 awacs I’m optimistic usa might push down excessive E3 to India to maintain some buffer between USA and China with Indian help
> if Indian has to remain in QUAD
> thank you


Regarding P8I Procurement the Indian Navy original planned numbers were 24. 12 have been ordered. Due to budget cuts the number of 12 more was cut down to 6 now. Government of India or Indian Navy never said that the plan has been fully cancelled, only that it's under review. 

Regarding AEWCS it's not actually so easy, much of the communication equipment on P8I, including Identification systems have been replaced. In the domain of Indian Ocean region , greater cooperation with USN is on the anvil, that's why American equipment going to IN is not a surprise. In future IN can even go for E2D.

But mainland India is a different story, IAF cannot depend on critical equipment supplied by USA. With the given budget of IAF , there are a certain number of AWACS we will procure. 6 Netra Mk2 are already on order and bigger ones are under development. E7 is a superb system but has its limitations on how we can use it. On E3 sentry, their service hours are near over, therefore cannot be really used by IAF. 

There is only one understanding being worked between India and USA. To open the front with China if it tries to invade Taiwan and USA will ensure something similar via Taiwan if China chooses India first. Beyond this we are more wary of Americans. 

USA devotes more time and money to do Surveillance against India compared to China.

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## Readerdefence

Two banks of the River said:


> Regarding P8I Procurement the Indian Navy original planned numbers were 24. 12 have been ordered. Due to budget cuts the number of 12 more was cut down to 6 now. Government of India or Indian Navy never said that the plan has been fully cancelled, only that it's under review.
> 
> Regarding AEWCS it's not actually so easy, much of the communication equipment on P8I, including Identification systems have been replaced. In the domain of Indian Ocean region , greater cooperation with USN is on the anvil, that's why American equipment going to IN is not a surprise. In future IN can even go for E2D.
> 
> But mainland India is a different story, IAF cannot depend on critical equipment supplied by USA. With the given budget of IAF , there are a certain number of AWACS we will procure. 6 Netra Mk2 are already on order and bigger ones are under development. E7 is a superb system but has its limitations on how we can use it. On E3 sentry, their service hours are near over, therefore cannot be really used by IAF.
> 
> There is only one understanding being worked between India and USA. To open the front with China if it tries to invade Taiwan and USA will ensure something similar via Taiwan if China chooses India first. Beyond this we are more wary of Americans.
> 
> USA devotes more time and money to do Surveillance against India compared to China.


Hi thanks for your detailed reply but don’t be offended india is no match to China Netra MK2 or at be later version are no match for Chinese KJ500 even usaf in limbo with their E3 against these awacs so either if not fully USA awacs Indian will get I out of E7 technology in later stages or need to buy these once available for export 
can you elaborate more about surveillance thing as compare to India vs china why on earth usa want his ally I’m not saying they don’t but doing more surveillance then adversary China 
E2D is not in league of big birds Kj500/E7 kind 
about opening front with China as being engaged with Taiwan I believe indian will never ever do anything stupid to engage china while China is busy with Taiwan 
coz that will start another kind of war engaging around more countries beside India & China as at the moment I don’t want to speculate about other idian neighbouring countries to jump in it 
thank you


----------



## araz

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your detailed reply but don’t be offended india is no match to China Netra MK2 or at be later version are no match for Chinese KJ500 even usaf in limbo with their E3 against these awacs so either if not fully USA awacs Indian will get I out of E7 technology in later stages or need to buy these once available for export
> can you elaborate more about surveillance thing as compare to India vs china why on earth usa want his ally I’m not saying they don’t but doing more surveillance then adversary China
> E2D is not in league of big birds Kj500/E7 kind
> about opening front with China as being engaged with Taiwan I believe indian will never ever do anything stupid to engage china while China is busy with Taiwan
> coz that will start another kind of war engaging around more countries beside India & China as at the moment I don’t want to speculate about other idian neighbouring countries to jump in it
> thank you


I think the strategy is to create enough of a risk on the Indo China border for China to keep forces engaged. This dilutes your effort and the risk of a 2 front war means this will always be kept in the Chinese calculus.
Regarding Indo China actual engagement the Indians are far too wise to fall for it. Unless US unleashes its full force and decimates China by some mechanism, the Indians will not move in. As this seems increasingly unlikely the Indians will simply maintain pressure at the borders. If they do go in, they will go in only when victory is assured. My analysis and view therefore feel free to disagree

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## Two banks of the River

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your detailed reply but don’t be offended india is no match to China Netra MK2 or at be later version are no match for Chinese KJ500 even usaf in limbo with their E3 against these awacs so either if not fully USA awacs Indian will get I out of E7 technology in later stages or need to buy these once available for export
> can you elaborate more about surveillance thing as compare to India vs china why on earth usa want his ally I’m not saying they don’t but doing more surveillance then adversary China
> E2D is not in league of big birds Kj500/E7 kind
> about opening front with China as being engaged with Taiwan I believe indian will never ever do anything stupid to engage china while China is busy with Taiwan
> coz that will start another kind of war engaging around more countries beside India & China as at the moment I don’t want to speculate about other idian neighbouring countries to jump in it
> thank you


The systems might not be the best. The aim for now is to have a system which can be replaced during or just before the conflict. We cannot do so on a foreign owned system. 

As this is an AWACS thread, better you can create a new thread and then we can have a conversation there regarding the another part.

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## arslank03

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your detailed reply but don’t be offended india is no match to China Netra MK2 or at be later version are no match for Chinese KJ500 even usaf in limbo with their E3 against these awacs so either if not fully USA awacs Indian will get I out of E7 technology in later stages or need to buy these once available for export
> can you elaborate more about surveillance thing as compare to India vs china why on earth usa want his ally I’m not saying they don’t but doing more surveillance then adversary China
> E2D is not in league of big birds Kj500/E7 kind
> about opening front with China as being engaged with Taiwan I believe indian will never ever do anything stupid to engage china while China is busy with Taiwan
> coz that will start another kind of war engaging around more countries beside India & China as at the moment I don’t want to speculate about other idian neighbouring countries to jump in it
> thank you



You're right, the *E2D is in a league of its own. Its hands down, one of the most, if not the most capable AWACS to exist*. It is built off of modern hardware and continuously evolved. Its insanely powerful, with a* stop/stare range of over 1000km,* the Limiting factor is the platform and operator size really.


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## LKJ86

Via @FatZong from Weibo

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## Great Janjua

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 864022
> View attachment 864023
> View attachment 864024
> 
> Via @FatZong from Weibo


upgraded ?


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## Princeps Senatus

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 864022
> View attachment 864023
> View attachment 864024
> 
> Via @FatZong from Weibo


Are these recent?


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## time pass

Great Janjua said:


> upgraded ?



Rumors were that ZDK03s would be upgraded to KJ500 standards but no confirmation...

Further, same sources claimed that PAF is in talks with SAAB to upgrade Erieys to Global Eye but again no confirmation...


*PS:* This is the same source that claimed that PN will order 2 additional Damen OPVs based on the evaluation of 1st 2 ships....

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## ali_raza

time pass said:


> Rumors were that ZDK03s would be upgraded to KJ500 standards but no confirmation...
> 
> Further, same sources claimed that PAF is in talks with SAAB to upgrade Erieys to Global Eye but again no confirmation...
> 
> 
> *PS:* This is the same source that claimed that PN will order 2 additional Damen OPVs based on the evaluation of 1st 2 ships....


global eye system has nothing out of world just its radar is erieye er variant and plus it has some naval sensors like sea spray radars and some other goodie’s which we bought them separately from italians and brits
i must say we are close if not to the level of global eye
many things are still under wraps 
considering we also started our own sea sultan project which is connected to the same project

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## arslank03

time pass said:


> Rumors were that ZDK03s would be upgraded to KJ500 standards but no confirmation...
> 
> Further, same sources claimed that PAF is in talks with SAAB to upgrade Erieys to Global Eye but again no confirmation...
> 
> 
> *PS:* This is the same source that claimed that PN will order 2 additional Damen OPVs based on the evaluation of 1st 2 ships....


yeh CNS said we would buy more OPV lol...

Globaleye isnt a conversion, the PAF is still buying erieyes.



ali_raza said:


> global eye system has nothing out of world just its radar is erieye er variant and plus it has some naval sensors like sea spray radars and some other goodie’s which we bought them separately from italians and brits
> i must say we are close if not to the level of global eye
> many things are still under wraps
> considering we also started our own sea sultan project which is connected to the same project


not true, we are nowhere near what the globaleye offers. Just because we contracted some companies to put their gear on an airframe we provided, does not mean we have suddenly made a globaleye competirtor


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## ali_raza

arslank03 said:


> yeh CNS said we would buy more OPV lol...
> 
> Globaleye isnt a conversion, the PAF is still buying erieyes.
> 
> 
> not true, we are nowhere near what the globaleye offers. Just because we contracted some companies to put their gear on an airframe we provided, does not mean we have suddenly made a globaleye competirtor


then wht u suggest 
i told u we are close means we are close
the capabilities offered in the system are available in one form or the other


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## Windjammer

Sunbathing at Masroor Airbase

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

EADS CASA C295 AEW

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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> Sunbathing at Masroor Airbase
> View attachment 867830


Last time they have sunbathing at kamra and then taliban give them blood bath .same can be said naval p3c

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## White privilege

Imran Khan said:


> Last time they have sunbathing at kamra and then taliban give them blood bath .same can be said naval p3c


Get a hobby man, or this hate will consume you, not that it would matter given the extent you have gone to recently.


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## Imran Khan

White privilege said:


> Get a hobby man, or this hate will consume you, not that it would matter given the extent you have gone to recently.


Did i say something wrong ?

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## White privilege

Imran Khan said:


> Did i say something wrong ?


You took a potshot at the military, disguising it as a recall of a devastating attack on the nation, over a post that is meant to showcase our military power. Your political views are very well known. You really think you were subtle ???

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## Falcon26

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> EADS CASA C295 AEW
> View attachment 871582



What does this picture has to do with Pakistan?

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## Ali_Baba

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> EADS CASA C295 AEW
> View attachment 871582



That is a failed project - no takers for it.


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## Imran Khan

White privilege said:


> You took a potshot at the military, disguising it as a recall of a devastating attack on the nation, over a post that is meant to showcase our military power. Your political views are very well known. You really think you were subtle ???


Its seems truth is hurting but its truth


White privilege said:


> You took a potshot at the military, disguising it as a recall of a devastating attack on the nation, over a post that is meant to showcase our military power. Your political views are very well known. You really think you were subtle ???

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## Signalian

Imran Khan said:


> Did i say something wrong ?


Should have mentioned the security detail and QRF entitled for protection of PAF's assets.

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## Zarvan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> EADS CASA C295 AEW
> View attachment 871582


Pakistan should produce Military Transport plane in Pakistan. It's time we produce one helicopter one and one military transport plane in Pakistan. And as we repaired the AWAC on our own it's time we develop a AWAC system on our own. That could be less capable as other systems but it would be our own and we can with time learn and improve it.

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## Zarvan

time pass said:


> Rumors were that ZDK03s would be upgraded to KJ500 standards but no confirmation...
> 
> Further, same sources claimed that PAF is in talks with SAAB to upgrade Erieys to Global Eye but again no confirmation...
> 
> 
> *PS:* This is the same source that claimed that PN will order 2 additional Damen OPVs based on the evaluation of 1st 2 ships....


Well that Damen ship news have come to be true so let see how much of other two about AWACS prove to be true


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## khail007

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should produce Military Transport plane in Pakistan. It's time we produce one helicopter one and one military transport plane in Pakistan. And as we repaired the AWAC on our own it's time we develop a AWAC system on our own. That could be less capable as other systems but it would be our own and we can with time learn and improve it.



Agreed, the expertise availed should be utilized and not be lost.
The same mistake of the French submarine assembling experience is not to be repeated.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should produce Military Transport plane in Pakistan. It's time we produce one helicopter one and one military transport plane in Pakistan. And as we repaired the AWAC on our own it's time we develop a AWAC system on our own. That could be less capable as other systems but it would be our own and we can with time learn and improve it.


To locally produce something, you need a large requirement to distribute the high upfront cost of the manufacturing line (overhead). 

In the best-case scenario, the PAF would order 32 medium-weight transport aircraft. That isn't nearly enough to absorb the production overhead. Rather, Pakistan would do better by joining the production supply chain of an existing aircraft, like the Embraer C390. If the PAF committed to 32 C390s over a period of 12-15 years, I'm sure Embraer would consider the possibility of sending a serious chunk of the production work to Pakistan.

Now, when it comes to helicopters, the best route might be to work with Turkey on the T625 and T629. This is a common platform with the same engine, rotor, and other high-value parts that can result in both a utility helicopter (T625) or attack helicopter (T629).

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To locally produce something, you need a large requirement to distribute the high upfront cost of the manufacturing line (overhead).
> 
> In the best-case scenario, the PAF would order 32 medium-weight transport aircraft. That isn't nearly enough to absorb the production overhead. Rather, Pakistan would do better by joining the production supply chain of an existing aircraft, like the Embraer C390. If the PAF committed to 32 C390s over a period of 12-15 years, I'm sure Embraer would consider the possibility of sending a serious chunk of the production work to Pakistan.
> 
> Now, when it comes to helicopters, the best route might be to work with Turkey on the T625 and T629. This is a common platform with the same engine, rotor, and other high-value parts that can result in both a utility helicopter (T625) or attack helicopter (T629).


Sir everything needs money and every thing needs new infrastructure but that should not stop us from doing it. Sooner or later we would have to do this. We have to start and slowly build up things. But they have to be started we can't keep delaying these matters. We are not that big country but we are not that small country also.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Sir *everything needs money *and every thing needs new infrastructure but that should not stop us from doing it. Sooner or later we would have to do this. We have to start and slowly build up things. But they have to be started we can't keep delaying these matters. We are not that big country but we are not that small country also.


Exactly, and we can't afford to put money into something when we need to spend it elsewhere, like on the NGFA.

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## White privilege

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Exactly, and we can't afford to put money into something when we need to spend it elsewhere, like on the NGFA.


Why haven't we equipped our AEW assets with IFR system?? Is it not feasible??


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## Abid123

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Exactly, and we can't afford to put money into something when we need to spend it elsewhere, like on the NGFA.


Shame that a country of 200 million+ basically has no money.

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## arslank03

Abid123 said:


> Shame that a country of 200 million+ basically has no money.


awam should step up and pay their taxes then


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## araz

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should produce Military Transport plane in Pakistan. It's time we produce one helicopter one and one military transport plane in Pakistan. And as we repaired the AWAC on our own it's time we develop a AWAC system on our own. That could be less capable as other systems but it would be our own and we can with time learn and improve it.


Bhai 
Please think of economy of scales. How many military transport planes we will need. Unless you are suggesting a dual use platform which can see functioning in Civilian usage as well. Secondly how many helicopters do we really need . What are your outlays and what benefits are there in developing these technologies ourselves. We are talking of 2 simultaneous projects which will be exhaustive on our meagre resources, take 10-15 years to develop. Where will we get engines from? Understand that neither China, nor Russia or the US/EU will provide you with engines as these will impact on their sales. We simply do not have the industrial base, nor the need for such programmes. Look at China, their military plane is still not ready and widely used. And their need is much more than ours. What we can do is take it in stages with a country which has an ongoing project and invite 2-3 other participants with an interest in procuring this project. However demand for these platforms remains low so i dont know how many we will be able to build to make it economically viable. However, I am sure it is not an economically viable project for pakistan to go alone on.
A

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## Zephyrus

White privilege said:


> Why haven't we equipped our AEW assets with IFR system?? Is it not feasible??


Because our AEW assets don't have to go across oceans or vast expanses of land; 
IFR is for two reasons;
1- Increase in range
2- Increase in loitering time
Why do you need an increase in range when your AEW assets will be flying within your own airspace;
Why do you need an increase in loitering time when your AEW assets have a Time on station of roughly 6-8 hrs;

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## Abid123

arslank03 said:


> awam should step up and pay their taxes then


Absolutely. Pakistani goverment is missing out on 100 billion USD every year in tax revenue. Not included in GDP by the way. Imagine 100 billion USD being spend every year on education, health care, infrastructure, Research & Development, arms procurement for the military etc...

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## araz

Does anyone know whether PA has inducted/ has any plans to induct short range drones for area reconnescence and whether any progress has been made in this regards. This-will require wide spread usage amongst small groups of forces out on reccee and advance warning for convoys.20-30 km range should be enough although flight ceiling should be high to avoid detection. Secondly are jammers now part of all convoys moving in potentially dangerous areas?
A

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## farooqbhai007

araz said:


> Does anyone know whether PA has inducted/ has any plans to induct short range drones for area reconnescence and whether any progress has been made in this regards. This-will require wide spread usage amongst small groups of forces out on reccee and advance warning for convoys.20-30 km range should be enough although flight ceiling should be high to avoid detection. Secondly are jammers now part of all convoys moving in potentially dangerous areas?
> A








Something similar to this ? If nrtc made it then it probably has been inducted.
Apart from that quad and octacopters are inducted into all major units I think.

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## khail007

arslank03 said:


> awam should step up and pay their taxes then



First priority, the people of Pakistan should ensure that their hard-earned money is not to be looted by corrupt criminals and invested in foreign countries.

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## arslank03

khail007 said:


> First priority, the people of Pakistan should ensure that their hard-earned money is not to be looted by corrupt criminals and invested in foreign countries.


the people of Pakistan could not care less. Just go on an international flight with Pakistanis, its almost like they have no respect for anything and care only for themselves. Remember when PIA premier launched and passengers looted even the soap from the bathroom... Pakistanis should first focus on not looting the state for everything it has then worry about others looting things later

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## khail007

arslank03 said:


> the people of Pakistan could not care less. Just go on an international flight with Pakistanis, its almost like they have no respect for anything and care only for themselves. Remember when PIA premier launched and passengers looted even the soap from the bathroom... Pakistanis should first focus on not looting the state for everything it has then worry about others looting things later



When criminally convicted thieves, liars, absconders, thugs, and robbers become national leaders of a nation then such things are inevitable.

Can't understand the philosophy of asking to pay the taxes while the criminal bunch in government invested their black money in properties and businesses in foreign countries. No justification.

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## arslank03

khail007 said:


> When criminally convicted thieves, liars, absconders, thugs, and robbers become national leaders of a nation then such things are inevitable.
> 
> Can't understand the philosophy of asking to pay the taxes while the criminal bunch in government invested their black money in properties and businesses in foreign countries. No justification.


accountability starts with yourself.

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## khail007

arslank03 said:


> accountability starts with yourself.



Right.
And introspection is ones own domain.

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## Windjammer

Displayed in China Airshow.

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## Tank131

khail007 said:


> When criminally convicted thieves, liars, absconders, thugs, and robbers become national leaders of a nation then such things are inevitable.
> 
> Can't understand the philosophy of asking to pay the taxes while the criminal bunch in government invested their black money in properties and businesses in foreign countries. No justification.


This is the excuse for people who don't want to take ownership of the fate of the country. I won't pay my share because the leader is a crook. Well, the leader may be a crook because people dont pay their taxes, leading to bad infrastructure, poor healthcare, poor education, and poverty, ensuring an environment conducive for the rampant corruption and mismanagement that exists in Pakistan today. Leaders in America are also crooks (just better at hiding it). People pay their taxes still. Because we want the services we deserve, the money comes from somewhere. Pakistani who refuse to pay taxes are not patriots. They have contributed to the overall scenario playing out all over Pakistan.

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## Bratva



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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571205825707769857
@farooqbhai007


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## syed_yusuf

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571205825707769857
> @farooqbhai007


Yes 9 saab 2000 of that 6-7 are awecs enabled


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## Tank131

I think the number of AWEC is 11.

4 erieye ordered originally (2 damaged, 1 destroyed, but all were apparently restored/repaired to working order.

3 erieye ordered in 2017

4 ZDK-03
---
11 AWEC : still more than most other nations. Only ones with more are:

1. USA - 87 split between navy and AF
2. China - 28 split between Navy and AF
3. Russia - 16 only AF
4. Japan - 17 Split between navy and "defense force" 
5. NATO - 16

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## farooqbhai007

syed_yusuf said:


> Yes 9 saab 2000 of that 6-7 are awecs enabled


no ,
PAF has got :
Original 3 of 4 Erieyes active as 1 was lost and considered write off , and 2 were repaired. 
Then 2nd batch of 3 more Erieyes in 2017-2018.
Then a 3rd batch which was spotted by aviation spotters of atleast 2 Erieyes being delivered in 2021-22.

So this way PAF has got 8 Erieyes operational while total number would be 9 including the write off one. Also PAF also has a single EO sensor fitted ISR SAAB-2000.


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## syed_yusuf

farooqbhai007 said:


> no ,
> PAF has got :
> Original 3 of 4 Erieyes active as 1 was lost and considered write off , and 2 were repaired.
> Then 2nd batch of 3 more Erieyes in 2017-2018.
> Then a 3rd batch which was spotted by aviation spotters of atleast 2 Erieyes being delivered in 2021-22.
> 
> So this way PAF has got 8 Erieyes operational while total number would be 9 including the write off one. Also PAF also has a single EO sensor fitted ISR SAAB-2000.


Last 2 you mention is not confirmed or verified.


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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535842037802598400

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574935431623643137

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565531473133830144

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563516515453784066


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## Princeps Senatus

Solidify said:


> Why do we have these Early Waring Awacs
> when u got pml traitors Nawaz + Bajwa + SS + Ishaq Dar runing the country from inside left to right ?
> 
> Pakistanis are IDIOTS

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## Ghessan

farooqbhai007 said:


> no ,
> PAF has got :
> Original 3 of 4 Erieyes active as 1 was lost and considered write off , and 2 were repaired.
> Then 2nd batch of 3 more Erieyes in 2017-2018.
> Then a 3rd batch which was spotted by aviation spotters of atleast 2 Erieyes being delivered in 2021-22.
> 
> So this way PAF has got 8 Erieyes operational while total number would be 9 including the write off one. Also PAF also has a single EO sensor fitted ISR SAAB-2000.


isn't it that one of them ordered/bought initially was not fitted with Erieye system?


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## ghazi52

.,.,
Pakistan Air Force J-10C multirole fighter flying alongside two AEWACs; a Saab 2000 Erieye and a ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle.

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## Super Falcon

Bombardier based global eye on cards for PAF in next few years

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## IblinI

Tank131 said:


> 1. USA - 87 split between navy and AF
> 2. China - 28 split between Navy and AF
> 3. Russia - 16 only AF
> 4. Japan - 17 Split between navy and "defense force"
> 5. NATO - 16


We definitely have more than 28 AWEC.


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## Ali_Baba

Super Falcon said:


> Bombardier based global eye on cards for PAF in next few years



I dont see Pakistan getting the Global Eye - truly. 

Given the rate at which advances that both Turkey and China are making and how Sweden has tied itself up in knots over the "India-Pakistan" relationship - it will be from either of these providers.


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## Super Falcon

Ali_Baba said:


> I dont see Pakistan getting the Global Eye - truly.
> 
> Given the rate at which advances that both Turkey and China are making and how Sweden has tied itself up in knots over the "India-Pakistan" relationship - it will be from either of these providers.


PAF NEEDS JET ENGINE BASED ERIEYE TO COMPLMENT EXISTING PROPELER BASED FLEET WHICH IS MAINTANANCE HUNGRY AND SAAB 2000 IS NO MORE IN PRODUCTION AND THIER SPARES HARD TO COME BY SO GULFSTREAMIS A PERFECT MATCH WHICH PAF CONSIDERING

HAWA STANDOFF JAM,MER IS TOTTALY DIFFERENT PROJECT 

GLOBAL EYE IS NEED OF HOUR 2 PLATFORMS MIGHT BE BOUGHT OF GLOBAL EYE WHICH HAS GREATER RANGE THAN EXISTING SAAB 200 BASED PLATFORMS OF ERIEYE


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## ghazi52

,.,.
Good night !!!
Absolutely stunning photograph of a Pakistan Air Force Saab 2000 Erieye Airborne Early Warning and Control System aircraft, assigned to the 33rd Tactical Wing’s No. 3 ‘Angels’ Squad, Northern Air Command PAF...

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Some of the PAF’s force multiplier assets

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## White privilege

Since we have seen a rapid push to acquire more Erieyes since Feb 27 engagement, is it safe to say that PAF is _sidelining the Karakorum Eagle?? _Did it not live up to its expected potential and become a white elephant??


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## Mig hunter

White privilege said:


> Since we have seen a rapid push to acquire more Erieyes since Feb 27 engagement, is it safe to say that PAF is _sidelining the Karakorum Eagle?? _Did it not live up to its expected potential and become a white elephant??


You are very close..


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## White privilege

Mig hunter said:


> You are very close..


The bird just looks outdated with that rotating dome. Now is the era of electronically scanned arrays. I believe it was revealed on this forum that one of the aircraft had an ESA installed recently, so they are trying to make it fit. But it is well known how Chinese create compromises to achieve certain performance parameters. So it would be interesting to know how much performance upgrade potential is there. Also when we got them, the goal was to not get marooned if sanctions kick in during hostilities and Erieyes are affected. I hope upcoming indigenous solutions rectify these problems.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Horse_Rider

Tank131 said:


> I think the number of AWEC is 11.
> 
> 4 erieye ordered originally (2 damaged, 1 destroyed, but all were apparently restored/repaired to working order.
> 
> 3 erieye ordered in 2017
> 
> 4 ZDK-03
> ---
> 11 AWEC : still more than most other nations. Only ones with more are:
> 
> 1. USA - 87 split between navy and AF
> 2. China - 28 split between Navy and AF
> 3. Russia - 16 only AF
> 4. Japan - 17 Split between navy and "defense force"
> 5. NATO - 16



3+3+2+4 (Erieye + ZDK) = 12. You are right, it's a decent sized number and counts for 40% losses in a war yet still cover the entire country and it's coastline + EEZ.

Can't compare our AEWC capability with others. US, China, Russia, Japan and NATO have HUGE OTH Radars (UV/UHF/VLF/Broad Spectrum, etc,), plus shipborne radars like the Aegis systems, that can literally see and track hundreds of objects including small missiles from thousands of miles away. In these scenarios, the AEWC is rather focus for tactical support for battlefield operations.


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## Horse_Rider

Super Falcon said:


> Bombardier based global eye on cards for PAF in next few years



No need to. When the Erieye will go for a mid-life upgrade, they will automatically be upgraded to the Global Eye standard. Global Eye is not a separate system, it's a more advanced version of what Pakistan has.

I hope the PAF acquires AKINCI with AESA and use those as much cheaper AEW options. 4 Akinci's with 350+ KM AESA can provide amazing low cost AEW support to our existing AEW systems and can cover the entire Pakistan and the coastline. Plus, these can actually carry BVR missiles at the same time too, so they can not only provide early warning, they can actually respond with BVR weapons.

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## Tank131

Horse_Rider said:


> No need to. When the Erieye will go for a mid-life upgrade, they will automatically be upgraded to the Global Eye standard. Global Eye is not a separate system, it's a more advanced version of what Pakistan has.
> 
> I hope the PAF acquires AKINCI with AESA and use those as much cheaper AEW options. 4 Akinci's with 350+ KM AESA can provide amazing low cost AEW support to our existing AEW systems and can cover the entire Pakistan and the coastline. Plus, these can actually carry BVR missiles at the same time too, so they can not only provide early warning, they can actually respond with BVR weapons.


I think this is something the navy should also be able to utilize well. Instead of routing ZDK to Navy for assistance, having a stealthier and smaller aircraft like Akinci for the navy which can not only utilize BVR missiles but also use SOM, will make a huge impact for PN. They can be used as drone swarms with 2 BVR AND a SOM to overwhelm any IN task force when used in conjunction with JF-17.

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## Horse_Rider

White privilege said:


> The bird just looks outdated with that rotating dome. Now is the era of electronically scanned arrays.



The US still uses rotating domes on E-3 Sentry and E-3's run wars, infact multiple wars at certain times in the history managing many dozens of airborn and ground assets. So rotating radar doesn't mean anything.

The ZDK-03 is not pulse doppler if that's what you were trying to say. The ZDK-03 is a customized KJ-500, it has TWO rotating AESA radars so it's the latest capability any nation can have. It should have larger range than the Erieyes and a full 360 degree view.



Tank131 said:


> I think this is something the navy should also be able to utilize well. Instead of routing ZDK to Navy for assistance, having a stealthier and smaller aircraft like Akinci for the navy which can not only utilize BVR missiles but also use SOM, will make a huge impact for PN. They can be used as drone swarms with 2 BVR AND a SOM to overwhelm any IN task force when used in conjunction with JF-17.



I agree. But larger numbers of Akinci's will be needed to create an effective volley of SOM's, plus use J-10CP's, not JF-17 as it's still lighter. The Ukraine war teaches us how the current airdefenses can take out up to 70%+ invading subsonic missiles. We need large numbers of supersonic cruise missiles (sea, land, air) akin to the Prithvi (high machs, near hypersonic speeds).


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## Tank131

Horse_Rider said:


> The US still uses rotating domes on E-3 Sentry and E-3's run wars, infact multiple wars at certain times in the history managing many dozens of airborn and ground assets. So rotating radar doesn't mean anything.
> 
> The ZDK-03 is not pulse doppler if that's what you were trying to say. The ZDK-03 is a customized KJ-500, it has TWO rotating AESA radars so it's the latest capability any nation can have. It should have larger range than the Erieyes and a full 360 degree view.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. But larger numbers of Akinci's will be needed to create an effective volley of SOM's, plus use J-10CP's, not JF-17 as it's still lighter. The Ukraine war teaches us how the current airdefenses can take out up to 70%+ invading subsonic missiles. We need large numbers of supersonic cruise missiles (sea, land, air) akin to the Prithvi (high machs, near hypersonic speeds).


With respect to hypersonic missiles, CM-302 and CM-400AKG should be able to take care of that role. The SOM (which frankly should be acquired for UCAV use) an other subsonic missiles are still not without their use however. Launching a number of Zarb (c-602) from land, SOM from Akinci and harbah from various PN Ships like Baburs and Azmats will likely deplete if not overwhelm if IN Ships. Remember, besides other Visakhapatnam-class and Kalkota class destroyers which have 32 Barak-8, none of the other IN ships are well suited to take out numerous missiles at once. Most of their otger destroyers and frigates operate single armed Shtil launchers which fire 1 missile every 10 seconds (not conducive to taking out numerous missiles). These are backed by Barak-1 in most cases which leaves a lot to be desired.

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## Horse_Rider

Tank131 said:


> With respect to hypersonic missiles, CM-302 and CM-400AKG should be able to take care of that role. The SOM (which frankly should be acquired for UCAV use) an other subsonic missiles are still not without their use however. Launching a number of Zarb (c-602) from land, SOM from Akinci and harbah from various PN Ships like Baburs and Azmats will likely deplete if not overwhelm if IN Ships. Remember, besides other Visakhapatnam-class and Kalkota class destroyers which have 32 Barak-8, none of the other IN ships are well suited to take out numerous missiles at once. Most of their otger destroyers and frigates operate single armed Shtil launchers which fire 1 missile every 10 seconds (not conducive to taking out numerous missiles). These are backed by Barak-1 in most cases which leaves a lot to be desired.



You are looking at today. I'm looking at tomorrow when a conflict arises. India is bound to either buy or build and deploy an AEGIS like AEW - AD system. The US would want that so it's missile defense system becomes universal and obviously, India gets huge benefit out of it. So in that scenario and compare to Ukraine now, if S-300 MPU could take out 70%+ inbound subsonic cruise missiles, that's bound to happen in our case too. Probably more so as India is a much larger economy and country vs. the Ukraine and can deploy a huge number of AD's. We on the other hand are smaller with much less money. We can't afford 70% of our missiles shot down as we may not have enough post volley 2 or 3!

Now compare the 70%+ loss of subsonic missiles with say Kinzahl. Not ONE was shot down. In fact, in the early days, when Ukraine was begging for AD systems post Kinzahl's use, a reporter asked Biden and he referred to Kinzahl saying "there is nothing that can stop it". The issue was, these were Russian strategic missiles against NATO so they couldn't use them over and over. This scenario applies to us too. Need high mach (4+) missiles in numbers (near Hypersonic spectrum if not Hypersonic). India acquired Prithvi learning these realities. We need numbers of CM-302 and CM-400 AKG. Do you know their speed?


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## Path-Finder

inside cockpit simulator of karakorum eagle AEWEC

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## ghazi52

,.,.


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## Princeps Senatus




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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE




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## Super Falcon

melb4aust said:


> I wanna have a comparison between the Israel made "Phalcon" and Swedish made "Eireye". In which areas Phalcon Radar is better than or have an edge on Eireye or none.
> 
> Remember, In 1986 Pakistan did attempt to acquire a AWACS aircraft E-3 Sentinel from US however the U.S didnt sell it and instead offered the sub-par E-2 Hawkeye. And Phalcon is a similar kind of system as E-3.
> 
> View attachment 50626
> 
> 
> I have gone through some article according to them Pakistani govrnment made so many blunders in late 70's and 1980's one of them was to disapprove the deal for the production of Mirage-F1 fighters at KAMRA and later Mirage-2000. It was totally approved my french government and US has nothing to do with that too that time.


Phalcons AWACS is much more sophisticated technology than E 3 santry even USAF want to retire them India have better AWACS in phalcons system it's radars give iaf 360 degree coverage pak erimeye only has 300 degree coverage and phalcons can track much more threats at longer ranges of UpTo 700 km with it's ELM 2090 aesa radar pak erieye only tracks less number of targets

IAF will have more AWACS with its domestically built netra similar to erieye netra awacs


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