# Poland to ban religious (Halal) slaughter of animals



## sms

Poland to ban religious slaughter of animals - Telegraph

Hmm.. too much of human rights and religious freedom, double standard of west at its best. I dare not to imagine reaction from world if same actions would have taken by a country in east.

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## A1Kaid

Who cares its still going to happen whether Poland likes it or not, that's just the reality. Apparently Poland is running into trouble with the EU Parliament because of this ban.

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## Skull and Bones

Maybe they wan't to serve meat without killing the animal or harming it in anyway.

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## Icewolf

Poland?? I thought that country was overrun by Germany??

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## sms

A1Kaid said:


> Who cares its still going to happen whether Poland likes it or not, that's just the reality. Apparently Poland is running into trouble with the EU Parliament because of this ban.



This second or third country after Sweden. It's banned there.

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## Skallagrim

Hobo1 said:


> Good move by poland , muslim style of killing animal is pure evil and causes great pain to the dying animal.



Assuming you are a Hindu how do you sacrifice the 'billy goat' aka pa(n)tha?

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## Joe Shearer

Skallagrim said:


> Assuming you are a Hindu how do you sacrifice the 'billy goat' aka pa(n)tha?



Jhatka - instantaneous death, not a lingering one.

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## forcetrip

Please get the correct information regarding this issue .. Ask anyone in the medical field what happens when you cut the jugular of a human being or an animal.. if their reply is lots of pain and suffering then i will quit eating meat..

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## Safriz

Joe Shearer said:


> Jhatka - instantaneous death, not a lingering one.



Jhatka causes almost instant cardiac arrest,and blood remains stuck in the body...You know well what kind of garbage blood carries? All sorts of.

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## Skallagrim

Joe Shearer said:


> Jhatka - instantaneous death, not a lingering one.



We're not aggressive, we do it gently.


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## KingMamba

Joe Shearer said:


> Jhatka - instantaneous death, not a lingering one.



Lingering death? Any biologist will tell you that cutting the animals jugular is a more painless death and healthier too.

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## Safriz

The last time Ban on Halal was discussed in British Parliament...The Muslim MPs showed them how much loss that will cause to farmers and meat industry as 90% of Muslims will stop eating meat all together.

State should not play God...Animals are our food as they are for any other carnivour,and what right any government has got to stop me from what i want to eat?

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## Skallagrim

Safriz said:


> if the world was left to leaf eaters like you....we would have been run over by animals long ago.



The world is nice as it is. It can't sustain more veggies nor more cow/meat eaters.


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## cyphercide

KingMamba93 said:


> Jews slaughter the same way and that is bs.*All biologists say our way of slaughter is the least painful.*



Untrue. There is sufficient evidence to the contrary.

@ Topic: 

Should the ruling be considered a problem? Many halal slaughterhouses already follow the procedure of stunning the animal first.

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## KingMamba

cyphercide said:


> Untrue. There is sufficient evidence on the contrary.
> 
> @ Topic:
> 
> Should the ruling be considered a problem? Many halal slaughterhouses already follow the procedure of stunning the animal first.



Post the specific evidence.

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## Safriz

cyphercide said:


> Untrue. There is sufficient evidence on the contrary.
> 
> @ Topic:
> 
> Should the ruling be considered a problem? Many halal slaughterhouses already follow the procedure of stunning the animal first.



stunning causes total or partial cardiac arrest and does not drain the blood...thats unhealthy..
you eat animal's poop and piss dissolved in blood...Not nice


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## Kompromat

Does the ban include Kushar too ?


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## VCheng

Safriz said:


> Jhatka causes almost instant cardiac arrest,and blood remains stuck in the body...You know well what kind of garbage blood carries? All sorts of.





Safriz said:


> stunning causes total or partial cardiac arrest and does not drain the blood...thats unhealthy..
> you eat animal's poop and piss dissolved in blood...Not nice



Incorrect.

Blood in a healthy animal is sterile, and does not carry any concentrations of poop and piss. Proper refrigeration is more important.

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## cyphercide

KingMamba93 said:


> Post the specific evidence.




Why do you think people are trying to get it banned? The opponents include animal welfare groups as well as relevant scientists. 

Animals feel the pain of religious slaughter - science-in-society - 13 October 2009 - New Scientist



> The Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC), which advises the government on how to avoid cruelty to livestock, says the way Kosher and Halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals.



BBC NEWS | UK | Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'

End 'cruel' religious slaughter, say scientists - Home News - UK - The Independent

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## Labor Minister

We will ban polish dairy and poultry products in the Kingdom.

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## gslv

forcetrip said:


> Please get the correct information regarding this issue .. Ask anyone in the medical field what happens when you cut the jugular of a human being or an animal.. if their reply is lots of pain and suffering then i will quit eating meat..


 hello, well i can say that being in medical field that u cannot simply kill an animal without hurting it. well how can one can say the animal is not feeling some sort of awkwardness while getting killed. decreased blood volume-> increased sympathetic discharge-> increased heart rate to increase delivery of oxygen. tell me how do u feel while u play football or hockey and run out of air. the animal feels the same according to science. the best way to kill an animal is u some how remove the thalamus out of animal without hurting it ( well that cant be done) or cutting the pons ( the area regulating heart and reaspiration). thats my expert opinion. BTW I am a vegetarian (no conflict of interest here) ( i am a vegetarian bcoz i don't like hurting an animal and then savor it, my family being an eastern brahmin enjoy eating meat ) .

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## KS

Well there is the jhatka meat anyway....

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## KingMamba

VCheng said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> Blood in a healthy animal is sterile, and does not carry any concentrations of poop and piss. Proper refrigeration is more important.



So are you saying eating non halal is okay??


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## gslv

sorry i forgot to add the best way of killing an animal should be injecting it with some sort of anesthesia ( anesthesia should be broken down by digestive juices of human so that there should be no residual action on human )and then draining out the blood , the animal will enter into coma and die .

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## KS

Skallagrim said:


> Assuming you are a Hindu how do you sacrifice the 'billy goat' aka pa(n)tha?


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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> Blood in a healthy animal is sterile, and does not carry any concentrations of poop and piss. Proper refrigeration is more important.



ok,so what exactly is filtered by kidneys and liver?



gslv said:


> sorry i forgot to add the best way of killing an animal should be injecting it with some sort of anesthesia ( anesthesia should be broken down by digestive juices)and then draining out the blood , the animal will enter into coma and die .



so that all who eat that meat,pass out

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## cyphercide

KingMamba93 said:


> So are you saying eating non halal is okay??




Pre-stunning the animal is a widely followed norm:


According to the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals),



> Around 90% of Halal slaughter involved pre-stunning



http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlblob&blobheader=application/pdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=RSPCABlob&blobwhere=1109267162636&ssbinary=true

In Australia's case, the National Halal Standard endorses stunning the animal before the throat is slit.



> Animals shall receive the halal cut expeditiously after stunning to ensure they do not regain consciousness. Details on acceptable methods of reversible stunning and stun-stick intervals are in the &#8220;National Animal Welfare Standards for Livestock Processing Establishments Preparing meat for Human Consumption&#8221;, Australian Meat Industry Council, 2005.



Australian Government Authorised Halal Program - guidelines for the preparation, identification, storage and certification for export of halal red meat and red meat products - Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry


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## KingMamba

cyphercide said:


> Why do you think people are trying to get it banned? The opponents include animal welfare groups as well as relevant scientists.
> 
> Animals feel the pain of religious slaughter - science-in-society - 13 October 2009 - New Scientist
> 
> 
> 
> BBC NEWS | UK | Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
> 
> End 'cruel' religious slaughter, say scientists - Home News - UK - The Independent



Hardly proof bro you gave me news from people who support the ban they have already taken a position.

When the animal is slaughtered in the Islamic or Jewish way the slaughtering is to be done by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck causing the animal&#8217;s death, but without cutting the spinal cord. The animal does not feel pain because blood flow to the nerves in the brain are stopped (includes the nerve for pain) and the blood is drained completely. The animal is already unconscious as it dies due to blood loss.

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## gslv

Safriz said:


> ok,so what exactly is filtered by kidneys and liver?
> 
> 
> 
> so that all who eat that meat,pass out


read the post again i said the anesthesia should be be degraded by human digestive juice. u can give anesthesia by parenteral routes to an animal. so read again carefully and comment.


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## KS

Skallagrim said:


> We're not aggressive, we do it gently.



Dude doing it 'gently' causes the animal more pain than doing it aggressively. 

Imagine if some one is gently nibbling at your throats versus someone who aggresively beheads you in one go. If this is the choice I am faced with, I would go for the second option. Other than a microsecond when the knife hits the back of your neck and severs your spine, you would not know what happened to you and all the thrashing is just the reflex reaction from the spine and not pain.

And unless halal method is done by a person who is really well versed in it, it is a torture for the animal. Have seen plenty guys first cutting the animal, then realizing that they have not cut the jugular properly, then searching for it and then cutting it all the while animal thrashes in pain.


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## KingMamba

cyphercide said:


> Pre-stunning the animal is a widely followed norm:
> 
> 
> According to the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals),
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlblob&blobheader=application/pdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=RSPCABlob&blobwhere=1109267162636&ssbinary=true
> 
> In Australia's case, the National Halal Standard endorses stunning animals before their throat is cut.
> 
> 
> 
> Australian Government Authorised Halal Program - guidelines for the preparation, identification, storage and certification for export of halal red meat and red meat products - Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry



Yes some endorse stunning animals because they are conforming to the society they live in but the common villager would only really have two options "jhatka" or "halal/kosher" way.


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## KS

KingMamba93 said:


> Lingering death? Any biologist will tell you that cutting the animals jugular is a more painless death and healthier too.



Thats a myth or perhaps an outdated fact. In those days when refrigerator was not there perhaps storing blood in a temperature where it would remain sterile might have been a problem and hence the need to drain it out. Not so in those days. Like you guys say, there is a scientific reason for everything specified, true, but it was according to the science of those days..not the 21st century. Moreover people from my places have many special dishes with blood alone - like blood kheema, blood poriyal etc. Hmm we are still fine and heathy.

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## KingMamba

KS said:


> Thats a myth or perhaps an outdated fact. In those days when refrigerator was not there perhaps storing blood in a temperature where it would remain sterile might have been a problem and hence the need to drain it out. Not so in those days. Like you guys say, there is a scientific reason for everything specified, true, but it was according to the science of those days..not the 21st century. Moreover people from my places have many special dishes with blood alone - like blood kheema, blood poriyal etc. Hmm we are still fine and heathy.



The method still applies today, the people from your places probably know where their live stock is coming from and how they were raised. Now in the US they pump up animals with god knows how many different types of steroids to make maximum profits so in this case caution is still advisable.


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## Safriz

cyphercide said:


> Pre-stunning the animal is a widely followed norm:
> 
> 
> According to the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals),
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlblob&blobheader=application/pdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=RSPCABlob&blobwhere=1109267162636&ssbinary=true
> 
> In Australia's case, the National Halal Standard endorses stunning animals before their throat is cut.
> 
> 
> 
> Australian Government Authorised Halal Program - guidelines for the preparation, identification, storage and certification for export of halal red meat and red meat products - Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry



studding does not guarantee the animal was alive at the time of slaughter,and its same as eating road kill


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## KingMamba

double post.


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## Safriz

cyphercide said:


> Pre-stunning the animal is a widely followed norm:
> 
> 
> According to the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals),
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlblob&blobheader=application/pdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=RSPCABlob&blobwhere=1109267162636&ssbinary=true
> 
> In Australia's case, the National Halal Standard endorses stunning animals before their throat is cut.
> 
> 
> 
> Australian Government Authorised Halal Program - guidelines for the preparation, identification, storage and certification for export of halal red meat and red meat products - Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry



studding does not guarantee the animal was alive at the time of slaughter,and its same as eating road kill



cyphercide said:


> Pre-stunning the animal is a widely followed norm:
> 
> 
> According to the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals),
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlblob&blobheader=application/pdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=RSPCABlob&blobwhere=1109267162636&ssbinary=true
> 
> In Australia's case, the National Halal Standard endorses stunning animals before their throat is cut.
> 
> 
> 
> Australian Government Authorised Halal Program - guidelines for the preparation, identification, storage and certification for export of halal red meat and red meat products - Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry



studding does not guarantee the animal was alive at the time of slaughter,and its same as eating road kill


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## VCheng

Safriz said:


> ok,so what exactly is filtered by kidneys and liver?...



Blood has no greater concentration of metabolites that are eventually excreted than the tissues through which it is running. The liver and kidneys concentrate these metabolites so that they can be converted and/or excreted. In fact, kidneys and liver themselves are halal to eat, proving that the concentration of excreted metabolites is not the issue here.



KingMamba93 said:


> So are you saying eating non halal is okay??



No. All I am saying is that assuming blood is somehow unclean is incorrect. _Zabiha _as a religious practice is perfectly fine as an article of faith.


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## Emmie

VCheng said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> Blood in a healthy animal is sterile, and does not carry any concentrations of poop and piss. Proper refrigeration is more important.



Incorrect.... Piss in blood??


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## VCheng

Emmie said:


> Incorrect.... Piss in blood??



Hey, I did not say that. I am also saying that is incorrect. Read the post I am quoting please.


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## KingMamba

VCheng said:


> Blood has no greater concentration of metabolites that are eventually excreted than the tissues through which it is running. The liver and kidneys concentrate these metabolites so that they can be converted and/or excreted. In fact, kidneys and liver themselves are halal to eat, proving that the concentration of excreted metabolites is not the issue here.
> 
> 
> 
> No. All I am saying is that assuming blood is somehow unclean is incorrect. _Zabiha _as a religious practice is perfectly fine as an article of faith.



Of course the blood would not be unclean in all cases but when you do not know where the animal is coming from and how it was raised (use of steroids etc.) than caution is advisable. They have even found adverse effects of drinking the milk of cows who were given steroids.


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## KS

KingMamba93 said:


> The method still applies today, the people from your places probably know where their live stock is coming from and how they were raised. Now in the US they pump up animals with god knows how many different types of steroids to make maximum profits so in this case caution is still advisable.



So by extension would it mean that it is ok for non-halal meat in village societies or small towns wherein the concept of feeding steroids or hormones to animals is unheard of ?

Now dont take me that I oppose halal meat or wont eat it. It does not matter to me as long as I have some meat on my plate. But I dont have this stickling to the way it is killed coz in this age of storing and processing, I dont see any sense in how killing an animal in one particular way is healthier.


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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> Blood has no greater concentration of metabolites that are eventually excreted than the tissues through which it is running. The liver and kidneys concentrate these metabolites so that they can be converted and/or excreted. In fact, kidneys and liver themselves are halal to eat, proving that the concentration of excreted metabolites is not the issue here.


Definition of blood.



> Blood is a specialized bodily fluid in animals that delivers necessary substances such as nutrients and oxygen to the cells and *transports metabolic waste products* away from those same cells.



Liver and Kidney are only filters,they dont hold the rejects,thats why halal.


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## KS

Emmie said:


> Incorrect.... Piss in blood??



Sorry for using this example - but tomorrow if you needed blood for some purpose, would you be thinking the same way - that other person's blood might contain his piss ? If not, I dont see why it should be a matter here.


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## Emmie

VCheng said:


> Hey, I did not say that. I am also saying that is incorrect. Read the post I am quoting please.



Actually I knew the context... I said *incorrect* for the blood part of your post..


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## Safriz

gslv said:


> read the post again i said the anesthesia should be be degraded by human digestive juice. u can give anesthesia by parenteral routes to an animal. so read again carefully and comment.



that will put human lives at risk,as not all people will be able to deal with the chemical.


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## KingMamba

KS said:


> So by extension would it mean that it is ok for non-halal meat in village societies or small towns wherein the concept of feeding steroids or hormones to animals is unheard of ?
> 
> Now dont take me that I oppose halal meat or wont eat it. It does not matter to me as long as I have some meat on my plate. But I dont have this stickling to the way it is killed coz in this age of storing and processing, I dont see any sense in how killing an animal in one particular way is healthier.



No, it still would not but then that would go into religious reasons instead of the scientific basis behind it. Muslims are still advised to drain the blood not because it is unclean but because it MAY be unclean on top the dwah they read as they zibah as well. It is more about caution and ritual than about anything else (of course the same applies to the Jewish method which is essentially the same). If pain is an issue for the ban than it was an unreasonable ban because as cepheride pointed out most Muslims advice stunning before hand as well if for no other reason than to put the animal rights people at peace at mind even though depriving the nerves in the brain blood removes the chance of pain outright.


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## gslv

VCheng said:


> Blood has no greater concentration of metabolites that are eventually excreted than the tissues through which it is running. The liver and kidneys concentrate these metabolites so that they can be converted and/or excreted. In fact, kidneys and liver themselves are halal to eat, proving that the concentration of excreted metabolites is not the issue here.


 well Vcheng what you are saying is also incorrect especially in case of kidney there is nothing in kidney that might store substance like urea, creatinine, drugs like tetracycline. the blood passes through glomeruli and the substance simply passes out to PCT. and in livers case is nearly same. there is simply more blood flow to liver and kidney proportion to their size. and to be said the liver contains highest amount of vitamins compared to other tissues. the livers contains enzymes like glucoronidase to carry our conversion of substance like billirubin to watersoluble one.

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## cyphercide

KingMamba93 said:


> Hardly proof bro you gave me news from people who support the ban they have already taken a position.
> 
> When the animal is slaughtered in the Islamic or Jewish way the slaughtering is to be done by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck causing the animal&#8217;s death, but without cutting the spinal cord. The animal does not feel pain because blood flow to the nerves in the brain are stopped (includes the nerve for pain) and the blood is drained completely. The animal is already unconscious as it dies due to blood loss.



Haha. Government funded studies by agriculture ministries of various nations(The UK and New Zealand) don't have agendas. Wouldn't they be shooting off their collective foot by raising a red flag on meat consumption if they did have one? 




Safriz said:


> stunning does not guarantee the animal was alive at the time of slaughter,and its same as eating road kill



From the same page;


> In instances such as &#8216;emergency kill&#8217; where non-reversible stunning methods (eg penetrative captive bolt or gun) are used, the carcass must be identified as non-halal.



http://www.daff.gov.au/aqis/export/meat/elmer-3/notices/2009/mn09-08


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## Safriz

KS said:


> Sorry for using this example - but tomorrow if you needed blood for some purpose, would you be thinking the same way - that other person's blood might contain his piss ? If not, I dont see why it should be a matter here.



the only difference here is that in blood transfusion,you dont ask the other person to "drink" blood...
A total logic fail here...
rephrase and try again.


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## Emmie

KS said:


> Sorry for using this example - but tomorrow if you needed blood for some purpose, would you be thinking the same way - that other person's blood might contain his piss ? If not, I dont see why it should be a matter here.



Actually piss is extracted from the blood, that's merely my point.. I never said there was piss in blood.


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## VCheng

Safriz said:


> Definition of blood.
> 
> 
> 
> Liver and Kidney are only filters,they dont hold the rejects,thats why halal.



Yes, blood transports many things, but the concentration is the same as other tissues. The liver and kidneys concentrate these metabolites hundreds-fold for excretion.

Thinking that blood is unclean is simply incorrect.


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## KingMamba

KS said:


> Sorry for using this example - but tomorrow if you needed blood for some purpose, would you be thinking the same way - that other person's blood might contain his piss ? If not, I dont see why it should be a matter here.



KS that is an unreasonable analogy the blood of a human is given more care than the blood of an animal. (unfortunately but true, they would not let precious human blood be as easily contaminated). Also they do outright reject some donors and you guessed it steroid users and aids virus holders top the list.


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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> Yes, blood transports many things, but the concentration is the same as other tissues. The liver and kidneys concentrate these metabolites hundreds-fold for excretion.
> 
> Thinking that blood is unclean is simply incorrect.



no.
if tissues are left with same amount of toxins as blood,tissues will die..the excretes are immediately removed via blood,and at any given moment the amount of refuse and toxins is much higher in blood than the tissues.

posting links will help.

may be one of us is missing something...


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## KingMamba

cyphercide said:


> Haha. Government funded studies by agriculture ministries of various nations(The UK and New Zealand) don't have agendas. Wouldn't they be shooting off their own foot by raising a red flag on meat consumption if they did have one?



The people facilitating the studies have an agenda not the people carrying out the studies. Whose to say they did not pick out parts of the study they found useful?? Like I said it is unreasonable to use as evidence when common sense says when you cut the jugular of any animal or human death is quick and usually painless. Of course the motion has to be swift and the person doing so would have to know what they are doing but what is expected of people living in Europe and other first class countries should not be expected of a villager living in say Somalia.


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## VCheng

gslv said:


> well Vcheng what you are saying is also incorrect especially in case of kidney there is nothing in kidney that might store substance like urea, creatinine, drugs like tetracycline. the blood passes through glomeruli and the substance simply passes out to PCT. and in livers case is nearly same. there is simply more blood flow to liver and kidney proportion to their size. and to be said the liver contains highest amount of vitamins compared to other tissues. the livers contains enzymes like glucoronidase to carry our conversion of substance like billirubin to watersoluble one.




I never said kidneys store anything. They mainly concentrate, among other things.

Trust me, I know a few things about renal and hepatic physiology too.


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## gslv

KingMamba93 said:


> KS that is an unreasonable analogy the blood of a human is given more care than the blood of an animal. (unfortunately but true, they would not let precious human blood be as easily contaminated). Also they do outright reject some donors and you guessed it steroid users and aids virus holders top the list.


steroid screening is not done in case of blood transfusion.mainly malaria, HIV, syphilis, hepatitis B virus are done. steroid can be metabolized by liver in matter of hours.

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## VCheng

Safriz said:


> no.
> if tissues are left with same amount of toxins as blood,tissues will die..the excretes are immediately removed via blood,and at any given moment the amount of refuse and toxins is much higher in blood than the tissues.
> 
> *posting links will help*



You can google all you want, but actually going through medical school will help the most.

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## KS

I repeat blood was advised to be drained in those days in the deserts because de-hydration/de-sanguination extends the shelf life of the meat and the bedouins who are nomadic by nature can sustain on the meat for extended periods till the next kill. It made perfect sense in those days, in those environs in the absence of advanced storage and refrigeration techniques.

But if meat is to be eaten fresh like in most countries - i.e., fresh from the butcher's table, then it is perfectly fine to have anything and it doesnt make a goddamn difference.

Now practising halal(kosher) as a religious practise is upto the Muslims and Jews, its their religious right....but other justifications are mostly not true, not in this age.

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## Audio

Safriz said:


> ......




Erm, i dont think cellular waste which would include material on its way from the lungs (CO2) and other molecular compounds is the same as body waste (shit).
Furthermore, i also believe i heard that when someone dies (i presume same goes for animals too) the muscles relax and all the shit comes flowing out.
Im no doctor though, just wanted to throw the above thought out.....


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## KingMamba

gslv said:


> steroid screening is not done in case of blood transfusion.mainly malaria, HIV, syphilis, hepatitis B virus are done. steroid can be metabolized by liver in matter of hours.



When I went to high school about two years ago and donated blood they asked for steroid use as well. Not necessarily because of the steroids itself but perhaps the needle used is what concerned them, nonetheless what I said still applies Human blood is safe guarded more staunchly than the blood of animals.


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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> You can google all you want, but actually going through medical school will help the most.



Not all students of a medical school are good learners...some get their degrees without learning much


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## KS

Safriz said:


> the only difference here is that in blood transfusion,you dont ask the other person to "drink" blood...
> A total logic fail here...
> rephrase and try again.



Blood goes into your system. What difference does it make ?


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## Emmie

VCheng said:


> Yes, blood transports many things, but the concentration is the same as other tissues. The liver and kidneys concentrate these metabolites hundreds-fold for excretion.
> 
> Thinking that blood is unclean is simply incorrect.



I don't know how do you regard the term unclean... Blood is unclean, unclean in the sense that it contains toxic substances which are excreted by some processes..

And, concentration is not same as in other tissues...


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## KingMamba

Audio said:


> Erm, i dont think cellular waste which would include material on its way from the lungs (CO2) and other molecular compounds is the same as body waste (shit).
> Furthermore, i also believe i heard that when someone dies (i presume same goes for animals too) the muscles relax and all the shit comes flowing out.
> Im no doctor though, just wanted to throw the above thought out.....



Yes that is what happens in the Jewish/Islamic way of slaughter by cutting the jugular the pain subsides with lack of blood flow to the brain but the heart continues to pump out the blood as long the spinal cord has not been cut. The initial spasm of the animal which people think is pain is actually the muscles relaxing as the blood flows out and in fact the animal has already fallen into a state of unconsciousness so it basically dies in its sleep.


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## KS

KingMamba93 said:


> When I went to high school about two years ago and donated blood they asked for steroid use as well. Not necessarily because of the steroids itself but perhaps the needle used is what concerned them, nonetheless what I said still applies Human blood is safe guarded more staunchly than the blood of animals.



I was in red cross and am aware of the basic pre-cautions regarding human blood. As gslv said, steroids are not asked for, unless you had taken it withing some time frame - say 24 hours or so where it is STILL in the blood stream and not digested/ejected. After some time it does not make a difference.

If you are eating it fresh from the butcher's knife it does not matter if its halal or kosher or jhatka. They are all the same.


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## VCheng

Emmie said:


> I don't know how do you regard the term unclean... Blood is unclean, unclean in the sense that it contains toxic substances which excreted by some processes..
> 
> And yes, concentration is not same as in other tissues...



Blood is unclean? So you do not believe in transfusions either?

I can accept that blood as regarded as unclean by certain faiths, but not because there is anything "dirty" about it from a scientific point of view.



Safriz said:


> Not all students of a medical school are good learners...some get their degrees without learning much



Sure. But I do know of what I speak.

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## KingMamba

KS said:


> I was in red cross and am aware of the basic pre-cautions regarding human blood. As gslv said, steroids are not asked for, unless you had taken it withing some time frame - say 24 hours or so *where it is STILL in the blood stream and no digested/ejected. After some time it does not make a difference.*



Like I told you they had a whole sheet where one had to check out whatever they had (diseases) and also what drugs they had been taking for either medical or other reasons. Maybe it was for the above bold reason though as I knew a couple of the football players who used steroids to advance their training.


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## Safriz

KS said:


> Blood goes into your system. What difference does it make ?



digestion and transfusion are totally different things...
you cant say both are the same.


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## gslv

Safriz said:


> the only difference here is that in blood transfusion,you dont ask the other person to "drink" blood...
> A total logic fail here...
> rephrase and try again.


actually speaking safriz ur body can better adapt to something that is given through enteral route than parenteral route. suppose someone takes some drugs through iv and someone same drug through orally. the bioavailibilty of most drugs are in the order
i.v> i.m> s.c> i.d> oral. so oral taking blood is less dangerous than I.v taking blood.
actually i feel vampire women are sexy.

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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> Sure. But I do know of what I speak.



ok doctor cheng 

Anyway..Isha time in this part of the world...Have to take kiddies to the mosque so that they remember they are Muslims 
See yaz later....Infidals and leaf eaters 
In the mean time..Dr.Cheng will keep you entertained..


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## Emmie

VCheng said:


> Blood is unclean? So you do not believe in transfusions either?
> 
> I can accept that blood as regarded as unclean by certain faiths, but not because there is anything "dirty" about it from a scientific point of view.


My argument had nothing to do with any faith, mind it. Blood is unclean, say hello to a patient having renal failure or a patient having cirrhosis..


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## VCheng

Safriz said:


> ok doctor cheng
> 
> Anyway..Isha time in this part of the world...Have to take kiddies to the mosque so that they remember they are Muslims
> See yaz later....Infidals and leaf eaters
> In the mean time..Dr.Cheng will keep you entertained..



Actually, Doctor Doctor Cheng. 

I respect and commend your right and efforts to train your children in the beliefs that are important to you. Totally.


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## KS

KingMamba93 said:


> No, it still would not but then that would go into religious reasons instead of the scientific basis behind it. Muslims are still advised to drain the blood not because it is unclean but because it MAY be unclean on top the dwah they read as they zibah as well..



Religious reasons are ok with me. If people say we do it for religious reasons upfront, then its their prerogative since we also sacrifice animals to gods. But saying we are doing it for lessening the animal's pain, for some magical healthy reasons is something I wont agree coz halal does not lessen the animal's pain but instead prolongs the animal's torture in the hands of some one who could not properly located the jugular or the modern day storing techniques takes care of the bacteria which might grow in the blood at room temperature.


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## VCheng

Emmie said:


> My argument had nothing to do with any faith, mind it. Blood is unclean, say hello to a patient having renal failure or a patient having cirrhosis..



I fail to see the logic of what you are trying to say. Please explain a bit further.

Animals dying of renal or liver failure are not halal either.


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## KS

Emmie said:


> My argument had nothing to do with any faith, mind it. Blood is unclean, say hello to a patient having renal failure or a patient having cirrhosis..



So why is "unclean blood" again transfused into the patient ?


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## Emmie

VCheng said:


> I fail to see the logic of what you are trying to say. Please explain a bit further.



It's not logic, it's purely based on human physiology. If blood was not unclean then there wasn't any need of kidney, altho kidney has other important functions too..

Urea for instance is what we want to excrete at any cost..

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## VCheng

Emmie said:


> It's not logic, it's purely based on human physiology. If blood was not unclean then there wasn't any need of kidney, altho kidney has other important functions too..
> 
> Urea for instance is what we want to excrete at any cost..



I do understand physiology quite well actually.

Your religious beliefs are to be respected, but your attempts to provide them with a scientific rationale are totally incorrect.

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## Emmie

KS said:


> So why is "unclean blood" again transfused into the patient ?



Because receiver's organ can fairly detoxify harmful agents,* infectious agents are excluded*..

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## cyphercide

KingMamba93 said:


> The people facilitating the studies have an agenda not the people carrying out the studies. Whose to say they did not pick out parts of the study they found useful?? Like I said it is unreasonable to use as evidence when common sense says when you cut the jugular of any animal or human death is quick and usually painless. Of course the motion has to be swift and the person doing so would have to know what they are doing but what is expected of people living in Europe and other first class countries should not be expected of a villager living in say Somalia.



Again, this wasn't a private study to have it's findings diluted by funding. Nobody needs to 'facilitate' a government report for a potentially worthless result unless you're working the ''World is against us poor Muslims'' angle. 

While you are free to believe whatever black magic you choose to, kindly refrain from making audacious statements like ''All biologists endorse it to be true''. Common sense isn't so common after all!!!

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## VCheng

Emmie said:


> Because receiver's organ can fairly detoxify harmful agents,* infectious agents are excluded*..




By the same logic, blood can be digested as well, so what is your point?


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## Emmie

VCheng said:


> I do understand physiology quite well actually.
> 
> Your religious beliefs are to be respected, but your attempts to provide them with a scientific rationale are totally incorrect.



Aww, I clearly stated earlier it's not about belief or a logic...

Actually you should grab more about physiology before you declare my reasons invalid. It's not only about knowing anatomical position of foramen magnum, I wonder if you remember that?



VCheng said:


> By the same logic, blood can be digested as well, so what is your point?



Blood can be digested? Are you out of your mind?


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## VCheng

Emmie said:


> Aww, I clearly stated earlier it's not about belief or a logic...
> 
> Actually you should grab more about physiology before you declare my reasons invalid. It's not only about knowing anatomical position of foramen magnum, I wonder if you remember that?



Actually, that was more to do with where the spinal cord starts. 

And I do know what I am talking about.


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## VCheng

Emmie said:


> A...........
> Blood can be digested? Are you out of your mind?



Ever heard of black pudding?

Black pudding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, blood is digestible. I am not out of my mind, and you are merely ignorant.

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## gslv

Emmie said:


> Aww, I clearly stated earlier it's not about belief or a logic...
> 
> Actually you should grab more about physiology before you declare my reasons invalid. It's not only about knowing anatomical position of foramen magnum, I wonder if you remember that?
> 
> 
> 
> Blood can be digested? Are you out of your mind?


blood can be perfectly digested except the iron containing heme. heme cannot be absorbed fully bcoz there is limit to iron transporter on intestinal surfece.


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## Emmie

VCheng said:


> Actually, that was more to do with where the spinal cord starts.
> 
> And I do know what I am talking about.



I hope you don't suffer cofabulation. 

Do you have access to Kaplan preparatory books or vids? Fischer and Barone are worth watching.



VCheng said:


> Ever heard of black pudding?
> 
> Black pudding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Yes, blood is digestible. I am not out of my mind, and you are merely ignorant.



Heard about Melena ?

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## gslv

Emmie said:


> I hope you don't suffer cofabulation.
> 
> Do you have access to Kaplan preparatory books or vids? Fischer and Barone are worth watching.
> 
> 
> 
> Heard about Melena ?


melena only constitutes feces+ unabsorbed iron in ferric or ferrous (i cant remember). other than that blood is fully absorbed.

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## Emmie

gslv said:


> blood can be perfectly digested except the iron containing heme. heme cannot be absorbed fully bcoz there is limit to iron transporter on intestinal surfece.



Not perfectly..


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## VCheng

Emmie said:


> I hope you don't suffer cofabulation.
> 
> Do you have access to Kaplan preparatory books or vids? Fischer and Barone are worth watching.
> 
> 
> 
> Heard about Melena ?



Actually, the word is coNfabulation, not cofabulation. And it is my time to write books, not read them. 

Melena has nothing to do with my point.

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## Emmie

gslv said:


> melena only constitutes feces+ unabsorbed iron in ferric or ferrous (i cant remember). other than that blood is fully absorbed.



Could you explain protiens part of blood?


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## gslv

Emmie said:


> Not perfectly..


how so? if u know tell me. blood contains plasma and blood cells. plasma contains plasma proteins+coagulating factors like fibrin , factor X etc. and in cells there is nothing except hemoglobin that cannot be absorbed perfectly . hemoglobin = heme + globin. globin is fully protein compound that is absorbed fully. and heme is the only part that is not absorbed. if heme is absorbed fully and u drink blood u will suffer from hemochromatosis in few days.

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## Emmie

VCheng said:


> Actually, the word is coNfabulation, not cofabulation. And it is my time to write books, not read them.
> 
> Melena has nothing to do with my point.



Lols, face saving... Good!


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## VCheng

Emmie said:


> Lols, face saving... Good!



Like I said before, I fully respect your religious beliefs, but your scientific knowledge has much to progress.


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## Emmie

VCheng said:


> Like I said before, I fully respect your religious beliefs, but your scientific knowledge has much to progress.



Lol..... 

I am not here to prove my medical knowledge...


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## VCheng

Emmie said:


> Lol.....
> 
> I am not here to prove my medical knowledge...



Good Luck in your education!


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## Emmie

gslv said:


> how so? if u know tell me. blood contains plasma and blood cells. plasma contains plasma proteins+coagulating factors like fibrin , factor X etc. and in cells there is nothing except hemoglobin that cannot be absorbed perfectly . hemoglobin = heme + globin. globin is fully protein compound that is absorbed fully. and heme is the only part that is not absorbed. if heme is absorbed fully and u drink blood u will suffer from hemochromatosis in few days.



Explain, forget about constituents of blood..



VCheng said:


> Good Luck in your education!



You are bit late, I am done with my education and that too medical..


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## VCheng

Emmie said:


> ...........
> You are bit late, I am done with my education and that too medical..



Unlike you, I am still learning. Education never stops, but if you are done, I can only pity your patients.

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## gslv

Emmie said:


> Explain, forget about constituents of blood..


 plz tell me what should i explain. i already explained all through my prvs posts.


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## Emmie

VCheng said:


> Unlike you, I am still learning. Education never stops, but if you are done, I can only pity your patients.



Whatever.... I am happy that you are happy


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## Kompromat

@VCheng you are bleeding too much energy for nothing

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## VCheng

Aeronaut said:


> @VCheng you are bleeding too much energy for nothing



Understood Sir, understood. 

(can't post an image here per @Zakii, but I do have a great one in mind. )

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## gslv

thats very true aeronaut.You can't wake up a person who is pretending to be asleep.


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## KingMamba

KS said:


> Religious reasons are ok with me. If people say we do it for religious reasons upfront, then its their prerogative since we also sacrifice animals to gods. But saying we are doing it for lessening the animal's pain, for some magical healthy reasons is something I wont agree coz halal does not lessen the animal's pain but instead prolongs the animal's torture in the hands of some one who could not properly located the jugular or the modern day storing techniques takes care of the bacteria which might grow in the blood at room temperature.



Besides the initial pain which occurs in all matters of slaughter I have pointed out that there is no other pain. Most butchers actually know what they are doing although yeah like I also mentioned expecting some ghoun wala to know what he is doing is perhaps unreasonable.


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## forcetrip

I could understand how some people would be disgusted eating an animal that has been murdered. I guess we have been numbed to that particular problem since birth and therefore enjoy eating meat by suggesting that is that animals role in life for us by the higher power. Either way I am not a stickler for Jhatka or halal because statistically I haven't heard of any problems with either to raise an alarm. But medically and common sense wise cutting the supply of blood to the brain is the best way to cause the animal less pain. It also has to make financial sense to the rest as well, giving it pain killers and other such gimmicks is just a luxury half this planet can not indulge in. Either way I thoroughly enjoyed my whoppers for quite a few years during school.. and that to for just a dollar!!

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## Joe Shearer

VCheng said:


> Actually, Doctor Doctor Cheng.
> 
> I respect and commend your right and efforts to train your children in the beliefs that are important to you. Totally.



Off topic: wouldn't you rather that children were not indoctrinated in religion and were given a right to choose when they came of age?

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## gslv

Joe Shearer said:


> Off topic: wouldn't you rather that children were not indoctrinated in religion and were given a right to choose when they came of age?


 man you now disturbed hornet nest.


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## SQ8

I cant see the problem with Halal meat and not having similar issue with traditional Kosher meat( shechita)
but then again.. Muslims < Jews to the rest of the world.. and Poland cant be expected to see this.


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## SQ8

Joe Shearer said:


> Off topic: wouldn't you rather that children were not indoctrinated in religion and were given a right to choose when they came of age?



It is an interesting argument.. and is off topic.
But a counter would be.. that why are children taught to use forks and knives/ or use the bathroom/ or wear clothes ..etc
All those are technically indoctrinated.. are they not?
The reason they are indoctrinated is because we would wish our children to follow the same standards, same values(which our religion teaches us) that we have in life...Once they grow old, learn about the world.. be able to make choices after they are adults.. they are free.
If they find that they found the some values of the religion useful, but not the faith..they may leave it.(which is why I take exception to the difference between born Muslims and converted ones.. the latter gaining more of my respect)
Otherwise man would get nowhere,neither education nor society would get nowhere .. if everybody was left to start out like cavemen.


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## VCheng

Joe Shearer said:


> Off topic: wouldn't you rather that children were not indoctrinated in religion and were given a right to choose when they came of age?




I recently posted an article from _The Economist_ where the assumption that children have the religion of their parents was described as challengeable.

That thread was closed.

I got the hint.


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## Emmie

gslv said:


> plz tell me what should i explain. i already explained all through my prvs posts.



Well, I was referring to stuff in blood not needed by the body..

Never thought much about blood digestion, will read related stuff..

Thanks BTW.


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## SQ8

Before my fellow Musalman Pakistanis get all gung-ho on the Polish and start abusing them..
remember that it was MANY of these very Poles that built up the foundations of our Military and Scientific societies including our beloved Airforce.


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## gslv

Emmie said:


> Well, I was referring to stuff in blood not needed by the body..
> 
> Never thought much about blood digestion, will read related stuff..
> 
> Thanks BTW.


once my seminar topic was melena. thats why i am somewhat know a bit about these stuffs. 
U R Welcome btw.


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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> By the same logic, blood can be digested as well, so what is your point?



Religious constrains are there for a reason...
Otherwise it will be a runaway train of human desires and fetish..
Such as this.
The effects of drinking BLOOD? - Yahoo! Answers



Oscar said:


> Before my fellow Musalman Pakistanis get all gung-ho on the Polish and start abusing them..
> remember that it was MANY of these very Poles that built up the foundations of our Military and Scientific societies including our beloved Airforce.



and that Polish Girls are hot,and most poles are church goers...which is now rare in Europe..


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## Kompromat

Joe Shearer said:


> Off topic: wouldn't you rather that children were not indoctrinated in religion and were given a right to choose when they came of age?




Historically, parents have raised their kids according to their beliefs and life experiences. I, highly doubt what "seemingly" is an independent approach towards grooming kids may turn out to be next to impossible. Unless they are taken away from their parents and raised in an incubator.


----------



## Joe Shearer

Oscar said:


> It is an interesting argument.. and is off topic.
> But a counter would be.. that why are children taught to use forks and knives/ or use the bathroom/ or wear clothes ..etc
> All those are technically indoctrinated.. are they not?
> The reason they are indoctrinated is because we would wish our children to follow the same standards, same values(which our religion teaches us) that we have in life...Once they grow old, learn about the world.. be able to make choices after they are adults.. they are free.
> If they find that they found the some values of the religion useful, but not the faith..they may leave it.(which is why I take exception to the difference between born Muslims and converted ones.. the latter gaining more of my respect)
> Otherwise man would get nowhere,neither education nor society would get nowhere .. if everybody was left to start out like cavemen.



This is off-topic, as I acknowledged and as you pointed out, so in propriety should stop. Not in the spirit of having the last word - I am willing to continue elsewhere - teaching my child how to use a knife and fork, or the numbers tables, or toilet habits are socially normative, and not ethically or morally normative. These practices are not divisive, not unless the person concerned is an absolute idiot, and can be clearly seen to be practices that enable society to get along.

Religion is rather different, don't you agree? Far from being inclusive, it is divisive; merely the fact that two sets of people are religious is insufficient to promote bonds of understanding between them, unless it happens to be the same religion.

Our daughter went to the local Krishna temple, to both Anglican and Roman Catholic Churches and learnt about Islam from a friend whom we bullied into cooperating. At the end of the day, it was her choice, and we are both of us very happy and comfortable that she chose on her own, not due to habit or due to compulsion or due to an uneasy feeling that she would be letting the side down by doing anything else.



Aeronaut said:


> Historically, parents have raised their kids according to their beliefs and life experiences. I, highly doubt what "seemingly" is an independent approach towards grooming kids is next to impossible. Unless they are taken away from their parents and raised in an incubator.



As, indeed, was done to the children of an Indian couple in Norway recently. For reasons that might in the extreme intersect with this side-discussion.

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## gslv

Joe Shearer said:


> This is off-topic, as I acknowledged and as you pointed out, so in propriety should stop. Not in the spirit of having the last word - I am willing to continue elsewhere - teaching my child how to use a knife and fork, or the numbers tables, or toilet habits are socially normative, and not ethically or morally normative. These practices are not divisive, not unless the person concerned is an absolute idiot, and can be clearly seen to be practices that enable society to get along.
> 
> Religion is rather different, don't you agree? Far from being inclusive, it is divisive; merely the fact that two sets of people are religious is insufficient to promote bonds of understanding between them, unless it happens to be the same religion.
> 
> Our daughter went to the local Krishna temple, to both Anglican and Roman Catholic Churches and learnt about Islam from a friend whom we bullied into cooperating. At the end of the day, it was her choice, and we are both of us very happy and comfortable that she chose on her own, not due to habit or due to compulsion or due to an uneasy feeling that she would be letting the side down by doing anything else.
> 
> 
> 
> As, indeed, was done to the children of an Indian couple in Norway recently. For reasons that might in the extreme intersect with this side-discussion.



man, according to me naturalism with a tinge of theism is best way to live . u respect every creature around you and can also believe in Almighty if u want.


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## KS

Oscar said:


> I cant see the problem with Halal meat and not having similar issue with traditional Kosher meat( shechita)
> but then again.. Muslims < Jews to the rest of the world.. and Poland cant be expected to see this.



I guess no halal means no kosher too.

Do Jews indulge in sacrificial killing as well ?


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## livingdead

I feel guilty everytime I eat halal meat.


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## VCheng

Safriz said:


> Religious constrains are there for a reason...
> Otherwise it will be a runaway train of human desires and fetish..
> Such as this.
> The effects of drinking BLOOD? - Yahoo! Answers...........



Agreed, but please do consider that *religious constraints, reasonable or not, apply only to the followers of that religion*. As long as others have the right to choose whatever religious belief they wish to follow, then I have no problems at all.

Trying to justify religious beliefs on scientific grounds is simply pointless.

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## Emmie

Agreed... The way you came earlier was incorrect.. Denouncement of religious belief on scientific grounds is pointless too.


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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> Agreed, but please do consider that *religious constraints, reasonable or not, apply only to the followers of that religion*. As long as others have the right to choose whatever religious belief they wish to follow, then I have no problems at all.
> 
> Trying to justify religious beliefs on scientific grounds is simply pointless.


But some things are thought to be wrong unanimously by all or most religions/non-religions...
Denying religion in general has caused the down hill spiral of values which have deteriorated over the years in the name of modernization.
Previously women were oppressed,now men are oppressed.In case of Divorce she walks away with half of His belongings..She can torment him and stalk him and abuse him..But if he does the same,he goes to jail.
I rather stick to a tried and tested system,my religion,instead of thinking of new ways of life....

Not eveything in religion can be proved by Science as science in non-constant and religion is a constant..
But some parts of religion do comply with Present day science...


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## Safriz

KS said:


> I guess no halal means no kosher too.
> 
> Do Jews indulge in sacrificial killing as well ?


exactly as muslims...
no difference


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## cyphercide

hinduguy said:


> I feel guilty everytime I eat halal meat.




What for? Petition for non-Halal options if it bothers you that much. Nobody should be forced to partake in any religious custom against their will.





Emmie said:


> Agreed... The way you came earlier was incorrect.. *Denouncement of religious belief on scientific grounds is pointless too.*




I'd argue that it's ludicrous than it being pointless. It's the equivalent of discussing the physics behind The Green Lantern's ring. Although it is humorous how people who cling to religion chop up and embrace science in fragments(how people are claiming the Halal technique is scientifically sound) in an attempt to prove it right and then reject broad scientific consensus like evolution which go against their religious dogma.

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## livingdead

cyphercide said:


> What for? Petition for non-Halal options if it bothers you that much. Nobody should be forced to partake in any religious custom against their will.


I am in UK and its not always possible to eat non halal. I am against banning halal though.


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## Safriz

hinduguy said:


> I feel guilty everytime I eat halal meat.



You dont have to eat Halal meat...and you are not fed halal meat by lying to you...
Non hala meat is available in abundance here,although a bit expensive than Halal meat..
Plus all the shops,restaurants,Take aways who sell halal meat,display on their shop windows in big letters.
There is a large number of Reataurants and meat outlets selling Halal food,but saying that the more you go for animal rights,the more expensive the meat/Dairy/Poultry product gets,as animal rights cost money,which people have to pay for whether they agree to it or not..
For example free range eggs are more expensive than Normal eggs....Both taste exactly the same.
Non-Muslim British Public in general just want good affordable meat and rare not interested in Halal,non halal issue...In fact many people prefer Halal meat as its less red and smells less.
So your complaint is out of place and you should try to arrange non halal meat for yourself,same as we always arrange Halal meat for ourselves and never eat non-halal meat..Likewise if you feel guilty,never again eat Halal meat.


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## A1Kaid

Why does the title specify "Halal" when they are banning Kosher slaughter of animals as well.

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## Safriz

I am in UK and it ALWAYS possible for me to get Halal meat because i go to shoips selling Halal,likewise you should ALWAYS arrange non-halal meat fort yourself...
I dont want to impose my Halal on you..You or anybody else shouldnt impose Non-halal on me,fair game.

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## cyphercide

hinduguy said:


> I am in UK and its not always possible to eat non halal. I am against banning halal though.



Try the suggestion box. There's always a choice.

Halal and kosher meat should not be slipped in to food chain, says minister - Home News - UK - The Independent


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## Safriz

A1Kaid said:


> Why does the title specify "Halal" when they are banning Kosher slaughter of animals as well.



Because its all being do=ne out of hate against Muslims not jews,or may be both.


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## livingdead

Safriz said:


> You dont have to eat Halal meat...and you are not fed halal meat by lying to you...
> Non hala meat is available in abundance here,although a bit expensive than Halal meat..
> Plus all the shops,restaurants,Take aways who sell halal meat,display on their shop windows in big letters.
> There is a large number of Reataurants and meat outlets selling Halal food,but saying that the more you go for animal rights,the more expensive the meat/Dairy/Poultry product gets,as animal rights cost money,which people have to pay for whether they agree to it or not..
> For example free range eggs are more expensive than Normal eggs....Both taste exactly the same.
> Non-Muslim British Public in general just want good affordable meat and rare not interested in Halal,non halal issue...In fact many people prefer Halal meat as its less red and smells less.
> So your complaint is out of place and you should try to arrange non halal meat for yourself,same as we always arrange Halal meat for ourselves and never eat non-halal meat..Likewise if you feel guilty,never again eat Halal meat.



I did not complain, I just said sometime I eat and feel guilty. Obviously my guilt is not enough to stop me from eating it altogether (In some situations)



Safriz said:


> Because its all being do=ne out of hate against Muslims not jews,or may be both.


Not every opposition to islamic practice come from hatred towards muslims. Sometimes you should hear others view, it might be genuine.

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## A1Kaid

Why is there even a 9 page thread, this isn't an issue, hardly any Muslims live in Poland but Jews yes, nobody really cares. None of the members here live in Poland nobody is affected by this ban. So why don't people just shut up and get on with your lives.

You people do this kind of behavior every time some country bans something remotely related to you. On top of that you have instigators from other countries hyping this issue just as their nations' media would do.

Mods close this thread.

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## livingdead

A1Kaid said:


> Why is there even a 9 page thread, this isn't an issue, hardly any Muslims live in Poland but Jews yes, nobody really cares. None of the members here live in Poland nobody is affected by this ban. So why don't people just shut up and get on with your lives.
> 
> You people do this kind of behavior every time some country bans something remotely related to you. On top of that you have instigators from other countries hyping this issue just as their nations' media would do.
> 
> Mods close this thread.



Although it does not directly affect us, it is an important issue in many european countries. Many of our members are living in europe.


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## A1Kaid

hinduguy said:


> Although it does not directly affect us, it is an important issue in many european countries. Many of our members are living in europe.



Most members are not affected by this in their part of Europe, and if those members are affected they need to contact their Government not make threads or posts about it here which will do nothing. Get the point?

Nobody cares about this issue really so best to close the thread.


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## VCheng

Safriz said:


> ........
> I rather stick to a tried and tested system,my religion,instead of thinking of new ways of life....
> 
> Not eveything in religion can be proved by Science as science in non-constant and religion is a constant..
> But some parts of religion do comply with Present day science...




I respect your right to follow your beliefs as you wish, as long as you respect other's rights to believe as they wish as well.

All science and and all religions change with time - including Islam. The rates of evolution of knowledge and thought are different for different cultures and societies, but they all change with time.

And finally, as I have said many times, it is simply pointless to claim scientific bases for religious beliefs.

(Please do not get angry. I am a Muslim too.)

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## SQ8

KS said:


> I guess no halal means no kosher too.
> 
> Do Jews indulge in sacrificial killing as well ?




Yup..during Passover.
Korban Pesach


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## Cloakedvessel

A1Kaid said:


> On top of that you have instigators from other countries hyping this issue just as their nations' media would do.



I agree. It's unnecessarily being hyped by outsiders mostly. I have seen outrageous statements that range from reminding everyone that Poland is the country where 3 million Jews were exterminated to conspiracy theories about how the Poles want to bully the Muslim population, which is by the way almost non-existent in the country.

While the court was convened after petitioning by animal right groups regarding the methods of religious slaughtering. A court ruling that does not seem to have a legal standing for that matter.

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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> I respect your right to follow your beliefs as you wish, as long as you respect other's rights to believe as they wish as well.
> 
> All science and and all religions change with time - including Islam. The rates of evolution of knowledge and thought are different for different cultures and societies, but they all change with time.
> 
> And finally, as I have said many times, it is simply pointless to claim scientific bases for religious beliefs.
> 
> (Please do not get angry. I am a Muslim too.)



Now come on Vcheng...
I know you are a muslim too. But since when you started caring if people get angry 
Vcheng poison pen,thats how most of us like you.
Kindly dont change that.
And yes i agree respect goes both ways,as long as it does not interfere with my rights i can respect all religions,non-religion.

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## A1Kaid

hinduguy said:


> I feel guilty everytime I eat halal meat.




You shouldn't eat halal meat it can make you turn Muslim. Something you hate.

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## VCheng

Safriz said:


> Now come on Vcheng...
> I know you are a muslim too. But since when you started caring if people get angry
> Vcheng *poison pen*,thats how most of us like you.
> Kindly dont change that.
> And yes i agree respect goes both ways,as long as it does not interfere with my rights i can respect all religions,non-religion.




*Poison Pen*? Aw, I am hurt by that. 

How about the Truthful Keyboard?

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## livingdead

A1Kaid said:


> You shouldn't eat halal meat it can make you turn Muslim. *Something you hate*.


I never said or tried to give any such impression. Its entirely your fault for thinking so.


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## sur

sms said:


> Poland to ban religious slaughter of animals - Telegraph
> 
> Hmm.. too much of human rights and religious freedom, double standard of west at its best. I dare not to imagine reaction from world if same actions would have taken by a country in east.


Muslims have takes Halal meat issue to too extreme. Most of muslims just follow band-wagon without bothering to study WHAT the requirements to halal actually ARE!!! 

2 things are required; severing of blood vessels to allow the blood to flow & taking the name of God Almighty. The way they slaughter in West (which I have seen) they sever the neck & let the blood flow. So that one condition fulfilled. As to 2nd condition, Hadees below make a permission that we can say name of God *even after it meal is prepared*. The video posted also says the same.

One misconception that is common is "Jhatkay Walaa Meat". They think that animals are killed by striking them on head etc. Which is wrong. They stun the animal by hitting it on back of neck/head & presume that in doing so animal will NOT feel the pain of slaughter that much. Animal does NOT die, in fact when I saw them doing it, animal kept standing on its legs & was then taken to a rotating cage where 4 animals were trapped & then their throats were slit with a rotating disc-blade. & Blood was allowed to flow. *Spine was NOT severed*, only the neck blood-vessels were.
=
=

Watch this video & read Ahadees below. Even thou everyone in West might NOT be Ahl-e-Kitaab BUT method of slaughter is that of Ahl-e-Kitaab. So meat prepared in west would be considered food of Ahl-e-Kitaab.
=
=
Q&A: Are McDonald's and Burger King Halal? - Jamal Badawi - YouTube
=
=


=
=
*Abu Dawood:Book 9, Number 2823:*
Narrated 'A'ishah: (the narrator Musa did not mention the words "from 'A'ishah in his worsion from Hammad, and al-Qa'nabi also did not mention the words "from 'A'ishah" in his version from Malik): They (the people) said: Apostle of Allah, there are people here, recent converts from polytheism, *who bring us meat and we do not know whether or not they mentioned Allah's name over it. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Mention Allah's name and eat.*

*Abu Dawood:9:2811:*
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:The verse: "So eat of (meats) on which Allah's name hath been pronounced (Qur'an vi. 118)" and the verse: "Eat not of (meats) on which Allah's name hath not been pronounced (Qur'an v. 6)," were abrogated, meaning an exception was made therein by the verse: *"The food of the people of the Book is lawful unto you and yours lawful unto them. (Qur'an vi. 121)"*


*Dawud :: Book 15 : Hadith 2820*
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
Ibn Isa added: (Ibn Abbas) and AbuHurayrah said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) forbade the devil's sacrifice. AbuIsa added in his version: This refers to the slaughtered animal whose skin cut off, and is then *left to die without its jugular veins being severed*.

*Sunan Abu Dawood 9:*2812-15, 2820, 2849-51

*Quran:*5:3-4, 6:118,121,145.

=
=

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## sms

All of you may not have noticed ... the rulings says that law of Poland prohibits killing of animal by Halal method only if animal is conscious. I think it is till legal to make animal unconscious and kill them by the method it need to be.

Does this requirement violates Islamic or Jews religious requirements?


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## Joe Shearer

Safriz said:


> But some things are thought to be wrong unanimously by all or most religions/non-religions...
> Denying religion in general has caused the down hill spiral of values which have deteriorated over the years in the name of modernization.
> Previously women were oppressed,now men are oppressed.In case of Divorce she walks away with half of His belongings..She can torment him and stalk him and abuse him..But if he does the same,he goes to jail.
> I rather stick to a tried and tested system,my religion,instead of thinking of new ways of life....
> 
> Not eveything in religion can be proved by Science as science in non-constant and religion is a constant..
> But some parts of religion do comply with Present day science...



I can understand your justification of halal on the grounds of religious belief, but your present position justifying religious belief because of a preposterous male chauvinist point of view is simply beyond comprehension, indeed, beyond comment. How primitive can one get? Tried and tested system? Tried for what, and tested for what? Are we discussing the comfort and fit of a favourite pair of slippers here? 

I hope and wish, being unable to pray, that you have a daughter, or daughters, and that they grow up to be strident feminists (not the other, gentle kind) and put you in your place good and proper. 

I also hope you will keep this forum posted on the narrative of your return to the tents and woven camel hair existence that you so sincerely seem to seek. A wide array of fans will await these tellings of your saga with bated breath.

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## Safriz

Joe Shearer said:


> I can understand your justification of halal on the grounds of religious belief, but your present position justifying religious belief because of a preposterous male chauvinist point of view is simply beyond comprehension, indeed, beyond comment. How primitive can one get? Tried and tested system? Tried for what, and tested for what? Are we discussing the comfort and fit of a favourite pair of slippers here?
> 
> I hope and wish, being unable to pray, that you have a daughter, or daughters, and that they grow up to be strident feminists (not the other, gentle kind) and put you in your place good and proper.
> 
> I also hope you will keep this forum posted on the narrative of your return to the tents and woven camel hair existence that you so sincerely seem to seek. A wide array of fans will await these tellings of your saga with bated breath.



you took it too personal.......


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## Joe Shearer

Safriz said:


> you took it too personal.......



No, no, no, by the hair on my chinny-chin-chin. Critical, deploring, but not unfriendly, and not personal. On my honour.

The thought of you in robes in front of your tent, moodily flipping through your copy of the Najd News does have a certain illicit charm.

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## third eye

sur said:


> Muslims have takes Halal meat issue to too extreme. Most of muslims just follow band-wagon without bothering to study WHAT the requirements to halal actually ARE!!!
> 
> 2 things are required; severing of blood vessels to allow the blood to flow & taking the name of God Almighty. The way they slaughter in West (which I have seen) they sever the neck & let the blood flow. So that one condition fulfilled. As to 2nd condition, Hadees below make a permission that we can say name of God *even after it meal is prepared*. The video posted also says the same.
> 
> One misconception that is common is "*Jhatkay Walaa Meat". They think that animals are killed by striking them on head etc. Which is wrong. They stun the animal by hitting it on back of neck/head & presume that in doing so animal will NOT feel the pain of slaughter that much.* Animal does NOT die, in fact when I saw them doing it, animal kept standing on its legs & was then taken to a rotating cage where 4 animals were trapped & then their throats were slit with a rotating disc-blade. & Blood was allowed to flow. *Spine was NOT severed*, only the neck blood-vessels were.
> =
> =



A very interesting counter point. I wonder what your fellow Muslims feel on this.

If this were right then the problem may appear to be solved.

I have a point with regard to the part in bold above on ' Jhatka Meat'.

I am not sure which place you refer to but in India there are two distinct types of meat sellers - Halal & Jhatka.

Halal needs no description, as regards Jhatka the head is severed in one stroke and blood allowed to flow. I have not seen or heard of any method where an animal is stunned by any means & then slaughtered.

In fact during dusherra when animals are slaughtered not being able to sever the head in one swoop is loss of face.

What I found interesting in what you wrote is that the prerequisite of severing of blood vessels & reciting the name of god are met in the 'Jhatka' way also.

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## Developereo

As a number of people have noted, we need to understand the rationale behind halal/kosher. As I understand it, the main rationale is to minimize pain to the animal.

The religious method is remarkably scientific in that it recognized, millenia ago, that the key sensory organ is the brain, not the body itself, so the best way to minimize pain is to put the brain out of commission as soon as possible. Given the technology of the past, and compared to contemporary methods, the best way to do that was to slit the jugular and drain the blood.

The caveat here is that it _looks_ more cruel, and there are more effective modern ways to dull the brain. Therefore, a stunning bolt, after saying the prayer, and before slitting the throat, should keep all sides happy.

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## sur

third eye said:


> ...as regards Jhatka the head is severed in one stroke and blood allowed to flow. I have not seen or heard of any method where an animal is stunned by any means & then slaughtered....


Place I referred to was in USA. 
& as to ur question; I am not quite sure what if head is severed altogether!!! As far as my reading of Islamic texts (Quran/Hadees) is concerned, they do NOT specify whether spine should be left intact or not. All they say is that* "Blood should be allowed to flow" i.e.* animal should *NOT* have died *natural death* from some disease etc nor be killed from* strangulation* or *dropping from a height* or as one of the Hadees that I quoted says some ppl used to kill animal by* stripping its skin without slaughtering* it. etc. I have read quite a bit of Hadees on this topic but didn't come across any that said anything about severing or not severing the vertebral column (spine). But I am not an expert & might have missed something...!!!



Developereo said:


> ...As I understand it, the main rationale is to minimize pain to the animal. The religious method is remarkably scientific in that it recognized, millenia ago, that the *key sensory organ is the brain, not the body itself*, so the best way to minimize pain is to* put the brain out of commission as soon as possible*...


I agree. Many ppl might have experienced "black-outs" as they stand-up from lying or sitting position; whereby their vision goes black & also feel numbfor few seconds before they gain sight & feelings back. It happens with *ONLY 20% reduction of blood flow to brain*. While in islamic style slaughter almost 100% of blood flow to brain is halted. So animal stops to be conscious of ANYTHING going on with it. Jerking of limbs is merely a *spinal*-reflex, without the brain aware of any pain.

Once I dropped an iron window that was waiting to be installed in our house that was under construction. I got a deep cut on my toe, but did NOT feel any pain until ~10-20 seconds. In fact for ~5 seconds i wasn't even aware that it dropped on my toe & was just worrying about dropped window, until I saw my toe bleeding. Then I carefully walked to my parents with that injury still without feeling any pain. Only after I sat down the pain started. 

Point is if animal is slaughtered with a *sharp knife* & vessels in neck are cut *quickly*, it won't feel even the cut on the skin.


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## Joe Shearer

Developereo said:


> As a number of people have noted, we need to understand the rationale behind halal/kosher. As I understand it, the main rationale is to minimize pain to the animal.
> 
> The religious method is remarkably scientific in that it recognized, millenia ago, that the key sensory organ is the brain, not the body itself, so the best way to minimize pain is to put the brain out of commission as soon as possible. Given the technology of the past, and compared to contemporary methods, the best way to do that was to slit the jugular and drain the blood.
> 
> The caveat here is that it _looks_ more cruel, and there are more effective modern ways to dull the brain. Therefore, a stunning bolt, after saying the prayer, and before slitting the throat, should keep all sides happy.



Not all sides....


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> *Poison Pen*? Aw, I am hurt by that.
> 
> How about the Truthful Keyboard?



Recent studies say Keyboards are more poisness with their ability to attract most of the Germs


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## Developereo

sur said:


> Jerking of limbs is merely a *spinal*-reflex, without the brain aware of any pain.
> [...]
> Point is if animal is slaughtered with a *sharp knife* & vessels in neck are cut *quickly*, it won't feel even the cut on the skin.



Agree. This whole debate on halal/kosher is about perception rather than scientific fact. However, stunning the animal seems like an acceptable compromise.



Joe Shearer said:


> Not all sides....



The religious people should be happy since the animal gets to hear the prayers while conscious, i.e. before stunning. Also, the animal would be alive, albeit stunned, when the jugular is cut so the blood should drain properly.

The animal rights people should be happy once they understand that blood circulation is an autonomous function, so all the blood spurting out from the cut jugular does not mean that the stunned brain is feeling any pain.


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## Joe Shearer

Developereo said:


> Agree. This whole debate on halal/kosher is about perception rather than scientific fact. However, stunning the animal seems like an acceptable compromise.
> 
> The religious people should be happy since the animal gets to hear the prayers while conscious, i.e. before stunning. Also, the animal would be alive, albeit stunned, when the jugular is cut so the blood should drain properly.
> 
> The animal rights people should be happy once they understand that blood circulation is an autonomous function, so all the blood spurting out from the cut jugular does not mean that the stunned brain is feeling any pain.



And those of us who don't want to take life?


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## vsdoc

Joe Shearer said:


> And those of us who don't want to take life?



You can have cheesy delight Pizza.


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## third eye

Developereo said:


> Agree. This whole debate on halal/kosher is about perception rather than scientific fact. However, stunning the animal seems like an acceptable compromise.
> 
> 
> 
> The religious people should be happy since the animal gets to hear the prayers while conscious, i.e. before stunning. Also, the animal would be alive, albeit stunned, when the jugular is cut so the blood should drain properly.
> 
> The animal rights people should be happy once they understand that blood circulation is an autonomous function, *so all the blood spurting out from the cut jugular does not mean that the stunned brain is feeling any pain*.



How can a ' stunned' brain not feel the pain when the jugular is severed ?


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## Developereo

Joe Shearer said:


> And those of us who don't want to take life?



Depends how broadly you define life. Is it OK to kill and eat insects? How about plants?

Some people claim that plants feel emotions. Is it moral to grow a plant for the sole purpose of killing it and feeding oneself?

I know it sounds like an artificially extreme position, but where do you draw the line?

P.S. I suppose one could argue that being vegetarian is more akin to eating eggs (seeds) than the organism itself, but it still presents a dilemma if taken to an extreme view.



third eye said:


> How can a ' stunned' brain not feel the pain when the jugular is severed ?



The whole point of stunning is to make sure the animal feels no pain when it is later killed.


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## Spring Onion

Joe Shearer said:


> And those of us who don't want to take life?



*You can have potatos.* but potatos aloso breath


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## Agnostic_Indian

why would any country ban halal killing which is said to be one of the less painful method of killing ?
I see no reason for this ban.


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## Roybot

The idea of feeling "less" pain is stupid. You are going to going kill the animal and eat it after all, how does it matter if its painful or not

The fact that is a religiously prescribed is good enough reason for Poland or any other country to not ban it. There is no need for any justification, whether it is "less" painful, healthier, moral of anything else.


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## jnd3x0

vegetables are also living things, You have kill them before you eat them, sorry science don't have any values for minor lives like ...


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## Spring Onion

The Pakistanis here defend Halal meat and they have strong reasons for the support BUT its amusing Indians are bent upon opposing halal for no appearent reason but only their hate for Islam.

 funny you guys always get touchy in even in affairs of others.


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## vsdoc

I personally prefer the taste of halal mutton over jhatka mutton.

There is a difference in the taste as well as texture.

It has nothing to do with religion for me.

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## Joe Shearer

Andromache said:


> The Pakistanis here defend Halal meat and they have strong reasons for the support BUT its amusing Indians are bent upon opposing halal for no appearent reason but only their hate for Islam.
> 
> funny you guys always get touchy in even in affairs of others.



I oppose it because I am opposed to taking life, even for food.


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## Spring Onion

vsdoc said:


> I personally prefer the taste of halal mutton over jhatka mutton.
> 
> There is a difference in the taste as well as texture.
> 
> It has nothing to do with religion for me.



That is the main idea. In Islam all orders for food or things related to food are due to their health driven reasons not much about religion.



Joe Shearer said:


> I oppose it because I am opposed to taking life, even for food.



are you sure you are not opposing it due to your own faith?

and if i ask you do you eat chicken? fish? pork? anything meaty?


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## Cherokee

Andromache said:


> The Pakistanis here defend Halal meat and they have strong reasons for the support BUT its amusing Indians are* bent upon opposing halal for no appearent reason but only their hate for Islam.*
> 
> funny you guys always get touchy in even in affairs of others.



Going by your immense wisdom , is it not a strong reason in itself ??

Regarding your "funny" comment , you guys are also doing the same . Filling pages after pages over something in Poland 

Pot calling the kettle black is indeed funny


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## Joe Shearer

Andromache said:


> That is the main idea. In Islam all orders for food or things related to food are due to their health driven reasons not much about religion.
> 
> 
> 
> are you sure you are not opposing it due to your own faith?
> 
> and if i ask you do you eat chicken? fish? pork? anything meaty?



I ate none of this from the age of two. After an attack of diphtheria, all of this tasted repulsive. Later in life, when I started travelling, I forced myself to eat stuff when I couldn't get vegetarian food. Then one day, my wife explained her personal point of view, while we were watching a TV programme where a father was teaching his son to fish, and gaffed the caught fish. It had such a powerful effect on me that I stopped my compromises fully and went back to my vegetarian ways. I am a vegetarian due to belief in life, although I am no longer a Hindu, and although Hindus, even brahmins, from my part of the world eat meat and fish.

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## Spring Onion

Cherokee said:


> Going by your immense wisdom , is it not a strong reason in itself ??
> 
> Regarding your "funny" comment , you guys are also doing the same . Filling pages after pages over something in Poland
> 
> Pot calling the kettle black is indeed funny



I have NO issue with Poland ban since the Polish Muslims have always respected their laws and they said they will do respect it as well.


Secondly we Pakistani members are only supporting Halal Meat not asking Polnad to review the ban . Unlike Indians who do not have any connection with issue are hell bent upon against it. 


But yes you are right your hate for Islam is main reason for your attitude.



Joe Shearer said:


> I ate none of this from the age of two. After an attack of diphtheria, all of this tasted repulsive. Later in life, when I started travelling, I forced myself to eat stuff when I couldn't get vegetarian food. Then one day, my wife explained her personal point of view, while we were watching a TV programme where a father was teaching his son to fish, and gaffed the caught fish. It had such a powerful effect on me that I stopped my compromises fully and went back to my vegetarian ways. *I am a vegetarian due to belief in life*, although I am no longer a Hindu, and although Hindus, even brahmins, from my part of the world eat meat and fish.



Sir honestly despite all your stated reasons i feel the bold part is the strongest one in your choice .

i dont have any issue with your PoV since you have your beliefs we have ours.


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## Cherokee

Andromache said:


> I have NO issue with Poland ban since the Polish Muslims have always respected their laws and they said they will do respect it as well.



Ok then why is everybody going gaga over it ??




> Secondly we Pakistani members are only supporting Halal Meat not asking Polnad to review the ban .



Good . 


> Unlike Indians who do not have any connection with issue are hell bent upon against it.



You gave the reason no you are saying there is no connection . Please make up your mind .




> But yes you are right your hate for Islam is main reason for your attitude.



Yes but it as not ME but YOU who in her infinite wisdom said this .



Sir honestly despite all your stated reasons i feel the bold part is the strongest one in your choice .

i dont have any issue with your PoV since you have your beliefs we have ours.[/QUOTE]


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## Spring Onion

Cherokee said:


> Ok then why is everybody going gaga over it ??



 only Indians are going ga ga over the ban.


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## vsdoc

Andromache said:


> That is the main idea. In Islam all orders for food or things related to food are due to their health driven reasons not much about religion.



What about not eating pork? Health? Scientific?


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## Spring Onion

vsdoc said:


> What about not eating pork? Health? Scientific?



Health indeed.


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## vsdoc

Andromache said:


> Health indeed.



What is unhealthy about pork? 

That is any different from beef or camel meat?


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## RazPaK

vsdoc said:


> What is unhealthy about pork?
> 
> That is any different from beef or camel meat?




It's a ****** animal. Do you not know, or are you being argumentative?


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## vsdoc

RazPaK said:


> It's a ****** animal. Do you not know, or are you being argumentative?



Yes its an animal (I do not know what the ****** stands for). Just like a cow or water buffalo is.

The difference is that a pig is an omnivore while the cow is a herbivore.

Has that something to do with it? You do not eat a flesh eating animal?


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## Spring Onion

vsdoc said:


> What is unhealthy about pork?



impotency 



> That is any different from beef or camel meat?




As per Indian textbook beef eaters commit more sx .

camel meat is too hard to cook proper, never eat it so cant say how does it work or taste



vsdoc said:


> Yes its an animal (I do not know what the ****** stands for). Just like a cow or water buffalo is.
> 
> The difference is that a pig is an omnivore while the cow is a herbivore.
> 
> *Has that something to do with it? You do not eat a flesh eating animal*?



Pig also eats snakes, rodents etc etc and surely we dont eat any such animal that eats shyty stuff.


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## livingdead

I think we should have a sticky for halal/kosher.


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## vsdoc

I got this gem from *Ummah.com* , so I must share it for all here -

Did you know that we humans learned the trick of wife swapping from pigs?

You must read more .....

WHY IS PORK FORBIDDEN

Question:

Why is the eating of pork forbidden in Islam?

Answer:

The fact that consumption of pork is prohibited in Islam is well known. The following points explain various aspects of this prohibition:


1. Pork prohibited in Qur&#8217;an

The *Qur&#8217;an* prohibits the consumption of pork in no less than 4 different places. It is prohibited in 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115.

*"Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah." [Al-Qur&#8217;an 5:3]
* 
The above verses of the Holy Qur&#8217;an are sufficient to satisfy a Muslim as to why pork is forbidden.


2. Pork prohibited in the *Bible*

The Christian is likely to be convinced by his religious scriptures. The Bible prohibits the consumption of pork, in the *book of Leviticus*

*"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you".

"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."
[Leviticus 11:7-8]*

Pork is also prohibited in the *Bible in the book of Deuteronomy*

"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass."
[Deuteronomy 14:8]

A similar prohibition is repeated in the Bible in the *book of Isaiah chapter 65 verse 2-5.*


3. Consumption of pork causes several diseases

The other non-Muslims and atheists will agree only if convinced through reason, logic and science. Eating of pork can cause no less than seventy different types of diseases. A person can have various helminthes like roundworm, pinworm, hookworm, etc. One of the most dangerous is Taenia Solium, which is in lay man&#8217;s terminology called tapeworm. It harbours in the intestine and is very long. Its ova i.e. eggs, enter the blood stream and can reach almost all the organs of the body. If it enters the brain it can cause memory loss. If it enters the heart it can cause heart attack, if it enters the eye it can cause blindness, if it enters the liver it can cause liver damage. It can damage almost all the organs of the body.

Another dangerous helminthes is Trichura Tichurasis. A common misconception about pork is that if it is cooked well, these ova die. In a research project undertaken in America, it was found that out of twenty-four people suffering from Trichura Tichurasis, twenty two had cooked the pork very well. This indicates that the ova present in the pork do not die under normal cooking temperature.


4. Pork has fat building material

Pork has very little muscle building material and contains excess of fat. This fat gets deposited in the vessels and can cause hypertension and heart attack. It is not surprising that over 50% of Americans suffer from hypertension.


5. Pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth

The pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth. It lives and thrives on muck, faeces and dirt. It is the best scavenger that I know that God has produced. In the villages they don&#8217;t have modern toilets and the villagers excrete in the open air. Very often excreta is cleared by pigs.

Some may argue that in advanced countries like Australia, pigs are bred in very clean and hygienic conditions. Even in these hygienic conditions the pigs are kept together in sties. No matter how hard you try to keep them clean they are ****** by nature. *They eat and enjoy their own as well as their neighbour&#8217;s excreta.*


6. *Pig is the most shameless animal*

The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. *It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say "you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife." If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs. We Indians look upon America to be very advanced and sophisticated. Whatever they do, we follow after a few years. According to an article in Island magazine, this practice of swapping wives has become common in the affluent circles of Bombay.* 

Apun ka Bharatiya mulla hai!

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## Spring Onion

vsdoc said:


> I got this gem from *Ummah.com* , so I must share it for all here -
> *
> Did you know that we humans learned the trick of wife swapping from pigs?*
> You must read more .....
> 
> WHY IS PORK FORBIDDEN
> 
> Question:
> 
> Why is the eating of pork forbidden in Islam?
> 
> Answer:
> 
> The fact that consumption of pork is prohibited in Islam is well known. The following points explain various aspects of this prohibition:
> 
> 
> 1. Pork prohibited in Qur&#8217;an
> 
> The *Qur&#8217;an* prohibits the consumption of pork in no less than 4 different places. It is prohibited in 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115.
> 
> *"Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah." [Al-Qur&#8217;an 5:3]
> *
> The above verses of the Holy Qur&#8217;an are sufficient to satisfy a Muslim as to why pork is forbidden.
> 
> 
> 2. Pork prohibited in the *Bible*
> 
> The Christian is likely to be convinced by his religious scriptures. The Bible prohibits the consumption of pork, in the *book of Leviticus*
> 
> *"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you".
> 
> "Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."
> [Leviticus 11:7-8]*
> 
> Pork is also prohibited in the *Bible in the book of Deuteronomy*
> 
> "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass."
> [Deuteronomy 14:8]
> 
> A similar prohibition is repeated in the Bible in the *book of Isaiah chapter 65 verse 2-5.*
> 
> 
> 3. Consumption of pork causes several diseases
> 
> The other non-Muslims and atheists will agree only if convinced through reason, logic and science. Eating of pork can cause no less than seventy different types of diseases. A person can have various helminthes like roundworm, pinworm, hookworm, etc. One of the most dangerous is Taenia Solium, which is in lay man&#8217;s terminology called tapeworm. It harbours in the intestine and is very long. Its ova i.e. eggs, enter the blood stream and can reach almost all the organs of the body. If it enters the brain it can cause memory loss. If it enters the heart it can cause heart attack, if it enters the eye it can cause blindness, if it enters the liver it can cause liver damage. It can damage almost all the organs of the body.
> 
> Another dangerous helminthes is Trichura Tichurasis. A common misconception about pork is that if it is cooked well, these ova die. In a research project undertaken in America, it was found that out of twenty-four people suffering from Trichura Tichurasis, twenty two had cooked the pork very well. This indicates that the ova present in the pork do not die under normal cooking temperature.
> 
> 
> 4. Pork has fat building material
> 
> Pork has very little muscle building material and contains excess of fat. This fat gets deposited in the vessels and can cause hypertension and heart attack. It is not surprising that over 50% of Americans suffer from hypertension.
> 
> 
> 5. Pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth
> 
> The pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth. It lives and thrives on muck, faeces and dirt. It is the best scavenger that I know that God has produced. In the villages they don&#8217;t have modern toilets and the villagers excrete in the open air. Very often excreta is cleared by pigs.
> 
> Some may argue that in advanced countries like Australia, pigs are bred in very clean and hygienic conditions. Even in these hygienic conditions the pigs are kept together in sties. No matter how hard you try to keep them clean they are ****** by nature. *They eat and enjoy their own as well as their neighbour&#8217;s excreta.*
> 
> 
> 6. *Pig is the most shameless animal*
> 
> The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. *It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say "you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife." If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs. We Indians look upon America to be very advanced and sophisticated. Whatever they do, we follow after a few years. According to an article in Island magazine, this practice of swapping wives has become common in the affluent circles of Bombay.*
> 
> Apun ka Bharatiya mulla hai! ::



DOC dont mind but isnt that Swapping wives is practices in parts of INDIA.


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## vsdoc

Andromache said:


> Pig also eats snakes, rodents etc etc and surely we dont eat any such animal that eats shyty stuff.



You eat fish. Ever wonder what they eat?

You eat chicken. Ever wonder what they eat?



Andromache said:


> DOC dont mind but isnt that Swapping wives is practices in parts of INDIA.



Nothing to mind.

I keep hearing stories.

I am not a kid anymore .....


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## Spring Onion

vsdoc said:


> You eat fish. Ever wonder what they eat?
> 
> You eat chicken. Ever wonder what they eat?
> 
> Nothing to mind.
> 
> I keep hearing stories.
> 
> I am not a kid anymore .....




atleast they dont eat rats .. and no we dont eat sharks  



and NO doc its not a story its a reality and Indians do know in parts of India men share wives.


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## vsdoc

Andromache said:


> atleast they dont eat rats .. and no we dont eat sharks



Baba I am talking about surmai, bhetki, rohu, etc. Aap to direct shark par chali gayi. Btw, I am sure Karachi wallas must be enjoying shark. It is delicious. 



> and NO doc its not a story its a reality and Indians do know in parts of India men share wives.


 @Joe Shearer - This must be those sex starved Hindus looking enviously at the Muslims with 4 to pick and choose from.

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## sms

Andromache said:


> impotency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As per Indian textbook beef eaters commit more sx .
> 
> camel meat is too hard to cook proper, never eat it so cant say how does it work or taste
> 
> 
> 
> Pig also eats snakes, rodents etc etc and surely we dont eat any such animal that eats shyty stuff.





vsdoc said:


> You eat fish. Ever wonder what they eat?
> 
> You eat chicken. Ever wonder what they eat?
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing to mind.
> 
> I keep hearing stories.
> 
> I am not a kid anymore .....





Andromache said:


> atleast they dont eat rats .. and no we dont eat sharks
> 
> 
> 
> and NO doc its not a story its a reality and Indians do know in parts of India men share wives.



Guys I think it's more to do with geographical condition (very hash in Gulf case) and store ability of the meat (can be store without rotting) in gulf like conditions (origin of both religion).

It's evident that beef last longer (without refrigerator) than pork and have no/ less parasites. So given the low level of advancement of medical science, it's obvious if people fall sick eating Pork might have led people to avoid it and due course of time it might have termed haram by religions.


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## vsdoc

sms said:


> It's evident that beef last longer (without refrigerator) than pork and have no/ less parasites.



Poorly cooked beef is as dangerous as poorly cooked / uncooked (cold cuts, processed) pork.


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## sms

vsdoc said:


> Poorly cooked beef is as dangerous as poorly cooked / uncooked (cold cuts, processed) pork.



True, you and all of us know due to advancement of science and research. Think about medieval period something can store longer will be preferred due to scarcity of resources.


Any way topic is about Halal method of killing animals and objections from countries in west. 

All of you may not have noticed ... the rulings says that law of Poland prohibits killing of animal by Halal method only if animal is conscious. I think it is till legal to make animal unconscious and kill them by the method it need to be.

Also there is no ban on Halal meat import. Seems they are just trying to brand wagon of moral high-ground.

Just curious, Does stunning of animal before silting throat violates Islamic or Jews religious requirements?


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## Dr. Strangelove

double standard west


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## Black Widow

Andromache said:


> That is the main idea. In Islam all orders for food or things related to food are due to their health driven reasons not much about religion.





Wrong.. In Islam Everything is copies from existing behaviour/nature/culture. 

1. Halal: It was already operational , some cult were already doing it , Islam does copy it. Later some Scientists of PDF discovered that Halal is best way to kill animal..  
2. Halal Shops: Its economic embargo on non Muslim. In Muslim Majority country it provide economic embargo on non Muslims, (No Muslim will buy non-Halal stuff, so non Muslim business will suffer loss). In Muslim minority country it provide market to Muslims (Be Muslim Buy Muslim) .
3. Khatna: Khatna was done much before Islam founded. In desert where there is less water , men can get deseas as he can not clean his tool with water. The sediment deposite and it create trouble. The local tribes found a solution, they cut the skin so that there wont be any sedimentation. 
4. Allah: It was name of God in local tribes. 
5. Koran: It was not koran, the name was something else, Later it was named Koran.

etc....


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## sms

^^^^^ isn't it applicable to all religions and societies?

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## Black Widow

sms said:


> ^^^^^ isn't it applicable to all religions and societies?




Yes it is .. and all other religion believe and accept it, but Islamist don't.. They think there book is from god and there prophet discovered something which was non-existing. More over these PDF scientists say that Khatna reduce risk of AIDS, Was Prophet Muhammad knew AIDS??? If allah told them(thru messenger) to cut the forskin then who told it to Jews?? and who told it to Afrikan tribes???

1. When a religion is formed, they look for followers, they spread propaganda, they exploit shortcoming of existing system/religion and spread there religion. Islam and chirtianism both used Sword to spread there faith. (If Sufi would have spread faith, there won't be terrorism). Sufi Islam has no place for terrorism.

2. Xianism was as cruel as Islam before renaissance, Women were murdered (Witch Hunting). Pagans were persecuted, Different sect were annihilated, Catholic won and they are majority. 

3. 25 Dec is not jesus B'day, Jesus born in January. 25 dec was paganic festival, to include those pagans , church shifted 25th dec as jesus B'day.. Like wise there are many practice in Xianism which are paganic .

4. Hinduism: As Hinduism is evolved from nature worshipper , we follow many practices which our anscestors did...




Each religion is full of murder, rape and crimes. Some civilized early, some later, some are still waiting to become civilized. No religion is given by god, all are man made, all are evolutionary in nature...

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## selvan33

Black Widow said:


> Yes it is .. and all other religion believe and accept it, but Islamist don't.. They think there book is from god and there prophet discovered something which was non-existing. More over these PDF scientists say that Khatna reduce risk of AIDS, Was Prophet Muhammad knew AIDS??? If allah told them(thru messenger) to cut the forskin then who told it to Jews?? and who told it to Afrikan tribes???
> 
> 1. When a religion is formed, they look for followers, they spread propaganda, they exploit shortcoming of existing system/religion and spread there religion. Islam and chirtianism both used Sword to spread there faith. (If Sufi would have spread faith, there won't be terrorism). Sufi Islam has no place for terrorism.
> 
> 2. Xianism was as cruel as Islam before renaissance, Women were murdered (Witch Hunting). Pagans were persecuted, Different sect were annihilated, Catholic won and they are majority.
> 
> 3. 25 Dec is not jesus B'day, Jesus born in January. 25 dec was paganic festival, to include those pagans , church shifted 25th dec as jesus B'day.. Like wise there are many practice in Xianism which are paganic .
> 
> 4. Hinduism: As Hinduism is evolved from nature worshipper , we follow many practices which our anscestors did...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Each religion is full of murder, rape and crimes. Some civilized early, some later, some are still waiting to become civilized. No religion is given by god, all are man made, all are evolutionary in nature...





well..... i accept whatever you said was right but why you are saying these things here. which gentleman in this PDF paks going to accept it. i hope no one.

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## blackops

I say make the animal numb first then cut it the way you want to at the end we all enjoy eating it in what ever way it was cut

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## Spring Onion

Black Widow said:


> Wrong.. In Islam Everything is copies from existing behaviour/nature/culture.
> 
> 1. Halal: It was already operational , some cult were already doing it , Islam does copy it. Later some Scientists of PDF discovered that Halal is best way to kill animal..
> 2. Halal Shops: Its economic embargo on non Muslim. In Muslim Majority country it provide economic embargo on non Muslims, (No Muslim will buy non-Halal stuff, so non Muslim business will suffer loss). In Muslim minority country it provide market to Muslims (Be Muslim Buy Muslim) .
> 3. Khatna: Khatna was done much before Islam founded. In desert where there is less water , men can get deseas as he can not clean his tool with water. The sediment deposite and it create trouble. The local tribes found a solution, they cut the skin so that there wont be any sedimentation.
> 4. Allah: It was name of God in local tribes.
> 5. Koran: It was not koran, the name was something else, Later it was named Koran.
> 
> etc....



Dint copy. We believe in Ibrahimic religions and Islam was the completion of Ibrahimic religion.

Secondly NON-Muslim Business should adopt everything for sale. If they are phobic to our eating habits and values then we are NOT responsible for their business loss. we will go for our own choice rather every buyer does so.

Thirdly Khatna was made compulsory for followers of Prophet Ibrahim (AS) it has nothing to do with infidels.

fourthly your claim about name have many conspiracy theories we dont buy that. if it was a tribal name of a god then why you Indian Hindus have an issue with "Allah" 

last but not the least i wont buy an argument of a Hindu from India on Quran who has no knowledge about the basics even.



the last word: You can eat non-Halal meat we have no issue , but we dont go for it.


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## Spring Onion

And oh yeh Hinduism evolved from nature thats why Hunuman allowed burning widows alive? and thats why it has decided who is a LOW cast and who is high cast. come on blackwidow you are no different than others when it comes to religion.


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## Joe Shearer

Andromache said:


> DOC dont mind but isnt that Swapping wives is practices in parts of INDIA.



I believe so, but those parts aren't parts of India any longer. They are a separate country now. 

The precise tribe is the Hazara, in case you are really, truly interested.

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## Black Widow

Andromache said:


> Dint copy. We believe in Ibrahimic religions and Islam was the completion of Ibrahimic religion.
> 
> Secondly NON-Muslim Business should adopt everything for sale. If they are phobic to our eating habits and values then we are NOT responsible for their business loss. we will go for our own choice rather every buyer does so.
> 
> Thirdly Khatna was made compulsory for followers of Prophet Ibrahim (AS) it has nothing to do with infidels.
> 
> fourthly your claim about name have many conspiracy theories we dont buy that. if it was a tribal name of a god then why you Indian Hindus have an issue with "Allah"
> 
> last but not the least i wont buy an argument of a Hindu from India on Quran who has no knowledge about the basics even.
> 
> 
> 
> the last word: You can eat non-Halal meat we have no issue , but we dont go for it.




Copy , influence, adopted, inspired etc are similar word you can choose any one if copy sound rude, you can choose influence... 

You are wrong here, Islam is not only religion, its system. The system which provide political and Business solution. A Business solution to benefit its believer first. When a Muslim go to America he first search for Halal Shop (run by Muslim) *Be Muslim Buy Muslim*. In Pakistan non halal meat shop will not run, which will give less business to others who can't follow Islamic way of cutting animal..

@Khatna: I don't know who was prophet Ibrahim. I don't know he was real or Imaginary. If he ordered Khatna, then he must was a Afrikan tribesman or Jews. As I heard Xians also respect/follow Ibrahim, but they don't do khatna...

We Hindu don't have issue with Allah or Koran, If we would have issue we wouldn't have allowed you to settle in Kerla and Gujrat. We allowed Jews , persians and Muslims to Settle in India, we never had problm with Gods.. We have many god, we can add one more... I just said the name Allah is taken from a Paganic god of moon...

Koran/Qura'n : then do some research, It was named koran very late, earlier it has some other name, If I find that name I will defy post u.


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## Joe Shearer

vsdoc said:


> Baba I am talking about surmai, bhetki, rohu, etc. Aap to direct shark par chali gayi. Btw, I am sure Karachi wallas must be enjoying shark. It is delicious.
> 
> 
> @Joe Shearer - This must be those sex starved Hindus looking enviously at the Muslims with 4 to pick and choose from.



My anthropology text-books tell me Madame should be looking right, not left.

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## Black Widow

Andromache said:


> And oh yeh Hinduism evolved from nature thats why Hunuman allowed burning widows alive? and thats why it has decided who is a LOW cast and who is high cast. come on blackwidow you are no different than others when it comes to religion.





Post 186, last 2 lines will explain my position... I agree Hinduism had bad phase. Religion is not perfect, coz man are not... We make religion, we are corrupt, thats why religion is corrupt..


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## Spring Onion

Black Widow said:


> Post 186, last 2 lines will explain my position... I agree Hinduism had bad phase. Religion is not perfect, coz man are not... We make religion, we are corrupt, thats why religion is corrupt..



If so then atleast you should not come up with comparison of religion.

Just comment on topic. If you dont like halal meat its your headache but dont force me to agree with you by insulting my religion.

anyone who is more concerned for own business will take into consideration all the points. Muslims dont consume NON-Halal food so if anyone wants to capture big market of Muslims they will provide what we buy.

These Businessmen either can opt Islamo-phobic behaviour or go for expanding their business, its up to them.

If there is ban on Halal Slaughter in Poland, well Muslims can import halal meat.

not an issue


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## Joe Shearer

Andromache said:


> And oh yeh Hinduism evolved from nature thats why Hunuman allowed burning widows alive? and thats why it has decided who is a LOW cast and who is high cast. come on blackwidow *you are no different than others when it comes to religion.*



I know that at my age, I find it difficult to read, and can sympathise in part with you. Actually *Black Widow*, nasty creature that he is, said precisely that in his post.

Hanuman had nothing to do with burning widows alive, btw. Or with deciding who was low caste or high caste, any more than Allah decided who was a Syed and who was not. Or, dare I say this, who is a Sadat and who is not.

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## Spring Onion

Joe Shearer said:


> I believe so, but those parts aren't parts of India any longer. They are a separate country now.
> 
> The precise tribe is the Hazara, in case you are really, truly interested.



 which separate country?


----------



## Black Widow

Andromache said:


> If so then atleast you should not come up with comparison of religion.
> 
> Just comment on topic. If you dont like halal meat its your headache but dont force me to agree with you by insulting my religion.
> 
> anyone who is more concerned for own business will take into consideration all the points. Muslims dont consume NON-Halal food so if anyone wants to capture big market of Muslims they will provide what we buy.
> 
> These Businessmen either can opt Islamo-phobic behaviour or go for expanding their business, its up to them.
> 
> If there is ban on Halal Slaughter in Poland, well Muslims can import halal meat.
> 
> not an issue





This thread was about Halal and some one said Halal is scientific and blah blah.. So I typed so many things.. In some thread if some genius say "Jhatka" is scientific way, I will counter him in same spirit..


Some one told God/prophet told us to kill this way, some told God/Prophet told to do khatna to avoid AIDS, that force me to put these comments..


No offence to Islam or Hinduism. 

I am a hardcore Hindu, but I don believe Rama or krishna as god.. (If in some thread some one want to discuss I will defy discuss)...


----------



## gslv

Andromache said:


> And oh yeh Hinduism evolved from nature thats why Hunuman allowed burning widows alive? and thats why it has decided who is a LOW cast and who is high cast. come on blackwidow you are no different than others when it comes to religion.


the caste system was previously was not by birth it was by deeds. well let me give a verse from Bhagbat gita (its in sanskit of course)
"chaturbarna maya sprushtah guna karma bivagatah" it means there is no caste system by birth one belong to one caste bcoz of his deeds.

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## Spring Onion

Joe Shearer said:


> I know that at my age, I find it difficult to read, and can sympathise in part with you. Actually *Black Widow*, nasty creature that he is, said precisely that in his post.
> 
> Hanuman had nothing to do with burning widows alive, btw. Or with deciding who was low caste or high caste, any more than Allah decided who was a Syed and who was not. Or, dare I say this, who is a Sadat and who is not.



 yes you can dare to ask that. Whats so difficult in understanding that Descendents of Prophet (PBUH) are sadat.

why you felt irritated by mention of low cast and high cast Hindus?


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## Joe Shearer

Andromache said:


> yes you can dare to ask that. Whats so difficult in understanding that Descendents of Prophet (PBUH) are sadat.
> 
> why you felt irritated by mention of low cast and high cast Hindus?



Irritated? Why should I be irritated? Let those who believe in such things, and distinguishing themselves from others because of being the descendants of this, that or the other many distinguished persons who have gone before us, worry about them. .

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## Spring Onion

Joe Shearer said:


> Irritated? Why should I be irritated? Let those who believe in such things, and distinguishing themselves from others because of being the descendants of this, that or the other many distinguished persons who have gone before us, worry about them. .



In my personal view it has nothing to do with distinction  one has to be proud of his/her bloodline irrepective of achievements


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## Black Widow

Andromache said:


> In my personal view it has nothing to do with distinction  one has to be proud of his/her bloodline irrepective of achievements





Wrong One has to be proud of Deeds of his/her ancestors and critical (not Cynical) of there wrong doing. Its our Deed which define us, not our religion/region or race..

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## selvan33

forcetrip said:


> Please get the correct information regarding this issue .. Ask anyone in the medical field what happens when you cut the jugular of a human being or an animal.. if their reply is lots of pain and suffering then i will quit eating meat..




no jugular vein cutting is not painful when compared to others but first two seconds it will highly painful(as like other arterial or venous cut) but after 5 secs the cutted animal go cerebral ischaemia which cause immediate suppression of all sensory activities(due to lack of blood neurotransmittors like Ach wont reach superficial or deep sensory receptors) thereby pain also get reduced and after 10-15 secs animal will go for unconsciousness and then death due to VMC center and vital function suprression. all these will happen due to lack of cerebral perfusion and venous return.

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## selvan33

KingMamba93 said:


> Lingering death? Any biologist will tell you that cutting the animals jugular is a more painless death and healthier too.




no meat is healthier if you not cooked it well and jugular venous cutting pain threshold will be same compared to others arterial cuts but it will last maximum for 5-8 secs only after that cerebral ischaemia will cause anasthesia leads to sensory recognition and also death will occur quickly.

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## Spring Onion

Black Widow said:


> Wrong One has to be proud of Deeds of his/her ancestors and critical (not Cynical) of there wrong doing. Its our Deed which define us, not our religion/region or race..



Are you proud of your ancestors" deeds? and who are your ancestors?


----------



## vsdoc

Andromache said:


> In my personal view it has nothing to do with distinction  one has to be proud of his/her bloodline irrepective of achievements





Black Widow said:


> Wrong One has to be proud of Deeds of his/her ancestors and critical (not Cynical) of there wrong doing. Its our Deed which define us, not our religion/region or race..



I am a great believer in bloodlines myself. Nothing wrong in it per se. Being proud of one's bloodlines and race in no way means it comes to the detriment of those of others. 

Now can we get back to the more interesting part of the discussion please?

Khatna this and khatna that makes me wince every time in my chair .....


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## Joe Shearer

vsdoc said:


> I am a great believer in bloodlines myself. Nothing wrong in it per se. Being proud of one's bloodlines and race in no way means it comes to the detriment of those of others.
> 
> Now can we get back to the more interesting part of the discussion please?
> 
> Khatna this and khatna that makes me wince every time in my chair .....



Funny chair, that, Doc.


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## VCheng

Andromache said:


> Recent studies say Keyboards are more poisness with their ability to attract most of the Germs




Not all germs are poisonous. Many are beneficial, on a keyboard and elsewhere.

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## vsdoc

Joe Shearer said:


> Funny chair, that, Doc.



LOL I would be wincing even if I was suspended by my ankles from a building man.

Thank Ahura Mazda no doc or quack got anything sharp many multiple meters from my wuwu ......


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## jandk

good. we india should also ban it. it is animal cruelty plain and simple. we will not tolerate barbaric traditions just because banning them might offend people of certain religious groups

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## Icewolf

jandk said:


> good. we india should also ban it. it is animal cruelty plain and simple



Poland can ban it, because it has virtually no Muslims. On the other side in India.... If you want another 1992 and Godhra...


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## jandk

Icewolf said:


> Poland can ban it, because it has virtually no Muslims. On the other side in India.... If you want another 1992 and Godhra...



what was the end result of godhra......

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## Tshering22

Icewolf said:


> Poland can ban it, because it has virtually no Muslims. On the other side in India.... If you want another 1992 and Godhra...



Don't worry. Things won't go that bad. Otherwise we don't really mind enforcing it the harsh way.


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## Icewolf

Tshering22 said:


> Don't worry. Things won't go that bad. Otherwise we don't really mind enforcing it the harsh way.



Enforcing it... Harsh way... Wow you're tough material... Muslims have never been forced... Do this and India will get run over in 48 hours by Muslims I guarantee...



jandk said:


> what was the end result of godhra......



End result of Godhra was Both Hindus and Muslims getting killed


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## jandk

Icewolf said:


> Enforcing it... Harsh way... Wow you're tough material... Muslims have never been forced... Do this and India will get run over in 48 hours by Muslims I guarantee...
> 
> 
> 
> End result of Godhra was Both Hindus and Muslims getting killed



what was the proportion sir... seems you have selective and rather myopic memory...

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## 500

Their country they set laws. There is nothing to discuss here.

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## Hammer-fist

Zionist moron, you are wrong. They will have to comply with EU laws in this so not quite a case of "their country they set laws" as your Muslim-hating Zionist mind may think.



> Big business
> 
> Kosher meat (slaughtered according to Jewish practice) has particular significance in Poland because the country was Europe's Jewish heartland before the Nazi Holocaust.
> 
> Some 90% of Poland's Jewish population of three million were murdered. *Today just 6,000 Jews remain in a country of 38.3 million, according to the European Jewish Congress.*
> 
> Poland's Muslims can be numbered in the tens of thousands.
> 
> However, Poland is now a producer of both kosher and halal (slaughtered according to Islamic practice) meat for export, selling to Arab countries, Turkey and Israel, the Polish newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza reports.
> 
> The value of exports from Poland's kosher and halal abattoirs last year is estimated at 200m euros (£162m; $259m), AFP reports



BBC News - Polish ritual slaughter illegal, court rules


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## Tshering22

Icewolf said:


> Enforcing it... Harsh way... Wow you're tough material... Muslims have never been forced... Do this and India will get run over in 48 hours by Muslims I guarantee...
> 
> 
> 
> End result of Godhra was Both Hindus and Muslims getting killed





You're one funny person here. Stop your nonsense talk and learn to respect the laws of other countries. Muslims decided to go and live there and not the other way around.

When in their country, learn to respect them or expect xenophobia. Simple.

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## v9s

Their country, their rules.

But what I find ridiculous is people calling the method "cruel" and "inhumane."

Really? REALLY? ...That's how animals have been slaughtered for CENTURIES!! 

Oh let's _stun_ the animal first, then _slaughter_, before _eating it_.  Ridiculous.


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## Juice

Emmie said:


> I don't know how do you regard the term unclean... Blood is unclean, unclean in the sense that it contains toxic substances which are excreted by some processes..
> 
> And, concentration is not same as in other tissues...



If blood is so unclean go to a doctor and have it drained out of you.

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## Emmie

Juice said:


> If blood is so unclean go to a doctor and have it drained out of you.



Don't bother I have a pair of kidneys intact... Why don't you donate both your kidneys if you have the luxury of blood without any toxic substance?


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

I think most paks don't know that in the u s after the animal is slaughtered at the slaughter house---it is hung by its feet for a few hours so that the blood drains out of the body----.


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## Sinnerman108

What are the Jews going to eat then ?

Poland has a sizeable jewish represenation , right ?


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## Koovie

Icewolf said:


> Poland?? I thought that country was overrun by Germany??



OT: Poland was practically gangraped from two sides. Was completely on its own, had a hopelessly outdated military and still fought to defend herself. They have my deepest respect.


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## bronxbull

Whatever,after watching that slaughter video of KS and Joe sir's posts,i am not eating meat again for any reason.


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## KS

Andromache said:


> atleast they dont eat rats .. and no we dont eat sharks



You are missing on one of the tastiest fish ever - shark ..

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## senheiser

A1Kaid said:


> Who cares its still going to happen whether Poland likes it or not, that's just the reality. Apparently Poland is running into trouble with the EU Parliament because of this ban.



eu is weak nowthey have their own problems


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## kam83

Safriz said:


> Jhatka causes almost instant cardiac arrest,and blood remains stuck in the body...You know well what kind of garbage blood carries? All sorts of.



Blood carries Garbage must be a Mullah science...
What about tissue that produces this garbage which blood needs to carry..why eat those also...


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## kobiraaz

kam83 said:


> Blood carries Garbage must be a Mullah science...
> What about tissue that produces this garbage which blood needs to carry..why eat those also...



lol! Mullah science? Whats your science ? Pathshala? Of course blood carries most of bacteria!!!


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## kam83

kobiraaz said:


> lol! Mullah science? Whats your science ? Pathshala? Of course blood carries most of bacteria!!!



you gotta learn a lot of meat processing industry....... so does halal get rid of all blood and bacteria..... cheerleader


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## Black Widow

kobiraaz said:


> lol! Mullah science? Whats your science ? Pathshala? Of course blood carries most of bacteria!!!




I will cook it hard, all bacteria will die.. .. The science behind these paganic practice is...

1. To make human cruel.. 

Truth: If there will be any scientific test for cruelty, Trust be a common Muslim kid will be more cruel than common Christian or Hindu Kid. If you give me chicken to cut, My hand will shiver, but my Muslim frnd can cut it easily... 

Reason: In old days cruelty was bravery, Men use to fight hand to hand, sword to sword, knife to knife so they were suppose to be cruel not soft hearted like me. So all paganic and brahmic religion added sacrifice in there activity list.

Islam: Islam is not Pagans , why they follow it?? Remember Islam was founded in land of pagans, so most of Islamic activity is copied/inspired/invented form either Pagans or Judaism. Infact the name Allah is name of moon god in paganism. 

So what is Halal: Halal is "be Muslim Buy Muslim" System, In Muslim dominated area it is tool for persecuting minority (economic embargo) In Muslim minority area, it is tool to provide jobs for Muslim...


End of Line...


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## haviZsultan

Looks like Muslims are going to hunted with wicker spears for the next few centuries. Congratulations fellow muslims for being so weak and pathetic.


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## Black Widow

haviZsultan said:


> Looks like Muslims are going to hunted with wicker spears for the next few centuries. Congratulations fellow muslims for *being so weak* and pathetic.






Are u sure Muslims are weak???


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## kobiraaz

Black Widow said:


> I will cook it hard, all bacteria will die.. .. The science behind these paganic practice is...
> 
> 1. To make human cruel..
> 
> Truth: If there will be any scientific test for cruelty, Trust be a common Muslim kid will be more cruel than common Christian or Hindu Kid. If you give me chicken to cut, My hand will shiver, but my Muslim frnd can cut it easily...
> 
> Reason: In old days cruelty was bravery, Men use to fight hand to hand, sword to sword, knife to knife so they were suppose to be cruel not soft hearted like me. So all paganic and brahmic religion added sacrifice in there activity list.
> 
> Islam: Islam is not Pagans , why they follow it?? Remember Islam was founded in land of pagans, so most of Islamic activity is copied/inspired/invented form either Pagans or Judaism. Infact the name Allah is name of moon god in paganism.
> 
> So what is Halal: Halal is "be Muslim Buy Muslim" System, In Muslim dominated area it is tool for persecuting minority (economic embargo) In Muslim minority area, it is tool to provide jobs for Muslim...
> 
> 
> End of Line...



please don't waste your time. You write BS so confidently in blue color, already found out in Shia-Sunni thread. Stick to your India. Leave Islam for Muslims!



Black Widow said:


> I will cook it hard, all bacteria will die.. .. The science behind these paganic practice is...
> 
> 1. To make human cruel..
> 
> Truth: If there will be any scientific test for cruelty, Trust be a common Muslim kid will be more cruel than common Christian or Hindu Kid. If you give me chicken to cut, My hand will shiver, but my Muslim frnd can cut it easily...
> 
> Reason: In old days cruelty was bravery, Men use to fight hand to hand, sword to sword, knife to knife so they were suppose to be cruel not soft hearted like me. So all paganic and brahmic religion added sacrifice in there activity list.
> 
> Islam: Islam is not Pagans , why they follow it?? Remember Islam was founded in land of pagans, so most of Islamic activity is copied/inspired/invented form either Pagans or Judaism. Infact the name Allah is name of moon god in paganism.
> 
> So what is Halal: Halal is "be Muslim Buy Muslim" System, In Muslim dominated area it is tool for persecuting minority (economic embargo) In Muslim minority area, it is tool to provide jobs for Muslim...
> 
> 
> End of Line...



please don't waste your time. You write BS so confidently in blue color, already found out in Shia-Sunni thread. Stick to your India. Leave Islam for Muslims!


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## JUBA

The so called modern slaughter in the so called modern farms







The best way to kill an animal is the "Islamic way" where animal die from blood loss only.

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## v9s

Black Widow said:


> I will cook it hard, all bacteria will die.. .. The science behind these paganic practice is...
> 
> 1. To make human cruel..
> 
> Truth: If there will be any scientific test for cruelty, Trust be a common Muslim kid will be more cruel than common Christian or Hindu Kid. If you give me chicken to cut, My hand will shiver, but my Muslim frnd can cut it easily...
> 
> Reason: In old days cruelty was bravery, Men use to fight hand to hand, sword to sword, knife to knife so they were suppose to be cruel not soft hearted like me. So all paganic and brahmic religion added sacrifice in there activity list.
> 
> Islam: Islam is not Pagans , why they follow it?? Remember Islam was founded in land of pagans, so most of Islamic activity is copied/inspired/invented form either Pagans or Judaism. Infact the name Allah is name of moon god in paganism.
> 
> So what is Halal: Halal is "be Muslim Buy Muslim" System, In Muslim dominated area it is tool for persecuting minority (economic embargo) In Muslim minority area, it is tool to provide jobs for Muslim...
> 
> 
> End of Line...



LOL...we have a winner of the most-chutia-on-this-thread award!

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## Black Widow

v9s said:


> LOL...we have a winner of the most-*chutia*-on-this-thread award!





Thanks for introducing yourself on PDF. If you have some logic please rebuck else go and sleep tight..


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## Jamaal Yelmaaz

Black Widow said:


> I will cook it hard, all bacteria will die.. .. The science behind these paganic practice is...
> 
> 1. To make human cruel..
> 
> Truth: If there will be any scientific test for cruelty, Trust be a common Muslim kid will be more cruel than common Christian or Hindu Kid. If you give me chicken to cut, My hand will shiver, but my Muslim frnd can cut it easily...
> 
> Reason: In old days cruelty was bravery, Men use to fight hand to hand, sword to sword, knife to knife so they were suppose to be cruel not soft hearted like me. So all paganic and brahmic religion added sacrifice in there activity list.
> 
> Islam: Islam is not Pagans , why they follow it?? Remember Islam was founded in land of pagans, so most of Islamic activity is copied/inspired/invented form either Pagans or Judaism. Infact the name Allah is name of moon god in paganism.
> 
> So what is Halal: Halal is "be Muslim Buy Muslim" System, In Muslim dominated area it is tool for persecuting minority (economic embargo) In Muslim minority area, it is tool to provide jobs for Muslim...
> 
> 
> End of Line...



All kind of foods and drinks that forbiden(haram) by Allah based on people health..islam just forbid the harmful foods and drinks...The rest all is Halal(free)...i challnge you to research sceinticly on halal and haram then you may would learn the reality..you will never encounter with any stuff that contrary to science.....

*The least painful form of killing animals is slaughtering from throat*
you may kill bacterias or viruses by cooking meat hard...but by this way you will eliminate all vitamins and proteins in meat as well.
moreover, you could not remove garbage and dirty stuffs from blood by cooking it too hard..

if you make comparison between chritians and muslims glance over the near history of West...no need go to so far..remember WW 2 and WW1...
As Muslims we esteem and believe in all prothets and holy books that christian and Jews believe including Jesus and Moses but in very different way...for exam..Cristian claims that Jesus is the son of God.. Muslim reject it and say Jesus is human being but a highly blessed prothet by God.. God Creates not give birth..

so i suggest you, please do know better before you try to compare somethings..


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## Black Widow

JUBA said:


> The so called modern slaughter in the so called modern farms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The best way to kill an animal is the "Islamic way" where animal die from blood loss only.





The Moral of this youtube is to become Vegan,... Will you????


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## iam not greek

great decision by poland. India should follow same


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## Black Widow

Jamaal Yelmaaz said:


> All kind of foods and drinks that forbiden(haram) by Allah based on people health..islam just forbid the harmful foods and drinks...The rest all is Halal...i challnge you to research sceinticly on halal and haram then you may would learn the reality..you will never encounter with any stuff that contrary to science.....
> 
> *The least painful form of killing animals is slaughtering from throat*
> you may kill bacterias or viruses by cooking meat hard...but by this way you will eliminate all vitamins and proteins in meat as well.
> moreover, you could not remove garbage and dirty stuffs from blood by cooking it too hard..
> 
> if you make comparison between chritians and muslims glance over the near history of West...no need go to so far..remember WW 2 and WW1...
> As Muslims we esteem and believe in all prothets and holy books that christian and Jews believe including Jesus and Moses but in very different way...for exam..Cristian claims that Jesus is the son of God.. Muslim reject it and say Jesus is human being but a highly blessed prothet by God.. God Creates not give birth..
> 
> so i suggest you, please do know better before you try to compare somethings..






Few things for consideration, God neither give birth nor create, Its human who give birth God and crerated them. There is no evidence that God came and said XYZ is your prophet, It were followers who declare some one God or Prophet. Every century many God and prophets are created by men, some are popular some not. 


Halal Killing: I am not scientist neither God is, The slitting throat is pagan practice followed by Judaism and Islam. Science is based on observation, some Pagan might didn't like taste of blood. he observed sliting throat drains out blood. Other followed it and it became custom, the new born religion followed the custom. 

I will cook in pressure cooker to avoid loss of Vitamins and Proteins. Trust me there was no pressure cooker when Islam was formed, else this paganic practice wouldn't have followed..


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## v9s

Black Widow said:


> Halal Killing: I am not scientist neither God is, The slitting throat is pagan practice followed by Judaism and Islam. ... some Pagan might didn't like taste of blood. he observed sliting throat drains out blood. Other followed it and it became custom, the new born religion followed the custom.





And you want me to engage in a debate with you. 

Beta, it's not just me who thinks you're a chutia. App ke mata pita bhi ap ko chutia samajh te hain.


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## Puchtoon

good decision by poland ,loved it


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## born

> great decision by poland. India should follow same



bahhhhh in ur dreams!! 

without meat life is dull.


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## bronxbull

kobiraaz said:


> lol! Mullah science? Whats your science ? Pathshala? Of course blood carries most of bacteria!!!



we dont eat meat at all dude and even our non vegetarians eat it twice a week and the animals are picked from their own house and thus with no steroids/pumped up fat.



Jamaal Yelmaaz said:


> All kind of foods and drinks that forbiden(haram) by Allah based on people health..islam just forbid the harmful foods and drinks...The rest all is Halal(free)...i challnge you to research sceinticly on halal and haram then you may would learn the reality..you will never encounter with any stuff that contrary to science.....
> 
> *The least painful form of killing animals is slaughtering from throat*
> you may kill bacterias or viruses by cooking meat hard...but by this way you will eliminate all vitamins and proteins in meat as well.
> moreover, you could not remove garbage and dirty stuffs from blood by cooking it too hard..
> 
> if you make comparison between chritians and muslims glance over the near history of West...no need go to so far..remember WW 2 and WW1...
> As Muslims we esteem and believe in all prothets and holy books that christian and Jews believe including Jesus and Moses but in very different way...for exam..Cristian claims that Jesus is the son of God.. Muslim reject it and say Jesus is human being but a highly blessed prothet by God.. God Creates not give birth..
> 
> so i suggest you, please do know better before you try to compare somethings..



So why are coocnut toddy & Organic alcohol/rice beer(sake) banned?

They are not bad for health.


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## Jamaal Yelmaaz

bronxbull said:


> we dont eat meat at all dude and even our non vegetarians eat it twice a week and the animals are picked from their own house and thus with no steroids/pumped up fat.
> 
> 
> 
> So why are coocnut toddy & Organic alcohol/rice beer(sake) banned?
> 
> They are not bad for health.



all kind of drinks could make people drunk frobidden(haram) by islam.....Why??
it is becuase of intoxication lead people to make various evils..murders, accidents...rapes etc..
and more.... drunkness could decrease conciousness of human at level animals..

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## KRAIT

Jamaal Yelmaaz said:


> all kind of drinks could make people drunk frobidden(haram) by islam.....Why??
> it is becuase of intoxication lead people to make various evils..murders, accidents...rapes etc..
> and more.... drunkness could decrease conciousness of human at level animals..


Not necessarily. I agree that in general it affects decision making of a person but most of the heinous criminals have done their crime in full consciousness.


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## bronxbull

Jamaal Yelmaaz said:


> all kind of drinks could make people drunk frobidden(haram) by islam.....Why??
> it is becuase of intoxication lead people to make various evils..murders, accidents...rapes etc..
> and more.... drunkness could decrease conciousness of human at level animals..



what abt hypertension and short temper that comes from eating red meat 3 times a day?

doesnt that cause murders/rapes?


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## Emmie

bronxbull said:


> *what abt hypertension and short temper that comes from eating red meat 3 times a day?*
> 
> doesnt that cause murders/rapes?



That's new to me! Did you mean obesity?


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## bronxbull

of course red meat makes ur arteries go hard?

come on dude.


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## Emmie

bronxbull said:


> of course red meat makes ur arteries go hard?
> 
> come on dude.



Trust me I have been searching for the mechanism for last 3 years, still yet to see.. Do you have anything other than observational studies to share?


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## bronxbull

it is a straightforward thing man,dont knw why it is so hard to figure.


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## Emmie

^^^ No it's not a straight forward thing, wouldn't have asked if it was that straight forward thing. Anyway, leave it, don't bother.

On a different note, "reply with quote" tab is there for a purpose..


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## Jamaal Yelmaaz

bronxbull said:


> what abt hypertension and short temper that comes from eating red meat 3 times a day?
> 
> doesnt that cause murders/rapes?



eating red meat 3 times day..?? What do u say my mate ?
This is totally madness. i could not walk in street that a man wwalk who eat meat 3 times a day

not 3 times eating meat only one time everyday also harmful for health...it is the best 2 times a weak.....
more of everythings is harmful for health...for exam...drinking tea and coffee very much cause short temper and hypertension as well....eating more honey will cause abdominal pain 

im very suprised when see in some country people have meat in brakfast early morning


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## bronxbull

@Jamaal

it happens in India a lot,Muslims abuse meat and Hindus abuse Caffeine.


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## Raja.Pakistani

I guess we should ask the animals whether he would like to be slaughter in religious or secular way ? lol

But we have indians here who are spokeperson of animals


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## Arabian Legend

Raja.Pakistani said:


> I guess we should ask the animals whether he would like to be slaughter in religious or secular way ? lol
> 
> But we have indians here who are spokeperson of animals

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