# Hangor Class Submarine Project | Updates & Discussions



## nadeemkhan110

The Type-039/041 "Yuan" class conventional submarine, likely the basis for the export-centric S20. Photo credit: Wikipedia
Bilal Khan -
*PAKISTAN MINISTRY OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION CONFIRMS SUBMARINE CONTRACT*
The Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) confirmed in its 2014-2015 report that a contract to construct new generation submarines for the Pakistan Navy was signed in April 2015. While no specific timelines were given (in regards to production and delivery), the MoDP’s report is genuine confirmation that the long-awaited program is assuredly in the procurement pipeline.

Pakistan began negotiating with China for new submarines in 2011, when at the time it was reported that the Pakistan Navy was interested in six ships powered by air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems. In April 2015, the Government of Pakistan formally approved the purchase of eight Chinese AIP submarines, and in July 2015 it was reported that the contract had been forwarded to Beijing, which would then greenlight Pakistan’s proposed financing arrangements.

In April 2016, the Pakistan Navy’s Commander of Logistics, Rear Admiral Syed Imdad Imam Jafri, praised Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) for winning a contract to produce four of the eight AIP submarines. In fact, Rear Admiral Jafri’s statements not only confirmed that the submarine deal was live, but that Pakistan was still committed to procuring AIP-equipped submarines. This is an important aspect, considering the tactical advantages borne by AIP systems, as discussed in an earlier Quwa article:

AIP technology allows SSKs to operate underwater without snorkeling for much longer periods of time, potentially as long as multiple weeks. In addition, AIP technology helps in keeping the submarine quiet, thus reducing its acoustic signature, a key advantage in subsurface combat where sound (i.e. acoustics) is the main method of detection and engagement. These advantages are more profound in the South Asian maritime theatre where there is close proximity between the two powers. For Pakistan, the amount of time a submarine can remain undetected will matter more than how far it can travel.

Beyond the fact that the submarine deal with China was signed and that KSEW will produce four of the eight ships, there are no official details, especially in regards to the submarine’s design, specifications, sensor suite, weapons inventory, or even the origin or design of its AIP system. It is believed that Pakistan’s submarines will be derived from the S20, the export variant of the Type 039A/Type 041. However, the details can only be left for speculation, at least at this stage. That said, it would be safe to assume that the Pakistan Navy will aim to position these submarines as strategic assets (via nuclear-tipped land attack cruise missiles), so as to complete Pakistan’s second-strike triad.

Overall, the Pakistan Navy’s submarine modernization roadmap is promising. With the Agosta 90Bs placed in the upgrade pipeline (with the Turkish shipbuilder STM’s support), the inclusion of these eight Chinese submarines will go a significant way in strengthening the Pakistan Navy’s anti-access and area denial (A2/AD) capabilities. In fact, there are not many countries that would boast as many as 11 AIP-powered submarines.
SOURCE:quwa.org

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## maximuswarrior

For Pakistan, the procurement of subs is perhaps the biggest project in the coming years. I would rate it higher than JF-17 and all other projects. This procurement will truly ensure our second strike capability. AIP is a God gifted tech for a country like Pakistan. The advantages are enormous. The cost aspect is also very favorable. The icing on the cake is that some will be built at KSEW.

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## jetstar

maximuswarrior said:


> For Pakistan, the procurement of subs is perhaps the biggest project in the coming years. I would rate it higher than JF-17 and all other projects. This procurement will truly ensure our second strike capability. AIP is a God gifted tech for a country like Pakistan. The advantages are enormous. The cost aspect is also very favorable. The icing on the cake is that some will be built at KSEW.


*Yes this is a great achievements more then others new generation submarine 
but now we need Nuclear Submarine*

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## nadeemkhan110

jetstar said:


> *Yes this is a great achievements more then others new generation submarine
> but now we need Nuclear Submarine*


This submarine can also carry nuclear weapon as you read in this article



nadeemkhan110 said:


> However, the details can only be left for speculation, at least at this stage. That said, it would be safe to assume that the Pakistan Navy will aim to position these submarines as strategic assets (via nuclear-tipped land attack cruise missiles), so as to complete Pakistan’s second-strike triad.



*But Type 098 is a latest Strategic Nuclear Submarine*

*



*
*China’s qianzhan published an article to bare the mystery of China’s most advanced 098 strategic submarines.*

The article says: Previously, Liaoning Vice Governor Tan Zuojung disclosed at a public occasion that PLA navy has completed development of its fourth-generation nuclear submarine.

Some experts believe that the information is quite reliable. However, there has been no public appearance of nor has the US ever detected China’s third-generation nuclear submarines.

Type 098 nuclear submarine adopts electromagnetic propulsion with zero noise, very high speed and instant great increase in power.

The above is Chinese media’s report on the submarine. At the same time US satellite has also found that China is building two new-type 098 fourth-generation strategic nuclear submarines.

It proves that China is developing effective second-strike capabilities. If one 098 can carry 12 submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) carrying 3 independently targetable warheads each, the two submarines under construction have effective second-strike capabilities of launching 108 nuclear warheads.

For nuclear security, a country shall have not only well hidden land-based mobile ICBMs but also SLBMs carried by its strategic nuclear submarines hidden underwater in Oceans as so far no country in the world is able to detect all the nuclear submarines of another country. China’s mobile ICBMs and SLBMs will constitute quite adequate nuclear deterrence.

In addition, China has built an underground base for its nuclear submarines to make it even more difficult for its enemy to detect and destroy its nuclear submarine.

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## BetterPakistan

Great, been waiting for this news from months. I hope two of them will be nuclear one's.

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## shhh

BetterPakistan said:


> Great, been waiting for this news from months. I hope two of them will be nuclear one's.



We are already planning to build a nuclear sub by 2020 and that will be indigenous.

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## Mughal-Prince

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Type 098 nuclear submarine adopts electromagnetic propulsion with zero noise, very high speed and instant great increase in power.



It's been long I have seen it in a science program on TV about electromagnetic propulsion system which has been built by Japs and it was pretty slow but that was around 16+ years earlier. If there is any one who has any information regarding advances of this technologies and its required power source.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

http://www.therichest.com/featured/the-deadliest-submarines-in-the-world/

We're getting #5

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## Muhammad Omar

nadeemkhan110 said:


> This submarine can also carry nuclear weapon as you read in this article
> 
> 
> *But Type 098 is a latest Strategic Nuclear Submarine*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *China’s qianzhan published an article to bare the mystery of China’s most advanced 098 strategic submarines.*
> 
> The article says: Previously, Liaoning Vice Governor Tan Zuojung disclosed at a public occasion that PLA navy has completed development of its fourth-generation nuclear submarine.
> 
> Some experts believe that the information is quite reliable. However, there has been no public appearance of nor has the US ever detected China’s third-generation nuclear submarines.
> 
> Type 098 nuclear submarine adopts electromagnetic propulsion with zero noise, very high speed and instant great increase in power.
> 
> The above is Chinese media’s report on the submarine. At the same time US satellite has also found that China is building two new-type 098 fourth-generation strategic nuclear submarines.
> 
> It proves that China is developing effective second-strike capabilities. If one 098 can carry 12 submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) carrying 3 independently targetable warheads each, the two submarines under construction have effective second-strike capabilities of launching 108 nuclear warheads.
> 
> For nuclear security, a country shall have not only well hidden land-based mobile ICBMs but also SLBMs carried by its strategic nuclear submarines hidden underwater in Oceans as so far no country in the world is able to detect all the nuclear submarines of another country. China’s mobile ICBMs and SLBMs will constitute quite adequate nuclear deterrence.
> 
> In addition, China has built an underground base for its nuclear submarines to make it even more difficult for its enemy to detect and destroy its nuclear submarine.



They already have Type 094 Nuke Sub i think we should Lease 1 or 2

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## Pandora

Shaheer ul haq said:


> We are already planning to build a nuclear sub by 2020 and that will be indigenous.



We dont have any indigenous sub let alone nuclear. It was a rumour started by a news paper quoting an unnamed source.



Muhammad Omar said:


> They already have Type 094 Nuke Sub i think we should Lease 1 or 2



We have no requirement for such subs as Yaun class tipped with babur can perform the same role. Nuclear subs are very noisy and cant operate without protection from surface combatants.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> http://www.therichest.com/featured/the-deadliest-submarines-in-the-world/
> 
> We're getting #5



No offence but we are not living in la la land. Type 93 is a nuclear sub and we are acquiring Type 039 Yuan class.

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## war&peace

smuhs1 said:


> We have no requirement for such subs as Yaun class tipped with babur can perform the same role. *Nuclear subs are very noisy* and cant operate without protection from surface combatants.


Factually incorrect.

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## Muhammad Omar

smuhs1 said:


> We dont have any indigenous sub let alone nuclear. It was a rumour started by a news paper quoting an unnamed source.
> 
> 
> 
> We have no requirement for such subs as Yaun class tipped with babur can perform the same role. Nuclear subs are very noisy and cant operate without protection from surface combatants.
> 
> 
> 
> No offence but we are not living in la la land. Type 93 is a nuclear sub and we are acquiring Type 039 Yuan class.



So is Babur ready for Naval role??


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

8 subs deal and around 10 years +++ delivery time is an overall bad deal tactically---.

Tactically---it should have been split---if not aircraft then between surface fleet and sub surface fleet---and then another deal signed after 5 years---.

The deal was signed in this manner is due to ' VERY ' large kickbacks---.

Otherwise---there were those in the system who had opposed such a large deal---spanned over 10 years time for obvious reasons.

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## Pandora

Muhammad Omar said:


> So is Babur ready for Naval role??



Look at the defence report that is being mentioned here as it clearly mentions a sea to land missile. So it is either in development or most likely ready but not being revealed. I think is a thread that has published the report on PDF couple of days back.

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## shhh

smuhs1 said:


> We dont have any indigenous sub let alone nuclear. It was a rumour started by a news paper quoting an unnamed source.



Ok.


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## khanasifm

statements w/o evidence

There is no way to get 8 subs in short span of time even China got 12 over multiple years , stop comparing third world countries with leading powers si h as US , European etc


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The arrival of the 6 Submarines would be a welcomed addition to capabilities of National Forces


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## The SC

China can build 4 in 4 years and Pakistan will build the other four in about 4/6 years, so the max is10 years with sea trials it might go up to 12 years, but it is more probable 10 years in all.. one should remember that these AIP Qing subs are some of the most sophisticated and modern subs outthere, they will be at least as heavy as the kilo subs or even much heavier if they are designed for the second strike capability, maybe just four of them while the remainig 4 will be hunter killers and conventional strke subs..


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

That would be far too long 2-3 Year range is more desirable 
5 Submarines made in China , and 1 made in Pakistan (2-3 Years)


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## ziaulislam

The SC said:


> China can build 4 in 4 years and Pakistan will build the other four in about 4/6 years, so the max is10 years with sea trials it might go up to 12 years, but it is more probable 10 years in all.. one should remember that these AIP Qing subs are some of the most sophisticated and modern subs outthere, they will be at least as heavy as the kilo subs or even much heavier if they are designed for the second strike capability, maybe just four of them while the remainig 4 will be hunter killers and conventional strke subs..



per deal four will be build in pakistan, i think the first would take 3-4 years to build from contract signing, we can have the subsequent one every 1-2 years, meaning, all 4 subs should be build in 8-10 years
china will be build the other four at same time

per defence report a contact as signed in 2015 april, so we expect an actual ground breaking somewhere next year with deliveries around 2019-20 if everything is smooth for the first one


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## The SC

I think we will see 4 Qing class subs in Pakistan by 2020 and Pakistan will start building the other 4 by that time if not before..China is fast as you know!
The Type 39 yuan/41 Qing has been already built in China..some changes will be required for The Pakistani specs.. this is not like building the subs from scrach!

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## Sulman Badshah

*CHINA TO PROVIDE 8 SUBMARINES TO PAKISTAN FOR SECURING COASTAL AREAS*
*The Committee expressed satisfaction over the development made by the Pakistan Navy of Pakistan.*
File photo






04:44 PM, 26 Aug, 2016

0
1

China will provide eight submarines to Pakistan for securing the coastal areas. 

This was disclosed in a briefing to the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence by Pakistan Navy chaired by Sheikh Rohale Asghar in Islamabad on Friday. 

Under the agreement, *four submarines will be constructed in China and will be provided to Pakistan Navy in 2022-23 while the remaining four submarines will be constructed in Pakistan at Karachi Shipyard and will be handed over to Pakistan Navy in 2028. *

The Committee expressed satisfaction over the development made by the Pakistan Navy of Pakistan.

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## Skywalker

Why ten years, why can't they build simultaneously.

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## Major Sam

why so long? what special submarine they are making? as MOD book the deal already finalised in 2015?

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## Genghis khan1

Major Sam said:


> why so long? what special submarine they are making? as MOD book the deal already finalised in 2015?


That's good. Pakistan will slowly induct new sub. This mean instead of getting 8 subs based on today's technology, the newer ones can be modified with updated sensors and stuff during their construction.

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## Gregor Clegane

Well.I did say that the construction won't begin before 2017-18 as all Chinese submarine yards are occupied.
The first sub will begin sea trials in early 2022.

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## Genghis khan1

So Sub being constructed in 2028 most probably will be way advance and up to date than those constructed today.

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## nomi007

Gregor Clegane said:


> Well.I did say that the construction won't begin before 2017-18 as all Chinese submarine yards are occupied.
> The first sub will begin sea trials in early 2022.


dont worry
its chinese matter
2nd pakistan ship yard is ready for productions

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## Gregor Clegane

Anyways India's defence minister was right when he said Pakistan will take a long time to get those submarines:


> Q. Pakistan is on course to buy 8 diesel-electric submarines from China in what would be one of Beijing's biggest exports. How do you think it will change the dynamics in the Indian Ocean region?
> A. Of course, a submarine in itself is a very powerful platform in the ocean. It may, however, not directly pose a threat to India. But it does become a weakness in your armour of controlling the ocean. We will have to match it. I do not see it as a big problem because we will have enough submarines by the time Pakistan gets these 8. By the time they get the deliveries, we can manufacture 15-20 submarines.


http://m.hindustantimes.com/india/i...es-parrikar/story-KKUQsQOh7WPdd4M8Ydl8GI.html


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## Super Falcon

I hope these subs go atleast to 450 to 500 depth

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## Jinn Baba

Gregor Clegane said:


> Anyways India's defence minister was right when he said Pakistan will take a long time to get those submarines:
> 
> http://m.hindustantimes.com/india/i...es-parrikar/story-KKUQsQOh7WPdd4M8Ydl8GI.html



Will India have manufactured 15-20 subs by 2028?

I'm quite surprised by this late delivery date, thought we would start getting these in the next couple of years.

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## Arsalan

it is 10 12 years for development manufacturing and delivery of 8 subs. people take twice that much time just to decide what they are going to buy. i do not understand why we are saying it is too long. plus i do have a strong feeling and reasons to beleive that these wont be off the shelf products and we will get our modified boats. as we usually do with Chinese

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## hussain0216

The subs obviously wont be handed over in bunches of 4

So when the chinese target date is 2022 does that mean we will get the first sub e.g next year and the 4th by 2022/23 or does that mean we will get first sub by 2022 and the following in the subsequent years

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## Gregor Clegane

Jinn Baba said:


> Will India have manufactured 15-20 subs by 2028?
> 
> I'm quite surprised by this late delivery date, thought we would start getting these in the next couple of years.


Well we will get 6-9 Scorpenes, 6 P-75i, 8 N-subs by 2028.

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## Imran Khan

Skywalker said:


> Why ten years, why can't they build simultaneously.


its submarine sir and yes its takes time

agosta90-b contract sign 1996 and 


PNS/M _Khalid_ (S137) - built in France by DCN Cherbourg, completed in 1999
PNS/M _Saad_ (S138) - built in Pakistan with French assistance, completed in 2002
PNS/M _Hamza_ (S139) - built in Pakistan, commissioned 14 August 2006

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## monitor

Sulman Badshah said:


> *four submarines will be constructed in China and will be provided to Pakistan Navy in 2022-23 while the remaining four submarines will be constructed in Pakistan at Karachi Shipyard and will be handed over to Pakistan Navy in 2028. *



It will takes 12 years for planed supply of this sub and why not to produce all 8 simultaneously in China and Pakistan ????


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## hussain0216

Along with the Augustas the Turkish will upgrade we will have a decent sub force considering our small coast of 11-13 subs



monitor said:


> It will takes 12 years for planed supply of this sub and why not to produce all 8 simultaneously in China and Pakistan ????



There is probably a good reason, some of Pak subs are also supposed to house Pakistans nuclear second strike 

Maybe the china built subs will just be your conventional AIP subs whilst the Pakistan built subs will be built with the purpose of being able to fire nuclear tipped missiles 

Maybe the completion of a naval version of Babur or an alternative missile is also due to be completed during this period

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## Sulman Badshah

Gregor Clegane said:


> Well we will get 6-9 Scorpenes, 6 P-75i, 8 N-subs by 2028.


yeah good luck with that

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## ChineseTiger1986

monitor said:


> It will takes 12 years for planed supply of this sub and why not to produce all 8 simultaneously in China and Pakistan ????



I think it is due Pakistan's budget, also with China's production shortage as we are on a full scale to expand the production of our nuclear submarine.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Arsalan said:


> it is 10 12 years for development manufacturing and delivery of 8 subs. people take twice that much time just to decide what they are going to buy. i do not understand why we are saying it is too long. plus i do have a strong feeling and reasons to beleive that these wont be off the shelf products and we will get our modified boats. as we usually do with Chinese



Do Pakistan and China realize that their sensitive information can b hacked? If they do, will they take appropriate measures? Please tell the higher ones, remove everything from computer/internet and scrutinize all your employees....

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## Echo_419

Arsalan said:


> it is 10 12 years for development manufacturing and delivery of 8 subs. *people take twice that much time just to decide what they are going to buy*. i do not understand why we are saying it is too long. plus i do have a strong feeling and reasons to beleive that these wont be off the shelf products and we will get our modified boats. as we usually do with Chinese



LOL

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## Bratva

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Do Pakistan and China realize that their sensitive information can b hacked? If they do, will they take appropriate measures? Please tell the higher ones, remove everything from computer/internet and scrutinize all your employees....



Even air gapped systems can be hacked. Refer to the Recent NSA documents about how they hacked Pakistan VIP communication tech which coincidentally is airgapped itself and then read how through Infected USB's. they hacked Iranian airgapped nuclear power plants and disrupted their systems. 

The only thing which can be done is to enforce strict IT policies and educate users as much as possible regarding IT security.

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## shah1398

Genghis khan1 said:


> So Sub being constructed in 2028 most probably will be way advance and up to date than those constructed today.



Exactly. Its according to Pakistan's move of going for smart solutions rather than going for numbers. We might see the Pakistani built ones totally different and way advanced than the one constructed in China in terms of onbaord systems.


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## PaklovesTurkiye

Bratva said:


> Even air gapped systems can be hacked. Refer to the Recent NSA documents about how they hacked Pakistan VIP communication tech which coincidentally is airgapped itself and then read how through Infected USB's. they hacked Iranian airgapped nuclear power plants and disrupted their systems.
> 
> The only thing which can be done is to enforce strict IT policies and educate users as much as possible regarding IT security.



This is what makes me afraid as hell....I hope recent leaks/hacking/theft of indian sub and NSA operations.....Pakistan and China will leave no stone un turned in safeguarding their precious assets...

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## Bratva

Major Sam said:


> why so long? what special submarine they are making? as MOD book the deal already finalised in 2015?




If I'm not wrong, This is the first sub chinese are going to put their in-house AIP system. AIP system manufacturing and the continuous refinement of it + Training Pakistani engineers on how to build subs + the customized systems Pakistan needs is the reason why the deal was signed in 2015 and the 4 subs manufacture in China would be received by 2022-2023. 

Dont forget It takes 36-48 months to construct one SUB. Multiply these time frame with the 4 subs construction. Even If construction starts in 2016 taking an assumption two subs would be constructed at the same time. 2022-2023 time frame of 4 subs from China is practical and realistic delivery schedule.

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## shah1398

Bratva said:


> Even air gapped systems can be hacked. Refer to the Recent NSA documents about how they hacked Pakistan VIP communication tech which coincidentally is airgapped itself and then read how through Infected USB's. they hacked Iranian airgapped nuclear power plants and disrupted their systems.
> 
> The only thing which can be done is to enforce strict IT policies and educate users as much as possible regarding IT security.



Sir U are absolutely right in pointing towards the weak areas and accordingly the related quarters have taken quite serious steps and have implemented them quite long ago and the process is ongoing.


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## Arsalan

hussain0216 said:


> The subs obviously wont be handed over in bunches of 4
> 
> So when the chinese target date is 2022 does that mean we will get the first sub e.g next year and the 4th by 2022/23 or does that mean we will get first sub by 2022 and the following in the subsequent years


two to be manufactured simultaneously with deliveries some 6 8 months apart i would saym it will take around 3+ years to get the first two.
also i think, by looking at those plans of ksew upgradation and expansion that we will get the last ones before 2028!

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## shah1398

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> This is what makes me afraid as hell....I hope recent leaks/hacking/theft of indian sub and NSA operations.....Pakistan and China will leave no stone un turned in safeguarding their precious assets...



Pakistan is moving ahead in cyber security (esp Armed Forces) and have made quite a strides in this regards. They no more depend only on encryption of data but have put in place quite much required cyber security ethics. But nonetheless hacking is a tug of war between who is hacking and who is being hacked. If protocols and system in place are efficient enough to detect any hacking attempt preemptively then they can make the attempt to go as failed.

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## Tipu7

Lets be honest,
I and most of us who are extremely disappointed by Submarine timeline were expecting all Subs delivered by 2022 at max.

Reason was, that we believed that idea of spliting 8 subs into half half for China and Pakistan was to speed up the production process. Four subs manufacting in China and Four subs manufacturing in Pakistan at the same time.!

I am extremely disappointed, its too damn late considering the fact that we are planning to Develop Submarine based 2nd Strike Capability which is also delayed now for a decade. India on the other hand will soon be be able to arm and get full fledged 2nd strike capability even before 2020. This also explains why we are ''upgrading'' our Agusta 90 subs from Turkey. The ''hope'' of operating 8 Yuan + 3 Agusta90 = 11 AIP subs is dead....... 

Doomed.............

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## hussain0216

Tipu7 said:


> Lets be honest,
> I and most of us who are extremely disappointed by Submarine timeline were expecting all Subs delivered by 2022 at max.
> 
> Reason was, that we believed that idea of spliting 8 subs into half half for China and Pakistan was to speed up the production process. Four subs manufacting in China and Four subs manufacturing in Pakistan at the same time.!
> 
> I am extremely disappointed, its too damn late considering the fact that we are planning to Develop Submarine based 2nd Strike Capability which is also delayed now for a decade. India on the other hand will soon be be able to arm and get full fledged 2nd strike capability even before 2020. This also explains why we are ''upgrading'' our Agusta 90 subs from Turkey. The ''hope'' of operating 8 Yuan + 3 Agusta90 = 11 AIP subs is dead.......
> 
> Doomed.............



It will come, there is a reason for this delay and it might be a very good one


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## Bratva

Tipu7 said:


> Lets be honest,
> I and most of us who are extremely disappointed by Submarine timeline were expecting all Subs delivered by 2022 at max.
> 
> Reason was, that we believed that idea of spliting 8 subs into half half for China and Pakistan was to speed up the production process. Four subs manufacting in China and Four subs manufacturing in Pakistan at the same time.!
> 
> I am extremely disappointed, its too damn late considering the fact that we are planning to Develop Submarine based 2nd Strike Capability which is also delayed now for a decade. India on the other hand will soon be be able to arm and get full fledged 2nd strike capability even before 2020. This also explains why we are ''upgrading'' our Agusta 90 subs from Turkey. The ''hope'' of operating 8 Yuan + 3 Agusta90 = 11 AIP subs is dead.......
> 
> Doomed.............



How Pakistan can build 4 subs in Parallel with China when Pakistani engineers dont know a dime about how to construct chinese submarines ?


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## Tipu7

What ever the reason, there is no reason bigger enough to justify risk to survival ..............
I wish if our Ulma issue Fatwa to offer Zakaat and Donations to our ''proud'' Armed forces.
I will be among first to deliver my ''aid'' to my own country security forces.
Collapse after collapse, shame after shame. And when we ask for reason, then answer is ''Pase ni hain''
Heck, reduce aiyashi of Generals and their families, spend money aggressively to forge your capabilities. 
We do not need empty words, we do not need a navy which can stand against IN for 3 days, or air force which can stand against IAF for a week or army which can stand for a month.

We need God Damn strong Military able to chew down enemy who try to pose threat to our existence .



Bratva said:


> How Pakistan can build 4 subs in Parallel with China when Pakistani engineers dont know a dime about how to construct chinese submarines ?


How many Ship yards we got? How many subs we can manufacture at once? One?
And who is responsible for such miserable condition ?
Some one should be accountable, some one should be blamed and Punished for such miserable situation of our own defense industry and armed force/ ...............

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## Areesh

Tipu7 said:


> What ever the reason, there is no reason bigger enough to justify risk to survival ..............
> I wish if our Ulma issue Fatwa to offer Zakaat and Donations to our ''proud'' Armed forces.
> I will be among first to deliver my ''aid'' to my own country security forces.
> Collapse after collapse, shame after shame. And when we ask for reason, then answer is ''Pase ni hain''
> Heck, reduce aiyashi of Generals and their families, spend money aggressively to forge your capabilities.
> We do not need empty words, we do not need a navy which can stand against IN for 3 days, or air force which can stand against IAF for a week or army which can stand for a month.
> 
> We need God Damn strong Military able to chew down enemy who try to pose threat to our existence .
> 
> 
> How many Ship yards we got? How many subs we can manufacture at once? One?
> And who is responsible for such miserable condition ?
> Some one should be accountable, some one should be blamed and Punished for such miserable situation of our own defense industry and armed force/ ...............



It is normal. Submarines are not Suzuki Mehran. They take time and are complex machines.

We would be building more ships too in near future like frigates/corvetters. Azmat class FAC are also under construction. Then there are some other ships that are under construction by Karachi shipyard.

Considering all this work I think this is a good pretty decent timeline.

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## Mughal-Prince

Sulman Badshah said:


> 04:44 PM, 26 Aug, 2016
> 
> Under the agreement, *four submarines will be constructed in China and will be provided to Pakistan Navy in 2022-23 while the remaining four submarines will be constructed in Pakistan at Karachi Shipyard and will be handed over to Pakistan Navy in 2028. *
> 
> The Committee expressed satisfaction over the development made by the Pakistan Navy of Pakistan.



Do they provide all Four of them simultaneously at 22-23 ??? Of course not till 22-23 all deliveries will be completed and till 28 rest from shipyards of Pakistan will be delivered till 2028.

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## Rocky rock

*Any idea at which naval shipyard they are going to construct in china?*


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## Blue Marlin

im sure there is a mix up in the article/source/claim

Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain told at the inauguration of the Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO) Display Centre in the federal capital that the deal for the acquisition of submarines from China had been finalised and four of them would be built here.

He further said that construction of the submarines would *simultaneously* begin in Pakistan and China
http://www.dawn.com/news/1211363/china-to-build-four-submarines-in-karachi

i dont know where 2028 came from

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## Tipu7

I do hope its mix up. Pakistan cannot afford 2028. We are involved in this deal from past two years. 


Blue Marlin said:


> im sure there is a mix up in the article/source/claim
> 
> Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain told at the inauguration of the Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO) Display Centre in the federal capital that the deal for the acquisition of submarines from China had been finalised and four of them would be built here.
> 
> He further said that construction of the submarines would *simultaneously* begin in Pakistan and China
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1211363/china-to-build-four-submarines-in-karachi
> 
> i dont know where 2028 came from


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## Areesh

Tipu7 said:


> Well in general this is fine.
> But when your existence is at question then its not.
> We know these subs are meant to be our platform for 2nd strike capability. So special focus was crucial as this is not just matter of regular subs but our Strategic asset which will answer the enemy when our cities of Lahore, Karachi, Quetta, Peshawar, Islamabad and Rawalpindi will be burning from radioactivity.
> I am telling you, considering India progress towards Nuclear subs and arming them with Nuclear capable K4 & K15 series, we are doomed.
> Our Military need Clean up, .............. as badly as our Political parties. These Morons take every thing very lightly and end up in giving justification for their failures



Hold on buddy. Nobody is going to get away after nuking Karachi, Lahore, Quetta or Islamabad.

We are going fine. We are not war mongering fools like our enemy. Keep it cool. WE would get 4 submarines in just 6-7 years. We can base our second strike capability on them. There is nothing to frustrate about. WE can build bigger warships during this time.

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## Blue Marlin

Tipu7 said:


> I do hope its mix up. Pakistan cannot afford 2028. We are involved in this deal from past two years.


2028 is too late even for pakistan. for china.......its a life time
as for a time frame, i would expect it to be launched by 2019 the earliest

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## Furqan Sarwar

well this update was given to the parliamentary committee and they are ignorant people so don't mind this news. This don't look like an actual timeline.

Best timeline would be 2018-25.


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## Sulman Badshah

Blue Marlin said:


> m sure there is a mix up in the article/source/claim


thread article is taken from Radio Pakistan


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## Skywalker

Imran Khan said:


> its submarine sir and yes its takes time
> 
> agosta90-b contract sign 1996 and
> 
> 
> PNS/M _Khalid_ (S137) - built in France by DCN Cherbourg, completed in 1999
> PNS/M _Saad_ (S138) - built in Pakistan with French assistance, completed in 2002
> PNS/M _Hamza_ (S139) - built in Pakistan, commissioned 14 August 2006


Oh really I thought it was a paper boat, they need to step up the pace.


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## Army research

Look the real reason for these subs is defense of Chinese interests in gwadar etc hence chines built subs specially for this purpose are coming first and then Pakistan ones late as they would be for our you know priorities ed second strike right now etc they will be there say if in 2023 say some one angry and wants to blockade gwadar or Pakistan in general where China has huge investment then these would kick in to protect our trade and shopping lanes also what's wrong we are getting 8 subs in ten year 8 subs are Alot and besides these turkey already upgrading our and work on some nuclear sub of our is also on so relax and care more about service rifle for PA as we need THAT NOWWWWW

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## That Guy

Skywalker said:


> Why ten years, why can't they build simultaneously.


Training, infrastructure preparation, cost mitigation, contruction...etc. There are a numerous reasons why PN can't induct these subs right away. Naval vessels generally are harder to induct than, say a fighter jet.



Gregor Clegane said:


> Anyways India's defence minister was right when he said Pakistan will take a long time to get those submarines:
> 
> http://m.hindustantimes.com/india/i...es-parrikar/story-KKUQsQOh7WPdd4M8Ydl8GI.html


Well, it's not really surprising, considering that naval ships take a long time to induct and deploy; this is especially true for Pakistan, as PN has never really been a priority in the past. Pakistan has a lot of catching up to do, when it comes to naval capability, and with CPEC + Gwadar, Pakistan is finally realizing its mistake.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Quite disappointing to hear it will take 10 years , should have been 2 Subs per year


1 in Pakistan
1 in China
Its not like it is new research , the Submarine has been built and has already well defined construction manuals

In this day and age. Very disappointed on the duration

When Pakistan was making Agosta , we made 1 100% in Pakistan in just 3 years by ourselves , with China I was expecting double the speed with new development machines etc

We made F22P in Pakistan in 1 year

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## Sully3

Echo_419 said:


> LOL



To be fair he has a point, just look at Indias search for the next generation fighter, contract after contract, signing ceremonies, constant price changes. we still don't know which country India has decided to finally go with. could be a 10 year process by the time India gets its first fighter 

Even the trident submarines for british navy, got approved 3 years ago and still now no one knows that it will get scrapped by the new PM or the future PM. They haven't even started work on the shipyards yet to make these ships and that alone takes years to build.


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## The SC

Tipu7 said:


> Lets be honest,
> I and most of us who are extremely disappointed by Submarine timeline were expecting all Subs delivered by 2022 at max.
> 
> Reason was, that we believed that idea of spliting 8 subs into half half for China and Pakistan was to speed up the production process. Four subs manufacting in China and Four subs manufacturing in Pakistan at the same time.!
> 
> I am extremely disappointed, its too damn late considering the fact that we are planning to Develop Submarine based 2nd Strike Capability which is also delayed now for a decade. India on the other hand will soon be be able to arm and get full fledged 2nd strike capability even before 2020. This also explains why we are ''upgrading'' our Agusta 90 subs from Turkey. The ''hope'' of operating 8 Yuan + 3 Agusta90 = 11 AIP subs is dead.......
> 
> Doomed.............


Considering western shipyards time frames for building submarines, it takes the Germans around 4 years for each sub, the French around 3 years depending on the size and systems.. Chinese are kown to be faster, but in this case of Qing class 41, these are as sophisticated as one can get , So my assumption is that the first two x two (4) if build simultaniously will take around 4 years including tests, then less time for the remaining 4; another 4 simult in 4years, that is 8 years for 8 if 4 are made in China and 4 in Pakistan Simult.. so the delivery shoud take around 8 years max from the start of he project, My guess is that they will be (all 8) fully operational by 2025 if simult. building..



Bratva said:


> How Pakistan can build 4 subs in Parallel with China when Pakistani engineers dont know a dime about how to construct chinese submarines ?


They'll get training, than Chinese supervision..


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## idune

If these subs taking long that gives Pakistan opportunity and excuse to lease Chinese sub for interim and master 2nd strike capability. For China this will give them opportunity to park their sub in strategically important Gulf, indian ocean and african water and more importantly for sake of CPEC. This could be win win for Pakistan and China.

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## Pandora

It is submarine not an underwater shurli. I would say that one sub per year or even two years in not bad considering multiple Naval projects being carried out.

This also explains why Pakistan wants to upgrade its Augusta subs. Augusta 70 will most likely be upgraded as well.

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## The SC

*What one should do/think of these news from 2011*:*?

It is now believed that the contract inked between CSIC and Pakistan early last April (see FORCE April 2011, pages 16-17) calls for the CSIC's Wuhan-based Wuchang Shipyard to supply six Qing-class SSKs, all of which will be equipped with a Stirling-cycle AIP system and will be able to carry up to three nuclear warhead-carrying CJ-10K LACMs each. The double-hulled Qing-class SSK, with a submerged displacement close to 3,600 tonnes, bears a close resemblance to the Russian Type 636M SSK, and features hull-retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail. The first such SSK was launched in Wuhan on September 9 last year, and a total of three such SSKs are on order from China's PLA Navy as well. The AIP system for the Qing-class SSK was developed by the 711th Research Institute of CSIC. R&D work began in June 1996, with a 100-strong team of scientists and engineers led by Dr Jin Donghan being involved in developing the Stirling-cycle engine, while another team led Professor Ma Weiming of China's Naval Engineering University began developing the all-electric AIP system. The two projects entered the production engineering stage in 2007, with the Shanghai Qiyao Propulsion Technology Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of the 711th Institute, becoming the principal industrial entity charged with producing the AIP system. Incidentally, the Qing-class SSK's all-electric propulsion system is a derivative of a similar system that was developed about a decade ago for the PLA Navy's six Type 093 Shang-class SSGNs and three Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs.

The submarine-launched CJ-10K LACM has been developed by the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp's (CASIC) Hubei-based Ninth Academy (also known as the Sanjiang Aerospace Group, or 066 Base) on cooperation with the Third Academy's Beijing-based Xinghang Electromechanical Equipment Factory (159 Factory). Final assembly of the CJ-10K is undertaken by the Beijing-based Hangxing Machine Building Factory (239 Factory). The CJ-10K features an imaging infra-red optronic system for terminal homing, and it makes use of a ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system combined with a GPS receiver to receive navigational updates from China's 'Beidou' constellation of GPS navigation satellites.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pak-navy-interest-in-chinese-sub-frigates.116768/#ixzz4IUZ9DM00

So two were added in the 2015 contract, most probably the S-20 if not another 2 Qing class!*


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## Mssniper966

Genghis khan1 said:


> So Sub being constructed in 2028 most probably will be way advance and up to date than those constructed today.


No offense, but if that is the case then let's induct them in 2050...it would be much more advanced then that of 2028....



Gregor Clegane said:


> Well we will get 6-9 Scorpenes, 6 P-75i, 8 N-subs by 2028.


Good thing u will at least get Scorpenes by 2028...but then again what is the advantage of a submarine, the one which has all its secrets exposed...

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## Genghis khan1

Mssniper966 said:


> No offense, but if that is the case then let's induct them in 2050...it would be much more advanced then that of 2028....


Induction is as per requirement and $$ in hand. Navy must have calculated the life of their old subs remaining, time frame of enemy upcoming inductions and urgency for them to ask Govt huge sums of money.


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## Thorough Pro

with 15000+ posts you talk like an idiot. people have been building hoses for thousands of years now but still it takes about a year to build a medium sized home despite all the fitting and fixtures readily available from the market to use in construction. Everything that goes in a sub construction is not bought from a super market, each and every single component is custom built by various vendors who start work only when a deal is signed, all the drawing are shared and financial arrangements agreed/confirmed.

Do some research on how long it took us to *assemble* the French Sub in Pakistan from already made, sub-assembled and tested components? 




AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Quite disappointing to hear it will take 10 years , should have been 2 Subs per year
> 
> 
> 1 in Pakistan
> 1 in China
> Its not like it is new research , the Submarine has been built and has already well defined construction manuals
> 
> In this day and age. Very disappointed on the duration
> 
> When Pakistan was making Agosta , we made 1 100% in Pakistan in just 3 years by ourselves , with China I was expecting double the speed with new development machines etc
> 
> We made F22P in Pakistan in 1 year

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Just find 10 year is a very long period , really long for a sub that has been assembled many times in China, thats all and we put together a F22P in 1 Year I had my hope up

10 year is good as 110 years , because it is way too long


PNS/M _Khalid_ (S137) - built in France by DCN Cherbourg, completed in 1999
PNS/M _Saad_ (S138) - built in Pakistan with French assistance, completed in 2002
PNS/M _Hamza_ (S139) - built in Pakistan, commissioned 14 August 2006
So we made a Sub every 4 years

By slow formula , 2 subs in Pakistan and 2 in China 4-7 Years = 4 Subs

They are not making stuff in our facility which may not have enough tools or resources

*But this is being done in China they make stuff 1000% faster then us*

*I had my hopes for 6 Submarines in 6 years, 2 in Pakistan 4 in China*


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## Wet Shirt Contest

PN needs to strengthen its subsurface fleet



Gregor Clegane said:


> Well we will get 6-9 Scorpenes, 6 P-75i, 8 N-subs by 2028.



which 8 N-Subs ? sorry i was slumbering


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## Thorough Pro

There is no shortcut to process time




AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Just find 10 year is a very long period , really long for a sub that has been assembled many times in China, thats all and we put together a F22P in 1 Year I had my hope up
> 
> 10 year is good as 110 years , because it is way too long
> 
> 
> PNS/M _Khalid_ (S137) - built in France by DCN Cherbourg, completed in 1999
> PNS/M _Saad_ (S138) - built in Pakistan with French assistance, completed in 2002
> PNS/M _Hamza_ (S139) - built in Pakistan, commissioned 14 August 2006
> So we made a Sub every 4 years
> 
> By slow formula , 2 subs in Pakistan and 2 in China 4-7 Years = 4 Subs
> 
> They are not making stuff in our facility which may not have enough tools or resources
> 
> *But this is being done in China they make stuff 1000% faster then us*
> 
> *I had my hopes for 6 Submarines in 6 years, 2 in Pakistan 4 in China*


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## Donald Trump

Jinn Baba said:


> Will India have manufactured 15-20 subs by 2028?
> 
> I'm quite surprised by this late delivery date, thought we would start getting these in the next couple of years.


Why can't China lease at least 4 subs to Pakistan immediately out of the 62 subs they already have till the time 4 new subs are built and inducted into the PN??


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## salarsikander

Donald Trump said:


> Why can't China lease at least 4 subs to Pakistan immediately out of the 62 subs they already have till the time 4 new subs are built and inducted into the PN??


there's no Immediate threat. considering the fact IN is regularly blowing vessels, warships, submarines, and ammunition depots. PN thinks by the time they recover from it. PN too would have decent submarines

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## nadeemkhan110

A Pakistan Navy Agosta 90B submarine.

Aug 27, 2016Bilal Khan
*PAKISTAN WILL START RECEIVING ITS NEW SUBMARINES FROM 2022*
The Pakistan Navy will receive the first of eight conventional attack submarines on order from China in 2022, with the initial batch of four expected to be delivered by the end of 2023.

The remaining four, which will be produced in Pakistan by Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW), will be in the hands of the Pakistan Navy by 2028.

The information was conveyed to the National Assembly’s Standing Committee on Defence by the Chief Project Director of Pakistan’s next-generation submarine program (The News International).

*Comment and Analysis*

This briefing to the National Assembly provides official confirmation that the Pakistan Navy’s long-awaited next-generation submarine program was not only finalized, but also placed in the procurement pipeline.

In 2011, Pakistan opened negotiations with China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co. Ltd (CSOC) for six air-independent propulsion (AIP)-powered submarines. This was in the aftermath of a collapse in negotiations with Germany of three Type 214s. In April 2015, the Pakistani government approved the purchase of eight submarines, and in July, the contract was referred to Beijing for final approval.

The contract was put into effect from October 2015. In April 2016, a Pakistan Navy official announced that KSEW had secured the contract to produce four of the eight submarines (as well as providing official confirmation that the types procured are to be equipped with AIP systems).

The scheduled timeline (i.e. of 12 years) was to be expected. The specific make of the Pakistan Navy’s forthcoming submarines has not been disclosed, although it is strongly speculated to be the CSOC S20, an export-centric design based on the Type 039A/041 Yuan-class diesel electric submarine.

With a submerged displacement of 2,300 tons, the S20 is lighter than the Yuan, which has an underwater displacement of 3,600 tons. However, the S20 retains the Yuan’s six 533mm torpedo tubes, which could be used to launch heavyweight torpedoes as well as anti-ship cruise missiles. The S20 does not come with an AIP system, but the customer could request it as a separate addition.

The type, model or even origin of the AIP systems for Pakistan’s submarines have also not been disclosed. It has also been speculated that these submarines will also form the sea-based arm of Pakistan’s emerging nuclear second-strike triad. As with much of this program, these details have not officially been confirmed.

The induction of these submarines – and modernization of Pakistan’s three DCNS Agosta 90B submarines – will provide Pakistan with a relatively strong submarine force, especially if all 11 boats are powered by AIP. There are few navies in the world to possess that many quiet long-endurance submarines. While India is poised to operate a fleet that is at least as large, Pakistan does have a much smaller coastline to defend.

The anti-access and area denial (A2/AD) value of this fleet will be significant, though work ought to now shift to the area of new-generation anti-ship missiles (AShM). With surface combatants and even high-value land assets protected by increasingly capable air defence systems. The Israeli-Indian Barak-8 is comprised of an active electronically-scanned array (AESA)-radar and active homing surface-to-air missiles (SAMs). Coupled with point-defence missile systems (PDMS), sub-sonic AShMs will be vulnerable. In this vein, it will be worth seeing if Pakistan pursues supersonic (or higher speed) designs from China.

Source: http://quwa.org/2016/08/27/pakistan-will-start-receiving-new-submarines-2022/


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## nadeemkhan110

But i think the reason behind delay of the subs is Pakistan and china have learn many things from the leaked documents of Indian next generation Submarine Scorpene on the other hand Indian and Vice-Admiral A.K. Singh, a retired Indian submariner who served as head of the Eastern Naval Command, told the wire that, in his view, 'this has saved the Chinese and Pakistanis 20-30 years of espionage'.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Of course there is immediate threat , the Submarines are a counter weight against the Aircraft carrier next door. The reason why the delayed arrival is perplexing is China is a Hub of Industrial Power

In 1 Given year they Induct countless Aircraft
In 1 year they work on 5-6 Submarines or More
In 1 year they work on that Huge Ship Frigate / Destroyer 5-6 at a time

They have *30-40 Ship Builders* with *10 more appearing last year* vs the 1 odd one we cherish in Karachi

Reference;
http://www.seatrade-maritime.com/ne...e-than-60m-dwt-yard-capacity-yangzijiang.html

*Chinese Shipbuilding*
China is the leading shipbuilding country in the world. As of the end October 2010, China's production completion of shipbuilding was *50.90 million* deadweight tons (dwt), an increase of 58.4%, and new orders of the industry were 54.62 million dwt or 2.9 times that of the same period last year, respectively.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/shipbuilding.htm

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## Gregor Clegane

nadeemkhan110 said:


> But i think the reason behind delay of the subs is Pakistan and china have learn many things from the leaked documents of Indian next generation Submarine Scorpene on the other hand Indian and Vice-Admiral A.K. Singh, a retired Indian submariner who served as head of the Eastern Naval Command, told the wire that, in his view, 'this has saved the Chinese and Pakistanis 20-30 years of espionage'.


BS.
The leaked documents were not even classified and they give only maintenance aspects and not how to detect or build Scorpenes:


> The documents were not classified and at this stage appeared to only focus on how the submarines are operated not how they are built and whether they can be detected, the source said.
> "The Indians can object to the fact that these documents show the Pakistanis how to maintain their submarines and that's annoying, but it doesn't tell the Pakistanis how to detect an Indian ship, or how we build a submarine in France. Not at all," the source said.



http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINKCN11013Z?irpc=932


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## nadeemkhan110

Gregor Clegane said:


> BS.
> The leaked documents were not even classified and they give only maintenance aspects and not how to detect or build Scorpenes:
> 
> 
> http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINKCN11013Z?irpc=932


so 24000 pages are wasted on maintenance aspects that wash the Scorpene Submarine with a soft cloth etc

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Gregor Clegane said:


> BS.
> The leaked documents were not even classified and they give only maintenance aspects and not how to detect or build Scorpenes:
> 
> 
> http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINKCN11013Z?irpc=932




That is what the Empire stated when the rebel & Princes Leah stole plans for Death star, and little did we know Luke skywalker came flying in with his tiny plane to take on the death star

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## nadeemkhan110

Gregor Clegane said:


> BS.
> The leaked documents were not even classified and they give only maintenance aspects and not how to detect or build Scorpenes:
> 
> 
> http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINKCN11013Z?irpc=932


read it http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post...etence-at-the-UN-war-with-China-and-more.aspx


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## nadeemkhan110

Gregor Clegane said:


> Maintaining a submarine is not the same as how you maintain your tricycle.
> 
> 
> LMAO.
> DCNS has already clarified the truth.
> 
> 
> Star wars
> Beat it nerd


Oh so you are satisfying your self

The revelation Aug. 24 by an Australian newspaper that thousands of pages of presumably secret submarine documents were on the loose shook governments in Canberra, New Delhi and Paris. The news threatened the operational security of India’s new Scorpene-class submarines, embarrassed French shipbuilder DCNS, and raised security questions about Australia’s recent Australian $50 billion deal with DCNS for 12 Shortfin Barracuda submarines, of a design similar to the Scorpenes. 

As reported by The Australian newspaper, a reporter was shown samples of *up to 24,500 pages of highly technical data on the Scorpene submarine,* an advanced, non-nuclear design that has been exported by DCNS to several countries. The documents, said The Australian, include highly technical drawings, specifications and operational capability descriptions of the submarine’s stealth features; noise signatures at different speeds; range, endurance, diving depths, magnetic and infrared data. 

The information, The Australian reported, would be considered classified and highly sensitive by any navy. 

Initially, there were fears that some sort of Wikileaks-like situation had occurred, or that this was a case of industrial espionage. But on Aug. 27, The Weekend Australian reported it seemed to be more a story of a disgruntled employee who initially stole the data, followed by mishandling of the information by a contractor. The story, the publication said, seemed to be “more Austin Powers than James Bond.” 

Initially, said The Weekend Australian, it’s believed a French subcontractor copied the data from DCNS in France in 2011, and it was taken to “a Southeast Asian country” – reported by Reuters to be India. After a fallout with his employer, the subcontractor was terminated, but the data was left on a company computer. The information was then sent to the company’s head office in Singapore, and in April 2013 the data was placed on a server. It is not clear, The Weekend Australian said, how long the data resided on the server or whether any foreign intelligence service obtained the data. 

But the complete data package was copied to a disk, dropped in the mail, and sent to an unspecified person in Sydney, Australia who, realizing the significance, copied it to an encrypted disk, destroyed the original and stored it in a locked filing cabinet for more than two years. 

More recently, The Weekend Australian reported, the man showed samples of the data to a reporter while meeting in a Melbourne suburb. The man, the publication said, called himself a whistleblower and wanted to demonstrate that a serious security breach existed in a dangerously uncontrolled form, and that France has already lost control of secret data on India’s submarines. 

His hope, The Weekend Australian said, was to spur Australia and DCNS to step up security to ensure Australia’s submarine program doesn’t suffer the same fate. 

The Australian government tried to play down the story. 

“All leaks of classified information like that are of concern,” Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull told Channel Seven. “The submarine they are building for India is not the submarine we will be building for Australia. It is a completely different model, a different submarine. The information is some years old now.” 

Australia recently announced a new comprehensive cyber strategy, Turnbull said. 

“We have the highest security protections on all of our defense information, whether it is in partnership with other countries or entirely within Australia,” he told Channel Seven. “But clearly it is a reminder that, particularly in this digital world, cyber security is of critical importance.” 

In New Delhi, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar asked the Indian Navy to deliver a report on the leak within one month, according to a senior official with the Indian Ministry of Defense. 

The first of six Indian Scorpene submarines, the Kalvari, was launched in October at Mazagon Dock Ltd., in Mumbai. DCNS and India are working under a $3.5 billion deal signed in 2005. 

The Indian Navy, in an Aug. 25 statement, tried to downplay the leak. 

“The documents that have been posted on the website by an Australian news agency have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out,” the Indian Navy said. 

The Navy added it “has taken up the matter with the Director General of Armament of the French Government expressing concern over this incident, and has requested the French Government to investigate this incident with urgency and share their findings with the Indian side.” 

Retired Indian Navy admiral and former service chief Arun Prakash said the leak has "badly" compromised the credibility of DCNS. 

In Paris, DCNS would not comment directly on the data. 

“DCNS has been made aware of articles published in the Australian press related to the leakage of sensitive data about (the) Indian Scorpene,” the company told Defense News on Aug. 23. 

“This serious matter is being thoroughly investigated by the ... French national authorities for defense security,” DCNS said. “This investigation will determine the exact nature of the leaked documents, the potential damages to DCNS customers as well as the responsibilities for this leakage.” 

The Scorpene leak sparked close coverage in the French media. Conservative daily Le Figaro placed the Scorpene story on its internet subscribers service, such was the high value attached to the topic. 

Left wing daily Libération pointed up the weak resources assigned by the French external and internal intelligence agencies to help industry with economic intelligence, as respectively DGSE and DGSI are focused on anti-terrorism. 

A French government official said the DCNS documents had been stolen in 2011, not leaked, with the perpetrator a former French employee who had been fired while providing training in India, Reuters reported. There was no negligence from DCNS but there has been "some dishonesty by an individual."

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## NKVD

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Oh so you are satisfying your self
> 
> The revelation Aug. 24 by an Australian newspaper that thousands of pages of presumably secret submarine documents were on the loose shook governments in Canberra, New Delhi and Paris. The news threatened the operational security of India’s new Scorpene-class submarines, embarrassed French shipbuilder DCNS, and raised security questions about Australia’s recent Australian $50 billion deal with DCNS for 12 Shortfin Barracuda submarines, of a design similar to the Scorpenes.
> 
> As reported by The Australian newspaper, a reporter was shown samples of *up to 24,500 pages of highly technical data on the Scorpene submarine,* an advanced, non-nuclear design that has been exported by DCNS to several countries. The documents, said The Australian, include highly technical drawings, specifications and operational capability descriptions of the submarine’s stealth features; noise signatures at different speeds; range, endurance, diving depths, magnetic and infrared data.
> 
> The information, The Australian reported, would be considered classified and highly sensitive by any navy.
> 
> Initially, there were fears that some sort of Wikileaks-like situation had occurred, or that this was a case of industrial espionage. But on Aug. 27, The Weekend Australian reported it seemed to be more a story of a disgruntled employee who initially stole the data, followed by mishandling of the information by a contractor. The story, the publication said, seemed to be “more Austin Powers than James Bond.”
> 
> Initially, said The Weekend Australian, it’s believed a French subcontractor copied the data from DCNS in France in 2011, and it was taken to “a Southeast Asian country” – reported by Reuters to be India. After a fallout with his employer, the subcontractor was terminated, but the data was left on a company computer. The information was then sent to the company’s head office in Singapore, and in April 2013 the data was placed on a server. It is not clear, The Weekend Australian said, how long the data resided on the server or whether any foreign intelligence service obtained the data.
> 
> But the complete data package was copied to a disk, dropped in the mail, and sent to an unspecified person in Sydney, Australia who, realizing the significance, copied it to an encrypted disk, destroyed the original and stored it in a locked filing cabinet for more than two years.
> 
> More recently, The Weekend Australian reported, the man showed samples of the data to a reporter while meeting in a Melbourne suburb. The man, the publication said, called himself a whistleblower and wanted to demonstrate that a serious security breach existed in a dangerously uncontrolled form, and that France has already lost control of secret data on India’s submarines.
> 
> His hope, The Weekend Australian said, was to spur Australia and DCNS to step up security to ensure Australia’s submarine program doesn’t suffer the same fate.
> 
> The Australian government tried to play down the story.
> 
> “All leaks of classified information like that are of concern,” Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull told Channel Seven. “The submarine they are building for India is not the submarine we will be building for Australia. It is a completely different model, a different submarine. The information is some years old now.”
> 
> Australia recently announced a new comprehensive cyber strategy, Turnbull said.
> 
> “We have the highest security protections on all of our defense information, whether it is in partnership with other countries or entirely within Australia,” he told Channel Seven. “But clearly it is a reminder that, particularly in this digital world, cyber security is of critical importance.”
> 
> In New Delhi, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar asked the Indian Navy to deliver a report on the leak within one month, according to a senior official with the Indian Ministry of Defense.
> 
> The first of six Indian Scorpene submarines, the Kalvari, was launched in October at Mazagon Dock Ltd., in Mumbai. DCNS and India are working under a $3.5 billion deal signed in 2005.
> 
> The Indian Navy, in an Aug. 25 statement, tried to downplay the leak.
> 
> “The documents that have been posted on the website by an Australian news agency have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out,” the Indian Navy said.
> 
> The Navy added it “has taken up the matter with the Director General of Armament of the French Government expressing concern over this incident, and has requested the French Government to investigate this incident with urgency and share their findings with the Indian side.”
> 
> Retired Indian Navy admiral and former service chief Arun Prakash said the leak has "badly" compromised the credibility of DCNS.
> 
> In Paris, DCNS would not comment directly on the data.
> 
> “DCNS has been made aware of articles published in the Australian press related to the leakage of sensitive data about (the) Indian Scorpene,” the company told Defense News on Aug. 23.
> 
> “This serious matter is being thoroughly investigated by the ... French national authorities for defense security,” DCNS said. “This investigation will determine the exact nature of the leaked documents, the potential damages to DCNS customers as well as the responsibilities for this leakage.”
> 
> The Scorpene leak sparked close coverage in the French media. Conservative daily Le Figaro placed the Scorpene story on its internet subscribers service, such was the high value attached to the topic.
> 
> Left wing daily Libération pointed up the weak resources assigned by the French external and internal intelligence agencies to help industry with economic intelligence, as respectively DGSE and DGSI are focused on anti-terrorism.
> 
> A French government official said the DCNS documents had been stolen in 2011, not leaked, with the perpetrator a former French employee who had been fired while providing training in India, Reuters reported. There was no negligence from DCNS but there has been "some dishonesty by an individual."



You not even know the basics principle of submarine 

How can one judge features and characteristics of submarine which not even constructed that time 


Do you know why submarine go to sea trials after its constructions

Data which was leaked was operating manual 
It can help you maintain submarine but not detect one 

Each submarine behaviour and pattern of acoustic signature is different from other 

That only revealed after extensive sea trials and which strictly prohibited by naval Intelligence not some private firm 
And purely depends upon water and geography of The are where submarine operate



Navy reports confirm this fact

https://www.google.co.in/amp/indian...big-worry-says-manohar-parrikar-2998465/lite/


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## hussain0216

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> That is what the Empire stated when the rebel & Princes Leah stole plans for Death star, and little did we know Luke skywalker came flying in with his tiny plane to take on the death star



Brilliant


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## tarrar

The time duration is to long.


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## Leo~Calicratis

as I learnt before that Ministry of Defense Production of Pakistan ordered shipborne launching systems development & manufacturing, this may be the issue for long time duration for these 8Chinese subs. 

Pakistan may be integrating its 2nd strike capability with conventional subs. 4 of these subs could be with 6-8 vertical launchers with for the Babur crusie missiles as Chinese defense research institutes made progress on this sector


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## Areesh

Leo~Calicratis said:


> as I learnt before that Ministry of Defense Production of Pakistan ordered shipborne launching systems development & manufacturing, this may be the issue for long time duration for these 8Chinese subs.
> 
> Pakistan may be integrating its 2nd strike capability with conventional subs. 4 of these subs could be with 6-8 vertical launchers with for the Babur crusie missiles as Chinese defense research institutes made progress on this sector



There are a lot of things that are happening right now. We might be developing different systems for these submarines. We might also be working with China to customize these submarines as per our requirements. Then we are also working to construct more ships. There are Azmat class FAC that are being constructed at Karachi shypyard right now. Then we have plans of buying ADA class corvette/Istanbul class frigate from Turkey which might also be constructed at Karachi shipyard.

So keeping in mind all these projects, this is a fine timeline for 8 submarines. This is the biggest ever project for PN. People think building submarine and inducting them is something very easy and simple.

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## New Resolve

Arsalan said:


> *it is 10 12 years for development manufacturing and delivery of 8 subs. people take twice that much time just to decide what they are going to buy.* i do not understand why we are saying it is too long. plus i do have a strong feeling and reasons to beleive that these wont be off the shelf products and we will get our modified boats. as we usually do with Chinese



wah wah kia point erz kia hai.


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## [--Leo--]

which class some one upload its specification please i heard it yuan class with specification m i correct?


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## Echo_419

Sully3 said:


> To be fair he has a point, just look at Indias search for the next generation fighter, contract after contract, signing ceremonies, constant price changes. we still don't know which country India has decided to finally go with. could be a 10 year process by the time India gets its first fighter
> 
> Even the trident submarines for british navy, got approved 3 years ago and still now no one knows that it will get scrapped by the new PM or the future PM. They haven't even started work on the shipyards yet to make these ships and that alone takes years to build.



I know he has a point, that's why I was laughing


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## Blue Marlin

Sully3 said:


> To be fair he has a point, just look at Indias search for the next generation fighter, contract after contract, signing ceremonies, constant price changes. we still don't know which country India has decided to finally go with. could be a 10 year process by the time India gets its first fighter
> 
> Even the trident submarines for british navy, got approved 3 years ago and still now no one knows that it will get scrapped by the new PM or the future PM. They haven't even started work on the shipyards yet to make these ships and that alone takes years to build.


were getting a like for like replacement for the vanguard class ssbn's. the only cockup we has was when we lowered the number of type 45's and potentially the type 26


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## war&peace

Arsalan said:


> it is 10 12 years for development manufacturing and delivery of 8 subs. people take twice that much time just to decide what they are going to buy. i do not understand why we are saying it is too long. plus i do have a strong feeling and reasons to beleive that these wont be off the shelf products and we will get our modified boats. as we usually do with Chinese


I think we have been listening about the deal for quite a few years by now we should have started getting the trials of the first one. Furthermore, why can't they manufacture them simultaneously at KSEW


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## Jf Thunder

so how many subs of our current fleet will be retired by then?
I doubt they can upgrade all of the ones we already have 
maybe we will have 4 or 5 remaining subs in service + 8 the we will get in 2028 
so 12 or 13 should be more than sufficient for our small coast.......


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## GR!FF!N

nadeemkhan110 said:


> so 24000 pages are wasted on maintenance aspects that wash the Scorpene Submarine with a soft cloth etc



Its manual dude..

I can give a 50000 page manual of a computer.But it'll not tell you how a chip is designed or how to hack into system.


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## My-Analogous

Arsalan said:


> it is 10 12 years for development manufacturing and delivery of 8 subs. people take twice that much time just to decide what they are going to buy. i do not understand why we are saying it is too long. plus i do have a strong feeling and reasons to beleive that these wont be off the shelf products and we will get our modified boats. as we usually do with Chinese



Mate it will take time to develop new weapon and all these sub is taylor made according to requirement of Pakistan. Remember the case of Indian Scorpene Submarine's, India order them in 2005 and first sub was commissioned on year 2016

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## Saifullah Sani

China will provide eight submarines to the Pakistan Navy by 2028, said Chief Project Director of Submarines while briefing the National Assembly’s Standing Committee on Defence during the committee’s visit to the Naval Headquarters here on Friday.

Four of the subs would be constructed in China and the rest in Pakistan. The committee, headed by Shaikh Rohail Asghar, was earlier welcomed by Chief of the Naval Staff at the Naval Headquarters. The chief project director gave a detailed overview of the challenges and future plans of the Pakistan Navy.

*He said the Pakistan Navy had inked a contract with China for submarines according to which the latter will construct four submarines in China and supply them to the Pakistan Navy in mid 2022-23.*

*The remaining four submarines will be constructed in Pakistan at the Karachi Shipyard and these will be handed over to the Pakistan Navy in 2028.*

According to a news release, members of the committee expressed satisfaction over the measures made by the Pakistan Navy for securing the coastal areas of Pakistan.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/145701-China-to-provide-eight-submarines-to-Pakistan

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## ziaulislam

pretty much expected dates
deal was signed in 2015
first sub in 36-48 months
rest each year meaning 4 subs in 6-7 years i.e by 2022-2023
while Pakistani subs will start building subs after 1 -2 Chinese subs i.e around 2020-21 and 4 will be build each in 12-16 months by 2028


in contrast india signed deal for 6 subs in 2005 and in 12 years not even 1 is delivered yet

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## X-2.

Genghis khan1 said:


> That's good. Pakistan will slowly induct new sub. This mean instead of getting 8 subs based on today's technology, the newer ones can be modified with updated sensors and stuff during their construction.


Indeed ,chopriyan oh ve do do

Good it will complete in 2028 and advanced module of that era


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## The SC

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Just find 10 year is a very long period , really long for a sub that has been assembled many times in China, thats all and we put together a F22P in 1 Year I had my hope up
> 
> 10 year is good as 110 years , because it is way too long
> 
> 
> PNS/M _Khalid_ (S137) - built in France by DCN Cherbourg, completed in 1999
> PNS/M _Saad_ (S138) - built in Pakistan with French assistance, completed in 2002
> PNS/M _Hamza_ (S139) - built in Pakistan, commissioned 14 August 2006
> So we made a Sub every 4 years
> 
> By slow formula , 2 subs in Pakistan and 2 in China 4-7 Years = 4 Subs
> 
> They are not making stuff in our facility which may not have enough tools or resources
> 
> *But this is being done in China they make stuff 1000% faster then us*
> 
> *I had my hopes for 6 Submarines in 6 years, 2 in Pakistan 4 in China*


4 are coming in 2023 from China.. not bad at all.. these are big, advanced and very sophisticated SSKs, the other four wil be built in Pakistan will finish joining the fleet (the 8th one) by 2028! there is a new thread on it here in the forum , look it up..

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## Viper0011.

ziaulislam said:


> in contrast india signed deal for 6 subs in 2005 and in 12 years not even 1 is delivered yet



India got a few Subs in the past decade, Scorpions, Russian Akula class nuke subs and a couple traditional ones too.....

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## New Resolve

A sub every 2 years from now, not bad actually.


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## bustead

The Russian Lada class was still in sea trials (and the first boat was laid down back in 1997) so 2022 is not too unbelievable. Besides, most Chinese docks are occupied by our own submarines (PLAN was busy building a lot of ships lately) and transferring technology is not something that you can do in a day. Even building a shipyard capable of building submarines in Pakistan takes time.

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## fitpOsitive

ziaulislam said:


> pretty much expected dates
> deal was signed in 2015
> first sub in 36-48 months
> rest each year meaning 4 subs in 6-7 years i.e by 2022-2023
> while Pakistani subs will start building subs after 1 -2 Chinese subs i.e around 2020-21 and 4 will be build each in 12-16 months by 2028
> 
> 
> in contrast india signed deal for 6 subs in 2005 and in 12 years not even 1 is delivered yet


Why these weapons things get too much time for delivery? Why that slow work?


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## Arsalan

My-Analogous said:


> Mate it will take take to develope new weapon and all these sub is taylor made according to requirement of Pakistan. Remember the case of Indian Scorpene Submarine's, India order them in 2005 and first sub was commissioned on year 2016


Yeah i was saying the same that this is not TOO much time! 



war&peace said:


> I think we have been listening about the deal for quite a few years by now we should have started getting the trials of the first one. Furthermore, why can't they manufacture them simultaneously at KSEW


Since 2015 in serious words.... That is one and a half year. Remember i say "serious words"  

As for KSEW, lack of resources as well as work space. We are working on addressing that issue (of work space)


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## Michael Corleone

long time... too long... budget constraints? nonetheless congrats!


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## Areesh

Mohammed Khaled said:


> long time... too long... budget constraints? nonetheless congrats!



The timeline is normal considering the fact that submarines would customized as per Pakistani requirements. Submarines are complex machines and require time to fully induct into a navy.

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## ziaulislam

Viper0011. said:


> India got a few Subs in the past decade, Scorpions, Russian Akula class nuke subs and a couple traditional ones too.....


Whicj traditional subs it got ??


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## Mo12

Is 2 ports enough to hold 8 submarines along with destroyers, frigates etc


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## hussain0216

Mo12 said:


> Is 2 ports enough to hold 8 submarines along with destroyers, frigates etc



There will be minimum 11 AIP subs with the 3 Augutas being upgraded by Turkey, if the Augusta 70s are still being utilised then 13 and if the rumours have any truth to them and Pakistan has plans for nuclear sub then maybe even more

Im sure they will find places to put them all


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## Mo12

hussain0216 said:


> There will be minimum 11 AIP subs with the 3 Augutas being upgraded by Turkey, if the Augusta 70s are still being utilised then 13 and if the rumours have any truth to them and Pakistan has plans for nuclear sub then maybe even more
> 
> Im sure they will find places to put them all



Sounds difficult. Looks like more than half it fleets needs to be in the sea while others are refueling or maintenance work is happening at the port.


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## I S I

Mo12 said:


> Is 2 ports enough to hold 8 submarines along with destroyers, frigates etc


nope. we also got water for them.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Great development, as expected.

The best news for Pak brothers is that there will be TOT and technical infrastructure that would come with these subs. Just like JFT.

Unlike French ToT the TOT involved with these subs lays the foundation of your indignous subs later on.

This capability will contribute to production of more subs for your Pak navy and down the line SSNs. Your PNS will need at least 3 SSNs and about 15 AIP subs..by producing locally your costs go down significantly.

In timing...all going rather well. 

Build your capabilities, bid your time!

You have s vast sea to patrol in order to maintain peace and stability.

All the best to Pak brothers.


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## Imran Khan

lets wait and see


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## monitor

bustead said:


> The Russian Lada class was still in sea trials (and the first boat was laid down back in 1997) so 2022 is not too unbelievable. Besides, most Chinese docks are occupied by our own submarines (PLAN was busy building a lot of ships lately) and transferring technology is not something that you can do in a day. Even building a shipyard capable of building submarines in Pakistan takes time.




Pakistan already have a submarine building/asymbly facility from Augusta submarine by French.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Quite disappointing to hear it will take 10 years , should have been 2 Subs per year
> 
> 
> 1 in Pakistan
> 1 in China
> Its not like it is new research , the Submarine has been built and has already well defined construction manuals
> 
> In this day and age. Very disappointed on the duration
> 
> When Pakistan was making Agosta , we made 1 100% in Pakistan in just 3 years by ourselves , with China I was expecting double the speed with new development machines etc
> 
> We made F22P in Pakistan in 1 year




Submarine building and warship building is not same. But I agree time seems to much if we consider dawn's report of simultaneously building 8 submarine it should complete 8-10 year as you are not degining from scratch but a existing with some modification.


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## bustead

monitor said:


> Pakistan already have a submarine building/asymbly facility from Augusta submarine by French.


Yes but the Augusta submarines are smaller than the S-20 and they are not fitted with AIP. The facilities may need to be refitted or modified for the production of the new S-20


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## ziaulislam

bustead said:


> Yes but the Augusta submarines are smaller than the S-20 and they are not fitted with AIP. The facilities may need to be refitted or modified for the production of the new S-20


agosta same size to s-20(not sure what subs pakistan bought)
and they do have AIP


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## ziaulislam

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/india-to-make-additional-scorpene-subs-parrikar/207803.html
New Delhi, March 11
India is trying to increase the number of Scoprene Submarines that the Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) is making. The MDL is tasked to produce six submarines in collaboration with French company DCNS.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, while answering a question on Defence shipyards in the Lok Sabha today, confirmed the stand of the government. When South Mumbai MP Arvind Sawant asked about the future orders of the MDL, Parrikar said: “The initial yard (MDL) where the submarine is being laid....is already vacant. We are trying to increase the number of submarines that they are making.”
Though Parrikar has in the past mentioned that more number of Scorpene submarines could be built, his response in the Lok Sabha was a clear indication that more such vessels could be added.
The first of six Scorpene diesel-electric attack submarines (SSKs), the INS Kalvari, was set afloat for sea trials in December 2015. The vessel is scheduled to be commissioned in September 2016.
The 66-metre-long INS Kalvari is part of a $3.6 billion contract signed with DCNS in October 2005. While the first four subs are conventional submarines, the last two are to be equipped with the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, which will enable the vessel to stay underwater for longer.
In the past 15 years, India’s submarine arm is the slowest growing in the otherwise fast-growing war machinery. The submarine plan announced in 1999 had spoken of having 24 modern submarines by 2030. Half way through, the INS Kalvari will be the first submarine. 
India currently has only 14 submarines: nine Kilo class (EKMs), four German-designed HDWs (SSKs) and one Akula class nuclear-powered submarine (SSN) on lease from Russia (since 2012). 
The US Department of Defence, in its annual report to the US Congress, spells out the rise of China’s submarine fleet. ‘Military and Security Developments involving the People’s Republic of China 2015’ says the Peoples Liberation Army Navy has 68 submarines.


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## nadeemkhan110

GR!FF!N said:


> Its manual dude..
> 
> I can give a 50000 page manual of a computer.But it'll not tell you how a chip is designed or how to hack into system.


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## vrindavan

make sure you ask for the english instruction manual not the chinese one. But again english manuals from china will look like this

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## war&peace

Arsalan said:


> it is 10 12 years for development manufacturing and delivery of 8 subs. people take twice that much time just to decide what they are going to buy. i do not understand why we are saying it is too long. plus i do have a strong feeling and reasons to beleive that these wont be off the shelf products and we will get our modified boats. as we usually do with Chinese


I think it has been quite a few years already when the deal was signed so it taking long time. Since Pakistan is opting for an existing design, then it shouldn't take that much long.


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## bustead

ziaulislam said:


> agosta same size to s-20(not sure what subs pakistan bought)
> and they do have AIP


Oh right Agosta came with AIP. Really sorry about that. Should have done my homework


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## Arsalan

war&peace said:


> I think it has been quite a few years already when the deal was signed so it taking long time. Since Pakistan is opting for an existing design, then it shouldn't take that much long.


Well i said, the serious talks or news regarding this surfaced in 2015 so that is 1-2 years. Also i am not that certain that we will be getting the ships WITHOUT ANY modification. The chances are there will be a few tweaks made. Also since we are to build 4 at home we are working on that expansion project as well. Plus there are the "little" issues of finances etc


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## Bratva

Arsalan said:


> Well i said, the serious talks or news regarding this surfaced in 2015 so that is 1-2 years. Also i am not that certain that we will be getting the ships WITHOUT ANY modification. The chances are there will be a few tweaks made. Also since we are to build 4 at home we are working on that expansion project as well. Plus there are the "little" issues of finances etc



*NEW CHINESE 039C SUBMARINE DOESN’T NEED TO COME UP FOR AIR… IN SEVERAL WEEKS*
By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer April 15, 2014

http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/...ubmarine-doesn’t-need-come-air…-several-weeks

Serious talks started in 2015 because china perfected theri AIP and other hightech sensors and demonstrated their capability in 2014. People doesnt know a single thing about chinese sub tech history hence worried about the delay in signing to delay in the manufacturing

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## MastanKhan

war&peace said:


> I think it has been quite a few years already when the deal was signed so it taking long time. Since Pakistan is opting for an existing design, then it shouldn't take that much long.



Hi,

Well the original deal started with the french subs and then the german subs and ended with the chinese subs---so it has been quite awhile when the deal started.

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## Arsalan

Bratva said:


> *NEW CHINESE 039C SUBMARINE DOESN’T NEED TO COME UP FOR AIR… IN SEVERAL WEEKS*
> By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer April 15, 2014
> 
> http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/eastern-arsenal/new-chinese-039c-submarine-doesn’t-need-come-air…-several-weeks
> 
> Serious talks started in 2015 because china perfected theri AIP and other hightech sensors and demonstrated their capability in 2014. People doesnt know a single thing about chinese sub tech history hence worried about the delay in signing to delay in the manufacturing


True! 
That is the reason for the comments "not so late" or " no worries"  
But people need something to talk about right so here we are!


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## Bilal Khan 777

Skywalker said:


> Why ten years, why can't they build simultaneously.



In a knowhow transfer program, a hole new generation of people will be trained in China to build this submarine, then then will come back here while Shipyard is being upgraded, and then build the Subs here, slowly deleting the processes to local ones. This is how Transfer of Technology programs work.



Gregor Clegane said:


> Well we will get 6-9 Scorpenes, 6 P-75i, 8 N-subs by 2028.


 
And there are enough torpedoes with their names written on the other side.



bustead said:


> Oh right Agosta came with AIP. Really sorry about that. Should have done my homework



Acosta did not come with AIP. The MESMA AIP was later retrofitted in the Agosta 90B in Dockyard.



war&peace said:


> I think it has been quite a few years already when the deal was signed so it taking long time. Since Pakistan is opting for an existing design, then it shouldn't take that much long.[/QUOTE





GR!FF!N said:


> Its manual dude..
> 
> I can give a 50000 page manual of a computer.But it'll not tell you how a chip is designed or how to hack into system.



But it gives away too much on Scorpene, however, most of it already known to PN.



Arsalan said:


> Yeah i was saying the same that this is not TOO much time!
> 
> 
> Since 2015 in serious words.... That is one and a half year. Remember i say "serious words"
> 
> As for KSEW, lack of resources as well as work space. We are working on addressing that issue (of work space)



Most forget that a whole new shipyard is being built for this project, and other underwater ambitions of PN.

This effort secures the SLOCs with the Indian expansionism and US defense pact to use Indian naval bases.



The SC said:


> *What one should do/think of these news from 2011*:*?
> 
> It is now believed that the contract inked between CSIC and Pakistan early last April (see FORCE April 2011, pages 16-17) calls for the CSIC's Wuhan-based Wuchang Shipyard to supply six Qing-class SSKs, all of which will be equipped with a Stirling-cycle AIP system and will be able to carry up to three nuclear warhead-carrying CJ-10K LACMs each. The double-hulled Qing-class SSK, with a submerged displacement close to 3,600 tonnes, bears a close resemblance to the Russian Type 636M SSK, and features hull-retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail. The first such SSK was launched in Wuhan on September 9 last year, and a total of three such SSKs are on order from China's PLA Navy as well. The AIP system for the Qing-class SSK was developed by the 711th Research Institute of CSIC. R&D work began in June 1996, with a 100-strong team of scientists and engineers led by Dr Jin Donghan being involved in developing the Stirling-cycle engine, while another team led Professor Ma Weiming of China's Naval Engineering University began developing the all-electric AIP system. The two projects entered the production engineering stage in 2007, with the Shanghai Qiyao Propulsion Technology Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of the 711th Institute, becoming the principal industrial entity charged with producing the AIP system. Incidentally, the Qing-class SSK's all-electric propulsion system is a derivative of a similar system that was developed about a decade ago for the PLA Navy's six Type 093 Shang-class SSGNs and three Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs.
> 
> The submarine-launched CJ-10K LACM has been developed by the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp's (CASIC) Hubei-based Ninth Academy (also known as the Sanjiang Aerospace Group, or 066 Base) on cooperation with the Third Academy's Beijing-based Xinghang Electromechanical Equipment Factory (159 Factory). Final assembly of the CJ-10K is undertaken by the Beijing-based Hangxing Machine Building Factory (239 Factory). The CJ-10K features an imaging infra-red optronic system for terminal homing, and it makes use of a ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system combined with a GPS receiver to receive navigational updates from China's 'Beidou' constellation of GPS navigation satellites.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pak-navy-interest-in-chinese-sub-frigates.116768/#ixzz4IUZ9DM00
> 
> So two were added in the 2015 contract, most probably the S-20 if not another 2 Qing class!*



Maybe what you are referring to is essentially two different submarine contracts for Pakistan. One that is in public eye, and one that will never be talked about, and is slated to finish ahead of the talked about 08 Kilo class knock offs.



nadeemkhan110 said:


> But i think the reason behind delay of the subs is Pakistan and china have learn many things from the leaked documents of Indian next generation Submarine Scorpene on the other hand Indian and Vice-Admiral A.K. Singh, a retired Indian submariner who served as head of the Eastern Naval Command, told the wire that, in his view, 'this has saved the Chinese and Pakistanis 20-30 years of espionage'.



So let me tell you guys some things. Most of the so called leaked data is horse shit, only to sabotage Australian deal. Most of the data that you see in this sales level material is wrong. For Example, Scorpene Operating Depth is 450 Meters, and Crush Depth is 600 Meters. Endurance is 90 days. submerged flank speed is 27 knots. You can see, nothing on this data is worth two cents for a Naval analyst, but great gossip for children on forums.

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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Maybe what you are referring to is essentially two different submarine contracts for Pakistan. One that is in public eye, and one that will never be talked about, and is slated to finish ahead of the talked about 08 Kilo class knock offs.
> 
> .


or maybe your not getting 8 subs which are one model it could be a mixture of type 41 variant and a lenghtened one for long range patrols and hold slcm's
the type 32 is a testbed for slbm's, look at the bulge at the bottom of the hull

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Most forget that a whole new shipyard is being built for this project, and other underwater ambitions of PN.
> 
> This effort secures the SLOCs with the Indian expansionism and US defense pact to use Indian naval bases.


OTHER underwater ambitions

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## Bilal Khan 777

Blue Marlin said:


> or maybe your not getting 8 subs which are one model it could be a mixture of type 41 variant and a lenghtened one for long range patrols and hold slcm's
> the type 32 is a testbed for slbm's, look at the bulge at the bottom of the hull



Coming soon to a underwater ravine near you.

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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Coming soon to a underwater ravine near you.


they said a contract was signed for 6 of the bulge subs in 2011 but i cant see them being able to full time use if when a sub want to to silent it sits on the sea bed. this cant do that.i would imagine they would make it bigger so the bulge is removed or make it smaller by removing the bulge. and that would mean theres an slbm in your arsenal

was i right about the 8 sub deal for being for 2 models ?
and is the bulge sub deal a separate deal or apart of the 8 sub deal?
regards


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## Bilal Khan 777

Blue Marlin said:


> they said a contract was signed for 6 of the bulge subs in 2011 but i cant see them being able to full time use if when a sub want to to silent it sits on the sea bed. this cant do that.i would imagine they would make it bigger so the bulge is removed or make it smaller by removing the bulge. and that would mean theres an slbm in your arsenal
> 
> was i right about the 8 sub deal for being for 2 models ?
> and is the bulge sub deal a separate deal or apart of the 8 sub deal?
> regards



i can't say much to your bulge theory. However, Pakistan should (if not already) going for its second strike capability. What platform is used, only time will tell.

However, the conventional and strategic will always be two different programs, as seen in other strategic forces deployment by Pakistan.

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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> i can't say much to your bulge theory. However, Pakistan should (if not already) going for its second strike capability. What platform is used, only time will tell.
> 
> However, the conventional and strategic will always be two different programs, as seen in other strategic forces deployment by Pakistan.


its not a theory, the pic i posted shows the bulge on the bottom of the sub.
so what of the sub deal signed in 2011? is that false?


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## Bilal Khan 777

Blue Marlin said:


> its not a theory, the pic i posted shows the bulge on the bottom of the sub.
> so what of the sub deal signed in 2011? is that false?



The bulge has little significance on settling a submarine in a swatch.


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## Bilal Khan 777

Blue Marlin said:


> or maybe your not getting 8 subs which are one model it could be a mixture of type 41 variant and a lenghtened one for long range patrols and hold slcm's
> the type 32 is a testbed for slbm's, look at the bulge at the bottom of the hull



The 08 is one contract, in which we are getting 008 subs. Anything else would be somewhere else.


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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> The 08 is one contract, in which we are getting 008 subs. Anything else would be somewhere else.


yes but would that be one type of sub or two?

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## nadeemkhan110

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> The 08 is one contract, in which we are getting 008 subs. Anything else would be somewhere else.


and these 8 subs will be diesel electric submarines or nuclear submarines?


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## Blue Marlin

nadeemkhan110 said:


> and these 8 subs will be diesel electric submarines or nuclear submarines?


aip


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## RoadRunner401

China will provide eight submarines to the Pakistan Navy (PN) by 2028, Pakistan's chief project director of submarines told the National Assembly's Standing Committee on Defence during a visit to the Naval Headquarters in Islamabad on 26 August, according to _The News International_ newspaper.

The project director confirmed that four of the submarines will be built in China, adding that they will be supplied to the PN between mid-2022 and 2023. The remaining four boats will be built at the Karachi Shipbuilding and Engineering Works (KSEW) following a technology transfer programme and handed over to the PN by 2028.

The project will reportedly also involve the establishment of a submarine training centre at KSEW.


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## The Eagle

@waz 

Kindly merge the same here as created a separate thread with similar subject/topic.

https://defence.pk/threads/china-to...ines-to-pakistan-by-2028.446755/#post-8632851

Thanks.


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## ZAC1

so till 2023 we have 4 of them


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## -xXx-

ZAC1 said:


> so till 2023 we have 4 of them



First will come in 2022 and then 1 after every 9 months or so.

You should be having 2 by end of 2023.


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## DeceptiveEagle

I think We don't need to worry about anything although We have Nuclear capability on land, air & sea to tackle any threat from india. Our NASR & Chotoo Plotonium Bomb is enough for them


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## The SC

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> The 08 is one contract, in which we are getting 008 subs. Anything else would be somewhere else.


The first contract in 2011 was for six, they added 2 in the second contract.. maybe all Qing class or the added two are something else like the S-20 tailored to PN for instance..


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## Pathan khan

As per MODP statement the sub construction work will start simultaneously at both countries. I am sure Pakistan may get atleast one sub in 2018, 2nd 2020 and two others up to 2022.


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## Pathan khan

Pakistan should leese some submarines or it may buy some used one,
After signing up gradation agreement of Agosta 90 B subs now Pakistan have two Khalid class and 2 ageing agosta 70,because one sub is under modernization at KSEW .
It will be better PN Should buy used or lease some from china because it will be helpful for PN to become used to Chinese TEchnology secondly Pakistan may also lease or buy from turkey which may help to become used Agosta 90 B as they will be modernize in future by Turkish Technology.


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## Muhammad Omar

Itna late


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## DESERT FIGHTER

That would be th case if the subs Pakistan bought are still in developmental phase?

Maybe a new Submarine is in the works.

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## Tank131

For people who remember the timeline for agosta 90b (which took years to complete) this is no surprise.

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## ZAC1

recently a doc is shown in pdf thread related as SAM purchased recently in 2015.in that list of items torpedos for S20 was mentioned.i think we will get these subs soon enough


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## Gregor Clegane

Pathan khan said:


> As per MODP statement the sub construction work will start simultaneously at both countries. I am sure Pakistan may get atleast one sub in 2018, 2nd 2020 and two others up to 2022.


Wuchang will lay down the keel of the first submarine not before 2017-18 after which it will take another 36-48 months to complete construction.


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## Mrc

Not all subs will be delivered at same time...what i read is deliveries of chines made subs will b completed by 2022 and pak made ones by 2028... i might be wrong


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@Penguin is it true that Stirling AIP is best suited for cold water environments?


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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Penguin is it true that Stirling AIP is best suited for cold water environments?


not really the propulsion systems are enclosed from the elements, so it depends on needs really.
also it depends on where you buy the sub from. the french have mesma aip's. the germans and recently the spanish have fuel cell aips. Sweden ,china have striling aips. and possibly russia will go for Stirling enignes too.

if you want a powerful submarine when you go for the mesma aip (which you currently have) but have the downside of being noisy.
fuel cells are quieter as they have very little moving parts but dont produce as much power as mesma'a 
Stirling engines are in between and produce more power than fuel cells but require cooling and need to be on custom frames to reduce vibrations

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## Mo12

Is this in relation to CPEC? The submarines will help protect Chinese interest in the new port?


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## Penguin

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Penguin is it true that Stirling AIP is best suited for cold water environments?


I really wouldn't know without some research.

Stirling Engines
Although well established as a feasible AIP device since their introduction into the Gotland class in 1992 [Ref. 15],
they do not appear to have been further developed for SSK use. This is not withstanding the innovative efforts
being conducted by Whisper Tech of NZ, where multiple cylinder arrangements are being progressed to provide
1kW sets but at a low power density of 5W/litre [Ref. 16].
Figure 3 shows the estimated performance of the Swedish Gotland class when operating with and without the
currently installed battery set and AIP. The plot shows how the 150kW Stirling engine AIP starts to give the SSK
endurance below 8 knots thus allowing extended poise in the Baltic Sea operating area where transit times to the
patrol areas would be small.
It is likely that the trend away from Stirling engines is due to their poor industrial infrastructure and their upkeep
and noise which would be greater than a passive fuel cell system notwithstanding enclosures and modern rafting
methods
http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/media/10576...r-and-Propulsion-Conpaper-Pacific08-Jan08.pdf.

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## Bilal Khan 777

nadeemkhan110 said:


> and these 8 subs will be diesel electric submarines or nuclear submarines?


The 08 Kilo derivates with PK customization are all conventional Diesel Electric, AIP, long endurance subs.



Blue Marlin said:


> yes but would that be one type of sub or two?



this is a contract for 08 submarines of a single type, multi role.



nadeemkhan110 said:


> and these 8 subs will be diesel electric submarines or nuclear submarines?



All the mentioned submarines in this contract are 08 conventional SSKs.

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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> The 08 Kilo derivates with PK customization are all conventional Diesel Electric, AIP, long endurance subs.
> 
> 
> 
> this is a contract for 08 submarines of a single type, multi role.
> 
> 
> 
> All the mentioned submarines in this contract are 08 conventional SSKs.


the type 39's are an indigenous design look at it the fron bow looks compleatly differant from the kilo, the sail is forward leaning which was the norm for french subs at the time. the type 39a/41 has a typical layout and is bigger. and not to mention they manages to shrink it as a s20.


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## ashok321

*Pakistan to buy eight attack submarines from China*

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ubmarines-from-China/articleshow/53944530.cms


Analysts speculate that the new submarines will be lighter export versions of the People Liberation Army Navy's (PLAN) Type 039 and Type 041 Yuan-class conventional attack submarines.

The first four submarines are expected to be delivered by the end of 2023 while the remaining four will be assembled in Karachi by 2028.




Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Penguin is it true that Stirling AIP is best suited for cold water environments?




Yes.

Because the sound travels faster in warm water than in cold water.
Since the Sterling engine consists of cylinders, it produces sound & vibration. 
Acoustic signature gets exposed.

Fuel cells work on chemical reaction = Quieter.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Blue Marlin said:


> the type 39's are an indigenous design look at it the fron bow looks compleatly differant from the kilo, the sail is forward leaning which was the norm for french subs at the time. the type 39a/41 has a typical layout and is bigger. and not to mention they manages to shrink it as a s20.



I have seen both, hence the assumption.

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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I have seen both, hence the assumption.


that maybe your "assumption" the bow, sail, rear are all differant for the kilo. the only similarity is that the hull is round.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Sub Bhuddhe ho jain ge , by the time 2028 rolls out

Kuch Karo Pakistan Navy Kuch Karo

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## Penguin

ashok321 said:


> Yes.
> 
> Because the sound travels faster in warm water than in cold water.
> Since the Sterling engine consists of cylinders, it produces sound & vibration.
> Acoustic signature gets exposed.
> 
> Fuel cells work on chemical reaction = Quieter.


Thanks for making the connection to temperature and noise generation and propagation.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Blue Marlin said:


> that maybe your "assumption" the bow, sail, rear are all differant for the kilo. the only similarity is that the hull is round.



Its a NACA profile, not round.


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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Its a NACA profile, not round.


i should have said it better the outer hull is round with a flat/radious top. but the inner core is round.
the type 39 may have aspects of the kilo but thats pretty much it. they have indigenous designs such as the type 093/094 and the 095 is on the way

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## Pathan khan

I m very much confused about this deal.the contradiction between two statments .one from rana tanvir that the submarine construction will start simultaneously in both countries.
2nd of Head of Submarine construction while briefing to parlimentary committe.that first 4 sub from china will be delivered till 2022 .23 and the next lot of four will be constructed at ksew and will be delivered till 2028.
Here the intresting is point that deal was signed in 2015.
Now china who is manufacturer will build first lot of four submarines in 8 years.
And Pakistan who will get technology under ToT will built 2nd lot of 4 submarines in 4 years..
How is this possible for Pakistan (having one shipyard) to built four subs in 4 years while china having much more dhipyards and expertise will take 8 years to built four subs..

To me the statement of Parlimentaty body is false .

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## The Eagle

Pathan khan said:


> I m very much confused about this deal.the contradiction between two statments .one from rana tanvir that the submarine construction will start simultaneously in both countries.
> 2nd of Head of Submarine construction while briefing to parlimentary committe.that first 4 sub from china will be delivered till 2022 .23 and the next lot of four will be constructed at ksew and will be delivered till 2028.
> Here the intresting is point that deal was signed in 2015.
> Now china who is manufacturer will build first lot of four submarines in 8 years.
> And Pakistan who will get technology under ToT will built 2nd lot of 4 submarines in 4 years..
> How is this possible for Pakistan (having one shipyard) to built four subs in 4 years while china having much more dhipyards and expertise will take 8 years to built four subs..
> 
> To me the statement of Parlimentaty body is false .



Well, politicians are politicians and sometimes cannot be taken as that much serious about these of kind of key points w.r.t defence procurement so to sum it as per my understanding it is as follows.

Contract signed and construction started for the 1st batch of 4 subs built in China and the construction is from the scratch type as per our need so may take that long. Adding to that, in the meantime, Pakistani staff (concerned technical staff of Pakistan) would be trained simultaneously during built-in China phase. 

On other side we will be preparing for necessary space/facility at KSEW to handle/manufacturer such type/sized subs which also may need some time. Also, we have Ormara Sub Rebuild Facility to be activated as estimated 2 to 3 years(speculated). 

Building of Subs in Pakistan wouldn't take much time that we will be assembling the most of it by our already trained by China staff. So you will have a idea that building from the start and assembling are different tasks that we will be playing with ready stuff.

China has own projects as well and it is not necessary that having such number of docks be engaged by single project so different things are done on parallel lines.

The word simultaneously would be most probably about 4 in China and 4 in KSEW but cannot be started on the same time as you also noted that built-in China takes 7 years almost then assembled in Pakistan takes 4 years so if it was simultaneously then we would be having all of them 2023-24. KSEW is currently busy with upgradation work of 90B Sub with the help of STM Turkey ad well. One can also assume that may be, after 2020, new Sub assembling in Pakistan would be started simultaneously with China so fairly 8 years for both countries as 2023 for China and 2028 for Pakistan. 

I took it as a typo or misinterpreted though I could be mistaken in my assessment as well so any correction(s) would be appreciated. Just my guess work.


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## Hassan Guy

I guess they would come in handy if we ever got into a war


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## Pathan khan

I m very much confused about this deal.the contradiction between two statments .one from rana tanvir that the submarine construction will start simultaneously in both countries.
2nd of Head of Submarine construction while briefing to parlimentary committe.that first 4 sub from china will be delivered till 2022 .23 and the next lot of four will be constructed at ksew and will be delivered till 2028.
Here the intresting is point that deal was signed in 2015.
Now china who is manufacturer will build first lot of four submarines in 8 years.
And Pakistan who will get technology under ToT will built 2nd lot of 4 submarines in 4 years..
How is this possible for Pakistan (having one shipyard) to built four subs in 4 years while china having much more dhipyards and expertise will take 8 years to built four subs..

To me the statement of Parlimentaty body is false


The Eagle said:


> Well, politicians are politicians and sometimes cannot be taken as that much serious about these of kind of key points w.r.t defence procurement so to sum it as per my understanding it is as follows.
> 
> Contract signed and construction started for the 1st batch of 4 subs built in China and the construction is from the scratch type as per our need so may take that long. Adding to that, in the meantime, Pakistani staff (concerned technical staff of Pakistan) would be trained simultaneously during built-in China phase.
> 
> On other side we will be preparing for necessary space/facility at KSEW to handle/manufacturer such type/sized subs which also may need some time. Also, we have Ormara Sub Rebuild Facility to be activated as estimated 2 to 3 years(speculated).
> 
> Building of Subs in Pakistan wouldn't take much time that we will be assembling the most of it by our already trained by China staff. So you will have a idea that building from the start and assembling are different tasks that we will be playing with ready stuff.
> 
> China has own projects as well and it is not necessary that having such number of docks be engaged by single project so different things are done on parallel lines.
> 
> The word simultaneously would be most probably about 4 in China and 4 in KSEW but cannot be started on the same time as you also noted that built-in China takes 7 years almost then assembled in Pakistan takes 4 years so if it was simultaneously then we would be having all of them 2023-24. KSEW is currently busy with upgradation work of 90B Sub with the help of STM Turkey ad well. One can also assume that may be, after 2020, new Sub assembling in Pakistan would be started simultaneously with China so fairly 8 years for both countries as 2023 for China and 2028 for Pakistan.
> 
> I took it as a typo or misinterpreted though I could be mistaken in my assessment as well so any correction(s) would be appreciated. Just my guess work.


Sorry but i disagree.
If u revisit the past 2nd agosta 90b submarine it also 3 years to assemble it in Pakistan and the third one took 4 years.
Now here what i know about KSEW it have 3 dry docks and two floating docks. One is possesed by Azmat FAC . 2nd by Survey vessel and third by 32 ton tug boat. With pipeline project of Milgem.
The two floating docks plus the new ship lift system which will be operational by 2018 will be used for ship repairs.
PN dockyard has one dock which is already possesed by Agosta,s .
Now there is also remours of indegenous nuclear sub which to me is nothing more than remours.
U reffered to submarine rebuild facility at ormara which is just for maintainance not for building.
So as per view point if Pakistan have to get 8 sumarines till 2028 they must start one sub constructing in 2017 because with a speedy construction atleast 2 years per sub is required.
If u get timeline of chinese or any other country submarine construction it takes average time of 36 months.


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## The Eagle

Pathan khan said:


> I m very much confused about this deal.the contradiction between two statments .one from rana tanvir that the submarine construction will start simultaneously in both countries.
> 2nd of Head of Submarine construction while briefing to parlimentary committe.that first 4 sub from china will be delivered till 2022 .23 and the next lot of four will be constructed at ksew and will be delivered till 2028.
> Here the intresting is point that deal was signed in 2015.
> Now china who is manufacturer will build first lot of four submarines in 8 years.
> And Pakistan who will get technology under ToT will built 2nd lot of 4 submarines in 4 years..
> How is this possible for Pakistan (having one shipyard) to built four subs in 4 years while china having much more dhipyards and expertise will take 8 years to built four subs..
> 
> To me the statement of Parlimentaty body is false
> 
> Sorry but i disagree.
> If u revisit the past 2nd agosta 90b submarine it also 3 years to assemble it in Pakistan and the third one took 4 years.
> Now here what i know about KSEW it have 3 dry docks and two floating docks. One is possesed by Azmat FAC . 2nd by Survey vessel and third by 32 ton tug boat. With pipeline project of Milgem.
> The two floating docks plus the new ship lift system which will be operational by 2018 will be used for ship repairs.
> PN dockyard has one dock which is already possesed by Agosta,s .
> Now there is also remours of indegenous nuclear sub which to me is nothing more than remours.
> U reffered to submarine rebuild facility at ormara which is just for maintainance not for building.
> So as per view point if Pakistan have to get 8 sumarines till 2028 they must start one sub constructing in 2017 because with a speedy construction atleast 2 years per sub is required.
> If u get timeline of chinese or any other country submarine construction it takes average time of 36 months.



Just gave my assessment. 

What if we are upgrading the KSEW to handle new Sub project by now. FAC Azmat, survey ship and tug docks have nothing to do with this so also 90b is going through upgradation in specific dock which would be busy till all 4 upgraded. 

Ormara could be an option and who knows however situation is bit of complex in contexts of such statements though I did share what I sees. 

N Sub is just a rumor though building one would be an option but for future indeed, nobody says No to have it. 

Going by average of 3 years per Sub, it would be injustice to expect Pakistan assembled Subs within 10 years from the day it starts to assemble so indeed needs More clarification on timeline but plans are set well. 

May be someone with more insight can clarify.


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## Pathan khan

Well u might be right but u can see agosta 90 on google earth in PN Dockyard .there is no other submarine building facility present.
Yes Azmat Tug boat and submarine has nothing to do with this deal but my point was that the three docks KSEW has are possed by these three projects.
While three years was average .


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## ziaulislam

there is no confusion, 1st four subs will be completed by 2023 in china and last 4 by 2028 in pakistan
pakistan will probably start building subs by 2022 with each to follow every 12-16 months

it fits the time period, pakistani workers will be trained in china on first 1-2 subs so by the time 3rd sub is being build inc c china, we may start building them here


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## khanasifm

???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YJ-18
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine
Displacement: 3,600 t (3,500 long tons) (submerged) ??
Torpedoes, Sub Launched Anti Ship and Land Attacked Cruise Missile
6, 533 mm or 21 inch or almost 2 ft (24 inches) weapon launch tubes
Already reported it bigger and heavier then current AIP A-90b

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## Penguin

khanasifm said:


> ???
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YJ-18
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine
> Displacement: 3,600 t (3,500 long tons) (submerged) ??
> Torpedoes, Sub Launched Anti Ship and Land Attacked Cruise Missile
> 6, 533 mm or 21 inch or almost 2 ft (24 inches) weapon launch tubes
> Already reported it bigger and heavier then current AIP A-90b


While bigger and heavier, there doesn't appear to be much difference in other parameters. I expect the main difference to be in endurance (i.e. greater bunkerage, food supplies, number of weapons carrier on board.)

In April 2015, Pakistan approved purchase of 8 S20 class from China for $5 billion for Pakistan Navy. The deal was finalised on 23 July 2015. The main difference between S20 and Type 039A is that the AIP system on the original Type 039A is deleted, but can be available and easily integrated due to modular design of S20, if potential customers choose to purchase AIP systems separately. 

I.E. AIP is not standard and costs extra.


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## khanasifm

*1. No body know whats the exact sub specs (its with or w/o AIP ? etc.) but it is safe to assume AIP is part of it as PN has been operating AIP since 90s and its one of the first Navy with AIP
2. Specifications* of *S20*: Structure: double hulled; Length: 66 meter; Beam: 8 meter; Draft: 8.2 meter; Surface displacement: 1850 tons; Submerged displacement: 2300 tons

Which is almost same as French Agosta 90b at-least in tonnage unless Chinese design due to double hull is so poor that French 2200/2300 tonnage sub merged and Chinese 35/3600 tonnage gives same internal capacity/room

All I read was PN/PN Staff statement somewhere most probably onlone in this form or other or may be in news its going to be bigger then A-90b 

Single hull vs. double hull subs benefits vs. drawbacks

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## FalconsForPeace

*China confirms export of eight submarines to Pakistan*

China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation has confirmed a project to export eight attack submarines to Pakistan, top English newspaper of China People's Daily reported.

The corporation held a conference to discuss the details of the arrangement.

The corporation's chairman Hu Wenming, said the conference aimed to continue the spirit generated by Chinese President Xi Jinping's speeches on the Belt & Road Construction Work Symposium.

Reuters reported back in April that Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif approved the deal and called the deal could be "one of China's largest overseas weapons sales once it is signed".

The deal could cost between 4 billion to 5 billion USD, Reuters quoted a Financial Times report.

Four of the eight submarines will reportedly be built at Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) while the remaining four submarines will be built in China.

When being asked about the deal last year, China's Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying said:" China and Pakistan are neighbors of traditional friendship with close cooperation in various fields. The normal cooperation between the two sides in the field of military industry and trade is in line with their respective international commitment".

https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/157620-China-confirms-export-of-eight-submarines-to-Pakistan


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## imadul

A QUOTE="The Eagle, post: 8642327, member: 172779"]Just gave my assessment.

What if we are upgrading the KSEW to handle new Sub project by now. FAC Azmat, survey ship and tug docks have nothing to do with this so also 90b is going through upgradation in specific dock which would be busy till all 4 upgraded.

Ormara could be an option and who knows however situation is bit of complex in contexts of such statements though I did share what I sees.

N Sub is just a rumor though building one would be an option but for future indeed, nobody says No to have it.

Going by average of 3 years per Sub, it would be injustice to expect Pakistan assembled Subs within 10 years from the day it starts to assemble so indeed needs More clarification on timeline but plans are set well.

May be someone with more insight can clarify.[/QUOTE]
A little off track but related question... Did pakistan got its hands on hacked indian scorpene documents?


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## The Eagle

imadul said:


> A little off track but related question... Did pakistan got its hands on hacked indian scorpene documents?



Those were not hacked but copied by someone/insider being aggrieved with the manufacturer/employer and put on a server for many months from Singapore. Then who knkws.


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## Star Expedition

Maybe soon Pakistan can manufacture and sell such submarines, like JF-17.
It will earn lots of money, I believe.

I don't that is necessary. Indian nuclear submarine is not useful to Pakistan.

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## Hassan Guy

Will the Pakistani Submarines be a class based on the S-20?


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## The SC

Star Expedition said:


> Maybe soon Pakistan can manufacture and sell such submarines, like JF-17.
> It will earn lots of money, I believe.
> 
> I don't that is necessary. Indian nuclear submarine is not useful to Pakistan.


Submarines do not sell in the hundreds or thousands like aircrafts, most nations buy a maximum of 10, usually 2 to 4, so it is only economically viable if you already have a big demand like the German types 206, 209, 214, or French Scorpene he Russian Kilo class or now the Chinese sophisticated conventional advanced submarines..Yuan XX and Qing XX, classes , but any demand for that will go to China first..
Pakistan should make and market some 200 to 600 ton advanced shallow water submarines and market export versions of them.. there is a bigger market in this category, but they have to be technologically exceptional to get a big share of the market..

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## Hassan Guy

Still no information on the type?


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## Muhammad Omar

Hassan Guy said:


> Still no information on the type?



S-20


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## Hassan Guy

Muhammad Omar said:


> S-20


That's very vague.


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## 帅的一匹

All this project is to teach Pakistan how to build a modern sub, training and TOT need time. I will call it very fast 8 subs in 10 years. After Pakistanis get the know how, they can build as many as they want. That why India hate China at the most!

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## syed_yusuf

if these subs comes in without AIP and VLS. I consider not so good deal specially at ~560 USD million a pop.


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## 帅的一匹

syed_yusuf said:


> if these subs comes in without AIP and VLS. I consider not so good deal specially at ~560 USD million a pop.


AIP is hundred percentage sure, VLS is not sure.

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## IceCold

wanglaokan said:


> AIP is hundred percentage sure, VLS is not sure.


Without VLS these subs will offer no benefit other than increasing numbers. I think the reason Pakistan went for the deal was precisely of the reason that we will get VLS since China is not too stringent about technology control when it comes to Pakistan as compared to the rest of the world.


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## 帅的一匹

IceCold said:


> Without VLS these subs will offer no benefit other than increasing numbers. I think the reason Pakistan went for the deal was precisely of the reason that we will get VLS since China is not too stringent about technology control when it comes to Pakistan as compared to the rest of the world.


Maybe no VLS, sir. China don't have VLS on it's own SSN either. The sub sold to Pakistan is for anti ship and anti sub role, maybe can integrate cruise missile in the future by adding extra compartment.


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## pzfz

VLS isn't important in Pak's (or submarines in general) case. VLS can increase the range but most of what Pak intends to hit is already or will be in range of the weapons launched from the horizontal tubes. VLS can also add the "noisiness" of a sub, increase drag in some cases, increase noise due to more moving parts etc...Attack submarine are better off with just tubes, navies don't use vls for attacking other ships or subs. Vertical multi-purpose tubes can assist in specops but i doubt the navy wants to use the subs as such.

However what's more important is what/where Pak wants as its stern/planes/tail design/blade design/rudder height/location of sonars/propulsion etc...Those questions aren't being asked and i'm afraid the navy, again, will end up with a last generation piece of machine ala f22p.


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## khanasifm

During a report on KSE during IDEAS 2016 it was conformed that new Subs will be AIP, the clip is on youtube, MSA ships are now being worked on

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## HRK

khanasifm said:


> During a report on KSE during IDEAS 2016 it was conformed that new Subs will be AIP, the clip is on youtube, MSA ships are now being worked on



can you plz share that clip ....


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## khanasifm

AIP Subs for PN

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## khanasifm

S26 T for Thailand based on 041, 36000 /32000?? or 3600?? /3200 Tons w AIP, 77 meter length 8.6 m ?? draft , need someone to translate

Looks like S20 with AIP =S26 for PN its may be S26P and maybe further customized

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## syed zia Hassan

Indian Think tanks feel the Arabian sea is the weak point of Pakistan ?


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## farhan_9909

khanasifm said:


> S26 T for Thailand based on 041, 36000 /32000?? or 3600?? /3200 Tons w AIP, 77 meter length 8.6 m ?? draft , need someone to translate
> 
> Looks like S20 with AIP =S26 for PN its may be S26P and maybe further customized



Any info about S-30?heard that the last 2 will be s-30?true?


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## khanasifm

'

http://army-tech.net/forum/index.ph...يه-المحترمه-يوان-yuan-class-او-type-39a.7170/

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## khanasifm

*Depth: On the Strategic Significance of the AIP Technology of Chinese Navy 039 Submarine *
At 15:33 on February 18, 2014 military Sina Weibo
*Sina military Editor:* In order to better render military diverse content for readers to meet the reading needs of different readers, to discuss domestic and international strategic developments, Sina exclusive launch military "deep military" section, the depth of interpretation military news hidden behind the trend, three-dimensional rendering China Facing the complex military strategic environment, welcome attention.

039A and 039B submarines is China's first AIP hybrid submarine, has been mass production and equipment for many years, as the world's sixth master AIP hybrid submarine technology, China's scientific research personnel in the development of the configuration submarine To pay a lot of effort and sweat. 039A boat first appearance in 2004, in the past 10 years time, has accumulated a total of 12 to 14 appeared in front of us. Such a rapid production and technical stereotypes, such a rapid mass production equipment speed, independent research and development in China's submarine projects are rare. This shows that as China's defense costs continued to grow steadily, the domestic submarine industrial system in independent research and development and construction capacity has been significant progress. This progress is of course worthy of military enthusiasts whom the joy and encouragement, but more importantly, with the 039A and 039B type of boat equipment, conventional submarine forces will enter the AIP era, which the people's navy submarine force combat effectiveness, Improve the war in the surrounding waters and the entire Asia-Pacific region potential, will play a significant positive and positive impact. 039A and 039B through submarine fielded, the People's Navy win my regional conflicts surrounding waters, the first to break the blockade of the island chain capacity is gradually *increasing, strategic United States and Japan on China's anti-submarine warfare strangling of being Chinese Technological breakthroughs one by one "destroyed."*

AIP submarine (Air Independent Propulsion), refers to the use of independent air propulsion engine as the driving force of the submarine. The benefits can be a longer period of latent underwater, more subtle conventional submarines than the more outstanding. This technology since the 1940s and World War II period has been the development and initial reference, but the technical capacity is low and unsuccessful. Sweden, Germany, Russia, France, Italy, Spain, Greece, South Korea, Japan, etc., have not matured until the 1990s, when the Stirling heat engine, new fuel cell and closed-cycle diesel engines are not represented. The country began production construction and purchase to AIP hybrid based on the new generation of AIP submarines. But at this time, China's conventional submarine force although the number of the world's top, but the quality and performance has been completely and foreign new boat can not be compared. To 033 and 035 as the representative of China's first generation of conventional submarines have been unable to meet the needs of future war. These diesel-powered submarines, subject to the form of power constraints, this submarine's underwater life range is generally not more than 200 sea miles short, repeated fighting operations need to float charge, the process of exposure is too high, the inherent low survival rate, Has been unable to adapt to modern anti-submarine warfare technology conditions. Which in the 90s of last century, the People's Navy submarine force who particularly prominent.




Data: China's naval equipment Kilo-class submarines
In the early 1990s, with the disintegration of the former Soviet Union, in order to speed up my Navy submarine force facelift, and actively respond to Japan and the US anti-submarine containment. Since 1995, China has purchased from Russia, 12 "Kilo" class conventional submarines, which makes our country the first time with the world's advanced level of conventional submarines, to solve the urgent needs of our country. But not necessarily a long-term solution to buy must not be controlled by the people in the wartime, we must develop their own new submarines. Therefore, in the introduction of "Kilo" class submarines at the same time, the development of conventional submarine program has also been started, which is later been widely concerned about the 039 conventional submarines. Its development plan began in the late 80's, the design goal aimed at the world's advanced level of conventional submarines, a variety of technical performance than 035 submarines have a leap-forward progress, the overall performance level to reach the late 80's to 90's Early in the world advanced level. So as to meet the needs of our naval submarine force in the 21st century combat. 039 submarine first boat started construction in 1992, launched in May 1994, 1995 began a large number of sea tests to the new boat has a more comprehensive performance of understanding. Testing has been carried out for nearly three years, during which found a new boat there are some design flaws and no compliance performance indicators, which also makes the construction of the subsequent boat has been greatly affected, the improved submarine known as the 039 modified and 039A early type, in fact belong to 039 series, built about 14 ships. The submarine has a relatively powerful combat capability, is China's second generation of conventional-built power submarine, a landmark, but the floating charge is still 039 039A reform and early type of "fatal", the face of Japan and the United States world-class anti-submarine China's conventional submarine assets are usually not optimistic.

To the East China Sea Fleet belongs to the submarine force, for example, from the East China Sea Fleet Zhoushan base after the base because of the shallow depth of the surrounding waters, the shallowest is only 20 meters, the average depth of less than 50 meters. East ship conventional submarines need to sea ferry about 200 nautical miles to 300 nautical miles or so, in order to reach the submarine with the depth of the dive depth of the sea. Therefore, the face of the US-Japan anti-submarine warfare layout and intensity of China's submarine force outbound exposure rate is very high. Japan and the United States by virtue of the United States developed a comprehensive space-based intelligence support system, you can quickly get my submarine force movement and motor direction. On this basis, Japan and the United States can use the world's largest and most advanced P3C fixed-wing anti-submarine fleet, submarines in my conventional submarine break through the region, set things covering the Okinawa Trough and the first island chain area, depth of 300-400 nautical miles, With the first island arc area deployment, high-density air anti-submarine patrol area. *This will largely curb my East China Sea Fleet of the conventional submarine force,* to break through the island chain to the east, to the southeast into the Taiwan Strait area, to the northeast coast of Japan to enter combat areas.

In general, the diesel-powered submarines in order to improve the charging speed, and to ensure that the life of the boat, combat system electricity required, generally in the whole boat 60% of the charge that needs to be added. This will inevitably lead to diesel-powered submarines in the Okinawa Trough into the front, or into the Okinawa Trough soon after, it will face less than the need to recharge the battery more than recharge the situation. China's diesel-powered submarines, whether floating charge or charge state to the ventilation tube, up to 6 to 14 hours in the charging process, the exposure rate and exposure time will increase dramatically. This means that the high-density deployment of P3C anti-submarine aircraft in the area of the first island chain will effectively detect the diesel-powered submarines in the overlapping anti-submarine patrol area. As I diesel-powered submarines exposed, the enemy anti-submarine patrol aircraft can be deployed immediately after the anti-submarine fire attack, even if I diesel-powered submarine dive to avoid a smooth, will face the P3C for a long time to suppress the situation. Therefore, China's conventional submarines in Japan and the United States under the anti-submarine encirclement is basically difficult to play a tactical and strategic role, was nailed to the first island chain in the Chinese military port, and the Chinese Navy is very passive. In addition to the war environment is very bad outside the East China Sea, the Yellow Sea and the South China Sea is also very embarrassing, in short, China's conventional submarine forces in the face of Japan and the United States formed a multi-platform multi-level high efficiency joint anti-submarine system, its combat potential is basically complete Repression, combat deterrence ability to be contained in the strategy.




Figure: Chinese Navy submarine force is now the main - 039 type
In order to reverse this unfavorable situation, to break the enemy strategic anti-submarine system containment, change my submarine force is currently extremely unfavorable battlefield situation, the Chinese navy in 2000 after the extraordinary speed, research and production equipment troops 039A late type and 039B type AIP hybrid submarine, the fixed-wing aviation anti-submarine patrol aircraft rely more on airborne radar and forward-looking infrared search sensors and other surface search equipment, to improve their search efficiency and search potential range. Once this advantage is lost, the effectiveness of fixed-wing AV patrols will not be ideal, such as nuclear power and AIP hybrid submarines that do not require the use of a breather tube, which will result in a dramatic drop in search and anti-submarine performance. Therefore, the 039A late-type and 039B AIP hybrid submarine service, the effectiveness of Japan-US strategic anti-submarine system effectiveness of the overall efficiency of the crisis, and I am the people through the construction of AIP Navy boat team, changed the main battle submarine structure, Japan-US anti-submarine system over-reliance on fixed-wing aviation anti-submarine patrol aircraft of this major drawbacks. And the use of anti-submarine patrol aircraft rely on airborne search radar, to complete the high efficiency and large-scale patrolling anti-submarine of this important technical defects, to achieve an effective strategic counter. It can be said, 039A late 039B type and type AIP hybrid submarine service, completely change our submarine force is currently extremely unfavorable combat environment for the people of the Navy to break through the first island chain into the east side of the island chain and the eastern part of Japan and the Taiwan Strait combat Strategic planning to create favorable conditions. In addition, our military 039A late 039B and type AIP hybrid submarine service forcing Japan and the United States developed a new generation of P-8 and P-1 new anti-submarine aircraft, resulting in Japan and the US-based anti-submarine fleet construction confusion, contain enemy military asset allocation . It can be said, AIP submarines in the underwater game plays a Jones role.




Data: Chinese underwater wolf
China since the early 80s of last century began to AIP submarine power technology research, the late 90s of last century to determine the Stirling heat engine-based technology development main direction to a new generation of fuel cells and integrated telex technology, supplemented by The development of the layout. In 1998, China has successfully developed a completely independent intellectual property rights of the first Stirling heat prototype principle. In 2002, the successful development of engineering prototype, the overall level reached the international advanced level, part of the technology in the international leading position. In 2005, the China Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Corporation seven one one of the research team based research team after hard work, in the year to achieve our own research and development of Stirling engine through technical appraisal, and then stereotypes. China's Stirling engine and the Swedish V4-275R series performance close. Stirling heat engine fuel is the diesel fuel oxidant is liquid oxygen, so Stirling engine's logistics supply is relatively simple. As long as the oxidant can be effectively replenished, Stirling AIP submarine underwater life will also be greatly improved from this point of view as long as the way to provide some simple liquid oxygen supply, China's AIP submarine underwater submersible continuous submersible capability, Will be greatly improved, it is assumed that the use of AIP power, 039B-type boat to 4 speed continuous submerged 2300-2500 nautical miles, is 039A several times earlier models. AIP power to bring the submarine revolution so that China's submarine force can be leisurely secrets to sneak into Japan Kyushu, Shikoku and Honshu to the southwest, you can quickly into the central region of the Philippine Sea, in fact, is benefited from AIP power, China Of the submarine forces to expand the scope of operations nearly 10 times, a series of new tactics and new tactics came into being. It is precisely because the application of AIP power, China's new conventional submarines and the latent potential of stay has been an unprecedented strengthening. This means that our two main fleet of submarines will have the ability to subtle breakthrough in the island chain, access to Japan's eastern local intensive commercial routes of mobile combat capability. Such a strategic situation for the People's Navy submarine force combat deterrence and combat effectiveness, can be described as far-reaching.

In addition, the development of AIP-powered submarines on the one hand to meet the current stage of my People's Navy submarine forces for the urgent need for excellent equipment. On the other hand for our small nuclear submarines and the number of rapid accumulation, to gain a valuable strategic buffer time. *For the future of China to build a quantity of quality are more excellent nuclear submarine force, to achieve a strategic upgrade of the PLA Navy submarine force combat capability and deterrence, play a very important role.* In summary, 039A-type and 039B AIP hybrid submarine batch equipment is the People's Navy since the nuclear power submarine after the successful development of another milestone.

*The purpose of this article is to pass more information, does not mean that this site agree with their views and is responsible for its authenticity.* *Where the copyrighted works, copyright belongs to Sina, where the author, the copyright is the original author or publisher, without the Ben Wang or author authorization shall not be reproduced, excerpt or other use of the above works.*

Kockums Stirling AIP system
http://saab.com/naval/Submarines-and-Warships/technologies/The-Stirling-Engine/

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## AshenSparrow

I think the most important part of this entire deal is that four the submarines will be built in Karachi, this is providing Pakistan with valuable expertise in building submarines securing a part in the entire chain of processes in establishing a strong submarine force independent of foreign reliance in material and development. Pakistan should aim that its friendship with China results in three things: indigenous independence in building submarines, fighter jets and tanks. 

If this ability is secured, with 100% of workers Pakistani, with 100% of construction and assembly in Pakistan, 100% of manufacturing of highly-technical pieces of equipment and software in Pakistan and the _ability and reserves _to switch at a moments notice from the supply of raw material for these processes from imports to self-reliant supply then Pakistan will be in an undeniably stronger position.

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## Tank131

AshenSparrow said:


> I think the most important part of this entire deal is that four the submarines will be built in Karachi, this is providing Pakistan with valuable expertise in building submarines securing a part in the entire chain of processes in establishing a strong submarine force independent of foreign reliance in material and development. Pakistan should aim that its friendship with China results in three things: indigenous independence in building submarines, fighter jets and tanks.
> 
> If this ability is secured, with 100% of workers Pakistani, with 100% of construction and assembly in Pakistan, 100% of manufacturing of highly-technical pieces of equipment and software in Pakistan and the _ability and reserves _to switch at a moments notice from the supply of raw material for these processes from imports to self-reliant supply then Pakistan will be in an undeniably stronger position.



I would add self reliance on the construction of surface vessels and a much improved education sector that will increase the number of indigenous PhD in all fields.


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## Hassan Guy

Good that 4 Submarines are being built in Pakistan


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## 帅的一匹

Hassan Guy said:


> Good that 4 Submarines are being built in Pakistan


China will bring in equipment and build assembly line& set up training program, that's why the price of the contract is not cheap. If buying off the shelf, the price will be much cheaper.

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## khanasifm

Third world subcontinent too much emphasis on PhD only 10 to 20 % population has access to basic education i.e. till high school so pool for university not even getting the talent

Focus to making basic education till high school av. To majority next 2 year tech and then university

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## Peaceful Civilian

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 8 subs deal and around 10 years +++ delivery time is an overall bad deal tactically---.
> .


We will receive delivery of 1st submarine after two years, one by one. Its not like that we will receive 8 submarine after 8 years. While i agree we need few heavy strike fighters and we should have split deals to 4 with option of 4, same time we spread money on few heavy strike fighter with addition of few more millions dollars.


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## MastanKhan

Peaceful Civilian said:


> We will receive delivery of 1st submarine after two years, one by one. Its not like that we will receive 8 submarine after 8 years. While i agree we need few heavy strike fighters and we should have split deals to 4 with option of 4, same time we spread money on few heavy strike fighter with additional of few more millions dollars.



Hi,

No disrespect meant---you have poor understanding of what I have written on the subject matter---. Please read again if you want to--and that will clarify what my stand is---or if yoiu like to---I can explain it again.

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## Hassan Guy

Should have produced our own submarines tbh

Do we still not know what type of Subs we are buying?


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## Peaceful Civilian

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No disrespect meant---you have poor understanding of what I have written on the subject matter---. Please read again if you want to--and that will clarify what my stand is---or if yoiu like to---I can explain it again.


Sorry sir, I got it wrong.
Now, I completely understood your point after reading that thread in detail.

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## MastanKhan

Hassan Guy said:


> Should have produced our own submarines tbh
> 
> Do we still not know what type of Subs we are buying?



Hi,

The good ones.

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## CHINA83NEWS

jetstar said:


> *Yes this is a great achievements more then others new generation submarine
> but now we need Nuclear Submarine*


Nuclear submarines need supporting facilities is very large.And just attack submarine's words a little bit small.



smuhs1 said:


> We dont have any indigenous sub let alone nuclear. It was a rumour started by a news paper quoting an unnamed source.
> 
> 
> 
> We have no requirement for such subs as Yaun class tipped with babur can perform the same role. Nuclear subs are very noisy and cant operate without protection from surface combatants.
> 
> 
> 
> No offence but we are not living in la la land. Type 93 is a nuclear sub and we are acquiring Type 039 Yuan class.


The five nuclear powers in principle can't sell and transfer of strategic nuclear weapons.This is not the atomic bomb.Pakistan with China's diplomatic pressure.Unless India provocation.


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## faaiq Sheikh

Hello , I want to know if these eight submarines are still in working conditions?

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## CHINA83NEWS

nadeemkhan110 said:


> This submarine can also carry nuclear weapon as you read in this article
> 
> 
> *But Type 098 is a latest Strategic Nuclear Submarine*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *China’s qianzhan published an article to bare the mystery of China’s most advanced 098 strategic submarines.*
> 
> The article says: Previously, Liaoning Vice Governor Tan Zuojung disclosed at a public occasion that PLA navy has completed development of its fourth-generation nuclear submarine.
> 
> Some experts believe that the information is quite reliable. However, there has been no public appearance of nor has the US ever detected China’s third-generation nuclear submarines.
> 
> Type 098 nuclear submarine adopts electromagnetic propulsion with zero noise, very high speed and instant great increase in power.
> 
> The above is Chinese media’s report on the submarine. At the same time US satellite has also found that China is building two new-type 098 fourth-generation strategic nuclear submarines.
> 
> It proves that China is developing effective second-strike capabilities. If one 098 can carry 12 submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) carrying 3 independently targetable warheads each, the two submarines under construction have effective second-strike capabilities of launching 108 nuclear warheads.
> 
> For nuclear security, a country shall have not only well hidden land-based mobile ICBMs but also SLBMs carried by its strategic nuclear submarines hidden underwater in Oceans as so far no country in the world is able to detect all the nuclear submarines of another country. China’s mobile ICBMs and SLBMs will constitute quite adequate nuclear deterrence.
> 
> In addition, China has built an underground base for its nuclear submarines to make it even more difficult for its enemy to detect and destroy its nuclear submarine.


I think it's too advanced.Looked at the design of the United States have to pee.


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## SQ8

CHINA83NEWS said:


> I think it's too advanced.Looked at the design of the United States have to pee.


It is a fictional design made up after watching the hit hollywood movie "The Red October".

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## Arsala.nKhan

*Strategic Nuclear Submarine, we must have latest technology , threat is very high , indian navy invading our seas is big threat ! Navy keep yourselves well equipped..What is current status do we have any Strategic Nuclear Submarine*


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## Hassan Guy

Since the signing of the deal (a few years back) the only semi-official information that has come out is the name of the subs.....


Thats it....


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## The SC

*Essay: Inside the Design of China’s Yuan-class Submarine*
August 31, 2015

*

*
People’s Liberation Army’s Navy (PLAN) Yuan-class submarine.


China’s evolving submarine force is a topic worthy of sober examination and debate. However, for the discussion to be useful in informing both national policy-makers and citizenry alike, the content must be based on accurate data and sound analysis. Unfortunately, both are often found wanting when it comes to English-language reporting on the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN). A recent USNI News essay, continues this trend. In the essay, Henry Holst, argues that the Type 039A/B Yuan-class submarine was “designed primarily as an anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) platform capable of hiding submerged for long periods of time in difficult to access shallow littorals.”


He bases his conclusions on the _Yuan_’s “small” size, air-independent power (AIP) system, and long-range ASCM capability, which make it ideal to operate in shallow, coastal waters. While I wholeheartedly agree that the Type 039A/B is a fine anti-surface platform, the main points of the essay’s argument is based on a misunderstanding of largely inaccurate data. This rebuttal will examine the key points of the essay’s argument and show that the Type 039 A/B _Yuan_-class is, in fact, an open-ocean submarine designed to meet the needs of the PLAN’s near-seas active defense aspect of their maritime strategy, and not primarily a boat to operate in Taiwan’s coastal waters.


Yuan-Class Submarine Size

The assessment the Type 039A/B _Yuan_-class is a small submarine, designed to operate in the shallow littorals, is arguably the linchpin of the essay’s conclusion. A key point used in support of this position is a comparison of the _Yuan-_class with Japan’s Soryu-class, another AIP equipped submarine, where it is argued the _Yuan_ is comparatively “far smaller.”


In particular, Holst focuses in on the _Soryu_’s “draft” of 10.3 meters. This figure is highly suspect. When a submarine’s draft exceeds its beam, you might want to check your data. The 10.3-meter figure is not the draft of the Soryu class. Rather, it is the submarine’s “depth”— the vertical distance from its keel, to the top of the freeboard deck, measured at mid-length of the vessel. A submarine’s draft is included in its depth. A number of open sources list the _Soryu_’s draft as 8.5 meters, and a review of online photos of the fore and aft draft markings shows the draft as 8.3 meters, very close to the published value.


The description of the Type 039A/B Yuan-class submarine’s dimensions is also inaccurate. However, that reflects more the inadequacies of traditional Western sources that do not address PLAN platform and systems very well. In his essay, Holst specifically states, “PLAN naval architects deliberately maintained the _Song_-class’s size even with the installation of an AIP system.” While the author recognizes that trade-offs in the Type 039A/B _Yuan_ design would have to be made, there is no attempt to suggest what they might have been. The author merely expresses his faith that the PLAN naval architects would have found a way to carve out the necessary space. This unqualified assertion is naïve at best.


Submarines are, by design, compact and severely limited in internal volume. One cannot just wave a magic wand and rearrange large propulsion plant components and squeeze out the considerable volume an AIP system requires. In particular, the cryogenic oxygen tank takes up a great deal of space—and the longer the submerged endurance, the bigger the tank. If the _Song_-class had _that_ much spare volume to begin with, it would have been built smaller. There is no evidence the engineering spaces on a _Song_-class submarine have any extra unused volume. Video excerpts of the Type 039G show these submarines are just as cramped and constrained as one would expect. And since both the_ Song_ and _Yuan_ use double-hull construction, a designer can’t even go after the fuel load, as the vast majority of the fuel is carried in tanks external to the pressure hull. Since the _Yuan_ has an AIP system, it has to be bigger.


A review of Google Earth and hand-held photography indicates this is indeed the case. Google Earth imagery of both submarine classes berthed near each other shows the _Yuan_ has a larger beam than the Song-class. This strongly argues that the sources that hold to the narrower beam of 7.5 meters for the Type 039G _Song_ are probably closer to the truth. Furthermore, analysis of hand-held imagery indicates that the _Yuan_ is not only longer, but also has a deeper draft than the Song-class.





Soryu-class submarine, Hakuryu during a visit to Guam in 2013. Note the bow draft markings show the submarine’s draft is about 8.3 meters. US Navy Photo


Chinese submarines use the Russian system for draft markings. This means the markings do not show the draft by direct measurement, but rather it shows the deviation from an established draft. On Chinese submarines, the longer white line in the draft markings shows the submarine’s normal surface waterline, with deviations in the draft noted in 0.2-meter increments. From hand-held, broad aspect photographs of the Type 039A/B submarine, both in the water and out, one can accurately measure the waterline length and the length overall. The often-quoted length of 72 meters for the _Yuan_ class is actually its waterline length. This value is also consistent with Google Earth measurements. The submarine’s overall length from the analysis is just over 77.2 meters, which is consistent with numerous Chinese-language websites that list the length as 77.6 meters. The same can be said of the normal surface draft that comes in at about 6.7 meters, greater than the 5.5-meter value held by many open Western source references.


Putting all of this together shows the _Yuan _is a large conventional submarine, only marginally smaller than a Soryu-class boat—on the order of 15 percent smaller. Perhaps a better comparison would be with the PLAN’s other large conventional submarine, the Russian-built Project 636 Kilo. That comparison shows the _Yuan_ comes out as being slightly bigger than a late model Kilo. The table below lists the basic physical characteristics of the four submarines discussed in this article. Project 636 Kilo and Soryu-class data come from official sources, while _Yuan _and _Song _data are largely derived from the analysis mentioned above.


Thus, in stark contrast to the essay’s conclusion, the Type 039 A/B _Yuan_ is not a small submarine at all. It is one of the _largest_ conventional combat submarines in the PLAN inventory, and is no more maneuverable in shallow water than other large conventional submarine designs, such as the Kilo or Soryu-classes. If a navy truly wishes to invest in a “coastal submarine,” or SSC, then it would look at submarines like the German Type 205 and 206, and the North Korean _Sango_, all of which come in at less than 500 tons submerged displacement.





Type 039B Yuan-class submarine during rollout at the Jiangnan Shipyard on Changxing Island. Note the long white line in the draft markings, which designates the submarine’s normal surface waterline. Also note the low-frequency passive flank array just above the keel blocks.



Project 636 Kilo Type 039A/B Yuan Type 039GSong Soryu

Length Overall 73.8 m 77.6 m1 74.9 m 84.0 m

Beam 9.9 m 8.4 m 7.5 m 9.1 m

Draft 6.6 m 6.7 m2 5.7 m4 8.3 m5

Surface Displacement 2,350 tons 2,725 tons3 1,727 tons 2,947 tons

Submerged Displacement 3,125 tons 3,600 tons 2,286 tons 4,100 tons

_Notes:_
_ 1) The often-quoted Type 039A/B length of 72 meters is waterline length, not length overall._
_ 2) Type 039A/B draft is larger than the reported 5.5 meters that is nearly identical to the smaller Type 039G Song-class._
_ 3) Yuan-class surfaced and submerged displacements come from Chinese language websites, of which there is some confusion on surface displacement. The value given on most Chinese websites (2,300 tons) would result in a reserve buoyancy of 50+ percent, which is not realistic. The estimated surface displacement in the table reflects a reserve buoyancy of 32 percent that is consistent with earlier Type 035 and 039G designs._
_ 4) The reported 5.3-meter value for the Type 039G’s draft is suspect. Hand-held photos of this submarine in drydock suggest the draft is probably closer to 5.7 meters._
_ 5) The draft of the Soryu-class is often listed as 8.5 meters, however, numerous photos of fore and aft draft markings show it is closer to 8.3 meters._

Shallow Water Environment

Designing a submarine to operate in very shallow water has other problems beyond just maneuvering. Holst correctly points out that the acoustic environment in coastal areas is chaotic and difficult, making it challenging for an antisubmarine platform to find a _Yuan_ ensconced in such waters. But what is good for the gander is also good for the goose.


Radiated noise from shipping is far louder, and even with multiple bounces off the bottom and sea surface, a lot of the acoustic energy will still reach a submerged submarine’s sonar. With shipping, biologic, and wave noise coming in from both near and far, a _Yuan_ would be hard pressed to detect, track, and identify a target of interest; particularly as surface combatants tend to be quieter than civilian merchants. In other words, it will be very difficult to find and obtain an accurate fire control solution on a desired target without using a periscope to sort out the tactical picture. Doing so, however, would increase the submarine’s chances of being detected by radar or electro-optical sensors. Therefore, a submarine hugging the bottom in shallow coastal waters will be vexed by the same problem that an ASW ship has to deal with in looking for the submarine. But what is even more curious—if Chinese designers had intended from the very beginning for the _Yuan_-class to be a shallow water boat—why was a passive low frequency flank array put on these submarines?


The H/SQG-207 is a line of individual hydrophones mounted to the hull, and is designed to provide long-range detection against noisy ships—low frequency noise suffers lower absorption losses and travels further in water. The problem is this kind of array is most effective in deeper water where interference with the bottom is limited. Such an array would be severely degraded in very shallow water, offering little, if any benefit, beyond the capabilities of the medium frequency bow array. The fact that the H/SQG-207 array is on the _Yuan_-class argues strongly that its design operating areas are in deeper waters where this passive sonar can serve as the primary sensor.


PLAN Submarine Weaponry

Holst’s treatment of PLAN submarine weaponry shows it perpetuates a longstanding misunderstanding when it asserts that the Type 039A/B _Yuan_ carries the C-802 ASCM. The fundamental problem with this is the C-802 is not a submarine-launched missile. In fact, the “C-802” designation is for an export surface, air, and land-based ASCM with a range of 120 kilometers, rather than the 180 kilometers stated in the essay. Of interest, there is _no evidence _the C802 was ever accepted by the PLAN. Lastly, it isn’t the same missile that the PLAN has fielded on the Type 039G, 039A/B, 091, and 093 submarines—the YJ-82. The YJ-82 is a solid-rocket propelled missile based on the YJ-8/8A ship-launched ASCM, but without the booster. The YJ-82 is launched in a buoyant capsule that is virtually identical to the U.S. submarine-launched Harpoon. Normally, the range of the YJ-8/8A is only 42 kilometers. But without the booster, the YJ-82’s range will be even less, possibly as short as 30 to 34 kilometers (16–18 nautical miles). This very short range means the launch will almost certainly be seen by its target, or an escort, as the missile will be within the radar horizon of most warships by the time it reaches ten meters in altitude. With such a short engagement range, the firing submarine’s location will be fixed quite quickly, with a counter-attack likely following shortly thereafter if a warship is nearby—flaming datums have a bad habit of attracting that sort of response. That is one of the key reasons why the PLAN submarine force is eagerly awaiting the fielding of the YJ-18, which reportedly has a maximum range of up to 220 kilometers.


With respect to the authors the Department of Defense’s, 2015 Annual Report to Congress, the cited range of 290nm (550km) for the YJ-18 in (p. 10) is undoubtedly a typographic error. It is virtually impossible for a missile that is very likely smaller than the SS-N-27B Sizzler to have a range that is almost two and a half times greater. The ranges given in the 2015 report for the YJ-8A and YJ-62 are also incorrect and reflect a reliance on inaccurate open source information.





The YJ-82 is the submarine launched version of the solid-rocket propelled YJ-8/8A. China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corporation Photo


Then there is essay’s explicit claim that the _Yuan_ was designed “primarily as an anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) platform.” While _IHS Jane’s_ applies the “G” to the designation of any vessel that can_ physically_ fire an ASCM, this doesn’t make the submarine “primarily” a cruise missile platform. The U.S. intelligence community, NATO, and Russian designation systems require a submarine to be fitted with dedicated launchers, not just the torpedo tubes, to be called a guided-missile submarine. That is why there is such a furious debate as to whether or not the new Type 093B or 095 will have a vertical launch system—perhaps as many as 16 tubes. This will clearly indicate when the cruise missile (both anti-ship and land attack) has eclipsed the torpedo as the submarine’s main weapon.


Another point of interest is that the weapons carried by the Type 039A/B _Yuan_ are identical to those on the Type 039G _Song_, to include both the current YJ-82 and the future YJ-18 ASCMs. And yet, Holst makes no mention of the_ Song_-class having the exact same weapons capability, both in terms of the number of torpedo tubes and weapons carried. The Type 039A/B _Yuan_-class will undoubtedly be the more effective ASCM platform; due to its enhanced sonar suite and the tactical flexibility provided by the AIP system, but in both instances the ASCM is a secondary weapon because of the small load out of missiles in the torpedo room, and the low salvo-size driven by torpedo tube limitations. If the Chinese continue to follow Russian tactical concepts, two of the six torpedo tubes will be loaded with YU-6 torpedoes for self-defense against an unexpected appearance by a submarine or surface ship. And while a salvo of four YJ-18 ASCMs is nothing to sneeze at, it is probably insufficient to overwhelm a modern warship’s hard and soft kill air defenses. The Mach 3 speed of the YJ-18’s sprint vehicle is impressive, and will seriously reduce a ship’s reaction time, but numbers are still needed to saturate todays modern air defense systems.


Conclusions

In sum, I believe Holst has drawn incorrect conclusions on the Type 039A/B _Yuan _submarine design basis because of inaccurate technical data and inadequate analysis. The Type 039A/B _Yuan _is a large submarine, particularly for a non-nuclear boat, and is comparable in size to Russia’s Kilo and Japan’s _Soryu_-classes. The sonar suite of the _Yuan _is tailored more for deep water where it can use the low frequency flank array to make long-range detections against noisy ships. The lack of a vertical launch system means the _Yuan,_ and _Song_-class, are limited by the number of torpedo tubes that can be allocated to ASCMs; making it very hard to saturate a ship’s air defenses with only four, or at most five, missile salvos. And given the current short-ranged YJ-82 ASCM, a Type 039A/B _Yuan_-class submarine is better off attempting to close inside 15 kilometers and engaging the target with YU-6 torpedoes. But even after the introduction of the YJ-18, the restrictive factors of the torpedo room’s capacity and the small number of torpedo tubes remains. The PLAN appears to appreciate this constraint, as the discussion of future nuclear submarine designs having as many as 16 vertical launch tubes suggests.


The design aspects of the Type 039A/B _Yuan_-class submarine point toward deep-water operating areas in the near seas, to include the approaches to Taiwan, where their improved sonar and AIP capabilities will aid the submarine in detecting, tracking, and engaging targets of interest. And while a Type 039A/B Yuan could soon be loaded with a more effective, long-range ASCM, the submarine’s design limitations will continue to rely heavily on the torpedo.

https://news.usni.org/2015/08/31/essay-inside-the-design-of-chinas-yuan-class-submarine

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## Hassan Guy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangor-class_submarine


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## FuturePAF

Any Idea which Steel is planned for the eight boats from China
Export subs out of Europe for both Pakistan and India have used HY-80 Steel (allowing operating depts of 350-370 meters)
The U-214 export model is made out of the same steel, which the german navy's u-212 is made from hy-100 (operating in the 400+ meter depth; probably round 430-440 meters per the strength of the sttel per my "guestimation")

Chinese and Japanese submarines are using Hy-118 and Hy-116 steel respectively (allowing even deeper operating depths)
If Pakistan if getting Chinese Submarines, it should try to secure the stronger Hy-118 Steel used in the type 093G SSNs

there is already hy-130 underdevelopment by the worlds navie, so Hy-118 is not the cutting edge, but in Pakistan's neighborhood it would be the BEST Of the BEST
and seeing that these boats wwill have to last us 30 years if not more, Pakistan should try to build them as good as possible

citation: http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2015/04/chinese-type-093a-or-093g-ssn-armed.html
(although from another forum, it has references from possibly reputable sources, this is an issue the PN must look into)

Deeper diving means evading detection in more thermal layers (staying outside of Captas-4 detection range; whos cable can extend up to 500 meters, for example, my may calculations operating depths would be 515 meters max with crush depth at 815 meters) and being able to track enemy forces and engage them at will; captas 4 may one day be sold to the indian navy, and the indian navy already has P-8I ASW MPA which is world class. while better steel and the best signature reductions may not prevent detection, it would allow detection to happen much closer in than the otherwise possible, and thereby allow defensive countermeasures; passive and active such as torpedos andd torpedo launched anti-aircraft missiles; this will allow Pakistan's navy's submarine force to be world class.

another great page on the HY-130 steel from a decade ago!
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f24/little-bit-info-u-boat-steel-145778.html
(it also list how the u-212 staays as stealthy as possible, and how the swedish gotland got in close to a CBG, something the PN should really forcus on to defeat indian CBG that can be used to blockade the coast in the event of hostilities)

Also Pakistan should look to redesign the submarines; similar more to the Dolphin 2 class of the israeli navy in terms of better maneurability in shallow areas, and a larger sonar array similar to the seawolf and astute class submarines of the USN and RN respectively. a design to consider is the Vidar 7 scaled up
http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/media/4802469/BMTDSL-Vidar-7-Datasheet.pdf

or even better the following design:
https://postimg.org/image/uzrfyestj/

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## abbasniazi

In my humble opinion, Pakistan should go for another parallel deal for western subs, be it a joint venture with a western country or a procurement with ToT, for numbers PN can produce more Agosta 90Bs with latest Technologies that could be incorporated in the present Agostas design frame, Pakistan can target to take Agusta 90Bs number to 8 till the delivery of Chinese subs, meanwhile PN could opt for a joint venture with Turkey or Italy...whatever the case maybe but i don't think PN after ordering Chinese subs should sit back and relax...


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## khanasifm

http://www.janes.com/article/66691/china-resumes-production-of-yuan-class-submarines

S26t
http://www.janes.com/article/66998/thailand-aims-to-operate-fleet-of-three-submarines-by-2026

The initial variant of the Yuan class (Type 039A) entered service in 2006. *Overall length is 77 m with a beam of 8.4 m, displacing around 2,700 tonnes when on the surface and 3,600 tonnes when dived, according to IHS Jane's Fighting Ships.*

Equipped with *six 533 mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes, *weapon loads are likely to be a mix of anti-ship missiles, such as the YJ-82, and heavyweight torpedoes, such as the Yu-6.


Compare agosta 90b 4 tubes only 
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/agosta/

Compare to Scorpene

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/scorpene/


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## 帅的一匹

abbasniazi said:


> In my humble opinion, Pakistan should go for another parallel deal for western subs, be it a joint venture with a western country or a procurement with ToT, for numbers PN can produce more Agosta 90Bs with latest Technologies that could be incorporated in the present Agostas design frame, Pakistan can target to take Agusta 90Bs number to 8 till the delivery of Chinese subs, meanwhile PN could opt for a joint venture with Turkey or Italy...whatever the case maybe but i don't think PN after ordering Chinese subs should sit back and relax...


Sorry, no money left.

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## RedStar86

China will always stand by pak, we will en-crease our deterrence together not only by submarines but in other ways too.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

abbasniazi said:


> In my humble opinion, Pakistan should go for another parallel deal for western subs, be it a joint venture with a western country or a procurement with ToT, for numbers PN can produce more Agosta 90Bs with latest Technologies that could be incorporated in the present Agostas design frame, Pakistan can target to take Agusta 90Bs number to 8 till the delivery of Chinese subs, meanwhile PN could opt for a joint venture with Turkey or Italy...whatever the case maybe but i don't think PN after ordering Chinese subs should sit back and relax...


Scarce funding aside, the timeline will - at best - coincide with the Chinese SSPs. Pakistan will work through the Chinese SSPs and sometime in the 2020s may look for an Agosta 90B replacement, which could be sought for procurement the 2030s or 2040s.


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## khavar

Great. Waiting for that


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## Cool_Soldier

Hold your horses boys.
Let these sub coming in to our waters, you will further development soon. Last two subs might be different variants,

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## aliaselin

Parameters of ET-34 and ET-36 torpedoes which will be used by the submarine* “Polaris Kylin” *exported to Pakistan and some others

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## Hassan Guy

Uh oh, look at this dude mannnn

Konstantin Sivkov says that that the submarines are inferior to subsurface vessels produced in Russia and the United States.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201705021053203462-china-thailand-submarines/


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## Penguin

Hassan Guy said:


> Uh oh, look at this dude mannnn
> 
> Konstantin Sivkov says that that the submarines are inferior to subsurface vessels produced in Russia and the United States.
> 
> https://sputniknews.com/military/201705021053203462-china-thailand-submarines/


Except the US doesn't produce conventially powered submarines since the Barbel class (built 1956 – 1959, in commission 1959 – 1990), so that would be comparing S26T with a US SSN, which is apples and oranges ..... Also, I wouldn't says that the Yuan class is (much) inferior to Russian Kilo's or Lada. Besides, 8 near-peer subs is better then 0 peer subs.

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## Arsalan

Hassan Guy said:


> Uh oh, look at this dude mannnn
> 
> Konstantin Sivkov says that that the submarines are inferior to subsurface vessels produced in Russia and the United States.
> 
> https://sputniknews.com/military/201705021053203462-china-thailand-submarines/


Yes
Just one thing, the US produced the last conventional subs in 1950s so. . . . 
As for Russians, well they have some time proven technology at play in there subs, the Chinese lack that. Furthermore a lot is not known about these Chinese submarines and specially the configration PN have opted for so lots of speculations!! But if you look at the other arms of military and the hardware Chinese are producing for them at home (since a lot more is known about those) it will be safe to say that Chinese have come a long way!!! Surely the subs cant be compared to fighter aircrafts but i am just talking about the technological advancements and industrial support, just as an example. I am confident that the subs will serve us well. Besides, these are the ones that we will be operating so they will be better for us compared to what we wont be getting anyway!!

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## syed_yusuf

Arsalan said:


> Yes
> Just one thing, the US produced the last conventional subs in 1950s so. . . .
> As for Russians, well they have some time proven technology at play in there subs, the Chinese lack that. Furthermore a lot is not known about these Chinese submarines and specially the configration PN have opted for so lots of speculations!! But if you look at the other arms of military and the hardware Chinese are producing for them at home (since a lot more is known about those) it will be safe to say that Chinese have come a long way!!! Surely the subs cant be compared to fighter aircrafts but i am just talking about the technological advancements and industrial support, just as an example. I am confident that the subs will serve us well. Besides, these are the ones that we will be operating so they will be better for us compared to what we wont be getting anyway!!



it is safe to assume that these subs will be better than upgraded Augusta 90B and that is pretty dam good


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## Bilal Khan 777

These subs would be so inferior and the superior ships of the west will not be able to find them

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## The SC

Russia had trouble with the Lada class, the project was shelved because of AIP tech, and they went back promoting the Kilo class, nuclear wise yes the Russians might have some very good subs, but for conventional subs China is doing very good, it is offering many AIP technologies that work..

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

There are ways to bridge apparent gaps. One thing the PN can do is emulate the model of taking a Chinese base platform (i.e. submarines) and outfitting them with very good subsystems (e.g. sonar, ESM, CMS, etc). If these aren't available in China, then the PN could see to fitting the Hangor with the same systems as the Agosta 90B upgrade. Granted, this won't compensate for whatever limitations the Hangor's hull and acoustics have, but at least the subsystems will be on-par with other submarines.

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## MastanKhan

syed_yusuf said:


> it is safe to assume that these subs will be better than upgraded Augusta 90B and that is pretty dam good



Hi,

Really---you are making a big big claim---. Just remember when the agosta 90B came in---it was amongst the most advanced subs in asia---.

With the fresh upgrade in Turkey---it is going to be way ahead of where it was when it came in---.

The australians solved some of the acoustic issues with the agosta90B years ago---. Where can we go with the chinese subs?

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## Arsalan

syed_yusuf said:


> it is safe to assume that these subs will be better than upgraded Augusta 90B and that is pretty dam good


I cannot say anything unless we can be sure about the specification and configuration we are going to get. There is not much available on that. 

One thing that we can however confirm right not is that they will be much more flexible in operations compared to Agosta or any other western submarines. You may arm them with weapons of your choice and do what pleases you.

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## Tank131

I think people are forgetting that the predecessor of this variant (song class) actually surfaced adjacent to a USN CBG and did so while being undetected. I think acoustically the sub will be fine.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

As per Reuters, Chinese submarines use license-built MTU engines. I don't know if this is true or not, but at the end of the day, Pakistan will get what it pays for... If it'll pay up for the S26 with MTU engines, Fincantieri fuel-cell AIP as well as European subsystems and weapons, then it'll get that. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll ever know in either scenario ... if the subs are really nicely equipped, the PN may not want to jeopardize its supply channels by disclosing the specific systems. On the other hand, if they're not great, the PN won't want anyone else to know it.



> Submarine diesel technology is hardly new, but these engines are built to exacting standards to ensure reliability under extreme conditions. MTU has been building them for more than 50 years. The engine delivered to China for the Song and Yuan classes, the MTU 396 SE84 series, is one of the world's most widely used submarine power plants. Each of the Chinese submarines has three MTU diesels, according to technical specifications listed in Chinese military affairs journals and websites.

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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> I think people are forgetting that the predecessor of this variant (song class) actually surfaced adjacent to a USN CBG and did so while being undetected. I think acoustically the sub will be fine.



Hi,

Supposedly it was laying down in wait for the CBG---just like what the pakistani sub did to the U S carrier in the late 70's.

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## Basel

Penguin said:


> Except the US doesn't produce conventially powered submarines since the Barbel class (built 1956 – 1959, in commission 1959 – 1990), so that would be comparing S26T with a US SSN, which is apples and oranges ..... Also, I wouldn't says that the Yuan class is (much) inferior to Russian Kilo's or Lada. Besides, 8 near-peer subs is better then 0 peer subs.



And all those subs will be built as per PN requirement which have vast experience with western tech and tactics which will improve final product.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Lovely purchase , would have been nice to get these in 2018


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## Thorough Pro

Supposedly these are going to be our "2nd strike capability", rest assured they will be if not the best, very darned close to that 

QUOTE="Bilal Khan (Quwa), post: 9446144, member: 178483"]As per Reuters, Chinese submarines use license-built MTU engines. I don't know if this is true or not, but at the end of the day, Pakistan will get what it pays for... If it'll pay up for the S26 with MTU engines, Fincantieri fuel-cell AIP as well as European subsystems and weapons, then it'll get that. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll ever know in either scenario ... if the subs are really nicely equipped, the PN may not want to jeopardize its supply channels by disclosing the specific systems. On the other hand, if they're not great, the PN won't want anyone else to know it.[/QUOTE]

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## Readerdefence

Thorough Pro said:


> Supposedly these are going to be our "2nd strike capability", rest assured they will be if not the best, very darned close to that
> 
> QUOTE="Bilal Khan (Quwa), post: 9446144, member: 178483"]As per Reuters, Chinese submarines use license-built MTU engines. I don't know if this is true or not, but at the end of the day, Pakistan will get what it pays for... If it'll pay up for the S26 with MTU engines, Fincantieri fuel-cell AIP as well as European subsystems and weapons, then it'll get that. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll ever know in either scenario ... if the subs are really nicely equipped, the PN may not want to jeopardize its supply channels by disclosing the specific systems. On the other hand, if they're not great, the PN won't want anyone else to know it.


[/QUOTE]
Hi I think PN credibility is at stake after getting these 8 subs I don't think 
They can get anymore from anywhere so easily alas PN must have gone through
All the available Chinese tech beside there must be some clue that why we are 
Getting first one 2022 coz Chinese must be polishing their AIP skills beside Pakistan
Might be trying to put on some western tech on these subs through one way or the 
Other to cut in short the story Chinese and Pakistanis they both need time to shape
These subs according to PN requirements


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## Thorough Pro

You are mistaken, Pakistan has access to a lot of western tech, so the PN does the usual mix and match to get the max bang for the buck. The delay is due to major design changes and we will not get the first sub in 2022, rather first batch

Hi I think PN credibility is at stake after getting these 8 subs I don't think
They can get anymore from anywhere so easily alas PN must have gone through
All the available Chinese tech beside there must be some clue that why we are
Getting first one 2022 coz Chinese must be polishing their AIP skills beside Pakistan
Might be trying to put on some western tech on these subs through one way or the
Other to cut in short the story Chinese and Pakistanis they both need time to shape
These subs according to PN requirements [/QUOTE]

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## ziaulislam

date 2022 is not bad if its the induction date.
first sub will take 24 months to build and 4-6 months in sea trials. si if work starts in 2018 than 2021-2022 is a normal time frame, expect 1 sub every 8-12 months from than


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## AUz

We will finish getting these subs in 2028!!!

These subs must be futuristic and top, top technology....otherwise, they'll be outdated by the time we finish inducting them.

I don't know what's going through in the minds of Pakistani planners.


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## Mugwop

AUz said:


> We will finish getting these subs in 2028!!!
> 
> These subs must be futuristic and top, top technology....otherwise, they'll be outdated by the time we finish inducting them.
> 
> I don't know what's going through in the minds of Pakistani planners.


With CPEC in mind they are finally realizing their mistake


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## AUz

Mugwop said:


> With CPEC in mind they are finally realizing their mistake



How can you say they are realizing their mistakes?


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## salarsikander

AUz said:


> We will finish getting these subs in 2028!!!
> 
> These subs must be futuristic and top, top technology....otherwise, they'll be outdated by the time we finish inducting them.
> 
> I don't know what's going through in the minds of Pakistani planners.


Jani, submarine tech is not iphone which comesmwith new feature every year for that matter


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## AUz

salarsikander said:


> Jani, submarine tech is not iphone which comesmwith new feature every year for that matter



Lol, I know that.

Regardless, my comment stands.


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## JK!

Out of curiosity why did Pakistan not induct more Agosta 90Bs? That deal came with full ToT and licence production that included the ability to sell to third parties.

Any ideas @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## salarsikander

AUz said:


> Lol, I know that.
> 
> Regardless, my comment stands.


The incremental upgrades can be equipped, as i said you wont get any breakthrough tech in that which will make submarine detectable, if it does, accoeding to requirememt upgradws can be xone

Your comments has no technical merits to stand


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## Fledgingwings

Let the Water Beauties COME IN....


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JK! said:


> Out of curiosity why did Pakistan not induct more Agosta 90Bs? That deal came with full ToT and licence production that included the ability to sell to third parties.
> 
> Any ideas @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Honestly, I don't believe the Agosta 90Bs came with enough ToT to enable Pakistan to independently produce the requisite steel, the ship structure, etc. In fact, the recurring theme with our warship 'ToT' ventures at KSEW is that KSEW basically assembles the ship using kits from abroad.

So the question is, "why did Pakistan spend the money on ToT for just PNS Hamza?" Well, the Agosta 90B ToT did come with enough to enable KSEW to integrate the MESMA AIP systems to PNS Khalid, Saad and Hamza. It also got enough insight into integrating subsystems, which it is now using to undertake an upgrade program with the Turkish firm STM. To integrate stuff from Turkey, Germany and Britain onto a French hull needs native ability, which is likely the area the ToT built or KSEW.

As to why the PN didn't order more Agosta 90Bs. The PN decided to pivot to a newer platform and it chose the Type 214. It would have had 3 boats assembled at KSEW, but that program collapsed in the Zardari-era.

They then opted for the Hangor (likely CSIC S26 variant) from China - this is coming with a training centre for KSEW. At the minimum, this will likely be end-chain assembly and deep level ability to integrate subsystems, weapons and maybe even propulsion (e.g. AIP) of choice at will.

The Agosta 90B ToT is basically why a small part of me hopes (maybe against better judgment) that the PN will fit the Hangor with the same subsystems as the upgraded Agosta 90B (i.e. Scorpene/Type 214 standard) and a third-party fuel-cell AIP system.

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## Readerdefence

Thorough Pro said:


> You are mistaken, Pakistan has access to a lot of western tech, so the PN does the usual mix and match to get the max bang for the buck. The delay is due to major design changes and we will not get the first sub in 2022, rather first batch
> 
> 
> Hi I think PN credibility is at stake after getting these 8 subs I don't think
> They can get anymore from anywhere so easily alas PN must have gone through
> All the available Chinese tech beside there must be some clue that why we are
> Getting first one 2022 coz Chinese must be polishing their AIP skills beside Pakistan
> Might be trying to put on some western tech on these subs through one way or the
> Other to cut in short the story Chinese and Pakistanis they both need time to shape
> These subs according to PN requirements


[/QUOTE]
Hi hi I'm not saying Pakistan doesn't have access to western technology alas
In this scenario and present mode of payment from china we can't get anything 
From the western world & offcourse money matters specially giving cutting edge
Technology to Pakistan so my opinion is china is trying to give us the best possible 
Technology according to our desire and means 
Thx


----------



## JK!

*Pakistan Seeks To Energize Naval Modernization*
*By: Usman Ansari, June 17, 2015*

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan hopes to revive its naval modernization program through a warship construction deal with China that will also expand Pakistan's shipbuilding industry.

Chinese media reports have outlined a construction program involving six of eight S-20 variants of the Type-039A/Type-041 submarine under negotiation; four "Improved F-22P" frigates equipped with enhanced sensors and weaponry (possibly including the HQ-17 surface-to-air missile developed from the Russian Tor 1/SA-N-9); and six Type-022 Houbei stealth catamaran missile boats, to be built by Pakistan's state-owned shipbuilder Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW).

The reports indicate Type-022 construction may be delayed by the ongoing Azmat fast attack craft building program, but also highlight a significant expansion of KSEW's facilities. 

These include a foundry, fabrication facilities to cover all aspects of ship construction, berthing facilities, and two graving docks of 26,000 and 18,000 dead weight tons, spread over 71 acres. 

A 7,881-ton ship lift transfer system will be completed next year. 

KSEW will expand to occupy facilities vacated by the Navy as it transfers from Karachi to Ormara. The Pakistan Navy Dockyard, which is adjacent to KSEW, already has facilities upgraded by the French during construction of Agosta-90B submarines. 

Pakistani officials would not comment on these reports. Repeated attempts to secure comment from the Ministry of Defence Production, KSEW, the Navy and federal politicians connected with defense decision-making bodies were turned away. 

The program will follow a Sino-Pakistani agreement for six patrol vessels for Pakistan's Maritime Security Agency agreed to on June 10, with two built by KSEW.

Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad Brian Cloughley said the groundwork laid by the Agosta-90B program that included upgrades to PN Dockyard facilities and the training of some 1,000 civilian technicians greatly facilitated present plans. 

However, Trevor Taylor, professorial research fellow, defense, industries and society, at the Royal United Services Institute highlighted the problems KSEW's construction and expansion plans could encounter. 

"Experience from around the world shows that it is very easy to be optimistic about the difficulty of naval shipbuilding and the time taken to complete construction and systems integration," he said. "Plans for rapid expansion of warship production are unlikely to proceed on schedule. The coordinated and sustained application of extensive managerial and technical skills is required, and submarines especially have vital safety dimensions."

He highlights the importance of a sustainable program.

"The lesson from the UK and elsewhere is that, once a warship design and build capability is in place, it is best maintained and developed through a planned and steady drumbeat of programs, rather than a rapid expansion of activity for a limited period of years followed by a sudden drop-off in orders. Clearly this requires a consistent stance of support for the industry from political authorities."

Cloughley is optimistic, however, that the extensive Chinese help provided to Pakistan in warship construction, in addition to agreements made during Chinese President Xi Jinping's recent visit, "indicate that all types of cooperation will continue and expand."

He said this is related to the burgeoning Indo-US relationship, India's increasingly antagonistic anti-Pakistani rhetoric, and clearer Sino-Indian divisions that mean the Sino-Pakistan "axis of understanding has become more tangible."

Consequently, "KSEW can expect considerable input from such as [China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co]. Money, certainly; but also, and perhaps of more importance, provision of expertise."

He said China's help will also further increase the number of skilled technicians as "there are many would-be technicians with great potential who cannot obtain training," which China is aware of "and has planned accordingly," with KSEW also running a training program.

Cloughley said the Chinese investment and involvement will ensure the program's sustainability.

"Given China's amazingly large financial commitment to cooperation with Pakistan, there is no doubt that Beijing will be calling the tune. And KSEW and many other establishments will be pleased to dance to it."

Though the naval expansion plan is impressive and will ensure future refit and modernization work, analyst Haris Kahn of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said with the decommissioning of Type-21 frigates it still only meets Pakistan's "minimum naval deterrence." 

"The Navy needs close to 20 large surface vessels [frigates and heavy frigates]" of which at least three should be ships able to provide area air defense, as the "F-22P will not cut it and the need of longer-range SAM coverage is essential."

"Unfortunately, with the serious shortage of funds we have not even heard about anywhere else the Navy is looking to get these much-needed vessels," he added. 

To meet its requirements for larger warships, Pakistan had hoped to acquire approximately six Perry-class frigates from the US, but Nilanthi Samaranayake, Indian Ocean analyst at the US-based CNA, a nonprofit research and analysis organization, said this route is now blocked "due to congressional obstacles."

However, Samaranayake still sees a need for such frigates to "support its counterpiracy and maritime security operations under combined maritime forces." 

Cloughley cites Indian influence in Washington for their unavailability, but though Pakistan still desires more Perry-class frigates "on easy or gift terms ... the lure of Chinese ships combined with the massive [Chinese] investment program and Pakistan's increasing disenchantment with Washington would seem to militate against any movement [toward the US]," and Pakistan will certainly look to China in time.

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ilding-china-frigates-dockyard-ksew/71074464/


http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ormer-us-secdefs-china-peace-taiwan/78744820/

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...na-finalize-8-sub-construction-plan/73634218/

Couple of additional articles from same site as above article. There are some useful insights and good analysis.

They are dated admittedly from 2015 so any input about present situation would be good.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Penguin @fatman17 @MastanKhan @TheOccupiedKashmir @Arsalan

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## Penguin

Clearly, land based HQ-17 is a modified Russian Tor vehicle and missile system. However, I would be very curious if China offers a naval variant, and what this would look like in terms of e.g. VLS/mount and associated radar(s) and electro-optronics. Esp. since China has not (yet) adopted a naval variant itself.

*Naval version of Tor-M2 as shown by Almaz-Antey during IMDS 2013 naval defence exhibition*









http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...on-of-tor-m2u-air-defense-missile-system.html

Reactions: Like Like:
4


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## Gryphon

JK! said:


> *Pakistan Seeks To Energize Naval Modernization*
> *By: Usman Ansari, June 17, 2015*
> 
> ISLAMABAD — Pakistan hopes to revive its naval modernization program through a warship construction deal with China that will also expand Pakistan's shipbuilding industry.
> 
> Chinese media reports have outlined a construction program involving six of eight S-20 variants of the Type-039A/Type-041 submarine under negotiation; four "Improved F-22P" frigates equipped with enhanced sensors and weaponry (possibly including the HQ-17 surface-to-air missile developed from the Russian Tor 1/SA-N-9); and six Type-022 Houbei stealth catamaran missile boats, to be built by Pakistan's state-owned shipbuilder Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW).
> 
> The reports indicate Type-022 construction may be delayed by the ongoing Azmat fast attack craft building program, but also highlight a significant expansion of KSEW's facilities.
> 
> These include a foundry, fabrication facilities to cover all aspects of ship construction, berthing facilities, and two graving docks of 26,000 and 18,000 dead weight tons, spread over 71 acres.
> 
> A 7,881-ton ship lift transfer system will be completed next year.
> 
> KSEW will expand to occupy facilities vacated by the Navy as it transfers from Karachi to Ormara. The Pakistan Navy Dockyard, which is adjacent to KSEW, already has facilities upgraded by the French during construction of Agosta-90B submarines.
> 
> Pakistani officials would not comment on these reports. Repeated attempts to secure comment from the Ministry of Defence Production, KSEW, the Navy and federal politicians connected with defense decision-making bodies were turned away.
> 
> The program will follow a Sino-Pakistani agreement for six patrol vessels for Pakistan's Maritime Security Agency agreed to on June 10, with two built by KSEW.
> 
> Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad Brian Cloughley said the groundwork laid by the Agosta-90B program that included upgrades to PN Dockyard facilities and the training of some 1,000 civilian technicians greatly facilitated present plans.
> 
> However, Trevor Taylor, professorial research fellow, defense, industries and society, at the Royal United Services Institute highlighted the problems KSEW's construction and expansion plans could encounter.
> 
> "Experience from around the world shows that it is very easy to be optimistic about the difficulty of naval shipbuilding and the time taken to complete construction and systems integration," he said. "Plans for rapid expansion of warship production are unlikely to proceed on schedule. The coordinated and sustained application of extensive managerial and technical skills is required, and submarines especially have vital safety dimensions."
> 
> He highlights the importance of a sustainable program.
> 
> "The lesson from the UK and elsewhere is that, once a warship design and build capability is in place, it is best maintained and developed through a planned and steady drumbeat of programs, rather than a rapid expansion of activity for a limited period of years followed by a sudden drop-off in orders. Clearly this requires a consistent stance of support for the industry from political authorities."
> 
> Cloughley is optimistic, however, that the extensive Chinese help provided to Pakistan in warship construction, in addition to agreements made during Chinese President Xi Jinping's recent visit, "indicate that all types of cooperation will continue and expand."
> 
> He said this is related to the burgeoning Indo-US relationship, India's increasingly antagonistic anti-Pakistani rhetoric, and clearer Sino-Indian divisions that mean the Sino-Pakistan "axis of understanding has become more tangible."
> 
> Consequently, "KSEW can expect considerable input from such as [China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co]. Money, certainly; but also, and perhaps of more importance, provision of expertise."
> 
> He said China's help will also further increase the number of skilled technicians as "there are many would-be technicians with great potential who cannot obtain training," which China is aware of "and has planned accordingly," with KSEW also running a training program.
> 
> Cloughley said the Chinese investment and involvement will ensure the program's sustainability.
> 
> "Given China's amazingly large financial commitment to cooperation with Pakistan, there is no doubt that Beijing will be calling the tune. And KSEW and many other establishments will be pleased to dance to it."
> 
> Though the naval expansion plan is impressive and will ensure future refit and modernization work, analyst Haris Kahn of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said with the decommissioning of Type-21 frigates it still only meets Pakistan's "minimum naval deterrence."
> 
> "The Navy needs close to 20 large surface vessels [frigates and heavy frigates]" of which at least three should be ships able to provide area air defense, as the "F-22P will not cut it and the need of longer-range SAM coverage is essential."
> 
> "Unfortunately, with the serious shortage of funds we have not even heard about anywhere else the Navy is looking to get these much-needed vessels," he added.
> 
> To meet its requirements for larger warships, Pakistan had hoped to acquire approximately six Perry-class frigates from the US, but Nilanthi Samaranayake, Indian Ocean analyst at the US-based CNA, a nonprofit research and analysis organization, said this route is now blocked "due to congressional obstacles."
> 
> However, Samaranayake still sees a need for such frigates to "support its counterpiracy and maritime security operations under combined maritime forces."
> 
> Cloughley cites Indian influence in Washington for their unavailability, but though Pakistan still desires more Perry-class frigates "on easy or gift terms ... the lure of Chinese ships combined with the massive [Chinese] investment program and Pakistan's increasing disenchantment with Washington would seem to militate against any movement [toward the US]," and Pakistan will certainly look to China in time.
> 
> Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ilding-china-frigates-dockyard-ksew/71074464/
> 
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ormer-us-secdefs-china-peace-taiwan/78744820/
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...na-finalize-8-sub-construction-plan/73634218/
> 
> Couple of additional articles from same site as above article. There are some useful insights and good analysis.
> 
> They are dated admittedly from 2015 so any input about present situation would be good.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Penguin @fatman17 @MastanKhan @TheOccupiedKashmir @Arsalan



Navy did not order additional F-22P frigates due to financial constraints.

A deal for 4 Corvette's (based on the Milgem Ada / LF-2400) is being negotiated with STM, Turkey and will likely be finalized in 2-3 months.

Regarding Type 022 Houbei, there were media reports few years back that PN wanted to acquire six. STM, Turkey has jumped into the competition with its FAC-55.

Contract for 8 AIP submarines was signed two years ago. Deliveries will start in 2022.

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## CHI RULES

Considering new threats and challenges with CPEC project I may like to ask people here that is it enough to get only 4 Milgem Variants as PN shall have to retire five F21 class frigates soon which have passed their useful life long ago.

Further as per my thinking the FACs are there to support frigates/destroyers rather than substitute them.

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## Army research

Could it be that these were deliberately delayed so as to have more tech available say in the last four to be built at Karachi? And say more cash post 2025 allows the last subs to be way advanced ?


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## JK!

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Navy did not order additional F-22P frigates due to financial constraints.
> 
> A deal for 4 Corvette's (based on the Milgem Ada / LF-2400) is being negotiated with STM, Turkey and will likely be finalized in 2-3 months.
> 
> Regarding Type 022 Houbei, there were media reports few years back that PN wanted to acquire six. STM, Turkey has jumped into the competition with its FAC-55.
> 
> Contract for 8 AIP submarines was signed two years ago. Deliveries will start in 2022.



I found the insight into the development and progression of KSEW in the article pretty beneficial here. As the commentators stated the intention seems to be to slowly build capability up to regularly build new ships.

As usual it seems to be financial constraints that are keeping things from moving forward and it's good at least the intention is there. 

Regarding the subs @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has mentioned the past tendency to build the platforms from kits as opposed to wholly being built in Pakistan. Further investment from STM will prove useful here for adding non Chinese subsystems.

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## khanasifm

1 f21 retired for spares and 1 going to be retro fitted for msa that leave 4 for now not sure how much life and spare supply left


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## khanasifm

The only time pn had 10 plus 3000 Ton plus fighting ships was in 80s

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## Basel

Penguin said:


> Clearly, land based HQ-17 is a modified Russian Tor vehicle and missile system. However, I would be very curious if China offers a naval variant, and what this would look like in terms of e.g. VLS/mount and associated radar(s) and electro-optronics. Esp. since China has not (yet) adopted a naval variant itself.
> 
> *Naval version of Tor-M2 as shown by Almaz-Antey during IMDS 2013 naval defence exhibition*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...on-of-tor-m2u-air-defense-missile-system.html



Do you think For latest version good enough for ships protection?

Also PN should look into new tech specially air defence for sub's and following route can be copied to add more protection to our upcoming 8 sub's.






@Penguin @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what is you opinion guys about air defence above mentioned, will it be good to have against IN?

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## fatman17

JK! said:


> *Pakistan Seeks To Energize Naval Modernization*
> *By: Usman Ansari, June 17, 2015*
> 
> ISLAMABAD — Pakistan hopes to revive its naval modernization program through a warship construction deal with China that will also expand Pakistan's shipbuilding industry.
> 
> Chinese media reports have outlined a construction program involving six of eight S-20 variants of the Type-039A/Type-041 submarine under negotiation; four "Improved F-22P" frigates equipped with enhanced sensors and weaponry (possibly including the HQ-17 surface-to-air missile developed from the Russian Tor 1/SA-N-9); and six Type-022 Houbei stealth catamaran missile boats, to be built by Pakistan's state-owned shipbuilder Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW).
> 
> The reports indicate Type-022 construction may be delayed by the ongoing Azmat fast attack craft building program, but also highlight a significant expansion of KSEW's facilities.
> 
> These include a foundry, fabrication facilities to cover all aspects of ship construction, berthing facilities, and two graving docks of 26,000 and 18,000 dead weight tons, spread over 71 acres.
> 
> A 7,881-ton ship lift transfer system will be completed next year.
> 
> KSEW will expand to occupy facilities vacated by the Navy as it transfers from Karachi to Ormara. The Pakistan Navy Dockyard, which is adjacent to KSEW, already has facilities upgraded by the French during construction of Agosta-90B submarines.
> 
> Pakistani officials would not comment on these reports. Repeated attempts to secure comment from the Ministry of Defence Production, KSEW, the Navy and federal politicians connected with defense decision-making bodies were turned away.
> 
> The program will follow a Sino-Pakistani agreement for six patrol vessels for Pakistan's Maritime Security Agency agreed to on June 10, with two built by KSEW.
> 
> Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad Brian Cloughley said the groundwork laid by the Agosta-90B program that included upgrades to PN Dockyard facilities and the training of some 1,000 civilian technicians greatly facilitated present plans.
> 
> However, Trevor Taylor, professorial research fellow, defense, industries and society, at the Royal United Services Institute highlighted the problems KSEW's construction and expansion plans could encounter.
> 
> "Experience from around the world shows that it is very easy to be optimistic about the difficulty of naval shipbuilding and the time taken to complete construction and systems integration," he said. "Plans for rapid expansion of warship production are unlikely to proceed on schedule. The coordinated and sustained application of extensive managerial and technical skills is required, and submarines especially have vital safety dimensions."
> 
> He highlights the importance of a sustainable program.
> 
> "The lesson from the UK and elsewhere is that, once a warship design and build capability is in place, it is best maintained and developed through a planned and steady drumbeat of programs, rather than a rapid expansion of activity for a limited period of years followed by a sudden drop-off in orders. Clearly this requires a consistent stance of support for the industry from political authorities."
> 
> Cloughley is optimistic, however, that the extensive Chinese help provided to Pakistan in warship construction, in addition to agreements made during Chinese President Xi Jinping's recent visit, "indicate that all types of cooperation will continue and expand."
> 
> He said this is related to the burgeoning Indo-US relationship, India's increasingly antagonistic anti-Pakistani rhetoric, and clearer Sino-Indian divisions that mean the Sino-Pakistan "axis of understanding has become more tangible."
> 
> Consequently, "KSEW can expect considerable input from such as [China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co]. Money, certainly; but also, and perhaps of more importance, provision of expertise."
> 
> He said China's help will also further increase the number of skilled technicians as "there are many would-be technicians with great potential who cannot obtain training," which China is aware of "and has planned accordingly," with KSEW also running a training program.
> 
> Cloughley said the Chinese investment and involvement will ensure the program's sustainability.
> 
> "Given China's amazingly large financial commitment to cooperation with Pakistan, there is no doubt that Beijing will be calling the tune. And KSEW and many other establishments will be pleased to dance to it."
> 
> Though the naval expansion plan is impressive and will ensure future refit and modernization work, analyst Haris Kahn of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said with the decommissioning of Type-21 frigates it still only meets Pakistan's "minimum naval deterrence."
> 
> "The Navy needs close to 20 large surface vessels [frigates and heavy frigates]" of which at least three should be ships able to provide area air defense, as the "F-22P will not cut it and the need of longer-range SAM coverage is essential."
> 
> "Unfortunately, with the serious shortage of funds we have not even heard about anywhere else the Navy is looking to get these much-needed vessels," he added.
> 
> To meet its requirements for larger warships, Pakistan had hoped to acquire approximately six Perry-class frigates from the US, but Nilanthi Samaranayake, Indian Ocean analyst at the US-based CNA, a nonprofit research and analysis organization, said this route is now blocked "due to congressional obstacles."
> 
> However, Samaranayake still sees a need for such frigates to "support its counterpiracy and maritime security operations under combined maritime forces."
> 
> Cloughley cites Indian influence in Washington for their unavailability, but though Pakistan still desires more Perry-class frigates "on easy or gift terms ... the lure of Chinese ships combined with the massive [Chinese] investment program and Pakistan's increasing disenchantment with Washington would seem to militate against any movement [toward the US]," and Pakistan will certainly look to China in time.
> 
> Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ilding-china-frigates-dockyard-ksew/71074464/
> 
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ormer-us-secdefs-china-peace-taiwan/78744820/
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...na-finalize-8-sub-construction-plan/73634218/
> 
> Couple of additional articles from same site as above article. There are some useful insights and good analysis.
> 
> They are dated admittedly from 2015 so any input about present situation would be good.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Penguin @fatman17 @MastanKhan @TheOccupiedKashmir @Arsalan



Pakistan seems to be headed that way (China) for big ticket items because of the Chinese soft loans offers but they have to be paid back in the medium term. having said that the love affair with American war material is still strong within the Pakistan military and will continue to pursue such items like F16s and attack helos. Pakistan has however diversified its supply chain with strong defense ties with Italy, turkey and the Ukraine for SAMS, tanks and SP guns. ties with Moscow are slowly moving forward but I don't see much progress beyond jet engines and helos. similarly Pakistan is trying to engage RSA for war materials like MRAPS, SP guns etc,

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## Penguin

khanasifm said:


> The only time pn had 10 plus 3000 Ton plus fighting ships was in 80s


6 Brooke and 6 Garcia class frigates, plus 1 County class and 2 Leander, IIRC.



khanasifm said:


> 1 f21 retired for spares and 1 going to be retro fitted for msa that leave 4 for now not sure how much life and spare supply left


Ship - First Commissioned - Builder - PN service
Amazone 11-5-1974 Vosper 1993 to Pakistan as _PNS Babur_ (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Type 992 radar, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, 2x4 Harpoon and Phalanx)
Active 17-6-1977 Vosper 1994 to Pakistan as _PNS Shahjahan_ (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Type 992 radar, _STWS_-1 triple-tube launchers for US Mark 44 or Mark 46 torpedoes, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, 2x4 Harpoon and Phalanx)
Ambuscade 5-9-1975 Yarrow 1993 to Pakistan as _PNS Tariq_ (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Signaal/Thales DA08 radar, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, LY-60 SAM and 2x30mm, later replaced by Phalanx)
Arrow 29-7-1976 Yarrow 1994 to Pakistan as _PNS Khaibar_ (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Signaal/Thales DA08 radar, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, LY-60 SAM and 2x30mm, later replaced by Phalanx)
Alacrity 2-7-1977 Yarrow 1994 to Pakistan as _PNS Badr_ (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Type 992 radar, _STWS_-1 triple-tube launchers for US Mark 44 or Mark 46 torpedoes, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, 2x4 Harpoon and Phalanx)
Avenger 19-7-1978 Yarrow 1994 to Pakistan as _PNS Tippu Sultan_ (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Signaal/Thales DA08 radar, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, LY-60 SAM and 2x30mm, later replaced by Phalanx)

PNS Badr & Babur decommissioned from PN.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> STM, Turkey has jumped into the competition with its FAC-55.


IMHO a more capable and useful craft.




http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...raft-fac-55-about-to-sail-the-world-seas.html



Basel said:


> Do you think For latest version good enough for ships protection?


If buying Russian, several options would be available including the naval versions of the latest Tor and Pantsir air defence vehicles. While different, both are capable systems, if with different specializations.

KBP's Pantsir-M is designed to take on a variety of targets flying at low or extremely low altitudes.Almaz-Antey's Tor-M designed to attack aircraft, helicopters, aerodynamic UAVs, guided missiles and other components of high precision weapons flying at medium, low and extremely low altitudes in adverse air and jamming environment. 

Already in the older Klinok version (alka 3K95 Kinzhal) was designed to provide self-defense for surface ships _against mass attacks_ from low-flying anti-ship missiles, other unmanned and manned assault aircraft and weapon, as well as attacks from ships including wing-in-ground effect craft.
http://www.almaz-antey.ru/en/catalogue/millitary_catalogue/1218/1222/1236/1239

Main drawback was the huge firecontrol radar 'complex'.

In the PN context a Naval Tor is probably a better choice than naval Pantsir, in view of its ability to deal with mass attack from multiple directions, esp. if fitted with a fixed four face firecontrol radar mast (which eliminates the drawback of having to aim the guidance radar in any one direction in particular, which is usefull when combined with VLS). But like I said, I would like to see some more specifics of any Chinese HQ17 variant offered, as this would likely differ from the Russian naval Tor.





http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...-pantsir-s1-for-surface-ship-air-defense.html
http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...ervice-with-russian-navy-before-year-end.html



Basel said:


> Also PN should look into new tech specially air defence for sub's and following route can be copied to add more protection to our upcoming 8 sub's.



Nice to have as last ditch "when we have no other choice" situations, but subs should preferably not put themselves in any situation where they actually can or have to engage MPAs or ASW-helicopters.... esp. if/when carrying nuclear armed missiles.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IMO the PN shouldn't shy away from <3,000-ton light frigates to build a surface warship fleet. Larger ships (of any origin) are generally costly to buy and operate, while smaller ships could possibly be had for a reasonable budget but still deliver useful AShW, ASW and AAW capabilities. Yes, AAW will depend on Pakistan's access to VLS-based SAMs, but with the MoU with South Africa and ongoing ties with Turkey, this shouldn't be a major problem. 

I personally like the STM LF-2400. It looks like a well-rounded and capable enough design to meet the PN's peacetime EEZ and SLOC duties and wartime A2/AD needs. The ASW element is useful. The AAW element (via 16 VLS cells) has potential, especially if a MR-SAM is secured and, in time, supplanted by a Barak-8-like MR/LR-SAM.

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## JK!

The second strike capability using SLCM version of Babur will be the most beneficial. Even here in the U.K. when the discussion of Trident system replacement is debated the most cost effective alternative mooted is a nuclear tipped cruise missile system.

It means the subs can be double hatted and used either conventionally or in the extreme second strike role.

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## Inception-06

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 8 subs deal and around 10 years +++ delivery time is an overall bad deal tactically---.
> 
> Tactically---it should have been split---if not aircraft then between surface fleet and sub surface fleet---and then another deal signed after 5 years---.
> 
> The deal was signed in this manner is due to ' VERY ' large kickbacks---.
> 
> Otherwise---there were those in the system who had opposed such a large deal---spanned over 10 years time for obvious reasons.



Who has opposed it and who is involved in the kickbacks ?

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## Readerdefence

Penguin said:


> 6 Brooke and 6 Garcia class frigates, plus 1 County class and 2 Leander, IIRC.
> 
> 
> Ship - First Commissioned - Builder - PN service
> Amazone 11-5-1974 Vosper 1993 to Pakistan as _PNS Babur_ (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Type 992 radar, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, 2x4 Harpoon and Phalanx)
> Active 17-6-1977 Vosper 1994 to Pakistan as _PNS Shahjahan_ (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Type 992 radar, _STWS_-1 triple-tube launchers for US Mark 44 or Mark 46 torpedoes, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, 2x4 Harpoon and Phalanx)
> Ambuscade 5-9-1975 Yarrow 1993 to Pakistan as _PNS Tariq_ (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Signaal/Thales DA08 radar, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, LY-60 SAM and 2x30mm, later replaced by Phalanx)
> Arrow 29-7-1976 Yarrow 1994 to Pakistan as _PNS Khaibar_ (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Signaal/Thales DA08 radar, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, LY-60 SAM and 2x30mm, later replaced by Phalanx)
> Alacrity 2-7-1977 Yarrow 1994 to Pakistan as _PNS Badr_ (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Type 992 radar, _STWS_-1 triple-tube launchers for US Mark 44 or Mark 46 torpedoes, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, 2x4 Harpoon and Phalanx)
> Avenger 19-7-1978 Yarrow 1994 to Pakistan as _PNS Tippu Sultan_ (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Signaal/Thales DA08 radar, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, LY-60 SAM and 2x30mm, later replaced by Phalanx)
> 
> PNS Badr & Babur decommissioned from PN.
> 
> 
> IMHO a more capable and useful craft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...raft-fac-55-about-to-sail-the-world-seas.html
> 
> 
> If buying Russian, several options would be available including the naval versions of the latest Tor and Pantsir air defence vehicles. While different, both are capable systems, if with different specializations.
> 
> KBP's Pantsir-M is designed to take on a variety of targets flying at low or extremely low altitudes.Almaz-Antey's Tor-M designed to attack aircraft, helicopters, aerodynamic UAVs, guided missiles and other components of high precision weapons flying at medium, low and extremely low altitudes in adverse air and jamming environment.
> 
> Already in the older Klinok version (alka 3K95 Kinzhal) was designed to provide self-defense for surface ships _against mass attacks_ from low-flying anti-ship missiles, other unmanned and manned assault aircraft and weapon, as well as attacks from ships including wing-in-ground effect craft.
> http://www.almaz-antey.ru/en/catalogue/millitary_catalogue/1218/1222/1236/1239
> 
> Main drawback was the huge firecontrol radar 'complex'.
> 
> In the PN context a Naval Tor is probably a better choice than naval Pantsir, in view of its ability to deal with mass attack from multiple directions, esp. if fitted with a fixed four face firecontrol radar mast (which eliminates the drawback of having to aim the guidance radar in any one direction in particular, which is usefull when combined with VLS). But like I said, I would like to see some more specifics of any Chinese HQ17 variant offered, as this would likely differ from the Russian naval Tor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...-pantsir-s1-for-surface-ship-air-defense.html
> http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...ervice-with-russian-navy-before-year-end.html
> 
> 
> 
> Nice to have as last ditch "when we have no other choice" situations, but subs should preferably not put themselves in any situation where they actually can or have to engage MPAs or ASW-helicopters.... esp. if/when carrying nuclear armed missiles.


Hi penguin you have any info about the Indian scorpion submarines specifications
In terms of Sam like the one DcNS are advertising on their submarines 
Will those Sam be attached to Indian subs ?
Thx


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## Penguin

Readerdefence said:


> Hi penguin you have any info about the Indian scorpion submarines specifications
> In terms of Sam like the one DcNS are advertising on their submarines
> Will those Sam be attached to Indian subs ?
> Thx


I don't know (but doubt it)

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## 帅的一匹

Ulla said:


> Who has opposed it and who is involved in the kickbacks ?


10 years for set up all the infrastructure and build up assembly line for Pakistan to churn out its domestic subs and TOT. Be patient my friend, there is no kickbacks. This is government to government deal, not a enterprise to government deal. Not a penny will be paid to PN top brass.

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## Inception-06

wanglaokan said:


> 10 years for set up all the infrastructure and build up assembly line for Pakistan to churn out its domestic subs and TOT. Be patient my friend, there is no kickbacks. This is government to government deal, not a enterprise to government deal. Not a penny will be paid to PN top brass.



YOU ARE MOST WELCOME, thx for the reply !

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## ali_raza

wanglaokan said:


> 10 years for set up all the infrastructure and build up assembly line for Pakistan to churn out its domestic subs and TOT. Be patient my friend, there is no kickbacks. This is government to government deal, not a enterprise to government deal. Not a penny will be paid to PN top brass.


what a relief dude.i hope everything is government to government

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## 帅的一匹

ali_raza said:


> what a relief dude.i hope everything is government to government


I hate corruption. You know China is running a national wide anti corruption campaign.

If there are any sign of kickback in this sub deal, I say cancel it.

You win contract by quality and price, not kickbacks. I strongly believe in it.

Rumors with malign intention spreading fast these days, we shall trust each other!!

I hope PN can disclose more detail and info regarding the deal.

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## MULUBJA

nadeemkhan110 said:


> This submarine can also carry nuclear weapon as you read in this article
> 
> 
> *But Type 098 is a latest Strategic Nuclear Submarine*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *China’s qianzhan published an article to bare the mystery of China’s most advanced 098 strategic submarines.*
> 
> The article says: Previously, Liaoning Vice Governor Tan Zuojung disclosed at a public occasion that PLA navy has completed development of its fourth-generation nuclear submarine.
> 
> Some experts believe that the information is quite reliable. However, there has been no public appearance of nor has the US ever detected China’s third-generation nuclear submarines.
> 
> Type 098 nuclear submarine adopts electromagnetic propulsion with zero noise, very high speed and instant great increase in power.
> 
> The above is Chinese media’s report on the submarine. At the same time US satellite has also found that China is building two new-type 098 fourth-generation strategic nuclear submarines.
> 
> It proves that China is developing effective second-strike capabilities. If one 098 can carry 12 submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) carrying 3 independently targetable warheads each, the two submarines under construction have effective second-strike capabilities of launching 108 nuclear warheads.
> 
> For nuclear security, a country shall have not only well hidden land-based mobile ICBMs but also SLBMs carried by its strategic nuclear submarines hidden underwater in Oceans as so far no country in the world is able to detect all the nuclear submarines of another country. China’s mobile ICBMs and SLBMs will constitute quite adequate nuclear deterrence.
> 
> In addition, China has built an underground base for its nuclear submarines to make it even more difficult for its enemy to detect and destroy its nuclear submarine.



Nuclear subs are good if you have to operate far away from your coast. Nuclear subs are noisy and easy to detect. AIP subs are good if you have to operate in vicinity of your coast line.


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## FuturePAF

Hopefully Chinese hackers got something out of the Scorpene leaks, so that Chinese Manufacturers can better understand and apply the latest french design elements to their AIP SSK Designs.

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## Bratva

4 x New Generation Submarines MoDP/PN has awarded contract for construction of 4 x AIP Submarines to Karachi Shipyard. M/s China Shipbuilding and Offshore Company will provide TDP, KoM and Technical Assistance for these Submarines under ToT arrangement. Extensive upgradation of yard and training will be imparted to KS&EW personnel. Steel cutting of first submarine will be held on 26 Oct 2020

MODP 2015-2016 Book

http://www.modp.gov.pk/modp/userfiles1/file/Year Book 2015-16 Part-II.pdf

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Penguin

Bratva said:


> 4 x New Generation Submarines MoDP/PN has awarded contract for construction of 4 x AIP Submarines to Karachi Shipyard. M/s China Shipbuilding and Offshore Company will provide TDP, KoM and Technical Assistance for these Submarines under ToT arrangement. Extensive upgradation of yard and training will be imparted to KS&EW personnel.* Steel cutting of first submarine will be held on 26 Oct 2020*
> 
> MODP 2015-2016 Book
> 
> http://www.modp.gov.pk/modp/userfiles1/file/Year Book 2015-16 Part-II.pdf
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


That's probably the second set of four. The first four will come from China.

See also sections on: 
Targets for 2016-2017, p10: indigenous design and construction of 01 midget submarine 
Projects in the pipeline, p. 86: contruction of corvettes for PN
Ship Lift and Transfer System, p.93: Submarines construction and launching will also be possible _for the first time_ in the country after completion of the project (NB: makes you wonder about the ToT by France to Pakistan in the context of the deal for the 3 Agosta 90Bs, doesn't it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agosta-class_submarine)

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## DESERT FIGHTER

FuturePAF said:


> Hopefully Chinese hackers got something out of the Scorpene leaks, so that Chinese Manufacturers can better understand and apply the latest french design elements to their AIP SSK Designs.


Scorpene sub documents have already been hacked by Chinese.


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## Hassan Guy

So the pakistani subs will use german engines?


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## Cool_Soldier

I am expecting something really potent and customize according to our needs.


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## 帅的一匹

Hassan Guy said:


> So the pakistani subs will use german engines?


German MTU 396SE85 Diesel engine or its Chinese version.

All Chinese type 039 conventional sub engine is derivative of German MTU disel engine, we have indegenized it with German's help.

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## salarsikander

wanglaokan said:


> German MTU 396SE85 Diesel engine or its Chinese version.
> 
> All Chinese type 039 conventional sub engine is derivative of German MTU disel engine, we have indegenized it with German's help.


Chinese never shy away from truth. Most hardworking and humble people on earth

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## 帅的一匹

All I know the new sub is named after him:
Hangor class


salarsikander said:


> Chinese never shy away from truth. Most hardworking and humble people on earth


We have very close relationship with German, they also sell China the MTU tank power package to power T99.

This guy is the Pakistani hero who sink India's frigate in 1971?

Vice Admiral Tasneem.

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## Rashid Mahmood

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 401588
> All I know the new sub is named after him:
> Hangor class
> 
> We have very close relationship with German, they also sell China the MTU tank power package to power T99.
> 
> This guy is the Pakistani hero who sink India's frigate in 1971?



Yes he was the Commanding Officer, Cdr Ahmed Tasneem.
He retired as an Admiral from the Navy. A legend and still living.

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## 帅的一匹

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Yes he was the Commanding Officer, Cdr Ahmed Tasneem.
> He retired as an Admiral from the Navy. A legend and still living.


The sub from China will be named after Hangor class.

Maybe one of it will be named as Tasneem.

Indians will wet their pants hearing the name.

Pakistan is able to churn out AIP Subs after the TOT from China , as many as you want.

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## Rashid Mahmood

wanglaokan said:


> The sub from China will be named after Hangor class.
> 
> Maybe one of it will be named as Tasneem.



Hangor was the name of the submarine and because of this sub sinking the IN ship, the new class is also named as Hangor class.

PN subs/ships are not named after people who are alive.

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## 帅的一匹

Hangor class engine is German MTU derivative and AIP of Sweden Sterlin Chinese TOT version.

Armed with supercavitating torpedo.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

wanglaokan said:


> Hangor class engine is German MTU derivative and AIP of Sweden Sterlin Chinese TOT version.
> 
> Armed with supercavitating torpedo.


Is the Dalian Institute working on a fuel-cell AIP?

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## 帅的一匹

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Is the Dalian Institute working on a fuel-cell AIP?


Yes. But the cost of Hydrogen fuel cell is very high and the lifespan is very short, not to mention the safety issue Laying with Hydrogen and Oxygen storage. Japan Soryu class also choose Sterlin than Hydrogen feuel cell. Maybe we are developing. Dalian is making breakthrough in Fuel cell Technology recently, but I don't know the detail.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

wanglaokan said:


> Yes. But the cost of Hydrogen fuel cell is very high and the lifespan is very short, not to mention the safety issue Laying with Hydrogen and Oxygen storage. Japan Soryu class also choose Sterlin than Hydrogen feuel cell. Maybe we are developing. Dalian is making breakthrough in Fuel cell Technology recently, but I don't know the detail.


Indeed, but the advantage is that fuel cells reduce the number of moving parts, thereby reducing vibration and acoustic signatures. It doesn't offer as much speed, but I don't think Pakistan is concerned about that, it needs a silent and stealthy system.

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## 帅的一匹

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Indeed, but the advantage is that fuel cells reduce the number of moving parts, thereby reducing vibration and acoustic signatures. It doesn't offer as much speed, but I don't think Pakistan is concerned about that, it needs a silent and stealthy system.


The current 039C is even quiter than Kilo, so no problem. Moving speed is very important when two subs engaged.

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## Penguin

wanglaokan said:


> German MTU 396SE85 Diesel engine or its Chinese version.
> 
> All Chinese type 039 conventional sub engine is derivative of German MTU disel engine, we have indegenized it with German's help.



China has been importing the German MTU 396 SE85 diesel engines since late 1980s, early 1990s. These engines are used to power submarines, specifically, the 039A ("Song") class.

Current MTU 396 TE54 series engines includes V8, V12 and V16 cylinder variants, respectively MTU 8V396 , MTU 12V396, MTU 16V396, ranging in power from 912 bhp (680 kW) to 2119 bhp (1580 kW).

https://www.mtu-online.com/india/pr...-and-diesel-electric-drive/?L=dttwtmegzigftpb

http://www.globalsources.com/si/AS/...-generator-and-parts-MTU-8V396/1050739290.htm

"the most strategic item obtained by China on its European shopping spree is below the waterline: the German-engineered diesels inside its submarines. Emulating the rising powers of last century - Germany, Japan and the Soviet Union - China is building a powerful submarine fleet, including domestically built Song and Yuan-class boats. The beating hearts of these subs are state-of-the-art diesel engines designed by MTU Friedrichshafen GmbH of Friedrichshafen, Germany."
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...the-art-diesel-engines/slideshow/27794461.cms

Arms trade data from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) to the end of 2012 shows that 56 MTU-designed diesels for submarines have been supplied to the Chinese navy.
High-performance diesels from MTU and French engine maker Pielstick also drive many of China's most advanced surface warships and support vessels, SIPRI data shows. Pielstick was jointly owned by MTU and German multinational Man Diesel & Turbo until 2006, when Man took full control.
Some military analysts remain skeptical about the quality of China's military hardware. They say the engines and technology the PLA is incorporating from Europe and Russia fall short of the latest equipment in service with the United States and its allies in Asia, including Japan, South Korea and Australia. This leaves the PLA a generation behind and struggling to integrate gear from a range of different suppliers, they say.
Others counter that China doesn't need to match all of the most complex weapons fielded by the United States and its allies. Even if it deploys less than the best gear, Beijing can achieve its strategic goal
Arms industry experts say dual-use transfers are almost certainly more valuable to the PLA than the actual weapons Europe has delivered.
MTU is a unit of Germany's Tognum Group, which is jointly owned by UK-based multinational Rolls Royce Group PLC and Germany's Daimler AG. Contracts with the PLA and powerful defense manufacturers give MTU and its parent influence in competing for contracts in China's massive civilian market. China's biggest arms maker, China North Industries Group Corporation, or Norinco, has been making MTU engines under license since 1986.
In 2010, Tognum opened a joint venture with Norinco to assemble large, high speed MTU diesel engines and emergency generators at a plant in the city of Datong in Shanxi Province.
MTU engines are also built under license at the Shaanxi Diesel Engine Heavy Industry Co Ltd, a subsidiary of one of China's two sprawling military and commercial shipbuilders.
Submarine diesel technology is hardly new, but these engines are built to exacting standards to ensure reliability under extreme conditions. MTU has been building them for more than 50 years. The engine delivered to China for the Song and Yuan classes, the MTU 396 SE84 series, is one of the world's most widely used submarine power plants. Each of the Chinese submarines has three MTU diesels, according to technical specifications listed in Chinese military affairs journals and websites.
http://in.reuters.com/article/breakout-submarines-special-report-pix-g-idINL4N0JJ0FM20131219

Indonesia's DSME Type 209 submarines are powered by 4 V12-cylinder MTU 396 SE84 diesel gensets, each rated 700kW at 1800 rpm.
http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1yajq/MarinePropulsionAugS/resources/content/192.swf

I figure the correct designation of the diesel engines is MTU 12V396 SE84, with a power output of 700kW (939 bhp)

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## salarsikander

Penguin said:


> China has been importing the German MTU 396 SE85 diesel engines since late 1980s, early 1990s. These engines are used to power submarines, specifically, the 039A ("Song") class.
> 
> Current MTU 396 TE54 series engines includes V8, V12 and V16 cylinder variants, respectively MTU 8V396 , MTU 12V396, MTU 16V396, ranging in power from 912 bhp (680 kW) to 2119 bhp (1580 kW).
> 
> https://www.mtu-online.com/india/pr...-and-diesel-electric-drive/?L=dttwtmegzigftpb
> 
> http://www.globalsources.com/si/AS/...-generator-and-parts-MTU-8V396/1050739290.htm
> 
> "the most strategic item obtained by China on its European shopping spree is below the waterline: the German-engineered diesels inside its submarines. Emulating the rising powers of last century - Germany, Japan and the Soviet Union - China is building a powerful submarine fleet, including domestically built Song and Yuan-class boats. The beating hearts of these subs are state-of-the-art diesel engines designed by MTU Friedrichshafen GmbH of Friedrichshafen, Germany."
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...the-art-diesel-engines/slideshow/27794461.cms
> 
> Arms trade data from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) to the end of 2012 shows that 56 MTU-designed diesels for submarines have been supplied to the Chinese navy.
> High-performance diesels from MTU and French engine maker Pielstick also drive many of China's most advanced surface warships and support vessels, SIPRI data shows. Pielstick was jointly owned by MTU and German multinational Man Diesel & Turbo until 2006, when Man took full control.
> Some military analysts remain skeptical about the quality of China's military hardware. They say the engines and technology the PLA is incorporating from Europe and Russia fall short of the latest equipment in service with the United States and its allies in Asia, including Japan, South Korea and Australia. This leaves the PLA a generation behind and struggling to integrate gear from a range of different suppliers, they say.
> Others counter that China doesn't need to match all of the most complex weapons fielded by the United States and its allies. Even if it deploys less than the best gear, Beijing can achieve its strategic goal
> Arms industry experts say dual-use transfers are almost certainly more valuable to the PLA than the actual weapons Europe has delivered.
> MTU is a unit of Germany's Tognum Group, which is jointly owned by UK-based multinational Rolls Royce Group PLC and Germany's Daimler AG. Contracts with the PLA and powerful defense manufacturers give MTU and its parent influence in competing for contracts in China's massive civilian market. China's biggest arms maker, China North Industries Group Corporation, or Norinco, has been making MTU engines under license since 1986.
> In 2010, Tognum opened a joint venture with Norinco to assemble large, high speed MTU diesel engines and emergency generators at a plant in the city of Datong in Shanxi Province.
> MTU engines are also built under license at the Shaanxi Diesel Engine Heavy Industry Co Ltd, a subsidiary of one of China's two sprawling military and commercial shipbuilders.
> Submarine diesel technology is hardly new, but these engines are built to exacting standards to ensure reliability under extreme conditions. MTU has been building them for more than 50 years. The engine delivered to China for the Song and Yuan classes, the MTU 396 SE84 series, is one of the world's most widely used submarine power plants. Each of the Chinese submarines has three MTU diesels, according to technical specifications listed in Chinese military affairs journals and websites.
> http://in.reuters.com/article/breakout-submarines-special-report-pix-g-idINL4N0JJ0FM20131219
> 
> Indonesia's DSME Type 209 submarines are powered by 4 V12-cylinder MTU 396 SE84 diesel gensets, each rated 700kW at 1800 rpm.
> http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1yajq/MarinePropulsionAugS/resources/content/192.swf
> 
> I figure the correct designation of the diesel engines is MTU 12V396 SE84, with a power output of 700kW (939 bhp)


Could please tell what MTU engine is. And how is it possible for China to a acquire such state of the art equipment. 
Also, does China produce these engines on their own ?


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## Penguin

wanglaokan said:


> supercavitating torpedo.


fast but dumb



salarsikander said:


> Could please tell what MTU engine is. And how is it possible for China to a acquire such state of the art equipment.
> Also, does China produce these engines on their own ?


Just did. Licence production (usually not the latest model, but a reliable relatively modern engine anyway: dual use technology)

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## 帅的一匹

salarsikander said:


> Could please tell what MTU engine is. And how is it possible for China to a acquire such state of the art equipment.
> Also, does China produce these engines on their own ?


If German wan to enter the huge civilian market of China, it has to TOT some military equipment as exchange. We had inducted hundred MTU disel engine so far.

Lot of deals under the table between China and Europe.

Don't forget China is the permanent Five, we have influence.

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## Thorough Pro

My dad praises him a lot for his professionalism and courage.



Rashid Mahmood said:


> Yes he was the Commanding Officer, Cdr Ahmed Tasneem.
> He retired as an Admiral from the Navy. A legend and still living.

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## khanasifm

The first one will be delivered in 5 years so who knows what the specs and technology will.look like at the time

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## LeGenD

salarsikander said:


> Chinese never shy away from truth. Most hardworking and humble people on earth


Most humble? No. 
Hardworking? Yes.

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## ghazi52



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## Max

wanglaokan said:


> This guy is the Pakistani hero who sink India's frigate in 1971?



one (kukri i suppose) was sunk while other (kirpan) was damage heavily and not entered in service again. so we can say 2 hits.

This is blackwood class frigate, which were sunk and damaged.

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## Malik Alashter

But why 5 billions for 8 S 20 this is as expensive as U12!?.


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## The Accountant

Malik Alashter said:


> But why 5 billions for 8 S 20 this is as expensive as U12!?.


Its inclusive of tot and probably some modification as per our needs and with ammunitions and spares ...

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## Malik Alashter

The Accountant said:


> Its inclusive of tot and probably some modification as per our needs and with ammunitions and spares ...


didn't thailand paid 390 per piece or those are different subs?.


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## Reichsmarschall

Malik Alashter said:


> didn't thailand paid 390 per piece or those are different subs?.


these subs will also carry some nasty weapons

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## The Accountant

Malik Alashter said:


> didn't thailand paid 390 per piece or those are different subs?.


Pakistan sub type and capabilities are still a mystery ... first boat to start inducting after 5 years from now means we have some special requirements and do remember that these submarines also have to carry nuclear tipped missiles ...

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Is there any approach to use stealthy materials as coating on Submarine body? I mean just like we use stealthy elements on body of fighter jets.

Or the submarine can only be get quietest if work gets performed inside the sub? on things exist inside the sub.


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## The Accountant

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Is there any approach to use stealthy materials as coating on Submarine body? I mean just like we use stealthy elements on body of fighter jets.
> 
> Or the submarine can only be get quietest if work gets performed inside the sub? on things exist inside the sub.


To identify submarine there are mainly two techniques ... change in magnetic field and acoustics ... 

there are various methods to make submarine useful like AIP so that submarine has to surface less and a tactical responses by moving dead slow ...

For magnetic deduction specialized non magnetic steels are in use but arr expensive ...

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## Max

Hammer Has Fallen said:


> B.S.
> No Kirpan was ever damaged.




_Kirpan_, Heavily damaged and put out of action by Pakistani submarine PNS _Hangor_ on 8 December 1971 during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwood-class_frigate#Indian_Navy


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## MastanKhan

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Is there any approach to use stealthy materials as coating on Submarine body? I mean just like we use stealthy elements on body of fighter jets.
> 
> Or the submarine can only be get quietest if work gets performed inside the sub? on things exist inside the sub.



Hi,

Modern expensive subs have rubber tiles on the outside of the hull---.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anechoic_tile

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## Max

Primo Victoria said:


> Lol. Wiki.
> - 'Loss of INS Khukri' by B. Harry (BRF)



Yeah wiki bcoz its infested by rats like you from eastern shithole. btw you took to much time to make your another account.. btw do you have any bharati sponsored source like this for PNS Ghazi which says Rajput destroyed it, post that too for feel good from another account 

@The Eagle @waz


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## Areesh

Primo Victoria said:


> You just got busted on INS Kirpan.



@WAJsal @waz @The Eagle @Oscar


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## The Eagle

Max said:


> Yeah wiki bcoz its infested by rats like you from eastern shithole. btw you took to much time to make your another account.. btw do you have any bharati sponsored source like this for PNS Ghazi which says Rajput destroyed it, post that too for feel good from another account
> 
> @The Eagle @waz





Areesh said:


> @WAJsal @waz @The Eagle @Oscar





Report firstly such members/posts with little bit of details/reason that seems suspicious and move-on as sometimes due to load of notifications, Mods misses the tagging. 

Regards,

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## 帅的一匹

Malik Alashter said:


> didn't thailand paid 390 per piece or those are different subs?.


S26T for Thailand and S20P for Pakistan, different types. And TOT for Pakistan, and off the shelf to Thailand.

The S20P is a customized version tailoring Pakistan navy's tactical need.

The acoustic quietness is approximately to 90DB.

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## Readerdefence

Malik Alashter said:


> But why 5 billions for 8 S 20 this is as expensive as U12!?.


Hi we were not allowed by the manufacturer to do any changes for housing the nuclear ballistic missiles in the subs
Thx


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## Arsalan

wanglaokan said:


> S26T for Thailand and S20P for Pakistan, different types. And TOT for Pakistan, and off the shelf to Thailand.
> 
> The S20P is a customized version tailoring Pakistan navy's tactical need.
> 
> The acoustic quietness is approximately to 90DB.


90dB is VERY impressive. Can you please share some source of this info or the reason that you think this is around 90dB? Also kindly please mentioned the speed at which we will get this noise signature. It surely will go up with speed.

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## 帅的一匹

Arsalan said:


> 90dB is VERY impressive. Can you please share some source of this info or the reason that you think this is around 90dB? Also kindly please mentioned the speed at which we will get this noise signature. It surely will go up with speed.


China PLAN vice Admiral Huang Guang Yu in CCTV4 disclosed that the current type 039b/c's ascoustic quietness is around 90 DB. Since the S20P is based on 039B, so I boldly presume it. You know there is always a dominating reason why PN choose this one

Since China had spent tons of money in noise reduction, time to harvest victory.

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## Arsalan

wanglaokan said:


> China PLAN vice Admiral Huang Guang Yu in CCTV4 disclosed that the current type 039b/c's ascoustic quietness is around 90 DB. Since the S20P is based on 039B, so I boldly presume it. You know there is always a dominating reason why PN choose this one
> 
> Since China had spent tons of money in noise reduction, time to harvest victory.


90 DB is VERY impressive. I hope it is at max speed or it is the max level the noise goes to. Even if it is normal speed noise level i think it is pretty decent.

@Penguin would you agree?


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## 帅的一匹

We prefer everything in low down. If all the stuff disclosed, our enemy can't sleep tight. You know the China threat theory.

Those black technology.....







I call it Soryu killer.

Look at the corner fillet in front of the conning tower to reduce the noise.

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## Readerdefence

wanglaokan said:


> We prefer everything in low down. If all the stuff disclosed, our enemy can't sleep tight. You know the China threat theory.
> 
> Those black technology.....
> 
> View attachment 404094
> 
> 
> I call it Soryu killer.
> 
> Look at the corner fillet in front of the conning tower to reduce the noise.


*Essay: Inside the Design of China’s Yuan-class Submarine*
By: Capt. Christopher P. Carlson, USN (Retired)
August 31, 2015 2:13 PM • Updated: August 31, 2015 5:39 PM




People’s Liberation Army’s Navy (PLAN) Yuan-class submarine.
China’s evolving submarine force is a topic worthy of sober examination and debate. However, for the discussion to be useful in informing both national policy-makers and citizenry alike, the content must be based on accurate data and sound analysis. Unfortunately, both are often found wanting when it comes to English-language reporting on the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN). A recent USNI News essay, continues this trend. In the essay, Henry Holst, argues that the Type 039A/B Yuan-class submarine was “designed primarily as an anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) platform capable of hiding submerged for long periods of time in difficult to access shallow littorals.”

He bases his conclusions on the _Yuan_’s “small” size, air-independent power (AIP) system, and long-range ASCM capability, which make it ideal to operate in shallow, coastal waters. While I wholeheartedly agree that the Type 039A/B is a fine anti-surface platform, the main points of the essay’s argument is based on a misunderstanding of largely inaccurate data. This rebuttal will examine the key points of the essay’s argument and show that the Type 039 A/B _Yuan_-class is, in fact, an open-ocean submarine designed to meet the needs of the PLAN’s near-seas active defense aspect of their maritime strategy, and not primarily a boat to operate in Taiwan’s coastal waters.

*Yuan-Class Submarine Size*
The assessment the Type 039A/B _Yuan_-class is a small submarine, designed to operate in the shallow littorals, is arguably the linchpin of the essay’s conclusion. A key point used in support of this position is a comparison of the _Yuan-_class with Japan’s Soryu-class, another AIP equipped submarine, where it is argued the _Yuan_ is comparatively “far smaller.”

In particular, Holst focuses in on the _Soryu_’s “draft” of 10.3 meters. This figure is highly suspect. When a submarine’s draft exceeds its beam, you might want to check your data. The 10.3-meter figure is not the draft of the Soryu class. Rather, it is the submarine’s “depth”— the vertical distance from its keel, to the top of the freeboard deck, measured at mid-length of the vessel. A submarine’s draft is included in its depth. A number of open sources list the _Soryu_’s draft as 8.5 meters, and a review of online photos of the fore and aft draft markings shows the draft as 8.3 meters, very close to the published value.

The description of the Type 039A/B Yuan-class submarine’s dimensions is also inaccurate. However, that reflects more the inadequacies of traditional Western sources that do not address PLAN platform and systems very well. In his essay, Holst specifically states, “PLAN naval architects deliberately maintained the _Song_-class’s size even with the installation of an AIP system.” While the author recognizes that trade-offs in the Type 039A/B _Yuan_ design would have to be made, there is no attempt to suggest what they might have been. The author merely expresses his faith that the PLAN naval architects would have found a way to carve out the necessary space. This unqualified assertion is naïve at best.

Submarines are, by design, compact and severely limited in internal volume. One cannot just wave a magic wand and rearrange large propulsion plant components and squeeze out the considerable volume an AIP system requires. In particular, the cryogenic oxygen tank takes up a great deal of space—and the longer the submerged endurance, the bigger the tank. If the _Song_-class had _that_ much spare volume to begin with, it would have been built smaller. There is no evidence the engineering spaces on a _Song_-class submarine have any extra unused volume. Video excerpts of the Type 039G show these submarines are just as cramped and constrained as one would expect. And since both the_ Song_ and _Yuan_ use double-hull construction, a designer can’t even go after the fuel load, as the vast majority of the fuel is carried in tanks external to the pressure hull. Since the _Yuan_ has an AIP system, it has to be bigger.

A review of Google Earth and hand-held photography indicates this is indeed the case. Google Earth imagery of both submarine classes berthed near each other shows the _Yuan_has a larger beam than the Song-class. This strongly argues that the sources that hold to the narrower beam of 7.5 meters for the Type 039G _Song_ are probably closer to the truth. Furthermore, analysis of hand-held imagery indicates that the _Yuan_ is not only longer, but also has a deeper draft than the Song-class.




Soryu-class submarine, Hakuryu during a visit to Guam in 2013. Note the bow draft markings show the submarine’s draft is about 8.3 meters. US Navy Photo

Chinese submarines use the Russian system for draft markings. This means the markings do not show the draft by direct measurement, but rather it shows the deviation from an established draft. On Chinese submarines, the longer white line in the draft markings shows the submarine’s normal surface waterline, with deviations in the draft noted in 0.2-meter increments. From hand-held, broad aspect photographs of the Type 039A/B submarine, both in the water and out, one can accurately measure the waterline length and the length overall. The often-quoted length of 72 meters for the _Yuan_ class is actually its waterline length. This value is also consistent with Google Earth measurements. The submarine’s overall length from the analysis is just over 77.2 meters, which is consistent with numerous Chinese-language websites that list the length as 77.6 meters. The same can be said of the normal surface draft that comes in at about 6.7 meters, greater than the 5.5-meter value held by many open Western source references.

Putting all of this together shows the _Yuan _is a large conventional submarine, only marginally smaller than a Soryu-class boat—on the order of 15 percent smaller. Perhaps a better comparison would be with the PLAN’s other large conventional submarine, the Russian-built Project 636 Kilo. That comparison shows the _Yuan_ comes out as being slightly bigger than a late model Kilo. The table below lists the basic physical characteristics of the four submarines discussed in this article. Project 636 Kilo and Soryu-class data come from official sources, while _Yuan _and _Song _data are largely derived from the analysis mentioned above.

Thus, in stark contrast to the essay’s conclusion, the Type 039 A/B _Yuan_ is not a small submarine at all. It is one of the _largest_ conventional combat submarines in the PLAN inventory, and is no more maneuverable in shallow water than other large conventional submarine designs, such as the Kilo or Soryu-classes. If a navy truly wishes to invest in a “coastal submarine,” or SSC, then it would look at submarines like the German Type 205 and 206, and the North Korean _Sango_, all of which come in at less than 500 tons submerged displacement.




Type 039B Yuan-class submarine during rollout at the Jiangnan Shipyard on Changxing Island. Note the long white line in the draft markings, which designates the submarine’s normal surface waterline. Also note the low-frequency passive flank array just above the keel blocks.

*Project 636 Kilo* *Type 039A/B Yuan* *Type 039GSong* *Soryu
Length Overall* *73.8 m* *77.6 m1* *74.9 m* *84.0 m
Beam* *9.9 m* *8.4 m* *7.5 m* *9.1 m
Draft* *6.6 m* *6.7 m2* *5.7 m4* *8.3 m5
Surface Displacement* *2,350 tons* *2,725 tons3* *1,727 tons* *2,947 tons
Submerged Displacement* *3,125 tons* *3,600 tons* *2,286 tons* *4,100 tons
Notes:
1) The often-quoted Type 039A/B length of 72 meters is waterline length, not length overall.
2) Type 039A/B draft is larger than the reported 5.5 meters that is nearly identical to the smaller Type 039G Song-class.
3) Yuan-class surfaced and submerged displacements come from Chinese language websites, of which there is some confusion on surface displacement. The value given on most Chinese websites (2,300 tons) would result in a reserve buoyancy of 50+ percent, which is not realistic. The estimated surface displacement in the table reflects a reserve buoyancy of 32 percent that is consistent with earlier Type 035 and 039G designs.
4) The reported 5.3-meter value for the Type 039G’s draft is suspect. Hand-held photos of this submarine in drydock suggest the draft is probably closer to 5.7 meters.
5) The draft of the Soryu-class is often listed as 8.5 meters, however, numerous photos of fore and aft draft markings show it is closer to 8.3 meters.*
*Shallow Water Environment*
Designing a submarine to operate in very shallow water has other problems beyond just maneuvering. Holst correctly points out that the acoustic environment in coastal areas is chaotic and difficult, making it challenging for an antisubmarine platform to find a _Yuan_ ensconced in such waters. But what is good for the gander is also good for the goose.

Radiated noise from shipping is far louder, and even with multiple bounces off the bottom and sea surface, a lot of the acoustic energy will still reach a submerged submarine’s sonar. With shipping, biologic, and wave noise coming in from both near and far, a _Yuan_would be hard pressed to detect, track, and identify a target of interest; particularly as surface combatants tend to be quieter than civilian merchants. In other words, it will be very difficult to find and obtain an accurate fire control solution on a desired target without using a periscope to sort out the tactical picture. Doing so, however, would increase the submarine’s chances of being detected by radar or electro-optical sensors. Therefore, a submarine hugging the bottom in shallow coastal waters will be vexed by the same problem that an ASW ship has to deal with in looking for the submarine. But what is even more curious—if Chinese designers had intended from the very beginning for the _Yuan_-class to be a shallow water boat—why was a passive low frequency flank array put on these submarines?

The H/SQG-207 is a line of individual hydrophones mounted to the hull, and is designed to provide long-range detection against noisy ships—low frequency noise suffers lower absorption losses and travels further in water. The problem is this kind of array is most effective in deeper water where interference with the bottom is limited. Such an array would be severely degraded in very shallow water, offering little, if any benefit, beyond the capabilities of the medium frequency bow array. The fact that the H/SQG-207 array is on the _Yuan_-class argues strongly that its design operating areas are in deeper waters where this passive sonar can serve as the primary sensor.

*PLAN Submarine Weaponry*
Holst’s treatment of PLAN submarine weaponry shows it perpetuates a longstanding misunderstanding when it asserts that the Type 039A/B _Yuan_ carries the C-802 ASCM. The fundamental problem with this is the C-802 is not a submarine-launched missile. In fact, the “C-802” designation is for an export surface, air, and land-based ASCM with a range of 120 kilometers, rather than the 180 kilometers stated in the essay. Of interest, there is _no evidence _the C802 was ever accepted by the PLAN. Lastly, it isn’t the same missile that the PLAN has fielded on the Type 039G, 039A/B, 091, and 093 submarines—the YJ-82. The YJ-82 is a solid-rocket propelled missile based on the YJ-8/8A ship-launched ASCM, but without the booster. The YJ-82 is launched in a buoyant capsule that is virtually identical to the U.S. submarine-launched Harpoon. Normally, the range of the YJ-8/8A is only 42 kilometers. But without the booster, the YJ-82’s range will be even less, possibly as short as 30 to 34 kilometers (16–18 nautical miles). This very short range means the launch will almost certainly be seen by its target, or an escort, as the missile will be within the radar horizon of most warships by the time it reaches ten meters in altitude. With such a short engagement range, the firing submarine’s location will be fixed quite quickly, with a counter-attack likely following shortly thereafter if a warship is nearby—flaming datums have a bad habit of attracting that sort of response. That is one of the key reasons why the PLAN submarine force is eagerly awaiting the fielding of the YJ-18, which reportedly has a maximum range of up to 220 kilometers.

With respect to the authors the Department of Defense’s, 2015 Annual Report to Congress, the cited range of 290nm (550km) for the YJ-18 in (p. 10) is undoubtedly a typographic error. It is virtually impossible for a missile that is very likely smaller than the SS-N-27B Sizzler to have a range that is almost two and a half times greater. The ranges given in the 2015 report for the YJ-8A and YJ-62 are also incorrect and reflect a reliance on inaccurate open source information.




The YJ-82 is the submarine launched version of the solid-rocket propelled YJ-8/8A. China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corporation Photo

Then there is essay’s explicit claim that the _Yuan_ was designed “primarily as an anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) platform.” While _IHS Jane’s_ applies the “G” to the designation of any vessel that can_ physically_ fire an ASCM, this doesn’t make the submarine “primarily” a cruise missile platform. The U.S. intelligence community, NATO, and Russian designation systems require a submarine to be fitted with dedicated launchers, not just the torpedo tubes, to be called a guided-missile submarine. That is why there is such a furious debate as to whether or not the new Type 093B or 095 will have a vertical launch system—perhaps as many as 16 tubes. This will clearly indicate when the cruise missile (both anti-ship and land attack) has eclipsed the torpedo as the submarine’s main weapon.

Another point of interest is that the weapons carried by the Type 039A/B _Yuan_ are identical to those on the Type 039G _Song_, to include both the current YJ-82 and the future YJ-18 ASCMs. And yet, Holst makes no mention of the_ Song_-class having the exact same weapons capability, both in terms of the number of torpedo tubes and weapons carried. The Type 039A/B _Yuan_-class will undoubtedly be the more effective ASCM platform; due to its enhanced sonar suite and the tactical flexibility provided by the AIP system, but in both instances the ASCM is a secondary weapon because of the small load out of missiles in the torpedo room, and the low salvo-size driven by torpedo tube limitations. If the Chinese continue to follow Russian tactical concepts, two of the six torpedo tubes will be loaded with YU-6 torpedoes for self-defense against an unexpected appearance by a submarine or surface ship. And while a salvo of four YJ-18 ASCMs is nothing to sneeze at, it is probably insufficient to overwhelm a modern warship’s hard and soft kill air defenses. The Mach 3 speed of the YJ-18’s sprint vehicle is impressive, and will seriously reduce a ship’s reaction time, but numbers are still needed to saturate todays modern air defense systems.

*Conclusions
In sum, I believe Holst has drawn incorrect conclusions on the Type 039A/B Yuan submarine design basis because of inaccurate technical data and inadequate analysis. The Type 039A/B Yuan is a large submarine, particularly for a non-nuclear boat, and is comparable in size to Russia’s Kilo and Japan’s Soryu-classes. The sonar suite of the Yuan is tailored more for deep water where it can use the low frequency flank array to make long-range detections against noisy ships. The lack of a vertical launch system means the Yuan, and Song-class, are limited by the number of torpedo tubes that can be allocated to ASCMs; making it very hard to saturate a ship’s air defenses with only four, or at most five, missile salvos. And given the current short-ranged YJ-82 ASCM, a Type 039A/B Yuan-class submarine is better off attempting to close inside 15 kilometers and engaging the target with YU-6 torpedoes. But even after the introduction of the YJ-18, the restrictive factors of the torpedo room’s capacity and the small number of torpedo tubes remains. The PLAN appears to appreciate this constraint, as the discussion of future nuclear submarine designs having as many as 16 vertical launch tubes suggests.

The design aspects of the Type 039A/B Yuan-class submarine point toward deep-water operating areas in the near seas, to include the approaches to Taiwan, where their improved sonar and AIP capabilities will aid the submarine in detecting, tracking, and engaging targets of interest. And while a Type 039A/B Yuan could soon be loaded with a more effective, long-range ASCM, the submarine’s design limitations will continue to rely heavily on the torpedo.
@ arsalan @wanglaokan any learned input will be appreciated 
Thx*


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## khanasifm

Agosta90b has 4 Scorpene sub has 6 21 inch torpedo tubes u212 has 6 the only Israeli dolphins has 10 tubes with 6 21 inches and rest larger size tubes

If total capacity is 16 ascm or torpedos combination then salvo of 4/5 is max at one time I guess naval officers can explain the logic I guess increaring tubes will also means less carrying capability when not loaded unless size is increased 

Type39 in present form has 6 21 inch tubes


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## khanasifm

https://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/tubes/chap1.htm


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## khanasifm

Some sub has both stern and bow (both sides) tubes but most newer sub has bow only tubes also salvo capability via auto loading like tanks exists in some subs


http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/songclassubmarine/

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo/


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## Penguin

Arsalan said:


> 90 DB is VERY impressive. I hope it is at max speed or it is the max level the noise goes to. Even if it is normal speed noise level i think it is pretty decent.
> 
> @Penguin would you agree?


*"Very quiet" Submarine*
https://fas.org/spp/eprint/snf03221.htm
Kilo equivalent


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## 帅的一匹

TYPE 039C

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## Arsalan

Penguin said:


> *"Very quiet" Submarine*
> https://fas.org/spp/eprint/snf03221.htm


yup, that is what i though. Have read that article already, it gave nice profile/signature of some nuclear submarines.

It will be very interesting to know more about modern conventional subs like U214, Soryu, Scorpean etc. That will give a better idea.

90dB however is very low noise. (considering it is for a SUBMARINE)





Now although this might sound loud but for a comparison, a normal conversation is 80Db


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## Penguin

Penguin said:


> *"Very quiet" Submarine*
> https://fas.org/spp/eprint/snf03221.htm
> Kilo equivalent



ESTABLISHING A BASELINE:

SL component of the spectrum [relative to 1 Pa at 1 m] 5-200 Hz &
Spectral strength of SL in a frequency band (1Hz) [relative to 1 Pa at 1m] 1kHz
"Noisy" Submarine: 140 & 120
"Quiet" Submarine: 120 & 100
"Very quiet" Submarine: 100 & 80
https://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm#table1

941 (Typhoon SSBN) 125 & 105
667 (Delta IV SSBN) 120 & 100
971 (Akula SSN) 110 & 90
https://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm#table2

"SL for the 941 (Typhoon) and the 667 BDRM (Delta IV) missile submarines are 8-13 dB higher than the diesel-electric 877 (Kilo) submarine which was developed at the same time.
...
In the West it is believed that these [971 Akula] submarines significantly surpass the covertness not only of previous generation Russian SSNs, but also modern American SSNs."
https://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm

Therefor: 877 (Kilo) 112 93 = only marginally more noisy than 971 (Akula)

Value of 112 is validated by point 6 in *Figure A1.2*.
Note this is close to value for German Type 209 (dashed lines numbered 4).




https://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm

Depending on the specific requirements ordered by different customers, the size of the submarines increased from the original 1000t displacement and in some cases by as much as 50%. The additional size and space were needed to accommodate increases in range, crew living quarters, more electronic equipment and in some instances increased diving depth. The net result has been the emergence of the "Type 209 family" comprising very varied submarines as family members.
One of the constant aims in the continued development of the submarine was the reduction of self-noise. Thanks to the large number of orders that followed each other in an almost annual sequence, every contract profited from the most recent results of research and technology, improvements tested during sea trials which could then be incorporated into the next project. This achieved surprisingly low radiated noise levels to be achieved both during snorkelling and in submerged cruising.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/type-209.htm

There are currently three air independent propulsion systems being actively integrated into submarines--the Stirling engine, built in Sweden, a fuel cell system built in Germany and a closed-cycle diesel system developed in both Germany and Italy.
The Sterling engine is 15 to 25 decibels quieter than a standard diesel-electric and its generators are in parallel with the batteries to simplify power control. The manufacturer, Kockrums, states that submerged endurance has increased to two weeks, 24 and is offering the engine on the open market as a retrofit into existing submarines or to be integrated into new models.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a281144.pdf
NB: Swedish sourced, Japanese and Chinese AIP subs use Sterling engines.
NB: Closed cycle diesel systems would likely be equal or better than standard diesel-electric systems and fuel cell systems would probably be even more quite than Sterling engines.

CHINESE SUBMARINES:

The Chinese Type 033 incorporated some improvements over the original Romeo, including noise reduction of 20 dB. ES5B: This is the last type of Chinese Romeo class submarine; with noise reduction of 20 dB to 140 dB in comparison to the 160 dB of the original Soviet Project 633 submarines acquired by China.
https://www.revolvy.com/topic/Romeo-class submarine&item_type=topic

Type 033: High noise level, little in ASW capability. The Romeo class was designed to conduct anti-surface ship operations using torpedoes and to execute mine-laying assignments off hostile ports. It has virtually no anti-submarine capability, due to high noise levels and inadequate sensor fit. The snort system reportedly exhibits very high noise levels, due to the lack of effective sound insulation on the diesels.
https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=1791

Type 35 is essentially a single screw version of Type 033. Type 035G = ES5E:
"further improvements, especially in terms of noise reduction, weapons, sensors and crew living standards."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_035_submarine

Type 039
"Problems with noise levels and underwater performance led to revisions in the design and only a single boat was ever built to the original specification.
...
Improvements led to the specification for the _Type 039G_, which became the bulk of production
...
The most obvious visual difference between the two types is the conning tower. The _Type 039_'s conning tower is stepped, rising aft. In an effort to shrink the submarine's acoustic signature, the _Type 039G_'s conning tower was given a more conventional shape without any step."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039_submarine

The Type 039A inherits the tail design of the Type 039 (NATO codename: Song class) with four diving planes and a single large shaft. A pair of foreplanes are positioned in the middle of the sail. The submarine is equipped with indigenously developed cabin-raft (shock absorbers) system that helped to reduce noise level by over 35 dB. Additionally, the submarine is covered with rubber anti-sonar protection tiles to reduce the risk of detection. A new improved "C" variant was also launched.
The Yuan class SSK is integrated with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction, asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller, the 039A is expected to be as quiet as other modern diesel-electric submarines, which are very difficult to track.
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Type_039A_submarine#/Hull
Question is, reduced noise level relative to what?

033/ES5B= 140dB
035/ES5E= improvements in noise reduction relative to 033
039 = noise problems, leading to redevelopment into 039G > assume 039 similar dB as 035
039A has 35 db less than (most likely) the preceeding sub = 039G
IF 039A is 90 dB THEN preceeding sub (039G) is 125 dB.

Implication Chinese submarines' noise levels:

Type 033 ES5B (PRC): 140 dB 

Type 035 (PRC): ? (est. 130 dB)

Type 039 (PRC): ? (est 130 dB)

Type 039G (PRC: 125 dB

Type 039A: 90 dB
As compared to:

Project 633 Romeo (CCCP): 160 dB
Project 877 Kilo (CCCP): 93 dB ( ~ newest Type 209. with 209PN=214)


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## Penguin

Chinese diesel-electric and nuclear submarine force structure improvements over the past two
decades are striking. Figure 13 conveys a comparative Office of Naval Intelligence estimate
from 2009—and both Russian and Chinese designs have progressed since then. While China has
evidently not yet achieved acoustic parity on the nuclear front, the Shang and Jin vessels
represent a significant improvement over previous nuclear submarines. Jerry Hendrix estimates
that the improved Shang (not reflected in figure 1) is roughly analogous to the improved Los
Angeles or Akula II SSNs with respect to acoustic performance.94 It is possible that the more
recent Jin vessels have also benefited from derivative or related acoustic performance
improvements. Should China proceed as anticipated with development of a next-generation
type-095 SSN and/or type-096 SSGN, it will probably continue down the acoustic learning curve.
On the diesel-electric front the more recent Kilo and Yuan vessels appear generally comparable 
to the Russian Lada (St. Petersburg)-class SSK, while the older Romeo, Kilo, and Ming SSKs exit
the active inventory. Acoustically, at 105-110 decibels the modern 636 Kilo has reportedly
achieved general equivalence with that of the improved Los Angeles SSNs. (By comparison, the
Virginia operates at about 95 decibels and ocean background at 90.95) Said differently, the
improved Shangs and Kilos in the Chinese inventory have achieved acoustic parity with mid-
1980s American SSN technology, while Russia’s new Yasen has an acoustic signature closer to
the current-generation American SSN fleet




98: Office of Naval Intelligence (2009) graphic, excerpted from O’Rourke, China Naval Modernization, pp. 14-15.
Acoustic propagation discussed at https://manglermuldoon.blogspot.com/2015/02/sea-denial-analysis-of-csbasproposal.
html
https://cgsr.llnl.gov/content/assets/docs/Ellis_Game_On.pdf


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## ziaulislam

Penguin said:


> Chinese diesel-electric and nuclear submarine force structure improvements over the past two
> decades are striking. Figure 13 conveys a comparative Office of Naval Intelligence estimate
> from 2009—and both Russian and Chinese designs have progressed since then. While China has
> evidently not yet achieved acoustic parity on the nuclear front, the Shang and Jin vessels
> represent a significant improvement over previous nuclear submarines. Jerry Hendrix estimates
> that the improved Shang (not reflected in figure 1) is roughly analogous to the improved Los
> Angeles or Akula II SSNs with respect to acoustic performance.94 It is possible that the more
> recent Jin vessels have also benefited from derivative or related acoustic performance
> improvements. Should China proceed as anticipated with development of a next-generation
> type-095 SSN and/or type-096 SSGN, it will probably continue down the acoustic learning curve.
> On the diesel-electric front the more recent Kilo and Yuan vessels appear generally comparable
> to the Russian Lada (St. Petersburg)-class SSK, while the older Romeo, Kilo, and Ming SSKs exit
> the active inventory. Acoustically, at 105-110 decibels the modern 636 Kilo has reportedly
> achieved general equivalence with that of the improved Los Angeles SSNs. (By comparison, the
> Virginia operates at about 95 decibels and ocean background at 90.95) Said differently, the
> improved Shangs and Kilos in the Chinese inventory have achieved acoustic parity with mid-
> 1980s American SSN technology, while Russia’s new Yasen has an acoustic signature closer to
> the current-generation American SSN fleet
> View attachment 404384
> 
> 98: Office of Naval Intelligence (2009) graphic, excerpted from O’Rourke, China Naval Modernization, pp. 14-15.
> Acoustic propagation discussed at https://manglermuldoon.blogspot.com/2015/02/sea-denial-analysis-of-csbasproposal.
> html
> https://cgsr.llnl.gov/content/assets/docs/Ellis_Game_On.pdf


on every front china has progressed rapidly in last 2 decades and especially in last decade, this is not surprisingly, given access to russian tech in 90s and highest R&D spending probably second only to US and many times more than rivals else where.
hence, one of the reasons why Pakistan has been leaning towards Chinese subs

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## Penguin

ziaulislam said:


> on every front china has progressed rapidly in last 2 decades and especially in last decade, this is not surprisingly, given access to russian tech in 90s and highest R&D spending probably second only to US and many times more than rivals else where.
> hence, one of the reasons why Pakistan has been leaning towards Chinese subs


The discussion was not whether this was surprising. The discussion was to come to some idea of (progress on) noise levels. In which 90 dB is still _assumed_ [there is no evidence] and then _projected _backward [via IF ... THEN ... ] across preceeding classes, in order to connect with known data for Romea Type 33.


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## Penguin



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## Torbat Khan

good to know that China is becoming in tech with Us

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## Hassan Guy

Still a bad deal because of the timeframe. A sub launched in 2000's, Pakistan still managed to aquire them 2 decades later. These subs should have already been inducted with construction ongoing. 

The only reason we have a larger AIP fleet is because of indias delays not our success.

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## Incog_nito

I think only 2 should be manufactured in China, all rest 6 should be made in Pakistan.

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## The Accountant

Hassan Guy said:


> Still a bad deal because of the timeframe. A sub launched in 2000's, Pakistan still managed to aquire them 2 decades later. These subs should have already been inducted with construction ongoing.
> 
> The only reason we have a larger AIP fleet is because of indias delays not our success.


If sub was launched in 2000 and we are procuring it now it does not means we are going to induct same sub systems ...

The way i see it the most probable reason of delay is customization specially in light of the fact that they will be babur 3 equiped at minimum

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## niaz

What Pakistan needs is a submarine in the 1,700 to 2,000 tons class. The sub needs to be able to dive to depths in excess of 350 meters, a submerged speed of about 20 knots, ability to remain submerged for more than 2 weeks without snorkelling and a range of about 6000 miles or more. It should also be exceptionally quiet and able to carry about a dozen anti-ship missiles & torpedoes.

As long as the Chinese subs meet these criteria, we have no cause to grumble. 

Submarines endurance at sea is also limited by the storage space for the fuel and for the food and drinking water for the crew. Does Pak Navy have the assets to supply about 12 subs with the essentials on the high seas, say 3,000 miles away from base?

Because without this ability, PN would not be able to ambush IN vessels on the East coast of India.

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## khanasifm

I did not knew we have so many naval strategists and Mariane/sub engineering folks as members on this forum who brings decades of industry /warfare experience, p.n. should start listening otherwise they will loose

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## The Accountant

I dont think idea is to ambush east coast assets but to Anti access and area denial so as to ensure much bigger indian force do not attempt for naval blockade without significant losses ...

Furthermore i guess out of total only few submarines will be given strategic role where they had to move towards east ... but even in that case the role will be strategic attack from the east and not anti ship role ... that is my analysis as you cannot go offensive far from your base towards several time bigger and advance force 
.. PN can only be agressive in near Pakistani EEZ so that it can get support from air and other assets ...

What do you think ?


niaz said:


> What Pakistan needs is a submarine in the 1,700 to 2,000 tons class. The sub needs to be able to dive to depths in excess of 350 meters, a submerged speed of about 20 knots, ability to remain submerged for more than 2 weeks without snorkelling and a range of about 6000 miles or more. It should also be exceptionally quiet and able to carry about a dozen anti-ship missiles & torpedoes.
> 
> As long as the Chinese subs meet these criteria, we have no cause to grumble.
> 
> Submarines endurance at sea is also limited by the storage space for the fuel and for the food and drinking water for the crew. Does Pak Navy have the assets to supply about 12 subs with the essentials on the high seas, say 3,000 miles away from base?
> 
> Because without this ability, PN would not be able to ambush IN vessels on the East coast of India.


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## niaz

Without doubt submarine is a multi-role role platform. It can be also used for surveillance and even attacking land targets with cruise missiles. IMO its defensive role is only for protecting naval flotillas and merchant shipping convoys, not the offshore economic zone. OPV’s are especially designed to patrol economic zone. These can be supplemented by Harpoon firing PC-3’s.

However, submarine is essentially an offensive weapon, it is a hunter. Submarine lies hidden in wait, attacks the surface target and hides in the deep again. That is why modern SSK is also called a hunter killer submarine. Modern SSK can also be used to hunt down and kill other submarines.

An analogy; an MBT is primarily as offensive asset, meant to be used as a battering ram for punching hole in enemy’s defences and for fighting other tanks. However a tank can also be employed as mobile artillery supporting the infantry but then one is underutilising it.

Similarly using a hunter killer SSK as a defensive /denial weapon means one is not exploiting its full potential.

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## ziaulislam

Hassan Guy said:


> Still a bad deal because of the timeframe. A sub launched in 2000's, Pakistan still managed to aquire them 2 decades later. These subs should have already been inducted with construction ongoing.
> 
> The only reason we have a larger AIP fleet is because of indias delays not our success.


time frame is very good, question is whtehr we will keep this time frame or will there be delays
e.g look at indian scorpian deal


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## Vijyes Yechury

niaz said:


> What Pakistan needs is a submarine in the 1,700 to 2,000 tons class. The sub needs to be able to dive to depths in excess of 350 meters, a submerged speed of about 20 knots, ability to remain submerged for more than 2 weeks without snorkelling and a range of about 6000 miles or more. It should also be exceptionally quiet and able to carry about a dozen anti-ship missiles & torpedoes.
> 
> As long as the Chinese subs meet these criteria, we have no cause to grumble.
> 
> Submarines endurance at sea is also limited by the storage space for the fuel and for the food and drinking water for the crew. Does Pak Navy have the assets to supply about 12 subs with the essentials on the high seas, say 3,000 miles away from base?
> 
> Because without this ability, PN would not be able to ambush IN vessels on the East coast of India.





The Accountant said:


> I dont think idea is to ambush east coast assets but to Anti access and area denial so as to ensure much bigger indian force do not attempt for naval blockade without significant losses ...
> 
> Furthermore i guess out of total only few submarines will be given strategic role where they had to move towards east ... but even in that case the role will be strategic attack from the east and not anti ship role ... that is my analysis as you cannot go offensive far from your base towards several time bigger and advance force
> .. PN can only be agressive in near Pakistani EEZ so that it can get support from air and other assets ...
> 
> What do you think ?



Anti submarine warfare is dependent on mostly helicopter and aerial surveillance like P8 orions. They drop a submersible at random locations which has sonar capabilities of radius 30-40km and a diameter of 60-80km. If pakistan coast is 640km long, India needs mere 8-11 helicopter to create a form of perimeter to track any submarine coming and going out of Pakistan. About 4 corvette/destroyers have the ability to carry 3 chopper each and blockade pakistan submarines for good.

SSK are silent and can nide against passive detection but not active radar ones like sonar. The ships and submarine refrain from using sonar as the opponent will be able to get the signal too. For example, if a sonar radius is 40km, the enemy can detect it from 80km and as a result find out about the sonar emitting vessel much earlier and then kill it easily. But, in case of chopper, it is impossible to do so as chopper flies in the air and suddenly drops a submersible sonar. The enemy submarine is helpless against chopper


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## The Accountant

And how you plan to bring helicopters to Pakistani coast without putting the helicopters and vessels having them in great danger ?

Helicopters will be easy target for fightwr planes and SAM system near coast whereas frigates will be easily taken over by 11 submarines waiting for pray in the coastal water ... Sorry brother attacking on the coast of Pakistan is not as easy as it was in 1971 when our assets were divided and were far less



Vijyes Yechury said:


> Anti submarine warfare is dependent on mostly helicopter and aerial surveillance like P8 orions. They drop a submersible at random locations which has sonar capabilities of radius 30-40km and a diameter of 60-80km. If pakistan coast is 640km long, India needs mere 8-11 helicopter to create a form of perimeter to track any submarine coming and going out of Pakistan. About 4 corvette/destroyers have the ability to carry 3 chopper each and blockade pakistan submarines for good.
> 
> SSK are silent and can nide against passive detection but not active radar ones like sonar. The ships and submarine refrain from using sonar as the opponent will be able to get the signal too. For example, if a sonar radius is 40km, the enemy can detect it from 80km and as a result find out about the sonar emitting vessel much earlier and then kill it easily. But, in case of chopper, it is impossible to do so as chopper flies in the air and suddenly drops a submersible sonar. The enemy submarine is helpless against chopper

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

US will send aircraft carrier to protect us like in 70's we don't need navy


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## Hassan Guy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> US will send aircraft carrier to protect us like in 70's we don't need navy


i don't think it worked tho...

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## Khafee

Hassan Guy said:


> i don't think it worked tho...




On a serious note: I think he was being sarcastic.

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## Khafee

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Anti submarine warfare is dependent on mostly helicopter and aerial surveillance like P8 orions. *They drop a submersible at random locations* *which has sonar capabilities *of radius 30-40km and a diameter of 60-80km. If pakistan coast is 640km long, India needs mere 8-11 helicopter to create a form of perimeter to track any submarine coming and going out of Pakistan. About 4 corvette/destroyers have the ability to carry 3 chopper each and blockade pakistan submarines for good.
> 
> SSK are silent and can nide against passive detection but not active radar ones like sonar. The ships and submarine refrain from using sonar as the opponent will be able to get the signal too. For example, if a sonar radius is 40km, the enemy can detect it from 80km and as a result find out about the sonar emitting vessel much earlier and then kill it easily. But, in case of chopper, it is impossible to do so as chopper flies in the air *and suddenly drops a submersible sonar. *The enemy submarine is helpless against chopper



1) In the military, nothing happens "randomly" or "suddenly"

2) 4 Destroyers (forget corvettes), with 8~11 choppers blockading PN Subs, is a very unrealistic scenario. Please study the following thread, and pay special attention to Respectable ex-IN member @Joe Shearer
*https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/could-india-block-pakistani-ports-in-case-of-a-war.526917/*

3) The term is "*Dipping Sonar*", and this is how it works:

The long-range, active scanning sonar detects and maintains contact with underwater targets through a transducer lowered into the water from a hovering helicopter. The system provides target classification clues and can accurately determine opening or closing rates of moving targets. Active echo-ranging determines the target's range and bearing.

High-speed reeling allows a dip, cycled to maximum depth to be completed within 3.5 minutes, (can be more or less, is dependent on the DS being used), while the azimuth and range indicator and receiver provide a video display for the operator.

The system's Sonar Data Computer (SDC) uses digital processor techniques. This enhances detection capabilities in shallow water and reverberation-limited conditions while essentially eliminating false alarms from the video display. The higher energy transmitted with the longer pulse SDC mode, combined with the narrow band analysis, substantially improves the figure of merit in non-reverberant conditions more typical of deep water operation as well.

This is what a heli-borne DS system, looks like:






The specs of AN/AQS13F as an e.g.





The latest version, deployed by USN is the AN/AQS-22, and built by Raytheon costs approx US$3m/unit.

The AQS-22 is designed to detect and classify hostile submarines at greater ranges than currently deployed dipping sonar systems, and can reach depths near 2,500 feet while deployed from the helicopter on a hardened coaxial cable tether.

Raytheon teams on the AQS-22 with Thales Underwater Systems in Brest and Sophia, France. Thales manufactures the system’s hydrophone stave arms, as well as the active transducer system.

The sonar system enables the MH-60R to detect, track, pinpoint, and classify potentially hostile submarines. It reels the sonar transducer down into the water from the hovering helicopter and can operate the sonar at a wide variety of depths to find submarines hiding under temperature inversions in the water.

The sonar system has seven weapon-replaceable assemblies: the acoustic processor equipment, sonar transmitter/receiver, reeling machine interface unit, reeling machine control unit, reeling machine, reel and cable, and the transducer assembly.

The hydrophone staves use beam forming and signal processing to detect the presence of submarines and to determine the submarine’s location, range, and bearing.

Key components of the AQS-22’s signal-processing system are field programmable gate arrays, as well as single-board processors

The AN/AQS-22 is capable of multi-frequency operation that enables the AN/AQS-22 to adapt its performance to varying environmental conditions, and permits a long detection range over a wide area.

Power to the AN/AQS-22 ALFS is supplied by the helicopter, eliminating the need for in-unit sonar batteries.

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## Khafee

Vijyes Yechury said:


> That joe shearer is a coward, a wasteful person selected into navy (if it is true) due to mentally unsound policies of congress.
> 
> Who thinks of UN, rules etc in war? War means war where the rule is kill or get killed. War happens because of disagreement on rules! What is the point in saying that rules are to be followed in war? Who is that retard who made the rules?
> 
> Anyways, sorry for the rant, but it is perfectly possible to block Pakistan. All we have to do is wait for Indian oil rigs to run out and instead start coal liquefaction projects. We have over 300 billion tons of coal and 200 billion tons are extractable. We can have our own diesel, kerosene (jet fuel) with it (petrol is a minor product from coal liquefaction). So, bombay rig will not be a problem by 2030-35 as it will stop functioning.
> 
> India already has many ships and producing more ships with great pace which will only increase over time. With technology to make medium range helicopter, it will be easier to mass manufacture Naval utility helicopters too.


On your logic, and the dismissal of such a great mind, I can only offer you my condolences.

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## khanasifm

By the time 8th sub would be delivered in 2028 the two Agosta 70 will be ready for retirement so at most 8 plus 3 agosta 90b will make the fleet plus any other smaller ~200 ton version for commando ops

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## 帅的一匹

khanasifm said:


> By the time 8th sub would be delivered in 2028 the two Agosta 70 will be ready for retirement so at most 8 plus 3 agosta 90b will make the fleet plus any other smaller ~200 ton version for commando ops


What if PN can produce subs by himself under TOT?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

wanglaokan said:


> What if PN can produce subs by himself under TOT?


4 will be built in China.. and 4 in Pakistan under ToT.


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## 帅的一匹

THe new design of S100 mono-shell AIP sub







DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 4 will be built in China.. and 4 in Pakistan under ToT.


Means you can build as many as subs to deal with Indian threat as long as your economy can afford, at comparatively low cost.

In China there is an old saying: its better to transfer your friend the fishing skills instead of just giving them fish.

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## Vijyes Yechury

wanglaokan said:


> THe new design of S100 mono-shell AIP sub
> View attachment 438260
> 
> 
> 
> Means you can build as many as subs to deal with Indian threat as long as your economy can afford, at comparatively low cost.
> 
> In China there is an old saying: its better to transfer your friend the fishing skills instead of just giving them fish.



If China gives such technology to pakistan, then India too can find random nations to give arbitrary technology. Good luck with suicidal path. Everyone dies.

Next, the mini submarine is poor technology. I am wondering why Pakistan didn't get submarines from Turkey.


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## BetterPakistan

Vijyes Yechury said:


> If China gives such technology to pakistan, then India too can find random nations to give arbitrary technology. Good luck with suicidal path. Everyone dies.
> 
> Next, the mini submarine is poor technology. I am wondering why Pakistan didn't get submarines from Turkey.



 

We are not buying those submarines because we want to showcase them. Its all done to keep your navy in their limit and to maintain balance of power in Arabian Sea.

Remember one thing, our military don't go for anything first we just follow you to maintain balance of power.

Mini Submarines are necessary for mines laying & detection. This time Pak Navy won't go for X-Craft submarines weighing 110 tones which we previously have but our navy will go for 500-800 tons submarines to replace X-Craft so the newer one's will be a good addition.


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## 帅的一匹

China will help Pakistan to build long wave radio station, as a supporting facility for the new subs under construction.

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## Sh@msu

2022 is still at distance,what is plan for now?


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## Spy Master

Vijyes Yechury said:


> If China gives such technology to pakistan, then India too can find random nations to give arbitrary technology. Good luck with suicidal path. Everyone dies.
> 
> Next, the mini submarine is poor technology. I am wondering why Pakistan didn't get submarines from Turkey.


Lol, you itself borrowed technology from Russia and talking about transferring to other nations...Lol man, why you Indians are so big mouth

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## Hassan Guy

Sh@msu said:


> 2022 is still at distance,what is plan for now?


chill i guess



I think Agosta subs are being upgraded

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## Imran Khan

Sh@msu said:


> 2022 is still at distance,what is plan for now?


5 agostas doing well till then

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## Sh@msu

Vijyes Yechury said:


> If China gives such technology to pakistan, then India too can find random nations to give arbitrary technology. Good luck with suicidal path. Everyone dies.
> 
> Next, the mini submarine is poor technology. I am wondering why Pakistan didn't get submarines from Turkey.


I think that might be a very very bad idea to "find random nations to give arbitrary technology."
Did you forget we share some very cute border with you?Not to mention Nepal.China will too find this places very attractive to "give arbitrary technology" 
Can India really take that if China armrs it's border state just because it wanted China to stop giving tech to Pak which is already a nuclear armed state?
Not much to gain,but huge to loose for you.Think before playing that "border border" game  

Just to be clear,I am very much in favor of India giving tech to random nations.Because then may be China won't mind sharing some of it's latest hot toys with us


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## Pathan khan

I think China will deliver the 4 Hangor Class Submarines to Pakistan Navy start from 1 each per year 2019-22


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## Vijyes Yechury

Sh@msu said:


> I think that might be a very very bad idea to "find random nations to give arbitrary technology."
> Did you forget we share some very cute border with you?Not to mention Nepal.China will too find this places very attractive to "give arbitrary technology"
> Can India really take that if China armrs it's border state just because it wanted China to stop giving tech to Pak which is already a nuclear armed state?
> Not much to gain,but huge to loose for you.Think before playing that "border border" game
> 
> Just to be clear,I am very much in favor of India giving tech to random nations.Because then may be China won't mind sharing some of it's latest hot toys with us


If China gives technology, then China will be considered as aggressor nation. Being nuclear armed is not the game changer. Nuclear technology is 1940s technology. Also, it is not all powerful. Submarine technology is critical and involves stealth and other aspects. 

Obviously for you it is acceptable that China risks itself for Pakistan. But that calls for greater question - will chinacbe ready to face india in case of india pakistan war? Moreover, India can easily take out pakistan even before it gets ToT. 

China can give technology but at its own peril. We have seen that countries prefer to give arms instead of technology as aids. So, you may be expecting too much. 



Spy Master said:


> Lol, you itself borrowed technology from Russia and talking about transferring to other nations...Lol man, why you Indians are so big mouth



India did not borrow any critical defence technology from Russia. Russia did not give seekers for brahmos or nuclear submarine reactor/propulsion, SAM technology etc. Russia gave SU30 technology (except engine).


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## Cybernetics

Sh@msu said:


> I think that might be a very very bad idea to "find random nations to give arbitrary technology."
> Did you forget we share some very cute border with you?Not to mention Nepal.China will too find this places very attractive to "give arbitrary technology"
> Can India really take that if China armrs it's border state just because it wanted China to stop giving tech to Pak which is already a nuclear armed state?
> Not much to gain,but huge to loose for you.Think before playing that "border border" game
> 
> Just to be clear,I am very much in favor of India giving tech to random nations.Because then may be China won't mind sharing some of it's latest hot toys with us


I think China is trying to avoid an military buildup with India or trying to not edge it into conflict too much. It wants to focus more of its resources on OBOR and potentially link up India in the trade network once the situation in Myanmar calms down. Meaning India building tunnels and highways in the North East makes long term integration easier. On the other hand if India makes military moves for China to react to like in Donglang, then it is likely China will employ asymmetric strategies to counter it. One such move could be like as you mentioned, providing Bangladesh and Pakistan with progressively more advanced military hardware and more military industrial cooperation. In addition directing more investment to countries on India's periphery. Eventually forcing India's hand to integrate into the trade network or it could choose to be isolated. The more aggressive India becomes to counter China in the region the stronger it's neighbours will become.

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## TheDarkKnight

Vijyes Yechury said:


> If China gives such technology to pakistan, then India too can find random nations to give arbitrary technology. Good luck with suicidal path. Everyone dies.
> 
> Next, the mini submarine is poor technology. I am wondering why Pakistan didn't get submarines from Turkey.


Which indigenous technology that India owns and can provide, and also to *whom*? If Tejas is the tech, then by all means offer it - I can assure you even if you *give *money to countries to get Tejas for free, they wont - even your own airforce would not accept it sadly.

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## Spy Master

Vijyes Yechury said:


> If China gives technology, then China will be considered as aggressor nation. Being nuclear armed is not the game changer. Nuclear technology is 1940s technology. Also, it is not all powerful. Submarine technology is critical and involves stealth and other aspects.
> 
> Obviously for you it is acceptable that China risks itself for Pakistan. But that calls for greater question - will chinacbe ready to face india in case of india pakistan war? Moreover, India can easily take out pakistan even before it gets ToT.
> 
> China can give technology but at its own peril. We have seen that countries prefer to give arms instead of technology as aids. So, you may be expecting too much.
> 
> 
> 
> India did not borrow any critical defence technology from Russia. Russia did not give seekers for brahmos or nuclear submarine reactor/propulsion, SAM technology etc. Russia gave SU30 technology (except engine).


Man stop bulssh!!ting here...Starting from Tejas every project of yours had external help and imported critical components...all of your submarine technology is based on Russian designs!

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## Adios Amigo

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Obviously for you it is acceptable that China risks itself for Pakistan. But that calls for greater question - will chinacbe ready to face india in case of india pakistan war? *Moreover, India can easily take out pakistan even before it gets ToT. *
> .


 This shows your level of understanding.... Keep going and enlighten us with your "du takkay ki analysis"!

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## Sh@msu

Vijyes Yechury said:


> If China gives technology, then China will be *considered as aggressor nation*. Being *nuclear armed is not the game changer.* Nuclear technology is 1940s technology. Also, it is *not all powerful*. Submarine technology is critical and involves stealth and other aspects.
> 
> Obviously for you it is acceptable that China risks itself for Pakistan. But that calls for greater question - will chinacbe ready to face india in case of india pakistan war? Moreover, India *can easily take out pakistan even before it gets ToT*.
> 
> China can give technology but at its own peril. We have seen that countries prefer to give arms instead of technology as aids. So, you may be expecting too much.

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## Vijyes Yechury

Spy Master said:


> Man stop bulssh!!ting here...Starting from Tejas every project of yours had external help and imported critical components...all of your submarine technology is based on Russian designs!





TheDarkKnight said:


> Which indigenous technology that India owns and can provide, and also to *whom*? If Tejas is the tech, then by all means offer it - I can assure you even if you *give *money to countries to get Tejas for free, they wont - even your own airforce would not accept it sadly.



Good luck with your laughs. I don't seem to understand why you have some weird imagination that India can't build anything on its own when it has built many things on its own. Tejas is something countries won't buy? Why? Because you don't like it? What evidence do you have that Indian submarine is Russian designed? India did take inspiration from various submarines but at the end of the day, the miniature reactors, propulsion etc were Indian designed. The exterior and other things may have been simply copied.

Anyways, good luck trying to get ToT from China, USA, France, UK, Russia etc. I haven't seen any of them ahnding over technology to anyone just like that. They will sell the arms but not the way to make them. Only the older generation technology which has become obsolete will be given.



Adios Amigo said:


> This shows your level of understanding.... Keep going and enlighten us with your "du takkay ki analysis"!



Just insisting that nuclear weapons will give maximum deterrence is plain stupid. Do you have evidence or test data to show the magnitude of destruction by nukes? Good luck with such bullshit.



Sh@msu said:


>


Ask for ToT from any nation - USA, UK, France, China, Russia etc and then come back. Just assuming that a nation is foolish to permanently transfer technology instead of supplying arms as aids is utterly foolish. China can help Pakistan with arms supply, but ToT is something you are over expecting. What is the benefit for China by giving ToT to Pakistan instead of manufacturing arms in China and then supplying the arms to Pakistan?

In case such ToTs are done, then it will be regarded as an act of aggression and any war with Pakistan will automatically involve China. Good luck suggesting this to Chinese.


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## Sh@msu

Vijyes Yechury said:


> *Ask for ToT from any nation *- USA, UK, France, China, Russia etc and then come back. Just assuming that a nation is foolish to permanently transfer technology instead of supplying arms as aids is utterly foolish. China can help Pakistan with arms supply, but ToT is something you are over expecting. *What is the benefit for China by giving ToT to Pakistan* instead of manufacturing arms in China and then supplying the arms to Pakistan?
> 
> *In case such ToTs are done, then it will be regarded as an act of aggression *and any war with Pakistan will automatically involve China.* Good luck suggesting this to Chinese*.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Vijyes Yechury said:


> If China gives technology, then China will be considered as aggressor nation. Being nuclear armed is not the game changer. Nuclear technology is 1940s technology. Also, it is not all powerful. Submarine technology is critical and involves stealth and other aspects.
> 
> Obviously for you it is acceptable that China risks itself for Pakistan. But that calls for greater question - will chinacbe ready to face india in case of india pakistan war? Moreover, India can easily take out pakistan even before it gets ToT.
> 
> China can give technology but at its own peril. We have seen that countries prefer to give arms instead of technology as aids. So, you may be expecting too much.
> 
> 
> 
> India did not borrow any critical defence technology from Russia. Russia did not give seekers for brahmos or nuclear submarine reactor/propulsion, SAM technology etc. Russia gave SU30 technology (except engine).




Im sure you can “take over Pakistan”... 

But the question is.. if its such a walk in the park... why are indians lookin like cuckholds while Pak keeps banging mother india?

Think fukin again and before you talk nonsense.



Sh@msu said:


>


He’s the typical indian frog fed by arseholes like arnoob chutuswami..

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## Cookie Monster

_"*If one 098* can carry *12 submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) *carrying *3 independently targetable warheads each*, the *two submarines under construction* have effective *second-strike capabilities of launching 108 nuclear warheads*"_

The math isn't adding up. If each submarine carries 12 SLBMs(MIRV) with 3 warheads each then each submarine has 36 warheads it can launch...two of these submarines would make it 72 warheads not 108. For 108 warheads, 3 of these submarines are required.

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## Sh@msu

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> He’s the typical indian frog fed by arseholes like arnoob chutuswami..


I know.these third eye peoples are so naive and cute

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## Clutch

Vijyes Yechury said:


> If China gives technology, then China will be considered as aggressor nation. Being nuclear armed is not the game changer. Nuclear technology is 1940s technology. Also, it is not all powerful. Submarine technology is critical and involves stealth and other aspects.
> 
> Obviously for you it is acceptable that China risks itself for Pakistan. But that calls for greater question - will chinacbe ready to face india in case of india pakistan war? Moreover, India can easily take out pakistan even before it gets ToT.
> 
> China can give technology but at its own peril. We have seen that countries prefer to give arms instead of technology as aids. So, you may be expecting too much.
> 
> 
> 
> India did not borrow any critical defence technology from Russia. Russia did not give seekers for brahmos or nuclear submarine reactor/propulsion, SAM technology etc. Russia gave SU30 technology (except engine).




Wet dreams and illusions of grandure.


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## Vijyes Yechury

Clutch said:


> Wet dreams and illusions of grandure.


That is why I said- try to get technology transfer (with blueprints and codes) and then see. You are allowed to reverse engineer arms sold to you but getting the blueprint? That is wet dreams


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## khanasifm

At gawadar expo

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## MastanKhan

Vijyes Yechury said:


> That is why I said- try to get technology transfer (with blueprints and codes) and then see. You are allowed to reverse engineer arms sold to you but getting the blueprint? That is wet dreams



Hi,

There are different levels of technology transfer---. You can only use those levels---from which you can reproduce successfully---.

The thought process of pakistan versus india in TOT is different---. So---what is important to india---may not be important to pakistan---.

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## ziaulislam

Vijyes Yechury said:


> If China gives technology, then China will be considered as aggressor nation. Being nuclear armed is not the game changer. Nuclear technology is 1940s technology. Also, it is not all powerful. Submarine technology is critical and involves stealth and other aspects.
> 
> Obviously for you it is acceptable that China risks itself for Pakistan. But that calls for greater question - will chinacbe ready to face india in case of india pakistan war? Moreover, India can easily take out pakistan even before it gets ToT.
> 
> China can give technology but at its own peril. We have seen that countries prefer to give arms instead of technology as aids. So, you may be expecting too much.
> 
> 
> 
> India did not borrow any critical defence technology from Russia. Russia did not give seekers for brahmos or nuclear submarine reactor/propulsion, SAM technology etc. Russia gave SU30 technology (except engine).


what do you mean if ?
its well known that Chinese are doing everything already!

what random state, no matter how much tech you give to Taiwan they have better sources(uncle sam) what tech you can give them which uncle SAM cant..i mean really..india doesnt produce a single tech that taiwan cant make it her self!

if china thinks Taiwan is going nuclear or strategic, it will simply immediate attack take it over, will take them couple of days at bestly

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## Readerdefence

Hi at the moment all Chinese war games are Taiwan centric specially their airforce 
J20 with j10/j16 so yea I think in near future might not be soon but they will 
Decide about to get Taiwan back by on or the other 
Thank you


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## MastanKhan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi at the moment all Chinese war games are Taiwan centric specially their airforce
> J20 with j10/j16 so yea I think in near future might not be soon but they will
> Decide about to get Taiwan back by on or the other
> Thank you



Hi,

Younger Taiwanese are finding jobs in mainland china---so pretty soon---once the influence of older Taiwanese wears off---Taiwan would re-join mainland china.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Taiwan has nowhere to go but to go back to mainland china---.

It is the older generation that is stuck up in its old thinking---. Times have changed---mainland china has changed---the future and welfare of both the china's depend on each other---specially that of Taiwan---.

There is no justification for Taiwan to start or have a war with mainland china---there is no reason or rhyme to it---.

As the younger generation finds more and more jobs in the mainland---and will become dependent on the economy of the mainland---the ideology in Taiwan would change.

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## war&peace

MastanKhan said:


> The deal was signed in this manner is due to ' VERY ' large kickbacks---.


Sir nothing gets done in Pakistan without huge kickbacks. It is a norm and considered halal by both the civilian and the military guardians of the country. No harm in getting a nice hefty chunk from the pie before bidding farewell to their illustrious careers.

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## Inception-06

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 454532
> 
> 
> At gawadar expo



@Quwa you have seen that picture? Might be interesting for your analyses?


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## syed zia Hassan

Sir very nice and complete information you share nice work.... Pakistan Navy have huge experience on Agosta-class submarine from France ..I dont known Chinese submarine technology is better then French technology it take time . and need today and deal for the next 10 years .. again Fire Arrow from T-90 Tank. PNS dockyard performance not bed by the way,, is it possible to change our foreign policy of pakistan to deal Weapons. why not we deal along with technology to create jobs or get more better results. Please think about it ..when We stand up with own legs when ?


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## Vijyes Yechury

syed zia Hassan said:


> Sir very nice and complete information you share nice work.... Pakistan Navy have huge experience on Agosta-class submarine from France ..I dont known Chinese submarine technology is better then French technology it take time . and need today and deal for the next 10 years .. again Fire Arrow from T-90 Tank. PNS dockyard performance not bed by the way,, is it possible to change our foreign policy of pakistan to deal Weapons. why not we deal along with technology to create jobs or get more better results. Please think about it ..when We stand up with own legs when ?


Everyone demands for technology but it is rarely given. Why would someone give away the technology and thereby a customer? The seller always wants to have customers who buy regularly, not one-off purchases


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## Safriz

Ulla said:


> @Quwa you have seen that picture? Might be interesting for your analyses?
> 
> View attachment 461040


does not seem to have any VLS

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## The-Hack

nadeemkhan110 said:


> The Type-039/041 "Yuan" class conventional submarine, likely the basis for the export-centric S20. Photo credit: Wikipedia
> Bilal Khan -
> *PAKISTAN MINISTRY OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION CONFIRMS SUBMARINE CONTRACT*
> The Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) confirmed in its 2014-2015 report that a contract to construct new generation submarines for the Pakistan Navy was signed in April 2015. While no specific timelines were given (in regards to production and delivery), the MoDP’s report is genuine confirmation that the long-awaited program is assuredly in the procurement pipeline.
> 
> Pakistan began negotiating with China for new submarines in 2011, when at the time it was reported that the Pakistan Navy was interested in six ships powered by air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems. In April 2015, the Government of Pakistan formally approved the purchase of eight Chinese AIP submarines, and in July 2015 it was reported that the contract had been forwarded to Beijing, which would then greenlight Pakistan’s proposed financing arrangements.
> 
> In April 2016, the Pakistan Navy’s Commander of Logistics, Rear Admiral Syed Imdad Imam Jafri, praised Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) for winning a contract to produce four of the eight AIP submarines. In fact, Rear Admiral Jafri’s statements not only confirmed that the submarine deal was live, but that Pakistan was still committed to procuring AIP-equipped submarines. This is an important aspect, considering the tactical advantages borne by AIP systems, as discussed in an earlier Quwa article:
> 
> AIP technology allows SSKs to operate underwater without snorkeling for much longer periods of time, potentially as long as multiple weeks. In addition, AIP technology helps in keeping the submarine quiet, thus reducing its acoustic signature, a key advantage in subsurface combat where sound (i.e. acoustics) is the main method of detection and engagement. These advantages are more profound in the South Asian maritime theatre where there is close proximity between the two powers. For Pakistan, the amount of time a submarine can remain undetected will matter more than how far it can travel.
> 
> Beyond the fact that the submarine deal with China was signed and that KSEW will produce four of the eight ships, there are no official details, especially in regards to the submarine’s design, specifications, sensor suite, weapons inventory, or even the origin or design of its AIP system. It is believed that Pakistan’s submarines will be derived from the S20, the export variant of the Type 039A/Type 041. However, the details can only be left for speculation, at least at this stage. That said, it would be safe to assume that the Pakistan Navy will aim to position these submarines as strategic assets (via nuclear-tipped land attack cruise missiles), so as to complete Pakistan’s second-strike triad.
> 
> Overall, the Pakistan Navy’s submarine modernization roadmap is promising. With the Agosta 90Bs placed in the upgrade pipeline (with the Turkish shipbuilder STM’s support), the inclusion of these eight Chinese submarines will go a significant way in strengthening the Pakistan Navy’s anti-access and area denial (A2/AD) capabilities. In fact, there are not many countries that would boast as many as 11 AIP-powered submarines.
> SOURCE:quwa.org


Please correct me sir if i am wrong, the last submarine of this deal will deliver in 2028.... According to First post report:

*"The first four submarines are expected to be delivered by the end of 2023 while the remaining four will be assembled in Karachi by 2028."*

https://www.firstpost.com/world/pak...-eight-chinese-attack-submarines-2985174.html


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## monitor

شاھین میزایل said:


> does not seem to have any VLS



If I am not wrong benefit of having VLS is launching ballastic missile with nuclear warhead.. Pakistan will use Babur-3 SLCM through the torpedo tube for missile launch .

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## Safriz

monitor said:


> If I am not wrong benefit of having VLS is launching ballastic missile with nuclear warhead.. Pakistan will use Babur-3 SLCM through the torpedo tube for missile launch .


Yes but cruise missiles can also be launched from VLS with added benefit of being able to fire from greater depth than from torpedo tubes.

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## Karl

شاھین میزایل said:


> Yes but cruise missiles can also be launched from VLS with added benefit of being able to fire from greater depth than from torpedo tubes.




I wonder what size the torpedo tubes are. Israeli dolphin class subs have 6 × 533 mm and 4 × 650 mm diameter ones. If I'm not mistaken China's Type 032 submarine Qing class testbed submarine had 

1 × 650 mm, 1 x 533 mm torpedo tubes
2 SLBM VLS and 4 Cruise missile VLS, 
Ideally, you'd want a mix of boats, my suggestion would be 

4 with 6 × 533 mm and 4 × 650 mm torpedo tubes
4 with 8 × Cruise missile VLS

Save the SLBM VLS for the nuke sub (although doubtful Pakistan will go for a SSBN, probs a SSN attack like Brazil)


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## Safriz

Karl said:


> I wonder what size the torpedo tubes are. Israeli dolphin class subs have 6 × 533 mm and 4 × 650 mm diameter ones. If I'm not mistaken China's Type 032 submarine Qing class testbed submarine had
> 
> 1 × 650 mm, 1 x 533 mm torpedo tubes
> 2 SLBM VLS and 4 Cruise missile VLS,
> Ideally, you'd want a mix of boats, my suggestion would be
> 
> 4 with 6 × 533 mm and 4 × 650 mm torpedo tubes
> 4 with 8 × Cruise missile VLS
> 
> Save the SLBM VLS for the nuke sub (although doubtful Pakistan will go for a SSBN, probs a SSN attack like Brazil)


Our subs will not be the same as the testbed Qing class . That one had an underbelly hump and stability issues due to that . The underbelly hump was added for SLBM tubes which Pakistan currently doesn't need . Our land based missiles are high mobility all terrain TELS unlike india's super heavy road and rail mobile .so out land missiles are our mainstay for second strike capability. 
About torpedo tubes, these are not engraved in stone and bespoke size can be fitted as per Pakistani requirements which is currently the 533mm .


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## Vijyes Yechury

شاھین میزایل said:


> Our subs will not be the same as the testbed Qing class . That one had an underbelly hump and stability issues due to that . The underbelly hump was added for SLBM tubes which Pakistan currently doesn't need . Our land based missiles are high mobility all terrain TELS unlike india's super heavy road and rail mobile .so out land missiles are our mainstay for second strike capability.
> About torpedo tubes, these are not engraved in stone and bespoke size can be fitted as per Pakistani requirements which is currently the 533mm .


Indian missiles are heavy only for the long range ones. The short range ones are as roadmobile as any other missile. You can't expect a 50tonne Agni 5 to be all-terrain mobile.

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## Safriz

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Indian missiles are heavy only for the long range ones. The short range ones are as roadmobile as any other missile. You can't expect a 50tonne Agni 5 to be all-terrain mobile.


Well yes, you can expect a 50 ton missile to be all terrain mobile. 
North Korean Hwasong 15 is 90 tonner and all terrain mobile. 
Russian Topol at 47 ton is all terrain mobile.

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## Mrc

شاھین میزایل said:


> Well yes, you can expect a 50 ton missile to be all terrain mobile.
> North Korean Hwasong 15 is 90 tonner and all terrain mobile.
> Russian Topol at 47 ton is all terrain mobile.




50 tonnes with single war head....

Russian satan 2 is 100 tonnes... carriers global reach... 2 megaton worth of payload and 200 decoys


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## Safriz

Mrc said:


> 50 tonnes with single war head....
> 
> Russian satan 2 is 100 tonnes... carriers global reach... 2 megaton worth of payload and 200 decoys


Shut up.
Agni -5 has Hazoomazunga MIRV 21, can destroy the world in one shot

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## amardeep mishra

شاھین میزایل said:


> Our land based missiles are high mobility all terrain TELS unlike india's super heavy road and rail mobile .so out land missiles are our mainstay for second strike capability.


Hi Shaheen Missile!
Yes it is true that Pakistani strategic missiles in general are more road mobile vis-a-vis their Indian counterpart, but that is because Pakistan uses Chinese(which are Russian copies) or Ukrainian TELs. I believe, India should license produce series of MAZ trucks for these strategic missiles as no Indian manufacturer can design a 16x16 heavy duty military carrier-- the max any Indian company has designed is 12x12 carriers for cruise missiles and other applications. There are couple of things that need to be taken into account-
1) Indian strategic missiles are being cannisterized starting from Agni-5. For instance they recently cannisterized Agni-4 and Agni-2. This is strict departure from previous practice. The effects of this practice are manifold-
(a) Firstly, it allows Indian planners to strike at a very very short notice of less than 10min.
(b) Secondly, it means warheads will be kept mated with the strategic systems.
This means a flexible nuclear doctrine against Pakistan.
2) Indian strategic missiles are rail-mobile. Long time back I remember seeing a rail carriage wagon housing a full fledged Agni-3. This is similar to soviet practice. Thanks to the vast Indian railway network, this ICBM train can be stationed anywhere.

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## syed_yusuf

If these subs without 6-8 vls for babur and without modern aips, I would consider them as another lemon FOR PN. just like all other procurements done by PN in recent times

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## Ultima Thule

syed_yusuf said:


> If these subs without 6-8 vls for babur and without modern aips, I would consider them as another lemon FOR PN. just like all other procurements done by PN in recent times


VLS is not confirmed but AIP is confirm @syed_yusuf


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## syed_yusuf

Good to know about AIPS what I found out that AIPS will be from 5th sub onwards not a good news for me, I am still trying to find out about VLS . I hope I am wrong and all 8 cones in with AIPS plus 8 vls for babur full range missile. That will be a game changer

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## thunderkaka

Are these nuclear submarines that Pak is buying from China?


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## Vijyes Yechury

thunderkaka said:


> Are these nuclear submarines that Pak is buying from China?


It is banned by international rules to sell any weapon with nuclear material, warhead or submarines. One can lease nuclear submarine provided it is under supervision of the home country by means of an ombudsman. But, that will mean that such a submarine will not be able to be operated freely and many equipments like nuclear warhead tipped missiles will not be permitted.

So, I don't think China is going to sell nuclear submarine to Pakistan.

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## CHI RULES

Vijyes Yechury said:


> It is banned by international rules to sell any weapon with nuclear material, warhead or submarines. One can lease nuclear submarine provided it is under supervision of the home country by means of an ombudsman. But, that will mean that such a submarine will not be able to be operated freely and many equipments like nuclear warhead tipped missiles will not be permitted.
> 
> So, I don't think China is going to sell nuclear submarine to Pakistan.



It is clear every where that these shall be AIP equipped conventional subs though may have tubes capable of firing 450 KM range Babur CM.


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## Armchair

I have a feeling that half of them will be nuclear submarines, converted by using an indigenous nuclear power plant. My best guess after looking through some of the posts by senior posters on this forum.


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## Basel

syed_yusuf said:


> If these subs without 6-8 vls for babur and without modern aips, I would consider them as another lemon FOR PN. just like all other procurements done by PN in recent times



SLCMs can be fired from Torpedo tubes and Babur-3 test video shows that Pakistani SLCM is designed to be fired from Torpedo tubes.

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## Pakistani Aircraft

Only 4 years to go Insha'Allah. When it was first announced, it felt like decades away.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Why don't Pakistan gets 4 Submarines on Lease ? Once we get our new submarines perhaps we can return the lease ones back to China?


4 Ships (Lease)

4 Submarines (Lease)

 Of course we can opt to buy if we want to retain the Lease units

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## Vijyes Yechury

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Why don't Pakistan gets 4 Submarines on Lease ? Once we get our new submarines perhaps we can return the lease ones back to China?
> 
> 
> 4 Ships (Lease)
> 
> 4 Submarines (Lease)
> 
> Of course we cab opt to buy if we want to retain the Lease units


The only country that has ever leased a submarine is USSR and that too a nuclear submarine to India as it is prohibited to sell them. A leased submarine can't be used to fight but only can be used for surveillance and training


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Thank that changes every thing ... so we should look into getting more leased ships and submarines


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## Vijyes Yechury

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Thank that changes every thing ... so we should look into getting more leased ships and submarines


These ships can't be used for fighting. Hence Pakistan can only get training, not able to fight war with it. Why would Pakistan want such restrictions? Unless Pakistan has a nuclear submarine project and needs training in handling such a submarine, there is no reason to lease. Also, it is unlikely that any country will charge less for a lease of conventional ship/submarine than outright buying. These vessels are customised and hence taking it back after lease period will require overhauling which prevents anyone from leasing at low prices. Leasing is only worthwhile for higher end technology like nuclear submarine and that too for training purpose only

Which country is ready to give nuclear submarine or ship on lease to Pakistan?


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## IblinI

Some rare angle come from Type 039B.

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## khanasifm

CHI RULES said:


> It is clear every where that these shall be AIP equipped conventional subs though may have tubes capable of firing 450 KM range Babur CM.



Max range not disclosed I think the test range was 450 km but it could be assumed range is between 450-700 km similar to land based version 

Initial statement from ispr / navy stated test range was 450km 

My guess though 

Similarly Shaheen iii was tested for 2000 km but actual range is 2750km based on fuel but tested to 2000 km

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## LKJ86

*吴晓光所长会见巴基斯坦海军沙菲克少将*
李戈阳 王薇 中船重工701所 昨天






7月6日上午，吴晓光所长在综合楼会客厅会见了巴基斯坦海军某项目负责人沙菲克少将，我所陈炜所长助理、外贸处和潜艇部相关领导参加了活动。

沙菲克少将感谢吴晓光所长的专门会见和周到安排，对我所的项目设计工作表示满意，对各方在时间紧、任务重、困难多的情况下为推进项目做出的努力表达诚挚的谢意，同时对此项目综合保障包开发合作事项提出了后续工作建议。

吴晓光所长对沙菲克少将一行的到来表示欢迎。他表示，该项目是“一带一路”的重要成果，更是中巴深厚友谊的象征，针对巴方关心的各类问题，双方将继续加强沟通协商，进一步加深在设计理念方面的共识，确保项目按计划高质量实施，不断开启中巴技术合作新篇章。

Source:https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/MtIq9rzZUl6BBXJzdLXC3w

*Google Translate:*
On the morning of July 6, Director Wu Xiaoguang met with Major General Shafik, the head of the project of the Pakistan Navy, in the living room of the comprehensive building. The assistants of the director of the Institute, the Foreign Trade Office and the submarine department attended the event.

Major General Shafiq thanked Director Wu Xiaoguang for his special meeting and thoughtful arrangement, expressed his satisfaction with the design work of our project, and expressed sincere interest to all parties in their efforts to promote the project in a tight schedule, heavy tasks and difficulties. Thanks, at the same time, I proposed follow-up work on the development cooperation package for this project.

Director Wu Xiaoguang welcomed the arrival of Major General Shafiq and his party. He said that the project is an important achievement of the "Belt and Road" and is a symbol of China-Pakistan deep friendship. The two sides will continue to strengthen communication and consultation on various issues of concern to the Palestinian side, further deepen the consensus on design concepts and ensure the project. According to the high-quality implementation of the plan, we will continue to open a new chapter in China-Pakistan technical cooperation.

@Zarvan

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## SABRE

Vijyes Yechury said:


> It is banned by international rules to sell any weapon with nuclear material, warhead or submarines. One can lease nuclear submarine provided it is under supervision of the home country by means of an ombudsman. But, that will mean that such a submarine will not be able to be operated freely and many equipments like nuclear warhead tipped missiles will not be permitted.
> 
> So, I don't think China is going to sell nuclear submarine to Pakistan.



It is forbidden to sell nuclear warheads under NPT. It clearly qualifies as a nuclear device.

There is no ban on nuclear material so long it is for civilian use and preferably transferred under IAEA safeguards and oversight.

It is NOT forbidden to sell nuclear powered submarines. Only its nuclear payload i.e. nuclear capable SLBM and SLCM would be barred from sell, and that too due to international norms. MTCR is an informal agreement (not formally binding). Essentially, its just the nuclear warheads for SLCM & SLBM that states are formally not allowed to sell. The fuel for nuclear submarine is a big grey area. If nuclear submarines were ever banned, USSR/Russia would never have been able to even lease it to India. The reason states don't sell nuclear submarines are due to the; (1). political implications, (2). technological implications, and (3). operational implications: most possessor states usually only produce and operate minimum required number of nuclear submarines because of their high cost. Thus, they can seldom afford to divert them away from national operational requirements.

China has scarcity of nuclear powered submarines and would not be willing to handover its new boats to anyone, though it may be willing to accommodate PN personal onboard its subs for training purpose. The Type-092 - PLAN's first nuclear submarine - has a questionable capability, is underpowered, and is a health hazard. PLAN might have even secretly retired it by now. If PN wants a nuclear submarine it would have to build one indigenously with or without Chinese assistance. The question is whether we actually need one? PN seeks littoral deterrence, for which AIP equipped conventional submarines with few Vertical Launch Systems (VLS) could suffice.


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## Vijyes Yechury

SABRE said:


> It is forbidden to sell nuclear warheads under NPT. It clearly qualifies as a nuclear device.
> 
> There is no ban on nuclear material so long it is for civilian use and preferably transferred under IAEA safeguards and oversight.
> 
> It is NOT forbidden to sell nuclear powered submarines. Only its nuclear payload i.e. nuclear capable SLBM and SLCM would be barred from sell, and that too due to international norms. MTCR is an informal agreement (not formally binding). Essentially, its just the nuclear warheads for SLCM & SLBM that states are formally not allowed to sell. The fuel for nuclear submarine is a big grey area. If nuclear submarines were ever banned, USSR/Russia would never have been able to even lease it to India. The reason states don't sell nuclear submarines are due to the; (1). political implications, (2). technological implications, and (3). operational implications: most possessor states usually only produce and operate minimum required number of nuclear submarines because of their high cost. Thus, they can seldom afford to divert them away from national operational requirements.
> 
> China has scarcity of nuclear powered submarines and would not be willing to handover its new boats to anyone, though it may be willing to accommodate PN personal onboard its subs for training purpose. The Type-092 - PLAN's first nuclear submarine - has a questionable capability, is underpowered, and is a health hazard. PLAN might have even secretly retired it by now. If PN wants a nuclear submarine it would have to build one indigenously with or without Chinese assistance. The question is whether we actually need one? PN seeks littoral deterrence, for which AIP equipped conventional submarines with few Vertical Launch Systems (VLS) could suffice.


Nuclear reactor technology is also proprietary. It is not simply sold off. Now, just like Pakistan gave nuclear material to Libya, Iran etc, it is also possible for others to give away nuclear submarines, but selling them is not acceptable under NPT. The miniature nuclear reactor used in submarine is a difficult design and not something anyone can make. That is where the technology part comes in.

Manufacturing in numbers is not a problem. China makes cars like pizzas - 2.4 crore a year! They make submarines and other defence items rather quickly too. So, I would not say that making a nuclear submarine is a big task when the technology is already available. The question is will China give the high end proprietary technology to Pakistan like Pakistan gave away nuclear weapons secrets to Libya, Iran etc?


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## HariPrasad

Waste of money PAKISTAN SHOULD have gone for French subs.


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## Lone Ranger

HariPrasad said:


> Waste of money PAKISTAN SHOULD have gone for French subs.


*write a letter to NHQ ...... i'm sure they will consider expert opinion seriously *

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## HariPrasad

Lone Ranger said:


> *write a letter to NHQ ...... i'm sure they will consider expert opinion seriously *



How can they? I am a kafir.


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## Awan68

HariPrasad said:


> How can they? I am a kafir.


Good point.



HariPrasad said:


> How can they? I am a kafir.


I was bieng sarcastic n u liked my comment, how slow and lame u indians are......

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## Gryphon

HariPrasad said:


> Waste of money PAKISTAN SHOULD have gone for French subs.



You should tell this to the Royal Thai Navy, which is getting the same submarines along with CM-708UNB anti-ship missiles (range: 290 km).

DCNS even lost the Pakistan Navy Agosta 90B upgrade tender to Turkey's STM.


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## Imran Khan

Vijyes Yechury said:


> The only country that has ever leased a submarine is USSR and that too a nuclear submarine to India as it is prohibited to sell them. A leased submarine can't be used to fight but only can be used for surveillance and training


you indians think world start from kashmir to kaniya kumari ? its common practice to lease ships and submarines 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...d-shed-for-leased-submarines/article18282679/


https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/sweden-has-a-sub-thats-so-deadly-the-us-navy-hired-it-t-1649695984

The Canadian navy leases a submarine from the U.S. for training purposes, renaming it HMCS Grilse.

The Canadian navy leases another American sub, renaming it HMCS Rainbow,

USA to Lease Gotland-Class Sub
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...kholm-oks-submarine-lease-to-us-(nov.-8).html

S-25 served both the US and Polish Navies (Lend _Lease_ from U.K.) 


*Australia urged to lease subs*
https://www.smh.com.au/national/australia-urged-to-lease-subs-20120210-1t9d8.html

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## khanasifm

Stay in the topic and ignore/block if needed


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## HariPrasad

Gryphon said:


> You should tell this to the Royal Thai Navy, which is getting the same submarines along with CM-708UNB anti-ship missiles (range: 290 km).
> 
> DCNS even lost the Pakistan Navy Agosta 90B upgrade tender to Turkey's STM.



IIwill tell that to everyone who buys chinese crap.


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## The Accountant

HariPrasad said:


> IIwill tell that to everyone who buys chinese crap.


India is one of the biggest importer of china ... Lolz

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## AUz

HariPrasad said:


> Waste of money PAKISTAN SHOULD have gone for French subs.





You wished Pakistan went for French crap with kickbacks and always a threat that Frenchies will share the source codes for submarine systems with the hostile forces in future and undermine our entire fleet.

Pakistan went with a quality Chinese product with significant Pakistani input, greater control on source codes, AND we would also be able to integrate our nuclear cruise missiles on these submarines---making them true killer beasts under water patrolling the Indian ocean and beyond  

Within a decade, Pakistan will achieve the capability to evaporate the largest indian coastal cities from ocean, if the need arises.

Fun fact: 2/3rds of india's largest cities with most population and economic weight are along the coast...

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## Baby Leone

weopon weopon weopon.......i dont know where is humanity

i wish we would be Like Australia or Newzeland with no immediate neighbor like the sh!tty countries we have in our East & West

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## AUz

HariPrasad said:


> So french subs in PN are crap? I never knew that. I thought they are very potent subs.



Compared to the military advantage and capability the new Chinese subs will provide us? Yes, old Augustas are pretty down. Although, they recently got upgraded and are still more than enough to hold unprofessional and junkard indian navy at bay.

*Remember when American sailor spent time with indian navy and was surprised how unprofessional, backward, organizationally weak, and bad-smelling it was *

Read all of it 

http://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php?topic=17897.0;wap2



> this is hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!!! I enjoyed it.



Newer generation of Chinese submarine technology is regarded very formidable by Americans and Europeans in their official reports---but a bharti from the largest sh!thole without toilets find it hilarious?

No wonder you indians were peed upon by superior Muslims all through your history (and then were eventually carved up and divided into pieces )

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## Vijyes Yechury

Imran Khan said:


> you indians think world start from kashmir to kaniya kumari ? its common practice to lease ships and submarines
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...d-shed-for-leased-submarines/article18282679/
> 
> 
> https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/sweden-has-a-sub-thats-so-deadly-the-us-navy-hired-it-t-1649695984
> 
> The Canadian navy leases a submarine from the U.S. for training purposes, renaming it HMCS Grilse.
> 
> The Canadian navy leases another American sub, renaming it HMCS Rainbow,
> 
> USA to Lease Gotland-Class Sub
> http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/48372/stockholm-oks-submarine-lease-to-us-(nov.-8).html
> 
> S-25 served both the US and Polish Navies (Lend _Lease_ from U.K.)
> 
> 
> *Australia urged to lease subs*
> https://www.smh.com.au/national/australia-urged-to-lease-subs-20120210-1t9d8.html


All these are diesel submarines. Give me an example of leasing nuclear submarine or selling nuclear submarine


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## Imran Khan

Vijyes Yechury said:


> All these are diesel submarines. Give me an example of leasing nuclear submarine or selling nuclear submarine


lollllz kal se soch raha tha tera ye jwaab kab ayee ga .kasam se


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## Vijyes Yechury

AUz said:


> You wished Pakistan went for French crap with kickbacks and always a threat that Frenchies will share the source codes for submarine systems with the hostile forces in future and undermine our entire fleet.
> 
> Pakistan went with a quality Chinese product with significant Pakistani input, greater control on source codes, AND we would also be able to integrate our nuclear cruise missiles on these submarines---making them true killer beasts under water patrolling the Indian ocean and beyond
> 
> Within a decade, Pakistan will achieve the capability to evaporate the largest indian coastal cities from ocean, if the need arises.
> 
> Fun fact: 2/3rds of india's largest cities with most population and economic weight are along the coast...


Do you know what wiping a city will cost? Even biggest of big cyclones have not been able to wipe cities and your puny nukes will wipe cities?

Next, no one will give codes as the modern items work mostly in software and it will be too hard for China to rewrite codes separately for exports as giving away domestic codes will mean that their submarine will be hackable.

You are also forgetting that Pakistan has no submarine launched ballistic missile



Imran Khan said:


> lollllz kal se soch raha tha tera ye jwaab kab ayee ga .kasam se


Then give me your answer

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## Imran Khan

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Then give me your answer


i will not give you because i am not here to spoon feeding search by yourself and you will got it 

hint is
Australia 2004 
UK trident


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## khanasifm

Stay on the topic please no need for off topic discussion


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## xyxmt




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## Imran Khan

xyxmt said:


> View attachment 487181

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## syed_yusuf

Hangoor class submarines will be one of its kind. very comparable to all other subs from europe and russia. it is a modified version of type-39B to fit PN needs. all electric engine, advance AIP system, next gen command and control system, anti magnetic skin. some of them if not all of them will have either VLS or have the capability to launch babur CM and a new version of Pakistani supersonic anti-ship and land attach CM. it will have all specs a modern SSP sub can do and more. it will be tailor design for PN. there are unconfirmed news that PN might Opt for 9 instead of 8 Hangoor class subs. the one additional sub will be built in KHI to be delivered by 2028. the first sub to be delivered by 2021 and last one by 2028. 

@Bharathi participants ... junk or no junk ... hangoor will deliver a balance that will take IN another 20-25 years to undo. by 2028 IN will be boosting not more than 15 modern subs (all types). PN will be having minimum 11. learn to live with it.

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## HariPrasad

pakistanipower said:


> And you're super indiot @HariPrasad  Who always b@k crap @HariPrasad



And you have exposed your wrong upbringing numbers of time. There is no need to give proofs again and again.


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## Ultima Thule

HariPrasad said:


> And you have exposed your wrong upbringing numbers of time. There is no need to give proofs again and again.


Because you have no prove @HariPrasad , keep blabbering without a prove @HariPrasad , There old Han class trailing 3 days and USS Enterprise and its Carrier battle group didn't detect/track Han class, that sows that how is the reliable & advance Han class is lets forget type-93/94 is, Sorry to burst your bubble kid @HariPrasad

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## Vijyes Yechury

syed_yusuf said:


> Hangoor class submarines will be one of its kind. very comparable to all other subs from europe and russia. it is a modified version of type-39B to fit PN needs. all electric engine, advance AIP system, next gen command and control system, anti magnetic skin. some of them if not all of them will have either VLS or have the capability to launch babur CM and a new version of Pakistani supersonic anti-ship and land attach CM. it will have all specs a modern SSP sub can do and more. it will be tailor design for PN. there are unconfirmed news that PN might Opt for 9 instead of 8 Hangoor class subs. the one additional sub will be built in KHI to be delivered by 2028. the first sub to be delivered by 2021 and last one by 2028.
> 
> @Bharathi participants ... junk or no junk ... hangoor will deliver a balance that will take IN another 20-25 years to undo. by 2028 IN will be boosting not more than 15 modern subs (all types). PN will be having minimum 11. learn to live with it.



Does this submarine have AIP system? Can you confirm this? Is it the modern fuel cell AIP or the older one which required oxygen cylinders and hence a posed a big risk of cylinder explosion?

Also, India is either making or has made 12 submarines, 6 scorpene and 6 nuclear submarine which will be delivered by 2021, a total of 12 and then the project will be further continued to make 12 submarines every 5-6 years to maintain continuity of project building. So, by 2028, when Pakistan will have 8+5 submarines, India will have 13+24 submarines. Also, Pakistani Hashmat class is commissioned in 1979-1980 which will be close to 50 year old by 2028 and may have to be retired. So, Pakistan is likely to have 11 submarines. Indian submarines are all made after 1986 and hence retirement will be by 2031 or above (45 year life) and hence by 2028, the number of submarines with India will be 37. I would not call 11 vs 37 as parity.

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## AUz

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Do you know what wiping a city will cost? Even biggest of big cyclones have not been able to wipe cities and your puny nukes will wipe cities?





Yeah dumbf*ck, how much radiation does a "cyclone" release, hence rendering a city unlivable for human beings?

A barrage of rightly targetted nuclear strikes will destroy pretty much any city on the planet. Don't try to act like you know even an iota about defence affairs. Go try to build a toilet so your country is not some toiletless sh!thole that it is today 


> Next, no one will give codes as the modern items work mostly in software and it will be too hard for China to rewrite codes separately for exports as giving away domestic codes will mean that their submarine will be hackable.







> You are also forgetting that Pakistan has no submarine launched ballistic missile



Pakistan does not need SLBMs to destroy Mumbai 

Yes, it'll be easier relatively with ballistic missiles but a barrage of nuclear cruise missiles exploding throughout Mumbai will render the city in ruins within minutes (not to mention the toxic radiation that will spread everywhere afterwards, killing pretty much all possibility of life).

Sorry, you're sh!thole country was conquered by Muslims, was ruled by Muslims for 1000 years, was divided into multiple pieces by Muslims, and now we Muslims of Pakistan have constructed a vast nuclear military to "check mate" any possibility to your revenge. You'd be lucky if you keep the 'india' you have intact. I want you to, so that Islam continues to increase throughout india Mashallah

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## Vijyes Yechury

AUz said:


> Yeah dumbf*ck, how much radiation does a "cyclone" release, hence rendering a city unlivable for human beings?
> 
> A barrage of rightly targetted nuclear strikes will destroy pretty much any city on the planet. Don't try to act like you know even an iota about defence affairs. Go try to build a toilet so your country is not some toiletless sh!thole that it is today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan does not need SLBMs to destroy Mumbai
> 
> Yes, it'll be easier relatively with ballistic missiles but a barrage of nuclear cruise missiles exploding throughout Mumbai will render the city in ruins within minutes (not to mention the toxic radiation that will spread everywhere afterwards, killing pretty much all possibility of life).
> 
> Sorry, you're sh!thole country was conquered by Muslims, was ruled by Muslims for 1000 years, was divided into multiple pieces by Muslims, and now we Muslims of Pakistan have constructed a vast nuclear military to "check mate" any possibility to your revenge. You'd be lucky if you keep the 'india' you have intact. I want you to, so that Islam continues to increase throughout india Mashallah



First, you must understand that radiation is a hoax. How many people died in open nuclear tests of USA< Russia, CHina? The answer is zero. The nuclear bomb radiation is the most foolish thing one could ever come up with. Only nuclear wastes have radiation, not nuclear reaction itself!

India was not ruled by muslims for 1000 years. The first attack came in 1192 and then too, only small parts of north and northwest was conquered. Don't forget Marathas, Reddy, Sikhs who drove away muslims. If not for British coming in with industrial technology, India was about to be fully conquered by Marathas.

And, muslims in India are a bargaining chip for Petroleum and investment from Arabs. India gets FDI of 60 billion dollars and remittance of 70 billion dollars and except for some parts of the remittance, about 90-100 billion dollars come in too placate India and to not expel muslims into Pakistan. So, don't think too much about muslims in India. Tomorrow, problem increase, it will be like Rohingya of Myanmar. Only this time, the numbers will be so huge that Pakistan will be overcrowded and will starve to death. There is no bigger bargaining chip than muslims in India. For all the troubles that is caused, the returns in terms of petroleum, investment and economy is massive.

I don't seek the India I have. I seek more than that. How about Islamabad becoming Dharmasthala?


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## The Accountant

Vijyes Yechury said:


> First, you must understand that radiation is a hoax. How many people died in open nuclear tests of USA< Russia, CHina? The answer is zero. The nuclear bomb radiation is the most foolish thing one could ever come up with. Only nuclear wastes have radiation, not nuclear reaction itself!
> 
> India was not ruled by muslims for 1000 years. The first attack came in 1192 and then too, only small parts of north and northwest was conquered. Don't forget Marathas, Reddy, Sikhs who drove away muslims. If not for British coming in with industrial technology, India was about to be fully conquered by Marathas.
> 
> And, muslims in India are a bargaining chip for Petroleum and investment from Arabs. India gets FDI of 60 billion dollars and remittance of 70 billion dollars and except for some parts of the remittance, about 90-100 billion dollars come in too placate India and to not expel muslims into Pakistan. So, don't think too much about muslims in India. Tomorrow, problem increase, it will be like Rohingya of Myanmar. Only this time, the numbers will be so huge that Pakistan will be overcrowded and will starve to death. There is no bigger bargaining chip than muslims in India. For all the troubles that is caused, the returns in terms of petroleum, investment and economy is massive.
> 
> I don't seek the India I have. I seek more than that. How about Islamabad becoming Dharmasthala?


Are you really 25 years old because you think like 12 year old ...

Nuclear reaction has no radiation, man even wikipedia can give you insight into it ...
Regarding muslims, you are talking about 172 million muslims ,,, you think you can simply expel them ... You can expel muslims from dehli, agrah, lucknow, hyderabad??? best of luck for giving a formula to further divide India ...

Kindly also read history as first attack was on Sindh in 7th century and which soon resulted in capture of other states ...

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## Mace

syed_yusuf said:


> Hangoor class submarines will be one of its kind. very comparable to all other subs from europe and russia. it is a modified version of type-39B to fit PN needs. all electric engine, advance AIP system, next gen command and control system, anti magnetic skin. some of them if not all of them will have either VLS or have the capability to launch babur CM and a new version of Pakistani supersonic anti-ship and land attach CM. it will have all specs a modern SSP sub can do and more. it will be tailor design for PN. there are unconfirmed news that PN might Opt for 9 instead of 8 Hangoor class subs. the one additional sub will be built in KHI to be delivered by 2028. the first sub to be delivered by 2021 and last one by 2028.
> 
> @Bharathi participants ... junk or no junk ... hangoor will deliver a balance that will take IN another 20-25 years to undo. by 2028 IN will be boosting not more than 15 modern subs (all types). PN will be having minimum 11. learn to live with it.



Hangoors - canned snack for the Indian Poseidons


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## Areesh

Mace said:


> Hangoors - canned snack for the Indian Poseidons



We have full faith in you. 

You would crash them all before you find even a single hangor with them.

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## Vijyes Yechury

The Accountant said:


> Are you really 25 years old because you think like 12 year old ...
> 
> Nuclear reaction has no radiation, man even wikipedia can give you insight into it ...
> Regarding muslims, you are talking about 172 million muslims ,,, you think you can simply expel them ... You can expel muslims from dehli, agrah, lucknow, hyderabad??? best of luck for giving a formula to further divide India ...
> 
> Kindly also read history as first attack was on Sindh in 7th century and which soon resulted in capture of other states ...


Nuclear reaction gives out radioactive waste but the bomb reacts only for 3 seconds which is not enough to give out large enough radiation. Wikipedia is not a good source for anything.

About muslims, dividing India further is the most foolish thought one could ever get. Only foolish people divide countries. Just like Pakistan expelled Hindus and sikhs, it is perfectly possible to expel muslims from India. Instead of number, look at it as percentage. It has been done in countries like Israel, Greece, Pakistan etc where minorities have been driven out by force. Percentage is what matters the most, not absolute numbers. Israel had over 50% muslim, Pakistan had 25% Hindus and Sikhs whereas India has 15% muslims. No one said, expulsion will not be bloody. It will be very bloody but very much possible. World population has increased by 5 times in last 100 years and hence the numbers may appear inflated.


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## Mace

Areesh said:


> We have full faith in you.
> 
> You would crash them all before you find even a single hangor with them.



 Lame

Stop wasting money on useless Chinese junk


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## Areesh

Mace said:


> Lame
> 
> Stop wasting money on useless Chinese junk



Lame

Stop wasting money on something that you would definitely crash

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## The Accountant

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Nuclear reaction gives out radioactive waste but the bomb reacts only for 3 seconds which is not enough to give out large enough radiation. Wikipedia is not a good source for anything.
> 
> About muslims, dividing India further is the most foolish thought one could ever get. Only foolish people divide countries. Just like Pakistan expelled Hindus and sikhs, it is perfectly possible to expel muslims from India. Instead of number, look at it as percentage. It has been done in countries like Israel, Greece, Pakistan etc where minorities have been driven out by force. Percentage is what matters the most, not absolute numbers. Israel had over 50% muslim, Pakistan had 25% Hindus and Sikhs whereas India has 15% muslims. No one said, expulsion will not be bloody. It will be very bloody but very much possible. World population has increased by 5 times in last 100 years and hence the numbers may appear inflated.


And your bed is wet ... Why dont you start with Kashmir ?

With your logic on nuclear weapon you are realy a 12 year kid not worth my attention


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## Vijyes Yechury

The Accountant said:


> And your bed is wet ... Why dont you start with Kashmir ?
> 
> With your logic on nuclear weapon you are realy a 12 year kid not worth my attention


We are getting 130 billion dollars of foreign funds and resources and hence there is no need to react on Kashmir. It is a trade-off.


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## SABRE

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Nuclear reactor technology is also proprietary. It is not simply sold off. Now, just like Pakistan gave nuclear material to Libya, Iran etc, it is also possible for others to give away nuclear submarines, *but selling them is not acceptable under NPT*. The miniature nuclear reactor used in submarine is a difficult design and not something anyone can make. That is where the technology part comes in.
> 
> Manufacturing in numbers is not a problem. China makes cars like pizzas - 2.4 crore a year! They make submarines and other defence items rather quickly too. So, I would not say that making a nuclear submarine is a big task when the technology is already available. The question is will China give the high end proprietary technology to Pakistan like Pakistan gave away nuclear weapons secrets to Libya, Iran etc?



Nuclear submarines are not covered in NPT. Read its text. NPT only intends to prevent proliferation of nuclear weapons devices and their capability.


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## Arsalan

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Submarines are devices and if powered by nuclear power, it becomes nuclear device. Also, provision of technology like miniature reactor is considered dangerous


He said nuclear WEAPONS devices! Are you really so naive or is it just an attempt at derailing the thread?

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## Maarkhoor

Arsalan said:


> He said nuclear WEAPONS devices! Are you really so naive or is it just an attempt at derailing the thread?


They even can't differentiate between underwear and software let aside military terminologies and weapons.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Why do these creatures have to destroy any thread where positive discussion is going on.

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## The Accountant

Mace said:


> Hangoors - canned snack for the Indian Poseidons


Try it ... try to bring it within couple of hundred kms of range of our territorial water and watch them frying ... Poseidons are defensive weapons to defend your key assets and installations and you are draiming of using them in offensive scenario ...


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## Maarkhoor

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Why do these creatures have to destroy any thread where positive discussion is going on.


These subhuman things are obsessed with Pakistan and Muslim so much that spend whole day derailing and trolling us.

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## Vijyes Yechury

Arsalan said:


> He said nuclear WEAPONS devices! Are you really so naive or is it just an attempt at derailing the thread?


NPT does not stop it but NSG puts pressure as to not give it. These technology can be provided in illegal manner but that is same as nuclear weapons, satellite building, ballistic missile technology which also can be sold in illegal manner. There is no one that can stop from selling these items. But, it is generally the norm that countries don't sell high end technology to avoid any future implications. Only where the countries are culturally close with similar values on things, will they provide critical technology.

There is no absoluteness in my words but it is just what is being followed by people with rational mindset. China does not see Pakistan as cultural brothers and have no reason to assume that if not today, after 50 years, Pakistan won't use the technology from China to harm China. That is all I can say.


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## aasan

Shaheer ul haq said:


> We are already planning to build a nuclear sub by 2020 and that will be indigenous.


fake news...

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Vijyes Yechury said:


> NPT does not stop it but NSG puts pressure as to not give it. These technology can be provided in illegal manner but that is same as nuclear weapons, satellite building, ballistic missile technology which also can be sold in illegal manner. There is no one that can stop from selling these items. But, it is generally the norm that countries don't sell high end technology to avoid any future implications. Only where the countries are culturally close with similar values on things, will they provide critical technology.
> 
> There is no absoluteness in my words but it is just what is being followed by people with rational mindset. China does not see Pakistan as cultural brothers and have no reason to assume that if not today, after 50 years, Pakistan won't use the technology from China to harm China. That is all I can say.






A bit like how the indians used to say that the Chinese will NEVER EVER assist Pakistan in becoming a nuclear weapons state. That they would be stopped by america, the West and Russia even if they wanted to......... .we all know what with that indianism.............. .


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## Arsalan

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Nuclear reactor technology is also proprietary. It is not simply sold off. Now, just like Pakistan gave nuclear material to Libya, Iran etc, *it is also possible for others to give away nuclear submarines, but selling them is not acceptable under NPT.* The miniature nuclear reactor used in submarine is a difficult design and not something anyone can make. That is where the technology part comes in.






Vijyes Yechury said:


> *NPT does not stop i**t* but NSG puts pressure as to not give it.



Thank you for understanding and admitting it. This is all people have been trying to say and tell you.
Rest as they say is nothing but hogwash.


So guys, now that our friend here have corrected himself and understood the fact/reality, can we go back to topic and may be even deleted all off-topic posts? 
@WAJsal @The Eagle @Slav Defence @Oscar @Horus 
Thank you

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Did China give Pakistan the technology? China has given ready made items like 50kg Uranium but not technology. Blueprints is what matters in these things. AQ Khan stole the blueprints from Europe and then used it to make Uranium cetrifuge.
> 
> If you still believe that CHina will assist Pakistan, then why don't you check it yourself by asking for items like satellite, nuclear submarine etc.






And someone who belongs to the race and nation that calls for the destruction of the Pakistani race and nation is really in a position to talk about our defence aquisations and capabilities...........

Who do think gave Pakistan the capability to be able to produce H-bombs and Thermonuclear weapons since at least 2011?.........:

http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...g-nuclear-weapons-time-for-pakistan-to-rever/

PS Do you have ANY evidence to back your claims? If not then they are more indianistic lies just like the millions, indians spout daily.


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## CHI RULES

Vijyes Yechury said:


> First, you must understand that radiation is a hoax. How many people died in open nuclear tests of USA< Russia, CHina? The answer is zero. The nuclear bomb radiation is the most foolish thing one could ever come up with. Only nuclear wastes have radiation, not nuclear reaction itself!
> 
> India was not ruled by muslims for 1000 years. The first attack came in 1192 and then too, only small parts of north and northwest was conquered. Don't forget Marathas, Reddy, Sikhs who drove away muslims. If not for British coming in with industrial technology, India was about to be fully conquered by Marathas.
> 
> And, muslims in India are a bargaining chip for Petroleum and investment from Arabs. India gets FDI of 60 billion dollars and remittance of 70 billion dollars and except for some parts of the remittance, about 90-100 billion dollars come in too placate India and to not expel muslims into Pakistan. So, don't think too much about muslims in India. Tomorrow, problem increase, it will be like Rohingya of Myanmar. Only this time, the numbers will be so huge that Pakistan will be overcrowded and will starve to death. There is no bigger bargaining chip than muslims in India. For all the troubles that is caused, the returns in terms of petroleum, investment and economy is massive.
> 
> I don't seek the India I have. I seek more than that. How about Islamabad becoming Dharmasthala?


Please do check figures and facts how much radiation causes death and agony. In Chernobyl and even in Hiroshima/ Nagasaki people have suffered for long. The people working in nuclear related facilities often get Cancer.

Further I have heard that even Chicken feed also some times contain hazardous materials which cause Cancer. The disease is spreading Pakistan and many people here have got cancer, few have died from disease. Even minor particles are enough to make a person fatally sick.


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## Jaanbaz

Vijyes Yechury said:


> NPT does not stop it but NSG puts pressure as to not give it. These technology can be provided in illegal manner but that is same as nuclear weapons, satellite building, ballistic missile technology which also can be sold in illegal manner. There is no one that can stop from selling these items. But, it is generally the norm that countries don't sell high end technology to avoid any future implications. Only where the countries are culturally close with similar values on things, will they provide critical technology.
> 
> There is no absoluteness in my words but it is just what is being followed by people with rational mindset. China does not see Pakistan as cultural brothers and have no reason to assume that if not today, after 50 years, Pakistan won't use the technology from China to harm China. That is all I can say.



Did you just crawl out of Modi's asshole?


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## 帅的一匹

Mace said:


> Hangoors - canned snack for the Indian Poseidons


only few P 8I cant do magic.


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## Arsalan

wanglaokan said:


> only few P 8I cant do magic.


Arabia sea is one of the most difficult to hunt down submarines as per someone who works on a submarine. P8I though is extra efficient, but finding a stealthy boat in vast ocean wont be an easy task. BUT, i will like them to think of these as canned food


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## 帅的一匹

Arsalan said:


> Arabia sea is one of the most difficult to hunt down submarines as per someone who works on a submarine. P8I though is extra efficient, but finding a stealthy boat in vast ocean wont be an easy task. BUT, i will like them to think of these as canned food


the best way is to hit the airport where P 8I station, make sure it doesnt take off.


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## denel

CHI RULES said:


> Please do check figures and facts how much radiation causes death and agony. In Chernobyl and even in Hiroshima/ Nagasaki people have suffered for long. The people working in nuclear related facilities often get Cancer.
> 
> Further I have heard that even Chicken feed also some times contain hazardous materials which cause Cancer. The disease is spreading Pakistan and many people here have got cancer, few have died from disease. Even minor particles are enough to make a person fatally sick.


NOOOO..... IT is not chicken feed friend, it is always the steroids which are pumped. feed is just an excuse. Here we avoid giving any bone meal to cattle.


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## EpiiC

AUz said:


> You wished Pakistan went for French crap with kickbacks and always a threat that Frenchies will share the source codes for submarine systems with the hostile forces in future and undermine our entire fleet.
> 
> Pakistan went with a quality Chinese product with significant Pakistani input, greater control on source codes, AND we would also be able to integrate our nuclear cruise missiles on these submarines---making them true killer beasts under water patrolling the Indian ocean and beyond
> 
> Within a decade, Pakistan will achieve the capability to evaporate the largest indian coastal cities from ocean, if the need arises.
> 
> Fun fact: 2/3rds of india's largest cities with most population and economic weight are along the coast...


Chinese Subs make too much noise, sorpene is a better sub but your right that Pak will get more control over Chinese bought sub.... But we don't have H-bombs and low number of Nukes, plus no SSBN's for proper second strike capability.



Kami leone said:


> weopon weopon weopon.......i dont know where is humanity
> 
> i wish we would be Like Australia or Newzeland with no immediate neighbor like the sh!tty countries we have in our East & West


Pakistan would still be a poor Country.... albeit with less terrorism, slightly better quality of life.... You can bomb Germany/Japan into submission and destroy them but they will come to x100 and be better than a country like PAK... Its called progression/Modern World....


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## Arsalan

wanglaokan said:


> the best way is to hit the airport where P 8I station, make sure it doesnt take off.


Easier said than done!
Again, Arabian sea is not an easy place to hunt down subs, the odds are stacked in favor of Submarines. They are here for a reason. Waiting for some more info to come out on the eight subs we will be getting, exact type, modification, weapons it will carry, hull type etc.


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## Vijyes Yechury

Arsalan said:


> Easier said than done!
> Again, Arabian sea is not an easy place to hunt down subs, the odds are stacked in favor of Submarines. They are here for a reason. Waiting for some more info to come out on the eight subs we will be getting, exact type, modification, weapons it will carry, hull type etc.


Only submarines with AIP is useful. Other submarines will be detected rather easily. P8 is not all powerful and submarines are here to stay. P8 can only detect upto a limited extent, not everything


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## Ultima Thule

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Only submarines with AIP is useful. Other submarines will be detected rather easily. P8 is not all powerful and submarines are here to stay. P8 can only detect upto a limited extent, not everything


yes AIP sub coming to Pakistan from China @Vijyes Yechury


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## Aamir Hussain

After having said all......subs have an inherent advantage. It goes without saying that all subs that PN is getting will have AIP (What type--need to be seen). So the odds are stacked in favor of subs whether Indian or Pakistani subs operating in Indian Ocean/Arabia Sea.

With increased stand off weapons launch capability, the patrol area for a Sub Hunter becomes large. And do remember, aircraft speed becomes relevant when transiting to and fro from patrol area, Once in the patrol area, grid pattern searches, scan range and capability limits the use of higher speeds for jet engined aircraft.

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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

jetstar said:


> *Yes this is a great achievements more then others new generation submarine
> but now we need Nuclear Submarine*


nuke sub cost a lot of money, a lot. a lot 
I do not think Pakistani current financial status can bear It!
nuclear related means huge amount money related!


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## Vijyes Yechury

Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA said:


> nuke sub cost a lot of money, a lot. a lot
> I do not think Pakistani current financial status can bear It!
> nuclear related means huge amount money related!


Also, each submarine requires 2 ton of Natural Uranium every year to operate. India will be happy that Pakistan is wasting its Uranium on submarines. Pakistan has total Uranium extraction of about 20-30 tons every year. How will Pakistan survive with say 6 nuclear submarine?


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## Mace

wanglaokan said:


> only few P 8I cant do magic.



P8Is out there are the very best in long range sub hunters today. These are very capable and are fitted out with the latest American technology including Harpoon missiles. They will prove to be a handful at times of conflict.

India has 8 now. 4 more on order. Possibly more after that.


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## Areesh

Mace said:


> P8Is out there are the very best in long range sub hunters today. These are very capable and are fitted out with the latest American technology including Harpoon missiles. They will prove to be a handful at times of conflict.
> 
> India has 8 now. 4 more on order. Possibly more after that.



Buy more since after crashing few you would need more to replace the crashed ones

Buy replacements in advance

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## Vijyes Yechury

Areesh said:


> Buy more since after crashing few you would need more to replace the crashed ones
> 
> Buy replacements in advance


Next we are getting indigenous submarine hunters. No need for imports after 2025. Don't worry, we also know the importance of backups. Such big planes are easy to be shot down


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## UserUnknown2025

Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA said:


> nuke sub cost a lot of money, a lot. a lot
> I do not think Pakistani current financial status can bear It!
> nuclear related means huge amount money related!


套家换加的气改
Yeah nuclear subs are very expensive and I think Pakistan should spend the money else where more productive.


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## Areesh

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Next we are getting indigenous submarine hunters. No need for imports after 2025. Don't worry, we also know the importance of backups. Such big planes are easy to be shot down



Sure. You would definitely need backup. Lots of it.

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## Thorough Pro

This thread title is so misleading, It should have been, "Pakistan to get delivery of 8 subs from China in 2022"



nadeemkhan110 said:


> The Type-039/041 "Yuan" class conventional submarine, likely the basis for the export-centric S20. Photo credit: Wikipedia
> Bilal Khan -
> *PAKISTAN MINISTRY OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION CONFIRMS SUBMARINE CONTRACT*
> The Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) confirmed in its 2014-2015 report that a contract to construct new generation submarines for the Pakistan Navy was signed in April 2015. While no specific timelines were given (in regards to production and delivery), the MoDP’s report is genuine confirmation that the long-awaited program is assuredly in the procurement pipeline.
> 
> Pakistan began negotiating with China for new submarines in 2011, when at the time it was reported that the Pakistan Navy was interested in six ships powered by air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems. In April 2015, the Government of Pakistan formally approved the purchase of eight Chinese AIP submarines, and in July 2015 it was reported that the contract had been forwarded to Beijing, which would then greenlight Pakistan’s proposed financing arrangements.
> 
> In April 2016, the Pakistan Navy’s Commander of Logistics, Rear Admiral Syed Imdad Imam Jafri, praised Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) for winning a contract to produce four of the eight AIP submarines. In fact, Rear Admiral Jafri’s statements not only confirmed that the submarine deal was live, but that Pakistan was still committed to procuring AIP-equipped submarines. This is an important aspect, considering the tactical advantages borne by AIP systems, as discussed in an earlier Quwa article:
> 
> AIP technology allows SSKs to operate underwater without snorkeling for much longer periods of time, potentially as long as multiple weeks. In addition, AIP technology helps in keeping the submarine quiet, thus reducing its acoustic signature, a key advantage in subsurface combat where sound (i.e. acoustics) is the main method of detection and engagement. These advantages are more profound in the South Asian maritime theatre where there is close proximity between the two powers. For Pakistan, the amount of time a submarine can remain undetected will matter more than how far it can travel.
> 
> Beyond the fact that the submarine deal with China was signed and that KSEW will produce four of the eight ships, there are no official details, especially in regards to the submarine’s design, specifications, sensor suite, weapons inventory, or even the origin or design of its AIP system. It is believed that Pakistan’s submarines will be derived from the S20, the export variant of the Type 039A/Type 041. However, the details can only be left for speculation, at least at this stage. That said, it would be safe to assume that the Pakistan Navy will aim to position these submarines as strategic assets (via nuclear-tipped land attack cruise missiles), so as to complete Pakistan’s second-strike triad.
> 
> Overall, the Pakistan Navy’s submarine modernization roadmap is promising. With the Agosta 90Bs placed in the upgrade pipeline (with the Turkish shipbuilder STM’s support), the inclusion of these eight Chinese submarines will go a significant way in strengthening the Pakistan Navy’s anti-access and area denial (A2/AD) capabilities. In fact, there are not many countries that would boast as many as 11 AIP-powered submarines.
> SOURCE:quwa.org

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## iby32

Vijyes Yechury said:


> Also, each submarine requires 2 ton of Natural Uranium every year to operate. India will be happy that Pakistan is wasting its Uranium on submarines. Pakistan has total Uranium extraction of about 20-30 tons every year. How will Pakistan survive with say 6 nuclear submarine?


As you mentiond pakistan produce 20-30 tones ofuranium and a sub uses 2 tones. So if pakistan get 6 nuclear subs they will use 12 tones of it while we left with 18 so that's will be enough and by the way we ain't getting any nuke subs do cry or predict false sleep tight


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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

Chinese Type 039A diesel-electric submarine, NATO reporting name: Yuan Class.


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## Fawadqasim1

iby32 said:


> As you mentiond pakistan produce 20-30 tones ofuranium and a sub uses 2 tones. So if pakistan get 6 nuclear subs they will use 12 tones of it while we left with 18 so that's will be enough and by the way we ain't getting any nuke subs do cry or predict false sleep tight


It depends upon the type of reactor some uses only 20% enriched uranium others use near weapons grade a reactor running on 20%
Wont need more than 200 to 250kg a reactors
Running on near weapons grade might need 1/3rd or 1/4th of this. He is talking of natural uranium (1 tone of natural uranium contains about 7kgs of u235 the rest is largely u238. Which is not fissile we can mine and refine tens of tones per day if we want) so in simple words. Roughly a reactor like this requires about three bombs worth of fissile material(u235) a mid tech implosion type fission ball requires around 25 kg of u235 roughly
Very roughly speaking.
We have substantial amount of fissile material for subs that won't be the problem. But i don't think we can afford or need a nuclear powered sub.
I may be wrong though. Because i know very little about marine nuclear propulsion


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## Vijyes Yechury

Fawadqasim1 said:


> It depends upon the type of reactor some uses only 20% enriched uranium others use near weapons grade a reactor running on 20%
> Wont need more than 200 to 250kg a reactors
> Running on near weapons grade might need 1/3rd or 1/4th of this. He is talking of natural uranium (1 tone of natural uranium contains about 7kgs of u235 the rest is largely u238. Which is not fissile we can mine and refine tens of tones per day if we want) so in simple words. Roughly a reactor like this requires about three bombs worth of fissile material(u235) a mid tech implosion type fission ball requires around 25 kg of u235 roughly
> Very roughly speaking.
> We have substantial amount of fissile material for subs that won't be the problem. But i don't think we can afford or need a nuclear powered sub.


The point here is that you have to store 20 years of uranium in the submarine before you start the reactor itself. This is because refueling will require submarine to be cut apart which is a difficult process. So, each SSBN submarine will require 40-60 tons of natural uranium initially for commissioning (2-3 tons per year or about 15-20 kg U235 a year). Does Pakistan have the ability to get 300 ton Natural uranium for 6 SSBN submarines? The 2-3 ton usage is for SSBN which stay underwater and move slowly without any patrol duty. For SSN submarine, the requirement will be higher due to higher power requirement for patrolling. Each SSN may need twice the uranium as SSBN and hence the requirement of Natural Uranium will ~100 tons for 20 years. For 6 SSN submarine, Pakistan will need 600 tons worth of natural uranium to be directly stashed in submarines initially.

The added problem is that the Uranium used up in these PWR reactors will have high levels of Pu240 and hence not fit to be made into Pu239 plutonium bombs, unlike the PHWR ones in Kahuta. So, diverting large quantity of uranium may not be possible without shutting down nuclear bomb manufacturing.

Price is never the problem as long as the items are produced in the country. Since none is willing to give nuclear technology, Pakistan will have to get its own reactors and other items. So, the cost will be internal only. Uranium quantity is the main issue that minor Uranium producers like Pakistan will face.

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## Fawadqasim1

Vijyes Yechury said:


> The point here is that you have to store 20 years of uranium in the submarine before you start the reactor itself. This is because refueling will require submarine to be cut apart which is a difficult process. So, each SSBN submarine will require 40-60 tons of natural uranium initially for commissioning (2-3 tons per year or about 15-20 kg U235 a year). Does Pakistan have the ability to get 300 ton Natural uranium for 6 SSBN submarines? The 2-3 ton usage is for SSBN which stay underwater and move slowly without any patrol duty. For SSN submarine, the requirement will be higher due to higher power requirement for patrolling. Each SSN may need twice the uranium as SSBN and hence the requirement of Natural Uranium will ~100 tons for 20 years. For 6 SSN submarine, Pakistan will need 600 tons worth of natural uranium to be directly stashed in submarines initially.
> 
> The added problem is that the Uranium used up in these PWR reactors will have high levels of Pu240 and hence not fit to be made into Pu239 plutonium bombs, unlike the PHWR ones in Kahuta. So, diverting large quantity of uranium may not be possible without shutting down nuclear bomb manufacturing.
> 
> Price is never the problem as long as the items are produced in the country. Since none is willing to give nuclear technology, Pakistan will have to get its own reactors and other items. So, the cost will be internal only. Uranium quantity is the main issue that minor Uranium producers like Pakistan will face.


A nuclear sub does not use natural uranium at least 20% enriched uranium natural uranium contains about .7 that is point seven % u235
3 bombs worth about 60 to 70 kg of u235 is enough for about 25 year of operation you calculations are for a small natural uranium candu type reactor eg cirus kushab 1 etc.
Please first learn somthing about the subject.
50 to 60 tons of u235 will destroy a whole country the critical mass of u235 is 52kg this is about 1200 critical masses. 

I may be wrong though. Because i know very little about marine nuclear propulsion

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## Vijyes Yechury

Fawadqasim1 said:


> A nuclear sub does not use natural uranium at least 20% enriched uranium natural uranium contains about .7 that is point seven % u235
> 3 bombs worth about 60 to 70 kg of u235 is enough for about 25 year of operation you calculations are for a small natural uranium candu type reactor eg cirus kushab 1 etc.
> Please first learn somthing about the subject.
> 50 to 60 tons of u235 will destroy a whole country the critical mass of u235 is 52kg this is about 1200 critical masses.
> 
> I may be wrong though. Because i know very little about marine nuclear propulsion



I am speaking of natural uranium with 0.71% U235, not enriched uranium. In terms of enriched uranium, the SSN annual requirement will be about 80-100kg of 40% enriched Uranium which has 32-40kg of U235 (enrichment 40%). This amounts to roughly 4-6 tons of natural uranium annually with each ton having 7.1kg U235. For SSBN, you can reduce it to half.

Mathematically:
*Annual* consumption of :
SSN -- *40% enriched 90kg* -- 0.4x90 = *36kg U235* -- 36/7.1 = ~ roughly, *5ton natural Uranium*
SSBN-- *40% enriched 45kg* -- 0.4x45 = *18kg U235* -- 18/7.1 = ~ roughly, *2.5ton natural Uranium*

One time loading of Uranium = *20 years* worth consumption. So,
SSN = 5x20years = *100ton natural Uranium *--- 90x20 = *1.8ton 40% enriched Uranium*
SSBN = 2.55x20years = *50ton natural Uranium* --- 45x20 = *0.9ton 40% enriched Uranium*

I was telling you in natural uranium terms so that it will be easy for you to make a comparison of Pakistani annual Uranium mining of 30-40tons to the requirement of 100ton per SSN. Since mined Uranium is natural Uranium, I chose to convert the enriched uranium requirement to natural uranium equivalent. For 1 SSN submarine, Pakistan will need 2.5-3 years worth of mined Uranium.

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## Fawadqasim1

Vijyes Yechury said:


> I am speaking of natural uranium with 0.71% U235, not enriched uranium. In terms of enriched uranium, the SSN annual requirement will be about 80-100kg of 40% enriched Uranium which has 32-40kg of U235 (enrichment 40%). This amounts to roughly 4-6 tons of natural uranium annually with each ton having 7.1kg U235. For SSBN, you can reduce it to half.
> 
> Mathematically:
> *Annual* consumption of :
> SSN -- *40% enriched 90kg* -- 0.4x90 = *36kg U235* -- 36/7.1 = ~ roughly, *5ton natural Uranium*
> SSBN-- *40% enriched 45kg* -- 0.4x45 = *18kg U235* -- 18/7.1 = ~ roughly, *2.5ton natural Uranium*
> 
> One time loading of Uranium = *20 years* worth consumption. So,
> SSN = 5x20years = *100ton natural Uranium *--- 90x20 = *1.8ton 40% enriched Uranium*
> SSBN = 2.55x20years = *50ton natural Uranium* --- 45x20 = *0.9ton 40% enriched Uranium*
> 
> I was telling you in natural uranium terms so that it will be easy for you to make a comparison of Pakistani annual Uranium mining of 30-40tons to the requirement of 100ton per SSN. Since mined Uranium is natural Uranium, I chose to convert the enriched uranium requirement to natural uranium equivalent. For 1 SSN submarine, Pakistan will need 2.5-3 years worth of mined Uranium.


As i have told you we can mine alot more if we want to we can mine and refine tones per day we have
Large reserves of uranium and we have our own enrichment technology so don't worry. That will not be the problem. The problem is funds for such operations.

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## LKJ86

S26T for Thailand

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## Dazzler

Acquisition / Construction of HANGOR Class Submarines to begin in 2019

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## Areesh

Dazzler said:


> Acquisition / Construction of HANGOR Class Submarines to begin in 2019



More likely construction


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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

china ship /sub builder are over loaded 
type 096 nuke sub is a hard work to do.


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## GriffinsRule

*Pakistan Navy modernises Submarine capabilities*

Pakistan has an enduring interest in boosting its submarine fleet capabilities to keep pace with the Indian Navy, a desire that has been further stoked by the first completed patrol of its rival’s 6,000 tonne nuclear-attack submarine INS Arihant in early November.

The Pakistani Navy presently operates five diesel-electric patrol submarines, a number which is considered to fall short of the service’s requirements. The submarine fleet readiness is also of concern, as the two Hashmat-class boats are nearly 40 years old and any one of the three Khalid (Agosta) class is expected to be sidelined for a major refit at any time until 2021.

However, the future appears to be much brighter with Pakistan acquiring eight Chinese-made S20 diesel-electric submarines based on the Yuan-class (Type 039A-series) design, with the first four boats to be built by China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) and deliveries commencing to the Pakistan Navy from 2022. The remainder will be built in Pakistan by the Karachi Shipbuilding and Engineering Works (KSEW), with the boats in service by around 2028..

In terms of general appearance, the S20 design exhibits some of the physical features of the Russian Kilo-class design including a teardrop-shaped hull with a distinctive ‘hump’ and large fin, although the stern resembles the earlier Song (Type 039)-class. However, it is believed that the S20 lacks many of the advanced features of the Type-039A, although CSIC stands ready to incorporate options should there be a request.

According to CSIC, the S20 platforms are fully indigenous designs that exploit the company’s experience from developing the Yuan-class submarines, which were first launched at its Wuchang Shipyard in Wuhan in May 2004. These are expected to cost between $500-600 million each, with associated technology transfer as well as the establishment of a submarine training centre at KSEW.

Meanwhile Turkey’s STM has been contracted to perform modernisation work on the Khalid-class submarines, with updates including a new periscope and optronic mast, as well as a SharpEye Doppler radar.


https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2018/11/pakistan-navy-modernises-submarine-capabilities/


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## FuturePAF

The PN should step back from the current designs and look again at what is about to be fielded among the medium powers in the larger region.

The PN needs Subs that will serve for the next 40 years. Besides the Indian Navy's Scorpenes and SSBNs, the Australians are about to field the long endurance Shortfin Barracuda Class in a decades time, and the A26 From Saab will field 3 VLS tubes.

The standard A26 will be about the same tonnage as the subs Pakistan plans to get from China. The added tonnage for the 3 VLS tubes will be about 500 tons.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DABCMuMUMAAyuJz?format=jpg&name=large
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/swe_subscompare940.jpg?w=625

A Few months ago, here on PDF; we had this topic
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...clear-power-plant-a-third-way-forward.567489/
================
We need Qualitative Advantages, not just matching with current tech but fielding fewer numbers
we should look to add atleast three VLS tubes as in the A26 VL from SAAB
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....ww-hisutton-com-2018-08-21-18-38-45.jpg?w=625

It will give each sub Second Strike Capability (with a SLBM or SLCM or ASBM to knock out carriers blockading Karachi) as well as advanced antiship capabilities with long range Anti-Ship cruise missiles or even Ramjet CX-1 missiles.

The Shortfin Barracuda Should be studied because it is conventionally powered but claims to allow 70-90 days at sea submerged.

Also the Chinese "Third Way" Mini reactor may give the added leaverage to stay out longer or go faster when needed, or design in a pump jet to maximize noise reduction.
=============
the point is for 500-600 million dollar each, we should push to get the best tech we can put together as we are doing for the air force and the army.

We owe it to the sailors who will man these vessels and the people of Pakistan who are counting on it when deterrence is badly needed in our region.


Some more pictures of the A26
https://www.ptisidiastima.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Swe_A26_poster.jpg
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/saab_kockums_modelrange.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DABCMudVYAATY9T?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJBv7w2XoAAFer_.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/a26-ngu-image4.jpg

Some Pictures and Data on the Shortfin Barracuda
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zmDvvpSKa...N_SNA_French_Navy_Marine_Nationale_DCNS_1.jpg
https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/images/Maritime/DCNS-Shortfin-Barracuda-closeup.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenc...arine#Shortfin_Barracuda_conventional_variant
https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/maritime-antisub/1383-uncertainty-over-future-submarine-design





P.S. Perfecting a Design like this; with a small Nuclear Reactor as supplement to an Advanced long Endurance AIP; and large VLS Tubes. Pakistan can then make plans IF need be, to scale up the design and build SSBNs; Each with at least 6 VLS tubes each with 2500km missiles like the JL-1A but with 3 MIRV per missile; and then you have 18 warheads per sub and a modern Second Strike capability. With one on Constant patrol; you really keep the Indians and their ASW tied down.

Here is some data on the costs of Submarines
http://nationsdawnofanera.weebly.com/submarines.html

If Pakistan can increase its budget from 5 Billion to 8 Billion It can get alot more for its money. The A26 is expected to cost 750 Million. If You add in the cost of the 3 VLS tubes, the large AIP System, and possibly the Nuclear Supplement you may be able to get 8 Subs at an average price of $1 Billion Each.

From $5 to 8 Billion; it could be a world of difference.

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## Gryphon

*Navy to get eight new submarines*

By Salman Siddiqui
Published: December 1, 2018





_PHOTO: REUTERS_

KARACHI: Pakistan in collaboration with China will manufacture eight submarines for its maritime force.

*“The production will start in one to one-and-a-half-year time,” said Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works Project Director Commodore M Jahanzeb Ahsan at the IDEAS 2018, a four-day long event held at the Karachi Expo Centre.*

“Half of the eight submarines of advanced version will be developed in China while the other half in Pakistan,” said Commodore Ahsan.
Pakistan and China developed understanding for the manufacturing of the submarines sometime in 2011, he said.

The top three countries with the highest number of submarines in the world are; North Korea with 86, China 73 and US 66, according to www.globalfirepower.com.

Navy to get eight new submarines | tribune.com.pk

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Official specs @Gryphon

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## Ali_Baba

A lot of money for not a lot of submarine. I was expecting something bigger and more capable given how much we are paying. More worrying, given that they are meant to form part of the 2nd strike capability for Pakistan nuclear deterrent... I was expecting a derivative of the Yuan class(bigger), not smaller... lets see.

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Official specs @Gryphon



Got specs of PN Milgem/Type 054A? Any word on F-22P MLU?


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## ziaulislam

Ali_Baba said:


> A lot of money for not a lot of submarine. I was expecting something bigger and more capable given how much we are paying. More worrying, given that they are meant to form part of the 2nd strike capability for Pakistan nuclear deterrent... I was expecting a derivative of the Yuan class(bigger), not smaller... lets see.


bigger than agosta 90b..pretty much what we expected


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## monitor

ziaulislam said:


> bigger than agosta 90b..pretty much what we expected




No major improvement it's almost same as Pakistani version agusta 90B .

2,050 long tons (2,083 t) submerged (Pakistan)
Length:

67 m (219 ft 10 in) (France, Spain)
*76 m (249 ft 4 in) (Pakistan)*
Beam: 6 m (19 ft 8 in)
Speed:

12 knots (22 km/h; 14 mph) surfaced


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## ziaulislam

monitor said:


> No major improvement it's almost same as Pakistani version agusta 90B .
> 
> 2,050 long tons (2,083 t) submerged (Pakistan)
> Length:
> 
> 67 m (219 ft 10 in) (France, Spain)
> *76 m (249 ft 4 in) (Pakistan)*
> Beam: 6 m (19 ft 8 in)
> Speed:
> 
> 12 knots (22 km/h; 14 mph) surfaced


2800 tones is 40% larger than 2000 tones..Pakistan wanted an agosta sized but modern sub

internals will be generation ahead of anything agosta has..it will also feature the nuclear babur as the third arm of nuc deterance..

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## khanasifm

monitor said:


> No major improvement it's almost same as Pakistani version agusta 90B .
> 
> 2,050 long tons (2,083 t) submerged (Pakistan)
> Length:
> 
> 67 m (219 ft 10 in) (France, Spain)
> *76 m (249 ft 4 in) (Pakistan)*
> Beam: 6 m (19 ft 8 in)
> Speed:
> 
> 12 knots (22 km/h; 14 mph) surfaced



2800tons vs ~2000 tons and 4 torpedo tubes vs 6 is a big difference plus sub launch cruise missile with range ~300 km is big jump

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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

khanasifm said:


> 2800tons vs ~2000 tons and 4 torpedo tubes vs 6 is a big difference plus sub launch cruise missile with range ~300 km is big jump


As military chief, you should make the best choice in the limited resources, and should not be blindly complaining this and that! 
f you have a $100 billion military budget, you can buy F35 as long as the Americans are willing to sell.

Today's "Made in China" is no longer "Made in China" 20 years ago. As long as you can afford it, you can get the highest quality "Made in China" in the world!
Why do you think that after buying 49 VT-4 tanks, Thailand is shocked by the quality of China and wants to order an additional 101 units, even though the VT-4 tank is priced at $5.8 million？！

2）Why: 
Iraq continues to order additional Chinese Rainbow CH drones and drone ammunition; 
Saudi Arabia buys 300 Chinese CH drones and purchases production lines; 
Egypt orders additional Chinese pterosaur Wing Loong drones? !

Not to mention that Myanmar, Nigeria and Iran have already purchased / or intend to purchase the JF17/FC1 fighter jet jointly developed by China and Pakistan!

Look at China's mobile phone Huawei Mate 20 Pro to know: China's manufacturing is moving to the highest level in the world!

If you still feel that the quality of "Made in China" is not good, then I can only say that the only reason is because you are poor or not that rich.

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## BHarwana

Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA said:


> As military chief, you should make the best choice in the limited resources, and should not be blindly complaining this and that!
> f you have a $100 billion military budget, you can buy F35 as long as the Americans are willing to sell.
> 
> Today's "Made in China" is no longer "Made in China" 20 years ago. As long as you can afford it, you can get the highest quality "Made in China" in the world!
> Why do you think that after buying 49 VT-4 tanks, Thailand is shocked by the quality of China and wants to order an additional 101 units, even though the VT-4 tank is priced at $5.8 million？！



It is not about money when you are buying a sub marine. Pakistan is buying 8 submarines which are diesel electric so it definitely can afford 4 nuclear subs.
What fan boys don't hear understand is diesel electric are more silent than nuclear one and have better rate of infiltration for a strike. Regarding refueling nuclear subs don't need refueling but they need food so they also have to surface.

Moving on to how good are these subs. The function of a submarine is not only to be a nuclear deterrent but there are many other roles like anti-surface ship operation. Hunter killer operations surveillance and so on. We have no details of internal functions of these subs. 

The quality of a sub is not dependent on its size but how silent it is.

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## Beast

BHarwana said:


> Regarding refueling nuclear subs don't need refueling but they need food so they also have to surface.


Same as missile and torpedo that need re-ammo once all fired up for SSN. They still need to surface and restock.

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## BHarwana

Beast said:


> Same as missile and torpedo that need re-ammo once all fired up for SSN. They still need to surface and restock.



Yes so buying nuclear submarines is pointless at max 2 nuclear sub are enough for one country for deterrence rest you need diesel electric for most of missions.

For example f we want to destroy Visakhapatnam with a sub what will you chose? Obviously a diesel electric because it is a pain in @ss to detect and it can go in execute and exit and has enough endurance. If you want to destroy a naval battle group again you will need diesel electric subs. Nuclear powered just sit in ocean dull to only perform territorial strikes they are huge and difficult to maneuver and slow.

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## Beast

BHarwana said:


> Yes so buying nuclear submarines is pointless at max 2 nuclear sub are enough for one country for deterrence rest you need diesel electric for most of missions.
> 
> For example f we want to destroy Visakhapatnam with a sub what will you chose? Obviously a diesel electric because it is a pain in @ss to detect and it can go in execute and exit and has enough endurance. If you want to destroy a naval battle group again you will need diesel electric subs. Nuclear powered just sit in ocean dull to only perform territorial strikes they are huge and difficult to maneuver and slow.


These applies to aircraft carrier or warship too... Nuclear reactor is nice, no need refuel but carrier has planes that need fuel to run and ammo to used. Sailors need food to eat. Once all those used up, you need to replenish. It is average, every 30 days will need these kind of replenishment. It the war is intense and you used up your ammo fast, will need replenishment for ammo every week.


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## BHarwana

Beast said:


> These applies to aircraft carrier or warship too... Nuclear reactor is nice, no need refuel but carrier has planes that need fuel to run and ammo to used. Sailors need food to eat. Once all those used up, you need to replenish. It is average, every 30 days will need these kind of replenishment. It the war is intense and you used up your ammo fast, will need replenishment for ammo every week.



Yes so to make it simple if you are using a nuclear sub you are sacrificing a lot of stealth for just few days more of endurance. Where as if you are using a diesel electric you pop in the middle of a battle group and scare the shit out of enemy with out firing a single bullet. A single diesel electric sub with nuclear capable cruise missiles is a bigger threat than nuclear sub with ballistic missiles. Because first you cannot detect a diesel electric sub secondly you cannot detect a sea skimming and land hugging cruise missile. You will only know something you after you are dead.

Resupply at sea was the biggest issue of world war 2 and it still is the biggest issue.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> Got specs of PN Milgem/Type 054A? Any word on F-22P MLU?


The PN hasn't released its MILGEM build, but it's the Ada with different weapons. 

However, 'different' from the Turkish Navy's current Ada Corvettes, Turkey is proposing newer weapons meant for the I-Class (AShM, ASW). 

Type 054A will be like the PLAN, but with export systems (incl.OTHR). 

No word on F-22P MLU.

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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

Nuclear submarines are generally equiped with nukes,they do not need to be re ammo,once they fired,dozens of millions people would be wiped out from existence.


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## The Accountant

Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA said:


> Nuclear submarines are generally equiped with nukes,they do not need to be re ammo,once they fired,dozens of millions people would be wiped out from existence.


What are you smoking man ? So if they are only for nuclear strike then what is there role in conventional strike and what the hell are doing in CBG ... i thought there job in CBG is to protect from under watwr threat which requires tarpedos and not nukes ...


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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

The Accountant said:


> What are you smoking man ? So if they are only for nuclear strike then what is there role in conventional strike and what the hell are doing in CBG ... i thought there job in CBG is to protect from under watwr threat which requires tarpedos and not nukes ...


You are talking about tactical nuclrar submarine not strategic nuclear submarine.
They have different roles!


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## The Accountant

Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA said:


> You are talking about tactical nuclrar submarine not strategic nuclear submarine.
> They have different roles!


No i am talking about all nuclear subs as comparision here is diesel electric v/s nuclear ... its you who is comparing it incorrectly with strategic role and most importantly its the role of sub and not classification ... can u please name a sub having nukes only ?


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## Muhammad Omar

Gryphon said:


> *Navy to get eight new submarines*
> 
> By Salman Siddiqui
> Published: December 1, 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _PHOTO: REUTERS_
> 
> KARACHI: Pakistan in collaboration with China will manufacture eight submarines for its maritime force.
> 
> *“The production will start in one to one-and-a-half-year time,” said Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works Project Director Commodore M Jahanzeb Ahsan at the IDEAS 2018, a four-day long event held at the Karachi Expo Centre.*
> 
> “Half of the eight submarines of advanced version will be developed in China while the other half in Pakistan,” said Commodore Ahsan.
> Pakistan and China developed understanding for the manufacturing of the submarines sometime in 2011, he said.
> 
> The top three countries with the highest number of submarines in the world are; North Korea with 86, China 73 and US 66, according to www.globalfirepower.com.
> 
> Navy to get eight new submarines | tribune.com.pk


@Goku-kun here it is

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## Goku-kun

Muhammad Omar said:


> @Goku-kun here it is


Thanks.Type 039B but are being delivered late? or We will be getting them one-by-one? i.e: when 1st complete it will be delivered than 2nd constructed than given and so on or they will deliver set of 4 all-together.


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## Muhammad Omar

Goku-kun said:


> Thanks.Type 039B but are being delivered late.We will be getting them one-by-one i.e: when 1st complete it will be delivered than 2nd constructed than given and son on or they will deliver set of 4 all-together.


Navy will get first one in 2022 and No.8 in 2028


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## Pakistansdefender

I was wondering what happened to these submarines.


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## Sulman Badshah

Pakistansdefender said:


> I was wondering what happened to these submarines.


first delivery in 2022 and all will be completed around 2028


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## Pakistansdefender

Sulman Badshah said:


> first delivery in 2022 and all will be completed around 2028


Are these nuclear.....?


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## Sulman Badshah

Pakistansdefender said:


> Are these nuclear.....?


Diesel Electric


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## Bratva

MODP 2016-2017

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## Sulman Badshah

Bratva said:


> MODP 2016-2017
> 
> View attachment 526183


First to be handed over in 2022 while all will be delivered till 2028

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## LKJ86



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## ARMalik

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 529009



This is quite an elegant looking Sub.


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## LKJ86

ARMalik said:


> This is quite an elegant looking Sub.


PN will get similar ones.

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## aziqbal

no doubt when first steel is cut we will know about it

with standard Chinese break neck speed we can expect them to be online quickly after 2022

I mean look how long it took for the Agostas from France, signed in 1992 and last commission was 2006

submarines take time big engineering challenge

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## MastanKhan

Goku-kun said:


> Thanks.Type 039B but are being delivered late? or We will be getting them one-by-one? i.e: when 1st complete it will be delivered than 2nd constructed than given and so on or they will deliver set of 4 all-together.



Hi,

That is a very interesting question---. The subs are built in sequence---. When the first sub is manufactured and put thru its paces---it is also being tested for any issues to any modifications that might be needed for the upcoming subs---.

Now it could be possible / very likely that the EW package on the last 4 subs maybe much more advanced than that of the first 4 subs---the first 4 subs would be guaranteed pretty much exact package---.

But the most important part is the crew---you need a minimum of 2 set of crews for each sub for the purpose of rotation---.

It is as tedious to prepare a crew ready to operate the sub as much as it is to build the sub---. Then you also need to have techs on the shore and servicing capabilities as well---.

So you start building them even before you get the first sub---by the time your first sub is 80% finished---your crew is pretty much ready to operate the sub---. And then you put the sub thru its paces and the crew thru its paces and both get used to each other and learn to operate---.

And while you are doing that---your second sub is being built as well and you also are preparing a crew to operate the second sub as well---and so on---.

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## GriffinsRule

aziqbal said:


> no doubt when first steel is cut we will know about it
> 
> with standard Chinese break neck speed we can expect them to be online quickly after 2022
> 
> I mean look how long it took for the Agostas from France, signed in 1992 and last commission was 2006
> 
> submarines take time big engineering challenge



The contract was actually signed in Sept 1994. It took France 3.5 years to build the first one. PNS Khalid was laid down in July 1995 and launched for sea trials in December 1998. Had they made the other 2 as well, they would have been inducted much earlier but as Pakistan was involved in the construction of the other two, the time frames were stretched, as would be expected.

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## maverick1977

GriffinsRule said:


> The contract was actually signed in Sept 1994. It took France 3.5 years to build the first one. PNS Khalid was laid down in July 1995 and launched for sea trials in December 1998. Had they made the other 2 as well, they would have been inducted much earlier but as Pakistan was involved in the construction of the other two, the time frames were stretched, as would be expected.



Get ready for SLBM capability with these subs. Vertical launch tubes are most likely to be a part of this sub... can someone share armament details ? Is this going to be an answer to Indian SLBM sub ?

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## ziaulislam

maverick1977 said:


> Get ready for SLBM capability with these subs. Vertical launch tubes are most likely to be a part of this sub... can someone share armament details ? Is this going to be an answer to Indian SLBM sub ?


no SLBM, less likley that any vertical tubes.
seems its going to be SLCM babur

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## maverick1977

ziaulislam said:


> no SLBM, less likley that any vertical tubes.
> seems its going to be SLCM babur



SLCM can be launched through vertical tubes of torpedo tubes? Do we know if this is a attack submarine model with dozen or more cruise missiles with MIRV ?


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## ziaulislam

maverick1977 said:


> SLCM can be launched through vertical tubes of torpedo tubes? Do we know if this is a attack submarine model with dozen or more cruise missiles with MIRV ?







this is how its launched under water but its not Surface to air missle but surface to surface




----------------
cruise missiles never leave atmosphere so there is no such thing as multiple reentry vehicles!

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## maverick1977

ziaulislam said:


> this is how its launched under water but its not Surface to air missle but surface to surface
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------
> cruise missiles never leave atmosphere so there is no such thing as multiple reentry vehicles!



Thank you zia! So Pakistan is expecting tube launched cruise missile and no SLBM capability with these 8 subs. 
Nuke subs should be on the radar of PN ...


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## ziaulislam

maverick1977 said:


> Thank you zia! So Pakistan is expecting tube launched cruise missile and no SLBM capability with these 8 subs.
> Nuke subs should be on the radar of PN ...


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## ziaulislam

question is what will be tonnage 2800? 3800? 
second how versatile will they be..? will we have multi role vertical launching system like recent french subs/design?
third what is the propulsion system, how quiet will it be? i assume pump jet is out of question in such a small sub


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## Nasr

ziaulislam said:


> question is what will be tonnage 2800? 3800?
> second how versatile will they be..? will we have multi role vertical launching system like recent french subs/design?
> third what is the propulsion system, how quiet will it be? i assume pump jet is out of question in such a small sub



Missile launch would be carried out via torpedo tubes. VLS on submarines in Pakistan Navy is a good few years away. The idea is to have sub launch capability for cruise missiles, with the intent to enhance their ranges and warhead weight capacity. As for pump jets, that entirely depends on whether this particular variant submarine is inclusive of such a propulsion system. It is more than likely that it isn't. We shall have to wait and see.


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## LKJ86



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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 533378


translation .... ???


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## LKJ86

HRK said:


> translation .... ???


The evolution of Type 039


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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> The evolution of Type 039


Thnx and what those number pointers are indicating ...???


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## maverick1977

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 533378



No vertical launch option tubes ?


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## LKJ86

HRK said:


> what those number pointers are indicating ...???


The places from which changes are made.



maverick1977 said:


> No vertical launch option tubes ?


There are no vertical launch tubes.

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## syed_yusuf

Type 39B looks a whole lot different than Type 39. is there really a lineage?


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## LKJ86

syed_yusuf said:


> Type 39B looks a whole lot different than Type 39. is there really a lineage?


Do you know the differences between Type 052 DDG and Type 052C/D DDG?

Type 052 DDG(about 4200 tons)





Type 052D DDG(about 7000 tons)

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## syed_yusuf

LKJ86 said:


> Do you know the differences between Type 052 DDG and Type 052C/D DDG?
> 
> Type 052 DDG(about 4200 tons)
> View attachment 533414
> 
> 
> Type 052D DDG(about 7000 tons)
> View attachment 533415


 exactly - why to use the same number when they are totally different and of they are same then PN is dot on to use type54p as f-22 batch II


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## Super Falcon

should have ordered four of these and 4 U 214 would have balanced the technological capabilities of subs

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## syed_yusuf

Super Falcon said:


> should have ordered four of these and 4 U 214 would have balanced the technological capabilities of subs



so you are saying that these subs are technologically inferior to U214? and if so Why?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Super Falcon said:


> should have ordered four of these and 4 U 214 would have balanced the technological capabilities of subs


Pak can participate in Turkey's MILDEN (Milli Denizalti - National Submarine) project!!! Due to the local manufacturing of the German boats (_Reis_ class), their influence can't be ruled out.,...

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## syed_yusuf

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 533378


so which one is PN going for is it a version of 39B?


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## Aamir Hussain

LKJ86 said:


> The places from which changes are made.
> 
> 
> There are no vertical launch tubes.



Can you please enlighten us on the changes made number wise from Type 39 to Type 39B. That would greatly help the members here appreciate the extent of evolution of the 39 Platform.

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## Muhammad Omar

Type-039B Submarine

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## Cool_Soldier

Hope to see these defender subs soon in PAK Navy.

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## dBSPL

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Pak can participate in Turkey's MILDEN (Milli Denizalti - National Submarine) project!!! Due to the local manufacturing of the German boats (_Reis_ class), their influence can't be ruled out.,...



MILDEN is not yet mature enough. Also in parallel, a different and not tried yet propulsion system is being worked on. The 1st MILDEN submarine may have a range of 2027-2028, perhaps even 2030.

I don't think the Pakistan Navy has a choice that will wait so long. China offers a package that has already been tested and solved all engineering issues. However, there is a possibility of association with mini-platforms such as SDV or unmanned systems. We'll wait and see.

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## Ali_Baba

Muhammad Omar said:


> @Goku-kun here it is



As impressive as those Subs may look, at $5billion for the programme, they are simply too too expensive relative to what we are getting. 8 Subs for $5billion is $625 per sub. Expensive for a chinese sub even when you factor in possible "custom changes" and "Transfer of Tech" and "new infrastructure" to build the subs locally.

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## LKJ86

Ali_Baba said:


> As impressive as those Subs may look, at $5billion for the programme, they are simply too too expensive relative to what we are getting. 8 Subs for $5billion is $625 per sub. Expensive for a chinese sub even when you factor in possible "custom changes" and "Transfer of Tech" and "new infrastructure" to build the subs locally.


Why do think that China's weapons are always low-cost?

And VT-4 is more expensive than T-90S.


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## syed_yusuf

Ali_Baba said:


> As impressive as those Subs may look, at $5billion for the programme, they are simply too too expensive relative to what we are getting. 8 Subs for $5billion is $625 per sub. Expensive for a chinese sub even when you factor in possible "custom changes" and "Transfer of Tech" and "new infrastructure" to build the subs locally.



5 billion USD not only includes subs but frigates and other patrol ships pmsa, survey ships and other items. Beside these subs are customized for PN. and do TOT for subs and other platform. Hangoor class short of nuclear engine is one of its kind. It will keep enemy at Bay in high seas fir next 20 + years

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ali_Baba said:


> As impressive as those Subs may look, at $5billion for the programme, they are simply too too expensive relative to what we are getting. 8 Subs for $5billion is $625 per sub. Expensive for a chinese sub even when you factor in possible "custom changes" and "Transfer of Tech" and "new infrastructure" to build the subs locally.


I don't think the submarines cost $4-5 bn. That price came from the Financial Times via sources, but hasn't been corroborated. Plus, as mentioned above, it could also be a package including frigates and patrol boats.

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## aziqbal

Currently Pakistan cannot conduct continuous at sea deterrence 

Especially if we get submarines carrying nuclear capable cruise missiles 

Our missions will be hunter killer and also sea deterenace 

Add to that usual duties 

Our 8 units from China should therefore be mixed between hunter killer and at sea deterrnace

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## The Eagle



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## Pakistani Fighter

Are these the quietest subs in South Asia?


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## ali_raza

some special effects are part of deal


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## Khaqan Humayun

jetstar said:


> *Yes this is a great achievements more then others new generation submarine
> but now we need Nuclear Submarine*



Pakistan does not have any such need of nuke-sub, we have Babur cruise missile it can carry nuke warhead. Our Navy can fire it from ship & from Submarine.
A nuke-sub is every expensive weapon, and maintenance is too much expensive too.
Pakistan is very lucky that we have nuke-missile it fill the gap of nuke-sub.

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## TOTUU

*AIP*




Nuclear

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## ziaulislam

Ali_Baba said:


> As impressive as those Subs may look, at $5billion for the programme, they are simply too too expensive relative to what we are getting. 8 Subs for $5billion is $625 per sub. Expensive for a chinese sub even when you factor in possible "custom changes" and "Transfer of Tech" and "new infrastructure" to build the subs locally.


The intial speculated value was 1.6b dollars which make sense with respect to Thailand deal
I doubt thw 5b$ rumors are accurate


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## MIRauf

PN needs SSNs, AIP Subs are good but they lack speed to chase down targets. SSN will give PN more flexibility ( deployment distance, weapon load, submerged duration, multi mission capability to name a few. )

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## Keysersoze

MIRauf said:


> PN needs SSNs, AIP Subs are good but they lack speed to chase down targets. SSN will give PN more flexibility ( deployment distance, weapon load, submerged duration, multi mission capability to name a few. )


Also a much bigger hole in the budget
It's easy to have good ideas. It's harder to fund them...

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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## monitor

on this Day June 2 
PNS Hangor and its victim INS Khukri. @*FauteuilColbert* @*FPSchazly* @*OZD_CDE* @*subvet88* @*Jimmyfish2019* @*Senjo41A* @*shtatsky_ru* @*JivTurky* @*WolfSonar* @*dressler_w*

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## Sunny4pak

*Pak Navy's Yuan Class Submarines Explained.*

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## Keysersoze

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Pakistan does not have any such need of nuke-sub, we have Babur cruise missile it can carry nuke warhead. Our Navy can fire it from ship & from Submarine.
> A nuke-sub is every expensive weapon, and maintenance is too much expensive too.
> Pakistan is very lucky that we have nuke-missile it fill the gap of nuke-sub.


Nuclear subs have longer endurance which helps if you are trying to have another option for nuclear deterence as subs are harder to find.


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## Safriz

Keysersoze said:


> Nuclear subs have longer endurance which helps if you are trying to have another option for nuclear deterence as subs are harder to find.


And cost bucket loads of money to keep them running.
I know about UK. 
Here government spends 2 billion GBP annually to keep the nuclear submarines running.


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## Keysersoze

شاھین میزایل said:


> And cost bucket loads of money to keep them running.
> I know about UK.
> Here government spends 2 billion GBP annually to keep the nuclear submarines running.


I am not saying it is financially viable. merely why you would want one. The cost you stated is just for the 4 SSBN's and the trident system. doesn't include the SSN's


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## The Accountant

Keysersoze said:


> Nuclear subs have longer endurance which helps if you are trying to have another option for nuclear deterence as subs are harder to find.


Nuclear submarine are easy to detect

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## Tamiyah

The Accountant said:


> Nuclear submarine are easy to detect


Because of their sound right?

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## The Accountant

Tamiyah said:


> Because of their sound right?


Yup ...

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## Keysersoze

The Accountant said:


> Nuclear submarine are easy to detect


If they were no one would use them.....



The Accountant said:


> Yup ...


A diesel is quieter but has it's own set if weaknesses.

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## The Accountant

Keysersoze said:


> If they were no one would use them.....
> 
> 
> A diesel is quieter but has it's own set if weaknesses.



There are 2 main objectives of nuclear submarines ... to protect aircraft carriers ... air craft carriers remains in mid oceans for months and they need protection from under water threat ... nuclear submarines do not need to resurface for refuelling and there is also no need to be afraid of giving away the location as they have protection from air and sea threats and everybody knows that there r subs with the CBG hence they r more suited for carier battle group ...

Second main objective that can be obtained by a nuclear sub only is the range ... US cannot monitor south china sea with a convential sub ... 

In case of Pakistan we dont have a carrier battle group and as of now we need to strike our next door neighbour only ... hence nuclear sub might be necessity for US russia china and india but they r not a necessity for us ...

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## MIRauf

SSN have speed that SSK w/AIP can't match. To get to the Bay of Bengal and to threaten Eastern India with second strike ( Cruise Missiles ) you will need the speed of SSN or have enough SSK to station one there on rotating bases. Stationing a SSK in the Bay of Bengal will mean that either you have third country where it could refuel and rest or be deployed for short duration.

PN will need about 18 SSKs, 11/12 for Pak Maritime, Pak EEZ and Western India and about 5/6 for Western India. One on Station in Bay of Bengal, one in transition to and one in transition back, other 2/3 likely in maintenance, upgrade, rest. SSK with 40 odd day endurance will take about week or more to get to the Bay of Bengal and likely would be detected and shadowed as it will need to snorkel to recharge it batteries.

PS: Please someone don't say that we can use AIP, it will take you month to get to the Bay of Bengal, you will run out of rations or close to it before you get to the station. Please don't say we don't need to project our power in the Bay of Bengal as we have ICBM or Cruise Missiles. I am taking about SSN and its second Strike capability and why PN should have it, needs it.

Current Location: Groton CT. US, Submarine Capital of the world. Homeport to 16 Attack Submarines.

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## Quwa

MIRauf said:


> SSN have speed that SSK w/AIP can't match. To get to the Bay of Bengal and to threaten Eastern India with second strike ( Cruise Missiles ) you will need the speed of SSN or have enough SSK to station one there on rotating bases. Stationing a SSK in the Bay of Bengal will mean that either you have third country where it could refuel and rest or be deployed for short duration.
> 
> PN will need about 18 SSKs, 11/12 for Pak Maritime, Pak EEZ and Western India and about 5/6 for Western India. One on Station in Bay of Bengal, one in transition to and one in transition back, other 2/3 likely in maintenance, upgrade, rest. SSK with 40 odd day endurance will take about week or more to get to the Bay of Bengal and likely would be detected and shadowed as it will need to snorkel to recharge it batteries.
> 
> PS: Please someone don't say that we can use AIP, it will take you month to get to the Bay of Bengal, you will run out of rations or close to it before you get to the station. Please don't say we don't need to project our power in the Bay of Bengal as we have ICBM or Cruise Missiles. I am taking about SSN and its second Strike capability and why PN should have it, needs it.
> 
> Current Location: Groton CT. US, Submarine Capital of the world. Homeport to 16 Attack Submarines.


You're right. AIP is about staying out long and quiet, so for speed and response, SSNs make sense. I don't think the PN would disagree, but the main constraints are probably technical, e.g., safety, reliability, etc.

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## Cookie Monster

The Accountant said:


> There are 2 main objectives of nuclear submarines ... to protect aircraft carriers ... air craft carriers remains in mid oceans for months and they need protection from under water threat ... nuclear submarines do not need to resurface for refuelling and there is also no need to be afraid of giving away the location as they have protection from air and sea threats and everybody knows that there r subs with the CBG hence they r more suited for carier battle group ...
> 
> Second main objective that can be obtained by a nuclear sub only is the range ... US cannot monitor south china sea with a convential sub ...
> 
> In case of Pakistan we dont have a carrier battle group and as of now we need to strike our next door neighbour only ... hence nuclear sub might be necessity for US russia china and india but they r not a necessity for us ...


While they are not a necessity bcuz the enemy is right next door...I still think Pak should plan on eventually having boomers.

Not just the nuclear subs but also develop ICBMs with MIRV capability. Nuclear tipped ICBMs with MIRV aboard a nuclear submarine is what will give Pak a true second strike capability. It would GUARANTEE without a doubt that in any event(including that of preemptive nuclear strike on Pak by India to neutralize Pak's landbased nuclear weapons) Pak will be able to retaliate and nuke India from any part of the world.

A nuclear sub can hide for months...away from the eyes and reach of IN assets. This will ensure that no scenario exists where India can win...and hopefully this threat of MAD(with 100% reliability) will prevent wars in the future.

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## Khafee

Cookie Monster said:


> While they are not a necessity bcuz the enemy is right next door..*.I still think Pak should plan on eventually having boomers.*
> 
> Not just the nuclear subs but also develop ICBMs with MIRV capability. Nuclear tipped ICBMs with MIRV aboard a nuclear submarine is what will give Pak a true second strike capability. It would GUARANTEE without a doubt that in any event(including that of preemptive nuclear strike on Pak by India to neutralize Pak's landbased nuclear weapons) Pak will be able to retaliate and nuke India from any part of the world.
> 
> A nuclear sub can hide for months...away from the eyes and reach of IN assets. This will ensure that no scenario exists where India can win...and hopefully this threat of MAD(with 100% reliability) will prevent wars in the future.


Boomer or Mini-Boomer coming, Hang on tight, it might be a while

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## Cookie Monster

Khafee said:


> Boomer or Mini-Boomer coming, Hang on tight, it might be a while


If I may inquire further...is it gonna carry nuclear tipped cruise missiles or nuclear tipped ballistic missiles?

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## Khafee

Cookie Monster said:


> If I may inquire further...is it gonna carry nuclear tipped cruise missiles or nuclear tipped ballistic missiles?


Both

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## Cookie Monster

Khafee said:


> Both


I'm even more intrigued now bcuz usually it's either one or the other.

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## Ahmet Pasha

You are breaking very chatpati news these days bro.



Khafee said:


> Both

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## The Accountant

Khafee said:


> Boomer or Mini-Boomer coming, Hang on tight, it might be a while


Sir g aap kushiyan dy dy ker heart attack kerwayn gy


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## Nasr

nadeemkhan110 said:


> *PAKISTAN MINISTRY OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION CONFIRMS SUBMARINE CONTRACT*



Even though Pakistan Navy's acquisition of 8 (AIP) Submarines is a leap forward in capability. There is something more important, crucial for Pakistan Navy to accomplish, and that is to have the knowledge base of nautical engineering, industrial tooling and the foundations laid for Research & Development of submarine technologies. Having Pakistani experts in this field is pivotal to Pakistan Navy's ability to absorb transfer of technology from other countries. What Pakistan ought to be doing is channeling through young Pakistanis to gain this knowledge base from other countries. Sending our young to Russia, Germany, China and France to gain Post Graduate degrees in such fields on State Sponsored Scholarships. And to build research facilities for these Pakistani graduates to hone in their skills and abilities in R&D. To generate a nucleas of Naval Combat Systems knowledge base. 

It is hopeful that Pakistan's deal for 8 submarines from China, would be the step toward attaining the desired goal.

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## Armchair

These submarines, 4 will be built in China and the other four in Pakistan. These later for are the ones which are being speculated to be SSN/SSBN capable. They will have a small nuclear engine and enough space for a few BMs and a few cruise missiles. Multipurpose boomers, not the traditional method used by other powers of having separate SSBNs.


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## Quwa

Armchair said:


> These submarines, 4 will be built in China and the other four in Pakistan. These later for are the ones which are being speculated to be SSN/SSBN capable. They will have a small nuclear engine and enough space for a few BMs and a few cruise missiles. Multipurpose boomers, not the traditional method used by other powers of having separate SSBNs.


As it stands (in the public domain), all 8 are AIP/SSPs. However, seeing what the PN apparently pulled with the MILGEM (Jinnah-class) by configuring them with VLS (with zero indication of it), who knows...

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## khanasifm

Sub launch cruise missile anti ship and land attack is part of package plus pak baber sub launch good enough 

Third world country cannot be compared with world powers , no one paying taxes and corruption up the wazoo 

Become an economic power first and then military power 

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...sonic-anti-ship-missile-spotted-in-china.html

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## khanasifm

YJ-18B which the submarine launched variant


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## Armchair

Hope we can get a good BM with the submarine, would be fantastic. Presently our missile tech is not even near competitive with the world powers.


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## khanasifm

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....yuan-type-039a-type-041-submarine-yuan-class/


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## truthseeker2010

Quwa said:


> As it stands (in the public domain), all 8 are AIP/SSPs. However, seeing what the PN apparently pulled with the MILGEM (Jinnah-class) by configuring them with VLS (with zero indication of it), who knows...



what is the expected loadout(no of weapons) of the new sub?

I am expecting 20 as it is 2800t submerged sub.


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## Quwa

truthseeker2010 said:


> what is the expected loadout(no of weapons) of the new sub?
> 
> I am expecting 20 as it is 2800t submerged sub.


I counted 6 torpedo tubes, but no info on internal load-out.

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## truthseeker2010

Quwa said:


> I counted 6 torpedo tubes, but no info on internal load-out.



Sir what is your guess? 
also any vls?


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## Quwa

truthseeker2010 said:


> Sir what is your guess?
> also any vls?


To be honest, it's hard to tell. The PN is great at keeping its cards close to its chest, and it has gotten into the great habit of underpromising and overdelivering. It turned a policing OPV from Damen into an AShM-capable corvette; it turned an ASW corvette from STM into a multi-mission frigate with AAW via VLS; it said it wants a new-gen LRMPA to supplant the P-3Cs; and so on. So based on that trend, it's possible the Hangor SSP could be impressive, but we'll have to wait and see in the end.

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## Thorough Pro

A submarines range, operating depth, number and type of offensive weapons it carries and how long it can stay submerged are classified information. all you hear, read are estimates and rumors. 




truthseeker2010 said:


> what is the expected loadout(no of weapons) of the new sub?
> 
> I am expecting 20 as it is 2800t submerged sub.

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## ARMalik

I wonder when the 1st Submarine would be handed over to PN?


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## Tamiyah

ARMalik said:


> I wonder when the 1st Submarine would be handed over to PN?


Its after 2022.

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## sohail.ishaque

Tamiyah said:


> Its after 2022.


Isn't it too late ? the action might start much before that. is there anyway that we can get a few units earlier


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## ARMalik

sohail.ishaque said:


> Isn't it too late ? the action might start much before that. is there anyway that we can get a few units earlier



Yep, that's why I asked the question. What would be the use of Submarines when these can't be used on time during the conflict. Signs are looking bad, and there is a chance of conflict in 2019 or 2020.


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## Nasr

ARMalik said:


> Yep, that's why I asked the question. What would be the use of Submarines when these can't be used on time during the conflict. Signs are looking bad, and there is a chance of conflict in 2019 or 2020.



There is no chance for a conflict between Pakistan and India before 2025.


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## Ultima Thule

Nasr said:


> There is no chance for a conflict between Pakistan and India before 2025.


And how do you know, you will predict the future, you can't predict next few seconds that you're live or die within next few seconds and you're talking about 2025 @Nasr

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ARMalik said:


> I wonder when the 1st Submarine would be handed over to PN?


The first 4 will come in quick succession, basically all by 2023. The last 4 by 2028.

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## Nasr

pakistanipower said:


> And how do you know, you will predict the future, you can't predict next few seconds that you're live or die within next few seconds and you're talking about 2025 @Nasr



It's called "_geo-political analysis_" where those who have studied political science, analyse all aspects of geo-politics, economics and military preparedness of countries.

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## Ultima Thule

Nasr said:


> It's called "_geo-political analysis_" where those who have studied political science, analyse all aspects of geo-politics, economics and military preparedness of countries.


and don't tell me you're geopolitical analysis team, an its just a educated guess/Predictions, war will be before 2025 or after 2025 who knows @Nasr


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## Nasr

pakistanipower said:


> and don't tell me you're geopolitical analysis team, an its just a educated guess/Predictions, war will be before 2025 or after 2025 who knows @Nasr



You're saying war will happen based on the immediate circumstances, with threats in Pakistan's immediate neighborhood. Whereas I am basing my analysis based on most, not all, variables which are both immediate and near future. India will not start a war now or before 2025, because it's economy is currently on the verge of capitulating. They have no "_fall back_" contingency. Even with Western support and it's israeli friends, even India isn't stupid enough to start a war with Pakistan, based on the current and near future geo-political, economic and military terms. 

Do a little bit more research, and I am sure you will draw to similar conclusions as I have.

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## araz

Nasr said:


> You're saying war will happen based on the immediate circumstances, with threats in Pakistan's immediate neighborhood. Whereas I am basing my analysis based on most, not all, variables which are both immediate and near future. India will not start a war now or before 2025, because it's economy is currently on the verge of capitulating. They have no "_fall back_" contingency. Even with Western support and it's israeli friends, even India isn't stupid enough to start a war with Pakistan, based on the current and near future geo-political, economic and military terms.
> 
> Do a little bit more research, and I am sure you will draw to similar conclusions as I have.


I tend to agree and had maintained the same stance as you. However there is so much aggression on both sides that any misadventure can easily escalate. Wars have a momentum of their own and this one will be the worst one ever. This is where our worries lie.
Hopefully sanity prevails.
A

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## khanasifm

So agosta subs have 4x 533 mm or 21 inches tubes and can carry about 18-20 missiles and torpedoes at a time that’s 20/4 = 5 reloads

Chinese 039/041 has 6 tubes so it should carry 6x5 ~ 30 ?


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## Imran Khan

khanasifm said:


> So agosta subs have 4x 533 mm or 21 inches tubes and can carry about 18-20 missiles and torpedoes at a time that’s 20/4 = 5 reloads
> 
> Chinese 039/041 has 6 tubes so it should carry 6x5 ~ 30 ?


then why i found more then 20 AGOSTA-90 B sir


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## ARMalik

I know I have said this plenty of times, but China - Pakistan seriously need to bring the delivery time of these Subs quicker than 2023. The way things are going, 2023 is too late.

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## Pakistani Fighter

ARMalik said:


> I know I have said this plenty of times, but China - Pakistan seriously need to bring the delivery time of these Subs quicker than 2023. The way things are going, 2023 is too late.


U think Pak and Ind are going to conflict again?


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## ARMalik

Yes I think Feb 27 was just one episode. Unfortunately there are powers who desperately want a war between Pakistan and India for some serious Geo-strategic gains. If these two countries fall into the trap, Both countries will suffer immensely but ironically it would be India that would suffer more.


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## Yasser76

ARMalik said:


> Yes I think Feb 27 was just one episode. Unfortunately there are powers who desperately want a war between Pakistan and India for some serious Geo-strategic gains. If these two countries fall into the trap, Both countries will suffer immensely but ironically it would be India that would suffer more.



It's not just delivery but PN will need time to train up crews (at least two sets of crew per sub) and develop tactics and use of weaponry. 

Maybe a year or two after delivery that these subs become effective. What is also a concern is that much of the Agosta 90B fleet is out of service at any one given time due to upgrades in Turkey

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## ARMalik

Yasser76 said:


> It's not just delivery but PN will need time to train up crews (at least two sets of crew per sub) and develop tactics and use of weaponry.
> 
> Maybe a year or two after delivery that these subs become effective. What is also a concern is that much of the Agosta 90B fleet is out of service at any one given time due to upgrades in Turkey



Yes indeed. All this means PN would be looking at 2025 to 2027. Unless, of course PN is already doing crew training with prior arrangements with the Chinese which seem highly unlikely although not improbable.


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## SABRE

Yasser76 said:


> It's not just delivery but PN will need time to train up crews (at least two sets of crew per sub) and develop tactics and use of weaponry.
> 
> Maybe a year or two after delivery that these subs become effective. What is also a concern is that much of the Agosta 90B fleet is out of service at any one given time due to upgrades in Turkey



If indeed Hangor is a S-20 variant then PN should try to acquire at least one Type-039A, from which the S-20 is derived, on lease from China for training and planning purposes. Otherwise, it could be a long process and the gap left by unavailability of much of the submarine fleet for the PN might keep on increasing, especially with IN's acquisition of Scorpene going on. Not to forget, the new submarines are going to be the backbone of Pakistan's nuclear second strike capability. We need to simulate and mock-exercise this role in the short-run, identify the gaps and short-comings, and promptly have them corrected while the boats are still under construction.


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## khanasifm



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 589352


Unlikely. There are no signs of hinges, and I'd expect VLS cells to be in pairs (2, 4, 6, etc) and arranged 'vertically' instead of horizontally in this case.


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## Shah_Deu

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Unlikely. There are no signs of hinges


 Its just a scaled model and hence is not detailed to the screws.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> and I'd expect VLS cells to be in pairs (2, 4, 6, etc)


 why in even numbers? any specific reason?


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## Thorough Pro

That's not where VLS silos are placed on a sub. 



khanasifm said:


> View attachment 589352


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Shah_Deu said:


> Its just a scaled model and hence is not detailed to the screws.
> 
> why in even numbers? any specific reason?


It's the only arrangement we've seen so far, especially for submarines.


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## Shah_Deu

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's the only arrangement we've seen so far, especially for submarines.



You are right, but the 'even' number of missile tubes might just be a coincidence i would say. Since the Hangor class submarines are small attack submarines, the number of vertical tubes doesnt really matter if they are followed by an effective missile reloading system on the backend.



Thorough Pro said:


> That's not where VLS silos are placed on a sub.



The VLS might not be present in the Hangor class submarines at all and it might just utilize the horizontal torpedo tubes for cold launch of cruise missiles (like Israel's Dolphin class). But in case it contains a VLS, it will be something incorporated by the designers at a much later re-design stage on the standard model (which is without a VLS). So depends really on the design and homologation of subsystems within the hull and how efficiently the designers are able to squeeze out the maxiumum from the space envelope available to them. I would definitely look at the model posted with some interest.

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## LKJ86

Shah_Deu said:


> You are right, but the 'even' number of missile tubes might just be a coincidence i would say. Since the Hangor class submarines are small attack submarines, the number of vertical tubes doesnt really matter if they are followed by an effective missile reloading system on the backend.
> 
> 
> 
> The VLS might not be present in the Hangor class submarines at all and it might just utilize the horizontal torpedo tubes for cold launch of cruise missiles. But in case it contains a VLS, it will be something incorporated by the designers at a much later re-design stage on the standard model (which is without VLS). So depends really on the design and homologation of subsystems within the hull and how efficiently the designers are able to squeeze out the maxiumum from the space envelope available to them. I would definitely look at the model posted with some interest.


Have you developped missiles for the "VLS" in submarines?


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## Shah_Deu

LKJ86 said:


> Have you developped missiles for the "VLS" in submarines?


You dont always have to do something yourself to prove the point, it might just well be based on some basic logical reasoning and common-sense.


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## LKJ86

Shah_Deu said:


> You dont always have to do something yourself to prove the point, it might just well be based on some basic logical reasoning and common-sense.


There are news about the tests of such missiles taken by India.
What about Pakistan?

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## Shah_Deu

LKJ86 said:


> There are news about the tests of such missiles taken by India.
> What about Pakistan?


I personally believe each time India tests a missile, we are provided with a good opportunity and a valid excuse to schedule our own tests around the same timeline - both for new projects and for the compliance and re-test of older systems, in order to not bother this dual-faced so-called peace-loving democracies of the West. I can just hope we have got some of our own tests scheduled least not some long legged sub-sonic LACMs and SLCMs and super-sonic LACMs. But I know the people at the helm of affairs are much more intelligent and smarter than me, i hope so atleast.


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## The Accountant

Shah_Deu said:


> I personally believe each time India tests a missile, we are provided with a good opportunity and a valid excuse to schedule our own tests around the same timeline - both for new projects and for the compliance and re-test of older systems, in order to not bother this dual-faced so-called peace-loving democracies of the West. I can just hope we have got some of our own tests scheduled least not some long legged sub-sonic LACMs and SLCMs and super-sonic LACMs. But I know the people at the helm of affairs are much more intelligent and smarter than me, i hope so atleast.


Not smarter or intelligentbut more well informed


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## DESERT FIGHTER

LKJ86 said:


> There are news about the tests of such missiles taken by India.
> What about Pakistan?


Till now we have only tested Babur III SLCM:

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## khanasifm

Cost, Politics Prove Decisive Factors in Royal Thai Navy’s Submarine Selection
June 29, 2015 - by Forecast International
Dan Darling, International Military Markets Analyst, Forecast International.

As part of its effort to resurrect a submarine capability after 64 years of dormancy, the Royal Thai Navy has selected a Chinese proposal to provide three submarines at a cost of THB12 billion ($355 million). The Chinese proposal was one of six offers, with the others coming from France, Germany, Russia, South Korea and Sweden. A majority of the 17-member submarine procurement committee appointed by the RTN voted in favor of the Chinese bid, with the remainder split between the bids from Germany and South Korea. In the end, the Chinese-built option was deemed the best value for the money and downselected as the preferred candidate.

While price no doubt factored heavily in the decision, there are other aspects to consider. One is technology transfer to local Thai industry, which, according to one committee member, China expressed a willingness to provide. Another issue is the provision of a training package for RTN submariners – again, an aspect covered by the Chinese bid.

Finally, there is the geopolitical aspect. Since the Royal Thai Army undertook a coup in May 2014 – its 19th in Thailand’s modern history – relations with China have grown warmer, as the military junta ruling the country has incurred rebukes from long-standing ally, the United States, over its actions. Naturally, the ruling junta would prefer to deal with a country and government disinclined to interfere with the internal politics of Thailand.


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## khanasifm

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2594795964131442

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## khanasifm

Various missions such as special operations, mine laying, reconnaissance, patrol, and blockade operations are possible. A total of 18 torpedoes or missiles with 6 torpedo launchers on the bow > A CM-708UNB type SUM model that can be mounted on the S-26T was also exhibited at the weapon show. CM-708UNB has a range of 300km


With 38 crew members, a total length of 78m, and a surface drainage volume of 2600t, it is larger than Russia's kilo-type, and is said to be one of the largest power submarines in the international market. The cruising range is 4 knots and 8000 nautical miles, the continuous operation period is 65 days, the submersible depth is 300 m, the weapons are torpedoes, anti-ship missiles, anti-ground missiles, etc

View attachment 597335

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## khanasifm

https://thediplomat.com/2016/04/china-unveils-new-submarine-launched-anti-ship-cruise-missile/

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## khanasifm

Song– and Yuan-class attack submarines will also purportedly be fitted with the YJ-18 vertically-launched, long-range, supersonic anti-ship missile, although an exact induction date for the new weapon is not known.”

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...-18-supersonic-anti-ship-missile-emerges.html

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## Cool_Soldier

If Song Class Sub marines are coming with YJ 18 capability, it would be great development. PN might develop its own local version to be used in future.


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## Pakistani Fighter

khanasifm said:


> Song– and Yuan-class attack submarines will also purportedly be fitted with the YJ-18 vertically-launched, long-range, supersonic anti-ship missile, although an exact induction date for the new weapon is not known.”
> 
> https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...-18-supersonic-anti-ship-missile-emerges.html


Pakistan getting type 039 or 041?


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## syed_yusuf

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Pakistan getting type 039 or 041?


None, it will be a varient of above two


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## LKJ86

khanasifm said:


> Song– and Yuan-class attack submarines will also purportedly be fitted with the YJ-18 vertically-launched, long-range, supersonic anti-ship missile, although an exact induction date for the new weapon is not known.”
> 
> https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...-18-supersonic-anti-ship-missile-emerges.html


The vertical launching variants of YJ-18 are only for Type 052D DDG and Type 055 DDG.
And the variant of YJ-18 for submarines is launched through torpedo tube.


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## ARMalik

Whatever these Subs are, they are very expensive. Are they being Gold plated by any chance?

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## LKJ86

ARMalik said:


> Are they being Gold plated by any chance?


Do you have cheaper options?

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## SD 10

LKJ86 said:


> The vertical launching variants of YJ-18 are only for Type 052D DDG and Type 055 DDG.
> And the variant of YJ-18 for submarines is launched through torpedo tube.


can you please tell me which model is pakistan getting? s20? type 39 or something else? there is no information.


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## LKJ86

SD 10 said:


> can you please tell me which model is pakistan getting? s20? type 39 or something else? there is no information.


Type 039/A/B/... are the names given by PLA, while S-20 and others are the names for export variants, just like HQ-16/LY-80, HQ-9/FD-2000.

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## khanasifm

Pn would most probably get a customized version and may be called something new but s-20 was smaller vs Chinese 039/41 but perhaps when adding aip it’s will be one the largest conventional sub 2600 ton surface and 3600 tons submerged and depends on what pn is asking especially if the Vls buzz is correct Then may go up by couple of hundreds ton

But with 6 tubes and 18 rounds meaning 3 full reloads for all tubes

Meaning 6 ssm 8 torpedoes and perhaps 4 rounds of surface attack cruise missiles like yj-18 or Cj-10 type is max load combination

Will be Nice to have 4-6 more rounds capacity or with additional of so called Vls for ~ 4 on top of 18

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing-class_submarine

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## khanasifm



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## lcloo

China's export submarine designation give you some idea on it's displacement. S-20 is a 2,000 tons submarine. S-26 ordered by Thailand is a 2,600 ton ship. So if your customised submarine has displacement of 2,800 tons, it will likely be called S-28.

Picture at post #641 above is a test-bed submarine called type 032. (Many netizens have on their own initiative give it a designation type 41, which is incorrect). All conventional powered submarines (SSK) built in China are designation type 03X, as in type 039, 032 etc.

Type 032 (mistaken as type 041) is a test bed for missiles, torpedo etc. It is not a frontline combat ship.

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## PakAlp

How do these Hangor class subs for Pakistan compare to our Agosta 90B subs. Are they from similar generation or is Hangor class any better. The same goes with the German subs which we were about to purchase. I hope Pakistan navy is not compromising on quality over quantity.


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## SD 10

PakAlp said:


> How do these Hangor class subs for Pakistan compare to our Agosta 90B subs. Are they from similar generation or is Hangor class any better. The same goes with the German subs which we were about to purchase. I hope Pakistan navy is not compromising on quality over quantity.


They are not compromising on quality! Plus China is a reliable strategic partner, Germany or Nato is not !

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## SABRE

PakAlp said:


> How do these Hangor class subs for Pakistan compare to our Agosta 90B subs. Are they from similar generation or is Hangor class any better. The same goes with the German subs which we were about to purchase. I hope Pakistan navy is not compromising on quality over quantity.



Latest Chinese subs, in any case, should be superior to the base Agosta-90B provided by the French. I am hesitant to say anything about their AIP and propulsion system at this stage, even though they have made considerable advancements in them. The German U214 was a better option IMO but purely based on tactical reasoning. PN had very cleverly only pitched U214 to the government back in the day so no creeping bureaucratic competition would be held, resulting in unwanted and unwarranted delays. Yet, the deal still fell through. Later the Chinese emerged with an economical option where PN could get 8 subs instead of 4. Plus, the option of desired modifications. Considering PN was looking into nuclear second-strike capability the Chinese appeared more politically reliable.

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## ARMalik

LKJ86 said:


> Do you have cheaper options?



Like German Submarines cheaper or equal. So if you think Chinese sub tech can compare with Germans, then you are *flattering yourself*. Unless these Chinese subs which PN has ordered have got some sort of Star-Trek technology in them, these are way too expensive, and way too late.

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## LKJ86

ARMalik said:


> Like German Submarines cheaper or equal. So if you think Chinese sub tech can compare with Germans, then you are *flattering yourself*. Unless these Chinese subs which PN has ordered have got some sort of Star-Trek technology in them, these are way too expensive, and way too late.


So, why doesn't PN choose German option?


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## MastanKhan

LKJ86 said:


> So, why doesn't PN choose German option?



Hi,

We did---took too much time---and Zardari looted the funds by the time subs became available---.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ARMalik said:


> Like German Submarines cheaper or equal. So if you think Chinese sub tech can compare with Germans, then you are *flattering yourself*. Unless these Chinese subs which PN has ordered have got some sort of Star-Trek technology in them, these are way too expensive, and way too late.


IIRC the Hangor SSP program is coming at $300 to $350 m per submarine, the lowest cost you could get for a contemporary submarine with AIP. When the PN was negotiating the Type 214, each submarine was coming in at $350-400 m per ship, but that was a decade ago. So, if we factor in inflation nearly 6-7 years later, it would have been more expensive for the PN, definitely not doable for 8 ships. We've also got to consider that the Hangor SSP came with a Chinese financing package (manageable installments and payment term for the PN). 

Looking at the Jinnah-class, if the PN could've gotten Type 214s for $350 m a ship, and with a loan from Germany, it would've gotten those instead of the Hangor. However, that option wasn't available. 

In any case, we should also think about the late 2030s and early 2040s when the Agosta 90Bs reach 40 years of age. I hope we work on a clean sheet submarine design with fuel cells and VLS to replace the Agosta 90Bs and to expand our fleet even further

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## lcloo

ARMalik said:


> Like German Submarines cheaper or equal. So if you think Chinese sub tech can compare with Germans, then you are *flattering yourself*. Unless these Chinese subs which PN has ordered have got some sort of Star-Trek technology in them, these are way too expensive, and way too late.



Scorpene submarine (French) 2,000 tons US$450 million each (2010 price)
S-80 (Spanish) 3,200 tons Euro 553 Million each (2010 price)
Type 212 (Germany) 1,830 tons Euro 560 million
Kilo (Russia) *without AIP *2,350 tons US$333 million (2009 price)
Barracuda (French) 4,760 tons Euro 1,300 million each (2013 price)
Amur class (Russia) 950 tons (AIP is optional) $450 million (none built todate)

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## ARMalik

LKJ86 said:


> So, why doesn't PN choose German option?



You need to ask PN. Is there a possibility that these Chinese subs are a new class of Subs.


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## FuturePAF

The Turks operate German Submarines and have upgraded the Agosta 90B submarines recently. I'm sure Pakistan has asked all the questions it needed to ask during the upgrade to find out how German Technology really preforms. Also Pakistan got a chance to evaluate the Type 214 and has picked the Hangor option. The Pakistani military doesn't seem to compromise on quality if the price is close enough.

Furthermore, The Hangor may have Pakistani Specific modifications that keeps its full range of capabilities secret. That is a valuable feature that an off the shelf European submarine doesn't allow.

Also, this time the PN may actually be able to build a follow on design in the 2030s when the Agosta 90B subs will need to be retired.

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## khanasifm

lcloo said:


> China's export submarine designation give you some idea on it's displacement. S-20 is a 2,000 tons submarine. S-26 ordered by Thailand is a 2,600 ton ship. So if your customised submarine has displacement of 2,800 tons, it will likely be called S-28.
> 
> Picture at post #641 above is a test-bed submarine called type 032. (Many netizens have on their own initiative give it a designation type 41, which is incorrect). All conventional powered submarines (SSK) built in China are designation type 03X, as in type 039, 032 etc.
> 
> Type 032 (mistaken as type 041) is a test bed for missiles, torpedo etc. It is not a frontline combat ship.



The point was if required a conventional sub can be fitted with Vls or can launch from 533 mm it in some case lather torpedo tubes

Israeli subs has 650 mm torpedo tubes to launching land attack cruise / ballast ice missiles Along with standard 533 mm


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## lcloo

khanasifm said:


> The point was if required a conventional sub can be fitted with Vls or can launch from 533 mm it in some case lather torpedo tubes
> 
> Israeli subs has 650 mm torpedo tubes to launching land attack cruise / ballast ice missiles Along with standard 533 mm


If Pakistan asked for a VLS installation on a SSK, it would be a completely new design that is neither a type 39B nor type 32. It will be more expensive and will take much longer time from design stage to completion.

A submarine equipment with VLS would need a very big hull diameter in order to enable fitting of the VLS to fit in. Thus it would required a design based on type 32. Type 32 is said to be 6,628 tons which is a very big conventional submarine. It is close to a small nuclear powered submarine.

Currently, type 39B/S20/S26 is using its torpedo tubes to launch anti-ship missiles.

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## HRK

lcloo said:


> If Pakistan asked for a VLS installation on a SSK, it would be a completely new design that is neither a type 39B nor type 32. It will be more expensive and will take much longer time from design stage to completion.
> 
> A submarine equipment with VLS would need a very big hull diameter in order to enable fitting of the VLS to fit in. Thus it would required a design based on type 32. Type 32 is said to be 6,628 tons which is a very big conventional submarine. It is close to a small nuclear powered submarine.
> 
> Currently, type 39B/S20/S26 is using its torpedo tubes to launch anti-ship missiles.


Hangoor CLass Model showcased during IDEAS-2018 exhibition

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## Falcon26

HRK said:


> Hangoor CLass Model showcased during IDEAS-2018 exhibition
> View attachment 601128



highly doubtful that those are VLS


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## HRK

Falcon26 said:


> highly doubtful that those are VLS


You may be right BUT my reasons to accept those as VLS are

- *No other Explanation is available:* Everyone that I know who could comment on this are not accepting it as VLS but also not giving any other explanation, plus the dimension of this version of submarine is different then the S-26T AIP version sold to Thai Navy, so in simple logic if it look, act, and quack like a duck then it must be a duck.

- *Operation Requirement:* Here keep in mind that PN is in need of submarine which can launch cruise missiles for land attack purpose which mean *as a weapon of last resort*, but in case if PN use torpedo tube for the said purpose then the submarine would have to sacrifice few torpedoes, Naval mines or other anti-ship missiles from her arsenal which in case of India-Pakistan Naval disbalance _equivalent of feilding main naval strike weapon of PN with less fire power for main operational requirements _

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## khanasifm

Falcon26 said:


> highly doubtful that those are VLS



May be smaller Vls like on 032 at the front, yj-18 or similar 1000-2000 km range missiles pn does not need more

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## khanasifm

Couple of points 

1 s-26 sold has 2600 tonnage vs hangoor being 2800 surface I think or submerged ??

Plus these three doors does not exist on 039/041 in chines types 






















Specifications of S-26T “A” AIP submarine that China received an order for Thai Navy were released

With 38 crew members, a total length of 78m, and a surface drainage volume of 2600t, it is larger than Russia's kilo-type, and is said to be one of the largest power submarines in the international market. The cruising range is 4 knots and 8000 nautical miles, the continuous operation period is 65 days, the submersible depth is 300 m, the weapons are torpedoes, anti-ship missiles, anti-ground missiles, etc.

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## Thorough Pro

hatche covers for supplies, not VLS



HRK said:


> Hangoor CLass Model showcased during IDEAS-2018 exhibition
> View attachment 601128


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## khanasifm

Surface drainage or surface displacement is 2600 ton submerged will be more

Chinese specs for Chinese 039 is 3600 tonnage submerged for Chinese boats


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## maverick1977

Pakistan subs will have 3 tube VL SLBMs capability with MIRV.. you will be surprised how potent Pakistan Navy will become after these AIP capable subs.. As far as nuke subs are concerned. AZm has taken priority over Nuke subs..

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## HRK

Thorough Pro said:


> hatche covers for supplies, not VLS


I won't dismiss your explanation but would ask you why there is need for another 3 hatch covers when 5 are already visible in this model .... ???



maverick1977 said:


> Pakistan subs will have 3 tube VL SLBMs capability with MIRV


too farfetch idea .... plus it does not fit with dimensions of the submarine

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## khanasifm

MAXIMUM SPEED
12-15kt surfaced and 22kt dived

The only thing compared to a-90 is max diving depth 300 meters va 350 for French boat


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## Thorough Pro

Inside of a sub is a pretty tight place and it's not easy to move around big items, thus usually there are multiple hatches to bring various stuff onboard close to their storage space. This depends a lot on the inner layout of the sub and some part of my explanation is a pure assumption on my part. @Rashid Mahmood can throw more light on it



HRK said:


> I won't dismiss your explanation but would ask you why there is need for another 3 hatch covers when 5 are already visible in this model .... ???
> 
> 
> too farfetch idea .... plus it does not fit with dimensions of the submarine

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## Pakistani Fighter

Will Pakistani S20s have a Ballistic Missile Launching capability?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @LKJ86 @Deino @Basel


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## LKJ86

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Will Pakistani S20s have a Ballistic Missile Launching capability?
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @LKJ86 @Deino @Basel


What submarine-launched ballistic missiles will Pakistan have?


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## Pakistani Fighter

LKJ86 said:


> What submarine-launched ballistic missiles will Pakistan have?


I think Type 039B


----------



## Deino

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I think Type 039B




IMO never

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## Lone Ranger

LKJ86 said:


> What submarine-launched ballistic missiles will Pakistan have?


submarine launched variant of ababeel or shaheen series will do the job

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## Tipu7

maverick1977 said:


> Pakistan subs will have 3 tube VL SLBMs capability with MIRV.. you will be surprised how potent Pakistan Navy will become after these AIP capable subs.. As far as nuke subs are concerned. AZm has taken priority over Nuke subs..


Opinion or news?


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## Pandora

LKJ86 said:


> What submarine-launched ballistic missiles will Pakistan have?





Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I think Type 039B



Pakistan will not have any ballistic missile subs simply bcz we have no use for them. We have adopted our conventional subs for this role by mating them with SLCM Babur Naval Version. Our biggest and only enemy is sitting right next door and we have no other enemies unless we want to make one needlessly.



maverick1977 said:


> Pakistan subs will have 3 tube VL SLBMs capability with MIRV.. you will be surprised how potent Pakistan Navy will become after these AIP capable subs.. As far as nuke subs are concerned. AZm has taken priority over Nuke subs..



It will be SLCM not SLBM and existing tubes will be modified negating need for VL system. Our SLCM Babur Naval version has been given this role. Pakistan never had any ambitions for nuclear powered subs but a NAVAL nuclear launch capability was always there. We will effectively have that capability through our Augusta 90 and Hangoor class subs so mission accomplished. All other speculations of Ballistic missiles on subs or nuclear powered subs are total BS being floated by bunch of fan boys on internet.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Pandora said:


> Pakistan will not have any ballistic missile subs simply bcz we have no use for them We have adopted our conventional subs for this role by mating them with SLCM Babur Naval Version.


Then what is the use of a 450km SLCM?


----------



## Pandora

LKJ86 said:


> So, why doesn't PN choose German option?



To be honest you cant compare chinese subs with german subs not with current level of technology. Germans are at a whole another level considering they have been building subs for about a century now. Pakistan opted for Chinese subs for one reason only bcz we needed to adopt these subs with Nuclear Capable SLCM. I doubt any other country would have allowed us to mate their subs with nuclear capability.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Then what is the use of a 450km SLCM?



That is a cruise missile not ballistic missile.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Pandora said:


> To be honest you cant compare chinese subs with german subs not with current level of technology. Germans are at a whole another level considering they have been building subs for about a century now. Pakistan opted for Chinese subs for one reason only bcz we needed to adopt these subs with Nuclear Capable SLCM. I doubt any other country would have allowed us to mate their subs with nuclear capability.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a cruise missile not ballistic missile.


Agosta is French too


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## Pandora

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Agosta is French too



Augusta came with TOT we have made several modifications to them over the years to suite our needs. Secondly when we got those subs we didn't have any ambitions to arm our subs with nuke capability.


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## Zarvan

Can somebody explain what the hell we have actually ordered. We ordered Subs 5 years ago and still manufacturing of the first one hasn't started. We are paying double price so sure as hell it's not Type 39 B or some modified version so what on earth we really are buying for GOD sake. 

@Deino @Tipu7 @Pandora @Syed Hammad Ahmed @LKJ86


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## Pakistani Fighter

Zarvan said:


> Can somebody explain what the hell we have actually ordered. We ordered Subs 5 years ago and still manufacturing of the first one hasn't started. We are paying double price so sure as hell it's not Type 39 B or some modified version so what on earth we really are buying for GOD sake.
> 
> @Deino @Tipu7 @Pandora @Syed Hammad Ahmed @LKJ86


A/c to @Bilal Khan (Quwa) cost of 8 subs is around $2-3 billion dollars. A Chineese member was saying that Sub projects in China are hidden


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## Pandora

Zarvan said:


> Can somebody explain what the hell we have actually ordered. We ordered Subs 5 years ago and still manufacturing of the first one hasn't started. We are paying double price so sure as hell it's not Type 39 B or some modified version so what on earth we really are buying for GOD sake.
> 
> @Deino @Tipu7 @Pandora @Syed Hammad Ahmed @LKJ86



Well considering what i have read from different sources its a custom built sub with AIP and capability to launch SLCM Babur and other home built Naval missiles. It's not like we have the capability to pay off all the cost in one go so i guess it came with a bit of cost bcz of financing provided by china.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Pandora said:


> Well considering what i have read from different sources its a custom built sub with AIP and capability to launch SLCM Babur and other home built Naval missiles. It's not like we have the capability to pay off all the cost in one go so i guess it came with a bit of cost bcz of financing provided by china.


Type 039A is already AIP



Pandora said:


> other home built Naval missiles.


What other Missiles we have?
Did we altered the Tubes for SLCM in Agosta??


----------



## Tipu7

Zarvan said:


> Can somebody explain what the hell we have actually ordered. We ordered Subs 5 years ago and still manufacturing of the first one hasn't started. We are paying double price so sure as hell it's not Type 39 B or some modified version so what on earth we really are buying for GOD sake.
> 
> @Deino @Tipu7 @Pandora @Syed Hammad Ahmed @LKJ86


Because the Pakistan specific subs are heavily customized to meet the _specific_ demands of Pakistan Navy. The modifications in structure demands subsequent testing & further evaluation which takes time. Once the design is frozen and rest of systems are finalized the vessel then hit production line. That's the reason it's taking such long time for producing the very first sub and the time gap between each remains subs production is pretty less. (as they will be clones of already finalized product). 

The details about the capabilities of these subs are confidential and any one who is firing random shots about the Submarine features, or is questioning it's combat capacity is either living in fool's paradise or want others live in one.

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## Riz

Are we buying submarine that have SLBM capability ??


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## Zarvan

Pandora said:


> Well considering what i have read from different sources its a custom built sub with AIP and capability to launch SLCM Babur and other home built Naval missiles. It's not like we have the capability to pay off all the cost in one go so i guess it came with a bit of cost bcz of financing provided by china.


Even a custom build AIP can't take this long Janab. Specially when a country which we ordered two already has experience of building both AIP and Nuclear Submarines.



Riz said:


> Are we buying submarine that have SLBM capability ??


The kind of time they are taking I hope so or I am hoping at least something similar to this will come.






Amur 950 of Russia




A 26 of Sweden

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## Basel

LKJ86 said:


> What submarine-launched ballistic missiles will Pakistan have?



most probably JL-2 as Hatf BM in future. 



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Type 039A is already AIP
> 
> 
> What other Missiles we have?
> Did we altered the Tubes for SLCM in Agosta??



Babur can be launched from 533mm tubes of A-90B which are now MLUed.



Zarvan said:


> Even a custom build AIP can't take this long Janab. Specially when a country which we ordered two already has experience of building both AIP and Nuclear Submarines.
> 
> 
> The kind of time they are taking I hope so or I am hoping at least something similar to this will come.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amur 950 of Russia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A 26 of Sweden



USSR tested idea of having SLBM launch capability via Golf class sub design which is now used by North Korea.


----------



## Pandora

Zarvan said:


> Even a custom build AIP can't take this long Janab. Specially when a country which we ordered two already has experience of building both AIP and Nuclear Submarines.



It probably has more to do with our payment capability considering we have ordered several Type 54 ships. We also have 4 ships on order from Turkey as well so i guess it is probably stretching our payment capability.


----------



## Deino

Basel said:


> most probably JL-2 as Hatf BM in future.
> ....



Never ever will China sell the JL-2 - a strategic SLBM - to Pakistan, not sure why again without any substance such rumors are spread.

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## StormBreaker

Zarvan said:


> Even a custom build AIP can't take this long Janab. Specially when a country which we ordered two already has experience of building both AIP and Nuclear Submarines.
> 
> 
> The kind of time they are taking I hope so or I am hoping at least something similar to this will come.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amur 950 of Russia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A 26 of Sweden


It might have to do something with our contract start date. Maybe we signed it earlier but implementation and payment installments were scheduled for post 2020.

It might also have to do with monitoring indian steps and advancements in navy and SLBM/SLCM capabilities


----------



## Basel

Deino said:


> Never ever will China sell the JL-2 - a strategic SLBM - to Pakistan, not sure why again without any substance such rumors are spread.



China never sell BM tech to Pakistan, they teach us how to built those.

The Chinese know how to built conventional sub's with SLBM capacity, so why not they can built one for Pakistan with current advance tech which they have??

https://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=golf-class-attack-submarine-soviet-union

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## Deino

Basel said:


> China never sell BM tech to Pakistan, they teach us how to built those.
> 
> The Chinese know how to built conventional sub's with SLBM capacity, so why not they can built one for Pakistan with current advance tech which they have??
> 
> https://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=golf-class-attack-submarine-soviet-union




They surely can, but there is an important line between military cooperation and aid (to a most important alley) and delivering capabilities or even direct weapons of mass destruction. I really cannot think of China delivering a strategic SLBM to Pakistan. More likely is some sort of capability to launch a smaller, shorter ranged missile system, but surely not the JL-2.

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## Basel

Deino said:


> They surely can, but there is an important line between military cooperation and aid (to a most important alley) and delivering capabilities or even direct weapons of mass destruction. I really cannot think of China delivering a strategic SLBM to Pakistan. More likely is some sort of capability to launch a smaller, shorter ranged missile system, but surely not the JL-2.



Most probably if Pakistan build SLBM then it will be based on at least JL-2 tech, range may not be same.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Deino said:


> They surely can, but there is an important line between military cooperation and aid (to a most important alley) and delivering capabilities or even direct weapons of mass destruction. I really cannot think of China delivering a strategic SLBM to Pakistan. More likely is some sort of capability to launch a smaller, shorter ranged missile system, but surely not the JL-2.


https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/chi...-missile-optical-tracking-system-to-pakistan/

They did give something useful for MIRV

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## Rashid Mahmood

2 Subs are being built in China.
Steel cutting for 2 subs is expected early next year in KSEW.

The 3 hatches behind the sail are NOT VLS.
The final design of the sub will not be revealed until they are built and join the PN.

It will be a surprise though.

@Thorough Pro 
@HRK

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## Pakistani Fighter

Rashid Mahmood said:


> 2 Subs are being built in China.
> Steel cutting for 2 subs is expected early next year in KSEW.
> 
> The 3 hatches behind the sail are NOT VLS.
> The final design of the sub will not be revealed until they are built and join the PN.
> 
> It will be a surprise though.
> 
> @Thorough Pro
> @HRK


Would they be able to launch SLBMs?


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## Rashid Mahmood

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Would they be able to launch SLBMs?



Do you really think I would give out such highly classified information, even if I knew it?

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## Pakistani Fighter

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Do you really think I would give out such highly classified information, even if I knew it?


Ok I got it


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## Basel

Rashid Mahmood said:


> 2 Subs are being built in China.
> Steel cutting for 2 subs is expected early next year in KSEW.
> 
> The 3 hatches behind the sail are NOT VLS.
> The final design of the sub will not be revealed until they are built and join the PN.
> 
> It will be a surprise though.
> 
> @Thorough Pro
> @HRK



Something inspired from Golf class concept??


----------



## StormBreaker

Basel said:


> Something inspired from Golf class concept??


First i thought you were being sarcastic by taunting navy with golf due to their constant golf, golf and golf. But then i googled it


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## Basel

StormBreaker said:


> First i thought you were being sarcastic by taunting navy with golf due to their constant golf, golf and golf. But then i googled it



So you didn't know that USSR built Golf class BM carrying conventional sub's and also ToT it to China?

I also posted a link in one of my previous post.

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## StormBreaker

Basel said:


> So you didn't know that USSR built Golf class BM carrying conventional sub's and also ToT it to China?


Not much into navy and army, know only general info

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## Rashid Mahmood

Basel said:


> Something inspired from Golf class concept??



No, its an old design.
The design has not been de-classified yet.
Food for thought......

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## Tank131

Rashid Mahmood said:


> No, its an old design.
> The design has not been de-classified yet.
> Food for thought......
> 
> View attachment 602050
> 
> 
> View attachment 602051


Qing class?


----------



## LKJ86

Thailand S26T submarine

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## khanasifm

__ https://www.facebook.com/





Swedish sub and sterling engine that sank US carrier is war games

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## LKJ86

*Wuhan’s military industry back in action as epidemic situation eases*
Source:Global Times Published: 2020/4/2 19:15:04

As the novel coronavirus pneumonia (COVID-19) epidemic begins to subside in Wuhan, the city most severely affected by COVID-19 in China, the military industry of the city is now going back to normal and making up for time lost during the city's lockdown. 

The Wuhan-based No.701 Institute under the state-owned China State Shipbuilding Corporation Limited (CSSC), a major design institute for China's warships, has been working overtime since March 3 to ensure that an undisclosed major project is not affected by the epidemic, according to a statement the institute released on its WeChat public account on Wednesday.

Wuchang Shipbuilding Industry Group Co Ltd, another CSSC subsidiary known for manufacturing *submarines* and surface vessels, welcomed a second batch of workers back to their positions on March 26, and its factory in Wuhan's Shuangliu reopened on March 27, with assembly lines there beginning to be gradually activated, the company said in two separate statements on its WeChat public account over the past week.

The situation facing military industry institutes and factories in Wuhan has drawn the attention of military observers since the start of the COVID-19 outbreak, as the city was the most hit place by the epidemic in China.

Military experts told the Global Times in early February that China prioritized the health and safety of its weapon developers to avoid fatalities, which meant that any impact on weapons and equipment programs was just short-term.

The statements by the companies and institutes were positive signs, as any delay caused by the epidemic would only be two to three months, and even less if taking compensation for overtime work into consideration, analysts said.

In response to media reports that COVID-19's impact on the strategically important city of Wuhan could also impact China's weapons and equipment plan, Ministry of National Defense spokesperson Ren Guoqiang said at a routine press conference on March 26 that the Chinese People's Liberation Army's determination, will, and ability to defend national sovereignty and territorial integrity will not be shaken by any force or disturbed in any way.

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## khanasifm

I am just curious why last few viruses all started in China ? SARS , current one so on ?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...-biggest-baddest-conventional-submarine-18629


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## aziqbal

Well they only lost a few months 

overall length of the programme means they will make up the lost 2 months


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## LKJ86

khanasifm said:


> I am just curious why last few viruses all started in China ? SARS , current one so on ?
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...-biggest-baddest-conventional-submarine-18629


What about HIV/AIDS, Swine Flu, Ebola, MERS?

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## Dazzler

Keep it on the subs plz

Take rants to another thread.


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## Kharral

Rashid Mahmood said:


> 2 Subs are being built in China.
> Steel cutting for 2 subs is expected early next year in KSEW.
> 
> The 3 hatches behind the sail are NOT VLS.
> The final design of the sub will not be revealed until they are built and join the PN.
> 
> It will be a surprise though.
> 
> @Thorough Pro
> @HRK



Will we also be manufacturing the Steel required in Pakistan or would it be imported from China ?


----------



## araz

Kharral said:


> Will we also be manufacturing the Steel required in Pakistan or would it be imported from China ?


Badshah.
We do not have an alpropriate plant to produce ship grade steel. This will be procured from China .

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## Kharral

araz said:


> Badshah.
> We do not have an alpropriate plant to produce ship grad3 steel. This will be procured from China .



Thought so,
Although one would have hoped that after Agosta construction in Pakistan a support base would have been built up, so next time an acquisition came up we could chip in with our own bits & pieces.

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## Thorough Pro

Some fanboys don't realize that these subs will form the bulk of our second-strike capability. Their design, capability, operating depth, range, endurance, weapon carrying capacity and tube size are highly confidential details that are closely guarded and will never be released not even to naval personnel, only the people who operate those vessels or who deploy them would know the real capabilities and I am very pleased with this arrangement.




Rashid Mahmood said:


> 2 Subs are being built in China.
> Steel cutting for 2 subs is expected early next year in KSEW.
> 
> The 3 hatches behind the sail are NOT VLS.
> The final design of the sub will not be revealed until they are built and join the PN.
> 
> It will be a surprise though.
> 
> @Thorough Pro
> @HRK

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## araz

Kharral said:


> Thought so,
> Although one would have hoped that after Agosta construction in Pakistan a support base would have been built up, so next time an acquisition came up we could chip in with our own bits & pieces.


This should have been done but these plants are frightfully expensive. You need a sustained demand for platforms to set up a plant worth 3-5 billion $. Second hand plants are a possibility but the Turks and the Chinese have also been on the look out for those. So most importantly if we produce ships on a regular basis then it is needed if not then it maybe more cost effective to get the steeel from st else where.
A

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## Kharral

araz said:


> This should have been done but these plants are frightfully expensive. You need a sustained demand for platforms to set up a plant worth 3-5 billion $. Second hand plants are a possibility but the Turks and the Chinese have also been on the look out for those. So most importantly if we produce ships on a regular basis then it is needed if not then it maybe more cost effective to get the steeel from st else where.
> A



Any thing worth having is expensive. You have to start from some where. For a nation of 220 million souls to industrialise & progress, a good metallurgy base is a must. There is all sorts of benefits in having that capability. 
And you are probably more aware of that than I am.

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## araz

Kharral said:


> Any thing worth having is expensive. You have to start from some where. For a nation of 220 million souls to industrialise & progress, a good metallurgy base is a must. There is all sorts of benefits in having that capability.
> And you are probably more aware of that than I am.


You ar3 absolutely right but when successive Governments are passing through one to another crisis nothing will get done. You need sustained stability to progress. The 50s was the time for us and we lost it. Maybe 20s now if this government is allowed to work.
A

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## Pakistani Fighter

Thorough Pro said:


> Some fanboys don't realize that *these subs will form the bulk of our second-strike capability.* Their design, capability, operating depth, range, endurance, weapon carrying capacity and tube size are highly confidential details that are closely guarded and will never be released not even to naval personnel, only the people who operate those vessels or who deploy them would know the real capabilities and I am very pleased with this arrangement.


Looks like they will launch SLBMs.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Looks like they will launch SLBMs.


SLCM.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> SLCM.


Then Thats obvious and nothing to hide. We already have Agostas launching Babur 3s


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## Kharral

araz said:


> You ar3 absolutely right but when successive Governments are passing through one to another crisis nothing will get done. You need sustained stability to progress. The 50s was the time for us and we lost it. Maybe 20s now if this government is allowed to work.
> A



Don’t think these sort of projects should be left up to Politicians to be honest. Such capabilities should be classed as strategic assets, just as important as Nuclear capability. If there could be a Fauji fertiliser then there sure as hell could also be a Fauji Metals/Steels as well.
The few industrialists that we have could also be involved in the effort & if that leads to crony capitalism then so be it.
Every time these is an acquisition we must look to accumulate as much knowledge/infrastructure that we can.
We have preferred a war of attrition as our method of conflict then why not adopt a process of accumulation for National strength & Power build up.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Kharral said:


> Don’t think these sort of projects should be left up to Politicians to be honest. Such capabilities should be classed as strategic assets, just as important as Nuclear capability. If there could be a Fauji fertiliser then there sure as hell could also be a Fauji Metals/Steels as well.
> The few industrialists that we have could also be involved in the effort & if that leads to crony capitalism then so be it.
> Every time these is an acquisition we must look to accumulate as much knowledge/infrastructure that we can.
> We have preferred a war of attrition as our method of conflict then why not adopt a process of accumulation for National strength & Power build up.


I think Peoples Steel Mill has Army influence

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## Kharral

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I think Peoples Steel Mill has Army influence



Not enough by the looks of it.


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## The Accountant

Kharral said:


> Any thing worth having is expensive. You have to start from some where. For a nation of 220 million souls to industrialise & progress, a good metallurgy base is a must. There is all sorts of benefits in having that capability.
> And you are probably more aware of that than I am.


Buddy lets be realistic, our steel industry is not capable to use in cars and u r talking about ship grade steel.

First we should start making autcar grade steel


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## Kharral

The Accountant said:


> Buddy lets be realistic, our steel industry is not capable to use in cars and u r talking about ship grade steel.
> 
> First we should start making autcar grade steel



Read the posts again.

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## The Accountant

Kharral said:


> Read the posts again.


buddy you are asking to build capacity of high grade steel whereas we should start with much lower level first if you agree then we are on same page

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## Kharral

The Accountant said:


> buddy you are asking to build capacity of high grade steel whereas we should start with much lower level first if you agree then we are on same page



Don’t you think it’s only natural that if we endeavour for high grade steel/metals we would reap low hanging fruits on the way ?

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## Thorough Pro

What are "long hanging fruits"?

Why would any industry produce anything for which there is no demand in the country? everything that is produced is based on commercial viability, Navy buys three subs after 30 years, who would invest in making anything for such tiny consumption?




Kharral said:


> Don’t you think it’s only natural that if we endeavour for high grade steel/metals we would reap long hanging fruits on the way ?


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## Kharral

Thorough Pro said:


> What are "long hanging fruits"?
> 
> Why would any industry produce anything for which there is no demand in the country? everything that is produced is based on commercial viability, Navy buys three subs after 30 years, who would invest in making anything for such tiny consumption?



& You believe high strength steel/metals are only used for submarines and nothing else ?

'Low hanging fruits' implies Steels/Metals that are relatively easier to produce compared to something required for Submarines which also have a larger commercial value & usage. For example aluminium & steels for Automotive industry, Small arms, Heavy Machinery, Construction industry ( I know we are already manufacturing steel for construction industry but it could be further improved & expanded )

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## The Accountant

Kharral said:


> Don’t you think it’s only natural that if we endeavour for high grade steel/metals we would reap low hanging fruits on the way ?


No its not. Its the other way around. This is all about economics and demand and supply. These type of industries are very specific and you cannot run them below a certain level. 
Do you know the cost of restarting furnance of Pakistan steel run into tens of millions and hence without production they keep it on running for months as to keep it running was cheaper than to restart but eventually they had to close it as they couldnt pay gas bills.

You can only produce material which has sufficient demand. A specialized grade steel requirement of Pakistan is not enough to justify a plant of own. However, we can start focusing on more generic products which we are currently importing from outside Pakistan like sheets coils etc. Once we achieve that and we start manufacture steel for cars, and house hold items then we can move to next stage where the existing plant can build add some additional quantities of very high grade steel.

Furthermore, we also need skilled workforce.

What you are suggesting is without working on motor cycle engine you start working on rocket engine. On a small level its possible as you require only highly qualified individuals but for a big commercial organization you need large number of skilled workforce therefore step by step approach is necessary and long lasting.

The China we see today started this development in 70s and only got at such level in 20th century. There is no shortcut for long lasting prosperity

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## Thorough Pro

What I think is irrelevant, Let's talk facts.

Give me some examples of the Pakistani industries that use special high strength steel, what is their annual consumption and where do they import it from? 





Kharral said:


> & You believe high strength steel/metals are only used for submarines and nothing else ?
> 
> 'Low hanging fruits' implies Steels/Metals that are relatively easier to produce compared to something required for Submarines which also have a larger commercial value & usage. For example aluminium & steels for Automotive industry, Small arms, Heavy Machinery, Construction industry ( I know we are already manufacturing steel for construction industry but it could be further improved & expanded )


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## Ultima Thule

Thorough Pro said:


> What I think is irrelevant, Let's talk facts.
> 
> Give me some examples of the Pakistani industries that use special high strength steel, what is their annual consumption and where do they import it from?


May be PAC wanna use it, if we are not trying to expand our industrial capabilities then and relying on foreign imports like high strength steel how can we improve our economy and country sir


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## The Accountant

Thorough Pro said:


> What I think is irrelevant, Let's talk facts.
> 
> Give me some examples of the Pakistani industries that use special high strength steel, what is their annual consumption and where do they import it from?


He has no idea what he is talking about.



seven0seven said:


> May be PAC wanna use it, if we are not trying to expand our industrial capabilities then and relying on foreign imports like high strength steel how can we improve our economy and country sir


Bro you have to analyze demand to make products. If you want to industrialize then work on industries where you have some local demand or you have some kind of edge. For example rather than working on steel industry its much effecient to work on copper industry due to huge copper deposits.

Basic of economics. You invest only on those product where you have demand. So for highly industrial we dont have demand but we have copper ore due to which we can establish a full supply chain of copper products cheaper than other countries so its better to work on copper industry rather than steel industry as youc an compete globally in copper industry whereas steel produce from plants running at lower capacity will be expensive and hence will be in losses.


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## Thorough Pro

PAC? Of course, their next fighter would be made with 12 soot solid high strength stainless steel plates




seven0seven said:


> May be PAC wanna use it, if we are not trying to expand our industrial capabilities then and relying on foreign imports like high strength steel how can we improve our economy and country sir



That's the common disease in Pakistan, the ones who don't know what they are talking about, scream the loudest. 




The Accountant said:


> He has no idea what he is talking about.
> 
> 
> Bro you have to analyze demand to make products. If you want to industrialize then work on industries where you have some local demand or you have some kind of edge. For example rather than working on steel industry its much effecient to work on copper industry due to huge copper deposits.
> 
> Basic of economics. You invest only on those product where you have demand. So for highly industrial we dont have demand but we have copper ore due to which we can establish a full supply chain of copper products cheaper than other countries so its better to work on copper industry rather than steel industry as youc an compete globally in copper industry whereas steel produce from plants running at lower capacity will be expensive and hence will be in losses.

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## Ultima Thule

Thorough Pro said:


> PAC? Of course, their next fighter would be made with 12 soot solid high strength stainless steel plates
> AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR STUPID LOGICS SIR WHY WE INITIATE PROJECTS LIKE AGOSTA 90B/F22P/AND NOW TYPE 54A/HANGORE CLASS SUBMARINES I KNOW A DEMAND AND SUPPLY RULES BUT IF WE GET THESE TYPE OF TECH WITH TOT DEMAND WILL APPEAR IN FUTURE RELYING ON FOREIGN COUNTRY IS NOT GOOD THING SIR THAT'S HOW WE CAN IMPROVE OUR ECONOMY AND COUNTRY SIR
> 
> 
> That's the common disease in Pakistan, the ones who don't know what they are talking about, scream the loudest.


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## The Accountant

Thorough Pro said:


> PAC? Of course, their next fighter would be made with 12 soot solid high strength stainless steel plates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the common disease in Pakistan, the ones who don't know what they are talking about, scream the loudest.


12 soot ... loolzzzz


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## Ultima Thule

Thorough Pro said:


> PAC? Of course, their next fighter would be made with 12 soot solid high strength stainless steel plates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the common disease in Pakistan, the ones who don't know what they are talking about, scream the loudest.


YOU'RE NOT LOOKING AT THE FUTURE PERSPECTIVE SIR WE BUILD CAN BUILD OUR OWN SUBS/NAVAL SHIPS/INDUSTRIAL MACHINES/MANUFACTURING MACHINES BY OUR OWN THAT'S CALLED SELF RESILIENCE AND ALL REDEVELOPING COUNTRIES ARE LOOKING FOR IT SIR


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## War Historian

seven0seven said:


> YOU'RE NOT LOOKING AT THE FUTURE PERSPECTIVE SIR WE BUILD CAN BUILD OUR OWN SUBS/NAVAL SHIPS/INDUSTRIAL MACHINES/MANUFACTURING MACHINES BY OUR OWN THAT'S CALLED SELF RESILIENCE AND ALL REDEVELOPING COUNTRIES ARE LOOKING FOR IT SIR


Bro no one here for country's self reliance. In our defence department the only thing, import every thing and make mall for after retirement plans.
From new jets, sub, frigates, corvette, marine services, MBT , new upgrading logistic vehicles, each and every thing using engines, electronics, metals of special grade and characteristics needed. But we will only import all these items. And put the " Made in Pakistan " sticker on it, and present in front on nation and international forums to make ourselves continue fool.
That's all case closed.

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## Kharral

@Thorough Pro @The Accountant



Thorough Pro said:


> What I think is irrelevant, Let's talk facts.
> 
> Give me some examples of the Pakistani industries that use special high strength steel, what is their annual consumption and where do they import it from?



As far as I am aware we are not even in the top 20 nations in terms of Steel/Alloys/Metals production.
I am no professor but I can tell you this, all those countries in that list are doing much better than us economically.

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## Bossman

You are wrong, Pakistan is producing 100 of thousands of 70 and 110 CC motorcycle engines. In Pakistan it’s cottages. Honda and maybe United produces almost 100% of the 70 and 110 CC engine for their bikes. For the other brands. There are two three companies that produce engine blocks and few other parts. Other engine parts are a made by hundred of workshops and assembled by the 30 odd bike brands in Pakistan.

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## Thorough Pro

You are correct that I am not looking at future prospects because I am seeing the present.
Presently we can't even design or make a simple gunboat or tug, that's why I don't us making anything in the next 20 years on our own. We paid millions to France for TOT on the Agosta's, for what? to order more from China.

You are suggesting to put the cart before the horses, it never works like that. You don't make the dough unless you have to oven.




seven0seven said:


> YOU'RE NOT LOOKING AT THE FUTURE PERSPECTIVE SIR WE BUILD CAN BUILD OUR OWN SUBS/NAVAL SHIPS/INDUSTRIAL MACHINES/MANUFACTURING MACHINES BY OUR OWN THAT'S CALLED SELF RESILIENCE AND ALL REDEVELOPING COUNTRIES ARE LOOKING FOR IT SIR


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## TheTallGuy

Food for thought!
we are manufacturing 100% rocket engines (Liquid & solid) in house (Talk about metallurgy!)but we chose not to make engine for tanks..its not that we cant manufacture it we can we have the ability it just resource and expense prioritization.

Aircraft Engine well that is black art but we can manufacture R11/R13/ATAR 9K50 and may be RD93 today if we want to 100% in house but we dont...but we do manufacture cruise missile engines..100% in house.

Twist and turns in this labyrinth!

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## Thorough Pro

Don't talk stupid. How many motorcycles run in the country? how many motorcycle manufacturers make engines locally? It all about economics. You don't start producing raw material hoping someone would set up an industry to consume it. you first set up the industry and import the materials, once the consumption reaches a certain level that making it locally becomes economically viable, then someone would see the opportunity to make profit and would start making it automatically. 




War Historian said:


> Bro no one here for country's self reliance. In our defence department the only thing, import every thing and make mall for after retirement plans.
> From new jets, sub, frigates, corvette, marine services, MBT , new upgrading logistic vehicles, each and every thing using engines, electronics, metals of special grade and characteristics needed. But we will only import all these items. And put the " Made in Pakistan " sticker on it, and present in front on nation and international forums to make ourselves continue fool.
> That's all case closed.



name one company that is "making" engines here and not assembling them? I'll get corrected.



Bossman said:


> You are wrong, Pakistan is producing 100 of thousands of 70 and 110 CC motorcycle engines. In Pakistan it’s cottages. Honda and maybe United produces almost 100% of the 70 and 110 CC engine for their bikes. For the other brands. There are two three companies that produce engine blocks and few other parts. Other engine parts are a made by hundred of workshops and assembled by the 30 odd bike brands in Pakistan.


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## Safriz

War Historian said:


> Bro no one here for country's self reliance. In our defence department the only thing, import every thing and make mall for after retirement plans.
> From new jets, sub, frigates, corvette, marine services, MBT , new upgrading logistic vehicles, each and every thing using engines, electronics, metals of special grade and characteristics needed. But we will only import all these items. And put the " Made in Pakistan " sticker on it, and present in front on nation and international forums to make ourselves continue fool.
> That's all case closed.


I wonder why army haters like you are here on a "Defence forum" where we glorify the army.
Why don't you nugget off to Siasar dot ok or some pmln forum?

Plus what exactly your hate filled comment has to do with the thread?

Vomit your hate elsewhere .

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## Readerdefence

Hi if possible for senior member to put up some complaint against the irrelevant posts to be deleted or warn the members to post the relevant knowledge about the thread so a layman like me can get some knowledge from this forum 
Thank you


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## ARMalik

Here is a question for all you geniuses who are whinging about "metallurgy" -- a country needs *highest expertise *in "metallurgy" to become a *Nuclear Power*. So how come Pakistan is a Nuclear Power but according to you does not have expertise in metallurgy??

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## War Historian

Safriz said:


> I wonder why army haters like you are here on a "Defence forum" where we glorify the army.
> Why don't you nugget off to Siasar dot ok or some pmln forum?
> 
> Plus what exactly your hate filled comment has to do with the thread?
> 
> Vomit your hate elsewhere .


Keep your hate and love limited to your self don't impose on others. My three generations are connected with Pakistan army. So don't you act like that people feel for you.
دیگ سے چمچہ زیادہ گرم ہے

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## Thorough Pro

Just like you don't to a brain surgeon to carry out your heart surgery, you don't go to a nuclear scientist to make steel. Metallurgy is a very vast field. besides the question is not of expertise, rather than the industry itself.

Question was raised that we should have industry churning out special steel and my objection/counter-argument was where is the industry to consume it? no one sets up and tandoor if there are no household s to buy a roti, and we are talking about special high strength steel.




ARMalik said:


> Here is a question for all you geniuses who are whinging about "metallurgy" -- a country needs *highest expertise *in "metallurgy" to become a *Nuclear Power*. So how come Pakistan is a Nuclear Power but according to you does not have expertise in metallurgy??

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## ARMalik

Thorough Pro said:


> Just like you don't to a brain surgeon to carry out your heart surgery, you don't go to a nuclear scientist to make steel. Metallurgy is a very vast field.



_*"Metallurgy it is vast field" *_- is that your "come-back" line to say you don't really know the ABC of metallurgy? Really? 

So for your education - there are two distinct branches/areas within metallurgy. These are *chemical metallurgy and physical metallurgy*. Now tell me which is the area where Pakistan does not have the expertise? Can you elaborate?


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## Thorough Pro

Read the very next sentence of my post from where you took the highlighted part, just to re-iterate for you, I said the question was not about expertise in metallurgy




ARMalik said:


> _*"Metallurgy it is vast field" *_- is that your "come-back" line to say you don't really know the ABC of metallurgy? Really?
> 
> So for your education - there are two distinct branches/areas within metallurgy. These are *chemical metallurgy and physical metallurgy*. Now tell me which is the area where Pakistan does not have the expertise? Can you elaborate?


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## ARMalik

Thorough Pro said:


> Read the very next sentence of my post from where you took the highlighted part, just to re-iterate for you, I said the question was not about expertise in metallurgy



The basic economic viability model for an specific industry is the responsibility of so called civilian governments, and which by the way has never really existed in Pakistan. Whereas, It is a well know fact that Military in Pakistan has always *done its own thing*, and has never waited for any civilian industrial set-up or support because it knows the *incompetence *of the civilian industrial base in Pakistan. Hence from agriculture, food, and all the way to specialty steel, all the *expertise are in-house, embedded *within the Military Establishment.


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## sparten

Making jet engines domestically is not feasible now. It might be an option later.


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## Safriz

War Historian said:


> Keep your hate and love limited to your self don't impose on others. My three generations are connected with Pakistan army. So don't you act like that people feel for you.
> دیگ سے چمچہ زیادہ گرم ہے


Did I ask about your family history?
I asked about the relevance of your comments with the thread which is none.
And yes there is plenty of hate oozing from your comments.
Military retirement plans have nothing to do with the thread and yet you clearly have. a problem with that and want soldiers to beg on the streets after retirement.
However of I believe what you wrote about your family, so basically you are enjoying the same retirement plan you criticized.
Stupidly at its worst

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## Tipu7

ARMalik said:


> Here is a question for all you geniuses who are whinging about "metallurgy" -- a country needs *highest expertise *in "metallurgy" to become a *Nuclear Power*. So how come Pakistan is a Nuclear Power but according to you does not have expertise in metallurgy??


Because different projects demand different types of material for construction. Developing expertise in one area does not mean that expertise can be developed in other areas too. Each branch demands its own set of materials, ranging from composites to alloys of varying properties and manufacturing process, thus demanding consistent and comprehensive research in every department separately.
For example the alloy materials used in construction of our domestically produced centrifuges (P1 & P2) are very different from the materials which are used in blades of turbo fan or turboshaft engines. If we do not have requisite R&D in those materials, investment is not there and the relevant apparatus & know-how is absent, then those engines cannot be made.
We often over-estimate ourselves by saying that "Pakistan main talent ki kami nhi he". Yeah, correct. But talent alone is not everything. For harvesting that talent, requirement, investment, research, experience, infrastructure and policy framework is crucial, and sadly we are not good in either of it.

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## War Historian

Safriz said:


> Did I ask about your family history?
> I asked about the relevance of your comments with the thread which is none.
> And yes there is plenty of hate oozing from your comments.
> Military retirement plans have nothing to do with the thread and yet you clearly have. a problem with that and want soldiers to beg on the streets after retirement.
> However of I believe what you wrote about your family, so basically you are enjoying the same retirement plan you criticized.
> Stupidly at its worst


You are afraid of after retirement begging in the streets. Soldiers and low rank officer always depends on Al Mighty Allah, generals who looks towards usa europe. 
Next time not quote me in your messages. Thanks in advance.


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## Safriz

War Historian said:


> You are afraid of after retirement begging in the streets. Soldiers and low rank officer always depends on Al Mighty Allah, generals who looks towards usa europe.
> Next time not quote me in your messages. Thanks in advance.


Oh shut up weirdo.
Go suck your thumb .
Generals have done great in defending the country and welfare of military personnel.
The topic of the thread is "Hangor class submarine" not generals.
That's what happened to your generation. Grew up watching Indian cable TV then went on to do British education written by some Indian in London as GCSE .
Totally Indian with Pakistani nationality.
What a shame

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## War Historian

Safriz said:


> Oh shut up weirdo.
> Go suck your thumb .
> Generals have done great in defending the country and welfare of military personnel.
> The topic of the thread is "Hangor class submarine" not generals.
> That's what happened to your generation. Grew up watching Indian cable TV then went on to do British education written by some Indian in London as GCSE .
> Totally Indian with Pakistani nationality.
> What a shame


Your way of talking shows your family back ground.

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## Safriz

War Historian said:


> Your way of talking shows your family back ground.


Yes it does. We don't take idiots lightly. Next.

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## Tank131

Both of you are derailing this thread. Kindly take the political argument elsewhere.

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## araz

Thorough Pro said:


> PAC? Of course, their next fighter would be made with 12 soot solid high strength stainless steel plates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the common disease in Pakistan, the ones who don't know what they are talking about, scream the loudest.


I think one has to agree there isa need for a specialized steel plant. I fully agree that we need not jump onto jet engine manufacturing but can start with Car and bike engines, progressing on to heavy duty diesel engines which could be both for trucks and modified ones for Tanks,tractors and heavy duty machinery. I agree we need to rejuvinate thesteel industry but how is another story. WhatI have failed to understand is with so much of building work on going, the Steel mill was shut down.
A

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> I think one has to agree there isa need for a specialized steel plant. I fully agree that we need not jump onto jet engine manufacturing but can start with Car and bike engines, progressing on to heavy duty diesel engines which could be both for trucks and modified ones for Tanks,tractors and heavy duty machinery. I agree we need to rejuvinate thesteel industry but how is another story. WhatI have failed to understand is with so much of building work on going, the Steel mill was shut down.
> A


for that, the whole mindset of procurement has to change from "imported" to local.
the two political dynasties in Pakistan(which will remain for the foreseen future and will take back control soon or later) have no interest in manufacturing, they like the Dubai model..the reason why from the very onset both of their policies fundamentally relied on services and trade

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## khanasifm

Interesting Dalphe class Hangor boat that sunk IN ship in 71 had 12 tube 8 in the from and 4 in the rear and the boat sailed with weapons in the tubes or max load of 12 torpedos or missiles


Wonder why newer boats donot have tubes in the rear which cover rear aspect targets ??

may be newer boats are more agile ??

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## xbat

May be new torpedoes can turn to back? what torpedo did they fire? 
even in falkand war brits subs sunk argentine vessels with ww2 torpedoes.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Where are those Submarines ? It is 2020

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## ARMalik

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Where are those Submarines ? It is 2020



Probably in a cafe having coffee.


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## Armchair

TheTallGuy said:


> Food for thought!
> we are manufacturing 100% rocket engines (Liquid & solid) in house (Talk about metallurgy!)but we chose not to make engine for tanks..its not that we cant manufacture it we can we have the ability it just resource and expense prioritization.
> 
> Aircraft Engine well that is black art but we can manufacture R11/R13/ATAR 9K50 and may be RD93 today if we want to 100% in house but we dont...but we do manufacture cruise missile engines..100% in house.
> 
> Twist and turns in this labyrinth!



Pakistan's biggest enemy in industrial development is within. Extreme p!ss poor management. Why this is so is either corruption, incompetence and nepotism or treason. Or a mix of both. @messiach used to suggest treason.

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## Tipu7

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Where are those Submarines ? It is 2020


Two subs under-construction in China. The steel cutting of Pakistan based subs is likely to take place by end of 2021.

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## araz

Safriz said:


> Oh shut up weirdo.
> Go suck your thumb .
> Generals have done great in defending the country and welfare of military personnel.
> The topic of the thread is "Hangor class submarine" not generals.
> That's what happened to your generation. Grew up watching Indian cable TV then went on to do British education written by some Indian in London as GCSE .
> Totally Indian with Pakistani nationality.
> What a shame


Please report posts rather than responding. 
Kind regards
A


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## Safriz

araz said:


> Please report posts rather than responding.
> Kind regards
> A


I agree.
But we use our own time and knowledge to write comments over here and someone coming round and taking out of ignorance, can get quite frustrating.

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## Syed1.

ziaulislam said:


> for that, the whole mindset of procurement has to change from "imported" to local.
> the two political dynasties in Pakistan(which will remain for the foreseen future and will take back control soon or later) have no interest in manufacturing, they like the Dubai model..the reason why from the very onset both of their policies fundamentally relied on services and trade


This is where I really like what the US does. Having worked with US companies often times government contracts outrightly says in bold text right at the top that product will only be accepted if it is made in America. They are quite anal about it, we sometimes have a laugh about it in Canada but honestly it is an excellent method to develop local industry. Often America products don't have a simple Made in America/USA written on them, it says "Produced with pride in the United States of America". Kisi wajah se yeh quam dunya pe raaj kar rahi hai. 

Now what is preventing the government of Pakistan to putting a clause in all their contracts that materials, items will have to be made in Pakistan. That itself will incentivize multiple industries to setup production here. Sadly Pakistani mentality is to give precedence to "imported" items. Motorway construction is going on, multiple dams are being built and a new railway line is about to be put in the country. Our steel and cement industries should have been showing double digit growth to fulfill all these demands. Instead easy way out is often found just to import it. Pakistan is one of the top 10 importers of steel in the world. This is treasonous against 5th largest nation in the world and nuclear power, that it isn't even allowed to meet its own steel needs.

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## araz

Safriz said:


> I agree.
> But we use our own time and knowledge to write comments over here and someone coming round and taking out of ignorance, can get quite frustrating.


Fully agreed and thank you for the response. However your response not only mars the taste of the forum as well as make you angry and upset but could get you into trouble. I have 3 principles which make my life so much more simpler. 
A. Agree to disagree and move on.
B. Report posts which are a usive not only to me but to others.
C. Put idiots on ignore list and move on.
Honestly do try it and see how much pleasanter life becomes.
PS: these rules are strictly for the use on internet fora. If you are married and use these you are in BIG trouble. HaaHaa

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## Tipu7

As per an Indian based Twitter account, this is the first under construction Submarine of Pakistan Navy.
(Credibility dubious)

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## untitled

Tipu7 said:


> As per an Indian based Twitter account, this is the first under construction Hangoor class SSK of Pakistan Navy.
> (Credibility dubious)
> 
> @Rashid Mahmood
> 
> View attachment 660012


Looks like an Australian submarine




https://defbrief.com/2020/06/01/australian-companies-turn-to-cold-spray-for-submarine-part-repairs/

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## Tamiyah

Tipu7 said:


> As per an Indian based Twitter account, this is the first under construction Submarine of Pakistan Navy.
> (Credibility dubious)
> 
> View attachment 660012


Do we have any picture of Type 39A so we can confirm?


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## truthseeker2010

Tipu7 said:


> As per an Indian based Twitter account, this is the first under construction Submarine of Pakistan Navy.
> (Credibility dubious)
> 
> View attachment 660012



thats australian collins class.

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## Dazzler

Tipu7 said:


> As per an Indian based Twitter account, this is the first under construction Submarine of Pakistan Navy.
> (Credibility dubious)
> 
> View attachment 660012


It's not a yuan/39/41 series

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## Tipu7

Dazzler said:


> It's not a yuan/39/41 series


Yeah. That idiot got me. 


truthseeker2010 said:


> thats australian collins class.





untitled said:


> Looks like an Australian submarine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://defbrief.com/2020/06/01/australian-companies-turn-to-cold-spray-for-submarine-part-repairs/

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## untitled

Tipu7 said:


> Yeah. That idiot got me.


That twitter account you quoted appears to be pretty lazy. Not sure what it's motives were but if you search "submarine construction" that collins class sub image is one of the first to pop up


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## Rashid Mahmood

Tipu7 said:


> As per an Indian based Twitter account, this is the first under construction Submarine of Pakistan Navy.
> (Credibility dubious)
> 
> View attachment 660012



Can you believe a country who are delusional.
It isn't even an under construction sub.

This is NOT that submarine.

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## maverick1977

i am going to be way off, but I hope there is one to 3 VL tubes for MIRV based SLBMs.

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## S A L M A N.

Had successive governments not allowed the Pakistan Steel Mills to go to the dogs, we could have ventured into the manufacturing of specialty steels. But the PSM never broke even. By the time it was completed, Bhutto's nationalization had ravaged the entire local heavy industry. There was no demand for steel any longer. You can not sustain a steelmaker having 1M tons/annum capacity by supplying maraging steel to KRL and rolling stock to the Pakistan Railways, which itself was going to the dogs. 
This, coupled by the political appointments by the PPP and the rise of private steelmakers making rebars for the construction industry using steel scrap effectively sealed the PSM's fate. 
It is a shame that a nuclear nation does not have an indigenous multi-purpose steelmaking capability. We can't even manufacture pressure vessels (read: thetthe primary ingredient for nuclear reactors) according to international standards.
The HMC-3 of the PAEC is said to have this capability but the PAEC itself is a huge behemoth of an organization - a typical bunch of good-for-nothing paper pushers and bean counters who haven't done anything worth mentioning since 1998. The nuclear weaponization job was taken away from them around 2000.

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## Sifar zero

Will this submarine have soft kill measures like the upgraded Agosta 90 submarines?


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## FuturePAF

Tesla battery advancements recently announced may lead to significant advancement in applications like AIP Submarines. If these submarines can utilize a pump-jet efficiently in a diesel electric AIP submarine, it would narrow the gap between a conventionally powered submarine and a nuclear powered submarine.






More details on the chemistry and design; AIP would probably made with the Nickel+Manganese option at 12:10

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## FuturePAF

maverick1977 said:


> i am going to be way off, but I hope there is one to 3 VL tubes for MIRV based SLBMs.



Perhaps a design with 4 VL tubes would be a better option at modest increase in cost.

three longer range (range somewhere between the JL-1A and the JL-2) missiles with MIRVs and 1 tube housing 3 short range Single warhead missiles in the 1000 km range will give flexible second strike options to the SPD. Only 6 missiles with a total of 9 warheads per submarine maybe a minimally credible force.

Even a fleet of just of 3 conventionally powered submarines with this kind of firepower would tie up Indian planners and maintain the credible deterrence doctrine with a robust leg of the triad in anticipation of their ASW capabilities.

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## maverick1977

FuturePAF said:


> Perhaps a design with 4 VL tubes would be a better option at modest increase in cost.
> 
> three longer range (range somewhere between the JL-1A and the JL-2) missiles with MIRVs and 1 tube housing 3 short range Single warhead missiles in the 1000 km range will give flexible second strike options to the SPD. Only 6 missiles with a total of 9 warheads per submarine maybe a minimally credible force.
> 
> Even a fleet of fleet of 3 conventionally powered submarines with this kind of firepower would tie up Indian planners and maintain the credible deterrence doctrine with a robust leg of the triad in anticipation of their ASW capabilities.




its a wait and see, the first boomer shoukd br delivered at the end of 2022?

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## GriffinsRule

FuturePAF said:


> Tesla battery advancements recently announced may lead to significant advancement in applications like AIP Submarines. If these submarines can utilize a pump-jet efficiently in a diesel electric AIP submarine, it would narrow the gap between a conventionally powered submarine and a nuclear powered submarine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More details on the chemistry and design; AIP would probably made with the Nickel+Manganese option at 12:10


There is a reason why no one can compete with American engineering once they set their minds towards accomplishing something. Have a vision and then go after it, but dont stop at the initial success but keep on improving it further and further till no one can compete with you on equal terms.

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## FuturePAF

GriffinsRule said:


> There is a reason why no one can compete with American engineering once they set their minds towards accomplishing something. Have a vision and then go after it, but dont stop at the initial success but keep on improving it further and further till no one can compete with you on equal terms.



It not only about success, but how a culture deals with and processes failure. In Asian cultures, failure is seen as disgraceful, sometimes to the point of discouraging someone trying again. The fear of failure make many shy of even trying.

For those that are sucessful, they may not be able to fully benefit from the fruits of their innovation.

Patent law is strong in the US, and along with production capabilities, patents and trademarks; intellectual property in general, is a huge party of why many companies can attract the investment to grow when they have a great idea.

Couple all of this with workers giving large pieces of their earnings to invest into these companies in the form of 401Ks, and you have fertile ground for new innovations to grow exponentially and dominate whole industries.

America provides the right environment for entrepreneurs and it shows in its leading companies, which were no where to be found even a few decades ago.

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## ARMalik

Well the way things are going with these Submarines, all of us will turn *100 years old men *before these subs are delivered to Pakistan sometimes next century!!   .. By that time, hopefully Mankind would have developed Starships and colonized a few planets !

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## Yasser76

ARMalik said:


> Well the way things are going with these Submarines, all of us will turn *100 years old men *before these subs are delivered to Pakistan sometimes next century!!   .. By that time, hopefully Mankind would have developed Starships and colonized a few planets !



I guess some perspective may not hurt here. Pakistan signed Hangor deal in 2015, just 5 years ago.

Agosta 90B deal was signed in 1992 and first sub delivered 7 years later in 1999. 


To put it further perspective 

IN signed Scorpene deal in 2005, and only got their first sub in 2018. 13 years later.

RAN Collins class ordered in 1987 and entered service in 1996

Malaysia ordered Scorpene in 2001, first boat in service 2009

First Israeli Dolphin class was ordered in 1989 and commissioned on 1999.

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## R Wing

FuturePAF said:


> It not only about success, but how a culture deals with and processes failure. In Asian cultures, failure is seen as disgraceful, sometimes to the point of discouraging someone trying again. The fear of failure make many shy of even trying.
> 
> For those that are sucessful, they may not be able to fully benefit from the fruits of their innovation.
> 
> Patent law is strong in the US, and along with production capabilities, patents and trademarks; intellectual property in general, is a huge party of why many companies can attract the investment to grow when they have a great idea.
> 
> Couple all of this with workers giving large pieces of their earnings to invest into these companies in the form of 401Ks, and you have fertile ground for new innovations to grow exponentially and dominate whole industries.
> 
> America provides the right environment for entrepreneurs and it shows in its leading companies, which were no where to be found even a few decades ago.



Absolutely agree.

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## Yasser76

ARMalik said:


> Well the way things are going with these Submarines, all of us will turn *100 years old men *before these subs are delivered to Pakistan sometimes next century!!   .. By that time, hopefully Mankind would have developed Starships and colonized a few planets !



You got your answer

*Pakistan’s New Type-039B AIP Submarines: Image Shows Shipyard Expansion


The Pakistan Navy's expansion is gearing up in Karachi. Major enhancements are evident at a shipyard, where a new construction hall and a dry dock greatly increase capacity. Although details are scarce, it seems likely that the local construction of Chinese-designed AIP (Air Independent Power) submarines will take place there.*
H I Sutton  06 Oct 2020

The eight Type-039B ‘Hangor Class’ submarines will be a major boost to the Pakistan Navy. They will more than double the size of the Pakistan Navy’s submarine fleet.

The new submarines are variant of the Chinese Navy’s Type-039A Yuan Class. Construction will be split between the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) and *Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works* (KSEW) in Karachi. KSEW previously participated in local construction of Pakistan’s French designed Agosta class submarines.

The construction site in Karachi may put to rest previous reports that the subs would be built in Ormara. In 2016 it was reported that the local submarine construction would occur at a new Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) being built there. No significant construction work is evident at Ormara.

The new construction hall and dry dock are at the southern end of KSEW’s Karachi shipyard site. Footings for the halls was first observed in 2015. The twin-lane halls have slowly taken shape since then. The outer shell appears largely complete. Under their roof there should be enough room to build two submarines in parallel.

Work on the aligned dry dock appears to have started in 2016. It is a Norwegian designed _Syncrolift_ ship-lift type built out over the water. Manufacture of the sections likely took place in China. The dry dock is 126m (415 ft) long and 32m (105 ft) across and has a lifting capacity of 7,881 tons. This is large enough for the new submarines, and would allow frigate sized warships and larger submarines in future.

Based on current information the first of the new submarines, built in China, is expected to be delivered in 2022. Local construction of the last four hulls will last through to 2028. The acquisition from China is part of a trend. Several major Pakistan Navy warship programs have gone to China in recent years. And the Pakistan Navy and Chinese Navy already cooperate closely, included close exercises involving Chinese warships and Pakistan Navy submarines.

The construction halls will be conveniently close to the Pakistan Navy’s main submarine berths. They are also just north of the SSGNs (Special Service Group (Navy)) base at PNS Iqbal. This is where the Pakistan Navy’s *X-Craft midget submarine* program is based. It seems logical that any local construction of midget submarines will also take place at the new site.

The technology transfer will benefit KSEW. Their Stirling-based AIP (Air Independent Power/Propulsion) technology is different from the French MESMA system installed on Pakistan’s Agosta-90B type boats. Pakistan remains the only country to adopt the MESMA system. Type-039B submarines are a relatively conservative design however.




The Agosta-90B submarine was moored centrally among the Chinese warships. H I SUTTON. INCLUDES MATERIAL © PLANETSCOPE | ACQUIRED THROUGH SHADOWBREAK INTL
The Type-039B submarines are likely to combine Chinese systems and weapons with Pakistani systems. Local weapons are expected to include the nuclear-capable Babur cruise missile. Armed with these the boats will form part of Pakistan’s nuclear deterrent. How this deterrence role will be reconciled with typical attack submarine duties remains unclear.










Pakistan's New Type-039B AIP Submarines: Image Shows Shipyard Expansion - Naval News


New construction halls and dry dock in Karachi are taking shape. Although official details are scarce, we understand that the new site will be for the local construction of Type-039B AIP submarines for the Pakistan Navy.




www.navalnews.com

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## ARMalik

Yasser76 said:


> You got your answer
> 
> *Pakistan’s New Type-039B AIP Submarines: Image Shows Shipyard Expansion
> 
> 
> The Pakistan Navy's expansion is gearing up in Karachi. Major enhancements are evident at a shipyard, where a new construction hall and a dry dock greatly increase capacity. Although details are scarce, it seems likely that the local construction of Chinese-designed AIP (Air Independent Power) submarines will take place there.*
> H I Sutton  06 Oct 2020
> 
> The eight Type-039B ‘Hangor Class’ submarines will be a major boost to the Pakistan Navy. They will more than double the size of the Pakistan Navy’s submarine fleet.
> 
> The new submarines are variant of the Chinese Navy’s Type-039A Yuan Class. Construction will be split between the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) and *Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works* (KSEW) in Karachi. KSEW previously participated in local construction of Pakistan’s French designed Agosta class submarines.
> 
> The construction site in Karachi may put to rest previous reports that the subs would be built in Ormara. In 2016 it was reported that the local submarine construction would occur at a new Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) being built there. No significant construction work is evident at Ormara.
> 
> The new construction hall and dry dock are at the southern end of KSEW’s Karachi shipyard site. Footings for the halls was first observed in 2015. The twin-lane halls have slowly taken shape since then. The outer shell appears largely complete. Under their roof there should be enough room to build two submarines in parallel.
> 
> Work on the aligned dry dock appears to have started in 2016. It is a Norwegian designed _Syncrolift_ ship-lift type built out over the water. Manufacture of the sections likely took place in China. The dry dock is 126m (415 ft) long and 32m (105 ft) across and has a lifting capacity of 7,881 tons. This is large enough for the new submarines, and would allow frigate sized warships and larger submarines in future.
> 
> Based on current information the first of the new submarines, built in China, is expected to be delivered in 2022. Local construction of the last four hulls will last through to 2028. The acquisition from China is part of a trend. Several major Pakistan Navy warship programs have gone to China in recent years. And the Pakistan Navy and Chinese Navy already cooperate closely, included close exercises involving Chinese warships and Pakistan Navy submarines.
> 
> The construction halls will be conveniently close to the Pakistan Navy’s main submarine berths. They are also just north of the SSGNs (Special Service Group (Navy)) base at PNS Iqbal. This is where the Pakistan Navy’s *X-Craft midget submarine* program is based. It seems logical that any local construction of midget submarines will also take place at the new site.
> 
> The technology transfer will benefit KSEW. Their Stirling-based AIP (Air Independent Power/Propulsion) technology is different from the French MESMA system installed on Pakistan’s Agosta-90B type boats. Pakistan remains the only country to adopt the MESMA system. Type-039B submarines are a relatively conservative design however.
> 
> 
> 
> The Agosta-90B submarine was moored centrally among the Chinese warships. H I SUTTON. INCLUDES MATERIAL © PLANETSCOPE | ACQUIRED THROUGH SHADOWBREAK INTL
> The Type-039B submarines are likely to combine Chinese systems and weapons with Pakistani systems. Local weapons are expected to include the nuclear-capable Babur cruise missile. Armed with these the boats will form part of Pakistan’s nuclear deterrent. How this deterrence role will be reconciled with typical attack submarine duties remains unclear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan's New Type-039B AIP Submarines: Image Shows Shipyard Expansion - Naval News
> 
> 
> New construction halls and dry dock in Karachi are taking shape. Although official details are scarce, we understand that the new site will be for the local construction of Type-039B AIP submarines for the Pakistan Navy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.navalnews.com



Thanks mate, very much appreciated.

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## AMRAAM

So today, in the farewell speech of Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi, he mentioned that 4 submarines are being built in China while 4 are in Pakistan and will be inducted in the coming years.

The disappointing part was that there was no mention of an induction year. It can linger on for years. Maybe in 2030.


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## Kabotar

AMRAAM said:


> So today, in the farewell speech of Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi, he mentioned that 4 submarines are being built in China while 4 are in Pakistan and will be inducted in the coming years.
> 
> The disappointing part was that there was no mention of an induction year. It can linger on for years. Maybe in 2030.



Delivery timeline was disclosed when the deal was signed. First sub in 2022 last sub in 2028.

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## MIRauf

AMRAAM said:


> So today, in the farewell speech of Admiral Zafar Mahmood Abbasi, he mentioned that 4 submarines are being built in China while 4 are in Pakistan and will be inducted in the coming years.
> 
> The disappointing part was that there was no mention of an induction year. It can linger on for years. Maybe in 2030.



It takes quite a bit of time to churn out able body crew for Ship and or Subs. You will need multiple sets of crew as well, the Yuan A-39 will help you churn those out but still it will take time. It's one thing to have the units and its another to be able to operate and utilize them to max capabilities. So don't be too upset if its 2030 and the final 8th is getting fully operational.

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## aziqbal

what we need with these SSK is the ability to have inter-operability with Chinese carrier strike groups 

having submarine launched cruise missiles is also a big must be capability I hope we get 

look Pakistan is strong but we will be much stronger if we can integrate our military with the latest Chinese naval vessels 

same goes for Type 054AP 

image this 

a Pakistani Naval Group made of of 2 x Type 054AP + 1 x SSK joining a full strength Chinese carrier strike group sailing through the Suez or Mediterranean come 2030, image the onlookers 

it will be a great flag showing power projection and others will realise how far both China + Pakistan has come 

we have a great opportunity to show this decade what we can really do

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## Cool_Soldier

Very well on the way to development. Next step would be 052D.


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## TsAr

aziqbal said:


> what we need with these SSK is the ability to have inter-operability with Chinese carrier strike groups
> 
> having submarine launched cruise missiles is also a big must be capability I hope we get
> 
> look Pakistan is strong but we will be much stronger if we can integrate our military with the latest Chinese naval vessels
> 
> same goes for Type 054AP
> 
> image this
> 
> a Pakistani Naval Group made of of 2 x Type 054AP + 1 x SSK joining a full strength Chinese carrier strike group sailing through the Suez or Mediterranean come 2030, image the onlookers
> 
> it will be a great flag showing power projection and others will realise how far both China + Pakistan has come
> 
> we have a great opportunity to show this decade what we can really do


You never know, inter-operability might already be there or in the works. Our forces donot really showoff or announce their full capabilities.

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## FuturePAF

There is a new submarine simulator for anyone interested in Submarine operations










It’s catching up with what navy’s are using to simulate in the training of officers. Potentially a good home simulator for people aspiring to join the navy just like DCS maybe a decent simulator for those looking to join the air force

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## Arsalan

maverick1977 said:


> its a wait and see, the first boomer shoukd br delivered at the end of 2022?


*Boomers *is a name given to Ballistic Missile Submarines, traditionally, Nuclear Powered Ballistic Missile Submarines. Hangoor is not one!

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## maverick1977

Arsalan said:


> *Boomers *is a name given to Ballistic Missile Submarines, traditionally, Nuclear Powered Ballistic Missile Submarines. Hangoor is not one!



It will be a boomer, wait and see  exciting times...

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## Arsalan

maverick1977 said:


> It will be a boomer, wait and see  exciting times...


DELIVERED in 2022? A boomer in 2022?

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## aziqbal

I really do hope we have naval nuclear capability abroad these submarines

PN cant afford SSBN 

we should stick to SSK+ Nuclear missiles only

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## ziaulislam

aziqbal said:


> I really do hope we have naval nuclear capability abroad these submarines
> 
> PN cant afford SSBN
> 
> we should stick to SSK+ Nuclear missiles only


Exactly..we have to look at cost..
We cannot ignore conventional difference despite nuclear deterance..

Regional conflicts might not escalate enough to involve nuclear weapons and nuclear threat might not be enough to stop war


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## Incog_nito

I'm sure PN will be looking to acquire some N-Subs from China too.


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## FuturePAF

Incog_nito said:


> I'm sure PN will be looking to acquire some N-Subs from China too.



Probably best to lease one, to better refine the capabilities we need on our SSK. Endurance, depth, speed, and how many and what type of weapons to carry. A single Type 093 With VLS tubes which can fit the Babur SLCM and a small diameter SLBM. All of this to refine the doctrine.

With battery technology advancing so much, the Hangors could be made to have the exact requirements to meet our needs, just like the Barracuda SSK are being tailor made for the Australian navy to have enough of the SSN capabilities to fit their needs.

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## aziqbal

better than boomer would be to have the Chinese SSK equipped with submarine launched nuclear capable missiles like Israel does 

that would be the first step before SSBN 

SSBN is a something that Pakistan cannot afford right now too costly for construction and operation total waste of manpower and resources 

SSK + nuclear warhead delivery defiantly should be a must 

that way we have army, airforce and navy with nuclear weapons

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## khanasifm

So basically 8 subs are being Custom built for PN plus one 039 will be provided free of cost for training or total 9 does not mean training 039 cannot be used operationally if needed 
With agosta 90b that 12 sub fleet what PN always wanted  in numbers

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## Incog_nito

Let's wait for the 4 Submarines to arrive soon in Pakistan.

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## Aamir Hussain

No boomer! They will have SLCM launch capability which is what we require for precision strike to take out coastal naval comms, ports, & radar installations. Nuclear second strike through SLCM's can be achieved. 

The major Nuclear strike capability will be through land based mobile launchers of med. ranges and air launch tactical nuclear strike delivered by the Air force.

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## Zarvan

Aamir Hussain said:


> No boomer! They will have SLCM launch capability which is what we require for precision strike to take out coastal naval comms, ports, & radar installations. Nuclear second strike through SLCM's can be achieved.
> 
> The major Nuclear strike capability will be through land based mobile launchers of med. ranges and air launch tactical nuclear strike delivered by the Air force.


What on earth are we buying. We ordered Type 54 A in 2017, and as China was already using them, even with some changes still we are getting second Type 54, and soon will have third one also and then fourth. We ordered our so called Type 39 B in 2015. If they were really Type 39 B we would have at least gotten two by now. But we don't even have one in fact not even news of where construction is. So I am pretty sure what we have ordered is not Type 39 B or even close to it. Like seriously what on earth are we buying. Why we haven't even gotten our first sub. 

@Rashid Mahmood @Thorough Pro @Maarkhor @Path-Finder @The Eagle @Arsalan

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## Thorough Pro

Subs from China will be delivered well ahead of the schedule. PN is acquiring two different types of subs.
Did anyone ever ask why two types while getting all 8 of the same type would have made more logistical sense? Without going in to details, PN is getting some serious capabilities and it knows how to put a lid on loose lips unlike Airforce, which has more showboating individuals

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Subs from China will be delivered well ahead of the schedule. PN is acquiring two different types of subs.
> Did anyone ever ask why two types while getting all 8 of the same type would have made more logistical sense? Without going in to details, PN is getting some serious capabilities and it knows how to put a lid on loose lips unlike Airforce, which has more showboating individuals


I mean it's safe to assume what we are buying is not Type 39 B or its slightly upgraded model.

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## White and Green with M/S

Thorough Pro said:


> Subs from China will be delivered well ahead of the schedule. PN is acquiring two different types of subs.
> Did anyone ever ask why two types while getting all 8 of the same type would have made more logistical sense? Without going in to details, PN is getting some serious capabilities and it knows how to put a lid on loose lips unlike Airforce, which has more showboating individuals


What 2 type of subs we are getting please explain bit more sir hangor class and other type of subs??? Is this other type of subs will also come from China or from some other country???

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> What on earth are we buying. We ordered Type 54 A in 2017, and as China was already using them, even with some changes still we are getting second Type 54, and soon will have third one also and then fourth. We ordered our so called Type 39 B in 2015. If they were really Type 39 B we would have at least gotten two by now. But we don't even have one in fact not even news of where construction is. So I am pretty sure what we have ordered is not Type 39 B or even close to it. Like seriously what on earth are we buying. Why we haven't even gotten our first sub.
> 
> @Rashid Mahmood @Thorough Pro @Maarkhor @Path-Finder @The Eagle @Arsalan



As far as I can comment, remember the pattern of induction & production by/for PN in recent years. We ain't buying any product in its advertised form. PN has embarked totally different yet advance process for new weapons/platforms given the fact to rapidly changing warfare strategies. So, conclusively, either the Subs or those FFG/Corvettes; are different for their roles. Secondly, you will never their true capability which is plausible & secrecy is the key of success for the surprise element when push come to shove. Lastly, Subs production as totally different game and takes more time in production as compare to surface platforms. However, given the capability and production rate, China is expected to finish this project before time and PN is confident in this regard. Just hold a random search and you will understand the production time period due to complex technique and requirements for Submarines. We are going to have total 8 (4 to be built in Pakistan and 4 in China). China will deliver these subs in 2023 while we signed agreement in July, 2015.

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## Thorough Pro

PN is acquiring a total of 8 subs which comprise of two very different types. I won't tell what types and capabilities or how many of what type.



White and Green with M/S said:


> What 2 type of subs we are getting please explain bit more sir hangor class and other type of subs??? Is this other type of subs will also come from China or from some other country???


no guessing, let the enemy guess. Rest assured PN is getting some significant offensive capabilities and subs are only one part of the total capability.



Zarvan said:


> I mean it's safe to assume what we are buying is not Type 39 B or its slightly upgraded model.

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> PN is acquiring a total of 8 subs which comprise of two very different types. I won't tell what types and capabilities or how many of what type.
> 
> 
> no guessing, let the enemy guess. Rest assured PN is getting some significant offensive capabilities and subs are only one part of the total capability.













My only hope and wish and dua is that our submarines turn out something similar to these shown in above pictures. If we have these kind of firepower. We can unleash hell on Mumbai and Bangalore and Hyderabad and Chennai if India messes with or us carry out Missile strikes it was planning to carry out after 27th February humiliation. 

@The Eagle

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## Thorough Pro

When Pakistan tested it's first SLCM, how many people knew PN had that capability for some time? and some people still think that was fired from a pontoon. What capabilities PN has acquired should remain a secret. I am son of a naval warrior (1954, 1965, 1971), I know the importance of "loose lips sink ships"










Zarvan said:


> View attachment 712060
> 
> View attachment 712061
> 
> 
> My only hope and wish and dua is that our submarines turn out something similar to these shown in above pictures. If we have these kind of firepower. We can unleash hell on Mumbai and Bangalore and Hyderabad and Chennai if India messes with or us carry out Missile strikes it was planning to carry out after 27th February humiliation.
> 
> @The Eagle

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## Incog_nito

Any images/pictures of these 4 Hangor class submarines that will going to be delivered to Pakistan?
And what about the 4 remaining that will going to be constructed in Pakistan?


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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 712060
> 
> View attachment 712061
> 
> 
> My only hope and wish and dua is that our submarines turn out something similar to these shown in above pictures. If we have these kind of firepower. We can unleash hell on Mumbai and Bangalore and Hyderabad and Chennai if India messes with or us carry out Missile strikes it was planning to carry out after 27th February humiliation.
> 
> @The Eagle



Rest assured, PN procurements are not as the equipment is being advertised. A versatile, need based, required tech and doctrine supporting approach is being practiced. In simple words, a transition from evolution to revolution is being done. I can't recall correctly which thread, but as I said earlier, white uniform is coming slow at all in regard to offensive yet advance capability with totally different yet upgraded modality practice. I really wish & pray that none of us may ever talk about the true fire power of these assets. Have faith brother. From SLCM, VLS, an interesting capability of torpedo tubes to Sea Sultans, advance, modern & close to heavy tonnage but frigates & corvettes .......... above all the Hangor..... and those PN supersonic missiles. welcome to modern & most advanced Pakistan Navy.

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## Dash

Gents help me clear some doubts here. Is it true that the Hangoor class subs are delayed because Germany is delaying providing engines for the subs:


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## The Eagle

Dash said:


> Gents help me clear some doubts here. Is it true that the Hangoor class subs are delayed because Germany is delaying providing engines for the subs:



False report.

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## Dash

The Eagle said:


> False report.


Ok


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## sparten

I have heard that the Tranche II of the _Hangors_ will be SSNs.


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## Hassan Guy

How to not build a submarine

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## khanasifm

041 yuan class 









Yuan Type 039A / B / C – Type 041 submarine Yuan Class


The Type 039A submarine (NATO reporting name: Yuan-class) is a class of diesel-electric submarine in China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy. It is China’s first AIP powered submari…




thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com


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## Thorough Pro

White and Green with M/S said:


> What 2 type of subs we are getting please explain bit more sir hangor class and other type of subs??? Is this other type of subs will also come from China or from some other country???

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## Ghessan

Thorough Pro said:


> View attachment 722115



wow thats big, you are committed! 👍


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## SD 10

any news on our subs? what are we getting and when?


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## sparten

End of this year.


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## khanasifm

All Chinese made 4 by 24/25 and all 4 kew by 2028


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## khanasifm

This Swedish Submarine that Sank a US Aircraft Carrier | Brand-new, nuclear powered, capable of carrying twice as many aircraft as most competing foreign carriers, and protected by an entire task force... the... | By Dark Documentaries | Facebook


2.1M views, 3.3K likes, 88 loves, 346 comments, 1.2K shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Dark Documentaries: Brand-new, nuclear powered, capable of carrying twice as many aircraft as most competing...




fb.watch





AIP sub against usn task force


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*These might be our Subs!*
Two Yuan Class Submarines can be seen in the latest satellite imagery of the Wuchang shipyard in Wuhan, below.




According to H I Sutton, a renowned naval expert and analyst "multiple Type-039A/B Yuan Class submarines are being built at the Wuchang shipyard outside Wuhan. The Yuan Class is China's most modern in-service diesel-electric submarine. It is in some respects the "kiloization" of the preceding Song Class. But it differs significantly from either the song or KILO class boats by being equipped with Air Independent power (AIP).





The Wuchang yard is likely involved in both domestic and export production. The Royal Thai Navy's first submarine is known to be under construction there, *and the Pakistan Navy's are likely too.








H I Sutton - Covert Shores


*

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Looks formidable....

Top Hindutva Brahmins, along with Marwaris/Parsis/Jains etc. with blood sucking money, will now relocate to Dubai leaving their Dalits behind.....

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Looks formidable....


Hopefully these Subs will restore the balance of power in the region.


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## maverick1977

I am sure there are bunch of surprises packed in this Sub.


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## Ghessan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *These might be our Subs!*
> Two Yuan Class Submarines can be seen in the latest satellite imagery of the Wuchang shipyard in Wuhan, below.
> View attachment 724895
> According to H I Sutton, a renowned naval expert and analyst "multiple Type-039A/B Yuan Class submarines are being built at the Wuchang shipyard outside Wuhan. The Yuan Class is China's most modern in-service diesel-electric submarine. It is in some respects the "kiloization" of the preceding Song Class. But it differs significantly from either the song or KILO class boats by being equipped with Air Independent power (AIP).
> 
> View attachment 724898
> 
> The Wuchang yard is likely involved in both domestic and export production. The Royal Thai Navy's first submarine is known to be under construction there, *and the Pakistan Navy's are likely too.
> 
> View attachment 724899
> 
> 
> 
> 
> H I Sutton - Covert Shores
> 
> 
> *



dying to hear some news about em ...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Sure has taken a very long time 2015-2021 , almost 6 years and not a single submarine delivered


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## Yasser76

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Sure has taken a very long time 2015-2021 , almost 6 years and not a single submarine delivered



Not long at all. 

First Khalid sub took 7 years (ordered in 1992, commissioned in 1998)
First IN Scorpene ordered in 2005 delivered in 2017, took 12 years


Chinese are working very fast you will find. Especially if the boats pictured are ours, than that is incredible speed.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well I was thinking may be we will at least see first of 2 Submarines done by now


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## Yasser76

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well I was thinking may be we will at least see first of 2 Submarines done by now



Sub construction is a slow business, also remember it is highly likely that China is making a unqiue sub (based on Yuan class) for Pakistani requirements. If we are adding Pak weapons or some sort of cruise missile capability and possibly Turkish systems, than that would require some more design time too


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## MIRauf

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Hopefully these Subs will restore the balance of power in the region.


Not till SSNs are inducted, need speed and Endurance to get to station around Mumbai, Mangalore, Chennai or Bay of Bengal if PN wants to project an true offensive posture. SSNs will put IN Flat Tops on back foot deep in their own territory along with forcing IN to use P-8Is along their own cost line. 

PN doesn't have an Friendly Naval Station available around that area where PN Subs ( SSKs ) could dock, replenish etc.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Our Subs might be of this class!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1405452330116521985

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

These might be the specs of our future sub fleet.
*Submarine Guide: Chinese Navy's Latest Type-039C Yuan Class*






Already the backbone of the Chinese Navy's (PLAN) submarine force. The AIP equipped Yuan Class now looks set for another major enhancement. The latest version, first seen in May this year, may show that the PLAN is again catching up to leading submarine technologies. It is also a sign that they are innovating and navigating their own route.

Few details of the latest iteration, provisionally dubbed Type-039*C* by Western analysts, have emerged. What is clear however is that it is very different, and by implication more capable, than previous versions. I have already done a 'What We Know' article for Naval News. This article is a much deeper dive and includes additional insights.





Externally the new boat has a distinctive new sail with a chine running along the upper part creating a stealthy appearance. This bears a passing resemblance to the Swedish A-26 design. But the similarities are only superficial. Other enhancements, possibly more consequential, include an integral towed array and possibly a new anechoic coating.




​
*Yuan Class*
When it first appeared at a Chinese shipyard in 2006 the Type-039A *Yuan Class* submarine made quite a stir. Firstly it was evidently much more modern than the preceding Song Class, and secondly because it wasn't forewarned. China has repeatedly reminded us that it is capable of building submarines without giving Western observers prior notice. Other countries, generally, cannot build submarines in such secrecy, which is partly what makes Chinese subs so interesting. And in May 2021 they did it again with this latest version.





The labels of the Yuan variants is ambiguous. Reliable Chinese sources have yet to confirm the official line so Western analysts have resorted to guessing. In general however there are three major iterations of the class, distinguished by the sail. The original Type-039A had a clean upright sail with almost vertical leading edge. Overall the boat showed clear influences of the Russian KILO Class, which China already operated. Then in around 2013 a new more curved sail was seen with blended leading edge ('cusp'). This was dubbed Type-039*B*. Note that modernized 'A's became 'AGs', and there is some confusion on the designations already. By my way of counting the new submarine becomes Type-039*C* although many observers favor Type-039*D*.




However the overall capabilities of the Yuans, relative to older Chinese designs, are reasonably well appreciated. Over the years China has been slightly less cagey with this design because it is busy exporting them. So far the customers are Pakistan (8) and Thailand (1). In the process several cutaway models of have appeared at defense shows revealing the overall layout. It is a three-level boat with a Stirling generator type AIP (Air Independent Power, also written Air independent _Propulsion_).

*Enhancements over Type-039A/B*
Although we do not yet know of internal differences. The basic hull appears to be the same size. And we do know that weapons are loaded / unloaded via the upper pair of torpedo tubes in the exact same manner as the earlier Yuan and Song class boats. This is a strong indicator that the internal arrangement is largely unchanged.

However the sail suggests that surface stealth has become an important consideration for the PLAN. This may be to do with the relatively long transits in and out of ports. Or it may imply a special forces focus where the submarine may be more exposed at times, although there is no supporting evidence of this.

The likeness to the Swedish A-26 Blekinge-class submarine is often over-stated. While they are connected by idea of a chined upper sail, the hydrodynamic configuration is actually very different. The chinese boat has a less blended lower part and the fairwater planes (hydroplanes) are mounted very differently.





More significantly, China was experimenting with angled sails like this on a Type-035 Ming class submarine in around 2010. This was only the upper part of the sail (the Mings had a very old-fashioned sail arrangement with a small upper section around the periscopes).







> _The Type-035 Ming Class submarines were obsolete before they even hit the water. However at least one boat was modified around 2010 with a chined upper sail, similar to that applied to the latest Yuan class._


The aft casing, which is more angular than previous versions, has been extended aft to contain a towed array sonar (TAS) reel. This feeds out through the upper rudder structure, which has been enlarged. This capability, something which appeared to be missing on earlier versions, may be a major capability jump. It may make them more formidable anti-submarine platforms.

One more subtle difference is that the sail and upper part of the casing appear to have a new anechoic coating. The rubber tiles visible on earlier Yuans appear to be missing, although they are still used on the lower hull. The coating does appear rubberized and is slightly uneven.

We can speculate about the adoption of newer technologies. The sail is in the same location, and approximately the same overall dimensions, as earlier boats. So while optronic masts may be added, it is not likely to be a radical departure from the existing boats.

The biggest question mark concerns propulsion. Yuans feature Stirling generator type AIP. It is possible that fuel cell AIP may be in use but since the overall dimensions of the hull appear unchanged I think that this is less likely. Similarly there is speculation of lithium-ion battery technology but again there is no evidence for this.
*Weapons*
The torpedo room is located on the upper deck. This may mean that the curvature of the hull reduces the total weapons stowage to 16, although 18 is normally reported. (And I used 18 as an assumption in the World Rankings of Submarine Weapons Loads).

Chiefly, the weapons load is likely to include anti-ship missiles, with ship-strike being its primary mission. Anti-ship weapons are believed to include the latest YJ-18B supersonic anti-ship cruise missile. This has a relatively long range, perhaps 290 nautical miles. It is also likely that the legacy YJ-82 weapon, loosely equivalent of submarine launched Exocet, can also be carried. This has a much shorter range, around 20 nautical miles, but it should be remembered that long-range missile shots require offboard targeting.

The torpedoes are likely to include both the Yu-6 thermal powered torpedoes and the electric-powered type (designation unknown). Both weapons are wire guided dual-purpose (anti-ship, anti-submarine) weapons and are relatively modern. Bottom mines are also believed to be a standard part of the PLAN submarine arsenal.



H I Sutton - Covert Shores

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## khanasifm

054a/p gets deadlier

Asroc plus cruise missile combo

pic show an intake so perhaps true not sure what’s the range previously Asroc had 50km this one may be in hundreds 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1413315484661915650

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## FuturePAF

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> These might be the specs of our future sub fleet.
> *Submarine Guide: Chinese Navy's Latest Type-039C Yuan Class*
> View attachment 760770
> 
> 
> Already the backbone of the Chinese Navy's (PLAN) submarine force. The AIP equipped Yuan Class now looks set for another major enhancement. The latest version, first seen in May this year, may show that the PLAN is again catching up to leading submarine technologies. It is also a sign that they are innovating and navigating their own route.
> 
> Few details of the latest iteration, provisionally dubbed Type-039*C* by Western analysts, have emerged. What is clear however is that it is very different, and by implication more capable, than previous versions. I have already done a 'What We Know' article for Naval News. This article is a much deeper dive and includes additional insights.
> 
> View attachment 760771
> 
> Externally the new boat has a distinctive new sail with a chine running along the upper part creating a stealthy appearance. This bears a passing resemblance to the Swedish A-26 design. But the similarities are only superficial. Other enhancements, possibly more consequential, include an integral towed array and possibly a new anechoic coating.
> 
> View attachment 760772
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> *Yuan Class*
> When it first appeared at a Chinese shipyard in 2006 the Type-039A *Yuan Class* submarine made quite a stir. Firstly it was evidently much more modern than the preceding Song Class, and secondly because it wasn't forewarned. China has repeatedly reminded us that it is capable of building submarines without giving Western observers prior notice. Other countries, generally, cannot build submarines in such secrecy, which is partly what makes Chinese subs so interesting. And in May 2021 they did it again with this latest version.
> 
> View attachment 760773
> 
> The labels of the Yuan variants is ambiguous. Reliable Chinese sources have yet to confirm the official line so Western analysts have resorted to guessing. In general however there are three major iterations of the class, distinguished by the sail. The original Type-039A had a clean upright sail with almost vertical leading edge. Overall the boat showed clear influences of the Russian KILO Class, which China already operated. Then in around 2013 a new more curved sail was seen with blended leading edge ('cusp'). This was dubbed Type-039*B*. Note that modernized 'A's became 'AGs', and there is some confusion on the designations already. By my way of counting the new submarine becomes Type-039*C* although many observers favor Type-039*D*.
> View attachment 760774
> 
> However the overall capabilities of the Yuans, relative to older Chinese designs, are reasonably well appreciated. Over the years China has been slightly less cagey with this design because it is busy exporting them. So far the customers are Pakistan (8) and Thailand (1). In the process several cutaway models of have appeared at defense shows revealing the overall layout. It is a three-level boat with a Stirling generator type AIP (Air Independent Power, also written Air independent _Propulsion_).
> 
> *Enhancements over Type-039A/B*
> Although we do not yet know of internal differences. The basic hull appears to be the same size. And we do know that weapons are loaded / unloaded via the upper pair of torpedo tubes in the exact same manner as the earlier Yuan and Song class boats. This is a strong indicator that the internal arrangement is largely unchanged.
> 
> However the sail suggests that surface stealth has become an important consideration for the PLAN. This may be to do with the relatively long transits in and out of ports. Or it may imply a special forces focus where the submarine may be more exposed at times, although there is no supporting evidence of this.
> 
> The likeness to the Swedish A-26 Blekinge-class submarine is often over-stated. While they are connected by idea of a chined upper sail, the hydrodynamic configuration is actually very different. The chinese boat has a less blended lower part and the fairwater planes (hydroplanes) are mounted very differently.
> 
> View attachment 760775
> 
> More significantly, China was experimenting with angled sails like this on a Type-035 Ming class submarine in around 2010. This was only the upper part of the sail (the Mings had a very old-fashioned sail arrangement with a small upper section around the periscopes).
> 
> View attachment 760776
> 
> 
> The aft casing, which is more angular than previous versions, has been extended aft to contain a towed array sonar (TAS) reel. This feeds out through the upper rudder structure, which has been enlarged. This capability, something which appeared to be missing on earlier versions, may be a major capability jump. It may make them more formidable anti-submarine platforms.
> 
> One more subtle difference is that the sail and upper part of the casing appear to have a new anechoic coating. The rubber tiles visible on earlier Yuans appear to be missing, although they are still used on the lower hull. The coating does appear rubberized and is slightly uneven.
> 
> We can speculate about the adoption of newer technologies. The sail is in the same location, and approximately the same overall dimensions, as earlier boats. So while optronic masts may be added, it is not likely to be a radical departure from the existing boats.
> 
> The biggest question mark concerns propulsion. Yuans feature Stirling generator type AIP. It is possible that fuel cell AIP may be in use but since the overall dimensions of the hull appear unchanged I think that this is less likely. Similarly there is speculation of lithium-ion battery technology but again there is no evidence for this.
> *Weapons*
> The torpedo room is located on the upper deck. This may mean that the curvature of the hull reduces the total weapons stowage to 16, although 18 is normally reported. (And I used 18 as an assumption in the World Rankings of Submarine Weapons Loads).
> 
> Chiefly, the weapons load is likely to include anti-ship missiles, with ship-strike being its primary mission. Anti-ship weapons are believed to include the latest YJ-18B supersonic anti-ship cruise missile. This has a relatively long range, perhaps 290 nautical miles. It is also likely that the legacy YJ-82 weapon, loosely equivalent of submarine launched Exocet, can also be carried. This has a much shorter range, around 20 nautical miles, but it should be remembered that long-range missile shots require offboard targeting.
> 
> The torpedoes are likely to include both the Yu-6 thermal powered torpedoes and the electric-powered type (designation unknown). Both weapons are wire guided dual-purpose (anti-ship, anti-submarine) weapons and are relatively modern. Bottom mines are also believed to be a standard part of the PLAN submarine arsenal.
> 
> 
> 
> H I Sutton - Covert Shores



Hope they leave room in the submarine for the a sizable amount of the latest Chinese batteries. It could be a way to allow the submarine to quietly escape situations it finds it self in, after engaging the enemy, or for longer patrols, or faster patrols through certain areas, all while staying as quiet as possible.

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## khanasifm

The 039 for training any news of the at being in pn now at Pakistan or stil in China for training the crew ?

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## khanasifm

H I Sutton - Covert Shores










The New Mystery Submarine Seen in China: What We Know - Naval News


At the height of the Cold War defense analysts often tried to piece together information about a new types of submarine seen outside shipyards. Today this is playing out again, only in China. A new submarine, with an unusual sail, has recently emerged.




www.navalnews.com

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> The 039 for training any news of the at being in pn now at Pakistan or stil in China for training the crew ?


According to @Rafi its with PN and PN will keep it along 8 others so total 9 subs will enter service

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## FuturePAF

mingle said:


> According to @Rafi its with PN and PN will keep it along 8 others so total 9 subs will enter service


If the PN will end up with 9, I hope the last three have an extended section for more batteries and at least 8 VLS tubes to give the PN a second strike capability that can always be on station during heightened tensions.

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## mingle

FuturePAF said:


> If the PN will end up with 9, I hope the last three have an extended section for more batteries and at least 8 VLS tubes to give the PN a second strike capability that can always be on station during heightened tensions.


@Rafi can shed some light??

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

FuturePAF said:


> If the PN will end up with 9, I hope the last three have an extended section for more batteries and at least 8 VLS tubes to give the PN a second strike capability that can always be on station during heightened tensions.


Just a hunch, but I think the main role of the Hangors will be ASW and AShW.

The PN's main focus right now is A2/AD so as to stop the IN from imposing a blockade or MEZ. It needs boat-hunters that can come in at a good cost and rapid pace, hence the S26 with likely some modifications for Arabian Sea operations. KSEW's 2018 scale model showed some minor differences in top speed and displacement.

But nothing significant IMHO. Yes, the Hangors can carry the Babur 3 SLCMs from their tubes, but nuclear deterrence will not be their main function -- rather, an 'on paper' capability to show we have a triad.

I do think a strategic deterrent design is on the roadmap, but much farther out. Perhaps -- like AZM -- it could be a design that the NRDI is working on internally (and may reflect the PN's interest in Turkey's submarine projects). But the Hangors will likely be more conservative in scope given the urgency of the PN's sub-surface needs.

@kursed @JamD @SQ8

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## Abid123

I hope they can be armed with hypersonic missiles!


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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Just a hunch, but I think the main role of the Hangors will be ASW and AShW.
> 
> The PN's main focus right now is A2/AD so as to stop the IN from imposing a blockade or MEZ. It needs boat-hunters that can come in at a good cost and rapid pace, hence the S26 with likely some modifications for Arabian Sea operations. KSEW's 2018 scale model showed some minor differences in top speed and displacement.
> 
> But nothing significant IMHO. Yes, the Hangors can carry the Babur 3 SLCMs from their tubes, but nuclear deterrence will not be their main function -- rather, an 'on paper' capability to show we have a triad.
> 
> I do think a strategic deterrent design is on the roadmap, but much farther out. Perhaps -- like AZM -- it could be a design that the NRDI is working on internally (and may reflect the PN's interest in Turkey's submarine projects). But the Hangors will likely be more conservative in scope given the urgency of the PN's sub-surface needs.
> 
> @kursed @JamD @SQ8



Fair point. Achieving the primary role is a necessity, before taking on a secondary role.

Just hope they add the latest battery technology to each submarine so endurance improves with each boat.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

FuturePAF said:


> Fair point. Achieving the primary role is a necessity, before taking on a secondary role.
> 
> Just hope they add the latest battery technology to each submarine so endurance improves with each boat.


I think the PN is open to changing the AIP from Sterling to fuel-cell if a non-Western alternative becomes available. It would deliver a significant capability change.

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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the PN is open to changing the AIP from Sterling to fuel-cell if a non-Western alternative becomes available. It would deliver a significant capability change.



Definitely would be a significant capability change. AIP equipped submarines like the Shortfin barracuda, Soryu class and the A-26 may reach the point where they can operate with an endurance or short duration sustained speeds (probably not both) near those of SSNs, within the decade. Perhaps the PN will revisit the technology once it has matured, probably during a midlife refit as the Swedes are doing with their Gotland class subs (open up the subs, swap out the guts and weld her back together again). Until then, it needs to field the numbers. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

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## Rafi

mingle said:


> @Rafi can shed some light??



All I can say for now is that we will have a modest sea based deterrence.

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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> All I can say for now is that we will have a modest sea based deterrence.


We need to do way better then modest. And to do that after Hangoor class I think Pakistan should consider the South Korean class. South Korea is building submarines which will have VLS for both Cruise Missiles and if we require they can put VLS which can Ballistic Missiles of at least 1000 KM range if not more.

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## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> We need to do way better then modest. And to do that after Hangoor class I think Pakistan should consider the South Korean class. South Korea is building submarines which will have VLS for both Cruise Missiles and if we require they can put VLS which can Ballistic Missiles of at least 1000 KM range if not more.



In the pipeline.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

FuturePAF said:


> Definitely would be a significant capability change. AIP equipped submarines like the Shortfin barracuda, Soryu class and the A-26 may reach the point where they can operate with an endurance or short duration sustained speeds (probably not both) near those of SSNs, within the decade. Perhaps the PN will revisit the technology once it has matured, probably during a midlife refit as the Swedes are doing with their Gotland class subs (open up the subs, swap out the guts and weld her back together again). Until then, it needs to field the numbers. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.


Yep. IMHO the PN needs a mix of long-endurance AIP-equipped and shallow-water attack submarines. The AIP ought to be a fuel-cell or some type of non-mechanical system. That way, we minimize the vibrations (acoustics) of the submarine. The long-endurance subs can operate in the EEZ while the SWATs can guard our littoral waters. Combined with the busy environment of the Arabian Seas, our subs will be silent threats.

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## Rafi

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. IMHO the PN needs a mix of long-endurance AIP-equipped and shallow-water attack submarines. The AIP ought to be a fuel-cell or some type of non-mechanical system. That way, we minimize the vibrations (acoustics) of the submarine. The long-endurance subs can operate in the EEZ while the SWATs can guard our littoral waters. Combined with the busy environment of the Arabian Seas, our subs will be silent threats.



Good news on this, much progress been made,

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## Goritoes

@Rafi are you ok my friend? You are not typing " nuff said " your signature in your posts, I am worried bro

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Just a hunch, but I think the main role of the Hangors will be ASW and AShW.
> 
> The PN's main focus right now is A2/AD so as to stop the IN from imposing a blockade or MEZ. It needs boat-hunters that can come in at a good cost and rapid pace, hence the S26 with likely some modifications for Arabian Sea operations. KSEW's 2018 scale model showed some minor differences in top speed and displacement.
> 
> But nothing significant IMHO. Yes, the Hangors can carry the Babur 3 SLCMs from their tubes, but nuclear deterrence will not be their main function -- rather, an 'on paper' capability to show we have a triad.
> 
> I do think a *strategic deterrent design is on the roadmap*, but much farther out. Perhaps -- like AZM -- it could be a design that the NRDI is working on internally (and may reflect the PN's interest in Turkey's submarine projects). But the Hangors will likely be more conservative in scope given the urgency of the PN's sub-surface needs.
> 
> @kursed @JamD @SQ8



It is and will draw on an existing design - complications with reactor design put a temporary halt to it. 

It exists in concepts, requirements and a nice wooden model form in E-7/8.

It also was the focus of heavy intel ops by both neighbors, two middle east countries and nearly half of NATO.

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## Ghessan

Goritoes said:


> @Rafi are you ok my friend? You are not typing " nuff said " your signature in your posts, I am worried bro



probably he is willing to say more but resisting himself of any more beans to spill hence indicating by not saying "nuff said"


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> It is and will draw on an existing design - complications with reactor design put a temporary halt to it.
> 
> It exists in concepts, requirements and a nice wooden model form in E-7/8.
> 
> It also was the focus of heavy intel ops by both neighbors, two middle east countries and nearly half of NATO.


I wonder if this is why Germany refused to release engines for the Hangor. They might have thought that the engines could end up on the strategic design, or at least enable the PN to understand how to integrate said engines to the boomer one day.

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## Rafi

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wonder if this is why Germany refused to release engines for the Hangor. They might have thought that the engines could end up on the strategic design, or at least enable the PN to understand how to integrate said engines to the boomer one day.



Avet, nuff said

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## JamD

SQ8 said:


> It is and will draw on an existing design - complications with reactor design put a temporary halt to it.


Confirming this, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) recall the story that I told you about this (about the guy).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> Confirming this, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) recall the story that I told you about this (about the guy).


So...while dropping some files at his senior's desk, the poor guy saw the wooden model. Now, he's forbidden from leaving the office building.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So...while dropping some files at his senior's desk, the poor guy saw the wooden model. Now, he's forbidden from leaving the office building.


Entirely possible lol.


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wonder if this is why Germany refused to release engines for the Hangor. They might have thought that the engines could end up on the strategic design, or at least enable the PN to understand how to integrate said engines to the boomer one day.


Khuda ke waaste parda na kaabe se uthaa zaalim
Kaheen aisa na ho yahan bhi wahi kaafir sanam nikle

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## sparten

SQ8 said:


> It is and will draw on an existing design - complications with reactor design put a temporary halt to it.
> 
> It exists in concepts, requirements and a nice wooden model form in E-7/8.
> 
> It also was the focus of heavy intel ops by both neighbors, two middle east countries and nearly half of NATO.


The grapvine (I have no information besides) is that the _SSN _was halted due to the reactor and other issue and replaced with what became the Hangor class. While the SSBN-Boomer work continued.
I do like what one person who I talked to said.
_The first information you will have of the existence of a Pakistani boomer will be an ISPR press release announcing a test._

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## SQ8

sparten said:


> The grapvine (I have no information besides) is that the _SSN _was halted due to the reactor and other issue and replaced with what became the Hangor class. While the SSBN-Boomer work continued.
> I do like what one person who I talked to said.
> _The first information you will have of the existence of a Pakistani boomer will be an ISPR press release announcing a test._


If PDF ever found how forward PN has been thinking they will go nuts.

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## khanasifm

?? Let’s see if pn is also adopting something similar behind the scene 









Game Changer: AIP Submarine Has Fired A Ballistic Missile For The First Time - Naval News


The latest non-nuclear submarines are much more stealthy and formidable than previous generations. Now the South Koreans have combined this with a ballistic missile capability. This could foreshadow a new dawn in submarine capabilities.




www.navalnews.com

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## Rafi

Ever since the PN was given the immense responsibility for the nations second strike capability it has had development on "steroids".

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

SQ8 said:


> If PDF ever found how forward PN has been thinking they will go nuts.


Bhai na hamare jazbat se khelo abi tu ham SMASh ko taras rahe hain

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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So...while dropping some files at his senior's desk, the poor guy saw the wooden model. Now, he's forbidden from leaving the office building.



never heard of classified information in
Wooden model at someone desk 😂 someone made up s788 story


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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. IMHO the PN needs a mix of long-endurance AIP-equipped and shallow-water attack submarines. The AIP ought to be a fuel-cell or some type of non-mechanical system. That way, we minimize the vibrations (acoustics) of the submarine. The long-endurance subs can operate in the EEZ while the SWATs can guard our littoral waters. Combined with the busy environment of the Arabian Seas, our subs will be silent threats.


PN should look again German subs U214 remember Mush era deal? Pshamim sb broke the new by the way any news about Shamim sb? His health?

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## Thorough Pro

PN had an indigenous working (experimental) model circa 2009/10.
That was 22 years ago, I am sure they would have made a lot of progress since then





SQ8 said:


> It is and will draw on an existing design - complications with reactor design put a temporary halt to it.
> 
> It exists in concepts, requirements and a nice wooden model form in E-7/8.
> 
> It also was the focus of heavy intel ops by both neighbors, two middle east countries and nearly half of NATO.


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## untitled

khanasifm said:


> never heard of classified information in
> Wooden model at someone desk 😂 someone made up s788 story


Things like this can happen
Watch from 35m mark


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## khanasifm

untitled said:


> Things like this can happen
> Watch from 35m mark



Bottom line buying a model from Shop vs someone putting a model of classified info on his desk and being locked I. Office , if someone has held classified clearance he /she would know what he can put up infact everything is clearly marked so 
If you walked into some office and classified is in the open he would end up i. jail not you still the story is BS

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## Rafi

"Orca" ...........Nuff said.

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## iLION12345_1

mingle said:


> PN should look again German subs U214 remember Mush era deal? Pshamim sb broke the new by the way any news about Shamim sb? His health?


German submarines weren’t bought because AIP wasn’t offered.

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## araz

iLION12345_1 said:


> German submarines weren’t bought because AIP wasn’t offered.


Was it AIP or the possibility to modify it for CM carrying? Please advise.
A

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## untitled

Rafi said:


> "Orca" ...........Nuff said.


Pakistani unmanned submersible?


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## Dreamer.

Rafi said:


> "Orca" ...........Nuff said.


Pardon my ignorance but what is orca?

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## Nasr

Dreamer. said:


> Pardon my ignorance but what is orca?



AKA Killer Whale .... the one which is black n white in color!

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## Gripen9

Dreamer. said:


> Pardon my ignorance but what is orca?


It is a large dolphin commonly known as a Killer Whale.


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## Gripen9

araz said:


> Was it AIP or the possibility to modify it for CM carrying? Please advise.
> A


I believe you are correct. Standard torpedo tubes are 533mm, HDW had modified them for the Israeli Dolphin class (modified U212) to 650mm in order to launch Popeye Turbo CMs. Pakistan had requested the same for the proposed U214, but was denied by the German Gov. 
BTW Germany has subsidized all Israeli Navy assets built in Germany (Dolphins, Sa'ar V/VI corvettes  )

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## JamD

Rafi said:


> "Orca" ...........Nuff said.


🤔










EDIT: Just to be clear I'm not speculating that Rafi is saying that we are buying the under development Orcas from the US or something. Just speculating on the type of program that he may be referring to.

P.S. I used to think that the most secretive programs are in aerospace. But having worked in aerospace I now know that the most secret programs are related with submarines. The amount of hush-hush around submarine technologies across the world is really unique. Just thought that was interesting.

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## iLION12345_1

Gripen9 said:


> I believe you are correct. Standard torpedo tubes are 533mm, HDW had modified them for the Israeli Dolphin class (modified U212) to 650mm in order to launch Popeye Turbo CMs. Pakistan had requested the same for the proposed U214, but was denied by the German Gov.
> BTW Germany has subsidized all Israeli Navy assets built in Germany (Dolphins, Sa'ar V/VI corvettes  )


If I recall correctly AIP was An issue as well. Germany at that time was not offering its fuel cell/AIP tech to anyone except NATO members. It could have been that both things were the issue, however I do not recall hearing about the cruise missile issue, that may be because I didn’t look into it much back then.

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## araz

iLION12345_1 said:


> If I recall correctly AIP was An issue as well. Germany at that time was not offering its fuel cell/AIP tech to anyone except NATO members. It could have been that both things were the issue, however I do not recall hearing about the cruise missile issue, that may be because I didn’t look into it much back then.


I suspect the issues related to AIP, 650 mm Torpedo tubes and Zardari's looting all accounted for the 214. The Germans were allegedly quite pissed off with us as they had German banks ready to loan us the money.
A

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## FuturePAF

Hope the PN is looking at the new designs (“pyramid shaped” outer hull like the Astute class) coming out of Europe and the benefits to acoustic stealth. They should seriously consider a redesign to the Hangor class subs IMHO. Just like the Australians pivot to a design that suits the new situation, so to should Pakistan look for a submarine that achieves regional superiority in the undersea domain. I would think a SSK design that doesn’t require the sub to surface during its entire 6-12 week patrol or could achieve sustained high speed dashes could be a game changer (presumably if it could fit enough fuel cells to do so)

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## Ali_Baba

FuturePAF said:


> Hope the PN is looking at the new designs (“pyramid shaped” outer hull like the Astute class) coming out of Europe and the benefits to acoustic stealth. They should seriously consider a redesign to the Hangor class subs IMHO. Just like the Australians pivot to a design that suits the new situation, so to should Pakistan look for a submarine that achieves regional superiority in the undersea domain. I would think a SSK design that doesn’t require the sub to surface during its entire 6-12 week patrol or could achieve sustained high speed dashes could be a game changer (presumably if it could fit enough fuel cells to do so)



That youtube channel is the best channel to subscribe to if you want the latest on Naval News - he is an ex submariner and knows his stuff very well and can convey that very well. Highly recommended!

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## FuturePAF

Ali_Baba said:


> That youtube channel is the best channel to subscribe to if you want the latest on Naval News - he is an ex submariner and knows his stuff very well and can convey that very well. Highly recommended!


Which is why his insights on the new European SSK designs made me think, IMHO, the PN needs to put on the break on its current Hangor design and should update the design with this new shape (which can create more room for fuel cells and boost the range as well as lower the acoustic signature)

Even if the Hangors are delayed a few years becauseof this, I think it’s worth it for a sub that will probably be in PN Service for the next 30-40 years.

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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> Hope the PN is looking at the new designs (“pyramid shaped” outer hull like the Astute class) coming out of Europe and the benefits to acoustic stealth. They should seriously consider a redesign to the Hangor class subs IMHO. Just like the Australians pivot to a design that suits the new situation, so to should Pakistan look for a submarine that achieves regional superiority in the undersea domain. I would think a SSK design that doesn’t require the sub to surface during its entire 6-12 week patrol or could achieve sustained high speed dashes could be a game changer (presumably if it could fit enough fuel cells to do so)


Bhai. In which world do you alter a stable design so radically without any research into its implications on the platform. I do not deny there maybe benefits in this newer designs but you would need to conduct your own research over what it would do to the current design. This would set project xeliveries back by upto 3 to 5 years and if the Chinese detect a problem with their newer design then are you going to wait for them to iron it out? Besides who do you expect to pay for all this research and what would be the cost implications? You can try it initially on one of your midgets and see how it responds and then implement design changes accordingly. However bef9re that do a cost benefit analysis to see what impact it would have and what benefits would it bring to us. We should not just jump on to any bandwagon and ask for changes.
A

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## FuturePAF

araz said:


> Bhai. In which world do you alter a stable design so radically without any research into its implications on the platform. I do not deny there maybe benefits in this newer designs but you would need to conduct your own research over what it would do to the current design. This would set project xeliveries back by upto 3 to 5 years and if the Chinese detect a problem with their newer design then are you going to wait for them to iron it out? Besides who do you expect to pay for all this research and what would be the cost implications? You can try it initially on one of your midgets and see how it responds and then implement design changes accordingly. However bef9re that do a cost benefit analysis to see what impact it would have and what benefits would it bring to us. We should not just jump on to any bandwagon and ask for changes.
> A



Not jumping on the bandwagon for the sake of following a fad or trend. But if there is a potentially significant shift in submarine designs, just like stealth fighters improved a key aspect of survivability, research should be done to be independently verify these claims.

Perhaps the Hangor plan can be divided into two parts; 4 subs of the current design and 4 of an updated design if the research pans out. So as not to derail delivery tike tables for the first few boats, but also get the most out of our sub force.

As for funding, I’m sure the Chinese will want to keep up with what’s coming out of its competitors shipyards. Btw, even the next generation US SSN is expected to possible feature a similar design update as per the ex-us navy sonar man on the “Sub Brief” YouTube channel.

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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> Not jumping on the bandwagon for the sake of following a fad or trend. But if there is a potentially significant shift in submarine designs, just like stealth fighters improved a key aspect of survivability, research should be done to be independently verify these claims.
> 
> Perhaps the Hangor plan can be divided into two parts; 4 subs of the current design and 4 of an updated design if the research pans out. So as not to derail delivery tike tables for the first few boats, but also get the most out of our sub force.
> 
> As for funding, I’m sure the Chinese will want to keep up with what’s coming out of its competitors shipyards. Btw, even the next generation US SSN is expected to possible feature a similar design update as per the ex-us navy sonar man on the “Sub Brief” YouTube channel.


Bhai Cheen wale zakaat nahi nikaltay apnay maal pay. They will want you to pay for the research. I am trying to say that we must recognize and rise above this bull crap about Pakistan cheen bhai bahi. In most cases there is a transactional relationship. In certain instances they have made allowances because overall the research has helped them improve their own products. However so far to my very inexpert eye, the Chinese have not come out with an original design barring J20 and that too might have had bearings from the SU series (pure guess work on my part). The J10 has had input from the Lavi programme and the J31 from the F35. These have subsequently been worked on to give a finished product. 
As to design changes in the subs, whether we need the additional stealth is another factor to consider since the Arabian see makes life difficult for people trying to find subs. I think if you want you need to start small and try it out on the midget subs as you have a bit of say in its manufacturing. Once the design is tested it an be brought onlone for ogher projects but not for the Chinese projects. Your best bet at this time is to talk to the Turks, if they are interested.
A

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## FuturePAF

araz said:


> Bhai Cheen wale zakaat nahi nikaltay apnay maal pay. They will want you to pay for the research. I am trying to say that we must recognize and rise above this bull crap about Pakistan cheen bhai bahi. In most cases there is a transactional relationship. In certain instances they have made allowances because overall the research has helped them improve their own products. However so far to my very inexpert eye, the Chinese have not come out with an original design barring J20 and that too might have had bearings from the SU series (pure guess work on my part). The J10 has had input from the Lavi programme and the J31 from the F35. These have subsequently been worked on to give a finished product.
> As to design changes in the subs, whether we need the additional stealth is another factor to consider since the Arabian see makes life difficult for people trying to find subs. I think if you want you need to start small and try it out on the midget subs as you have a bit of say in its manufacturing. Once the design is tested it an be brought onlone for ogher projects but not for the Chinese projects. Your best bet at this time is to talk to the Turks, if they are interested.
> A



This is not about Pak Cheen Bhai Bhai. Their navy also has a requirement for the best sub designs they can possibly get from their industry. They operate 50 SSK and give or take 6 SSN/SSBNs. They will have to keep on improving their designs if they hope to increase the survivability of their boats. Just like the JF-17s, our side could raise the idea, and if their development side comes back with an estimate timeframe and co-development costs we can afford, I would hope the PN would go for it. We are already spending $5 billion on 8 submarines. Depending on how much more it would cost, it might be worth it, especially if our doctrine expands to move out of the littorals of the Arabian Sea and into the Indian Ocean for second strike deterrent patrols. Down the line, if we make this shift now, we won’t have to be considering SSNs or SSBNs. Remember in the 60s and 70s, the PN sub Ghazi was conducting blue water operations, and currently the PN surface fleet looks to be shaping up to take on the enemy in blue waters. The PN sub fleet should be able to keep up with the surface fleet and expand the area of uncertainty for the enemy, just like the Ghazi did.

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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> This is not about Pak Cheen Bhai Bhai. Their navy also has a requirement for the best sub designs they can possibly get from their industry. They operate 50 SSK and give or take 6 SSN/SSBNs. They will have to keep on improving their designs if they hope to increase the survivability of their boats. Just like the JF-17s, our side could raise the idea, and if their development side comes back with an estimate timeframe and co-development costs we can afford, I would hope the PN would go for it. We are already spending $5 billion on 8 submarines. Depending on how much more it would cost, it might be worth it, especially if our doctrine expands to move out of the littorals of the Arabian Sea and into the Indian Ocean for second strike deterrent patrols. Down the line, if we make this shift now, we won’t have to be considering SSNs or SSBNs. Remember in the 60s and 70s, the PN sub Ghazi was conducting blue water operations, and currently the PN surface fleet looks to be shaping up to take on the enemy in blue waters. The PN sub fleet should be able to keep up with the surface fleet and expand the area of uncertainty for the enemy, just like the Ghazi did.


The Chinese will not take your bait when you show them the new design in a youtube video and say " can you build us this one." They will either say we currently do not have the capacity to build a new design ( Shahid Lateef is on record having said the Chinese asked him if the PAF wanted them to build something like the F16 and also said we currently do not have the ability to do so) or turn around and ask you if you will foot the bill for the development. This could run into a couple of billions and if there is a failure it could rise steeply. You barely have enough to keep your shirt on with judicipus help from the IMF and WB. In this case you will be down to using large leaves to c9ver yourselves. In short to date no branch has taken on a project with the Chinese apart from the JFT where you have a product designed to your specs. Even there, rightly or wrongly the Chinese have been acused of reneging on their promise to buy 150 units of JFT. THE PAF refused to co-finance the F31 de elopment and to the best of my knowledge no other project has been shared with us. On the other hand the Chinese have been known to have stopped the PN officials from visiting their subs on occasion. So they might most likely ask you to foot the bill for a project where you dont have any money. 
A

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## FuturePAF

araz said:


> The Chinese will not take your bait when you show them the new design in a youtube video and say " can you build us this one." They will either say we currently do not have the capacity to build a new design ( Shahid Lateef is on record having said the Chinese asked him if the PAF wanted them to build something like the F16 and also said we currently do not have the ability to do so) or turn around and ask you if you will foot the bill for the development. This could run into a couple of billions and if there is a failure it could rise steeply. You barely have enough to keep your shirt on with judicipus help from the IMF and WB. In this case you will be down to using large leaves to c9ver yourselves. In short to date no branch has taken on a project with the Chinese apart from the JFT where you have a product designed to your specs. Even there, rightly or wrongly the Chinese have been acused of reneging on their promise to buy 150 units of JFT. THE PAF refused to co-finance the F31 de elopment and to the best of my knowledge no other project has been shared with us. On the other hand the Chinese have been known to have stopped the PN officials from visiting their subs on occasion. So they might most likely ask you to foot the bill for a project where you dont have any money.
> A



Fair enough point. Best to work on our finances and take what’s on offer.


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## khanasifm

When is the first Sub due for delivery ?


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## khanasifm



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## Thəorətic Muslim

FuturePAF said:


> Which is why his insights on the new European SSK designs made me think,



European waters: North/Baltic/Mediterranean Sea(s) are very different in temperature, salinity, depth and area. Each of these effect the specifications of a sub.

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## khanasifm

The New Mystery Submarine Seen in China: What We Know - Naval News


At the height of the Cold War defense analysts often tried to piece together information about a new types of submarine seen outside shipyards. Today this is playing out again, only in China. A new submarine, with an unusual sail, has recently emerged.




www.navalnews.com

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## FuturePAF

Does the following video of the Chinese Type 039C Yuan Class, give any additional insight into the capabilities of the Hangor Subs






1. can the lube oil pump (mechanically linked to the crankshaft) be made quieter?
2. Does Pakistan have its own Surtass like system on MSA boats or any boat for that matter?

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## khanasifm

FuturePAF said:


> Does the following video of the Chinese Type 039C Yuan Class, give any additional insight into the capabilities of the Hangor Subs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. can the lube oil pump (mechanically linked to the crankshaft) be made quieter?
> 2. Does Pakistan have its own Surtass like system on MSA boats or any boat for that matter?



the batteries 🔋 technology he mentioned is newer and last far far longer


khanasifm said:


> the batteries 🔋 technology he mentioned is newer and last far far longer



First Gen sip vs current Gen

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## Abid123

I hope Pakistan could develop a anti-ship hypersonic cruise missile similar to Russia's Zircon. Imagine our Hangor class submarine equipped with a anti-ship hypersonic cruise missile with speeds up to mach 8–mach 9 and 1000 km range.

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## Thorough Pro

like super-fast medium pacer?

Cruise missiles travel at sub-sonic speeds, hypersonic above supersonic speeds, that's why it's called hypersonic. what would be a hypersonic cruise missile?






Abid123 said:


> I hope Pakistan could develop a anti-ship *hypersonic cruise missile* similar to Russia's Zircon. Imagine our Hangor class submarine equipped with a anti-ship hypersonic cruise missile with speeds up to mach 8–mach 9 and 1000 km range.

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## Abid123

Thorough Pro said:


> like super-fast medium pacer?
> 
> Cruise missiles travel at sub-sonic speeds, hypersonic above supersonic speeds, that's why it's called hypersonic. what would be a hypersonic cruise missile?








3M22 Zircon – Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance







missiledefenseadvocacy.org

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## The Accountant

Thorough Pro said:


> like super-fast medium pacer?
> 
> Cruise missiles travel at sub-sonic speeds, hypersonic above supersonic speeds, that's why it's called hypersonic. what would be a hypersonic cruise missile?


Brother you are comparing apple with oranges. Cruise missile are one that follow straight flight path unlike ballistic missiles ... It can be both supersonic, sub sonic and hypersonic ...

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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1464074275829084166

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## khanasifm

China's AIP Stealthy Submarine Force: A Worry for the U.S. Navy?


The Chinese navy currently has no further plans for new AIP submarine classes. Rather, PLAN continues to make iterative improvements to the Yuan-class.




nationalinterest.org


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## khanasifm

Today newer subs have reload rounds so 6 tubes with another 12 reload rounds for total of say 18 rounds but older subs like pn hangore had just 12 tubes with no reload round storage capacity 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468826238307471364

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## khanasifm

Pakistan's New Type-039B AIP Submarines: Image Shows Shipyard Expansion - Naval News


New construction halls and dry dock in Karachi are taking shape. Although official details are scarce, we understand that the new site will be for the local construction of Type-039B AIP submarines for the Pakistan Navy.




www.navalnews.com

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## The SC

*Pakistan cuts steel for the fifth Hangor-class submarine "PNS TASNIM"*







It is the first domestically built Hangor submarine in Pakistan, at the Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KS&EW).

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## khanasifm

Pn should already have the one 039a, the ninth one for training in China or perhaps in Pakistan prepping students for the four sub expected by 2024 and four local boats by 2028 ??

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## khanasifm

Pn info is outdated but good read 









Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) in Diesel Electric Submarines create force multiplier effect by enhancing their endurance to perform stealthy underwater operations - International Defense Security & Technology Inc.


Submarines carry out extremely important and diverse roles including intelligence gathering, surv




idstch.com

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## Ali_Baba

It is a shame that PN is not going for the 039C as that represents the best of the type - seems like Pakistans strategy is to buy n-2 where "n" is the latest variant...


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## Shotgunner51

Ali_Baba said:


> It is a shame that PN is not going for the 039C as that represents the best of the type - seems like Pakistans strategy is to buy n-2 where "n" is the latest variant...


Nah bro, that's common in other navies, PLAN in the same shoe. It will take years for 039B to phase out our older 035 and Kilo 636 which are now still in active duty.

Whether there's a C variant is yet unconfirmed, now we can only see a new sail (with a chine running along the upper part), an integral towed array, possibly a new anechoic coating or lithium battery, all could be experimental. Anyway the 039 employs a modular architecture, and plenty of room for retrofitting new initiatives. Baseline design is close to 80m long and beam of almost 9m, making its 3600 tons of displacement largest in the world after Soryu class, almost doubles that of other mainstream subs! Size does matter, other than carrying adequate combat resources, better sea worthiness, it also offers more comfort for crew (highly automatic so only 38 men required) who have to endure weeks of underwater service.

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## Daniel808

Congrats for our Pakistani brother 😍

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## TheDarkKnight

Shotgunner51 said:


> Nah bro, that's common in other navies, PLAN in the same shoe. It will take years for 039B to phase out our older 035 and Kilo 636 which are now still in active duty.
> 
> Whether there's a C variant is yet unconfirmed, now we can only see a new sail (with a chine running along the upper part), an integral towed array, possibly a new anechoic coating or lithium battery, all could be experimental. Anyway the 039 employs a modular architecture, and plenty of room for retrofitting new initiatives. Baseline design is close to 80m long and beam of almost 9m, making its 3600 tons of displacement largest in the world after Soryu class, almost doubles that of other mainstream subs! Size does matter, other than carrying adequate combat resources, better sea worthiness, it also offers more comfort for crew (highly automatic so only 38 men required) who have to endure weeks of underwater service.


Another pattern followed by Pakistan is to import mature platforms that have served in a military for quite some time. Type54 and type39b are both mature platform and are part of PLANS backbone.

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## Shotgunner51

TheDarkKnight said:


> Another pattern followed by Pakistan is to import mature platforms that have served in a military for quite some time. Type54 and type39b are both mature platform and are part of PLANS backbone.


Exactly. FFG 054A, SSK 039B, ZDK-03 (in PLA designate KJ-500), VT-4 (in PLA designate 99A) and HQ-9B etc are all current PLA backbones, customized for PA/PN/PAF protocols. These mature platforms (along with joint production like JF-17, A-100 MLRS) can leverage on training, tech supply chain, arsenal resupplies and C4ISTAR infrastructure (e.g. satcom, global positioning, infrared early warning, ELINT) with PLA.

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## Super Falcon

These hangoor class submarines will be integrated with worlds best steriling engines 40 percent more powerfull than Swedish revolutinary Steriling engines definately give more stealth time to remain under water

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## Super Falcon

Pak navy must induct tgese subs if possible with VLS launch capability of cruise missiles


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## syed_yusuf

I think PN will be getting two of the 4 hangout class in 2022


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## maverick1977

Two will be handed over next year..


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## Thorough Pro

The best car available on the market is Bugatti but it's a shame you probably only own a Suzuki or a Toyota or a Honda, right?
How it's related? 
It works the same way for the country as it works for any individual, you buy what you can afford.





Ali_Baba said:


> It is a shame that PN is not going for the 039C as that represents the best of the type - seems like Pakistans strategy is to buy n-2 where "n" is the latest variant...


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## syed_yusuf

Pakistan is buying what is best for them, mature and decent. That has more bang for buck and what is offered ....


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## ARMalik

What if a couple of these Subs turn out to be nuclear.

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## Riz

ARMalik said:


> What if a couple of these Subs turn out to be nuclear.


You need handsome knowledge to build a miniature nuclear power plant , rest is now issue , currently we have no knowledge to build a ordinary nuclear power plant all help coming from china


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## syed_yusuf

ARMalik said:


> What if a couple of these Subs turn out to be nuclear.


Eventually yes, 10-12 years from now Pakistan will going to have nuclear powered sub.

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## Thorough Pro

They finally inducted it a couple of months ago


Hassan Guy said:


> How to not build a submarine


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*New Type 039C submarine sea trial





*


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## syed_yusuf

Is this the version PN is going for? Does it have any VLS tubes like new Israeli submarine?


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## Areesh

syed_yusuf said:


> Is this the version PN is going for? Does it have any VLS tubes like new Israeli submarine?



No


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## aziqbal

syed_yusuf said:


> Eventually yes, 10-12 years from now Pakistan will going to have nuclear powered sub.




we dont need one

we need a SSK + Nuclear Babur thats enough

but I know about the higher leadership in the PN who are advocating for SSN


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## Bratva

So Hangoor Class is facing delays because Germany refused to give engines. That's why there is not a single update on Hangoor from China or else It was supposed to be deliever this year. 2 subs


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1510992035507023880
Once again Indian newspapers were the first one to report. Shows how much they know about Pakistani acquisitions and leaks it to their press









Germany's reluctance to supply engines casts shadow on China's desire to make submarines for Pakistan


The first two submarines are to be commissioned in April and October next year. Two more are planned for 2023, in January and December respectively, after which there are to be four, one each from 2025 to 2028.




www.timesnownews.com













Angela Merkel dashes Imran Khan hopes to make Pak subs more lethal, says won’t help


Pakistan had requested Germany for access to the air independent propulsion (AIP) system that can recharge submarine batteries without having to surface for longer periods.




www.hindustantimes.com

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## SD 10

Bratva said:


> So Hangoor Class is facing delays because Germany refused to give engines. That's why there is not a single update on Hangoor from China or else It was supposed to be deliever this year. 2 subs
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1510992035507023880
> Once again Indian newspapers were the first one to report. Shows how much they know about Pakistani acquisitions and leaks it to their press
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Germany's reluctance to supply engines casts shadow on China's desire to make submarines for Pakistan
> 
> 
> The first two submarines are to be commissioned in April and October next year. Two more are planned for 2023, in January and December respectively, after which there are to be four, one each from 2025 to 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesnownews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Angela Merkel dashes Imran Khan hopes to make Pak subs more lethal, says won’t help
> 
> 
> Pakistan had requested Germany for access to the air independent propulsion (AIP) system that can recharge submarine batteries without having to surface for longer periods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hindustantimes.com


i am surprise china doesn`t make engine for subs? how is it possible? how are they getting their own engines especially for nuclear boomers?

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## Bratva

SD 10 said:


> i am surprise china doesn`t make engine for subs? how is it possible? how are getting their own engines especially for nuclear boomers?



One Pakistani Navy officer said to me. What china makes is for their environment. South China seas. What Pakistan requires is something for Arabian seas which is completely different from SCS. Hence the reason Pakistan not using Chinese engines and prefer something which works in the Arabian sea

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## SD 10

Bratva said:


> One Pakistani Navy officer said to me. What china makes is for their environment. South China seas. What Pakistan requires is something for Arabian seas which is completely different from SCS. Hence the reason Pakistan not using Chinese engines and prefer something which works in the Arabian sea


so does the turks makes something in this regard?

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## Bratva

SD 10 said:


> so does the turks makes something in this regard?



Nope. Or else we would'nt be looking at Germans or French to provide us stuff. As Bajwa mentioned and confirmed by Defense officials, A-90 B support is also ceased. France has refused to lend support for A-90 maintenance.

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## Abid123

syed_yusuf said:


> Eventually yes, 10-12 years from now Pakistan will going to have nuclear powered sub.


Nuclear submarine as in SSN or SSBN?


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## SD 10

Bratva said:


> Nope. Or else we would'nt be looking at Germans or French to provide us stuff. As Bajwa mentioned and confirmed by Defense officials, A-90 B support is also ceased. France has refused to lend support for A-90 maintenance.


Well, previous track record suggest Chinese will come up with something as they normally do in Pakistan`s case. Hopefully sooner!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bratva said:


> Nope. Or else we would'nt be looking at Germans or French to provide us stuff. As Bajwa mentioned and confirmed by Defense officials, A-90 B support is also ceased. France has refused to lend support for A-90 maintenance.


There was a Janes report a few months back claiming the PN is interested in 2 Type 214s via Turkey (i.e Reiss-class, which Turkey and Germany were jointly marketing). No other details.

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## nomi007

There are chances that Thai navy will not buy Chinese Subs due to budget issue. In this regard, I think PN must consider buying these subs also.

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## Bilal.

nomi007 said:


> There are chances that Thai navy will not buy Chinese Subs due to budget issue. In this regard, I think PN must consider buying these subs also.


They are also facing the same engine issue.

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## WotTen

Bratva said:


> One Pakistani Navy officer said to me. What china makes is for their environment. South China seas. What Pakistan requires is something for Arabian seas which is completely different from SCS. Hence the reason Pakistan not using Chinese engines and prefer something which works in the Arabian sea



This doesn't make sense. Does that mean Chinese subs cannot operate globally and are restricted to South China Sea?

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## Luosifen

WotTen said:


> This doesn't make sense. Does that mean Chinese subs cannot operate globally and are restricted to South China Sea?


China's nuclear sub fleet can operate globally, its conventional subs are for local defense as they have less endurance. Give China time, they can make modifications suited for Pakistan's needs as they have done for other hardware in Pakistan's arsenal (JF-17, Z-10ME, J-10CE, etc.).

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## Falcon26

Bilal. said:


> They are also facing the same engine issue.



Please provide a source.

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## Bratva

Falcon26 said:


> Please provide a source.



China Is Selling Thailand a Submarine. Problem Is, No Engines.​The deal stipulates the use of German diesel engines that Germany won’t export to China​By Niharika Mandhana

Mar. 14, 2022 5:30 am ET



SINGAPORE—The submarine that China is building for Thailand is missing something: engines.
The deal calls for China to equip the submarine with diesel engines made by Germany’s MTU Friedrichshafen GmbH, according to a Thai navy spokesman. But Germany is barring export of the engines to China, strictly applying a European Union arms embargo imposed in 1989, after Chinese authorities used deadly force against protesters in Beijing’s Tiananmen Square.

*That creates an embarrassing situation for China. The $410 million deal was one of two seen as milestones in China’s defense-export ambitions and became a symbol of closer ties between Beijing and Thailand, a U.S. ally. The other is the multibillion-dollar sale of eight submarines to Pakistan, which declined to say whether the deal calls for German engines. Germany didn’t respond to requests for comment on the matter.*

On the Thai deal, however, Germany’s defense attaché in Thailand, Philipp Doert, said last month in the Bangkok Post that the export of diesel engines was refused because it was for a Chinese military or defense-industry item. China hadn’t consulted with Germany before signing the contract offering the MTU engines, he said.

China’s foreign ministry told The Wall Street Journal that the embargo “has long been inconsistent with the current international situation, the development of China-EU relations and the comprehensive strategic partnership between China and the EU.” It expressed hope that the EU would “make a correct decision as soon as possible.”

Some European governments pushed to scrap the China arms embargo in 2005, drawing objections from the U.S., which argued that such a move would hurt the balance of relations between China and Taiwan. But the embargo has never operated as an all-out ban. EU nations’ differing interpretations have made room for certain exports to continue. Items that have both civilian and military uses, for example, are sometimes allowed.







The original plan to buy three submarines was cut back after a public outcry over the cost that included this Bangkok protest in September of 2020.PHOTO: ANDRE MALERBA/ZUMA PRESS

For a time, German-made diesel engines fell into that category, said Siemon Wezeman, a senior researcher with the arms-transfer program of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. The institute estimates that 56 MTU diesel engines have been transferred to China since 1989 for Song-class attack submarines. The database also shows that at least 26 MTU engines were used in Chinese destroyers.

*But the submarine needle has moved. MTU said last year, responding to a report by German television broadcaster ARD and newspaper Welt am Sonntag, that in the past it had delivered engines for Song-class submarines—sales it said were approved by German authorities. But since then there had been a change in the regulations, the company said in the statement it shared with the Journal.

“We have finally discontinued the supply of engines for Chinese submarines,” it said.*

MTU didn’t respond to a request for comment on when the regulatory shift occurred, and declined to comment on the Thai case. Germany’s foreign ministry didn’t respond to a request for comment on the shift.

The submarine for Thailand, called S26T, is an export variant of the Chinese navy’s Yuan-class submarine, a successor to the Song-class subs. As of December 2020, China hadn’t supplied Yuan-class submarines to any country, according to the U.S. Department of Defense’s 2021 report on military developments involving China.


*Since China can’t comply with Thailand’s engine requirement, the terms of the deal need to be amended in a way that doesn’t disadvantage the Thai navy, said naval spokesman Vice Admiral Pokkrong Monthatphalin. The two sides are in talks and China has offered other engines, but no agreement has been reached, he said, adding that the submarine’s delivery could be delayed as a result*.

Negotiations over defense contracts rarely play out publicly, but the problem with the engines emerged after the Bangkok Post published a story last month saying Germany’s objection was that China would use them in a submarine to be sold to a third country, in this case Thailand. The German defense attaché, Mr. Doert, responded the next day that the problem wasn’t the engines’ ultimate destination, but that they were first going to China’s defense industry.

The deal was already the center of a national controversy in Thailand. Authorities had originally planned to buy three submarines for nearly $1.1 billion, but delayed the purchase of two after a public outcry over the cost as the pandemic ravaged the economy.

Experts say countries shopping for sophisticated arms may think twice about buying from China if their orders involve EU components, given the possibility of delays and cost overruns.

“Future clients may have to consider those risks when they evaluate Chinese bids,” said Collin Koh, a research fellow at Singapore’s S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies. “Given the prevailing strategic environment where China is facing a growing Western clampdown on tech, Beijing may possibly lose potential arms sales and even the prospect of expanding its market outreach to clients that fall outside its traditional sphere of customers.”
Wilawan Watcharasakwet in Bangkok contributed to this article.

*Write to *Niharika Mandhana at niharika.mandhana@wsj.com









China Is Selling Thailand a Submarine. Problem Is, No Engines.


When Thailand ordered a submarine from China, the deal specified a particular diesel engine from Germany. But the German government said no.




www.wsj.com






Thailand’s Chinese submarine order hits snag after Germany’s export embargo on MTU engines​
The first Yuan Class S26T worth US$408 million is being assembled without German engines as promised, said a Thai opposition lawmaker
German military attaché says German engines cannot be used in Chinese military and defence items
​​Thailand’s purchase of a Chinese-made Yuan Class S26T submarine worth 13.5 billion baht (US$408 million) has stalled over the manufacturer’s failure to obtain German-made diesel engines as stipulated in the contract.​State-owned conglomerate China Shipbuilding & Offshore International signed an agreement with Thailand’s Navy in 2017 for the submarine. The Thai navy said the deal was a government-to-government type, however, it bypassed any approval from the military-backed appointed parliament or the office of the auditor general.​​The first vessel is expected to arrive in 2024, but a Thai opposition lawmaker – who was on the parliamentary subcommittee scrutinising the navy’s budget for the 2021-22 financial year – revealed last month that the submarine was being assembled without the engines.​​​Thailand’s purchase of a Chinese-made Yuan Class S26T submarine worth 13.5 billion baht (US$408 million) has stalled over the manufacturer’s failure to obtain German-made diesel engines as stipulated in the contract.State-owned conglomerate China Shipbuilding & Offshore International signed an agreement with Thailand’s Navy in 2017 for the submarine. The Thai navy said the deal was a government-to-government type, however, it bypassed any approval from the military-backed appointed parliament or the office of the auditor general.​​The first vessel is expected to arrive in 2024, but a Thai opposition lawmaker – who was on the parliamentary subcommittee scrutinising the navy’s budget for the 2021-22 financial year – revealed last month that the submarine was being assembled without the engines.​​​Yutthapong Charasathien of Pheu Thai, the party linked to exiled premier Thaksin Shinawatra, told a press conference on February 27 that China was currently facing a problem in obtaining engines made by German manufacturer MTU.​“Why didn’t Thailand deal with countries that can produce their own submarine’s engines? Why would the Thai navy continue with the plans to buy the second and the third when the first one did not get an engine yet? I still insist the purchase is not transparent,” he said.Yutthapong and other opposition lawmakers were part of a minority group that opposed the vote to approve the navy’s procurement of another two submarines in 2020. The navy recently delayed the budget proposal of the two vessels worth 22.5 billion baht citing the state of the Thai economy due to Covid-19.​​It followed a backlash from the Thai public who slammed the deal as being extremely inappropriate given the economic situation, saying the country should use its funds to obtain vaccines for the population.​​Thailand, despite being one of the United States’ two security treaty allies in Southeast Asia, has grown closer to China and relied on Beijing as its arms supplier since former general Prayuth Chan-ocha first took control of the country in a 2014 coup.​The submarines would have been Thailand’s first such vessels – its neighbours Malaysia, Vietnam, Singapore and Indonesia already operate submarines. The Thai navy said the submarines would help prevent intrusions into the Gulf of Thailand and would also strengthen maritime security, in light of a growing US-China rivalry and the heightened risk of incidents in the South China Sea.​​Yutthapong said that there was a possibility that the submarine contract between Thailand and China had to be revised to accommodate the installation of Chinese, instead of German, engines.​​Philipp Doert, Germany’s Federal Military Attaché to Thailand, in a letter published by the Bangkok Post last month, clarified the country’s position on the matter. He said Germany did not refuse to export the engine for the submarine because it was being used in a third country, Thailand.​​“The export was refused because of its use for a Chinese Military/Defence industry item. China did not ask/coordinate with Germany before signing the Thai-China contract, offering German MTU engines as part of their product,” he said.​The navy has faced questions from the public about whether it had prior knowledge of German policy. A day after Yutthapong’s press conference, the Thai navy spokesperson said Germany’s embargo policy was “the problem that China needed to sort out”.​He added that the Thai navy had agreed to the S26T submarine to be installed with three German-made MTU396 engines and that the agreement should be followed through.​​“The Thai navy is now working with [the Chinese shipbuilder] to try to find a solution together,” said the spokesperson.​Termsak Chalermpalanupap, a Thailand specialist who is a visiting fellow at Singapore’s Iseas-Yusof Ishak Institute, said the navy had clarified that it learned of the German restriction only after placing its order for the first S26T submarine.​But during this period, it had continued to tell “the Thai public that the China-built submarine will be equipped with the Germany-made modern diesel engine with the AIP (air-independent propulsion) system for silent operations under the water,” he said.​​As China and Thailand had good relations, he believed both sides would find a solution. If not, the Thai navy would have to negotiate with the Chinese state-owned shipbuilder.​​“I suspect the latter might not have disclosed the German restrictions when it dealt with the [navy] If this was the case, then the [navy] will have a good reason to cancel the contract and get a refund,” he said.​The Chinese embassy in Thailand did not reply to an email requesting comment.​Still, Thai media reports say China is currently proposing to transfer two Song-class decommissioned submarines to Thailand. It transferred a Ming-class UMS Minye Kyaw Htin to the Myanmar navy in December, a year after Myanmar received a Kilo-class submarine from India in 2020. The Thai navy has not commented on this.​​Yutthapong, who in 2020 was threatened with a defamation lawsuit by the Thai navy, also questioned why China Shipbuilding & Offshore International won the bid to build berthing facilities for submarines in Thailand’s eastern Sattahip naval base. He added that construction has not progressed as planned.​​In response, the Thai navy said construction of the 857 million baht berthing facilities, which began in April 2021 and is set to be completed in 2023, was according to normal bidding procedure. It added that the CSOC was also fully authorised by China’s State Administration of Science, Technology and Industry for National Defence to proceed with the submarine contract with Thailand.​​​Thailand-based security analyst Paul Chambers said China would need to “convince Germany that it is in Berlin’s national interests to allow an exception to the embargo [on the engine].”​​“The submarine deal is one of the most expensive single weapons purchases the Thai navy has ever made. One question exists too – to what extent [the Chinese shipbuilder] … is unofficially required to follow the mandates of Beijing.”​​Chambers added that China’s offer of the decommissioned submarines showed it had a military surplus and wanted to maintain close military relations and military diplomacy with Thailand.​​“Most likely, the two countries potentially have too many joint interests to let a submarine mishap divide them. But I am sure that if Thailand does not receive from China what she paid for, she will demand some form of compensation,” he said.​​








Thailand’s Chinese submarine order hits snag after German export embargo


Chinese shipbuilder’s Yuan Class S26T has three diesel engines by manufacturer MTU. But the German military attaché to Thailand says German engines cannot be used in Chinese military and defence items.




www.scmp.com




​​​​


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There was a Janes report a few months back claiming the PN is interested in 2 Type 214s via Turkey (i.e Reiss-class, which Turkey and Germany were jointly marketing). No other details.



Since you raised this point. I guess Pakistan is onto something. Main Gripe of Germany is they won't sell engines to China because subs being made in China. Just read the above 2 articles I posted.

But what if sub manufacturing transfer to Pakistan and Pakistan uses Turkey to purchase those german engines., claiming they are for Type 214.

Germany refused AIP modules for chinese subs for the same reason they are refusing engines. It is a chinese product. Interesting times ahead, lets see if Pakistan is able to circumvent the Ban of engines by indigenizing the product

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## Areesh

Luosifen said:


> China's nuclear sub fleet can operate globally, its conventional subs are for local defense as they have less endurance. Give China time, they can make modifications suited for Pakistan's needs as they have done for other hardware in Pakistan's arsenal (JF-17, Z-10ME, J-10CE, etc.).



Totally agreed. It is just matter of time for China

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bratva said:


> Since you raised this point. I guess Pakistan is onto something. Main Gripe of Germany is they won't sell engines to China because subs being made in China. Just read the above 2 articles I posted.
> 
> But what if sub manufacturing transfer to Pakistan and Pakistan uses Turkey to purchase those german engines., claiming they are for Type 214.
> 
> Germany refused AIP modules for chinese subs for the same reason they are refusing engines. It is a chinese product. Interesting times ahead, lets see if Pakistan is able to circumvent the Ban of engines by indigenizing the product


Indeed. One other possibility is that the PN is 'greasing the wheels' in Germany by saying, "okay, we'll buy a few Type 214s, but in return, we need you to release the engines for the Chinese subs." Interestingly, when we revived the submarine program in 2015, we didn't take the Germans up despite them clearing a loan for the 3 original Type 214s back in 2009. That might have stung Berlin.

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## BoggedDown

Hangor submarine project is very important for Pakistan's national security.

If you do not have any define information regarding this project do not spread nonsense fake news and avoid stupid speculation.

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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Indeed. One other possibility is that the PN is 'greasing the wheels' in Germany by saying, "okay, we'll buy a few Type 214s, but in return, we need you to release the engines for the Chinese subs." Interestingly, when we revived the submarine program in 2015, we didn't take the Germans up despite them clearing a loan for the 3 original Type 214s back in 2009. That might have stung Berlin.


If Pakistan has to buy German submarines to appease them, it might as well go for a platform that will enable a qualitative enhancement to the PN. Perhaps looking into getting a few U-212CD. Longer range, lower signatures.

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## waz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Indeed. One other possibility is that the PN is 'greasing the wheels' in Germany by saying, "okay, we'll buy a few Type 214s, but in return, we need you to release the engines for the Chinese subs." Interestingly, when we revived the submarine program in 2015, we didn't take the Germans up despite them clearing a loan for the 3 original Type 214s back in 2009. That might have stung Berlin.



That would be a prudent move and the history is there. The Germans will sell, they haven't had anything note worthy in years. The French sail ahead of them.


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## araz

waz said:


> That would be a prudent move and the history is there. The Germans will sell, they haven't had anything note worthy in years. The French sail ahead of them.


Traditionally the German govtt has been a lot more cautious about what they sell to whom as compared to the French. The 214 experience has left them very sour towards Pakistan. Getting another 3-4 subs to get engines maynot be a bad move but will the germans bite? Especially as I think the move is coming from st elsewhere( uncleSam). 
A

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## waz

araz said:


> Traditionally the German govtt has been a lot more cautious about what they sell to whom as compared to the French. The 214 experience has left them very sour towards Pakistan. Getting another 3-4 subs to get engines maynot be a bad move but will the germans bite? Especially as I think the move is coming from st elsewhere( uncleSam).
> A



True hence why I emphasised past history i.e. we do have approach with them. I'd go out on a limb and say the Germans would welcome it, and it gives their ailing defence industry a shot in the arm. Bajwa's recent statements made the EU lot very happy so now would be a good time. 
I'm afraid we're in a pickle with the engines and the fleet needs vessels ASAP. Although the Agosta's have another 10 years left in them it's just three submarines. We'll have a situation for the first time the surface fleet is far stronger.

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## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Indeed. One other possibility is that the PN is 'greasing the wheels' in Germany by saying, "okay, we'll buy a few Type 214s, but in return, we need you to release the engines for the Chinese subs." Interestingly, when we revived the submarine program in 2015, we didn't take the Germans up despite them clearing a loan for the 3 original Type 214s back in 2009. That might have stung Berlin.



Until then we are stuck with no Hangor upgrades? My question now incase of conflict we will be few subs short of action since they on dry dock?


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## Yasser76

waz said:


> True hence why I emphasised past history i.e. we do have approach with them. I'd go out on a limb and say the Germans would welcome it, and it gives their ailing defence industry a shot in the arm. Bajwa's recent statements made the EU lot very happy so now would be a good time.
> I'm afraid we're in a pickle with the engines and the fleet needs vessels ASAP. Although the Agosta's have another 10 years left in them it's just three submarines. We'll have a situation for the first time the surface fleet is far stronger.



Germans will not be bothered about us now, after Russia/Ukraine they are about to embark on a massive rearmament programme and almost double their defence budget. They are taking Euros 100 Billion from 2022 budget alone to requip. A lot will also be spent on Navy. We are last in line and ouur $2-3 Billion will not mean much to them.

Best get Chinese alternative, for them money comes second to creating a strong Pak Armed forces

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## waz

Yasser76 said:


> Germans will not be bothered about us now, after Russia/Ukraine they are about to embark on a massive rearmament programme and almost double their defence budget. They are taking Euros 100 Billion from 2022 budget alone to requip. A lot will also be spent on Navy. We are last in line and ouur $2-3 Billion will not mean much to them.
> 
> Best get Chinese alternative, for them money comes second to creating a strong Pak Armed forces



True but $2-3 billion ain't small fry, it's also an export which can be touted by their defence industry. At the moment we have engine issues with the Chinese subs. An split order (less German more Chinese) should be ok.

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## Inception-06

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Indeed. One other possibility is that the PN is 'greasing the wheels' in Germany by saying, "okay, we'll buy a few Type 214s, but in return, we need you to release the engines for the Chinese subs." Interestingly, when we revived the submarine program in 2015, we didn't take the Germans up despite them clearing a loan for the 3 original Type 214s back in 2009. That might have stung Berlin.



Germans refused to sell us submarines in past so why they should change their minds now ?


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## Luosifen

You may as well take those billions you'd pay Germany for off-the-shelf product and co-develop an engine optimized for Indian Ocean conditions with Shaanxi Diesel (http://www.shsxd.com/en/) or another Chinese company, that way you'd own the part of the IP and can do your own exports and earn back that investment.

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## [--Leo--]

are we getting the engines or not?


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## Great Janjua

Pakistan should have expected this beforehand. Another saga in our defence procurements.

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## Areesh

[--Leo--] said:


> are we getting the engines or not?



Obviously we are getting engines 

If Chinese can make and deploy engines for South China Sea then why can't they do it for Arabian sea with some tweaks and changes? They have enough experience and strong R&D for that

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## Rafi

We will receive the subs, that is a guarantee

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## Great Janjua

Rafi said:


> We will receive the subs, that is a guarantee


That is a no brainer but will there be any engines?. it's a spooky paradox.

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## DrWatson775

As I understand it the Germans do not want to transfer engines to Chinese Defence Industry or in short they dont want to transfer the engines to China. They may have agreed to this before but dont want to do this now. 

The question is can the completed subs come to Karachi for engine installation; only way this can happen if they come with a Chinese engine and this is then changed. But the Germans may come up with another excuse to withhold the engines then.

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## Yasser76

Germans must of given us assurances on these engines then backed out last minute, must of been for a major reason as this will damage their credibility as arms suppliers. Anyway, I say f**k'em, eventually China, South Korea and Turkey will be producing world class sub engines, just that we need those Hangors asap

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## GriffinsRule

Seems like PN didn't have all their Is dotted and Ts crossed. 
Alternative would be to have all the subs built in Pakistan. 
Sheds light on why the Chinese were willing to have PN train on their own sub in the interim now.

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## PakFactor

GriffinsRule said:


> Seems like PN didn't have all their Is dotted and Ts crossed.
> Alternative would be to have all the subs built in Pakistan.
> Sheds light on why the Chinese were willing to have PN train on their own sub in the interim now.



@Bilal Khan (Quwa) 
Question the Hangors going being upgraded they sitting on dry dock unusable until an engine is found?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> Seems like PN didn't have all their Is dotted and Ts crossed.
> Alternative would be to have all the subs built in Pakistan.
> Sheds light on why the Chinese were willing to have PN train on their own sub in the interim now.


It's a lesson on why we need to invest in critical industries (like engines). We can't take any supplier for granted. It's not so much about "reinventing the wheel" but "making sure we have a wheel, no matter what." It may take 20, 30, or 50 years, but better to start now than to not have an option. In this case, we literally ran into a "no option" scenario. We could not have done more except to basically have our own engine. 



PakFactor said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Question the Hangors going being upgraded they sitting on dry dock unusable until an engine is found?


tbh I don't know. Based on Gen. Bajwa's statements, it seems that's the case. However, it wouldn't surprise me if the PN simply goes with the engines the Chinese do have and stick with it until the better alternative is ready. By that point, the PN can run the subs through a mid-life-update.

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## Dreamer.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's a lesson on why we need to invest in critical industries (like engines). We can't take any supplier for granted. It's not so much about "reinventing the wheel" but "making sure we have a wheel, no matter what." It may take 20, 30, or 50 years, but better to start now than to not have an option. In this case, we literally ran into a "no option" scenario. We could not have done more except to basically have our own engine.


Absolutely correct. No matter how long it takes, but we'll never get there if we don't start! In that respect I think muslim countries need to pool their resources aswell. If only there was such a thing as unity among our ranks....whihc sadly doesn't exist. Still countries like Pakistan, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia could do something if they cooperate at some level. I just feel that if a such a bloc could just start then other countries may eventually join. It doesn't have to be a political one and especially not overly overt but could start with some joint ventures or scientific/technological cooperation.

Regarding engines for submarines, if the chinese ones aren't suitable for arabian sea then what about russians? Don't they have the requisite technology ? In the new geopolitical scenario couldn't the chinese manage a lot of technology transfer from the russians to improve their own engines?

I mean don't the indians use russian submarines with russian engines? What engines do they use in their locally build submarines?

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## Yasser76

Looks like it was not just us the Germans screwed over, Thai is backing out of the deal for the same Subs. Unsure how far the line we are with the manufacturing of our subs, but if China cannot physically deliver them due to an embargo on China itself, looks like we may well be able to just buy German subs instead.

Choices for conventional powered subs are limited outside of China.

Sweden
France
Spain
South Korea
Turkey
Germany

All of the above are suseptible to US pressure or will require German engines too, we may well be very screwed here chaps.









Decision on submarine deal only after talks, says Navy chief


The Royal Thai Navy is expected to make a decision on the Chinese submarine deal by the end of this month.




www.nationthailand.com

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## Yasser76

Mahmood-ur-Rehman said:


> No need to waste money if our generals remain slave to America




Are you going to contribute anything meaningful on this forum?

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## Rafi

Trust the Chinese, they didn't become a global superpower by bs'ing.

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## Defencelover1997

Yasser76 said:


> Germans must of given us assurances on these engines then backed out last minute, must of been for a major reason as this will damage their credibility as arms suppliers. Anyway, I say f**k'em, eventually China, South Korea and Turkey will be producing world class sub engines, just that we need those Hangors asap


If turkey can produces submarine engine why can't Pakistan produce it?

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## [--Leo--]

Defencelover1997 said:


> If turkey can produces submarine engine why can't Pakistan produce it?


still where to get engines ?


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## Tipu7

Rafi said:


> Trust the Chinese, they didn't become a global superpower by bs'ing.



Of course Chinese option is there,

BUT,

that option is definitely not the best one.

Chinese subs modernized with state of art Western tech were supposed to give Pakistan's underwater arm a balanced capability between quality and quantity.

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## S.Y.A

Rafi said:


> Trust the Chinese, they didn't become a global superpower by bs'ing.


can the chinese tech stand toe-to-toe with US or Europe (honest Question)?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Rafi said:


> Trust the Chinese, they didn't become a global superpower by bs'ing.


If the conventional subs have engine issues go for the boomers...

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

S.Y.A said:


> can the chinese tech stand toe-to-toe with US or Europe (honest Question)?


The technology development progresses linearly, not through quantum leaps. The West started much earlier, the Chinese are catching up with the following leverages:

A much larger talent pool. If West puts 10 engineers/scientists for a project, the Chinese put 100 engineers/scientists. So, acceleration is 10x higher
The Chinese have access to the already developed platforms: it a HUUGE plus. All property is stolen - Karl Marx
The Chinese have the motivation to supersede the opponents. If a western folk works for 8 hrs/day a Chinese folk works for 16 hrs/day
Etc.

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## S.Y.A

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The technology development progresses linearly, not through quantum leaps. The West started much earlier, the Chinese are catching up with the following leverages:
> 
> A much larger talent pool. If West puts 10 engineers/scientists for a project, the Chinese put 100 engineers/scientists. So, acceleration is 10x higher
> The Chinese have access to the already developed platforms: it a HUUGE plus. All property is stolen - Karl Marx
> The Chinese have the motivation to supersede the opponents. If a western folk works for 8 hrs/day a Chinese folk works for 16 hrs/day
> Etc.


still doesnt answer the question. is it equal to what was on offer/required right now?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

S.Y.A said:


> still doesnt answer the question. is it equal to what was on offer/required right now?


The inference is with time it'll cross over the West. I have no clue where they stand now. But, a bird in hand is better that a 100 in bushes. Something is better than nothing...



Tipu7 said:


> Of course Chinese option is there,
> 
> BUT,
> 
> that option is definitely not the best one.
> 
> Chinese subs modernized with state of art Western tech was supposed to give Pakistan's underwater arm a balanced capability between quality and quantity.


In this case Pak may join the Turkish MILDEN (National Submarine) project...

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## S.Y.A

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The inference is with time it'll cross over the West. I have no clue where they stand now. But, a bird in hand is better that a 100 in bushes. Something is better than nothing...


that something will now be delayed, and will cause cost overruns, will leave gaps that will compromise security etc. etc.



Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> In this case Pak may join the Turkish MILDEN (National Submarine) project...


will it be delivered for the same price, and in the same time frame as the ones already on order?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

S.Y.A said:


> will it be delivered for the same price, and in the same time frame as the ones already on order?


Thanks to the exposure to the German submarine technology under TOT and local manufacturing, a ecosystem for the crucial components R&D and manufacturing is coming to reality fast. As for design, metallurgy, body, electronics, acoustics, systems controls, battle management, AIP, integration etc., indigenous platforms are ready as they are being integrated into the current subs. As for the marine/sub engine, a JV has been formed with the Ukrainian companies...

As for the MILDEN project progress, the first submarine to be delivered in 2030...









Milli denizaltı projesi MİLDEN başladı, ilk teslimat 2030'da yapılacak


Türkiye Deniz Kuvvetleri Komutanlığı’nın yerli ve milli imkanlarla yapılması planlanan Milli Denizaltı Projesi (MİLDEN) resmen başlatıldı. İlk teslimat 2030'da yapılacak




tr.euronews.com

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

S.Y.A said:


> can the chinese tech stand toe-to-toe with US or Europe (honest Question)?



Chinese tech is second to none. Chinese men are not called the smartest men on the planet for nothing.


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## Rafi

A solution is already underway......nuff said.



Tipu7 said:


> Of course Chinese option is there,
> 
> BUT,
> 
> that option is definitely not the best one.
> 
> Chinese subs modernized with state of art Western tech were supposed to give Pakistan's underwater arm a balanced capability between quality and quantity.



China has offered a solution that is close or surpassed the Gerries. THEY WILL COME LOL.

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## GriffinsRule

Rafi said:


> A solution is already underway......nuff said.
> 
> 
> 
> China has offered a solution that is close or surpassed the Gerries. THEY WILL COME LOL.


So why were they using German engines on their own subs?

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## Yasser76

Defencelover1997 said:


> If turkey can produces submarine engine why can't Pakistan produce it?



Could be wrong but I think Turks are using German engines too


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## Ali_Baba

AMG_12 said:


> China would do us a favour by not transferring its top of the line tech. If our sitting armed forces chief can conspire and bent over to the US, he can also sell off military secrets.



I agree - Pakistan had only recently "turned" the corner and earnt their trust as demonstrated by the sale of the PL15s/J10CE's etc..

Will be interesting to see the fallout of this in the months to come - and there will be fallout.


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## araz

Ali_Baba said:


> I agree - Pakistan had only recently "turned" the corner and earnt their trust as demonstrated by the sale of the PL15s/J10CE's etc..
> 
> Will be interesting to see the fallout of this in the months to come - and there will be fallout.


I think the fallout, at least in military to military contact will be minimal. There maybe economic repercussions but even there the Chinese are trapped and forced to deal with the government at hand despite their unusually strong and open support for the IK setup.

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## Yasser76

So we have managed to almost isolate ourselves from Europe, US and now China. Good going....


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## Mahmood-ur-Rehman

Yasser76 said:


> Are you going to contribute anything meaningful on this forum?


What these generals have done last night is meaningful

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## Shotgunner51

GriffinsRule said:


> So why were they using German engines on their own subs?


The MTU 16V396 SE8 was MTU design & patent, licensed made in China by Shanxi Diesel (中国山西柴油机公司) and used in early batches of 039 aka 039A, 039AG.

This model number was specified in the signed contract between China-Thailand in May 2017
Later Germany refused to give export permit, German military attaché _“The export was refused because of its use for a Chinese Military/Defence industry item. China did not ask/coordinate with Germany before signing the Thai-China contract, offering German MTU engines as part of their product”_
Thai opposition party led by Yutthapong Charasathien of Pheu Thai (note: the party linked to exiled premier Thaksin Shinawatra) uses this _"breach of contract"_ loophole to torpedo the deal.
Technically speaking, MTU 16V396 SE8 can be easily substituted by a Shanxi Diesel equivalent or maybe even further improved version (new batches of 039 aka 039B/C use undisclosed model of diesel engine), but it's a Thai domestic-political decision to kill the deal.

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## waz

Can we keep political posts off here please. Concentrate on the topic at hand. I'm sure the Chinese will find a solution if not a German buy for submarines is no problem for Pakistan at all, sale or fund wise.

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## BoggedDown

If order of diesel propulsion submarine can not be fulfilled due to for example engine restriction from Germany. then China will provide nuclear propulsion to Pakistan. I do not know how that helps Germany or Europe anyway.

Chinese AIP technology is not from Germany rather from Sweden sterling type which Chinese have reengineered totally themselves and exceeding their original ones.

PN A90B are reserviced with Turkish technology and first one is already done and second one is in progress.

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## Yasser76

Tejaswithuttam said:


> Propulsion engineering is one of the Chinese military industry’s biggest structural flaws, as the bulk of engines used in Chinese submarines is foreign-made. The Song and Yuan-class attack submarines, which make up the majority of China’s conventional submarine fleet, are powered by MTU 396 SE84 series diesel engines built in Germany.
> The chance for PN to source an original Type 039 engine for its sub is grim given the German reticence to supply the engines to China. They've also denied Pakistan's request for supply of air independent propulsion (AIP) systems for its submarines.
> A-90 B support is also ceased. France has refused to lend support for A-90 maintenance. And as long as it isn't sorted out, India will continue to breath easy.
> https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/in...nights-to-enemies-dangerous-2022-04-15-769973
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Navy commissioned the 2nd P-8I squadron - Naval News
> 
> 
> Indian Naval Air Squadron 316, Indian Navy's second P-8I aircraft squadron has been commissioned into the Indian Navy on 29 March 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.navalnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehindu.com/news/national/delivery-of-stealth-frigates-as-per-schedule-russia/article65326853.ece/amp/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India receives military supplies from Moscow amid Russia-Ukraine war
> 
> 
> India continues to receive Russian supplies for its defence forces in the midst of the Russia-Ukraine conflict.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.indiatoday.in



You need to get your info from good sources, not Indian media. 3 A90-Bs are all being upgraded in Turkey, with very modern systems, these and the AIPs make them a more deadly threat then anything in the IN right now. In terms of breathing easy I think half the IN spent time chasing one A90-B without any success in Feb 2019. Regards to Indian subs, well, lets just say we have several videos.....

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## CSAW

Tejaswithuttam said:


> Your noisy Chinese submarines will be hunted down by our P8i poseidon and MH60R 🚁


Plz update the Confidential Noise level readings, Acoustic Signatures and Electronic db scale measurements you seem to posses on Chinese subs which make you confident that they would be detected .

By the Way :









Indian nuclear submarine grounded after hatch left open


Arihant, which entered service in August 2016, has spent 10 months in the dry dock to repair seawater damage caused by 'human error'




www.timesofisrael.com

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## IblinI

Maybe the Pakistani can take a look at our new 039C's engine?

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## CSAW

Tejaswithuttam said:


> Lol! Are you high on weed? Arihant has no hatches there. The Arihant is based on double hull design with a sealed nuclear reactor section. Except for the latest French nuclear submarines that have a hatch above the reactor for quicker refuelling.
> No other country with nuclear submarines have such a system.
> Although the Arihant’s core is not designed to operate for the submarine’s lifetime and will need refuelling, it does not have a hatch. To refuel, the hull will have to be cut open and welded back
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehindu.com/news/national/ins-arihant-completes-deterrence-patrol-india-declares-nuclear-traid-operational/article25425436.ece/amp/


You avoided the question on Detection. That shows Who is on weed.

On the Hatch issue - I quoted an Israel source.

Better contact them to correct the story against the great Indian Navy.

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## DF41

Tejaswithuttam said:


> Your noisy Chinese submarines will be hunted down by our P8i poseidon and MH60R 🚁
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India Quietly Launches 3rd Arihant-class Nuclear-powered Submarine, Can Carry 8 Ballistic Missiles: Report
> 
> 
> The first SSBN INS Arihant was commissioned in 2016, while the second, though initially launched in 2014, is awaiting commissioning into the Indian Navy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/eurasiantimes.com/us-expert-calls-indias-mysterious-ballistic-missile-submarine-a-formidable-deterrent-to-regional-opponents/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India’s DRDO achieves new milestone in AIP system development
> 
> 
> Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has achieved an important milestone in the development of air independent propulsion (AIP) system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.naval-technology.com


You go educate yourself.

Written 2 years ao.









Chinese Submarines Are Becoming Quieter: Here's What We Know About The New Type 093


China's Navy has ambitions.




nationalinterest.org





Since then, Chinese subs must be quieter than the ocean. Can only be found by the hole of silence in midst of the noisy ocean of 90 decibels

*Quiet as a Mouse*
_
According to the naval expert H. I. Sutton, Chinese submarine designs and manufacturing were initially far behind that of the United States. In an article for Forbes, he explained that, “the aim is to make the submarine as quiet as the ambient sea noise around it, typically around 90 decibels. Western submarines got close around 20-30 years ago. China has been seen as lagging.” 

Sutton described how the Shang-class may be getting as quiet as some of the U.S. Navy’s quieter subs, “according to unclassified U.S. Navy estimates, the early Type-093 attack submarines are about 110 decibels. That is about the same as the U.S. Navy’s improved Los Angeles Class boats,” which were built in 1982. 

Improvements in reactor coolant pump design may have helped reduce the Shang-class’ acoustic signature. Improved anechoic tiles—rubberized tiles glued to the outside of a submarine’s hull that absorb enemy sonar—may also have helped the Shang-class to pipe down. 

*Postscript*

Since launching the first of the Shang-class in the early 2000s, the PLA Submarine Force has launched two improved versions of the Shang-class, which would in all likelihood be even quieter than the early Type 093s. It may be just a matter of time before Chinese submarines are as quiet at American submarines—if it hasn’t already happened._

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## CSAW

*Someone wants to "Learn" Detection :*














__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499327722879057923

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## DF41

Tejaswithuttam said:


> Your noisy Chinese submarines will be hunted down by our P8i poseidon and MH60R 🚁
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India Quietly Launches 3rd Arihant-class Nuclear-powered Submarine, Can Carry 8 Ballistic Missiles: Report
> 
> 
> The first SSBN INS Arihant was commissioned in 2016, while the second, though initially launched in 2014, is awaiting commissioning into the Indian Navy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/eurasiantimes.com/us-expert-calls-indias-mysterious-ballistic-missile-submarine-a-formidable-deterrent-to-regional-opponents/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India’s DRDO achieves new milestone in AIP system development
> 
> 
> Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has achieved an important milestone in the development of air independent propulsion (AIP) system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.naval-technology.com




Indian submarines are absolutely insignificant compared to the hunting and tracking of USA submarines. Unless you think Indian submarines are much much better and more potent than USA submarines.

If so, do tell us all.



And China got movable underwater mountain to position where USA submarine Connecticut found to her horror and bang right into. And USA submarines all remembered to close their hatches before diving unlike India.









How did a $3 billion US Navy submarine hit an undersea mountain? | CNN


Some submariners call the USS Connecticut the luxury sports car of submarines. It's a $3 billion piece of American military hardware that's fast and outfitted with the latest electronic gadgetry only available when price is not a consideration.




edition.cnn.com













What really happened to USS Connecticut? (Summary of forum discussion)


The Chinese military authorizes the disclosure of the truth about the accident of the Seawolf class nuclear submarine on the USS Connecticut. 16 November 2021 How the Chinese People’s Liberation Army hunted and sunk the (state of the art) USS Connecticut Seawolf-class attack nuclear submarine...



defence.pk





What China can do to hunt and know where the USA submarines hiding.
You think Indian subs can hide better than USA submarines? With hatches closed?
If USA subs cannot hide from the hundreds of underwater sonar buoys sending information back to super computers to know their directions and speed, Indian subs can hide better than USA subs?

*AS SAID, YOU BETTER EDUCATE YOURSELF MUCH MUCH MORE BEFORE YOU EVEN THINK OF WRITING AND EXPOSING TO THE READERS HERE HOW LAUGHABLE YOU REALLY ARE*

China sonar supposed to listen to fish and whales. .
You heard of the Great Wall of China.
Another Great Wall China build will be the Underwater Great Wall of China.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutt...al-waters-of-south-china-sea/?sh=3b72e5cb74f3 
China Builds Surveillance Network In South China Sea​
And what about using lasers and magnets?









China Is Using Lasers And Magnets To Reveal Enemy Submarines


Bad news for the U.S. Navy.




nationalinterest.org





China Is Using Lasers And Magnets To Reveal Enemy Submarines​_Bad news for the U.S. Navy.

by Michael Peck
*Key Point:* Should the U.S. Navy be concerned? Are the days of truly stealth subs over? 
China is making great efforts to detect U.S. submarines.
Scientists at a Chinese research institute say they developed an airborne laser that might eventually detect hostile subs even at great depths.
Meanwhile, scientists at another institute also claim to have developed a magnetic detection device that might spot subs.
Researchers at the Shanghai Institute of Optics and Fine Mechanics say they have tested lasers that can detect objects more than 160 meters (525 feet) beneath the water, or twice as deep as current equipment.
“The Shanghai team used a beam generated by green and blue lasers,” according to the South China Morning Post. “As light – even laser, a pure, coherent form of light – scatters faster in water than in air, the beam must be very powerful to go deep. Laser devices generate an energized beam of light of a single color, or frequency. Green and blue beams can penetrate water with relative ease.
“Chen’s team also developed a highly sensitive detector that can pick up a single photon reflected from a target, allowing the device to detect bright objects close to the surface as well as targets hidden in the deep.”
A team at the Wuhan Institute of Physics and Mathematics say they have devised a magnetic detection sensor that can fit into a capsule the size of a bean. “The device can pick up signals as weak as 20 femtotesla, or about one-fifth the strength of the magnetic field generated by a human brain,” explained the South China Morning Post.
“Although other devices known as magnetic anomaly detectors are much more sensitive, they are bulkier and can only be mounted on planes or helicopters,” the Post added. “Magnetic anomaly detectors used in anti-submarine warfare must operate at temperatures near absolute zero and require lasers, power supplies and gas chambers to achieve high sensitivity.”
In 2018, Chinese scientists said they were developing a laser-equipped satellite that could detect submarines. The idea is to use laser beams of various colors that can detect disturbances in the water caused by a moving submarine.
The question is what will make these devices successful when previous efforts have fizzled. For example, in 2010, DARPA's Deep Sea Operations program sought to develop blue-light lasers for undersea communications and hunting subs. The problem is that orbital laser beams can be affected by clouds, murky water and fish, as well as being scattered in the water.
The new blue-green lasers devised by the Shanghai team reportedly have been tested at lower altitudes, from aircraft flying between 1,500 and 3,000 feet. But aircraft-mounted lasers tend to be low-powered, so it remains to be seen whether the new lasers will be successful in locating deep-diving subs.
As for the Wuhan team’s new magnetic detection sensor, a bean-sized device far smaller than the magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) sensors flown by anti-submarine aircraft would seem to face limitations in power and range. Even some Chinese scientists contacted by the Post were dubious that the magnetic sensor could be useful without further development.
However, such a bite-sized device could be mounted in unmanned aircraft, raising the possibility of swarms of drones hunting subs. Of course, the U.S. is working on its own sub-hunting solutions, including a yacht-sized robot ship that tracks enemy vessels.

====================================================================================================================================================================================================_

*China’s PLAN To Counter US Navy*​In a possible conflict over Taiwan, the 14 SSNs the US currently operates, not all deployed in the region, would have to get closer to the Chinese coast to support their surface fleet and hunt for Chinese submarines. As they get closer to the Chinese coast, the PLAN’s numeric superiority in submarines will be an enormous challenge.

While the PLAN’s submarine fleet will pose a formidable threat to the US Navy, its troubles are far from over. In recent years, China has been investing significant resources in advanced underwater sensors, sonar, and anti-submarine lasers technology to better identify and target US submarines.





China’s nuclear-powered Type 094A Jin-class ballistic missile submarine.
The result is a growing “transparency” in the seas surrounding China. China’s ability to detect American submarines at great distances is improving by the day. China has deployed underwater sensors that allow it to monitor US submarine activity as far as Guam.

Last year, a Chinese underwater drone was washed off the Indonesian island of Selayar close to Northern Australia.

Anti-submarine mines have also received substantial attention from the PLAN and underwater drones to attack American submarines are under development. While these underwater drones seem to be in a developmental stage, the fact that China now has one of the most advanced drone industries in the world should worry the US.

Some analysts have gone as far as predicting that in the next two decades, anti-submarine warfare will be so advanced as to make the submarine redundant. While this remains to be seen, it is certain that new technologies are making submarine operations far more dangerous.




A Chinese Navy submarine. (via Twitter)
With their limitless range, Australia’s planned 8 SSNs could reach the waters around Taiwan fast and substantially reinforce American submarine forces. Once they reach their objective, it remains to be seen how useful they will be. The PLAN doesn’t seem to have any desire to fight a midway-type battle in the high seas.
China plans to fight the US and its allies closer to its shore where it has deployed thousands of missiles, drones, hundreds of modern fighters, advanced air defense systems, and where the waters are becoming “transparently” deadly by the day.

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## KampfAlwin

Tejaswithuttam said:


> Liaoning and shandong are both handicapped by having no airborne radar, j15 jet with only 4000lbs payload and still no nuclear power. Its actually a liability to combat operations at sea.
> 
> Conventional power, the carrier cannot maintain 30knot speed and range.
> 
> J15 is total garbage. Have to choose between CAP, anti ship and strike role. And no AESA radar
> 
> Escort warships have to be burdened to protect j15s in the air which is the opposite of what should be. Less response time to to defend itself and the carrier. Who needs decoys when their j15s can take that role.
> 
> No airborne radar, means there is no radar coverage beyond horizon especially against sea skimming missiles or low alt attack aircraft. Radar waves don't bend to earth curvature. Now that is very dangerous, no strike group can react fast enough against 100 tomahawkVs, NSM or LRASM coming up on the horizon at only 20kms away
> 
> It's a cheap carrier, only a fraction of the price of an American one. And doing 30 kn is nice, but if escort ships can't keep up due to wave height, it makes little sense.


But they do have airborne radar lmao it's called the Z-18J, and soon the KJ-600. And where did you get super specific info about China's ACs ? Did the PLAN give you their specs? Please provide a source that isn't Indian bullshit media.

*Z-18J:*




*KJ-600:*

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## IblinI

some cleanse is needed here.
@waz


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## CSAW

Tejaswithuttam said:


> MH-60R are multi-mission maritime helicopters designed for Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) and Anti-Surface Warfare (ASuW) with the C4I capabilities. The operational capabilities of such airborne assets are enhanced multi-fold when they operate as a part of the Fleet Task Force at sea. These specialised helicopters have the capability to engage targets which are even over-the-horizon.
> 
> P-8Is themselves are an advanced airborne platform with in-built inter-operability capabilities, making them a multi mission aircraft with C4I based Concept of Operations. The P-8I aircraft possess air borne Anti-submarine Warfare (ASW) capabilities and can detect unknown submarines and ships lurking in the waters. It can also launch submarine detection sonobuoys (active and passive types) as part of ASW operations to even find the submarines which are below the water surface.”
> 
> “In a well-coordinated manner, during the Fleet operations, P-8I and MH-60R can jointly provide the ASW screen cover to the fleet ships. ASW air assets are essential for any fleet moving on the high seas, else the Fleet ships are vulnerable to a surprise underwater attack by a stealth submarine of an adversary. The aviation units can open out to ranges which are farther beyond the warship’s on-board sonars, and provide a better submarine detection probability. Thus, these air assets provide an ASW screen, with an intent to detect and neutralize any hostile submarine before it closes-in to a range conducive for it to fire a torpedo. For example, a P-8I can not only detect a target, but can classify and attack it by using on-board torpedoes and depth charges. The aviation units like P-8Is and MH-60R are platforms to not only detect subs, but also fire torpedoes to destroy them well before these targets even pop up on the sonar display of the fleet ships


_*"Your noisy Chinese submarines will be hunted down by our P8i poseidon and MH60R "*_

1- You still didn't provide Noise levels of Chinese submarines . Means No confirmed signatures available - Just trumpet blowing.

2- Conventional wisdom states that diesel-electric submarines tend to be quieter than their nuclear-powered counterparts. 

70 - 90 dB is about as loud as a vacuum cleaner and that too at 1.0 to 3.0 mtrs std displacement - If one is creating this scenario in a noisy shallow water environment many a nm away - its not a Novice job to search AIP Subs.Get Real.

3- Pak Navy could give a better lesson to you as Scorpene Class just keeps getting detected . That's called a Capability demonstration . They may offer Tuition classes for free.,. 

4- Has the Indian Navy demonstrated this GREAT capability yet - If Not - Then vague propaganda only based on addition of Hardware alone. We know How Indians maintain their Assets and How effective their operational battle space coordination is. [We have seen them accidentally fire Missiles, Open up Hatches and AD Shoot down their own Choppers in Jamming environment ]

5- The' God's Creation MH60R' need to be in more than adequate numbers to detect unknown deep submerged vessel , to cover quick sorties and turn around time.

6-MH-60R has a limited range. It is not designed for area searching, but localizing a contact or conducting datum searches.MH-60Rs were not designed for area ASW searches and lack the endurance to search 200 nm from their ship.

They need to come 'close' for a possible detection from a Platform. That Platform itself needs to move at a certain pace to avoid early detection and being blown away by a HWT ?

7- And that would need the platform to evade AA/AD Systems, CH-SS-NX-13 Anti Ship Missiles etc. ?

8- Does Sea Mapping operation of the waters this capability would operate has an impact on the subject - oceanographic conditions can significantly reduce the effectiveness of the sensors ?

9- Its always an ECO System working. In a defensive role with detailed intelligence (long time obtained data), active and passive sensors, MAD, MPA, Green Laser, ASW Helios, Satellites, Active Sonars, Active and Passive Sonobuoys, ED, HDPD, SOSUS, Unmanned ASW units etc with Training , Experience and SA Coordination of highest order required.

But that doesn't mean Life is Static for opposing Navy - Other side opts for technologies such as magnetic signature by running currents through the hull and using non-magnetic hull materials & other assets.

10- Indians just could not find one AGOSTA-90B in last alert.

Hence Can any ASW Platform gives you the capability to insanely remark that opposing Submarine fleet will be destroyed...! ?

This is a game of sword and shield. It will go on. Avoid Rookie cut paste approach and develop some mental capability maturity.

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## CSAW

Tejaswithuttam said:


> Why helicopters for anti submarine warfare you ask? It is because almost all the submarines lack the ability to launch SAM (surface to Air Missile) be it SSBN, SSN and SSK which is why aerial attack is quite simple to perform without any hindrance given the submarine is in international waters with no surface combatants deployed along with the submarine( which is the usual case for submarine deployed in international waters). Helicopter is as slow moving aircraft which can come down to stationary and fire torpedoes at the sub surface target and this cannot be performed by fighter jets due to the lack of accuracy particularly for torpedoes and anti submarine missiles.
> 
> Coming back to MH-60 romeo,it has a superior capability to launch precision guided munitions. It also has a wide array of attachable equipment that can be utilized for carrying out various missions. It can be used for deep penetration missions but under restricted conditions when the enemy lacks precision guided SAMs. On top of that seahawk is combat proven which is a distinct advantage for it’s service(in Iraq).
> 
> 'Romeo’ Seahawk helicopters have advanced combat systems like sensors, missiles, and torpedoes to track and hunt enemy boats and submarines. The helicopter can easily strike fear in a submarine Captain’s mind.
> 
> It has a range of radars and sensors to detect the submarine inside deep sea.
> 
> Sonobuoy launcher and a Raytheon advanced airborne low-frequency (ALFS) dipping sonar to detect submarines at any depth.
> 
> The choppers will be armed with Hellfire missiles, precision kill weapon systems, and MK 54 torpedoes.
> 
> Anti-surface warfare missions: It can carry weapons on the four weapons stations, including AGM-114 Hellfire anti-surface missiles.
> 
> Anti-submarine warfare: Three ATK mk50 or mk46 lightweight torpedoes. 7.62 mm machine gun .


Don't act like a desperate sales man pasting sentences out of a catalog. It further exposes your weak knowledge.

Answer point wise .

Other wise no point arguing with cut paste Rookie.
掩耳盜鈴

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## IblinI

Tejaswithuttam said:


> Chinese nuclear attack subs 'stalking' Britain's new aircraft carrier
> 
> 
> CHINESE nuclear attack submarines have attempted to secretly shadow the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth as it sailed into the Pacific, it emerged today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.express.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As it turns out, the UK’s carrier strike group could pinpoint and locate the Chinese submarines, because China’s rustic and pathetic little underwater boats were too ‘noisy’. The Chinese submarines were located due to their “propeller sounds”. Submarines are naval vessels and assets whose biggest advantage is that they can remain hidden and act decisively in stealth. Submarine targets do not usually know what hit them. But this is certainly not the case with Chinese submarines, whose hallmark is that they are too loud – thus making them easily traceable. China, which claims almost the entirety of the South China Sea, has been caught by the British naval group with its pants down. Operators aboard the frigates, which were working together in a sweep pattern, located the Chinese “stealth” vessels within six hours of leaving the South China Sea.


So, in your opinion, India's sub tech is better than that of China's?

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## IblinI

Tejaswithuttam said:


> I'm talking about the capabilities of advanced ASW platforms


OK but off topic, reported.


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## Great Janjua

Tejaswithuttam said:


> I'm talking about the capabilities of advanced ASW platforms


You have no evidence just blabber that is all at least back your claims with solid proof.

Your just banking on the m60 heli like it's one of a kind in the world. Get your head out of your arse we have detected your subs 3 times.

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## KampfAlwin

Tejaswithuttam said:


>


What does this have to do with the argument? Do you just like to post random images when you can't counter an argument? Is your programming glitching?

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## DF41

Tejaswithuttam said:


> Liaoning and shandong are both handicapped by having no airborne radar, j15 jet with only 4000lbs payload and still no nuclear power. Its actually a liability to combat operations at sea.
> 
> Conventional power, the carrier cannot maintain 30knot speed and range.
> 
> J15 is total garbage. Have to choose between CAP, anti ship and strike role. And no AESA radar
> 
> Escort warships have to be burdened to protect j15s in the air which is the opposite of what should be. Less response time to to defend itself and the carrier. Who needs decoys when their j15s can take that role.
> 
> No airborne radar, means there is no radar coverage beyond horizon especially against sea skimming missiles or low alt attack aircraft. Radar waves don't bend to earth curvature. Now that is very dangerous, no strike group can react fast enough against 100 tomahawkVs, NSM or LRASM coming up on the horizon at only 20kms away
> 
> It's a cheap carrier, only a fraction of the price of an American one. And doing 30 kn is nice, but if escort ships can't keep up due to wave height, it makes little sense.





I gotten enough of the puerile stuff you can churn out.

You graduated from one of this kind of school in India?

With other Indians now in India submarine force?












Do you even understand what you CtrlC and CtrlV?

No need to tell me as my curiosity not that puerile as to what you do know or do not know.

Your stuff you regurgitate here will never be seen by me ever as you going to a place where sun or moon will not shine.

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## CSAW

DF41 said:


> I gotten enough of the puerile stuff you can churn out.
> 
> You graduated from one of this kind of school in India?
> 
> With other Indians now in India submarine force?



I think Mr *@Tejaswithuttam* has some serious issues and need help. His only interaction with Computers or I.T at school were limited to 'copy & paste functions'.
He could not answer any of the relevant points & was badly exposed. Just Plain Chest thumping without any facts or Data or maturity. I thought Learning , Education, Know How was still faring better on the other side of our eastern border but i was wrong.

Just one example - He comments on J-15 as an expert stating it has no AESA Radar.

To avoid proper answers - He Consistently Switches from one argument to another & Drags UK, USA, Uttam , Carriers , J-15, Rafale , SAM , S-400 , Mars , God knows What else. I wonder if Imodium would not treat the verbal dysentery issue of this magnitude.

Hence Ignoring him is a far better option.

和傻瓜争论会把你拉到他的水平。

Other wise he will paste 2000+++++ more articles / pictures without knowing anything about the subject.

祝好運。

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## Sine Nomine

Tejaswithuttam said:


> Pakis obsession to maintain parity with us was expected after we developed uttam aesa radar ,we should take your claim at face value rather then arguing about authenticity which can't be independently verified infact your obsession help you guys to keep begging, your haste purchase of chink HALE drones ,SAMS & j-10 after rafale & s400 deal lays bare your insecurities ,if we achieve our stated aims like that of 42sqd ,3k 155mm howitzers or 200 odd ships you really can't play numbers game hence the nuclear tactical ballistic missiles NASR & threats to launch them as a first use weapon but with upcoming ERADS ,BMD phase 2 & s400 such threats would look even hollow on paper ,our main aim should be to take out your delivery mechanisms as well as warheads after that even in a war of attrition & your famed strategic depth we would finish you guys easily.
> Pakis industrial, educational and R&D base is primitive but still inbreds can directly develop GaN radar, towed array, project hazam, lauda lassan etc..
> 
> I guess these all things will be pindigenous just like your missiles. Don’t know why do these Pakroaches think that whatever India can do Pakshitstanis can also replicate the same, these coomerfags don’t even have expertise in building basic motorcycle engines let alone advanced avionics, and the dream of building advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array radars that will require compound semiconductor (Gallium Arsenide or Gallium Nitride) fabrication plants is nothing more than a joke.
> 
> Your avionics R&D is so primitive that Porkis have to do Joint Ventures which CAC China (openly accepted on PAC Kamra website and I’ve mentioned it before) for local assembly of avionics used in JF-17 Blunder. We know the industrial capabilities of this pre-industrial shithole when it comes to manufacturing of engineering goods.
> 
> Now please don’t tell me that Fuckistan is going to build an advanced air-to-air BVRAAM without importing semi-knocked down kits from China. Porkis should better start finding excuses to tell their jahil awaam that they are and will remain backward bcz within a decade gap will become so large that no monkey balancing will work.


Calm down lil pajeet your hole is already frothing,you may get a heart attack.
Randia is going to be next mega,galactic,hyper power we are doomed,whole world is doomed.


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## Sine Nomine

Tejaswithuttam said:


> The reality, however, is that China’s submarines just cannot remain silent, and reveal themselves to the enemy as a slave to their habit. What this incident, of Chinese submarines being caught right in the middle of the act has done is turn the tables on the CCP. For far too long, the totalitarian Chinese regime has been having its way in the South China Sea and the East China Sea. Now, the free world order is exposing China for what it is, and in the process, emboldening countries in the region to stand up to Beijing.
> What is happening, therefore, is that China is being surrounded in its very own backyard by powerful nations, who are no longer willing to give Beijing a pass for any of its misadventures.


China military tech is sub par,china is no match for India,but than again we have seen badly beaten,abused and bruised Bahadur Bharatiya Senaks begging for mercy infront of these Chinks,tell us should we believe pictures or verbal diarrhea coming out of your hole.



Tejaswithuttam said:


> You guys are already doomed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imran Khan praises India as 'khuddar quam', says no superpower dictate terms
> 
> 
> Imran Khan government suffered a setback on Thursday as Pakistan Supreme Court set aside the ruling of the Deputy Speaker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


Don't worry about it,worry about your own country,which looks in better shape but isn't is.

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## siegecrossbow

@waz moderation is gonna let some idiot spout shit like “chunks” and “fukistan” without any repercussions?

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## Sine Nomine

Tejaswithuttam said:


> The Yuan class submarine is actually very legitimate. It may not be on the tier of Japan’s diesel-electrics, but it’s still in the top 10% of diesel-electrics in the world.
> Yes, China now heavily is ahead of Russian in diesel-electric (despite Russia being the country back in the 60’s that helped China originally with the program).
> 
> So to summarise, out of China’s 79 active submarines, it has 18 of the Yuan class.
> So 18 of China’s submarine are in fact not a joke, and they are difficult to detect and track. However all of China’s nuclear submarines are easy to detect, and China’s older diesel-electrics are also possible to detect.
> But the Yuan class if submerged, it’s likely not possible to detect (which even the USA itself admit this).


You should really look into amount of USD,manpower and infra PRC is putting into all kind of mil related R&D.


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## Oruc

And I thought some useful discussion might be going on here.


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## Abid123

Tejaswithuttam said:


> Pakis obsession to maintain parity with us was expected after we developed uttam aesa radar ,we should take your claim at face value rather then arguing about authenticity which can't be independently verified infact your obsession help you guys to keep begging, your haste purchase of chink HALE drones ,SAMS & j-10 after rafale & s400 deal lays bare your insecurities ,if we achieve our stated aims like that of 42sqd ,3k 155mm howitzers or 200 odd ships you really can't play numbers game hence the nuclear tactical ballistic missiles NASR & threats to launch them as a first use weapon but with upcoming ERADS ,BMD phase 2 & s400 such threats would look even hollow on paper ,our main aim should be to take out your delivery mechanisms as well as warheads after that even in a war of attrition & your famed strategic depth we would finish you guys easily.
> Pakis industrial, educational and R&D base is primitive but still inbreds can directly develop GaN radar, towed array, project hazam, lauda lassan etc..
> 
> I guess these all things will be pindigenous just like your missiles. Don’t know why do these Pakroaches think that whatever India can do Pakshitstanis can also replicate the same, these coomerfags don’t even have expertise in building basic motorcycle engines let alone advanced avionics, and the dream of building advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array radars that will require compound semiconductor (Gallium Arsenide or Gallium Nitride) fabrication plants is nothing more than a joke.
> 
> Your avionics R&D is so primitive that Porkis have to do Joint Ventures which CAC China (openly accepted on PAC Kamra website and I’ve mentioned it before) for local assembly of avionics used in JF-17 Blunder. We know the industrial capabilities of this pre-industrial shithole when it comes to manufacturing of engineering goods.
> 
> Now please don’t tell me that Fuckistan is going to build an advanced air-to-air BVRAAM without importing semi-knocked down kits from China. Porkis should better start finding excuses to tell their jahil awaam that they are and will remain backward bcz within a decade gap will become so large that no monkey balancing will work.











China controls 1,000 sq. km of area in Ladakh


The official revealed that in Depsang Plains, from patrolling point 10-13, the scale of Chinese control of India’s perception of the LAC stood at about 900 sq.km.




www.thehindu.com

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## Waterboy

Yasser76 said:


> Looks like it was not just us the Germans screwed over, Thai is backing out of the deal for the same Subs. Unsure how far the line we are with the manufacturing of our subs, but if China cannot physically deliver them due to an embargo on China itself, looks like we may well be able to just buy German subs instead.
> 
> Choices for conventional powered subs are limited outside of China.
> 
> Sweden
> France
> Spain
> South Korea
> Turkey
> Germany
> 
> All of the above are suseptible to US pressure or will require German engines too, we may well be very screwed here chaps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decision on submarine deal only after talks, says Navy chief
> 
> 
> The Royal Thai Navy is expected to make a decision on the Chinese submarine deal by the end of this month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationthailand.com


Larai karo US say bhai, EU ki maro and then buy sub standard Chinese equipment.


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## DF41

Sine Nomine said:


> You should really look into amount of USD,manpower and infra PRC is putting into all kind of mil related R&D.



In addition to what you say, there is also a very special man. 

Rear Admiral Ma Weiming








The top engineer working to make China’s naval dreams reality


The top engineer with the key to China’s dream of having the world’s most powerful navy




www.scmp.com






The top engineer with the key to China’s dream of having the world’s most powerful navy​Almost every research topic Rear Admiral Ma Weiming has studied in recent years has resulted in actual equipment on Chinese warships, his colleague says​






Rear Admiral Ma Weiming, one of China’s top naval engineers, has been nominated for the PLA’s highest military award. Photo: Handout
Top naval engineer Ma Weiming, who has led work on a hi-tech launch system for future Chinese aircraft carriers and a quieter propulsion system for China’s nuclear submarines, has been nominated for the People’s Liberation Army’s top military award.
Dubbed the father of China’s electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS), Rear Admiral Ma describes himself as a “teacher without any dreams”.
He is one of 17 nominees for 10 Order of August 1 awards to be presented by President Xi Jinping on August 1, the 90th anniversary of the founding of the Red Army, the PLA’s precursor.

To the big shock of USA, China next carrier will be using EMALS, very likely designed better and constructed and installed better than what USA can hope to have in USS Gerald Ford with lots of problems in EMALS and their AAG.

There is yet another major innovation crafted by Admiral Ma Weiming of direct interest to this thread.

He is the creator of 
electric rim-driven shaftless ultraquiet submarine propulsion​








China all electric rim-driven shaftless ultraquiet submarine propulsion | NextBigFuture.com


China claims an all electric rim-driven pump-jet had been fitted to the People's Liberation Army Navy's newest nuclear submarines.




www.nextbigfuture.com






_China all electric rim-driven shaftless ultraquiet submarine propulsion_​_July 7, 2017 by Brian Wang
China claims an all electric rim-driven pump-jet had been fitted to the People’s Liberation Army Navy’s newest nuclear submarines.
China is talking about putting the new ultra quiet propulsion system on new nuclear-powered type 095 attack submarines and Type 096 ballistic missile submarines._


A rim-driven pump-jet has a ring-shaped electrical machine inside the pump-jet shroud, which turns the vane rotor inside the pump-jet cavity to create thrust. The design reduces noise by removing the shaft and also creating smaller water bubbles , Making it even quieter.


Modern American and British submarines already use pump-jet propulsion, but Koh said the technology had not been adopted more widely because its design was complex, and just a few countries could support the technology with “a good deal of funding and technical expertise”.

_Beijing-based naval expert Li Jie said China had put a lot of resources and people into development cutting-edge technologies, including the pump-jet, air-independent propulsion (AIP) for non-nuclear submarines and other measures as part of its efforts To make Chinese submarines stealthier.

“Both the ultra-quiet engine and AIP will help Chinese subs to elude foes as high concealment is very important to all nuclear attack subs,” Li said. “Quieter subs expressing enhanced stealth capability, which will help them to encounter surprise attacks when necessary ”

China has built Asia’s largest submarine base at Yulin, on the south coast of Hainan, near Sanya. The base features underground submarine facilities with tunnel access, shielding Chinese submarines that enter the South China Sea from the prying eyes of US reconnaissance satellites. That American warships and aircraft to conduct more close surveillance operations in the disputed waters, which are conven wholly or in part by mainland China, Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan.

The Chinese navy is likely to begin construction of the Type 096 submarines, which will armed with 24 JL-3 intercontinental submarine-launched ballistic missiles, in the early 2020s, according to the Pentagon’s annual report to the US Congress this year.

Rear Admiral Ma Weiming, 57, became a household name in China in 2011 when he published during a speech to accept a national technology award that his team had successfully developed a Chinese electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS).

The chinese electromagnetic aircraft launch system has not been installed on any aircraft carrier. Ma claims his EMALS is more advanced than the US system.

Ma’s EMALS might be fitted on China’s third-generation nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, the Type 003.

The US Navy uses pump-jet propulsor technology on its Improved Los Angeles, Seawolf and Virginia-class attack submarines. The U.S. Navy is also planning to use a pumpjet propulsor onboard its forthcoming Columbia-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines. The Columbia-class will use integrated electrical propulsion with a permanent-magnet motor turning the submarine’s drive shaft.

Developing a shaftless propulsion system is something akin to the holy grail of submarine propulsion. U.S. naval experts are skeptical of the Chinese claims.

If the China has successfully develop a rim-driven pumpjet propulsor that works in a real world operational setting, it would be a significant development. It would mean that the PLAN is making genuine progress in developing novel submarine technologies and is starting to catch up. However, US experts still feel that their overall submarine systems are quieter and more advanced._
Nextbigfuture had covered the electric drive for submarines about one month ago.

AND OF COURSE, WE ALL KNOW NOW WHAT WAS NOT KNOWN IN 2017. 
THAT CHINA LATEST CARRIER EQUIPPED WITH 3 EMALS.










China's Submarines May Be The Stealthiest On Earth: Can America Catch Up?


Admiral Ma crowed that Chinese engineers are “now way ahead of the United States, which has also been developing similar technology.”




nationalinterest.org





_
*Admiral Ma crowed that Chinese engineers are “now way ahead of the United States, which has also been developing similar technology.”*
by James Holmes
*Here's What You Need To Remember: *Does new engineering technology herald an age of Chinese maritime supremacy? Of course not. Carl von Clausewitz portrays martial strife as constant struggle between “wrestlers” striving to “throw” each other for strategic gain. That goes for acoustic one-upmanship as well.
Word has it that China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLA Navy) has staged a breakthrough in submarine propulsion. At any rate, that’s the word from marine engineer Rear Admiral Ma Weiming, a specialist in electromagnetic systems. Admiral Ma recently reported on state-run CCTV that shipwrights are installing shaftless rim-driven pumpjets in China’s “next-generation nuclear submarines,” meaning attack or ballistic-missile boats. (Click here for a layman’s description of pumpjet technology.) Ma crowed that Chinese engineers are “now way ahead of the United States, which has also been developing similar technology.”
If Admiral Ma is playing it straight—rather than hyping promising but yet-to-be-proven gadgetry—then the PLA Navy is poised to overcome a technological and tactical defect that has plagued it since its founding. American submariners long lampooned Soviet and Chinese nuclear boats for being noisy and easy to detect. PLA Navy boats remained backward long after the Cold War. Ultraquiet propulsion, though, would put an end to unquestioned U.S. acoustic supremacy, opening up new operational and strategic vistas before the PLA Navy while ushering in a deadlier phase of U.S.-China strategic competition.
The rim-driven pumpjet is an electrically driven “propulsor” that simplifies and thus quiets an engineering plant. Older technology typically uses gears to connect the elements of a drive train. Steam spins the innards of high-speed turbines. Turbines spin far too fast for any main propulsion shaft or propeller, however, so ships outfitted with traditional engineering plants have “main reduction gears” that step down the speed of rotation drastically, to speeds useful for the shaft that turns the screw and impels the hull through the water. Gears are noisemakers. Pumpjet technology dispenses with them, simplifying and silencing plant operations.
The design also reduces cavitation—bubbles churned up when a propeller turns rapidly underwater, leaving low-pressure zones behind the blades where water can boil. Cavitation emits noise that enemy sonar operators may hear. Thus it can alert hostile anti-submarine-warfare (ASW) forces, helping them find, track and target the emitter. Hence the allure of novel technology that suppresses cavitation.
Now, there are ample grounds for skepticism toward Admiral Ma’s claims. New technology remains a hypothesis until tested out in real-world operations. But at the same time it’s doubtful Ma was simply showboating for Chinese TV viewers. Rising competitors have caught up with established navies before, or even leapfrogged them in certain areas. The Imperial Japanese Navy defied expectations, devising the Long Lance torpedo that it deployed to devastating effect at Pearl Harbor. The Soviet Navy concocted antiship missiles and torpedoes that give the U.S. Navy fits to this day. Thus it behooves us to ask what if: what if China pulls off a technological leap of similar magnitude?
Set aside the question of whose submarines are quieter than whose. Boastfulness—the urge to be the biggest, best and most of everything, and to have others acknowledge it—forms a strand in China’s cultural DNA. Ma is indulging in it. But no one is going to hold a contest to measure noise given off by U.S. Navy and PLA Navy boats, and award victory to the quietest fleet. Combat is the true arbiter of military effectiveness—and undersea combat hinges on whether “hiders” or “finders” prevail. It pits a sub’s capacity for silent running against the acuity of ASW sensors and operators trying to ferret it out.
In other words, if American hiders remain quiet enough to evade Chinese finders, they hold the advantage of stealth. If acoustics has befriended the PLA Navy, then American finders have a problem. And if both submarine services can elude ASW hunters, then both they and surface fleets are in dire peril. “Peer” submarines could engage one another at close proximity in the deep, or strike against surface vessels without warning. Indeed, the surface of embattled oceans could verge on no-go territory. That prospect makes this thought experiment about the future of subsurface warfare worthwhile.
Suppose rim-driven pumpjet propulsors do pan out for China’s navy. How might commanders use newly elusive boats? First of all, they might afford nuclear-powered ballistic-missile submarines (SSBNs, known to U.S. submariners as “boomers”) precedence when installing newfangled propulsion hardware. The PLA Navy already operates a sizable fleet of diesel-electric attack subs that satisfices for antiaccess/area-denial purposes. They can make shift until silent-running nuclear-powered attack subs (SSNs) join the fleet. SSNs can wait. By contrast, the navy stands at the brink of fielding its first effective SSBNs.
Fabricating a new capability would seem to take precedence over improving an old but adequate one—especially if the nation’s nuclear deterrent depends on the new capability. If this logic prevails, how will the PLA Navy employ working boomers? To all appearances, it envisions employing the South China Sea as an offshore “bastion” for SSBNs, much as the Soviet Navy of yesteryear made semienclosed waters into protected bastions for its missile boats. Undersea deterrence, then, probably numbers among the motives impelling the PLA to transform rocks and atolls into fortified outposts, acquaint itself with underwater hydrography, and so forth. China’s Type 094 SSBNs or their pumpjet-equipped descendants could slip out of the sub base on Hainan Island, descend into South China Sea waters, lose themselves in the depths and dare rival navies to come into China’s “near seas”—expanses that fall under the shadow of land-based PLA missiles and aircraft—to hunt them.
Or if Chinese Communist Party leaders feel comfortable granting SSBN skippers the liberty to venture outside the near seas (though that’s a lot of atomic firepower to entrust to a naval officer whose loyalties might prove suspect), the Luzon Strait affords a convenient entryway to the western Pacific. Within the strait lies the Bashi Channel, a deep underwater thoroughfare into the Pacific. The weather between Luzon and the southern tip of Taiwan often works against airborne ASW; subs transiting the channel can conceal their whereabouts by diving beneath thermal layers that play tricks with sound. An ultraquiet SSBN, in short, could thrive in South China Sea patrol grounds—and beyond.
Second, PLA Navy commanders doubtless salivate at the prospect of ultraquiet attack boats. They could merge new SSNs—presumably the Type 095s under development—into their antiaccess defenses against the U.S. Pacific Fleet. They could package new with old units inventively. For example, they could station a picket line of diesel boats and older Type 093 SSNs along likely axes of approach from Hawaii or U.S. West Coast seaports. Speedy but quiet Type 095s could act as “skirmishers,” operating forward of the pickets. SSNs could snipe at the Pacific Fleet’s flanks during its westward voyage while scouting for the rest of the fleet, and for shore-based PLA defenders. They could mount piecemeal attacks against the American fleet, or even try to herd it toward the picket line for additional punishment.
PLA commanders thus could use ultramodern platforms to wring new value out of legacy platforms. Such an approach would harness the latest technology while staying true to China’s Maoist tradition of “active defense.” Active defense—which, as Chinese military folk remind us, remains the “essence” of Chinese military strategy decades after Mao Zedong’s demise—envisions luring foes deep into Chinese-held territory. PLA defenders stage tactical actions to weary enemies as they come. They fall on isolated units and try to smash them. Successive small-scale attacks enfeeble enemy forces, setting the stage for decisive battle on Chinese ground.
Think about the options that may become available to Chinese skippers as propulsor technology matures. Diesel boats could act as western Pacific pickets, or congregate in wolfpacks to concentrate firepower from multiple axes. Relatively noisy Type 093s could act as decoys, distracting American ASW hunters while Type 095s spring ambushes at opportune moments. And on and on. Commanders could combine and recombine forces in limitless ways—in keeping with China’s way of war.
Call it undersea active defense.
Third, the advent of quiet-running SSNs would let the PLA Navy play submarine-on-submarine games reminiscent of those once played by U.S. and Soviet boats. To date, lacking a peer to U.S. Navy Los Angeles– or Virginia-class SSNs, the PLA Navy has employed its submarine fleet mainly as an antisurface force. It waits offshore for hostile forces to approach, then does its best to pummel them with missiles or torpedoes. American submariners, by contrast, will tell you the best ASW weapon is another submarine. They view hunting subs as their chief contribution to high-seas warfare. Chinese submariners might follow suit if their boats ran quiet enough, and boasted sensors sensitive enough, to make sub-on-sub ASW an option. Or they might incorporate ASW into their operational portfolio while retaining the emphasis on antiship missions.
Either way, PLA submarine operations would take on an intensely offensive hue. No longer would the sub force be a mostly static force lofting antiship missiles toward adversary surface task forces. It would seek out adversary subs as well—and, if successful, project China’s antiaccess defenses into the depths in a serious way for the first time. No longer could the United States’ silent service prowl Asian waters with impunity. Indeed, if both fleets were comparable in stealth, cat-and-mouse games might predominate. This would be a dangerous business. Reaction times would be minimal if boats could only detect and track one another at intimate range. Proximity would magnify the prospect of collisions, accidents of other types, or even inadvertent exchanges of fire. Both navies and their political masters must think ahead about how to manage close-quarters encounters in the deep._











Is China taking the lead in submarine propulsion?


Recently there has been some speculation in the media regarding China adopting Rim-Driven Propulsion on its new Type 095 nuclear attack submarine.




www.globecomposite.com





Is China taking the lead in submarine propulsion?​By Globe Composite



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A new type of technology might currently be in development by China, that could lower the acoustic signature of submarines. In a traditional submarine, a propeller is attached to a driveshaft which is turned by a large engine or hydraulic system. These types of systems rely on a great deal of machinery and moving parts, both create lots of noise in an environment where stealth rules supreme. 
In the "Silent Service", making as little noise as possible to evade detection is always the goal. To that end, a new concept in propulsion called a “Rim-Driven Propeller” or RDP (also known as a Rim-Driven Thruster or Rim-Driven Pumpjet) is being considered. An RDP removes the hub, driveshaft and gearbox from a submarine’s typical propulsion system, thereby giving the sub even greater stealth.

Think of an RPD as a propeller but with the blades attached to the outside surface of a cylinder, instead of attaching to a center hub like a traditional prop. The cylinder ring rotor is surrounded by stators, which creates rotation via electro-magnetic forces. Using RDP technology on a sub has the potential to significantly lower noise emissions, as well as free-up valuable space on the vessel to allow it to conduct other missions as well.
While currently no submarines are reported to use RDP systems, recently there has been some speculation in the media regarding China adopting a Rim-Driven Thruster on its new Type 095 nuclear attack submarine (Chinese designation: 09-V Chu-class). Most of this speculation seems to be based on an interview with Rear Admiral Ma Weiming, from China’s Navy (PLA Navy) on state-run CCTV.
Based on their interpretation of what was said in the interview, Popular Science wrote “These new submarine propulsion systems may not just power China's submarines of the future, but give Beijing a true superpower's underwater armada”.
The South China Morning Post went even further and proposed that “China is now on the cusp of taking the lead in a cutting-edge propulsion technology”.
Despite these claims, no hard evidence exists confirming whether China is near this level of submarine technology. It also seems doubtful that, even if it was true, the official Chinese state media would so openly report on the progress of their secretive nuclear submarine program. Perhaps it is a ploy by the Chinese to counter their reputation of having “noisy” submarines. To that point, a Chinese Shang-class sub was detected by the Japanese Navy earlier this year, patrolling around Japan’s Senkaku islands.
The history of submarine warfare is an ongoing game of cat and mouse, where the hunter can become the hunted as soon as a slight advantage is gained by the other party. Although it is widely believed that the Chinese are at least twenty years behind the U.S. Navy in submarine technology, it always is wise to remain vigilant and alert.

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## nomi007

Although type-214 submarine is costly but there is no doubt that western technology is far head than Chinese and Russian. Are both Type-39 and Type-214 is using same engine?


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## Scorpiooo

Tipu7 said:


> Of course Chinese option is there,
> 
> BUT,
> 
> that option is definitely not the best one.
> 
> Chinese subs modernized with state of art Western tech were supposed to give Pakistan's underwater arm a balanced capability between quality and quantity.


Is any other option from west is possible?

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## Super Falcon

These subs will carry 12 naval version cruise Missile's each


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## Abid123

Super Falcon said:


> These subs will carry 12 naval version cruise Missile's each


Pakistan needs hypersonic anti ship cruise missiles for Submarines.


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## Super Falcon

Abid123 said:


> Pakistan needs hypersonic anti ship cruise missiles for Submarines.


Cruise Missile's have limited range and damage we need to get bigger punch


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## sparten

So, do we have a completion date for the rest subs without engines?


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## FuturePAF

While Pakistan is looking into a solution for the Hangor’s engine, I hope it looks at the developments being made around the use of lithium batteries and the future of PLAN SSKs.

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## etylo

nomi007 said:


> Although type-214 submarine is costly but there is no doubt that western technology is far head than Chinese and Russian. Are both Type-39 and Type-214 is using same engine?


Then, get them from the west.


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## [--Leo--]

are we getting the sub's or not?


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## SQ8

[--Leo--] said:


> are we getting the sub's or not?


If you want diving bubbles with no engines … sure

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## NooriNuth

So Hangor class subs are getting Swedish Sterling AIP as per this plaque from IDEAS 2022.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592576667477635073
This is arguably the world's quietest.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

NooriNuth said:


> So Hangor class subs are getting Swedish Sterling AIP as per this plaque from IDEAS 2022.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592576667477635073
> This is arguably the world's quietest.


Sterling is a type of AIP, but the Swedes aren't the only ones who make it. The Chinese have been marketing their own Sterling AIP for some years. The Hangor will use a Chinese Sterling AIP system.

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## NooriNuth

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Sterling is a type of AIP, but the Swedes aren't the only ones who make it. The Chinese have been marketing their own Sterling AIP for some years. The Hangor will use a Chinese Sterling AIP system.


OK thats settled then.
But chinese are rubbish at flaunting their technology to the world. 
Their mitary tech documentaries on YouTube are all in Chinese which only Chinese understand. 
At least the swedes have posted am English video which explains how sterling aip works.

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## CivilianSupremacy

No update from PN about subs? 
I guess we might have settled for chinese engines by now. 

2023 may see 2 Type 54As, 1 or 2 Baburs and first Hangoor, if all is going according to schedule.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CivilianSupremacy said:


> No update from PN about subs?
> I guess we might have settled for chinese engines by now.
> 
> 2023 may see 2 Type 54As, 1 or 2 Baburs and first Hangoor, if all is going according to schedule.


All said, going all Chinese on these subs was the most optimal and cost effective route. It wasn't realistic to expect the West to help out with a Chinese platform.

OTOH, the PN will pursue an original AIP submarine program in a few years. This will be custom designed and potentially leverage Western engines and possibly even AIP.

Interestingly, the PN's main requirements for the SWATS could cover a lot of the key questions regarding inputs. It too will be an original design (likely in collaboration with Turkey) and will probably use Western engines and AIP. Once they get the approvals for that subsystems stack and build domestic capacity to integrate and test it, they'll proceed with a full sized sub project.

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## syed_yusuf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> All said, going all Chinese on these subs was the most optimal and cost effective route. It wasn't realistic to expect the West to help out with a Chinese platform.
> 
> OTOH, the PN will pursue an original AIP submarine program in a few years. This will be custom designed and potentially leverage Western engines and possibly even AIP.
> 
> Interestingly, the PN's main requirements for the SWATS could cover a lot of the key questions regarding inputs. It too will be an original design (likely in collaboration with Turkey) and will probably use Western engines and AIP. Once they get the approvals for that subsystems stack and build domestic capacity to integrate and test it, they'll proceed with a full sized sub project.


What do you mean by original design


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## CivilianSupremacy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> All said, going all Chinese on these subs was the most optimal and cost effective route. It wasn't realistic to expect the West to help out with a Chinese platform.
> 
> OTOH, the PN will pursue an original AIP submarine program in a few years. This will be custom designed and potentially leverage Western engines and possibly even AIP.
> 
> Interestingly, the PN's main requirements for the SWATS could cover a lot of the key questions regarding inputs. It too will be an original design (likely in collaboration with Turkey) and will probably use Western engines and AIP. Once they get the approvals for that subsystems stack and build domestic capacity to integrate and test it, they'll proceed with a full sized sub project.



Right, I think we may see SWATS into reality soon but original sub program looks to be destined for future like in 2040s. Because with 11 AIP enabled subs PN may feel settled down for next 1-2 decades. 
Anyway, in idea on PN future SWATS specs? Could it be from Turkish STM? OR Is it the same as was mentioned in MoDP 2015–2016 for one midget submarine. I find no actual details / images of the one which's funds might have secured back in 2015/16 or perhaps this one is already constructed ? PN's website has 12 years old information and even some wrong images. Your website is one good source for information. Keep up!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CivilianSupremacy said:


> Right, I think we may see SWATS into reality soon but original sub program looks to be destined for future like in 2040s. Because with 11 AIP enabled subs PN may feel settled down for next 1-2 decades.
> Anyway, in idea on PN future SWATS specs? Could it be from Turkish STM? OR Is it the same as was mentioned in MoDP 2015–2016 for one midget submarine. I find no actual details / images of the one which's funds might have secured back in 2015/16 or perhaps this one is already constructed ? PN's website has 12 years old information and even some wrong images. Your website is one good source for information. Keep up!


The requirements were:

~700 tons displacement
AIP
ASW
SDV-capability
ESM w/ELINT + SIGINT
CMS, Optronics, etc.
Yes, the original submarine probably wouldn't materialize until around the 2040s (to replace the Agosta 90Bs). However, the PN would probably start working on it around the mid-2020s. I'm expecting a program similar to the Jinnah-class frigate where the PN would work with a partner (potentially the Turks) on the design phase, but rely on COTS for all of the major inputs, like electronics, engine, AIP, etc.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1600800921147301889

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## ghazi52

.,..,






.

The Steel Cutting Ceremony of the 5th Submarine, PNS/M TASNIM, will be held in Dec, 21 at KS&EW. The submarine is named after Vice Admiral (R) Ahmad Tasnim, the daring Commanding Officer of submarine PNS HANGOR (S-131) that sank one Indian warship and crippled another in 1971.

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## Cool_Soldier

I think, It supposed to say "Ceremony will held on 21 Dec 2022."

When will four subs will be inducted as we haven't seen launching of first Sub yet.

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## War Historian

ghazi52 said:


> .,..,
> View attachment 904270
> 
> 
> .
> 
> The Steel Cutting Ceremony of the 5th Submarine, PNS/M TASNIM, was held in Dec, 21 at KS&EW. The submarine is named after Vice Admiral (R) Ahmad Tasnim, the daring Commanding Officer of submarine PNS HANGOR (S-131) that sank one Indian warship and crippled another in 1971.
> 
> 
> View attachment 904272


Sir what about the engines,chinese or german?


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## ghazi52

War Historian said:


> Sir what about the engines,chinese or german?


 All Chinese.


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## War Historian

ghazi52 said:


> All Chinese.


Sir would they perform like german engines, which were the part of the deal earlier, would chinese decrease the price? because original price tag was high just because of German MTU engines. Thanks


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## FuturePAF

Will the Hangor Subs be fitted with diffusers? Seems to be becoming a regular feature of more and more SSKs.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1601331238220234752

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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1600800921147301889



Interesting - i was not aware that they had resolved the engine issues( ie lack of german engines ! )..


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## Defencelover1997

FuturePAF said:


> Will the Hangor Subs be fitted with diffusers? Seems to be becoming a regular feature of more and more SSKs.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1601331238220234752


what's the benefit with the deffuser?


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## FuturePAF

Defencelover1997 said:


> what's the benefit with the deffuser?


The signature is reduced; the sub is quieter








German Type 212 Sub Has This 'Propeller Boss Vortex Diffuser' To Reduce Its Acoustic Signature


Not much is known about the system, but it's based on similar principals as finned systems commercial ships use to increase efficiency.




www.thedrive.com

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## MastanKhan

Defencelover1997 said:


> what's the benefit with the deffuser?


Hi,

I believe that we had something similar done to our subs---to make them quiter---. The australians did it for us---.

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## ali_raza

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I believe that we had something similar done to our subs---to make them quiter---. The australians did it for us---.


what about engine


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## ali_raza

any updates


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## Bratva

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1606574481362849797

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Bratva said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1606574481362849797
> View attachment 907536


The Hangor Class are upgraded, Pakistan-specific variants of the Type 039B (Yuan-class) air-independent propulsion-equipped attack submarines. The 3,600-tonne, 78 meter long submarines will have a test depth of 550 meters and a complement of 40 sailors, and a range of almost 15,000 kilometers. Armed with 6 torpedo/missile tubes, the submarine is both an attack submarine with state-of-the-art ASW capabilities as well as an Anti-Ship Cruise Missile (AShCM) platform. The primary weapon for the Yu-6 heavyweight torpedo, which has a speed of 65 knots and a range of 45 kilometres. The submarine can also fire the Yu-9 next generation torpedo. The torpedoes are likely to include both the Yu-6 thermal powered torpedoes and the electric-powered type (designation unknown). Both weapons are wire guided dual-purpose (anti-ship, anti-submarine) weapons and are relatively modern. The submarine can also fire the YJ-18B supersonic ASCM/LACM with a range of 540 kilometres, as well as the YJ-82 subsonic anti-ship cruise missile.The Pakistani Hangor-Class will also be armed with the nuclear-capable Babur-III submarine-launched cruise missile. The Type 039B’s torpedo and missile launching system can also fire the YJ-8X (C-80X) series anti-ship missiles and the CY-1 anti-submarine warfare (ASW) missile.


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## ghazi52

,..,,
Keel laying of Hangor class submarine held at Karachi Shipyard​Admiral Niazi says it is a matter of great pride to witness keel laying, steel cutting of two submarines concurrently

December 24, 2022






Photo: Pakistan Navy
*

KARACHI: *The keel laying ceremony of the first Hangor-class submarine and the steel cutting of the second submarine were held at Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KS&EW) on Saturday, said the Pakistan Navy.

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Amjad Khan Niazi graced the occasion as chief guest.

According to a press release, the defence agreement between Pakistan and China included the development of eight Hangor-class submarines including four under construction at Wuchang Shipbuilding Industry Group (WSIG) in China and the remaining four being built at KS&EW under the Transfer of Technology (ToT) agreement.

The construction work of the first submarine to be made at KS&EW Pakistan commenced on December 21 and now the keel laying is being laid which is a major milestone in the history of any naval vessel being constructed, added the press statement.

Concurrently, construction work on a subsequent submarine has started with its steel cutting at the same shipyard.
The submarine is capable of undertaking a variety of missions as per operational dictates.

On the occasion, Admiral Niazi said that it is a matter of great pride to witness the keel laying and steel cutting of two submarines concurrently.

He added that Pakistan Navy is aware of the evolving geo-strategic situation in the region and will continue to develop naval potential, improve shipbuilding infrastructure and equip platforms with advanced weapons, and sensors to counter traditional as well as asymmetric threats.

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## ghazi52

,.,.
*Director General Public Relations - Nav*y​ 
The indigenous submarine development project at Pakistan achieved another mega milestone, wherein, the Keel Laying Ceremony of first HANGOR Class Submarine and Steel Cutting of second Submarine held at Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KS&EW). Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Amjad Khan Niazi graced the occasion as Chief Guest.

The defence agreement between Pakistan and China included development of 08 x HANGOR Class Submarines including 04 under constructions at Wuchang Shipbuilding Industry Group (WSIG) in China and remaining 04 being built at KS&EW under Transfer of Technology (T o T) agreement. The construction work of first submarine to be made at KS&EW Pakistan commenced in Dec 21 and now the Keel Laying is being laid which is a major milestone in history of any naval vessel being constructed. Concurrently, construction work on subsequent submarine has started with its Steel Cutting at the same shipyard.

HANGOR Class Submarine is capable to undertake variety of missions as per operational dictates. The submarine possesses advanced stealth features and fitted with State-of-the-Art weapons and sensors to operate under multi-threat environment and can engage targets at stand-off ranges.

On the occasion, the honorable Chief Guest expressed that it is a matter of great pride to witness the Keel Laying and Steel Cutting of two submarines concurrently. He added that Pakistan Navy is aware of the evolving Geo-strategic situation in our region and will continue to develop naval potential, improve shipbuilding infrastructure and equip platforms with advanced weapons/ sensors to counter traditional as well as asymmetric threats. The Admiral showed confidence that these submarines will play leading role in catering the operational needs of Pakistan Navy.

Earlier the distinguished Rep of M/s China Shipbuilding Offshore Company (CSOC) expressed his gratitude for the ceremony. He added that his company will ensure seamless provision of all resources/ support for smooth construction of submarines in Pakistan. He further said that Pak-China friendship is deep rooted and share common objectives.

The ceremony was attended by representatives of M/s CSOC (China) and other high ranking officials including distinguished guests from Embassy of China, Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP), Pakistan Navy (PN) and KS&EW.

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