# T-84 oplot M fails testing what now for the army, in terms of tanks?



## kaonalpha

The oplot M has been considerd over the MBT 3000. It is official that Pakistan will not pursue the MB-3000

Certain change will be made.Allow me to further explain. The Ukrainians have offered the tank a standard version.

Our demand






Or






Plus Demand of local manufacturing of spare parts.






When I say local yes I say with confidance that we have demanded that 60% of the components be made in Pakistan.

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## WaLeEdK2

So Pakistan army has stated this? Any link?

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## Spectre

kaonalpha said:


> View attachment 236795
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> 
> 
> View attachment 236796
> View attachment 236797
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> 
> The oplot M has been considerd over the MBT 3000. It is official that Pakistan will not pursue the MB-3000
> 
> Certain change will be made.Allow me to further explain. The Ukrainians have offered the tank a standard version.
> 
> Our demand



Any specific reasons for choosing oplot M over MBT 3000? is it the ToT and offset?

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## kaonalpha

Zarvan

https://defence.pk/members/horus.15719/

care to comment oh zarvan tag dazzler


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## WaLeEdK2

kaonalpha said:


> View attachment 236795
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 236796
> View attachment 236797
> 
> 
> The oplot M has been considerd over the MBT 3000. It is official that Pakistan will not pursue the MB-3000
> 
> Certain change will be made.Allow me to further explain. The Ukrainians have offered the tank a standard version.
> 
> Our demand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus Demand of local manufacturing of spare parts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I say local yes I say with confidance that we have demanded that 60% of the components be made in Pakistan.

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## IrbiS

@Dazzler @TankMan

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## kaonalpha

WaLeEdK2 said:


> So Pakistan army has stated this? Any link?


You expect a link this early. Please the reason I uploaded the above picss are because they have overcome the trials In Bhawalpur. The MBT-3000 failed. Plus order from above not to encourage chinese at all.

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## WaLeEdK2

kaonalpha said:


> You expect a link this early. Please the reason I uploaded the above picss are because they have overcome the trials In Bhawalpur. The MBT-3000 failed. Plus order from above not to encourage chinese at all.


I see well this tank looks like a beast

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## pak avatar

Isnt this classified info or top secret?


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## Sulman Badshah

Oplot M had got a upper hand against MBT3000 ... it is a better choice

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## waz

Looks great, it's still being evaluated though right?
I feel we are better off going with the Turks and Altay, which is turning out to be a beast.

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## RedRock

kaonalpha said:


> You expect a link this early. Please the reason I uploaded the above picss are because they have overcome the trials In Bhawalpur. The MBT-3000 failed. Plus order from above not to encourage chinese at all.


I don't get what you mean by "not encourage the Chinese"..meaning...letting them know that the MBT-3000 will no longer be considered?
and which engine r we looking at, the 1200hp or 1500hp?

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## VelocuR

Nonsense, bullshit.

Hope Pakistan should *NOT* go ahead with Ukraine's junks, so better stick with China or Turkey's Altay.

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## RedRock

kaonalpha said:


> View attachment 236795
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 236796
> View attachment 236797
> 
> 
> The oplot M has been considerd over the MBT 3000. It is official that Pakistan will not pursue the MB-3000
> 
> Certain change will be made.Allow me to further explain. The Ukrainians have offered the tank a standard version.


Also...what do the Russians think about this? Why do i have a feeling this news is meant to confuse other countries about what we are going to induct.

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## kaonalpha

RedRock said:


> I don't get what you mean by "not encourage the Chinese"..meaning...letting them know that the MBT-3000 will no longer be considered?
> and which engine r we looking at, the 1200hp or 1500hp?


As we are no longer going to take chinses tanks. Because of certain kickback issues.
1500 hp

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## Sage




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## Blue Marlin

it will not materialise because Ukraine is in turmoil. if Pakistan does like the t84 they can add various components on to the mbt-3000 to make it to their standard.

the mbt 3000 will come with a lower unit price guaranteed delivery. [Ukraine is in trouble it may decide not to send the tanks and use them for it's self in possible desperation] if the t84 comes with a TOT then go for it and don't look back. 

also the pictures in the thread don't mean anything it just shows a pakistani checking the t84, just how pakistan was checking the t129 helicopter. don't count on it. money is a factor, it always is.

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## Sulman Badshah

The BM Oplot main battle tank is a tracked fighting vehicle that features a high firepower, reliable protection and high mobility.

The tank is intended to destroy all types of ground (floating) and low-flying low-speed ait targets under the conditions when the enemy fires back.

The vehicle can fulfil a wide range of combat missions under various climatic, weather and terrain conditions in the ambient temperature range of -40 to +55 degrees Centigrade, air humidity of up to 98% at temperature of +25 degrees Centigrade, height above sea level of up to 3000 m and with ambient air dust content available in real terrain conditions.

The key component parts of the tank that determine its capabilities are as follows:

FIREPOWER:


Armament:
tank gun
coaxial machine gun
remote-controlled anti-aircraft machine gun system

Loading system:
conveyor
automatic loader
control system

Integrated gun-and-fire control system:
sighting systems:
gunner’s day sight
gunner’s thermal sight
commander’s panoramic sighting system

main armament stabiliser
guided weapon system
tank ballistic computer
input sensors of tank ballistic computer
muzzle reference system
anti-aircraft machine gun control system

*Oplot Main Battle Tank*








PROTECTION:


Ballistic protection:
main passive armour protection
built-in anti-tandem-warhead explosive reactive armour
anti-mine protection

Special defensive aids:
optronic countermeasures system:
optronic suppression station
aerosol screen laying system

collective crew protection system:
NBC protection system
fire/explosion suppression system

signature reduction aids:
dazzle painting
natural camouflage fixing devices
thermal insulation
engine smoke generator
set of camouflage nets


Self-entrenching device
Mine clearing system attachments (attachments available on the vehicle hull and intended for installation of any type of track-width mine clearing system)




MOBILITY:


Power pack:
engine
engine operation support systems:
fuel supply system
air supply system
lubrication system
cooling system
engine exhaust gas outlet system
engine pre-heating and crew compartment heating system
engine start system







Multiple reverse speed transmission:
gearboxes
multiple reverse speed final drives

Complex movement control system
Running gear:
track system
cushioning system

Deep water fording equipment
The tank is also fitted with the following:
Observation and orientation devices
day vision devices
driver’s night vision device
orientation device (directional gyro)
hydro-pneumatic system for cleaning the vision devices of the hull and turret

Satellite navigation support system
Communications devices
VHF radio set
commander’s HF radio set
crew intercom system


Auxiliary power unit
Vehicle’s electrical system
Driver’s digital instrumentation panel
Air conditioning system (optional)

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## RAMPAGE

@kaonalpha

Is Zaslon APS included in the package?

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## Sulman Badshah

ARMAMENT

Tank gun

Model
KBA-3
Calibre
125 mm
Breech type
horizontal wedge-type, semi-automatic
Elevation/depression angles (up to rigid stops).
from -4 to +15 degrees
Horizontal aiming (together with the tank turret)
360 degrees
Dispersion:

elevation
0.2 mrad (APFSDS, HEAT, R=2000 m)

azimuth
0.2 mrad (APFSDS, HEAT, R=2000 m)
Coaxial machine gun

Model
*KT-7.62 (PKT) with removing powder gas*
Calibre
7.62 mm
Technical rate of fire
700-800 rpm
Anti-aircraft machine gun system


Type
autonomous
Control
remote
Control modes 1) automatic
2) stabilised in vertical plane
Armament model
KT-12.7
Calibre
12.7 mm
Ammunition feed
belt-type
Technical rate of fire
700 rpm
Number of cartridges in a belt
150
Max firing range:


at air targets
2000 m

at ground targets
2000 m
Firing (aiming) angles:


elevation
from -3 to 60 degrees

azimuth
360 degrees








LOADING SYSTEM

The loading system is a system intended to automatically load the main gun with ammunition of the available types and consisting of a conveyor, automatic loader and control system.

Type
electric hydraulic mechanical, with fixed loading angle
Number of projectile types
4
Conveyor capacity
28 rds
Conveyor rotation
in both directions
Conveyor rotation speed
25-33 degrees/sec
Loading cycle durationс:

minimum
7 sec (if the conveyor turns through 1 step)

maximum
12.5 sec (if the conveyor terns through 180°)
Loading cycle duration if using manual drives of the loading system:

if the conveyor turns through 1 step
within 1 minute

if the conveyor turns through 14 steps
within 1.6 minutes
Removal of a used cartridge
case stub with placing it into an empty loading tray without damaging air-tightness of the fighting compartment
Round ramming type
tandem-type ramming projectile and charge together) during one cycle
Availability of back-up drives
manual drives of conveyor, manual ammo feed mechanism, manual conveyor lock and manual gun lock
Conveyor replenishment time
(in replenishment mode) 15-20 minutes
Control system of the loading system installed in the tank is intended for:


ensuring control over operation of mechanical and hydraulic units of the loading system
ensuring control of the firing circuits of the main gun and coaxial machine gun
storing information about the rounds placed into the loading system conveyor

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## Sulman Badshah

INTEGRATED GUN-AND-FIRE CONTROL SYSTEM (IGFCS)

The IGFCS ensures the following:


automatic generation, with subsequent introduction into the armament control devices, of super-elevation and lateral lead angles, with taking into account various deviations of the real firing conditions from the standard ones
possibility for the commander to override the gunner and fire the main gun and coaxial machine gun from the commander’s station
firing the anti-aircraft machine gun from the commander’s station
Readiness time
within 3 minutes
Time required fir preparation of the first shot of the gun:

if the tank is stationary
10-12 sec

if the tank is on the move
10-15 sec
Gun firing range in all conditions of vehicle operation:

APFSDS
at least 2800 m

HEAT, HE-FRAG
at least 2600 m
1G46M gunner’s sight

Type
optical aiming device with two-axis independent stabilisation of the field of view, with laser range-finder and laser channel for missile guidance
Magnification
2.7-12
Field of view
4-20 degrees
Aiming angles of stabilised line of sight:

elevation
-15 to +20 degrees

azimuth
±(8±1) degrees

together with the turret
360 degrees
Speed of aiming of the line of sight:
Elevation:

minimum
within 0.05 degrees/sec

accurate aiming
from 0.05 to 1 degrees/sec

maximum
at least 3 degrees/sec
Azimuth:

minimum
within 0.05 degrees/sec

accurate aiming
from 0.05 to 1 degrees/sec

maximum
at least 3 degrees/sec
Laser range-finder:

target ranging limits
400-5000 m

measurement error
±10 m



PTT-2 thermal sighting system

The system is intended to observe, detect, recognise and identify targets and to deliver aimed fire from the main and coaxial machine gun under all conditions of vehicle operation.

Type
thermal, monocular (with built-in micro-monitor)
Operational spectral wave band
8-12 micrometres
Fields of view:

wide field of view
9x6.75 degrees

narrow field of view
3x2.25 degrees

electronic magnification
1.5x1.12 degrees
Operational ranges:

Detection range (narrow field of view)
at least 8000 m

Recognition range (narrow field of view)
at least 4500 m

Identification range (narrow field of view)
at least 2500 m













PNK-6 panoramic sighting system

The system is intended for:


detection, recognition and identification of ground and air targets by day and at night from the tank commander’s station
target ranging by means of the laser range-finder
designation of targets to the gunner
firing the main gun and the coaxial machine gun from the commander’s station in the override more
firing the anti-aircraft machine gun
Technical characteristics

Field-of-view stabilisation
independent, in two axes
Aiming angles of the stabilised line of sight:

depression
at least 15 degrees

elevation
at least 60 degrees

traverse
360xn degrees
Magnification of the day vision channel
1.2; 6; 12
Field of view of the day vision channel
30; 10; 5.5 degrees
Field of view of thermal channel:


li>wide field of view
9x6.75 degrees

narrow field of view
3x2.25 degrees

electronic magnification
1.5x1.12 degrees
Spectral range of the thermal camera
8-12 micrometres
Range of detection of a TANK-type target:

through the visual channel
at least 5500 m

through the thermal channel in the narrow field of view
at least 8000 m
Target ranging limits
200-9500 m
Mean square error of target ranging by the laser range-finder
within ±5 m










Main armament stabiliser

The main armament stabiliser ensures stabilisation and stabilised aiming of the armament in the vertical and horizontal planes.

Model
2E42M
Elevation drive
electric-and-hydraulic
Azumuth drive
electric-and-mechanical
Mean error of stabilisation:

elevation
0.3 mrad

azimuth
0.4 mrad
Gun laying speeds:

elevation:

minimum
within 0.05 degrees/sec

accurate
aiming 0.05-1 degrees/sec

azimuth:

minimum
within 0.05 degrees/sec

accurate aiming
0.05-1 degrees/sec

quick traverse
35-40 degrees/sec
Tank’s guided weapon system

The system is intended to fire a guided missile through the tank gun barrel. The aiming is carried out by means of the gunner’s 1G46M sight.

Guided missile round
Izd. 621, 3UBK14, 3UBK20
Warhead type
HEAT
Missile guidance system
semi-automatic, using a laser beam
Max firing range
5000 m
TIUS-VM tank ballistic computer

Type - analogue-and-digital, with built-in test system and digital monitoring of parameters, automatic generation of super-elevation and lead angles for all types of projectiles and coaxial machine gun, with taking into account all topographic, meteorological and ballistic parameters that affect the accuracy of firing, with automatic registration and storing the parameters of the integrated gun-and-fire control system in various modes of operation.

Parameters that are automatically taken into account by the computer - target range, own tank movement, target speed, crosswind speed, gun trunnion axis cant, angular speed of the target (in horizontal and vertical planes), target position angle, tank movement attitude angle, relative speeds of the tank, muzzle velocity of the projectile.

Parameters that are introduced into the computer manually - air temperature, charge temperature, projectile muzzle velocity deviation due to variations inherent to different lots of ammunition, atmospheric pressure, barrel wear, individual jump angle.

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## Sulman Badshah

ngle.














Input sensors of tank ballistic computer

Cant sensor

The sensor is intended for determining the position of the gun trunnion axis and providing the relevant information to the tank ballistic computer.

Trunnion axis cant angle measurement range
at least ±15 degrees
Measurement error
within 0.5 degrees
Wind sensor

The sensor is intended to measure the crosswind speed and provide the relevant information to the tank ballistic computer.

Type
capacity-type
Model
DVE-BS
Crosswind speed measurement range
within 20 m/s
Measurement error
±1 m/s
Tank speed sensor

The sensor is intended to measure the speed of tank’s own speed movement and providing the relevant information to the tank ballistic computer.

Tank speed measurement range
at least 75 km/h
Measurement error
within 0.5 km/h






Turret attitude sensor

The sensor is intended to measure the angular position of the turret relative to the hull (turret attitude angle) and provide the relevant information to the tank ballistic computer.

Turret attitude angle measurement range
at least 360 degrees
Measurement error
within 1 degrees
Muzzle reference system

The system is intended to automatically measure the gun barrel bend and provide the relevant information to the tank ballistic computer.

Gun barrel bend measurement range (in vertical and horizontal planes)
at least ±5 mrad
Measurement step
within 0.1 mrad
Anti-aircraft machine gun control system

The system is intended to:


ensure stabilisation and stabilised laying of the anti-aircraft machine gun in the vertical and horizontal planes
automatically generate and introduce super-elevation and lateral lead angles with taking into account the deviation of the current firing conditions from the standard ones






BALLISTIC PROTECTION

Main passive armour protection

Type - anti-projectile, combined, multi-layer, against penetration of HEAT and APFSDS projectiles (adapted for installation of explosive reactive armour array)

Built-in anti-tandem-warhead explosive reactive armour (BATW-ERA)

The BATW-ERA array is intended to increase the tank's level of protection against kinetic energy (APFSDS) and chemical energy ammunition (HEAT, HESH, HEP), including ammunition with tandem warheads.

The armour protection fitted with BATW-ERA ensures protection against:


hand anti-tank grenades, hand-held and stationary grenade launchers and recoilless guns (including ammunition with tandem warheads)
anti-tank missiles of TOW-2, Milan and Shturm-S type
HEAT projectiles fired by 125 mm tank smoothbore guns
APFSDS projectiles fire by 125 mm and 120 mm tank guns
The BATW-ERA array consists of glacis module and side skirts installed on the tank hull, as well as modular elements placed on the outer perimeter of the front and side surfaces of the turret and containers installed on the turret roof.

The Nozh explosive reactive armour elements installed in special niches snap into action when hit by all types of hollow-charge warheads and sub-calibre armour-piercing projectiles.

The Nozh explosive reactive armour elements of the BATW-ERA do not detonate when hit by 12.7 mm bullets, 30 mm armour-piercing projectiles and shell fragments. The Nozh explosive reactive armour elements do not require any maintenance and are safe to deal with.

The Nozh explosive reactive armour elements are stored in containers or on the tank in heated premises or in the open air under a shed protecting them against precipitation and solar irradiation at temperatures from -50 to +55 degrees Centigrade. They can also be stored under the conditions of high humidity (100%) at temperatures of up to +35 degrees Centigrade.

The Nozh explosive reactive armour elements retain their qualities for 10 years, including storage in field conditions for up to 5 years and use on the tank for up to 3 years if the requirements for use, transportation and storage are met.

It takes the tank crew 2.4 to 2.6 hours to prepare the BATW-ERA array for combat operation within without the need to use any special contrivances (to do this, only the explosive reactive armour elements are to be installed).

Anti-mine protection

The anti-mine protection makes it possible to preserve the combat readiness of the crew and operability of the tank's interior equipment in case an anti-tank mine explodes under the tank track (up to 10 kg TNT equivalent) or under the tank driver's compartment bottom plate (up to 4 kg TNT equivalent).











SPECIAL PROTECTION MEANS

Optronic countermeasures system

To improve the tank protectability, the Varta optronic countermeasure system is integrated in the tank.

The optronic countermeasure system provides:


confusing of the guidance systems of ATGM by putting out laser jamming covering the horizontal plane of ±18° relative to the main gun tube and ±2° in the vertical plane
jamming of the ATGM guidance systems that use laser illumination of targets, semi-automatic laser guided homing projectiles as well as artillery systems equipped with laser range-finders by activating the remote fast-deploying aerosol screens in a sector of ±45° relative to the main gun tube
Optronic jamming station

Time of readiness
6 h (unlimited in combat conditions)
Time of uninterrupted operation
6 (в боевых условиях не ограниченно)
Sector of setting the light interferences relatively the gun:
in elevation
±2 degrees
in azimuth (relative to the gun barrel axis)
±20 degrees
Aerosol screen laying system

Mode of operation
automatic, semiautomatic, manual
System reaction time in auto mode
less than 0.5 s
Coverage sector by four laser emitters:
in azimuth
360 dg
in elevation
-5 to +25 dg
Qty of launchers
12
Grenade caliber
80 mm
Screen laying range
at least 50 m
Applicable grenade:
time for laying the screen
not more than 3 s
average area covered by a grenade
10x15 m
effective screen duration time
60 s
Crew’s collective protection system

The system ensures protection of the crew and interior equipment against effects of nuclear explosions, radioactive substances, toxic agents and biological warfare agents, as well as detection and suppression of fires in the crew compartment and power pack compartment.






NBC protection system

PRHR-M1 radiation and chemical agents detector

PRHR-М1 (RCAD) is designed for continuous check-up, detection, signalling and control using actuators of protection means:


during intensive gamma- radiation (nuclear blast)
during gamma-radiation on the contaminated terrain followed by measuring the doze of radiation
during detection of poisonous vapors in the air as a result of enemy actions
The instrument provides light and audible signals in case of detection poisonous agents in the air or gamma-radiation on the terrain as well as it generates commands for switching blower on and shifting over the valve of filtering ventilation unit (FVU) in the filtering position.

The instrument provides light and audible signals in case of detection powerful gamma radiation as well as commands for engine shutdown, shifting over the valve of FVU in the filtering ventilation mode, switching off the blower if it was on, followed by switching it on in 30 to 50 s.

The instrument provides checking its electrical circuits by generation commands (or without command generation) to actuators.

Range of measuring power of gamma radiation exposure doze
0.2-150 R/h
Response time:

powerful gamma radiation
within 0.1 s

пgamma radiation of contaminated terrain
within 10 s

detection the the air vapors of poisonous chemical agents (outside the vehicle)
within 40 s
Filter-ventilator unit

The filter-ventilator unit serves to clean external air from poisonous substances, radioactive dust, biological aerosols, to supply cleaned air into the crew compartment and create overpressure in it, as well as to ventilate the crew compartment during firing and fire fighting system comes into action.

Air consumption:

via absorber filter
at least 100 cubic metres per hour

bypassing the absorber filter
at least 390 cubic metres per ho

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## Sulman Badshah

Filter-ventilator unit functions in 2 modes:


Ventilation mode. In this case blower delivers the dust-free air to crew compartment passing by the absorber filter
Filtering and ventilation mode. In this mode the blower delivers the clean air to the crew compartment through the absorber filter



Fire suppression system

The system with optical sensors and thermal sensors is designed for detection of fire sources in the crew compartment and power pack compartment and quick suppression, generation of commands for ventilation activation and removal thermal decomposition products from the crew compartment.

Methods of activation:

Automatically
vehicle mains is on

Manually
panel buttons of the driving compartment and power pack compartment
Response time:

crew compartment
not more than 150 ms

power pack
not more than 10 ms

Number of bottle use
2 times

Number of bottles with fire-extinguishing compounds
4 pcs
Fire suppression is exercised by filling the free space of the compartment with extinguishing compound where fire takes place.

For this article proposed are the bottles of 2 litre capacity filled with fire-extinguishing compound Chladon 114B2 or other compound (as agreed) under pressure of 75 kgf/cm2. The bottles are equipped with high-acting heads and pressure alarms.

To provide article survivability, the system has two bottles for each compartment (crew compartment and power pack compartment).

Tank signature reduction means

Dazzle painting

Dazzle is intended for decreasing visibility of a tank and distortion of its image. Dazzle painting used is of three colors. The main color is green, auxiliary color is yellow-gray and additional color is black. Desert color is also used for painting.

Natural camouflage clamps

Clamps for natural camouflage are intended for fastening on the tank branches, grass and so on. There are 24 clamps in the tank set.

Thermal insulation

Thermal insulation is intended for decreasing range and probability of tank detection with heat reconnaissance apparatus and high-precision home warheads.

The thermal insulation consists of ETC top plate blowing channels and reflective screens.

Engine smoke generator

Engine smoke generator is intended for laying smoke screen with the diesel fuel.

Mode of action
multiple
Continuous action time
not more than 10 minutes
Fuel consumption
10 to 12 l/min
















CAMOUFLAGE COVER KIT

The camouflage cover kit is intended to reduce:


the visual signature of the tank
the value of the tank's effective surface of dispersion in order to decrease the distance of detection of the tank by means of radar-type detection stations and weapon guidance systems
the thermal irradiation of the heated outer surfaces of the tank in order to decrease the distance of detection of the tank by means of thermal imaging devices and to decrease the probability of 'capturing' the tank by infra-red homing warheads of anti-tank weapon systems (anti-tank guided missiles, mortar projectiles, artillery projectiles)
Level of reduction of power of the signal reflected from the camouflaged vehicle (in the band of 0.8-4 cm)
within 18 dB
Reduction of probability of detection of the camouflaged tank by air-borne radar-type detection systems, at distances of 20 km or more (with the resolution on the terrain being 5-15 m), in comparison with the non-camouflaged tank
at least by twice
Reduction of probability of 'capturing' the camouflaged tank by radar-type systems of weapon guidance, in comparison with the non-camouflaged tank
at least by twice
Probability of detection of the camouflaged vehicle on a airphoto (with the resolution on the terrain being at least 0.2 m)
within 0.3
Distance at which the camouflaged vehicle cannot be recognised visually
at least 1,000 m
Reduction of level of infra-red irradiation of the camouflaged vehicle, in comparison with the non-camouflaged vehicle
at least by thrice
Colours being used protective
green, grey-and-yellow, black




SELF-ENTRENCHING DEVICE

Self-entrenching device is intended for digging out individual trenches. It is mounted on the lower nose plate of the tank hull.

Blade is designed for cutting the soil, its displacement, bracings for keeping the blade in operational state during soil cutting, guiding planks – for keeping bracings and for blocking the blade from rotation and the clamp serves for keeping the blade in the move.

Self-entrenching device can take two positions: in stowing and in operation.

In stowing, the blade is fastened with two clamps to the lower plate of tank nose.

In operation position, the blade is lowered and when the tank moves forward, it cuts the soil by resting on the bracings. When tank moves backwards, the blade freely slips with its rear part along the soil surface without displacing the soil.

INSTALLATION OF MINE CLEARING SYSTEM

The tank provides for installation of track mine-clearing system (TMC) that allows to pave the way for tanks across mine fields.

To do that the tank hull is equipped with special weldings. Driver's compartment provides place for connection to compressor and tank power supply for controlling the mine clearing system.

Individual set of SPTA is used for its assembly and maintenance. This set makes it possible to carry out the said work by tank crew.









POWER PACK

Power pack is a system of units and assemblies that includes the engine and its service system as follows: fuel system, air feed system, oil system, cooling system, exhaust and heating systems. Power pack is operational in the ambient temperatures from -40 to +55 degrees Centigrade.




Engine

6ТD-2 engine is a multifuel, 6-cylinder, double-stroke liquid cooled diesel engine.

Maximum output using diesel fuel
882 kW (1200 hp)
Max. torque at diesel fuel at engine crankshaft rotation speed at (1600±10) rpm
3135 N (320 kgf·m)
Rotational speed of the crankshaft at max. power
2600 rpm
Specific fuel consumption at maximum power mode
211-231 g/kW·h (155-170 g/hp·h)
Mass of the dry engine
1180-1240 kg
Dimensions:


length
1602 mm

width
955 mm

height
581 mm

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

This is a beast for sure, a warning on the hearts of neighbors. Lol Sorry.

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## Sulman Badshah

KMDB - Oplot Main Battle Tank


----------



## cabatli_53

waz said:


> Looks great, it's still being evaluated though right?
> I feel we are better off going with the Turks and Altay, which is turning out to be a beast.



I think Checking solutions from other sources different than China is important for Pakistan. Having multiple sources or putting countries into a hard competition instead of favouring just one source always give satisfactory benefits on long term so It is either Ukraine or Turkey on any project will provide a good opportunity to reach more ToT's Pakistan requires.

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## RAMPAGE

@kaonalpha

So this means that AL-Khalid project is officaly dead, no?

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> Zarvan
> 
> https://defence.pk/members/horus.15719/
> 
> care to comment oh zarvan tag dazzler


Finally a beast coming good job Army and when we should expect production to start

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## WaLeEdK2

I hope the Al Khalid project still continues though.


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## waz

cabatli_53 said:


> I think Checking solutions from other sources different than China is important for Pakistan. Having multiple sources or putting countries into a hard competition instead of favouring just one source always give satisfactory benefits on long term so It is either Ukraine or Turkey on any project will provide a good opportunity to reach more ToT's Pakistan requires.



I agree. In this case I don't see much room for Ukraine. I think Turkey has the most viable option and is arguably the best machine.

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## saurav

Good Choice.. a JV with China would have surely given more legroom to local industries, right..?


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## kaonalpha

RAMPAGE said:


> @kaonalpha
> 
> So this means that AL-Khalid project is officaly dead, no?


Al khalid stays

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## cabatli_53

waz said:


> I agree. In this case I don't see much room for Ukraine. I think Turkey has the most viable option and is arguably the best machine.




It would be great If Turkey and Pakistan collaborated over Altay project brother but Altay needs 1-2 years for serial production. Evaluation of Altay has already been proceeding but It is for sure that If Pakistan describe a requirement, Turkey will never stay behind for competition, since Turkey is seriously interested in Pakistani projects but I personally didn't meet any news and gossip regarding that.

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## Bratva

RAMPAGE said:


> @kaonalpha
> 
> Is Zaslon APS included in the package?



Yes. You can see the APS in pics even. Though not a hard kill, but soft kill APS

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## Malik Alashter

Thought Pakistan making tanks has the ability to design and build them.


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## s.k

i think this will be next al haider block and al khalid will be armata or altay lo


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## Bratva

RAMPAGE said:


> @kaonalpha
> 
> So this means that AL-Khalid project is officaly dead, no?



In 10 years, Only 450 al Khalid have been manufactured. We need to replace 1500 tanks in like 10 years. This is where foreign tanks comes in the picture

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## Gufi

cabatli_53 said:


> It would be great If Turkey and Pakistan collaborated over Altay project brother but Altay needs 1-2 years for serial production. Evaluation of Altay has already been proceeding but It is for sure that If Pakistan describe a requirement, Turkey will never stay behind for competition, since Turkey is seriously interested in Pakistani projects but I personally didn't meet any news and gossip regarding that.


I think I read that the engine is not local but an import, I am not sure about this, if you could tell me what the case is? because any engine originating from western entities would be worrisome for Pakistan as sanctions have crippled our armed forces at vital times before.


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## kaonalpha

RAMPAGE said:


> @kaonalpha
> 
> Is Zaslon APS included in the package?



I'm not at liberty to say. But it will be customized according to our needs.

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## Basel

kaonalpha said:


> You expect a link this early. Please the reason I uploaded the above picss are because they have overcome the trials In Bhawalpur. The MBT-3000 failed. Plus order from above not to encourage chinese at all.



If MBT-3000 have failed, which is successor of MBT-2000, which derivative is our AK. Does it mean AK not good tank because even successor have failed?



Sulman Badshah said:


> Oplot M had got a upper hand against MBT3000 ... it is a better choice



Please compare both machines.

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## Kowak

T-84 is a good choice as MBT but in 2015 there are several different tanks to try. Especially for protection.

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## Basel

waz said:


> Looks great, it's still being evaluated though right?
> I feel we are better off going with the Turks and Altay, which is turning out to be a beast.



Agreed Pakistan should work with Turkey to develop AK-2.

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## kaonalpha

By failed I mean our military does not see them as reliable as Ukraine or Russian counterparts. 
The al khalid survived because we did our own customization and redesigning. Or else the mbt 2000 for china is a failure.




Basel said:


> If MBT-3000 have failed, which is successor of MBT-2000, which derivative is our AK. Does it mean AK not good tank because even successor have failed?
> 
> 
> 
> Please compare both machines.

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## FunkyGen

Malik Alashter said:


> Thought Pakistan making tanks has the ability to design and build them.


we can manufacture them but not upto the quality level as let's say the russians, or the ukrainians for that matter...
i believe we did wish that the chinese would develop something more suitable but seeing their tank i felt like they didn't put a whole lot attention to their tank development...
ukrainian r&d in this sector is without any doubt superior to ours and since we already operate their tanks anyways we know em pretty well...
surprisingly even though the chief didn't even visit ukraine, it seems that his trips certainly don't revolve around munitions rather something else...

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## waz

Gufi said:


> I think I read that the engine is not local but an import, I am not sure about this, if you could tell me what the case is? because any engine originating from western entities would be worrisome for Pakistan as sanctions have crippled our armed forces at vital times before.



Turkey's next batch of Altays will have their own engine. This issue has been taken care of bro. There is a long thread on the Turkish section about this great tank.

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## Sulman Badshah

Malik Alashter said:


> Thought Pakistan making tanks has the ability to design and build them.


ability in making i say yes .. engine making , advance fcs and optronics are problem

designing a new tank can take years to materialize

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## FunkyGen

kaonalpha said:


> By failed I mean our military does not see them as reliable as Ukraine or Russian counterparts.
> The al khalid survived because we did our own customization and redesigning. Or else the mbt 2000 for china is a failure.


sir that failry means what basel has said to be true to a certain extent... the base tank was lacking...
chinese for some reason don't seem to be interested in tank manufacturing... their emphasis is towards crafts and helis...

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## cabatli_53

Oplets were put into a strong field trials against Western tanks like Leopard 2A6, Leclerc in Turkey. Turkish officials know the minues/plus sides of Oplets. Altay is the product of such field experiences gained on those trials. 

I am going to share the images of Oplets fielded in Turkey. 

Oplet and Leo 






Oplet, Leo and Leclerc in winter trials in Turkey






Oplet

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## Skyliner

kaonalpha said:


> View attachment 236795
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 236796
> View attachment 236797
> 
> 
> The oplot M has been considerd over the MBT 3000. It is official that Pakistan will not pursue the MB-3000
> 
> Certain change will be made.Allow me to further explain. The Ukrainians have offered the tank a standard version.
> 
> Our demand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus Demand of local manufacturing of spare parts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I say local yes I say with confidance that we have demanded that 60% of the components be made in Pakistan.


Now can you please disclose the other two competitors with the MBT3000 and Oplot


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## Kompromat

waz said:


> Looks great, it's still being evaluated though right?
> I feel we are better off going with the Turks and Altay, which is turning out to be a beast.



Too heavy.


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## kaonalpha

Skyliner post: 7376176 said:


> Now can you please disclose the other two competitors with the MBT3000 and Oplot


It a T-?? Happy though we can get them but lets see they should be arriving in december.

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> You expect a link this early. Please the reason I uploaded the above picss are because they have overcome the trials In Bhawalpur. The MBT-3000 failed. Plus order from above not to encourage chinese at all.


Not to encourage Chinese ? What do you mean ? @kaonalpha

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## TheFlyingPretzel

@Icarus 

Thought it appropriate to tag you.

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## cabatli_53

Horus said:


> Too heavy.



Bro, Being Heavier is the choice of brain team since they believe on benefits of heavier tanks compared with 45-50 tonnes equivalents. Israeli Merkava are also following similar ways on developments, since Each blocks of Merkava revealed with additional weight and Finally, They reached around 65 tonnes on MK-4 series(3-5 tonnes additional weight). It is more or less same weight of Altay. I think Heavier tanks will be better for Pakistan as long as They are not used on soft and highly mountainous grounds. IFV's equipped with heavier calbre guns/having less pressure effect under the pallets are more suitable for such mountainous regions.

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## Mughal-Prince

kaonalpha said:


> It a T-?? Happy though we can get them but lets see they should be arriving in december.



If Chinese then T-99G probably or if Russian which is in my opinion for now highly unlikely although our relations are warming up but still need time so I will be surprise with an Armata or a 90 series with our bespoke customisation .


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## Sulman Badshah

cabatli_53 said:


> I think Heavier tanks will be better for Pakistan as long as They are not used on soft and highly mountainous grounds.


agreed ... heavy shouldn't be a problem since india is operating arjun on almost same soil and deserts

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> It a T-?? Happy though we can get them but lets see they should be arriving in december.


You are confusing here If they have not arrived than they are not tested yet so are you saying we are looking for two Tanks


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## Kompromat

cabatli_53 said:


> Bro, Being Heavier is the choice of brain team since they believe on benefits of heavier tanks compared with 45-50 tonnes equivalents. Israeli Merkava are also following similar ways on developments, since Each blocks of Merkava revealed with additional weight and Finally, They reached around 65 tonnes on MK-4 series(3-5 tonnes additional weight). It is more or less same weight of Altay. I think Heavier tanks will be better for Pakistan as long as They are not used on soft and highly mountainous grounds. IFV's equipped with heavier calbre guns/having less pressure effocts on ground are more suitable for such mountainous regions.



I am sorry, i meant that Altay is too heavy for Pakistan's topographical area of operations which includes shallow slug infested river deltas and extremely saturated soil which makes it difficult for Tank that size to operate, this is why Pakistan goes with below 50t class of tanks.

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## Mughal-Prince

cabatli_53 said:


> Bro, Being Heavier is the choice of brain team since they believe on benefits of heavier tanks compared with 45-50 tonnes equivalents. Israeli Merkava are also following similar ways on developments, since Each blocks of Merkava revealed with additional weight and Finally, They reached around 65 tonnes on MK-4 series(3-5 tonnes additional weight). It is more or less same weight of Altay. I think Heavier tanks will be better for Pakistan as long as They are not used on soft and highly mountainous grounds. IFV's equipped with heavier calbre guns/having less pressure effect under the pallets are more suitable for such mountainous regions.



As I have following this weight thingy I believe all this additional weight increase its armour protection with indeed some sophistication in subsystems as well but primarily a tank means protection and precision attack under direct fire. So by going that logic we must need to develop infrastructure for some heavy weights as well because times in future are bringing in our all time allies making these at their home.

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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> You are confusing here If they have not arrived than they are not tested yet so are you saying we are looking for two Tanks


It Is called business

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## Audio

I will be very surprised if this will materialize.
Politics and all....not only do Chinese "expect" you to buy theirs, the Russians might have a word or two, commenting on Pakistan buying from Ukraine. SCO membership means some concessions will have to be made. Probably.

Tank looks good though, like the rugged look of it.


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## Hell hound

kaonalpha said:


> It a T-?? Happy though we can get them but lets see they should be arriving in december.


is it t-14?or is it just wet dream


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## kaonalpha

Mughal-Prince said:


> If Chinese then T-99G probably or if Russian which is in my opinion for now highly unlikely although our relations are warming up but still need time so I will be surprise with an Armata or a 90 series with our bespoke customisation .



You need to see a doctor the armata please . The russians are sending T90-MS.

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## Mughal-Prince

Horus said:


> I am sorry, i meant that Altay is too heavy for Pakistan's topographical area of operations which includes shallow slug infested river deltas and extremely saturated soil which makes it difficult for Tank that size to operate, this is why Pakistan goes with below 50t class of tanks.



But Horus what you say about indians as they are looking towards heavier platform which is their Arjun tank although it is unsatisfactory and not inducted but they have built one in the heavy class. They also have the same terrain which we have not precisely but we are in the same conditions.



kaonalpha said:


> You need to see a doctor the armata please . The russians are sending T90-MS.



See I told ya T-90 MS

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## Skyliner

kaonalpha said:


> It a T-?? Happy though we can get them but lets see they should be arriving in december.





kaonalpha said:


> You need to see a doctor the armata please . The russians are sending T90-MS.


Im not getting it
we are going for two tanks or later we will choose between oplot and T90


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## Kompromat

Mughal-Prince said:


> But Horus what you say about indians as they are looking towards heavier platform which is their Arjun tank although it is unsatisfactory and not inducted but they have built one in the heavy class. They also have the same terrain which we have not precisely but we are in the same conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> See I told ya T-90 MS



Indians made the wrong choice and paid billions for it.

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## Tipu7

RAMPAGE said:


> @kaonalpha
> 
> So this means that AL-Khalid project is officaly dead, no?


No..... AK first reach the target of 600 tanks. T84 will replace type69 and type59 tanks...... AK project will proceed further if needed in future



WaLeEdK2 said:


> I hope the Al Khalid project still continues though.


Of course it will

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## Mughal-Prince

Skyliner said:


> Im not getting it
> we are going for two tanks or later we will choose between oplot and T90



It seems Oplot nay MBT-3000 ko chit ker diya hai aur aanay wali kubuddi main Oplot aur T-90 MS sahmil hoon gay. I think Pakistani abhi jis tank marathon main gaye thay Russia wahan T-90 kay kamalat say kafi mutasir huay hain .


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## Kowak

Skyliner said:


> Im not getting it
> we are going for two tanks or later we will choose between oplot and T90


I think T-90 is much better then old T-84 for protection and technology.


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## That Guy

VelocuR said:


> Nonsense, bullshit.
> 
> Hope Pakistan should *NOT* go ahead with Ukraine's junks, so better stick with China.


Pakistani tanks use Ukrainian engines, so calling it junk is nonsense.

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## cabatli_53

Mughal-Prince said:


> As I have following this weight thingy I believe all this additional weight increase its armour protection with indeed some sophistication in subsystems as well but primarily a tank means protection and precision attack under direct fire. So by going that logic we must need to develop infrastructure for some heavy weights as well because times in future are bringing in our all time allies making these at their home.




Indeed. As you said, Additional weight doesn't serve to host additional interior space for crew but additional armour protection and sensors. To keep mobility around standarts, The engines generating more powers are being installed on. Bigger hourse power brings more fuel consumption. It means Design should be upgraded to host larger fuel tanks to be stationed into a place protected heavily. Heavier weight/bigger power always introduce more heat/ bigger size/height and IR signiture to enemy. To prevent a likely missile/round attack, It is required sophisticated active/passive protection systems on turret and 360 degree radar coverage along with electronic hardwares controlling them. All those means extra weights and so New generation tanks are reaching a weight around 65 tonnes.

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## SQ8

Selection of a tank depends upon its performance in the core areas where its deployment is being planned. The biggest issue was the deep underbelly of Pakistan which is the desert and semi-arid area between Sindh and Punjab. In addition, there was a need for a 1-2 punch with the strike corps where the AK would play shoot and scoot whilst another could play steam roller. This tank(whichever it will be) is to be the latter.

Heavier tanks may generally be unsuitable for the sort of terrain and more importantly support infrastructure that Pakistan has for its mechanized units. India found out to its own detriment that the Arjun despite its formidable gait cant go on most of its bridges or any other quickfire solution. What is the point then of having such a heavy tank when it cannot get to the front using the current infrastructure available.



That Guy said:


> Pakistani tanks use Ukrainian engines, so calling it junk is nonsense.


Congratulations! You have just experienced a Pakistani trait known as "write first, think later". That was your 1210383th experience of the latter...sadly we dont have any prizes available for going through this.

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## That Guy

I can't find a single source to corroborate this thread, my BS senses are tingling.

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## Mughal-Prince

Horus said:


> Indians made the wrong choice and paid billions for it.


 Yaar this is serious incompetence towards them, damit they can't even choose the right thing to make ??? are they not in this region ?? why they didn't first ask for some similar kind of weight tank for a trial.


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## omega supremme

Kowak said:


> I think T-90 is much better then old T-84 for protection and technology.




as india already has T-90 so high chances we won't go for it but maybe to learn about it's weakness we are also bringing it for testing


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## graphican

Not sure what's going on, Oplot was never on the radar as a procurement. Not at PDF at least. I don't feel a joy for selecting it yet. Guys tell us more and bring some comparative data on the front.


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## Armstrong

Kowak said:


> I think T-90 is much better then old T-84 for protection and technology.



Are you really Italian ?

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## That Guy

Oscar said:


> Selection of a tank depends upon its performance in the core areas where its deployment is being planned. The biggest issue was the deep underbelly of Pakistan which is the desert and semi-arid area between Sindh and Punjab. In addition, there was a need for a 1-2 punch with the strike corps where the AK would play shoot and scoot whilst another could play steam roller. This tank is to be the latter.
> 
> Heavier tanks may generally be unsuitable for the sort of terrain and more importantly support infrastructure that Pakistan has for its mechanized units. India found out to its own detriment that the Arjun despite its formidable gait cant go on most of its bridges or any other quickfire solution. What is the point then of having such a heavy tank when it cannot get to the front using the current infrastructure available.
> 
> 
> Congratulations! You have just experienced a Pakistani trait known as "write first, think later". That was your 1210383th experience of the latter...sadly we dont have any prizes available for going through this.


Do I win a prise?


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## Kowak

omega supremme said:


> as india already has T-90 so high chances we won't go for it but maybe to learn about it's weakness we are also bringing it for testing


Sure but the T-84 model isn't been upgraded for years. The test is made on a tank based on a T-80 project of Soviet Era. The T-84 is a bit out of time.



Armstrong said:


> Are you really Italian ?


Yes why?

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## Mughal-Prince

Oscar said:


> Heavier tanks may generally be unsuitable for the sort of terrain and more importantly support infrastructure that Pakistan has for its mechanized units. India found out to its own detriment that the Arjun despite its formidable gait cant go on most of its bridges or any other quickfire solution. What is the point then of having such a heavy tank when it cannot get to the front using the current infrastructure available.



Baray bhaiya its raises a question that Primarily the terrain in important and then infrastructure comes in after checking out what is suitable so even as a brain fart we are able to convert or upgrade whole infrastructure to accommodate heavier busters still terrain just wont let us do this.


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## RAMPAGE

kaonalpha said:


> I'm not at liberty to say. But it will be customized according to our needs.


What is the status of AK NG project?


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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> It Is called business


Are you trying to drive me crazy ? Pakistan is getting weapons not jaleebis its serious issue if two Tanks are yet to arrive that means we can be looking at another Tank being chosen along with T-84 Oplot M. By the way what is the status of AL KHALID II ?

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## FunkyGen

Armstrong said:


> Are you really Italian ?

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## Kompromat

Mughal-Prince said:


> Yaar this is serious incompetence towards them, damit they can't even choose the right thing to make ??? are they not in this region ?? why they didn't first ask for some similar kind of weight tank for a trial.



India decided to build Arjun in sheer panic when Pakistan started testing the M1s.

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## FunkyGen

Zarvan said:


> Are you trying to drive me crazy ? Pakistan is getting weapons not jaleebis its serious issue if two Tanks are yet to arrive that means we can be looking at another Tank being chosen along with T-84 Oplot M. By the way what is the status of AL KHALID II ?


the 2 is as real as tooth fairies...


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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> What is the status of AK NG project?


What is NG ? Next Generation ?


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## Armstrong

@kaonalpha - Bhai write a post analyzing the T-84's strengths and weaknesses in the context of Pakistan viz a vie what Pakistan will face in battle !

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## Kowak

FunkyGen said:


>


Why?


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## FunkyGen

Kowak said:


> Sure but the T-84 model isn't been upgraded for years. The test is made on a tank based on a T-80 project of Soviet Era. The T-84 is a bit out of time.


we will not accept it as it is, we'll make modifications for sure...



Kowak said:


> Why?


girl/boy ?

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## Skyliner

Mughal-Prince said:


> It seems Oplot nay MBT-3000 ko chit ker diya hai aur aanay wali kubuddi main Oplot aur T-90 MS sahmil hoon gay. I think Pakistani abhi jis tank marathon main gaye thay Russia wahan T-90 kay kamalat say kafi mutasir huay hain .





Kowak said:


> I think T-90 is much better then old T-84 for protection and technology.


I would love to see T90MS in Pak army which seems highly unlikely to happen as india have t90 as well

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## Armstrong

Kowak said:


> Yes why?



Welcome to the forum !  

I suppose its surprising to see an Italian here on a Pakistani forum !


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## N/A

What will Pakistan's armor consist of by 2020


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## FunkyGen

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> What will Pakistan's armor consist of by 2020


AK-1
Oplot
UD... probably...



Tipu7 said:


> No..... AK first reach the target of 600 tanks. T84 will replace type69 and type59 tanks...... AK project will proceed further if needed in future


Oplot is too advanced to replace such vintage tanks...


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## Kowak

FunkyGen said:


> we will not accept it as it is, we'll make modifications for sure...
> 
> 
> girl/boy ?


Boy LOL
However, modify an existing tank isn't expensive?


Armstrong said:


> Welcome to the forum !
> 
> I suppose its surprising to see an Italian here on a Pakistani forum !


Eheh I know  in Italy there aren't military forums... -.-

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## FunkyGen

Kowak said:


> Boy LOL
> However, modify an existing tank isn't expensive?


maybe expensive but very necessary, everybody does that according to their operation requirements... of course not two countries have the exact same matching terrains, now do they...

and welcome to the forum, hope you stay is long and productive...


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## Armstrong

Kowak said:


> Eheh I know  in Italy there aren't military forums... -.-



So AC/Inter Milan, Juventus or Roma ?  

You can't possibly support Napoli or Fiorentina !


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## Mughal-Prince

Horus said:


> India decided to build Arjun in sheer panic when Pakistan started testing the M1s.


Oui es ka tau balatkaar ho gayee .
Juldi ka kaam shaitan ka


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## tahir195

WTF how can a future tank is inferior than a tank which is been design in 90's ye ho kia raha hai


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## SQ8

Mughal-Prince said:


> Baray bhaiya its raises a question that Primarily the terrain in important and then infrastructure comes in after checking out what is suitable so even as a brain fart we are able to convert or upgrade whole infrastructure to accommodate heavier busters still terrain just wont let us do this.



That means that not only does one pay the billions for the heavy tank, they also pay the additional millions to upgrade that infrastructure(not a simple task) . Han, if say Prince waleed bin Talal was an idiot and donated all his money to Pakistan then it would have been possible to go with a tank like the British Challenger even.

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## Kowak

FunkyGen said:


> maybe expensive but very necessary, everybody does that according to their operation requirements... of course not two countries have the exact same matching terrains, now do they...
> 
> and welcome to the forum, hope you stay is long and productive...


Alright!
Thanks!


Armstrong said:


> So AC/Inter Milan, Juventus or Roma ?
> 
> You can't possibly support Napoli or Fiorentina !


Maybe it will be strange for you all guys but I hate soccer  just love weapons and martial arts

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## Armstrong

Kowak said:


> Maybe it will be strange for you all guys but I hate soccer  just love weapons and martial arts



What ?  

But football is so  !

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## FunkyGen

Kowak said:


> Maybe it will be strange for you all guys but I hate *soccer * just love weapons and martial arts


football*

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## Mughal-Prince

Skyliner said:


> I would love to see T90MS in Pak army which seems highly unlikely to happen as india have t90 as well


Kion bhai aren't we both are uraying Mig 21 variants ?? and we missed Mirage 2009 around the corner or we would have been flying 80 to 120 of them.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Malik Alashter said:


> Thought Pakistan making tanks has the ability to design and build them.


AK Program stays.. 

Diversity..


We have thousands of tanks to replace.. Type-59s,85IIAPs,eyc etc.

Oplot isn't only a good tank but offers us commonality with our existing T-80UDs (which have the same turret and other systems).

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## SQ8

That Guy said:


> I can't find a single source to corroborate this thread, my BS senses are tingling.


Its better to wait for official announcements before accepting any news.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

waz said:


> Turkey's next batch of Altays will have their own engine. This issue has been taken care of bro. There is a long thread on the Turkish section about this great tank.


For that we would have to wait for years and we have Alot of tanks to replace... We can't possible chun out more than 50 AKs per year... Nor wait for 4-5 years for Altays serial production and than wait for its delivery (which would begin after the Turks equip their forces)... But the good news is that certain systems which we imported from France will be bought from Turkey for AKs..

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## Mughal-Prince

Oscar said:


> That means that not only does one pay the billions for the heavy tank, they also pay the additional millions to upgrade that infrastructure(not a simple task) . Han, if say Prince waleed bin Talal was an idiot and donated all his money to Pakistan then it would have been possible to go with a tank like the British Challenger even.



But Oscar bhai again terrain is meddling in the middle!!! we can change infrastructure but terrain will remain the same.

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## Kowak

Armstrong said:


> What ?
> 
> But football is so  !


Most of my friends say the same but I prefer girls and weapons

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Oscar said:


> Its better to wait for official announcements before accepting any news.


What we're the other contenders ?

Apart from 3000.


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## Armstrong

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> AK Program stays..
> 
> Diversity..
> 
> 
> We have thousands of tanks to replace.. Type-59s,85IIAPs,eyc etc.
> 
> Oplot isn't only a good tank but offers us commonality with our existing T-80UDs (which have the same turret and other systems).



Oplot doesn't seem to make any sense !  

I was under the impression that our T-80 UDs already incorporated some of the features of the T-84 - What extra does the Oplot bring to the table that merits going for another Tank ?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Armstrong said:


> Oplot doesn't seem to make any sense !
> 
> I was under the impression that our T-80 UDs already incorporated some of the features of the T-84 - What extra does the Oplot bring to the table that merits going for another Tank ?


Arms corps definetly prefers AKs over UDs... So my best guess would be they want a tank to replace the older Type series .. What Oplot offers here is commonality with our UDs..

We saw that when HIT bought the Dragoon for production (under license) coz it also uses common parts used in M series APCs which you know we are producing (different variants based on M-113s)..

But than again @Oscar. OP can shed more light on that.

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## SQ8

Mughal-Prince said:


> But Oscar bhai again terrain is meddling in the middle!!! we can change infrastructure but terrain will remain the same.


That is true. For e.g. the Arjun is entirely handicapped in the Punjab plains and has little to offer in that soft ground. By contrast, the AK, the T-84 and AZ all can easily traverse almost any terrain that is in the area. 
The T-90MS and in its numbers is the true tank to worry about on the other side, the Arjun is simply not a factor and even the IA knows it. I would not be surprised if there is a tender for a heavier tank some 3-5 years later(or earlier) by India as a tit-for-tat; they suffer from the issue of buying stuff regardless of whether they need it or not.
Which is fine because they can afford it, but that still does not mean they dont look like pompous douche's doing it when clearly they outgun us on every front.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

kaonalpha said:


> It a T-?? Happy though we can get them but lets see they should be arriving in december.


Alaka just say it out loud -- You mean Armata!


P.S: did we select Oplot before even the Ts even arrived!


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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> Oplot doesn't seem to make any sense !
> 
> I was under the impression that our T-80 UDs already incorporated some of the features of the T-84 - What extra does the Oplot bring to the table that merits going for another Tank ?



Why would anyone prefer saving on logistics and training costs? I'm sure such ideas escape fake Kashmiri Bhattas and their need to wear new Raybans(chinese) and show of their Hardley Davidsons(175cc) every year.

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## waz

Horus said:


> Too heavy.



Lighter than the Abrams and Leopard, both which have been operating in Afghanistan and Iraq with ease.
Weight is not an issue bro.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Audio said:


> I will be very surprised if this will materialize.
> Politics and all....not only do Chinese "expect" you to buy theirs, the Russians might have a word or two, commenting on Pakistan buying from Ukraine. SCO membership means some concessions will have to be made. Probably.
> 
> Tank looks good though, like the rugged look of it.


I doubt that very much.. China doesn't hold any preference or authority .. We buy from them due to several factors .. Soft loans,TOT etc.

Russia not really we are getting Mi-35s from them and they have already offered us SAMs and according to recent news Su-35s...


Ukraine has been an old partner -- Il-78s,Help with AK program,Kombat ATGMs,UDs etc etc.

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## kaonalpha

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Alaka just say it out loud -- You mean Armata!
> 
> 
> P.S: did we select Oplot before even the Ts even arrived!


The oplot arrived when I visited karachi last month. I did not mention It due to certain circumstances.

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## waz

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> For that we would have to wait for years and we have Alot of tanks to replace... We can't possible chun out more than 50 AKs per year... Nor wait for 4-5 years for Altays serial production and than wait for its delivery (which would begin after the Turks equip their forces)... But the good news is that certain systems which we imported from France will be bought from Turkey for AKs..



Replace the tanks with MBT 3000 and Al-Khalids. At the sametime stick the order in for the Altay. The Turks are not far off serial production.

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## SQ8

kaonalpha said:


> The oplot arrived when I visited karachi last month. I did not mention It due to certain circumstances.


It was going to come earlier(along with other requirements) if not for the Ukrainian crisis.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

kaonalpha said:


> The oplot arrived when I visited karachi last month. I did not mention It due to certain circumstances.


So what happens to Armata or MS if we buy Oplots ? Where does that fit !

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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> Why would anyone prefer saving on logistics and training costs? I'm sure such ideas escape fake Kashmiri Bhattas and their need to wear new Raybans(chinese) and show of their Hardley Davidsons(175cc) every year.



 

If saving on training and logistic costs were the main reason; why not build more AK-1s or expedite the design and production of further AK models !

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## Muhammad Omar

SO we going for 2 tanks ?? 1 to replace T-80 and 1 for other? 

so it's AK T-84 And 1 more tanks in future??? which will be in service of PA


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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> If saving on training and logistic costs were the main reason; why not build more AK-1s or expedite the design and production of further AK models !



The AK takes a longer time to produce and develop. In addition, the cost of redesigning the AK into a tank that would match the Oplot vs the time it would take to induct makes it prohibitive. The AK project for all its success has also been plagued by needless delays and QC issues which took a lot of time to resolve.

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## VelocuR

Unfortunately it is very disappointed that Pakistan just has very *LIMITED* options for our tanks and Pakistan Navy aside JF-17. India is clearly won in some fields, Pakistan is very slowly way behind next ten years no doubt.

Al-Khalid Tanks (only *450* for last 13 years), does this means we just exciting today that something new unknown tank so called T-84 Oplet from unstable Ukraine crisis?

Pakistan should seek permission from Russia before ordering junk tanks and some engines from Ukraine after Siberia's T-55 rumors and some old used F-16 from Jordan.

In my opinion, indeed very poor choice, we should go ahead more reliable with China's MT3000 or Turkey's Altay or discuss with Uncle Sam's Abraham tanks if necessary. Russia is even willing to sell their tanks but Pakistan doesn't make sense at all.


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## SQ8

VelocuR said:


> Unfortunately it is very disappointed that Pakistan just has very *LIMITED* options for our tanks and Pakistan Navy aside JF-17. India is clearly won in some fields, Pakistan is very slowly way behind next ten years no doubt.
> 
> Al-Khalid Tanks (only *450* for last 13 years), does this means we just exciting today that something new unknown tank so called T-84 Oplet from unstable Ukraine crisis?
> 
> Pakistan should seek permission from Russia before ordering junk tanks and some engines from Ukraine after Siberia's T-55 rumors and some old used F-16 from Jordan.
> 
> In my opinion, indeed very poor choice, we should go ahead more reliable with China's MT3000 or Turkey's Altay or discuss with Uncle Sam's Abraham tanks if necessary. Russia is even willing to sell their tanks but Pakistan doesn't make sense at all.



What authoratitve sources do you have that state that the Ukranian engines are Junk?

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## kaonalpha

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So what happens to Armata or MS if we buy Oplots ? Where does that fit !



why are you under the impression that we will get Armata. 

Second no one on this thread have given a solid reason or understood what we are trying to do.

*GET A REASONABLE PRICE. Hence the large number of trials. 

Altay will never come we can't afford it. Setting up the entire logistical support will take us years.

We require something which is affordable and resilient. And cost effective*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

VelocuR said:


> Unfortunately it is very disappointed that Pakistan just has very *LIMITED* options for our tanks and Pakistan Navy aside JF-17. India is clearly won in some fields, Pakistan is very slowly way behind next ten years no doubt.
> 
> Al-Khalid Tanks (only *450* for last 13 years), does this means we just exciting today that something new unknown tank so called T-84 Oplet from unstable Ukraine crisis?
> 
> Pakistan should seek permission from Russia before ordering junk tanks and some engines from Ukraine after Siberia's T-55 rumors and some old used F-16 from Jordan.
> 
> In my opinion, indeed very poor choice, we should go ahead more reliable with China's MT3000 or Turkey's Altay or discuss with Uncle Sam's Abraham tanks if necessary. Russia is even willing to sell their tanks but Pakistan doesn't make sense at all.




MBT-3000 offers nothing over AK-I. Apart from maybe more protection with its additional armour.... Altay not in serial production but it's subsystems with equip AK.

Again we need tanks to replace our fleet of old Type-59s,62s and 85s ... You can't produce so many AKs .. Better buy a tank which offers logistic and training similarity to an existing platform... Which Oplot does with our UDs!

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## rockstar08

Oscar said:


> What authoratitve sources do you have that state that the Ukranian engines are Junk?



if we have funds issues than why not save and invest in upcoming projects like Altay ? cant turks make Altay with a bit less weight , like modification we see in Air crafts and all ??
this Tank .... not even a single reputed country used it .. why are we even buying this ?


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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> The AK takes a longer time to produce and develop. In addition, the cost of redesigning the AK into a tank that would match the Oplot vs the time it would take to induct makes it prohibitive. The AK project for all its success has also been plagued by needless delays and QC issues which took a lot of time to resolve.



I thought the AK was already better than the T-90 MS....isn't the Oplot of similar capabilities ? 

I don't know an AK from a Type 59 but what I was reading on this forum, apparently from credible posters, suggested that the AK was better than anything that the Indians had and there wasn't any hurry in going overboard with acquisitions and whatnot on our because our Armored Corp already had one-up on the Indians ! 

Now explain it simply as if you were explaining it to a Neanderthal (even though I'm not Bhopali  ) - What exactly does the Oplot offer that the AK, the AK 1, and the T-80 UDs don't already offer us !

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## WaLeEdK2

How many is PA planning on obtaining?


----------



## A.M.

Are we talking about the same one used by the Thai army here?

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## VelocuR

Oscar said:


> What authoratitve sources do you have that state that the Ukranian engines are Junk?



I don't know any sources, but I can see Ukraine doesn't have great qualities in tanks, too many junks in their tank graveguard. 
















Ukraine's abandoned tank graveyard could be needed if tensions with Russia escalate | Daily Mail Online


Is this Pakistan going to do business with Ukraine??? I know these are not T-84 oplots in these pictures but just example.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> MBT-3000 offers nothing over AK-I. Apart from maybe more protection with its additional armour.... Altay not in serial production but it's subsystems with equip AK.
> 
> Again we need tanks to replace our fleet of old Type-59s,62s and 85s ... You can't produce so many AKs .. Better buy a tank which offers logistic and training similarity to an existing platform... Which Oplot does with our UDs!



How do we know MBT-3000 is nothing like AK-1? Do we learn lesson from our joint JF-17 with China?

Okay, let Pakistan import anything for whatever reasons in low cost prices and excellent junks machines. 

Save cost, buy All-in-One deal. That's fine.


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## Tipu7

Oscar said:


> It was going to come earlier(along with other requirements) if not for the Ukrainian crisis.


Don't u think that crisis in Ukarine can destabalize this deal??


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## DESERT FIGHTER

VelocuR said:


> I don't know any sources, but I can see Ukraine doesn't have great qualities in tanks, too many junks in their tank graveguard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ukraine's abandoned tank graveyard could be needed if tensions with Russia escalate | Daily Mail Online
> 
> 
> Is this Pakistan going to do business with Ukraine??? I know these are not T-84 oplots in these pictures but just example.
> 
> 
> 
> How do we know MBT-3000 is nothing like AK-1? Do we learn lesson from our joint JF-17 with China?
> 
> Okay, let Pakistan import anything for whatever reasons in low cost prices and excellent junks machines.
> 
> Save cost, buy All-in-One deal. That's fine.



You are quiet dumb ...



Tipu7 said:


> Don't u think that crisis in Ukarine can destabalize this deal??


How ? Oplots is a purely ukranian machine .. The factory isn't situated in rebel held areas... They need money and we need tabks... Win win !



Muhammad Omar said:


> SO we going for 2 tanks ?? 1 to replace T-80 and 1 for other?
> 
> so it's AK T-84 And 1 more tanks in future??? which will be in service of PA


AK Series
Oplots
UDs

Maybe AZs

The types will be phased out.

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## New Resolve

If Ukarine is offering TOT and others are not then go with Ukraine.


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## Indus Falcon

@kaonalpha @fatman17 @DESERT FIGHTER Any idea what would be the cost per unit?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Indus Falcon said:


> @kaonalpha @fatman17 @DESERT FIGHTER Any idea what would be the cost per unit?


My "guess" around 6 million.

Ukraine Set to Massively Increase Tank Production as Conflict Heats Up | Business | The Moscow Times


Ukranians are desperate to sell these to support their own military ... Pak needs tanks To replace types- Oplots fit the bill.. UD--> Oplot ...

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## VelocuR

*Current operators*






Ukraine
The Ukrainian Ground Forces has *10* T-84 Oplot-Ms in service.[_citation needed_]





Thailand
The Royal Thai Army has *5* T-84 Oplot-M in service.[13] In March 2011, the Royal Thai Army placed an order for 49 T-84s to replace its fleet of aging M41A3 Walker Bulldog light tanks. Up to 200 tanks may eventually be acquired. However, the Royal Thai Army had yet to make an official announcement.[14][15] The government had just approved 7.155 billion baht to purchase the first 49 Oplot tanks to be assigned to several units: the 2nd cavalry battalion (Royal Guard at Fort Chakrabongse, Prachinburi), the 4th cavalry battalion (Royal Guard at Kiakkai, Bangkok), the 8th cavalry battalion (Fort Suranari, Nakhon Ratchasima), and the 9th cavalry battalion (Fort Ekathotsarot, Phitsanuloke).[16][17][18] The first T-84 Oplot will be delivered to be tested at Cavalry Center at Fort Adisorn, Saraburi in mid-2013 and during the official procurement. The factory in Ukraine had offered the extra 5 T-84 Oplot in addition to the first 49 Oplot tanks.[19][20] The Oplot-M 5 to be delivered on 5 February 2014, 20 will deliver in July 2014.[21]

*Potential sales*





Peru
In 2009, Peru reportedly tested the Oplot tank, but t*he government of Alan Garcia later decided to acquire test examples of the Chinese MBT-2000 in late 2010, only to have the government of his successor,* Ollanta Humala, abandon the purchase in early 2012 to seek other alternatives.[22][23] In May 2013, the T-84 was reported to be part of comparative tests to be conducted by Peru. The T-84 competed against the T-90S, the M1A1 Abrams, the Leopard 2A4 and A6, and the T-64 also offered by Ukraine.[24] By September 2013, only the T-84, T-90S, Russian T-80, and M1A1 Abrams were still competing.[25]

*Lost sales*





Bangladesh
In 2007 the Bangladesh Army began negotiations for the procurement of 76 T-84 Yatagan tanks in the first batch. The Bangladesh Army intends to induct a substantial number of Yatagans (200 to 300) over the next several years as part of its third generation main battle tank procurement program.[26] *However, Bangladesh finally has decided to buy 44 MBT-2000 in 2011.[27]*





Azerbaijan
In January 2011, *Azerbaijan showed interest in the Oplot main battle tank. The Defense Ministry of Ukraine has long been holding negotiations on this issue.[28] In June 2013, it has been made public that Azerbaijan had instead purchased 100 RussianT-90 tanks,[29] in a series of rearmament deals worth $4 billion with Russia.*

T-84 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Blue Marlin

VelocuR said:


> *Current operators*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ukraine
> The Ukrainian Ground Forces has *10* T-84 Oplot-Ms in service.[_citation needed_]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thailand
> The Royal Thai Army has *5* T-84 Oplot-M in service.[13] In March 2011, the Royal Thai Army placed an order for 49 T-84s to replace its fleet of aging M41A3 Walker Bulldog light tanks. Up to 200 tanks may eventually be acquired. However, the Royal Thai Army had yet to make an official announcement.[14][15] The government had just approved 7.155 billion baht to purchase the first 49 Oplot tanks to be assigned to several units: the 2nd cavalry battalion (Royal Guard at Fort Chakrabongse, Prachinburi), the 4th cavalry battalion (Royal Guard at Kiakkai, Bangkok), the 8th cavalry battalion (Fort Suranari, Nakhon Ratchasima), and the 9th cavalry battalion (Fort Ekathotsarot, Phitsanuloke).[16][17][18] The first T-84 Oplot will be delivered to be tested at Cavalry Center at Fort Adisorn, Saraburi in mid-2013 and during the official procurement. The factory in Ukraine had offered the extra 5 T-84 Oplot in addition to the first 49 Oplot tanks.[19][20] The Oplot-M 5 to be delivered on 5 February 2014, 20 will deliver in July 2014.[21]
> 
> *Potential sales*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peru
> In 2009, Peru reportedly tested the Oplot tank, but t*he government of Alan Garcia later decided to acquire test examples of the Chinese MBT-2000 in late 2010, only to have the government of his successor,* Ollanta Humala, abandon the purchase in early 2012 to seek other alternatives.[22][23] In May 2013, the T-84 was reported to be part of comparative tests to be conducted by Peru. The T-84 competed against the T-90S, the M1A1 Abrams, the Leopard 2A4 and A6, and the T-64 also offered by Ukraine.[24] By September 2013, only the T-84, T-90S, Russian T-80, and M1A1 Abrams were still competing.[25]
> 
> *Lost sales*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bangladesh
> In 2007 the Bangladesh Army began negotiations for the procurement of 76 T-84 Yatagan tanks in the first batch. The Bangladesh Army intends to induct a substantial number of Yatagans (200 to 300) over the next several years as part of its third generation main battle tank procurement program.[26] *However, Bangladesh finally has decided to buy 44 MBT-2000 in 2011.[27]*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Azerbaijan
> In January 2011, *Azerbaijan showed interest in the Oplot main battle tank. The Defense Ministry of Ukraine has long been holding negotiations on this issue.[28] In June 2013, it has been made public that Azerbaijan had instead purchased 100 RussianT-90 tanks,[29] in a series of rearmament deals worth $4 billion with Russia.*
> 
> T-84 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


don't copy from wikipedia you your head and don't use copy and paste.


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## Desert Fox

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Ukraine has been an old partner -- Il-78s,Help with AK program,*Kombat ATGMs*,UDs etc etc.


Bro is there a reliable source that says we have Kombat ATGM's??

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## Darth Vader

Armstrong said:


> Oplot offer that the AK, the AK 1, and the T-80 UDs don't already offer us


It Will save time , Pak will get it earlier , easy maintenance , infrastructure wont need dramatic changes , will be operational in less time .e.g Pak bought f16 from Jordan they could have waited for jf 17 they had money , they bought those birds , what happened , it caught India by surprise , in a giff their was a operational squander of F 16 in Pak ,
These Projects take Time , Pakistan isn't Russia neither U.S where they can run factories to manufacture different weapons and don't get delays , 
In War timing is everything

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## Amaa'n

Edited.

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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Good news......finally i can post some pics from my side ......MBT-3000 that we received back in Dec --- @kaonalpha i hope you won't mind me posting these
> @Zarvan ---enjoy
> View attachment 236852
> View attachment 236853
> View attachment 236854
> View attachment 236855
> View attachment 236856
> View attachment 236857


Sad it failed tests by the way if we have chosen T-84 Oplot M than Why two more Tanks are coming in December to be tested which include latest T-90 version ? @kaonalpha


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## RAMPAGE

Bhaio, mai nai tou is tank ko pass kar dia hey 

P.S. Bari mushkil sai aap logon kai liay different sources sai 360° HD pics jama ki hain is liay + rating tou banti hai. 

Enjoy!

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## RAMPAGE

Incoming!












@DESERT FIGHTER @Dazzler @Horus @Hyperion @balixd @Zarvan

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## MastanKhan

Gufi said:


> I think I read that the engine is not local but an import, I am not sure about this, if you could tell me what the case is? because any engine originating from western entities would be worrisome for Pakistan as sanctions have crippled our armed forces at vital times before.



Hi,

What did you mean by local engine if I may ask!

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## RAMPAGE

balixd said:


> Good news......finally i can post some pics from my side ......MBT-3000 that we received back in Dec --- @kaonalpha i hope you won't mind me posting these
> @Zarvan ---enjoy
> View attachment 236852
> View attachment 236853
> View attachment 236854
> View attachment 236855
> View attachment 236856
> View attachment 236857


Best pics of VT-4 on the internet. A treat it was, thanks.


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## MastanKhan

FunkyGen said:


> we can manufacture them but not upto the quality level as let's say the russians, or the ukrainians for that matter...
> i believe we did wish that the chinese would develop something more suitable but seeing their tank i felt like they didn't put a whole lot attention to their tank development...
> ukrainian r&d in this sector is without any doubt superior to ours and since we already operate their tanks anyways we know em pretty well...
> surprisingly even though the chief didn't even visit ukraine, it seems that his trips certainly don't revolve around munitions rather something else...



Hi,

The possible reason being that china is not concerned about an armored invasion---. Its primary concern is naval and air strikes.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> Best pics of VT-4 on the internet. A treat it was, thanks.


If Pakistan has chosen T-84 Oplot M Why two more Tanks are coming in December to be tested ?


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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> If Pakistan has chosen T-84 Oplot M Why two more Tanks are coming in December to be tested ?


What tanks? Says who?


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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> What tanks? Says who?


----------



## Viper0011.

Zarvan said:


> If Pakistan has chosen T-84 Oplot M Why two more Tanks are coming in December to be tested ?



It won't be the T-84 as the main battle tank. It'll be both, T-84 and MBT-3000. These will become main two tier platform for the Pak Army in the future, supplemented by AK I and II's. AK I will become the future T-59 of Pakistan. The remainder of the tanks like T-59's and T-70+, are now considered much older and actually obsolete so these will start to be retired as the new ones and AK's are produced in numbers, and of course as the Pakistani economy grows and more $$$$ coming in.

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## Zarvan

This is one of them other name I don't know @balixd

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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> -


???


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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> I thought the AK was already better than the T-90 MS....isn't the Oplot of similar capabilities ?
> 
> I don't know an AK from a Type 59 but what I was reading on this forum, apparently from credible posters, suggested that the AK was better than anything that the Indians had and there wasn't any hurry in going overboard with acquisitions and whatnot on our because our Armored Corp already had one-up on the Indians !
> 
> Now explain it simply as if you were explaining it to a Neanderthal (even though I'm not Bhopali  ) - What exactly does the Oplot offer that the AK, the AK 1, and the T-80 UDs don't already offer us !



2 things. 

1.The T-84(or any new purchase since this is not official) is better than the T-80UDs. In addition, it has better armour on it as compared to anything the Indians field in active service. 

2. Procurement time, i.e time to get the tanks into service vs the Time it would take to design, set up assembly lines and test further AK developments vis-a-vis a direct purchase.

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## Zarvan

Viper0011. said:


> It won't be the T-84 as the main battle tank. It'll be both, T-84 and MBT-3000. These will become main two tier platform for the Pak Army in the future, supplemented by AK I and II's. AK I will become the future T-59 of Pakistan. The remainder of the tanks like T-59's and T-70+, are now considered much older and actually obsolete so these will start to be retired as the new ones and AK's are produced in numbers, and of course as the Pakistani economy grows and more $$$$ coming in.


MBT-3000 is pretty much rejected may be latest model of T-90 can come which can be replacement for AL Zarrar and Type 69 and Type 85



Oscar said:


> 2 things.
> 
> 1.The T-84(or any new purchase since this is not official) is better than the T-80UDs. In addition, it has better armour on it as compared to anything the Indians field in active service.
> 
> 2. Procurement time, i.e time to get the tanks into service vs the Time it would take to design, set up assembly lines and test further AK developments vis-a-vis a direct purchase.


Sir if we have chosen T-84 Oplot M Why two other Tanks are coming in December to be tested ?


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## Viper0011.

Zarvan said:


> MBT-3000 is pretty much rejected may be latest model of T-90 can come which can be replacement for AL Zarrar and Type 69 and Type 85



May be. But you won't have T-84 Oplot as PA's main MBT in serious numbers.....it'll have a counter part. Potentially a heavier tank.


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## SQ8

VelocuR said:


> I don't know any sources, but I can see Ukraine doesn't have great qualities in tanks, too many junks in their tank graveguard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ukraine's abandoned tank graveyard could be needed if tensions with Russia escalate | Daily Mail Online
> 
> 
> Is this Pakistan going to do business with Ukraine??? I know these are not T-84 oplots in these pictures but just example.
> 
> 
> 
> How do we know MBT-3000 is nothing like AK-1? Do we learn lesson from our joint JF-17 with China?
> 
> Okay, let Pakistan import anything for whatever reasons in low cost prices and excellent junks machines.
> 
> Save cost, buy All-in-One deal. That's fine.



So your conclusion is based on the idea that the cash strapped ukranian military which cannot maintain its otherwise excellent fleet somehow reflects on the overall quality of their tanks?

That is like suggesting that somehow the hundreds of ferraris, lambos, mercs and bmws that were abandoned in Dubai after the crash of their real estate market and ended up as junk somehow reflects on Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes as makers of poor quality cars. 

Please refrain from commenting before you actually read on the subject.

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## MastanKhan

kaonalpha said:


> why are you under the impression that we will get Armata.
> 
> Second no one on this thread have given a solid reason or understood what we are trying to do.
> 
> *GET A REASONABLE PRICE. Hence the large number of trials.
> 
> Altay will never come we can't afford it. Setting up the entire logistical support will take us years.
> 
> We require something which is affordable and resilient. And cost effective*



Hi,

Thank you for your post---. People don't understand the un-written motto of Pakistan's military----best bang for the buck at a reasonable price---and then utilize its capabilities to the maximum with better training.

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## SQ8

rockstar08 said:


> if we have funds issues than why not save and invest in upcoming projects like Altay ? cant turks make Altay with a bit less weight , like modification we see in Air crafts and all ??
> this Tank .... not even a single reputed country used it .. why are we even buying this ?



*Time is also a cost. *



Zarvan said:


> Sir if we have chosen T-84 Oplot M Why two other Tanks are coming in December to be tested ?



Unless a news comes via official sources, the T-84 has not been chosen yet although it is a favourite.

The other competitors will come to be pitted against the T-84 and see if they do best vis-a-vis costs.

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## waz

We'll wait for the official word. As I understand that this will replace part of the tank fleet and other machines are being considered?

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 236871
> 
> This is one of them other name I don't know @balixd


who told you that two more Tanks will be coming in December? I have a hard time believing that.....unless there is a limitation on number of Tanks that will be sold too us or the financial constraint, I don't see why would we test another platform....



Zarvan said:


> View attachment 236871
> 
> This is one of them other name I don't know @balixd


let me try to find that out....but don't expect a confirmation from me for next few months or till trails for those new tanks are done

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## Zarvan

waz said:


> We'll wait for the official word. As I understand that this will replace part of the tank fleet and other machines are being considered?





balixd said:


> who told you that two more Tanks will be coming in December? I have a hard time believing that.....unless there is a limitation on number of Tanks that will be sold too us or the financial constraint, I don't see why would we test another platform....
> 
> 
> let me try to find that out....but don't expect a confirmation from me for next few months or till trails for those new tanks are done


@kaonalpha and one other member told this and what is the status of AL Khalid II ?


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## HAIDER

From inside
























Double click this image and enjoy this pic





First Thai T84 M, where for some reason Thai deal for chinese evap over T96 deal and bought this tank landed recently.,

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## Rajput_Pakistani

1. Pakistan has a border to defend starting from semi mountain area of Jammu-Sialkot to plains and fields of Lahore-Kasur, River deltas of Sutluj-Bias to the deserts of Bahwalpur-Thar and arid lands of Sindh border. That explains why we can't rely on single model tank.
2. Germans are World leaders in engine technology, but their engine failed in temperatures of Bahawalpur desert. Hence Ukrainian engine was selected for AKs. 
3. M1 failed in trails during Zia times. These tanks were top-notch but were design to counter Soviet invasion of Europe. It was suitable for cold, lush green fields of Europe but failed in desert condition. American learned that too while fielding it in Gulf war. Tiny sand particles damaged the expensive blades of its jet turbine engine. There is a reason, why Pakistan opts for diesel engine for its tanks.
4. Some prefer protection over mobility and other choose mobility to compromise little protection. Who knows what PA doctrine is?
5. If you are facing an enemy, who always has enjoyed superior numbers. The numbers which have saved the day for her many times in the past. Whenever she has find herself in trouble, she diluted the threat by opening up new fronts. Surely, someone in hire ups have learned from history that numbers are more important (JF17s are another example). Why we should buy an expensive Turk tank and not 2 Ukrainians ones?

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## tarrar

The tank looks good. Russians & Ukrainians surely know how to make tanks.


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## Mustang06

What a beast!
Congrats!!


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## VelocuR

Oscar said:


> So your conclusion is based on the idea that the cash strapped ukranian military which cannot maintain its otherwise excellent fleet somehow reflects on the overall quality of their tanks?
> 
> That is like suggesting that somehow the hundreds of ferraris, lambos, mercs and bmws that were abandoned in Dubai after the crash of their real estate market and ended up as junk somehow reflects on Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes as makers of poor quality cars.
> 
> Please refrain from commenting before you actually read on the subject.



Point taken, I rather Pakistan should choose Russian tanks than Ukraine. Why is that? Basically Pakistan should work closer with Russia in defence cooperation. I know we have imported some of tanks technology from Ukraine in the past but I would be thrilled Russia would sell T-90MS to Pakistan. 

Russia has tried their best selling, *T-90MS* has everything Pakistan is looking more than T-84 Oplot features. Otherwise India would be fortunate to grab this tank that will likely to chase T-84 Oplot all nights and morning. Game over!





















Look like Pakistan decide not to choose *MBT-3000* from China, it also means, *MBT-2000 via Al-Khalid* is totally failures, obviously 450 of 13 years. That's my opinion no worry.

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## black-hawk_101

kaonalpha said:


> View attachment 236795
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 236796
> View attachment 236797
> 
> 
> The oplot M has been considerd over the MBT 3000. It is official that Pakistan will not pursue the MB-3000
> 
> Certain change will be made.Allow me to further explain. The Ukrainians have offered the tank a standard version.
> 
> Our demand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus Demand of local manufacturing of spare parts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I say local yes I say with confidance that we have demanded that 60% of the components be made in Pakistan.



So after AKII army will be producing t84s.



kaonalpha said:


> You expect a link this early. Please the reason I uploaded the above picss are because they have overcome the trials In Bhawalpur. The MBT-3000 failed. Plus order from above not to encourage chinese at all.


PA has chance to sell AK1s to BDs and even the AK2 prototype which is another Chinese version to BDs.


----------



## Donatello

@Oscar @Dazzler 
Does this mean the MBT3000 is not in the running anymore?
How many T-84s is Pakistan expected to procure and are they replacements for T-80s or addition to the existing tank stocks?
Seems like a lot of tank types will be in service.

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## Shabi1

Here's what I understand

The T-80/84 series has been generally superior to the T-90 series in armor and performance. T-90 (T-72 and T80 cross) was developed because T-80 was too expensive to induct and the T-80 manufacturing was in Ukraine. Russia incorporated some T-80 features on the T-72 and rebranded it T-90 as a marketing gimmick instead of using the T-72 upgrade designation. After parting with Soviet Union, Ukrains 100% locally made tanks were designated T-80UD/T-84

Al-Khalid is a great tank and Pakistan looking for another alternative doesnt undermine it. Al-Khalid-2 was supposed to be a newly designed tank but seems PA has decided to look for a alternative because of design limitations and save development time. Al-Khalid 1 project will likely continue with upgrades, its still one hell of a tank.

MBT-3000 was a modernized tank developed for export but with some corner cuts to make it more attractive for export. Design is likely very similar to what HIT was working for Al-Khalid-2, even if selected will need heavy modifications to meet Pakistan requirements. Pakistan prefers Ukrainian engines since they've proven time and again to give excellent performance in Pakistan's hot deserts.

Which ever tank is selected will get the Al-Haider designation since it will be heavily customized and get eventual local manufacturing.

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## waz

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Why we should buy an expensive Turk tank and not 2 Ukrainians ones?



Expense isn't an issue and the price range is broadly comparable I.e. around 5.5 million dollars.
The second reason is quality. The Altay is far superior to anything the Ukranians have, there are quite a few detailed write ups on tank forums, written by current and ex tankers outlining this. The L-55 gun on the Altay, which is also operational on the newest Leopards 2's should be reason enough to go for this tank.
Thirdly Turkey is the cloeset ally we have, bar China and we shouldn't have any issues with transfer of tech, supplies etc.
As others have mentioned this tank may be a replacement for part of the fleet, not all of it. Yes the budget is important but going to war on the cheap is a disaster, that will result in deaths and losses in the battle field. It's the age of tech.

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## Spectre

Shabi1 said:


> Here's what I understand
> 
> The T-80/84 series has been generally superior to the T-90 series in armor and performance. T-90 (T-72 and T80 cross) was developed because T-80 was too expensive to induct and the T-80 manufacturing was in Ukraine. Russia incorporated some T-80 features on the T-72 and rebranded it T-90 as a marketing gimmick instead of using the T-72 upgrade designation. After parting with Soviet Union, Ukrains 100% locally made tanks were designated T-80UD/T-84.



Your comments are unwarranted. Both the tanks had different mission profiles.

This is a second hand information, may be some more knowledgeable members would be able to verify it.

The T-64-> T-80 evolution is like a lot of things Russian, an outgrowth of Russian military politics as well as Red Army tradition. The Russians back when they were the Soviets had TWO complimentary tank design bureaus and two design requirements. The Leningrad crowd specialized in complex "breakthrough" tanks while the Uralvagonzavod designed the line of simple "cruiser" attrition warfare tanks. 

The result is that we have two tanks that share a lot of superficial features but designed for ostensibly very different missions. As is the trend of the T-34>T-55>T-62>T-72 which is a throwaway tank-designed mainly for general comb and mainly infantry support, the T-80 traces its lineage to a redesign for a a tank that was to fill the operations niche left by the IS and T-10 series of heavy assault tanks.

The T-90 is the improved variant of the '80 once again with most of the bugs ironed out. 

That is the basic difference between the two T series tanks, as to which is better, that depends solely upon the crews within the mbt and how well they are drilled.


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## Inception-06

Ukraine Tanks are very cheap at the moment, we already have the infrastructure for this ukraine Tanks ! (T-80 UD, Alkhalid plus Type-85 are using same ukraine made engines).



kaonalpha said:


> why are you under the impression that we will get Armata.
> 
> Second no one on this thread have given a solid reason or understood what we are trying to do.
> 
> *GET A REASONABLE PRICE. Hence the large number of trials.
> 
> Altay will never come we can't afford it. Setting up the entire logistical support will take us years.
> 
> We require something which is affordable and resilient. And cost effective*




I did know all the solid reasons ! But wanted see first the kidz and indians playing in the garden, sometimes you will have more enjoyment in your life, when you sit in your house and look out from the window in the garden !

I am happy that we are buying the T-84 Oplot, its like the F-16 with the PAF !


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## Zarvan

VelocuR said:


> Point taken, I rather Pakistan should choose Russian tanks than Ukraine. Why is that? Basically Pakistan should work closer with Russia in defence cooperation. I know we have imported some of tanks technology from Ukraine in the past but I would be thrilled Russia would sell T-90MS to Pakistan.
> 
> Russia has tried their best selling, *T-90MS* has everything Pakistan is looking more than T-84 Oplot features. Otherwise India would be fortunate to grab this tank that will likely to chase T-84 Oplot all nights and morning. Game over!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look like Pakistan decide not to choose *MBT-3000* from China, it also means, *MBT-2000 via Al-Khalid* is totally failures, obviously 450 of 13 years. That's my opinion no worry.


This Tank doesn't even come close Mr. T-84 Oplot M is more advanced Tank. I can see Tank only as replacement for AL ZARRAR and Type 69 and T-85


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## Inception-06

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> 1. Pakistan has a border to defend starting from semi mountain area of Jammu-Sialkot to plains and fields of Lahore-Kasur, River deltas of Sutluj-Bias to the deserts of Bahwalpur-Thar and arid lands of Sindh border. That explains why we can't rely on single model tank.
> 2. Germans are World leaders in engine technology, but their engine failed in temperatures of Bahawalpur desert. Hence Ukrainian engine was selected for AKs.
> 3. M1 failed in trails during Zia times. These tanks were top-notch but were design to counter Soviet invasion of Europe. It was suitable for cold, lush green fields of Europe but failed in desert condition. American learned that too while fielding it in Gulf war. Tiny sand particles damaged the expensive blades of its jet turbine engine. There is a reason, why Pakistan opts for diesel engine for its tanks.
> 4. Some prefer protection over mobility and other choose mobility to compromise little protection. Who knows what PA doctrine is?
> 5. If you are facing an enemy, who always has enjoyed superior numbers. The numbers which have saved the day for her many times in the past. Whenever she has find herself in trouble, she diluted the threat by opening up new fronts. Surely, someone in hire ups have learned from history that numbers are more important (JF17s are another example). Why we should buy an expensive Turk tank and not 2 Ukrainians ones?




I was waiting for this very fine and clear post, thx, regards !

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## Audio

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I doubt that very much.. China doesn't hold any preference or authority .. We buy from them due to several factors .. Soft loans,TOT etc.
> 
> Russia not really we are getting Mi-35s from them and they have already offered us SAMs and according to recent news Su-35s...
> 
> Ukraine has been an old partner -- Il-78s,Help with AK program,Kombat ATGMs,UDs etc etc.



Wanted to write a more detailed reply, but in the end i decided it's not worth it as it would lead to pointless bickering...

I will just leave you with the notion that Kharkov is just across the border where the shelling happens and from the iirc 50 or something tanks for Thai army from a few years ago, only 5 are in operation....make your own conclusions.

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## Areesh

That Guy said:


> Do I win a prise?

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## CHI RULES

waz said:


> I agree. In this case I don't see much room for Ukraine. I think Turkey has the most viable option and is arguably the best machine.


Sir why do u think turks have better chance now as perhaps Pak has already preferred T84 OPLOT M for present?
Further Atlay is in development phase we may integrate some of it's tech on our homegrown tanks as we did in the past but due to cost factors/foreign parts odds are against Atlay.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

kaonalpha said:


> As we are no longer going to take chinses tanks. Because of certain kickback issues.
> 1500 hp


Engine manufacturing is given to Pakistan in the 60% ?


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## CHI RULES

cabatli_53 said:


> Bro, Being Heavier is the choice of brain team since they believe on benefits of heavier tanks compared with 45-50 tonnes equivalents. Israeli Merkava are also following similar ways on developments, since Each blocks of Merkava revealed with additional weight and Finally, They reached around 65 tonnes on MK-4 series(3-5 tonnes additional weight). It is more or less same weight of Altay. I think Heavier tanks will be better for Pakistan as long as They are not used on soft and highly mountainous grounds. IFV's equipped with heavier calbre guns/having less pressure effect under the pallets are more suitable for such mountainous regions.


dear news are their about Pak purchase of T64 upgraded serb tanks for mountainous regions about 282.


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## Rajput_Pakistani

waz said:


> Expense isn't an issue and the price range is broadly comparable I.e. around 5.5 million dollars.
> The second reason is quality. The Altay is far superior to anything the Ukranians have, there are quite a few detailed write ups on tank forums, written by current and ex tankers outlining this. The L-55 gun on the Altay, which is also operational on the newest Leopards 2's should be reason enough to go for this tank.
> Thirdly Turkey is the cloeset ally we have, bar China and we shouldn't have any issues with transfer of tech, supplies etc.
> As others have mentioned this tank may be a replacement for part of the fleet, not all of it. Yes the budget is important but going to war on the cheap is a disaster, that will result in deaths and losses in the battle field. It's the age of tech.


Sir, I do agree with some of the points, you have raised. ALTAY is essentially in a development phase, Its engine is German, we dont know how it will perform in our hot climate. The indigenous Turkish engine development is planned but how it will go ahead in future, no body knows.
Price tag around $6million v/s OPLOT $4.5 million
Currently Ukraine needs money, we may get good discounts on it. Look on bigger picture, we may get complete ToT (including engines) and IFV deal as well.
Turkey's tank is a future thing. Ukraine was the industrial hub of Soviet Union. T series plant was essentially in Ukraine. Ukraine industrial know how in tank design and engine technology is superior to Turks as of now. Lastly if you are placing your bets on ALTAY, then there is no logic of AK2 project.

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## Zarvan

@kaonalpha What is the status of AL KHALID project not the AL KHALIDS we already have the new AL KHALID which was in the making @Icarus @balixd @Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER @PWFI


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## CHI RULES

waz said:


> Expense isn't an issue and the price range is broadly comparable I.e. around 5.5 million dollars.
> The second reason is quality. The Altay is far superior to anything the Ukranians have, there are quite a few detailed write ups on tank forums, written by current and ex tankers outlining this. The L-55 gun on the Altay, which is also operational on the newest Leopards 2's should be reason enough to go for this tank.
> Thirdly Turkey is the cloeset ally we have, bar China and we shouldn't have any issues with transfer of tech, supplies etc.
> As others have mentioned this tank may be a replacement for part of the fleet, not all of it. Yes the budget is important but going to war on the cheap is a disaster, that will result in deaths and losses in the battle field. It's the age of tech.


Dear Sir given specs of T84 OPLOT show that it is certainly much better and quite competitive to modern tanks and in case of local production Pak may further upgrade them so we should not disapprove it totally. Specially Keno Alpha has also explained it more reliable. What happens if any expensive tank with good looking tank fails to move in Pak hot/dusty conditions especially in desert environment.

I believe that Atlay is designed more for mountainous type of area with less dusty environment along with low temperatures. If issue is for Gun barrel we may import it from Turkey.


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## Zarvan

@waz I think lot of inside parts of T-84 Oplot M will be replaced with systems from Turkey


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## Kurlang



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## Mughal-Prince

Kowak said:


> Most of my friends say the same but I prefer girls and weapons



You will find similar tharkies here  add boys as well  just for the sake of taste change 

 to 

Have a nice stay .

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Audio said:


> Wanted to write a more detailed reply, but in the end i decided it's not worth it as it would lead to pointless bickering...
> 
> I will just leave you with the notion that Kharkov is just across the border where the shelling happens and from the iirc 50 or something tanks for Thai army from a few years ago, only 5 are in operation....make your own conclusions.


Ukraine Set to Massively Increase Tank Production as Conflict Heats Up | Business | The Moscow Times

Ukraine Announces increase in tank production – Tank and AFV News

Ukroboronprom wants to increase production tank Oplot


http://en.censor.net.ua/news/323086/ukroboronprom_to_increase_tank_production_by_24_times



L'Ukraine veut augmenter sa production de chars T-84 Oplot à 120 unités par an - Spécial Défense


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## ACE OF THE AIR

graphican said:


> Not sure what's going on, Oplot was never on the radar as a procurement. Not at PDF at least. I don't feel a joy for selecting it yet. Guys tell us more and bring some comparative data on the front.


In the last IDEA's it was put on offer all the media and the pages of PDF are full of it...


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

Malik Alashter said:


> build





Malik Alashter said:


> Thought Pakistan making tanks has the ability to design and build them.


we can if we want to 
but designing and developments costs a lot and our defence industry is under funded
what we have been doing is we get a platform and we modify it with home grown and foreign systems and we built them in HIT

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## Kowak

Mughal-Prince said:


> You will find similar tharkies here  add boys as well  just for the sake of taste change
> 
> to
> 
> Have a nice stay .


Ahah thanks !


----------



## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> @kaonalpha What is the status of AL KHALID project not the AL KHALIDS we already have the new AL KHALID which was in the making @Icarus @balixd @Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER @PWFI


sometime your questions make me think, If I should be shooting myself or not......not everything can be said on forum, if Military wanted the news out they would have released a Press briefing by now......& Bajwa sb giving detailed presentation to the Journos but i dnt see that happening

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Kowak said:


> Maybe it will be strange for you all guys but I hate soccer  just love weapons and martial arts


How about F-1?


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> sometime your questions make me think, If I should be shooting myself or not......not everything can be said on forum, if Military wanted the news out they would have released a Press briefing by now......& Bajwa sb giving detailed presentation to the Journos but i dnt see that happening


T
Pakistan is hiding pretty much all defence procurements and new developments. The new Sniper Gun you told us not Army, that is why I asked this question because even if new AL KHALID comes and becomes part of Army, I hardly doubt that they would ever reveal it.


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## Audio

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Ukraine Set to Massively Increase Tank Production as Conflict Heats Up | Business | The Moscow Times
> 
> Ukraine Announces increase in tank production – Tank and AFV News
> 
> Ukroboronprom wants to increase production tank Oplot
> 
> http://en.censor.net.ua/news/323086/ukroboronprom_to_increase_tank_production_by_24_times
> 
> L'Ukraine veut augmenter sa production de chars T-84 Oplot à 120 unités par an - Spécial Défense



Well, ofcourse a general director of the manufacturer whose country is at war would say they will increase production. It's patriotic, no? Plus, words don't cost a dime which is a specially good deal for a country on IMF lifeline.

Look, Ukrainians talk a lot (goes with propaganda war), are in a war in which they apparently (mentioned in your links) need more tanks. Add in the history of being able to fulfill orders with difficulty...etc etc...

Add on top of that the political pressures associated with SCO membership (you mentioned yourself about Su-35 offer-indicative of Russians trying to pull you into their own sphere-for better or worse) and recent offerings/presentations of J-10 by China, despite afaik being already removed from PAF wish list...

I remain sceptical of this deal. Is ofcourse my opinion only, layman's opinion at that, but it is like it is.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Audio said:


> Well, ofcourse a general director of the manufacturer whose country is at war would say they will increase production. It's patriotic, no? Plus, words don't cost a dime which is a specially good deal for a country on IMF lifeline.
> 
> Look, Ukrainians talk a lot (goes with propaganda war), are in a war in which they apparently (mentioned in your links) need more tanks. Add in the history of being able to fulfill orders with difficulty...etc etc...
> 
> Add on top of that the political pressures associated with SCO membership (you mentioned yourself about Su-35 offer-indicative of Russians trying to pull you into their own sphere-for better or worse) and recent offerings/presentations of J-10 by China, despite afaik being already removed from PAF wish list...
> 
> I remain sceptical of this deal. Is ofcourse my opinion only, layman's opinion at that, but it is like it is.




So the worlds 6th largest army choose a tank that Ukraine can't produce ? (With 60% of it being built in PAK)


Russians got nothing on us .. Ukraine and Russia still are buying and selling stuff to eachother despite war... 


A member posted pics of the MBT-3000 in Pak on the previous pages .. Again they didn't choose it for a good reason.

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## Spectre

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So the worlds 6th largest army choose a tank that Ukraine can't produce ? (With 60% of it being built in PAK)
> 
> 
> Russians got nothing on us .. Ukraine and Russia still are buying and selling stuff to eachother despite war...
> 
> 
> A member posted pics of the MBT-3000 in Pak on the previous pages .. Again they didn't choose it for a good reason.



Can you provide any confirmation link on Russia selling Ukraine Military hardware after the Crimea annexation?

As far as I am aware everything is frozen, Ukraine refused Engines for Russian Frigates that's why they might be coming to India

Russian frigates left without engines prepared for transfer to India | Russia & India Report


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So the worlds 6th largest army choose a tank that Ukraine can't produce ? (With 60% of it being built in PAK)
> 
> 
> Russians got nothing on us .. Ukraine and Russia still are buying and selling stuff to eachother despite war...
> 
> 
> A member posted pics of the MBT-3000 in Pak on the previous pages .. Again they didn't choose it for a good reason.


What is the status of new AL KHALID project ?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Dr. Stranglove said:


> we can if we want to
> but designing and developments costs a lot and our defence industry is under funded
> what we have been doing is we get a platform and we modify it with home grown and foreign systems and we built them in HIT




We have around 2000 Type-59s,62s,85s to replace.


AK project although a success (with it being exported to several countries ..I.E: KSA, export versions to Peru,Myanmar,Bangladesh etc) can't be Chunned in larger numbers -- 50 AKs come off the production line each year.

And we need to replace old obsolete sh1t fast. Ukranians Oplot not only offers us commonality with our existing fleet of UDs,but they are offering us 60% production.... probably cheaper rates,and a nice tank. I doubt anybody woul refuse that.

@Audio. Russian MS was also a contender.



Zarvan said:


> What is the status of new AL KHALID project ?



No idea .. Probably have to wait till 2016... For the AK with 6 major upgrades...


.....



@balixd what were the contenders :

Oplot
MBT-3000
MS

the fourth?

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We have around 2000 Type-59s,62s,85s to replace.
> 
> 
> AK project although a success (with it being exported to several countries ..I.E: KSA, export versions to Peru,Myanmar,Bangladesh etc) can't be Chunned in larger numbers -- 50 AKs come off the production line each year.
> 
> And we need to replace old obsolete sh1t fast. Ukranians Oplot not only offers us commonality with our existing fleet of UDs,but they are offering us 60% production.... probably cheaper rates,and a nice tank. I doubt anybody woul refuse that.
> 
> @Audio. Russian MS was also a contender.
> 
> 
> 
> No idea .. Probably have to wait till 2016.
> 
> @balixd what were the contenders :
> 
> Oplot
> MBT-3000
> MS
> 
> the fourth?


According to @kaonalpha T-90 MS and another T will come in December for testing. Can't say Why


----------



## Audio

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So the worlds 6th largest army choose a tank that Ukraine can't produce ? (With 60% of it being built in PAK)



I cannot answer this question, but i think facts do seem to corroborate what i'm saying no? That they can't make a proper production line.




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Ukraine and Russia still are buying and selling stuff to eachother despite war...



Okay, whatever you say. I don't think they buy and sell much to each other nowadays. If anything, Ukrainians didn't even pay for gas and were completely cut-off from transit gas just recently.




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Russians got nothing on us



My man, when a country joins NATO, it obliges itself to buy notionally NATO standardized equipment, but what that in reality means is, you are paying for membership. Draw parallels with SCO. If you think Russians and Chinese are some altruists, well......



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> A member posted pics of the MBT-3000 in Pak on the previous pages .. Again they didn't choose it for a good reason.



Wouldn't be the first time a second runner was selected on political considerations.

In any case, i won't be posting here anymore, just wanted to express what i think. I will remain a sceptic. But if i'm wrong, more power to you! Tank does look nice indeed.


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## niaz

IMHO we are reading too much into pictures of a single tank. Unless someone with inside link with Pak Army can confirm the choice of T-84 over MBT300. Many questions need to be asked before one puts credence on this news.

1. Why MBT 3000 project has been given up? Is it because it is too expensive, doesn’t meet PA requirement of 21st Century armour or too onerous to produce in Pakistan?

2. How much improvement T-84 Oplot M represents over Al-Khalid-1 and how would it fare against Indian T-90? TOT doesn’t mean much as we are producing all parts of Alkhalid except the power plant which is Ukrainian. Are we going to manufacture KMBD 6TD-2 engines in Pakistan?

3. What about Chinese ZT99 MBT? Is the Ukrainian T-84 Oplot M more cost effective than Alkhalid -1?


Undoubtedly T-84 Oplot M is very capable tank, however on paper T-84 Oplot does not appear to be much of an improvement over Alkhalid -1. It is therefore hard to believe that MBT3000 has been shelved and future Pak Army cavalry units would depend upon Ukrainian tank. 

Should the news turn out to be true; only possible explanation could be that Ukraine being desperately short of money; these tanks have been offered to Pakistan at a price significantly less than that of Alkhalid -1. PA decided to go for it because of the slow pace of the Alkhalid production line.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Audio said:


> I cannot answer this question, but i think facts do seem to corroborate what i'm saying no? That they can't make a proper production line.



and offering 60% production to Pak.



> Okay, whatever you say. I don't think they buy and sell much to each other nowadays. If anything, Ukrainians didn't even pay for gas and were completely cut-off from transit gas just recently.



They actually are getting into JVs .. Recently signed a JV with some country to produce another An series plane.



> My man, when a country joins NATO, it obliges itself to buy notionally NATO standardized equipment, but what that in reality means is, you are paying for membership. Draw parallels with SCO. If you think Russians and Chinese are some altruists, well......



So that means we are bound to buy from Russia or China ? Seriously .. Turkey is a NATO member yet it's getting HQs from China.. india was Russians main customer yet they buying stuff from USA n EU...(despite the fact that they rely on Russia for every thing).

Pak buys what suites it.. We got SH-1s... Aswell as more M-109s from USA.. Apart from evaluating Serbian Noras (these days).

We didn't buy MBT-3000 etx and choose Oplot! 

We went for both Vipers and MI-35s... And are evaluating Z-10s.


That's how the world works.


> Wouldn't be the first time a second runner was selected on political considerations.
> 
> In any case, i won't be posting here anymore, just wanted to express what i think. I will remain a sceptic. But if i'm wrong, more power to you! Tank does look nice indeed.


you don't have too.. It's done.

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## Audio

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> and offering 60% production to Pak.
> 
> 
> 
> They actually are getting into JVs .. Recently signed a JV with some country to produce another An series plane.
> 
> 
> 
> So that means we are bound to buy from Russia or China ? Seriously .. Turkey is a NATO member yet it's getting HQs from China.. india was Russians main customer yet they buying stuff from USA n EU...(despite the fact that they rely on Russia for every thing).
> 
> Pak buys what suites it.. We got SH-1s... Aswell as more M-109s from USA.. Apart from evaluating Serbian Noras (these days).
> 
> We didn't buy MBT-3000 etx and choose Oplot!
> 
> We went for both Vipers and MI-35s... And are evaluating Z-10s.
> 
> 
> That's how the world works.
> 
> you don't have too.. It's done.



Too much patriotism and too little common sense.
Done here, for real now.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

niaz said:


> IMHO we are reading too much into pictures of a single tank. Unless someone with inside link with Pak Army can confirm the choice of T-84 over MBT300. Many questions need to be asked before one puts credence on this news.
> 
> 1. Why MBT 3000 project has been given up? Is it because it is too expensive, doesn’t meet PA requirement of 21st Century armour or too onerous to produce in Pakistan?
> 
> 2. How much improvement T-84 Oplot M represents over Al-Khalid-1 and how would it fare against Indian T-90? TOT doesn’t mean much as we are producing all parts of Alkhalid except the power plant which is Ukrainian. Are we going to manufacture KMBD 6TD-2 engines in Pakistan?
> 
> 3. What about Chinese ZT99 MBT? Is the Ukrainian T-84 Oplot M more cost effective than Alkhalid -1?
> 
> 
> Undoubtedly T-84 Oplot M is very capable tank, however on paper T-84 Oplot does not appear to be much of an improvement over Alkhalid -1. It is therefore hard to believe that MBT3000 has been shelved and future Pak Army cavalry units would depend upon Ukrainian tank.
> 
> Should the news turn out to be true; only possible explanation could be that Ukraine being desperately short of money; these tanks have been offered to Pakistan at a price significantly less than that of Alkhalid -1. PA decided to go for it because of the slow pace of the Alkhalid production line.




MBT-3000 offers not much on AK-I.

Oplot I guess the Ukrainians need $$ and were willing to sell with 60% TOT... Pak went for it .. Coz A) it's excellent tank..2)TOT...3)Cheaper rates....4)Cousin of UD....5)Need tabks to replace older tanks ASAP.



Audio said:


> Too much patriotism and too little common sense. Check up on that HQ-9 deal if this is the measure of your resistance to my assertion.
> 
> Done here, for real now.



SCO isn't NATO.. Nor are its member states obliged to buy specifically from Russ or Chin.

Every country looks for its own interests.


Patriotism not really .. It's a rational and logical operation.. Otherwise we would have been flying J-10s instead of F-16s.... Would have been using PLz-45 SPGs instead of M109A5s ... Chinese howitzers instead of getting Turkish Panters (under tot)... Russian KA 52 instead of Vipers etc etc.

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## Bobby

is it replacement or addition to Al Khalid?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Edit

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## Sulman Badshah

Bobby said:


> is it replacement or addition to Al Khalid?


it is addition .. and replacement of older tanks

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> it is addition .. and replacement of older tanks


Are you sure I mean guessing or have some inside news ?


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## Bilal.

If Oplot M is chosen, can the older T-80UD be rebuilt/upgraded to the same standard? Or Oplot M is basically a new tank and upgrade is not possible.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bilal. said:


> If Oplot M is chosen, can the older T-80UD be rebuilt/upgraded to the same standard? Or Oplot M is basically a new tank and upgrade is not possible.




UDs have already been upgraded... And share many similarities with Oplot including cast turret,gun,FCS etx.. Even AKs gun is based on the KBA-3.

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## Bilal.

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> UDs have already been upgraded... And share many similarities with Oplot including cast turret,gun,FCS etx.. Even AKs gun is based on the KBA-3.



I know some features were upgraded, what I meant was to full Oplot M specs.


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## Icarus

Zarvan said:


> @kaonalpha What is the status of AL KHALID project not the AL KHALIDS we already have the new AL KHALID which was in the making @Icarus @balixd @Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER @PWFI



Development is ongoing, its a project for the longer haul.

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## Zarvan

Icarus said:


> Development is ongoing, its a project for the longer haul.


So the project is not dead that is good news


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## Icarus

Zarvan said:


> So the project is not dead that is good news



Not at all, the MBT-3000 is an important part of the road map for development of AK3.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

This is how our future tank fleet would look like;


AK series:








(OPLOTS with RCS & APS)








UDs:







AZ's (probably with FC):








Icarus said:


> Not at all, the MBT-3000 is an important part of the road map for development of AK3.


AK NG will probably borrow additional armour from MBT-3000.... 

The sub systems (according to HIT officials interview will be developed with a turkey - the same that will equip Altay).



Bilal. said:


> I know some features were upgraded, what I meant was to full Oplot M specs.



Here is the difference between UD & Oplot;






Complete upgrade will not be possible .. Sub systems etc sure.

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## Icarus

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> AK NG will probably borrow additional armour from MBT-3000....
> 
> The sub systems (according to HIT officials interview will be developed with a turkey - the same that will equip Altay).



There's a lot going on at HIT, I guess we will have to wait and see what they finalize.

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## Muhammad Omar

this thread is too much confusing


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## xyxmt

Latest figures are 18%

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## Armstrong

Icarus said:


> There's a lot going on at HIT, I guess we will have to wait and see what they finalize.



Sethi Sahib, we're going for the Oplot ?


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## ali_raza

xyxmt said:


> Latest figures are 18%


of tot??


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## araz

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> and offering 60% production to Pak.
> 
> 
> 
> They actually are getting into JVs .. Recently signed a JV with some country to produce another An series plane.
> 
> 
> 
> So that means we are bound to buy from Russia or China ? Seriously .. Turkey is a NATO member yet it's getting HQs from China.. india was Russians main customer yet they buying stuff from USA n EU...(despite the fact that they rely on Russia for every thing).
> 
> Pak buys what suites it.. We got SH-1s... Aswell as more M-109s from USA.. Apart from evaluating Serbian Noras (these days).
> 
> We didn't buy MBT-3000 etx and choose Oplot!
> 
> We went for both Vipers and MI-35s... And are evaluating Z-10s.
> 
> 
> That's how the world works.
> 
> you don't have too.. It's done.


A question from me. Where will fhe production line go? How will it fare if we are having problems producing AKs. Response would be appreciated. 
Araz


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## Icarus

Armstrong said:


> Sethi Sahib, we're going for the Oplot ?



For the moment it seems so, yes. Its a suitable replacement fro T-59s, T-85s.

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## Armstrong

Icarus said:


> For the moment it seems so, yes. Its a suitable replacement fro T-59s, T-85s.



Janaaab where is the money going to come from ? I thought between the economic downturn, the Operation Zarb-e-Azb and Ukraine's woes (which may mean no credit line) - We're broke !

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## Icarus

Armstrong said:


> Janaaab where is the money going to come from ? I thought between the economic downturn, the Operation Zarb-e-Azb and Ukraine's woes (which may mean no credit line) - We're broke !



We have the money, don't worry. Armoured Officers would gladly give up their salary and an arm to make this happen. If ToT agreements go ahead as planned, we will make this happen no matter what.



araz said:


> A question from me. Where will fhe production line go? How will it fare if we are having problems producing AKs. Response would be appreciated.
> Araz



I think they intend to set up another line at HIT for this, the complex is still working under capacity.

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## Armstrong

Icarus said:


> We have the money, don't worry. Armoured Officers would gladly give up their salary and an arm to make this happen. If ToT agreements go ahead as planned, we will make this happen no matter what.



How many do you think we'd procure ?  

And more importantly - Janaab phir Iftari purrr kub bolaa raheiii hain ?


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## Icarus

Armstrong said:


> How many do you think we'd procure ?
> 
> And more importantly - Janaab phir Iftari purrr kub bolaa raheiii hain ?



I don't even know for sure if its been selected as yet, I had no prior notice of this, I tried getting in touch with someone at AC Dte but being a sunday and all its proving to be difficult. 
Aaj toh janab main khud iftari par ja raha hun.

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## Armstrong

Icarus said:


> Aaj toh janab main khud iftari par ja raha hun.



Sethi Sahib yeh tou seedhaa hii 'No' kar diyaa aaap neiii ! 

Is it because I am Butt ? 

Discrimination....Discrimination ! 

Thoraa khaoon gaa....promise !

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## Dazzler

Just a side note, oplot m will give Pakistan a significant boost over the adversary, something they cannot overcome till they get something like Armata. 

I was told the oplot had an upper hand during trials and MBT 3000 had some issues as usual with engine and transmission, same as with early type-85II had.

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## Spectre

Dazzler said:


> Just a side note, oplot m will give Pakistan a significant boost over the adversary, something they cannot overcome till they get something like Armata.
> 
> I was told the oplot had an upper hand during trials and MBT 3000 had some issues as usual with engine and transmission, same as with early type-85II had.



How does oplot compares with T-90 MS because afaik India signed a USD 1.6 Billion deal for around 350 T-90 MS. 

Just a query without any insinuation


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## Dazzler

blue marlin said:


> it will not materialise because Ukraine is in turmoil. if Pakistan does like the t84 they can add various components on to the mbt-3000 to make it to their standard.
> 
> the mbt 3000 will come with a lower unit price guaranteed delivery. [Ukraine is in trouble it may decide not to send the tanks and use them for it's self in possible desperation] if the t84 comes with a TOT then go for it and don't look back.
> 
> also the pictures in the thread don't mean anything it just shows a pakistani checking the t84, just how pakistan was checking the t129 helicopter. don't count on it. money is a factor, it always is.



U r wrong mate, Ukrainians love their t-64s so much they upgraded 500 of them from the t-80ud sales. Same with recent Thailand order, they sold about 44 and upgraded 100 to BM Bulat standard. No way they r gonna induct any oplots soon till their t-64s simply run out of stock. Which is not gonna happen as they have more than 1000 of them 



Spectre said:


> How does oplot compares with T-90 MS because afaik India signed a USD 1.6 Billion deal for around 350 T-90 MS.
> 
> Just a query without any insinuation



Strictly technical, oplot has an upper hand in several features especially the armour, FCS and engine transmission .

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## Yazp

Well, Aren't the Chinese and Ruskies going to be mad at us?
I mean we're abandoning the Chinese tanks and we're buying from the Ukrainians who are at a de facto war with Russia.


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## Armstrong

Dazzler said:


> Just a side note, oplot m will give Pakistan a significant boost over the adversary, something they cannot overcome till they get something like Armata.
> 
> I was told the oplot had an upper hand during trials and MBT 3000 had some issues as usual with engine and transmission, same as with early type-85II had.



Dazzler Bhai, if you were to tell a layman like me : What exactly does the Oplot offer us that the T-80 UDs and the AK 1s already don't possess ?

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## Yazp

kaonalpha said:


> View attachment 236795
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 236796
> View attachment 236797
> 
> 
> The oplot M has been considerd over the MBT 3000. It is official that Pakistan will not pursue the MB-3000
> 
> Certain change will be made.Allow me to further explain. The Ukrainians have offered the tank a standard version.
> 
> Our demand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus Demand of local manufacturing of spare parts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I say local yes I say with confidance that we have demanded that 60% of the components be made in Pakistan.


Oh man, that is the ugliest tank I have ever seen...

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## cabatli_53

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Sir, I do agree with some of the points, you have raised. ALTAY is essentially in a development phase, Its engine is German, we dont know how it will perform in our hot climate. The indigenous Turkish engine development is planned but how it will go ahead in future, no body knows.
> Price tag around $6million v/s OPLOT $4.5 million
> Currently Ukraine needs money, we may get good discounts on it. Look on bigger picture, we may get complete ToT (including engines) and IFV deal as well.
> Turkey's tank is a future thing. Ukraine was the industrial hub of Soviet Union. T series plant was essentially in Ukraine. Ukraine industrial know how in tank design and engine technology is superior to Turks as of now. Lastly if you are placing your bets on ALTAY, then there is no logic of AK2 project.



Turkish tank is not actually a future thing, just 1-2 years for serial production and Long trial phase are being made to see How It performs. The four prototypes were produced for different trial schedules. MTR for chassis for example, FTR for turrets. Prototypes are being tested on both hot and winter areas for feedbacks. In accordance with informations, The designs are upgraded on PV-1 and PV-2 prototypes.

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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> U r wrong mate, Ukrainians love their t-64s so much they upgraded 500 of them from the t-80ud sales. Same with recent Thailand order, they sold about 44 and upgraded 100 to BM Bulat standard. No way they r gonna induct any oplots soon till their t-64s simply run out of stock. Which is not gonna happen as they have more than 1000 of them
> 
> 
> 
> Strictly technical, oplot has an upper hand in several features especially the armour, FCS and engine transmission .


When should we expect new AK will be revealed ?


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## Blue Marlin

Dazzler said:


> U r wrong mate, Ukrainians love their t-64s so much they upgraded 500 of them from the t-80ud sales. Same with recent Thailand order, they sold about 44 and upgraded 100 to BM Bulat standard. No way they r gonna induct any oplots soon till their t-64s simply run out of stock. Which is not gonna happen as they have more than 1000 of them
> 
> 
> 
> Strictly technical, oplot has an upper hand in several features especially the armour, FCS and engine transmission .


did not no read any thing i wrote? i did not even mention the t64? to point i am making is that the t84 may be a good tank but the current situation in urkraine will affect possible deliveries. and also Pakistan is warming to russia and it would rathe side with russia therewith urkraine. yes i know Pakistan has received a lot of tanks from urkraine[320] the t84 may be a good tank but i am staying firm with what i am saying .
1. either they may buy some t84's of the shelf
2. buy surplus t80's and upgrade then to t84 // or merge idea 1 and 2 together
3. use t84 parts on the mbt 3000 to make it to pakistan's standard. 

also regarding the power the Chinese tank has a 1500hp water cooled engine. but if idea 3 materialises Pakistan will go for the kmdb 6td3 which has 1500 hp as Pakistan is use to having Ukrainian engines in the t80 and the al Khalid


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## razgriz19



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## Blue Marlin

razgriz19 said:


>


nice

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## FunkyGen

@kaonalpha @Dazzler @Oscar @DESERT FIGHTER 
Brothers can i get an explaination on this? 
Does HIT plan to introduce robots in it's plants and if so weren't they present before? thanks in advance...

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## Zarvan

Icarus said:


> I don't even know for sure if its been selected as yet, I had no prior notice of this, I tried getting in touch with someone at AC Dte but being a sunday and all its proving to be difficult.
> Aaj toh janab main khud iftari par ja raha hun.


Than please try to get it confirmed and if its confirmed why two more Tanks are coming for tests in December ?


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## nomi007

T-84 IS too late

actual war horse arrive

Another gift arrived


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## kaonalpha

nomi007 said:


> T-84 IS too late
> 
> actual war horse arrive
> 
> Another gift arrived


You simply copy pasted pictures of mbt 3000 which arrived In december last year 2014 for trials.


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## thrilainmanila

i'll say this again this isn't the answer to the pak armys problems vs india, the pak army need new generation ATGM not 3rd class 1980s HJ-8, they need IFVs, And most importantly they need a proper SAM network, these tanks are just sitting ducks for IAF to take out, without a proper airforce who will support these tanks?

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## salarsikander

thrilainmanila said:


> i'll say this again this isn't the answer to the pak armys problems vs india, the pak army need new generation ATGM not 3rd class 1980s HJ-8, they need IFVs, And most importantly they need a proper SAM network, these tanks are just sitting ducks for IAF to take out, without a proper airforce who will support these tanks?


Hi, 
reported for trolling @Horus 

You mean the dwindling IAF? where sqn levels are dangerously low ? I am sure they pose no threat


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## 帅的一匹

kaonalpha said:


> As we are no longer going to take chinses tanks. Because of certain kickback issues.
> 1500 hp


Kickback? Tell me how much we pay in JF17 deal?

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## Shabi1

Spectre said:


> Your comments are unwarranted. Both the tanks had different mission profiles.
> 
> This is a second hand information, may be some more knowledgeable members would be able to verify it.
> 
> The T-64-> T-80 evolution is like a lot of things Russian, an outgrowth of Russian military politics as well as Red Army tradition. The Russians back when they were the Soviets had TWO complimentary tank design bureaus and two design requirements. The Leningrad crowd specialized in complex "breakthrough" tanks while the Uralvagonzavod designed the line of simple "cruiser" attrition warfare tanks.
> 
> The result is that we have two tanks that share a lot of superficial features but designed for ostensibly very different missions. As is the trend of the T-34>T-55>T-62>T-72 which is a throwaway tank-designed mainly for general comb and mainly infantry support, the T-80 traces its lineage to a redesign for a a tank that was to fill the operations niche left by the IS and T-10 series of heavy assault tanks.
> 
> The T-90 is the improved variant of the '80 once again with most of the bugs ironed out.
> 
> That is the basic difference between the two T series tanks, as to which is better, that depends solely upon the crews within the mbt and how well they are drilled.



Please read the history about why T-90 was made. Not debating T-90 here, there are other posts for that. Since Kontakt-5 ERA armor was later not available to Ukraine they developed their own ERA for further T80U/84s which they claim is now much superior.

"The *T-90* is a Russian third-generationmain battle tank that is essentially a modernisation of the T-72B, incorporating many features of the T-80U (it was originally to be called the T-72BU, later renamed to T-90)................

By 1992, the Russian Ministry of Defence announced that it could no longer afford to manufacture two main battle tanks in parallel.[8] Since both the "quality" T-80U and the cheaper "quantity" T-72B were being built at different plants, and each plant was critical to the economy of its city, the government gave small orders to both. Omsk built five T-80Us and Nizhny Tagil built fifteen T-72s, and both built more in the hopes of winning large export orders. Nizhny Tagil had built a few T-72BAs, T-72Bs upgraded with a third generation add-on explosive reactive armour (ERA) called Kontakt-5, which was already in service on the T-80U.[8]

To further improve the T-72's export prospects and its chances of being selected as Russia's sole production main battle tank, the T-80U's more sophisticated fire control system was also added to produce a vehicle designated T-72BU. The T-90 was developed by the Kartsev-Venediktov Design Bureau at the Uralvagonzavod factory in Nizhny Tagil. The production model is based on the T-72BM, with some added features from the T-80 series.[8]
"

T-90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## kaonalpha

Not you our political parties try to get it via stopping development and demanding a so called fee.

China has always been gracious in extending it's towards us.

Nothing personal but the mbt 3000 has faults. What exactly it will be clear in the coming months. But we might try to use it from a different perspective. 




wanglaokan said:


> Kickback? Tell me how much we pay in JF17 deal?

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## Sulman Badshah

nomi007 said:


> T-84 IS too late
> 
> actual war horse arrive
> 
> Another gift arrived


these images are from december ... and mbt3000 failed in desert test


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## waz

CHI RULES said:


> Sir why do u think turks have better chance now as perhaps Pak has already preferred T84 OPLOT M for present?
> Further Atlay is in development phase we may integrate some of it's tech on our homegrown tanks as we did in the past but due to cost factors/foreign parts odds are against Atlay.



Well bro the OPLOT is only for part of the tank fleet and will probably replace the likes of the type 85 and type 69.
The Altay is in a different league and well past its development phase. It is undergoing trials for the Turkish army and has been very impressive so far. Altay in its later batch will be completely indigenous.

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## Hakan

India already outnumbers pakistan with regard to tanks, they have 1200 good T-90's and they have 2500 T-72's which are better than Pakistan's older chinese based tanks. Now Pakistan is getting more tanks (T-84) that do not have an advantage over the T-90's or at least a significant advantage. Pakistan needs to get some Altays, this is what will give it the edge over India's tanks.

Check out the Greek Tank trials where they compared Leo 2, Abrams, Challenger 2, and T-84 Oplot.

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## rockstar08

Oscar said:


> Time is also a cost.



so should i conclude that we are in hurry to buy some Tanks ?? could be for replacement of some old version UD's i think ?
or i understand it wrong ?


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## Umair Nawaz

Bratva said:


> In 10 years, Only 450 al Khalid have been manufactured. We need to replace 1500 tanks in like 10 years. This is where foreign tanks comes in the picture


600+


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## waz

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Sir, I do agree with some of the points, you have raised. ALTAY is essentially in a development phase, Its engine is German, we dont know how it will perform in our hot climate. The indigenous Turkish engine development is planned but how it will go ahead in future, no body knows.
> Price tag around $6million v/s OPLOT $4.5 million
> Currently Ukraine needs money, we may get good discounts on it. Look on bigger picture, we may get complete ToT (including engines) and IFV deal as well.
> Turkey's tank is a future thing. Ukraine was the industrial hub of Soviet Union. T series plant was essentially in Ukraine. Ukraine industrial know how in tank design and engine technology is superior to Turks as of now. Lastly if you are placing your bets on ALTAY, then there is no logic of AK2 project.



Brother the development phase is at an end and we'll see improvements from now on. The tank is undergoing extensive trials now with the Turkish army. As for how it will perform in hot climates, the German Leopard operating the same engine has done very well in Afghanistan's extreme heat. The indigenous phase is in full swing e.g. it's own Turkish engine. The price tag is also negligible, especially considering the massive step-up we gain in technology.
I'm not saying the OPLOT is not great, it is, but the army should go for the OPLOT to replace a large number of our obsolete tanks and go for the Altay at the higher end. Your points on technology transfer are spot on, but this wouldn't be a problem with the Turks, who are our strategic allies.
You're right about Ukraine's past, but it is the past. Currently Ukraine is suffering economically, on a war footing practically and therefore it is questionable if it could commit as of now to Pakistan's requirements.
As for their knowhow being superior to the Turks, that might have been the case in the past but Turkey has made huge leaps and bounds in this department and do remember they have the South Koreans on board as partners, who have added their expertise with the K2 Black Panther. They bring with them a technical level far greater than Ukraine's.
The AK2 project seems to be a non-starter.


If any brothers would like to see the progress of the Altay please visit this thread and see what our Turkish kin are up to.

Altay MBT Program | Page 115

It will answer many questions.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hakan said:


> India already outnumbers pakistan with regard to tanks, they have 1200 good T-90's and they have 2500 T-72's which are better than Pakistan's older chinese based tanks. Now Pakistan is getting more tanks (T-84) that do not have an advantage over the T-90's or at least a significant advantage. Pakistan needs to get some Altays, this is what will give it the edge over India's tanks.
> 
> Check out the Greek Tank trials where they compared Leo 2, Abrams, Challenger 2, and T-84 Oplot.




india as of right now is stuck with 500 T-90S.
1700+ T-72s (without night visions and bursting canons)
And 118_24 Arjun's.


Pak has an EDGE.. Our AK-I is much better than their T-90s.. They bought T-90s to compete with our UDs !


Pak tank fleet :

600 AK-I's
325 UDs (upgraded)
550+ AZs
500-600 Type-85IIAPs (We're modified variants produced by Pak)
Etc etc!


Oplots have an advantage over anything india has... AK-I itself beats T-90 on pure specs !

As for Altay nope... We don't need that... When we have our own AK Project.. The smartest thing (which is being done) is getting subsystems if Altay... According to HIT officials they are going for Turkish systems to equip AK.. Which till now has been using French systems like Matis etc.. Turkish ones are a little cheaper and on par with French ones... That's an advantage in itself.


Oplots share similarities with out UDs or 84s.. With 60% ToT that's another advantage.

P.S: Altay is useless in our terrain ... Specially in Punjab and Sindh.. Apart from the soil.. Our canal systems,rails,bridges cant support such a heavy tank...



waz said:


> Brother the development phase is at an end and we'll see improvements from now on. The tank is undergoing extensive trials now with the Turkish army. As for how it will perform in hot climates, the German Leopard operating the same engine has done very well in Afghanistan's extreme heat. The indigenous phase is in full swing e.g. it's own Turkish engine. The price tag is also negligible, especially considering the massive step-up we gain in technology.
> I'm not saying the OPLOT is not great, it is, but the army should go for the OPLOT to replace a large number of our obsolete tanks and go for the Altay at the higher end. Your points on technology transfer are spot on, but this wouldn't be a problem with the Turks, who are our strategic allies.
> You're right about Ukraine's past, but it is the past. Currently Ukraine is suffering economically, on a war footing practically and therefore it is questionable if it could commit as of now to Pakistan's requirements.
> As for their knowhow being superior to the Turks, that might have been the case in the past but Turkey has made huge leaps and bounds in this department and do remember they have the South Koreans on board as partners, who have added their expertise with the K2 Black Panther. They bring with them a technical level far greater than Ukraine's.
> The AK2 project seems to be a non-starter.
> 
> 
> If any brothers would like to see the progress of the Altay please visit this thread and see what our Turkish kin are up to.
> 
> Altay MBT Program | Page 115
> 
> It will answer many questions.




Sir there is Alot of difference between Northern Pak and the plains of Punjab and deserts of Sindh...

Abrams failing in the 90s.. Indian T-90s cooking their FCS & engines etc ... Apart from that the infrastructure constraints... 

And even our AK project etc make Altay undesirable!


But the good news is that AK will use Altays subsystems...like gunner,commander sights etc.

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## VelocuR

Spectre said:


> How does oplot compares with T-90 MS because afaik* India signed a USD 1.6 Billion deal for around 350 T-90 MS. *
> 
> Just a query without any insinuation



Really? That's great advantage over us, India plan to obtain 236. Any link?

Trial:





This trial is more impressive and more powers than Thailand's own T-84 Oplot trial in the previous page.


----------



## waz

Here is some data on the Greek tank trials, which involved the T-84 against the Western tanks.




The tanks compared included the M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2A5, Leclerc, T-80UE and T-84.

*Of these six vehicles, out of a maximum possible operational and technical score of 100%, best performing were: Leopard 2A5, 78.65%; M1A2 Abrams, 72.21%; Leclerc, 72.03%; and Challenger 2E, 69.19%. Next was the T-84 and last the T-80UE.*

*The Leopard 2A5 was the only one with a demonstrated deep fording capability, while the M1A2 had the best firing results during hunter/killer target engagements.*

The German 1,500hp MTU EuroPowerPack was fitted in both the Leclerc and the Challenger 2E and these two vehicles had the best cruising range and lower fuel consumption.

*The T-80U had the best mobility and reliability.*

Some shooting results:

Leopard 2A5: ~80%
Leclerc: 65% targets hit
*T-84: 47 % targets hit*
Challenger-2: 40 % targets hit

No data for the T-80UE and M1A2. The Challenger-II did not use proper ammo, while the T-80UE and T-84 used practice rounds 3P31, which corresponds to BM15 at below 1.5 km but become unpredictable after 2 kms. The Abrams could not fire practice ammo and had to wait for 3 days before real ones were brought.

The T-80UE had an experimental T type transmission.

*The T-84 was considered to be somewhat inmature and had few problems: smoke grenades failing to work. *





























Test 1 : Slalom to evaluate mobility.
Test 2 : 1000km run.
Test 3 : 50km by night.
Test 4 : 100km with stabilisation enabled.
Test 5 : Emergency brake (Norm was 25 emergency brake).
Test 6 : Optics stabilisation.
Test 7 : Target detection.
Test 8 : Target detection by night.
Test 9 : First round hit probability (@1600m; target: 2,3x2,3m still).
Test 10 : Firing on the move on fix target (40km/h; @1000-1200m; target : 2,3x2,3m still; 10 APFSDS).
Test 11 : Evaluation of the precision on still target (still; @2000m; target : 2,3x2,3m still; 10 APFSDS).
Test 12 : Evaluation of the precision of firing on the move on still targets (40km/h; same conditions as before).
Test 13 : Probability of first round hit by night (still; @1000m; target : 2,3x2,3m 1 APFSDS).
Test 14 : Probability of first round hit on the move by night on still target (40km/h; same).
Test 15 : Evaluation of the precision on still targets by night (still; @1500m; target : 2,3x2,3m still; 10 APFSDS).
Test 16 : Evaluation of the precision of firing on the move by night on still targets (40km/h; same).
Test 17 : Probability of first round hit on moving targets (still; @1000m; target : 2,3x4,6m 20-30km/h 1 APFSDS).
Test 18 : Probability of first round hit on the move on moving target (40km/h; @1000-1200m; same).
Test 19 : Evaluation of the precision on moving targets (still; @1500m; target : 2,3x4,6m 20-30km/h; 10 APFSDS).
Test 20 : Evaluation of the precision of firing on the move on still targets (40km/h; @1500-1700m; same).
Test XX : Rate of fire for 25 ammunitions (still; @1500m; 2 targets : 2,3x2,3m still angle between the two 100mils; 1min; 25 APFSDS; pourcentage at least 90%).
Test 26 : Emergency firing mode.
Test 27 : Hunter-killer.
Test 28 : Hunter-killer by night.
Test 29 : Evaluation of the maximum range (4 APFSDS).
Test 30 : Shooting the coaxial.
Test 31 : Fording 2,15m depth.
Test 32 : Smoke screen device.
Test 34 : Changing tracks.
Test 35 : Changing track pads.
Test 36 : Taking out the powerpack.
Test 37 : Taking out the power supply unit.
Test 38 : Taking out the coaxial.
Test 39 : Changing barrel of the coax.

Firing on the move :
M1A2 : 17/20
Leclerc : 20/20
Leopard 2A5 : 19/20
Challenger 2 : - (not documented)
*T84 : 8 shot still and 3 on the move 

*
Night firing by night results (with 10 shots out of 20, on the move) :
M1A2 : 20/20
Leclerc : 19/20
Leopard 2A5 : 20/20
Challenger 2 : 10/10 (Challenger would not have shot on the move)
*T84 : - (thermal failure)*

Firing on the move on moving targets :
M1A2 : - (not documented)
Leclerc : - (not documented)
Leopard 2A5 : - (not documented)
Challenger 2 : - (not documented)
*T84 : 6/10* (remaining still according to the author)

Hunter-killer results :
M1A2 : did not took part by lack of ammunition
Leclerc : 13/20 (according to the author, there had been an autoloader failure in the middle of the session)
Leopard 2A5 : 17/20
Challenger 2 : 8/20
*T84 : 9/19



*

Part 1 (A translation):

Protection tripped the drive turret (control switched off for 10-15 ceKundu). In fact, when measuring the angle of heel of 17 °. schashita nastraiis called for tripping at 150. Committee to give explanations on why the stabilizer off control and customization protectyou relieve at work on the roll to 18 ° -20 °.

Long ago there was a conversation that would "zagrubit" angles of heel to stab. And the question of 20 degrees has long been settled. Laid down, probably on an old proven option.

Slalom

T-80U has overcome this obstacle without collision on the flags. It should be noted that since the passage of the test was carried out from the place of tanks moved in first gear, so the rotation iswere connecting clutch OPF and thus were noticeable jerks. Tanks Western firms take turns at all speeds smoothly without jerking.

And why the place? Yes, and not knowing the dimensions "envelope" is difficult to judge.

Turns on the spot at 360 ° on the ground and concrete

The T:80U performing the exercises in full. The Committee notedthis means that wear The rubber tracks at the turn on the concrete a minimum compared to all submitted tanks. At timesthe collar housing with a maximum speed of withdrawal is the tower from the stable position due to lack of driving power stabilizer.

Yeah, probably not from the "lack" of power, but from the response from the dealer managers pregruza.



Maneuverability test

T-80U performed this exercise in full of minianomalous time compared to all submitted tanks.

According to the results of the test committee said the T-80U in the beamShui direction. In full this test without remarks carried out only the T-80U and Leclerc. " It should be noted that because of the low-speed reverse in such exercises, the result is reduced, Tanks westGOVERNMENTAL firms have speed reversing up to 30 km / h (T-80U - 12 km / h)

And the hell 30 need?

Test 2. Making 1000 km march.

T-80U completed the march in full. In carrying out the march figures were:



cruising range on the combined route

(Mountainous, dirt roads and paved)

Fuel consumption on highway

current stock of progress on the highway:

on internal tanks

additional barrels

maximum speed

time full charging




350 km;

4 L / km;



412 km,

562 km.

80km / h;

23 minutes (at a pressure of 1.5 atm);



noise from the engine and chassis - the data are not available, but for theappearance of a committee of the minimum from the selection of tanks;

The rubber wear track - after the march, wear rate of 100% replacement caterpillar tracks. Due to the absence ofthe second set of condition The rubber caterpillar tracks, the tank T-80U crawler mounted metal tape. We have no experience in mass production asfaltohodov. In the UAE, which drove his battalion on board (in Kosovo), then all 11 km the port is strewn with rubber.



maintenance time during the march and after withcompletion of the march. Committee recorded during technical maintenance:minimal smoothing of the tanks provided by:



According to the Committee of the T-80U has fulfilled all the requirements ofprograms to perform the march, and on such indicators as:

power reserve;
fuel consumption;
maximum speed;
full charging time;
exceeded the figures claimed by 15-20%. Excellent!



Test 3 Execution 50 km march at night.

T-80U test carried out in full. Excellent!



Test 4 Execution 100 km march with included stabilizer.

T-80U test carried out in full. Committee noted the reliability of the stabilizer. Excellent!



Test 5 Emergency braking

T-80U performed an emergency stop - 25 times (according to the program 25 times). Performing the test was stopped after 19 -the first deceleration, m, since the temperature in the gear box reached 140 ° C. After a 15 minute break execution - the test was continued and made six braking. When the temperature in the boxes gear about 150 ° C, the test run was terminated. Committee noted that this test was performed after 100 km march with included stabilizer. Other tanks, participantssponding in the trials, except T-84, this test was carried out without performing the march, that is, the "cold tank".it put!

Test 6 Stabilization of the visual field

T-80U This test is not performed, due to the failure of hydraulic transmission (GOP - 165) Lazhanulis!

Test 7 Target detection

T-80U fully complied with, with the result obtainedresults:

number of measurements in the range of minute-34;
maximum range of measurement - 9100m; Here's your answer to LD!
target detection - 9100 m;
classification purposes - 3000 m; In my opinion, these figures need to swap (klass. and identification).
identification purposes - 6500 m



Committee noted that the measured temperature exceeds 1,5 -2 times stated. Excellent!

Test 8 Target detection night

T-80U test carried out in full, at the same time obtained the following results for teplovizornomu Sight (Agave-2):

detection of targets - 6400 m;
classification purposes - 4600 m; At the level of villains
identification purposes - 2500 m.

By infrared imaging results were obtained:

target detection - 1750 m;
classification purposes - 1500 m;.
identification purposes - 1500 m



Note - Conditions of the test are close to ideal - clear starry night, clean mountain air.



3 test firing

Plot to shoot a 4 track in the foothills of the mountains from a distance 2500 m.

Goals are located at an altitude of 100 -150 m relative to the location shooting, with a track rise 5-7 ° towards the goals.

Nature of the track - clayey soil with lots of stones and rubble, sharp turns up to 50-60 degrees, the pit depth up to 1,0 -1,2 m.

Mission situation:

old tanks M-60;
shields size 2,3 x2, 3 m from the fabric material on the metalthe metallic frame;
moving target size 2,3 x4, 6 m, the speed of motionof 20-30 km / hour;
target for machine guns of various sizes,

for shooting at night used tissue target fordogretye hot air. At what distance?

To carry out fire at 3000 - 4000 m used these same target, with the position of fire moved from the territory of polyrut.



Test 9

The probability of hitting a target the first shot

Range- 1600 m. Purpose - fixed uandt 2.3 x 2,3 m. Shooting from the spot by one shot.

T-80U test carried out in full, the percentage of damage - 100%.



Test 10

The defeat of the fixed target in motion

Range 1000 -1200 m. Purpose - fixed shield 2.3 x 2,3 m. Strelba tank in motion V = 40 km / h - 10 shots, shot - an armor-piercing.

T-80U test carried out in full, the percentage of lesions, 100%, the velocity of a tank of 20-25 km / hour (speed of 40 km / h tank does not develop because of the state highway). And in general, after 30 km / h. get problematic. If it is not me.



Test 1911 Carrying shooting accuracy

Range 2000 m. Purpose - fixed shield 2.3 x 2,3 m. Shooting from the place - 10 shots, the projectile-armor-piercing.

T-80U test carried out in full, the percentage of damage - 80%, with two falling into the center of the target, 6 hits in the right loweredge of the target equations. After the shooting revealed a grade slip withintact 1G46 on the device built-in test equipment to 0,25 etc. Aboutplagued by adjusting alignment sight 1G46 on UVKV.Unfortunately, it happens ...



Test 1912 Carrying shooting accuracy in motion

Range 2000 m. Purpose - fixed. Shield 2.3 x 2,3 m. Shooting tank in motion V= 40 km / h - 10 shots, shot - an armor-piercing.

Poluchenny result - the percentage of lesions - 30% (requirements committee-80%). After the shooting divestment marks the sight of 1G46 UVKV at 0.25 right up. Any adjustments in alignment withintact 1G46 on UVKV. Execution of the test re-manufactured Russian crew. Percentage of defeat - 20%. After the shooting divestment marks the sight of 1G46 UVKV at 0.25 right up.

As agreed with the committee allowed the re-holding test, but due to failure of the GOP did not hold.

After returning the tank to the park made test mounting the gun and sight, as well as verification of the stabilizer. The audit found:

produced by tightening wedges mounting guns;

Irrevocable sight backlash 1G46 up to 0.5 Right etc.;

after cooling the barrel and pulls the parallelogram drive 1G46 Brand sight of UVKV returns to its original position.

Test 13 The probability of hitting a target the first shot at night

Range 1000 m. Purpose - fixed shield 2.3 x 2,3 m. Shooting from the place - one shot, shot - an armor-piercing.

T-80U test carried out in full, the percentage of lesions,100%.



14 Test defeat stationary targets in motion at night

Range 1000 m. Purpose - fixed shield 2.3 x 2,3 m. Shooting tank in motion V = 40 km / h - One shot, shot - an armor-piercing.

The result obtained - the percentage of destruction - 0%.

Andrew! My personal achievement at night (And it is in the mode of double "):

- Through the Agave-2 - 8 of 9 through Agate 9 of 9. D av = 1340m. Purpose - real BMP-2.



Test 1915 Carrying shooting accuracy at night

Range 1500m. Purpose - fixed shield 2.3 x 2,3 m. Shooting from the place - 10 shots, shot - an armor-piercing.

The result obtained - the percentage of lesion-80% (requirements committee-90%).



Test 1916 Carrying shooting accuracy

Range 1500 m. Purpose - fixed shield 2.3 x 2.3 m. Shoot the tank in motion V = 40 km / h - 10 shots, shot - an armor-piercing.

The result obtained - the percentage of lesions 50% (according Committee - 90%).

According to the Greek crew gunner when firing a motionlattice is experiencing difficulties in finding objective measurement of distance to the goal, the tangent to the target (shooting made in the modes 4,5 and 18). In the 4.5 at distances greater than 1500 m target size commensurate with the thickness of the lines of sight. Because of the dependence of stabilization at dawnZhaniya and vibrations of the gun while driving a tank gunner loses the target. Noodle!

The analysis of the fire control system to resultthere run firings.



Tests 12 and 16 and found:

in the manufacture of fire seen a steady withdrawal, reconciliation of UVKV right up to the value of 0.25 TD per every 10 shots. After cooling down the barrel and pulls the drive 1G46 positivemapping reconciliation of UVKV returns to its original position;

If left "electrical zero" - MSA shit, if lost its alignment - 1G-46 crap.

when shooting moving on fixed targets in the D = 2000 m with the size of goals 2,3 x2, 3 m (1.15 x 1.15 etc. etc.) from the T-80U and T-84 with four crew observed the stability of solutionsresults 03/02 hit. In this case, the first shell at the beginning toelbow gets in front of goal second shell - about 100 m from the beginning of a track-left goals, the third in the goal. I do not understand a damn!

The most probable cause - an incorrect algorithm for making corrections to the migrated velocity of the target (angle φ) and the lack of powerstabilizer sequence (slip of the tower at a shot at turning the correlationPusa tank).

Amendment of the deferred rate target produced aboutproportional to the rate of change of angle between the hull of the tank and cannon. On this track, with the shooting angle of the body relative to the horizon was more than 5, ° with the gun fromthe body with respect to when a shot has a decrease 0-2 °; it contributes to improper development of the amendment and shells offalling below the target; Mudita sensor roll.

Perhaps there is some lag vyrabaPipeline amendment. When driving on rough terrain is no grouping of hits, but in 4 races (T-80U and T-84) is visible to the stability of the projectile flight, depending on the area trails;

influence improperly making corrections to the migrated velocity of the target and may explain the better results shooting at night, because TO1-PA2 (Agave-2) is dependent stabilization, and therefore in the process of mining various amendments gun takes aim with a crosshair thermal sight and the gunner can not produce a sighting shot. The shot is made only when the target is on the cross. According to the analysis of the decision about how to disable the deferred correction speed of the target by firing a tank in motion. Disabling produced rupture of the chain (U7SH6/35 - SH42 / 6 - BV2HS36/19) in the cable assembly from the electric unit.



Test 17 The probability of hitting a target the first shot

Range 1000 m. Purpose - movable shield 2,3 x4, 6 m Firing from the place - one shot, shot - an armor-piercing, the velocity of the target 20 -30 km / h.

T-80U test carried out in full. Percentage of hits - 100%. Before starting the test readjusted reconciliation of UVKV taking into account the slip marks on the 0.25 so on.



18 Test defeat a moving target in motion

Range 1000 -1200 m. Purpose - movable shield 2.3 x 4,6 m. Shoot the tank in motion V = 40 km / h - One shot, shot - an armor-piercing, the velocity of the target 20 -30 km / h.

T-80U test carried out in full. Percentage of defeat - 100%. Performing the test was carried out taking into account the disposal of reconciliation of UVKV at 0.25 so on.



Test 19 Conduct of fire on the accuracy of a moving target

Range 1500 m. Purpose - movable shield 2.3 x 4,6 m. Shooting from the place - 10 shots, shot - an armor-piercing, the velocity of the target 20 -30 km / h.

T-80U test carried out in full. Percentage of lesion-90%. Before shooting made adjustments to the alignment of light diversion.



Test 20 Conduct of fire on the accuracy of a moving target on the move

Range 1500 -1700 m. Purpose - movable shield 2.3 x 4,6 m. Shoot the tank in motion V = 40 km / h - 10 shots, shot - an armor-piercing, the velocity of the target 20 -30 km / h.

The test was performed twice. The Greek crew of the test is not performed. Percentage of lesion-60%. Russian crew of the test performed. Before shooting disabled amendment for the transfer speed of the target and made reconciliation with the adjustment to the 0.3 TD. (Pre-shift the aiming point). Percentage of defeat - 90%. Ie removed the "mistake of the day of shooting." And tomorrow, what?

Produced by the analysis of fire tests on 19 and 20 showed that pre-polnitelno errors fire control system is added and the inconsistency of practical flight trajectory of the munition ZP31 incorporated in the computational path armor-piercing projectiles (BM15, BM22, BM26). For example, at distances of up to 1500 m its ballistics are roughly equivalent BM/115, from 1500 to 2000 m - About BM22, at ranges of more 2000 m - Did not match any of the type planted in the calculator.

Thus, to deliver fire this type of weapon is difficult (requires adjusting the aiming point, depending on the target range). It's time to remove the practical shells. Save-with, damn ...



25 Test Firing

Range 1500 m, The goal - two fixed shield 2.3 x 2.3 distance between the goals -100 M, Shooting from the spot, while 1 - min., Armor-piercing projectile. The probability of hitting at least 90%.

Rate was 6 rounds per minute. Requirement Komitheta at least 7 rounds per minute. The low rate of performance due to the application for firing practice ammunition ZP31, which has a sample of black powder and windless weather (can not target detection, after the shot to scatter smokyof clouds. Time to scatter the smoky cloud was not less than 15 seconds).. And I got on 27 seconds of dispersion pyledymogo clouds ... loading mechanism provided rate of not less than 9 you arean arrow in a minute.

Test30 firing a machine gun

T-80U test performed.

Comments of the Greek crew: the inability of the impact of fire with a machine gun NSVT, in motion, due to lack of stability in the horizontal plane. Shoot for the brand through a stabilized panoramic. Everything is better.

Test 31 fording. Broad depth of 2,15 m.

T-80U test carried out in full. The test was carried out with full installation kit OPVT. Committee was fixed quicklyand that ease of installation of removable elements of the EAD, as well as their discharge and conduct of firing the gun after Fording without leaving eki's page from the tank. Fine.

Test 32 test launchers "cloud-902B"

T-80U test performed. Committee noted as a drawback of theabsence of a solid smoky clouds in calm weather. The speed of wind at the test = 0. After the test there was a refusal hydrostatic transmission (the tank had not been able to turn) and was evacuated to a park.

Tests 6, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 27, 23, 29, 33 T-80U does not comply.



4 maintainability



34 test track replacement track on

T-80U test performed by the Russian crew, using a ZIPa tank for 18 minutes. Committee recorded the best result of all predstavlennk tanks. Fine.



Test 35 Replacement caterpillar tracks

T-80U test performed by the Russian crew to useindividual Niemi ZIPa tank for 1 hour and 45 minutes. Fine.



Test 36 Removing and installing engine

T-80U test performed by the Russian crew to useindividual Niemi ZIPa tank. For disassembly and assembly of engine load lifting means 2 ton (truck Greek apmission).

The dismantling - 1 hr 43 min. Installation time - 1 hour 20 minutes. A Leclerc - 30 minutes there and back the same ...



Test 37 Removing and installing the generator

Tashs T-80U test performed by the Russian crew to usethe ISP Niemi individual tank. The dismantling - 25 m, (???? Which of the generators? Maybe a minute?) while monThuja - 43. Committee marked the best result of all submitted tanks.



Test 38 Removing and replacing the PCT

The test was performed twice by the Greek and Russian crews.

Time of removal of PBC Greek crew -5 sec;

Time of removal of PBC Russian crew - 3:

Setup time FCT Greek crew - 17 seconds;

Setup time FCT Russian crew - 23 seconds.

Test 39 The barrel NSVT

The test was performed twice by the Greek and Russian crews.

Time to replace the barrel NSVT Greek crew - 21;

Time to replace the barrel NSVT Russian crew - 19 seconds.

Note - data is not the official results of the tests, as shown by foreign tanks



1 Training and education

According to the officers of the Greek army, the most complicated in Obuchenii and operation of tank Leclerc. Tank Leclerc "requires more trained personnel for maintenance and repair of all before therepresentations of tanks. During practice the tank, "Leclerc" identified bykaz loading mechanism.

For the rest of the tanks is no information. According to the committee members the easiest to learn and acooking crew is the T-80U.

2 Overcoming Obstacles and conducting sea trials

Test 1. wall 1 m

Tank Abrams MA2 "- head trauma Greek commander at the gathering with obstacles. The crew is replaced by an American;
Tank Leclerc - no comments;
Tank Chelendzher2E "- head trauma Greek commander at the convergencedes obstacles, utykanie gun into the ground at the gathering with obstacles.
Tank T-84 - Greek crew members injured while trying to overcomenegotiated the obstacle. The wall is not resolved. The crew changed to Ukrainian.Ukrainian crew overcame the wall, but the gathering occurred damageof the exhaust nozzle.
Tank Leopard 2A5 - no comments.

ditch 2,5 m

All tanks overcame ditch without comment.

slope 30%

Tank M1A2 Abrams "was unable to stop on the way down (the crew of the Americanican);
Tank Leclerc - no comments;
tank "Challenger 2E - no. was able to climb the slope, slipping gusenichnyh tapes;
Tank T-84 - could not climb the slope with a stop (the crew of Ukrainian governmentInscoe);

And that's for you comment.

Tank Leopard 2A5 - unable to climb the slope. The head of the group protested the committee that the reason the test is notis the presence of traces of rubber from the caterpillar tracks of previous tanks. About thetest committee was rejected, because after the tank Leopard 2A5 "test performed T-80U and the obstacle was overcome.



Roll 15%

Tank T-84 - slip the stabilizer.

For the rest of the tanks is no information.

"Slalom"

All tanks are obstacles to overcome, the information shown on the time, while overcoming, no.

turns in place 360 degrees.

All tanks exercise performed, the information shown on the timeMeni not.
Change of position

All tanks exercises performed, the information shown on the timeMeni not.

After running a test on the tank''Leopard 2A5 "replaced the gooseboundary tape and held again to overcome the bias 30%. In the second attempt with the new tracks slope 30% tank overcame. After the second attempt on the tank to re-make the change gusenichGOVERNMENTAL tapes. Same shit!

The tank "Challenger 2E replaced 80-90% of the shoes gusenichnyh tapes and made a second attempt to overcome the slope 32 degrees. Information on the results there, but after the second attempt ofreplacement plagued track tapes. Same shit!



The tank Abrams M1A2 "any fault on the engine, dismantled the engine. The tanks, "Abrams M1A2", "Leclerc" and T-84 after the test also replaced the crawler belt.

Test 2 Execution march 1000 km

In the process of committing the march, the following failures andserviceability:

Tank M1A2 Abrams - the lack of 3-shoe caterpillar tracks, stop at a forced march to the conduct of the commission regulationgauge works; And the reason?

Tank Leclerc - problems with the engine or box transmission, as in small halts (10-15 min.) there is fainterof the engine. At a big halt (after 124 km path) - regulates thegauge or repair work on the engine;

tank "Challenger 2E - engine trouble or transition boxproblems (could not keep going after the big halt, arrived in the park alone after 3 hours after the daily march of waspsexperimental tanks). Repeated replacement of shoes caterpillar tracks in the process of committing marches; overheated?

Tank T-84 - in the commission of the first diurnal march of the Greek crew after the passage of the mountain sections of the route has refused to continueto press the motion, citing the increased fatigue, the crew changed to Ukrainian.

Refusal speedometer in the commission of the first daily march. Studythe use of respirators by crews of foreign tanks, following the T-84, due to poisoning

exhaust gases.

Tank Leopard 2A5 - after a third of the daily march substituted 2 -th left and right fifth road wheels.



After committing 1000 km the march on all the tanks were replaced caterpillar tracks.

Task Team Leader of the tank Leopard 2A5 has asked the Committee to test for weighing tanks, since he believes that the tank "Leclerc" shows good performance on the march as a result of making it to the lite version. ... it put a neighbor Committee scheduled the test after returning from the march but the test was not performed because of limitedtest time magnetization.
__________________

Sorry for the long data, but quite a telling read.


Part 2:

In the process of committing a march established:

Cruising:

- Abrams - 365 km;
"Leopard 2" - 375 km;
"Challenger " - 440 km;

· "Leclerc" - 500 km (Without the two additional drums);

· T-84 - 450km.



Maximum speed:

· Abrams -70 -72 km / h;

"Leopard 2" - 70 -75 km / h;
"Challenger" - up 70 km / h;
"Leclerc" - 70 -75 km / h;

· T-84 - 65 -70 km / h.



Full charging time.

Abrams - 35-40 min.
"Leopard 2" - 30 min;
"Challenger" - no data;
"Leclerc" - no data;

· T-84 - no data.



Test 3 Execution 50 km march at night

All tanks tests are performed. In the process of committing a march on the tank Leopard 2A5 "went down the night instrument mechanics - the driver, after replacing the unit continued to move the tank.



Test 4 Execution 100 km March included stabilizers

No information.



Test 5 Emergency braking

Tank Abrams M1A2 "-24;
Tank Leclerc " - 25;
Tank Leopard 2A5 - 5;
tank "Challenger 2E - no data;
Tank T-84 - 8.



Test 6 Stabilization of the visual field

No information.



Test 7 Target detection

Information on the tanks do not. The tank T-84 refused to thermal imaging devices, produced in France, the tank was not restored.



Test 8 detection circuits night

Information on the tanks do not.

3 Tests on shooting



Test 9 Probability of hitting a target the first shot.

Test 10 defeats a fixed target in motion.

Information on tests 9 and 10, no.



Conducting the test in 1911 shooting for accuracy.

Test 12. Conducting shooting accuracy in motion.

The results for test 11 and 12:

Tank Abrams M1A2 - 17 hits of 20;
Tank Leclerc " - 20 hits of 20;
Tank Leopard 2A5" - 19 hits of 20;
Tank "Challenger 2E-no information;
Tank T-84- with seats 8 hits in Traffic 3 fallingof.



Test 13 The probability of hitting a target the first shot at night.

Test 14 Defeats fixed targets in motion at night.

In tests on 13 and 14 tank T-84 did not participate, due to failure of thermalNogo device for the rest of the tanks is no information.



Conducting the test in 1915 shooting on the accuracy of night

Conducting the test in 1916 shooting on the accuracy of the night in motion

The results for tests 15 and 16: Well, what can I say? See my above!

Tank Abrams M1A2 - 20 hits of 20;
Tank Leclerc " - 19 hits of 20;
Tank Leopard 2A5 - 20 hits of 20;
Tank "Challenger 2E - 10 hits of 10, the move did not shoot;

Tank T-84 in the test did not take part due to the failure of the heatdiffusion device.

After the firing on the tank "Challenger 2E is produced forexchange gearbox.

According to the results of firing the head of the American tank Abrams M1A2 "refused to use training ammunition (and we have not given up) fightcurves ammunition were delivered within 3 days of the U.S. forces, stationed in Europe.



Test 17 The probability of hitting a target the first shot

Test 18 Porazhenke moving target on the move

Information on the results of tests on 17 and 13 no.



Conducting the test in 1919 shooting on the accuracy of a moving target

Conducting the test in 1920 shooting on the accuracy of a moving target on the move

The results obtained in tests on 19 and 20:

Tanks Abrams M1A "," Leclerc "," Leopard 2M5 "," Challenger 2E is no information;

Tank T-84 from the place of information is not in motion six hits in 10 shots;

Tank "Challenger 2E returned to the test because of non-serviceability of the engine or gearbox.



Test probability of 21 lesions moving target the first shot at night

22 Test defeat a moving target in motion at night

In tests on 21 and 22 tank T-84 did not participate because of refusal of thermal imaging device, the remaining tanks to no information.



Conducting the test in 1923 shooting on the accuracy of a moving target at night

Conducting the test in 1924 shooting on the accuracy of a moving target in motion at night

In tests on 23 and 24 tank T-84 did not participate because of refusal of thermal imaging device at the other tanks no information.



25 Test Firing

Tank Abrams M1A - 8 in / min.
Tank Lyklerk " - 9 in / min.
Tank Leopard 2A5 - 9 in / min.
Tank "Challenger 2E - 9 in / min.
Tank T-84-Greek crew of 6 in / min., Ukrainian crew - 7.

After running tests, 17 - 25 American group has been called the best crew of the tank the U.S. Army to perform tests on fire. In-in!

Test 26 shooting in the emergency mode

Information on the shooting, no.



Test 27 shooting in the "hunter-shooter"

Tank Abrams M1A2 " - did not participate due to lack of ammunitionowls;
Tank Leclerc "- 13 hits from 20 shots; 0.65
Tank 'The Leopard 2A5 - 17 hits from 20 shots;0.85
Tank "Challenger 2E - 8 hits of 20 rounds;0.40
Tank T-84 - 9 hits out of 19 shots. 0.47 All the same ingleshey done. And it's good.



Test 28 shooting in the "hunter-shooter" at night

Information on the shooting, no.



29 Test Firing at maximum range

Tank Abrams M1A2 - 3 shots hit out of 4;

Tanks Leopard 2A5 "," Leclerc "," Challenger 2E-no information.

Tank T-84 - unguided flight guided missiles (test execution terminated). Then, when shooting with two guided missiles at a distance 2500 m - 2 hits.

In the process of running tests on the firing of the tank, "Leclerc" zafika fixed three failure loading mechanism. The tank Leopard 2A5 " replacing track tapes. The tank "Challenger 2E denial weapons, gear failure (restoration was carried out in 3 days ), the replacement of the drive wheels.



30 test firing of guns

The tank T-84 - refusal fire control system, on the other tanks no information.

After completing tests on firing on the tanks, "Abrams M1A", "Leclerc" and "Challenger 2E" was the repeated execution of some test shooting (no information on the results). Trying to prove that they are the best?



Test 31. Fording (the depth of the ford - 2,15 m.)

The test did not attend the tanks, "Leclerc" and "Challenger 2E. The tank Abrams M1A2 "came flooding of the engine performance test was prekrasheno; tanks Leopard 2A5, and T-84 to perform the test in full without comment.



December 14

When leaving the box after installation and first centerfold was found that there was no turning control of the wheel. On examination revealed a cut of the pump feeding the GOP. Feed pumps jammed. When viewed filters GOP found a large number of chips and damaged items yellow. The reason for the defect - failure GOP MP-280RU number 973011 (working hours in the tank 10 minutes).

Due to lack of facilities for manufacturers and developers of certified GOP to recover the tank decided to discontinue the participation of T-80U tank in the trials. Take the spare tire on the experimental build!



CONCLUSIONS AND SUGGESTIONS

according to test results



During tests carried out checks on more than 100 parameters. By all parameters tested the T-80U has confirmed compliance with the stated performance characteristics, except for the test rate (rate not provided because of the inability to make a shot to the dispersion of smoke from the practice rounds with melon powder).



A number of parameters T-80U has surpassed the alleged characteristics:

reserve of fact - 350 km when driving on the mountain, and dirt roads with asphalt (by TTH - 340 km on the highway) ,
Fuel consumption on the asphalt - 4 l / km (TTC - 5-7 l / km);
maximum measurement range is actually - 9100 m (By TTX-5000m);
maximum speed to virtually 80 km / h (By TTH - 70 km / h).



Tender Committee noted the reliable operation, comparedcompared with foreign tanks, engine GTD-1250, transmission, loading mechanism.

Advantage in comparison with foreign tanks, is the presence of APU GTA-18A, which has significantly reduced the total fuel consumption by 1 hour of the tank systems ~ 60 l / h (total time of the tank is - 50% on the spot and 50% in traffic) for a tank with a didiesel engines without APU powercompletely 1500 L. with the fuel consumption is 120 - 50 l / h.



Starting the main engine GTE-1250 was carried out in 60 seconds, the other tanks, except tanks "Abrams", used the heater. And what was the T air?

According to the results of tests we can conclude that the waspsnovnymi competitors on the international market for T-80U are tanks Leopard 2A5 "and" Leclerc ". After the slightlywith respect to modernization, taking into account the proposals for dumping chainto us, significant competition will be a tank T-84 (Ukraine).

To ensure competitiveness in the foreign market work is needed to bring the main tactic - the technical characteristics of the tank T - 80U to the level of modern requirements.



Key issues to be addressed:



A hydrostatic transmission. Crude another thing.



The tank has not complied fully test program due to lack of reliability of hydraulic transmission (OSG).

Disadvantages:

When turning with a radius of less than 12 meters there are jerks, that is marked as failing.

When working in heavy traffic conditions reliability is obviously insufficient.

Unreliable control system spools the switchingof distribution mechanisms. The electric drive train control wound up on the CBA board mechanic driver together with other consumers, it is not permissible, because for any closure of theInstitute in these chains car loses control. must necessarilyoverlap with respect to this chain.

Is not sufficiently reliable box design zamykatefields and limit switches control the wheel. During operation requires constant attention and adjustment.

It is advisable to introduce hydraulic servo controlof spools distribution mechanism: that the call smoothly rotate at small radii. Yes, the witness had to lay the principle from the outset.

It is advisable to ensure the installation of back-up forwater, providing the ability to control the tank at the exit of failed GOP. If the existing control scheme, when you exit the building the GOP machine is not fully controlled, although a serviceable engine, transmission and distribution mechanismsleniya.

You must install additional filters, since in case of failure GOP hydraulics completely clogged products of destruction - a quality wash it after that is impossible,

Replacing the GOP field is impossible without applyingequations of special tools, jigs, stands. necessarywalk development of this equipment.

Not perfect and does not meet the aesthetic requirements of design control wheel. In the process of testing at the site of mounting the wheel appeared backlash, making it difficult to adjust the limit switches. necessary to develop a design helm, meeting modern requirementsNiyama (by analogy with the control tanks of Western countries).


2 Powerplant

The power plant has shown sufficient reliability and powersequence for all kinds of tests, but a clear advantage in comparisoncompared with the other tanks are not visible. Fuel asphalt roads - 4 l / km is comparable to the cost of diesel power plants of other tanks. Here is the answer to skeptics of the diesel-engine.

Fuel consumption on dirt roads and when driving at lower transmission rate of -7 and a l / km, which is significantly greater than the tanks of the NATO countries. Large fuel consideredis a serious fault.

Further work is needed to increase the power of the forcecurve setting, while reducing fuel consumption.



Three auxiliary power unit (GTA-18A)



During testing observed some nezapuskov GTA-18A after a break in a few days of sunbathing warning light "no oil pressure (the formation of an air tube in the oil system). Starting out only after repeated spins.

Need to develop activities obespechityuschih reliable starting GTA-18A after a long recess.


4 Fire Control System

The fire control system is much inferior to the precision shooting at ranges of 2500 - 2000 m tanks of the NATO countries. Required indicator of the probability that at these distances according to the standard target (2,3 x -2.3 M) From the place and go for armor-piercing projectile at least 90%. And we are laying ... 0.99 three shots.

Tolerances and errors in manufacturing, configuration and verification FCS 1A45 T-80U is 0,5 m on, that at distances 2500 m comparable to half the size of the target. For good results the total error of fire should not go beyond 0.20 0.22 ... etc..

Days to ensure the required accuracy permitted bydeviations should not exceed 0.25, etc. What is permitted? See above.
Insufficient power totabilizatora weapons can not provide the required accuracy when firing a descent at speeds of 25-40 km / hour (Standard NATO) of - for the tower takes when turning the body.

Working withtabilizatora to overrun leads to an increase in time to manufacture a shot, and also reduces the accuracy of shooting. Stabilizers tanks of the NATO countries operate without reruns.

We need to continue work on implementation of the stabilizer increased power and accuracy.

Lack of automatic input correction for "elevation targets" dramatically reduces the accuracy of fire in the mountains. When shooting in a landfill (in excess of target over a tank at 100 -200 M, The slope of the track 5.7 deg.) Calculator work out the wrong amendment "on the migrated velocity of the target and makes it impossible to shoot on the run in these conditions.

Require special algorithm of the evaluator to ensure shooting in these conditions and provide automaticelectric input amendments to the "elevation of purpose." For the record - at Kubinka at Dstr-2200 elevation of purpose - (minus) 20m. And the fall!

Under intense rate of fire main gun (80 - 100 shots for a few hours) is more than 0,5 withdrawal reconciliations, etc. because of the curvature of the barrel and the influence netermostabilnosti drives and sight. Reduce backlash joints, variation in wall thickness and curvature of the pipe. In this we do ...

Necessary to introduce into the FCS sensor ensuresautomatic entry of developing amendments to the curvature of the channel the setla and netermostabilnost drives.

Fluorescent channel sight commander does not provide the standards of NATO detection and identification of goals and precision firing.

You must install a panoramic sight with a built-nym channel laser range finder and automatic input onrevisions to the conditions of firing.

TVP "Agave 2 " much lower than TVP tagosov NATO countries on the detection range of targets in difficult conditions, image clarity and usability. The required accuracy of firing at a range of 1500 - 2000 m armor-piercing shells from their seats and run for at least 90%. dependent stabilization makes it impossible to provide the required accuracy of the shooting on the move.

You must install RTA, which is comparable to the characteristictics TVP tanks of the NATO countries.

Night-sight channel commander does not match the trianglesatisfy the requirements imposed on modern tanks and does not provide the required range target detection and accuracy. Once again, see my results.

You must install a night-sight channel commander of the main characteristics to the characteristics of the night gunner's sight. Work to upgrade the sights gunner and commander should be made comprehensive.



4 Complex "blind"

Complex optical-electronic suppression "blind" does not provide the response to radiation of the laser rangefinder foreign tanks of the Leopard-1A5 "," Lsopard-2A5, M-60AZ. Firing complex "blind" only occurs when irradiatedchenii with the T-84 ( Ukraine), a similar operation Origin ofhodilo and have a system installed on the tank T-84.

Require completion detection laser irradiation for the response to radiation rangefinders modernized and modern tanks of NATO, including those currently under development (range of response should be not less than 0,6 - 10,6 mm). The second step should be to develop multi-level sensors responding to all types of laser radiation and the radiation of radar stations in the milli-meter range. That's right.


5 Ergonomics

Noted discomfort after prolonged use because of notsufficient quality ergonomic seats (no solidGOVERNMENTAL bench seat gunner and commander, the lack of lateral support, as well as difficulties in adjusting the seat). There is no needto ensure the necessary conditions of life under continuous determination of the crew in the tank for a long time without logging off. According to the tender committee were significantly less space in the reserved amount in comparison with foreigneign tank, which creates additional inconvenience during combat operation.


6 Chassis

Comments on work sites chassis, except forNiemi ACG was not. When making long marches with painShimi speed on asphalt roads due to wear shoes ACG often had to adjust the tension of the gooseboundary tapes. Hatyazheniya gooseboundary tapes manually examinesthe Xia as a drawback.

Necessary to introduce a mechanism for automatic control - tension caterpillar tracks.



The disadvantages of existing anti-aircraft withknowledge - the impossibility of aimed fire from a poolof meta NCW while driving due to lack of stabilization, and also the overlapping fields of view, the commander of an anti-aircraft unit. I do not understand, explained that way.

Necessary to introduce a closed anti-aircraft installation.


7 Maintainability

Checking for maintainability showed that when replacing major components and assemblies meet requirements trianglesatisfy the requirements. At the same time, it should be noted that no significantconvenience is no quick release connections and valves for fluid retention and a large numberof bolted connections in the set of removable elements (MTO roof blinds, etc.). And we do not know! regarded as a drawback lack of equipment, allowing for an engine start is tanka, for the detection and troubleshooting. All the removed engine-transmission setting, we have the power plant. Here they have to stand up and running.

Noted a large number of the nomenclature used tools and equipment, which increases with time onservicing and repair. Quality and aesthetic characteristics of the instrument does not meet modern requirements.

Necessary to introduce the valves and quick-comequations, reducing the number of bolting swap items for export versions of tanks, which will significantlyreduce the time with respect to the replacement of main units and reducethe complexity of zit replacement.

Must use universal keys and accessories. Develop a special set of tools for the exsupplies tailors to meet the requirements of foreign customers. necessary to develop a stand that permits forstarting the engine out of the tank ..


8 The hull and turret

In overcoming the wall brackets front dust shields run into an obstacle and without dismantling preovercome the obstacle is impossible.

Require refinement of brackets to exclude upiraniya an obstacle.

When going from the wall is damaged exhaust pipe.

Need to develop measures to eliminate damage to the pipe at overcoming obstacles.


9 Observation

Prism vision devices significantly inferior in its characteristics instruments used on the tanks of the NATO countries. Location and viewing angles of prism instruments commander can not provide an adequate review at roundabouts roads. Who has more weight is right! devices are not equipped with filters of protection against laserradiation. Hmm ...

Night Vision mechanics - the driver does not comply with the requirements of NATO standards in viewing angles and distance vision (at least 1000m). necessary to develop a thermal imaging device as a nightof mechanical driver.

You must enter a complete set of export filters for theboards of laser devices for monitoring commandsDir, gunner, driver.


10 Means of communication and control

Communication and management do not meet the standardsof NATO there. One of the mandatory requirement is the presence ofpresence in each tank, a satellite navigation system, a systemcommand and control subjects, CICS. The tank T-80U, these systems are absent.

Need to develop the installation of communication facilities of western production, navigation systems, command and control, CICS.


11 The rubber tracked tape

The tank was equipped with The rubber crawler belt (ACG) with fixed rubber shoes. Tank, complete with ACG showed good handling etc, and on the chassis and in urban environments in all speed ranges. When driving on dirt roads and obstacles TTX requirements are satisfied.

Following the path of 600 - 700 km on highways and gravel roads (80 % - the highway, 20% - soil) began an intensive destruction onruzhnyh rubber arrays. Last march (350 km) Passes throughto the ACG Deal with completely destroyed rubber arraymi. When the motion observed strong vibration and heat caterpillar tracks. Due to the heat began the destruction of the internal array of rubber and as a consequence of the destruction of arrays of rollers. At the end of the march completely destroyed the interiorrennie rubber arrays more than a 20 Trakai.

Necessary to provide a resource with fixed ACG shoes in the range 1200-1500 km, and inability to provide indicatedzannogo resource to continue to work on the ACG with detachable towerpoppie



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sir there is Alot of difference between Northern Pak and the plains of Punjab and deserts of Sindh...
> 
> Abrams failing in the 90s.. Indian T-90s cooking their FCS & engines etc ... Apart from that the infrastructure constraints...
> 
> And even our AK project etc make Altay undesirable!
> 
> 
> But the good news is that AK will use Altays subsystems...like gunner,commander sights etc.



Of course, but the Abrams hasn't failed in the deserts since then, has a great record operating in the second Gulf War, a region which share temperature and other geological similarities with Sind and Punjab. The infrastructure of a new tank shouldn't be that big a deal. The AK project so far has yielded around 500 tanks, and over many years. Things need to be speeded up, also there is no reason why it can't run alongside any acquisition of the Altay.
I know about the sub-systems that is good news indeed.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
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## SQ8

Spectre said:


> The T-90 is the improved variant of the '80 once again with most of the bugs ironed out.
> 
> That is the basic difference between the two T series tanks, as to which is better, that depends solely upon the crews within the mbt and how well they are drilled.


And your comment is uninformed. The T-90 is NOT an improved version of the T-80. Rather it was an improvement over the T-72 when the Russians realized they could not afford the T-80 with all its features and instead needed a tank with the lightness and speed of the T-72 with the features of the T-80. As a matter of fact, the company designation for the T-90 was the T-72BU. 
Read up.

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## waz

By the way folks, the above data is for the older tank, but Turkey tried and tested the new version designated the Yatagan.
Has anyone got the data for the Turkish tests. I know the Turks didn't go ahead with it.
Malaysia also had trials and did not go ahead either. 
Thailand has placed an order but deliveries were suspended due to the political situation.

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## thrilainmanila

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> reported for trolling @Horus
> 
> You mean the dwindling IAF? where sqn levels are dangerously low ? I am sure they pose no threat


How is it trolling? Your post sounds like a joke of pal army had hundreds of M1a2s it still wouldn't make a difference without decent air over or a solid SAM network both of which are lacking so perhaps you should educate yourself before you start spouting bs


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## VelocuR

@waz, great analysis.



Hakan said:


> India already outnumbers pakistan with regard to tanks, they have 1200 good T-90's and they have 2500 T-72's which are better than Pakistan's older chinese based tanks. Now Pakistan is getting more tanks (T-84) that do not have an advantage over the T-90's or at least a significant advantage. Pakistan needs to get some Altays, this is what will give it the edge over India's tanks.
> 
> Check out the Greek Tank trials where they compared Leo 2, Abrams, Challenger 2, and T-84 Oplot.



Yeah, it is eye-opener, I am bit surprised that T-84 Oplot left out in last position.......but Pakistan just want very cheap and low cost saving which is most important than strong power reliable tanks. Have you seen many used parts from US' MRAP vehicles from Afghanistan, used retired F-16s from Jordan, Siberia's T-55 rumors, now Ukraine's T-84 Oplot, and etc?

*Cost Saving
Cost Effective
and.....Cost Minimum*

In the end Greece today is in financial crisis and chose Leopard 2 after all the trial testing. Pakistan's only care requirement is Cost or All-In-One Deal.

"The Leopard 2A6 main battle tank is a further development of the 2A5. It was greatly improved over it's predecessor and currently it is one of the best main battle tanks in the world. *The Leopard 2A6 outperforms the M1A2 Abrams, Challenger 2and Leclerc in terms of protection, firepower and mobility. The Leopard 2A6 and it's variants are currently in service with Germany, Canada, Greece, Netherlands, Portugal and Spain."*

*Greece Signs Contracts for 183 Leopard 2s, 150 Leopard 1s
*

It would be nice to induct Turkey's Altay, Leopard 2, or something to sort out our many old generation tanks and replace with new tanks, America did it, Russia, did it, China did it, Turkey did it, India plan to import more expensive tanks from foreigner suppliers but Pakistan did with low cheaper ones.

Sorry, I am just angry something wrong with Pakistan's policy, our best qualities used to be in *90s* now goes to cheap and poor machines and maintenances from Tanks, Navy, and armour vehicles.

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## Arsalan

Shall we consider this one step backwards? What i have studied about the system and what we currently operate it looks like that. Sure there are a few extra goodies this brings in but most of them are canceled out considering here we will be inducting a totally new platform, no to minimum component similarity with existing fleet and political impact!
@Horus @Oscar @Dazzler @Slav Defence 



waz said:


> Looks great, it's still being evaluated though right?
> I feel we are better off going with the Turks and Altay, which is turning out to be a beast.


that perhaps is deemed too expensive, but we cannot be sure about the price tag on this either!!
EDIT: Oh and it is most likely to be TOO heavy for our terrain at 72 ton



kaonalpha said:


> Al khalid stays


stays but not PROSPER


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## TheFlyingPretzel

waz said:


> By the way folks, the above data is for the older tank, but Turkey tried and tested the new version designated the Yatagan.
> Has anyone got the data for the Turkish tests. I know the Turks didn't go ahead with it.
> Malaysia also had trials and did not go ahead either.
> Thailand has placed an order but deliveries were suspended due to the political situation.



The data on the T-84 which you've provided paints a very sorry picture indeed. I'm uneducated when it comes to tanks, but I really do hope the Oplot M isn't as disappointing as the baseline T-84 model.

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## Umair Nawaz

Armstrong said:


> I thought the AK was already better than the T-90 MS....isn't the Oplot of similar capabilities ?
> 
> I don't know an AK from a Type 59 but what I was reading on this forum, apparently from credible posters, suggested that the AK was better than anything that the Indians had and there wasn't any hurry in going overboard with acquisitions and whatnot on our because our Armored Corp already had one-up on the Indians !
> 
> Now explain it simply as if you were explaining it to a Neanderthal (even though I'm not Bhopali  ) - What exactly does the Oplot offer that the AK, the AK 1, and the T-80 UDs don't already offer us !


kickbacks, corruption.........


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## Zarvan

TheFlyingPretzel said:


> The data on the T-84 which you've provided paints a very sorry picture indeed. I'm uneducated when it comes to tanks, but I really do hope the Oplot M isn't as disappointing as the baseline T-84 model.


Mr sorry we tested M1A1 and it performed miserable in front of our T-59. Mostly it depends on the man running the machine. The video of Pakistani firing from old Tank and hitting exact spot proves everything


----------



## Spectre

Oscar said:


> And your comment is uninformed. The T-90 is NOT an improved version of the T-80. Rather it was an improvement over the T-72 when the Russians realized they could not afford the T-80 with all its features and instead needed a tank with the lightness and speed of the T-72 with the features of the T-80. As a matter of fact, the company designation for the T-90 was the T-72BU.
> Read up.



Off Topic - Sir, I did say that I had second hand information and it needs to be verified.



Spectre said:


> Your comments are unwarranted. Both the tanks had different mission profiles.
> 
> This is a second hand information, may be some more knowledgeable members would be able to verify it.



Thanks you are absolutely correct in your points. I looked more and here is the history I found according to a Russian writer.

*Sunday, 5 April 2015*

Fierce competition began between Soviet tank manufacturers immediately after the end of the Great Patriotic War. The situation was akin to an internal cold war. In the late 1980s, the management of UralVagonZavod, with significant effort, managed to secure the permission to perform a deep modernization of the T-72 tank. This was the start of the T-90.

*Russia's First*
The T-72, Soviet Union's most numerous tank, was what is called a "mobilization vehicle" designed for participation in the second echelon and combat against forces other than the enemy's best. Its crews would be tankers with second rate training, therefore controls of these vehicles were simplified. The main drawback of the design was the fire control system, which was far from perfect. The new vehicle from the Urals was supposed to get rid of this deficiency.

The prototype indexed Object 188 was presented to the government for trials in January of 1989. The vehicle showed itself well. It was reliable in all conditions, including long term operation under pressure. The Object 188 travelled 14,000 km without serious breakdowns during trials. This was the range before major repairs required of it by its designers.

In 1991, the Ministry of Defense of the USSR approved the tank for adoption by the Soviet Army. Due to the difficult political situation in the country that ended with its dissolution, the final decision was not made until October of 1992. Object 188 was supposed to receive the index T-72B, but B.N. Yeltsin, Russia's president at the time, personally ordered that it should be indexed T-90. This was the Russian Federation's first tank.

*90's Insides*
The most important feature of the T-90 is the Irtish fire control system. This system was sorely needed in the T-72. The system includes an automatic fire control feature, night and day aiming devices, a ballistic computer, a gun stabilizer, and many other components. Due to this system, the T-90 can effectively hit vehicles at long distances. During a demonstration for foreign delegates, a T-90 driving at a speed of 25 kph destroyed 7 targets at ranges of 1.5-2.5 kilometers in less than a minute.

Irtish does more than just seek, locate, and identify the target. It calculates many factors that can influence a hit. The speed of the target, the speed of the tank, corrections for wind, atmospheric pressure, wear and tear of the barrel, these are only a few parameters that are used in the calculations.

The T-90 is equipped with a system of optical-electrical protection from anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs). This system tracks the launch of a missile and jams its control signal. If necessary, grenades are deployed that create an aerosol cloud around the tank, weakening and deflecting laser designator beams that are used to guide modern ATGMs.

Like all Soviet tanks made after 1954, the T-90's crew is protected from weapons of mass destruction. A special polymer liner with additions of lithium, boron, and lead protects the crew from radiation. Filters protect the air inside the tank from poisonous gases and radioactive dust.

*The T-90's shield, sword, and heart*
Following Soviet design traditions, the T-90 is small and densely packed. This is both a blessing and a curse. Due to the small silhouette, it is hard to aim at. However, a penetrating shell is bound to hit a module or a crewman.

The tank's designers aimed to protect it well. Aside from traditional composite armour, the tank received built in reactive armour. At first, reactive armour helped only against HEAT shells. Modern reactive armour also protects against subcaliber armour piercing shells, but not as well. If the penetration of a HEAT shell is reduced by over 50%, then APFSDS penetration is reduced by only 20%. The T-90 even has reactive armour on the roof.

The main weapon of the tank is a smooth barrelled 125 mm gun with a two piece round. Due to the automatic loading mechanism, it can reach a rate of fire of 8 RPM. The gun can fire subcaliber, HEAT, and HE ammunition. Recently, a new ammunition type was added: HE-shrapnel with an air burst fuse. This shell is very effective at fighting unprotected infantry and helicopters.

As well as traditional shells, the T-90's gun can also fire ATGMs. The ATGM guarantees a hit at 5000 meters. When the T-90 was adopted for service, it was a worldwide record.

The tank engine is a multifuel diesel. This means that it will run not only on diesel, but on gasoline and kerosene. Trials showed that only gasoline slightly reduces the engine's power.

The T-90 is equipped with underwater driving equipment that can be installed in as little as 15 minutes, and a self-entrenching system, with which it can dig itself a trench in warm ground in less than half an hour.

Over 20 years that passed since the tank entered production, but not very many have been produced. About 2000 units were made to this day, and about half of them were exported, mainly to India. The tank has yet to see battle.

Article author: Vladimir Pinayev


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## Zarvan

Armstrong said:


> I thought the AK was already better than the T-90 MS....isn't the Oplot of similar capabilities ?
> 
> I don't know an AK from a Type 59 but what I was reading on this forum, apparently from credible posters, suggested that the AK was better than anything that the Indians had and there wasn't any hurry in going overboard with acquisitions and whatnot on our because our Armored Corp already had one-up on the Indians !
> 
> Now explain it simply as if you were explaining it to a Neanderthal (even though I'm not Bhopali  ) - What exactly does the Oplot offer that the AK, the AK 1, and the T-80 UDs don't already offer us !


Pakistan don't have the policy of sticking with one Tank as for T-84 Oplot it would be replacement for AL ZARRAR and Type 69 and Type 85 which are more than 1500 as for AL KHALID it would come and keep coming and @Umair Nawaz Sorry no corruption and kickbacks here


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## Umair Nawaz

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan don't have the policy of sticking with one Tank as for T-84 Oplot it would be replacement for AL ZARRAR and Type 69 and Type 85 which are more than 1500 as for AL KHALID it would come and keep coming and @Umair Nawaz Sorry no corruption and kickbacks here


AZ will stay.


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## Zarvan

Umair Nawaz said:


> AZ will stay.


Not for long may be soon transfered to Para Military


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## cabatli_53

Hakan said:


> India already outnumbers pakistan with regard to tanks, they have 1200 good T-90's and they have 2500 T-72's which are better than Pakistan's older chinese based tanks. Now Pakistan is getting more tanks (T-84) that do not have an advantage over the T-90's or at least a significant advantage. Pakistan needs to get some Altays, this is what will give it the edge over India's tanks.
> 
> Check out the Greek Tank trials where they compared Leo 2, Abrams, Challenger 2, and T-84 Oplot.




If It is an arm race, The side who is going to play own card, should carry the situation one step ahead instead of repeating itself so I also agree that Pakistan needs a new generation tank which is going to affect the power ballance in region. India made a desicion and went for T-90 which is the latest tech Russia revealed. If Pakistan goes to a tank, which is inferior to T-90's, from a country having serious financial and security troubles against Russia, It won't make any differences in terms of militarily and politically. There are even some Russian members claiming that Ukraine can't build anything without Russian subsystems so They must order equivalents from either Turkey or Europe/USA for export.

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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> If It is an arm race, The side who is going to play own card, should carry the situation one step ahead instead of repeating itself so I also agree that Pakistan needs a new generation tank which is going to affect the power ballance in region. India made a desicion and went for T-90 which is the latest tech Russia revealed. If Pakistan goes to a tank, which is inferior to T-90's, from a country having serious financial and security troubles against Russia, It won't make any differences in terms of militarily and politically. There are even some Russian members claiming that Ukraine can't build anything without Russian subsystems so They must order equivalents from either Turkey or Europe/USA for export.


Sir sorry but you are wrong T-90 latest model is not even close to T-84 Oplot M from engine to other parts T-84 Oplot M is way ahead.



Hakan said:


> India already outnumbers pakistan with regard to tanks, they have 1200 good T-90's and they have 2500 T-72's which are better than Pakistan's older chinese based tanks. Now Pakistan is getting more tanks (T-84) that do not have an advantage over the T-90's or at least a significant advantage. Pakistan needs to get some Altays, this is what will give it the edge over India's tanks.
> 
> Check out the Greek Tank trials where they compared Leo 2, Abrams, Challenger 2, and T-84 Oplot.


For love of GOD T-90 latest model is still far behind T-84 Oplot M. Sir and India has only 700 T-90 till date and their Arjun is a failure of epic proportion and many T-72 lack fighting capability at night

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## cabatli_53

waz said:


> By the way folks, the above data is for the older tank, but Turkey tried and tested the new version designated the Yatagan.
> Has anyone got the data for the Turkish tests. I know the Turks didn't go ahead with it.
> Malaysia also had trials and did not go ahead either.
> Thailand has placed an order but deliveries were suspended due to the political situation.




Leopard 2A6 outperformed all Leclerc, Oplet and M1A1 tanks in Turkish trials as well.







BTW, I personally think If Pakistan revealed a request to order new generation tanks under a satisfactory technology transfer and If T-84 deal is not certain at present, I think It is Turkiye which is certainly going to play critical role before Ukraine because Turkey can't stay behind If the subject is Pakistani requests and never let the ground to others as long as some other factors (Money/Pakistani officials personnal requests/ political tendency) didn't put Turkey out of box so I think Altay has a big potential to meet Pakistani requirements until a certain signiture signed for T-84.

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## AUSTERLITZ

A 19 page thread without a link on the core issue?
Are we even sure this news is correct?
Completely inexplicable to me why PA would buy these instead of AKs at home if AK is what its claimed to be.

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## SQ8

AUSTERLITZ said:


> A 19 page thread without a link on the core issue?
> Are we even sure this news is correct?
> Completely inexplicable to me why PA would buy these instead of AKs at home if AK is what its claimed to be.



No official confirmation so I would wait. However there is a need for a new tank since the AK despite what it is cannot be produced quickly enough to meet the needs of an increasingly obsolescent armoured force.

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## Myth_buster_1

I think PA may upgrade T-80 to oplot technology and induct Chinese next gen tank as ak-2


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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> Not for long may be soon transfered to Para Military


please dont make such comments without thinking what you are saying. a para military force is called a para military because that what it is raised for. it wont be equipped with an MBT or any tank for that matter because it doest fit its role. at best its a 2nd or third-line force and at best will be equipped with light tanks or APC's , only regulars would operate the tanks like I said .. the equipment and the forces are not compatible. any obsolete tanks will be decommissioned or used for training.

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## Areesh

Irfan Baloch said:


> please dont make such comments without thinking what you are saying. a para military force is called a para military because that what it is raised for. it wont be equipped with an MBT or any tank for that matter because it doest fit its role. at best its a 2nd or third-line force and at best will be equipped with light tanks or APC's , only regulars would operate the tanks like I said .. the equipment and the forces are not compatible. any obsolete tanks will be decommissioned or used for training.



You are right. But I think FC Baluchistan does operate a few tanks.

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## Andrei_bt

Some video on Thai Oplot-T -


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## Thunder.Storm

*Equipment of the Pakistan Army- Tanks*
*



*


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## Irfan Baloch

Areesh said:


> You are right. But I think FC Baluchistan does operate a few tanks.


exception to the rule and I have seen their vehicles they are light armoured cars with MG. 
if they do have tanks then the personnel are from regular armour corps

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## S.U.R.B.

Few of the prominent features related to the hardware that can play a role here are:

1-Altay possess a Nato standard 120mm main gun.

Both T-90 MS and Oplot M carry the 125 mm smooth bore gun.

2-Both T-90 MS and Oplot M weighs about 50 tons with a manageable ground pressure profile. Altay doesn't provide us with this advantage.

3-On the other hand the current Oplot M model includes the 6TD-2E turbocharged diesel engine,while there an upgrade to 6TD-3 in under development.And we have got the experience to maintain/operate our T-80UDs.






Altay is a beast of it's arena.It does have got some catchy gadgets as well.Which can be purchased to be included on the next upgraded AKs.


If we suppose that the news is correct.Then it seems, the military is looking for a T-80UD up-gradation .To save some time and money for an upgraded AK, which can dominate any of the armored assault.
The Army chief in his recent visit to Russia was very much interested in the T-90 MS.So, logically they will like to have a comparison before they go for any of the two.

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## Dazzler

blue marlin said:


> did not no read any thing i wrote? i did not even mention the t64? to point i am making is that the t84 may be a good tank but the current situation in urkraine will affect possible deliveries. and also Pakistan is warming to russia and it would rathe side with russia therewith urkraine. yes i know Pakistan has received a lot of tanks from urkraine[320] the t84 may be a good tank but i am staying firm with what i am saying .
> 1. either they may buy some t84's of the shelf
> 2. buy surplus t80's and upgrade then to t84 // or merge idea 1 and 2 together
> 3. use t84 parts on the mbt 3000 to make it to pakistan's standard.
> 
> also regarding the power the Chinese tank has a 1500hp water cooled engine. but if idea 3 materialises Pakistan will go for the kmdb 6td3 which has 1500 hp as Pakistan is use to having Ukrainian engines in the t80 and the al Khalid



Nothing could be more difficult than what they had to pull out for our t-80uds, heck that order literally freed their industry from Russo's. They have the means to deliver the order if placed so no issues.

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## Andrei_bt

Oplot M carry the 125 mm smooth bore gun, also it has option with 120 mm NATO standart gun -

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## Dazzler

Hakan said:


> India already outnumbers pakistan with regard to tanks, they have 1200 good T-90's and they have 2500 T-72's which are better than Pakistan's older chinese based tanks. Now Pakistan is getting more tanks (T-84) that do not have an advantage over the T-90's or at least a significant advantage. Pakistan needs to get some Altays, this is what will give it the edge over India's tanks.
> 
> Check out the Greek Tank trials where they compared Leo 2, Abrams, Challenger 2, and T-84 Oplot.




* they don't have 1200 T-90s, rather about 500 @t best

* Oplot is leaps and bounds ahead of t-90 in almost every feature including fire power, gun, optics and armour and engine + transmission is next to none in this category.

* half of their 72s are night blind, lack a decent FCS and other electronics, can't fire the same ammo as t-90s and have faulty guns. Better learn something before comment.

* Altay doesn't bring to the table what Pakistani terrain demands I.e medium weight/ tested and reliable systems at an affordable cost and is too heavy for thar desert region. It is still 5+ years from regular induction in Turkish army. Wait for more years to see the first sale.

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## Andrei_bt

Oplot and t-90S protection -

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## waz

Brothers for those who are saying the Altay is too heavy or has too much ground pressure. It doesn't.

*The T-90 which is comparable to the T-84 has a ground pressure of 0.938 kg/cm²
The Leopard 2 which is comparable to the Altay has a ground pressure of 0.83 kg/cm²
*



TheFlyingPretzel said:


> The data on the T-84 which you've provided paints a very sorry picture indeed. I'm uneducated when it comes to tanks, but I really do hope the Oplot M isn't as disappointing as the baseline T-84 model.



Sadly I have to agree the data doesn't look great. Yes, it was the older T-84 model, but the newer model was both evaluated by the Turkish and Malaysian army, both rejected it. 
The only export order so far is from Thailand, and they have just recently started shipping the other tanks, after a suspension of quite a long time, due to the fighting in Ukraine.

Ukraine restarts tank deliveries to Thailand – source

It also gives us a indication of price, although I'd expect it to be more expensive now, this deal was signed in 2011.
An over $200 million contract for the delivery of 40 Oplot tanks to Thailand was signed in 2011.

That's each at $5 million each.

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## Dazzler

Armstrong said:


> Dazzler Bhai, if you were to tell a layman like me : What exactly does the Oplot offer us that the T-80 UDs and the AK 1s already don't possess ?



Faster induction, much improved technology over uds and mostly on par with AKs but is better protected and has new generation FCS and other goodies. Would be on par with AK 1 if not less but still better protected and can be bought in number s before HIT could produce that many AK1s which is a crucial factor. Let's see his things turn out.

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## Tipu7

Dazzler said:


> * they don't have 1200 T-90s, rather about 500 @t best
> 
> * Oplot is leaps and bounds ahead of t-90 in almost every feature including fire power, gun, optics and armour and engine + transmission is next to none in this category.
> 
> * half of their 72s are night blind, lack a decent FCS and other electronics, can't fire the same ammo as t-90s and have faulty guns. Better learn something before comment.
> 
> * Altay doesn't bring to the table what Pakistani terrain demands I.e medium weight/ tested and reliable systems at an affordable cost and is too heavy for thar desert region. It is still 5+ years from regular induction in Turkish army. Wait for more years to see the first sale.


I read every where that India operates at least 1200T90s...... and will increase it's arsenal further by T90MS......
how T84 is far superior than T90......??
And how we encounter T90MS in their arsenal??


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## Andrei_bt



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## Dazzler

Tipu7 said:


> I read every where that India operates at least 1200T90s...... and will increase it's arsenal further by T90MS......
> how T84 is far superior than T90......??
> And how we encounter T90MS in their arsenal??



Oplot m enjoys much comprehensive FCS, much better armour and gun+ammo and engine with high speed datalink capability SATCOM and others. T-90MS has plenty of catchup to do. There is no MS in Indian army as of yet, they are still looking at it. Even if they go for it, the ground is covered.

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## cabatli_53

Dazzler said:


> * they don't have 1200 T-90s, rather about 500 @t best
> 
> * *Oplot is leaps and bounds ahead of t-90 in almost every feature including fire power, gun, optics and armour and engine + transmission is next to none in this category.*




I didn't know Ukraine is ahead of Russia in terms of R&D and tank developments. To compare tanks among eachothers, It is required extensive trials. Greece and Turkey did it and compared Russian/Ukrainian armour technology with Westerns and came to a result in accordance with feedbacks but When It comes to compare technologies generated from same Soviet base, It is the countries own infrastructure, experience and R&D activities playing critical role to decide which one is better so In paralel to that logic, It should be Russian latest generation armour technology to be ahead of Ukrainian.

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## Dazzler

cabatli_53 said:


> I didn't know Ukraine is ahead of Russia in terms of R&D and tank developments. To compare tanks among eachothers, It is required extensive trials. Greece and Turkey did it and compared Russian/Ukrainian armour technology with Westerns and came to a result in accordance with feedbacks but When It comes to compare technologies generated from same Soviet base, It is the countries own infrastructure, experience and R&D activities playing critical role to decide which one is better so In paralel to that logic, It should be Russian latest generation armour technology to be ahead of Ukrainian.



you need little history reading my friend, a lot of it. Search alaxandar morozov and what he achieved for Soviet union before and after ww2

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## DESERT FIGHTER

waz said:


> Here is some data on the Greek tank trials, which involved the T-84 against the Western tanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The tanks compared included the M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2A5, Leclerc, T-80UE and T-84.
> 
> *Of these six vehicles, out of a maximum possible operational and technical score of 100%, best performing were: Leopard 2A5, 78.65%; M1A2 Abrams, 72.21%; Leclerc, 72.03%; and Challenger 2E, 69.19%. Next was the T-84 and last the T-80UE.*
> 
> *The Leopard 2A5 was the only one with a demonstrated deep fording capability, while the M1A2 had the best firing results during hunter/killer target engagements.*
> 
> The German 1,500hp MTU EuroPowerPack was fitted in both the Leclerc and the Challenger 2E and these two vehicles had the best cruising range and lower fuel consumption.
> 
> *The T-80U had the best mobility and reliability.*
> 
> Some shooting results:
> 
> Leopard 2A5: ~80%
> Leclerc: 65% targets hit
> *T-84: 47 % targets hit*
> Challenger-2: 40 % targets hit
> 
> No data for the T-80UE and M1A2. The Challenger-II did not use proper ammo, while the T-80UE and T-84 used practice rounds 3P31, which corresponds to BM15 at below 1.5 km but become unpredictable after 2 kms. The Abrams could not fire practice ammo and had to wait for 3 days before real ones were brought.
> 
> The T-80UE had an experimental T type transmission.
> 
> *The T-84 was considered to be somewhat inmature and had few problems: smoke grenades failing to work. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Test 1 : Slalom to evaluate mobility.
> Test 2 : 1000km run.
> Test 3 : 50km by night.
> Test 4 : 100km with stabilisation enabled.
> Test 5 : Emergency brake (Norm was 25 emergency brake).
> Test 6 : Optics stabilisation.
> Test 7 : Target detection.
> Test 8 : Target detection by night.
> Test 9 : First round hit probability (@1600m; target: 2,3x2,3m still).
> Test 10 : Firing on the move on fix target (40km/h; @1000-1200m; target : 2,3x2,3m still; 10 APFSDS).
> Test 11 : Evaluation of the precision on still target (still; @2000m; target : 2,3x2,3m still; 10 APFSDS).
> Test 12 : Evaluation of the precision of firing on the move on still targets (40km/h; same conditions as before).
> Test 13 : Probability of first round hit by night (still; @1000m; target : 2,3x2,3m 1 APFSDS).
> Test 14 : Probability of first round hit on the move by night on still target (40km/h; same).
> Test 15 : Evaluation of the precision on still targets by night (still; @1500m; target : 2,3x2,3m still; 10 APFSDS).
> Test 16 : Evaluation of the precision of firing on the move by night on still targets (40km/h; same).
> Test 17 : Probability of first round hit on moving targets (still; @1000m; target : 2,3x4,6m 20-30km/h 1 APFSDS).
> Test 18 : Probability of first round hit on the move on moving target (40km/h; @1000-1200m; same).
> Test 19 : Evaluation of the precision on moving targets (still; @1500m; target : 2,3x4,6m 20-30km/h; 10 APFSDS).
> Test 20 : Evaluation of the precision of firing on the move on still targets (40km/h; @1500-1700m; same).
> Test XX : Rate of fire for 25 ammunitions (still; @1500m; 2 targets : 2,3x2,3m still angle between the two 100mils; 1min; 25 APFSDS; pourcentage at least 90%).
> Test 26 : Emergency firing mode.
> Test 27 : Hunter-killer.
> Test 28 : Hunter-killer by night.
> Test 29 : Evaluation of the maximum range (4 APFSDS).
> Test 30 : Shooting the coaxial.
> Test 31 : Fording 2,15m depth.
> Test 32 : Smoke screen device.
> Test 34 : Changing tracks.
> Test 35 : Changing track pads.
> Test 36 : Taking out the powerpack.
> Test 37 : Taking out the power supply unit.
> Test 38 : Taking out the coaxial.
> Test 39 : Changing barrel of the coax.
> 
> Firing on the move :
> M1A2 : 17/20
> Leclerc : 20/20
> Leopard 2A5 : 19/20
> Challenger 2 : - (not documented)
> *T84 : 8 shot still and 3 on the move
> 
> *
> Night firing by night results (with 10 shots out of 20, on the move) :
> M1A2 : 20/20
> Leclerc : 19/20
> Leopard 2A5 : 20/20
> Challenger 2 : 10/10 (Challenger would not have shot on the move)
> *T84 : - (thermal failure)*
> 
> Firing on the move on moving targets :
> M1A2 : - (not documented)
> Leclerc : - (not documented)
> Leopard 2A5 : - (not documented)
> Challenger 2 : - (not documented)
> *T84 : 6/10* (remaining still according to the author)
> 
> Hunter-killer results :
> M1A2 : did not took part by lack of ammunition
> Leclerc : 13/20 (according to the author, there had been an autoloader failure in the middle of the session)
> Leopard 2A5 : 17/20
> Challenger 2 : 8/20
> *T84 : 9/19
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Part 1 (A translation):
> 
> Protection tripped the drive turret (control switched off for 10-15 ceKundu). In fact, when measuring the angle of heel of 17 °. schashita nastraiis called for tripping at 150. Committee to give explanations on why the stabilizer off control and customization protectyou relieve at work on the roll to 18 ° -20 °.
> 
> Long ago there was a conversation that would "zagrubit" angles of heel to stab. And the question of 20 degrees has long been settled. Laid down, probably on an old proven option.
> 
> Slalom
> 
> T-80U has overcome this obstacle without collision on the flags. It should be noted that since the passage of the test was carried out from the place of tanks moved in first gear, so the rotation iswere connecting clutch OPF and thus were noticeable jerks. Tanks Western firms take turns at all speeds smoothly without jerking.
> 
> And why the place? Yes, and not knowing the dimensions "envelope" is difficult to judge.
> 
> Turns on the spot at 360 ° on the ground and concrete
> 
> The T:80U performing the exercises in full. The Committee notedthis means that wear The rubber tracks at the turn on the concrete a minimum compared to all submitted tanks. At timesthe collar housing with a maximum speed of withdrawal is the tower from the stable position due to lack of driving power stabilizer.
> 
> Yeah, probably not from the "lack" of power, but from the response from the dealer managers pregruza.
> 
> 
> 
> Maneuverability test
> 
> T-80U performed this exercise in full of minianomalous time compared to all submitted tanks.
> 
> According to the results of the test committee said the T-80U in the beamShui direction. In full this test without remarks carried out only the T-80U and Leclerc. " It should be noted that because of the low-speed reverse in such exercises, the result is reduced, Tanks westGOVERNMENTAL firms have speed reversing up to 30 km / h (T-80U - 12 km / h)
> 
> And the hell 30 need?
> 
> Test 2. Making 1000 km march.
> 
> T-80U completed the march in full. In carrying out the march figures were:
> 
> 
> 
> cruising range on the combined route
> 
> (Mountainous, dirt roads and paved)
> 
> Fuel consumption on highway
> 
> current stock of progress on the highway:
> 
> on internal tanks
> 
> additional barrels
> 
> maximum speed
> 
> time full charging
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 350 km;
> 
> 4 L / km;
> 
> 
> 
> 412 km,
> 
> 562 km.
> 
> 80km / h;
> 
> 23 minutes (at a pressure of 1.5 atm);
> 
> 
> 
> noise from the engine and chassis - the data are not available, but for theappearance of a committee of the minimum from the selection of tanks;
> 
> The rubber wear track - after the march, wear rate of 100% replacement caterpillar tracks. Due to the absence ofthe second set of condition The rubber caterpillar tracks, the tank T-80U crawler mounted metal tape. We have no experience in mass production asfaltohodov. In the UAE, which drove his battalion on board (in Kosovo), then all 11 km the port is strewn with rubber.
> 
> 
> 
> maintenance time during the march and after withcompletion of the march. Committee recorded during technical maintenance:minimal smoothing of the tanks provided by:
> 
> 
> 
> According to the Committee of the T-80U has fulfilled all the requirements ofprograms to perform the march, and on such indicators as:
> 
> power reserve;
> fuel consumption;
> maximum speed;
> full charging time;
> exceeded the figures claimed by 15-20%. Excellent!
> 
> 
> 
> Test 3 Execution 50 km march at night.
> 
> T-80U test carried out in full. Excellent!
> 
> 
> 
> Test 4 Execution 100 km march with included stabilizer.
> 
> T-80U test carried out in full. Committee noted the reliability of the stabilizer. Excellent!
> 
> 
> 
> Test 5 Emergency braking
> 
> T-80U performed an emergency stop - 25 times (according to the program 25 times). Performing the test was stopped after 19 -the first deceleration, m, since the temperature in the gear box reached 140 ° C. After a 15 minute break execution - the test was continued and made six braking. When the temperature in the boxes gear about 150 ° C, the test run was terminated. Committee noted that this test was performed after 100 km march with included stabilizer. Other tanks, participantssponding in the trials, except T-84, this test was carried out without performing the march, that is, the "cold tank".it put!
> 
> Test 6 Stabilization of the visual field
> 
> T-80U This test is not performed, due to the failure of hydraulic transmission (GOP - 165) Lazhanulis!
> 
> Test 7 Target detection
> 
> T-80U fully complied with, with the result obtainedresults:
> 
> number of measurements in the range of minute-34;
> maximum range of measurement - 9100m; Here's your answer to LD!
> target detection - 9100 m;
> classification purposes - 3000 m; In my opinion, these figures need to swap (klass. and identification).
> identification purposes - 6500 m
> 
> 
> 
> Committee noted that the measured temperature exceeds 1,5 -2 times stated. Excellent!
> 
> Test 8 Target detection night
> 
> T-80U test carried out in full, at the same time obtained the following results for teplovizornomu Sight (Agave-2):
> 
> detection of targets - 6400 m;
> classification purposes - 4600 m; At the level of villains
> identification purposes - 2500 m.
> 
> By infrared imaging results were obtained:
> 
> target detection - 1750 m;
> classification purposes - 1500 m;.
> identification purposes - 1500 m
> 
> 
> 
> Note - Conditions of the test are close to ideal - clear starry night, clean mountain air.
> 
> 
> 
> 3 test firing
> 
> Plot to shoot a 4 track in the foothills of the mountains from a distance 2500 m.
> 
> Goals are located at an altitude of 100 -150 m relative to the location shooting, with a track rise 5-7 ° towards the goals.
> 
> Nature of the track - clayey soil with lots of stones and rubble, sharp turns up to 50-60 degrees, the pit depth up to 1,0 -1,2 m.
> 
> Mission situation:
> 
> old tanks M-60;
> shields size 2,3 x2, 3 m from the fabric material on the metalthe metallic frame;
> moving target size 2,3 x4, 6 m, the speed of motionof 20-30 km / hour;
> target for machine guns of various sizes,
> 
> for shooting at night used tissue target fordogretye hot air. At what distance?
> 
> To carry out fire at 3000 - 4000 m used these same target, with the position of fire moved from the territory of polyrut.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 9
> 
> The probability of hitting a target the first shot
> 
> Range- 1600 m. Purpose - fixed uandt 2.3 x 2,3 m. Shooting from the spot by one shot.
> 
> T-80U test carried out in full, the percentage of damage - 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 10
> 
> The defeat of the fixed target in motion
> 
> Range 1000 -1200 m. Purpose - fixed shield 2.3 x 2,3 m. Strelba tank in motion V = 40 km / h - 10 shots, shot - an armor-piercing.
> 
> T-80U test carried out in full, the percentage of lesions, 100%, the velocity of a tank of 20-25 km / hour (speed of 40 km / h tank does not develop because of the state highway). And in general, after 30 km / h. get problematic. If it is not me.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 1911 Carrying shooting accuracy
> 
> Range 2000 m. Purpose - fixed shield 2.3 x 2,3 m. Shooting from the place - 10 shots, the projectile-armor-piercing.
> 
> T-80U test carried out in full, the percentage of damage - 80%, with two falling into the center of the target, 6 hits in the right loweredge of the target equations. After the shooting revealed a grade slip withintact 1G46 on the device built-in test equipment to 0,25 etc. Aboutplagued by adjusting alignment sight 1G46 on UVKV.Unfortunately, it happens ...
> 
> 
> 
> Test 1912 Carrying shooting accuracy in motion
> 
> Range 2000 m. Purpose - fixed. Shield 2.3 x 2,3 m. Shooting tank in motion V= 40 km / h - 10 shots, shot - an armor-piercing.
> 
> Poluchenny result - the percentage of lesions - 30% (requirements committee-80%). After the shooting divestment marks the sight of 1G46 UVKV at 0.25 right up. Any adjustments in alignment withintact 1G46 on UVKV. Execution of the test re-manufactured Russian crew. Percentage of defeat - 20%. After the shooting divestment marks the sight of 1G46 UVKV at 0.25 right up.
> 
> As agreed with the committee allowed the re-holding test, but due to failure of the GOP did not hold.
> 
> After returning the tank to the park made test mounting the gun and sight, as well as verification of the stabilizer. The audit found:
> 
> produced by tightening wedges mounting guns;
> 
> Irrevocable sight backlash 1G46 up to 0.5 Right etc.;
> 
> after cooling the barrel and pulls the parallelogram drive 1G46 Brand sight of UVKV returns to its original position.
> 
> Test 13 The probability of hitting a target the first shot at night
> 
> Range 1000 m. Purpose - fixed shield 2.3 x 2,3 m. Shooting from the place - one shot, shot - an armor-piercing.
> 
> T-80U test carried out in full, the percentage of lesions,100%.
> 
> 
> 
> 14 Test defeat stationary targets in motion at night
> 
> Range 1000 m. Purpose - fixed shield 2.3 x 2,3 m. Shooting tank in motion V = 40 km / h - One shot, shot - an armor-piercing.
> 
> The result obtained - the percentage of destruction - 0%.
> 
> Andrew! My personal achievement at night (And it is in the mode of double "):
> 
> - Through the Agave-2 - 8 of 9 through Agate 9 of 9. D av = 1340m. Purpose - real BMP-2.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 1915 Carrying shooting accuracy at night
> 
> Range 1500m. Purpose - fixed shield 2.3 x 2,3 m. Shooting from the place - 10 shots, shot - an armor-piercing.
> 
> The result obtained - the percentage of lesion-80% (requirements committee-90%).
> 
> 
> 
> Test 1916 Carrying shooting accuracy
> 
> Range 1500 m. Purpose - fixed shield 2.3 x 2.3 m. Shoot the tank in motion V = 40 km / h - 10 shots, shot - an armor-piercing.
> 
> The result obtained - the percentage of lesions 50% (according Committee - 90%).
> 
> According to the Greek crew gunner when firing a motionlattice is experiencing difficulties in finding objective measurement of distance to the goal, the tangent to the target (shooting made in the modes 4,5 and 18). In the 4.5 at distances greater than 1500 m target size commensurate with the thickness of the lines of sight. Because of the dependence of stabilization at dawnZhaniya and vibrations of the gun while driving a tank gunner loses the target. Noodle!
> 
> The analysis of the fire control system to resultthere run firings.
> 
> 
> 
> Tests 12 and 16 and found:
> 
> in the manufacture of fire seen a steady withdrawal, reconciliation of UVKV right up to the value of 0.25 TD per every 10 shots. After cooling down the barrel and pulls the drive 1G46 positivemapping reconciliation of UVKV returns to its original position;
> 
> If left "electrical zero" - MSA shit, if lost its alignment - 1G-46 crap.
> 
> when shooting moving on fixed targets in the D = 2000 m with the size of goals 2,3 x2, 3 m (1.15 x 1.15 etc. etc.) from the T-80U and T-84 with four crew observed the stability of solutionsresults 03/02 hit. In this case, the first shell at the beginning toelbow gets in front of goal second shell - about 100 m from the beginning of a track-left goals, the third in the goal. I do not understand a damn!
> 
> The most probable cause - an incorrect algorithm for making corrections to the migrated velocity of the target (angle φ) and the lack of powerstabilizer sequence (slip of the tower at a shot at turning the correlationPusa tank).
> 
> Amendment of the deferred rate target produced aboutproportional to the rate of change of angle between the hull of the tank and cannon. On this track, with the shooting angle of the body relative to the horizon was more than 5, ° with the gun fromthe body with respect to when a shot has a decrease 0-2 °; it contributes to improper development of the amendment and shells offalling below the target; Mudita sensor roll.
> 
> Perhaps there is some lag vyrabaPipeline amendment. When driving on rough terrain is no grouping of hits, but in 4 races (T-80U and T-84) is visible to the stability of the projectile flight, depending on the area trails;
> 
> influence improperly making corrections to the migrated velocity of the target and may explain the better results shooting at night, because TO1-PA2 (Agave-2) is dependent stabilization, and therefore in the process of mining various amendments gun takes aim with a crosshair thermal sight and the gunner can not produce a sighting shot. The shot is made only when the target is on the cross. According to the analysis of the decision about how to disable the deferred correction speed of the target by firing a tank in motion. Disabling produced rupture of the chain (U7SH6/35 - SH42 / 6 - BV2HS36/19) in the cable assembly from the electric unit.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 17 The probability of hitting a target the first shot
> 
> Range 1000 m. Purpose - movable shield 2,3 x4, 6 m Firing from the place - one shot, shot - an armor-piercing, the velocity of the target 20 -30 km / h.
> 
> T-80U test carried out in full. Percentage of hits - 100%. Before starting the test readjusted reconciliation of UVKV taking into account the slip marks on the 0.25 so on.
> 
> 
> 
> 18 Test defeat a moving target in motion
> 
> Range 1000 -1200 m. Purpose - movable shield 2.3 x 4,6 m. Shoot the tank in motion V = 40 km / h - One shot, shot - an armor-piercing, the velocity of the target 20 -30 km / h.
> 
> T-80U test carried out in full. Percentage of defeat - 100%. Performing the test was carried out taking into account the disposal of reconciliation of UVKV at 0.25 so on.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 19 Conduct of fire on the accuracy of a moving target
> 
> Range 1500 m. Purpose - movable shield 2.3 x 4,6 m. Shooting from the place - 10 shots, shot - an armor-piercing, the velocity of the target 20 -30 km / h.
> 
> T-80U test carried out in full. Percentage of lesion-90%. Before shooting made adjustments to the alignment of light diversion.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 20 Conduct of fire on the accuracy of a moving target on the move
> 
> Range 1500 -1700 m. Purpose - movable shield 2.3 x 4,6 m. Shoot the tank in motion V = 40 km / h - 10 shots, shot - an armor-piercing, the velocity of the target 20 -30 km / h.
> 
> The test was performed twice. The Greek crew of the test is not performed. Percentage of lesion-60%. Russian crew of the test performed. Before shooting disabled amendment for the transfer speed of the target and made reconciliation with the adjustment to the 0.3 TD. (Pre-shift the aiming point). Percentage of defeat - 90%. Ie removed the "mistake of the day of shooting." And tomorrow, what?
> 
> Produced by the analysis of fire tests on 19 and 20 showed that pre-polnitelno errors fire control system is added and the inconsistency of practical flight trajectory of the munition ZP31 incorporated in the computational path armor-piercing projectiles (BM15, BM22, BM26). For example, at distances of up to 1500 m its ballistics are roughly equivalent BM/115, from 1500 to 2000 m - About BM22, at ranges of more 2000 m - Did not match any of the type planted in the calculator.
> 
> Thus, to deliver fire this type of weapon is difficult (requires adjusting the aiming point, depending on the target range). It's time to remove the practical shells. Save-with, damn ...
> 
> 
> 
> 25 Test Firing
> 
> Range 1500 m, The goal - two fixed shield 2.3 x 2.3 distance between the goals -100 M, Shooting from the spot, while 1 - min., Armor-piercing projectile. The probability of hitting at least 90%.
> 
> Rate was 6 rounds per minute. Requirement Komitheta at least 7 rounds per minute. The low rate of performance due to the application for firing practice ammunition ZP31, which has a sample of black powder and windless weather (can not target detection, after the shot to scatter smokyof clouds. Time to scatter the smoky cloud was not less than 15 seconds).. And I got on 27 seconds of dispersion pyledymogo clouds ... loading mechanism provided rate of not less than 9 you arean arrow in a minute.
> 
> Test30 firing a machine gun
> 
> T-80U test performed.
> 
> Comments of the Greek crew: the inability of the impact of fire with a machine gun NSVT, in motion, due to lack of stability in the horizontal plane. Shoot for the brand through a stabilized panoramic. Everything is better.
> 
> Test 31 fording. Broad depth of 2,15 m.
> 
> T-80U test carried out in full. The test was carried out with full installation kit OPVT. Committee was fixed quicklyand that ease of installation of removable elements of the EAD, as well as their discharge and conduct of firing the gun after Fording without leaving eki's page from the tank. Fine.
> 
> Test 32 test launchers "cloud-902B"
> 
> T-80U test performed. Committee noted as a drawback of theabsence of a solid smoky clouds in calm weather. The speed of wind at the test = 0. After the test there was a refusal hydrostatic transmission (the tank had not been able to turn) and was evacuated to a park.
> 
> Tests 6, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 27, 23, 29, 33 T-80U does not comply.
> 
> 
> 
> 4 maintainability
> 
> 
> 
> 34 test track replacement track on
> 
> T-80U test performed by the Russian crew, using a ZIPa tank for 18 minutes. Committee recorded the best result of all predstavlennk tanks. Fine.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 35 Replacement caterpillar tracks
> 
> T-80U test performed by the Russian crew to useindividual Niemi ZIPa tank for 1 hour and 45 minutes. Fine.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 36 Removing and installing engine
> 
> T-80U test performed by the Russian crew to useindividual Niemi ZIPa tank. For disassembly and assembly of engine load lifting means 2 ton (truck Greek apmission).
> 
> The dismantling - 1 hr 43 min. Installation time - 1 hour 20 minutes. A Leclerc - 30 minutes there and back the same ...
> 
> 
> 
> Test 37 Removing and installing the generator
> 
> Tashs T-80U test performed by the Russian crew to usethe ISP Niemi individual tank. The dismantling - 25 m, (???? Which of the generators? Maybe a minute?) while monThuja - 43. Committee marked the best result of all submitted tanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 38 Removing and replacing the PCT
> 
> The test was performed twice by the Greek and Russian crews.
> 
> Time of removal of PBC Greek crew -5 sec;
> 
> Time of removal of PBC Russian crew - 3:
> 
> Setup time FCT Greek crew - 17 seconds;
> 
> Setup time FCT Russian crew - 23 seconds.
> 
> Test 39 The barrel NSVT
> 
> The test was performed twice by the Greek and Russian crews.
> 
> Time to replace the barrel NSVT Greek crew - 21;
> 
> Time to replace the barrel NSVT Russian crew - 19 seconds.
> 
> Note - data is not the official results of the tests, as shown by foreign tanks
> 
> 
> 
> 1 Training and education
> 
> According to the officers of the Greek army, the most complicated in Obuchenii and operation of tank Leclerc. Tank Leclerc "requires more trained personnel for maintenance and repair of all before therepresentations of tanks. During practice the tank, "Leclerc" identified bykaz loading mechanism.
> 
> For the rest of the tanks is no information. According to the committee members the easiest to learn and acooking crew is the T-80U.
> 
> 2 Overcoming Obstacles and conducting sea trials
> 
> Test 1. wall 1 m
> 
> Tank Abrams MA2 "- head trauma Greek commander at the gathering with obstacles. The crew is replaced by an American;
> Tank Leclerc - no comments;
> Tank Chelendzher2E "- head trauma Greek commander at the convergencedes obstacles, utykanie gun into the ground at the gathering with obstacles.
> Tank T-84 - Greek crew members injured while trying to overcomenegotiated the obstacle. The wall is not resolved. The crew changed to Ukrainian.Ukrainian crew overcame the wall, but the gathering occurred damageof the exhaust nozzle.
> Tank Leopard 2A5 - no comments.
> 
> ditch 2,5 m
> 
> All tanks overcame ditch without comment.
> 
> slope 30%
> 
> Tank M1A2 Abrams "was unable to stop on the way down (the crew of the Americanican);
> Tank Leclerc - no comments;
> tank "Challenger 2E - no. was able to climb the slope, slipping gusenichnyh tapes;
> Tank T-84 - could not climb the slope with a stop (the crew of Ukrainian governmentInscoe);
> 
> And that's for you comment.
> 
> Tank Leopard 2A5 - unable to climb the slope. The head of the group protested the committee that the reason the test is notis the presence of traces of rubber from the caterpillar tracks of previous tanks. About thetest committee was rejected, because after the tank Leopard 2A5 "test performed T-80U and the obstacle was overcome.
> 
> 
> 
> Roll 15%
> 
> Tank T-84 - slip the stabilizer.
> 
> For the rest of the tanks is no information.
> 
> "Slalom"
> 
> All tanks are obstacles to overcome, the information shown on the time, while overcoming, no.
> 
> turns in place 360 degrees.
> 
> All tanks exercise performed, the information shown on the timeMeni not.
> Change of position
> 
> All tanks exercises performed, the information shown on the timeMeni not.
> 
> After running a test on the tank''Leopard 2A5 "replaced the gooseboundary tape and held again to overcome the bias 30%. In the second attempt with the new tracks slope 30% tank overcame. After the second attempt on the tank to re-make the change gusenichGOVERNMENTAL tapes. Same shit!
> 
> The tank "Challenger 2E replaced 80-90% of the shoes gusenichnyh tapes and made a second attempt to overcome the slope 32 degrees. Information on the results there, but after the second attempt ofreplacement plagued track tapes. Same shit!
> 
> 
> 
> The tank Abrams M1A2 "any fault on the engine, dismantled the engine. The tanks, "Abrams M1A2", "Leclerc" and T-84 after the test also replaced the crawler belt.
> 
> Test 2 Execution march 1000 km
> 
> In the process of committing the march, the following failures andserviceability:
> 
> Tank M1A2 Abrams - the lack of 3-shoe caterpillar tracks, stop at a forced march to the conduct of the commission regulationgauge works; And the reason?
> 
> Tank Leclerc - problems with the engine or box transmission, as in small halts (10-15 min.) there is fainterof the engine. At a big halt (after 124 km path) - regulates thegauge or repair work on the engine;
> 
> tank "Challenger 2E - engine trouble or transition boxproblems (could not keep going after the big halt, arrived in the park alone after 3 hours after the daily march of waspsexperimental tanks). Repeated replacement of shoes caterpillar tracks in the process of committing marches; overheated?
> 
> Tank T-84 - in the commission of the first diurnal march of the Greek crew after the passage of the mountain sections of the route has refused to continueto press the motion, citing the increased fatigue, the crew changed to Ukrainian.
> 
> Refusal speedometer in the commission of the first daily march. Studythe use of respirators by crews of foreign tanks, following the T-84, due to poisoning
> 
> exhaust gases.
> 
> Tank Leopard 2A5 - after a third of the daily march substituted 2 -th left and right fifth road wheels.
> 
> 
> 
> After committing 1000 km the march on all the tanks were replaced caterpillar tracks.
> 
> Task Team Leader of the tank Leopard 2A5 has asked the Committee to test for weighing tanks, since he believes that the tank "Leclerc" shows good performance on the march as a result of making it to the lite version. ... it put a neighbor Committee scheduled the test after returning from the march but the test was not performed because of limitedtest time magnetization.
> __________________
> 
> Sorry for the long data, but quite a telling read.
> 
> 
> Part 2:
> 
> In the process of committing a march established:
> 
> Cruising:
> 
> - Abrams - 365 km;
> "Leopard 2" - 375 km;
> "Challenger " - 440 km;
> 
> · "Leclerc" - 500 km (Without the two additional drums);
> 
> · T-84 - 450km.
> 
> 
> 
> Maximum speed:
> 
> · Abrams -70 -72 km / h;
> 
> "Leopard 2" - 70 -75 km / h;
> "Challenger" - up 70 km / h;
> "Leclerc" - 70 -75 km / h;
> 
> · T-84 - 65 -70 km / h.
> 
> 
> 
> Full charging time.
> 
> Abrams - 35-40 min.
> "Leopard 2" - 30 min;
> "Challenger" - no data;
> "Leclerc" - no data;
> 
> · T-84 - no data.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 3 Execution 50 km march at night
> 
> All tanks tests are performed. In the process of committing a march on the tank Leopard 2A5 "went down the night instrument mechanics - the driver, after replacing the unit continued to move the tank.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 4 Execution 100 km March included stabilizers
> 
> No information.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 5 Emergency braking
> 
> Tank Abrams M1A2 "-24;
> Tank Leclerc " - 25;
> Tank Leopard 2A5 - 5;
> tank "Challenger 2E - no data;
> Tank T-84 - 8.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 6 Stabilization of the visual field
> 
> No information.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 7 Target detection
> 
> Information on the tanks do not. The tank T-84 refused to thermal imaging devices, produced in France, the tank was not restored.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 8 detection circuits night
> 
> Information on the tanks do not.
> 
> 3 Tests on shooting
> 
> 
> 
> Test 9 Probability of hitting a target the first shot.
> 
> Test 10 defeats a fixed target in motion.
> 
> Information on tests 9 and 10, no.
> 
> 
> 
> Conducting the test in 1911 shooting for accuracy.
> 
> Test 12. Conducting shooting accuracy in motion.
> 
> The results for test 11 and 12:
> 
> Tank Abrams M1A2 - 17 hits of 20;
> Tank Leclerc " - 20 hits of 20;
> Tank Leopard 2A5" - 19 hits of 20;
> Tank "Challenger 2E-no information;
> Tank T-84- with seats 8 hits in Traffic 3 fallingof.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 13 The probability of hitting a target the first shot at night.
> 
> Test 14 Defeats fixed targets in motion at night.
> 
> In tests on 13 and 14 tank T-84 did not participate, due to failure of thermalNogo device for the rest of the tanks is no information.
> 
> 
> 
> Conducting the test in 1915 shooting on the accuracy of night
> 
> Conducting the test in 1916 shooting on the accuracy of the night in motion
> 
> The results for tests 15 and 16: Well, what can I say? See my above!
> 
> Tank Abrams M1A2 - 20 hits of 20;
> Tank Leclerc " - 19 hits of 20;
> Tank Leopard 2A5 - 20 hits of 20;
> Tank "Challenger 2E - 10 hits of 10, the move did not shoot;
> 
> Tank T-84 in the test did not take part due to the failure of the heatdiffusion device.
> 
> After the firing on the tank "Challenger 2E is produced forexchange gearbox.
> 
> According to the results of firing the head of the American tank Abrams M1A2 "refused to use training ammunition (and we have not given up) fightcurves ammunition were delivered within 3 days of the U.S. forces, stationed in Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 17 The probability of hitting a target the first shot
> 
> Test 18 Porazhenke moving target on the move
> 
> Information on the results of tests on 17 and 13 no.
> 
> 
> 
> Conducting the test in 1919 shooting on the accuracy of a moving target
> 
> Conducting the test in 1920 shooting on the accuracy of a moving target on the move
> 
> The results obtained in tests on 19 and 20:
> 
> Tanks Abrams M1A "," Leclerc "," Leopard 2M5 "," Challenger 2E is no information;
> 
> Tank T-84 from the place of information is not in motion six hits in 10 shots;
> 
> Tank "Challenger 2E returned to the test because of non-serviceability of the engine or gearbox.
> 
> 
> 
> Test probability of 21 lesions moving target the first shot at night
> 
> 22 Test defeat a moving target in motion at night
> 
> In tests on 21 and 22 tank T-84 did not participate because of refusal of thermal imaging device, the remaining tanks to no information.
> 
> 
> 
> Conducting the test in 1923 shooting on the accuracy of a moving target at night
> 
> Conducting the test in 1924 shooting on the accuracy of a moving target in motion at night
> 
> In tests on 23 and 24 tank T-84 did not participate because of refusal of thermal imaging device at the other tanks no information.
> 
> 
> 
> 25 Test Firing
> 
> Tank Abrams M1A - 8 in / min.
> Tank Lyklerk " - 9 in / min.
> Tank Leopard 2A5 - 9 in / min.
> Tank "Challenger 2E - 9 in / min.
> Tank T-84-Greek crew of 6 in / min., Ukrainian crew - 7.
> 
> After running tests, 17 - 25 American group has been called the best crew of the tank the U.S. Army to perform tests on fire. In-in!
> 
> Test 26 shooting in the emergency mode
> 
> Information on the shooting, no.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 27 shooting in the "hunter-shooter"
> 
> Tank Abrams M1A2 " - did not participate due to lack of ammunitionowls;
> Tank Leclerc "- 13 hits from 20 shots; 0.65
> Tank 'The Leopard 2A5 - 17 hits from 20 shots;0.85
> Tank "Challenger 2E - 8 hits of 20 rounds;0.40
> Tank T-84 - 9 hits out of 19 shots. 0.47 All the same ingleshey done. And it's good.
> 
> 
> 
> Test 28 shooting in the "hunter-shooter" at night
> 
> Information on the shooting, no.
> 
> 
> 
> 29 Test Firing at maximum range
> 
> Tank Abrams M1A2 - 3 shots hit out of 4;
> 
> Tanks Leopard 2A5 "," Leclerc "," Challenger 2E-no information.
> 
> Tank T-84 - unguided flight guided missiles (test execution terminated). Then, when shooting with two guided missiles at a distance 2500 m - 2 hits.
> 
> In the process of running tests on the firing of the tank, "Leclerc" zafika fixed three failure loading mechanism. The tank Leopard 2A5 " replacing track tapes. The tank "Challenger 2E denial weapons, gear failure (restoration was carried out in 3 days ), the replacement of the drive wheels.
> 
> 
> 
> 30 test firing of guns
> 
> The tank T-84 - refusal fire control system, on the other tanks no information.
> 
> After completing tests on firing on the tanks, "Abrams M1A", "Leclerc" and "Challenger 2E" was the repeated execution of some test shooting (no information on the results). Trying to prove that they are the best?
> 
> 
> 
> Test 31. Fording (the depth of the ford - 2,15 m.)
> 
> The test did not attend the tanks, "Leclerc" and "Challenger 2E. The tank Abrams M1A2 "came flooding of the engine performance test was prekrasheno; tanks Leopard 2A5, and T-84 to perform the test in full without comment.
> 
> 
> 
> December 14
> 
> When leaving the box after installation and first centerfold was found that there was no turning control of the wheel. On examination revealed a cut of the pump feeding the GOP. Feed pumps jammed. When viewed filters GOP found a large number of chips and damaged items yellow. The reason for the defect - failure GOP MP-280RU number 973011 (working hours in the tank 10 minutes).
> 
> Due to lack of facilities for manufacturers and developers of certified GOP to recover the tank decided to discontinue the participation of T-80U tank in the trials. Take the spare tire on the experimental build!
> 
> 
> 
> CONCLUSIONS AND SUGGESTIONS
> 
> according to test results
> 
> 
> 
> During tests carried out checks on more than 100 parameters. By all parameters tested the T-80U has confirmed compliance with the stated performance characteristics, except for the test rate (rate not provided because of the inability to make a shot to the dispersion of smoke from the practice rounds with melon powder).
> 
> 
> 
> A number of parameters T-80U has surpassed the alleged characteristics:
> 
> reserve of fact - 350 km when driving on the mountain, and dirt roads with asphalt (by TTH - 340 km on the highway) ,
> Fuel consumption on the asphalt - 4 l / km (TTC - 5-7 l / km);
> maximum measurement range is actually - 9100 m (By TTX-5000m);
> maximum speed to virtually 80 km / h (By TTH - 70 km / h).
> 
> 
> 
> Tender Committee noted the reliable operation, comparedcompared with foreign tanks, engine GTD-1250, transmission, loading mechanism.
> 
> Advantage in comparison with foreign tanks, is the presence of APU GTA-18A, which has significantly reduced the total fuel consumption by 1 hour of the tank systems ~ 60 l / h (total time of the tank is - 50% on the spot and 50% in traffic) for a tank with a didiesel engines without APU powercompletely 1500 L. with the fuel consumption is 120 - 50 l / h.
> 
> 
> 
> Starting the main engine GTE-1250 was carried out in 60 seconds, the other tanks, except tanks "Abrams", used the heater. And what was the T air?
> 
> According to the results of tests we can conclude that the waspsnovnymi competitors on the international market for T-80U are tanks Leopard 2A5 "and" Leclerc ". After the slightlywith respect to modernization, taking into account the proposals for dumping chainto us, significant competition will be a tank T-84 (Ukraine).
> 
> To ensure competitiveness in the foreign market work is needed to bring the main tactic - the technical characteristics of the tank T - 80U to the level of modern requirements.
> 
> 
> 
> Key issues to be addressed:
> 
> 
> 
> A hydrostatic transmission. Crude another thing.
> 
> 
> 
> The tank has not complied fully test program due to lack of reliability of hydraulic transmission (OSG).
> 
> Disadvantages:
> 
> When turning with a radius of less than 12 meters there are jerks, that is marked as failing.
> 
> When working in heavy traffic conditions reliability is obviously insufficient.
> 
> Unreliable control system spools the switchingof distribution mechanisms. The electric drive train control wound up on the CBA board mechanic driver together with other consumers, it is not permissible, because for any closure of theInstitute in these chains car loses control. must necessarilyoverlap with respect to this chain.
> 
> Is not sufficiently reliable box design zamykatefields and limit switches control the wheel. During operation requires constant attention and adjustment.
> 
> It is advisable to introduce hydraulic servo controlof spools distribution mechanism: that the call smoothly rotate at small radii. Yes, the witness had to lay the principle from the outset.
> 
> It is advisable to ensure the installation of back-up forwater, providing the ability to control the tank at the exit of failed GOP. If the existing control scheme, when you exit the building the GOP machine is not fully controlled, although a serviceable engine, transmission and distribution mechanismsleniya.
> 
> You must install additional filters, since in case of failure GOP hydraulics completely clogged products of destruction - a quality wash it after that is impossible,
> 
> Replacing the GOP field is impossible without applyingequations of special tools, jigs, stands. necessarywalk development of this equipment.
> 
> Not perfect and does not meet the aesthetic requirements of design control wheel. In the process of testing at the site of mounting the wheel appeared backlash, making it difficult to adjust the limit switches. necessary to develop a design helm, meeting modern requirementsNiyama (by analogy with the control tanks of Western countries).
> 
> 
> 2 Powerplant
> 
> The power plant has shown sufficient reliability and powersequence for all kinds of tests, but a clear advantage in comparisoncompared with the other tanks are not visible. Fuel asphalt roads - 4 l / km is comparable to the cost of diesel power plants of other tanks. Here is the answer to skeptics of the diesel-engine.
> 
> Fuel consumption on dirt roads and when driving at lower transmission rate of -7 and a l / km, which is significantly greater than the tanks of the NATO countries. Large fuel consideredis a serious fault.
> 
> Further work is needed to increase the power of the forcecurve setting, while reducing fuel consumption.
> 
> 
> 
> Three auxiliary power unit (GTA-18A)
> 
> 
> 
> During testing observed some nezapuskov GTA-18A after a break in a few days of sunbathing warning light "no oil pressure (the formation of an air tube in the oil system). Starting out only after repeated spins.
> 
> Need to develop activities obespechityuschih reliable starting GTA-18A after a long recess.
> 
> 
> 4 Fire Control System
> 
> The fire control system is much inferior to the precision shooting at ranges of 2500 - 2000 m tanks of the NATO countries. Required indicator of the probability that at these distances according to the standard target (2,3 x -2.3 M) From the place and go for armor-piercing projectile at least 90%. And we are laying ... 0.99 three shots.
> 
> Tolerances and errors in manufacturing, configuration and verification FCS 1A45 T-80U is 0,5 m on, that at distances 2500 m comparable to half the size of the target. For good results the total error of fire should not go beyond 0.20 0.22 ... etc..
> 
> Days to ensure the required accuracy permitted bydeviations should not exceed 0.25, etc. What is permitted? See above.
> Insufficient power totabilizatora weapons can not provide the required accuracy when firing a descent at speeds of 25-40 km / hour (Standard NATO) of - for the tower takes when turning the body.
> 
> Working withtabilizatora to overrun leads to an increase in time to manufacture a shot, and also reduces the accuracy of shooting. Stabilizers tanks of the NATO countries operate without reruns.
> 
> We need to continue work on implementation of the stabilizer increased power and accuracy.
> 
> Lack of automatic input correction for "elevation targets" dramatically reduces the accuracy of fire in the mountains. When shooting in a landfill (in excess of target over a tank at 100 -200 M, The slope of the track 5.7 deg.) Calculator work out the wrong amendment "on the migrated velocity of the target and makes it impossible to shoot on the run in these conditions.
> 
> Require special algorithm of the evaluator to ensure shooting in these conditions and provide automaticelectric input amendments to the "elevation of purpose." For the record - at Kubinka at Dstr-2200 elevation of purpose - (minus) 20m. And the fall!
> 
> Under intense rate of fire main gun (80 - 100 shots for a few hours) is more than 0,5 withdrawal reconciliations, etc. because of the curvature of the barrel and the influence netermostabilnosti drives and sight. Reduce backlash joints, variation in wall thickness and curvature of the pipe. In this we do ...
> 
> Necessary to introduce into the FCS sensor ensuresautomatic entry of developing amendments to the curvature of the channel the setla and netermostabilnost drives.
> 
> Fluorescent channel sight commander does not provide the standards of NATO detection and identification of goals and precision firing.
> 
> You must install a panoramic sight with a built-nym channel laser range finder and automatic input onrevisions to the conditions of firing.
> 
> TVP "Agave 2 " much lower than TVP tagosov NATO countries on the detection range of targets in difficult conditions, image clarity and usability. The required accuracy of firing at a range of 1500 - 2000 m armor-piercing shells from their seats and run for at least 90%. dependent stabilization makes it impossible to provide the required accuracy of the shooting on the move.
> 
> You must install RTA, which is comparable to the characteristictics TVP tanks of the NATO countries.
> 
> Night-sight channel commander does not match the trianglesatisfy the requirements imposed on modern tanks and does not provide the required range target detection and accuracy. Once again, see my results.
> 
> You must install a night-sight channel commander of the main characteristics to the characteristics of the night gunner's sight. Work to upgrade the sights gunner and commander should be made comprehensive.
> 
> 
> 
> 4 Complex "blind"
> 
> Complex optical-electronic suppression "blind" does not provide the response to radiation of the laser rangefinder foreign tanks of the Leopard-1A5 "," Lsopard-2A5, M-60AZ. Firing complex "blind" only occurs when irradiatedchenii with the T-84 ( Ukraine), a similar operation Origin ofhodilo and have a system installed on the tank T-84.
> 
> Require completion detection laser irradiation for the response to radiation rangefinders modernized and modern tanks of NATO, including those currently under development (range of response should be not less than 0,6 - 10,6 mm). The second step should be to develop multi-level sensors responding to all types of laser radiation and the radiation of radar stations in the milli-meter range. That's right.
> 
> 
> 5 Ergonomics
> 
> Noted discomfort after prolonged use because of notsufficient quality ergonomic seats (no solidGOVERNMENTAL bench seat gunner and commander, the lack of lateral support, as well as difficulties in adjusting the seat). There is no needto ensure the necessary conditions of life under continuous determination of the crew in the tank for a long time without logging off. According to the tender committee were significantly less space in the reserved amount in comparison with foreigneign tank, which creates additional inconvenience during combat operation.
> 
> 
> 6 Chassis
> 
> Comments on work sites chassis, except forNiemi ACG was not. When making long marches with painShimi speed on asphalt roads due to wear shoes ACG often had to adjust the tension of the gooseboundary tapes. Hatyazheniya gooseboundary tapes manually examinesthe Xia as a drawback.
> 
> Necessary to introduce a mechanism for automatic control - tension caterpillar tracks.
> 
> 
> 
> The disadvantages of existing anti-aircraft withknowledge - the impossibility of aimed fire from a poolof meta NCW while driving due to lack of stabilization, and also the overlapping fields of view, the commander of an anti-aircraft unit. I do not understand, explained that way.
> 
> Necessary to introduce a closed anti-aircraft installation.
> 
> 
> 7 Maintainability
> 
> Checking for maintainability showed that when replacing major components and assemblies meet requirements trianglesatisfy the requirements. At the same time, it should be noted that no significantconvenience is no quick release connections and valves for fluid retention and a large numberof bolted connections in the set of removable elements (MTO roof blinds, etc.). And we do not know! regarded as a drawback lack of equipment, allowing for an engine start is tanka, for the detection and troubleshooting. All the removed engine-transmission setting, we have the power plant. Here they have to stand up and running.
> 
> Noted a large number of the nomenclature used tools and equipment, which increases with time onservicing and repair. Quality and aesthetic characteristics of the instrument does not meet modern requirements.
> 
> Necessary to introduce the valves and quick-comequations, reducing the number of bolting swap items for export versions of tanks, which will significantlyreduce the time with respect to the replacement of main units and reducethe complexity of zit replacement.
> 
> Must use universal keys and accessories. Develop a special set of tools for the exsupplies tailors to meet the requirements of foreign customers. necessary to develop a stand that permits forstarting the engine out of the tank ..
> 
> 
> 8 The hull and turret
> 
> In overcoming the wall brackets front dust shields run into an obstacle and without dismantling preovercome the obstacle is impossible.
> 
> Require refinement of brackets to exclude upiraniya an obstacle.
> 
> When going from the wall is damaged exhaust pipe.
> 
> Need to develop measures to eliminate damage to the pipe at overcoming obstacles.
> 
> 
> 9 Observation
> 
> Prism vision devices significantly inferior in its characteristics instruments used on the tanks of the NATO countries. Location and viewing angles of prism instruments commander can not provide an adequate review at roundabouts roads. Who has more weight is right! devices are not equipped with filters of protection against laserradiation. Hmm ...
> 
> Night Vision mechanics - the driver does not comply with the requirements of NATO standards in viewing angles and distance vision (at least 1000m). necessary to develop a thermal imaging device as a nightof mechanical driver.
> 
> You must enter a complete set of export filters for theboards of laser devices for monitoring commandsDir, gunner, driver.
> 
> 
> 10 Means of communication and control
> 
> Communication and management do not meet the standardsof NATO there. One of the mandatory requirement is the presence ofpresence in each tank, a satellite navigation system, a systemcommand and control subjects, CICS. The tank T-80U, these systems are absent.
> 
> Need to develop the installation of communication facilities of western production, navigation systems, command and control, CICS.
> 
> 
> 11 The rubber tracked tape
> 
> The tank was equipped with The rubber crawler belt (ACG) with fixed rubber shoes. Tank, complete with ACG showed good handling etc, and on the chassis and in urban environments in all speed ranges. When driving on dirt roads and obstacles TTX requirements are satisfied.
> 
> Following the path of 600 - 700 km on highways and gravel roads (80 % - the highway, 20% - soil) began an intensive destruction onruzhnyh rubber arrays. Last march (350 km) Passes throughto the ACG Deal with completely destroyed rubber arraymi. When the motion observed strong vibration and heat caterpillar tracks. Due to the heat began the destruction of the internal array of rubber and as a consequence of the destruction of arrays of rollers. At the end of the march completely destroyed the interiorrennie rubber arrays more than a 20 Trakai.
> 
> Necessary to provide a resource with fixed ACG shoes in the range 1200-1500 km, and inability to provide indicatedzannogo resource to continue to work on the ACG with detachable towerpoppie
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, but the Abrams hasn't failed in the deserts since then, has a great record operating in the second Gulf War, a region which share temperature and other geological similarities with Sind and Punjab. The infrastructure of a new tank shouldn't be that big a deal. The AK project so far has yielded around 500 tanks, and over many years. Things need to be speeded up, also there is no reason why it can't run alongside any acquisition of the Altay.
> I know about the sub-systems that is good news indeed.


T-84 and Oplot are different animals ... T-84 = our UDs..

Here is a pic of T-84 and Oplot:
















Now coming back to AK -- did you ever count facts like our fiscal constraints ?

Yes Abram was operated in Iraq but do you think the soil here is similiar to Iraq ?

Have you not learnt a lesson from India's stupidity ... Apart from its flawed design,obsolete gun and other issues.. Another issue that india has faced with Arjun is deployment.. The rail networks can't transport it.. The bridges can't carry it ...etx etc...


Oplot is a good choice (which I have been barking since yesterday) because 60% of it would be produced in Pak... It will save us the logistical and training nightmare thanks to UD's! It will replace our fleet of obsolete tanks.. It's cheaper at 6 million (give or take)... It will save us valuable time... Which we don't have.

Coming to Altay .. It's a heavier tank (not suitable for us)... It's still years from induction (than Turkey will definetly equip its own forces first).. It's still very much under development... It would burden AK project.. Create logistic,training issues... It will be a time consuming affair...etc etc.


Oplot would suppliment our fleet it would save us not only previous time,logistic and training hassles,will give us flexibility,quick replacement of old tanks .. It would be more affordable etc etc etc! It will not be at the cost of AK project ! It is still a superior tank as compared to anything our enemy possesses!

Get Oplots with TOT.. Develop AK ... That's the best deal possible... But still we can collaborate with Turkey on further variants of AK ... What more do you want!

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## cabatli_53

Dazzler said:


> you need little history reading my friend, a lot of it. Search alaxandar morozov and what he achieved for Soviet union before and after ww2



My friend, It will be appreciated If you tell me How a country like Russia pouring money into armaments, revealing tens of different tank variants thanks to their base technologies/experiences/war feedbacks staying behind of a country like Ukraine struggling crisses inside/outside While having financial problems. If one guy caused such an advancement of Ukraine and Although Russia spent serious money/time but didn't achieve What this guy did to Ukraine, Then What can I say...All hats off to this guy.

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## Andrei_bt

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> T-84 and Oplot are different animals ... T-84 = our UDs..
> 
> Here is a pic of T-84 and Oplot:



It is (above) T-84-120 Yatogan with 120 mm gun and bustle autoloader 

and Oplot with conventional type aoutoloader like on T-84



cabatli_53 said:


> My friend, It will be appreciated If you tell me How a country like Russia pouring money into armaments, revealing tens of different tank variants thanks to their base technologies/experiences/war feedbacks staying behind of a country like Ukraine struggling crisses inside/outside While having financial problems. If one guy caused such an advancement of Ukraine and Although Russia spent serious money/time but didn't achieve What this guy did to Ukraine, Then What can I say...All hats off to this guy.



So why Russia buy electronics for tanks and their latest ATGM from the Belorussia and Ukraine, notice Ukrainian sight on their Khrizantema-S and Belorussian FCS "Sosna-U" on T-90SM and T-72B3

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## DESERT FIGHTER

cabatli_53 said:


> My friend, It will be appreciated If you tell me How a country like Russia pouring money into armaments, revealing tens of different tank variants thanks to their base technologies/experiences/war feedbacks staying behind of a country like Ukraine struggling crisses inside/outside While having financial problems. If one guy caused such an advancement of Ukraine and Although Russia spent serious money/time but didn't achieve What this guy did to Ukraine, Then What can I say...All hats off to this guy.




Don't we all agree that T-80 was the best tank in russian inventory ? And it was found to expensive hence the Russians choose to incorporate some of its tech into T-72 .. Which today is called as T-90?

T-80s were built in Ukraine .. Infact even during world war .. Ukraine was the most industrialised state of USSR...

The Russians have stopped building any more T-90 variants and are pumping money into Armata... Meanwhile Ukraine has developed Oplot ..
T-80-> UD (incorporating the systems of 84 - which was than under developmen),than came T-84 and today it's latest variant is Oplot M!

Ukraine isn't some under developed country it has great potential ... Ukranians shipyards,they are building planes,etc.

Yes compare to russia Ukraines defence industry is nothing special .. But dissing it would be foolish.. Pak even sought Ukranian help on AK.. Apart from getting the Serbian tank genius who buil the T-84 (Serb).

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## cabatli_53

Andrei_bt said:


> It is (above) T-84-120 Yatogan with 120 mm gun and bustle autoloader
> 
> and Oplot with conventional type aoutoloader like on T-84
> 
> 
> 
> So why Russia buy electronics for tanks and their latest ATGM from the Belorussia and Ukraine, notice Ukrainian sight on their Khrizantema-S and Belorussian FCS "Sosna-U" on T-90SM and T-72B3




Russia lacks some thermal signt technologies such as detectors and Those detectors are obtained from different sources including Franch SAGEM for their attack helicopters and maybe tanks. Most probably Pakistani attack helicopters ordered from Russia will also host SAGEM detectors but Ukraine is not also producer of those detectors and must order from abroad since there are a few countries which is able to produce them so Don't suppose that Ukraine is the main producer of Russian thermals. What Ukraine produces can also be produced/being produced by Russian industry excluding some key nano components...


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## Andrei_bt

state trials for Oplot MBT (2009) -

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## salarsikander

thrilainmanila said:


> How is it trolling? Your post sounds like a joke of pal army had hundreds of M1a2s it still wouldn't make a difference without decent air over or a solid SAM network both of which are lacking so perhaps you should educate yourself before you start spouting bs


Is it really necessary for you to prove yourself Indian by including IAf or India for that matter in PAk specific thread? 

I mean, can you not live without not including India in Pak relate threads for a day? how hard is it ?

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## Andrei_bt

cabatli_53 said:


> What Ukraine produces can also be produced/being produced by Russian industry excluding some key nano components...




So why so many years passed and they relay on foreign (now it is Byelorussia)? Now they can not buy anything in Ukr, cause of war. Of course Rus is very powerful country, but in certain matter of design and technology they still are not achieved level of Ukr, in spite of hundred times more defense spending.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Andrei_bt said:


> It is (above) T-84-120 Yatogan with 120 mm gun and bustle autoloader
> 
> and Oplot with conventional type aoutoloader like on T-84
> 
> 
> 
> So why Russia buy electronics for tanks and their latest ATGM from the Belorussia and Ukraine, notice Ukrainian sight on their Khrizantema-S and Belorussian FCS "Sosna-U" on T-90SM and T-72B3



The indians suffered with the T-90s .. The FCS,sights cooking up in the desert.. The engine and Air con giving up...

We on the other hand faced no problems with the UD's! Ukranian powers Al Khalid... Ukranian VARTA equips AK's...It's gun is based on KBA-3 .. And we are happy with them ...

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## S.U.R.B.

Andrei_bt said:


>



Wanna watch another one?







Cool eh?

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## ARTE

cabatli_53 said:


> Oplets were put into a strong field trials against Western tanks like Leopard 2A6, Leclerc in Turkey. Turkish officials know the minues/plus sides of Oplets. Altay is the product of such field experiences gained on those trials.
> 
> I am going to share the images of Oplets fielded in Turkey.
> 
> Oplet and Leo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oplet, Leo and Leclerc in winter trials in Turkey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oplet


no, this YATAGAN

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## waz

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> T-84 and Oplot are different animals ... T-84 = our UDs..
> 
> Here is a pic of T-84 and Oplot:
> 
> View attachment 237081
> View attachment 237082
> View attachment 237083
> View attachment 237084
> 
> 
> 
> Now coming back to AK -- did you ever count facts like our fiscal constraints ?
> 
> Yes Abram was operated in Iraq but do you think the soil here is similiar to Iraq ?
> 
> Have you not learnt a lesson from India's stupidity ... Apart from its flawed design,obsolete gun and other issues.. Another issue that india has faced with Arjun is deployment.. The rail networks can't transport it.. The bridges can't carry it ...etx etc...
> 
> 
> Oplot is a good choice (which I have been barking since yesterday) because 60% of it would be produced in Pak... It will save us the logistical and training nightmare thanks to UD's! It will replace our fleet of obsolete tanks.. It's cheaper at 6 million (give or take)... It will save us valuable time... Which we don't have.
> 
> Coming to Altay .. It's a heavier tank (not suitable for us)... It's still years from induction (than Turkey will definetly equip its own forces first).. It's still very much under development... It would burden AK project.. Create logistic,training issues... It will be a time consuming affair...etc etc.
> 
> 
> Oplot would suppliment our fleet it would save us not only previous time,logistic and training hassles,will give us flexibility,quick replacement of old tanks .. It would be more affordable etc etc etc! It will not be at the cost of AK project ! It is still a superior tank as compared to anything our enemy possesses!
> 
> Get Oplots with TOT.. Develop AK ... That's the best deal possible... But still we can collaborate with Turkey on further variants of AK ... What more do you want!




I did mention that the model in the trials was an older variant, it's in the post after. The fact still remains that its baseline predecessor did not perform well, so the issue arises on how much you can upgrade/modify in order to bring up to par with other tanks. 
I have counted in fiscal traits, and I'm not saying we abandon this tank, it's just that we should look elsewhere and run another acquisition. 
Going back to the Abrams, you'd be surprised to see how similar the fine grain sand dunes and top soils found in Iraq are to our Thar desert.
You are right about the logistics and ease of integration, I'm with you on that and it will serve our purpose well.
The heaviness of the Altay only becomes an issue with transportation, and that's over long distances. If it is stationed at the front, behind the canals, irrigation ditches and various natural barriers it would be a serious force multiplier,and to invest in the necessary infrastructure to give us an huge edge is a small opportunity cost, the same applies to time, training etc. The tank is scheduled for full operational service in 2018, that's not long away and the development phase is over. It's undergoing extensive trials. What you will see now is improvements. 
The AK can continue or maybe we could like you said see a fusion between the two.
Anyway, there is already an Altay thread going on and the two tanks are very different. This machine is being evaluated for the numbers and ease of induction. The Altay fits into a different category.

Anyway, this is just an evaluation at this point in time and the thread should be devoted to the OPLOT.

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## cabatli_53

Andrei_bt said:


> So why so many years passed and they relay on foreign (now it is Byelorussia)? Now they can not buy anything in Ukr, cause of war. Of course Rus is very powerful country, but in certain matter of design and technology they still are not achieved level of Ukr, in spite of hundred times more defense spending.



My friend, What you claimed on matters as a defficiency of Russian industry, is being developed in Turkey around 15 years ago. I mean Those are not space technology that A country like Russia lacks behind of Ukraine or any other country. The effectiveness is another issue to talk...

I don't have deep information about Soviet based technologies but I am just trying to understand some wierd points(From my percpective) with pointing out some lights to incidents...

-What they have revealed under the name of RELIKT is being developed to replace well-known Kontakt-5 modules. 
-What they have developed as Kalina FCS is being claimed as an equal FCS of western systems. 
-As far as I know, What they have offered as active protection system is the first one of the World along with Israeli one which is being used by own tanks actively. 
-Their situation awareness systems to be used on T-90's looks similar to What West is applying to their tanks.

In this circumstances, Claiming that Ukraine is ahead of Russia on many fields despite hundreds of times more defence spending looks strange to me from many sides.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

waz said:


> I did mention that the model in the trials was an older variant, it's in the post after. The fact still remains that its baseline predecessor did not perform well, so the issue arises on how much you can upgrade/modify in order to bring up to par with other tanks.
> I have counted in fiscal traits, and I'm not saying we abandon this tank, it's just that we should look elsewhere and run another acquisition.
> Going back to the Abrams, you'd be surprised to see how similar the fine grain sand dunes and top soils found in Iraq are to our Thar desert.
> You are right about the logistics and ease of integration, I'm with you on that and it will serve our purpose well.
> The heaviness of the Altay only becomes an issue with transportation, and that's over long distances. If it is stationed at the front, behind the canals, irrigation ditches and various natural barriers it would be a serious force multiplier,and to invest in the necessary infrastructure to give us an huge edge is a small opportunity cost, the same applies to time, training etc. The tank is scheduled for full operational service in 2018, that's not long away and the development phase is over. It's undergoing extensive trials. What you will see now is improvements.
> The AK can continue or maybe we could like you said see a fusion between the two.
> Anyway, there is already an Altay thread going on and the two tanks are very different. This machine is being evaluated for the numbers and ease of induction. The Altay fits into a different category.
> 
> Anyway, this is just an evaluation at this point in time and the thread should be devoted to the OPLOT.




Makes no sense ... Why induct 3 types of tanks? 

Develop AK !

Get the Oplots - replace old death traps ASAP with a quality tank with local production ... Why wait years for a heavier tank that is of no use ... When we can develop our own AK !


P.S: one in hand is always better than two in the bush!

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## Andrei_bt

cabatli_53 said:


> In this circumstances, Claiming that Ukraine is ahead of Russia on many fields despite hundreds of times more defence spending looks strange to me from many sides.



Ready to agree if you explain why Rus are not developed they own sights for their primary tanks and ATGM like T-90MS and Khrizantema and use Byelorussian and Ukr instead.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Andrei_bt said:


> Ready to agree if you explain why Rus are not developed they own sights for their primary tanks and ATGM like T-90MS and Khrizantema and use Byelorussian and Ukr instead.



You are also on that crappy ind forum .. Happy to see you posting here .. Anyways welcome to PDF my frnd.



ARTE said:


> no, this YATAGAN



Welcome .. Damm it's raining Ukranians today ..

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## Andrei_bt

cabatli_53 said:


> My friend, What you claimed on matters as a defficiency of
> -What they have revealed under the name of RELIKT is being developed to replace well-known Kontakt-5 modules.
> -What they have developed as Kalina FCS is being claimed as an equal FCS of western systems.
> -As far as I know, What they have offered as active protection system is the first one of the World along with Israeli one which is being used by own tanks actively.
> -Their situation awareness systems to be used on T-90's looks similar to What West is applying to their tanks.
> .



- it provides protection against M829A2 from 1,5 km distance.

Ukr ERA called Duplet protects from 100 m range from all 120 mm APFSDS
















-Kalina FCS includes both gunner and commander sights designed in foreign country - belorussia.

- also Ukr offered active protection system and no single tank in servise in Russia has APS, they remained in Ukrainian territory. This is T-80UD (T-84), like Pakistani ones with APS -









Also ne ones are availible - 










- Situation awareness systems to be used on T-90's looks similar to What West is applying to their tanks?
What do you mean ? Unlike T-90SM Oplot has panoramic commander sight wiht visual channel, maybe 4 chienise TV cameras make tank Situation awareness drasticly better )))

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## Armstrong

@Andrei_bt - Are you Ukrainian ?


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## cabatli_53

Andrei_bt said:


> Ready to agree if you explain why Rus are not developed they own sights for their primary tanks and ATGM like T-90MS and Khrizantema and use Byelorussian and Ukr instead.




My friend, It is Russian members that should enlighten the thread regarding Russian capabilities regarding thermals and their abilities. What I can point out is the general things and some critical subsystems/components and countries having capabilities of production such critical subsystems. 

For that purposes, I can list you tens of thermal sight producers for tanks, helicopters, ships from all around the World including Russia and Ukraine but A few of them controls the critical components whose exportations are restricted in accordance with governmental permissions of 3rd countries. Cause of that fact, I can easily say that Noone of Ukraine and Russia can't produce own 2nd and 3rd gneration thermal detectors and have to order from abroad. India is also able to produce complete thermal sight systems but have to order detectors from French like countries so Nothing special to build a block of thermal sights for rifles, tanks. Don't forget that We are talking about Russia. Russia is also doing What Ukraine does in thermal sight sector but As I said Noone of you produce critical subcomponents (If nothing changed within 2-3 years). 

Indian thermal sight housing SAGEM detectors

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## Umair Nawaz

Audio said:


> Too much patriotism and too little common sense.
> Done here, for real now.


actually Indians are also member of SCO but is now the largest importer of western technology in defence. SCO as of now isnt like NATO who has a joint command and armed forces of its own.


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## Andrei_bt

Armstrong said:


> @Andrei_bt - Are you Ukrainian ?



yes



cabatli_53 said:


> My friend, It is Russian members that should enlighten the thread regarding Russian capabilities regarding thermals and their abilities.



Show any on serial produced tank, as I said, not promo exebition single produced ones.
As you know T-90MS features belorussian Sosna - U GPS anf Eagle eye commander sight, also belorussian design.


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## cabatli_53

Andrei_bt said:


> -Kalina FCS includes both gunner and commander sights designed in foreign country - belorussia.




Do you have a source regarding that ? If Russia can't develop such basic things from sights to FCS like You claimed, What's the reason of countries all around the world ordering such big portion of land vehicle from Russia, While Ukraine is staying next to them ?

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## Armstrong

Andrei_bt said:


> yes



Welcome to the forum, brother !  

Our prayers are with the Ukrainian people for a swift end to the separatist insurgency brewing in Eastern-Ukraine so that Ukraine can find herself back on to the path of peace and prosperity.

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## Andrei_bt

cabatli_53 said:


> Do you have a source regarding that ? If Russia can't develop such basic things from sights to FCS like You claimed, What's the reason of countries all around the world ordering such big portion of land vehicle from Russia, While Ukraine is staying next to them ?





It is basically known facts, as the Earth rotates around the Sun, anyway Google or any other search engine may help.








SOSNA-U







Panorama Eagle Eye


I do not say it is bad
To by anything foreign,
But it is not Ukraine which buys sights from Russia, actually Russia did.
So it is not correct to say Rus with T-980MS has any achievements.



Armstrong said:


> Welcome to the forum, brother !
> 
> Our prayers are with the Ukrainian people for a swift end to the separatist insurgency brewing in Eastern-Ukraine so that Ukraine can find herself back on to the path of peace and prosperity.



Thanks for this words dear friend, hope we will find peace in the Ukraine as soon as possible and for common prosperity.

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## cabatli_53

If the statements Ukrainian members claimed regarding Russian land vehicle sector is true, Then Turkish contactors should crush Russian vehicles one by one joined into same tenders along with Turkish vehicles. What Russia can't produce in 2015, are being developed 10-15 years ago in my country. I know their big defficiencies regarding thermal subsystem sector but I didn't suppose such a big gaps on basic sight and FCS (If true). Really interesting... It is really hard to believe since We are talking about Russia...

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## Andrei_bt

cabatli_53 said:


> If the statements Ukrainian members claimed regarding Russian land vehicle sector is true, Then Turkish contactors should crush Russian vehicles one by one joined into same tenders along with Turkish vehicles. What Russia can't produce in 2015, are being developed 15 years ago in my country. I know their big defficiencies regarding thermal subsystem sector but I didn't suppose such a big gaps on basic sight and FCS (If true). Really interesting... It is really hard to believe since We are talking about Russia...




Maybe they first have to participate in at least one of them?

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## cabatli_53

Andrei_bt said:


> Maybe they first have to participate in at least one of them?





> *Under the agreement, Ukraine's rocket, space, and defence companies will be able to participate in joint projects with Turkish industry, with Turkey proposing a future framework agreement with Ukroboronprom and the Ukrainian government's space agency.*
> 
> Other agreements also included the joint development of *aeroengines* between Ukraine's Ivchenko-Progress and *Turkish Engine Industries, and joint development projects covering radar and communication systems, armoured vehicles, and the Turkish Altay main battle tank programme.*
> 
> Turkey, Ukraine announce defence industrial collaboration - IHS Jane's 360



Having any details about this news my friend ?

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## Malik Alashter

Zarvan said:


> Sir sorry but you are wrong T-90 latest model is not even close to T-84 Oplot M from engine to other parts T-84 Oplot M is way ahead.


Based on what you think the T-90 is not close to oplot-m.


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## Blue Marlin

Dazzler said:


> Nothing could be more difficult than what they had to pull out for our t-80uds, heck that order literally freed their industry from Russo's. They have the means to deliver the order if placed so no issues.


yes i know urkraine has built it own capabilities to build tanks to complete the pakistan tank order. urkraine now has the capabilities to build welded turrets and others. urkraine current situation may complicate things and also it will complicate relations with russia


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## Amaa'n

not sure about the fourth one....am still trying to find out.....unfortunately am away at work for next few weeks, so no access to person....


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We have around 2000 Type-59s,62s,85s to replace.
> 
> 
> AK project although a success (with it being exported to several countries ..I.E: KSA, export versions to Peru,Myanmar,Bangladesh etc) can't be Chunned in larger numbers -- 50 AKs come off the production line each year.
> 
> And we need to replace old obsolete sh1t fast. Ukranians Oplot not only offers us commonality with our existing fleet of UDs,but they are offering us 60% production.... probably cheaper rates,and a nice tank. I doubt anybody woul refuse that.
> 
> @Audio. Russian MS was also a contender.
> 
> 
> 
> No idea .. Probably have to wait till 2016... For the AK with 6 major upgrades...
> 
> 
> .....
> 
> 
> 
> @balixd what were the contenders :
> 
> Oplot
> MBT-3000
> MS
> 
> the fourth?

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## Zarvan

Malik Alashter said:


> Based on what you think the T-90 is not close to oplot-m.


From engine to all its features Oplot M is far more advanced even Russians are not to happy with T-90



balixd said:


> not sure about the fourth one....am still trying to find out.....unfortunately am away at work for next few weeks, so no access to person....


According to @kaonalpha T-90 MS and another Tank will arrive in December for tests. He is not telling if Oplot M is already selected, than why are they coming ?


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## ssethii

Suddenly the Russian products have become junk and Chinese ones are out of competition. All hail Ukraine(PDF).
But if I remember correctly Russians swept through their lands and they couldn't fire a damn bullet. 
So much for their military prowess over Russia.

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## Zarvan

ssethii said:


> Suddenly the Russian products have become junk and Chinese ones are out of competition. All hail Ukraine(PDF).
> But if I remember correctly Russians swept through their lands and they couldn't fire a damn bullet.
> So much for their military prowess over Russia.


It's not neccassry that a country with really good defence industry and products will also have really good Armed Forces.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ssethii said:


> Suddenly the Russian products have become junk and Chinese ones are out of competition. All hail Ukraine(PDF).
> But if I remember correctly Russians swept through their lands and they couldn't fire a damn bullet.
> So much for their military prowess over Russia.




It isn't about prowess .. Germany captured France in what? 

You gotta give credit where it is due... Russians themselves are using ukranian systems in their tanks ... They have also stopped upgrading their t-90s (which if you know didn't work real good in india).... Instead they have chosen the Armata... The Ukranians on the other have developed Oplot based on the most modern and expensive soviet tank the T-80.. Whose tech was used to upgrade the t-72 aka t-90.

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## Osmanovic

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
​Great looking tank, unfortunately we have not see an official announcement.

Some of the brothers have shown statistics regarding the Oplot from Greek Tank Trials, and there has been some information released regarding the trials it has undertaken in Turkey. The results are not the best however the integration of Turkish optics and other subsystems would be a good idea and could give this tank a great advantage over the tanks fielded by India. 

_"Aselsan has supplied sighting and other sub-systems for Pakistan's Al-Zarrar/upgraded Type-59 tanks and Ukrainian-supplied T-80UD, and transferred radio design and manufacture technology."_
_Can not post links yet, from defense news_

Some Pakistani Tanks already have Turkish sub systems so I don't see why fitting them onto the Oplot is out of the question. This would grant the Pakistani Army tanks that can operate on its own infrastructure (Bridges, narrow streets) while having western style advanced subsystems.

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## Armstrong

Osmanovic said:


> بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
> ​Great looking tank, unfortunately we have not see an official announcement.
> 
> Some of the brothers have shown statistics regarding the Oplot from Greek Tank Trials, and there has been some information released regarding the trials it has undertaken in Turkey. The results are not the best however the integration of Turkish optics and other subsystems would be a good idea and could give this tank a great advantage over the tanks fielded by India.
> 
> _"Aselsan has supplied sighting and other sub-systems for Pakistan's Al-Zarrar/upgraded Type-59 tanks and Ukrainian-supplied T-80UD, and transferred radio design and manufacture technology."_
> _Can not post links yet, from defense news_
> 
> Some Pakistani Tanks already have Turkish sub systems so I don't see why fitting them onto the Oplot is out of the question. This would grant the Pakistani Army tanks that can operate on its own infrastructure (Bridges, narrow streets) while having western style advanced subsystems.



Are you really Bosnian ?

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## ssethii

This picture speaks for itself. @Zarvan (if I remember correctly you previously had fetish with Russian products) @DESERT FIGHTER


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## Hakan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> india as of right now is stuck with 500 T-90S.
> 1700+ T-72s (without night visions and bursting canons)
> And 118_24 Arjun's.
> 
> 
> Pak has an EDGE.. Our AK-I is much better than their T-90s.. They bought T-90s to compete with our UDs !
> 
> 
> Pak tank fleet :
> 
> 600 AK-I's
> 325 UDs (upgraded)
> 550+ AZs
> 500-600 Type-85IIAPs (We're modified variants produced by Pak)
> Etc etc!
> 
> 
> Oplots have an advantage over anything india has... AK-I itself beats T-90 on pure specs !
> 
> As for Altay nope... We don't need that... When we have our own AK Project.. The smartest thing (which is being done) is getting subsystems if Altay... According to HIT officials they are going for Turkish systems to equip AK.. Which till now has been using French systems like Matis etc.. Turkish ones are a little cheaper and on par with French ones... That's an advantage in itself.
> 
> 
> Oplots share similarities with out UDs or 84s.. With 60% ToT that's another advantage.
> 
> P.S: Altay is useless in our terrain ... Specially in Punjab and Sindh.. Apart from the soil.. Our canal systems,rails,bridges cant support such a heavy tank...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir there is Alot of difference between Northern Pak and the plains of Punjab and deserts of Sindh...
> 
> Abrams failing in the 90s.. Indian T-90s cooking their FCS & engines etc ... Apart from that the infrastructure constraints...
> 
> And even our AK project etc make Altay undesirable!
> 
> 
> But the good news is that AK will use Altays subsystems...like gunner,commander sights etc.


Im not an expert on indian tank force but it looks like they are doing some upgrades:

1,600 Indian T-72s Slated for Night Vision Upgrades | Defense Update:

India to replace bursting T-72 tank barrels under Rs 1,500 cr deal with Russia - timesofindia-economictimes

Anyway this purchase T-84 purchase is not bad, I just want to make myself clear on that point and I agree with @Osmanovic's points.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Osmanovic said:


> بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
> ​Great looking tank, unfortunately we have not see an official announcement.
> 
> Some of the brothers have shown statistics regarding the Oplot from Greek Tank Trials, and there has been some information released regarding the trials it has undertaken in Turkey. The results are not the best however the integration of Turkish optics and other subsystems would be a good idea and could give this tank a great advantage over the tanks fielded by India.
> 
> _"Aselsan has supplied sighting and other sub-systems for Pakistan's Al-Zarrar/upgraded Type-59 tanks and Ukrainian-supplied T-80UD, and transferred radio design and manufacture technology."_
> _Can not post links yet, from defense news_
> 
> Some Pakistani Tanks already have Turkish sub systems so I don't see why fitting them onto the Oplot is out of the question. This would grant the Pakistani Army tanks that can operate on its own infrastructure (Bridges, narrow streets) while having western style advanced subsystems.




No AZ's are using italian Thetis .. AK uses French .. But according to HIT they are planning to get Turkish sights for AK (which is using Matis etx as of right now)... Which I believe is a good thing.. We all here would love to see more cooperation with Turkey.

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## ssethii

Armstrong said:


> Are you really Bosnian ?

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## Osmanovic

Armstrong said:


> Are you really Bosnian ?


I am 2nd generation in the U.S. I have never been to Bosnia and I don't even speak the language, but thats not important. The soul is what is important.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ssethii said:


> This picture speaks for itself. @Zarvan (if I remember correctly you previously had fetish with Russian products) @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> View attachment 237130



Because it was EXPENSIVE.. And produced in Ukraine (not russia)... The Russians later chose to upgrade the t-72 instead of getting more t-80s.. They incorporated several tech from t-80 into t-72 which became known as t-90.

Here is the t-80






UD with 84 turret :








Oplot M

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## ssethii

ssethii said:


>


Bhai jan itne important discussion ke beech chit chat, ruins the mood and tempo of the thread.


----------



## InUA

Original video from the AirCam




Oplot-m Royal Thai Army

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## ssethii

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> *Because it was EXPENSIVE*.. And produced in Ukraine (not russia)... The Russians later chose to upgrade the t-72 instead of getting more t-80s.. They incorporated several tech from t-80 into t-72 which became known as t-90.


NO because it suits your argument.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Osmanovic said:


> I am 2nd generation in the U.S. I have never been to Bosnia and I don't even speak the language, but thats not important. The soul is what is important.



Im using my cellphone .. Do couldn't see your flags... So let me welcome you brother... It's nice to have you with us... We had a few Bosnian members who aren't active here any more. Khush amdeed.



ssethii said:


> NO because it suits your argument.



Knock yourself out;

T-80 Standard Tank: The Soviet Army's Last Armored Champion - Steven J Zaloga - Google Books


Tank Spotter's Guide - The Tank Museum - Google Books

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## Osmanovic

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Im using my cellphone .. Do couldn't see your flags... So let me welcome you brother... It's nice to have you with us... We had a few Bosnian members who aren't active here any more. Khush amdeed.


Shukria

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## C130

Pakistan should look into acquiring BTR-4 and An-70 as well

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Osmanovic said:


> Shukria

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## C130

VelocuR said:


> Nonsense, bullshit.
> 
> Hope Pakistan should *NOT* go ahead with Ukraine's junks, so better stick with China or Turkey's Altay.




 are you paid by the Chinese 


Oplot is superior than China export tanks. they are T-72M tier.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

C130 said:


> Pakistan should look into acquiring BTR-4 and An-70 as well



They are looking at Lazar II and VN - snow leopard.

Apart from buildings dragoon IFV variants under license from BAE.

Also recieved 400+ M117 with auto turrets.

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## ssethii

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Knock yourself out;
> 
> T-80 Standard Tank: The Soviet Army's Last Armored Champion - Steven J Zaloga - Google Books
> 
> 
> Tank Spotter's Guide - The Tank Museum - Google Books


I am not an expert to say that it's inferior or something, Russians must have their reasons to choose t-72 over t-80. It might have been star of it's time too but they are talking about retiring and we are talking about induction and joint production of the type at the same time.


----------



## Armstrong

Osmanovic said:


> I am 2nd generation in the U.S. I have never been to Bosnia and I don't even speak the language, but thats not important. The soul is what is important.



Welcome to the forum, brother !  

How is Pakistan viewed with the Bosnian community !


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

C130 said:


> are you paid by the Chinese
> 
> 
> Oplot is superior than China export tanks. they are T-72M tier.



T-72 m was an export model produced in 85.. Dude even the soviet t-80 would beat t-72s arse ... 

Check out Oplots specs.


----------



## C130

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> T-72 m was an export model produced in 85.. Dude even the soviet t-80 would beat t-72s arse ...
> 
> Check out Oplots specs.



T-72B is a beast but T-72M or Ural is crap







it surpasses the T-80U in protection,

Oplot is like a Super T-80


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## Umair Nawaz

balixd said:


> not sure about the fourth one....am still trying to find out.....unfortunately am away at work for next few weeks, so no access to person....


Russian T80 or Type 99G.


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## Zarvan

ssethii said:


> This picture speaks for itself. @Zarvan (if I remember correctly you previously had fetish with Russian products) @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> View attachment 237130


Stop quoting wikkipedia T-84 Oplot M is a latest Tank the T-80 they are withdrawing Russian product so know the difference mate.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They are looking at Lazar II and VN - snow leopard.
> 
> Apart from buildings dragoon IFV variants under license from BAE.
> 
> Also recieved 400+ M117 with auto turrets.


We were also interested in VN1 from Norinco what about that ?


----------



## ssethii

Zarvan said:


> Stop quoting wikkipedia T-84 Oplot M is a latest Tank the T-80 they are withdrawing Russian product so know the difference mate.


If something is based on another than it's not new unless the latter is redefined and not attributed as an upgrade.


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## Zarvan

ssethii said:


> If something is based on another than it's not new unless the latter is redefined and not attributed as an upgrade.


No it's not upgrade it is pretty much new beast. As for Russia they are not happy with T-90 even the most latest model of T-90 is way behind T-84 Oplot M.


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## ssethii

Zarvan said:


> *1.No it's not upgrade it is pretty much new beast.
> 
> 2.As for Russia they are not happy with T-90 even the most latest model of T-90 is way behind T-84 Oplot M.*


Care to give proof of these two points you just made and bury this debate once and for all.


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## Zarvan

ssethii said:


> Care to give proof of these two points you just made and bury this debate once and for all.


T-90MS Main Battle Tank - Army Technology
Oplot-M Main Battle Tank (MBT) - Army Technology
Read here from engine to to ammunition to speed and Gun and other things T-84 Oplot M is far better


----------



## ssethii

Zarvan said:


> T-90MS Main Battle Tank - Army Technology
> Oplot-M Main Battle Tank (MBT) - Army Technology
> Read here from engine to to ammunition to speed and Gun and other things T-84 Oplot M is far better


Just quote the relevant stuff here in bullets for the ease of the readers.
Thanks.


----------



## Zarvan

ssethii said:


> Just quote the relevant stuff here in bullets for the ease of the readers.
> Thanks.


T-90 latest model has 1130 HP engine T-84 Oplot-M we are getting has 1500 HP engine T-90 can carry 40 rounds and T-84 Oplot-M can carry 48. T-84 Oplot-M can also fire latest Anti Tank Guided ammunition

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## VelocuR

C130 said:


> are you paid by the Chinese
> 
> 
> Oplot is superior than China export tanks. they are T-72M tier.



No bro. Keep in mind Pakistan has 85% technology from China, almost all Pakistan is satisfied with them. 

We are already inducting world's worst failed helicopter called Z-10 and Z-9 after testing T-129, Mi-28N, and others, I don't understand why we can't include latest MBT-3000 after inducting MBT-2000/Al Khalid? Are they failed too?

Just saying example like JF-17 joint projects successfully.

Trial:















US's Abraham tanks should sell to Pakistan in discount prices to beat Oplot M?


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## Dazzler

Andrei_bt said:


> Oplot and t-90S protection -



if this schematic is to be believed, Oplot m has twice the frontal armour of t-90S, thats some thick frontal protection!

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## Malik Alashter

Zarvan said:


> T-90 latest model has 1130 HP engine T-84 Oplot-M we are getting has 1500 HP engine T-90 can carry 40 rounds and T-84 Oplot-M can carry 48. T-84 Oplot-M can also fire latest Anti Tank Guided ammunition


So that's mean oblot is better?.


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## Zarvan

Malik Alashter said:


> So that's mean oblot is better?.


Yes lot better that is why russians are even not to happy with T-90


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## mughaljee

Ukrainian made old trash. Ukrainian deployed this in 1999.. And Pakistan testing same crap in 2015??? Come on.. As a Pakistani i would really recommend military to go for Leopard 2A7 German made, M1A2 made by USA, or Type99 Chinese latest version. Come on go get the deals on them. Pak zindabad

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## Sulman Badshah

cabatli_53 said:


> Indian thermal sight housing SAGEM detectors


we are using segem 3rd generation thermal imagers in AK1

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## Malik Alashter

mughaljee said:


> Ukrainian made old trash. Ukrainian deployed this in 1999.. And Pakistan testing same crap in 2015??? Come on.. As a Pakistani i would really recommend military to go for Leopard 2A7 German made, M1A2 made by USA, or Type99 Chinese latest version. Come on go get the deals on them. Pak zindabad


You're right but don't forget you can't afford those western toys they're simply expensive.

I would you stay with China as long as long they share you some and the price within the the reach.


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## Zarvan

@kaonalpha @Icarus As T-84 Oplot M is selected what name it would get ? I mean will it be named AL-HAIDER or what ? @balixd


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## Andrei_bt

C130 said:


> T-72B is a beast but T-72M or Ural is crap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it surpasses the T-80U in protection,
> 
> Oplot is like a Super T-80



T-72B is very bad in protection and velnurable even to 100 mm gun -




1 - 100 APDS mm velnurable
2 - old 125 velnurable


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## hussain0216

Its all in the small print 

If we get considerable TOT then its all good


----------



## Dazzler

cabatli_53 said:


> Do you have a source regarding that ? If Russia can't develop such basic things from sights to FCS like You claimed, What's the reason of countries all around the world ordering such big portion of land vehicle from Russia, While Ukraine is staying next to them ?



Actually , Peleng of Belarus has been supplying many sights for Russian MBTs and AFVs for many many years now. Russians are pretty good with armour but quite weak in optics and sights.

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## black-hawk_101

There is no official news so expect MBT-3000 in AK-III colors


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## Dazzler

Some Details of Oplot M mbt...

I*NTEGRATED GUN-AND-FIRE CONTROL SYSTEM (IGFCS)

The IGFCS ensures the following:
*

*automatic generation, with subsequent introduction into the armament control devices, of super-elevation and lateral lead angles, with taking into account various deviations of the real firing conditions from the standard ones*
*possibility for the commander to override the gunner and fire the main gun and coaxial machine gun from the commander’s station*
*firing the anti-aircraft machine gun from the commander’s station*
*













PTT-2 thermal sighting system

The system is intended to observe, detect, recognise and identify targets and to deliver aimed fire from the main and coaxial machine gun under all conditions of vehicle operation.

Type
thermal, monocular (with built-in micro-monitor)
Operational spectral wave band
8-12 micrometres
Fields of view:

wide field of view
9x6.75 degrees

narrow field of view
3x2.25 degrees

electronic magnification
1.5x1.12 degrees
Operational ranges:

Detection range (narrow field of view)
at least 8000 m

Recognition range (narrow field of view)
at least 4500 m

Identification range (narrow field of view)
at least 2500 m















*

DRIVER’S DIGITAL INSTRUMENTATION PANEL

The driver's digital instrument panel is intended to control the tank's systems, viz.:


operation of the pre-heater
main engine pre-starting and starting
traffic lights operation
emergency warning
indication of current parameters of the engine and transmission
protection of the engine against wrong actions of the driver during engine pre-starting and starting











TIUS-NM NAVIGATION SUPPORT SYSTEM

The navigation support system (NSS) ensures the solution of the following tasks:


determination of own coordinates X, Y and the bearing grid angle a in the rectangular coordinate system using the SN-3700 radio-navigation equipment (RNE);
generation, transmission and receipt of commands with coordinates of destination points;
gathering of information about subordinates location;
input, storage and processing of route points (up to 50 pcs)and movement along the route, number of control points for each route up to 50;
formation, transmission and receiving of telecode (textual) messages via the radio channel;
indication at the driver's station of information of direction and value of angle of turn to the point of destination.
Accuracy (standard deviation) of the tank location coordinates determination when operating on the following systems signals:
GPS NAVSTAR
40 m
GLONASS
30 m
GPS NAVSTAR/GLONASS
20 m
Quantity of routes being set
Up to 10
Quantity of control points for each route
Up to 50
Gathering of information about the subordinate tanks location, transmission of destination points coordinates and textual information is provided in the units up to the tank battalion level inclusive
Yes
Time of transmission and receipt of information in digital radio channel and range of communication
To be determined by specifications of standard means of communication
Accuracy of presenting the current time (with allowance for the correction for the zone time)
1 s
Time of readiness for operation, max:
under the "cold" start
180 s
under the "hot" start
15 s
Built-in control system
Yes
*1KPI commander's information panel* is designed for input by means of key-boards into the system of initial settings, codes, commands, requests, destination and control points coordinates, as well as telecode messages that are generated from the Russian language symbols or Latin alphabet and digital symbols on the display of alphabet-digital and graphic information, received or input from outside through the radio station or from navigation equipment. It is also used to set the status of the tank – the commander of the respective level (up to the battalion commander) or subordinate (linear) of the respective unit.

1KBI-N information unit provides for:


reading of input data and commands from 1KPI panel keyboard and its processing
exchange of information ans commands with NSS and radio station
processing of information received from NSS and radio station
solution of tasks of:
computing the current coordinates and directional angle
receipt and transmission of commands with coordinates of point of destination
gathering of information on location of subordinates
input, storage and operation of route points
receipt and transmission of telecode messages
indication of angle of turn to the driver

controlling the indicator (screen) of 1KPI panel (indication of information and command messages)
*1KVI panel* is designed for providing the information for the driver about the value and direction of the tank angle of turn to the point of destination.

*SN-3700 radio-navigation equipment* provides for continuous monitoring of the tank coordinates, its route (only on move) and time according to radio signals of navigation space craft of GLONASS and GPS NAVSTAR via open codes at any point of the globe at any point of time and any meteo conditions.


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## C130

Andrei_bt said:


> T-72B is very bad in protection and velnurable even to 100 mm gun -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1 - 100 APDS mm velnurable
> 2 - old 125 velnurable




100mm APDS or 105APDS can't pentreate T-72B with ERA

old 125 APDS is crap. some of newer chinese,india,russia might do it.


M829A1 "silver bullet" I doubt could pentrate T72B with kontakt-5

M829A3 and E4 would slice through


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## cabatli_53

Sulman Badshah said:


> we are using segem 3rd generation thermal imagers in AK1



It is normal since There are 2-3 countries that is able to produce those critical proven thermal imager technologies in NATO and The countries who want to produce own thermal sight systems, should order critical components from those few sources inside/outside NATO. In additions, Noone of India and Russia have thermal imager technologies so You can see SAGEM detectors on Russian attack helicopters and tanks as well.

Turkey is among those rare states that have succesfully developed 2nd and 3rd generation imager detectors after the research done during 15 years.

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## Andrei_bt

C130 said:


> 100mm APDS or 105APDS can't pentreate T-72B with ERA
> 
> M829A1 "silver bullet" I doubt could pentrate T72B with kontakt-5
> 
> M829A3 and E4 would slice through



M829A2 penetrates from 6 km
M829A1 from 2-3 km


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## cabatli_53

Defencenews are telling something regarding cooperations !

As a result, Aselsan has supplied *sighting and other sub-systems* for Pakistan's *Al-Zarrar/upgraded Type-59 tanks and Ukrainian-supplied T-80UD, and transferred radio design and manufacture technology.*

He said it was possible *Aselsan could supply technology developed for Turkey's Leopard II upgrade and Altay tank programs for Pakistan's Al-Khalid, but claimed Aselsan had not yet been contacted in this regard.*

*HIT officials say a key item sought for the Al-Khalid is a third generation thermal imaging sight such as the Altay's.*

Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said that since *the French Al Khalid sight is too expensive, and the Franco-Pakistani defense relationship has deteriorated, Turkey is a viable alternative supplier.*

He believes there may be further benefits in deepening the Pakistani-Turkish defense relationship that *could allow export of the Al-Khalid, hitherto prevented by high foreign sub-systems content.*

Pakistani Turkish Defense Ties Continue to Deepen

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## Max Khan

There are lots of ideas why ukrainians do not use T-84 in big numbers during their current conflict. The answer is simple it is quite expensive tank for Ukrainian army and for their missions it is much better to upgrade 3-4 T-64 to the level of "Bulat" then produce and buy 1 Oplot. 
If ukrainians suggest TOT I think it is a good deal.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ssethii said:


> I am not an expert to say that it's inferior or something, Russians must have their reasons to choose t-72 over t-80. It might have been star of it's time too but they are talking about retiring and we are talking about induction and joint production of the type at the same time.


First of all there is a big Fukin difference between a t-80u made by USSR and a Oplot based on a t-84 produced in late 2000s.


Only 5000 t-80s were produced -- which were produced in what is now Ukraine! Meanwhile the soviets had 20,000 t-72s.. (T-80 was a late arrival.. A new tank)... It was expensive to build and operate ... And had a gas turbine engine (whih was replaced with deisel later on by Ukraine).. The russians chose to upgrade their t-72s .. Incorporating tech from T-80... Coz it was cheaper to upgrade the ahitload of t-72s instead ...


mughaljee said:


> Ukrainian made old trash. Ukrainian deployed this in 1999.. And Pakistan testing same crap in 2015??? Come on.. As a Pakistani i would really recommend military to go for Leopard 2A7 German made, M1A2 made by USA, or Type99 Chinese latest version. Come on go get the deals on them. Pak zindabad


Oplot M was inducted in 2009! So how they they test a tank that wasn't even in service back in 1999??

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## fatman17

Evaluating a particular weapon system dosnt automatically mean that it will be purchased. The armed forces evaluate all types of war materials all the time. We already know that the T80UD are being upgraded to T84 standard. Any tank weighing over 52 tons +/- have difficulty in the Punjab terrain and desert areas. Remember the Abrams trials in the late 80s. Refusing the Chinese is also not going to be very easy.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

C130 said:


> 100mm APDS or 105APDS can't pentreate T-72B with ERA
> 
> old 125 APDS is crap. some of newer chinese,india,russia might do it.
> 
> 
> M829A1 "silver bullet" I doubt could pentrate T72B with kontakt-5
> 
> M829A3 and E4 would slice through


india has yet to produce or develop a decent "APDS" ... This has been discussed to death .. @Dazzler. What was the highest penetration value claimed by indian ? 400ish?



fatman17 said:


> Evaluating a particular weapon system dosnt automatically mean that it will be purchased. The armed forces evaluate all types of war materials all the time. We already know that the T80UD are being upgraded to T84 standard. Any tank weighing over 52 tons +/- have difficulty in the Punjab terrain and desert areas. Remember the Abrams trials in the late 80s. Refusing the Chinese is also not going to be very easy.




Oplot M weights around 51 tons... AK at 48.

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## Barmaley

I read that discussion and let me contribute some words to it 

The Oplot-M has been chosen probably, because of logistical reasons and not because of his capabilities, but i think it was a mistake. Why? Because modern Ukraine can't produce tanks in big numbers.

Just look at the history of Thailand contract with Ukraine. Contract with Thailand was signed in 2011 for delivery of *49* Oplot-M and 2 recovery vehicles on its base.
Since 2011 was delivered to Thailand *only 10*(!!!) of Oplot-M and today is 2015...

So i'm pretty sure that Pakistan will not be happy with this contract in near future. Mark my words.

There was also discussion about "Ukrainian technologies" and in general in cooperation with Russian Military industrial complex.
First of all, Ukraine doesn't produce any key technologies for Russian techs(except maybe gas turbines for ships, but its will be also replaced). The andrei-bt claims that they produce thermal vision, but in fact they don't have technologies of production matrix for thermal cameras, they bought them from sagem, irrc.

The second one, Russia producing their own thermal visions for tanks, helicopters. etc. *without any foreign components. 




*
Also, the main reason why ukraine even producing some components for Russia, because 1. Salaries in ukraine x3 time smaller then in Russia, so products are cheaper, this is including military hardware.
2.Ukrainian industrial complex produced some components only for old techs, such as BMP-2, some spare parts for helicopters engines which is were designed during soviet times and so cooperation stays since this times.
The same why Belarussian thermal sign was chosen for modernisation of *T-72B, *because this product is also cheaper.

There was some question. Why Russia don't use T-80 and going for T-72.
Because we have plans of unification of our combat platforms, first step is make tank forces only T-72\T-90 operating platform, the next step, the Armata platform will replace all this tanks, recovery vehicles and many many others military vehicles.

Also, i strongly don't recommend to you read that crap which is written by anrei-bt He's on the salary of ukroboron prom and talk cr@p about tanks which is were produced by Uralvagonzavod all the time. It's he's personal problem, but that's another story

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## Sulman Badshah

cabatli_53 said:


> HIT officials say a key item sought for the Al-Khalid is a third generation thermal imaging sight such as the Altay's.


i think that HIT should add sub system from turkey into the new AK that is suppose to be unveil at ideas 2016


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## Andrei_bt

Barmaley said:


> Since 2011 was delivered to Thailand *only 10*(!!!) of Oplot-M and today is 2015...



Because payment delay from Thai side, thay actually payed only for 5 for now. They had a revolution recently also.



> The second one, Russia producing their own thermal visions for tanks, helicopters. etc. *without any foreign components. *



I ask you - show me a tank where they are installed?
And BTW thouse Agat and Irbis a just upgrades of Soviet era Agat commander sight (no HK, only vertical stab.) and Buran (no stabilization, slaved to gun).



Barmaley said:


> Also, i strongly don't recommend to you read that crap which is written by anrei-bt He's on the salary of ukroboron prom and talk cr@p about tanks which is were produced by Uralvagonzavod all the time.



Where can I get my salary  

P.S. It will be helpful if moderators will not allow such ungrounded false information about me from some biased forum members.



Barmaley said:


> 2.Ukrainian industrial complex produced some components only for old techs, such as BMP-2, some spare parts for helicopters engines which is were designed during soviet times and so cooperation stays since this times.
> The same why Belarussian thermal sign was chosen for modernisation of *T-72B, *because this product is also cheape



So you consider Khrizantema an old tech? OK.





Belarusian thermal sign was chosen for modernization of T-72B and also installed on T-90SM as it has both axis stabilization, laser guidance channel for missile, LR channel and so on.

Nothing of above mentioned is included on Russian designed ancient sights (remake of Agat and Buran). And of course they are times cheaper than Byelorussian Sosna-U.

So you are either ill informed or lying.

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## Blue Marlin

Andrei_bt said:


> Because payment delay from Thai side, thay actually payed only for 5 for now. They had a revolution recently also.
> 
> 
> 
> I ask you - show me a tank where they are installed?
> And BTW thouse Agat and Irbis a just upgrades of Soviet era Agat commander sight (no HK, only vertical stab.) and Buran (no stabilization, slaved to gun).
> 
> 
> 
> Where can I get my salary
> 
> P.S. It will be helpful if moderators will not allow such ungrounded false information about me from some biased forum members.
> 
> 
> 
> So you consider Khrizantema an old tech? OK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Belarusian thermal sign was chosen for modernization of T-72B and also installed on T-90SM as it has both axis stabilization, laser guidance channel for missile, LR channel and so on.
> 
> Nothing of above mentioned is included on Russian designed ancient sights (remake of Agat and Buran). And of course they are times cheaper than Byelorussian Sosna-U.
> 
> So you are either ill informed or lying.


what do you think of pakistan buying t84's is it possible. and do you think they would sign a TOT and co produce at HIT?

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## Andrei_bt

blue marlin said:


> what do you think of pakistan buying t84's is it possible. and do you think they would sign a TOT and co produce at HIT?



Oplot actually is not T-84, it finished state trials in 2009.

Pakistan already has documentation for repair of their 6TD type engines and it will be completely possible they will have much more local production if this contract will happen.

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## Bilal.

Andrei_bt said:


> Oplot actually is not T-84, it finished state trials in 2009.
> 
> Pakistan already has documentation for repair of their 6TD type engines and it will be completely possible they will have much more local production if this contract will happen.



Since you are quite knowledgeable I will ask the question again to be sure. Are our older T-80UD upgradable to Oplot M standard?

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## Andrei_bt

Bilal. said:


> Since you are quite knowledgeable I will ask the question again to be sure. Are our older T-80UD upgradable to Oplot M standard?



Yes they are if they are variants with welded turret (AFAIK 90% of supplied).

There are several options for modernization including 2 options of armor modernization. From T-80UD (device 478BE) it is possible to receive an Oplot (device 478DU-9-1) as 100% equivalent.

Actually as I known the talks about modernization of T-80UD were even before the ideas to test a new tank. I can’t speak a lot, but maybe those members of this forum who are inside the situation can tell about last years visit of Pakistani delegation to Ukraine. They where very impressed by armor technology shown during firing trials.

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## Barmaley

Andrei_bt said:


> Because payment delay from Thai side, thay actually payed only for 5 for now. They had a revolution recently also.



Contract was signed 4 years ago, long before any revolutions. First serial tank was released in July 2013. This is a clearly production problems.



Andrei_bt said:


> I ask you - show me a tank where they are installed?



Those thermal signs were released in 2012, after T-72B3 was chosen with its complex. I think, further modifications of agat and irbis installed on T-14.



Andrei_bt said:


> BTW thouse Agat and Irbis a just upgrades of Soviet era Agat commander sight




They are new development, with added thermal channels. You can claim with the same success that Leopard 2 is just upgraded version of Tiger 2.

Also, its well know fact on russian defence forums that you are working on Ukrainian state company, basically you got banned at every decent russian defence forum, such as otvaga for example.

P.S. Khrizantema isn't actually old product, but design of khrizantema started like 20 years on BMP-3 platform, so it's more likely Khrizantema (or its future version) will be based on new Kurganets-25.
P.S.S: T-90MS is a export product and Russian Mod don't have plans to buy them.

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## Andrei_bt

Barmaley said:


> basically you got banned at every decent russian defence forum, such as otvaga for example.



I cannot be banned from forum I am not registered on, can you name another one, at leat one for example.


And so you failed to show any single Russian tank with Russian designed thermal sights... just advertisement that did not entered service. Also it is impossible to compare Russian (Soviet 1976 designed) Agat and Buran (Irbis) with modern Byelorussian Sosna and eagle eye. Also the Russian have nothing to install on Khrizantema, so they bought Ukrainian sight.

And if you read Russian industry news you could now that because of failure Armata also received foreign Byelorussian sights.

So what we have? We have Russian produced hull, remake of Kharkiv (Ukraine) designed T-64, with WW2 designed in Kharkiv (Ukraine) diesel V-2, now called V-92, and very good Belarusian sights. It is called T-90S.

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## ArsalanKhan21

cabatli_53 said:


> I think Checking solutions from other sources different than China is important for Pakistan. Having multiple sources or putting countries into a hard competition instead of favouring just one source always give satisfactory benefits on long term so It is either Ukraine or Turkey on any project will provide a good opportunity to reach more ToT's Pakistan requires.



Ukraine is facing Russian aggression, invasion and occupation of its territories and we need to protect our supplies by licensing and manufacturing Oplot M in Pakistan.



Bratva said:


> In 10 years, Only 450 al Khalid have been manufactured. We need to replace 1500 tanks in like 10 years. This is where foreign tanks comes in the picture



It seems that Pakistan is going slow on manufacturing/assembling JF-17 and Al-Khalid. Only 15 JF-17s and 45 Al-Khalids a year !



cabatli_53 said:


> It would be great If Turkey and Pakistan collaborated over Altay project brother but Altay needs 1-2 years for serial production



Pakistan is manufacturing only 45 tanks a year and we need 1500+ tanks to replace. We have room for Altay and we can wait for it.

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## Andrei_bt

size comparisson - M60A3 and Oplot






1995 - 20 years ago





trials of T-80UD against chieniese Type-85III 
and another historical video (in russian) - manafacture of T-80UD for Pakistan -

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## Barmaley

Andrei_bt said:


> I cannot be banned from forum I am not registered on, can you name another one, at leat one for example.


Weren't you active poster on old otvaga forum? Weren't you banned at WoT forum?



Andrei_bt said:


> And so you failed to show any single Russian tank with Russian designed thermal sights... just advertisement that did not entered service. Also it is impossible to compare Russian (Soviet 1976 designed) Agat and Buran (Irbis) with modern Byelorussian Sosna and eagle eye. Also the Russian have nothing to install on Khrizantema, so they bought Ukrainian sight.



I'm already show you T-14 which is new generation tank made on new components and new architecture. You can keep repeat that mantra about Soviet agat, but that's doesn't change the fact that Kranogorsky factory build new product for our MBT.

Also, ukrainian factory which is produced, but in fact just assembled from different components products now is closed.



Andrei_bt said:


> So what we have? We have Russian produced hull, remake of Kharkiv (Ukraine) designed T-64, with WW2 designed in Kharkiv (Ukraine) diesel V-2, now called V-92, and very good Belarusian sights. It is called T-90S.



You are too fat troll or just retard.

Ukraine always was just "assembling factory" even during soviet times, all R&D were in Russia.

Also, there was information that Oplot-M using old guns from T-80 because ukraine don't produce them.
Not to mention quality of armour, as far you know Iraq refused from Ukrainian made APC due to cracks in armour of BTR-4. The same can happens with Oplot-M.


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## Andrei_bt

Barmaley said:


> Weren't you active poster on old otvaga forum? Weren't you banned at WoT forum?



No, maybe you can give a link to any my single post there?

WOT forum, well, I can post here if remember password, but anyone already understand that you are a liar.


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## Zarvan

@StArk 13 Janab Please waiting for you here Sir G


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## Vadym Kovalenko

Audio said:


> Okay, whatever you say. I don't think they buy and sell much to each other nowadays. If anything, Ukrainians didn't even pay for gas and were completely cut-off from transit gas just recently.


You are writing nonsense.
1) Ukraine is a transit system by itself. The only gas storage is situated on ukrainian territory near Poland border. Russia hasnt it at western direction. Ukraine is the only way for gas moving from Russia to Europe thats why Ukraine cant be cut-off.
2) Ukraine is paying for gas. The only disput in a courts is about price but not about facts of paying.
3) Both countries are selling common stuff to each other but Ukraine refused to sell military and space stuff to Russia, including parts for tanks, engines for helicopters and navy, service of AN-series planes, Зенит-3SLB, producing and service of *SS-18 Satan, *SS-18 mod 6 Voevoda*, *which are part of nuclear power of Russia

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## StArk 13

kaonalpha said:


> View attachment 236795
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 236796
> View attachment 236797
> 
> 
> The oplot M has been considerd over the MBT 3000. It is official that Pakistan will not pursue the MB-3000
> 
> Certain change will be made.Allow me to further explain. The Ukrainians have offered the tank a standard version.
> 
> Our demand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus Demand of local manufacturing of spare parts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I say local yes I say with confidance that we have demanded that 60% of the components be made in Pakistan.


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## Andrei_bt

Barmaley said:


> You are too fat troll or just retard.



I also very well aware, then most of the Russian internet users when failed to prove their point of views start discussing their opponent personality, you are not an exclusion.

So you failed with proves about Russian sights production, failed with your invention about me as somebody from state company officials and now failed with claiming “you are banned from Russian forums”.

Isn’t this enough lies for a single day?

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## StArk 13

I


kaonalpha said:


> View attachment 236795
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 236796
> View attachment 236797
> 
> 
> The oplot M has been considerd over the MBT 3000. It is official that Pakistan will not pursue the MB-3000
> 
> Certain change will be made.Allow me to further explain. The Ukrainians have offered the tank a standard version.
> 
> Our demand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus Demand of local manufacturing of spare parts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I say local yes I say with confidance that we have demanded that 60% of the components be made in Pakistan.





Zarvan said:


> @StArk 13 Janab Please waiting for you here Sir G


I'm here bro

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## Basel

*The Ukrainian T-84Oplot Main Battle Tank Operators*
*Ukraine:* 10 T-84 Oplot are in service with the Ukrainian Army since 1999. 5 T-84Oplot-M were bought in 2014. Further orders for T-84Oplot-M are expected in 2015.

*Thailand:* 5 T-84 Oplot-M in service. In 2011 the Royal Thai Army placed an order for 49 more T-84 Oplot-M and awaiting delivery.

*The Ukrainian T-84 Oplot Main Battle Tank Spec’s *




The Ukrainian T-84 Oplot Main Battle Tank

*FIREPOWER*
*Main Gun* - Model KBA-3 Calibre 125 mm
*Breech* – type horizontal wedge-type, semi-automatic
*Elevation/depression* – angles (up to rigid stops). from -4 to +15 degrees
*Horizontal aiming* – (together with the tank turret) 360 degrees
*Elevation* - 0.2 mrad (APFSDS, HEAT, R=2000 m)
*Azimuth* - 0.2 mrad (APFSDS, HEAT, R=2000 m)

*Coaxial machine gun* – Model KT-7.62 (PKT) with removing powder gas
*Calibre* – 7.62 mm
*Technical rate of fire* – 700 to 800 rpm

*Anti-aircraft machine gun system
Control *- remote
*Control modes* – 1) automatic 2) stabilised in vertical plane
*Armament model* – KT-12.7
*Calibre* – 12.7 mm
*Ammunition feed* – belt-type
*Technical rate of fire* – 700 rpm
*Number of cartridges in a belt* – 150
*Max firing range* – at air targets 2000m / at ground targets 2000 m
*Firing (aiming) angles* – elevation from -3 to 60 degrees / azimuth 360 degrees

*LOADING SYSTEM*
The loading system is a system intended to automatically load the main gun with ammunition of the available types and consisting of a conveyor, automatic loader and control system.

*Type* – electric hydraulic mechanical, with fixed loading angle
*Number of projectile* – types 4
*Conveyor capacity* – 28 rds
*Conveyor rotation* – in both directions
*Conveyor rotation speed* – 25-33 degrees per sec
*Loading cycle durationс* – minimum 7 sec (if the conveyor turns through 1 step) / maximum 12.5 sec (if the conveyor terns through 180°)
*Loading cycle duration if using manual drives of the loading system* – if the conveyor turns through 1 step within 1 minute / if the conveyor turns through 14 steps within 1.6 minutes

Removal of a used cartridge case stub with placing it into an empty loading tray without damaging air-tightness of the fighting compartment
Round ramming type tandem-type ramming projectile and charge together) during one cycle
Availability of back-up drives manual drives of conveyor, manual ammo feed mechanism, manual conveyor lock and manual gun lock
Conveyor replenishment time (in replenishment mode) 15-20 minutes.

*Control system of the loading system installed in the tank is intended for:*

Ensuring control over operation of mechanical and hydraulic units of the loading system
Ensuring control of the firing circuits of the main gun and coaxial machine gun
Storing information about the rounds placed into the loading system conveyor

*INTEGRATED GUN-AND-FIRE CONTROL SYSTEM (IGFCS) *
*The IGFCS ensures the following:*

Automatic generation, with subsequent introduction into the armament control devices, of super-elevation and lateral lead angles, with taking into account various deviations of the real firing conditions from the standard ones
Possibility for the commander to override the gunner and fire the main gun and coaxial machine gun from the commander’s station
Firing the anti-aircraft machine gun from the commander’s station accurate aiming from 0.05 to 1 degrees/sec – maximum at least 3 degrees/sec Azimuth: – minimum within 0.05 degrees/sec -accurate aiming from 0.05 to 1 degrees/sec – maximum at least 3 degrees/sec

*Laser range-finder* – target ranging limits 400-5000 m

*Time required for preparation of the first shot of the gun* - if the tank is stationary - 10-12 sec / if the tank is on the move - 10-15 sec
*Gun firing range in all conditions of vehicle operation* – APFSDS at least 2800m / HEAT, HE-FRAG - at least 2600 m

*1G46M gunner’s sight*
*Type* – Optical aiming device with two-axis independent stabilisation of the field of view, with laser range-finder and laser channel for missile guidance
*Magnification* – 2.7-12
*Field of view -* 4-20 degrees
*Aiming angles of stabilised line of sight* – elevation is -15 to +20 degrees / azimuth (8±1) degrees / together with the turret 360 degrees
Speed of aiming of the line of sight Elevation minimum within 0.05 degrees per sec / accurate aiming from 0.05 to 1 degrees per sec / maximum
at least 3 degrees per sec
*Azimuth* – minimum within 0.05 degrees per sec
*Accurate aiming from* – 0.05 to 1 degrees per sec
*Maximum* – at least 3 degrees per sec
*Laser range-finder* – target ranging limits 400-5000m

*PTT-2 thermal sighting system*
The system is intended to observe, detect, recognise and identify targets and to deliver aimed fire from the main and coaxial machine gun under all conditions of vehicle operation.

*Type thermal* – monocular (with built-in micro-monitor)
*Operational spectral wave band* – 8-12 micrometres
*Fields of view* – wide field of view 9×6.75 degrees / narrow field of view 3×2.25 degrees
*Electronic magnification* - 1.5×1.12 degrees
*Operational ranges* – Detection range (narrow field of view) at least 8000m / Recognition range (narrow field of view) at least 4500m / Identification range (narrow field of view) at least 2500 m






*PNK-6 panoramic sighting system*
*The system is intended for:*

*1* – detection, recognition and identification of ground and air targets by day and at night from the tank commander’s station
*2* – target ranging by means of the laser range-finder
*3* – designation of targets to the gunner
*4* – firing the main gun and the coaxial machine gun from the commander’s station in the override more
*5* – firing the anti-aircraft machine gun
*6* – Technical characteristics

*Field-of-view stabilisation independent, in two axes:*

*Aiming angles of the stabilised line of sight* – Depression at least 15 degrees / Elevation at least 60 degrees
*Traverse* - 360 degrees
*Magnification of the day vision channel* – 1.2; 6; 12
*Field of view of the day vision channel* – 30; 10; 5.5 degrees
*Field of view of thermal channel* – Wide field of view 9×6.75 degrees / Narrow field of view 3×2.25 degrees
*Electronic magnification* - 1.5×1.12 degrees
*Spectral range of the thermal camera* – 8-12 micrometres
*Range of detection of a TANK-type target* – Through the visual channel at least 5500m / Through the thermal channel in the narrow field of view at least 8000m
*Target ranging limits* – 200-9500m

*Main armament stabiliser*
The main armament stabiliser ensures stabilisation and stabilised aiming of the armament in the vertical and horizontal planes.

Model 2E42M
*Elevation drive* – electric-and-hydraulic
*Azumuth drive* – electric-and-mechanical
*Minimum* – within 0.05 degrees/sec
*Acurate aiming* - 0.05-1 degrees/sec
*Quick traverse* - 35-40 degrees/sec

*Tank’s guided weapon system*
The system is intended to fire a guided missile through the tank gun barrel. The aiming is carried out by means of the gunner’s 1G46M sight.

*Guided missile round* - Izd. 621, 3UBK14, 3UBK20
*Warhead type* – HEAT
*Missile guidance system* - semi-automatic, using a laser beam
*Max firing range* – 5000m

*TIUS-VM tank ballistic computer*





*Type* – analogue-and-digital, with built-in test system and digital monitoring of parameters, automatic generation of super-elevation and lead angles for all types of projectiles and coaxial machine gun, with taking into account all topographic, meteorological and ballistic parameters that affect the accuracy of firing, with automatic registration and storing the parameters of the integrated gun-and-fire control system in various modes of operation.

*Parameters that are automatically taken into account by the computer* – target range, own tank movement, target speed, crosswind speed, gun trunnion axis cant, angular speed of the target (in horizontal and vertical planes), target position angle, tank movement attitude angle, relative speeds of the tank, muzzle velocity of the projectile.

*Parameters that are introduced into the computer manually* – air temperature, charge temperature, projectile muzzle velocity deviation due to variations inherent to different lots of ammunition, atmospheric pressure, barrel wear, individual jump angle.

*Wind sensor* – The sensor is intended to measure the crosswind speed and provide the relevant information to the tank ballistic computer.

Type capacity-type
Model DVE-BS
Crosswind speed measurement range within 20 m/s
Measurement error ±1 m/s

*Tank speed sensor* – The sensor is intended to measure the speed of tank’s own speed movement and providing the relevant information to the tank ballistic computer.

Tank speed measurement range at least 75 km/h
Measurement error within 0.5 km/h

*Turret attitude sensor* – The sensor is intended to measure the angular position of the turret relative to the hull (turret attitude angle) and provide the relevant information to the tank ballistic computer.

Turret attitude angle measurement range at least 360 degrees
Measurement error

*Muzzle reference system* – The system is intended to automatically measure the gun barrel bend and provide the relevant information to the tank ballistic computer.

Gun barrel bend measurement range (in vertical and horizontal planes) at least ±5 mrad
Measurement step within 0.1 mrad

*Anti-aircraft machine gun control system*

*The system is intended to:*

1. Ensure stabilisation and stabilised laying of the anti-aircraft machine gun in the vertical and horizontal planes
2. Automatically generate and introduce super-elevation and lateral lead angles with taking into account the deviation of the current firing conditions from the standard ones.

*



*
*BALLISTIC PROTECTION*
*Main armour protection multi-layer (composite)* - anti-projectile, combined, multi-layer, against penetration of HEAT and APFSDS projectiles (adapted for installation of explosive reactive armour array)

*Built-in anti-tandem-warhead explosive reactive armour (BATW-ERA)* - intended to increase the tank’s level of protection against kinetic energy (APFSDS) and chemical energy ammunition (HEAT, HESH, HEP), including ammunition with tandem warheads.

*The armour protection fitted with BATW-ERA ensures protection against:*

1. Hand anti-tank grenades, hand-held and stationary grenade launchers and recoilless guns (including ammunition with tandem warheads)
2. Anti-tank missiles of TOW-2, Milan and Shturm-S type
3. HEAT projectiles fired by 125 mm tank smoothbore guns
4. APFSDS projectiles fire by 125 mm and 120 mm tank guns
5. The BATW-ERA array consists of glacis module and side skirts installed on the tank hull, as well as modular elements placed on the outer perimeter of the front and side surfaces of the turret and containers installed on the turret roof.

The Nozh explosive reactive armour elements installed in special niches snap into action when hit by all types of hollow-charge warheads and sub-calibre armour-piercing projectiles.

The Nozh explosive reactive armour elements of the BATW-ERA do not detonate when hit by 12.7 mm bullets, 30 mm armour-piercing projectiles and shell fragments. The Nozh explosive reactive armour elements do not require any maintenance and are safe to deal with.

The Nozh explosive reactive armour elements are stored in containers or on the tank in heated premises or in the open air under a shed protecting them against precipitation and solar irradiation at temperatures from -50 to +55 degrees Centigrade. They can also be stored under the conditions of high humidity (100%) at temperatures of up to +35 degrees Centigrade.

The Nozh explosive reactive armour elements retain their qualities for 10 years, including storage in field conditions for up to 5 years and use on the tank for up to 3 years if the requirements for use, transportation and storage are met.

It takes the tank crew 2.4 to 2.6 hours to prepare the BATW-ERA array for combat operation within without the need to use any special contrivances (to do this, only the explosive reactive armour elements are to be installed).

*Anti-mine protection*
The anti-mine protection makes it possible to preserve the combat readiness of the crew and operability of the tank’s interior equipment in case an anti-tank mine explodes under the tank track (up to 10 kg TNT equivalent) or under the tank driver’s compartment bottom plate (up to 4 kg TNT equivalent).

*Optronic countermeasures system*
To improve the tank protectability, the Varta optronic countermeasure system is integrated in the tank.

*The optronic countermeasure system provides:*

1. Confusing of the guidance systems of ATGM by putting out laser jamming covering the horizontal plane of ±18° relative to the main gun tube and ±2° in the vertical plane.
2. Jamming of the ATGM guidance systems that use laser illumination of targets, semi-automatic laser guided homing projectiles as well as artillery systems equipped with laser range-finders by activating the remote fast-deploying aerosol screens in a sector of ±45° relative to the main gun tube
Optronic jamming station.

*Aerosol screen laying system:*

*Mode of operation* – Automatic, semiautomatic, manual
*System reaction time in auto mode* – less than 0.5 s
*Qty of launchers -* 12
*Grenade caliber* – 80 mm
*Screen laying range* – at least 50 m
*time for laying the screen* - not more than 3 s
*effective screen duration -* time 60 s

*Crew’s collective protection system*
The system ensures protection of the crew and interior equipment against effects of nuclear explosions, radioactive substances, toxic agents and biological warfare agents, as well as detection and suppression of fires in the crew compartment and power pack compartment.






*NBC protection system*
PRHR-M1 radiation and chemical agents detector.

*PRHR-М1 (RCAD) is designed for continuous check-up, detection, signalling and control using actuators of protection means:*

•During intensive gamma- radiation (nuclear blast)
•During gamma-radiation on the contaminated terrain followed by measuring the doze of radiation
•During detection of poisonous vapors in the air as a result of enemy actions

The instrument provides light and audible signals in case of detection poisonous agents in the air or gamma-radiation on the terrain as well as it generates commands for switching blower on and shifting over the valve of filtering ventilation unit (FVU) in the filtering position.

The instrument provides light and audible signals in case of detection powerful gamma radiation as well as commands for engine shutdown, shifting over the valve of FVU in the filtering ventilation mode, switching off the blower if it was on, followed by switching it on in 30 to 50 s.

The instrument provides checking its electrical circuits by generation commands (or without command generation) to actuators.

*Range of measuring power of gamma radiation exposure* - doze 0.2-150 R/h
Response time – Powerful gamma radiation within 0.1sec / gamma radiation of contaminated terrain within 10sec / detection the the air vapors of poisonous chemical agents (outside the vehicle) within 40sec.

*Filter-ventilator unit*

The filter-ventilator unit serves to clean external air from poisonous substances, radioactive dust, biological aerosols, to supply cleaned air into the crew compartment and create overpressure in it, as well as to ventilate the crew compartment during firing and fire fighting system comes into action.

Air consumption – via absorber filter at least 100 cubic metres per hour / bypassing the absorber filter at least 390 cubic metres per hour.

*Filter-ventilator unit functions in 2 modes:*

1. *Ventilation mode.* In this case blower delivers the dust-free air to crew compartment passing by the absorber filter
2. *Filtering and ventilation mode.* In this mode the blower delivers the clean air to the crew compartment through the absorber filter






*Fire suppression system*
The system with optical sensors and thermal sensors is designed for detection of fire sources in the crew compartment and power pack compartment and quick suppression, generation of commands for ventilation activation and removal thermal decomposition products from the crew compartment.

Methods of activation - Automatically, vehicle mains is on / Manually, panel buttons of the driving compartment and power pack compartment
Response time – Crew compartment, not more than 0.15s / Power pack, not more than 0.10s
Fire suppression is exercised by filling the free space of the compartment with extinguishing compound where fire takes place.

For this article proposed are the bottles of 2 litre capacity filled with fire-extinguishing compound Chladon 114B2 or other compound (as agreed) under pressure of 75 kgf/cm2. The bottles are equipped with high-acting heads and pressure alarms.

To provide article survivability, the system has two bottles for each compartment (crew compartment and power pack compartment).

*Tank signature reduction means*
*Dazzle painting*

Dazzle is intended for decreasing visibility of a tank and distortion of its image. Dazzle painting used is of three colors. The main color is green, auxiliary color is yellow-gray and additional color is black. Desert color is also used for painting.

*Natural camouflage clamps*

Clamps for natural camouflage are intended for fastening on the tank branches, grass and so on. There are 24 clamps in the tank set.

*Thermal insulation*

Thermal insulation is intended for decreasing range and probability of tank detection with heat reconnaissance apparatus and high-precision home warheads.

The thermal insulation consists of ETC top plate blowing channels and reflective screens.

*Engine smoke generator*

Engine smoke generator is intended for laying smoke screen with the diesel fuel. Fuel consumption 10 to 12 litres/min.

*CAMOUFLAGE COVER KIT*
The camouflage cover kit is intended to reduce:

1. The visual signature of the tank
2. The value of the tank’s effective surface of dispersion in order to decrease the distance of detection of the tank by means of radar-type detection stations and weapon guidance systems
3. The thermal irradiation of the heated outer surfaces of the tank in order to decrease the distance of detection of the tank by means of thermal imaging devices and to decrease the probability of ‘capturing’ the tank by infra-red homing warheads of anti-tank weapon systems (anti-tank guided missiles, mortar projectiles, artillery projectiles)
4. Level of reduction of power of the signal reflected from the camouflaged vehicle (in the band of 0.8-4 cm) within 18 dB
Reduction of probability of detection of the camouflaged tank by air-borne radar-type detection systems, at distances of 20 km or more (with the resolution on the terrain being 5-15 m), in comparison with the non-camouflaged tank at least by twice
Reduction of probability of ‘capturing’ the camouflaged tank by radar-type systems of weapon guidance, in comparison with the non-camouflaged tank at least by twice.
5. Probability of detection of the camouflaged vehicle on a airphoto (with the resolution on the terrain being at least 0.2 m) within 0.3
Distance at which the camouflaged vehicle cannot be recognised visually at least 1,000 m
Reduction of level of infra-red irradiation of the camouflaged vehicle, in comparison with the non-camouflaged vehicle at least by thrice
Colours being used protective green, grey-and-yellow, black

*SELF-ENTRENCHING DEVICE*
Self-entrenching device is intended for digging out individual trenches. It is mounted on the lower nose plate of the tank hull.

Blade is designed for cutting the soil, its displacement, bracings for keeping the blade in operational state during soil cutting, guiding planks – for keeping bracings and for blocking the blade from rotation and the clamp serves for keeping the blade in the move.

*Self-entrenching device can take two positions* - in stowing and in operation.

1. In stowing, the blade is fastened with two clamps to the lower plate of tank nose.

2. In operation position, the blade is lowered and when the tank moves forward, it cuts the soil by resting on the bracings. When tank moves backwards, the blade freely slips with its rear part along the soil surface without displacing the soil.

*INSTALLATION OF MINE CLEARING SYSTEM*
The tank provides for installation of track mine-clearing system (TMC) that allows to pave the way for tanks across mine fields.

To do that the tank hull is equipped with special weldings. Driver’s compartment provides place for connection to compressor and tank power supply for controlling the mine clearing system.

Individual set of SPTA is used for its assembly and maintenance. This set makes it possible to carry out the said work by tank crew.

*POWER PACK*
Power pack is a system of units and assemblies that includes the engine and its service system as follows: fuel system, air feed system, oil system, cooling system, exhaust and heating systems. Power pack is operational in the ambient temperatures from -40 to +55 degrees Centigrade.

*Engine – *6ТD-2 engine is a multifuel, 6-cylinder, double-stroke liquid cooled diesel engine.

*Maximum output using diesel fuel* – 882 kW (1200 hp)
*Max. torque at diesel fuel at engine -* crankshaft rotation speed at (1600±10) rpm 3135 N (320 kgf·m)
*Rotational speed of the crankshaft at max. power* – 2600 rpm
*Specific fuel consumption at maximum power mode 211-231 g/kW·h -* (155-170 g/hp·h)
*Mass of the dry engine* - 1180/1240 kg
*Dimensions* – length 1602mm / width 955mm / height 581mm

The engine is adapted for automatic transmission control. Regulator is equipped with the rack travel sensor of fuel pumps. Diesel has speed measuring device for recording the crankshaft rotational speed.

In electro-mechanical rotational speed governor used is a special mechanism restricting fuel delivery in the range of speeds from 800 to 2000 rpm. Due to that we provide reduction of optical density of exhaust gases at starting and free acceleration modes.

In this fuel apparatus used are nozzles with locking needle.

The engine consists of crankshaft mechanism, crank cases, cylinders, shifting over mechanism, compressor, gas turbine and hang-up assemblies: starter-generator, water pump, air compressor TK-150, regulator, fuel priming pump, fuel filters, high pressure fuel pumps, oil centrifugal filter, air distributor and other units.

Engine cylinders are arranged horizontally. Each cylinder has inlet ports and outlet ports. Inlet ports serve for blowing and filling the cylinders by air, outlet port provide exhaust gas withdrawal. Improved configuration of the inlet ports provides improvement of efficiency due to perfection of gas exchange process and mixture formation. Exhaust gases leaving the cylinders flow through the outlet collector to gas turbine.

Each cylinder holds two oppositely moving pistons. When they move to each other as close as possible formed is combustion chamber. Each piston is connected with its own crankshaft by the connecting rod. These pistons making their reciprocal motion open and close inlet and outlet ports and carry out the function of gas distribution mechanism. In these pistons used are the improved needle bearing of the upper head of the connecting rod and making it possible to increase maximum burning pressure, service life and reliability.

The compressor of inlet air provides improvement of the diesel parameter due to more efficient compression process attained by improved aerodynamics of flowing part.

Gas turbine converts the energy of exhaust gases into mechanical energy for driving the compressor.

The engine is mounted in the power pack compartment. Its installation does not require any adjustment. Axles of the engine crankshafts are arranged laterally to longitudinal tank axle.

The engine is fastened in three places. Two yokes fasten it in the rear part and pivoting bearing fastens it in the front.

*Fuel system*
1. Fuel tanks
2. Surge tank
3. Fuel distributing valve
4. External tank switch-off valve
5. Fuel priming pumps, fuel filling filter
6. Fuel pre-filter
7. Fuel fine filter
8. Centrifugal fuel pump
9. Fuel filling pump with a valve
10. Air separating tank
11. Reverse valve
12. Fuel gauges
13. Pipe-lines

Engine fuel is stored in the fuel tanks with a total capacity of 1,140 litres.

*The following fuel is used -* diesel fuel, jet engine fuel, petrol and mixtures of these type of fuel.

The system ensures supply of fuel to the engine from either of the fuel tank groups separately or from both of the fuel tank groups simultaneously.

The fuel system also ensures fuel supply to the auxiliary power unit, which is located on the right fender, by means of the pipe-lines going through the vehicle hull side.

Fuel can be replenished through the filling necks of the fuel tanks, as well as by using the filling pump.

*Capacity of the internal fuel tanks* – 575 lt
*Capacity of the external fuel tanks* – 570 lt
*Capacity of the additional fuel drums* – 380 (190х2) lt

*Air system*
The air system of the engine is intended to remove dust from the air that comes into the engine. Air purification is performed in three stages with ejection-type removal of dust. The first stage of air purification is performed at a bunker provided with an inertia grid, while the second and third stages, at a two-stage cassette-type air cleaner.

The system consists of an air cleaner with a dust removal ejector, air intake bunker with a inertia grid and ejector that removes dust from the inertia grid.

*The air cleaner is a two-stage device:* The first stage ensures a preliminary removal of dust from air with the efficiency of 99.78 %. After going through the second stage of air purification, the air is purified with the efficiency of up to 99.85 %. The cassettes are the second stage of the air cleaner.

*Engine lubrication system*
Lubrication system is intended for oil arrangement in the tank, oil supply to the engine, cleaning and cooling of the oil used in the tank.

Engine lubrication system includes internal oil tank with intake filter; oil radiator; oil pump; priming pump; two exhaust pumps; centrifugal oil filter; oil-gauge, and pipelines.

*Lubrication system* – circulating, performed on the dry crank case principle.

A 105-litre oil tank is installed in the front part of engine compartment, between the bulkhead and the engine. Oil intake for engine supply is performed from the middle compartment, which is filled with oil from other compartments.

The system is equipped with minimum oil pressure sensor.

Cooling system Cooling system is liquid, high temperature system of closed type with forced circulation of coolant and ejection cooling of radiators, it is designed to provide thermal operation mode of the engine. Coolant priming through the engine (at engine crankshafts rotation speed 2600 rpm) is not less than 38 m3/hour. Refilling capacity – 94 litres. .

*Cooling system includes*
1. Ejector
2. Engine water pump
3. Radiators
4. Surge tank
5. Steam-admission valve
6. Preheater with air-heater
7. Engine inner chambers
8. Cooling belts of gas duct joint
9. Engine water dump valve
10. Preheater water dump valve and pipe lines. Main engine cooling system is connected to the APU, which is located on the right fender and provides cooling for operating APU.

Water radiators provide heat abstraction from coolant, and installed in the ejector box of engine compartment roof.

The system is equipped with coolant max temperature indicator and coolant level indicator, which give signal, when the coolant reaches maximal temperature.

The effectiveness of cooling system is regulated with the amount of gases, passing the ejector.

*Exhaust system*
The system provides cooling outer airflow through radiators, using the energy of engine exhaust gases and exhaust gases release.

The system includes compensator; gas duct; adapter, weld to the right side of the engine compartment roof, together with by-pass gas duct, receiver with nozzle device and ejector setting.

To provide the cooling of the gas duct joint there are water sleeves with circulating coolant.

*Heating system*
Heating system is the part of cooling system and is used to warm up the engine and the oil before engine start, as well as for keeping the engine ready to start at cold seasons.

Warming up of the engine is performed with the help of warmed by preheater coolant. Exhaust gases of preheater warm oil in the engine oil tank.

*Heating system includes* - preheater, engine oil tank flue tube and pipe lines.

Preheater is used for coolant warming and providing its circulation through the cooling system pipes at engine warming up, and oil warming by engine oil tank exhaust gases.

*Engine starting system*
Starting methods:
*Main* – by electric starter from four storage batteries
*Auxiliary* - by compressed air from air bottles
*Combined* - electric starter from SB and compressed air simultaneously
*From outer source* - electrical energy or compressed air of similar vehicle is used
*Push starting used* - when there is no chance to start the engine with all the above mentioned methods
Means to facilitate the starting

*REVERSIBLE (MULTIPLE REVERSE SPEED) TRANSMISSION*
Reversible transmission is intended to increase the tank speed at forward motion and reverse movement. The enhanced gears of reverse movement provide when necessary quick change of position in combat conditions without tank turning.

Reversible transmission consists of two gear boxes with coaxially attached reversible final drives.

*Speeds at various gears:*

Forward gears Reverse gears
Number of gear Speed (km/h) Number of gear
1 8,4 Reverse 1 10,7
2 15,7 Reverse. 2 19,8
3 19,8 Reverse 3 25,0
4 24,8 Reverse 4 31,3
5 34,2
6 47,2
7 69,3
Reverse 4,8

*COMPLEX MOVEMENT CONTROL SYSTEM*
The complex movement control system (CMCS) is designed to ensure the tank mobility and controllability (=agility) under different road conditions as well as to minimize the driver’s fatigue.

*The CMCS fulfills the following functions:*

1. Tank take-off and forward/reverse motion
2. Automatic gear shifting depending upon road conditions
3. Smooth change of the tank turning radius
4. Manual (overriding) transmission control mode within 6 forward and 4 reverse gears
5. Locking in case of driver wrong actions
6. Built-in check of the movement control equipment

*Technical characteristics of the CMCS:*

1. Automated operation mode
2. Number of gear Speed (km/h)
3. Forward 1-7 0-69,3
4. Reverse 1-4 0-31,3
5. Manual control mode
6. Forward 1…6 0…69,3
7. Reverse 1…3 0…25,0

*RUNNING GEAR*
Running gear consists of track mover and cushion system.

Track mover with rear placement of drive sprockets consists of two idler wheels with track tensioning mechanisms, two sprocket wheels, two tracks, twelve road wheels, ten supporting wheels.

Cushion system consists of twelve personal torsion suspensions and six hydraulic telescopic shock-absorbers.

Idler wheel is made of cast steel / Track tensioner is crank-type, with hour-glass worm pair / Diameter of idler wheel is 514 mm.

Drive sprocket consists of cast disc, two gear rings, attached with bolts and nuts, and restraining disc, that provides firm gearing of track with sprocket wheel.

To provide firm gearing while moving along the marshland and alike road conditions, there is a sprocket wheel cleaner installed aboard the main battle tank.

Diameter of sprocket wheel gearing 630mm.

Road wheels are twodiscs with outer shock absorption made of high quality rubber, that allows tank to move on high speed for a long period of time. Discs of the road wheels are made of high-strength aluminium alloy, they are attached to the hub with the help of bolts, which allows to change them quickly when damaged.

*Road wheel diameter* – 670mm
*Width of road wheel tyre* – 170mm

Track with replaceable rubber pads includes parallel rubber-metal joint, rubberized running-track and removable rubber shoes; allows the tank to move on the asphalt road without damaging it. The removable rubber shoes are attached to the track grooves and locked with spring lock. Due to the customer requirements the SPTU can include steel grousers to enhance cohesion with the ground, when moving on ice or ground with low bearing capacity.

*Number of track-links in the track* – 80pcs
*Track step -* 164mm
*Track width* – 580 or 600mm

Track support rollers are single-tyre, consist of rim with tyre made of high quality rubber, seals and fastening elements.

*Track support roller* - outer diameter 225mm
*Track support roller* – width 125mm

Torsion bars are high quality, torsion strength is 14000 kgf/cm2, provide full suspension movement of 410 mm. Torsion bars are located from side to side, with mutual displacement 100 mm.

Shock absorbers are hydraulic, telescopic, double-acting, installed on first, second and sixth suspensions. Shock absorbers use sealing made of heat-resistant rubber, that provide firm sealing at temperature up to 220°С. Besides, there is a heat restraint installed in the shock absorber, which prevents the shock absorber from heating higher than 220°С.

Working stroke – 225mm
Piston diameter – 90mm
Piston-rod diameter – 40mm
Maximum direct stroke resistance - 15 ton-force

*DEEP FORDING EQUIPMENT*
Deep fording equipment (DFE) provides for negotiating the water obstacle up to 1.8 m deep without special preparation of the tank («Brod» mode) and water obstacles up to 5 m after installation of special removable assemblies of DFE («PH» mode), as well as engaging in combat after negotiating the obstacle without any special works that require the crew to leave the tank. DFE set includes removable and stationary assemblies.

*Removable assemblies include:*

1. Air supply pipe
2. Exhaust pipe with wire rope to disengage the lock
3. Nose bilge pump valve
4. Coax MG port sealing
5. Gun muzzle end sealing
6. Rope with caps for sealing the AIU intake valves of PRHR-M1
7. Back-up communication system, input with signal lamp. Air intake pipe is used for supply of air to the engine of the completely tight tank while moving under water.

Exhaust pipe is used for exhausting the fumes to atmosphere while moving under water at the depth of 5 m to exclude penetration of water into exhaust channel when the engine is shut off.

Nose bilge pump valve prevents the water from penetrating into the tank through the water discharge port with the inoperative pump.

Signal lamp is used to mark the place of the tank while moving through the water obstacle in night conditions.

The set of removable equipment is supplied to the tank in a separate box bearing the tank number.

In view of using the DFE while negotiating the water obstacles at the distance of not more than a day’s range, the DFE removable equipment may be stowed on the tank.

*OBSERVATION AND ORIENTATION DEVICES*
*Day vision devices*
*TNPO-160 vision block* - Prism with heating of inlet and outlet windows

*commander’s station* – 1 unit is installed and 1 unit is available in SPTA kit
*driver’s station* – 3 units are installed in shaft and 1 unit is available in SPTA kit
*Magnification* – 1
*Field of view* – in elevation 5dg / in azimuth 36dg
*Angle of vision in azimuth* - 78dg
*Periscopicity* - 160mm

*TNP-165A vision block – *Type Prism

*Commander’s* – 2 in the hatch cover
*Gunner’s* – 3 in the turret and 1 in SPTA kit
*Magnification* - 1
*Field of view* – in elevation 8dg / in azimuth 36dg
*Angle of vision in azimuth* – 74dg
*Periscopicity* – 165mm

Hydraulic pneumatic cleaning is designed for cleaning of vision devices and protection glass from mud by fluid and from dust and snow – by air.

*TVN-5 driver’s night vision device* - Periscopic, binocular, with image intensifier of the 2nd generation
*Number* – 1
*Magnification* – 1x
*Field of view* – in the vertical plane 27dg / in the horizontal plane 36dg
*Distance of vision of the flat road* – in the passive mode at NNIL from 3·10 -3 to 5·10 -3 lx at least 180m / in the active mode at NNIL of at least 3· 10 -3 lx at least 80m.

*Orientation device*
Type – directional gyro Model GPK-59

*TIUS-NM NAVIGATION SUPPORT SYSTEM*
*The navigation support system (NSS) ensures the solution of the following tasks:*

1. Determination of own coordinates X, Y and the bearing grid angle a in the rectangular coordinate system using the SN-3700 radio-navigation equipment (RNE);
2. Generation, transmission and receipt of commands with coordinates of destination points;
3. Gathering of information about subordinates location;
4. Input, storage and processing of route points (up to 50 pcs)and movement along the route, number of control points for each route up to 50;
5. Information, transmission and receiving of telecode (textual) messages via the radio channel;
6. Indication at the driver’s station of information of direction and value of angle of turn to the point of destination.

*Accuracy (standard deviation) of the tank location coordinates determination when operating on the following systems signals:*

1. GPS NAVSTAR 40 m
2. GLONASS 30 m
3. GPS NAVSTAR/GLONASS 20 m
4. Quantity of routes being set Up to 10
5. Quantity of control points for each route Up to 50
6. Gathering of information about the subordinate tanks location, transmission of destination points coordinates and textual information is provided in 7. The units up to the tank battalion level inclusive Yes
8. Time of transmission and receipt of information in digital radio channel and range of communication To be determined by specifications of standard means of communication.
9. Accuracy of presenting the current time (with allowance for the correction for the zone time) 1s
10. Time of readiness for operation, max – under the “cold” start 180s / under the “hot” start 15s
Built-in control system – Yes

1KPI commander’s information panel is designed for input by means of key-boards into the system of initial settings, codes, commands, requests, destination and control points coordinates, as well as telecode messages that are generated from the Russian language symbols or Latin alphabet and digital symbols on the display of alphabet-digital and graphic information, received or input from outside through the radio station or from navigation equipment. It is also used to set the status of the tank – the commander of the respective level (up to the battalion commander) or subordinate (linear) of the respective unit.

*1KBI-N information unit provides for:*

1. Reading of input data and commands from 1KPI panel keyboard and its processing
2. Exchange of information ans commands with NSS and radio station
3. Processing of information received from NSS and radio station

*solution of tasks of:*

1. Computing the current coordinates and directional angle
2. Receipt and transmission of commands with coordinates of point of destination
3. Gathering of information on location of subordinates
4. Input, storage and operation of route points
5. Receipt and transmission of telecode messages
6. Indication of angle of turn to the driver
7. Controlling the indicator (screen) of 1KPI panel (indication of information and command messages). 1KVI panel is designed for providing the information for the driver about the value and direction of the tank angle of turn to the point of destination.

SN-3700 radio-navigation equipment provides for continuous monitoring of the tank coordinates, its route (only on move) and time according to radio signals of navigation space craft of GLONASS and GPS NAVSTAR via open codes at any point of the globe at any point of time and any meteo conditions.

*Remarks:*

1.The data on the own tank position, subordinate tanks, points of destination and route points are displayed on the screen of 1KPI in text of graphic format (at the discretion of the commander)
2.VHF radio stations are used in NSS for exchange of commands, navigation and telecode information via digital radio channel

*COMMUNICATIONS EQUIPMENT*
*VHF radio set* – Type VHF, Tx/Rx Model R-030U
*Operation frequency band -* 30-110 MHz
*Nominal output power* – 30 W (at reduced power 1 W)
*Max. communication range in* - the cross-country 20-25 km
*Transmitter operation modes* – 1.Fixed frequency / 2.Pseudo-random operation frequency tuning (POFT), average number of band tuning is 312,5 per second

Modulation type 1.F3 – for fixed frequencies
2.F1 – for (POFT)

Number of pre-fixed frequencies 1.For fixed frequencies – 16 frequencies
2.For POFT – 16 channels

*Operation modes:*

1.Simplex
2.Semi-duplex
3.Duty reception
4.Simplex in one channel and duty reception in another channel

*Transmitted information*:

1.Analog (audio) information providing code conversion (technical concealment)
2.Digital information
3.Short alpha-numeric code messages
4.Individual, group and tone calls

Information transmission speed in the digital channel 1 200, 2 400, 4 800, 9 600, 16 000 bit/s
Built-in test system Available, provides accuracy replacement up to typical component

*HF radio set* – Type HF, Tx/Rx Model R-163-50K
*Operation frequency band* – 2000-29999 kHz over a step of 1 kHz
*Number of pre-fixed frequencies* – 16
Communication range – vertical rod antenna 250km / inclined rod antenna 250km / dipole antenna 350km

*Crew intercom system*
*Model* – AVSK-1
*Number of subscribers* – 4, taking in view a socket of troop commander
*Headset* – ShSh1

*AUXILIARY POWER UNIT*
Diesel-electric auxiliary power unit is designed to supply power of tank users while at stop and with the main engine shut-off. The auxiliary power unit is arranged on the right fender in tight armoured box and connected to electrical, fuel and main engine cooling systems.

*Components*

Diesel 468A
DC starter-generator
Fuel consumption at max output mode, max 4 kg/hr
Time of start of drive engine without pre-start preparation, max30s
Continuous operation time, min 24hr

*GENERAL ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT*
*Type of scheme* – DC, single line (for emergency lightening – two line)
*Mains voltage* – is 22.5 – 28.5 V
*Mains protection system* – Automatic circuit breakers and fuses

*Storage batteries*
*Type* – Lead-acid battery
*Model* – 12SТ-85
*Quantity* – 4
*Electric capacity of one battery* – 85 A·hr
*Total electric capacity of batteries* - 340 A·hr
*Rated voltage of a battery* – 24V

*Relay-regulator Model* – RN505M1

*Rotary junction box Model -* VKU-1

*DC starter-generator Model* – SG-18-1S

*DRIVER’S DIGITAL INSTRUMENTATION PANEL*
*The driver’s digital instrument panel is intended to control the tank’s systems:*

1. Operation of the pre-heater
2. Main engine pre-starting and starting
3. Traffic lights operation
4. Emergency warning
5. Indication of current parameters of the engine and transmission
6. Protection of the engine against wrong actions of the driver during engine pre-starting and starting
*Overall dimensions* – 640x390x235mm / Weight 22 kg

*Components of the driver’s digital instrument panel:*

1. Engine and transmission current parameter indication panel
2. Engine pre-starting and starting control panel
3. Air intake device pipe, bilge pump and directional gyro control panel
4. Traffic lights control panel
5. Fuel and oil level indication panel
6. Transmission control equipment protection and switching-on unitT

*The driver’s digital instrument panel is connected to the vehicle mains (V/DC) and ensures the following:*

1. Displaying information about the parameters of the vehicle with the aid of the current parameter indication panel (vehicle speed, vehicle mileage, engine crankshaft rotation speed, engine coolant temperature, engine oil temperature, engine oil pressure, transmission oil pressure, engine operation time, vehicle mains voltage, value of the currant in the circuit of charging/discharging the storage batteries)
2. Odisplaying information about the amount of fuel and oil available in the vehicle
3. Control of the actuating mechanisms (by means of using relevant buttons and toggle switches)
4. Automated procedure for preparation of the engine for starting
5. Control of the outer lighting/warning devices (headlights, marker lights, turning lights, horn signal)

*AIR CONDITIONING SYSTEM OF THE CREW COMPARTMENT*
The air conditioning system is intended to ensure crew comfort in the crew compartment by means of cooling, drying, heating and ventilating the air in the compartment.

The air conditioning system consists of two air conditioners (one is installed in the tank hull, and the other, in the tank turret). This approach makes it possible to ensure efficient processing of air in both the driver’s compartment and the fighting compartment of the tank.

Either of the air conditioners comprises a compressing-and-condensing unit, air processing unit, power unit, control panel, connecting pipes and electrical cables.

The air conditioner is a steam-compressing unit, which is installed in the turret or in the hull of the tank and consists of two main units: compressing-and-condensing unit and air processing unit. The compressing-and-condensing unit is connected to outside air, while the air processing unit sucks in and then lets out the air of the crew compartment. The compressing-and-condensing unit is water-tight, so there is no need for any preparation of the unit before water obstacle crossing.

Heating is ensured by installing electric heaters in the air processing unit.

*TECHNICAL CHARACTERISTICS*
*Total weight* - 51ton’s
*Crew* – 3
*Power-to-weight ratio* - at least 18.2 kW (24.7 hp/t)
*Specific ground pressure* – within 0.097 MPa (0.97 kgf/cm2)
*Operating temperature* - range -40 to +55 °C
*Main dimensions* – Length gun forward 9720mm / gun rearward 9750mm / hull 7075mm / Width without removable side skirts 3400mm / with *removable side skirts* – 4176mm
*Length of track on ground* - 4290mm
*Ground clearance* - 470-500mm
*Track* - 2800mm
*Operational data* (single tank in various terrain conditions)
*Movement speed* – Average (on dry natural soil road) 40-45km/h / Maximum (on hard-surface road) 70km/h
*In reverse gear* – Minimum 4.8km/h / maximum 31.3km/h
*Fuel consumption per 100km* – on dry natural soil road 325-370lt / on hard-surface road up to 300lt
*Cruising distance* – on dry natural soil road by using fuel from main fuel tanks 350km / by using fuel from additional fuel tanks 450km
*Gradient* – 32 degrees
*Side slope* – 25 degrees
*Trench* – 2.85m
*Obstacle* – 1m
*Deep fording* – (without preparation) 1.8m
*Crossing water obstacles by using deep water fording equipment* – depth 5m / width no limits
*Ammunition for the main gun* - 46 (28 in automatic loader)
*Gun ammunition types* - HE-FRAG, APFSDS, HEAT, GM
*KT-7.62 machine gun* - 1250rds (250×5)
*KT-12.7 machine gun* - 450 rds (150×3)
*AKS submachine gun* - 450 rds
*F-1 hand grenades* – 10
*Aerosol grenades* – 12

The Ukrainian T-84 Oplot Main Battle Tank | TankNutDave

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## Audio

Vadym Kovalenko said:


> You are writing nonsense.
> 1) Ukraine is a transit system by itself. The only gas storage is situated on ukrainian territory near Poland border. Russia hasnt it at western direction. Ukraine is the only way for gas moving from Russia to Europe thats why Ukraine cant be cut-off.



Doubling of Russia=>Germany pipeline capacity is more or less designed to leave Ukraine out of the picture and insure a smooth gas flow irregardless of what the status is in Ukraine.



Vadym Kovalenko said:


> 2) Ukraine is paying for gas. The only disput in a courts is about price but not about facts of paying.



Eh lol....paid with IMF money.




Vadym Kovalenko said:


> 3) Both countries are selling common stuff to each other but Ukraine refused to sell military and space stuff to Russia, including parts for tanks, engines for helicopters and navy, service of AN-series planes, Зенит-3SLB, producing and service of *SS-18 Satan, *SS-18 mod 6 Voevoda*, *which are part of nuclear power of Russia



Export blockade of Ukraine by Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For a start....

Anyhow, i removed myself from this thread because it's a thread about a tank, not gas/oil/payment disputes. I will not reply to any further comments of yours in regards to this in this thread.


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## Andrei_bt

T-80UD in US service (with APS)

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## StArk 13

kaonalpha said:


> View attachment 236795
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 236796
> View attachment 236797
> 
> 
> The oplot M has been considerd over the MBT 3000. It is official that Pakistan will not pursue the MB-3000
> 
> Certain change will be made.Allow me to further explain. The Ukrainians have offered the tank a standard version.
> 
> Our demand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus Demand of local manufacturing of spare parts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I say local yes I say with confidance that we have demanded that 60% of the components be made in Pakistan.


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## mike2000 is back

Vadym Kovalenko said:


> You are writing nonsense.
> 1) Ukraine is a transit system by itself. The only gas storage is situated on ukrainian territory near Poland border. Russia hasnt it at western direction. Ukraine is the only way for gas moving from Russia to Europe thats why Ukraine cant be cut-off.
> 2) Ukraine is paying for gas. The only disput in a courts is about price but not about facts of paying.
> 3) Both countries are selling common stuff to each other but Ukraine refused to sell military and space stuff to Russia, including parts for tanks, engines for helicopters and navy, service of AN-series planes, Зенит-3SLB, producing and service of *SS-18 Satan, *SS-18 mod 6 Voevoda*, *which are part of nuclear power of Russia



Interesting.........NO wonder Russia wants Ukraine back so bad.


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## StArk 13

kaonalpha said:


> View attachment 236795
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 236796
> View attachment 236797
> 
> 
> The oplot M has been considerd over the MBT 3000. It is official that Pakistan will not pursue the MB-3000
> 
> Certain change will be made.Allow me to further explain. The Ukrainians have offered the tank a standard version.
> 
> Our demand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus Demand of local manufacturing of spare parts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When say local yes sIay with confidance that we have demanded that 60% of the components be made in Pakistan.


Atlast a 50+ tons of weight tank with good overall protection,big turret,most modern systems and good firepower with remote weapon station.T-84 Oplot M is the best choice for Pakistan.Atlast we'll have one of most modern tank's in World.and the best part is....We won't need to upgrade our T-84 Oplot M for a long time as they are already equipped with most modern systems

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## TheFlyingPretzel

I'd like to point something out.

This thread is exciting, enjoyable and a dream to read not just because the Oplot M is a promising tank and some of the members have made excellent contributions, but also because there are less than 5 odd Indian posts in 27 pages on this thread.

What a relief. I really wish all of def.pk was like this.

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## Basel

*Is this better then Oplot-M?? Will it be better to have??*

*The Ukrainian "Yatagan" Main Battle Tank*

The Ukrainian Yatagan Main Battle Tank (previously known as Yatahan) is a further development of the Oplot MBT fitted with a NATO 120mm smoothbore gun fed by a bustle-mounted automatic loader. It was first marketed for the Turkish field trials for a new MBT. The Yatagan MBT uses locally produced components and subsystems, although systems of foreign origin can be incorporated at the customer’s request. This MBT was designed in 2000. Its design features the technical solutions tested during modernisation of T-72-120 battle tank. In some publications the Yatagan MBT was also referred to as the KERN2-120 (name of prototype) or the T-84-120.





The Ukrainian Yatagan Main Battle Tank

*The Ukrainian Yatagan Main Battle Tank Specifications*
*Dimensions: *
*Length (gun forward)* – 9.664m
*Length (hull)* - 7.705m
*Width (over tracks)* - 3.5m
*Width (with skirts)* - 3.7m
*Height (turret roof)* - 2.2m
*Height (including roof-mounted 12.7mm MG)* - 2.7m
*Ground clearance* – 0.51m
*Track width* - 0.58m
*Track* – 2.8m
*Length of track on ground* - 4.29m

*General characteristics: *
*Crew* - 3
*Combat weight* – 48ton’s
*Power-to-weight ratio* - 25hp/t
*Ground pressure* - 0.93kg/cm²
*Max road speed* – 65km/h
*Average cross-country speed* – 45-50km/h
*Fuel capacity* – 1300litres
*Operating temperature range -* °C -40 to +55
*Cruising range* – road 540km / cross-country 350-400km
*Fording* - without preparation 1.8m / with preparation 5m
*Gradient* – 63%
*Side slope* – 36%
*Vertical obstacle* - 1m
*Trench* – 2.85m
*Engine* - Model 6TD-2 twin-stroke, multi-fuel, liquid-cooled 6-cylinder diesel engine, fuel injected, developing 1,200 hp at 2,600 rpm generates 1200hp
*Transmission* – mechanical, epicycle train with 7 forward and 5 reverse gears
*Suspension* - torsion bar
*Armament* - 120mm smoothbore gun / coaxial 7.62mm KT-7.62 machine gun / anti-aircraft 12.7mm KT-12.7 machine gun
*Ammunition storage* - 120mm rds 40 (22 in automatic loader) coaxial 4000 rds / for anti-aircraft machine gun 450 rds






The Ukrainian Yatagan Main Battle Tank | TankNutDave


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## Andrei_bt

Some upgrade ideas for t-72 (type-85) -style tanks with Yatagan autoloader and Duplet ERA -

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## FunkyGen

Sid5150 said:


> Hi there


Just don't troll and you'll see we are pretty hospitable 



TheFlyingPretzel said:


> I'd like to point something out.
> 
> This thread is exciting, enjoyable and a dream to read not just because the Oplot M is a promising tank and some of the members have made excellent contributions, but also because there are less than 5 odd Indian posts in 27 pages on this thread.
> 
> What a relief. I really wish all of def.pk was like this.


refreshing is the word!

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## kaonalpha

TheFlyingPretzel said:


> I'd like to point something out.
> 
> This thread is exciting, enjoyable and a dream to read not just because the Oplot M is a promising tank and some of the members have made excellent contributions, but also because there are less than 5 odd Indian posts in 27 pages on this thread.
> 
> What a relief. I really wish all of def.pk was like this.


You had to ask

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## Blue Marlin

Andrei_bt said:


> Yes they are if they are variants with welded turret (AFAIK 90% of supplied).
> 
> There are several options for modernization including 2 options of armor modernization. From T-80UD (device 478BE) it is possible to receive an Oplot (device 478DU-9-1) as 100% equivalent.
> 
> Actually as I known the talks about modernization of T-80UD were even before the ideas to test a new tank. I can’t speak a lot, but maybe those members of this forum who are inside the situation can tell about last years visit of Pakistani delegation to Ukraine. They where very impressed by armor technology shown during firing trials.


given that pakistan likes the oplot-m what are the chances of pakistan co producing them or buying them?


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## TheFlyingPretzel

FunkyGen said:


> Just don't troll and you'll see we are pretty hospitable
> 
> 
> refreshing is the word!





kaonalpha said:


> You had to ask



Haha. Reported him (that freshie Indian).

It's so _refreshing_, as FunkyGen's correctly put it, not having to constantly put up with their moronic statements. Take a look at this thread. It's a prime example of systematic cooperation and constructive interaction between intelligent and contributing members. Add an Indian or two, and the entire thing goes to shit. They are a recipe for disaster. Makes me cringe. Admin's reluctance to permaban the IPs of troublesome Indians is groundless (which is a significant majority of them).

To hell with traffic. Put forum quality before revenue from advertisements.

Pakistan Defence League - Permaban (P)

Lol. Chairman ke elections karwao. Iss forum ko bhi tsunami ki zarurat hai.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

TheFlyingPretzel said:


> I'd like to point something out.
> 
> This thread is exciting, enjoyable and a dream to read not just because the Oplot M is a promising tank and some of the members have made excellent contributions, but also because there are less than 5 odd Indian posts in 27 pages on this thread.
> 
> What a relief. I really wish all of def.pk was like this.


You want this one to be ruined ? For once our friends (Indian Members) should be appreciated for not creating problems.



blue marlin said:


> given that pakistan likes the oplot-m what are the chances of pakistan co producing them or buying them?


For a few years Pakistan was monitoring the development of Oplot-M and when it was offered a few years back in IDEAS it was with TOT. Last month finally it was delivered and tested and now it is chosen...


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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> Time to tag Horus and close this thread.


What will this Tank be named ? Will it be called AL-HAIDER ?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Zarvan said:


> What will this Tank be named ? Will it be called AL-HAIDER ?


You do not like the original name? T84-OPLOT

@Horus Pls do what @kaonalpha is asking before this thread is destroyed...

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## kaonalpha

RAMPAGE said:


> Put @ before a members name.
> 
> Example: @kaonalpha
> 
> @kaonalpha
> 
> Our version will have rubber flaps or armour blocks on the frontal arc?



Armour blocks most likely.


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## RAMPAGE

kaonalpha said:


> Armour blocks most likely.


What is the rubber for?


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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> Armour blocks most likely.


Sir will the name remain T-84 OPLOT M or what ?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

kaonalpha said:


> Armour blocks most likely.


Is HIT going to require further expansion in regards to these new additions?


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## kaonalpha

I don't know neither does any one else. 
That will be decided later. 



Zarvan said:


> Sir will the name remain T-84 OPLOT M or what ?

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## Armstrong

Vadym Kovalenko said:


> You are writing nonsense.
> 1) Ukraine is a transit system by itself. The only gas storage is situated on ukrainian territory near Poland border. Russia hasnt it at western direction. Ukraine is the only way for gas moving from Russia to Europe thats why Ukraine cant be cut-off.
> 2) Ukraine is paying for gas. The only disput in a courts is about price but not about facts of paying.
> 3) Both countries are selling common stuff to each other but Ukraine refused to sell military and space stuff to Russia, including parts for tanks, engines for helicopters and navy, service of AN-series planes, Зенит-3SLB, producing and service of *SS-18 Satan, *SS-18 mod 6 Voevoda*, *which are part of nuclear power of Russia



Welcome to the forum !

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## TheFlyingPretzel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> You want this one to be ruined ? For once our friends (Indian Members) should be appreciated for not creating problems.
> 
> 
> For a few years Pakistan was monitoring the development of Oplot-M and when it was offered a few years back in IDEAS it was with TOT. Last month finally it was delivered and tested and now it is chosen...



To be honest there's probably nothing to appreciate them for. The reason you don't find them in this thread is because a large majority of them most certainly just learnt that there were other tanks out there in the world than just the AK and the Arjun. Give it time and once they're acclimatized to the relatively new world of tanks (oh God all those newbies) you'll find them all over Oplot M threads using the words "Kontakt-5", "Kaktus K-6" and "Shtora-1" as if they invented and installed them on the T-90. They are absolutely incorrigible.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Sir will the name remain T-84 OPLOT M or what ?


Unlike our neighbours we don't change names of foriegn systems.

P.S: OPLOT M isn't t-84۔

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## Zarvan

Oplot M and this beast a combination to dangerous for enemies

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## cabatli_53

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 237331



This thread is really informative in terms of Russian/Ukrainian tank developments.

About Oplot-M, Thermal sight looks quite big which enables to block back gun.
Oplot has two independant sight system like Altay and Leopard 2A6 or Is it just one on top ? It semsn that T-90MS has two sight system commander/gunner unlike Oplots.


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## kaonalpha

That can be adjusted. 


cabatli_53 said:


> This thread is really informative in terms of Russian/Ukrainian tank developments.
> 
> About Oplot-M, Thermal sight looks quite big which enables to block back gun.
> Oplot has two independant sight system like Altay and Leopard 2A6 or Is it just one on top ? It semsn that T-90MS has two sight system commander/gunner unlike Oplots.


a

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## cabatli_53

Dazzler said:


> Actually , Peleng of Belarus has been supplying many sights for Russian MBTs and AFVs for many many years now. Russians are pretty good with armour but quite weak in optics and sights.




As far as I know Russian industry have some defficiency for advanced chip technologies as well so outsourcing own designed chips to Israel like countries for production. Some Russian members I have talked underlined cost issues of producing chips at home so producing them at foreign bases which is cost/effective. At a likely strong embargo, It seems that Russia will fall into serious difficulties.


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## Andrei_bt

> About Oplot-M, Thermal sight looks quite big which enables to block back gun.



This was decided to allow commander to aim HMG at +60 degrees high with panoramic sight -









cabatli_53 said:


> It semsn that T-90MS has two sight system commander/gunner unlike Oplots.



How can you imagine a tank without gunner sight system ? 

Oplot has panoramic sight - 






Gunner day channel sight and laser missile guiding with -





and night - low visibility sight (thermal chanel) -

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## cabatli_53

Andrei_bt said:


> This was decided to allow commander to aim HMG at +60 degrees high with panoramic sight -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you imagine a tank without gunner sight system ?
> 
> Oplot has panoramic sight -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunner day channel sight and laser missile guiding with -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and night - low visibility sight (thermal chanel) -





It is not possible a tank without gunner's sight indeed but What I am talking is two seperate but full capable periscopes which have all day/night sight functions for commander and gunner, two seperate control unit for commander and gunner + auxiliary sight unit for gunner and two seperate fire control system for commander and gunner under a common 360 degree IR situation awareness + four radar for target detection + 360 degree IFF systems + LWR. Both periscopes controlled by fire control system can be switched to eachothers in acordance with neccesity of conditions. Panoramic periscope have automatic search and tracking functions. When It is needed, The stabilized gun locating at the top of turret can be controlled by commander's fire control system which allows commander to direct 120mm gun + co-axial machine gun + RCWS on same target or operate them seperately. Fire control systems' electronic boxes and integrated circuits have spares inside of tank and When It is needed, The electronic units can be changed with spares. That's what Aselsan developed for Altay under the name of new generation fire control system.

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## cabatli_53

TAKS for Altay






Tank command control Information system has four seperate screening unit for driver + gunner + loader + commander.






All crew members will have opportunity to receive informations taken from 360 degree active/passive sensors and situation awareness systems on their own monitors.

Altay will have a similar digital map technology like STM FocusFlite. Same company is charged to developed it. All 4 crew have their own screens and the system provides software based numerical encrypted communication. The system provides terrain information, friend and foe positions, 3D numerical battlefield map, mission planning, integrated with ADOP-2000 and MSYS tactical field command and control.





With integration of four Akkor C band radars, Altay will have reached impressive monitoring opportunity against all type of missiles/munitions.







Munitions having Rf seeker on heads to be placed at the top of turret will destroy all type of missiles/munitions from HEAT to ATGM, RPG.





Destroyed LAW munition in trials






A highly precision stabilized gun system called SARP will be the small arm of tank in urban warfare.






At a likely subsystem cooperation between Pakistan and Turkey, The systems told above will be on the table for Pakistani tank upgrade solutions.

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## Inception-06

RAMPAGE said:


> What is the rubber for?



additional protection against top attack weapons and to defeat detection by battlefield radar, anti-radar coating is provided and the tank turret is fitted with a collar of rubber skirts which hang from the turret front and reduce the radar signature ! Dont know why Alkhalid Tank does not have this feature ! @Dazzler

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## cabatli_53

_The factory that made the steel plate for Ukrainian armor is out of commission after being hit by about 160 artillery shells. They cant make ANY armor plate now or anymore engines for tanks._

Ukrainian members, That is true ?


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## Levon

cabatli_53 said:


> Ukrainian members, That is true ?



It's a fake.

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## Inception-06

Levon said:


> It's a fake.



Nice to see you Frontline posters here, keep on ! Salute !

by the way to all members bharatfuckshut.com(bharatrakshak.com IDF) is burning because of Pakistans acquire of all new weapons for Army, Air Force and Navy !

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## mingle

cabatli_53 said:


> TAKS for Altay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tank command control Information system has four seperate screening unit for driver + gunner + loader + commander.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All crew members will have opportunity to receive informations taken from 360 degree active/passive sensors and situation awareness systems on their own monitors.
> 
> Altay will have a similar digital map technology like STM FocusFlite. Same company is charged to developed it. All 4 crew have their own screens and the system provides software based numerical encrypted communication. The system provides terrain information, friend and foe positions, 3D numerical battlefield map, mission planning, integrated with ADOP-2000 and MSYS tactical field command and control.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With integration of four Akkor C band radars, Altay will have reached impressive monitoring opportunity against all type of missiles/munitions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Munitions having Rf seeker on heads to be placed at the top of turret will destroy all type of missiles/munitions from HEAT to ATGM, RPG.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Destroyed LAW munition in trials
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A highly precision stabilized gun system called SARP will be the small arm of tank in urban warfare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At a likely subsystem cooperation between Pakistan and Turkey, The systems told above will be on the table for Pakistani tank upgrade solutions.


Pak is using turkish subsystems on his AK tanks used to french Thales all replaced by turkish been discussed on other PDF forum

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## fatman17

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> india has yet to produce or develop a decent "APDS" ... This has been discussed to death .. @Dazzler. What was the highest penetration value claimed by indian ? 400ish?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oplot M weights around 51 tons... AK at 48.



Also remember our bridging system over canals and rivers can't take weights over 55 tons.

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## FunkyGen

mingle said:


> Pak is using turkish subsystems on his AK tanks used to french Thales all replaced by turkish been discussed on other PDF forum


could you point me to the thread?


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## Dazzler

cabatli_53 said:


> TAKS for Altay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tank command control Information system has four seperate screening unit for driver + gunner + loader + commander.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All crew members will have opportunity to receive informations taken from 360 degree active/passive sensors and situation awareness systems on their own monitors.
> 
> Altay will have a similar digital map technology like STM FocusFlite. Same company is charged to developed it. All 4 crew have their own screens and the system provides software based numerical encrypted communication. The system provides terrain information, friend and foe positions, 3D numerical battlefield map, mission planning, integrated with ADOP-2000 and MSYS tactical field command and control.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With integration of four Akkor C band radars, Altay will have reached impressive monitoring opportunity against all type of missiles/munitions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Munitions having Rf seeker on heads to be placed at the top of turret will destroy all type of missiles/munitions from HEAT to ATGM, RPG.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Destroyed LAW munition in trials
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A highly precision stabilized gun system called SARP will be the small arm of tank in urban warfare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At a likely subsystem cooperation between Pakistan and Turkey, The systems told above will be on the table for Pakistani tank upgrade solutions.



Sorry mate, Altay is not an option for pakistan. Live with it.

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## BordoEnes

@kaonalpha 

In the couple years we have seen many Pakistani/Turkish Forumers that are eager to see a potential purchase/production of the Altay Tank for Pakistan, However do you know if the Pakistani army realisticly considered Altay as an option ever?


----------



## kaonalpha

BordoEnes said:


> @kaonalpha
> 
> In the couple years we have seen many Pakistani/Turkish Forumers that are eager to see a potential purchase/production of the Altay Tank for Pakistan, However do you know if the Pakistani army realisticly considered Altay as an option ever?


$$$

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## BordoEnes

kaonalpha said:


> $$$



Fair enough..


----------



## Malik Alashter

cabatli_53 said:


> It is normal since There are 2-3 countries that is able to produce those critical proven thermal imager technologies in NATO and The countries who want to produce own thermal sight systems, should order critical components from those few sources inside/outside NATO. In additions, Noone of India and Russia have thermal imager technologies so You can see SAGEM detectors on Russian attack helicopters and tanks as well.
> 
> Turkey is among those rare states that have succesfully developed 2nd and 3rd generation imager detectors after the research done during 15 years.


So Russia didn't produce these detectors so how about their products prior the ninties you mean they were buying from the nato their opponent.

How about China they don't produce them too?.


----------



## cabatli_53

Dazzler said:


> Sorry mate, Altay is not an option for pakistan. Live with it.



If you look at the post you quoted, It was Altay's subsystems told above, not Altay itself. There are some source like defencenews pointing out cooperation intention of HIT for Altay subsystems. With this way, It motivate all members from each side to compare minus/plus sides of both companies on their own ruling technologies to be benefical for Pakistan so Nothing strange to talk about them. Live with it or not, Personally don't care ! 



Malik Alashter said:


> So Russia didn't produce these detectors so how about their products prior the ninties you mean they were buying from the nato their opponent.
> 
> How about China they don't produce them too?.



It is known that Russia don't have such critical component technologies to be used on their own and wellknown platforms If nothing changed within 2-3 years. Russian members can also enlighten the thread regarding this issue. It is also impossible to succesfully develop those critical subsystems in such a short time. If you look at their upgrade solutions for attack helicopters for example, They offers foreign thermal and FLIR's for costumers. Thermal issue is a problem for Russians. Turkey ordered Kornet ATGM in past years but Turkish army did not satisfy sight performance of Kornets, especially in night conditions so Aselsan developed a new thermal sight system called SAGER which is superior to what Russia produced for Kornets.






About China, I don't know, They may have such detector technologies. I believe Japan and S. Korea have it. Different than those, Franch, Germany, USA, Sweeden, Israel have. Canada also developed 3rd generation Quantum well infrared detectors but I don't know whether they are industrially producing them to point out as supplier, since Producing the detectors on large numbers are more costly and difficult than developing a prototype on labratory scale.

Turkey started development of Quantum detectors in 1999. Today, Aselsan is among those mentioned developers which is able to produce them for own and costumers' requirements. Different type of detectors such as NIR, SWIR are under development phase for spy satellites and other applications.






Monitoring the Ankara with domestic detectors+ Pod





Usage areaes of those detectors are extremely wide from space to tanks, submarines, helicopters, frigates so Exportation of them are restricted with special pemissions.










You can watch all process of QWIP detectors in that video

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## Dazzler

cabatli_53 said:


> If you look at the post you quoted, It was Altay's subsystems told above, not Altay itself. There are some source like defencenews pointing out cooperation intention of HIT for Altay subsystems. With this way, It motivate all members from each side to compare minus/plus sides of both companies on their own ruling technologies to be benefical for Pakistan so Nothing strange to talk about them. Live with it or not, Personally don't care !
> 
> 
> 
> It is known that Russia don't have such critical component technologies to be used on their own and wellknown platforms If nothing changed within 2-3 years. Russian members can also enlighten the thread regarding this issue. It is also impossible to succesfully develop those critical subsystems in such a short time. If you look at their upgrade solutions for attack helicopters for example, They offers foreign thermal and FLIR's for costumers. Thermal issue is a problem for Russians. Turkey ordered Kornet ATGM in past years but Turkish army did not satisfy sight performance of Kornets, especially in night conditions so Aselsan developed a new thermal sight system called SAGER which is superior to what Russia produced for Kornets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About China, I don't know, They may have such detector technologies. I believe Japan and S. Korea have it. Different than those, Franch, Germany, USA, Sweeden, Israel have. Canada also developed 3rd generation Quantum well infrared detectors but I don't know whether they are industrially producing them to point out as supplier, since Producing the detectors on large numbers are more costly and difficult than developing a prototype on labratory scale.
> 
> Turkey started development of Quantum detectors in 1999. Today, Aselsan is among those mentioned developers which is able to produce them for own and costumers' requirements. Different type of detectors such as NIR, SWIR are under development phase for spy satellites and other applications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Monitoring the Ankara with domestic detectors+ Pod
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Usage areaes of those detectors are extremely wide from space to tanks, submarines, helicopters, frigates so Exportation of them are restricted with special pemissions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can watch all process of QWIP detectors in that video



You don't get it don't you? You don't have to market your products in every other thread. Read the title and reply accordingly. Even Pakistan is making some excellent tank subsystems being used on AK AZ and t-80ud. 

Hope you get it.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> india has yet to produce or develop a decent "APDS" ... This has been discussed to death .. @Dazzler. What was the highest penetration value claimed by indian ? 400ish?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oplot M weights around 51 tons... AK at 48.



Less than 500mm at 2000 meter front on the turret @0 °

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## cabatli_53

Dazzler said:


> You don't get it don't you? You don't have to market your products in every other thread. Read the title and reply accordingly. Even Pakistan is making some excellent tank subsystems being used on AK AZ and t-80ud.
> 
> Hope you get it.



Dude, Threads are to talk about every items to be pointed out by sources shared by members. None of us here are officials who is charged to market countries product portfolios so Talking about subsystem details of Altay as a candidate of Pakistani future tank projects should not get you irritate since There are some serious source telling cooperation issues with Turkey regarding upgrading/new tank solutions from *the mouth of HIT officials*. There are some other members who is voicing importance of such collaborations so Enlightening the details of tools which is being talked about under the name of alternative cooperation subject, is not a bad thing in a thread whose tittile is T-84 oplot M the *new* war horse of Pakistan*, *Since noone of us have any details about this tittile but having some source pointing out collaboration issues with Turkey but don't know whether It contains this new purchase or not. In additions, Talking about likely cooperations in paralel with sources has nothing to do with criticizing/decying Pakistani subsystem capabilities. We have just source and subjects in our hands and just expressing our ideas with some details in paralel with thread tittle. Now, Live it or not, your personnal choice...


----------



## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> You want this one to be ruined ? For once our friends (Indian Members) should be appreciated for not creating problems.
> 
> 
> For a few years Pakistan was monitoring the development of Oplot-M and when it was offered a few years back in IDEAS it was with TOT. Last month finally it was delivered and tested and now it is chosen...


now i am going to wait a long time for a press realise to confirm


----------



## Sulman Badshah

@WebMaster @Horus 

please delete the thread ... as officials haven't made it public yet 

other reason i have inboxed in the facebook page

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## FunkyGen

Dazzler said:


> There is the real you, I have nothing to do with sales but you surely are a turk salesman. If your analogy is taken at face value, no forum thread should have a title right? All the general discussions should be welcomed.
> 
> Buzz off mate its getting boring for me. Discuss on topic or go to your related forum. Save your sales pitch for some other time.


Calm down bro. why are you so angry?
He's a turk brother he can do sales pitch we should be fine with it, no?

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## Tipu7

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Unlike our neighbours we don't change names of foriegn systems.
> 
> P.S: OPLOT M isn't t-84۔


1500hp deserve a new name..... isn't it??
Let's not give them any JALALI name like AlHaider........ how about T84oplot P.......... P for Pakistan........

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## Zarvan

Request to mods here please delete photos of T-84 OPLOT M under going tests here because a Brigadier level officer has contacted some members of forum through Facebook and requested this. Officer credibility is online 
@WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @IRFAN ALI BALOCH @Irfan Baloch @Manticore @waz

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Zarvan said:


> Request to mods here please delete photos of T-84 OPLOT M under going tests here because a Brigadier level officer has contacted some members of forum through Facebook and requested this. Officer credibility is online
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @IRFAN ALI BALOCH @Irfan Baloch @Manticore @waz


Any chance of Iranian deal with world powers going to have an impact on Pakistan's products and vice versa...


----------



## Manticore

Zarvan said:


> Request to mods here please delete photos of T-84 OPLOT M under going tests here because a Brigadier level officer has contacted some members of forum through Facebook and requested this. Officer credibility is online
> @WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @IRFAN ALI BALOCH @Irfan Baloch @Manticore @waz


tell me post numbers where the pics are posted .. ive deleted the op


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## Zarvan

Manticore said:


> tell me post numbers where the pics are posted .. ive deleted the op


It was mainly on original post and the tests are not complete yet Sir still on going


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## Andrei_bt

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Any chance of Iranian deal with world powers going to have an impact on Pakistan's products and vice versa...



In what manner?
BTW iranian T-72+80UD -


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## HRK

@Manticore check following post of this thread
post 141 
post 206

post 1 form Another gift arrived MBT-3000 thread

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## kaonalpha

@ https://defence.pk/members/horus.15719/ 



There is only one solution to delete this thread wich I quoted earlier

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## SQ8

cabatli_53 said:


> Dude, Threads are to talk about every items to be pointed out by sources shared by members. None of us here are officials who is charged to market countries product portfolios so Talking about subsystem details of Altay as a candidate of Pakistani future tank projects should not get you irritate since There are some serious source telling cooperation issues with Turkey regarding upgrading/new tank solutions from *the mouth of HIT officials*. There are some other members who is voicing importance of such collaborations so Enlightening the details of tools which is being talked about under the name of alternative cooperation subject, is not a bad thing in a thread whose tittile is T-84 oplot M the *new* war horse of Pakistan*, *Since noone of us have any details about this tittile but having some source pointing out collaboration issues with Turkey but don't know whether It contains this new purchase or not. In additions, Talking about likely cooperations in paralel with sources has nothing to do with criticizing/decying Pakistani subsystem capabilities. We have just source and subjects in our hands and just expressing our ideas with some details in paralel with thread tittle. Now, Live it or not, your personnal choice...



To put it from a more authoritative and sensible standpoint, let me say it clear. The T-84 is NOT the main punch of Pakistan but rather the stop gap upgrade to an increasingly old fleet. To give you an analogy, the F-16 Block 50+ made by TAI is NOT going to be the best war horse that Turkey is going to have but so far it is the best Turkey has till its F-35 and T-X come into play. In addition, it allows turkey to finally retire a good section of its aging F-4 and F-5 fleet which were getting old beyond upgrades. The same goes for Pakistan's tank fleet. 
So is the Altay out of the question or any other future competitor or local development? NO
What it means is that till Pakistan decides on another mainstay to become the core of its strike force.. the T-84 will be the 1-2 punch along with Al Khalid till another tank comes online in the next 6-10 years. 

Anladim mi?

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## Neptune

Oscar said:


> To put it from a more authoritative and sensible standpoint, let me say it clear. The T-84 is NOT the main punch of Pakistan but rather the stop gap upgrade to an increasingly old fleet. To give you an analogy, the F-16 Block 50+ made by TAI is NOT going to be the best war horse that Turkey is going to have but so far it is the best Turkey has till its F-35 and T-X come into play. In addition, it allows turkey to finally retire a good section of its aging F-4 and F-5 fleet which were getting old beyond upgrades. The same goes for Pakistan's tank fleet.
> So is the Altay out of the question or any other future competitor or local development? NO
> What it means is that till Pakistan decides on another mainstay to become the core of its strike force.. the T-84 will be the 1-2 punch along with Al Khalid till another tank comes online in the next 6-10 years.
> 
> Anladim mi?



I give you 90 out of 100 for your Turkish  correct form shall be "Anladın mı?"

B2T, F-5s are long gone since years along with fighter role phantoms


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## Tipu7

Neptune said:


> I give you 90 out of 100 for your Turkish  correct form shall be "Anladın mı?"
> 
> B2T, F-5s are long gone since years along with fighter role phantoms


Atlay is going to replace Patton series or leopard1 tank?
Also how many atlay Turkey want to induct? What about Leipard2 NG?? Cute question, answers plz........


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## Blue Marlin

Tipu7 said:


> Atlay is going to replace Patton series or leopard1 tank?
> Also how many atlay Turkey want to induct? What about Leipard2 NG?? Cute question, answers plz........


they are planning to buy 1000 in total and they will be introduce in 4 batches of 250 which is obvious. and upgrades in later tanks will be installed on to earlier tanks


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## Neptune

Tipu7 said:


> Atlay is going to replace Patton series or leopard1 tank?
> Also how many atlay Turkey want to induct? What about Leipard2 NG?? Cute question, answers plz........



It'll repace the M48s and M60s (not Israeli Sabras).

1000 Altay MBT with four separate badges. A mass NG modernization of Leopards have been offered to Land Forces by Aselsan, no orders yet. But after or during the delivery of later badges, the Naval Forces will retire M48s and replace them with transfers from the Army. It'll either be Sabra tanks or Leopard 2A4, if they receive Leos, Navy will probably sign deal for NG Upgrade for units of both Naval Infantry Armored Battalion and the future Amphibious Battalion Task Force of LHD at near 2020.

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## SQ8

Neptune said:


> I give you 90 out of 100 for your Turkish  correct form shall be "Anladın mı?"
> 
> B2T, F-5s are long gone since years along with fighter role phantoms


Tamam,

Wrote too fast. 

So you understand what this represents.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Neptune said:


> It'll repace the M48s and M60s (not Israeli Sabras).
> 
> 1000 Altay MBT with four separate badges. A mass NG modernization of Leopards have been offered to Land Forces by Aselsan, no orders yet. But after or during the delivery of later badges, the Naval Forces will retire M48s and replace them with transfers from the Army. It'll either be Sabra tanks or Leopard 2A4, if they receive Leos, Navy will probably sign deal for NG Upgrade for units of both Naval Infantry Armored Battalion and the future Amphibious Battalion Task Force of LHD at near 2020.




The OPLOT Ms are to replace these:








Our main or first tier tank is AK.. And it's future variants... We need to replace old tin cans aka Type-59s,62 and even 85IIM's.

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## Dazzler

balixd said:


> Edited.


Eventually you blew the cover yourself


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## Amaa'n

balixd said:


> Edited.


@Horus, why was my post edited? 



Dazzler said:


> Eventually you blew the cover yourself


oh no Janab,
source of pics was consulted first, also now that the cat is out of bag & everything being in open, it would be cruel to not show the pics to these guys.....
I deserve a thumbs up atleast for sitting on these since last Dec .......ab tu gur gur oh rahi thi pait mein

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## Super Falcon

I think mbt 3000 is way forward changes will be made if any issues which i dont see any yet at other hand T 84 is playing a loosing battle we need next generation tank which T 84 is not going to fullfill


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> @Horus, why was my post edited?
> 
> oh no Janab,
> source of pics was consulted first, also now that the cat is out of bag & everything being in open, it would be cruel to not show the pics to these guys.....
> I deserve a thumbs up atleast for sitting on these since last Dec .......ab tu gur gur oh rahi thi pait mein


Sir thanks for that Sir and Sir the officer who contacted members on facebook has said tests and trials are not complete yet. And What is the status of AK 2 Sir ?



Super Falcon said:


> I think mbt 3000 is way forward changes will be made if any issues which i dont see any yet at other hand T 84 is playing a loosing battle we need next generation tank which T 84 is not going to fullfill


MBT-3000 has failed tests Man we can't induct a Tank which would fail in battle. T-84 Oplot M is more advance than MBT-3000 and far far far more advance if compared to latest model of T-90


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## Super Falcon

Only time will tell yet full report to come by pak army on mbt 3000


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## Tipu7

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The OPLOT Ms are to replace these:
> 
> View attachment 237612
> 
> 
> 
> Our main or first tier tank is AK.. And it's future variants... We need to replace old tin cans aka Type-59s,62 and even 85IIM's.


We operate almost 1200 Type59,69,85
Oplot is going to replace all of these?? Or will be inducted in the golden figures if 300?? And What about AZ???


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## Blue Marlin

Tipu7 said:


> We operate almost 1200 Type59,69,85
> Oplot is going to replace all of these?? Or will be inducted in the golden figures if 300?? And What about AZ???


if they are actually being implemented then most likely


----------



## 帅的一匹

kaonalpha said:


> Not you our political parties try to get it via stopping development and demanding a so called fee.
> 
> China has always been gracious in extending it's towards us.
> 
> Nothing personal but the mbt 3000 has faults. What exactly it will be clear in the coming months. But we might try to use it from a different perspective.


On what base you conclude that MBT3000 has faults, do you have any official report to support your claim. Ukraine company always give kickback, keep in mind.


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## Zarvan

wanglaokan said:


> On what base you conclude that MBT3000 has faults, do you have any official report to support your claim. Ukraine company always give kickback, keep in mind.


MBT-3000 failed in Desert Tests


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## kaonalpha

On the basis that the MBT 3000 is has bren trialed by our military and they do not find it as impressive as Norinco claimed it would be. Maybe if you offer type 99G then maybe we will be interested. 




wanglaokan said:


> On what base you conclude that MBT3000 has faults, do you have any official report to support your claim. Ukraine company always give kickback, keep in mind.

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## 帅的一匹

In a war, for example, MBT3000 is a way of continuous replenishment for Pak army. Don't blame those old Chinese tanks @Hakan , they hold Pakistan back in tough time.



kaonalpha said:


> On the basis that the MBT 3000 is has bren trialed by our military and they do not find it as impressive as Norinco claimed it would be. Maybe if you offer type 99G then maybe we will be interested.


Type 99G is not ready for export yet, maybe in the future. @Zarvan Can you share some detail about the MBT3000 desert test fail,I get quite interested.

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## kaonalpha

Which tanks hold us back.?





wanglaokan said:


> In a war, for example, MBT3000 is a way of continuous replenishment for Pak army. Don't blame those old Chinese tanks @Hakan , they hold Pakistan back in tough time.

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## 帅的一匹

kaonalpha said:


> Which tanks hold us back.?


I mean those tanks helped lots in the conflicts with India, although they are outdated now. My English problem.

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## kaonalpha

wanglaokan said:


> I mean those tanks helped lots in the conflicts with India, although they are outdated now. My English problem.


Outdated yes but Norinco shouldn't take us.for a ride by giving us mbt 3000 whicj merely has additional armour and a.remote control wewpons station.

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## 帅的一匹

kaonalpha said:


> Outdated yes but Norinco shouldn't take us.for a ride by giving us mbt 3000 whicj merely has additional armour and a.remote control wewpons station.


I don't think MBT3000 is that lame as you describe.

MBT3000 is also promoted to Middle East countries, desert operation shall be the first priority. what problem it has in desert test?


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## Tipu7

wanglaokan said:


> I don't think MBT3000 is that lame as you describe.
> 
> MBT3000 is also promoted to Middle East countries, desert operation shall be the first priority. what problem it has in desert test?


Those who conducted tests may answer...... no one knows


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## AsianLion

No source, no confirmation, no authentic details of Oplot-M, only confirmation is VT-4/MBT 3000 under trials.

I think some ppl are forwarding an agenda due to kickbacks from Ukrainians over Chinese.

Donot fall for unreliable news.

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## Dazzler

AsianUnion said:


> No source, no confirmation, no authentic details of Oplot-M, only confirmation is VT-4/MBT 3000 under trials.
> 
> I think some ppl are forwarding an agenda due to kickbacks from Ukrainians over Chinese.
> 
> Donot fall for unreliable news.



Didn't you see oplot pics being tested by army in this thread?? For a fact, the MBT 3000 showed dismal performance on few fronts and left many scratching their heads if it was an upgrade at all. I'll give more details when get the nod.

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## nk2120132471

well..it's time for us to get mbt3000 a new buyer..


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## gangsta_rap

Dazzler said:


> Didn't you see oplot pics being tested by army in this thread?? For a fact, the MBT 3000 showed dismal performance on few fronts and left many scratching their heads if it was an upgrade at all. I'll give more details when get the nod.



What???

I guess it shouldn't be too much of a shocker. The Abrams in the 1980s ended up collapsing in Bahawalpur after all.

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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> Didn't you see oplot pics being tested by army in this thread?? For a fact, the MBT 3000 showed dismal performance on few fronts and left many scratching their heads if it was an upgrade at all. I'll give more details when get the nod.


Sir who are the other two Tanks which were being tested ? One member also claims those two Tanks are not tested yet they are coming in December


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## Mani2020

We should give benefit of doubt to mbt-3000 and to those Chinese and other members who are trying to defend it or any other tank against t-84 oplot instead of pointing our guns at them and being mean and rude about it... which I have observed many members doing it

Just because someone said that someone told him and that someone has asked someone else should not be a criteria to reach to any conclusion or pass any kind of judgements. 

We know how at this forum we have rumor mills, someone comes up every 2nd day claiming something that his phupha chacha khaloo or some reference has told him... and we know how 70 percent of the times it turns out to be a lame or self made story just to increase ones rating or to satisfy some egos

I don't think someone within PA ranks would be foolish enough to disclose so much technical details to a civilian before two tanks haven't even tested yet as claimed by some individuals

Going by the so called info of some people I know on this forum; if that info was to be believed jf-17 would have been second to raptor only at this point in time

So until it's not official I believe everyone has right to defend his choice without being getting insulted or without others being rude about it

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## Tipu7

Mani2020 said:


> We should give benefit of doubt to mbt-3000 and to those Chinese and other members who are trying to defend it or any other tank against t-84 oplot instead of pointing our guns at them and being mean and rude about it... which I have observed many members doing it
> 
> Just because someone said that someone told him and that someone has asked someone else should not be a criteria to reach to any conclusion or pass any kind of judgements.
> 
> We know how at this forum we have rumor mills, someone comes up every 2nd day claiming something that his phupha chacha khaloo or some reference has told him... and we know how 70 percent of the times it turns out to be a lame or self made story just to increase ones rating or to satisfy some egos
> 
> I don't think someone within PA ranks would be foolish enough to disclose so much technical details to a civilian before two tanks haven't even tested yet as claimed by some individuals
> 
> Going by the so called info of some people I know on this forum; if that info was to be believed jf-17 would have been second to raptor only at this point in time
> 
> So until it's not official I believe everyone has right to defend his choice without being getting insulted or without others being rude about it



Is it Sasuke in your avatar??
Naruto fan?


----------



## Malik Alashter

Tipu7 said:


> Let's not give them any JALALI name like AlHaider


Haider is a name of the lion in Arabic.

Lion has almost 1500 name in Arabic one of them is haider.

Now if you mean alhaider Imam ALI PBUH yes you don't need to name it that way hust as a respect to that great IMAM.

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## Mani2020

Tipu7 said:


> Is it Sasuke in your avatar??
> Naruto fan?


Lol to be honest i have no idea who this is, i just use them randomly. Its just they look cool  @S.U.R.B. you had same query some years back, there was some other avatar back then

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## CHI RULES

Super Falcon said:


> I think mbt 3000 is way forward changes will be made if any issues which i dont see any yet at other hand T 84 is playing a loosing battle we need next generation tank which T 84 is not going to fullfill



I don't know what a way forward tech Mbt 3000 have, considering OPlot specs it looks way forward from existing fleet of Pak. Pls consider its defensive specs along with stealth/low visibility features. The deflector paint, cammo sheets and other features including armour protection make it way forward. Further we may cooperate with Turkey in case of Tank barrel in future to make it more effective.

Further in general if professional like KeonoAlpha sying that Pak has perhaps preferred T84 oplot then we should not give judgmental negative remarks against this decision as most of us are not professionals, the people involved in trials are not fools.

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## asad71

What fording/amphibian capability?


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## Blue Marlin

you will find this of interest
Ukrainian Journal
Pakistani media rumors turn purchase Chinese tanks abandoned Wu Tanke | Netease International News

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Malik Alashter said:


> Haider is a name of the lion in Arabic.
> 
> Lion has almost 1500 name in Arabic one of them is haider.
> 
> Now if you mean alhaider Imam ALI PBUH yes you don't need to name it that way hust as a respect to that great IMAM.



We dont name foriegn weapons ... we only name weapons that we produce...

AK = Al Khalid
AZ = Al Zarar
APC + ATGM = Muaz
Armoured logistic vehicle = Qaswa
Obs armoured vehicle = Raad
APC = Talha
Command and com center APC = Sakb

Than there are vehicles with fancy names
LAV
Dragoon
Protector
Muhafiz series.

F-22P = Zulfiqar Class (named on Hazrat Alis Sword)
UAVs like Ababeel etc

etc etc

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## black-hawk_101

PA is buying new or buying used ones with upgrades? How many of them T80 and T84? How many of them are operational till to date?


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## RAMPAGE

Malik Alashter said:


> Haider is a name of the lion in Arabic.
> 
> Lion has almost 1500 name in Arabic one of them is haider.
> 
> Now if you mean alhaider Imam ALI PBUH yes you don't need to name it that way hust as a respect to that great IMAM.


Nishan-e-Haider, Highest Military Honor of Pakistan is already named after Imam Ali R.A. Also, there is the Zulfiqar Class frigate.

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## Zarvan

black-hawk_101 said:


> PA is buying new or buying used ones with upgrades? How many of them T80 and T84? How many of them are operational till to date?


PA will produce and assemble in Pakistan and the Tank is T-84 Oplot M and How many well can't say but we think number would be at least 500

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## knight11

Armed forces conducts field trial of various weapons prior to induction to judge its pros and cons.
Pakistan army is doing field trial evolution of the T-84 oplot M and should not be consider as the sale till everything is clear. We can discuss the capabilities and specification in the mean time.


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## black-hawk_101

Zarvan said:


> PA will produce and assemble in Pakistan and the Tank is T-84 Oplot M and How many well can't say but we think number would be at least 500


 Better to start upgrading the current T-80 & T-85 to this standard. Also buy some used ones from old operators. So it would be a cheaper operation to induct better systems. Also, make this new tank @ HIT as AL KHALID3 .


----------



## knight11

kaonalpha said:


> And I suppose you are too stupid to see the last 32 pages.


Yeah lack of time but since i am not an expert but by guess is that PA will order upgraded Al-Khalid not oplot nor type 3000 lets see


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## kaonalpha

knight11 said:


> Yeah lack of time but since i am not an expert but by guess is that PA will order upgraded Al-Khalid not oplot nor type 3000 lets see


Your hopeless

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## imranyounus

I don't understand one thing if VT4MTB 3000 is improved MTB 2000 our AK than why are we looking to import it instead of trying to improve AK to VT 4 level or even better.


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## Blue Marlin

black-hawk_101 said:


> PA is buying new or buying used ones with upgrades? How many of them T80 and T84? How many of them are operational till to date?


320 t80ud.
T-80 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Zarvan

knight11 said:


> Yeah lack of time but since i am not an expert but by guess is that PA will order upgraded Al-Khalid not oplot nor type 3000 lets see


PA is also developing new AL KHALID but they will also adopt T-84 OPLOT M @kaonalpha 



imranyounus said:


> I don't understand one thing if VT4MTB 3000 is improved MTB 2000 our AK than why are we looking to import it instead of trying to improve AK to VT 4 level or even better.


The AL KHALID in use now has hardly anything which was originally in MBT-2000. Most parts were replaced by parts from Europe.


----------



## CHI RULES

imranyounus said:


> I don't understand one thing if VT4MTB 3000 is improved MTB 2000 our AK than why are we looking to import it instead of trying to improve AK to VT 4 level or even better.


Only basic structure of MBT 2000 and AK is perhaps same meanwhile as Mr Zarvan quoted their is no resemblance between two. We are using sights of french origin, previously gun barrels were also from France but now made in Pak, APS is of Ukraine Origin along with perhaps ATGMS and engine. Even ERA tiles are Pak made. MBT 2000 is used by Bangladesh Army in original form. It is same as people saying T84UD and T84 Oplot M are same. Though they may look like same but have major differences.


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## Cool_Soldier

PA might use T 84 M on different areas such as Western border.


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## Blue Marlin

Cool_Soldier said:


> PA might use T 84 M on different areas such as Western border.


if Pakistan is buying them then it will be used on it wester borders. no where else to put them. they are not going to use them against Iran or Afghanistan . if Pakistan is going to invest in this tank i would expect it to be india specific. more specifically desert capable(for use on the thar desert, obvious)


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## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> if Pakistan is buying them then it will be used on it wester borders. no where else to put them. they are not going to use them against Iran or Afghanistan . if Pakistan is going to invest in this tank i would expect it to be india specific. more specifically desert capable(for use on the thar desert, obvious)


India is on east not west


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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> India is on east not west


thanks for pointing that out. oops i i difficulty distinguishing the two, I'm badly dyslexic. even at 35



blue marlin said:


> thanks for pointing that out. oops i i difficulty distinguishing the two, I'm badly dyslexic. even at 35


but dont you agree with what i said though. @Zarvan



kaonalpha said:


> Your hopeless


he might have a point you know. it is a quicker/cheaper option to upgrade.


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## phantomrush

Unfortunately, if Pakistan sign a contract with Ukraine, it will get yourself a huge ***. For tank called that did not pass the test-firing is not possible.
Yes, yes, this tank was not full tests. And all his body is remake the T-80 remaining after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Quality steel BTR-4 to Iraq-a vivid example.

And do not believe the tales andrei_bt. Let them tell you about the "shame" Dozor-B. Or that a country in which civil war puts lattice old tanks, and repairs them at the expense of local residents and volunteers. Where is their vaunted "Tank" industry.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

phantomrush said:


> Unfortunately, if Pakistan sign a contract with Ukraine, it will get yourself a huge ***. For tank called that did not pass the test-firing is not possible.
> Yes, yes, this tank was not full tests. And all his body is remake the T-80 remaining after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
> Quality steel BTR-4 to Iraq-a vivid example.
> 
> And do not believe the tales andrei_bt. Let them tell you about the "shame" Dozor-B. Or that a country in which civil war puts lattice old tanks, and repairs them at the expense of local residents and volunteers. Where is their vaunted "Tank" industry.



T-80UD - over 325 serving with Pakistan without any problem..













P.S: OPLOT M isnt T-84 ...

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## Pakistanisage

waz said:


> Looks great, it's still being evaluated though right?
> I feel we are better off going with the Turks and Altay, which is turning out to be a beast.



I think given two systems that are comparable, we should definitely opt for one that involves
* " ToT and Joint Productions ".*

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## phantomrush

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> T-80UD - over 325 serving with Pakistan without any problem..
> 
> View attachment 239092
> 
> 
> View attachment 239093
> 
> 
> 
> P.S: OPLOT M isnt T-84 ...


So again, you want to get a T-80UD? Only with the questionable quality of armor, an old cannon, which was removed from another tank? Not easier to just buy a t-NEW 80UE-1 and its development? It will be much cheaper than buying "fake" new tanks. In addition, you do not get 6TD that a tanker just fiercely hate. You can go to the Russian tank forums, and see it. As for optics, etc., can be taken from the same T-90MS. This is clearly safer than taking in a country that is at war. And again, all of the elements of these systems are produced in Russia.


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## Tipu7

blue marlin said:


> thanks for pointing that out. oops i i difficulty distinguishing the two, I'm badly dyslexic. even at 35


Lol..........
Simple rule
East is on right side, west is on left side.......
Just consider Pakistan as mid point, not England........


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## CHI RULES

phantomrush said:


> Unfortunately, if Pakistan sign a contract with Ukraine, it will get yourself a huge ***. For tank called that did not pass the test-firing is not possible.
> Yes, yes, this tank was not full tests. And all his body is remake the T-80 remaining after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
> Quality steel BTR-4 to Iraq-a vivid example.
> 
> And do not believe the tales andrei_bt. Let them tell you about the "shame" Dozor-B. Or that a country in which civil war puts lattice old tanks, and repairs them at the expense of local residents and volunteers. Where is their vaunted "Tank" industry.


Dear Ukraine had expertise of manufacturing Tanks and several type of Radars/engines and same is case now but it does not mean their army should also be capable enough. Before Crimea/separatist crises they were having no threats to build credible Army. They have faced set backs as Russian special forces are operating there portraying as separatists.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

phantomrush said:


> So again, you want to get a T-80UD?



No.. we want Oplot M









> Only with the questionable quality of armor, an old cannon, which was removed from another tank?



Questionable armour? really?? as for old canon... never knew KBA-3 was an old canon taken from some other tank?

T-80UD have cast turrets of T-84.



> Not easier to just buy a t-NEW 80UE-1 and its development? It will be much cheaper than buying "fake" new tanks. In addition,


What?




> you do not get 6TD that a tanker just fiercely hate.



T-80UD is powered by l 6TD-1 6-cylinder diesel engine ..
KMDB - T80UD Main Battle Tank







> You can go to the Russian tank forums, and see it. As for optics, etc., can be taken from the same T-90MS. This is clearly safer than taking in a country that is at war. And again, all of the elements of these systems are produced in Russia.



Yeah right!

None of Oplots parts are produced in russia ... russian t-90s use ukrainian and belorussian sytems... even their t-90s exported to india are using supposedly foriegn system coz they failed in the thar desert.. its FCS got cooked... engine overheated .. etc etc


----------



## phantomrush

CHI RULES said:


> Dear Ukraine had expertise of manufacturing Tanks and several type of Radars/engines and same is case now but it does not mean their army should also be capable enough. Before Crimea/separatist crises they were having no threats to build credible Army. They have faced set backs as Russian special forces are operating there portraying as separatists.


Then Britain mistress of the seas, but now is a miserable, ridiculous fleet. And it's only been 50 years. Britain made great Spitfire, beautiful ATVs Land Rover. And what now? Laughter and only.

Everything changes. Ukraine successfully for 25 years one of the most industrialized countries of the world, come to poverty at the level of Ghana and Angola. On the industrial level the same.


----------



## imranyounus

CHI RULES said:


> Though they may look like same but have major differences.


That is my point if we can manage to produce a batter system on same structure then why we need to by from China. Externally the will look same only difference in AK and VT4 is the new ad on protection in front of main trunt. Which we can interegate on AK too and improve subsystems even get better ones so why need to import VT4


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## phantomrush

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Questionable armour? really?? as for old canon... never knew KBA-3 was an old canon taken from some other tank?
> 
> T-80UD have cast turrets of T-84.


yes. 


They do not produce the gun. It was cheaper to shoot them from old tanks and sell. Africans will not notice the difference. That's how they lost production guns. As for armor, there is already laid out photos with cracks in the armor of BTR-4.

I know that 6TD diesel. This development 5TD, which stood on the T-64B and hates all the tankers.

T-80UE it as an example upgrade to T-90S / A. It can be up to MS. It all depends on your desire)))


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## DESERT FIGHTER

*Pak Army T-80UDS

















*



phantomrush said:


> yes.
> 
> 
> *They do not produce the gun*. It was cheaper to shoot them from old tanks and sell. Africans will not notice the difference. That's how they lost production guns. As for armor, there is already laid out photos with cracks in the armor of BTR-4.



KBA-3 gun produced by Ukraine:






KMDB - 125 mm KBA3 tank gun





> I know that 6TD diesel. This development 5TD, which stood on the T-64B and hates all the tankers.



BS... T-80 used by soviets used gass guzzlin Turbine engines which were shit!

T-80UD uses a better engine AKA 6TD!

*T-80:*






*T-80UD with 84 Turret:*






T-80 itself was produced by Ukraine!




> T-80UE it as an example upgrade to T-90S / A. It can be up to MS. It all depends on your desire)))



Again nonsense... T-90 is a modified T-72 which incorporated tech from T-80 which was expensive for russians to produce and maintain!

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## phantomrush

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Again nonsense... T-90 is a modified T-72 which incorporated tech from T-80 which was expensive for russians to produce and maintain!


You seem very bad understand what the tanks in the USSR)
T-80 is a tank with GTE, where the engine is Unit Stake Unit Stake T-72/64
T-80 is really a very expensive car. And it is very fancy.
However, it is possible to move inwards as T-72 and T-64. It's just a struggle between the plants themselves.
T-90A is really a continuation of the idea of the T-72 with a piece of equipment T-80B / C. But T-90MS is already much further. There's a new gun, new sights, and so on.

You know how much modification of T-80 exists? There is a joke that there are no two identical T-80 

Roughly speaking: T-80 and its modifications expensive in every sense of the tanks that give small advantages for huge money.
T-72 simple and reliable machine capable of a bear all that wish nezdarovy mind designer.
T-64 originator of all, but with a huge list of problems that have been converted into the T-72 and T-80 in various ways.

If you wish, you can log in to the Russian forums, there is a description of all these tanks. But you have to spend a lot of time to understand that the difference between the T-72B in '82 and T-72B '89 / T 80UA T 80UE etc.


googltranslayte sorry)



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> BS... T-80 used by soviets used gass guzzlin Turbine engines which were shit!
> 
> T-80UD uses a better engine AKA 6TD!


5TD diesel for T-64. 6TD development 5TD
GTD 1250 very good engines, expensive but good.
T-80UD is the same as the T-80U, only with a diesel engine for a place 6TD GTD1250



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> KMDB - 125 mm KBA3 tank gun


They remove the gun from the old tanks. This is the same 2A46.
When we did the gun, but now, no.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

phantomrush said:


> You seem very bad understand what the tanks in the USSR)
> T-80 is a tank with GTE, where the engine is Unit Stake Unit Stake T-72/64
> T-80 is really a very expensive car. And it is very fancy.
> However, it is possible to move inwards as T-72 and T-64. It's just a struggle between the plants themselves.
> T-90A is really a continuation of the idea of the T-72 with a piece of equipment T-80B / C. But T-90MS is already much further. There's a new gun, new sights, and so on.
> 
> You know how much modification of T-80 exists? There is a joke that there are no two identical T-80
> 
> Roughly speaking: T-80 and its modifications expensive in every sense of the tanks that give small advantages for huge money.
> T-72 simple and reliable machine capable of a bear all that wish nezdarovy mind designer.
> T-64 originator of all, but with a huge list of problems that have been converted into the T-72 and T-80 in various ways.
> 
> If you wish, you can log in to the Russian forums, there is a description of all these tanks. But you have to spend a lot of time to understand that the difference between the T-72B in '82 and T-72B '89 / T 80UA T 80UE etc.
> 
> 
> googltranslayte sorry)
> 
> 
> 5TD diesel for T-64. 6TD development 5TD
> GTD 1250 very good engines, expensive but good.
> T-80UD is the same as the T-80U, only with a diesel engine for a place 6TD GTD1250
> 
> 
> They remove the gun from the old tanks. This is the same 2A46.
> When we did the gun, but now, no.


You make absolutely no sense...

KBA-3 isnt 2A46.

GTD 1250 or the SG-1000 were gas turbine engine with no benefits ... but were a burden.

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## Zarvan

phantomrush said:


> You seem very bad understand what the tanks in the USSR)
> T-80 is a tank with GTE, where the engine is Unit Stake Unit Stake T-72/64
> T-80 is really a very expensive car. And it is very fancy.
> However, it is possible to move inwards as T-72 and T-64. It's just a struggle between the plants themselves.
> T-90A is really a continuation of the idea of the T-72 with a piece of equipment T-80B / C. But T-90MS is already much further. There's a new gun, new sights, and so on.
> 
> You know how much modification of T-80 exists? There is a joke that there are no two identical T-80
> 
> Roughly speaking: T-80 and its modifications expensive in every sense of the tanks that give small advantages for huge money.
> T-72 simple and reliable machine capable of a bear all that wish nezdarovy mind designer.
> T-64 originator of all, but with a huge list of problems that have been converted into the T-72 and T-80 in various ways.
> 
> If you wish, you can log in to the Russian forums, there is a description of all these tanks. But you have to spend a lot of time to understand that the difference between the T-72B in '82 and T-72B '89 / T 80UA T 80UE etc.
> 
> 
> googltranslayte sorry)
> 
> 
> 5TD diesel for T-64. 6TD development 5TD
> GTD 1250 very good engines, expensive but good.
> T-80UD is the same as the T-80U, only with a diesel engine for a place 6TD GTD1250
> 
> 
> They remove the gun from the old tanks. This is the same 2A46.
> When we did the gun, but now, no.


T-90 MS is still way behind T-84 Oplot M


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## phantomrush

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> None of Oplots parts are produced in russia ... russian t-90s use ukrainian and belorussian sytems... even their t-90s exported to india are using supposedly foriegn system coz they failed in the thar desert.. its FCS got cooked... engine overheated .. etc etc


It is not true. Nothing Ukrainian present. In the tanks. Belarusian pine-sight because it is cheap, and one way to bind the Belarus because she is not rich in natural resources, so at least some benefit from them will be. This cooperation does not mean that Russia does not aim.
Approximately FSUE Novosibirsk Instrument Making Plant. They produce pine-U. It's exactly like saying that the United States does not do guns, because they have to Abrams gun Rheinmetall.
Moreover, it does not produce Ukraine optics. It collects its only component from Russia.



Zarvan said:


> T-90 MS is still way behind T-84 Oplot M


LOL.
This is because the Indians T-90 and it is not possible to recognize a religion?) You MBT3000 way is the same as the continuation of the T-72.

By the way, the tank biathlon remember? at what point was ZTZ-96?))) behind the T-72B. and the more the T-72B3 1140 hp engine.


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> You make absolutely no sense...
> 
> KBA-3 isnt 2A46.
> 
> GTD 1250 or the SG-1000 were gas turbine engine with no benefits ... but were a burden.


Why is that? Better than the T-80U tank Soviet tank crews did not know. It is thanks to GTD. T-80UD all decommissioned Russian, do not tell me why?) And T-80U even likely to continue to upgrade on the same level with the T-90A / 72B3.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

phantomrush said:


> It is not true. *Nothing Ukrainian present*.



Tank-design,gun,APS,transmission,FCS,sights,ERA,IBMS,RCWS,etc etc.. Ukraine isnt importing anything like russia.


> In the tanks. Belarusian pine-sight because it is cheap, and one way to bind the Belarus because she is not rich in natural resources, so at least some benefit from them will be. This cooperation does not mean that Russia does not aim.
> Approximately FSUE Novosibirsk Instrument Making Plant. They produce pine-U.



Than why go for cheap belarussian pine?? or even Catherine from France?.. those aims are yet to be fulfilled...
A Catherine for Russia: French IR for T-90 Tanks



> It's exactly like saying that the United States does not do guns, because they have to Abrams gun Rheinmetall.
> Moreover, it does not produce Ukraine optics. It collects its only component postupaeyuschih from Russia.



Abrams (and several other allied MBTs) were spun off from a joint US-German-British program to develop a common MBT! ... each partner nation responsible for developing specific portions of that tank

When that thing didnt go through.. those nation used technology that had already been developed in the joint program in their own MBTs ... hence you see commonalities...



phantomrush said:


> It is not true. Nothing Ukrainian present. In the tanks. Belarusian pine-sight because it is cheap, and one way to bind the Belarus because she is not rich in natural resources, so at least some benefit from them will be. This cooperation does not mean that Russia does not aim.
> Approximately FSUE Novosibirsk Instrument Making Plant. They produce pine-U. It's exactly like saying that the United States does not do guns, because they have to Abrams gun Rheinmetall.
> Moreover, it does not produce Ukraine optics. It collects its only component from Russia.
> 
> 
> LOL.
> This is because the Indians T-90 and it is not possible to recognize a religion?) You MBT3000 way is the same as the continuation of the T-72.
> 
> By the way, the tank biathlon remember? at what point was ZTZ-96?))) behind the T-72B. and the more the T-72B3 1140 hp engine.
> 
> Why is that? Better than the T-80U tank Soviet tank crews did not know. It is thanks to GTD. *T-80UD all decommissioned Russian, do not tell me why?)* And T-80U even likely to continue to upgrade on the same level with the T-90A / 72B3.



Russia didnt produce T-80UD... UD uses the turret,FCS,sights,gun,engine used in T-84 (Which again is a Ukranian project)!

Pak originally bought T-80s.. but russians banned Ukraine to sell them to Pak.. so Ukranians used T-84 project and its systems to deliver the tanks which became *T-80UD.

*
T-80 itself was produced by marshav plant in Ukraine which was back than part of USSR... T-80 itself was the most advanced tank in the russian inventory..
T-80 Standard Tank: The Soviet Army's Last Armored Champion by Steven J. Zaloga — Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

The gas turbine engine failed... the russians after the collapse of soviet union or even before that couldnt mass produce the T-80 in huge numbers to replace t-72s... what they did was use tech from T-80 .. to incorporate in T-72 ...which later became the T-90!


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## phantomrush

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Than why go for cheap belarussian pine?? or even Catherine from France?.. those aims are yet to be fulfilled...



because cheap and quality (sosnaU) and technology transfer (Catherine) Russia buys sights abroad and then bought a license for them. According to the mass of the sight behind the Soviet school. Including Ukraine. Russia bought the license and now she makes them. Ukraine has no investment in it does not. And from there to take the modern optics? You do not understand, there is devastation. Compare budget of Ukraine and Russia, where there are modern technologies?
They can not do the type of armored vehicle Iveco / Tiger. And it's when they have a war, they were able to do for the year 4 armored cars. See? so they bought ready armored Streit Group based Ford 550 and could not collect them at the Ukraine. Here's a basic example of the development of the industry.

*


DESERT FIGHTER said:



Russia didnt produce T-80UD... UD uses the turret,FCS,sights,gun,engine used in T-84 (Which again is a Ukranian project)!

Click to expand...


Объект 478Б* — основной танк *Т-80УД «Берёза»*. Принят на вооружение в 1987 году[21]. Дизельный двигатель 6ТД(1000 л.с.), зенитная пулемётная установка с дистанционным управлением; первые варианты оснащались навесной ДЗ, с 1988 года — встроенная ДЗ, как на Т-80У; боевая масса 46 т; к 1995 году все Т-80УД Российской армии выведены из эксплуатации.

Т-80 — Википедия


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

phantomrush said:


> because cheap and quality (sosnaU) and technology transfer (Catherine) Russia buys sights abroad and then bought a license for them. According to the mass of the sight behind the Soviet school. Including Ukraine. Russia bought the license and now she makes them. Ukraine has no investment in it does not. And from there to take the modern optics? You do not understand, there is devastation. Compare budget of Ukraine and Russia, where there are modern technologies?
> They can not do the type of armored vehicle Iveco / Tiger. And it's when they have a war, they were able to do for the year 4 armored cars. See? so they bought ready armored Streit Group based Ford 550 and could not collect them at the Ukraine. Here's a basic example of the development of the industry.
> 
> *
> 
> Объект 478Б* — основной танк *Т-80УД «Берёза»*. Принят на вооружение в 1987 году[21]. Дизельный двигатель 6ТД(1000 л.с.), зенитная пулемётная установка с дистанционным управлением; первые варианты оснащались навесной ДЗ, с 1988 года — встроенная ДЗ, как на Т-80У; боевая масса 46 т; к 1995 году все Т-80УД Российской армии выведены из эксплуатации.
> 
> Т-80 — Википедия



russia doesnt produce catherns under license... and i cant read russian.


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## phantomrush

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> T-80 itself was produced by marshav plant in Ukraine which was back than part of USSR... T-80 itself was the most advanced tank in the russian inventory..
> 
> The gas turbine engine failed... the russians after the collapse of soviet union or even before that couldnt mass produce the T-80 in huge numbers to replace t-72s... what they did was use tech from T-80 .. to incorporate in T-72 ...which later became the T-90!


WHAT ??????
Кировский завод

Here created the T-80! You really gone crazy or something ????
It Leningrad / St Peterburg, Russia!



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> russia doesnt produce catherns under license... and i cant read russian.



Object 478B - the main tank T-80UD "Birch". Adopted in 1987 [21]. 6TD diesel engine (1000 hp), anti-aircraft machine-gun system with remote control; the first versions were equipped with hinged DZ, 1988 - Integrated RS, on the T-80U; The combat weight of 46 tons; By 1995, all of the T-80UD Russian Army decommissioned.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

phantomrush said:


> WHAT ??????
> Кировский завод
> 
> Here created the T-80! You really gone crazy or something ????
> It Leningrad / St Peterburg, Russia!
> 
> 
> 
> Object 478B - the main tank T-80UD "Birch". Adopted in 1987 [21]. 6TD diesel engine (1000 hp), anti-aircraft machine-gun system with remote control; the first versions were equipped with hinged DZ, 1988 - Integrated RS, on the T-80U; The combat weight of 46 tons; By 1995, all of the T-80UD Russian Army decommissioned.


*T-80 was produced by Kharkiv *.. while* T-72 was produced by Uralvagonzavod !!*

T-80 info:
Main Battle Tank - T-80/T80U/T80UM/T-80UM1/T-80UM2

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## phantomrush

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> *T-80 was produced by Kharkiv *.. while* T-72 was produced by Uralvagonzavod !!*


This is complete nonsense!
April 16, 1968 adopted a joint resolution of the Central Committee of the CPSU and the USSR Council of Ministers on the establishment of a gas turbine tank. By this time in the name of CLRI V.Klimova we developed a good engine GTD-1000T 1,000 hp, and KB-3 Kirov Plant (chief designer N.Popov), based on a gas turbine version of the T-64A in 1970 performed in an experienced metal object 219. After several years of testing and dovodok 6 August 1976 war machine have adopted under the T-80. "Vosmidesyatki" the world's first serial tank with gas turbine engine (serial production of the tank M1 "Abrams" began in 1980).

t80leningrad.narod.ru/tank_t80_3.htm

KB-3 Kirov factory creators T-80!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-80
In 1966 the experimental Ob'yekt 288 rocket tank, powered by two aerial GTD-350 turbine engines with a combined power of 691 hp (515 kW), was first built. Trials indicated that twin propulsion was no better than the turbine engine which had been in development since 1968 at KB-3 of the Kirov Plant (LKZ) and at WNII Transmash. The tank from LKZ equipped with this turbine engine was designed by Nikolay Popov. It was constructed in 1969 and designated Ob'yekt 219 SP1. It was renamed the T-64T, and was powered by a GTD-1000T multi-fuel gas turbine engine producing up to 1,000 hp (746 kW). During the trials it became clear that the increased weight and dynamic characteristics required a complete redesign of the vehicle's caterpillar track system. The second prototype, designated Ob'yekt 219 SP2, received bigger drive sprockets and return rollers. The number of wheels was increased from five to six. The construction of the turret was altered to use the same compartment, 125 mm 2A46 tank gun, auto loader and placement of ammunition as the T-64A. Some additional equipment was scavenged from the T-64A. The LKZ plant built a series of prototypes based on Ob'yekt 219 SP2. After seven years of upgrades, the tank became the T-80.[15]

LKZ---- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirov_Plant

I will reveal to you a terrible secret at all, later, the T-80 did Omsktransmash! but the developer LKZ!


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## Blue Marlin

Tipu7 said:


> Lol..........
> Simple rule
> East is on right side, west is on left side.......
> Just consider Pakistan as mid point, not England........


thats how i see it anyway i live in the uk so thats my point of reference.


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## Super Falcon

T 80UD is very potent tank and best in on its own class i still think pakistan should not go ahead with opket all hands up but i agree we buy them TOT as we did with T80UD buy 250 of these tanks are enough dont go full production

In future tanks will get latest with armour sensors and can use anti aircraft missile to stop apaches etc


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## Andrei_bt

phantomrush said:


> yes.
> I know that 6TD diesel. This development 5TD, which stood on the T-64B and hates all the tankers.



Maybe who really use 6TD like it, it was hated only by those who use on their tanks still use modernized V-2 engine created for T-34 in Ukraine 70+ years ago.

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## phantomrush

Andrei_bt said:


> Maybe who really use 6TD like it, it was hated only by those who use on their tanks still use modernized V-2 engine created for T-34 in Ukraine 70+ years ago.


Then you just made a copy of FT-17 and Christie


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## Pakistanisage

waz said:


> Looks great, it's still being evaluated though right?
> *I feel we are better off going with the Turks* and Altay, which is turning out to be a beast.





*Do you think the Turks will give us ToT and allow us to produce 60% of the Tank indigenously ?*



cabatli_53 said:


> Bro, Being Heavier is the choice of brain team since they believe on benefits of heavier tanks compared with 45-50 tonnes equivalents. Israeli Merkava are also following similar ways on developments, since Each blocks of Merkava revealed with additional weight and Finally, They reached around 65 tonnes on MK-4 series(3-5 tonnes additional weight). It is more or less same weight of Altay. I think Heavier tanks will be better for Pakistan as long as They are not used on soft and highly mountainous grounds. IFV's equipped with heavier calbre guns/having less pressure effect under the pallets are more suitable for such mountainous regions.




Pakistan's battle will be with India and if you study terrain, almost half of the of our border involves marshes in the South and Rajasthan desert in the center. Even the terrain in the North ( Indian Punjab) is soft. This is the main reason why Pakistan Army prefers middleweight Tanks ( 45 to 55 tons ) over heavier weight tanks ( 55 to 65 tons ).

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## Zarvan

Pakistanisage said:


> *Do you think the Turks will give us ToT and allow us to produce 60% of the Tank indigenously ?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan's battle will be with India and if you study terrain, almost half of the of our border involves marshes in the South and Rajasthan desert in the center. Even the terrain in the North ( Indian Punjab) is soft. This is the main reason why Pakistan Army prefers middleweight Tanks ( 45 to 55 tons ) over heavier weight tanks ( 55 to 65 tons ).


They would give us 100%


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> They would give us 100%


Zarvan It would take plenty of $$$

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## Pakistanisage

Zarvan said:


> They would give us 100%




We have had ToT from Chinese MBT 2000 and with few modifications we produced Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid-I.

Now with ToT from Ukraine on Oplot-M, we will produce Super Al-Khalid.

With each infusion of Technology, Pakistan is becoming more competent in building Tanks.

We have experienced same growth and Knowledge With Submarines ToT ( Agosta-90 + upcoming Chinese Yuan subs ).

In the air we have come a long way by Joint Venture of JF Thunder ( and future JV's for Fighter aircrafts ).

I am convinced that the best deals for us are the ones where we get ToT and Joint Productions ( i.e. 60% to 75 % indigenous Production, etc. )

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## Zarvan

Pakistanisage said:


> We have had ToT from Chinese MBT 2000 and with few modifications we produced Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid-I.
> 
> Now with ToT from Ukraine on Oplot-M, we will produce Super Al-Khalid.
> 
> With each infusion of Technology, Pakistan is becoming more competent in building Tanks.
> 
> We have experienced some growth and Knowledge With Submarines ToT ( Agosta-90 + upcoming Chinese Yuan subs ).
> 
> In the air we have come a long way by Joint Venture of JF Thunder.
> 
> I am convinced that the best deals for us are the ones where we get ToT and Joint Productions ( i.e. 60% to 75 % indigenous Production, etc. )


AK2 is not OPLOT M that is different


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## Pakistanisage

Zarvan said:


> AK2 is not OPLOT M that is different




There is NO AK2. Chinese MBT-3000 was supposed to be AK-2 but since we have decided not to go with MBT 3000, AK-2 name will be dropped. We already have 500 Al-Khalids and AK-1's. We may produce 100 more of these since the original plan was to have 600 of these Tanks.

We will produce Oplot-M under license, with a different Pakistani Name ( Which won't be AK-2 ).


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## Zarvan

Pakistanisage said:


> There is NO AK2. Chinese MBT-3000 was supposed to be AK-2 but since we have decided not to go with MBT 3000, AK-2 name will be dropped. We already have 500 Al-Khalids and AK-1's. We may produce 100 more of these since the original plan was to have 600 of these Tanks.
> 
> We will produce Oplot-M under license, with a different Pakistani Name ( Which won't be AK-2 ).


Sir AK-2 is under development no Sir MBT-3000 was never supposes to be AK-2 it wasn't. T-84 Oplot M is different Tank and AK-2 is different.

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## waz

Pakistanisage said:


> *Do you think the Turks will give us ToT and allow us to produce 60% of the Tank indigenously ?*



Oh yes, I don't think there is any doubt of that. They offered similar for the Atak.

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## Pakistanisage

waz said:


> Oh yes, I don't think there is any doubt of that. They offered similar for the Atak.




Then the only other rationale for buying Oplot-M must be the PRICE.

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## Basel

Pakistanisage said:


> There is NO AK2. Chinese MBT-3000 was supposed to be AK-2 but since we have decided not to go with MBT 3000, AK-2 name will be dropped. We already have 500 Al-Khalids and AK-1's. We may produce 100 more of these since the original plan was to have 600 of these Tanks.
> 
> We will produce Oplot-M under license, with a different Pakistani Name ( Which won't be AK-2 ).



MBT-3000 was never meant to be AK-2, if inducted it would be called Al-Haider. It is what an armor core officer told me on net.

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## Super Falcon

I think oplot will be working fine in heat and cold weather and in desert

AL KHALID weakness is it cant swim in rivers effictively of croosing water hazards 

PA want a tan which perform the wsyer hazard task and work like a AK


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## HAIDER

These tank for Indian border. Few main factor before buy these tanks are , intense hot weather, fields and marshes, visibility poor in Punjab region in winter, lots of green fields. Second region , is dusty plains, where tank visibility is very high. Third and most intense is desert region, where tanks frequently break down,due to heat. Where Indian Arjun failed to perform, even with German engine. Pakistan army usually do lots of modification in tank, specially cooling system.Because these East European wheelers cooling system are not effective in our region. Can give one example, when few APC supplied from some eastern European company in Iraq ,where they frequently break down, after few months Iraqi govt paid extra amount to modified the cooling system, otherwise they were all piece of junk without heat and sand particles protection.

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## DJ Crudept

congrats Pakistan. OM is a nice tank. 

is Pakistan still buying Serbian T-55 junk ?

congrats Pakistan. OM is a nice tank. 

is Pakistan still buying Serbian T-55 junk ?


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## HAIDER

Get this from Russia.

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## Zarvan

HAIDER said:


> Get this from Russia.


This doesn't exist


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## Super Falcon

I think pak will ask for few cooling modification before buying any tank in our region heave tanks wont survive even after have good cooling system weapons etc
we need medium weight tank with goof weapons and protection


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## JPMM

In my opinion the main reason for Oplot-M is the ToT with upgrading the remaining fleet of T80UD to Oplot.M status. Usually Pak Army buy lots of araund 300-320 machines, enougth for equiping an Armoured Division (6 Armoured Regiments and 1 Armoured Recce Reg). So buying a new lot and ugrading the T80UD its TWO Armoured Divisions, equiping the 1st and reequiping the 6th. This last is on Al-Zarrar, so the new batch must go for the 1st, sending theirs T80UD to the factory, after that they will replace the Al-Zarrar, their destiny being the T59MII and T69IIMP Regiments.
Makes all sence!!!!!

AK & AK1 will remain in the South, the king off the Desert.

"Serbian T55 junk" going to be upgraded to Engineer Heavy APC.

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## Path-Finder

Something Interesting Do we still have those old M60 Pattons? KMDB is offering upgrades for them too.

KMDB - M60A3 Main Battle Tank Upgrade


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## Zarvan

JPMM said:


> In my opinion the main reason for Oplot-M is the ToT with upgrading the remaining fleet of T80UD to Oplot.M status. Usually Pak Army buy lots of araund 300-320 machines, enougth for equiping an Armoured Division (6 Armoured Regiments and 1 Armoured Recce Reg). So buying a new lot and ugrading the T80UD its TWO Armoured Divisions, equiping the 1st and reequiping the 6th. This last is on Al-Zarrar, so the new batch must go for the 1st, sending theirs T80UD to the factory, after that they will replace the Al-Zarrar, their destiny being the T59MII and T69IIMP Regiments.
> Makes all sence!!!!!
> 
> AK & AK1 will remain in the South, the king off the Desert.
> 
> "Serbian T55 junk" going to be upgraded to Engineer Heavy APC.


Serbian T-55 will not be turned into APC it would be given to Para Military mainly FC in Baluchistan

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## VelocuR

Pakistanisage said:


> *We have had ToT from Chinese MBT 2000 and with few modifications we produced Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid-I.
> 
> Now with ToT from Ukraine on Oplot-M, we will produce Super Al-Khalid.*
> 
> With each infusion of Technology, Pakistan is becoming more competent in building Tanks.
> 
> We have experienced same growth and Knowledge With Submarines ToT ( Agosta-90 + upcoming Chinese Yuan subs ).
> 
> In the air we have come a long way by Joint Venture of JF Thunder ( and future JV's for Fighter aircrafts ).
> 
> I am convinced that the best deals for us are the ones where we get ToT and Joint Productions ( i.e. 60% to 75 % indigenous Production, etc. )



We should do ToT with Turkey, that's better option for Pakistan instead Oplot-M. 

Can Pakistan eat grass for extra billion funds to be working together with Turkey?


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## Tipu7

VelocuR said:


> We should do ToT with Turkey, that's better option for Pakistan instead Oplot-M.
> 
> Can Pakistan eat grass for extra billion funds to be working together with Turkey?


Let Atlay go.......
It's half a decade away.......
What you want to do during this time??
And eating grass is for once, not ever......
We will get allay when time will be right, and money will be available...... right now? NO

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## Tipu7

@Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha 
Dear Seniors......
Plz inform us about remaining candidates of these trials??
Is Oplot finalized or just qualified for final after beating Mbt3000 in semi-finals??
If it's not classified then reveal it plz..... We are dying of curiosity.......

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## AsifIjaz

If Oplot M wins the next round of tests... (oh yes, there are more to come) then even we wont be getting the ones we are testing.. meaning structure wise same but systems and sub systems... nope, even now PA knows a few areas of improvement.
PA will bargain and discuss it to bare bone level. this will be our prime tank for 2 -3 more decades at least..


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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> @Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER @kaonalpha
> Dear Seniors......
> Plz inform us about remaining candidates of these trials??
> Is Oplot finalized or just qualified for final after beating Mbt3000 in semi-finals??
> If it's not classified then reveal it plz..... We are dying of curiosity.......


Also if T-84 M is selected than why other two Tanks are coming in December for tests ? @Dazzler @kaonalpha @DESERT FIGHTER


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## CHI RULES

Zarvan said:


> Serbian T-55 will not be turned into APC it would be given to Para Military mainly FC in Baluchistan


dear same shall be used in entire mountainous train of Pak in KPK, Balochistan other few places. T55 after upgrade will no be a junk however in mountainous train heavy MBTs shall prove to be junk.

pls compare price of Atlay with Oplots further I doubt that Turkey will provide us TOT.


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## Andrei_bt

Oplot withot armor of commander sight -

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## Zarvan

CHI RULES said:


> dear same shall be used in entire mountainous train of Pak in KPK, Balochistan other few places. T55 after upgrade will no be a junk however in mountainous train heavy MBTs shall prove to be junk.
> 
> pls compare price of Atlay with Oplots further I doubt that Turkey will provide us TOT.


Turkey without any doubt will provide us TOT. The question is only if Altay suits our terrain.


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## Tipu7

Andrei_bt said:


> Oplot withot armor of commander sight -


Can you elaborate its APS?
Also why Oplot has such a huge commander site? Isn't it weak point? Can easily be targeted by simple rpg......


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Also if T-84 M is selected than why other two Tanks are coming in December for tests ? @Dazzler @kaonalpha @DESERT FIGHTER



sorry which other two tanks are coming for trials?


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## CHI RULES

Zarvan said:


> Turkey without any doubt will provide us TOT. The question is only if Altay suits our terrain.


Sorry but facts show that any country whether Muslim or not don't provide TOT without any economic/defense related benefits. Brotherly social ties at level of general public are totally different from considering international relations which are without moralities.
Though it is possible that just like French Turkey may supply some components or even may sell few MBTs in future but I doubt that they shall provide us TOT of Atlay. We may think about TOT after Turkey goes for mass production and exports them in considerable numbers. Turkish defense equipment though of high quality yet expensive. Being a Nato member Turkey may not provide sophisticated techs to Pak even if they like.

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## Pakistanisage

Audio said:


> I will be very surprised if this will materialize.
> Politics and all....not only do Chinese "expect" you to buy theirs, *the Russians might have a word or two*, commenting on Pakistan buying from Ukraine. SCO membership means some concessions will have to be made. Probably.
> 
> Tank looks good though, like the rugged look of it.





I don't know what Planet you have been living on for the past 18 to 20 years Rip Van Winkle.

*NEWSFLASH :*

Russia has no say in this matter.

Have you not heard ? Russia and Ukraine are at WAR, Buddy.

*Ukraine does not give a RAT$ A$$ what Russia thinks. Has NOT cared since 1997.

Oplot-M is a 100% Ukrainian Product*


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## ACE OF THE AIR

CHI RULES said:


> Sorry but facts show that any country whether Muslim or not don't provide TOT without any economic/defense related benefits. Brotherly social ties at level of general public are totally different from considering international relations which are without moralities.
> Though it is possible that just like French Turkey may supply some components or even may sell few MBTs in future but I doubt that they shall provide us TOT of Atlay. We may think about TOT after Turkey goes for mass production and exports them in considerable numbers. Turkish defense equipment though of high quality yet expensive. Being a Nato member Turkey may not provide sophisticated techs to Pak even if they like.


The issue with Altay is not ToT of the tank but the Japanese Engine. Secondly the tank itself is not mature but it had a lot of potential.



Pakistanisage said:


> I don't know what Planet you have been living on for the past 18 to 20 years Rip Van Winkle.
> 
> *NEWSFLASH :*
> 
> Russia has no say in this matter.
> 
> Have you not heard ? Russia and Ukraine are at WAR, Buddy.
> 
> *Ukraine does not give a RAT$ A$$ what Russia thinks. Has NOT cared since 1997.
> 
> Oplot-M is a 100% Ukrainian Product*



If I may add Russia might be interested it OPLOT-M operational qualities and its weakness and they might be able to get that though Pakistan. But this is being a


----------



## Pakistanisage

Armstrong said:


> Welcome to the forum !
> 
> I suppose its surprising to see an *Italian *here on a Pakistani forum !




Armstrong Bhai, just because someone is waving an ITALIAN FLAG on PDF does not mean he is Italian.

He could be a Baniya from Gujrat who likes to pretend to be an Eye_Talian..

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## Sulman Badshah

instead of buying oplot M 

we should buy Topol M


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## Pakistanisage

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The issue with Altay is not ToT of the tank but the Japanese Engine. Secondly the tank itself is not mature but it had a lot of potential.
> 
> 
> 
> If I may add Russia might be interested it OPLOT-M operational qualities and its weakness and they might be able to get that though Pakistan. But this is being a




Today's Russia is not the Russia of 20 years ago. Infact, today's Russia is very supportive of Pakistan and is selling all kind of weapons and engines to Pakistan over vociferous objections by India. When Pakistan started JF-17 Thunder project with China using RD93 and India asked Russia to block the sale of RD93 to Pakistan, Russia practically gave India the Middle Finger and told them to go to hell. India has a hard time accepting that reality.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Pakistanisage said:


> Today's Russia is not the Russia of 20 years ago. Infact, today's Russia is very supportive of Pakistan and is selling all kind of weapons and engines to Pakistan over vociferous objections by India. When Pakistan started JF-17 Thunder project with China using RD93 and India asked Russia to block the sale of RD93 to Pakistan, Russia practically gave India the Middle Finger and told them to go to hell. India has a hard time accepting that reality.


Very true...The difference is the finger is now growing in size...

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## Zarvan

CHI RULES said:


> Sorry but facts show that any country whether Muslim or not don't provide TOT without any economic/defense related benefits. Brotherly social ties at level of general public are totally different from considering international relations which are without moralities.
> Though it is possible that just like French Turkey may supply some components or even may sell few MBTs in future but I doubt that they shall provide us TOT of Atlay. We may think about TOT after Turkey goes for mass production and exports them in considerable numbers. Turkish defense equipment though of high quality yet expensive. Being a Nato member Turkey may not provide sophisticated techs to Pak even if they like.


They will provide TOT without any doubt but Altay is way to heavy that is only major issue. Getting TOT from Turkey is not a issue at all.



Sulman Badshah said:


> instead of buying oplot M
> 
> we should buy Topol M


What is that ?


----------



## Pakistanisage

Zarvan said:


> They will provide TOT without any doubt but Altay is way to heavy that is only major issue. Getting TOT from Turkey is not a issue at all.
> 
> 
> What is that ?



Topol M is an ICBM.


BTW, Zarvan OPLOT M suits us for so many reasons.

First of the price is better

Secondly we will produce 60% of the Tank with Complete ToT.

Thirdly the tank has the same family of Engine we have been using for last 20 years.
i.e 6TD-1 for T80UD, 6TD-2 for Al Khalid and 6TD-3 for Oplot-M

Plus we have good reliable time tested relationship with Ukraine.

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## Zarvan

Pakistanisage said:


> Topol M is an ICBM.


I am all for it but no country sells ICBM


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## Pakistanisage

Zarvan said:


> I am all for it but no country sells ICBM




Zarvan Bhai, Badshah Bhai Mazaq ker raha tha.

Wo Oplot-M ka Qafiya mila raha tha TOPOL-M se

They are two separate things.

Eik Tank hai doosra ICBM Missile hai.

Aap ko Mazaq sumj nehi aaya.

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## Zarvan

Pakistanisage said:


> Zarvan Bhai, Badshah Bhai Mazaq ker raha tha.
> 
> Wo Oplot-M ka Qafiya mila raha tha TOPOL-M se
> 
> They are two separate things.
> 
> Eik Tank hai doosra ICBM Missile hai.
> 
> Aap ko Mazaq sumj nehi aaya.


I know that you were being obviously they are two different things


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> What is that ?


Russian famous ICBM ..


----------



## CHI RULES

Zarvan said:


> They will provide TOT without any doubt but Altay is way to heavy that is only major issue. Getting TOT from Turkey is not a issue at all.
> 
> 
> What is that ?


Ok I am also clear and hope that u and I remain on this forum till 2025 let see what happens till that time. But I am sure Pak shall not get TOT of Atlay.


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## Zarvan

CHI RULES said:


> Ok I am also clear and hope that u and I remain on this forum till 2025 let see what happens till that time. But I am sure Pak shall not get TOT of Atlay.


Pak will get TOT of Turkey your post just shows your ignorance about Pakistan and Turkey relations. Every weapon we are getting from Turkey is coming with TOT. Still Pakistan would never choose Altay. Altay is way too heavy Tank for us.

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## FunkyGen

CHI RULES said:


> Ok I am also clear and hope that u and I remain on this forum till 2025 let see what happens till that time. But I am sure Pak shall not get TOT of Atlay.


Altay components*
Btw turks are good partners, why do you think we will not get any TOT?


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## Path-Finder

I was looking at this page and thought weather OPLOT-M could get Selex-ES upgrades for this tank? As COAS is in Italy!







Request Rejected


----------



## Quwa

One possible reason why Pakistan might be warm towards the Oplot M might be precisely because Ukraine is in a precarious situation. Kiev needs money and Pakistan has been one of its biggest importers of arms and heavy machinery. It's possible that Ukraine is actually thinning their margins a little bit (I.E. discounting the price of systems) for Pakistan.


----------



## Armstrong

Mark Sien said:


> One possible reason why Pakistan might be warm towards the Oplot M might be precisely because Ukraine is in a precarious situation. Kiev needs money and Pakistan has been one of its biggest importers of arms and heavy machinery. It's possible that Ukraine is actually thinning their margins a little bit (I.E. discounting the price of systems) for Pakistan.



We could possibly be ripping off the Ukrainians when they're in a tight situation ?  

I don't like the thought of that happening !


----------



## Quwa

Armstrong said:


> We could possibly be ripping off the Ukrainians when they're in a tight situation ?
> 
> I don't like the thought of that happening !


I think Ukraine's understanding of being "ripped off" is equivalent to Russia taking their territory, not a buyer looking for a good deal.

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## kaonalpha

SURE why not lets put an aesa radar on it like the T-14 armata !!!!!!!



Path-Finder said:


> I was looking at this page and thought weather OPLOT-M could get Selex-ES upgrades for this tank? As COAS is in Italy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Request Rejected

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## Path-Finder

kaonalpha said:


> SURE why not lets put an aesa radar on it like the T-14 armata !!!!!!!



you didn't click on the link.
(Request Rejected

Request Rejected

why does link keep saying request rejected for?


----------



## kaonalpha

Path-Finder said:


> you didn't click on the link.
> (Request Rejected
> 
> Request Rejected
> 
> why does link keep saying request rejected for?


Either way It costs $$$$$


----------



## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> Pak will get TOT of Turkey your post just shows your ignorance about Pakistan and Turkey relations. Every weapon we are getting from Turkey is coming with TOT. Still Pakistan would never choose Altay. Altay is way too heavy Tank for us.


@Zarvan you have good mind there. get the altay tank with tot. best idea ever. but it cost $1billion for 250 tanks though

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## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> View attachment 242012
> 
> @Zarvan you have good mind there. get the altay tank with tot. best idea ever. but it cost $1billion for 250 tanks though


I know even if we had the money still we will not go for Altay. Altay is way to heavy for us. Our terrain is not suitable with Altay.


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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> I know even if we had the money still we will not go for Altay. Altay is way to heavy for us. Our terrain is not suitable with Altay.


true european and american tanks are notoriously heavy. our challenger 2 tanks are no different they are heavy.

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## Path-Finder

blue marlin said:


> true european and american tanks are notoriously heavy. our challenger 2 tanks are no different they are heavy.
> View attachment 242022
> View attachment 242023



few months back I was driving on A34 north and a Challenger Tank was being transported with a army convoy. The Challenger is a BEAST a massive tank!


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## Neptune

blue marlin said:


> View attachment 242012
> 
> @Zarvan you have good mind there. get the altay tank with tot. best idea ever. but it cost $1billion for 250 tanks though



AFAIK cost per unit is $5,5-$6 million.

Latest prototype for mass production (without the AKKOR self protection system and the Aselsan's TASMUS 'Tactical Area Communications System'

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## Folkhindusnsikhs

With regards to military- procurements, it is a good idea to diversify, hence Oplot M may prove to be indispensable one day. Furthermore, establishing/maintaining a rapport of sorts, with some European countries, would make for a shrewd/astute decision for Pakistan.


----------



## Andrei_bt

Path-Finder said:


> I was looking at this page and thought weather OPLOT-M could get Selex-ES upgrades for this tank? As COAS is in Italy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Request Rejected




they do have such upgrade -





But now it is Ukrainian made panoramic sight availible with better stats...



Tipu7 said:


> Can you elaborate its APS?
> Also why Oplot has such a huge commander site? Isn't it weak point? Can easily be targeted by simple rpg......



it is the same as on western MBT, notice that it has massive protective cover. On thet photo it is without it.
The size is dictated by +60 degree elevation of the FOV alloving it to be used as anti aircraft (or against mountain targets), or targets which are at hight, building roof for example.



Tipu7 said:


> Can easily be targeted by simple rpg......



it looks big cause the tank is much smaller comparing to western tanks like Abrams and so on.

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## Path-Finder

Andrei_bt said:


> they do have such upgrade -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But now it is Ukrainian made panoramic sight availible with better stats...
> 
> 
> 
> it is the same as on western MBT, notice that it has massive protective cover. On thet photo it is without it.
> The size is dictated by +60 degree elevation of the FOV alloving it to be used as anti aircraft (or against mountain targets), or targets which are at hight, building roof for example.
> 
> 
> 
> it looks big cause the tank is much smaller comparing to western tanks like Abrams and so on.



thanks for confirming that SalexES offer upgrades as well. Weather we go for them or not is unknown.


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## Blue Marlin

Path-Finder said:


> few months back I was driving on A34 north and a Challenger Tank was being transported with a army convoy. The Challenger is a BEAST a massive tank!


where abouts is that ? im in the north west


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## Mughal-Prince

kaonalpha said:


> SURE why not lets put an aesa radar on it like the T-14 armata !!!!!!!



 AESA ??? you sure it has an AESA ?
Can you elaborate a little what useful an AESA might be on a tank, Thanks.


----------



## kaonalpha

Mughal-Prince said:


> AESA ??? you sure it has an AESA ?
> Can you elaborate a little what useful an AESA might be on a tank, Thanks.


According to preliminary reports, the new tank designated T-14 will be less radical and ambitious than the canceled ‘Object 195’ or T-95. It will weigh less, therefore being more agile and more affordable when compared to its more ambitious predecessors. Additionally, the T-15, Kurganets-25 IFV and Bumerang IFV will be able to equip the same 30mm Epoch Remote Control Turret.[7]

The tank will have an unmanned, remotely controlled turret. It will be digitally controlled by a crew-member located in a separate compartment. It is believed that this would eventually lead to the development of a fully robotic tank.[25]

Vehicles of the Armata platform will be equipped with the radar and other technologies found on the Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation jet fighter. They include a Ka band radar (26.5–40 GHz) based on AESA radar. The devices should be ready by 2015.[26]



kaonalpha said:


> According to preliminary reports, the new tank designated T-14 will be less radical and ambitious than the canceled ‘Object 195’ or T-95. It will weigh less, therefore being more agile and more affordable when compared to its more ambitious predecessors.
> 
> Vehicles of the Armata platform will be equipped with the radar and other technologies found on the Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation jet fighter. They include a Ka band radar (26.5–40 GHz) based on AESA radar. The devices should be ready by 2015.[26]


_Defense Update_ released their analysis of the tank, where they speculate that _Afghanit_ main sensors are the four panels mounted on a turret's sides, which are probably the AESA radar panes spread out for the 360° view, and possible one more on top of the turret.[37] In their opinion, the active part of the system it consists of both a hard kill and a soft kill elements, first of which actively destroys the incoming projectile (such as a dumb rocket or artillery shell), while the second confuses the guidance mechanism of ATGMs and such, causing it to lose the target lock. They believe that it would be effective against most modern ATGMs, including Hellfire, TOW, Javelin, Spike, Brimstone, JAGM, etc.[37]

_Afghanit_ hard-kill launchers are the long tubes mounted in groups of five between the turret's front sides and the chassis.[14] These send out an electronically activated charge that shoots an Explosively Formed Penetrator towards the target (in all directions).[38] Aside from that, the tank is also equipped by the NII Stali's Upper Hemisphere Protection Complex,[39] which consists of two steerable cartridges with 12 smaller charges each, and a turret-top VLS with two more similar cartridges.[40] It probably corresponds to the _Defense Update_ soft-kill system.[37] Additionally, using AESA radar and anti-aircraft machine gun it is possible to destroy incoming missiles and slow-flying shells (except hypersonic kinetic energy penetrators).[41]

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## Blue Marlin

Neptune said:


> AFAIK cost per unit is $5,5-$6 million.
> 
> Latest prototype for mass production (without the AKKOR self protection system and the Aselsan's TASMUS 'Tactical Area Communications System'


turkey is buying 1000 of these and they are buying them in blocks of 4 250 per block and $1billion per block works out at 4 million each but then you have optional extras i suppose. 5-6 million is sort of the mid/high end price one would pay for a tank.

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## Path-Finder

blue marlin said:


> where abouts is that ? im in the north west


well if you are traveling from Hampshire/south coast to North then you join A34 near Winchester to Oxford you see Army convoys on this road quite often!


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## Blue Marlin

Path-Finder said:


> well if you are traveling from Hampshire/south coast to North then you join A34 near Winchester to Oxford you see Army convoys on this road quite often!


no, furthest ive been down south is london where i study. they make the eurofighter typhoon not to far from where my parents live. and they make nuclear subs about 2/3 hours away from there


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## Path-Finder

blue marlin said:


> no, furthest ive been down south is london where i study. they make the eurofighter typhoon not to far from where my parents live. and they make nuclear subs about 2/3 hours away from there



I have never been further north than Bradford/Leeds. you appear to be further north.


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## Mughal-Prince

Sulman Badshah said:


> instead of buying oplot M
> 
> we should buy Topol M



Tum mazaq ker rahay ho ya aaj dawaye nahin khaye 





Pakistanisage said:


> Zarvan Bhai, Badshah Bhai Mazaq ker raha tha.
> 
> Wo Oplot-M ka Qafiya mila raha tha TOPOL-M se
> 
> They are two separate things.
> 
> Eik Tank hai doosra ICBM Missile hai.
> 
> Aap ko Mazaq sumj nehi aaya.



Nahin zaravan ko Topol-M samajh nahin aaya  warna woh bhi wohi kehta jo main nay quote kya hai 

Pata hai yaar qafiya mila raha hai salman


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## Sulman Badshah

Mughal-Prince said:


> Tum mazaq ker rahay ho ya aaj dawaye nahin khaye


Our enemy will be like


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## Blue Marlin

Path-Finder said:


> I have never been further north than Bradford/Leeds. you appear to be further north.


thats north east, i live in the north west in Lancashire


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## CHI RULES

Zarvan said:


> Pak will get TOT of Turkey your post just shows your ignorance about Pakistan and Turkey relations. Every weapon we are getting from Turkey is coming with TOT. Still Pakistan would never choose Altay. Altay is way too heavy Tank for us.


Dear Yes I am ignorant about ur qualification/whereabouts but I know at least some arms of PA since childhood, so please don't negate every thing which others say. U are ur self confirming that Atlay is too heavy, but when I say we will not get this MBT TOT for next ten years you are considering me ignorant. 
Muslim brother hood is one thing and Army requirements are other. I believe u are not a soldier just like me so please abstain from giving decisions abt others.


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## Andrei_bt

kaonalpha said:


> According to preliminary reports, the new tank designated T-14 will be less radical and ambitious than the canceled ‘Object 195’ or T-95.



actually there are a lot to offer for future from Ukraine, they made their "armata" decades ago -

(called device 490A)

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## kaonalpha

Andrei_bt said:


> actually there are a lot to offer for future from Ukraine, they made their "armata" decades ago -
> 
> (called device 490A)


impressive is this project on hold or scrapped ? PLUS MORE DETAIL ON THIS 490A


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## Andrei_bt

> Vehicles of the Armata platform will be equipped with the radar and other technologies found on the Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation jet fighter.




Maybe any rational man can understand that tank can not be equiped with "radar and other technologies found on the Sukhoi T-50"...



> turkey is buying 1000



Thanks, is there any official facts to support this?


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## kaonalpha

Andrei_bt said:


> Maybe any rational man can understand that tank can not be equiped with "radar and other technologies found on the Sukhoi T-50"...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, is there any official facts to support this?


can you please give the details .

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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> Pak will get TOT of Turkey your post just shows your ignorance about Pakistan and Turkey relations. *Every weapon we are getting from Turkey is coming with TOT*. Still Pakistan would never choose Altay. Altay is way too heavy Tank for us.



That is true. Whenever brothers requested ToT, It is given to the hands of them. I see It is the same When Turkey requested technology from friendly countries as well. Past examples introduce that It will be similar in following procurement projects. As far as I know, The latest ToT deal was software defined radio technology. Software defined radioes are known as critical and difficult to develop but Pakistan institutes are producing them on their own at present. It is made similar for T155 Panter howitzers, fleet tanker project, Nurol armoured vehicle production projects as well. In additions, Pakistan is the rare country (along with S. Korea) which is using Turkish artillery training center and Electronic warfare&training range software and simulation systems which is adopted to Pakistani arsenals thanks to common efforts of Turk&Pakistani engineers.

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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> That is true. Whenever brothers requested ToT, It is given to the hands of them. I see It is the same When Turkey requested technology from friendly countries as well. Past examples introduce that It will be similar in following procurement projects. As far as I know, The latest ToT deal was software defined radio technology. Software defined radioes are known as critical and difficult to develop but Pakistan institutes are producing them on their own at present. It is made similar for T155 Panter howitzers, fleet tanker project, Nurol armoured vehicle production projects as well. In additions, Pakistan is the rare country (along with S. Korea) which is using Turkish artillery training center and Electronic warfare&training range software and simulation systems which is adopted to Pakistani arsenals thanks to common efforts of Turk&Pakistani engineers.


I think your Armored Vechiles are better I think we need to buy MRAP and APC and IFV from you Turkey. By the way has Kaplan 20 and Tulpur IFVs entered mass production


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## Blue Marlin

cabatli_53 said:


> That is true. Whenever brothers requested ToT, It is given to the hands of them. I see It is the same When Turkey requested technology from friendly countries as well. Past examples introduce that It will be similar in following procurement projects. As far as I know, The latest ToT deal was software defined radio technology. Software defined radioes are known as critical and difficult to develop but Pakistan institutes are producing them on their own at present. It is made similar for T155 Panter howitzers, fleet tanker project, Nurol armoured vehicle production projects as well. In additions, Pakistan is the rare country (along with S. Korea) which is using Turkish artillery training center and Electronic warfare&training range software and simulation systems which is adopted to Pakistani arsenals thanks to common efforts of Turk&Pakistani engineers.


but turkey has one problem. and its a big one. and its called china. when ever a country like turkey gives pakistans an excellent offer example good finance terms and tot, Pakistan is interested. and so is china, then they cut you out and give an offer to good to be refused. hence cutting out turkey. sure some projects slipped through the net the t155 howitzers got through.

my personal favourites that Pakistan should have sticked with, the t129.
the t129 is an excellent helicopter and one that will annoy pakistans adversaries mainly to the east (no names mentioned). the engine licence agreement did kill it, but turkey is procuring a licence to export the engines. and Pakistan should grab the opportunity and take and stretch it. but china has plans too the z10 may and most possibly will be made in Pakistan with tot. and will come string free as they usually do.

i dont know this, maybe someone can answer this, but is the t129 100% turkish? (except for the engines) if so then ditch the z10 can get the t129

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## Super Falcon

Well in both cases Army take its time to decide which will be army armour front line beast


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## princefaisal

blue marlin said:


> my personal favourites that Pakistan should have sticked with, the t129.
> the t129 is an excellent helicopter and one that will annoy pakistans adversaries mainly to the east (no names mentioned). the engine licence agreement did kill it, but turkey is procuring a licence to export the engines. and Pakistan should grab the opportunity and take and stretch it. but china has plans too the z10 may and most possibly will be made in Pakistan with tot. and will come string free as they usually do.
> 
> i dont know this, maybe someone can answer this, but is the t129 100% turkish? (except for the engines) if so then ditch the z10 can get the t129
> View attachment 242078
> View attachment 242079


Without getting US NOC about sale of engines to Pakistan, T129 cannot be procured. However Turkey can get WZ-16 turboshaft engines from China & then sell T-129 to Pakistan


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## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> but turkey has one problem. and its a big one. and its called china. when ever a country like turkey gives pakistans an excellent offer example good finance terms and tot, Pakistan is interested. and so is china, then they cut you out and give an offer to good to be refused. hence cutting out turkey. sure some projects slipped through the net the t155 howitzers got through.
> 
> my personal favourites that Pakistan should have sticked with, the t129.
> the t129 is an excellent helicopter and one that will annoy pakistans adversaries mainly to the east (no names mentioned). the engine licence agreement did kill it, but turkey is procuring a licence to export the engines. and Pakistan should grab the opportunity and take and stretch it. but china has plans too the z10 may and most possibly will be made in Pakistan with tot. and will come string free as they usually do.
> 
> i dont know this, maybe someone can answer this, but is the t129 100% turkish? (except for the engines) if so then ditch the z10 can get the t129
> View attachment 242078
> View attachment 242079


The problem is not China the problem is USA. T-129 despite being a great platform has one major issue that Turkey doesn't build its engine and we can't take the risk that what if USA doesn't supply us engine after few years. So if Turkey soon starts producing the engine on its own we would for sure go for this helicopter.
@cabatli_53


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## Path-Finder

princefaisal said:


> Without getting US NOC about sale of engines to Pakistan, T129 cannot be procured. However Turkey can get WZ-16 turboshaft engines from China & then sell T-129 to Pakistan



Will that work? can WZ-16 turboshaft engines be planted in T-129?


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## al_asad_al_mulk

We are calling our Al Khalid 1 & 2 super duper Tank then why we are purchasing T-84 oplot M.


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## Zarvan

al_asad_al_mulk said:


> We are calling our Al Khalid 1 & 2 super duper Tank then why we are purchasing T-84 oplot M.


T-84 Oplot M will replace our older Tanks like T-69 and T-85 and AK 2 will be our MBT specially for Desert Area.


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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> The problem is not China the problem is USA. T-129 despite being a great platform has one major issue that Turkey doesn't build its engine and we can't take the risk that what if USA doesn't supply us engine after few years. So if Turkey soon starts producing the engine on its own we would for sure go for this helicopter.
> @cabatli_53



The problem is not about engine. There is not any single official statements about it, but just gossips. Besides, Turkiye selected same engine for Turkish utility helicopter project. Those projects are commenced to meet the requirements of not only Turkey, but also ally armies so Export opportunities are being considered at the beggining of those projects. Engine selections are also done with considering all those factors. If USA put some restrictions for LHTEC engine, Turkish officials would not select same engine for another strategic helicopter project.

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## Blue Marlin

princefaisal said:


> Without getting US NOC about sale of engines to Pakistan, T129 cannot be procured. However Turkey can get WZ-16 turboshaft engines from China & then sell T-129 to Pakistan


i was just thing of that as the Us engines produce 1361hp while the wz-16 engines produce 1300hp I'm sure an upgrade will get it up to power but i think the American engines will be more efficient . so the mrt390 is the best option for you guys, as it more powerful than the two at 1465hp and it fits on the european tiger which is extremely similar to the t129



Path-Finder said:


> Will that work? can WZ-16 turboshaft engines be planted in T-129?


read my latest post you to @Zarvan


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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> The problem is not about engine. There is not any single official statements about it, but just gossips. Besides, Turkiye selected same engine for Turkish utility helicopter project. Those projects are commenced to meet the requirements of not only Turkey, but also ally armies so Export opportunities are being considered at the beggining of those projects. Engine selections are also done with considering all those factors. If USA put some restrictions for LHTEC engine, Turkish officials would not select same engine for another strategic helicopter project.


Sir our issue is engine we have bad history with USA they have on every crucial occasion stopped weapon supplies so we won't take the risk any more .


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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> Sir our issue is engine we have bad history with USA they have on every crucial occasion stopped weapon supplies so we won't take the risk any more .



Those embargo like statements are just being talked among members in forums. What I see from outside is that Pakistan procurement officials keep ordering Western products from Italy, USA, France and others, even looking for AH-1Z in same tender. You can see many examples in your inventory. Nothing special for Turkish platform using USA engine. There is not any obstacle for Russia to cut supplies for their Mi series helicopters Pakistan plans to order...

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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> Those embargo like statements are just being talked among members in forums. What I see from outside is that Pakistan procurement officials keep ordering Western products from Italy, USA, France and others. You can see many examples in your inventory. Nothing special for Turkish platform using USA engine.


No Sir USA is crucial here we haven't any problem with these countries in times of war but USA they did stabbed on our back many times in wars. Engine are most crucial part in any of the machine we won't take that risk.


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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> No Sir USA is crucial here we haven't any problem with these countries in times of war but USA they did stabbed on our back many times in wars. Engine are most crucial part in any of the machine we won't take that risk.



I fall into love to that situation when some members start talking as If a defence minister, especially in conditions While related country keeps ordering Western products from various countries.  Thanks bro. Message received !

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## Path-Finder

blue marlin said:


> read my latest post you to @Zarvan



#605?



cabatli_53 said:


> Those embargo like statements are just being talked among members in forums. What I see from outside is that Pakistan procurement officials keep ordering Western products from Italy, USA, France and others, even looking for AH-1Z in same tender. You can see many examples in your inventory. Nothing special for Turkish platform using USA engine. There is not any obstacle for Russia to cut supplies for their Mi series helicopters Pakistan plans to order...



Valid point! we did order ah-1z and more f16's are apparently coming. You guys dont give kickbacks to our greedy politicians maybe


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## princefaisal

blue marlin said:


> i was just thing of that as the Us engines produce 1361hp while the wz-16 engines produce 1300hp I'm sure an upgrade will get it up to power but i think the American engines will be more efficient . so the mrt390 is the best option for you guys, as it more powerful than the two at 1465hp and it fits on the european tiger which is extremely similar to the t129
> 
> 
> read my latest post you to @Zarvan



Check the globalsecurity site which shows that WZ-16 engine has the power of more than 1800 hp while indian defencereview site shows its power as 2000 hp.


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## Blue Marlin

Path-Finder said:


> #605?
> 
> 
> 
> Valid point! we did order ah-1z and more f16's are apparently coming. You guys dont give kickbacks to our greedy politicians maybe


T-84 oplot M the new war horse of Pakistan ? | Page 41


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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> I fall into love to that situation when some members start talking as If a defence minister, especially in conditions While related country keeps ordering Western products from various countries.  Thanks bro. Message received !


Sir understand the difference between USA and west I said we have problem with USA engine because USA previously in wars stopped supplying us weapons. Sir on the other hand many western countries have sold us weapons without creating any fuss or putting strict conditions.


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## Blue Marlin

blue marlin said:


> T-84 oplot M the new war horse of Pakistan ? | Page 41


congress makes all of the decisions, they want Pakistan to fight isis. if Pakistan listened (which they didnt and i hope to not listen ) then things would be different. but challenges are good . the mrt390 is your best option a bit of english , french and german, is good



Zarvan said:


> Sir understand the difference between USA and west I said we have problem with USA engine because USA previously in wars stopped supplying us weapons. Sir on the other hand many western countries have sold us weapons without creating any fuss or putting strict conditions.


you have a valid point point there.


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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> Sir understand the difference between USA and west I said we have problem with USA engine because USA previously in wars stopped supplying us weapons. Sir on the other hand many western countries have sold us weapons without creating any fuss or putting strict conditions.




If you have a serious concern regarding a likely arm embargo for any weapon, You should declare min %80-90 self sufficiency to supply your tools based on your own industrial infrastructure. Otherwise, Noone can guarantee that Russia or France or Italy or Germany, even China wouldn't put some strict conditions. Today's Germany issue serious restrictions to Turkey. Frence sell turbojet motors to Turkey based on numerical restrictions. USA block many weapon sales to Turkey even in today. What I mean, A likely embargo or restrictions just depends on political wishes and approaches of countries among eacothers. Take a look a country like Russia can't take delivery of their paid LHD from France so Seperating countries into categories to classify one as "Not to anything", While keep ordering strategic assets like AEW&C, fighter, missiles, UAV's from very similar source having deep and tied political and economicaş connections/relations with USA doesn't make any sense.

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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> If you have a serious concern regarding a likely arm embargo for any weapon, You should declare min %80-90 self sufficiency to supply your tools based on your own industrial infrastructure. Otherwise, Noone can guarantee that Russia or France or Italy or Germany, even China wouldn't put some strict conditions. Today's Germany issue serious restrictions to Turkey. Frence sell turbojet motors to Turkey based on numerical restrictions. USA block many weapon sales to Turkey even in today. What I mean, A likely embargo or restrictions just depends on political wishes and approaches of countries among eacothers. Take a look a country like Russia can't take delivery of their paid LHD from France so Seperating countries into categories to classify one as "Not to anything", While keep ordering strategic assets like AEW&C, fighter, missiles, UAV's from very similar source having deep and tied political and economicaş connections/relations with USA doesn't make any sense.


Sir that are other issues we have which are their because of corruption and other serious problems. Yes I know times have changed and we are trying to develop our own industry and looking to corporate more with Turkey and Indonesia and other Muslim countries. You guys are doing good we need to catch up really fast. But one major we face is lack of funds, in fact its the biggest issue.

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## Basel

Path-Finder said:


> #605?
> 
> 
> 
> Valid point! we did order ah-1z and more f16's are apparently coming. You guys dont give kickbacks to our greedy politicians maybe



AH1-Z & F-16s are stop gap measures they will not be Pakistan front line weapons systems in future.

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## Super Falcon

Basel said:


> AH1-Z & F-16s are stop gap measures they will not be Pakistan front line weapons systems in future.


F 16 cannot be stop gap as of today as we speak it is front line so we r using these f 16 since 2 decades as stop gap sorry friend i agree with u with curreng situation F 16 can never be frontline it is secondry with time passes even latest F 16 is sitting duck F 16 era is over even US aurforce dont use them as secondry fighter jet they use it for mostly taining and border control


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## Andrei_bt

Oplot - T photos -

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## Zarvan

@kaonalpha Does AK 2 looks a lot like German Leopard Tank ? @Icarus @balixd


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## Super Falcon

Zaarvan there are no official pics ok AK 2 how ws compare it with leopard tank

Pakistan army should not invest more on tank

Alkhalid 1
Al khalid 2
Al zarrar 
T 80ud
Are enough for me we should opt for better mrls than A 100 bmp type tank busters ATGM and helicopters


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## WaLeEdK2

Zarvan said:


> T-84 Oplot M will replace our older Tanks like T-69 and T-85 and AK 2 will be our MBT specially for Desert Area.


I thought you said there was no such thing as AK2?


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## Mani2020

Basel said:


> AH1-Z & F-16s are stop gap measures they will not be Pakistan front line weapons systems in future.


Any fighter that has served you for this number of years can't be a stop gap measure , this is even evident from the fact that paf opted for f-16s even after the embargo was lifted in early 2000s and paf had options from France Sweden and Britain to pick from .. There are other considerations as well like we can't afford Rafael and EFT besides they are also quite prone to embargoes with the French option has some leverage based upon retrospects but still . besides as paf is always looking to up the numbers of f-16s may it be by buying used ones or exercising the option of new one ...the fact is paf is going to do similar to what they did with mirages back in times...all of that because paf considers f-16 their front line fighter against Indian modern jets since jf-17 hasn't evolved that much and we still know avionics wise jft is not at par with block 52 ..so until any other 4.5 or 5th generation fighter gets inducted in significant numbers f-16 will remain your front line fighter ...the only thing that can save us this time is paf sourcing enough surplus/buffer spares that keeps f-16s flying even during hard times


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## C130

Super Falcon said:


> Zaarvan there are no official pics ok AK 2 how ws compare it with leopard tank
> 
> Pakistan army should not invest more on tank
> 
> Alkhalid 1
> Al khalid 2
> Al zarrar
> T 80ud
> Are enough for me we should opt for better mrls than A 100 bmp type tank busters ATGM and helicopters




like this?

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## Zarvan

WaLeEdK2 said:


> I thought you said there was no such thing as AK2?


I mean new AK project what ever it is called some sources call it AK 1 and some called AK 2. It's pretty much a new Tank completely new.



Super Falcon said:


> Zaarvan there are no official pics ok AK 2 how ws compare it with leopard tank
> 
> Pakistan army should not invest more on tank
> 
> Alkhalid 1
> Al khalid 2
> Al zarrar
> T 80ud
> Are enough for me we should opt for better mrls than A 100 bmp type tank busters ATGM and helicopters


Sr it is their and pics are also their and my source has asked for permission from Army the moment he gets I would post them here



C130 said:


> like this?


Would love to see this beast with our Army

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## Zarvan

Type 90 MS 




Type 99 A2
@kaonalpha Are these those two Tanks which you claimed that would come in December for testing ? Or no more Tanks will be tested, T-84 Oplot M has been finalized as new war horse of Pakistan ? @Icarus @balixd


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## cabatli_53

Super Falcon said:


> Zaarvan there are no official pics ok AK 2 how ws compare it with leopard tank
> 
> Pakistan army should not invest more on tank
> 
> Alkhalid 1
> Al khalid 2
> Al zarrar
> T 80ud
> Are enough for me we should opt for better mrls than A 100 bmp type tank busters ATGM and helicopters



Fire control upgrade + aditional new generation armours + Active protection system integration make those tanks a monster. With this way, It would be no need to invest a new tank project. I also agree with you in that point. Pakistan should seriously consider an upgrade solution.


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## Pakistanisage

I am getting mixed signals from army bigwigs. There is even rumour that out of the two tested , Oplot M is preferred but it is by no means the Finalist. It is quite possible that in the final step we may opt for further upgrades of our present stock.

@kaonalpha @Zarvan @Super Falcon

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## Zarvan

Pakistanisage said:


> I am getting mixed signals from army bigwigs. There is even rumour that out of the two tested , Oplot M is preferred but it is by no means the Finalist. It is quite possible that in the final step we may opt for further upgrades of our present stock.
> 
> @kaonalpha @Zarvan @Super Falcon


Sir what I have heard till now is AK 2 is pretty much ready and will soon enter production. The tests are for other Tank which we want because as India is already looking for T-72 replacement we are already looking for a answer but this T-99A2 more advanced Tank. Still it would be great to see AK 2 along with either Oplot M or T-99 A2 and AK 1 and Type 80 in our Armored Division. @Sulman Badshah

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## C130

Zarvan said:


> Type 90 MS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type 99 A2
> @kaonalpha Are these those two Tanks which you claimed that would come in December for testing ? Or no more Tanks will be tested, T-84 Oplot M has been finalized as new war horse of Pakistan ? @Icarus @balixd




would NLAW kill both of these tanks??


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## Zarvan

C130 said:


> would NLAW kill both of these tanks??


Well if hit on the right spot it would cause massive damage. But still Tanks are of great value in battlefield. Pakistan also needs to similar Anti Tank Missile to as for now best option is HJ-12 from China. Second option can be from Turkey.


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## Zarvan

@kaonalpha and @Icarus and @balixd Some one has told me that Pakistan Army team is in negotiations with Ukraine for complete TOT of 1500 HP engine and produce them in Pakistan ? Is it true ? @Horus


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## Basel

Mani2020 said:


> Any fighter that has served you for this number of years can't be a stop gap measure , this is even evident from the fact that paf opted for f-16s even after the embargo was lifted in early 2000s and paf had options from France Sweden and Britain to pick from .. There are other considerations as well like we can't afford Rafael and EFT besides they are also quite prone to embargoes with the French option has some leverage based upon retrospects but still . besides as paf is always looking to up the numbers of f-16s may it be by buying used ones or exercising the option of new one ...the fact is paf is going to do similar to what they did with mirages back in times...all of that because paf considers f-16 their front line fighter against Indian modern jets since jf-17 hasn't evolved that much and we still know avionics wise jft is not at par with block 52 ..so until any other 4.5 or 5th generation fighter gets inducted in significant numbers f-16 will remain your front line fighter ...the only thing that can save us this time is paf sourcing enough surplus/buffer spares that keeps f-16s flying even during hard times



F-16s are stop gap jets to complement front line jet of future, they were inducted because they could be rapidly inducted and reduce the tech gap between PAF & IAF. If it would not be the case then PAF would have gone for JAS-39s because they fits the PAF defensive doctrine well.

PAF is waiting for Chinese to master new tech specially 5th gen one, because it is the most safest way to fill future requirements. US & Europe will not provide top of the line products without strings attached and they will not offer open architecture systems on board.

Sorry for being Off Topic.

Which two other tanks are expected to be tested by PA? can any one post pics with detail analysis of all tanks in trials or coming for trials??


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## Super Falcon

Pakistanisage said:


> I am getting mixed signals from army bigwigs. There is even rumour that out of the two tested , Oplot M is preferred but it is by no means the Finalist. It is quite possible that in the final step we may opt for further upgrades of our present stock.
> 
> @kaonalpha @Zarvan @Super Falcon


Yes we dont need tanks right now we are if not better we have good tank we need to save money and wait for next 3 to 4 years let mbt 300 develop more in that time army should invest buying dedicated air wing


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## Pakistanisage

Zarvan said:


> @kaonalpha and @Icarus and @balixd Some one has told me that Pakistan Army team is in negotiations with Ukraine for complete TOT of 1500 HP engine and produce them in Pakistan ? Is it true ? @Horus




If True, that is great news. However, the Ulrainian 1500 HP tank engine 6TD-3 is still being developed and it may be a while before it is fully developed. Since our future tanks will weigh a little above 50 tons, such an engine will give us 30 HP per TON.

Such expertise will also help us replacing AK 1200 HP engine with the new engine as well as upgrade T-80UD with a more powerful engine.


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## Zarvan

Pakistanisage said:


> If True, that is great news. However, the Ulrainian 1500 HP tank engine 6TD-3 is still being developed and it may be a while before it is fully developed. Since our future tanks will weigh a little above 50 tons, such an engine will give us 30 HP per TON.


My source suggests that AK 2 is around 54 to 56 tonnes Tank and is quite similar in shape with German Leopard. Turkey was the main help in developing that Tank and specially inside systems. As for engine I think it is fully developed by now. Some one also told me that Pakistan is in talks with Ukraine to get complete tech of this engine and produce it in Pakistan.

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## SQ8

Have to love all that talk of sources and suni sunai. @Icarus

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## Pakistanisage

Zarvan said:


> My source suggests that AK 2 is around *54 to 56 tonnes* Tank and is quite similar in shape with German Leopard. Turkey was the main help in developing that Tank and specially inside systems. As for engine I think it is fully developed by now. Some one also told me that Pakistan is in talks with Ukraine to get complete tech of this engine and produce it in Pakistan.




54 to 56 Ton Tank may cause some problems with our Terrain especially down South. Would be interesting to see the testing in the Cholistan and Thar desert to see if a heavy tank like that will effect its performance.


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## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> Have to love all that talk of sources and suni sunai. @Icarus


Sir I trust who ever my source is. He has provied me with great info and also HIT guy in an interview said in an year interview that around this year end AK 2 would come or enter production. I am waiting for the pictures the guy who gives this info has asked for permission from Army the moment he gets I would start a thread here. @Pakistanisage Sir even Oplot M is around 54 Tonnes so we can have a Tank with two more tonnes.


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## Mani2020

Basel said:


> F-16s are stop gap jets to complement front line jet of future, they were inducted because they could be rapidly inducted and reduce the tech gap between PAF & IAF. If it would not be the case then PAF would have gone for JAS-39s because they fits the PAF defensive doctrine well.
> 
> PAF is waiting for Chinese to master new tech specially 5th gen one, because it is the most safest way to fill future requirements. US & Europe will not provide top of the line products without strings attached and they will not offer open architecture systems on board.
> 
> Sorry for being Off Topic.
> 
> Which two other tanks are expected to be tested by PA? can any one post pics with detail analysis of all tanks in trials or coming for trials??



Any jet that is inducted to play a second fidel role ( as going by your positioning of f-16s in paf) even that doesn't necessarily means that its a stop gap measure. They were inducted instead of JAS-39 because of multiple reasons 
Firstly already developed infrastructure that resulted into less time and spending in developing infrastructure from scratch for a new fighter
Secondly Paf mastered f-16s over decades
Thirdly JAS-39 already had many parts sourced from various countries including US , so any embargo from US would have similar impact on JAS-39 to what it would have on F-16s
F-16 C/D block 52s were more capable aircrafts
Purchasing F-16s from US had given PAF a window to import other latest goodies from US and enhanced the capability of existing fleet.

You are not an airforce with so many options my friend you currently have only two modern and capable fighters F-16s and Jf-17s and being latest variants of f-16s more advanced than jf-17 you cant afford to keep your most advanced fighter as a stop gap measure or to play a second Fidel role, so your theory is flawed my friend 

Besides you are thinking too ahead in future . Chinese 5th generation aint coming out that soon as many people here are expecting there is still a long way to go instead of prototypes being on the scene . And by no means PAF is going to induct 5th generations in so much numbers that it can not only fill the gap but also replace f-16s . 

And no matter how good friend china is still you cant beef up your inventory from a single source . You always have to look to have multiple options due to various reasons. PAF needs to have a mix of Chinese, Local and European/American fighters. Ratio can vary or tilt in favor of China due to obvious reasons as they are more dependable suppliers and can offer soft loans but still you have to keep your options open. PAF F-16s arent going anywhere till 2030 i believe


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## Zarvan

Mani2020 said:


> Any jet that is inducted to play a second fidel role ( as going by your positioning of f-16s in paf) even that doesn't necessarily means that its a stop gap measure. They were inducted instead of JAS-39 because of multiple reasons
> Firstly already developed infrastructure that resulted into less time and spending in developing infrastructure from scratch for a new fighter
> Secondly Paf mastered f-16s over decades
> Thirdly JAS-39 already had many parts sourced from various countries including US , so any embargo from US would have similar impact on JAS-39 to what it would have on F-16s
> F-16 C/D block 52s were more capable aircrafts
> Purchasing F-16s from US had given PAF a window to import other latest goodies from US and enhanced the capability of existing fleet.
> 
> You are not an airforce with so many options my friend you currently have only two modern and capable fighters F-16s and Jf-17s and being latest variants of f-16s more advanced than jf-17 you cant afford to keep your most advanced fighter as a stop gap measure or to play a second Fidel role, so your theory is flawed my friend
> 
> Besides you are thinking too ahead in future . Chinese 5th generation aint coming out that soon as many people here are expecting there is still a long way to go instead of prototypes being on the scene . And by no means PAF is going to induct 5th generations in so much numbers that it can not only fill the gap but also replace f-16s .
> 
> And no matter how good friend china is still you cant beef up your inventory from a single source . You always have to look to have multiple options due to various reasons. PAF needs to have a mix of Chinese, Local and European/American fighters. Ratio can vary or tilt in favor of China due to obvious reasons as they are more dependable suppliers and can offer soft loans but still you have to keep your options open. PAF F-16s arent going anywhere till 2030 i believe


That is what I am telling them, that first 5th Generation won't come that soon even if does still if you look at PAF and How they have operated in past 60 years they are never gonna depend on only two type of 4.5 th Generation Fighter Jets they are looking for third one but right now it seem they are interested more in SU-35 than in J-10 B. So let's hope for the best


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## SQ8

Zarvan said:


> Sir I trust who ever my source is. He has provied me with great info and also HIT guy in an interview said in an year interview that around this year end AK 2 would come or enter production. I am waiting for the pictures the guy who gives this info has asked for permission from Army the moment he gets I would start a thread here. @Pakistanisage Sir even Oplot M is around 54 Tonnes so we can have a Tank with two more tonnes.



Im not stopping you from trusting and posting information from whosoever. I just dont buy it.. prefer finding out from the right people myself before agreeing or disagreeing OR simply keeping quiet once I know.

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## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> Im not stopping you from trusting and posting information from whosoever. I just dont buy it.. prefer finding out from the right people myself before agreeing or disagreeing OR simply keeping quiet once I know.


Okay Sir I hope to get the pictures soon than I would post them here you can also get it confirmed weather pics are right or not


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## Icarus

Oscar said:


> Have to love all that talk of sources and suni sunai. @Icarus



The world where anything and everything is a possibility.

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## Jango

Zarvan said:


> I would start a thread here..



Bhai jaan aik to aap ko thread start karnay ki bauhaut jaldi hoti hai!


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## Zarvan

Jango said:


> Bhai jaan aik to aap ko thread start karnay ki bauhaut jaldi hoti hai!


Well I should share the good news if I manage to get those pictures. Hopefully I would get them soon INSHALLAH.

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## kaonalpha

The oplot M has failed along with the Chinese tanks as both their engines seized during trials. Now the Ukrainians are claiming they will be bringing new engine via sea which will take 6 Months.

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## RAMPAGE

kaonalpha said:


> The oplot M has failed along with the Chinese tanks as both their engines seized during trials. Now the Ukrainians are claiming they will be bringing new engine via sea which will take 6 Months.


What's the status of AK2?


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## s.k

Can they please test T14 Armata also ? Just on my requste please ? Im in love with that tank


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## HRK

kaonalpha said:


> The oplot M has failed along with the Chinese tanks as both their engines seized during trials. Now the Ukrainians are claiming they will be bringing new engine via sea which will take 6 Months.



why not via 'express mail' ... we can't wait that long ...


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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> The oplot M has failed along with the Chinese tanks as both their engines seized during trials. Now the Ukrainians are claiming they will be bringing new engine via sea which will take 6 Months.


So now it failed ? What is Army upto and why not try 1500 HP engine being used by China for T-99 A2. Also I have heard that two AK-2 prototypes are under trial since 2013. So what is latest on AK-2 ? @Icarus @balixd


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## Bratva

kaonalpha said:


> The oplot M has failed along with the Chinese tanks as both their engines seized during trials. Now the Ukrainians are claiming they will be bringing new engine via sea which will take 6 Months.




Big Eidi to be launched soon ! (for india)

Cancelled or Bakra eid par?


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## kaonalpha

Bratva said:


> Big Eidi to be launched soon ! (for india)
> 
> Cancelled or Bakra eid par?


yeah floods



kaonalpha said:


> yeah floods


cancelled


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## Jango

Bratva said:


> Big Eidi to be launched soon ! (for india)
> 
> Cancelled or Bakra eid par?



Apni hi koi eid mana lain gay, Popalzai style!



kaonalpha said:


> The oplot M has failed along with the Chinese tanks as both their engines seized during trials. Now the Ukrainians are claiming they will be bringing new engine via sea which will take 6 Months.



Why not through air?

I can't imagine PA holding off their trials for 6 months because it takes the Ukrainians that much to bring in an engine.

Is say jaldi to Bell-412 ki puri transmission train ajati hai Amreeka say!

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> yeah floods
> 
> 
> cancelled


Well should we expect test in two months and what is latest on AK-2 I know two prototypes are under trials since 2013.


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> Well should we expect test in two months and what is latest on AK-2 I know two prototypes are under trials since 2013.


As i said before i am not sure.And i don't believe it exists given our current circumstances


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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> As i said before i am not sure.And i don't believe it exists given our current circumstances


Well my friends think it does so OPLOT M has also failed. Will we test now T-90 MS and T-99 A2


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> Well my friends think it does so OPLOT M has also failed. Will we test now T-90 MS and T-99 A2


Well now I am absolutely not sure what we try. We have nothing credible. Ask your friend he should give blur images of AK2 to lighten the mood

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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> Well now I am absolutely not sure what we try. We have nothing credible. Ask your friend he should give blur images of AK2 to lighten the mood


We should test South Korean K-2. As for AK-2 pics friend says you get and post at least one picture he would than even post pics from inside AK-2. @Icarus @balixd


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## [Bregs]

arey bhai koi zaldi nahi induct these tanks leisurely, India is too taking time for its fighters because we are not going to fight a war as its not in interest of anyone 

Most of these weapons are for deterrence and war possibility is nil except border tensions or skirmishes


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> We should test South Korean K-2. As for AK-2 pics friend says you get and post at least one picture he would than even post pics from inside AK-2. @Icarus @balixd


I don't understand he is asking permission. ? I dont know any one who knows regarding AK2 other than you.


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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> I don't understand he is asking permission. ? I dont know any one who knows regarding AK2 other than you.


his more comment about AK2 

55-56 ton 
1500HP Engine
* 125 MM With New Advanced auto loader/Stabilized gun [Pakistan Made by HIT]
* Highly sophisticated, Thermal,Night Vision, Infrared target acquisition suite, jointly developed with ASELSAN [Turkey]
* New advanced,Integrated Battle Management System (IBMS) Jointly developed by ASELSAN/HAVELSAN & GIDS
* New active threat-protection system, upgrade from a "passive" one.
* It will be, one of the most heavily weaponized per tonnage of any tank in the world,being able to carry 49 125mm rounds, 1,500 12.7mm and 7,100 7.62mm rounds
* HEAT and APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot)
* Re designed Turret
* NBC protection.
* Indegeneuos Armour (believed to defeat all current known 125mm and 120mm )
@Icarus @balixd


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> his more comment about AK2
> 
> 55-56 ton
> 1500HP Engine
> * 125 MM With New Advanced auto loader/Stabilized gun [Pakistan Made by HIT]
> * Highly sophisticated, Thermal,Night Vision, Infrared target acquisition suite, jointly developed with ASELSAN [Turkey]
> * New advanced,Integrated Battle Management System (IBMS) Jointly developed by ASELSAN/HAVELSAN & GIDS
> * New active threat-protection system, upgrade from a "passive" one.
> * It will be, one of the most heavily weaponized per tonnage of any tank in the world,being able to carry 49 125mm rounds, 1,500 12.7mm and 7,100 7.62mm rounds
> * HEAT and APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot)
> * Re designed Turret
> * NBC protection.
> * Indegeneuos Armour (believed to defeat all current known 125mm and 120mm )
> @Icarus @balixd


Lies that is nothing. The indigenous Armour had turned to dust from one hit by a 125 mm.

He is taking you for a ride Zarvan.Ask him to show you the pics or rest assured on my previous statement.

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## waz

kaonalpha said:


> The oplot M has failed along with the Chinese tanks as both their engines seized during trials. Now the Ukrainians are claiming they will be bringing new engine via sea which will take 6 Months.



Well that's that then. Altay maybe?


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## kaonalpha

waz said:


> Well that's that then. Altay maybe?


I have absolutely no idea. All i knew was about MBT-3000 and Oplot M . We are doomed


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## waz

kaonalpha said:


> I have absolutely no idea. All i knew was about MBT-3000 and Oplot M . We are doomed



Head up brother, let's see what happens. There is Turkey, China could put forward another solution etc.


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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


> Lies that is nothing. The indigenous Armour had turned to dust from one hit by a 125 mm.
> 
> He is taking you for a ride Zarvan.Ask him to show you the pics or rest assured on my previous statement.


I will but he is not alone another Guy with several close relatives in Army has told that two prototypes are under testing since 2013. Pictures can come by this year end I mean Army may start releasing them. I don't have one source. Pakistan is also trying to negotiate with Ukraine for complete tech of its 1500 HP engine. You are in Army try to contact HIT if not pictures at least get it confirmed that does two prototypes of AK-2 exist ? @Icarus also said AK-2 is still running in fact he even talks about AK-3 in future. @balixd @Horus



waz said:


> Well that's that then. Altay maybe?


Altay is way to heavy but through help of Turkey as it has close defence relations with South Korea it can be K-2 than


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## araz

kaonalpha said:


> I don't understand he is asking permission. ? I dont know any one who knows regarding AK2 other than you.


@Zarvan and @kaonalpha 
Please stop this idiocy NOW. You guys have no concept of state and its necessity to maintain crrtain things as secrets. You have leaked a premature bit of news releasing photgraphs of people involved in trials and thereby compromising their security. How can it be that the trials are not even completed and by your own account 2 further tanks are to be tested and you have a winner which YOU have been told about as an assured winner without other tanks even having been tested. 
You need to grow up and stop propogating half baked truths and compromising state security just so that you can thump your stupid chests and be the first one to break the news. Please check with the mods before you print any more info and especially photos. Believe me you are causing harm to your nation so stop this once and for all.
araz

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## ACE OF THE AIR

kaonalpha said:


> Lies that is nothing. The indigenous Armour had turned to dust from one hit by a 125 mm.
> 
> He is taking you for a ride Zarvan.Ask him to show you the pics or rest assured on my previous statement.


These were the upgrades intended to be for AK-2... Some of the things did end up in AK-1 hence there is no news about AK-2. 

AFIK ALTAY is not going to be available to Pakistan as the engine and gearbox are Japanese and they have been refused. It can only be available if there is an alternate engine from Western source so that it can technically be classified as NATO product.


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## Zarvan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> These were the upgrades intended to be for AK-2... Some of the things did end up in AK-1 hence there is no news about AK-2.
> 
> AFIK ALTAY is not going to be available to Pakistan as the engine and gearbox are Japanese and they have been refused. It can only be available if there is an alternate engine from Western source so that it can technically be classified as NATO product.


Engine is German not Japanees as for AK-2 two prototypes are under trial since 2013


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## Irfan Baloch

araz said:


> @Zarvan and @kaonalpha
> Please stop this idiocy NOW. You guys have no concept of state and its necessity to maintain crrtain things as secrets. You have leaked a premature bit of news releasing photgraphs of people involved in trials and thereby compromising their security.



since no amount of telling off and advice seems to be working so there will be two sets of visits.. one to those who are breaking the code of conduct and confidentiality act and passing these news to naive individuals you tagged and then these "naive" posters themselves will get a "customized" visit by the same people according to the level of their innocence and involvement.
enough already.

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## waz

Zarvan said:


> Altay is way to heavy but through help of Turkey as it has close defence relations with South Korea it can be K-2 than



Some sort of lighter version, around the 55 ton mark. Although the K2 is around that weight.


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## Bratva

araz said:


> @Zarvan and @kaonalpha
> Please stop this idiocy NOW. You guys have no concept of state and its necessity to maintain crrtain things as secrets. You have leaked a premature bit of news releasing photgraphs of people involved in trials and thereby compromising their security. How can it be that the trials are not even completed and by your own account 2 further tanks are to be tested and you have a winner which YOU have been told about as an assured winner without other tanks even having been tested.
> You need to grow up and stop propogating half baked truths and compromising state security just so that you can thump your stupid chests and be the first one to break the news. Please check with the mods before you print any more info and especially photos. Believe me you are causing harm to your nation so stop this once and for all.
> araz




Wesay testing new tanks aren't state secrets. it is Pakistan army which is in habit of maintaining trivial things as state secrets. One has to take an example of american weapon programs, F-22, F-35, Laser Programs, Even the super duper X-37

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## Neptune

Bratva said:


> Wesay testing new tanks aren't state secrets. it is Pakistan army which is in habit of maintaining trivial things as state secrets. One has to take an example of american weapon programs, F-22, F-35, Laser Programs, Even the super duper X-37



The people who are working on it are important as well. Well US does a damn good work of a PR as a PSYOP, never seen the fate of someone who actually leaked unknown info. Not one but all members should bear in mind PERSEC and OPSEC, something that doesn't seem to be taken seriously by most of members and kids here in this forum.

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## Hell hound

Bratva said:


> Wesay testing new tanks aren't state secrets. it is Pakistan army which is in habit of maintaining trivial things as state secrets. One has to take an example of american weapon programs, F-22, F-35, Laser Programs, Even the super duper X-37


totally agree with you its only tank procurement and we are not even making them so spec are also all over the net then why pa is getting all secretive about it .its not like hq 9 which was needed to be kept secret for the purpose of surprise. is it because if they openly discussed the plan then they wont be able to get kickbacks due to process becoming public


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## Bratva

Neptune said:


> *The people who are working on it are important as well. Well US does a damn good work of a PR as a PSYOP, never seen the fate of someone who actually leaked unknown info.* Not one but all members should bear in mind PERSEC and OPSEC, something that doesn't seem to be taken seriously by most of members and kids here in this forum.



Keeping CIA,NSA leaks aside. Americans don't keep trivial projects under wraps because of the accountibility involved. They reveal most of the civilian and military contractors/personnel involved in it despite the apprehensions, they might get kidnapped or worse someone invade their home, inject truth serum and extract info from them. But accountibility and preventing kickbacks is what makes them list their projects public


Long before B-3 Next Gen Stealth bomber was revealed in an ad during superbowl, this amateur photographer took it's photo in texas and he lives to tell the story








Hell hound said:


> totally agree with you its only tank procurement and we are not even making them so spec are also all over the net then why pa is getting all secretive about it .its not like hq 9 which was needed to be kept secret for the purpose of surprise. is it because if they openly discussed the plan then they wont be able to get kickbacks due to process becoming public



Kickbacks in SAAB program, ZDK program. Heck nobody knows the true quantity even today of the both AWAC fleet. Height of keeping things secret due to national security


----------



## Zarvan

Bratva said:


> Keeping CIA,NSA leaks aside. Americans don't keep trivial projects under wraps because of the accountibility involved. They reveal most of the civilian and military contractors/personnel involved in it despite the apprehensions, they might get kidnapped or worse someone invade their home, inject truth serum and extract info from them. But accountibility and preventing kickbacks is what makes them list their projects public
> 
> 
> Long before B-3 Next Gen Stealth bomber was revealed in an ad during superbowl, this amateur photographer took it's photo in texas and he lives to tell the story
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kickbacks in SAAB program, ZDK program. Heck nobody knows the true quantity even today of the both AWAC fleet. Height of keeping things secret due to national security


Their are no kickbacks and we had 4 Saab one got destroyed so we went for one more ZDK.


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## Neptune

Bratva said:


> Keeping CIA,NSA leaks aside. Americans don't keep trivial projects under wraps because of the accountibility involved. They reveal most of the civilian and military contractors/personnel involved in it despite the apprehensions, they might get kidnapped or worse someone invade their home, inject truth serum and extract info from them. But accountibility and preventing kickbacks is what makes them list their projects public
> 
> 
> Long before B-3 Next Gen Stealth bomber was revealed in an ad during superbowl, this amateur photographer took it's photo in texas and he lives to tell the story
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kickbacks in SAAB program, ZDK program. Heck nobody knows the true quantity even today of the both AWAC fleet. Height of keeping things secret due to national security



It is okay for sharing what you've captured but if you share content that was taken illegally by an unknown person and even a face photo of a key engineer can cause problems. We suffered that before thx to arrogant Turkish media. A news site had revealed the names and expertise of engineers working at TF-X project, they were fined by the court. As I said these things seem all OK for most of you, I have personally being a Turk and unrelated with the project have no problem with that but it is much more important and critical than it seems. I fully second what @Irfan Baloch or @araz have written there above. TT group should unite and contact with Staff as a whole to strictly regulate PERSEC and OPSEC. But here in internet most people behind keyboard are people employed in private sector, students, interested people, engineers...etc..that unfortunately they are not aware of this threat. So yes we can be called paranoid people but that's a reality.

If I was to go deeper;

If I just dig in the SSG thread or to threads where it is easy to access photos from combat and see the physical appearances of military personnel even special forces; You can collect data on PA or whoever you target if you're a national agency. But never mind yara

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## Zarvan

VelocuR said:


> Sir Sir g, I don't think they will step down to safeguard Pakistan's security risks in order to get high trophy or gold medals promotions or probably sell publicly. Big talking is not working in Pakistan, only action works no doubt. Our Moderators policy here I think is pretty weak.
> 
> T-84 oplot M the new war horse of Pakistan ? - *Failed*
> 
> Big Eidi to be launched soon ! (for india) - *Failed*
> 
> 
> 
> So Pakistan should do same as US? What about Russia or China tightly?


Eidi is delayed due to floods as for T-84 hopefully engine issue will be resolved soon


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## Zarvan

VelocuR said:


> Whatever, keep making up story to yourself. No-one will believe your drama. Your credibility is just based on many bullshitting stuffs, you have worked hard enough to get high promotions.


Yes yes off course


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## ACE OF THE AIR

@waz 

The T84 OPLOT has failed so why should this thread remain open... 

The topic has also opened a lot of secrets....



Bratva said:


> Wesay testing new tanks aren't state secrets. it is Pakistan army which is in habit of maintaining trivial things as state secrets. One has to take an example of american weapon programs, F-22, F-35, Laser Programs, Even the super duper X-37





Neptune said:


> The people who are working on it are important as well. Well US does a damn good work of a PR as a PSYOP, never seen the fate of someone who actually leaked unknown info. Not one but all members should bear in mind PERSEC and OPSEC, something that doesn't seem to be taken seriously by most of members and kids here in this forum.



Brothers, Why do you think Snowden is still in Russia... He even disclosed some stuff that was supposed to be a guarded secret. They did court marshal the main person who gave the computer files....

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## kaonalpha

Yeah i have asked Horus to close this thread. So good bye

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## Super Falcon

Well if both tanks are failed what next


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## masud




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## waz

The tank failed as per reports from reliable forum members. Pakistan will be probably looking elsewhere. Thread closed.

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## Lavrentiy

Bratva said:


> Wesay testing new tanks aren't state secrets. it is Pakistan army which is in habit of maintaining trivial things as state secrets. One has to take an example of american weapon programs, F-22, F-35, Laser Programs, Even the super duper X-37


They actually don't want transparency so that they can hide their corruption.

Military would never ever agree to civilian oversight. They wouldn't even let you audit their kitchen expenses let alone weapons programs.

There is no state secret about a tank which is just an ordinary weapon.


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## Zarvan

Lavrentiy said:


> They actually don't want transparency so that they can hide their corruption.
> 
> Military would never ever agree to civilian oversight. They wouldn't even let you audit their kitchen expenses let alone weapons programs.
> 
> There is no state secret about a tank which is just an ordinary weapon.


Army hardly has any corruption in it. As for topic I think we are not in much hurry so yes we would test other Tanks but we would 6 months to see if Ukraine can meet its promise and sort out engine problem @Bratva

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## Lavrentiy

Zarvan said:


> Army hardly has any corruption in it.

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## Capt.Popeye

kaonalpha said:


> The oplot M has failed along with the Chinese tanks as both their engines seized during trials. Now the Ukrainians are claiming they will be bringing new engine via sea which will take 6 Months.




Six month to come as freight from Ukraine by sea....... is it gonna come by a Sailing Ship like a Dhow or something....


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## Icarus

Lavrentiy said:


> They actually don't want transparency so that they can hide their corruption.
> 
> Military would never ever agree to civilian oversight. They wouldn't even let you audit their kitchen expenses let alone weapons programs.
> 
> There is no state secret about a tank which is just an ordinary weapon.



Every unit in the Army undergoes three routine rounds of audit *under civilian auditors*, kindly learn a thing or two before mouthing off. The level of transparency in the Army is such that my unit was once subject to additional audit after an auditor reported that the unit actually spent 11,000 rupees less than it was supposed to have spent, the discrepancy was later found to be due to the booking of train carriages where one carriage had been cancelled as some sepoys rode tank transporters on the way back rather than taking the train, and the cancellation did not make it on paper.

As for your comment about a tank being 'just an ordinary weapon', you clearly know nothing of the importance of armour in a country's arsenal and about the importance of not announcing what you intend to induct in over a decade's time so that its advantage is lost completely before it is even brought into service. The only reason these leaks are making onto the forum is because they are 10% fact and 90% guesswork.

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## Zarvan

Lavrentiy said:


>


Yes some crazy and out of their mind people laugh like you do but that is a fact Armed Forces have hardly any corruption because of strong accountability but supporters of corrupt like you are to blind to see

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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> We should test South Korean K-2. As for AK-2 pics friend says you get and post at least one picture he would than even post pics from inside AK-2. @Icarus @balixd


there are too heavy, it's similar to the turkish altay tank



waz said:


> Head up brother, let's see what happens. There is Turkey, China could put forward another solution etc.


the turkish altay tank is the best option for Pakistan as it incorporates some of the best tech in the world. and turkey and pakistan being very good friends a deal can be done. also this is a good idea as Pakistan reputation would attract other countries to buy the tank as well. same thing with the anka and the t129. turkey has some of the best tech, use it or lose it. 

pakistan should be independent and resist US incentives. as they only hold short term advantages. and build its own industry, so it can develop it own weapons. or it can intragate the tech with other systems. example turkish systems in the Chinese z10 chopper.


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## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> there are too heavy, it's similar to the turkish altay tank
> 
> 
> the turkish altay tank is the best option for Pakistan as it incorporates some of the best tech in the world. and turkey and pakistan being very good friends a deal can be done. also this is a good idea as Pakistan reputation would attract other countries to buy the tank as well. same thing with the anka and the t129. turkey has some of the best tech, use it or lose it.
> 
> pakistan should be independent and resist US incentives. as they only hold short term advantages. and build its own industry, so it can develop it own weapons. or it can intragate the tech with other systems. example turkish systems in the Chinese z10 chopper.


No Korean K-2 is 56 Tonnes but Altay is 65 tonnes


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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> No Korean K-2 is 56 Tonnes but Altay is 65 tonnes


if you got deep enough pockets to buy a few thousand then go for it but make sure you get tot as thats important. tell that to your sources. some good advice right there.



Zarvan said:


> No Korean K-2 is 56 Tonnes but Altay is 65 tonnes


why did the t-84 fail testing what caused it? to fail/not meet requirements


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## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> if you got deep enough pockets to buy a few thousand then go for it but make sure you get tot as thats important. tell that to your sources. some good advice right there.
> 
> 
> why did the t-84 fail testing what caused it? to fail/not meet requirements


The engine has some issues other than that a great Tank. So Pakistan may weight so Ukraine can sort out engine problem

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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> The tank failed as per reports from reliable forum members. Pakistan will be probably looking elsewhere. Thread closed.


the thread is still open. #fail


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## Magi Brahmin

47 pages ki Nautanki.
stop behaving like us, we have copyright on delaying defence projects :p

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## graphican

Mahakaal said:


> 47 pages ki Nautanki.
> stop behaving like us, we have copyright on delaying defence projects :p



No not even close. We do not have supernatural expectations from OEMs. This thread started on 11th of July and within a month we reached a result. Don't compare your failures with this engine failure.. your failures deserve "hanging ovation" for its members.

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## Umair Nawaz

phantomrush said:


> Unfortunately, if Pakistan sign a contract with Ukraine, it will get yourself a huge ***. For tank called that did not pass the test-firing is not possible.
> Yes, yes, this tank was not full tests. And all his body is remake the T-80 remaining after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
> Quality steel BTR-4 to Iraq-a vivid example.
> 
> And do not believe the tales andrei_bt. Let them tell you about the "shame" Dozor-B. Or that a country in which civil war puts lattice old tanks, and repairs them at the expense of local residents and volunteers. Where is their vaunted "Tank" industry.


If Pakistan buys this the major point in this deal is 60% domestic manufacturing which will come with Transfer of tech. This will help grow our industrial capability, knowledge base as well as manufacturing experience. In future our own AK series will get benefit.

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## Zarvan

Umair Nawaz said:


> If Pakistan buys this the major point in this deal is 60% domestic manufacturing which will come with Transfer of tech. This will help grow our industrial capability, knowledge base as well as manufacturing experience. In future our own AK series will get benefit.


Well if Pakistan us satisfied with T-84 OPLOT M and only problem is engine than Pakistan should check South Korean or Chinese 1500 HP engine. @kaonalpha


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## fatman17

AK is the way to go with western upgrades. army requirement is 1200 AK's but so far only 400 odd have been delivered.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> AK is the way to go with western upgrades. army requirement is 1200 AK's but so far only 400 odd have been delivered.


450 --- 50 more were on order - 2014 report

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> AK is the way to go with western upgrades. army requirement is 1200 AK's but so far only 400 odd have been delivered.





fatman17 said:


> AK is the way to go with western upgrades. army requirement is 1200 AK's but so far only 400 odd have been delivered.


Sir I have heard about two AK-2 prototypes under trials since 2013 but no further news.


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## Pakistanisage

Zarvan said:


> Sir I have heard about two AK-2 prototypes under trials since 2013 but no further news.





I think we are still working on a more Powerful AK designed by us.


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## Zarvan

Pakistanisage said:


> I think we are still working on a more Powerful AK designed by us.


Yes I am exactly talking about that AK


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## graphican

Is Korean MT on the cards? That is rated very well on "youtube videos"


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## monitor

why T-84 oplot fail any detail idea ?


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## graphican

monitor said:


> why T-84 oplot fail any detail idea ?



I think its engine was seized, most probably in desert trials where dust and temperature both go against engines. Our Alkhalid shines there and we need something that reliable yet more potent.

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## Akasa

First, the Abrams failed.
Then, the MBT-3000 failed.
Now, the Oplot failed.

This trend speaks to me that the bane of these armored vehicles is likely their inability to handle extreme climate and terrain conditions found in Pakistan and not something inherently inadequate with their combat capabilities.

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## TheNoob

SinoSoldier said:


> First, the Abrams failed.
> Then, the MBT-3000 failed.
> Now, the Oplot failed.
> 
> This trend speaks to me that the bane of these armored vehicles is likely their inability to handle extreme climate and terrain conditions found in Pakistan and not something inherently inadequate with their combat capabilities.



Its time we make something for ourselves...


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## Zarvan

SinoSoldier said:


> First, the Abrams failed.
> Then, the MBT-3000 failed.
> Now, the Oplot failed.
> 
> This trend speaks to me that the bane of these armored vehicles is likely their inability to handle extreme climate and terrain conditions found in Pakistan and not something inherently inadequate with their combat capabilities.


Yes because we have extreme temperatures from -50 to 55 C.


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## Beta-Fighter

graphican said:


> I think its engine was seized, most probably in desert trials where dust and temperature both go against engines. Our Alkhalid shines there and we need something that reliable yet more potent.


Both use engine from same country and same company. so I don't think engine can seized. Though powerful engine require more cooling which should have been taken care of by the OEM / PA.

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## graphican

Beta-Fighter said:


> Both use engine from same country and same company. so I don't think engine can seized. Though powerful engine require more cooling which should have been taken care of by the OEM / PA.



That is the case as per reported news. 
T-84 oplot M fails testing what now for the army, in terms of tanks? | Page 44


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## niaz

Car/tank engines are cooled by the air sucked in from outside and when incoming air is at 50 C; engine cooling system needs to be extra efficient. I have driven many times on sand dunes in 4 X 4 vehicles in the Fujairah area. My vehicles were Jeep Cherokee and its engine could barely cope with long drives on sand and rocky terrain during high summer. I could manage by stopping for about 30 minute when things seem to be getting out of hand and always carried a jerry can filled with water for emergencies. Only 4 x4 that worked smoothly was Toyota Land Cruiser and that’s why it was the most popular vehicle among locals who enjoy picnicking in the deep desert.

I would assume that tank engine is no different. Problem is not so much the power of the engine but the cooling system which must be capable of taking sufficient amount of heat out to keep under- hood temperature under control even when engines is running at maximum rpm. In the UAE, some people modified their vehicles by installing larger radiators.

Understand M1 Abrams also suffered similar problem in Cholistan desert about 20 years back. In a tank where everything is enclosed, keeping a 1500 HP diesel engine sufficiently cool must present a stiff technical challenge.

In view of the problem with T-84 oplot M, I suppose Pak Army has to rely on Al Khalid which in my opinion is quite a competent tank.

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## waz

blue marlin said:


> the thread is still open. #fail



Yes I know, I'm the one who reopened it after changing the title. Some members wanted it to continue.

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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> Yes I know, I'm the one who reopened it after changing the title. Some members wanted it to continue.


fair enough, thanks good job you kept it open.

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## aliaselin

Why I have heard from NORINCO guy that Pakistan will buy MBT-3000


> 小巴快把支票攥出水来了。。。


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## MMG

The last DIGITEC image is computer generated but killer nonetheless.


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## Muhammad Omar

aliaselin said:


> Why I have heard from NORINCO guy that Pakistan will buy MBT-3000



Seriously i thought MBT 3000 Also failed in the tests 



any news about IFV??


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## aliaselin

Muhammad Omar said:


> Seriously i thought MBT 3000 Also failed in the tests
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> any news about IFV??


Anyway, I'm waiting for his further information about MBT3000. Had VN-1 taken the test? Never know about it


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## Zarvan

aliaselin said:


> Why I have heard from NORINCO guy that Pakistan will buy MBT-3000


No we have rejected MBT-3000



Muhammad Omar said:


> Seriously i thought MBT 3000 Also failed in the tests
> 
> 
> 
> any news about IFV??








This is the best option of IFV for us


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## Pakistanisage

Zarvan said:


> No we have rejected MBT-3000
> 
> 
> View attachment 247433
> 
> This is the best option of IFV for us





Pakistan's Selection criteria involves the following three Factors :

1. Transfer of Technology

2. More than 50 % to 60 % local Parts

3. Strong tank in terms of Movement, Fire Power and Protection at a good price.

The negatives with Turkish Tanks and other Weapons is High Price and lack of ToT because they themselves have borrowed Technology from Europeans and have limitations on further ToT to third Countries.



aliaselin said:


> Why I have heard from NORINCO guy that Pakistan will buy MBT-3000




From what I have heard, nothing has been decided yet as negotiations are continuing. It appears now that Ukrainian Tank deal is not final as Pakistan may still be looking to develop Al Khalid further with new Modifications and Technologies.


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## Zarvan

Pakistanisage said:


> Pakistan's Selection criteria involves the following three Factors :
> 
> 1. Transfer of Technology
> 
> 2. More than 50 % to 60 % local Parts
> 
> 3. Strong tank in terms of Movement, Fire Power and Protection at a good price.
> 
> The negatives with Turkish Tanks and other Weapons is High Price and lack of ToT because they themselves have borrowed Technology from Europeans and have limitations on further ToT to third Countries.


No only issue with Turkish weapons is that Turkey doesn't produce engine, other than that they have best machines to offer.

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## Basel

I have question please some knowledgeable member answer it.

If Oplot M & MBT-3000 have failed in test / trails then how come predecessors like T-80UD & AK (variant of MBT-2000) passed tests in Pakistan and become successful?

How can latest model fail when it is upgrade of previous successful model they are not automobiles they are tanks.

@Horus @waz@Zarvan


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## cabatli_53

Pakistanisage said:


> Pakistan's Selection criteria involves the following three Factors :
> 
> 1. Transfer of Technology
> 
> 2. More than 50 % to 60 % local Parts
> 
> 3. Strong tank in terms of Movement, Fire Power and Protection at a good price.
> 
> The negatives with Turkish Tanks and other Weapons is High Price and lack of ToT because they themselves have borrowed Technology from Europeans and have limitations on further ToT to third Countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From what I have heard, nothing has been decided yet as negotiations are continuing. It appears now that Ukrainian Tank deal is not final as Pakistan may still be looking to develop Al Khalid further with new Modifications and Technologies.



Tulpar IFV(based on Altay MBT) is being offered with two different engine solutions. Scania and MTU. Rest is around related institutes' intellectual and property rights. Otokar didn't borrow any tech to develop IFV so Noone have a saying over Turkish land machines When It is agreed on transfering technologies to countries we are planning to make a deal with.

Tulpar with MTU powerpack





If you compare the prices of Turkish machines with Chinese equivalent, It may seen expensive but It is a wellknown fact that Turkish industry aims to offer the best level systems on less price than equivalents developed by other NATO states. In Europe, So less countries can compete with Turkey in price but China is different story to compare with us...

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## aliaselin

Pakistanisage said:


> Pakistan's Selection criteria involves the following three Factors :
> 
> 1. Transfer of Technology
> 
> 2. More than 50 % to 60 % local Parts
> 
> 3. Strong tank in terms of Movement, Fire Power and Protection at a good price.
> 
> The negatives with Turkish Tanks and other Weapons is High Price and lack of ToT because they themselves have borrowed Technology from Europeans and have limitations on further ToT to third Countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From what I have heard, nothing has been decided yet as negotiations are continuing. It appears now that Ukrainian Tank deal is not final as Pakistan may still be looking to develop Al Khalid further with new Modifications and Technologies.



Which types of IFV Pakistan is in the process of evalution? Wheeled or crawler?


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## Sine Nomine

kaonalpha said:


> The indigenous Armour had turned to dust from one hit by a 125 mm.


In Field of Metallurgy we suck from Mortars to Armour....separate thread is needed to discuss level of incompetency.........

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## Beta-Fighter

Basel said:


> I have question please some knowledgeable member answer it.
> 
> If Oplot M & MBT-3000 have failed in test / trails then how come predecessors like T-80UD & AK (variant of MBT-2000) passed tests in Pakistan and become successful?
> 
> How can latest model fail when it is upgrade of previous successful model they are not automobiles they are tanks.
> 
> @Horus @waz@Zarvan



you touched the raw nerve, many people boast superiority and hiding its minus. This Question of yours will send even Tank maker into Tizzy and run under tablet.

Even T-90 Failed in hot trails and it has to modify to suit Indian hot condition needs by the Army engineers over the period of years. which later replicated in Arjun.


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## Zarvan

Beta-Fighter said:


> you touched the raw nerve, many people boast superiority and hiding its minus. This Question of yours will send even Tank maker into Tizzy and run under tablet.
> 
> Even T-90 Failed in hot trails and it has to modify to suit Indian hot condition needs by the Army engineers over the period of years. which later replicated in Arjun.


Still Arjun is a failure as for T-84 OPLOT M the only problem is in engine and if Ukraine manages to resolve the issue within next few months we will go for OPLOT M and we may go for engine from other country.

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## Beta-Fighter

Zarvan said:


> Still Arjun is a failure as for T-84 OPLOT M the only problem is in engine and if Ukraine manages to resolve the issue within next few months we will go for OPLOT M and we may go for engine from other country.


which account you called Arjun failed? If Arjun is failed then your AK also failed because you are forced to Other country tank , and out of 2500 units you only manage to satisfy only with 500 odd number.

Now you came up with unsual weight thing and parameter and role for other purpose , the same argument is also said for Arjun, as IA is added in the number and defined it role and allocated to its elite units.

A) AK and your other tanks carry same company engine, how come the same company and series engine failed on new tank and success in old tank?

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## Zarvan

Beta-Fighter said:


> which account you called Arjun failed? If Arjun is failed then your AK also failed because you are forced to Other country tank , and out of 2500 units you only manage to satisfy only with 500 odd number.
> 
> Now you came up with unsual weight thing and parameter and role for other purpose , the same argument is also said for Arjun, as IA is added in the number and defined it role and allocated to its elite units.
> 
> A) AK and your other tanks carry same company engine, how come the same company and series engine failed on new tank and success in old tank?


AK we have 500 of them and we are producing more as for OPLOT M that is to replace other Tanks and AK-2 is also about to come. We don't have bigger production rate due to budget. Arjun is a known failure in fact a total disaster. Your Army knows it very well.



Beta-Fighter said:


> which account you called Arjun failed? If Arjun is failed then your AK also failed because you are forced to Other country tank , and out of 2500 units you only manage to satisfy only with 500 odd number.
> 
> Now you came up with unsual weight thing and parameter and role for other purpose , the same argument is also said for Arjun, as IA is added in the number and defined it role and allocated to its elite units.
> 
> A) AK and your other tanks carry same company engine, how come the same company and series engine failed on new tank and success in old tank?


Because that is 1500 HP engine AK has 1200 HP engine. 1500 HP engine has come recently


----------



## tarrar

What exactly is PA looking for when they tested T84 & MBT3000? why have have they both failed the test?


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## graphican

Any change of Leopard2 getting our way?


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## Beta-Fighter

Zarvan said:


> AK we have 500 of them and we are producing more as for OPLOT M that is to replace other Tanks and AK-2 is also about to come. We don't have bigger production rate due to budget. Arjun is a known failure in fact a total disaster. Your Army knows it very well.
> 
> 
> Because that is 1500 HP engine AK has 1200 HP engine. 1500 HP engine has come recently


A) Isn't AK-2 left in favour of MBT-3000 , which was again failed ? It has 1300 HP engine

B) If you don't know OPLOT has 1200 / 1500 HP engine.

So here you theory of Engine do not hold.

*AK -1 engine* :- KMDB  6TD-2 6-cylinder Diesel *1,200 hp (890 kW)*
MBT 3000 - 1,300 hp (969 kW) 
OPLOT - KMDB 6TD-2E 6-cylinder diesel *(1,200 hp)* or KMDB 6TD-3 6-cylinder diesel *(1,500 hp)*
*
Now either you choosing 1200 HP in OPLOT or 1500 HP ? OPLOT and AK has same engines I.e. AK-I and II 

If you are choosing 1200 HP then what is using of AK-1 and if 1500HP what is the utility of AK-2? So you engine theory goes waste here , come with another story to make your AK -1 and AK-2 a scuess. *





graphican said:


> That is the case as per reported news.
> T-84 oplot M fails testing what now for the army, in terms of tanks? | Page 44


just for your Information , Both engine is liquid cooled ....and IF the engine failed then your AK series engine would also get failed.


----------



## Zarvan

Beta-Fighter said:


> A) Isn't AK-2 left in favour of MBT-3000 , which was again failed ? It has 1300 HP engine
> 
> B) If you don't know OPLOT has 1200 / 1500 HP engine.
> 
> So here you theory of Engine do not hold.
> 
> *AK -1 engine* :- KMDB  6TD-2 6-cylinder Diesel *1,200 hp (890 kW)*
> MBT 3000 - 1,300 hp (969 kW)
> OPLOT - KMDB 6TD-2E 6-cylinder diesel *(1,200 hp)* or KMDB 6TD-3 6-cylinder diesel *(1,500 hp)*
> *
> Now either you choosing 1200 HP in OPLOT or 1500 HP ? OPLOT and AK has same engines I.e. AK-I and II
> 
> If you are choosing 1200 HP then what is using of AK-1 and if 1500HP what is the utility of AK-2? So you engine theory goes waste here , come with another story to make your AK -1 and AK-2 a scuess. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> just for your Information , Both engine is liquid cooled ....and IF the engine failed then your AK series engine would also get failed.


Oplot we are testing has 1500 HP engine and no AK-2 project is running, it wasn't stopped. Oplot M will be for replacing our old Tanks like T-59 and T-69 and T-85 and AL ZARRAR. Mr engine is one part only, engine isn't everything, so yes both OPLOT M and AK-2 will have 1500 HP engines but they would be really different in all other features . Their is no such thing as 1200/1500 what you have written is three year old info when 1500 HP was getting ready so now we tested OPLOT M with new 1500 HP and it is giving few problems. So we can test other Tanks also and we may with for Ukraine to sort out the problem with their new 1500 HP engine.


----------



## Zarvan

graphican said:


> Any change of Leopard2 getting our way?


Sources suggest AK-2 is quite similar to Leopard both in shape as well as features


----------



## graphican

Zarvan said:


> Sources suggest AK-2 is quite similar to Leopard both in shape as well as features


I never saw AK in tank comparison or top 10 tanks of the world's lists. ak is our star but it being quite similar to leopard is not known yet. If you have inside info, you may share that.


----------



## Zarvan

graphican said:


> I never saw AK in tank comparison or top 10 tanks of the world's lists. ak is our star but it being quite similar to leopard is not known yet. If you have inside info, you may share that.


Yes AK-2 is pretty much new Tank and is being build by help of Turkey.


----------



## Beta-Fighter

Zarvan said:


> Yes AK-2 is pretty much new Tank and is being build by help of Turkey.


Since when is building and how much more time it will take? Any proto is build or only in paper ? lol

if AK-2 is building then why buying foreign tank? care to explain in what respect is superior or inferior your AK-1 with OPLOT.


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## thrilainmanila

Forget tanks go for IFVs


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## Zarvan

Beta-Fighter said:


> Since when is building and how much more time it will take? Any proto is build or only in paper ? lol
> 
> if AK-2 is building then why buying foreign tank? care to explain in what respect is superior or inferior your AK-1 with OPLOT.


We always have 3 to 4 different Tanks. 2 prototypes of AK-2 are under trial since 2013


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> We always have 3 to 4 different Tanks. 2 prototypes of AK-2 are under trial since 2013


show the pictures


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

graphican said:


> I think its engine was seized, most probably in desert trials where dust and temperature both go against engines. Our Alkhalid shines there and we need something that reliable yet more potent.


The Al-Khalid uses a Ukrainian diesel engine as well - so unless this particular engine was a variant or different engine entirely with issues that are deemed too significant to address with design modifications within whatever time-frame the PA wants, I would not rule out the Oplot on the basis of engine failure alone.


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## Neptune

Guys instead of behaving like girls in shopping centres saying "which one shall I buy" then ending up with window shopping, Why don't you go for your own tank and support a national industry?

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## niaz

Beta-Fighter said:


> Since when is building and how much more time it will take? Any proto is build or only in paper ? lol
> 
> if AK-2 is building then why buying foreign tank? care to explain in what respect is superior or inferior your AK-1 with OPLOT.



As already posted by me, IMO only reason could be the price. 

Understand Al-Khalid II would cost about $5-million. If we can get T-84 Oplot M for about $3.5-million per unit with similar capability; an Armoured Div with about 300 tanks results in saving out about $450-million. Lot of bucks for a cash starved country. I can't come up with any other logical explanation.

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## Zarvan

niaz said:


> As already posted by me, IMO only reason could be the price.
> 
> Understand Al-Khalid II would cost about $5-million. If we can get T-84 Oplot M for about $3.5-million per unit with similar capability; an Armoured Div with about 300 tanks results in saving out about $450-million. Lot of bucks for a cash starved country. I can't come up with any other logical explanation.


We need lot more than 300 T-84. We have to replace more than 1200 old Tanks like T-59 and T-69 and T-85 and others for which we are testing these Tanks. AK-2 will be our main MBT. Pakistan never depends on one Tank alone no matter How good it is. We have habit of going for three to four different types .


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## Beta-Fighter

niaz said:


> As already posted by me, IMO only reason could be the price.
> 
> Understand Al-Khalid II would cost about $5-million. If we can get T-84 Oplot M for about $3.5-million per unit with similar capability; an Armoured Div with about 300 tanks results in saving out about $450-million. Lot of bucks for a cash starved country. I can't come up with any other logical explanation.


If price is the main factor then Chinese tanks would be more beneficial , Plus they give on soft loan?

No country try to compromise its security for few bucks. how much AK -1 Cost? is AK-1 inferior to T84 ?


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## Zarvan

Beta-Fighter said:


> If price is the main factor then Chinese tanks would be more beneficial , Plus they give on soft loan?
> 
> No country try to compromise its security for few bucks. how much AK -1 Cost? is AK-1 inferior to T84 ?


@Sulman Badshah Can answer this question


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Beta-Fighter said:


> how much AK -1 Cost? is AK-1 inferior to T84 ?


AK1 cost about 5 M USD ... as fire power is same AK1 is better in agility while oplot m have good optronics and armour ...


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## Viking 63

The cost of 5 million usd is way to high for AK being made in Pakistan, this shows that as per being cost effective this whole experiment of AK project is a failure.


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## Basel

Beta-Fighter said:


> you touched the raw nerve, many people boast superiority and hiding its minus. This Question of yours will send even Tank maker into Tizzy and run under tablet.
> 
> Even T-90 Failed in hot trails and it has to modify to suit Indian hot condition needs by the Army engineers over the period of years. which later replicated in Arjun.



I also heard in a TV program that Oplot M is very good for cold condition but it will be failure in hot conditions as it is not built for those conditions

During Ukraine crisis some western media was talking about engagement of Ukrainian Oplot-M equipped units Vs Russian Armor and it was said that earlier one got beaten in battle due to unknown reasons, is it true??


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## Sulman Badshah

Viking 63 said:


> The cost of 5 million usd is way to high for AK being made in Pakistan, this shows that as per being cost effective this whole experiment of AK project is a failure.


This is because AK 1 enjoyed almost all of its electronics from EU nations (which are expensive) ...


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## Quwa

It might be a good idea to return to the drawing board and develop a new tank platform, i.e something that accounts for the army's current needs alongside being future-proof.


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## Dazzler

The irony is that the AK-1 performed better than the OPLOT M and MBT 3000 in almost all comparative trials. They need something better than that but there seems nothing in sight. I tell u the 90MS will fail so miserably its not even funny. It has serious flaws in engine transmission and FCS system is pretty average at best. It even lacks a proper hunter killer system.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Engine seizure is not a failure----a mechanical fault can be corrected------.


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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> Yes AK-2 is pretty much new Tank and is being build by help of Turkey.




That means AK-2 will have many similar features with Altay...

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## RAMPAGE

Dazzler said:


> They need something better than that


What more are they exactly looking for?


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## Basel

Pakistan should develop AK-2 with collaboration with Turkey, South Korea, Ukraine if possible because right tech / support form those countries can help make a new beast in class of 50 - 56 tons.


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## Beta-Fighter

Basel said:


> I also heard in a TV program that Oplot M is very good for cold condition but it will be failure in hot conditions as it is not built for those conditions
> 
> During Ukraine crisis some western media was talking about engagement of Ukrainian Oplot-M equipped units Vs Russian Armor and it was said that earlier one got beaten in battle due to unknown reasons, is it true??


I don't think so , Both tank is based on T -72 platforms. T-90MS and T-84 M.

The difference is who will make the better Armour. Most of Western Media is a part of information warfare.



Dazzler said:


> The irony is that the AK-1 performed better than the OPLOT M and MBT 3000 in almost all comparative trials. They need something better than that but there seems nothing in sight. I tell u the 90MS will fail so miserably its not even funny. It has serious flaws in engine transmission and FCS system is pretty average at best. It even lacks a proper hunter killer system.


T-90 initially was failed but later modified to meet Indian hot condition requirement, San A/c it heated up the equipment in hot conditions , but after A/c was fitted it working perfectly.

the reason Arjun defeated the T-90 /T84 M / T-72 etc, T-series cant shoot the target while on the moving , Arjun is designed to destroyed the moving target while on the high speed also.



niaz said:


> As already posted by me, IMO only reason could be the price.
> 
> Understand Al-Khalid II would cost about $5-million. If we can get T-84 Oplot M for about $3.5-million per unit with similar capability; an Armoured Div with about 300 tanks results in saving out about $450-million. Lot of bucks for a cash starved country. I can't come up with any other logical explanation.


But what the use , IA said 50 T Arjun is too heavy for equipment's to carry and for plains and channels across Punjab field.

that's why they field Arjun only in Raj sector, why PAK is going to 50 + ton tank then?


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## Tipu7

Dazzler said:


> The irony is that the AK-1 performed better than the OPLOT M and MBT 3000 in almost all comparative trials. They need something better than that but there seems nothing in sight. I tell u the 90MS will fail so miserably its not even funny. It has serious flaws in engine transmission and FCS system is pretty average at best. It even lacks a proper hunter killer system.


Hence it can be deduced that no NEW tank is coming as it will fail to meet our future requirement. But surprisingly India is continuously producing T90S, and now ready to go for T90MS.......... are Pakistani tank criteria so high that a top Russian machine fail to give appropriate results? 
320 T80UD, almost 600 AK1 by 2017 ........... its not a handsome score ........... we need to gear up our production capabilities if NO more tank is coming. AK2 project must not suffer from slow production just like AK1 suffered.....
By the way, if we are retiring all old Type59,69,85 then it means there is room for almost 1000 tanks........... can we fill it up by AK series alone???


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## Signalian

^^

I say bring in more T-80 from Russian reserves. Customize them to UD standards.

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## In arduis fidelis

RAMPAGE said:


> What more are they exactly looking for?


My best guess!!

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## Dazzler

Beta-Fighter said:


> I don't think so , Both tank is based on T -72 platforms. T-90MS and T-84 M.
> 
> The difference is who will make the better Armour. Most of Western Media is a part of information warfare.
> 
> 
> T-90MS initially was failed but later modified to meet Indian hot condition requirement, San A/c it heated up the equipment in hot conditions , but after A/c was fitted it working perfectly.
> 
> the reason Arjun defeated the T-90 /T84 M / T-72 etc, T-series cant shoot the target while on the moving , Arjun is designed to destroyed the moving target while on the high speed also.
> 
> 
> But what the use , IA said 50 T Arjun is too heavy for equipment's to carry and for plains and channels across Punjab field.
> 
> that's why they field Arjun only in Raj sector, why PAK is going to 50 + ton tank then?



That's a good laugh..thanks mate 

At least learn the difference and read a little you save yourself from embarrassment.

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## Beta-Fighter

Dazzler said:


> That's a good laugh..thanks mate
> 
> At least learn the difference and read a little you save yourself from embarrassment.



In 2001 India bought T-90S and 2006 India bought T-90M. And their is another full length debate of modified T-90 M for India and its Hot conditions. Someone cant understand difference between S and modified M ver for Indian conditions. Which you are experiencing in Oplot now is something India already experienced in 2001 and that's why worked on it and get M versions.

please in simple terms which is superior? AK-1 or T84 OPLOT? If they fight with each other who will win ? don't try to give diplomatic answer. with if and buts , In India Arjun beat T-90 in desert conditions.


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## Signalian

^^

who will win depends upon many factors like strategy, operational execution, force multipliers, intelligence, support such as artillery and air cover, logistics and many other constraints. a one on one is very rare.


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## Quwa

Dazzler said:


> The irony is that the AK-1 performed better than the OPLOT M and MBT 3000 in almost all comparative trials. They need something better than that but there seems nothing in sight. I tell u the 90MS will fail so miserably its not even funny. It has serious flaws in engine transmission and FCS system is pretty average at best. It even lacks a proper hunter killer system.


Based on what you're saying, it sounds like the army would need to engage beyond China and Ukraine. And that's costlier. Altay will be $6-7mn per unit, K2 was apparently $8mn in 2009. The army's best bet would be to develop a new platform with the aim of striking the right balance between performance and cost. The days of <$5mn tanks are over, IMHO


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## Dazzler

Mark Sien said:


> Based on what you're saying, it sounds like the army would need to engage beyond China and Ukraine. And that's costlier. Altay will be $6-7mn per unit, K2 was apparently $8mn in 2009. The army's best bet would be to develop a new platform with the aim of striking the right balance between performance and cost. The days of <$5mn tanks are over, IMHO



Thar desert doesn't allow mbts over 55 tons. Altay is a long way to go. Its too expensive and is not fit for our deserts where most battle will take place. K2 will cost us an arm and leg to buy and both pairs in maintenance. At 9$ mill a pop, good lucj with that. Oplot is still an option if problems are addressed and a good deal is offered.
MBT 3000 was a disappointment as it brought nothing new to the table as I mentioned in my earlier posts. It was just a glorified mbt 2000 with digital interior and some minor improvements.

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## Basel

Beta-Fighter said:


> I don't think so , Both tank is based on T -72 platforms. T-90MS and T-84 M.
> 
> The difference is who will make the better Armour. Most of Western Media is a part of information warfare.
> 
> 
> T-90 initially was failed but later modified to meet Indian hot condition requirement, San A/c it heated up the equipment in hot conditions , but after A/c was fitted it working perfectly.
> 
> the reason Arjun defeated the T-90 /T84 M / T-72 etc, T-series cant shoot the target while on the moving , Arjun is designed to destroyed the moving target while on the high speed also.
> 
> 
> But what the use , IA said 50 T Arjun is too heavy for equipment's to carry and for plains and channels across Punjab field.
> 
> that's why they field Arjun only in Raj sector, why PAK is going to 50 + ton tank then?



T-84 Oplot-M is based on T-80 not T-72, both are different tanks.


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## cabatli_53

Dazzler said:


> Thar desert doesn't allow mbts over 55 tons. Altay is a long way to go. Its too expensive and is not fit for our deserts where most battle will take place. K2 will cost us an arm and leg to buy and both pairs in maintenance. At 9$ mill a pop, good lucj with that. Oplot is still an option if problems are addressed and a good deal is offered.
> MBT 3000 was a disappointment as it brought nothing new to the table as I mentioned in my earlier posts. It was just a glorified mbt 2000 with digital interior and some minor improvements.




I think It is correct time to take a long road to develop a superior ~55 tonnes Pakistani MBT based on Altay experiences of Turkish engineers. We benefit from S. Korean XK-2 experience and Same project model will be benefical for Pakistani future MBT+active protection system+missile launch capability+onboard 360 degree radar coverage sensors which is going to be way superior than anything rivals have.

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## Basel

cabatli_53 said:


> I think It is correct time to take a long road to develop a superior ~55 tonnes Pakistani MBT based on Altay experiences of Turkish engineers. We benefit from S. Korean XK-2 experience and Same project model will be benefical for Pakistani future MBT+active protection system+missile launch capability+onboard 360 degree radar coverage sensors which is going to be way superior than Indian T-90's.



I agree with you that Pakistan should work with Turkey to make a new tank in class of 50 to 56 tons and if possible bring in tech where Turks are not master off or good at, and these countries can help China, S Korea, Ukraine, Europe etc.

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## thrilainmanila

Dazzler said:


> Thar desert doesn't allow mbts over 55 tons. Altay is a long way to go. Its too expensive and is not fit for our deserts where most battle will take place. K2 will cost us an arm and leg to buy and both pairs in maintenance. At 9$ mill a pop, good lucj with that. Oplot is still an option if problems are addressed and a good deal is offered.
> MBT 3000 was a disappointment as it brought nothing new to the table as I mentioned in my earlier posts. It was just a glorified mbt 2000 with digital interior and some minor improvements.


what about IFVs, why doesnt the army produce IFVs and replace AT systems like HJ-8 with more potent ones.


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## Abdullah S.

cabatli_53 said:


> I think It is correct time to take a long road to develop a superior ~55 tonnes Pakistani MBT based on Altay experiences of Turkish engineers. We benefit from S. Korean XK-2 experience and Same project model will be benefical for Pakistani future MBT+active protection system+missile launch capability+onboard 360 degree radar coverage sensors which is going to be way superior than anything rivals have.


That is actually a very good idea. We now have ample experience of developing AK series of tanks. Pakistan seems to be in a unique position to develop a modern 55 ton MBT suited to its needs with the help of Turkey, China, Ukraine etc for subsystems if need be.

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