# INS Vikramaditya commissioned



## [Bregs]

New Delhi: Aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya will not have any air defence systems on board to protect itself from aerial attacks while coming home from Russia and the Navy has sent warships to escort it safely.

To provide it protection from aerial attacks, the Navy has chosen the controversial Barak missiles, which will be integrated with the aircraft carrier only after it reaches India.

“The aircraft carrier Vikramaditya does not have its own air defence missile system. We have chosen the Barak missile to be fitted on board once it arrives in India,” a Navy official said in New Delhi.

The escort group of warships has been sent to Russia to bring the carrier to India through a classified route to bring it to its home base in the Arabian Sea, they said.

It is believed that the escort group also includes underwater vessels for providing security to the warship.

The Barak missiles, the Navy’s choice for the aircraft carrier, are also in controversy in view of an ongoing CBI probe against them in connection with an alleged bribery scandal of 2006.

The Defence Acquisition Council, the apex defence ministry body for deciding on acquisitions, has also formed an independent committee to take a decision on whether to buy the missiles or not.

Defence Minister AK Antony will induct the long-delayed aircraft carrier into the Navy in a shipyard in Russia, where the second-hand warship has been undergoing refurbishment for the last over six years.

The Navy has plans of bringing the warship to India and deploy it at the newly-developed Karwar naval base called Project Seabird.

The warship, which was given for ‘free’ to India in 2004, is ultimately going to cost more than Rs 12,000 crore to the nation.



Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/india/wars...oute-home-1230323.html?utm_source=ref_article

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## Ammyy

Who will attack it?


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## Imran Khan

muft main apna bhaav bardhana or news create kerna koi india se seekhy . 

yesterday C-130J reach Philippines ary bhai kher to hai ? kya history create ho gai ? a small movement they make it very big don't know why

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## Jai_Hind

Ammyy said:


> Who will attack it?



The country where this website is based....

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## PlanetWarrior

Imran Khan said:


> muft main apna bhaav bardhana or news create kerna koi india se seekhy .
> 
> yesterday C-130J reach Philippines ary bhai kher to hai ? kya history create ho gai ? a small movement they make it very big don't know why


 
Imran bhai, we should have it stop in Karachi to fetch you then it will make history ?

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## Afghan-India

Ammyy said:


> Who will attack it?


It is always good to prepare for the worst, even though it seems unlikely.

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## Abingdonboy

Ammyy said:


> Who will attack it?


Silly question really, what's the point in CBGs going by this logic? 

I was wondering if the IN would be escorting it back or not, good move IMHO. 


[Bregs] said:


> The Barak missiles, the Navy’s choice for the aircraft carrier, are also in controversy in view of an ongoing CBI probe against them in connection with an alleged bribery scandal of 2006.





[Bregs] said:


> has chosen the *controversial* Barak missiles, which will be integrated with the aircraft carrier only after it reaches India.


B@stards in the media can't produce a simple report without sensationalism can they? 


And anyway haven't they heard the latest:

CBI set to close Barak probe, MoD readies to buy missiles

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## IBRIS

How many MIG-29K's are going to be on the ship while cruising back to Mother Land.?

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## Capt.Popeye

The original news-report has an element of hype and bombast built into it. _Hah_; protection from aerial attack indeed!!

There has been earlier examples of newly inducted ships from SU/Russia either sailing in company or with an escort. And that had/has nothing to do with any attacks!
A new ship that has not been fully 'worked up' yet by its Commissioning Crew will sail with some restrictions imposed. For example the early Foxtrot Subs always had a Surface Ship escort on the voyage home. Till one voyage where the Escort Ship, a Leopard Class Frigate (the old Brahmaputra class) was found to be putting in Port Calls for refuelling more frequently than the Foxtrot which was merrily sailing away at endurance speed! So it was considered better to sail even two Foxtrots together rather than that odd combination. But that had to with that the fact that the Leopards had rather thirsty Diesel propulsion. The Petyas and Nanuchkas too came all the way from the Baltic either in pairs or in company of some other ship. Only the Osa Missile Boats were barged across on the decks of Freighters, but they had minimal endurance plus they were HELL to sail in even in the slightest choppy seas.

On the other hand; the Chinese opted to barge their Kilo Subs on Semi-Submersible Ships rather than sail them on their Delivery Voyages home from Russia. They must have had sound reasons for doing so.

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## Brahmos_2

Jai_Hind said:


> The country where this website is based....



....LOL!!

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## 帅的一匹

India had been waiting decades for this baby coming.....Congratulation

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## Brahmos_2

NDTV is reporting that *Kochi* will be its first stop in India,where it will be fitted with Barak missiles.

Indian warships to escort aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya from Russia | NDTV.com

Some one from Kochi, get your cameras ready....

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## adwityagrata

Barak 2 or Barak 8 ?

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## bloo

Ammyy said:


> Who will attack it?


 My signature answers your questions.


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## bloo

INS Vikramaditya to be included into Indian Navy *Today*

*




*

Defence Minister A.K Antony will be inducting the aircraft carrier into the force in the presence of Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin and Senior Government and naval officials of the two countries.
The aircraft carrier will be inducted in the Indian Navy at the Sevmash Shipyard, Russia’s nuclear submarine building centre.

INS Vikramaditya is a Kiev class aircraft carrier which was commissioned by Russian Navy in 1987 under the name Baku.

It was later renamed as Admiral Gorshkov and last sailed in 1995 in Russia, before being offered to India.

The 44,500 tonne warship with a length of 284 metres will have MiG-29K naval combat aircraft along with Kamov 31 and Kamov 28 anti-submarine warfare and maritime surveillance helicopters.

The MiG 29-Ks would provide a significant boost to Indian Navy with their range of over 700 nautical miles, extendable to over 1,900 nautical miles with mid-air refuelling, and an array of weapons like anti-ship missiles, beyond visual range air-to-air missiles and guided bombs and rockets.

After almost nine years of negotiations the initial $ 1.5 billion contract for retrofitting the aircraft carrier and buying 16 MiG-29K, K/UB deck-based fighters was signed in 2004.

In 1998, to break the deadlock, the Government of then Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov had offered the aircraft carrier, currently moored in a White Sea naval base in northern Russia for free to India, provided New Delhi paid for its repairs and modernisation.

However, lack of due diligence at the time of initial assessment of work led to whopping cost escalation that stalled its repairs and modernisation.

The aircraft carrier deal had become a major irritant in bilateral relations between India and Russia. By the end of 2007, when it became clear that Russia will not deliver the radically redesigned vessel by 2008 deadline, the relations dipped to an all-time low.

However, the two countries inked an additional agreement under which India agreed to pay a higher price for its refit.

idrw.org/?p=29501

*CAN'T WAIT*.

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## Levina

Then why did CAG criticise that Vikramaditya would be a second hand warship with a limited life span and that it'll be 60 percent costlier than a new one???
Just curious.....


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## kaykay

levina said:


> Then why did CAG criticise that Vikramaditya would be a second hand warship with a limited life span and that it'll be 60 percent costlier than a new one???
> Just curious.....


All BS. It will have a life span of a minimum 30 years and maximum 40 years. Not bad..right? While cost is almost same as Vikrant(Vikramaditya cost also includes radars, Electronic warfare system etc while not sure about Vikrant).
“INS Vikramaditya will serve Navy for 30 years” - The Hindu

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## Levina

kaykay said:


> All BS. It will have a life span of a minimum 30 years and maximum 40 years. Not bad..right? While cost is almost same as Vikrant(Vikramaditya cost also includes radars, Electronic warfare system etc while not sure about Vikrant).
> “INS Vikramaditya will serve Navy for 30 years” - The Hindu


Hmm...okayyy.
But it says that Vikramaditya doesnt have a close-in-weapon system (CIWS) or a missile defence.So how good/bad is the situation??
As far as i know this what the then Indian Navy Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta had to say when he defended the price for the warship saying: "I can't comment on the CAG. But you all are defence analysts, can you get me an aircraft carrier for less than USD two billion? If you can, I am going to sign a cheque right now".
And it is a $2.35billion dollar deal.So does the modifications justify its price???


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## kaykay

levina said:


> Hmm...okayyy.
> But it says that Vikramaditya doesnt have a close-in-weapon system (CIWS) or a missile defence.So how good/bad is the situation??
> As far as i know this what the then Indian Navy Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta had to say when he defended the price for the warship saying: "I can't comment on the CAG. But you all are defence analysts, can you get me an aircraft carrier for less than USD two billion? If you can, I am going to sign a cheque right now".
> And it is a $2.35billion dollar deal.So does the modifications justify its price???


2 things.
1. Ciws will be installed shortly(within 6 months) while Barak LR-SAM will take atleast 2 years to be installed.
2. Price escalations were definitely an issue with Vikramaditya but think about our indigenous IAC-1. as per initial reports Our own Vikrant will cost us $2.2 Billion(only carrier, no defence systems and fighters) while whole project(fighters, defence equipments, trails etc) will cost $5 Billions. So now a days no carrier will cost you below 2.5 billions.

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## Levina

Gotcha!!



kaykay said:


> So now a days no carrier will cost you below 2.5 billions.


But if price was not an issue,did India have better options is what i wanted to know.


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## Echo_419

levina said:


> Gotcha!!
> 
> 
> But if price was not an issue,did India have better options is what i wanted to know.



How about going for A Queen Elizabeth class carriers or one of the French carrier offered By DCNS


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## GURU DUTT

Echo_419 said:


> How about going for A Queen Elizabeth class carriers or one of the French carrier offered By DCNS


can you give more info on this please


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## Ganges Zephyr

No better option untill India starts making its own ACs


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## Dash

kaykay said:


> All BS. It will have a life span of a minimum 30 years and maximum 40 years. Not bad..right? While cost is almost same as Vikrant(Vikramaditya cost also includes radars, Electronic warfare system etc while not sure about Vikrant).
> “INS Vikramaditya will serve Navy for 30 years” - The Hindu



CAG based its economics based on life time cost, considering it(Vicky) has already completed 20+ years post her commission.

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## IND151

Echo_419 said:


> How about going for A Queen Elizabeth class carriers or *one of the French carrier offered By DCNS*



Kindly elaborate this part On Topic> Finally the beast is joining IN.

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## Dash

levina said:


> Gotcha!!
> 
> 
> But if price was not an issue,did India have better options is what i wanted to know.



India didnt have an option after their initial Air Defense Ship was not taking off due to stiff opposition from IAF and IN was hell bent upon realizing its dream of 3 carriers each for one command. Long story

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## Echo_419

IND151 said:


> Kindly elaborate this part On Topic> Finally the beast is joining IN.




French are offering Brazilians CATOBAR ACs 
We can also contact them to build one for us


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## faithfulguy

Echo_419 said:


> French are offering Brazilians CATOBAR ACs
> We can also contact them to build one for us



Why not allow US to station AC group in India. They will keep India safe.


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## Echo_419

faithfulguy said:


> Why not allow US to station AC group in India. They will keep India safe.



Bcauz we are not like Amazing Taiwan or Pakistan
Who sell their Sovereignty

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## GURU DUTT

faithfulguy said:


> Why not allow US to station AC group in India. They will keep India safe.


well taiwan can do that to start with 

as for india we can take care of owr self ..thanks but no thanks

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## Scorpion666

Y


levina said:


> Then why did CAG criticise that Vikramaditya would be a second hand warship with a limited life span and that it'll be 60 percent costlier than a new one???
> Just curious.....


You know how defense deals work, any ways it will be a sharp weapon in the Navy for a while.

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## thesolar65

levina said:


> Then why did CAG criticise that Vikramaditya would be a second hand warship with a limited life span and that it'll be 60 percent costlier than a new one???
> Just curious.....


Govt. Auditors? I also have some experience with them from my business. They are good people because they guard against over spending and acts as checks and balance against Govt.

But sometimes due to over enthusiasm and having no practical experience (they are totally theoretical) they do stupid things. Their calculations example is as follows *"I gave you five and you took five, so now you owe me ten".!!*

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## GURU DUTT

faithfulguy said:


> India is too prideful. It needs American assistance but it continue to refuse as it regarding itself as a superpower.


well whats wrong in it bhai 

we are pride ful but know the difference between bieng to egoidtic/ prideful and stupidity and thats why we had a non alighned policy but were and still are with good mutualli beneficial terms with all the power blocks in the modern world ...hope u got the point SIR

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## bloo

Russia Passes Refitted Aircraft Carrier to India After 5-Year Delay








SEVERODVINSK, November 16 (RIA Novosti) − Russia handed over to India its aircraft carrier renamed INS Vikramaditya on Saturday after a much-delayed refit and cost escalations that led to disagreements between Moscow and New Delhi.
The Indian Navy finally received its modified carrier – formerly known in Russian as Admiral Gorshkov − at the Sevmash shipyard in the northern town of Severodvinsk.

The ship was first scheduled to be delivered in 2008, but the deadline was repeatedly postponed over the period.

The official ceremony was attended Saturday by Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin and Indian Defense Minister AK Antony, who arrived in Russia on Friday for a four-day visit.

The commissioning papers were signed by deputy director of Russia’s arms exporter Rosoboronexport Igor Sevastyanov and the ship’s *Indian captain Suraj Berry.*

*The Vikramaditya will be escorted to India by a group of warships to secure its safe sail to its base in base in the Arabian Sea through a classified route* because it does not have any air defense systems on board, according to Indian website Zee News.

*The warship is expected to reach India by February 2014, Russian officials said earlier.*

Renamed after a legendary Indian king, the warship was originally as a Project 1143.4 or modified Kiev class aircraft carrier commissioned by the Soviet Navy in 1987. It was decommissioned in 1996 after cuts to the Russian Navy fleet.

The refurbishments of the vessel lurched from one crisis to another since the $947 million deal was signed with Russia in 2004 for its purchase and refit.

The delays pushed up the cost of its refurbishing to $2.3 billion, sparking acrimony between Russia and India over the contract.

Russia Passes Refitted Aircraft Carrier to India After 5-Year Delay | Defense | RIA Novosti

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## IBRIS

Congress better set up a nice show for the ship's arrival. I want to see Katrina's thumkay on the deck along with other hotties. Any Video available of handing over ceremony, Anyone..?

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## Capt.Popeye

levina said:


> Gotcha!!
> 
> 
> But if price was not an issue,did India have better options is what i wanted to know.


 
The short answer: NO
even more so considering the time that the deal for the Gorshkov was made.
Later the US offered the Kittyhawk; but she had little residual life left; the cost of any Life Extension Program prohibitive, cost of operation much more Huge; and then the US was not considered to be a reliable supporting Ally.

Now things are different on many counts, but then one cannot get a similar Carrier for USD 2.33 Billion.

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## GURU DUTT

IBRIS said:


> Congress better set up a nice show for the ship's arrival. I want to see Katrina's thumkay on the deck along with other hotties. Any Video available of handing over ceremony, Anyone..?



like this 








or this


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## IBRIS

GURU DUTT said:


> like this


The girl in the video is f**k*ng Ugly and low quality. Only top hotties like Katrina will do

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## GURU DUTT

IBRIS said:


> The girl in the video is f**k*ng Ugly and low quality. Only top hotties like Katrina will do


cover the face F*** the base  sirji

waise sirji pakistani larkion ko "sitapur walion" ki tarah khule balon ke saath head shake ki bari gandi aadat hai


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## janon



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## Manindra

kaykay said:


> 2 things.
> 1. Ciws will be installed shortly(within 6 months) while Barak LR-SAM will take atleast 2 years to be installed.
> 2. Price escalations were definitely an issue with Vikramaditya but think about our indigenous IAC-1. as per initial reports *Our own Vikrant will cost us $2.2 Billion(only carrier, no defence systems and fighters) while whole project(fighters, defence equipments, trails etc) will cost $5 Billions. So now a days no carrier will cost you below 2.5 billions.*



From where you get this stupid data ?


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## IBRIS

Panther squadron is yet to dominate Indian Ocean like its glory old days of 1971. Sri Lanka will behave differently once they feel the presence of INS Vikramaditya breathing over their necks. String Pearls shredder, indeed.


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## janon

IBRIS said:


> Panther squadron is yet to dominate Indian Ocean like its glory old days of 1971. Sri Lanka will behave differently once they feel the presence of INS Vikramaditya breathing over their necks. String Pearls shredder, indeed.


 
As if it was lack of an aircraft carrier that was hampering us from engaging Sri lanka.

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## bloo

GURU DUTT said:


> like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or this



HOLY CRAP ON A STICK.......what did I just see???????????????


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## IBRIS

janon said:


> As if it was lack of an aircraft carrier that was hampering us from engaging Sri lanka.


Given the low numbers of harriers and air refuelers for the navy it was difficult to check the incoming Chinese vessels. With more fighter jets on deck ready. Scrambling to inspect any lines of communication or smuggling will be dealt with swiftly.


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## GURU DUTT

bloo said:


> HOLY CRAP ON A STICK.......what did I just see???????????????


kya hua maza nahi aya kya.............


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## bloo

GURU DUTT said:


> kya hua maza nahi aya kya.............


Idk mujhe kya aaya......


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## GURU DUTT

bloo said:


> Idk mujhe kya aaya......


he he he he well i was just trying to lighten up the mood bhai ....remeber its a pakistani forum and we should show them what they like


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## Levina

Echo_419 said:


> How about going for A Queen Elizabeth class carriers or one of the French carrier offered By DCNS



QE would cost India US$3 billion.And its radar system isnt as good is what i found on searching.I am talking about the british QE class carrier which India had shown interest in.But Navy wasnt satisfied. 
How good are the french carriers??? 


Dash said:


> India didnt have an option after their initial Air Defense Ship was not taking off due to stiff opposition from IAF and IN was hell bent upon realizing its dream of 3 carriers each for one command. Long story



I am listening...go on tell me. 


Scorpion666 said:


> Y
> 
> You know how defense deals work, any ways it will be a sharp weapon in the Navy for a while.



I have a little idea.But you could elaborate on that.


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## Echo_419

levina said:


> QE would cost India US$3 billion.And its radar system isnt as good is what i found on searching.I am talking about the british QE class carrier which India had shown interest in.But Navy wasnt satisfied.
> How good are the french carriers???
> 
> I am listening...go on tell me.
> 
> I have a little idea.But you could elaborate on that.



Pata nahi neend Arahai hai 
Jab agle hafte AC ke shopping karong 
Friday Bazaar se toh 
Keemat Dekh ke Batadonga


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## Levina

thesolar65 said:


> Govt. Auditors? I also have some experience with them from my business. They are good people because they guard against over spending and acts as checks and balance against Govt.
> 
> But sometimes due to over enthusiasm and having no practical experience (they are totally theoretical) they do stupid things. Their calculations example is as follows *"I gave you five and you took five, so now you owe me ten".!!*


I wanted to send you one SOS...
Thanks.So you mean that was an over estimation??

 


Echo_419 said:


> Pata nahi neend Arahai hai
> Jab agle hafte AC ke shopping karong
> Friday Bazaar se toh
> Keemat Dekh ke Batadonga





Oh yeah buy one and then put it in your bath tub and play with it like a squeaky.
Ab friday bazar mein squeaky ACs ke squeaky hi toh milenge. 

 


Capt.Popeye said:


> The short answer: NO
> even more so considering the time that the deal for the Gorshkov was made.
> Later the US offered the Kittyhawk; but she had little residual life left; the cost of any Life Extension Program prohibitive, cost of operation much more Huge; and then the US was not considered to be a reliable supporting Ally.
> 
> Now things are different on many counts, but then one cannot get a similar Carrier for USD 2.33 Billion.



So is this the best beast in sea???


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## Capt.Popeye

levina said:


> So is this the best beast in sea???


 
'Best' is simply a relative expression. She can do what she is supposed to do in her part of the world.

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## Levina

Capt.Popeye said:


> 'Best' is simply a relative expression. She can do what she is supposed to do in her part of the world.



So we have something called owner's pride and neighbor's envy??

Frankly...what are the aircrafts its going to carry?? 
Are some aircrafts also included in the deal???Because i think i did read it somewhere.


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## hkdas

janon said:


> As if it was lack of an aircraft carrier that was hampering us from engaging Sri lanka.



to attack Sri Lanka india doesn't need AC. 


IBRIS said:


> Panther squadron is yet to dominate Indian Ocean like its glory old days of 1971. Sri Lanka will behave differently once they feel the presence of INS Vikramaditya breathing over their necks. String Pearls shredder, indeed.




in 1971 india had AC INS vikranth.


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## Star Wars

When will the Carrier reach India ?


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## Green Angel

Atleast,we get some sort of competetion from our enemy now,..............Hurray Question is How would you defend "AIRCRAFT CARRIER FROM CARRIER KILLER MISSILE" ?


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## kaykay

Manindra said:


> From where you get this stupid data ?


stupid data??? Atleast google before call it stupid.
India's First Indigenous Carrier Faces Delays, Cost Growth | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## Jai_Hind

Marking a new high in India-Russia strategic cooperation, the Defence Minister Shri AK Antony today commissioned the completely refurbished 44,500 tonne carrier Admiral Gorshkov into the Indian Navy as INS Vikramaditya at an impressive ceremony at sub zero temperature in the wind- swept Sevmash Shipyard in the beautiful city of Severodvinsk in Russia. Snow flakes kept falling as the ceremony was held.

Speaking at the event, Shri Antony said INS Vikramaditya would significantly enhance the reach and capability of the Indian Navy. He said, the country has a rich maritime history and the Indian Ocean has guided our fate over the centuries. “India’s economic development is dependent on the seas and safeguarding the nation’s maritime interests is central to our national policy. Aircraft carriers have been part of the Indian Navy’s force structure since our independence and have effectively served the country over the past five decades or so. The induction of
‘Vikramaditya’ with its integral MiG29K fighters and Kamov-31 helicopters, not only reinforces this central policy, but also adds a new dimension to our Navy’s operational capabilities. The meaning of ‘Vikramaditya’, which literally translates into “Strong as the Sun” is complemented by the Ship’s motto –“Strike Far, Strike Sure”,he said.

Reflecting the mood at the ceremony, Shri Antony said, ‘the event realizes the vision of capability-based transformation of the Indian Navy that was conceived more than a decade ago’. Calling it a Red Letter Day in the history of India- Russia cooperation, Shri Antony said this relationship remains a matter of the highest
priority for both nations for our mutual benefit and as a factor of global peace and stability.

“The successful culmination of Project 11430 truly symbolizes the time-tested Special and Privileged Strategic Partnership between our two great nations. The Project has propelled the strategic partnership between our nations to a new level. The relationship between our two countries based on mutual trust and belief has withstood the test of time and the result is for the entire world to see in the form of ‘Vikramaditya’. As the ship sails into its home waters in the Indian Ocean Region, INS ‘Vikramaditya’ will be a befitting tribute to our long- standing relationship”, he said.

Describing the Project 11430 as a unique one, Shri Antony said, it was a challenging task for both the Russian and the Indian sides and congratulated the entire team for converting the ‘Dream Project’ into a reality. “The transformation of INS ‘Vikramaditya’ is an engineering marvel, which has tested the professionalism, capability and perseverance of the Indian Navy and the Russian industry, especially the Sevmash Shipyard”, he said and expressed confidence that all possible support would be extended by Russia to ensure that the ship serves India effectively and
efficiently for the duration of its expected operational life cycle.

Speaking on the occasion, the Chief of Naval Staff Admiral DK Joshi said the INS Vikramaditya will bridge the time-gap that may come up between the INS Viraat and the Indigenously built aircraft carrier Vikrant.It will also help achieving our medium term goal of operating two aircraft carriers. A large number of dignitaries including the Deputy Prime Minister of Russia Mr Dmitry Rogozin and Defence Minister Mr Shoigu, the Chief of Naval Staff Admiral DK Joshi, the Indian Ambassador to Russia Shri Ajay Malhotra, the Defence Secretary Shri RK Mathur, the DG
Acquisition Shri SB Agnihotri were present on the occasion.

Mr Rogozin said INS Vikramaditya symbolises the close friendship between India and Russia and expressed confidence that it will grow in the coming years.














































Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: INS Vikramaditya commissioned

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## UKBengali

I have read that the aircraft carrier will normally carry 20 Mig-29K.

In a war situation would be possible to increase this number to 30 to give a far more potent air-group capability?

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## Manindra

kaykay said:


> stupid data??? Atleast google before call it stupid.
> India's First Indigenous Carrier Faces Delays, Cost Growth | Defense News | defensenews.com



Shoddy journalism.
Journalist source would be RAW
If you add 1 billion in above cost then you will get Nimitz class Super Carrier.
IAC-1 is planned cost is $500 million dollar which grew to near about $850 million dollar then how can aircrafts, helicopters, SAM, CIWS, Radar would cost more than $4 billion dollar.


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## jhungary

Capt.Popeye said:


> The short answer: NO
> even more so considering the time that the deal for the Gorshkov was made.
> Later the US offered the Kittyhawk; but she had little residual life left; the cost of any Life Extension Program prohibitive, cost of operation much more Huge; and then the US was not considered to be a reliable supporting Ally.
> 
> Now things are different on many counts, but then one cannot get a similar Carrier for USD 2.33 Billion.


 
actually the deal regarding Kitty Hawk is a rumor, US never official offer Kitty Hawk to India nor would they consider. There are still too many Kitty Hawk technology in use today and US would unlikely sold or transfer Kitty Hawk so they can be studied by the Russian Eventually.....

Even if SecNav did offer, they more than likely just a spike to Russia and Congress would not pass the transfer anyway.

Many people believe the Kitty Hawk Rumor is generated so India could squeeze a better deal with the Russian Carrier. No intention on either side were ever consider the offer.

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## Storm Force

Nimitz class Carriers in todays market place $10 -12 billion with out the 75 fighters & helos & awacs which would cost $5 billion more

Vikramidiyta was a good move and is about ALL INDIA needs to dominate the indian seas and areas of influence


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## Capt.Popeye

levina said:


> So we have something called owner's pride and neighbor's envy??
> 
> Frankly...what are the aircrafts its going to carry??
> Are some aircrafts also included in the deal???Because i think i did read it somewhere.


 
Yes; the aircraft for the ship have been acquired in a different but related deal-- 20 MiG-29Ks if I'm not mistaken apart from Ka-31s and Ka-28s for AEW and ASW. 


jhungary said:


> actually the deal regarding Kitty Hawk is a rumor, US never official offer Kitty Hawk to India nor would they consider. There are still too many Kitty Hawk technology in use today and US would unlikely sold or transfer Kitty Hawk so they can be studied by the Russian Eventually.....
> 
> Even if SecNav did offer, they more than likely just a spike to Russia and Congress would not pass the transfer anyway.
> 
> Many people believe the Kitty Hawk Rumor is generated so India could squeeze a better deal with the Russian Carrier. No intention on either side were ever consider the offer.


 
No, it was not a rumor. It was more than that. But it was an unaffordable option for the IN; which I've explained. And that was common knowledge.

Your own post contains self-contradictions; first in the caveat that that you attribute to SecNav and then in the assertion that you make that the offer was made to help India to "squeeze the Russian Carrier". I stand by my statement, and I do know something about the background to it.

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## Beast

UKBengali said:


> I have read that the aircraft carrier will normally carry 20 Mig-29K.
> 
> In a war situation would be possible to increase this number to 30 to give a far more potent air-group capability?



That will depend on carrier size perhap some Indian friends can shed some info.


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## [Bregs]

Severodvinsk, Sat Nov 16 2013, 08:58 hrs

With Russia ready to hand over *INS Vikramaditya* to India on Saturday, the aircraft carrier has put its troubled past behind. Besides successfully conducting maneuverability and speed trials, it also performed its the main function — *aircraft operations* — quite well. As many as 88 glitch-free landings of the MiG 29 K fighter have taken place on the ship, three with Indian officers on board.
Unfortunately, due to a combination of planning and developmental delays, the aircraft carrier will, ironically, have little defence against *air attacks*. Unlike all other carriers in the world, Vikramaditya will be the only ship of its class to not have air defence systems — either missiles or close in weapons.

The only protection it will have against incoming aircraft till 2017 (as per estimates) will be electronic systems. Hence, one of the more interesting demonstrations conducted this year was of the*ASOR Russian electronic warfare system* fitted on the carrier. Those who participated said the ship's sensors picked up incoming aircraft at a distance of 350 km and, in some cases, even 400 km.

During trials, the ship's electronic warfare systems defeated all incoming aircraft by blinding them with directed energy. "Not a single aircraft managed to detect the ship when systems were in use. The only way they could find the ship was when it got into visible range," said Igor Leonav, Chief Commissioner of Sevmash.

Several aircraft, including Su 33 fighters, MiG 29 Ks, IL 38s and Kamov choppers, were used to test the electronic warfare systems. But this is the only defence against air attacks, other than the last stage Pk2m chaff/flare launchers used as decoys when incoming missiles home in.

Both the Israeli LR SAM system and the Indian made close in weapon system are delayed and will be fitted after a few years. The LR SAM project was to be operational in 2012, but even the first firing of the missile has not taken place so far. As per plans, the Indian Navy wanted to place both these systems after the carrier was delivered.

"It was a decision of the Indian Navy not to install the systems as of now. We offered the carrier with the Kashtan systems and a year ago, we had a discussion on installing the AK 630 close in weapon system. But a decision on this has not been taken by the Indian side yet," Sergey Vlasov, Director General of the Nevskoe Design Bureau, the chief designer of the Vikramaditya, said.

The Navy is counting on the fact that the carrier will function in a group where other frigates and destroyers will carry adequate air defence systems to defeat attacks.

*Sindhurakshak: Experts say mishap cause can still be found*

The Indian Navy has been facing criticism for failing to get the ill-fated Sindhurakshak submarine out of the water even three months after it blew up while docked in Mumbai but Russian submarine experts say that even after spending so much time underwater, the cause of the accident can be ascertained through careful forensic examination as well as studying the sequence of events leading to the multiple blasts.

Terming the going down of the submarine as a "personal loss", experts at the Zvezdochka shipyard that upgraded the vessel months here before the incident say that all possible help will be rendered to examine the matter if the Indian Navy sends a formal request to join the investigation.

"Some of the people who died in accident were in Russia for the process of refit. We knew them very well and it is a big personal loss for us as well. The most important thing is that such tragedies do not happen again. The shipbuilders as well as those who operate it must understand what has happened and the causes that led to it for safe operations in the future," said Alexey S Gavzov, head of contract preparation and maintenance department of the shipyard said.

While the Indian submarine went down months after a long upgrade in Severodvinsk, the Indian side had not blamed the shipyard for the loss and in a show of confidence, is set to place an order for a second life upgrade for two more Kilo class submarines at the Zvezdochka shipyard shortly. This upgrade will extend the life of two older Kilo class submarines by another ten year


INS Vikramaditya has might but little protection against air attacks - Indian Express

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## jhungary

Capt.Popeye said:


> Yes; the aircraft for the ship have been acquired in a different but related deal-- 20 MiG-29Ks if I'm not mistaken apart from Ka-31s and Ka-28s for AEW and ASW.
> 
> No' it was not a rumor. It was more than that. But it was an unaffordable option for the IN; which I've explained. And that was common knowledge.


 
I don't know how people think about this deal in India, but in America, it is a Rumor......

Why India Talked Up a U.S. Carrier Deal - Businessweek

Again, as i said, unless India is looking for an empty hull, there are still tons of technology used in Kitty Hawk used in the Nimitz Class. So, for us, it is a rumor. Because we know for sure they will not transfer Kitty Hawk to even Japan or Israel or the UK, they will not transfer it to an intermediate country like India


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## Star Wars

UKBengali said:


> I have read that the aircraft carrier will normally carry 20 Mig-29K.
> 
> In a war situation would be possible to increase this number to 30 to give a far more potent air-group capability?


From what i hear it is 20 Migs and 14 Helicopters


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## nair

Star Wars said:


> From what i hear it is 20 Migs and 14 Helicopters



24 to be precise with 10 helicopters

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## Capt.Popeye

jhungary said:


> I don't know how people think about this deal in India, but in America, it is a Rumor......
> 
> Why India Talked Up a U.S. Carrier Deal - Businessweek
> 
> Again, as i said, unless India is looking for an empty hull, there are still tons of technology used in Kitty Hawk used in the Nimitz Class. So, for us, it is a rumor. Because we know for sure they will not transfer Kitty Hawk to even Japan or Israel or the UK, they will not transfer it to an intermediate country like India


 
I am not referring to news reports at all; I am referring to diplomatic discussions.


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## Jai_Hind

Star Wars said:


> From what i hear it is 20 Migs and 14 Helicopters


 

or 24 migs with 10 helis combining dhruvs and ka 28s, 31s


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## Capt.Popeye

What is the significance and meaning of a Carrier Battle Group?

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## [Bregs]

Capt.Popeye said:


> What is the significance and meaning of a Carrier Battle Group?




But i suppose this ship will have its own air defense system "barak" ?


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## Beast

Capt.Popeye said:


> What is the significance and meaning of a Carrier Battle Group?



Carrier do not operate alone.


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## jhungary

Capt.Popeye said:


> I am not referring to news reports at all; I am referring to diplomatic discussions.


 
it said on the news article, that the spoke person of the Navy denial a deal or offer ever exist



> The Navy has no plans of transferring the Kitty Hawk to India," said Lt. Col. Clay Doss, a U.S. Navy spokesperson in Washington


 
Again, i don't know how or what Indian Think, american think this deal was a hoax to begin with.

Just look why do we transfer Kitty Hawk for free to India?? If there are any agenda behind this deal, then it was to spike Russia. Transferring the Kitty Hawk did all the good stuff for India but did not do any good on the US .

Plus as i said, numerous classified tech is still in use Today in Nimitz Class. making it to transfer to an official Russia Allied unlikely. Kitty Hawk is today still in Reserve Service with US Navy, so if a deal was actually in talk back in 2008, would it be stupid to do so to talk about that then? Even if the deal did exist, and India say yes, there are no way India will get Kitty Hawk anywhere Prior to 2015, when the mandated reserve status have expired..

It will be more believable if a deal has surface this year or next when the Kitty Hawk got stuck from Naval register in 2015.

National Defense Reserve Fleet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, this is how American feel about the deal, as far as we concern, the deal was a hoax. There are more requirment and regulation we know and you don't know......


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## Capt.Popeye

[Bregs] said:


> But i suppose this ship will have its own air defense system "barak" ?


 
It will; just as it will have aircraft, and it will have a screen of Ships.
All that go on to make a Carrier Battle Group.

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## akand bharat

[Bregs] said:


> But i suppose this ship will have its own air defense system "barak" ?


Yes "Barak 8" indo-israel But it will take time to be operational And will be fit in around 2017 till then it will Have to depend on *ASOR Russian electronic warfare system* fitted on the carrier. Those who participated said the ship's sensors picked up incoming aircraft at a distance of 350 km and, in some cases, even 400 km.Hope that it will be equiped with Barak-8 as soon Possible

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## hkdas

Capt.Popeye said:


> What is the significance and meaning of a Carrier Battle Group?


Carrier battle group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Levina

Capt.Popeye said:


> Yes; the aircraft for the ship have been acquired in a different but related deal-- 20 MiG-29Ks if I'm not mistaken apart from Ka-31s and Ka-28s for AEW and ASW.


Hmmm so is it like getting a 250ml bottle free when buying a 500ml cola bottle??
Just kidding...

I wanted to know about this deal because earlier @kaykay's statement had confused me a bit



kaykay said:


> 2. Price escalations were definitely an issue with Vikramaditya but think about our indigenous IAC-1. as per initial reports Our own Vikrant will cost us $2.2 Billion(*only carrier, no defence systems and fighters*) while whole project(fighters, defence equipments, trails etc) will cost $5 Billions. So now a days no carrier will cost you below 2.5 billions.



I am sure you both made contradicting statements,so i just confirmed it.


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## [Bregs]

akand bharat said:


> Yes "Barak 8" indo-israel But it will take time to be operational And will be fit in around 2017 till then it will Have to depend on *ASOR Russian electronic warfare system* fitted on the carrier. Those who participated said the ship's sensors picked up incoming aircraft at a distance of 350 km and, in some cases, even 400 km.Hope that it will be equiped with Barak-8 as soon Possible




In trials *ASOR Russian electronic warfare system, *has worked exceedingly well


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## hkdas

[Bregs] said:


> In trials *ASOR Russian electronic warfare system, *has worked exceedingly well



any details about *ASOR Russian electronic warfare system???*


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## Capt.Popeye

jhungary said:


> it said on the news article, that the spoke person of the Navy denial a deal or offer ever exist
> 
> 
> 
> Again, i don't know how or what Indian Think, american think this deal was a hoax to begin with.
> 
> Just look why do we transfer Kitty Hawk for free to India?? If there are any agenda behind this deal, then it was to spike Russia. Transferring the Kitty Hawk did all the good stuff for India but did not do any good on the US .
> 
> Plus as i said, numerous classified tech is still in use Today in Nimitz Class. making it to transfer to an official Russia Allied unlikely. Kitty Hawk is today still in Reserve Service with US Navy, so if a deal was actually in talk back in 2008, would it be stupid to do so to talk about that then? Even if the deal did exist, and India say yes, there are no way India will get Kitty Hawk anywhere Prior to 2015, when the mandated reserve status have expired..
> 
> It will be more believable if a deal has surface this year or next when the Kitty Hawk got stuck from Naval register in 2015.
> 
> National Defense Reserve Fleet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Again, this is how American feel about the deal, as far as we concern, the deal was a hoax. There are more requirment and regulation we know and you don't know......


 

You can think whatever you want to! The facts of the matter are different. And you just gave away the fallacy of your argument(s) in the underlined part of you post.
The discussions DID NOT INVOLVE ANY FREE TRANSFER; THE SHIP WAS 'ON SALE' BASIS; in other simpler words- to be paid for.
The discussions did not proceed far; because the IN itself felt that the ship was not worth acquiring, it was unaffordable for all the reasons that I have explained earlier. Take a look at that.

You NEED to understand that USA has not OFFERED any Military Eqpt. for FREE to India, nor has India SOUGHT anything for FREE.
Every thing: the C-130Js, the C-17s, the P-8Is, the Apaches, Chinooks, the M-777 Howitzers are for SALE and India has either already or is proposing to PURCHASE them.
India is not looking for _Free Gifts_ from the USA now; just as it did not get any earlier.
Maybe that will be understandable to you?


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## Capt.Popeye

hkdas said:


> Carrier battle group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
HeHeHeh; I know that. That was just a rhetorical question.....

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## Jai_Hind

Capt.Popeye said:


> What is the significance and meaning of a Carrier Battle Group?




Can you explain why exactly does the ACC needs firepower if it always moves in CBG.... I mean all the other ships in the CBG performs this one task of defending the ACC....


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## MKI 30

Capt.Popeye said:


> HeHeHeh; I know that. That was just a rhetorical question.....



LOL. Please ask him if he was being sarcastic? I have been reading your posts for some time now and i respect the knowledge you have especially about Naval Warfare.

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## Capt.Popeye

Jai_Hind said:


> Can you explain why exactly does the ACC needs firepower if it always moves in CBG.... I mean all the other ships in the CBG performs this one task of defending the ACC....


 
The Carrier needs only CIWS. The rest of the work will either get done by its aircraft and/or its screening ships.


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## newdelhinsa

Why news papers allow authors to publish such articles ? Just for sake of filling the empty space ?

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## Capt.Popeye

MKI 30 said:


> LOL. Please ask him if he was being sarcastic? I have been reading your posts for some time now and i respect the knowledge you have especially about Naval Warfare.


 
Thanks for the sentiment. I do not know everything, I know a few things. Though I try to ensure that they are things that matter. 


newdelhinsa said:


> Why news papers allow authors to publish such articles ? Just for sake of filling the empty space ?


 
Anybody and everybody can become a Defence Specialist. Have'nt you seen that here, for instance?

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## Jai_Hind

Capt.Popeye said:


> The Carrier needs only CIWS. The rest of the work will either get done by its aircraft and/or its screening ships.




So isnt Kashtan CIWS enough..... why exectly does it neet Barracks


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## jhungary

Capt.Popeye said:


> You can think whatever you want to! The facts of the matter are different. And you just gave away the fallacy of your argument(s) in the underlined part of you post.
> The discussions DID NOT INVOLVE ANY FREE TRANSFER; THE SHIP WAS 'ON SALE' BASIS; in other simpler words- to be paid for.
> The discussions did not proceed far; because the IN itself felt that the ship was not worth acquiring, it was unaffordable for all the reasons that I have explained earlier. Take a look at that.
> 
> You NEED to understand that USA has not OFFERED any Military Eqpt. for FREE to India, nor has India SOUGHT anything for FREE.
> Every thing: the C-130Js, the C-17s, the P-8Is, the Apaches, Chinooks, the M-777 Howitzers are for SALE and India has either already or is proposing to PURCHASE them.
> India is not looking for _Free Gifts_ from the USA now; just as it did not get any earlier.
> Maybe that will be understandable to you?


 
lol dude, what you don't know is, Kitty Hawk is going to be mothballed until 2015, everyones know that, so if a talk happened on 2008 saying US will transfer Kitty Hawk after it retired (Decommission not Retire) of service will be transfer to India Navy, that does not make sense. As ship can be extent their length of service from mothballing by congress. Iowa is an example.

As far as i can make out is, India believe the deal is Free Kitty Hawk with 65 fighter bought, so i don't see what's wrong with the "Free Deal" comment

And what i said is true, no deal (Free or not free) were officially considered or offered. Unless you can provide something that countr what the Navy Spokeperson said publicly in 2008, i see no point in your argument.

As i said, this is what we believe, *we believe India Manufacture the deal so they can get a better price offer from Russia, which make more sense than to talk about a transfer of a ship 7 years down the road.*


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## kaykay

Manindra said:


> Shoddy journalism.
> Journalist source would be RAW
> If you add 1 billion in above cost then you will get Nimitz class Super Carrier.
> IAC-1 is planned cost is $500 million dollar which grew to near about $850 million dollar then how can aircrafts, helicopters, SAM, CIWS, Radar would cost more than $4 billion dollar.


Not really dude. It has indeed escalated that much. See this report from 2012. It also says same thing that earlier in 2003 it was planned for only 3000 crores or so but now only carrier(without air component) will cost between 14000-18000 crore.
Indian aircraft carrier: More costly, already delayed | NDTV.com
And as far as I know Nimitz class now cost around $13 Billion.

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## [Bregs]

newdelhinsa said:


> Why news papers allow authors to publish such articles ? Just for sake of filling the empty space ?




But this news also mentions that INS Vikarmaditya is the only AC in the world without its own Air defence


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## kaykay

levina said:


> Hmmm so is it like getting a 250ml bottle free when buying a 500ml cola bottle??
> Just kidding...
> 
> I wanted to know about this deal because earlier @kaykay's statement had confused me a bit
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure you both made contradicting statements,so i just confirmed it.


Well what I said was based on a report I have posted in previous page. Without air component, Vikrant will cost around $2.2 billions or even more.
PS: even for vikramaditya, India has to buy 16 Mig-29Ks for around $650 million. So Ins Vikramaditya's total cost will go around $3 billion while Vikrant will even more costly if you consider total cost.

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## Capt.Popeye

jhungary said:


> lol dude, what you don't know is, Kitty Hawk is going to be mothballed until 2015, everyones know that, so if a talk happened on 2008 saying US will transfer Kitty Hawk after it retired (Decommission not Retire) of service will be transfer to India Navy, that does not make sense. As ship can be extent their length of service from mothballing by congress. Iowa is an example.
> 
> As far as i can make out is, India believe the deal is Free Kitty Hawk with 65 fighter bought, so i don't see what's wrong with the "Free Deal" comment
> 
> And what i said is true, no deal (Free or not free) were officially considered or offered. Unless you can provide something that countr what the Navy Spokeperson said publicly in 2008, i see no point in your argument.
> 
> As i said, this is what we believe, *we believe India Manufacture the deal so they can get a better price offer from Russia, which make more sense than to talk about a transfer of a ship 7 years down the road.*


 
Well I cant convince to change your imagination now, can I !
The talk about Kitty Hawk began and ended years ago. Do you understand what I'm saying?
The talk ended as talk not today, not tomorrow, not yesterday; but some years ago. That chapter got closed before it even got written.

As far as what you have written in the underlined part; wake up to the fact that it is not and was not true. Did you get that also?
Hence to answer your question with another question: *What on earth can you (or anyone else)find right with something that is BS?*
Now you have pitched enough stories and self-contradictory statements already that you need not serve up any more.

About :*we believe India Manufacture the deal so they can get a better price offer from Russia, which make more sense than to talk about a transfer of a ship 7 years down the road*.
Maybe you believe in Djinns also?

I have grown out of the age to listen in on "bed-time stories".
_So avast there._


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## jhungary

Capt.Popeye said:


> Well I cant convince to change your imagination now, can I !
> The talk about Kitty Hawk began and ended years ago. Do you understand what I'm saying?
> The talk ended as talk not today, not tomorrow, not yesterday; but some years ago. That chapter got closed before it even got written.
> 
> As far as what you have written in the underlined part; wake up to the fact that it is not and was not true. Did you get that also?
> Hence to answer your question with another question: *What on earth can you (or anyone else)find right with something that is BS?*
> Now you have pitched enough stories and self-contradictory statements already that you need not serve up any more.
> 
> About :*we believe India Manufacture the deal so they can get a better price offer from Russia, which make more sense than to talk about a transfer of a ship 7 years down the road*.
> Maybe you believe in Djinns also?
> 
> I have grown out of the age to listen in on "bed-time stories".
> _So avast there._


 
Dude, i have no idea what you were saying......

Let set aside if the deal is free for any reason

Indeed the deal (If exist) ended in 2008, but do you realise even the deal did exist, US Navy require the Kitty Hawk to stay in US Navy until 2015.

Answer me this then, why would India in talk with US for a ship *IN 2008* for a ship that can only be available in 2015? Which is 7 years later? The deal does not make sense, even with Russian Backballing the India Offer, the Russian ship delievered in 2013. 2 years before kitty hawk would even remotely be ready (Remember after mothballing you need to take out sensitive equipment, that would take another years or so.)

Now answer me this, why India would interest to talk with US about a ship in 2008 that have a delievery date *BEYOND 2016??*

All i can see from you is you blowing hot air, you have no reference that that dealwere even offered by the US Navy, oh yeah, you heard that from someone else, then that person heard that from someone else too.

I quote the news report in 2008, a NAVY SPOKE PERSON comes out in the pent and *OFFICIALLY SAYING THERE ARE NO INTENTION TO TRANSFER THE KITTY HAWK TO INDIA*.

Yet i still yet to see one supporting evidence from you and from the internet suggest that a deal is offered.

Seems to me the deal is on your imagination, not mine.

I repeat my statement. Unless i see some solid evidence that US offer Kitty Hawk to India, i would say general American Believe the Kitty Hawk Offer were a hoax, intent to lowball the Russian offer. I am not interested in hearing another word from you *IF YOU CANNOT PROVIDE SOURCE.*

*I repeat, India manufacture the deal so they can lowball the Russian offer in 2008, without any evidence suggest otherwise, this is the general belief american believe, this is the direction io believe*


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## MohitV

well an already used medium range carrier(45000 tons) costed us around 2.35 billion.....imagine how much would a supercarrier cost?? i guess for future ....indigenous AC is the only good option


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## Capt.Popeye

jhungary said:


> Dude, i have no idea what you were saying......
> 
> Let set aside if the deal is free for any reason
> 
> Indeed the deal (If exist) ended in 2008, but do you realise even the deal did exist, US Navy require the Kitty Hawk to stay in US Navy until 2015.
> 
> Answer me this then, why would India in talk with US for a ship *IN 2008* for a ship that can only be available in 2015? Which is 7 years later? The deal does not make sense, even with Russian Backballing the India Offer, the Russian ship delievered in 2013. 2 years before kitty hawk would even remotely be ready (Remember after mothballing you need to take out sensitive equipment, that would take another years or so.)
> 
> Now answer me this, why India would interest to talk with US about a ship in 2008 that have a delievery date *BEYOND 2016??*
> 
> All i can see from you is you blowing hot air, you have no reference that that dealwere even offered by the US Navy, oh yeah, you heard that from someone else, then that person heard that from someone else too.
> 
> I quote the news report in 2008, a NAVY SPOKE PERSON comes out in the pent and *OFFICIALLY SAYING THERE ARE NO INTENTION TO TRANSFER THE KITTY HAWK TO INDIA*.
> 
> Yet i still yet to see one supporting evidence from you and from the internet suggest that a deal is offered.
> 
> Seems to me the deal is on your imagination, not mine.
> 
> I repeat my statement. Unless i see some solid evidence that US offer Kitty Hawk to India, i would say general American Believe the Kitty Hawk Offer were a hoax, intent to lowball the Russian offer. I am not interested in hearing another word from you *IF YOU CANNOT PROVIDE SOURCE.*
> 
> *I repeat, India manufacture the deal so they can lowball the Russian offer in 2008, without any evidence suggest otherwise, this is the general belief american believe, this is the direction io believe*


 
Listen up now: I have spent enough time (and bandwidth) explaining the lack of facts and infirmities in the arguments that you dished out.

Since BS is unworthy of further meaningful discourse.
_Avast there._


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## Abingdonboy

MohitV said:


> well an already used medium range carrier(45000 tons) costed us around 2.35 billion.....imagine how much would a supercarrier cost?? i guess for future ....indigenous AC is the only good option


They cost around $4-5 for the USN AFAIK. The Viky was never intended to cost $2.35 though, but then it seems both sides underestimated the amount of work involved. The IAC-1 should cost around $2BN USD for 40-42,000 ton ACC but a MUCH more modern one at that. From there the IAC-2 (of it is set to be 65,000+ tons really) should be quite a bit more especially if the IN is intending to put CATs on it. However the lessons learnt from IAC-1 should translate into some cost savings for all future IN ACCs.


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## Abingdonboy

@Dillinger @Capt.Popeye just heard from a friend of mine the Viky will be sailing with 5 IN escorts/support vessels on its return journey to India later this year....


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## Dillinger

Abingdonboy said:


> @Dillinger @Capt.Popeye just heard from a friend of mine the Viky will be sailing with 5 IN escorts/support vessels on its return journey to India later this year....



Dunno about the exact number but its operational escorts themselves will start getting commissioned from early next year so whichever ships get the honor at the moment- they will not likely ever provide escort to said carrier in the future.


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## Abingdonboy

Dillinger said:


> Dunno about the exact number but its operational escorts themselves will start getting commissioned from early next year so whichever ships get the honor at the moment- they will not likely ever provide escort to said carrier in the future.


Do you mean decommissioned? And I don't know about the exact composition of the escort group as this is being kept hush-hush for now but I know it will comprise 1 (possible 2) Talwar class frigates and a Deepak class replenishment ship both new(ish) assets that may very well see themselves escorting the Viky again in the future.


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## Dillinger

Abingdonboy said:


> Do you mean decommissioned? And I don't know about the exact composition of the escort group as this is being kept hush-hush for now but I know it will comprise 1 (possible 2) Talwar class frigates and a Deepak class replenishment ship both new(ish) assets that may very well see themselves escorting the Viky again in the future.



I was referring to the P-15A's commissioning (lead ship) early next year- as such the principal escort elements will be replaced (not decommissioned) by the P-15A.

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## danger007

jhungary said:


> Dude, i have no idea what you were saying......
> 
> Let set aside if the deal is free for any reason
> 
> Indeed the deal (If exist) ended in 2008, but do you realise even the deal did exist, US Navy require the Kitty Hawk to stay in US Navy until 2015.
> 
> Answer me this then, why would India in talk with US for a ship *IN 2008* for a ship that can only be available in 2015? Which is 7 years later? The deal does not make sense, even with Russian Backballing the India Offer, the Russian ship delievered in 2013. 2 years before kitty hawk would even remotely be ready (Remember after mothballing you need to take out sensitive equipment, that would take another years or so.)
> 
> Now answer me this, why India would interest to talk with US about a ship in 2008 that have a delievery date *BEYOND 2016??*
> 
> All i can see from you is you blowing hot air, you have no reference that that dealwere even offered by the US Navy, oh yeah, you heard that from someone else, then that person heard that from someone else too.
> 
> I quote the news report in 2008, a NAVY SPOKE PERSON comes out in the pent and *OFFICIALLY SAYING THERE ARE NO INTENTION TO TRANSFER THE KITTY HAWK TO INDIA*.
> 
> Yet i still yet to see one supporting evidence from you and from the internet suggest that a deal is offered.
> 
> Seems to me the deal is on your imagination, not mine.
> 
> I repeat my statement. Unless i see some solid evidence that US offer Kitty Hawk to India, i would say general American Believe the Kitty Hawk Offer were a hoax, intent to lowball the Russian offer. I am not interested in hearing another word from you *IF YOU CANNOT PROVIDE SOURCE.*
> 
> *I repeat, India manufacture the deal so they can lowball the Russian offer in 2008, without any evidence suggest otherwise, this is the general belief american believe, this is the direction io believe*




Thread is about INS Vikky.... not Kitty... chill friends...


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## Abingdonboy

Dillinger said:


> I was referring to the P-15A's commissioning (lead ship) early next year- as such the principal escort elements will be replaced (not decommissioned) by the P-15A.


Yes very true.


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## Sergi

jhungary said:


> Dude, i have no idea what you were saying......
> 
> Let set aside if the deal is free for any reason
> 
> Indeed the deal (If exist) ended in 2008, but do you realise even the deal did exist, US Navy require the Kitty Hawk to stay in US Navy until 2015.
> 
> Answer me this then, why would India in talk with US for a ship *IN 2008* for a ship that can only be available in 2015? Which is 7 years later? The deal does not make sense, even with Russian Backballing the India Offer, the Russian ship delievered in 2013. 2 years before kitty hawk would even remotely be ready (Remember after mothballing you need to take out sensitive equipment, that would take another years or so.)
> 
> Now answer me this, why India would interest to talk with US about a ship in 2008 that have a delievery date *BEYOND 2016??*
> 
> All i can see from you is you blowing hot air, you have no reference that that dealwere even offered by the US Navy, oh yeah, you heard that from someone else, then that person heard that from someone else too.
> 
> I quote the news report in 2008, a NAVY SPOKE PERSON comes out in the pent and *OFFICIALLY SAYING THERE ARE NO INTENTION TO TRANSFER THE KITTY HAWK TO INDIA*.
> 
> Yet i still yet to see one supporting evidence from you and from the internet suggest that a deal is offered.
> 
> Seems to me the deal is on your imagination, not mine.
> 
> I repeat my statement. Unless i see some solid evidence that US offer Kitty Hawk to India, i would say general American Believe the Kitty Hawk Offer were a hoax, intent to lowball the Russian offer. I am not interested in hearing another word from you *IF YOU CANNOT PROVIDE SOURCE.*
> 
> *I repeat, India manufacture the deal so they can lowball the Russian offer in 2008, without any evidence suggest otherwise, this is the general belief american believe, this is the direction io believe*


If I may answer.....

Dude everything is NOT on paper always. eg India doesn't have S-300 officially , Israel isn't a nuclear state and so on


Many things are kept under carpet but some got leaked and always denied by all parties.
As @Capt.Popeye said Yes Kitty hawk was offereed by USA with air elements. That doent mean it was going to be transffered with the Nimitz class techs. And would have strings attached too. Some also say that it was offered so that F-18 could get a boost in MMRCA.

It was rejected by IN
- couldnt afford the total package.
- IN was/is not happy with the strings.
- TOT would have been zero so have to have depend on US for everything.
- cost of operating a N-Carrier is more than conventional one 

If you look back to 2008 its the same period when Bush became pro-India and was the same time when Nuclear deal was being dissucssed. India is only country to have that ( for many reasons ) with USA backing it up.

How hard is it for US to decommission and water down a carrier to offer it to India ???
And Russia getting hands on US techs is total BS then why in world US sell india C-17/C-130/Apache/P-8Is ??? Are they outdated ???

2008 was the time when US-Pak relations were on the verge rupture. So all things were possible and it would have been worth billions of dollar deal. So it was total gain for US .... Even more than India.

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## GR!FF!N

hey guys,I'm asking an unusual question.what do you think will be India's best deployment CBG policy against a country having a good air force and Navy(not too powerful,but decent)??should we deploy them(I'm assuming 2 ACs are taking part) into different CBG having each 1 AC,2 Destroyer,2 Frigates,couple of ASW Corvettes and Mine Sweepers with 2 Submarines each or it is best to have them join to form a larger CBG having 2 ACs,4-5 Destroyers,4-5 Frigates,half dozen of ASW Corvettes and few Mine Sweepers and Submarines???I'm asking as IN Carriers are relatively small and so do our number of Submarines.for smaller country,its ok to deploy 2 separate CBGs.but for a powerful opponent,what should be the deployment policy???


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## Capt.Popeye

Sergi said:


> If I may answer.....
> 
> Dude everything is NOT on paper always. eg India doesn't have S-300 officially , Israel isn't a nuclear state and so on
> 
> 
> Many things are kept under carpet but some got leaked and always denied by all parties.
> As @Capt.Popeye said Yes Kitty hawk was offereed by USA with air elements. That doent mean it was going to be transffered with the Nimitz class techs. And would have strings attached too. Some also say that it was offered so that F-18 could get a boost in MMRCA.
> 
> It was rejected by IN
> - couldnt afford the total package.
> - IN was/is not happy with the strings.
> - TOT would have been zero so have to have depend on US for everything.
> - cost of operating a N-Carrier is more than conventional one
> 
> If you look back to 2008 its the same period when Bush became pro-India and was the same time when Nuclear deal was being dissucssed. India is only country to have that ( for many reasons ) with USA backing it up.
> 
> How hard is it for US to decommission and water down a carrier to offer it to India ???
> And Russia getting hands on US techs is total BS then why in world US sell india C-17/C-130/Apache/P-8Is ??? Are they outdated ???
> 
> 2008 was the time when US-Pak relations were on the verge rupture. So all things were possible and it would have been worth billions of dollar deal. So it was total gain for US .... Even more than India.


 

Hey matey; you are trying hard, but I do not much fancy your chances nevertheless: considering the plethora of (less than meaningful or factual) arguments that got thrown back at me.

That discussion on a possible SALE did not progress beyond the discussion stage and for the reasons that I enumerated and you have amplified further.

Actually that was a period that USA decided to make a paradigm shift in its relations with India; so conceivably it may have been connected with that.
And lastly; not all diplomatic moves get talked about on front-pages if at all they do. Little wonder that Assange and Snowden have become "hot" but "prickly" property !
And this was an infructous palaver which came to naught. So what was there to talk about? 


Abingdonboy said:


> @Dillinger @Capt.Popeye just heard from a friend of mine the Viky will be sailing with 5 IN escorts/support vessels on its return journey to India later this year....


 
I do not know about that. Present reports indicate a Talwar Class frigate and a Deepak class FRS will form the Screen until the Red Sea. After that a CBG will form-up (Likely a Delhi class with two other Frigates and Corvettes and INS Viraat as well) these ships are only the Surface Group. But that is also something to do with the pageantry associated with inducting a Capital Ship into the Fleet.

The rest we will hear of by and by.

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## jhungary

Capt.Popeye said:


> Listen up now: I have spent enough time (and bandwidth) explaining the lack of facts and infirmities in the arguments that you dished out.
> 
> Since BS is unworthy of further meaningful discourse.
> _Avast there._


 
So, are so some kind of authority in that field and* i have to take whatever you say as a fact*?

*You explained nothing on the reference i quote, and Actual Navy spoke person goes on the record saying that deal were never even considered by the US*

*You explained nothing on the fact that Kitty Hawk will be in US until beyond 2015, why the "Alleged: discuss happened 7 years eariler.*

*You explained nothing on the fact that Kitty Hawk is and still is cutting edge, what is the good for the US to transfer such equipment to an Russian Allied.*

All i can hear is US Try to offer it, and India cannot afford it so it was not consider, mate, where is your source to back up this story? Because my source, the US Navy, said the so called "deal", were not even materialised. And it is just a rumor

I gave source vs you said, and til now all 3 question i have ask still not being answer by you. And now you are calling me wasting your time?? Oh my god, you are such a genius.

Yeah, *in the end, In 2008, US want to pipe down a carrier that is ready in 2015 or later, free of charge to India by buying some of the Superhornet and if that story make sense to you, i got nothing to say about it.*

You say like we American were dumbasses and you Indian are supernatural highly intelligence human being, beacuse simply what make sense to you, does not make sense to us


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## jhungary

Sergi said:


> If I may answer.....
> 
> Dude everything is NOT on paper always. eg India doesn't have S-300 officially , Israel isn't a nuclear state and so on
> 
> 
> Many things are kept under carpet but some got leaked and always denied by all parties.
> As @Capt.Popeye said Yes Kitty hawk was offereed by USA with air elements. That doent mean it was going to be transffered with the Nimitz class techs. And would have strings attached too. Some also say that it was offered so that F-18 could get a boost in MMRCA.
> 
> It was rejected by IN
> - couldnt afford the total package.
> - IN was/is not happy with the strings.
> - TOT would have been zero so have to have depend on US for everything.
> - cost of operating a N-Carrier is more than conventional one
> 
> If you look back to 2008 its the same period when Bush became pro-India and was the same time when Nuclear deal was being dissucssed. India is only country to have that ( for many reasons ) with USA backing it up.
> 
> How hard is it for US to decommission and water down a carrier to offer it to India ???
> And Russia getting hands on US techs is total BS then why in world US sell india C-17/C-130/Apache/P-8Is ??? Are they outdated ???
> 
> 2008 was the time when US-Pak relations were on the verge rupture. So all things were possible and it would have been worth billions of dollar deal. So it was total gain for US .... Even more than India.


 
Dude, you think the deal is there because all you look at is in the Indian side of the story, judging by your point, you never even remotely consider the US side of the story.

1.)You were wrong with the Nimitz Class tech. For a Kitty Hawk class to work with then Nimitz class, they need to have the same communication package, same radar and same Software coding to share information. it's not like WW2 when we can phone each other using a wasp class and a yorktown class. Hence the standard requirment for a Kitty Hawk to work with anY Nimitz Class, you need to share the same technology, it would be more believeable if you are saying US offer a watered down Midway calss or Forrestal Class, that literally the same deal but with technology outdated.

2.) For US, if the basic idea is to allow F-18 to push off sale in India, again, they could have achieve it by offering any US Carrier that was waiting to be recycle in 2008. It could also be done again with USS forrestal (Struck 1995 recycled 2013) or Midway (Struck 1997, currently under refurbishment), USS JFK (Struck 2007, looking for a new home as of 2013) Why US offer Kitty Hawk, a ship that have to stay in Mothball until 2015, to counter a deal in Russia that is ongoing?? Either US betting on Russian deal felt thru by-partially or the US think this is the time frame the Russia need to refeb the Gronzky. Which does not make sense. Anyway, if you were to get Kitty Hawk, it would be an empty hull anyway. So Why we destroy USS America (another Kitty Hawk Class, but pipe down Kitty Hawk??

*I would have said if a deal was offer in 2008 to boost sale of F-18, it will be more Believeable if US offer the USS John F Kenndy rather than Kitty Hawk, the JFK were looking for new home since 2007, while Kitty Hawk were not even decom in 2008. JFK were built later than Kitty Hawk, so the condition is better. The cost about the same to the US, they have similiar technology and similiar sizes. I don't see how JFK is any differnet than Kitty Hawk, apart of Kitty Hawk was in Pacific Fleet and JFK is in Atlantic fleet...*

3.) You fail to see the problem about russian and tech, i mean what can you get i let you inspect the C-17 (A cargo plane) C-130 (Also a Cargo plane) and for apache, and P8I, it was Built for India, my brother work for boeing (Briefing work for the P8-A Project), and i can tell you what that mean, that means a lot of the sensitive WILL BE REPLACED by off the shelve technology.

The deal with Kitty Hawk is different, we were using the Kitty Hawk, it will not be build for foreign standard. It would have indeginous hardware and software in It.

4.) By saking how hard it is to decommission and waterdown a carrier means you have no idea how to retire an aircraft carrier. Tell you this, in a mothball fleet (Deommissioned) it will take about 150 days to reactivate an carrier, that is from mothball to operational standard. But Once a Carrier is struck, it will take them anywhere from 5-10 years to pass down for recycle. (You have to get rid of all armament and sensetive technology as well as hazardous material before passing down to strip off, which is the exact same procedure it will take if they were to transfer a ship to another country.)

to Give you a few example

USS Forrestal - (Struck 1997, recycle 2013)
USS America - (Struck 1995, expanded as target 2005)
USS _Saratoga_ - (Struck 1994, stricken 2010)
USS _Ranger_ - (Struck 2004, still dismantling as of 2012)
USS _Independence_ - (Struck 2004, stricken 2012)
USS Constellation - (Struck 2003, currently in inactive service status)
USS John F. Kennedy - (Struck 2007, currently on donation)

5.) Something is possible, something is not, i draw the line pretty clear. The US officially never even envision on transferring any Aircraft carrier to any other nation other than USA itself. The prospect of these kind of Rumor is built when some US official shot their mouth off dueing some kind of national meeting. I remember there were some senior member actually speaking of transferrinf F-22 to Australia and Japan, does that mean the deal was actually offered by US? Some official a while back said they should transfer USS Enterprise to other country instead of scrapping it. Does that mean USS Enterprise is actaully looking for its next home??

Indian may think of getting the Kitty Hawk but does that mean US offered it as a solution to them?? 


danger007 said:


> Thread is about INS Vikky.... not Kitty... chill friends...


 
lol 

Okie Dokie


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## Dash

levina said:


> I am listening...go on tell me.



IN wanted to replace its 2 aircraft carriers in 1989. They wanted to have a smaller ship weighing about 29-30000 tons, comprising of Harrier jump jets and helicopters. by nature these ships are for fleet protection. The requirement was that they will build 2 ships of that class. However due to budget constraints this plan was put on hold in 1991, during the economic turmoil.

This project was again revived, but faced stiff opposition from IAF. They put forward the idea and requirement of more Su 30s as they felt that Su 30 would also cover the threat at the sea, shadowing the INs proposal to have 1. A carrier of their own 2. An air wing of their own. I sometimes hate IAF for this, they have done it to IN and they did to IA too when they wanted their own aviation wing.

But IN was destined to realize its dream against the bullying IAF and other xyz reasons, and as a blessing Russia offered Admiral Goroskov for "free", provided India pays for its refit. You can call it a plan or a blessing but the idea of a free carrier was very well accepted by MOD of a cash strapped country,and culminated the era of Goroskov in IN.

And now that you know the story, you can use your own interpretation skills to analyze what happened later

Regards,
Dash

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## Dash

@jhungary 

You will never find an official source from US DoD or USN regarding the formal sale proposal of sale of Kitty hawk to India. But this was discussed in several meetings between India and US including some other countries too. We can explain the possibility only if you take off your detective cap and willing to wear an analytic one.

@Sergi . Kitty Hawak was a conventionally powered carrier and not a nuclear propelled one.


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## jhungary

Dash said:


> @jhungary
> 
> You will never find an official source from US DoD or USN regarding the formal sale proposal of sale of Kitty hawk to India. But this was discussed in several meetings between India and US including some other countries too. We can explain the possibility only if you take off your detective cap and willing to wear an analytic one.
> 
> @Sergi . Kitty Hawak was a conventionally powered carrier and not a nuclear propelled one.


 
I am more than incline to accept the fact that some US Naval Official mentioned to some governmental offical overseas mentioning the possoibility of sale of the Kitty Hawk. as i said, there are people talking about the same thing when Enterprise goes offline in 2012.

However, that was not what i said originally. What i said is those sale/transfer talk were rumor, there were never an official stance of US to transfer carrier to any nation. Capt. popeye said



> *Later the US offered the Kittyhawk*; but she had little residual life left; the cost of any Life Extension Program prohibitive, cost of operation much more Huge; and then the US was not considered to be a reliable supporting Ally.


 
US never offer anything, some official may have talking about it, that does not mean the US (as a country), offered anything. For you to claim US offered the carrier for whatever sale. You need to have a memo of understanding made up, not just some afternoon talk between 2 presidents or any 2 governmental official.

As i said, there were talks between US and Australian Governmental official about the possibility of selling F-22 to Australia, that's not the same as US offered (past tense) Australia the sale of F-22.

If that official were acting on behalf of the government, there *WILL BE RECORD* talking about the selling and transferring of technology, while the Kitty Hawk thing yield neither, the talk cannot be backed up by any channel, an official (The word I use) of the offer thus NEVER exist.

I would have no problem for Capt Popeye if he said "Some US official talked about transferring the Kitty Hawk" But he did not say that, he said "US offered" did you see the different?

And the rumor started when 2 government official from US and India talked about anything regarding the Kitty Hawk. That's why i said the US willingness to transfer the nKitty Hawk is a rumor. It could be an US Navy official talkewd to an Indian official about Kitty Hawk retiring and looking for a new home, India could have throught about acquiring the Hawks, but that does not mean the US Naval official "Offering" the Kitty Hawk right??


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## satishkumarcsc

The Kitty Hawk was never offered nor was asked by the Indian Govt. It was a media self styled story to make a fuss about. It never existed in the first place.

If people know whenever the US decommissions a ship it is placed under reserve for a few years before being offered for scrap or sale. So there was no logic in the news right from the beginning.


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## jhungary

satishkumarcsc said:


> The Kitty Hawk was never offered nor was asked by the Indian Govt. It was a media self styled story to make a fuss about. It never existed in the first place.
> 
> If people know whenever the US decommissions a ship it is placed under reserve for a few years before being offered for scrap or sale. So there was no logic in the news right from the beginning.


 
That's exactly right and is exactly what i said.

All ship USN retired have to be placed in mothball before actual decommission (Now referred to as Retiring)

Hence no actual point talking about selling a ship that have not serve her mothball tour. American knew about that, that's why we see this news as a Rumor, Indian don't know about this, hence they got taken in by the news. 

As i point out over and over again, it's that simple.


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## Levina

Dash said:


> And now that you know the story, you can use your own interpretation skills to analyze what happened later


Aye aye sir.



Wow!!!






I knew that Goroskov was offered for free.But not about IAF's involvement and its bullying habits.

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## Dash

jhungary said:


> I am more than incline to accept the fact that some US Naval Official mentioned to some governmental offical overseas mentioning the possoibility of sale of the Kitty Hawk. as i said, there are people talking about the same thing when Enterprise goes offline in 2012.
> 
> *However, that was not what i said originally. What i said is those sale/transfer talk were rumor, there were never an official stance of US to transfer carrier to any nation. Capt. popeye said*
> 
> 
> 
> US never offer anything, some official may have talking about it, that does not mean the US (as a country), offered anything. For you to claim US offered the carrier for whatever sale. You need to have a memo of understanding made up, not just some afternoon talk between 2 presidents or any 2 governmental official.
> 
> As i said, there were talks between US and Australian Governmental official about the possibility of selling F-22 to Australia, that's not the same as US offered (past tense) Australia the sale of F-22.
> 
> *If that official were acting on behalf of the government, there WILL BE RECORD talking about the selling and transferring of technology, while the Kitty Hawk thing yield neither, the talk cannot be backed up by any channel, an official (The word I use) of the offer thus NEVER exist.*
> 
> I would have no problem for Capt Popeye if he said "Some US official talked about transferring the Kitty Hawk" But he did not say that, he said "US offered" did you see the different?



Well, it was not rumor first. You need to know that there is a paradigm shift in US-India relation between 2008 and 2013. Today Kr Kerry can come to India and offer joint development of missiles and that goes just more than being on paper. Whether such a scenario will be accepted by both India and US is a different story but it does exist.

If you understand how intergovernmental machinery works then you would also know that everything starts with a informal proposal and then materializes. The sale of every single US machine had been discussed in some meeting or other and in such a meeting USS Kitty Hawk was pitched to India and had India shown interest you would have enough sources today.

Second you said that Kitty hawk was not even decommissioned in 2008, well it got decommissioned in 2009. In one of the meetings(2008) in US-Pivot to Asia by the top officials from, US, Australia, Japan and some other countries who wanted to check the Chinese build up came up with this idea. The Chinese were then building nuke subs and Aircraft carrier. FYI, Australia, in 2009 announced the largest military built up in Asia.This was a result of that meeting by the way.

In the same meeting, when US wanted to deploy more and more CBGs in Asia also wanted an Asian country who had experience in operating a carrier which was "*India*"! and India was proposed USS Kitty Hawk, for reasons not one but many.

This so called offer or proposal was not not just an offer, but it was a *strategic plan *by the US-Asia pivot program. Do you think if India had shown interest Kitty Hawk would have been a big deal?
You still need official proof of such a proposal? i am talking about scheme of events that unfolded later on and India was prominent in that plan. which US later confirmed officially by calling _India as the Pivot to ASIA. _

Forget Kitty Hawk, its that meeting that culminated the journey of more sophisticated assets to India from US, and when Indian members claim this deal, they know we rejected Kitty Hawk but bought so much more from you!!.

Thats the story.. 


levina said:


> Aye aye sir.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I knew that Goroskov was offered for free.But not about IAF's involvement and its bullying habits.


But the Goroskov didnt come for free, did it? so why say "free" when it was not for free?, Use your imagination! or have yo already?


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## Dash

satishkumarcsc said:


> *The Kitty Hawk was never offered nor was asked by the Indian Govt. It was a media self styled story to make a fuss about. It never existed in the first place.*
> 
> If people know whenever the US decommissions a ship it is placed under reserve for a few years before being offered for scrap or sale. So there was no logic in the news right from the beginning.



No official record, but it was offered. Kitty Hawk was a small pawn in the big check mate plan.


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## satishkumarcsc

Dash said:


> No official record, but it was offered. Kitty Hawk was a small pawn in the big check mate plan.



Then even Lockheed offered the F 35...nothing happened. Well everyone who has been in defence circles know that once the US retires any ship it is placed in reserve mothballed. After a few years only they are decommissioned and scrapped. 

The US officially never offered the Kitty Hawk nor did the Indian Govt. never officially request for the Kitty Hawk. The IN Vice-Admiral immediately dismissed these reports when the rumors started spreading.

The Kitty Hawk was a white elephant to begin with. A 50 year old hull which needed a huge crew to maintain and sail her. The IN could not spare that much resources in the first place. That is why I was sure the Kitty Hawk fiasco was a big rumor.

Let me quote my professor for you: "A country which spreads and believes rumors is bound to fail. Just like the French fell to the Nazis by just them spreading rumors."


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## Dash

satishkumarcsc said:


> Then even Lockheed offered the F 35...nothing happened. Well everyone who has been in defence circles know that once the US retires any ship it is placed in reserve mothballed. After a few years only they are decommissioned and scrapped.
> 
> The US officially never offered the Kitty Hawk nor did the Indian Govt. never officially request for the Kitty Hawk. The IN Vice-Admiral immediately dismissed these reports when the rumors started spreading.
> 
> The Kitty Hawk was a white elephant to begin with. A 50 year old hull which needed a huge crew to maintain and sail her. The IN could not spare that much resources in the first place. That is why I was sure the Kitty Hawk fiasco was a big rumor.
> 
> Let me quote my professor for you: "A country which spreads and believes rumors is bound to fail. Just like the French fell to the Nazis by just them spreading rumors."



If you go with the reply I have given to Jhungary, you will understand what I men to say, rest I leave it to you.

You may want to go through this link, and towards the end lies my end of explanation..

Forum


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## jhungary

Dash said:


> Well, it was not rumor first. You need to know that there is a paradigm shift in US-India relation between 2008 and 2013. Today Kr Kerry can come to India and offer joint development of missiles and that goes just more than being on paper. Whether such a scenario will be accepted by both India and US is a different story but it does exist.
> 
> If you understand how intergovernmental machinery works then you would also know that everything starts with a informal proposal and then materializes. The sale of every single US machine had been discussed in some meeting or other and in such a meeting USS Kitty Hawk was pitched to India and had India shown interest you would have enough sources today.
> 
> Second you said that Kitty hawk was not even decommissioned in 2008, well it got decommissioned in 2009. In one of the meetings(2008) in US-Pivot to Asia by the top officials from, US, Australia, Japan and some other countries who wanted to check the Chinese build up came up with this idea. The Chinese were then building nuke subs and Aircraft carrier. FYI, Australia, in 2009 announced the largest military built up in Asia.This was a result of that meeting by the way.
> 
> In the same meeting, when US wanted to deploy more and more CBGs in Asia also wanted an Asian country who had experience in operating a carrier which was "*India*"! and India was proposed USS Kitty Hawk, for reasons not one but many.
> 
> This so called offer or proposal was not not just an offer, but it was a *strategic plan *by the US-Asia pivot program. Do you think if India had shown interest Kitty Hawk would have been a big deal?
> You still need official proof of such a proposal? i am talking about scheme of events that unfolded later on and India was prominent in that plan. which US later confirmed officially by calling _India as the Pivot to ASIA. _
> 
> Forget Kitty Hawk, its that meeting that culminated the journey of more sophisticated assets to India from US, and when Indian members claim this deal, they know we rejected Kitty Hawk but bought so much more from you!!.
> 
> Thats the story..
> But the Goroskov didnt come for free, did it? so why say "free" when it was not for free?, Use your imagination! or have yo already?


 
lol, did you actually realise you are describing a rumor itself.

Unless you are present in the meeting you are speculated on what happened in that meeting. That is the different between you and me, i go after the truth after facts. Fact that known for sure. But you based the action on a meeting you have not attend vis-a-vis, you are spectculating the concept.

Even in your spectulation, there are a few item that you thought wrong.

Let me listed the fact to you one by one, then gone after what you thought wrong.

Facts.

1.)US will mothball any of its ship, hence a talk of the sale of a ship that was not decommissioned is absurd as it wil lstill need to serve the remaining term in the reserve

2.)While US have a more capable carrier retired in 2007 (The USS John F Kennedy) which the USN is actually looking for home to, USS JFK is a modified Kitty Hawk Class, built later than Kitty Hawk itself. Why Kitty Hawk is purposed but not JFK?

3.) Kitty Hawk does not have capacity to operate 65 Super Hornet. Kitty Hawk is a smaller carrier that standard complement of 40 Super hornet.

4.) There are several more allied in the Asia Pacific that closer to India whom operating or Operated Aircraft Carrier. Thailand, Japan and Australia, especially Thailand and Australia whom operate US aircraft and US Ships. Japan were bounded by National Congress notto have own aircraft carrier. Hpowever, they still do.

When you put all these fact together, you will see US oferring an Aircraft Carrier to India is highly unlikely

now, go over what you said



> If you understand how intergovernmental machinery works then you would also know that everything starts with a informal proposal and then materializes. The sale of every single US machine had been discussed in some meeting or other and in such a meeting USS Kitty Hawk was pitched to India and had India shown interest you would have enough sources today.


 
Actually you are not buying vegetable in supermarket, you just go pick it up anjd p[ay at checkout. Or you don't just talk to the supermarket staff and tell them what you want and they give it to you.

If India want to operate US carrier and ask US for it, they will first need to study their own capability and their logistic support first, where they are going to house it, where you want them to operate and how many complement you want with an US Carrier

If US want to sell/trasnfer a carrier to India, first they need to see if India acceptable for such a delievery, and how this will benefit the US governemnt and US defence indurstry. All these study takes time and money and always generate an official report. I myself done this whe ni was in the US Army doing battle intelligence. How it will affect our AO if we pipe down this and that to Pakistani Army or Afghanistan local militia.

None of the aforeentioned report were ever exist. So even if a sale of Kitty Hawk did mentioned in that meeting, it would be those "In the moment thing" it can hardly called "US offered"



> Second you said that Kitty hawk was not even decommissioned in 2008, well it got decommissioned in 2009. In one of the meetings(2008) in US-Pivot to Asia by the top officials from, US, Australia, Japan and some other countries who wanted to check the Chinese build up came up with this idea. The Chinese were then building nuke subs and Aircraft carrier. FYI, Australia, in 2009 announced the largest military built up in Asia.This was a result of that meeting by the way.


 
First of all, what you hear is, US want to have China in check, and Australia announce a large Military build up after said meeting. So ask yourselves this, why the US not offered it to Australia??



> In the same meeting, when US wanted to deploy more and more CBGs in Asia also wanted an Asian country who had experience in operating a carrier which was "*India*"! and India was proposed USS Kitty Hawk, for reasons not one but many.


 
Well, not only India have the Carrier operation experience in Asia-Pacific region as i said, and how do you get from US want an country that operating a carrier to US actually proposed the Kitty Hawk is beyond me. Thoase two are not related to each other.



> This so called offer or proposal was not not just an offer, but it was a *strategic plan *by the US-Asia pivot program. Do you think if India had shown interest Kitty Hawk would have been a big deal?
> You still need official proof of such a proposal? i am talking about scheme of events that unfolded later on and India was prominent in that plan. which US later confirmed officially by calling _India as the Pivot to ASIA. _


 
The problem is, if this is a strategic plan by the US would US be operating the Kitty Hawk itself??

In all, you based your argument in an meeting i don't think you were in, yet i based my argument on facts. There are many question was not answered that would seriously doubt if and ever US did actually offer an aircraft carrier to India.

India may want a US Carrier, that does not mean US is offering it.

So in my poinion, this was a hoax, you are free to believe anything you want, but fact is fact, you can change anything but you cannot change the facts. US Never offer any Carrier to India. That's plain and simple.


----------



## Levina

Dash said:


> But the Goroskov didnt come for free, did it? so why say "free" when it was not for free?, Use your imagination! or have yo already?



yeah mom says i have a very good imagination.

But then i know USD 2.35 billions are not peanuts.


----------



## Dash

jhungary said:


> lol, did you actually realise you are describing a rumor itself.
> 
> Unless you are present in the meeting you are speculated on what happened in that meeting. That is the different between you and me, i go after the truth after facts. Fact that known for sure. But you based the action on a meeting you have not attend vis-a-vis, you are spectculating the concept.
> 
> Even in your spectulation, there are a few item that you thought wrong.
> 
> Let me listed the fact to you one by one, then gone after what you thought wrong.
> 
> Facts.
> 
> 1.)US will mothball any of its ship, hence a talk of the sale of a ship that was not decommissioned is absurd as it wil lstill need to serve the remaining term in the reserve
> 
> 2.)While US have a more capable carrier retired in 2007 (The USS John F Kennedy) which the USN is actually looking for home to, USS JFK is a modified Kitty Hawk Class, built later than Kitty Hawk itself. Why Kitty Hawk is purposed but not JFK?
> 
> 3.) Kitty Hawk does not have capacity to operate 65 Super Hornet. Kitty Hawk is a smaller carrier that standard complement of 40 Super hornet.
> 
> 4.) There are several more allied in the Asia Pacific that closer to India whom operating or Operated Aircraft Carrier. Thailand, Japan and Australia, especially Thailand and Australia whom operate US aircraft and US Ships. Japan were bounded by National Congress notto have own aircraft carrier. Hpowever, they still do.
> 
> When you put all these fact together, you will see US oferring an Aircraft Carrier to India is highly unlikely
> 
> now, go over what you said
> 
> 
> 
> Actually you are not buying vegetable in supermarket, you just go pick it up anjd p[ay at checkout. Or you don't just talk to the supermarket staff and tell them what you want and they give it to you.
> 
> If India want to operate US carrier and ask US for it, they will first need to study their own capability and their logistic support first, where they are going to house it, where you want them to operate and how many complement you want with an US Carrier
> 
> If US want to sell/trasnfer a carrier to India, first they need to see if India acceptable for such a delievery, and how this will benefit the US governemnt and US defence indurstry. All these study takes time and money and always generate an official report. I myself done this whe ni was in the US Army doing battle intelligence. How it will affect our AO if we pipe down this and that to Pakistani Army or Afghanistan local militia.
> 
> None of the aforeentioned report were ever exist. So even if a sale of Kitty Hawk did mentioned in that meeting, it would be those "In the moment thing" it can hardly called "US offered"
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, what you hear is, US want to have China in check, and Australia announce a large Military build up after said meeting. So ask yourselves this, why the US not offered it to Australia??
> 
> 
> 
> Well, not only India have the Carrier operation experience in Asia-Pacific region as i said, and how do you get from US want an country that operating a carrier to US actually proposed the Kitty Hawk is beyond me. Thoase two are not related to each other.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, if this is a strategic plan by the US would US be operating the Kitty Hawk itself??
> 
> In all, you based your argument in an meeting i don't think you were in, yet i based my argument on facts. There are many question was not answered that would seriously doubt if and ever US did actually offer an aircraft carrier to India.
> 
> India may want a US Carrier, that does not mean US is offering it.
> 
> So in my poinion, this was a hoax, you are free to believe anything you want, but fact is fact, you can change anything but you cannot change the facts. US Never offer any Carrier to India. That's plain and simple.



All I was trying is to give a reason behind that rumor(for me its a strategic plan) as in this case hard evidence is absent but you went ahead and accused me of giving wrong facts, facts that 'I' never provided!

Its difficult for military professionals to understand how diplomacy and politics works. let me tell you that these are not things that will be declared in public, especially when you talk about Asia and its military balance visa-vis China and US will never directly endorse such a move on records considering it has geopolitical implications. My argument was to point your imagination towards the endorsement of such a proposal and the highest levels and that means it was a done deal if it was a done deal for both parties.

BTW, USS kennedy was also in talks by certain people but I will rest my case here. I have no source honestly.


----------



## jhungary

Dash said:


> All I was trying is to give a reason behind that rumor(for me its a strategic plan) as in this case hard evidence is absent but you went ahead and accused me of giving wrong facts, facts that 'I' never provided!
> 
> Its difficult for military professionals to understand how diplomacy and politics works. let me tell you that these are not things that will be declared in public, especially when you talk about Asia and its military balance visa-vis China and US will never directly endorse such a move on records considering it has geopolitical implications. My argument was to point your imagination towards the endorsement of such a proposal and the highest levels and that means it was a done deal if it was a done deal for both parties.
> 
> BTW, USS kennedy was also in talks by certain people but I will rest my case here. I have no source honestly.


 
Dude, i have said that many many time, i did not denied if there are people (Even high Ranking US Official) talking about transfer this and that to some other country. We live in a free country. I never said there were no talks about giving or selling Kitty Hawk.

Problem is, talk is talk, and talk is cheap, what the other guy said was literally "US Offered" I can talk about a lot of stuff but if i have to follow them up and offer them to you, it would not be possible.

Is there any talk between US and India in government level about the Kitty Hawk? Probably, i don't know.
And all i know is, no offer were ever made or requested. Hence using the word "US Offered" is plainly and simply wrong.

Just so you know, i have a degree in international politic, i did my share in the battlefield, but that degree put me in staff position within the MIltiary. And my wife was a Military Lawyer.

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## Nan Yang

akand bharat said:


> Yes "Barak 8" indo-israel But it will take time to be operational And will be fit in around 2017 till then it will Have to depend on *ASOR Russian electronic warfare system* fitted on the carrier. Those who participated said the ship's sensors picked up incoming aircraft at a distance of 350 km and, in some cases, even 400 km.Hope that it will be equiped with Barak-8 as soon Possible



Maybe not.

*India-Israel joint venture to manufacture missiles fails to take off*
India-Israel joint venture to manufacture missiles fails to take off - Times Of India


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## Dash

jhungary said:


> Dude, i have said that many many time, i did not denied if there are people (Even high Ranking US Official) talking about transfer this and that to some other country. We live in a free country. I never said there were no talks about giving or selling Kitty Hawk.
> 
> Problem is, talk is talk, and talk is cheap, what the other guy said was literally "US Offered" I can talk about a lot of stuff but if i have to follow them up and offer them to you, it would not be possible.
> 
> Is there any talk between US and India in government level about the Kitty Hawk? Probably, i don't know.
> And all i know is, no offer were ever made or requested. Hence using the word "US Offered" is plainly and simply wrong.
> 
> Just so you know, i have a degree in international politic, i did my share in the battlefield, but that degree put me in staff position within the MIltiary. And my wife was a Military Lawyer.



and I never denied!!. But all I am saying is that that was a part of the plan..

See this reference and let me know if you think the below event was some cheap talk..
there were events like this where this would have been discussed.
After USS Nimitz, it will be USS Kitty Hawk - India - DNA



> _The five-day exercise would have 20 ships, sources said. Sources said the largest naval exercise in Indian waters would feature surface ships, submarines and maritime aircrafts.
> This exercise comes at a time when the Chinese have expressed concerns over the quadripartite meeting between the US, Japan, India and Australia on May 24 and 25 on the sidelines of the ASEAN Regional Forum in Manila. China was annoyed enough to ask all the countries for a formal explanation on the meeting, while reminding them to be *"open and inclusive"*.
> 
> The five-sided exercise is taking place also against the backdrop of the first ever Indo-US-Japan bilateral naval exercise in April, which had kicked up concerns about India being sucked into an anti-Chinese alliance._


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## jhungary

Dash said:


> and I never denied!!. But all I am saying is that that was a part of the plan..
> 
> See this reference and let me know if you think the below event was some cheap talk..
> there were events like this where this was discussed.
> After USS Nimitz, it will be USS Kitty Hawk - India - DNA


 

The article said nothing about or regarding the the transfer of USS Kitty Hawk. Better yet, the article said nothing about anything. beside US, India, Japan and Australia acknowledge the threat from China and agree on a more multi-lateral co-operation.

They could have said anything in that _quadripartite meeting, _there are no evidence what so ever suggested that the US is offering an Aircraft Carrier to India, or anything about aircraft carrier were in the talk.

That proof nothing.


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## Star Wars

From what i remember the whole Kitty Hawk thing is bogus and a media hype ....


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## Sergi

Capt.Popeye said:


> Hey matey; you are trying hard, but I do not much fancy your chances nevertheless: considering the plethora of (less than meaningful or factual) arguments that got thrown back at me.
> 
> That discussion on a possible SALE did not progress beyond the discussion stage and for the reasons that I enumerated and you have amplified further.
> 
> Actually that was a period that USA decided to make a paradigm shift in its relations with India; so conceivably it may have been connected with that.
> And lastly; not all diplomatic moves get talked about on front-pages if at all they do. Little wonder that Assange and Snowden have become "hot" but "prickly" property !
> And this was an infructous palaver which came to naught. So what was there to talk about?



Hahaha couldnt agree more. But I kinda have adiction to try


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## Sergi

jhungary said:


> Dude, you think the deal is there because all you look at is in the Indian side of the story, judging by your point, you never even remotely consider the US side of the story.
> 
> 1.)You were wrong with the Nimitz Class tech. For a Kitty Hawk class to work with then Nimitz class, they need to have the same communication package, same radar and same Software coding to share information. it's not like WW2 when we can phone each other using a wasp class and a yorktown class. Hence the standard requirment for a Kitty Hawk to work with anY Nimitz Class, you need to share the same technology, it would be more believeable if you are saying US offer a watered down Midway calss or Forrestal Class, that literally the same deal but with technology outdated.
> 
> 2.) For US, if the basic idea is to allow F-18 to push off sale in India, again, they could have achieve it by offering any US Carrier that was waiting to be recycle in 2008. It could also be done again with USS forrestal (Struck 1995 recycled 2013) or Midway (Struck 1997, currently under refurbishment), USS JFK (Struck 2007, looking for a new home as of 2013) Why US offer Kitty Hawk, a ship that have to stay in Mothball until 2015, to counter a deal in Russia that is ongoing?? Either US betting on Russian deal felt thru by-partially or the US think this is the time frame the Russia need to refeb the Gronzky. Which does not make sense. Anyway, if you were to get Kitty Hawk, it would be an empty hull anyway. So Why we destroy USS America (another Kitty Hawk Class, but pipe down Kitty Hawk??
> 
> *I would have said if a deal was offer in 2008 to boost sale of F-18, it will be more Believeable if US offer the USS John F Kenndy rather than Kitty Hawk, the JFK were looking for new home since 2007, while Kitty Hawk were not even decom in 2008. JFK were built later than Kitty Hawk, so the condition is better. The cost about the same to the US, they have similiar technology and similiar sizes. I don't see how JFK is any differnet than Kitty Hawk, apart of Kitty Hawk was in Pacific Fleet and JFK is in Atlantic fleet...*
> 
> 3.) You fail to see the problem about russian and tech, i mean what can you get i let you inspect the C-17 (A cargo plane) C-130 (Also a Cargo plane) and for apache, and P8I, it was Built for India, my brother work for boeing (Briefing work for the P8-A Project), and i can tell you what that mean, that means a lot of the sensitive WILL BE REPLACED by off the shelve technology.
> 
> The deal with Kitty Hawk is different, we were using the Kitty Hawk, it will not be build for foreign standard. It would have indeginous hardware and software in It.
> 
> 4.) By saking how hard it is to decommission and waterdown a carrier means you have no idea how to retire an aircraft carrier. Tell you this, in a mothball fleet (Deommissioned) it will take about 150 days to reactivate an carrier, that is from mothball to operational standard. But Once a Carrier is struck, it will take them anywhere from 5-10 years to pass down for recycle. (You have to get rid of all armament and sensetive technology as well as hazardous material before passing down to strip off, which is the exact same procedure it will take if they were to transfer a ship to another country.)
> 
> to Give you a few example
> 
> USS Forrestal - (Struck 1997, recycle 2013)
> USS America - (Struck 1995, expanded as target 2005)
> USS _Saratoga_ - (Struck 1994, stricken 2010)
> USS _Ranger_ - (Struck 2004, still dismantling as of 2012)
> USS _Independence_ - (Struck 2004, stricken 2012)
> USS Constellation - (Struck 2003, currently in inactive service status)
> USS John F. Kennedy - (Struck 2007, currently on donation)
> 
> 5.) Something is possible, something is not, i draw the line pretty clear. The US officially never even envision on transferring any Aircraft carrier to any other nation other than USA itself. The prospect of these kind of Rumor is built when some US official shot their mouth off dueing some kind of national meeting. I remember there were some senior member actually speaking of transferrinf F-22 to Australia and Japan, does that mean the deal was actually offered by US? Some official a while back said they should transfer USS Enterprise to other country instead of scrapping it. Does that mean USS Enterprise is actaully looking for its next home??
> 
> Indian may think of getting the Kitty Hawk but does that mean US offered it as a solution to them??
> 
> lol
> 
> Okie Dokie


Sorry mate I am pretty sure I am not thinking or guessing it. Now you are free to make your opinion on why I said this. I cant go in details about that.

Again when anybody said anything about transferring US tech as is ????
Everything has a substitute. May be not as powerful as original but good enough to get job done. MKIsation isn't new for India.

Wrong I write that all from US point of view. Most of the deals US engaged are of political type or more political than just business. And even for business IN going for 60/65 18s was act to make grounds for 18s for IAFs MMRCA - then said to be mother of all defence deals.

Why kitty ??? Frankly I don't know. It was offered by US side. They could tell you why that and not other.

3. Hahaaha you are countering your own argument. You can count on the fact that the machines that will be or already delivered to India are same as those which participated in evolution trials unless-agreed upon priorly.
I too is saying sensitive tech will be replaced or water down. But given in right hands it can be replaced too. Don't underestimateRussians  you are wrong on Apaches. They are custom build for IAF NOT watered down. They will come as is and even with Longbow.

4. Non of Indian problems. Again its the question to be asked to US side.

5. You are free to think what you want. I cant help or change that.
But what I am telling you is part of a discussion initiated by US and NOT India.
India never asked for any carrier to US till date. Only thing IN showed interest in was Catapult. May be in year 2010/11.


With this I rest my argument as I don't have any diplomatic cables to leak  and all you want is written proof which I don't have. So lets keep status quo. 


Dash said:


> @Sergi . Kitty Hawak was a conventionally powered carrier and not a nuclear propelled one.



I know thats why that was point 4. It was related to tech. Otherwise point 1 and 4 are same. 


jhungary said:


> Dude, i have said that many many time, i did not denied if there are people (Even high Ranking US Official) talking about transfer this and that to some other country. We live in a free country. I never said there were no talks about giving or selling Kitty Hawk.
> 
> Problem is, talk is talk, and talk is cheap, what the other guy said was literally "US Offered" I can talk about a lot of stuff but if i have to follow them up and offer them to you, it would not be possible.
> 
> Is there any talk between US and India in government level about the Kitty Hawk? Probably, i don't know.
> And all i know is, no offer were ever made or requested. Hence using the word "US Offered" is plainly and simply wrong.
> 
> Just so you know, i have a degree in international politic, i did my share in the battlefield, but that degree put me in staff position within the MIltiary. And my wife was a Military Lawyer.



*For the person who is having degree in International politics should know people ( officials ) don't talk from their pockets in diplomatic meetings. They sit with a agenda set down by their government/s*. Personal opinion is kept out from such things.

And repeating again anything offered in diplomatic meetings is offered by the respective govts and not by the guies.

Reading your post make me feel that can any of your high ranking servicemen offer a carrier to another country without his govt's permission !!! I know you like to say you live in the free country but I am hoping its not that free


----------



## jhungary

Sergi said:


> Sorry mate I am pretty sure I am not thinking or guessing it. Now you are free to make your opinion on why I said this. I cant go in details about that.
> 
> Again when anybody said anything about transferring US tech as is ????
> Everything has a substitute. May be not as powerful as original but good enough to get job done. MKIsation isn't new for India.
> 
> Wrong I write that all from US point of view. Most of the deals US engaged are of political type or more political than just business. And even for business IN going for 60/65 18s was act to make grounds for 18s for IAFs MMRCA - then said to be mother of all defence deals.
> 
> Why kitty ??? Frankly I don't know. It was offered by US side. They could tell you why that and not other.
> 
> 3. Hahaaha you are countering your own argument. You can count on the fact that the machines that will be or already delivered to India are same as those which participated in evolution trials unless-agreed upon priorly.
> I too is saying sensitive tech will be replaced or water down. But given in right hands it can be replaced too. Don't underestimateRussians  you are wrong on Apaches. They are custom build for IAF NOT watered down. They will come as is and even with Longbow.
> 
> 4. Non of Indian problems. Again its the question to be asked to US side.
> 
> 5. You are free to think what you want. I cant help or change that.
> But what I am telling you is part of a discussion initiated by US and NOT India.
> India never asked for any carrier to US till date. Only thing IN showed interest in was Catapult. May be in year 2010/11.
> 
> 
> With this I rest my argument as I don't have any diplomatic cables to leak  and all you want is written proof which I don't have. So lets keep status quo.
> 
> I know thats why that was point 4. It was related to tech. Otherwise point 1 and 4 are same.


 
1.) You said that as if India is the only market for arms trade, if that is the case, then i think our government will try and pitch the F-35 Deal, not F-18 Super Hornet, why not 65 F-35B for free Kitty Hawk Hull??

2.) US never offered Kitty Hawk to India, they could not tell us why, as there are no way they could offer USS Kitty Hawk beyond 2015. UNless, of course, you want to wait that long

3.) You are wrong, the apache we sold India is AH-64D Block 3, which is 1 grade lower than the deal we just wemt with Taiwan and even Indonesia (AH-64E) and the AH-64D Block 3 is not based on the US own AH-64A but rather Sea Apache by Westland Apache, the British Export version.

Actually, it is safe to say, most to all exported Version will based on RAH-64D instead of AH-64D US is using, you want to know why??

4.) That is an irrelevent question

5.) There were no discussion and everyone in American, some in India (Judging by the thread response) know this so called "Deal" is a hoax, many of the requirment of this deal does not make sense when they made it. And i don't know about you, US will not do stuff that does not make senes.


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## Sergi

jhungary said:


> 1.) You said that as if India is the only market for arms trade, if that is the case, then i think our government will try and pitch the F-35 Deal, not F-18 Super Hornet, why not 65 F-35B for free Kitty Hawk Hull??
> 
> 2.) US never offered Kitty Hawk to India, they could not tell us why, as there are no way they could offer USS Kitty Hawk beyond 2015. UNless, of course, you want to wait that long
> 
> 3.) You are wrong, the apache we sold India is AH-64D Block 3, which is 1 grade lower than the deal we just wemt with Taiwan and even Indonesia (AH-64E) and the AH-64D Block 3 is not based on the US own AH-64A but rather Sea Apache by Westland Apache, the British Export version.
> 
> Actually, it is safe to say, most to all exported Version will based on RAH-64D instead of AH-64D US is using, you want to know why??
> 
> 4.) That is an irrelevent question
> 
> 5.) There were no discussion and everyone in American, some in India (Judging by the thread response) know this so called "Deal" is a hoax, many of the requirment of this deal does not make sense when they made it. And i don't know about you, US will not do stuff that does not make senes.


"Offer" NOT "deal". Two different things.
F-35 wasn't in MMRCA in 2008. And similarly its been denied many times by US side that F-35 was ever offered to India. So again its not question for India.


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## Capt.Popeye

Sergi said:


> 5. You are free to think what you want. I cant help or change that.
> But what I am telling you is part of a discussion initiated by US and NOT India.
> India never asked for any carrier to US till date. Only thing IN showed interest in was Catapult. May be in year 2010/11.


 
The Catapult has been a matter of ongoing discussion for some time already. However it is the EMALS that is the real point of interest to the IN. Consequently, the manufacturers of EMALS have made the required Technical Presentations to NHQ. Another USN operated piece of eqpt. that has had Technical Presentations made for IN is the V-22 Osprey. To this moment, Boeing Vertol has had a Technical Liason Team visiting India off and on to follow up. But the IN has not made up its mind about the Osprey. About EMALS, Dept. of State has to agree, while the Steam CAT is already available. However Steam CATs are not of interest to IN since it is progressively moving away from Conventional Boilers & Steam Turbine propulsion and instead investing in GT propulsion. Which is why the LM GTs from USA are being made under license at HAL, Bangalore. If the IAC-2 and IAC-3 become substantially bigger, then the RR Trent GTs will also get looked at. If EMALS does not come through then the future IACs will remain STOBAR. Issues with Steam CAT is then there has to be an auxiliary boiler just to provide Steam on a GT propelled ship. Also its much larger than the eqpt. required for EMALS and rather more maintenance hungry.

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## jhungary

Sergi said:


> "Offer" NOT "deal". Two different things.
> F-35 wasn't in MMRCA in 2008.


 


> *For the person who is having degree in International politics should know people ( officials ) don't talk from their pockets in diplomatic meetings. They sit with a agenda set down by their government/s*. Personal opinion is kept out from such things.
> And repeating again anything offered in diplomatic meetings is offered by the respective govts and not by the guies.
> Reading your post make me feel that can any of your high ranking servicemen offer a carrier to another country without his govt's permission !!! I know you like to say you live in the free country but I am hoping its not that free


 
I don't know about Indian Politican, but US and Australian politician always talk out of their pocket, or put their own feet in their mouth when you talk about International Politic

In 2012, Bob Carr, then Australian Foreign Misinter said that with then US Republican President and in the end, Romney quote bob carr said



> His office released the quote, which stated: "America is just one budget deal away from ending all talk of America being in decline."


 
That is what Bob Carr said, but he wasn't meant to come out like that, that create quite a stir in both Australian and American politics.

That is what Mr carr personal throught but ended up quoting by Romney as what Australia think.

This does happen.

Carr denies criticising US in Romney talks - Yahoo7 Sport

When i mean Deal mean ordeal, the whole incident.

The problem is, F-35 is going to be ready in 2014, they know for sure they can only Offer the Kitty Hawk after 2015, what i was saying is, isn't it better to push the F-35 on Kitty Hawk better than push some f-18 hornet with it, it is not going to deliever in 2008 or 2009 anyway


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## Sergi

jhungary said:


> I don't know about Indian Politican, but US and Australian politician always talk out of their pocket, or put their own feet in their mouth when you talk about International Politic
> 
> In 2012, Bob Carr, then Australian Foreign Misinter said that with then US Republican President and in the end, Romney quote bob carr said
> 
> 
> 
> That is what Bob Carr said, but he wasn't meant to come out like that, that create quite a stir in both Australian and American politics.
> 
> That is what Mr carr personal throught but ended up quoting by Romney as what Australia think.
> 
> This does happen.
> 
> Carr denies criticising US in Romney talks - Yahoo7 Sport
> 
> When i mean Deal mean ordeal, the whole incident.
> 
> The problem is, F-35 is going to be ready in 2014, they know for sure they can only Offer the Kitty Hawk after 2015, what i was saying is, isn't it better to push the F-35 on Kitty Hawk better than push some f-18 hornet with it, it is not going to deliever in 2008 or 2009 anyway


Thats when they talk publicly !!!!
Aren't diplomatic meetings held in closed rooms followed by press note. And if I am not wrong politicians just set the target of relations its officials who navigate the deals and proposals.


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## jhungary

Sergi said:


> Thats when they talk publicly !!!!
> Aren't diplomatic meetings held in closed rooms followed by press note. And if I am not wrong politicians just set the target of relations its officials who navigate the deals and proposals.


 
I believe it was a closed room meeting when Mr Carr said that, infact if i remember the detail correctly, the alleged talk happen in a private meeting in one of those Republician billionaire ranch and yet Romney gone public with it

There you go



> *FOREIGN minister Bob Carr says he wasn't criticising America when he spoke of a nation "in decline" during a private conversation with Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney. *


 
Carr says Romney quoted his 'US in decline' remark out of context | News.com.au


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## Sergi

Capt.Popeye said:


> The Catapult has been a matter of ongoing discussion for some time already. However it is the EMALS that is the real point of interest to the IN. Consequently, the manufacturers of EMALS have made the required Technical Presentations to NHQ. Another USN operated piece of eqpt. that has had Technical Presentations made for IN is the V-22 Osprey. To this moment, Boeing Vertol has had a Technical Liason Team visiting India off and on to follow up. But the IN has not made up its mind about the Osprey. About EMALS, Dept. of State has to agree, while the Steam CAT is already available. However Steam CATs are not of interest to IN since it is progressively moving away from Conventional Boilers & Steam Turbine propulsion and instead investing in GT propulsion. Which is why the LM GTs from USA are being made under license at HAL, Bangalore. If the IAC-2 and IAC-3 become substantially bigger, then the RR Trent GTs will also get looked at. If EMALS does not come through then the future IACs will remain STOBAR. Issues with Steam CAT is then there has to be an auxiliary boiler just to provide Steam on a GT propelled ship. Also its much larger than the eqpt. required for EMALS and rather more maintenance hungry.


I really don't think we will get EMALS but I would loved to be wrong 

Are you sure about V-22 ??? 


jhungary said:


> I believe it was a closed room meeting when Mr Carr said that, infact if i remember the detail correctly, the alleged talk happen in a private meeting in one of those Republician billionaire ranch


Sorry I am not aware of that incident but I can give you latest example.

Tell me what America know about recent Obama-Sharif talk !!! Do you believe they talk only things mention in press note ???

I am hoping our definitions of diplomatic meetings are same.


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## jhungary

Sergi said:


> I really don't think we will get EMALS but I would loved to be wrong
> 
> Are you sure about V-22 ???
> Sorry I am not aware of that incident but I can give you latest example.
> 
> Tell me what America know about recent Obama-Sharif talk !!! Do you believe they talk only things mention in press note ???


 
dude, i would not know anything about it

1.) I don't live in America anymore
2.) I hate Obama


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## Sergi

jhungary said:


> dude, i would not know anything about it
> 
> 1.) I don't live in America anymore
> 2.) I hate Obama


1. Still you are writing about kitty with authority 
2. So am I. But its kinda my job profile to follow such things. 
I tell you why I mention that. Next day after the press note a news flashed in most of the media that Obama offered Shariff to pressure India on Kashmir issue if he deal with Hakkaniis and other fractions.
It is said to a rumor but is it ??? Sometimes somethings are leaked on purpose and rumors get you more things than the actaul deal


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## jhungary

Sergi said:


> 1. Still you are writing about kitty with authority
> 2. So am I. But its kinda my job profile to follow such things.
> I tell you why I mention that. Next day after the press note a news flashed in most of the media that Obama offered Shariff to pressure India on Kashmir issue if he deal with Hakkaniis and other fractions.
> It is said to a rumor but is it ??? Sometimes somethings are leaked on purpose and rumors get you more things than the actaul deal


 
1 I was still in America before 2010, but not anymore
2 I have no idea why obama said what he said, and i don't care for any obamacare


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## Sergi

jhungary said:


> 1 I was still in America before 2010, but not anymore
> 2 I have no idea why obama said what he said, and i don't care for any obamacare



1. The kitty was talked in sidelines of then nuclear deals in India. If you can access diplomatic cables of the that time ( may be a bad idea  ) you will know

2. Thats the twist my friend. Obama didn't get what he want but Shariff was able to create a doubt in India. I can assure you the leak was from Pak side. They didn't get anything from Obama but they made sure to slow down Ind-US 

I total calculations Shariff wins as he will be projected in Pak as the one who care for Kashmir issue even though he didn't get anything. And Obama will continue to be the one turning away from India ----- same as his first term.


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## Capt.Popeye

Sergi said:


> I really don't think we will get EMALS but I would loved to be wrong
> 
> Are you sure about V-22 ???


 
At this moment; its unclear how EMALS will happen. Its all tied into Diplomacy. Before the 123 Agreement happened who could conclusively predict that India would get ist Nuclear Deal!
Now a great deal of water has flown below the bridge.
Take a look at all the pronouncements emanating from the US Military Head Honchos about India or the spate of visits to India by State Dept. recently. There may be something to that; unless they have nothing else to do and lots of 'frequent flyer' mileage points accumulated!

About the V-22; Boeing-Vertol is keen (as is the Pentagon); it will boost up the order-book. Its IN that is hesitant, they consider the cost of operation to be unviable. Plus their real attraction is EMALS which will then open the doors to the E-2D Hawkeye which is the real jewel of IN's wish-list. That has been talked about also and has been offered to the IN. But the IN wants to operate them from Carriers not shore Airfields; that cannot happen without EMALS. So lets see what turns out later.

Reading the above; you'll get clearer why the enthusiasm for the Osprey is low. IN is not heavily interested in it as it is. Only an AEW version may be of interest, if EMALS and Hawkeye does not come through. But the continuing surge of enthusiasm in the Pentagon for India says something.
Plus the manufacturers themselves are lobbying the GOTUS. Many changes after 2008.
And on their part; the Indian armed Forces, the Indian Navy included want spanking new stuff--not any _'hand-me-downs'_. Some where, all the interests can and do coincide.

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## GURU DUTT

Capt.Popeye said:


> At this moment; its unclear how EMALS will happen. Its all tied into Diplomacy. Before the 123 Agreement happened who could conclusively predict that India would get ist Nuclear Deal!
> Now a great deal of water has flown below the bridge.
> Take a look at all the pronouncements emanating from the US Military Head Honchos about India or the spate of visits to India by State Dept. recently. There may be something to that; unless they have nothing else to do and lots of 'frequent flyer' mileage points accumulated!
> 
> About the V-22; Boeing-Vertol is keen (as is the Pentagon); it will boost up the order-book. Its IN that is hesitant, they consider the cost of operation to be unviable. Plus their real attraction is EMALS which will then open the doors to the E-2D Hawkeye which is the real jewel of IN's wish-list. That has been talked about also and has been offered to the IN. But the IN wants to operate them from Carriers not shore Airfields; that cannot happen without EMALS. So lets see what turns out later.
> 
> Reading the above; you'll get clearer why the enthusiasm for the Osprey is low. IN is not heavily interested in it as it is. Only an AEW version may be of interest, if EMALS and Hawkeye does not come through. But the continuing surge of enthusiasm in the Pentagon for India says something.
> Plus the manufacturers themselves are lobbying the GOTUS. Many changes after 2008.
> And on their part; the Indian armed Forces, the Indian Navy included want spanking new stuff--not any _'hand-me-downs'_. Some where, all the interests can and do coincide.


well captain saab US is very keen to give both V-22 & E-2D & maybe E version aswell but the onli thing a bit hazzy is EMALS which US wants to share but some old gaurd in pentagon is doubtfull as it will mean/will be seen as US suporting india at expense of its relations with PAk-CHINA relations once some formalities regarding troop withdrawls in afghanistan settle down we just might hear the good news aswell on that front and at this moment since the future of UPA is under threat US officials and indians are playing a waiting game have some paiteince and that is not ruled owt till then

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## nomi007

PlanetWarrior said:


> Imran bhai, we should have it stop in Karachi to fetch you then it will make history ?


sweet dreams *Decade Of Trouble Ends With INS Vikramaditya*
just waste of money russian make really fool indians


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## Capt.Popeye

GURU DUTT said:


> well captain saab US is very keen to give both V-22 & E-2D & maybe E version aswell but the onli thing a bit hazzy is EMALS which US wants to share but some old gaurd in pentagon is doubtfull as it will mean/will be seen as US suporting india at expense of its relations with PAk-CHINA relations once some formalities regarding troop withdrawls in afghanistan settle down we just might hear the good news aswell on that front and at this moment since the future of UPA is under threat US officials and indians are playing a waiting game have some paiteince and that is not ruled owt till then


 
Thanks for the clarification about the E-2E which I erred about; yes that is the version on offer and the one that the IN wants because that will be huge leap up from the Ka-31 AEW Helos, both in capabilities and in range.

I agree with the rest of your post too. India is getting increasing leverage in Washington. India had some role in helping along the new moves at Washington-Teheran _rapprochement_.

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## akand bharat

Nan Yang said:


> Maybe not.
> 
> *India-Israel joint venture to manufacture missiles fails to take off*
> India-Israel joint venture to manufacture missiles fails to take off - Times Of India


 Mr "Nan Yang" Do Reasearch before posting any thing You Do Not have Any{Expert Opinion} on this Just Quoting Media reports which Sometimes are Just Story Made ups doesn,t prove any thing Barak-8 is already tested by Israel many times. 
Israel is installing its new Barak 8 anti-aircraft missile on its three 1,075 ton Saar 5 class corvettes. This should be done by the end of the year, which will mean the system will be ready for action over a year before its scheduled 2015 service date. Israel is believed to be rushing this installation because Russia has sent high speed Yakhont anti-ship missiles to Syria, and Barak 8 was designed to deal with this kind of threat. Barak 8 is also Israel’s first air defense system equal to the American Patriot (and similar systems like the U.S. Navy SM-2, Russian S-300, and European Aster 15). An improved Barak 8 would be able to shoot down short range ballistic missiles.

This is a joint Indian-Israeli project, some 70 percent of the development work has been done in Israel although India will be the major customer. The two countries evenly split the $350 million development cost. India is buying $1.1 billion worth of Barak 8. Each Barak system (missile container, radar, computers, and installation) costs about $24 million. Azerbaijan has also bought Barak 8. 

Back in 2009, Israel successfully tested its improved Barak 8 missile for the first time. The firing took place from a Saar 5 class corvette, against an incoming missile, which was successfully destroyed. The Barak 8 is a 275 kg (605 pound) missile with a 60 kg (132 pound) warhead and a range of 70 kilometers. The warhead has its own seeker that can find the target despite most countermeasures. The missiles are mounted in a 1.7 ton eight cell container (which requires little maintenance) and are launched straight up. The compact (for easy installation on a ship) fire control module weighs 1.3 tons.

The original Barak missiles cost about $1.6 million and weighed 98 kg (216 pounds) each with a 21.8 kg (48 pound warhead). The missiles are also mounted in an eight cell container. The radar system provides 360 degree coverage and the missiles can take down an incoming missile as close as 500 meters away from the ship. The missile has a range of ten kilometers and is also effective against aircraft. India has bought over $300 million worth of these systems.

Israel weapons have a solid reputation for reliability and effectiveness. Israeli success in several wars adds to the appeal of their armaments. U.S. and Israeli arms manufacturers often work together, which also gives Israel an edge when selling their equipment. The Barak has been exported to India, Chile, Singapore, and Venezuela.Source Shttps://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htada/20130807.aspx
Israeli Navy installs Barak-8 system to counter Russia’s Yakhont missiles
Naval Barak-8 Missiles, Israel - Naval Technology

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## GURU DUTT

Capt.Popeye said:


> Thanks for the clarification about the E-2E which I erred about; yes that is the version on offer and the one that the IN wants because that will be huge leap up from the Ka-31 AEW Helos, both in capabilities and in range.
> 
> I agree with the rest of your post too.* India is getting increasing leverage in Washington. India had some role in helping along the new moves at Washington-Teheran rapprochement.*



actualli that is the main game as US and Iran (and Afghans)are getting nervous with this new SA+PAK+CHINA freindship which is too much to handle at this time and as we share equal diplomatick and mutualli benficial relations with all the concerened parties ecept PAK US first wants india to help it get alternate route to central asia thru chabbar & afghanistan till then it wont do anything over zelous


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## IND151

*SEVERODVINSK:* The* INS Vikramaditya* will* sail* to *India* later this month* with a 183-member Russian 'guarantee team' on board*, that will remain in Karwar for a period of one year to smoothen the induction process and help the ship and crew settle into operating from home base.

*"The guarantee specialists will be in India for one year. We are currently negotiating contract obligations for the post-guarantee period*," Igor Ponomarev, vice president of Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation said yesterday at a press conference here in Severodvinsk. Ponomarev is the balding man whose hand appears to be touching the green microphone.

"*Russia is committed to being involved through the 40 year life of the Vikramaditya. We will provide design support as well*," says *Sergey Vlasov, DG Nevskoye Design Bureau*, and *personally one of the original designers* of the *Admiral Gorshkov*. He's the man looking down with a smile.

Vlasov is a genial sort of guy: smiling and gracious. I had a chance to chat with him about the entire experience. While Sevmash refurbished the ship, it was Vlasov's Nevskoye Bureau that inputted on how the entire refurbishment process was to be carried out. Without Nevskoye (Russia's oldest design bureau for surface ships), Sevmash was dead in the water.

"This has been the most complicated and unusual project ever for us. Vikramaditya isn't a repaired ship. *Everything except her hull is new*," he told me, repeating the one thing everyone in the city tells you about the ship.

Asked about challenges working with the Indian government and navy, Vlasov smiles. "When we were preparing documentation, the Indians would approach us every six months with queries. We were not contractually bound to share a lot of data demanded, but we did so because of the open and friendly relations between us."

He also points out he hopes the Russian Navy will take cues on crew comfort on what the Indian Navy asked for in the Vikramaditya. *"The Indian Navy asked for modifications that paid great attention to crew comfort. I hope the Russian Navy will learn some lessons from this!*"

I asked Vlasov about the Vikramaditya's conspicuous lack of air defence weapons. He shook his head and said, "The Indian Navy hasn't gotten back to us with a decision on this. It is not standard for a ship of this size and class to have no air defence weapons. But such ships don't travel alone. We have been verbally asked about integration of Israeli weapons with the systems on the Vikramaditya, but we've received no formal request. I anticipate some problems in the integration of Israeli weapons, but nothing we cannot resolve." Vlasov indicates that the integration of Kashtan and AKA 630 missile/gun systems can be integrated quickly if the Indian Navy takes a call.

Ponomarev of USC was candid on the Vikramaditya programme: "We underestimated the initial scope of work. There were difficult and serious discussions, in one case, six rounds in a single year. We should have been more careful and specific in identifying the scope of work. But it happens all over the world. It's a normal occurance in shipbuilding."

Chief commissioning officer for Sevmash on the Vikramaditya, Igor Leonov, the guy who knows perhaps more about what the ship can do now than anyone else, fends off blame. "A*fter 2004, a huge number of systems were asked for by the Indian side, which had to be accommodated. Many more modifications were demanded over what was contracted*."

The USC is rendering assistance on the Project 71 indigenous aircraft carrier Vikrant, being built at the Cochin Shipyard. "We are providing some help, and are ready to render any further assistance or technical help necessary, but a decision will need to be taken by India. I doubt the US or EU would share as much technology as we have and would."

Ponomarev reveals that Russia has offered India three more improved Talwar-class frigates, an offer currently under study by the Indian Navy.* A 10-year life extension of the Kilo-class submarines is also on the table* by the Zvezdochka Shipyard here in Severodvinsk.

Also had a brief chat with Igor Vilnit, DG of Rubin Design Bureau, the prestigious design house that has created Russia's formidable submarines. A man of few words, he said, "The Amur 1650 is on offer to India (for the Project 75I competition). I hope India will choose it."

Livefist: Vikramaditya Done, Russia Wants To Help With New Vikrant

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## IND151

[quote="UKBengali, post: 4949088, member: 39767"*] I have read that the aircraft carrier will normally carry 20 Mig-29K.*

In a war situation would be possible to increase this number to 30 to give a far more potent air-group capability?
[/quote]

I read that it will carry 12 Fulcrums and 6 to 8 Kamovs; remember it was designed as Heavy Aircraft Carrying Cruiser, not pure carrier.

@sancho @Capt.Popeye > Am I right? https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_cruiser&ei=0ZiIUoPzKMSQrQelp4CIAg&usg=AFQjCNFxw4y6aS3aOCg9bY4VRVEjonLlVA

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## sancho

GURU DUTT said:


> well captain saab US is very keen to give both V-22 & E-2D & maybe E version aswell but the onli thing a bit hazzy is EMALS which US wants to share but some old gaurd in pentagon is doubtfull as it will mean/will be seen as US suporting india



You have to differ here! When we say "US" is very keen there is the US defence industry, which indeed is keen on selling us whatever is possible, especially since their own government has to reduce spending and we are and will remain the worlds biggest importer.
However, the US government is not that keen in providing us arms and techs, especially not under the conditions we want (licence production under ToT, offsets, share or critical techs, no or limited EUM...). That's why the US arms and techs were not able to win in the big number competitions and why even the Javelin deal went into problems. Remember Boeing statements on providing India with Growler lite? Never confirmed by US government officials. Similarly LM officials stated that F35 is on offer for India and provided IN with infos, while US government officials remains uncertain about F35s for India.
IN might be keen on EMALS, but it actually would be a game changer in the relations between India and the US if we even get steam catapults, which they denied for IAC1. So getting catapults, no matter which one should have importance to make IAC2 capable, the problem is, what will be the price we have to pay in return, since I still say that it might be combined with the procurement of US fighters, which would be operationally highly limiting for IN. Also, by the fact that we have final proves now, that India is one of the most monitored countries in the world, by US intel should make IN think twice or even three times, before using US arms and techs! E-2 as a plattform for CATOBAR carriers would be great, but I would prefer a DRDO radar system, or at least an Israeli Phalcon system, to make us less dependent on the US, their laws and restictions, as well as possible bugs in the systems to monitor our operations.

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## sudhir007



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## Levina

INS Vikramaditya was spied upon by NATO aircraft and ship last year but the matter was hushed up : North, News - India Today


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## bloo

Russia and India are negotiating maintenance for ” INS Vikramaditya”









Later this month, the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya will travel to India on board will be Russia’s “guarantee a team” consisting of 183 people, according to livefistdefence.com November 17.
“The group remains on Karwar naval base, where the aircraft carrier will be assigned for a period of one year. Currently there are negotiations on contractual obligations after the expiration of the warranty period of service, “said vice-president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), Igor Ponomarev.
“Russia seeks to modernize the aircraft carrier during the entire 40-year life cycle. It was the most difficult and unusual project that we have ever carried. “Vikramaditya” is not just a renovated ship. It all new, except for housing, “said chief designer of the Nevsky PKB Sergei Vlasov, he was among the first engineers who designed TAVKR” Admiral Gorshkov “. Asked about the problems of working with the Government of India and the navy, he smiles: “When we were preparing the documentation every six months Indians approached us with inquiries, required a lot of information. We were not burdened by contractual obligations to the topic, but we went to the contacts because of the open and friendly relations between us. “ Indian Navy paid a lot of attention to improving the comfort of the service crew on board the “Vikramaditya”. “I hope that the Russian Navy will draw some lessons from our work on ergonomics,” he says.
Indian journalist asked Vlasov of “conspicuous absence” on the ship air defense systems, he shook his head and said, “Indian Navy did not appeal to us with this question. Ships of this class may not have their own means of defense, because carriers do not walk alone. We are asked about the possibility of the integration of Israel’s air defense system on the aircraft carrier, but did not receive the request. I foresee some problems with the integration of Israel’s air defense system, but it is not within our control. “ Vlasov said that if the Indian Navy will be asked to install the ship missile defense system “Chestnut” and MZAK AKA-630, they can be integrated quickly.
Ponomariov was frank: “We underestimated the initial work. Were difficult and serious discussion in one year there were six. But what happens in the world, it is normal practice in the shipbuilding industry. “
Responsible deliverer “Vikramaditya” Igor Leonov, probably knows more than any other thing you can do to “Vikramaditya” right now. “Since 2004, the Indian side is asleep asking us to integrate a huge number of new systems. There were a lot more than was required under the contract, “he says.
USC Chapter stands ready to assist in the construction of the Indian national carrier Vikrant (Project 71) at the shipyard in Cochin: “We are providing some assistance, ready to provide any additional, if requested by the Indian side. I doubt that the U.S. and the EU would like to share technologies, to the extent that we can provide. “ Ponomarev also noted that Russia offered India to buy three more advanced class frigate Talwar, the proposal being studied by the Indian side. On the table is also upgrading submarine Project 877 at the shipyard “asterisk”.
The journalist also spoke with the CEO of CDB ME “Rubin” (subs) Igor Vilnitom. Taciturn head of design department said that “we are in the tender invited India 75I submarine” Amur-1650 “, I hope your country will choose our submarines.”

Russia and India are negotiating maintenance for ” INS Vikramaditya” | idrw.org

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## cirr

China's CV 16 the LiaoNing is sailing for the choppy waters of the South China Sea shortly。

Rendezvous with INS Vikramaditya in the SCS possible if the Indian ship gets a move on？


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## SirHatesALot

cirr said:


> China's CV 16 the LiaoNing is sailing for the choppy waters of the South China Sea shortly。
> 
> Rendezvous with INS Vikramaditya in the SCS possible if the Indian ship gets a move on？


LiaoNing is commissioned?


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## longlong

BLACKGOLD said:


> LiaoNing is commissioned?



September 15, 2012.


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## longlong

Russia, India, China, none of them did have real aircraft carrier battle experiences.

Only USA and Japan imperial Navy really had it.


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## GURU DUTT

longlong said:


> Russia, India, China, none of them did have real aircraft carrier battle experiences.
> 
> Only USA and Japan imperial Navy really had it.


wrong india has more than 5 decades experience in opprating nad maintaing Aircraft carriers

even russia had been operating & maintaing aircraft carriers after they saw the use of aircraft carriers by americans in WW2, korean war and veitnam and your leoning /floating cassino/training ship is also a soviet/russian/ukrianean built ship

just becuase china has been new to this type of ships dosent means india is also in the same league we used owr carrier to its best potential in 1971 war and on neumrous occasions for disaster releif and policing owr sea lanes

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## SirHatesALot

longlong said:


> Russia, India, China, none of them did have real aircraft carrier battle experiences.
> 
> Only USA and Japan imperial Navy really had it.


We used aircraft carrier in 1971 war against Pakistan.


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## AnnoyingOrange

Height of fanboyisim...man they want Pakistanis first ever aircraft carrier to be 100000 ton diaplcement.


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## SRP

*1st Indian Pilot To Land On Vikramaditya*

Commodore Surendra Ahuja , who on September 3 became the first Indian pilot to be
'trapped' on the Vikramaditya in a MiG-29KUB. This wasn't a solo flight, however: Cmde. Ahuja was flying with MiG Test Pilot Sergei Rubnikov , who was captain of the aircraft during this flight. The first solo landing by an Indian pilot on the Vikramaditya is likely to take place in Feb/March next year by a pilot from the INAS 303 squadron. 

Cmde. Ahuja, currently posted to Naval HQ, was in Russia for 80 days (from early Aug to mid Oct
2013) for Aviation Facilities Complex Delivery Acceptance Trials - most of the flying happened north of Murmansk (north of the Arctic Circle) -- which is why pilots flying at the time had to use immersion suits. Cmde. Ahuja was also, incidentally, the first "new mould" Indian pilot certified in tailhook landings.

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## KRAIT

AnnoyingOrange said:


> Height of fanboyisim...man they want Pakistanis first ever aircraft carrier to be 100000 ton diaplcement.


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## Nassr

It represents nothing but a floating symbolism.


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## SRP

Nassr said:


> It represents nothing but a floating symbolism.



Yeah like floating casino !!


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## Nassr

desert warrior said:


> Yeah like floating casino !!



Yes, more or less the same. Betting your pride on floating symbolism.


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## longlong

GURU DUTT said:


> wrong india has more than 5 decades experience in opprating nad maintaing Aircraft carriers
> 
> even russia had been operating & maintaing aircraft carriers after they saw the use of aircraft carriers by americans in WW2, korean war and veitnam and your leoning /floating cassino/training ship is also a soviet/russian/ukrianean built ship
> 
> just becuase china has been new to this type of ships dosent means india is also in the same league we used owr carrier to its best potential in 1971 war and on neumrous occasions for disaster releif and policing owr sea lanes





BLACKGOLD said:


> We used aircraft carrier in 1971 war against Pakistan.



No, you dont have. 

AC2AC.


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## GURU DUTT

AnnoyingOrange said:


> Height of fanboyisim...man they want Pakistanis first ever aircraft carrier to be 100000 ton diaplcement.

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## HariPrasad

Nassr said:


> It represents nothing but a floating symbolism.




Still Pakistani members open a thread on PDF to discuss the danger of Indian AC to Pakistan Navy. Isn't it strange?

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## GURU DUTT

longlong said:


> No, you dont have.
> 
> AC2AC.



oh realli
Majestic-class aircraft carrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

INS Vikrant (R11) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






HMS Hermes (R12) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Capt.Popeye

Nassr said:


> Yes, more or less the same. Betting your pride on floating symbolism.


 
Better a _*floating symbolism*_ than _*the continually sinking feeling*_ that you have to live with !
Hey dude, are you done with all your _Meluhahahas_ ?
That seemed to represent the sum of all your achievements.
Did you read up on the _Gunas_ and _Chandravanshis_ and their role in the land of _Meluhas_ ?

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## Gessler



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## sancho

GURU DUTT said:


> oh realli
> Majestic-class aircraft carrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> INS Vikrant (R11) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HMS Hermes (R12) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




He means carrier vs carrier combat experience and he is right that only the US and Japan might have such experience, but it's a pointless argument, because that's only a small part of carrier operations. Basic attack of naval fleets and air defence are primary part of carrier exercises, so not having "actual" experience wouldn't make a French, Russian, British or Indian carrier less capable.


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## GURU DUTT

sancho said:


> He means carrier vs carrier combat experience and he is right that only the US and Japan might have such experience, but it's a pointless argument, because that's only a small part of carrier operations. Basic attack of naval fleets and air defence are primary part of carrier exercises, so not having "actual" experience wouldn't make a French, Russian, British or Indian carrier less capable.


well whats the point of carrier Vs carrier fight there are onli two nations who did it and that too 70 years or more back and techs have made such a long long journey since then

what is he hoping will one day indian and its enemy carrier will ramm into each other or is it there utter frustation and jealousy

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## sancho

That would be game changing mix!

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## HRK

Some pics of INS Vikramaditya ...... (hope nobody has share it earlier)

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## IBRIS




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## Chronos

Nassr said:


> It represents nothing but a floating symbolism.



Now, now. Don't go al green on the Indians


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## cloud_9

The story of Indian Navy's largest warship INS Vikramaditya

60 20 Minutes documentary by Shiv Aroor

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## Nassr

Ravi Nair said:


> Now, now. Don't go al green on the Indians



If reality is greener, I live in the prairies while you can float with your symbolism.


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## notsuperstitious

The burning behinds is not symbolic, its real and symptomatic.

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## IND151

jhungary said:


> Kitty Hawk





jhungary said:


> actually the deal regarding Kitty Hawk is a rumor, US never official offer Kitty Hawk to India nor would they consider. There are still too many Kitty Hawk technology in use today and US would unlikely sold or transfer Kitty Hawk so they can be studied by the Russian Eventually.....
> 
> Even if SecNav did offer, they more than likely just a spike to Russia and Congress would not pass the transfer anyway.
> 
> *Many people believe the Kitty Hawk Rumor is generated so India could squeeze a better deal with the Russian Carrier*. No intention on either side were ever consider the offer.



Kindly elaborate



akand bharat said:


> Yes "Barak 8" indo-israel But it will take time to be operational And will be fit in around 2017 till then it will Have to depend on *ASOR Russian electronic warfare system* fitted on the carrier. Those who participated said the ship's sensors picked up incoming aircraft at a distance of 350 km and, in some cases, even 400 km.*Hope that it will be equiped with Barak-8 as soon Possible*



Barak 8 needs to enter service soon; it has delayed INS Kolkata too


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## Capt.Popeye

Nassr said:


> If reality is greener, I live in the prairies while you can float with your symbolism.


 
Nope; you simply wallow in green slime. Your dreams outstrips your realities.

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## Nassr

Capt.Popeye said:


> Better a _*floating symbolism*_ than _*the continually sinking feeling*_ that you have to live with !
> Hey dude, are you done with all your _Meluhahahas_ ?
> That seemed to represent the sum of all your achievements.
> Did you read up on the _Gunas_ and _Chandravanshis_ and their role in the land of _Meluhas_ ?



It is indeed very very interesting that you mention the Gunas and the Chandravanshis as mentioned in the book written by Amish Tripathi. The story as explained in the book says that, the Chandravanshis and Nagas, a cursed race with deformities, are terrorists who attack the Meluhhas from the East – East of Meluhha landmass (Pakistan) is India. The Meluhha King seek help from the Gunas who come from Tibet (China) and one of the Gunas is known as Shiva. Incidentally, Shaivites who were monotheists also lived in Pakistan.

Therefore, what you infact are stating is that Pakistan is attacked by terrorists of a cursed race with deformities from India and Pakistan seeks help from China.

hahahahahahahah …….. I can not control my laughing.

Like I said, please float with your misplaced symbolism, as the Indian Navy even with its aircraft carriers is just like a woman who is all dressed up with nowhere to go.


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## chhota bheem

http://www.indiatoday.intoday.in/st...ier-indian-navy-russia-warships/1/325135.html

Shiv aroor has posted few photos on board INS Vikramaditya..and in one of the photos there is a mig in the hanger...is the AC carrying 1 or 2 migs during the journey to India.

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## anjaneyashruti

chhota bheem said:


> http://www.indiatoday.intoday.in/st...ier-indian-navy-russia-warships/1/325135.html
> 
> Shiv aroor has posted few photos on board INS Vikramaditya..and in one of the photos there is a mig in the hanger...is the AC carrying 1 or 2 migs during the journey to India.



Damn ! You are right. It's a spanking new Mig 29K  and it appears to be IN. Looks like Viki would be carrying at least 1 Mig 29K on its journey back. Possible 2 or more behind that poster/flag 

It would be a very practical and cheap way to transport new Mig 29 to India.

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## kaykay

How many aircrafts can Viki's inside hanger hold?? On upper deck it can place 12 mig-29Ks at hanger while 2 more on runways(so total 14) and 3-4 more helis.


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## kaykay

This pic shows that Viki's inside hanger can accommodate a maximum 12 Mig-29Ks and 5 Helicopters(actually it can accommodate 2 more aircrafts on its lift anyway). While upper deck is enough to carry 12 migs and 4 helis. Not bad eh??
www.globalbalita.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/INS-Vikramaditya-ex-Admiral-Gorshkov.2.jpg


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## anjaneyashruti

From this pic, it looks like Viki is carrying one Mig 29 and one helicopter.



kaykay said:


> How many aircrafts can Viki's inside hanger hold?? On upper deck it can place 12 mig-29Ks at hanger while 2 more on runways(so total 14) and 3-4 more helis.



It is supposed to hold 24 Mig 29K and 10 Helicopters i.e. a total of 34 Aircraft's.


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## anjaneyashruti

You can see the boats attached to the Viki in this pic. For Rescue, commando operation etc..

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## Contrarian

Nassr said:


> It is indeed very very interesting that you mention the Gunas and the Chandravanshis as mentioned in the book written by Amish Tripathi. The story as explained in the book says that, the Chandravanshis and Nagas, a cursed race with deformities, are terrorists who attack the Meluhhas from the East – East of Meluhha landmass (Pakistan) is India. The Meluhha King seek help from the Gunas who come from Tibet (China) and one of the Gunas is known as Shiva. Incidentally, Shaivites who were monotheists also lived in Pakistan.
> 
> Therefore, what you infact are stating is that Pakistan is attacked by terrorists of a cursed race with deformities from India and Pakistan seeks help from China.
> 
> hahahahahahahah …….. I can not control my laughing.
> 
> Like I said, please float with your misplaced symbolism, as the Indian Navy even with its aircraft carriers is just like a woman who is all dressed up with nowhere to go.


You do realize that Nagas are at the utter East border of India. 
They could not have traversed the whole breadth of India in those days for an attack.

Try to use sense else you end up reflecting rather badly on your country's education system, which is not well regarded in any case.

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## IND151

Livefist: Sweet Vid Of MiG-29KUB Night Take-Off From Vikramaditya


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## Roybot

anjaneyashruti said:


> Damn ! You are right. It's a spanking new Mig 29K  and it appears to be IN. Looks like Viki would be carrying at least 1 Mig 29K on its journey back. Possible 2 or more behind that poster/flag
> 
> It would be a very practical and cheap way to transport new Mig 29 to India.



Thats not Indian Navy Mig. Its just an old aircraft/prototype(aircraft number #311) owned by Mikoyan. Its been sitting in the hangar for quite some time, probably for hangar and deck operations training and trials. It doesn't fly, it was loaded on the Vikramaditya using a crane











The Indian Navy Mig 29K that are supposed to operate from Vikramaditya have already reached India couple of years back.

*INAS 303 Black Panthers, commissioned in May 2013












*

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## anjaneyashruti

Roybot said:


> Thats not Indian Navy Mig. Its just an old aircraft/prototype(aircraft number #311) owned by Mikoyan. Its been sitting in the hangar for quite some time, probably for hangar and deck operations training and trials. It doesn't fly, it was loaded on the Vikramaditya using a crane
> The Indian Navy Mig 29K that are supposed to operate from Vikramaditya have already reached India couple of years back.



That might be 311, but if it has a engine, it can fly. I am not sure why you are so certain it cannot fly. Once viki reach India, It will probably fly out of viki and go back to Russia.

There is nothing wrong in loading an aircraft onto the AC using a crane. The initial test is always take off. Carrier landing comes much later.

Lastly IN has ordered for 45 Mig 29 K/KUB, at last count only 20 has reached India. There is 25 yet to be shipped to India. Viki would have been the perfect vehicle to send it to India.


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## anjaneyashruti

Looks like the Russians were in love with this ship and did not want to let go. Cant say I blame them

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## Nassr

Contrarian said:


> You do realize that Nagas are at the utter East border of India.
> They could not have traversed the whole breadth of India in those days for an attack.
> 
> Try to use sense else you end up reflecting rather badly on your country's education system, which is not well regarded in any case.



This was quoted from the book written by Amish Tripathi, as referred by @Capt.Popeye.

Try and tickle the fleshy part of the goosefoot family lover's upper story and talk about the woolgathering of your own country's education system first.


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## anjaneyashruti

kaykay said:


> This pic shows that Viki's inside hanger can accommodate a maximum 12 Mig-29Ks and 5 Helicopters(actually it can accommodate 2 more aircrafts on its lift anyway). While upper deck is enough to carry 12 migs and 4 helis. Not bad eh??



Here is the modified plan of the hanger and deck with the anchoring points. In the Hanger there are two possible combinations .

1. 13 Fighter Jets and 6 Helicopters i.e 19 Aircrafts in the Hanger
2. 10 Fighter Jest with 13 Helicopters i.e. 23 Aircraft in the Hanger. 

The deck has 17 aircraft anchoring points. But comfortably hold 13 Fighter Jets and a maximum of 17 Fighter jets. 

Combine that with the Hanger capacity and we get two possible Maximum capacity combinations that can be used by the IN, depending on the situation 

1. 13 + 17 = 30 Fighter Jets and 6 Helicopters i.e. 36 Aircrafts.
2. 10 + 17 = 27 Fighter Jets and 13 Helicopters i.e. 40 Aircrafts. 

However if you consider a more relaxed load, it would be,

1. 13+13 = 26 Fighter Jets and 6 + 2 = 8 Helicopters i.e. 34 Aircrafts
2. 10 + 14 = 24 Fighter Jets and 13 + 1 = 14 Helicopters i.e. 38 Aircrafts.

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## kaykay

anjaneyashruti said:


> Here is the modified plan of the hanger and deck with the anchoring points. In the Hanger there are two possible combinations .
> 
> 1. 13 Fighter Jets and 6 Helicopters i.e 19 Aircrafts in the Hanger
> 2. 10 Fighter Jest with 13 Helicopters i.e. 23 Aircraft in the Hanger.
> 
> The deck has 17 aircraft anchoring points. But comfortably hold 13 Fighter Jets and a maximum of 17 Fighter jets.
> 
> Combine that with the Hanger capacity and we get two possible Maximum capacity combinations that can be used by the IN, depending on the situation
> 
> 1. 13 + 17 = 30 Fighter Jets and 6 Helicopters i.e. 36 Aircrafts.
> 2. 10 + 17 = 27 Fighter Jets and 13 Helicopters i.e. 40 Aircrafts.
> 
> However if you consider a more relaxed load, it would be,
> 
> 1. 13+13 = 26 Fighter Jets and 6 + 2 = 8 Helicopters i.e. 34 Aircrafts
> 2. 10 + 14 = 24 Fighter Jets and 13 + 1 = 14 Helicopters i.e. 38 Aircrafts.


True that. Anyway somewhere I read that its typical mig-29K load would vary from 20 to 24 and Helis from 8 to 10. In other words maximum 24 Mig-29Ks with 10 Helis(aew+asw) during war time while minimum 20 Mig-29K with 8 helis(aew+asw) during normal operations.
PS: not saying that it can't carry more.



anjaneyashruti said:


> Here is the modified plan of the hanger and deck with the anchoring points. In the Hanger there are two possible combinations .
> 
> 1. 13 Fighter Jets and 6 Helicopters i.e 19 Aircrafts in the Hanger
> 2. 10 Fighter Jest with 13 Helicopters i.e. 23 Aircraft in the Hanger.
> 
> The deck has 17 aircraft anchoring points. But comfortably hold 13 Fighter Jets and a maximum of 17 Fighter jets.
> 
> Combine that with the Hanger capacity and we get two possible Maximum capacity combinations that can be used by the IN, depending on the situation
> 
> 1. 13 + 17 = 30 Fighter Jets and 6 Helicopters i.e. 36 Aircrafts.
> 2. 10 + 17 = 27 Fighter Jets and 13 Helicopters i.e. 40 Aircrafts.
> 
> However if you consider a more relaxed load, it would be,
> 
> 1. 13+13 = 26 Fighter Jets and 6 + 2 = 8 Helicopters i.e. 34 Aircrafts
> 2. 10 + 14 = 24 Fighter Jets and 13 + 1 = 14 Helicopters i.e. 38 Aircrafts.


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## IND151




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## IND151

@sancho @Capt.Popeye > how many aircrafts viki can carry?



Abingdonboy said:


> They cost around $4-5 for the USN AFAIK. The Viky was never intended to cost $2.35 though, but then it seems both sides underestimated the amount of work involved. The IAC-1 should cost around $2BN USD for 40-42,000 ton ACC but a MUCH more modern one at that. From there the IAC-2 (of it is set to be 65,000+ tons really) should be quite a bit more especially if the IN is intending to put CATs on it. However the lessons learnt from IAC-1 should translate into some cost savings for all future IN ACCs.



How much aircrafts Viki can carry?


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## UKBengali

anjaneyashruti said:


> Here is the modified plan of the hanger and deck with the anchoring points. In the Hanger there are two possible combinations .
> 
> 1. 13 Fighter Jets and 6 Helicopters i.e 19 Aircrafts in the Hanger
> 2. 10 Fighter Jest with 13 Helicopters i.e. 23 Aircraft in the Hanger.
> 
> The deck has 17 aircraft anchoring points. But comfortably hold 13 Fighter Jets and a maximum of 17 Fighter jets.
> 
> Combine that with the Hanger capacity and we get two possible Maximum capacity combinations that can be used by the IN, depending on the situation
> 
> 1. 13 + 17 = 30 Fighter Jets and 6 Helicopters i.e. 36 Aircrafts.
> 2. 10 + 17 = 27 Fighter Jets and 13 Helicopters i.e. 40 Aircrafts.
> 
> However if you consider a more relaxed load, it would be,
> 
> 1. 13+13 = 26 Fighter Jets and 6 + 2 = 8 Helicopters i.e. 34 Aircrafts
> 2. 10 + 14 = 24 Fighter Jets and 13 + 1 = 14 Helicopters i.e. 38 Aircrafts.



Thank you very much for that post as it is highly informative!

I think that number 2 from the "more relaxed load" will be likely in peacetime

Number 1 may not be wise as it would allow only 8 helicopters. Maybe 4 would be dedicated to AEW, leaving only 4 for Anti-submarine and search and rescue missions.

With 24 Mig-29Ks and 14 helicopters on board, that allows a very good number of 24 Mig-29K fighters and also up to 10 helicopters that could be used for anti-submarine and search and rescue missions.

India has got itself a good deal as it has obtained both the aircraft carrier and air-wing for less than 4 billion dollars.

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## anjaneyashruti

UKBengali said:


> Thank you very much for that post as it is highly informative!
> 
> I think that number 2 from the "more relaxed load" will be likely in peacetime
> 
> Number 1 may not be wise as it would allow only 8 helicopters. Maybe 4 would be dedicated to AEW, leaving only 4 for Anti-submarine and search and rescue missions.
> 
> With 24 Mig-29Ks and 14 helicopters on board, that allows a very good number of 24 Mig-29K fighters and also up to 10 helicopters that could be used for anti-submarine and search and rescue missions.
> 
> India has got itself a good deal as obtained it has both the aircraft carrier and air-wing for less than 4 billion dollars.



In peace time IN may carry only 10 + 8 Jets and 10 Helicopter. Maybe even less.

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## kaykay

UKBengali said:


> Thank you very much for that post as it is highly informative!
> 
> I think that number 2 from the "more relaxed load" will be likely in peacetime
> 
> Number 1 may not be wise as it would allow only 8 helicopters. Maybe 4 would be dedicated to AEW, leaving only 4 for Anti-submarine and search and rescue missions.
> 
> With 24 Mig-29Ks and 14 helicopters on board, that allows a very good number of 24 Mig-29K fighters and also up to 10 helicopters that could be used for anti-submarine and search and rescue missions.
> 
> India has got itself a good deal as obtained it has both the aircraft carrier and air-wing for less than 4 billion dollars.


Though It can carry more than 10 helis along with 24 Mig-29Ks but I don't think that it would require more than that because lets not forget that in CBG there would be atleast 2 destroyers and 2 frigates and each of them would operate a ASW heli too.
So typical load would be 24 Mig-29K with 10 Helis(aew+asw) unless they feel that war is coming which is unlikely.

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## Sergi

UKBengali said:


> Thank you very much for that post as it is highly informative!
> 
> I think that number 2 from the "more relaxed load" will be likely in peacetime
> 
> Number 1 may not be wise as it would allow only 8 helicopters. Maybe 4 would be dedicated to AEW, leaving only 4 for Anti-submarine and search and rescue missions.
> 
> With 24 Mig-29Ks and 14 helicopters on board, that allows a very good number of 24 Mig-29K fighters and also up to 10 helicopters that could be used for anti-submarine and search and rescue missions.
> 
> India has got itself a good deal as it has obtained both the aircraft carrier and air-wing for less than 4 billion dollars.


I am sorry but this is first time I am seeing your rational ( DOESNT MEAN PRO INDIAN ) post. 

Nice calculations !!! but you should also count the rotary wings on remaining Carrier battle group. That would have couple of destroyers and frigates. So actual need of Helos on carrier might be low. 
Still I am not expert of any sort so @sancho @Capt.Popeye can do better

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## UKBengali

Sergi said:


> I am sorry but this is first time I am seeing your rational ( DOESNT MEAN PRO INDIAN ) post.
> 
> Nice calculations !!! but you should also count the rotary wings on remaining Carrier battle group. That would have couple of destroyers and frigates. So actual need of Helos on carrier might be low.
> Still I am not expert of any sort so @sancho @Capt.Popeye can do better




It is true that the escort ships could carry 4 helicopters - assuming 2 destroyers and 2 frigates

Anyway it is good to know that the aircraft carrier can carry 30 Mig-29K if India wanted to. 30 Mig-29ks are a truly formidable force and much more powerful than the BD air-force.

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## anjaneyashruti

UKBengali said:


> It is true that the escort ships could carry 4 helicopters - assuming 2 destroyers and 2 frigates
> 
> Anyway it is good to know that the aircraft carrier can carry 30 Mig-29K if India wanted to. 30 Mig-29ks are a truly formidable force and much more powerful than the BD air-force.



BD is almost completely covered by India from all sides. In any case unless BD discovers Huge Oil fields, India is unlikely to invade


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## Sergi

UKBengali said:


> It is true that the escort ships could carry 4 helicopters - assuming 2 destroyers and 2 frigates
> 
> Anyway it is good to know that the aircraft carrier can carry 30 Mig-29K if India wanted to. 30 Mig-29ks are a truly formidable force and much more powerful than the BD air-force.


Actually its 2 each. So will be 6/8. Carrier group is still not know for sure.

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## Roybot

anjaneyashruti said:


> That might be 311, but if it has a engine, it can fly. I am not sure why you are so certain it cannot fly. Once viki reach India, It will probably fly out of viki and go back to Russia.



I am sure, because of the condition that aircraft is in. A fully functional prototype would not be sitting like that out in the snow with all that garbage strewn about. And either case that Mig looks too worn out to be IN Mig 29



> *June 2010: to the deck of "Vikramaditiya" in Syevyerodvinsk shipyard (produced by Севмаш, Sevmash Plant) was delivered a "mockup" of MiG-29K to perform a test of ship's equipment.* It's the old first prototype of MiG-29K 9-31, bort number #311.



As I said, it just there to train for and trial the ground and deck operations.

Even the Kamov sitting in the hangar is just a mock up.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/401722197963993088

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/401721116256768001

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## Sergi

Roybot said:


> I am sure, because of the condition that aircraft is in. A fully functional prototype would not be sitting like that out in the snow with all that garbage strewn about. And either case that Mig looks too worn out to be IN Mig 29
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, it just there to train for and trial the ground and deck operations.
> 
> Even the Kamov sitting in the hangar is just a mock up.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/401722197963993088
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/401721116256768001


Another thread clearly said it has no MIGs only helos.
Strong as the Sun: Vikramaditya is like no other ship Indian Navy ever had

4/5th paragraph

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## Contrarian

Nassr said:


> This was quoted from the book written by Amish Tripathi, as referred by @Capt.Popeye.
> 
> Try and tickle the fleshy part of the goosefoot family lover's upper story and talk about the woolgathering of your own country's education system first.


Its a best seller in India.
I know what is written in the book. The implications you are drawing from whats written are wrong.

I do believe you also validated my statement about Pakistan's education system. And consequently the comprehension capabilities of the fine folks over there.

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## Nassr

Contrarian said:


> Its a best seller in India.
> I know what is written in the book. The implications you are drawing from whats written are wrong.
> 
> I do believe you also validated my statement about Pakistan's education system. And consequently the comprehension capabilities of the fine folks over there.



Confronted with your frivolity, you are again accusing me. I think it is your comprehension which is questioned here. Have you studied in RSS run shishu-mandir schools - so it seems.


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## Chronos

Nassr said:


> Confronted with your frivolity, you are again accusing me. I think it is your comprehension which is questioned here. Have you studied in RSS run shishu-mandir schools - so it seems.



Both Pakistanis and Indians have stupidity and jingoism in high supply.


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## sancho

IND151 said:


> How much aircrafts Viki can carry?



Like most reports said around 30 x aircrafts, including helicopters. When we look at the markings on the deck, we can see 4 x parkingspots in front of the Island for fighters (marked as TP1 - 4), while there are 8 behind (TP5 - 12) + 2 x take off spots (marked as TTP1 and TTP2):



















So a total of 12 x aircrafts + 2 at the take off spots "could" be used on deck, while it's questionable if the take off spots will be used during landings. Also, 2 of the parkingspots are next to the rear elevator and when used to park fighters, you basically can't use the elevator anymore, which makes it more likely to use them for helicopters, while 1 fighter could be placed at the elevator itself:










A lot of pics also show fuel bowser in front or behind the island, which means one of the parkingspots (TP4 or 5) might be free to park or move vehicles around. 

So all in all, of the 12 x spots on deck, 8 or 9 could be used for fighters, 2-3 for helicopters, while the rest of the aircrafts would be parked in the hangar and the more fighters you take, the lower the overall number of aircrafts. 

4 x AEW helicopters should be minimum, with the low endurance and detection capability, you might even use 2 at a time, during war times, which would require at least 3 in reserve at the carrier. Another 4-5 helicopters for utility, ASW roles, which leaves roughly 20 x fighters (+/- 2 depending on what aircrafts).



Sergi said:


> I am sorry but this is first time I am seeing your rational ( DOESNT MEAN PRO INDIAN ) post.
> 
> Nice calculations !!! but you should also count the rotary wings on remaining Carrier battle group. That would have couple of destroyers and frigates. So actual need of Helos on carrier might be low.
> Still I am not expert of any sort so @sancho @Capt.Popeye can do better



Good point! If we assume at least 2 x Destroyers and up to 2-3 x Frigats specially for the ASW role, that would add another 2 x helicopter per vessel and logically most of them should be ASW helicopters, which would give the carrier more space to use fighters instead of ASW helis.

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## anjaneyashruti

@sancho Your picture shows the smaller lift has parking anchors for 2 Migs. The forward lift has part of the runway painted on it.

So it is safe to assume of the total 14 place (12 TP + 2 TTp) on the TP (Top Parking ?) 3 might not be used for normal operations during peace time. i.e. a total of 11 Migs on top without blocking the lifts.







Now considering the hanger Load of either 13 or 10 Migs based on the Russian hanger layout, the Possible combination of Mig 29 carried is either 11 + 10 = 21 or 11 + 13 = 24.

Total Helis carried would be either 7 ASW (Ka-28) + 4 AEW (Ka-31) = 13 or 4 ASW (Ka-28) + 2 AEW (Ka-31) = 6

So the normal load of Viki becomes either 34 Aircraft's or 30 Aircraft's depending on the configuration.

In which case its maximum Full load during War becomes +3 (2TP + 1 TTP) i.e. either 37 (with 24 Migs) or 33 (with 27 Migs) Aircrafts.

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## Contrarian

Nassr said:


> Confronted with your frivolity, you are again accusing me. I think it is your comprehension which is questioned here. Have you studied in RSS run shishu-mandir schools - so it seems.


No Pal.
Unlike Pakistan we dont have mandatory madrassa and madrassa like classes.

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## Capt.Popeye

Contrarian said:


> Its a best seller in India.
> I know what is written in the book. The implications you are drawing from whats written are wrong.
> 
> I do believe you also validated my statement about Pakistan's education system. And consequently the comprehension capabilities of the fine folks over there.


 
It is a best-seller in the Fiction Category, as a work of sheer Fantasy!!
Just like the stuff being dished out here by our own _"Meluhahaha Man" _AKA Nassr.
When he gets reminded of that _poppy-cock;_ then he reverts to the fall-back tactic that is used so often from the other side. _Very Pavlovian !_

_Ah; "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds"........_

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## anjaneyashruti

Ever wonder how Big the Vikramaditya was ? Here is something that will give you a sense of proportion

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## Jai_Hind

Livefist: VIDEO: Ka-27 Night Trials On Vikramaditya


Livefist: EXCLUSIVE VIDEO: INS Vikramaditya Firing Trials


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## IND151

Livefist: EXCLUSIVE VIDEO: INS Vikramaditya Firing Trials



anjaneyashruti said:


> @sancho Your picture shows the smaller lift has parking anchors for 2 Migs. The forward lift has part of the runway painted on it.
> 
> So it is safe to assume of the total 14 place (12 TP + 2 TTp) on the TP (Top Parking ?) 3 might not be used for normal operations during peace time. i.e. a total of 11 Migs on top without blocking the lifts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now *considering the hanger Load of either 13 or 10 Migs based on the Russian hanger layout, the Possible combination of Mig 29 carried is either 11 + 10 = 21 or 11 + 13 = 24*.
> 
> Total Helis carried would be either 7 ASW (Ka-28) + 4 AEW (Ka-31) = 13 or 4 ASW (Ka-28) + 2 AEW (Ka-31) = 6
> 
> So the *normal load of Viki becomes either 34 Aircraft's or 30 Aircraft's *depending on the configuration.
> 
> In which case its maximum Full load during War becomes +3 (2TP + 1 TTP) i.e. either 37 (with 24 Migs) or 33 (with 27 Migs) Aircrafts.



Thanks for info.

BTW what is the source for this image? Official?


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## IND151

Sergi said:


> If I may answer.....
> 
> Dude everything is NOT on paper always. eg India doesn't have S-300 officially , Israel isn't a nuclear state and so on
> 
> 
> Many things are kept under carpet but some got leaked and always denied by all parties.
> As @Capt.Popeye said Yes Kitty hawk was offereed by USA with air elements. That doent mean it was going to be transffered with the Nimitz class techs. And would have strings attached too. Some also say that it was offered so that F-18 could get a boost in MMRCA.
> 
> It was rejected by IN
> - couldnt afford the total package.
> - IN was/is not happy with the strings.
> - TOT would have been zero so have to have depend on US for everything.
> - *cost of operating a N-Carrier is more than conventional one *
> 
> If you look back to 2008 its the same period when Bush became pro-India and was the same time when Nuclear deal was being dissucssed. India is only country to have that ( for many reasons ) with USA backing it up.
> 
> How hard is it for US to decommission and water down a carrier to offer it to India ???
> And Russia getting hands on US techs is total BS then why in world US sell india C-17/C-130/Apache/P-8Is ??? Are they outdated ???
> 
> 2008 was the time when US-Pak relations were on the verge rupture. So all things were possible and it would have been worth billions of dollar deal. So it was total gain for US .... Even more than India.




?????? KH is conventionally powered.


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## Sergi

IND151 said:


> ?????? KH is conventionally powered.


You are asking me or telling me 

Matter of fact another member asked the same question and I replied him.
It was about Nimitz class Tech that can be used from kitty. One would use it in N-ACC ( best in class ) thats why that was the separate point otherwise point 1 and 4 are the same. Cost.

I should have be more brief while writing that


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## sancho

anjaneyashruti said:


> @sancho Your picture shows the smaller lift has parking anchors for 2 Migs. The forward lift has part of the runway painted on it.



It doesn't, that are the markings of TP 7 and 8 and shows how far a fighter would reach over the lift, which is why it couldn't be used if these spots are blocked by fighters:






This model shows all 12 parkingspots, the 2 take off spots, as well as all helicopter take off and landing spots. TP 7 and 8 are next to the rear lift and the space actually was used for missile launchers at the Gorshkov, which is why the space now is limited and why fighters would reach over the lift. So although it is possible to use these 12 spots for fighters in theory, practically it doesn't make sense to block the lift, which makes it more likely to use helicopters there.
TP 4 and 5 most likely will be used to park or move vehicles on the deck:





(Vikramaditya left, Viraat right)

So practically you might have TP1 to 4, 6 and 9 to 12 for fighters, TP5 free for vehicles, TP7 and 8 for helicopters. The internal 




anjaneyashruti said:


> Now considering the hanger Load of either 13 or 10 Migs based on the Russian hanger layout



As I showed, the number on the deck spots is far lower than the old plans (which are not even showing the deck changes) or your earlier calculations showed (12 at max instead of 17) and practically the number of fighters on deck might be even less. The hangar size / layout needs to be seen as well, I don't think the fighters and helicopters would be parked in such a mixed config, where you have to move 2 fighters around, just to get 2 helicopters out. However 10 - 12 fighters + some helicopters seems to be possible, which still brings the total number of aircrafts only around 30.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> while it's questionable if the take off spots will be used during landings.
> 
> .


Sorry if a silly question but I didnt understand this. 
If carrier is expecting a fighter to land wouldnt it be the same fighter that took off from the deck from the said take off spot !!!


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Sorry if a silly question but I didnt understand this.
> If carrier is expecting a fighter to land wouldnt it be the same fighter that took off from the deck from the said take off spot !!!



No, you can have fighters ready for take of in A2A configs, while another one in tanker config comes back from it's mission, but simultaneous take offs and landings are not possible with this STOBAR config and keeping the fighters in take off position could be dangerous if something goes wrong with the landing.


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## kaykay

@sancho according to Prasun sen gupta, It's typical load would be 20 Mig-29Ks + 8 Helos(4 aew+4 asw) during normal operations. Though theoratically it can carry more.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> No, you can have fighters ready for take of in A2A configs, while another one in tanker config comes back from it's mission, but simultaneous take offs and landings are not possible with this STOBAR config and keeping the fighters in take off position could be dangerous if something goes wrong with the landing.


No i didnt mean that.
Suppose we are having 15 jets (?) on deck and 1/2 on said take off( short /long) spot. If carrier need to send any jet wouldnt it be the jet on takeoff spot ??? So first two in air doing their mission while if we need to send more in air the other can follow them. Or just those 2 are sufficient rest will stay as is and those two return back for landing.


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## anjaneyashruti

sancho said:


> It doesn't, that are the markings of TP 7 and 8 and shows how far a fighter would reach over the lift, which is why it couldn't be used if these spots are blocked by fighters:



Which is what I meant. I was in a hurry so was careless about my language.



sancho said:


> This model shows all 12 parkingspots, the 2 take off spots, as well as all helicopter take off and landing spots. TP 7 and 8 are next to the rear lift and the space actually was used for missile launchers at the Gorshkov, which is why the space now is limited and why fighters would reach over the lift. So although it is possible to use these 12 spots for fighters in theory, practically it doesn't make sense to block the lift, which makes it more likely to use helicopters there.
> TP 4 and 5 most likely will be used to park or move vehicles on the deck:
> 
> So practically you might have TP1 to 4, 6 and 9 to 12 for fighters, TP5 free for vehicles, TP7 and 8 for helicopters. The internal



Viki is unlikely to sport Heli on the Top. That would probably be outsourced to the carrier support group which can do the job just as efficiently. It would be far more sensible to keep the top stacked with Jets.

The Fuel truck and movers will probably be parked behind the Island. If you observe there is enough space between aircrafts parked in the front of the Island for the movers to pass easily. I suspect this space is provided for such operations.

In any case the heli's can use the forward elevator which can accommodate 2 Helis together if required.



sancho said:


> As I showed, the number on the deck spots is far lower than the old plans (which are not even showing the deck changes) or your earlier calculations showed (12 at max instead of 17) and practically the number of fighters on deck might be even less. The hangar size / layout needs to be seen as well, I don't think the fighters and helicopters would be parked in such a mixed config, where you have to move 2 fighters around, just to get 2 helicopters out. However 10 - 12 fighters + some helicopters seems to be possible, which still brings the total number of aircrafts only around 30.



The hanger layout is unlikely to be changed as it is not easy to accommodate such changes. We have no idea if the smaller elevator has been rated to lift Mig, but if you observe closely a Mig can just about snugly fit in it.

With the top carrying 11 Migs and time required for launching all of them, there will be enough time to move around aircrafts in the hanger to reach the lift. However if you observe, that would not be required if the smaller elevator is rated to carry heavier load.

In any case all this is speculation so no point it going round in circles trying to prove otherwise.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> If carrier need to send any jet wouldnt it be the jet on takeoff spot ???



If they are meant to take off, of course, but the point was, that we can't take these take off positions as parking spots like the other 12 TP spots. anjaneyashruti included the take off positions for the total number of aircrafts and that is not likely.



Sergi said:


> So first two in air doing their mission while if we need to send more in air the other can follow them



Exactly, but as I said, they might not wait at the take off positions, but at the parking spots to keep the runway free for landing of other aircrafts.



kaykay said:


> @sancho according to Prasun sen gupta, It's typical load would be 20 Mig-29Ks + 8 Helos(4 aew+4 asw) during normal operations. Though theoratically it can carry more.



I think of a similar mix, although we still wait and see what type of aircrafts really will be used. Mig 29K and Ka 31 is clear so far, Ka 27 and Sea Kings possible, but not useful use 2 different aircrafts in the same roles. Naval Dhruvs or Cheetaks could be used for utility roles and might not need too much space. 



anjaneyashruti said:


> Viki is unlikely to sport Heli on the Top. That would probably be outsourced to the carrier support group which can do the job just as efficiently. It would be far more sensible to keep the top stacked with Jets.



For ASW yes, but not for AEW, SAR, or utility roles which every aircraft carrier has. So even if it wouldn't carry a single ASW helicopter, it needs at least an AEW helicopter at deck in case of a problem with one that is on a mission and one for SAR operations. 



anjaneyashruti said:


> If you observe there is enough space between aircrafts parked in the front of the Island for the movers to pass easily. I suspect this space is provided for such operations.



That's because the TP4 spot was free, if 4 x aircrafts are parked in the front, you can't move vehicles from the back around. Infact to move the aircrafts, you already need them in the front! 



anjaneyashruti said:


> In any case all this is speculation so no point it going round in circles trying to prove otherwise.



That's why I don't consider these plans or graphics as reliable, since nearly all of them that we have seen in the last few years were different. The marking in the decks and the parking positions however, can be seen now at the pics and videos we have and clearly are the most reliable sources for the deck config.

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## Gessler

Interesting image : Two helicopters, a Ka-27 ASW and a Ka-31 AEW, being
raised up to the flight deck on the same lift at the same time -

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## FalconsForPeace

*New Carrier Steaming to India Without Air Defense System*




_India's aircraft carrier acquired from Russia will initially lack its air defense system, based on the Barak-8 missile. (Georges Seguin/Wikimedia)_

After a five-year delay in acquiring a Russian aircraft carrier, the Indian Navy will have to wait further before the vessel is equipped with its proposed air defense system.

The Indo-Israeli joint project for the Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LRSAM) system for the carrier has been hit by technical snags, meaning the Admiral Gorshkov, now renamed Vikramaditya, which was formally received by Defence Minister A.K. Antony Nov. 15, will arrive in India without an air defense system. The system is based on the Israeli Barak missile.

An Indian Navy official admitted the carrier initially will have no air defense system. The carrier, however, will have an advanced electronic warfare jamming system and will be protected as part of a carrier group, the official added. It also will be equipped with an AK-630 rapid-fire gun system to destroy incoming missiles and aircraft.

“The main weaponry of the ship would be the ship-based aircraft, i.e. aircraft and helicopters with their integral weapons,” an Indian Navy spokesman, P.V. Satish, told Defense News.

However, a Navy source said the weaponization would include the fitting of a variety of guns, primarily of 20mm and 30mm.

The LRSAM, which is being jointly developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), is facing technical snags, an Indian Navy spokesman said, but gave no details. The joint development program was conceived in 2007, and LRSAM was to be ready for the Vikramaditya in 2014.

The LRSAM will have a multifunctional acquisition radar, one 3-D S-band guidance radar, one command-and-control system and four launchers, each carrying eight missiles.

IAI can independently install an air defense system, but there have been disputes regarding technology transfer.

The Indian Defence Ministry said it has expressed its concern to Israel about the delay. IAI executives here declined to comment.

New Carrier Steaming to India Without Air Defense System | Defense News | defensenews.com

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## sancho

Gessler said:


> Interesting image : Two helicopters, a Ka-27 ASW and a Ka-31 AEW, being
> raised up to the flight deck on the same lift at the same time -



Another view from the same lift:

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## FOX80

SOURCE: RIA Novosti






India’s Vikramaditya aircraft carrier left a shipyard in northern Russia on Tuesday, embarking on a long voyage to its permanent base half way across the world, the Sevmash shipbuilder said.

The Vikramaditya, a refurbished Russian carrier known as the Admiral Gorshkov, will make a short stop for refueling in the White Sea then proceed to the port of Murmansk, where the warship will stay for several days stocking up on fuel and other supplies before heading to a naval base in Karwar in southwestern India.

The aircraft carrier, which was handed over to the Indian navy on November 16, will be accompanied by an Indian tanker and a frigate on the first leg of the voyage, which is expected to take about two months.

According to Sevmash, there are some 180 Russian specialists on board the warship who are tasked with monitoring the vessel’s overall performance and the on-site training of the Indian crew, as well as providing assistance in fixing any possible glitches in the operation of the ship’s systems, including air conditioning.

Part of the Russian personnel will stay on the Vikramaditya after its arrival in India in order to provide maintenance services under a one-year warranty agreement, followed by a servicing contract for a period of up to 40 years, the Sevmash said.

The Vikramaditya carrier, which is now five years past its original 2008 delivery date, was supposed to have been handed over to India in December 2012, but last year’s sea trials revealed that the vessel’s boilers were not fully functional.

The ship’s refitting has lurched from one crisis to another since India and Russia signed a $947 million deal in 2004 for its purchase and refurbishment. Delivery has been delayed three times, pushing up the cost to $2.3 billion, sparking acrimony between Moscow and New Delhi over the contract.

The Indian Navy has already taken delivery of some of the carrier’s MiG-29K naval fighter aircraft, which were completed before their parent ship was ready for sea.

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## KRAIT

Ghar aaja Pardesi tujhko Desh bulaye re....


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## Manvantaratruti

FalconsForPeace said:


> IAI can independently install an air defense system, but there have been disputes regarding technology transfer.



After the Russians screwed us over the Viki price escalation, Indian defense and MoD has now acquired a reputation of being world class dunce. 

Every nation is now blackmailing us for more money or denying us Technology Transfer. Russia for PakFa, France for Rafale, Israel for Barak 8. 

Ironically India is 50 % partner in the Barak 8 program and we only went into partnership to gain the technology. 

When will India learn to stop begging and start investing in our own future. ? You guess is as good as mine.


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## Sergi

Manvantaratruti said:


> After the Russians screwed us over the Viki price escalation, Indian defense and MoD has now acquired a reputation of being world class dunce.
> 
> Every nation is now blackmailing us for more money or denying us Technology Transfer. Russia for PakFa, France for Rafale, Israel for Barak 8.
> 
> Ironically India is 50 % partner in the Barak 8 program and we only went into partnership to gain the technology.
> 
> When will India learn to stop begging and start investing in our own future. ? You guess is as good as mine.


Can you give me any link for problems in TOT of Barak-8 ???
Thanks in advance


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## Manvantaratruti

Sergi said:


> Can you give me any link for problems in TOT of Barak-8 ???
> Thanks in advance



It is just there in the post I quoted. Did you not see it ?


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## Sergi

Manvantaratruti said:


> It is just there in the post I quoted. Did you not see it ?


Ok. Found it.


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## Manvantaratruti

Sergi said:


> Yes I see that poster write it but he isnt online. And you too seem pretty convincing I though you too are aware of that. I didn't know you were just following his lead. He may be wrong. ok I will ask him
> 
> @FalconsForPeace : Can you give me some link on problems in TOT for Barak-8 ? Thanks in advance



Listen dude. That guy has just copy pasted the article. The link is at the bottom of the article. 

I have posted the relevant piece of the article and commented on it. Yikes.


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## Sergi

Manvantaratruti said:


> Listen dude. That guy has just copy pasted the article. The link is at the bottom of the article.
> 
> I have posted the relevant piece of the article and commented on it. Yikes.


Got it. You cropped the part from article.


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## sancho

Manvantaratruti said:


> After the Russians screwed us over the Viki price escalation, Indian defense and MoD has now acquired a reputation of being world class dunce.
> 
> Every nation is now blackmailing us for more money or denying us Technology Transfer. Russia for PakFa, France for Rafale, Israel for Barak 8.
> 
> Ironically India is 50 % partner in the Barak 8 program and we only went into partnership to gain the technology.
> 
> When will India learn to stop begging and start investing in our own future. ? You guess is as good as mine.



It's one thing to be a 50% partner by ownership, but a whole different point to be a 50% partner in development! So as long as we don't impove our base R&D and industrial capability, we will always be the weaker part of such developments, that's why we need both, indigenous developments at the low end (long term perspective for the improvement of the industry) + partnerships at the high end (short to mid term developments, to increase our defence capabilities).


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## Manvantaratruti

sancho said:


> It's one thing to be a 50% partner by ownership, but a whole different point to be a 50% partner in development! So as long as we don't impove our base R&D and industrial capability, we will always be the weaker part of such developments, that's why we need both, indigenous developments at the low end (long term perspective for the improvement of the industry) + partnerships at the high end (short to mid term developments, to increase our defence capabilities).



You are stating the obvious. However there is something called a contract and others are expected to honor it, irrespective of how strong or weak our development is.

If we are unable or too weak to enforce any contract, everybody is going to walk all over us.

In Barak 8 we were 50% development partners with agreement to transfer our respective technology to the other. This is what the Israelis are backing out from. The reason ? because they know they can get away with it. The Russians showed them how.


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## Yeti

Needs to be a thread on just pics of her


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## Gessler

MiG-29Ks before receiving IN paint scheme and insignia.


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## Abingdonboy

Previously, the date of dispatch of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier to its permanent base was Saturday, November 30, but considering the extent of the ship’s readiness, its exit in the sea was moved *a few days ahead a*t the request of the Indian crew’s commander Commodore Suraj Berry.

Something actually earlier than planned + Vikramditya=  

INS Vikramaditya begins voyage to India | Russia & India Report



Gessler said:


> MiG-29Ks before receiving IN paint scheme and insignia.


Nope, all IN MIG-29K/KUB were new-build, none were used in testing/evaluation off the flight deck of the Viky.

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## Gessler

Abingdonboy said:


> Nope, all IN MIG-29K/KUB were new-build, none were used in testing/evaluation off the flight deck of the Viky.



Thanks for info.


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## Dash

Abingdonboy said:


> Previously, the date of dispatch of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier to its permanent base was Saturday, November 30, but considering the extent of the ship’s readiness, its exit in the sea was moved *a few days ahead a*t the request of the Indian crew’s commander Commodore Suraj Berry.
> 
> Something actually earlier than planned + Vikramditya=



Or the commodore wants to come home early?


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## bloo

EXCLUSIVE VIDEO: INS Vikramaditya Firing Trials






Livefist: EXCLUSIVE VIDEO: INS Vikramaditya Firing Trials

PC-2 - Passive jamming (chaff and counter infrared).

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## sancho

Dash said:


> Or the commodore wants to come home early?



He might have enough of the cold weather. 


P.S. Btw, we have seen the Russians integrating different Russian weapons into the Migs. We also have seen the IN Mig with them, or even an Elta self protection jammer, but did anybody have seen the Litening being integrated and what about other weapons? Sudharshan should be added in the long run, but Griffin LGBs, or some other Israeli weapons?


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## Gessler



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## akshay gehlot

Gessler said:


>


 where are the escorts.? 
looks like the ship in jurassic park 2


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## Gessler

akshay gehlot said:


> where are the escorts.?
> looks like the ship in jurassic park 2



This pic is from last year.


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## DacterSaab

Abingdonboy said:


> Gessler said: ↑
> MiG-29Ks before receiving IN paint scheme and insignia.
> Nope, all IN MIG-29K/KUB were new-build, none were used in testing/evaluation off the flight deck of the Viky.



I'm sure no IN MiG-29s were used for testing the capabilities of Viky with respect to it's ability to launch and land the aircraft, but I'm sure all IN MiG-29s were tested for taking-off and subsequently landing on the carrier. Cause I remember 1 of our MiG-29s crashed during tests and was later rightfully replaced by Russians


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## Dash

sancho said:


> He might have enough of the cold weather.
> 
> 
> P.S. Btw, we have seen the Russians integrating different Russian weapons into the Migs. We also have seen the IN Mig with them, or even an Elta self protection jammer, but did anybody have seen the Litening being integrated and what about other weapons? Sudharshan should be added in the long run, but Griffin LGBs, or some other Israeli weapons?



Probably..I didnt find a pic showing that POD with Migs, but I know that it is the POD, Migs will use. I dont see them using other Israeli weapons for A2A or A2G. Sudarshan, as you said is for future..

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## bloo

sancho said:


> He might have enough of the cold weather.
> 
> 
> P.S. Btw, we have seen the Russians integrating different Russian weapons into the Migs. We also have seen the IN Mig with them, or even an Elta self protection jammer, but did anybody have seen the Litening being integrated and what about other weapons? Sudharshan should be added in the long run, but Griffin LGBs, or some other Israeli weapons?



Will they even be able to carry littening pods or Elta jammers with all the other weapon systems on board?


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## Black Widow

AnnoyingOrange said:


> Height of fanboyisim...man they want Pakistanis first ever aircraft carrier to be 100000 ton diaplcement.




This is CVN78 Ford class Supercarrier of USA...


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## trident2010

Is there any plans of integrating Brahmos / Aakash on Vikramaditya?


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## kaykay

trident2010 said:


> Is there any plans of integrating Brahmos / Aakash on Vikramaditya?


Brahmos is not required as other frigates/destroyers will have that while Akash's range is just 30km and its bulky too so won't be installed rather Viki will get LR-SAM with 70/120 KM range Sams.

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## Abingdonboy

DacterSaab said:


> I'm sure no IN MiG-29s were used for testing the capabilities of Viky with respect to it's ability to launch and land the aircraft, but I'm sure all IN MiG-29s were tested for taking-off and subsequently landing on the carrier. Cause I remember 1 of our MiG-29s crashed during tests and was later rightfully replaced by Russians


They were NOT tested on the Viky. They were flight tested in Russia, yes- as all such products are.


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## cloud_9

@Capt.Popeye What are these random flags,some of them were pretty similar to country flags.Significance?

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## Roybot

cloud_9 said:


> @Capt.Popeye What are these random flags,some of them were pretty similar to country flags.Significance?



International maritime signal flags - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## cloud_9

Roybot said:


> International maritime signal flags - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Bangladeshis stole their flag design from the Inidan ICS flag which means Bangledesh is up for taking


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## Capt.Popeye

cloud_9 said:


> @Capt.Popeye What are these random flags,some of them were pretty similar to country flags.Significance?


 

They are "Signal Flags". There is one flag for each letter of the alphabet viz. A-Z, just as there is one for each numeral. These flags go back a long way; as a means of inter-ship communication before the advent of radio. Ships in visual range of each other communicated by means of these flags. Codes were constructed around these flags, single-letter (1 Flag) double-letter (2 flags one above the other) triple-letter and so on. This form of communication continued even after the advent of radio, because they were more secure than radio. In the sense that anybody with a radio-set could listen in to a transmission. Here one had to be in visual range, which could be hazardous to one's own health!

Another means of communication between ships was by the use of Semaphore which involved the use of outstretched arms in various angles with a pair of special flags. Anybody here who has been a Boy-Scout will know about this. But this is probably not used in most Navies now except at very close range like _Jackstay_.

Still another form of communication in close range (WVR !!) is the use of Flashing Lamps. This uses the Morse code where a short-flash is a "Dot" and a long flash is a "Dash" in Morse. In this case, there is both Plain Language and Code used. Even in these days of Secure/Encrypted Radio Comms. Flag and other traditional means of communication are in use between Ships at Sea in Formation. 
One difference between Flag-Signalling and Signalling by lamp is that flags can be seen (and read) by all in view, while the Aldis-Lamp can be read only by the intended recipient, unless one uses a flashing 'all-round' lamp at the mast-head.

Now; Flags have another significance on ships. As a part of the pageantry associated with special occasions. That is what we saw in the context of the Commissioning Ceremony of INS Vikramaditya. These flags were used to _"Dress Ship"_ in _"Rainbow Fashion"._ This is a form of Naval Decoration of a ship. Where the flags are strung out from the _"Stem/Bow"_ of the ship to its highest point on the Mast and similarly from the _"Quarter/Fantail/Stern"_ of the ship to the Mast-head again.
These flags are flown in addition to the other Flags that will be flown: in this case; a smaller Ensign at the _Jackstaff_ (Bow), the Large Ensign at the _Ensign-Staff_ (stern), The National Flag at the Yard-Arm on the Main Mast, the Admiral's Flag (here the CNS) at the Main Mast, and the Russian National Flag on a Yard-Arm as _Courtesy Flag_ (since the ceremony in Russia). There is a rather elaborate code of usage of all flags on a ship which is known as _Flag-Etiquette_ which is observed stringently.

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## sancho

bloo said:


> Will they even be able to carry littening pods or Elta jammers with all the other weapon systems on board?



There are pics with the Elta jammers as I said, which actually is a strange view, since the new Ks and the upgraded UPGs should have such jammers integrated into the airframe and shouldn't wast hardpoints for that.
The targeting pods would be added to the centerline station, since the Mig doesn't have a dedicated pod station. From a comparison I once made to show possible weapon loads of N-LCA and Mig 29K:

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## kirankumar299

Found his russian documentary on INS Vikramaditya. Watch it on youtube with captions on and caption translation to English.

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## Gessler



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## sancho

Gessler said:


>



Interesting pic, that shows another parking position next to the take off position. With wings folded a Mig should not be a problem during arrested landings anymore, so 14 x parking spots in total, while some of them are size or operationally restricted.

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## sancho

Deepak class tanker in Russia to support Vikis journey:









Mig during take off:





Mig during landing:





Hangar and rear lift:






Migs at TP 6, 9 and 11:






Good to see how the Mig at TP 7 reaches over the lift with the cockpit section:

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## bloo

*India's Vikramaditya aircraft carrier casts anchor off Murmansk *




© Решетчатый настил, металлический решетки, винтовые лестницы, проф настил, прессованный настил, ПВЛ, ячеистые решетки - ЗАО "Фирма "Солид"

*The Indian Navy's Vikramaditya aircraft carrier cast anchor off in the Kola Bay off Russia's northern city of Murmansk on Friday, December 6.*

The aircraft carrier had run into a storm in the Barents Sea and had to make a stop in the Kola Bay where two other Indian ships, frigate Trikand and tanker Deepak, had dropped anchors earlier. The ships are expected to stay until December 8 and then leave Russia's territorial waters with the Vikramaditya leading the way.

Russia handed over the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier to the Indian Navy on November 16.

After a complete overhaul, the ship got a new flight deck and a ski-jump ramp for MiG-29K jet fighters, navigation, radar, communication and flight control systems, other equipment and units. Russia also trained an Indian crew of about 1,500 personnel and will build infrastructure for the aircraft carrier in the Indian Ocean. The ship is expected to operate for 25-30 years.

Its full water displacement is 45,000 tonnes, maximum length is 283.5 metres and maximum width is 59.8 metres (increased by 8.8 metres from the original ship). The ship can carry 30 aircraft, including MiG-29K het fighters and Ka-27 and Ka-31 helicopters. Its crew is about 2,000 members.

Russia's Severodvinsk-based defence shipyard Sevmash in the northern Arkhangelsk region, which upgraded the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier, will also provide post-warranty services for the ship for the next 20 years.

After the transfer of the ship to the Indian Navy, Sevmash engineers and specialists will provide warranty maintenance services for the aircraft carrier for one year.

During the three-month sea trials the ship demonstrated excellent seaworthiness, speed of 27.9 knots (about 52 kilometres per hour) and manoeuvrability. MiG specialists praised the ski-jump ramp.

All in all, the ship sailed for 19,500 miles during two seasons of sea trials, with 778 flights performed from its deck by aircraft and helicopters.

Russia's Northern Fleet aviation was involved in the sea trials: aircraft and helicopters flew around and over the ship in order to check its radar, air defence, communication and control systems.

During the first stage of the trials in the White Sea, the ship's physical fields were measured, and the crew practiced fuelling and fresh water replenishing operations.

The ship was initially scheduled to be commissioned on December 4, 2012. However its transfer to India was postponed until the end of 2013 after the problems during the sea trials.

Under a package inter-governmental agreement signed in New Delhi in January 2004, the body of the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, later renamed to Vikramaditya, was transferred to India for free subject to its upgrading at Sevmash and armament with Russian aircraft.

The overall cost of the contract was estimated at 1.5 billion US dollars, of which about 974 million US dollars were intended for the conversion of the ship into a full-scale aircraft carrier. All work was supposed to be completed in 2008. However the completion date has been postponed. According to unofficial data, the final cost of the aircraft carrier is 2.3 billion US dollars.

The Admiral Gorshkov was built in Nikolayev under the name of Baku and put to service in the Northern Fleet in 1987. It is 283 metres long, 51 metres wide, with water displacement of over 45,000 tonnes.

The Vikramaditya left Russia's territorial waters in late November and should arrive in India in late January or early February 2014.

Voice of Russia, TASS
Read more: India's Vikramaditya aircraft carrier casts anchor off Murmansk - News - Russia - The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video

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## Penguin

Follow Vikramaditya on her current voyage from Russia to India
Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions - AIS Marine Traffic (search: warship R33)

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## BigDaddyWatch

sancho said:


> Deepak class tanker in Russia to support Vikis journey:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mig during take off:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mig during landing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hangar and rear lift:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Migs at TP 6, 9 and 11:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good to see how the Mig at TP 7 reaches over the lift with the cockpit section:


Looks very nice.


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## li0nheart

Jai_Hind said:


> The country where this website is based....



this website is based in Europe! 

Whois - IP Address - Domain Name Lookup


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## Penguin

> HMS MONMOUTH HELPS MAMMOTH AIRCRAFT CARRIER THROUGH CHANNEL


HMS Monmouth helps mammoth aircraft carrier through Channel | Royal Navy
















Vikramaditya is currently stationary of the coast of Lisbon, Portugal.


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## madooxno9

Penguin said:


> Vikramaditya is currently stationary of the coast of Lisbon, Portugal.



WHAT could be the reason , its near Portugal ?


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## Penguin

madooxno9 said:


> WHAT could be the reason , its near Portugal ?


Port visit, en ruote to med, Suez, India. Tanker INS Deepak went into Lisbon port, possibly to top up. Tikrand stays with Vikramaditya at sea. More ships are expected to join at Gibraltar and Oman.


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## WAR-rior

Pakistanis interested in testing their so called 'Carrier Killer' ?

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## Capt.Popeye

An event that took place at Severodinsk in the run-up to the induction of INS VIKRAMADITYA,





 

Good Show by the Crew there, _Bravo Zulu!_



Penguin said:


> HMS Monmouth helps mammoth aircraft carrier through Channel | Royal Navy


 

Now; what kind of help was that? LOLL

It was just an act of _Naval Etiquette _where one warship provides an escort to another warship (usually a Flagship/Capital Ship) _on passage_ for a short part of the passage. "Ensigns are dipped" and Signals are exchanged to wish the Passing Ship _Bon Voyage etc._
Just a bit of Naval Protocol.


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## IND151

IDRW


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## Penguin

madooxno9 said:


> co





Capt.Popeye said:


> An event that took place at Severodinsk in the run-up to the induction of INS VIKRAMADITYA,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Show by the Crew there, _Bravo Zulu!_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now; what kind of help was that? LOLL
> 
> It was just an act of _Naval Etiquette _where one warship provides an escort to another warship (usually a Flagship/Capital Ship) _on passage_ for a short part of the passage. "Ensigns are dipped" and Signals are exchanged to wish the Passing Ship _Bon Voyage etc._
> Just a bit of Naval Protocol.



Hey, don´t shoot the messenger.It´s just the title of the article. It just means ´escorts´-


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## Capt.Popeye

Penguin said:


> Hey, don´t shoot the messenger.It´s just the title of the article. It just means ´escorts´-


 
Oh, then; in the English Language "a ship escorting another ship as a part of Naval Tradition" would translate as "helps"?
And my comment was not aimed at you @Penguin at all, _muy amigo_. You did not write the report!


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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## sivadreams

R33 - Vikramaditya has entered Suez Canal

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## sivadreams

*WARSHIP R33*
Position Recorded on:
*2013-12-27 03:40:00 (UTC)*

Lat/Lon: 30.75181 / 32.33346
Speed/Course: 8.9 kn / 167°


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## IND151

Nation’s biggest warship to dock in three weeks | idrw.org


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## BigDaddyWatch

Has anyone else notice that the Vikramaditya doesn't have a barricade ? A barricade is used for emergency landings. Its not a disaster but this simply means that when Indian pilots have problems with their planes they can't make emergency landings on the deck and will have to ditch their planes in the water to be rescued by helicopters.


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## kbd-raaf

BigDaddyWatch said:


> Has anyone else notice that the Vikramaditya doesn't have a barricade ? A barricade is used for emergency landings. Its not a disaster but this simply means that when Indian pilots have problems with their planes they can't make emergency landings on the deck and will have to ditch their planes in the water to be rescued by helicopters.



The barricade is only put up when an emergency landing is imminent


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## BigDaddyWatch

kbd-raaf said:


> The barricade is only put up when an emergency landing is imminent


I know that. But if you look at the aft of the deck there are no markings that out lines the barricade. The barricade is normally located about the last arrester wire. But on the Vikramaditya there is nothing there. This is a serious oversight.


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## sivadreams

BigDaddyWatch said:


> I know that. But if you look at the aft of the deck there are no markings that out lines the barricade. The barricade is normally located about the last arrester wire. But on the Vikramaditya there is nothing there. This is a serious oversight.



Hahaha I would just laugh at your ignorance


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## Penguin

BigDaddyWatch said:


> I know that. But if you look at the aft of the deck there are no markings that out lines the barricade. The barricade is normally located about the last arrester wire. But on the Vikramaditya there is nothing there. This is a serious oversight.










It is deployed on the same points where arresting wires are.

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## Penguin

http://*********************/jh4cz/assets/MiG-29K-lands-on-Vikramaditya.jpg

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## Abingdonboy

BigDaddyWatch said:


> Has anyone else notice that the Vikramaditya doesn't have a barricade ? A barricade is used for emergency landings. Its not a disaster but this simply means that when Indian pilots have problems with their planes they can't make emergency landings on the deck and will have to ditch their planes in the water to be rescued by helicopters.


Nonsense. The VIKY has such a system but it's not a permanent fixture. It will only be used when needed.


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## sancho

Crossposting from the key forum (credits to Jinan):

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## Tridibans

sancho said:


> Crossposting from the key forum (credits to Jinan):


 Why R33 bears a Bhutanese flag?


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## sancho

Tridibans said:


> Why R33 bears a Bhutanese flag?



Mistake of the website.


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## Capt.Popeye

Abingdonboy said:


> Nonsense. The VIKY has such a system but it's not a permanent fixture. It will only be used when needed.


 
LOLL. Every Carrier has that Barrier. As did the old INS Vikrant or the HMS Hermes/INS Viraat. Though both of them likely never had to unfurl them after they converted to STOVL air ops.


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## BigDaddyWatch

Abingdonboy said:


> Nonsense. The VIKY has such a system but it's not a permanent fixture. It will only be used when needed.


The Vikramaditya doesn't come with a barricade just like it doesn't come with jet blast deflectors and CIWS weapons. I don't see the marking of the barricade on the deck. You can see those markings and outlines like you can see the markings and outlines of a elevator or a jet blast deflector on the deck. The admiral Gorshkov didn't need a barricade just like it didn't need jet blast deflectors because it was a VSTOL carrier were the planes took off and landed vertically. And during the refit they didn't bother to add those things to the ship as it involves cutting open the deck and installing hydraulic systems that may not square with existing systems.


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## Juice

Jai_Hind said:


> The country where this website is based....


Why would the US attack your carrier?


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## Penguin

BigDaddyWatch said:


> I don't see the marking of the barricade on the deck. You can see those markings and outlines like you can see the markings and outlines of a elevator or a jet blast deflector on the deck. The admiral Gorshkov didn't need a barricade just like it didn't need jet blast deflectors because it was a VSTOL carrier were the planes took off and landed vertically. And during the refit they didn't bother to add those things to the ship as it involves cutting open the deck and installing hydraulic systems that may not square with existing systems.



Oh, I see now, which markings you are referring to on the US ship: for the foldable 'poles' that hold up the barrier.






I don't see any of those markings either on the Kuznetsov/Varyag/Liaoning, which was not designed per se for VSTOL operations... but that type does seem to have them: aside the second most forward arrestor wire. See line drawing and look closely at the Liaoning pic. It goes to show that absence of markings doesn't necessarily mean absence of the barrier.

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## Penguin

This line drawing of Vikramaditya does seem to have 'poles' for a barrier (middle arrestor wire)




But this (newer?) one doesn't




and I don't see it on pictures (yet) ... at least not in this pic





But wait, how about this one (see just above the opened canopy for the first Mig29K to the left of the folded wing of the second Mig29K, running from the group of men down and to the left to the single man walking away)


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## scholseys

Finally this made in China carrier is commissioned.


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## Penguin

Diagram of US aircraft carrier barricade
SourceUS Navy; CV NATOPS Manual


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## Capt.Popeye

aazidane said:


> Finally this made in China carrier is commissioned.


 
Which Carrier are you talkin' about? Only two carriers have been commissioned recently, neither made in China.
Are you talkin' about the one made in _Chalna_, right?


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## Penguin

Here on CdG


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## BigDaddyWatch

Penguin said:


> Oh, I see now, which markings you are referring to on the US ship: for the foldable 'poles' that hold up the barrier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see any of those markings either on the Kuznetsov/Varyag/Liaoning, which was not designed per se for VSTOL operations... but that type does seem to have them: aside the second most forward arrestor wire. See line drawing and look closely at the Liaoning pic. It goes to show that absence of markings doesn't necessarily mean absence of the barrier.


Here is a high resolution photo of the Liaoning. Look between the third and fourth arresting wire.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7372/10987576493_3fd102942d_o.jpg

Here is a high resolution photo of the Vikramaditya. There is nothing were the barricade should be. But you can clearly see the elevator.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/4Iwro10TdWg/maxresdefault.jpg

Here is a photo of the Charles De Gaulle. Look closely in front of the third arresting wire.

http://seaandnavy.com/objets/10684.jpg


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## Jai_Hind

Juice said:


> Why would the US attack your carrier?




Is it based in US??? I thought .pk domains are for pakistani websites... anyways now you know what I meant...


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## Penguin

Capt.Popeye said:


> Which Carrier are you talkin' about? Only two carriers have been commissioned recently, neither made in China.
> Are you talkin' about the one made in _Chalna_, right?


+1 
Black Sea Shipyard located in Nykolaiv, Ukraine
aka Nikolaev, Chernomorsky Shipyard
aka Nikolayev South Shipyard 
aka Soviet Shipyard No. 444

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## Penguin

> Barricade engagements are rare, as tailhooks are designed to be extremely fail-safe, and an aircraft returning from combat with such severe damage would likely not be able to land. This device has been installed on all American aircraft carriers and on French Charles de Gaulle while Brazilian CATOBAR, Russian and Indian STOBAR aircraft carriers have conventional arresting gear installed.


Arresting gear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

??
Home - A-Laskuvarjo Oy
TEKSAV Teknoloji

Barricade nets are available from e.g. Finland and TUrkey. I'm inclined to think/conclude Vikra may use an alternative to the staunchions found on the larger ships.++


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## Penguin

Interesting, this old CG too has staunchions for the barricade. It also has an additional arresting wire.





Interesting shot of Scimitar getting caught on Ark Royal (R09)
Note the location of the (striped) staunchion.










As you can see on this pic, these were actually mounted on the port deck edge and on (not in) the flightdeck on starboard.





Seeing this, I'm inclined to think Vikramaditya may have a barricade net but perhaps a different (as compared to US, French etc) manner of putting it up.


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## Juice

Jai_Hind said:


> Is it based in US??? I thought .pk domains are for pakistani websites... anyways now you know what I meant...


I knew what you meant...and it may now be in Pakistan...but the server was US based.


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## Nan Yang

BigDaddyWatch said:


> Here is a high resolution photo of the Liaoning. Look between the third and fourth arresting wire.
> 
> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7372/10987576493_3fd102942d_o.jpg
> 
> Here is a high resolution photo of the Vikramaditya. There is nothing were the barricade should be. But you can clearly see the elevator.
> 
> http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/4Iwro10TdWg/maxresdefault.jpg
> 
> Here is a photo of the Charles De Gaulle. Look closely in front of the third arresting wire.
> 
> http://seaandnavy.com/objets/10684.jpg




I see it on the Liaoning now. You have good eyes "BigDaddyWatch".





And on the CDG.


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## Penguin

Nan Yang said:


> I see it on the Liaoning now. You have good eyes "BigDaddyWatch".


... whereas I'm as blind as a bat?

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## IND151

Broadsword: Vikramaditya arrives!

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## kurup

*INS Vikramadithya meets INS Viraat 
*

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## micky

kurup said:


> *INS Vikramadithya meets INS Viraat
> *


you are quick man i was just going to add this picture from ajay shukla,,, you done it

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## Roybot

kurup said:


> *INS Vikramadithya meets INS Viraat
> *


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## Water Car Engineer

Roybot said:


>




Replace Viraat with IAC1/Vikrant (with Kolkatas, Shivaliks, Kamorta too) , then it will be truly orgasmic.

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## IndoUS

Anyone knows where INS Deepak is? I thought the tanker was also sent to bring the ACC home.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Rahul1563

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Awesome pics bro..........when will it reach Karwar base????????


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## laltaputu

How will IN utilize this part of Vikramaditya?

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## sancho

laltaputu said:


> View attachment 13094
> How will IN utilize this part of Vikramaditya?



Carrying smaller boats, tractors / tugs to use the front and the back of the island for aircrafts only, unlike Viraat.


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## Gessler

With reference to this photo...






...and this video: -






An ex-IN Harrier pilot at another forum has said:



> What you see being towed behind Vikky is called Splash target. It is a flat wooden board with a metal hook which splashes water and can be seen by aircraft. They carry out weapon drops on this target using rockets/front guns/practice bombs. You can see in some pix that sea harrier is flying close to it. This is done not only to train pilots but also directing staff of the carrier.
> Pls notice the tramlines on the carrier and how less is the separation on the sides. This is the kind of accuracy which is needed and expected from naval pilots by day and by night.

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## IND151

INS Vikramaditya reaches Karwar | idrw.org


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## kurup




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## bloo

*Refitted Former Russian Aircraft Carrier Arrives in India*



Vikramaditya

© RIA Novosti. Alexandr Petrov
22:28 08/01/2014

NEW DELHI, January 8 (RIA Novosti) – A refitted former Soviet aircraft carrier has reached the Indian coast after leaving Russia’s northern shipyard in mid-November, media report said on Wednesday.

The Vikramaditya, a refurbished Russian carrier formerly known as the Admiral Gorshkov, arrived at a naval base in Kanwar in the western state of Karnataka on Tuesday, Indian IBN television reported citing sources in the Navy.

The aircraft carrier was handed over to the Indian navy on November 16 at the Semvash shipbuilder and departed from Russia on November 26.

A team of Russian specialists arrived onboard the ship and will stay in India for a year to fix any possible glitches if needed.

The Vikramaditya is to become India’s second aircraft carrier. The process of the ship’s official commissioning will take between three and four months.

The refurbishments of the vessel lurched from one crisis to another since the $947 million deal was signed with Russia in 2004 for its purchase and refit.

The delays pushed up the cost of its refurbishing to $2.3 billion, sparking acrimony between Russia and India over the contract.

Refitted Former Russian Aircraft Carrier Arrives in India | Defense | RIA Novosti


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## IND151

INS Vikramaditya will create waves for India | idrw.org


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## IND151

A beauty berths in Karwar. A deadly beauty | idrw.org


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## IND151

With INS Vikramaditya settling in at home-base Karwar, it will soon be time for the crew, led by Commodore Suraj Berry, to set out to sea again. If sources are to be believed, the 44,000 ship will up anchor and commence on a routine of operational training exercises in the Arabian Sea from January 16 with ships from the Western Fleet. The exercise will carry on for at least a fortnight, after which, the vessel is likely to sail to Mumbai for a formal reception that could see even Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in attendance. The ship will also sail to Visakhapatnam from Mumbai after planned ceremonials.

On its voyage to India, the Vikramaditya conducted basic exercises at sea with the Indian destroyers, frigates and tanker that escorted it across the Arabian Sea. So far unweaponised, the ship still has a long way to go before it is the operational platform it is intended to be. According to top Indian Navy sources, apprehensions about the platform’s performance in tropical waters—its first time ever—have been belied by the smoothe passage of the ship into much warmer waters than it is used to. Over the next three-four months, the crew of INS Vikramaditya, along with the 75-strong Russian guarantee team, will put the ship through the paces through the searing Indian summer to confirm all performance parameters at forbidding temperatures out at sea.

INS Vikramaditya to sail to Mumbai & Vizag | idrw.org

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## Gessler

laltaputu said:


> View attachment 13094
> How will IN utilize this part of Vikramaditya?



Hi, do you have the original version of this pic? Without the yellow marks?


----------



## li0nheart

Gessler said:


> Hi, do you have the original version of this pic? Without the yellow marks?

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## IND151

Navy gets ready to start Vikramaditya flying ops | idrw.org


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## Gessler

^^ Last picture : A Russian Navy Sukhoi Su-33 Flanker flies off the Vikramaditya.

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## trident2010

Nice !!


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## ejaz007

*INS Vikramaditya: India’s New Carrier*

*Latest Update:*

*Feb 7/14: Indian landing.* A MIG-29KUB fighter lands on Vikramaditya. That has happened before, but it’s the 1st time with an Indian naval officer at the controls. India’s active Harrier force has relied on Sea Harrier vertical-landing jets for decades, which makes this landing a milestone for the Navy as a whole, as well as for the ship.

While the 303 Sqn. Black Panthers were commissioned in 2013, the ship’s official commissioning will take another 3-4 months. There’s still work to be done before they’re fully ready, though reports of troubles on the ship’s journeys appear to be exaggerated. The complaints amount to postponing refueling with INS Deepak in rough seas off of Portugal, and a reported boiler breakdown. The first complaint is trivial, but the boiler issue could be a problem, given past issues with that machinery. Even India’s Navy won’t know until debriefings are done and the report is in.

As the local beachgoers already know, a team of Russian specialists have arrived on board, and will stay in India for a year as technical backup. Itar-Tass, “First Indian-piloted MiG safely lands on Vikramaditya aircraft carrier” | RIA Novosti, “First Indian MiG-29 Fighter Jet Lands on Vikramaditya” | Hindustan Times, “Choppy first ride home for INS Vikramaditya”.

INS Vikramaditya: India’s New Carrier

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## IND151

India Proposes Joint Maintenance of Aircraft Carrier With Russia | idrw.org


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## Reviewer21

Imran Khan said:


> muft main apna bhaav bardhana or news create kerna koi india se seekhy .
> 
> yesterday C-130J reach Philippines ary bhai kher to hai ? kya history create ho gai ? a small movement they make it very big don't know why



See, you guys think everyone's like you, Because what we do is report them and let OUR people stay updated. Everyone isn't like you guys for example: Everytime India tests something new and advanced all that pakistan does is test Nasr/hatf. And then brag and compare it with India's test. Here's a hilarious example:






Note: I am not referring to whole pakistan, but trolls like you and the one in this clip. Sensible people also exist in pakistan, the instance is in the video itself - the Caller...


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## Reviewer21

IBRIS said:


> Congress better set up a nice show for the ship's arrival. I want to see Katrina's thumkay on the deck along with other hotties. Any Video available of handing over ceremony, Anyone..?




No we don't need that BS, all i want is, it to be handed over to our Great Jawans. Jai Hind!!


----------



## HRK

India Proposes Joint Maintenance of Aircraft Carrier With Russia | Defense | RIA Novosti

MOSCOW, February 13 (RIA Novosti) – *India has proposed servicing a Russian-built aircraft carrier delivered to the country last month together with Russia’s Sevmash shipyard over the next 40 years, the shipbuilder said Thursday.*

Sevmash said the current servicing contract is for 20 years, but that Indian naval officials have proposed to extend that timeframe.

“Our Indian partners have proposed to conduct all service work on the ship together with Sevmash,” the White Sea-based shipbuilder said.

The Vikramaditya was ceremonially handed over to India in November, but only departed from Russia in December, and arrived safely at its new home port Karwar last month.

Sevmash representatives are scheduled to visit India next month as part of an intergovernmental military cooperation commission.

The two countries have longstanding military ties and, among other projects, have cooperated on the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile and the fifth-generation PAK-FA jet fighter still under development.


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## cirr

HRK said:


> India Proposes Joint Maintenance of Aircraft Carrier With Russia | Defense | RIA Novosti
> 
> MOSCOW, February 13 (RIA Novosti) – *India has proposed servicing a Russian-built aircraft carrier delivered to the country last month together with Russia’s Sevmash shipyard over the next 40 years, the shipbuilder said Thursday.*
> 
> Sevmash said the current servicing contract is for 20 years, but that Indian naval officials have proposed to extend that timeframe.
> 
> “Our Indian partners have proposed to conduct all service work on the ship together with Sevmash,” the White Sea-based shipbuilder said.
> 
> The Vikramaditya was ceremonially handed over to India in November, but only departed from Russia in December, and arrived safely at its new home port Karwar last month.
> 
> Sevmash representatives are scheduled to visit India next month as part of an intergovernmental military cooperation commission.
> 
> The two countries have longstanding military ties and, among other projects, have cooperated on the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile and the fifth-generation PAK-FA jet fighter still under development.



What？What？？What？？？

So Indians can't do the service work on their own？

So the Russians are gonna skin the Indians for the next 40 years？


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## 帅的一匹

Viki can't last another 40years.


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## gslv mk3

wanglaokan said:


> Viki can't wait another 40years.



Your comprehension skills are very bad..

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## ejaz007

*India Proposes Joint Maintenance of Aircraft Carrier With Russia*

MOSCOW, February 13 (RIA Novosti) – India has proposed servicing a Russian-built aircraft carrier delivered to the country last month together with Russia’s Sevmash shipyard over the next 40 years, the shipbuilder said Thursday.

Sevmash said the current servicing contract is for 20 years, but that Indian naval officials have proposed to extend that timeframe.

“Our Indian partners have proposed to conduct all service work on the ship together with Sevmash,” the White Sea-based shipbuilder said.

The Vikramaditya was ceremonially handed over to India in November, but only departed from Russia in December, and arrived safely at its new home port Karwar last month.

Sevmash representatives are scheduled to visit India next month as part of an intergovernmental military cooperation commission.

The two countries have longstanding military ties and, among other projects, have cooperated on the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile and the fifth-generation PAK-FA jet fighter still under development.

India Proposes Joint Maintenance of Aircraft Carrier With Russia | Defense | RIA Novosti


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## shree835

Thanks Russia for this Quality AC,


----------



## trident2010

Beautiful ship

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## IND151

Sevmash chosen for INS Vikramaditya post-warranty servicing | idrw.org


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## ejaz007

*INS Vikramaditya: India’s New Carrier*

*Latest Update:*

*March 12/14: Weapons.* India reportedly rejected Russian offers to mount their Kashtan




gun/missile close-in air defense system on INS Vikramaditya, which were reportedly made during a recent meeting of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation. It’s not a final rejection, but their experience with Russian maintenance is reportedly pushing them to hold an open competition. That could be a fine opportunity for a range of systems. KBP’s Kashtan would be eligible to bid, but so would bolt-on, independently-operated options like Raytheon’s SeaRAM missiles or Phalanx 20mm gun, or systems like MBDA’s Mistral-based Simbad/Tetral.

INS Vikramaditya is eventually supposed to use the medium range LR-SAM/ Barak-8 as its main air defense weapon, but a close-in option will be needed until India tests and fields it, and would remain a good idea even after LR-SAM is installed. Sources: Defense Radar, “Indian Navy To Open Search for Carrier Air Defense System.”

INS Vikramaditya: India’s New Carrier

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## kurup

Sevmash chosen for INS Vikramaditya post-warranty servicing






India has chosen Russia’s Sevmash shipyard for post-warranty servicing of the INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier. The relevant protocol was signed at the 23rd meeting of the naval subgroup of the Indo-Russian Inter Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) in Goa on Wednesday, March 12.
An additional agreement will be signed in May, Sevmash officials told Itar-Tass.

Russia handed over the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier to the Indian Navy on November 16, 2013.

After a complete overhaul of what was called the Admiral Gorhskov, the ship got a new flight deck and a ski-jump ramp for MiG-29K jet fighters, navigation, radar, communication and flight control systems, other equipment and units. Russia also trained an Indian crew of about 1,500 personnel and will build infrastructure for the aircraft carrier in the Indian Ocean. The ship is expected to operate for 25-30 years.

Its full water displacement is 45,000 tonnes, maximum length is 283.5 metres and maximum width is 59.8 metres (increased by 8.8 metres from the original ship). The ship can carry 30 aircraft, including MiG-29K het fighters and Ka-27 and Ka-31 helicopters. Its crew is about 2,000 members.

Russia's Severodvinsk-based defence shipyard Sevmash in the northern Arkhangelsk region, which upgraded the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier, will also provide post-warranty services for the ship for the next 20 years.

After the transfer of the ship to the Indian Navy, Sevmash engineers and specialists will provide warranty maintenance services for the aircraft carrier for one year.

During the three-month sea trials the ship demonstrated excellent seaworthiness, speed of 27.9 knots (about 52 kilometres per hour) and manoeuvrability. MiG specialists praised the ski-jump ramp.

All in all, the ship sailed for 19,500 miles during two seasons of sea trials, with 778 flights performed from its deck by aircraft and helicopters.

Russia's Northern Fleet aviation was involved in the sea trials: aircraft and helicopters flew around and over the ship in order to check its radar, air defence, communication and control systems.

During the first stage of the trials in the White Sea, the ship's physical fields were measured, and the crew practiced fuelling and fresh water replenishing operations.

The ship was initially scheduled to be commissioned on December 4, 2012. However its transfer to India was postponed until the end of 2013 after the problems during the sea trials.

Under a package inter-governmental agreement signed in New Delhi in January 2004, the body of the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, later renamed to Vikramaditya, was transferred to India for free subject to its upgrading at Sevmash and armament with Russian aircraft.

The overall cost of the contract was estimated at $1.5 billion of which about $974 million was intended for the conversion of the ship into a full-scale aircraft carrier. All work was supposed to be completed in 2008. However the completion date has been postponed. According to unofficial data, the final cost of the aircraft carrier is $2.3 billion.

The Admiral Gorshkov was built in Nikolayev under the name of Baku and put to service in the Northern Fleet in 1987.

Defence News - Sevmash chosen for INS Vikramaditya post-warranty servicing


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## अखण्ड भारत!!!

Nice Carrier I'll take it for a ride


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## trident2010

Formidable weapon !!

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## अखण्ड भारत!!!

INDIA HU AKBAR!


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## jarves

अखण्ड भारत!!! said:


> INDIA HU AKBAR!


What does that mean??


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## kurup

jarves said:


> What does that mean??



Literally means India is Great .

Why he is writing this he alone knows ??


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## Black Eagle 90

Will IN get the 2nd Carrier from Russia?


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## Parul

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Will IN get the 2nd Carrier from Russia?



We are constructing our own Carrier. Therefore, we don't need 2nd Carrier from Russia.

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## Black Eagle 90

Sidak said:


> We are constructing our own Carrier. Therefore, we don't need 2nd Carrier from Russia.


Agree! But I am sure the upgrade of their carrier and low budget of Russia might push IN to buy their carrier along with Aircraft and helicopters.


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## kurup

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Agree! But I am sure the upgrade of their carrier and low budget of Russia might push IN to buy their carrier along with Aircraft and helicopters.



Nishan please don't bring your stupid fantasies here tooo .........


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## Sam Manekshaw

when INS Vikramaditya getting operational???? Any new pic or videos?


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## Gessler

INS Vikramaditya operationally deployed, MiG-29K fighters completely integrated : Navy Chief RK Dhowan


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/463943324198375425


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## nair

Any one have the latest update on IAC 1?


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## Gessler

*INS Vikramaditya is operationally deployed with MiG- 29K aircraft: Navy Chief*


India's largest warship -- aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, is "operationally deployed" along with its fleet of MiG 29K combat aircraft, Navy chief Admiral Robin Dhowan said here today.

"*The navy has inducted aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya which is now operationally deployed with MiG 29K aircraft embarked and being flown by Indian naval pilots,*" he told reporters here.

The 44,500-tonne aircraft carrier procured from Russia at a cost of USD 2.33 billion had arrived in India in January this year and is stationed at its home-base in Karwar in Karnataka.

_*Navy sources said the aircraft carrier has already taken part in one of the war games conducted recently by the Western Navy.*_

The aircraft carrier, which does not have air defence guns, is expected to get its weaponry for protection against aerial attacks at its scheduled first refit, they said.

Highlighting the list of capabilities and platforms to be acquired by the Navy in the near future, Dhowan said the first indigeneously built aircraft carrier christened INS Vikrant being built at the Cochin shipyard, will be ready for trials in 2017 and for delivery by 2018-end.

He said the force has already inducted nuclear attack submarine INS Chakra, the P-8I long range reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare aircraft along with the Shivalik class frigates among others, he said.

INS Vikramaditya is operationally deployed with MiG- 29K aircraft: Navy Chief | Business Standard


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## Sergi

Gessler said:


> *INS Vikramaditya is operationally deployed with MiG- 29K aircraft: Navy Chief*
> 
> 
> India's largest warship -- aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, is "operationally deployed" along with its fleet of MiG 29K combat aircraft, Navy chief Admiral Robin Dhowan said here today.
> 
> "*The navy has inducted aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya which is now operationally deployed with MiG 29K aircraft embarked and being flown by Indian naval pilots,*" he told reporters here.
> 
> The 44,500-tonne aircraft carrier procured from Russia at a cost of USD 2.33 billion had arrived in India in January this year and is stationed at its home-base in Karwar in Karnataka.
> 
> _*Navy sources said the aircraft carrier has already taken part in one of the war games conducted recently by the Western Navy.*_
> 
> The aircraft carrier, which does not have air defence guns, is expected to get its weaponry for protection against aerial attacks at its scheduled first refit, they said.
> 
> Highlighting the list of capabilities and platforms to be acquired by the Navy in the near future, Dhowan said the first indigeneously built aircraft carrier christened INS Vikrant being built at the Cochin shipyard, will be ready for trials in 2017 and for delivery by 2018-end.
> 
> He said the force has already inducted nuclear attack submarine INS Chakra, the P-8I long range reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare aircraft along with the Shivalik class frigates among others, he said.
> 
> INS Vikramaditya is operationally deployed with MiG- 29K aircraft: Navy Chief | Business Standard


Any info on CBG ???


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## Mujraparty

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/463986101133127680

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## kaykay

eowyn said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/463986101133127680


This pic is old one. Though great news that finally Its operationally deployed and our pilots are flying Mig-29Ks from viki.


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## DacterSaab

eowyn said:


> Sweet! Navy's aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya on op deployment now with MiG-29K jets on deck. (File photo). pic.twitter.com/M4HbWfbF23
> — Shiv Aroor (@ShivAroor) May 7, 2014


Those aren't jets of IN, you sure that's Viky?


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## SRP

First photo of aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya on operational deployment. Taken in the Arabian Sea this month

Photo credit: Shiv Aroor

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## SRP

Don't know if ever this pic posted here





*Putting the 900 tonne Ski Jump in place*

Source: Indian Navy


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## Abingdonboy

DacterSaab said:


> Those aren't jets of IN, you sure that's Viky?



It's the Viky- from the sea trails in Russia, he says it is a file photo bro!




desert warrior said:


> First photo of aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya on operational deployment. Taken in the Arabian Sea this month
> 
> Photo credit: Shiv Aroor




Really? All this time waiting on a pic of the Viky in IN service and THAT is it?






desert warrior said:


> Don't know if ever this pic posted here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Putting the 900 tonne Ski Jump in place*
> 
> Source: Indian Navy


No pic appears mate.

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## IND151

Aircraft carrier Vikramaditya fully operational: Navy Chief | idrw.org

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## Abingdonboy

Dolphins swimming alongside INS Viky:

Shiv Aroor's post on Vine

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## Abingdonboy

INAS 322 on the Vikramditya:

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## Indus Falcon

*Safety scare on Gorshkov*
by SUJAN DUTTA
*New Delhi, June 4:*A new fighter jet of the Indian Navy was partly damaged after a “hard landing” on the deck of the INS Vikramaditya today, less than a month after the aircraft carrier was declared “fully operational”.

The carrier — earlier called Admiral Gorshkov — and the aircraft were bought with a lot of taxpayer money and after years of delay.

The incident calls to question a history of tardiness in procurement of weapons-platforms, combined with challenges thrown to Arun Jaitley, who has succeeded A.K. Antony as defence minister.

Antony was the longest-serving defence minister. There were more recorded mishaps in his tenure than in any other minister’s, barring V.K. Krishna Menon’s in 1962.

Navy sources described today’s incident as a “hard landing” to distinguish it from a crash. The nose wheel of the jet, a MiG29K — also procured from Russia like the Vikramaditya — is said to have been partly damaged. The MiG29K has tandem cockpits. Both pilots are safe, navy sources said.

The incident happened off the coast of Goa late this afternoon. The aircraft had taken off from the INS Hansa naval air station at Dabolim, where it is shore-based, and was to land on the Vikramaditya in manoeuvres that the vessel and its aircraft have been engaged in since May 7. That was when navy chief Admiral Robin Dhowan announced the carrier was fully operational with its combat aircraft integrated.

The navy last week reshuffled its top brass after accidents on its ships and submarines were followed by the resignation of then chief Admiral D.K. Joshi and the supersession of the chief of its western command, Vice Admiral Shekhar Sinha.

Since then, the government and the navy itself are taking a harder look at the country’s armada.

Even if the potential for damage to a carrier and its aircraft is great, “hard landings” are not all that infrequent because of the complex techniques involved in landing and take-off from a sailing ship.

The MiG29K is designed to land on the Vikramaditya with a tail-hook that has to be trapped in one of three arrester cables on the deck that will force the jet to come to a stop. (Just imagine a sprinter being forced to stop by a tape that cannot be breached, many times over). But the pilots of the jet cannot cut power so much that the aircraft may not be able to take off if the tail-hook fails to trap the arresters.

Navy sources said that in the waters off Goa this evening, the MiG29K failed to “trap” the first two arrester cables but took the third.

That caused the “hard landing” because the pilots were powering up (increasing throttle) to take-off after having missed the first two cables.

Apparently, the shock of the trap and the landing was so much that the nose of the aircraft pointed skywards before the plane dropped down on its nose wheel. The impact damaged the nose wheel. The arrester cables force the aircraft to stop on landing, bringing the aircraft from a speed of about 300kmph to zero in fractions of a second.

The INS Vikramaditya cost the Indian taxpayer $2.35 billion (around Rs 15,000cr).

The twin-engine MiG29K was originally part of a package deal with Russia along with the Gorshkov. India has contracted 45 MiG29K aircraft for $2.4 billion (Rs 14,232cr). A total of 27 of the aircraft have been delivered.

The Vikramaditya sailed from Russia and reached the Indian waters in January this year, five years behind schedule.

Because of the delay, the MiG29K pilots of the Indian Navy were trained at facilities in the US and at a Goa shore-based platform that simulates take-off and landing requirements at INS Hansa, the station in Dabolim.

But more than the technology, the technicalities and rigorous training methods required to operate aircraft from carriers, the Indian Navy and the Indian defence establishment are concerned with the resonance of mishaps and accidents on its top brass and their political leadership.

In the tenure of Antony, the military was always confused between what was politically correct and what was operationally desirable.

For Jaitley, who has succeeded Antony, this is a period of intense study with sharper focus on taxpayer money as he is also the finance minister.

This weekend, Jaitley is scheduled to travel to Mumbai and visit the only other aircraft carrier, the INS Viraat, which is being recycled several times over to meet the navy’s requirements.

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## Indus Falcon

DID article on INS Vikramaditya:

INS Vikramaditya: India’s New Carrier


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## nik22

@Abu Nasar , Thanks for Sharing. Link is not working in second post.
There is a lot of learning curve. There is no way than to take risk. I hope Indian navy coordinate with a navy like US.

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## Indus Falcon

nik22 said:


> @Abu Nasar , Thanks for Sharing. Link is not working in second post.
> There is a lot of learning curve. There is no way than to take risk. I hope Indian navy coordinate with a navy like US.



Try this link, should work now:

INS Vikramaditya: India’s New Carrier


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## ejaz007

*INS Vikramaditya: India’s New Carrier*

*Latest Update:*

*June 4/14: “Slammer”.* Welcome to the world of assisted carrier landings. A 2-seat MiG-29KUB pilot just found out the hard way, after flying in from INS Hansa’s shore base. He was going to miss R33′s first 2 arrester wires, so he throttled up for a bolter takeoff, then caught the 3rd wire with the arrester hook. The MiG’s nose reportedly pointed skyward before slamming back to the deck.

Everyone is fine, but the nose wheel is going to need repair or replacement, and the pilot may wind up with a new nickname. We recommend “Slammer,” in the long and proud tradition of stuff that sounds cool but refers to something embarrassing.

There will be more incidents like this, as Indian aviators become more familiar with this new landing mode. Sea Harriers will absolutely kill you for a misstep during vertical landings, so it isn’t like this is some new frontier of required professionalism. It’s just that a full-speed trap is a very different animal, with its own skills and dangers. Sources: Calcutta Telegraph, “Safety scare on Gorshkov”.

INS Vikramaditya: India’s New Carrier

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## Indus Falcon

ejaz007 said:


> *INS Vikramaditya: India’s New Carrier*
> 
> *Latest Update:*
> 
> *June 4/14: “Slammer”.* Welcome to the world of assisted carrier landings. A 2-seat MiG-29KUB pilot just found out the hard way, after flying in from INS Hansa’s shore base. He was going to miss R33′s first 2 arrester wires, so he throttled up for a bolter takeoff, then caught the 3rd wire with the arrester hook. The MiG’s nose reportedly pointed skyward before slamming back to the deck.
> 
> Everyone is fine, but the nose wheel is going to need repair or replacement, and the pilot may wind up with a new nickname. We recommend “Slammer,” in the long and proud tradition of stuff that sounds cool but refers to something embarrassing.
> 
> There will be more incidents like this, as Indian aviators become more familiar with this new landing mode. Sea Harriers will absolutely kill you for a misstep during vertical landings, so it isn’t like this is some new frontier of required professionalism. It’s just that a full-speed trap is a very different animal, with its own skills and dangers. Sources: Calcutta Telegraph, “Safety scare on Gorshkov”.
> 
> INS Vikramaditya: India’s New Carrier


Did you bother going through the last 5 posts before you posted? Guess Not!


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## IND151

INS Vikramaditya on operational deployment | idrw.org

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## Sam Manekshaw

Treat your eyes...Pics out

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## Soumitra

Mig 29 touch and go on INS Vikramaditya

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## Soumitra



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## cloud_9

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/477678232125583360


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## Soumitra

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/477677268035452928


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## Water Car Engineer




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## Sam Manekshaw

some more pic from today's event

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## Abingdonboy




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## Abingdonboy




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## Indus Falcon

Will Harriers be deployed on INS Vikramaditya or only Mig29's?


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## Abingdonboy

Abu Nasar said:


> Will Harriers be deployed on INS Vikramaditya or only Mig29's?


Only MiG-29Ks. When the Viraat retires so will the Harriers

---------------------------------------------

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## Indo-guy



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## longewala

That was a great video, love the Russian voice-over.


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## RPK



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## Bhasad Singh Mundi



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## indopak



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## indopak

*Cont.....
*

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi




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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Reviewer21

Jai_Hind said:


> The country where this website is based....


US?


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## Jai_Hind

Reviewer21 said:


> US?



Is defence.pk based in US...


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## Reviewer21

Jai_Hind said:


> Is defence.pk based in US...


Well technically saying yes, the website is stored in servers and those are based in US.


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## Jai_Hind

Reviewer21 said:


> Well technically saying yes, the website is stored in servers and those are based in US.



So after all those pakistanis cursing US in this forum... they are actually earning from it

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## godofwar

I read a report today stating that since India insisted on overhaul of all major and semi major sub systems on Vikramaditya that IN has essentially gotten a brand new carrier at second hand price capable of serving upto 40 years and is not scheduled for any maintenance for next ten years ?

It also said Indian govt. arm twisted Russians into doing so much work for very little money because of media furore created by media when the cost escalations and delivery delays became a major issue circa 2002-07 iirc.

Any truth in this report ?

@sancho @Capt.Popeye


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## sancho

godofwar said:


> I read a report today stating that since India insisted on overhaul of all major and semi major sub systems on Vikramaditya that IN has essentially gotten a brand new carrier at second hand price capable of serving upto 40 years and is not scheduled for any maintenance for next ten years ?
> 
> It also said Indian govt. arm twisted Russians into doing so much work for very little money because of media furore created by media when the cost escalations and delivery delays became a major issue circa 2002-07 iirc.
> 
> Any truth in this report ?



Not even close! We definitely didn't got a new carrier and even less at 2nd hand price! From the procurement point of view it is nothing but a disaster, years of delays, high cost overruns, many technical problems, basicially limited to Russian aircrafts and if reports are true that we have to do maintenance in Russia, it get even worse in future.
They had offered us an alternative to bridge the gap till our first indigenous carrier would be available, the problem is, that we were far too naiv to believe all the timeframes and figures they gave us and that our technical teams that evaluated the base carrier and possible changes clearly lacked the necessary competence either. 

However, compared to Viraat with Sea Harriers, this baby makes a big operational difference and that's why IN is so happy about it, but lets see what happens when it faces technical problems and how often it will be in the dock. The fact that we keept Viraat so long although it's very clear that it's far beyond it's life and technical capability, only to give IN the satisfaction to have an aircraft carrier, shows the irrationality and explains this procurement too.

When you then add the fact that we could had bought the carrier from the Ukraine too, if we had played it as smart as the Chinese did, could had refurbished it in Russia but mostlikely in a faster way and would had naval MKIs now in service, it gets really sad.


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## godofwar

sancho said:


> Not even close! We definitely didn't got a new carrier and even less at 2nd hand price! From the procurement point of view it is nothing but a disaster, years of delays, high cost overruns, many technical problems, basicially limited to Russian aircrafts and if reports are true that we have to do maintenance in Russia, it get even worse in future.
> They had offered us an alternative to bridge the gap till our first indigenous carrier would be available, the problem is, that we were far too naiv to believe all the timeframes and figures they gave us and that our technical teams that evaluated the base carrier and possible changes clearly lacked the necessary competence either.
> 
> However, compared to Viraat with Sea Harriers, this baby makes a big operational difference and that's why IN is so happy about it, but lets see what happens when it faces technical problems and how often it will be in the dock. The fact that we keept Viraat so long although it's very clear that it's far beyond it's life and technical capability, only to give IN the satisfaction to have an aircraft carrier, shows the irrationality and explains this procurement too.
> 
> When you then add the fact that we could had bought the carrier from the Ukraine too, if we had played it as smart as the Chinese did, could had refurbished it in Russia but mostlikely in a faster way and would had naval MKIs now in service, it gets really sad.




But getting an 44,000 tonne aircraft carrier with service life of 40 years at 2.3 Billion is surely not a bad deal ?


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## sancho

Very interesting new pics! We can see some changes at the carrier and finally get a better idea about the number of aircrafts that can be used.





Earlier in Russia...





...and now with some changes.






Now we know why they tested reversed parking in the last set of trials before delivering the carrier, since it seems to open more space for fighers. Initial models and grafics showed forward parking of 4 x fighters only.





As I expected earlier, the spots behind the island will be blocked by tugs and most likely 2 x helicopters...






...which leaves space for 6 x fighters and it seems to be possible to use the lift, even with the Mig noses reaching over at TP 7 and 8.

Also interesting the hangar pic:




I can see (and please correct me if I'm wrong!) 5 x rows of aircrafts, with 3 of them behind the lift like this:






Earlier graphics however estimated 4 x rows behind the lift.


So from what we have seen now, we can say: 
- 11 to 12 x Migs + 1 or 2 x helicopters on the deck 
- 11 to 13 x Migs + 5 o 6 x helicopters in the hangar

*=> 22 to 25 x Migs + 6 to 8 x helicopters in total *

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## Capt.Popeye

godofwar said:


> I read a report today stating that since India insisted on overhaul of all major and semi major sub systems on Vikramaditya that IN has essentially gotten a brand new carrier at second hand price capable of serving upto 40 years and is not scheduled for any maintenance for next ten years ?
> 
> It also said Indian govt. arm twisted Russians into doing so much work for very little money because of media furore created by media when the cost escalations and delivery delays became a major issue circa 2002-07 iirc.
> 
> Any truth in this report ?
> 
> @sancho @Capt.Popeye




The facts are not quite like that. There is some truth in that _pov_ that most of the Ship's critical eqpt is new hence it is not the usual "pre-owned" or second hand Naval Ship. Certainly not comparable to say how the INS Jalashwa is.
But that is where it ends. But to think that she is (or will be) maintenance-free for a decade is simply a fallacy.

The second statement is incorrect. Both the scope and feasibility of the re-construction required were mis-estimated by the IN asessment team as well as the Sevmash team. On the Russian side, they even mis-estimated their own technical capabilities, more so in the post Soviet Union dissolution. Please remember that the Ship was built some-where else and then many years later got re-constructed some where else. 
The added complication was the fire that damaged her and led eventually to her being moth-balled. The effects of that was in some ways the hardest to specifically assess.

I've had considerable exposure to Ship re-build/re-construction projects where both the costs and benefits being sought were easier to quantify, and the decision to carry out or junk the project was much easier to arrive at; largely on the basis of being able to benchmark the project vis-a-vis a similar "new-build" project where the alternative options were available.
Here the additional complication was the unavailability of any alternative "new-build" project of similar capability. Hence the some-what tortuous process had to be gone through to a conclusion; regardless of the flak that the cost and time over-runs attracted.
Similarly, there was a reason why the Chinese also undertook the Varyag/Liaoning project; primarily since there was no alternative to do so. But because of the Chinese way of doing things, it has not attracted any adverse attention.


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## sancho

godofwar said:


> But getting an 44,000 tonne aircraft carrier with service life of 40 years at 2.3 Billion is surely not a bad deal ?



Who says it has a service life of 40 years? Only because we replaced some systems and modified the deck, doesn't take away that it was in service for years and the hull remains the old one to a big extend. Also compared to our new carrier the costs, the limitations for the deck and hangar spaces, the limitations of aircrafts we had to take, the service life and the safer maintenance, clearly makes $2.3 billion for this carrier a huge waste of money and they will force us to pay more over the years too.


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## Agent_47

You won't see a greater video


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> Who says it has a service life of 40 years? Only because we replaced some systems and modified the deck, doesn't take away that it was in service for years and the hull remains the old one to a big extend. Also compared to our new carrier the costs, the limitations for the deck and hangar spaces, the limitations of aircrafts we had to take, the service life and the safer maintenance, clearly makes $2.3 billion for this carrier a huge waste of money and they will force us to pay more over the years too.



Are you assuming the Navy was incompetent to take the decision of buying the carrier . Because you are quiet short of suggesting that


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## arp2041




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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> Are you assuming the Navy was incompetent to take the decision of buying the carrier . Because you are quiet short of suggesting that



Yes, as explained in the earlier post:

INS Vikramaditya commissioned | Page 27


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> Yes, as explained in the earlier post:
> 
> INS Vikramaditya commissioned | Page 27



You are over estimating the doom and gloom , the Navy would not buy it if it did not believe it was operationally feasible.
Neither you nor am i technically qualified when it comes to Construction and maintaining of Aircraft Carriers . So lets not make hasty judgments


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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> You are over estimating the doom and gloom , the Navy would not buy it if it did not believe it was operationally feasible.



Operationally or finacially? Operationally they mean a clear capability increase compared to INS Viraat and Sea Harriers of course, but IN's operational use of AC's is also more than limited and far below the US, France or even UK. IN needs these carriers for decades only for basic Sea Control roles, but not for projecting power and offensive actions. That's why they can even compromise with N-LCAs and Ka 31s on their carriers, which hardly are useful in operational terms.
The simple fact is, they completely underestimated the work and the costs and now we have paid the price of a new carrier for an old one and an operational limited airwing, with several years of delay in induction (not to mention the additional costs to keep Viraat and Harriers updated, till this carrier would be availble). At the end of the day, they simply spent too much on it, to back out again.


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> Operationally or finacially? Operationally they mean a clear capability increase compared to INS Viraat and Sea Harriers of course, but IN's operational use of AC's is also more than limited and far below the US, France or even UK.



The money payed to Vikramaditya was well worth it considering its operational capability.
US France and UK have far larger and costlier Carriers, they are not supposed to be compared.



> IN needs these carriers for decades only for basic Sea Control roles, but not for projecting power and offensive actions. That's why they can even compromise with N-LCAs and Ka 31s on their carriers, which hardly are useful in operational terms.



Can i get a source for that piece of information ? we already have upgraded Mig-29k's on the carrier. I have no idea were the N-LCA came into the the picture and considering the production variant of N-LCA are not out yet how you can make a judgement that it may be hardly usefull operational terms . You might as well ask DRDO and HAL to disband and quit their posts if you think N-LCA will be something which will be hardly useful operationally . And about Dhruv , its probably a stopgap measure until a new heli's are acquired ...



> The simple fact is, they completely underestimated the work and the costs and now we have paid the price of a new carrier for an old one and an operational limited airwing,



Operationally limited air wing ? please explain ?



> with several years of delay in induction (not to mention the additional costs to keep Viraat and Harriers updated, till this carrier would be available). At the end of the day, they simply spent too much on it, to back out again.



You may be misinformed , The Boilers, the equipment inside the entire wiring and cables , pipes and not to mention the hull was also reworked upon . We aren't sailing on the old ship anymore.There is a reason why it took time.

And claiming the Indian navy as incompetent just made you look a little bit less respectful in my eyes because you are clearly are not qualified to make such a rather Brash judgment.

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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> US France and UK have far larger and costlier Carriers, they are not supposed to be compared



Not really, Vikramaditya is in the same class as the French CdG and the size or the cost doesn't matter wrt to the policy on how the carriers would be used, because the brits will have the same policy with their new QE 2 class carriers, that they had with their older Invincible class carriers. 



Star Wars said:


> Can i get a source for that piece of information ?



For what?



Star Wars said:


> Operationally limited air wing ? please explain ?



N-LCAs that hardly be used with credible weapon loads, Ka 31 AEWs will offer poor detection capability and it's still needs to be seen if they can be refuelled in the air to extend their operations. The Migs remains the most capable aircrafts, but with crucial limitations in stand of strike roles, besides that it needs to be seen with what payload they will be able to take off. 
And now look at what IN actually wanted! IAC 1 would had been a CATOBAR carrier if the US had provided catapults, they were interested in F18s and Rafale Ms and now that IAC 2 is in planing, E-2s are likely too, which might had been selected for IAC 1 with catapults as well. Now compare such an IAC 1 with Rafale and E-2s to what Vikramaditya, Migs, N-LCAs and Ka 31 offers. 



Star Wars said:


> The Boilers, the equipment inside the entire wiring and cables , pipes and not to mention the hull was also reworked upon . We aren't sailing on the old ship anymore.There is a reason why it took time.



So when we replace all those things you mentioned in INS Viraat, we can use it for 40 more years? Obviously not, because the base of the vessel remains the same and that is the case for Vikramaditya too, which still has the Gorshkov base.


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> Not really, Vikramaditya is in the same class as the French CdG and the size or the cost doesn't matter wrt to the policy on how the carriers would be used, because the brits will have the same policy with their new QE 2 class carriers, that they had with their older Invincible class carriers.



QE2 class and American carriers are far more larger and can carry a lot more Aircrafts and not to mention they are brand new carriers...




> N-LCAs that hardly be used with credible weapon loads, Ka 31 AEWs will offer poor detection capability and it's still needs to be seen if they can be refuelled in the air to extend their operations. The Migs remains the most capable aircrafts, but with crucial limitations in stand of strike roles, besides that it needs to be seen with what payload they will be able to take off.
> And now look at what IN actually wanted! IAC 1 would had been a CATOBAR carrier if the US had provided catapults, they were interested in F18s and Rafale Ms and now that IAC 2 is in planing, E-2s are likely too, which might had been selected for IAC 1 with catapults as well. Now compare such an IAC 1 with Rafale and E-2s to what Vikramaditya, Migs, N-LCAs and Ka 31 offers


.
Lets not talk about N-LCA's its not even under proper trials , Ka-31AEWs is also used by Russians on Kuznetsov aircraft carrier and also used by the Chinese as well.

"*E-801M Oko (Eye) airborne electronic warfare radar that can track up to 20 targets simultaneously with aerial detection range 90 mi (150 km) and surface warships up to 160 mi (250 km).*"

certain sources even suggest 30-40 targets , unless you can give me a comparative figure with other AEW systems . I don't find it poor in any way. Thats a brand new carrier we are building it is obviously going to be a lot better but its simply stupid to call the carrier "*hardly operationally capable* "




> So when we replace all those things you mentioned in INS Viraat, we can use it for 40 more years? Obviously not, because the base of the vessel remains the same and that is the case for Vikramaditya too, which still has the Gorshkov base.



NO, but i was objecting to you calling the carrier "*a waste of money*" . Its an insult to those people serving aboard the ship ..


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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> "E-801M Oko (Eye) airborne electronic warfare radar that can track up to 20 targets simultaneously...
> ...certain sources even suggest 30-40 targets , unless you can give me a comparative figure with other AEW systems


 .



> The radar of the ASaC7 can detect low flying aircraft and *can track simultaneously 400 targets* providing interception/attack control and over- the- horizon targeting for surface launched weapon system



http://s14.directupload.net/images/140621/tgmlmg5t.png




Star Wars said:


> Thats a brand new carrier we are building it is obviously going to be a lot better but its simply stupid to call the carrier "hardly operationally capable "



It's neither a brand new carrier, nor does the carrier alone tell you something about it's operational capability, because the airwing is the crucial part of it's performance. As I said, it offers higher operational capability than the INS Viraat and the earlier Sea Harriers, which might be enough to carry out Sea Control roles against neighboring countries, BUT compared to other propper aircraft carriers, if clearly falls short!

- Russian, Chinese, French, (coming) British and all US carriers can carry more than 30 x aircrafts
- will have propper medium class, if not heavy class fighters, with better performance and eveb 4.5th and 5th gen capabilities
- the Ka 31 is one of the least capable available carrier based AEW and the base performance of the platform is lower compared to other AEW helicopters like the Sea King or Merlin helicopters too. The Chinese also have the Z8 helicopter with an AEW radar based on a radar developed for the Eurocopter Cougar. Not sure how capable that is, but it is said to be an AESA radar.
- if we can't refuel the Ka 31 in air, it's operation time is very limited, which means you have to counter that with more helicopters, to offer propper 24/7 surveillance

Even if you don't compare it with others but looked at what they could had chosen if they aimed on an at least propper capable you see clear differences!

Current airwing:

4th gen Mig 29Ks and most likely 4.5th N-LCA
Ka 31 AEW
Ka 28 / Sea King ASW


Airwing that could had been procured:

4th gen Mig 29Ks and 4.5th gen Rafale M F3+
Sea King or Merlin AEW (the latter with IFR) with Thales radar or even a V22 AEW
S70 / NH90 ASW

That would had made a clear operational difference, since IN would had been able to provide it's carriers with propper long range early warning capability, with more range and endurance as well as a more capable radar system, but also a mix of far more capable fighters, with propper offensive strike and air defence capabilities to target even enemy carriers or shore based assets.



Star Wars said:


> NO, but i was objecting to you calling the carrier "a waste of money" . Its an insult to those people serving aboard the ship ..



No it's not, since they didn't decided to stick to a procurement that ran out of control in financial terms, nor to limit it's operational capabilities to very basic levels. And a 2nd hand foreign carrier, that costs as much as a new indigenous one, with more restrictions on airwing, maintenance and spares than Vikrant is a waste of money as sad as it is. Denying this reality doesn't get us anything, we only can try to make the best out of it and try to move around the possible future problems for the carrier and the aircrafts, if they remain dependent on Russian upgrades (more integration of Indian techs and spares, to reduce dependance on Russia).


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> .
> No it's not, since they didn't decided to stick to a procurement that ran out of control in financial terms, nor to limit it's operational capabilities to very basic levels. And a 2nd hand foreign carrier, that costs as much as a new indigenous one, with more restrictions on airwing, maintenance and spares than Vikrant is a waste of money as sad as it is. Denying this reality doesn't get us anything, we only can try to make the best out of it and try to move around the possible future problems for the carrier and the aircrafts, if they remain dependent on Russian upgrades (more integration of Indian techs and spares, to reduce dependance on Russia).



What do you mean by the carrier we are building is "neither a brand new carrier" , A brand new aircraft carrier can have a much larger fighter compliment than reworked Laoning and Vikramaditya because of its construction .

Your opinion and your analysis, does not necessarily make it a reality it remains just that, an opinion . and again we do not really know the kind of work involved and what kind of maintenance will be required . Only those working and operating the carriers know whats really going on . So lets not speculate and make judgments over assumptions..

The Air wing on the carrier can be changed or upgraded at any point of time and we are not going to go against First world nations so the operational capability we have right now with the carrier is more than sufficient for the neighborhood that we have for the time being at-least..
I have more faith in the navy and their acquisition process. There is probably a reason they chose these aircrafts complements for the carrier. The new indigenous one will not be operational until 2020 at-least so we cannot just simply sit down and twiddle our thumbs till then and Viraat would have been operational till 2018 either way ,So blaming that on Vikramaditya's delay is incorrect . Navy had no qualms buying foreign equipment to further its capabilities so if they have not bought the equipment you suggested there is probably a good reason behind it ...

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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> What do you mean by the carrier we are building is "neither a brand new carrier" , A brand new aircraft carrier can have a much larger fighter compliment than reworked Laoning and Vikramaditya because of its construction .



I meant Vikramaditya is not new, thought you were talking about that.



Star Wars said:


> Your opinion and your analysis, does not necessarily make it a reality it remains just that, an opinion . and again we do not really know the kind of work involved and what kind of maintenance will be required . Only those working and operating the carriers know whats really going on . So lets not speculate and make judgments over assumptions..



Just as we shouldn't find excuses for obvious waste of money, for limiting operational capability because of pride and ego issues or because insane planing and project management, but IN has shown all of this by procuring this carrier and developing N-LCA MK2. If you want to ignore that and close your eyes, it's up to you. 



Star Wars said:


> The Air wing on the carrier can be changed or upgraded at any point of time


Not after they decided to procure more Migs and operational squadrons of N-LCA, since they are aimed to have an operational life of at least 30 years too. IN was forced to take the first 16 x Migs and Ka 31 initially, because the carrier deal was linked to them. But they could have added more capable aircrafts in addition to them, while they were evaluating the airwing of IAC 1, which should be common to Vikramadityas. So now the ship has literally sailed and they are stuck to these airwings, with their operational limitations. 



Star Wars said:


> and we are not going to go against First world nations so the operational capability we have right now with the carrier is more than sufficient for the neighborhood that we have for the time being at-least..



Even Viraat and Sea Harriers are more than sufficient for the neighborhood, because there is no operational need for a carrier to fight them. IN could easily gain sea control with their normal surface fleet, since they are simply so much more capable than any other navy in the region. The could even attack Pakistans shores using Mig 29Ks from INS Hansa in Goa, no need for a carrier there eiter, so the neighborhood is not an argument to limit the capability of Vikramaditya. But when you keep in mind that our threat perception has changed and that sooner or later IN might be capable to fight back a Chinese surface fleet, you have to have carriers that can take on such a threat and that's not possible by limiting our smaller carriers with less capable aircrafts!


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> I meant Vikramaditya is not new, thought you were talking about that.
> Just as we shouldn't find excuses for obvious waste of money, for limiting operational capability because of pride and ego issues or because insane planing and project management, but IN has shown all of this by procuring this carrier and developing N-LCA MK2. If you want to ignore that and close your eyes, it's up to you.



So...my eyes are closed and am blind with my pride and ego because i disagree with you ? i expected better from you .... clearly someone here thinks he is smarter than the Indian Navy which i find quiet hilarious  . You are a knowledgeable person but don't let that go to your head. 



> Not after they decided to procure more Migs and operational squadrons of N-LCA, since they are aimed to have an operational life of at least 30 years too. IN was forced to take the first 16 x Migs and Ka 31 initially, because the carrier deal was linked to them. But they could have added more capable aircrafts in addition to them, while they were evaluating the airwing of IAC 1, which should be common to Vikramadityas. So now the ship has literally sailed and they are stuck to these airwings, with their operational limitations.



It was also part of the deal for a reason , and how do you know N-LCA will not be operationally capable when N-LCA is still in trial phase and we do not even know when the aircrafts will be inducted . The Migs and Ka-31s are not going to remain there for 30 years , they are going to be eventually upgraded and the aircraft compliment changed as time progresses and as we have access to better systems . Just because the carrier deal was inked with them does not mean we are stuck with these aircrafts for the rest of the carriers life ..



> Even Viraat and Sea Harriers are more than sufficient for the neighborhood, because there is no operational need for a carrier to fight them. IN could easily gain sea control with their normal surface fleet, since they are simply so much more capable than any other navy in the region. The could even attack Pakistans shores using Mig 29Ks from INS Hansa in Goa, no need for a carrier there eiter, so the neighborhood is not an argument to limit the capability of Vikramaditya. But when you keep in mind that our threat perception has changed and that sooner or later IN might be capable to fight back a Chinese surface fleet, you have to have carriers that can take on such a threat and that's not possible by limiting our smaller carriers with less capable aircrafts!



Seaharriers ? Viraat and Sea harriers are pretty much obsolete and any Destroyer or frigate with a considerable air defense system will be a threat to them . SO lets not even talk about Viraat . The Chinese navy does not have access to carriers and will not be able to operationally effectively deploy them for another decade or so.Vikramaditya with its complement of aircrafts and its Naval escorts should be a formidable fighting force for the Chinese navy to counter . Unless and until we are going up against western navies we should be fine ...


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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> So...my eyes are closed and am blind with my pride and ego because i disagree with you ?


Where did I said that? But you tried to justify the cost-overruns that even CAG has slamed with the faith you have in IN and their competence. I only showed you that their competence is provenly flawed (just as I showed you that they could had got far more capable aircrafts and systems), when you look at the reality but if you admit that or not is up to you of course.



Star Wars said:


> It was also part of the deal for a reason


Of course, because the Russians wanted to make money and they needed us to fund the Mig 29K and several modernisations, which otherwise would had been paid only by Russian navy. That's why they offered us the carrier for free with the condition to buy Russian aircrafts.



Star Wars said:


> how do you know N-LCA will not be operationally capable when N-LCA is still in trial phase and we do not even know when the aircrafts will be inducted.


From statements of IN officials, from the fact that it won't have more hardpoints, or that the ski-jump take off will limit it's payload further than it already is. Once again, we do have infos and we can judge them or simply ignore them.



Star Wars said:


> Just because the carrier deal was inked with them does not mean we are stuck with these aircrafts for the rest of the carriers life ..


As I explained earlier, not the fact that the deal was linked to them, but the fact that we chose additional aircrafts that will be used and IAC 1 makes clear that they will be base of the fleet for these carriers over their operational life. You can of course upgrade certain systems, but you can't counter design flaws, that makes them inferior compared to competitors. Even with AESA radar, the Mig will never be a Rafale or an F18SH.



Star Wars said:


> The Chinese navy does not have access to carriers and will not be able to operationally effectively deploy them for another decade or so.



 Which shows your level of denial. They have a carrier available today, have succesfully developed carrier fighter varients, have different naval helicopters for ASW or AEW roles, are developing catapults and catapult capable AEW aircrafts, are training with Brazilian navy for carrier operations, have credible access to the Ukraine forces and industry for experience and techs and what is most worrisome are developinh stealth aircrafts for their carriers.
All we have is, decades of experience with older carriers and in future 2 carriers that will carry roughly the ammount of aircrafts a single Chinese carrier will have.[/quote]


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> Where did I said that? But you tried to justify the cost-overruns that even CAG has slamed with the faith you have in IN and their competence. I only showed you that their competence is provenly flawed (just as I showed you that they could had got far more capable aircrafts and systems), when you look at the reality but if you admit that or not is up to you of course.



I am not justifying cost over runs, am just justifying the fact that Navy paid the amount because it knows that the amount payed worth be worth it .. You did not show anything till now except your opinions which i disagreed with .



> Of course, because the Russians wanted to make money and they needed us to fund the Mig 29K and several modernizations, which otherwise would had been paid only by Russian navy. That's why they offered us the carrier for free with the condition to buy Russian aircrafts.



Am not talking about Russians , am talking about the IN



> From statements of IN officials, from the fact that it won't have more hardpoints, or that the ski-jump take off will limit it's payload further than it already is. Once again, we do have infos and we can judge them or simply ignore them.



Its good either way , we need to induct indigenous platforms more to support our local defense industries . It will only benefit us later . But of course you would want us to waste money on foreign equipment for temporary gains.



> As I explained earlier, not the fact that the deal was linked to them, but the fact that we chose additional aircrafts that will be used and IAC 1 makes clear that they will be base of the fleet for these carriers over their operational life. You can of course upgrade certain systems, but you can't counter design flaws, that makes them inferior compared to competitors. Even with AESA radar, the Mig will never be a Rafale or an F18SH.



You won't be seeing the same fighters and Heli's operating of Vikramaditya 20 years from now . The AEW Heli's will most probably be replaced later on as IN gets access to better systems . The IN never shies away from better equipment . If they are taking inferior ones as you suggest there is a good reason behind it.



> Which shows your level of denial. They have a carrier available today, have succesfully developed carrier fighter varients, have different naval helicopters for ASW or AEW roles, are developing catapults and catapult capable AEW aircrafts, are training with Brazilian navy for carrier operations, have credible access to the Ukraine forces and industry for experience and techs and what is most worrisome are developinh stealth aircrafts for their carriers.
> All we have is, decades of experience with older carriers and in future 2 carriers that will carry roughly the ammount of aircrafts a single Chinese carrier will have.



If you are talking about Laoning, i already suggested that in the previous post , so I would expected you to read it before making judgments about me(looks more like you are good at making judgments on everyone, including your own navy ). Laoning is a training carrier and will be used for just that, for training . The brand new carriers Chinese are building will take more than a decade to be fully operational and it will take far more time to get used to carrier operations and develop plans and doctrines for those carriers . As for all the stuff they are developing let them first develop them and get them in working order . We are also developing a whole lot of things and they're also developing a whole lot of things .


Vikramaditya useless,N-LCA useless,Indian Navy incompetant you sound like one of those Chinese trolls


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Star Wars said:


> Vikramaditya useless,N-LCA useless,Indian Navy incompetant you sound like one of those Chinese trolls



Dont argue with parrot.....indigenous developments are for national pride and ego only .

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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> I am not justifying cost over runs, am just justifying the fact that Navy paid the amount because it knows that the amount payed worth be worth it



Which doesn't make sense, since they never intended to pay that much for the carrier, because their initial estimates and those of the Russians of course were far lower. You can also add the years of delays, which also made it less worth it, because the initial plan was to use it as a stop gap till IAC 1 will be available and to train pilots and crews in the mean time. But now the carrier is more than 5 years delayed and has far higher cost at the same time. So they didn't paid anything based on what they knew, they just paid it because they couldn't back out anymore (too big to fail) and not because it still worth it as they planned it.



Star Wars said:


> Am not talking about Russians , am talking about the IN



But IN had not choice, so no matter what they wanted, they had to take Migs and Kamov helicopter. We even know that IN initially wanted naval MKIs and not Migs, or that they asked Boeing and Dassault for informations on the use of their fighters on Vikramaditya. But at the end they sticked to it with the prospect to get the carrier at cheap or at least reasonable cost, which didn't turned out as they hoped.
As I said, the only decision they could had changed, was to go for the follow orders and for N-LCA, or to make the carriers more capable by adding other aircrafts, but they didn't.



Star Wars said:


> Its good either way , we need to induct indigenous platforms more to support our local defense industries . It will only benefit us later .



Another justification of wasting money for pride reasons! IN don't need a modest carrier fighter for operational terms, nor do we need an operational carrier fighter version to develop experience in navalising fighters. We already do it with the N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrators. That exactly what tech demonstrator programs are used all over the world! To gain experience with new capabilities, BUT WITHOUT wasting too much time and money when there is no useful requirement for them at the moment. So all IN achieves with N-LCA MK2 development is, making their airwing less capable as it could be, complicating the LCA program as a whole by adding mixing their requirements with IAFs and wasting money that could had been used for more useful arms and techs.



Star Wars said:


> Laoning is a training carrier and will be used for just that, for training .



Which is nonsense, since there is nothing like a training carrier! Either you induct a carrier to operational service and train your crew and pilots on it, at operations on high seas, or you just have a stationary carrier to train and test there. The carrier is operational, they have plenty of aircrafts available which can be deployed to full operational status anytime they want.
It's like saying INS Chakra is only a training sub, because it's prime use today was to train crews in operations of nuclear submarines and nobody stops us from using torpedos or missiles from it or? Exactly, just as nothing stops PLAN to use the carrier with a complete airwing and the CBG that it already has to deploy it to the Indian Ocean area if needed (although it's main aim will be the defence of Chinas coastlines, but that's another issue).
So the fact is, they have a carrier and all necessary capabilities today, which already are superior to what IN has and they already plan with NG fighters and capabilities, while IN is wasting time and money with N-LCA.



Star Wars said:


> I am not justifying cost over runs, am just justifying the fact that Navy paid the amount because it knows that the amount payed worth be worth it



Which doesn't make sense, since they never intended to pay that much for the carrier, because their initial estimates and those of the Russians of course were far lower. You can also add the years of delays, which also made it less worth it, because the initial plan was to use it as a stop gap till IAC 1 will be available and to train pilots and crews in the mean time. But now the carrier is more than 5 years delayed and has far higher cost at the same time. So they didn't paid anything based on what they knew, they just paid it because they couldn't back out anymore (too big to fail) and not because it still worth it as they planned it.



Star Wars said:


> Am not talking about Russians , am talking about the IN


But IN had not choice, so no matter what they wanted, they had to take Migs and Kamov helicopter. We even know that IN initially wanted naval MKIs and not Migs, or that they asked Boeing and Dassault for informations on the use of their fighters on Vikramaditya. But at the end they sticked to it with the prospect to get the carrier at cheap or at least reasonable cost, which didn't turned out as they hoped.
As I said, the only decision they could had changed, was to go for the follow orders and for N-LCA, or to make the carriers more capable by adding other aircrafts, but they didn't.



Star Wars said:


> Its good either way , we need to induct indigenous platforms more to support our local defense industries . It will only benefit us later .



Another justification of wasting money for pride reasons! IN don't need a modest (that's how they call it!) carrier fighter for operational needs, nor do we need an operational carrier fighter version to develop experience in navalising fighters. We already do it with the N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrators. That exactly what tech demonstrator programs are used all over the world! To gain experience with new capabilities, BUT WITHOUT wasting too much time and money when there is no useful requirement for them at the moment. So all IN achieves with N-LCA MK2 development is, making their airwing less capable as it could be, complicating the LCA program as a whole by adding mixing their requirements with IAFs and wasting money that could had been used for more useful arms and techs.



Star Wars said:


> Vikramaditya useless,N-LCA useless,Indian Navy incompetant you sound like one of those Chinese trolls


A troll is usually someone that is ignoring facts and reality, not the one that show it. And I didn't said Vikramaditya is useless, it's operationally limited and finacial disaster!


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

sancho said:


> A troll is usually someone that is ignoring facts and reality, not the one that show it. And I didn't said Vikramaditya is useless, it's operationally limited and finacial disaster!



So indian navy is the biggest troll as per your standard. Sacho babu you must show your facts and reality to Indian navy because they have opposite opinion. Vikramaditya is not perfect, but Indian Navy deemed it to be the best of the options it had.


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## Capt.Popeye

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> So indian navy is the biggest troll as per your standard. Sacho babu you must show your facts and reality to Indian navy because they have opposite opinion. Vikramaditya is not perfect, but Indian Navy deemed it to be the best of the options it had.




HeHeHe, a nice exchange of posts going on; like a "ping-pong" match........

In uniform; I had a chance to meet up with Admirals, but now on the internet, I also get to meet with "Armchair Admirals" whose (virtual) Fleets can navigate through the infinite spans of 'Cyber-Space'.

So; is it time to disband the IN and send all its Mariners into the oblivion of _demobbed _Warriors?

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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> Which doesn't make sense, since they never intended to pay that much for the carrier, because their initial estimates and those of the Russians of course were far lower. You can also add the years of delays, which also made it less worth it, because the initial plan was to use it as a stop gap till IAC 1 will be available and to train pilots and crews in the mean time. But now the carrier is more than 5 years delayed and has far higher cost at the same time. So they didn't paid anything based on what they knew, they just paid it because they couldn't back out anymore (too big to fail) and not because it still worth it as they planned it.



Russia clearly gave the option to bail out and India could have bailed out early on during cost over runs and we came very very close to bailing out of the carrier program , so no we were not stuck with it . And from what i know Vikrmaditya was supposed to replace Viraat and was not supposed to be used as stop gap till IAC1 as you suggested .Its an Aircraft Carrier with a full compliment of aircrafts . One has to be stupid to claim it is useless or even suggest anything close to it.



> But IN had not choice, so no matter what they wanted, they had to take Migs and Kamov helicopter. We even know that IN initially wanted naval MKIs and not Migs, or that they asked Boeing and Dassault for informations on the use of their fighters on Vikramaditya. But at the end they sticked to it with the prospect to get the carrier at cheap or at least reasonable cost, which didn't turned out as they hoped.
> As I said, the only decision they could had changed, was to go for the follow orders and for N-LCA, or to make the carriers more capable by adding other aircrafts, but they didn't.



Is there any source to suggest India wanted Mki's and not Migs ? These aircrafts are not going to stay the same for next 30 years as better system come up they will be upgraded or replaced . IN has no compulsion to keep running the same systems for the next 30 years or so.



> Another justification of wasting money for pride reasons!



No, you are just being stupid here . You would rather see India enslaved to foreign suppliers for rest of their lives than learn to develop and use their own equipment.



> Which is nonsense, since there is nothing like a training carrier!
> Either you induct a carrier to operational service and train your crew and pilots on it, at operations on high seas, or you just have a stationary carrier to train and test there. The carrier is operational, they have plenty of aircrafts available which can be deployed to full operational status anytime they want.
> It's like saying INS Chakra is only a training sub, because it's prime use today was to train crews in operations of nuclear submarines and nobody stops us from using torpedos or missiles from it or? Exactly, just as nothing stops PLAN to use the carrier with a complete airwing and the CBG that it already has to deploy it to the Indian Ocean area if needed (although it's main aim will be the defence of Chinas coastlines, but that's another issue).
> So the fact is, they have a carrier and all necessary capabilities today, which already are superior to what IN has and they already plan with NG fighters and capabilities, while IN is wasting time and money with N-LCA.



http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424053111903635604576472014072981554
from the following link
First Chinese Carrier Task Force Passes The Test
*In 2011 China confirmed that the Liaoning will primarily be a training carrier.

The Aviationist » Photo of India’s new Aircraft Carrier Battle Group. Better than China’s?
*

Go tell that to Chinese . Its a training carrier as claimed by Chinese themselves . You just cant build and learn to fully operate aircraft carriers in 3 years, thats just a wet dream.



> A troll is usually someone that is ignoring facts and reality, not the one that show it. And I didn't said Vikramaditya is useless, it's operationally limited and finacial disaster!



Or someone who claims his opinions are reality and calls everyone else blind , false pride etc... etc... because they disagreed with you . 



Capt.Popeye said:


> HeHeHe, a nice exchange of posts going on; like a "ping-pong" match........
> 
> In uniform; I had a chance to meet up with Admirals, but now on the internet, I also get to meet with "Armchair Admirals" whose (virtual) Fleets can navigate through the infinite spans of 'Cyber-Space'.
> 
> So; is it time to disband the IN and send all its Mariners into the oblivion of _demobbed _Warriors?



DRDO or HAL ko hi disband kar do sab kuch bahar sai hi khareedenge

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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> No, you are just being stupid here . You would rather see India enslaved to foreign suppliers for rest of their lives than learn to develop and use their own equipment.



Typical reply when pride blinds people and they have no arguments left. Enslaved to foreign suppliers lol what nonsese! 
Wake up buddy, we need foreign help to design N-LCA, we need foreign help to fix the problems of the fighter, we need foreign help to fix and develop our puls doppler radar, we need foreign help to design and develop both indigenous carriers..., so we remain dependent on foreign support and equipment for years anyway, no matter if we call the developments indigenous or not. A Mig 29K with an indigenous radar and engine is more useful for IN than N-LCA, while a new IAC 1 is more worth the money than a refurbished Russian carrier at the same cost. Just as a naval AMCA development would make a lot of sense for IN's future, while N-LCA MK2 is just nonsense in all possible areas. 
It's not the origin that makes a procurement or development useful and worth it, but if it makes operational and finacial sense!


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## Reza Ali

Naree Taqbeer Allah hu Akber


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## Capt.Popeye

@Star Wars; you have made some correct points in post#426

1. India could have exited the Gorshkov project when the cost and time over-runs were climbing rapidly. Actually there was great deal of political pressure to do so. But that did not take place. Since some of the reasons for the time and cost over-runs could be laid at India's doorstep. Secondly and most importantly, exit and seek which alternate option? There was none. Period.

2. IN did not seek a Naval version of the MKI. Because it could not be operated effectively from Gorshkov. The first and last choice of aircraft was the MiG. And the correctness of that choice was validated when the Russians themselves moth-balled the Flanker option for their own Navy, after the IN had ordered its Fulcrums.

3.The fact of the matter is that Varyag/Liaoning is still a Training Carrier and will continue to be so for some more time because it is being operated by a Navy with no previous Carrier Operations. That is nothing for anybody to be ashamed of. For that matter, even Vikramaditya is now a Training Carrier (but to a far lesser extent) because some _hang-over_ of Carrier Ops and related SOPs are still existing in the IN, save for the re-conversion from STOVL to STOBAR. But that is less of a leap and is more of a technical one and less of a doctrinal one. Plus the fact that the Viraat is still able to soldier on, is a 'cushion'.

Otherwise, I did find the exchange of posts (at least from one side) to be amusing rather than edifying.

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## sancho

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Vikramaditya is not perfect, but Indian Navy deemed it to be the best of the options it had.



The best option that they had maybe, by the lack of other 2nd had carriers back then, but that is not the issue! The mistake was not to go for the carrier, but to stick with the deal when they realized that it goes far away from the initial timelines and cost estimates! Just as IN simply did not took the best available options for the airwing to take on the coming threat of PLAN. So one has to criticize them for the waste of money on the one side and if they stick to the carrier, not to make it as capable as possible!


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> Typical reply when pride blinds people and they have no arguments left. Enslaved to foreign suppliers lol what nonsese!
> Wake up buddy, we need foreign help to design N-LCA, we need foreign help to fix the problems of the fighter, we need foreign help to fix and develop our puls doppler radar, we need foreign help to design and develop both indigenous carriers..., so we remain dependent on foreign support and equipment for years anyway, no matter if we call the developments indigenous or not. A Mig 29K with an indigenous radar and engine is more useful for IN than N-LCA, while a new IAC 1 is more worth the money than a refurbished Russian carrier at the same cost. Just as a naval AMCA development would make a lot of sense for IN's future, while N-LCA MK2 is just nonsense in all possible areas.
> It's not the origin that makes a procurement or development useful and worth it, but if it makes operational and finacial sense!



*facepalm* . The person who claims to know better than the IN is blaming me for my "*blind pride*"  Oh boy do i trust some dude on the Internet or the Indian Navy , tough choice . I was not against foreign equipment am simply supporting local defense industries so that they may get better in time , you cannot support local defense industries without buying their equipment . Chinese had their problems but now it has put them in a massive advantage.


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## sancho

Capt.Popeye said:


> And the correctness of that choice was validated when the Russians themselves moth-balled the Flanker option for their own Navy, after the IN had ordered its Fulcrums.



Not really, since even Russian navy takes the Mig 29K s only as stop gaps, because they didn't want to spend more on the upgrades of the Su 33s, while the long term aim are naval are NG aircrafts. They simply took the benefits of us having no choice than to take the initial Migs, which results in far lower costs for them. We can see the same now at the Su 30SM too, which actually doesn't make sense for them since they purposely developed dedicated Flanker versions, but now prefer to choose the same version we took, to benefit from lower costs and soon even from similar upgrades.
And we might see similar when we want catapults from the US, if they will be combined with a US fighter deal as well.


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## Capt.Popeye

Ah Sancho, you seem to be still riding your favorite hobby-horse in the manner of Senor Don Quixote (the master of _Sancho_ Panza) tilting at Windmills, here and there.


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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> I was not against foreign equipment am simply supporting local defense industries so that they may get better in time , you cannot support local defense industries without buying their equipment .



And again the usual silly claims.  Again, N-LCA MK2 does not give the industry anything, that they wouldn't get through a tech demo program, since it's only the navalising part that is new, normal upgrades like improved avionics or radar will be developed for the air force version anyway. That's why I said, IN would benefit far more, if they had just initiated the tech demo program, while aimed on using indigenous engines and radars for customized Mig 29Ks => improving the naval design and development capability at the one side and the operational capability of their carriers on the other! Simple and effective, but one can't brag about having an indigenous carrier fighter anymore of course. 



Capt.Popeye said:


> Ah Sancho, you seem to be still riding your favorite hobby-horse in the manner of Senor Don Quixote (the master of _Sancho_ Panza) tilting at Windmills, here and there.



Somebody has to show the other side and only because it's difficult, doesn't mean that one should not try. But that doesn't change the fact that Russian navy had other intentions with the Migs than you might think isn't it?


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> And again the usual silly claims.  Again, N-LCA MK2 does not give the industry anything, that they wouldn't get through a tech demo program, since it's only the navalising part that is new, normal upgrades like improved avionics or radar will be developed for the air force version anyway. That's why I said, IN would benefit far more, if they had just initiated the tech demo program, while aimed on using indigenous engines and radars for customized Mig 29Ks => improving the naval design and development capability at the one side and the operational capability of their carriers on the other! Simple and effective, but one can't brag about having an indigenous carrier fighter anymore of course.



Riiight ....now IN is buying Naval variant of LCA just to brag about an indigenous fighter carrier . this is rather new from you.
Which Brings back to my earlier question, why would Navy select Naval LCA if it did not see any benefit in this. Please do not reply with " *they are incompetent* " .


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Capt.Popeye said:


> HeHeHe, a nice exchange of posts going on; like a "ping-pong" match........
> 
> In uniform; I had a chance to meet up with Admirals, but now on the internet, I also get to meet with "Armchair Admirals" whose (virtual) Fleets can navigate through the infinite spans of 'Cyber-Space'.
> 
> So; is it time to disband the IN and send all its Mariners into the oblivion of _demobbed _Warriors?




As per Sacho Babu, we indians are incompetent ilk who does not know how to rule and take productive decisions. Sacho Babu would have been the proudest citizen under britishers.



Star Wars said:


> Which Brings back to my earlier question, *why would Navy select Naval LCA if it did not see any benefit in this*. Please do not reply with " *they are incompetent* " .



Dont you know?? .....Indian Pride and Indian ego!!


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## Water Car Engineer



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## IndoUS

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Mate this isn't Mumbai, where is this from?


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## Water Car Engineer

IndoUS said:


> Mate this isn't Mumbai, where is this from?



Karwar naval base, Karnataka

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## Agent_47



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## RPK




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## IND151

Livefist: Stunning Views In Indian Navy's Official New Vikramaditya Vid

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## trident2010

Nice pics. We should have 3 ACC at any given time once for Indian ocean, one for Arabian sea and one for Bay of Bengal.


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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> Which Brings back to my earlier question, why would Navy select Naval LCA if it did not see any benefit in this. Please do not reply with " *they are incompetent* " .



That's not from me, but as I told you from IN officials themselfs!



> *LCA-Navy Not What We Want, But It's Ours*
> 
> "_*It may not be what we want, **but it is our own aircraft*_," says the Indian Navy's Flag Officer Naval Aviation (FONA) Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai on the LCA Navy in an interview to FORCE magazine. He was asked how effective the LCA Navy would be for a carrier-based role given that it "only an eight ton platform". The officer's response: "_I wish wish we could straightaway develop a Rafale. But seriously, we have to look at the Indian Navy and it commitment towards indigenisation. I agree that we have made a modest start, but it has been a huge learning experience. *LCA Navy will remain a modest platform* with an uprated engine which will give us adequate capability at sea. While it is easy to buy from abroad, sometimes it is extremely difficult to support those platforms. _*Our past experiences tell us that it is worth committing resources to develop our own assets*."



Livefist: "LCA-Navy Not What We Want, But It's Ours": FONA






(Article of former Indian Navy admiral Arun Prakash)


As I said...

...no operational importance that makes the fighter special for IN
...support for Indian industry to develop an "own" naval carrier fighter
...pride factor of putting India in an elite club


You have the idea that only because IN or any other of the forces takes a decision, it must be the only right thing to do and definitely right, but they are just humans like us and they makes mistakes too. When you look back at the recent years you will find plenty of such mistakes or incompetences in IN tenders and procurements:

- P75 competition, selecting a modern SSK without AIP (IN infact is one of the few navies today that is inducting modern subs without that capability, while our opponents already have it!), while it is a requirement in the P75I now)
- the mentioned misjudgement of their technical teams, on how much work must be done on the carrier and how much it will cost
- the fact that they kept procuring it, although it has nearly 6 years delay and more than twice the costs
- procuring it without air defence guns and now after commissioning setting up a tender (I will give IN the credit that the Barak 8 development delay was not their fault though)
- procuring the Migs without weapons, which limited the training to basic flight tests, since neither weapon trials, nor take off or landings could be trained by the lack of shore based facilities and of course the lack of the carrier
- not being able to set up propper RFIs/RFPs for ASW helicopters, MRMR aircrafts or LDPs, where the vendors don't even know what the navy wants, because the specs are so broad that several different aircrafts or vessels should fit the bill

Just to name a few and I am not blaming IN or Indian forces alone, such mistakes happen all over the world (German army is the only force in the world, that has a modern combat helicopter, without a chinmounted gun, because a smart official once thought that a gun pod is enough, the air force evaluated and even started the procurement of a Global Hawk varient, although it doesn't comply to Europen laws for the use in civil airspace and the deal needed to be cancelled after millions were spent...)

But in India, the pride factor for indigenous developments play a big role too, be it for the forces, even more for the industry and even for a lot of forumers. But when that comes in, rational thinking goes away and then we waste money on N-LCA, let DRDO develop radar, engine and other core parts of LCA instead of taking off the shelf parts first, or let them dream about AMCA and AWACS India before they even have delivered the predecessor developments...and at the end of the day we are weaker and not stronger, because we wanted too much and the developments got delayed or even failed.
I want indigenous developments and a time when we see 70 to 80% of Indian or joint developed arms too, but that's not going to happen with blind pride, but with being effective! Be it by making developments in a more simpler way, or by easing tenders to save time and money.

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## Sam Manekshaw

Water Car Engineer said:


> Karwar naval base, Karnataka


yeah u can see in google map too.


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> LCA Navy will remain a modest platform with an uprated engine which will give us adequate capability at sea.
> While it is easy to buy from abroad, sometimes it is extremely difficult to support those platforms. Our past experiences tell us that it is worth committing resources to develop our own assets."



That explains it , its far more than Pride factor as you have been repeatedly suggesting . these people have been in the Navy for decades and have the experience to make the right decisions. Clearly from the above quote the navy believes the resources and support they provide now will be far more helpful later on .. Its simply stupid that you believe they are buying an indigenous system because of "Pride". Navy clearly See's it very differently


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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> That explains it , its far more than Pride factor as you have been repeatedly suggesting



Oh please don't try to justify it now by taking only parts of what I said! I never said it's only the pride factor, but that they want to support the indigenous naval industry, which however is possible with a tech demo program too, while the N-LCA MK2 development is as shown only based on pride, since it neither serves an operational, nor a development purpose.


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> Oh please don't try to justify it now by taking only parts of what I said! I never said it's only the pride factor, but that they want to support the indigenous naval industry, which however is possible with a tech demo program too, while the N-LCA MK2 development is as shown only based on pride, since it neither serves an operational, nor a development purpose.



AM just quoting what the navy themselves says , You disagree with them is of your opinion . Sorry i just don;t believe people serving in the navy does things for the sake of Pride , they aren't so shallow minded ..


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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> AM just quoting what the navy themselves says , You disagree with them is of your opinion . Sorry i just don;t believe people serving in the navy does things for the sake of Pride , they aren't so shallow minded ..



It doesn't matter if you leave out half of what I said, or what they said, the fact is your are leaving things out to serve your purpose. That's why you miss that I don't disagree with them on the capability of N-LCA, nor that it's important to support the Indian industry to develop naval fighter know how. The only point that I ctiticize is, that they wanted MK2 version as propper carrier fighters, without an operational need for it. 
Also IAF don't wanted to give IN carrier fighters or the maritime attack fighter squardon, just as they still don't want to give IA helicopters, not because they are more useful under them, but just to have them! So pride does matter for the forces when it comes to their toys, especially when it's something special like a carrier of course or to have an indigenous carrier fighter.


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> It doesn't matter if you leave out half of what I said, or what they said, the fact is your are leaving things out to serve your purpose. That's why you miss that I don't disagree with them on the capability of N-LCA, nor that it's important to support the Indian industry to develop naval fighter know how. The only point that I ctiticize is, that they wanted MK2 version as propper carrier fighters, without an operational need for it.
> Also IAF don't wanted to give IN carrier fighters or the maritime attack fighter squardon, just as they still don't want to give IA helicopters, not because they are more useful under them, but just to have them! So pride does matter for the forces when it comes to their toys, especially when it's something special like a carrier of course or to have an indigenous carrier fighter.



I just quoted what i wanted to point out , the rest of your post is something which has been repeated a dozen times at least . You stick to your opinions of Navy having a "Pride" factor which is Ridicules in every conceivable way . Your talking about people who have served Decades in the Navy , they know what they are talking about .My point only proves that the Navy See's the long term benefits of supporting a domestic industry ...


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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> I just quoted what *i* wanted to point out


Exactly and not what is the the obvious reality, even according to IN and what did I told you earlier?



sancho said:


> A troll is usually someone that is ignoring facts and reality



So I guess that is clear now as well.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

*Baccho What is Indigenisation for?*


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> Exactly and not what is the the obvious reality, even according to IN and what did I told you earlier?
> 
> So I guess that is clear now as well.



Someone here think he is smarter than folks who have worked decades in the navy and he calls me a troll


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## sancho

Star Wars said:


> Someone here think he is smarter than folks who have worked decades in the navy and he calls me a troll



Don't have to since IN officials admit why they want N-LCA or what it is meant to be, so I am only stating fact, you however are ignoring what they said and only look at that what you want to see and that's as I said is troll behaviour.


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## Star Wars

sancho said:


> Don't have to since IN officials admit why they want N-LCA or what it is meant to be, so I am only stating fact, you however are ignoring what they said and only look at that what you want to see and that's as I said is troll behaviour.



 , no.... you said the Navy was incompetent and was selecting N-LCA because of Pride , thats classic troll behavior . Navy knows what its doing , leave them to their work .


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## zootinali

I m not sure if this video has been posted here , just wanted to share


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## Abingdonboy

My latest video:

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## Restore Sanity Please

I just found this nice video on YouTube about INS Vikramaditya. Shows quite a bit of it's internals also. Russian with English sub-titles.


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## KalaGhoda

youtube dot you know what/watch?v=1a73VpDLzBE

I wanna play this song from the decks of ins vikky.

for non youtube guys here is the link :

last dot ef em/music/Demons+&+Wizards/_/Beneath+These+Waves+%28edit%29

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## hiphop

*HMS Monmouth helps INS Vikramaditya through Channel while sailing towards India.*

http://***************/attachments/b1-jpg.1560/http://***************/attachments/b2-jpg.1561/

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## Echo_419

hiphop said:


> *HMS Monmouth helps INS Vikramaditya through Channel while sailing towards India.*
> 
> http://***************/attachments/b1-jpg.1560/http://***************/attachments/b2-jpg.1561/



Good feast it's on their part & isn't this pic a little bit old


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## hiphop

Echo_419 said:


> Good feast it's on their part & isn't this pic a little bit old


Don't know much was searching on Google about something found this pictures and some pictures about Tejas on a Forum Sooo 
HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 649


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## kurup

Echo_419 said:


> Good feast it's on their part & isn't this pic a little bit old



Yes ..... taken during vikky's voyage from Russia to India .


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## Jayanta

Any news of INS Vikrant???


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## nair

Jayanta said:


> Any news of INS Vikrant???


 
Getting scrapped..... may be in few months she will be history.......


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## Robinhood Pandey

nair said:


> Getting scrapped..... may be in few months she will be history.......



He is asking about IAC1 

Useless think tank kahi ke


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## nair

Robinhood Pandey said:


> He is asking about IAC1
> 
> Useless think tank kahi ke



Lol..... that is slowly getting ready for her big day (which is 5 years ahead)

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## Techy

MIG-29K with 2 x 1,100 litre and 1 x 2,150 litre fuel tank:

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## kaykay

Techy said:


> MIG-29K with 2 x 1,100 litre and 1 x 2,150 litre fuel tank:


Are those 2 Kh-35? And 2 BVRs? Awesome load it is. Thanks for the pic though.


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## Techy

kaykay said:


> Are those 2 Kh-35? And 2 BVRs? Awesome load it is. Thanks for the pic though.


It appears Armament is 2xKh-35E and 2xR-73.

Similar image of another Mig-29K suggests the same (old image though):

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