# Top ten military powers?



## khanz

heres my list as honest and unbiased as possible not just based on nukes btw

1. USA
2. Russia
3. China
4. India
5. Uk
6. France
7. Israel
8. Pakistan
9. South korea
10.Turkey


post yours try to be objective guys !

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## Flintlock

Hey, I'm guessing that Russia should be behind China, and Uk, France should be above India?


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## salman nedian

I think Pakistan should be placed ahead of Israel.

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## mujahideen

salman nedian said:


> I think Pakistan should be placed ahead of Israel.



I would go one step further and say that Pakistan should be put in front of the U.K. as well. In reality we really cant give ranks. If I had my way I would out the U.S. at number three, they might have the numbers and most importantly the technology but their soldiers aren't that well motivated. I mean they are complaining in Iraq that it is too hot and they should be given air conditioners. When giving ranks many things must be considered. In my opinion some of those factors are the size of the force, the weapons(including nuclear weapons), the training of the soldier and also and in my opinion most important the faith that the people have in their Army.

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## su-47

mujahideen said:


> I would go one step further and say that Pakistan should be put in front of the U.K. as well. In reality we really cant give ranks. If I had my way I would out the U.S. at number three, they might have the numbers and most importantly the technology but their soldiers aren't that well motivated. I mean they are complaining in Iraq that it is too hot and they should be given air conditioners. When giving ranks many things must be considered. In my opinion some of those factors are the size of the force, the weapons(including nuclear weapons), the training of the soldier and also and in my opinion most important the faith that the people have in their Army.



no way can USA be put at any place but number one. thier soldiers are not motivated in iraq, but doesnt mean they wont be motivated elsewhere. if tomorrow china or russia attacks USA, you'll see just how motivated US soldiers are. 

Personally i think that convntionally USA has more power than the other 9 put together. 

Here's my list, taking into account nukes, number of soldiers, technology, motivation and training:

1) USA (by far)
2 Russia (still ahead of china at this stage, though china is catching up)
3) China 
4) India 
5) Israel 
6) UK
7) France
8) Pakistan
9) Japan
10) South korea


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## Contrarian

My list will differ from the rest:

USA
Russia
UK
France
Germany(They have excellent land forces)
Japan
China
Israel
India
Turkey
South Korea

For those wondering why i did not include Pakistan, jingoism aside, i dont think Pakistan ranks in the top 10. Its airforce is completely outdated with only now limited number of new F-16's being added along with majority of JF-17. Only recently acquired BVR capability with the induction of F-16's. Navy is not really worth mentioning apart from 3 good subs. Army is by far the best, but is still stuck with old equipment by and large like India.

The only difference is India has started towards linking of their assets of the army and is heavily procuring new equipment for the modernization of its Army. PA is still not getting that from its govt.

This is my view, you are free to disagree.

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## sahaliyan

malaymishra123 said:


> My list will differ from the rest:
> 
> USA
> Russia
> UK
> France
> Germany(They have excellent land forces)
> Japan
> China
> Israel
> India
> Turkey
> South Korea
> 
> For those wondering why i did not include Pakistan, jingoism aside, i dont think Pakistan ranks in the top 10. Its airforce is completely outdated with only now limited number of new F-16's being added along with majority of JF-17. Only recently acquired BVR capability with the induction of F-16's. Navy is not really worth mentioning apart from 3 good subs. Army is by far the best, but is still stuck with old equipment by and large like India.
> 
> The only difference is India has started towards linking of their assets of the army and is heavily procuring new equipment for the modernization of its Army. PA is still not getting that from its govt.
> 
> This is my view, you are free to disagree.



Japan have a good navy,but their land force is too bad


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## sahaliyan

And We should add Missiles and nukes.India's missles can't reach US,while China's Missiles can reach everywhere.
North Korea is stronger than South Korea.Their artillery xan destroy Seoul very easy.


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## Neo

01 - USA
02 - Russia
03 - UK
04 - France
05 - China
06 - Germany
07 - Japan
08 - Israel
09 - India
10 - Turkey
11 - South Korea
12 - Pakistan

I rated UK and France higher than China due their technological superiority over China in conventional as well as nuclear field. Germany and Japan are not a nuclear powers but have overall technological superiority over India and very advanced Air Force and Navy.

India holds numeric superiority over Israel and has a better navy but Israeli forces are definately better equipped.

Pakistan is ranked 12th on my list, behind Turkey and South Korea for the obvious reasons that Air Force and Navy lack offensive (decisive) capabilities.


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## su-47

at the ebd of the day we can debate about it, but there's one thing that is more detrimental to the outcome of a war than any other: the human factor. at the end of the day the side with more motivation and better commanders usually win wars. best example is vietnam


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## KENT

1. USA 
2. RUSSIA
3. ISREAL
4. UK
5. FRANCE
6. JAPAN
7. GERMANY
8. CHINA
9. INDIA
10. IRAN


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## Contrarian

su-47 said:


> at the ebd of the day we can debate about it, but there's one thing that is more detrimental to the outcome of a war than any other: the human factor. at the end of the day the side with more motivation and better commanders usually win wars. best example is vietnam



Motivation cant really save you if you dont have comparable equipment and logistics.
Eg: 1962 war.


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## su-47

malaymishra123 said:


> Motivation cant really save you if you dont have comparable equipment and logistics.
> Eg: 1962 war.



ofcourse, but what i meant was that motivation and art of war are the two most important factors. more important than technology or industrial capacity.


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## Contrarian

sahaliyan said:


> Japan have a good navy,but their land force is too bad



Japan has an excellent navy, second best in Asia ! And their Airforce is similar...
When it has 2 out of three things, the two things that are beginning to be the most important sectors in any conflict.

But the Indian Army, will be limited to a regional strength. IA can throw their weight around this region as they have established logistics, but cannot really go beyond that. Same as PA.


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## Sino-PakFriendship

Stealth Assassin said:


> Hey, I'm guessing that Russia should be behind China, and Uk, France should be above India?



No, Russia has strongest nuclear weapon in the world.


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## ahussains

Neo said:


> 01 - USA
> 02 - Russia
> 03 - UK
> 04 - France
> 05 - China
> 06 - Germany
> 07 - Japan
> 08 - Israel
> 09 - India
> 10 - Turkey
> 11 - South Korea
> 12 - Pakistan
> 
> I rated UK and France higher than China due their technological superiority over China in conventional as well as nuclear field. Germany and Japan are not a nuclear powers but have overall technological superiority over India and very advanced Air Force and Navy.
> 
> India holds numeric superiority over Israel and has a better navy but Israeli forces are definately better equipped.
> 
> Pakistan is ranked 12th on my list, behind Turkey and South Korea for the obvious reasons that Air Force and Navy lack offensive (decisive) capabilities.



I am also 100% agree with you but in my opinion i put Pakistan Ahead of South Korea Due to Nuclear Power and an Active Advance Missile System.


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## Janbaz

KENT said:


> 1. USA
> 2. RUSSIA
> 3. ISREAL
> 4. UK
> 5. FRANCE
> 6. JAPAN
> 7. GERMANY
> 8. CHINA
> 9. INDIA
> 10. IRAN



Bro, even though i consider this a semi dead topic, Pakistan tops Iran out....Not that they are ineffective, just to confident on thier indeginious weapon systems.....


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## Neo

su-47 said:


> at the ebd of the day we can debate about it, but there's one thing that is more detrimental to the outcome of a war than any other: the human factor. at the end of the day the side with more motivation and better commanders usually win wars. best example is vietnam



I agree, we've seen it in Vietnam and the opposite in Iraq.


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## Black Stone

This is difficult to list as there are many factors to be considered.

1. USA
2. China
3. Russia
4. France
5. UK
6. Israel
7. India
8. Pakistan
9. South Korea
10. Turkey

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## Proud to be Pakistani

1. USA 
2. Russia 
3. UK 
4. France 
5. China 
6. Israel 
7. India
8. Turkey 
9. South Korea
10.Pakistan


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## salman nedian

KENT said:


> 1. USA
> 2. RUSSIA
> 3. ISREAL
> 4. UK
> 5. FRANCE
> 6. JAPAN
> 7. GERMANY
> 8. CHINA
> 9. INDIA
> 10. IRAN



this is ridiculous, Iran is ahead of Pakistan???????????????

No way

Pakistan has a very good air power with the induction of JF-17s and J-10s and especially when we will be building them as well, we will have advantage. to me manufacturing capability matters a lot. we have our ground power comparable to anyone in the world and as we are gaining capabilities to build subs, frigates and missile crafts we have a good navy.

But surely Pakistan has to build up a strong naval air unit which should contain air craft careers to achieve the capability to take a decisive action against any aggressor.


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## Goodperson

This camparison makes no sense its just for debate.


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## Neo

*An excellent analisys by Zraver posted elsewhere in this forum:*

The current international classification of lesser, middle, greater, and super powers is to limited. I fall into the camp that adds a new catagory- hyper power. This divides the world in to 5 categories that are more objectively compared with one another.

The term Hyperpower was coined in France.
To Paris, U.S. Looks Like a &#x27;Hyperpower&#x27; - International Herald Tribune

Placing the US into the Hyper Power catagory means the term Superpower can be more readily ascribed to several factions who quite frankly by themselves have more power than any nation in history before 1945.

*Hyperpower*
Global conventional ground force projection, hegemonic power in at least 1 of these 5 broad areas: Cultural-Economic/Industrial-Energy-Military-Political, and all super power categories.

*USA**Dominant in 4 hegemonic areas: Cultural, Economic/Industry, Military, and Political.

*Superpower*(having all of the following)

1 trillion USD economy (actual) not PPP
100,000,000 population base or greater.
Credible space program.
Blue water capable navy.
Nuclear weapons.
P5 seat on the UN Security Council.
Modern air force and aerospace industry.

*Russia* Has near hegemonic energy influence over Europe.
*China* Rapidly becoming an non-military industrial hegemon.
_India_ 
_EU_
India and the EU are emerging/potential Superpowers with potential hegemonic traits like the Euro (Economic) and Bollywood(culture).

*Great Powers* (most of the above list- within 1-2 categories)

*England* (-Population)* Eventually faces loss of P5 seat to EU if the EU federalizes. -1
*France* (-Population)*Eventually faces loss of P5 seat to EU if the EU federalizes. -1
*Germany* (Nukes, P5 Seat) -2
*Japan* (Nukes, P5 Seat) -2
*India* (P5 seat)* India is a P5 contender. -2
*Brazil *(Nukes, P5 Seat)* Brazil is a P5 contender. -2


*Middle Powers* (missing 3-6)
*South Korea* (Nukes, P5 Seat, Population) -3
*Pakistan* (Blue Water Navy, Economy, P5 Seat) -3
*Iran* (Nukes, Blue Water Navy, Population, Economy, P5 Seat)-4
*Israel *(Blue Water Navy, Population, Economy, -P5 Seat) -4
*Mexico* (Space program, Aerospace Industry, Nukes, Blue Water Navy, P5 seat) -5
*Taiwan* (Nukes, P5 Seat, Population, Space program, Economy) -5
*Ukraine* (Nukes, Population, P5 Seat, Blue Water Navy, Economy) -5
*Egypt* (Nukes, Population, P5 Seat, Blue Water Navy, Economy, Space program) -6
*Turkey* (Nukes, Blue Water Navy, Population, Economy, P5 seat, Space program) -6


*Lesser Powers* (are missing 7 or more of the categories)

*South Africa* *destroyed existing nuclear weapons.

*Categories*

*Blue Water Capable Navy*, having a naval force capable of acting in a decisive manner far from the nations own shores (1000Km plus) with frigate sized or larger warships.

*Credible Space Program*, having launched at least one sophisticated commercial, scientific, or military satellite and having a dedicated space agency. 
*
Global Ground Force Projection*, being able to sustain 1/4 million military personnel (collective) outside the nations border for a significant period of time measured in years.

*Hegemonic Power*, being the single most import actor in a given area, one that the rest of the world generally conforms to (soft power) or fears/aligns with (hard power).


*Modern Air force and Aerospace Industry*, having at least 4th generation fighters and the ability to produce at least some sort of jet powered or rotary winged aircraft.

*Nuclear Weapons*, having a credible deterrent force of weaponized nuclear devices and delivery systems.
*
Trillion Dollar Economy*, having a real GDP of at least 1 trillion US dollars, not measured in PPP. This is likely to change to the Euro at some point as that currency continues its ascendant rise.

*P5 Seat*, having a seat on the permanent UN Security Council.

*Notes*

Nations are not judged by areas where they still lag behind (down points) but by up points. Thus things like access to health care, literacy, homelessness etc are not factors in the rankings. Only those things that can be objectively compared to other states and that are in or can be considered to be in direct competition to other states are considered.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/global-military-defence/8037-international-power-rankings.html

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## salman nedian

Population has not been mentioned in Pakistan's properties which could improve our ranking


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## Tiki Tam Tam

All these classifications don't matter.

What matters is what they are achieving for their people and how they are capable of defending their internal and external security issues.


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## mujahideen

Salim said:


> All these classifications don't matter.
> 
> What matters is what they are achieving for their people and how they are capable of defending their internal and external security issues.



Well said. As far as the economic part is concerned if the economic progress doesn't bring benefits to the common man or the lower class people what good is it? The money will continue to revolve around a couple of people.


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## KENT

Janbaz said:


> Bro, even though i consider this a semi dead topic, Pakistan tops Iran out....Not that they are ineffective, just to confident on thier indeginious weapon systems.....



Just tell me in which area Pakistan top to Iran. I think it will be the Nukes other then that there is nothing anything you can bring to outperform Iran.


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## mujahideen

KENT said:


> Just tell me in which area Pakistan top to Iran. I think it will be the Nukes other then that there is nothing anything you can bring to outperform Iran.



What are you talking about man. You obviously know nothing about Pakistan. Now you have compared us with Iran so I will only focus on this. We have a bigger Army then Iran, more tanks, nukes you have mentioned, better and more advance equipment, better pilots, and I could go on and on. The only thing they might be better then us in is Defence budget. But honestly Iran and Pakistan will never have an issue with each other so if this comparison is being done, to see who will win in a war, it is just not going to happen.

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## KENT

mujahideen said:


> What are you talking about man. You obviously know nothing about Pakistan.



You are making contradiction to yourself



mujahideen said:


> Now you have compared us with Iran so I will only focus on this. We have a bigger Army then Iran, more tanks, nukes you have mentioned, better and more advance equipment, better pilots, and I could go on and on.




Pls tell what are those advanced equipment? Iran already got some of the best fighter planes like F-14, MIg-29, propsed 250 Su-30 as well as their own awacs and top of that they formidable air defence system in the form S-300 pmu. I don't have the time right now otherwise I could go on and on.



mujahideen said:


> The only thing they might be better then us in is Defence budget. But honestly Iran and Pakistan will never have an issue with each other so if this comparison is being done, to see who will win in a war, it is just not going to happen.




I know man war is not going to happen, but just we are using our intellect to judge who is better in terms of armed forces and modernisation of weapons.


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## mujahideen

KENT said:


> You are making contradiction to yourself
> Pls tell what are those advanced equipment? Iran already got some of the best fighter planes like F-14, MIg-29, propsed 250 Su-30 as well as their own awacs and top of that they formidable air defence system in the form S-300 pmu. I don't have the time right now otherwise I could go on and on.
> I know man war is not going to happen, but just we are using our intellect to judge who is better in terms of armed forces and modernisation of weapons.



Whatever the case maybe Iranian Forces cant beat Pakistani Forces. Only their Air Force must not be counted everything is a factor in war and even the IAF is no match for the PAF. The PAF pilots are one of the bests in the world. Pakistan is know for its pilots. Take the history of any world conflict in which the PAF was used PAF pilots have always been a bright spot.


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## malikmohsin

plz type your thread 
this is not a war pakistan or iran
both are good friend 
bath pakistan is nuclear power 
and pakistan army ,airforce and navy are trained


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## Astra

In the 21st century war is going to be short and lethal, so firepower matters more than manpower. The old way of capturing territory is not going to happen anymore. In this sense Iran is more than a match for Pakistan.


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## Majnun

This can't be done, but this is it in my opinion.

Turkey
China
Israel
Russia
Pakistan
USA
UK
India
Germany
North Korea


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Astra said:


> In the 21st century war is going to be short and lethal, so firepower matters more than manpower. The old way of capturing territory is not going to happen anymore. In this sense Iran is more than a match for Pakistan.



And having devastated an area, what next?

"When it was victory, the cavalier claimed it outright, the gunner boasted of his calibre, the engineer and signalman publicised their worth, but the infantryman stood silent with victory at his feet." 

Unless you physically hold ground, it is no win!


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## peacelover

In my opinion -
US
Russia
UK
China
France
Germany
India
Israel
Japan
Few of them after this list but insignificant on world stage&#8230;

Pakistan is no where... How can a country's Armed forces become powerful if economy it self depends upon the donation of west. Country is facing regular turmoil from last 60 years, most of world considering her on verge of failed state. Power is highly interlinked to many thing stated above. Pakistan even does not have money to mobilize its armed forces, becoming a POWER in world stage is dream.

First do some thing to change the world's perception about Pakistan. Racists in west use P-AKI as abuse for brown coloured people from south east asia.


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## Plasma

Please do explain how we are surviving on donations?


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## Astra

Salim said:


> And having devastated an area, what next?
> 
> "When it was victory, the cavalier claimed it outright, the gunner boasted of his calibre, the engineer and signalman publicised their worth, but the infantryman stood silent with victory at his feet."
> 
> Unless you physically hold ground, it is no win!



I agree with you, its the soldier with victory under his boots and its him who hosts the flag in the enemy territory.

But, do you think India wants to capture and occupy Islamabad or does china want to capture New delhi. Those days are gone, in modern/full scale warfare the militaries prefer to destroy strategic military and economic targets to cripple the enemy. Yes, if its border dispute, the infantery plays the major role.


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## Astra

Plasma said:


> Please do explain how we are surviving on donations?



1. That was not for Canada, it was for Pakistan.
2. 25% of defence budget in Pakistan comes from the US. 

Do you want me to prove this? I can give you many authentic links. But, I suggest you do some internet search.


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## mujahideen

Astra said:


> In the 21st century war is going to be short and lethal, so firepower matters more than manpower. The old way of capturing territory is not going to happen anymore. In this sense Iran is more than a match for Pakistan.



You have said it here that the old ways are not going to work. So Pakistan will win in the short and long run. All it needs are its nuclear weapons and the war is likely to be over.


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## peacelover

Plasma said:


> Please do explain how we are surviving on donations?



I think Astra has answered your question. Most of the Pakistan Defence budget, loans re-payment getting through money coming on the name of war of terror. Its known fact. Massive number of articles are ready to read on internet.
Military power is always backed by Polical, Economical Power and internal stability, you know what is happening at all three fronts in Pakistan.
Number of personnel in Armed forces does not create Power these days, as I sayed earlier many things are interlinked.

And may I know what industries you have Mango export ???? No no cotton too, thanks to Land of Pakistan which can produce it. And what about terror, still not official and taxed by Pakistan Gov.

Though personally I want to see pakistan a progressive, stable nation because in tomorrow's world single strong country is not going to play major role, rather a strong region may become very powerful and effective as you can see Europe, then both India and Pakistan should be stronger country. And we have started seeing this in many area where Pakistan and India has worked together Cricket matters, and few import and export fronts.

And please do some thing to change the world's perception of Pakistan it will attract FDI.

Good Luck.


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## peacelover

mujahideen said:


> You have said it here that the old ways are not going to work. So Pakistan will win in the short and long run. All it needs are its nuclear weapons and the war is likely to be over.



Every day I read news about sucide bombing, unfortunatly they are using Pakistani teenager also.

Safegaurd your NW else some day they can use against you only.

Understand the true meaning of Military power, Gun without bullet is meaning less, this is situation of Pakistan, hope you will understant wholistic meaning of Bullet else you will say there are factories in Pakistan to produce Bullet.


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## EagleEyes

Astra said:


> 1. That was not for Canada, it was for Pakistan.
> 2. 25&#37; of defence budget in Pakistan comes from the US.
> 
> Do you want me to prove this? I can give you many authentic links. But, I suggest you do some internet search.



Please provide your source with authentic sources that proclaim 25% of defence budget comes from the U.S. Firstly, you dont even know how much Pakistan spends per year or for that matter it spent in 2007. 

Even if you claim that 25% of aid comes from the U.S. it doesn't prove anything. Pakistan is in much better position to spend more on defence than it ever was.

So assuming that Pakistan isn't in the position to keep up with its defence budget without the U.S support is childish and folly patriotism in your Indian mind.


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## peacelover

WebMaster said:


> Please provide your source with authentic sources that proclaim 25% of defence budget comes from the U.S. Firstly, you dont even know how much Pakistan spends per year or for that matter it spent in 2007.



Find some link below - 
Note: All links talks about civilian aids and not military. Though after war of terror Pakistan getting huge amout of money and utilizing for its own military and debt re-payment.

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/APCITY/UNPAN027099.pdf
This is study done by Ghulam Mohey-ud-din from Pakistan itself -

A Quote from there -
"In case of Pakistan, the foreign aid is a major form of the foreign capital
inflow and has a significant role for the countrys economic development. The
trends and the patterns have shown that the FDI, portfolio investment and
borrowing through private sources have also increased sharply. But Pakistan
is still unable to attract such FCIs. Pakistan lacks physical, financial & human
capital as well as political & macroeconomic stability. So, it has to rely on
foreign aid or foreign debt."

The Political Economy of US Aid to Pakistan

By Mumtaz Anwar, Katharina Michaelowa 

Who says -
"Pakistan belongs to the developing countries most heavily depending on foreign aid after independence."

Do some thing and stop abusing neighbor, it creates wrong preception for FDI.


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## Janbaz

KENT said:


> Just tell me in which area Pakistan top to Iran. I think it will be the Nukes other then that there is nothing anything you can bring to outperform Iran.



Ok...
For one they are too reliant on their self made, un proven jets like Azerkash, Saegeh and Shafaq which is claimed to be "stealth".
The second reason is the fact that after their war with Iraq they have made few new inductions whether it be of jets or anything else.
Check out American analysis of their military on The Situation Room if you please...They rightly claim the Irainian military is badly trained and equipped and not a major player as it claims it is.


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## EagleEyes

peacelover said:


> Find some link below -
> Note: All links talks about civilian aids and not military. Though after war of terror Pakistan getting huge amout of money and utilizing for its own military and debt re-payment.
> 
> http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/APCITY/UNPAN027099.pdf
> This is study done by Ghulam Mohey-ud-din from Pakistan itself -
> 
> A Quote from there -
> "In case of Pakistan, the foreign aid is a major form of the foreign capital
> inflow and has a significant role for the country&#8217;s economic development. The
> trends and the patterns have shown that the FDI, portfolio investment and
> borrowing through private sources have also increased sharply. But Pakistan
> is still unable to attract such FCIs. Pakistan lacks physical, financial & human
> capital as well as political & macroeconomic stability. So, it has to rely on
> foreign aid or foreign debt."
> 
> The Political Economy of US Aid to Pakistan
> 
> By Mumtaz Anwar, Katharina Michaelowa
> 
> Who says -
> "Pakistan belongs to the developing countries most heavily depending on foreign aid after independence."
> 
> Do some thing and stop abusing neighbor, it creates wrong preception for FDI.



Your sources were unable to prove your comments and neither did you reply to my second part of my post. I dont mean to abuse you anyway, but i dont like your information about Pakistan which is obvious enough to be absolutely inaccurate.


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## Neo

peacelover said:


> In my opinion -
> US
> Russia
> UK
> China
> France
> Germany
> India
> Israel
> Japan
> Few of them after this list but insignificant on world stage&#8230;
> 
> Pakistan is no where... How can a country's Armed forces become powerful if economy it self depends upon the donation of west. Country is facing regular turmoil from last 60 years, most of world considering her on verge of failed state. Power is highly interlinked to many thing stated above. Pakistan even does not have money to mobilize its armed forces, becoming a POWER in world stage is dream.
> 
> First do some thing to change the world's perception about Pakistan. Racists in west use P-AKI as abuse for brown coloured people from south east asia.



What a load of crap! You actually have the guts to bash Pakistan and put India on the 7th place??! 

To give you a taste of your own let me remind you that India houses worlds largest concentration of extreme poor, illiterates, malnutrition under the sibblings, HIV/Aids effected people...*you have failed to improve lives of hundreds of millions*!

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


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## Neo

peacelover said:


> I think Astra has answered your question. Most of the Pakistan Defence budget, loans re-payment getting through money coming on the name of war of terror. Its known fact. Massive number of articles are ready to read on internet.


BS again!
Pakistani defence expenditure is $4 billion, USaid (military) counts for merely $0.4 billion, thats 10&#37;. Another $0.3 billion is dedicated to economic aid and some of is used for correct budgetary deficiencies and dept remboursement, not all!
How do think ongoing mega projects are financed??



> Military power is always backed by Polical, Economical Power and internal stability, you know what is happening at all three fronts in Pakistan.
> Number of personnel in Armed forces does not create Power these days, as I sayed earlier many things are interlinked.


Nuclear arsenal and an effective infrastructure enhanced by one of worlds most determined armies in the world with numbers is not a pushover.
Internal stability has always been strong when we face external threats.



> And may I know what industries you have Mango export ???? No no cotton too, thanks to Land of Pakistan which can produce it. And what about terror, still not official and taxed by Pakistan Gov.


Oh come on, where do you get your information from...some thrid grade Indian forum? 
Only an Indian will deny the progress we've made during last 7 years. 



> Though personally I want to see pakistan a progressive, stable nation because in tomorrow's world single strong country is not going to play major role, rather a strong region may become very powerful and effective as you can see Europe, then both India and Pakistan should be stronger country. And we have started seeing this in many area where Pakistan and India has worked together Cricket matters, and few import and export fronts.


Bla bla bla.... Seen this a zillion of times, but in fact its your government which still has anti-Pakistan policies. Sabotage in SAARC affairs is a fresh example that your governmenment doesn't want to see us progress.
Takes two to tango, do your part and let us do ours.



> And please do some thing to change the world's perception of Pakistan it will attract FDI.
> 
> Good Luck.



Again wake up and smell the coffee...we're way ahead in attracting FDI than any other country in the region. Yes India may have received larger amount but with more than $7 billion FDI in 2007 we have a better FDI vs GDP ratio. 

Do some homework before posting.


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## KENT

salman nedian said:


> this is ridiculous, Iran is ahead of Pakistan???????????????



Ranking Iran ahead of Pakistan, it doesn't mean I am spoiling the diginity of Pakistani armed forces. There is some strong reason behind it.




salman nedian said:


> No way
> 
> Pakistan has a very good air power with the induction of JF-17s and J-10s and especially when we will be building them as well, we will have advantage. to me manufacturing capability matters a lot.



Induction of Jf-17 and J-10, How many PAF has got this planes right now?
As far as my memory goes only 4 JF-17 has joined to the PAF and top of that there is only proposal of J-10. 

Regarding your capability of building them Fighter Plane, I don't have any doubt about it. But Has production line of Jf-17 started? Iran is building their own fighter planes and Helicopters, may be they are not on par with western fighter planes and helicopters but still they have shown their capability that it is in them to build on their own.



salman nedian said:


> we have our ground power comparable to anyone in the world



What kind of a ground power are you talking about?



salman nedian said:


> and as we are gaining capabilities to build subs, frigates and missile crafts we have a good navy.



Offcourse! one can admire the PN's capability to build this top noth weapons, but their Budget is too low to exert any creadible impact on Naval deployment.




salman nedian said:


> But surely Pakistan has to build up a strong naval air unit which should contain air craft careers to achieve the capability to take a decisive action against any aggressor.




This is absolutely wise thinking.

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## KENT

mujahideen said:


> Whatever the case maybe Iranian Forces cant beat Pakistani Forces.



Definetly there is no doubt about pakistani armed forces, but you have to provide some creadible justification on what grounds I mean in terms of weapon Pakistani armed forces can beat Iranian forces.




mujahideen said:


> Only their Air Force must not be counted everything is a factor in war



I think you are still living in black and white era, don't have got any lessons from the airwarfare of air power during desert strom



mujahideen said:


> and even the IAF is no match for the PAF.




May be this is true, but on what grounds are you making this claim.



mujahideen said:


> The PAF pilots are one of the bests in the world. Pakistan is know for its pilots. Take the history of any world conflict in which the PAF was used PAF pilots have always been a bright spot.




Definetly you have immense confidence on your airforce pilots as I have a confindence on my airforce, but modern airwar are not alone fought on the basis of best pilots, unless and until this pilots are don't provided with cutting edge technology till then they can't exert their flying skill on the airwarfare.


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## peacelover

Keep day dreaming... No one will stop you.....
See one analysis here....... PAKISTAN at no 20

World Military Strength Ranking

See some more real alaysis and keep day dreaming - Pakistan at 33 on spending -

World Military Spending - Global Issues

Need some this more....

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## Proud to be Pakistani

*Iran is greater than Pakistan in Military Power?

Someone is really out of his mind!

Check all the facts about Pakistani Army, Airforce and Navy and then compare the two Armed Forces!*


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## su-47

peacelover said:


> Keep day dreaming... No one will stop you.....
> See one analysis here....... PAKISTAN at no 20
> 
> World Military Strength Ranking
> 
> See some more real alaysis and keep day dreaming - Pakistan at 33 on spending -
> 
> World Military Spending - Global Issues
> 
> Need some this more....



As happy as i'm to see india at no 4, i'm not sure i can trust this list. how can anyone put brazil and turkey ahead of britain? also, putting pakistan at no 20 and israel at no 26, below mexico and egypt, seems wrong. is this an offical list made by some global federation?


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## Sino-PakFriendship

Superpowers:
1. USA
2. Russia

2nd Tier:
3. China
4. India
5. France
6. UK

Other powers
7. Japan
8. North Korea
9. Turkey
10. Pakistan


I rate Germany and Israel out of top 10 because
a. Germany is subjected to another NATO ally (USA, UK and France)
b. Israel has less population


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## sahaliyan

US is only superpower,and remain so before 2050,no country can overtake US
As for Russia,they are power no doubt,but they can't compare with US anymore


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## Neo

su-47 said:


> As happy as i'm to see india at no 4, i'm not sure i can trust this list. how can anyone put brazil and turkey ahead of britain? also, putting pakistan at no 20 and israel at no 26, below mexico and egypt, seems wrong. is this an offical lost made by some global federation?



Thank you!
I rest my case.


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## Always Neutral

Neo said:


> Thank you!
> I rest my case.



While I can't say anything about the other countries I agree that UK is a declining military power and Iraq and Afghanistan have exposed the same. I prefer a small modern force and a robust economy like the Swiss than a large powerfull army with the economy being neglected.

Regards


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## Contrarian

Neo said:


> To give you a taste of your own let me remind you that India houses worlds largest concentration of extreme poor, illiterates, malnutrition under the sibblings, HIV/Aids effected people...*you have failed to improve lives of hundreds of millions*!
> 
> People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.



Im very surprised mate.Unnatural and unexpected from you of all people.


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## malikmohsin

hi
pakistan has recive 12 jf.17 batch 2007 
and j.10 already use in p.a.f 
total j.10 in p.a.f service in 36


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## malikmohsin

Iran is power full country 
but you have not read the history of pakistan.pakistan first nucular power in Muslim world
why you r not compare Iran and pakistan.


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## Neo

malaymishra123 said:


> Im very surprised mate.Unnatural and unexpected from you of all people.



Sorry mate, I was going by the same logic as Mr Peacelover.
He diserved this reply.


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## khanz

hi guys ok plz lets stop arguing no need to bash other peoples countries

I googled it and according to strategy page pak is 10th strongest and iran is not even on the list I think their airforce is weak due to isolation from the west PAF is stronger they have the quality and quantity edge over IRIAF most of their fighters are home made not comparable to paf and even most of their f-14s are grounded too other than that they only have a few migs.

here their list:
According to the CIA and other Intelligence Services (European, Asian, African) this is the tally - based on a Combination of Manpower, Technology, Firepower, Training, Resources, Available Reserves, and Nuclear Potential (Current or Likely): 

1. USA 
2. China 
3. Germany 
4. India 
5. France 
6. Russia 
7. UK 
8. Italy 
9. Israel 
10. Pakistan

this from 2004 agree or disagree with this list ?
also iran will not get 250 sukhois that was just a rumuor and was denied by russia.


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## khanz

also I disagree with the globaly firepower index c'mon guys theres no way in hell mexico is a bigger military power than israel.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Not understood.

We are talking of regular forces!


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## amunhotep

khanz said:


> heres my list as honest and unbiased as possible not just based on nukes btw
> 
> 1. USA
> 2. Russia
> 3. China
> 4. India
> 5. Uk
> 6. France
> 7. Israel
> 8. Pakistan
> 9. South korea
> 10.Turkey
> 
> 
> post yours try to be objective guys !




south korea ahead of australia ???? turkey ahead of germany ????

care to explain dear ????


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## Astra

peacelover said:


> Find some link below -
> Note: All links talks about civilian aids and not military. Though after war of terror Pakistan getting huge amout of money and utilizing for its own military and debt re-payment.
> 
> http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/APCITY/UNPAN027099.pdf
> This is study done by Ghulam Mohey-ud-din from Pakistan itself -
> 
> A Quote from there -
> "In case of Pakistan, the foreign aid is a major form of the foreign capital
> inflow and has a significant role for the countrys economic development. The
> trends and the patterns have shown that the FDI, portfolio investment and
> borrowing through private sources have also increased sharply. But Pakistan
> is still unable to attract such FCIs. Pakistan lacks physical, financial & human
> capital as well as political & macroeconomic stability. So, it has to rely on
> foreign aid or foreign debt."
> 
> The Political Economy of US Aid to Pakistan
> 
> By Mumtaz Anwar, Katharina Michaelowa
> 
> Who says -
> "Pakistan belongs to the developing countries most heavily depending on foreign aid after independence."
> 
> Do some thing and stop abusing neighbor, it creates wrong preception for FDI.




Thanks for saving me some time.


----------



## khanz

amunhotep said:


> south korea ahead of australia ???? turkey ahead of germany ????
> 
> care to explain dear ????



I've never seen australia ranked highly in world military powers south korea is often in the top list.
Australia is no military power south korea has a far bigger military both and a quality edge over australia.


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## Janbaz

peacelover said:


> What I can applaud for Pakistan is that, in last 60 years they are able to produce world class scientist from Post Graduate Madarsas and done massive R&D in these facilities. Congratulations!!!!!!!!!! Keep this going.........



It's the 1st time i have felt like replying to a person of your stature... listen all of us could bash you and your native land that you so dearly love...OK...So get over the urge of talking crap about my nation. Im keeping it simple for you "buddy"..


----------



## khanz

here is another list according to strategy page this time going by combat power slightly different from the previous one.

1. United States

2. China

3. Israel

4. India

5. Russia

6. South Korea

7. North Korea

8. United Kingdom

9. Turkey

10. Pakistan


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## Janbaz

peacelover said:


> Do not be angry... Top ten military powers do not get angry as early as you are. I know it is sarcastic and bit pinching comment... Give some realistic answer, hope I may agree with you...



I mean you are the one that made the dumb if i can say that comment in your second last post and now are taunting me...Even you agree it is sarcastic and pinching, if so refrain from it....and talk real..Hopefully you get my point.


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## Janbaz

peacelover said:


> Dear still you do not understand what I mean. Straight to your mind -> Truth is always pinching, painfull (I can feel your pain) and sarcasm many times takes the truth out from mind.
> 
> Any way leave this here only and tell me if a country spends $2.7B annually on military then would it be in top ten military power in world? Please do not ask the country's name else you will again find me sarcastic.
> 
> Waiting for you answer in Yes or No...



I'll say yes and here is why: 
The exisiting platforms to operate militarly are alreay there. Air Defence systems, Trained war machine, fighter jets, submarines etc. So...if a puny budgeted nation competes with a giant India, then hell yes it is a military power.


----------



## Janbaz

peacelover said:


> Wow.. I am impressed. $2.7B budget comes at 33rd place. And you are trying to say all 32 countries do not have platform, trained people and machine. Too good.



The will and guts to fight count too... Do others have the same experience as the Pakistani war machine.....Little do amongst those. And i aint saying 32 others do not have platform etc. some not that comprable to that of Pakistan.



peacelover said:


> Also yes this is biggest power's one of the top research lab site. I am again impressed, you will find all information about world class reasearch done at this facility...



I am sure it was left after the 2002 happenings on proliferation...Well the major Indian failiure corporation DRDO is in a class of its own, uncomprable and unmatchable!


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## khanz

plz guys i don't want this thread to get junked mr peacelover i ask you respectfully to plz to bashing my country.Anyway back to topic we're in the top 10 also a because of being a nuclear power and one of the few countries to build and operate cruise missiles and I have read various military sites compiled by reputable organizations taking into account all different aspects of the military in their rankings pak is always in the top 10 i posted the list before according to CIA and various think tanks.
Actually it's not so bad if people think we're weak it's better to be underestimated


----------



## Janbaz

peacelover said:


> I think out of 32, most of them are older country than 33rd one and they have fought wars and many times won too
> 
> 
> 
> I have deep sympathy from you. Your hero becomes the part of ...... Network.
> 
> And DRDO has its own failure and success, and shown great transparancy in last few years. They are always under huge scrutiny from Indian media and public. They do not smuggle and show off 100% success rate. And scientists come from top engineering colleges and universities not from Madarsas. Now do not dare to comment on India's technical institutes



Well to their overglorified Teja/LCA brute, it seems they drown in self esteem and confidence! Plus forget that Pakistanis are behind India in development of sciences and technology. Your own scientists claim our missiles to be better, the JF-17 sent alarm bells all across the land and still you deny the facts! Get a hold of yourself bro!


----------



## Neo

peacelover said:


> How can Pakistan by spending only $2.7B on military budget in 2007 become top 10 power in the world. Its at 33rd position in whole world.
> 
> And for all R&D and home grown technology there are few things I want to say...
> 
> For any development and R&D you need either private industries or some good gov organization. Also in High Tech product development, failure is very integrated part. Now if you see in India we have DRDO (more than 20 Labs), ISRO, HAL,etc. and some matured private industries. These R&D organization have maintained some kind of transparancy what they are doing and that is why whole world knows about success and failure of these organization. They are always under scrutiny.
> 
> Now tell me which Pakistani organization has gone through such kind of scrutiny, at least I never heard any name at any pakistani forum too. Reason is simple they do not have any such kind of organization, nor they can build in near future due to lack of educational infrastructure, shattered economy and internal termoil. Every thing is smuggled and they are waisting few resources to show off the research.
> 
> *What I can applaud for Pakistan is that, in last 60 years they are able to produce world class scientist from Post Graduate Madarsas and done massive R&D in these facilities. Congratulations!!!!!!!!!! Keep this going......... *



*Stop talking bs and bashing my country. Your attitude sucks and you're embarissing your own countrymen!

One more insulting post and you're gone!
Consider yourself warned!

Neo*


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## A.Rahman

Mr peace lover's days here, are numbered; so guys lets stick to the topic


----------



## EagleEyes

A.Rahman said:


> Mr peace lover's days here, are numbered; so guys lets stick to the topic



He has absolutely no idea of what he is talking about!


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## salman nedian

Peace Lover,
Our Country may be on 33rd position but we can blow your country in a split second beware of that.


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## peacelover

salman nedian said:


> Peace Lover,
> Our Country may be on 33rd position but we can blow your country in a split second beware of that.



Any way I never used abusive and threatening language like you are using (I know you will not be warned). Though I gave some hard facts and asked few simple questions like R&D Labs name? Tech. Inst. names?. I do not know why many people find this insulting? From last many posts rather than answering, many any abusive.

Any way lets stop here, I will search internet for answer. Lets concentrate on topic.

Enjoy....


----------



## khan26

I feel happy to become a member of this group yesterday.I am interested in military affairs though till now i have not read many books on war strategy and history.Anyway I
intend to learn much from my friends here.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

peacelover said:


> Any way I never used abusive and threatening language like you are using (I know you will not be warned). Though I gave some hard facts and asked few simple questions like R&D Labs name? Tech. Inst. names?. I do not know why many people find this insulting? From last many posts rather than answering, many any abusive.
> 
> Any way lets stop here, I will search internet for answer. Lets concentrate on topic.
> 
> Enjoy....



NESCOM - That is the overarching organization with several R&D institutes under it (the institute that developed the Shaheen and Babur I believe)

AWC - Air weapons complex (They developed the air launched Raad CM, I believe)

KRL - Khan Research Laboratories.

Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) - Tanks, APC's, heavy vehicles etc. (Recently sold command post carriers and the Saad APC to Iraq)

Integrated Dynamics and a couple of private companies involved in developing UAV's that have been exported to the US as well as purchased by PA.

Thats what I can think of off the top of my head. And if you had initially attempted to at least ask the Pakistani members what R&D infrastructure existed in Pakistan, rather than going on a rant, we could have avoided all this nastiness. 

On the topic, what are the qualifiers here?

Are we ranking nations based on their technological superiority or the actual strength of their armed forces? Someone mentioned that placing Turkey over Germany, and while Germany as a nation may have an edge in terms of having a more diverse technological base, their military is quite a bit smaller in terms of actual size - and the Turks don't operate with outdated equipment either - so what carries more weight? Its not an easy comparison to make, since every country equips themselves based on their threat perception.

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## Neo

*PAKISTAN DEFENCE PRODUCTION: PROSPECTS FOR DEFENCE EXPORT ​*
Malik Qasim Mustafa *


*From Dependency to Self-reliance​*
During the colonial rule, sixteen ordnance factories were established in the sub-continent. After the creation of Pakistan in 1947, all those sixteen factories fell to Indian share since none of them were located in Muslim majority areas forming Pakistan.1 The newly-created Pakistan emerged with a fragile state apparatus and rudimentary Armed Forces headed by three British Chiefs for its respective forces, and scarcely had any infrastructure or equipment and no ammunition manufacturing facility, to meet the security challenges confronting its sovereignty, national security and territorial integrity. By October 1947, just two and half months after its creation, in such dire conditions the fledgling state of Pakistan already faced its first major externally-launched security threat  namely the Indian aggression against and its occupation of two-thirds of the Jammu and Kashmir State.

After independence, India provided Pakistan with only 6,000 tons of munitions out of 1700,000 tons in its possession, when it was proportionately entitled to more. The subsequent war in Kashmir pushed Pakistans army into a state of actual imbalance.2 On the economic front, Pakistan faced the same situation. Of its total dues Pakistan received only 147 million pounds sterling, representing 17% of the total balance held by India.3 On an immediate basis, Pakistan had to use almost 70% of that amount in arms purchases to redress this imbalance.

In 1951, the first Prime Minister of Pakistan, Liaquat Ali Khan, issued a directive to establish an ordnance factory to manufacture rifles and ammunition.4 Subsequently, in December 1951, the second Prime Minister of Pakistan, Khawaja Nazim-ud-Din, laid the foundation of four Pakistan Ordnance Factories with the cooperation of British Royal Ordnance, at Wah near Rawalpindi. This was the first step towards the establishment of a mother defence industry in Pakistan.

In its early years, lack of resources to deal with national security concerns pushed Pakistan to look for some outside help. At that time there were two power blocs, led by two super powers, the US and the Soviet Union, who dominated world affairs. Pakistan formed an alliance with the US in 1950s to meet the challenges of security, territorial integrity and to achieve a reasonable military equilibrium with India. On December 15, 1950, Pakistan signed a Mutual Defence Assistance Agreement with the US.5 The next major effort was made in 1952, when Mir Laik Ali Khan, Adviser to the Minister of Defence, visited the UK and the US and convinced the governments of both countries for arms sales to Pakistan.6 In May 1954, Pakistan signed another Mutual Defence Assistance Agreement with the US. Later in that year Pakistan also joined the SEATO and CENTO in 1955, with a US security guarantee. In 1959, Pakistan signed a bilateral Agreement of Cooperation with the US and became an Americas most allied ally in Asia.7 As a result of these agreements, Pakistan received significant military aid and training throughout 1950s and the early 1960s.8

During the period of reliance on the US supply, there was little attention given to domestic production. However, the 1965 Indo-Pak War led to a drastic reduction in economic and military assistance to Pakistan as the Pak-US cooperation which started in 1954 came to an end in 1965, and the US imposed sanctions on Pakistan. The US stopped all military aid to both India and Pakistan. Unlike India, it was a major disaster for Pakistan. This led the Pakistani leadership and policy makers to begin efforts to diversify their military hardware procurement policy.

After the 1965 War, on the one hand Pakistan was facing the US military sanctions, while on the other side India continued to build-up its armed forces with the Soviet help. The increasing pressure of Indian military build-up, forced Pakistan to turn towards China, North Korea, Germany, Italy and France for its defence procurement programmes. China, being a neighbour proved a good friend and helped Pakistan to raise three fully-equipped infantry divisions, including guns military vehicles, 900 Chinese tanks and MiG-19F aircraft for the air force. France supplied Mirage aircraft and submarines. In 1968, the Soviet Union offered US$30 million worth of aid to Pakistan and supplied 100 T-55 tanks, Mi-8 helicopters, guns and vehicles. In 1969, however, Soviet support was abruptly stopped under Indian pressure.

After the 1971 War, Pakistan continued to engage in rebuilding itself and spent huge resources on defence imports. The Heavy Industries at Taxila was established in 1971, followed by the F-6 overhaul and Rebuild Factory in 1972 at Kamra. This marked the first major step towards achieving some degree of self-reliance in the maintenance of modern aircraft and weapon systems. In 1973, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex at Kamra, north of Islamabad, came into being. Within a year, PAF had accepted the offer of a large number of F-6s (Chinese version of Mig-19s) from its trusted ally, China.9 Furthermore, Pakistan bought 24 French Mirage and Canadian Sabres (renamed F-86Es) on cash, and PAF arranged spares for existing fleets through alternate sources. In the meantime Pakistan also began the pursuit of its nuclear programme, to which end it also established Dr. A. Q. Khan Research Laboratories (KRL) in 1976.

In 1979, the US imposed sanctions on Pakistan when it learned that Pakistan had secretly begun construction of a uranium enrichment facility. As a result, the US stopped $85 million worth of military and economic aid to Pakistan. However, after the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Pakistan became a frontline ally of the US. In 1981, the US provided $3.2 billion in military and economic assistance to Pakistan, including the sanction of the purchase of 40 F-16s. In 1986, the US provided another aid package of $4 billion to Pakistan. Through the rest of the 1980s, the US continued its economic and military assistance to Pakistan, and the latter continued to modernise its armed forces. Pakistan mainly excelled in small arms and sold to approximately thirty countries including Sri Lanka, UAE, and many Middle Eastern countries. By the end of 1980s, the export figures were raised to Rs. 400 million annually.10

Even more tellingly, the United States rewarded Pakistans most unflinching cooperation in the Soviet-Afghan War during the 1980s by invoking, in October 1990, the Pressler Amendment to the US Foreign Assistance Act of 1961.11 The US suspected that Pakistan was developing nuclear weapons.12 The Pressler Amendment ended the supply of economic and military aid to Pakistan, which had averaged $650 million a year in the 1980s. This Amendment widened the conventional gap between India and Pakistan. Especially, the freeze of the deal of 28 F-16s - which eventually were never supplied to Pakistan - as the US believed that F-16s would be used by Pakistan for delivery of nuclear weapons and would spark an unprecedented, destabilising arms build-up in South Asia, thus playing a significant role in further crippling Pakistan Air Force.

In September 1991, the determination to move towards a degree of self-sufficiency in armament production resulted in the creation of the Ministry of Defence Production.13 The Ministry promoted defence production facilities including Pakistan Ordnance Factory (POF), the Heavy Industries at Taxila (HIT), and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). The Ministry also included seven other specialised organisations devoted to research and development, production, and administration. The government estimated annual production in the early 1990s at US$500 million including about US$30 million in exports. For example, Mushshaks  light trainers and observation aircraft  were provided to Iran. Exports ranked high among the ministry's goals.14

In 1996, the US passed the Brown Amendment, which allowed nearly $370 million of previously embargoed arms and spare parts to be delivered to Pakistan.15 After the May 1998 nuclear tests, the US re-imposed sanctions under Glenn Amendment which almost banned all sorts of economic, financial and military assistance to Pakistan. However, after the 9/11 events, Pakistan once again became a frontline state in the international coalitions war on terrorism, and as yet another outcome of that decision on Pakistans part, the US removed sanctions against Pakistan, which were imposed after the May 1998 nuclear tests.

Throughout its history of survival against great odds, Pakistan spent a major chunk of its defence budget on imports for its defence needs (see Appendix 1). In the recent decade, in order to meet its security requirements, Pakistan took a number of steps to develop some key areas to become self-sufficient in defence. There are over 20 major public sector units and over a 100 private sector firms engaged in the manufacture of defence-related products. Over a period of time Pakistans defence industry has grown into well-established units, and has developed the potential to export defence equipment to friendly states and international markets. This export potential in defence industry is not only the key to the countrys survival, but it would also bring in the much-needed foreign exchange.

Since 2000 Pakistans defence industry has been holding annual exhibitions under the auspices of the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS 2000, 2002 and 2004). The IDEAS arms for peace, as its theme, reflects Pakistans desire to promote peace and stability not only within the region but also elsewhere in the world.16 It recognises the fact that export of cost-effective armaments would help nations to maintain peace by equipping their armed forces, and to attain a minimum degree of deterrence against external threats at an affordable level. IDEAS provides an interactive platform for the international defence manufacturing industry to showcase their products and services and enhance cooperation between countries from all parts of the world to share the common global cause of peace (against common enemies, such as the war against terrorism).

The concept of IDEAS succeeded through its previous events and attracted the attention of numerous leading defence industry and services. The recent IDEAS 2004 exhibition held in Karachi from September 13-17, was one of the biggest defence exhibitions to be held in the region. In IDEAS 2004, more that 50 countries attended while 150 national and multinational firms participated. Pakistan Aeronautical Complex displayed the indigenously manufactured Mushshak, Super Mushshak and Karakorum-8 Jet trainer aircraft, which is a very attractive aircraft for the countries with limited defence budgets.

Through IDEAS, Pakistans defence exports have grown tremendously. Pakistan has already found markets in a number of Asian, African and Middle Eastern countries. Pakistans export target for the year 2003-04 is $147 million, which is expected to further rise to the level of at least $500 million (i.e., 1% of the $50 billion global arms market) during the next five years.17 While inaugurating IDEAS 2004, President Musharraf pointed out, we came under sanctions sometimes back and apart from negative effects these had positive effects. That was to diversify our sources of weapons and indigenisation. Those sanctions also assisted us in developing our own industry towards self- reliance.18

*Major Defence Production Capabilities of Pakistan*

In 1972, Defence Production Division within the Ministry of Defence was created. That was a time when the US military aid was suspended and it was felt necessary to strive for self-reliance in defence production.19 Defence Production Division is charged with the responsibility of providing the three Services with arms, ammunition and weapon systems through manufacturing or purchases. (See Figure. 1) Some of the main objectives and functions of the Ministry of Defence Production Division are:

* Achieving self reliance; 

* Import substitution by indigenisation; 

* Maintain existing system with minimum import requirements; 

* Involve local industry in defence production; 

* Production of cost-effective and competitive equipment; 

* Generate funds by exporting defence products; 

* Research and development of defence equipment; 

* Procurement of defence equipment, and negotiations for foreign assistance or loans; and 

* To attain economies of scale through optimum production and procurement.20 

Pakistan relies on more than 100 public and private defence production units. Some of them are discussed below. 

*1. Pakistan Ordnance Factories *

The Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF), founded on December 28, 1951, at Wah near Rawalpindi, are one of the premier defence industries and the lifeline of Pakistan armed forces. Mainly the POF consists of 14 major factories that take care of almost 100% requirements of Pakistan armed forces.21 POF produce approximately 70 major products for Army, Navy and Air Force. The main products include automatic rifles, machine guns, sub-machine guns, anti-aircraft guns, complete range of mortar and artillery ammunitions, aircraft and anti aircraft ammunitions, tank and anti-tank ammunitions, bombs, grenades, anti-tank mines, pyrotechnics, commercial explosives and commercial products, and rockets and so forth.22 These factories are also ISO-900123 and ISO-14001 certified. They employ some of the latest state of the art technologies, including computerised numerical-controlled machines and flexible manufacturing systems for production of precision components.24 This modern industrial complex has also assisted many sister defence production setups to flourish. The major factories and subsidiaries of the POF are the following:

* Factories

* Weapons Factory 

* Bombs & Grenades Factory 

* Tungsten Carbide Factory 

* Machine Gun Factory 

* Filling Factory 

* Propellants Factory 

* Heavy Artillery Ammo Factory 

* Small Arms Ammo Factory 

* Brass Mills 

* Tungsten Alloy Factory 

* Tank Amrno Factory 

* Explosives Factory 

* Medium Artillery Ammo Factory 

* Clothing factory 

* Subsidiaries 25

* Wah industries Ltd. 

* Wah Nobel (Pvt) Ltd. 

* Wah Nobel Chemicals Ltd. 

* Wah Nobel Detonators Ltd. 

* Wah Nobel Acetate Ltd. 

* Attock Chemicals (Pvt) Ltd. 

* Hi-Tech Plastics (Pvt) Ltd. 

In the first 15 to 20 years after their establishment, the POF were confined mostly to the manufacture of traditional products, but following the different phases of expansion, diversification and consolidation, POF has come of age by taking a quantum jump to the modern state-of-the-art manufacturing technology of international standards.26 Modern live-firing test facilities are available to ensure international acceptance standards of the products.27 In view of the tight foreign exchange situation and sanctions imposed by developed countries, the POF management has undertaken indigenisation programmes aimed at achieving self-sufficiency in raw materials, semi-finished goods and other products. In the process, POF has saved millions in foreign exchange. POF has been at one time or the other exporting arms and ammunition to 30 countries around the globe. The buyers include not only those from the developing countries but also in Europe and the USA. During the last three years, POF recorded high exports of arms and ammo and was awarded the FPCCI trophy for exports.28

*2. Heavy Industries Taxila *

Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) is a dynamic and progressive organisation where cooperation and cohesion between various sectors has been harnessed to maximise results. The birth of HIT took place in 1971 when Project-711 was established in Taxila with Chinese assistance mainly to rebuild the T-59 Tank fleet of the Pakistan Army.30 HIT has built the MBT 2000 Al-Khalid30, APC M-113, IFV Al-Zarar, (an upgraded version of the T-59 tanks of Chinese origin), T-59 MII, T-69 IIMP, T-85 IIAP, and fighting vehicles for the Pakistan Army.31 The HIT has also built Armoured Personal Carriers (APCs) M113 A1/A2, M113 A2 MK-1 and ARV-W653.32 HIT consists of:

a. Heavy Rebuild Factory T-Series and Heavy Rebuild Factory M-Series (rebuild facilities), APC Factory, Tank Factory and Gun Factory (manufacturing facilities), for a cost effective and progressive manufacture of armoured fighting vehicles, armoured personnel carriers (APCs), and tank guns.33

b. Development Engineering Support Components Manufacture (DESCOM) for development of materials and components required.

c. Training and Research Organisation (ETRO).

The progress made by HIT in the development of Al-Khalid tank has been very encouraging.34 This is a true reflection of the dedication of its planners, engineers and technicians. The Al-Khalid has been developed in association with China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO).35 The pilot production of Al-Khalid tank started in November 2000. In May 2002, Pakistan signed a contract with the Ukrainian Malyshev tank plant for the supply of 6TD-2 engines to be used in the production of Al-Khalid tanks.36 

Presently, more than 7500 components of differing types are manufactured locally by HIT while another 7500 components of various categories are being produced by numerous vendors associated with HIT.37 On February 26, 2004, President General Pervez Musharraf, handed over 80 indigenously modernised and upgraded Al-Zarrar tanks to the Pakistan Army and 25 APCs to the police, which is an evidence of cost effective, self-sufficient defence production.38 HIT has become a very important industrial base and is playing a definite and a potent role in national self-reliance. 

*3. Heavy Mechanical Complex*

Heavy Mechanical Complex Ltd. (HMC), Taxila, established in 1979 with Chinese assistance, is a major heavy engineering subsidiary of the State Engineering Corporation (SEC) under the Ministry of Industries & Production, Government of Pakistan. The Heavy Forge Factory (HFF) at this complex has proved crucial for Pakistan's defence production needs. HMC has the capability for designing, engineering and manufacturing of industrial plants and machinery. HMC has the largest fabrication and machining facilities in the country equipped with Computer-Aided Designing (CAD) and can undertake a variety of fabrication/machining jobs on sub-contracting basis. HMC manufactures equipment for hydro-electric power plants, thermal power plants, sulphuric acid plants, industrial alcohol plants, oil & gas processing plants, and chemical & petro-chemical plants, etc. Boilers, cranes, construction machinery, material handling equipment, steel structure, railway equipment, etc. are some of the other products that are produced on regular basis.39

*4. Pakistan Aeronautical Complex *

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra, has expanded its scope, and commenced new and more challenging projects, created a veritable centre of excellence in military aviation and information technology, and above all, realised the original goal of self-reliance. PAC is composed of four factories:

*I. F-6 Rebuild Factory (F-6 RF)*

F-6 RF started its work in 1972, primarily for overhauling the Shenyang F-6s and their accessories. In 1980, F-6 RF expanded its role by undertaking the overhaul of F-6, FT-6, A-5III, FT-5 and F-7P aircraft along with its components and accessories. In February 1997, F-6 RF was certified under the ISO 9002 Quality Management System. Presently, F-6 RF possesses modern technical facilities for various engineering processes such as guns overhauling, surface treatment, heat treatment, etc.

*II. Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF)*

MRF started its operation in 1978 by overhauling Mirage III and V fighter aircrafts and ATAR C90 engines and related accessories. MRF is so much advanced that it also overhauled eight UAE Air Force Mirages and 42 Dassault/Commonwealth Mirage IIIOAs and eight IIIDs, bought from Australia in 1991.40 MRF can also overhaul F-100 engines powering the F-16s.41 On September 14, 1995, MRF also had the distinction of being the first defence establishment in Pakistan to achieve ISO-9002 certified.

*III. Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF)*

AMF was established in 1975 to assemble Mushshak. Since 1982 Mushshak aircraft not only delivered to Pakistan defence forces but also sold to other countries. AMF has been marketing its new improved Super Mashshak.42 AMF achieved another big milestone by the joint production of Karakorum-8 Jet Fighter Trainer with China which is capable of providing basic and advance training. It is a highly reliable aerobatic aircraft with excellent characteristics. PAC Complex is also manufacturing Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) such as Vector, the Hornet, Nishan, Ababeel and Baz.43 Pakistan recently exported Mushshak trainer aircraft to many Muslim countries and handed over 20 Super Mushshak to Saudi Arabia in September 2004. AMF is undoubtedly one facility that could help in achieving self-reliance and earning foreign exchange. 

*IV. Kamra Avionics and Radar Factory (KARF)*

KARF started its work in 1987 by rebuilding Siemens MPDR-45E radars, complex components and electronics modules, and caterpillar/Siemens power generators.44 KARF is also involved in co-production of airborne radar for fighters and upgrading of Mirage III avionics suite. It is also producing the Grifo-7 radar which is a coherent digital fire control system designed to improve air to air and air to ground performances of F-7P aircraft.

*5. Air Weapons Complex*

The Air Weapon Complex (AWC) started its operation in 1992 and it is located in Wah/Kamra. The AWC is one of the leading organisations in Pakistan in the field of Air Delivered Weapons/Systems.45 Formation of the AWC has significantly reduced the dependence of Pakistan on foreign resources. The AWC mainly produces,

a. Battlefield Interdiction and Tactical Support Weapons46

b. Airfield Attack and Denial Munitions

c. Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) 47

d. Electronic Warfare Systems

e. Infantry Support Equipment

f. Air Defence System

g. Training Aid Systems

6. Military Vehicles Research and Development Establishment 

Military Vehicles Research and Development Establishments (MVRDE) was created in 1972. Since than MVRDE is fully involved in mobilising, orientating and developing public and private industrial sector to achieve progressive self-reliance in defence equipment.48 Its infrastructure encompasses a wide spectrum of facilities under following broad categories: 

a. R & D Sections

b. Armoured Vehicles - Tanks, APCs, ARVs 

c. Wheeled Vehicles 

d. Engineers Equipment 

MVRDE is determined to play an important role in keeping the costs of military equipment down to a reasonable level and share benefits of its expertise and experience with friendly countries.

*7. Armament Research and Development Establishment *

Since its inception in 1974, the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) has been undertaking research and development in the field of arms and ammunitions. Major accomplishments of ARDE are production of weapons and tank ammunition.49 This ammunition includes: 

a. 120 mm mortar

b. RPG-7 rocket launcher

c. Mines

d. 100 mm DS/T Practice

e. 100 mm APFSDS/T

f. 105 mm DS/T Practice

g. 125 mm FSDS/T

h. 125 mm APFSDS/T

8. Institute of Optronics

Institute of Optronics (IOP) produces state-of-the-art military, night-vision devices, which improve the ability of the Armed Forces to undertake different tasks.50 The IOP is producing following military specific night-vision devices:

a. Individual Served Night Vision Weapon Sight 

b. Crew Served Night Vision Weapon Sight 

c. High Performance Night Vision Goggles 

d. High Performance Night Vision Binoculars 

e. Drivers Night Vision Periscope 

f. Aviators Night Vision Goggle 

One of the future agenda of IOP is Thermal Imaging Techniques for all types of armoured vehicles and helicopters. Besides meeting the night-vision requirements of the Armed Forces of Pakistan, this institute has exported these devices to friendly countries. 

*9. Margalla Electronics*

Margalla Electronics (ME) was created in 1984 as a self-reliance project to support the Defence Services in the field of electronics. The support includes:

a. Repair and rebuild of electronic equipment used by the services 

b. Applied research to improve equipment performance and reliability 

c. Original design and production 

Within a short span of time the ME has accumulated sophisticated skills and hardware necessary for assembling, testing, and repairing of various types of military electronics products. ME has co-produced and fielded sophisticated state-of-the-art radar systems and communications equipment jointly with various international companies.51 

*10. Submarine Rebuild Complex*

The Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) is dedicated towards rebuild and progressive manufacture of Submarines.52

*11. Defence Science and Technology Organisation *

The Defence Science and Technology Organisation (DESTO) is the premier defence research and development organisation of Pakistan. DESTO conducts research and development around weapons and weapon systems and renders professional advice on the application of science and technology. DESTO covers broad disciplines of aerodynamics, propulsion, defence electronics, computer systems, engineering, propellants, explosives, materials and chemical & biological defence etc.53 DESTOs R&D infrastructure is located at the following different physical locations:

a. DESTO Laboratories Complex, Chattar 

b. DESTO Laboratories, Karachi 

c. DESTO Laboratories, Chaklala 

After Pakistan conducted nuclear tests in May 1998, the US government identified and sanctioned DESTO as partner organisation in Pakistan's nuclear and missile programmes.54

*12. Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works*

The Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Work Ltd., (KSEW) is ISO-9002 certified for shipbuilding, submarine and warship construction and general engineering works.55 The present production capabilities are:

a. Shipbuilding of all types of vessels and craft of up to 26,000 TDW. 

b. Small submarines and warship/support craft like Missile Craft, Patrol Craft, Diving Boats, Towed Array Barge, Floating Docks, Berthing/Pusher Tugs, Oil/Water carriers, boats etc. 

c. Wide variety of engineering plants and machinery like pressure vessels, LPG storage tanks, etc.56 

Exportable products are:

* Submarine - Agosta 90B

* Midget Submarine

* Missile Craft

* Floating Dock 

* Tugs

*13. Integrated Defence Systems (National Development Complex*

The National Development Complex (NDC) was created in 1993 with the objective of developing an infrastructure for indigenous weapons development to achieve self-reliance in diverse technologies. In 1995 the Shaheen missile programme was initiated by the NDC along with the facilities of different industries in Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad, Gujranwala, Sialkot, Gujrat and other cities.57 Since its creation, NDC has made remarkable progress in developing and producing a diverse range of defence products, including:

* Missile Systems

* Launchers

* Area Denial Bomb PSD-1

* Fuel-Air Explosive Bomb FAE-1

* Warheads For Anti-Armour & Tactical Applications

* Energetic Materials & Propellants 

* Military Fuses 

* Power Sources

* Defence-Electronics

Towards attaining self-reliance, NDC has also undertaken the development of Launchers, along with the development of automatic missile testing and launch control system (ATLCS).58 

*14. Pakistan Navy Dockyard*

The Pakistan Navy (PN) Dockyard, since its inception in 1952, has been undertaking repair works, modernisation and rebuild of Pakistan Navy Ships, Submarines and Crafts. Pakistan Navy Dockyard is providing technical assistance, rebuild and repair of a wide range and diversity of equipment of PN Fleet and has undertaken fleet modernisation and up gradation programmes with success. PN Dockyard has developed the capability to undertake ambitious and indigenous construction projects like the production of Missiles Boats, Mines Counter Measure Vessel (MCMV) and AGOSTA 90-B Submarine.59 

*15. Dr A Q Khan Research Laboratories*

Dr. A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories (KRL) is one of the main nuclear laboratory, as well as a long-range missile development centre. The primary Pakistani fissile-material production facility is located at Kahuta, employing gas centrifuge enrichment technology to produce Highly-Enriched Uranium (HEU). This facility is not under International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards, but according to the Government of Pakistan the facility is physically secure and safe. Initially the KRL was known as Engineering Research Laboratories (ERL), founded by Dr. A. Q. Khan on July 31, 1976, with the exclusive task of indigenous development of Uranium Enrichment Plant. Within the next five years the target was achieved. On May 1, 1981, ERL was renamed as Dr. A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories (KRL). It was the enrichment of Uranium in KRL that ultimately led to the successful detonation of Pakistan's first nuclear device on May 28, 1998.60 

The Kahuta facility has also been a participant in Pakistan's missile development programme. KRL has successfully developed and tested Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles based on liquid fuel technology and its associated sub-systems. KRL has also undertaken many other defence projects of national importance to enable Pakistan to become self-reliant and thus help save valuable foreign exchange. These projects include: 

* Surface-to-Air-Anti-Aircraft Guided Missiles - Anza Mk 1, and Anza Mk-II. 

* Baktar Shikan Anti-Tank Guided Missile Weapon System. 

* Anti-personnel Mine Sweeping Line Charges.

* Anti-Tank Mine Clearing Line Charge-Plofadder-195 AT. 

* Laser Range Finder.

* Laser Threat Sensor.

* Laser Actuated Target.

* Laser-Aiming Device.

* Add-On Reactive Armour Kit.

* Anti-Tank Ammunition.

* Remote Control Mine Exploder (RCME).

* Digital Goniometer. 

* Power Conditioners for Weapon Systems. 

* Tow Missile Modules.

Major defence production establishment/organisations/ industries of Pakistan are covering a wide range of activities from research and development, to assembly and the manufacture of modern and state-of-art defence equipment. Pakistani defence products have always earned a proud reputation of reliability, cost effectiveness, and above all the capabilities to match modern-day defence equipment.

*Defence Exports*

Pakistans defence industry is not only meeting the requirements of its Armed Forces of Pakistan, but also exporting defence products to other friendly countries. Such export is not only contributing to economic growth, but also trying to maintain a balance between defence spending and national development. In 2000, the Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO) was established to promote the export of surplus defence products.61 DEPO is not only promoting defence products but also coordinating export activities covering all defence-related equipment. To apprise buyers, a permanent Defence Products Exhibition Centre has been established at Rawalpindi to display the items available for export. DEPO has also arranged defence exhibitions like IDEAS 2000, 2002 and 2004, as President General Pervez Musharraf stressed that defence exhibitions not only provide a window for defence products but also a platform for professional interaction between foreign delegations, senior government and military officials.62

Pakistans defence exports have already achieved three-digit figures. Pakistan has exported a number of products to other countries these includes Saudi Arabia, Iran, UEA, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. In 2001, Pakistan also exported several weapons systems to Malaysia, namely the Baktar Shikan anti-tank guided weapon, Anza MKII shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missile, RPG-7 rocket-propelled grenade and several types of conventional ammunition.63 In the years 2000 and 2001, Pakistan's export earnings from weapons and defence equipment made a quantum jump of almost 100%, from $40 million to $85-$90 million in 2002.64 PAC also signed a contract worth $2.27 millions for overhauling six aircrafts of the Sri Lanka Air Force. 

In April 2002, Malaysia ordered 25,700 anti-tank (heat) rockets from Pakistan.65 During April 8-11, 2002, at DSA-2002 international exhibition of armament, Malaysian military and government officials considered the Al-Khalid tank as the best, and showed their interest in buying it from Pakistan.66 In August 2002, Pakistan completed its first military aircraft export order by delivering five Super Mushshak Trainer Aircraft to Oman.67 Brigadier Saeed Bin Hamood of Royal Oman Air Force, said that relations between two air forces would be stronger, and we would like to see more in cooperation with support of these light trainer aircraft.68 This was a major breakthrough achieved in the lucrative Middle East market, presently dominated by the defence equipment producers of the Western countries. It is expected to boost the sale of Super Mushshak in the region. During the IDEAS-2002 held at Karachi, many countries of the Middle East, South Asia and Africa evinced a keen interest in Pakistani defence products, and some of them placed orders. 

During the year 2002, KSEW also received noteworthy export orders including construction of various marine crafts for Hansa Lines of West Germany, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Bangladesh and a Belgian company.69 In 2002, POF launched a $4 billion comprehensive plan to upgrade defence production capabilities. POF is also trying to acquire the certification from the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO), as it would have salutary effect on the further future marketing of Pakistani weapons and ammunitions abroad. 

In 2003, after the success of IDEAS 2002, Pakistan started the process of establishing commercially viable joint ventures with foreign private investors from Islamic countries in the fields of military hardware, military training and education. There are lot of opportunities in areas such as conventional weapons, light arms, ammunition, army vehicles, field guns and anti-aircraft guns. A number of foreign companies such as Nobel of Sweden and Al-Misehal from Saudi Arabia were already operating in defence-related manufacturing in Pakistan in cooperation with the POF.70 

In 2003, Pakistani defence exports crossed over $130 million, however, the aim is of gradual increase within next eight years with a target of over $1 billion.71 Over the year almost more then 200 items including missiles and tanks and the accessories related to them and other arms were exported to more than 21 targeted countries including Indonesia, Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Thailand, Morocco, Libya, Mauritius and other countries of Africa.72

On June 2003, as a result of these efforts, the UAE Air Force Chief, Brigadier General Staff Pilot Abdullah Al-Sayed Mohammed A1-Hashmi, met with Pakistans Acting Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, and focused on mutual cooperation between the two air forces.73 The UAE showed interest in buying Pakistani military hardware including Al-Khalid main battle tank, Mushshak trainers and various other defence items that Pakistan can offer. In June 2003, Pakistan also decided to export Al-Khalid tanks to Bangladesh and to upgrade military-to-military relations with Bangladesh.74

Recently in October 2004, Pakistan explored the possibilities of joint ventures with Saudi Arabia in arms production including missiles and tanks. Saudi Assistant Minister of Defence, Prince Khalid bin Sultan bin Abdul Aziz, talked with Pakistani Defence Minister, Rao Sikandar Iqbal, and underscored the need of enhancing military cooperation between the two brotherly countries.75 Enhanced arms and ammunitions for the defence services, and upgradation of certain types of ammunitions have reduced the nations dependence on foreign sources. Substantial foreign exchange has been earned through the sale of these products to friendly countries.76 HIT also successfully developed Al-Zarar tank by modernising the existing fleet of T-59 tanks, and attracted wide attention and recognition of Pakistans capability in this field.77

*Prospects for Defence Export*

Pakistans defence production has started to mature, and Pakistan plans to double its defence exports in the near future. Pakistans Defence industry has the capacity to manufacture surplus products in order to earn foreign exchange for national development. Pakistan is mainly focusing on main Battle Tanks, the Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar, APC Al-Saad, Al-Muhafiz security vehicle, the Baktar Shikan Anti-Tank Guided Missile, Super Mushshak, K-8 trainer aircraft, missile boats, small arms and a wide range of artillery, tank and small arms ammunitions.78 According to Zahid Anis, Pakistans Secretary for Defence Production today there are things that we can offer that can really interest the whole world.79 Being a new entrant in the market, with a 95% share of public sector, Pakistan is currently sustaining $100 million worth of defence exports.80 The defence exports could increase dramatically by exporting Al-Khalid, along with JF-17 fighter, developing with China, which could be ready for export by 2008-2009. By selling these big items, Pakistan can achieve a $1 billion target over five or six years. Although it would be just a small portion of international arms market, but Pakistan could achieve parity with its imports expenditures. 

Pakistans defence products may not be hi-tech, but are more cost-effective and affordable. Many countries have shown interest in the indigenous production of vessels by the Pakistan Navy. Any deal in this regard would not only boost Pakistan's image and credibility in the international market but would also help in earning sizeable foreign exchange. Experts from different countries have also showed interest in POF and HIT equipment, especially the Al-Khalid tank. Experts said that Al-Khalid includes qualities of some of the best tanks in the world, like targeting the enemy at night and auto-tracking of enemy tanks. Pakistani experts compare its qualities with that of Russian T-90 and German Leopard, which are considered to be the leading tanks in the world. Experts believe that Al-Khalid is the culmination of all the tank upgrading and rebuilding projects so far undertaken by the HIT.81

Marketing and sale of defence products is a time-consuming job. It normally takes 3 to 4 years to finalise and deliver a defence-related deal. In Pakistans case, the sale is government-to-government which usually takes more time in terms of evaluating and finalising the deal. Thus a product like a tank would take 5 to 7 years from deal to delivery. So, for that matter supplier-customer relations are the key to success. Although Pakistan is using the concept of IDEAS for the promotion of its defence products but still there is need to identify the target countries and advertise the product in such a way that it helps the buyer country to evaluate it quickly. For that purpose, timely information of the requirements of target countries is vital to boost defence exports.82 However, to capture a big market there is a need for

* Restructuring of the defence industry.

* Openings for the foreign investment.

* Joint ventures with friendly states for specific projects.

* Encouraging private sector to be involved in defence manufacturing and export.

* Adopt modern marketing tools.

Pakistans defence production capacity can be enhanced by launching joint ventures with friendly countries, and by enhancing defence exports Pakistan can achieve a desirable goal for earning foreign exchange. This would not only help to meet the demands of its armed forces but it would also help to stabilise its economy by spending less on defence imports. By addressing some key problems of marketing, Pakistan can become a major international player in exporting defence products ranging from small weapons to aircrafts and tanks.



Source: Ayesha Siddiqa-Agha, Pakistans Military Procurement and Military Build-up, 1979-99: In Search of a Policy, Palgrave, New York: 2001, p. 44..



References

*.
Malik Qasim Mustafa is a Research Fellow at the Institute of Strategic Studies, Islamabad. 

Defence Export Promotion Organisation: DEPO, DEPO, ::: DEPO - Defence Export Promotion Organization ::: 

Ahmad Faruqui, Rethinking the National Security: The Price of Strategic Myopia, Ashgate Publishing Limited, England, 2003, p. 41. 

Ibid. 

Defence Export Promotion Organisation: DEPO, op. cit. 

Pervaiz Iqbal Cheema, Pakistans Defence Policy: 1947-58, Sung-e-Meel Publication, Lahore, 1998, p. 119. 

Ibid. 

Ahmad Faruqui, Rethinking the National Security: The Price of Strategic Myopia, op. cit., p. 42. 

The deliveries included 400 M-47/48 Patton Main Battle Tank (MBT), 200 M-4 light Sherman tanks, 300 M-113s Armed Personnel Carriers (APCs), 12 F-140 supersonic interceptors, 120 F-86F fighter bombers, 26 B-57B light bombers, and T-33 jet trainers. These weapons were used to equip five and half divisions of the Pakistan army. Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, The Arms Trade Register, MIT Press, 1975. 

Air Cdre (Retd) Jamal Hussain, The Struggle for Self-Reliance in the PAF, Defence Journal, September 2001, PakSearch.com - Pakistan's Best Business site with Annual Reports, Laws and Articles dj/2001/September01/struggle.html 

Ayesha Siddiqa-Agha, Pakistans Military Procurement and Military Build-up, 1979-99: In Search of a Policy, Palgrave, New York, 2001, p. 110. 

Ahmad Faruqui, Rethinking the National Security: The Price of Strategic Myopia, op. cit., p. XXV. 

Pakistan Nuclear Weapons: A Chronology, Federation of American Scientists, Pakistan Special Weapons - A Chronology 

Ministry of Defence Production, Pakistan Special Weapons agency/mdp.htm 

Ddefence Industry and Infrastructure, Ironsides - Site Head Quarters army/pk.html#defind 

Pakistan Nuclear Weapons: A Chronology, Federation of American Scientists, Pakistan Special Weapons - A Chronology 

Arms for Peace is theme of the IDEAS, IDEAS 2000, http://www.ideaspakistan.com/2000/index1.htm 

IDEAS 2004, September 14-17, 2004, ..:: IDEAS PAKISTAN 2008 International Defence Exhibition & Seminar - Arms for Peace, 24 -28 November 2008 at Karachi Expo Centre ::.. pakistan.htm 

The Nations, October 1, 2004, http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/oct-2004/1/columns2.php 

Overview: Ministry of Defence, www.pakistan.gov.pk/defence-ministry/aboutministry/overview.jsp 

Overview: Defence Production Division, Pakistan.Gov.Pk - The Official Web Gateway to the Government of Pakistan defenceproduction-division/aboutus/overview.jsp 

Golden Jubilee of Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) Wah, December 28, 2001, Golden Jubilee of Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) Wah 

Pakistan Ordnance Factories, Pakistan Special Weapons facility/wah.htm, 

In 1999, M/s Moody International of UK awarded the ISO 9001 certificate to the entire 14 major industries and 6 departments of the POF. POF produces arms & ammo of German US, British and Chinese origin strictly to International standards of acceptance. 

Pakistan Ordnance Factories - Military Production Facility, for further details see the official web site of POF, www.pofwah.com.pk 

The two main subsidiaries namely Wah Industries Ltd. and Wah Nobel Ltd. were established to utilise spare capacities of factories for commercial applications, but later on Hi-Tech Plastics Ltd, Wah Nobel Chemical Ltd, Wah Nobel Detonators Ltd. and Attock Chemicals Ltd were set up to meet the requirements of the civilian market. These subsidiaries are earning significant profits annually thus adding to the national wealth. For more details visit, Wah Nobel Group of Companies 

Golden Jubilee of Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) Wah, op. cit. 

Pakistan Ordnance Factories - Military Production Facility, op. cit. 

Ibid. 

Ikram Sehgal, Towards Self-reliance: A Tank Factory for All Seasons, Defence Journal, July 1998, www.defencejournal.com/july98/ tankfactory.htm 

The Al Khalid is armed with a 125mm smoothbore gun, a 7.62mm co-axial machine gun and 12.7mm machine gun on the roof. The Al-Khalid is one of the newest and most deadly tanks in the world. It meets severe desert conditions, with high performance. It represents the ideal integration of firepower, mobility and protection. 

Taxila: Heavy Industries Taxila- HIT, Pakistan Special Weapons facility/taxila.htm 

Heavy Industries Taxila, DEPO, www.depo.org.pk/products/hit/ index.htm#RESEARCH 

Mission: Heavy Industries Taxila, DEPO, www.depo.org.pk/products/ hit/index.htm 

The development of a tank is a complex and time-consuming task. Countries like the USA, France and UK, which are advanced tank-producing nations, took more than a decade to field their tanks Abrams MI, Leclerc and Challenger respectively. India took more than 23 years to take a decision to equip only two regiments with Arjun tanks but prototypes have not been successful. 

Christopher F. Foss, Al Khalid MBT to enter production, Janes Defence Weekly, November 22, 2000, Jane's Information Group regional_news/asia_pacific/ news/jdw/jdw001122_1_n.shtml 

Pakistan's, $150 Million Contract Signed With Ukraine, Pakistani Defence, www.********************/news/MonthlyNewsArchive/ 2002/ April2002.htm 

Ikram Sehgal, Towards Self-reliance: A Tank Factory for All Seasons, op. cit. 

80 Al-Zarrar tanks handed over to army, Dawn, February 27, 2004, www.dawn.com 

Taxila: Heavy Industries Taxila- HIT, op. cit. 

PAC - Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, www.pakdef.info/ pakmilitary/ airforce/index.html 

Mirage Rebuild Factory, DEPO, www.depo.org.pk/products/ pac/mirage.htm 

Super Mushshak has a number of advantages over its predecessor, but the main selling point is the improved six cylinder Lycoming engine, which allows the Super Mushshak to reach a cruise speed of 130 Knots and 1700 ft/min rate of climb. 

For further details of Ababeel, Baz, Nishan, ect. see, ::: DEPO - Defence Export Promotion Organization ::: products/pac/kamra.htm 

Kamra Avionics and Radar Factory: Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, DEPO, http://www.depo.org.pk/products/pac/kamra.htm 

For further details see, Air Weapon Complex, Air Weapons Complex, Pakistan 

The AWC product range includes: HAFR-1: Anti Runway Weapon; IRST: Infra Red Search and Track System; 250 kg Pre-fragmented Bomb; 250 kg MK-82 Steel Bomb; 500 kg MK-83 Steel Bomb; 1000 kg MK-84 Steel Bomb; Air Burst Electronic Fuses (Impact and Detonating); Low/High Drag Tail Units; 25 lbs and 6 kg Practice Bombs; GPS: Global Positioning System; and the Mushshak Trainer Aircraft Products: Air Weapons Complex Pakistan, Air Weapons Complex, Pakistan 

The AWC embarked on a project for the indigenous development of UAV's in the middle of 1998. The Sky Tracker and Sky Navigator suite of software were developed for the ground-based tracking of remotely piloted vehicles (RPV's)/unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV's). The software gets the UAV's GPS positional data from a radio data link. This data is used to show the position of the UAV as a 2D plot along with essential UAV data like, speed, altitude, heading etc. This plot can be overlaid onto area maps also. This information is used by the pilot for flying the UAV beyond visual range. Kamra: Air Weapon Complex - AWC, Nuclear Forces Guide pakistan/facility/karma.htm 

Military Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (MVRDE), DEPO, ::: DEPO - Defence Export Promotion Organization ::: 

Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE), www.depo.org.pk/products/arde/index.htm 

Command and control, surveillance, movements both tactical and logistical and accuracy of firepower are some of the areas of activities in which the Night Vision Devices are playing a formidable and vital role Institute of Optronics, DEPO, www.depo.org.pk/products/iop/index.htm 

Margalla Electronics, DEPO, http://www.depo.org.pk/products/me/index.htm 

Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC), www.pakistan.gov.pk/defenceproduction-division/highlight-services.jsp 

Defence Science & Technology Organisation (DESTO) www.pakistan.gov.pk/defenceproduction-division/highlight-services.jsp 

Defence Science & Technology Organisation (DESTO), Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO), www.depo.org.pk/products/desto/index.htm 

For further details, visit Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works 

Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works, DEPO, www.depo.org.pk/products/ksew/index.htm 

Khalid Hanif, How Shaheen Was Developed, Jang, April 19, 1999. 

The ATLCS is used to automatically carry out the pre-launch testing procedures and the sequence of launching operations. In contrast to fixed launch sites, launchers provide the flexibility of launching missiles from remote places and at locations closer to the geographic boundaries. 

PN Dockyard, DEPO, www.depo.org.pk/products/pndk/index.htm 

Kahuta: Khan Research Laboratories, Kahuta - Pakistan Special Weapons Facilities 

For further details see, ::: DEPO - Defence Export Promotion Organization ::: 

Gen. Musharraf Asks Private Sector To Produce Arms For Export, Pakistani Defence, July 2002, S Asian Defence News July2002 

Malaysia-Pakistan Defence Cooperation Set To Grow: Defence Secretary, Pakistani Defence, January 2003, South Asian Defence News January 2003 

Pakistani Arms Exports Increased By 100%, Pakistani Defence, April 2002, www.********************/news/MonthlyNewsArchive/2002/ April2002.htm 

Malaysian Army to take Delivery of Pakistani Anti-Tank Rockets, Xinhua News Agency, April 10, 2002, ÐÂ»ªÍø_´«²¥ÖÐ¹ú ±¨µÀÊÀ½ç 

Malaysia Looking Into Buying Al-Khalid Tanks, Pakistani Defence, May 2002, S Asian Defence News May2002 

Pakistan Exports Fighter-trainer Planes, BBC, August 2, 2002, BBC NEWS | Business | Pakistan exports fighter-trainer planes 

Ibid. 

KSEW To Build Two Missile Craft For Pakistan Navy, Pakistani Defence, October 2002, www.********************/news/ MonthlyNewsArchive/2002/October2002.htm 

Pakistan Ready For Joint Ventures in Defence Industry: Gen. Qayyum, Pakistani Defence, January 2003, South Asian Defence News January 2003 

Defence Exports to Hit $130 Million this Year: DEPO, Pakistani Defence, June 2003, South Asian Defence News June 2003 

Ibid. 

Meeting Between Pakistani & UAE Air Chiefs Conclude, Pakistani Defence, June 4, 2003, South Asian Defence News June 2003 

Bangladesh and Pakistani Agree on Stronger Defence Ties, Pakistani Defence, June 2003 www.********************/news/MonthlyNewsArchive/2003June2003.htm 

Pakistan, Saudi Arabia Explore Joint Ventures in Defence Production, Space Daily, October 11, 2004, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia Explore Joint Ventures In Defence Production 

Pakistan Ordnance Factories Launches Rs. 4 Billion Upgrade Plan, Pakistani Defence, December 2002 S Asian Defence News December 2002 

Ibid. 

Interview, Major Gen. Ali Hamid, Director General Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO), Defence Journal, Vol. 8, No. 2, September 2004. 

Pakistan Defence Products have started to Mature, India Info, September 29, 2004, news.indiainfo.com/2004/09/29/2909pak.html 

Pakistans defence exports touch $100m, Pakistani Defence , September 16, 2004, www.********************/news/FullNews/2004/September 2004/DefExports100mil.htm 

Pakistan's, $150 Million Contract Signed with Ukraine, Pakistani Defence, April 2002, S Asian Defence News April2002 

Interview, Major Gen. Director General Defence Export Promotion Organisation, op. cit. 

PAKISTAN DEFENCE PRODUCTION: PROSPECTS FOR DEFENCE EXPORT


----------



## Neo

*JWDI briefing: Pakistan's defence industry ​*07 January 2008

Although there is no civilian involvement in its state-run defence production process at all - which has led to an extremely secretive, unorthodox and unobjective structure - it is clear that Pakistan's defence industries have benefited from a high level of government investment over a number of years. In 2007, the country's official defence budget increased by 9.13 per cent to USD4.54 billion, indicating a return to the large spending increases during 2001 to 2005. In addition to these finances, Pakistan receives substantial US aid as a key ally of the US in its 'war on terror'. 

As the government has sought to maximise national self-reliance over the past decade, considerable amounts of money have been received by the defence industries, which has led to the manufacturing of products that are generally of a high standard (some of which have ISO-9002 certification, which is not granted lightly and is regionally unknown). Many products are cheaper than similar items produced by Western countries, and of comparable reliability, which has had a positive effect on exports, which now stand at about USD200 million a year. 

The Pakistan government needs to do more, though, to encourage private industries to enter into defence. At present the system to enter into the defence production system is bureaucratic and excessively concerned with security, and this has dissuaded many companies from becoming involved. 

Unlike most countries, there is no structured approach to capital acquisition and programme management and budgeting - as is recognised on most other countries - is not practised. Moreover, defence spending transparency is virtually non-existent apart from the overall annual budget: the government provides no specifics. Widely accepted analysis indicates that the budget does not include military pensions, which account for about PKR30-40 billion, foreign military aid, procurement using foreign credit and procurement using funds generated by the Pakistani armed forces' diverse business interests. 

In 2007 the official defence budget increased by 9.13 per cent to USD4.54 billion. This rise represented a return to large spending increases between 2001 to 2005 when spending increases averaged about USD420 million or 13.54 per cent each year. The large increases were interrupted in 2006 when, despite an increase of 20 per cent in total government spending in the 2006/07 state budget and real economic growth of 6 per cent, defence spending as measured by the official budget increased by just under 3.8 per cent. Jane's Defence Budgets predicts that defence spending in Pakistan will rise to USD6.14 billion in 2010, with, on average, 10 per cent annual increases from 2007. 



Image: Pakistan Aeronautical Complex's MFI-17 Super Mushshak (Jane's/Patrick Allen) 

© 2008 Jane's Information Group

JWDI briefing: Pakistan's defence industry - Jane's Defence Business News


----------



## Neo

Astra said:


> 1. You are right, nobody is interested in flamers,
> 2. Appreciate that you have warned him.
> 
> Quesion: Why do I find lots of threads where people commenting about India are not even warned?
> 
> It would be highly appretiated if Administrators are neutral.
> 
> Thanks and Regards.



*Management is neutral, but we're unable to check each and every post here.
If you see abuses or rules violation kindly report and we'll take approperiate action.

Thanks!*


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

Did you guys know that there is a big shortage of 5.56 and other ammo here in the U S. The factories are hardly keeping up with manufacturing the rounds. Also for the handguns---the price of the rounds has gone up tremendously---police depts are having problems buying enough bullets for the poice officers to go to the firing range. The price is double to three times of what it was 6 years ago. 

I am pretty sure POF is making some money.


----------



## marktumi

malaymishra123 said:


> Japan has an excellent navy, second best in Asia ! And their Airforce is similar...
> 
> All right then, who's gonna be the first best NaVY in Asia?


----------



## Contrarian

marktumi said:


> malaymishra123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Japan has an excellent navy, second best in Asia ! And their Airforce is similar...
> 
> All right then, who's gonna be the first best NaVY in Asia?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who else?
> USN
Click to expand...


----------



## AlpErTunga

I think such a ranking is meaningless a bit. If you consider that the ever hugest naval campaign of the history, British-French campaign on the Dardanelles-&#199;anakkale, was defeated in Dardanelles by Turkish artillery; we can understand that more clear 

Also the most crowded army of the world, Chineese Army, was defeated in Kumyangjang-ni Battle by only a Turkish Regiment during Korea War.

Adding more examples is possible


----------



## Sino-PakFriendship

AlpErTunga said:


> I think such a ranking is meaningless a bit. If you consider that the ever hugest naval campaign of the history, British-French campaign on the Dardanelles-&#199;anakkale, was defeated in Dardanelles by Turkish artillery; we can understand that more clear
> 
> Also the most crowded army of the world, Chineese Army, was defeated in Kumyangjang-ni Battle by only a Turkish Regiment during Korea War.
> 
> Adding more examples is possible



But Turkey always loses to Russia in history.


----------



## ahussains

What a nice AVTAr you have buddy of a Sino Pak it really looks so good to me


----------



## AliFarooq

Heres my list.

1. Japan ( they have courage and crazy ppl)
2. China (Biggest Military in numbers and courage)
3. Russia (Really Smart, proved tht in WWI and WWII)
4. Germany (Really Ambitious)
5. USA (Depend on technology too much and all ways worried abt safety)
6/7 France and England
8) Turkey (They are better thn india and Pakistan)
9/10 Pakistan and India
11 Israill (Without American assistance they would be nothing, they get very emotional)
12) Iran (Unperdictable)

I based this list on abilities, and quality(of the people) not quantity.

I hope you guyz agree

Heres one more thing, when i made this list i did not look at if, they were nuclear power. No country is going to start a nuclear war, they not crazy, starting a nuclear war means killing them selves. So the nuclear war heads are for show only.


----------



## su-47

AliFarooq said:


> Heres my list.
> 
> 1. Japan ( they have courage and crazy ppl)
> 2. China (Biggest Military in numbers and courage)
> 3. Russia (Really Smart, proved tht in WWI and WWII)
> 4. Germany (Really Ambitious)
> 5. USA (Depend on technology too much and all ways worried abt safety)
> 6/7 France and England
> 8) Turkey (They are better thn india and Pakistan)
> 9/10 Pakistan and India
> 11 Israill (Without American assistance they would be nothing, they get very emotional)
> 12) Iran (Unperdictable)
> 
> I based this list on abilities, and quality(of the people) not quantity.
> 
> I hope you guyz agree
> 
> Heres one more thing, when i made this list i did not look at if, they were nuclear power. No country is going to start a nuclear war, they not crazy, starting a nuclear war means killing them selves. So the nuclear war heads are for show only.



even conventionally, USA and Russia are top 2. they have large well trained armies. Their failure in fighting terrorism and guerilla warfare doesnt mean they cant win wars. these countries can set back their enemies decades just by bombing their infrastructure into pupl.

Ok here's my top 10 conventional firepower list. I have taken into account size and training of armed forces, military technology and economic strength.

1) USA - large number of well trained, well supplied forces, most technologically advanced military backed by powerful economy.

2) Russia - large number of well trained, well supplied forces, good military technology, exceptional air defence capabilities. lots of oil and gas reserves to sustain a war.

3) China - largest army in the world. well trained and well equipped. armed forces being rapidly modernised. powerhouse economy.

4) Israel - very well trained, highly mechanized defence forces. very technologically advanced. lacks strategic depth. a lot of economic power due to US support. a real powerhouse as long as USA supports them. 

5/6/7/8) France, Japan, Germany, UK (not in that order) - cant really place these in order, but all have well trained, technologically advanced militaries backed by strong economies. 

9) India - large army. decent amount of mechanisation. lot of modernisation taking place. rising economy to support military. LACKS POLITICAL WILL. 

10) Turkey - large number of well trained forces. good amount of military technology.


----------



## AliFarooq

su-47 said:


> even conventionally, USA and Russia are top 2. they have large well trained armies. Their failure in fighting terrorism and guerilla warfare doesnt mean they cant win wars. these countries can set back their enemies decades just by bombing their infrastructure into pupl.
> 
> Ok here's my top 10 conventional firepower list. I have taken into account size and training of armed forces, military technology and economic strength.
> 
> 1) USA - large number of well trained, well supplied forces, most technologically advanced military backed by powerful economy.
> 
> 2) Russia - large number of well trained, well supplied forces, good military technology, exceptional air defence capabilities. lots of oil and gas reserves to sustain a war.
> 
> 3) China - largest army in the world. well trained and well equipped. armed forces being rapidly modernised. powerhouse economy.
> 
> 4) Israel - very well trained, highly mechanized defence forces. very technologically advanced. lacks strategic depth. a lot of economic power due to US support. a real powerhouse as long as USA supports them.
> 
> 5/6/7/8) France, Japan, Germany, UK (not in that order) - cant really place these in order, but all have well trained, technologically advanced militaries backed by strong economies.
> 
> 9) India - large army. decent amount of mechanisation. lot of modernisation taking place. rising economy to support military. LACKS POLITICAL WILL.
> 
> 10) Turkey - large number of well trained forces. good amount of military technology.



haha, bombing was also so deacades ago. Do u think countries havent learned from their past lol?

If u talkin abt wel trained, thn india shldnt be in their.


Plus turkey is better trained and better equipped thn idian. then u also forgot pakistan .


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## SinoIndusFriendship

Top military powers can be categorized into 3 groups, with members within each group roughly 'equivalent':

(1) 'super'-powers:
USA - China - Russia

(2) 'continental'-powers:
India - Pakistan - Japan - France - UK - Germany - Israel

(3) 'regional'-powers:
Iran - Indonesia - Brazil - Mexico - SK - NK - Egypt - Turkey (and some others)


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## SinoIndusFriendship

AliFarooq said:


> haha, bombing was also so deacades ago. Do u think countries havent learned from their past lol?
> 
> If u talkin abt wel trained, thn india shldnt be in their.
> 
> 
> Plus turkey is better trained and better equipped thn idian. then u also forgot pakistan .



A lot has to do with (1) morale, (2) civilian & national support structure, (3) economic strength for a prolonged war, and *MOST IMPORTANTLY *strategy. Take the Art-of-War.

I'll give 2 example of nations that has state-of-the-art weaponry and a fairly robust economy but can be brought down EASILY: (1) Saudi Arabia and (2) Israel. In the case of Saudi Arabia whose main engine of prosperity is oil exports & imports roughly 85% of all food --- you stop the flow of either (or both) and the nation collapses into total chaos (and massive deaths in tens of millions) in only a few weeks. If you want the people to die off quicker, send a few missiles to destroy the oil fields/refineries and water-desalination plants. How long can a human survive WITHOUT WATER in the hot, dry desert??? For the young and healthy it takes only a few days, not much more.

I can also explain how Israel can be quickly 'exterminated' in a few weeks (I'll let you imagine how yourself ). Regimes with tiny landmass and with its population concentrated in highly dense areas make for easy targets!


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## PeacefulIndian

5th thread that you have dug out from the grave, per my count. I am sure there are many more.


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## oct605032048

every army is devised to fight and win wars in certain area, russian are strong but they failed in afganistan, the US is superpower but they retreated from somalia. i don't think such lists are of great value, for they dosen't take into account the where and when the war breaks.


----------



## gambit

cevery army is devised to fight and win wars in certain area, russian are strong but they failed in afganistan,[/quote]Why did the Soviets failed to subjugate Afghanistan?



oct605032048 said:


> the US is superpower but they retreated from somalia.


Why did the US so shamefully retreat from Somalia?



oct605032048 said:


> i don't think such lists are of great value, for they dosen't take into account the where and when the war breaks.


Bad argument.

The role of a military is also about deterrent as much as about the capabilities and ability to conduct a war. For either of the above situations, why no one attacked the Soviets or the US after their respective failures?


----------



## insas91

AliFarooq said:


> Heres my list.
> 
> 1. Japan ( they have courage and crazy ppl)
> 2. China (Biggest Military in numbers and courage)
> 3. Russia (Really Smart, proved tht in WWI and WWII)
> 4. Germany (Really Ambitious)
> 5. USA (Depend on technology too much and all ways worried abt safety)
> 6/7 France and England
> 8) Turkey (They are better thn india and Pakistan)
> 9/10 Pakistan and India
> 11 Israill (Without American assistance they would be nothing, they get very emotional)
> 12) Iran (Unperdictable)
> 
> I based this list on abilities, and quality(of the people) not quantity.
> 
> I hope you guyz agree
> 
> Heres one more thing, when i made this list i did not look at if, they were nuclear power. No country is going to start a nuclear war, they not crazy, starting a nuclear war means killing them selves. So the nuclear war heads are for show only.



This has to be the funniest post I have ever seen on this forum.


----------



## Tahu3800

Top 10 Military Powers:
1. European Union
2. United States of America 
3. People's Republic of China 
4. Russian Federation
5. Republic of India
6. Japan
7. Brazil
8. Turkey
9. South Korea
10. Indonesia
11-20 in order
Pakistan , Taiwan, Mexico, Israel, Canada, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Ukraine, Eygpt, Thailand


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## Kompromat

*East and west Pakistan is the Best*


----------



## SU-57E

@ black blood

yours was the most informative and revealing post in the thread... CONGRATULATIONS.......

---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

s.raptorski said:


> @ black blood
> 
> yours was the most informative and revealing post in the thread... CONGRATULATIONS.......
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------
> 
> :




i saw things getting too stuffed Cheers


----------



## BlackSonic

I am going a bit off topic but i feel that if there is any war between two nations in future they will refrain from using their nukes, or war will be over before one can use it's nukes.

So if you want to rank military powers than don't count their nuke capability. But Please keep in mind that this is just a number game.


----------



## Seadog1

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> A lot has to do with (1) morale, (2) civilian & national support structure, (3) economic strength for a prolonged war, and *MOST IMPORTANTLY *strategy. Take the Art-of-War.
> 
> I'll give 2 example of nations that has state-of-the-art weaponry and a fairly robust economy but can be brought down EASILY: (1) Saudi Arabia and (2) Israel. In the case of Saudi Arabia whose main engine of prosperity is oil exports & imports roughly 85% of all food --- you stop the flow of either (or both) and the nation collapses into total chaos (and massive deaths in tens of millions) in only a few weeks. If you want the people to die off quicker, send a few missiles to destroy the oil fields/refineries and water-desalination plants. How long can a human survive WITHOUT WATER in the hot, dry desert??? For the young and healthy it takes only a few days, not much more.
> 
> I can also explain how Israel can be quickly 'exterminated' in a few weeks (I'll let you imagine how yourself ). Regimes with tiny landmass and with its population concentrated in highly dense areas make for easy targets!



I also think Israel could be taken out in a few weeks,, but they would take the entire Middle East with them.


----------



## SU-57E

even though a lot of people may disagree from me but IMHO a full fledged war like ARAB-ISRAEL war is not possible now. too much at stake for too little to gain. so its just spectulative to guess the prowess of the countries.
no two countries will go for while untilll and unless their gap is like US-IRAQ or US-AFGHANISTAN.


----------



## Seadog1

sahaliyan said:


> US is only superpower,and remain so before 2050,no country can overtake US
> As for Russia,they are power no doubt,but they can't compare with US anymore



I agree,,, *people just cant understand that the USSR is gone*,,,Russia has only about 10 percent of the USA Economy and Military, the only way that Russia can remain world player in the military area is by selling military equipment world wide,,, but that means it gets into the hands of the USA that developes counter measures rapidly.


----------



## Seadog1

KENT said:


> Just tell me in which area Pakistan top to Iran. I think it will be the Nukes other then that there is nothing anything you can bring to outperform Iran.



Irans military is divided between the Iran Guard and the Regular Military,,,Some of their generals have defected and there has been mass arrests of officer in the Regular Military that supported the oppositon in the recent election.. Irans air force is badly out dated
I would put Pakistan military far ahead of Irans.


----------



## RiazHaq

I think the economic strength and internal capacity to build and sustain a war machine is extremely important in assessing military strengths. Judged by these criteria, I would not consider India or Pakistan in the top 10 list. Both are heavily dependent on others for most of their armaments and technology. 

Haq's Musings: India-Pakistan Military Balance


----------



## Seadog1

I expect to see some major changes in USA forces in Afganstan in the next ten years I think they will be reduced to a few thousand Special Forces Troops and increases by the thousands in drones....any vehicle that does not have a special license on its hood will be a target,, any one that fails to go thru a check point on the borders will be a target,,, any one carrying a gun in a free fire zone will be a target.....of course if there are no attacks on american targets that will not be necessary but I figure its going to be war ever lasting I have given up hope of there ever being peace.


----------



## applesauce

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Top military powers can be categorized into 3 groups, with members within each group roughly 'equivalent':
> 
> (1) 'super'-powers:
> USA - China - Russia
> 
> (2) 'continental'-powers:
> India - Pakistan - Japan - France - UK - Germany - Israel
> 
> (3) 'regional'-powers:
> Iran - Indonesia - Brazil - Mexico - SK - NK - Egypt - Turkey (and some others)



made some changes

(0)"*hyper power*"
*USA*- unmatched conventionally, nuclear equal with russia, unmatched navy, have world's TWO best air-force -> the usaf and usnaf, even though it imports alot of fuel its domestic production is one of the worlds largest, enough to keep the military rolling in an emergency. its current economy and federal spending is a concern however and if it continues, will have large consequences in the future. premier space power, ie: spy satellites, gps . has anti satellite capability. has UNSC permanent seat

(1) '*super'-powers*random order)
*China* ->largest army(without conscription mind you), has UNSC permanent seat,massive modernization in every field, backed by world's fastest growing large economy. has to import alot of fuel, relatively poor quality of its navy is a major concern as well as certain areas of the military such as advanced jet engines, which will depend on whether the next gen project is successful in removing this weakness. is a space power, has spy satellites and planned gps like capability(currently local only), has anti-satellite capability.

*Russia* -> lots of fuel,smaller economy based on energy/defense exports, lack of funds, otherwise fighting with china for second place and for the time being china is in a better position, however russia has some very advanced weapons such as the s-400 sams and missile designs. is a space power has the glonass network. has anti-satellite capability, has UNSC permanent seat.

(2) *'continental'-powers:*(random order)
*India* - large army, fast growing economy, military modernizations taking place, has some advanced projects in place with russia, however, poor infrastructure, red tape/bureaucracy and lack of a large domestic manufacturing base all hold back its potential, also majority of major weapons systems are purchased from other nations. domestic attempts to develop and manufacture advanced weapons in house has be met with very limited success. is a growing space power with increasing confidence in its own launch capability, is in commercial launch business. its navy is strongest(not counting usn) in its operating area
* 
Pakistan* - large army, has a capable though not advanced airforce, the navy is rather weak but enough to deter naval blockades, has a growing aircraft manufacturing capacity, currently engaged in conflict against terrorist, while this may be a drag to the country, it does provide for valuable experience. in deals to attain more advanced jets such as f-16,j-10. has a capable missile force though domestic space(satellite) launches are not yet achieved

*Japan* - large economy, is an advanced nation with however a pacifist constitution. powerful navy able to compete with china and Russia by its own waters. has a large fleet of advanced aircraft. space power though mainly for civilian purposes. non-existent army due to defensive nature of the military
should the navy be defeated the country can face shortages of fuel, food, and many other essentials. aging population and economy has been lackluster for years.

*France* - designs own advanced aircraft with a powerful air force, credible navy with advanced ships, generally acts a part of another force rather than on its own(nato, UN ect.).has UNSC permanent seat

*UK* - navy power, has advanced air force in the characteristics of developed western nations, spearheaded the attack in the 1991 UN operation against Iraq, support force in 2003. has UNSC permanent seat. however the financial situation is urgent, even warranting talk of a credit/investment downgrade. north sea fuel sources are running out leading to total dependence on imports

*Germany* - some of the best tanks in the world, large economy. western developed power(air, navy, army), though the eastern half of the country still somewhat lags behind the western half. world is hesitant to rearmy germandy after ww2. has very capable engineers

*Israel* - very well trained and armed army. has a large, well trained airforce operating some very advanced aircraft. however it is surround by competitors if not enemies. has capable navy to guard its coast against its neighbors though it is not large. suffers constant terrorist/partisan attacks. its military has proven itself many times over the past decades.

(3) 'regional'-powers:
Iran - 
Indonesia - 
Brazil - 
Mexico - 
SK - much smaller military compared with its principle threat, north korea, however the military planning is including us support

NK - large army and airforce. however without its nukes it is actually one of the weakest military powers in its region, with russia and china to the north and SK with US military to the south, all assessments see that in event of a war seoul will be flatten by artillery alone but other-wise the north is deprived of fuel and food cannot fight on for long and the quality of its equipment lags far behind all of its neighbors. 
Egypt - 
Turkey - 
(and some others)-

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## SU-57E

@applesauce
very well written post .....congratulations..
but imo france and britain as of now are better than india and pakista... 
however in future this may change.


----------



## Hussein

Seadog1 said:


> Irans military is divided between the Iran Guard and the Regular Military,,,Some of their generals have defected and there has been mass arrests of officer in the Regular Military that supported the oppositon in the recent election.. Irans air force is badly out dated
> I would put Pakistan military far ahead of Irans.


Regular army since the after elections said they would not interfere and act against people, as it is not their job.
But it is long story. Regular army was the shah army which still worked for Iran after revolution. There are two reasons why guardians became much more important : bani sadr = iran had to create army to fight saddam army who was invading iran + religious army means fiedlity to the leader more sure.
army changed a lot after war especially bassijis who have a lot of profits. and since ahmadinejad pasdarans are getting the most powerful control of economy.
but from inside i can say you that the regular army is down.
about pasdarans they have far less possiblity than Pakistan and even Saudis. Iran having big problem with pieces to replace fr the planes. it is a big catastrophic situation.
So what we see from Iran is mostly a lot of blabla. We only can be good to resist and make hell to invaders. But we have no possiblity to attack. The only possibility to show we would be strong is having nukes. but it is another story...


----------



## sweetboy

Neo said:


> *
> Middle Powers (missing 3-6)
> South Korea (Nukes, P5 Seat, Population) -3
> Pakistan (Blue Water Navy, Economy, P5 Seat) -3
> Iran (Nukes, Blue Water Navy, Population, Economy, P5 Seat)-4
> *


*
what do u mean by this that pakistan have no nukes*


----------



## Stealth

yaar uffffffffffffff simple very simple answer of this third

India is the BIG super power
India is regional power
Su30 MKI superior to all Aircrafts even JSF 35 and F22 but not Super hornet because Indians dont want to under estimate Super hornet because SH also chances to join IAF fleet 
India have the most powerfull cartoonish oh means best Media ever
even u guys knows hidden truth even NASA made by Indians lol
India now adays very busy in development of 7 generation Fighter LCA Tejas with the most powerfull technology "Hidden Techs".
India making world top best Tank Arjun lol

Simple why you always people under estimate India ?? kindly in TOP TEN powerfull list always start from 2nd not from first because no one can beat India in everything..

Just india have one problem "Cry baby" lol

*HAVE A BREAK HAVE A KIT KAT!!!*




applesauce said:


> (2) *'continental'-powers:[/B
> India -
> 
> its navy is strongest(not counting usn) in its operating area*


*


Exactly 2 boats kick so called most Strongest Navy lol

Continental power ? wow new thing added in my knowledge.

Much Continental power even kuch baat manwanay aur kehnay kiliye itne himat nahe kay kudh kahay Russia aur America say kahta hey insay kaho ye kardain jesay kay aaj kal Russia say kah raha hey kay insay kahoo stop bla bla blaa WHAT A CONTINENTAL POWER! lol

--------------------------------------------------

Now waiting for this post "Trolling by Pakistani"

When we say something so thats Troll but when Indian say something that is "Figure and facts" ya ya ya lol*


----------



## white_pawn

> Originally Posted by Neo
> *
> Middle Powers (missing 3-6)
> South Korea (Nukes, P5 Seat, Population) -3
> Pakistan (Blue Water Navy, Economy, P5 Seat) -3
> Iran (Nukes, Blue Water Navy, Population, Economy, P5 Seat)-4*


*




sweetboy said:



what do u mean by this that pakistan have no nukes

Click to expand...


Sweetboy, its other way round, i.e. Pakistan do not have "Blue Water Navy, Economy, P5 Seat" capability or status at the moment. 

The list in the front of the country name is the capability or status that country dosen't have. 

Hope its cleared now. *


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## r4rehan

HELLO FRNDS 

i think u guys forget one more important ARMY who fought with Super Powers, and Brock the Super Power ,,
Exp: BRITISH , U.S.S.R and now U.S.A and an other roman forces,
now a days we know them as a name of TALIBAN (AFGHANISTAN) who dint attack any other country (Not a T.T.P),,,, 
Taliban don't neither has a advance weapons nor arsenal collection but whole world accept there skills, i m not a taliban but turth is turth ...
they has a guts to fight with Super Powers . . . 
now U.S.A wants to run from Afghanistan just because of TALIBAN ,,, 

they are the men who can die but cant leave as a bondman.

i can't comments about others  

and sorry for my poor ENGLISH 



<(_|_)| AKBAR


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## Kuuba

IMHO:

Top M2, with superb full-spectrum military tech, population, strategic depth, resource, and morale
1. USA 
2. Russia 

3. China (large population and superb mobilization, good economy)
4. Germany (economy, tech, resource)
5. Japan (superb tech, good economy, devotion, but no resource and strategic depth)
6. UK
7. Israel (no space and small population)
8. France (miserable war history though)
9. India (good economy)
10. ??

/Pakistan - not rich enough... /Brazil/Turkey/South Korea /North Korea - poverty-stricken...


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## Jumeirah

Dont think Japan should be in the top 10 as they have a adopted a lot of constitutional restriction after WW!! in regards to military

Brazil and Iran should def be in the top 10. Brazil is a big expoter of military weapons.


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## Kuuba

Jumeirah said:


> Dont think Japan should be in the top 10 as they have a adopted a lot of constitutional restriction after WW!! in regards to military
> 
> Brazil and Iran should def be in the top 10. Brazil is a big expoter of military weapons.



We are talking about capability and potential. Peace Constitution could be changed anytime. Don't forget how Germany came to power before WWII. 

Iran's economy and tech are not good enough...


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## Jumeirah

Kuuba said:


> We are talking about capability and potential. Peace Constitution could be changed anytime. Don't forget how Germany came to power before WWII.
> 
> Iran's economy and tech are not good enough...



Fair enough mate...but i still thing to be in the top 10, tech and ecomomic might is important because conventional troops are no use in a inter continental war.

And yes donot forget that Germany came to power because of the huge economy boost the Nazi did in the 1930. Massive expenditure in Weapons.

Dont think Pakistan can make it in the top 10 with your critirea as right now there is a huge civil war in the entire country yet the military does not have the capability to stabilise it.


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## mijanur

wth...wers britain in here, they hav the brains and strength


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## bigmoneymaker

BRITAIN,??? INDEED THEY HAVE SOME TECH RESERVES LEFT BY DILIGENT ANCESTORS BUT I DONT THINK THEY NOW HAVE THE WILLPOWER LIKE THAT DURING BRITISH EMPIRE ERA TO FIRMLY RISE AGAIN AS A WORLD DOMINANT POWER.....YOU WILL SEE THE BRITAIN IS BEING GETTING MARGINALISED IN WORLD EVERCHANGING LANDSCAPE........


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## pakpower

1. USA
2. China
3. Russia
4. Pakistan
5. France
6. England
7. Germany
8. Turkey
9. Israel
10. India

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## tank

1. USA
2. EU
3.Russia
4.China
5.India
6.Japan
7.Pakistan
8.Israel
9.Brasil
10.Iran/Turkey


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## Red Dwarf

How strong is North Korea. I heard that apart from their rusty junk weapons, they have a huge stock of chemical weapons. Is there any truth in it


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## paritosh

pakpower said:


> 1. USA
> 2. China
> 3. Russia
> 4. Pakistan
> 5. France
> 6. England
> 7. Germany
> 8. Turkey
> 9. Israel
> 10. India


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## pakpower

paritosh said:


>



 mirchi lagee kaya?


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## Novice09

pakpower said:


> mirchi lagee kaya?



1. Pakistan  happy





pakpower said:


> 5. France
> 6. England
> 7. Germany
> 8. Turkey
> 9. Israel



Look at the countries which are after Pakistan   and please don't include India in your top 10 list, we don't need it.

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## pakpower

Novice09 said:


> 1. Pakistan  happy
> 
> 
> You think it's funny?
> 
> 
> Look at the countries which are after Pakistan   and please don't include India in your top 10 list, we don't need it.


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## Jigs

Turkey should never be listed below Pakistan or Iran this is common sense as we have the most advanced air force after Israel and the largest naval force in the region. Not to mention our army is massive and uses modern equipment.


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## gogbot

Jigs said:


> Turkey should never be listed below Pakistan or Iran this is common sense as we have the most advanced air force after Israel and the largest naval force in the region. Not to mention our army is massive and uses modern equipment.



But Pak has the Bomb and you do not.

That defeats all your Conventional power.
Not that Pak would ever use it on you but that is fact.


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## Jigs

Like you said it wouldn't be used but in the sense of who has the bomb and who doesn't Pakistan would be ahead in all other areas turkey is ahead which overall should rank it higher. 

Also turkey houses B61 so technically we could use these unauthorized by the U.S./NATO if we ever wanted (which wouldn't be smart at all)since technically the U.S. has control over these . Since we are part of the NATO sharing program if it is ordered by NATO for use of the B-61s we would be the ones delivering them.

This of course would totally depend on the circumstances but we need to view military capability over who has a nuclear device imo.


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## S-2

Turkey chooses not to have a bomb. My sense is that they'd be entirely capable of producing a nuclear weapon based upon an indigenous design and manufacturing base and coupled to a damned sophisticated delivery means in no time, relatively.

Turkey is a member of N.A.T.O. So too is Greece. Both are N.A.T.O. allies. Both are ancient enemies. Turkey understands, as does Greece, how a nuclear arms race to the eastern mediterranean might fully de-stabilize that region.

Pretty enlightened of the Turkish government.

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## Pax Ottomana

S-2 said:


> Turkey chooses not to have a bomb. My sense is that they'd be entirely capable of producing a nuclear weapon based upon an indigenous design and manufacturing base and coupled to a damned sophisticated delivery means in no time, relatively.
> 
> Turkey is a member of N.A.T.O. So too is Greece. Both are N.A.T.O. allies. Both are ancient enemies. Turkey understands, as does Greece, how a nuclear arms race to the eastern mediterranean might fully de-stabilize that region.
> 
> Pretty enlightened of the Turkish government.



Agreed. It should be noted however that Turkey does host a number of tactical nuclear weapons (B61) for NATO, most sources will quote around 90 warheads. These bombs are designed by delivery via F-16s and F-4s in case of an utmost emergency. Greece also had a number of B61s, but they gave up theirs in the early 90's following the collapse of the Soviet Union. Aside from that, we think it is in our best interest to keep our military conventional for the time being. It makes us strive for greater tehnological achievements and work on expanding our defence industry.


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## Pax Ottomana

Here's my list. Considering not only gear, numbers or tech, but also history, military tradition, location, raw resources, etc.:

1. EU (combined)
2. USA
3. China
4. Russia
5. India
6. Pakistan
7. Turkey
8. South Korea
9. Saudi Arabia
10. Brazil


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## S-2

*"It should be noted however that Turkey does host a number of tactical nuclear weapons (B61) for NATO"*

I served in the cold-war U.S. Army nuclear artillery. We maintained warhead detachments at special ammunition supply points in Turkey. There's little question but that we intended to "nuclearize" your conventional artillery should war have occurred with the Soviet Union.


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## RiazHaq

I found some interesting rankings of military strengths of various nations on globalfirepower.com.

Here are rankings:

1. USA
2. China
3. Russia
4. India
5. UK
6. France
7. Germany
8. Brazil
9. Japan
10. Turkey
11. Israel
12. South Korea
13. Italy
14. Indonesia
15. Pakistan
16. Taiwan
17. Egypt
18. Iran
19. Mexico
20. North Korea


Haq's Musings: India-Pakistan Military Balance

Haq's Musings: Assessing Pakistan Army's Capabilities


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## FreekiN

Nukes aside:

00 - Nature
01 - United States
02 - Russia
03 - China
04 - Britain
05 - France
06 - India
07 - Pakistan
08 - Israel - a lil more a lil less depends
09 - North Korea
10 - South Korea
11 - Iran
12 - Turkey
13 - Saudi Arabia
14 - Egypt
15 - Vietnam
16 - Brazil
17 - Iraq - pre-2003

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## JoshPaul

I would like your opinion on my choices. 

1. USA
2. China
3. UK
4. Russia
5. France
6. Germany
7. Turkey
8. India
9. Pakistan
10. Italy

Edit: I realize Russia is above UK now.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

USA
China
russia
india
Pakistan
E.U including turkey
saudis
israel
North Korea
indonesians
E.U countries dont have the capacity to attack countries like india or pakistan alone?


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## JoshPaul

Off course they do. Uk and France are both Nuclear Capable and are in the top five military spenders. UK, France, Germany and even Italy could take on Pakistan Israel can not project her power and is purley defensive and Indonesia is only an Economic Power.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

josh with an army of no hardly 10000 and fewer then 500 tanks are u serious?

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## BlackenTheSky

i think pakistan is the best.not patriotically but see US cant fight on mountains whereas pakistan have flushed their enemies on mountain areas,similar enemies to US which he couldnt defeat in 8 years so far.


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## Conqueror

dez said:


> i think pakistan is the best.not patriotically but see US cant fight on mountains whereas pakistan have flushed their enemies on mountain areas,similar enemies to US which he couldnt defeat in 8 years so far.



Pakistan is a jewel in the crown and God has set this country to perform a role. We are still existing in spite of world-powers want to see this land broken into 5+ pieces and no matter how weak we are, we are still very good in defending this territory from full blown attacks. 

Pakistan will exist and will flourish because the "jobs" that we are to do are huge.

In my listing

USA
Russia
China
England
Germany
France
India
Japan
Turkey
Korea
Pakistan
KSA
Israel
Iran

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## JoshPaul

The UK army has over 150,000 soilders, 114,000 when not counting the TA, France has 225,000 men Germany 250,000 and Italy 240,000. The SAS is the best trained military force in the world and the british soilder is the best trained in the world, which is why most nations in NATO send their officers to Sandhurst to train. The UK spends 63 Billion and is expected to put in 20 Billion more in 2010 giving them the second highest military budget. France spends slightly more than britain. Germany spends 45 Billion and Italy spends 42 Billion. Compared to Indias 32 Billion and Pakistans 4 Billion. And no European Nation has only 500 Tanks, minus Micronations. In all honesty your knowledge of European Military leaves allot to be desired. Pakistan are nothing compared to the European Powers and neither is India. And Britain has, at the VERY least, 4000 tanks in service and almost surley more.


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## JoshPaul

Conqueror said:


> Pakistan is a jewel in the crown and God has set this country to perform a role. We are still existing in spite of world-powers want to see this land broken into 5+ pieces and no matter how weak we are, we are still very good in defending this territory from full blown attacks.
> 
> Pakistan will exist and will flourish because the "jobs" that we are to do are huge.
> 
> In my listing
> 
> USA
> Russia
> China
> England
> Germany
> France
> India
> Japan
> Turkey
> Korea
> Pakistan
> KSA
> Israel
> Iran



I agree with your list for the most part though would change England to Britain. I would put France above of Germany as they spend more on their military and have Nuclear Capabilities. China above Russia due to thier numbers. Your statments about Pakistan is very true and although you only spend 4 Billion on your military, 31st out of the world, few would dare invade.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Josh can UK take on PAKISTAN militarily alone without NATOs support?
Can israel?
Japan?Germany?turkey?KOREA with malnourished soldiers which trades weapons for its sole survival NO OFFENCE?
You guys can barely win from RAG TAG taliban who litteral have a AK 47 and a shawl to wear in freezing weather do you think you can take on an nuclear armed country with an army of more then Half a MILLION soldiers rich with battle experience?


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## JoshPaul

Yes, without a shadow of a doubt. Number are nothing the British Soilder goes through more training than any other. The Pakistanit Military spends less than most European Nations. Britain has more and better Nuclear Weapons, State of the art technology in all fields and the second highest ability to project power after the USA Army. Compared to UK,USA,FRANCE,GERMANY,RUSSIA,CHINA,TURKEY and many others Pakistan is nothing. It has a terrible Economy and any 1st world nation could destroy it. Britain could destroy it with a simple Nuclear Missle Launch, not one missle obviously, Pakistan has poverty problems and all in all Britain has the best trained soilders in the world.


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## BrahmaChellaney

JoshPaul said:


> The UK army has over 150,000 soilders, 114,000 when not counting the TA, France has 225,000 men Germany 250,000 and Italy 240,000.



Josh, the numbers are pathetic when compared to that of India or Paksitan.

We are discussing whether these countries alone can engage Pakistan or India.

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## Ruag

If we consider only conventional capability (i.e. ignore the nuclear arsenal), then the top 10 list would be as followed - 

1) United States
2) Russia
3) China
4) India
5) Germany
6) United Kingdom
7) France
8) Pakistan
9) Israel
10) Spain

Fact remains that almost all major powers either have nuclear weapons or enjoy protection under NATO nuclear weapons sharing program. Therefore, if any of the nations listed above go to war with each other, then use of nuclear weapons by either one of them will most certainly result in mutually assured destruction. Therefore, it is pointless to consider a country's nuclear weapons stockpile while compiling the top 10 list.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

JoshPaul said:


> Yes, without a shadow of a doubt. Number are nothing the British Soilder goes through more training than any other. The Pakistanit Military spends less than most European Nations. Britain has more and better Nuclear Weapons, State of the art technology in all fields and the second highest ability to project power after the USA Army. Compared to UK,USA,FRANCE,GERMANY,RUSSIA,CHINA,TURKEY and many others Pakistan is nothing. It has a terrible Economy and any 1st world nation could destroy it. Britain could destroy it with a simple Nuclear Missle Launch, not one missle obviously, Pakistan has poverty problems and all in all Britain has the best trained soilders in the world.


A PAKISTANI soldier goes under training for a period of 1 year and other courses like HALO or HAHO etc are conducted from period to period.Reguarding economy if military strenght depends on it then UK is behind usa,china,germany russia etc reguarding NUKES lol england has a size of about the smallest province of PAKISAN for it only 4 nukes are enough to wike those 80 milion people,Note=PAKISTAN has more then 80 nukes more then india according to a recent report by WESTERN MEDIA.
If UK soldiers were so well trained why did 20000 die in the afghan war?Why did u almost lose a war in falkland?why cant you control IRA?why cant you control iraq and afghanistan?Watching its recorrd you should be placed near brazil or the saudis,


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## FreekiN

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> A PAKISTANI soldier goes under training for a period of 1 year and other courses like HALO or HAHO etc are conducted from period to period.Reguarding economy if military strenght depends on it then UK is behind usa,china,germany russia etc reguarding NUKES lol england has a size of about the smallest province of PAKISAN for it only 4 nukes are enough to wike those 80 milion people,Note=*PAKISTAN has more then 80 nukes more then india according to a recent report by WESTERN MEDIA.*
> If UK soldiers were so well trained why did 20000 die in the afghan war?Why did u almost lose a war in falkland?why cant you control IRA?why cant you control iraq and afghanistan?Watching its recorrd you should be placed near brazil or the saudis,



Umm, no. Pakistan has 65-105 nukes estimated. India has 45-95 nukes estimated. So Pakistan only has about 10-15 more atm.

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## Red Dwarf

I cannot grasp the idea of creating hundreds on nuclear weapons. Why US and Russia created 1000+ nuclear weapons when a small number is enough to teach a lesson.

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## Maddy2105

Red Dwarf said:


> I cannot grasp the idea of creating hundreds on nuclear weapons. Why US and Russia created 1000+ nuclear weapons when a small number is enough to teach a lesson.



Good Question.....its like thy plan to nuke the whole solar system


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## TaimiKhan

This is a never ending talk, as such list can never be fully accurate. 

Technology and nukes are not the only parameter to suggest the superiority. 

With a nuke even a layman becomes powerful enough. 

Real factors would be, training, numbers, quality, quantity, technological level of equipment, peacetime activities, operational experience (meaning wars and other operations), delivery systems, recon systems, quality of aircraft and other sub systems, quality of naval ships and sub systems etc etc etc.

And then what i consider one of the most important factor, Will of the Soldiers to fight, as even with all the advanced weapons and training, it one lacks the will to fight, then that army can't win the war or battle no matter how much numbers they have. This we have seen from past, when superior armies in quality and quantity defeated by inferior in numbers and quality armies on numerous occasions. 

So you guys can keep arguing who is the best or what is the rank, but the real figure may never be achieved until they come face to face and prove their metal.

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## Kinshuk

Agreed with moderator. Like US didn't prove in Afghan, still fighting, whats the use of such sophisticated technology when you can't clear out bunch of extremists? Though here's the link World Military Strength Ranking
1
U.S.A.
2
China
3
Russia
4
India
5
U.K.
6
France
7
Germany
8
Brazil
9
Japan
10
Turkey

11
Israel
12
South Korea
13
Italy
14
Indonesia
15
Pakistan
16
Taiwan
17
Egypt
18
Iran
19
Mexico
20
North Korea


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## gambit

Kinshuk said:


> Agreed with moderator. Like US didn't prove in Afghan, still fighting, *whats the use of such sophisticated technology when you can't clear out bunch of extremists?*


Absolutely...Then we should make the list more...eeerrr...'realistic':

1- Afghanistan
10- United States

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## Mak Kam




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## Kinshuk

gambit said:


> Absolutely...Then we should make the list more...eeerrr...'realistic':
> 
> 1- Afghanistan
> 10- United States


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

USA
CHINA 
RUSSIA
INDIA
PAKISTAN
E.U COUNTRIES INCLUDING TURKEY
ISRAEL
JAPAN
SAUDIS
KOREA
IRAN MAYBE NOT 
Rest are babies


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## vandemataram

JoshPaul said:


> Yes, without a shadow of a doubt. Number are nothing the British Soilder goes through more training than any other. The Pakistanit Military spends less than most European Nations. Britain has more and better Nuclear Weapons, State of the art technology in all fields and the second highest ability to project power after the USA Army. Compared to UK,USA,FRANCE,GERMANY,RUSSIA,CHINA,TURKEY and many others Pakistan is nothing. It has a terrible Economy and any 1st world nation could destroy it. Britain could destroy it with a simple Nuclear Missle Launch, not one missle obviously, Pakistan has poverty problems and all in all Britain has the best trained soilders in the world.



Well well, there is much more to war strategy than what you think. While being nationalistic or even to an extent over-nationalistic is good, but doe not make an army the best or the proverbial number 1 in the world.

No denying fact that UK is a developed country will high levels of industrialisation and standards of living, it becomes irrelevant while fighting and winning wars.

Time has poved to the world the utter failure to "manage" things in Afghanistan and Iraq, by the NATO and allied forces which includes the largest number of British troops apart from American troops.

As our Pakistani friends would agree it is a completely different ball game here in the sub continent and whatever be the level of training and pedigree of soldiers it is impossible to wage war here and get out scot free.

More than that it is the question of asking yourself if the risk is worth the gain. Superior forces, large economies and great standards of living can help you during war as also large petroleum reserves, it hardly makes you a winner.

From the Indian perpective, I can tell you apart from the regular trainings conducted for the Indian army there are a few which is unmatched in the world.

I ask the members here if they can provide similar/comparable training infrastructure to their respective armies be it the Untied States or the UK or Israel or Turkey as is given by the Indian army as follows:

a) Parvat Ghatak - Run by Tezpur based IV Corps - Indian Army's High Altitude Mountain Warfare School (Near Tawang - Arunacal Pradesh/ Altitude - 15,000 Feet

b) High Altitude Warfare School (HAWS) is located near Gulmarg, Jammu and Kashmir, estb 1949 

c) Counterinsurgency and Jungle Warfare School (Vairengte, Mizoram)

These institutes are just one of their respective kinds and have drawn the interest of western powers who regularly send requests to the GoI to let their soldiers trained in these institutions.

I am sure the Pakistani members can share the capabilities of the PA who are countering the IA at Siachen....which is just the highest battlefield in the world !!!

Siachen for western armies is just beyond imagination and recourse...

Today's war is more physical than ever before, and only the toughest and best can win.

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## gambit

vandemataram said:


> Well well, there is much more to war strategy than what you think. While being nationalistic or even to an extent over-nationalistic is good, but doe not make an army the best or the proverbial number 1 in the world.
> 
> No denying fact that UK is a developed country will high levels of industrialisation and standards of living, it becomes irrelevant while fighting and winning wars.
> 
> *Time has poved to the world the utter failure to "manage" things in Afghanistan and Iraq, by the NATO and allied forces which includes the largest number of British troops apart from American troops.*


Fine...Then we should update the list to:

1- Afghanistan
2- Iraq
...
...
...
10- United States

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## Kinshuk

gambit said:


> Fine...Then we should update the list to:
> 
> 1- Afghanistan
> 2- Iraq
> ...
> ...
> ...
> 10- United States



Yes Gamit Sir,

Totally agreed.


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## Luftwaffe

us
Russia
China
Britain
France
India
Israel
Turkey
Pakistan
Australia
---------------
Germany
Japan
South Korea

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## Kinshuk

luftwaffe said:


> us
> Russia
> China
> Britain
> France
> India
> Israel
> Turkey
> Pakistan
> Australia
> ---------------
> Germany
> Japan
> South Korea



No, you are wrong,

Its 1. Afgan

10. USA.

Even Gamit Sir agrees.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

USA=fire power + numbers
china=Med tech +more numbers
russia=only firepower
india= low tech + big army
Pakistan=medium tech + number
Turkey= fire power + number
E.U=small countries with high tech 
REST ARE ................................................................................


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## Zovc

IMO:

1.Pakistan
2.China
3.Turkey
4.France
5.UK
6.Russia
7.South Korea
8.Maldives
9.USA
10.India


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## Red Dwarf

Zovc said:


> IMO:
> 
> *1.Pakistan*
> 2.China
> 3.Turkey
> 4.France
> 5.UK
> 6.Russia
> *7.South Korea*
> *8.Maldives*
> 9.USA
> 10.India



The best analysis so far....


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## ek_indian

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> USA=fire power + numbers
> china=Med tech +more numbers
> russia=only firepower
> india= *low tech *+ big army
> Pakistan=medium tech + number
> Turkey= fire power + number
> E.U=small countries with high tech
> REST ARE ................................................................................



India having low tech even it is having all Russian/USA/Israeli systems (all good tech countries)...India has no fire power as well....

Someone has to remove his anti-India glasses.


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## Sino-PakFriendship

malaymishra123 said:


> My list will differ from the rest:
> 
> USA
> Russia
> UK
> France
> Germany(They have excellent land forces)
> Japan
> China
> Israel
> India
> Turkey
> South Korea
> 
> For those wondering why i did not include Pakistan, jingoism aside, i dont think Pakistan ranks in the top 10. Its airforce is completely outdated with only now limited number of new F-16's being added along with majority of JF-17. Only recently acquired BVR capability with the induction of F-16's. Navy is not really worth mentioning apart from 3 good subs. Army is by far the best, but is still stuck with old equipment by and large like India.
> 
> The only difference is India has started towards linking of their assets of the army and is heavily procuring new equipment for the modernization of its Army. PA is still not getting that from its govt.
> 
> This is my view, you are free to disagree.




obviously, China must suppress small Jap and UK, but still far behind Russia and USA.

(India also suppress small Jap and UK.)

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## JoshPaul

I am sorry but there is no way India is more powerful than the UK. The only thing they have on the UK is numbers while the UK suppasses them in the following feilds. The military budget is twice as much as India's, at 60 Billion and will rise to 80 Billion by the end of the year, after America the UK is the highest spender on Military Technology and Science. The soilders are the best trained in the world and they have the most advanced, tanks, helicopters, and ships. One of only two nations, the other being the US, which is currently buidling aircraft carriers THE HMS Qeen Elizabeth and the HMS Prince of Wales which will be two of the largest ships in the world. Their Navy and Airforce are the secon largest in NATO and their Ecconomy is larger than Indias. I have presented facts while you give none. The simple hard truth is the UK is more powerful than India. However India is a powerful nation and a beautiful one to.

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## JoshPaul

I have revised my list. 

1.USA
2. China
3. Russia
4. UK
5. France
6. Germany
7. Turkey
8. India
9. Brazil
10. Italy


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## Storm Force

i CANT BELIEVE THAT POST 

Pakistan meduim tech versis indian low tech. 

thats hillarious


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## TruthSeeker

The top ten:

(1) USCENTCOM
(2) USNORTHCOM
(3) USEUCOM
(4) USPACOM
(5) USAFRICACOM
(6) USSOUTHCOM
(7) China
(8) Russia
(9) UK
(10) France


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## JoshPaul

Storm forc. Were you talking to me? 

Truthseeker could you please explain to me what USEUCOM and all the others mean.

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## Cisco-GUY

What all of you failed to realize is that NATO is fighting a Gureilla warfare in AF, not a conventional military. So the element of surprise will always favor these rag-tag militia organization. They are not holding any ground and they don't have strategic infrastructure to be bombed. NATO effectiveness only depends upon Intel. I dont want to name them, but some intelligence agencies are also supporting taliban in an attempt to exhaust US resources and prolong WOT. 

In conventinal warfare , no one can challange US/NATO. I like jignostic remarks of some enlightened here failing to realize how same shawl wearing bearded mullahs have turned their country into a war zone. Like it or not, if you are laughing at US army performance in AF, you would have been weeping at yours.

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## DesiGuy

Cisco-GUY said:


> What all of you failed to realize is that NATO is fighting a Gureilla warfare in AF, not a conventional military. So the element of surprise will always favor these rag-tag militia organization. They are not holding any ground and they don't have strategic infrastructure to be bombed. NATO effectiveness only depends upon Intel. I dont want to name them, but some intelligence agencies are also supporting taliban in an attempt to exhaust US resources and prolong WOT.
> 
> In conventinal warfare , no one can challange US/NATO. I like jignostic remarks of some enlightened here failing to realize how same shawl wearing bearded mullahs have turned their country into a war zone.* Like it or not, if you are laughing at US army performance in AF, you would have been weeping at yours.*





man, love this sentence and 200% agree with it.

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## TaimiKhan

Cisco-GUY said:


> What all of you failed to realize is that NATO is fighting a Gureilla warfare in AF, not a conventional military. So the element of surprise will always favor these rag-tag militia organization. They are not holding any ground and they don't have strategic infrastructure to be bombed. NATO effectiveness only depends upon Intel. I dont want to name them, but some intelligence agencies are also supporting taliban in an attempt to exhaust US resources and prolong WOT.
> 
> In conventinal warfare , no one can challange US/NATO. I like jignostic remarks of some enlightened here failing to realize how same shawl wearing bearded mullahs have turned their country into a war zone. *Like it or not, if you are laughing at US army performance in AF, you would have been weeping at yours.*



You seriously need to do some head start research, but i guess such statements & the rest of the statement can be attributed to dumbs with no knowledge about current happenings and what is happening on the ground. 

Same to be said about the ones who thanked the idiotic post as their IQ level is no different then the .....................................

Before going on the rant, should have looked that what has the US/NATO alliance achieved in 8 years of this war, has the casualties gone down or up ?? 

What has this alliance achieved deep inside the Afghanistan territory. 

And yeah what about the Afghan puppet govt, resented by the Afghans, a govt supported by the alliance, what have they achieved so far except for more and more corruption and inefficiency. 

And am pretty sure, that the incompetency of the US/NATO alliance being blamed on one single intelligence agency of some country, the alliance is much much resourceful and equipped with state of the art intelligence network to defeat this one single 3rd world intelligence agency, so ask your alliance why haven't they done it so far.

instead of whining and ranting about your alliance failures on others, ask your govts and alliances that what have they achieved so far, except making sure no stone is left unearth to destabilize this country that you despise.


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## Spitfighter

Zovc said:


> IMO:
> 
> 1.Pakistan
> 2.China
> 3.Turkey
> 4.France
> 5.UK
> 6.Russia
> 7.South Korea
> 8.Maldives
> 9.USA
> 10.India



I think you're missing a couple, here, let me help you out 

1.Pakistan 
2.Pakistan
3.China
4.Turkey
5.France
6.UK
7.Russia
8.South Korea
9.Maldives 
10.Fiji 
11.Somalia 
12.Ethiopia
13.USA 
... 
... 

120. Indian super duper elite *'I eat US navy seals for breakfast'* squad...

*P.A.N.D.U *


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## rubyjackass

JoshPaul said:


> I am sorry but there is no way India is more powerful than the UK. The only thing they have on the UK is numbers while the UK suppasses them in the following feilds. The military budget is twice as much as India's, at 60 Billion and will rise to 80 Billion by the end of the year, after America the UK is the highest spender on Military Technology and Science. The soilders are the best trained in the world and they have the most advanced, tanks, helicopters, and ships. One of only two nations, the other being the US, which is currently buidling aircraft carriers THE HMS Qeen Elizabeth and the HMS Prince of Wales which will be two of the largest ships in the world. Their Navy and Airforce are the secon largest in NATO and their Ecconomy is larger than Indias. I have presented facts while you give none. The simple hard truth is the UK is more powerful than India. However India is a powerful nation and a beautiful one to.


It is true that UKs military budget is twice as that of India. But India pays 10(?) times less to its men in dollar terms. You seem to underestimate the difference sheer numbers can make. Look at the difference in numbers of each kind of aircraft for instance. 200 Su30 - 56 Typhoon Source: wiki


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## Cisco-GUY

taimikhan said:


> You seriously need to do some head start research, but i guess such statements & the rest of the statement can be attributed to dumbs with no knowledge about current happenings and what is happening on the ground.
> 
> Same to be said about the ones who thanked the idiotic post as their IQ level is no different then the .....................................
> 
> Before going on the rant, should have looked that what has the US/NATO alliance achieved in 8 years of this war, has the casualties gone down or up ??
> 
> What has this alliance achieved deep inside the Afghanistan territory.
> 
> And yeah what about the Afghan puppet govt, resented by the Afghans, a govt supported by the alliance, what have they achieved so far except for more and more corruption and inefficiency.
> 
> And am pretty sure, that the incompetency of the US/NATO alliance being blamed on one single intelligence agency of some country, the alliance is much much resourceful and equipped with state of the art intelligence network to defeat this one single 3rd world intelligence agency, so ask your alliance why haven't they done it so far.
> 
> instead of whining and ranting about your alliance failures on others, ask your govts and alliances that what have they achieved so far, except making sure no stone is left unearth to destabilize this country that you despise.



What NATO has achieved during past 8 years is not another terrorist attack on their soil. We have turned their world into turmoil and they are reduced to defensive posture instead of planning another terrorist attack on my country from their safe sanctuary. War is being fought in their heart instead of my homeland. We have preserved and protected freedom and security on our soil.

This period 8 years only signifies how deep rabbit hole goes and how big tumor it had formed due to this terrorism cancer.

We will not fail, we wont giveup, we will take these extremists on roller coaster ride straight to hell. So if some elements give up seeing them as strategic assets and cooperate with us for which they are being paid, i am sure this incompetency (as you call it) will soon disappear.


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## pak-yes

> It is true that UKs military budget is twice as that of India. But India pays 10(?) times less to its men in dollar terms. You seem to underestimate the difference sheer numbers can make. Look at the difference in numbers of each kind of aircraft for instance. 200 Su30 - 56 Typhoon Source: wiki



Although I don't like to say it but INDIA is much more powerful than UK in military terms.Uk is just a relic of the past.

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## amarnath

Top 10​ 

1
U.S.A.

2
China
3
Russia
4
India
5
U.K.
6
France
7
Germany
8
Brazil
9
Japan
10
Turkey
World Military Strength Comparison


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## JoshPaul

First of all if I came across like I was attacking India or Pakistan then I appologise as I really was not. I have not done as much reaserch on Pakistan but I love Indian culture and way of life. I beleive UK and France are more powerful than India for the same reasons. Advanced Tech, Higher Spending and my other reasons however if they would win a war in India is another thing all together. Indias sheer numbers would be hard to overcome and I am sure no Nation in NATO, including UK and France would go in alone. 

QED. France and UK>India but in a war who knows what would happen.


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## FreekiN

How the hell is Pakistan at 15?

Indonesia at 14 WTF?

*I looked into the statistics and found out that they actually decided ranking on 'population fit for military service.'*


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## UchihaCG

FreekiN said:


> How the hell is Pakistan at 15?
> 
> Indonesia at 14 WTF?
> 
> *I looked into the statistics and found out that they actually decided ranking on 'population fit for military service.'*



Wrong.
Germany France UK won't be on the list then.

There might be some other factors involving it too.... but globalfirepower is a well known and credible source.


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## TruthSeeker

JoshPaul said:


> Truthseeker could you please explain to me what USEUCOM and all the others mean.



The United States Army &#124; Organization

I was referring to the six command forces of the USA military. Essentially the world is divided into 6 regions and a supreme commander, with assigned responsibilities and resources, is in charge of USA military operations within that region. Of course my giving the USA 6 places in the top ten is meant to be humorous, but there is some truth in the idea that any of the 6 commands of the USA military is stronger than the next nation.

USNORTHCOM -- North America
USSOUTHCOM -- South America
USEUCOM -- Europe including Russia
USCENTCOM -- Most of the Middle East and up into all the 'stans
USAFRICACOM -- Africa except Egypt (in CENTCOM)
USPACOM -- East Asia and the Pacific including India and China

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## UchihaCG

---deleted----


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## gambit

TruthSeeker said:


> The United States Army | Organization
> 
> I was referring to the six command forces of the USA military. Essentially the world is divided into 6 regions and a supreme commander, with assigned responsibilities and resources, is in charge of USA military operations within that region. Of course my giving the USA 6 places in the top ten is meant to be humorous, but there is some truth in the idea that any of the 6 commands of the USA military is stronger than the next nation.
> 
> USNORTHCOM -- North America
> USSOUTHCOM -- South America
> USEUCOM -- Europe including Russia
> USCENTCOM -- Most of the Middle East and up into all the 'stans
> USAFRICACOM -- Africa except Egypt (in CENTCOM)
> USPACOM -- East Asia and the Pacific including India and China


USGLOBCOM -- Global Command
USSTRCOM -- Star System Command
USGALCOM -- Galactic Command

We are working on the universe. Ran into a snag, something called 'time'.


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## FreekiN

UchihaCG said:


> Wrong.
> Germany France UK won't be on the list then.
> 
> There might be some other factors involving it too.... but globalfirepower is a well known and credible source.



Pakistan has more of everything than Indonesia and several countries ranked ahead of it. Only difference is the population fit for service which has pakistan at 60 something million and indonesia at 100m plus


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## UchihaCG

FreekiN said:


> Pakistan has more of everything than Indonesia and several countries ranked ahead of it. Only difference is the population fit for service which has pakistan at 60 something million and indonesia at 100m plus



Well true; but we never know what they used for their basis in making this listing....... but it's not # of military though.... (as said, UK Germany, France hardly have numbers)


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## haawk

when will you guys stop this childish game of rating miltary strengths ? military strength is a combination

1)technology
2)economy to sustain a war.
3)fuel reserves
4)no.of personell
5)the caliber of training given to personel
6)motivation of the personel.
7)support of your strategic partners
8)assurance of military supplies from your equipment providing nations-(you cant expect to produce all the weapons yourself during war...you have to buy since local production may not be enough ) 
8)friendly nations that would deter other powerful nation from joining with your enemy(eg. USSR that detered USA from coming to help pakistan in 71')however this kind of friendship will only depend on the strength of your relationship with your friendly nation.


since true strength will depend on all these parameters estimating the order of military strength with a few paremeters will always be faulty.......some can argue that the strategic partners cannot be includer -but they tend to be a game changer in war.......eg-entry of the US in the world wars at later stages turned the tables completely for the allied nations!
so its actually childish to go on with type of ratings over and over again,please stop this thread -which probably would be the n'th thread with the same title

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## haawk

when will you guys stop this childish game of rating miltary strengths ? military strength is a combination

1)technology
2)economy to sustain a war.
3)fuel reserves
4)no.of personell
5)the caliber of training given to personel
6)motivation of the personel.
7)support of your strategic partners
8)assurance of military supplies from your equipment providing nations-(you cant expect to produce all the weapons yourself during war...you have to buy since local production may not be enough ) 
8)friendly nations that would deter other powerful nation from joining with your enemy(eg. USSR that detered USA from coming to help pakistan in 71')however this kind of friendship will only depend on the strength of your relationship with your friendly nation.


since true strength will depend on all these parameters estimating the order of military strength with a few paremeters will always be faulty.......some can argue that the strategic partners cannot be includer -but they tend to be a game changer in war.......eg-entry of the US in the world wars at later stages turned the tables completely for the allied nations!
so its actually childish to go on with type of ratings over and over again,please stop this thread -which probably would be the n'th thread with the same title


----------



## Iggy

taimikhan said:


> You seriously need to do some head start research, but i guess such statements & the rest of the statement can be attributed to dumbs with no knowledge about current happenings and what is happening on the ground.
> 
> Same to be said about the ones who thanked the idiotic post as their IQ level is no different then the .....................................
> 
> Before going on the rant, should have looked that what has the US/NATO alliance achieved in 8 years of this war, has the casualties gone down or up ??
> 
> What has this alliance achieved deep inside the Afghanistan territory.
> 
> And yeah what about the Afghan puppet govt, resented by the Afghans, a govt supported by the alliance, what have they achieved so far except for more and more corruption and inefficiency.
> 
> And am pretty sure, that the incompetency of the US/NATO alliance being blamed on one single intelligence agency of some country, the alliance is much much resourceful and equipped with state of the art intelligence network to defeat this one single 3rd world intelligence agency, so ask your alliance why haven't they done it so far.
> 
> instead of whining and ranting about your alliance failures on others, ask your govts and alliances that what have they achieved so far, except making sure no stone is left unearth to destabilize this country that you despise.




Since i thanked him I will explain why i agree with the statement he made..first of all there is no doubt that no army can match US in a conventional warfare..They were the trend setter in military technology and futuristic warfare..we all just shamelessly follow it..Just look at how they implement RMA in warfares..if you look at the conventional warfare US fought you can see there death toll seems to decreasing..[I am not saying about the attacks after they defeated Iraq or Afghanistan] ...Every army has learning from what US did in Iraq and Afghan war..As for India we are introducing network centric warfare currently after how US sucessfully did it in Iraq and Afgan war...


I am not commenting about Pakistan military because i dont have much knowledge about it..but as for Indian army just look at the current situations of common soldiers?how much protection are we given to them compare with US soldiers?Many of the soldiers dont even have a knee pad to protect his knees...I am sure that our soldiers courage are second to none ..but courage cannot stop bullets

And as for what US and Nato has achived, I totally agreed with Cisco guy about his statements that it helped considering the facts that bases of operations of Al-Queda has severly hit and they are on the run..Just look at how many bombings they had done ranging from US to African nations before the US attack on Afghan and now look at the situation...The bombings had significant shortfall ..

Hope you get my point


----------



## vandemataram

Cisco-GUY said:


> What all of you failed to realize is that NATO is fighting a Gureilla warfare in AF, not a conventional military. So the element of surprise will always favor these rag-tag militia organization. They are not holding any ground and they don't have strategic infrastructure to be bombed. NATO effectiveness only depends upon Intel. I dont want to name them, but some intelligence agencies are also supporting taliban in an attempt to exhaust US resources and prolong WOT.
> 
> In conventinal warfare , no one can challange US/NATO. I like jignostic remarks of some enlightened here failing to realize how same shawl wearing bearded mullahs have turned their country into a war zone. Like it or not, if you are laughing at US army performance in AF, you would have been weeping at yours.



Well, there is no mandate that war needs to be conventional....

Conventional, Nuclear, Chemical, Biological everything is a threat...the rag tag guerillas are more than enough to outsmart the NATO forces and that is what is happening in Afghanistan...

I suggest, with all humility, please look up for the following on the internet...

You shall understand the limitations of Her Majesty's forces....

a) Counter Insurgency and Jungle Warfare School
b) Parvat Ghatak
c) High Altitude Warfare School....

I am not talking about who is the best or anything of that sort but would like to remind you that the war today can be fought anywhere...riverines, swamps, jungles, marshes, heights of 20,000 feet and upwards....

I doubt and hope that the members here can second my thought that the kind of training imparted in the above mentioned schools aren't a kid's job...

I assure you on that..you should know how western militaries send their troops to be trained at the institutions, particularly the CIJWS and Parvat Ghatak....

Thank you..


----------



## TaimiKhan

seiko said:


> Since i thanked him I will explain why i agree with the statement he made..first of all there is no doubt that no army can match US in a conventional warfare..They were the trend setter in military technology and futuristic warfare..we all just shamelessly follow it..Just look at how they implement RMA in warfares..if you look at the conventional warfare US fought you can see there death toll seems to decreasing..[I am not saying about the attacks after they defeated Iraq or Afghanistan] ...Every army has learning from what US did in Iraq and Afghan war..As for India we are introducing network centric warfare currently after how US sucessfully did it in Iraq and Afgan war...
> 
> I am not commenting about Pakistan military because i dont have much knowledge about it..but as for Indian army just look at the current situations of common soldiers?how much protection are we given to them compare with US soldiers?Many of the soldiers dont even have a knee pad to protect his knees...I am sure that our soldiers courage are second to none ..but courage cannot stop bullets
> 
> And as for what US and Nato has achived, I totally agreed with Cisco guy about his statements that it helped considering the facts that bases of operations of Al-Queda has severly hit and they are on the run..Just look at how many bombings they had done ranging from US to African nations before the US attack on Afghan and now look at the situation...The bombings had significant shortfall ..
> 
> Hope you get my point



Thanks for your clarification, but its just to defend your own view point, the rest of the view point described in that thanked post was pathetic. 

A thank means to the whole post, not a part of it. 

And US has not yet faced an adversary of its own size, the day they do then we will know how much superior they are. 

And knee & elbow pads are not as important as other personal equipment. Armies have fought without them for centuries and delivered. 

And the hi-tech equipment the US armed personnel have, no doubt no one else has, but with such equipment their performance has been very very unsatisfactory in the last 8 years. 

Anyway, leave it as this is out of topic.

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## JoshPaul

Would someone please explain why they put India over the UK? UK have far more advanced technology, higher ecconomy, higher spending, best trained men(Though this does not mean Indians are not well trained). I could understand if it were just Numbers and I hope we never go to war as I am unsure if we would win.


----------



## Iggy

JoshPaul said:


> Would someone please explain why they put India over the UK? UK have far more advanced technology, higher ecconomy, higher spending, best trained men(Though this does not mean Indians are not well trained). I could understand if it were just Numbers and I hope we never go to war as I am unsure if we would win.



ok UK ahead of India happy??Chill mate its peoples personal choice na..some guy even put maldives ahead of India ;-) dont worry..rating dont count in battle field

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## JoshPaul

I know I saw that. I was just wondering why people put them ahead that was all. I love India though and am moving there latter this year.


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## Sino-PakFriendship

JoshPaul said:


> I have revised my list.
> 
> 1.USA
> 2. China
> 3. Russia
> 4. UK
> 5. France
> 6. Germany
> 7. Turkey
> 8. India
> 9. Brazil
> 10. Italy



With Nuclear bombs, Big 5 are always Big 5

But without Nuclear bombs, 

USA > Russia >> China > India > France > UK ~ Germany ~ Japan ~ South Korea > Brazil > Pakistan > Turkey


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## JoshPaul

I totally disagree. UK are far stronger than India. Have a larger Navy and Airforce than France and without Nukes Turkey is more powerful than Pakistan.


----------



## faithfulguy

JoshPaul said:


> I totally disagree. UK are far stronger than India. Have a larger Navy and Airforce than France and without Nukes Turkey is more powerful than Pakistan.



In term of raw power, we need also to look at size instead of just technology. UK, France and Germany definitely is more advance than India. Even if a war if fought in Indian Ocean, I would bet that these European countries can beat India in a air or naval war. However, none of these countries can invade India as its much bigger.


----------



## JoshPaul

I agree. However India could not invade UK and France due to their naval power. I am not so sure about Germany. Though India can not project their power to Europe while the UK have the second highest Power Projection after the USA.


----------



## JoshPaul

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> With Nuclear bombs, Big 5 are always Big 5
> 
> But without Nuclear bombs,
> 
> USA > Russia >> China > India > France > UK ~ Germany ~ Japan ~ South Korea > Brazil > Pakistan > Turkey



And why do you think India are more powerful than UK? Uk has everything better and richer. Plus a larger Navy and Airforce than France.


----------



## Sino-PakFriendship

JoshPaul said:


> And why do you think India are more powerful than UK? Uk has everything better and richer. Plus a larger Navy and Airforce than France.










http://img1.gtimg.com/news/pics/26497/26497914.jpg


----------



## Iggy

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> http://img1.gtimg.com/news/pics/26497/26497914.jpg



????? what it has to do with military power rankings?


----------



## Sino-PakFriendship

seiko said:


> ????? what it has to do with military power rankings?



Britain is falling!

Britain can win over Argentina, but no way over China or India!

Briton must face reality!

Please see how amny death toll of UK Army in Iraq and Afghanistan!

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## Ron S

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> With Nuclear bombs, Big 5 are always Big 5
> 
> But without Nuclear bombs,
> 
> USA > Russia >> China > India > France > UK ~ Germany ~ Japan ~ South Korea > Brazil > Pakistan > Turkey



you couldn't ignore israel that rumored to have nuclear bombs, the german military is quite small, i would have put both pakistan and is israel ahead of germany, even by far.


----------



## JoshPaul

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> Britain is falling!
> 
> Britain can win over Argentina, but no way over China or India!
> 
> Briton must face reality!
> 
> Please see how amny death toll of UK Army in Iraq and Afghanistan!




176 I am not 100&#37;. However India are not as powerful as the UK how can you come to that conclusion. All India have over UK is numbers and nothing else. UK spend more on defence, Higher Economy, More Advanced Ships, Planes and Tanks, Second Highest spender on Military Tech after USA, One of only two nations building Aircraft Cariers, Best trained men in the world, Blue Water Navy. UK would win in a war vs India but not China, well not without NATO assistance.


----------



## Iggy

JoshPaul said:


> 200 I am not 100%. However India are not as powerful as the UK how can you come to that conclusion. All India have over UK is numbers and nothing else. UK spend more on defence, Higher Economy, More Advanced Ships, Planes and Tanks, Second Highest spender on Military Tech after USA, *One of only two nations building Aircraft Cariers*, Best trained men in the world, Blue Water Navy. UK would win in a war vs India but not China, well not without NATO assistance.



Actually we are building one too ..but not that big as urs and also France and Italy also have indigenous carriers along with Russia


----------



## JoshPaul

seiko said:


> Actually we are building one too ..but not that big as urs and also France and Italy also have indigenous carriers along with Russia



I never knew that, but let's not start shouting about who's is larger. I know Russia will have another by 2018, once again smaller than UK'S. What is your top ten list?


----------



## Iggy

JoshPaul said:


> I never knew that, but let's not start shouting about who's is larger. I know Russia will have another by 2018, once again smaller than UK'S. What is your top ten list?



AL-Queda
Taliban
Lasker-E-Toiba
TTP
HUM
Jud
Iran
NK
Cuba
Zimbawe

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## JoshPaul

What about Peru?


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## Iggy

JoshPaul said:


> What about Peru?



Not that strong to reach top ten


----------



## JoshPaul

Pfft? They could destroy America. 
What is your top ten nations?


----------



## Sino-PakFriendship

JoshPaul said:


> 176 I am not 100&#37;. However India are not as powerful as the UK how can you come to that conclusion. All India have over UK is numbers and nothing else. UK spend more on defence, Higher Economy, More Advanced Ships, Planes and Tanks, Second Highest spender on Military Tech after USA, One of only two nations building Aircraft Cariers, Best trained men in the world, Blue Water Navy. UK would win in a war vs India but not China, well not without NATO assistance.




Britain is falling, this is a fact!

Small Jap is Higher in technology than you! If she produces nuclear bombs, she can do it very soon. But Small Jap is no way to compare with China.

However, Jap still suppresses you UK if they produce nuclear bombs.


There are only 4 powers in the World

Superpower : USA

Sub-Superpower : Russia

Rising powers : China, India


----------



## Novice09

JoshPaul said:


> 176 I am not 100%. However India are not as powerful as the UK how can you come to that conclusion. All India have over UK is numbers and nothing else. UK spend more on defence, Higher Economy, More Advanced Ships, Planes and Tanks, Second Highest spender on Military Tech after USA, One of only two nations building Aircraft Cariers, Best trained men in the world, Blue Water Navy. UK would win in a war vs India but not China, well not without NATO assistance.



UK would win in a war vs India....

any other joke ??? have you won in Afghanistan


----------



## JoshPaul

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> Britain is falling, this is a fact!
> 
> Small Jap is Higher in technology than you! If she produces nuclear bombs, she can do it very soon. But Small Jap is no way to compare with China.
> 
> However, Jap still suppresses you UK if they produce nuclear bombs.
> 
> 
> There are only 4 powers in the World
> 
> Superpower : USA
> 
> Sub-Superpower : Russia
> 
> Rising powers : China, India



Well that is a load of Rubbish. Japan have the most advanced tech but not military tech which goes to the USA whom we by off and they by of off us.


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## Sino-PakFriendship

Both India and Briton enjoy mental masturbation!

However, I show more respect for Indian than Briton.

India is actually powerful than Small England!

UK will lose your affect over the World.

Without Premierships and Wimbledon Championships, UK has nothing to be proud of!


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## JoshPaul

Novice09 said:


> UK would win in a war vs India....
> 
> any other joke ??? have you won in Afghanistan



Neither have America, but would you win against them. India have nothing but Numbers over the UK.


----------



## JoshPaul

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> Both India and Briton enjoy mental masturbation!
> 
> However, I show more respect for Indian than Briton.
> 
> India is actually powerful than Small England!
> 
> UK will lose your affect over the World.
> 
> Without Premierships and Wimbledon Championships, UK has nothing to be proud of!



So all the fact that I have out down meen nothing? What does India have over UK?


----------



## Sino-PakFriendship

JoshPaul said:


> Well that is a load of Rubbish. Japan have the most advanced tech but not military tech which goes to the USA whom we by off and they by of off us.



Small Jap is a rivalry of China.

I don't like her!

However, Jap is more creative than USA and UK.


Have you read a book End of Empire?

UK falling is destined!


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## JoshPaul

You have not answered my question?


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## Novice09

JoshPaul said:


> I never knew that, but let's not start shouting about who's is larger. I know Russia will have another by 2018, once again smaller than UK'S. What is your top ten list?



Josh, you can see that no one is questioning  supremacy (except 1). Hence, feel free to put UK at any podium you want 

for me any member's top ten really doesn't matter but it make the thread interesting.


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## JoshPaul

You have not answered my question? How is India more powerful than UK?


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## Novice09

JoshPaul said:


> So all the fact that I have out down meen nothing? What does India have over UK?



Sorry for jumping in

I think you have already answered your question....

*NUMBER*


----------



## JoshPaul

How I asked a question?


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## Novice09

JoshPaul said:


> Neither have America, but would you win against them. India have nothing but Numbers over the UK.



*Neither have America*
Not just AMERICA.... nobody

Why should we fight against Afghans?


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## Novice09

JoshPaul said:


> How I asked a question?



*What does India have over UK?*


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## JoshPaul

I just want to know why you think India are more powerful than UK?


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## Sino-PakFriendship

JoshPaul said:


> You have not answered my question? How is India more powerful than UK?



Chinese has one sentence &#29392;&#20551;&#34382;&#23041; (a fox flaunting in the tuition of a tiger)

It means "The a-s-s in the lion's skin"

UK = a-s-s

USA = lion

Because USA is super-strong, so the World respect her minion UK.

In fact, UK is incompetent!


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## JoshPaul

Still you can not answer my question can you?


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## Novice09

JoshPaul said:


> I just want to know why you think India are more powerful than UK?



Being a military power is just an upper hand in a war. It is not decisive. Did I ever say that India is more powerful than UK  I just answered your following quote:



JoshPaul said:


> 176 I am not 100&#37;. However India are not as powerful as the UK how can you come to that conclusion. All India have over UK is numbers and nothing else. UK spend more on defence, Higher Economy, More Advanced Ships, Planes and Tanks, Second Highest spender on Military Tech after USA, One of only two nations building Aircraft Cariers, Best trained men in the world, Blue Water Navy. *UK would win in a war vs India* but not China, well not without NATO assistance.



US is at top, still they have faced defeat in Vietnam and currently Afghan fiasco.


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## JoshPaul

I was talking to Sino-Pak


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## Sino-PakFriendship

JoshPaul said:


> I was talking to Sino-Pak



Without USA, UK is nothing!


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## Novice09

JoshPaul said:


> I was talking to Sino-Pak



But I think it was about India  . If not, sorry for interruption


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## JoshPaul

Explain. 4th Highest Defense Spender, Nuclear Weapons, Top Ten Ecconomy, Largest Navy and Airforce in NATO, Leading member of the EU, Second highest military power projection, Blue Water Navy, Royla Marines have the longest training in the world, SAS regarded as the best Special Force in the world,


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## Sino-PakFriendship

JoshPaul said:


> Explain. 4th Highest Defense Spender, Nuclear Weapons, Top Ten Ecconomy, Largest Navy and Airforce in NATO, Leading member of the EU, Second highest military power projection, Blue Water Navy, Royla Marines have the longest training in the world, SAS regarded as the best Special Force in the world,



But still high death toll in Iraq / Afghanistan!!!

It seems that UK still wants to reassert your hegemony over the World now. But not succeeds!


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## JoshPaul

176 is not a high death toll compared to other wars. I do not argue that China is far more powerful than UK but India is not.


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## Spitfighter

JoshPaul said:


> 176 is not a high death toll compared to other wars. I do not argue that *China is far more powerful than UK but India is not.*



Given its size I believe the Indian military will have some initial success, but the UK can actually sustain war for a lot longer than India can given its industrial capacity, economy and technological prowess. They'll win hands down.

China is certainly stronger than the UK but it's not going to be a cakewalk. The UK has some of the best trained soldiers on the planet, cutting edge technology and most importantly *experience*. England has trained for NBC combat in Europe for *decades* during the cold war. China might win, but it'll be one hell of a fight. They won't come out of it unscathed, I'm inclined to believe that they'll be pushed back at least a few years.

The UK doesn't get enough credit, they aren't the power they used to be, but they're certainly still a force to be reckoned with in their own right. I believe the UK has the strongest military in Europe does it not?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## JoshPaul

I have one thing to say about Global Firepower it is a great site and I love to look over it but it has a few things wrong. For example it says uk have no Parlimentaries when they have over one thousands and with the reserves britain have over 500,000 soilders. They also have 3, not 2 as it say's, aircraft carriers HMS Invincible, HMS Illustrious and HMS Ark Royal. With two in development. The UK also has a larger budget than stated. So take it with a pinch of salt.


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## asim.mian10

Its mainly base on troops strength-remeber pak nation have millions of mujhid


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## JoshPaul

Could you tell me what Mujhid are?


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## Enigma SIG

asim.mian10 said:


> Its mainly base on troops strength-remeber pak nation have millions of mujhid



yup; we have lots of mujahids who are kicking our ***** in FATA


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## Sino-PakFriendship

I hate India, but I must admit India should be in big 4 after USA, Russia then China.


Briton dude and French toast are falling.

This is reality!


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## Sino-PakFriendship

China has no Aircraft Carriers now, but still suppress Briton dude.









British so-called military tech. fall behind small Jap and K-dog. 

Without USA, UK is nothing.


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## JoshPaul

Ok you produce no proof, just stick too your stupid pic.


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## Naradmuni

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> China has no Aircraft Carriers now, but still suppress Briton dude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> British so-called military tech. fall behind small Jap and K-dog.
> 
> Without USA, UK is nothing.



I did not get it. Whats it about?


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## Naradmuni

@ Josh

All the Tech and stuff with GB now is out of the Imperialstic loot that Britain did in past century. 

And this is not the 18th century. The sooner Europe realises this, the better.


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## remarker

asim.mian10 said:


> Its mainly base on troops strength-remeber pak nation have millions of mujhid





that word want to listen from ur big mouth Pakistan is supporting terrorism not fighting against terror 

now you what you will say


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## macrocks

> You have not answered my question? How is India more powerful than UK?



India has one of the best trained soldiers and officiers in the world. India is battle hardened. Tell me the last time when britain fought on it's own against a strong enemy. Don't count falkland as Argen. was too weak with it's Israeli jets lacking the ful capacity to attack the island without going in a straight line. Indian gunners fired their artilary in direct mode at kargil. That was the first incident after WW 2 that any military gunners fired in direct mode. The UK soldiers depend on air cover. If the enemy is positioned at 40 meter away either they will surrendur or call artillary/Air strikes. Indians will fit bayonet to their guns and attack the enemy positions. The Indian special forces regularly go on field to destroy enemy, the british policy is avoid if you can. The economy is in deep sh!t and the number of girls aged 14 and pregnant increasing too rapidly. Won't be completely out of recession until 12'. The carriers being made are proving too costly. Nothing without US and Nato. Even russia can decimate them even now.


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## freethinker

Israel is a pretty small country with a low number of serving troops. While they have a respectable force with well trained and well equipped soldiers they simply don't have the manpower or funds to be counted as a real force even with US support. Israels ability to wage a successful long-term foreign campaign is also suspect. 
Man for man, Israel is certainely a top power but i rank them lower than most here in terms of military power on a global scale.


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## Frankenstein

Astra said:


> 1. That was not for Canada, it was for Pakistan.
> 2. 25% of defence budget in Pakistan comes from the US.
> 
> Do you want me to prove this? I can give you many authentic links. But, I suggest you do some internet search.


*More then 50 % of defense budget in Israel comes from the US. What do you think about that, so will you consider it as a failed state?? *


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## rakesh_sabrah

Self Deleted


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## mjnaushad

You really need to know about Air wars pakistan fought. I dont want to call high class members like Sir Murad for a newbie like you.


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## rakesh_sabrah

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> I hate India, but I must admit India should be in big 4 after USA, Russia then China.




Why any Indian Kicked your Bump ?? Or else You dont have other things to hate or what..??? I dont Hate Any country, i hate people like you and their mentality ....


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## rakesh_sabrah

mjnaushad said:


> You really need to know about Air wars pakistan fought. I dont want to call high class members like Sir Murad for a newbie like you.



I am very well aware abt the positions of Pilotes and army/navy/airforce in all over the world. Because I belongs to the same domain and and my family is with IAF/Indian Navy background. Only one or two pilots doesnt make the AIRFORCE of any country...if you ask i will give you so many names of pilots from each and every airforce but that doent make all the airforce one of the best airforce piolts in the world....It depends upon the skill, Trainning, Kill superiority and many more factors .....Only one man from PAF doesnt prove the Excellence in the airpower .....


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## mjnaushad

JoshPaul said:


> Could you tell me what Mujhid are?


Mujahid is guy who fight for Allah in good way. We usually call our Soldiers Mujahid. but that indian taking it as Terrorists. well its his mentality.


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## TaimiKhan

rakesh_sabrah said:


> I am very well aware abt the positions of Pilotes and army/navy/airforce in all over the world. Because I belongs to the same domain and and my family is with IAF/Indian Navy background. Only one or two pilots doesnt make the AIRFORCE of any country...if you ask i will give you so many names of pilots from each and every airforce but that doent make all the airforce one of the best airforce piolts in the world....It depends upon the skill, Trainning, Kill superiority and many more factors .....Only one man from PAF doesnt prove the Excellence in the airpower .....



If you want to stay on the forum, would be better you refrain from trolling.


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## mjnaushad

rakesh_sabrah said:


> I am very well aware abt the positions of Pilotes and army/navy/airforce in all over the world. Because I belongs to the same domain and and my family is with IAF/Indian Navy background. Only one or two pilots doesnt make the AIRFORCE of any country...if you ask i will give you so many names of pilots from each and every airforce but that doent make all the airforce one of the best airforce piolts in the world....It depends upon the skill, Trainning, Kill superiority and many more factors .....Only one man from PAF doesnt prove the Excellence in the airpower .....


All pilots of a country goes through same training. so if one can do it means every other pilot got the same skill hidden inside him. And for us its one Name to prove Pakistan air superiority. ITS PAF.


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## Frankenstein

rakesh_sabrah said:


> I am very well aware abt the positions of Pilotes and army/navy/airforce in all over the world. Because I belongs to the same domain and and my family is with IAF/Indian Navy background. Only one or two pilots doesnt make the AIRFORCE of any country...if you ask i will give you so many names of pilots from each and every airforce but that doent make all the airforce one of the best airforce piolts in the world....It depends upon the skill, Trainning, Kill superiority and many more factors .....Only one man from PAF doesnt prove the Excellence in the airpower .....



PAF ratio of shooting down planes are 3:1 which makes it one of the best Airforce, my friendly request is, try to post some useful things not BS!!

KIT OUT


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## LCA Tejas

*IAF ----
*​








*Indian Army*
​
*Indian Navy​*


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## manglasiva

Self delete.......


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## HAWK73

1. USA
2. Israel
3. Russia
4. China
5. Pakistan
6. Iran
7. UK
8. Germany
9. Korea
10. Egypt


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## HAWK73

rakesh_sabrah said:


> Why any Indian Kicked your Bump ?? Or else You dont have other things to hate or what..??? I dont Hate Any country, i hate people like you and their mentality ....



Sooner or later you may say that, you hate yourself too.


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## xebex

HAWK73 said:


> 1. USA
> 2. Israel
> 3. Russia
> 4. China
> 5. Pakistan
> 6. Iran
> 7. UK
> 8. Germany
> 9. Korea
> 10. Egypt



why not Somalia and Uganda in that list.

post a list that make sense!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## desiman

xebex said:


> why not Somalia and Uganda in that list.
> 
> post a list that make sense!!!



     uganda lol


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## LCA Tejas

xebex said:


> why not Somalia and Uganda in that list.
> 
> post a list that make sense!!!



hahahaha


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## A$HU

HAWK73 said:


> 1. USA
> 2. Israel
> 3. Russia
> 4. China
> 5. Pakistan
> 6. Iran
> 7. UK
> 8. Germany
> 9. Korea
> 10. Egypt


By your standard the list seems to be more or less fine.


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## Trichy

LCA Tejas said:


> hahahaha



very clever boy

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## gambit

Since many here are so gullible, who is *PERCEIVED* to in the 'Top 10' list should be the ones with the most garish military parades, which would put US out of the contention, which is fine with US.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Ingis




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## aleemapple

Goodperson said:


> This camparison makes no sense its just for debate.


 
worldtop10.in


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## Knight_84

I think North Korea is more powerful than South korea and also Saudi Arabia is one of the top arms importer in the world so it also deserves a place in the top ten list excluding Turkey. Anyways i think your view is quite liberal.


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## Killswitch

This is way to hard to call. There is no real way of knowing for sure. Just speculation really.


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## Hello_10

Killswitch said:


> This is way to hard to call. There is no real way of knowing for sure. Just speculation really.


 
Defense analysts widely accept military strength ranking as below

Global Firepower - 2011 World Military Strength Ranking


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