# France starts ban on full-face veil



## SpArK

*France starts ban on full-face veil
​*




​PARIS | Mon Apr 11, 2011
(Reuters) - France's ban on full face veils, a first in Europe, went into force on Monday, and anyone wearing the Muslim niqab or burqa in public could now face a fine of 150 euros ($216), or lessons in French citizenship.

The center-right government, which passed the law in October, has rolled out a public relations campaign to explain the ban and the rules of its application that includes posters, pamphlets and a government-hosted web site.

Guidelines spelled out in the pamphlet forbid police from asking women to remove their burqa or full-face veil in the street. They will instead be escorted to a police station and asked to remove the veil there for identification.

Widely criticized by Muslims abroad as impinging on their religious freedom, the law has provoked a limited backlash in France where a strict separation of church and state is seen as central to maintaining a peaceful civil society.

A Muslim property dealer is urging women to engage in "civil disobedience" by continuing to wear the veil if they so desire and has called on supporters to hold a silent prayer in protest of the ban in front of the Notre Dame Cathedral.

Rachid Nekkaz, the property dealer, said in a webcast he would help pay fines and was putting a property worth around two million euros up for sale to fund his campaign.

"The street is the universal home of freedom and nobody should challenge that so long as these woman are not impinging on anyone else's freedom," he said. "I am calling on all free women who so wish to wear the veil in the street and engage in civil disobedience," he said.

In the southern city of Avignon, Reuters TV filmed a woman boarding a train wearing a burqa, unchallenged by police.

"It's not an act of provocation," said Kenza Drider, wearing a full-face veil on the train. "I'm only carrying out my citizens' rights, I'm not committing a crime ... If they (police) ask me for identity papers I'll show them, no problem."

France's five-million-strong Muslim minority is Western Europe's largest, but fewer than 2,000 women are believed actually to wear a full face veil.

Many Muslim leaders have said they support neither the veil nor the law banning it.

On Saturday, French police arrested around 60 people who turned up for a banned protest over the veil ban which had been called by a Muslim group in Britain. One of the protestors was arrested on his arrival from Britain, a police spokesman said.

The timing is all the more sensitive after France's ruling UMP party called a debate on the role of Islam in French society, a forum that some criticized as unfairly singling out a portion of the population as problematic.

The guide sent out last week to police notes that the burqa ban does not apply inside private cars, but it reminds officers that such cases can be dealt with under road safety rules.

(Writing by Brian Love and Nick Vinocur; Editing by Jon Hemming)

France starts ban on full-face veil | Reuters

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## Bhairava

Good move

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## tallboy123

freedom to muslim women..thumbs up france

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## khurasaan1

They will get twoooo. thumbs down....Insha-Allah...


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## iPakMan

Why does everything bad have to end with "Inshallah"? And what if Allah doesn`t will it, then what?
Good for the french.

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## Nair saab

Two women wearing Islamic face veils or niqabs were detained by police in Paris on Monday on the first day of a ban on Muslim garments that cover the face.

The two women were part of a group of a dozen people protesting the ban  the first of its kind in a Western country  in front of NotreDame cathedral.

A police spokesman told DPA that three people had been detained over the protest because they were taking part in an undeclared demonstration and not because two of the women were wearing the niqab.

They had been brought to a police station for an identity check, the spokesman said. He could not confirm whether they had been fined.

The demonstration was organized by an organization called Dont Touch My Constitution, which has led opposition to the law that was passed last October but only came into effect on Monday.

Under the law a woman wearing a burqa (a garment that covers the body from head to toe) or a niqab (a veil that covers the face with just a slit for the eyes) can be fined 150 euros or forced to take classes on citizenship.

Around 2,000 women are estimated to be affected by the ban, which includes public parks, restaurants, cinemas and beaches but does not include private homes, places of worship or cars.

Within hours of the ban a woman wearing a niqab boarded a train to Paris from the southern city of Avignon.

Kenza Drider, 32, told reporters she considered the law a violation of her rights as a citizen of France and a European but that if she was cited by police.

I am committing no crime, said Ms. Drider, who was on her way to Paris for a television interview. There were no reports of her being stopped by police.

Proponents of the ban say it aims to protect women from Islamic fundamentalism and improve public security.

The laws detractors argue it will make imprison burqa or niqab wearers in their homes.

Police have been ordered to apply the law with as much tact as possible, and to try to persuade rather than coerce women to show their face for identity checks.

The Hindu : News / International : Two women detained on first day of French burqa ban

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## Burnz

France became richer by &#8364;300.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

I heard the French MP on TV.

They are insisting on full face being open if the person is in public service.

Veils are not banned.


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## desioptimist

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> I heard the French MP on TV.
> 
> They are insisting on full face being open if the person is in public service.
> 
> Veils are not banned.


 
Yes, it has been discussed many times, ban is on niqab, not hijab.


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## Burnz

I hope India and Pakistan apply this law. Few days back we had a robbery case where women in Burkha stole some precious jewelery and the CCTV only showed burkhas.

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## tallboy123

Whole Europe should follow France's path...

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## Thorough Pro

Burnz said:


> France became richer by 300.


 
Sick. so much for their human rights, liberty and freedom. they are happy with their sisters and daughters going around naked. Proof enough that they not only have no moral values, they don't even have any respect for personal freedom. This is the outcome when the whole society is born out of wedlock. Bastards have no respect for anyone.

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## Burnz

tallboy123 said:


> Whole Europe should follow France's path...


 
Even India should.

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## Burnz

Thorough Pro said:


> Sick. so much for their human rights, liberty and freedom. they are happy with their sisters and daughters going around naked. Proof enough that they not only have no moral values, they don't even have any respect for personal freedom. This is the outcome when the whole society is born out of wedlock. Bastards have no respect for anyone.


 
Are Saudis also bastards?
Women are not allowed to drive.
Non-Muslims cannot even practice their religion.

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## Thorough Pro

Burnz said:


> Are Saudis also bastards?
> Women are not allowed to drive.
> Non-Muslims cannot even practice their religion.


 
but they don't force you to uncover yourself. Driving is a different issue altogether. btw before talking about Saudis take a look inside your own country and culture, where widows are forced against their will to wear only specific dress for the rest of their lives and forced not to wear jewlery, etc. and I am talking about real life not bollywood movies.

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## Thorough Pro

Burnz said:


> I hope India and Pakistan apply this law. Few days back we had a robbery case where women in Burkha stole some precious jewelery and the CCTV only showed burkhas.


 
talk about yourself only. Following french will not make you european, you would still remain the same backward rootless indians.

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## Tigershark

Another unfair legislation restricting women's rights. Why don't the French come out with a LONG BEARD BAN?

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## mehboobkz

Thorough Pro said:


> Driving is a different issue altogether.



So is Burqa in France!


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## mehboobkz

Tigershark said:


> Another unfair legislation restricting women's rights. Why don't the French come out with a LONG BEARD BAN?


 
Another unfair legislation restricting women's rights (not giving them permission to drive). Why don't the Saudis come out with a LONG BEARD BAN?


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## mehboobkz

Thorough Pro said:


> talk about yourself only. Following french will not make you european, you would still remain the same backward rootless indians.


 
Talk about yourself only. Following others will not make you european, you would still remain the same backward rootless Pakistan.


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## mehboobkz

Are muslim women not attracted by a Muslim's hairy chest?

Why not a burqa for Muslim macho men?

Why biased gender discrimination?

Why rely on 7th century Sharia irrelivant codes in this 21st century?

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## chops3d

Burnz said:


> France became richer by &#8364;300.


 
i guess racist attacks in australia are also great , get rid of all

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## Gazzi

Burnz said:


> I hope India and Pakistan apply this law. Few days back we had a robbery case where women in Burkha stole some precious jewelery and the CCTV only showed burkhas.


 
Why bring Pakistan into this...........I just hope a Law gets passed where hindu women must walk arond totally naked with a collar around their necks......would you say this is the right of the State to pass a law......if not why not, any, ANY unjust Law should be condemed when a Nation leadership of bigots wish to target 2000 females in a population of 65 million........makes me wonder whether Muslim countries across the world should implement laws forcing the Western women who can only enter their country must, MUST where veils and even go down the lines of makign it totally unfair and say, no oil will be sold to those countries where their women are not veiled..............FAIR dont you think

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## mehboobkz

chops3d said:


> i guess racist attacks in australia are also great , get rid of all


 
And so does all attacks emanated from Pakistan on Blasphemy law victims!
One of which was highlighted by showering of rose petals by people of Pakistan on a killer.

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## mehboobkz

Gazzi said:


> Why bring Pakistan into this...........I just hope a Law gets passed where hindu women must walk arond totally naked with a collar around their necks......would you say this is the right of the State to pass a law......if not why not, any, ANY unjust Law should be condemed when a Nation leadership of bigots wish to target 2000 females in a population of 65 million........makes me wonder whether Muslim countries across the world should implement laws forcing the Western women who can only enter their country must, MUST where veils and even go down the lines of makign it totally unfair and say, no oil will be sold to those countries where their women are not veiled..............FAIR dont you think


 
Burqa banning is a cultural or religious violation?


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## Jackdaws

Without getting carried away - 

France has always been a secular country - long before rest of Europe caught on - look up the Napoleon code. 

But their definition of secularism is the literal separation of Church and State - unlike the Anglo Saxon one we have in India, USA, UK, Commonwealth etc. This law also applies to Sikhs, Jews etc. What is the fuss?

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## Jackdaws

Gazzi said:


> Why bring Pakistan into this...........I just hope a Law gets passed where hindu women must walk arond totally naked with a collar around their necks......would you say this is the right of the State to pass a law......if not why not, any, ANY unjust Law should be condemed when a Nation leadership of bigots wish to target 2000 females in a population of 65 million........makes me wonder whether Muslim countries across the world should implement laws forcing the Western women who can only enter their country must, MUST where veils and even go down the lines of makign it totally unfair and say, no oil will be sold to those countries where their women are not veiled..............FAIR dont you think



Actually, all women irrespective of their faith have to wear burkha in Saudi Arabia - unless you are American.

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## Thorough Pro

mehboobkz said:


> Are muslim women not attracted by a Muslim's hairy chest?
> 
> Why not a burqa for Muslim macho men?
> 
> Why biased gender discrimination?
> 
> Why rely on 7th century Sharia irrelivant codes in this 21st century?


 
It's not about discrimination, It's what Allah has ruled. Period.

and for your kind information, if you ahve any knowledge about how the two sex behaviours act/react. Man is sight triggered, that's why women are ordered to observe hijab. Women are touch triggered, that's why touching a female is forbidden. Allah knows everything.

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## mehboobkz

The burqa or niqab can effectively mask ones identity. There have been multiple cases reported within Saudi Arabia of men masquerading as women simply by donning a burqa/niqab. I remember one such case showcased on Saudi Arabian television where a man and a burqa/niqabi clad woman were stopped at a checkpoint outside of Riyadh. While I do not know what prompted the couple to be stopped but speculate it was due to a tip off, police found when asking the couple to exit the vehicle that the woman had been hiding bootleg bottles of alcohol under the abaya. Further investigation revealed that the woman was in fact a man.

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## Jackdaws

Thorough Pro said:


> It's not about discrimination, It's what Allah has ruled. Period.
> 
> and for your kind information, if you ahve any knowledge about how the two sex behaviours act/react. Man is sight triggered, that's why women are ordered to observe hijab. Women are touch triggered, that's why touching a female is forbidden. Allah knows everything.


 
Child, how old are you?

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## thebrownguy

I can also complain about Saudi not allowing any non Muslim place of Worship on their land. But whats the point. This argument shall lead us nowhere. 
Anyways i read somewhere, that the Hijaab is a compulsion in Islam, while the burqa is just an arab tradition, which also took roots in the subcontinent.Maybe a Muslim member can throw more light on this.


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## DesiGuy

*when in Rome, do as the Romans! *

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## mehboobkz

Thorough Pro said:


> It's not about discrimination, It's what Allah has ruled. Period.
> 
> and for your kind information, if you ahve any knowledge about how the two sex behaviours act/react. Man is sight triggered, that's why women are ordered to observe hijab. Women are touch triggered, that's why touching a female is forbidden. Allah knows everything.


 
Why do you disregard when I say that Jesus, Guru nanak, Bhuda, Bhagwan knows evrything?
Why no Burqa/Niqab for non Muslims?
Is GOD exclusive for muslims?
Rest of religions are piece of shik?


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## Thorough Pro

mehboobkz said:


> So is Burqa in France!


 
no it is not, it is based on religious discrimination. In saudia if driving is forbidden its forbidden for all and driving has nothing to do with religion, driving is not even a right it's a privilage. But dressing is a very personal thing specially where it is required by a religion. and religion is a basic right.

Don't compare Saudi with French, later claim to be champions of freedom, liberty and right to choose, Saudi is monarchy they do not claim any such thing. At leasr Saudi are not hipocrites.

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## relativiti

The principles on which France is based on should not be allowed to be bent due to some islamic religious immigrants from middle est and eastern europe....i think they should create certain rules which will help to keep their society homogenous and free from external influence.....and to all those who think French only roam around naked.....please don't forget we are the descendants of naked cave man!!!

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## Nair saab

Thorough Pro said:


> It's not about discrimination, It's what Allah has ruled. Period.
> 
> and for your kind information, if you ahve any knowledge about how the two sex behaviours act/react. Man is sight triggered, that's why women are ordered to observe hijab. Women are touch triggered, that's why touching a female is forbidden. Allah knows everything.



No where in Quran its written a women should wear burqha...Its not compulsory in Islam to wear Burqha...its ones personal wish...then why not wear a burqha even in ur passport photo....


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## Jackdaws

Thorough Pro said:


> no it is not, it is based on religious discrimination. In saudia if driving is forbidden its forbidden for all and driving has nothing to do with religion, driving is not even a right it's a privilage. But dressing is a very personal thing specially where it is required by a religion. and religion is a basic right.
> 
> Don't compare Saudi with French, later claim to be champions of freedom, liberty and right to choose, Saudi is monarchy they do not claim any such thing. At leasr Saudi are not hipocrites.


 
The worst offenders are never hypocrites. Hypocrites know deep down that they are wrong. The moral brigade think they are doing the right thing and hence won't have qualms at all. You can't carry Hindu idols in Saudi Arabia -

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## Karachiite

Let the games begin .


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## silko

Nair saab said:


> No where in Quran its written a women should wear burqha...Its not compulsory in Islam to wear Burqha...its ones personal wish...then why not wear a burqha even in ur passport photo....


 
yeah your right. it doesn't stand that they are going to wear burqa.

but it stands that they are going to COVER parts of their body, wich i think some of you don't understand!

and the reason for that is all about sex, i mean come on would you have sex with someone who doesnt show almost none of her body and you dont know how she looks or a Sl*t from SECULAR EUROPE that walks half naked and flashes her tits around men?

i don't say that the burqa and niqab should be allowed, mainly because my mom doesn't use them but she uses hijab, wich cover's some of your face, but you can still see her face only not the hair and ears 

people from somalia and some other from other muslim countries that live in norway uses niqab and burqa, when i ask them they say because they dont want to atract attention but thats what they are doing, while when me and my mom is out they dont care about us.

it doesn't stand in the quran that you are going to cover your entire face! thats atleast what i have been teached

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## Thorough Pro

mehboobkz said:


> Why do you disregard when I say that Jesus, Guru nanak, Bhuda, Bhagwan knows evrything?
> Why no Burqa/Niqab for non Muslims?
> Is GOD exclusive for muslims?
> Rest is peice of shik?


 
I do not disregard any religion. this is what my religion teaches me. respect other religions and don't call names o their gods. 
I can only talk of my religion, why no burqa, niqab for non muslims? you should ask that questions to Guru nanak, Bhuda, Bhagwan. etc.
No God is not exclusive to muslims only. God is the only one true god who created every thing, and everything will ultimately return to him. It's just a matter of belief. We believe in one God and try to live our lives as he wants us to live.

The difference is our religion is our way of life. We do not and can not treat them seperately. What your religion teaches you, you follow that, and I respect that. but at the same time I want other religions to be tollerant and let all other religions to be followed by their followers and not introduce laws which take away this basic right.


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## mehboobkz

Thorough Pro said:


> no it is not, it is based on religious discrimination. In saudia if driving is forbidden its forbidden for all and driving has nothing to do with religion, driving is not even a right it's a privilage. But dressing is a very personal thing specially where it is required by a religion. and religion is a basic right.
> 
> Don't compare Saudi with French, later claim to be champions of freedom, liberty and right to choose, Saudi is monarchy they do not claim any such thing. At leasr Saudi are not hipocrites.


 
Saudis are the biggest hypocrites, they fund the building of Mosques in the whole world - Superpower US included, whereas they refuse even a small Temple Synagogue or Church in its kingdom......this is shameful.

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## Thorough Pro

Nair saab said:


> No where in Quran its written a women should wear burqha...Its not compulsory in Islam to wear Burqha...its ones personal wish...then why not wear a burqha even in ur passport photo....


 
Burqa is a dress mostly used in south east asia, mostly Pakistan and Afghanistan. Islam only gives guide lines not the specifics. like in this case it requires a woman to cover her body and hair in such a manner that her body shape is not visible/evident. to achieve this objective, women are free to choose whatever method suits them.

Photo for Id/passport is taken once and is not dispalyed openly to everyone.

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## SpArK

*Welcome to the 21st century.*

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## silko

mehboobkz said:


> Saudis are the biggest hypocrites, they fund the building of Mosques in the whole world - Superpower US included, whereas they refuse even a small Temple Synagogue or Church in its kingdom......this is shameful.


 
there is a BIG difference between saudis and other muslim countries around the world, hope you know that!


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## Thorough Pro

mehboobkz said:


> The burqa or niqab can effectively mask ones identity. There have been multiple cases reported within Saudi Arabia of men masquerading as women simply by donning a burqa/niqab. I remember one such case showcased on Saudi Arabian television where a man and a burqa/niqabi clad &#8220;woman&#8221; were stopped at a checkpoint outside of Riyadh. While I do not know what prompted the &#8220;couple&#8221; to be stopped but speculate it was due to a tip off, police found when asking the &#8220;couple&#8221; to exit the vehicle that the &#8220;woman&#8221; had been hiding bootleg bottles of alcohol under the abaya. Further investigation revealed that the &#8220;woman&#8221; was in fact a man.
> 
> 
> I can give you millions of examples whre illegal arms, ammunition, drugs have been hidden in motor vehicles, homes, offices, does that mean the all vehicles should be banned, all homes and offices destroyed. more people are killed by motor vehicle accidents than fire arms, should all vehicles be banned. In the western countries all crimes done by men are done while they were wearing trousers, should all trousers be banned. most illegal arms are hidden inside the pants, should pants be banned. If you want to have a meaningfull discussion talk some sense, don't give ne or rwo examples.

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## Nair saab

Thorough Pro said:


> No where. Burqa is a dress mostly used in south east asia, mostly Pakistan and Afghanistan. Islam only gives guide lines not the specifics. like in this case it requires a woman to cover her body and hair in such a manner that her body shape is not visible/evident.
> 
> Photo for Id/passport is taken once and is not dispalyed openly to everyone.


Then why shouldnt men cover there hair & body...cant a women peep from slits in burqa to a mens chest...why hypocrisy only for women...Even Hindus had same backward rules like Ghooghat...wearing white saree after husbands death...sati etc...but most are abolished now...thanx to the strict rules made by the government...I believe if a Hindu women wear Ghooghat in public then it is backwardness & sing of suppression, the same goes for burqua & Muslim women


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## Thorough Pro

silko said:


> there is a BIG difference between saudis and other muslim countries around the world, hope you know that!


 
why is this shamefull. May be its the law of their state, just like the law the french has made against muslim women. why support one annd criticize other.
I criticize both.


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## Nair saab

silko said:


> there is a BIG difference between saudis and other muslim countries around the world, hope you know that!


 I have heard that Both believe in One god & talk about Muslim brotherhood...eventually all muslims belong to 1 UMMA etc thing...now u say saudis are different from other muslims...


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## Thorough Pro

Nair saab said:


> Then why shouldnt men cover there hair & body...cant a women peep from slits in burqa to a mens chest...why hypocrisy only for women...Even Hindus had same backward rules like Ghooghat...wearing white saree after husbands death...sati etc...but most are abolished now...thanx to the strict rules made by the government...I believe if a Hindu women wear Ghooghat in public then it is backwardness & sing of suppression, the same goes for burqua & Muslim women


 
Listen I can't give you any logic, for us muslims this what Allah has ruled. period. To us Allah is the greatest authority. We can't question him. We cant challenge him. We just follow his orders.


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## Thorough Pro

Nair saab said:


> I have heard that Both believe in One god & talk about Muslim brotherhood...eventually all muslims belong to 1 UMMA etc thing...now u say saudis are different from other muslims...


 
Probably what he meant by being different is the style of rule, not muslims or Islam. Muslims are same everywhere.

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## Nair saab

Thorough Pro said:


> Listen I can't give you any logic, for us muslims this what Allah has ruled. period. To us Allah is the greatest authority. We can't question him. We cant challenge him. We just follow his orders.


Then that same Allah never ordered that women should wear burqua...stop following the old rules blindly which mullas propagate...the same Allah said all human beings are equal irrespective of gender...


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> I do not disregard any religion. this is what my religion teaches me. respect other religions and don't call names o their gods.
> I can only talk of my religion, why no burqa, niqab for non muslims? you should ask that questions to Guru nanak, Bhuda, Bhagwan. etc.
> No God is not exclusive to muslims only. God is the only one true god who created every thing, and everything will ultimately return to him. It's just a matter of belief. We believe in one God and try to live our lives as he wants us to live.
> 
> The difference is our religion is our way of life. We do not and can not treat them seperately. What your religion teaches you, you follow that, and I respect that. but at the same time I want other religions to be tollerant and let all other religions to be followed by their followers and not introduce laws which take away this basic right.


 
You should stick to Islamic republics then..There they won't force you to unveil your face but they encourage it. Western societies are built on different norms which doesn't sit well with Islam. They have been quite successful in this world. You either follow their rules in their country or you don't go there. I see your choice is very simple.

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## Nair saab

Thorough Pro said:


> Probably what he meant by being different is the style of rule, not muslims or Islam. Muslims are same everywhere.


 
Thats what i said wearing Burqua is Cultural practise not a religious practise...there may be few women who likes to stay Inside a burqua, but there may also be thousand others who with the fear of religious obligation wear it...


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## Thorough Pro

SpArK said:


> *Welcome to the 21st century.*


 
Where most people have advanced so much in science but become intollerant and backwards in spiritual enlighenment. Where people claim to have advanced knowledge of many things but don't know who created them and why? where people spned billions and years to know what's out there in space but do not search for their true creator. where religion is treated as a dress which can be worn / taken off at will. where they have made laws that every individual is accountable for his own deeeds, but when it comes to religion they think somebody else can take the punishment for their bad deeds and they will go to heaven. Where they make laws to make all citizens accountable but forget that their creater has also made laws to hold them accountable.

this is really such a shame that despite being so advanced and academically educated, most humans have become backward and ignorant.

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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> Where most people have advanced so much in science but become intollerant and backwards in spiritual enlighenment. Where people claim to have advanced knowledge of many things but don't know who created them and why? where people spned billions and years to know what's out there in space but do not search for their true creator. where religion is treated as a dress which can be worn / taken off at will. where they have made laws that every individual is accountable for his own deeeds, but when it comes to religion they think somebody else can take the punishment for their bad deeds and they will go to heaven. Where they make laws to make all citizens accountable but forget that their creater has also made laws to hold them accountable.
> 
> this is really such a shame that despite being so advanced and academically educated, most humans have become backward and ignorant.



Like killing innocents will get you 72 virgins in heaven right? We are happy that we are not so enlightened like you are. We just wanna live this life the way we want. I don't necessarily believe in voice from heaven unless I hear it. There were several people who claimed to heard so I chose not to believe them.


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## chops3d

DesiGuy said:


> *when in Rome, do as the Romans! *


 
romans are long gone, its not 10,000 bc, world has changed, and so has india


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## alphamale

nice job by France, it is a start of new era. all useless customs relating to diff religions should be banned.


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## Thorough Pro

relativiti said:


> The principles on which France is based on should not be allowed to be bent due to some islamic religious immigrants from middle est and eastern europe....i think they should create certain rules which will help to keep their society homogenous and free from external influence.....and to all those who think French only roam around naked.....please don't forget we are the descendants of naked cave man!!!


 
The principals on which france is based on also makes it illegal to kill new born on the basis of sex, like they kill baby girls in india. It is also illegal in france to force a widow to be burned alive with her dead husband, or to force her never to re-marry again, ot to force her to only wear white Sari for the remainder of her life, or to force her never to sleep on bed, only on the floor (if not aleready burned alive with the husband). There holy cows can not roam freely on the streets. They alsoo do not approve of people using cow urine to "Clean/sterilize" thier homes. they also do not approve of the idea of four seperate casts, like it is practised in india. 

Why don't you some time spend some time just thinking honestly how empty amd morally bankrupt your own soocial and religios ssytem is before you come here and comment on Ilam which is beyond your grasp becaus eof your nartrow minded approach. If you want to study about ?isalm, study it as a religion without attaching to any nationality specially Pakistani's. May be Allah may show you some light.


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## Thorough Pro

mehboobkz said:


> Talk about yourself only. Following others will not make you european, you would still remain the same backward rootless Pakistan.


 
so you have run out of you arguments. no more discussions with a person who cant even com up with a sigle line original sentence, but keep reading son, may be you'll learn a thing or two, though I seriously doubt it.


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## Thorough Pro

alphamale said:


> nice job by France, it is a start of new era. all useless customs relating to diff religions should be banned.


 
You Indians can only do this, try banning the turban worn bu Sikhs, or even the burqa/niqab worn by muslim women in india.


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## desioptimist

Thorough Pro said:


> You Indians can only do this, try banning the turban worn bu Sikhs, or even the burqa/niqab worn by muslim women in india.


 It was not not ban on burqa, but ban on niqab.
The argument being a face veil stops people from interacting, and such a person usually withdraws herself into a shell. She cant integrate within the french society(remember most of them are immigrants, and are finding difficult to integrate).
Most french muslims do not wear niqab.
The other side of argument is it is personal choice, and this ban is politically motivated. Truth is somewhere in between these two.

Burqa is part of Indian culture now, why would anybody ban it.
However people in some part do not wear it because it is not part of their culture e.g. kashmir.


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## Thorough Pro

mehboobkz said:


> Are muslim women not attracted by a Muslim's hairy chest?
> 
> Why not a burqa for Muslim macho men?
> 
> Why biased gender discrimination?
> 
> Why rely on 7th century Sharia irrelivant codes in this 21st century?


 
Sharia is from Allah, its eternal and ever green. talking about 7th century lets talk about Hindu religions 21st century widow burning, baby girl killing and piss drinking rituals.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> You Indians can only do this, try banning the turban worn bu Sikhs, or even the burqa/niqab worn by muslim women in india.


 
Yet we are not complaining.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> Sharia is from Allah, its eternal and ever green. talking about 7th century lets talk about Hindu religions 21st century widow burning, baby girl killing and piss drinking rituals.


 
They don't believe in allah period. Its their country period. You don't go there if you don't like it period.


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## desioptimist

Thorough Pro said:


> Sharia is from Allah, its eternal and ever green. talking about 7th century lets talk about Hindu religions 21st century widow burning, baby girl killing and piss drinking rituals.


 
Two wrongs do not make it right. Sharia is as much manmade/devine as any other religious text.


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## thebrownguy

Thorough Pro said:


> talk about yourself only. Following french will not make you european, you would still remain the same backward rootless indians.


 
Whoa here we go. A descendant of converts is talking about roots.


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## relativiti

Thorough Pro said:


> The principals on which france is based on also makes it illegal to kill new born on the basis of sex, like they kill baby girls in india. It is also illegal in france to force a widow to be burned alive with her dead husband, or to force her never to re-marry again, ot to force her to only wear white Sari for the remainder of her life, or to force her never to sleep on bed, only on the floor (if not aleready burned alive with the husband). There holy cows can not roam freely on the streets. They alsoo do not approve of people using cow urine to "Clean/sterilize" thier homes. they also do not approve of the idea of four seperate casts, like it is practised in india.
> 
> Why don't you some time spend some time just thinking honestly how empty amd morally bankrupt your own soocial and religios ssytem is before you come here and comment on Ilam which is beyond your grasp becaus eof your nartrow minded approach. If you want to study about ?isalm, study it as a religion without attaching to any nationality specially Pakistani's. May be Allah may show you some light.


 
Sir! what you said i agree to some extent......the initial points existed in india long back and have been abolished and we have capital punishment against them, the rest are practiced by poor indian people who have no hope but to look at religion in life, casteism still exists as it was created over a period over several hundred years and will take longer time to change the people's mindset....i think when referring to india you should refer to the 400 million middle class people who live in towns and cities not any remote village.....i think you would also agree that hindus are more adaptive than muslims in a foreign environment......as far as myself as a religious concerned i belive what einstein said "religion and god are a product of human weakness"....no offence
i advise you to please read up something about the present indian society not the ex-indian society written by some nationalist pakistani.....try some independent writers


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## relativiti

Thorough Pro said:


> Why don't you some time spend some time just thinking honestly how empty amd morally bankrupt your own soocial and religios ssytem is before you come here and comment on Ilam which is beyond your grasp becaus eof your nartrow minded approach. If you want to study about ?isalm, study it as a religion without attaching to any nationality specially Pakistani's. May be Allah may show you some light.


 
In my view religion is something personal and our urban society is not guided by any religious system unlike yours we have heterogeneous society from a long time back ........for most indians we have a short list in life
" food, clothes, house, education, job and a life partner" then comes any religious aspects after these are fullfilled.

Prejudices are not good for health!

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## aristocrat

Thorough Pro said:


> The principals on which france is based on also makes it illegal to kill new born on the basis of sex, like they kill baby girls in india. It is also illegal in france to force a widow to be burned alive with her dead husband, or to force her never to re-marry again, ot to force her to only wear white Sari for the remainder of her life, or to force her never to sleep on bed, only on the floor (if not aleready burned alive with the husband). There holy cows can not roam freely on the streets. They alsoo do not approve of people using cow urine to "Clean/sterilize" thier homes. they also do not approve of the idea of four seperate casts, like it is practised in india.
> 
> Why don't you some time spend some time just thinking honestly how empty amd morally bankrupt your own soocial and religios ssytem is before you come here and comment on Ilam which is beyond your grasp becaus eof your nartrow minded approach. If you want to study about ?isalm, study it as a religion without attaching to any nationality specially Pakistani's. May be Allah may show you some light.



Typical brainwashed pakistani.
Where in the text u quoted did he attack islam in anyway??And BTW these 'morally bankrupt evil yindoos' r not the ones facing problems in france.They have adapted very well in evry country they have immigrated to.
For thhe sensible ones here- Its their country,they have the right to choose social norms and customs that should be prevalent so u have to follow wat they prefer.Dont like wat they impose,better leave.


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## aristocrat

relativiti said:


> Sir! what you said i agree to some extent......the initial points existed in india long back and have been abolished and we have capital punishment against them, the rest are practiced by poor indian people who have no hope but to look at religion in life, casteism still exists as it was created over a period over several hundred years and will take longer time to change the people's mindset....i think when referring to india you should refer to the 400 million middle class people who live in towns and cities not any remote village.....i think you would also agree that hindus are more adaptive than muslims in a foreign environment......as far as myself as a religious concerned i belive what einstein said "religion and god are a product of human weakness"....no offence
> i advise you to please read up something about the present indian society not the ex-indian society written by some nationalist pakistani.....try some independent writers


 No need to explain again and again on this forum mate.Even after a century they will be harping the same thing.
May alllah show them some light,from what i read everyday they r the ones who need his guidance more.


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## Thorough Pro

desioptimist said:


> It was not not ban on burqa, but ban on niqab.
> The argument being a face veil stops people from interacting, and such a person usually withdraws herself into a shell. She cant integrate within the french society(remember most of them are immigrants, and are finding difficult to integrate).
> Most french muslims do not wear niqab.
> The other side of argument is it is personal choice, and this ban is politically motivated. Truth is somewhere in between these two.
> 
> Burqa is part of Indian culture now, why would anybody ban it.
> However people in some part do not wear it because it is not part of their culture e.g. kashmir.


 
So, now the stance is changed, just a little while ago every Indian menber was back patting the french and encouraging the europe to do the same, while India itseld does not have to courage to ban the same kind of religious outfits.

Second part. If that muslim woman wants to go into a shell and not integrate with french society, its her own choice who are we to force her by making a law. Are'nt Indian widows forced to go into shell and not integrate with society? Arnet these widows forced to wear only white Sari for the rest of their life? Are'nt these widows forced ot to wear jewlery, sellp on the floor and never attend a wedding cersmoney? Why don't you In dina smake lawas against these victims who are forced against their will. why are these widows never allowed to re-marry? don't just encourage french, thhere is alot to be done at home.

Why not ban the turbans worn by Sikhs, or Yellow dresses byworn by Gurmukhi's or the same niqab worn by muslim women. 

It's not about how many women wear Burqa, even if it is only one woman in the whole of France, it is her basic birth right to choose whatever she likes to wear. and it is not even offensive. 

The ironey is these same western civilizations and their judicial system blames their own "liberated" free women when they are rpaed becuase they were wearing the modern dresses that their civilization is so famouds for. Just recently here in north america a police representative while speaking in a university said to avoid the risk of rape women should not dress like a slut. This is their own honest opinion abou the dresses their women wear. If they cant provide justice to their own women following thier own modern liberated ways, what right do they have to object to Burqa or Niqab.


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## Thorough Pro

Nair saab said:


> Then that same Allah never ordered that women should wear burqua...stop following the old rules blindly which mullas propagate...the same Allah said all human beings are equal irrespective of gender...


 
I ahve already responded to the first part. There is no argument about the second part, we always say that Isalm always teaches equality not only among all humans but between man and woman. Irt was Isalm which gave equal rights to women, share in inheritence, and above all respect for women, which was totally opposite in other religions.


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> You should stick to Islamic republics then..There they won't force you to unveil your face but they encourage it. Western societies are built on different norms which doesn't sit well with Islam. They have been quite successful in this world. You either follow their rules in their country or you don't go there. I see your choice is very simple.


 
You will never understand this, It requires strong chracter to keep your principals, ways and rules despite all opposition. Only weaklings abandon their ways and values. We are not ashamed of our ways or values, we try to educate the un-enlighhtened, don't become like them.


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> Like killing innocents will get you 72 virgins in heaven right? We are happy that we are not so enlightened like you are. We just wanna live this life the way we want. I don't necessarily believe in voice from heaven unless I hear it. There were several people who claimed to heard so I chose not to believe them.


 
The incidents you have refered to our the stand alone deeds of individuals not the teachings of Islam, just like killing jews was the act of Hitler and team not the teaching if Christianity. To be fair you must apply the same rules in all similar situations.

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## Thorough Pro

chops3d said:


> romans are long gone, its not 10,000 bc, world has changed, and so has india


 
Only if you don't have confidence in yourself and are influenced by Romans. We are not.


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## Thorough Pro

alphamale said:


> nice job by France, it is a start of new era. all useless customs relating to diff religions should be banned.


 
Take the lead, try doing the same in India. I dare you try banning thhe burqa or niqab or turban. dont just clap from the boundry line.


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## Whiplash

Thorough Pro said:


> The incidents you have refered to our the stand alone deeds of individuals not the teachings of Islam, just like killing jews was the act of Hitler and team not the teaching if Christianity. To be fair you must apply the same rules in all similar situations.


 
Hitler never claimed to kill the jews under the name of christianity. The terrorists on the other hand do so for Islam. So there is a vast difference in the example you gave and what he said


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## Whiplash

Thorough Pro said:


> Take the lead, try doing the same in India. I dare you try banning thhe burqa or niqab or turban. dont just clap from the boundry line.


 
Oh we'll ban it eventually. Bt means of education. The women, both hindu and muslim.. Will realise that they don't have to be subjected to this oppression


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> They don't believe in allah period. Its their country period. You don't go there if you don't like it period.


 
They are not atheists, they also believe in God, Allah is the name we muslims use.

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## Thorough Pro

desioptimist said:


> Two wrongs do not make it right. Sharia is as much manmade/devine as any other religious text.


 
It's your ignorance, or media misguide. let's talk about who told you to make idols from stone, mud, wood with your own hands and the bow to them? pray them as gods. 21st century science?

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## relativiti

Thorough Pro said:


> It's your ignorance, or media misguide. let's talk about who told you to make idols from stone, mud, wood with your own hands and the bow to them? pray them as gods. 21st century science?


 
So what??? hinduism is the oldest religion on earth created, modified and interpreted differently for so long .....we don't have any one person coming from nowhere with some divine message to preach love and peace and humanity like Christianity. Islam, etc etc has. Hinduism is more a way of life not merely a religion...... almost 4000 yrs old not some recent sensation


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## Thorough Pro

thebrownguy said:


> Whoa here we go. A descendant of converts is talking about roots.


 
May be i am a descedndant of converts may be not, but its not important what my fore fathers were, if they lived a dark life of ignorance, i don't have to. Thanks to Allah he gave me birth in a muslim household and gave me wisdom to understand, wisdom to tell the right from wrong, wisdom to recognize (truely no one can calim to recognize Allah, he is beyond our limited approach and wisdom) and praise the true creator. Its not bravery or wisdom to keep following your forefathers, they were as humans as we are, if we can make mistakes they also would have mistakes. Use your head, see all that is around you, look at how this universe functions, try to see the light, allah only shows the light to those who want to see it, who make an effort in this direction.


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## Thorough Pro

relativiti said:


> So what??? hinduism is the oldest religion on earth created, modified and interpreted differently for so long .....we don't have any one person coming from nowhere with some divine message to preach love and peace and humanity like Christianity. Islam, etc etc has. Hinduism is more a way of life not merely a religion...... almost 4000 yrs old not some recent sensation


 
Interesting, Is it really 4000 years old? what was before that? btw not too long ago it was believed that earth is flat, the discovery that it is round is just a new sensation like many other things. tell me if you can how it came in to being? Is hinduism is a religion or a way of life as you said? How did it evolve? where did your religious books (if any) came from? did one person write them or many? or did they just happend? What is the status / role of religious leaders in hindu religion?


If you follow your religion in tru spirit, you will never hate any other religion.


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## Thorough Pro

relativiti said:


> In my view religion is something personal and our urban society is not guided by any religious system unlike yours we have heterogeneous society from a long time back ........for most indians we have a short list in life
> " food, clothes, house, education, job and a life partner" then comes any religious aspects after these are fullfilled.
> 
> Prejudices are not good for health!


 
Just in another post you said that hindu religion is not really religion, its more of a way of life and that it is 4000 year old. what you wrote now is totally opposite. Can you define the meaning of religin freely?


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## relativiti

Thorough Pro said:


> Interesting, tell me if you can how it came in to being? Is hinduism is a religion or a way of life as you said? How did it evolve? where did your religious books (if any) came from? did one person write them or many? or did they just happend? What is the status / role of religious leaders in hindu religion?
> 
> If you follow your religion in tru spirit, you will never hate any other religion.



I never said anything hatred about any religion what i meant in the current issue is that you have a french society which is liberal (you might find women without clothes walking in the street and no body is even noticing her)and alienistic on islamic context and due to merely some immigrants who cannot adjust in the society and their dresses, behaviour etc create problems for the french people and prove to be hindrance in their everyday life (these muslim women religious dresses arouse suspicion among the people and are a security concern to an extent)


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## GareebNawaz

Go France!!!!!

If you can't follow a country's rules then you best get out!


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## Thorough Pro

Whiplash said:


> Oh we'll ban it eventually. Bt means of education. The women, both hindu and muslim.. Will realise that they don't have to be subjected to this oppression


 
but case of muslim women its not forcefull and not considered as opression because it is not, you observe it in your own country not all women wear it, only those who want to.


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## Thorough Pro

GareebNawaz said:


> Go France!!!!!
> 
> If you can't follow a country's rules then you best get out!


 
You say go France. I say go India, try this in India my friend. go India go.

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## relativiti

Thorough Pro said:


> Just in another post you said that hindu religion is not really religion, its more of a way of life and that it is 4000 year old. what you wrote now is totally opposite. Can you define the meaning of religin freely?


 
I myself is an agnostic but born in a hindu family and have friends from many religion including muslim girls. but we were taught about the origin and evolution of great religions in our schools so i have quite some idea about religions.
Are we discussing the importance of religion in life????
for me its a big zero I like to stick with science and rationality


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## DESERT FIGHTER

GareebNawaz said:


> Go France!!!!!
> 
> If you can't follow a country's rules then you best get out!


 
Wow man........ wats with the hatred? ur so full of ...

God help u.

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## Thorough Pro

relativiti said:


> I never said anything hatred about any religion what i meant in the current issue is that you have a french society which is liberal (you might find women without clothes walking in the street and no body is even noticing her)and alienistic on islamic context and due to merely some immigrants who cannot adjust in the society and their dresses, behaviour etc create problems for the french people and prove to be hindrance in their everyday life (these muslim women religious dresses arouse suspicion among the people and are a security concern to an extent)


 
Why do you define "Liberal" as onle being able to go nude in the streets as per one's will but not fully covered as per others will. The word should have the same meaning, giving freedom of choice, this is what I understand. May be this is some new word which means only what they want, like "you are free to do waht i want you to do".


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## Thorough Pro

relativiti said:


> I myself is an agnostic but born in a hindu family and have friends from many religion including muslim girls. but we were taught about the origin and evolution of great religions in our schools so i have quite some idea about religions.
> Are we discussing the importance of religion in life????
> for me its a big zero I like to stick with science and rationality


 
If this is true, and i honestly believe it to be true, then this should be the case with most hindu religion followers. But then why do we feel so much hatered towards muslims in Indian society? Why so many hindu muslim riots? why demolition of babri mosque? sorry to say but the same feeling is freely and openly expressed not only on this forum but so many other forums? Why so many indian members are expressing their joy on this suppression of basic rights by a supposedly advance tollerant society? why are indian menbers back patting toiher european countries to follow suite? Waht you say is much contradictory to general behaviour/expression.

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## relativiti

Thorough Pro said:


> Why do you define "Liberal" as onle being able to go nude in the streets as per one's will but not fully covered as per others will. The word should have the same meaning, giving freedom of choice, this is what I understand. May be this is some new word which means only what they want, like "you are free to do waht i want you to do".


 
adjusting with the present french society sir! contrast of burqa with bikini!! imagine a situation where in a beach you have 500 french women with bikinis on and a burqa clad comes here and sitss by a chick sunbathing topless!! 

Also you see the difference in mentality you noticed a woman nude as offensive as per french a excessive clothed woman is offensive.
Right to choice of immigrants comes after the Right to way of life of original french


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> They are not atheists, they also believe in God, Allah is the name we muslims use.


 
I thanked you by mistake. Yes they believe in a different god who doesn't believe in forcing women to cover up. I said it before I say it again its their country and their rules, you don't like it you stick to your own country.


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## Thorough Pro

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Wow man........ wats with the hatred? ur so full of ...
> 
> God help u.


 
No! No! he is not showing hatered, the poor guy has no arguments to offer, hence he resorted to a no value single liner. let heim stay he may learn a few things, though i seriously doubt it because hatered filled minds are closed minds.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> If this is true, and i honestly believe it to be true, then this should be the case with most hindu religion followers. But then why do we feel so much hatered towards muslims in Indian society? Why so many hindu muslim riots? why demolition of babri mosque? sorry to say but the same feeling is freely and openly expressed not only on this forum but so many other forums? Why so many indian members are expressing their joy on this suppression of basic rights by a supposedly advance tollerant society? why are indian menbers back patting toiher european countries to follow suite? Waht you say is much contradictory to general behaviour/expression.


 
TO answer that you just have to read last 1000 years history of subcontinent. I personally don't think its any justification. It was a different time and different ways.


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## relativiti

Thorough Pro said:


> If this is true, and i honestly believe it to be true, then this should be the case with most hindu religion followers. But then why do we feel so much hatered towards muslims in Indian society? Why so many hindu muslim riots? why demolition of babri mosque? sorry to say but the same feeling is freely and openly expressed not only on this forum but so many other forums? Why so many indian members are expressing their joy on this suppression of basic rights by a supposedly advance tollerant society? why are indian menbers back patting toiher european countries to follow suite? Waht you say is much contradictory to general behaviour/expression.


 
Don't go over babri again......a reminder the mosque was created by a mughal ruler by destroying an already existant hindu temple if you know
some hindus are religious and some are not. I don't reflect the present day hindus. but i can say i reflect the present day youngsters for us an ipad or a dell laptop is more attractive than some religious books...riots if you say then i would say its an expression by uneducated and religiously motivated extremist minded youths.....In India presently there isn't much hatred about muslims the reason is as i already mentioned the present priorities of an average indian. religious hindus don't go and fight the muslims unlike the muslims they just simply avoid them.......anyways have you heard about APJ Abdul Kalam, Aziz Premji, perhaps zaheer khan or yusuf pathan rings a bell??

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## relativiti

Thorough Pro said:


> If this is true, and i honestly believe it to be true, then this should be the case with most hindu religion followers. But then why do we feel so much hatered towards muslims in Indian society? Why so many hindu muslim riots? why demolition of babri mosque? sorry to say but the same feeling is freely and openly expressed not only on this forum but so many other forums? Why so many indian members are expressing their joy on this suppression of basic rights by a supposedly advance tollerant society? why are indian menbers back patting toiher european countries to follow suite? Waht you say is much contradictory to general behaviour/expression.



So you see the extent of islamophobia in indians your religious nutjobs and terrorists have created!!! fruits of a tree who's seeds were sowed a long time ago!! even the mughal period contributed to it with oppression of hindus


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> I thanked you by mistake. Yes they believe in a different god who doesn't believe in forcing women to cover up. I said it before I say it again its their country and their rules, you don't like it you stick to your own country.


 
No problem, you can take your thank back, or is there something i can do to reverse that thank? let me know.

In Pakistan there are normally 30~35 students in a college/ university class, give or take five. Some are very good students they alwys ger good grades, they always follow the instructions, some are back benchers like me, they waste their time, don't pay much attention in the calss, don't complete the assignments and fail. But despite all that disparity and opposite behaviour one thing they have in common is the teacher. It's the same teacher.

There is but only one GOD, call him by whatever name, but there is only ONE GOD. So the only one GOD gave the same lesson / same instructions to all mankind, some follow him, they will ultimately pass with good grades, some are just ignorant fools, they are going to fail big time, and there is not going to be a retake on this examination, this life is the final exam, one chance, pass or fail, you choose.

Just assuming that their god is different who does not tell their women to cover, ask them does he tell them to be homosexuals? does he tell them to be lesbians? does he tell them to opeate strip clubs? prostituton houses? pron? dont wait for their answer, i'll tell you NO. Strictly NO. Even hindu religion does not tell these things. hence they are are not following their god, if they think he is different form our GOD. the think life is differenbt form religion. They treat religion like a piece of dress. they can prostitute for the whole week and then go to church on the 8th day and think all is well. Religion is like an operating system, all other systems reside on operating system and must be compatible. Religion is a way of life, it guides and directs you, otherwise it is useless.


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## relativiti

Thorough Pro said:


> No problem, you can take your thank back, or is there something i can do to reverse that thank? let me know.
> 
> In Pakistan there are normally 30~35 students in a college/ university class, give or take five. Some are very good students they alwys ger good grades, they always follow the instructions, some are back benchers like me, they waste their time, don't pay much attention in the calss, don't complete the assignments and fail. But despite all that disparity and opposite behaviour one thing they have in common is the teacher. It's the same teacher.
> 
> There is but only one GOD, call him by whatever name, but there is only ONE GOD. So the only one GOD gave the same lesson / same instructions to all mankind, some follow him, they will ultimately pass with good grades, some are just ignorant fools, they are going to fail big time, and there is not going to be a retake on this examination, this life is the final exam, one chance, pass or fail, you choose.
> 
> Just assuming that their god is different who does not tell their women to cover, ask them does he tell them to be homosexuals? does he tell them to be lesbians? does he tell them to opeate strip clubs? prostituton houses? pron? dont wait for their answer, i'll tell you NO. Strictly NO. Even hindu religion does not tell these things. hence they are are not following their god, if they think he is different form our GOD. the think life is differenbt form religion. They treat religion like a piece of dress. they can prostitute for the whole week and then go to church on the 8th day and think all is well. Religion is like an operating system, all other systems reside on operating system and must be compatible. Religion is a way of life, it guides and directs you, otherwise it is useless.


 
thanks for the lecture!!


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## Thorough Pro

relativiti said:


> So you see the extent of islamophobia in indians your religious nutjobs and terrorists have created!!! fruits of a tree who's seeds were sowed a long time ago!! even the mughal period contributed to it with oppression of hindus


 
I am afraid I cant agree with you argument because this terrorism is like 5/7 at most 10 year old. but thhe hindu hostility towards muslims is centuries old. There was no such terrorism in pre partitin days, then why did a hindu wrote a very controversial book about islamic personalities? why were there so many hindu muslim riots before partition? why were there so many riots before 9/11. Why riots and killings of sikhs or christians for that matter they can not be associated with current terrorism which has nothing to do with Islam.All these events only prove that what you said about hindu religion teaching peace and tollerance towards other eligions seems untrue.


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## Thorough Pro

relativiti said:


> thanks for the lecture!!


 
You are most welcome, glad to be of service, btw it was not a lecture.


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## Thorough Pro

relativiti said:


> your religious nutjobs and terrorists


 
They are not ours. They are not religious. we denounce them. We condem them. We fight them, we execute and destroy them.


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## aristocrat

Thorough Pro said:


> No problem, you can take your thank back, or is there something i can do to reverse that thank? let me know.
> 
> In Pakistan there are normally 30~35 students in a college/ university class, give or take five. Some are very good students they alwys ger good grades, they always follow the instructions, some are back benchers like me, they waste their time, don't pay much attention in the calss, don't complete the assignments and fail. But despite all that disparity and opposite behaviour one thing they have in common is the teacher. It's the same teacher.
> 
> There is but only one GOD, call him by whatever name, but there is only ONE GOD. So the only one GOD gave the same lesson / same instructions to all mankind, some follow him, they will ultimately pass with good grades, some are just ignorant fools, they are going to fail big time, and there is not going to be a retake on this examination, this life is the final exam, one chance, pass or fail, you choose.
> 
> Just assuming that their god is different who does not tell their women to cover, ask them does he tell them to be homosexuals? does he tell them to be lesbians? does he tell them to opeate strip clubs? prostituton houses? pron? dont wait for their answer, i'll tell you NO. Strictly NO. Even hindu religion does not tell these things. hence they are are not following their god, if they think he is different form our GOD. the think life is differenbt form religion. They treat religion like a piece of dress. they can prostitute for the whole week and then go to church on the 8th day and think all is well. Religion is like an operating system, all other systems reside on operating system and must be compatible. Religion is a way of life, it guides and directs you, otherwise it is useless.


 Its their way of living,their life,simple as that.They may or may not be following their religion the way it should be but again thats their choice.
For france i can understand,but in case of ny other country banning burqa it could be equated to religious intolerance i guess.


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## Thorough Pro

relativiti said:


> adjusting with the present french society sir! contrast of burqa with bikini!! imagine a situation where in a beach you have 500 french women with bikinis on and a burqa clad comes here and sitss by a chick sunbathing topless!!
> 
> Also you see the difference in mentality you noticed a woman nude as offensive as per french a excessive clothed woman is offensive.
> Right to choice of immigrants comes after the Right to way of life of original french


 
You are comparing a right with a wrong and trying to prove that wrong is right. a million wrongs don't make a right, wrong.

I do not agree, nudity is still considered offensive in most parts of the world including france, try going nude on a city streeet, you will be arrested.

Usually burqa clad women don't go to beaches. 

It's not adjusting, adjustmnet they (muslim) women have already done, by covering themselves on seeing so much nudity. What you are saying is compulsion against the will. Ironically these same french hipocrio tes are leading from the front in bombarding Libya to liberate them from a ruler who is (according to them) suling the people against their will, Is it not the same these french are trying by passing the law by not allowing women to wear a piece of dress against their will.

Talking about right, why then this same western media makes noise when some african country prohibited it's citizen women from wearing trousers. If the french can make the law so can all other countries. Why do they make so much noise about compulsory hhead scarf in Iran, its their law. Just imagine how much noise will they make if some muslim country passes a law banning women from wearing trusers. This is hipocricy at its peak.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> No problem, you can take your thank back, or is there something i can do to reverse that thank? let me know.
> 
> In Pakistan there are normally 30~35 students in a college/ university class, give or take five. Some are very good students they alwys ger good grades, they always follow the instructions, some are back benchers like me, they waste their time, don't pay much attention in the calss, don't complete the assignments and fail. But despite all that disparity and opposite behaviour one thing they have in common is the teacher. It's the same teacher.
> 
> There is but only one GOD, call him by whatever name, but there is only ONE GOD. So the only one GOD gave the same lesson / same instructions to all mankind, some follow him, they will ultimately pass with good grades, some are just ignorant fools, they are going to fail big time, and there is not going to be a retake on this examination, this life is the final exam, one chance, pass or fail, you choose.
> 
> Just assuming that their god is different who does not tell their women to cover, ask them does he tell them to be homosexuals? does he tell them to be lesbians? does he tell them to opeate strip clubs? prostituton houses? pron? dont wait for their answer, i'll tell you NO. Strictly NO. Even hindu religion does not tell these things. hence they are are not following their god, if they think he is different form our GOD. the think life is differenbt form religion. They treat religion like a piece of dress. they can prostitute for the whole week and then go to church on the 8th day and think all is well. Religion is like an operating system, all other systems reside on operating system and must be compatible. Religion is a way of life, it guides and directs you, otherwise it is useless.


 
Well I don't believe religion is like an operating system as you trying to make me believe. I agree Religion is a way of life, and way of life changes with time.You make changes as you go along. It shouldn't be rigid. There is no one right way. Its just a way of life and not life itself.

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## sur

*What is asked in Quran & Hadees is following... Those "Ninjas" are later inventions....*
-
-
-
*Q:24:31:*And say thou unto the believing women that they shall lower their sights and guard their private parts and shall not disclose their adornment except that which appeareth thereof; *and they shall draw their scarves over their bosoms*; and shall not disclose their adornment except unto their husbands or their fathers or their husbands fathers or their sons or their husbands sons or their brothers or their brothers sons or their sisters sons or their Women or those whom their right hands own or male followers wanting in sex desire or children not acquainted with the privy parts of women; and they Shall not strike their feet so that there be known that which they hide of their adornment. And turn penitently unto Allah ye all, O ye believers, haply ye may thrive!


*Q:33:59:*O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should *cast their outer garments over themselves *"&#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1761;&#1729;&#1616;&#1606;&#1617;&#1614; " _(when abroad)_: that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested: and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (59)





*Abu dawood:27:4092:* Chapter : How much beauty can a woman display.

Narated By 'Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin : Asma, daughter of Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (pbuh) turned his attention from her. He said: O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body *except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands*.

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## chops3d

alphamale said:


> nice job by France, it is a start of new era. all useless customs relating to diff religions should be banned.


 
for your naziistic thoughts, let me give french a better idea, i think france will do a nice job by expelling all indians starting with australia,, dont you think so??

france is for french and not for indians in the first place


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## Thorough Pro

I am amzaed how indian members are happy and patting the french on passing the law banning burqa, trying to prove that this dress and hence muslims are backward and the Indians are very modern, advanced and liberated. but contrary to the much publicized bollywood style open and modern culture in india, reality is very different. 

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


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## true_indian

chops3d said:


> for your naziistic thoughts, let me give french a better idea, i think france will do a nice job by expelling all indians starting with australia,, dont you think so??
> 
> france is for french and not for indians in the first place


 
If they have problem with Indians let them say so..We'll be more than happy to leave. Right now issue is burqa..lets talk about it.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> I am amzaed how indian members are happy and patting the french on passing the law banning burqa, trying to prove that this dress and hence muslims are backward and the Indians are very modern, advanced and liberated. but contrary to the much publicized bollywood style open and modern culture in india, reality is very different.
> 
> YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.



Location in that video is arguable. Some say Pakistan. Also its not about dating but rather extra marital affair. You would be served well if you really understand the context before posting it here.

I am not saying all Indians are progressive. But India is very young country just like Pakistan. I can say for sure young Indians are more than open minded than young Pakistanis. May be you should wait for one more generation.

PS: We are not here to talk about India are we? The article is about burqa banning in France. Lets get back to that. Its not like I insulted Pakistan or anything.


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## chops3d

true_indian said:


> If they have problem with Indians let them say so..We'll be more than happy to leave. Right now issue is burqa..lets talk about it.


 
i didnt reply to you, australians have problems with you, why dont you leave australia??


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## Hawk Eyes

their should also be a ban for putting lipstick on one's forehead.


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## EagleEyes

Burnz said:


> Even India should.


 
I really hope India does it.


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> Well I don't believe religion is like an operating system as you trying to make me believe. I agree Religion is a way of life, and way of life changes with time.You make changes as you go along. It shouldn't be rigid. There is no one right way. Its just a way of life and not life itself.


 
I do not try to make any one believe anything, i only try to express myself as best as i can, you can make your mind yourself and I respect that. I did not meant that religin is an operating system I was just trying to explain that for muslims religion can not be seperated from life. It is a way of life. Rules defined by religion are clear, firm, and consistent. alll other activities should comply with the islamic rules and fall within the defined limits, not vice versa.

For example hand shake with a NA-MEHRAM (a woman with whom one can legally and ethically marry, any woman other than mother, grand mother, mother-in-law, siste, daughter, niece, aunty, etc) is strictly forbidden. This limit is set by Allah, it was set 1400 years ago and regardless of which planet or which century we live in this rule is final and firm. Laws made by Allah are universal they do not expire and they do not become obsolete, unless Allah changes them or replaces them with new ones.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> I do not try to make any one believe anything, i only try to express myself as best as i can, you can make your mind yourself and I respect that. I did not meant that religin is an operating system I was just trying to explain that for muslims religion can not be seperated from life. It is a way of life. Rules defined by religion are clear, firm, and consistent. alll other activities should comply with the islamic rules and fall within the defined limits, not vice versa.
> 
> For example hand shake with a NA-MEHRAM (a woman with whom one can legally and ethically marry, any woman other than mother, grand mother, mother-in-law, siste, daughter, niece, aunty, etc) is strictly forbidden. This limit is set by Allah, it was set 1400 years ago and regardless of which planet or which century we live in this rule is final and firm. Laws made by Allah are universal they do not expire and they do not become obsolete, unless Allah changes them or replaces them with new ones.


 
Well your rules doesn't sit well with the rest of the world. What can't you understand? You might want to live a life a certain way but others may not like to respect it. Its not like they are asking just the Muslims not to cover, it also applies to Sikhs and Jews. I don't see them making so much hoopla about it. Yet if you really think wearing burqa is so important to a Muslim may be they should think of leaving. Go back to their own islamic countries, wear burqa as much as they like, no ones stopping them.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> I do not try to make any one believe anything, i only try to express myself as best as i can, you can make your mind yourself and I respect that. I did not meant that religin is an operating system I was just trying to explain that for muslims religion can not be seperated from life. It is a way of life. Rules defined by religion are clear, firm, and consistent. alll other activities should comply with the islamic rules and fall within the defined limits, not vice versa.
> 
> For example hand shake with a NA-MEHRAM (a woman with whom one can legally and ethically marry, any woman other than mother, grand mother, mother-in-law, siste, daughter, niece, aunty, etc) is strictly forbidden. T*his limit is set by Allah, it was set 1400 years ago and regardless of which planet or which century we live in this rule is final and firm. Laws made by Allah are universal they do not expire and they do not become obsolete, unless Allah changes them or replaces them with new ones.*


 
Breaking news Sunshine. I don't believe in Allah. France is not Islamic country. If you don't like it you should move to a place where every one is Muslim.


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## true_indian

chops3d said:


> i didnt reply to you, australians have problems with you, why dont you leave australia??


 
Let the ordinary Australian say that. They have more problems with Muslims than us.

---------- Post added at 05:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 AM ----------




Hawk Eyes said:


> their should also be a ban for putting lipstick on one's forehead.


 
Exactly right. That would boost your ego.


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## chops3d

true_indian said:


> Let the ordinary Australian say that.


 
racist attacks on you indians isnt enough for you for ordinary aussie to exhibit his anger..


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> Location in that video is arguable. Some say Pakistan. Also its not about dating but rather extra marital affair. You would served well if you really understand the context before posting it here.
> 
> I am not saying all Indians are progressive. But India is very young country just like Pakistan. I can say for sure young Indians are more than open minded than young Pakistanis. May be you should wait for one more generation.
> 
> PS: We are not here to talk about India are we? The article is about burqa banning in France. Lets get back to that. Its not like I insulted Pakistan or anything.


 
The location is Indian Punjab. language, pronounciation, dress, abode, features, complexion, they all can reveal a lot.

I perfectly know the context of the clip, the french so admired here by indian memmbers just do not stop after taking their clothes off, I believe they go farther. 

So you are saying at at present Indians admire and follow french only upto undressing, and future generations will start admiring and following for activities which strat afterwards. You only proved that Indians are still backward compared to french standard. You know french also don't mind their wives going in bed with strangers.

We will wait for younger Indian generation to become so "Enlightened" and open minded.

We are not only discussing french hipocricy on Burqa, we are also discussing Indian hipocricy on supporing this law by french but not having balls to pass a similar law in india itself.


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## true_indian

chops3d said:


> racist attacks on you indians isnt enough for you for ordinary aussie to exhibit his anger..


 
Nope I don't think so. Yet the number of Indians going to that country is dropped by 30%. Their prime minister was in our country pledging Australia is open to business with us. So no.

If that is reference for leaving the country then Muslims are stereotyped to be terrorists in most parts of the world. I don't see them leaving, do you?


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> Let the ordinary Australian say that. They have more problems with Muslims than us.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly right. That would boost your ego.


 
you see Burqa and Bindia are the same thing. symbols of religious differenciation. If one is right, other must be right as well.


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> Nope I don't think so. Yet the number of Indians going to that country is dropped by 30%. Their prime minister was in our country pledging Australia is open to business with us. So no.
> 
> If that is reference for leaving the country then Muslims are stereotyped to be terrorists in most parts of the world. I don't see them leaving, do you?


 
Never quote and believe a head of state. they are the biggest liars of all times. Don't you have any head of state in india? or you just don't pay attention.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> The location is Indian Punjab. language, pronounciation, dress, abode, features, complexion, they all can reveal a lot.
> 
> I perfectly know the context of the clip, the french so admired here by indian memmbers just do not stop after taking their clothes off, I believe they go farther.
> 
> So you are saying at at present Indians admire and follow french only upto undressing, and future generations will start admiring and following for activities which strat afterwards. You only proved that Indians are still backward compared to french standard. You know french also don't mind their wives going in bed with strangers.
> 
> We will wait for younger Indian generation to become so "Enlightened" and open minded.
> 
> We are not only discussing french hipocricy on Burqa, we are also discussing Indian hipocricy on supporing this law by french but not having balls to pass a similar law in india itself.


 
Buddy India is not France. We are more than happy with our Muslims. If we have to ban it, we will. Right now I don't see the necessity.

I am seeing the merit in France decision. Obviously they are worried about terrorism and Muslims integration into their society. We don't have such issues. I am okay with our Muslims integration into our society.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> Never quote and believe a head of state. they are the biggest liars of all times. Don't you have any head of state in india? or you just don't pay attention.


 
What are you talking about? We elect our Prime minister, he is representative of India to the outside world. We are not talking about Pakistan Politicians. Our politicians may be corrupt but never morally bankrupt.


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> Breaking news Sunshine. I don't believe in Allah. France is not Islamic country. If you don't like it you should move to a place where every one is Muslim.


 
Good for you, your choice what you believe in or what you do not believe in. We are not discussing your beliefs here.

That is the answer any 5 year old would feel ashamed to give. It's not about living in or leaving France or ant other country. These europeans including France are self proclaimed chmpions of human rights and freedom of thought and expression. If going nude is freedom of expression, so is covering ones face and head. It's the hipocricy and white lies that we are discussing. BTW don't worry France will be the first non muslim european country to become muslim majority country within 10/15 years.

They are afraid, they are frightened by the truth spreading so fast.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> you see Burqa and Bindia are the same thing. symbols of religious differenciation. If one is right, other must be right as well.


 
You should ask France to do it. Theres no point in rambling here.


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> What are you talking about? We elect our Prime minister, they are representative of India to the outside world. We are not talking about Pakistan Politicians. Our politicians may be corrupt but never morally bankrupt.


 
I do not know you, and you do not know me. I have given you respect by discussing the matter on hand and expect the same in return. If you think you vcan not control your emotions then call it a day, but don't scoop so low to start personal attacks. if you find it hard to understand any post in the first attempt, a second read usually helps.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> Good for you, your choice what you believe in or what you do not believe in. We are not discussing your beliefs here.
> 
> That is the answer any 5 year old would feel ashamed to give. It's not about living in or leaving France or ant other country. These europeans including France are self proclaimed chmpions of human rights and freedom of thought and expression. If going nude is freedom of expression, so is covering ones face and head. It's the hipocricy and white lies that we are discussing. BTW don't worry France will be the first non muslim european country to become muslim majority country within 10/15 years.
> 
> They are afraid, they are frightened by the truth spreading so fast.


 
I'll tell you the controversial truth. They are not afraid of nude women blowing themselves off. But with burqa you never know. One could hide anything in it. Security overrides freedom of expression, if you don't know.


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## StingRoy

Thorough Pro said:


> you see Burqa and Bindia are the same thing. symbols of religious differenciation. If one is right, other must be right as well.



The french rule isn't against the burqa, rather against hiding one's face in public. A Bindi does not hide a woman's face. If you really want to compare, compare apples to apples.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> I do not know you, and you do not know me. I have given you respect by discussing the matter on hand and expect the same in return. If you think you vcan not control your emotions then call it a day, but don't scoop so low to start personal attacks. if you find it hard to understand any post in the first attempt, a second read usually helps.


 
Personal attacks where?


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> You should ask France to do it. Theres no point in rambling here.


 
I am not rambling, haven't you read my posts. I don't give yuk about french, I know their history. It's in rewsponse to the post by an Indian member. if it's hard to comprehend, just let it pass, I wasn't particularly seeking you to reply.


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## Thorough Pro

StingRoy said:


> The french rule isn't against the burqa, rather against hiding one's face in public. A Bindi does not hide a woman's face. If you really want to compare, compare apples to apples.


 
This is wher the problem is when you start interpretting in a manner which favours your cause. Where did i said bindia ciovers the face. I said they both are symbols of differenciation. just as burqa clad woman stands out in half nude french woman, similarly a bindia worn woman stands out among clear forheaded french women.


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## Watani

To everyone who compares Saudi with France, you are forgetting that Saudi is an Islamic republic where (obviously) Islamic rules apply. France claims to be a democracy where women for ages were wearing burqas and all of a sudden have to give up that lifestyle, DESPITE being citizen of a country she so called has 'freedom of religious practise, freedom of speech, and all other so called freedoms'.

Though I personally never understood how a woman can keep up to western society without interacting with westerners?


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> I'll tell you the controversial truth. They are not afraid of nude women blowing themselves off. But with burqa you never know. One could hide anything in it. Security overrides freedom of expression, if you don't know.


 
don't be naive, I expect some intelligence from you. Burqa is not the only garment where you can hide illegal things, how about under thhe skiet? how about hand bag? normally all handguns legal or illegal are carried in trouser waist, why not ban wearing trousers? how about carrying illegal items in car trunks, let's just ban the vehicles. And criminal don't live on streets they hide in home, lets just dstroy all the homes.

These are all lame excuses my friend and you are trying very hard to protect the french.


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## chops3d

true_indian said:


> Nope I don't think so. Yet the number of Indians going to that country is dropped by 30%. Their prime minister was in our country pledging Australia is open to business with us. So no.
> 
> If that is reference for leaving the country then Muslims are stereotyped to be terrorists in most parts of the world. I don't see them leaving, do you?


 
ok brother dont leave australia stay there until aussies kill every one last of you, but leave saudi arabia, dubai, qatar behrain etc, if you are against burka or islam, if u hate islamic values those muzzlum terrorist, those jehadists, why dont you leave those islamic countries or terrorist countries, hope india offers you better standard of living and better money, those evil muzlums must be left alone, go back to your country, good for you

those evil muslim uys dont allow your western standard of thinking and opress you, y u stay there??

why you to to indonesia and malaysia, stay in your india?? i think there r already millions of your indian expets who hate evil muzzlums and burka live in each of these countries, so why not gather all these hundreds of millions from all over muslim lands to india?

y r u rebuilding afghanistan, why are you there in a muslim land, leave afghanistan, y better relations with the opressed nation of iran, recieve oil from france then saudi arabia or iran, all these are evil muslim lands, first you take muzzlum oil, then also criticise muzzlums living in france to behave like french, you indians in france must stop eating curry and start respecting french food from now on


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> I'll tell you the controversial truth. They are not afraid of nude women blowing themselves off. But with burqa you never know. One could hide anything in it. Security overrides freedom of expression, if you don't know.


 
and what about so many minds that they blow each day?


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## true_indian

Watani said:


> To everyone who compares Saudi with France, you are forgetting that Saudi is an Islamic republic where (obviously) Islamic rules apply. France claims to be a democracy where women for ages were wearing burqas and all of a sudden have to give up that lifestyle, DESPITE being citizen of a country she so called has 'freedom of religious practise, freedom of speech, and all other so called freedoms'.
> 
> Though I personally never understood how a woman can keep up to western society without interacting with westerners?



I don't understand, are you all oblivion to happenings of last decade? No longer Islam an exotic religion. It has become synonymous to terrorism. I personally don't agree. But you should be living under the rock if you think otherwise. I don't see moderate Muslims condemning this representation either. So unless things change dramatically see more of the western world taking more of such measures.


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## saleen_s7

The level of intolerance here is just despicable. Democracy mean complete democracy. Be it a women deciding to wear a burkha in France or Salman Rushie living in peace in Pakistan. Why are their so many ifs and buts all of a sudden? Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it should not exist. I heard a phrase few days ago which went something like" I may not like what you wear, but I will give my life fighting for the right for what you want to wear". Anyways, if the French govt is so worried about islamists and what not, they should invest money on strengthening their security force or something to that level. thats a price French govt has to take in account when it claims to be full on democracy. 

PS : Its really frustrating how some people are really prejudiced on other's cultures and religions. This ban in Niqab/Hijab resembles more than what the French govt, wants to do. Its a direct threat to democracy, and i strongly believe more people should unite against this


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## true_indian

chops3d said:


> ok brother dont leave australia stay there until aussies kill every one last of you, but leave saudi arabia, dubai, qatar behrain etc, if you are against burka or islam, if u hate islamic values those muzzlum terrorist, those jehadists, why dont you leave those islamic countries or terrorist countries, hope india offers you better standard of living and better money, those evil muzlums must be left alone, go back to your country, good for you
> 
> those evil muslim uys dont allow your western standard of thinking and opress you, y u stay there??
> 
> why you to to indonesia and malaysia, stay in your india?? i think there r already millions of your indian expets who hate evil muzzlums and burka live in each of these countries, so why not gather all these hundreds of millions from all over muslim lands to india?


 
Dude, we don't hate Islam. We are living with it for centuries. Just like you. We understand it better than any Westerner. I don't think Pakistan or for that matter SA is true champions of Islam. Before you forget India has 165 million Muslims genius. Anyways, We are not talking about India or Indians here. France is not India, an eye opener don't you think?


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## StingRoy

Thorough Pro said:


> This is wher the problem is when you start interpretting in a manner which favours your cause. Where did i said bindia ciovers the face. I said they both are symbols of differenciation. just as burqa clad woman stands out in half nude french woman, similarly a bindia worn woman stands out among clear forheaded french women.


 
You should read more about the law before arguing here with a hot head. You could have come up with an argument debating the banning of purdah system (old hindu tradition equivalent to burqa) and it could have made sense, but bringing bindi was an unequal comparison.

I am personally against any such "law" since it encroaches upon one's individual freedom to live their own life and follow their own lifestyles. After all if you claim secular, then leave it upto the individual to decide.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> and what about so many minds that they blow each day?


 
What Minds? Can you be more specific so I can understand?


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## chops3d

there are number of indian members from uae, saudi arab etc etc here, please all these members esp alphamale etc should ask all these indian expets to leave saudi arab which oppresses muslim women to leave this country on principals, if u cant leave the country you curse every day, u deserve to be expellsd from that country, these thankless indians who are being feed by these muslim countries and supporting french burka ban dont deserve to remain there*, dont be hypocrites now indians, leave middle east, go back to india!!!!*


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> Buddy India is not France. We are more than happy with our Muslims. If we have to ban it, we will. Right now I don't see the necessity.
> 
> I am seeing the merit in France decision. Obviously they are worried about terrorism and Muslims integration into their society. We don't have such issues. I am okay with our Muslims integration into our society.


 
Well there are so amny indian members who thought thar Burqa was evil a symbol of opression and praised France for passing this law, if this burqa is synbol of opression then it must be true for indian muslim women as well and India being the largest democracy should also pass the same laws. why do you Indians interpret it one way for france and praise it, and other way for India and do not feel to do the same in India.

Why can't you take a firm stand and decide whether the Burqa is right or wrong? if its right for india, how come you support france against it? or if it is an evil thing and wrong for france, then it must be wrog for India as well. Well france has banned it and all indian members are not only praising it they are also encouraging the whole europe to do the same, then why not do the same in India?


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> don't be naive, I expect some intelligence from you. Burqa is not the only garment where you can hide illegal things, how about under thhe skiet? how about hand bag? normally all handguns legal or illegal are carried in trouser waist, why not ban wearing trousers? how about carrying illegal items in car trunks, let's just ban the vehicles. And criminal don't live on streets they hide in home, lets just dstroy all the homes.
> 
> These are all lame excuses my friend and you are trying very hard to protect the french.


 
So they are waging a war against Islam. Is that what you are saying? Even if so, you are hardly in a position to judge them, don't you think? Even if they claim themselves as champions of freedom of expression you decide if it to be true based on their actions. They are okay with this action and are ready to take the charge for it.


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## Thorough Pro

StingRoy said:


> You should read more about the law before arguing here with a hot head. You could have come up with an argument debating the banning of purdah system (old hindu tradition equivalent to burqa) and it could have made sense, but bringing bindi was an unequal comparison.
> 
> I am personally against any such "law" since it encroaches upon one's individual freedom to live their own life and follow their own lifestyles. After all if you claim secular, then leave it upto the individual to decide.


 
Dude you should read all the previous posts, before commenting yourself.

I appreciate your honesty, at least you have taken a firm stand unlike all other Indian members.


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## chops3d

Burnz said:


> Even India should.


 
yes india should ban burka and guess what, indians must all be banned from livin in middle east muslim countries, what are your thoughts about thatm those millions of poor indians who became rich in saudi arab or dubai must all be expelled and shipped back to poor beggar india, you people can leave muslim lands and go to live in rich india or france what do you uys think??

i think 1,500,000 indians in saudi arab, 1,400,000 indians living in saudia arab and dubai can go and live in france, is it allright?? presently only 330,000 indians live in france

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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> Well there are so amny indian members who thought thar Burqa was evil a symbol of opression and praised France for passing this law, if this burqa is synbol of opression then it must be true for indian muslim women as well and India being the largest democracy should also pass the same laws. why do you Indians interpret it one way for france and praise it, and other way for India and do not feel to do the same in India.
> 
> Why can't you take a firm stand and decide whether the Burqa is right or wrong? if its right for india, how come you support france against it? or if it is an evil thing and wrong for france, then it must be wrog for India as well. Well france has banned it and all indian members are not only praising it they are also encouraging the whole europe to do the same, then why not do the same in India?


 
Buddy again, India is not France. What can't you understand? India had Islam in it for more than millennium. We are more than adjusted to it. We were oppressed but since it has become part of us. France is still relatively new to all this. They would evolve in time. If they don't want to take India's route, more power to them. I won't stand in Judgment.

PS: Even with all that experience India still got partitioned because someone thought they couldn't co-live together in harmony. May be France is avoiding that. I would say wise decision.


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## T-Rex

true_indian said:


> So they are waging a war against Islam. Is that what you are saying? Even if so, you are hardly in a position to judge them, don't you think? Even if they claim themselves as champions of freedom of expression you decide if it to be true based on their actions. They are okay with this action and are ready to take the charge.


 
Your English is poor, the last part of your statement doesn't make any sense, ,may be your over-enthusiasm has fizzled the part of the brain that controls your linguistic. Nobody is about to take charge of anything, it' all about the right to wear whatever one pleases which happens to be a so-called 'western value'. It's strange that the indian government is not passing similar law against the Muslims in India to show its support to the French government.


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> I don't understand, are you all oblivion to happenings of last decade? No longer Islam an exotic religion. It has become synonymous to terrorism. I personally don't agree. But you should be living under the rock if you think otherwise. I don't see moderate Muslims condemning this representation either. So unless things change dramatically see more of the western world taking more of such measures.


 
your comments are funnny. Islam has never been abn exotic religion and it never will be. It requires to surrender onself to Allah's will. It gives you firm guide lines. It prohibits most "Fun" things considered enjoyment these days. It's somewhat difficult to stay on the right track with all the "Fun" going around everywhere.

Islam has nothing to do with terrorism, who equate it either do it out of ignorance, media misguide or for specific purpose lmowingly. Hitler killed millions of jews how come christianity never got associated with terrorism? why they say Nazis killed jews, why don't they say christains killed jews.

And No we do not live under the rock, we clearly understand what is going on in this world.

Read my all posts, my argument is not religion based, its pure logic.

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## true_indian

T-Rex said:


> Your English is poor, the last part of your statement doesn't make any sense, ,may be your over-enthusiasm has fizzled the part of the brain that controls your linguistic. Nobody is about to take charge of anything, it' all about the right to wear whatever one pleases which happens to be a so-called 'western value'. It's strange that the indian government is not passing similar law against the Muslims in India to show its support to the French government.


 
Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it lacks sense. I just made it easy for you, read it again. If you don't understand it even then may be you should revisit your English lessons again.

For the rest of your post, I have already answered it in my previous posts.

PS: English for you

Charge(Noun) - a formal police statement saying that someone is accused of a crime. Or a formal accusation.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> your comments are funnny. Islam has never been abn exotic religion and it never will be. It requires to surrender onself to Allah's will. It gives you firm guide lines. It prohibits most "Fun" things considered enjoyment these days. It's somewhat difficult to stay on the right track with all the "Fun" going around everywhere.
> 
> Islam has nothing to do with terrorism, who equate it either do it out of ignorance, media misguide or for specific purpose lmowingly. Hitler killed millions of jews how come christianity never got associated with terrorism? why they say Nazis killed jews, why don't they say christains killed jews.
> 
> And No we do not live under the rock, we clearly understand what is going on in this world.
> 
> Read my all posts, my argument is not religion based, its pure logic.


 
Yes, but that's not how it is perceived in the western world. And perception is everything. Unless you put counter theories out there and prove them by actions, its not gonna change. Its only Muslims who think Islam is a peaceful religion, why is that?


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> Buddy again, India is not France. What can't you understand? India had Islam in it for more than millennium. We are more than adjusted to it. We were oppressed but since it has become part of us. France is still relatively new to all this. They would evolve in time. If they don't want to take India's route, more power to them. I won't stand in Judgment.
> 
> PS: Even with all that experience India still got partitioned because someone thought they couldn't co-live together in harmony. May be France is avoiding that. I would say wise decision.


 
Either you are not understanding my argument or not trying to. for you informatin, Isalm is not new to france either, many mulim countries had been colonies of france in the past and a very large number of muslims (highest in europe) live and have been living in france for many many years. Even the burqa is not new in france, it is as old as the muslims living thhere which in turn is as old as the oldest muslim colony riled by france.

Hence their so called fear of muslims or burqa is nothing bur nonesence. French give two arguments against burqa.
1. it creates differenciation on the basis of religion. My answer so does the specific dress including the head scarf worn by nuns. and neither is a new thing they both existed in france for hundreds of years, why ban now?

2. It is a symbol of opression. My answer wrong again, infact the law banning it a state sponsored opression, it denies ones basic right to wear a piece of dress. It denies freedom of choice, freedom of expression, freedom of religion.

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## T-Rex

true_indian said:


> Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it lacks sense. I just made it easy for you, read it again. If you don't understand it even then may be you should revisit your English lessons again.
> 
> For the rest of your post, I have already answered it in my previous posts.


 
Why don't you just show how somebody is about to take charge? I'm sure you're not going to do that because that will expose your 'excellent' command over English.


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> Yes, but that's not how it is perceived in the western world. And perception is everything. Unless you put counter theories out there and prove them by actions, its not gonna change. Its only Muslims who think Islam is a peaceful religion, why is that?


 
No one can explain the logic how one perceives a given thing. Just like mass murder of jews is not considered terrorism of christains, the same irrational, inconsistent logic makes them think Isalm is not a religion of peace.

This is not even the crux of discussion.


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## true_indian

T-Rex said:


> Why don't you just show how somebody is about to take charge? I'm sure you're not going to do that because that will expose your 'excellent' command over English.


 
I already did. 

Again.

Charge (Noun): a formal police statement saying that someone is accused of a crime Or a formal accusation.

Now go brush up your English.


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> So they are waging a war against Islam. Is that what you are saying? Even if so, you are hardly in a position to judge them, don't you think? Even if they claim themselves as champions of freedom of expression you decide if it to be true based on their actions. They are okay with this action and are ready to take the charge for it.


 
We are not discussing a war among any religion. the whole discussin is that by passing the law, French have done exactly opposite of what they are saying. 

Tey say Burqa is a symbol of opression, yet the method they use (forceful ban by way of passing a law) they themselvs are denying the women their basic right to choose theor dress. How can they claim that by not giving women freedom to choose their dress they are giging freedom. Nothning can be more contradictory rhan this.


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## T-Rex

true_indian said:


> I already did.
> 
> Again.
> 
> Charge (Noun): a formal police statement saying that someone is accused of a crime Or a formal accusation.
> 
> Now go brush up your English.


 
Listen, it won't be 'take charge' it should be 'bring charge', do you know the difference? Take some lessons in English, I'm pretty sure you'll improve fast.


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## true_indian

Thorough Pro said:


> We are not discussing a war among any religion. the whole discussin is that by passing the law, French have done exactly opposite of what they are saying.
> 
> Tey say Burqa is a symbol of opression, yet the method they use (forceful ban by way of passing a law) they themselvs are denying the women their basic right to choose theor dress. How can they claim that by not giving women freedom to choose their dress they are giging freedom. Nothning can be more contradictory rhan this.


 
Alright I am sorry, I was under wrong impression that they are doing it to integrate Muslims into society. But their reasoning is illogical. I apologize for so much rumbling.


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## true_indian

T-Rex said:


> Listen, it won't be 'take charge' it should be 'bring charge', do you know the difference? Take some lessons in English, I'm pretty sure you'll improve fast.


 


> They are okay with this action and are ready to take the charge for it



Read again. I said they are taking this action fully knowing *accusation/charge associated with it*. And they are ready to* take it*. All of this was implicit in my statement. May be you should take some comprehension lessons as well.


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## T-Rex

true_indian said:


> Read again. I said they are taking this action fully knowing *accusation/charge associated with it*. And they are ready to* take it*. All of this was implicit in my statement. May be you should take some comprehension lessons as well.


 
Then it should be 'face charge' not 'take charge'!

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## true_indian

T-Rex said:


> Then it should be 'face charge' not 'take charge'!


 
Awesome. You are right. Thanks for correcting me. In my defense, I write my posts pretty fast.


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## Thorough Pro

true_indian said:


> Alright I am sorry, I was under wrong impression that they are doing it to integrate Muslims into society. But their reasoning is illogical. I apologize for so much rumbling.


 
No problem, you are most welcome.


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## fallstuff

Thorough Pro said:


> We are not discussing a war among any religion. the whole discussin is that by passing the law, French have done exactly opposite of what they are saying.
> 
> Tey say Burqa is a symbol of opression, yet the method they use (forceful ban by way of passing a law) they themselvs are denying the women their basic right to choose theor dress. How can they claim that by not giving women freedom to choose their dress they are giging freedom. Nothning can be more contradictory rhan this.



There is the spirit of the Law and the letter of the Law. The spirit of the Law this has been an effed up effort to garner vote. It has very little to do with reality. Another fine example of the effed up spirit of the Law is in Oklahoma. In Oklahoma GOP led houses pre-emptively banned Sharia Law in the State of Oklahoma,






The letter of the Law must be respected by everybody, however worthless it maybe.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pathetic Islamphobia .....

Well its stated , if you can't do anything about something unjust the last resort of defiance is an objection of will and morally not agreeing with injustice

Its shameful out leaders are sitting around while this is happening in France -


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## divya

Allow practise of other religons and places of worship in saudi arabia and places like that then talk about hypocrisy of others. 

i guess this is what max belive in and when others start doing same they start crying freedom

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## punit

> but they don't force you to uncover yourself


 
so in france they force to go naked or what ?? and why any one in sane mind will cover his face while going out .


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## chops3d

divya said:


> Allow practise of other religons and places of worship in saudi arabia and places like that then talk about hypocrisy of others.
> 
> i guess this is what max belive in and when others start doing same they start crying freedom


 
so it means france has become saudi arabia, dont talk abt west democracy n freedom from now on, as france = saudi arab


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## chops3d

punit said:


> so in france they force to go naked or what ?? and why any one in sane mind will cover his face while going out .


 
no sane person will no nude in public, esp women, but in west has freedom for removing and wearing cloths, there is not definite dress code


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## divya

chops3d said:


> so it means france has become saudi arabia, dont talk abt west democracy n freedom from now on, as france = saudi arab


 
No one is saying france has become saudi arabia they have not yet banned other religons from france. when you guys are hypocrite why accuse others for the same behaviour....

double standards....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

In good old days the Caliph of Muslim Nation would have declared a stance on such an incident - too bad the moden day leaders are too drunk to protect the right of Muslims 



Shameful , and disgusting that innocent women are being persecuted by Christians in Europe sad sad sad ...

France is really starting to push the envelop

Saudi government is supported by Nato and US , so lets not go there


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## divya

chops3d said:


> no sane person will no nude in public, esp women, but in west has freedom for removing and wearing cloths, there is not definite dress code


 
yeah and all women should breast feed before going out with a person unrelated to her.... thats called sanity...


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## punit

> they also believe in God, Allah is the name we muslims use.



oh really !!! then why malaysians went ape when some translated Allah as god or vice versa.


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## chops3d

divya said:


> No one is saying france has become saudi arabia they have not yet banned other religons from france. when you guys are hypocrite why accuse others for the same behaviour....
> 
> double standards....


 
if we were hypocrites saudis werent allowing hindus in there lands in the first place, how many hindus go to temples and christians go to church anyway, muslims take religion very seriously, so this religious card must have not been played to muslims anyway


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## divya

chops3d said:


> if we were hypocrites saudis werent allowing hindus in there lands in the first place


 
do they allow them practising their religon? do they allow to preach their religon? do they allow traditional hindu dresses for women? 

You guys are so paranoid that even a tv channel is enough to destroy your faith (read indian tv channels and your media reports about it) 

If we go by that logic than in every other country forget burqa muslims should just be allowed but should not be allowed azan or to keep beard or to wear burqa or should not given time to pray during working hours...?

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## chops3d

divya said:


> yeah and all women should breast feed before going out with a person unrelated to her.... thats called sanity...


 
resorting to low level devate arnt you???


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## chops3d

divya said:


> do they allow them practising their religon? do they allow to preach their religon? do they allow traditional hindu dresses for women?
> 
> You guys are so paranoid that even a tv channel is enough to destroy your faith (read indian tv channels and your media reports about it)
> 
> If we go by that logic than in every other country forget burqa muslims should just be allowed but should not be allowed azan or to keep beard or to wear burqa or should not given time to pray during working hours...?


 
how many of you hindus are forced to wear burka by evil muslims in dubai??


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## divya

chops3d said:


> how many of you hindus are forced to wear burka by evil muslims in dubai??



how many muslim women are not allowed to wear burqa in india?

dubai you can run around on beaches... that is the place where your people earn money and plan to earn money after the oil is gone

lets talk saudi arabia?


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## chops3d

divya said:


> how many muslim women are not allowed to wear burqa in india?
> 
> dubai you can run around on beaches... that is the place where your people earn money and plan to earn money after the oil is gone
> 
> lets talk saudi arabia?


 
how many hindus are forced wearing burkas in qatar, oman, kuwait, abu dhabi, behrain, malaysia???

pakistanis are damn scared of your avatar, because the woman is very ugly


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## divya

chops3d said:


> how many hindus are forced wearing burkas in qatar, oman, kuwait, abu dhabi, behrain, malaysia???
> 
> pakistanis are damn scared of your avatar, because the woman is very ugly


 
you should be scared... else you will loose your faith because of such ugly women...

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## divya

chops3d said:


> if we were hypocrites saudis werent allowing hindus in there lands in the first place, how many hindus go to temples and christians go to church anyway, muslims take religion very seriously, so this religious card must have not been played to muslims anyway


 
at least 70% of the hindus you will find in temples on tuesdays and fridays for your information. if not everyone at least one from each family do attend prayers on tuesday. elders in almost all families do not eat without having bath and then prayers....

---------- Post added at 09:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 AM ----------




chops3d said:


> resorting to low level devate arnt you???


 
what low level it was a fatwa from saudi arabia... wasnt it?


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## fallstuff

divya said:


> Allow practise of other religons and places of worship in saudi arabia and places like that then talk about hypocrisy of others.
> 
> i guess this is what max belive in and when others start doing same they start crying freedom


 
What that has to do with the Law in France ? It was not passed based on the Laws in Saudi Arabia. I doubt anywhere in that act it states, "This Act may be repealed or modified provided certain acts are permitted in Saudi Arabia."


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## divya

fallstuff said:


> What that has to do with the Law in France ? It was not passed based on the Laws in Saudi Arabia. I doubt anywhere in that act it states, "This Act may be repealed or modified provided certain acts are permitted in Saudi Arabia."


 
what i meant was how can one point fingers at someone else when one himself is in dirt till neck....


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## Bhushan

*Banning the Burka *

It is bound to come up as an issue now and in the future in western countries &#8211; the wearing of burkas and hijabs. There has been a call from Australian retailers for a ban on the wearing of the full-faced burka for the practical reason that it is harder to identify individual faces when thefts take place. 






Just think of it &#8211; it is surely not possible for a woman wearing a burka to have a driver&#8217;s licence photo with her face covered. Is this an insult Mr Trad? And she would have to show that photo to any policeman who asked for it, if her happened to stop her car on the road, as happens with other ordinary citizens. Is that now to be forbidden too &#8211; different rules for Muslim women? And she would have to show her face on a passport photo &#8211; for surely the Australian Passport office has not reached such depths of lunacy yet, as to include faces of covered women in the section for such photos? So where is the consistency &#8211; insistence of the face shown in some situations, and not in others? 
















If it is a question of veils for nuns, or if Muslim women want to wear a hijab, I would let that pass, but not the burka, the wearing of which is an action which is an affront to the western respect for women [the principle is there and it is enacted in practice, even if not always so]. The burka states principles antithetical to the heart of western values &#8211; that women and men are equal in dignity [showing the face does not impede this in any way] and that as human being we have free will and can choose to behave with decency and are not subject to fits of uncontrollable behaviour, just because a face is shown. These principles of human dignity and free will have long been a part of western thinking and should not be discarded lightly, just because some group has a hissy fit about dressing up.. Muslim migrants should adapt to the west, whose hospitality they enjoy [welfare, public housing, free public schooling, healthcare etc etc] and some basic human decency in face to face gestures and communication should be insisted upon. 

Accept the rules of the country you are living in or just get back to your country,nobody is stopping you.


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## Black Widow

Bhushan said:


> *Banning the Burka *
> 
> It is bound to come up as an issue now and in the future in western countries &#8211; the wearing of burkas and hijabs. There has been a call from Australian retailers for a ban on the wearing of the full-faced burka for the practical reason that it is harder to identify individual faces when thefts take place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just think of it &#8211; it is surely not possible for a woman wearing a burka to have a driver&#8217;s licence photo with her face covered. Is this an insult Mr Trad? And she would have to show that photo to any policeman who asked for it, if her happened to stop her car on the road, as happens with other ordinary citizens. Is that now to be forbidden too &#8211; different rules for Muslim women? And she would have to show her face on a passport photo &#8211; for surely the Australian Passport office has not reached such depths of lunacy yet, as to include faces of covered women in the section for such photos? So where is the consistency &#8211; insistence of the face shown in some situations, and not in others?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it is a question of veils for nuns, or if Muslim women want to wear a hijab, I would let that pass, but not the burka, the wearing of which is an action which is an affront to the western respect for women [the principle is there and it is enacted in practice, even if not always so]. The burka states principles antithetical to the heart of western values &#8211; that women and men are equal in dignity [showing the face does not impede this in any way] and that as human being we have free will and can choose to behave with decency and are not subject to fits of uncontrollable behaviour, just because a face is shown. These principles of human dignity and free will have long been a part of western thinking and should not be discarded lightly, just because some group has a hissy fit about dressing up.. Muslim migrants should adapt to the west, whose hospitality they enjoy [welfare, public housing, free public schooling, healthcare etc etc] and some basic human decency in face to face gestures and communication should be insisted upon.
> 
> *Accept the rules of the country you are living in or just get back to your country,nobody is stopping you.*



good one...


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## fallstuff

divya said:


> what i meant was how can one point fingers at someone else when *one himself is in dirt till neck*....


 
Who is the one himself ? 

*Valid discussions about the Law is,*


1) Does it contradict French constitution ?

2) What if a women covering her face is praying at a mosque ? (Under French Law, a mosque is a public place) 

3) Police agent provocateurs use mask or scarf to cover their faces. ( it becomes illegal)

4) What happens when protesters wear masks ?( wto protests)

5) Wives of the Arab kings and the Ministers in Burqa ? ( cops going to haul Mrs. of Saudi kings or Ministers to jail )

6) A Law may supposedly help a 1000 women, but impedes on the right of every French individual.


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## jayron

fallstuff said:


> Who is the one himself ?
> 
> *Valid discussions about the Law is,*
> 
> 
> 1) Does it contradict French constitution ?
> 
> 2) What if a women covering her face is praying at a mosque ? (Under French Law, a mosque is a public place)
> 
> 3) Police agent provocateurs use mask or scarf to cover their faces. ( it becomes illegal)
> 
> 4) What happens when protesters wear masks ?( wto protests)
> 
> 5) Wives of the Arab kings and the Ministers in Burqa ? ( cops going to haul Mrs. of Saudi kings or Ministers to jail )
> 
> 6) A Law may supposedly help a 1000 women, but impedes on the right of every French individual.


 
Lets talk about what you care. Diplomats will deal with an Arab King's wife. 
The is directed against the Islamic veil. You don't have to think of weird situations to prove your logic.


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## fallstuff

*Article 9  Freedom of thought, conscience and religion*

*1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, and to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.*

*2. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.*

Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## prototype

fallstuff said:


> Who is the one himself ?
> 
> *Valid discussions about the Law is,*
> 
> 
> 1) Does it contradict French constitution ?



I think now this is itself a part of French constitution.



fallstuff said:


> 2) What if a women covering her face is praying at a mosque ? (Under French Law, a mosque is a public place)



They already stated that,no confinement in case of religious places,vehicles and private properties.



fallstuff said:


> 3) Police agent provocateurs use mask or scarf to cover their faces. ( it becomes illegal)



Agent provocateur are controlled by govt themselves,so according to u even FORFUSCO cannot wear mask,clearly u should be able to distinguish the following[/QUOTE]



fallstuff said:


> 4) What happens when protesters wear masks ?( wto protests)



The law is enforced itself to dissuade from such acts.



fallstuff said:


> 5) Wives of the Arab kings and the Ministers in Burqa ? ( cops going to haul Mrs. of Saudi kings or Ministers to jail )



Hmmm,so is this law also applicable to foreign dignitaries,or only french citizens?



fallstuff said:


> 6) A Law may supposedly help a 1000 women, but impedes on the right of every French individual.


 
How?


----------



## fallstuff

jayron said:


> *Lets talk about what you care.* Diplomats will deal with an Arab King's wife.
> The is directed against the Islamic veil. *You don't have to think of weird situations to prove your logic*.


 
What do you mean by what I care ? 

The Law does not talk about religion. Burqa has nothing to do with Islam. The issue is individual rights. 

There is nothing wired about your rights. If you don't understand these issues, educate yourself.


----------



## tallboy123

Well,France has done a awesome job by this law,Muslim women in France can live without covering their face and *can wear colorful dress* rather than that same old black dress everywhere they go.. and can live like other women and cannot be supressed..

French muslim women welcome to Colorful world and 21st century...

So if one wants to see Muslim women in color full dress,pack ur bags to France.....


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## Markus

France has done the right thing.

Muslims should stop playing the minority card and accept the law of the land where they are living.


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## T-Rex

divya said:


> No one is saying france has become saudi arabia they have not yet banned other religons from france. when you guys are hypocrite why accuse others for the same behaviour....
> 
> double standards....


 
There are thousands of indian Hindus working in Saudi Arabia, do they not practice Hinduism or have they all converted to Islam for the sake of their jobs? Your hypocrisy knows no bound!


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## jayron

fallstuff said:


> What do you mean by what I care ?
> 
> The Law does not talk about religion. Burqa has nothing to do with Islam. The issue is individual rights.
> 
> There is nothing wired about your rights. If you don't understand these issues, educate yourself.


 
Hooligans cover their faces during protests to safeguard themselves from law. By comparing them to burqa wearing women, you are not justifying burqua.

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## prototype

T-Rex said:


> There are thousands of indian Hindus working in Saudi Arabia, do they not practice Hinduism or have they all converted to Islam for the sake of their jobs? Your hypocrisy knows no bound!


 


> *As a matter of policy, the Government guarantees and protects the right to private worship for all, including non-Muslims who gather in homes for religious practice; however, this right is not always respected in practice and is not defined in law. Moreover, the public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited.*



I think this is all what she meant.


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## jayron

T-Rex said:


> There are thousands of indian Hindus working in Saudi Arabia, do they not practice Hinduism or have they all converted to Islam for the sake of their jobs? Your hypocrisy knows no bound!


 
No other religion can build places of worship in Saudi Arabia except for islam.


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## fallstuff

prototype said:


> I think now this is itself a part of French constitution.
> 
> 
> 
> They already stated that,no confinement in case of religious places,vehicles and private properties.
> 
> 
> 
> Agent provocateur are controlled by govt themselves,so according to u even FORFUSCO cannot wear mask,clearly u should be able to distinguish the following





The law is enforced itself to dissuade from such acts.



Hmmm,so is this law also applicable to foreign dignitaries,or only french citizens?



How?[/QUOTE]

A Constitution is the authority that gives the Legislature the power to enact a Statute.

A Statute is what the Legislature creates in the house or parliament. Such as "The Burqa Act."



That is the contradiction. French Law defines church and Mosques as public places.

This Law will hinder police activities.


Your right to protest is a fundamental right. Police do use facial recognition software to ID and target protesters.



It shouldn't matter dignitaries or not. If your are on France, the Law applies to you, can't be selective unless the Statue provides for.

It is estimated between 350 and 2000 women probably wear Burqa. Lets take a middle number 1000, this includes women who are forced and those who are not forced. Even if a man wants to cover his face, he can't. 



*What about Halloween parties that are held in clubs* ? If folks at these parties are not charged, then you have an issue of discrimination.


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## tallboy123

fallstuff said:


> The law is enforced itself to dissuade from such acts.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm,so is this law also applicable to foreign dignitaries,or only french citizens?
> 
> 
> 
> How?
> 
> A Constitution is the authority that gives the Legislature the power to enact a Statute.
> 
> A Statute is what the Legislature creates in the house or parliament. Such as "The Burqa Act."
> 
> 
> 
> That is the contradiction. French Law defines church and Mosques as public places.
> 
> This Law will hinder police activities.
> 
> 
> Your right to protest is a fundamental right. Police do use facial recognition software to ID and target protesters.
> 
> 
> 
> It shouldn't matter dignitaries or not. If your are on France, the Law applies to you, can't be selective unless the Statue provides for.
> 
> It is estimated between 350 and 2000 women probably wear Burqa. Lets take a middle number 1000, this includes women who are forced and those who are not forced. Even if a man wants to cover his face, he can't.
> 
> 
> 
> *What about Halloween parties that are held in clubs* ? If folks at these parties are not charged, then you have an issue of discrimination.



that's a party dude......they don't wear mask all day long...every where they go..... its for a change....


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## fallstuff

jayron said:


> Hooligans cover their faces during protests to safeguard themselves from law. By comparing them to burqa wearing women, you are not justifying burqua.


 
My points are the complexities associated with these kinds of legislation. 

Protesters have been targeted since the days of Vietnam war.


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## tallboy123

Guys majority of Muslim population is in FRANCE...they have 6 million muslims
*so tell me how many women came out with hijab yesterday to protest???????*
Only 2????
wat happened to rest of women..????

it shows even Muslim women wants freedom from black dress and want to be colorful and live like others


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## fallstuff

tallboy123 said:


> that's a party dude......they don't wear mask all day long...every where they go..... its for a change....


 
The issue is covering your face in a public place with regards to public safety. There are more party goers in Mask then they will ever have women in Burqa for 10 years.


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## tallboy123

tallboy123 said:


> Guys majority of Muslim population is in FRANCE...they have 6 million muslims
> *so tell me how many women came out with hijab yesterday to protest???????*
> Only 2????
> wat happened to rest of women..????
> 
> it shows even Muslim women wants freedom from black dress and want to be colorful and live like others


 
Fallstuff can u answer this????


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## Kompromat

French are lunatics , i can tell its going to blast in their face.

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## punit

> how many hindus go to temples and christians go to church anyway



at least a billion ... and since when wearing ninja dress aka burka beacme a part of Islam.

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## fallstuff

tallboy123 said:


> Fallstuff can u answer this????


 
Well I just didn't see the co-relation between the popularity ( or the lack of it) of Burqa law and number of protesters. Seeing a Burqa in France is a rare sight ( also in Dhaka). So its not unusual that only a few protester wearing Burqa showed up

There are only 350 to 2000 women wear Burqa in France. It is more popular in converts. Here is a report by French Police,



> *Burka use in France a 'marginal phenomenon': report*
> 
> *Two French police intelligence agencies have issued reports calling burka use in the country a "marginal phenomenon," one of which claimed fewer than 400 women wear the full-body covering, national media reported.*
> 
> The wearing of burkas &#8212; all-concealing traditional dresses, with built-in mesh covering the eyes &#8212; has been a controversial issue in France. French legislators have pondered banning the use of burkas and niqabs, full-face veils that ,unlike burqas, do no not obscure use of the wearer's eyes altogether.
> 
> President Nicolas Sarkozy has called the burka "a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement."
> 
> French newspaper Le Monde reported that two police intelligence reports written earlier this month suggested few Muslim women wear burkas.
> 
> *One of the reports, released by French intelligence agency Sous-direction de l'information générale, found only 367 women in France wear the burka. But the report does not claim that number is a comprehensive figure, and urges further study into the issue, Le Monde reported.*
> 
> A committee of 32 legislators from all four major political parties in the National Assembly, the lower house of parliament, is expected to deliver its report on whether burkas should be banned by the end of the year.
> 
> About five million Muslims live in France, home to western Europe's largest population of Muslims.
> 
> 
> With files from The Associated Press
> 
> 
> Burka use in France a 'marginal phenomenon': report - World - CBC News


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## fallstuff

*Burka use in France a 'marginal phenomenon': report*

*Two French police intelligence agencies have issued reports calling burka use in the country a "marginal phenomenon," one of which claimed fewer than 400 women wear the full-body covering, national media reported.*

The wearing of burkas  all-concealing traditional dresses, with built-in mesh covering the eyes  has been a controversial issue in France. French legislators have pondered banning the use of burkas and niqabs, full-face veils that ,unlike burqas, do no not obscure use of the wearer's eyes altogether.

President Nicolas Sarkozy has called the burka "a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement."

French newspaper Le Monde reported that two police intelligence reports written earlier this month suggested few Muslim women wear burkas.

*One of the reports, released by French intelligence agency Sous-direction de l'information générale, found only 367 women in France wear the burka. But the report does not claim that number is a comprehensive figure, and urges further study into the issue, Le Monde reported.*

A committee of 32 legislators from all four major political parties in the National Assembly, the lower house of parliament, is expected to deliver its report on whether burkas should be banned by the end of the year.

About five million Muslims live in France, home to western Europe's largest population of Muslims.


With files from The Associated Press


Burka use in France a 'marginal phenomenon': report - World - CBC News


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## Black Widow

Thorough Pro said:


> Sick. so much for their human rights, liberty and freedom. they are happy with their sisters and daughters going around naked. Proof enough that they not only have no moral values, they don't even have any respect for personal freedom. This is the outcome when the whole society is born out of wedlock. Bastards have no respect for anyone.


 
dude what is naked for you is not naked for them.... there cultural values are different than ours', I have seen many indian criticizing there life style... but the question is , is it worth to bash them ??? they are not saying you muslim or hindu to being naked.. they are just asking not to show of religious identities publicly... 

and the truth is Europe and America are Cristians' land.. Muslim and hindu can't ask right to their ritual at their land... and if you have problem , then there are 40 countries for Muslim and 3 countries for hindu where they can do their rituals...  

Stop complaining...


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## JonAsad

tallboy123 said:


> Guys majority of Muslim population is in FRANCE...they have 6 million muslims
> *so tell me how many women came out with hijab yesterday to protest???????*
> Only 2????
> wat happened to rest of women..????
> 
> it shows even Muslim women wants freedom from black dress and want to be colorful and live like others


 
It also shows that majority of Muslim women in consent with their families have given in to the unfair and medieval law that has been wrongly placed on them- They dont want any confrontation with the authorities and have decided to obey the law-

But that doesn't validate the law which suppress their religious freedom-


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## desioptimist

Glorious Resolve said:


> It also shows that majority of Muslim women in consent with their families have given in to the unfair and medieval law that has been wrongly placed on them- They dont want any confrontation with the authorities and have decided to obey the law-
> 
> But that doesn't validate the law which suppress their religious freedom-


 
There are many women who support the law and many who oppose it. The strictest of the measure is for those who force others to wear face veil. Again, you CAN wear any dress and head gear, but cant cover the face.
Although french have their own reason(some say politics), and would fail eventually, it is nice to see so many muslims supporting it too. Instead of fine, compulsory counselling is much better and less offensive.
I know in a Indian city, where helmets were made compulsory. Those who were caught without it, the only thing they hated was the counselling, which involved watching some insanely boring videos. People were prepared to pay fine than watch it.


----------



## desioptimist

Thorough Pro said:


> So, now the stance is changed, just a little while ago every Indian menber was back patting the french and encouraging the europe to do the same, while India itseld does not have to courage to ban the same kind of religious outfits.
> 
> Second part. If that muslim woman wants to go into a shell and not integrate with french society, its her own choice who are we to force her by making a law. Are'nt Indian widows forced to go into shell and not integrate with society? Arnet these widows forced to wear only white Sari for the rest of their life? Are'nt these widows forced ot to wear jewlery, sellp on the floor and never attend a wedding cersmoney? Why don't you In dina smake lawas against these victims who are forced against their will. why are these widows never allowed to re-marry? don't just encourage french, thhere is alot to be done at home.
> 
> Why not ban the turbans worn by Sikhs, or Yellow dresses byworn by Gurmukhi's or the same niqab worn by muslim women.
> 
> It's not about how many women wear Burqa, even if it is only one woman in the whole of France, it is her basic birth right to choose whatever she likes to wear. and it is not even offensive.
> 
> The ironey is these same western civilizations and their judicial system blames their own "liberated" free women when they are rpaed becuase they were wearing the modern dresses that their civilization is so famouds for. Just recently here in north america a police representative while speaking in a university said to avoid the risk of rape women should not dress like a slut. This is their own honest opinion abou the dresses their women wear. If they cant provide justice to their own women following thier own modern liberated ways, what right do they have to object to Burqa or Niqab.


 
I do not represent any side of argument. Argue with me with the points I have raised, not by lumping me with others who may have similar view.

Ban is on on niqab. Niqab is not offensive to us who have seen it in our country since childhood. In france it is new. They have come to realize that it hinders the communication.
All other things you said are wrong too, and I will support french ban on anybody forcing widows to wear white saree.
It is difficult to ban it in India, but just because we cant do it does not mean we should oppose it.

There is no correlation between rape and revealing dress in western society. It could be in south asia, where women wearing such dress seem to indicate they are "inviting" others(in some male minds)


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## Soumitra

Thorough Pro said:


> but they don't force you to uncover yourself. Driving is a different issue altogether. btw before talking about Saudis take a look inside your own country and culture, where widows are forced against their will to wear only specific dress for the rest of their lives and forced not to wear jewlery, etc. and I am talking about real life not bollywood movies.


 





This is real life not Bollywood. And mind you this poor oppressed widow is the most powerful woman in India


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## Soumitra

I dont understand that whenever there is a debate regarding Burqa why do muslims start talking about roaming naked or in Bikinis? Have you not seen any other dress for woman?

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## Roybot

Polls | Mail Online||Should UK have a burka ban like France.


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## blackops

I would be happy if it is baned in india to and really i dont see many womens covering there faces these days so it should not be a problem when young muslim girls can wear skirts then then there would be no problem


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## Developereo

Here we go again....

Why is it that whenever there is anything anti-Muslim or anti-Islam anywhere in the world, certain Indians come out in force against Muslims?

Always.

Without exception.

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## alphamale

Developereo said:


> Here we go again....
> 
> Why is it that whenever there is anything anti-Muslim or anti-Islam anywhere in the world, the Indians come out in force against Muslims?
> 
> Always.
> 
> Without exception.
> 
> It really gives us a crystal clear window into the rabid anti-Muslim bigotry that sits just below the surface in India.


 
do not generalize Indians on this one issue, only objection is against niqab not hijab. indians have no problem with muslims wearing hijab, males wearing salwar kammez or wearing cap or sporting beard etc etc etc

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## Developereo

alphamale said:


> do not generalize Indians on this one issue, only objection is against niqab not hijab. indians have no problem with muslims wearing hijab, males wearing salwar kammez or wearing cap or sporting beard etc etc etc


 
I edited my post in deference to the handful of Indians whom I respect.

But the fact remains that a large troll brigade always supports any action against Muslims -- whether it's Israel, France, or whatever. It's got nothing to do with niqab, hijab or beards. The Indian troll brigade is guaranteed to support the anti-Muslim view.

Every time.


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## Doctor09

its not about burqa or hijab.................its about islam and muslims........why in Europe almost every country is trying to interfere in only muslims matters i.e mosques and burqa or hijab..............they are doing it for purpose and everyone knows it what they want from it......they are so called democracies and full of hate against ISLAM......they talk about freedom of speech and freedom of person they talk about harmony among religion but their actions are opposite to it

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## notsuperstitious

Developereo said:


> Here we go again....
> 
> Why is it that whenever there is anything anti-Muslim or anti-Islam anywhere in the world, certain Indians come out in force against Muslims?
> 
> Always.
> 
> Without exception.


 
Here we go again, the same tirade against Indians...

Talk on topic please.

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## Developereo

fateh71 said:


> Here we go again, the same tirade against Indians...
> 
> Talk on topic please.


 
I have nothing to say to you or your comrades in the troll brigade. When it comes to Muslims, your views and opinions and predictable, and there is no point discussing anything with people whose views are predictable.

This is my last post in this thread. Carry on...


----------



## Bharat_singh

doctor09 said:


> its not about burqa or hijab.................its about islam and muslims........why in Europe almost every country is trying to interfere in only muslims matters i.e mosques and burqa or hijab..............they are doing it for purpose and everyone knows it what they want from it......they are so called democracies and full of hate against ISLAM......they talk about freedom of speech and freedom of person they talk about harmony among religion but their actions are opposite to it


 
*******************


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## notsuperstitious

Developereo said:


> I have nothing to say to you or your comrades in the troll brigade. When it comes to Muslims, your views and opinions and predictable, and there is no point discussing anything with people whose views are predictable.
> 
> This is my last post in this thread. Carry on...


 
You came to this thread to comment on Indians? I suppose that makes YOU the troll!

Seriously your Indophobia is incurable.

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## relativiti

chops3d said:


> yes india should ban burka and guess what, indians must all be banned from livin in middle east muslim countries, what are your thoughts about thatm those millions of poor indians who became rich in saudi arab or dubai must all be expelled and shipped back to poor beggar india, you people can leave muslim lands and go to live in rich india or france what do you uys think??
> 
> i think 1,500,000 indians in saudi arab, 1,400,000 indians living in saudia arab and dubai can go and live in france, is it allright?? presently only 330,000 indians live in france


 
Don't talk B.S. If we had oil or the scope of huge employment none of the indians you mentioned would leave their mother land. Middle east is only the last resort. Do you think they like to go to such oppressive places on their own where you cannot practice your own faith or cannot hold your wife's hand in public???


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## Haseebullah

Burnz said:


> Even India should.


 
So much for your secularism.


----------



## TEXAS BATTLESTAR

Black Widow said:


> dude what is naked for you is not naked for them.... there cultural values are different than ours', I have seen many indian criticizing there life style... but the question is , is it worth to bash them ??? they are not saying you muslim or hindu to being naked.. they are just asking not to show of religious identities publicly...
> 
> and the truth is Europe and America are Cristians' land.. Muslim and hindu can't ask right to their ritual at their land... and if you have problem , then there are 40 countries for Muslim and 3 countries for hindu where they can do their rituals...
> 
> Stop complaining...


 
True, but it is the European and American that advertises "Freedom of Religion" (that means everything of that religion practice) so what's up with the b.s. and change of attitude and laws to fit with the popular (not majority) trend of hate? Either go all out freedom of religion or none at all.


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## fawwaxs




----------



## milvipes

Euro hypocracy to the max.


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## Raja.Pakistani

How France is different than dictatorship, Why a country should dictate its citizen what they must wear and what they cannot wear. Its pathetic to take the right from peoples to wear whatever they prefer to wear according to their beliefs

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## brahmastra

^^ how is that dictatorship.

read the French revolution.
They burnt down every 'cross' in their country.
'no religious identity' is one of the base of their revolution and also base of their constitution.
Do you want them to break that pillar just because few immigrants don't like it?

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## iPakMan

Raja.Pakistani said:


> How France is different than dictatorship, Why a country should dictate its citizen what they must wear and what they cannot wear. Its pathetic to take the right from peoples to wear whatever they prefer to wear according to their beliefs


 
They are afraid. So is the UK, Germany and the entire European continent. They are afraid Christianity, eventually, will become a minority.
A lot if not most Muslims refuse to integrate in the societies they live and adopt their way of life. The more Muslims that come the more their way of life clashes with the country`s way of life. They are desperately trying to prevent this and forcefully make Muslims integrate and adopt European values.


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## AUz

iPakMan said:


> They are afraid. So is the UK, Germany and the entire European continent. *They are afraid Christianity, eventually, will become a minority.*




hahaha Christianity will become a minority? It will never happen any time soon and more over Christianity is already kinda 'dead' ideology in Europe..No one even cares about religion in WEST anymore..


----------



## iPakMan

AUz said:


> [/B]
> 
> hahaha Christianity will become a minority? It will never happen any time soon and more over Christianity is already kinda 'dead' ideology in Europe..No one even cares about religion in WEST anymore..


 
Yeah i added more to my post. Christianity statistically, will become a minority by 2050. That has been proven to be true if current trends continue.
Europe is defacto Atheist but their core values come from Judeo-Christian traditions, it is a literal hellhole for Multiculturist left fanatics that welcome all immigrants with open arms.


----------



## jdme

Haseebullah said:


> So much for your secularism.


 
Secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Never mind that you don't understand what that is..

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## jdme

doctor09 said:


> its not about burqa or hijab.................its about islam and muslims........why in Europe almost every country is trying to interfere in only muslims matters i.e mosques and burqa or hijab..............they are doing it for purpose and everyone knows it what they want from it......they are so called democracies and full of hate against ISLAM......they talk about freedom of speech and freedom of person they talk about harmony among religion but their actions are opposite to it



Isn't that obvious? Muslims are the least compatible people and even after 2rd/3rd generation they maintain cultural/values that is in stark contrast to host nation. In simple terms, they simply fail to assimilate. The y are trying to Europe into Arabia which simply cannot be tolerated.

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## jdme

Developereo said:


> I edited my post in deference to the handful of Indians whom I respect.
> 
> But the fact remains that a large troll brigade always supports any action against Muslims -- whether it's Israel, France, or whatever. It's got nothing to do with niqab, hijab or beards. The Indian troll brigade is guaranteed to support the anti-Muslim view.
> 
> Every time.


 
Silly me! Action has been taken against *ALL* religions. Muslims are the only one making noise and making it sound like it's all about them.


----------



## BelligerentPacifist

brahmastra said:


> ^^ how is that dictatorship.
> 
> read the French revolution.
> They burnt down every 'cross' in their country.
> *'no religious identity' is one of the base of their revolution* and also base of their constitution.
> Do you want them to break that pillar just because few immigrants don't like it?


You're mistaken it isn't. The motto of the French republic is "egalité fraternité liberté". Not only does "laïcité" not figure in there, more importantly "fraternité" is a concept taken out of the Christian tradition. Hence some peoples' theoretic objection to it.


----------



## jdme

Raja.Pakistani said:


> How France is different than dictatorship, Why a country should dictate its citizen what they must wear and what they cannot wear. Its pathetic to take the right from peoples to wear whatever they prefer to wear according to their beliefs


 
Don't worry. Same law is coming to UK too.


----------



## BelligerentPacifist

iPakMan said:


> Why does everything bad have to end with "Inshallah"? And what if Allah doesn`t will it, then what?
> Good for the french.


Are you unfamiliar with the story of Solomon PBUH and his once forgetting to say inshaAllaah?


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## jdme

iPakMan said:


> *They are afraid. So is the UK, Germany and the entire European continent. They are afraid Christianity, eventually, will become a minority.*
> A lot if not most Muslims refuse to integrate in the societies they live and adopt their way of life. The more Muslims that come the more their way of life clashes with the country`s way of life. They are desperately trying to prevent this and forcefully make Muslims integrate and adopt European values.


 
Their fear goes deeper than that.


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## BelligerentPacifist

iPakMan said:


> ...
> Europe ... their core values come from Judeo-Christian traditions,...


How can that be case when Jews were chased after in Europe since thousands of years ago to about a mere seventy counting back from now? It is and will be the Greco-Roman civilisation. They shredded and battered Christianity to fit their own culture, and you shouldn't be proud but alarmed that they have now added Judeo- to the equation.


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## Majnun

I am not against the ban. I can't say that I am in favour of the ban, but I am definitely against those hypocritical Muslims criticizing it.

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## iPakMan

BelligerentPacifist said:


> How can that be case when Jews were chased after in Europe since thousands of years ago to about a mere seventy counting back from now? It is and will be the Greco-Roman civilisation. They shredded and battered Christianity to fit their own culture, and you shouldn't be proud but alarmed that they have now added Judeo- to the equation.



I am neither proud nor care what they call themselves nowadays, it just happens to be their choice of words after persecuting Jews for centuries. European countries deserve exactly what they are getting if you ask me. I know one thing though, islamiphobia will grow to much larger scales in the years to come.
And Solomon, did not ever say Inshallah because Solomon was Jewish. In the Qoran, he might have, but in reality... he didn`t.

---------- Post added at 04:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 AM ----------




jdme said:


> Their fear goes deeper than that.


I am aware of that, that is their problem. I have no love for European countries.


----------



## jdme

BelligerentPacifist said:


> *How can that be case when Jews were chased after in Europe since thousands of years ago to about a mere seventy counting back from now? * It is and will be the Greco-Roman civilisation. They shredded and battered Christianity to fit their own culture, and you shouldn't be proud but alarmed that they have now added Judeo- to the equation.


 
Easy. Just read the Bible..oops..nvrmind...


----------



## 1 ummah

*They will spare nothing to ruin you; they yearn for what makes you suffer. Hatred has been expressed by their mouths, but what their hearts conceal is still greater. Thus have We made clear to you the revelations (or signs), if you possess understanding. Ah! You love them, but they do not love* you....(3:118-119)


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## Raja.Pakistani

brahmastra said:


> read the French revolution.
> They burnt down every 'cross' in their country.
> 'no religious identity' is one of the base of their revolution and also base of their constitution.
> Do you want them to break that pillar just because few immigrants don't like it?


 
If they claim to be a secular country then they should allow peoples from different religions to wear their religious symbol or should allow them to practice teachings of their religion as long as these religious practices don't harm any other person in society. Telling someone what to wear and what not to wear is oppression. Another evil show of democartic oppression of minorities and a war against women.

I don't know how wearing hijab or cross hurt any other person. It is not right for state to dictate peoples what they can wear and what they cannot. its peoples personal choice to wear whatever they want to wear. Just like women are free to wear bikini in west they should be free to wear veil. what will come next then ..peoples should not be allowed to offer prayers or keep fasting because French constitution consider them as useless things. Constitution should be there to protect the right of peoples


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## Raja.Pakistani

jdme said:


> Don't worry. Same law is coming to UK too.


 
Will you introduce this law in uk?


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## 53fd

Tbh, I'm not against this ban, especially with the high security risk in the world today. I personally believe the Niqab is un-Islamic, & people who do that don't represent Islam the way it should be.


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## Raja.Pakistani

bilalhaider said:


> Tbh, I'm not against this ban, especially when there is a higher security risk in the world today. I also believe the Niqab is un-Islamic, & people who do that don't represent Islam the way it should be.


 
I dont think that any burqa was ever used for suicide attacks . so next we will not be allowed to wear jacket because there may be a bomb inside jacket lol Its your personal assumption that Niqab is unislamic but those who wear it for religious reasons they find it islamic.. dont forget that peoples have different interpretation of parda so we should not impose our interpretation on others...


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## 53fd

Raja.Pakistani said:


> I dont think that any burqa was ever used for suicide attacks . so next we will not be allowed to wear jacket because there may be a bomb inside jacket lol Its your personal assumption that Niqab is unislamic but those who wear it for religious reasons they find it islamic.. dont forget that peoples have different interpretation of parda so we should not impose our interpretation on others...


 
It is my personal opinion, & I am not imposing it on anyone. There are plenty of religious clerics who say the Niqab is un-Islamic, while there are plenty of clerics that say it's Islamic as well. However, you tell me, why are Muslim women not obligated to cover their faces when they read Namaz or perform Hajj?


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## Raja.Pakistani

bilalhaider said:


> It is my personal opinion, & I am not imposing it on anyone. There are plenty of religious clerics who say the Niqab is un-Islamic, while plenty of clerics that say it's Islamic as well. However, you tell me, why are women not obligated to cover their faces when they read Namaz?



You are imposing it when you said peoples who wear niqaab dont represent islam? Where did you get this from? Even if according to you they don't represent islam but still you have no right to judge their intentions for which they choose to wear niqab. Who know they may wear niqab to please ALLAH?

what you are talking about is minimum requirement of hijab which is obligatory for muslim women i.e covering their body except face; hands and feet etc if woman wear burqa she still satisfy all these requirement so why you think it is unislamic?

is it obligatory to show ur face in islam?


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## T-Rex

jayron said:


> No other religion can build places of worship in Saudi Arabia except for islam.


 
Saudia Arabia is the Vatican City of the Muslim World. Can you have a Hindu Temple in Vatican City? Why there's no fuss about that?


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## T-Rex

jdme said:


> Secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Never mind that you don't understand what that is..


 
He knows what it is but the problem is when you're confronted with the hypocrisy associated with it you twist it to fit your designs.


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## 53fd

Raja.Pakistani said:


> You are imposing it when you said peoples who wear niqaab dont represent islam? Where did you get this from? Even if ccording to you they don't represent islam but still you have no right to judge their intentions for which they choose to wear niqab. Who know they may wear niqab to please ALLAH?



I was saying it is my personal belief that people who wear niqaab do not represent Islam in the right way, & I stand by my opinion. A lot of people do a lot of things to please Allah, doesn't mean Allah is necessarily pleased by their actions. Let Allah be the Judge, Allah knows the best. I'm not judging, but just giving my personal opinion. No need to take offense from my statements, it's just my opinion.



> what you are talking about is minimum requirement of hijab which is obligatory for muslim women i.e covering their body except face; hands and feet etc if someone wear burqa she still statisfy all these requirement so why you think it unislamic?


 
Islam is about moderation, about modesty & not standing out & attracting unwanted attention from others. Women in veils do not observe modesty, but stand out like a sore thumb in public & attract everyone's attention when they dress like that. Islam has also commanded Muslims to abide by the laws of the country they reside in, to be useful citizens & work for the betterment of the society. The veil doesn't help women do any of that. If Muslim women feel hard done by the laws of the country that has banned the Niqaab are always free to relocate to Saudi Arabia or some other country to please Allah.


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## Roybot

[










Eh surely seeing protests like these have no effect on the psyche of Europeans? Show me any other any other religious group which does protests like these in foreign or even their own countries.

These "radical Islamists" are the major reason for the rising Islamophobia.

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## T-Rex

jdme said:


> Silly me! Action has been taken against *ALL* religions. Muslims are the only one making noise and making it sound like it's all about them.


 
Really, have the nuns been told to wear bikinis?


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## Raja.Pakistani

^ I think when you left it for Allah to judge their actions based on their intentions then there is nothing left for us to comment on their act of wearing Niqab as Islamic or non Islamic. 

Dude for many peoples you are not moderate unless you behave and act like them so even if some muslim women will start wearing hijab rather than niqab then for many western peoples they will still not be considered as moderate or liberal. I don't know how wearing specific dress code stop women working for the betterment of society. Cannot you work for the betterment of society after wearing extra piece of clothe? Again your logic is flaw so next you will say that every muslim should move to islamic country if religion get ban in western country which dont make any sense at all

Everyone should have right to live his/her life according to his own perception of right or wrong and peoples should not live their life according to expectations of others. western women have choice to wear less clothe and then muslim women should have same right to wear whatever they choose to wear

This topic is not about niqab being Islamic or non Islamic. Its about choice of wearing whatever you like to wear which is the basic right of every individual


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## Raja.Pakistani

Burnz said:


> Even India should.


 
what about ban on dhoti or turban?


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## Raja.Pakistani

divya said:


> No one is saying france has become saudi arabia they have not yet banned other religons from france. when you guys are hypocrite why accuse others for the same behaviour....
> 
> double standards....



I dont think its right to compare theocratic state with secular. There would not be any objection or protest if France was a theocratic state who would have derived this law against burqa from teaching of their religion.

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## Raja.Pakistani

StingRoy said:


> I say make one rule for all .. ban everything everywhere ... go back to stone age


 
yes in stone age shy peoples like me covered themselves with leaf of banana


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## harun786

It is a good move i think BY France, and i think every Muslim living in FRANCE should follow it because it is a rule of that country, and If we don't like , then we should either move back to our home country or MOVE TO a country which only follows Muslim law. 

Stop this double std. 

The Saudis don't allow a church or a temple to be built in their country, nor does Malaysia or in fact any other muslim country including Pakistan, then why should we protest or oppose it in any other country.They have their right, If we like it then we should stay or else move out.

We should respect other country law and abide by them and not take to the streets and protest. This is all giving a wrong impression of Islam

H

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## Abu Zolfiqar

it's their country

they can do whatever they want to do

we have no locus-standi over their local laws and internal affairs

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## harun786

Abu I totally agree with you. These type of behavior has given Muslim and Islam a bad name. If we really want to rule the world then we need to be flexible and tolerant to people feeling and alot needs to be understood about other religions wants and feeling .Or else forget about ruling the world. We will be named as terrorist.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Well this topic seems to open a pandoras box for a free-thinker.


On one hand, woman or anyone should have a right to adorn themselves however they want --as long as it isn't offensive to others. French parliament terms burqa/niqab as socially unacceptable and a threat to their secularism. We can argue the reasons from dawn till dusk; at the end of the day --it's their law. 

Respect it, or leave. 

And allow me to be even more frank by posing a question.

Where is it mandated in the religion that woman must cover herself head to toe?

Racism is rampant in many parts of the 'secular' EU countries some of the Muslim diaspora also don't make enough efforts to integrate. Integrate doesnt mean popping bottles of wine and wearing miniskirts; it doesnt mean guys must gel their hair and talk in gay accents; it simply means making the extra effort to reach out to locals and be more open to engaging in people to people contact --instead of staying in their enclaves. 

lastly, if a woman GENUINELY wants to wear a niqab (not out of pressure or hidden coercion) then by all means they can do it. I personally think it's totally un-necessary. To me the woman is a sign of beauty --her face, her hair, everything. They are bearers of life. They must show themselves. If they are compelled to keep their ''gaze'' down -- then maybe its guys who should do the same as well, and not be scumbags. 

I wonder about how the male gaze determines what is socially acceptable for women. In France now, you can't leave the house if you cover your face, but if you pose in the nude for the world, you might become first lady! I think female exploitation and oppression are two sides of the same coin.


a pandoras box indeed

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## iPakMan

harun786 said:


> Abu I totally agree with you. These type of behavior has given Muslim and Islam a bad name. If we really want to rule the world then we need to be flexible and tolerant to people feeling and alot needs to be understood about other religions wants and feeling .Or else forget about ruling the world. We will be named as terrorist.


 
Rule the world.....

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## Raja.Pakistani

iPakMan said:


> Rule the world.....


 
yes and he is also worried that muslim will be named as terrorists if they supported women right of wearing Burqa


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## ephone

I support the French move on this one. Take that thing off or go to prison.


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## ephone

If muslim really has any intention to respect women, give women equal rights on everything. 

Cutting the ball off for all of those honor killing bastards will be a good start.

If some of you want your women to wear that terrible clothes, well, why don't you wear those first for about 10 years in all weather conditions, hot or cold, and then talk about this matter after that???

When muslim women are under constant threat from their males, do not talk about something as "genuinely want...". 

Before islam becomes a tolerant religion, it has no future in majority of the world and will continues being discriminated in most of the world, even in China.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Well this topic seems to open a pandoras box for a free-thinker.
> 
> 
> On one hand, woman or anyone should have a right to adorn themselves however they want --as long as it isn't offensive to others. French parliament terms burqa/niqab as socially unacceptable and a threat to their secularism. We can argue the reasons from dawn till dusk; at the end of the day --it's their law.
> 
> Respect it, or leave.
> 
> And allow me to be even more frank by posing a question.
> 
> Where is it mandated in the religion that woman must cover herself head to toe?
> 
> Racism is rampant in many parts of the 'secular' EU countries some of the Muslim diaspora also don't make enough efforts to integrate. Integrate doesnt mean popping bottles of wine and wearing miniskirts; it doesnt mean guys must gel their hair and talk in gay accents; it simply means making the extra effort to reach out to locals and be more open to engaging in people to people contact --instead of staying in their enclaves.
> 
> lastly, if a woman GENUINELY wants to wear a niqab (not out of pressure or hidden coercion) then by all means they can do it. I personally think it's totally un-necessary. To me the woman is a sign of beauty --her face, her hair, everything. They are bearers of life. They must show themselves. If they are compelled to keep their ''gaze'' down -- then maybe its guys who should do the same as well, and not be scumbags.
> 
> I wonder about how the male gaze determines what is socially acceptable for women. In France now, you can't leave the house if you cover your face, but if you pose in the nude for the world, you might become first lady! I think female exploitation and oppression are two sides of the same coin.
> 
> 
> a pandoras box indeed


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## 53fd

Raja.Pakistani said:


> ^ I think when you left it for Allah to judge their actions based on their intentions then there is nothing left for us to comment on their act of wearing Niqab as Islamic or non Islamic.
> 
> Dude for many peoples you are not moderate unless you behave and act like them so even if some muslim women will start wearing hijab rather than niqab then for many western peoples they will still not be considered as moderate or liberal. I don't know how wearing specific dress code stop women working for the betterment of society. Cannot you work for the betterment of society after wearing extra piece of clothe? Again your logic is flaw so next you will say that every muslim should move to islamic country if religion get ban in western country which dont make any sense at all
> 
> Everyone should have right to live his/her life according to his own perception of right or wrong and peoples should not live their life according to expectations of others. western women have choice to wear less clothe and then muslim women should have same right to wear whatever they choose to wear
> 
> This topic is not about niqab being Islamic or non Islamic. Its about choice of wearing whatever you like to wear which is the basic right of every individual


 
Hijab (without the face veil) is perfectly fine with me, I have very close friends who wear Hijab, & the Hijab doesn't prevent them from doing regular things, such as being involved in college activities, sports or going to the work place to work (offices) etc. I am no one to stop women wearing niqabs, they are perfectly entitled to do that. Allah knows best. May Allah guide us all to the Sirat-al-Mustaqim. Ameen.


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## anonymous123

what if i wear surgical face mask like some in asian country..........will i get fined too???


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## 53fd

Raja.Pakistani said:


> If they claim to be a secular country then they should allow peoples from different religions to wear their religious symbol or should allow them to practice teachings of their religion as long as these religious practices don't harm any other person in society. Telling someone what to wear and what not to wear is oppression. Another evil show of democartic oppression of minorities and a war against women.
> 
> I don't know how wearing hijab or cross hurt any other person. It is not right for state to dictate peoples what they can wear and what they cannot. its peoples personal choice to wear whatever they want to wear. Just like women are free to wear bikini in west they should be free to wear veil. what will come next then ..peoples should not be allowed to offer prayers or keep fasting because French constitution consider them as useless things. Constitution should be there to protect the right of peoples


 
Islamic countries do not let non-Muslims open bars, Saudi Arabia doesn't let temples, churches, or anything else be constructed in their country. We expect non-Muslims to live by our standards, but we cry 'freedom & secular democracy' in their situation. Typical hypocrisy. *The truth of the better is, even with this face veil thing, they are far more respectful to our religion than we are to theirs.* In the US, we have our mosques, Islamic (Sunday) schools, Islamic centers, Imam Bargahs (for Shias). No one kills in the name of religion. We have Taraweeh during Ramadhan for our Sunni brothers, Friday prayers for everyone, we have full freedom observing Lailut-Qadr in Ramadhan & Ashoora in Muharram. Hijabi women are not left out of any way. Niqabi women however, create an awkward situation for everyone.

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## 53fd

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Well this topic seems to open a pandoras box for a free-thinker.
> 
> 
> On one hand, woman or anyone should have a right to adorn themselves however they want --as long as it isn't offensive to others. French parliament terms burqa/niqab as socially unacceptable and a threat to their secularism. We can argue the reasons from dawn till dusk; at the end of the day --it's their law.
> 
> Respect it, or leave.
> 
> And allow me to be even more frank by posing a question.
> 
> Where is it mandated in the religion that woman must cover herself head to toe?
> 
> Racism is rampant in many parts of the 'secular' EU countries some of the Muslim diaspora also don't make enough efforts to integrate. Integrate doesnt mean popping bottles of wine and wearing miniskirts; it doesnt mean guys must gel their hair and talk in gay accents; it simply means making the extra effort to reach out to locals and be more open to engaging in people to people contact --instead of staying in their enclaves.
> 
> lastly, if a woman GENUINELY wants to wear a niqab (not out of pressure or hidden coercion) then by all means they can do it. I personally think it's totally un-necessary. To me the woman is a sign of beauty --her face, her hair, everything. They are bearers of life. They must show themselves. If they are compelled to keep their ''gaze'' down -- then maybe its guys who should do the same as well, and not be scumbags.
> 
> I wonder about how the male gaze determines what is socially acceptable for women. In France now, you can't leave the house if you cover your face, but if you pose in the nude for the world, you might become first lady! I think female exploitation and oppression are two sides of the same coin.
> 
> 
> a pandoras box indeed


 
Well said Abu bhai, I completely agree with you. May Allah bless you brother.

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## ephone

If every muslim thinks like what you do, islam indeed has some future. The problem is that majority of muslims do not think in this objective way.



bilalhaider said:


> Islamic countries do not let non-Muslims open bars, Saudi Arabia doesn't let temples, churches, or anything else be constructed in their country. We expect non-Muslims to live by our standards, but we cry 'freedom & secular democracy' in their situation. Typical hypocrisy. *The truth of the better is, even with this face veil thing, they are far more respectful to our religion than we are to theirs.* In the US, we have our mosques, Islamic school, Islamic centers, Imam Bargahs (for Shias). No one kills in the name of religion. We have Taraweeh during Ramadhan for our Sunni brothers, Friday prayers for everyone, we have full freedom observing Lailut-Qadr in Ramadhan & Ashoora in Muharram. Hijabi women are not left out of any way. Niqabi women however, create an awkward situation for everyone.

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## ephone

French has done the right thing here. Take that ugly thing off.


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## T-Rex

ephone said:


> French has done the right thing here. Take that ugly thing off.


 
I find the dress of the catholic nuns quite ugly, perhaps the Pakistani and other Muslim governments should ban that. It would be quite entertaining, seeing the beautiful shapes of the nuns.

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## twoplustwoisfour

France should ban Malinga's hair.


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## jdme

Raja.Pakistani said:


> I dont think its right to compare theocratic state with secular. There would not be any objection or protest if France was a theocratic state who would have derived this law against burqa from teaching of their religion.


 
All Muslim nations to a certain extent are "theocratic". Who should one compare it too then?


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## jdme

T-Rex said:


> I find the dress of the catholic nuns quite ugly, perhaps the Pakistani and other Muslim governments should ban that. It would be quite entertaining, seeing the beautiful shapes of the nuns.


 

That would be on top of already treating all non-Muslim religions as second rate?


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## Burnz

T-Rex said:


> I find the dress of the catholic nuns quite ugly, perhaps the Pakistani and other Muslim governments should ban that. It would be quite entertaining, seeing the beautiful shapes of the nuns.


 
I know you have a fetish for Non-Muslim Woman as you cannot see inside the Burkha

Anyways How many Nuns...cough....Christians are left in the Islamic countries?


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## Doctor09

jdme said:


> Isn't that obvious? Muslims are the least compatible people and even after 2rd/3rd generation they maintain cultural/values that is in stark contrast to host nation. In simple terms, they simply fail to assimilate. The y are trying to Europe into Arabia which simply cannot be tolerated.


 
everyone has a right to wear reasonable dress its basic human rights..........they call themselves the protectors of human rights but they themselves do against it...........if wearing a simple reasonable dress can can make then angry then they should stop singing the song of harmony among religions and peace they should stop fooling the world in name of human rights...............they showed their double standard many times they show their hate against islam and muslims..............their priests burn our HOLY BOOK their news paper disrespect our PROPHET (PBUH) but no one raised their voice against them but when it comes to muslims they come against us without any reason


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## 53fd

Even in countries like the US, women are not allowed to be naked, without any clothes out in the public. It is against the law. Similarly, if there is a law banning the Burqa here in the United States, I would support banning it the same way nudity is banned here in the public. It's only fair in my opinion.


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## khurasaan1

Whatelse we can expect from the France , the first world developed country , to take away the rights of the ordinary Muslims. women..
They dictate us to give freedom to Muslim womenz and themselves trying to force them out against their wishes...
What a hypocritic first world this is...


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## jdme

^^And what freedom is that?


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## khurasaan1

ephone said:


> I support the French move on this one. Take that thing off or go to prison.


 
I guess u dont wanna give freedom to pplz and trying to force them against their wishes...


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## Ganguly

Pakistan should stop defence collaboration with France. Ban all the existing links wth France, don't forget you are Islamic republic of Pakistan. This is an offence for all muslims.


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## Haseebullah

jdme said:


> Secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Never mind that you don't understand what that is..


 


> In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief. (See also Separation of church and state and Laïcité.) In another sense, it refers to the view that human activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be unbiased by religious influence.



I know right now you will be finding it very hard to relate the above quoted text with my argument so let me do the hard work for you.

As it states a secular society isn't exactly supposed to impose a religion on their population so banning people from practicing a religious practice is kind of forcing them to lean towards your way of the society ithus imposing a religious restriction on them.

We don't exactly follow the surprisingly stupid saying
*"When in Rome ,do what Romans do."*

We tend to remain consistent in our practical beliefs rather than other people.


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## MilSpec

Haseebullah said:


> I know right now you will be finding it very hard to relate the above quoted text with my argument so let me do the hard work for you.
> 
> As it states a secular society isn't exactly supposed to impose a religion on their population so banning people from practicing a religious practice and kind of forcing them to lean towards your way of the society is imposing a religious restriction on them.
> 
> We don't exactly follow the surprisingly stupid saying
> *"When in Rome ,do what Romans do."*
> 
> We tend to remain consistent in our practical beliefs rather than other people.


 

Post 9/11 hiding your face might be a big security issue ..especially with islamic terror trying to find new innovative ways to wreck havoc on innocent civilians. So burqa becomes a very serious threat. Cover all of your body with what ever you want except with a burqa where you can pretty much hide a bomb inside. burqa is a security threat and even other countries should start seriously thinking about banning the burqa

The entire logic of Burqa against women's liberation. Burqa was meant to protect women from lustful eyes of men , Those ages have gone now ... women have entire right to flaunt their sexuality to appease themselves and law and order gives them the liberty to do so in modern developed countries unlike islamic states.


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## Raja.Pakistani

jdme said:


> All Muslim nations to a certain extent are "theocratic". Who should one compare it too then?


 
Why you feel the need to compare "theocratic" state with "secular state" when they are two totally different form of Government. Let me tell you how

*Theocratic State*: Religion play an important role in Government decisions. Most laws of state derive from religious scripture of local peoples. Islamic state will be based on Islamic principles

*Secular state* Religion don't play any role in government decision. Peoples can practice their religion in their private day to day lives but Government will not use any religious scripture to make laws for its peoples. Secular state will be based on secular principles.

Now question arise : Is France a secular state or theocratic state? If they claim to be secular then then they should have secular laws and these laws give freedom to peoples to practice their religion in their private life as long as they don't hurt any other member of the society. Most western Government claim that Saudia government don't give right to women to wear Bikini and bra in public and they oppress women with their Islamic concept of modesty but then they go and do the same by taking away the right of women to wear niqab.

If these different government doing the same thing then they should not preach that western secular government give women more rights as compare to theocratic state. I am not talking about just wearing niqab but they should also allow Christian to wear cross as it dont hurt anyone else 

Perhaps all the objections pertaining to a Muslim woman's veil have more to do with the beholders' mental attitude than with actual practical problems pertaining to mobility and comfort?

You, as a beholder, do not have to understand why the Muslim woman chooses to wear the veil, you do not have to accept it, you do not even have to agree to it, what you can do, though, is to respect her decision, her choice, to dress the way she does. Perhaps then we all can live and let live, in mutual peace and harmony, in this world : )


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## Haseebullah

sandy_3126 said:


> Post 9/11 hiding your face might be a big security issue ..especially with islamic terror trying to find new innovative ways to wreck havoc on innocent civilians. So burqa becomes a very serious threat. Cover all of your body with what ever you want except with a burqa where you can pretty much hide a bomb inside. burqa is a security threat and even other countries should start seriously thinking about banning the burqa
> 
> The entire logic of Burqa against women's liberation. Burqa was meant to protect women from lustful eyes of men , Those ages have gone now ... *women have entire right to flaunt their sexuality to appease themselves* and law and order gives them the liberty to do so in modern developed countries unlike islamic states.


 
1.When will you understand to respect the teaching of religions.This is exactly what Islam prohibits a woman from doing.

2.Well Islamic states have relatively very low rape count unlike Non-Islamic states:
Crime Statistics > Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country

Showing latest available data.
Rank Countries Amount 
# 1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people 
# 2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people 
# 3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people 
# 4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people 
# 5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people 
# 6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people 
# 7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people 
# 8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people 
# 9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people 
# 10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people 
# 11 Papua New Guinea: 0.233544 per 1,000 people 
# 12 New Zealand: 0.213383 per 1,000 people 
# 13 United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000 people 
# 14 Spain: 0.140403 per 1,000 people 
# 15 France: 0.139442 per 1,000 people 
# 16 Korea, South: 0.12621 per 1,000 people 
# 17 Mexico:  0.122981 per 1,000 people 
# 18 Norway: 0.120836 per 1,000 people 
# 19 Costa Rica: 0.118277 per 1,000 people 
# 20 Venezuela: 0.115507 per 1,000 people 
# 21 Finland: 0.110856 per 1,000 people 
# 22 Netherlands: 0.100445 per 1,000 people 
# 23 Denmark: 0.0914948 per 1,000 people 
# 24 Germany: 0.0909731 per 1,000 people 
# 25 Bulgaria: 0.0795973 per 1,000 people 
# 26 Chile: 0.0782179 per 1,000 people 
# 27 Thailand: 0.0626305 per 1,000 people 
# 28 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0623785 per 1,000 people 
# 29 Poland: 0.062218 per 1,000 people 
# 30 Sri Lanka: 0.0599053 per 1,000 people 
# 31 Hungary: 0.0588588 per 1,000 people 
# 32 Estonia: 0.0547637 per 1,000 people 
# 33 Ireland: 0.0542829 per 1,000 people 
# 34 Switzerland: 0.0539458 per 1,000 people 
# 35 Belarus: 0.0514563 per 1,000 people 
# 36 Uruguay: 0.0512295 per 1,000 people 
# 37 Lithuania: 0.0508757 per 1,000 people 
# 38 Malaysia: 0.0505156 per 1,000 people 
# 39 Romania: 0.0497089 per 1,000 people 
# 40 Czech Republic: 0.0488234 per 1,000 people 
# 41 Russia: 0.0486543 per 1,000 people 
# 42 Latvia: 0.0454148 per 1,000 people 
# 43 Moldova: 0.0448934 per 1,000 people 
# 44 Colombia: 0.0433254 per 1,000 people 
# 45 Slovenia: 0.0427648 per 1,000 people 
# 46 Italy: 0.0402045 per 1,000 people 
# 47 Portugal: 0.0364376 per 1,000 people 
# 48 Tunisia: 0.0331514 per 1,000 people 
# 49 Zambia: 0.0266383 per 1,000 people 
# 50 Ukraine: 0.0244909 per 1,000 people 
# 51 Slovakia: 0.0237525 per 1,000 people 
# 52 Mauritius: 0.0219334 per 1,000 people 
# 53 Turkey: 0.0180876 per 1,000 people 
# 54 Japan: 0.017737 per 1,000 people 
# 55 Hong Kong: 0.0150746 per 1,000 people 
# 56 India: 0.0143187 per 1,000 people 
# 57 Qatar: 0.0139042 per 1,000 people 
# 58 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0132029 per 1,000 people 
# 59 Greece: 0.0106862 per 1,000 people 
# 60 Georgia: 0.0100492 per 1,000 people 
# 61 Armenia: 0.00938652 per 1,000 people 
# 62 Indonesia: 0.00567003 per 1,000 people 
# 63 Yemen: 0.0038597 per 1,000 people 
# 64 Azerbaijan: 0.00379171 per 1,000 people 
# 65 Saudi Arabia: 0.00329321 per 1,000 people

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## twoplustwoisfour

^^ 
Please post the source as well.

I want to know this: are these the crime occurrence statistics or the crime _reporting _ statistics? I mean, it would be fairly obvious why a woman would refuse to report rape in Islamic countries.


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## Raja.Pakistani

twoplustwoisfour said:


> ^^
> Please post the source as well.
> 
> I want to know this: are these the crime occurrence statistics or the crime _reporting _ statistics? I mean, it would be fairly obvious why a woman would refuse to report rape in Islamic countries.


 I dont know where did he get his statistic from But here is Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country

Rapes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.

Total crimes (most recent) by country

Total crimes statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

I agree with you that it may be the reason that some peoples don't report rape crime not only in islamic countries but also even in usa , uk , india for different reasons


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## Haseebullah

Raja.Pakistani said:


> I dont know where did he get his statistic from But here is Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country
> 
> Rapes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.
> 
> Total crimes (most recent) by country
> 
> Total crimes statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
> 
> I agree with you that it may be the reason that some peoples don't report rape crime not only in islamic countries but also even in usa , uk , india for different reasons


 
Yes,i got it from the first link.

---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 PM ----------




twoplustwoisfour said:


> ^^
> Please post the source as well.
> 
> I want to know this: are these the crime occurrence statistics or the crime _reporting _ statistics? I mean, it would be fairly obvious why a woman would refuse to report rape in Islamic countries.


 
Well,we cant really go around every other neighborhood asking for an assaulted woman.


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## Hafizzz

Burnz said:


> I hope India and Pakistan apply this law. Few days back we had a robbery case where women in Burkha stole some precious jewelery and the CCTV only showed burkhas.


 
I hope India does not have this law :



> Will India Face a Burqa Ban?
> Will India Face a Burqa Ban? - India Real Time - WSJ
> 
> Frances ban on the burqa came into effect earlier this week. The law, which the French parliament approved last year, forbids people from concealing their faces in public. While it does not explicitly mention the full-body robe, the burqa is widely recognized as the bans main target. France, which is home to Europes largest Muslim community, is the first country to push through this controversial ban.
> 
> What implications does this have for India  a country which has one of the largest Muslim population in the world?
> 
> Indias 175 million Muslims make them the countrys largest minority. Around 60% are under 25 years of age, meaning this figure is likely to increase in coming years.
> 
> In India too tensions have occasionally flared up over the use of the burqa in public spaces. But Meraj A. Khan, a legal consultant with National Commission for Minorities told India Real Time that these were isolated incidents. He said the commission, which evaluates the progress of development of minorities and looks into complaints of discrimination, rarely receives complaints on episodes involving  burqa-clad women.
> 
> On Frances ban, Mr. Khan said that India is unlikely to follow suit. In India, it is up to the individual when it comes to religion. Nobody can enforce such things here.
> 
> In recent years there have been several incidents involving the burqa.
> 
> In 2009, a state college in Karnataka, told a student she was not allowed to attend classes wearing a burqa. It was later reported that the young girl reached a compromise arrangement with the college but did not continue in the same college.
> 
> Days later, violent protests sparked in Hyderabad after a college principal allegedly told students not to wear a burqa.
> 
> But opposite episodes have also occurred. In July 2010, a teacher at Kolkatas Aliah University, which has a focus on Islamic studies, was not allowed to teach without a burqa. The report followed an official notice released in April 2010, in which the university dismissed suggestions it enforced a dress code, mentioning specifically the use of the burqa within its campus.
> 
> Noorjehan Safia Niaz, a founding member of Bhartiya Muslim Mahila Andolan, a movement which works to improve the status of Muslim women in India, said security concerns have not been a major issue when it comes to dress. Muslim women in India comply with all the laws. They are active participants when it comes to elections and have their photos on their passports. So identification and security have never been an issue as such, she said.
> 
> Discrimination, however, has sometimes caused problems, said Ms. Niaz. There are cases when women are not considered for a particular job because they wear a burqa. In such cases, women have negotiated. They do not wear burqa while at work but before and after it they put it on. Overall, Ms. Niaz said that women themselves  not the law  should decide what to wear. Let each woman decide what she wants to wear. Neither can you enforce a ban on burqa nor can you force women to wear it.
> 
> Some political forces in India, including the right-wing Hindu nationalist party Shiv Sena, would favor a ban. Citing security concerns, Neelam Gorhe, spokesperson for Shiva Sena, said that the party welcomes the ban by the French government. Although the party has not demanded an outright ban, it suggested there should be some restrictions on where people would be allowed to wear the burqa. She mentioned poll booths as an example of where it should not be allowed.


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## srsrsr

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Why you feel the need to compare "theocratic" state with "secular state" when they are two totally different form of Government. Let me tell you how
> 
> *Theocratic State*: Religion play an important role in Government decisions. Most laws of state derive from religious scripture of local peoples. Islamic state will be based on Islamic principles
> 
> *Secular state* Religion don't play any role in government decision. Peoples can practice their religion in their private day to day lives but Government will not use any religious scripture to make laws for its peoples. Secular state will be based on secular principles.
> 
> Now question arise : Is France a secular state or theocratic state? If they claim to be secular then then they should have secular laws and these laws give freedom to peoples to practice their religion in their private life as long as they don't hurt any other member of the society. Most western Government claim that Saudia government don't give right to women to wear Bikini and bra in public and they oppress women with their Islamic concept of modesty but then they go and do the same by taking away the right of women to wear niqab.
> 
> If these different government doing the same thing then they should not preach that western secular government give women more rights as compare to theocratic state. I am not talking about just wearing niqab but they should also allow Christian to wear cross as it dont hurt anyone else
> 
> Perhaps all the objections pertaining to a Muslim woman's veil have more to do with the beholders' mental attitude than with actual practical problems pertaining to mobility and comfort?
> 
> You, as a beholder, do not have to understand why the Muslim woman chooses to wear the veil, you do not have to accept it, you do not even have to agree to it, what you can do, though, is to respect her decision, her choice, to dress the way she does. Perhaps then we all can live and let live, in mutual peace and harmony, in this world : )



I fairly agree with the first part of post and questioning on France's choice. 

However there's one more attribute of a non theocratic state i.e nation important than religion. So on borderline topics between nation and religion , nation gets the benefit of doubt, that's what France has gone with

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## Raja.Pakistani

srsrsr said:


> I fairly agree with the first part of post and questioning on France's choice.
> 
> However there's one more attribute of a non theocratic state i.e nation important than religion. So on borderline topics between nation and religion , nation gets the benefit of doubt, that's what France has gone with



Dude I am sorry but i did not understand your point. Can you elaborate it? Why you think this discussion is about Nation vs Religion?

I mean how wearing a specific dress code by some French national violate the interest of French nation? The reason they give to ban burqa is that it hides the identity of a person, what proof do they have that all the crimes committed in France are done by veiled women wearing burqas?

If it is concerned with only the identification problem; will President Nicholas surkozy allow the Muslim women to wear abaya with long scarves revealing their faces? What if president surkozy did not like the traditional indian dress sari in future ? would it be right for him to ban sari too? Even if the burqa represents oppression for Sarkozy, does not mean it represents that to people who actually wear it. Therefore, it must those women&#8217;s decision, if they want to wear for their own personal reasons

This ban will not help secure the country. If someone wants to commit a crime, she or he will commit it whether she wears a burqa or not. This will not stop the crime cases as well. Therefore, even if this law has good reasons, they are not feasible ones


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## jdme

doctor09 said:


> everyone has a right to wear reasonable dress its basic human rights..........they call themselves the protectors of human rights but they themselves do against it.........*..if wearing a simple reasonable dress can can make then angry then they should stop singing the song of *harmony among religions and peace they should stop fooling the world in name of human rights...............they showed their double standard many times they show their hate against islam and muslims..............their priests burn our HOLY BOOK their news paper disrespect our PROPHET (PBUH) but no one raised their voice against them but when it comes to muslims they come against us without any reason


 
Simple reasonable dress? I can fancy myself clad in all black in 90 degrees F! See that's where the problem is, this idea of what "reasonable" means for one people and non so reasonable for another. 


There is no THEY. French government didn't ask anyone to burn books. May be in Muslim world all humans have one "collective" mind, in West everyone is an individual, fully capable of making their own choice. By the way, you can go to US and burn any holy book of your desire. I promise you, they will not chop your head off or stone you to death unlike some countries I know. Jesus and Christianity (and other religions) get mocked in west all the time. Problem here is not west but how Muslim countries want west to treat religion especially Islam in their own boundaries! Have you seen France demanding Saudi Arabia that Christians be given this and this right?


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## jdme

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Dude I am sorry but i did not understand your point. Can you elaborate it? Why you think this discussion is about Nation vs Religion?
> 
> I mean how wearing a specific dress code by some French national violate the interest of French nation? The reason they give to ban burqa is that it hides the identity of a person, what proof do they have that all the crimes committed in France are done by veiled women wearing burqas?
> 
> If it is concerned with only the identification problem; will President Nicholas surkozy allow the Muslim women to wear abaya with long scarves revealing their faces? What if president surkozy did not like the traditional indian dress sari in future ? would it be right for him to ban sari too? Even if the burqa represents oppression for Sarkozy, does not mean it represents that to people who actually wear it. Therefore, it must those women&#8217;s decision, if they want to wear for their own personal reasons
> 
> This ban will not help secure the country. If someone wants to commit a crime, she or he will commit it whether she wears a burqa or not. This will not stop the crime cases as well. Therefore, even if this law has good reasons, they are not feasible ones


 
Are you actually hoping for a response on this


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## jdme

Haseebullah said:


> I know right now you will be finding it very hard to relate the above quoted text with my argument so let me do the hard work for you.
> 
> *As it states a secular society isn't exactly supposed to impose a religion on their population so banning people from practicing a religious practice is kind of forcing them to lean towards your way of the society ithus imposing a religious restriction on them.
> *
> We don't exactly follow the surprisingly stupid saying
> *"When in Rome ,do what Romans do."*
> 
> We tend to remain consistent in our practical beliefs rather than other people.


 
1) You are confusing the hell out of me. 
2) Yes. When you live in France, you either adopt to French way of lifestyle overtime or respect it. Don't confuse culture with religion. Polygamy is banned in all western nations. Now is that taking away the rights of Muslims? What about stoning people to death? Answer is simple, only practices that are compatible with French society/law or French people think are fine will be allowed,


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## Raja.Pakistani

JDME @ Did you read my previous post . You are doing same thing again by comparing theocratic state with secular. French is not Christian country lol
You are saying it with pride that Christianity and other religion get mocked in west. Why any sane person will mock religion or will burn religious scripture?


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## Raja.Pakistani

jdme said:


> Are you actually hoping for a response on this


 
why not..go ahead


----------



## jdme

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Why you feel the need to compare "theocratic" state with "secular state" when they are two totally different form of Government. Let me tell you how
> 
> *Theocratic State*: Religion play an important role in Government decisions. Most laws of state derive from religious scripture of local peoples. Islamic state will be based on Islamic principles
> 
> *Secular state* Religion don't play any role in government decision. Peoples can practice their religion in their private day to day lives but Government will not use any religious scripture to make laws for its peoples. Secular state will be based on secular principles.
> 
> Now question arise : Is France a secular state or theocratic state? If they claim to be secular then then they should have secular laws and these laws give freedom to peoples to practice their religion in their private life as long as they don't hurt any other member of the society. Most western Government claim that Saudia government don't give right to women to wear Bikini and bra in public and they oppress women with their Islamic concept of modesty but then they go and do the same by taking away the right of women to wear niqab.
> 
> If these different government doing the same thing then they should not preach that western secular government give women more rights as compare to theocratic state. I am not talking about just wearing niqab but they should also allow Christian to wear cross as it dont hurt anyone else
> 
> Perhaps all the objections pertaining to a Muslim woman's veil have more to do with the beholders' mental attitude than with actual practical problems pertaining to mobility and comfort?
> 
> You, as a beholder, do not have to understand why the Muslim woman chooses to wear the veil, you do not have to accept it, you do not even have to agree to it, what you can do, though, is to respect her decision, her choice, to dress the way she does. Perhaps then we all can live and let live, in mutual peace and harmony, in this world : )


 

World has changed. In US, even after 9/11, there is no discussion of banning veil and what not for simple reason that American Muslims don't stand out. In western Europe, even after 2nd, 3rd generation, Muslims stand out. From European perspective, these people are not local. Why come to Europe if you wanna live like a religious Pakistani or Moroccan? Even in Europe, Muslims are the poorest of all minorities and it's not because they are more oppressed than any other minority. It's simple. Burqa clad woman is never going to "work" or have a normal life, normal here being the way French might live. If it were peaceful times, it would not have bugged them so much. It's not. There is major tension between Muslim world and west in general. Live and let live is hardly working, is it?


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## jdme

Raja.Pakistani said:


> JDME @ Did you read my previous post . You are doing same thing again by comparing theocratic state with secular. French is not Christian country lol
> You are saying it with pride that Christianity and other religion get mocked in west. Why any sane person will mock religion or will burn religious scripture?


 

Why would any sane person believe in those books Lets not discuss people's sanity. In west (or any free country), people do it because they can. They do it, to prove a point. TO show to the world that we are not a fundamentalist nation. They are not just burning books all the time. Idea is that they can and that's what matters to them. 

As to France, yes it's not a christian nation. If it were, they would simply close all Mosques in France. Would they have even dreamed of doing anything like this even 15 years ago? No. But anti-Muslim sentiment is growing all over west for a while now. French people see Viel as their nation's failure to assimilate people. They are simply sending a message, my way or highway. Is France more right wing than before? Perhaps. But their land, their law.


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## Raja.Pakistani

jdme said:


> When you live in France, you either adopt to French way of lifestyle overtime or respect it. Don't confuse culture with religion. Polygamy is banned in all western nations. Now is that taking away the rights of Muslims? What about stoning people to death? Answer is simple, only practices that are compatible with French society/law or French people think are fine will be allowed,


 
I am sorry to say that but you have no sense what you are talking about. You don't have any knowledge of islam as you think Polygamy or stoning peoples to death is all about islam lol You also don't have any knowledge of constitution of French as French is not all about follow french culture or leave our country. French is multicultural society and muslims are not asking to bring sharia law in policy making of French government. They are asking to practice their islam in their own personal life which is basic right of every individual living in secular country


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## jdme

Raja.Pakistani said:


> I am sorry to say that but you have no sense what you are talking about. You don't have any knowledge of islam as you think Polygamy or stoning peoples to death is all about islam lol You also don't have any knowledge of constitution of French as French is not all about follow french culture or leave our country. French is multicultural society and muslims are not asking to bring sharia law in policy making of French government. They are asking to practice their islam in their own personal life which is basic right of every individual living in secular country


 

1) I am not going to bother to learn Islam just to answer this but I am from India so BUDDY, you don't have to preach me. I Read news. I don't know what Islam is all about but this kind of stuff happens in Muslim countries and that's what counts.
2) What? France is not allowed to follow French culture? Do you think French constitution was pulled magically out of sky? 
3) France is multicultural society because French people said so. Because they didn't force people to become French. Are you saying it's in Constitution. It's not.
4) Ban is not applicable inside one's home. Universities are under public domain for example.


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## ephone

T-Rex said:


> I find the dress of the catholic nuns quite ugly, perhaps the Pakistani and other Muslim governments should ban that. It would be quite entertaining, seeing the beautiful shapes of the nuns.


 
Whatever the religion it may be, do not cover your face in public. You can do whatever you want inside your church, temple, synagogue and etc.


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## ephone

The problem is that whether those rapes in Muslim countries got reported considering the traditional discrimination against the women victims in raping cases.



Raja.Pakistani said:


> I dont know where did he get his statistic from But here is Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country
> 
> Rapes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.
> 
> Total crimes (most recent) by country
> 
> Total crimes statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
> 
> I agree with you that it may be the reason that some peoples don't report rape crime not only in islamic countries but also even in usa , uk , india for different reasons


----------



## ephone

khurasaan1 said:


> Whatelse we can expect from the France , the first world developed country , to take away the rights of the ordinary Muslims. women..
> They dictate us to give freedom to Muslim womenz and themselves trying to force them out against their wishes...
> What a hypocritic first world this is...


 
Covering the whole face is ordinary in all kinds of weather conditions??? Why don't you wearing those same clothes in a hot summer and see how you feel about that? How about you wear that for 10 years and 20 years? 

How about you are forced to do so without any choice at all???

That clothes remind me medieval times and barbaric treatment against women.


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## ephone

If you do not like the French way, do not stay there. They have made it loud and clear, they do not like the silly dress and consider it a public danger.



Raja.Pakistani said:


> I am sorry to say that but you have no sense what you are talking about. You don't have any knowledge of islam as you think Polygamy or stoning peoples to death is all about islam lol You also don't have any knowledge of constitution of French as French is not all about follow french culture or leave our country. French is multicultural society and muslims are not asking to bring sharia law in policy making of French government. They are asking to practice their islam in their own personal life which is basic right of every individual living in secular country


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

jdme said:


> 1) I am not going to bother to learn Islam just to answer this but I am from India so BUDDY, you don't have to preach me. I Read news. I don't know what Islam is all about but this kind of stuff happens in Muslim countries and that's what counts



If you are not going to bother to learn about islam then don't bother to comment on islam or don't pretend that you know teaching of Islam. Thanks 


jdme said:


> 2) What? France is not allowed to follow French culture? Do you think French constitution was pulled magically out of sky?



What is French culture? lol When i said that Frenchs are not be allowed to follow their culture. You have peoples from different cultures and religions living in French secular country and they are given freedom by french constitution to follow their own cultures or religion as long as they dont hurt anyone else.



jdme said:


> 3) France is multicultural society because French people said so. Because they didn't force people to become French. Are you saying it's in Constitution. It's not.


So what is in their constitution? I think you know alot about french constitution so tell us what their Constitution say about women right and personal freedom of peoples to practice their religion?

For your kind information banning of the burka is a huge violation of constitutional rights and is not within the power of the federal government. The 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Mans and of the Citizen and guarantees the right to freedom of religion in France.
*
"No one may be questioned about his opinions, [and the] same [for] religious [opinions], provided that their manifestation does not trouble the public order established by the law."*

Unless you consider a veil on a woman troubling public order then a serious violation of this major clause has occurred. The plausible next step for France is to cease claiming they are a secular nation because there is nothing secular about stigmatizing and labeling a religious group and preventing their followers from practicing their beliefs.




jdme said:


> 4) Ban is not applicable inside one's home. Universities are under public domain for example



haha Dude women dont need to wear Hijab or niqab in their home. So how hijab/niqab or burqa stop woman from learning in colleges or university? Should teachers must have to see your whole body to make sure you understand the concept of trigonometry or parabola lol


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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> If you do not like the French way, do not stay there. They have made it loud and clear, they do not like the silly dress and consider it a public danger.


No point of gibberish if you dont have any valid points for argument 

If they dont like this silly dress then they don't need to wear it. simple is that

would you bother to tell us the public danger of this dress lol which i discussed in my previous reply


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## iPakMan

ephone said:


> Covering the whole face is ordinary in all kinds of weather conditions??? Why don't you wearing those same clothes in a hot summer and see how you feel about that? How about you wear that for 10 years and 20 years?
> 
> How about you are forced to do so without any choice at all???
> 
> That clothes remind me medieval times and barbaric treatment against women.


 
Well problem is that some countries are still stuck in the medieval times.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

Well problem is some peoples are so ignorant and narrow minded that they want to impose their own like or dislike on everyone else. They forget that everyone have freedom of speech, freedom to worship who, where and when they want, and freedom to wear what they want. Peoples also forget that most of the women who wear the burka do so out of choice


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## ephone

Raja.Pakistani said:


> No point of gibberish if you dont have any valid points for argument
> 
> If they dont like this silly dress then they don't need to wear it. simple is that
> 
> would you bother to tell us the public danger of this dress lol which i discussed in my previous reply



How clear do the French have to be? They have made it law to ban that silly clothes.

If you want to challenge that, go ahead. Wear that clothes in France and see whether the French policemen will be nice to you or beat you up.


----------



## chops3d

ephone said:


> Covering the whole face is ordinary in all kinds of weather conditions??? Why don't you wearing those same clothes in a hot summer and see how you feel about that? How about you wear that for 10 years and 20 years?
> 
> How about you are forced to do so without any choice at all???
> 
> That clothes remind me medieval times and barbaric treatment against women.


 
u talk abt weather conditions, then, in western countries women wear mini skirts in a sub zero temperatures, in which even my thick jeans are unable to protect me against the cold.. do you find any sane in that

the women wear burka in hot temp for the purpose to cover, they maintain dignity and respect by wearing complete cloths

what sort of purpose makes them wear half cloths in minus temps, or just your western masters have saved the clause in your mental hard drive that wearing burka is medievel and wearing bikini is modern??

if burka make u think of barbarism, then what skirts and bikinis tell you, sluts??

in midievel times your western masters were barbarians and wild people, they didnt had any civilization when the muslim world was excelling in science


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> How clear do the French have to be? They have made it law to ban that silly clothes.
> 
> If you want to challenge that, go ahead. Wear that clothes in France and see whether the French policemen will be nice to you or beat you up.


 
again just gibberish without any solid reasoning or counter argument


----------



## Hawk Eyes

in my opinion burkas are stupid. No one should be forced to wear it, but if its a matter of personal perference then it should not be banned. Anywho Turkey banned the Hijab and Burka so whats the difference here?


----------



## chops3d

Ganguly said:


> Pakistan should stop defence collaboration with France. Ban all the existing links wth France, don't forget you are Islamic republic of Pakistan. This is an offence for all muslims.


 
we will do, when india stops importing oil from iran and saudi arabic barbaric states 

---------- Post added at 05:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 AM ----------




Hawk Eyes said:


> in my opinion burkas are stupid. No one should be forced to wear it, but if its a matter of personal perference then it should not be banned. Anywho Turkey banned the Hijab and Burka so whats the difference here?


 
burka is which covers the face, hijab doesnt necessarily cover the face


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## Hawk Eyes

iPakMan said:


> Why does everything bad have to end with "Inshallah"? And what if Allah doesn`t will it, then what?
> Good for the french.


 
Its something that is said with great respect to a greater being. Just like hindus do with cows.


----------



## ephone

chops3d said:


> u talk abt weather conditions, then, in western countries women wear mini skirts in a sub zero temperatures, in which even my thick jeans are unable to protect me against the cold.. do you find any sane in that
> 
> the women wear burka in hot temp for the purpose to cover, they maintain dignity and respect by wearing complete cloths
> 
> what sort of purpose makes them wear half cloths in minus temps, or just your western masters have saved the clause in your mental hard drive that wearing burka is medievel and wearing bikini is modern??


 
nobody forces them to wear mini-skirt at all. Do not twist my words.

Whatever they wear in western countries, the most important is that they have a choice. Whatever religions they want to convert to, they have a choice. Whatever religions they want to leave, they have a choice.

They are free to make their choices. That is above all. 

The common norm nowadays when wearing clothes is to expose your face in normal situation. Of course, in North Pole, you have cover every inch of your skin but that is not normal situation. 

You have been warned and will be thrown into jail if you go against the French law in France. More likely, many other countries will follow such practice.

If you want to live a normal life and do not want to be discriminated, take that silly thing off. Otherwise, you will take the consequence. Even in China, most people are disgusted to see that stupid clothes. Even in Muslim dominated region, few women wear such clothes.


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## chops3d

ephone said:


> nobody forces them to wear mini-skirt at all. Do not twist my words.
> 
> Whatever they wear in western countries, the most important is that they have a choice. Whatever religions they want to convert to, they have a choice. Whatever religions they want to leave, they have a choice.
> 
> They are free to make their choices. That is above all.
> 
> The common norm nowadays when wearing clothes is to expose your face in normal situation. Of course, in North Pole, you have cover every inch of your skin but that is not normal situation.
> 
> You have been warned and will be thrown into jail if you go against the French law in France. More likely, many other countries will follow such practice.
> 
> If you want to live a normal life and do not want to be discriminated, take that silly thing off. Otherwise, you will take the consequence. Even in China, most people are disgusted to see that stupid clothes. Even in Muslim dominated region, few women wear such clothes.


 
how can you tell women are forced to wear 'burka' did u have any personal experience??

i have seen jews with wierd beards and wearing black caps, is it not against the norms??, if every one has free choice, then any one can chose his own life style, in west people tattoo weirdly all over their body or the emos who have a weird out look, it is against the norm, still are not discriminated, so why muslims are diecriminated, its not their fault, is the biased western society fault

so please tell me how you felt wearing mini skirt in sub zero london


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## ephone

True. As I have indicated, if a religion cannot treat its women equally, it has no future. 



iPakMan said:


> Well problem is that some countries are still stuck in the medieval times.


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## iPakMan

Hawk Eyes said:


> Its something that is said with great respect to a greater being. Just like hindus do with cows.


 
I know what Inshallah means, it is very much known here in Israel. We`ve seen countless times footage of people yelling "Allah Huakbar" before committing suicide attacks, saying stuff like: "Inshallah we will slaughter the Jews and expel them from Palestine". I was referring to the fact that Inshallah is used when you hope something violent will happen. Which makes it seem that Allah wills violence and death.
For example if you said "Inshallah, we will adopt a puppy or two" i would be ok with that.


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## ephone

chops3d said:


> how can you tell women are forced to wear 'burka' did u have any personal experience??
> 
> i have seen jews with wierd beards and wearing black caps, is it not against the norms??


 
Do they have their faces covered in normal situation???

Outside people only perceived those jews as religious persons. 

However, when outsiders see those muslim women wearing those full face covered clothes, they perceived them as dangerous to public. Indeed there are many terrorists carrying their terrorism activities wearing those clothes.

Even in US, if you wear that stupid clothes in public, the first type of people you attract will be police officers. If you take any public transportation, nobody wants to be near you. If you take a flight, you are very likely to be asked to take it off or leave the plane.

I bet you will be thoroughly searched times and times again.


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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> Whatever they wear in western countries, the most important is that they have a choice. Whatever religions they want to convert to, they have a choice. Whatever religions they want to leave, they have a choice.
> They are free to make their choices. That is above all.


Why you assume that all muslim women are forced to wear Burqa. This is major flaw in your argument... Just like women have choice to wear Bikini.. They should have choice to wear hijab, burqa, niqab whatever they want. Why they should not be free to make choices?


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## iPakMan

ephone said:


> True. As I have indicated, if a religion cannot treat its women equally, it has no future.


 
That would be true, if that religion didn`t have 1.3 Billion followers and survived a 13 centuries.


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## chops3d

ephone said:


> Do they have their faces covered in normal situation???
> 
> Outside people only perceived those jews as religious persons.
> *
> However, when outsiders see those muslim women wearing those full face covered clothes, they perceived them as dangerous to public. Indeed there are many terrorists carrying their terrorism activities wearing those clothes*.


 
if a jew is caught stealing in his jewish outfit, is jew outfit declared terrorist outfit???

a woman can only wear bikini that can feel people secure??, or if she wears burka than she must be a criminal, how many crimes have happened wearing burka??, i have seen many fashionable people wearing the veil, the men, but i didnt see them being discriminated


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## chops3d

iPakMan said:


> That would be true, if that religion didn`t have 1.3 Billion followers and survived a 13 centuries.


 
no body needs to remind jews, how they felt greatful to muslims spain(aundalus) and ottoman empire.. and how the civilized europe treated them by throwing them among wild animals(romans) and gas chambers(germany) , they obviously felt better abt being throw to wild animals and gas chambers

well muslims wont repeat that greatness to them again, if they become powerful in future


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## iPakMan

chops3d said:


> if a jew is caught stealing in his jewish outfit, is jew outfit declared terrorist outfit???
> 
> a woman can only wear bikini that can feel people secure??, or if she wears burka than she must be a criminal, how many crimes have happened wearing burka??, i have seen many fashionable people wearing the veil, the men, but i didnt see them being discriminated



You need to stop worrying your feeble mind about Jews and accept the fact that Islam gives more rights to men than to women.
That women who are seen wearing those Hijab or Burqa are perceived as being forced to wear them and are seen as victims.
That women in Islamic republics can`t choose what they want or do not want to wear, whether forced to cover everything but the eyes, or killed for dressing with anything less let alone a bikini.
But of course you won`t, there is no helping people like you.


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## chops3d

iPakMan said:


> You need to stop worrying your feeble mind about Jews and accept the fact that Islam gives more rights to men than to women.
> That women who are seen wearing those Hijab or Burqa are perceived as being forced to wear them and are seen as victims.
> That women in Islamic republics can`t choose what they want or do not want to wear, whether forced to cover everything but the eyes, or killed for dressing with anything less let alone a bikini.
> But of course you won`t, there is no helping people like you.


 
y dont you ask them if they are forced or not, the bikini women look like as they are forced to undress into such short cloths, even in saudi the women are not forced to wear a veil


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## Raja.Pakistani

iPakMan said:


> You need to stop worrying your feeble mind about Jews and accept the fact that Islam gives more rights to men than to women.
> That women who are seen wearing those Hijab or Burqa are perceived as being forced to wear them and are seen as victims.
> .


 
actually its opposite . Islam give more rights to women than men

Status of mother is double than father and infact paradise lie under the feet of mother

Its father responsibility to pay for all expenses of her daughter until she get married and after marriage its her husband responsibility to take care of all her needs so she don't have any financial responsibilities on her shoulder. She can study and she can work and she can keep all her money to herself without even paying a penny to her husband and she can still claim to take money from her husband for her personal need.

As far weraing Burqa/hijab concern its her personal choice to please her GOD


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## ephone

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Why you assume that all muslim women are forced to wear Burqa. This is major flaw in your argument... Just like women have choice to wear Bikini.. They should have choice to wear hijab, burqa, niqab whatever they want. Why they should not be free to make choices?


 
Will the public perceive a bikini-wearing woman to be a terrorist or that with full-face-covered clothes to be a terrorist? Such clothes create create a great public distrust over whoever wearing such clothes. For common good, it should be taken off.


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## ephone

Money mean more rights???!!!



Raja.Pakistani said:


> actually its opposite . Islam give more rights to women than men
> 
> Status of mother is double than father and infact paradise lie under the feet of mother
> 
> Its father responsibility to pay for all expenses of her daughter until she get married and after marriage its her husband responsibility to take care of all her needs so she don't have any financial responsibilities on her shoulder. She can study and she can work and she can keep all her money to herself without even paying a penny to her husband and she can still claim to take money from her husband for her personal need.
> 
> As far weraing Burqa/hijab concern its her personal choice to please her GOD


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## ephone

iPakMan said:


> You need to stop worrying your feeble mind about Jews and accept the fact that Islam gives more rights to men than to women.
> That women who are seen wearing those Hijab or Burqa are perceived as being forced to wear them and are seen as victims.
> That women in Islamic republics can`t choose what they want or do not want to wear, whether forced to cover everything but the eyes, or killed for dressing with anything less let alone a bikini.
> But of course you won`t, there is no helping people like you.



Most countries are not islam countries and people in those countries do not like to see that full-facial covered clothes. If I have ever been in a flight with one woman with such clothes, I will be a lot nervous the whole flight. If anyone would like to ask the woman to leave, I will definitely agree with him/her. BTW, it is very possible that the woman will be asked to take that thing off. Otherwise, people will refuse to take the same flight with that person. It has happened so many times and it will happen again in the future.


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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> Will the public perceive a bikini-wearing woman to be a terrorist or that with full-face-covered clothes to be a terrorist? Such clothes create create a great public distrust over whoever wearing such clothes. For common good, it should be taken off.


 
I really feel i am having argument with some kids. How many muslim women used veil for terrorist activities in France or in any other western countries? We don't have a single incident where niqab was used for crimes, Women can do crimes with or without wearing veil.

I should say you don't wear jacket for safety reasons because you might have suicide bomb hiding inside your jacket lol


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## iPakMan

Raja.Pakistani said:


> actually its opposite . Islam give more rights to women than men
> 
> Status of mother is double than father and infact paradise lie under the feet of mother
> 
> Its father responsibility to pay for all expenses of her daughter until she get married and after marriage its her husband responsibility to take care of all her needs so she don't have any financial responsibilities on her shoulder. She can study and she can work and she can keep all her money to herself without even paying a penny to her husband and she can still claim to take money from her husband for her personal need.
> 
> As far weraing Burqa/hijab concern its her personal choice to please her GOD


 
We could argue, give each quotes from the Qoran that say otherwise, i`ve done this with another guy. That conversation was moot.
Explain to me why those women that choose not to wear Hijab/Burqa are attacked and even killed in Islamic societies?
Why women who are not "modest" in the eyes of men are sexually, verbally and physically harassed?
@chops3d 
You amaze me with your ignorance and stupidity with every single post all over again.
Among non-mahram men, women must cover the parts of the body that are awrah (not meant to be exposed). In much of Islam, a women's face is not considered awrah. In Saudi Arabia and some other Arab states, all of the body is considered awrah except the hands and eyes. 
This is the mentality of those that wear Hijab/Burqa. Obviously you cannot see the wrong here but we can.
A majority of women say they want to wear the veil.[45] They cite Islamic piety, pride in family traditions, and fewer distractions from male colleagues. For many women, the dress code is a part of the right to modesty that Islam guarantees women. Some also perceive attempts at reform as anti-Islamic intrusion by Westerners:"They fear Islam, and we are the world's foremost Islamic nation."[5]

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## iPakMan

ephone said:


> Most countries are not islam countries and people in those countries do not like to see that full-facial covered clothes. If I have ever been in a flight with one woman with such clothes, I will be a lot nervous the whole flight. If anyone would like to ask the woman to leave, I will definitely agree with him/her. BTW, it is very possible that the woman will be asked to take that thing off. Otherwise, people will refuse to take the same flight with that person. It has happened so many times and it will happen again in the future.


I was generalizing, this happens all over the world in Islamic neighborhoods, even in free nations. That is why it is so disturbing.


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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> Money mean more rights???!!!


 yes more financial rights. Men cannot claim her money while she can earn money and can still demand money from her father or husabnd for herself and childrens which is opposite to west where men expect from women to pay towards rent or bills. she has right of education, right of work , right to choose her partner etc what else she need


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## ephone

iPakMan said:


> I was generalizing, this happens all over the world in Islamic neighborhoods, even in free nations. That is why it is so disturbing.



I can say, if there will be any suicide bomber wearing such clothes detonating herself/himself in China, overnight, such clothes will be banned in China. BTW, when we Chinese say "ban", we mean real business. 

You may try those protest nonsense in western countries. However, do not ever try that in China in that matter. Few will show any sympathy towards you if you get beaten up by the police.


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## ephone

Raja.Pakistani said:


> yes more financial rights. Men cannot claim her money while she can earn money and can still demand money from her father or husabnd for herself and childrens which is opposite to west where men expect from women to pay towards rent or bills. she has right of education, right of work , right to choose her partner etc what else she need


 
Rights mean "financial rights"??? What a shallow mind.


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## fallstuff

ephone said:


> True. As I have indicated, *if a religion cannot treat its women equally, it has no future*.


 


Women and Men could own property in Arabia in 7th century a concept unheard of in Europe up until the 18th century. Women had to wait another two century for their rights. Google "Married woman property rights."

My point is with all its flaws Christianity is doing fine unless your comments selectively applies to 20th century and onwards.

What the Saudis do is their own twisted interpretation.

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## chops3d

ohh man i hate rants, least in my night mare i expect jews and pakistanis ranting... thread is stretched far enough it must be closed now


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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> Rights mean "financial rights"??? What a shallow mind.


 You said more money mean more rights. I said more money mean more financial rights as its obligatory for men to take the financial responsibilties of women while women dont have such responsibilty on their shoulder

Why don't you tell me where women have less rights in Islam?

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## iPakMan

ephone said:


> I can say, if there will be any suicide bomber wearing such clothes detonating herself/himself in China, overnight, such clothes will be banned in China. BTW, when we Chinese say "ban", we mean real business.
> 
> You may try those protest nonsense in western countries. However, do not ever try that in China in that matter. Few will show any sympathy towards you if you get beaten up by the police.


 
That is definitely something to admire of China, zero tolerance for terrorism. And while the "enlightened" nations of Europe tolerate such barbarity because of "human rights", sooner rather than later, they`ll find themselves outnumbered under not so tolerant rule.


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## ephone

The focus is now, not the past. 

Christianity also has its darkest time one thousand years ago. 

However, we are living now, not in the past.



fallstuff said:


> Women and Men could own property in Arabia in 7th century a concept unheard of in Europe up until the 18th century. Women had to wait another two century for their rights. Google "Married woman property rights."
> 
> My point is with all its flaws Christianity is doing fine unless your comments selectively applies to 20th century and onwards.
> 
> What the Saudis do is their own twisted interpretation.




---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 PM ----------




Raja.Pakistani said:


> You said more money mean more rights. I said more money mean more financial rights as its obligatory for men to take the financial responsibilties of women while women dont have such responsibilty on their shoulder
> 
> Why don't you tell me where women have less rights in Islam?


 
You did not see my question mark??? 

You did not feel I am being sarcastic???


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## Hawk Eyes

ipakman stop writing garabage. your naive mind is astounding.


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## ephone

iPakMan said:


> That is definitely something to admire of China, zero tolerance for terrorism. And while the "enlightened" nations of Europe tolerate such barbarity because of "human rights", sooner rather than later, they`ll find themselves outnumbered under not so tolerant rule.


 
That is a problem in Europe as well. Muslim population has gained a lot in many major Europe countries and most of those muslim youth do not have jobs, have low educations. They are not willing to integrate into the main culture there. They causes all kinds of trouble there. 

My mom went to Europe for a tour several years ago visiting 6 or 7 countries from China. When she was at Paris, she met with the riots by those muslim youth there and all public museums were shut down. Even though she has paid the tickets to all of those places, she was not able to go anywhere. She told me that she could see burning smokes from her hotel and situations seemed pretty bad.


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## iPakMan

Hawk Eyes said:


> ipakman stop writing garabage. your naive mind is astounding.


 
Hawk Eyes, my suggestion to you would be to stop acting like garbage. Your way of thinking and rationalizing evil is disgusting.


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## fallstuff

ephone said:


> The focus is now, not the past.
> 
> Christianity also has its darkest time one thousand years ago.
> 
> However, we are living now, not in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 PM ----------


 
Well than put a disclaimer next time when you a make a post like that. I doubt you understand the point of contention. The Burqa Act has more do with Sarkozy's politics than Islam.

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## ephone

fallstuff said:


> Well than put a disclaimer next time when you a make a post like that. I doubt you understand the point of contention. The Burqa Act has more do with Sarkozy's politics than Islam.


 
What disclaimer? Are we not living at the same time as Sarkozy lives???

Are newly passed French law in this matter not affecting anyone in current France???

Will such law not create effects in other countries as well in current time???

The Burqa act is exactly targeted to one group of people since outside people have show great discomfort against such clothes and associated such clothes with backward culture and terrorists. Simply saying it is only politics is just to fool yourself.


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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> You did not see my question mark???
> 
> You did not feel I am being sarcastic???


I feel that you are just jabbering without making any clear point or argument. People look at Islam and only see what is on the surface of it. They do not take the time to dive deep into its depths to find out the truth of its hidden treasures. Most people only see the issue of hijab. They see a muslim woman covered and assume she is oppressed. They then do not go beyond that to find out what Islam truly says regarding women. 

Islam gave women the right to vote, own property, and the right of sustenance over 1400 years ago. The right to vote was only given to women in the west within the last 100 years. The woman in a marriage has the right to keep all her money if she works. She does not have to contribute to the household upkeep or care for any children. Islam places all financial responsibility on the male.

If a woman inherits, she gets to keep 100% of her inheritance. She does not have to spend any of it on her husband, children, or household upkeep. She does not have to pay a mortgage or car payment. She does not have to pay for food or utilities. She does not have to pay for clothing or childcare. Her money can be spent on anything she wishes. A man however has the responsibility of all financial matters so who has got more rights here : husband or wife?

Also Islamic law says that the husband does not have the right to force his wife to cook, clean, or care for the children. She can even demand payment for breastfeeding her child. Now most mothers love their children and would not demand payment for breastfeeding but Islam puts this law into effect to show that women are not slaves to their husbands. If a woman chooses to do all of these things, then that is her choice free and clear. 

When a Muslim woman exercises this freedom of choice, she is considered oppressed. This constant thought process of oppression must be removed from the people's minds. All Muslim women are doing is exercising their freedom of choice. This is true liberation. Not the illusion of liberation that is often found in western societies.

Islam takes care of all aspects of a woman's life. It demands she is given respect and care from her birth until her death. When the Prophet of Islam (pbuh) was once asked after Allah (swt) and His Prophet (pbuh) who has the most rights over me? The Prophet (pbuh) replied "Your mother". Again the Prophet (pbuh) was asked and again He replied your mother. A third time He was asked and a third time he replied, "Your mother". Then on the fourth occasion, He replied your father. This is to show the respect given to women by Islam. Yes it is quite true that Muslims today do not practice this respect. Women are killed in so called honor killings. This is totally against Islam. People must look at what Islam says. If I tell you to not go and kill someone but you do it anyway. Am I to blame? No one would blame me for your action because I warned you against the action. No one would label me a murderer or oppressor because of your action. But this very thing is what takes place in today's society. Muslims are going out and performing actions against Islam, and the people are blaming Islam. Islam has nothing to do with the oppressive actions of its people.

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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> The Burqa act is exactly targeted to one group of people since outside people have show great discomfort against such clothes and associated such clothes with backward culture and terrorists. Simply saying it is only politics is just to fool yourself.


 
lol you did not told me danger of Burqa  Its very stupid of you to associate Burqa a dress code with terrorism when there is never a link between these two. Burqa never been used for terrorism or for any other crimes. Bring some evidence to prove ur false assumptions

Time to grow up baby

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## Burnz

Raja.Pakistani said:


> I feel that you are just jabbering without making any clear point or argument. People look at Islam and only see what is on the surface of it. They do not take the time to dive deep into its depths to find out the truth of its hidden treasures. Most people only see the issue of hijab. They see a muslim woman covered and assume she is oppressed. They then do not go beyond that to find out what Islam truly says regarding women.
> 
> Islam gave women the right to vote, own property, and the right of sustenance over 1400 years ago. The right to vote was only given to women in the west within the last 100 years. The woman in a marriage has the right to keep all her money if she works. She does not have to contribute to the household upkeep or care for any children. Islam places all financial responsibility on the male.
> 
> If a woman inherits, she gets to keep 100% of her inheritance. She does not have to spend any of it on her husband, children, or household upkeep. She does not have to pay a mortgage or car payment. She does not have to pay for food or utilities. She does not have to pay for clothing or childcare. Her money can be spent on anything she wishes. A man however has the responsibility of all financial matters so who has got more rights here : husband or wife?
> 
> Also Islamic law says that the husband does not have the right to force his wife to cook, clean, or care for the children. She can even demand payment for breastfeeding her child. Now most mothers love their children and would not demand payment for breastfeeding but Islam puts this law into effect to show that women are not slaves to their husbands. If a woman chooses to do all of these things, then that is her choice free and clear.
> 
> When a Muslim woman exercises this freedom of choice, she is considered oppressed. This constant thought process of oppression must be removed from the people's minds. All Muslim women are doing is exercising their freedom of choice. This is true liberation. Not the illusion of liberation that is often found in western societies.
> 
> Islam takes care of all aspects of a woman's life. It demands she is given respect and care from her birth until her death. When the Prophet of Islam (pbuh) was once asked after Allah (swt) and His Prophet (pbuh) who has the most rights over me? The Prophet (pbuh) replied "Your mother". Again the Prophet (pbuh) was asked and again He replied your mother. A third time He was asked and a third time he replied, "Your mother". Then on the fourth occasion, He replied your father. This is to show the respect given to women by Islam. Yes it is quite true that Muslims today do not practice this respect. Women are killed in so called honor killings. This is totally against Islam. People must look at what Islam says. If I tell you to not go and kill someone but you do it anyway. Am I to blame? No one would blame me for your action because I warned you against the action. No one would label me a murderer or oppressor because of your action. But this very thing is what takes place in today's society. Muslims are going out and performing actions against Islam, and the people are blaming Islam. Islam has nothing to do with the oppressive actions of its people.


 
Whatever you do in Islamic countries is non of our concern.
Why should we study Islam?

Islam is the worst when comes to Woman Rights.
First of all, its no where mentioned in Islamic scriptures about Burqa. It is made by the Muslim men.

*Don't bring the argument of France is a multicultural society. It is French people who act as Secular and have made it. Don't be under the illusion that French are discriminating. It is themselves who have made what they are and they can change themselves. First make your society as tolerant as theirs. Allow Non-Muslims to practice their religion. Then talk. *

I am with my Chinese Brothers on banning of Burqa.


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## sammi

Kudos to France  it's all about self identity. I mean how in the world are you supposed to get a license or passport covered in that thing?


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## Raja.Pakistani

Burnz said:


> Whatever you do in Islamic countries is non of our concern.
> Why should we study Islam?
> 
> Islam is the worst when comes to Woman Rights.



I am not asking you to study islam but then if you dont know about islam then why you claim that islam is the worst when it comes to women rights hahah it show ur real anti islam mentality  


Burnz said:


> First of all, its no where mentioned in Islamic scriptures about Burqa. It is made by the Muslim men.


Really but you said you dont know about islam lol even if Burqa is unislamic still owmen have right to practice it for cultural reason ..just like women can wear sari..bikini..bra they have right to wera hijab, burqa, chadar whatever..fight for right of women


Burnz said:


> Don't bring the argument of France is a multicultural society. It is French people who act as Secular and have made it. Don't be under the illusion that French are discriminating. It is themselves who have made what they are and they can change themselves. First make your society as tolerant as theirs. Allow Non-Muslims to practice their religion. Then talk.


 
Again i have been discussed the constitution of france with your fellow indian in this topic

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...n-detained-first-day-french-burqa-ban-18.html

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## ephone

Thanks. 

When that guy says that in muslim countries women have better rights. I cannot refrain myself from laughing. I thought for a moment whether he was on drugs or just has his high time. 

PBS has a radio program the other day about yemen people usually got high all the times since they have a cheater opium like stuff there. 




Burnz said:


> Whatever you do in Islamic countries is non of our concern.
> Why should we study Islam?
> 
> Islam is the worst when comes to Woman Rights.
> First of all, its no where mentioned in Islamic scriptures about Burqa. It is made by the Muslim men.
> 
> *Don't bring the argument of France is a multicultural society. It is French people who act as Secular and have made it. Don't be under the illusion that French are discriminating. It is themselves who have made what they are and they can change themselves. First make your society as tolerant as theirs. Allow Non-Muslims to practice their religion. Then talk. *
> 
> I am with my Chinese Brothers on banning of Burqa.

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## ephone

What if a muslim woman refuses to wear burka or hijab??? Will she be not bothered by any muslim men?

What if a muslim woman/man wants to leave islam and converts to another religion? Can she/he do that freely without being harmed?

What if a muslim woman wants to work and have equal rights as man??? Will she be granted such rights?

In current world, state has power over religion. We do not care what the heck your religion is. If you are in our country, you should obey our laws. 

France has said it loud and clear. China has said it loud and clear. U.S. has said it loud and clear. The list goes on and on.

If you do not like our laws, go back to your backward shxt hole places and fxxk youself.

In addition, that two women got what they deserved. 



Raja.Pakistani said:


> I am not asking you to study islam but then if you dont know about islam then why you claim that islam is the worst when it comes to women rights hahah it show ur real anti islam mentality
> 
> Really but you said you dont know about islam lol even if Burqa is unislamic still owmen have right to practice it for cultural reason ..just like women can wear sari..bikini..bra they have right to wera hijab, burqa, chadar whatever..fight for right of women
> 
> 
> Again i have been discussed the constitution of france with your fellow indian in this topic
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...n-detained-first-day-french-burqa-ban-18.html


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## fallstuff

ephone said:


> What disclaimer? Are we not living at the same time as Sarkozy lives???
> 
> Are newly passed French law in this matter not affecting anyone in current France???
> 
> Will such law not create effects in other countries as well in current time???
> 
> The Burqa act is exactly targeted to one group of people since outside people have show great discomfort against such clothes and associated such clothes with backward culture and terrorists. Simply saying it is only politics is just to fool yourself.


 
Your initial claim was a religion can not survive by treating women like garbage. My point is you are wrong.

In reality most of the concerned women cover their faces on their own. It is actually an issue of State impeding on the individuals right. What Sarkozy did is as practical as the anti-sharia law in Oklahoma.

The primal feelings do not change even over thousands of years. Fear is one such feeling. Fear is an integral part of what we believe as self-preservation. 

The issue is politics riding on the fear factor. Christian white European's population growth is either zero or below and forecasted to stay same . Muslim growth rate is much higher. Hence the fear is that someday Muslims will be a much bigger voting block in the Judeo-Christian land and be in a position to impose their will on Europe. 

History is littered with antics like this. Little Sarkozy is not the first one walking this road.

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## ephone

Sharia law? How many modern countries practice such medieval thing? 

To be honest, I do not care what Europeans are doing in their own countries. But France indeed has started to do the right thing.

I am Chinese and I will say there will be zero chance such type of sharia law could be practiced in China. 

It seems that European countries are waking up against such threat. Well, in China, muslim is just a tiny 2% or 3%. In addition, a great majority of Chinese muslims are moderate muslims so that they do not show any threat at all. Those tiny tiny fundamentalists/extremists/terrorists are easily wiped out. Trust me, we Chinese are the most efficient when dealing with those terrorists. 

Bin Laden dare not show his axx in one second in China. He will be fxxk up quite hard if he does.



fallstuff said:


> Your initial claim was a religion can not survive by treating women like garbage. My point is you are wrong.
> 
> In reality most of the concerned women cover their faces on their own. It is actually an issue of State impeding on the individuals right. What Sarkozy did is as practical as the anti-sharia law in Oklahoma.
> 
> The primal feelings do not change even over thousands of years. Fear is one such feeling. Fear is an integral part of what we believe as self-preservation.
> 
> The issue is politics riding on the fear factor. Christian white European's population growth is either zero or below and forecasted to stay same . Muslim growth rate is much higher. Hence the fear is that someday Muslims will be a much bigger voting block in the Judeo-Christian land and be in a position to impose their will on Europe.
> 
> History is littered with antics like this. Little Sarkozy is not the first one walking this road.

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## Farooq

ephone said:


> Sharia law? How many modern countries practice such medieval thing?
> 
> To be honest, I do not care what Europeans are doing in their own countries. But France indeed has started to do the right thing.
> 
> I am Chinese and I will say there will be zero chance such type of sharia law could be practiced in China.
> 
> It seems that European countries are waking up against such threat. Well, in China, muslim is just a tiny 2% or 3%. In addition, a great majority of Chinese muslims are moderate muslims so that they do not show any threat at all. Those tiny tiny fundamentalists/extremists/terrorists are easily wiped out. Trust me, we Chinese are the most efficient when dealing with those terrorists.
> 
> Bin Laden dare not show his axx in one second in China. He will be fxxk up quite hard if he does.



Well, instead of portraying your hypocrisy on this forum, maybe your country should not deal with countries that practice Sharia law such as Saudi Arabia.

Little kid, such hatred toward Muslims does not seem to be the norm of Chinese people I have met in person and on this forum. Seems like your are the exception who would rather lick the boots of the West.

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## fallstuff

ephone said:


> Sharia law? How many modern countries practice such medieval thing?
> 
> To be honest, I do not care what Europeans are doing in their own countries. But France indeed has started to do the right thing.
> 
> I am Chinese and I will say there will be zero chance such type of sharia law could be practiced in China.
> 
> It seems that European countries are waking up against such threat. Well, in China, muslim is just a tiny 2% or 3%. In addition, a great majority of Chinese muslims are moderate muslims so that they do not show any threat at all. Those tiny tiny fundamentalists/extremists/terrorists are easily wiped out. Trust me, we Chinese are the most efficient when dealing with those terrorists.
> 
> Bin Laden dare not show his axx in one second in China. He will be fxxk up quite hard if he does.


 
You believe in creationism and live in Oklahoma, no surprise here. 

The last time they woke up, it was the Muslims waking Europe out of the dark ages !!! 

What the European's are waking up to now?

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## Farooq

fallstuff said:


> You believe in creationism and live in Oklahoma, no surprise here.
> 
> The last time they woke up, it was the Muslims waking Europe out of the dark ages !!!
> 
> What the European's are waking up to now?



Muslims are creationists too


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## ephone

Farooq said:


> Well, instead of portraying your hypocrisy on this forum, maybe your country should not deal with countries that practice Sharia law such as Saudi Arabia.
> 
> Little kid, such hatred toward Muslims does not seem to be the norm of Chinese people I have met in person and on this forum. Seems like your are the exception who would rather lick the boots of the West.


 
The trade is bi-directional. Do not forget that. Without selling its oil, Saudi probably drink its salty water to death.

BTW, I do NOT hate muslims. I have mentioned more than once that I have friends from high school and college who are moderate muslims. In China, we do not have that full-facial covered stupid clothes that muslim men force their women to wear. 

I do have great disgust over those backward practices in certain muslim countries. 

Do not confuse the two.


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## ephone

Apparently you still live in your past glory that happened to die out several hundreds of years ago. 

About Oklahoma, well, I have never lived there. 

You do not like western countries? Well, they represent currently the most advanced technology on earth now. 

The Europeans are waking up to the influx of muslim population that has caused great unrest in their countries. 





fallstuff said:


> You believe in creationism and live in Oklahoma, no surprise here.
> 
> The last time they woke up, it was the Muslims waking Europe out of the dark ages !!!
> 
> What the European's are waking up to now?


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## Farooq

ephone said:


> The trade is bi-directional. Do not forget that. Without selling its oil, Saudi probably drink its salty water to death.
> 
> BTW, I do NOT hate muslims. I have mentioned more than once that I have friends from high school and college who are moderate muslims. In China, we do not have that full-facial covered stupid clothes that muslim men force their women to wear.
> 
> I do have great disgust over those backward practices in certain muslim countries.
> 
> Do not confuse the two.



How old are you ? 12? Didn't the other Muslims on this forum not say that those women protesting against the ban are wearing the veil by choice NOT by force? 
Bi-directional trade is not the issue. I was simply pointing out that since you clearly have negative view towards Islamic law maybe you should buy your oil from elsewhere and not have to deal with Saudi Arabia at all. Moreover, your country is interested in investing in Gwadar port so it can have access to the Middle East (all those fundis!!!) 

Lastly, you have no right to interfere in our religion and tell us how we should practice it... If you don't like the hijab, niqab, etc DO NOT do business with Muslim countries and go f8ck yourself. However, keep in mind, in this world split between the East and West, the natural allies of China will be Muslims.


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## Raja.Pakistani

ephoney : you are stupid and ignorant who want to impose his personal like or dislike on others. Who are you to dictate others about what they should wear. These dress code are backward for you but not for those who wear it by their own personal choice. Do mind ur own buisness as no one forcing ur wife or sister to wear it...grow ur heart and mind and dont repeat same nonsense again and again when you cannot bring any counter arguement to defend ur point. You said women in islam have no right, i gave detail response in previous post which you did not bothered to read and then you said this dress code is threat for security. I asked how? No response again lol so stop this crap now if you cannot bring valid arguement

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## Farooq

Raja.Pakistani said:


> ephoney : you are stupid and ignorant who want to impose his personal like or dislike on others. Who are you to dictate others about what they should wear. These dress code are backward for you but not for those who wear it by their own personal choice. Do mind ur own buisness as no one forcing ur wife or sister to wear it...grow ur heart and mind and dont repeat same nonsense again and again when you cannot bring any counter arguement to defend ur point. You said women in islam have no right, i gave detail response in previous post which you did not bothered to read and then you said this dress code is threat for security. I asked how? No response again lol so stop this crap now if you cannot bring valid arguement


 
I doubt this clown is Chinese... 
Chinese people I have come to know have much more class that this character .. notice how other Chinese members are not defending his argument other than the usual jew from israel and our wonderful bharati hindu friends

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## sammi

Farooq so you're saying that whoever disagrees or has an opinion... they're either a jew or hindu? Dude grow a pair and realize not everyone will agree with your opinion. That includes the Chinese as well.


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## Farooq

sammi said:


> Farooq so you're saying that whoever disagrees or has an opinion... they're either a jew or hindu? Dude grow a pair and realize not everyone will agree with your opinion. That includes the Chinese as well.


 
When did I ever say that everyone will always agree with me?


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## sammi

Farooq said:


> When did I ever say that everyone will always agree with me?


 
*sigh* Nevermind I doubt your brain comprehended anything I was talking about


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## Raja.Pakistani

Farooq said:


> I doubt this clown is Chinese...
> Chinese people I have come to know have much more class that this character .. notice how other Chinese members are not defending his argument other than the usual jew from israel and our wonderful bharati hindu friends


 
You are right . He look like hitler lol i mean at least read what others say or bring any counter arguement. He was doing criticism for sake of cricticism.


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## ephone

First, I do believe some muslim women wear it voluntarily. I have never denied it. However, there are also many muslim women who are intimidated by their muslim males to wear it involuntarily.

Second, about not buying oil from Saudi, well, how about modern world does not sell anything to Saudi? How does that sound? Do not over-estimate Saudi's power. 

Third, about Gwadar port, if you are from Pakistan, you should appreciate China's selfless help towards Pakistan. China has done far more for Pakistan than the other way around. BTW, how much do we ask you for return? Considering what U.S. has asked for Pakistan for return when U.S. gives anything to Pakistan, China is far more generous. Pakistan need China far more than China need Pakistan. 

Fourth, I do not interfere with your religion. What you practice behind your door, it is none of my business if it does not hurt any people including women as well. However, in western countries, or any other non religious countries, your religion does need obey the law within each country. Your religion is smaller compared with the state power. We do not care whoever your god is. When the law asks you to take that burqa off, you have to take it off. 

China indeed has common interest with muslim countries in many levels. However, that does not make we have to listen to those nonsense practised in certain muslim countries including forcing women to wear burqa and etc, taking away women's equal rights, practising honor killing and harboring those rapists, killing those who want to leave islam and convert to other religions, practicing those brutal circumcision on virgin women and etc. 

The government may tolerate in certain sense but in civilian level, I do have to express my disgust over those brutal backward practices in certain muslim countries.

BTW, none of the muslims here seem to like to answer my questions posted earlier:

What if a muslim woman refuses to wear burka or hijab??? Will she be not bothered/harmed by any muslim men?

What if a muslim woman/man wants to leave islam and converts to another religion? Can she/he do that freely without being harmed?

What if a muslim woman wants to work and have equal rights as man??? Will she be granted such rights?

In the end, for those who question whether I am Chinese, I am 100% Chinese from Northeast China. 



Farooq said:


> How old are you ? 12? Didn't the other Muslims on this forum not say that those women protesting against the ban are wearing the veil by choice NOT by force?
> Bi-directional trade is not the issue. I was simply pointing out that since you clearly have negative view towards Islamic law maybe you should buy your oil from elsewhere and not have to deal with Saudi Arabia at all. Moreover, your country is interested in investing in Gwadar port so it can have access to the Middle East (all those fundis!!!)
> 
> Lastly, you have no right to interfere in our religion and tell us how we should practice it... If you don't like the hijab, niqab, etc DO NOT do business with Muslim countries and go f8ck yourself. However, keep in mind, in this world split between the East and West, the natural allies of China will be Muslims.

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## Burnz

Farooq said:


> I doubt this clown is Chinese...
> Chinese people I have come to know have much more class that this character .. notice how other Chinese members are not defending his argument other than the usual jew from israel and our wonderful bharati hindu friends


 
The Hindus are with their Chinese brothers.

Islamic Men themselves can wear Burkha if they want in Islamic countries.

What if China bans Burkha? Non of your Concern. It is Chinese people and Chinese Government. They decide theirs.

Similarly, It is for the French to decide in France *and same for the Indians.*

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## Farooq

ephone said:


> First, I do believe some muslim women wear it voluntarily. I have never denied it. However, there are also many muslim women who are intimidated by their muslim males to wear it involuntarily.



This should be none of your concern.. please stay out of our business 



> Second, about not buying oil from Saudi, well, how about modern world does not sell anything to Saudi? How does that sound? Do not over-estimate Saudi's power.



Seems like you have trouble comprehending a simple statement. Read the previous post I was not talking about the rest of the world. I was only talking about China. Given the current climate and it's rapidly growing economy, China would never boycott Saudi oil based on an ideological difference.




> Third, about Gwadar port, if you are from Pakistan, you should appreciate China's selfless help towards Pakistan. China has done far more for Pakistan than the other way around. BTW, how much do we ask you for return? Considering what U.S. has asked for Pakistan for return when U.S. gives anything to Pakistan, China is far more generous. Pakistan need China far more than China need Pakistan.



I have said many times on this forum that as a Pakistani I appreciate the assistance from China. In fact, I believe China is a stronger and more trust-worthy ally of Pakistan than most Muslims countries not just non-Muslim countries. 



> Fourth, I do not interfere with your religion. What you practice behind your door, it is none of my business if it does not hurt any people including women as well. However, in western countries, or any other non religious countries, your religion does need obey the law within each country. Your religion is smaller compared with the state power. We do not care whoever your god is. When the law asks you to take that burqa off, you have to take it off.



My opinion is that in response to anti-Isalmic laws in the eurotrash countries, Muslims should migrate back to their native countries and work to better their motherland. I know it is easier said than done.




> China indeed has common interest with muslim countries in many levels. However, that does not make we have to listen to those nonsense practised in certain muslim countries including forcing women to wear burqa and etc, taking away women's equal rights, practising honor killing and harboring those rapists, killing those who want to leave islam and convert to other religions, practicing those brutal circumcision on virgin women and etc.



A lot of the the things you mentioned have nothing to do with Islam. You have been watching too much fox News 



> The government may tolerate in certain sense but in civilian level, I do have to express my disgust over those brutal backward practices in certain muslim countries.



blah.. blah ... blah.. more nonsense...


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## Farooq

Burnz said:


> Islamic Men themselves can wear Burkha if they want in Islamic countries.
> 
> What if China bans Burkha? Non of your Concern. It is Chinese people and Chinese Government. They decide theirs.
> 
> Similarly, It is for the French to decide in France *and same for the Indians.*


*




The Hindus are with their Chinese brothers.

Click to expand...

Tell that to your bharati media 

I can guarantee you that China will NOT pass such laws. Why? Because China has many common interests with the Muslims/Islamic world, hence China would not pass such laws to disrupt relations with the Muslim world.*


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## Hawk Eyes

i hope india will pass a law like the united states has were cows cannot roam freely in the streets.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Farooq said:


> Tell that to your bharati media
> 
> I can guarantee you that China will NOT pass such laws. Why? Because China has many common interests with the Muslims/Islamic world, hence China would not pass such laws to disrupt relations with the Muslim world.



India will not pass such a law as in France.

However, I am not aware as to how you can guarantee what China will do.

Are you aware of the restrictions that China already has as far as Islam is concerned?

Such restrictions as in China are not there in India.

Therefore, first know you facts before you comment and stand guarantee.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Hawk Eyes said:


> i hope india will pass a law like the united states has were cows cannot roam freely in the streets.



What has cows got to do with burkhas?

If I understand correctly this thread is about France and its banning the full faced veil!


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## Burnz

Maybe Pakistanis are designing Burkhas for dogs and cows .


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## ChineseTiger1986

It is just an excuse to hide their true nature of Islamophobia.

The West has stereotyped the Muslim people as the terrorists since long time.

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## MilSpec

In sharia law to prove rape you must provide three male witness... So i am guessing these numbers of rapes reported in islamic countries is a joke....

If there were 300 people tomorrow on the street of paris wearing burqas protected by the constitution, i wonder how many jihadis would use it as disguise to commit mass murders...

btw this whole burqa business was defined by men ... why do men need to tell women what she should wear or not....




Haseebullah said:


> 1.When will you understand to respect the teaching of religions.This is exactly what Islam prohibits a woman from doing.
> 
> 2.Well Islamic states have relatively very low rape count unlike Non-Islamic states:
> Crime Statistics > Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country
> 
> Showing latest available data.
> Rank Countries Amount
> # 1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
> # 2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
> # 3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
> # 4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
> # 5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
> # 6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
> # 7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
> # 8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
> # 9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
> # 10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people
> # 11 Papua New Guinea: 0.233544 per 1,000 people
> # 12 New Zealand: 0.213383 per 1,000 people
> # 13 United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000 people
> # 14 Spain: 0.140403 per 1,000 people
> # 15 France: 0.139442 per 1,000 people
> # 16 Korea, South: 0.12621 per 1,000 people
> # 17 Mexico: 0.122981 per 1,000 people
> # 18 Norway: 0.120836 per 1,000 people
> # 19 Costa Rica: 0.118277 per 1,000 people
> # 20 Venezuela: 0.115507 per 1,000 people
> # 21 Finland: 0.110856 per 1,000 people
> # 22 Netherlands: 0.100445 per 1,000 people
> # 23 Denmark: 0.0914948 per 1,000 people
> # 24 Germany: 0.0909731 per 1,000 people
> # 25 Bulgaria: 0.0795973 per 1,000 people
> # 26 Chile: 0.0782179 per 1,000 people
> # 27 Thailand: 0.0626305 per 1,000 people
> # 28 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0623785 per 1,000 people
> # 29 Poland: 0.062218 per 1,000 people
> # 30 Sri Lanka: 0.0599053 per 1,000 people
> # 31 Hungary: 0.0588588 per 1,000 people
> # 32 Estonia: 0.0547637 per 1,000 people
> # 33 Ireland: 0.0542829 per 1,000 people
> # 34 Switzerland: 0.0539458 per 1,000 people
> # 35 Belarus: 0.0514563 per 1,000 people
> # 36 Uruguay: 0.0512295 per 1,000 people
> # 37 Lithuania: 0.0508757 per 1,000 people
> # 38 Malaysia: 0.0505156 per 1,000 people
> # 39 Romania: 0.0497089 per 1,000 people
> # 40 Czech Republic: 0.0488234 per 1,000 people
> # 41 Russia: 0.0486543 per 1,000 people
> # 42  Latvia: 0.0454148 per 1,000 people
> # 43 Moldova: 0.0448934 per 1,000 people
> # 44 Colombia: 0.0433254 per 1,000 people
> # 45 Slovenia: 0.0427648 per 1,000 people
> # 46 Italy: 0.0402045 per 1,000 people
> # 47 Portugal: 0.0364376 per 1,000 people
> # 48 Tunisia: 0.0331514 per 1,000 people
> # 49 Zambia: 0.0266383 per 1,000 people
> # 50 Ukraine: 0.0244909 per 1,000 people
> # 51 Slovakia: 0.0237525 per 1,000 people
> # 52 Mauritius: 0.0219334 per 1,000 people
> # 53 Turkey: 0.0180876 per 1,000 people
> # 54 Japan: 0.017737 per 1,000 people
> # 55 Hong Kong: 0.0150746 per 1,000 people
> # 56 India: 0.0143187 per 1,000 people
> # 57 Qatar: 0.0139042 per 1,000 people
> # 58 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0132029 per 1,000 people
> # 59 Greece: 0.0106862 per 1,000 people
> # 60 Georgia: 0.0100492 per 1,000 people
> # 61 Armenia: 0.00938652 per 1,000 people
> # 62 Indonesia: 0.00567003 per 1,000 people
> # 63 Yemen: 0.0038597 per 1,000 people
> # 64 Azerbaijan: 0.00379171 per 1,000 people
> # 65 Saudi Arabia: 0.00329321 per 1,000 people


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## MilSpec

Its time for US and rest of Europe to stand up against Taliban culture

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## sur

*BUMP...
.
*


sur said:


> *What is asked in Quran & Hadees is following... Those "Ninjas" are later inventions....*
> -
> -
> -
> *Q:24:31:*And say thou unto the believing women that they shall lower their sights and guard their private parts and shall not disclose their adornment except that which appeareth thereof; *and they shall draw their scarves over their bosoms*; and shall not disclose their adornment except unto their husbands or their fathers or their husbands fathers or their sons or their husbands sons or their brothers or their brothers sons or their sisters sons or their Women or those whom their right hands own or male followers wanting in sex desire or children not acquainted with the privy parts of women; and they Shall not strike their feet so that there be known that which they hide of their adornment. And turn penitently unto Allah ye all, O ye believers, haply ye may thrive!
> 
> 
> *Q:33:59:*O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should *cast their outer garments over themselves *"&#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1761;&#1729;&#1616;&#1606;&#1617;&#1614; " _(when abroad)_: that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested: and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (59)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Abu dawood:27:4092:* Chapter : How much beauty can a woman display.
> 
> Narated By 'Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin : Asma, daughter of Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (pbuh) turned his attention from her. He said: O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body *except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands*.


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## fallstuff

Burnz said:


> Maybe Pakistanis are designing Burkhas for dogs and cows .


 
Indian folks are far more creative,

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## iPakMan

fallstuff said:


> Indian folks are far more creative,


 
Google insights for search parameters: Worldwide web search, 2004 to present, all categories.

horse sex - Pakistan
goat sex - Pakistan
pig sex - Pakistan
dog sex - Pakistan
animal sex - Pakistan
girls with animals - Pakistan
animal **** - Trinidad and Tobago (Pakistan is #4)
*animal sex video - Bangladesh (Pakistan is #2)*
hardcore animal sex - Pakistan
xxx animal sex - Pakistan
real animal sex - Pakistan

You were insulting Hindus? We can google too and google taught me something interesting about Bangladeshis as well.

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## ephone

Have you ever asked why so many countries are wary of islam religion or have islamophobia? A religion with so many members who do not repent for its wrongdoings but find this or that excuse to justify the "cause"?

You should feel lucky that you are not born out of a muslim family. Otherwise, when you have any thought of leaving islam to either become an atheist or convert to another religion, you would be stoned to death. Well, such death is one of the "honor killings". 

You see, so far, still no muslim members answered my questions yet. It is not many, just three. Are they too afraid to answer them??? Is that too hard to answer??? Or they will say those are questions that cause islamophobia???




ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is just an excuse to hide their nature of Islamophobia.
> 
> The West has stereotyped the Muslim people as the terrorists since long time.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

Burnz said:


> The Hindus are with their Chinese brothers.


 You made him your brother because he feel a piece of clothe as disgusting. Its not surprise why any bigot and hater of islam become your borther lol 



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is just an excuse to hide their nature of Islamophobia.
> 
> The West has stereotyped the Muslim people as the terrorists since long time.


 
You are absolutely right. They made this law to ban hijab only for this obvious reason which is islamophobia. How a nation could be threatend with a piece of clothe. Its actually mental attitude or negativity exist in mind of peoples more than practical problems of hijab in soceity 



iPakMan said:


> Google insights for search parameters: Worldwide web search, 2004 to present, all categories.
> 
> horse sex - Pakistan
> goat sex - Pakistan
> pig sex - Pakistan
> dog sex - Pakistan
> animal sex - Pakistan
> girls with animals - Pakistan
> animal **** - Trinidad and Tobago (Pakistan is #4)
> *animal sex video - Bangladesh (Pakistan is #2)*
> hardcore animal sex - Pakistan
> xxx animal sex - Pakistan
> real animal sex - Pakistan


 
You are getting pathetic in an attempt to bash Pakistan. You dont actually know how google trend work. If you just change the wording you will totally get different result for example look here

*Rapist* 1) Usa 2) Ireland 3) Canada 4) Aus

Google Trends: Rapist

* sex* 1) Vietnam 2) India 3) Egypt

Google Trends: sex

****** Ireland 2) uk 3) Canada 4) AUS 5) India

Google Trends: ****

*Child Pornography* 1) south africa 2) Philphine 3) India 4) Indonesia

http://www.google.com/trends?q=child+****&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0


*sex video * 1) indonesia 2) india

Google Trends: sex video

lol so type different word and you will get your desired result lol

and also would you like to tell me who has got big industry of **** and making such things available for common peoples..


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## Hawk Eyes

i pakman is an indian.


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## IndianTiger

thread gone out of subject. m sure.


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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> You should feel lucky that you are not born out of a muslim family.


 Then why you bother to worry about islam and muslim when you are lucky person on this planet  Leave them alone 


ephone said:


> when you have any thought of leaving islam to either become an atheist or convert to another religion, you would be stoned to death. Well, such death is one of the "honor killings"


Honor killing is cultural practice. It has nothing to do with Islam. Read my post in previous page . why you ingnored it lol as far as belief concern its personal matter between you and your God. I mean belief is something which come from deep heart. if a muslim is not following or statisfied with islam then there is no point of putting gun over his head to remain muslim as there are many agnostic muslims there.


ephone said:


> You see, so far, still no muslim members answered my questions yet. It is not many, just three. Are they too afraid to answer them??? Is that too hard to answer??? Or they will say those are questions that cause islamophobia???


 Your questions that women have not as much as right as men have been answered in previous post which you did not bothered to read. In fact i told that in many places muslim women have more rights than men..go and read that post instead of crying here


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## fallstuff

ephone said:


> Have you ever asked why so many countries are wary of islam religion or have islamophobia? *A religion with so many members who do not repent for its wrongdoings but find this or that excuse to justify the "cause"?* (1)
> 
> You should feel lucky that you are not born out of a muslim family. Otherwise, *when you have any thought of leaving islam to either become an atheist or convert to another religion, you would be stoned to death. Well, such death is one of the "honor killings".
> * (2)
> You see, so far, still no muslim members answered my questions yet. It is not many, just three. Are they too afraid to answer them??? Is that too hard to answer??? Or they will say those are questions that cause islamophobia??? (3)


 
1) Look at hindu mothers in India. They kill their newborn girl by the millions man. Some never get to see the light of the day. 

2) You are a liar. There is nothing like that.

3) What question bud ? Burqa is not required for the women. Its a twisted Saudi interpretation. 

350 people in France where found to be wearing Burqa. More than half of them wear it because thats how they like it. This number has been repeated with source multiple times in this forum, yet you choose to ignore it.


I smell Cu*ry in your post. More like a member of the Boys in Khaki.

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## Raja.Pakistani

fallstuff said:


> I smell Cu*ry in your post. More like a member of the Boys in Khaki.


 
you got it

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## Burnz

Raja Pakistani Answer me:

What if a Muslim converts to Christianity? What will be the reaction of his relatives,friends? What is the Chance that He will Not be Killed by fellow Muslims?

Why does a Rape Victim needs 4 Witness to prove the Rape Crime? What if she was Raped in a Closed Room?
How will she bring Witness?

Does Islam accept Laboratry Test or Post-Mortem Reports as Evidence?

Why is the Rape Victim Stoned to Death if the Rape Victim is unable to bring 4 Witnesses and those Stupid Courts do not accept the Evidences?

@ *Ephone Brother*

Pakistan's Rape Law is based on the above Model whereby if the Victim is unable to proof that She was Raped, the Rape Victim gets Jailed.


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## Burnz

fallstuff said:


> 1) Look at hindu mothers in India. They kill their newborn girl by the millions man. Some never get to see the light of the day.
> 
> 2) You are a liar. There is nothing like that.
> 
> 3) What question bud ? Burqa is not required for the women. Its a twisted Saudi interpretation.
> 
> 350 people in France where found to be wearing Burqa. More than half of them wear it because thats how they like it. This number has been repeated with source multiple times in this forum, yet you choose to ignore it.
> 
> 
> I smell Cu*ry in your post. More like a member of the Boys in Khaki.


 
1) That is Female Forticide. The Reason is Male Preference in *Indian* Society. The same is True for China.

2) Why do Islamic Men force Women to wear the Burkha?

Nah, It is Pork Smell hidden somewhere in the Burkha .


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Burnz said:


> Pakistan's Rape Law is based on the above Model whereby if the Victim is unable to proof that She was Raped, the Rape Victim gets Jailed.


 
it's not smart for an indian to talk about rape victims when your country has 18 rapes taking place every hour -- the fastest growing crime there. 

our media is very powerful now so rape victims who do report the crime will usually not see their attackers go unpunished.....the problem is that rape victims feel shame so sometimes dont report the crime due to self-perceived stigma. 


the topic however is on the newly passed French law so i dont know how rape, condoms being too large for indian men, or other such things are figuring into this debate


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

*BURNZ @*

I have got the answer of all these questions you raised but topic we are discussing here is that why France started ban on veil? Its not about discussing Sharia law. Make another topic if you want to discuss sharia law which only exist in Saudia arabia and Iran..

You tell me the reasons for which French president made this laws to ban a dress code? Are they valid reasons? How Choice of wearing Veil of a woman hurt anyone else ?


----------



## iPakMan

Hawk Eyes said:


> i pakman is an indian.


 
No, i just really like them. 
And actually there is a huge difference between sex between humans and sex with animals, maybe Raja you just can`t tell the difference.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

Burnz said:


> 2) Why do Islamic Men force Women to wear the Burkha?


where is evidence women don't wear it by choice ?


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

but its time get back to topic


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

iPakMan said:


> No, i just really like them.
> And actually there is a huge difference between sex between humans and sex with animals, maybe Raja you just can`t tell the difference.


 
Who make these animal videos  I am sure its not pakistani law who allow it

Rest again i can use your google trend to prove that others countries watch such videos more than paksitani lol

better you get back on topic


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> Have you ever asked why so many countries are wary of islam religion or have islamophobia? A religion with so many members who do not repent for its wrongdoings but find this or that excuse to justify the "cause"?
> 
> You should feel lucky that you are not born out of a muslim family. Otherwise, when you have any thought of leaving islam to either become an atheist or convert to another religion, you would be stoned to death. Well, such death is one of the "honor killings".
> 
> You see, so far, still no muslim members answered my questions yet. It is not many, just three. Are they too afraid to answer them??? Is that too hard to answer??? Or they will say those are questions that cause islamophobia???


 
This guy was a former muslim, now he is an atheist.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This guy was a former muslim, now he is an atheist.


 
There is verse 256 in surah 2 in Quran "There is no compulsion in religion" 

But again i dont know why peoples diverted the topic from veil to sharia law. They can create another topic for discussing all the propaganda topic about islam


----------



## Soumitra

Raja.Pakistani said:


> *Secular state* Religion don't play any role in government decision. *Peoples can practice their religion in their private day to day lives* but Government will not use any religious scripture to make laws for its peoples. Secular state will be based on secular principles.
> 
> Now question arise : Is France a secular state or theocratic state? If they claim to be secular then then they should have secular laws and these laws give freedom to peoples to *practice their religion in their private life* as long as they don't hurt any other member of the society.


 
I think you are missing the operative word *Private* life not *public*


----------



## iPakMan

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Who make these animal videos  I am sure its not pakistani law who allow it
> 
> Rest again i can use your google trend to prove that others countries watch such videos more than paksitani lol
> 
> better you get back on topic


No, Pakistan is number 1. You should be proud, that is one way to bond with animals.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

iPakMan said:


> No, Pakistan is number 1. You should be proud, that is one way to bond with animals.


 You did not answer who actual make such videos and who are those who do sex with animals in these videos? Are they pakistani? lol 

Again ur dear google trend

*Animal **** * No1 ) India 2) indonesia 3) Turkey lol

Google Trends: animal ****


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

^ i think you are missing the point that wearing specific dress is a private personal choice no matter if you wear it on street or inside your home. If woman have freedom to wear bikini and bra in public places why not hijab or veil or any other dress.


----------



## ovarel

Hawk Eyes said:


> i pakman is an indian.


 
lol..no he is not an indian,he is a typical israeli..he can suck anyone who supports israeli policies(no need to mention that islamophobia also serves their policies)..if some day india opposes israel,we will see the same guy spitting venom to indians and insulting their culture,religion etc..this is how israelis do..and yes,its disgusting.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## ephone

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This guy was a former muslim, now he is an atheist.


 
First, he is turkish and Turkey is a secular country. That is very much different. 

He will not likely see the day light again if he were in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi, Yemen, Sudan... and etc.

A apostate muslim will have much less trouble if he is in western countries or secular countries, though he may still have danger. Reports of honor killing of those apostates indeed happened in U.S., Canada, Australia and etc. as well.

The problem we focus on now is what happens in muslim countries that lack tolerate or have no tolerance at all.


----------



## tallboy123

As far as i know,a 23 yrs old muslim girl i know,doesn't wear burka or niqab etc etc..she says she hates it..and doesn't like that islamic rule and her parents doesn't force it on her...Still unmarried..
I don't know after she marries her husband may force her to wear the black veil ..Bad luck for her


----------



## ephone

How is ""There is no compulsion in religion" actually followed or carried out in muslim world???

You let a muslim go freely to become an apostate for another religion without any harm done???



Raja.Pakistani said:


> There is verse 256 in surah 2 in Quran "There is no compulsion in religion"
> 
> But again i dont know why peoples diverted the topic from veil to sharia law. They can create another topic for discussing all the propaganda topic about islam


----------



## ephone

You call me a liar saying what I have mentioned never happened??? Are you Sadam's information secretary???



fallstuff said:


> 1) Look at hindu mothers in India. They kill their newborn girl by the millions man. Some never get to see the light of the day.
> 
> 2) You are a liar. There is nothing like that.
> 
> 3) What question bud ? Burqa is not required for the women. Its a twisted Saudi interpretation.
> 
> 350 people in France where found to be wearing Burqa. More than half of them wear it because thats how they like it. This number has been repeated with source multiple times in this forum, yet you choose to ignore it.
> 
> 
> I smell Cu*ry in your post. More like a member of the Boys in Khaki.


----------



## ovarel

ephone said:


> First, he is turkish and Turkey is a secular country. That is very much different.


 
ignorance personified..do you know how many "honor killings" happen in Turkey?and also they are barely getting imprisoned..Turkey is not only secular but militant secular..no sign of islamic laws but still the punishments are so few..its a cultural thing,nothing else.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> The problem we focus on now is what happens in muslim countries that lack tolerate or have no tolerance at all.


 
But here its you who is showing lack of tolerance towards right of women to wear her desired dress

How can you know that a muslim is following islam or have atheist or agnostic thoughts in his/her minds or heart? Belief reside in deep heart where no one can reach so its not easy to judge someone. There are many poeples who are muslim by name but islam is not in their lives even in saudia arabia 

did you read the verse of Quran " there is no compulsion in religion"

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## ovarel

ephone said:


> The problem we focus on now is what happens in muslim countries that lack tolerate or have no tolerance at all.


 
how many people getting executed in China? where is the uber-tolerant chinese society?


----------



## tallboy123

Raja.Pakistani said:


> You did not answer who actual make such videos and who are those who do sex with animals in these videos? Are they pakistani? lol
> 
> Again ur dear google trend
> 
> *Animal **** * No1 ) India 2) indonesia 3) Turkey lol
> 
> Google Trends: animal ****


 


here's the another one
Google Trends: animal sex
pakistan ranks 1st..
u beat us in this 
and in many other tags u are in 1st place..good job


----------



## iPakMan

ovarel said:


> lol..no he is not an indian,he is a typical israeli..he can suck anyone who supports israeli policies(no need to mention that islamophobia also serves their policies)..if some day india opposes israel,we will see the same guy spitting venom to indians and insulting their culture,religion etc..this is how israelis do..and yes,its disgusting.



The only thing not disgusting about you, your avatar, your speech, your way of thought or your grammar is the flag under your name.
I like the color and the crescent. 
@Raja
Do the same to goat sex and lemme know what comes out.
Idk who does animal **** but i`d imagine it would be European countries, but the fact that pakistanis would rather watch someone f*cking animals than a woman is quite disturbing.
Isn`t it forbidden to masturbate in Islam? I know it is definitely in Shia sector bur also in certain Sunni sectors as well.


----------



## Soumitra

A french woman wont roam the streets of Paris in a Bikini. She will do it in a beach or swimming pool which is the correct place to wear a bikini. Similarly a muslim woman can wear the burqa in their homes or mosques and no one will bother them. But they have no right to wear it in a public place


----------



## tallboy123

here is a joke
when i searched for bollywood in google trends....
it was pakistan at first rank
Google Trends: bollywood


----------



## ovarel

iPakMan said:


> The only thing not disgusting about you, your avatar, your speech, your way of thought or your grammar is the flag under your name.
> I like the color and the crescent.



you will never give up the grammar "argument",dont you?
it makes me think that its the best you can.

btw whats with my avatar?he is a cool guy.


----------



## Soumitra

And for those who say that Muslim woman wear the burqa in their own free will there are many woman living in old delhi (a conservative muslim neighborhood) who wear a burqa in old delhi when they are near their families but when they hang out with friends or go to college they remove the burqa and wear jeans and t shirts


----------



## ovarel

altough i think israelis are incurable,i dont see any good in feeding their lunacy.


----------



## tallboy123

Hawk Eyes said:


> so tell me what kind of pathetic people almost get their entire race wiped out?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> say hello to your father you big nose midget.


 
for all those inhumane acts he lost the war


----------



## AstanoshKhan

A thought provoking discussion about this ban on CNN. You guys got to watch this - too much fruitful stuff in there.


----------



## tallboy123

Hawk Eyes said:


> now look here kyte
> 
> look what i have waiting for you and your whole family.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then afterwards (i think this is your grandmother.)


 
Post reported: personal attacks


----------



## blackops

not required anymore thanks t faz


----------



## ovarel

the thread is f.ucked up..where is ephone? i have been waiting answers from him.


----------



## hamtaro

Good, i dont want Bhurkas in europe. People feel offended by these chothing and many are scared.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## fallstuff

ephone said:


> You call me a liar saying what I have mentioned never happened??? Are you Sadam's information secretary???


 
You are a pathological liar. You hate Muslims. Haters like you sooner or later get kicked out.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

iPakMan said:


> @Raja
> Do the same to goat sex and lemme know what comes out.


here is search for goat **** hahah  pakistani is not even in top ten
1)New zeland 2) australia 3) india 
Google Trends: goat ****
i told you that you are naive who don't know how google trend works you can change words to get ur desire results

now get a life and stop behaving like kid and discuss real issue like a mature person instead of making urself wet with topic like masturbation and **** etc


----------



## justanobserver

fallstuff said:


> Cooking his curry !!


 
Oh ephone is definitely Chinese. Check out his previous posts


----------



## fallstuff

iPakMan said:


> Hehe, cute. Who`s gonna put me there? You? Oh you simple little thing, every man and woman who joins the army learns Krav Maga, even our women can break you limb from limb, *you pathetic bastard*.


 
Post reported !!

---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------




Hawk Eyes said:


> shut up you midget. NIGGER. fu.ck you and your fuckin african brothers. N.I.G.G.E.R.


 
Control your urges buddy !!


----------



## justanobserver

So much love on this thread


----------



## tallboy123

Hawk Eyes said:


> sure, just like 7 million you sucm kikes defended yourself against your daddy hitler who fucked all you jews in the .


 
 Six day war...
Remember what happened to all those Muslim countries????
Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## twoplustwoisfour

--------Deleted----------------

No point getting banned over these trolls.


----------



## tallboy123

Hawk Eyes said:


> shut up you midget. NIGGER. fu.ck you and your fuckin african brothers. N.I.G.G.E.R.


guys report this post, i have reported


----------



## justanobserver

I can now understand the contempt the West Pakistanis must have had for Bangladeshis


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

you guys are a bunch of clowns......

get a job


----------



## Roybot




----------



## Raja.Pakistani

Soumitra said:


> A french woman wont roam the streets of Paris in a Bikini. She will do it in a beach or swimming pool which is the correct place to wear a bikini. Similarly a muslim woman can wear the burqa in their homes or mosques and no one will bother them. But they have no right to wear it in a public place


Where did you get this from ?

Should i say Indian women must have freedom to wear sari inside their homes and when they get outside home they should be wearing mini skirt or the dress which French president approve? Get some sense in ur head and read my previous reply to JDME where i said that :
The 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Mans and of the Citizen and guarantees the right to freedom of religion in France.

"No one may be questioned about his opinions, [and the] same [for] religious [opinions], provided that their manifestation does not trouble the public order established by the law."


----------



## tallboy123

Thank u Mod...


----------



## blackops

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Where did you get this from ?
> 
> Should i say Indian women must have freedom to wear sari inside their homes and when they get outside home they should be wearing mini skirt or the dress which French president approve? Get some sense in ur head and read my previous reply to JDME where i said that :
> The 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Mans and of the Citizen and guarantees the right to freedom of religion in France.
> 
> "No one may be questioned about his opinions, [and the] same [for] religious [opinions], provided that their manifestation does not trouble the public order established by the law."


 
brother they are no against hijab they are against burqa for only one reason it covers your whole body and then any once can commit a crime if a lady wear sari there is no or very little chances she covers her face


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

Soumitra said:


> And for those who say that Muslim woman wear the burqa in their own free will there are many woman living in old delhi (a conservative muslim neighborhood) who wear a burqa in old delhi when they are near their families but when they hang out with friends or go to college they remove the burqa and wear jeans and t shirts


 
Dont paint everyone with same brush,,, again in france there are laws that no one can force anything on anyone else


----------



## tallboy123

So any chance of france rolling back this law???


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

blackops said:


> brother they are no against hijab they are against burqa for only one reason it covers your whole body and then any once can commit a crime if a lady wear sari there is no or very little chances she covers her face


 
again there is not a single incident where Burqa was used for doing crime or terrorism so i don't get it when peoples associate covering whole body with crimes how they are relevant?
My personal choice is very much same like those who prefer hijab or decent clothe over burqa but i feel i dont have right to impose my own like or dislike on others who wear it for culture reasons or for islamic reasons whatever


----------



## blackops

tallboy123 said:


> So any chance of france rolling back this law???


 
no they wont this trend will just carry on in hole of europe


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

tallboy123 said:


> So any chance of france rolling back this law???


 
we can raise our voice..we can fight for the rights of women . We can find the flaws in their logic ...rest it don't matter if they change it or not..if they dont change it then they will be oppressing the right of those women


----------



## tallboy123

blackops said:


> no they wont this trend will just carry on in hole of europe


 
Well,then i don't have anything to debate here....


----------



## jdme

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Where did you get this from ?
> 
> Should i say Indian women must have freedom to wear sari inside their homes and when they get outside home they should be wearing mini skirt or the dress which French president approve? Get some sense in ur head and read my previous reply to JDME where i said that :
> The 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Mans and of the Citizen and guarantees the right to freedom of religion in France.
> 
> "No one may be questioned about his opinions, [and the] same [for] religious [opinions], provided that their manifestation does not trouble the public order established by the law."


 
Hold on! Muslim women don't wear anything under their Burqa? How are you comparing it to a Sari? Can a Sari hide your face? Who told you that French women wear min skirt? Jesus, do you really live in UK? 

You keep repeating this thing without even bothering to understand it:
_
No one may be questioned about his opinions, [and the] same [for] religious [opinions], provided that* their manifestation does not trouble the public order established by the law*_

Do you understand why I have put part of it in bold?


----------



## Roybot

If I start walking around with a balaclava on my face tomorrow, I ll surely end up at a police station.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

jdme said:


> Hold on! Muslim women don't wear anything under their Burqa? How are you comparing it to a Sari? Can a Sari hide your face? Who told you that French women wear min skirt? Jesus, do you really live in UK?
> 
> You keep repeating this thing without even bothering to understand it:
> _
> No one may be questioned about his opinions, [and the] same [for] religious [opinions], provided that* their manifestation does not trouble the public order established by the law*_
> 
> Do you understand why I have put part of it in bold?


 
I am not comparing sari with burqa but i am comparing one dress code with other. One cultural dress with other. I understand very well the bold part and I was repeating the same things again and again that in secular country peopels are free to practice their religion or culture as long as they don't hurt anyone else

How does wearing Burqa bring trouble in public? which trouble French peoples faced because of burqa before implementation of this ban?

Questions need to be answer


----------



## ARSENAL6

iPakMan said:


> Why does everything bad have to end with "Inshallah"? And what if Allah doesn`t will it, then what?
> Good for the french.


 

What Palestinian has ever said about the destruction of Israel and ended with Inshallah that brought you to type such rubbish here. 



iPakMan said:


> And what if Allah doesn't will it, then what?.



Like you have the power of the unseen and that YOU know what Allah(swt) thinks (Astugfullah ! quite literally) How the heck do you know what Allah/ YHWH wills regardless een if you were just saying. Its well established fact that the Jews are cursed by Allah/YHWH (swt) for disobeying him by not having their own land. Even Rabbis say this
So yes INshallah the destruction of Israel will happen - not mentioning the fact that this land and its ideology goes against everything that the Torah has mentioned.

If you want to make derogatory comments on peoples religion and belief then don't cry when people attack you as it has already shown.
Furthermore anyone, that includes Muslims who want to do the same will know it too well that making a mockery of this true religion will only result on their suffering. Muslim DON'T want to wish such curse on Muslim and Non-Muslim alike but these filamentary comment don't help.

Besides Never underestimate the power of the unseen.These are Gods work and believe me His punishment thorough and swift. Also God listens more fiercely on those who are suffering, suffered especially to slaves who listen to him like doing 5 daily prayers, fasting and doing good deeds
Inshallah is used when Muslims are striving and it is mostly effective when they or their Muslim counter parts are suffering like whats happening to Muslim women in France .
ALl Prophets from Adam, Alysia, Solomon, Jesus and Mohammid peace be upon them followed Islam 






AS for the Banning of the Burqa,

the only thing it will make things worst for the non-muslim around the world. Sarkozy is a real idiot.

Just for the record
The Burka is not an Islamic dress code as its is known by Muslim scholars that in Islam a woman should cover her head and back of her neck and should cover her body in a way that is not revealing to the opposite sex. Doesn't say anything about covering the face, in fact there is something about seeing someone face for recognition and such.
There is a lot of Muslim women in MUSLIM SOCIETY that don't wear the Burka.

THis Ban is the mind-bully of the west. Its to antagonise Muslims to show that they are second class citizens that are need to be enslave. Being told what to do and have there very lives controlled.
THere were other ways to approach it - to educate the people. We constantly here the west beating the drums that they are a better civilization than any Muslim society yet their attitude of Banning a simple Garment only show how unnecessarily aggressive behavior such a Uncivilized nation can be in the west.

The problem is Banning its such an aggresive way to apprauch it and extremly unnessarly. I fear that France has fallen into the world of the likes of Saudi Arabia.

Whats next are we going to force those woemn to wear thigh skirts and boots
Shave the Beard
Stop Muslim praying at their homes

something tells me that Facsism is comeing back to stay.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Elmo

I have merged the two threads (France starts ban and two women detained under the ban). The discussion was identical.


----------



## iPakMan

ARSENAL6 said:


> *What Palestinian has ever said about the destruction of Israel and ended with Inshallah that brought you to type such rubbish here.
> *
> 
> 
> Like you have the power of the unseen and that YOU know what Allah(swt) thinks (Astugfullah ! quite literally) How the heck do you know what Allah/ YHWH wills regardless een if you were just saying. Its well established fact that the Jews are cursed by Allah/YHWH (swt) for disobeying him by not having their own land. Even Rabbis say this
> *So yes INshallah the destruction of Israel will happen - not mentioning the fact that this land and its ideology goes against everything that the Torah has mentioned.*
> 
> If you want to make derogatory comments on peoples religion and belief then don't cry when people attack you as it has already shown.
> Furthermore anyone, that includes Muslims who want to do the same will know it too well that making a mockery of this true religion will only result on their suffering. Muslim DON'T want to wish such curse on Muslim and Non-Muslim alike but these filamentary comment don't help.
> 
> Besides Never underestimate the power of the unseen.These are Gods work and believe me His punishment thorough and swift. Also God listens more fiercely on those who are suffering, suffered especially to slaves who listen to him like doing 5 daily prayers, fasting and doing good deeds
> Inshallah is used when Muslims are striving and it is mostly effective when they or their Muslim counter parts are suffering like whats happening to Muslim women in France .
> ALl Prophets from Adam, Alysia, Solomon, Jesus and Mohammid peace be upon them followed Islam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AS for the Banning of the Burqa,
> 
> the only thing it will make things worst for the non-muslim around the world. Sarkozy is a real idiot.
> 
> Just for the record
> The Burka is not an Islamic dress code as its is known by Muslim scholars that in Islam a woman should cover her head and back of her neck and should cover her body in a way that is not revealing to the opposite sex. Doesn't say anything about covering the face, in fact there is something about seeing someone face for recognition and such.
> There is a lot of Muslim women in MUSLIM SOCIETY that don't wear the Burka.
> 
> THis Ban is the mind-bully of the west. Its to antagonise Muslims to show that they are second class citizens that are need to be enslave. Being told what to do and have there very lives controlled.
> THere were other ways to approach it - to educate the people. We constantly here the west beating the drums that they are a better civilization than any Muslim society yet their attitude of Banning a simple Garment only show how unnecessarily aggressive behavior such a Uncivilized nation can be in the west.
> 
> The problem is Banning its such an aggresive way to apprauch it and extremly unnessarly. I fear that France has fallen into the world of the likes of Saudi Arabia.
> 
> Whats next are we going to force those woemn to wear thigh skirts and boots
> Shave the Beard
> Stop Muslim praying at their homes
> 
> something tells me that Facsism is comeing back to stay.


 
You`re no Israeli, i know that for a fact, stop pretending to be. You might live in Israel but you are not one of us.
I won`t bother arguing that Judaism gave birth to all Abrahamic religions nor will i argue that Judaism existed centuries before Islam.
Might i suggest though that you bless everyday you draw breath as a free man in a free country before soon enough you`ll be expelled to your beloved Palestine?


----------



## Burnz

ARSENAL6 said:


> What Palestinian has ever said about the destruction of Israel and ended with Inshallah that brought you to type such rubbish here.
> 
> 
> 
> Like you have the power of the unseen and that YOU know what Allah(swt) thinks (Astugfullah ! quite literally) How the heck do you know what Allah/ YHWH wills regardless een if you were just saying. Its well established fact that the Jews are cursed by Allah/YHWH (swt) for disobeying him by not having their own land. Even Rabbis say this
> So yes INshallah the destruction of Israel will happen - not mentioning the fact that this land and its ideology goes against everything that the Torah has mentioned.
> 
> If you want to make derogatory comments on peoples religion and belief then don't cry when people attack you as it has already shown.
> Furthermore anyone, that includes Muslims who want to do the same will know it too well that making a mockery of this true religion will only result on their suffering. Muslim DON'T want to wish such curse on Muslim and Non-Muslim alike but these filamentary comment don't help.
> 
> Besides Never underestimate the power of the unseen.These are Gods work and believe me His punishment thorough and swift. Also God listens more fiercely on those who are suffering, suffered especially to slaves who listen to him like doing 5 daily prayers, fasting and doing good deeds
> Inshallah is used when Muslims are striving and it is mostly effective when they or their Muslim counter parts are suffering like whats happening to Muslim women in France .
> ALl Prophets from Adam, Alysia, Solomon, Jesus and Mohammid peace be upon them followed Islam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AS for the Banning of the Burqa,
> 
> the only thing it will make things worst for the non-muslim around the world. Sarkozy is a real idiot.
> 
> Just for the record
> The Burka is not an Islamic dress code as its is known by Muslim scholars that in Islam a woman should cover her head and back of her neck and should cover her body in a way that is not revealing to the opposite sex. Doesn't say anything about covering the face, in fact there is something about seeing someone face for recognition and such.
> There is a lot of Muslim women in MUSLIM SOCIETY that don't wear the Burka.
> 
> THis Ban is the mind-bully of the west. Its to antagonise Muslims to show that they are second class citizens that are need to be enslave. Being told what to do and have there very lives controlled.
> THere were other ways to approach it - to educate the people. We constantly here the west beating the drums that they are a better civilization than any Muslim society yet their attitude of Banning a simple Garment only show how unnecessarily aggressive behavior such a Uncivilized nation can be in the west.
> 
> The problem is Banning its such an aggresive way to apprauch it and extremly unnessarly. I fear that France has fallen into the world of the likes of Saudi Arabia.
> 
> Whats next are we going to force those woemn to wear thigh skirts and boots
> Shave the Beard
> Stop Muslim praying at their homes
> 
> something tells me that Facsism is comeing back to stay.


 
So as an Israeli, you support banning of Burkhas in Pakistan?

You have full Indian Support Brother. .


----------



## fallstuff

tallboy123 said:


> So any chance of france rolling back this law???


 
This is not the end of it. The European Court is the last venue to make the arguments on article 9,



> Article 9  Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
> 
> 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, and to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
> 
> 2. *Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.*
> 
> 
> Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Sarkozy will fail this one.

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## ephone

ovarel said:


> ignorance personified..do you know how many "honor killings" happen in Turkey?and also they are barely getting imprisoned..Turkey is not only secular but militant secular..no sign of islamic laws but still the punishments are so few..its a cultural thing,nothing else.


 
If in secular Turkey, such thing happens a lot, then I have to say that there is something serious wrong with islam dominated countries.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ovarel said:


> how many people getting executed in China? where is the uber-tolerant chinese society?


 
Dude, stop bringing China into this, this guy is AMERICAN, not Chinese.

He may have the Chinese ancestry, but he has his allegiance with US, not China.


----------



## Burnz

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Dude, stop bringing China into this, this guy is AMERICAN, not Chinese.
> 
> He may have the Chinese ancestry, but he has his allegiance with US, not China.


 
Please allow him to have his opinion.

Even you can be branded as a Candanian allegiant. Is it fine with you?


----------



## ephone

fallstuff said:


> You are a pathological liar. You hate Muslims. Haters like you sooner or later get kicked out.


 
If every muslim become as stupid as you are, you or your country or your religion will not have any future.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Burnz said:


> Please allow him to have his opinion.
> 
> Even you can be branded as a Candanian allegiant. Is it fine with you?


 
I am an international student.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> If every muslim become as stupid as you are, you or your country or your religion will not have any future.


 
US is the one who has no future, soon it will become the New Mexico.


----------



## ephone

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Dude, stop bringing China into this, this guy is AMERICAN, not Chinese.
> 
> He may have the Chinese ancestry, but he has his allegiance with US, not China.


 
You have not seen my posts defending China??? What kind of accusations can you throw at me again??? 

Did I mention anything against China here or anywhere in this forum???

You are really the pathological liar.


----------



## ephone

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> US is the one who has no future, soon it will become the New Mexico.


 
Then why the hell you move to North America??? Why will you go to a continent that has no future???


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> You have not seen my posts defending China??? What kind of accusations can you throw at me again???
> 
> Did I mention anything against China here or anywhere in this forum???
> 
> You are really the pathological liar.



You wanna stir up the tension between the Chinese and the Muslims. What is your true motive?

Did the Muslims sell the opium to the Chinese people?

Did the Muslims burn down our palace?

Did the Muslims occupy our country as 8 invading nations?

Did the Muslims exploit the Chinese workers in building the railway?

Did the Muslims rob our land in Northeast Asia and Outer Mongolia?

Did the Muslims commit the massacre in Nanjing?

China sees most of the Muslim nations as a fellow companion who both shared a unfortunate past.

Only the West and its puppets wanna see they both kill each other.

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## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> Then why the hell you move to North America??? Why will you go to a continent that has no future???


 
Canada == US???

Learn some geography you illiterate Yankee.

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## Raja.Pakistani

Ephone go pick fight somewhere else. You cannot argument with mature peoples

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## Raja.Pakistani

fallstuff said:


> This is not the end of it. The European Court is the last venue to make the arguments on article 9,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarkozy will fail this one.


 
Exactly there are not any solid argument or reasoning against this ban except personal hate and bigotry


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Exactly there are not any solid argument or reasoning against this ban except personal hate and bigotry


 
Even the Islamization in Europe is becoming a unchangeable reality, then the White people shouldn't blame the Muslims except themselves.

Just look what they did to Libya which caused so many homeless refugees.

They have robbed the natural resources from the Islamic land for centuries, now they gonna pay for the sins they committed.

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## ephone

You have extended the topic really too far. 

We should never forget the history and that is why China builds stronger army to protect itself. We won't let the past repeat. However, that is not what is talked about here. 

The talk here is about French's ban on Burqa since it is a symbol of repressing against women. And I strongly support French's ban on this full facial covered clothes. 

About stirring up the tension between Chinese and Muslims??? You are saying that as Chinese, I cannot point out those ugly problems that exist in current muslim culture and countries???

Even in muslims, there are some members who still posess common sense, e.g. from post #270 on page 18:

"Islamic countries do not let non-Muslims open bars, Saudi Arabia doesn't let temples, churches, or anything else be constructed in their country. We expect non-Muslims to live by our standards, but we cry 'freedom & secular democracy' in their situation. Typical hypocrisy. *The truth of the better is, even with this face veil thing, they are far more respectful to our religion than we are to theirs. *In the US, we have our mosques, Islamic (Sunday) schools, Islamic centers, Imam Bargahs (for Shias). No one kills in the name of religion. We have Taraweeh during Ramadhan for our Sunni brothers, Friday prayers for everyone, we have full freedom observing Lailut-Qadr in Ramadhan & Ashoora in Muharram. Hijabi women are not left out of any way. Niqabi women however, create an awkward situation for everyone."

By your logic, Japan has done the "rape of nanjing", so we should bomb Japan now???

France and U.K. have started two opium wars and we should invade them to get our revenge???

Well, Libya has never invaded China, why don't we let Gaddafi wipe out all of those rebels?

Well, Egypt and China has never had any war in between and China has good relation with Egypt. Why don't we give more tanks and weapons and let Mubarak kill all of those who are against him???

Your logic is really twisted. 

Those who have not invaded or exploited China do not indicated they are on the right side. Those who have done wrong to China in the past do not mean they are always against China.

A so-called "friend" who always pick the good words to praise and choose to ignore the dark and ugly facts is a good friend???

In that case, the whole Europe chose to ignore Hitler's cleansing of Jews for a long time just to remain friends with Germany. Are they the true friends of German people???

Keep your focus or drop it.







ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You wanna stir up the tension the Chinese and the Muslims. What is your true motive?
> 
> Did the Muslims sell the opium to China?
> 
> Did the Muslims burn down our palace?
> 
> Did the Muslims occupy our country as 8 invading nations?
> 
> Did the Muslims exploit the Chinese workers in building the railway?
> 
> Did the Muslims rob our land in Northeast Asia and Outer Mongolia?
> 
> Did the Muslims commit the massacre in Nanjing?
> 
> China sees most of the Muslim nations as a fellow companion who both shared a unfortunate future.
> 
> Only the West and its puppets wanna see they both kill each other.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> You have extended the topic really too far.
> 
> We should never forget the history and that is why China builds stronger army to protect itself. We won't let the past repeat. However, that is not what is talked about here.
> 
> The talk here is about French's ban on Burqa since it is a symbol of repressing against women. And I strongly support French's ban on this full facial covered clothes.
> 
> About stirring up the tension between Chinese and Muslims??? You are saying that as Chinese, I cannot point out those ugly problems that exist in current muslim culture and countries???
> 
> Even in muslims, there are some members who still posess common sense, e.g. from post #270 on page 18:
> 
> "Islamic countries do not let non-Muslims open bars, Saudi Arabia doesn't let temples, churches, or anything else be constructed in their country. We expect non-Muslims to live by our standards, but we cry 'freedom & secular democracy' in their situation. Typical hypocrisy. *The truth of the better is, even with this face veil thing, they are far more respectful to our religion than we are to theirs. *In the US, we have our mosques, Islamic (Sunday) schools, Islamic centers, Imam Bargahs (for Shias). No one kills in the name of religion. We have Taraweeh during Ramadhan for our Sunni brothers, Friday prayers for everyone, we have full freedom observing Lailut-Qadr in Ramadhan & Ashoora in Muharram. Hijabi women are not left out of any way. Niqabi women however, create an awkward situation for everyone."
> 
> By your logic, Japan has done the "rape of nanjing", so we should bomb Japan now???
> 
> France and U.K. have started two opium wars and we should invade them to get our revenge???
> 
> Well, Libya has never invaded China, why don't we let Gaddafi wipe out all of those rebels?
> 
> Well, Egypt and China has never had any war in between and China has good relation with Egypt. Why don't we give more tanks and weapons and let Mubarak kill all of those who are against him???
> 
> Your logic is really twisted.
> 
> Those who have not invaded or exploited China do not indicated they are on the right side. Those who have done wrong to China do not mean they are always against China.
> 
> A so-called "friend" who always pick the good words to praise and choose to ignore the dark and ugly facts is a good friend???
> 
> In that case, the whole Europe chose to ignore Hitler's cleansing of Jews for a long time just to remain friend with Germany. Are they the true friends of German people???
> 
> Keep your focus or drop it.


 
At least Islam never sent any insurgency to China, unlike some so-called democratic nation who has planned to break China apart for over half century.

Most Chinese people can distinguish their real enemy.

Oh, and Saudi is one of the most close allies of your beloved US master. How ironic you are criticizing a regime which is totally supported by your white master.

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## ephone

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Ephone go pick fight somewhere else. You cannot argument with mature peoples


 
Mind your spelling first.


----------



## ephone

Are you sure about that?

Who has supported and funded those Uighur separatists/terrorists? Who has trained them?

Turkey has openly supported them, harbored them and funded them. Saudi is another big donor. In addition, where are the training camps for those bastards???

You have never heard about the insurgencies in Xinjiang, Ningxia, Gansu and etc for the past three hundred years: during Kangxi emperor, YongZheng emperor, Qianglong Emperor, JiaQing, DaoGuang, XianFeng as well as Cixi Era during Qing time. After Republic of China established, there WERE still many insurgencies there, even Sheng Shicai had to put down them by himself.

They never invaded China? Well, first they have tried. During mid-tang and later-tang era, they did. During the last three hundred years, either they were defeated by China since Qing is so powerful, or they did not get the chance since they were also being invaded by the west then. Second, they have funded such insurgencies historically for the past three hundred years against China. Maybe we can call them the old "freedom fighters" in the Qing or Republic of China time.

I bet you have never heard of "&#26432;&#22238;&#36214;&#27721;".

BTW, I suggest that you really have a tour in Xinjiang or even LanZhou. I do not even suggest the Uighur or muslim dominated region, just Urumqi where Han has more. Take a bus there and try to stand by the side of Uighurs for 1 minute. In addition, if you accidentally step on the foot of a Uighur, well, let me know then what happens next!!! BTW, do not RUN when you see the knife and tell them like them just like their brother. I suppose those almost two hundred Han Chinese massacred in Urumqi not long ago forgot to say that, right???



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> At least Islam never sent any insurgency to China, unlike some so-called democratic nation who has planned to break China apart for over half century.
> 
> Most Chinese people can distinguish their real enemy.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> Who has supported and funded those Uighur separatists/terrorists? Who has trained them?
> 
> Turkey has openly supported them, harbored them and funded them. Saudi is another big donor. In addition, where are the training camps for those bastards???
> 
> You have never heard the insurgencies in Xinjiang, Ningxia, Gansu and etc for the past three hundred years: during Kangxi emperor, YongZheng emperor, Qianglong Emperor, JiaQing, DaoGuang, XianFeng as well as Cixi Era during Qing time. After Republic of China established, there are still many insurgencies there, even Sheng Shicai had to put down them by himself.
> 
> They never invaded China? Well, first they did not get the chance since they are also being invaded by the west then. Second, they have funded such insurgencies historically for the past three hundred years against China. Maybe we can call them the old "freedom fighters" in the Qing or Republic of China time.


 
I know some Pan-Turkish Ultranationalists are indeed annoying, but still Turkey itself is a Nato member, which is one of the closest political allies of US.

Most of the Muslim rebellions in the late Qing Dynasty was all backed by the Tsarist Russia.

Again, your analogy of "Muslim = the biggest enemy of China" fails.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> Mind your spelling first.


 
I reply from my cell phone so forgive my spelling mistakes. I also like those who prove their superiority by correcting the English of others


----------



## Aimazaadi

yesterday, a girl travelling in train in UP was thrown out of train, she lost her leg bcoz she refused to give them her jewellery,,,,,,
Sports minister has announced Rs 25000 for her as govt sympathy,,,,
i dont understand is ths wht these indians call it as respect to women,,,


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## ChineseTiger1986

Raja.Pakistani said:


> I reply from my cell phone so forgive my spelling mistakes. I also like those who prove their superiority by correcting the English of others


 
He got mentally enslaved by his white master, this spontaneously strip off his Chinese identity as well.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

The Islamic civilization has preserved the Greco-Roman culture which was totally eradicated during the dark age by the Christianity.

The White people should be grateful to Islam as it in fact has protected their ancestral civilization from the total annihilation from the Christianity.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> He got mentally enslaved by his white master, this spontaneously strip off his Chinese identity as well.


 
I agree with you after considering his bigotry. I hope he become more Chinese and less American

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## Burnz

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Islamic civilization has preserved the Greco-Roman culture which was totally eradicated during the dark age by the Christianity.
> 
> The White people should be grateful to Islam as it in fact has protected their ancestral civilization from the total annihilation from the Christianity.


 
I hope you realise that Islamic civilization sat on the laps of Indian and Chinese Civilizations.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Burnz said:


> I hope you realise that Islamic civilization sat on the laps of Indian and Chinese Civilizations.


 
As one of your fellow Indian poster explained, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were originally low caste Hindus, so there was nothing wrong for them to convert into Islam in order to improve their social status.


----------



## hamtaro

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Islamic civilization has preserved the Greco-Roman culture which was totally eradicated during the dark age by the Christianity.
> 
> The White people should be grateful to Islam as it in fact has protected their ancestral civilization from the total annihilation from the Christianity.


 
What? I can't see how Islamic states preserved Greco-Roman culture.


----------



## ARSENAL6

iPakMan said:


> You`re no Israeli, i know that for a fact, stop pretending to be. You might live in Israel but you are not one of us.I won`t bother arguing that Judaism gave birth to all Abrahamic religions nor will i argue that Judaism existed centuries before Islam.
> *Might i suggest though that you bless everyday you draw breath as a free man in a free country before soon enough you`ll be expelled to your beloved Palestine?*


 
It TAkes one to know one  see in red

btw what the heck does me being ISraeli or not got to with the topic at hand , just being all heated up and jealous Indian hindu because you're not one. Ashamed to be Hindu Ipakman ?
We all know what you RAcist username implies

And what are you implying in bold ? Do you support Nazism iPakman

Post reported


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## khurasaan1

What kinda freedom we can expect from the Hypocrites of the leading nationz...They dont even give freedom to their women citizens and give lectures to the whole world for the women freedom, liberty, human rights etc .etc..
This means no freedom for Muslims anywhere around the world .. no freedom for Islam anywhere around the world.... this is the agenda of the Western world....


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

hamtaro said:


> What? I can't see how Islamic states preserved Greco-Roman culture.


 
Some entirely, but some fragment like the Greek writing system, since it got completely eradicated by the Christianity in Europe during the Middle Age.


----------



## Burnz

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> As one of your fellow Indian poster explained, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were originally low caste Hindus, so there was nothing wrong to convert into Islam to improve their social status.


 
Yes.

As China is soon going to be Baptisizied into the Largest Christian Nation.

I was talking about Science.
Those theif Arabs stole our Inventions and sold it as theirs. Hindu Numerals Arab Numerals


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Burnz said:


> Yes.
> 
> As China is soon going to be Baptisizied into the Largest Christian Nation.
> 
> I was talking about Science.
> Those theif Arabs stole our Inventions and sold it as theirs. Hindu Numerals Arab Numerals


 
Christianity never gonna work in China, mark my word.

The Chinese people will never buy into the Christian stuffs.

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## ovarel

i understand everything except one..whats ephone's problem?did a muslim rape him or sth like that?if thats the case,i want to let him know that islam forbids raping.

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## ephone

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I know some Pan-Turkish Ultranationalists are indeed annoying, but still Turkey itself is a Nato member, which is one of the closest political allies of US.
> 
> Most of the Muslim rebellions in the late Qing Dynasty was all backed by the Tsarist Russia.
> 
> Again, your analogy of "Muslim = the biggest enemy of China" fails.


 
reply to idiot like you really is a waste of time.

Where the heck did I write ""Muslim = the biggest enemy of China" or indicate that???

I cannot point out some of the ugly and brutal practices in current muslim countries??? 

By pointing that out, I have created islamophobia and become enemy of islam??? 

By turning a blind eye on those, I am then friend of muslim?


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ovarel said:


> i understand everything except one..whats ephone's problem?did a muslim rape him or sth like that?if thats the case,i want to let him know that islam forbids raping.



The Chinese government never generalized a group of people, since the event of 2009, CCP kept insisting these terrorists were back by the Foreign Anti-China regime, since they not only killed the Han Chinese, but also many other Muslim groups.

The Chinese government always try with effort in order to prevent the spreading of hatred among people.

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## ephone

ovarel said:


> i understand everything except one..whats ephone's problem?did a muslim rape him or sth like that?if thats the case,i want to let him know that islam forbids raping.


 
By your logic, have you, or your dad, or mom being raped by jewish people or what? BTW, Jewish old testament also forbid raping. Our Chinese taoism also forbid raping as well. I hope you are not being raped by a Chinese.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> reply to idiot like you really is a waste of time.
> 
> Where the heck did I write ""Muslim = the biggest enemy of China" or indicate that???
> 
> I cannot point out some of the ugly and brutal practices in current muslim countries???
> 
> By pointing that out, I have created islamophobia and become enemy of islam???
> 
> By turning a blind eye on those, I am then friend of muslim?


 
I think you shouldn't waste your time here.

Go to some White Supremacist forum, then tell them how much you hate Islam.

Maybe they will see how qualified you can become a lapdog.

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## ovarel

ephone said:


> By your logic, have you, or your dad, or mom being raped by jewish people or what? BTW, Jewish old testament also forbid raping. Our Chinese taoism also forbid raping as well. I hope you are not being raped by a Chinese.


 
aahh..dont imit my arguments loser..and tell us about your childhood.what happened to you?


----------



## scuthan

This act is a blatant violation of human rights of French muslims. They deserve a right to wear that unless proved coerced.

they make no difference from those saudi arabs who they criticize.

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## ephone

What kind of freedoms have you given to those non-muslims in those muslim countries? Can they freely establish their churches, temples??? Can they dress freely, e.g. wear bikinis or shorts on street? Can they kiss each other publicly??? ....

Your talking of France lack of freedom compared with those muslim countries is really a joke. That is where modern freedom system generated. Remember, French revolution??? 

Oh, I forget, in your country, you do not learn that!!!



khurasaan1 said:


> What kinda freedom we can expect from the Hypocrites of the leading nationz...They dont even give freedom to their women citizens and give lectures to the whole world for the women freedom, liberty, human rights etc .etc..
> This means no freedom for Muslims anywhere around the world .. no freedom for Islam anywhere around the world.... this is the agenda of the Western world....


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

scuthan said:


> This act is a blatant violation of human rights of French muslims. They deserve a right to wear that unless proved coerced.
> 
> they make no difference from those saudi arabs who they criticize.


 
Saudi was fully backed by USA.

Why our Anti-Islam cheerleader ephone failed to mention USA?


----------



## chops3d

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Chinese government never generalized a group of people, since the event of 2009, CCP kept insisting these terrorists were back by the Foreign Anti-China regime, since they not only killed the Han Chinese, but also many other Muslim groups.
> 
> The Chinese government always try with effort in order to prevent the spreading of hatred among people.


 
please ask you government to kick ephone guy from china or there will soon be another tinamen square incident and please dont keep him thinking he is pakistani something, we dont have anything to do with this guy


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

chops3d said:


> please ask you government to kick ephone guy from china or there will soon be another tinamen square incident


 
He is already a US citizen, the only way to arrest him is if he is conducting the insurgency in China like Liu Xiaobo did.


----------



## ephone

ovarel said:


> aahh..dont imit my arguments loser..and tell us about your childhood.what happened to you?



It is loser like you who are always at the wrong end of history.

Even though Turkey became a secular country 80 years ago, it still has idiots like you who like those medieval ugly brutal practices and justify those will all means. BTW, good luck with your imaginationary war with Israel as well. Hopefully your mom will find your body parts if you someday decide blow yourself up.

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## ephone

Do not put me with idiots like him. I have nothing in common with such person. 

BTW, it seems that you also know my SSN as well??? WOW, good for you. Maybe FBI need people like you. Oh, wait, it seems that you are anti-US and anti-western culture. NO job for you.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> He is already a US citizen, the only way to arrest him is if he is conducting the insurgency in China like Liu Xiaobo did.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

scuthan said:


> This act is a blatant violation of human rights of French muslims. They deserve a right to wear that unless proved coerced.
> 
> they make no difference from those saudi arabs who they criticize.


 
well said dude. I guess no one has the right to tell a woman that she can or cannot wear a veil whether that person is a family member, friend, or government official. Deciding to wear a veil is an extremely personal decision and I seriously doubt anyone who has decided to wear the veil takes it lightly. I know many women who wear the veil who have full-time jobs, pay taxes, and proudly contribute to a western society. I would rabidly oppose forcing a Jewish man to remove his yarmulke, or a Sikh to remove his turban because these are expression of their respective belief systems, likewise with the veil. If Western society is to remain free, then freedom of religion and expression must be protected, even if those symbols make other members of that society uncomfortable


----------



## ovarel

ephone said:


> It is loser like you who are always at the wrong end of history.
> 
> Even though Turkey became a secular country 80 years ago, it still has idiots like you who like those medieval ugly brutal practices and justify those will all means. BTW, good luck with your imaginationary war with Israel as well. Hopefully your mom will find your body parts if you someday decide blow yourself up.





dude,seems like neocons screwed your mind up..i feel like im talking to George Bush.

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## chops3d

ovarel said:


> aahh..dont imit my arguments loser..and tell us about your childhood.what happened to you?


 
you will have to stoop to this jugheads level in arguement.. other wise you cant win


----------



## ephone

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Saudi was fully backed by USA.
> 
> Why our Anti-Islam cheerleader ephone failed to mention USA?


 
Except chanting your so-called love of islam and bashing me for not loving islam by pointing out those ugly practices currently in muslim countries, why don't you just move to a muslim country for a while from your no-future North America continent???

After that, enlighten us about your newly found freedom then.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> Do not put me with idiots like him. I have nothing in common with such person.
> 
> BTW, it seems that you also know my SSN as well??? WOW, good for you. Maybe FBI need people like you. Oh, wait, it seems that you are anti-US and anti-western culture. NO job for you.


 
I think it is the time to say goodbye with your ID.


----------



## ephone

chops3d said:


> you will have to stoop to this jugheads level in arguement.. other wise you cant win



I cannot believe you defend that idiot when he used such offensive sentence in his comments. You are are just the same.


----------



## ovarel

chops3d said:


> you will have to stoop to this jugheads level in arguement.. other wise you cant win


 
they are reading evangelic fanatics articles too much..and finally they are turning into this.


----------



## ephone

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I think it is the time to say goodbye with your ID.


 
Is this your family forum???

Shutting down my voice will make Islam suddenly void of all of those problems???


----------



## ovarel

ephone said:


> I cannot believe you defend that *idiot* when he used such offensive sentence in his comments. You are are just the same.


 
and he is complaining about offensive statements..this guy has serious problems.


----------



## chops3d

ephone said:


> I cannot believe you defend that idiot when he used such offensive sentence in his comments. You are are just the same.


 
and i cant believe you are saying this always in your posts are continuous rubbish which is continuing from 2 days


----------



## ovarel

ephone said:


> Is this your family forum???
> 
> Shutting down my voice will make Islam suddenly void of all of those problems???


 
you are giving China a bad name..i think thats why he thinks you are an idiot.

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## Burnz

In their bid for Muslim Appeasment, some Chinese have sold their Morals!

Blame your own brother to cover someone's Shortcomings!

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## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> Is this your family forum???
> 
> Shutting down my voice will make Islam suddenly void of all of those problems???


 
Now you are trolling against a specific religion, this is against the forum's rules.

And i am waiting the mod to take some infraction on you.


----------



## ephone

ovarel said:


> dude,seems like neocons screwed your mind up..i feel like im talking to George Bush.


 
Does not Turkey kisses the axx of U.S. and Europe for the past century? George Bush is your sugar daddy for such a long time. 

Without them, where is your fighter planes, tanks, ships??? Where is your military aid???


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## tanlixiang28776

Burnz said:


> In their bid for Muslim Appeasment, some Chinese have sold their Morals!
> 
> Blame your own brother to cover someone's Shortcomings!


 
You have a strange sense of morals showing up with an ID picture like that.

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## ephone

The mod will also see what you have written in those offensive words. 

trolling against a specific religion??? Anything I have pointed out have been widely reported. The mod should ban people like you first.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Now you are trolling against a specific religion, this is against the forum's rules.
> 
> And i am waiting the mod to take some infraction on you.


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## Raja.Pakistani

tanlixiang28776 said:


> You have a strange sense of morals showing up with an ID picture like that.


 
lol  that's why he is opposing veil

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## ephone

ovarel said:


> you are giving China a bad name..i think thats why he thinks you are an idiot.


 
I have never thought you are not an idiot from all the comments you have posted.


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## chops3d

tanlixiang28776 said:


> You have a strange sense of morals showing up with an ID picture like that.


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## ovarel

ephone said:


> Does not Turkey kisses the axx of U.S. and Europe for the past century? George Bush is your sugar daddy for such a long time.
> 
> Without them, where is your fighter plane, tanks, ships??? Where is your military aid???


 
nope..you are wrong kiddo..learn sth about cyprus,iraq etc...and you were the same person complementing Turkey because of secularism..as i said you have some serious problems.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> What kind of freedoms have you given to those non-muslims in those muslim countries? Can they freely establish their churches, temples??? Can they dress freely, e.g. wear bikinis or shorts on street? Can they kiss each other publicly??? ....
> 
> Your talking of France lack of freedom compared with those muslim countries is really a joke. That is where modern freedom system generated. Remember, French revolution???
> 
> Oh, I forget, in your country, you do not learn that!!!


 
Okay bro.. we are all evil...... But please give me 1 good reason for banning a veil ?

I can give a thousand replies to ur questions.


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## Burnz

ovarel said:


> dude,seems like neocons screwed your mind up..i feel like im talking to George Bush.



Why can't Muslims take up criticism of Islam?
Why you become so Insecure when the talk comes to Islam?


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## Raja.Pakistani

Burnz said:


> Why can't Muslims take up criticism of Islam?
> Why you become so Insecure when the talk comes to Islam?


 
We take constructive criticism but this topic is not to discuss sharia law 

Again we have problem when peoples like Ephone try to teach us about islam by bringing his twisted version of islam


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Burnz said:


> Why can't Muslims take up criticism of Islam?
> Why you become so Insecure when the talk comes to Islam?


 
Does this package come with vulgar,insulting pics of our holy Prophet ,banning mosques in EU(Swiss example)n burning of our Holy books?N banning veil tht women in our societies wear with honour n dignity ,...And banning of whom is an insult to human rights?


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## chops3d

Burnz said:


> Why can't Muslims take up criticism of Islam?
> Why you become so Insecure when the talk comes to Islam?


 
r u so full of shitt to put up picture like that man, r u serious???, i have already reported it


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Burnz said:


> In their bid for Muslim Appeasment, some Chinese have sold their Morals!
> 
> Blame your own brother to cover someone's Shortcomings!


 
Look at ur avi pic and ur talkin abt morals......... Thts very funny man....


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## ovarel

Burnz said:


> Why can't Muslims take up criticism of Islam?
> Why you become so Insecure when the talk comes to Islam?


 
spitting venom for pages isnt criticism..he probably have rancor..if i insult india for pages,you would rightfully oppose me..


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## ephone

ovarel said:


> nope..you are wrong kiddo..learn sth about cyprus,iraq etc...and you were the same person complementing Turkey because of secularism..as i said you have some serious problems.


 
I did complement secular system in Turkey and I still think it is the right way.

The serious problem I have is that how such a good system produces idiot like you.

BTW, what is about cyprus??? Isn't it still divided??? How about Iraq? Should China give you the same dose of medicine by arming those Kurdish people both in Iraq and Turkey since you are so in love with those Uighur separatists/terrorists in China???


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## ChineseTiger1986

Raja.Pakistani said:


> We take constructive criticism but this topic is not to discuss sharia law
> 
> Again we have problem when peoples like Ephone try to teach us about islam by bringing his twisted version of islam


 
Same question can be posed to the Christianity. Why they keep insisting that Jesus Christ is the son of God?

Whereas the Muslims insist both Muhammad and Jesus are the prophets of God.

Who is more insane?

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## Burnz

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Okay bro.. we are all evil...... But please give me 1 good reason for banning a veil ?
> 
> I can give a thousand replies to ur questions.


 
Baby Stolen by a Burkha clad Woman.

Another baby stolen by burqa-clad thief in Mumbai

I don't want our Kids stolen.

Burkha should banned in India and Pakistan.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> I did complement secular system in Turkey and I still think it is the right way.
> 
> The serious problem I have is that how such a good system produces idiot like you.


 
Dude wats wrong in apposing this ban?
Please give a reason or two.


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## ovarel

ephone said:


> I did complement secular system in Turkey and I still think it is the right way.
> 
> The serious problem I have is that how such a good system produces idiot like you.



your argument is weak..you are repeating yourself like a parrot..idiot,idiot,idiot,idiot..what the hell is that?how old are you?

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## ephone

Pointing out where the insult is!!!

You cannot tell criticism from insult???



ovarel said:


> spitting venom for pages isnt criticism..he probably have rancor..if i insult india for pages,you would rightfully oppose me..


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Burnz said:


> Baby Stolen by a Burkha clad Woman.
> 
> Another baby stolen by burqa-clad thief in Mumbai
> 
> I don't want our Kids stolen.
> 
> Burkha should banned in India and Pakistan.



There is child prostitution going on in temples should we also ban them?
There are millions of non muslims who do crimes........ should we ban wat they wear ? 
Just coz of a few such incidents where the criminal women/man who could very well be non muslim used it........ We should ban it?So millions could get problems.
Just like internet........ u can use it to watch **** and u can use it to get information n knowledge......... Ur choice.


Also we r talking about veil not a burka.

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## ephone

Raja.Pakistani said:


> We take constructive criticism but this topic is not to discuss sharia law
> 
> Again we have problem when peoples like Ephone try to teach us about islam by bringing his twisted version of islam


 
When you are in their country, you should obey their laws. 

Do not like that??? Go home. Nobody begs you to stay there.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> When you are in their country, you should obey their laws.
> 
> Do not like that??? Go home. Nobody begs you to stay there.


 
Imagine ur livin in USA since decades....One day an order pops up tht ur wife will always wear a bikini in public...... Would u abide by it or protest against it?


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## Raja.Pakistani

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Same question can be posed to the Christianity. Why they keep insisting that Jesus Christ is the son of God?
> 
> Whereas the Muslims insist both Muhammad and Jesus are the prophets of God.
> 
> Who is more insane?


 
Actually they believe in trinity(God, son, holy spirit) and they believe Jesus Christ is three(( God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) in one divine being which is confusing.


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## ovarel

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Imagine ur livin in USA since decades....One day an order pops up tht ur wife will always wear a bikini in public...... Would u abide by it or protest against it?


 
he would love to obey his masters..correct me if im wrong ephone.


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## Burnz

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Does this package come with vulgar,insulting pics of our holy Prophet ,banning mosques in EU(Swiss example)n burning of our Holy books?N banning veil tht women in our societies wear with honour n dignity ,...And banning of whom is an insult to human rights?


 
Muslims should consider it a *Privilege* those who get a better life in the west. 

Regarding banning of Religious places, Muslims are the Latest People on the Planet to talk. Destruction of Temples and Churches in Pakistan. Banning of Practice of Non-Islamic Religions in Saudi. Burning of Bible. What is that?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Actually they believe in trinity(God, son, holy spirit) and they believe Jesus Christ is three(( God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) in one divine being which is confusing.


 
I think this is the faith of the Catholicism, whereas the Protestantism is somewhat different.


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## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> When you are in their country, you should obey their laws.
> 
> Do not like that??? Go home. Nobody begs you to stay there.


 
The West also promoted the racial superiority and segregation in the last century, if they re-apply it today, then we should obey it as well?


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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> When you are in their country, you should obey their laws.
> 
> Do not like that??? Go home. Nobody begs you to stay there.


 
Is this your law or law of secular country ?  

We are taking about constitution of France which is being violated


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Burnz said:


> Muslims should consider it a *Privilege* those who get a better life in the west.



Priviliege?? for working and earning money they right fully deserve? Huh...Wat a logic.




> Regarding banning of Religious places, Muslims are the Latest People on the Planet to talk. Destruction of Temples and Churches in Pakistan.


Please name such an accident where a temple or a churche was destoryed by Govt or massive gathering of public?



> Banning of Practice of Non-Islamic Religions in Saudi.


Nothin is banned....... there r millions of indian hindus living there n earing money..... And funny thing is tht the champion of democracy n freedom "USA" supports the saudis.



> Burning of Bible. What is that?


Who burnt a bible??
Burning of Holy Quran.. Wat is tht?Drawing cartoons of our sacred personalities ?threatening to force muslims out of their countries? etc etc........ Wats all tht?

HYPOCRISY?


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## Burnz

ephone said:


> When you are in their country, you should obey their laws.
> 
> Do not like that??? Go home. Nobody begs you to stay there.


 
Exactly.

What rights do Non-Muslims in Muslim Countries have Compared to Muslims have in Non-Muslim Countries?

Answer this. .


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## Raja.Pakistani

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I think this is the faith of the Catholicism, whereas the Protestantism is somewhat different.


 
True but majority catholic are the ones who practice their religion

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## 53fd

Why don't Burka clad women cover their eyes as well? After all, the eyes are a symbol of beauty as well. Being naked in public here in the US is unlawful, what's wrong with Burka being banned? A lot of women think that the Burka represents Islamic identity, I don't think it does. I find it offensive to think that Islam would not allow women to breathe freely from the air in the surroundings, & would impose covering their mouth & nose to make it hard for them to breathe. This is not what Islam is about in my opinion. Many women become even more resilient when they feel the world is against them & the way they dress. 

Many women use the Burka as a means of combating perceived "suppression", discrimination that they face from society for the way they dress or who they are, for asserting an individualistic identity. And these are wrong motives to be observing head cover in my opinion. It's not about being resilient to others that don't approve of your actions, Islam encourages Muslims to integrate well into society & being useful & valuable citizens than sticking out like sore thumbs. The Burka does that: it isolates women & confines them to themselves, & makes them stick out like sore thumbs in public.

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## Raja.Pakistani

Burnz said:


> Exactly.
> 
> What rights do Non-Muslims in Muslim Countries have Compared to Muslims have in Non-Muslim Countries?
> 
> Answer this. .


 
This question has been answered before

Why you feel the need to compare "theocratic" state with "secular state" when they are two totally different form of Government. Let me tell you how

*Theocratic State*: Religion play an important role in Government decisions. Most laws of state derive from religious scripture of local peoples. Islamic state will be based on Islamic principles

*Secular state* Religion don't play any role in government decision. Peoples can practice their religion in their private day to day lives but Government will not use any religious scripture to make laws for its peoples. Secular state will be based on secular principles.

*Now question arise : Is France a secular state or theocratic state?* If they claim to be secular then then they should have secular laws and these laws give freedom to peoples to practice their religion in their private life as long as they don't hurt any other member of the society. Most western Government claim that Saudia government don't give right to women to wear Bikini and bra in public and they oppress women with their Islamic concept of modesty but then they go and do the same by taking away the right of women to wear niqab.

If these different government doing the same thing then they should not preach that western secular government give women more rights as compare to theocratic state. I am not talking about just wearing niqab but they should also allow Christian to wear cross as it dont hurt anyone else 

Perhaps all the objections pertaining to a Muslim woman's veil have more to do with the beholders' mental attitude than with actual practical problems pertaining to mobility and comfort?

You, as a beholder, do not have to understand why the Muslim woman chooses to wear the veil, you do not have to accept it, you do not even have to agree to it, what you can do, though, is to respect her decision, her choice, to dress the way she does. Perhaps then we all can live and let live, in mutual peace and harmony, in this world : )

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## Burnz

Raja.Pakistani said:


> This question has been answered before
> 
> Why you feel the need to compare "theocratic" state with "secular state" when they are two totally different form of Government. Let me tell you how
> 
> *Theocratic State*: Religion play an important role in Government decisions. Most laws of state derive from religious scripture of local peoples. Islamic state will be based on Islamic principles
> 
> *Secular state* Religion don't play any role in government decision. Peoples can practice their religion in their private day to day lives but Government will not use any religious scripture to make laws for its peoples. Secular state will be based on secular principles.
> 
> *Now question arise : Is France a secular state or theocratic state?* If they claim to be secular then then they should have secular laws and these laws give freedom to peoples to practice their religion in their private life as long as they don't hurt any other member of the society. Most western Government claim that Saudia government don't give right to women to wear Bikini and bra in public and they oppress women with their Islamic concept of modesty but then they go and do the same by taking away the right of women to wear niqab.
> 
> If these different government doing the same thing then they should not preach that western secular government give women more rights as compare to theocratic state. I am not talking about just wearing niqab but they should also allow Christian to wear cross as it dont hurt anyone else
> 
> Perhaps all the objections pertaining to a Muslim woman's veil have more to do with the beholders' mental attitude than with actual practical problems pertaining to mobility and comfort?
> 
> You, as a beholder, do not have to understand why the Muslim woman chooses to wear the veil, you do not have to accept it, you do not even have to agree to it, what you can do, though, is to respect her decision, her choice, to dress the way she does. Perhaps then we all can live and let live, in mutual peace and harmony, in this world : )


 
Exactly.

An Immigrant from a Theocratic States should consider it a Privilege to be in a Secular Society. They need to Respect the Laws and live According to the Wishes of the People of the Land!

---------- Post added at 04:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 AM ----------




Raja.Pakistani said:


> This question has been answered before
> 
> Why you feel the need to compare "theocratic" state with "secular state" when they are two totally different form of Government. Let me tell you how
> 
> *Theocratic State*: Religion play an important role in Government decisions. Most laws of state derive from religious scripture of local peoples. Islamic state will be based on Islamic principles
> 
> *Secular state* Religion don't play any role in government decision. Peoples can practice their religion in their private day to day lives but Government will not use any religious scripture to make laws for its peoples. Secular state will be based on secular principles.
> 
> *Now question arise : Is France a secular state or theocratic state?* If they claim to be secular then then they should have secular laws and these laws give freedom to peoples to practice their religion in their private life as long as they don't hurt any other member of the society. Most western Government claim that Saudia government don't give right to women to wear Bikini and bra in public and they oppress women with their Islamic concept of modesty but then they go and do the same by taking away the right of women to wear niqab.
> 
> If these different government doing the same thing then they should not preach that western secular government give women more rights as compare to theocratic state. I am not talking about just wearing niqab but they should also allow Christian to wear cross as it dont hurt anyone else
> 
> Perhaps all the objections pertaining to a Muslim woman's veil have more to do with the beholders' mental attitude than with actual practical problems pertaining to mobility and comfort?
> 
> You, as a beholder, do not have to understand why the Muslim woman chooses to wear the veil, you do not have to accept it, you do not even have to agree to it, what you can do, though, is to respect her decision, her choice, to dress the way she does. Perhaps then we all can live and let live, in mutual peace and harmony, in this world : )


 
Exactly.

An Immigrant from a Theocratic States should consider it a Privilege to be in a Secular Society. They need to Respect the Laws and live According to the Wishes of the People of the Land! .

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Burnz said:


> Exactly.
> 
> An Immigrant from a Theocratic States should consider it a Privilege to be in a Secular Society. They need to Respect the Laws and live According to the Wishes of the People of the Land!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> An Immigrant from a Theocratic States should consider it a Privilege to be in a Secular Society. They need to Respect the Laws and live According to the Wishes of the People of the Land! .


 
Illegal Laws tht violate ur own privacy or legal human right?Either the so called secular society is f...ked up or the guys who made em r.

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## ARSENAL6

Burnz said:


> Exactly.
> 
> An Immigrant from a Theocratic States should consider it a Privilege to be in a Secular Society. They need to Respect the Laws and live According to the Wishes of the People of the Land!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> An Immigrant from a Theocratic States should consider it a Privilege to be in a Secular Society. They need to Respect the Laws and live According to the Wishes of the People of the Land! .





Dude no one forced them to live in these theocratic state but the west seem to force Muslims to live in Europe, Canada and the US
by:
1) Invading and bombing in their country see ho many Iraq and Afgan came after the War
2) Starving them by taking thier resources
3) Starting political unrest

I don't see Muslim coming into the west with STealth bomber and tanks
so your aguement is pretty muted.

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## ARSENAL6

ephone said:


> Mind your spelling first.


 
Mind your English comprehension first. His spelling is fine but your English comprehension is crap ! 
Its kinda funny when people like ephone shout on others on how bad other people spellings are and when they themselves know nothing about English - LOL


Here is the original post by Raja.Pakistani




Raja.Pakistani said:


> Ephone go pick fight somewhere else. You cannot argument with mature peoples






ephone said:


> When you are in their country, you should obey their laws.
> 
> Do not like that??? Go home. Nobody begs you to stay there.



Really can you tell the rest of ex patriates who are from the US that are living in Saudi to go cus they are not following the law - drinking alcohol and such. Or what about the British that go to spain run it as if they are in England council estates should they go because they are not following the law by getting themseves drunk and causeing havof on the streets of spain.

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## Raja.Pakistani

Burnz said:


> Exactly.
> An Immigrant from a Theocratic States should consider it a Privilege to be in a Secular Society. They need to Respect the Laws and live According to the Wishes of the People of the Land!


 
We respect their laws. We are talking about law of secular Country which is being violated with this ban 

I think no one answer my question that what trouble peoples faced in France because of veil before implementation of this ban?

What danger veil bring to french society? Why they are feeling threatened with piece of clothe?

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## ChineseTiger1986

ARSENAL6 said:


> Mind your English comprehension first. His spelling is fine but your English comprehension is crap !
> Its kinda funny when people like ephone shout on others on how bad other people spellings are and when they themselves know nothing about English - LOL


 
He has all the traits of bigotry of an angry white man, except his skin is yellow.

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## JanjaWeed

bad move by french govt. this is a classic case of reverse secularism. it's only done to please the right wing nationalists, which is an insidious & dangerous practice which will result in greater radicalisation of muslim community in france! french govt has to stop this dangerous & subversive trend, otherwise you will see more & more young women in veils, burkhas than before & they will isolate theselves from rest of the population. this can not be good at all for france as a country!!

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## ARSENAL6

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> He has all the traits of bigotry of an angry white man, except his skin is yellow.


 
 LMAO 

Good one !


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## ChineseTiger1986

ARSENAL6 said:


> LMAO
> 
> Good one !



This is the trait of some Chinese people who suffer with the inferiority complex.

We call them banana, because they are yellow outside, but white inside.

These people have desperatedly sought the acceptance from the white people, and looking down towards their fellow countrymen and other group of non-white people will make them feel better.

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## ARSENAL6

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This is the trait of some Chinese people who suffer with the inferiority complex.
> 
> We call them banana, because they are yellow outside, but white inside.
> 
> These people have desperatedly sought the acceptance from the white people, and looking down towards their fellow countrymen and other group of non-white people will make them feel better.


 
Dude you're crackng me up ! But seriously lets not steep down to his level if he wants to be racist let him the mods will get him. I don't want you to be ban by fools such as him

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## 53fd

I found this very informative:


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## iPakMan

ARSENAL6 said:


> It TAkes one to know one  see in red
> 
> btw what the heck does me being ISraeli or not got to with the topic at hand , just being all heated up and jealous Indian hindu because you're not one. Ashamed to be Hindu Ipakman ?
> We all know what you RAcist username implies
> 
> And what are you implying in bold ? Do you support Nazism iPakman
> 
> Post reported


 
I support getting rid of the disease that you are from my country, i support creating Palestine so we can throw people like you there to rot.
Where exactly are you "up North"? I can see from your posts that you are an Arab living in Israel, enjoying the benefits of being a citizen and hoping for her destruction at the same time.
You disgust me, you are everything i stand against. We shall see who will be destroyed.


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## chops3d

i always thought ephone was a pakistani living in china


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## Roybot

bilalhaider said:


> Why don't Burka clad women cover their eyes as well? After all, the eyes are a symbol of beauty as well. Being naked in public here in the US is unlawful, what's wrong with Burka being banned? A lot of women think that the Burka represents Islamic identity, I don't think it does. I find it offensive to think that Islam would not allow women to breathe freely from the air in the surroundings, & would impose covering their mouth & nose to make it hard for them to breathe. This is not what Islam is about in my opinion. Many women become even more resilient when they feel the world is against them & the way they dress.
> 
> 
> Many women use the Burka as a means of combating perceived "suppression", discrimination that they face from society for the way they dress or who they are, for asserting an individualistic identity. And these are wrong motives to be observing head cover in my opinion. It's not about being resilient to others that don't approve of your actions, Islam encourages Muslims to integrate well into society & being a useful & valuable citizen than sticking out like a sore thumb. The Burka does that: it isolates women & confines them to themselves, & makes them stick out like a sore thumb in public.



Well said bro, too bad now these people here will say that you are not a muslim and you are sucking up to white men, maybe even call you a coconut, brown from outside, white on the inside.

This is exactly the reason why we are seeing this anti burqa law in France. Certain sections of Muslims being unable to agree or even listen to others point of view. They think, they are always right.


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## ChineseTiger1986

chops3d said:


> i always thought ephone was a pakistani living in china


 
I start to believe his true intention in this forum is trolling, and creating the conflict between Chinese and Muslims.

Before, he had a Pakistani flag, now it turns out he is Anti-Muslim and Pro-West.

That pretty much explains everything.

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## chops3d

@ topic: i feel when europeans are doing right now is to pisss off muslims there and gradually give them impression, they are not welcomed, and eventually muslims will hav to leave europe while it turns intolerant and extremist

btw i feel that in europe one has freedom to room naked and shamelessly show his/her reproductive organs, but cant seem to tolerate dinified women coverning themselves up and being moderate abt their dressing, this is beginning of barbarianism there, as quran also states that before judgement day, there will be lack of literate people, with the advancement of science and tech the essence of human civilization is gradually losing from europe like an epidemic, it will destroy them one day!!! west society is turning into animal society


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## Raja.Pakistani

roy_gourav said:


> Well said bro, too bad now these people here will say that you are not a muslim and you are sucking up to white men, maybe even call you a coconut, brown from outside, white on the inside.



Dont worry we will not say anything to him. Its his personal opinion and those who wear veil they have their own reasons. My personal opinion is not much different to Bilal.

But do i have right to impose my personal like or dislike on others? No I dont have this right


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Listen to this:


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I start to believe his true intention in this forum is trolling, and creating the conflict between Chinese and Muslims.
> 
> Before, he had a Pakistani flag, it turns out he is Anti-Muslim and Pro-West.
> 
> That pretty much explains everything.


 
Oh yea and i was going to ask him to take off this Flag but he did it himself


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

chops3d said:


> @ topic: i feel when europeans are doing right now is to pisss off muslims there and gradually give them impression, they are not welcomed, and eventually muslims will hav to leave europe while it turns intolerant and extremist
> 
> btw i feel that in europe one has freedom to room naked and show his/her reproductive organs, but can seem to tolerate covered women, this is beginning of barbarianism there, as quran also states that before judgement day, there will be lack of literate people, with the advancement of science and tech the essence of human civilization is gradually losing from europe like an epidemic, it will destroy them one day!!!


 
In the West, even the **** insdustry is rampant, still the pervertism and the animalistic way of sexuality are turned out of the control.

You are right, this is the true barbarianism.


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## Roybot

chops3d said:


> *btw i feel that in europe one has freedom to room naked and shamelessly show his/her reproductive organs, but cant seem to tolerate dinified women coverning themselves up and being moderate abt their dressing,*


 
Have you been to Europe mate? Stop thriving on stereotypes!


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## ovarel

roy_gourav said:


> maybe even call you a coconut, brown from outside, white on the inside.



lol..its 02:45 here but i laughed loudly..it was very creative,seriously..

if you ask me people may have different opinions and its natural..a muslim also can criticise others understanding of islam..but if the issue gets an obssesive state,i oppose it..just like i did to the apple iphone guy..he was obviously obsesive about islam..


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## 53fd

roy_gourav said:


> Well said bro, too bad now these people here will say that you are not a muslim and you are sucking up to white men, maybe even call you a coconut, brown from outside, white on the inside.
> 
> This is exactly the reason why we are seeing this anti burqa law in France. Certain sections of Muslims being unable to agree or even listen to others point of view. They are always right.



No, I'm a very moderate Muslim, as is my family. We pray 5 times a day, don't drink alcohol or eat 'Haram' food. My mom covers her head, but my sister doesn't. However, my sister dresses very modestly, & she covers her body 'fully' (legs, arms). My sister & I do not get into premarital relationships (we aren't allowed to as per our religion), & we respect the people (elders especially) in our lives & try to form good relations with everyone we know in our lives. My sister is independent, goes to work & has a good job. And that's pretty much the same for me. We love our family, our relatives, our friends, everyone around us. We try to get along well with everyone. We read the Quran regularly, & try to understand it well. We are not disinclined to religion in any way. I think some people tend to become overzealous in their beliefs to a point where their beliefs aren't in line with that particular belief system anymore.

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## Roybot

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Dont worry we will not say anything to him. Its his personal opinion and those who wear veil they have their own reasons. My personal opinion is not much different to Bilal.
> 
> But do i have right to impose my personal like or dislike on others? No I dont have this right


 
Then why is ephone being attacked? Is he not entitled to his own opinions?


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## Raja.Pakistani

ovarel said:


> lol..its 02:45 here but i laughed loudly..it was very creative,seriously..
> 
> if you ask me people may have different opinions and its natural..a muslim also can criticise others understanding of islam..but if the issue gets an obssesive state,i oppose it..just like i did to the apple iphone guy..he was obviously obsesive about islam..


 
Its ok to have difference of opinions as long as we don't impose our opinion on others

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## iPakMan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I start to believe his true intention in this forum is trolling, and creating the conflict between Chinese and Muslims.
> 
> Before, he had a Pakistani flag, it turns out he is Anti-Muslim and Pro-West.
> 
> That pretty much explains everything.


 
His intention here is to speak his mind, is this the "we all love everything the same way" forum?
What makes you think you represent anymore than he does the chinese people?
Conflict between Chinese and Muslims, right. Then what are the Uyghurs people? 
You`re fine when your own country literally crushed Islamic ideas and Separatist ideas but you are Pro-Muslim and defend Islam?
The Chinese have by far most cruelly dealt with Muslim Separatists/Extremists in the last century.
Don`t be a hypocrite, you defend Chinese-Muslim relations as long as they are useful to outside of China, disregarding the Muslims in China.


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## Raja.Pakistani

roy_gourav said:


> Then why is ephone being attacked? Is he not entitled to his own opinions?


 
sure but he was bringing off topic , irrelevant discussion to bash islam  

there is a difference between discussing something or insulting something without any evidence


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## Roybot

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Its ok to have difference of opinions as long as we don't impose our opinion on others


 
Do you believe in what "majority" wants? If say 50-100 years down the line, UK becomes Muslims majority country, and they want Shariah Law imposed, but the remaining minority doesn't want it, would you as UK Muslim listen to the grievances of UK minorities?

No offence to anyone's religious belief here, but if God didn't want our women folk to be seen, he could have just covered the face of women with facial hair or something, he is the one who made us after all?

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## khanz

Raja.Pakistani said:


> I am not comparing sari with burqa but i am comparing one dress code with other. One cultural dress with other. I understand very well the bold part and I was repeating the same things again and again that in secular country peopels are free to practice their religion or culture as long as they don't hurt anyone else
> 
> How does wearing Burqa bring trouble in public? which trouble French peoples faced because of burqa before implementation of this ban?
> 
> Questions need to be answer


 
c'mon man emotions aside burqa is impractical it covers your entire face and therefore hides your identity it's not really part of islam anyway hijab is good.

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## ChineseTiger1986

iPakMan said:


> His intention here is to speak his mind, is this the "we all love everything the same way" forum?
> What makes you think you represent anymore than he does the chinese people?
> Conflict between Chinese and Muslims, right. Then what are the Uyghurs people?
> You`re fine when your own country literally crushed Islamic ideas and Separatist ideas but you are Pro-Muslim and defend Islam?
> The Chinese have by far most cruelly dealt with Muslim Separatists/Extremists in the last century.
> Don`t be a hypocrite, you defend Chinese-Muslim relations as long as they are useful to outside of China, disregarding the Muslims in China.


 
These Uyghur separatists were backed by the West, and they also killed other Muslim groups for no reason.

Many Hui Muslims also got killed because they look like Han Chinese.

In the past, not much conflict between China and Islam, except one battle between the Tang Dynasty and the Arabic Empire in Central Asia in 750AD.

Our last conflict with Islam was just a territorial battle that happened more than 1200 years ago, this is nowhere near the level of the bad blood between Christianity and Islam.

And stop equating China with the West, and we won't buy your Divide and Conquer tactics.


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## ovarel

roy_gourav said:


> Do you believe in what "majority" wants? If say 50-100 years down the line, UK becomes Muslims majority country, and they want Shariah Law imposed, but the remaining minority doesn't want it, would you as UK Muslim listen to the grievances of UK minorities?
> 
> No offence to anyone's religious belief here, but if God didn't want our women folk to be seen, he could have just covered the face of women with facial hair or something, he is the one who made us after all?


 
dude..i think that burqa has no place in islam..but who are we tell a woman that you cant wear it..her freedom of wearing burqa should be protected too.

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## desiman

all socially limiting Religious customs should be banned, not only the Hijab but the Kirpan also and any other such backward traditions. Those customs had a significance in their times, in the modern world they are a symbol of backward thinking. The world needs to move on, good going France.


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## ovarel

desiman said:


> all socially limiting Religious customs should be banned, not only the Hijab but the Kirpan also and any other such backward traditions. Those customs had a significance in their times, in the modern world they are a symbol of backward thinking. The world needs to move on, good going France.


 
banning is the oldest tradition my friend..spare us your positivist thinking.


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## iPakMan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> These Uyghur separatists were backed by the West, and they also killed other Muslim groups for no reason.
> 
> Many Hui Muslims also got killed because they look like Han Chinese.
> 
> In the past, not much conflict between China and Islam, except one battle between the Tang Dynasty and the Arabic Empire in Central Asia in 750AD.
> 
> Our last conflict with Islam was just a territorial battle that happened more than 1200 years ago, this is nowhere near the level of the bad blood between Christianity and Islam.
> 
> And stop equating China with the West, and we won't buy your Divide and Conquer tactics.



I am not equating China with the West because i know for a fact the West is wrong here and China did it the right way.
You may not have conflicts with Muslims nations, aside the fact that you support those the US doesn`t, but Chinese people have conflicts with Muslims everyday in China. Whether its the separatists or the Hui and Han Chinese, there is conflict. 
Muslims die, Chinese die, China crushes her own Muslims and no one cares because China does whatever China feels like doing. One of the benefits of being a Great power, you are being a hypocrite by suggesting Chinese have good relations with Islam.
China has good relations with Muslim Nations not Muslim people inside of China.


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## Roybot

ovarel said:


> dude..i think that burqa has no place in islam..but who are we tell a woman that you cant wear it..her freedom of wearing burqa should be protected too.


 
Fair point, but can we really ascertain that some women really want to cover their face whenever in public? I mean she has been told to cover up cause thats what has been told in written the Quran, she being a very religious person and is just doing what she has been told is the right thing to do. But is it true? Does the Quran asks women folk to cover up?

I think instead of issuing fines to these women folk who wear burqa and reading them the French Citizenship stuff, read them the correct interpretation of Islam which doesn't asks women folk to cover their face and then leave it upto them to decide if they still want to wear Burqa or not.


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## chops3d

bilalhaider said:


> No, I'm a very moderate Muslim, as is my family. We pray 5 times a day, don't drink alcohol or eat 'Haram' food. My mom covers her head, but my sister doesn't. However, my sister dresses very modestly, & she covers her body 'fully' (legs, arms). My sister & I do not get into premarital relationships (as we aren't allowed to as per our religion), & we respect the people (elders especially) in our lives & try to form good relations with everyone we know in our lives. My sister is independent, goes to work & has a good job. And that's pretty much the same for me. We love our family, our relatives, our friends, everyone around us. We try to get along well with everyone. We read the Quran regularly, & try to understand it well. We are not disinclined to religion in any way. I think some people tend to become overzealous in their beliefs to a point where their beliefs aren't in line with that particular belief system anymore.


 
how about next time your country disallows her to even cover your mother her head???, and reason is given its midievel


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## ChineseTiger1986

iPakMan said:


> I am not equating China with the West because i know for a fact the West is wrong here and China did it the right way.
> You may not have conflicts with Muslims nations, aside the fact that you support those the US doesn`t, but Chinese people have conflicts with Muslims everyday in China. Whether its the separatists or the Hui and Han Chinese, there is conflict.
> Muslims die, Chinese die, China crushes her own Muslims and no one cares because China does whatever China feels like doing. One of the benefits of being a Great power, you are being a hypocrite by suggesting Chinese have good relations with Islam.
> China has good relations with Muslim Nations not Muslim people inside of China.


 
How many Chinese Muslims have you met?

Please don't throw out the words without any substantiated proof.


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## Raja.Pakistani

roy_gourav said:


> Do you believe in what "majority" wants? If say 50-100 years down the line, UK becomes Muslims majority country, and they want Shariah Law imposed, but the remaining minority doesn't want it, would you as UK Muslim listen to the grievances of UK minorities?
> 
> No offence to anyone's religious belief here, but if God didn't want our women folk to be seen, he could have just covered the face of women with facial hair or something, he is the one who made us after all?


 
You don't understand the fact that peoples have different views about modesty and they come from different cultures. How wearing veil of a woman hurt anyone else and if it don't have any affect on you then why you feel the need to oppose it. They are not asking government to make veil obligatory for every single woman living there. They just want their personal freedom to wear whatever they want to wear. How you would feel if state dictate you what you should eat or wear? State is there to protect the basic right of peoples not to take their rights away from them.

Again there would be many peoples who would argue that they get temptation when a young women walk half naked on street then should they have right to interfere in her personal choice? No they can close their eyes but they cannot tell her that why she is wearing such dress to get extra attention ...its all bout ur personal freedom and basic right nothing else


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## 53fd

chops3d said:


> how about next time your country disallows her to even cover your mother her head???, and reason is given its midievel


 
I do not see the Hijab/headcover in the same category as the niqab. I do not see any reason why the headcover should or could be banned, unless they are thinking of banning all outward religious symbols in public, including turbans (Sikhs) & kippah (Jews) anything else. In which case, I think people from all religions who are staunch about protecting their religious values should go back to their country of origin.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> How many Chinese Muslims you have met?
> 
> Please don't throw out the words without any substantiated proof.


 
Fox news.....


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## ovarel

roy_gourav said:


> Fair point, but can we really ascertain that some women really want to cover their face whenever in public? I mean she has been told to cover up cause thats what has been told in the Quran, she being a very religious person and is just doing what she has been told, but is it true? Does the Quran asks women folk to cover up?


 
i urge you to take a look at the concepts of positive freedom and negative freedom.

the thing is we cant be sure that a woman wearing a mini-skirt does it with her free will..modernity domination?

anyway,whats good in banning it?

hijab,headscarves is ok for islam but burqa is sth cultural.


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## iPakMan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> How many Chinese Muslims you have met?
> 
> Please don't throw out the words without any substantiated proof.



I can only go on the knowledge i`ve gathered. I`ve talked to Chinese people from Xinjiang who know first hand what this conflict is like, i look it up in the news, Wikipedia and so on. I`m not Chinese nor do i care very much what China does to Islamists.


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## DesiGuy

can't blame them.............


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## ChineseTiger1986

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Fox news.....


 
I think this grandma is the only Chinese Muslim he has seen in his life.


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## iPakMan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I think this grandma is the only Chinese Muslim he has seen in his life.


 
I answered how i know what i know, laughing it off just degrades yourself.
Like i said, i have no sympathy for them.


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## SpArK

desiman said:


> all socially limiting Religious customs should be banned, not only the Hijab but the Kirpan also and any other such backward traditions. Those customs had a significance in their times, in the modern world they are a symbol of backward thinking. The world needs to move on, good going France.


 
Some dress habits are more of cultural and regional than of the religion aspect.

I dont really agree that traditions whether its backward or old should nt be let off just for the sake of modernity. Take the case of India itself, when we look into the rural folk they have a certain dress habit that has been following from centuries. I wont actually suggest it to be scrapped and tell them to think modern and start wearing tshirts and jeans.

I too agree that dress which conceal the identity of a person should be banned , but traditional dress like hijab which only covers the hair has to be free and of choice for woman to choose to wear or not. 

Offtopic: I have seen in my state , of lately government promoting to wear khadi traditional dress atleast for 1 day every week . I supported that. It reminded people of the roots.

Modern outlook is what we have conceived in our mind as westerners wear. 

Why cant we consider our own traditional dresses as modern . Do the set of practices followed by westerners , a standard norm for what the modern outlook is?

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## ovarel

iPakMan said:


> I answered how i know what i know, laughing it off just degrades yourself.
> Like i said, i have no sympathy for them.


 
unfortunately you have no sympathy for goyim.


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## ChineseTiger1986

iPakMan said:


> I answered how i know what i know, laughing it off just degrades yourself.
> Like i said, i have no sympathy for them.


 
Then mind your own business!!!

Stop spreading the lie that Muslim population got persecuted in China.


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## ephone

Raja.Pakistani said:


> sure but he was bringing off topic , irrelevant discussion to bash islam
> 
> there is a difference between discussing something or insulting something without any evidence


 
My discussion is on topics while it is yours who are off topics. 

BTW, you clearly cannot distinguish the difference between criticism and insult.


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## Raja.Pakistani

SpArK said:


> Some dress habits are more of cultural and regional than of the religion aspect.
> 
> I dont really agree that traditions whether its backward or old should nt be let off just for the sake of modernity. Take the case of India itself, when we look into the rural folk they have a certain dress habit that has been following from centuries. I wont actually suggest it to be scrapped and tell them to think modern and start wearing tshirts and jeans.
> 
> I too agree that dress which conceal the identity of a person should be banned , but traditional dress like hijab which only covers the hair has to be free and of choice for woman to choose to wear or not.
> 
> Offtopic: I have seen in my state , of lately government promoting to wear khadi traditional dress atleast for 1 day . I supported that. It reminded people of the roots.
> 
> Modern outlook is what we have conceived in our mind as westerners wear.
> 
> Why cant we consider our own traditional dresses as modern . Do the set of practices followed by westerners , a standard norm for what the modern outlook is?


 
well some peoples confuse modernism with Westernism which is wrong.


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## iPakMan

ovarel said:


> unfortunately you have no sympathy for goyim.



If i that were true friend, i wouldn`t be with "goy" women would i?


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## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> My discussion is on topics while it is yours who are off topics.
> 
> BTW, you clearly cannot distinguish the difference between criticism and insult.


 
Dude, if you don't like the Muslims, then just stay away from them.

And no one is forcing you to interact with them.

And it is up to them to keep their own custom, we have really no business to do here.

Why can't you just leave them alone?


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## ovarel

Raja.Pakistani said:


> well some peoples confuse modernism with Westernism which is wrong.


 
the problem is not the confusion of westernism or modernism..they both shouldnt be regarded as Gods..thats the problem of modernism..it claims that it destroys the domination of religions but it creates its own domination on people.


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## iPakMan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Then mind your own business!!!
> 
> Stop spreading the lie that Muslim population got persecuted in China.


 
Then learn to respect other people`s opinions especially when they are not comfortable in your world where China doesn`t persecute Muslims in China.


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## ephone

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Oh yea and i was going to ask him to take off this Flag but he did it himself


 
Do you know why I take it off? It seems so many members here initiate attacks on me simply because I have criticized several brutal and ugly practices in muslim countries. 

Then I am labeled as someone who is anti-islam, islamophobia, pathological liar and the list goes on and on...

Only one or two muslim members have shown certain understanding, e.g. one member on Page 18.

Talking about tolerance in islam? What tolerance? You cannot even allow criticism and accuse others' criticism as insult. 

As well as for the main topic, burqa ban, well, with your shallow minds, would those islam males peacefully let their females go freely if they refuse to wear burqa or certain members choose to become apostate???


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## malllawcha

Hui Rebellion in Gansu and Shaanxi 1862-1877

Throughout the 270 years of Qing dynasty history, the development of Hui people in Shaanxi province had been through a huge up and down process. At the beginning of Qing, the Hui population totaled about 845,000; it increased to 1,700,000 within 200 years. (Another source is from the Qing Government's population records and Zuo Zhongtang's written records which showed there were 13 million people including 4 million Muslims in Shanxi province prior to the revolt) But because of the Hui Rebellion in Gansu and Shaanxi during Tongzhi's reign, the total loss to the Shaanxi Hui people was as high as 1,550,000, the Hui population was reduced to 150,000 at the end of the war, over 91% of the Hui people vanished.

During the war, the loss to the Han Chinese population was much higher (the translation in the original Chinese textbook did not indicate a total number, however, Zuo Zhongtang estimated that 4 millions Muslims in Shanxi Province were wiped out - this is also hinted in Zuo ZhongTang's written record that he felt deeply sad and sorry that ethnic genocide occurred in Shanxi and that Muslim population suffered annihilation), but relatively speaking, because the percentage of Hui's population loss was so high(91%), the whole population was nearly wiped out, they were put near the edge of extinction[citation needed]. Before the war, many provinces had Hui people living quarters; none could be seen at the end of the war...Shaanxi province's ethnic composition was changed drastically (by the war)....in China's fourth National Census in the 1990s, there were only 132,000 Hui Chinese in Shaanxi province. End of translation. Original Chinese text is on the talk page.[36]


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## 53fd

Interesting debate:


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## Raja.Pakistani

ovarel said:


> the problem is not the confusion of westernism or modernism..they both shouldnt be regarded as Gods..thats the problem of modernism..it claims that it destroys the domination of religions but it creates its own domination on people.


 
actually what i am saying is peoples don't need to adopt western culture to prove that they are modern individuals. You can be modern by following any culture exist on this planet


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## Chinese-Dragon

iPakMan said:


> Then learn to respect other people`s opinions especially when they are not comfortable in your world where China doesn`t persecute Muslims in China.


 
There is no such persecution in China.

The riots in Xinjiang were "ethnic riots"... it had nothing to do with religion. They were ethnic riots, and the vast majority of casualties were Han Chinese.


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## ChineseTiger1986

malllawcha said:


> Hui Rebellion in Gansu and Shaanxi 1862-1877
> 
> Throughout the 270 years of Qing dynasty history, the development of Hui people in Shaanxi province had been through a huge up and down process. At the beginning of Qing, the Hui population totaled about 845,000; it increased to 1,700,000 within 200 years. (Another source is from the Qing Government's population records and Zuo Zhongtang's written records which showed there were 13 million people including 4 million Muslims in Shanxi province prior to the revolt) But because of the Hui Rebellion in Gansu and Shaanxi during Tongzhi's reign, the total loss to the Shaanxi Hui people was as high as 1,550,000, the Hui population was reduced to 150,000 at the end of the war, over 91% of the Hui people vanished.
> 
> During the war, the loss to the Han Chinese population was much higher (the translation in the original Chinese textbook did not indicate a total number, however, Zuo Zhongtang estimated that 4 millions Muslims in Shanxi Province were wiped out - this is also hinted in Zuo ZhongTang's written record that he felt deeply sad and sorry that ethnic genocide occurred in Shanxi and that Muslim population suffered annihilation), but relatively speaking, because the percentage of Hui's population loss was so high(91%), the whole population was nearly wiped out, they were put near the edge of extinction[citation needed]. Before the war, many provinces had Hui people living quarters; none could be seen at the end of the war...Shaanxi province's ethnic composition was changed drastically (by the war)....in China's fourth National Census in the 1990s, there were only 132,000 Hui Chinese in Shaanxi province. End of translation. Original Chinese text is on the talk page.[36]


 
Another Wikipedia source, no credibility at all.

Zuo ZhongTang mostly killed those rebellions because of their separatist movement, not because of their religion, and this order was given by the Manchu government. It has nothing to do with the Han Chinese. In fact, Han Chinese becomes the scapegoats and got retaliated by the rebellions because the order given by the Qing Dynasty.


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## ephone

So far, I still consider you are a moderate muslim since your post indeed has broad understanding of the issues in discussion. If most members here are just so easily to get agitated when others offer their criticism against certain bad practices in muslim community/countries, they should stop lecturing me or anyone about "tolerance" in islam society.



bilalhaider said:


> No, I'm a very moderate Muslim, as is my family. We pray 5 times a day, don't drink alcohol or eat 'Haram' food. My mom covers her head, but my sister doesn't. However, my sister dresses very modestly, & she covers her body 'fully' (legs, arms). My sister & I do not get into premarital relationships (as we aren't allowed to as per our religion), & we respect the people (elders especially) in our lives & try to form good relations with everyone we know in our lives. My sister is independent, goes to work & has a good job. And that's pretty much the same for me. We love our family, our relatives, our friends, everyone around us. We try to get along well with everyone. We read the Quran regularly, & try to understand it well. We are not disinclined to religion in any way. I think some people tend to become overzealous in their beliefs to a point where their beliefs aren't in line with that particular belief system anymore.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> As well as for the main topic, burqa ban, well, with your shallow minds, would those islam males peacefully let their females go freely if they refuse to wear burqa or certain members choose to become apostate???


 
Sure dont you see not all muslim women are wearing burqa or hijab in pakistan.Your problem is you have preconceived ideas about islam which you are not willing to change even when peoples are trying hard to make you understand


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## Chinese-Dragon

ephone said:


> Do you know why I take it off? It seems so many members here initiate attacks on me simply because I have criticized several brutal and ugly practices in muslim countries.
> 
> Then I am labeled as someone who is anti-islam, islamophobia, pathological liar and the list goes on and on...
> 
> Talking about tolerance in islam? What tolerance? You cannot even allow criticism and accuse others' criticism as insult.
> 
> As well as for the main topic, burqa ban, well, with your shallow minds, would those islam males peacefully let their females go freely if they refuse to wear burqa or certain members choose to become apostate???


 
Coming to a Pakistani defence forum, assigning yourself a Chinese flag, and then attacking Islam?

China's most important ally is a Muslim nation, i.e. Pakistan. As I'm sure you already know.


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## ovarel

ephone said:


> I support the French move on this one. Take that thing off or go to prison.


 
lol and this iphone talking about women rights..imprisoning is not enough,the women that wear those terrible clothes should be killed.


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## malllawcha

english wiki basically says chinese is responsible, hui people were in passive position, while chinese wiki state clearly what qing army have done is a response, kind of revenge of hui people, they start massacre on han chinese first.

Zuo ZhongTang is han, his army is formed by han too. central government is weak at that period, if this(the massacre) is a fault, Qing Manchu central government wouldnt be the only one to be blamed.


----------



## ephone

Each country has its laws. When you are in France, follow France's Laws. Sarkozy cannot change or add Laws if there is no broad support even though he is the president of France.

French people have said loud and clear about the ban. Do not like it??? Get out and go home.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Dude, if you don't like the Muslims, then just stay away from them.
> 
> And no one is forcing you to interact with them.
> 
> And it is up to them to keep their own custom, we have really no business to do here.
> 
> Why can't you just leave them alone?


----------



## ephone

ovarel said:


> lol and this iphone talking about women rights..imprisoning is not enough,the women that wear those terrible clothes should be killed.


 
What a mindless nut!!! I said "take that thing off or go to prison".

Where did I say "killed"???


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Coming to a Pakistani defence forum, assigning yourself a Chinese flag, and then attacking Islam?
> 
> China's most important ally is a Muslim nation, i.e. Pakistan. As I'm sure you already know.


 
I don't mind constructive criticism of non muslim on islam if they are willing to learn something about Islam but its sad when some non muslim try to teach islam to muslims without even knowing islam lol

as far this Ephone concern he need to learn how to raise question in polite manner. He was calling practices of islam as disgusting which show negativity exist in his mind. Why so much poison for islam when you dont even know about islam. Peoples should not learn islam from western media

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## ephone

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Coming to a Pakistani defence forum, assigning yourself a Chinese flag, and then attacking Islam?
> 
> China's most important ally is a Muslim nation, i.e. Pakistan. As I'm sure you already know.


 
Why don't you list what my attacks are??? List here. 

Think again whether those are just criticisms or baseless attacks!!!


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## 53fd

*If you don't want to show your face or who you are in public (wearing a niqab), you should probably just stay at home.* Women who's faces can't be seen by others cannot be identified by other people, hence can't do regular everyday activities in public. Home is the best place for such people.

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## ovarel

ephone said:


> What a mindless nut!!! I said "take that thing off or go to prison".
> 
> Where did I say "killed"???


 
hmm ok then..my fault

---------- Post added at 04:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 AM ----------




ephone said:


> Each country has its laws. When you are in France, follow France's Laws. Sarkozy cannot change or add Laws if there is no broad support even though he is the president of France.
> 
> French people have said loud and clear about the ban. Do not like it??? Get out and go home.


 
then,are you the spokesperson of french community?who the hell are you seriously?burqa-wearing women have a right to protest it..if their protest is democratic,then who are you to say anything..why does it bother you so much?


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## ephone

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Sure dont you see not all muslim women are wearing burqa or hijab in pakistan.Your problem is you have preconceived ideas about islam which you are not willing to change even when peoples are trying hard to make you understand


 
You just do not understand what is the real meaning. 

You see some muslim women not wearing burqa, then you can infer that not wearing burqa is tolerated in muslim countries??? 

How about those wearing burqa but indeed have no intention or are willing to wear that??? Can they freely take that off forever??? Can they freely tell their husbands, parents, relatives without any consequences??? Can they be not afraid being harmed if they choose not to wear that, or leave islam???


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## ChineseTiger1986

Raja.Pakistani said:


> I don't mind constructive criticism of non muslim on islam if they are willing to learn something about Islam but its sad when some non muslim try to teach islam to muslims without even knowing islam lol
> 
> as far this Ephone concern he need to learn how to raise question in polite manner. He was calling practices of islam as disgusting which show negativity exist in his mind. Why so much poison for islam when you dont even know about islam. Peoples should not learn islam from western media


 
Yeah. Otherwise, people could also learn Chinese from Hollywood.

I hope that ephone guy takes out his Chinese flag as he keeps acting as a talking parrot for the white racism.

White people tell you Islam is barbaric, then it must be true, right?

And White people also tell you that Chinese people are monkeys, then it must also be true, right?

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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> Each country has its laws. When you are in France, follow France's Laws. Sarkozy cannot change or add Laws if there is no broad support even though he is the president of France.
> 
> French people have said loud and clear about the ban. Do not like it??? Get out and go home.


 
French law give you freedom of expression. I met many non muslim french peoples who consider this ban as wrong and they think this ban violate basic right of peoples

You are trying your best to copy hitler lol

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## khanz

chops3d said:


> how about next time your country disallows her to even cover your mother her head???, and reason is given its midievel


 
it's not an anti-muslim move but an issue of practicality covering your head is not a security issue it does not prevent identification like a burqa/niqab does. Tunisia,turkey and even egypt have banned burqas/niqabs and they are muslim countries .


----------



## ovarel

ephone said:


> You just do not understand what is the real meaning.
> 
> You see some muslim women not wearing burqa, then you can infer that not wearing burqa is tolerated in muslim countries???
> 
> How about those wearing burqa but indeed have no intention or are willing to wear that??? Can they freely take that off forever??? Can they freely tell their husbands, parents, relatives without any consequences??? Can they be not afraid being harmed if they choose not to wear that, or leave islam???


 
yes they can..so?


----------



## iPakMan

Chinese-Dragon said:


> There is no such persecution in China.
> 
> The riots in Xinjiang were "ethnic riots"... it had nothing to do with religion. They were ethnic riots, and the vast majority of casualties were Han Chinese.



Then it must be an unfortunate fact that those that were in the riot happened to be Muslims.
Whether Arab, Uyghur, Hui etc from my experiences, religion comes first to them and then comes ethnicity/nationality.


----------



## ovarel

khanz said:


> Tunisia,turkey and even egypt have banned burqas/niqabs and they are muslim countries .



and its wrong..we will change this backwardness in Turkey..you cant ban peoples clothes,its shameful.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I hope that ephone guy takes out his Chinese flag as he keeps acting as the talking parrot for the white racism.


 
This ephone guy has really strange views, if he really is a Chinese person.


----------



## iPakMan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Yeah. Otherwise, people could also learn Chinese from Hollywood.
> 
> I hope that ephone guy takes out his Chinese flag as he keeps acting as the talking parrot for the white racism.
> 
> White people tell you Islam is barbaric, then it must be true, right?
> 
> And White people also tell you that Chinese people are monkeys, then it must also be true, right?


 
You yourself are not remotely unbiased, you clearly have hate for Americans and white people in general.
Don`t act the "sound mind", you hate the US and you are as much of a racist as any other person with prejudices.


----------



## ephone

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Coming to a Pakistani defence forum, assigning yourself a Chinese flag, and then attacking Islam?
> 
> China's most important ally is a Muslim nation, i.e. Pakistan. As I'm sure you already know.


 
Simply because of ally situation, we all need turn a blind eyes on cruel and ugly practices in muslim countries??? They should not reform their practices according to modern rules at all???


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

iPakMan said:


> You yourself are not remotely unbiased, you clearly have hate for Americans and white people in general.
> Don`t act the "sound mind", you hate the US and you are as much of a racist as any other person with prejudices.


 
I just tell the truth, not i am racist nor i hate the ordinary white people.

But Hollywood has obviously a long China bashing tradition. See how they always portray the Chinese people like freaks.


----------



## ovarel

Chinese-Dragon said:


> This ephone guy has really strange views, if he really is a Chinese person.


 
i think ephone is a female and she got sick of the womens conditions in muslim countries..i also not support the sexist actions in those countries but the way she follows is not a good one..she has turned to a fanatic..

if ephone is a male,what i wrote above is still valid.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

ephone said:


> Simply because of ally situation, we all need turn a blind eyes on cruel and ugly practices in muslim countries??? They should not reform their practices according to modern rules at all???


 
It is their own internal affairs. 

We aren't the ones (USA) who need to preach human rights to others, we already have so many of our own problems to deal with.

From a geostrategic point of view, Pakistan is our closest ally, and the Middle East has the resources we desperately need. China's policy reflects this.

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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> How about those wearing burqa but indeed have no intention or are willing to wear that??? Can they freely take that off forever??? Can they freely tell their husbands, parents, relatives without any consequences??? Can they be not afraid being harmed if they choose not to wear that, or leave islam???


 You are crazy man. Why you are so obsessed with Islam. I said many muslims women wear hijab by their own choice and those who don't choose to wear it they never get forced or killed for not wearing it. They are adult individuals who can make their own decisions and there is no point of forcing belief on someone when they are not following it from deep heart. If i put gun over ur head and ask you to become muslim then do u think it will serve any purpose when your heart is not satisfied or convinced?


----------



## iPakMan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I just tell the truth, not i am racist nor i hate the ordinary white people.
> 
> But Hollywood has obviously a long China bashing tradition. See how they always portray the Chinese people like freaks.



And so what? Does that hurt your feelings? Italians are Mafia, Muslims are terrorists, Irish are piss drunk all the time, Jews are greedy, Black people are gangsters, Latin people are cheap labor. 
Do you think you are the only one? Hollywood made movies that they thought would entertain people most but in the end they are just movies.
You need to stop looking at the bad and the racist and look at what they have accomplished as a Nation not as a Hollywood director.


----------



## Andross

One should be free to dress how they wish but in UK on 7/7 a burkha dressed male tried to escape the country but we caught him so im not sure where i stand


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## ChineseTiger1986

Chinese-Dragon said:


> It is their own internal affairs.
> 
> We aren't the ones (USA) who need to preach human rights to others, we already have so many of our own problems to deal with.
> 
> From a geostrategic point of view, Pakistan is our closest ally, and the Middle East has the resources we desperately need. China's policy reflects this.


 
Don't waste your time with him, he is obviously a CIA spy who is trying to create the conflict between China and Pakistan.

See how many Pakistani members who were trying to reasonable with him, then he has insulted them all.

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## Chinese-Dragon

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Don't waste your time with him, he is obviously a CIA spy who is trying to create the conflict between China and Pakistan.
> 
> See how many Pakistani members who were trying to reasonable with him, then he has insulted them all.


 
Maybe just a false-flag account, rather than a spy.

He is always getting into arguments with ALL the other Chinese members here.


----------



## fallstuff

ephone said:


> *Mind* your spelling first.


 
I freaking knew it. An American will never ever say "Mind You", this sounds as Indian as Dhosa. This guy should be kicked out.


----------



## tanlixiang28776

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Maybe just a false-flag account, rather than a spy.
> 
> He is always getting into arguments with all the other Chinese members here.


 
Yep. He switches from Pakistani to Chinese, to American, all in one thread.

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## ChineseTiger1986

iPakMan said:


> And so what? Does that hurt your feelings? Italians are Mafia, Muslims are terrorists, Irish are piss drunk all the time, Jews are greedy, Black people are gangsters, Latin people are cheap labor.
> Do you think you are the only one? Hollywood made movies that they thought would entertain people most but in the end they are just movies.
> You need to stop looking at the bad and the racist and look at what they have accomplished as a Nation not as a Hollywood director.


 
Nope, their movies are crap, and i barely watch them nowadays.

I just get my point that white culture is racist in general and based on racial stereotype for entertainment.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

E phone.... May God bless u man.

Negativity sucks.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Yep. He switches from Pakistani to Chinese, to American, all in one thread.


 
LOL, he is not very consistent...


----------



## ephone

ovarel said:


> yes they can..so?


 
An answer from you is really worthless. A dog's bark means more that what you have said.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Don't waste your time with him, he is obviously a CIA spy who is trying to create the conflict between China and Pakistan.
> 
> See how many Pakistani members who were trying to reasonable with him, then he has insulted them all.


 
Do u guys think tht a guy whose identity we r not clear abt can create mistrust between our ppl? kiddin me.

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## tanlixiang28776

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Do u guys think tht a guys whose identity we r not clear abt can create mistrust between our ppl? kiddin me.


 
You got to me admit though he has a strong work ethic.

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## desiman

ovarel said:


> banning is the oldest tradition my friend..spare us your positivist thinking.


 
Its better to move with time my friend, or you get left behind really fast.


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## ChineseTiger1986

fallstuff said:


> I freaking knew it. An American will never ever say "Mind You", *this sounds as Indian as Dhosa.* This guy should be kicked out.


 
Yep, another Indian troll imposter.

Nice one bro.

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## ephone

fallstuff said:


> I freaking knew it. An American will never ever say "Mind You", this sounds as Indian as Dhosa. This guy should be kicked out.


 
I am an Indian now? WOW? Where am I from? Delhi?

You are really a joker.


----------



## chops3d

desiman said:


> Its better to move with time my friend, or you get left behind really fast.


 
i thought we moved ahead by introducing tolerace in european societies, are they not moving backwards again by becoming intolerant again


----------



## ephone

Chinese-Dragon said:


> LOL, he is not very consistent...


 
What part is inconsistent? I am Chinese, living in U.S. Putting a Pakistan flag simply because: (1) China has good relation with Pakistan (2) I do hope China can have long lasting good relation with Pakistan.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

ephone said:


> What part is inconsistent? I am Chinese, living in U.S. Putting a Pakistan flag simply because: (1) China has good relation with Pakistan (2) I do hope China can have long lasting good relation with Pakistan.


 
Sorry, not even ONE single Chinese member here believes you.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> I am an Indian now? WOW? Where am I from? Delhi?
> 
> You are really a joker.


 
Bro whoever u r......Calm down n stop with the personal insults.

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## tanlixiang28776

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Sorry, not even ONE single Chinese member here believes you.


 
Administer the test. Give him a image of Chinese characters to read.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> What part is inconsistent? I am Chinese, living in U.S. Putting a Pakistan flag simply because: (1) China has good relation with Pakistan (2) I do hope China can have long lasting good relation with Pakistan.


 
&#20320;&#23567;&#23376;&#21040;&#24213;&#20309;&#26041;&#31070;&#22307;&#65292;&#21035;&#20877;&#35013;&#20102;&#65292;&#20250;&#35762;&#20013;&#25991;&#19981;&#65311;

&#26159;&#19977;&#21733;&#30340;&#35805;&#23601;&#24555;&#28857;&#25215;&#35748;&#65292;&#20154;&#23478;&#24052;&#38081;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#20107;&#36824;&#36718;&#19981;&#21040;&#20320;&#26469;&#31649;


----------



## ovarel

ephone said:


> An answer from you is really worthless. *A dog's bark means more that what you have said.*


 
maybe thats why you are barking all the time...


----------



## tanlixiang28776

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> &#20320;&#23567;&#23376;&#21040;&#24213;&#20309;&#26041;&#31070;&#22307;&#65292;&#21035;&#20877;&#35013;&#20102;&#65292;&#20250;&#35762;&#20013;&#25991;&#19981;&#65311;
> 
> &#26159;&#19977;&#21733;&#30340;&#35805;&#23601;&#24555;&#28857;&#25215;&#35748;&#65292;&#20154;&#23478;&#24052;&#38081;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#20107;&#36824;&#36718;&#19981;&#21040;&#20320;&#26469;&#31649;


 
Use a image. He can't google translate that.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Administer the test. Give him a image of Chinese characters to read.


 
No point, the opinion here against him seems to be unanimous.

Plus, he lives in America so he has an excuse for why he might not be able to read it.


----------



## iPakMan

What the hell is wrong with you people? He doesn`t agree with what should be an "obvious" support of Muslims by Chinese and suddenly he is an Indian imposter?
I thought at least you guys had more brains than to choose to believe a conspiracy rather than accept the fact that he is Chinese and he is against Islamism.


----------



## ovarel

desiman said:


> Its better to move with time my friend, or you get left behind really fast.


 
yep..thats why im against banning.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> &#20320;&#23567;&#23376;&#21040;&#24213;&#20309;&#26041;&#31070;&#22307;&#65292;&#21035;&#20877;&#35013;&#20102;&#65292;&#20250;&#35762;&#20013;&#25991;&#19981;&#65311;
> 
> &#26159;&#19977;&#21733;&#30340;&#35805;&#23601;&#24555;&#28857;&#25215;&#35748;&#65292;&#20154;&#23478;&#24052;&#38081;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#20107;&#36824;&#36718;&#19981;&#21040;&#20320;&#26469;&#31649;


 
He could use google translator..


----------



## ovarel

iPakMan said:


> What the hell is wrong with you people? He doesn`t agree with what should be an "obvious" support of Muslims by Chinese and suddenly he is an Indian imposter?
> I thought at least you guys had more brains than to choose to believe a conspiracy rather than accept the fact that he is Chinese and he is against Islamism.


 
you are glad that you have found a lunatic friend,right? poor of you...


----------



## tanlixiang28776

iPakMan said:


> What the hell is wrong with you people? He doesn`t agree with what should be an "obvious" support of Muslims by Chinese and suddenly he is an Indian imposter?
> I thought at least you guys had more brains than to choose to believe a conspiracy rather than accept the fact that he is Chinese and he is against Islamism.


 
I actually watched this thread for a while. You don't constantly change your flags unless you have something to hide.


----------



## ephone

I said I support French's ban. 

Then I got tons of attacks. 

"Why does it bother you so much?"

Maybe I should ask why some muslim members are so keen to keep those medieval thing???



ovarel said:


> hmm ok then..my fault
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> then,are you the spokesperson of french community?who the hell are you seriously?burqa-wearing women have a right to protest it..if their protest is democratic,then who are you to say anything..why does it bother you so much?


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> He could use google translator..


 
The Google translator is really bad to translate the Chinese, if he answers with it, then he is going to be debunked immediately.

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## Chinese-Dragon

iPakMan said:


> What the hell is wrong with you people? He doesn`t agree with what should be an "obvious" support of Muslims by Chinese and suddenly he is an Indian imposter?
> I thought at least you guys had more brains than to choose to believe a conspiracy rather than accept the fact that he is Chinese and he is against Islamism.


 
It is not just about this thread.

"Ephone" has been called out before, plenty of times. Not one single Chinese member in this entire forum supports him.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

iPakMan said:


> What the hell is wrong with you people? He doesn`t agree with what should be an "obvious" support of Muslims by Chinese and suddenly he is an Indian imposter?
> I thought at least you guys had more brains than to choose to believe a conspiracy rather than accept the fact that he is Chinese and he is against Islamism.


 
And wat r u sellin ?frm evil muslim hating chinese to advocating e phone against evil islamists.....lol...... man.... u guys cant even hear anythin abt halocaust...... n ur hear pushing ur own agenda.

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## khanz

ovarel said:


> and its wrong..we will change this backwardness in Turkey..you cant ban peoples clothes,its shameful.


 
yes but there should be a good balance i would support a ban against people walking around naked in public likewise i also support a ban against covering your whole face there should be a middle ground abayas and hijabs are just fine i means whats wrong in this ?






while this is too much hiding your entire face just makes it way too easy to hide your identity it's just not practical nor islamic

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## iPakMan

ovarel said:


> you are glad that you have found a lunatic friend,right? poor of you...


 
"Were you glad that you found a lunatic friend? Poor you."
No need to thank me. I don`t stand by and see someone personally attacked just because he disagrees with the Norm, maybe that`s the kind of person you are but not me.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> I said I support French's ban.
> 
> Then I got tons of attacks.
> 
> "Why does it bother you so much?"
> 
> Maybe I should ask why some muslim members are so keen to keep those medieval thing???



Yes its all evil.........n we r proud to keep it...... wats ur issue with it? r we forcing ur sister or mother to wear a hijab?


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Yep. He switches from Pakistani to Chinese, to American, all in one thread.


 
and i feel you three Chinese members are quiet intelligent

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## ovarel

ephone said:


> Maybe I should ask why some muslim members are so keen to keep those medieval thing???



lustral is good for obsesive-compulsive disorder..use it and relax.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

khanz said:


> yes but there should be a good balance i would support a ban against people walking around naked in public likewise i also support a ban against covering your whole face there should be a middle ground abayas and hijabs are just fine i means whats wrong in this ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> while this is too much hiding your entire face just makes it way too easy to hide your identity it's just not practical nor islamic


Not islamic but a cultural thing in our region... Pak-Afghanistan etc

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## fallstuff

ephone said:


> *I am an Indian now?* WOW? Where am I from? Delhi?
> 
> You are really a joker.



No. You have been one all your life.

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## tanlixiang28776

fallstuff said:


> No. You have been one all your life.


 
Yep being Indian is not like being gay. You don't just come out of the closet one day.

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## ovarel

iPakMan said:


> "Were you glad that you found a lunatic friend? Poor you."
> No need to thank me. I don`t stand by and see someone personally attacked just because he disagrees with the Norm, maybe that`s the kind of person you are but not me.


 
thank you..

anti-islam means pro-israel..thats why you are defending the obsesive apple product.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Yep being Indian is not like being gay. You don't just come out of the closet one day.


 
LOL, sorry I just had to laugh at this. 

(No offense to Indians).

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## Roybot

ok ok guys ephone is my second account, I got busted


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

ovarel said:


> thank you..
> 
> anti-islam means pro-israel..thats why you are defending the obsesive apple product.


 He follows the golden rule;
"your enemy's enemy is your friend:...


----------



## 53fd

ephone, I don't understand why you have to lie about being Chinese/American to state your opinion here? It's ok if you put up Indian flags & have a difference in opinion (without bigotry), but you have no right to troll & insult other people's religions. Islam is dear to me, but I have a difference of opinion about the niqab & am not afraid to discuss it here, without having to pretend to be someone else.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

roy_gourav said:


> ok ok guys ephone is my second account, I got busted


 
No, you are MUCH more reasonable and respectable than ephone.

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## Vassnti

khanz said:


> yes but there should be a good balance i would support a ban against people walking around naked in public likewise i also support a ban against covering your whole face there should be a middle ground abayas and hijabs are just fine i means whats wrong in this ?


 
I dont see how anyone sensible can object to a Hijab but i still think burka's are stupid and to easy to abuse.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

roy_gourav said:


> ok ok guys ephone is my second account, I got busted


 
Finally debunked. 

Next time we should request the admin for more IP checking.

BTW, just kidding, you don't sound like ephone.


----------



## ovarel

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> He follows the golden rule;
> "your enemy's enemy is your friend:...


 
they are always crying like " let us kill,let us kill,muslims are ugly"


----------



## tanlixiang28776

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Finally debunked.
> 
> Next time we should request the admin for more IP checking.


 
You didn't take that seriously did you?


----------



## khanz

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Not islamic but a cultural thing in our region... Pak-Afghanistan etc


 
yeah i know thats my point it's not infringing on muslim's rights since it's cultural not religious so there is nothing wrong in banning it muslims are still free to practive their religion in france.


----------



## iPakMan

ovarel said:


> thank you..
> 
> anti-islam means pro-israel..thats why you are defending the obsesive apple product.


 
Would it surprise you that there are Muslim Zionists? Muslims who practice their religion everyday and support Israel and the Jewish people? Or is it inconceivable for your mind to understand the difference between Islam and Muslims? I`ll make it simple for you. Islam is a religion while Muslims are people.


----------



## ovarel

Vassnti said:


>


 
hmm..so banning burqas will lower the chances of rubbery.
and look at the source:barenakedislam pfff

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## ChineseTiger1986

tanlixiang28776 said:


> You didn't take that seriously did you?


 
I was kidding.

BTW, he avoids to reply my post, so i am 99% sure his is not ethnically Chinese.


----------



## iPakMan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Finally debunked.
> 
> Next time we should request the admin for more IP checking.
> 
> BTW, just kidding, you don't sound like ephone.


 
He quoted you before you edited, you did take that seriously...


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

where is Ephone lol


----------



## 53fd

roy_gourav said:


> ok ok guys ephone is my second account, I got busted


 
Are you serious???? I'm disappointed in you man, I thought you were one of the sensible ones. YOU?


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

bilalhaider said:


> Are you serious???? I'm disappointed in you man, I thought you were one of the sensible ones. YOU?


 
He was just joking. 

Roy_gourav is one of the more reasonable Indian posters here.

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## ovarel

iPakMan said:


> Would it surprise you that there are Muslim Zionists? Muslims who practice their religion everyday and support Israel and the Jewish people? Or is it inconceivable for your mind to understand the difference between Islam and Muslims? I`ll make it simple for you. Islam is a religion while Muslims are people.


 
nope..it wouldnt surprise me since there are many of them in Turkey..i respect their choice but its impossible for me to support israel because of its policies..when are you gonna stop thinking that some people oppose israel because its a jewish state?


----------



## iPakMan

bilalhaider said:


> Are you serious???? I'm seriously disappointed in you man, I thought you were one of the sensible ones.


 
He is kidding...


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

iPakMan said:


> He quoted you before you edited, you did take that seriously...


 
I was adding the comment just avoid the misunderstanding.

BTW, my emoticon shows that i wasn't serious.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

ovarel said:


> hmm..so banning burqas will lower the chances of rubbery.
> and look at the source:barenakedislam pfff


 
U evil islamist.


----------



## Roybot

bilalhaider said:


> Are you serious???? I'm seriously disappointed in you man, I thought you were one of the sensible ones.


 






 ephone is still viewing the thread


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

ovarel said:


> hmm..so banning burqas will lower the chances of rubbery.
> and look at the source:barenakedislam pfff


 
yes no evidence that burqa was ever used for any crime let alone robbery lol

all assumptions


----------



## ephone

When I offer certain criticism against some bad practices in current muslim countries/communities, I was labeled as anti-islam, CIA, pathological liar, hitler, indian imposter, and etc. Some people are just really "creative". 

Some members wrote stuff to be against me while what they try to write against was never said by me. Well, they do not even bother to read for one minute at all.

When I defend China's position for reclaim of Taiwan and South China Sea, it seems that nobody say I am an Indian or other things. It is just so weird that I was even labelled as anti-China here by certain members.

Well, when I discuss issue related to South Tibet and indeed I think that is part of China territories, I got tons of attacks from Indian members.

In addition, when I try to offer my opinion related to two state solutions: Israel and Palestine, I suggest that division of Jerusalem is absolutely necessary to have a possible long lasting peace. Well, certain jewish members do not agree with me and insist that they will never give up jerusalem. Even then, the discussion is civil and nobody from their sides attacked me with this much energy. I think IPakMan can verify that. 

Well, I indeed mentioned that there won't be peace between the two if the the settlement building is not stopped and Jerusalem is not divided. Palestinians cannot defeat Israel since they just do not have the ability. While Israel has the ability but human right issues prevent them from doing so. Well, guess from whom I got the most attacks???

I am strongly against separatists in China and strongly advocate severe punishments against those who have committed such crimes. However, I was once even labelled as "Falun Gong" even though I thought and publicly said those are just simply nuts. 

What kinds of additional labels and attacks you can throw at me???

Well, some members here say I have conflicts with many Chinese members. First, not like some Chinese members who like to boast Chinese military power as if China can top U.S. in any day, kick India, Japan or any country's butt in any time, I simply hope they refrain themselves from doing so. Let alone we indeed do not reach that level yet. Even when we reach that level, When Ming Emperor YongLe sent ZhengHe and his fleet to South China, India, Mid-East and even Africa, even with the most powerful navy then, did you see China reflex its muscle then for conquer or simply for TRADE???

In addition, not like certain Chinese member who likely to bring IQ issue in every discussion, Indian's IQ, Chinese IQ, Jews' IQ... blah, blah, blah... as if he is the expert on IQ even though he just simply copy/paste stuff from all over the internet without even knowing what is the truth behind those sources. 

China is a developing country. Certain Chinese members seem to feel that they suddenly get to the top when they see a skyscraper built in China. Can we Chinese keep our tradition and be a little modest???

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## ChineseTiger1986

Raja.Pakistani said:


> where is Ephone lol


 
Next time, the imposter should learn the Chinese language before they want to act like Chinese.


----------



## 53fd

roy_gourav said:


> ephone is still viewing the thread


 
Ok that's good, I got scared for a second there. Couldn't believe my Bihari bro could do this to me

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## iPakMan

ovarel said:


> nope..it wouldnt surprise me since there are many of them in Turkey..i respect their choice but its impossible for me to support israel because of its policies..when are you gonna stop thinking that some people oppose israel because its a jewish state?


 
Some people do oppose Israel because it is a Jewish state, not all, definitely some.
Not you i`d imagine, your opposition is more ideological than racism. For example, my ideology and way of life is contrary to yours, so we dislike each other very much.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Next time, the imposter should learn the Chinese language before they want to act like Chinese.


 
Not even that, all they have to do is talk reasonably, and not aggravate all the other Chinese members.

But they always slip up.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Next time, the imposter should learn the Chinese language before they want to act like Chinese.


 
I think he has already started started learning them..lol

@Tanlixiang ur post made me laught man... ur a funny guy.

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## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> When I offer certain criticism against some bad practices in current muslim countries/communities, I was labeled as anti-islam, CIA, pathological liar, hitler, indian imposter, and etc. Some people are just really "creative".
> 
> Some members wrote stuff to be against me while what they try to write against was never said by me. Well, they do not even bother to read for one minute at all.
> 
> When I defend China's position for reclaim of Taiwan and South China Sea, it seems that nobody say I am an Indian or other things. It is just so weird that I was even labelled as anti-China here by certain members.
> 
> Well, when I discuss issue related to South Tibet and indeed I think that is part of China territories, I got tons of attacks from Indian members.
> 
> In addition, when I try to offer my opinion related to two state solutions: Israel and Palestine, I suggest that division of Jerusalem is absolutely necessary to have a possible long lasting peace. Well, certain jewish members do not agree with me and insist that they will never give up jerusalem. Even then, the discussion is civil and nobody from their sides attacked me with this much energy. I think IPakMan can verify that.
> 
> Well, I indeed mentioned that there won't be peace between the two if the the settlement building is not stopped and Jerusalem is not divided. Palestinians cannot defeat Israel since they just do not have the ability. While Israel has the ability but human right issues prevent them from doing so. Well, guess from whom I got the most attacks???
> 
> I am strongly against separatists in China and strongly advocate severe punishments against those who have committed such crimes. However, I was once even labelled as "Falun Gong" even though I thought and publicly said those are just simply nuts.
> 
> What kinds of additional labels and attacks you can throw at me???
> 
> Well, some members here say I have conflicts with many Chinese members. First, not like some Chinese members who like to boast Chinese military power as if China can top U.S. in any day, kick India, Japan or any country's butt in any time, I simply hope they refrain themselves from doing so. Let alone we indeed do not reach that level yet. Even when we reach that level, When Ming Emperor YongLe sent ZhengHe and his fleet to South China, India, Mid-East and even Africa, even with the most powerful navy then, did you see China reflex its muscle then for conquer or simply for TRADE???
> 
> In addition, not like certain Chinese member who likely to bring IQ issue in every discussion, Indian's IQ, Chinese IQ, Jews' IQ... blah, blah, blah... as if he is the expert on IQ even though he just simply copy/paste stuff from all over the internet without even knowing what is the truth behind those sources.
> 
> China is a developing country. Certain Chinese members seem to feel that they suddenly get to the top when they see a skyscraper built in China. Can we Chinese keep our tradition and be a little modest???


 
&#30011;&#34503;&#28155;&#36275;&#65292;&#27442;&#30422;&#24357;&#24432;

All Chinese members should understand this proverb, but too bad you are not Chinese.

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## A1Kaid

I support the ban. The burqa is extreme. I also support banning turbans in public often worn by Sikhs as this can potentially pose a security threat.

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## khanz

ovarel said:


> hmm..so banning burqas will lower the chances of rubbery.
> and look at the source:barenakedislam pfff


 
bro take it from a pakistani we of all people have most experience of all how burqas/niqabs are a security threat many suicide bombers and taliban leaders on the run have used burqas/niqabs .Think of it logically cultural bias aside something like the burqa that prevents people from knowing who you are is a blatant security issue.

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## ovarel

iPakMan said:


> Some people do oppose Israel because it is a Jewish state, not all, definitely some.
> Not you i`d imagine, your opposition is more ideological than racism. For example, my ideology and way of life is contrary to yours, so we dislike each other very much.


 
i dont think our way of life differs greatly..you would label me as a "secular Turk" when you see me..i simply dont want east jerusalem belongs to you..you are trying to take over it..so that we are and will be some sort of enemies..i hope Turkish policy wont change in the future.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

A1Kaid said:


> I support the ban. The burqa is extreme. I also support banning turbans in public often worn by Sikhs as this can potentially pose a security threat.


 
Many disagree with u bro....... Or should i say majority disagrees.......... But u have ur own opinion..... n im nobdy to force u to change it.


----------



## iPakMan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I was adding the comment just avoid the misunderstanding.
> 
> BTW, my emoticon shows that i wasn't serious.


You thought you won, you felt giddy so you added that smiley. Don`t deny it, why bother?


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

khanz said:


> bro take it from a pakistani we of all people have most experience of all how burqas/niqabs are a security threat many suicide bombers and taliban leaders on the run have used burqas/niqabs .


 
any source?


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> &#30011;&#34503;&#28155;&#36275;&#65292;&#27442;&#30422;&#24357;&#24432;
> 
> All Chinese members should understand this proverb, but too bad you are not Chinese.


 
It is too easy to Google that phrase buddy.

Use an image if you want to test.

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## iPakMan

ovarel said:


> i dont think our way of life differs greatly..you would label me as a "secular Turk" when you see me..i simply dont want east jerusalem belongs to you..you are trying to take over it..so that we are and will be some sort of enemies..i hope Turkish policy wont change in the future.


 
And i hope it will, see the difference? Anyway, Jerusalem has been ours for the last 34 years, the only question that remains is if Israel gives half of it up or not.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Chinese-Dragon said:


> It is too easy to Google that phrase buddy.


 
Oops, i just forgot these two are too famous can be Googled easily.

Anyway, he is not Chinese, it has already been proved.

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## Majnun

Can someone give the exact wording of the law?


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## Raja.Pakistani

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> &#30011;&#34503;&#28155;&#36275;&#65292;&#27442;&#30422;&#24357;&#24432;
> 
> All Chinese members should understand this proverb, but too bad you are not Chinese.



What does it mean?

Tell me and I will l forget, show me and I may remember, involve me and I will understand lol


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Oops, i just forgot these two are too famous can be Googled easily.
> 
> Anyway, he is not Chinese, it has been already proved.


 
You're right, there is no need. Nobody believes him in the first place.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

iPakMan said:


> You thought you won, you felt giddy so you added that smiley. Don`t deny it, why bother?


 
I didn't add that smiley, and there is no point for me to deny it.

But what can i do if you keep believing so?


----------



## ovarel

iPakMan said:


> And i hope it will, see the difference? Anyway, Jerusalem has been ours for the last 34 years, the only question that remains is if Israel gives half of it up or not.


i know the difference already. 
i hope the int community force you to do it..they were too tolerant to you.i think its gonna change.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Raja.Pakistani said:


> What does it mean?
> 
> Tell me and I will l forget, show me and I may remember, involve me and I will understand lol


 
It means when someone is trying to make something fake looks real, but in contrast, it looks even faker.

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## khanz

Raja.Pakistani said:


> any source?



omg you've got to be kidding me !

Terrorists in the making: In the name of

Two burqa-clad suicide bombers kill 41 in Pakistan blast - New York Daily News

also remember Maulana Abdul Aziz who threatened suicide bombing across pakistan ? don't think he was the only one who tried it

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## Raja.Pakistani

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It means when someone is trying to make the something fake looks real, but in contrast, it looks even faker.


 
Its true as truth cannot be hidden. 

Beat me with the truth, don't torture me with lies for Ephone


----------



## fallstuff

Lets argue the merit of the case in light of the EU article 9. Lets talk about how this case is in line or not with the following,

*Article 9  Freedom of thought, conscience and religion*

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, and to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

2.* Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations* as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society* in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.*

Something is unlike French is not a valid reason to EU courts. The only case against this is public safety, and maybe a health hazard. Question is does targeting 350 women serves greater public good ? The resources to prosecute could be spent on more deserving cases.


----------



## ovarel

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Yep being Indian is not like being gay. You don't just come out of the closet one day.


 
i think im the only one who didnt get this joke..


----------



## ephone

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Next time, the imposter should learn the Chinese language before they want to act like Chinese.


 
LOL. 

My Chinese is far more better than yours. I started reading books in traditional Chinese starting at 5-year old and continuously carry on reading throughout my life. Well, there is really no need to boast that ability to a jerk like you.


----------



## Majnun

I don't think Maulana Abdul Aziz can go to France now


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## ChineseTiger1986

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Its true as truth cannot be hidden.
> 
> Beat me with the truth, don't torture me with lies for Ephone


 
His Pro-China comments seemed to be very unnatural and deliberately pretending as i checked his record of posting.

No wonder he hates the friendship between China and Pakistan so much.

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## tanlixiang28776

ephone said:


> LOL.
> 
> My Chinese is far more better than yours. I started reading books in traditional Chinese starting at 5-year old and continuously carry on reading throughout my life. Well, there is really no need to boast that ability to a jerk like you.


 
fine translate. If your Chinese is that good you should have no problems doing this in under 2 minutes. I'll be timing........


----------



## ephone

These two idioms are not used together. Learn Chinese before using it.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> &#30011;&#34503;&#28155;&#36275;&#65292;&#27442;&#30422;&#24357;&#24432;
> 
> All Chinese members should understand this proverb, but too bad you are not Chinese.


----------



## ovarel

ephone said:


> LOL.
> 
> My Chinese is far more better than yours. I started reading books in traditional Chinese starting at 5-year old and continuously carry on reading throughout my life. Well, there is really no need to boast that ability to a jerk like you.



can you understand what are they saying? i really wonder it

Çin ??kencesi (+18 Dikkat! Zihinsel Geli?imi Zedeler!!!) - Video - Alk??larla Ya??yorum


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## Raja.Pakistani

khanz said:


> omg you've got to be kidding me !
> also remember Maulana Abdul Aziz who threatened suicide bombing across pakistan ? don't think he was the only one who tried it


 
Dude there are many alternate. Identity card can be issue for women who wear burqa or Niqab on regular basis. Terrorist can wear sucide jacket so should we stop wearing jackets because terrorist used jacket for sucide attacks?


----------



## ephone

Well, some of you may miss my long comments so that I post it here again:

When I offer certain criticism against some bad practices in current muslim countries/communities, I was labeled as anti-islam, CIA, pathological liar, hitler, indian imposter, and etc. Some people are just really "creative". 

Some members wrote stuff to be against me while what they try to write against was never said by me. Well, they do not even bother to read for one minute at all.

When I defend China's position for reclaim of Taiwan and South China Sea, it seems that nobody say I am an Indian or other things. It is just so weird that I was even labelled as anti-China here by certain members.

Well, when I discuss issue related to South Tibet and indeed I think that is part of China territories, I got tons of attacks from Indian members.

In addition, when I try to offer my opinion related to two state solutions: Israel and Palestine, I suggest that division of Jerusalem is absolutely necessary to have a possible long lasting peace. Well, certain jewish members do not agree with me and insist that they will never give up jerusalem. Even then, the discussion is civil and nobody from their sides attacked me with this much energy. I think IPakMan can verify that. 

Well, I indeed mentioned that there won't be peace between the two if the the settlement building is not stopped and Jerusalem is not divided. Palestinians cannot defeat Israel since they just do not have the ability. While Israel has the ability but human right issues prevent them from doing so. Well, guess from whom I got the most attacks???

I am strongly against separatists in China and strongly advocate severe punishments against those who have committed such crimes. However, I was once even labelled as "Falun Gong" even though I thought and publicly said those are just simply nuts. 

What kinds of additional labels and attacks you can throw at me???

Well, some members here say I have conflicts with many Chinese members. First, not like some Chinese members who like to boast Chinese military power as if China can top U.S. in any day, kick India, Japan or any country's butt in any time, I simply hope they refrain themselves from doing so. Let alone we indeed do not reach that level yet. Even when we reach that level, When Ming Emperor YongLe sent ZhengHe and his fleet to South China, India, Mid-East and even Africa, even with the most powerful navy then, did you see China reflex its muscle then for conquer or simply for TRADE???

In addition, not like certain Chinese member who likely to bring IQ issue in every discussion, Indian's IQ, Chinese IQ, Jews' IQ... blah, blah, blah... as if he is the expert on IQ even though he just simply copy/paste stuff from all over the internet without even knowing what is the truth behind those sources. 

China is a developing country. Certain Chinese members seem to feel that they suddenly get to the top when they see a skyscraper built in China. Can we Chinese keep our tradition and be a little modest???


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> These two idioms are not used together. Learn Chinese before using it.


 
I said they were two unconnected idioms, not one together.

BTW, answering tanlixiang's post first.

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## tanlixiang28776

Still waiting........

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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> Well, some of you may miss my long comments so that I post it here again:
> 
> When I offer certain criticism against some bad practices in current muslim countries/communities, I was labeled as anti-islam, CIA, pathological liar, hitler, indian imposter, and etc. Some people are just really "creative".
> 
> Some members wrote stuff to be against me while what they try to write against was never said by me. Well, they do not even bother to read for one minute at all.
> 
> When I defend China's position for reclaim of Taiwan and South China Sea, it seems that nobody say I am an Indian or other things. It is just so weird that I was even labelled as anti-China here by certain members.
> 
> Well, when I discuss issue related to South Tibet and indeed I think that is part of China territories, I got tons of attacks from Indian members.
> 
> In addition, when I try to offer my opinion related to two state solutions: Israel and Palestine, I suggest that division of Jerusalem is absolutely necessary to have a possible long lasting peace. Well, certain jewish members do not agree with me and insist that they will never give up jerusalem. Even then, the discussion is civil and nobody from their sides attacked me with this much energy. I think IPakMan can verify that.
> 
> Well, I indeed mentioned that there won't be peace between the two if the the settlement building is not stopped and Jerusalem is not divided. Palestinians cannot defeat Israel since they just do not have the ability. While Israel has the ability but human right issues prevent them from doing so. Well, guess from whom I got the most attacks???
> 
> I am strongly against separatists in China and strongly advocate severe punishments against those who have committed such crimes. However, I was once even labelled as "Falun Gong" even though I thought and publicly said those are just simply nuts.
> 
> What kinds of additional labels and attacks you can throw at me???
> 
> Well, some members here say I have conflicts with many Chinese members. First, not like some Chinese members who like to boast Chinese military power as if China can top U.S. in any day, kick India, Japan or any country's butt in any time, I simply hope they refrain themselves from doing so. Let alone we indeed do not reach that level yet. Even when we reach that level, When Ming Emperor YongLe sent ZhengHe and his fleet to South China, India, Mid-East and even Africa, even with the most powerful navy then, did you see China reflex its muscle then for conquer or simply for TRADE???
> 
> In addition, not like certain Chinese member who likely to bring IQ issue in every discussion, Indian's IQ, Chinese IQ, Jews' IQ... blah, blah, blah... as if he is the expert on IQ even though he just simply copy/paste stuff from all over the internet without even knowing what is the truth behind those sources.
> 
> China is a developing country. Certain Chinese members seem to feel that they suddenly get to the top when they see a skyscraper built in China. Can we Chinese keep our tradition and be a little modest???


 
Nice essay dude

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## StingRoy

@Chinese members... instead of debating and countering ephone's ideas and opinions are we really down to the level so as to give him a language test? 

Whats wrong if he has his opinions and you do not agree... All other Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi members have difference in opinion on a variety of issues, why can't you guys tolerate some Chinese opinion which is not inline with yours?

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## ovarel

im still waiting too..come on iphone.what the hell are they talkin about?


----------



## ephone

Why don't you ask them whether they have fully read "&#25991;&#24515;&#38613;&#40857;&#8220;&#65292; &#8216;&#19977;&#20384;&#20116;&#20041;&#8220;&#65292;&#8217;&#37266;&#19990;&#24658;&#35328;&#8221;&#65292;&#8220;&#21021;&#21051;&#25293;&#26696;&#24778;&#22855;&#8221;&#65311;&#65311;&#65311; 

How many &#8220;&#21776;&#35799;&#23435;&#35789;&#8221; they can remember? 

How many even read the first 10 pages of &#8220;&#36164;&#27835;&#36890;&#37492;&#8221;&#65311;&#65311;&#65311; still remember &#36158;&#35850;&#30340; &#8216;&#36807;&#31206;&#35770;&#8220;&#65311;

How many even listen to &#36830;&#20029;&#22914;&#30340; &#8216;&#22823;&#38539;&#21776;&#8220; or &#34945;&#38420;&#25104;&#30340; &#8220;&#19977;&#22269;&#28436;&#20041;&#8221;&#65311;&#65311;&#65311;

Question my Chinese???



ovarel said:


> can you understand what are they saying? i really wonder it
> 
> Çin ??kencesi (+18 Dikkat! Zihinsel Geli?imi Zedeler!!!) - Video - Alk??larla Ya??yorum


----------



## tanlixiang28776

StingRoy said:


> @Chinese members... instead of debating and countering ephone's ideas and opinions are we really down to the level so as to give him a language test?
> 
> Whats wrong if he has his opinions and you do not agree... All other Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi members have difference in opinion on a variety of issues, why can't you guys tolerate some Chinese opinion which is not inline with yours?


 
I don't know. Maybe because he isn't Chinese? I've seen him switch flags twice on this thread alone.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

StingRoy said:


> Whats wrong if he has his opinions and you do not agree... All other Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi members have difference in opinion on a variety of issues, why can't you guys tolerate some Chinese opinion which is not inline with yours?


 
Even if his written Chinese was 100% flawless, the point is... that not one single Chinese member here believes that he is one of us.

And that is our opinion. Can you tolerate our opinion? 

This guy ephone has been aggravating ALL the other Chinese members for a long time now.

He might be ethnically Chinese, I don't know. But he sure as hell doesn't have a good reputation around here.

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## StingRoy

tanlixiang28776 said:


> I don't know. Maybe because he isn't Chinese? I've seen him switch flags twice on this thread alone.


 
He never changed his Chinese flag, although if I remember correctly he used to have a Pakistani flag earlier. This forum provides a platform to debate ideas and opinions and not to question one's nationality.

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## ephone

ovarel said:


> im still waiting too..come on iphone.what the hell are they talkin about?


 
The subtitle is what they have sung. However, I have never heard of such song. Pretty weird.


----------



## ephone

tanlixiang28776 said:


> I don't know. Maybe because he isn't Chinese? I've seen him switch flags twice on this thread alone.


 
To answer your question, I switch flag only once for residency.

My Chinese flag is always there.

For residency, I put Pakistan flag initially there though I have never lived there, just for certain respect for long lasting relationship.

I switch it to residency country U.S. today. 

I do not think you have to debate that simple thing for so long. Really waste of time.

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## StingRoy

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Even if his written Chinese was 100% flawless, the point is... that not one single Chinese member here believes that he is one of us.
> And that is our opinion. Can you tolerate our opinion?


Oh believe me I can tolerate your opinion... been here on this forum long enough to learn to respect and listen to opinions from members around the world... that never meant that I will resort to personal attacks singling out a member to question his nationality. He put forth his opinion and feel free to disagree and move on.


----------



## ovarel

ephone said:


> The subtitle is what they have sung. However, I have never heard of such song. Pretty weird.


 
actually i asked it seriously..can any chinese member tell me what the song is about?

its great..i cant stop listening to it...the guys in the vid obviously having some fun..we call this song as "chinese torture" in Turkey.we dont know its real name.


----------



## ephone

tanlixiang28776 said:


> fine translate. If your Chinese is that good you should have no problems doing this in under 2 minutes. I'll be timing........


 
Translate into what??? 

Are you putting bud-dist writings here? They are not even meaningful Chinese sentence. Does not make any sense for translation into anything.


----------



## ephone

ovarel said:


> actually i asked it seriously..can any chinese member tell me what the song is about?
> 
> its great..i cant stop listening to it...the guys in the vid obviously having some fun..we call this song as "chinese torture" in Turkey.we dont know its real name.


 
They do not resemble Chinese at all. Maybe from Vietnam or Myanmar. They may just imitate.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

StingRoy said:


> Oh believe me I can tolerate your opinion... been here on this forum long enough to learn to respect and listen to opinions from members around the world... that never meant that I will resort to personal attacks singling out a member to question his nationality. He put forth his opinion and feel free to disagree and move on.


 
Thanks for the advice Dezi.


----------



## ephone

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Nice essay dude


 
That is the best you can offer???


----------



## ephone

What you have said really tell what kind of stupid person you are. 

Where is my pro-China comments un-natural or liberately pretending??? 

Why the heck do you say I hate the friendship between China and Pakistan? If I do, would I initially put a Pakistan flag there???

China and Pakistan Friendship is country to country level and government level indeed can ignore certain issues or turn a blind eye. 

For example, Pakistan helps China curb/kill those muslim separatists/terrorists in its territory even though they are muslims. China also turned a blind eye on certain issues while helping Pakistan militarily and economically. 

As a strong and important strategy partner, I indeed hope the relationship can be long lasting. 

Your stupid accusation comes out of no-where. 

Criticizing some bad brutal practices in current muslim countries equals hating China-Pakistan friendship??? You are really a fxxk-up idiot!!!



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> His Pro-China comments seemed to be very unnatural and liberately pretending as i checked his record of posting.
> 
> No wonder he hates the friendship between China and Pakistan so much.


----------



## tanlixiang28776

ephone said:


> Translate into what???
> 
> Are you putting bud-dist writings here? They are not even meaningful Chinese sentence. Does not make any sense for translation into anything.


 
At least try. I'm sure your superior Chinese skills can handle this.

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## khanz

QUOTE=Raja.Pakistani;1672216]Dude there are many alternate. Identity card can be issue for women who wear burqa or Niqab on regular basis. Terrorist can wear sucide jacket so should we stop wearing jackets because terrorist used jacket for sucide attacks?[/QUOTE]

so you can't stop suicide attacks at all having ID cards for them does not stop it being a security threat whats the point of having an ID card when you can't even identify them coz their face is covered ? lol it could be anyone under there and it's just not practical to go round lifting veils of every single burqa clad woman to see if its who they say they are but banning full face covering makes it much more difficult to hide and jacket is completely different it's worn to keep warm it does not hide your identity while burqa is for modesty but you don't need it since you can be modest without hiding your face so why can't they just wear abayas or hijabs 

Isn't this good enough ?

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## Chinese-Dragon

ephone said:


> *You are really a fxxk-up idiot!!!*


 
Well... you won't be around much longer.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

khanz said:


> QUOTE=Raja.Pakistani;1672216]
> Isn't this good enough ?



I feel you want them to use Hijab for fashion purpose but not to hide their beauty lol

I have seen your models in pakistani fashion

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## Chinese-Dragon

Let's leave ephone alone guys, he has already discredited himself more than anyone else could have done.

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## 53fd

Again, if the face is the symbol of beauty of a woman, so are the eyes. Cover the eyes *completely* too, not in a 'netted' eye cover like a niqab. Even with the niqab, a woman's eyes can be seen (albeit less prominently), so a niqab isn't "adequate" either. This is insanity.


----------



## ephone

tanlixiang28776 said:


> At least try. I'm sure your superior Chinese skills can handle this.


 
Are those the daily Chinese books you are reading? Your really need check your brain.


----------



## tanlixiang28776

ephone said:


> Are those the daily Chinese books you are reading? Your really need check your brain.


 
Still avoiding it I see. I thought you were an Chinese expert.

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## fallstuff

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> His Pro-China comments seemed to be very unnatural and liberately pretending as i checked his record of posting.
> 
> No wonder he hates the friendship between China and Pakistan so much.


 
I looked it up. He highlights things like " How China *crushes Muslim* bla bla bla," . He repeated that many many times, to a point where it starts to look odd.
Check the following, 



> However, they should not even think about anything that challenges the government. Any groups that have link with foreign governments or christian organizations even by names should take their hands off *anything that even remotely look like challenging government*. Otherwise, you will only have them to have *their freedom taken away*.






> However, if you are jumping up and down with those terrorism slogans and trying to sabotaging my country, the *only thing waiting for you is a bullet in the head,* as simple as that.
> 
> BTW, we can save the money to go through those lengthy *trials that are so popular in the west.* We have our better use for our money.

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## ephone

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Let's leave ephone alone guys, he has already discredited himself more than anyone else could have done.


 
I have no need/or interest to get any credit from fanatics like you. 

Actually, it will really be an insult to me if I get any credit from fanatics like you.


----------



## ephone

fallstuff said:


> I looked it up. He highlights things like " How China *crushes Muslim* bla bla bla," . He repeated that many many times, to a point where it starts to look odd.
> Check the following,


 
What part of my comments are unnatural? Aren't our Chinese way handling terrorists the best way? 

BTW, we Chinese do not crush any moderate normal muslims. We only handle those muslim terrorists/separatists cruelly. Well, we handle any type of terrorists/separatists cruelly as well.


----------



## ephone

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Still avoiding it I see. I thought you were an Chinese expert.


 
Avoiding what? Those Chinese letters cannot be translated into any meaningful sentence. Do not defraud those foreigners who do not read Chinese.


----------



## ephone

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well... you won't be around much longer.


 
Well, I am counting my days. Why don't start a time counter then???


----------



## tanlixiang28776

ephone said:


> Well, I am counting my days. Why don't start a time counter then???


 
I already did. I gave you two minutes to translate something excessively easy. And you still haven't done jack.

I'm not as nice as CD.


----------



## ephone

There is nothing against dressing like this. At least, facial identification software will work in this case.



khanz said:


> QUOTE=Raja.Pakistani;1672216]Dude there are many alternate. Identity card can be issue for women who wear burqa or Niqab on regular basis. Terrorist can wear sucide jacket so should we stop wearing jackets because terrorist used jacket for sucide attacks?



so you can't stop suicide attacks at all having ID cards for them does not stop it being a security threat whats the point of having an ID card when you can't even identify them coz their face is covered ? lol it could be anyone under there and it's just not practical to go round lifting veils of every single burqa clad woman to see if its who they say they are but banning full face covering makes it much more difficult to hide and jacket is completely different it's worn to keep warm it does not hide your identity while burqa is for modesty but you don't need it since you can be modest without hiding your face so why can't they just wear abayas or hijabs 

Isn't this good enough ?









[/QUOTE]


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

ephone said:


> Well, I am counting my days. *Why don't start a time counter then???*


 
You're not worth the time.


----------



## fallstuff

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Let's leave ephone alone guys, he has already discredited himself more than anyone else could have done.


 
We are just having some fun !! 

I don't really care much about Burqa. When kids see a Burqa, they usually freak out ! It is a twisted creation of the Saudis. Sarkozy dragging France to the same gutter where the wahabis thrive.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

bilalhaider said:


> Again, if the face is the symbol of beauty of a woman, so are the eyes. Cover the eyes *completely* too, not in a 'netted' eye cover like a niqab. Even with the niqab, a woman's eyes can be seen (albeit less prominently), so a niqab isn't "adequate" either. This is insanity.


 
There are some women who cover eyes too in Afghan culture


----------



## ephone

Chinese-Dragon said:


> You're not worth the time.


 
You are actually worth northing.


----------



## ephone

They lively live in that small prison. There is even no need for bars.



Raja.Pakistani said:


> There are some women who cover eyes too in Afghan culture


----------



## ephone

tanlixiang28776 said:


> I already did. I gave you two minutes to translate something excessively easy. And you still haven't done jack.
> 
> I'm not as nice as CD.


 
What the heck do you think you are? Stupid punk.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

ephone said:


> What the heck do you think you are? Stupid punk.


 


ephone said:


> You are really a fxxk-up idiot!!!


 
LOL, really classy.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> You are actually worth northing.


 
oyea you are still here

You need to take deep breathe and drink red bull as you wasted plenty of your energy in this topic


----------



## ephone

Chinese-Dragon said:


> LOL, really classy.


 
Well, that is the best I can offer to punks like you.


----------



## tanlixiang28776

ephone said:


> What the heck do you think you are? Stupid punk.


 
A punk that doesn't lie about his capabilities. A Norwegian kid could've translated the entire thing on a itouch already.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Raja.Pakistani said:


> oyea you are still here
> 
> You need to take deep breathe and drink red bull as you wasted plenty of your energy in this topic


 
The false-flag guy ephone is now raging after being caught.

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## ephone

tanlixiang28776 said:


> A punk that doesn't lie about his capabilities. A Norwegian kid could've translated the entire thing on a itouch already.


 
translation into nonsense???


----------



## tanlixiang28776

ephone said:


> translation into nonsense???


 
More than what you're doing.

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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> They lively live in that small prison. There is even no need for bars.


 

yes for you and for many others they are in prison but for them its their heaven 

so what we can do except let them in the prison they choose for themselves 

or another option is i should send you to take this thing off by force which you will happily do


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

I'm out of here guys. 

Tanlixiang buddy, don't let him bait you into a pointless flame war.

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## Raja.Pakistani

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I'm out of here guys.
> 
> Tanlixiang buddy, don't let him bait you into a pointless flame war.


 
Thanks for teaching him some good lesson

me off too

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## ephone

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Thanks for teaching him some good lesson
> 
> me off too


 
Teach me a lesson? You mindless idiot knows anything about lesson???


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> Teach me a lesson? You mindless idiot knows anything about lesson???


 
Dont show anger here man....... go out find a guy n pick a fight or somethin.

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## ephone

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Dont show anger here man....... go out find a guy n pick a fight or somethin.


 
Your tasteless comments are just annoying like flies. That is all I can say.


----------



## ARSENAL6

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> These Uyghur separatists were backed by the West, and they also killed other Muslim groups for no reason.
> 
> Many Hui Muslims also got killed because they look like Han Chinese.
> 
> In the past, not much conflict between China and Islam, except one battle between the Tang Dynasty and the Arabic Empire in Central Asia in 750AD.
> 
> Our last conflict with Islam was just a territorial battle that happened more than 1200 years ago, this is nowhere near the level of the bad blood between Christianity and Islam.
> 
> And stop equating China with the West, and we won't buy your Divide and Conquer tactics.



Ignore him he's another troll.

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## Burnz

The Chinese have no heart for the 40 Pakistanis killed by Burkha.

Two burqa-clad suicide bombers kill 41 in Pakistan blast - New York Daily News

Hypocrisy.

I hope Chinese support Burkha Ban in Pakistan.


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

Burnz said:


> I hope Chinese support Burkha Ban in Pakistan.


 
It is their own Internal affairs.

They will make their own decision.

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## Burnz

Chinese-Dragon said:


> It is their own Internal affairs.
> 
> They will make their own decision.


 
Exactly.

It is France's Internal affairs.

Why are Pakistanis and Chinese so vocal about it?


----------



## below_freezing

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> &#20320;&#23567;&#23376;&#21040;&#24213;&#20309;&#26041;&#31070;&#22307;&#65292;&#21035;&#20877;&#35013;&#20102;&#65292;&#20250;&#35762;&#20013;&#25991;&#19981;&#65311;
> 
> &#26159;&#19977;&#21733;&#30340;&#35805;&#23601;&#24555;&#28857;&#25215;&#35748;&#65292;&#20154;&#23478;&#24052;&#38081;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#20107;&#36824;&#36718;&#19981;&#21040;&#20320;&#26469;&#31649;


 
&#20804;&#24351;&#65292;&#20182;&#30830;&#23454;&#26159;&#21326;&#20154;&#65292;&#35980;&#20284;&#36824;&#22312;&#22269;&#20869;&#21463;&#36807;&#22823;&#23398;&#25945;&#32946;&#12290;&#24403;&#28982;&#65292;&#36825;&#24182;&#19981;&#25490;&#38500;&#20182;&#26159;&#27861;&#36718;&#21151;&#20043;&#27969;&#30340;&#21467;&#24466;&#12290;&#20182;&#30340;&#24456;&#22810;&#35328;&#34892;&#20030;&#27490;&#19982;&#31859;&#22269;&#26368;&#20445;&#23432;&#30340;&#21491;&#27966;&#30333;&#20154;&#26377;&#25152;&#30456;&#20284;&#65292;&#24182;&#19988;&#19982;&#19968;&#33324;&#30340;&#20013;&#22269;&#20154;&#26684;&#26684;&#19981;&#20837;&#12290;&#35828;&#23454;&#22312;&#30340;&#65292;&#20182;&#24456;&#21487;&#33021;&#26159;&#26089;&#24180;&#36212;&#31859;&#65292;&#32463;&#36807;&#20960;&#21313;&#24180;&#30340;&#23186;&#20307;&#20405;&#34432;&#34987;&#21326;&#23572;&#34903;&#25919;&#26435;&#27927;&#33041;&#30340;&#39321;&#34121;&#20154;&#12290;

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## Farooq

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You wanna stir up the tension between the Chinese and the Muslims. What is your true motive?
> 
> Did the Muslims sell the opium to the Chinese people?
> 
> Did the Muslims burn down our palace?
> 
> Did the Muslims occupy our country as 8 invading nations?
> 
> Did the Muslims exploit the Chinese workers in building the railway?
> 
> Did the Muslims rob our land in Northeast Asia and Outer Mongolia?
> 
> Did the Muslims commit the massacre in Nanjing?
> 
> China sees most of the Muslim nations as a fellow companion who both shared a unfortunate past.
> 
> Only the West and its puppets wanna see they both kill each other.


 
Very well said brother!  
The so called Chinese is clearly trying to instigate trouble between the Chinese and Muslims .... In one of the replies to his idiot's post I said that not only Pakistan, but the Muslims countries in general enjoy excellent relations with China. 

All Muslims I know admire China for it's bravery, strength and it's rapidly growing economy.

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## Farooq

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Christianity never gonna work in China, mark my word.
> 
> The Chinese people will never buy into the Christian stuffs.


 
Exactly! The Chinese people are aware of the dark, brutal past of a christian religion which is represented by whites and the west

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## Farooq

tanlixiang28776 said:


> You have a strange sense of morals showing up with an ID picture like that.


 
hypocrisy is embedded into the Indian Psyche


----------



## justanobserver

tanlixiang28776 said:


> You have a strange sense of morals showing up with an ID picture like that.


 
Well India is the land of Kamasutra. Our 'morality' is different from yours


----------



## Farooq

iPakMan said:


> His intention here is to speak his mind, is this the "we all love everything the same way" forum?
> What makes you think you represent anymore than he does the chinese people?
> Conflict between Chinese and Muslims, right. Then what are the Uyghurs people?
> You`re fine when your own country literally crushed Islamic ideas and Separatist ideas but you are Pro-Muslim and defend Islam?
> The Chinese have by far most cruelly dealt with Muslim Separatists/Extremists in the last century.
> Don`t be a hypocrite, you defend Chinese-Muslim relations as long as they are useful to outside of China, disregarding the Muslims in China.


 
you are such a hypocrite! how dare you accuse our brother of being anti-Islamic when you & your jewish terrorist state of israel is responsible for murders of countless Palestinian Muslims.... as for the Uighurs, they are a group of terrorists who have not only attacked non-Muslims, but also Muslims... it is well known they are funded by anti-Chinese elements.

moreover, Pakistan has also helped catch Uighur terrorists on their side of the border and handed right fully so to the Chinese government

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## Burnz

justanobserver said:


> Well India is the land of Kamasutra. Our 'morality' is different from yours


 
The 'Morality' brought by Islam to India has made even Kamasutra shy .


----------



## Burnz

Farooq said:


> you are such a hypocrite! how dare you accuse our brother of being anti-Islamic when you & your jewish terrorist state of israel is responsible for murders of countless Palestinian Muslims.... as for the Uighurs, they are a group of terrorists who have not only attacked non-Muslims, but also Muslims... it is well known they are funded by anti-Chinese elements.
> 
> moreover, Pakistan has also helped catch Uighur terrorists on their side of the border and handed right fully so to the Chinese government


 
So You are an Islamic Hypocrite.

Two burqa-clad suicide bombers kill 41 in Pakistan blast - New York Daily News

Muslims in *Burkha* kill Muslims. So by that logic, along with Ughyirs, even Pakistanis are terrorists?


----------



## Burnz

moreover, *Pakistan has also helped catch Uighur terrorists on their side of the border and handed right fully so to the Chinese government*[/QUOTE]

Then Why does Pakistan harbour Lashkar, Taliban, Jundullah and other Terrorist Organizations?

Hand them to India, US and Iran :d .


----------



## MilSpec

All this pakistani and chinese bull crap will not do jack towards Sarkozy's decision... You can cry beg and threaten as much as you want... but Taliban culture wont survive...


----------



## ARSENAL6

Burnz said:


> Exactly.
> 
> It is France's Internal affairs.
> 
> Why are Pakistanis and Chinese so vocal about it?


 
Two completly different issues my friend. YOu can't mix oranges and chicken meat and call it a juice best suited for vegitarians.
Beside if you had educated yourself in English, you would have read in the last 140 posts its a muslim issue involving Muslim women not non-muslim
so thats why Pakistani having a majority Muslim and China majority a muslim as well as every right to talk about the topic.

Stop acting like a dictator and telling people what they can or can't say on this forum. Beside s it freedom of speech you didn't excatly stop when there were backlashes temples in Pakistan - its a Pakistani issue not indian issue
- Or the events that took place in Kashmire - thats a Kasmira Issue not indian isssue
- or the events of Israeli-Palistine its an Israeli-arab issue not indian
- or the event Iran vs the US its an Iran and US issue not Indian
- or 9/11 happened its the US issue not indain
- or the bombing of afgans its an Afagn issue not indian
- or the events that happen in Tibet agaist China - ist an China and Tibet issue not indian

I swear some indian posters here are trying to be this and that , one minute they from US next they from isreal or from Vulcan but never trutthful and always trolling. All in all ruin the reputation of ttheir fellow countryman especailly the indian posters that honestly post here.




Burnz said:


> Muslims in *Burkha* kill Muslims. So by that logic, along with Ughyirs, even Pakistanis are terrorists?



Maybe its a Hindu on a hatred ramage against Muslims, in a burka. Just to stir-up trouble and make tthe burka permantly banned. Now I know how Sarkozy got the idea to ban them. Were you Burnz were the one in burka robbing banks in Frances ?



sandy_3126 said:


> All this pakistani and chinese bull crap will not do jack towards Sarkozy's decision... You can cry beg and threaten as much as you want... but Taliban culture wont survive...


 
Tell me what does Sarkozy has that China is sooooooooooooooooooo afraid of ?
I tell you something Talibans are kicking the west for 10 years even tthe allied soilders are getting frustrated.

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## Developereo

First of all, this burqa ban is not about secularism, since the Sikh turban or Jewish yarmulka are not being banned in public.

Secondly, it's not about preventing terrorism since raincoats are not being banned, and a terrorist is far more likely to use a raincoat than a burqa. This is Paris, not Peshawar. The last thing a terrorist wants is to stand out from the crowd, and a figure in a burqa will stand out far more than someone in a raincoat.

Thirdly, it is not about security identification since we are talking about all public places, not banks or restricted areas. If people can walk around in a helmet or with one of those nose and face covering masks which became popular during the SARS epidemic, then why single out the burqa?

Fourthly, and most emphatically, this is not about women's rights. These people couldn't care less about Muslims, male or female, and stigmatizing the people you claim to be saving does not fool anyone.

So, ultimately, it comes down to a personal choice that people don't like the look of the burqa. Personally, I don't like it either, but then again, I don't like punk hairstyles or excessive tattoos. Certainly, the French public have the right to outlaw certain dress codes, just like women can't walk around in a bikini in Muslim countries, but the reasons for the ban need to be acknowledged forthright instead of hiding behind the false claims I mentioned above.

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## Burnz

ARSENAL6 said:


> Two completly different issues my friend. YOu can't mix oranges and chicken meat and call it a juice best suited for vegitarians.
> Beside if you had educated yourself in English, you would have read in the last 140 posts its a muslim issue involving Muslim women not non-muslim
> so thats why Pakistani having a majority Muslim and China majority a muslim as well as every right to talk about the topic.
> 
> *May be Islamic Education had truncated your Illiterate Mind that you did understand What I wrote in your Mother Tounge Urdu*
> 
> Stop acting like a dictator and telling people what they can or can't say on this forum. Beside s it freedom of speech you didn't excatly stop when there were backlashes temples in Pakistan - its a Pakistani issue not indian issue
> - Or the events that took place in Kashmire - thats a Kasmira Issue not indian isssue
> - or the events of Israeli-Palistine its an Israeli-arab issue not indian
> - or the event Iran vs the US its an Iran and US issue not Indian
> - or 9/11 happened its the US issue not indain
> - or the bombing of afgans its an Afagn issue not indian
> - or the events that happen in Tibet agaist China - ist an China and Tibet issue not indian
> 
> *What happens in France is a French Issue. Nothing to do with Pakistanis, Balochis or Chinese.*
> I swear some indian posters here are trying to be this and that , one minute they from US next they from isreal or from Vulcan but never trutthful and always trolling. All in all ruin the reputation of ttheir fellow countryman especailly the indian posters that honestly post here.
> 
> 
> *Why is your English Stammered?*
> 
> 
> Maybe its a Hindu on a hatred ramage against Muslims, in a burka. Just to stir-up trouble and make tthe burka permantly banned. Now I know how Sarkozy got the idea to ban them. Were you Burnz were the one in burka robbing banks in Frances ?
> 
> *The Poor Pakistanis got blasted with Burkha.
> Two burqa-clad suicide bombers kill 41 in Pakistan blast - New York Daily News
> 
> Even Pakistan should Dump Burkha.*
> 
> 
> Tell me what does Sarkozy has that China is sooooooooooooooooooo afraid of ?
> I tell you something Talibans are kicking the west for 10 years even tthe allied soilders are getting frustrated
> *Pakistani supported Terrorism in Afghanistan. Taliban, Jundullah, Lashkar.*.


 
Get the Answers in Bold. .


----------



## Roybot

Developereo said:


> First of all, this burqa ban is not about secularism, since the Sikh turban or Jewish yarmulka are not being banned in public.



Neither is Taqiyah though?


----------



## ARSENAL6

Developereo said:


> First of all, this burqa ban is not about secularism, since the Sikh turban or Jewish yarmulka are not being banned in public.
> 
> Secondly, it's not about preventing terrorism since raincoats are not being banned, and a terrorist is far more likely to use a raincoat than a burqa. This is Paris, not Peshawar. The last thing a terrorist wants is to stand out from the crowd, and a figure in a burqa will stand out far more than someone in a raincoat.
> 
> Thirdly, it is not about security identification since we are talking about all public places, not banks or restricted areas. If people can walk around in a helmet or with one of those nose and face covering masks which became popular during the SARS epidemic, then why single out the burqa?
> 
> Fourthly, and most emphatically, this is not about women's rights. These people couldn't care less about Muslims, male or female, and stigmatizing the people you claim to be saving does not fool anyone.
> 
> So, ultimately, it comes down to a personal choice that people don't like the look of the burqa. Personally, I don't like it either, but then again, I don't like punk hairstyles or excessive tattoos. Certainly, the French public have the right to outlaw certain dress codes, just like women can't walk around in a bikini in Muslim countries, but the reasons for the ban need to be acknowledged forthright instead of hiding behind the false claims I mentioned above.



Good serious post
Although I do agree with you 99% and have thanked you
What I can't my head around is this 

"Certainly, the French public have the right to outlaw certain dress codes" THey don't this kinda behavior to control the wants and the need of an another population just because they are different shows the kind of superority that theses Europeans want toi have on ethinic minorirties since the days of WW2.
If they want to do that then they sieze to be a tolerant state. What does simple womens garment can do to cause problems to you as an individual NONE !
Its the banniing that I got a problem with it so harsh there were many other ways to get the message across. This banning thing only shows aggression.

Yes there are areas that covering the face should not be covered in areas that are security sensitive, banks, home office and such and i want to add the fact that tthe Burka is not really an Islamic dress code as in Islam it says that a woman should cover herself as to not reveal her self to tthe opposite sex. niothing more.

You mention about the bikinis -the bikinie causes recation - see how many women get raped when wearing such a garment or how much of a stir it causes. The burka never did that only by some uneducated islamaphobes.

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## ARSENAL6

Burnz said:


> Get the Answers in Bold. .


 
Get the Answers in Bold ?

Its ......"could you answer the statements in bold.." you moron ! Also why do you have capital letters iin your post:


Burnz said:


> Get the Answers in Bold. .



Didn't you know that you only put capitial letters in names and at the start of a sentence ?

Another fool trying to correct English whilst his English is very poor. 






Burnz said:


> Why is your English Stammered?


Why is yours so bad ?


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

^ Dont reply to Burnz. He is just attention seeker

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## Developereo

roy_gourav said:


> Neither is Taqiyah though?



I am not a very practicing Muslim so I have no idea what is taqiyah.

However, as regards the burqa, it is important to realize that Islam, like other religions, have many different interpretations. Most of them don't mandate a burqa, but some do. If a woman believes that her version of Islam requires her to wear a burqa, then it is her religious right, and it's nobody else's business to tell her that she is wrong. They may try to educate and convince her otherwise, but just banning it outright is not the right approach.



ARSENAL6 said:


> "Certainly, the French public have the right to outlaw certain dress codes" THey don't this kinda behavior to control the wants and the need of an another population just because they are different shows the kind of superority that theses Europeans want toi have on ethinic minorirties since the days of WW2.



Well, you are right, that is a tricky proposition. Where do you draw the line between freedom of expression (dress) and public standards? That is why I mentioned bikinis as an existing restriction on public dress to show that there is a precedent.



ARSENAL6 said:


> You mention about the bikinis -the bininie causes recation - see how many women get raped when wearing such a garment or how much of a stir it causes. The burka never did that only by some uneducated islamaphobe.


 
Again, that's tricky. It's wrong to suggest that a women 'invites' rape by dressing in a certain way, but it is clearly understood tacitly throughout most of the world to impose some restrictions on dress to minimize temptation and miscommunication. You are right the burqa doesn't fall into that category.

Like I said, I cannot think of a legitimate reason to ban the burqa other than the fact that some people don't like the look of it and consider it a social barrier. Maybe it's just xenophobia. People aren't bothered talking to their surgeon or dentist wearing a face mask, so why not a burqa?

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## Raja.Pakistani

Taqiyah is what shia practice . You hide ur faith or lie about ur beliefs to save ur life if you have fear of death. Dont know why Roy bring taqiyah in this topic

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## Roybot

Developereo said:


> I am not a very practicing Muslim so I have no idea what is taqiyah.


 


Raja.Pakistani said:


> Taqiyah is what shia practice . You hide ur faith or lie about ur beliefs to save ur life if you have fear of death. Dont know why Roy bring taqiyah in this topic


 
Sorry my bad, wiki said thats what the prayer cap(topi) is called. Whats it called in Pakistan? 

So just like Sikh turbans or the Jewish skull cap is not banned, neither is the Muslim prayer cap?


----------



## Developereo

roy_gourav said:


> So just like Sikh turbans or the Jewish skull cap is not banned, neither is the Muslim prayer cap?


 
I am not sure how that changes the fundamental issue. Just because they don't ban all Muslim symbols doesn't mean they can ban some symbols. There has to be some logic behind the ban and, based on the examples I gave above, I see nothing that singles out the burqa from other things like raincoats, helmets or face masks.


----------



## TROJAN.EXE

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Taqiyah is what shia practice . You hide ur faith or lie about ur beliefs to save ur life if you have fear of death. Dont know why Roy bring taqiyah in this topic


 
Its not particular to Shias, Sunnis are permitted to do it at times. Every society, religion and group practices it and has practiced it at one time or the other.


----------



## Roybot

Developereo said:


> I am not sure how that changes the fundamental issue. Just because they don't ban all Muslim symbols doesn't mean they can ban some symbols. There has to be some logic behind the ban and, based on the examples I gave above, I see nothing that singles out the burqa from other things like raincoats, helmets or face masks.


 
To be honest it doesn't change the fundamental issue, and in fact I absolutely agree with all the points you made in post #796. However on the paper the law is secular, thats another issue that only the Muslims will be at the receiving end of the law. 

Its like you know Australian Government makes law that everyone has to eat beef, and since the law is the same for people of all religion it is secular. But at the end of the day it will only be the Hindu Australians whose religious sensitivities will be affected.

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## Developereo

Women who can't wear the burqa should simply wear a head scarf and a face mask.






Beat the French at their own game!

It's not a crime to be germaphobic and take precautions.

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## iPakMan

Developereo said:


> Women who can't wear the burqa should simply wear a head scarf and a face mask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beat the French at their own game!
> 
> It's not a crime to be germaphobic and take precautions.


 
Yeah actually i saw a video of a muslim woman who did just that.


----------



## Burnz

ARSENAL6 said:


> Get the Answers in Bold ?
> 
> Its ......"could you answer the statements in bold.." you moron ! Also why do you have capital letters iin your post:
> 
> 
> Didn't you know that you only put capitial letters in names and at the start of a sentence ?
> 
> Another fool trying to correct English whilst his English is very poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is yours so bad ?


 
That is Perfectly Valid English as accepted in the World of Forums!

Excessive Religion leads to misquadering your Intelligicia!


----------



## Roybot

^^  No offence bro, but if you are going to question to his language skills at least make use of spell-check?


----------



## ephone

It is about showing your face. If the other two also cover people faces in normal situation, the should be banned as well.



Developereo said:


> First of all, this burqa ban is not about secularism, since the Sikh turban or Jewish yarmulka are not being banned in public.
> 
> Secondly, it's not about preventing terrorism since raincoats are not being banned, and a terrorist is far more likely to use a raincoat than a burqa. This is Paris, not Peshawar. The last thing a terrorist wants is to stand out from the crowd, and a figure in a burqa will stand out far more than someone in a raincoat.
> 
> Thirdly, it is not about security identification since we are talking about all public places, not banks or restricted areas. If people can walk around in a helmet or with one of those nose and face covering masks which became popular during the SARS epidemic, then why single out the burqa?
> 
> Fourthly, and most emphatically, this is not about women's rights. These people couldn't care less about Muslims, male or female, and stigmatizing the people you claim to be saving does not fool anyone.
> 
> So, ultimately, it comes down to a personal choice that people don't like the look of the burqa. Personally, I don't like it either, but then again, I don't like punk hairstyles or excessive tattoos. Certainly, the French public have the right to outlaw certain dress codes, just like women can't walk around in a bikini in Muslim countries, but the reasons for the ban need to be acknowledged forthright instead of hiding behind the false claims I mentioned above.


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## ephone

Pakistan is a muslim country and nothing we can do about it. However, in secular countries, we do support such ban. Take that ugly medieval thing off. 

Every time I see that, I feel really disgusted how such medieval thing still exists. 



Burnz said:


> The Chinese have no heart for the 40 Pakistanis killed by Burkha.
> 
> Two burqa-clad suicide bombers kill 41 in Pakistan blast - New York Daily News
> 
> Hypocrisy.
> 
> I hope Chinese support Burkha Ban in Pakistan.


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## ephone

I am labelled as Falun Gong again? Those idiots are the ones that I despise the most.

As for you, aren't you the idiot who bring IQ into discussion every time? 



below_freezing said:


> &#20804;&#24351;&#65292;&#20182;&#30830;&#23454;&#26159;&#21326;&#20154;&#65292;&#35980;&#20284;&#36824;&#22312;&#22269;&#20869;&#21463;&#36807;&#22823;&#23398;&#25945;&#32946;&#12290;&#24403;&#28982;&#65292;&#36825;&#24182;&#19981;&#25490;&#38500;&#20182;&#26159;&#27861;&#36718;&#21151;&#20043;&#27969;&#30340;&#21467;&#24466;&#12290;&#20182;&#30340;&#24456;&#22810;&#35328;&#34892;&#20030;&#27490;&#19982;&#31859;&#22269;&#26368;&#20445;&#23432;&#30340;&#21491;&#27966;&#30333;&#20154;&#26377;&#25152;&#30456;&#20284;&#65292;&#24182;&#19988;&#19982;&#19968;&#33324;&#30340;&#20013;&#22269;&#20154;&#26684;&#26684;&#19981;&#20837;&#12290;&#35828;&#23454;&#22312;&#30340;&#65292;&#20182;&#24456;&#21487;&#33021;&#26159;&#26089;&#24180;&#36212;&#31859;&#65292;&#32463;&#36807;&#20960;&#21313;&#24180;&#30340;&#23186;&#20307;&#20405;&#34432;&#34987;&#21326;&#23572;&#34903;&#25919;&#26435;&#27927;&#33041;&#30340;&#39321;&#34121;&#20154;&#12290;


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> Pakistan is a muslim country and nothing we can do about it. However, in secular countries, we do support such ban. Take that ugly medieval thing off.
> 
> Every time I see that, I feel really disgusted how such medieval thing still exists.


 
I feel sorry for u........ 


Dont post crap if u have nothin to say.........


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## ephone

iPakMan said:


> Yeah actually i saw a video of a muslim woman who did just that.


 
If they want to stand out wearing that day in and day out in normal situation, nothing stops them so far. Well, aren't they make themselves the idiots in public day light???


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## ephone

What kind of normal people dress like that medieval crap??? If you like that that much, why don't you dress like that all day? 

In secular countries, how many times will your kids be ridiculed if you ask your kids wearing that full facial covered clothes??? People will just think you are nuts.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I feel sorry for u........
> 
> 
> Dont post crap if u have nothin to say.........


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## ephone

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I feel sorry for u........
> 
> 
> Dont post crap if u have nothin to say.........


 
You should feel sorry for yourself and your country. Why can not Pakistani deal with those islam fundamentalists/terrorists and pay more attention to build your country???

It seems that praying to GOD day in and day out will make Pakistan great. 

When muslim countries become so increasingly intolerant towards those non-muslims, they cry a river when secular countries just ask them to obey the laws. Why don't you ask yourself whether your religion have handled the matter better and treated other people fairly???

In west, there are also similar religious stupid people who think the same way, as if praying to GOD will save the needs to go to hospital. However, there are just way too fewer such nuts. 

If you GOD is really that great, ask GOD not to send the flood/earthquake to torture you day in and day out. Ask GOD to cleanse your government. Ask GOD to help you manufacture and produce more products to make more money to pay off your debts. Ask GOD to make you a better person, not just day-dream to kick the butt of Indians or Jewish people. To be honest, I really do not see you have any chance to do that. 

If you are in the west, I think you just need get the heck out of there since you have so much hatred against the west. Do not use anything you get there. Do not use any technology products invented by the west and do not watch any TV/movies produced in the west. Throw away your cellphones as well. I know you like your medieval craps, right???

You should go back wherever you come from. After that, your comments may have some truth in that. Now you are just a real hypocrite.

Furthermore, shouldn't you cry a river to your GOD why GOD is so unfair to make your country, your people so poor and the west so powerful, so rich?

Even in rich muslim countries, the most money are at the hand several thousand of kings, princes and corrupted political officials? Why don't you ask your GOD about such unfairness?

Why don't your GOD come down to save you from this miserable world???


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> You should feel sorry for yourself and your country. Why can not Pakistani deal with those islam fundamentalists/terrorists and pay more attention to build your country???
> 
> It seems that praying to GOD day in and day out will make Pakistan great.
> 
> In west, there are also similar religious stupid people who think the same way, as if praying to GOD will save the needs to go to hospital. However, there are just way too fewer such nuts.
> 
> If you GOD is really that great, ask GOD not to send the flood/earthquake to torture you day in and day out. Ask GOD to cleanse your government. Ask GOD to help you manufacture and produce more products to make more money to pay off your debts. Ask GOD to make you a better person, not just day-dream to kick the butt of Indians or Jewish people. To be honest, I really do not see you have any chance to do that.
> 
> If you are in the west, I think you just need get the heck out of there since you have so much hatred against the west. Do not use anything you get there. Do not use any technology products invented by the west and do not watch any TV/movies produced in the west. Throw away your cellphones as well. I know you like your medieval craps, right???
> 
> You should go back wherever you come from. After that, your comments may have some truth in that. Now you are just a real hypocrite.
> 
> Furthermore, shouldn't you cry a river to your GOD why GOD is so unfair to make your country, your people so poor and the west so powerful, so rich?
> 
> Even in rich muslim countries, the most money are at the hand several thousand of kings, princes and corrupted political officials? Why don't you ask your GOD about such unfairness?
> 
> Why don't your GOD come down to save you from this miserable world???


 
Yeah we r evil ppl ..our God doesnt help us...... n we want to stay this way.


But ur no better thn a terrorist either...... U want to enforce ur narrow thinking just like them....... u dnt know anything abt tolerance or being polite.

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## huzihaidao12

I personally respect the customs of Muslims and other religions, as long as not to force others to accept, nothing is unacceptable.

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## ephone

It is better to help yourselves than delving into religious matter day in and day out. Haven't you ever wondered why muslim countries are so backward for such a long time even though it used to have glory time???

You blame west exploitations and invasions?

Well, China has been invaded many times and have suffered much more than you do. China today is on its way to the top. 

India has been invaded for a long time. Well India has developed greatly. 

Enforce narrow thinking? 

Well, what an excuse. When China stopped the brutal practice of foot-binding not that long ago, it is one of the great emancipations towards women. 

Getting rid of those medieval craps against women will be a starting point to emancipate women and get them equal rights they deserve. 

Well, you may say some muslim women still prefer that crap. True. When China government made it illegal to force women to have foot-binding. Some men jumped out saying that there were also some women who said they prefer foot-binding as well, since they say it was a cultural thing. 

60 years later, I won't be surprised if another nut comes out saying that she/he wants foot-binding to be back. There are fools everywhere and all the time. 

The reason China, west and those fast developing countries develop so fast is that we have way too fewer so fools in our countries.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yeah we r evil ppl ..our God doesnt help us...... n we want to stay this way.
> 
> 
> But ur no better thn a terrorist either...... U want to enforce ur narrow thinking just like them....... u dnt know anything abt tolerance or being polite.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> It is better to help yourselves than delving into religious matter day in and day out. Haven't you ever wondered why muslim countries are so backward for such a long time even though it used to have glory time???
> 
> You blame west exploitations and invasions?
> 
> Well, China has been invaded many times and have suffered much more than you do. China today is on its way to the top.
> 
> India has been invaded for a long time. Well India has developed greatly.
> 
> Enforce narrow thinking?
> 
> Well, what an excuse. When China stopped the brutal practice of foot-binding not that long ago, it is one of the great emancipations towards women.
> 
> Getting rid of those medieval craps against women will be a starting point to emancipate women and get them equal rights they deserve.
> 
> Well, you may say some muslim women still prefer that crap. True. When China government made it illegal to force women to have foot-binding. There were also some women who said they prefer foot-binding as well, since they say it was a cultural thing.


 
Many in my family wear hijab all of them with their own choice.......... Tell me how it is medieval? unlike footbinding it doesnt hurt u or break ur bones does it? While its all according to our religion.... then who the hell r u t rant abt it? r the muslims in france or usa forcing ur women to wear it?
NO..........Ur women r free to dress however they like...... wear a bikini or jeans...... we dnt care.


LIVE N LET LIVE......... No law gives u the right to abuse my freedom of lifestyle....... So remain in ur limits.........Otherwise u n the terrorists r no different...........both trying to push their own crap on others.

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## huzihaidao12

There are some criminal law, you can say the medieval brutality, but I do not think that a dress is a medieval brutality, even though I'm not used.

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## ephone

You still do not understand it. 

European countries are founded by Christian faith. Even though they are subtle on this issue with all of those human rights craps, the fundamental message is that they do not like that type of clothing and they view it a symbol of repressing women. 

You are an outsider and your religion is an outsider. French people are the first to tell you that they do not like that crap and they set up the law to ask you to take it off. You refuse? Then go to prison enjoying the life there.

I bet more western countries will follow that as well. Well, wearing it does not hurt me physically. However, it does hurt me by giving me much insecurity when I am around people with such crap. 

As I have stated clearly: you do not like it, get out of France and go home. Or see whether French cares when you never go there. 



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Many in my family wear hijab all of them with their own choice.......... Tell me how it is medieval? unlike footbinding it doesnt hurt u or break ur bones does it? While its all according to our religion.... then who the hell r u t rant abt it? r the muslims in france or usa forcing ur women to wear it?
> NO..........Ur women r free to dress however they like...... wear a bikini or jeans...... we dnt care.
> 
> 
> LIVE N LET LIVE......... No law gives u the right to abuse my freedom of lifestyle....... So remain in ur limits.........Otherwise u n the terrorists r no different...........both trying to push their own crap on others.


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## ephone

huzihaidao12 said:


> I personally respect the customs of Muslims and other religions, as long as not to force others to accept, nothing is unacceptable.


 
You think wearing that is all voluntarily based???


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> You think wearing that is all voluntarily based???


 
Do think its all forced? the protests in france r being done my men?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> You still do not understand it.
> 
> European countries are founded by Christian faith. Even though they are subtle on this issue with all of those human rights craps, the fundamental message is that they do not like that type of clothing and they view it a symbol of repressing women.
> 
> You are an outsider and your religion is an outsider. French people are the first to tell you that they do not like that crap and they set up the law to ask you to take it off. You refuse? Then go to prison enjoying the life there.
> 
> I bet more western countries will follow that as well. Well, wearing it does not hurt me physically. However, it does hurt me by giving me much insecurity when I am around people with such crap.
> 
> As I have stated clearly: you do not like it, get out of France and go home. Or see whether French cares when you never go there.


 
Those ppl have made france their home they r as french as u r american........... U ordering them wat to do is as big as an arab french guy telling u to get out of USA coz u wear chinese clothes or burn insense on ur sacred days.

Also tell me wat will u do if US govt asks ur sis or wife to wear a bikini? will u get out of USA or lodge a protest?

P.S=Dnt represent nobdy except urself.

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## huzihaidao12

ephone said:


> You think wearing that is all voluntarily based???


 
That by their decision, but not mandatory decision by the French, or French to enact legislation to protect the people freedom of choice, but not forced to use another law to replace.

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## ephone

Well, I believe a lot of them, not all, are being forced.

About those protests by women, well, let me give you example.

When communists took over China and make it illegal to be a prostitute and foot-binding, there were also many women protesting those as well. 

They also said why they could not do whatever they want to their own body???



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Do think its all forced? the protests in france r being done my men?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> Well, I believe a lot of them, not all, are being forced.
> 
> About those protests by women, well, let me give you example.
> 
> When communists took over China and make it illegal to be a prostitute and foot-binding, there were also many women protesting those as well.
> 
> They also said why they could not do whatever they want to their own body???


Retarded examples......... n now ur representing muslim women too...

Dnt talk abt stuff u dnt know abt.

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## ephone

when in Rome, do as the Romans do. 

Clearly many muslims have no intention to integrate into the host countries and have caused great distrust against them. Before crying a river about unfair, ask yourself what you have done to earn the trust of host countries.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Those ppl have made france their home they r as french as u r american........... U ordering them wat to do is as big as an arab french guy telling u to get out of USA coz u wear chinese clothes or burn insense on ur sacred days.
> 
> Also tell me wat will u do if US govt asks ur sis or wife to wear a bikini? will u get out of USA or lodge a protest?
> 
> P.S=Dnt represent nobdy except urself.


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## ephone

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Retarded examples......... n now ur representing muslim women too...
> 
> Dnt talk abt stuff u dnt know abt.


 
I have no interest to represent them, just show my sympathy towards them.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
> 
> Clearly many muslims have no intention to integrate into the host countries and have caused great distrust against them. Before crying a river about unfair, ask yourself what you have done to earn the trust of host countries.


 
Hatred has no cure.
God bless u.

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## Meengla

I don't think I agree with the 'when in Rome...' argument: It would make a dull,uni-dimensional world. Look at how the immigrants contribute toward their host countries' culture. The world is richer because of that.

Having said that, I must say that there are lines to be drawn. *There is no such thing as 'absolute freedom'. When we live in a society we, implicitly, agree to their social norms*. Just like the sight of women in skirt disgusts people in Saudi Arabia (sounds strange, doesn't it?) the burqah-clad women must grate on the nerves of so many in western countries. Especially if the burqah can be used to hide one's identity.


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## Hindustani

Good for France 

I heard somewhere that the turban won't be banned.. can anyone clarify that?


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## Meengla

Hindustani said:


> Good for France
> 
> I heard somewhere that the turban won't be banned.. can anyone clarify that?


 
Nor should turbans be banned. Similarly, hard scarves like they do in Iran or Turkey should not be banned either. Show your face. Don't hide your identity when required. You are okay. Let's be sensitive to the security and the local majority population's sensitivities and fears. That should apply world-wide. Remember: There is no absolute freedom. Adapt or live elsewhere. The world is too dangerous and too immature for some ideals.

I am suspicious of Sarkozy's motives behind this ban. I have heard that there are only about 2000 women in all of France who don the burqah. And that Sarkozy is eying some political gains by appeasing far-right in this country. If true then it is unfortunate.

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## Hindustani

Meengla said:


> *Nor should turbans be banned. Similarly, hard scarves like they do in Iran or Turkey should not be banned either. Show your face. Don't hide your identity when required. You are okay. Let's be sensitive to the security and the local majority population's sensitivities and fears. That should apply world-wide. Remember: There is no absolute freedom. Adapt or live elsewhere. The world is too dangerous and too immature for some ideals.*
> 
> I am suspicious of Sarkozy's motives behind this ban. I have heard that there are only about 2000 women in all of France who don the burqah. And that Sarkozy is eying some political gains by appeasing far-right in this country. If true then it is unfortunate.


 
Absolutely agree with the bolded it's all about _"identity"_ and security. And for the red part do you mean 2000 Muslim women?


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## Bilal Akhtar

france was the first country to repel incest laws... that explains much about their values..thankyou france...

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## Meengla

Hindustani said:


> Absolutely agree with the bolded it's all about _"identity"_ and security. And for the red part do you mean 2000 Muslim women?


 
Muslim. Yes, of course. I think I saw an article somewhere that implied a 'political connection' to the ban. Heck, it may be only 200 Muslim women in a population of Muslims approaching 10% or more in France. A real tiny number.

*But I want to get to an important point about this Forum and that in hope that the Moderators and Members would pay attention:*
I have read various arguments between @Ephone and others. It pains me to see that that guy is made to prove his nationality just because he differs from some majority opinion. I have been in the same boat a few times here. So I know. Yesterday, a particularly shallow and obnoxious Pakistani member called me a ' dear covert Indian'. If that attack had come from some mature members then I would have noticed. But this was just some kid. I ignored him. But in this topic there is a lot of back and forth between @Ephone and others about Chinese language to prove who is the real Chinese or otherwise. It was all too childish. I started skipping messages.
As I see it, most Indians would not like me for supporting Pakistan on Kashmir. I really believe in that cause. It is not just some 'Muslim' cause. I can start believing some Baluch cause if there is enough critical mass, for example. Also, I did not mind Christian E. Timor or South Sudan breaking away from respective Muslim countries. It was the will of the majority. Similarly, most Israelis would not like me supporting the Palestinians. They would automatically think, being a Pakistani, it is some 'Muslim' cause, even though support for Palestinians is found almost universally outside of America and Israel....

Who knows the depth of human nature, really? We can't really be sure of some other person. There are stereotypes--with some merits--but only to some extent.

Let's not put each other to prove our national loyalties. We can be rabid this or that but disproving one's nationality does not serve any purpose here.


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## Birruna

Turkey is not being allowed to be part of the EU. It is very obvious that EU members will fight tooth and nail to keep their christian identity intact. They are without doubt threatened by minarets and burqa. I can't see any other way around this problem. The european muslims must find a way to blend without losing their islamic identity. The first significant step in this direction could be to accept the burqa ban. Also in my view in a capitalistic society to advance the economic well being of the muslim family and community as a whole voluntaily efforts must be made to remove impediments that prevent participation of women in the workforce.


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## fallstuff

Meengla said:


> Muslim. Yes, of course. I think I saw an article somewhere that implied a 'political connection' to the ban. Heck, it may be only 200 Muslim women in a population of Muslims approaching 10% or more in France. A real tiny number.
> 
> *But I want to get to an important point about this Forum and that in hope that the Moderators and Members would pay attention:*
> I have read various arguments between @Ephone and others. It pains me to see that that guy is made to prove his nationality just because he differs from some majority opinion. I have been in the same boat a few times here. So I know. Yesterday, a particularly shallow and obnoxious Pakistani member called me a ' dear covert Indian'. If that attack had come from some mature members then I would have noticed. But this was just some kid. I ignored him. But in this topic there is a lot of back and forth between @Ephone and others about Chinese language to prove who is the real Chinese or otherwise. It was all too childish. I started skipping messages.
> As I see it, most Indians would not like me for supporting Pakistan on Kashmir. I really believe in that cause. It is not just some 'Muslim' cause. I can start believing some Baluch cause if there is enough critical mass, for example. Also, I did not mind Christian E. Timor or South Sudan breaking away from respective Muslim countries. It was the will of the majority. Similarly, most Israelis would not like me supporting the Palestinians. They would automatically think, being a Pakistani, it is some 'Muslim' cause, even though support for Palestinians is found almost universally outside of America and Israel....
> 
> Who knows the depth of human nature, really? We can't really be sure of some other person. There are stereotypes--with some merits--but only to some extent.
> 
> Let's not put each other to prove our national loyalties. We can be rabid this or that but disproving one's nationality does not serve any purpose here.


 
I respectfully disagree. In this international forum members are duly pointing the finger at someone who is not being consistent at all. His flags are changing like a chameleon, he has an intense hate for the Muslim folks inconsistent with the other Chinese members, his refusal to accept the fact that even French police are stating there are like 350 women in all France wear Burqa, and most of them do it on their own, a behavior commonly seen in the converts. 

Lets take a look at some of his masterpieces,



> with shallow minds muslim worlds current have, your dream back to glory is really impossible.





> Your ancestors forced hundreds of millions people to convert to islam with knives





> when in Rome, do as the Romans do.



You are telling me you can't smell the cur*y in those posts ? 

Anyway dude, I respect your opinion, but the verdict on the cur*y stays !!!

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## Majnun

Can someone give the exact law?


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## ephone

fallstuff said:


> I respectfully disagree. In this international forum members are duly pointing the finger at someone who is not being consistent at all. His flags are changing like a chameleon. he has an intense hate for the Muslim folks inconsistent with the other Chinese members, his refusal to accept the fact that even French police are stating there are like 350 women in all France wear Burqa, and most of them do it on their own. A behavior commonly seen in the converts.
> 
> Lets take a look at some of his masterpieces,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are telling me you can't smell the cur*y in those posts ?
> 
> Anyway dude, I respect your opinion, but the verdict on the cur*y stays !!!


 
I stick to what I write here. They are the truth. The current islam is really way too much intolerant towards other religions.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Meengla said:


> Nor should turbans be banned. Similarly, hard scarves like they do in Iran or Turkey should not be banned either. Show your face. Don't hide your identity when required. You are okay. Let's be sensitive to the security and the local majority population's sensitivities and fears. That should apply world-wide. Remember: There is no absolute freedom. Adapt or live elsewhere. The world is too dangerous and too immature for some ideals.
> 
> I am suspicious of Sarkozy's motives behind this ban. I have heard that there are only about 2000 women in all of France who don the burqah. And that Sarkozy is eying some political gains by appeasing far-right in this country. If true then it is unfortunate.


 

mehhh, that's politics for ya.........no new news


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ephone said:


> I stick to what I write here. They are the truth. The current islam is really way too much intolerant towards other religions.


 
perhaps you are mistaking individual interpretation with the religion itself. If you are a fact-finder, consider picking up a Quran and reading it. 

it's available in over 123 languages

dont take my word for it...just read it.


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## Kaniska

I agree with your analysis...becoz French gov have every right to ban based on the sentiment of their people...but they should be honest in their intent rather than telling to the whole world that becoz of security they are banning the burqa..


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## huzihaidao12

My attitude has always been the case, no one is qualified to conclusions about Islam, and also forced too tight. In addition to requirements of mutual respect and tolerance, the best Muslims handle their own problems . China also has the Boxer Rebellion a hundred years ago, Now what. Moreover, the Muslim extremist movement has an important reason for the West's aggression, so you can not say that there are internal reasons, there is also an external reason. This is the same and the Boxer Rebellion. Muslim countries have some problems in the modern Fusion, but to see the chaos of the world, clothing is just a trivial matter, as long as they like, I do not mind.

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## Roybot

fallstuff said:


> You are telling me you can't smell the cur*y in those posts ?
> 
> Anyway dude, I respect your opinion, but the verdict on the cur*y stays !!!


 
Why do all the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis here pretend that they don't eat curry

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## Mech

roy_gourav said:


> Why do all the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis here pretend that they don't eat curry


 
 i know right! Such hypocrites......anyway, i love curry


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## Abu Zolfiqar

we do too...but we have different dietary intake needs; herbs and veggies alone just dont cut it


to get back on topic -- in the end, the underlying point is the same. Their laws, their rules.....cant do much to change em. I'm not sure how much pull PDF forum will have on French parliament sessions.


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## EjazR

A good article on the Niqab debate

*The Niqab ban: A Study in Stupidity*





On the eleventh of April, it became illegal to veil one&#8217;s face in public in France.

This is something that seems to have made a lot of people happy, and they defend their being happy quite vigorously.

The arguments, if one can call them so, run along three fairly broad and predictable lines:

First, that the burqa, in whatever form (hijab, niqab) is against &#8220;French/European culture&#8221; and said culture has to be protected from it

Secondly, that the burqa is, by its very nature, oppressive to women; and

Thirdly, that the burqa is a security hazard.

Each and every one of these arguments is hollow and self-serving.

Let&#8217;s take the first argument first.

Now, I&#8217;m not denying that to people who aren&#8217;t exactly used to seeing masked faces, the sight of a woman in a veil may be momentarily unsettling. But that&#8217;s all she is&#8230;a woman in a veil. If a woman in a veil is a threat to one&#8217;s culture, I submit that said culture has problems far greater than can be cured by merely banning the veil.

Besides, while culture is of course a plastic item and changes, albeit usually rather slowly, over time, exactly how great is the threat to French culture from the niqab? Actually, we don&#8217;t have to resort to guesswork. France has roughly three million Muslim women. The French police did a survey to check how many wore the niqab. The answer? 367.[1]

Now you tell me what kind of culture is at threat from a miserable three hundred and sixty seven veiled women? And in Belgium, which is also planning to ban the veil, there are half a million Muslim women, of whom a humongous two dozen wear the veil [2]. Amazing.

I think, for the moment, we can put the culture issue aside as a shoddy excuse.

The second argument is the idea that being made to wear a veil is &#8220;oppressive&#8221; to women.

On the face of it this might seem a seductive notion, and it is&#8230;so long as you don&#8217;t ask those veiled women what they think of it. If you do, the reactions might be surprising.

This is what Kenza Drider, a French Muslim woman who wears the niqab and is determined to violate the ban, has to say [3]:

&#8220;This whole law makes France look ridiculous&#8230;I never thought I&#8217;d see the day when France, my France, the country I was born in and I love, the country of liberté, égalité, fraternité, would do something that so obviously violates people&#8217;s freedom.

&#8220;I&#8217;ll be getting on with my life and if they want to send me to prison for wearing the niqab then so be it. One thing&#8217;s for sure: I&#8217;m not taking it off.&#8221;

So here we have an &#8220;oppressed&#8221; woman prepared to go to prison rather than remove the symbol of her alleged oppression.

In fact, worldwide, the burqa or niqab can be seen to be an empowering garment rather than an oppressive one.

How so? In order to answer that, we must ask first this question:

Who, precisely, are the people who wear burqas, hijabs or niqabs? Aren&#8217;t they fundamentalist Muslims? They are.

Now, the burqa or other veil is actually not required wearing in Islam. It&#8217;s more a cultural thing, and it&#8217;s mostly a coincidence that those cultures which traditionally veiled their women also tend to have the more fundamentalist interpretations of the Islamic faith. But the fact remains that the veil is worn by women, primarily, in cultures where they have to wear it in public if they go out at all. Tradition, reinforced by their menfolk, ensure that they keep the veil.

Often, in fact, the veil is just a temporary garment, for wearing in public. Women in many countries will dress to kill, put on the burqa over their hip-hugging jeans and low-neck tops, and go to all-woman malls and discos, where they will dump the veil in the check-in and turn into birds of paradise for the night. You&#8217;d call that oppression?

For many women it&#8217;s much more of a necessity. I myself knew a dentist in Calcutta who worked in her clinic in the regulation white coat, latex gloves and face mask. But when her clinic hours were over, she would put on a burqa for the trip home. And this was a well-educated professional. There are many more who do the same, whose lives outside the home take place within the folds of a burqa.

Now, suppose you ban the burqa. Will those veiled women suddenly gain the freedom to go out without their enveloping garments? Of course they won&#8217;t. Instead, they will find themselves confined within the four walls of their home, prisoners of their inability to put on the veil that set them free.

Pretty strange way of enforcing female emancipation if you ask me!

Then, the third excuse is the &#8220;security&#8221; one. In these days of Islamophobia and terrorism-mongering, this strikes a raw nerve. In fact it&#8217;s so clearly designed to strike a raw nerve that you know right away that it&#8217;s a fake argument.

Let&#8217;s think about a veiled woman in the street. Sure, she could be hiding a bomb under her niqab&#8217;s folds. Hell, if it&#8217;s winter, any guy or gal in a heavy jacket could be hiding a bomb under said jacket. Do you ban jackets?

Then, in a world where Al Qaeda has already produced and used intestine bombs [4], a burqa-clad suicide bomber would be rather&#8230;obvious, no?

But let&#8217;s not even go to all that. A burqa-clad woman stands out in a crowd, instantly. If you are in a situation where you need to check her identity, just ask a policewoman to do it. It&#8217;s a system used in India, for example, where a large number (yet very, very far from a majority, let alone all) of Muslim women are veiled, and so far it&#8217;s worked more or less perfectly.

In North India, a lot of Muslim women,who are otherwise poor, semi/illiterate,and from fundamentalist families,wear the veil. They go shopping,work,even drive,wearing it. I&#8217;ve treated veiled Muslim women many times. You ban the veil,and what happens to them? Answer-they&#8217;re, instantly, disempowered.

The irony is that the nations banning the veil have almost no veiled people,while nations full of veiled women don&#8217;t seem to have any problems with them. You&#8217;d think India might have more problems than France with the veil,wouldn&#8217;t you, assuming of course that said problems exist?

Right.

But of course all this veil-banning has nothing whatsoever to do with any of the three &#8220;arguments&#8221; advanced. It has everything to do with scoring cheap political points in an environment where Muslim-bashing is an easy way to popularity, so long as you don&#8217;t openly call it Muslim-bashing. The fear of Muslims has seeped so thoroughly into modern Europe (replacing the fear of Jews) that anything that targets them will get electoral support, no matter how ridiculous it is.

And of course this veil-banning is counterproductive. Leave the veil alone, and it&#8217;s fairly certain that the children of the veil-wearing generation will abandon it for what their friends and colleagues are wearing, or their children will. But ban the veil, and wearing it becomes an instant act of defiance, a badge of resistance against cultural diktat. I&#8217;d be very surprised if non-niqab-wearing Muslim women in France don&#8217;t now start wearing it as a mark of protest.

And since populism and tokenism aren&#8217;t the prerogative of any one party, the Islamic Right will (in case it hasn&#8217;t already done so) instantly leap on the ban as yet another proof of the evilness of the Crusader West, and use it as a tool to further raise anti-Western hatred. It suits their agenda perfectly.

In fact this kind of thing (like Switzerland&#8217;s banning of mosque minarets, another ludicrous bit of stupidity) is so tailored towards cleaving societies asunder that I&#8217;d be astonished if those responsible weren&#8217;t doing it deliberately.

Clashes of civilisations can be created in inventive ways.

Sources:

[1] French Parliament to Investigate a Possible Ban on the Burqa and Niqab - NYTimes.com

[2] BBC News - Belgian committee votes for full Islamic veil ban

[3] Why I will defy France's 'burqa law' | World news | The Observer

[4] http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/sout&#8230;.1002 56280.html

Further reading:

The French Ban on Niqab and Burqas: An Exercise in Empathy - Technorati Politics

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## Bhim

roy_gourav said:


> Why do all the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis here pretend that they don't eat curry



Forum pe ye Angrez bane hui hai..

Ye to kacha ghost khate hai,

Koi identity to hai nahi in becharo ki, kabhi kuch to kabhi kuch...

Atleast India has made curry international dish.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

you log in to a Pakistani defence forum then talk about Pakistani's identity. 

who sounds more insecure?


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## AstanoshKhan

A rich Muslim man in France -Rachid Nekkaz- has put aside 1 million Euros and has vowed publically to use it to pay the fines for all those Muslim women in France who choose to hold on their burkas and niqaabs.

Rich Muslim vows to pay all French burka fines | News & Politics | News & Comment | The First Post

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## Abu Zolfiqar

A+ for effort and dedication 

why not spend it for a social program or pay for the tuition of some poors

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## aristocrat

Germany is already having problems with multiculturalism.
I think this is a move to dissuade immigrants from coming to France.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

well we saw what happened to those Roma people........

nationalism is rising again in the EU, and not always the "good nationalism" when you have right-wingers doing what they can to win some votes

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## ChineseTiger1986

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well we saw what happened to those Roma people........
> 
> nationalism is rising again in the EU, and not always the "good nationalism" when you have right-wingers doing what they can to win some votes


 
Blame other is easy, but looking at themselves is hard.


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## monitor

*Who&#8217;s afraid of the veil?*
Posted on April 15, 2011 by
By AIJAZ ZAKA SYED

A COLUMNIST should never tackle the same topic two weeks in a row, advice masters of the trade. So forgive me for ignoring this counsel and barging in headlong where we have been before &#8212; ad nauseam. But I couldn&#8217;t help myself when I came across this posting on Arab News online.


Taking part in the raging debate over the ban on the Muslim veil that came into force in Nicolas Sarkozy&#8217;s France this week, a reader who identifies herself as &#8220;a Muslimah&#8221; writes: &#8220;Time and time again in &#8216;free, democratic&#8217; societies women are manipulated and taught to believe that their freedom is directly linked to the removal of their clothing. Such emphasis has never been placed on men though. It&#8217;s the removal of women&#8217;s clothing and NOT the choice to wear whatever they like that &#8212; women are brainwashed into believing &#8212; preserves their freedom as is evident from this (French) ban on veil.&#8221;

Her whole post deserves to be read by everyone and widely shared. But I have to round it off with her closing lines: &#8220;Yet those supporting the ban would have us believe Muslim women are the ones who are manipulated and suppressed. But it&#8217;s hardly surprising to see free societies ban women from covering their bodies. These are the nations in which women are used daily as mere commodities for buying and selling. The lands of the living Barbie dolls, where the daily objectification of women and young girls as sexual playthings has reached the mainstream. The female physique has become public property. Women must be on public display at all times.&#8221;

Need I add more? I am yet to come across a more fitting and right on-the-nose take on the issue. Perhaps only a Muslim woman could have spotlighted the absurdity and rank hypocrisy of this whole circus in the continent that takes pride on its image as the land of freedom and civil liberties.

In the land of Magna Carta, no eyebrows are raised if you go around in your birthday suit, go French kissing or get intimate in public. In fact, such actions only prove your liberal ethos and qualification to be part of Western societies. But you are a grave threat to peace and stability of the state the moment you cover your face. How ridiculous can you get?

Do the Europeans even realize the absurdity of their actions? Did President Sarkozy watch the scenes of French cops rounding and rouging up veiled women in nationwide crackdown even as head-to-toe fully clothed Christian nuns watched? This is why I believe this debate has more to do with politics, rather than religion.

This is not about individual freedoms, religious tolerance or Islam&#8217;s incompatibility with France or Europe. There are two issues at the heart of this conflict. First is old-fashioned politics. Even as Europe&#8217;s politicians, from Belgium to France and from Switzerland to Denmark, trumpet their liberal values and secular democratic credentials, they tap into the deep seated insecurities and paranoia of their Caucasian and Christian European populace for swift electoral gains or power.

So Sarkozy, hoping of re-election, not just comes up with this weird idea of banning the veil and punishing those refusing to take off the piece of cloth that is part of their religious beliefs, he presides over a national debate as to why Muslims cannot be part of the liberal and democratic French society.

His Interior Minister Claude Guéant, under fire for terming French campaign against Libya&#8217;s Qaddafi a new crusade, has gone to the extent of saying the problem is with &#8220;the growing numbers of Muslim population.&#8221;

In the Alpine paradise of Switzerland they have outlawed mosque minarets because they do not blend in a European skyline.

In Denmark, Holland and other Scandinavian countries, they have found another way of rejecting the Muslims &#8212; by targeting their sacred icons and beliefs, from caricaturing the Prophet (peace be upon him) to attacking the Qur&#8217;an in films and art.

Paradoxically, all this is done in the name of Europe&#8217;s liberal ethos and tolerance. So even as they pontificate to us about an individual&#8217;s freedom to say and do what he or she wants, they are targeting the very same freedom by forcing Muslim woman to take off the veil.

The second &#8211; and real &#8212; issue at the heart of this conflict is the white, predominantly Christian West&#8217;s deepening fear psychosis about Islam and the Muslims eventually running over and taking over the West and annihilating their entire civilization. Looked at it from their perspective, you would understand their insecurity and growing paranoia.

ON the one hand, their numbers are diminishing and not just in Europe. The continent that ruled the world for nearly four centuries is shrinking and aging fast. It is yet to recover from the destruction and depletion of its numbers during the World War I and II. To maintain its ascendancy, it needs a young population and lots of it. It&#8217;s precisely for this reason it has had to willy-nilly take in the growing numbers of immigrants from around the world, especially from those lands that it not long ago ruled. The new arrivals are heading to the West not merely because it offers greater economic opportunities and freedom, many of them are victims of the long years of colonization of Asia and Africa by European powers.

On the other hand, notwithstanding these compulsions, the West finds it difficult to reconcile itself to the reality of its changing demographic profile and what it sees as a cultural and intellectual invasion, especially from Islam and Muslims.

European pundits have long talked about Europe turning into Eurabia and London into Londonistan. While in the past few decades millions from Arab and Muslim lands have migrated to the West in search of a better life, Muslim ranks in the West have been expanding also because more and more white Europeans and Americans are turning to Islam for guidance and inspiration.

With excessive materialism and moral decay destroying family unit and society as a whole, more and more people are finding spiritual solace in Islam. So if the religion is the fastest growing in the world today despite a relentless global crusade against its followers, you know where to look for answers.

We need to look at this wave of Islamophobia, from burning the Qur&#8217;an to banning the veil, from this perspective. More important, Muslims must desist from responding to these bouts of bigotry with bigotry. Hatred cannot fight hatred. Only love and understanding can. As the Qur&#8217;an suggests, when faced with adversity, we must fight it with something that is better.

The current wave of Islamophobia is largely fueled by ignorance, myths and insecurities. You can counter it by promoting knowledge and true understanding of the faith that came not just for the Arabs but whole of mankind. Not an easy task by any means. We have no other choice though.

&#8212; Aijaz Zaka Syed is a widely published columnist based in the Gulf.

Write to him at aijaz.syed@hotmail.com
Courtesy: Arab News

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## Roybot

AstanoshKhan said:


> A rich Muslim man in France -Rachid Nekkaz- has put aside 1 million Euros and has vowed publically to use it to pay the fines for all those Muslim women in France who choose to hold on their burkas and niqaabs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rich Muslim vows to pay all French burka fines | News & Politics | News & Comment | The First Post



Stupid move in my opinion, next thing you know they ll make stricter punishments for repeat offenders.

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## monitor

its clear violation of religious freedom and human rights will erase europe image of tolarence


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## NWO

roy_gourav said:


> Stupid move in my opinion, next thing you know they ll make stricter punishments for repeat offenders.


 
If you believed you were fighting for freedom, would a few euros make that much of a difference?


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## Roybot

NWO said:


> If you believed you were fighting for freedom, would a few euros make that much of a difference?


 
Its not about money, I mean if this French government is willing to take on the whole Muslim world and the leftists, by bringing in this law, you think they won't introduce stricter punishments (other than fines) once they see repeat offenders?


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## AstanoshKhan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> A+ for effort and dedication
> 
> why not spend it for a social program or pay for the tuition of some poors



Oh come on Abu, France has put a ban on full-face veil and I support that, as it's their country and they've every right to force the laws - now in this case, it is his money and we should have no concern about it either.



roy_gourav said:


> Stupid move in my opinion, next thing you know they ll make stricter punishments for repeat offenders.



The guys name doesn't look like a Muslim one and that very likely might be the case of some right wing party etc wants to put a start to as what you suggested - punishments for repeat offenders.

Seriously, most of the Muslims living in europe or elsewhere are immigrants - if they can't follow their laws, they should move to an Islamic country. They love the world of Materialism but yet they wants to appease Allah SWT. So much to say for this hypocrisy and confusion.

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## Developereo

ephone said:


> It is about showing your face. If the other two also cover people faces in normal situation, the should be banned as well.



When they ban face masks and helmets in public, then the law will be equal. Until then it is discriminatory.



Meengla said:


> Show your face. Don't hide your identity when required. You are okay. Let's be sensitive to the security and the local majority population's sensitivities and fears.



Already debunked. It is not, and never has been, about security. It is simply because the French find the burqa 'offensive'.

As for your 'show your face' argument, why isn't France banning face masks in public?


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## below_freezing

Another irresponsible, racist attack by whites against the culture of others.

That said, we have no right to criticize. Europe is the home of the whites. They can keep it as racist as they want. But in that case, they should be treated as rogue states the same way South Africa was.


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## Raja.Pakistani

AstanoshKhan said:


> Seriously, most of the Muslims living in europe or elsewhere are immigrants - if they can't follow their laws, they should move to an Islamic country. They love the world of Materialism but yet they wants to appease Allah SWT. So much to say for this hypocrisy and confusion.


Seriously you need to grow up if you think that peoples wo are living in western countries for study, visit and work should give up their identity or right to practice their beliefs for sake of staying there. They moved or setteled there after knowing that they will get these basic rights there. This ban is against their laws as many non muslims french are also against this ban

but i feel pity for you guys who consider it duty to impose your personal like or dislike on others.


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## ephone

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> perhaps you are mistaking individual interpretation with the religion itself. If you are a fact-finder, consider picking up a Quran and reading it.
> 
> it's available in over 123 languages
> 
> dont take my word for it...just read it.


 
In current world, the book of Quran won't do any harm to anyone. However, the enforcers of Quran are the ones who either benefit or harm people. 

GOD, no matter derived from which religions, will not harm or benefit people directly. Those who worship him, believe him, interpret him, actually carry on the action. 

The current stage of islam culture is way too much intolerant. The main problem is that the Quran readers/worshipers take violent actions in many cases while other religions won't do. 

Maybe you should let your own religion believers to go back to read Quran again and see what is the real message of your GOD. Has your GOD instruct his believers to kill whoever burn the book of Quran?


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## ephone

Then the French government should increase the fine so as to bankrupt that guy or whoever try to follow.

Such fanfare clearly demonstrates his male dominating ego within the religion. 



AstanoshKhan said:


> A rich Muslim man in France -Rachid Nekkaz- has put aside 1 million Euros and has vowed publically to use it to pay the fines for all those Muslim women in France who choose to hold on their burkas and niqaabs.
> 
> Rich Muslim vows to pay all French burka fines | News & Politics | News & Comment | The First Post


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## Abu Zolfiqar

no; maybe you should just word your response differently. Every religious group has bad apples. Islam may have some adherents who are intolerant. Kind of like there are intolerant Jews, Christians, hindu, etc. 

you seem fixated on Islam so im not sure if u have agenda or whether you are being genuine....not that it affects me at all


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## ephone

It should be.

At the same time, why won't muslims in French or other European countries try harder to integrate into their host countries???



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> A+ for effort and dedication
> 
> why not spend it for a social program or pay for the tuition of some poors


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## ephone

Well, maybe you should look at your religion first about that "tolerance issue".



monitor said:


> its clear violation of religious freedom and human rights will erase europe image of tolarence


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## ephone

True. Every religion has bad apples. 

However, it seems that there are way too much intolerance in islam now since there are way too many "bad apples" thugs who are excited day in and day out to carry out those violent actions. 

I have no agenda to whatever religions you may know of. I am just offering my opinions as an outsider. 

Well, if you cannot take my criticism, that is fine. I just hope you will not label me as anti-islam or islamophobia. 

The true nature of islam, I do not know. I can only infer from the actions of the islam followers, the muslims. However, from the action of islam believers, I can say that they are way too much violent.

It may be due to the fact that (1) they have interpreted Quran Wrongly or (2) the nature of the religion is just that intolerant. 

I would rather believe the true answer is the (1). 

I would rather see the influential figures of islam all over the world stand out issuing their opinions on various of incidents happened in the past 30 years and reach certain consensus or directive what muslims should follow. 

Muslim world need a leader and they need make their message loud and clear so as to remove any doubts or suspicion from outside world. The more ambiguous your leaders are, e.g. related to 9/11, invasion of Iraq, attack on Libya and etc, the more suspicion outsiders will have. You may end up with more and more anti-islam laws and activities.

In addition, you may look inside your religion and think hard, whether you are really mis-understood by outsiders or you have not tried harder enough to integrate into the local culture and local countries.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> no; maybe you should just word your response differently. Every religious group has bad apples. Islam may have some adherents who are intolerant. Kind of like there are intolerant Jews, Christians, hindu, etc.
> 
> you seem fixated on Islam so im not sure if u have agenda or whether you are being genuine....not that it affects me at all


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## Tiki Tam Tam

In this maze of post, I could not make out what exactly the French has done that is causing uncomfortable times.

As I understand by the thread's title, it is the full face veil i.e. total cover with only the eyes visible/ or covered by net, that they have banned.

Have they banned the head scarf also?

I think fashionable western women also wear a scarf around their head.

East European peasant women also wear scarf around the head.


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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> It should be.
> 
> At the same time, why won't muslims in French or other European countries try harder to integrate into their host countries???


 
You are still moaning in this topic. Why we should integrate. Why we cannot keep our values and culture alive in multicultural society


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## ephone

You go there as guest and tell the host you can do whatever you want???

The host clearly tells you now: he does not like it and you can either abide by or go home. 



Raja.Pakistani said:


> You are still moaning in this topic. Why we should integrate. Why we cannot keep our values and culture alive in multicultural society


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Raja.Pakistani said:


> You are still moaning in this topic. Why we should integrate. Why we cannot keep our values and culture alive in multicultural society


 
One should not.

However, the same courtesy has to be reciprocated.

Say, in Saudi Arabia.


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## Majnun

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> One should not.
> 
> However, the same courtesy has to be reciprocated.
> 
> Say, in Saudi Arabia.


 


So you are making Muslims in France responsible for Saudi Arabia's decisions? Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with the ban in France. This comment reveals your mindset and inherent racism.


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## Majnun

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> One should not.
> 
> However, the same courtesy has to be reciprocated.
> 
> Say, in Saudi Arabia.


 


Why should Saudi Arabia be responsible for the state of French Muslims and why should French Muslims be responsible for Saudi Arabia's laws?


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## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> You go there as guest and tell the host you can do whatever you want???
> 
> The host clearly tells you now: he does not like it and you can either abide by or go home.


 
I am living in englad from last 7 years and i kept my values alive so no problem for me. I can keep fasting, prayers, can wear any dress i like thatswhy i am still living here


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## Raja.Pakistani

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> One should not.
> 
> However, the same courtesy has to be reciprocated.
> 
> Say, in Saudi Arabia.


 sure remember when english were in sub continent they kept their western culture alive and did not integrate in local culture. 
Sorry saudia is not secular country so we cannot compare unless french claim to be a religous/christian state


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Majnun said:


> Why should Saudi Arabia be responsible for the state of French Muslims and why should French Muslims be responsible for Saudi Arabia's laws?



The issue is of keeping values and practices in foreign lands.

In England, it is liberal and all can do so.

France has imposed their form of secularism and that is not liked by the Muslims.

The point is that if one is to be allowed to maintain one's values and culture and practice in foreign lands, then to be allowed to do so, there should be reciprocity.

Islamic Nation like Saudi Arabia, insists that all foreigners will have to follow their religious and state codes. They also do not allow non Muslims (that too very selectively) to become citizens of Saudi Arabia.

If that is so, what is this brouhaha over France's action {which in anyway I do not support). In all fairness, they can impose their ways as Saudi Arabia imposes their ways on foreigners. And what is more they allow others to become citizens, while Saudi Arabia does not!


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Raja.Pakistani said:


> sure remember when english were in sub continent they kept their western culture alive and did not integrate in local culture.
> Sorry saudia is not secular country so we cannot compare unless french claim to be a religous/christian state



One cannot have one's cake and eat it too.

It is a Muslim country and so the sins of the father has to descend on his children!

Ever since 9/11, sadly, the West is looking at everything to be emanating from the powerful urge for the ummah and the Caliphate.

Just notice that even liberal Britain is putting the noose tight on visas to the subcontinent!


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## ephone

Seven years, still englad???

That is normal behaviors and any countries have no problems about that.

However, imams preaching terrorisms in mosques, forcing children into religious study instead of regular schools or separate them from interactions with regular local children in schools, having religious belief above the laws of host countries, intimidation or threat of violence against apostates, inter-racial relationships and etc 

All of them are examples that they have no intention to integrate into local cultures. 



Raja.Pakistani said:


> I am living in englad from last 7 years and i kept my values alive so no problem for me. I can keep fasting, prayers, can wear any dress i like thatswhy i am still living here


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## fawwaxs




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## Tiki Tam Tam

I find nothing wrong to keep one's values, tradition, culture etc when in foreign lands.

However, one should be sensitive to the host country's culture, traditions and values too!

One should not flaunt and thrust one's way of life like a red rag into the face of the host country chaps, unless one is asking for trouble.

And if one feels that one cannot accommodate the host country's ways, then one should not even go there and if one has gone, one should return.

To be frank, one leaves his country for economic gains i.e. personal interests. Therefore, if one does not find one's own country capable of giving one what one wants, then one should go with all humility and stay there with grace and not raise a hornet's nest and bring hatred for his countrymen as a mass, who have not even gone to those lands because they know that they would not be really welcomed in a true friendly fashion.


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## Majnun

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> The issue is of keeping values and practices in foreign lands.
> 
> In England, it is liberal and all can do so.
> 
> France has imposed their form of secularism and that is not liked by the Muslims.
> 
> The point is that if one is to be allowed to maintain one's values and culture and practice in foreign lands, then to be allowed to do so, there should be reciprocity.
> 
> Islamic Nation like Saudi Arabia, insists that all foreigners will have to follow their religious and state codes. They also do not allow non Muslims (that too very selectively) to become citizens of Saudi Arabia.
> 
> If that is so, what is this brouhaha over France's action {which in anyway I do not support). In all fairness, they can impose their ways as Saudi Arabia imposes their ways on foreigners. And what is more they allow others to become citizens, while Saudi Arabia does not!


 


The question is why should Saudi Arabia reciprocate for French Muslims? What connection does Saudi Arabia have with French Muslims that obligates them to reciprocate for French Muslims?


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## Majnun

fawwaxs said:


>


 


I wish this lady on the right would wear niqab, if you look like her it should be obligatory to wear a veil. And some sort of muzzle as well.

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## Majnun

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> I find nothing wrong to keep one's values, tradition, culture etc when in foreign lands.
> 
> However, one should be sensitive to the host country's culture, traditions and values too!
> 
> One should not flaunt and thrust one's way of life like a red rag into the face of the host country chaps, unless one is asking for trouble.
> 
> And if one feels that one cannot accommodate the host country's ways, then one should not even go there and if one has gone, one should return.
> 
> To be frank, one leaves his country for economic gains i.e. personal interests. Therefore, if one does not find one's own country capable of giving one what one wants, then one should go with all humility and stay there with grace and not raise a hornet's nest and bring hatred for his countrymen as a mass, who have not even gone to those lands because they know that they would not be really welcomed in a true friendly fashion.


 


With this post I agree completely (and Sikh's turbans should be banned as well). One shouldn't flaunt their different culture in public in foreign lands, they are simply provoking people.


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## ephone

Majnun said:


> I wish this lady on the right would wear niqab, if you look like her it should be obligatory to wear a veil. And some sort of muzzle as well.



The lady on the right shows her full face and I think it is perfectly fine. 

On the contrary, the left one looks like a real weirdo.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

It does not matter how many brownie points one wins in a debate.

What matters is the bottom line - the govt rules that govern the issue as also, the hatred and danger that lurks from the distaste of the lumpen lot of the host country's population!

---------- Post added at 01:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 AM ----------




Majnun said:


> With this post I agree completely (and Sikh's turbans should be banned as well). One shouldn't flaunt their different culture in public in foreign lands, they are simply provoking people.



I presume it does not cover full face and so it is allowed.

As I said, is the scarf banned? Scarves show the full face.

However, what one should note is that since a foreigner, especially in the US, cannot differentiate a Muslim for a Sikh because of the beard, Sikhs are getting killed in the US!!


----------



## Capt.Popeye

Majnun said:


> I wish this lady on the right would wear niqab, if you look like her it should be obligatory to wear a veil. And some sort of muzzle as well.


 
Are you accustomed to seeing women wearing niqabs and muzzles around you ?
Sounds really weird.


----------



## Majnun

Capt.Popeye said:


> Are you accustomed to seeing women wearing niqabs and muzzles around you ?
> Sounds really weird.


 


I am not accustomed to seeing women looking like that. She isn't exactly Miss World is she? I think it would be better for everyone if she wore the face veil.


----------



## Capt.Popeye

Majnun said:


> I am not accustomed to seeing women looking like that. She isn't exactly Miss World is she? I think it would be better for everyone if she wore the face veil.


 
That should be her choice is'nt it?
While on this thread; you are screaming about the choice of a woman to wear a hijab.
And the bit about the *muzzle*, BTW; was both extremely absurd and in very poor taste.
Am pretty sure that every woman in your surroundings does not look like "Miss World". But that will not justify my wanting to put anything on them.


----------



## Majnun

Capt.Popeye said:


> That should be her choice is'nt it?
> While on this thread; you are screaming about the choice of a woman to wear a hijab.
> And the bit about the *muzzle*, BTW; was both extremely absurd and in very poor taste.
> Am pretty sure that every woman in your surroundings does not look like "Miss World". But that will not justify my wanting to put anything on them.


 


For God's sake, try to understand. That was a non-serious comment. There is no need to try and dissect it. Stop acting like a nutcase.

And I haven't been screaming anything, you clearly haven't been reading this thread because you have been too busy trying to group and attack all Muslims in general. I myself have said I am not against this ban. But I objected to your connecting French Muslims with Saudi Arabia. I said French Muslims are not Saudi Arabia's problem, they have no connection to Saudi Arabia nor does Saudi Arabia have any connection with them. Next time, try and comprehend, before displaying your racism and ignorance.


----------



## Bilal Akhtar

life is really going to be difficult for our muslim sisters their now just keep faith in god inshallah you will get through this god tests most ones he loves most.we are with you and french govt sad man seriously dont do this you should allow people to practice their religous ideology freely...really angry plus sad at this im really going to pray this ordeal comes to an end for the good hopefully


----------



## Capt.Popeye

Majnun said:


> For God's sake, try to understand. That was a non-serious comment. There is no need to try and dissect it. Stop acting like a nutcase.
> 
> And I haven't been screaming anything, you clearly haven't been reading this thread because you have been too busy trying to group and attack all Muslims in general. I myself have said I am not against this ban. But I objected to your connecting French Muslims with Saudi Arabia. I said French Muslims are not Saudi Arabia's problem, they have no connection to Saudi Arabia nor does Saudi Arabia have any connection with them. Next time, try and comprehend, before displaying your racism and ignorance.


 
I have not said anything at all about Muslims. All I have said in the post above is that its a woman's choice to wear a hijab or not. About the Muzzle, bit you may now say that it was a non serious comment,. But nonetheless it was in very poor taste. If a woman wants to wear a muzzle it should remain her choice, and I have no right to say that she should, let alone force her to do so.

Now about the similarity between the French and Saudi Arabians. Both are trying to be coercive in imposing dress codes, just that the French have started doing it now and the Saudis have been doing it for years. Understand that. Therefore, the Saudis have been putting something similar to muzzles on women who may not want to wear it. So that is also unjustified and in poor taste. Now don't try to tell me that the Saudis are also doing it in some kind of non-serious way! Both Saudi Arabia and France, therefore (without their knowing it) are so connected.

And if your own comments (non-serious ?) about that woman's looks etc did not display bigotry and prejudice then what can be said. Where did rascism come into my comments, since I did not even mention the Saudis so far. Its only in this post that I have even written the word "Saudi".
So may be you should try to comprehend................... or what?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> The lady on the right shows her full face and I think it is perfectly fine.
> 
> On the contrary, the left one looks like a real weirdo.


 
Better watch ur mouth........


----------



## ARSENAL6

^



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Better watch ur mouth........


 
Dude have a little sympathy, the guy never went to school and doesn't know his right from his left.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> One cannot have one's cake and eat it too.
> 
> It is a Muslim country and so the sins of the father has to descend on his children!
> 
> Ever since 9/11, sadly, the West is looking at everything to be emanating from the powerful urge for the ummah and the Caliphate.
> 
> Just notice that even liberal Britain is putting the noose tight on visas to the subcontinent!


 
I dont understand what 9/11 has anything to do with right of woman to wear hijab or veil. lol those who did incident of 9/11 were terrorists irrespective of their religionand they killed innocent peoples irrespective of their religion including musli. All muslims were sad about the lost of innocent lives in 9/11. Incident of 9/11 has no connection with france either. So what is this non sense about father or children. It is also stupid of you to compare religious state with secular or religious laws with secular laws. I would not have any problem if france was a christian country and ban of veil would have taken from their religous scripture bible. But this is not the case as france claim to be secular country and thaswhy we are saying that this ban is against secular laws


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> However, imams preaching terrorisms in mosques, forcing children into religious study instead of regular schools or separate them from interactions with regular local children .


 Have you ever been in any mosque to listen the preaching of imam? I am sure you never been in mosque so how do u know that all imams are preaching terrorism ? I never seen any ignorant/bigot person like you and there is no treatment of negativity exist in ur mind. Keep burning in hate and bigotry. There is nothing wrong getting understanding of ur religous belief and islam is peaceful religion and those who commit terrorism they are not representative of islam but those 99.9 percent muslims who are living peacefully with others are representative of islam. You are blind so you cannot look at those peace loving muslims


----------



## fallstuff

Majnun said:


> The question is why should Saudi Arabia reciprocate for French Muslims? What connection does Saudi Arabia have with French Muslims that obligates them to reciprocate for French Muslims?


 
This is common sense stuff. What French Law has to do with sh*t going in in Saudi Arabia. Think about this, "Why are you poor, because he is rich." 

You would expect people to argue about the technicalities of the Law, French values, rights, and the remedy one has against the Law.


----------



## fallstuff

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Have you ever been in any mosque to listen the preaching of imam? I am sure you never been in mosque so how do u know that all imams are preaching terrorism ? I never seen any ignorant/bigot person like you and there is no treatment of negativity exist in ur mind. Keep burning in hate and bigotry. There is nothing wrong getting understanding of ur religous belief and islam is peaceful religion and those who commit terrorism they are not representative of islam but those 99.9 percent muslims who are living peacefully with others are representative of islam. You are blind so you cannot look at those peace loving muslims


 
Ignore the troll. It is pointless.


----------



## Majnun

Capt.Popeye said:


> I have not said anything at all about Muslims. All I have said in the post above is that its a woman's choice to wear a hijab or not. About the Muzzle, bit you may now say that it was a non serious comment,. But nonetheless it was in very poor taste. If a woman wants to wear a muzzle it should remain her choice, and I have no right to say that she should, let alone force her to do so.
> 
> Now about the similarity between the French and Saudi Arabians. Both are trying to be coercive in imposing dress codes, just that the French have started doing it now and the Saudis have been doing it for years. Understand that. Therefore, the Saudis have been putting something similar to muzzles on women who may not want to wear it. So that is also unjustified and in poor taste. Now don't try to tell me that the Saudis are also doing it in some kind of non-serious way! Both Saudi Arabia and France, therefore (without their knowing it) are so connected.
> 
> And if your own comments (non-serious ?) about that woman's looks etc did not display bigotry and prejudice then what can be said. Where did rascism come into my comments, since I did not even mention the Saudis so far. Its only in this post that I have even written the word "Saudi".
> So may be you should try to comprehend................... or what?


 


Sorry I confused you with Tiki Tam Tam with reference to the Saudis.


----------



## ephone

Are you an idiot or what? Read what I have written carefully. Where the heck I say ALL the imams preaching terrorism?

It has been widely reported that there are imams both in U.S., U.K, Germany, Holland, Canada and etc who preach terrorism and encourage suicide attacks for the past 10 years at least. I do not have to be in a mosque since those MI6, CIA, FBI, Mossad and all other types of anti-terrorism agencies have already infiltrated into various of terrorism networks, mosques to get those bastards revealed in public. 

I have said tons of times that moderate muslims are more than welcome and China is no exception as well. I suppose moderate muslims are those peace loving muslims. 

Well, those muslim fundamentalists/extremists/terrorists or whatever name you give them, are welcome to go to hell on a fast lane.



Raja.Pakistani said:


> Have you ever been in any mosque to listen the preaching of imam? I am sure you never been in mosque so how do u know that all imams are preaching terrorism ? I never seen any ignorant/bigot person like you and there is no treatment of negativity exist in ur mind. Keep burning in hate and bigotry. There is nothing wrong getting understanding of ur religous belief and islam is peaceful religion and those who commit terrorism they are not representative of islam but those 99.9 percent muslims who are living peacefully with others are representative of islam. You are blind so you cannot look at those peace loving muslims


----------



## ephone

Majnun said:


> I am not accustomed to seeing women looking like that. She isn't exactly Miss World is she? I think it would be better for everyone if she wore the face veil.


 
Well, it is better you wear it first before asking any women to do so.


----------



## ephone

Well, in my opinion, she definitely looks like a weirdo in secular world. I do not think even Turkey allows that in public places.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Better watch ur mouth........


----------



## ephone

well, I just saw this news:

Honor killing: U.S. Iraqi imprisoned for murdering daughter - National public safety | Examiner.com

Would I be labelled as anti-islam again for posting this or someones within muslim communities seriously examine its own tolerance issue??? Will Quran allow this type of thing happen? 

Where are those religious scholars? Why cannot they stand up to issue a directive or reach consensus to teach your fellow muslims what is wrong???

Where does this guy learn his weird "value" and using murder to keep his "value"???

It seems that so many make a big fuss that the French is so unfair towards muslims. The world is also so unfair targeting towards muslims for this or that. 

Well, anyone has seriously thought about why???


----------



## oceanx

ephone said:


> ...
> It seems that so many make a far cry that the French is so unfair towards muslims. The world is also so unfair targeting towards muslims for this or that.
> 
> Well, anyone has seriously thought about why???




"Loud cry" professor, loud cry. "Far cry" means "something very different from".

Even an ESL flunkee knows that.


----------



## ephone

oceanx said:


> "Loud cry" professor, loud cry. "Far cry" means "something very different from".
> 
> Even an ESL flunkee knows that.


 
ESL flunkee did well on this one. Nobody is perfect.


----------



## ephone

Well, I was lectured by members here telling me how tolerant islam is and apostasy is not a problem. One guy even gave me a link and a picture showing a former muslim guy leaving islam without any problem.

Here is what I get from a Iranian member:

*In Islam apostasy is punishable by death. And anyways, that's another topic for another day. The fact is that in Iran it is a crime to change your religion and nobody is even allowed to change religion according to law, except from other religions to Islam. Islam is officially the state religion and Islamic law is state law.*

Is this type of apostasy treatment for Iran only or just the same in any part of muslim world? Who is telling the lie here???


----------



## oceanx

ephone said:


> ESL flunkee did well on this one. Nobody is perfect.



Well that's a fluke alright, professor.

Just in this tiny little thread, let's see what a "flunkee" can spot:




ephone said:


> Well, it is better you wear it first before asking any women to do so.



&#24037;&#20892;&#20853;&#22823;&#23398; doesn't teach about plurals ... I suppose we are all victims one way or another.




ephone said:


> However, imams preaching terrorisms in mosques



O wait, maybe they do teach you sumthin' about plurals ... 




ephone said:


> Where the heck I say ALL the imams preaching terrorism?



I suppose this could be a sentence. I am just not sure if this was an English sentence.




ephone said:


> The world is also so unfair targeting towards muslims for this or that.



"Toward" is gratuitous unless all verbs are prepositional in your dictionary.




ephone said:


> and all other types of anti-terrorism agencies have already infiltrated into various of terrorism networks, mosques to get those bastards revealed in public



Ditto for the word "into" ... and what is this "infiltrated _into _various _of_ networks?"  Is that what happens when they get rid of TOEFL as a requirement? Or did you hire someone to "pass" it?


Allow this ESL flunkee to humbly help you face reality professor. You don't know grammar. You don't know "Muslims". You don't know Pakistan. You don't know India ... You hardly know China, and you _think _you know America.

But do preach on.

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## ARSENAL6

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Many in my family wear hijab all of them with their own choice.......... Tell me how it is medieval? unlike footbinding it doesnt hurt u or break ur bones does it? While its all according to our religion.... then who the hell r u t rant abt it? r the muslims in france or usa forcing ur women to wear it?
> NO..........Ur women r free to dress however they like...... wear a bikini or jeans...... we dnt care.
> 
> 
> LIVE N LET LIVE......... No law gives u the right to abuse my freedom of lifestyle....... So remain in ur limits.........Otherwise u n the terrorists r no different...........both trying to push their own crap on others.


 



AMEN TO THAT BROTHER !

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## ephone

About infiltrate into, I give you the following link for you to learn:

infiltrate into - Idioms - by the Free Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

About target towards, this one is for you to learn:

http://minnesotaindependent.com/628...n-cause-pushes-target-towards-clean-elections




oceanx said:


> Well that's a fluke alright, professor.
> 
> Just in this tiny little thread, let's see what a "flunkee" can spot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &#24037;&#20892;&#20853;&#22823;&#23398; doesn't teach about plurals ... I suppose we are all victims one way or another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> O wait, maybe they do teach you sumthin' about plurals ...
> 
> 
> [/U]
> I suppose this could be a sentence. I am just not sure if this was an English sentence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Toward" is gratuitous unless all verbs are prepositional in your dictionary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto for the word "into" ... and what is this "infiltrated _into _various _of_ networks?"  Is that what happens when they get rid of TOEFL as a requirement? Or did you hire someone to "pass" it?
> 
> 
> Allow this ESL flunkee to humbly help you face reality professor. You don't know grammar. You don't know "Muslims". You don't know Pakistan. You don't know India ... You hardly know China, and you _think _you know America.
> 
> But do preach on.


----------



## ephone

ARSENAL6 said:


> AMEN TO THAT BROTHER !



Seriously? You from Israel??? 

Has Israel baned that silly thing yet???


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> Seriously? You from Israel???
> 
> Has Israel baned that silly thing yet???


 
jewish women also wear tht silly thing.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> Well, in my opinion, she definitely looks like a weirdo in secular world. I do not think even Turkey allows that in public places.


in real world ur a racist bigot who hates muslim.......

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## ARSENAL6

ephone said:


> Seriously? You from Israel???
> 
> Has Israel *baned* that silly thing yet???


 
Whatever Country I'm from is irrelevant. Behind this Flag is more than just a simple silly Israeli Flag. Behind this Flag there is an idea:

- An idea where people live in peace and harmony.
- An idea where people respects others regardless of their race, origin, sex, religion, creed, culture, age and disability.
- An idea where people of this world are not afraid of its Government and Government official act like servants to the public. 
- An idea where people are united against a common cause to rid themselves from evil that other greedy men take for granted (Ie the US govt., Free mason, Roth Child, Zionist, Illuminaty, knights templar society)
- An idea where no children around the world are orphans or left for dead or being disadvantage anywhere ...ever !
- An idea where every Muslim land has ridden-off from terrorist, dictators, criminals alike created by the west to control.
- An idea where US govt apologies to Native Americans, White Americans, Chinese, Afro-Americans, Japaneses, Vietnam, Arab and Muslim alike of all the atrocities that took place ever since the existence of the US.
- An idea where Palisteins and Naitive AMericans have given their land back or any confilct around the world including Kashmire.
- An idea when the real truths of JFK and 9/11 are told.
- An idea where the truth is known that the white house was built by black slavery. 
- An idea where Muslim walk the lands free from abuse from racist Islmaphobes, are not question about their faith
and free to practice it whenever and wherever he/she pleases. 
- An idea where the West especially the US and Israelis are free from their stooge Zionist control-freak govt. 
- An idea where every Muslim women choose to wear whatever she wants and not be told by the STATE EVER !
- An idea where Israel stop its genocide against the Arab and Muslim people.
- An idea where Zionism ceased to exists and end its hate against Muslims around the world.
- An idea where the west stop enslaving women as sex slave by brain-washing them to wear sexy clothes and such.
- An idea where the west -propaganda poison media has met its ugly and satisfying end and truthfulness prevails and run across like gushing water around the world.
- An idea when whole of mankind together bow down fully - head to the ground, before the Creator of the Worlds the known and the Unknown, the Seen and the Unseen, Master of the Day of Judgement, Rahman, - YHWH(swt) , God(swt) , Allah(swt).


Its those ideas will set mankind free and Mr. "I want to be a white man" wannabe, ideas are bulletproof.

Further to your discussion certain Israeli has *baned* along side many racist islamophobic such as yourself on the burqa issue.


For those who support those ideas say Ameen to every and each point and pray for the arrival of Prophet Jesus(Pbuh). - God willing - INSHALLAH !

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## fallstuff

ephone said:


> Seriously? You from Israel???
> 
> Has Israel *baned* that silly thing yet???


 
Pot calling the kettle black !!

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## ChineseTiger1986

ephone said:


> Seriously? You from Israel???
> 
> Has Israel *baned* that silly thing yet???


 
Learn how to spell, you illiterate.

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## below_freezing

ARSENAL6 said:


> Whatever Country I'm from is irrelevant. Behind this Flag is more than just a simple silly Israeli Flag. Behind this Flag there is an idea:
> 
> - An idea where people live in peace and harmony.
> - An idea where people respects others regardless of their race, origin, sex, religion, creed, culture, age and disability.
> - An idea where people of this world are not afraid of its Government and Government official act like servants to the public.
> - An idea where people are united against a common cause to rid themselves from evil that other greedy men take for granted (Ie the US govt., Free mason, Roth Child, Zionist, Illuminaty, knights templar society)
> - An idea where no children around the world are orphans or left for dead or being disadvantage anywhere ...ever !
> - An idea where every Muslim land has ridden-off from terrorist, dictators, criminals alike created by the west to control.
> - An idea where US govt apologies to Native Americans, White Americans, Chinese, Afro-Americans, Japaneses, Vietnam, Arab and Muslim alike of all the atrocities that took place ever since the existence of the US.
> - An idea where Palisteins and Naitive AMericans have given their land back or any confilct around the world including Kashmire.
> - An idea when the real truths of JFK and 9/11 are told.
> - An idea where the truth is known that the white house was built by black slavery.
> - An idea where Muslim walk the lands free from abuse from racist Islmaphobes, are not question about their faith
> and free to practice it whenever and wherever he/she pleases.
> - An idea where the West especially the US and Israelis are free from their stooge Zionist control-freak govt.
> - An idea where every Muslim women choose to wear whatever she wants and not be told by the STATE EVER !
> - An idea where Israel stop its genocide against the Arab and Muslim people.
> - An idea where Zionism ceased to exists and end its hate against Muslims around the world.
> - An idea where the west stop enslaving women as sex slave by brain-washing them to wear sexy clothes and such.
> - An idea where the west -propaganda poison media has met its ugly and satisfying end and truthfulness prevails and run across like gushing water around the world.
> - An idea when whole of mankind together bow down fully - head to the ground, before the Creator of the Worlds the known and the Unknown, the Seen and the Unseen, Master of the Day of Judgement, Rahman, - YHWH(swt) , God(swt) , Allah(swt).
> 
> 
> Its those ideas will set mankind free and Mr. "I want to be a white man" wannabe, ideas are bulletproof.
> 
> Further to your discussion certain Israeli has *baned* along side many racist islamophobic such as yourself on the burqa issue.
> 
> 
> For those who support those ideas say Ameen to every and each point and pray for the arrival of Prophet Jesus(Pbuh). - God willing - INSHALLAH !


 
So true. People like you give me hope in the Middle East. Hopefully, Israel will continue prospering. There is just so much hatred stirred up by the Wall Street regime, and many who benefit from this hatred are free to say their message, but those who oppose it are silenced.

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## Tiki Tam Tam

France may have banned the full face ban and there is outrage here.

It is good to see the Chinese supporting the same and why not?

However, just as an aside, it maybe interesting to note that in China, Islam is controlled and people below 18 are not allowed to have any religious education or go to the Mosque.

Therefore, it is fishing in troubled waters at best.



> Islamism and the State
> 
> China maintains an intricate system of control over its Muslim minorities. China&#8217;s Islamic educational institutions, which span grades 1 through 12, are closely monitored by the region&#8217;s Commission on Religious and Ethnic Affairs (CREA), and its teachers and clergy are thoroughly vetted by the parallel Islamic Association to ensure they do not harbor extremist ideas or tendencies. As a practical matter, this has meant the creation of a series of state&#8208;sponsored and tightly&#8208;controlled religious schools for Chinese Muslims.38
> 
> Despite policies that give Uighurs preferential admission to China&#8217;s secular universities, there remains a lack of university-level Islamic education. China currently possesses no Islamic universities or upper level curricula in Islamic affairs.39 Those Muslims interested in becoming imams or religious leaders, therefore, must travel to established Islamic universities in the Middle East, such as Egypt&#8217;s al&#8208;Azhar University, to complete their theological instruction. These educational institutions, however, have historically served as breeding grounds for Islamic extremism (al&#8208;Azhar was the birthplace of the Muslim Brotherhood in the early 20th century) thus creating the potential for the radicalization of China&#8217;s Muslims in the last stage of their theological training.40
> 
> Foreign funds flowing to Islamic schools&#8212;historically a source of radicalization among Muslim communities in other parts of the world&#8212;are tightly controlled in China. Foreign funds for education in Muslim communities are channeled through CREA and the official Islamic Association, and the independent construction of mosques and religious schools is strictly prohibited.41 At the same time, the CPC supplies students&#8217; textbooks, thereby controlling the content of what is taught in Muslim educational institutions. Like all students in China, in order to advance Muslims must reproduce answers that reflect history as described within officially approved texts.
> 
> Limits on religious activity likewise abound. Until the unrest of 2008-09 (described below), propaganda and education controls coupled with ample security appeared to have sufficiently mitigated Islamist activity within China&#8217;s Muslim communities. After widespread unrest in Xinjiang began, however, authorities sought to rigidly enforce laws and provisions that severely restrict the practice and teaching of Islam. These regulations, which had been on the books for years, were now publicly posted online and on banners throughout Xinjiang.42 Examples of policies that limit Islamic activity include:
> 
> Half-hour limits on sermons
> Prohibition on prayer in public areas
> Prohibitions on the teaching of the Koran in private
> Restrictions on worship, with Muslims only permitted to attend their hometown mosques
> Restrictions on the studying of Arabic to special government schools
> Prohibitions on government workers and CPC members from attending mosque
> 
> Two of Islam&#8217;s five pillars&#8212;the sacred fasting month of Ramadan and the Hajj&#8212;are also carefully controlled in China. To reduce exposure to Islamist teachings, authorities use propaganda and control of passports to compel Muslims to join government-run Hajj tours rather than travel illegally to Mecca.43 Yet, policies that compel students and government workers to eat during the holy month of Ramadan have faced the most pushback. In 2007, one university in Kashgar forced students to eat during the day by locking its gates and putting glass shards atop the campus walls to prevent them from returning home after dark to break the daily fast.44
> 
> Similarly, China&#8217;s Muslims are systematically shut out of national (although not regional) politics. One major reason is that Han Chinese&#8212;even those with progressive tendencies toward constitutional democracy&#8212;often cannot see the difference between a politically active Uighur and a separatist.45
> 
> Until quite recently, China did not have a terrorism problem, at least not one as commonly understood in the West. Although low&#8208;grade insurgent activity did unquestionably exist, regional law enforcement agencies appeared to have effectively neutralized Islamist radicals until 2008-9. While there was, and remains, no indication that radicals in Xinjiang enjoy widespread popularity in other parts of the country, the state&#8217;s increasingly tight controls on the practice of Islam and limits on speech and movement have engendered widespread frustration and anger among Muslims, Uighurs in particular. Building resentment of heavy-handed state intervention in religious life&#8212;not the insidious intervention of foreign influences, as Beijing claims&#8212;has solidified the separatist movement, given it grassroots support, and catalyzed a campaign of Uighur aggression against the state in 2008-9.
> 
> Although the details remain unclear, it appears that state repression of Islam was the catalyst for a wave of Uighur unrest including a variety of attacks against the Chinese authorities, military, and the Han citizenry that took place in the spring and summer of 2008. Between May and August 2008, Uighur separatists reportedly attacked police in Wenzhou using an explosive-laden tractor,46 bombed a Guangzhou plastic factory,47 and coordinated a series of deadly bus bombings in Shanghai and Kunming.48 These attacks culminated with two deadly terrorist attacks in early August 2008&#8212;the first involving an assault on police officers in Kashgar,49 and the second involving a series of 12 homemade pipe bombs that simultaneously hit a public security station, the industrial and commercial administrative office, a local department store, a post and telecommunications office and a hotel in the city of Kuqa.50
> 
> In response, Chinese authorities launched a series of countermeasures. In August 2008, hundreds of Uighurs were detained and thousands of paramilitary forces were deployed throughout Xinjiang. Police patrolled Kashgar&#8217;s Uighur neighborhoods, entering houses to check occupants' names against a government list.51 By the end of that month, approximately 200,000 police had been mobilized to &#8220;check and register&#8221; the transient Uighur population. Police swept hotel rooms, rental apartments, and remote villages for separatists and set up checkpoints between townships and villages.52 These enhanced security efforts reportedly uncovered 12 cells operating in Kashgar, resulting in 66 arrests; five cells in Urumqi, resulting in 82 arrests, and; the destruction of &#8220;41 training camps that had been engaged in illegal proselytizing and the training of jihadists.&#8221;53 The crackdown culminated in the reinstatement of the "10-household mutually insured system" in Kashgar and Khotan. Under that policy, if one person is found guilty of anti-state activities, the 10 neighboring families will also be held responsible.54
> 
> The state&#8217;s campaign targeting the &#8220;three evil forces&#8221; also led to greater emphasis on regulations restricting Islam by local governments within Xinjiang.55 The strict enforcement of laws designed to inhibit the practice and spread of Islam appears to have significantly eroded public support for the state and galvanized public anger and resentment into a force that extremists can manipulate. In this way, increased security measures have served to confirm Islamist claims about state repression. Indeed, almost 1,300 state security-related arrests were carried out in Xinjiang between January-November 2008, and about one-half of all trials in China related to the crime of endangering state security take place in Xinjiang.56
> 
> Beijing has long had a policy of encouraging Uighur migration to other parts of China in the hope that economic opportunities and intermarriage will gradually integrate Muslim Uighurs into secular Chinese society. Although the incidents that sparked the large-scale ethnic violence in July 2009 took place thousands of miles away in Shaoguan, Guangdong,57 the massive scale of the Uighur response in Urumqi reflected widespread public hostility towards the state&#8217;s tightened restrictions on Islamic activity. Thousands took to the streets on July 5th in an initially peaceful protest that turned violent against the state and ethnic Hans. The Han responded with their own wave of anti-Uighur violence and when the smoke cleared nearly 200 were dead and at least 1,680 injured, most of them Han.58
> 
> Soon after state security suppressed the Urumqi riots, authorities in Yining &#8220;smashed two violence gangs, and arrested more than 70 suspects,&#8221; according to Jiao Baohua, secretary of the Yining city CPC committee.59 In all, the Chinese state has implemented a series of new measures designed to prevent further violence. These steps entailed:
> 
> Increased security, including the deployment of thousands of armed police, special police, and public security personnel to patrol the Uighur sections of Xinjiang&#8217;s capital city, Urumqi, and carry out numerous raids;60 new city government ordinances calling on all local businesses and residents to register guests with the authorities;61 new traffic restrictions and a city-wide after dark curfew;62 harsh sentences for those involved in the riots;63 and manhunts for suspected Islamists.64
> Expanded propaganda, including the initiation of &#8220;face-to-face interactions to explain the truth and expose the lies and sinister intentions of the hostile forces both at home and abroad, and preach the importance of nationality solidarity and stability&#8221;;65 the creation of Uighur working groups &#8220;to conduct intensive propaganda and educational work and to safeguard social stability&#8221;;66 and the deployment of some 2,100 more officials and police to communities in Urumqi &#8220;to explain government policies and solve disputes.&#8221;67
> Improved information and financial controls, including the suspension of text-messaging and Internet services in Xinjiang between July 2009 and January 2010;68 and a region-wide effort by law enforcement agencies throughout 2009 to target the finances and properties of extremists and groups agitating for Uighur independence.69
> Legal controls, including new restrictions on&#8212;and warnings to&#8212;lawyers,70 as well as death sentences for some rioters and harsh prison sentences for others.71
> Investment: Investment injected from the central government and state-owned enterprises will help Xinjiang &#8220;realize fast-paced economic development." The central government has also paired up Chinese municipalities and provinces with different areas of Xinjiang to provide large amounts of capital, technology and talent. (The term &#8220;talent&#8221; may be a euphemism for &#8220;Han Chinese labor immigration,&#8221; a major source of irritation within the Uighur minority.)72
> A reshuffle of governmental personnel, including the ouster of Urumqi's Communist Party Secretary, Li Zhi, and Xinjiang's regional police chief. Wang Lequan, the hard-line secretary of the CPC Committee of Xinjiang for 15 years and an ally of President Hu Jintao, came under unprecedented pressure but managed to retain his post until April 2010.73 He was finally transferred to Beijing and replaced with Zhang Chunxian, who as Party chief of Hunan province gained the reputation as a soft-liner.
> 
> Today Xinjiang remains a difficult place to practice Islam. A vicious cycle of repression and rebellion now exists whereby the state&#8217;s suppression of Islam continues to broaden the appeal of extremist Islamist ideologies among Uighurs.
> Excerpt from:
> China | The World Almanac of Islamism


----------



## below_freezing

Some Uighurs are nothing more than reverse racist skinheads who think they're white and not Chinese. They have both terrorist and Nazi influences, these Uighurs must be suppressed. However, the majority of Uighurs who think of themselves as Chinese citizens and not primarily as white Muslims 

In addition, China has not banned Sharia. Sharia, intermixed with local traditions, is still practiced within the Uighur community, but certain cultural excesses are strictly prohibited, such as honor killings.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

below_freezing said:


> Some Uighurs are nothing more than reverse racist skinheads who think they're white and not Chinese. They have both terrorist and Nazi influences, these Uighurs must be suppressed. However, the majority of Uighurs who think of themselves as Chinese citizens and not primarily as white Muslims
> 
> In addition, China has not banned Sharia. Sharia, intermixed with local traditions, is still practiced within the Uighur community, but certain cultural excesses are strictly prohibited, such as honor killings.


 
Most Uyghurs look like Central Asian mongoloid, not much white in them.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

below_freezing said:


> Some Uighurs are nothing more than reverse racist skinheads who think they're white and not Chinese. They have both terrorist and Nazi influences, these Uighurs must be suppressed. However, the majority of Uighurs who think of themselves as Chinese citizens and not primarily as white Muslims
> 
> In addition, China has not banned Sharia. Sharia, intermixed with local traditions, is still practiced within the Uighur community, but certain cultural excesses are strictly prohibited, such as honor killings.



You maybe right.

No quibble on that.

China has not banned Sharia, but has ensured by control that it is in conformity with the State policies and does not upset Chinese way of life.

Just like it is done for Christianity - control.

In Islam, there can be NO local influence that can be intermixed. The Quaran, Hadith, etc are the guide and there can be NO deviation or interpretation.

Read the report I have appended. It is not my idea at all.

China has to ensure that foreign religions do not upset the Chinese way of life or the culture that has been developed over the ages.

One may not agree with it, but that is how China does it and that is what ensures that China's stability is not upset by foreign ideas!!

In many countries, religious divide is the cause of misery.

Clinically analysed, it is a quite good a reason, for China to be so and ensure that foreign influences do not upset the Chinese way of life.


----------



## ephone

Jewish women wear burqa covering their whole face??? 

Why don't you show the source???



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> jewish women also wear tht silly thing.


----------



## ephone

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Learn how to spell, you illiterate.


 
There are tons of mis-spelling in your posts. If I were illiterate, you are for sure the retarded one.


----------



## ephone

China has much tighter control over muslims over what they called "muslim rights" than France has ever dreamed of. 

As far as Uighurs self-recognition as Chinese or what, to be honest, I really cannot say majority of the Uighurs think of themselves as Chinese since I am not one of them. That sentence must come from government article. 

However, as my classmates there told me, the Uighurs hostility towards Han Chinese there is wild-spread. 

Of course, we try to help them integrate China's main culture and let them become the fabric of the whole picture. However, if they choose not to, they can go whatever they want to. In that part of land, China will enforce the secular law for the best interest of China. 



Tiki Tam Tam said:


> France may have banned the full face ban and there is outrage here.
> 
> It is good to see the Chinese supporting the same and why not?
> 
> However, just as an aside, it maybe interesting to note that in China, Islam is controlled and people below 18 are not allowed to have any religious education or go to the Mosque.
> 
> Therefore, it is fishing in troubled waters at best.


----------



## oceanx

ephone said:


> About infiltrate into, I give you the following link for you to learn:
> 
> infiltrate into - Idioms - by the Free Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.



If you are going to quote me the "free dictionary" courtesy of professor Google, at least quote me the whole shabam, which is here. We'll be the judge as to which usage is less awkward.

How about googling a little harder and find me a construct similar to your "infiltrate _into_ various _of_ networks"?

There is no shame in admitting that you don't know how to use prepositions. Put aside the preaching and learn something. We are all trying to do that around here.




ephone said:


> About target towards, this one is for you to learn:
> 
> Target CEO apologizes, Common Cause pushes Target towards clean elections | Minnesota Independent: News. Politics. Media.



Lol ... glad you like comedy. Do you need a course on googling? C'mon, even &#24037;&#20892;&#20853;&#22823;&#23398; cannot be that bad ... did you buy a diploma to come to the USA?

In your example, it says "Common Cause pushes *Target* towards clean elections". Here "Target" is not only a _noun_, it's the name of a friggin' retail company all over your home of the brave!

And you are using "Target" the department store to justify your illiterate construct as in "targeting _towards_ Muslims"?

It just goes to show that Amrika's main problems are not terrorists, or foreclosures ... and not even drug dealers, but the H1-B visa holders with fake credential papers.

Now humour me, tell me you put up the example above as a joke ... so we can both "save face". Actually don't do it for me. Do it for brotha Speeda. Now how is it gonna go down when he sells to everybody that Chinese people are the most intelligent?


----------



## Capt.Popeye

oceanx said:


> If you are going to quote me the "free dictionary" courtesy of professor Google, at least quote me the whole shabam, which is here. We'll be the judge as to which usage is less awkward.
> 
> How about googling a little harder and find me a construct similar to your "infiltrate _into_ various _of_ networks"?
> 
> There is no shame in admitting that you don't know how to use prepositions. Put aside the preaching and learn something. We are all trying to do that around here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lol ... glad you like comedy. Do you need a course on googling? C'mon, even &#24037;&#20892;&#20853;&#22823;&#23398; cannot be that bad ... did you buy a diploma to come to the USA?
> 
> In your example, it says "Common Cause pushes *Target* towards clean elections". Here "Target" is not only a _noun_, it's the name of a friggin' retail company all over your home of the brave!
> 
> And you are using "Target" the department store to justify your illiterate construct as in "targeting _towards_ Muslims"?
> 
> It just goes to show that Amrika's main problems are not terrorists, or foreclosures ... and not even drug dealers, but the H1-B visa holders with fake credential papers.
> 
> Now humour me, tell me you put up the example above as a joke ... so we can both "save face". Actually don't do it for me. Do it for brotha Speeda. Now how is it gonna go down when he sells to everybody that Chinese people are the most intelligent?


 
Was'nt this thread about " France starts ban on full-face veil"?? 
And to talk about English language writing and comprehension skills is "bit too much", don't you think ? Takes off-topic trolling and derailing to some "unusual heights" or should I say "depths".


----------



## ephone

Anything is wrong in the link I have provided???

Mis-spelling, extra words happen all the time for this type of forum typing. It should be "various networks". However, it seems that there is nothing wrong with "infiltrate into" since I do see such phrase several times in published news articles. 

As for the 2nd link, if you do not like that one, check this: Netbooks: A Target Towards Education - TopTenREVIEWS

Well, get more efforts to check everyone's spelling and make sure check yours as well.

About saving face??? I do not even know who the hell you are and what part of saving face I have to do for you??? Who the hell do you think you are???




oceanx said:


> If you are going to quote me the "free dictionary" courtesy of professor Google, at least quote me the whole shabam, which is here. We'll be the judge as to which usage is less awkward.
> 
> How about googling a little harder and find me a construct similar to your "infiltrate _into_ various _of_ networks"?
> 
> There is no shame in admitting that you don't know how to use prepositions. Put aside the preaching and learn something. We are all trying to do that around here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lol ... glad you like comedy. Do you need a course on googling? C'mon, even &#24037;&#20892;&#20853;&#22823;&#23398; cannot be that bad ... did you buy a diploma to come to the USA?
> 
> In your example, it says "Common Cause pushes *Target* towards clean elections". Here "Target" is not only a _noun_, it's the name of a friggin' retail company all over your home of the brave!
> 
> And you are using "Target" the department store to justify your illiterate construct as in "targeting _towards_ Muslims"?
> 
> It just goes to show that Amrika's main problems are not terrorists, or foreclosures ... and not even drug dealers, but the H1-B visa holders with fake credential papers.
> 
> Now humour me, tell me you put up the example above as a joke ... so we can both "save face". Actually don't do it for me. Do it for brotha Speeda. Now how is it gonna go down when he sells to everybody that Chinese people are the most intelligent?


----------



## ephone

Capt.Popeye said:


> Was'nt this thread about " France starts ban on full-face veil"??
> And to talk about English language writing and comprehension skills is "bit too much", don't you think ? Takes off-topic trolling and derailing to some "unusual heights" or should I say "depths".


 
Well, he kept doing so by attacking me, what can I do?


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## Capt.Popeye

ephone said:


> Well, he kept doing so by attacking me, what can I do?



Try to ignore him if possible. He seems to have run out of gas as it is.


----------



## oceanx

Capt.Popeye said:


> Was'nt this thread about " France starts ban on full-face veil"??
> And to talk about English language writing and comprehension skills is "bit too much", don't you think ? Takes off-topic trolling and derailing to some "unusual heights" or should I say "depths".


 
Most heart-felt mea culpa captain. Professor e-Phony and I are just cross-posting back-and-forth from there.

But don't you think a little grammar education is more important than whatever little antics Froggies serve up from time to time? 

No? Then carry on with your discourse on face-veil and put me on the "ignore list" ... isn't it simple?


----------



## Capt.Popeye

oceanx said:


> Most heart-felt mea culpa captain. Professor e-Phony and I are just cross-posting back-and-forth from there.
> 
> But don't you think a little grammar education is more important than whatever little antics Froggies serve up from time to time?
> 
> No? Then carry on with your discourse on face-veil and put me on the "ignore list" ... isn't it simple?


 
So you think this is a "Grammar Forum" and we can play act at being "Professor Higgins" ? If that makes your day .............
Good-Bye "Professor".


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## oceanx

Bye Captain.


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## oceanx

ephone said:


> As for the 2nd link, if you do not like that one, check this: Netbooks: A Target Towards Education - TopTenREVIEWS



So let's all come back to the Montessori pre-school level. I apologize for introducing concepts like "prepositions", etc ...

We are not ready.

So just the basics: is there a difference between a "verb" and a "noun"?

Do you use "target" the verb the same way you use "target" the noun?

Perhaps there is _no _difference. Isn't it just like everything else? There is no context, no nuance, no "finesse".

I get it ... it's just like "Secularism" ... it's one-size-fits-all. No nuance, no context, no understanding, no "nothing".

No verb, no noun ...


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## ephone

Grammatically, what you said is from school's textbook.

Just like "infiltrate", it is used as transitive verb, a.k.a,&#21450;&#29289;&#21160;&#35789;&#12290; So there should be noun after it. However, language develops in a way that certain way of usage, even though it may not be in line with original grammar rules, has been taken as an accepted way after used for quite some time.

Just like "infiltrate into" is also used in many places, just like:
Pak terrorist infiltrates into US to 'target' Times Square

"towards" as a prep, it can follow a noun, or a verb. And the meaning of the noun and verb can be the same as well. 

Still in your English Test environment???



oceanx said:


> So let's all come back to the Montessori pre-school level. I apologize for introducing concepts like "prepositions", etc ...
> 
> We are not ready.
> 
> So just the basics: is there a difference between a "verb" and a "noun"?
> 
> Do you use "target" the verb the same way you use "target" the noun?
> 
> Perhaps there is _no _difference. Isn't it just like everything else? There is no context, no nuance, no "finesse".
> 
> I get it ... it's just like "Secularism" ... it's one-size-fits-all. No nuance, no context, no understanding, no "nothing".
> 
> No verb, no noun ...


----------



## ARSENAL6

Story about the Burqa










ephone said:


> Jewish women wear burqa covering their whole face???
> 
> Why don't you show the source???




This for you ephone, a person who cant even use a simple tool like Google. Even five years olds are able to get information from Google. Do you want me to.. you show the source of that too, ephone ?


Why Jewish Women Are Wearing Burqas

Double Standard: The frumka: Orthodox women find religion









A Jewish type of burqa, called a 'frumka', is a growing trend among Ultra-Orthodox Jewish women, although the Jewish version is more extreme than its Muslim equivalent, with women wearing up to 7 veils, 10 skirts and also gloves. 
Discussing the 'frumka', Orthodox trends, and modesty and piety as status symbols


Is acting like a retard, stops you seeking the truth, a tactic that will stop you feeling like the idiot when finally realising that you are wrong ? I wonder.





ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Learn how to spell, you illiterate.






ephone said:


> There are tons of mis-spelling in your posts. If I were illiterate, you are for sure the retarded one.



Calling the kettle black are we ephone ? I give up !


----------



## oceanx

ephone said:


> Grammatically, what you said is from school's textbook.
> 
> ... terrorist ... 'target' Times Square



Did you example say "target _towards_ Times Square"? 

We all make mistakes e-Phony. Fisheye was reasonably astute in observing that I _am _running "out of gas" ... there is only so much I can do to educate a fool.

You trotted out "Target" the department store adopting certain policies _towards_ a goal, and then even served up netbooks as a "target" _towards_ education ... to justify an illiterate construct as in "targeting _towards_ Mulslims".

If we have to belabour this grammar bit, then so be it. Indeed a preposition _can _follow either a verb or a noun. However, the nuance and the meanings change ... sometimes entirely.

Targeting _toward_ something sounds awkward ... but it can work as an expression. It will generally mean having a goal toward something. It's generally implied in a _positive_ sense.

Targeting someone means something entirely different. It generally means aiming at individuals with the intent to "_focus on"_, "_rein in_", "_hold down_", or "correct" ... The usage is _negative_.

No numbers of department stores or netbooks can justify your illiterate construct "targeting _towards_ Muslims". * It is disgraceful to argue otherwise.*

But as you know my interest is far from grammar. I was merely responding to you from the other thread.

However, you utter disregard for context and subtlety is something shared on multiple fronts.

Just as in grammar - you preach about Islam, Secularism without showing any understanding of nuance, subtlety, and context ...

It reminds me of that time when you boldly claim that the PRC has nary a care for so-called world opinions when the country sorts out ethnoreligious conflicts. Then why was there an OIC fact-finding delegation in Xinjiang after the 2009 riot? 

Stick to what you know, "professor". And build on that. Anything more just embarrasses yourself.


----------



## ARSENAL6

^ I'm waiting for his answer on the Jewish Burqa.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

ARSENAL6 said:


> ^ I'm waiting for his answer on the Jewish Burqa.


 
YouTube - Jewish Burqa Trend: The Frumka - pt 1 of 2

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## ephone

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> YouTube - Jewish Burqa Trend: The Frumka - pt 1 of 2


 
I just googled that.

It seems that those Jewish Burqa-Wearers are just so few and it is also a recent "fasion" among very few jewish women within a minority of Jewish people: "Ultra Orthodox Jews".

So that is really not representational for Jewish people at all. BTW, have they protected the ban yet? 

In addition, in that case, you will not claim such ban is only targeted at muslims, will you?

The bottom of line of such ban is that it is written in French laws. You either obey it or just go home.

French and most of other European countries have been way too much lenient towards muslims "rights". As some indian members have labored with that long paragraph about China Laws towards islam, we China has been much tougher in the regard, e.g. restriction against pray, religious school and etc. Welcome to China to protest. See whether we give a fxxk what you protest.


----------



## ephone

ARSENAL6 said:


> ^ I'm waiting for his answer on the Jewish Burqa.


 
BTW, you put up a Israel flag. Let me ask you, to whom are you loyal? 

Israel or your religion: islam?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

ephone said:


> I just googled that.
> 
> It seems that those Jewish Burqa-Wearers are just so few and it is also a recent "fasion" among very few jewish women within a minority of Jewish people: "Ultra Orthodox Jews".
> 
> So that is really not representational for Jewish people at all. BTW, have they protected the ban yet?
> 
> In addition, in that case, you will not claim such ban is only targeted at muslims, will you?
> 
> The bottom of line of such ban is that it is written in French laws. You either obey it or just go home.
> 
> French and most of other European countries have been way too much lenient towards muslims "rights". As some indian members have labored with that long paragraph about China Laws towards islam, we China has been much tougher in the regard, e.g. restriction against pray, religious school and etc. Welcome to China to protest. See whether we give a fxxk what you protest.



Wat home? france is their home ............ just like us is urs.......... n who the fxx r u to talk abt it?an imigrant living in usa ??? who hates muslims?



Maybe ovel was right abt u having some trauma........maybe coz of tht u r so hate filled against muslims n their FREEDOM.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

ephone said:


> I do not have to be in a mosque since those MI6, CIA, FBI, Mossad and all other types of anti-terrorism agencies have already infiltrated into various of terrorism networks, mosques to get those bastards revealed in public.


 
Did your beloved CIA/FBI told you how many innocents peoples got killed in Afghanistan, Iraq because of american bombings? 

Did you beloved CIA/FBI told you why USA supported these terrorist against Russia. They were Mujahdeenn when they were fighting with Russia? Right? 

A terrorist is someone who does not care who gets hurt, so long as they get what they want. This qualifies an awful lot of people as terrorists including your uncle Bush.

There are far better ways to handle conflicts in ideology than murdering innocent people. We all need to begin to understand that people who are willing to harm innocent people to get what they want are terrorists. It does not matter if their names are Ephone, Osama, Obama, bush, rumsfeld


----------



## Cloakedvessel

At the university I had a college and was placed in a group where one of the lady had a total veil. It felt so strange talking to her. You never knew when to adress her and when not.

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## Raja.Pakistani

Cloakedvessel said:


> At the university I had a college


I did not get this 


Cloakedvessel said:


> and was placed in a group where one of the lady had a total veil. It felt so strange talking to her. You never knew when to adress her and when not.


Yes many things which are not being practice in our own culture feel strange to us

I also find many things which is being practice in different cultures as strange and weird but then again many things in my culture are strange for others


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## Cloakedvessel

Raja.Pakistani said:


> I did not get this
> 
> Yes many things which are not being practice in our own culture feel strange to us
> 
> I also find many things which is being practice in different cultures as strange and weird but then again many things in my culture are strange for others



Sorry, my English isn't sufficent, I suppose. In Dutch 'college' (same way spelled as in English, although pronounced differently) means lecture. I guess in English it means school building.

For communication purposes I think a veil is not practical.

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## Raja.Pakistani

Cloakedvessel said:


> Sorry, my English isn't sufficent, I suppose. In Dutch 'college' (same way spelled as in English, although pronounced differently) means lecture. I guess in English it means school building.
> 
> For communication purposes I think a veil is not practical.



Dont worry my English is even worse. I just wanted to clarify 

I understand what you are trying to say but We can communicate with each others without face to face contact for example chatting or vioce calling or you only consider video chat(where face is visible) as communication

We are having communication with each others right now.. Many times i dont even bother to look at the face of my professor(although she is cute ) but pay attention to what she say which is more practical

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## ARSENAL6

The more you ban the more it will come up.

It look like Allah(swt) has listern to the devote Muslim Women in France and so found another way to bring back the Burqa !



Nigella Lawson Sports Burkini at Bondi Beach

Al-humdullah

Inshallah Burqa is here to stay ! LOL


----------



## Hussein

ARSENAL6 said:


> The more you ban the more it will come up.
> 
> It look like Allah(swt) has listern to the devote Muslim Women in France and so found another way to bring back the Burqa !
> 
> 
> 
> Nigella Lawson Sports Burkini at Bondi Beach
> 
> Al-humdullah
> 
> Inshallah Burqa is here to stay ! LOL


0.1% of muslim women wearing a burqa , it is not what i would name "it is coming up"
burqa is not veil anyway 

Alhamdulillah &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1604;&#1604;&#1607; but if you are Jew why not use your Halelu Yah . it is no shame to be Jew.

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## srsrsr

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Dont worry my English is even worse. I just wanted to clarify
> 
> I understand what you are trying to say but We can communicate with each others without face to face contact for example chatting or vioce calling or you only consider video chat(where face is visible) as communication
> 
> We are having communication with each others right now.. Many times i dont even bother to look at the face of my professor(although she is cute ) but pay attention to what she say which is more practical



buddy - your's is very very amateurish argument...imagine these 3 scenarios and tell me which is more effective communication ()

a) don't see the person, don't hear his/her voice and exchange written notes ( mail/chat)
b) don't see the person, hear his/her voice and communicate by talk ( phone)
c) see the person, hear his/her voice and communicate by talk and gestures ( in person)

pls keep islam out of this and respond based on practical knowledge....


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## JayAtl

all men who protest should wear veils for the rest of their lives in France. in fact cover the whole thing up... and allow women to take them around- that way you go after the problem- the men who leech at women.

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## Agnostic_Indian

*Muslims wary of French plan to toughen ban on veils*
Tuesday, April 2, 2013
By JAMEY KEATEN, The Associated Press
Because of her choice to wear a headscarf, Samia Kaddour, a
Muslim, has all but abandoned trying to land a government job in
France. Soon, some private sector jobs could be off limits, too.
*French President François Hollande says he wants a new law that
could extend restrictions on the wearing of prominent religious
symbols in state jobs into the private sector. His new approach comes
after a top French court ruled in March that a daycare operator that
gets some state funding unfairly fired a woman in a headscarf,
sparking a political backlash.*
As Christians celebrated Easter on Sunday, Kaddour attended the
four-day Annual Meeting of Muslims of France in Le Bourget, north of
Paris. The convention, which last year drew some 160,000 and was
expected to grow this year, is billed as the largest annual gathering of
its kind in Europe. It is in its 30th year and ended Monday.
*French law bars state employees from wearing prominent religious
symbols such as Muslim headscarves, Jewish skullcaps or large
Christian crosses in public schools, welfare offices or other
government facilities. Two years ago, France banned Muslim veils that
cover faces from being worn anywhere in public.*
Meeting leaders say France has made progress in accepting Muslims
and noted that, unlike 30 years ago, women wearing headscarves
today rarely draw suspicion, scowls or curiosity. Still, many Muslims -
and even some Roman Catholics and Jews - fear France's insistence
on secular values first enshrined in the French Revolution more than
two centuries ago is unfairly crimping their ability to express their
religious beliefs freely.
They also worry that Hollande's Socialist government, like a
conservative one before it, wants to score political points.
"Islam has become a political instrument," said Kaddour, 26, who is a
community activist from the English Channel port city of Le Havre and
one of 10 children of Algerian-born parents who moved to France for
plentiful jobs during its economic boom times decades ago. "Islam is
always brandished whenever there is internal political discord."
Many Muslims fear an encroaching Islamophobia, while proponents of
such measures insist they counter extremism and act as a rampart to
protect France's identity against inequality.
© Copyright (c) The Montreal Gazette



IslamiCity.com


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## Cloakedvessel

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Dont worry my English is even worse. I just wanted to clarify
> 
> I understand what you are trying to say but We can communicate with each others without face to face contact for example chatting or vioce calling or you only consider video chat(where face is visible) as communication
> 
> We are having communication with each others right now.. Many times i dont even bother to look at the face of my professor(although she is cute ) but pay attention to what she say which is more practical



Your comparisons are false equivalences. When calling or chatting of course you don't see each others face, that is what we expect to be. The fundamental difference is that each side is in the same situation. There is the case of evenness, which is absent when I am in the opposite position of a person wearing a burqa. It's an unequal level of communication, which is not reproduced in telephonic communications or during a debate on a forum such as this.

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## graphican

Inshallah - means Allah Willing. Nothing happens without His will and seeking His permission is better for faithful believers. There is no harm in saying that, even if in your opinion it is not good, Allah is the judge here and His permission is being requested. Does it hurt you?


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## Agnostic_Indian

France is over doing things in the name of secularism and equality, I mean one can understand banning of full face cover(security issues ),

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...wQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNGG8YIfLXkorsO2chqWDj4MBQfEcQ
but banning head scarf, cross, Jewish cap etc from govt offices, schools etc is an encroach to citizens freedom religion and freedom of fashion.


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## Audio

Agnostic_Indian said:


> France is over doing things in the name of secularism and equality, I mean one can understand banning of full face cover(security issues ), but banning head scarf, cross, Jewish cap etc from govt offices, schools etc is an encroach to citizens freedom religion and freedom of fashion.



Working in a government position means you have to relinquish some freedoms anyway, especially fashion. There are dress codes. You cannot work at window as a clerk dressed in torn jeans and a spiked leather jacket ala punkrocker style.
As far as freedom of religion, you can put on all the religious symbols you wish after you have clocked out of work.

There is also the thing of when offering the finger and the hand gets taken it is best to retract that finger.


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## Agnostic_Indian

Audio said:


> Working in a government position means you have to relinquish some freedoms anyway, especially fashion. There are dress codes. You cannot work at window as a clerk dressed in torn jeans and a spiked leather jacket ala punkrocker style.
> As far as freedom of religion, you can put on all the religious symbols you wish after you have clocked out of work.
> 
> There is also the thing of when offering the finger and the hand gets taken it is best to retract that finger.



govt officer require decent dressing,if there is a uniform that too, but that doesn't mean you can't wear a cross,scarf etc, that is an unnecessary encroachment to personal, religious freedom.


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## Audio

Agnostic_Indian said:


> govt officer require decent dressing,if there is a uniform that too, but that doesn't mean you can't wear a cross,scarf etc, that is an unnecessary encroachment to personal, religious freedom.



Does the concept of a secular country which is represented by people with excessive religious symbols sound ok to you?
If a certain person feels these requirements encroach on him or her he is welcome to find another job. That is his freedom as well.

And what about my freedom of not wanting to see symbols of backwardness when taking care of various bureaucratic processes which are stressful as is.


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## Wright

Its not like muslims flock to France anyway when the GCC is experiancing an economic boom.


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## Agnostic_Indian

Audio said:


> Does the concept of a secular country which is represented by people with excessive religious symbols sound ok to you?
> If a certain person feels these requirements encroach on him or her he is welcome to find another job. That is his freedom as well.
> 
> And what about my freedom of not wanting to see symbols of backwardness when taking care of various bureaucratic processes which are stressful as is.



people doesn't need to sacrifice things like this for country to become secular, that's the matter of state, a minister wearing a cross, Jews cap can still propose secular laws for the state. what people wears is neither a concern of state nor dose it affect it's secular credentials, unless it is vulgar or it endanger security. somebody seeing someone else wearing his religious symbol on his sleeves is not hurting his sentiment or right, he can't ask other one to not wear anything's because he doesn't like the others religion or fashion. In my opinion as long as people wear their uniform and perform their duties, state has no business to stop them wearing simple things like a cross, scarf etc, it should be a non issue for state.


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## KS

Good move.

keep Europe as Europe and not Eurabia.


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## Audio

Agnostic_Indian said:


> people doesn't need to sacrifice things like this for country to become secular, that's the matter of state, a minister wearing a cross, Jews cap can still propose secular laws for the state. what people wears is neither a concern of state nor dose it affect it's secular credentials, unless it is vulgar or it endanger security. somebody seeing someone else wearing his religious symbol on his sleeves is not hurting his sentiment or right, he can't ask other one to not wear anything's because he doesn't like the others religion or fashion. In my opinion as long as people wear their uniform and perform their duties, state has no business to stop them wearing simple things like a cross, scarf etc, it should be a non issue for state.



It conveys the wrong message at the minimum and it can go out of hand with religious groups demanding more and more consideration being taken care to accomodate them (their minority values) at the maximum.

Specifically on this:



> In my opinion as long as people wear their uniform and perform their duties, state has no business to stop them wearing simple things like a cross, scarf etc, it should be a non issue for state.



State is their employer and if the state does not want to be represented by people wearing various religions "tokens" it is their right to demand it. Performing duties has nothing to do with it.


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## KS

@Audio - would this affect Sikhs as well ?


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## Audio

KS said:


> @Audio - would this affect Sikhs as well ?



If it wouldn't it would be discriminatory. Though that is only my opinion and i do not know French law, but if i would bet on it i would go for that yes, it applies to Sikhs as well.

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## KS

Audio said:


> If it wouldn't it would be discriminatory. Though that is only my opinion and i do not know French law, but if i would bet on it i would go for that yes, it applies to Sikhs as well.



Well unfortunate if true...then Amrithdari Sikhs wont be able to work in public places.


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## Agnostic_Indian

Audio said:


> It conveys the wrong message at the minimum and it can go out of hand with religious groups demanding more and more consideration being taken care to accomodate them (their minority values) at the maximum.
> 
> Specifically on this:
> 
> 
> 
> State is their employer and if the state does not want to be represented by people wearing various religions "tokens" it is their right to demand it. Performing duties has nothing to do with it.



Any demands from minorities should be decided according to it's merit, nothing less nothing more. 
if a govt employ keeps a photo, statue of any god in the govt office which is a public property then it is wrong, but unlike office his own body, mind is not a public property, he is hired for a job, he is a representative of govt but he has an existence, identity of his own at the same time, he has his personal, religious freedom with in the limits of that institutions rules, but the rules should be fair and it should not encroach one's fundamental rights.


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## Audio

KS said:


> Well unfortunate if true...then Amrithdari Sikhs wont be able to work in public places.



All they would in theory have to do is let go of the turban at the workplace and maybe trim the beard a little.



Agnostic_Indian said:


> Any demands from minorities should be decided according to it's merit, nothing less nothing more.
> if a govt employ keeps a photo, statue of any god in the govt office which is a public property then it is wrong, but unlike office his own body, mind is not a public property, he is hired for a job, he is a representative of govt but he has an existence, identity of his own at the same time, he has his personal, religious freedom with in the limits of that institutions rules, but the rules should be fair and it should not encroach one's fundamental rights.



Like i said before, if the said person feels the gov. encroaching on his freedoms he is free to go work elsewhere. 
If you cannot understand that while you work, you give up a lot of you (i'd like a coffee break every hour but cant have one, despite the fact work would not suffer-see how that is encroaching on my personal freedom?-just a really obscure example of proving my point) for the sake of the paycheck i cannot help you and we are basically done here.


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## Developereo

Why does the "secular" State force non-Christians to adjust their work schedule according to Christian sensibilities?

France Official Holidays


New Year's Day
Good Friday
Easter Monday
Labor Day
Ascension (l'Ascencion)
WWII Victory Day
Bastille Day (Fête nationale)
Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Assomption)
All Saints Day (La Toussaint)
Armistice Day (Jour d'armistice)
Christmas Day (Noël)
2nd Day of Christmas (in Alsace and Lorraine only)

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## Dubious

KS said:


> Good move.
> 
> *keep Europe as Europe* and not Eurabia.



@KS I am not sure if you know but head veil is common in elderly EUROPEAN ladies....

It is the NEW THOUGHT which is wanting this change....

Plus keep Europe as Europe = FREEDOM OF RELIGION!! Which they are not keeping hence, France is not even being Europe anymore...Just some scared state wanting attention!


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## Developereo

Agnostic_Indian said:


> *French law bars state employees from wearing prominent religious symbols such as Muslim headscarves, Jewish skullcaps or large Christian crosses in public schools, welfare offices or other government facilities.*



What is the objective definition of "prominent"?

If I have good eyesight and can see a cross necklace, am I allowed to feel "offended" and complain?

If "secular" France wants to bar religious symbols, just say religious symbols. Why add weasel words like "prominent" or "conspicuous" to exempt traditional Christian symbols such as cross necklaces?


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## Audio

Developereo said:


> Why does the "secular" State force non-Christians to adjust their work schedule according to Christian sensibilities?
> 
> France Official Holidays
> 
> 
> New Year's Day
> Good Friday
> Easter Monday
> Labor Day
> Ascension (l'Ascencion)
> WWII Victory Day
> Bastille Day (Fête nationale)
> Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Assomption)
> All Saints Day (La Toussaint)
> Armistice Day (Jour d'armistice)
> Christmas Day (Noël)
> 2nd Day of Christmas (in Alsace and Lorraine only)



Probably the same reason Muslim are free of work on Eid.....it just isn't official. In exchange they get to work in businesses that need to be open on Christmas, New Year's day etc....



Developereo said:


> What is the objective definition of "prominent"?
> 
> If I have good eyesight and can see a cross necklace, am I allowed to feel "offended" and complain?



Yes, you are. And if and when you do, there wont be an angry mob coming after you.


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## Agnostic_Indian

Developereo said:


> What is the objective definition of "prominent"?
> 
> If I have good eyesight and can see a cross necklace, am I allowed to feel "offended" and complain?



here the meaning I think is famous, widely known etc not about projection or visibility.

prom·i·nent (pr m -n nt)
adj.
1. Projecting outward or upward from
a line or surface; protuberant.
2. Immediately noticeable;
conspicuous. See Synonyms at
noticeable .
3. Widely known; eminent.


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## Beerbal

Developereo said:


> Why does the "secular" State force non-Christians to adjust their work schedule according to Christian sensibilities?
> 
> France Official Holidays
> 
> 
> New Year's Day
> Good Friday
> Easter Monday
> Labor Day
> Ascension (l'Ascencion)
> WWII Victory Day
> Bastille Day (Fête nationale)
> Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Assomption)
> All Saints Day (La Toussaint)
> Armistice Day (Jour d'armistice)
> Christmas Day (Noël)
> 2nd Day of Christmas (in Alsace and Lorraine only)





you come and see India, we have more holidays than working days. This is happen when goverment play in hand of so called minority (which is not minority at all according to UN resolutions)


----------



## Developereo

Audio said:


> Probably the same reason Muslim are free of work on Eid.....it just isn't official. In exchange they get to work in businesses that need to be open on Christmas, New Year's day etc....



Not the same thing. A Muslim has to advertise that (s)he is Muslim in order to get the day off, and a private employer is free to refuse.

That rule does not apply to observant Christians. The secular state discriminates in favor of Christians by making their holy days as official holidays.



Audio said:


> Yes, you are. And if and when you do, there wont be an angry mob coming after you.



No, I can't. The Minister decides what is "ostentatious" and what isn't.


French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_the Minister of Education will issue circulaires, or instructions for its services; it seems that large crosses, full hijabs or yarmulkes would be banned, while small symbols such as small Stars of David or crosses in pendants would not be;_



Agnostic_Indian said:


> here the meaning I think is famous, widely known etc not about projection or visibility.
> 
> prom·i·nent (pr m -n nt)
> adj.
> 1. Projecting outward or upward from
> a line or surface; protuberant.
> 2. Immediately noticeable;
> conspicuous. See Synonyms at
> noticeable .
> 3. Widely known; eminent.



What I wrote above.

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## LaBong

I think the ban is on full face veil, so unless Sikhs invent full face turban it's not going to effect them. 


Hijab also exempt of the ban I think.


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## Developereo

Beerbal said:


> you come and see India, we have more holidays than working days. This is happen when goverment play in hand of so called minority (which is not minority at all according to UN resolutions)



The issue is not about the number of holidays, but the fact that the "secular" state has decided one religion's holy days must be acknowledged by everyone else.

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## Audio

Developereo said:


> Not the same thing. A Muslim has to advertise that (s)he is Muslim in order to get the day off, and a private employer is free to refuse.
> 
> That rule does not apply to observant Christians. The secular state discriminates in favor of Christians by making their holy days as official holidays.



Maybe, just maybe because those holidays have been present for hundreds of years? Removing a work free day from the list of holidays surely will not do wonders for the party that implemented it.





Developereo said:


> No, I can't. The Minister decides what is "ostentatious" and what isn't.
> 
> 
> French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> _the Minister of Education will issue circulaires, or instructions for its services; it seems that large crosses, full hijabs or yarmulkes would be banned, while small symbols such as small Stars of David or crosses in pendants would not be;_



How nice of you to go to this trouble and finding the law, now i'm certain it is written in a good way. 
Namely, a pious Muslim (or adherent of any religion) can get around it by wearing a similar sized crescent somewhere on him, most likely around the neck too, so it is visible to all, but not intrusive that one looks at it the first instant he walks into some room-like virgin Mary portraits, burqas, hijabs, giant crosses on walls, giant turbans etc....

I'm surprised you haven't caught on to this loophole, although maybe you did, but straws were too attractive. Who knows....


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## 474474

Audio said:


> Does the concept of a secular country which is represented by people with excessive religious symbols sound ok to you?
> If a certain person feels these requirements encroach on him or her he is welcome to find another job. That is his freedom as well.
> 
> And what about my freedom of not wanting to see symbols of backwardness when taking care of various bureaucratic processes which are stressful as is.



To me small crosses represent that, now will you take yours off (assuming we are of the same country)?


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## 474474

Wright said:


> Its not like muslims flock to France anyway when the GCC is experiancing an economic boom.



Muslims=immigrants?


----------



## Audio

474474 said:


> To me small crosses represent that, now will you take yours off (assuming we are of the same country)?



Small religious items and tokens are allowed as per the law quoted above. You are free to leave the country if it is a problem. I can live with small crosses, crescents etc....


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## 474474

Audio said:


> Small religious items and tokens are allowed as per the law quoted above. You are free to leave the country if it is a problem. I can live with small crosses, crescents etc....



Still backwards so waht if small


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## Audio

474474 said:


> Still backwards so waht if small



Well, if i would be making the law, _all_ of it would have to go when doing government work. Sadly i don't, but at least i have the satisfaction of not seeing it on a large scale.

I sort of feel you are flame baiting me here with your nice one liners filled with wisdom. So, we will be finishing this debate as i am not keen to get an infraction. Thanks.


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## Agnostic_Indian

@Developereo @Audio
Then the same question is relevant "how large is large for a religious symbol?
I do think dress codes of every institution must be maintained,but on the same time individual freedom must be protected. 

IMO in jobs where uniform, visual appeal is very important there it should be given importance and priority. there you can't argue for a burqa, beard etc 

example -army, police, restaurant service, receptionist, where ever discipline , a theme, custom based dressing, appearance is necessary. 
In jobs where dress code s still there but not as important as in the first type of jobs which I mentioned. 
govt officers or any office which only demands executive, decent dressing, etc where relaxed dress codes are there. 

so taking position in this regard should be on case by case basis, taking a constant position for or against dressing freedom is difficult and would be wrong.


----------



## 474474

Audio said:


> Well, if i would be making the law, _all_ of it would have to go when doing government work. Sadly i don't, but at least i have the satisfaction of not seeing it on a large scale.
> 
> I sort of feel you are flame baiting me here with your nice one liners filled with wisdom. So, we will be finishing this debate as i am not keen to get an infraction. Thanks.



Plus I dont have much time so yea


----------



## KS

Audio said:


> All they would in theory have to do is let go of the turban at the workplace and maybe trim the beard a little..



I'm not sure about that. Kesh (untrimmed hair) is one of the 5 integral 'K's of Sikhism.

Lets see how it turns out.



Talon said:


> @KS I am not sure if you know but head veil is common in elderly EUROPEAN ladies....
> 
> It is the NEW THOUGHT which is wanting this change....
> 
> Plus keep Europe as Europe = FREEDOM OF RELIGION!! Which they are not keeping hence, France is not even being Europe anymore...Just some scared state wanting attention!



Europe is Christian land. Period. If they dont like to see hijabis moving around then its their prerogative. And in many cases the girls are forced to wear hijab. I know many girls in my school who come with a hijab, remove it in school and when going home again start wearing it. What use is tat ?


----------



## angeldude13

this was expected from a white country.
i remember them aussies portraying andrew symonds as a hindu deity hanuman.
but there was no reply from india because if anybody had portrayed harbhajan singh as christian deity jesus he would have been persecuted by indian the laws.


----------



## bangbros

Thorough Pro said:


> but they don't force you to uncover yourself. Driving is a different issue altogether. btw before talking about Saudis take a look inside your own country and culture, where widows are forced against their will to wear only specific dress for the rest of their lives and forced not to wear jewlery, etc. and I am talking about real life not bollywood movies.


this is nothing compared to nonmuslims treated in muslims world


----------



## Developereo

Agnostic_Indian said:


> Then the same question is relevant "how large is large for a religious symbol?



The whole point of adding a subjective "ostentatious" to the law is add a loophole for traditional Christian symbols, i.e. cross pendants, while outlawing traditional Muslim, Jewish, Sikh symbols, i.e. headscarf, turban, yarmulka.

Like I wrote, if you want to disallow religious symbols, just say so. What add a loophole?

The secular French wanted to discriminate in favor of Christians, while maintaining the fiction of a secular law.


----------



## ExtraOdinary

The french are kinda bringing a bad name to secularism. Secularism stands for tolerance.


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## jbond197

ExtraOdinary said:


> The french are kinda bringing a bad name to secularism. Secularism stands for tolerance.



Security concerns weighs heavy over everything. The day these Burqa clad "Gentlemen"'s stop creating security threats to the common people's life, there will be no more bans of Burqas etc etc..


----------



## narcon

Let us respect the laws of each country where we are given the abode. Its about laws. Just as it is in Saudi Arabia which has some clothing restrictions even for men.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Developereo said:


> The whole point of adding a subjective "ostentatious" to the law is add a loophole for traditional Christian symbols, i.e. cross pendants, while outlawing traditional Muslim, Jewish, Sikh symbols, i.e. headscarf, turban, yarmulka.
> 
> Like I wrote, if you want to disallow religious symbols, just say so. What add a loophole?
> 
> The secular French wanted to discriminate in favor of Christians, while maintaining the fiction of a secular law.



I have different opinion in this regard. 

French ban of full face cover is done sighting two reasons, one is protection of culture, dignity of women etc, which I don't think is a good excuse. 
second one is security reasons and i support the ban and reason given. 
head scarf, hijab is what mandatory for Muslim women, and it's widely used by them but Christian women, especially nuns also use it to cover the head so banning or allowing it is not targeted to Muslims alone. 
in general I oppose banning any religious symbols or fashion other than full face cover..but again it could vary according to the merit of each case like I said earlier. 

read this link where court sighting security reasons also as one of the reasons to uphold the ban. 






UM.SiteMaker: Message

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## Developereo

Agnostic_Indian said:


> French ban of full face cover is done sighting two reasons, one is protection of culture, dignity of women etc, which I don't think is a good excuse.
> second one is security reasons and i support the ban and reason given.



I agree with you on both these points and I don't have any issue with the burqa ban for security reasons. Personal freedoms are ALWAYS subservient to society's security concerns.

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## Audio

Developereo said:


> The whole point of adding a subjective "ostentatious" to the law is add a loophole for traditional Christian symbols, i.e. cross pendants, while outlawing traditional Muslim, Jewish, Sikh symbols, i.e. headscarf, turban, yarmulka.
> 
> Like I wrote, if you want to disallow religious symbols, just say so. What add a loophole?
> 
> The secular French wanted to discriminate in favor of Christians, while maintaining the fiction of a secular law.





Audio said:


> There is also the thing of when offering the finger and the hand gets taken it is best to retract that finger.


 @Agnostic_Indian 

See, here is a prime example of finger being offered and yet the hand is grabbed. Law gives provisions for small tokens of religion like crosses, crescents, stars of David etc....but the Muslim wants more then equality.

If this is given to him in 5 years he will demand as full burqa in government offices citing who knows what religious concern he might have. It's so transparent it makes one sick.

Good going, France.


----------



## Developereo

Audio said:


> @Agnostic_Indian
> 
> See, here is a prime example of finger being offered and yet the hand is grabbed. Law gives provisions for small tokens of religion like crosses, crescents, stars of David etc....but the Muslim wants more then equality.
> 
> If this is given to him in 5 years he will demand as full burqa in government offices citing who knows what religious concern he might have. It's so transparent it makes one sick.



Demanding that people hold true to their claims of equal rights and secularism is not about finger or hand. It's about holding people accountable for their claims.

The French legal system doesn't say "Muslim citizens are second class citizens and will be granted a finger at the mercy of the majority. It says that all citizens are equal before the law and can expect equal treatment -- no favoritism based on religion."

I have absolutely no issue if France declares itself a Christian state and passes laws favoring Christians. But the current hypocrisy bears highlighting.


----------



## Pboy

Their country,

Their law.

As long as it doesnt go overboard, its okay.


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## Audio

Developereo said:


> Demanding that people hold true to their claims of equal rights and secularism is not about finger or hand. It's about holding people accountable for their claims.
> 
> The French legal system doesn't say "Muslim citizens are second class citizens and will be granted a finger at the mercy of the majority. It says that all citizens are equal before the law and can expect equal treatment -- no favoritism based on religion."





Equality is guaranteed by law, you jus't dont want to see it....straws and all that.


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

Cloakedvessel said:


> Your comparisons are false equivalences. When calling or chatting of course you don't see each others face, that is what we expect to be. The fundamental difference is that each side is in the same situation. There is the case of evenness, which is absent when I am in the opposite position of a person wearing a burqa. It's an unequal level of communication, which is not reproduced in telephonic communications or during a debate on a forum such as this.



I was not making any comparison. you said ban on veil is must for communication and i just said that there is something called verbal communication 

I was saying that communication can be done without body language or facial expression which no doubt are important when you have communication with someone close to you i.e your relative, friends etc but body language or face expression are less important when you deal or communicate with strangers

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## Dubious

Audio said:


> Equality is guaranteed by law, you jus't dont want to see it....straws and all that.



What sort of equality? For you but you are oppressing my religion and it is not equal on my part!


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## Raja.Pakistani

Agnostic_Indian said:


> France is over doing things in the name of secularism and equality, I mean one can understand banning of full face cover(security issues ),
> .



You are right. I personally think veil is cultural practice more than religious but i don't see any security problems in UK because of veil or because of some extra piece of clothes

as i said before there is not a single incident in Europe where Burqa was used for any crime or any sort of terrorism because they have certain strict laws and rules there to prevent crimes.

so what security issues was there in France before this ban?


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## Raja.Pakistani

Audio said:


> Equality is guaranteed by law, you jus't dont want to see it....straws and all that.



equality : if a woman is free to flash her water melon in public then she should also be free to cover herself no matter if it make us nervous or uncomfortable 

or you also having french sharia in France just like Taliban..the only difference may be one was forcing women to wear it while french Sharia was forcing them to take it off. It's all about denial of personal choices


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## Agnostic_Indian

Raja.Pakistani said:


> You are right. I personally think veil is cultural practice more than religious but i don't see any security problems in UK because of veil or because of some extra piece of clothes
> 
> as i said before there is not a single incident in Europe where Burqa was used for any crime or any sort of terrorism because they have certain strict laws and rules there to prevent crimes.
> 
> so what security issues was there in France before this ban?



you can't say it never happened,anti social elements would have been using it for smuggling,prostitution, robbery etc 


Burqa-clad Criminals Worry US Muslims | islam.ru


Two burqa-clad robbers hold up post office near Paris - FRANCE - FRANCE 24


http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...n-unprovoked-attack-in-london/comment-page-1/



there are a few incidents which are reported, there could be many such small incidents which were not reported, there could be many more where police didn't even find out. any way commonsense says hiding face is not good for public safety, it will only give a loophole to anti social elements, so prevention is better than cure.


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## Shatterpoint

Awesome news and I for one am 200% behind the new laws, these Muslims come to our country and live off us like leaches and then try and force their **** down our throat, and then one day wake up and want to blow us up, if they don't like it then they can go back to their **** hole countries where they came from, very simple


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## Raja.Pakistani

Agnostic_Indian said:


> you can't say it never happened,anti social elements would have been using it for smuggling,prostitution, robbery etc
> 
> Burqa-clad Criminals Worry US Muslims | islam.ru
> 
> 
> Two burqa-clad robbers hold up post office near Paris - FRANCE - FRANCE 24
> 
> 
> UK Sharia developments: Burka clad Muslim throws acid on innocent Victoria Secret worker in unprovoked hate-crime attack in London |
> 
> 
> there are a few incidents which are reported, there could be many such small incidents which were not reported, there could be many more where police didn't even find out. any way commonsense says hiding face is not good for public safety, it will only give a loophole to anti social elements, so prevention is better than cure.




You tried hard to bring these news from sources never heard before but its wrong to assume that those who wear veil don't go through security checks at airport or don't keep any identification with them or police cannot ask for any identification or cannot stop them for any safety /security concerns 

You don't need to hide face for prostitution which is legal in Europe and also smuggling drugs can be stop by having strong security checks at air port and sea ports. If it was easy to commit these crimes simply by using veil then every criminal would have done it againa nd again in countries like saudia arabia but again question is people can also hide explosive stuffs under their coat or jacket so should we also ban long coat or jacket for safety of public..why only hiding face is threat for public?

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## Raja.Pakistani

Shatterpoint said:


> Awesome news and I for one am 200% behind the new laws, these Muslims come to our country and live off us like leaches and then try and force their **** down our throat, and then one day wake up and want to blow us up, if they don't like it then they can go back to their **** hole countries where they came from, very simple



I think you are drunk 

Who forced religion/culture down to your throat or who forced your gf to wear veil?

white french women are free to be semi naked on streets and others are also free to dress as they wish . French is nationality and there are many french Muslims out there 

yea those who cannot stand again hate and bigotry they should leave the country but people visit these countries for religious/cultural freedom in these countries because most of these countries claim to be multicultural society but some bigots like you feel insecure with diversity

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## Agnostic_Indian

Raja.Pakistani said:


> You tried hard to bring these news from sources never heard before but its wrong to assume that those who wear veil don't go through security checks at airport or don't keep any identification with them or police cannot ask for any identification or cannot stop them for any safety /security concerns
> 
> You don't need to hide face for prostitution which is legal in Europe and also smuggling drugs can be stop by having strong security checks at air port and sea ports. If it was easy to commit these crimes simply by using veil then every criminal would have done it againa nd again in countries like saudia arabia but again question is people can also hide explosive stuffs under their coat or jacket so should we also ban long coat or jacket for safety of public..why only hiding face is threat for public?


hiding face is a threat, because it gives the anti social the advantage of anonymity, in my state there is rule which prevents using window tint for vehicles, because of the same reason.
one could ask can't the police check the vehicles but that is not practical all the time, same is the case here, police can't go behind people to check the faces, banning full face cover saves lot of work for police,and people also recognise who is who and that also helps to public safety, in case something wrong happens CCTV Cameras can be checked to identify people if their face is not covered. 
now can a long coat be used to hide explosives, yes and if required that also can be banned, but it's a call which is to be made according to the threat perception,practicality, inconvenience caused to people, and wisdom of law makers, you can't argue that it's a hypocrisy that they didn't ban big coats but only face cover.

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## sur

Canada banned it at citizenship ceremonies... only. & I agree with it. It should be banned where-ever identification is important.

But am against banning *head*-scarf in France... not the face cover.

*Covering face is banned in Hajj - THE MOST religious of all holy islamic rituals...*

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http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...orld-nudity-niqab-illusion-2.html#post4027769

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http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...orld-nudity-niqab-illusion-2.html#post4027839

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## Audio

Raja.Pakistani said:


> equality : if a woman is free to flash her water melon in public then she should also be free to cover herself no matter if it make us nervous or uncomfortable
> 
> or you also having french sharia in France just like Taliban..the only difference may be one was forcing women to wear it while french Sharia was forcing them to take it off. It's all about denial of personal choices



Except nudity is not allowed in public, only in specially designated beach areas. You get a fine at least and probably a mandatory visit to the psychiatrist if you get caught a few times.
As for the second part....



Talon said:


> What sort of equality? For you but you are oppressing my religion and it is not equal on my part!



You can wear small items, just like everyone else. That equality.


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## Dubious

Audio said:


> You can wear small items, just like everyone else. That equality.


 @Audio I wear full clothing, headscarf I am yet to meet anyone say anything to me!


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## Audio

Talon said:


> @Audio I wear full clothing, headscarf I am yet to meet anyone say anything to me!



Are you representative of the French government or do you work in a gov. position in France? If not....not sure why we are having this conversation, small items and equality remark i made were in direct connection to French law.

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## Dubious

Audio said:


> Are you representative of the French government or do you work in a gov. position in France? If not....not sure why we are having this conversation, small items and equality remark i made were in direct connection to French law.


 @Audio I am not even talking about France...They are twisted and hypocrites! I am talking about ALL THE EU countries I have visited! France thinks behaving like this it is going to get attention...Paranoid people only behave in such a way! The rest of EU has no prob what so ever with face veil...I mean even in UK and USA they have people walking in face veil....EQUAL RIGHTS TO PRACTICE RELIGION ....THAT is freedom which the countries are proud of...Not oppressing some religion and calling themselves fathers of freedom!

If that is the case France = Mullahs of Asia

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## ZYXW

Audio said:


> Are you representative of the French government or do you work in a gov. position in France? If not....not sure why we are having this conversation, small items and equality remark i made were in direct connection to French law.



Funny bc I had to represent France at my Model UN conference last year. Before that I never understood why France had this, but then when I HAD to justify it, it started making more sense. So the ideology behind it is that religion is kept to yourself.....so it's like people don't look at you as muslim, but rather as french first.....nationalism and unity...that's what I got out of it when I looked it up and could see the reasoning.

BUT....I believe in free will....no government has the right to do something like this.....the government should have no right to tell its people what they can wear and what they can't. But then again, if the french ppl want it, so be it; had this been in the US, everyone would have made sure hell breaks loose and the law is changed immediately....just my opinion!! Shorter cloths doesn't mean more freedom!

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## QMAN

Talon said:


> @Audio I am not even talking about France...They are twisted and hypocrites! I am talking about ALL THE EU countries I have visited! France thinks behaving like this it is going to get attention...Paranoid people only behave in such a way! The rest of EU has no prob what so ever with face veil...I mean even in UK and USA they have people walking in face veil....EQUAL RIGHTS TO PRACTICE RELIGION ....THAT is freedom which the countries are proud of...Not oppressing some religion and calling themselves fathers of freedom!
> 
> If that is the case France = Mullahs of Asia




All EU , US , west countries have problem with Vail , they debate always . They have problem with Islam itself , it's only and most radicalized community in Europe . Islam creating many problems in Europe , German Chancellor said "Multiculturalism failed in Germany " as well as British PM. 

Denmark Islamic problem is well known , Norway , Belgium all are facing problem.

Organization Like EDL born in UK only to oppose "Islam" , SIOA etc in USA .

Muslim start fighting with local community where they go create "no go areas" , hate-trade for non-Muslims.........etc

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## Audio

Talon said:


> @Audio I am not even talking about France...They are twisted and hypocrites! I am talking about ALL THE EU countries I have visited! France thinks behaving like this it is going to get attention...Paranoid people only behave in such a way! The rest of EU has no prob what so ever with face veil...I mean even in UK and USA they have people walking in face veil....EQUAL RIGHTS TO PRACTICE RELIGION ....THAT is freedom which the countries are proud of...Not oppressing some religion and calling themselves fathers of freedom!
> 
> If that is the case France = Mullahs of Asia



See, here's the deal, the state has higher authority then religion. Probably one of the definitions of a secular state. And it does not matter if individuals think this takes away from their freedoms.

It is not only France, iirc Belgium already has a ban on veils, and the Nederlands gov. is considering it if they remain in power after election.

Personally, i think you are making a big deal out of it. Women can wear the scarf and display their modesty. If they cannot make a simple concession like that.....what im trying to say is, there is no relationship where one side only takes and not gives anything. No working relationship anyhow.



ZYXW said:


> BUT....I believe in free will....no government has the right to do something like this.....the government should have no right to tell its people what they can wear and what they can't. But then again, if the french ppl want it, so be it; had this been in the US, everyone would have made sure hell breaks loose and the law is changed immediately....just my opinion!! Shorter cloths doesn't mean more freedom!



Look it's pretty simple, every entity has the right to choose who or what represents them. And it has freedoms of it's own. If gov. of France decides women in burqa aren't apropriate to send on UN conferences what can you do about it? Don't they have a free choice of who to send?
Besides, if any Muslim feels this encroaches on his freedom, he is free to decline the invite to whatever venue they might have sent him/her. Similarly, they would probably not have sent a person with "short cloths".

Freedom is a broad term not fully understood by many, namely most are blissfully ignorant of the fact that their freedom ends where someone else's begins. People think freedom is a one way street, a gravy train that keeps on giving. It's not.

Hope this explains it OK. I'm actually not in the mood to have a religious conversation and a mountain pile of infractions, so.....there's a good chance i wont comment on this anymore.

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## Vinod2070

It is a symbolic step in the right direction.

It is not against any religion, just trying to uphold the country's cultural values of dignity of women.


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## Amaa'n

QMAN said:


> All EU , US , west countries have problem with Vail , they debate always . They have problem with Islam itself , it's only and most radicalized community in Europe . Islam creating many problems in Europe , German Chancellor said "Multiculturalism failed in Germany " as well as British PM.
> 
> Denmark Islamic problem is well known , Norway , Belgium all are facing problem.
> 
> Organization Like EDL born in UK only to oppose "Islam" , SIOA etc in USA .
> 
> Muslim start fighting with local community where they go create "no go areas" , hate-trade for non-Muslims.........etc



Ahhh! My friend from u.k, hows the weatherup there? Mind me asking which city you from?

I cant say much about other countries, but u .k is the one i can talk about, do you know what type/kind of people are in EDL? What its the strength of this party? The party has no knowledge on any religion, so please dont bring it up here

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## QMAN

balixd said:


> Ahhh! My friend from u.k, hows the weatherup there? Mind me asking which city you from?
> 
> I cant say much about other countries, but u .k is the one i can talk about, do you know what type/kind of people are in EDL? What its the strength of this pay? The party has no knowledge on any religion, so please say it here



London .


All Types of People EDL have , About Religion you should watch their leader debating. 

like they use

strong Point-- Highest number of sex crime in UK done by small Muslim minority particularity child sex crime , with Huge contribution from Pakistani in recent years.


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## Amaa'n

QMAN said:


> London .
> 
> 
> All Types of People EDL have , About Religion you should watch their leader debating.
> 
> like they use
> 
> strong Point-- Highest number of sex crime in UK done by small Muslim minority particularity child sex crime , with Huge contribution from Pakistani in recent years.



Youtube is actually banned here in Pakistan so i cant watch the debates, you mind repharising their points for me here

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## ZYXW

Audio said:


> See, here's the deal, the state has higher authority then religion. Probably one of the definitions of a secular state. And it does not matter if individuals think this takes away from their freedoms.
> 
> It is not only France, iirc Belgium already has a ban on veils, and the Nederlands gov. is considering it if they remain in power after election.
> 
> Personally, i think you are making a big deal out of it. Women can wear the scarf and display their modesty. If they cannot make a simple concession like that.....what im trying to say is, there is no relationship where one side only takes and not gives anything. No working relationship anyhow.
> 
> 
> 
> Look it's pretty simple, every entity has the right to choose who or what represents them. And it has freedoms of it's own. If gov. of France decides women in burqa aren't apropriate to send on UN conferences what can you do about it? Don't they have a free choice of who to send?
> Besides, if any Muslim feels this encroaches on his freedom, he is free to decline the invite to whatever venue they might have sent him/her. Similarly, they would probably not have sent a person with "short cloths".
> 
> Freedom is a broad term not fully understood by many, namely most are blissfully ignorant of the fact that their freedom ends where someone else's begins. People think freedom is a one way street, a gravy train that keeps on giving. It's not.
> 
> Hope this explains it OK. I'm actually not in the mood to have a religious conversation and a mountain pile of infractions, so.....there's a good chance i wont comment on this anymore.



Not about religion, it's about the extent to which a government has power over its people. But nah dw, I get what you're saying. I mean if the french people are okay with this much government involvement...it's cool, just not something I politically would be okay with ya noe.... lol!

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## Amaa'n

I am not sure, since I never followed this issue into depth, is this ban for everyone in the country or just muslim women?
if the ban is on covering the face rather its a hoody, a scarf, or a balaclava, than French are in there right to ban veil.
Look at this way, some organizations have this policy on women wearing in-appropriate clothing, like too short skirts, revealing clothing, or as @Audio mentioned it is not allowed for anyone to walk in a public place without any clothing (nudity), Like in UAE, it is a crime to walk in public place wearing very few clothing items. In the same way French are in there right to ban veil. given the law and order situation. However,please do confirm, this law should be for everyone in the country and not just a single community


ZYXW said:


> Not about religion, it's about the extent to which a government has power over its people. But nah dw, I get what you're saying. I mean if the french people are okay with this much government involvement...it's cool, just not something I politically would be okay with ya noe.... lol!

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## ZYXW

balixd said:


> I am not sure, since I never followed this issue into depth, is this ban for everyone in the country or just muslim women?
> if the ban is on covering the face rather its a hoody, a scarf, or a balaclava, than French are in there right to ban veil.
> Look at this way, some organizations have this policy on women wearing in-appropriate clothing, like too short skirts, revealing clothing, or as @Audio mentioned it is not allowed for anyone to walk in a public place without any clothing (nudity), Like in UAE, it is a crime to walk in public place wearing very few clothing items. In the same way French are in there right to ban veil. given the law and order situation. However,please do confirm, this law should be for everyone in the country and not just a single community



Just bans religious symbols....
_The law does not mention any particular symbol, and thus bans all Christian (veil, signs), Muslim (veil, signs), Sikh (turban, signs) Jewish and other minor religions' signs.[1] But it is considered by many to specifically target the wearing of headscarves (a khimar, considered by most Muslims to be an obligatory article of faith as part of hijab ["modesty"]) by Muslim schoolgirls. For this reason, it is occasionally referred to as the French headscarf ban in the foreign press._

LOL I completely understand. I had to look into for a while before I understood it. You have to realize...France is not very religious so I could have seen this coming ya noe....
that's why I was against it bc of the amount of government involvement, not necessarily religion!

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## Amaa'n

ZYXW said:


> Just bans religious symbols....
> *The law does not mention any particular symbol, and thus bans all Christian (veil, signs), Muslim (veil, signs), Sikh (turban, signs) Jewish and other minor religions' signs.[1] But it is considered by many to specifically target the wearing of headscarves (a khimar, considered by most Muslims to be an obligatory article of faith as part of hijab ["modesty"]) by Muslim schoolgirls. For this reason, it is occasionally referred to as the French headscarf ban in the foreign press.*
> 
> LOL I completely understand. I had to look into for a while before I understood it. You have to realize...France is not very religious so I could have seen this coming ya noe....
> that's why I was against it bc of the amount of government involvement, not necessarily religion!


that explains it all, thanks for sharing it. I hope they are actually implementing it. Sometime one has to follow the policy/law set by the ones with Authority.

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## Developereo

ZYXW said:


> Just bans religious symbols....
> _The law does not mention any particular symbol, and thus bans all Christian (veil, signs), Muslim (veil, signs), Sikh (turban, signs) Jewish and other minor religions' signs.[1] But it is considered by many to specifically target the wearing of headscarves (a khimar, considered by most Muslims to be an obligatory article of faith as part of hijab ["modesty"]) by Muslim schoolgirls. For this reason, it is occasionally referred to as the French headscarf ban in the foreign press._
> 
> LOL I completely understand. I had to look into for a while before I understood it. You have to realize...France is not very religious so I could have seen this coming ya noe....
> that's why I was against it bc of the amount of government involvement, not necessarily religion!



I guess you didn't look very hard.

French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_it seems that large crosses, full hijabs or yarmulkes would be banned, while small symbols such as small Stars of David or crosses in pendants would not be;_

The law is specifically worded to allow traditional Christian symbols (cross pendants) while outlawing religious symbols for other religions.

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## ZYXW

Developereo said:


> I guess you didn't look very hard.
> 
> French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> _it seems that large crosses, full hijabs or yarmulkes would be banned, while small symbols such as small Stars of David or crosses in pendants would not be;_
> 
> 
> The law is specifically worded to allow traditional Christian symbols (cross pendants) while outlawing religious symbols for other religions.



_Schools funded totally or in part by the national and local governments by law must not force students into religious education; they should remain equally accessible to children of any, or no, faith. For example, even though a majority of the population nominally professes Catholicism (although far fewer regularly practice Catholicism),[6] government-operated French schools have no communal prayers, religious assemblies, or Christian crosses on the walls. The Constitution of France says that France is a laïque (roughly, secular) Republic._

However, thanks for pointing it out. I will try and look at it through a more credible source, but I disagree with that. France seems to be a very non religious country as a whole so I don't know how much, if any, preference it would give to one religious over another.


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## Developereo

ZYXW said:


> However, thanks for pointing it out. I will try and look at it through a more credible source, but I disagree with that. France seems to be a very non religious country as a whole so I don't know how much, if any, preference it would give to one religious over another.



Please read the text of the actual French law.
LOI n° 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics | Legifrance

_Dans les écoles, les collèges et les lycées publics, le port de signes ou tenues par lesquels les élèves manifestent *ostensiblement* une appartenance religieuse est interdit._

As I explained several times, if France wanted to bar religious symbols, they could have said so. Instead, they added the weasel word 'ostensiblement' to the law creating a loophole allowing tradition cross pendants, while barring traditional headscarves.


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## Dubious

QMAN said:


> All EU , US , west countries have problem with Vail , they debate always . They have problem with Islam itself , it's only and most radicalized community in Europe . Islam creating many problems in Europe , German Chancellor said "Multiculturalism failed in Germany " as well as British PM.
> 
> *Denmark Islamic problem is well known * , Norway , Belgium all are facing problem.




Denmark initiated their own war by making FREEDOM of expression with no boundries...so now why are they worried about FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS EXPRESSIONS?

Norway we have @Pboy to help expalin whatever you want to know...Belgium is not facing any problem worth highlighting....



QMAN said:


> Organization Like EDL born in UK only to oppose "Islam" , SIOA etc in USA .


EDL...interesting stuff...Ever heard them talk? Frustrated people....Who are usually high school drop outs...and want desk jobs because they cant get it on their qualification take out stress at others...Just hear ANY ONE of them speak...they sound drunk and are incoherent 99% of the time...


QMAN said:


> Muslim start fighting with local community where they go create "no go areas" , hate-trade for non-Muslims.........etc



No go area was 1-2 isolated cases...not a representative of the whole community...


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## Dubious

Audio said:


> See, here's the deal, the* state has higher authority then religion. *Probably one of the definitions of a secular state. And it *does not matter if individuals* think this takes away from their freedoms.


 @Audio
So democratic is flushed down the drain? Look up the meaning of democratic


> Democracy is a form of government in which *all eligible citizens* have an *equal say* in the decisions that *affect their lives*





Audio said:


> It is not only France, iirc Belgium already has a ban on veils, and the Nederlands gov. is considering it if they remain in power after election.





> There is no evidence that wearing the full veil in public threatens public safety, public order, health, morals, or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others - the only legitimate grounds for interference with fundamental rights, Human Rights Watch said.


Belgium: Muslim Veil Ban Would Violate Rights | Human Rights Watch
Banning Muslim Veil Denies Women a Choice, Too | Human Rights Watch

US report criticises French Islamic veil ban - FRANCE - FRANCE 24




Audio said:


> Personally, i think you are making a big deal out of it. Women can wear the scarf and display their modesty. If they cannot make a simple concession like that.....what im trying to say is, there is no relationship where one side only takes and not gives anything. No working relationship anyhow.
> .



In short on few people Actually support such silly laws...Plus it is against their own freedom to impose such stuff...I have no prob with banning niqab...But Ordering someone to dress or not dress in a certain WHILE DECLARING freedom of religion is a hypocrisy! I am only talking about the hypocrisy!!


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## Dillinger

Talon said:


> Denmark initiated their own war by making FREEDOM of expression with no boundries...so now why are they worried about FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS EXPRESSIONS?
> 
> Norway we have @Pboy to help expalin whatever you want to know...Belgium is not facing any problem worth highlighting....
> 
> 
> EDL...interesting stuff...Ever heard them talk? Frustrated people....Who are usually high school drop outs...and want desk jobs because they cant get it on their qualification take out stress at others...Just hear ANY ONE of them speak...they sound drunk and are incoherent 99% of the time...
> 
> 
> No go area was 1-2 isolated cases...not a representative of the whole community...



Freedom of religious expression does not include stabbing a cartoonist because he happened to "Insult" someone's prophet. That's where the problem started, perhaps that should be understood, laws there aren't meant to "respect religion" but rather to "respect your right to practice any religion"- quite a bit of a difference, no? 

We have lunatics here who'll explode at the slightest insult to a temple, why are your beliefs so important that a slight insult will lead to the death of the offender. Any religious group, Hindu, Muslim or any other which cannot abide by this will eventually face such actions elsewhere too.


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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> Denmark initiated their own war by making FREEDOM of expression with no boundries...so now why are they worried about FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS EXPRESSIONS?
> 
> Norway we have @<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=145755" target="_blank">Pboy</a></u> to help expalin whatever you want to know...*Belgium is not facing any problem worth highlighting....*
> 
> EDL...interesting stuff...Ever heard them talk? Frustrated people....Who are usually high school drop outs...and want desk jobs because they cant get it on their qualification take out stress at others...Just hear ANY ONE of them speak...they sound drunk and are incoherent 99% of the time...
> 
> No go area was 1-2 isolated cases...not a representative of the whole community...



Not really. Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, France, UK. Sweden all have significant issues.

The crime rate (especially the worst, most immoral and violent crimes, rapes, targeting the local women etc.) among Muslims is very high, much higher than any other community.

There are several no go areas.

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## Dubious

Audio said:


> Look it's pretty simple, every entity has the right to choose who or what represents them. And it has freedoms of it's own. *If gov. of France decides women in burqa aren't apropriate to send on UN conferences what can you do about it? Don't they have a free choice of who to send?*
> Besides, if any Muslim feels this encroaches on his freedom, he is free to decline the invite to whatever venue they might have sent him/her. Similarly, they would probably not have sent a person with "short cloths".
> 
> Freedom is a broad term not fully understood by many, namely most are blissfully ignorant of the fact that their freedom ends where someone else's begins. People think freedom is a one way street, a gravy train that keeps on giving. It's not.
> 
> Hope this explains it OK. I'm actually not in the mood to have a religious conversation and a mountain pile of infractions, so.....there's a good chance i wont comment on this anymore.


 @Audio so you support Pakistani govt being ok with what they are doing... 

Well, then you shouldnt call Pakistan backward...We just did what France is doing NOW

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## Argus Panoptes

@Talon I have not followed this thread so please forgive me if this question has been answered before.

If certain countries can ban bikinis for women, then why can't other countries ban facial veils for women too?

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## Dubious

Dillinger said:


> Freedom of religious expression does not include stabbing a cartoonist because he happened to "Insult" someone's prophet. That's where the problem started, perhaps that should be understood, laws there aren't meant to "respect religion" but rather to "respect your right to practice any religion"- quite a bit of a difference, no?
> 
> We have lunatics here who'll explode at the slightest insult to a temple, why are your beliefs so important that a slight insult will lead to the death of the offender. Any religious group, Hindu, Muslim or any other which cannot abide by this will eventually face such actions elsewhere too.


 @Dillinger with freedom comes responsibilities...I do not support the stabbing like i do not support the making of such cartoons...Holocaust is a taboo topic yet it is alright to make fun of ANYOTHER religion? What double standards?


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## Dillinger

Argus Panoptes said:


> @Talon I have not followed this thread so please forgive me if this question has been answered before.
> 
> If certain countries can ban bikinis for women, then why can't other countries ban facial veils for women too?



Different definitions of whats acceptable and whats not, that's about it. Countries adjudicate on these matters based on the sentimentality they hold dear- France doesn't like it- their prerogative. Just as much as it is KSA's prerogative to disallow the public practice of any religion other than Islam.

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## Dubious

Argus Panoptes said:


> @Talon I have not followed this thread so please forgive me if this question has been answered before.
> 
> If certain countries can ban bikinis for women, then why can't other countries ban facial veils for women too?


 @Argus Panoptes then forgive me for asking...Would you allow your wife or sister to use a bikini? Yes or no? If no, why do you want to see another's sister or wife in one? Is you sister some angel that deserves "special" respect while other girls do not? 

Again If you say yes, then go ahead let your wife and sister use what they want...but hear me out, there is something known as moral....and morally it is wrong to wear a bikini around EVERYWHERE....otherwise why are "naughty" stuff or channels allowed in UK only AFTER 10pm (or so I was told) why not when kids are still awake? I could give more examples of things you know but am sorry am not used to talking about such crap...



Vinod2070 said:


> Not really. Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, France, UK. Sweden all have significant issues.
> 
> The crime rate (especially the worst, most immoral and violent crimes, rapes, targeting the local women etc.) among Muslims is very high, much higher than any other community.
> 
> There are several no go areas.


 @Vinod2070 exactly WHAT are Western VALUES?


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## Argus Panoptes

Talon said:


> @Argus Panoptes then forgive me for asking...Would you allow your wife or sister to use a bikini? Yes or no? If no, why do you want to see another's sister or wife in one? Is you sister some angel that deserves "special" respect while other girls do not?
> 
> Again If you say yes, then go ahead let your wife and sister use what they want...but hear me out, *there is something known as moral.*...and morally it is wrong to wear a bikini around EVERYWHERE....otherwise why are "naughty" stuff or channels allowed in UK only AFTER 10pm (or so I was told) why not when kids are still awake? I could give more examples of things you know but am sorry am not used to talking about such crap...


 @Talon, Agreed, but who gets to define what these morals are? Who or what entity has the right to define these morals for everybody? Religion? The State? Or is it individually? And how can these morals be the same across countries and continents given the wide range of beliefs?


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## Dubious

@Vinod2070 Muslim extremism ....interesting...*For her* covering up is *extremism*...*for me* her not covering up is *extremism*...do not give me point of views..


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## Alpha1

Talon said:


> @Argus Panoptes then forgive me for asking...Would you allow your wife or sister to use a bikini? Yes or no? If no, why do you want to see another's sister or wife in one? Is you sister some angel that deserves "special" respect while other girls do not?
> 
> Again If you say yes, then go ahead let your wife and sister use what they want...but hear me out, there is something known as moral....and morally it is wrong to wear a bikini around EVERYWHERE....otherwise why are "naughty" stuff or channels allowed in UK only AFTER 10pm (or so I was told) why not when kids are still awake? I could give more examples of things you know but am sorry am not used to talking about such crap...


 thats a question that shuts everyone up


> @Vinod2070 exactly WHAT are Western VALUES?


NOTHING


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## Dubious

Argus Panoptes said:


> @Talon, Agreed, but who gets to define what these morals are? Who or what entity has the right to define these morals for everybody? Religion? The State? Or is it individually? And how can these morals be the same across countries and continents given the wide range of beliefs?


 @Argus Panoptes I would say the one who created us...But I know the reply would be because you are Muslim...Even in the bible, women are encouraged to cover up same goes for Judaism and Hinduism...I believe if deity of soo many is saying, there has to be some reason....After all who better knows the human than the one who created us...

As for the West, the question goes, You guys call yourself DEMOCRATIC and then say YOU HAVE freedom...What sort of freedom is that when you start dictating how a religion is supposed to be practiced? Why are you trying to play GOD...

If I used this same freedom to demonstrate holocaust many would go RADICAL! But it is fine to abuse other's freedom of religion...

I do not have a prob banning niqaab...but I have a prob West calling us backwards while doing exactly the something under the name of FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY!

If this is freedom and democracy....well the East achieved it way before the West realized!

Now, the only prob the West is facing is the increase in Muslims and are calling it RADICAL coz they do not understand it NOR are TRYING to....instead they are oppressing it....


Humans are like a spring...the more you oppress, the harder they bounce back

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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> @Vinod2070 exactly WHAT are Western VALUES?



In this context it can be summarized as secularism, democracy, freedom of conscience of the individual, liberty, freedom of thought etc.



Talon said:


> @Vinod2070 Muslim extremism ....interesting...*For her* covering up is *extremism*...*for me* her not covering up is *extremism*...do not give me point of views..



This is a very simplistic way of looking at it.

For them, it was a symbol of oppression of women.

You can't deny that millions of women are forced into these all enveloping dresses (some from ages as less as 8-10 years, I have seen it in my own city) than the 300 odd women who have been impacted by this order.

None of you seem to take an offense on that? Suddenly this becomes the biggest issue, not what happens all over the Islamic world?

They have their cultural values that they want to protect. I think they have a right to do that.


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## Dubious

Dillinger said:


> Different definitions of whats acceptable and whats not, that's about it. Countries adjudicate on these matters based on the sentimentality they hold dear- France doesn't like it- their prerogative. Just as much as it is KSA's prerogative to disallow the public practice of any religion other than Islam.


 @Dillinger Well, if the West jumps at what KSA is doing....then why are they following their footpaths?


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## Dillinger

Talon said:


> @Dillinger with freedom comes responsibilities...I do not support the stabbing like i do not support the making of such cartoons...Holocaust is a taboo topic yet it is alright to make fun of ANYOTHER religion? What double standards?



Making fun of the holocaust is not making fun of a religion but rather making fun of the death of a few million people. On the other hand making fun of the prophet does not attempt to make a jest out of people's death, or does it? Your or anyone else's religion is not so important that people will not jest about it, human life on the other hand is important and cannot be taken for insults. You have your own societal rules, you've got groups for Sharia for UK and characters like Anjem Chaudary:-

Here's a nice, in context, and unedited quote of his :-



> "Look, at the end of the day innocent people&#8212;when we say 'innocent people' we mean Muslims&#8212;as far as non-Muslims are concerned they have not accepted Islam and as far as we are concerned that is a crime against God."
> 
> Anjem Choudary, BBC :- *When asked why he would not condemn the 7 July bombings* , http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/hardtalk/4135160.stm



In such circumstances obviously you'll have a backlash.


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## Dubious

Vinod2070 said:


> In this context it can be summarized as *secularism, democracy, freedom of conscience of the individual, liberty, freedom of thought etc.*


 @Vinod2070 define each....secularism, democracy....define each and I will reply you on each...



Vinod2070 said:


> This is a very simplistic way of looking at it.



*For them, it was a symbol of oppression of women.*[/QUOTE] Yet it is women who cover up if raped, harassed and abused? Why dont they continue being WESTERN if it is natural or their CULTURE? Because it is not natural...learn women psychology and you will know ALOT!!




Vinod2070 said:


> You can't deny that millions of women are forced into these all enveloping dresses (some from ages as less as 8-10 years, I have seen it in my own city) than the 300 odd women who have been impacted by this order.
> 
> None of you seem to take an offense on that? Suddenly this becomes the biggest issue, not what happens all over the Islamic world?
> 
> They have their *cultural values that they want to protect.* I think they have a right to do that.


 @Vinod2070 I do not support oppressed people...EVERYONE voices out that Muslim women are oppressed into these "enveloping dresses" then why is it that the same cry babies are oppressing women out of clothes? That is a different kind of oppression yet still an oppression...


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## I-LEK

*radical "muslim" - Islamists! horror, the savages, the fanatics, the Wahhabis and other Islamists!

niqab - the evil and Islamism!

do not like Europe (West)? - Fails (bring down) - radicals back home! 

You shame - my Islam!

features - the radical Islamists - evil!*


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## Dubious

Dillinger said:


> Making fun of the holocaust is not making fun of a religion but rather making fun of the death of a few million people. On the other hand making fun of the prophet does not attempt to make a jest out of people's death, or does it? Your or anyone else's religion is not so important that people will not jest about it, human life on the other hand is important and cannot be taken for insults. You have your own societal rules, you've got groups for Sharia for UK and characters like Anjem Chaudary:-
> 
> Here's a nice, in context, and unedited quote of his :-
> 
> 
> 
> In such circumstances obviously you'll have a backlash.


 @Dillinger okk.....do you love your mom? If you do, say I make fun of her...not once, but repeatedly, does your blood boil? Why should it...mind you I have seen people fight over bad mouthing about moms...this is a Prophet, whom we honor more than our mom....

I dont expect you to understand....we even respect Jesus and Moses and cant bad mouth or make cartoons of them because we are not allowed...

I admit killing was wrong...but have you not seen people kill because someone bad mouthed someone's mom or sis? 

Have you not heard of anger when someone's sis or known friend is raped? I mean even whole of India cried for the Delhi rape cases...How many people got angry about it? Well, she was not even someone you knew....


Well, we are talking about A prophet whom we hold dear to us...Obviously a WHOLE UMMAH (Nation) sheds tears for this....


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## Agnostic_Indian

Vinod2070 said:


> In this context it can be summarized as secularism, democracy, freedom of conscience of the individual, liberty, freedom of thought etc.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very simplistic way of looking at it.
> 
> For them, it was a symbol of oppression of women.
> 
> You can't deny that millions of women are forced into these all enveloping dresses (some from ages as less as 8-10 years, I have seen it in my own city) than the 300 odd women who have been impacted by this order.
> 
> None of you seem to take an offense on that? Suddenly this becomes the biggest issue, not what happens all over the Islamic world?
> 
> They have their cultural values that they want to protect. I think they have a right to do that.



what do you say about head scarf ban and ban on other religious symbols ?


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## Dubious

As for making fun of holocaust is making fun of Jews, like their well known long noses, how their fingers were measured, how their facial features were scrutinized....and many more THEY are a race ....

1st learn about the honor and WHAT we consider the Prophet as...then go there...


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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> @Vinod2070 define each....secularism, democracy....define each and I will reply you on each...



You can look up any dictionary and oblige.



> Yet it is women who cover up if raped, harassed and abused? Why dont they continue being WESTERN if it is natural or their CULTURE? Because it is not natural...learn women psychology and you will know ALOT!!



OK. I will try.



> @Vinod2070 I do not support oppressed people...EVERYONE voices out that Muslim women are oppressed into these "enveloping dresses" then why is it that the same cry babies are *oppressing women out of clothes*? That is a different kind of oppression yet still an oppression...



Not really. That is a very unreasonable interpretation.

You can have modest and inconspicuous clothing still. Burqa and niqab actually stand out more, which goes against the basic idea anyways.

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## Dillinger

Talon said:


> @Dillinger okk.....do you love your mom? If you do, say I make fun of her...not once, but repeatedly, does your blood boil? Why should it...mind you I have seen people fight over bad mouthing about moms...this is a Prophet, whom we honor more than our mom....
> 
> I dont expect you to understand....we even respect Jesus and Moses and cant bad mouth or make cartoons of them because we are not allowed...
> 
> I admit killing was wrong...but have you not seen people kill because someone bad mouthed someone's mom or sis?
> 
> Have you not heard of anger when someone's sis or known friend is raped? I mean even whole of India cried for the Delhi rape cases...How many people got angry about it? Well, she was not even someone you knew....
> 
> 
> Well, we are talking about A prophet whom we hold dear to us...Obviously a WHOLE UMMAH (Nation) sheds tears for this....



Shed tears all you want to, I am mature enough to NOT KILL someone for bad mouthing my mother. Islam's self aggrandizement does not mean that we shall pay it the same level of respect. Nor to Hinduism or Christianity or Judaism, ever opened an American channel? Every 5 minutes someone makes fun of Judaism and even the holocaust- ever heard of an American Jew kill someone for it? Your sense of devotion is not mine and never shall be, *I can respect your RIGHT TO FOLLOW WHICHEVER RELIGION YOU CHOOSE TO but not the religion itself, Just like your right is ABSOLUTE so was the Cartoonist's right to express himself no matter who it offended- JUST AS THE RIGHT TO LIFE IS ABSOLUTE.* The ummah can either grow up and understand that for many- even religious people religion is not the be all and end all of our lives- or keep rioting at every small "insult" like the RSS AND VHP fellows here in my country.

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## Audio

Talon said:


> So democratic is flushed down the drain? Look up the meaning of democratic



It is democratic, the government of the majority of the people decided it. 




Talon said:


> In short on few people Actually support such silly laws...Plus it is against their own freedom to impose such stuff...I have no prob with banning niqab...*But Ordering someone to dress or not dress in a certain* WHILE DECLARING freedom of religion is a hypocrisy! I am only talking about the hypocrisy!!



You keep confusing, at this point i think on purpose, two different things. Namely, government has the right to choose the attire of their employees, same as restaurants and airlines do and a bunch of other businesses. Just like how you are expected to wear a lab coat in your lab.

Second, noone is preventing you from wearing a scarf over your hair. In public too, just don't wear it on the job if that job is government paid.

As for the links, who cares what HRW or for that matter the US says. Their opinion holds no merit. HRW is a tool and the US, well, they ain't no bastion of human rights-_hint_ extrajudicial detention etc. And it's lip service anyway.

----------------------------------------


To summarize:

If you are government employed they HAVE the right to choose what you wear as you are a representative of them while working.
If you are a private citizen you can walk around in scarfs in the middle of the summer if you wish.

If you are a government employee the law has provisions in place for the faithful to wear their smaller tokens on the job. And when you clock out of your government job you are free to put a scarf on, just like a private citizen.

What is still unclear?

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## Dubious

Vinod2070 said:


> You can look up any dictionary and oblige.


 @Vinod2070 ok let me get meanings of each of the words you mentioned....



> secularism, democracy, freedom of conscience of the individual, liberty, freedom of thought etc.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...arts-ban-full-face-veil-70.html#ixzz2PhGpeqMt



*secularism*


> is the principle of *separation of government institutions*, and the persons mandated to represent the State, *from religious institutions* and *religious dignitaries.*



It just separates the 2...Nowhere does it say oppress the religion to fit the state as both are 2 different things ....so why AT STATE LEVEL are they interfering religion? 

*Democracy*


> is a form of government in which* all eligible citizens* have an* equal say* in the decisions that *affect their lives*. Democracy allows *eligible citizens* to *participate equally*&#8212;either directly or through elected representatives&#8212;in the proposal, development, and *creation of laws*



Are Muslims not eligible citizens? Why dont they have equal say as Islam affects THEIR LIVES....


*freedom of conscience of the individual*


> Freedom of thought (also called the freedom of conscience or ideas) is the *freedom of an individual to hold or consider a fact*, viewpoint, or thought, independent of others' viewpoints.


 Well, you would be surprised as to how many ACTUALLY take up the veil themselves while how many others cover up due to the cold weather or the dust ....cover up is covering up....So, what about this group? Where in democracy do they fall?



Audio said:


> It is democratic, the government of the majority of the people decided it.
> 
> You keep confusing, at this point i think on purpose, two different things. Namely, government has the right to choose the attire of their employees, same as restaurants and airlines do and a bunch of other businesses. Just like how you are expected to wear a lab coat in your lab.
> 
> Second, *noone is preventing you from wearing a scarf over your hair. In public too, just don't wear it on the job if that job is government paid.*
> 
> *As for the links, who cares what HRW or for that matter the US says. Their opinion holds no merit. HRW is a tool and the US, well, they ain't no bastion of human rights-hint extrajudicial detention etc.
> *


---------------------------------------- @Audio Ok...sooo....the majority case thing...well, then the same case with Saudi and Pakistan....Tell this to the Indians who cry about our minorities....YOU just proved my point that KSA and Pakistan long achieved this...


Audio said:


> To summarize:
> 
> If you are government employed they HAVE the *right to choose what you wear as you are a representative of them while working.*
> If you are a *private citizen you can walk around in scarfs in the middle of the summer if you wish.*
> 
> If you are a government employee the *law has provisions in place for the faithful to wear their smaller tokens on the job.* And when you clock out of your government job you are free to put a scarf on, just like a private citizen.
> 
> What is still unclear?


 @Audio So, according to you, when you enter KSA you shouldnt cry why they want your ladies covered....

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## Dubious

Dillinger said:


> Shed tears all you want to, I am mature enough to NOT KILL someone for bad mouthing my mother. Islam's self aggrandizement does not mean that we shall pay it the same level of respect. Nor to Hinduism or Christianity or Judaism, ever opened an American channel? Every 5 minutes someone makes fun of Judaism and even the holocaust- ever heard of an American Jew kill someone for it? Your sense of devotion is not mine and never shall be, *I can respect your RIGHT TO FOLLOW WHICHEVER RELIGION YOU CHOOSE TO but not the religion itself, Just like your right is ABSOLUTE so was the Cartoonist's right to express himself no matter who it offended- JUST AS THE RIGHT TO LIFE IS ABSOLUTE.* The ummah can either grow up and understand that for many- even religious people religion is not the be all and end all of our lives- or keep rioting at every small "insult" like the RSS AND VHP fellows here in my country.


 @Dillinger There is a limit to everything and there is a limit to freedom as @Audio has shown even after crying Europe has freedom, the people cant even choose what to wear and what not to when they work for the govt...

With freedom comes responsibilities...The cartoonist was not oblivious as to what he was doing.....He knew Exactly what he was doing...

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## illusion8

Their country their rules, if the majority have ratified the rule then it's their prerogative.


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## Dubious

I live in Europe, I go to work covered no one has any problem with it......My sis lives in UK, she teaches in a govt collage and goes to work covered....no one has a prob with it....My cousin in law lives in USA she goes to work covered, no one has a prob with that...

I am not sure where these problematic people come in....



illusion8 said:


> Their country their rules.


 @illusion8 then you should swallow Pakistani and KSA rules too...their country their rules...But the way you debate about them....shows you do not swallow that...Yet when it comes to the West it is their country their rules?

sorry @Pboy i needed to mention you in 1 of the posts as I do not know much about the cases in Norway....

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## Alpha1

illusion8 said:


> Their country their rules, if the majority have ratified the rule then it's their prerogative.


next time please dont complain about why Saudi's have harsh rules


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## Contrarian

Talon said:


> then you should swallow Pakistani and KSA rules too...their country their rules...But the way you debate about them....shows you do not swallow that...Yet when it comes to the West it is their country their rules?
> 
> sorry @Pboy i needed to mention you in 1 of the posts as I do not know much about the cases in Norway....



Simple thing Talon. Whether we like them or not. Indians respect Saudi rules as well. I dont hear Pakistani's complaining about Saudi rules where women are treated as a man's property.

Why the cry over this then?


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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> @Vinod2070 ok let me get meanings of each of the words you mentioned....



Thanks.



> *secularism*
> 
> It just separates the 2...Nowhere does it say oppress the religion to fit the state as both are 2 different things ....so why AT STATE LEVEL are they interfering religion?



The meaning of these words change as per context. In Indian context, it means respect for all religions. It has actually now come to mean anyone who is anti BJP.

In the context of France, for historical reasons, they have a strong suspicion of overt display of religious symbols.



> *Democracy*
> 
> Are Muslims not eligible citizens? Why dont they have equal say as Islam affects THEIR LIVES....



They are. Equal citizens.

Not more equal. They should adapt themselves to local culture and not expect the reverse from the host society.



> *freedom of conscience of the individual* Well, you would be surprised as to how many ACTUALLY take up the veil themselves while how many others cover up due to the cold weather or the dust ....cover up is covering up....So, what about this group? Where in democracy do they fall?



Well, I think there are supposedly just 300 odd women who are impacted by this.

Why make it such a big issue? All that you mention can still be achieved by other means.


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## Dubious

Contrarian said:


> Simple thing Talon. Whether we like them or not. Indians respect Saudi rules as well. I dont hear Pakistani's complaining about Saudi rules where women are treated as a man's property.
> 
> Why the cry over this then?


 @Contrarian read all my posts and you will get your answer....summary: Because in every debate the West is set as an example of Freedom....WE do not brag about freedom....so where there is freedom seems equal to Saudi ...meaning Saudi is actually applying Western freedom

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## illusion8

Talon said:


> I live in Europe, I go to work covered no one has any problem with it......My sis lives in UK, she teaches in a govt collage and goes to work covered....no one has a prob with it....My cousin in law lives in USA she goes to work covered, no one has a prob with that...
> 
> I am not sure where these problematic people come in....
> 
> 
> @illusion8 then you should swallow Pakistani and KSA rules too...their country their rules...But the way you debate about them....shows you do not swallow that...Yet when it comes to the West it is their country their rules?
> 
> sorry @Pboy i needed to mention you in 1 of the posts as I do not know much about the cases in Norway....





Alpha1 said:


> next time please dont complain about why Saudi's have harsh rules



Of course!!, why would I disagree with Pakistan's or KSA's laws?
@Talon, I don't remember debating about Pakistan's laws - some people have reservations about Pakistan's blasphemy laws and I don't agree with it too - but then it's your country your laws.

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## Audio

Talon said:


> Ok...sooo....the majority case thing...well, then the same case with Saudi and Pakistan....Tell this to the Indians who cry about our minorities....YOU just proved my point that KSA and Pakistan long achieved this...



Why do you bring this in? I'm not HRW, i dont care what they report. It a fallacy of an argument anyway. 
You have been proven wrong in my previous posts. Government only takes the clothing freedom away when the person works for the government and leaves provisions for display of religious affection on a smaller scale. Other employers have clothing regulations as well. Stop trolling, please.




Talon said:


> So, according to you, when you enter KSA you shouldnt cry why they want your ladies covered....



My family (mom, dad and kid bro) are going to Dubai in a few days for a holiday. She bought a nice leopard skin themed scarf for herself and for my bro she insisted he does not take flip-flops as they are forbidden in some fancy hotel that they are going to. And i wasn't crying....

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## Dillinger

Talon said:


> @Dillinger There is a limit to everything and there is a limit to freedom as @Audio has shown even after crying Europe has freedom, the people cant even choose what to wear and what not to when they work for the govt...
> 
> With freedom comes responsibilities...The cartoonist was not oblivious as to what he was doing.....He knew Exactly what he was doing...



Unhunh, the cartoonist should have just not done what he did because the ummah would get him, sure thing. 

AND so Muslims killed him, I guess then everyone has the right to kill anyone who offends their precious religion, god or gods. Maybe some people take offense to being called a kaffir and will stab the guy who uses that word, or wait I may not like people calling themselves hinduwaadis and will go on a rampage. Well, your're welcome to that view, I'd rather have mine where I can criticize up to the point of offending. *Shows exactly how mature and comfortable in their own religion's message a community is when its adherents can't even take an "insult" without shedding blood. Oh he insulted Goddess Sita, oh my- woe be me the world shall come down on our heads- KILL HIM! Pity*.

Anyway the law of the land is the law of the land, at least France doesn't have the death punishment for wearing the niqab unlike in Pakistan where in dejure terms blasphemy is punishable by death- although I've heard its not often awarded and is replaced by imprisonment- that is if a mob doesn't get to the blasphemer first.

Well by Pakistan's legal standards I am a blasphemer and I am well off that way. I believe we have reached an impasse, so to each his/her own.

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## Contrarian

Talon said:


> @Contrarian read all my posts and you will get your answer....summary: Because in every debate the West is set as an example of Freedom....WE do not brag about freedom....so where there is freedom seems equal to Saudi ...meaning Saudi is actually applying Western freedom



The West talks of freedom to choose the laws - democracy.
What the democracy delivers is upto them then. The west crows about giving voice to the people.

And France is a democracy. If the people of France - for whom the Government of France exists - want to say No to veils, then that is what will and should happen rightfully.

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## Alpha1

@Dillinger kafir means a non believer only sumone who doesnt know would take offence

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## Contrarian

Dillinger said:


> Unhunh, the cartoonist should have just not done what he did because the ummah would get him, sure thing.
> 
> AND so Muslims killed him, I guess then everyone has the right to kill anyone who offends their precious religion, god or gods. Maybe some people take offense to being called a kaffir and will stab the guy who uses that word, or wait I may not like people calling themselves hinduwaadis and will go on a rampage. Well, your're welcome to that view, I'd rather have mine where I can criticize up to the point of offending. *Shows exactly how mature and comfortable in their own religion's message a community is when its adherents can't even take an "insult" without shedding blood. Oh he insulted Goddess Sita, oh my- woe be me the world shall come down on our heads- KILL HIM! Pity*.
> 
> Anyway the law of the land is the law of the land, at least France doesn't have the death punishment for wearing the niqab unlike in Pakistan where in dejure terms blasphemy is punishable by death- although I've heard its not often awarded and is replaced by imprisonment- that is if a mob doesn't get to the blasphemer first.
> 
> Well by Pakistan's legal standards I am a blasphemer and I am well off that way. I believe we have reached an impasse, so to each his/her own.


Brilliant post.

If Muslim standards were applied, the people of France have a right to kill anyone wearing a burka or veil. They have full rights to find these things blasphemous.


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## Pboy

You`re making it sound like there is some huge anti muslim/foreigners movement going on in Europe.

Yes we have radical nutheads who hates muslims or generally foreigners without a reason, BUT they`re not dominating- They are in minority. 

There are few of them here. Denmark is a very open country, you can basically do whatever you want to any community and they will say that its freedom of speech.

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## Dubious

Vinod2070 said:


> The meaning of these words change as per context. In Indian context, it means respect for all religions. It has actually now come to mean anyone who is anti BJP.
> 
> In the context of France, for historical reasons, they have a strong suspicion of overt display of religious symbols.


 @Vinod2070 yes, that is what i mean... the words dont mean anything...the meanings are not consistent but dynamic....hence, for France.....it is just annoyed why more Muslims are covering up...




Vinod2070 said:


> They are. Equal citizens.
> 
> Not more equal. They should adapt themselves to* local culture* and not expect the reverse from the host society.


what is the local culture? Define that....Anyway, it is in EU legislation that one has the freedom to practice religion and no one can stop them....that is secularism in a democratic country...When I entered EU, I was given a 5 hrs lecture on my rights and how if abused i can file a complaint...Wont be easy but it is possible...




Vinod2070 said:


> Well, I think there are supposedly just *300 odd women* who are impacted by this.
> 
> Why make it such a *big issue*? All that you mention can still be achieved by other means.



You would be surprised at the numbers...otherwise 300 in a country like France should not get the agenda to National level....

What the big issue is ....


> Because in every debate the West is set as an example of Freedom....WE do not brag about freedom....so where there is freedom seems equal to Saudi ...meaning Saudi is actually applying Western freedom
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...arts-ban-full-face-veil-71.html#ixzz2PhORPRcg


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## Contrarian

Alpha1 said:


> @Dillinger kafir means a non believer only sumone who doesnt know would take offence



Yet, it is upto the people to decide what they take offence in or not.

A rational Muslim would find someone insulting Mohammad to be a fool and let it go. Most Muslims however would not and would try to kill him.

Similarly, a rational man might not find kafir offensive, but others might.

So if Muslim sensibilities are applied on other communities, they are also within full rights to kill anyone who uses the word kafir.


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## Dillinger

Alpha1 said:


> @Dillinger kafir means a non believer only sumone who doesnt know would take offence



I know that young one, nor is calling someone human an insult just as much as calling someone a non-believer is not an insult either. BUT, IF I were to declare a certain name here to have belonged to someone less than divine with human fallibility then I'd be swimming in a sea of insults. Leave it be.

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## Slav Defence

huh.. @Talon what else can be expected from france....these free minded people who conducted meeting in 17th century in which they discussed that are women considered as humans or not?
in france's society a divorced woman can't be respected! 
france has worse reputation about women,so what the hell to be expected from them lol!

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## Caucasian Albania

well tbh wearing a full face veil is a bit strange. anyone could wear it and pretend they're a women and go around comiiting crime without allowing their face to be seen.

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## Dubious

Audio said:


> Why do you bring this in? I'm not HRW, i dont care what they report. It a fallacy of an argument anyway.
> You have been proven wrong in my previous posts. Government only takes the clothing freedom away when the person works for the government and leaves provisions for display of religious affection on a smaller scale. Other employers have clothing regulations as well. Stop trolling, please.


 @Audio I am not trolling, I am merely pointing out the constitution and what France is doing is going against EU constitution and human rights where right to practice religion....I have said earlier I am not against the niqab ban, but I sure am against someone ordering me what to wear when EU constitution says the opposite!

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## Cloakedvessel

Raja.Pakistani said:


> I was not making any comparison. you said ban on veil is must for communication and i just said that there is something called verbal communication



Read my post again. I never stated there should be a ban on the ground that is a hindrance in face to face communication. 
In fact, I never said anything about a ban. Since you seem to think that finding a burqa highly undesirable on the basis that it severely restricts communication is, I should point out that this argument for me is, especially on itself, not substantial enough to justify a ban. Yes, I favor the ban, and I would base that fore-mostly on the aspects relating to security and identification. Regardless of the fact that placing the argument -of miscommunication and often no meaningful communication at all - in a broader context i.e social harmony in a multicultural and open society, would make it a very strong argument to justify a ban.



> I was saying that communication can be done without body language or facial expression which no doubt are important when you have communication with someone close to you i.e your relative, friends etc but body language or face expression are less important when you deal or communicate with strangers



It's the other way around...... A face is much more than just speech.

Covering a face is a particularly effective means to segregate yourself outside the society. It is not only difficult for someone else to interpret what you say, if he can not see your face, the need to converse disappears.

In the Western world, good communication hinges on visual contact. Everything in our face communicates with other persons. Our eyes, our eyebrows, our mouth corners, all give out minimal signals. Which are picked up by our interlocutor, and in response gives his own signals.
This way our words are placed in context. Because how do you know if that sarcastic remark is a well-intended banter, an insult or even a flirt? The impression someone makes is a sum of signals.

Besides conveying emotions the face, and especially the look - eyes being a very powerful communication tool -has an important function in the regulation of contact.
Eye contact makes sure that we are not bumping to each other in a busy shopping street, and that we know that a gossip is well received or not. Almost imperceptibly we adjust our presentation to the reaction of the other person.

A look is also very compelling. Once you cross your eyes, it is very hard to go around that person.

Without the face it is very difficult to interpret the signals. It inevitably leads to miscommunication. You only understand a part of the message, because the rest is hidden behind a piece of fabric. Then you react too late and misinterpret, with the result that you prefer to avoid contact.

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## Dubious

Caucasian Albania said:


> well tbh wearing a full face veil is a bit strange. anyone could wear it and pretend they're a women and go around comiiting crime without allowing their face to be seen.


 @Caucasian Albania I agree....But, if some want to wear it, should their freedom be suppressed ?


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## Argus Panoptes

Talon said:


> @Audio I am not trolling, I am merely pointing out the constitution and what France is doing is going against EU constitution and human rights where right to practice religion....I have said earlier I am not against the niqab ban, but I sure am against someone ordering me what to wear *when EU constitution says the opposite*!



It is only a matter of time the legality of this French ban will be taken to the European Court, if that is the case. @Talon


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## Dubious

Contrarian said:


> The West talks of freedom to choose the laws - democracy.
> What the democracy delivers is upto them then. The west crows about giving voice to the people.
> 
> And *France is a democracy.* If the *people of France* - for whom the Government of France exists - want to say No to veils, then that is what will and should happen rightfully.


 @Contrarian so the Muslims are not a people of France and hence their right should be ignored?



Contrarian said:


> Brilliant post.
> 
> If Muslim standards were applied, the people of France have a right to kill anyone wearing a burka or veil. They have full rights to find these things blasphemous.


 @Dillinger I will not be answering you because I have discussed this with you before so your post is repeated and a waste of my time....you can only get thanks and approvals from people like @Contrarian



Pboy said:


> You`re making it sound like there is some huge anti muslim/foreigners movement going on in Europe.
> 
> Yes we have radical nutheads who hates muslims or generally foreigners without a reason, BUT they`re not dominating- They are in minority.
> 
> There are few of them here. Denmark is a very open country, you can basically do whatever you want to any community and they will say that its freedom of speech.


 @Pboy you would be surprised how many Asians think what the news shows is a representative of the whole of Europe... to some extent it is funny...



Contrarian said:


> Yet, it is upto the people to decide what they take offence in or not.
> 
> A rational Muslim would find someone insulting Mohammad to be a fool and let it go. Most Muslims however would not and would try to kill him.
> 
> Similarly, a rational man might not find kafir offensive, but others might.
> 
> So if Muslim sensibilities are applied on other communities, they are also within full rights to kill anyone who uses the word kafir.


 @Contrarian Well, making fun of someone's believe just shows how low one is... I already said I am not for what happened to him, but if one choose his own journey then he should meet with his own fate...

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## Audio

Talon said:


> @Audio I am not trolling, I am merely pointing out the constitution and what *France is doing* is going against EU constitution and human rights where right to *practice religion*....I have said earlier I am not against the niqab ban, but I sure am against someone ordering me what to wear when EU constitution says the opposite!



Good luck telling your future employer you will be practicing religion in the workplace during working hours...in the private sector you would never get a job lol. It's just how things are. Society runs without much considerations for personal wishes of individuals. In the eyes of your employer, time for your prayer is money lost.


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## Alpha1

@Slav Defence A secular state is not supposed to interfere in religious matters of the people so why is france interfering..


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## Dubious

Argus Panoptes said:


> It is only a matter of time the legality of this French ban will be taken to the European Court, if that is the case. @Talon


 @Argus Panoptes I doubt it...France is the least liked when it comes to laws....My previous boss was French....nice up tight lady...But I was surprised she told me that in France it is actually a law to be responsible for their own parents....something other Europeans do not apply...



Audio said:


> Good luck telling your future employer you will be practicing religion in the workplace during working hours...in the private sector you would never get a job lol. It's just how things are. Society runs without much considerations for personal wishes of individuals. In the eyes of your employer, time for your prayer is money lost.


 @Audio well, good luck to them to find my replacement


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## illusion8

Argus Panoptes said:


> It is only a matter of time the legality of this French ban will be taken to the European Court, if that is the case. @Talon



Multiple countries are looking at banning burqa or are in the process of banning it - so how effective will this case against France be in the EU?

BBC News - Belgian ban on full veils comes into force
Italy edges closer to 'burqa ban' law - Europe - Al Jazeera English
Netherlands to ban the burka - Telegraph
BBC News - Germany's first burka ban imposed by state of Hesse


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## Alpha1

illusion8 said:


> Multiple countries are looking at banning burqa or are in the process of banning it - so how effective will this case against France be in the EU?
> 
> BBC News - Belgian ban on full veils comes into force
> Italy edges closer to 'burqa ban' law - Europe - Al Jazeera English
> Netherlands to ban the burka - Telegraph


Secularism exposed-

epic example


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## Contrarian

Talon said:


> @Contrarian so the Muslims are not a people of France and hence their right should be ignored?



They are Talon. But what is Democracy?
Rule and wishes of the majority. 
Look at this issue objectively and not from religious lenses. IF this is what the majority of the people of France want, this is what they should get.


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## Argus Panoptes

Talon said:


> @Argus Panoptes I doubt it...France is the least liked when it comes to laws....My previous boss was French....nice up tight lady...But I was surprised she told me that in France it is actually a law to be responsible for their own parents....something other Europeans do not apply......................


 @Talon, What is stopping any French national Muslim from approaching the EC for declaring the ban an infringement of the enshrined freedom to practice their religion?


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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> @Vinod2070 yes, that is what i mean... the words dont mean anything...the meanings are not consistent but dynamic....hence, for France.....it is just annoyed why more Muslims are covering up...



Don't you think "covering up" is just a symbol? The issue is something bigger?



> what is the local culture? Define that....Anyway, it is in EU legislation that one has the freedom to practice religion and no one can stop them....that is secularism in a democratic country...When I entered EU, I was given a 5 hrs lecture on my rights and how if abused i can file a complaint...Wont be easy but it is possible...



And the countries have the right to protect their culture. In a way that they see fit?



> You would be surprised at the numbers...otherwise 300 in a country like France should not get the agenda to National level....



That is the number I read in many reports.

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## anonymus

Somehow there seems to be a logical defect in arguments of every participating party.


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## illusion8

Alpha1 said:


> *Secularism exposed*-
> 
> epic example



How is it exposed? how could all these countries be wrong at the same time?


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## Dubious

illusion8 said:


> Multiple countries are looking at banning burqa or are in the process of banning it - so how effective will this case against France be in the EU?
> 
> BBC News - Belgian ban on full veils comes into force
> Italy edges closer to 'burqa ban' law - Europe - Al Jazeera English
> Netherlands to ban the burka - Telegraph
> BBC News - Germany's first burka ban imposed by state of Hesse


 @illusion8 ahh...you see, Germany is also the same country to have established Islamic studies center....Italy and Netherlands are just talking crap...I can tell this 1st hand ....


Anyway, you can put as many articles as you want, but I am not one who plays my cards on assumption....IF they put forward any more crazy thoughts, their economy which is already shaking HEAVILY will pay a HIGHER price! 

Like I said I am not against ban of face veil...I am against HYPOCRISY and Double standards or 2 faced laws!!

Where people overseas cry when something happens in Asia but do the same thing in FREE EUROPE under a different name...



Contrarian said:


> They are Talon. But what is Democracy?
> Rule and wishes of the majority.
> Look at this issue objectively and not from religious lenses. IF this is what the majority of the people of France want, this is what they should get.


 @Contrarian then according to you Iran and Saudi are ALREADY worlds BIGGEST democrats


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## Slav Defence

Alpha1 said:


> @Slav Defence A secular state is not supposed to interfere in religious matters of the people so why is france interfering..



no--they are lying,they hide their extremism--they are still crusader mentality people who hates Islam,and they sugarcoat their dictatorship laws in the name of secularism!


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## Dubious

Argus Panoptes said:


> @Talon, What is stopping any French national Muslim from approaching the EC for declaring the ban an infringement of the enshrined freedom to practice their religion?


 @Argus Panoptes NOTHING many have already have you heard of Rich Muslim vows to pay all French burka fines | News | The Week UK


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## Pboy

Talon said:


> I live in Europe, I go to work covered no one has any problem with it......My sis lives in UK, she teaches in a govt collage and goes to work covered....no one has a prob with it....My cousin in law lives in USA she goes to work covered, no one has a prob with that...
> 
> I am not sure where these problematic people come in....
> 
> 
> @illusion8 then you should swallow Pakistani and KSA rules too...their country their rules...But the way you debate about them....shows you do not swallow that...Yet when it comes to the West it is their country their rules?
> 
> sorry @Pboy i needed to mention you in 1 of the posts as I do not know much about the cases in Norway....



I agree.

Their country, their rules.

We may not agree with them, but in the end if you`re gonna support one country then dont be a hypocrite and bash the other one.

RSA, Pakistan, India,

Their country their rules.

France, US,

Their country, their rules.

Its the same.

Though we can debate and discuss the laws on whether they`re fair or not.

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## illusion8

Talon said:


> @illusion8 ahh...you see, Germany is also the same country to have established Islamic studies center....Italy and Netherlands are just talking crap...I can tell this 1st hand ....
> 
> 
> Anyway, you can put as many articles as you want, but I am not one who plays my cards on assumption....IF they put forward any more crazy thoughts, their economy which is already shaking HEAVILY will pay a HIGHER price!
> 
> Like I said I am not against ban of face veil...I am against HYPOCRISY and Double standards or 2 faced laws!!
> 
> Where people overseas cry when something happens in Asia but do the same thing in FREE EUROPE under a different name...



I don't see how anything you said corresponds to the laws that these countries are passing or have passed, my question to Argus was how effective would opposing this French law in EU court be? when many European countries are in the process of banning it or are thinking on those lines.

Seven in 10 back burka ban - Politics News - Austrian Independent Online News - English Newspaper


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## Dubious

Vinod2070 said:


> Don't you think "covering up" is just a symbol? The issue is something bigger?
> And the countries have the right to protect their culture. In a way that they see fit?
> 
> That is the number I read in many reports.


 @Vinod2070 Athaan is banned, we said fine, praying in the open is banned we said fine, now they want to go a step further...All I am saying is this should stop...Under the freedom hood they are banning EVERYTHING....

Either they openly accept they are intolerant people incapable of giving equal rights or they give equal rights....there is no half way...

what culture?

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## Alpha1

illusion8 said:


> How is it exposed? how could all these countries be wrong at the same time?


thats ur logic?
just like germany,italy,spain and japan were wrong in world war 2


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## Contrarian

Talon said:


> @Contrarian then according to you Iran and Saudi are ALREADY worlds BIGGEST democrats



Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship/monarchy. It is certainly not a democracy. 

Iran is a controlled democracy. So the actions of their government have _some_ legitimacy. Whether we agree with those actions or not is onto us. They on their part are not wrong in any domestic legislation as long as it does not violate a previous commitment/treaty.


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## Dubious

illusion8 said:


> I don't see how anything you said corresponds to the laws that these countries are passing or have passed, my question to Argus was how effective would opposing this French law in EU court be? when many European countries are in the process of banning it or are thinking on those lines.
> 
> Seven in 10 back burka ban - Politics News - Austrian Independent Online News - English Newspaper


 @illusion8 did YOU read the article? They are not sure of ANYTHING...


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## illusion8

Alpha1 said:


> thats ur logic?
> just like germany,italy,spain and japan were wrong in world war 2



???? that's your logic? correlating internal laws with international disputes and wars?


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## Dubious

Contrarian said:


> Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship/monarchy. It is certainly not a democracy.
> 
> Iran is a controlled democracy. So the actions of their government have _some_ legitimacy. Whether we agree with those actions or not is onto us. They on their part are not wrong in any domestic legislation as long as it does not violate a previous commitment/treaty.


 @Contrarian didnt you say their country their laws? Well, why differentiate now?


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## Contrarian

Talon said:


> @Contrarian didnt you say their country their laws? Well, why differentiate now?



The choices made by the people.

Did i not make that clear?
A democracy is free to legislate - whatever that legislation may be.

Saudi Arabia is not a democracy. France is.

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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> @Vinod2070 Athaan is banned, we said fine, praying in the open is banned we said fine, now they want to go a step further...All I am saying is this should stop...Under the freedom hood they are banning EVERYTHING....
> 
> Either they openly accept they are intolerant people incapable of giving equal rights or they give equal rights....there is no half way...
> 
> what culture?



I don't think that Muslims are not given religious rights in France or Europe.

In fact, they get more rights than in almost any Islamic country. Most Islamic countries suppress the non dominant sects, not the secular countries.


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## Alpha1

illusion8 said:


> ???? that's your logic? correlating internal laws with international disputes and wars?


*I JUST PROVED TO U THAT "SEVERAL" COUNTRIES CAN BE WRONG AT THE SAME TIME*


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## Pboy

Just to say it,

I dont like or agree with many of RSAs laws.

I dont agree with many laws here in Norway either.

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## Dubious

Contrarian said:


> The choices made by the people.
> 
> Did i not make that clear?
> A democracy is free to legislate - whatever that legislation may be.
> 
> Saudi Arabia is not a democracy. France is.


 @Contrarian I am talking about how you eagerly agreed their country their laws....why the double standard now?


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## anonymus

The french, Belgians and dutch are not banning burka because they hate it or are concerned about handful of their citizens not integrating or because burka is a security threat.Irrespective of what reason they give,the reason that they are banning burka is because it is a symbol.

It is a symbol of segregation but that issue is secondary as nobody cares if someone decides to segregates himself.Criminals and mental patients are forced to segregate and this concern of dis-segregation does not arise in their case.

The act of burka banning is directly related to supremacism and nose thumping done by the likes of anjem chaudhary and rioters of Marseilles and Paris.The supremacist ideology of radicals entice in its opponent emotions ranging from fear-hatred-disgust.A burka clad women in this scenario is subconsciously constructed as an enemy combatant,an active agent of civil disobedience which needs to be nullified.

It is an counter assertion of power by Europeans in face of propaganda and nose thumping by Islamic radicals and their insecurities and disgust at being outnumbered (because of propaganda being more shrill).The excuse whether of Secularism or equality or democracy are just excuses and are thrown to explain something whose explanation is more baser.

It is the reason that france has problem with just 200 burka clad women and why argument of any party does not makes complete sense.
@Vinod2070 @Contrarian @Talon @ZYXW

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## ZYXW

Argus Panoptes said:


> @Talon I have not followed this thread so please forgive me if this question has been answered before.
> 
> If certain countries can ban bikinis for women, then why can't other countries ban facial veils for women too?



The answer is that they can't ban either. No government should ever be given that right. It should not be the government's job to decide any of those things!!

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## Dubious

Vinod2070 said:


> I don't think that Muslims are not given religious rights in France or Europe.
> 
> In fact, they get more rights than in almost any Islamic country. Most Islamic countries suppress the non dominant sects, not the secular countries.


 @Vinod2070 what rights? we cant have open athaan nor can we pray openly....but church bells in UK, Italy, Spain some other parts of central and south Europe and some of the other countries can ring in to bring more tourists?  Empty churches are rented by Muslims for their prayers otherwise the buildings would have needed to break their historical structures....

What rights? the basic right to pray, call to prayer is taken, now basic right to dress is being challenged under the word FREEDOM !



ZYXW said:


> The answer is that they can't ban either. No government should ever be given that right. It should not be the government's job to decide any of those things!!


 @ZYXW EXACTLY....after calling themselves Secular they malign the word!! 

THAT is all I am against!! Not against them banning face veil for security reasons...but against them corrupting or having double standards!!

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## Contrarian

Talon said:


> @Contrarian I am talking about how you eagerly agreed their country their laws....why the double standard now?



The sole reason why i eagerly agree to their laws is that they are a democracy. If they are passing a law, it means the majority of the people of that country want this law. 

But I disagree with laws in other countries like Saudi Arabia - is because they are NOT a democracy. They are foisting laws on their country that their citizens may or may not like or want. 
Quite the same with Pakistan - horrible laws like the hudood ordinances were brought about by a dictator.
Thus i disagree with them.


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## Alpha1

Contrarian said:


> The sole reason why i eagerly agree to their laws is that they are a democracy. If they are passing a law, it means the majority of the people of that country want this law.
> 
> But I disagree with laws in other countries like Saudi Arabia - is because they are NOT a democracy. They are foisting laws on their country that their citizens may or may not like or want.
> Quite the same with Pakistan - horrible laws like the hudood ordinances were brought about by a dictator.
> Thus i disagree with them.


even *IF* they are better and more free than made my democracy

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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> @Vinod2070 what rights? *we cant have open athaan nor can we pray openly....but church bells in UK, Italy, Spain some other parts of central and south Europe and some of the other countries can ring in to bring more tourists?*  Empty churches are rented by Muslims for their prayers otherwise the buildings would have needed to break their historical structures....



Why do you need to pray *openly*?

Praying in mosques and homes is not good enough?

They are Judo-Christian countries. Church bells go with that.



> What rights? the basic right to pray, call to prayer is taken, now basic right to dress is being challenged under the word FREEDOM !



Aren't you exaggerating? There are so many mosques everywhere in Europe. No one is stopping you.

Just that you seem to want ever more.

Did you (and other Muslims) ever complain about how it is in Islamic countries where the rights of non Muslims and even other Muslim sects are non existent for the most part?

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## Dubious

Contrarian said:


> The sole reason why i eagerly agree to their laws is that they are a democracy. If they are passing a law, it means the majority of the people of that country want this law.
> 
> But I disagree with laws in other countries like Saudi Arabia - is because they are NOT a democracy. They are foisting laws on their country that their citizens may or may not like or want.
> Quite the same with Pakistan - horrible laws like the hudood ordinances were brought about by a dictator.
> Thus i disagree with them.


 @Contrarian well, then Saudis should declare they are democrats as they are clearly doing what democrats in EU are doing


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## illusion8

anonymus said:


> The french, Belgians and dutch are not banning burka because they hate it or are concerned about handful of their citizens not integrating or because burka is a security threat.Irrespective of what reason they give,the reason that they are banning burka is because it is a symbol.
> 
> It is a symbol of segregation but that issue is secondary as nobody cares if someone decides to segregates himself.Criminals and mental patients are forced to segregate and this concern of dis-segregation does not arise in their case.
> 
> The act of burka banning is directly related to supremacism and nose thumping done by the likes of anjem chaudhary and rioters of Marseilles and Paris.The supremacist ideology of radicals entice in its opponent emotions ranging from fear-hatred-disgust.A burka clad women in this scenario is subconsciously constructed as an enemy combatant,an active agent of civil disobedience which needs to be nullified.
> 
> It is an counter assertion of power by Europeans in face of propaganda and nose thumping by Islamic radicals and their insecurities and disgust at being outnumbered (because of propaganda being more shrill).The excuse whether of Secularism or equality or democracy are just excuses and are thrown to explain something whose explanation is more baser.
> 
> It is the reason that france has problem with just 200 burka clad women and why argument of any party does not makes complete sense.
> @Vinod2070 @Contrarian @Talon @ZYXW



So what you are saying is they construe it as an foreign invasion on their way of life...is it?


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## anonymus

illusion8 said:


> So what you are saying is they construe it as an foreign invasion on their way of life...is it?



Kind of,

The excuse of secularism always stood on shaky ground.Usually people use heavy and ambiguous terms to defend something which is much simple but has some self made taboo associated in admission.

more precise would be the catharsis that comes from exercising power on people whom you consider hostile.

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## ZYXW

Talon said:


> @ZYXW EXACTLY....after calling themselves Secular they malign the word!!
> 
> THAT is all I am against!! Not against them banning face veil for security reasons...but against them corrupting or having double standards!!



Sorry I read this incorrectly the first time LOL

But yes I agree with this tooo LOLOLOL calling it a secular country and then making laws like these.....if it's seperate then why does the government have the right to do this....i get you completely


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## Dubious

Vinod2070 said:


> Why do you need to pray *openly*?
> 
> Praying in mosques and homes is not good enough?
> 
> They are Judo-Christian countries. Church bells go with that.



Because of the increasing population, they need more space....

So, IF they can ring their church bells according to FREEDOM OF RIGHTS the Masjids should be allowed to give the call to prayer too..If you say it is disturbing...so is the ringing of the bells every hour or every 30 mins as the case of Spain and Italy and other Eastern European countries....



Vinod2070 said:


> Aren't you exaggerating? There are so many mosques everywhere in Europe. No one is stopping you.


 Yes, there are many masjids BUT we are not allowed to have the athaan played out loud...No exaggeration at all.. @Audio did you forget to tell them this point?



Vinod2070 said:


> Just that you seem to want ever more.


 Not at all...Basic rights which were promised in the constitution is all I ask for...Right to practice my religion no discrimination



Vinod2070 said:


> Did you (and other Muslims) ever complain about how it is in Islamic countries where the reights of non Muslims and even other Muslim sects are non existent for the most part?



Right now the thread is not about what Islamic countries are doing...Like you said they are not practicing secular law nor are they democrats....But my question is simple

I am saying WHERE is the difference between the secular law and DEMOCRATIC countries ??

IF secular countries can say impose certain stuff....why voice out at non secular and non democratic countries? They are doing the same only in open not under the SECULAR and DEMOCRATIC umbrella!



anonymus said:


> Kind of,
> 
> The excuse of secularism always stood on shaky ground.Usually people use heavy and ambiguous terms to defend something which is much simple but has some self made taboo associated in admission.
> 
> more precise would be the catharsis that comes from exercising power on people whom you consider hostile.


 @anonymus *more or less * what I have been talking about  but you said it loud and clear...


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## Dubious

Nice talking to everyone...But I have a real life so need to do some stuff

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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> Because of the increasing population, they need more space....
> 
> So, IF they can ring their church bells according to FREEDOM OF RIGHTS the Masjids should be allowed to give the call to prayer too..If you say it is disturbing...so is the ringing of the bells every hour or every 30 mins as the case of Spain and Italy and other Eastern European countries....



Why don't you realize that these countries have a Judeo Christian heritage with Greco-Roman civilization underpinnings?

You can't come on and expect them to change it all, just because you demand it?



> Yes, there are many masjids BUT we are not allowed to have the athaan played out loud...No exaggeration at all.. @Audio did you forget to tell them this point?
> 
> Not at all...Basic rights which were promised in the constitution is all I ask for...Right to practice my religion no discrimination



They are perfectly entitled to ban Athan on loudspeakers. If it is too much, people can make the choice to move back.



> Right now the thread is not about what Islamic countries are doing...*Like you said they are not practicing secular law nor are they democrats*....But my question is simple
> 
> I am saying WHERE is the difference between the secular law and DEMOCRATIC countries ??
> 
> IF secular countries can say impose certain stuff....why voice out at non secular and non democratic countries? They are doing the same only in open not under the SECULAR and DEMOCRATIC umbrella!



That doesn't give them a free license to do anything in their own countries.

And demand the opposite from non Muslims in theirs?

Muslims need to start giving the same rights in their own countries that they demand from others.

Currently they are getting away with too much because of political correctness in the secular democracies.

Your victim complex is self created and completely at odds with the reality of the situation.


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## Argus Panoptes

Talon said:


> @Argus Panoptes* NOTHING many have already* have you heard of Rich Muslim vows to pay all French burka fines | News | The Week UK



@Talon, It is good that rich Muslims will pay the fines, but it is more important that those fines are not imposed at all. I want to see what is the outcome of the cases that you say many have filed with the courts, and what reasoning the courts give to support their verdicts.



ZYXW said:


> The answer is that they can't ban either. No government should ever be given that right. It should not be the government's job to decide any of those things!!


 @ZYXW, So whose right is it to defend public morals and who defines them, if not the government? Are you saying that people who are against the veil ban in France should also speak out against the ban of bikinis by many Muslim states, equally?

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## ZYXW

Argus Panoptes said:


> @Talon, It is good that rich Muslims will pay the fines, but it is more important that those fines are not imposed at all. I want to see what is the outcome of the cases that you say many have filed with the courts, and what reasoning the courts give to support their verdicts.
> 
> 
> @ZYXW, So whose right is it to defend public morals and who defines them, if not the government? Are you saying that people who are against the veil ban in France should also speak out against the ban of bikinis by many Muslim states, equally?



Yes they should!!! Just because something is happening in another country doesn't mean that it is not our problem...... public morals and define them....no the government's job should just be to enforce them and keep order, let the public decide their own morals and define them.

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## Agnostic_Indian

Talon said:


> @Caucasian Albania I agree....But, if some want to wear it, should their freedom be suppressed ?



yes certainly ! individual freedom is not absolute freedom.I support only the full face covering dress for security reasons, everything else is an unnecessary encroachment of freedom of citizen, it can't be defended saying majority opinion or their country their rule arguments, majority opinion can go wrong.


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## Contrarian

Talon said:


> @Contrarian well, then Saudis should declare they are democrats as they are clearly doing what democrats in EU are doing



If Saudi Arabia becomes a true democracy and passes those exact same laws then it becomes no problem.


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## Dillinger

ZYXW said:


> Yes they should!!! Just because something is happening in another country doesn't mean that it is not our problem...... public morals and define them....no the government's job should just be to enforce them and keep order, let the public decide their own morals and define them.



Here's the thing, most countries get to define what they find acceptable and what they don't.How long did the states take to take a benign view on same sex marriage? Years, now they've come around perhaps. France's core population is still extant despite expats and emigrants, if they feel that something is contrary to their ethos then why should we mind. Recently a French Minister also issued a statement that any person who would promote extremism in the name of Islam would be deported- there's a thread running on it. Lets face it all countries adjudicate based on their sense of morality even the States and especially Islamic countries. And obviously people will draw a comparison, they will say, "if we were citizens of the countries where these people hail from we would not be given equal rights in most cases so why should we give them the same?" You and I may not agree with that line of thought but that's how the collective thinking goes- its always simplistic when its macro-cosmic. 

But I believe that before someone sitting in India or Pakistan declares the French barbaric for this, let us remember in France you're not liable to have a mob lynch you just because you insulted someone's god or sensibilities.

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## CrazyPaki

Talon said:


> @Contrarian well, then Saudis should declare they are democrats as they are clearly doing what democrats in EU are doing


lol they would need to ask Americans first before making a decision like that


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## Dubious

Contrarian said:


> If Saudi Arabia becomes a true democracy and passes those exact same laws then it becomes no problem.


 @Contrarian
WOW!!!! talk about hypocrisy to the extreme!! Just by changing the name of the system you can suppress who you will?!


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## Contrarian

Talon said:


> @Contrarian
> WOW!!!! talk about hypocrisy to the extreme!! Just by changing the name of the system you can suppress who you will?!



Talon, the sole purpose of a Government is to serve the people who reside in that nation.
If the majority of the people of that nation want a law then it is the government's duty to enforce it.

This is applicable as long as the actions of that government does not cause problems to other countries.


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## Agnostic_Indian

Contrarian said:


> Talon, the sole purpose of a Government is to serve the people who reside in that nation.
> If the majority of the people of that nation want a law then it is the government's duty to enforce it.
> 
> This is applicable as long as the actions of that government does not cause problems to other countries.



it's will of of the people agreed, but majority peoples will doesn't mean it is always the right thing to do, sometimes good governance is also doing the right thing even if it is against the will of the majority. we can't challenge or change their decisions, what we can do is to apply our rationality and logic and discuss whether or not it is right thing to do or not, irrespective of popularity of particular decision.

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## Dubious

Vinod2070 said:


> Why don't you realize that these countries have a *Judeo Christian heritage* with Greco-Roman civilization underpinnings?
> 
> You can't come on and expect them to change it all, just because you demand it?


 @Vinod2070
Can I say the same about Islamic states...at least they are up front and not hiding behind a newly coined term called Secularism ....




Vinod2070 said:


> That doesn't give them a free license to do anything in their own countries.


 But it gives Judeo Christian heritage free license to do as they will? Just because they have nicely fooled the world by using the word Secularism and Democratic? My only request is ....EITHER down with that word and do what they are doing now...or stick to the word but live it...no middle way!


Vinod2070 said:


> And demand the opposite from non Muslims in theirs?
> 
> Muslims need to start giving the same rights in their own countries that they demand from others.


 Muslim countries are not hiding under secularism...they openly say they are MUSLIM COUNTRIES...they are not lying to the world...


Vinod2070 said:


> Currently they are getting away with too much because of political correctness in the *secular democracies.*
> 
> Your victim complex is self created and completely at odds with the reality of the situation.


 Secular yet we are suppressed....Democratic yet our voices are not heard and have no rights for anything?

Well, no victim complex here...truth is what it is...


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## Contrarian

Agnostic_Indian said:


> it's will of of the people agreed, but majority peoples will doesn't mean it is always the right thing to do, sometimes good governance is also doing the right thing even if it is against the will of the majority. we can't challenge or change their decisions, what we can do is to apply our rationality and logic and discuss whether or not it is right thing to do or not, irrespective of popularity of particular decision.



I didnt say it was the right thing to do. I said it is their right to do so.
If the action is illogical, then the people have to be explained why what they are demanding is wrong. And if the people agree it is ok. If they insist, then it becomes the moral duty of the government to implement that action or resign.


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## Dubious

Agnostic_Indian said:


> yes certainly ! individual freedom is not absolute freedom.I support only the full face covering dress for security reasons, everything else is an unnecessary encroachment of freedom of citizen, it can't be defended saying majority opinion or their country their rule arguments, majority opinion can go wrong.


 @Agnostic_Indian yet when it came to the cartoonists all of you were thanking the poster for showing individual freedom who wanted it to be absolute? AGAIN double standards!


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## Contrarian

Talon said:


> @Vinod2070
> *Secular yet we are suppressed....Democratic yet our voices are not heard and have no rights for anything?*
> 
> Well, no victim complex here...truth is what it is...


You are neither suppressed nor are your voices muzzled.

You have the right to vote. 1 vote per person is your democratic right. Use it. 
The people of France also have this right and they have made their choices clear through their elected representatives.


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## Dubious

Contrarian said:


> Talon, the sole purpose of a Government is to serve the people who reside in that nation.
> If the majority of the people of that nation want a law then it is the government's duty to enforce it.
> 
> This is applicable as long as the actions of that government does not cause problems to other countries.


 @Contrarian that is the whole thing....There is no majority...the law was as much of a shock to the normal people as to the Muslims....
Secondly, then they should not call themselves Secular....nor democrats if they give no voice to the others...They should just call themselves Asians!



Contrarian said:


> I didnt say it was the right thing to do. I said it is their right to do so.
> If the action is illogical, then the people have to be explained why what they are demanding is wrong. And if the people agree it is ok. If they insist, then it becomes the moral duty of the government to implement that action or resign.


 @Contrarian were the governments soo transparent, there would be no economical crises at the level we are facing now! There would also not be corruption at the level that is seen now...



Contrarian said:


> You are neither suppressed nor are your voices muzzled.
> 
> You have the right to vote. 1 vote per person is your democratic right. Use it.
> The people of France also have this right and they have made their choices clear through their elected representatives.


 @Contrarian I am not bothered about all these.. ALL I AM SAYING IS ....if you declare secularism...LIVE BY IT....if you declare DEMOCRATIC VIEWS LIVE BY IT....dont hang in the middle being secular democrats at will and oppresses of others at will...

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## Alpha1

Secularism exposed big time..


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## Cloakedvessel

Talon said:


> @Contrarian that is the whole thing....There is no majority...the law was as much of a shock to the normal people as to the Muslims....



You don't seem to know what you are talking about.



> A survey by the Pew Research Center&#8217;s Global Attitudes Project, conducted April 7 to May 8, finds that the French public overwhelmingly endorses this measure; *82% approve of a ban* on Muslim women wearing full veils in public, including schools, hospitals and government offices, while just 17% disapprove.1



Widespread Support For Banning Full Islamic Veil in Western Europe | Pew Global Attitudes Project

It's even higher today for an extension of the law:



> The survey, which was conducted by French marketing and opinion centre BVA and published in the daily &#8220;Le Parisien&#8221; on Monday, found that 86 percent of French people back introducing legislation that would ban &#8220;all signs of religious or political affiliation&#8221; in private schools and nurseries.



Poll shows French back veil ban in private sector - FRANCE - FRANCE 24


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## Agnostic_Indian

Talon said:


> @Agnostic_Indian yet when it came to the cartoonists all of you were thanking the poster for showing individual freedom who wanted it to be absolute? AGAIN double standards!



no contradictions there, I am all for drawing cartoons of muhmad, Jesus, or Hindu gods in good taste, good humour and good criticism, I am against racial, nude cartoons of prophet , etc.if a particular cartoon is vulgar, or offensive concerned parties can approach court, and sue the cartoonist and magazine but saying you can't make cartoons of muhmad at all is an encroachment to artistic freedom.each party should keep their own freedom and boundary of that freedom.


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## Dubious

Agnostic_Indian said:


> no contradictions there, I am all for drawing cartoons of muhmad, Jesus, or Hindu gods in good taste, good humour and good criticism, I am against racial, nude cartoons of prophet , etc.if a particular cartoon is vulgar, or offensive concerned parties can approach court, and sue the cartoonist and magazine but saying you can't make cartoons of muhmad at all is an encroachment to artistic freedom.each party should keep their own freedom and boundary of that freedom.


 @Agnostic_Indian soo vulgar is bad but mockery is fine?

so you support what YOU thing is fine not what OTHERS may feel about it?



Cloakedvessel said:


> You don't seem to know what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> Widespread Support For Banning Full Islamic Veil in Western Europe | Pew Global Attitudes Project
> 
> It's even higher today for an extension of the law:
> 
> 
> 
> Poll shows French back veil ban in private sector - FRANCE - FRANCE 24


 @Cloakedvessel All I am saying is EU either should change its constitution and say they are NOT TOLERANT and THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREEDOM for others (immigrants or other religions) EXCEPT that for those who belong to a certain classification such as a mocking cartoonist....OR stick WITH WHAT SECULAR DEMOCRAT *actually *means!


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## Agnostic_Indian

Contrarian said:


> I didnt say it was the right thing to do. I said it is their right to do so.
> If the action is illogical, then the people have to be explained why what they are demanding is wrong. And if the people agree it is ok. If they insist, then it becomes the moral duty of the government to implement that action or resign.



I don't think govt should work like that, govt should try to do the right thing with in their limits even if it is against the will of the people, I agree that no govt can take extreme measures against the will of the people but certainly there is a considerable room for maneuver.in this case it was a govt initiative rather than govt submitting to public demand or protest.

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## Agnostic_Indian

Talon said:


> @Agnostic_Indian soo vulgar is bad but mockery is fine?
> 
> so you support what YOU thing is fine not what OTHERS may feel about it?






mockery is a wrong word to describe a good cartoon with humour and constructive criticism, often people who are being drawn and criticised also enjoy the humour in the cartoon and appreciate it.

everybody got there own likes and dislikes it's subjective that's why I said people who feel that a particular cartoon is offensive they can approach the court.


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## Dubious



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## Agnostic_Indian

(New York, February 27, 2004)&#8212;The proposed French law banning Islamic headscarves and other visible religious symbols in state schools would violate the rights to freedom of religion and expression, Human Rights Watch said today. The law, which forbids &#8220;signs and dress that conspicuously show the religious affiliation of students,&#8221; will be debated in the French Senate on March 2.&#8220;The proposed law is an unwarranted infringement on the right to religious practice,&#8221; said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. &#8220;For many Muslims, wearing a headscarf is not only about religious expression, it is about religious obligation.&#8221;International human rights law obliges state authorities to avoid coercion in matters of religious freedom, and this obligation must be taken into account when devising school dress codes. The proposed prohibition on headscarves in France, as with laws in some Muslim countries that force girls to wear headscarves in schools, violates this principle.Under international law, states can only limit religious practices when there is a compelling public safety reason, when the manifestation of religious beliefs would impinge on the rights of others, or when it serves a legitimate educational function (such as prohibiting practices that preclude student-teacher interaction). Muslim headscarves, Sikh turbans, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses&#8212;which are among the visible religious symbols that would be prohibited&#8212;do not pose a threat to public health, order or morals; they have no effect on the fundamental rights and freedoms of other students; and they do not undermine a school&#8217;s educational function.Some supporters of the proposed law&#8212;known as the &#8220;Draft law concerning the application of the principle of secularism in schools, junior high schools and high schools,&#8221; which would come into force in September&#8212;believe it is necessary to uphold the separation of church and state in education, and to protect the secular state from the perceived threat of religious fundamentalism, particularly Islamic fundamentalism.However, protecting the right of all students to religious freedom does not undermine secularism in schools. On the contrary, it demonstrates respect for religious diversity, a position fully consistent with maintaining the strict separation of public institutions from any particular religious message. Human Rights Watch recognizes the legitimacy of public institutions seeking not to promote any religion via their conduct or statements, but the French government has taken this a step further by suggesting that the state is undermining secularism if it allows students to wear religious symbols.Supporters of the law have also defended the ban on the grounds that it will protect Muslim girls from being forced or pressured to wear the headscarf by their parents. Under international law, states must respect the responsibilities, rights and duties of parents to provide, in a manner consistent with the evolving capacities of the child, appropriate direction and guidance in the child&#8217;s exercise of their basic rights. States must also take all appropriate measures to ensure that children are protected against discrimination or punishment on the basis of the beliefs of their parents or family members. At the same time, states are responsible for taking appropriate legislative, administrative, social and educational measures to protect children where parents are responsible for physical or mental violence, injury or abuse, neglect or negligent treatment, maltreatment or exploitation, including sexual abuse. Unnecessary restrictions on children&#8217;s personal rights and freedoms should not be promoted as a means of child protection.The impact of a ban on visible religious symbols, even though phrased in neutral terms, will fall disproportionately on Muslim girls, and thus violate antidiscrimination provisions of international human rights law as well as the right to equal educational opportunity. Indeed, the promotion of understanding and tolerance for such differences in values is a key aspect of enforcement of the right to education. In practice, the law will leave some Muslim families no choice but to remove girls from the state educational system.Some in France have used the headscarf issue as a pretext for voicing anti-immigrant andanti-Muslim sentiments. Some arguments appear to be based on the premise that allMuslims want to oppress women, or that women and girls who choose to veil do not understand women&#8217;s rights. Public debate has also touched on many other significant social issues: religious fundamentalism and political uses of religious symbols; oppression of girls and women; levels of immigration; discrimination and lack of economic opportunity for immigrant communities; pluralism and national integration.&#8220;The proposed law has raised important issues about religious freedom and the role of the state in France,&#8221; said Roth. &#8220;The resolution of this issue will have important implications throughout Europe and beyond. But simply banning headscarves and other expressions of religious belief from the schools is not the answer.&#8221;

France: Headscarf Ban Violates Religious Freedom | Human Rights Watch


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## Raja.Pakistani

Agnostic_Indian said:


> hiding face is a threat, because it gives the anti social the advantage of anonymity, in my state there is rule which prevents using window tint for vehicles, because of the same reason.
> one could ask can't the police check the vehicles but that is not practical all the time, same is the case here, police can't go behind people to check the faces, banning full face cover saves lot of work for police,and people also recognise who is who and that also helps to public safety, in case something wrong happens CCTV Cameras can be checked to identify people if their face is not covered.
> now can a long coat be used to hide explosives, yes and if required that also can be banned, but it's a call which is to be made according to the threat perception,practicality, inconvenience caused to people, and wisdom of law makers, you can't argue that it's a hypocrisy that they didn't ban big coats but only face cover.



My friend Hooded tops , every kind of mask, face painting, hats, glasses, long jackets/coats or any stuff which people use to cover their face/ear/nose in cold winter etc also make it difficult to be identified in case of crime. Why don&#8217;t go for banning all these stuffs if some criminal could misuse them?

Mobile/internet can also be used by criminals to commit certain crimes then we should also go for banning these things even when majority of us use it for right purpose. Wine or drunk people can also be dangerous for safety of public because rape or serious accident could happen if you are too drunk then why don&#8217;t ban wine? No instead Government will spend million to protect this right of people and will appoint extra policemen at mid night to look after drunk people or for safety of general public. Its Irony that people are feeling threatened with one extra piece of clothes but never stop expansion of nuclear weapons which killed millions 

MR Nicolas Sarkozy did not gave same reasoning for banning the burqa/veil 
*
&#8220;I want to say solemnly, the burka is not welcome in France. In our country, we can't accept women prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity. That is not our idea of freedom."* 

How could he speak on behalf of all Muslim women and to assume that they are feeling oppressive or prisoners when they wear it by their own free will or choice. Its not right for champions of freedom and equality to support any kind of ban on an individual's choice of dress. If muslim woman is not happy with the burka then she is alright. If she is happy with the burka then she is a radical

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## Raja.Pakistani

Vinod2070 said:


> It is a symbolic step in the right direction.
> 
> It is not against any religion, just trying to uphold the country's cultural values of dignity of women.



women's "dignity" ? 

Since when is it "dignified" to peel off a womans clothing and commoditize her body for the world to ogle and wow at as a piece of artwork? 

What if a woman chooses to do the absolute opposite i.e wear layers of clothing that gives this clear message to men: "hands off", "eyes off" and last but not least "back off" ?

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## JayAtl

This is what happens when the followers of a religion take it too far- that they get slapped back with such laws. France was not bothered about this 3 decades ago. It's the last 2 decades that Muslims have the radicals that have taken over as the face of the religion- leading to such counter reactions. I don't what it is about the followers but seems like somehow they expect everyone to kow tow to their religious demands. Europe is to blame with its relaxed attitudes that allow these radicals too many rights


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## Agnostic_Indian

Raja.Pakistani said:


> My friend Hooded tops , every kind of mask, face painting, hats, glasses, long jackets/coats or any stuff which people use to cover their face/ear/nose in cold winter etc also make it difficult to be identified in case of crime. Why don&#8217;t go for banning all these stuffs if some criminal could misuse them?
> 
> Mobile/internet can also be used by criminals to commit certain crimes then we should also go for banning these things even when majority of us use it for right purpose. Wine or drunk people can also be dangerous for safety of public because rape or serious accident could happen if you are too drunk then why don&#8217;t ban wine? No instead Government will spend million to protect this right of people and will appoint extra policemen at mid night to look after drunk people or for safety of general public. Its Irony that people are feeling threatened with one extra piece of clothes but never stop expansion of nuclear weapons which killed millions
> 
> MR Nicolas Sarkozy did not gave same reasoning for banning the burqa/veil
> *
> &#8220;I want to say solemnly, the burka is not welcome in France. In our country, we can't accept women prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity. That is not our idea of freedom."*
> 
> How could he speak on behalf of all Muslim women and to assume that they are feeling oppressive or prisoners when they wear it by their own free will or choice. Its not right for champions of freedom and equality to support any kind of ban on an individual's choice of dress. If muslim woman is not happy with the burka then she is alright. If she is happy with the burka then she is a radical



I am sorry to say that your arguments make absolutely no sense ! France banned all kind of face covering dress. painting masks etc are not used public places but in work places hope you understand the difference, and also every law, ban, clauses will have exceptions also because of practicality and inconvenience, priority reasons. 
you say why not ban wine, kitchen knife, mobile phone etc because that too could be used for crime ? then you could also ask why ban illegal arms and guns, explosives , large quantity of ganja, drunken driving,hate speeches, because that is also a restriction of freedom ? 

Remove the lense of religious bias and see, restrictions and exceptions in restrictions, regulations etc are imposed according to threat perception, public inconvenience caused, vulnerability of misuse, practicality, and whole lot of things, it's done after much brainstorming and debates and fine tuning of clauses. what you are arguing is either allow complete freedom or ban everything including a shaving razor, that's a stupid argument to make.


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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> @Vinod2070
> Can I say the same about Islamic states...at least they are up front and not hiding behind a newly coined term called Secularism ....
> 
> But it gives Judeo Christian heritage free license to do as they will? Just because they have nicely fooled the world by using the word Secularism and Democratic? My only request is ....EITHER down with that word and do what they are doing now...or stick to the word but live it...no middle way!
> Muslim countries are not hiding under secularism...they openly say they are MUSLIM COUNTRIES...they are not lying to the world...
> Secular yet we are suppressed....Democratic yet our voices are not heard and have no rights for anything?
> 
> Well, no victim complex here...truth is what it is...



If your Islamic heritage gives you a free license, why not others are entitled to their own license?

Even the Islamic countries claim to follow the "final and perfect" Islamic law. They also claim that Islam gives the maximum rights to minorities.

Is that the reality on the ground?

You are too hung up on the words "secular" and "democratic" and what you assume they should mean and how they should be implemented.

Without ever wanting to implement them in your own Islamic countries!

These concepts come from a certain value system. When that value system is perceived to be under attack, people will take the measures they deem necessary to protect it, if they value it enough.

It is clear that you don't give a damn that Muslim countries are so oppressive towards their minorities and even Muslim sects.

All you are interested in is in making ever increasing demands on those who have given you more than you could ever get in your own country or in any Islamic country.

I think that is hypocrisy. I don't support it.

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## Vinod2070

Raja.Pakistani said:


> women's "dignity" ?
> 
> Since when is it "dignified" to peel off a womans clothing and commoditize her body for the world to ogle and wow at as a piece of artwork?
> 
> What if a woman chooses to do the absolute opposite i.e wear layers of clothing that gives this clear message to men: "hands off", "eyes off" and last but not least "back off" ?



You guys tend to define the issue in your own terms which have nothing to do with reality.

First of all, they have a different culture. In their culture women are not looked at as having some sort of mysterious powers, such that merely looking at her face or even ankles will make the men raving madmen.

In your own culture, open discourse and friendship between the sexes is impossible, not in the culture you chose to emigrate to.

The others actually feel that it is in Muslim culture that the women are treated as commodities, with no free will, as "naqisul aqal" and it is all apparently sanctioned by the divine.

You need to open your mind to the culture you have chosen to move to.

Not expect them to adapt to yours. If you like it so much, you can make a decision to move back.

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## JayAtl

Vinod2070 said:


> You guys tend to define the issue in your own terms which have nothing to do with reality.
> 
> First of all, they have a different culture. In their culture women are not looked at as having some sort of mysterious powers, such that merely looking at her face or even ankles will make the men raving madmen.
> 
> In your own culture, open discourse and friendship between the sexes is impossible, not in the culture you chose to emigrate to.
> 
> The others actually feel that it is in Muslim culture that the women are treated as commodities, with no free will, as "naqisul aqal" and it is all apparently sanctioned by the divine.
> 
> You need to open your mind to the culture you have chosen to move to.
> 
> Not expect them to adapt to yours. If you like it so much, you can make a decision to move back.



So true. In fact abuses against women seem to be highest among such oppressive thinkers- who seem to lecture others about morality

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## Rangila

> There are 7 countries in the world where the state can execute you for being atheist. Every single one is officially Islamic.



If they can do these things, why not other countries, as for as laws are concerned.


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## Dubious

Vinod2070 said:


> If your Islamic heritage gives you a free license, why not others are entitled to their own license?
> 
> Even the Islamic countries claim to follow the "final and perfect" Islamic law. They also claim that Islam gives the maximum rights to minorities.
> 
> Is that the reality on the ground?
> 
> You are too hung up on the words "secular" and "democratic" and what you assume they should mean and how they should be implemented.
> 
> Without ever wanting to implement them in your own Islamic countries!
> 
> These concepts come from a certain value system. When that value system is perceived to be under attack, people will take the measures they deem necessary to protect it, if they value it enough.
> 
> It is clear that you don't give a damn that Muslim countries are so oppressive towards their minorities and even Muslim sects.
> 
> All you are interested in is in making ever increasing demands on those who have given you more than you could ever get in your own country or in any Islamic country.
> 
> I think that is hypocrisy. I don't support it.


 @Vinod2070 Why are you mad? I made myself clear from the 1st few posts....I am ONLY interested in the MISUSE of the words "democracy" and "secularism"

Because when Indians throw it at Pakistanis...they give us the "FREEDOM" speech....But when FREEDOM is curbed in the very countries proclaiming to PRACTICE these words.....it is overlooked?! NOW THAT IS hypocrisy at its best!

I do not want to bring Islamic countries in because they do not PROCLAIM themselves as either DEMOCRATS nor SECULAR! If they did...then them oppressing or what not should be questioned! Because SECULAR DEMOCRATS was coined to show that the MUSLIMS are backwards....Now if that is the case...the same word seems to be showing oppression which is being done in everyother country so what is soo great about secular democrat?! THAT was my main discussion...

EVERYONE else brought their own concepts in but never answered MY QUESTION!

Besides THIS thread is about FRANCE an EU nation...I am not sure why everyone keeps dragging EVERYTHING else except WHAT the topic is about...


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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> @Vinod2070 Why are you mad? I made myself clear from the 1st few posts....I am ONLY interested in the MISUSE of the words "democracy" and "secularism"
> 
> Because when Indians throw it at Pakistanis...they give us the "FREEDOM" speech....But when FREEDOM is curbed in the very countries proclaiming to PRACTICE these words.....it is overlooked?! NOW THAT IS hypocrisy at its best!
> 
> I do not want to bring Islamic countries in because they do not PROCLAIM themselves as either DEMOCRATS nor SECULAR! If they did...then them oppressing or what not should be questioned! Because SECULAR DEMOCRATS was coined to show that the MUSLIMS are backwards....Now if that is the case...the same word seems to be showing oppression which is being done in everyother country so what is soo great about secular democrat?! THAT was my main discussion...
> 
> EVERYONE else brought their own concepts in but never answered MY QUESTION!



I am not. I am just saying that don't get too hung up on some words.

It is actions that matter more than words.

You can't get away by claiming that we are exempt from treating our minorities better.

This will not fly madam. You need to give to others what you claim for yourself.



> they do not PROCLAIM themselves as either DEMOCRATS nor SECULAR! If they did...then them oppressing or what not should be questioned!


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## Dubious

Vinod2070 said:


> I am not. I am just saying that don't get too hung up on some words.
> 
> It is actions that matter more than words.
> 
> You can't get away by claiming that we are exempt from treating our minorities better.
> 
> This will not fly madam. *You need to give to others what you claim for yourself.*


 @Vinod2070 maybe you should take this to the UN court ....and ask them to actually practice what they preach to the Middle east and Asia...


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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> @Vinod2070 maybe you should take this to the UN court ....and ask them to actually practice what they preach to the Middle east and Asia...



Absolutely.

So is it the "preaching" that seems to be the issue here or the actual actions of the countries involved?

Would it make you feel better if they stopped calling themselves secular and democratic?

How will it change anything on the ground?

*Bottom line: Implement in Islamic countries what you demand in non Islamic ones.

No getting away from this uncomfortable reality. More and more in the future, you will be held to this premise.*


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## Dubious

Vinod2070 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> So is it the "preaching" that seems to be the issue here or the actual actions of the countries involved?
> 
> Would it make you feel better if they stopped calling themselves secular and democratic?
> 
> How will it change anything on the ground?
> 
> *Bottom line: Implement in Islamic countries what you demand in non Islamic ones.
> 
> No getting away from this uncomfortable reality. More and more in the future, you will be held to this premise.*


 @Vinod2070 please stick to the topic please or I will be forced to ask moderators to close this thread as it is getting off topic....

From EU people just want to jump into Middle East...



Vinod2070 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> So is it the "preaching" that seems to be the issue here or the actual actions of the countries involved?
> 
> Would it make you feel better if they stopped calling themselves secular and democratic?
> 
> How will it change anything on the ground?


 @Vinod2070 If I pick up an apple and call it orange and expect the world to believe me and actually get away with fooling half the world....I would feel the world is a fool and would buy anything I will say and next I will say a banana is a strawberry and everyone will just node? When someone questions this ...others try to support the liar by telling that someone else chopped the banana with a butcher knife rather than a fruit knife? 

2 different topics....I am not sure if you understood....


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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> @Vinod2070 please stick to the topic please or I will be forced to ask moderators to close this thread as it is getting off topic....
> 
> From EU people just want to jump into Middle East...
> 
> @Vinod2070 If I pick up an apple and call it orange and expect the world to believe me and actually get away with fooling half the world....I would feel the world is a fool and would buy anything I will say and next I will say a banana is a strawberry and everyone will just node? When someone questions this ...others try to support the liar by telling that someone else chopped the banana with a butcher knife rather than a fruit knife?
> 
> 2 different topics....I am not sure if you understood....



Madam, it is the topic. I know it is getting uncomfortable for you. You would rather just blame them non Muslims and feel so much better at passing yet another test.

Others look at it completely differently and at least you should try and understand that.


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## Dubious

Vinod2070 said:


> Madam, it is the topic. I know it is getting uncomfortable for you. You would rather just blame them non Muslims and feel so much better at passing yet another test.
> 
> Others look at it completely differently and at least you should try and understand that.


 @Vinod2070 Lolz....I am not uncomfortable with ANYTHING ....but you seem uncomfortable in admitting a lie when you see 1!!


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## Vinod2070

Talon said:


> @Vinod2070 Lolz....I am not uncomfortable with ANYTHING ....but you seem uncomfortable in admitting a lie when you see 1!!



OK, leaving aside the semantics and what one chooses to call oneself, let us understand why you think you should make demands on non Muslims in their countries that you won't fulfill in your own?

If all you have is: "But they call themselves secular and we call ourselves Islamic (as if that takes away all the responsibilities)", let's agree to disagree.

I will think of this position as hypocritical and you are welcome to think likewise.


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## $@rJen

ya... now Pakistan will make shaheen 2.0 to extend its missile reach to France....ha ha...


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## Cloakedvessel

Talon said:


> [MENTION=28941]
> @Cloakedvessel All I am saying is EU either should change its constitution and say they are NOT TOLERANT and THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREEDOM for others (immigrants or other religions) EXCEPT that for those who belong to a certain classification such as a mocking cartoonist....OR stick WITH WHAT SECULAR DEMOCRAT *actually *means!



EU has very little say on this French national matter. 

Your whole tirade is based on the redefining of the words democracy and secularism to your own needs. Interjecting the concept of tolerance here is also very shallow. 
Tolerance does not mean you you have to throw away your political institutions and philosophy just to please a certain group that wants a preferential treatment. The fact that Muslims can come to France and live in relative peace is a testimony of French commitment to diversity and tolerance. 
What makes you think that the French would want to adopt inherently flawed doctrines or would be impressed by stone age attitude that some Muslims display?
Why should the French people give up the liberties their forefathers died to sanctify? 
It wasn't easy separating religion and state in the first round. And now you think they should just give that up because a minority within a minority wants a special treatment?

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## anonymus

.................................


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## Raja.Pakistani

Vinod2070 said:


> You guys tend to define the issue in your own terms which have nothing to do with reality.
> 
> First of all, they have a different culture. In their culture women are not looked at as having some sort of mysterious powers, such that merely looking at her face or even ankles will make the men raving madmen.
> 
> In your own culture, open discourse and friendship between the sexes is impossible, not in the culture you chose to emigrate to.
> 
> The others actually feel that it is in Muslim culture that the women are treated as commodities, with no free will, as "naqisul aqal" and it is all apparently sanctioned by the divine.
> 
> You need to open your mind to the culture you have chosen to move to.
> 
> Not expect them to adapt to yours. If you like it so much, you can make a decision to move back.



Do you even know what you are talking about? It seem you are so blind in love for Islam/Muslim and bringing all this irrelevant points in here. If you really appreciate this act of France then why don't implement it in India? One one side you are appreciating/defending this act of France and one other side you tell us you that India is incredible and mahaan because it give Muslim women right/freedom of wearing veil

Who is asking french women/men to adopt veil or Islam or Arab/afghan culture? People are demanding this right for themselves not for others and they are not asking others to adopt their ways of life. How you guys define French culture? Do France have one culture and ways of life? French with Algerian/latin origin share same culture as those of white french? What about those native french who converted into Islam? How french culture differ to British culture?

I am sure if this discussion was about banning sari, holi/Diwali or any Indian dress or culural practice which also has nothing to do with french culture then you Indians would have different tone and reasoning. You are giving fatwa about us as if Indian man enjoy watching friendship of their daughter/sister with opposite gender or let them sleep with their bfs. Eastern society/countries are bit conservative compare to western no matter where they live and no matter whether they follow Hinduism/Sikhism/buddism/catholic beliefs 

People are not the property of governments and governments should not dictate how they should live. It is possible to be British/french yet have a distinct style of life at the same time. I dont see any problem in Britain because of multiculturalism where different people have kept their distinct culture/life style which include Indians as well who celebrate different cultural practices on street with pride and carry on fire works. According to your logic they all should give up their identity/culture. Indian girls should start wearing jeans and mini skirts instead of salwar kameez or sari . People like Sarzoki should ask sikh that they should get rid of turbun and beard because all they see on their face is hairs of beard/moustache


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## Vinod2070

Not going to repeat what I have already mentioned in this thread.

Just some points.



Raja.Pakistani said:


> Do you even know what you are talking about? It seem you are so blind in love for Islam/Muslim and bringing all this irrelevant points in here. If you really appreciate this act of France then why don't implement it in India? One one side you are appreciating/defending this act of France and one other side you tell us you that *India is incredible and mahaan because it give Muslim women right/freedom of wearing veil*



No. It is incredible and mahaan due to it's great civilization heritage and religious tolerance. Not necessarily due to what you may choose to decide.

In India, the vote bank politics stops many good things from being done, including the uniform civil code which is enshrined in the constitution. So let's not get there.



> Who is asking french women/men to adopt veil or Islam or Arab/afghan culture? People are demanding this right for themselves not for others and they are not asking others to adopt their ways of life. How you guys define French culture? Do France have one culture and ways of life? French with Algerian/latin origin share same culture as those of white french? What about those native french who converted into Islam? How french culture differ to British culture?



May be they have seen what is happening in UK with the Shariah demands and all. May be they don't want that in France.

I don't know.



> I am sure if this discussion was about banning sari, holi/Diwali or any Indian dress or culural practice which also has nothing to do with french culture then you Indians would have different tone and reasoning. You are giving fatwa about us as if Indian man enjoy watching friendship of their daughter/sister with opposite gender or let them sleep with their bfs. Eastern society/countries are bit conservative compare to western no matter where they live and no matter whether they follow Hinduism/Sikhism/buddism/catholic beliefs



They are not banning your namaaz or mosques. Just something that they feel is incompatible with their values.

You are overreacting.



> People are not the property of governments and governments should not dictate how they should live. It is possible to be British/french yet have a distinct style of life at the same time. I dont see any problem in Britain because of multiculturalism where different people have kept their distinct culture/life style which include Indians as well who celebrate different cultural practices on street with pride and carry on fire works. According to your logic they all should give up their identity/culture. Indian girls should start wearing jeans and mini skirts instead of salwar kameez or sari . People like Sarzoki should ask sikh that they should get rid of turbun and beard because all they see on their face is hairs of beard/moustache



No. You are misinterpreting (deliberately?) what I am saying.

In UK, some of you are already enforcing Shariah on locals already, abusing the Pope, their army etc. You may not "see any problem in Britain", many locals are definitely seeing a big problem with these Shariah demands, the immigrants who live on welfare and then turn on the host society like parasites. Look at the number of Pakistani Muslims who are trying to exploit the local girls.


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## Raja.Pakistani

Vinod2070 said:


> May be they have seen what is happening in UK with the Shariah demands and all. May be they don't want that in France.
> 
> 
> They are not banning your namaaz or mosques. Just something that they feel is incompatible with their values.
> 
> In UK, some of you are already enforcing Shariah on locals already, abusing the Pope, their army etc. You may not "see any problem in Britain", many locals are definitely seeing a big problem with these Shariah demands, the immigrants who live on welfare and then turn on the host society like parasites. Look at the number of Pakistani Muslims who are trying to exploit the local girls.



Now you are showing height of stupidity and ignorance with this fake video of some street thugs with background noises where even location is not clear . If 5 or 6 random guys shouting sharia sharia on streets of London would have implement sharia in there then we would have seen sharia in each European/African country because such few people exist in each country. We don't even see sharia in Pakistan/Afghanistan let alone UK. Pakistani public never elected any religious party in any general election and they were never in any Government 

This video and your naive approach is total BS. Its you who is overreacting. I am living in UK yea we saw 10 or less British Muslim in newspaper the sun, daily star who were gathered at one place and shouted sharia sharia but it was just empty noise nothing else. This demand was not reasonable considering the Muslim population of UK and also many things of sharia are already in there systems 

can they ask for this demand? sure they can because its not illegal .You can even demand communism for UK but would you get it? no unless you get involved in decision/policy making and get the public support/vote 

Another ignorance that immigrants are living on welfare. You cannot claim benefits in UK if you are immigrants and secondly if american can oppose bush or his war monger policies and even ex US marine speak against war crimes of bush and Blair then why not British nationals irrespective of their origin? Its their constitutional rights even if it give you pain and frustration and no Government is angel that people cannot criticize their policies/decisions

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## Vinod2070

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Now you are showing height of stupidity and ignorance with this fake video of some street thugs with background noises where even location is not clear . If 5 or 6 random guys shouting sharia sharia on streets of London would have implement sharia in there then we would have seen sharia in each European/African country because such few people exist in each country. We don't even see sharia in Pakistan/Afghanistan let alone UK. Pakistani public never elected any religious party in any general election and they were never in any Government
> 
> This video and your naive approach is total BS. Its you who is overreacting. I am living in UK yea we saw 10 or less British Muslim in newspaper the sun, daily star who were gathered at one place and shouted sharia sharia but it was just empty noise nothing else. This demand was not reasonable considering the Muslim population of UK and also many things of sharia are already in there systems
> 
> can they ask for this demand? sure they can because its not illegal .You can even demand communism for UK but would you get it? no unless you get involved in decision/policy making and get the public support/vote
> 
> Another ignorance that immigrants are living on welfare. You cannot claim benefits in UK if you are immigrants and secondly if american can oppose bush or his war monger policies and even ex US marine speak against war crimes of bush and Blair then why not British nationals irrespective of their origin? Its their constitutional rights even if it give you pain and frustration and no Government is angel that people cannot criticize their policies/decisions



If you can't go beyond personal attacks, it is your choice. Just shows your reality.

Let me repeat:

*It is clear that you don't give a damn that Muslim countries are so oppressive towards their minorities and even Muslim sects.

All you are interested in is in making ever increasing demands on those who have given you more than you could ever get in your own country or in any Islamic country.*

This hypocrisy will fly less and less with time. You will need to see the writing on the wall.

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## Audio

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Another ignorance that immigrants are living on welfare. You cannot claim benefits in UK if you are immigrants





> If you have Refugee Status or Exceptional Leave or Humanitarian Protection or Discretionary Leave in the UK you can claim all welfare benefits, subject to the &#8216;ordinary&#8217; rules, and you cannot be refused any benefit on the basis of your immigration status.



Welfare benefits



> UK was seventh worldwide, having received 25,500 in 2011.



Asylum-seekers around the world: where did they come from and where are they going? | News | guardian.co.uk

At least 25.500 immigrants eligible for welfare, making you a someone that does not know what he is talking about. Here's some more reading material:



> LONDON--U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron will signal a tougher stance on immigration Monday with measures to restrict foreigners' access to state support for unemployment, housing and health which aim to help cut net migration to the tens of thousands a year by 2015.



Read more: http://www.nasdaq.com/article/uk-to-clamp-down-on-immigrants-welfare-benefits-20130324-00030#ixzz2PxpEtxPq

My personal opinion is that while you present decent arguments, they can fly only to the crowd gathering at park benches smoking weed. Which i did too and it might have worked on me as well, but that was a long, long time ago.

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## fallstuff

This guys got every freaking right they have under the constitution to voice their opinion about what they want. Haters are gonna hate. Who gives a rats behind about that. 

Its a matter of administrative and/or legislative and/or judicial concern in Germany. If you care about what the hating idiot is bad mouthing about, you are not gonna get anything done in this world.


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## JohnSeb

Thorough Pro said:


> Sick. so much for their human rights, liberty and freedom. they are happy with their sisters and daughters going around naked. Proof enough that they not only have no moral values, they don't even have any respect for personal freedom. This is the outcome when the whole society is born out of wedlock. Bastards have no respect for anyone.



Then they shouldn't have gone to live in a country where there are no moral values, could have chosen Saudi Arabia instead, lot of moral values there...

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## Abu Zolfiqar

their country!
their laws!

that's all folks

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## fallstuff

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> their country!
> their laws!
> 
> that's all folks



Amen my brother !!!

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## Raja.Pakistani

Audio said:


> Welfare benefits
> 
> 
> 
> Asylum-seekers around the world: where did they come from and where are they going? | News | guardian.co.uk
> 
> At least 25.500 immigrants eligible for welfare, making you a someone that does not know what he is talking about. Here's some more reading material:
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.nasdaq.com/article/uk-to-clamp-down-on-immigrants-welfare-benefits-20130324-00030#ixzz2PxpEtxPq
> 
> My personal opinion is that while you present decent arguments, they can fly only to the crowd gathering at park benches smoking weed. Which i did too and it might have worked on me as well, but that was a long, long time ago.



You better have some research.There are different types of Visa for immigrants for example people on student visa, work visa, visitors, spouse visa or any others visa holders etc They cannot apply for benefits until they have indefinite leave or hold British nationality . It is clearly marked on their visa that " No resource to public funds" The only exception are refugees and asylum seekers who have granted asylum on humanitarian grounds or hold discretionary Leave. 

Its not easy to go and get benefits even if you hold British nationality. You have to prove that you are not able to find a job and have applied at many places and still cannot get a job. You are are trying to teach someone who has been working in this department for two years


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## Raja.Pakistani

Vinod2070 said:


> Let me repeat:
> 
> *It is clear that you don't give a damn that Muslim countries are so oppressive towards their minorities and even Muslim sects.
> 
> All you are interested in is in making ever increasing demands on those who have given you more than you could ever get in your own country or in any Islamic country.*



Let me Repeat

Indians always try to become the spokesperson of these countries when these countries don't give a **** about them and you never stop entertaining us with your stupid comments and generalization . I never met a single Pakistani who support oppression/intolerance or terrorism going on in Pakistani society. There is no cure of negativity exist in minds of Indians for Pakistan/Islam/Muslims and trust me i cannot do anything for people like you who prefer to be blind and deaf 

Another habit of Indians is that they try to compare apple with orange. How sane is to compare theocracy with secularism? We are discussing the western countries and their secular principles which differ to saudia Arabia or Iran and even to India in great extent. If UK or France would be christian republic of England/French then it might make sense to have comparison


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