# Mushshak Trainer Aircraft



## Manticore

*MFI-17 Mushshak Basic Trainer Aircraft, Pakistan*

The MFI-17 Mushshak is a single engine basic trainer aircraft designed and developed by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) for the Pakistan Armed Forces. It was derived from Saab MFI-17 supporter-trainer aircraft. More than 200 Mushshaks are currently in operation worldwide.[/B]

The aircraft has been accredited by the Pakistan Civil Aviation Authority, abnd has obtained Type Acceptance certification from the South African Civil Aviation Authority.
PAC rolled out an improved version, the MFI-395 Super Mushshak aircraft in 1995. The Super Mushshak took its maiden flight in August 1996.[/B]

*Orders and deliveries*
*Recent orders of the MFI-17 include: the Egyptian Air Force (54), the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (25), the Royal Air Force of Oman (Eight), the Pakistan Air Force (149), the Royal Saudi Air Force (20) and the Syrian Air Force (Six).*

The MFI-17 was designed to train pilots of the PAF Academy located at Risalpur. The aircraft is fitted with a blind flying screen allowing for instrument flying missions. It was designed to meet the US FAR23 certification standards in utility and aerobatics classes.

*The Mushshak was designed to operate on rough airfields even in adverse weather conditions. It can execute a wide range of ground attack missions including forward air control, border patrol, reconnaissance, artillery fire observation, liaison, camouflage review and transportation.*

*Development*

*The Pakistan Army signed a contract with Saab in June 1974 to acquire five MFI-17B Supporters along with supply kits. The contract was signed to supercede the obsolete Howard L-19 trainer aircraft. A licence agreement was also obtained to build an indigenous aircraft based on the MFI-17B.*

*Two MFI-17Bs were shipped to the PAF Academy in September 1974 for evaluation by trainer pilots. Upon taking the required suggestions from the Academy, the PAC started the development of MFI-17 Mushshak in June 1975 at its facility in Kamra, Pakistan. Saab ceased the supporter aircraft parts supply in 1982.*

*The maiden MFI-17 Mushshak production aircraft was introduced in December 1983.*

*Features*
*The MFI-17 features two integral fuel tanks that carry 48gal of fuel. It also houses an electrical fuel pump for emergency missions. The aircraft is fitted with a Bendix fuel injection system, dual flight control systems, tricycle type landing gear, electrical trim, rudder pedals, ailerons and environmental control system.*

*It boasts a large luggage compartment on the rear side of the cockpit, which can be easily accessed through a door on the port side of the fuselage.*

*Cockpit*
*The spacious glass cockpit of the Mushshak accommodates two crew members, a student pilot and an instructor. It is fitted with two adjustable seats integrated with lockable inertia reels, and there is an option for a third seat on the rear side. The round glass canopy offers clear visibility to the crew. An Enviro R-134 air conditioning system maintains constant temperature in the cockpit.*

*The cockpit is equipped with UHF radios, GPS, a voice-over recorder, automatic direction finder, rate of climb indicator, attitude heading reference system and an information friend or foe transponder.*

*Armaments*
*The aircraft comprises six hardpoints. It is armed with two 7.62mm cannons, two 75mm unguided rocket pods, four 68mm unguided rocket pods and six anti-tank missiles.*

*Engines*

*The Mushshak is powered by an AEIO-360A1B6 horizontally opposed four-cylinder piston aircraft engine, which generates 149kW of output power. The engine is designed and manufactured by Textron Lycoming. It is a fuel injected engine driven by two bladed constant speed hartzell propeller made up of aluminium.*

*The time between overhauls of the engine is 2,000 hours.*

*Performance*
*The Mushshak can climb at the rate of 5.2m/s. The maximum and cruise speeds of the aircraft are 238km/h and 210km/h respectively. The stall speed is 100km/h. The range and service ceiling are 800km and 4,100m respectively. The aircraft can loiter in air for a maximum of five hours ten minutes.*

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MFI-17 Mushshak Basic Trainer Aircraft - Airforce Technology

*MFI-395 Super Mushshak Trainer Aircraft, Pakistan*





MFI-395 Super Mushshak is a military trainer / light attack aircraft designed and manufactured by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF). It was derived from the MFI-17 Mushshak trainer aircraft. Approximately 300 MFI-395s are currently operational at the academies of the Pakistan Armed Forces.
*Previous orders to the PAF, RSAF and Royal Air Force of Oman*

Customer orders for the MFI-395 included: PAF (50), RSAF (20) and Royal Air Force of Oman (five).
The PAF received its first Super Mushshak in May 2001. Deliveries to the Royal Air Force of Oman were concluded in 2004.
*Designed to suit military and civilian missions*

The MFI-395 was designed to provide primary flight training to the pilots of the PAF Academy situated at Risalpur. It was designed to suit both military and civilian missions. The aircraft's design is compliant with the US FAR 23 certification standards in aerobatics and utility classes.
The tricycle type undercarriage allows the aircraft to operate from unprepared airstrips and rough airfields, even in hostile conditions.
*Pakistan's MFI-395 training aircraft development*

The development of the MFI-395 started in 1995. The aircraft was built by upgrading the MFI-17 with an advanced 260hp engine, electrical instruments, dual flight control systems and a Bendix RSA fuel injection system.

The maiden flight of the Super Mushshak took place in August 1996. The production aircraft was rolled out in November 2000. It entered service in May 2001 and was certified by the Pakistan Civil Aviation Authority in 2002.

It was displayed at the Dubai Air Show held in November 2011.

*Features and spacious cockpit of the MFI-395 Super Mushshak*
The MFI-395 features a high wing monoplane design. It boasts two integral fuel tanks which carry 47 gallons of fuel. The large baggage compartment located aft of the cockpit can be easily accessed through a door on the rear side of the fuselage.

The Super Mushshak is equipped with a blind screen, which allows the aircraft to carry out instrument flying missions.

The spacious glass cockpit of the MFI-395 accommodates two flight crew members, a student pilot and a flight instructor. It is integrated with two ejection seats adjacent to each other, with an option for third seat at the rear side. It is enclosed by an oval shaped glass canopy which opens upwards to meliorate the visibility.

The cockpit is equipped with two multifunctional displays to exhibit data related to navigation, flight instrumentation, fuel and the engine. It is also equipped with an Enviro R-134 air conditioning system to sustain constant temperature.

*Avionics installed on the military trainer / light attack aircraft*
The avionics suite incorporated in the MFI-395 includes instrument flight rules (IFR) capable electronic flight instrumentation system (EFIS), a global positioning system, instrument landing system, voice over recorder, UHF radio, automatic direction finder, distance measuring equipment and information friend or foe transponder.

*Missiles and gunpods of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex's aircraft*
The MFI-395 is fitted with six hardpoints under the wing pylons. The inner two stressed hardpoints can carry up to 150kg each. The remaining four carry rockets, gunpods and Bofor Bantam anti-tank missiles.

*Lycoming engines and performance of PAC's MFI-395 Super Mushshak*
The MFI-395 is powered by Lycoming IO-540 V4A5 six-cylinder engine rated at 194kW (260hp) of output power. The engine is driven by a two-bladed Hartzell propeller which can rotate at a constant speed of 2,700rpm.

The dry weight of the engine is 199kg. The time between overhaul is 2,000 hours.

The MFI-395 can climb at the rate of 8.6m/s. The never exceed and maximum speeds of the aircraft are 363km/h and 268km/h respectively. The cruise speed is 240km/h. The stall speed is 96km/h. The maximum range and service ceiling are 814km and 6.7km respectively. The maximum endurance is 4 hours 15 minutes.

MFI-395 Super Mushshak Trainer Aircraft - Airforce Technology



















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Pakistan to supply Super Mushak trainer aircraft to Iraq









Pakistan today signed a key agreement with Iraq for the supply of trainer aircraft to Iraqi Air Force, in what is billed as "major milestone" in the export of aviation products from the country.

The contract of sales of Super Mushshak Aircraft to Iraq was signed by General Anwer Hamad Ameen Ahmed, Commander Iraqi Air Force and Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan, Chairman of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra.

Super Mushshak is a more advanced, upgraded variant of the MFI-17 Mushshak basic trainer.

It was designed and is being manufactured at the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory.

"The sale of Super Mashshak aircraft to Iraqi Air Force is a major milestone in the export of aviation products of Pakistan," a statement released by the Prime Minister's Office said.

The statement did not mention how many aircraft will be sold.

Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif said that Pakistan will provide assistance to Iraq in fields of training and development.

He said Pakistan Air Force has a past a rich experience in training personnel of friendly countries and will, undoubtedly, assist in developing Iraqi Air Force on modern grounds.

He said this in a meeting with General Ahmed, who called on him at Prime Minister's house.

Federal Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanvir Hussain and Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt were also present at the occasion.

In total two agreements were signed including the one for sale of the trainer aircraft.




According to the first agreement Pakistan Air Force will provide Training, to Iraq Air Defence Force personnel, in all sphere of Modern Air Force concept pertaining to different field special Air Defence, and Air Crew.

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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore

Now that this aircraft has joined various airforces, it really deserves its own thread ... Guys, lets post related info in this stuck thread from now on
regards

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## TOPGUN

A really outstanding aircraft , I would love to see it in a armed version though

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## Manticore

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - Mushshak Aircraft

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## Manticore

Aircraft of comparable role, configuration and era most of which are out of production 

Aermacchi SF.260
Beechcraft T-34 Mentor
ENAER T-35 Pillán
Fuji T-3
Lasta 95
PAC CT/4 Airtrainer
Socata TB-31 Omega
Grob G-120


Valmet L-70 Vinka

Saab Safari

Sequoia Falco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Saab 91 Safir

Scottish Aviation Bulldog

Valmet L-70 Vinka


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## Manticore

oman









syria

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## Manticore

south africa



Saab T-17 Supporter



QUOTE]
*MFI 15 – Saab Safari 

*
Saab Safari is a light, robust, single piston-engined, two-three seat aircraft with a structure of predominantly allmetal stressed-skin construction. As standard the aircraft is equipped with a tricycle landing gear.

Saab Safari is deigned and developed by Saab-Scania, Aerospace Division. The basic role of the Saab Safari is to operate as:


a primary trainer for civil and military flying schools
an airline pilot trainer for e.g. navigation system and airway procedure training.
In addition to its primary role as a trainer the aircraft is also very suitable for utility operations such as carrying and dropping of relief and rescue packages from under wing stations. The aircraft is stable with great flexibility. Carl-Gustav von Rosen chose this aircraft for food dropping in Etiopia in the 1970s. The flying conditions were extreme with airstrips at 3 000 meters above sea level. It was after this operation the aircraft got the name Safari.

*MFI 17 – Saab Supporter*
The flexibility of the Saab Safari led to a development of a military version, called MFI 17 Supporter. The danish airforce chose in 1974 Saab Supporter as their new trainer and bougth totally 32 aircraft. The most successful export was the same year when the Pakistani airforce ordered 39 aircraft. This order was followed by a licensed manufacturing of the Saab Supporter in Pakistan, under the name Mushshak, and up until now 450 aircraft has been manufactured. The Pakistani aifrorce developed a Super Mushshak with a stronger engine and a three blade propeller.

[/QUOTE]

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## Manticore

Zambian Air Force MFI-15

http://i.imgur.com/bePq2kc.png


MFI-15/Saab Safari/MFI-17 Supporter
/PAF Mushak Picture collection and
info for model builders.
Scale documentation for Saab Safari/Supporter

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## Manticore

saudi mushak?

Canopy of Mushshak aircraft undergoing development at Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF), PAC Kamra.Mfi-17 Gallery : Pakistan Air Force Wallpapers

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## Manticore

SAAB MFI-17 Supporter/Safari

Malmo MFI-17

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex / PAC Mushshak
SAAB MFI-17 Supporter / Safari






MFI had then been de-veloping the MFI- 15A when Saab acquired Malmö Flygindustri (MFI) in 1968. The airplane made its maiden flight on 11 July 1969. As then flown it was powered by a 119kW Avco Lycoming IO-320-B2 flat-four engine and had a conventional low-set tailplane, but this was modified subsequently to T-tail configuration to minimise damage when operating from rough airfields. Later renamed Safari and then further developed into MFI-17 Supporter armed ground-support version. The plane was converted into an efficient weapons carrier by increasing the engine power and making some structural modifications - measures which greatly enhanced its military potential. The new version - the MFI-17 - made its first flight on 6 July 1972.

The prototype was flown on 26 February 1971 with a more powerful Avco Lycoming engine, which became the standard powerplant for the production version, which was re-designated Saab Safari. A braced shoulder-wing monoplane with fixed tricycle landing gear, available optionally with tailwheel landing gear, it provides side-by-side enclosed accommodation for two and has dual controls as standard. 

A military version designated originally Saab-MFI 17 was flown on 6 July 1972 and differed from the Safari by being equipped more specifically for use as a military trainer, or for such duties as artillery observation, forward air control and liaison; this version was later named Saab Supporter. 

The first purely military version, named the Supporter, was sold to Pakistan (where it was built under license as the Mushshak) in 1974. Further sales to Denmark, Norway and Zambia followed. A civilian version named the Safari was also sold to countries including Norway, Sierra Leone and Ethiopia. Counting both versions, more than 200 of the aircraft were built.





Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Super Mushshak

Licence production of the Saab MFI-17 Supporter two/three-seat piston-engined trainer and liaison aircraft continued at Kamra for the Pakistan Air Force and Army in 1987 by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, as the Mushshak. Assembly of Swedish-made kits began in 1976, but complete aircraft are now manufactured in Pakistan using imported raw materials, engines, propellers, and avionics equipment. Licence-production of this aircraft was started in Pakistan during 1976, initially from kits supplied by Saab, but there has been a gradual change to indigenous manufacture from raw materials. Designated Mushshak in Pakistan, more than 150 have been built. Complete aircraft were manufactured in Pakistan using imported raw materials, engines, propellers, and avionics equipment.

Most of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Mushshak were upgraded to the more powerful Super Mushshak with a Lycoming 260 hp engine. Some Mushshaks, promoted as very light strike and weapons training aircraft, served with the Iranian Revolutionary Guards.

In August 1978 Saab flew a version of the Safari with a 157kW Continental flat-six turbocharged engine; designated Safari TS it did not progress beyond the prototype stage. 

Saab built a combined total of about 250 Safari/Supporter aircraft before production ended in the late 1970s. 

Military Supporters were supplied to the Pakistan air force and army (45), Royal Danish air force (32, which designated it T-17) and Zambian air force (20). 

*Saab Safari*
Engine: 1 x Avco Lycoming IO-360-A1B6, 149kW / 200 hp
Max take-off weight: 1200 kg / 2646 lb
Loaded weight: 646 kg / 1424 lb
Wingspan: 8.85 m / 29 ft 0 in
Length: 7.0 m / 22 ft 11 in
Height: 2.6 m / 9 ft 6 in
Wing area: 11.9 sq.m / 128.09 sq ft
Max. speed: 235 km/h / 146 mph
Cruising speed: 208 km/h (129 mph)
Landing speed: 90 km/h (56 mph)
Range: 1050 km (650 miles) 
Ceiling: 4100 m / 13450 ft





Saab-MFI 15/17 Safari-Supporter

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## jawadqamar

Official
Confirmation of the deal from PAC






Read more: Pakistan Secures Deal Worth $94 million To Supply 20 Super Mushak Trainers

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## Doritos11

What kind of weaponry can it carry, are we talking about something like Hydra 70mm unguided rockets ?

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## Armstrong

Doritos11 said:


> What kind of weaponry can it carry, are we talking about something like Hydra 70mm unguided rockets ?



The MFI-395 is fitted with six hardpoints under the wing pylons. The inner two stressed hardpoints can carry up to 150kg each. The remaining four carry rockets, gunpods and Bofor Bantam anti-tank missiles.

If the Hydras are around 7kg whilst the Bantams are around 8 kg - Maybe they can !

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## Doritos11

Armstrong said:


> The MFI-395 is fitted with six hardpoints under the wing pylons. The inner two stressed hardpoints can carry up to 150kg each. The remaining four carry rockets, gunpods and Bofor Bantam anti-tank missiles.
> 
> If the Hydras are around 7kg whilst the Bantams are around 8 kg - Maybe they can !



That’s good for such an aircraft, but I don’t think they will arm them, T6 texan II class turboprop aircraft are more flexible for such light COIN roles.

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## razgriz19

Doritos11 said:


> That’s good for such an aircraft, but I don’t think they will arm them, T6 texan II class turboprop aircraft are more flexible for such light COIN roles.



eexactly. And no pointin arming them anyway, puts a lot stress on the air frame.


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## Rashid Mahmood

*Cockpit*
Spacious side by side cockpit giving contact between the pilot and the co-pilot / observer or between the student and the instructor for effective "watch me" instruction.

Adjustable seats fitted with straps incorporating auto lock inertia reels Typical avionics equipment configuration includes UHF/ VHF radio, GPS, VOR, Transponder, ADF etc.

Third crew member can be accommodated in the rear cabin

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## SBD-3



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## ejaz007

*Pakistan Sells Trainer Aircraft to Iraq, Seeks Further Contracts*

*ISLAMABAD* — Pakistan on Monday signed deals to supply basic trainer aircraft to the Iraqi Air Force and help train its personnel, sparking hopes it can secure further deals as the Middle Eastern country tries to rebuild its air arm.

Analysts are generally skeptical large-scale deals will be in the offing, but concede it is possible.

The Associated Press of Pakistan reported that agreements to provide training and development assistance for the Iraqi Air Force and for Super Mushak trainer planes were signed by the head of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, and the commander of Iraq’s Air Force, Gen. Anwer Hamad Amen Ahmed.

A nine-member Iraqi defense delegation, which included the commander of Iraqi air defense, Gen. Jabbar Ubaid Kedhum, has been in Pakistan since last week, visiting facilities such as the Air Force academy at Risalpur and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex at Kamra, the home of Pakistan’s aviation industry.

According to a government press release, they also met with Pakistan’s minister for defense production, Tanveer Hussain, and were offered training and the full range of training aircraft, from basic propeller-driven planes to intermediate jets, plus communication equipment.

Defense Ministry officials here would not comment on the number of aircraft involved or the value of the Iraqi deal.

However, analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said 20 aircraft, including training and spares, are being acquired for US $94 million.

The Super Mushak, a propeller-driven, two- to three-seat aircraft, is a Pakistani version of the Swedish Saab Safari/Supporter. With some modifications, it was built under license as the MFI-17 Mushak (Proficient), and serves with Pakistan’s Air Force and Army.

It is used for primary and basic flight training; instrument, night, navigation and formation flying; liaison; and forward air control. Six under-wing hardpoints can carry a range of light rockets, bombs and gun pods.

Pakistan has exported the aircraft to Egypt, Iran, Oman, Saudi Arabia and Syria.

The Super Mushak features a more powerful 260-horsepower Textron Lycoming six-cylinder engine, electrical instrumentation, dual controls and a fuel injection system.

Twenty each are in service with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and it is a contender for Turkey’s basic trainer program.

The aircraft “is a very good buy, considering that it has an up-rated engine and glass cockpit now. It is a proven design and will serve them well,” Shabbir said.

But overall, Shabbir said the training deal is more important.

“The [Pakistan Air Force] trained Iraqi pilots in the past, [along with Iranian pilots during the Shah’s time], and this will open up further opportunities for both countries,” he said.

The training deal is for basic pilot training and worth US $90 million. Shabbir is optimistic about further deals, such as a C4I system similar to one sold to Bangladesh, and perhaps UAVs.

Despite this success, Brian Cloughley, a former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, , said Pakistan’s ability to secure further large-scale equipment deals is uncertain.

“From all accounts, the Iraqi delegation’s visit to Pakistan went very well, and they were especially impressed by the aeronautical complex at Kamra,” he said.

However, “The problem for Pakistan, so far as provision of manufactured aircraft is concerned, is that the Iraqis have already purchased almost all they need elsewhere. The Mushak is an excellent aircraft of its type, and it is good for Pakistan that a sale has been made, but in comparative terms, there isn’t much money involved,” he added.

Even the offer of further training deals may be too late.

“Pakistan is very keen to offer training to the Iraqi Air Force, but this is already being effected in the US for pilots, and ground crew have been learning English in Jordan,” Cloughley said.

“South Korea is also training pilots for the T-50IQs being supplied, and there is some training carried out elsewhere,” he added.

The South Korean KAI T-50 Golden Eagle is an advanced trainer jet/light multirole fighter. It is being developed into the FA-50 lead-in fighter trainer/light fighter.

Though it appears the mainstay of Iraq’s airpower will be 36 F-16IQ fighter jets, the future composition of Iraq’s Air Force is uncertain, and whether the FA-50 may interest Iraq is unknown.

At the same time, Pakistan has been promoting the somewhat similar Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder, and has showcased it to Iraqi officials.

Shabbir said that despite the acquisition of the T-50s, if Iraq is to opt for a high-low combination of aircraft types, Pakistan could have a chance.

Past deals indicate Pakistan could still secure some further defense sales, he said.

“Iraq has also bought armored vehicles ... from Pakistan as well, and there is a good chance of Pakistan bagging some of the small arms and ammunition [mortar and artillery] contracts,” he said.

Iraq purchased 44 Talha tracked armored personnel carriers and 60 Mohafiz internal security vehicles from Pakistan in 2006. ■

*Email: uansari@defensenews.com.

Pakistan Sells Trainer Aircraft to Iraq, Seeks Further Contracts | Defense News | defensenews.com*

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## Manticore

*Price*
PakistaniAviation.com Pakistan Aviation Pak
Super Mushshak's exact price is unknown.

Mushshak Light 5 is Pakistani Rupees 6 million (Rs. 60 Lakhs)

NOTE: The price of Pakistani Rs 6 million is of a version of Mushshak which is called "Mushshak Light 5". This (Mushshak Light 5) aircraft is non-aerobatic and not of military use. Pakistan Aeronautical Complex have introduced this aircraft only for the in-country private sector to generate/help grow the aviation market. Additionally the price is also introductory price for initial few buyers. The Super Mushshak which has vast capabilities, when compared to Mushshak Light 5, is a much costlier aircraft.

------------
Is the cost of super mushshak 5mil for iraq? what was the unit cost for SA and oman?

@Aeronaut


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## fatman17

USD5m / aircraft??? - dosnt make sense!


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## Manticore

fatman17 said:


> USD5m / aircraft??? - dosnt make sense!


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## Luftwaffe

fatman17 said:


> USD5m / aircraft??? - dosnt make sense!


 
Pilatus PC-9M is $6.2m I think you are right!

PC-9 mk2 which is actually Beechcraft T-6A Texan II which is under license product now developed by Beechcraft costs around 6 to 6.5m

But if 20 S.Mushak are sold for 90m means around 4.5m each, i thought it would cost 1 or 2m each at the most.


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## nomi007

hope iraq's will also purchase jf-17 thunder and k-8 trainer aircrafts from pakistan


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## SBD-3

nomi007 said:


> hope iraq's will also purchase jf-17 thunder and k-8 trainer aircrafts from pakistan


They already are procuring Falcons as their front-liner. Plus, of course, perhaps they can foot the bill for a basic trainer themselves but a fighter procurement program is an altogether different story financially where they are being funded by US for Falcons.


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## Arsalan

This is a good deal and the way forward. If We want our military to grow and be strong, the right way is to generate funds by making things we can and selling these.

Once this, as an industry, gets rolling the private sector comes into play and this is what makes stronger defense sector. See what is happening in USA, it is Lockheed martin and Boeing that have made US a military super power.


I hope that the sale of Mushkaq is followed up by some other goods with good potential in export market like JF-17, APC, tanks etc and that the funds generated through this deals goes into development of these platforms rather than buying stuff from foreign supplier.


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## Luftwaffe

hasnain0099 said:


> but a fighter procurement program is an altogether different story financially where they are being funded by US for Falcons.


 
F-16 purchase is from Iraq's own pocket US did not fund it at all!.

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## SBD-3

Luftwaffe said:


> F-16 purchase is from Iraq's own pocket US did not fund it at all!.


I stand corrected, thanks!


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## Kompromat

Awesome work.

@Manticore


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Manticore said:


> Super Mushshak's exact price is unknown.
> 
> Mushshak Light 5 is Pakistani Rupees 6 million (Rs. 60 Lakhs)
> 
> NOTE: The price of Pakistani Rs 6 million is of a version of Mushshak which is called "Mushshak Light 5". This (Mushshak Light 5) aircraft is non-aerobatic and not of military use. Pakistan Aeronautical Complex have introduced this aircraft only for the in-country private sector to generate/help grow the aviation market. Additionally the price is also introductory price for initial few buyers. The Super Mushshak which has vast capabilities, when compared to Mushshak Light 5, is a much costlier aircraft.
> 
> ------------
> Is the cost of super mushshak 5mil for iraq? what was the unit cost for SA and oman?
> 
> @Aeronaut





fatman17 said:


> USD5m / aircraft??? - dosnt make sense!



Price of Super Mashak was PKR 7500000 in 2011-12 but this was not final. If a large quantity is ordered it reduces.


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## Nishan_101

jawadqamar said:


> Official
> Confirmation of the deal from PAC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: Pakistan Secures Deal Worth $94 million To Supply 20 Super Mushak Trainers



Pakistan should also market it as a surveillance aircraft too. I am sure that IRAQ might going to buy more than 20 may be 35-55 of these. Also Pakistan's PAC should make up teams and bring in Military or Security Personals from Africa, South America and Asian regions to see PAC products and other products of their interest. I am sure Pakistan could easily sell 200 Super Mushak in 5 years and can also build 110 for their own needs as well.



ejaz007 said:


> *Pakistan Sells Trainer Aircraft to Iraq, Seeks Further Contracts*
> 
> *ISLAMABAD* — Pakistan on Monday signed deals to supply basic trainer aircraft to the Iraqi Air Force and help train its personnel, sparking hopes it can secure further deals as the Middle Eastern country tries to rebuild its air arm.
> 
> Analysts are generally skeptical large-scale deals will be in the offing, but concede it is possible.
> 
> The Associated Press of Pakistan reported that agreements to provide training and development assistance for the Iraqi Air Force and for Super Mushak trainer planes were signed by the head of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, and the commander of Iraq’s Air Force, Gen. Anwer Hamad Amen Ahmed.
> 
> A nine-member Iraqi defense delegation, which included the commander of Iraqi air defense, Gen. Jabbar Ubaid Kedhum, has been in Pakistan since last week, visiting facilities such as the Air Force academy at Risalpur and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex at Kamra, the home of Pakistan’s aviation industry.
> 
> According to a government press release, they also met with Pakistan’s minister for defense production, Tanveer Hussain, and were offered training and the full range of training aircraft, from basic propeller-driven planes to intermediate jets, plus communication equipment.
> 
> Defense Ministry officials here would not comment on the number of aircraft involved or the value of the Iraqi deal.
> 
> However, analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said 20 aircraft, including training and spares, are being acquired for US $94 million.
> 
> The Super Mushak, a propeller-driven, two- to three-seat aircraft, is a Pakistani version of the Swedish Saab Safari/Supporter. With some modifications, it was built under license as the MFI-17 Mushak (Proficient), and serves with Pakistan’s Air Force and Army.
> 
> It is used for primary and basic flight training; instrument, night, navigation and formation flying; liaison; and forward air control. Six under-wing hardpoints can carry a range of light rockets, bombs and gun pods.
> 
> Pakistan has exported the aircraft to Egypt, Iran, Oman, Saudi Arabia and Syria.
> 
> The Super Mushak features a more powerful 260-horsepower Textron Lycoming six-cylinder engine, electrical instrumentation, dual controls and a fuel injection system.
> 
> Twenty each are in service with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and it is a contender for Turkey’s basic trainer program.
> 
> The aircraft “is a very good buy, considering that it has an up-rated engine and glass cockpit now. It is a proven design and will serve them well,” Shabbir said.
> 
> But overall, Shabbir said the training deal is more important.
> 
> “The [Pakistan Air Force] trained Iraqi pilots in the past, [along with Iranian pilots during the Shah’s time], and this will open up further opportunities for both countries,” he said.
> 
> The training deal is for basic pilot training and worth US $90 million. Shabbir is optimistic about further deals, such as a C4I system similar to one sold to Bangladesh, and perhaps UAVs.
> 
> Despite this success, Brian Cloughley, a former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, , said Pakistan’s ability to secure further large-scale equipment deals is uncertain.
> 
> “From all accounts, the Iraqi delegation’s visit to Pakistan went very well, and they were especially impressed by the aeronautical complex at Kamra,” he said.
> 
> However, “The problem for Pakistan, so far as provision of manufactured aircraft is concerned, is that the Iraqis have already purchased almost all they need elsewhere. The Mushak is an excellent aircraft of its type, and it is good for Pakistan that a sale has been made, but in comparative terms, there isn’t much money involved,” he added.
> 
> Even the offer of further training deals may be too late.
> 
> “Pakistan is very keen to offer training to the Iraqi Air Force, but this is already being effected in the US for pilots, and ground crew have been learning English in Jordan,” Cloughley said.
> 
> “South Korea is also training pilots for the T-50IQs being supplied, and there is some training carried out elsewhere,” he added.
> 
> The South Korean KAI T-50 Golden Eagle is an advanced trainer jet/light multirole fighter. It is being developed into the FA-50 lead-in fighter trainer/light fighter.
> 
> Though it appears the mainstay of Iraq’s airpower will be 36 F-16IQ fighter jets, the future composition of Iraq’s Air Force is uncertain, and whether the FA-50 may interest Iraq is unknown.
> 
> At the same time, Pakistan has been promoting the somewhat similar Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder, and has showcased it to Iraqi officials.
> 
> Shabbir said that despite the acquisition of the T-50s, if Iraq is to opt for a high-low combination of aircraft types, Pakistan could have a chance.
> 
> Past deals indicate Pakistan could still secure some further defense sales, he said.
> 
> “Iraq has also bought armored vehicles ... from Pakistan as well, and there is a good chance of Pakistan bagging some of the small arms and ammunition [mortar and artillery] contracts,” he said.
> 
> Iraq purchased 44 Talha tracked armored personnel carriers and 60 Mohafiz internal security vehicles from Pakistan in 2006. ■
> 
> *Email: uansari@defensenews.com.
> 
> Pakistan Sells Trainer Aircraft to Iraq, Seeks Further Contracts | Defense News | defensenews.com*



May be PAC will further supply them with 35 more Super Mushak and 50 K-8s and around 70+ JF-17s Block-IIs.

UAVs from PAC-NESCOM-GIDS-ID


Wanted to know what HIT, POF and KS&EWs are offering them???

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## M.AsfandYar

nomi007 said:


> hope iraq's will also purchase jf-17 thunder and k-8 trainer aircrafts from pakistan


i think K-8s belong to chinese.


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## fatman17

Assailiant said:


> i think K-8s belong to chinese.


 
PAC has 25% share.

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## fatman17



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## Black Eagle 90

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 25777


Why not market it in Africa and South America

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## DANGER-ZONE

*^ Come on ban this guy already !*

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## HAIDER

Oman Air Force

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## nana41

Manticore said:


> Now that this aircraft has joined various airforces, it really deserves its own thread ... Guys, lets post related info in this stuck thread from now on
> regards[/quote
> 
> 
> Manticore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that this aircraft has joined various airforces, it really deserves its own thread ... Guys, lets post related info in this stuck thread from now on
> regards
> 
> 
> 
> Since Mushshaq(correct spellings) has been ,and will be made in big numbers,are we manufacturing the engine locally,under licence,or we lost that opportunity,like so many other.
Click to expand...


Since Mushshaq(correct spellings) has been,and will be made in big numbers,are we manufacturing the engine locally,under licence, or we lost that opportunity as well,like some other?.


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## nana41

fatman17 said:


> PAC has 25% share.


Since,Chinese new twin engine jet trainer has not come up to its expectations internally and `externally` ,perhaps Pakistan should tempt them into developing a stretched version of K-8(should be Q-8,Q for Quraqurum) with a small aesa radar,as a 50/50 joint venture.


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## nana41

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Why not market it in Africa and South America


...and United States of America as well.Can we not out price the local competitor in the same class of machine?


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## Munir

Iraci block52 f16's will have as bvr aim7 sparrow. I think we can contribute with 36 block2 jf17 for 1/3 of the price but a real bvr...


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## nana41

Misnir said:


> Iraci block52 f16's will have as bvr aim7 sparrow. I think we can contribute with 36 block2 jf17 for 1/3 of the price but a real bvr...


If SD-10 Is not a real thing, what alternative is being arranged for Thunder?


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## Luftwaffe

nana41 said:


> If SD-10 Is not a real thing, what alternative is being arranged for Thunder?



SD-10A is real thing. More advance PL 10/13 medium/long range missile is in development.


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## nana41

Lufiswaffe said:


> SD-10A is real thing. More advance PL 10/13 medium/long range missile is in development.


Munir, who Is a pilot mentioned "real bvr"/42*.


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## burraak

So its engine is of US origion, Do we produce it locally (under license) or import it directly from USA?


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## razgriz19

burraak said:


> So its engine is of US origion, Do we produce it locally (under license) or import it directly from USA?


we import it from US


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## fatman17

good detailing by manticore - thanks!

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## fatman17



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## fatman17

PAF Mushshak

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## Awais Munawar

If Mushshak Aircraft is so capable for the training of newly recruited pilots and is approved by the CAA Pakistan; why its is not being used in Civil Aviation Industry of Pakistan? What are the core reasons? Is it not supposed to be a good trainer for civilian pilots or this is so expensive to be used in Civil Aviation (in terms of airplane cost, fuel consumption and parts availability)? Most of the flying clubs in Pakistan own Cessna for pilot trainings and is imported from foreign countries which definitely costs a lot of money in terms of shipping and custom tax. If PAC starts to sell these aircrafts to civilians this cost can be minimized according to rule of thumb and will provide business to PAC as well. Now the availability of parts and fuel consumption matters; what is your review regarding Mushshak's sale and its aspects on aviation industry..?

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## fatman17

Awais Munawar said:


> If Mushshak Aircraft is so capable for the training of newly recruited pilots and is approved by the CAA Pakistan; why its is not being used in Civil Aviation Industry of Pakistan? What are the core reasons? Is it not supposed to be a good trainer for civilian pilots or this is so expensive to be used in Civil Aviation (in terms of airplane cost, fuel consumption and parts availability)? Most of the flying clubs in Pakistan own Cessna for pilot trainings and is imported from foreign countries which definitely costs a lot of money in terms of shipping and custom tax. If PAC starts to sell these aircrafts to civilians this cost can be minimized according to rule of thumb and will provide business to PAC as well. Now the availability of parts and fuel consumption matters; what is your review regarding Mushshak's sale and its aspects on aviation industry..?


 
Mushshak has civil certification and the Super Mushshak is intended for civil certification. civil aviation is a very small pie in PK at the moment.

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## Reichmarshal

Awais Munawar said:


> If Mushshak Aircraft is so capable for the training of newly recruited pilots and is approved by the CAA Pakistan; why its is not being used in Civil Aviation Industry of Pakistan? What are the core reasons? Is it not supposed to be a good trainer for civilian pilots or this is so expensive to be used in Civil Aviation (in terms of airplane cost, fuel consumption and parts availability)? Most of the flying clubs in Pakistan own Cessna for pilot trainings and is imported from foreign countries which definitely costs a lot of money in terms of shipping and custom tax. If PAC starts to sell these aircrafts to civilians this cost can be minimized according to rule of thumb and will provide business to PAC as well. Now the availability of parts and fuel consumption matters; what is your review regarding Mushshak's sale and its aspects on aviation industry..?



All aviation schools in PAK operate second hand ac n mostly with lots of flying hrs on the airframe. They buy them cheap as they r almost past their use by date. PAC is offering a very superior n user friendly product.

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## fatman17

Dubai Air Show

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## fatman17

Mushshak Engine.

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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> Mushshak Engine.


 
What a lovely engine  Made in PAKISTAN

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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> What a lovely engine  Made in PAKISTAN


 
yes via USA

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## LonE_WolF



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## ACE OF THE AIR

LonE_WolF said:


> View attachment 185766


This is an ultralight not Mushshak


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## Basel

Armstrong said:


> The MFI-395 is fitted with six hardpoints under the wing pylons. The inner two stressed hardpoints can carry up to 150kg each. The remaining four carry rockets, gunpods and Bofor Bantam anti-tank missiles.
> 
> If the Hydras are around 7kg whilst the Bantams are around 8 kg - Maybe they can !



Any pics of armed Super Mushshak??

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## rockstar08

sitting in this plane and looking outside , will scared the Sh!t out me 

anyways beautiful plane , and good to see that its getting recognition in international Air forces ..

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## Manticore



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## black-hawk_101

How much does it cost for other air forces as it comes with weapons drop facility tooo?


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## Indian Patriot

All trainer aircraft have a basic weapons load. So the presence of weapons will not affect cost.

@Manticore - How do I start a new thread?


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## Manticore

https://i.imgur.com/paA4NNr.png
click 'post new thread' icon



Indian Patriot said:


> All trainer aircraft have a basic weapons load. So the presence of weapons will not affect cost.
> 
> @Manticore - How do I start a new thread?


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## Indian Patriot

Manticore said:


> click 'post new thread' icon



Thanks, appreciate the help.


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## Armstrong

fatman17 said:


> yes via USA



We can build a nuke but we can't build engines ? Heck forget the military ones even the average motorcycle on our streets are without a Pakistani engine !


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Any pic of Iraqi SMs?


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## syed_yusuf

Armstrong said:


> We can build a nuke but we can't build engines ? Heck forget the military ones even the average motorcycle on our streets are without a Pakistani engine !



This is very true but you have given an extreme case.

Pakistan need to invest in engine technology. And Pakistan do build motorcycle and car engines.


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## MastanKhan

Armstrong said:


> We can build a nuke but we can't build engines ? Heck forget the military ones even the average motorcycle on our streets are without a Pakistani engine !



Hi,

That shows you how difficult it is to build an engine.

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## Sine Nomine

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That shows you how difficult it is to build an engine.


Not a rocket science if Pakistan is capable to built Rockt motors then it's not a big deal only you need is lot of facilities at start,some engine are being manufactured in Pakistan.


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## Armstrong

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That shows you how difficult it is to build an engine.



No it shows me that a country that can build a nuke can very easily build an engine but we're either not funneling enough resources into R&D or we're just indifferent to the whole thing. And mind you here I'm not talking about building a jet-engine....heck not even a prop-engine for the Mushak because here I'm lamenting the fact that we can't or we won't even build a damn car engine for the cars that roam our streets - it comes from Japan. 

Granted that building an engine for the Jf-17 is well beyond us and perhaps even building an engine for the Mushahak maybe beyond us too but can't we even build it for our bikes and our cars ?


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## Sine Nomine

Armstrong said:


> Granted that building an engine for the Jf-17 is well beyond us and perhaps even building an engine for the Mushahak maybe beyond us too but can't we even build it for our bikes and our cars ?


Building jet engine is tough game china alone has spent 100$billion on it but building mushak type engine is easy game but still Pakistan should go for license production for RD-93 because if Pak inducts 200+ and exports it will be huge deal.

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## razgriz19

Armstrong said:


> We can build a nuke but we can't build engines ? Heck forget the military ones even the average motorcycle on our streets are without a Pakistani engine !



to build an engine, a country needs to have a solid base in metallurgical science. As far as I know, we are light years behind in that department.
In essence, a turbine is a very simple machine. (And yes i have taken it a part) Complexity arrive when trying to make it reliable and efficient and all the while keeping it light weight.



قناص said:


> Building jet engine is tough game china alone has spent 100$billion on it but building mushak type engine is easy game but still Pakistan should go for license production for RD-93 because if Pak inducts 200+ and exports it will be huge deal.



where did you pull that number from? $100 billion? seems far fetched brother

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## Armstrong

razgriz19 said:


> to build an engine, a country needs to have a solid base in metallurgical science. As far as I know, we are light years behind in that department.
> In essence, a turbine is a very simple machine. (And yes i have taken it a part) Complexity arrive when trying to make it reliable and efficient and all the while keeping it light weight.



Which is precisely why I'm not expecting Pakistan to build a jet-engine or even build a prop-engine but surely building a car engine shouldn't be so utterly complex that we're still unable to do that ?


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## razgriz19

Armstrong said:


> Which is precisely why I'm not expecting Pakistan to build a jet-engine or even build a prop-engine but surely building a car engine shouldn't be so utterly complex that we're still unable to do that ?



We are more than capable of doing that, although our private sector might not be able to do it as quickly as, lets say HIT, but it is possible.
We have mushak in great numbers, i'm surprised we didn't even try building an aircraft piston engine.
Super Mashak's engine first ran about 60 years ago.
I'm sure if we can involve our engineering universities, this task can be achieved fairly quickly.
I met a gentleman, he was a metallurgist for P&W Canada, but he was working with University of Toronto and its top engineering students to come with better material that they can use for new generation engines. 
That same place also produces micro satellites. (students working on them)

So basically we need to start providing small funds and hold competitions at university level, so we can have a strong base by 2025.

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## Sine Nomine

razgriz19 said:


> where did you pull that number from? $100 billion? seems far fetched brother


Brother it was not done for single Aircraft engine,many types of engine for Helicopters,Jets and Transport Aircraft their metallurgy,manufacturing facilities,software's and testing took this huge sum.

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## MastanKhan

Armstrong said:


> No it shows me that a country that can build a nuke can very easily build an engine but we're either not funneling enough resources into R&D or we're just indifferent to the whole thing. And mind you here I'm not talking about building a jet-engine....heck not even a prop-engine for the Mushak because here I'm lamenting the fact that we can't or we won't even build a damn car engine for the cars that roam our streets - it comes from Japan.
> 
> Granted that building an engine for the Jf-17 is well beyond us and perhaps even building an engine for the Mushahak maybe beyond us too but can't we even build it for our bikes and our cars ?



Hi,

A good 4 cylinder engine is around 3 to 4 billion dollar project nowadayds. Companies likeHuyndai / Kia---Chrysler dodge jeep alfa romeo etc--- even these mega companies cannot afford to build a 4 cyl engine on their own for the last 8 years. Fiat that owns chrysler and other affiliated companies mentioned above has a world engine that is being used by its different product lines.

Same thing with kia and Hyundai---they use same engines----. About 20 years ago a good engine would be around 1 billion dollars ++++. That is why you don't see changes in engines just like that. Once designed----they are modified and modified for over a decade.

A petrol engine is like a fighter aircraft engine---constantly changing environment---from low rpm's one moment to 100 % power the other instance---colds starts---hot starts---freezing starts---.

The early 90's was the last time an independent car manufacturer could design an engine for one of its car lines---now it s all about consolidation ad sharing.



razgriz19 said:


> We are more than capable of doing that, although our private sector might not be able to do it as quickly as, lets say HIT, but it is possible.
> We have mushak in great numbers, i'm surprised we didn't even try building an aircraft piston engine.
> Super Mashak's engine first ran about 60 years ago.
> I'm sure if we can involve our engineering universities, this task can be achieved fairly quickly.
> I met a gentleman, he was a metallurgist for P&W Canada, but he was working with University of Toronto and its top engineering students to come with better material that they can use for new generation engines.
> That same place also produces micro satellites. (students working on them)
> 
> So basically we need to start providing small funds and hold competitions at university level, so we can have a strong base by 2025.




Hi,

My good man---if you don' now about a subject---it is better to ask---than just wing it.

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## fatman17

Investing in such projects like manufacturing engines, one has to consider many parameters. We don't have an aircraft manufacturing industry as such except for the airforce. This is just not enough to invest in such projects which require long R&D lead times and influx of money. It's cheaper to buy off the shelf from countries like Russia, US, China etc which have well established aircraft and engine manufacturing industries for both military and civilian requirements.

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## razgriz19

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> Hi,
> 
> My good man---if you don' now about a subject---it is better to ask---than just wing it.



I don't deny that the fact that i don't have much knowledge on car engines, but let me put it this way.
My professors, one of them worked for ford plant in Canada DESIGNING ENGINES and the other also was a casting engineer and a CEO of a few steel manufacturing companies. I am sharing whatever it is that i observed and learned from them. 

And the point you made about Kia/Hyundai and Chrysler, the cost was the factor there, this is why "Global Engine Alliances" was initiated. 
However since we are so inclined to become self sufficient, auto industry should be included in that list. It's one of the biggest market in Pakistan, and the future of it looks a lot prosper than others.

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## nomi007



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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## nomi007

PAC need to develop more variants of mushshak aircraft
like
tandem cockpit variant like Pilatus *pc-21*
light attack variant like * Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano*
and also light transport aircraft like *KAI KC-100 Naraon*

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## Introvert

*PAF training jet makes emergency landing after technical fault*

Super Mushshaq training jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) made emergency landing in Katlang area of Mardan today (Thursday), Dunya News reported.

According to spokesperson PAF, the emergency landing was made due to a technical fault in the jet while it was on a routine training flight.

However, both the pilots remain safe during the landing whereas inquiry board has been formed in PAF headquarter to probe the incident.

PAF training jet makes emergency landing after technical fault | Pakistan | Dunya News

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## salman77

Baazi said:


> *PAF training jet makes emergency landing after technical fault*
> 
> Super Mushshaq training jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) made emergency landing in Katlang area of Mardan today (Thursday), Dunya News reported.
> 
> According to spokesperson PAF, the emergency landing was made due to a technical fault in the jet while it was on a routine training flight.
> 
> However, both the pilots remain safe during the landing whereas inquiry board has been formed in PAF headquarter to probe the incident.
> 
> PAF training jet makes emergency landing after technical fault | Pakistan | Dunya News



Allah ka shukar hai that there were no casualties.

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## fatman17

Oman air force mushshak


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## black-hawk_101

Why not PAF plans to have turn old MUSHAK into parts n make new SUPER MUSHAK in numbers like 150.


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## niaz

I have a question from people with connection with the PAF. Mashshaaq is based on Saab Supporter which first flew in 1969, nearly half a century ago and has been in PAF service for nearly 40 years. Is PAF considering replacing it with more modern designs such as Pilatus PC-9?

Additionally Mashshaaq is a high wing trainer where most other trainers such as Tucano, Pilatus -9, Deepak etc. are low wing design. Is there any reason as to why PAF prefers a high wing trainer?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

niaz said:


> I have a question from people with connection with the PAF. Mashshaaq is based on Saab Supporter which first flew in 1969, nearly half a century ago and has been in PAF service for nearly 40 years. Is PAF considering replacing it with more modern designs such as Pilatus PC-9?
> 
> Additionally Mashshaaq is a high wing trainer where most other trainers such as Tucano, Pilatus -9, Deepak etc. are low wing design. Is there any reason as to why PAF prefers a high wing trainer?


If PAF is going to replace Mashaaq it would be by Turkish HURKUS. 

This is going to be an interesting read on high and low wing advantages.

High-Wing vs Low-Wing Airplanes
_by Stephen Lewis_

Anyone contemplating the purchase of a single-engine airplane has numerous factors to consider prior to committing to buy. Among the items that warrant attention are acquisition price, insurability, performance characteristics, hangaring, maintenance expenses (both recurring and unforeseen), and direct operating costs â€“ among others. While all such factors are relevant concerns, another item deserving of due consideration is the wing configuration. Though many pilots believe wing position to be largely a matter of personal preference (which it is), there are several other characteristics that enhance (or detract from) a given layout. Below we'll examine the two most common configurations, high wing and low wing, as well as the pros and cons of each arrangement.

Stability
I've yet to meet the general aviation (GA) pilot intent on procuring the most unstable airplane on the market. If you're anything like the average GA flyer, you're on the lookout for a stable flying platform that responds predictably to control inputs and smoothly minimizes the occasional jostle from turbulence. As you might have guessed, wing placement and associated factors play an important role in the inherent lateral stability we can expect from a given configuration.

Dihedral: Wing dihedral is a design feature that contributes to the lateral stability of an airplane. Dihedral appears in the form of a slight â€œVâ€ shape (as viewed facing the plane) that results from the gradual upward angle of the wings as they progress from root to tip. Look at a few planes and you'll see that dihedral is much more prominent in low-wing planes than in their high-wing counterparts. This difference is necessary due to the higher stability inherent to the high-wing configuration.

Why are high wings naturally more (laterally) stable? This results from the sideslip condition that occurs whenever one wing is raised (and the other is lowered) in flight. In high-wing planes, the location of the fuselage (below the wings) causes the relative wind to exert an upward force on the upwind (lowered) wing, therefore helping to return the aircraft to wings-level flight. With low-wing models, the fuselage leads to the relative wind exerting a downward force on the lowered wing, thus exacerbating the condition. Despite this inherent response of low-wing planes to sideslip conditions, the degree of dihedral designed into the wings effectively negates any issues with instability.

Fuel Load/Lateral Balance: Although dihedral can counter the less-than-ideal lateral stability of low-wing designs, it can't overcome the imperfections characteristic of most low-wing fuel systems. In terms of balancing and managing fuel load, high-wing aircraft have an advantage. Since the vast majority of GA airplanes store their fuel tanks in the wings, high-wing planes are able to use gravity to deliver gas to the engine. As such, a fuel pump usually isn't required, and gas from both tanks can be utilized simultaneously. By consuming from both tanks at the same time, the weight of each tanks remains about the same, which contributes to lateral stability.

Because low-wing planes store their fuel below the engine, they require a pump to deliver gas to the cylinders. This usually means only one fuel tank can be used at a time. While not a huge inconvenience, this shortcoming does require pilots to keep an eye on their fuel burn, both to ensure lateral balance and to avoid running a tank dry.

Visibility
Another important factor deserving attention concerns the visibility provided by each type of plane. High wings are great for spotting objects on the surface, but leave a lot to be desired in term of visibility directly above the aircraft. They also require pilots to raise a wing before beginning a turn â€“ a precaution necessary to check for traffic at the same altitude. If your primary mission will involve air-to-surface photography or overhead inspection of powerlines/pipelines/city traffic/wildlife/etc, high wing is the only way to go. If you prefer to gaze at the stars or spot airliners cruising overhead, a low-wing model is probably worth a look.

While low-wing planes offer fantastic visibility at your altitude or above, they're terrible vehicles for checking out the activity below (From personal experience, I can attest that aerial photography flights in a low wing can be maddening). Though visibility is but one of many considerations, don't underestimate the impact it can have on your primary mission for the aircraft. (While we're on the subject, check out this interesting story involving visibility and wing configuration.)

Obstacle Clearance
Though not a factor once airborne, bear in mind the potential for collisions during the surface phase of operations.

Taxi: High wings definitely have an advantage here. Most high-wing planes will have sufficient vertical clearance above such obstacles as fences, lights & signs, snow berms, tugs, and other low-level items. Low-wing flyers don't enjoy the same luxury, and must remain extra vigilant to avoid unpleasant encounters with nearby objects.

Ramp/Hangar: Once on the ramp or in the hangar, birds of a feather definitely should not flock together. This is especially the case at busy GA airports and in shared hangars. If high wings get too close to other high wings or low wings come too close to other low wings, hangar rash and swapped paint will be the inevitable outcome. However, a high wing the same distance (or closer) to a low wing will usually pass right over with nary a touch. If you'll be sharing a hangar with multiple planes (and whenever parking on a GA ramp), seek out the company of the opposite wing configuration to reduce the chance of an unpleasant encounter.

Landing: High wings and low wings are pretty evenly matched when it comes to landing. Low-wing planes will experience greater ground effect, which can be helpful during soft-field takeoffs & landings. However, pilots approaching with extra speed will float more during landing, in which case high-wing flyers have a bit of an advantage.

Another area to consider relates to crosswind components. Although many pilots consider low-wing aircraft to be more stable and easier to handle during crosswinds, such is only the case up to a point. With a significant sidewind, high-wing pilots are able to counter with more wing dip in the direction of the breeze. Try the same thing in a low wing and you're liable to scrape a wingtip on the runway. With this in mind, remember that you always have the option of diverting to an airport with a more favorable runway alignment.

Fueling/Cleaning/Preflighting
When it comes to prepping and preening your bird, low wings win hands down. To fuel a high-wing plane, you'll either need a ladder or should be prepared to climb (and balance) on the wing strut â€“ not an easy task when you're wrestling a hose. Same goes for washing & waxing the wingtops. With low wings, these inconveniences disappear, as you can easily complete all of these tasks with your feet firmly on the ground.

Loading/Unloading
Though there's no significant difference between the two configurations as far as loading & unloading cargo is concerned (although it can vary from model to model), boarding and deplaning passengers might deserve extra attention, particularly for elderly or disabled companions. For limited-motion pax, climbing onto a wing and then descending into a cockpit â€“ not to mention having to reverse the process to exit â€“ can be incredibly difficult (if not impossible) steps. With the high-wing configuration, you're much more likely to be able to assist such passengers into and out of the plane. Additionally, high-wing planes usually feature doors on both sides, whereas many low-wing models have only a single entry & exit door. As an added bonus, overhead wings will help keep your passengers dry if boarding/deplaning during periods of precipitation.

Once of Many Factors
Ultimately, the configuration of an airplane's wings is just one of many aspects that merit analysis. Both layouts have their benefits and drawbacks, though many examples of each arrangement exhibit fine flying qualities. In your search for the ideal single-engine airplane, be sure to base your decision on the overall qualities of the options under consideration. However, don't ignore the potential advantages a given wing arrangement might bring to your unique flying objectives.

Aircraft Intel - View Article

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## fatman17

niaz said:


> I have a question from people with connection with the PAF. Mashshaaq is based on Saab Supporter which first flew in 1969, nearly half a century ago and has been in PAF service for nearly 40 years. Is PAF considering replacing it with more modern designs such as Pilatus PC-9?
> 
> Additionally Mashshaaq is a high wing trainer where most other trainers such as Tucano, Pilatus -9, Deepak etc. are low wing design. Is there any reason as to why PAF prefers a high wing trainer?



Mushshak is a multi purpose aircraft used for basic training and for spotting and locating and directing artillery against the enemy during war time and like the L19 the high wing comes in handy.


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## fatman17

The low wing design has its own advantages like COIN.


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## shahzadaf

This is one B E A U T I FULL aircraft. I wonder if the Kamra folks are making it available for sale in the civil aviation side. 

Super Mushshak outfitted with the Garmin G1000, throw in a USB port for my iPad, a Ram Mount, & a pair of Bose A20s and I am good to go. And while I am day dreaming, two drop tanks for those long cross countrys and a starbucks at every FBO. 

make my way the Red Baron way! - Hey kamra guys, hook me up.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

shahzadaf said:


> This is one B E A U T I FULL aircraft. I wonder if the Kamra folks are making it available for sale in the civil aviation side.
> 
> Super Mushshak outfitted with the Garmin G1000, throw in a USB port for my iPad, a Ram Mount, & a pair of Bose A20s and I am good to go. And while I am day dreaming, two drop tanks for those long cross countrys and a starbucks at every FBO.
> 
> make my way the Red Baron way! - Hey kamra guys, hook me up.
> 
> View attachment 227773


Yes they are going to but it is too expensive. It is not cost effective for the Flying Schools as Cessna-152 is available along with qualified pilots and engineering for half the price.


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## fatman17

shahzadaf said:


> This is one B E A U T I FULL aircraft. I wonder if the Kamra folks are making it available for sale in the civil aviation side.
> 
> Super Mushshak outfitted with the Garmin G1000, throw in a USB port for my iPad, a Ram Mount, & a pair of Bose A20s and I am good to go. And while I am day dreaming, two drop tanks for those long cross countrys and a starbucks at every FBO.
> 
> make my way the Red Baron way! - Hey kamra guys, hook me up.
> 
> View attachment 227773



Mushshak has obtained CAA certification for civilian use.


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## zindapak

A really outstanding aircraft , I would love to see it in a armed version also


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## fatman17

According to Alan Warnes PAF has signed on a MOU with TUAF to set up a training center in Izmir which will induct the Hirkus trainer aircraft. PAF may be looking to replace its Mushshak basic trainer in the near future.

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## Windjammer

PAF SUPER MUSHSHAK OUTSHINES AT ROMANIAN AIR SHOW

Bucharest, Romania 19 June, 2015: The Super Mushshak took off to skies of Bucharest in presence of a gathering of Romanian media and public for performing aerobatics at air show today. The crowed available were left impressed by the aerobatic performance, maneuverability and stability of this indigenously developed light aircraft. A similar aerobatics performance was presented during practice for air show to rally in a huge crowd.
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex team is representing Pakistan for the first time in the history of Romanian Air show amid heightened expectation of expected sales of the Super Mushshak Aircraft that is already being used by various countries in the world.
Pakistan Air Force is flying its aircraft at Bucharest attracting wide coverage of the International media with special presence of two Lady Pilots depicting the soft image of Pakistan in Eastern Europe .The Romanian Air Force is evaluating the Super Mushshak aircraft for induction as Primary Flight Trainer aircraft. Pakistan has recently signed an MoU with Romania for boosting the trade, culture and defence collaboration. Romanian People have extended their over whelming affection towards the team Pakistan.
PAF Contingent led by Chairman PAC Board Air Marshal Javaid Ahmed arrived at Romania for participation in Buchrest Intl Air Show was given befitting reception at Baneasa Intl Airport.

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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## Donatello

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/611915628497272832

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## ACE OF THE AIR

@Windjammer posted this in an other thread.
_*Just got this tweet from a contact. *_

*PAF JF-17 Thunder to fly to Romania for the Bucharest Air show after Paris..... Fly Boys conquering Europe one country at a time.






Sqn Ldr Asad and Sqn Ldr Nadir at JF-17 static display. Day 5.*

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## LonE_WolF

From Romania Air Show

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## LonE_WolF

some more pics

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

China's new basic trainer L7


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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> China's new basic trainer L7


Soon PAC will be producing it or PAF will be importing it.


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## fatman17

black-hawk_101 said:


> Soon PAC will be producing it or PAF will be importing it.



No need

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## Manticore

The Saab-MFI 17, which was scheduled to appear at Farnborough Europe 72, features the lenghtened rear fuselage first utilised by the tailwheel-equipped Saab-MFI 15B. The dual-role Saab-MFI 17 may be fitted with either nosewheel or tailwheel undercarriage. SAAB MFI-17 Supporter









MSK Saab MFI-17 — .

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## fatman17

Mushshak at Dubai Air Show 2015


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


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## Arron Bert

Any pictures of Pakistan's Mushak being armed?

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## nomi007

soon we see armed version mushshak for iraqi airforce


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## denel

There is a good potential for evolving this aircraft further. Lets see if there are any ongoing projects e.g replacing portions with lighter and more tensile materials.

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## Blue Marlin



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## fatman17

Mushshak to undergo several upgrades to improve performance

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## AsifIjaz

Wow... anything huge coming up sir ?


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## fatman17

AsifIjaz said:


> Wow... anything huge coming up sir ?



I don't have complete details but the engine may be uprated.

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## fatman17

Super Mushshak trainer aircraft to be provided to Qatari Air Force 

Posted By: News Deskon: June 24, 2016


ISLAMABAD: (APP) Pakistan on Thursday achieved another landmark in the defence production sector, when Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Qatar Emiri Air Force signed an agreement for supply of Super Mushshak Aircraft to the brotherly nation.

The trainer aircraft supply contract signing ceremony was held at Doha (Qatar), where General Salem Hamid Al Nabet, Commander Air Academy Qatar and Air Vice Marshal Arshad Malik, Deputy Chairman PAC signed the papers representing their respective nations, PAF news release here stated.

PAF contingent comprising Super Mushshak aircraft with its air and ground crew had participated in the Qatar Air Show earlier this year.

Emir of Qatar Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, Prime Minister of Qatar Abdullah bin Nasser bin Khalifa Al Thani and the military high command had shown keen interest in the aircraft and expressed their desire to purchase this state of the art trainer inventory for their Air Force.

The negotiations commenced immediately afterwards and today they have been materialized with formally signing the supply deal.

This contract would not only open new avenues for export of aviation equipment to other countries but also help in generating handful revenue for the country.

The Aircraft is already in service with Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iran and South Africa. The deal comes in succession to another export deal of Super Mushshak Aircraft to Nigeria in early 2016.

The deal further strengthens PAC’s status as a world class aviation industry producing the supersonic JF-17 Thunder and Super Mushshak trainer aircraft.

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## nomi007

any images of armed version of super mushshak?


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## Manticore



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## fatman17

Qatar Emiri Air Force Orders PAC Super Mushshak Trainers

Posted on 26 June, 2016


HH Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, Emir of Qatar, being briefed on February 12 by Air Vice Marshal Ashad Malik, Deputy Chirman of PAC Kamra, about the Super Mushshak during the type’s visit to Doha. Qatar signed a contract last Thursday for an unspecified number of Super Mushshaks. PAF

QATAR HAS become a new customer for Pakistan’s Super Mushshak training aircraft. A contract was signed on June 23 by HE Commander of Al Zaeem Mohamed bin Abdullah Al Attiyah Air College Brigadier (Pilot) Salem Hamad Al Nabet for Qatar and by Deputy Chairman of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra Air Vice Marshal Arshad Malik for Pakistan.

The number of Super Mushshaks involved in the deal was not announced. Brigadier Al Nabet said that the aircraft, which feature a new glass cockpit, will provide the support needed to train pilot candidates in the College and will give a great impetus in the development of the training process. The sale was concluded after two of the type, along with two JF-17 Thunders, were demonstrated in Doha, Qatar, in February this year. The aircraft will join the Qatar Emiri Air Force’s (QEAF’s) new Air Force Academy, acting as basic trainers before pilots progress onto the QEAF’s recently delivered Pilatus PC-21s. AFD-Dave Allport

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## Manticore

http://www.airplanesandrockets.com/...s-american-aircraft-modeler-december-1974.htm


----------



## iPhone

Very beautiful plane. I want one when I retire. Any such private opportunities offered in Pakistan?

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## PDF

iPhone said:


> Very beautiful plane. I want one when I retire. Any such private opportunities offered in Pakistan?








I guess you can even have now as it is CAA certified.

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## denel

They should get into producing ultralights/microlights. there is a huge market for it.


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## nomi007

@*fatman17*
*any picture of mushshak with bombs
*


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> @*fatman17*
> *any picture of mushshak with bombs
> *



Nope


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## Dazzler

*Pakistan Aeronautical Complex exports Super Mushshak Aircraft to Qatar*

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) signed a deal for sale of Super Mushshak Trainer Aircraft with Qatar. Widely acknowledged as Superb Trainer. The Aircraft is already in service with Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iran and South Africa. The deal comes in succession to another export deal of Super Mushshak Aircraft to Nigeria in early 2016. The deal further strengthens PAC’s status as a world class aviation industry producing the supersonic JF-17 Thunder and Super Mushshak Trainer Aircraft.

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## fatman17

At South African air show


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## Windjammer

Mushshak now seems to be supporting a JF-17 type antenna behind the cockpit.

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## LadyFinger

What are these?


Manticore said:


>


@Windjammer


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## Windjammer

LadyFinger said:


> What are these?
> @Windjammer


It must be front panel of Mushshak aircraft.

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## muhammadali233

LadyFinger said:


> What are these?
> @Windjammer


mfds (glass cockpit), supposedly garmin kit used.



Windjammer said:


> Mushshak now seems to be supporting a JF-17 type antenna behind the cockpit.


peto if i i am spelling it right,used for situational awareness,gives pilot info about the outer temp,heading etc to pilot on his mfds.

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## R!CK

muhammadali233 said:


> mfds (glass cockpit), supposedly garmin kit used.
> 
> 
> *peto* if i i am spelling it right,used for situational awareness,gives pilot info about the outer temp,heading etc to pilot on his mfds.



PITOT* tube 

It measures fluid flow velocity and gives out the air speed of the aircraft.

Good Day!


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## muhammadali233

R!CK said:


> PITOT* tube
> 
> It measures fluid flow velocity and gives out the air speed of the aircraft.
> 
> Good Day!


isnt it pronounced like "peto"? I asked a pilot once and he didn't mention air speed.
anyways thanks.

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## R!CK

muhammadali233 said:


> isnt it pronounced like "peto"? I asked a pilot once and he didn't mention air speed.
> anyways thanks.



yea its pronounced like Peettot.

Good Day


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## fatman17

Super Mushshak at Africa Aerospace and Defence (AAD) - 2016 Exhibition in South Africa

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 10:03 am

Super Mushshak built by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra displayed at Africa Aerospace and Defence (AAD) - 2016 exhibition hosted at Air Force Base Waterkloof situated on the outskirts of Pretoria in South Africa.

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## fatman17

Mushshak at night

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## muhammadali233

Arron Bert said:


> Any pictures of Pakistan's Mushak being armed?


not pakistani but still armed quite "heavily"

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## Manticore




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## Dazzler

muhammadali233 said:


> mfds (glass cockpit), supposedly garmin kit used.
> 
> 
> peto if i i am spelling it right,used for situational awareness,gives pilot info about the outer temp,heading etc to pilot on his mfds.



its antenna for communication gear.


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## SQ8



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## Glass

how much does an armed mushak cost?

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## fatman17

lllxi1998 said:


> how much does an armed mushak cost?



No idea as Pakistan dosnt operate any.


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## fatman17

Middle East & North Africa

The governments of Pakistan and Turkey have signed an agreement to supply 52 Super Mushshak basic trainers for the Turkish military. Signatories on the deal were Air Marshal Arshad Malik, Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), and Mustafa Seker, Deputy Undersecretary Turkish Ministry of Defense Industry. Delivery is expected by 2019 and comes with a $50 million price tag.


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## HRK

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/801438277832155136


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## fatman17

Africa

The first batch of four Super Mushshak trainers have been delivered to Nigeria . Delivery comes six weeks after the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) signed a deal with the Nigerian Air Force to supply 10 new Super Mushshaks, eight of which will be loaned on an interim basis until the new trainers are exported. The next four will arrive by the second quarter of 2017, while the new models will be delivered later that summer.

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## fatman17

Nigeria accepts Super Mushshaks

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## fatman17

Nigerian Air Force’s First Mushshak Inducted Into Service

A CEREMONY was held at Nigerian Air Force (NAF) Base Kaduna today, …

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## HRK

Credit: TheOccupiedKashmir

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## Jammer

R!CK said:


> PITOT* tube
> 
> It measures fluid flow velocity and gives out the air speed of the aircraft.
> 
> Good Day!


Nope, behind the cockpit is the UAT (Universal Access Transceiver) antenna and a GPS antenna, the PITOT is under the left wing.


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## nomi007

when will iraq & turkey will get their shipments


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## X_Killer

A Pakistan Army aircraft on Thursday crash-landed on the outskirts of Peshawar, according to local media reports.
The Mushshak aircraft crash-landed crash-landed in Painda Khan village of Mattani


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Pakistan looks at COIN role for Super Mushshak aircraft

Alan Warnes, Kamra - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

19 May 2017

The state-owned Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), in Kamra, northern Pakistan, is looking at counter-insurgency (COIN) roles for its Super Mushshak training aircraft.

The move comes after the company successfully integrated a new glass cockpit into the aircraft and sold units of the basic trainer to Nigeria (10 units), Qatar (8), and Turkey (52) over the past year.

PAC is fitting weapons onto its Super Mushshaks. This aircraft is armed with two Chinese FT-10s PGBs in late April. (Alan Warnes)

The company is now adding intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities by fitting the aircraft with electro-optic/infrared (EO/IR) sensor turrets, with one Super Mushshak already equipped with an L3 Wescam MX-10.

PAC chairman Air Marshal Arshad Malik told Jane's, "We have had several customers enquiring about integrating an ISR system; so we are looking at options.

"While sitting in the cockpit's right seat, the turret operator would control the camera and watch the video feed on the glass screen. At the same time the imagery could be downlinked to the battle commander on the ground. It's a very simple system," the air marshal added.

The second initiative is to arm the Super Mushshak. After initial aerodynamic and structural analysis, one Chinese-built 25 kg FT-10 precision-guided bomb (PGB) was mounted under each wing of one of the aircraft on 29 April.

Complete integration of the weapons is expected to take another three to four months, which will also cover the design and manufacture of the pylons, quality checks, flight test, and eventually a test drop.

The PAC chairman pointed out that to ease the pilot's workload, "PAC is in the process of incorporating servos for the autopilot, too". The newly designed system would assist the pilot in controlling the aircraft should there be any aerodynamic instability after dropping one or both bombs.

An expert at the PAC Kamra's design, technology, and integration department admitted that it would take some time to verify and physically validate the findings of aerodynamic analysis.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Pakistan looks at COIN role for Super Mushshak aircraft
> 
> Alan Warnes, Kamra - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 19 May 2017
> 
> The state-owned Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), in Kamra, northern Pakistan, is looking at counter-insurgency (COIN) roles for its Super Mushshak training aircraft.
> 
> The move comes after the company successfully integrated a new glass cockpit into the aircraft and sold units of the basic trainer to Nigeria (10 units), Qatar (8), and Turkey (52) over the past year.
> 
> PAC is fitting weapons onto its Super Mushshaks. This aircraft is armed with two Chinese FT-10s PGBs in late April. (Alan Warnes)
> 
> The company is now adding intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities by fitting the aircraft with electro-optic/infrared (EO/IR) sensor turrets, with one Super Mushshak already equipped with an L3 Wescam MX-10.
> 
> PAC chairman Air Marshal Arshad Malik told Jane's, "We have had several customers enquiring about integrating an ISR system; so we are looking at options.
> 
> "While sitting in the cockpit's right seat, the turret operator would control the camera and watch the video feed on the glass screen. At the same time the imagery could be downlinked to the battle commander on the ground. It's a very simple system," the air marshal added.
> 
> The second initiative is to arm the Super Mushshak. After initial aerodynamic and structural analysis, one Chinese-built 25 kg FT-10 precision-guided bomb (PGB) was mounted under each wing of one of the aircraft on 29 April.
> 
> Complete integration of the weapons is expected to take another three to four months, which will also cover the design and manufacture of the pylons, quality checks, flight test, and eventually a test drop.
> 
> The PAC chairman pointed out that to ease the pilot's workload, "PAC is in the process of incorporating servos for the autopilot, too". The newly designed system would assist the pilot in controlling the aircraft should there be any aerodynamic instability after dropping one or both bombs.
> 
> An expert at the PAC Kamra's design, technology, and integration department admitted that it would take some time to verify and physically validate the findings of aerodynamic analysis.
> 
> View attachment 397992


@Quwa since SM can carry a payload of over 300kg. I wonder if they will arm it to carry more PGMs than just 2... 25KG PGBs?


----------



## khanasifm

FT-10

http://www.armyrecognition.com/airs...ombat_missions_with_bombs_rockets_211114.html


----------



## The Accountant

X_Killer said:


> A Pakistan Army aircraft on Thursday crash-landed on the outskirts of Peshawar, according to local media reports.
> The Mushshak aircraft crash-landed crash-landed in Painda Khan village of Mattani


Amazing safety ... it landed on a ground without any damage to cockpit ...

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## Windjammer

X_Killer said:


> Dude,Stick with the topic that is mushshak.
> Here we have another thread to explore Indian crashes. Unlike I too know that jf-17 was crashed but didn't post it here!
> Please don't sit on fire.
> Cheers...



we produce this aircraft and have exported it to some dozen countries...there must be a reason for it's market.


----------



## fatman17

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @Quwa since SM can carry a payload of over 300kg. I wonder if they will arm it to carry more PGMs than just 2... 25KG PGBs?


For SM to be effective and competitive, it has to have the following options. 
1. 4 pylons for 4 PGMs. 
2. Rocket pods. 
3. 20mm gun. 
In 1, 3 or 2, 3 option.


----------



## X_Killer

Windjammer said:


> we produce this aircraft and have exported it to some dozen countries...there must be a reason for it's market.


1st: don't try to derail the topic
2. If you want to discuss IAF crashes than jump to that Thread than I'll show your place.
3. MS is DEVELOPED from Saab Safari, isn't it?
4. You need to learn countings because there is more to go to reach a dozen. In total only 213 aircrafts were produced by 2016.


----------



## nomi007

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 397962
> View attachment 397963


million dollar pictures
thanks for sharing


----------



## Windjammer

X_Killer said:


> 1st: don't try to derail the topic
> 2. If you want to discuss IAF crashes than jump to that Thread than I'll show your place.
> 3. MS is DEVELOPED from Saab Safari, isn't it?
> 4. You need to learn countings because there is more to go to reach a dozen. In total only 213 aircrafts were produced by 2016.


1. Learn to digest rather than digress through heartburn.
2. With flying coffin syndrome, you have no leg to stand on....
3. Unlike Indians, we seldom term everything as Indigenous. LoL
4. Practice what you preach....Pause...drink some cold water...pause...read my post ... again... slowly......
If you are still incompetent to comprehend, let me spell it out for you....
*We have exported the Mushaq to some dozen countries.*

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## khanasifm

Ignore by replying you are giving importance to a flamer  admin block please


----------



## StuartA

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @Quwa since SM can carry a payload of over 300kg. I wonder if they will arm it to carry more PGMs than just 2... 25KG PGBs?



The bomb in the picture seems to be FT-9 rather than FT-10. FT-9 is 50 kg apiece.


----------



## khanasifm

StuartA said:


> The bomb in the picture seems to be FT-9 rather than FT-10. FT-9 is 50 kg apiece.



Now I am not sure which one it is but based on the link below it's missing mid body and rear body fins ?? 

http://www.armyrecognition.com/airs...ombat_missions_with_bombs_rockets_211114.html


----------



## Devil Soul

Qatar receives first batch of made-in-#Pakistan Super Mushak aircraft. Photos by @MOD_Qatar

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## X_Killer

X_Killer said:


> LoL, PLAAF is still flying 728 F-7 ( licence version of Mig-21), along with F-7's in PAF. Another flying coffins with different names.
> Stop it , when you have a pant with a hole
> 
> What type of Indigenisation you are claiming, painting chinese jet (which is rejected by PLAAF and Inducted by PAF.)


#admin why you guys are hiding my posts?


----------



## fatman17

X_Killer said:


> #admin why you guys are hiding my posts?


Are you being a naughty boy


----------



## X_Killer

fatman17 said:


> Are you being a naughty boy


What thing you found naughty in that post?
Please reinstate your vision.


----------



## fatman17

X_Killer said:


> What thing you found naughty in that post?
> Please reinstate your vision.


How does one reinstate one's vision


----------



## X_Killer

fatman17 said:


> How does one reinstate one's vision


It seems, you are very reluctant to resolve issues raised by foreign members (specially Indian)
Anyways, keep it up if you guys like it.

Moreover be happy with improved Saab safari aka mushshak.


----------



## salarsikander

X_Killer said:


> It seems, you are very reluctant to resolve issues raised by foreign members (specially Indian)
> Anyways, keep it up if you guys like it.
> 
> Moreover be happy with improved Saab safari aka mushshak.


Post reported for continuous trolling
@waz @The Eagle @Emmie


----------



## fatman17

X_Killer said:


> It seems, you are very reluctant to resolve issues raised by foreign members (specially Indian)
> Anyways, keep it up if you guys like it.
> 
> Moreover be happy with improved Saab safari aka mushshak.


Thanks


----------



## Bossman

X_Killer said:


> It seems, you are very reluctant to resolve issues raised by foreign members (specially Indian)
> Anyways, keep it up if you guys like it.
> 
> Moreover be happy with improved Saab safari aka mushshak.


Coming from citizen of a country which has to import its Primary Trainer, its Basic Trainer and its Advanced trainer, this is a compliment.

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## X_Killer

Bossman said:


> Coming from citizen of a country which has to import its Primary Trainer, its Basic Trainer and its Advanced trainer, this is a compliment.


Nice troll man 
But we didn't change the name of any project just for screwdriver tech and paint job.

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## khanasifm

Keep it up [emoji106]


----------



## Bossman

X_Killer said:


> Nice troll man
> But we didn't change the name of any project just for screwdriver tech and paint job.



Unfortunately, the Indian cannot even do a paint job or turn a screw. Slovenian Primary Trainer, of all the places:100% imported from all the places Slovenia. Some high up in IAF must have gotten a real good £low 7ob. Incidentally called Virus like the folks who operate it. A Swiss basic trainer: 100% imported. A British Advanced Trainer with some assembly in India. We imported a design and made it better and exported to half a dozen countries. Saab contribution to what we make is "0". We are a partners in K8 and make the forward fuselage and the tail section. More than 500 K8s are flying all over the world. We have a JV for JF17 and already receiving orders from multiple countries. So take your head out of your @$$ and start smelling some roses.

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## Army research

Bossman said:


> Unfortunately, the Indian cannot even do a paint job or turn a screw. Slovenian Primary Trainer, of all the places:100% imported.Incidentally called Virus like the folks who operate it. A Swiss basic trainer: 100% imported. A British Advanced Trainer with some assembly in India. We imported a design and made it better and exported to half a dozen countries. Saab contribution to what we make is "0". We are a partners in K8 and make the forward fuselage and the tail section. More than 500 K8s are flying all over the world. We have a JV for JF17 and already receiving orders from multiple countries. So take your head out of your @$$ and start smelling some roses.


Please Pakistanis and Indian don't ruin this thread !!!!( no offence intended )


----------



## Bossman

Army research said:


> Please Pakistanis and Indian don't ruin this thread !!!!( no offence intended )


Offense taken as my only contribution to this site is to take down Indians who act stupid. Also maybe Mastan when he is acting arrogant


----------



## Army research

Bossman said:


> Offense taken as my only contribution to this site is to take down Indians who act stupid. Also maybe Mastan when he is acting arrogant


Just ignore em man, and tbh sometimes master deserves to be arrogant he knows too much

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## -------

Any set dates on when Turkey will be receiving it's first batch of trainers ?


----------



## khanasifm

Admin please take action people should not be allowed on this forum and thread who are here to post off topic bull;()$
- thanks [emoji120]

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## Army research

X_Killer said:


> May I know How to give negative Rating because it annoys me when someone who is out of his mind give -ve rating on the Truthful post.


This is a Pakistani thread and I'm just respectfully asking man why are you saying paint job etc stuff here it would obviously piss of Pakistani as Indians would pissed when Pakistanis make fun of tejas, just stop it please


----------



## MastanKhan

X_Killer said:


> May I know How to give negative Rating because it annoys me when someone who is out of his mind give -ve rating on the Truthful post.



Sir,

Seems like there is some confusion about your presence here---. This board gives a lots of respect and freedom of expression to indian members---.

For comparison sake---you should visit your defence board and see how pakistani members are treated.

And Bssman ---- poor baby --- always crying.

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## HAIDER

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Seems like there is some confusion about your presence here---. This board gives a lots of respect and freedom of expression to indian members---.
> 
> For comparison sake---you should visit your defence board and see how pakistani members are treated.
> 
> And Bssman ---- poor baby --- always crying.


Agreed, one of reason i stop visiting Indian forums.

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## Incog_nito

I would suggest that Pakistan should keep good relationship with Qatar in terms of supplying military and non-military exports.



muhammadali233 said:


> not pakistani but still armed quite "heavily"
> View attachment 344647


PAC should make it like this.


----------



## Readerdefence

HAIDER said:


> Agreed, one of reason i stop visiting Indian forums.


Hi actually our mods are little bit less aggressive if you go to SDF site non of the Indian members 
Will appear there with their dk measuring or biased allegations not even for jf17 
So I humbly request the mods to talk stern action then & there in this regards and start banning the members with irrelevant posts and out of topics 
I hope nobody will get offended by my post
Thx

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## CriticalThought

Readerdefence said:


> Hi actually our mods are little bit less aggressive if you go to SDF site non of the Indian members
> Will appear there with their dk measuring or biased allegations not even for jf17
> So I humbly request the mods to talk stern action then & there in this regards and start banning the members with irrelevant posts and out of topics
> I hope nobody will get offended by my post
> Thx



Agreed and seconded.

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## HAIDER

Readerdefence said:


> Hi actually our mods are little bit less aggressive if you go to SDF site non of the Indian members
> Will appear there with their dk measuring or biased allegations not even for jf17
> So I humbly request the mods to talk stern action then & there in this regards and start banning the members with irrelevant posts and out of topics
> I hope nobody will get offended by my post
> Thx


I am not opposing Indian members presence in this forum, we have lots of good , knowledgeable and respectable Indian members in this forum. Zero percent tolerance is not right approach. We need to show, we are better , no hate or biased against anyone.


----------



## Readerdefence

HAIDER said:


> I am not opposing Indian members presence in this forum, we have lots of good , knowledgeable and respectable Indian members in this forum. Zero percent tolerance is not right approach. We need to show, we are better , no hate or biased against anyone.


Me neither opposing any but members like you who can shed some info members like us or other new memebers on this forum can learn something alas inappropriate and irrelevant posts looks like memebers want to create more topics instead of putting something relevant and up to date on those forums 
Zero tolerance shouldn't be but some tolerance  so not to derail the thread and save the bandwidth of the forum beside getting knowledge about the forum
So being a elite. Memeber I hope mods listen to you much concerned them members like us
Thx


----------



## STRANGER BIRD

*Tamam Pakistanio ko ye zabardast Khushkhabri Mubarak Ho .*
​*Azerbaijan Air Force signs a contract for 10x units of Super Mushak primary flight training aircrafts from the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex*
​*




*
​

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## MastanKhan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi actually our mods are little bit less aggressive if you go to SDF site non of the Indian members
> Will appear there with their dk measuring or biased allegations not even for jf17
> So I humbly request the mods to talk stern action then & there in this regards and start banning the members with irrelevant posts and out of topics
> I hope nobody will get offended by my post
> Thx



Hi,

PDF is more of a social media / defence related site-----SD forum is a no B S defence related site---. Deino and Jeff Head will set you straight in a minute.

We can do better over here---just by forcing new members and to to post their flag---their age their profession.

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## ghazi52

*Azerbaijan to buy 10 Super Mushshak aircraft from Pakistan
*





*ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra brought another feather in its cap, when it signed an agreement with Azerbaijan for sale of ten Super Mushshak aircraft to Azerbaijan Air Force.*

The contract was signed in Azerbaijan, where Air Marshal Arshad Malik, Chairman PAC Kamra represented Pakistan; whereas, Azerbaijan was represented by Lieutenant General Ramiz Tahirov, Air Force Commander Azerbaijan at the occasion.

This contract would also include operational training and technical support and assistance to Azerbaijan Air Force. This landmark agreement will further strengthen the bilateral ties between the two brotherly Countries.






Indigenously produced Super Mushshak aircraft is equipped with most modern equipment and capabilities which makes it one of the best military trainer aircraft.

Approximately 300 Super Mushshak aircraft are being used by the Pakistan Air Force and Pakistan Army for military training of pilots and other defense related activities.

Pakistan has recently signed agreements to export Super Mushshak aircraft to Turkey, Nigeria and Qatar.

This contract would not only open new avenues for export of aviation equipment to foreign countries but also help in generating revenue for the country. The aircraft is already in service with Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iran and South Africa.

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## khanasifm

Every mashaq customer becomes potential k8 and jf-17 customers  Nigeria, azji, Qatar, ....

Azji follow Turks quite a bit as basically same origin, culture etc so was very expected after Turkish buy now let's see if rumours of jf will turn true

Am arshad is very fortunate to lead PAC at right time or may be he has played a role ??? Mashaq production will remain busy to next 4-5 years assuming max at 20

52 plus 10 plus 10 plus 10 plus ???


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## fatman17

Military Capabilities

Nigerian Air Force builds up training capabilities






Erwan de Cherisey - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

25 July 2017

The Nigerian Air Force (NAF) is strengthening its training capabilities to meet the demands of a major expansion that has involved reactivating and procuring fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters in recent years. This has resulted in a need for additional aircrews and prompted the NAF to send officers abroad for flight training while it reassessed its training capabilities.

One of the NAF's new Super Mushshaks is delivered on 14 July. (Nigerian Air Force)

The NAF announced on 11 July that its Training Command had been split into an Air Training Command (ATC), headquartered at Kaduna Air Base, and a Ground Training Command (GTC) based at Enugu Air Base. “The ATC will be responsible for the implementation of policies on flying and air operations, while the GTC will be responsible for the implementation of local ground training,” the NAF statement said.

The Kaduna-based 401 Flying Training School (FTS) now has PAC Super Mushshak basic training aircraft, four of which arrived in December 2016. After basic training, pilots transition to L-39 jets for advanced training or to other types such as the Dornier 228 for multi-engine conversion.

When the NAF announced on 14 July that another five Super Mushshaks had arrived, it said the four existing ones had been loaned by Pakistan to allow pilot training to move ahead while the 10 aircraft ordered by Nigeria were being manufactured. It is unclear if the loaned aircraft will be returned after the remaining five are delivered.

The NAF said in April 2016 the new Super Mushshaks would replace an existing fleet of Diamond DA-40s that were too few in number and unsuitable for training pilots due to their inability to perform aerobatics. However, three DA-40s with NAF registrations were seen during the NAF Day celebrations on 22 April.


----------



## SSGcommandoPAK

Is Senegal also buying Super Mushak Aircraft ?


----------



## ghazi52

Made in Pakistan akistani Aircraft Super Mashak and J-17 Thunder Fighter Jets increasingly in demand

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## khanasifm

Naf battle order about 20 f7/mig21 can be seen on two airfields http://www.scramble.nl/orbats/nigeria/airforce


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## khanasifm

I see PAC has still the news of Iraqi buying Mashaq where it is stated that order was cancelled ? Is there official statement from iaf or PAC ?


----------



## khanasifm

How is Bangladesh [emoji1042] customer of PAC , they had bought c4 system from pak but its built by aero ??? http://www.pac.org.pk/customers

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## fatman17

Intl orders for Super Mushshak have totaled 144 since 2016 making it one of the most successful A/C projects of Asia-https://t.co/uQ4S7LWCm7 https://t.co/KQaNMsg2of

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## Dazzler

To Qatar, with love..

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## DESERT FIGHTER

khanasifm said:


> I see PAC has still the news of Iraqi buying Mashaq where it is stated that order was cancelled ? Is there official statement from iaf or PAC ?


None...

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## khanasifm

Dazzler said:


> To Qatar, with love..
> 
> View attachment 423914
> 
> 
> View attachment 423915



What countries are next to South Africa left and right ? I think 2 star is Syria but he other ??


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## nomi007

need to develop indigenous engine for mushshak


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## Windjammer

PA Mushshak in new grey coat and tint canopy.

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## Windjammer



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## Jinn Baba

Nigerian news on delivery of super mushak trainers:

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## denel

khanasifm said:


> What countries are next to South Africa left and right ? I think 2 star is Syria but he other ??


Flag of oman.
one thing i have to raise... it is a private flying school that operates this aircraft not a govt department or defence wing. have noted a few times; it gives a false impression. Here we have thousands of private pilots with their own aircrafts and microlight being another segment.

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## HRK



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## fatman17

PAC's Aircraft Manufacturing Factory has painted up one of its demonstrator Super Mushshaks in a new colour scheme. https://t.co/9nR7SQXgZm

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## fatman17

Super Mushshak, Made in Pakistan for Qatar Air Force (QAF). 
#Pakistan has recently signed agreements to export Super Mushshak aircraft to #Turkey, #Nigeria and #Qatar. https://t.co/nwNjgJAvOl

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Lovely bird

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## fatman17

Azerbaijan to order Super Mushshak primary trainer aircraft from Pakistan 
https://t.co/RhTL9vQy4l

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## fatman17

Azerbaijan has inked contracts with Pakistan, finalizing a deal to purchase 10 Super Mushshak trainers from Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). The signing took place during a trilateral meeting of foreign ministers from Pakistan, Turkey and Azerbaijan, and hosted in the Azeri capital Baku. During the meeting, Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Khawaja Muhammad Asif called for greater joint defense production between the three countries, something his counterparts were amenable to. Azerbaijan and Pakistan, being the smaller defence industry players of the three countries, will likely look to limit their hard currency outflows and increase support for their respective defence suppliers by linking to the supply channels supporting the Turkish Armed Forces. This could potentially be had by Islamabad and Baku partnering with Ankara in the latter’s development programs. Pakistan is also looking to sell its JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighter to Azerbaijan, and manufacturer PAC is configuring Turkish firm Aselsan’s ASELPOD targeting pod to the JF-17. This, along with potentially other Turkish subsystems and air-to-surface weapons, could make their way to Azerbaijan should Baku select the JF-17.

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## Introvert

*Nigerian Air Force receives five Super Mushsak aircraft from Pakistan*

The Nigerian Air Force, NAF, on Sunday took delivery of five Super Mushsak aircraft from Pakistan meant to enhance its training and operational efficiency.

The Chief of Logistics, NAF headquarters, AVM Garba Bello said while taking delivery of the aircraft in Kaduna that the total Super Mushsak aircraft received from Pakistan now stood at 10.

“The aircraft acquired is for the training of air force personnel and to improve the service’ air power,” he said.

Mr. Bello, who represented the Chief of Air Staff, Sadiq Abubakar, at the event, said:“This will enhance training of our student pilots who will now complete their training within stipulated the time.

“This will get them to go to another form of training in time and finally get them to launch into battle field in the North-East and other parts of the country.”

According to him, the aircraft is modern and has spare parts in the event of repairs and maintenance.

“In the NAF, we have a very strict maintenance culture, we have instructor pilots and engineers on it.”

Also speaking, the team leader of Pakistan Air force, Zeeshan Ahmed, said 10 super Mushsak planes have been supplied to Nigeria from Pakistan.

He said that the gesture would strengthen existing relationship between the two countries and encourage the two armed forces to upscale their synergy.

https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news...ves-five-super-mushsak-aircraft-pakistan.html


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## fatman17

#Nigerianairforce took deliver of final batch of 5 Super Mushak basic trainer, earlier NAF had ordered a total of 10 Super Mushak's from Pakistan Air Force. https://t.co/mkpUqFsJrb

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## sami_1

*




*
*why not convert or new built UAV from Super Mushshak for More Applications:*

*1 - Reconnaissance*
*2 - Demining*
*3 - Commercial aerial surveillance*
*4 - Cargo transport*

*For extend production line *
*



*

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## The Accountant

sami_1 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *why not convert or new built UAV from Super Mushshak for More Applications:*
> 
> *1 - Reconnaissance*
> *2 - Demining*
> *3 - Commercial aerial surveillance*
> *4 - Cargo transport*
> 
> *For extend production line *
> *
> 
> 
> *


Coz UAV is altogather another science and requirements are different ...

What you are saying is something like why can't we use honda civic for troop transfer in battle field ...

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## fatman17

Five more Super Mushshak trainer aircraft have been delivered to the Nigerian Air Force (NAF), bringing to ten the total number now operated by theservice. The Pakistani-made trainers touched down in an Il-76 airlifter on January 14 at Kaduna air base with Chief of Logistics at NAF Headquarters, Air Vice Marshal Bello Garba, meeting the aircraft alongside a team of NAF and Pakistan Air Force (PAF) personnel, who were on hand to offload the aircraft and spare parts. The aircraft will now be assembled by PAF and NAF technicians prior to testing and formal induction in service at the NAF’s 401 Flying Training School.

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## denel

Super M.


fatman17 said:


> Five more Super Mushshak trainer aircraft have been delivered to the Nigerian Air Force (NAF), bringing to ten the total number now operated by theservice. The Pakistani-made trainers touched down in an Il-76 airlifter on January 14 at Kaduna air base with Chief of Logistics at NAF Headquarters, Air Vice Marshal Bello Garba, meeting the aircraft alongside a team of NAF and Pakistan Air Force (PAF) personnel, who were on hand to offload the aircraft and spare parts. The aircraft will now be assembled by PAF and NAF technicians prior to testing and formal induction in service at the NAF’s 401 Flying Training School.


These planes were on NTA (Nigerian TV) news today in a fly past.

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## fatman17

denel said:


> Super M.
> 
> These planes were on NTA (Nigerian TV) news today in a fly past.


One of our rare success stories for military exports


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## denel

fatman17 said:


> One of our rare success stories for military exports


Yes, kudos to who ever came up with the thought of coming up with an improved version of basic Safari.

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## Aamir Hussain

May be this is a niche market that we should develop aircraft for. Low cost prop driven trainers and COIN a/c.

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## fatman17

Aamir Hussain said:


> May be this is a niche market that we should develop aircraft for. Low cost prop driven trainers and COIN a/c.


Mushshak can be armed as a light COIN. unguided rockets or 250lb bombs and a gunpod. Some work is being done to fit 1 hard point under each wing.

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## Armchair

Aamir Hussain said:


> May be this is a niche market that we should develop aircraft for. Low cost prop driven trainers and COIN a/c.



That could be a very competitive offering in a market that has only grown. Would be great if Kamra developed something along those lines.

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## AsifIjaz

In late 2017 / early 2018 there were pictures of super mushaks with 2 hard points. Does anyone know the latest on that front e.g. like whats the max TOW, do we have a relevant radar replacement that can be used for some sort of COIN operation and is the glass compatible with night vision gogles etc etc.
I don't think we can make a mushak a A29 but anything with 2 hard points and one cannon /gun carrying 650 to 700 kg weight would be awesome for the next step in the evolution of the aircraft. Along with the UCAV these can also be used at the durand line after the fencing and forts. we have sold a decent numbers of these aircraft and we can milk the air frame further by offering upgrades (structural + avionics) and thus making this relevant for the next decade as well.


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## denel

AsifIjaz said:


> In late 2017 / early 2018 there were pictures of super mushaks with 2 hard points. Does anyone know the latest on that front e.g. like whats the max TOW, do we have a relevant radar replacement that can be used for some sort of COIN operation and is the glass compatible with night vision gogles etc etc.
> I don't think we can make a mushak a A29 but anything with 2 hard points and one cannon /gun carrying 650 to 700 kg weight would be awesome for the next step in the evolution of the aircraft. Along with the UCAV these can also be used at the durand line after the fencing and forts. we have sold a decent numbers of these aircraft and we can milk the air frame further by offering upgrades (structural + avionics) and thus making this relevant for the next decade as well.


Focus needs to now also go in parallel to K8 which has become an orphan. For M's - airframe work has reached its peak; wings can be improved further including hardened landing gear especially if used for game protection/surveillance - there is a huge area of need across this region - large loitering and ability to land and take off in the veldt.

Like the Saab Safari was adopted, a need exists now to move to a turboprop platform.


----------



## khanasifm

sami_1 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *why not convert or new built UAV from Super Mushshak for More Applications:*
> 
> *1 - Reconnaissance*
> *2 - Demining*
> *3 - Commercial aerial surveillance*
> *4 - Cargo transport*
> 
> *For extend production line *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *



Looks like this is the South African civilian company version which bought a few mashaqs


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## khanasifm

Was the Iraqi order delayed or cancelled ??


----------



## GriffinsRule

Mushshak has always been able to carry weapons on hard points. Its nothing new. The carrying capacity etc are available on the wikipedia page. 
*
Armament*


*Hardpoints:* 6× under-wing, maximum external load 300 kg (660 lb) total
*Possible loads:*
2× 7.62 mm machine gun pods
2× 75 mm unguided rocket pod (7 rounds)
4× 68 mm unguided rocket pod (7 rounds)
6× wire-guided anti-tank missiles (ATGMs)


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## AsifIjaz

GriffinsRule said:


> Mushshak has always been able to carry weapons on hard points. Its nothing new. The carrying capacity etc are available on the wikipedia page.
> *
> Armament*
> 
> 
> *Hardpoints:* 6× under-wing, maximum external load 300 kg (660 lb) total
> *Possible loads:*
> 2× 7.62 mm machine gun pods
> 2× 75 mm unguided rocket pod (7 rounds)
> 4× 68 mm unguided rocket pod (7 rounds)
> 6× wire-guided anti-tank missiles (ATGMs)


Thanks for tge info. I thought it was a recent development.
I hope we strengthen the airframe and seek from the manufacturer whether we can get a bit more power from tweeking the engine. 
The above would let us carry more weight and also add a radar to give it the possibility of carrying small guided misssiles


----------



## denel

khanasifm said:


> Looks like this is the South African civilian company version which bought a few mashaqs


That was a small private training company in midrand. but dont know if they are still operating


----------



## Bratva

Qatar Super Mushak aircraft taking part in Qatar National day flyby. Starts from 17:00

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## AsifIjaz

lou geee. i didnt know there would be mushaks performing . @Bratva was it the mushaks that made the heart at the end???


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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080370338591133696

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## fatman17

Most Pak Air Force Academy Super Mushshaks have now been upgraded with new glass cockpit. The PAF CAS also recently told me the T-37s will be modified with a glass cockpit too. I’m sure this will be the first and only time the veteran jet trainer will go through such s process.
Alan Warnes


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## fatman17

Land Platforms

K-8 jet trainer seen with Angolan Air Force markings

Jeremy Binnie, London - Jane's Defence Weekly

04 March 2019

A photograph circulating on the Chinese blogging site Weibo has indicated that Angola is in the process of acquiring Hongdu K-8 jet trainer aircraft.

The photograph showed Luo Ronghuai, president of the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), inspecting a Hongdu facility. In the background a K-8 with the National Air Force of Angola (FANA) roundel on its tail could be seen. The aircraft’s cockpit had been covered for protection and the leading edge of its tail had been removed.

Angola has not traditionally acquired defence equipment from China but it was revealed in January 2017 that its army was operating WMA301 tank destroyers and command post variants of the WZ551 armoured personnel carrier made by the Chinese company Norinco.

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## aziqbal

Those army Mushsak at Mutlan with army aviation don't even have air conditioning 

They are really old, Air Force has new ones 

but army ones could cause a serious crash they are in a bad state


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## Introvert

TOPGUN said:


> A really outstanding aircraft , I would love to see it in a armed version though



Your wish becomes true.

https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pakistan/pakistan-develops-combat-version-of-super-mushak-aircraft/

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## thunderkaka

When are we going to deliver Super Mushak trainer jets to Turkey. They placed an order for 52 jets according to Wiki.


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## Legio XI The Ironclads

thunderkaka said:


> When are we going to deliver Super Mushak trainer jets to Turkey. They placed an order for 52 jets according to Wiki.



Just being pedantic, Mushak is not a jet.

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## AMG_12

aziqbal said:


> Those army Mushsak at Mutlan with army aviation don't even have air conditioning
> 
> They are really old, Air Force has new ones
> 
> but army ones could cause a serious crash they are in a bad state


Also the ones at Rahwali. Mushak fleet of PAA requires an upgrade.


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## fatman17

Armed Mushshak

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## Tank131

Frankly it should have 4 missiles at least. Even Burraq UAV carries 2 Barq missiles. Either 2 more hard points or dual ejector racks


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## Bossman

Tank131 said:


> Frankly it should have 4 missiles at least. Even Burraq UAV carries 2 Barq missiles. Either 2 more hard points or dual ejector racks



So smart!

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## Secret Service

aziqbal said:


> Those army Mushsak at Mutlan with army aviation don't even have air conditioning
> 
> They are *really old*, Air Force has new ones
> 
> but *army ones could cause a serious crash they are in a bad state*



They should get new ones from PAF. I dont see any difficulties in it.


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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/MFI-395-Super-Mushshak/1914

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## Aryeih Leib

Sir are these displays built in Pakistan or just assembled there


fatman17 said:


> Armed Mushshak
> View attachment 547812
> View attachment 547813
> View attachment 547814


----------



## fatman17

Aryeih Leib said:


> Sir are these displays built in Pakistan or just assembled there


Built in Pakistan. They are not displays. Nearly 100+ aircraft exported to many countries.

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## Aryeih Leib

fatman17 said:


> Built in Pakistan. They are not displays. Nearly 100+ aircraft exported to many countries.


These ?


----------



## nomi007

Aryeih Leib said:


> These ?
> View attachment 567410


also these

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## Aryeih Leib

Ok


nomi007 said:


> also these


----------



## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217120776190615552

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217126326387212293
@Quwa @Dazzler

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## Dazzler

Haris Ali2140 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217120776190615552
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217126326387212293
> @Quwa @Dazzler



New avionics for Turkish order

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## AsifIjaz

Whats the second big deal tht he is talking about... Any ideas? 
I cant recall any upcoming big order by an airforce.


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## Marker

According to Alan Warnes’ article published in Asian Military Review dated 9-1-2019, the Turkish AF has selected the Garmin 950 avionics suite for its 52 Super Mushshak aircraft.

Now, GenesysAero avionics system is being integrated into a Super Mushshak.

That means PAC is offering Super Mushshak with three different glass cockpit options – Dynon, Garmin and GenesysAero.

May be light attack version of Super Mushshak are being configured with GenesysAero avionics system!!!!

According to APP, MoU was signed with STI (System Technology Inc.???) for the procurement of 02 Super Mushshak flight simulators during IDEA 2016. Is there any update on it?


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## khanasifm

Singapore technologies ?? they are also Co designer with pac for jf avionics sub systems per paf history book


https://www.stengg.com/en/singapore-technologies-engineering/


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## ghazi52



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## Marker

Dazzler said:


> New avionics for Turkish order





Haris Ali2140 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217120776190615552
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217126326387212293
> @Quwa @Dazzler



*Super Mushshak Original Cockpit Console




*

*Germin G950 Glass Cockpit for Super Mushshak






Dyno Avionics Glass Cockpit for Super Mushshak






Genesys Aerosystems Glass Cockpit for Super Mushshak




*

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## fatman17

The Super Mushshak with the #IDU680 avionics suite. #efis #avionics https://t.co/9hkfkjOHRD

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## nomi007

I think it is right time to develop the super mushshak NG variant same like TAI Hürkuş to replace old T-37

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## araz

nomi007 said:


> I think it is right time to develop the super mushshak NG variant same like TAI Hürkuş to replace old T-37


Not going to happen as we are short of money and resources(Material and man power). PAC may have looked at it if there was a niche for export available but with China creating competing birds they will not allow further development of a bird which could hinder the progress of their own birds.
A

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## Marker

araz said:


> Not going to happen as we are short of money and resources(Material and man power). PAC may have looked at it if there was a niche for export available but with China creating competing birds they will not allow further development of a bird which could hinder the progress of their own birds.
> A



Most of the current basic and advance trainer aircraft, in the international market, are having *tandem* cockpits.

T-37 is having side by side seating arrangement in the cockpit. Hence, it has the advantage that student pilot and instructor can see each other's actions, allowing the student pilot to learn from the instructor and the instructor to correct the student pilot.

It appears that PAF is reluctant to replace T-37 with K-8 for *basic *flying training. That is why PAF is not only expanding the inventory of T-37 but also upgrading it with glass cockpit.

However, the airframe life of T-37 though extended to 8000 hrs after SLEP modification, will last till mid 2030s at the most.

A viable option available to PAF is using T-37 DNA to design and manufacture a basic/advance trainer aircraft with a cockpit having *side by side seating arrangement*.

Refer my following post for further details:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turk...cost-to-pakistan.405814/page-10#post-12038087

PS: T-37 was the USAF most successful primary/basic trainer aircraft and it was supposed to be replaced by Next Generation Trainer (NGT) Fairchild T-46 (again an aircraft with a cockpit having side by side seating arrangement) - a project sponsored by USAF but abandoned due to political reasons.

PAF should take the initiative to carry out this project all alone. Investment of precious resources in this project after successful completion, will not only satisfy its local demand, by replacing the aging T-37 fleet but have greater probability of success in the International Market.

PAC can export this aircraft not only as a *next generation trainer aircraft with a cockpit having side by side seating arrangement *but also as a COIN aircraft. (example A-37!)


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## Incog_nito

Besides our own aircraft. Why not PAF look to acquire some other basic and intermediate prop trainers from Europe, like Platius Aircrafts.


----------



## Marker

The Pilatus PC-21 is a turboprop-powered advanced trainer with a stepped tandem cockpit.

PAF is already operating K-8 as AJT, therefore induction of such aircraft is not required.

Furthermore, financial resources are scarce in our country.

My suggestion is to design and produce a product locally and satisfy local demand first and then start exporting it internationally.

A basic/advance trainer aircraft with a cockpit having *side by side seating arrangement* will most probably be a success in the international market.

This will not only lessen the consumption of our scarce financial resources, but increase in export will help in improving the financial condition of Pakistan.



IM Ozair said:


> Besides our own aircraft. Why not PAF look to acquire some other basic and intermediate prop trainers from Europe, like Platius Aircrafts.


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## Incog_nito

Marker said:


> The Pilatus PC-21 is a turboprop-powered advanced trainer with a stepped tandem cockpit.
> 
> PAF is already operating K-8 as AJT, therefore induction of such aircraft is not required.
> 
> Furthermore, financial resources are scarce in our country.
> 
> My suggestion is to design and produce a product locally and satisfy local demand first and then start exporting it internationally.
> 
> A basic/advance trainer aircraft with a cockpit having *side by side seating arrangement* will most probably be a success in the international market.
> 
> This will not only lessen the consumption of our scarce financial resources, but increase in export will help in improving the financial condition of Pakistan.


K-8 is a Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer.

Platius is a general turbo prop trainer for Basic Training.


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## Marker

IM Ozair said:


> K-8 is a Basic & Intermediate Jet Trainer.
> 
> Platius is a general turbo prop trainer for Basic Training.



The *Pilatus PC-21* is a turboprop-powered *advanced trainer* with a stepped tandem cockpit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_PC-21

PAF is using T-37 as basic trainer and K-8 as AJT at PAF Academy Risalpur.

Both T-37 and K-8 are also used by FIS (Risalpur).

K-8s are also used by Aerobatics display team "Sherdils" (Risalpur).

Moreover, K-8s are also used by FCU as fighter conversion trainer.

PAF did planned to replace aging and depleting T-37s with K-8s.

But with the availability of 20 USAF and 34 TuAF T-37s, PAF is reluctant to use K-8 as basic trainers.

PAF flight instructors prefer using T-37 as basic trainer because it has side by side seating arrangement.

In addition to above, PAF is also upgrading T-37 by replacing original cockpit with glass cockpit.

All T-37s in PAF fleet have extended service life. Therefore, these aircraft will be available till 2030s.


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## khanasifm

Marker said:


> *Super Mushshak Original Cockpit Console
> 
> View attachment 604118
> *
> 
> *Germin G950 Glass Cockpit for Super Mushshak
> 
> View attachment 604119
> 
> 
> Dyno Avionics Glass Cockpit for Super Mushshak
> 
> View attachment 604121
> 
> 
> Genesys Aerosystems Glass Cockpit for Super Mushshak
> 
> View attachment 604125
> *




What new order is being referenced ?? Do we know ?

so far Turkish , Qatar and Nigeria orders are know

we know Iraqi order was canceled or delayed ???


So what new order ?


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> What new order is being referenced ?? Do we know ?
> 
> so far Turkish , Qatar and Nigeria orders are know
> 
> we know Iraqi order was canceled or delayed ???
> 
> 
> So what new order ?


Turkey is the big order under production along with Qatar, Nigeria delivered.


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## Marker

Mushshak and Super Mushshak export details.







UAEAF is currently holding 31 Pilatus PC-7 as primary trainers procured in 1980s. Super Mushshak is the best choice as replacement primary flying trainer. 

On the hand, Iraqi AF is holding Lasta 95 and T-6A as primary and basic trainers procured in late 2000s and beginning of 2010s. 

Therefore, UAEAF may procure Super Mushshak, if PAC adopt aggressive marketing strategy.

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## Haris Ali2140

*Super Mushshak Flies with Genesys Aerosystems Glass Cockpit*
March 25, 2020






*Kamra, Pakistan* (March 25, 2020) – A Pakistan Aeronautical Complex MFI-17 Super Mushshak made a successful first flight with a full Genesys Aerosystems glass cockpit today. The Super Mushshak is a rugged and proven military training aircraft capable of +7 and -3 Gs and features automatic, hands-off spin recovery. The two-seat aircraft is equipped with three Genesys flight displays, dual solid-state gyro/air-data sensors, and dual GPS receivers. The system also includes dual Genesys digital multi-mode radios with integrated VHF COM, UHF COM, VHF NAV, localizer/glideslope, and marker beacon, triple-redundant Flight Management System (FMS), radio/audio management, and Terrain Awareness and Warning System (TAWS), and digital engine/systems display.

“The Genesys team and local partner UIT worked closely with the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex’s Aircraft Manufacturing Factory to complete the system design, integration, installation, and first flight in less than six months,” says Gordon Pratt, Genesys Aerosystems’ Chief Growth Officer. “Genesys is transferring technology for local manufacturing of key components for long-term sustainability.”

“UIT is proud to team with Genesys Aerosystems in Pakistan and facilitate the technology transfer and local manufacturing of Genesys products to support Pakistani military training aircraft,” says Mr. Purvis Hussain, United International Technologies’ Managing Director. “The Genesys suite is also being considered for the Pakistan Air Force Mirage modernization program.”

The MIL-STD qualified, and NVG-compatible Genesys avionics offer robust and flexible performance for the demanding military training environment and are available for both OEM new production and modernization of the Super Mushshak fleet.

*About Genesys Aerosystems*

Genesys Aerosystems is a leading provider of integrated avionics systems for military and civil customers. Genesys Aerosystems’ avionics systems include synthetic vision with three-dimensional highway-in-the-sky navigation, integrated flight management and hazard alerting, and ultra-compact, highly ruggedized sensors that provide ultimate customer benefits of increased safety, improved dispatch rates, mission flexibility, and seamless future growth. Approved for all classes of aircraft, the company’s uniquely customizable open-architecture systems dramatically reduce integration costs and schedules for both OEM and retrofit applications. For more information, visit: https://www.genesys-aerosystems.com

*United International Technologies (UIT)*

UIT a leading provider of Aerospace & Defense solutions for the Pakistani Military, it is led by a team of experienced professionals including those that have had distinguished careers in the Pakistan Army, Pakistan Navy, and Pakistan Air force. It is supported by an extensive network of representatives in key centres of defence in Pakistan. UIT is not just an alternative to an in-house office for global companies but is designed to provide expertise that helps identify new business opportunities, explore avenues for product growth, transfer-of-technology and indigenous production capabilities to rationalize cost-effective solutions and long-term logistics supportability. For more information, visit: https://www.uit-pak.com

https://genesys-aerosystems.com/news/super-mushshak-flies-with-genesys-aerosystems-glass-cockpit

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## khanasifm

Haris Ali2140 said:


> *Super Mushshak Flies with Genesys Aerosystems Glass Cockpit*
> March 25, 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Kamra, Pakistan* (March 25, 2020) – A Pakistan Aeronautical Complex MFI-17 Super Mushshak made a successful first flight with a full Genesys Aerosystems glass cockpit today. The Super Mushshak is a rugged and proven military training aircraft capable of +7 and -3 Gs and features automatic, hands-off spin recovery. The two-seat aircraft is equipped with three Genesys flight displays, dual solid-state gyro/air-data sensors, and dual GPS receivers. The system also includes dual Genesys digital multi-mode radios with integrated VHF COM, UHF COM, VHF NAV, localizer/glideslope, and marker beacon, triple-redundant Flight Management System (FMS), radio/audio management, and Terrain Awareness and Warning System (TAWS), and digital engine/systems display.
> 
> “The Genesys team and local partner UIT worked closely with the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex’s Aircraft Manufacturing Factory to complete the system design, integration, installation, and first flight in less than six months,” says Gordon Pratt, Genesys Aerosystems’ Chief Growth Officer. “Genesys is transferring technology for local manufacturing of key components for long-term sustainability.”
> 
> “UIT is proud to team with Genesys Aerosystems in Pakistan and facilitate the technology transfer and local manufacturing of Genesys products to support Pakistani military training aircraft,” says Mr. Purvis Hussain, United International Technologies’ Managing Director. “The Genesys suite is also being considered for the Pakistan Air Force Mirage modernization program.”
> 
> The MIL-STD qualified, and NVG-compatible Genesys avionics offer robust and flexible performance for the demanding military training environment and are available for both OEM new production and modernization of the Super Mushshak fleet.
> 
> *About Genesys Aerosystems*
> 
> Genesys Aerosystems is a leading provider of integrated avionics systems for military and civil customers. Genesys Aerosystems’ avionics systems include synthetic vision with three-dimensional highway-in-the-sky navigation, integrated flight management and hazard alerting, and ultra-compact, highly ruggedized sensors that provide ultimate customer benefits of increased safety, improved dispatch rates, mission flexibility, and seamless future growth. Approved for all classes of aircraft, the company’s uniquely customizable open-architecture systems dramatically reduce integration costs and schedules for both OEM and retrofit applications. For more information, visit: https://www.genesys-aerosystems.com
> 
> *United International Technologies (UIT)*
> 
> UIT a leading provider of Aerospace & Defense solutions for the Pakistani Military, it is led by a team of experienced professionals including those that have had distinguished careers in the Pakistan Army, Pakistan Navy, and Pakistan Air force. It is supported by an extensive network of representatives in key centres of defence in Pakistan. UIT is not just an alternative to an in-house office for global companies but is designed to provide expertise that helps identify new business opportunities, explore avenues for product growth, transfer-of-technology and indigenous production capabilities to rationalize cost-effective solutions and long-term logistics supportability. For more information, visit: https://www.uit-pak.com
> 
> https://genesys-aerosystems.com/news/super-mushshak-flies-with-genesys-aerosystems-glass-cockpit




Mirages and mushaq ?? 
https://genesys-aerosystems.com/news/super-mushshak-flies-with-genesys-aerosystems-glass-cockpit


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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> Mirages and mushaq ??
> https://genesys-aerosystems.com/news/super-mushshak-flies-with-genesys-aerosystems-glass-cockpit


Sweet ... time to refresh the ROSE upgrade which dates back to the 90s now.


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## Maxpane



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## GriffinsRule

Well guess we found who are the new buyers from Africa

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## fatman17

Potential buyers. Zimbabwe is bankrupt btw


GriffinsRule said:


> Well guess we found who are the new buyers from Africa

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## airomerix

2009 upgrade.

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## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


> Mirages and mushaq ??
> https://genesys-aerosystems.com/news/super-mushshak-flies-with-genesys-aerosystems-glass-cockpit



this is one package under consideration I am sure there are other too ....



GriffinsRule said:


> Well guess we found who are the new buyers from Africa




Not announced yet By pac correct ?? Senegal was also mentioned some where


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## denel

araz said:


> Not going to happen as we are short of money and resources(Material and man power). PAC may have looked at it if there was a niche for export available but with China creating competing birds they will not allow further development of a bird which could hinder the progress of their own birds.
> A


It is about having a long term vision even a concept.


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## araz

denel said:


> It is about having a long term vision even a concept.


You are right. However here one is dependent on another nation and that nation has competing interests

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## nomi007

Pakistan now need to spend some for R&D in order developed new variant of Mushahak like
TAI Hürkuş

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## Sulman Badshah

nomi007 said:


> Pakistan now need to spend some for R&D in order developed new variant of Mushahak like
> TAI Hürkuş
> View attachment 645334


Hurkus is supposed to replace T37 role in PAF ... Super Mushshak is non replaceable right now which is being used for initial flying training

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## denel

araz said:


> You are right. However here one is dependent on another nation and that nation has competing interests


I do not know if you are aware of Sling aircraft. It started off as a kit design and now full production line with many variations with top class design and control system. My university, the aeronautical dept is producing world class leading powered and unpowered gliders. I was surprised to see Sam Chui using it in his flight school in US as well. Have a look at it when you get a chance. You need an independent entrepreneurial spirit unconstrained by red tape or run by incompetence.

Just compare the clean instrumentation of Sling vs Super Mushaq. Just those switches alone need to go on the entire bottom panel.

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## imrankhan7250

Update on Turkish Air Force: MFI-17 Super Mushshak 🇵🇰 🇹🇷

Chairman PAC Kamra Air Marshal Noman has confirmed Alan Warnes that first MFI-17 Super Mushshak for Turkish Air Force has been rolled out of the paint job.

Keep in mind that TAF ordered 52x Super Mushshaks.

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## fatman17

#PACKamra Chairman, Air Marshal Noman told me last week the first MFI-17 Super Mushshak for the @TurkishAirForce has been rolled out of the paint shop. It looks smart. The first of 52 on order.

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## Reichmarshal

any pics ???


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## fatman17

Not yet


Reichmarshal said:


> any pics ???


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## aziqbal

Great cant wait for the photos 

really what a good deal, 52 units is a good order 

we should market our products as this 

basic trainer + advanced trainer + lead in fighter trainer 

Super Mushshak+ K-8+ JF17B 

we would do well with exports


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## blinder

Some Turkish Super Mushshaks were visible at final assembly in the documentary aired by Rozenews in March, all white... It also showed some in production so by now there should be enough ready to deliver!

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## Muhammad Omar

Turkish Super Mushshak Aircraft

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## nomi007



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## ghazi52

MFI-17 Mushshak Iran Revolutionary Guard At Tehran Mehrabad Airport, Iran. 










Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) Super Mushshak.
© Zohaib Malik

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## Dazzler



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## nomi007

Old video but cool

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## nomi007



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## Windjammer



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## Titanium100

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 776069
> 
> 
> View attachment 776070
> 
> 
> View attachment 776071
> 
> 
> View attachment 776072



There is Pakistani flag? is Pakistan somehow involved in this

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## Windjammer

Titanium100 said:


> There is Pakistani flag? is Pakistan somehow involved in this


Dear Lord Man, these are being produced at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC)
Which also Manufactures the JF-17 and K-8.

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## RAMPAGE

Windjammer said:


> Dear Lord Man, these are being produced at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC)
> Which also Manufactures the JF-17 and K-8.


Probably referring to the Pakistan Army. Notice the flag, which probably signifies that the aircraft is operational with PAA.


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## Hassan Imtiaz

RAMPAGE said:


> Probably referring to the Pakistan Army. Notice the flag, which probably signifies that the aircraft is operational with PAA.


Yes a significant number is used by Pak Army, though I wonder in what capacity does army uses these aircrafts?


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## Imran Khan

Titanium100 said:


> There is Pakistani flag? is Pakistan somehow involved in this


formula yaad a gya ustaad

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## iLION12345_1

Hassan Imtiaz said:


> Yes a significant number is used by Pak Army, though I wonder in what capacity does army uses these aircrafts?


They are trainer aircraft so Training. Also recon.

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## Bossman

iLION12345_1 said:


> They are trainer aircraft so Training. Also recon.


Liaison and Utility

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## iLION12345_1

Bossman said:


> Liaison and Utility


“Utility” would not be a term I’d use for them. Utility means general tasks, which the mushak cannot do (transporting passengers Or cargo). It’s an aerobatic plane built _*specifically *_ to be a trainer, which is what it’s used for, alongside Recce and yes some liason.

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## Bossman

iLION12345_1 said:


> “Utility” would not be a term I’d use for them. Utility means general tasks, which the mushak cannot do (transporting passengers Or cargo). It’s an aerobatic plane built _*specifically *_ to be a trainer, which is what it’s used for, alongside Recce and yes some liason.


They are used for transporting passenger and for artillery observations. It can also be used for light ground attack. It’s a three seater

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## arjunk

Bossman said:


> It’s a three seater


Where is the third seat?

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## Bossman

arjunk said:


> Where is the third seat?


See the window under the wing. Not a comfortable one.

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## Windjammer

Nigerian Super Mushaks were fitted for COIN Operations.

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## hussain0216

Windjammer said:


> Nigerian Super Mushaks were fitted for COIN Operations.
> 
> View attachment 776241



Would this be a option for Pakistan for our own anti terrorist operations or do we just have better options and this is not needed


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## Bossman

hussain0216 said:


> Would this be a option for Pakistan for our own anti terrorist operations or do we just have better options and this is not needed


Sitting ducks for DhsKas.

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## khanasifm

??

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## hassan1



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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460530363155947531

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## khanasifm

Iraq flag ?? So back for mashaq they had canceled or delayed sales last time


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460637337633886216


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Super Mushshak gets atleast 2xnew contracts. Stay tuned for further details...........

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## denel

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Super Mushshak gets atleast 2xnew contracts. Stay tuned for further details...........
> View attachment 794751



What i would like to see a good marketing on the civilian side. There is a huge market. Sling here has taken the world with a storm; including a complete around the world trip as well.

I dont even see these folks even attempt to market at Oshkosh show. Trying to take it from Pak all the way transatlantic would be a great journey.

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## Nomad40

denel said:


> What i would like to see a good marketing on the civilian side. There is a huge market. Sling here has taken the world with a storm; including a complete around the world trip as well.
> 
> I dont even see these folks even attempt to market at Oshkosh show. Trying to take it from Pak all the way transatlantic would be a great journey.


Absolutely I was thinking about this some time back...This would make an excellent relatively high performance Trainer. over here Vans aircraft is in boost and why not those things can over take 152s and 172s in a blink.

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## denel

Nomad40 said:


> Absolutely I was thinking about this some time back...This would make an excellent relatively high performance Trainer. over here Vans aircraft is in boost and why not those things can over take 152s and 172s in a blink.


Agreed. I had said this last year. There is a lot of potential on the civilian side but as normal, never capitalised.

To show its capability as a long range - it can easily by done. Below is Sling's first round the world. It will successfully demonstrate the hardening of the aircraft's capabilities. Plus there is enough space to add additional fuel tanks for long range.

Long back, there was a german aviator i met who came down with his son in the original Saab Safari flying all the way south from Germany. If they can do it with basic VFR back then, now with Gensys toys and others - Super Mushak demoing this around the world capability ready serves two things;

1. Demo of its capability (airframe, engine, avionics, comms)
- note one gap identified in southern space - hf transceiver is a must which sling did not carry
2. Ability to traverse across different regions and flying conditions especially hot/high/tropical - ITCZ is a mother region.
3. Reliability of entire systems as a whole
4. Continuous connection and live tracking of progress - Attract local kids and enthusiasts across the world.
5. Name branding and presence available in civilian market - Noone knows of Pak as a maker of small aircraft even though it is out there for decades.
6. Oshkosh is the key. Fly over to Oshkosh as part of this journey is key demonstrator
7. Accessories in the civilian market are a huge mark up as well.





REf: Slign blogspot.


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## khanasifm

What two new counties are interested ?? Anyone


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## TsAr

denel said:


> Agreed. I had said this last year. There is a lot of potential on the civilian side but as normal, never capitalised.
> 
> To show its capability as a long range - it can easily by done. Below is Sling's first round the world. It will successfully demonstrate the hardening of the aircraft's capabilities. Plus there is enough space to add additional fuel tanks for long range.
> 
> Long back, there was a german aviator i met who came down with his son in the original Saab Safari flying all the way south from Germany. If they can do it with basic VFR back then, now with Gensys toys and others - Super Mushak demoing this around the world capability ready serves two things;
> 
> 1. Demo of its capability (airframe, engine, avionics, comms)
> - note one gap identified in southern space - hf transceiver is a must which sling did not carry
> 2. Ability to traverse across different regions and flying conditions especially hot/high/tropical - ITCZ is a mother region.
> 3. Reliability of entire systems as a whole
> 4. Continuous connection and live tracking of progress - Attract local kids and enthusiasts across the world.
> 5. Name branding and presence available in civilian market - Noone knows of Pak as a maker of small aircraft even though it is out there for decades.
> 6. Oshkosh is the key. Fly over to Oshkosh as part of this journey is key demonstrator
> 7. Accessories in the civilian market are a huge mark up as well.
> 
> View attachment 796028
> 
> REf: Slign blogspot.


not marketing to civilians could also be due to production capability. PAC is a govt organization with focus on Pakistan military first. Civilian demand would mean increasing capacity which I am not sure they are willing to take.

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## Thorough Pro

pretty sharp colour scheme



FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Super Mushshak gets atleast 2xnew contracts. Stay tuned for further details...........
> View attachment 794751


----------



## SQ8

denel said:


> What i would like to see a good marketing on the civilian side. There is a huge market. Sling here has taken the world with a storm; including a complete around the world trip as well.
> 
> I dont even see these folks even attempt to market at Oshkosh show. Trying to take it from Pak all the way transatlantic would be a great journey.


Please - you expect too much out of the Pakistani military mind. There is a cultural ceiling they will NEVER be able to break in the next 30 years and by that time it will be too late.

Attempts have been made before to market POF arms in the US with expats wanting to even try getting the Mushak in CKD. Too many people want their palms wetted or the least their feet touched and stamp. Every possible hurdle that can be put into the way of someone trying to improve or add something to Pakistan is put up by the Pakistani state regardless of military or civilian,

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## denel

SQ8 said:


> Please - you expect too much out of the Pakistani military mind. There is a cultural ceiling they will NEVER be able to break in the next 30 years and by that time it will be too late.
> 
> Attempts have been made before to market POF arms in the US with expats wanting to even try getting the Mushak in CKD. Too many people want their palms wetted or the least their feet touched and stamp. Every possible hurdle that can be put into the way of someone trying to improve or add something to Pakistan is put up by the Pakistani state regardless of military or civilian,


Exactly; they have no IQ - they suffer from a glorification pedestal complex.

They sit on a cash cow and just get nothing done. Selling just a couple and it makes press news. Heaven sakes man, Sling has sold more than what these folks have sold since their inception. 

They have no incentive to do any better.

Just imagine - what if the circumnavigation of this aircraft was all female crew!. Just giving the PR possibilities but that wont happen.


TsAr said:


> not marketing to civilians could also be due to production capability. PAC is a govt organization with focus on Pakistan military first. Civilian demand would mean increasing capacity which I am not sure they are willing to take.


Thanks friend. 

That shows there is an issue with capacity planning overall. Project management 101 principles and schedule planning. You are selling and this cash cow can be used in many ways. @SQ8.

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## Imran Khan

RSAF super mashaq flying over riyadh 20 years after delivered .
January 18, 2020​

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## abdullah_khan

Kindly read my post below related to the crash of PAF MFI-17 Super Mushshak. I have something important to share. Thanks

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/notify-paf-aircraft-crashes.3718/post-13661939


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## ghazi52

.,.,
MFI-395 SM of Azerbaijan AF during final assembly at PAC Kamra. Azerbaijan has ordered 10x SM out of which at least 5x have been delivered...


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAC Kamra will deliver 52x MFI-395 Super Mushshak trainer aircraft to Turkish Air Force by the end of year 2022, Super Mushshak will replace SF-260D aircraft in service with Turkish Air Force


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## ziya

3 of them have been accepted by Turkish air force


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## Tempest II

Super Men Producing Super Mushshak – Second To None Pakistan Air Force Magazine







secondtononepaf.com







> “It is a great achievement, and we are proud of it,” the AVM said. This is not all. The contracts signing ceremonies for the sale and support of Super Mushshak aircraft have now become a routine at PAC Kamra. Most recently, the aircraft added a new customer, Zimbabwe, that wants a dozen new Super Mushshak for its air force and it wants none other than AMF to build them.

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## Tempest II

fatman17 said:


> Potential buyers. Zimbabwe is bankrupt btw


People find the money for what they feel is important. We will revisit this discussion in a few months. Prepare to be surprised.

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