# Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated



## fatman17

*Pakistan Army Aviation Corps* - Updated

GENERAL | *ORDER OF BATTLE *| INVENTORY | BASES


Order of Battle Notes

6 Army Aviation Sqn was disbanded in 2002 but it is believed the squadron was reformed to operate newly-delivered Bell 412EP helicopters during 2005.

HQ Rawalpindi 
HQ Pakistan Armed Forces

HQ Pakistan Army

Qasim AAB, Rawalpindi 
HQ Pakistan Army Aviation Corps

Lahore AAB 
2 (Composite) Army Aviation Squadron

MFI-17 Mushshak

SA.316B Alouette III

Multan AAB 
3 Army Aviation Squadron

MFI-17 Mushshak

SA.315B Lama

Islamabad AAB 
6 Army Aviation Squadron

AW139

Bell 412EP

Sharea Faisal AAB, Karachi 
7 Army Aviation Squadron

IAR-316B Alouette III

MFI-17 Mushshak

SA.316B Alouette III

8 (Composite) Army Aviation Squadron

AS.350B3 Écureuil

MFI-17 Mushshak

Peshawar AAB 
9 (Composite) Army Aviation Squadron

MFI-17 Mushshak

SA.315B Lama

SA.316B Alouette III

Inter-Service Intelligence Department

Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'

Rahwali AAB 
303rd Aviation Group

MFI-17 Mushshak

TH-300C

UH-1H Iroquois

*101st Aviation Group*

13 Army Aviation Squadron

Aero Commander 690C Super

AS.350B3 Écureuil

Beech 200 Super King Air

Cessna 421C Golden Eagle

Cessna 550 Citation II Bravo

Cessna 560 Citation V

Gulfstream Jetprop 840

IAR-330L Puma

MFI-17 Mushshak

Mi-172 'Hip-H'

SA.330J Puma

UH-1H Iroquois

Y-12 II Turbo Panda

21 Army Aviation Squadron

Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'

Mi-17-V5 'Hip'

27 Army Aviation Squadron

Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'

Mi-17-V5 'Hip'

HQ Flight

MFI-17 Mushshak

Quetta Airfield 
202nd Aviation Group

MFI-17 Mushshak

4 Army Aviation Squadron

Bell 412EP

Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'

Gilgit AAB 
Detachment

Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'

Rahwali AAB 
Detachment

Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'

Qasim AAB, Rawalpindi 
24 Army Aviation Squadron

IAR-330L Puma

SA.330J Puma

UH-1H Iroquois

Multan AAB 
25 Army Aviation Squadron

Bell 412EP

Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'

Gilgit AAB 
Detachment

HQ Flight

Multan AAB 
*404th Aviation Group*

MFI-17 Mushshak

31 Army Aviation Squadron

AH-1S Cobra

Bell 206B-2 JetRanger

Bell 206B-3 JetRanger

33 Army Aviation Squadron

AH-1S Cobra

Bell 206B-2 JetRanger

Bell 206B-3 JetRanger

35 Army Aviation Squadron

AH-1F Cobra

Bell 206B-2 JetRanger

Bell 206B-3 JetRanger

10 Army Aviation Squadron

MFI-17 Mushshak

SA.315B Lama

SA.316B Alouette III

Rahwali AAB 
11 Army Aviation Squadron

MFI-17 Mushshak

SA.315B Lama

Mangla AAB 
1 Army Aviation Squadron

MFI-17 Mushshak

SA.316B Alouette III

12 Army Aviation Squadron

MFI-17 Mushshak

UH-1H Iroquois

Skardu AAB 
5 Army Aviation Squadron

AS.350B3 Écureuil

Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'

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## fatman17

*Pakistan Army Aviation Corps*

Notes:


AS.550B3 Fennec
- Note: It is believed that 10 examples of this type were ordered during 2007, with deliveries expected to take place from late 2009 onwards, but that this acquisition has now been cancelled.

SE.3160 Alouette III
- Note: Any surviving examples were upgraded to SA.316B standard

 AW139 
- In service from May 2009

- Note: Of the 5 examples being acquired, 2 are to assume duties as VIP/VVIP transports whilst the remaining 3 will be fitted to undertake humanitarian relief operations. All 5 were delivered between May & October 2009

AH-1S Cobra 
- Note: All of the airframes are in the process of undergoing upgrades to AH-1F configuration for conformity with newly-delivered former US Army examples arriving in 2007 & 2008. One Cobra is currently stored in a damaged condition following an accident

 Bell 412EP 
- In service from 2005

- Note: The vast majority of the Bell 412EPs are operated on behalf of the Ministry of Interior. The attrition losses occurred on 21st June 2006 & 6th February 2008. 

UH-1H Iroquois
- Note: 40 airframes were due from the US via FMS (20 airworthy plus 20 for spares), but this acquisition appears to have been cancelled

IAR-330L Puma  
- Note: All 4 are configured for VIP transportation tasks.

Mi-172 'Hip-H'  
- Note: 3 aircraft delivered during the second half of 2008. All are configured for the VVIP & presidential transportation role.

Mi-17-V5 'Hip' 
- Note: Some of the Mi-17 Hips previously believed to have been Mi-17-IV variants are now confirmed as being Kazan-built Mi-17V5s, delivered in the mid-2000s. Another 2 aircraft were delivered during the second half of 2008. Both are configured for the MedEvac & SAR role. It is believed that another 4 have been acquired on a temporary basis in late 2009 via the US Army TSMO (Threat Systems Management Office) at Ft.Bliss, TX to assist with anti-Taliban operations in-country

Hughes 500 
- Note: Formerly operated by the Inter-Service Intelligence Department (ISI) in very small numbers

Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'  
- Note: As many as 32 Mi-17-1V models are reported to have been acquired in a large batch delivered between 2002 & 2008. A further 6 Mi-17 (Mi-8MTV-1) helicopters have been leased from the US Department of Defense for use in ongoing anti-Taliban operations in the Swat Valley, having been delivered in late June 2009. The most recent attrition losses have been on 5th August 2004 & 3rd July 2009, the latter resulting in 26 fatalities. Another loss occurred on 24th October 2009, during fighting in the Bajaur tribal region, causing 3 fatalities aboard the helicopter.

 Mi-24V 'Hind-E'  
- Note: Captured ex-Afghan example believed to have been in recent use.

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## Super Falcon

thanx for usefull info friends heads foo to you.


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## ghazi52

Thanks for useful information.
Is Tarbela AAB in the list.

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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2010 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

*Pakistan looks to modernise fleet with AH-1Zs*

Craig Caffrey Jane's Aviation Analyst -London

*Pakistan is looking to acquire a number of AH-1Z attack helicopters as a medium-term replacement for its ageing Cobras.*

Washington expects Pakistan to purchase the Bell AH-1Z Viper (Super Cobra) as a medium-term replacement for its current fleet of AH-1F/S Cobra attack helicopters, according to a new report on US assistance for Islamabad. 

*The US State Department's Pakistan Assistance Strategy Report, published in December 2009, states that the "Pakistan Army envisions acquiring 20 AH-1Z Cobras" at an expected cost of "at least USD500 million for the helicopters alone, with a total acquisition cost up to USD1 billion". The department expects that the army will seek US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) in order to facilitate the deal. *

*Deliveries could potentially proceed from 2015 onwards once the AH-1Z becomes available for export. However, requirements could be met before this date through either increased production or by allowing Pakistan to purchase units currently allocated for the US Marine Corps. Should the procurement proceed in this timeframe Pakistan could become the first export customer for the type. *

Pakistan's current fleet of 39 AH-1F/S Cobras have been heavily utilised as part of the country's ongoing counter-insurgency campaign and are seen by military planners in both countries as a key asset. Since 2007 the US has delivered 20 additional AH-1F Cobras to Pakistan in order to expand the capabilities of the army. 

*In order to sustain the current capability at least eight aircraft from the army's existing inventory are due to be refurbished in the short term utilising roughly USD75 million in Fiscal Year 2009 Pakistan Counterinsurgency Funds. The modernisation programme has been seen as a priority since 2008, but progress on the programme has been slow as a result of complications within the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) process.* 

*The US is also providing assistance for a programme to arm Pakistan's 24 Bell 412 utility helicopters as an interim measure until new attack helicopters can be acquired. *

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## Stealth

man AH1Z WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

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## Blackpearl

ghazi52 said:


> Thanks for useful information.
> Is Tarbela AAB in the list.



Tarbela aviation base was used extensively during operation rah-i-rast. I think squadrons of AH-1F cobra helicopters, Bell 412 and MI-17 were temporarily placed there in May last year. On google earth, it seems not as a big base, rather an airstrip only. so permanently may not be occupied. However, being in closer to SSG HQ, a small flight of MI-17s may be stationed there as a quick reaction force, to ferry anywhere in the country.

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

what about euro copter tiger..... there were news that Pakistan is getting 18 of them

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## wjcking

any photos , bro

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON



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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON



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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON



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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON



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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON



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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON



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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON



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## MZUBAIR

These copters(Euro) not in Pak Aviation, so y so much photos ?


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

some of the brother asked for pics , and it was news that Pakistan was going to buy 18 of them. but i think latter AH-1Z was preferred by Pakistan army. for me tiger is very capable attack helicopter. but solid reason for opting king cobra is that Pakistan army is used to it and will be easy to operate it. Also king cobra is double engine and more powerful. Are our present cobras capable to carry helfire ?


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

ah-1z viper

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

ah-1s


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## Blackpearl

I request not to post pics on this thread as we may find hundred same pics on other threads. 
Its better we we only stick to discussion.
Thanks


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

i am still confused weather we are getting king cobra or viper ....... cos there is difference among both. viper is latest version of cobra.


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## fatman17

*Terror in the Tribal Zone*

AFM&#8217;s Alan Warnes travels to Pakistan to report on the Army Aviation&#8217;s fight against the Taliban and al Qaeda.

detailed report in AirForces Monthly - March 2010 issue !


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> *Terror in the Tribal Zone*
> 
> AFMs Alan Warnes travels to Pakistan to report on the Army Aviations fight against the Taliban and al Qaeda.
> 
> detailed report in AirForces Monthly - March 2010 issue !



9 page detailed article with nice pictures.

posting the last paragraph.

*What Next?*

with the fighting in the west showing no signs of going away, the PAA is looking to expand its inventory even further. There are around 25 more Mi-17s on order, while another 20 Bell 412s are expected to arrive around mid 2010, to replace the Bell 206s. According to the GOC, they will arrive with properly mounted machine guns.

The GoC acknowledged that what he needs now more than anything else are new attack helicopters. The Cobras are from a bygone era with dated technologies and now they need something more spohisticated.

In 2008 the PAA visited Spain to have a look at the Eurocopter Tigre, and while the US will not export AH-64 Apaches equipped with the capable Hellfire missile, it seems they are on the verge of offering the latest Cobra derivative --the AH-1Z. Defeating the taliban and al-qaeda in the FATA region was never going to be easy, but if the Americans really want Pakistan to oust what is the number one threat to world peace, it has to seriously look at providing the PAA with the right tools to do the right job quickly...

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## fatman17

^if anyone wants the complete pdf file - pls PM me your e-mail address and i will do the needful.


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## Blackpearl

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> ah-1s



Can anybody tell which helo out of these two is capable to fire TOW at night and which is not


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## Wingman

Good Work FATMAN!!!!!

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## Super Falcon

why not get 10 apaches than 20 cobras


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## razgriz19

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> i am still confused weather we are getting king cobra or viper ....... cos there is difference among both. viper is latest version of cobra.



the article on the previous page says that pakistan might aquire AH-1Z(which is viper)
AH-1Z Viper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## razgriz19

Super Falcon said:


> why not get 10 apaches than 20 cobras



these cobras are pretty advanced, and are comparable to apaches.
by the way...rite now PA wants quantity not quality!
viper can do the same job as apache....


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## Mercenary

So where is India crying to USA that these AH-1Z 20 Viper Gunships will alter the balance in South Asia?


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## TOPGUN

Mercenary said:


> So where is India crying to USA that these AH-1Z 20 Viper Gunships will alter the balance in South Asia?



Because they the indians like to cry like a little baby with nothing to back up .. let them cry  its a practice they won't give up why even bother wasting our time on them


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## manglasiva

Heliz r slow flying easy meat to India's superior SAM, no matter what u use.. flares or other stuff to deflect...thats why Indian's r not crying...
PS: am not a defense expert, nor I wish to troll or spoil the thread or forum.....


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## sadiqams

a mixed bunch!


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## Super Falcon

it is a history sir that indian use to cry when pakistan even buys a bullet


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## sherdil76

Blackpearl said:


> Can anybody tell which helo out of these two is capable to fire TOW at night and which is not



left wala bhaiya... that is what american originally given us then we bought some nightvision kits for which yankees demanded a hafty amount for installation... we had no option but to keep them in safe for long, later AWC did a great job using the local resources at considerable cheap price, which not only benefited the army but what AWC earned (money and experience) was utlised in JF-17 and another classified project 

the best thing i like about AWC is that, mostly they are young people with creative minds and motivation hence they proved themselves as more successful in R&D organisations.

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## fatman17

two additional Bell 412EP - armed light helos, first two of 25 additional examples delivered to PAA at Qasim base.

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## Hyde

*US delivers two Bell helicopters to Pakistan Army​*

Updated at: 2239 PST, Tuesday, May 18, 2010
ISLAMABAD: *The United States government Tuesday delivered two Bell 412 EP helicopters to the Government of Pakistan to assist the Pakistan military in its counter-insurgency efforts.*

The U.S. Army Brig. General Michael Nagata handed over the helicopters to Brig. Tippu Karim, 101 Army Aviation Commander during a signing ceremony at Qasim Army Air Base in Rawalpindi, said a press release of the US embassy issued here today.

The U.S. purchased the two enhanced-performance utility transport helicopters, valued at $24 million, to support Pakistans counterinsurgency operations. The U.S. also provided $20 million in associated spare parts, special tools and other equipment to support the aircraft.

The purchase of the aircraft demonstrates the United States full commitment to a stable, long-term strategic partnership with Pakistan-one based on shared interests and mutual respect that will continue to expand and deepen in future years, Brig. Gen. Nagata said during the ceremony.

During the last three years, U.S. civilian and security assistance to Pakistan has totaled more than $4 billion. Assistance provided and delivered has included support for medical aid, school refurbishment, bridge and well reconstruction, food distribution, agricultural and education projects.

Specific security assistance includes 14 F-16 fighter aircraft, 10 Mi-17 helicopters, more than 450 vehicles for Pakistans Frontier Corps, hundreds of night vision goggles, day/night scopes, radios, and thousands of protective vests and first-aid items for Pakistans security forces.

In addition, the U.S. funded and provided training for more than 370 Pakistani military officers in a wide range of leadership and development programs covering topics such as counter terrorism, intelligence, logistics, medical, flight safety, and military law.

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## graphican

2 Helicopters to assist army of 140 thousands. How Sweet. Even half hole could have done the job for us.


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## Creder

*thou shant chooseth if thou beg'st*​

*



The U.S. purchased the two enhanced-performance utility transport helicopters, valued at $24 million, to support Pakistan&#8217;s counterinsurgency operations

Click to expand...

*
Notice the word *US Purchased* not pakistan Purchased

Also

*



The U.S. also provided $20 million in associated spare parts, special tools and other equipment to support the aircraft.

Click to expand...

*


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## Frankenstein

Only two of them


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## sparklingway

US delivers two Bell helicopters​​
Wednesday, May 19, 2010
ISLAMABAD: *The United States on Tuesday delivered two Bell 412EP helicopters to Pakistan to assist the country in its counter-insurgency efforts.*

*The US Army Brig General Michael Nagata handed over the helicopters to Brig Tippu Karim, 101 Army Aviation Commander during a signing ceremony at Qasim Army Air Base in Rawalpindi, according to statement issued by the US embassy.

The US purchased the two enhanced-performance utility transport helicopters, valued at $24 million, to support Pakistans counterinsurgency operations. The US also provided $20 million in associated spare parts, special tools and other equipment to support the aircraft.*

The purchase of the aircraft demonstrates the United States full commitment to a stable, long-term strategic partnership with Pakistan-one based on shared interests and mutual respect that will continue to expand and deepen in future years, Brig Gen Nagata said during the ceremony. Specific security assistance includes 14 F-16 fighter aircraft, 10 Mi-17 helicopters, more than 450 vehicles for Pakistans Frontier Corps, hundreds of night vision goggles, day/night scopes, radios, and thousands of protective vests and first-aid items for Pakistans security forces.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Some thing is better then nothing

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## Hyde

Similar thread - http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/58301-us-delivers-two-bell-helicopters-pakistan-army.html


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## TechLahore

Does anyone know if these are armed or not? There are some pretty mean looking Bells in service:

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## Creder

lol tech thou shall also not asketh for any cool gadgeths if thou aint payin jack for the systems


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## TechLahore

Creder said:


> lol tech thou shall also not asketh for any cool gadgeths if thou aint payin jack for the systems



amusing, but do you know that to be the case. $20M buys a lot of rocket pods and machine guns.


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## Creder

not enough dough for Mr 10&#37;, its only possible if our own boys can come up with something or maybe get the turks since they know a lot of stuff about helos


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

TechLahore said:


> amusing, but do you know that to be the case. $20M buys a lot of rocket pods and machine guns.



TaimiKhan said the Bell's were getting upgraded with the Gatling style 'Minigun'.

If that upgrade went through or is in the process of being executed, the newer ones might come with the Minigun.

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## TechLahore

^^ the Gatling-style minigun is featured in the second picture in my post above.


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## fatman17

already reported in PAA update thread - pls merge

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## TaimiKhan

The Gatling guns are manned versions, the ones stationed at the doors. 

Not all will get them, some have and more will, as they will be supporting the ground troops as an attacking platform.

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## Blackpearl

TechLahore said:


> Does anyone know if these are armed or not? There are some pretty mean looking Bells in service:



The first pic is of a scale down model of UH-1 Charlie, no more in production since 1970.
The second pic is showing mock up of Gatling gun and its not an actual gun. The helo is probably parked over an aircraft carrier for display purpose.
The third picture is an armed version of Huey probably D version.
None of the three are of Bell 412 EP.

As a matter of fact, USA has simply made good the loss of 2 x B412 helos of Army, which crashed in last couple of years, thus restoring the original figure of 26, which were given to Pakistan, on lease in 2004 and then permanently transferred to Pakistan in 2007. There is no mention of arming them Gatlings. Maybe, they will be equipped with POF MG3s.

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## kursed

Don't think they're the armed version.

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## ejaz007

*2 More Bell 412s for Pakistans Military*
05-May-2010 12:53 EDT

South Asian news reports identify the helicopters as security assistance aid for the government of Pakistan. The Bell 412EP (Enhanced Performance) is a twin Huey with a 4-bladed rotor; while it lists as a commercial product on Bells site, over 30 militaries around the world employ it as a utility helicopter. Including Pakistan, which has operated 26 Bell 412s since 2007.

*May 18/10:* Well, that was fast. The United States government delivers 2 Bell 412 EP helicopters to the Government of Pakistan during a signing ceremony at Qasim Army Air Base near Rawalpindi, Pakistan. US Embassy, Pakistan.

*April 30/10:* Bell Helicopter Textron, Inc. in Hurst, TX receives a $23.2 million firm-fixed-price contract to buy 2 commercial Bell Helicopter 412EPs, along with logistical support, spare parts package, special tools, and training. Work is to be performed in Quebec, Canada (88%), Piney Flats, TN (8%), and Fort Worth, TX (4%), with an estimated completion date of May 30/12. One bid was solicited with one bid received by the U.S. Army Aviation and Missile Command, CCAM-RD-F in Redstone Arsenal, AL (W58RGZ-10-C-0085). 

2 More Bell 412s for Pakistan&#8217;s Military

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## fatman17

the new and the older 412's will be equipped with twin 50 cal MGs.


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## faisaljaffery

nice copter


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## Blackpearl

fatman17 said:


> the new and the older 412's will be equipped with twin 50 cal MGs.



12.7 mm guns are too heavy and big so that they are fixed on Bells, rather, Pakistan will continue to use MG3/7.62 mm guns in door positions of Bells. I have yet to see any Bell pic with Gatling gun, as reported in some other posts.

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## fatman17

Blackpearl said:


> 12.7 mm guns are too heavy and big so that they are fixed on Bells, rather, Pakistan will continue to use MG3/7.62 mm guns in door positions of Bells. I have yet to see any Bell pic with Gatling gun, as reported in some other posts.



i've been told they will have 'proper' fixed guns which will be easier to operate than the current 'ad hoc' fixing of the 7.62mm guns. in the current position, the gunner is under considerable peril as the spent shells can hit him - he has basically no protection except for the 'goggles' he wears.


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## Blackpearl

fatman17 said:


> i've been told they will have 'proper' fixed guns which will be easier to operate than the current 'ad hoc' fixing of the 7.62mm guns. in the current position, the gunner is under considerable peril as the spent shells can hit him - he has basically no protection except for the 'goggles' he wears.



Sir,
Fixed guns means that the guns will be bore sighted straight ahead along the nose of helo?
so that makes us converting them into gunships.........


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## fatman17

Blackpearl said:


> Sir,
> Fixed guns means that the guns will be bore sighted straight ahead along the nose of helo?
> so that makes us converting them into gunships.........



yes possible....sort of a ALH - this is a interim arrangement until the super vipers are delivered.


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## fatman17

Army Aviation 

History  

In 1947, at the time of independence, Pakistan inherited four fabric covered Auster airplanes. These were part of an &#8220;Air Observation Post Squadron&#8221;, which was deployed in Lahore in support of Punjab Boundary Commission. These four Auster aircrafts were grouped in Chaklala as 1st Air Observation Post flight. 

The first important acquisition of Army Aviation was the induction of L-19s in 1958 and OH-13s which were received after the Korean conflict as part of US Aid. 1960s saw induction of Alloutte-III from France and MI-8s from Russia. With the enhanced canvas now possible, the induction of pilots which was being made from Artillery alone was made open to all arms. It became a separate Corps in 1977.

The next important land mark was the induction of Puma Cargo helicopters from France in 1978 and yet another major leap was the Combat Group raised through 20 Cobra helicopters received from USA in 1985. The decade of nineties saw induction of MI-17 helicopters from Russia.

Army Aviation today has a reckonable fleet poised for a definite and critical role be it peace or war.

Role

Army Aviation provides mainly four types of aviation support during operations of the field Army, namely composite or light aircraft support, cargo, combat and high altitude support. Composite support is available at all times, however, availability of cargo and combat support subjects to Army&#8217;s overall plans.

Light Aircraft Support 
Composite squadron integral to each corps comprises single engine fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft. Tasking of these aircrafts is:- 

Command and liaison. 
Conduct Artillery shoots as authorized observers. 
Act as Airborne Forward Air Controller (FAC). 
Battle field surveillance. 
Reconnaissance. 
Casualty evacuation.

Cargo Aviation Support  
The Cargo Aviation Support comprises cargo helicopters mainly the Pumas and MI-17s. The cargo Aviation support includes the following:- 

Shifting of troops, heavy weapons and equipment to the most threatened sectors. 
Heliborne and anti heliborne operations in support of offensive and defensive operations. 
Support to Aviation Combat Group to establish Aerial Forward Area Arming and Refueling Point (FAARP). 
Specialized transfrontier operations to include raids, ambushes etc. 
Electronic Warfare Operations.

Combat Aviation Support

The Combat Aviation Support comprises the combination of Attack (Cobras) and Scout helicopters (Jet Rangers) grouped into combat flights in a Combat Squadron. The two combat squadrons form part of Aviation Combat Group. 

High Altitude Support

Alouette-III helicopter of French origin was inducted in mid sixties to support the construction of Karakuram Highway. This helicopter proved extremely effective in Northern and AK areas. Siachin conflict, however, confronted Army Aviation with altitudes, where Alouette-III helicopter was stretched to the maximum limits of its capabilities and its load carrying capacity reduced tremendously. A need was felt to induct a suitable high altitude helicopter. Induction of Lama and MI-17 helicopters significantly enhanced Aviation support to troops deployed in high altitudes. However, Alouette-III and Puma helicopters are still operating upto 4000 and 6000 meters respectively. This high altitude aviation support mainly includes:- 

Dumping. 
Shifting of guns/engineer equipment/ radars etc. 
Shifting of troops. 
Recce. 
Casualty evacuation. 
Command and liaison. 


Siachin Operations 
Early eighties saw Siachin flare up and Alouette-III, Lama and Puma helicopters played an important part. Effort generated in last 5 years in FCNA are as under:-

Flying hours 12255 hours. 
Dumping 53572 Tones 

United Nation Missions


Somalia

Combat Group elements were deputed for providing security to the United Nation&#8217;s mission in 1994. The mission was effectively conducted, and aviation elements were the last to withdraw on completion of assignment. Details are as under:- 

Cobra helicopters were provided by United Nations.

Pilots 30 
Engineers 9 
Troops 454 
Hours flown 2480 

Sierra Leone United Nation Mission (UNAMSIL)Aviation contingent deputed for UNAMSIL consists of following pilots/helicopters:-

Puma 3 
Jet Ranger 3 
Cobra 3 
Pilots/Engineers 15 
JCOs/OR 84 


Army Aviation in Support of Friendly Countries

Aviation support has been extended to the friendly countries on numerous occasions for enhancing the friendly ties. Some of these missions are as under:- 

Mozambique
In 1976, on the eve of independence of Mozambique, technical support of pilots, engineers and maintenance persons were despatched to Mozambique for making their helicopters airworthy and training of their pilots / technicians. 


Bangladesh
2 x UH-1H helicopters along with 6 x pilots and 10 x maintenance persons were sent to Bangladesh for Cyclone Relief operations in 1991. 


Sri Lanka May 1971. 
2 x Alouette-III helicopters along with flying and maintenance crew were sent to Sri Lanka in May 1971 to assist them in fighting the insurgency. 


SAARC Summit. 
An Aviation contingent comprising Alouette-III helicopters, 5 x officers and 8 x technicians proceeded to support the Sri Lankan government during SAARC Summit in 1993. 


List of Honours and Awards 

Sitara-i-Jurat 4

Sitara-i-Basalat 5

Tamgha-i-Basalat 15


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## mnmaria20

this is a big matter for getting information


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## Arsalan

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> some of the brother asked for pics , and it was news that Pakistan was going to buy 18 of them. but i think latter AH-1Z was preferred by Pakistan army. for me tiger is very capable attack helicopter. but solid reason for opting king cobra is that Pakistan army is used to it and will be easy to operate it. Also king cobra is double engine and more powerful. Are our present cobras capable to carry helfire ?



brother can you give link to any of these claims.

PA was never going for the Tiger nor the Super Cobra...

there was a rumor that PA is evaluating the tiger but was proved false later. this was discussed to death in a thread on this very forum in Land Forcesm Section

for the Cobras, i am sure that pakistan will be wise enough not to relay on US anymore, not atleast for the purchase of top of the line equipment.

it will be good if PA opts for either of the T-129 or the WZ-10 option!

regards!


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## Nishan_101

Aircraft inventory
Vehicle/System/Aircraft Role Quantity Comments
AH-1F/S Cobra Attack helicopter ~16 One squadron supplied in 2010.[17]
AH-1S Cobra Attack helicopter 17 
AH-1F Cobra Attack helicopter 20 [18]
Aérospatiale Puma Transport helicopter 30 [19]
Mil Mi-17 Transport helicopter 92 according to world Airforces 2009.[20]
Bell 206 Jet Ranger Utility helicopter 15 [19]
Bell 407 Utility helicopter 45 
Bell 412 Utility helicopter 25 [21]
Bell UH-1 Huey Utility helicopter 10 
Eurocopter AS-550 Utility helicopter 50 
Aérospatiale Alouette III Utility helicopter 40 Being phased out.
Aérospatiale SA-315B Lama Utility helicopter 40 Being phased out.


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## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> Aircraft inventory
> Vehicle/System/Aircraft Role Quantity Comments
> AH-1F/S Cobra Attack helicopter ~16 One squadron supplied in 2010.[17]
> AH-1S Cobra Attack helicopter 17
> AH-1F Cobra Attack helicopter 20 [18]
> Aérospatiale Puma Transport helicopter 30 [19]
> Mil Mi-17 Transport helicopter 92 according to world Airforces 2009.[20]
> Bell 206 Jet Ranger Utility helicopter 15 [19]
> Bell 407 Utility helicopter 45
> Bell 412 Utility helicopter 25 [21]
> Bell UH-1 Huey Utility helicopter 10
> Eurocopter AS-550 Utility helicopter 50
> Aérospatiale Alouette III Utility helicopter 40 Being phased out.
> Aérospatiale SA-315B Lama Utility helicopter 40 Being phased out.



sorry friend - many inaccuracies in your post!


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## razgriz19

Nishan_101 said:


> Aircraft inventory
> Vehicle/System/Aircraft Role Quantity Comments
> AH-1F/S Cobra Attack helicopter ~16 One squadron supplied in 2010.[17]
> AH-1S Cobra Attack helicopter 17
> AH-1F Cobra Attack helicopter 20 [18]
> Aérospatiale Puma Transport helicopter 30 [19]
> Mil Mi-17 Transport helicopter 92 according to world Airforces 2009.[20]
> Bell 206 Jet Ranger Utility helicopter 15 [19]
> Bell 407 Utility helicopter 45
> Bell 412 Utility helicopter 25 [21]
> Bell UH-1 Huey Utility helicopter 10
> Eurocopter AS-550 Utility helicopter 50
> Aérospatiale Alouette III Utility helicopter 40 Being phased out.
> Aérospatiale SA-315B Lama Utility helicopter 40 Being phased out.



pa or paf dont operate bell 407s, and as far as i kno we dont that much mi-17s!


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## Nishan_101

so whats the actual fleet is. I man no of choppers plz repli


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## khurasaan1

arsalanaslam123 said:


> brother can you give link to any of these claims.
> 
> PA was never going for the Tiger nor the Super Cobra...
> 
> there was a rumor that PA is evaluating the tiger but was proved false later. this was discussed to death in a thread on this very forum in Land Forcesm Section
> 
> for the Cobras, i am sure that pakistan will be wise enough not to relay on US anymore, not atleast for the purchase of top of the line equipment.
> 
> it will be good if PA opts for either of the T-129 or the WZ-10 option!
> 
> regards!



Alhamdolillah:If PA is going for T-129 or WZ-10 i guess this is wise decision...
I seen WZ-ceiling,carry weight,and speed is more than T-129...
But I want PA to be self sufficient in helis industry too in near future...


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## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> so whats the actual fleet is. I man no of choppers plz repli



go to the 1st few posts and get your answers!!!


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## Cha.Cal

fatman17 said:


> *Terror in the Tribal Zone*
> 
> AFMs Alan Warnes travels to Pakistan to report on the Army Aviations fight against the Taliban and al Qaeda.
> 
> detailed report in AirForces Monthly - March 2010 issue !

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## hassan1

PAK Army Beech B200 Super King Air undergoing work at Cranfield airport,UK

927 Pakistan Army (080510)6 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

927 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

927 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Blackpearl

Cha.Cal said:


>



The person manning MG3 in B412 in the pic is wearing high altitude/snow googles, and not aerial gunner's helmet which has integral transparent and tinted visors which flips down. The advantage of wearing helmet is obvious, and visors provide wide field of view in comparison to googles which have very limited field of view, restriced only to front. See the pictures of USA aerial gunners in the same website, in Iraq, and one of my brother refer to one of the gunner as alien, as he was also having his face covered by black cover. 

2ndly, aerial gunners should also wear characteristic green nomex flight suits instead of donning standard army uniform. Flight suits are made to aviator's mil spec, they are fire retardent (not to confuse with fire resistant) .
The title page Cobra taking off from Multan is assumed to be having no ammo on board, so you may notice that its exhaust Infra red suppressor is mounted. But in the second page, a cobra is landing in FOB, with visible TOW installed, bit you notice the IR suppressor exhaust is missing, means it is removed to lighten the helo, but it is not a good practice, when operating in Taliban area, known to have SAMs.


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## fatman17

Blackpearl said:


> *The person manning MG3 in B412 in the pic is wearing high altitude/snow googles,* and not aerial gunner's helmet which has integral transparent and tinted visors which flips down. The advantage of wearing helmet is obvious, and visors provide wide field of view in comparison to googles which have very limited field of view, restriced only to front. See the pictures of USA aerial gunners in the same website, in Iraq, and one of my brother refer to one of the gunner as alien, as he was also having his face covered by black cover.
> 
> 2ndly, aerial gunners should also wear characteristic green nomex flight suits instead of donning standard army uniform. Flight suits are made to aviator's mil spec, they are fire retardent (not to confuse with fire resistant) .
> The title page Cobra taking off from Multan is assumed to be having no ammo on board, so you may notice that its exhaust Infra red suppressor is mounted. But in the second page, a cobra is landing in FOB, with visible TOW installed, bit you notice the IR suppressor exhaust is missing, means it is removed to lighten the helo, but it is not a good practice, when operating in Taliban area, known to have SAMs.



ad-hoc arrangement as the Bells did not come fitted with the MGs - newer Bells have a MG fitted and the gunner has a proper helmet and gear.


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## Blackpearl

fatman17 said:


> ad-hoc arrangement as the Bells did not come fitted with the MGs - newer Bells have a MG fitted and the gunner has a proper helmet and gear.



With due respect sir, it has been more then 6 yeras, Bell 412 are here, and for the same time, Army is involved in WOT, atleast basic dressing of a soldier should be addressed by this time, These aviator helmets are commercially available for few hunderd dollars, and not embargoed., similarly the flight suits are manufactured by garment factories in Karachi.
Flight Helmets - Flight Suits - Aviation Helmets
Flight Helmets - Flight Suits - Aviation Helmets
and for flight suits
Nomex Flight Suit, Flying Gloves - Lyra (Pvt) Ltd
Flying Coverall Manufacturers, Buyers & Suppliers - ECPlaza


----------



## fatman17

Blackpearl said:


> With due respect sir, it has been more then 6 yeras, Bell 412 are here, and for the same time, Army is involved in WOT, atleast basic dressing of a soldier should be addressed by this time, These aviator helmets are commercially available for few hunderd dollars, and not embargoed., similarly the flight suits are manufactured by garment factories in Karachi.
> Flight Helmets - Flight Suits - Aviation Helmets
> Flight Helmets - Flight Suits - Aviation Helmets
> and for flight suits
> Nomex Flight Suit, Flying Gloves - Lyra (Pvt) Ltd
> Flying Coverall Manufacturers, Buyers & Suppliers - ECPlaza



with due respect address your complaint to the PAA - i've answered your question already. properly fitted MG and gear is now available. what happened 6 yrs ago i cannot answer!


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## Manticore

Helicopters

Chinas tragic May 2008 Sichuan earthquake quickly resulted in a critical spotlight on Chinas helicopter industry; China did not have enough helicopters to quickly meet urgent requirements and Chinas helicopter sector did not produce a heavy-lift (20-ton payload) helicopter like Russias Mil Mi-26, one of which was hired to contribute to earthquake relief. There has since been a commitment to build such a heavy lift helicopter and Russias Mil is likely to be the lead co-development partner, as it may be helping China with a less well reported 13-ton helicopter program. 

While China has greatly increased investment and funding for its helicopter companies in the last 20 years, they have yet to break out a dependence on foreign design assistance and design inspiration. The heavy-lift helicopter program apparently will follow a long list of copied helicopters. During the 1980s the PLA established a strategic relationship with what became Eurocopter and now co-produces five Eurocopter designs: SA321 as the Z-8; AS565 Dauphin as the Z-9; AS350 as the Z-11; EC-120; and the EC-175 as the Z-15. The latest EC-175 is a state-of-the-art 7-ton class helicopter that uses advanced rotor and avionics technology. Previously Eurocopter officials would tell the author that China would not produce a military version of the EC-175 but in late 2009 Eurocopter officials stated that there was no impediment to China making military versions of the Z-15. 

Eurocopter and Italys Agusta provided design assistance for what has become Chinas first modern medium attack helicopter, the Z-10. About the same size as the Agusta A-129 and U.S. Bell A-1W attack helicopter, when produced in numbers it will provide effective tactical support for ground forces. There is some question over what engine the Z-10 will use; prototypes have been powered by Pratt-Whitney Canada PT6C-67C turboshaft, while reports note that Russian and Ukranian engines have been tested on the Z-10. Reports also suggest the Z-10 will use a less powerful but indigenous WZ-9 turboshaft. It is armed with the HJ-10 anti-tank missile that is similar to the U.S. Hellfire.

Russia has sold about 200 of its Mil Mi-8/17 family of 13-ton helicopters to the PLA Army and 18 of the Kamov Ka-28 naval helicopter to the PLA Navy. There are reports as well of program to co-produce the Mi-17 in China. Meanwhile China is benefitting from competitive pressures on helicopter makers to succeed in the China market, which has resulted in relaxations on previous Tiananmen restrictions on the sale of U.S. helicopters to China. For the future, Chinese sources suggest an interest in large tandem rotor helicopters while universities have studied tilt-rotor technology. China is also working on a number of unmanned helicopters from small size to sizes approaching the U.S. Northrop Grumman MQ-8 Fire Scout.

International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinas Aviation Sector: Building Toward World Class Capabilities


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## fatman17

^what does this article have to do with the PAA?


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## air marshal



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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> yes possible....sort of a ALH - this is a interim arrangement until the super vipers are delivered.



sir is there any confirmation about the Viper deal.. i dont think so,, havent heard anything regarding this deal..

well, to say the truth, i dont thing US will be going to give us the Viper serise gunships, they are real mean machines and are as good as anything in attack helicopters family!

if PA do, by grace of God, get these beasts it will be a really great addition. then perhaps we can further strengthen the fleet by induction of some 4 T-129 or WZ-10!!

regards!


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## fatman17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sir is there any confirmation about the Viper deal.. i dont think so,, havent heard anything regarding this deal..
> 
> well, to say the truth, i dont thing US will be going to give us the Viper serise gunships, they are real mean machines and are as good as anything in attack helicopters family!
> 
> if PA do, by grace of God, get these beasts it will be a really great addition. then perhaps we can further strengthen the fleet by induction of some 4 T-129 or WZ-10!!
> 
> regards!



under the CISF fund for pakistan, US500m has been made available for the purchase of 12-14 super vipers by the Obama admn. - the news is listed in many threads.

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## Zulfiqar

> under the CISF fund for pakistan, US500m has been made available for the purchase of 12-14 super vipers by the Obama admn. - the news is listed in many threads.



Are AH-1 Zs vipers coming with Hellfires?


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## razgriz19

M Zulfiqar Asad said:


> Are AH-1 Zs vipers coming with Hellfires?



probably, but they are not coming anytime soon!
PA didn't even order it yet as they are not for sale rite now but will be around 2014-2015.

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> probably, but they are not coming anytime soon!
> PA didn't even order it yet as they are *not for sale rite now* but will be around 2014-2015.



2 options are being considered.

1-divert new helos from the marine corps order-2012.
2-produce for PA starting 2014.


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## Jango

the tiger is very expensive for pakistan so vipers a re a good solution...reportedly a deal has been agreed when the vipers are ready for export they will be sold to pakistan.apache is also rumoured to be coming around that time


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## fatman17

*IAR (Industria Aeronautic&#259; Rom&#226;n&#259*

IAR-316B Alouette III
Delivered;3

IAR-330L Puma
Delivered; 4 
- Note: All 4 are configured for VIP transportation tasks.

IAR-330SM Puma
Delivered;7 
- In service from 2010

- Note: At least 7 Pumas, that have been upgraded by IAR in Romania, were acquired from the UAE during 2009. It is strongly believed that a total of 14 examples are being acquired.

AFI


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## fatman17

*AS550 C3 Fennec*

Delivered; 2 
Current;2

- Note: It is believed that 10 examples of this type were ordered during 2007, with deliveries expected to take place from late 2009 onwards, but that this schedule has been delayed. The first 2 examples are reported to have been delivered by mid-2010, although this may only be for evaluation purposes.


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## Arsalan

nice going..
with the Mi-17 comming in, the Bell 412 and now AS550 C3 Fennec the progress is good in wide spectrum ranginf from heavy lift, medium to light weight copters.

and that too is not buring lots of $$

great!


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## Stealth_fighter

AS550 C3 FENNEC


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## Stealth_fighter

Orders and deliveries

Over 3,150 Fennec helicopters have been ordered, of which 2,500 have been delivered and are operational in over 70 countries.

The delivery of six AS 550 Fennec helicopters to the UAE Air Force was completed in 2008, while the Pakistan Army procured an additional AS 550 Fennec in early 2009.

AS 550 Fennec Single-Engined Light Military Helicopter - Air Force Technology


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## razgriz19

i thinkk army already has AS 550s fennec.....but not sure if its the armed version..


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## razgriz19

* (Mexican Navy: AS555 AF as embarked helicopter)
* (Nepalese Army: AS350 B2 and AS350 B3 as liaison helicopters)
* (*Pakistan Navy: AS350 B3 as observation helicopter*)
* (Military of Paraguay: HB350B as transport, observation and training helicopter)

Eurocopter Fennec

wierd.......................PAK NAVY??


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> * (Mexican Navy: AS555 AF as embarked helicopter)
> * (Nepalese Army: AS350 B2 and AS350 B3 as liaison helicopters)
> * (*Pakistan Navy: AS350 B3 as observation helicopter*)
> * (Military of Paraguay: HB350B as transport, observation and training helicopter)
> 
> Eurocopter Fennec
> 
> wierd.......................PAK NAVY??



incorrect infor - PN does not operate this type!


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> under the CISF fund for pakistan, US500m has been made available for the purchase of 12-14 super vipers by the Obama admn. - the news is listed in many threads.



thanks a lot.
i will google it and if still unable to find i will bother you again for a link to some thread, 

it really is a good news!

regards!


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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> incorrect infor - PN does not operate this type!



maybe they meant to write Pak Army...


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## Stealth_fighter

HOW CAPABLE IS THE ARMED version of this chopers?


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## fatman17

Stealth_fighter said:


> HOW CAPABLE IS THE ARMED version of this chopers?



its a light attack helo - guns and rockets


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## Stealth_fighter

yes sir,but i saw somewhere that they carry tow anti tank missile aswell..


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## fatman17

Stealth_fighter said:


> yes sir,but i saw somewhere that they carry tow anti tank missile aswell..



depends on the modifications - the basic config is gun and rockets - TOWs cld also be a possibility


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## TaimiKhan

Stealth_fighter said:


> yes sir,but i saw somewhere that they carry tow anti tank missile aswell..



The Chinese Armed Version of Z-11 with HJ-8/9 ATGM, Licensed copy of Fennec AS-550. It can also carry rocket pods or 23mm gun.


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## SQ8

Any news of the LOH fennecs that were ordered but then not delivered due to disagreements over equipment fit??


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## TaimiKhan

santro said:


> Any news of the LOH fennecs that were ordered but then not delivered due to disagreements over equipment fit??



Well I do see the Fennecs flying often at Peshawar, but haven't seen any armed or some other special equipped version. 

Are you talking about the simple version or some special one??


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## SQ8

AS 550's that were ordered.. supposedly armed with Gunpods, Rockets and possibly AT missles. With a cockpit mounted sight and other thingamachigs.


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## Stealth_fighter

z-11 looks nice..but still its light attack helo,,,and copy of another


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## fatman17

santro said:


> Any news of the LOH fennecs that were ordered but then not delivered due to disagreements over equipment fit??



after modification 2 of 10 were delivered by june-2010 for T&E before accepting the rest.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> after modification 2 of 10 were delivered by June-2010 for T&E before accepting the rest.


any news regarding who is paying for these modifications and choppers?
will be be from own pockets or will this project we fueled by aid money?

regards!


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## Stealth_fighter

i wish PA have some heavy attack helis..


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## fatman17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> any news regarding who is paying for these modifications and choppers?
> will be be from own pockets or will this project we fueled by aid money?
> 
> regards!



french are because the original helos did not conform to our specs!

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## TaimiKhan

This is what our Bell-412s should be made into, it will provide very good firepower to ground troops with much more accuracy as well as additional firepower. 

The 7.62*51mm caliber should be replaced with the 12.7mm caliber, which will have more devastating firepower. GAU-19 is a good option, or we can ask the Chinese to make one for us with the 12.7mm caliber and use it on our helicopters as the ammo would not be a problem, as we can make it locally. Below is the Chinese 14.5mm caliber Gatling gun.


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> french are because the original helos did not conform to our specs!



sir is the french paying for our choppers and all these upgrades??

i am sorry for asking you again, infact i didnt got you point the first time.

thank you!


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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> This is what our Bell-412s should be made into, it will provide very good firepower to ground troops with much more accuracy as well as additional firepower.
> 
> The 7.62*51mm caliber should be replaced with the 12.7mm caliber, which will have more devastating firepower. GAU-19 is a good option, or we can ask the Chinese to make one for us with the 12.7mm caliber and use it on our helicopters as the ammo would not be a problem, as we can make it locally. Below is the Chinese 14.5mm caliber Gatling gun.



the 30 new Bells are coming in this config - additionally all existing Bell 412's will also be upgraded.

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## fatman17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sir is the french paying for our choppers and all these upgrades??
> 
> i am sorry for asking you again, infact i didnt got you point the first time.
> 
> thank you!



we rpaying for the helos, although the french will foot the bill for modifications as they did not conform to our requirements

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> we rpaying for the helos, although the french will foot the bill for modifications as they did not conform to our requirements



thank you sir for clarification..


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## fatman17

*Qari Imran group plans to target Multan aviation base*

LAHORE: Terrorists belonging to Qari Imran, previously known as Qari Ubaidullah, group are planning to attack Multan Army Aviation Base, sources told Daily Times on Tuesday, quoting intelligence reports.

According to intelligence reports, the potential targets of terrorists are helicopters and other aviation installations. &#8220;It is a serious threat because the Multan base is the headquarters of cobra helicopters,&#8221; sources said. Besides, they said, the maintenance workshops, engineers, aviation fuel and residences of army officers are in that area.

The National Crisis Management Cell of the Ministry of Interior has issued a circular to the Punjab Home Department, IG Punjab police and the Multan regional police officer to take necessary security measures to foil tdesigns of the terrorists. *asad kharal*


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

fatman17 said:


> *Qari Imran group plans to target Multan aviation base*
> 
> LAHORE: Terrorists belonging to Qari Imran, previously known as Qari Ubaidullah, group are planning to attack Multan Army Aviation Base, sources told Daily Times on Tuesday, quoting intelligence reports.
> 
> According to intelligence reports, the potential targets of terrorists are helicopters and other aviation installations. &#8220;It is a serious threat because the Multan base is the headquarters of cobra helicopters,&#8221; sources said. Besides, they said, the maintenance workshops, engineers, aviation fuel and residences of army officers are in that area.
> 
> The National Crisis Management Cell of the Ministry of Interior has issued a circular to the Punjab Home Department, IG Punjab police and the Multan regional police officer to take necessary security measures to foil tdesigns of the terrorists. *asad kharal*



Punjab Government is a failure when it come's to security


----------



## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> *Qari Imran group plans to target Multan aviation base*
> 
> LAHORE: Terrorists belonging to Qari Imran, previously known as Qari Ubaidullah, group are planning to attack Multan Army Aviation Base, sources told Daily Times on Tuesday, quoting intelligence reports.
> 
> According to intelligence reports, the potential targets of terrorists are helicopters and other aviation installations. &#8220;It is a serious threat because the Multan base is the headquarters of cobra helicopters,&#8221; sources said. Besides, they said, the maintenance workshops, engineers, aviation fuel and residences of army officers are in that area.
> 
> The National Crisis Management Cell of the Ministry of Interior has issued a circular to the Punjab Home Department, IG Punjab police and the Multan regional police officer to take necessary security measures to foil tdesigns of the terrorists. *asad kharal*



A serious issue, steps for its protection need to be taken, as any successful attack, even minor one can bring lot of damage to us.

One full infantry unit should be deployed for its protection and perimeter protection should be made a must.


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## farzansaeed07

Sir are we going to buy Apache?


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## razgriz19

farzansaeed07 said:


> Sir are we going to buy Apache?



we cant buy cobras rite now and ur talking about apache!


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## fatman17

*Boeing to Sign Contract with Jordan for 18 to 24 AH-6 Light Attack Helicopter *

By John Reed 

Boeing officials revealed today that they expect to sign a contract with Jordan for 18 to 24 of its new AH-6 light attack choppers by the end of the year while another 36 of the birds are set to go to Saudi Arabia as apart of the $60 billion arms deal recently penned with the United States.

Jordan has been testing the new chopper for nearly a year now, both in the desert Kingdom and in the Southwestern U.S., and in May it signed a letter of intent to buy the aircraft,Mike Burke, Boeing&#8217;s chief of business development for Army rotorcraft said today at the Association of the United States Army&#8217;s annual conference in Washington. The company plans to have its Mesa, Ariz., production line ready to produce the choppers for Jordan soon after the new year with first deliveries expected about 24 months later, according to Burke.

The U.S. defense giant is pitching the revamped MH-6 Little Bird &#8211; which is itself based on the 1960s-vintage OH-6 Cayuse &#8212; to nations around the world who currently fly older versions of the AH-6, AH-1 Cobras and the like. Included in this list is Pakistan, which operates a fleet of about 20 TOW missile-equipped Cobras that it bought in the early 1980s.

Burke went on to say the new chopper, which he describes as a mini-AH-64 Apache, is ideal for the high-altitude and high temprature environments the Pakistani military finds itself fighting Al Qaeda and Taliban militants in.

The new attack helo is perfect for that mission because it can &#8220;get close to and see and take out the enemy&#8221; using everything from laser-guided 70 mm rockets and Hellfire missiles to several miniguns, Burke said. He would not confirm whether the AH-6 will be included in an upcoming batch of military aid the U.S. may deliver to Pakistan soon. That deal includes a provision for attack helicopters.

Overall, Burke and fellow Boeing executives see a market of roughly 1,500 aging attack helos around the world that will need replacement in the coming decades. Interest is flowing from three European NATO members as well as countries throughout the Middle East, Southeast Asia and Latin America, according to Burke.

While it is focused on the international market for now, Boeing can&#8217;t resist pitching the helicopter as an eventual replacement for the U.S. Army&#8217;s ancient OH-58 Kiowa Warrior scout helos. Burke described the AH-6 as providing &#8220;better capability at a lower cost and it&#8217;s quicker to field&#8221; than an a OH-58 modified to meet the requirements for a future armed scout would be.

The Army is already modifying its OH-58s, giving them improved sensors, cockpit displays and countermeasures, among other tweaks.

At the same time, the service is wrapping up its Analysis of Alternatives for its next generation armed aerial scout helicopter. Burke says the AH-6, with it&#8217;s ability to perform at more the 6,000 feet and in 95 degree temperatures, fly for three hours as well as integrate UAV controls, is already well qualified to do.

Posted by ASIAN DEFENCE

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## mudassar0186

How better would it be if we have Appachie....................our Govt should exploite the US instead of being pressurized.


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## fatman17

the ah-64d is a 'tank-buster' - with its size i am not so sure it wld be successful in the hilly terrain of fata. - for the plains of punjab, yes it wld be a good weapon.


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


>



Every pic is gud but this one is GREAT yaar. .


----------



## hassan1

CAN PA USE CH-47 IN PAST .I SEE A PIX OF CH-47 WITH PA ROUNDAL AND FIN FLAG OF PAKISTAN.


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## fatman17

hassan1 said:


> CAN PA USE CH-47 IN PAST .I SEE A PIX OF CH-47 WITH PA ROUNDAL AND FIN FLAG OF PAKISTAN.



post the pic? i havnt seen it!


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## hassan1

how can i buy the new book on pak army aviation.


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## SQ8

Yet to see this posted..if its a repost.. lemme know..






I dont think the idea was firm orders for this bird..
showing interest maybe..

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## zubi2011

*Pakistan Army Aviation Corps*

The Pakistan Army is the branch of the Pakistani Armed Forces responsible for land-based military operations. It is the largest and oldest established branch of the Pakistani military and is one of three uniformed services. The Pakistan Army came into existence after the Partition of India and the resulting independence of Pakistan in 1947. It is currently headed by General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani. The Pakistan Army is a volunteer professional fighting force. It has an active force of 550,000 personnel. The Pakistani constitution contains a provision for conscription, but it has never been imposed.


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## truthseeker2010

Pakistan Army Eurocopter AS-550U-3 Fennec






This AS-350B is flown by Lt Col. Khalid Amir Rana one of the two pilots who rescued the Slovenian climber Toma&#382; Humar under critical circumstances from Nanga Parbat at a height of 22,300 ft (6,800 m). For this heroes rescue the crew was awarded with the &#8216;Golden Order for Services.&#8217; This is the highest Slovenian award ever conferred upon any foreign national.

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## fatman17

santro said:


> Yet to see this posted..if its a repost.. lemme know..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think the idea was firm orders for this bird..
> showing interest maybe..



its a logical 'step-up' for the PAA. if and when the fata ops end, our armed choppers will need to be replaced very quickly,


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## Jango

truthseeker2010 said:


> Pakistan Army Eurocopter AS-550U-3 Fennec
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This AS-350B is flown by Lt Col. Khalid Amir Rana one of the two pilots who rescued the Slovenian climber Toma&#382; Humar under critical circumstances from Nanga Parbat at a height of 22,300 ft (6,800 m). For this heroes rescue the crew was awarded with the &#8216;Golden Order for Services.&#8217; This is the highest Slovenian award ever conferred upon any foreign national.


 
My family personally knows this guy very well.....a good person to talk with.a BIT HUMUROUS AS WELL.


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## Jango

Can anybody tell me that where the armaments of the AH-1F cobras are stored when the choppers are in hangars.....i lived in multan for two years and cobras are stationed there but never got to know this.....thanks in advance!


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## SEAL

Sorry if posted earlier.

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## Imran Khan

yes posted already many many months . but thanks bro new members can see


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## Jango

The Mi-17 that is lifting the cobra is piloted by Lt Col ansar of 499 stationed in multan. I dont know about the CO right now though. My fathers friend was also there.amazing sight he told .


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## DANGER-ZONE

Pakistan, February 15, 2011 : *Mi 171 operating in Northern Areas, Pakistan*





*Flood relief operation *

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## truthseeker2010

* Army helicopter makes emergency landing*

Thursday, March 10, 2011

ISLAMABAD: A small helicopter of Army Aviation made an emergency landing on Lehtrar Road in the vicinity of the Federal Capital on Thursday, ISPR sources said.

The three-seater "Acquirell" of Army Aviation after flying from aviation's Dhamyal Base Rawalpindi developed some technical fault which forced the pilot to make emergency landing on Lehtrar Road.

All the three personnel on board including Pilot, Co-pilot and a crew member remained unhurt during the landing, ISPR sources added.

Further investigations are on to ascertain the causes behind the incident.







Army helicopter makes emergency landing - GEO.tv

---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 PM ----------

* Army helicopter makes emergency landing*

ISLAMABAD: A small helicopter of Army Aviation made an emergency landing on Lehtrar Road in the vicinity of the Federal Capital on Thursday, ISPR sources said.

The three-seater "Acquirell" of Army Aviation after flying from aviation's Dhamyal Base Rawalpindi developed some technical fault which forced the pilot to make emergency landing on Lehtrar Road.

All the three personnel on board including Pilot, Co-pilot and a crew member remained unhurt during the landing, ISPR sources added.

Further investigations are on to ascertain the causes behind the incident.






Army helicopter makes emergency landing - GEO.tv


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## alimobin memon

why aren't we getting new helicopters ????


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## fatman17

alimobin memon said:


> why aren't we getting new helicopters ????



30 Bell 412 are on order.

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## sanasahil

Wow i didnt pakistan has these helis, writers are saying that pakistan has become better power as for india is concerned and indian can not do any t hing unless america helps.


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## truthseeker2010

Pakistan Army Mi-171 in St. Petersburg (Leningrad).

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## alimobin memon

fatman17 said:


> 30 Bell 412 are on order.


 
wow 30 thanks for the reply 
by the way that mi17 in other post ? are they ordered by paf recently...?

---------- Post added at 10:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 PM ----------




fatman17 said:


> 30 Bell 412 are on order.


 
wow 30 thanks for the reply 
by the way that mi17 in other post ? are they ordered by paf recently...?


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## DANGER-ZONE

Lithuania, April 2, 2011 : *Pakistan - Army Mil Mi-171 Overhauled in Lithuanian helicopter maintenance company*

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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## TOPGUN

What is the total number of Cobra gunships we have in our inventory?


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## Luftwaffe

I think the number is 40, fatman has the exact figure..

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## fatman17

alimobin memon said:


> wow 30 thanks for the reply
> by the way that mi17 in other post ? are they ordered by paf recently...?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> wow 30 thanks for the reply
> by the way that mi17 in other post ? are they ordered by paf recently...?


 
PAF has 6 Mi-17 for SAR


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## alimobin memon

yaar can u tell me abt if ah1 cobra of pakistan army have sensors on the nose ?


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## fatman17

*Bell Helicopter*

AH-1F Cobra

Delivered; 28
Current; 27
Lost; 1

- Note: A total of 40 airframes are due from the US via FMS; 20 are to be used for spares only & are not included in the above totals. Deliveries expected to be concludsd by the end of 2008. On 26th September 2008 the US DSCA notified Congress of the possible sale, refurbishment & maintenance of a further 8 Cobras. An attrition loss occurred on 10th February 2010, due to a technical problem, resulting in 2 fatalities.

AH-1S Cobra

Delivered;36
Current;35
Lost; 1

- Note: All of the airframes are in the process of undergoing upgrades to AH-1F configuration for conformity with newly-delivered former US Army examples arriving in 2007 & 2008. One Cobra is currently stored in a damaged condition following an accident. In March 2010 it emerged that a batch of 16 Cobras has been acquired from the Royal Jordanian AF, with delivery expected imminently. 

AH-1Z Viper

- Note: Future plans released by the US Department of State in December 2009 detail the possible procurement of AH-1Z Viper helicopters from 2015 onwards.


availability of spares to keep the fleet serviceable is a serious problem due to the fleet's heavy use in the WoT

AFI


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## Arsalan

there are no more frequent updats regarding the WZ-10 and the T-129

PA best go for a few more Cobras of these are offered a low bargain. 
in order to add a power punch and diversity, PA must select atleaset 20 T-129 or WZ-10. this can well turn out to be the turning factor


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## fatman17

apparantly the chinese WZ-10 a medium attack helo, is entering PLA service albeit at a slow rate - 8-10 examples. it is capable to fire the HJ-10 (chinese version of the Hellfire AGM). it has a 30mm chain gun.


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## DANGER-ZONE

_February 15, 2011_: *Skardu, Pakistan - Pakista Army Eurocopter AS-550U-3 Fennec.*

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## fatman17

*Beech B300 King Air*

Pakistan Army Aviation Corps
Delivered; 4
Current; 4

- In service from 2006

- Note: The first 2 aircraft were delivered in 2005 & 2006, respectively. In March 2011 a pair of Beech B300 aircraft, previously registered to the USAF Air Force Materiel Command, was transferred to Pakistan. Built in 2000 & 2003, respectively, both aircraft are reportedly configured for ELINT or aerial photography missions comparable to the MC-12W Liberty .

- Located at 13 Army Aviation Squadron


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## fatman17

*Ghazi AAB, Tarbela*
Tarbela Dam

Stationed at this Base
Pakistan Army Aviation Corps

- 21 Army Aviation Squadron

Inventory at this Base
This section lists all Inventory that is logged as being located at Ghazi AAB, Tarbela.

IAR-330SM Puma
- Pakistan Army Aviation Corps : 21 Army Aviation Squadron



Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'
- Pakistan Army Aviation Corps : 21 Army Aviation Squadron



Mi-17-V5 'Hip-H'
- Pakistan Army Aviation Corps : 21 Army Aviation Squadron


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## Blackpearl

Army Aviation Base at Ghazi, Tarbella has two squadrons stationed there, 21 squadron having night capable MI-17 helos and 28 squadron having SA330 puma helos, received from UAE.
21 squadron is also called QRS, (Quick Reaction Squadron), as it has the characteristic to be able to launch MI-17s in any emergency with SSG guys on board. That is why the squadron is placed so close to SSG installations at Tarbella.


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## DANGER-ZONE

_February 15, 2011:_*Pakistan Army Mil Mi-17-1V at Skardu Pakistan*

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## DANGER-ZONE

_April 22, 2011_: *Pakistan Army Bell 412EP at Chaklala (ISB / OPRN) - Islamabad (Rawalpindi) *

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## FC 20

can any one tell me abt the order of 30 bell 412s and wen r we getting them and the total number of MI 17s (all versions)?


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## fatman17

FC 20 said:


> can any one tell me abt the order of 30 bell 412s and wen r we getting them and the total number of MI 17s (all versions)?



check the first few posts for your answer


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## Super Falcon

most of out helicopter are 30 years old systems nothing new technology on them you compare 80 corolla with 2011 corrolla you will se 1000 differences in car and technology which new genaration offers best survivability but our army still wasting money on old yes new are expansive but better not to buy 2 MI 17 and buy one NH 90 is good option because that helo can lead armed forces well in future


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## DANGER-ZONE

_May 11, 2011:_ *Pakistan - Army Mil Mi-17-1V at Skardu (KDU / OPSD), Pakistan.*

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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> most of out helicopter are 30 years old systems nothing new technology on them you compare 80 corolla with 2011 corrolla you will se 1000 differences in car and technology which new genaration offers best survivability but our army still wasting money on old yes new are expansive but better not to buy 2 MI 17 and buy one NH 90 is good option because that helo can lead armed forces well in future



who is going to sell us the NH-90!?

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## Stealth

Fatman

Any information about Pakistan ARmy interested in any attack helicopter ??


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## fatman17

Stealth said:


> Fatman
> 
> Any information about Pakistan ARmy interested in any attack helicopter ??



two options;

1- the AH-1Zulu - may be available by 2014 (if US/Pak relations dont deteriorate anyfurther) to replace the AH-1S/F models.
2- the WZ-10 med. attack helo from china (however in performance it remains inferior to the AH-64 Apache)


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## DANGER-ZONE

_April 12, 2011:_ *Pakistan Army Aviation - Agusta-Westland AW-139*

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## Stealth

fatman17 said:


> two options;
> 
> 1- the AH-1Zulu - may be available by 2014 (if US/Pak relations dont deteriorate anyfurther) to replace the AH-1S/F models.
> 2- the WZ-10 med. attack helo from china (however in performance it remains inferior to the AH-64 Apache)



WZ-10 comparable with ? 

or any other helicopter who is comparable to near to Apache ?


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## fatman17

Stealth said:


> WZ-10 comparable with ?
> 
> or any other helicopter who is comparable to near to Apache ?



WZ-10 = Rooivalk = Mangusta


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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> WZ-10 = Rooivalk = Mangusta


 
Sir why not to go for Russian Stuff Mi-28, KA-50/52. Russian Mi-28 is an ugly helo for sure, but it is quite comparable to Apache and Ka-50/52 are superior to Apache and unit cost is less. if Indian going for Apache then we should go for Russian.


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## fatman17

danger-zone said:


> Sir why not to go for Russian Stuff Mi-28, KA-50/52. Russian Mi-28 is an ugly helo for sure, but it is quite comparable to Apache and Ka-50/52 are superior to Apache and unit cost is less. if Indian going for Apache then we should go for Russian.



Russia will not sell to us.


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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> Russia will not sell to us.


 
Sir, PA has acquired new Mi-8/17 from Russia also getting Rd-93 via China. Don't you think we should request them to open Arm sale to Pakistan. it is a golden chance, India seems nowhere near to these attack choppers. A deal for an Advance payment will always be welcomed for 20-30 Choppers. PA must have that much amount reserved for crucial time. 
Sir just look at this thing


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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> two options;
> 
> 1- the AH-1Zulu - may be available by 2014 (if US/Pak relations dont deteriorate anyfurther) to replace the AH-1S/F models.
> 2- the WZ-10 med. attack helo from china (however in performance it remains inferior to the AH-64 Apache)


 
U forgot the T-129 ATAK frm Turkiye.


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## Dr. Strangelove

danger-zone said:


> Sir, PA has acquired new Mi-8/17 from Russia also getting Rd-93 via China. Don't you think we should request them to open Arm sale to Pakistan. it is a golden chance, India seems nowhere near to these attack choppers. A deal for an Advance payment will always be welcomed for 20-30 Choppers. PA must have that much amount reserved for crucial time.
> Sir just look at this thing


 wat its name and with which chopers it s copareable


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## Rafi

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> U forgot the T-129 ATAK frm Turkiye.


 
With Turkey getting comprehensive ToT, it is a much better option.


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## fatman17

danger-zone said:


> Sir, PA has acquired new Mi-8/17 from Russia also getting Rd-93 via China. Don't you think we should request them to open Arm sale to Pakistan. it is a golden chance, India seems nowhere near to these attack choppers. A deal for an Advance payment will always be welcomed for 20-30 Choppers. PA must have that much amount reserved for crucial time.
> Sir just look at this thing



PAA officers have visited Russia to check out the russian helo's but were politely refused.


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## fatman17

Pakistan Army Aviation Corps
Mi-17-1V

Delivered; 38
Current; 34
Lost; 4

- Note: As many as 32 Mi-17-1V models are reported to have been acquired in a large batch delivered between 2002 & 2008. A further 6 Mi-17 (Mi-8MTV-1) helicopters have been leased from the US Department of Defense for use in ongoing anti-Taliban operations in the Swat Valley, having been delivered in late June 2009. It is believed that at least 5 of these helicopters were then passed-on to Afghanistan as "spares sources" for the ANAAF's flyable Hip fleet. A batch of 12 Mi-17s was overhauled & refurbished with US funding in 2009, with another 12 to follow suit in 2010 & the remaining 10 at a later date. The most recent attrition losses have been on 5th August 2004 & 3rd July 2009, the latter resulting in 26 fatalities. Another loss occurred on 24th October 2009, during fighting in the Bajaur tribal region, causing 3 fatalities aboard the helicopter.

- Located at 21 Army Aviation Squadron, 25 Army Aviation Squadron, 27 Army Aviation Squadron, 4 Army Aviation Squadron, 5 Army Aviation Squadron, Detachment, Detachment, Detachment, Inter-Service Intelligence Department

AFI


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## Manticore

very good picyures here!

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## Manticore



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## Jango

excellent pics antibody, but which is the base in the first tow or three pics?, i have a really big interest in PAA considering my father was in this corps too!


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## Manticore

some guy on flicker uploaded them , sir fatman will know more about the bases

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## Manticore



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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


>


 
and the cobra awaits for it's venom to be filled in it's compartments!,A SORRY TRY AT HUMOR!!!


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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


>



THE OLD AND THE NEW Mi 17 SITTING SIDE BY SIDE, THE NEW ON THE FRONT.

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## Manticore



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## Manticore

i think it was posted by stealth , but cant find it here


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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


>



this could be bahawalpur maybe???, that is where the cobras are, this is definitely not multan, sir fatman???

and by the way, excellent job i must say sir antibody, thank you very much.

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## Jango

the ecueril doesnt have that feeling of beautiness and oomphness that a Bell 412 or cobra or Mi-17 has, i am sure you people might agree??


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## Manticore



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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


> i think it was posted by stealth , but cant find it here


 
what is that thing in front of the engine intakes??, air filter for the sand? but it isnt present in the older versions of this heli, only new types have it, the engine intakes are also a bit different of the two.


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## nomi007

we need Chinooks ch-47d &Sikorsky CH-53 Sea Stallions
last year during flood and in 2005 earth quick they perform excellent
we try to built our own attack helicopter like India with the help of turkey
try to get mi-28 if India will not purchase Russian helicopter


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## Manticore

hassan1 said:


> PAF ALOUT III
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF H-19D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF H-43B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF MI-6


 
great thread - http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/7733-military-helicopters-pak-use-3.html

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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


>



aah, the puma, ......................the UH-1H belongs to 404 group right?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

nuclearpak said:


> this could be bahawalpur maybe???, that is where the cobras are, this is definitely not multan, sir fatman???
> 
> and by the way, excellent job i must say sir antibody, thank you very much.


 

No its multan... Cobras are stationed at the multan airbase....... its near the firing ranges........ I have seen the base........ infact my father is posted in multan as of right now...


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## Jango

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> No its multan... Cobras are stationed at the multan airbase....... its near the firing ranges........ I have seen the base........ infact my father is posted in multan as of right now...


 
my father was CO of 599 a couple of years back, the multan airport and aviation base use the same strip for operations, and this is not that one, but this could be one of the firing ranges


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## Last Hope

Assalam u Alaikum.

I have got a few questions arised by the T-129 ATAK from Turkeye like Pakistani Nationalist mentioned.

*
When is the delivery due?
What missile would they carry?
Amount of missiles ordered?
Anti-Tank missiles?
*
fatman17, sir it would be an honor to hear about it.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

nuclearpak said:


> my father was CO of 599 a couple of years back, the multan airport and aviation base use the same strip for operations, and this is not that one, but this could be one of the firing ranges


 
The ranges are near the base like 1-2 Kms away frm multan airport n the base which faces this part...... and the cobras are stationed in multan which is a fact.



Last Hope said:


> Assalam u Alaikum.
> 
> I have got a few questions arised by the T-129 ATAK from Turkeye like Pakistani Nationalist mentioned.
> 
> *
> When is the delivery due?
> What missile would they carry?
> Amount of missiles ordered?
> Anti-Tank missiles?
> *
> fatman17, sir it would be an honor to hear about it.


 
Bro ATAK is still not ready n under development...... its probably in long term.. n yes i remember the PM talking abt a "laraka helicopter" during his visit to Turkey on PTV...

It would carry missiles like UTMAS etc n probably "tank busters" ,TOW1-2 etc.


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## Desert Fox

Last Hope said:


> Assalam u Alaikum.
> 
> I have got a few questions arised by the T-129 ATAK from Turkeye like Pakistani Nationalist mentioned.
> 
> *
> When is the delivery due?
> What missile would they carry?
> Amount of missiles ordered?
> Anti-Tank missiles?
> *
> fatman17, sir it would be an honor to hear about it.


 
i didn't know Pakistan Army ordered T-129 ATAK Helis from Turkey, is there a source to confirm this??

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## DESERT FIGHTER

SilentNinja said:


> i didn't know Pakistan Army ordered T-129 ATAK Helis from Turkey, is there a source to confirm this??


 
Heard the PM yap about it on national TV.. PTV during his visit to Turkey....... talking abt "mushtarak tayari of a laraka helicopter with turkey".

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## Last Hope

SilentNinja said:


> i didn't know Pakistan Army ordered T-129 ATAK Helis from Turkey, is there a source to confirm this??





Aeronaut said:


> *TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says Pakistan and Jordan are already Evaluating T-129 ATAK. *
> 
> News source:
> 
> DATE:01/10/09
> SOURCE:Flight International
> ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success
> By Luca Peruzzi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Programme officials from the ATAK development team have provided further details of Turkey's T129 attack helicopter programme, as its first prototype has completed its debut flight.
> 
> Conducted at AgustaWestland's Vergiate facility in Italy on 28 September, the milestone event involved aircraft P1, the first of five prototypes to be produced under the Turkish Aerospace Industries-led programme.
> 
> Powered by LHTEC T800A-4 engines, the aircraft is one of three T129s to be built in a basic configuration, with the others to enter final assembly at Vergiate in March and July 2010, respectively.
> 
> Kits for the programme's two so-called Turkey Unique Configuration prototypes will be delivered to TAI in April and August 2010. These production-standard airframes will undergo assembly, integration, test and trials in Turkey.
> 
> Critical design reviews for both aircraft versions will be concluded in the second quarter of next year, and all five prototypes should fly by mid-2011. "The joint programme is on time, cost and scheduled programme achievements," says AgustaWestland chief executive Giuseppe Orsi.
> 
> Turkey has ordered 50 production T129s and has options on another 41. The aircraft will be equipped with Turkish-made systems including electronics, forward-looking infrared sensor, cockpit avionics and mission computer from Aselsan, and weapon systems from Roketsan.
> 
> *TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says the first T129 ATAK will be handed over to the Turkish armed forces in the third quarter of 2013. Turkey will be responsible for international marketing and sales of the design, and industry sources say several countries are already evaluating the product, including Jordan and Pakistan.*
> 
> Source link:ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success
> Turkey Presses Ahead with its Attack Helicopter Project - The Jamestown Foundation
> 
> " The helicopter program is seen as one of the flagship projects for Turkey's flourishing defense industry, as it will involve not only the transfer of advanced technology, but also the integration of various domestically developed weapons and communications systems. Moreover, since Turkey's TAI will have the exclusive rights to market and sell the final product worldwide, the project is particularly attractive for Turkey. Through this and other ambitious national weapons programs, it aims to emerge as a major player in the global arms industry. *Pakistan, Malaysia, the United Arab Emirates and Jordan have reportedly expressed their interest in purchasing the T-129 (Anadolu Ajansi, September 25)*. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *My photoshop Image for you guys depicting our Next generation Attack Helicopter Inshallah in Pakistan colors and this Image is dedicated to my Turkish Brother Cabatli 53 for his Great help and dedication.*


 
Taken from Aeronaut.

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## fatman17

Last Hope said:


> Assalam u Alaikum.
> 
> I have got a few questions arised by the T-129 ATAK from Turkeye like Pakistani Nationalist mentioned.
> 
> *
> When is the delivery due?
> What missile would they carry?
> Amount of missiles ordered?
> Anti-Tank missiles?
> *
> fatman17, sir it would be an honor to hear about it.



there is no news/interest by PA as of now.

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## Jango

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The ranges are near the base like 1-2 Kms away frm multan airport n the base which faces this part...... and the cobras are stationed in multan which is a fact.
> 
> 
> 
> Bro ATAK is still not ready n under development...... its probably in long term.. n yes i remember the PM talking abt a "laraka helicopter" during his visit to Turkey on PTV...
> 
> It would carry missiles like UTMAS etc n probably "tank busters" ,TOW1-2 etc.



i know the cobras are in multan, 499 EME does their maintenance in the last hangar!, but i think that this is the range near the multan aviation base but the ranges that are towards fort colony are only for infantry purposes i think, is there any other range other than this??


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## Jango

can somebody anwer my question from post 193, will be much appreciated.


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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> aah, the puma, ......................the UH-1H belongs to 404 group right?



The 2 UH-1Hs shown in the pics are actually UH-1H Huey II. The difference between the Huey and Huey II, is that Huey II is fitted with AH-1F Cobra's engine, i.e. T-53 L-703 (1800 HP), while older Hueys/UH-1D/H are fitted with T-53 L-13 (1400 HP) engines. Another very conspicuous difference is that, in Hueys, tail rotor is mounted on left side of the tail, while in Huey II, tail rotor is mounted on right side. Once Huey IIs are fitted with an uprated engine, therefore their complete drive mechanism is replaced. Main rotors, transmission, drive shaft of original UH-1H are removed and all parts of Bell 212 are installed in Huey II. even the tail boom of Bell 212 is installed on UH-1H. so this convert the UH-1H into UH-1H Huey II. Allup weight is increased from 9,000 lbs to 10,500 lbs.

The pics of 2 UH-1H Huey IIs are not from Army aviation, but belong to 50th squadron of Ministry of Interior. See, no army aviation helo, carry govt of Pakistan sign, but ministry of Interior helos carry, govt of Pakistan sign (you may see them on the doors).
I think helo 31 is photographed in USA, before being shipped to Pakistan.

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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> can somebody anwer my question from post 193, will be much appreciated.


 
You are right, there is some kind of improved air intake filters installed infront of engines. They may be MI-172s.


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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> The 2 UH-1Hs shown in the pics are actually UH-1H Huey II. The difference between the Huey and Huey II, is that Huey II is fitted with AH-1F Cobra's engine, i.e. T-53 L-703 (1800 HP), while older Hueys/UH-1D/H are fitted with T-53 L-13 (1400 HP) engines. Another very conspicuous difference is that, in Hueys, tail rotor is mounted on left side of the tail, while in Huey II, tail rotor is mounted on right side. Once Huey IIs are fitted with an uprated engine, therefore their complete drive mechanism is replaced. Main rotors, transmission, drive shaft of original UH-1H are removed and all parts of Bell 212 are installed in Huey II. even the tail boom of Bell 212 is installed on UH-1H. so this convert the UH-1H into UH-1H Huey II. Allup weight is increased from 9,000 lbs to 10,500 lbs.
> 
> The pics of 2 UH-1H Huey IIs are not from Army aviation, but belong to 50th squadron of Ministry of Interior. See, no army aviation helo, carry govt of Pakistan sign, but ministry of Interior helos carry, govt of Pakistan sign (you may see them on the doors).
> I think helo 31 is photographed in USA, before being shipped to Pakistan.


 
isnt the UH-1H belonging to 7 squadron which is in islamabad and intended for VIP use, the helos are stated as of the ministry of interior, but they are maintained and flown by army aviation personnel, i had an oppurtunity to fly in one as well, that one was of the prime minister of pakistan. Very comfortable ride unlike the other helos, with the cushions and all!.


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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> You are right, there is some kind of improved air intake filters installed infront of engines. They may be MI-172s.


 
i think these are most probably installed a safety precaution becasue of the sandy terrain.


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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> isnt the UH-1H belonging to 7 squadron which is in islamabad and intended for VIP use, the helos are stated as of the ministry of interior, but they are maintained and flown by army aviation personnel, i had an oppurtunity to fly in one as well, that one was of the prime minister of pakistan. Very comfortable ride unlike the other helos, with the cushions and all!.


 This is 6th squadron of Cabinet division, not 7 squadron. The officers and maintenance crew is posted from Army on secondment with Cabinet division. 6 squadron opertaes UH-1H models (with tail rotor on the left). 50th squadron operates Huey IIs (tail rotor on the right)


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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> This is 6th squadron of Cabinet division, not 7 squadron. The officers and maintenance crew is posted from Army on secondment with Cabinet division. 6 squadron opertaes UH-1H models (with tail rotor on the left). 50th squadron operates Huey IIs (tail rotor on the right)


 
yup, 6th squadron. My bad. I am not really that much into these hueys. They look bad as well. You are very well informed i must say.


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## Jango

The UH 1H also has it's pitot tube on the roof instead of nose right?


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## Jango

pusher tail rotors were found to be more effectivee and were hence placed in the later modelsas you said which are being operated by 50 sqd i.e huey with tail rotor on the left. The tractor type rotor on the right side was the norm back then in the days of the production of UH-1H and as you said being operated by 6 sqd. So in nutshell the 6 sqd has older hueys than 50 sqd and hence 6 sqd has huey with tail rotor on right side and 50 sqd with with rotor on left side i.e pusher type.....i always gget confused by the pusher and tractor combination that which one is right side and which left?....hope the above stated is correct.!


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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> pusher tail rotors were found to be more effectivee and were hence placed in the later modelsas you said which are being operated by 50 sqd i.e huey with tail rotor on the left. The tractor type rotor on the right side was the norm back then in the days of the production of UH-1H and as you said being operated by 6 sqd. So in nutshell the 6 sqd has older hueys than 50 sqd and hence 6 sqd has huey with tail rotor on right side and 50 sqd with with rotor on left side i.e pusher type.....i always gget confused by the pusher and tractor combination that which one is right side and which left?....hope the above stated is correct.!


 Gothrough it
tailrotors.html

Huey II T/R on right
UH-1H T/R on left


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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> Gothrough it
> tailrotors.html
> 
> Huey II T/R on right
> UH-1H T/R on left


 
thanks for the link, it was as i stated, and the last two lines of your post summed it all up.


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## nomi007

hey every 1 look at this helicopter
which is not Chinook but built before the chinook in 1955 by Russian this is
Yakovlev Yak-24


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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> You are right, there is some kind of improved air intake filters installed infront of engines. They may be MI-172s.


 
These are ' centricip' (centrifugal) sand filters on the engine intakes. These are a number smal vortex tubes which swirl the air , they heavy dust particles go to the edhes and the clean air remians in the centre. The sand and dust from the outer edges is picked up and blown away and the clean air goes to the engine. MI-17 previosuly had old russian filters which were heavy and had a high power penalty (about 300 kgs in T/o wt)

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## Manticore

^guys , you might find my thread helicopter designs thread in military multimedia section , interesting



Pakistanis crowd around a Pakistan military helicopter during a drop of much needed food supplies to the flood encircled village of Tul in Sindh Province, southern Pakistan, Friday, August 20, 2010.


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## Manticore

These soldiers are taking hot tea for helicopter crew at helipad.

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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


> ^guys , you might find my thread helicopter designs thread in military multimedia section , interesting
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis crowd around a Pakistan military helicopter during a drop of much needed food supplies to the flood encircled village of Tul in Sindh Province, southern Pakistan, Friday, August 20, 2010.


 
this is PAF heli, look on the tail. But they have camo like army aviation, any particular reason for this.

---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------

what is your source for these pics antibody, a good friend from within or just public media photos collected over time?


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## Manticore

nuclearpak said:


> this is PAF heli, look on the tail. But they have camo like army aviation, any particular reason for this.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------
> 
> what is your source for these pics antibody, a good friend from within or just public media photos collected over time?


 last 2 pics from militaryphotos.net Pakistan-Army

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## Manticore




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## Manticore

http://aasqk.yolasite.com/bell-uh-1u.php

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## Manticore

http://aasqk.yolasite.com/agusta-westland-aw-139.php


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## Manticore

http://aasqk.yolasite.com/aerospatiale-puma.php

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## Manticore

http://aasqk.yolasite.com/bell-206-jet-ranger.php








http://aasqk.yolasite.com/bell-helicopters.php

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## Manticore

http://aasqk.yolasite.com/eurocopter-fennec.php

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## Manticore

HARBIN Y-12





ROCKWELL COMMANDER 690C JET PROP 840 





AUSTER AIRCRAFT LIMITED AOP-6 AUSTER

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## Manticore

http://aasqk.yolasite.com/bell-cobra.php

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## Manticore

http://aasqk.yolasite.com/mi-17.php

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## Manticore

http://aasqk.yolasite.com/mi-8.php

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## fatman17

AB nice job!

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## fatman17

*Baktar Shikan*

"The Chinese TOW in turn was renamed by Pakistan as the Baktar Shikan, as it is also manufactured under license by the country. Like the other missiles, Baktar Shikan can also be mounted on Pakistan&#8217;s Cobra attack helicopters and probably attack aircraft. At a distance of 3km, Baktar Shikan ATGM can destroy all currently known tank targets with 90% hit and penetration probability. With its long range, penetration power and a powerful anti-jamming capability, Baktar Shikan forms a potent defence against armoured targets."

13,000 produced to date!

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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


> http://aasqk.yolasite.com/mi-17.php


 the first Mi-17 lifting the cobra is piloted by Lt Col ansar i believe, not a pilot but of EME , he was involved in the recovery of this cobra.


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## Manticore

sir fatman , i didnt want to spam or repost some pictures , so i gave the link -- the links have 80% more pics than i posted here!


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## Jango

multan aviation base, behind are the orange trees.


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## Jango

why is there a parachute behind the cobra?


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## Abingdonboy

nuclearpak said:


> why is there a parachute behind the cobra?


 I imagine it is to stabilise the cobra during its flight under the Mi17. 


+ any info behind the pic? What happened to the cobra?


Cool pic though- didn't think a Mi-17 could lift a Cobra, I guess you learn somthing new everyday!!


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## Abingdonboy

It's rather interesting the commanlity there is between Pakistani Aviation (helo) assets and Indian aviation assets (Not so much in the future but still). Mi-17, SeaKing, Alouette III etc. For so called "enemies" they like the same toys!


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## S-A-B-E-R->

ANTIBODY said:


>


 
any one remember the pic of black hawks in the same formation befor desert storm it was cool


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## Jango

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> any one remember the pic of black hawks in the same formation befor desert storm it was cool


 
yup, this is a very patriotic kind of pic.

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## Jango

Abingdonboy said:


> I imagine it is to stabilise the cobra during its flight under the Mi17.
> 
> 
> + any info behind the pic? What happened to the cobra?
> 
> 
> Cool pic though- didn't think a Mi-17 could lift a Cobra, I guess you learn somthing new everyday!!


 
the cobra was hit by bullets about 2-3 years back by militants, hence it needed to be airlifted, the parachute is called drogue to keep the cobra in a straight line during flight, it was airlifted from swat to risalpur, then on a C-130 from risalpur to multan.


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## fatman17

_as 'spares' for the cobra fleet dry up......
......a short-term replacement below_


*Z-9W/WA/WE/WZ Daulphin * 


Z-9W is the first indigenous anti-armor attack helicopter devrived from the license-built AS-365N. Its main armament are four KD-8 wire-guided ATGMs (range 600-3,000m, armor penetration >800mm). Besides anti-tank missiles, it can carry also two 57mm/90mm rocket pods, or two 12.7mm machine gun pods, or two 23mm cannons, or four TY-90 IR-guided AAMs. The helicopter wears a combat camouflage but is lightly armored. It also lacks effective counter-measures against IR and laser guided SAMs. However one prototype has been fitted with an IRCM system (similar to American AN/ALQ-144) behind the main rotor. A roof-mounted optical sight provides the means for searching and tracking in daylight. Its maximum take-off weight is 4,100kg, maximum speed 315km, maximum range 664km and ceiling 4,220m. The first prototype of Z-9W flew in 1989 and dozens have been produced (S/N LH959xx, 969xx, 979xx, 989xx, 999xx). Some Z-9Ws feature redesigned engine intakes with improved dust filters. An further improved night-attack version dubbed Z-9WA similar to AS 565CA Panther was developed in 2000 featuring more powerful engines and a new stub wing which can carry up to 8 KD-8 or KD-10 ATGMs, PL-90 or even FN-6 AAMs. Its nose is redesigned to carry a low-light TV/IRST turret (YY-1?) for night missions, with RWR antennas installed on both sides. A mast-mounted sight (or an MMW radar) prototype was also developed. Z-9WA has a better armor protection in the cockpit area, a flare launcher, datalink and a redesigned NVG compatible cockpit. An air data sensor is installed on the starborad side of the cabin. A large datalink antenna is installed underneath the boom. Z-9WAs have been entering service with the Army Aviation (S/N LH919xx, 929xx, 939xx, 949xx, 959xx, 969XX, 979XX, 989xx, 999xx, 9109xx) since early 2005 as a stop-gap measure until Z-10/Z-19 (see below) enters the service. A recon version (Z-9WZ) was also developed and it first flew on December 29, 2004. This variant carries light machine guns instead of the heavier ATGMs. PLAAF also took delivery of a few Z-9WZs in 2007 (S/N 609x, 619x, 60x2x). Some of them are equipped with loudspeakers and a search light for SAR purpose. A similar variant (Z-9ZH) is also in service with the PLAAF unit stationed in Hong Kong (S/N 620x). It was reported that two Z-9WEs were delivered to Kenya in 2010, marking the first export success of this helicopter. 
- Last Updated 7/11/11


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## SQ8

Why not just go straight for the Z-10??
Why wait for an interim.. use up the Ah-1's in the WoT.. cannibalize or whatever.
Go brand new for the main req in the east.


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## TaimiKhan

Santro said:


> Why not just go straight for the Z-10??
> Why wait for an interim.. use up the Ah-1's in the WoT.. cannibalize or whatever.
> Go brand new for the main req in the east.


 
Z-9s are a good option. They would be cheap with hopefully cheap spare parts chain as well as a very good chance of making critical spare parts in house with the help of infrastructure development from Chinese. 

Z-9s can be used by the Navy, Air Force as well as the Army. 

The attack version of the Z-9 can become a transport version too whenever required, so in current situation it will have 2 uses for us. When you need for transport, just strip the weapons and when need for attack get the weapons back on. 

Navy has already started to use them, Air Force can order them too as well as the Army. Its a versatile platform. 

And we can order separate Z-10s as a dedicated platform. 

Z-9s can be used as attack version in case of emergency.

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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> Z-9s are a good option. They would be cheap with hopefully cheap spare parts chain as well as a very good chance of making critical spare parts in house with the help of infrastructure development from Chinese.
> 
> Z-9s can be used by the Navy, Air Force as well as the Army.
> 
> The attack version of the Z-9 can become a transport version too whenever required, so in current situation it will have 2 uses for us. When you need for transport, just strip the weapons and when need for attack get the weapons back on.
> 
> Navy has already started to use them, Air Force can order them too as well as the Army. Its a versatile platform.
> 
> *And we can order separate Z-10s as a dedicated platform*.
> 
> Z-9s can be used as attack version in case of emergency.



sure, when the engine issues are resolved!


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## SQ8

Commonality with the Navy is a good incentive.. however, only the operational performance of the Z-9 with the Navy will give us the actual idea.
A Z-9's combat load is what matters... if it can still carry say around eight or ten ATGM's.. and its own reload ammo in the cabin along with two mech's/gunners.
its actually a very effective platform.


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## fatman17

Santro said:


> Commonality with the Navy is a good incentive.. however, only the operational performance of the Z-9 with the Navy will give us the actual idea.
> A Z-9's combat load is what matters... if it can still carry say around eight or ten ATGM's.. and its own reload ammo in the cabin along with two mech's/gunners.
> its actually a very effective platform.



from the data, it seems quite versatile. 6 Z9ec's are in the ASW role with 6 on order (not confirmed) - CAS, SAR, light-lift are some of the other roles it can perform besides the anti-armour role.


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## Areesh

By the way here is a thread about Z-19. A variant of Z-9 used as light attack helicopter. 

 Z-19 Light Attack Helicopter unveiled?

While PN is using Z-9ec PA can go for this variant.


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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## fatman17

ANTIBODY said:


>



notice the direlict Mi-9 forward of the Mi-17!

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> notice the direlict Mi-9 forward of the Mi-17!


 
It is Mi-8 i believe.

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## Blackpearl

ANTIBODY said:


>



I think, the helo in forefront is MI-14. Pakistan is offered about a dozen MI-14 (naval version of MI-17) from UAE. They are being refurbished in some russian bloc country and will be handed over to Navy.
Note the rear landing gears consist of double wheels instead of single wheel. also the size of side fuel tank, they are small.

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## Imran Khan

UAE dose not has mi-14 as i know they offer is super puma and puma that already upgraded and in service .these are mi-14 ex Ukrainian which are being upgrade in Ukraine .

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## Imran Khan




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## asad71

Isn't all AA assets of PA grouped under a GOC (Maj Gen)?


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## Manticore




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## Dr. Strangelove

ANTIBODY said:


>


 
pakistan air force

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> It is Mi-8 i believe.



i stand corrected


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## fatman17

wasm95 said:


> pakistan air force



4 were purchased for SAR duties with the PAF. notice the extra fuel tanks


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## fatman17

asad71 said:


> Isn't all AA assets of PA grouped under a GOC (Maj Gen)?



correct!!!!!!

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## fatman17

Blackpearl said:


> I think, the helo in forefront is MI-14. Pakistan is offered about a dozen MI-14 (naval version of MI-17) from UAE. They are being refurbished in some russian bloc country and will be handed over to Navy.
> Note the rear landing gears consist of double wheels instead of single wheel. also the size of side fuel tank, they are small.



Mi-14PG for fire-fighting. 2 have been purchased and most likely to be part of the 6 Sqdn which has the AW-139 as part of SAR during national disasters


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## Dr. Strangelove

fatman17 said:


> Mi-14PG for fire-fighting. 2 have been purchased and most likely to be part of the 6 Sqdn which has the AW-139 as part of SAR during national disasters


 thanks but can u tell me currunt number of mi 17s we have


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## Jango

wasm95 said:


> thanks but can u tell me currunt number of mi 17s we have


 
approximately 80, will get a more accurate number later.


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## Manticore

---------- Post added at 03:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:43 PM ----------

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## Manticore

---------- Post added at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:43 PM ----------










---------- Post added at 03:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 PM ----------

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## Imran Khan

very nice dear i am so happy that our city multan is home of cobras .damn when i land there i first of look at multan air port was a cobra flying from multan .


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## Manticore



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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> very nice dear i am so happy that our city multan is home of cobras .damn when i land there i first of look at multan air port was a cobra flying from multan .



Yup, the airport and AVN base share the same runway, so it was a very good sight. Used to climb up top of the base commanders office and watch the A310's land, and also the Cobras and Pumas take to the sky.


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## Manticore

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 PM ----------










---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------

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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


> ---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------


 
Is that Multan AVN base in the second pic, because the only place where you can find a Puma and UH-1H together in the same hangar in maintenance is IMO Multan AVN base.


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## Fieldmarshal

nuclearpak said:


> Is that Multan AVN base in the second pic, because the only place where you can find a Puma and UH-1H together in the same hangar in maintenance is IMO Multan AVN base.



Qasim AVN base Rwalapindi


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## Jango

these are the first pic of newly acquired Puma helicopters. These helicopters are fitted with advanced and more powerful Makila engines which are also used on Super Puma series. These also have improved avionics, glass cockpit and digital four axes autopilot. Externally it has a wire mesh intake barriers, wire cutters and few are fitted with sponson fuel tanks for extended range. IMO the most beautiful helicopter.

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## Dr. Strangelove

nuclearpak said:


> these are the first pic of newly acquired Puma helicopters. These helicopters are fitted with advanced and more powerful Makila engines which are also used on Super Puma series. These also have improved avionics, glass cockpit and digital four axes autopilot. Externally it has a wire mesh intake barriers, wire cutters and few are fitted with sponson fuel tanks for extended range. IMO the most beautiful helicopter.


how many these beauties we have??????


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## Imran Khan

these are not new but upgraded pumas from UAE air force . i think they give 10 to lebnon and 10 to pakistan .as per news 7 delivered to lebnon till now .


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> these are not new but upgraded pumas from UAE air force . i think they give 10 to lebnon and 10 to pakistan .as per news 7 delivered to lebnon till now .



They are not newly made, but newly acquired by PAA. But now it has been some months. You are correct,they are from UAE ( Abu Dhabi Army aviation). 14 is the reported figure. Will give the exact number later after asking somebody i know.

They are AS330 S i think, new makila engines, advanced auto pilot, avionics, and glass cockpit.


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## Imran Khan

lets see what is exact number dear but 7 are confirmed transferd to lebnon .some sources said UAE have 35 of them and some said 20 so its still unknown numbers but 14 is respected number for me .its good new addition in PAA.


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## Jango

Well, whatever the number, it is around the 12-14 range. Good addition to PAA. Advanced avionics, improved engine, better performance and improved cockpit.

---------- Post added at 09:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------

another feature is the really cool color scheme, dark green, really looks like a very good machine.


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Is that Multan AVN base in the second pic, because the only place where you can find a Puma and UH-1H together in the same hangar in maintenance is IMO Multan AVN base.



NO this is not multan AAB. check the background 'hills'. no hills in multan - flat lands!


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## fatman17

PAA originally ordered upto 35 Pumas from France. there have been at least 3-4 known attrition cases. these 7 pumas 'donated' by abu dhabi were going to be used for 'spares' but then were 'upgraded' and put into service with the PAA. this was reported in this thread a few months back.


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## Stealth

FATMAN

Any news pakistan will buy Cobra's Bell 412 or any other helicopter in large no this year or next year ?


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> PAA originally ordered upto 35 Pumas from France. there have been at least 3-4 known attrition cases. these 7 pumas 'donated' by abu dhabi were going to be used for 'spares' but then were 'upgraded' and put into service with the PAA. this was reported in this thread a few months back.



But the original ordered pumas were not AS330 S, rather they were other types like B, H and others, these are the first S types in PAA as far as i know. Please confirm Fatman 17.

BTW, the color scheme is really nice


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## Jango

Stealth said:


> FATMAN
> 
> Any news pakistan will buy Cobra's Bell 412 or any other helicopter in large no this year or next year ?



There was an order for Bell 412's some years back , i myself saw the new ones in Multan AAB years back. Cobras are currently on hold, no new plans as far as i know. Maybe Fatman can expand. There were also reports that once the AH-1Z zulu would be available for export, Pakistan would go for them in all likelihood, but now in the current state of relations, it looks unlikely, T-129 and WZ-10 would be a better option.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> NO this is not multan AAB. check the background 'hills'. no hills in multan - flat lands!



I meant the second picture, from inside the hangar, you are referring to the first pic.


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## Jango

Cabinet Division AW139, bought at 11.5 milion $ a piece. Stationed with 6 aviation squadron(ERC), at islamabad helipad adjacent to sports complex. These helis are maintained and flown by army aviation personnel.


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## Jango

nuclearpak said:


> these are the first pic of newly acquired Puma helicopters. These helicopters are fitted with advanced and more powerful Makila engines which are also used on Super Puma series. These also have improved avionics, glass cockpit and digital four axes autopilot. Externally it has a wire mesh intake barriers, wire cutters and few are fitted with sponson fuel tanks for extended range. IMO the most beautiful helicopter.


 
This is one of the newly acquired refurbished Puma helicopters from UAE. This is an improved version of the existing 330 L puma helicopters operated by pakistan army. These have glass cockpit, imroved 4 axis autopilot and more powerful Makila engines.

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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> This is one of the newly acquired refurbished Puma helicopters from UAE. This is an improved version of the existing 330 L puma helicopters operated by pakistan army. These have glass cockpit, imroved 4 axis autopilot and more powerful Makila engines.



There are 14 such helos, as far as i know, and they are housed at Tarbella Ghazi aviation base. The squadron is newly raised and called 28 squadron. Now Ghazi base has 2 squadrons, 21 QRS (Quick Reaction Squadron) and 28 Cargo squadron. 
Any news, when first of MI-14s are arriving Pakistan .


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Cabinet Division AW139, bought at 11.5 milion $ a piece. Stationed with 6 aviation squadron(ERC), at islamabad helipad adjacent to sports complex. These helis are maintained and flown by army aviation personnel.



one AW139 is in VIP config while the 3 other are configured for SAR activities esp during natural disasters


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> one AW139 is in VIP config while the 3 other are configured for SAR activities esp during natural disasters



2 are configured for VVIP duties as far as i know. 3 are for SAR as you mentioned.


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> There was an order for Bell 412's some years back , i myself saw the new ones in Multan AAB years back. Cobras are currently on hold, no new plans as far as i know. Maybe Fatman can expand. There were also reports that once the AH-1Z zulu would be available for export, Pakistan would go for them in all likelihood, but now in the current state of relations, it looks unlikely, T-129 and WZ-10 would be a better option.



30 Bell 412 are on order cleared by DSCA and US congress. Cobra's is another story. US 500m was earmarked for 12-14 AH-1Z's under CTSF but now it may be difficult.


----------



## Jango

fatman17 said:


> *30 Bell 412 are on order cleared by DSCA and US congress*. Cobra's is another story. US 500m was earmarked for 12-14 AH-1Z's under CTSF but now it may be difficult.



Are any been delivered yet?

---------- Post added at 06:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 PM ----------

are the 412's EP or HP?


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## Dr. Strangelove

Blackpearl said:


> There are 14 such helos, as far as i know, and they are housed at Tarbella Ghazi aviation base. The squadron is newly raised and called 28 squadron. Now Ghazi base has 2 squadrons, 21 QRS (Quick Reaction Squadron) and 28 Cargo squadron.
> Any news, *when first of MI-14s are arriving Pakistan* .


well i was not aware of it by the way how many of these we have ordered


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## Jango

Mi-14 are going to be primarily used as a firefighting tool. Around ten is what i have heard. They are going to be brought from Ukraine.


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> Mi-14 are going to be primarily used as a firefighting tool. Around ten is what i have heard. They are going to be brought from Ukraine.



sir jee Ukraine him self don't have 10 from where they will provide us 10 MI-14?

---------- Post added at 08:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------




nuclearpak said:


> Are any been delivered yet?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 PM ----------
> 
> are the 412's EP or HP?




Pakistan - BELL 412EP Helicopters

WASHINGTON, September 15, 2010 -- The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress on 14 September of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of BELL 412EP Helicopters as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $397 million.
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to thirty BELL 412EP Helicopters, spare and repair parts, support equipment, ferry services, air worthiness certification, publications and technical data, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor logistics, engineering, and technical support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $397 million.
This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been and continues to be an important force for economic progress in South Asia and a partner in overseas contingency operations.
The proposed sale of the helicopters will increase Pakistan&#8217;s air capabilities to execute counterinsurgency operations, border security, search and rescue, and support for the civilian population in Pakistan. Pakistan, which already has Bell 412EP Helicopters in its inventory, will have no difficulty absorbing these additional helicopters into its armed forces.
The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
The prime contractor will be Bell Helicopter in Fort Worth, Texas. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.
Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any additional U. S. Government personnel in country. It is anticipated that two U.G. Government personnel will travel to Pakistan two times per year, one week per trip, for a period of up to five years to provide logistic support services.
There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mea


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> *sir jee Ukraine him self don't have 10 from where they will provide us 10 MI-14?*
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan - BELL 412EP Helicopters
> 
> WASHINGTON, September 15, 2010 -- The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress on 14 September of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of BELL 412EP Helicopters as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $397 million.
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to thirty BELL 412EP Helicopters, spare and repair parts, support equipment, ferry services, air worthiness certification, publications and technical data, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor logistics, engineering, and technical support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $397 million.
> This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been and continues to be an important force for economic progress in South Asia and a partner in overseas contingency operations.
> The proposed sale of the helicopters will increase Pakistan&#8217;s air capabilities to execute counterinsurgency operations, border security, search and rescue, and support for the civilian population in Pakistan. Pakistan, which already has Bell 412EP Helicopters in its inventory, will have no difficulty absorbing these additional helicopters into its armed forces.
> The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
> The prime contractor will be Bell Helicopter in Fort Worth, Texas. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.
> Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any additional U. S. Government personnel in country. It is anticipated that two U.G. Government personnel will travel to Pakistan two times per year, one week per trip, for a period of up to five years to provide logistic support services.
> There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
> This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mea



There were confirmed reports that these were from Ukraine, but the number of these helis was a source of anonymity. 

Can you confirm the number and origin?


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> There were confirmed reports that these were from Ukraine, but the number of these helis was a source of anonymity.
> 
> Can you confirm the number and origin?



as per sir FATMAN .

Mi-14PG for fire-fighting. 2 have been purchased and most likely to be part of the 6 Sqdn which has the AW-139 as part of SAR during national disasters .

i am agree on it because ukrine has only 5 of them and they retired them so only two was worthy for use and upgrade so its right they are for fire fighting as we have lack of air borne fire fighting systems.

as we use LAMA and punjab gov owned bell before for such job


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> as per sir FATMAN .
> 
> Mi-14PG for fire-fighting. 2 have been purchased and most likely to be part of the 6 Sqdn which has the AW-139 as part of SAR during national disasters .
> 
> i am agree on it because ukrine has only 5 of them and they retired them so only two was worthy for use and upgrade so its right they are for fire fighting as we have lack of air borne fire fighting systems.
> 
> as we use LAMA and punjab gov owned bell before for such job



Yeah, currently the buckets are slung under the Bell 412 and Mi-17, the hip offering more capacity, lama and ecueril also use it as well.

6 squadron is getting some good machinery. AW139 is a good machine. Travelled once on the PM helicopter from multan to Isl.

The NH-90 is another aircraft the PAA should look into. a good machine.


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## Imran Khan




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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


>



whose heli is that? do we have any hinds.?


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> whose heli is that? do we have any hinds.?



simply pakistan lolz.Mi-24D of Afghan Army which defected to Pakistan in period of 1987-88,.6 of them defected.at that time many planes defected to Pakistan. Besides 1 MiG-21Bis , 6 Su-22M4 , 2 Mig-17F , 2 An-26, 6 Mi-24D.
6 Mi-24s in total defected to Pakistan during the Afghan War. One was given to USA, one was gifted to China and one to France (or was it England?). The dates on which these 6 Mi-24s defected is given below together with the pilot(s) name and place where they landed.

Date -------- Pilot ---------- Place

13-07-1985 -------- Capt. Hussain -------- Landed at Miranshah
16-07-1985 -------- Capt. Daud -------- Landed at Miranshah
23-10-1986 -------- Major. Abdul Munir -------- Landed at Kohat
03-10-1987 -------- Capt. Nokolai Petrovich+2 -------- Landed in Mastuj
03-10-1987 -------- Maj. Yevginin Koszminin+2 -------- Landed at Miranshah
03-07-1989 -------- Capt. Sakiuulah -------- Landed at Qila Abduallh
Reply With Quote

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## Jango

were they used in active duty?


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> were they used in active duty?



already dis-commissioned from PAA two was used for training in quetta base


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> already dis-commissioned from PAA two was used for training in quetta base



de-commisioned is the word you are looking for.

Thanks for the info though. You related to PAA or PA? served?


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> de-commisioned is the word you are looking for.
> 
> Thanks for the info though. You related to PAA or PA? served?



never ever kabhi ghalti se bhi nhi


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> never ever kabhi ghalti se bhi nhi



Why this much , hatred or so?, then what do you do?, related to the defence in any way?


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> Why this much , hatred or so?, then what do you do?, related to the defence in any way?



its my interview thread ?

kiyoon apny sath meri posts bhi delete karani hai ?

not because hatred or some thing in fact i love pakistan and its forces as many patriots but i think i don't deserve to be part of them .thats job for few good luck men . BTW i work in gulf somewhere lolz.


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> its my interview thread ?
> 
> kiyoon apny sath meri posts bhi delete karani hai ?
> 
> not because hatred or some thing in fact i love pakistan and its forces as many patriots but i think i don't deserve to be part of them .thats job for few good luck men . BTW i work in gulf somewhere lolz.



sorry if you feel it that way. Just wanted to know how you have a knowledge and info about the military stuff. everyone has some kind of a person in the military or something so he gets motivated.!!.

Mods, kindly delete these posts after the discussion is over if you feel like it.


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## Manticore



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## Manticore

---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------










---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 PM ----------










---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 PM ----------

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## Imran Khan

sir jee again old pics ? i am damn feed up from old images .please new staff .

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## Manticore

i dont remember posting them , nor seeing them in this thread-- moreover they dont have the defence.pk watermark , so i thought they might be fresh for some!


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> sorry if you feel it that way. Just wanted to know how you have a knowledge and info about the military stuff. everyone has some kind of a person in the military or something so he gets motivated.!!.
> 
> Mods, kindly delete these posts after the discussion is over if you feel like it.



its ok dear i take it light and my info is based on what i learn .not everyone has some kind of person as i have no one .i was just kidding dear but as i remember 1995 was first time when i attract to pakistani forces till today i am student for military affairs .


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## Imran Khan

ANTIBODY said:


> i dont remember posting them , nor seeing them in this thread-- moreover they dont have the defence.pk watermark , so i thought they might be fresh for some!



sir posted already many times no water mark because not yet someone add them in gallery .some are from 2007 2008 time others rah e rast and rah e nijat time . but wait sir sorry as you like sir i am not old enough to ask you don't post


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## Manticore

i know they are of 2008 , actually i posted them on another forum where people were saying pak is not doing anything on wot -- ive posted over 200 pak. army wot pic there -- 70% are covered here -- but i didnt post them here as most wouldve been repetitions---- the sad thing is they still dont value pak. contribution-- the army pr and pak media are seriously incompetent and lack foresight--- our image as pakistanis has been tarnished


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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


> i dont remember posting them , nor seeing them in this thread-- moreover they dont have the defence.pk watermark , so i thought they might be fresh for some!



Some images are old, some are new. But those Cobras and jet ranger in the field is old.

---------- Post added at 04:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 PM ----------




ANTIBODY said:


>




An-124 is the plane. Is this the new Mi-17 V5 from Kazan?


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> An-124 is the plane. Is this the new Mi-17 V5 from Kazan?



nope its not new its old pakistani bird 





July 14, 2010


Press Releases 2010

Pakistan Army Helicopters Return to Pakistan after U.S.-Funded Maintenance. (State Dept.)





A Pakistan Army Mi-17 helicopter is unloaded from a transport plane at Chaklala Air Base today. It was one of four Pakistan Army Mi-17 helicopters delivered back to the Pakistan Army by the United States which have completed US-funded maintenance overhals

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## Jango

Well it is a V 5 model. Does US have a maintenance facility of Mi-17?


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> Well it is a V 5 model. Does US have a maintenance facility of Mi-17?



its V model SO sir?


U.S. has funded maintenance overhauls for 24 Pakistan Army Mi-17s, twelve of which were completed and returned to Pakistan last year. The remaining eight helicopters are scheduled for delivery later this year. The U.S. is also coordinating with the Pakistan Army to fund overhauls for another 10 Mi-17s,


its happen in DTI's technicians dear and yes USA also maintain afghan MI-17 fleet there too .DTI has applied for and received U.S. Department of State Brokering permission and/or approval of a Technical Assistance Agreement for all its activities in Afghanistan and Pakistan.


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> its V model SO sir?
> 
> 
> U.S. has funded maintenance overhauls for 24 Pakistan Army Mi-17s, twelve of which were completed and returned to Pakistan last year. The remaining eight helicopters are scheduled for delivery later this year. The U.S. is also coordinating with the Pakistan Army to fund overhauls for another 10 Mi-17s,
> 
> 
> its happen in DTI's technicians dear and yes USA also maintain afghan MI-17 fleet there too .DTI has applied for and received U.S. Department of State Brokering permission and/or approval of a Technical Assistance Agreement for all its activities in Afghanistan and Pakistan.



actually PAA was not satisfied with the upgrade work of DTI and has returned at-least 5 Mi-17s to the US, which in turn has delivered these helos to the afghans to be used as 'spares'. all future PAA upgrades are being undertaken in the Czeck republic.

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## Jango

Thanks fatman. Now, the PAA is looking to the Russo-Slavic states for the maintenance of these helis. 

The V5 model is the newest one with a dolphin nose, cargo loading door instead of clamshell and some engine changes.

Fatman17, is the Kazan factory still operational?


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Thanks fatman. Now, the PAA is looking to the Russo-Slavic states for the maintenance of these helis.
> 
> The V5 model is the newest one with a dolphin nose, cargo loading door instead of clamshell and some engine changes.
> 
> Fatman17, is the Kazan factory still operational?



yes it is.

---------- Post added at 08:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 AM ----------




nuclearpak said:


> Thanks fatman. Now, the PAA is looking to the Russo-Slavic states for the maintenance of these helis.
> 
> The V5 model is the newest one with a dolphin nose, cargo loading door instead of clamshell and some engine changes.
> 
> Fatman17, is the Kazan factory still operational?



infact 2 fire-fighting Mil-14's have also been purchased.


----------



## Windjammer

Captain Asim Karim Khan Shaheed (SBT) - Pakistan Army Aviation - YouTube

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## Blackpearl

On 10 Feb 2010, 2-3 AH-1F Cobra helos were providing top cover to ground forces in Aurakzai Agency, during the fight one Cobra was hit by enemy fire and crashed. Two brave pilots Maj Mudassir and Capt Asim of Army Aviation Combat Group embarrassed Shahadat while serving for their motherland. Many reasons were cited for the crash, but one most probabble (and also mentioned in the video) is that pilots getting their helo too low from the prescribed height, i.e. 3000 - 3500 ft AGL. What was more tragic that immediately, after the crash a botched rescue attempt was launched to get to the crash site. 2 Bell 412s were immediately sent to the crash site. with brigade commander on board one of the helo. By that time, terrorists had set up an ambush at the crash site, because they knew that there will be a rescue attempt. The 2 Bell 412 dropped limited force at the crash site 7-8 soldiers including 2 officers (one of them Brigadier), the rescue party was seriously outnumbered and immediately came under heavy enemy fire. In the ensuing battle, the Brigadier also embraced Shahadat, and rescue party was pulled out under heavy fire from the crash site. The bringing down of Cobra has generated a lot of discussion as what actually bring down the bird. Talibans are known to operate 12.7 mm, 14.5 mm guns along with RPG-7. If a chopper gets too low, it may be easilly attacked by skillful siting of the weapon and equally competent gunner.


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## Manticore




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## fatman17

ANTIBODY said:


>



i didnt know PAF was operating the Cobras?


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## Fieldmarshal

fatman17 said:


> i didnt know PAF was operating the Cobras?



They dont, PAA does......its them indians, as their AF operates all types of air elements both fixed and rotary. so they think every one else does the same


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## Cool_Soldier

Pakistan seriously lack of advanced attack helicopter.Any progress in this regards..?


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## ghazi52

Fieldmarshal said:


> They dont, PAA does......its them indians, as their AF operates all types of air elements both fixed and rotary. so they think every one else does the same



Yes, but confused enemy is very dangerous.


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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> simply pakistan lolz.Mi-24D of Afghan Army which defected to Pakistan in period of 1987-88,.6 of them defected.at that time many planes defected to Pakistan. Besides 1 MiG-21Bis , 6 Su-22M4 , 2 Mig-17F , 2 An-26, 6 Mi-24D.
> 6 Mi-24s in total defected to Pakistan during the Afghan War. One was given to USA, one was gifted to China and one to France (or was it England?). The dates on which these 6 Mi-24s defected is given below together with the pilot(s) name and place where they landed.
> 
> Date -------- Pilot ---------- Place
> 
> 13-07-1985 -------- Capt. Hussain -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 16-07-1985 -------- Capt. Daud -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 23-10-1986 -------- Major. Abdul Munir -------- Landed at Kohat
> 03-10-1987 -------- Capt. Nokolai Petrovich+2 -------- Landed in Mastuj
> 03-10-1987 -------- Maj. Yevginin Koszminin+2 -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 03-07-1989 -------- Capt. Sakiuulah -------- Landed at Qila Abduallh
> Reply With Quote


i think it was better to create a squadron of attack helo of mi-24 before gifted to friends


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## Jango

nomi007 said:


> i think it was better to create a squadron of attack helo of mi-24 before gifted to friends



Well, the only problem was, we did not have enough to make a squadron.


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## TOPGUN

nomi007 said:


> i think it was better to create a squadron of attack helo of mi-24 before gifted to friends



This is old news but how many mi-24's do we have sitting around like the one that looks in good shape ? can't we put them to work or is it simply cuz of the spare parts etc we can't?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

From what ive heard 1 or 2 are still i reasoable conditions.......And from the looks of them it looks like they were used by PA aviatio corps during sometime...


"Gallants"..


Also i wonder what happened to those afghans n soviet pilots tht defected ..... Ad LOL at the gift part... instead of using them for th army they gifted them to other countries just like parts of our country.


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## TOPGUN

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> From what ive heard 1 or 2 are still i reasoable conditions..



Thx wonder if they are able to be put to work fly worthy i think PA should do it use them on terrorist etc.


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## fatman17

none of the defected Mi-24's are airworthy anymore. according to AFM, 2 were used in ops v. terrorists/militants but due to lack of spares and ammo had to be grounded.

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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore




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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## GHOST RIDER

*MFI-17 Mushshak
*

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## fatman17

^keep em coming - very nice pics!

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## Jango

have the older Mi-17's also been newly painted?


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## GHOST RIDER




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## Jango

Mi-17 against the sunset.


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## Stealth

what are the cost of Super Cobra and Apache III ?


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## Dr. Strangelove

Stealth said:


> what are the cost of Super Cobra and Apache III ?


31 MN$ FOR SUPER COBRA AND 41 MN$ FOR APACHE III


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## MZUBAIR

PA needs T129 atleast 100 +


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## Dr. Strangelove

MZUBAIR said:


> PA needs T129 atleast 100 +


I LOVE TO SEE THESE ATTACK HELOS WITH PA


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## nomi007

i think we start joint project with turkey like fc-1 and fc-20 with china
in which we build attack helos like our own specifications

---------- Post added at 11:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------

one other now available attack jet is mi-28n that is rejected by Indians but Pakistan army is interested in this beast


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## Cool_Soldier

AH-64D Apache Wins Indian Gunship Helicopter Tender ~ Pakistan Military Review
Russian Mil Mi-28 Night Hunter gunship attack helicopter has lost the Indian tender for 22 heavy weight gunship helicopters to the USA AH-64D Block III Apache gunship helicopter.


Read more: AH-64D Apache Wins Indian Gunship Helicopter Tender ~ Pakistan Military Review


----------



## INDTAM

nomi007 said:


> i think we start joint project with turkey like fc-1 and fc-20 with china
> in which we build attack helos like our own specifications
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------
> 
> one other now available attack jet is mi-28n that is rejected by Indians but Pakistan army is interested in this beast



good for Pakistan.


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## Cool_Soldier

So India is going to induct in coming few years Apache block-3.To date, it is deadly machine.
So What PAA should do to counter this threat?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

nomi007 said:


> i think we start joint project with turkey like fc-1 and fc-20 with china
> in which we build attack helos like our own specifications
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------
> 
> one other now available attack jet is mi-28n that is rejected by Indians but Pakistan army is interested in this beast


i dont think PA ll go for this huge beast i think we have more chance with T 126 or Z 10


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## Stealth

Cool_Soldier said:


> So India is going to induct in coming few years Apache block-3.To date, it is deadly machine.
> So What PAA should do to counter this threat?



Nothing xpect "ham ye kardengay ham woh kardengay..."

60 F16s for defend PAKISTAN 
30 40 years old Mirage 
20 30 years old Helicopters
lacking in technology and quantity and now quality (Navy especially)

and if you listen these generals/admirals/Airforce chief comments look like "asi ke tesi ham ye kardengay woh kardengay" ye khali batain *****gay karengay kuch nahe.


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## Zarvan

Stealth said:


> Nothing xpect "ham ye kardengay ham woh kardengay..."
> 
> 60 F16s for defend PAKISTAN
> 30 40 years old Mirage
> 20 30 years old Helicopters
> lacking in technology and quantity and now quality (Navy especially)
> 
> and if you listen these generals/admirals/Airforce chief comments look like "asi ke tesi ham ye kardengay woh kardengay" ye khali batain *****gay karengay kuch nahe.


Mr these weapons are to fight against India not against America still now No Country doctrine is based on how to fight America our weapons are enough to fight India and we are making better weapons and equipping our Armed Forces more still we don't have weapons to fight America so please first keep facts in Mind


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## ANG

Hi Mr. INDTAM, please do not bother wasting your time on trollers or stupid posts. It is a clearly established fact that the PA aviation is seriously handicapped in terms of mobility, attack helicopters and transport helicopters when compared to the Indian Army aviation. One simply has to go to wikipedia look at the quality and quantity of assets and make a simple honest assessment.

Pakistan does not have the funds to buy any advanced attack helicopter and moreover most countries will not even sell them the platform either. Pakistan's only real choice is the Turkish option or the Chinese options. There is no way the US will sell them the Apache, or Russians the Mi-28, or South African the Tiger, or France the Tiger.

Lastly, given Pakistan is completely broke, how will the even cough up the money? Pakistan can barely afford refurbished Cobra gunships.

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## PakShaheen79

Now this is worrisome development. I think it is time for PA to wake up before it gets too late. All those artillery guns and tanks would be finding it very difficult in presence of threats like this.

----------------------

Apache Block III Remains the Finalist in India&#8217;s Attack Helicopter Selection

Apache Block III Remain Final Choice for Indian Army | Defense Update


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## fatman17

ANG said:


> Hi Mr. INDTAM, please do not bother wasting your time on trollers or stupid posts. It is a clearly established fact that the PA aviation is seriously handicapped in terms of mobility, attack helicopters and transport helicopters when compared to the Indian Army aviation. One simply has to go to wikipedia look at the quality and quantity of assets and make a simple honest assessment.
> 
> Pakistan does not have the funds to buy any advanced attack helicopter and moreover most countries will not even sell them the platform either. Pakistan's only real choice is the Turkish option or the Chinese options. There is no way the US will sell them the Apache, or Russians the Mi-28, or South African the Tiger, or France the Tiger.
> 
> Lastly, given Pakistan is completely broke, how will the even cough up the money? Pakistan can barely afford refurbished Cobra gunships.



indeed that is the situation as of today. then i also remember in 2006, people were of the view that the F-16C/D's will never be delivered to Pakistan along with the 500 AIM-120C5's. well we know the result. yes things are bleak from a procurement standpoint but one never knows what the future holds.....

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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> indeed that is the situation as of today. then i also remember in 2006, people were of the view that the F-16C/D's will never be delivered to Pakistan along with the 500 AIM-120C5's. well we know the result. yes things are bleak from a procurement standpoint but one never knows what the future holds.....



Sir if i am not wrong ZIA-UL-HAQ asked US for Apaches in late 80's but Rejected. In mid 90's or in Musharaf's Govt, we again asked for same platform but taken the Cobra Loly. Then we evaluated TIGER but after reviewing the cost, requested France to low in down but nothing came out. now we r waiting Turkish or Chinese platform to get matured. am i right ?

So what exactly US hold other then Apache ... Super Cobra ? i guess it wont be a good platform for countering threat from neighbour.


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## aziqbal

best bet for PA is to join Turkish T-129 or Chinese WZ10, forget US helos not worth it, either get downgraded ones or keep waiting for better one which will never come, on the other hand India already getting Apaches, they show the money US sells simple


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## Cool_Soldier

I am personally worried about this deal as Apache will give an edge Indian Army aviation over our army aviation.I do not see any other bird comparable to Apache is being offer to us.So certainly a gap and at the moment no near way to out.In response of all other Indian developments, Pakistan have counter balance measurements in progress.But this is the area we leg behind.Need some serious action.


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## waq

Cool_Soldier said:


> I am personally worried about this deal as Apache will give an edge Indian Army aviation over our army aviation.I do not see any other bird comparable to Apache is being offer to us.So certainly a gap and at the moment no near way to out.In response of all other Indian developments, Pakistan have counter balance measurements in progress.But this is the area we leg behind.Need some serious action.


 
no need to worry.....surely the apaches are not meant for fighting cobras....they are meant for ground attack.....the only thing that needs to be done is strengthening of air defences,sams etc. and thats it......if our cobras can raise havoc in the enemy lines then whats the need to procure such expensive toys......rather we should try to upgrade our existing fleet and increase its life........


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## Manticore

a view i read somewhere some years back-- might be based on old specs



> Having said that from what I have heard of Israeli pilots they prefer the Cobra to the Apache. The Cobra is a much smaller target and can carry similar weapons and engage targets with comparable ability. (ie from 3km both can put a ATGM through a window or hit a moving car at night... the Cobra does it much more cheaply.)
> 
> The Apache has a reputation of being a bit of a hanger Queen... a bit maintainence heavy and expensive to run and buy. It is certainly the more capable though the difference has closed with the new model of the cobra. The Main advantage of the Apache is MMW Radar, and a relatively powerful gun optimised for air to ground work, plus more and better avionics and night flying aides. The Cobra is almost as capable and cheaper to buy and use and is ship ready.





> Combat has proven that the AH-1W Super Cobra is more reliable than the Apache variants. Mission readiness rate is also better. The Corps' Super Cobras flew more than half the total attack force flight hours during Desert Storm eventhough Super Cobras only comprised less than 20% of all deployed attack choppers. They also flew 3x more flight hours per month than any other attack helicopter force during the campaign.



my guess
apache--antitank
cobra--close air upport role


----------



## GHOST RIDER




----------



## Stealth

any serious discussion in Army regarding APACHE iii @ Indian choice ??? any counter measure taken or any debate related buying latest attack heli ?


----------



## VelocuR

Stealth said:


> any serious discussion in Army regarding APACHE iii @ Indian choice ??? any counter measure taken or any debate related buying latest attack heli ?



yaar, we don't have more money to purchase. India is growing fast, it is hard to chase them now than before. We have alot of things to do unfinished business in internal matters.


----------



## TaimiKhan

Stealth said:


> any serious discussion in Army regarding APACHE iii @ Indian choice ??? any counter measure taken or any debate related buying latest attack heli ?



Indian purchase can not be matched with purchase from our side. Yeah, we can look at something in the shape of T-129 or Z-10s from China. 

We need good AAD cover for the armored formations in the shape of mobile AAD assets covering the armor formations. 

AAD composed of radar controlled SP assets & Tungusta etc kind of mobile SP AAD missile systems.

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## Jango

We dont need more attack helis to counter the purchase of Indian attack helis. A Attack helicopter is used against Armoured formations.


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## Stealth

RaptorRX707 said:


> yaar, we don't have more money to purchase. India is growing fast, it is hard to chase them now than before. We have alot of things to do unfinished business in internal matters.



Do you have any idea about how much corruption we have ? lol your statement would be change!


----------



## VelocuR

Stealth said:


> Do you have any idea about how much corruption we have ? lol your statement would be change!



yaar, our country has been corruption since birth. My statement doesn't change a bit.  For India growing fast, do you think we will chase them in long term? The answer is nope! T-129 or Z-10 is not matched with advanced Apaches III with longbrows. NATO helicopter Apache continuely intrusion into Pakistan borders, you know well.


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## farhan_9909

answer to a sword is nt a sword but a shield

we cant buy everything india buy.

as taimakhan said we need some good AAD system to counter the threat.


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## VelocuR

farhan_9909 said:


> answer to a sword is nt a sword but a shield
> 
> we cant buy everything india buy.
> 
> as taimakhan said we need some good AAD system to counter the threat.



AAD system, there is no announcement by Pakistan, no we are not planned to have them which is very costly. Pakistan currently upgrade Babur missiles and MIRVs on offensives.


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## TaimiKhan

RaptorRX707 said:


> AAD system, there is no announcement by Pakistan, no we are not planned to have them which is very costly. Pakistan currently upgrade Babur missiles and MIRVs on offensives.



AAD system in this discussion means the short range self propelled SP systems which can keep up with armor formations and engage targets which are hostile to the armor formations. 

This below system is a good example: 

Type 95 SPAAA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And then something based on this:

Pantsir-S1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


A system which can engage targets right above the armor formations and with a missile system of 20-25KM range which can target far away targets which may be engaging the armor formations from 5-8 or 10KM away. 

SP guns can be a few hundred feet behind the armor formations thus safe from direct enemy fire but able to engage targets close to or above the armor formations. 

And the SP missile system can be 2-3KM behind the armor formations and able to engage targets 18-23KM infront of the armor formations. 

And this AAD setup is much cheaper and affordable as well as deadly,provided the system is effective and tactics well evolved.

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## SQ8

RaptorRX707 said:


> AAD system, there is no announcement by Pakistan, no we are not planned to have them which is very costly. Pakistan currently upgrade Babur missiles and MIRVs on offensives.



The Army still relies on MANPADS for most of its Air defense needs, even those for the Armored corps are based on MANPADS.
There was a RFI for Chinese tracked and wheeled AAD systems. But not much came of it.


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## VelocuR

Santro said:


> The Army still relies on MANPADS for most of its Air defense needs, even those for the Armored corps are based on MANPADS.
> There was a RFI for Chinese tracked and wheeled AAD systems. But not much came of it.



Yep, effectives MANPADS. None of these has been used last ten years, well in 1999 Indian MiG-21 aircraft was shot down by Stinger as well as Soviet Wars successfully. 

FIM-92 Stinger MANPADS - YouTube

Pakistan has been deploying anti-aircraft missiles on Afghan border this year in order to prevent NATO intrusions but continue intrusions .




TaimiKhan said:


> AAD system in this discussion means the short range self propelled SP systems which can keep up with armor formations and engage targets which are hostile to the armor formations.
> 
> This below system is a good example:
> 
> Type 95 SPAAA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> And then something based on this:
> 
> Pantsir-S1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> A system which can engage targets right above the armor formations and with a missile system of 20-25KM range which can target far away targets which may be engaging the armor formations from 5-8 or 10KM away.
> 
> SP guns can be a few hundred feet behind the armor formations thus safe from direct enemy fire but able to engage targets close to or above the armor formations.
> 
> And the SP missile system can be 2-3KM behind the armor formations and able to engage targets 18-23KM infront of the armor formations.
> 
> And this AAD setup is much cheaper and affordable as well as deadly,provided the system is effective and tactics well evolved.



Sir, did Pakistan plan to develop this AAD systems something with turret guns?


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## TaimiKhan

RaptorRX707 said:


> Sir, did Pakistan plan to develop this AAD systems something with turret guns?



We can't make them inhouse, but we may be able to something from the Chinese and develop a few systems within the country, since any such plans will need lots of systems to back up the 2000+ armor force.

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## GHOST RIDER

Does army has any plans of upgrading existing cobras?
or replacing them?


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## TOPGUN

GHOST RIDER said:


> Does army has any plans of upgrading existing cobras?
> or replacing them?



As far as i know most of them have been upgraded & the ones US has given us in the past few years have been upgraded versions.. plans to replace them NOOO they are going to be around for a while. When realtions were good with US uncle sam said they would give us super cobras after a few years but nothing happend nor i think now it will ever . Thats why PA is also looking for a gunship heli in addtion to the cobars we already have lets see how things play out.


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## TOPGUN

http://youtu.be/tRPch_EuyXY

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## GHOST RIDER

TOPGUN said:


> PAF cobra air force pilots [HD] - YouTube


Damn
Nice video TOPGUN 
just one question
what is the place on which they are flying over?

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## TOPGUN

GHOST RIDER said:


> Damn
> Nice video TOPGUN
> just one question
> what is the place on which they are flying over?



Yaar most prob tribal belt areas ... i have no clue as i have no info on the video but looking at the area looks to me perhaps like tribal areas.


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## PakShaheen79

I think there a dire need to review Pakistan's overall SAM system capabilities. We certainly don't have any modern SAM system either with PA or PAF.A few years back there were talk about a European SAM system but i don't think anything concerte came out of it either.


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## Dazzler

mountainous scenery below suggest it is some where in South Waziristan.


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## unicorn

nabil_05 said:


> mountainous scenery below suggest it is some where in South Waziristan.




You can identify the terrain just by looking at it.


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## fatman17

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think there a dire need to review Pakistan's overall SAM system capabilities. We certainly don't have any modern SAM system either with PA or PAF.A few years back there were talk about a European SAM system but i don't think anything concerte came out of it either.



if you are referring to the italian deal for SAM's system for PAF, it is under delivery to replace the older Crotale SAM systems. the army relies on the ANZA series and the US Stinger SAM systems which are highly effective.


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## fatman17

GHOST RIDER said:


> Does army has any plans of upgrading existing cobras?
> or replacing them?



all current Cobras are to be upgraded to AH-1F standard. some have been and others were in the process (which may be delayed now). there was also a understanding, in fact a allocation of US500m in the CISF for the purchase of 1 squadron of Super Cobras by 2014. this may also be on hold for now.

the current Cobra fleet is in 'bad' shape due to extensive use in the WoT. i know of atleast 2 writeoffs and several helos taking 'ground fire' and require major maintenance of their airframes.


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## Cool_Soldier

Any luck about Euro tiger or deal is dead?


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## Imran Khan

Cool_Soldier said:


> Any luck about Euro tiger or deal is dead?



forget till MMRCA


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> all current Cobras are to be upgraded to AH-1F standard. some have been and others were in the process (which may be delayed now). there was also a understanding, in fact a allocation of US500m in the CISF for the purchase of 1 squadron of Super Cobras by 2014. this may also be on hold for now.
> 
> *the current Cobra fleet is in 'bad' shape due to extensive use in the WoT. i know of atleast 2 writeoffs and several helos taking 'ground fire' and require major maintenance of their airframes*.



The current tensions between the two nations has also put some spares support on "hold".


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## Imran Khan

Santro said:


> The current tensions between the two nations has also put some spares support on "hold".



its mean USA is playing same old dirty game lolz we become foll once again .


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## SQ8

Imran Khan said:


> its mean USA is playing same old dirty game lolz we become foll once again .



Just making "delays" as a card in the current poker game with us.
The Cobra's are extremely valuable assets for us in the WoT...but since we are not doing exactly what the US wants, they would rather have us suffer more at the hands of the TTP.


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## TOPGUN

Whats the total number cobra's we have in service plzz?


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## Imran Khan

Santro said:


> Just making "delays" as a card in the current poker game with us.
> The Cobra's are extremely valuable assets for us in the WoT...but since we are not doing exactly what the US wants, they would rather have us suffer more at the hands of the TTP.



thats what i say sir they put our lives in risk and threat us to do as they like .again no more US hardware for forces please


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## Emmie

TOPGUN said:


> Whats the total number cobra's we have in service plzz?



18 AH-1S (upgraded to AH-1F)
22 AH-1F

Total 40.... One crashed in 2010 so I guess rite now we have 39... I may be wrong.

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## PakShaheen79

Imran Khan said:


> thats what i say sir they put our lives in risk and threat us to do as they like .again no more US hardware for forces please



Can't agree anything else on American weapons for Pak forces.


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## Secret Service

no signs of any othr attack helicptr yet ?


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## Emmie

secretservice said:


> no signs of any othr attack helicptr yet ?



*WZ-10*






*T-129*






*Both of them are not into serial production... lets see which one of these two is painted Sabz Hallali on it..*

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## Secret Service

^^ the best choice is t-129 .


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## fatman17

Emmie said:


> 18 AH-1S (upgraded to AH-1F)
> 22 AH-1F
> 
> Total 40.... One crashed in 2010 so I guess rite now we have 39... I may be wrong.



plus 16 AH-1F transferred from Jordan - status unknown whether for spares or raising of additional assets.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Now this is what i call *CLEAR PICTURE*.






Pakistan - Army Mil Mi-17-1V Air Ambulance.

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> plus 16 AH-1F transferred from Jordan - status unknown whether for spares or raising of additional assets.



sir jee few of Jordanian colored are in service . desert cammo are from jordan .i thin 1sqn from us was for parts


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## Cool_Soldier

Imran Khan said:


> forget till MMRCA



Thats what I am gussing.
If Indian deal goes with French then Euro tiger deal would be finally dead.But Type-14 deal will be again alive.

If deal goes for Typhoon, then Euro tiger deal for us would be active again.

Lets wait a little more till MMRCCA is finalised.Game is going to end now


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Imran Khan said:


> sir jee few of Jordanian colored are in service . desert cammo are from jordan .i thin 1sqn from us was for parts



I see the cobras with the same camo flyin frm multan airbase... so i guess they r in active service.

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## Manticore

Imran Khan said:


> sir jee few of Jordanian colored are in service . desert cammo are from jordan .i thin 1sqn from us was for parts


U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan Ryan Crocker, right, flanked by Pakistani Secretary of Defense Tariq Waseem Ghazi, center, and Maj. Gen. Javed Aslam, commander of aviation assets within the Pakistani army, stands before a helicopter during the handing over ceremony of the U.S. made Gunship Cobra Helicopters at Qasim Airbase in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, Friday, Feb 2, 2007. The United States gave eight attack helicopters to Pakistan, bolstering the key U.S. ally's ability to combat Taliban and al-Qaida militants suspected of attacking neighboring Afghanistan from Pakistan's border areas


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## Fieldmarshal

ANTIBODY said:


> U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan Ryan Crocker, right, flanked by Pakistani Secretary of Defense Tariq Waseem Ghazi, center, and Maj. Gen. Javed Aslam, commander of aviation assets within the Pakistani army



wt sort of fu$#ked up reporting is that. wt the hell is "commander of aviation assets within the Pakistani army". why cant the reporter simply say "General officer commanding Pakistan army aviation or GOC PAA. why do our idiot journalist have to be such goofs and demeaning all the time. unbelievable.


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## Zarvan

Pakistan should produce its own Helicopters now even Algeria have 150 above M-117 and around 50 Mi-8 and also many other helicopters and than they also have 60 Mi-34 and now they are getting 50 above MI-24 Helicopters we need lot more helicopters than we currently have


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## Manticore

pakistani?

Fennec helicopter AS550C3 "786401" pods armed with guns of 12.7 mm.

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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


> pakistani?
> 
> Fennec helicopter AS550C3 "786401" pods armed with guns of 12.7 mm.



Nice shots ANTIBODY, what are the pods there?


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## DANGER-ZONE

ANTIBODY said:


> pakistani?
> 
> Fennec helicopter AS550C3 "786401" pods armed with guns of 12.7 mm.



What happened to this deal ? i don't see FLIR system on our EU copters ... i read on the mag that these helicopters or their configuration was not required by PA. so cancelled it ! 
i am so confused about these armed choppers 

---------- Post added at 02:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 PM ----------




nuclearpak said:


> Nice shots ANTIBODY, what are the pods there?



these are Gun pods .... read antybody's post title.


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## Fieldmarshal

danger-zone said:


> What happened to this deal ?:
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> .



GOC PAA got sent home very very early, thats what happened to the deal.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Fieldmarshal said:


> GOC PAA got sent home very very early, thats what happened to the deal.



Plz elaborate ... couldn't understand your point. !!


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## Fieldmarshal

danger-zone said:


> Plz elaborate ... couldn't understand your point. !!



well he was found involved in certain malpractices regarding this deal.
Fennec is a good platform but it is not suitable for our climate and temp. specially the hot, hazy and dusty conditions that prevail in central and southern Pakistan. 
The evaluation team that was sent to evaluate the hele was not satisfied with the above mentioned aspects of the hele but the GOC was pushing them to give it the all clear as according to him the manufactures had assured him this huge weak spot in the heles over all operational capability will be removed. 
So the team leader of the team sent to france to evaluate the hele contacted the CGS and told him the whole story, the CGS in turn told him to catch the next flight back and come back home along with the rest of the team.
An inquiry was initiated and the GOC PAA was sent packing and lost every thing in the process.

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## Last Hope

*The AH-1Fs from Jordanian Air Force are very much in service. If I am not wrong, they were used in Azm-e-Nau too.
Here are some screenshots I took from ISPR's website.

They are flying in Pakistan wearing the Jordanian Air Force's camoflague and signs.*

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## fatman17

Last Hope said:


> *The AH-1Fs from Jordanian Air Force are very much in service. If I am not wrong, they were used in Azm-e-Nau too.
> Here are some screenshots I took from ISPR's website.
> 
> They are flying in Pakistan wearing the Jordanian Air Force's camoflague and signs.*



are we saying then that 'are they on a loan/lease'??


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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> are we saying then that 'are they on a loan/lease'??



Sorry sir. Not my area of expertise. One thing is certain, the terrain they operate in and the camouflage is perfect. Maybe we decided to use the same camo in the terrain.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> are we saying then that 'are they on a loan/lease'??



I dont really see the Jordanian Roundels there. I find it hard to believe they are on lease/loan. It is not like we are being pushed to the limits, and need urgent helis.


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## shaheerahmed

after the ORBAT & Gazi base details given above , v ve simplified the details for enemy. . . wat a responsible personalities
plz do consider it


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## s_shahnawaz

Very nice and useful! I really say thanks to you.


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## GHOST RIDER

Are Pakistan Army Aviaton pilots equipped with some kind of small arms,like pistols etc?


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## Imran Khan

GHOST RIDER said:


> Are Pakistan Army Aviaton pilots equipped with some kind of small arms,like pistols etc?



yep

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## GHOST RIDER

Imran Khan said:


> yep



Thanks for the pic Imran Bhai
which one is it
Glock?
Beretta?
?


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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER



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## Inception-06

GHOST RIDER said:


>


 
Why the Pakistani Mi-17 cant carry any defence guns ? I mean something like the MG-3 or 12.7mm DhsK gun ? Why not ?

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## Zarvan

GHOST RIDER said:


>


Pakistan really needs to increase its Transport as well as Attack Helicopters Fleet can't understand why Pakistan is not buying Helicopters from China even Iran is building on their own we really need to have a lot more helicopters than we already have

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan really needs to increase its Transport as well as Attack Helicopters Fleet can't understand why Pakistan is not buying Helicopters from China even Iran is building on their own we really need to have a lot more helicopters than we already have



nice pic BTW - its not easy to induct 'new platforms'. already PAA is using 3 suppliers, Russia/Ukraine, US, France. i'm quite sure that the supply chain is complicted with 3 suppliers. if we keep adding more suppliers, it will turn into a nightmare. yes i agree we need more attack helos and medium transports. - but show me the money!?

---------- Post added at 10:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 AM ----------




Ulla said:


> Why the Pakistani Mi-17 cant carry any defence guns ? I mean something like the MG-3 or 12.7mm DhsK gun ? Why not ?



depends on the role they r used for!


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> nice pic BTW - its not easy to induct 'new platforms'. already PAA is using 3 suppliers, Russia/Ukraine, US, France. i'm quite sure that the supply chain is complicted with 3 suppliers. if we keep adding more suppliers, it will turn into a nightmare. yes i agree we need more attack helos and medium transports. - but show me the money!?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> depends on the role they r used for!


Sir why not shift to China China is growing Super Power and also its Militarily technology is getting advanced and they are great Helicopters in Chinese Military and they are building them to so we should shift to them


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Sir why not shift to China China is growing Super Power and also its Militarily technology is getting advanced and they are great Helicopters in Chinese Military and they are building them to so we should shift to them



the Z-10 is a good platform but it still has engine issues - PAA would prefer a western powerplant and avionics. at this time the only option is Super-Cobras!

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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER

---------- Post added at 11:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------

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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER

Cessna Citation Bravo of Pakistan Army Aviation which is used for VVIP transportation photographed on some Northern Areas air base.

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## GHOST RIDER

Ulla said:


> Why the Pakistani Mi-17 cant carry any defence guns ? I mean something like the MG-3 or 12.7mm DhsK gun ? Why not ?


 




fatman17 said:


> depends on the role they r used for!


 
Mi-17 can be equipped with machine guns on there side doors




http://paraglideonline.net/images/042411_8A_MedicFront.jpg

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## GHOST RIDER

here another pic of an Mi-17 MG(not Pakistani)





http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/7/3/2/2008237.jpg


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## Last Hope

GHOST RIDER said:


> Thanks for the pic Imran Bhai
> which one is it
> Glock?
> Beretta?
> ?


Usually the choice is Glock. 


GHOST RIDER said:


>


Skardu airbase is I am not wrong.


Ulla said:


> Why the Pakistani Mi-17 cant carry any defence guns ? I mean something like the MG-3 or 12.7mm DhsK gun ? Why not ?


Interesting and a great question. In active/operational terrain, the Mi-17s usually fly on a high altitude if they are coming from a base further away, usually with a Cobra, or Bell or even both for the safety of the troops. 

As I mentioned, they are flying at a height where militant fire cannot reach them, hence they are pretty safe. The much more dangerous part comes during landing or dropping of troops. Expect militant fire. Even in the case, Mi-17s cannot do anything. Hence an escort is sent to stay airborne. Another factor is the pressure if the doors are open.

On the other hand, you can add pods on the Mi-17. Like seem in this picture:

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## Jango

I once remember my father went to Miranshah i think , flying an Mi-17, some years back, then went a bit more forward with the heli, and they encountered some light fire while airborne and nearing landing zone!


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## alimobin memon

In karachi i almost every week see bell 402's equipped with Heavy mg's above Pechs area...


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## Jango

I think it is Bell 412.


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## Imran Khan

alimobin memon said:


> In karachi i almost every week see bell 402's equipped with Heavy mg's above Pechs area...



seriously man you watch it bell-402??????


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## GHOST RIDER

Imran Khan said:


> seriously man you watch it bell-402??????



By looking at the picture it dosent seems like that this heli can be equipped with MG


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

GHOST RIDER said:


> here another pic of an Mi-17 MG(not Pakistani)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/7/3/2/2008237.jpg



Remindes me of that annoying heli frm COD4 that circled around shooting every thing


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## Jango

does PAA even have a Bell 402?


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> does PAA even have a Bell 402?



thats why i got surprised dear did they got it newly ?


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> thats why i got surprised dear did they got it newly ?



Nope, we do not have Bell 402. He must have meant to say Bell 412.

Bell 206 Jet ranger and Ecueril are used for recce/scouting purposes.


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## Last Hope

He must mean this:
*
Bell 412*

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## Blackpearl

Last Hope said:


> He must mean this:
> *
> Bell 412*



Pakistani Bell 412 helos are fitted with STARSAFIRE III FLIR systems, (not all), it is mounted in the nose, unlike seen in the above pic. They are also fitted with MG-3 or M240 machine guns. The Ministry of Interior operates some grey colour Bell UH-1H Huey IIs, and some of them are having GAU-17 Gatling guns.

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## Imran Khan

Blackpearl said:


> Pakistani Bell 412 helos are fitted with STARSAFIRE III FLIR systems, (not all), it is mounted in the nose, unlike seen in the above pic. They are also fitted with MG-3 or M240 machine guns. The Ministry of Interior operates some grey colour Bell UH-1H Huey IIs, and some of them are having GAU-17 Gatling guns.



this is close look of FLIR dear


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## Blackpearl

Imran Khan said:


> this is close look of FLIR dear



This is not FLIR rather it is weather radar, shielded by the radome,
FLIR is mounted on the underside of the nose, between two lower transparent panels. It mus be hinged to rotate in 2 axes, 360 in azimuth and around 120 in verticle plain.

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 AM ----------

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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> Pakistani Bell 412 helos are fitted with STARSAFIRE III FLIR systems, (not all), it is mounted in the nose, unlike seen in the above pic. They are also fitted with MG-3 or M240 machine guns. The Ministry of Interior operates some grey colour Bell UH-1H Huey IIs, and some of them are having GAU-17 Gatling guns.



In addition to that, the ministry of Interior helis are with 6 Squadron i believe, stationed at Islamabad heliport in Islamabad.

They also have AW-139. The helis are maintained and flown by PAA personnel but owned by the MoI.


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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> In addition to that, the ministry of Interior helis are with 6 Squadron i believe, stationed at Islamabad heliport in Islamabad.
> 
> They also have AW-139. The helis are maintained and flown by PAA personnel but owned by the MoI.


6 squadron functions under cabinet division, it has nothing to do with MOI, however MOI squadron is at quetta functioning with US supplied Huey IIs for anti narcotics effort. 6 squadron has UH-1H(not Huey IIs), Bell 412 and AW139. while MOI squadron at quetta has Huey IIs.

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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> 6 squadron functions under cabinet division, it has nothing to do with MOI, however MOI squadron is at quetta functioning with US supplied Huey IIs for anti narcotics effort. 6 squadron has UH-1H(not Huey IIs), Bell 412 and AW139. while MOI squadron at quetta has Huey IIs.



My mistake.

I tend to believe that Cabinet division is under MoI. Which is not the case.


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## alimobin memon

sorry my mistake they are Bell 412 sorry guys


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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER



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## Varunastra

is pakistan inducting any attack helicopter to counter indian lch's?????...............and what about countering apaches?????(just a question guys)


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## Aamir Hussain

Are we planing to launch an attack anytime soon?;-)

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## fatman17

UDAYCAMPUS said:


> is pakistan inducting any attack helicopter to counter indian lch's?????...............and what about countering apaches?????(just a question guys)



we have Cobras for the time being.


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## alimobin memon

Cobra's are fine for it , we have Large numbers of Manpads AA launchers will destroy Lch in ashes


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## Varunastra

fatman17 said:


> we have Cobras for the time being.



don't you think it's bout time you upgraded them(if it's possible or buy new ones)into super cobra's????.........they are near about as good as the apaches!!!!


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## GHOST RIDER



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## Irfan Baloch

unicorn said:


> You can identify the terrain just by looking at it.



dont be so surprised. looks like you didnt spend much time in the countryside or flew over it much


thats called experience and knowledge of the topography with the type of features, terrain and the natural growth. I can for example tell you from the snaps what part of Baluchistan the pictures was taken depending on the desert, the bald mountains or snowy mountains with pine trees. 

I am sure he can also tell where the Punjab plans stop and the Potohar badlands start too.


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## Irfan Baloch

Imran Khan said:


> its mean USA is playing same old dirty game lolz we become fool once again .



hehe and I am sure you are not surprised 
it was just the matter of time that Uncle Sam was going to do this once again. just take it the good way, maybe Uncle wants us to be self sufficient and do it ourselves like we did with JF-17. maybe its time for a gunship now


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## razgriz19



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## fatman17

UDAYCAMPUS said:


> don't you think it's bout time you upgraded them(if it's possible or buy new ones)into super cobra's????.........they are near about as good as the apaches!!!!



we have AH-1S which are /were being upgraded to AH-1F. almost half have been. - the next step is going for the Super Cobra! the Chinese option is WS-10 if China can solve its powerplant issues!


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## Varunastra

fatman17 said:


> we have AH-1S which are /were being upgraded to *AH-1F*. almost half have been. - the next step is going for the Super Cobra! the Chinese option is WS-10 if China can solve its powerplant issues!



but they don't have twin engines like super cobra do they???


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## razgriz19

UDAYCAMPUS said:


> but they don't have twin engines like super cobra do they???



no but they are capable of firing guided missiles
i think thats the major difference


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## nomi007

our 1st desire is ah-1z super cobra




i hope we will get him
2nd is t-129




and last is Chinese
that is ever green
24hrs available


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## nomi007

china launch a new gunship called Z-19 export version








Chinese Z-19 Light Gunship Helicopter ~ Chinese Military Review

---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 PM ----------

Z-9WA Haitun attack helicopter


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## Abingdonboy

fatman17 said:


> we have AH-1S which are /were being upgraded to AH-1F. almost half have been. - the next step is going for the Super Cobra! the Chinese option is WS-10 if China can solve its powerplant issues!


 
I thought US refused to sell Pakistan the Super Cobra? If not, then why not go for the Apache Blk.III?


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## fatman17

Abingdonboy said:


> I thought US refused to sell Pakistan the Super Cobra? If not, then why not go for the Apache Blk.III?



the apache was refused but not the super cobra - PK was expected to be the 1st customer after the USMC but now it just may be a 'pipe-dream'

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## killerx

we should go for chines version i they ar cheaper can any one post a comrision chart of spes of gunship copter we can get like turkish chines version


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## fatman17

*Z-10*

The main obstacle to progress for the programme has been to secure a suitable indigenous powerplant. A handful of Z-10 prototypes flew with Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C turboshafts, but production standard aircraft (perhaps designated Z-10A) are to be powered by a Chinese-built WZ-9 engine. Delays in fully developing and producing these engines have slowed the Z-10's entry into service with the People Liberation Army (PLA).


----------



## nomi007

we also need Chinooks ch-47 and ch-53
unfortunately we can get but
we lost them
in past we saw how they participate in rescue and relief efforts in Pakistan





ch-53


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## nomi007

another option
is ac313 
Chinese AC313 Helicopter By Avicopter ~ Chinese Military Review


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> another option
> is ac313
> Chinese AC313 Helicopter By Avicopter ~ Chinese Military Review



looks like civilian version. is there a military version?


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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> looks like civilian version. is there a military version?


but we need for natural desaturated


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> but we need for natural desaturated


 we need helos who can perform military cum disaster role like Mi-17s and Pumas. the new med lift helo to be offered by MiL company is the Mi-38 in 2013. cost is between 13-15m US$. this would be a good upgrade on the Mi-17s.

---------- Post added at 05:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 PM ----------

western transport helos are just too xpensive for PK


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## Imran Khan

Former Pakistan Army Mil Mi-8MTV-1 helicopter (ex-serial number 58506), airframe construction number 94512, photographed at Eindhoven Airport, Netherlands, on December 19, 2011
it was one of five helicopters acquired as spares source by Afghanistan from Pakistan. These former Pakistan Army helicopters, including ex-serial number 58506, were seen stored at Kabul Airport on June 11, 2011.


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## Imran Khan

if afghans can refurbished them by a company Prüst Holding B.V. why we just throw them we should do it man we need choppers


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## Jango

This helicopter can now not be used for any purpose except for scrap metal.

No spare parts, no nothing.

At least that is what I have been told by a ex-PAA Mi-17 engineer.


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> This helicopter can now not be used for any purpose except for scrap metal.
> 
> No spare parts, no nothing.
> 
> At least that is what I have been told by a ex-PAA Mi-17 engineer.



so why they transfer it there for refurbished dear?


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## Imran Khan



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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> Former Pakistan Army Mil Mi-8MTV-1 helicopter (ex-serial number 58506), airframe construction number 94512, photographed at Eindhoven Airport, Netherlands, on December 19, 2011
> it was one of five helicopters acquired as spares source by Afghanistan from Pakistan. These former Pakistan Army helicopters, including ex-serial number 58506, were seen stored at Kabul Airport on June 11, 2011.



10 Mi-17 were purchased by US from a eastern european company, refurbished and leased to PAA. according to PAA, the condition of the helos was very poor (one crashed with 28 soldiers abord). so the helos were rejected. the best US could do was offer them to ANA to use as spares.


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> so why they transfer it there for refurbished dear?



I have no idea.


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> so why they transfer it there for refurbished dear?



for spare parts dear.

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## Jango

whats up with all the 'dears'???

I dont think that spare parts like transmission, and other mechanical parts could be salvaged, more like scrap metal kind of parts, and some doors, wheels, struts etc etc.


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> whats up with all the 'dears'???
> 
> I dont think that spare parts like transmission, and other mechanical parts could be salvaged, more like scrap metal kind of parts, and some doors, wheels, struts etc etc.



whatever dear!


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## Imran Khan

dears getting favorite here


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> whatever dear!



I feel kind of stupid saying dear to you, but what the hey.

Thank you dear!!!


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## Imran Khan




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## Jango

so the KPK government a Ecuerril as well!

Pic seems old as it is government of NWFP and not KPK.


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## GHOST RIDER




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## GHOST RIDER




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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER



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## nomi007




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## Aamir Hussain

Where was this Pic taken? I mean the one where two MI 17 are taking off.


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## Aamir Hussain

Imran Khan said:


>



I do not know why but I get a distinct feeling that this snap is photo shopped with Govt. of NWFP colors.


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## Aamir Hussain

fatman17 said:


> we need helos who can perform military cum disaster role like Mi-17s and Pumas. the new med lift helo to be offered by MiL company is the Mi-38 in 2013. cost is between 13-15m US$. this would be a good upgrade on the Mi-17s.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 PM ----------
> 
> western transport helos are just too xpensive for PK



It seems like a good chopper. It can operate day and night and almost all weather conditions. The engine is a combo developemnt by Pratt and Whitney and the the Russians.

The link to info: Mi-38 Medium Multipurpose Helicopter

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## fatman17

GHOST RIDER said:


>



miranshah is a PAA FOB


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## Imran Khan

Aamir Hussain said:


> I do not know why but I get a distinct feeling that this snap is photo shopped with Govt. of NWFP colors.



yep sir i look it again now and feeling same its look to me PS too sir


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## Aamir Hussain

The hanger structure is not the way it is done in Pakistan. It is too colorful! 

The light green cheat line going up to the engine cowling has no shadow of the chopper blades. But you can see the shadow just before and after the light green cheat line. Also the contours of the fuselage are not visible on the green cheat line.

It is a photoshop -but why? What was the need?


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## Aamir Hussain

Sir I am not hundred percent sure but it is not Miranshah. Let me come back to you on that. I can be wrong sir!


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## Alphacharlie

Can you please enlighten me why Pakistan army doesn't go for Z- 11 Heptrs ?


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## Imran Khan

Alphacharlie said:


> Can you please enlighten me why Pakistan army doesn't go for Z- 11 Heptrs ?



Because they go for Eurocopter AS350 and Z-11 is chines licensed product of Eurocopter AS350.


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## Alphacharlie

Thanks, But the point was Chinese version would have been cheaper. Thus, the question.


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## Jango

Aamir Hussain said:


> I do not know why but I get a distinct feeling that this snap is photo shopped with Govt. of NWFP colors.



Now that you have mentioned it, it does seem like it.

But government of KPK does have a Ecuerill.


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## TaimiKhan

GHOST RIDER said:


>


 
The topography seems to be of Northern Areas, Miranshah has no such mountains.

---------- Post added at 11:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 PM ----------




Aamir Hussain said:


> I do not know why but I get a distinct feeling that this snap is photo shopped with Govt. of NWFP colors.



Seen this helicopter many times over Peshawar Airport, not sure whom it belongs to, but the color scheme is very similar to it.


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## Imran Khan

TaimiKhan said:


> The topography seems to be of Northern Areas, Miranshah has no such mountains.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Seen this helicopter many times over Peshawar Airport, not sure whom it belongs to, but the color scheme is very similar to it.



look like pattan heliport sir jee


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## alibaz

Imran Khan said:


> look like pattan heliport sir jee



Seems to be Gilgit.


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## Imran Khan

alibaz said:


> Seems to be Gilgit.




nope gilgit runway has no heli pads dear and this pic show clearly helipad check it on google earth and there is no hmes and trees also this hanger on runway at gilgit


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## Imran Khan

ohhhh my bad i got this place its near to gilgit air port its gilgit helibase.

i got it too late  

35°55'4.21"N 74°20'37.73"E

look here same hanger same round and same trees

i won

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## Stealth

GHOST RIDER said:


>


 


ye bas khali mashakain he kartay raheengay ub tu pore dunya may mashoor hogaye hain .... "Hoon aye thay nahe chadangay" aglay har baar akar maar kar jatay hain... bas mashkain jogay he rah gaya hey ye aslaha!


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## HANI

Stealth said:


> ye bas khali mashakain he kartay raheengay ub tu pore dunya may mashoor hogaye hain .... "Hoon aye thay nahe chadangay" aglay har baar akar maar kar jatay hain... bas mashkain jogay he rah gaya hey ye aslaha!



Sir je blame high authorities these soldiers are one of the best in world and they prove it many time..... But they are trained to obey orders so the day when there will be no strings to bound them see what they will do to drones and foreign intruders


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## nomi007

i wish we have black hawks


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## nomi007




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## Aamir Hussain

Great job IK for locating the base. I suspected the location to be different from what was given in one of the posts due to the height of the mountains and the lelvel of snow. I had infact carefully studied Skardu but did not get enough time to look at Gilgit closely.

Once again thank you. You have just passed Air Intelligence 101.;-)

---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------

Kindly do not post snaps of US assets on this thread.

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## Windjammer



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## Jango

Well IK, my guess was Skardu, but after some consultation , it came out to nothing.

Well done.

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## Imran Khan

rescue mission at 4,500 metres on the Baltoro Glacier

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## fatman17

*Z-19* 

A close-up of the Z-19 prototype is shown here carrying a 90mm rocket launcher. Z-19 (?) is a light scout/attack helicopter based on H425 currently under development at Harbin Aircraft Industrial Corporation. The helicopter features a narrow forward fuselage and a tandem cockpit layout similar to those of Z-10, but with pilot sitting in the front seat and gunner in the back seat. Both crew are protected by armor plates, crash-resist seats and non-retractable front landing gears. It also features a Z-9WA style nose mounted EO turret (FLIR, TV and laser range finder). Z-19 is thought to retain the same aft fuselage, engine, transmission and rotor systems with minor modifications from H425 which speeds up the development. The helicopter can also carry the air-to-air and air-to-ground weapon package similar to that of Z-9WA under a pair stub wings, including KD-8 ATGMs, PL-90 AAMs as well as 23mm gun pods and rocket lanchers. Some specifications: TO weight 4,500kg, empty weight 2,350kg, max cruising speed 245km/h, max climb rate 9m/s, range 700km, ceiling (no ground effect) 2,400m, endurance >3hr. Z-19 is expected to support the heavier Z-10 attack helicopter from Changhe in a high-low combination, replacing the earlier Z-9WA. It was reported that Z-19 prototype first flew in May 2010. However one prototype crashed on September 18, 2010. Currently Z-19 is being evaluated by the Army. 

- Last Updated 2/2/12


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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER



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## Windjammer

---------- Post added at 10:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 AM ----------

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## Alphacharlie

Must appreciate Pakistan Army Aviation Corps is very well equipped. I would like to as Pakistani friends why dont you upgrade your Cobra using Turkish Help


----------



## Stealth

Alphacharlie said:


> Must appreciate Pakistan Army Aviation Corps is very well equipped. I would like to as Pakistani friends why dont you upgrade your Cobra using Turkish Help



The only Dept of Pakistan.. I love it... Army Aviation... Right now Pakistan don't have much funds and also waiting for some Chinese innovation.. like Z series Helicopter. Might be Pakistan military already tour-de-China-Heliz. Army also waiting for Super Cobra's of US Marine (2015).


----------



## Aamir Hussain

Do you guys have any idea of the locatino of the base shown in post 533. Let us see if we figure out the place. It looks more like Baluchistan of Southern KPK


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## alimobin memon

Guys can anyone tell me the Size of Army Aviation Cause according to wiki we lots of Hel's
Excluding PAF's which are almost 120


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## Jango

Aamir Hussain said:


> Do you guys have any idea of the locatino of the base shown in post 533. Let us see if we figure out the place. It looks more like Baluchistan of Southern KPK



I am guessing somewhere in western Balochistan.

Do you know what it is?


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## GHOST RIDER

Aamir Hussain said:


> Do you guys have any idea of the locatino of the base shown in post 533. Let us see if we figure out the place. It looks more like Baluchistan of Southern KPK


 
its Quetta


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## Aamir Hussain

The Quetta airport from has no facillity that looks like this snap.


----------



## GHOST RIDER

*Bell 412 over Gwader*

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## GHOST RIDER

*Mushak*

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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER

*Hyderabad Cantt,Helipad*

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## Jango

that is one dirty tail exhaust area.


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> that is one dirty tail exhaust area.



its called extensive use esp. in rain and flood areas of sindh - do down time!

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## GHOST RIDER



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## Nishan_101

GHOST RIDER said:


>


 
Are Mi-17 as effective as EH-101s and NH-90s in Naval role? If yes then PN should go for 11-16 of the Naval Mi-17s V7s.


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## killerx

really nice pix Pakistan army aviation man plz upload some hd wallpapers of the Pakistan cobras


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## Fieldmarshal

Nishan_101 said:


> Are Mi-17 as effective as EH-101s and NH-90s in Naval role? If yes then PN should go for 11-16 of the Naval Mi-17s V7s.



if the above pic had made u think along those lines than think again, as in this pic the hele is simply performing fire fighting duties and is collecting water in its bucket for this purpose.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> its called extensive use esp. in rain and flood areas of sindh - do down time!



Yeah, I think it would have been coming off extensive duty time. So no time for cleaning!


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## GHOST RIDER

Nishan_101 said:


> Are Mi-17 as effective as EH-101s and NH-90s in Naval role? If yes then PN should go for 11-16 of the Naval Mi-17s V7s.



*fatman17* knows best if Mi-17 are god for naval roles


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## GHOST RIDER




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## mirage 5000

Nishan_101 said:


> Are Mi-17 as effective as EH-101s and NH-90s in Naval role? If yes then PN should go for 11-16 of the Naval Mi-17s V7s.



mi-14 are for naval role sir we got 2 of them for fire fighting role sir

pakistani mi-14 ex Ukrainian and upgrade them there

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## GHOST RIDER



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## mirage 5000

GHOST RIDER
sir these pictures are posted before


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## GHOST RIDER

mirage 5000 said:


> GHOST RIDER
> sir these pictures are posted before



sorry man
I have gone through this thread many times
but i cant remember which have been posted before
can you pin point those(post number)
so i can delete them


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## mirage 5000

GHOST RIDER said:


> sorry man
> I have gone through this thread many times
> but i cant remember which have been posted before
> can you pin point those(post number)
> so i can delete them



#557 & #558 confirmed posted already but #559 not sure sir


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## TOPGUN

Awsome pics thx great job as always Ghost Rider keep up the good work bro

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## fatman17

mirage 5000 said:


> mi-14 are for naval role sir we got 2 of them for fire fighting role sir
> 
> pakistani mi-14 ex Ukrainian and upgrade them there



Mi-14 are for fire-fighting role


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## GHOST RIDER

GHOST RIDER said:


>

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## farhan_9909

what are the numbers of Mi-17 in Pak Navy/PAF./PA?


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## GHOST RIDER

*Army*
Mi-17; ~40 with 10 on order

_figure provided by Sir_ *fatman*

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## farhan_9909

What about with the PAF and NAVY?
or they dnt have them?


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## GHOST RIDER

farhan_9909 said:


> What about with the PAF and NAVY?
> or they dnt have them?



I dont think Navy use Mi-17
how ever airforce does
but i dont know the number

here is a pic


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## GHOST RIDER



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## fatman17

PAF has 4 Mi-17's for SAR.

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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER



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## GHOST RIDER




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## GHOST RIDER



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## Nishan_101

Can the Mi-17 V7 be used for Naval role?


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## Last Hope




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## MeeKaaL

Nice.......................................................


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## hassan1



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## alibaz

Pakistan flag can be seen under the roter.


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## fatman17

Z-10 

A new Army Aviation Z-10 attack helicopter is shown here. Co-developed by the 602 Institute, CHAIC and HAMC as the first dedicated modern attack helicopter for PLA Army Aviation since 1998, Z-10 is generally believed in the same class as South African Rooviak and Italian A129, yet still not as capable as American AH-64 Apache. The helicopter adopts a standard gunship configuration with a narrow fuselage and stepped tandem cockpit with the gunner in the front seat and the pilot in the backseat. The fuselage appears to have a stealthy diamond shaped cross section to reduce RCS. It also have a 5-blade main rotor made of composite material and an AH-64 style 4-blade tail rotor. All the vital areas of the fuselage including the cockpit and fuel tanks are believed to be protected by the armor plates. It weighs about 5.5 tons and was powered initially by two P&W PT6C-76C turboshaft engines (rated @ 1,250kW each) on the prototypes. However domestic developed engines (upgraded WZ-9) are being used in production batches due to the embargo imposed by the west. Its rotor and transmission systems may have been designed with extensive technical assistance from Eurocopter France and Agusta. Its weapon system may consist of up to 8 KD-8 ATGMs in box launchers under the stub wings and a 23 cannon mounted under the chin, aimed via gunner's helmet mounted sight. Furthermore PL-90 AAMs can be carried against enemy helicopters and slow-moving fixed wing aircraft. Its main weapon are 8 newly developed KD-10 ATGMs in the same class of American AGM-114 Hellfire. Similar to AH-64, Z-10 features nose mounted PNVS and TVDS housing FLIR, TV camera, laser range finder and designator. RWR and radar jammer antennas are installed on both sides of the forward and aft fuselage. In addition, two laser warning receivers was installed on top of the pylon tips. The helicopter may have been fitted with an integrated communication/navigation system, a comprehensive ECM suite, IFF, chaff/flare launchers, 1553B databus, and a glass cockpit. 2 prototypes were built in 2003 and 6 more were built in 2004. The first flight of 02 prototype took place on April 29, 2003. Several Z-10 prototypes powered by PT6C-76C engine were evaluated by the Army by 2007. In 2009 it was reported that an "optimized" version (Z-10A?) was under development and expected to enter the mass production. This version is powered by the less powerful WZ-9 engines (~1,000kW) thus has its weight reduced by eliminating certain parts such as less armor protection, simplified PNVS/TVDS on the nose and a smaller weapon load. So far at least 12 Z-10s of the first batch are in the service with PLA Army Aviation (S/N LH951xx). Recent images (March 2012) indicated that a new batch of Z-10s are entering the service featuring better PNVS/TVDS similar to the ones onboard the prototype (S/N LH981xx?), suggesting its underpowered engine problem may have partially been solved. - Last Updated 3/2/12

---------- Post added at 10:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 AM ----------




hassan1 said:


>



at least 10 chinooks were loaned to quell the insurgency in baluchistan in 1973-74 under the bhutto regime.

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## Stealth

Look how America use Pakistan, Iran and Iraq for her objectives! Chinook... interesting


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## nomi007

is there any chance of ch-47 for PA in near future


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## fatman17

PAA was planning to buy 6 ex-italian CH-47's but the overhaul/upgrade costs were very high so the idea was cancelled.


----------



## untitled

GHOST RIDER said:


>



The Army uses the same roundel as the Air Force. Why does it not have its own like the the Navy ?


----------



## Last Hope

*
From the cockpit of a MI-17.*


----------



## Last Hope



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## Last Hope



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## hassan1



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## Last Hope



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## Last Hope

*PS. The pictures I have posted , I believe some of them are taken by a Aviation Officer named Captain Jawad. 
These are from his facebook.*

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## fatman17

* Z-9W/WA/WE/WZ Dauphin* 

Z-9W is the first indigenous anti-armor attack helicopter derived from the license-built AS-365N. Its main armament are four KD-8 wire-guided ATGMs (range 600-3,000m, armor penetration >800mm). Besides anti-tank missiles, it can carry also two 57mm/90mm rocket pods, or two 12.7mm machine gun pods, or two 23mm cannons, or four TY-90 IR-guided AAMs. The helicopter wears an army camouflage but is lightly armored. It also lacks effective counter-measures against IR and laser guided SAMs. However one helicopter was seen fitted with an IRCM prototype (similar to American AN/ALQ-144) behind the main rotor but it never entered the service. A roof-mounted optical sight was tested as well. Its maximum take-off weight is 4,100kg, maximum speed 315km, maximum range 664km and ceiling 4,220m. The first prototype of Z-9W flew in 1989 and dozens have been produced (S/N LH959xx, 969xx, 979xx, 989xx, 999xx). Some Z-9Ws feature redesigned engine intakes with enhanced dust filters. An further improved night-attack version dubbed Z-9WA similar to AS 565CA Panther was developed in 2000 featuring more powerful engines and a new stub wing which can carry up to 8 KD-8 ATGMs, PL-90 or even FN-6 AAMs. Its nose is redesigned to carry a low-light TV/IRST turret (YY-1?) for night missions, with RWR antennas installed on both sides. A mast-mounted sight (or an MMW radar) prototype was also developed. Z-9WA has a better armor protection in the cockpit area, a flare launcher, datalink and a redesigned NVG compatible cockpit. An air data sensor is installed on the starboard side of the cabin. A large datalink antenna is installed underneath the boom. Z-9WAs have been entering service with the Army Aviation (S/N LH919xx, 929xx, 939xx, 949xx, 959xx, 969XX, 979XX, 989xx, 999xx, 9109xx) since early 2005 as a stop-gap measure until Z-10/Z-19 (see below) enters the service. An improved version (Z-9WZ) was also developed and it first flew on December 29, 2004. This variant is thought to feature an improved fire-control system including a laser designator which allows the helicopter to fire the new KD-10 ATGM. PLAAF also took delivery of a few Z-9WZs in 2007 (S/N 609x, 619x, 60x2x). Some of them are equipped with loudspeakers and a search light for SAR purpose. A similar variant (Z-9ZH) is also in service with the PLAAF unit stationed in Hong Kong (S/N 620x). It was reported that 4 Z-9WEs were delivered to Kenya in 2010, marking the first export success of this variant. 

- Last Updated 3/9/12 

_another option for a light armed helo for the PAA_


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## nomi007

mushak at sialkot

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## DANGER-ZONE

*April 30, 2002: Pakistan Army Aerospatiale SA-330 Puma Rawalpindi - Qasim (Dhamial) (OPQS) Pakistan*

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## DANGER-ZONE

*February 8, 2012: Pakistan - Army Mil Mi-8MTV-2 at Eindhoven (- Welschap) Netherlands.*
58502 A bit of a vague history for these helicopters. Rumours go they were used by the Afghan Army and even the United States Air Force but they were delivered to Eindhoven in a Pakistan Army color scheme; this one had the registration written in black marker on the door. It was loaded on a trailer for transport to the Czech Republic for overhaul at Kazan they said?







*February 8, 2012: Pakistan - Army Mil Mi-8MTV-2 at Eindhoven (- Welschap) Netherlands.*
8501 A bit of a vague history for these helicopters. Rumours go they were used by the Afghan Army and even the United States Air Force but they were delivered to Eindhoven in a Pakistan Army color scheme. It was loaded on a trailer for transport to the Czech Republic for overhaul at Kazan they said? 58503 is behind it on a trailer.

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## Last Hope

*From Operation Rah-e-Nijat.*

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## nomi007

East Slavonia




indian captured cheetah

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## nomi007




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## fatman17

Puma is a french origin helo which are over-hauled by IAR Romania (less labour cost). the Mi-17s are a russian/ukraine origin helo and is the no-1 used helo in the world has many countries over-hauling these helos in western and eastern europe. overhauling is a lucartive business to be in.


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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> Puma is a french origin helo which are over-hauled by IAR Romania (less labour cost). the Mi-17s are a russian/ukraine origin helo and is the no-1 used helo in the world has many countries over-hauling these helos in western and eastern europe. overhauling is a lucartive business to be in.



Mi-17 will leave a deep mark in history of Helicopters.
One of it's kind and I hardly see anything better than it coming anytime soon.
Russians certainly make better helicopters than Americans which are easily available and trusted by the world, unlike American which come with a lot of terms of use and prices are not worth it.

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## killerx

pak army need new cobra man and may be apache 64 if not can buy fron china cheap large no's


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## Arsalan

killerx said:


> pak army need new cobra man and may be apache 64 if not can buy fron china cheap large no's



as far as i can evaluate:
*Cobras*
*Pros:* good value for money, will be cheaper and may be partially funded by FMF (unlikely in current situation)
*Cons:* US reliance!

*T-129*
*Pros:* Excellent modern attack helicopter, will be a big leap for army aviation as far as technology is concerned. reliable supplier.
*Cons:* Expensive, slow delivery time (we don't seem to be in a hurry but the costs might be of a concern)

*Z-10*
*Pros:* Good value for money, most reliable supplier for Pakistan, new advanced technology, can get some soft loans and even without it, not TOO expensive.
*Cons:* A completely new platform, from a supplier not know for helicopters

with this in mind, i think the choice should be that, if we have funds go for T-129 or a mix of T-129 and Z-10, if there is real shortage of funds and we are desperate to get helos quickly, go for Z-10!

Please NO MORE US machinery! Please!

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## hassan1

DHC-2

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## Jango

arsalanaslam123 said:


> as far as i can evaluate:
> *Cobras*
> *Pros:* good value for money, will be cheaper and may be partially funded by FMF (unlikely in current situation)
> *Cons:* US reliance!
> 
> *T-129*
> *Pros:* Excellent modern attack helicopter, will be a big leap for army aviation as far as technology is concerned. reliable supplier.
> *Cons:* Expensive, slow delivery time (we don't seem to be in a hurry but the costs might be of a concern)
> 
> *Z-10*
> *Pros:* Good value for money, most reliable supplier for Pakistan, new advanced technology, can get some soft loans and even without it, not TOO expensive.
> *Cons:* A completely new platform, from a supplier not know for helicopters
> 
> with this in mind, i think the choice should be that, if we have funds go for T-129 or a mix of T-129 and Z-10, if there is real shortage of funds and we are desperate to get helos quickly, go for Z-10!
> 
> Please NO MORE US machinery! Please!



Z-10 might be a possibility after 3 or so years IMO.

And this the most probable.


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## Nishan_101

I would stick to one thing that PAC should have look towards JV with China...


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## Aamir Hussain

nuclearpak said:


> Z-10 might be a possibility after 3 or so years IMO.
> 
> And this the most probable.


 

Any idea about the powerplant? Is it Chinese or European? 

I do not think that sensors and other subsystems are at par with let us say T129 or AH1Z. 

The soft loans an the price might suit us and the reliable supplier thing would also be there but than can these machines perform in a crunch situation against the Indian armoured onslaught? 

We should not judge the performance of these and other platforms based upon their performance in WoT. These platforms are specifically designed to blunt an armoured thrust. The other uses are a bonus. 

BTW PA is incresingly using 412's UH-1 (Upgraded) for COIN ops equipped with 20mm, seven barrell gatling guns.

BTW 2. I have heared that alteast one Blackhawk and 1 Apache have been shifted to China by PA after they were found in two forty footer containers in a disassembeled condition from the NATO Supply Convoys. This happened in 2009 or 2010. The source is quite credible. Can anyone shed some light on it or have any info.


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## fatman17

Aamir Hussain said:


> Any idea about the powerplant? Is it Chinese or European?
> 
> I do not think that sensors and other subsystems are at par with let us say T129 or AH1Z.
> 
> The soft loans an the price might suit us and the reliable supplier thing would also be there but than can these machines perform in a crunch situation against the Indian armoured onslaught?
> 
> We should not judge the performance of these and other platforms based upon their performance in WoT. These platforms are specifically designed to blunt an armoured thrust. The other uses are a bonus.
> 
> BTW PA is incresingly using 412's UH-1 (Upgraded) for COIN ops equipped with 20mm, seven barrell gatling guns.
> 
> *BTW 2. I have heared that alteast one Blackhawk and 1 Apache have been shifted to China by PA after they were found in two forty footer containers in a disassembeled condition from the NATO Supply Convoys. This happened in 2009 or 2010. The source is quite credible. Can anyone shed some light on it or have any info*.



incredible news if true. the yanks would not keep quiet about it?


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## Last Hope

Aamir Hussain said:


> Any idea about the powerplant? Is it Chinese or European?
> 
> I do not think that sensors and other subsystems are at par with let us say T129 or AH1Z.
> 
> The soft loans an the price might suit us and the reliable supplier thing would also be there but than can these machines perform in a crunch situation against the Indian armoured onslaught?
> 
> We should not judge the performance of these and other platforms based upon their performance in WoT. These platforms are specifically designed to blunt an armoured thrust. The other uses are a bonus.
> 
> BTW PA is incresingly using 412's UH-1 (Upgraded) for COIN ops equipped with 20mm, seven barrell gatling guns.
> *
> BTW 2. I have heared that alteast one Blackhawk and 1 Apache have been shifted to China by PA after they were found in two forty footer containers in a disassembeled condition from the NATO Supply Convoys. This happened in 2009 or 2010. The source is quite credible. Can anyone shed some light on it or have any info.*



This is not the first time that it happened. Two Chinooks were being supplied in the same condition, and the convoy got attacked and the whereabouts are unknown. This happened in 2009-2010 too.


fatman17 said:


> incredible news if true. the yanks would not keep quiet about it?


 
The are quite about it apparently, the same way they are quite about the Chinooks being possibly in militant custody.


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## Aamir Hussain

Last Hope said:


> This is not the first time that it happened. Two Chinooks were being supplied in the same condition, and the convoy got attacked and the whereabouts are unknown. This happened in 2009-2010 too.
> 
> 
> The are quite about it apparently, the same way they are quite about the Chinooks being possibly in militant custody.


 
The info. on swiping of helos in containers from NATO convoys is also quote in Carey Schofields' book, "Inside Pakistan Army." 

However, in my opinion, Chinooks would not fit into 40 footer due to the nature of shape of its structure (No real tail). However, a Blackhawk can be stored in a forty footer in a disassembeled mode. 

BTW yuo can buy the Check list, Maint Manual, Etc. of most of the helos in Peshawer. It is sold by the pound!!! One of the PAA pilots was astounded by this discovery -- one of the manuals covered assembly of a Apache!

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## Jango

Aamir Hussain said:


> Any idea about the powerplant? Is it Chinese or European?
> 
> I do not think that sensors and other subsystems are at par with let us say T129 or AH1Z.
> 
> The soft loans an the price might suit us and the reliable supplier thing would also be there but than can these machines perform in a crunch situation against the Indian armoured onslaught?
> 
> We should not judge the performance of these and other platforms based upon their performance in WoT. These platforms are specifically designed to blunt an armoured thrust. The other uses are a bonus.
> 
> BTW PA is incresingly using 412's UH-1 (Upgraded) for COIN ops equipped with 20mm, seven barrell gatling guns.
> 
> *BTW 2. I have heared that alteast one Blackhawk and 1 Apache have been shifted to China by PA after they were found in two forty footer containers in a disassembeled condition from the NATO Supply Convoys. This happened in 2009 or 2010. The source is quite credible. Can anyone shed some light on it or have any info.*



http://www.cool-smileys.com/smiley-with-eyes-popping-out

Well helis are transported in broken down parts, but why in a truck through Pakistan? A IL-76 or An-124 rented by the Rssian company, or even by the C-5/C-17 might have been a more safe option for the US. And is it 100% confirmed by you?

The AH-1Z is not up for exports until a year more, and the current relations are not really hunky dory either!!!

uh-1's and Bell-412's are a good option for use against militants in the open.

While the Z-10 might not be a really top notch platform, it is still the viable option rather than the Zulu cobra.

T-129 is on a bit expensive side IMO, but a good platform none the less, but PA is in no hurry to go for helis, so after a period of about 1 year, we might get a better clue as to which one is better.


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## Aamir Hussain

nuclearpak said:


> http://www.cool-smileys.com/smiley-with-eyes-popping-out
> 
> Well helis are transported in broken down parts, but why in a truck through Pakistan? A IL-76 or An-124 rented by the Rssian company, or even by the C-5/C-17 might have been a more safe option for the US. And is it 100% confirmed by you?
> 
> The AH-1Z is not up for exports until a year more, and the current relations are not really hunky dory either!!!
> 
> uh-1's and Bell-412's are a good option for use against militants in the open.
> 
> While the Z-10 might not be a really top notch platform, it is still the viable option rather than the Zulu cobra.
> 
> T-129 is on a bit expensive side IMO, but a good platform none the less, but PA is in no hurry to go for helis, so after a period of about 1 year, we might get a better clue as to which one is better.


 
Thanks for the info.

Yes I agree with you taht helos are generally transported by large transport a/c. But my source is 99% sure that the incident did happen. And Carey Schofield quoted this incident in her book. She stayed with PA on and off in the field between 2004 to 2010. So there seem to be some event that happened but was never reported. 

The timeline on Z-10 is .... vs AH1Z is end of this year. Furthermore, any info. on the powerplant of Z-10; is it European? If so than there can be this little complication to handle alongwith the gearbox.

My point is to highlight the fact that to put up a credible defense by any country, it has to form alliances. Sometimes, those alliances are not of choice but of convenience or neccessity. We also need to see that what is credible defense against our "Friend" from the east? 

All the time making do with stop gaps while our friend is not only enhnacing the quantity but the quality requires a rethink of our external alignments. 

Being the smaller army, PA needs to enhnace its quality of hardware and training. Both require induction of top of the line equipment (whether through outright buy or through aid) and access to top quality traning. Unfortunately, those things are not available to our North East. 

In the present circumstances, spending $$$ out of pocket is out of question, therefore we need to make intelligent choices, choices that might not be popular but logical and in the interest of Pakistan given the happenings in the east.

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## Jango

Aamir Hussain said:


> Being the smaller army, PA needs to enhnace its quality of hardware and training. Both require induction of top of the line equipment (whether through outright buy or through aid) and access to top quality traning. Unfortunately, those things are not available to our North East.
> 
> In the present circumstances, spending $$$ out of pocket is out of question, therefore we need to make intelligent choices, choices that might not be popular but logical and in the interest of Pakistan given the happenings in the east.


 
At the moment, the engine on Z-10 is Pratt and Whitney, to the best of my knowledge. Although a Chinese might be used on production helis, f P&W is the engine used on production line as well, problems may occur.

Now onto the quoted paragraph

The relations with US might not allow for us to go for the top most available platform, in t limit of the cash we have. Even though we might be willing to buy the cobras, even against popular opinion, I doubt that the US would be wanting to go ahead and give the nod to a defense deal of this kind, especially if the current situation exists i.e halt of NATO supply, and a freeze in aids and all sorts of things.

The other two helis in consideration are not yet matured platforms, a bit like JF-17, and while one is cost effective and from a reliable ally (engines might cause a problem due to manufacturer) , the other is bit heavier on the pocket

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## Aamir Hussain

nuclearpak said:


> At the moment, the engine on Z-10 is Pratt and Whitney, to the best of my knowledge. Although a Chinese might be used on production helis, f P&W is the engine used on production line as well, problems may occur.
> 
> Now onto the quoted paragraph
> 
> The relations with US might not allow for us to go for the top most available platform, in t limit of the cash we have. Even though we might be willing to buy the cobras, even against popular opinion, I doubt that the US would be wanting to go ahead and give the nod to a defense deal of this kind, especially if the current situation exists i.e halt of NATO supply, and a freeze in aids and all sorts of things.
> 
> The other two helis in consideration are not yet matured platforms, a bit like JF-17, and while one is cost effective and from a reliable ally (engines might cause a problem due to manufacturer) , the other is bit heavier on the pocket


 
Thanks for the info. China is about three years away from perfecting a helo powerplant. Untill than we need to think through our options in relations to our needs both in military and economic front.

Our soldiers died but I would be happy if their supreme sacrafice would ensure a better bargaining position for us in the Afghan end game. If so that sacrafice would not have gone in vain.

We need to move on beyond absolutes. There are no real red lines in relations between countries. US has been forced to come to the negotiating table with more equal terms:

1. UN Peace Keeping type rate and mode of payment of CSF Based Effort(Army so desired)
2. Higher per container transit charge (Civies wanted it)
3. Apology for the attack.
4. Prior notice on drones strikes and priority on TTP/Al-Qaeda strikes in conjunction with PA/Intelligence.

Need to be pragmatic about options and final solutions.

I salute the martyrs of Salala -- afterall they were soldiers of Pakistan and they died for a better tommorow for us. Let us not squander away their sacrafice in drum beating and bravado but gain strength from their sacrafice.

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## Aamir Hussain

fatman17 said:


> incredible news if true. the yanks would not keep quiet about it?


 
Yes you are right in presuming that but than when did we hear anything about any of the hundreds of NVG's, Barrets, Kevlar vests being looted and their empty containers being sold in Peshawer.

There have been reports and videos of HUMVEES being driven in FATA by Talibs. 

I am pretty much sure that this event happened. I have heard of this rumor some times ago last year but when a PAA officer confirmed it recently than I brought it up on the forum.


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## Jango

Aamir Hussain said:


> Yes you are right in presuming that but than when did we hear anything about any of the hundreds of NVG's, Barrets, Kevlar vests being looted and their empty containers being sold in Peshawer.
> 
> There have been reports and videos of HUMVEES being driven in FATA by Talibs.
> 
> I am pretty much sure that this event happened. I have heard of this rumor some times ago last year but when a PAA officer confirmed it recently than I brought it up on the forum.


 
Alot of stuff from the NATO supply goes into the black market. A friend of mine recently bought some digi camos, boots, rifles, almost everything that a infantry soldier has from the outskirts of Peshawar.

But a helo!!!!???

Some stupid Yanks!


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Alot of stuff from the NATO supply goes into the black market. A friend of mine recently bought some digi camos, boots, rifles, almost everything that a infantry soldier has from the outskirts of Peshawar.
> 
> But a helo!!!!???
> 
> Some stupid Yanks!



all is NOT pilfered from the NATO containers. nearly 50% of such equipment supplied/given to the afghan army/police is 'claimed' to be lost and is sold in the bara market by smugglers of both afghan and PK.

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## mdcp

We should go for chinese with technology transfer


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## Aamir Hussain

fatman17 said:


> all is NOT pilfered from the NATO containers. nearly 50% of such equipment supplied/given to the afghan army/police is 'claimed' to be lost and is sold in the bara market by smugglers of both afghan and PK.



Yes FM a lot of it is leakage is from ANA, and pillferage at the Afghan side. Some of the stuff -- more of a personal nature is sold off on throwaway prices or given away by leaving US Soldiers. I have been told by some of my subordinates who were working in Roshan and Afghna Wirelsess that daily lot upon lot of stuff incluing guitars, organs, amps. DVD's, etc. are picked up by contractors from Jallalabad, Bagram, and Kandahar and sold off in the markets of Kabul. 

MRE's are pillfered from ANA storage facilties (All of them are marked halal - therefore they are destined for ANA or Afghan Civil Govt. use.)

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## notorious_eagle

Aamir Hussain said:


> BTW 2. I have heared that alteast one Blackhawk and 1 Apache have been shifted to China by PA after they were found in two forty footer containers in a disassembeled condition from the NATO Supply Convoys. This happened in 2009 or 2010. The source is quite credible. Can anyone shed some light on it or have any info.



Sir

I have also heard a similar story but its hard to digest. The yanks will make a huge hue regarding something like this and considering how much hold they have in Pakistan, this story is a little bit hard to believe. I could understand if various parts were siphoned off but its hard to believe that a whole chopper was siphoned off without raising any alarm. I am sure Americans have installed tracking devices on such valuable assets considering that Apache's and Blackhawk's are some of the finest pieces of technology that the Yanks can offer.

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## nomi007

after Siachen_Glacier accident
i hope pa will get 1st heavy lifters


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## DANGER-ZONE

*March 15, 2012:* _Pakistan Army MFI-17 Mushshak at Rawalpindi - Qasim (Dhamial / OPQS) Pakistan_.

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## PakShaheen79

PA needs strategic airlift capability ASAP for both defense and civilian purposes.


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## Jango

PakShaheen79 said:


> PA needs strategic airlift capability ASAP for both defense and civilian purposes.



What do you mean by that???

That we should get what equipment?



nomi007 said:


> after Siachen_Glacier accident
> i hope pa will get 1st heavy lifters



And what did the siachen incident do that you have made an assumption like this?


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## PakShaheen79

nuclearpak said:


> What do you mean by that???
> 
> That we should get what equipment?



the ability to move large number of troops and machinery to front line in minimum time. Indians captured Siachen passes due to having this ability and Pakistanis were late in this race due to absence of this.

Heavy lift choppers, planes, etc.


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## fatman17

*Mi-17/171 Hip (Armed Version)* 

An Mi-171 was taking off carrying 6 rocket launchers. It is one of the over 100 Russian-made Mi-17/171s (serial numbers LH917xx, 927xx, 937xx, 947xx, 957xx, 967xx, 987xx, 997xx) which represent the majority of medium transport helicopters in service with PLA Army Aviation (LH). In order to replace the obsolete Z-5/Mi-4, 24 Mi-17s were initially purchased in 1991 following the US government's refusal to sell more S-70Cs. Since then another 35 improved Mi-171s were purchased in 1995. Among them, some were modified by adding IFF, ASO-2V chaff/flare dispensers and external pylons for carrying up to six bombs, fuel tanks, or rocket launchers. Some are also able to lay mines or to carry paratroopers. Most Mi-17/171s have been upgraded with a pair of communication antennas on top of and beneath the boom. However unlike the similar type in service with Russian Army (Mi-8TV), these locally modified Mi-171s appear to lack cockpit armor plates, nose machine gun, engine exhaust IR suppressors. Its cruise speed is 230km and range is 1,000km. Apparently this cheap, robust and versatile helicopter has become the backbone of LH. A small number of Mi-171s modified with a search light, an IRST turret also entered the service with PLAAF for SAR missions (serial # 30x7x). A new batch of Mi-171 (M-171E?) was imported in 2006 by the Army (S/N B46xx, 927xx, LH987xx, 997xx, 9107xx) as well as the Air Force (S/N 999xx) which has a similar configuration (solid nose and loading ramp) as Mi-17V5 (see below). A few VIP model were also imported (with old Mi-17 style rear doors). A few Mi-171s do have an IR jammer (SOEP-V1A?) installed which works together with the flare dispenser to protect the aircraft from MANPADS attacks. One Mi-171 was modified in 2008 to have two antennas installed on top of the external pylons. These mushroom shaped antennas may serve for the communication (relay) purposes. Another type of antenna was seen intalled on top of the tail boom of an Mi-171 probably for navigational purpose (GPS/Beidou). At least one Mi-171 has been equipped with a retractable battlefield surveillance radar similar to that onboard French AS-532 Horizon battlefield surveillance helicopter. 

- Last Updated 4/28/12



PakShaheen79 said:


> the ability to move large number of troops and machinery to front line in minimum time. Indians captured Siachen passes due to having this ability and Pakistanis were late in this race due to absence of this.
> 
> Heavy lift choppers, planes, etc.



heavy lift helos can have difficuly operating in high altitude conditions.


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## aziqbal

many people is asking about AH-1 Cobras,

Pakistan got delivered 10 X AH-1S in 1985
then again another 10 x AH-1S in 1986

making 20

we then got 

12 x AH-1F in 2007
and 14 x AH-1F in 2010

making total of 20+12+14= 46 Cobra attack helos, obviously not taken into acc lost/damaged/withdrawn from service ones 

in addition we have recieved around dozen even or more Cobras to be used only for spares


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## Edevelop



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## Nishan_101

I think Pak Army will very soon select the Z-10P and most probably it would going to produce/assembled at PAC. INSHA ALLAH.


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## aziqbal

Nishan_101 said:


> I think Pak Army will very soon select the Z-10P and most probably it would going to produce/assembled at PAC. INSHA ALLAH.



did you just make up Z-10P? u mean WZ-10, that will not happen, currently PLA 5th avitaion regiment only operate 12 x WZ-10s (LH95101-95112) and the 4th regiment is due to stand up soon, PLA has a massive requirment will not export soon


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## fatman17

*MFI-395 Super Mushshak Trainer Aircraft, Pakistan*


Key Data 
Crew Two
Manufacturer Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Operators Pakistan Air Force and Royal Saudi Air Force
Maiden Flight August 1996 Service Entry May 2001 Length 7.15m Wingspan 8.85m 
.

MFI-395 Super Mushshak is a military trainer / light attack aircraft designed and manufactured by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF). It was derived from the MFI-17 Mushshak trainer aircraft. Approximately 300 MFI-395s are currently operational at the academies of the Pakistan Armed Forces.

Previous orders to the PAF, RSAF and Royal Air Force of Oman
Customer orders for the MFI-395 included: PAF (50), RSAF (20) and Royal Air Force of Oman (five).

The PAF received its first Super Mushshak in May 2001. Deliveries to the Royal Air Force of Oman were concluded in 2004.

Designed to suit military and civilian missions
The MFI-395 was designed to provide primary flight training to the pilots of the PAF Academy situated at Risalpur. It was designed to suit both military and civilian missions. The aircraft's design is compliant with the US FAR 23 certification standards in aerobatics and utility classes.

The tricycle type undercarriage allows the aircraft to operate from unprepared airstrips and rough airfields, even in hostile conditions.

Pakistan's MFI-395 training aircraft development
"The MFI-395 is powered by Lycoming IO-540 V4A5 six-cylinder engine rated at 194kW (260hp) of output power."The development of the MFI-395 started in 1995. The aircraft was built by upgrading the MFI-17 with an advanced 260hp engine, electrical instruments, dual flight control systems and a Bendix RSA fuel injection system.

The maiden flight of the Super Mushshak took place in August 1996. The production aircraft was rolled out in November 2000. It entered service in May 2001 and was certified by the Pakistan Civil Aviation Authority in 2002.

It was displayed at the Dubai Air Show held in November 2011.

Features and spacious cockpit of the MFI-395 Super Mushshak
The MFI-395 features a high wing monoplane design. It boasts two integral fuel tanks which carry 47 gallons of fuel. The large baggage compartment located aft of the cockpit can be easily accessed through a door on the rear side of the fuselage.

"Customer orders for the MFI-395 included: PAF (50), RSAF (20) and Royal Air Force of Oman (five)."The Super Mushshak is equipped with a blind screen, which allows the aircraft to carry out instrument flying missions.

The spacious glass cockpit of the MFI-395 accommodates two flight crew members, a student pilot and a flight instructor. It is integrated with two ejection seats adjacent to each other, with an option for third seat at the rear side. It is enclosed by an oval shaped glass canopy which opens upwards to meliorate the visibility.

The cockpit is equipped with two multifunctional displays to exhibit data related to navigation, flight instrumentation, fuel and the engine. It is also equipped with an Enviro R-134 air conditioning system to sustain constant temperature.

Avionics installed on the military trainer / light attack aircraft
The avionics suite incorporated in the MFI-395 includes instrument flight rules (IFR) capable electronic flight instrumentation system (EFIS), a global positioning system, instrument landing system, voice over recorder, UHF radio, automatic direction finder, distance measuring equipment and information friend or foe transponder.

Missiles and gunpods of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex's aircraft
The MFI-395 is fitted with six hardpoints under the wing pylons. The inner two stressed hardpoints can carry up to 150kg each. The remaining four carry rockets, gunpods and Bofor Bantam anti-tank missiles.

Lycoming engines and performance of PAC's MFI-395 Super Mushshak
The MFI-395 is powered by Lycoming IO-540 V4A5 six-cylinder engine rated at 194kW (260hp) of output power. The engine is driven by a two-bladed Hartzell propeller which can rotate at a constant speed of 2,700rpm.

The dry weight of the engine is 199kg. The time between overhaul is 2,000 hours.

The MFI-395 can climb at the rate of 8.6m/s. The never exceed and maximum speeds of the aircraft are 363km/h and 268km/h respectively. The cruise speed is 240km/h. The stall speed is 96km/h. The maximum range and service ceiling are 814km and 6.7km respectively. The maximum endurance is 4 hours 15 minutes.




The Global Military Aircraft Market 2011-2021
This project forms part of our recent analysis and forecasts of the global Military Aircraft market available from our business information platform Strategic Defence Intelligence. For more information click here or contact us: EMEA: +44 20 7936 6783; Americas: +1 415 439 4914; Asia Pacific: +61 2 9947 9709 or via email.

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## Last Hope

Found this really interesting.


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## Imran Khan




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## Jango

Ah, the little shweizer!!!

almost seems like a toy!!!


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## nomi007

self deleted


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## Amir.MI-171

nice picture



nomi007 said:


> self deleted



can we upload here picture which i took at Sudan Pak Aviation???

This picture took at Sudan Peace Mission Pak Aviation.....

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## TaimiKhan

Amir.MI-171 said:


> nice picture
> 
> 
> 
> can we upload here picture which i took at Sudan Pak Aviation???
> 
> This picture took at Sudan Peace Mission Pak Aviation.....



Yes Sir, you are more then welcome to post pictures of PA Aviation on this thread. 

Hope to see more stuff from your side.

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## fatman17

Amir.MI-171 said:


> nice picture
> 
> 
> 
> can we upload here picture which i took at Sudan Pak Aviation???
> 
> This picture took at Sudan Peace Mission Pak Aviation.....



looking forward to your valuable contributions in the army and army aviation sections. would also appreciate your comments in pakistan's war segment.
welcome to pafdef.


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## Amir.MI-171

picture took at NVG training in Rawalpindi along with foreigner expert






Picture took UN Peace Mission Sudan 2008






Me along with Mr Lt Gen Lidder JSM (India) force commander UN Peace Mission Sudan

I just justify the personality of Mr Lt Gen Lidder even he from India but to be frankly he is very friendly and cooperative person in whole session of UN Peace Mission with Pakistan aviation IV

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Ah, the little shweizer!!!
> 
> almost seems like a toy!!!



like your avtar - go gunners!


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> like your avtar - go gunners!



Whoa whoa whoa.

You a gunner fan???

And thanks!!!



Amir.MI-171 said:


> picture took at NVG training in Rawalpindi along with foreigner expert



Is this in Multan region, considering the air filters in front of the intakes?


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## Blackpearl

there is no MI-17 helo squadron in Multan, this pic is taken at Qasim Base, as already high lighted in the pic. 
I think, filters come factory fitted and there is no option to remove them and fly if they have come as factory fitted.


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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> there is no MI-17 helo squadron in Multan, this pic is taken at Qasim Base, as already high lighted in the pic.
> I think, filters come factory fitted and there is no option to remove them and fly if they have come as factory fitted.



yes, i know.

Maybe for some exercise or something.

Woops, i did not read the part above the photo, now that you have pointed out, thanks.

That box does not come factory fitted I believe. 

The small round thing infront of the intakes comes factory fitted. The big visual difference between Mi-8 and Mi-17. 17 has round filters infront of intakes, while Mi-8 does not. I am talking about the box filters.

In post 633, you can evidently see that there are no box filters. Those are add ons.


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## Jango

*PAA helicopter crashed in Chenab river near Wazirabad. 2 pilots were onboard, training flight. *

It is a Schweizer from what I have heard.


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## Jango

A Mi 17 and Bell 412 have landed near the crash site carrying rescuers and it her people. A diver team from Mangla also called in.

Heli crashed in river, so water flow carrying away the bodies Nd debris could be a possibility. 

May Allah have mercy


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> *PAA helicopter crashed in Chenab river near Wazirabad. 2 pilots were onboard, training flight. *
> 
> It is a Schweizer from what I have heard.



when did this happen


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## Jango

Around noon. 

Helicopter had been found from riverbed. Search still going for bodies.


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## Jango

Wreckage of the helicopter.

The helicopter was hoisted by a Mi-17 from under water, and then put on ground.

One pilot was a Major, other was Captain. Most probably helicopter was from ArmyAviation training school in Gujranwala.

Somehow, i remember that Tarbela dam incident.


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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> Somehow, i remember that Tarbela dam incident.



Which accident you are referring
I remember, a Bell 412 crashed in a lake near Khanpur some years ago.
i question, why aviationn aircraft fly over water bodies once neither they are equipment of flotation gears (unlike Navy helos), nor our pilots wear any kind of life vest for flotation.


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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> Which accident you are referring
> I remember, a Bell 412 crashed in a lake near Khanpur some years ago.
> i question, why aviationn aircraft fly over water bodies once neither they are equipment of flotation gears (unlike Navy helos), nor our pilots wear any kind of life vest for flotation.



Yeah sorry. Kanpur dam, not Tarbela. You are right. 

It is part of training and all the course. Navy I lots are specialized for the role, so they are equipped, but no big issue IMO.


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## nomi007

Schweizer
pak army lose this type of aircraft last week

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## Edevelop

nomi007 said:


> Schweizer
> pak army lose this type of aircraft last week



Did we actually import this heli?
Its pretty small and i'm sure we can make it on our own....


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## hassan1

pak army Schweizer 300

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## Nishan_101

I think PAC has the ability to build helis like Lama which are much better than that and will be cheaper too. Just add some sensors and a SNIPER on board at read than we can do many things even in place like Siachin as well.


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## Imran Khan

this is one of my favorite image

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## mohsinkid

Sorry for being off the topic but a separate thread was unnecessary for this small post about PDF content.

It is observed on PDF that many professionals trying to gain attention or act 'cool' release information that should be confidential.Everything does not need to be made public or supplied to potential threats who can use it for their benefit to sabotage .

Best policy is through confusion and misguidance  .


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## fatman17

mohsinkid said:


> Sorry for being off the topic but a separate thread was unnecessary for this small post about PDF content.
> 
> It is observed on PDF that many professionals trying to gain attention or act 'cool' release information that should be confidential.Everything does not need to be made public or supplied to potential threats who can use it for their benefit to sabotage .
> 
> Best policy is through confusion and misguidance  .



if its available on the net. then its not confidential.



Nishan_101 said:


> I think PAC has the ability to build helis like Lama which are much better than that and will be cheaper too. Just add some sensors and a SNIPER on board at read than we can do many things even in place like Siachin as well.



if any building/manufacture of helos is done it would be at PAA-dhamial.


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## alibaz

N


cb4 said:


> Did we actually import this heli?
> Its pretty small and i'm sure we can make it on our own....



Yep we import it and may be we can make it too if needed but we lost two pilots as well.


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## Blackpearl

Schwizer 269C or TH-300C is a training helo of Army, and it is not used by any other Force (Navy or PAF), its a low cost type helo, fitted with piston engine (actually it is a mushak engine with some mods), it has limited range, ceiling and endurance, best for flying training, Army has some 20 or so such helos, but do not require more, so there is no need to have a production line....

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## Jango



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## Jango




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## Zarvan

nuclearpak said:


>


Pakistan needs to increase its Transport Helicopters as well as attack ones and should now start producing on its own


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## Imran Khan



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## Jango

You have to say, these AW139's are really beautiful!!!


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## Blackpearl

AW139 are working as limousines for our worthy ministers

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## Jango

There is only one for VIP duties, others are SAR.


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## Saquib

Right now if Pakistan Government approached Italian Government ordered these helicopters and built some them under licence from AugustaWestland, they are expensive, but with Euro crisis in Italy this would help Italian industries and be a great advantage right now for Pak army

My personal selection:

AgustaWestland AW101 -medium-lift helicopter replaces the Puma and MIs

AgustaWestland AW149 - medium-lift military helicopter - replaces all the Bells

AgustaWestland AW109

NHIndustries NH90- for Special forces and Combat Search and Rescue

A-129CBT Mangusta -replaces the Cobras


I keep saying invest in self reliance and we won't have to worry about sanctions.


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## Imran Khan

Mi-17-1V Registration AP-BGX for Government of Punjab

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> Mi-17-1V Registration AP-BGX for Government of Punjab



parked in snow!?


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> parked in snow!?



parked in russia sir page never show location .

Helicopter-DataBase - Photo 7627

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## Jango

This aircraft was in RUssia (Kazan probably), for maintenance/overhaul. Required after 1500 hours i think.

There was a little issue b/w Punjab and Federal, because this heli was in Russia for overhaul, the Punjab Govt. had no heli, and requested the federal government to hand them one, but they refused!


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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> this is one of my favorite image


same as elephant walk







Nishan_101 said:


> I think PAC has the ability to build helis like Lama which are much better than that and will be cheaper too. Just add some sensors and a SNIPER on board at read than we can do many things even in place like Siachin as well.[/QUOT]
> i don't think so
> 
> 
> 
> cb4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did we actually import this heli?
> Its pretty small and i'm sure we can make it on our own....
> 
> 
> 
> yeh we import them in past
> i even saw these heli in 2000 when i was student at qasim base aviation school
Click to expand...


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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> This aircraft was in RUssia (Kazan probably), for maintenance/overhaul. Required after 1500 hours i think.
> 
> There was a little issue b/w Punjab and Federal, because this heli was in Russia for overhaul, the Punjab Govt. had no heli, and requested the federal government to hand them one, but they refused!



I think MI-17 of Punjab govt. was purchased by the then provincial govt of Musharraf era, and all the expanses on maintenance are to be borne by Punjab govt. On the other hand, Fed govt does not have any private heli (registered with CAA), but they hav a squadron run By Army, therefore, no heli can be given by fed govt.


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## Jango

They didn't ask the federal government for borrowing, rather a lease from a third party, for which they had to get approval from the federal government, which they refused. The reason in public was that every province will ask for a lease in that case. 

Sindh government has bought or in the process of buying a new executive jet, of absolutely no need. That is another topic though.


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## Last Hope

*Pakistan Army Aviation got these AS550 C3 FENNEC. The last I know, the pilot and co-pilot in this video are in Pakistan for training purposes.*

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## krash

Last Hope said:


> *Pakistan Army Aviation got these AS550 C3 FENNEC. The last I know, the pilot and co-pilot in this video are in Pakistan for training purposes.*



Isn't that our roundel?


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## Last Hope

krash said:


> Isn't that our roundel?


That is our helicopter under tests and trails.
Our roundel, our camouflage with standard 'ARMY' written on tail.

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## Fieldmarshal

that test and trial failed when conducted by PAA.
So we never procured them in 09/10


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## TOPGUN

How many did we order ? or a order hasn't been placed yet since test are going on?


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> How many did we order ? or a order hasn't been placed yet since test are going on?



10 have been delivered - i lost due to attrition.

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## DANGER-ZONE

*AS550 C3 Fennec in Belgium. Equipment 20mm Gun Pod NEXTER ; Flir. (Photo: Eurocopter/Céline SIMONPAOLI)*






*AS550 C3 Fennec, equipment CHMP 400 LCC Heavy Machine Pod Links and Cases Collector ; Flir. (Photo: eurocopter/Céline SIMONPAOLI)*






*AS550 C3 Fennec in Aix-en-Provence (France). (Photo: Eurocopter/Jérome DEULIN)*






*AS550 C3 Fennec armed. (Photo: eurocopter/Anthony PECCHI)*

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## Jango

I have a model of this, when the Eurocopter representatives came, they gave little memos and and all that. Will post a pic later.

These helis are a good substitute to old Jet Rangers for recce. 

BTW, which group are these in? 404 or 202?


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## fatman17

nice work DZ!

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## DANGER-ZONE

*Mi-171 Pakistan Army. (Photo: Ulan-Ude aviation plant)*

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## Fieldmarshal

fatman17 said:


> 10 have been delivered - i lost due to attrition.



We *"never"* procured *AS550 C3 Fennec*. that deal was scrapped and a very senior officer got court martial-ed as result of that.
wt we did procure were the *AS350 Ecureuil*. 
The difference between the two is that ecureuill is the unarmed version of fennec.
So PAA current fleet consists of AS350 Ecureuill helicopters. Of which one we lost recently


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## alimobin memon

Fieldmarshal said:


> that test and trial failed when conducted by PAA.
> So we never procured them in 09/10


According to flight global we have 20 of them.


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## Nishan_101

I think PAC should make some new facility to make Helicopters with Chinese in a JV like EH-101, Bell-412 and Bell-407 class but with new technology. Like: Counter rotating rotors and composites.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Fieldmarshal said:


> We *"never"* procured *AS550 C3 Fennec*. that deal was scrapped and a very senior officer got court martial-ed as result of that.
> wt we did procure were the *AS350 Ecureuil*.
> The difference between the two is that ecureuill is the unarmed version of fennec.
> So PAA current fleet consists of AS350 Ecureuill helicopters. Of which one we lost recently



I agree that there was something fishy about the deal and AFM reported that PA did not liked or rejected this specific Version but Two or three days ago one of my Friend has spotted that JUNGLE CAMEO Ecureuil but had no Weapons carrying arms, though they are de-attachable, in Isl-Rwp.


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## fatman17

aray bhai
10 Ecureuil and 6 Fennec's are in service with 1 attrition of the Ecureuil.


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## Jango

Where are the jungle camo's one based??


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## alimobin memon

Guys what the hell man we have them 20 of them !!


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## Fieldmarshal

I repeat
as of right now *"we have no fennecs in service"*.
and this info is not from some magazine, it is the ground reality that i have stated above.


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## surya kiran

Why does it have a FLIR above and not below? Any particular advantage? Is it to hide behind the tree-line or something like that?


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## Last Hope

Fieldmarshal said:


> I repeat
> as of right now *"we have no fennecs in service"*.
> and this info is not from some magazine, it is the ground reality that i have stated above.



We *MAY* have *NO* AS-550 in* SERVICE *but we* DO* have them in Pakistan under training and integration process.


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## alimobin memon

Fieldmarshal said:


> I repeat
> as of right now *"we have no fennecs in service"*.
> and this info is not from some magazine, it is the ground reality that i have stated above.



We have 15 atleast bhai kahan se aya hain jo itna confirm bol raha hai!!


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## 3xample001

is the HQ in Rawalpindi still there?

I've been to the one in Islamabad many times


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## Jango

3xample001 said:


> is the HQ in Rawalpindi still there?
> 
> I've been to the one in Islamabad many times



GHQ?

Yup, it's still there as before!

The plans for Islamabad GHQ have been shelved for sometime now.


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## Imran Khan




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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


>



When was this picture taken?

There were some Mi-17's of PAA that went to UN mission, and when they came back, they were not painted back into Army camo for sometime because of various reasons. And that was some years ago. Seeing the devastation at the background, i reckon this is flood time. So quite some time they have not been painted back.


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## razgriz19

Fieldmarshal said:


> I repeat
> as of right now *"we have no fennecs in service"*.
> and this info is not from some magazine, it is the ground reality that i have stated above.



self deleted


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## Nishan_101

I think in between 2003-2008 when we had a good deal of money the three forces should have bought a deal of equipment from other countries like: 
*for Army*
50-70 Mi-17 V5s(which we bought in very small numbers) to replace old ones that can be sold to other countries.
30-50 EH-101
70 Bell-412/Lynx
70 Bell-407/AS550

*for PAF*
21 Mi-17V5s
11 Bell-412/Lynx
11 Bell-407/AS550

*for PN*
21 EH-101
21 Z-9PN
11 Bell-407/AS550

These could be license produced if they are interested at PAC.


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## Nishan_101

So what do you think?


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## Last Hope

Nishan_101 said:


> So what do you think?


What I think is, without any offence, you always exaggerate the amount. We must be practical due to financial restrictions. The last such post said PAF must have atleast 330 JF-17s.

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## Nishan_101

I wished and everyone else too. As we have planned but the GoP is not providing the Financial assistance as PAF is the force of any other country. May ALLAH bless them with minds that have ALLAH's fear, to all of us. Ameen


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## fatman17

*Pakistan's Army Aviation* 

By John Fricker

The third and final part of AIR INTERNATIONAL&#8217;S review of Pakistan&#8217;s aviation forces looks at the Army&#8217;s air element. 

PAKISTAN Army Aviation (PAA) dates back to August 1947, when the division of the former British India resources between the emergent states on the sub-Continent at the time of Partition resulted in the transfer of four recently- received ex-RAF Auster Mk 5 and seven Mk 6 lightplanes and spares. These were accompanied by only a small amount of support equipment from one of the two former Indian Air Force Air Observation Flights, and were used to form No 1 AOP Flight in the newly born RPAF, which also set up a training programme for army aviators, alongside its own students, and retained this responsibility until 1956. 

For the first few years of Pakistan&#8217;s existence, the Army&#8217;s air Observation Flights remained under RPAF supervision, including training and maintenance responsibilities, with further deliveries of Auster Mk 5s and 6s eventually totalling some 46 aircraft, as well as 17 Auster J/ 5F Aiglet Trainers for joint service instruction. It was not until the signing of an aid agreement with the US in May 1954, however, as a prelude to Pakistani participation in the CENTO and SEATO pacts, and the arrival of American defence equipment and training aid from a US Military Advisory Group, that the PAA began to emerge as a significant force. 

Complete autonomy, however, was not achieved until 1958, about a year after delivery of some 60 Cessna O-1 Bird Dog liaison aircraft to equip two squadrons and begin replacing the Auster AOP. 6s and T.7s then operated, which allowed PakArmy Aviation to emerge as a new and discrete organization within Pakistan&#8217;s armed forces. Its reorganization included the transfer of maintenance responsibility for its own aircraft for the PAF and, after a number of Pak Army pilots had been trained in the US, the formation of and Army Aviation School for further student instruction in January 1959. 

In 1963, the first PAA helicopter began training in the US, returning the following year with some 18 Bell 47G/OH-13s supplied under Mutual Aid, allowing the formation of several composite squadrons, equipped with both fixed and rotary-winged aircraft. The PAA then experienced its operational debut during the 1965 war with India, in which apart from routine artillery spotting and liaison duties, some of its Cessna0-1s were fitted with special UHF radios to act as airborne Air Contact Teams, and direct air strikes on targets beyond the visual range of ground-based ACTs. Some useful results were achieved despite the fact that PAF had previously assumed that it would have little or no effort to spare for close-support missions. 

For a more versatile helicopter, PAA turned in 1968 to Aerospatiale with an initial order for a batch of some 24 Alouette IIIs, both as completed aircraft direct from the manufacturers, and later for kits of knocked-down parts for assembly by the army itself. Development of a repair and production facility was part of a plan to build up an Army Aviation Centre at the former Second World War airfield of Dhamial, near Rawalpindi, where licensed production of Alouette III for the Pakistan Air Force and Navy, as well as for Army requirements, was then undertaken by 503 Workshop, together with the assembly of Cessna O-1s at the rate of one per month from 60 percent indigenous parts. Dhamial was also to become the site of Pakistan Army&#8217;s Aviation School, to provide ab initio and transition training for all fixed-wing and helicopter pilots, together with a later establishment of five operational and support squadrons. 

For heavier helicopter transport and supply, the Pakistan Army turned to the USSR in the late 1960s, despite an unfavourable evaluation by the PAF of a Mil Mi-6 Hook heavy-lift helicopter which it scrapped without ever putting into service. In 1969, the PAA took delivery, together with other military material, of the first of about a dozen Mil Mi-8 Hip medium-lift twin turbine helicopter from the USSR, to equip No 4 Squadron at Dhamial, which also has a detachment at Rahwali. Powered by two 1,950 shp Isotov TV-2 117A turboshafts, the Mi-8 proved capable of lifting 8,820 lb (4,000 kg) internally or 6,614 lb (3,000kg) from its external cargo hook, and its near clamshell door allows rapid cargo loading and vehicular or artillery access. 

In PAA service, the big Soviet utility helicopter has proven &#8216;fairly reliable&#8217;, in its all- weather supply role, with the assistance of a good autopilot for IFR operations, in Pakistan&#8217;s northern mountainous areas. While its sturdy construction has minimised maintenance requirements, however, the relatively short component lives of the Mi-8 - typical of most Soviet aircraft - placed great reliance on good spares supplies, which unfortunately proved unequal to the task of attaining acceptable serviceability rates. Progressive cannibalisation failed to prevent Pakistan&#8217;s Mi-8s from eventually becoming grounded for some years, and it was not until the necessary spares were obtained from China in the late 1980s that their operations could be fully resumed. PAA has undertaken for many years most of its own airframe, engine and transmission overhauls for all its weather types, however, as well as for the Allouettes of the PAF and the Pakistan Navy. 

Several PAA Mi-8s and Alouette IIIs played a major part in the rescue operations in what was then East Pakistan following the flood disasters there in early 1971. These aircraft then went on in December of that year to undertake limited operations in the unsuccessful war with India, resulting in the emergence from East Pakistan of the independent Bengali state of Bangladesh, before being evacuated via Burma after the cease-fire on 17 December. 

In Western Pakistan, many of the PAA&#8217;s inventory of about 90 aircraft of all types were active along almost the entire battlefront in their normal role of artillery spotting, battlefield surveillance, forward air control and reconnaissance. Squadrons were deployed with each Corps and allocated to sub-formations, being augmented for support duties by a number of impressed flying club and charter aircraft. These were hurriedly given a coat of desert camouflage and military markings for the duration, although several remained in army service for some time afterwards, and included the Cessna 172s, and Skymasters, as well as the DHC Beavers of Plant Protection Ltd, and several other light planes. Two PAA artillery-spotting and reconnaissance Cessna O-1s were blasted out of the sky during the 1971 war by the 30mm ADEN cannon of marauding Indian Hawker Hunters over the battlefield. 

Although further PAA expansion was limited by funding problems and restrictions on additional US aid, evaluation of several foreign light aircraft and included the (then) Scottish Aviation Bulldog and SOCATA Rallye-Minerva. This resulted in selection of the SAAB/ MFI-17s from Sweden, of which 115 were for military use, comprising 23 in completed form and 92 assembled at Risalpur from knocked-down kits under the local name of Mushshak between 1975-81, for both the PAF and Army Aviation. This was followed by the subsequent transfer of the entire MFI-17 production line from Sweden to Pakistan, where licenced production began at the new Kamra Aeronautical Complex in 1983. February 1991, saw the 100th Mushshak being delivered from Kamra of 190 now on order, including 25 for Iran, and some 115 for PAA. One Mushshak has been converted to Shahbaaz standard with turbo-supercharged Continental TSIO-360 engine with up to 100 new-build or conversions anticipated to follow, mostly for PAA use, although none have appeared to date. 

During the 1973 floods in Sind and Punjab, PAA received six Bell UH-1H Iroquois helicopters from the US, with specific restrictions on use to humanitarian operations, and these have since been operated by No 6 Squadron from Dhamial. In 1974-75, the Iroquois were supplemented by a further ten similar Agusta-Bell 205A-1s presented by Iran, to complete the equipment of the Pakistan government&#8217;s Emergency Relief Cell (ERC), which is PAA-flown and maintained, as a national disaster force. Not all these helicopters are operated at any one time, however, seven being in storage during the early 1980s. Other PAA-operated Bell helicopters include a dozen 206B JetRanger IIIs in 1981, and used for training and scout roles, as well as by Pakistan&#8217;s Coast Guard service and the Frontier Corps for border patrols. 

Additional expansion of PAA&#8217;s helicopter force allowed a 1976 order for 32 Aerospatiale SA330J Pumas, used mainly for transport and assault roles by two squadrons (Nos 21 and 24 from Multan, the former unit also having one or two Bell UH-Hs), plus No 25 Sqn based at Dhamial. This last unit also has a detachment at Gilgit, in Pakistan&#8217;s Karakoram range of the Western Himalayas, which reaches heights of up to the 28,660 ft in Nanga Parbat- the world&#8217;s third-highest mountain peak. Nearby Skardu, another mountain village, is the base for a detachment of two or three Aerospatiale SA315B Lama high-altitude utility helicopters from at least six delivered from CNAIR in Romania to equip No 8 Sqn, together with several Alouette IIIs, at Dhamial in 1987. The Lamas followed the 1883 delivery of four more Alouettes from Romanian construction, but a 1986 requirement for IAR-built SA330J Pumas appeared to result only in receipts of Puma and Alouette III spares from Romania in 1987. 

Long standing PAA interest in attack helicopters in the early-1980s to improve its close-support capability resulted in orders for 20 Bell AH-1S Cobra gunships in two batches through US Foreign Military Sales funding. The first ten were delivered in late 1984 and officially entered service in during March 1985, followed by the second ten in early-1986. The BGM-71 TOW missile-armed Cobras now equip No 31 and 32 anti-tank Squadrons at Multan, each unit also having one or two Bell 206Bs for scout and liaison roles. A PAA requirement for another 20 Cobras was due to be partly-met by an FMS offer for ten AH-I Fs costing $89 million (including more TOWs) in early 1990, but all US military aid to Pakistan was suspended later that year by Congress because of that country&#8217;s suspected nuclear weapons development programme. 

This suspension also appears to have ended earlier PAA plans for licenced production of 75-100 armed scout/liaison and training helicopters at Kamra Aeronautical Complex, for which the Aerospatiale SA342 Gazelle and MBB BO105LS were evaluated in 1986. Initial procurement in this category was then expected to be ten Bell M206Bs costing $12 million in 1990, followed by about 42 more at a later date, but this requirement seems currently destined to remain unfulfilled. 

For fixed wing communications, PAA has operated small numbers of Beech U-8F Seminole, Cessna 421 and Turbo Commander 690 light twins. The last-mentioned was delivered in March 1981, and was joined in January 1985 by a Single Commander SMA Jetprop 840 equipped for photo-mapping and operated on behalf of the Surveyor-General, and these types, together with a single Puma helicopter, are now operated at Dhamial-based VIP Flight of the PAA. Medical evacuation requirements were at one time intended to be met by 24 Reims-Cessna FTB337 twin-boom light-twins for which an order was reportedly negotiated with France in mid-1980, but these aircraft never materialised. 

As currently organised, PAA operates some 15 squadrons, including those already listed, five of the remainder being nominated as Composite Squadrons, comprising No 2 at Lahore; No 3, Multan; No 7, Share Faisal (Karachi); No 9, Peshawar; and No 13, Dhamial, each with small numbers of Cessna O-1s and Mushshak fixed-wing liaison aircraft. Two of these units also operate few helicopters, comprising No 2 Sqn with UH-1Hs and No 9 with Alouette IIIs. There is also a single PAA squadron (No 5), which operates only Alouette IIIs from Dhamial. 

Apart from PAA fixed-wing primary training, the Army Aviation School, which moved from Dhamial to Rahwali in 1988, provides helicopter crews for all three services. The ab initio flying course of 44 weeks comprises some 200 hours on the Mushshak, followed by about 90 hours of basic flying instruction on the Cessna O-1, the latter including emphasis of flying at minimum altitudes for tactical evasion, and on short-strip take-offs and landings. Helicopter conversion comprises 50-60 hours in 14 weeks on Bell 47Gs and newer JetRangers, and a similar advanced course on Alouette IIIs. Retirement is planned in the near future for PAA&#8217;s veteran Bell 47G/OH-13s, and evaluations have been made of such types as the Schweitzer HC-300, but no funding has yet been made available. Transition training as co-pilot on Mi-8s or Pumas starts on squadron aircraft detached in pairs to the PAA School at Rahwali, continuing with operational helicopter units, and includes extensive flying in and around the Karakoram mountain chain. A minimum 40-50 hours as co-pilot precedes qualification as an aircraft commander, and all PAA aircrews are trained to be completely type interchangeable. Helicopter instructions are trained at Rahwali in a 14-week/6-hour course, but fixed wing instructors attend the PAF&#8217;s Flight Instructor School at Risalpur, from where some PAA Mushshaks operate, to receive categorisation. A Hughes 500E flown in PAA markings is actually assigned to Pakistan&#8217;s renowned Inter-Services Intelligence department (IST), which played a major part in co-ordinating and channeling the supply of US and Saudi-funded weapons and military equipment to rebel mujahideen guerillas in their decade-long campaign against the government in Afghanistan. 

Aircraft technicians have been trained by the Army Aviation Engineering School, at Dhamial, since its formation in 1974, while at the same base, the 199th Aviation Engineering battalion augments overhaul and repair functions of the mainly O-1 and Alouette-oriented 503 Workshop. The PAF still keeps a fatherly eye on army maintenance through a quality control group, but the PAA has now achieved a substantial degree of autonomy of its ever increasing air operations. 



_interesting information from an old article!_

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## Imran Khan



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## Imran Khan



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## Jango

When did the Frontier Scouts get Ecueril?


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> When did the Frontier Scouts get Ecueril?



After GOP ay money for these choppers


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> After GOP ay money for these choppers



I can't quite find the registration of this heli?

Could you find one? Is it military or civil registered?

Money through MoI or some other place.


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> I can't quite find the registration of this heli?
> 
> Could you find one? Is it military or civil registered?
> 
> Money through MoI or some other place.



these were under FC bro but renamed after NWFP become KPK .












crash was happen last year i think and pilot was injured very badly look vey painful images


http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/538611_458216620857163_1405904238_n.jpg

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/178964_458217847523707_374968962_n.jpg


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## Jango

Frontier Corps(N.W.F.P) Helicopter Ecureuil - YouTube

How many are in service with them currently?


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## Nishan_101

Imran Khan said:


> these were under FC bro but renamed after NWFP become KPK .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crash was happen last year i think and pilot was injured very badly look vey painful images
> 
> 
> http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/538611_458216620857163_1405904238_n.jpg
> 
> http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/178964_458217847523707_374968962_n.jpg



I think it was far better for the PA as well as for Paramilitary force to get Z-9s rather than this and Bell-412.
Harbin Z-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Jango

This isn't a Bell 412, this is a A350 Ecureuil.


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## Imran Khan




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## Nishan_101

Brothers, I think PA haven't made a right decision like they had some money 7-8 years back and they can order 70 Mi-17 V5 from Russia without avionics and put Chinese, Indigenous as well as some from EU to replace the old ones and more over look towards 30-41 additional AC313 from China by 2013.
More over they should try to order 50-70 Bell-412/Lynx and 50 Bell-407s


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## Imran Khan



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## batmannow

Mil Mi-35 Night Attack Gunship Helicopter - Russian Air Force (HD) - HIGH QUALITY - YouTube
how about these beasts?

New-2009 - Russian Attack Helicopter Ka-50 Black Shark vs Mil Mi-28 Havoc - HD - YouTube
or how about these?

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## Imran Khan

batmannow said:


> Mil Mi-35 Night Attack Gunship Helicopter - Russian Air Force (HD) - HIGH QUALITY - YouTube
> how about these beasts?



no thanks to junk 

WE HAVE MANY OPTIONS 

T-139 - Eurocopter Tiger -CAIC WZ-10 - Denel AH-2 Rooivalk


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## batmannow

10 Best Attack Helicopters in the World - 2010 - YouTube

select what you think best?


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## batmannow

Military Channel - Top 10 Helicopters pt 1 - YouTube
with more pro-summry!

Military Channel - Top 10 Helicopters pt 2 - YouTube

Military Channel - Top 10 Helicopters pt 3 - YouTube

Military Channel - Top 10 Helicopters pt 4 - YouTube

Military Channel - Top 10 Helicopters pt 5 - YouTube
just making this thread special!



Imran Khan said:


> no thanks to junk
> 
> WE HAVE MANY OPTIONS
> 
> T-139 - Eurocopter Tiger -CAIC WZ-10 - Denel AH-2 Rooivalk


sweet dreams! with PPP !!!!


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## VelocuR

Serious, Pakistan Army's Helicopters working to seed on the farm field ?? We can use low flying helicopter to farm, see below.
















Helicopter Low Level Spraying GoPro - YouTube


We have no money?


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## Jango

This is not farming or seeding.

This is fire-fighting. The bucket is a Bambi bucket. used for fire-fighting


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## Jango



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## Jango

Some of my photos of the model i have.


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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


>



what he is trying to prove!!

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## Imran Khan

Blackpearl said:


> what he is trying to prove!!



fun time 

what you know abut working far away form country family and in war zone? i was happy to see him as he look fit and happy in UN mission .

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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> what he is trying to prove!!



he is a paradiver!!!!


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> he is a paradiver!!!!



Sorry, he is not. He is the pilot of the Mi-17, just posing, jumping from a landed chopper.


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## Solomon2

Wiki says PAC has 40 gunships and 93 transports, Irfan Baluch says that's out of date. Can anybody post a current order-of-battle for the PAC?


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Sorry, he is not. He is the pilot of the Mi-17, just posing, jumping from a landed chopper.



I know that he is a pilot of Mi-17.

blackpearl asked 'what is he trying to prove', and i jokingly said 'he is a paradiver'.

People other than you also know some things.



Solomon2 said:


> Wiki says PAC has 40 gunships and 93 transports, Irfan Baluch says that's out of date. Can anybody post a current order-of-battle for the PAC?



Around 35 are in the current inventory AFAIK, and the transport number is around the 80 figure as well, combining the Mi-17's, and Pumas AFAIK.

Not confirmed though. I have not been able to keep check of the latest deals/procurement.

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## fatman17

Thursday, June 28, 2012

*United Technologies aided China's military helicopter*


United Technologies aided China's military helicopter | Reuters 

WASHINGTON, June 28 | Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:19pm IST (Reuters) - United Technologies Corp and two of its subsidiaries sold China software enabling Chinese authorities to develop and produce their first modern military attack helicopter, U.S. authorities said on Thursday.

At a federal court hearing in Bridgeport, Connecticut, United Technologies and its two subsidiaries, Pratt & Whitney Canada and Hamilton Sundstrand Corporation, agreed to pay more than $75 million to the U.S. government to settle criminal and administrative charges related to the sales. As part of the settlement, Pratt & Whitney Canada agreed to plead guilty to two federal criminal charges - violating a U.S. export control law and making false statements.

The charges were in connection with the export to China of U.S.-origin military software used in Pratt & Whitney Canada engines, which was used to test and develop China's Z-10 helicopter. Tuesday, February 21, 2012


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## Mani2020

Not many know that Pakistan ordered specially modified 2 Beechcraft King air 350 aircrafts for SIGINT & ISR purpose , to be operated by Pakistan army aviation wing 
These aircrafts have serial numbers 

Beech 350 c/n FL-303 N551TP 
Beech 350 c/n FL-365 N350RD 

And here are the pics of them

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## alimobin memon

nuclearpak said:


> I know that he is a pilot of Mi-17.
> 
> blackpearl asked 'what is he trying to prove', and i jokingly said 'he is a paradiver'.
> 
> People other than you also know some things.
> 
> 
> 
> Around 35 are in the current inventory AFAIK, and the transport number is around the 80 figure as well, combining the Mi-17's, and Pumas AFAIK.
> 
> Not confirmed though. I have not been able to keep check of the latest deals/procurement.



PAC stands for ?


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## Nishan_101

Mani2020 said:


> Not many know that Pakistan ordered specially modified 2 Beechcraft King air 350 aircrafts for SIGINT & ISR purpose , to be operated by Pakistan army aviation wing
> These aircrafts have serial numbers
> 
> Beech 350 c/n FL-303 N551TP
> Beech 350 c/n FL-365 N350RD
> 
> And here are the pics of them


 
Saab-2000 SIGNIT can be a much better choice and getting 3 of these would have really made a big difference to the capability as similar system is present in PAF.


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## Arsalan

alimobin memon said:


> PAC stands for ?



PAC is Pakistan Aeronautical Complex
Situated in Kamra, PAC is responsible for maintenance and over hauling of our Mirage and F-7 fleet. the Mirage ROSE upgrades (ROSE I, II and III), the maintenance of F-16 and its engines, and now, the latest, *production of JF-17 thunder*

regards!


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## DANGER-ZONE

Mani2020 said:


> Not many know that Pakistan ordered specially modified 2 Beechcraft King air 350 aircrafts for SIGINT & ISR purpose , to be operated by Pakistan army aviation wing
> These aircrafts have serial numbers
> 
> Beech 350 c/n FL-303 N551TP
> Beech 350 c/n FL-365 N350RD
> 
> And here are the pics of them



Ya i Remembered that and i thought because of US-PAK current relations / affairs the deal would have been scraped. 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...acquiring-two-king-air-350-isr-aircrafts.html


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## alimobin memon

arsalanaslam123 said:


> PAC is Pakistan Aeronautical Complex
> Situated in Kamra, PAC is responsible for maintenance and over hauling of our Mirage and F-7 fleet. the Mirage ROSE upgrades (ROSE I, II and III), the maintenance of F-16 and its engines, and now, the latest, *production of JF-17 thunder*
> 
> regards!



I know that thanks but I am confused, why the guy is sayng PAC has 40 attack heli that's why I said , Our Army Aviation has almost 420 Heli's in total.


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## Jango

The registration is still civilian and of US, indicating that it is not in our custody?



alimobin memon said:


> PAC stands for ?





You quoted the wrong post. Solomon said PAC, not me. 

Arslanaslam123 has given the answer


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## Imran Khan



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## TOPGUN

Mani2020 said:


> Not many know that Pakistan ordered specially modified 2 Beechcraft King air 350 aircrafts for SIGINT & ISR purpose , to be operated by Pakistan army aviation wing
> These aircrafts have serial numbers
> 
> Beech 350 c/n FL-303 N551TP
> Beech 350 c/n FL-365 N3
> 
> And here are the pics of them




I do rem this however , can someone shine some light on the issue perhaps fatman? do we have these with PA ?

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## Last Hope

I don't think that currently the PAAC (Pak Army Aviation Corps) have them.


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> I do rem this however , can someone shine some light on the issue perhaps fatman? do we have these with PA ?



yep both delivered - ISR aircraft. a 3rd example has also been requested.

one can cleary see the temp serial no's on the a/c.

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## fatman17

6 pilots were also sent to the US for 'special training' to operate these a/c.

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## fatman17

*WZ-10 Attack Helicopter*

The primary mission for the treetop hugging WZ-10 is battlefield interdiction, eliminating the enemy ground fixed and mobile forces, and concurrently certain air combat ability. The WZ-10 (Wuzhuang Zhisheng-10) is generally similar to the South African Rooviak and Italian Agusta A129. The PLA Army Aviation long lacked an attack helicopter such as the AH-64 Apache or Mi-28 Havoc. The limited attack helicopter force consisted of 30-40 Z-9Ws and 8 SA-342L Gazelles, along with 60 Mi-17 Hips with unguided rocket launchers. Prior to the WZ-10 China had yet to produce an indigenously designed helicopter. The WZ-10 is thus a bellwether of the improvements in China's helicopter design and production capabilities. Although the helicopter might still not be as capable as the U.S. AH-64 Apache, it will probably play a significant role in Army Aviation modernisation and force compabilities.

Development of a dedicated attack helicopter began in the mid-1990s at the 602 Institute and Changhe Aircraft Industry Company (CHAIC) in Jingdezhen, Jiangxi Province. According to another report, the PLA orignally selected the the MI-35 but chose the Rranco-German Tiger as the source of emulation. Around 1991-92 the PLA leased a single Pakistani AH-1 for technical evaluation. The WZ-10 attack helicopter suffered several delays due to engine related troubles, and finally flew for the first time on 29 April 2003.

The helicopter's net weight is approximately 5,500 kilograms. The helicopter approximate length is 14 meters, is 3.8 meters high, and is roughly 4.3 meters at its widest point. The main rotar consists of 4 blades made up of a compound material. The diameter of the blades is approximately 12 meters length. 

Initially the WZ-10 prototypes were powered by Canadian PT6C-76C engines but the production version are likely to use the WZ-9 engines. At one time the WZ-10 was believed to have two European MTR 390 turboshafts, though this now appears in error. Initially there was speculation that the design used the power plant and transmission derived from the Harbin Z-9, with the fuselage modified to accommodate two pilots. However, over time it became clear that the WZ-10 was the military componment of the Chinese Medium Helicopter [CMH], and thus shared a common power train with the Z-15 [AC352].

Two wings along the fuselage that are roughly 4.32 meters long may carry 1,500 kilograms of munitions, including a 57.0 mm multibarrel rockets, the red arrow anti-tank missile. A 23 mm machine gun is fixed to the cabin at the front of the helicopter. The helicopter can carry up to 8 ATGMs, or IR-guided short-range AAMs. 

The navigation and avionics are probably from domestic sources. The WZ-10 is equipped with FLIR thus allowing an operations in all weather. The navigation system consists of radioaltimeter, doppler radar and GPS. The fire control system is similar to the French Starry Night digital integration design. Reports indicate that the WZ-10 has an optics system that relays sensor information to the pilots helmets; essentially a system similar to the US Integrated Helmet and Display Sighting System (IHADSS). The helmet system also controls the direction that the machine gun is aiming. This allows the pilots to have an improved situation awareness as they can monitor flight systems and observe the terrain.

The WZ-10 has a non-traditional [for China] design that uses composite and radar absorbant materials. The WZ-10 is equipped with radar warning systems and with systems that will alert the crew that it has been targetted with laser range finders. The helicopter is also equipped with passive countermeasures and in an effort to reduce fratricide is equipped with IFF. The WZ-10 has modified engine exhausts to reduce IR signature of the helicopter. The cabin's bulletproof glass may resist 7.62 millimeter ammunition and composite armor under the cabin resists 12.7 millimeters machine gun fires. The cabin is equipped to maximize fire protection and thw WZ-10 is also outfitted with ejection seats similar to the Ka-50.

Future upgrades to the WZ-10A will likely include new a radar, fire control systems, infrared exhaust suppression and the ability to be flown from naval vessels. Future upgrades to the WZ-10 may include sensor package carried on the Z-11 light helicopter that will improve target acquisition. 

By 2012 the Z-10 helicopter was in production and initial batches were delivered to the People&#65533;s Liberation Army of China in 2009 and 2010. The primary mission of the Z-10 is anti-armor and battlefield interdiction. Weapons of the Z-10 have included 30-mm cannons, anti-tank guided missiles, air-to-air missiles and unguided rockets.

On June 28, 2012 Pratt & Whitney Canada Corp. (PWC), a Canadian subsidiary of the Connecticut-based defense contractor United Technologies Corporation (UTC), pled guilty to violating the Arms Export Control Act and making false statements in connection with its illegal export to China of U.S.-origin military software used in the development of China&#65533;s first modern military attack helicopter, the Z-10. In addition, UTC, its U.S.-based subsidiary Hamilton Sundstrand Corporation (HSC), and PWC all agreed to pay more than $75 million as part of a global settlement with the US Justice Department and State Department in connection with the China arms export violations and for making false and belated disclosures to the U.S. government about these illegal exports. 

Since 1989, the United States has imposed a prohibition upon the export to China of all U.S. defense articles and associated technical data as a result of the conduct in June 1989 at Tiananmen Square by the military of the People&#65533;s Republic of China. In February 1990, the U.S. Congress imposed a prohibition upon licenses or approvals for the export of defense articles to the People&#65533;s Republic of China. In codifying the embargo, Congress specifically named helicopters for inclusion in the ban.

Dating back to the 1980s, China sought to develop a military attack helicopter. Beginning in the 1990s, after Congress had imposed the prohibition on exports to China, China sought to develop its attack helicopter under the guise of a civilian medium helicopter program in order to secure Western assistance. The Z-10, developed with assistance from Western suppliers, is China&#65533;s first modern military attack helicopter. During the development phases of China&#65533;s Z-10 program, each Z-10 helicopter was powered by engines supplied by PWC. PWC delivered 10 of these development engines to China in 2001 and 2002. Despite the military nature of the Z-10 helicopter, PWC determined on its own that these development engines for the Z-10 did not constitute &#65533;defense articles&#65533; requiring a U.S. export license, because they were identical to those engines PWC was already supplying China for a commercial helicopter.

Because the Electronic Engine Control software, made by HSC in the United States to test and operate the PWC engines, was modified for a military helicopter application, it was a defense article and required a U.S. export license. Still, PWC knowingly and willfully caused this software to be exported to China for the Z-10 without any U.S. export license. In 2002 and 2003, PWC caused six versions of the military software to be illegally exported from HSC in the United States to PWC in Canada and then to China, where it was used in the PWC engines for the Z-10.

PWC knew from the start of the Z-10 project in 2000 that the Chinese were developing an attack helicopter and that supplying it with U.S.-origin components would be illegal. When the Chinese claimed that a civil version of the helicopter would be developed in parallel, PWC marketing personnel expressed skepticism internally about the &#65533;sudden appearance&#65533; of the civil program, the timing of which they questioned as &#65533;real or imagined.&#65533; PWC nevertheless saw an opening for PWC &#65533;to insist on exclusivity in [the] civil version of this helicopter&#65533; and stated that the Chinese would &#65533;no longer make reference to the military program.&#65533; PWC failed to notify UTC or HSC about the attack helicopter until years later and purposely turned a blind eye to the helicopter&#65533;s military application.

HSC in the United States had believed it was providing its software to PWC for a civilian helicopter in China, based on claims from PWC. By early 2004, HSC learned there might be an export problem and stopped working on the Z-10 project. UTC also began to ask PWC about the exports to China for the Z-10. Regardless, PWC on its own modified the software and continued to export it to China through June 2005. PWC anticipated that its work on the Z-10 military attack helicopter in China would open the door to a far more lucrative civilian helicopter market in China, which according to PWC estimates, was potentially worth as much as $2 billion to PWC.

These companies failed to disclose to the U.S. government the illegal exports to China for several years and only did so after an investor group queried UTC in early 2006 about whether PWC&#65533;s role in China&#65533;s Z-10 attack helicopter might violate U.S. laws. The companies then made an initial disclosure to the State Department in July 2006, with follow-up submissions in August and September 2006. The 2006 disclosures contained numerous false statements. Among other things, the companies falsely asserted that they were unaware until 2003 or 2004 that the Z-10 program involved a military helicopter. In fact, by the time of the disclosures, all three companies were aware that PWC officials knew at the project&#65533;s inception in 2000 that the Z-10 program involved an attack helicopter.

PWC exported controlled U.S. technology to China, knowing it would be used in the development of a military attack helicopter in violation of the U.S. arms embargo with China. PWC took what it described internally as a &#65533;calculated risk,&#65533; because it wanted to become the exclusive supplier for a civil helicopter market in China with projected revenues of up to two billion dollars. Several years after the violations were known, UTC, HSC, and PWC disclosed the violations to the government and made false statements in doing so.


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## patricia_444

The US State Division's Pakistan Support Technique Review, released in Dec 2009, declares that the "Pakistan Army envisions obtaining 20 AH-1Z Cobras" at an predicted price of "at least USD500 thousand for the choppers alone, with a complete purchase price up to USD1 billion". The division desires that the army will search for US International Army Funding (FMF) in order to assist in the cope. ........


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## Stealth_fighter

can any one please translate the Urdu text?
http://www.madaniwallpaper.com/view-quaid_e_azam_m_a_jinnah-852x480.html


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## fatman17

patricia_444 said:


> The US State Division's Pakistan Support Technique Review, released in Dec 2009, declares that the "Pakistan Army envisions obtaining 20 AH-1Z Cobras" at an predicted price of "at least USD500 thousand for the choppers alone, with a complete purchase price up to USD1 billion". The division desires that the army will search for US International Army Funding (FMF) in order to assist in the cope. ........



500m $ was set aside in the CISF for 2013-14. lets see what happens.


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## Arsalan

Stealth_fighter said:


> can any one please translate the Urdu text?
> Quaid-e-Azam M A Jinnah







*Today Warfare is not bound by borders, be prepared mentally and defensively*
*By Quaid-e-Azam, Muhammad Ali Jinnah* 

meaning (since the word to word translations might be confusing)
In today's world, the wars and conflicts can not be held back by borders and international boundaries so one must be prepared at all time but mentally, so any aggression do not you down with a surprise, and also defensively wit a credible deterrence to deal with any aggression.



fatman17 said:


> 500m $ was set aside in the CISF for 2013-14. lets see what happens.


this means that IF we do get the AH-1Z Cobra Gunships these will be funded via CISF.

i think this is the only positive that shall make PA go for US arms. 
Sir, *what do you suggest?* Shall we go for more US arms paying from our pocket specially gunships, considering the other options that are available from much friendly sources like the Turkish T-129 and the Chinese WZ-10?

regards!

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## fatman17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> *Today Warfare is not bound by borders, be prepared mentally and defensively*
> *By Quaid-e-Azam, Muhammad Ali Jinnah*
> 
> meaning (since the word to word translations might be confusing)
> In today's world, the wars and conflicts can not be held back by borders and international boundaries so one must be prepared at all time but mentally, so any aggression do not you down with a surprise, and also defensively wit a credible deterrence to deal with any aggression.
> 
> 
> this means that IF we do get the AH-1Z Cobra Gunships these will be funded via CISF.
> 
> i think this is the only positive that shall make PA go for US arms.
> Sir, *what do you suggest?* Shall we go for more US arms paying from our pocket specially gunships, considering the other options that are available from much friendly sources like the Turkish T-129 and the Chinese WZ-10?
> 
> regards!



of the 3 the AH-1Z is the most dependable and available. T-129 is in trials and tests, and WZ-10 has engine issues. we need to replace our AH-1S/F in the next 2-3 years. the've had it.

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## fatman17

*Norinco's new Arrow hits market and hints at export drive*

Robert Hewson, Air-Launched Weapons Editor - London



Key Points
&#8226;Norinco is marketing a new air-to-surface missile intended to arm helicopters and UAVs

&#8226;The Blue Arrow 7 could represent China's first attempt to offer Chinese weapons for non-Chinese platforms on the export market 


China's Norinco is marketing a new air-to-surface missile for helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) in what may be the nation's first attempt to offer Chinese weapons for non-Chinese platforms on the export market. 

The missile, the Blue Arrow 7, was earlier identified with the designation KD-10 (or AKD-10) in China, where it was developed as the primary weapon for the Z-10 attack helicopter. It has been exhibited in China as Lan Jian 7 (Blue Arrow 7) since at least 2010, but only now is it being shown internationally with an English-language name. 

New information from Norinco shows that this same missile has been integrated with an Mi-171 helicopter of the People's Liberation Army (PLA). This indicates that China has developed an indigenous weapon and sensor package for the Mi-171: a conclusion that is supported by Norinco's addition of the Blue Arrow 7 to its export catalogue. 

The Blue Arrow 7 is a Hellfire-class battlefield missile with a semi-active laser seeker and a tandem HEAT (high-explosive anti-tank) warhead. It has an effective range of 2,000-7,000 m and can penetrate up to 14 cm of armour. Each missile weighs 47 kg, is 1.775 m long and has a diameter of 17 cm. Norinco notes that the Blue Arrow 7 is effective against tanks, other armoured vehicles and bunkers. 


Norinco has developed a four-round launcher for the Blue Arrow 7, giving a helicopter like the Mi-17 to ability to carry at least eight and perhaps 16 missiles in one load. 


Norinco has released some performance details of the associated electro-optical targeting system for the missile without identifying the precise system. The daytime (TV) detection range is 10 km and the identification range is 8 km; the night (infrared) detection range is 6 km with an identification range of 5 km. Additionally, a ground-based laser for third-party target designation is available with a maximum range of 6 km. 

Marketing material from Norinco shows the Blue Arrow 7 missile being fired from a PLA Mi-171. This is the first time a precision air-to-surface weapon has been seen on a Chinese Mi-17 variant; the type is the backbone of the PLA Army Aviation assault helicopter fleet. This also marks an important milestone for the integration of Chinese weapons on non-Chinese aircraft - something that China has previously attempted only with its own versions of Russian fighter designs, such as the J-11. 


Firing trials for the Blue Arrow 7 have included this test launch from a PLA Army Aviation Mi-171. 


Missile integration with the Mi-171 would add a new capability to the PLA but also herald a new export arena for Chinese industry. It is possible that the Blue Arrow 7/Mi-17 package is an export-driven project and China's first step into the international upgrades sector. 

The same missile has also been integrated and extensively tested on the AVIC Wing Loong (Pterodactyl) UAV. Developed by Chengdu, the Wing Loong has undertaken substantial airborne weapon trials with the KD-10/Blue Arrow 7 since it first flew in 2007. A Predator-class medium-altitude long-endurance UAV, the Wing Loong has been identified by AVIC as an export programme. Now that the development of this platform is relatively mature, an armed UAV application could equally be the first export opportunity for the Blue Arrow 7. 


_here comes the chinese 'hellfire' AGM!_

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## Imran Khan



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## surya kiran

Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. (MM), Indias biggest maker of utility vehicles, is considering bidding for Hawker Beechcraft Inc., the bankrupt aircraft maker part owned by Goldman Sachs Group Inc. (GS), a person with knowledge of the matter said. 

Mahindra Said to Consider Bidding for Hawker Beechcraft - Bloomberg

Cheers!


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

fatman17 said:


> one can cleary see the temp serial no's on the a/c.



Sirji,AFAIK these are registration numbers and not serial numbers which means it has been registered by the regulations body as a US aircraft.

N=November is the prefix which FAA uses for American aircrafts followed by digits and this prefix is given to every country by the International Telecommunication Union like for India it is Victor=V and for Germany it is Delta=D.


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## Crypto

fatman17 said:


> *Norinco's new Arrow hits market and hints at export drive*
> 
> Robert Hewson, Air-Launched Weapons Editor - London
> 
> 
> 
> Key Points
> &#8226;Norinco is marketing a new air-to-surface missile intended to arm helicopters and UAVs
> 
> &#8226;The Blue Arrow 7 could represent China's first attempt to offer Chinese weapons for non-Chinese platforms on the export market
> 
> 
> China's Norinco is marketing a new air-to-surface missile for helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) in what may be the nation's first attempt to offer Chinese weapons for non-Chinese platforms on the export market.
> 
> The missile, the Blue Arrow 7, was earlier identified with the designation KD-10 (or AKD-10) in China, where it was developed as the primary weapon for the Z-10 attack helicopter. It has been exhibited in China as Lan Jian 7 (Blue Arrow 7) since at least 2010, but only now is it being shown internationally with an English-language name.
> 
> New information from Norinco shows that this same missile has been integrated with an Mi-171 helicopter of the People's Liberation Army (PLA). This indicates that China has developed an indigenous weapon and sensor package for the Mi-171: a conclusion that is supported by Norinco's addition of the Blue Arrow 7 to its export catalogue.
> 
> The Blue Arrow 7 is a Hellfire-class battlefield missile with a semi-active laser seeker and a tandem HEAT (high-explosive anti-tank) warhead. It has an effective range of 2,000-7,000 m and can penetrate up to 14 cm of armour. Each missile weighs 47 kg, is 1.775 m long and has a diameter of 17 cm. Norinco notes that the Blue Arrow 7 is effective against tanks, other armoured vehicles and bunkers.
> 
> 
> Norinco has developed a four-round launcher for the Blue Arrow 7, giving a helicopter like the Mi-17 to ability to carry at least eight and perhaps 16 missiles in one load.
> 
> 
> Norinco has released some performance details of the associated electro-optical targeting system for the missile without identifying the precise system. The daytime (TV) detection range is 10 km and the identification range is 8 km; the night (infrared) detection range is 6 km with an identification range of 5 km. Additionally, a ground-based laser for third-party target designation is available with a maximum range of 6 km.
> 
> Marketing material from Norinco shows the Blue Arrow 7 missile being fired from a PLA Mi-171. This is the first time a precision air-to-surface weapon has been seen on a Chinese Mi-17 variant; the type is the backbone of the PLA Army Aviation assault helicopter fleet. This also marks an important milestone for the integration of Chinese weapons on non-Chinese aircraft - something that China has previously attempted only with its own versions of Russian fighter designs, such as the J-11.
> 
> 
> Firing trials for the Blue Arrow 7 have included this test launch from a PLA Army Aviation Mi-171.
> 
> 
> Missile integration with the Mi-171 would add a new capability to the PLA but also herald a new export arena for Chinese industry. It is possible that the Blue Arrow 7/Mi-17 package is an export-driven project and China's first step into the international upgrades sector.
> 
> The same missile has also been integrated and extensively tested on the AVIC Wing Loong (Pterodactyl) UAV. Developed by Chengdu, the Wing Loong has undertaken substantial airborne weapon trials with the KD-10/Blue Arrow 7 since it first flew in 2007. A Predator-class medium-altitude long-endurance UAV, the Wing Loong has been identified by AVIC as an export programme. Now that the development of this platform is relatively mature, an armed UAV application could equally be the first export opportunity for the Blue Arrow 7.
> 
> 
> _here comes the chinese 'hellfire' AGM!_



here it is






*Specifications*

Blue Arrow 7 missile 

*Guidance system:* laser semi-active
*Launching platform:* helicopters, UAVs
*Effective range:* 2000 m to 7000 m
*Diameter:* 170 mm
*Length: *1775 mm
*Weight:* 47 kg
*Hit probability: *no less than 88% within effective range
*Warhead:* Tandem HEAT
*Penetration:* 1400 mm/0°

Stabilized EO sight

*TV detection range: *10 km
*TV identification range:* 8 km
*Thermal imager detection range:* 6 km
*Thermal imager identification range:* 5 km

Ground laser illuminator

*Maximum illuminating range: *6 km

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## Thorough Pro

nuclearpak said:


> You quoted the wrong post. Solomon said PAC, not me.
> 
> Arslanaslam123 has given the answer



Solomon probably meant "Pakistan Aviation Corpse".


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## Jango

Thorough Pro said:


> Solomon probably meant "Pakistan Aviation Corpse".



Little correction, it is _Corps_


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## fatman17

*Napalm*

"You smell that? Do you smell that? Napalm, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for twelve hours. When it was all over I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like - victory" Apocalypse now (1979)



COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> Sirji,AFAIK these are registration numbers and not serial numbers which means it has been registered by the regulations body as a US aircraft.
> 
> N=November is the prefix which FAA uses for American aircrafts followed by digits and this prefix is given to every country by the International Telecommunication Union like for India it is Victor=V and for Germany it is Delta=D.



right!!!!!


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## fatman17

*Hawker Beechcraft Begins Low-Rate Production of Beechcraft AT-6*

FARNBOROUGH, U.K. (July 9, 2012) &#8211; Hawker Beechcraft Defense Company (HBDC) today announced it has entered low-rate initial production of its Beechcraft AT-6 light attack aircraft at the company&#8217;s facilities in Wichita, Kan. The company initiated low-rate production in response to significant indications of interest around the world for the AT-6, the most capable, affordable and sustainable light attack and armed reconnaissance platform.

Beechcraft AT-6
&#8220;Hawker Beechcraft has been meeting the needs of the U.S. Department of Defense and military nations around the world with trainer and special mission aircraft for more than 50 years,&#8221; said Derek Hess, HBDC vice president, Light Attack Programs. &#8220;We are now ready to begin manufacturing the AT-6 to fulfill the light attack and air support aircraft needs of our allies.&#8221;

The AT-6 is a multi-role, multi-mission aircraft system designed to meet the spectrum of needs for the light attack mission. Leveraging a range of highly-specialized but off-the-shelf capabilities, the AT-6 is outfitted with state-of-the-art equipment such as a Pratt and Whitney PTA&#8209;68D engine, CMC Esterline&#8217;s mission modified Cockpit 4000, Lockheed Martin&#8217;s A-10C-based mission system and L-3 WESCAM&#8217;s MX-15Di sensor suite. 

The aircraft has successfully demonstrated high-end net-centric and light attack capabilities and full compatibility with U.S. and NATO Joint Terminal Attack Controller systems during the Joint Expeditionary Force Experiment 2010, the Air National Guard Operational Assessment, and capabilities demonstrations of precision guided weapons conducted between 2010 and 2012. The AT-6 leads the light attack market with purpose-built capability, affordability, sustainability and interoperability for the most demanding of scenarios. 

The AT-6 is currently under review as part of the U.S. Air Force Afghanistan Light Air Support competition. In June, HBDC delivered its detailed response for the competition to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio.

Hawker Beechcraft is a world-leading manufacturer of business, special mission, light attack and trainer aircraft &#8211; designing, marketing and supporting aviation products and services for businesses, governments and individuals worldwide. The company&#8217;s headquarters and major facilities are located in Wichita, Kan., with operations in Little Rock, Ark.; Chester, England, U.K.; and Chihuahua, Mexico. The company leads the industry with a global network of more than 100 factory-owned and authorized service centers. For more information, visit Hawker Beechcraft: Corporate Home.


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## alimobin memon

*Pakistan and south korea have been in talk with USA for 15 CH47F chinooks *


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## DANGER-ZONE

alimobin memon said:


> *Pakistan and south korea have been in talk with USA for 15 CH47F chinooks *



Bhai Q asi batain ker rahay ho, Rooza Lag raha hai kia ?


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## alimobin memon

danger-zone said:


> Bhai Q asi batain ker rahay ho, Rooza Lag raha hai kia ?



It's true i got news from my uncle he is in army and my friend who's father is in army also confirmed u can ask any army official if u know ... i am also confused why not any internet news ... talks started since last day

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## shanixee

alimobin memon said:


> It's true i got news from my uncle he is in army and my friend who's father is in army also confirmed u can ask any army official if u know ... i am also confused why not any internet news ... talks started since last day


 
You might be right...cause 1ce i was traveling from lahore to islamabad and while traveling i spoke to a guy sitting next to me...he told me that he is marketing Chinook for Pak army...1st i thought he is just making it but when he introduced me i found out he is son of Gen Akram and nephew of Ch Nissar. but its like 8 years old. i dont know if ur referring to that thing.


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## fatman17

alimobin memon said:


> *Pakistan and south korea have been in talk with USA for 15 CH47F chinooks *



there could be some truth in this report as in the not to distant past, korean T37's were sold to PAF to be used for spares. we must be talking about used chinook's.


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## Stealth

also heard some info regarding Chinook ... any details ?


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## Last Hope



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## alimobin memon

CH47F are one of latest varient we might get new  south korea deal is seperate from pakistani

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## Blackpearl

Last Hope said:


>



i think its Peshawar Airport/Base


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## Last Hope

No CH47Fs. No Chinooks. 

We are not getting them.


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## Abingdonboy

alimobin memon said:


> *Pakistan and south korea have been in talk with USA for 15 CH47F chinooks *



Strange, India is in final stages of closing a deal for an identical number of exact same version ("F"). Confusion maybe?


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## fatman17

Abingdonboy said:


> Strange, India is in final stages of closing a deal for an identical number of exact same version ("F"). Confusion maybe?



from the US. these are used examples. pl continue your normal business.


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## Last Hope




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## Last Hope

AS-330.

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## Last Hope




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## Nishan_101

Last Hope said:


> No CH47Fs. No Chinooks.
> 
> We are not getting them.


Really its just because of our bad plans and US influence. We should have tried to negotiate on 30 Mi-26 if we really need a heavy lift helicopter.


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## Nishan_101

Last Hope said:


>


 
Although we have some good ones, But the reality is that PA should have ordered some 50-70 new Mi-17 V5s from Russian to replace the old ones which could be sold, when we had good relations and a good deal of money in our hands. Although we have good relations with Russians now but the money isn't there. More over we should also look towards the 35-50 EH-101 to replace the Puma's. We can easily gain money by selling the old ones and putting them in buying new ones or creating a better facility for maintainence of the choppers. Then we would have a decent fleet of 120 Helicopters.


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Last Hope said:


>



These sand bangs are tie-downs?


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## Blackpearl

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> These sand bangs are tie-downs?



Cobra has six points for attachment of tie down ropes, three on each side of fuselage, it is not tied down by sand bags.
This particular helo must have suffered a hard landing, thus causing its two cross tubes over skids to expand beyond its elastic limit and suffer permanent deflection/deformation. Also the part of underbody where cross tubes are attached, must have suffered stresses. The permanent deflection of cross tubes has reduced the ground clearance of underbody and ground, thats why a single bag fits easily underneath the fuseladge. Cobra has high CG, thus making it bit unstabe while on ground, so sand bags are there to keep it from toppling on either side. 
Also note a yellow colour blade stand, underneath the stub wing tip, i think it is to keep the aircraft alignment, so that it does not droop to either side.

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## Last Hope

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> These sand bangs are tie-downs?


No. The helicopter is damaged possibly due to the rough terrain of landing or just came back after maintenance.

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## Inception-06

What the Army has to do is too reduce the number of different Helicopter Types. 

The older Mi-8 and Mi-17 should be overhauled and upgraded with 12,7mm Guns. The same with all older Bell and UH-1 Types. The Pumas are overhauled and need only a machiene Gun Position at the side door. So the Army Aviation could have a mixed fleet of ca. 120 Mi-17, Bell-41EP, UH-1, and PUMA helicopters. This is enough for a Airborne-assault Brigade ! But the reality is that some are parked in Quetta and some are in service with the Air Force or in VIP Duty and PA has not enough funds, because Pakistan was not able in the last 50 years to build up a strong economy like India or Turkey ! Thats the reason why we cant buy more Helicopters or upgrade the older ones........


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## Inception-06

The Current Versions of every Transport Helicopter in service with the Pakistan Army, Navy or Air Force were unamrmed and were dilivered unarmed, even the Mi-17 of Bangladesh have weapons and armour. What the Pakistani Helicopters need is fighting equipment like night Vision, Board Guns etc. But we have even not $$ to continue the production in TAXILA of the APC, Tanks, Bullet proof vests etc. we need many things but, becuse of missmanagement our Soldiers are dying at the frontline, our jets and Helicopters are falling every month..........

You guyz are talking not only in thiss forum but also ********************* and pakdef since 3 years that Pakistan will get new Cobras, Pakistan will buy this and that nothing is happen, we have get only 14 Cobras that was all, nothing more 14 ! 14 for fighting a war since 2001....pure idiots in Islamabad !


Where are the Cobras we neeeeddd them at the frontline ! We have lost 5-7 since 2001 ! We need more firesupport ! What we get are only numbers on paper ! Really sad but true.


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## Nishan_101

Although if we had look closely towards the PAC for the joint development of Helicopters with CHINA then the situation might be quite different from now.
Like we could have:
PA:110 Mi-17s, 70 Bell-412/Lynx and 70 Bell-407 Classes type choppers
PAF:21 Mi-17s, 11 Bell-412/Lynx and 7 Bell-407 Classes type choppers
PN:21 Mi-17s, 15 Bell-412/Lynx and 7 Bell-407 Classes type choppers

From classes, I mean that weight and type not the actual ones. Like JV with China on new design and new concept(Like Kamov like rotors).


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## TaimiKhan

Yesterday i was passing by the Psh Airport and just in time to see a Bell-412 fly away. 

To my amazement i saw a EO pod right in the middle of the nose, just like the below pic:






http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vyEfVj4ZM...phibious_assault_ship_USS_Peleliu_(LHA_5).jpg

This is something new and a very good development.

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## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> Although we have some good ones, But the reality is that PA should have ordered some 50-70 new Mi-17 V5s from Russian to replace the old ones which could be sold, when we had good relations and a good deal of money in our hands. Although we have good relations with Russians now but the money isn't there. More over we should also look towards the 35-50 EH-101 to replace the Puma's. We can easily gain money by selling the old ones and putting them in buying new ones or creating a better facility for maintainence of the choppers. Then we would have a decent fleet of 120 Helicopters.



the reality is that you need to be realistic in your assessments!

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## Nishan_101

This is can really shows its capability:


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## Cool_Soldier

But no new fighter chopper is comming in Aviation.


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## Nishan_101

Yeah! Thats the only good new in Pakistan.


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## Last Hope

Blackpearl said:


> Cobra has six points for attachment of tie down ropes, three on each side of fuselage, it is not tied down by sand bags.
> This particular helo must have suffered a hard landing, thus causing its two cross tubes over skids to expand beyond its elastic limit and suffer permanent deflection/deformation. Also the part of underbody where cross tubes are attached, must have suffered stresses. The permanent deflection of cross tubes has reduced the ground clearance of underbody and ground, thats why a single bag fits easily underneath the fuseladge. Cobra has high CG, thus making it bit unstabe while on ground, so sand bags are there to keep it from toppling on either side.
> Also note a yellow colour blade stand, underneath the stub wing tip, i think it is to keep the aircraft alignment, so that it does not droop to either side.








This is P-AAC's unit too. Look at the wheels.


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## ANPP

Introduce the MIL 17 in your fleet is good decision. These are low cost, better performer.

50 EH-101, why are you need these birds when you are purchasing the MIL 17 ?
Spend money on more MIL 17


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> This is P-AAC's unit too. Look at the wheels.



The wheel is standard for towing a Cobra. Similarly with the Bell-412. 

In this case, the Cobra is slightly tilted and pushed down from the back, so as to create a pivot around the wheels.

The wheels is also not fully extended at this point either in the picture.


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> The wheel is standard for towing a Cobra. Similarly with the Bell-412.
> 
> In this case, the Cobra is slightly tilted and pushed down from the back, so as to create a pivot around the wheels.
> 
> The wheels is also not fully extended at this point either in the picture.



Adding to that, this unit has just arrived. 
The body does not seem to be battle-proven and is in a perfect figure.


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## fatman17

*China shows off Z-9WZ to international media*

Reuben F Johnson, Correspondent - Kiev

Additional reporting by

Michael J Gething Contributing Editor - London



A variant of the HAI Z-9WZ was shown during a press visit to the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Aviation 4th Helicopter Regiment at Tongzhou, just outside Beijing, on 24 July. 

The helicopter, which is a development from the Eurocopter AS 365N Dauphin 2, is built at the Harbin Aircraft Plant, where several other armed versions of the aircraft have been seen. 



Journalists look at a HAI (Eurocopter) Z-9WZ Haitun attack helicopter during a demonstration at a People's Liberation Army Aviation 4th Helicopter Regiment airbase in Beijing on 24 July 2012. The designation or manufacturer of the EO/IR turret is not known.

Although the 4th Helicopter Regiment has hosted foreign military delegations in the past, this was the first time that foreign media were permitted on to the base. The regiment is considered one of the PLA's elite detachments and was the force's first armed helicopter unit. 

Responding to a reporter's question regarding the country's reputation for military secrecy, China's Ministry of Defence spokesman, Geng Yansheng, said: "The Chinese military is very transparent. Through your cameras and reports, we hope to let more people see this unit. We will continue to organise such visits." 

The 4th Helicopter Regiment is often called on for special missions and other operations that require a quick response or flexibility in operations. Included in its missions are more than 100 non-combat military operations: these have covered security and air policing for the 2008 Beijing Olympics; post re-entry retrieval of all nine Shenzhou spacecraft; and rescue work after the 2008 Sichuan earthquake, which killed at least 70,000 people. 


HAI (Eurocopter) Z-9WZ Haitun attack helicopters perform a flight demonstration at a People's Liberation Army Aviation 4th Helicopter Regiment airbase in Beijing on 24 July 2012. 


One of the main points of the media presentation was that the unit's armed helicopters are "made-in-China" Z-9WZ models. The unit commander, Colonel Liu Zeqiang, said: "Now, all parts of the Z-9WZ are manufactured in China. It guarantees our training will not be interrupted by a shortage of parts." 

The Z-9WZ on show has a modified nose embodying an LLTV/IR undernose turret showing three windows indicating a likely payload comprising a thermal imager or low-light-level TV for night work, a daylight camera, and either a laser rangefinder and laser designator co-located or an integrated laser rangefinder. 

It has uprated engines and redesigned stub-wings that can be fitted with armaments, including up to eight HJ-8A anti-tank missiles or TY-90 IR-guided short-range air-to-air missiles; radar warning antennas at nose and tail, and another large antenna below the rear fuselage. 

Z-9 variants are also in service with Pakistan, Laos, Mauritius, Mali, Namibia and Kenya.

Western diplomats and military representatives based in Beijing stated that Col Liu's remarks were a thinly veiled reference to the problems that the PLA has had with its fleet of 22 Sikorsky S-70C Black Hawk helicopters, spare parts for which were shut off by the United States after the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989. The Black Hawks, which are all assigned to the Chengdu military district in Sichuan, were employed for rescue and medical missions after the 2008 earthquake, but the US still refused to waive the sanctions and provide needed spares. 

In June, Sikorsky's parent company, United Technologies, was fined USD75 million for exporting helicopter and engine software technology to China in violation of the sanctions. The technology provided by two of UTC's subsidiaries, Pratt & Whitney and Sundstrand, is credited with having helped China's AVIC develop the WZ-10 attack helicopter. 

The WZ-10, observed one Beijing-based diplomat, "was conspicuously absent from this press trip, which is not surprising given the number of cutting-edge combat capabilities it demonstrates". 



Last Hope said:


> Adding to that, this unit* has just arrived*.
> The body does not seem to be battle-proven and is in a perfect figure.



from where?????


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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> from where?????


Maintenance. 

The body seems to be repaired and a fresh paint-job has been given.


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## Jango

Army never leaves any of it's men behind.

It's been a long long time. Prayers with his family. Must be terrible to get the body after two months.

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## Abingdonboy

Nishan_101 said:


> This is can really shows its capability:



lol 1.00- trying to do a BLACK HAWK DOWN moment! Fail! 

"Single Shot Through The Engine Block!"







_This _is how you do it!


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## Abingdonboy

Nishan_101 said:


> This is can really shows its capability:



lol 1.00- trying to do a BLACK HAWK DOWN moment! Fail! 

"Single Shot Through The Engine Block!"







_This _is how you do it!


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Army never leaves any of it's men behind.
> 
> It's been a long long time. Prayers with his family. Must be terrible to get the body after two months.


I expected Major Sahib to be alive till the last moment.


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## Last Hope



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## Jango

The body of Maj Bari had dug in to the river bed, right beside the foundation pillar of a bridge. So, it was in a way buried underwater.


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## Jango

DSC00748.JPG (image)

old pic, but good one nonetheless.

Mi-17 being delivered.


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## Jango

Somwhere Taimikhan said that he saw something on a Bell 412 flying out of peshawar AFB, was it something like this?

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## fatman17

Cobras over the frontier.

Since 1947 there has been a regular requirement for the Pakistani military to subdue rebellious tribesmen in the autonomous Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) along the rugged Pakistan-Afghan border.

In the immediate period after Pakistan split from India in 1946, the then RPAF (Royal Pakistan Air Force) took over the &#8216;watch and ward&#8217; duties previously carried out by the RAF squadrons in the area. Hawker Trmpest II and Fury fighter-bombers periodically rained &#8216;brimstone and fire&#8217; upon the errant tribesmen.

Eventually a period of relative calm ensued, after which the state had no reason to enter the area in force. Some areas never saw any form of government presence, except perhaps for the occasional &#8216;political agent&#8217;. The Tempest II and Fury have long been consigned to history, but their places have been taken by another aircraft capable of striking fear into the hearts of unruly tribesmen &#8211; the AH-1 Cobra.

FATA
The political situation in the FATA remained the same for years, and even during the Jihad (holy war) to eject the soviets from Afghanistan, the central Pakistan government exercised little direct control over the area. In the 1990&#8217;s the region became even more remote from government control as its administrative system &#8211; which broke down during the influx of massive numbers of refugees and fighters in the 1980&#8217;s &#8211; disintegrated. In that decade when Pakistan was gripped by financial and political problems, the FATA began to operate as a collection of completely separate fiefdoms. This continued until General Pervez Musharraf seized power in a Coup in 1999 when it was quickly recognized that the situation could not continue in the light of Taliban rule in Afghanistan and the increasing turmoil that was spilling over into Pakistan. Even before September 2001, the Pakistani government was moving to bring these areas under greater state control.

However it was not prepared for the aftermath of the 2001 Allied intervention in Afghanistan. When Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) began in late 2001, thousands of militants sought to escape the coalition onslaught and hide in the FATA where either Taliban supporters and / or foreign fighters attempting to set up bases from which to attack US led forces in Afghanistan. What can only be described as a &#8216;scramble&#8217; in an attempt to limit the huge number of refugees and militants flowing into Pakistan as its government changed Its policy virtually overnight - from tacit approval of the Taliban to support for the US&#8226;led intervention.
Pakistan was already a haven for huge numbers of Afghan refugees who fled first the Soviets and then the civil wars and anarchy of the 1990s. Although this resulted in a massive increase in drug and gun culture, which had a destabilizing effect on Pakistani society, the real problem was the militants. Those taking up arms against the government largely comprised three groups - tribal fighters indigenous to the region who sometimes signed peace deals with the government; 'guns for hire' (basically smugglers or other criminals whose income had lessened because of the increased presence of government forces to restrict movement across the border); and ideologically driven militants, both domestic and foreign.

The criminal element accepts money from any source to take up arms against the government, to compensate for its loss in revenue. In this regard, it has proved a useful tool for any internal or external power with a grudge against the government, or against Pakistan in general. The foreign fighters are generally more ruthless, and come mostly from the Central Asian or Arab states (those which failed to deal adequately with their disaffected citizens), the Uzbeks being perceived as the most barbaric. During the jihad against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s, it seems to have been the practice for countries to 'export' their Islamic extremists to Afghanistan in the hope they would be 'martyred', or at least cease to be a cause for concern by their home country. This led in particular to the presence in Afghanistan of such notables as Ayman AI&#8226;Zarahwi, later the ideological head (if not the true leader) of al&#8226;Qaeda, who had been released from detention in Egypt and allowed to leave the country by the government despite being an active extremist.

In the 1990s these decisions backfired badly on some Moslem countries. As hardened extremists returned home after 'defeating' the Russians in Afghanistan, they felt confident of 'divine intervention' in attempting to transform their home states In accordance with their own twisted understanding of Islam. Campaigns against them by state security services killed many (as seen in Egypt in the massacre at Luxor in November 1997 and its aftermath), and forced others to flee. 

Searching for a refuge, they found no better place than Afghanistan and the lawless tribal belt they had come to know so well. In many cases, extremists who have holed up in the FATA have co-opted local tribes to support their cause via propaganda, or copious amounts of money. Faced with such dogged adversaries firmly entrenched in infamously difficult terrain, the Pakistan Army's AH-l Cobras have been invaluable in helping ground forces during the heavy fighting which has gone on there -see Sordgeh Ops [below].

Enter the Cobra
The Pakistan Army (PA) acquired its Cobras in 1984 as part of the US arms supplies it amassed to help in any possible Soviet aggression, and the aircraft were centrally based in Multan with the 33rd Army Aviation Combat Squadron (MCS). The PA operates the AH-1 F variant, which has been upgraded with the 'C-NITE' system to be fully night-capable. The Cobras were purchased principally (though obviously not exclusively) as an anti-armor weapon. Their primary armament is the TOW and TOW-II anti&#8226;tank guided missile (ATGM), a highly accurate weapon which has repeatedly proved itself, and which has been much-praised by crews. The system has been vital in minimizing collateral damage, and has proved highly effective in attacking militants either entrenched behind stone walls or taking refuge in the fort&#8226;type of housing found along the tribal belt.

In avoiding civilian casualties, accurate weapon delivery is coupled with the need for good intelligence. All information is checked, re&#8212;checked and cross-checked before the AH-1F goes into action as civilian deaths would be used as a 'recruiting card' for the militants. However, the Cobra crews have the final say on whether to fire, and this has led to a number of close calls being avoided in Baluchistan and on the frontier. For close support work, seven or 19 round 2.75-in&#8217; rocket pods can also be carried, and the chin turret houses a M197 three-barreled 20mm cannon. As those on the receiving end can attest, the Cobra's bite is deadly.

Operating along the frontier in support of ground troops, the PA Cobra crews have tapped into the experiences of the Soviet Mil Mi-24 Hind crews in Afghanistan in the 1980s, plus their own training, which has benefited from US expertise in operating the type since Vietnam.

With American training, lhe Cobras fly in conjunction with the Bell 407 jet ranger, which is used operationally in a similar manner to the US Army Kiowas, (though it is not as capable, as it lacks a comparable sensor fit). The 33rd AACS 'won its spurs' in Somalia in the early 1990s when it supported the UN mission there, and consequently has built up a wealth of experience in its own right. 

Operations
Sweeps of the fATA (and indeed the whole frontier), aimed at recovering prohibited weaponry, regularly produce the ubiquitous RPG-7s, mines, mortars, rocket and light artillery pieces, plus staggering quantities of ammunition. With 'cottage industries' churning out vast quantities of guns for the local arms bazaar, it seems to be mandatory for the locals to carry an AK-47, as is the secretion of 'heavier weapons&#8217; (usually medium or even heavy caliber mortars or machine gum, plus light rocket artillery) In case tribal disputes gel out of hand. There has also been a fear that MAN PADS (Man Portable AIr Defence Systems), such as the deadly US Stinger left over from the Afghan jihad of the 1980s, or Russian types such as the SA-? Grail, acquired in the Central Asian arms bazaar, might have found their way into the region. In recognition of this potential threat, the extended engine exhaust above the tail should help protect the Cobras, along with the AN/ALQ-144 IRCM (infra-red counter-measure) unit.
For the Cobras, and indeed all the Pakistan Army Aviation units, operations have increased markedly since 2002, having become continuous since 2003. The Cobras are now in a constant state of readiness, as they must respond quickly whenever a threat develops. A great bonus for the Cobra is its ability to operate 'round the clock', which puts the militants at a distinct disadvantage. During a night raid in June 2004, two TOW missile-equipped Cobras attacked a house where a notorious pro-Taliban tribal leader and general brigand, Nek Mohammed was hiding out. Such was his holiness (' Nek' loosely means 'holy' or 'pious') that he had been responsible for sheltering foreign militants and for high-profile attacks on Pakistani troops, and had threatened to expand his campaign of terror to Pakistani cities.

Ironically, the Americans had released him from custody in Guantanamo Bay after he had been deemed 'not a threat'. However, despite his anti-state activities and his appetite for media attention, he had not reckoned with the Cobra's ability to attack him at night, and died whilst speaking to journalists on his satellite phone.

This strike capability has since been displayed a number of times, most recently in the strike on Bajaur in late 2006, when a large number of militants were killed in a pre-dawn strike on a terrorist training camp. In the days leading up to the strike, the occupants had been warned to desist from their illegal activities, but had ignored this. The strike was carried out by two Cobras with no warning - the authorities had found that prior notification only allowed the 'big fish' to escape whilst 'cannon fodder' gave covering fire and were invariably ' martyred ' and later 'avenged'. The Bajaur strike was a textbook example in dealing with this kind of target. A similar raid took place in May when a Taliban training camp 20 miles (30km) south of Miranshah was attacked by troops backed by Cobras. As usual the militants, said to have been Uzbeks, refused to surrender and opened fire on the tribal elders sent to request them to lay down their arms. In the ensuing battle, the Cobras lent a decisive hand and the camp was destroyed, but controversy followed when the elders blamed the security forces, rather than the militants, for the fighting. Such developments are not unusual, and make the job of the security forces doubly difficult.

However, such successes have led to use of the Cobra being perceived by militants and the media alike as an 'escalation' of the fighting, much In the way of tanks being used to quell a street protest. The Cobra has a good psychological effect. For the militants, who have no answer to this aircraft, the mere presence of one circling overhead inspires fear.



New arrivals
As in Afghanistan, fighting against the militants usually rises to a peak in the summer months; Pakistani security forces have fought a vicious campaign in the Waziristan area. The Cobras have been heavily tasked in this harsh and unforgiving landscape, which lends itself naturally to guerrilla warfare. The aircraft's effectiveness is testament to its brilliant design. Operations here were somewhat limited by the small number of Cobras available (18), though the force received a welcome boost when the new batch of eight (which arrived in November last year) became fully operational. These were delivered by the US in recognition of Pakistan's efforts against the militants along the western border, and in the ongoing hunt of the al-Qaeda network. Again, these were C-NITE-equipped AH-l F Cobras, part of a US$50 million foreign military sales program, designed to slip seamlessly into the on-going Cobra operations. Though 40 years old, they were completely refurbished before being transferred to PAA at Qasim airbase near Islamabad.

Airborne operations
The overall rise in the number of airborne assets becoming available has brought about an increase in army aviation operations, and a new heli-borne force has been formed to locate, apprehend or kill terrorists hiding on Pakistani soil. Currently, the PA can call upon Puma, Mi-17 Hip, and 26 fairly recently transferred Bell 412s (which arrived with the further batch of four refurbished Cobras) serving with the 25th Army Aviation Squadron.

The Bell 412 is fully NVG (Night Vision Goggle) capable, and is used by Special Operations Task Force (SOTF) personnel, who carry out targeted night raids on suspected terrorists. The SOTF is a recent formation, raised with American help and equipped largely with US equipment. Specially trained in airborne operations, it is the primary rapid response unit employed in the search for al-Qaeda and Taliban fugitives in the 'badlands' on the Pakistani side of the Afghan-Pakistan border. The usual method of operations is for an area to be cordoned off by the Frontier Corps/Frontier Constabulary (FC, two para-military organizations which do essentially the same job), while the Cobras spearhead the aviation element by leading the SOTF (or occasionally the regular army) on board Bell 412 or Hip helicopters.

Clearing the given area sometimes requires moving from house to house, killing or apprehending wanted militants. The Cobras continue to provide support while the transports leave. These are essentially small-scale airborne operations. The Cobras have been an integral part of SOTF missions, and their round-the-clock availability allows them to bring overwhelming firepower to bear against any targets identified. For more intensive operations, the Cobras and the SOTF may be joined by elements of the SSG.

The Future
Perhaps the main problem is that there has been no Afghanistan-Pakistan border since 1947 as the Afghan government has never accepted its permanence. Successive Pakistani governments have also thought that friendly, or at least amiable, relations with Afghanistan would give Pakistan an element of strategic depth. Furthermore, the Pathan tribes pay little attention to the border as they have family ties on both sides. For these reasons, the border was never militarily secured and the FC was only tasked with holding certain entry/ exit points.

This policy has now changed and the border will have to be secured militarily and patrolled. Efforts to fence off sections and mine them are already underway in an effort to check movement in and out of Pakistan. In the long term, it is hoped that this will leave the Taliban and al-Qaeda trapped in Afghanistan, though the short to medium term is likely to bring more fighting on Pakistani soil.

It is dear that the PA's small Cobra force will fly at the sharp end of the fight against terrorism for the foreseeable future. The rise in operational tempo may require the number of Cobras to be further increased, though this is currently uncertain, as are the rumors of new types of helicopter gunships. These may not come from America (although further Cobras or perhaps even AH-64 Apaches - would be welcome). The Italian Mangusta is a possibility (particularly as it was recently ordered by Turkey), as is the Chinese WZ-10, or even a Russian type (most likely to come via Ukraine, though interest has allegedly been expressed in the Russian Mil Mi-28 Havoc).

It is the Hind which is probably best suited to fighting on the frontier because of its ruggedness and firepower. However, if new gunships are to be procured in the future, the Bell AH&#8226;l Z may be the ideal choice, not only because it is the latest incarnation of the type, but also because it has twin engines, rather than the single engine of the AH-l F.

Whatever the future holds, it will be tough for the small Cobra force. What is certain, though, is that the Cobra will continue to be regarded with dread by those who take up arms against Pakistan and its people. Its basic design may be many years old, but there can be no denying that, like its reptilian namesake, its bite is deadly.

Sardgeh Op
In March 2006 the Cobras were called upon to help extract an SSG (Special Services Group) team which had been ambushed outside the village of Sardgeh, near the town of Wana in South Waziristan. The target was a training compound, but unknown to the SSG team the chosen drop zone had been identified by the terrorists as a potential helicopter landing spot, and they had built and manned concealed firing positions around it. This was a tactic used by the Mujahideen against the Soviets in Afghanistan, which leads to the conclusion that the terrorists were highly experienced fighters. As the S5G team disembarked from the Hip transports and took up positions, what seemed to be the whole village came out firing every available weapon. One of the SSG team members was immediately felled, and the rest were pinned down, unable to move without inviting a hail of gunfire.

The Hips, which made attractive targets, barely managed to take off without getting shot down. As they tried to return and extract the team, they were repeatedly driven off by intense fire. One was hit and badly damaged by an RPG-7, but managed to limp away. 

The six Cobras supporting the mission immediately swung into action, though it quickly became clear that they would have to abandon their stand-off capability and move in close if the SSG team was to be saved. They made repeated passes over the area, laying down suppressing fire in an effort to clear the way for the Hips to come in and pick up the team. Such was the intensity of fire that all six Cobras received hits from small arms, but nothing vital was damaged and they all retumed to base safely. It was entirely due to their suppressive fire that the Hips were able to brave the much reduced small arms fire to extract the team, which lost only one man. To date, this has been the Cobras' most dangerous mission.

Pakistan Army AH-l S
ALTHOUGH THE Pakistan Army still operates 20 of the AH-l S delivered in the mid-1980s, the figures were boosted by the delivery of a further eight Cobras on November 16, 2007. They were handed over by the US Ambassador to Pakistan, Ryan C Crocker, who said on that occasion "Pakistan has posted 80,000 troops to the Afghan border and has killed more than 700 militants in the anti-terror operations going on there. Regrettably, it has lost 400 Pakistanis in actions related to the War on Terror"

The first batch of a total of 40 Night Capable (C-N1TE) Cobras the US is donating to Pakistan is part of a five-year security assistance program that began in 2003. To date 12 Cobras have been delivered and the rest will follow by June this year, raising the Pakistan Army's strength of Cobras to 39. 

Acknowledgment;
Special thanks to Lt. Col. 8 H Malik, Maj. M Khan, Maj. Aurangzeb (ISPR); Bng. K Mahmood, and officers and men of 33rd AACS and 25th AAS.
AFM

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Last Hope

Coming soon (2014-15) ex-USAF AH-1Z Cobra.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## SEAL

Last Hope said:


> Coming soon (2014-15) ex-USAF AH-1Z Cobra.



AH-1Z will be available for export in 2014/15, i think we will get new ones and i hope this deal go through according to the plan.


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## Nishan_101

Last Hope said:


> Coming soon (2014-15) ex-USAF AH-1Z Cobra.


 
Its better to get ATAK or Z-10P instead of this.


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## Nishan_101




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## Nishan_101

nuclearpak said:


> Somwhere Taimikhan said that he saw something on a Bell 412 flying out of peshawar AFB, was it something like this?


 
Is Z-9 in the similar class as this:


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## Last Hope

Nishan.


I think we might go for T-129. A squadron or two maximum in the future.


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## mell

Fatman bhai, just for my knowledge, I know this isn't classified data that you are providing, but wouldn't this be in the anti towards national interests or is such squadron data available for all other armed forces? Thanks


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## Last Hope

mell said:


> Fatman bhai, just for my knowledge, I know this isn't classified data that you are providing, but wouldn't this be in the anti towards national interests or is such squadron data available for all other armed forces? Thanks



You think all the data he has posted, is not already available to other Intelligence agencies?
He has posted nothing classified.


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## Fieldmarshal

Last Hope said:


> Coming soon (2014-15) ex-USAF AH-1Z Cobra.



usaf does not operate any cobra and it is only the us marines that operate the Z model


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## SEAL

Nishan_101 said:


> Its better to get ATAK or Z-10P instead of this.



By the time we get AH-1Z, ATAK and AH-1Z will be available for export both have to full fill domestic demand first and by that time their systems will be mature as well.


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## Kompromat

My best bet still lies with the ATAK.


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## Abingdonboy

Last Hope said:


> Coming soon (2014-15) ex-USAF AH-1Z Cobra.



Csn soldering the *USMC* only recently started operating the AH-1Z I find it unlikely that there will be any AH-1Zs retired by the USMC that Pakistan can get, surely the Marines will want to keep these birds for at least another decade? Maybe Pakistan bpcan _Buy_ some new AH-1Zs from 2015 onwards but I see getting retired ones unlikely as they are way too new to be reinterred.


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## Jango

Nishan_101 said:


> Is Z-9 in the similar class as this:



Well, both are utility helis, but the Bell provides space for 13 people, while Z-9 for three. The internal load of Bell is also around 2100 kg, while for Z-9, it is around 1900 kg. So Bell is a bit larger than the Z-9.


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## Jango

A company, Aerotron has been blacklisted by the Army on security reasons.

Aerotron was the supplier of Bell 412 to Pak Army for the past 38 years or so.


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## fatman17

Terror In The Tribal Zone.


Alan Warnes reports.



As US bombers struck al Qaeda and Taliban targets in October 2001, many of its fighters fled east towards the Federal Administered Tribal Area (FATA), which stretches along the Afghan-Pakistan border. 

As the Pakistan Air Force Chief, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed told the author in early 2007, 'it was like rats running through the drains', However within ten days of the United Nations Resolution 1386 being passed on December 30, 2001, the Pakistan Army began airlifting troops into the snow clad border regions around Nangharkar and Paktika.

Al Oaeda, Taliban and the US:
Increased tension with India, which nearly led to war at that time meant the Pakistan Army was focusing much of its efforts on the eastern borders. It meant many of the fighters were left free to roam deeper into the FATA and beyond. The situation was exacerbated by some in the Army finding it difficult to act against former allies from the 1980s, when the Army struck a close alliance with the Mujahedeen as they fought the Soviets in Afghanistan.

The al Qaeda and Taliban militias put up camps in the FATA and Swat Valley, alongside their allies already living in the autonomous swathe of land on Pakistan's western fringes. There were many sympathetic to the Taliban's cause along with pockets of support in other areas inside Pakistan, due largely to their ignorance or poor education.

Many in Pakistan had a deep mistrust of the Americans. They could not forgive them for what had happened in the wake of the Soviets withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989. The US simply dropped all interest or responsibility for supplying arms to militias fighting the Soviets and walked away. This left the Pakistani-backed Taliban to get stronger and go head to head with the Northern Alliance, backed by Iran and India. Add the stream of US military sanctions on Pakistan (and India) because of their nuclear weapons testing and the wars of 1965 and '71 and one begins to understand the anti-US feeling.

However, with the US needing President Musharraf's government in its Global War on Terrorism (GWOT), things had to change. Military aid was one area the US Government promised to assist, if their wish for Pakistan to start hunting down the terrorists along its western border would be granted. Some military aid filtered through to the Pakistan Army Aviation (PAA), with 26 brand new Bell 412EPs being delivered from 2004, initially on lease although eventually the 25 survivors were officially handed over by the US Ambassador to Islamabad on October 22,2007.

All have been split between 4 Sqn at Quetta and 25 Sqn at Qasim acting as air assault squadrons. Their twin-engine capabilities have allowed them to be used as a fast scout/escort aircraft, flying with AH-1Fs, and this has reduced the need for the Bell 206 Jet Rangers that used to fill this role. The US also provided 12 former US Army AH-1Fs, now serving the PAA's Combat Group.

Operation AI Mesin:
Once the tense situation with India started to ease in 2002, Army troops moved into the FATA region, where federal control of the Government is indirectly exercised by the President/Governor through a special system comprising tribal elders (Maliks) and Local Administration (a legacy of former British rule). There was resentment about what was perceived as the government interference in its business, and the locals grew suspicious. Nevertheless Operation AI Mesin got the Pakistan Army's push underway but Pakistan Army Aviation would have to provide a heli-lift capability to transport supplies, logistics and troops to the front line as well as AH-1 Cobra firepower to provide close air support. It has not been easy for the Pakistan Army; there have been around 2,450 soldiers killed, a figure considerably higher than the losses suffered by the US and its allies in Afghanistan of 1,597 (see iCasualties: Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom Casualties) and around 3,400 seriously injured since 2001. Some 60% of these casualties have come in the past two years, when the Army took the battle to the Taliban and al Qaeda fighters. Unlike the war being fought in Afghanistan, the Pakistan Army restricts all journalists and photographers travelling into the FATA and Swat regions, but fighting is believed to be ferocious at times.

There have been many major operations against the Taliban in recent years that will be etched in PAA folklore because of the action that took place. They include: Operation Strike Eagle (January 2008), Rah-e-Haq (Swat - early 2008), Rah-e-Rast (Swat July-Sept 09) and Rah-e-Nijat (South Waziristan Oct - end of Nov 2009). All of them saw a lot of fighting and helicopter support from the PAA.

Leading the Pakistan Army Aviation since September 2008, as its General Officer Commanding (GOC), is Major General Tanveer Ullah Khan, a seasoned pilot with immense flying experience in conflict zones. As 5 Sqn Commander, he was based at Skardu in the Siachin Glacier conflict zone and has also commanded the elite 101 Army Aviation Group (AAG) supporting the GWOT on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. He told me of the war along the western borders:

"The Waziristan area is a huge wilderness stretching some 500 miles (800km) by 110 miles (180km) where temperatures can range from 40' C to -10'C. It is a terrain with little roads and certainly not a lot of communication, where the enemy know the areas much better than we do.

All this has meant the Army relies on the Aviation Branch to give it the edge.

'We have three main roles: Combat is provided by the Combat Group used in close support with the ground troops. As we don't have sufficient assets, and the Cobra gunships can't be everywhere, we have indigenously armed our Bell 412s with a basic gun, to support troops on the ground. Our US friends are now fitting custom made guns to provide us with a dedicated armed helicopter.

"The other two roles are logistics and supply. Some army posts are around 11,000ft [3,353m] high and we can't get vehicles to them easily so helicopters are the only way to get supplies up there.

"We are manning the Afghan border on our side and the International Security Assistance Force is doing the same on their side in an attempt to stop fighters moving across Afghanistan to Pakistan and vice versa. As these areas have no roads, our fleet of cargo carrying Mi-17s has been called in to do the job, essentially to provide supplies, fuel, ammunition, casualty evacuation and medical evacuation."

Forward Operating Bases:
Since the main operating bases at the old garrison towns at Rawalpindi and Multan are hundreds of miles from the fighting, it has been necessary to organize four Forward Operating Bases (FOBs).

These FOBs have been set up closer to the fighting, where logistical supplies can be dropped off. A Tactical Headquarters has also been formed on the front line. The PAA maintains a close liaison with the FOBs and ground formations so that all operations are fully integrated with the helicopter support wherever required.

The four main FOBs are Peshawar, Miran Shah, Wana and Dera Ismail Khan. During mid-November there were 10 Bell 412s, 14 AH-1 F Cobras, 5 Mi-17 Hips, 5 Huey IIs (Department of Interior), one Alouette III, one AS350B3 Ecureil and a MFI17 Mushshak operating from these facilities. Some FOBs are busier than others - for example, when clashes were occurring in southern Waziristan, DI Khan was housing four Bell 412s, six AH-lFs, two Huey IIs and an Alouette III.

However, during my stay in Pakistan, the fight was constantly moving, so DI Khan would see these helicopter assets deploy to another FOB, possibly Wana, as the enemy headed west. If helicopters need more fuel while supporting troops away from the FOBs, there are four Forward Area and Arming Re-fuelling Points (FAARPs) to accommodate them.

More than 60 helicopters have been hit by enemy fire, seven of them lost, including a Mi-17 on October 24, 2009, when it crashed in the Nawagai area of the semi-autonomous Bajaur tribal region, killing six on board and injuring several others. The helicopter has now been recovered.

According to the GOC: "The enemy is armed with 14.5mm ack-acks, 12.7mm machine guns, and the helicopters do not have specialist self-protection systems, so all the pilots are trained in electronic warfare tactics. As a precaution we always fly in pairs because if a helicopter is shot down, its partner can land and pick the aircrew up, as has happened in the past."
Most of the personnel work on 20-day rotations to the war zone, moving forward whenever required and then returning to their main operating base afterwards.

The PAA is organized into Army Aviation Groups (AAGs) that are based at Qasim, Quetta, Rahwali and Multan. All of them have different responsibilities, although the 303 AAG at Rahwali is responsible for flying training and does not dovetail into a Battle Group, like the other three AAGs at Qasim (101), Quetta (202) and Multan (404/Combat Group).

Qasim:
This, the largest and oldest of all Army Aviation bases, is situated in the garrison town of Rawalpindi and houses the 101 AAG. It is responsible for providing trained personnel, both aircrews and ground personnel as well as helicopters to the front line to serve with the Combat Group. Since being designated the 101 AAG in 2002, the 101 AAG has had eight main tasks:

 Provide aerial cover to advancing troops
 Destroy targets
 Provide combat support to troops.
 Casualty evacuation (CASEVAC)
 Logistical support at helipads and a secondary role of transporting ground troops.
 Provide real time info through aerial platforms i.e. helicopters and Cessna Caravans.
 Heli-borne Ops on order.
 Helicopter transportation of troops on order.

To fulfill its objectives, 101 AAG can call upon three of the five aviation squadrons based at Qasim to bring their specialized skills to the fight- firepower, logistics and supplies. The other two squadrons provide the Army with the support it needs but in other areas.

No 8 Sqn 'Chumik Warriors' is hailed as the most decorated unit in Pakistan Army Aviation, although the Cobra squadrons are getting pretty close to them thanks to the past eight years of combat ops. All of 8 Sqn's medals have been awarded while flying the SA 315 lama from its forward operating base at Skardu in the Himalayas. It is from here, one of the highest aviation bases found anywhere, that they fly regular missions around some of the highest peaks in the world, supporting Army operations in the disputed Kashmir. High altitude operations are dangerous, but the 'Chumik Warriors' often fly missions at 20,000ft (6,000m) to get to Army positions.

Even though Waziristan operations are taking up much of the PAA's commitments these days, the tension and problems that regularly affect Kashmir do not go away. While Army troops are fighting the Taliban in the west of Pakistan, colleagues continue facing the Indian Army, in the Himalayas. The SA 315 Lama is synonymous with helicopter flying on top of the world because of its light airframe, a strength picked up by the Indian Army, which still operates the 60s vintage stalwart in the northern reaches.
The responsibility of maintaining these ageing helicopters is left to 299 EME 'Striving for Perfection' at Qasim. No 8 Sqn has now given up the lama for another French helicopter, the Euro copter AS350B3 Ecureuil. It might not have the emotional pull of the Lama, but it is a competent replacement. Nevertheless a handful of lamas continue to soldier on with four other squadrons, maintained by the Qasim based 299 EME (Electrical and Maintenance Engineers) motto: 'Striving for Perfection'.

The ten AS350B3 Ecureuils, are split between 8 Sqn, 5 Sqn at Skardu and Qasim based 13 Sqn. A deal was also signed for ten Euro copter AS 550B3 Fennecs, and although the helicopters were seen being test flown at Marseille in early 2009, the PAA has declined to take delivery of them.

No 13 Sqn has the most diverse inventory of any army aviation squadron, its assets include SA330J Pumas, Mi17V5 Hips, Harbin Y12s, AS350B3s, Beech 200/350s and Citation Vs. This comes as a consequence of being a WIP/VIP squadron responsible for flying high ranking army officers and politicians including the Prime Minister as well as the President.-The most recent purchase was three Kazan Mi17V5s in early 2009.

A new unit, 25 Sqn has stood up at Qasim within the past three years and is very busy flying the Bell 412EPs, which act as scout/escort aircraft to the Cobras. Some have also been equipped with guns.

Like the UK's helicopter debate, the war with al Qaeda and the Taliban highlighted the lack of heli-lift capability. However, Pakistan did something about it and over the past seven years has added around 40 Mi-17/Mi8MTV Hips from Kazan Helicopters and Ulan Ude Aviation Plant, to the inventory. Six Mi8MTV-1 s delivered in late June 2009 have been leased from the US Department of Defense on a rolling year contract.

No 27 Sqn at Qasim is the main operator of the Mi17, although there are also Hip units based at Quetta (4 Sqn), Skardu (5 Sqn) and Tarbela (home to the PAAs Special Forces Unit - 21 Sqn). The Hip is a robust and relatively cheap medium  lift Russian helicopter that can carry large numbers of troops into the barren and rocky regions of Waziristan. There is no doubt that without the Hip, the war in the west would be progressing a lot more slowly.

The helicopters are regularly air-freighted to LOM Prague, Czech Republic and Helisota in Lithuania for major overhauls as they are being worked tirelessly.

Unfortunately there have been several Hip crashes over the past few years, which is not surprising given the harsh conditions in which they work, on the snowcapped Himalayas or the extreme heat of Waziristan, The most devastating accident occurred on July 3, 2009 when a Mi-17 crashed in northwestern Pakistan, allegedly due to a technical fault, coming down on the mountainous border of the semi-autonomous Orakzai and Khyber tribal regions, killing all 26 personnel on board. The crash occurred around 12 miles (20kms) from Peshawar and despite claims by the Taliban that they shot it down, Pakistani officials deny this, saying the pilot had requested an emergency landing due to a mechanical problem.

Mi17, flew nearly 120,0001b (54,432kg) of cargo and 3,203 troops during October 2009. While 222 soldiers were flown back by CASEVAC helicopters to hospitals and sadly, some 58 troops killed in action.

In a further boost to heli-lift capability, the UAEAF has provided some of their surplus SA330 Pumas as the 1970s Vintage SA330J Pumas are now getting a little long in the tooth. As a result, 28 Sqn has stood up at Qasim although most of its 'new' Pumas were going through an inspection during the authors visit.

There are also at least three maintenance depots (299, 399 and 503 EME) at Qasim, overhauling and repairing aircraft that are then returned to their respective units.

Multan - Home of the Firepower:
Located around 600 miles (1,000km) north of Karachi in the center of Pakistan is Multan, known as the 'City of Saints'. It is also home to a major PAA base, which shares its runway with the domestic airport, where the 404 AAG commonly known as the Combat Group reside. The Combat Group was formed 25 years ago in 1984 and has been in the field since 2002.

While the base is situated a long way from the action, it hasn't always been that way. It was built when Pakistan lived in domestic bliss and the real threat of war came from its eastern neighbor, India. Multan is actually closer to Delhi than Karachi or Islamabad.

Consequently three squadrons of AH1F Cobras now operate from Multan, forming one of the first lines of defense along the eastern borders.

Today, however the Combat Group's firepower is concentrated on the western borders, in Waziristan. All the squadrons take turns in deploying to a Forward Operating Base, usually 20 days at a time and everybody plays an important role ensuring that the deployments go to plan.

AH-1S Cobras joined the PAA in 1984 with a first unit, 31 'Panzer' Sqn standing up on March 12, 1985. It was numbered 31, as the Indian Army's 31 Armoured Division is based on the other side of the border and if India and Pakistan were ever to go to war again it is likely they would be fighting each other. The name 'Panzer' was inspired by the unstoppable Panzer Divisions of World War II.

Some 20 AH-1S Cobras were delivered in total, divided between 31 and 33 'Air Wolves' Sqn. In November 2006, the surviving AH-1S Cobras, by now upgraded to AH-1Fs, were joined by eight ex-US Army examples while a further batch of four arrived in mid-2007. According to one source however, 'the Cobras looked great externally, but when you started looking behind the panels there was a lot of snags - they were not in good shape'.

The delivery of these additional 12 helicopters allowed the three Cobra squadrons to increase their helicopter strengths. When the 3S Sqn 'Mustangs' stood up on August 15, 2005, it meant each unit was only flying around six gunships in addition to the six or so Bell 206 Jet Rangers scout helicopters.

Of the original batch of Cobras supplied in the mid-80s most of them have been upgraded with C-NlTE (Cobra - Night Imaging Thermal Equipment). With the integration of a FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) receiver and an infrared Telescopic Sight Unit the Cobra is able to accurately direct its TOW missiles, cannon and rocket fire through darkness and poor visibility.

However, the more recent AH-1 F deliveries did not arrive with C-NITE and so are generally limited to day operations. All the pilots are currently going through Night Vision Goggle training to enable them to fight in the dark. During October the Cobras were unleashing their TOWs, cannon and rockets at the terrorists from all four of the FOBs as the Pakistan Army ground troops advanced on Taliban positions. Some 241 targets were engaged, around eight a day on terrorist positions - huts, bunkers, anti-aircraft guns, ammunition dumps and even a communications tower.

Not surprisingly, the maintenance people have also become quite skilled at battle damage repairs: during the same month five AH-1Fs were hit by enemy fire, with the action taking place around the Wana and DI Khan regions.

It isn't just Cobras though that fly from Multan, two other squadrons are in residence, 3 Sqn with Lamas and MFI-17 Mushshaks as well as 25 Sqn 'Desert Hawks' with SA330Js and UH-1Hs. They are not part of the Air Aviation Brigade, and thus operate autonomously, like so many other Army Aviation squadrons operating all over Pakistan.

What Next?:
With the fighting in the west showing no signs of going away, the PAA is looking to expand its inventory even further. There are around 25 more Mi-17s on order, while another 30 Bell 412EPs are expected to arrive in mid-2010 (delayed) to replace the Bell 206s. According to the GOC they will arrive with proper mounted machine guns.

The GOC acknowledges that what he needs now more than anything else is new attack helicopters. The Cobras are from a bygone era with dated technologies and now they need something more sophisticated.

In 2008 the PAA visited Spain to have a look at the Euro copter Tigre, and while the US will not export AH-64 Apaches equipped with the capable Hellfire missile it seems they are on the verge of offering the latest Cobra derivative - the AH-1 Z.(CSF Funds allocated in 2012).

Defeating the Taliban and al Qaeda in the FATA region was never going to be easy, but if the Americans really want Pakistan to oust what is the number one threat to world peace then it has to seriously look at providing the Pakistan Army Aviation with the right tools to do the right job quickly.

GOC - Siachen Glacier Ops:
A 5 'Fearless Five' Sqn AS350B3 carries an under hung load high up In the Himalayas. The unit is based at Skardu and was raised by the current GOC - Major General Tanveer Ullah Khan in luly-1999. 

The PAA GOC, Major General Tanveer Ullah Khan has been based on the Siachen Glacier: "There is no chance of survival if you have an accident because you won't last longer than 30 minutes in the extreme altitude and temperatures. So we fly in pairs, so that the other helicopter can pick the other crew if one goes down,"

He raised the 5 'Karakoram' Sqn known as the 'Fearless Five' at Skardu on July 5, 1999, during the Kargil Crisis. Today it operates Mi-17s and Ecureuils. They specialize in high altitude rescues as a mountain squadron and are manned by aircrews which special in flying at such great heights of 18-20,000ft (5,486-6,096m). Personnel spend around two years acclimatizing to the temperature, which can drop to -38, while serving the International Hiking Expedition Camp (IHEC).

The unit at Skardu started with SA 315 Lamas in early 80s before being replaced by Alouette IIIs as part of an 8 Sqn detachment.

"If we fly for more than 30 minutes above the mountains we need oxygen. We can get the bends when we descend and lose full senses of our feelings! It's a whole different way of flying, while serving the Force Command Northern Area (FCNA) based at Gilgit," says the GOC.

Personnel stay for 26 months unaccompanied at Skardu - two months and ten days on and then 20 days off, then they return for same period and come home for 20 days and so it continues until the 26 months is up. It is tough living in an igloo. Kerosene heaters mean the place is full of pungent fumes and soot gets everywhere. You can become ill very quickly unless you are used to of it. Within a week your nice new white military issue coat will be black!

Saving Tomaz Humar:
No 8 Sqn at Qaslm has won more battle honors than any other PAA squadron. Two of its pilots were awarded the Golden Order for Services by the Slovenia Government for the rescue of the climber, Tomoz Humor.

On August 10, 2005 two pilots from No 8 5qn were involved in an amazing rescue of a Slovenian climber, Tomaz Humar (34), who was trapped on a snow-capped mountain at 22,000ft (6,706m). Humar was running out of water and rescue by foot was impossible. A few initial attempts by Army helicopters were thwarted by the extreme weather.

With the world watching, General Musharraf ordered the Army Aviation to make another determined effort. At 0620, on August 10, a SA315B lama piloted by Lt. Col (now Colonel) Rashid ullah Beg with Major (now Lt. Col) Khalid Amir Rana spotted Humar stranded on a dangerous ledge trapped in an ice cave. The mission came with many practical hazards: no foothold for a single skid of a helicopter, a sheer drop on one side and deep ravines on another. There was also a huge rock 50-100ft (24-30m) above the stricken climber, which meant there was little clearance from the mountain wall.

Without any autopilot or stability augmentation system, it would be difficult to hover the lama at such high altitude.
Hovering above Humar for about ten minutes at an altitude of 22,000ft (6,706m), they managed to drop a sling hook down. Then the low-level fuel warning light flickered  there was now no margin for error. Finally, the lama pilots managed to connect the sling hook with the snow axe of the desperate Humar.

After being hauled into the helicopter, by the dangling sling rope, Humar was flown to base camp to the relief of all in Pakistan, Slovenia and the mountaineering world.

in recognition of this extraordinary display of courage and professionalism both pilots were awarded the Tamgha-Shujaat on March 23, 2006. The President of Slovenia awarded Colonel Rashid ullah Beg and Lt. Col Khalid Amlr Rana 'The Golden Order for Services' for the act of supreme bravery in rescuing Tomasz Humar from the rock wall of Nanga Parbat.

Sadly, the Slovenian climber's luck didn't hold out because on November 14, 2009 he was found dead in the Himalayas after injuring himself and becoming stranded on a 23,710ft (7,227m) mountain. He had contacted base camp five days previously after breaking his leg In a fall, but despite searches by air and on foot from Katmandu, he died in Nepal while attempting a solo climb.

Terrorist Attacks on UK Being Planned in FATA:
The UK's JTAC (Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre) raised the threat warning in the UK from 'substantial' to 'severe' on January 22. Two days later British Foreign Secretary David Milliband stated that Osama bin Laden is likely to be residing in the FATA region and that 60-70% of the terrorist attacks being planned against the UK are originating from there. Hence the Pakistan Army is in a race against time to track down al Qaeda's leader before he carries out any more atrocities.

GOC - Major General Tanveer Ullah Khan:
The General Officer Commanding of Pakistan Army Aviation, Major General Tanveer Ullah Khan.

Major General Tanveer Ullah Khan was commissioned in the 44 (SP) Regiment Artillery in October 1976 and Joined Army Aviation in March 1981. He is a Qualified Flying Instructor on both Fixed Wing and Rotary Wing with more than 3,000 hours of flying experience. A graduate of Command and Staff College and National Defense University, he has held various Command and Staff appointments at Formation Headquarters and General Headquarters. His war zone and operational area stints include leading aviation operations as a unit commander In the Siachin conflict zone during the 1999 Kargil Crisis. As an Aviation Group Commander he commanded the 101 Army Aviation Group deployed to support the GWOT effort along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. He has masterminded many successful, incisive aviation operations against Taliban and al Qaeda networks in the Pakistan-Afghanistan border region, as well as organizing and conducting one of the largest aviation relief operations during the earthquake in October 2005.

As General Officer Commanding of Pakistan Army Aviation he has been instrumental in conceiving and leading the massive heli-borne operations against Taliban strongholds in the recently conducted Swat operations. This led to the routing of the Taliban in the Malakand Division of Pakistan.

His decorations include the Tamgha-Imtiaz, Sitara-Imtiaz and Imtiazi- Sanad on account of gallantry and meriteous military service. He is married and has two sons.

Attacking the Taliban at Banda:
Major Imaad Siddique of 35 Sqn 'The Mustangs' was sitting In the crew room on alert, talking with another Cobra pilot. at Miran Shah in the FATA, on July 30, 2007. Suddenly they heard an exchange of gunfire. 

Within seconds we received the call that the nearby Army Post at Banda was under attack from the Taliban so we raced to our Cobras, with two Weapons Systems Operators who had been in the Alert Room as well.

Within 11 minutes both gunships were overhead the Post. Nearby we could see five vehicles and around 30Taliban that were advancing on the Army. Immediately I destroyed three vehicles with three TOW missiles and fired my cannon continuously at the militia in a bid to stem the attack.

Once both Cobras had exhausted their ammunition we turned back to our FOB [Forward Operating Base] to re-arm. When we touched down other Cobra pilots were still starting their helicopters, so once we had replenished our ammunition stocks we all flew back together. Upon our return we destroyed the other two vehicles and searched for the Taliban, which by now were running away.

"The whole operation took less than 30 minutes after getting the call for support. The Group Officer Commanding [GOC) of the Division thanked us for getting to the Post so quickly and the Post Commander came to visit us at Miran Shah the next day to thank us personally. For me it was definitely one of the most memorable sorties I have been involved in.''


AFM

_old article but it has some interesting details!_

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## Windjammer

Albeit, this chopper seems to be supporting PAA Roundel, never knew we had the armed version of this machine. ??

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Albeit, this chopper seems to be supporting PAA Roundel, never knew we had the armed version of this machine. ??



We had ordered an armed version, but were not satisfied with the original fit and so were sent back to be changed according to our needs.

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## Last Hope

Windjammer said:


> Albeit, this chopper seems to be supporting PAA Roundel, never knew we had the armed version of this machine. ??


We had some AS-550C3 Fennec at Chaklala. They were here for trials, and were in Pak camou and roundel. Last I know was that, it failed to meet the requirements and was not satisfying and sent back. However Oscar could be right, they could be given some modification and then induced. Didn't hear about it.


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> We had ordered an armed version, but were not satisfied with the original fit and so were sent back to be changed according to our needs.



Did we eventually get an armed version or just the utility/scout types. ??


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Did we eventually get an armed version or just the utility/scout types. ??



Current fit has been limited to the scout types..
And the armed version seems to be in limbo for now.


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## Fieldmarshal

Windjammer said:


> Did we eventually get an armed version or just the utility/scout types. ??



PA only operates the utility/scout version.
the deal for the armed version got cancelled at the very last moment and it cost some very senior officers every thing in the shape of a general court martial (plz dont ask for the details as with all news good or bad relating our armed forces, this too is supposedly classified).

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## Luftwaffe

What are the chances of limited number of Z-9W..


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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> What are the chances of limited number of Z-9W..



we're better off with the Bell 412EP's


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## Cool_Soldier

Cobra AH-1 z, from US and Euro tiger from France got cancelled.It seems there is yet no alternative for Pakistan to get fighter helicopter of better standards.


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## fatman17

Cool_Soldier said:


> *Cobra AH-1 z, from US* and Euro tiger from France got cancelled.It seems there is yet no alternative for Pakistan to get fighter helicopter of better standards.



not the case, just delayed a bit...


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## Windjammer

The Euro Tiger may not appear as impressive as some other attack helos but the damn thing can turn on it's head.

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## Icarus

Abingdonboy said:


> Csn soldering the *USMC* only recently started operating the AH-1Z I find it unlikely that there will be any AH-1Zs retired by the USMC that Pakistan can get, surely the Marines will want to keep these birds for at least another decade? Maybe Pakistan bpcan _Buy_ some new AH-1Zs from 2015 onwards but I see getting retired ones unlikely as they are way too new to be reinterred.



Thanks to Musharraf, there are up to 10 AH-1Z already paid for and slated for delivery, starting 2015-16 till 2020.


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## The Deterrent



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## JPMM

Gentleman

If you are looking for the best available helicopter, with a huge range, good carrying capacity and state of the art technology, buy EH101 Merlin. We are operating them from Açores and Madeira in the middle of the Atlantic on SAR missions and we are stunned with this new machine we bought.

Greetings from Portugal

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## Najam Khan

Since past few days I have been noticing unusual activity of Cobras in pindi. AFAIK Qasim base provides maintenance for Pumas and Mi17..but not Cobras?


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## Jango

Najam Khan said:


> Since past few days I have been noticing unusual activity of Cobras in pindi. AFAIK Qasim base provides maintenance for Pumas and Mi17..but not Cobras?



That is right. Cobras are provided maintenance at Multan (499 EME) and also Gujranwala. (i think, i might have the name of the city wrong).

Edit: Gujranwala only does some work on the TOW missiles,not cobra. Cobra only at Multan.

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## The Deterrent

Najam Khan said:


> Since past few days I have been noticing unusual activity of Cobras in pindi. AFAIK Qasim base provides maintenance for Pumas and Mi17..but not Cobras?



Don't know about cobras, but I have been noticing the regular and unusual activity of the white-painted Army Aviation Mi-17s (posted above), preceded by camouflaged Mi-17s (one or two).


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## Jango

AhaseebA said:


> Don't know about cobras, but I have been noticing the regular and unusual activity of the white-painted Army Aviation Mi-17s (posted above), preceded by camouflaged Mi-17s (one or two).



White ones are white due to different reasons.

1- They were from the UN mission. PAA usually let's some helis keep on operating with the white UN paint scheme, removing the bold UN ofcourse.

2- They are from the government of Punjab.

In the above pic, it was UN heli most probably.


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## Last Hope

Guys, if it's unusual (or usual) military hardware routine, please do not post it on public forum for various reasons, even if it's nothing sensitive. You're advised to discuss development of PAA not monitor the movement of their assets.

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## Inception-06

Ho many Mi-17 did we lost and buy since 2001 ?

I think we lost more than 10 and buy ca. 40-50 ( inlcuding ca. 10 from US and 2 from UK)

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## Windjammer

And then, there was this Bell sitting on Constitution Avenue, Islamabad, just last week. ??


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> And then, there was this Bell sitting on Constitution Avenue, Islamabad, just last week. ??



I think it was the one in which the ever eager Rehman Malik had his situation awareness trips! He always pretty quick to get a helicopter and fly!!!

This was from the MoI, flown and maintained by serving and retired (contract) PAA folks.


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> I think it was the one in which the ever eager Rehman Malik had his situation awareness trips! He always pretty quick to get a helicopter and fly!!!
> 
> This was from the MoI, flown and maintained by serving and retired (contract) PAA folks.



Yea, it seems to belong to MOI, but who was it ferrying is another question.
I'm sure the PM was summoned to court last week as well. ?? !!


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> Yea, it seems to belong to MOI, but who was it ferrying is another question.
> I'm sure the PM was summoned to court last week as well. ?? !!



The PM is very near to the SC building.

Although the possibility of RM giving some air surveillance to the PM cannot be ruled out.


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## Inception-06

Every single Helicopter of Pakistan should be used at the frontline for example wounded Soldiers, airborne Operations, close fire support, Scout Role...... and not for VIP transports !

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## fatman17

JPMM said:


> Gentleman
> 
> If you are looking for the best available helicopter, with a huge range, good carrying capacity and state of the art technology, buy EH101 Merlin. We are operating them from Açores and Madeira in the middle of the Atlantic on SAR missions and we are stunned with this new machine we bought.
> 
> Greetings from Portugal



very expensive helos!



AhaseebA said:


>



all white paint were/are helos used by PK UN peace-keeping forces.


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## Nishan_101

Pakistan Army , Pakistan Navy and Pakistan Air Force should have shown some interest in having a good deal of helicopters to the PAC to do some JV with EU countries along with China as well.
Pakistan Army:
110 EH-101
70 Panther
70 Bell-407
110 Z-10Ps

Pakistan Navy:
21 EH-101
15 Panther
7-11 Bell-407

Pakistan Air Force:
21-30 EH-101
15 Panther
7-11 Bell-407

Other requirements would be from Paramilitary forces, NDMA, Police and other agencies and also not to forget *GoPssss*.


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## Najam Khan

Nishan_101 said:


> Pakistan Army , Pakistan Navy and Pakistan Air Force should have shown some interest in having a good deal of helicopters to the PAC to do some JV with EU countries along with China as well.
> Pakistan Army:
> 110 EH-101
> 70 Panther
> 70 Bell-407
> 110 Z-10Ps
> 
> Pakistan Navy:
> 21 EH-101
> 15 Panther
> 7-11 Bell-407
> 
> Pakistan Air Force:
> 21-30 EH-101
> 15 Panther
> 7-11 Bell-407
> 
> Other requirements would be from Paramilitary forces, NDMA, Police and other agencies and also not to forget *GoPssss*.



Arey Bhai be realistic. Its 2012 and all you post is just dreams, dreams and dreams. Please see your defence budget, on-going weapons procurement/production projects, WoT and needs of your forces before making this "whish list".

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## IHK_PK

Najam Khan said:


> Arey Bhai be realistic. Its 2012 and all you post is just dreams, dreams and dreams. Please see your defence budget, on-going weapons procurement/production projects, WoT and needs of your forces before making this "whish list".



AREY BHAI SOCH RAHA HEY TO SOCHNEY DO. DAY DREAMING MAIN KIYA JATA HEY KISI KA?

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## Najam Khan

Anyone with information on this crash? Doesn't look like a crash because of ground fire.

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## Arsalan

Najam Khan said:


> Anyone with information on this crash? Doesn't look like a crash because of ground fire.



no markings on the bird??
Looks mysterious, MAYBE Photo Shop!!

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## Nishan_101

Najam Khan said:


> Anyone with information on this crash? Doesn't look like a crash because of ground fire.



PAA should take some bold step to order the first batch of 30 Z-10P Block-Is from China as its cheaper, *Better and Reliable* than ATAK. Then further adding new blocks later on. And try to canabilize old Cobras into parts.


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## Fieldmarshal

looks like a emergency/crash landing. on landing one of the skids has either been ripped clean or has got stuck in the ground.
from the terrain and the police in the back ground it looks like punjab and if thats that case than it would be either multan or some where around it.


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## Bratva

Najam Khan said:


> Anyone with information on this crash? Doesn't look like a crash because of ground fire.



Zaid Hamid on his FB page was propagating some other story related to this COBRA pic. He may fool his followers who are less interested in searching the truth behind the pic but not us 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/53996-cobra-helicopter-emergency-landing-near-kohat.html

http://www.express.com.pk/images/NP_LHE/20100412/Sub_Images/1100909494-1.jpg

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## Last Hope

I'm sure that is due to unstable landing and problem with rotator blades. To me, the Physics says they stopped working or jammed, causing the helicopter to afloat till it dropped. And it seems to be on a small altitude that the blades stopped, cause be even a second before impact, as the blades show no sign of damage which would have been caused with movement during impact.

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## Jango

When did this happen. Any rough idea?

It looks like the skid buckled, so maybe a hardish landing or soft ground.


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## Arsalan

mafiya said:


> Zaid Hamid on his FB page was propagating some other story related to this COBRA pic. He may fool his followers who are less interested in searching the truth behind the pic but not us
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/53996-cobra-helicopter-emergency-landing-near-kohat.html
> 
> http://www.express.com.pk/images/NP_LHE/20100412/Sub_Images/1100909494-1.jpg



and what was that? can you please share here?


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## Bratva

Arsalan said:


> and what was that? can you please share here?



In the ongoing operation against foreign and local militants in Waziristan, the Pakistan military has suffered a tragic loss. It is doubly tragic because it has gone unreported and unremarked in the media. Last month, a helicopter gunship of the Pak military made its way to targets in Waziristan and received the coordinates for its strike just before arriving at the target. This is Standard Operating Procedure, coordinates are given out at the nth hour to preserve secrecy and security. As the pilot came into view of his target, he radioed back that there appeared to be a mistake in identifying the target. "There's a mosque, madrassah, women and children here" the pilot radioed back, as he hovered over the area. He then turned in an arch to fly out of the area. Just as he was being radioed back a message that this indeed was the target, a group of bearded men emerged from within the mosque and from behind the human shields of the assembled women and children, and shot Rocket Propelled Grenades at the heli and brought it down. The pilot and his co-pilot were both killed.

Hot Features: Such Gup


Obviously, Najam took this photo from his page as the context and picture didnot matched, so he put it here to clear his doubts.

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## Inception-06

Christian girl accused of blasphemy freed in Pakistan - no comment - YouTube


notice the board machiene Gun calibre 7.62 mm on this Pakistani UH-1, it is not the MG-3 !

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VUtEQVLp63M/0.jpg


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## umair86pk

Its a Belgian FN MAG

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## Jango

Heres a better image of the FN MAG model 60-30, one used for aircraft and helis.

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## fatman17

mafiya said:


> In the ongoing operation against foreign and local militants in Waziristan, the Pakistan military has suffered a tragic loss. It is doubly tragic because it has gone unreported and unremarked in the media. Last month, a helicopter gunship of the Pak military made its way to targets in Waziristan and received the coordinates for its strike just before arriving at the target. This is Standard Operating Procedure, coordinates are given out at the nth hour to preserve secrecy and security. As the pilot came into view of his target, he radioed back that there appeared to be a mistake in identifying the target. "There's a mosque, madrassah, women and children here" the pilot radioed back, as he hovered over the area. He then turned in an arch to fly out of the area. Just as he was being radioed back a message that this indeed was the target, a group of bearded men emerged from within the mosque and from behind the human shields of the assembled women and children, and shot Rocket Propelled Grenades at the heli and brought it down. The pilot and his co-pilot were both killed.
> 
> Hot Features: Such Gup
> 
> 
> Obviously, Najam took this photo from his page as the context and picture didnot matched, so he put it here to clear his doubts.




*Hot Features: Such Gup*

the heading says it all.

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## Windjammer



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## Nishan_101

Windjammer said:


>



Wish to see all the upgraded Cobras along with INDIAN borders from North to South and 30 Z-10Ps Block-I in near future. Ameen.

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## valkyr_96

does anyone have a pic/video of the rocket pods being used?....its always TOW/Bakthar Shikan

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## fatman17

*Police commandoes being trained in aerial surveillance * 

Shakeel Anjum

Friday, November 02, 2012 

Islamabad



The Islamabad Police have acquired two choppers for aerial surveillance to effectively counter terrorism and heinous crimes in the metropolis. 



The authorities have decided to give aerial surveillance training to police officers on army technique. The training of police officers started on Thursday at the Police Line Headquarters.



As many as 30 commandoes of the Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) of Islamabad Police are being trained in aerial surveillance to curb terror activities and to dismount on the hideouts of criminals from helicopters, the police spokesman said.



In this regard, a demonstration was held at the Police Line Headquarters. IGP (Islamabad) Bani-Amin Khan, DIG (Headquarters) Dr. Sultan Azam Temuri, AIG (Operations) Tahir Alam Khan, AIG (Special Branch) Waqar Chohan, SSP (Headquarters) Muhammad Yousuf Malik, SSP (Islamabad) Yasin Farooq, SSP (Traffic) Dr. Moeen Masood, SSP (Security) Mir Vais Niaz, all zonal SPs, SDPOs and SHOs were present on the occasion.



As many as 30 commandoes presented a demonstration on mounting, dismounting and repelling on helicopters. The aim of the training is to curb activities of terrorists and approach the crime scene without failure. Besides this, the surveillance of criminals and terrorists and safety of citizens and their properties would be made possible.



IGP (Islamabad) Bani-Amin Khan and other senior police officers 



appreciated the performance of Islamabad Police. The IGP also awarded shields to the officers and commandoes of Islamabad Police who are getting trained in aerial surveillance and monitoring of terrorists and criminals. 


NI

do we know the type of Helos?

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## Jango

Isl police acquiring helicopters? Did we miss that news? Or was it just a plain transfer of some helos from MoI to Police?

My bet would be either the UH-1H operated out of Isl Heliport, or the AW139 that were bought for SAR and VIP duties. Pilots might still be of PA and also the technicians. Only the commandos might be trained in repelling and other techniques.

BTW, would be interesting to know what _surveillance techniques_ PA uses. I had a chat with the pilot of a heli circling Lal Masjid during the operation, and his narrative was a bit shocking TBH.


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## Najam Khan

nuclearpak said:


> Isl police acquiring helicopters? Did we miss that news? Or was it just a plain transfer of some helos from MoI to Police?
> 
> My bet would be either the UH-1H operated out of Isl Heliport, or the *AW139 that were bought for SAR and VIP duties*. Pilots might still be of PA and also the technicians. Only the commandos might be trained in repelling and other techniques.



They use AW139 for SAR as well? And exactly how many of them PA/GoP procured?


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## Jango

Najam Khan said:


> They use AW139 for SAR as well? And exactly how many of them PA/GoP procured?



5 were bought, 2 for VIP duties and 3 for SAR.

Serial numbers start from six-050 to six-054. All the helis were reportedly delivered by Oct 2009.

Six in the serial number denotes 6 Aviation Squadron based at Isl Heliport (SAR/disaster relief squadron)


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## Najam Khan

nuclearpak said:


> 5 were bought, 2 for VIP duties and 3 for SAR.
> 
> Serial numbers start from six-050 to six-054. All the helis were reportedly delivered by Oct 2009.
> 
> Six in the serial number denotes 6 Aviation Squadron based at Isl Heliport (SAR/disaster relief squadron)



And here are some photos of Six-050 enroute to GHQ.

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## Jango

Most photos are of 050 and 052,with 052 featuring mostly in SAR duties. Maybe then 050 and 051 are for VIP (VIP versions were the ones first delivered).

But here is one of Six-054






Picture courtesy Historyofpia.com

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## Inception-06

For the price of this 6 AgustaWestland AW139 Pakistan could had buy Bell 12 UH-1 as we have the infrastructure and spare parts of the Bell UH-1 series in our sortiment.........I cant understand this decision !


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## Fieldmarshal

Ulla said:


> For the price of this 6 AgustaWestland AW139 Pakistan could had buy Bell 12 UH-1 as we have the infrastructure and spare parts of the Bell UH-1 series in our sortiment.........I cant understand this decision !



why would they want UH 1 its ancient and no is manufacturing spares for it no more. if we want we can have them for free as thousands are parked in the junkyards all over america.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Ulla said:


> For the price of this 6 AgustaWestland AW139 Pakistan could had buy Bell 12 UH-1 as we have the infrastructure and spare parts of the Bell UH-1 series in our sortiment.........I cant understand this decision !


they are nothing more than junk
they are history now


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## Edevelop

There is so much confusion out there. Will Pakistan go for WZ-10 or T-129? or both?


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## Najam Khan

nuclearpak said:


> Most photos are of 050 and 052,with 052 featuring mostly in SAR duties. Maybe then 050 and 051 are for VIP (VIP versions were the ones first delivered).
> [/IMG]




Some Serials of these heliz
C/N ID In this Organisation
31248 SIX-050: Pakistan ERC d/d May09
31249 SIX-051: Pakistan ERC d/d Oct09
31258 SIX-052: Pakistan ERC d/d Aug09
31261  SIX-053: Pakistan ERC d/d Aug09
31263 SIX-054: Pakistan ERC d/d Sep09

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## Inception-06

wasm95 said:


> they are nothing more than junk
> they are history now



If they are "Junk" why they are still in service ? also there are newer versions of Bell which have buy Be-412 and could buy !


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## Jango

Ulla said:


> If they are "Junk" why they are still in service ? also there are newer versions of Bell which have buy Be-412 and could buy !



UH-1H is a old and tiring heli.

Bell 412-EP is in service with PA.


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## Fieldmarshal

Ulla said:


> If they are "Junk" why they are still in service ? also there are newer versions of Bell which have buy Be-412 and could buy !



they are serving on the fringes.
i think u ment bell-412 and not uh-1.


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> UH-1H is a old and tiring heli.
> 
> Bell 412-EP is in service with PA.



hundreds of UH-1H's are being refurbished world-wide. they are excellent multi-purpose helos

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## fatman17

are there hardned silos for helos.?
i've only seen helos parked in the open or under soft-skin structures like we have at qasim AB (multan)


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## Aamir Hussain

One of the most robust helo platforms out there. With the MI series it is one of the most used helos and the support base and infrastructure is huge, worldwide. There are atleast 52% spare parts common between AH series and the Utility version.

Pakistan is already operating both types and wish to continue operating the AH series in the near future as well.

For police use, med. lift helos are uneconomical but lighter utility types would dothe job. Typically these brids need to be in the air on a dialy basis and the operatingcost is a major consideration. Eucerils/Hughes 500/Z- series Chinese machines can dothe job very well. 

Equipped with million candle light search lights and themal imaging, these utilitiy machines can by the eyes in the sky and help in surveilllance and tracking. 

Unfortunately, the VIP use dictates our buy.

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> are there hardned silos for helos.?
> i've only seen helos parked in the open or under soft-skin structures like we have at qasim AB (multan)



I dont think so, nor have I seen any, Qasim AAB Dhamial, Khalid (quetta), Rahwali etc.

Isn't Qasim AAB at Dhamial?


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## Jango

A little something I have.

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## Jango



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## hassan1




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## krash

nuclearpak said:


> A little something I have.



The story behind this please.


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## Jango

krash said:


> The story behind this please.



Everest - Mount Everest by climbers, news

See this link.

A attempt by Eurocopter and a company to land on top of the Everest.

Fieldmarshal beat me to it!


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## krash

Fieldmarshal said:


> Helicopter on Everest makes History | GreatOutdoors.com





nuclearpak said:


> Everest - Mount Everest by climbers, news
> 
> See this link.
> 
> A attempt by Eurocopter and a company to land on top of the Everest.
> 
> Fieldmarshal beat me to it!



I am aware of this. What I was wondering is how the connection of it to the Pakistani army aviation.

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## fatman17

*Turkey, Pakistan Seek Better Ties*


But Money Short For Defense Deals

Nov. 24, 2012 - 01:16PM | By USMAN ANSARI 

Turkey is also pushing for its T-129 ATAK helicopter gunship to replace Pakistan&#8217;s AH-1F Cobras. 


ISLAMABAD &#8212; Turkey is trying to broaden defense industry links with Pakistan, but Pakistan&#8217;s poor financial situation is hampering efforts.

That opens the door to a possible deal with China, experts said, which carries its own set of issues.

&#8220;Pakistan is one of our closest partners in defense, and they are already buying a lot of equipment from us,&#8221; said a senior official responsible for foreign relations at Turkey&#8217;s Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM). &#8220;We would do whatever we can to further boost our cooperation.&#8221;

Former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, agrees.

&#8220;The recent visit by Turkey&#8217;s defense undersecretary was an indicator that Turkey remains committed to developing defense relations further,&#8221; he said.

Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said Turkey is a valued supplier that &#8220;offers [Pakistan] a route to Western technology&#8221; such as previously purchased NATO standard communication equipment.

Turkey&#8217;s efforts were showcased at Pakistan&#8217;s biannual defense fair, the Nov. 7-11 International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS).

Turkish defense software and systems integration firm Havelsan secured orders for its shipboard Genesis C4I combat management system, and is negotiating a memorandum of understanding with the Pakistani military to further co-develop simulators for JF-17, F-16, C-130 and MFI-17 Mushak/Super Mushak aircraft.

But completion of large-scale deals remains elusive.

At IDEAS 2008, Havelsan project management firm STM and defense electronics company Aselsan promoted a Pakistani-specific corvette based on Turkey&#8217;s MILGEM/Ada program, which also sought to maximize the participation of Pakistan&#8217;s private industry based on Turkey&#8217;s defense industrial experience.

This stalled due to a lack of Pakistani financial resources, but at IDEAS 2012, a Havelsan spokesman said there had been &#8220;some progress in the right direction.&#8221;

An official linked to Pakistan&#8217;s naval industry said he thought the &#8220;opportunity has passed&#8221; and both parties had &#8220;gone their separate ways and are working on their own.&#8221;

Pakistan does not have the required indigenous design experience, so this may be a ruse to lower the price of a Turkish proposal. Turkey might propose a more affordable alternative, the SSM official said.

&#8220;Turkey would do its ultimate to boost cooperation in the field of naval vessels,&#8221; he said, and these may include the type of ships produced by Turkey&#8217;s Yonca Onuk yard, which promoted its MRTP-24 and MRTP-44 concepts at IDEAS 2012.

Turkey is also now pushing its T-129 ATAK helicopter gunship to replace Pakistan&#8217;s AH-1F Cobras.

&#8220;Our aim is to export these helicopters to friendly countries, and we will continue to work toward that end,&#8221; the SSM official said.

More attack helicopters are &#8220;essential&#8221; for Pakistan to conduct operations in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, &#8220;notably North Waziristan,&#8221; Cloughley said.

The previously touted deal to acquire the U.S. AH-1Z helicopter is now unlikely to occur, he said. The Pentagon has stated that domestic orders for the AH-1Z must be approved first, and congressional opposition also is likely, he said. The T-129 is &#8220;the best alternative,&#8221; he said.

Gorkem Bilgi of Turkish Aerospace Industries said that the T-129 had been extensively adapted to suit Turkish military requirements, but climatic and topographical similarities between Pakistan and Turkey and similar mission profile requirements make it ideally suited for Pakistan&#8217;s needs.

Bilgi said the T-129 would be indigenous except for the U.S.-sourced LHTEC CTS800-4A engines.

Establishing a second production line for export orders would deliver the first helicopter &#8220;after 36 months.&#8221; However, negotiations for approximately 15 helicopters have stalled due to Pakistan&#8217;s poor finances.

Cloughley highlights Pakistan&#8217;s &#8220;extremely large&#8221; commitment in the Tribal Areas, its &#8220;enormous&#8221; operating costs that will increase as winter sets in, plus the likelihood of having to deploy more units due to growing pressure from militants.

&#8220;There will therefore be less cash for acquisition of capital equipment, and attack helicopters do not come cheap,&#8221; he said.

Though Turkey &#8220;cannot afford to indulge in charity,&#8221; it may be possible &#8220;to cobble together a deal, perhaps involving offsets, that Pakistan could afford, but it will take a lot of negotiation,&#8221; he said.

Bilgi said a budgetary proposal was made to Pakistan, but he did not provide details.

&#8220;It could be possible to discuss these issues with Pakistan, according to requirements of the customer in the near future,&#8221; Bilgi said.

Neither the SSM official nor Bilgi would provide a unit cost.

Zafar Jaspal, director and associate professor of the School of Politics and International Relations at Quaid-e-Azam University in Pakistan, said a deal worth up to $500 million for 15 T-129s may yet be affordable.

He said Pakistan may potentially draw on the Coalition Support Fund (CSF), &#8220;because these helicopters could be required for military operations against terrorist groups.&#8221;

The CSF reimburses Pakistan for services rendered in support of the International Security Assistance Force&#8217;s Afghan mission. In July, $1.18 billion was released for the period July 2010-May 2011.

The China Option

Jaspal concedes China may be the only alternative.

The problem is that China&#8217;s CAIC WZ-10 helicopter is new and untested, and not developed from a combat-tested design, such as the T-129, he said.

The SSM official said Turkey is not out to compete with China. &#8220;China is an important country in Asia and they have such an influence on the naval and air platforms. ... It is their [Pakistan&#8217;s and China&#8217;s] business in that part of the world.&#8221;

Though the &#8220;T-129 is a very good prospect,&#8221; Shabbir said, Turkey will not be &#8220;able to offer a very generous economic package, which the Chinese are very good at.&#8221;

He said the WZ-10 is viewed as Pakistan&#8217;s long-term insurance policy in the absence of an alternative, but as it matures, &#8220;might become the preferred choice.&#8221;

Cloughley concurs, but said, &#8220;it would take a long time for such a deal to be brokered.&#8221;

Ultimately, Shabbir said, it will come down to technological and performance comparisons, though the Western engine may count against the T-129 due to Pakistan&#8217;s fear of sanctions.

&#8220;The Pakistani-Turkish relationship is going to thrive,&#8221; he said. &#8220;The only thing limiting it is [Pakistan&#8217;s] dire financial situation, but it is not going to be like this in the long term. Things are only going to get better.&#8221;


Umit Enginsoy and Burak Ege Bekdil contributed to this report from Ankara.

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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> *Turkey, Pakistan Seek Better Ties*
> 
> Ultimately, Shabbir said, it will come down to technological and performance comparisons, though the Western engine may count against the T-129 due to Pakistan&#8217;s fear of sanctions.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-aviation-corps-updated-59.html#ixzz2DhgwpvPg
> 
> &#8220;The Pakistani-Turkish relationship is going to thrive,&#8221; he said. &#8220;The only thing limiting it is [Pakistan&#8217;s] dire financial situation, but it is not going to be like this in the long term. Things are only going to get better.&#8221;



If they fear of sanctions then why they are not going for Z-10, i bet its better then T-129.


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## Last Hope



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## Dr. Strangelove

danger-zone said:


> If they fear of sanctions then why they are not going for Z-10, i bet its better then T-129.


nothings final yet 
i believe we will go for z10


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## TaimiKhan

danger-zone said:


> If they fear of sanctions then why they are not going for Z-10, i bet its better then T-129.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/94-pakistan-army-news-discussions-19.html#post3653762


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## alimobin memon

Time showed itself why Pakistan army rejected Tiger Attack helicopter... Pilots feel unsafe for its low altitude and Cant bear fumes from the cockpit material...


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## fatman17

*The Euro copter Fennec Saga.*

Philippines department of national defense (DND) has revealed that the Philippines air force (PAF) has lost out on a chance to purchase ten weaponised Euro copter AS550C3 Fennec attack helicopters from France. They had been ordered by the Pakistan Army in 2007 and although all had been built by around 2010, they were not delivered and have remained in storage at the factory in Marignane, France, due to unspecified problems with the deal. As a result they were recently offered for sale on the open market. 

After the problems with the deal, the helicopters remained undelivered and had been offered to the Philippines Air Force (PAF), but it now seems they will after all eventually still go to Pakistan.

AFD

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## Armstrong

fatman17 said:


> *The Euro copter Fennec Saga.*
> 
> Philippines department of national defense (DND) has revealed that the Philippines air force (PAF) has lost out on a chance to purchase ten weaponised Euro copter AS550C3 Fennec attack helicopters from France. They had been ordered by the Pakistan Army in 2007 and although all had been built by around 2010, they were not delivered and have remained in storage at the factory in Marignane, France, due to unspecified problems with the deal. As a result they were recently offered for sale on the open market.
> 
> After the problems with the deal, the helicopters remained undelivered and had been offered to the Philippines Air Force (PAF), but it now seems they will after all eventually still go to Pakistan.
> 
> AFD



What are we planning on using them for ? Are they comparable to our Cobras ?


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## fatman17

Armstrong said:


> What are we planning on using them for ? Are they comparable to our Cobras ?



no they are comparable to the Bell 412's - armoured light recee helos. they are equipped with side mounted Mg's and rocket pods or gun pods.

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## TOPGUN

Last Hope said:


>




Thanks for the beautyful pic however, doesn't this look like its on the deck of the OHP we have ?


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## Armstrong

fatman17 said:


> no they are comparable to the Bell 412's - armoured light recee helos. they are equipped with side mounted Mg's and rocket pods or gun pods.



So they are not for COIN operations I presume ?


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> no they are comparable to the Bell 412's - armoured light recee helos. they are equipped with side mounted Mg's and rocket pods or gun pods.



Aren't the Bell 412's bigger than this AS350 type?

It has more weight capacity, more pax capacity etc. Bell 412 isn't a light  recce helo.


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Aren't the Bell 412's bigger than this AS350 type?
> 
> It has more weight capacity, more pax capacity etc. Bell 412 isn't a light  recce helo.



i was comparing the 'role'


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## Nishan_101

PAA should place an order for about 30-50 Z-10Ps now as they need such capable helis...


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## Blackpearl

Armstrong said:


> What are we planning on using them for ? Are they comparable to our Cobras ?



They are replacing Bell Jet Rangers II & III, held with PAA. There role will be Armed Recon/ Scout for Cobra helos.

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## Gentelman

danger-zone said:


> If they fear of sanctions then why they are not going for Z-10, i bet its better then T-129.



T-129 is great.....and it's without any issue..
while WZ-10 is facing engine problem....
why dont t
PAF store spare which can be come under sanctions??
i hope what ever they select they decide it soon.......


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## Thorough Pro

PA would probably try to squeeze some more Cobras from US under Coalition support for WOT. In the long run they should go with Chinese platform with some local participation in mfg/assy.


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## Jango

Maybe some ceremony that's why there are plants and other stuff around?

When were these new camo ones inducted?

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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> Maybe some ceremony that's why there are plants and other stuff around?
> 
> When were these new camo ones inducted?


not new camo sir jee old Jordanian cobras you forget the story ?

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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> not new camo sir jee old Jordanian cobras you forget the story ?



Yeah I know about the Jordanian cobras, but the place where I got the pic from mentioned them as new!!! 

Well that place was Facebook, so credibility goes out the drain!!!


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> Yeah I know about the Jordanian cobras, but the place where I got the pic from mentioned them as new!!!
> 
> Well that place was Facebook, so credibility goes out the drain!!!



no they were upgraded not new sir you are right abut credibility


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## Jango

Scratch that, this pic is from before 2010.


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## Mian H Amin.

Tarbela aviation base was used extensively during operation rah-i-rast. I think squadrons of AH-1F cobra helicopters, Bell 412 and MI-17 were temporarily placed there in May last year. On google earth, it seems not as a big base, rather an airstrip only. so permanently may not be occupied. However, being in closer to SSG HQ, a small flight of MI-17s may be stationed there as a quick reaction force, to ferry anywhere in the country.

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## airomerix

Imran Khan said:


> not new camo sir jee old Jordanian cobras you forget the story ?



Which story? Sounds interesting


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## Inception-06

airomerix said:


> Which story? Sounds interesting



are you not from pakistandefence.com the old forum ,if yes welcome ; I am Alkhalid-19


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## razgriz19

wasm95 said:


> they are nothing more than junk
> they are history now



I hope you realize that Cobra is basically a skinny version of UH-1.
But they are still flying!


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## razgriz19

why isn't Denel Rooivalk being considered?
We already have bought certain weapons from South Africa so why not consider this chopper?
As operational capability wise, this would be a much better choice as it shares engine and other components with PUMA, that's already in service.

I'm pretty sure Denel would be willing to upgrade the chopper according to PA needs.


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## gangsta_rap

razgriz19 said:


> why isn't Denel Rooivalk being considered?
> We already have bought certain weapons from South Africa so why not consider this chopper?
> As operational capability wise, this would be a much better choice as it shares engine and other components with PUMA, that's already in service.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Denel would be willing to upgrade the chopper according to PA needs.



Here's what I think why:
1)the Rooivalk is way too expensive when you compare it's unit cost with other gunships.Price/affordability and the possibility of "soft loans" from the sellers probably contribute a lot into the decision.
2)South Africa is way closer to India than us unfortunately, so Indian pressure can very much turn a possible arms deal into something ugly.
3)Sanctions,its pretty big ****** and a deal regarding the Rooivalk wont be safe from it.

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## airomerix

Ulla said:


> are you not from pakistandefence.com the old forum ,if yes welcome ; I am Alkhalid-19



Glad to meet you once again. Its odd to be a lieutenant and Captain here after being Generals at PDF. Good old days!

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## Inception-06

airomerix said:


> Glad to meet you once again. Its odd to be a lieutenant and Captain here after being Generals at PDF. Good old days!



yes sad but true, but than again, welcome back to the frontline !

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## Blackpearl

A lot of flying and media coverage to grey coloured Huey IIs of Interior Ministry in Islamabad, did somebody notice machine gun fixed on the right door, dont have the pic!


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## Rocky rock

Blackpearl said:


> A lot of flying and media coverage to grey coloured Huey IIs of Interior Ministry in Islamabad, did somebody notice machine gun fixed on the right door, dont have the pic!



Yea That's bell 412 i think so wtx so special in that if they have mounted the gun on one side?


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## Jango

Rocky rock said:


> Yea That's bell 412 i think so wtx so special in that if they have mounted the gun on one side?



Nope.

That was a UH-1H of the Cabinet division operated from Isl Heliport near Sports Complex.
@Blackpearl, it was the same heli we saw in that Ramsha Maseeh case, the MG was mounted there as well and we discussed that in the forum.


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## Inception-06

Rocky rock said:


> Yea That's bell 412 i think so wtx so special in that if they have mounted the gun on one side?



Because, before 2001 not a single Pakistan Helicopter had a board gun, which was very stupid, but the Army did get his lessons since the war against the so called " Militants" started and Pakistan Army did try to use Helis without board gun.....................................even still now the Pakistani Mi-17, Fennec and Puma have not a board gun or any weapon for self defence or fire support......... ( the BENGALI; AFGHAN and INDIAN Mi-17 have it


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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> Nope.
> 
> That was a UH-1H of the Cabinet division operated from Isl Heliport near Sports Complex.
> @Blackpearl, it was the same heli we saw in that Ramsha Maseeh case, the MG was mounted there as well and we discussed that in the forum.


which post you are referring


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## Rocky rock

Ulla said:


> Because, before 2001 not a single Pakistan Helicopter had a board gun, which was very stupid, but the Army did get his lessons since the war against the so called " Militants" started and Pakistan Army did try to use Helis without board gun.....................................even still now the Pakistani Mi-17, Fennec and Puma have not a board gun or any weapon for self defence or fire support......... ( the BENGALI; AFGHAN and INDIAN Mi-17 have it



Yea that's not beacuse in every helo of pak military there is guy sittin holdin MG-3


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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> which post you are referring



Post 914 previous page

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## Jango

Ulla said:


> ..., Fennec



Fennec/Ecueril has a board gun?

I doubt it?


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## Inception-06

Rocky rock said:


> Yea that's not beacuse in every helo of pak military there is guy sittin holdin MG-3



I did not get your point ?



nuclearpak said:


> Fennec/Ecueril has a board gun?
> 
> I doubt it?




read my post plz again, I did write that it has NOT board gun !


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## Jango

Ulla said:


> read my post plz again, I did write that it has NOT board gun !



My point was that the Fennec does not have the provision to install a board gun, in any army.


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## Inception-06

nuclearpak said:


> My point was that the Fennec does not have the provision to install a board gun, in any army.




Gun pods can be added !


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## Jango

Ulla said:


> Gun pods can be added !



Gun/Rocket pods are not board guns.


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## Inception-06

nuclearpak said:


> Gun/Rocket pods are not board guns.



my main point was that every singele Helicopter in Pakoistan Army aviation should be armed ! board gun or Gun pods what ever !


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## Jango

Ulla said:


> my main point was that every singele Helicopter in Pakoistan Army aviation should be armed ! board gun or Gun pods what ever !



Not practical.

You have to maintain those weapons. Secondly, they also affect mobility, i.e embarking/dis-embarking of troops from the heli. The Mi-17 board gun is on the ramp I believe, another headache.

So it is not practical. And I don't think it is difficult to place a board gun. If we can re assemble a Alouette or Lama in 4 hours on the tarmac then we could also place a board gun IMO.

I'll tell you more about board guns in PAA tomorrow.

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## Rocky rock

Ulla said:


> I did not get your point ?
> 
> i said that in our helicopters there's a solder inside holding MG-3 that's why they don't need to mount the Machine gun on it....jxt kiddin


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## Blackpearl

Rocky rock said:


> Ulla said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did not get your point ?
> 
> i said that in our helicopters there's a solder inside holding MG-3 that's why they don't need to mount the Machine gun on it....jxt kiddin
> 
> 
> 
> Pak Aviation uses only MG1A3 machine guns which are mounted on only Bell 412 helos, no other helo is having door mounted gun but Bell 412, Cobra is a dedicated gunship with 20 mm gun (3 barrels)
> MoI helos which are Huey II come with 2 types of guns, M240 or GAU-17 minigun (Gatlings), these are mounted on sides and operated by crew,
> still not clear why to have gun on only one side, should be on both sides!
Click to expand...

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## Rocky rock

Blackpearl said:


> Rocky rock said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pak Aviation uses only MG1A3 machine guns which are mounted on only Bell 412 helos, no other helo is having door mounted gun but Bell 412, Cobra is a dedicated gunship with 20 mm gun (3 barrels)
> MoI helos which are Huey II come with 2 types of guns, M240 or GAU-17 minigun (Gatlings), these are mounted on sides and operated by crew,
> still not clear why to have gun on only one side, should be on both sides!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HAHA Nyc joke...if they'll mount the gun on both sides so from which side soldiers will get in to heli...LMAO!
Click to expand...


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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ck-helicopter-being-evaluated-pakistan-2.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...10-attack-helicopter-armed-8x-hj-10-atgm.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/28110-new-pakistan-military-helicopters.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...future-chopper-t129-atak-fire-test-video.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/3022-need-attack-helicopter-7.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ou-were-authorized-helo-would-you-prefer.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/221313-wz10-t-129-thats-question.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/84350-wz-10-attack-helicopter-thread-11.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-wa...129-atak-combat-helicopter-3.html#post3834057


I urge members not to make any new vs thread on wz10/t129 -- Ive merged some threads but still have so many threads scattered on the same topic -- please go through/post in these threads and dont start new ones
ty


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## Abingdonboy

Guys- the PA operates the IAR 330s- are there any plans to upgrade them with the SOCAT package?


----------



## Jango

Abingdonboy said:


> Guys- the PA operates the IAR 330s- are there any plans to upgrade them with the SOCAT package?



I don't think so at the moment, no.

PAA has FLIR's on it's Mi-17's, and the cobras do the attack role to PA's satisfaction, and a further costly upgrade to SOCAT for the Puma's isn't really on the cards at the moment.

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## Abingdonboy

nuclearpak said:


> I don't think so at the moment, no.
> 
> PAA has FLIR's on it's Mi-17's, and the cobras do the attack role to PA's satisfaction, and a further costly upgrade to SOCAT for the Puma's isn't really on the cards at the moment.



Fair enough, I just thought that given the Russians aren't willing to give the weapons package to the PAA's MIL-17-V5s the SOCAT upg would provide some very lethal firepower for helos engaging in utility and support missions ie not dedicated gunships like Cobras.


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## Jango

Abingdonboy said:


> *Fair enough, I just thought that given the Russians aren't willing to give the weapons package to the PAA's MIL-17-V5s* the SOCAT upg would provide some very lethal firepower for helos engaging in utility and support missions ie not dedicated gunships like Cobras.



Where you heard the bolded part? Just curious...

As I understand, PA never asked the Russian to give the Mil's a weapons package.

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## Abingdonboy

nuclearpak said:


> Where you heard the bolded part? Just curious...
> 
> As I understand, PA never asked the Russian to give the Mil's a weapons package.



I had heard this from a retd IAF officer who was the defence attache in Moscow fr 14 months in the mid-2000s. He tells me the Russians personally assured him that they would not be selling any offensive equipment to Pakistan that could be used to kill Indians. Although the MIL-17-V5 wan't specifically mentioned.


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## Jango

Abingdonboy said:


> I had heard this from a retd IAF officer who was the defence attache in Moscow fr 14 months in the mid-2000s. He tells me the Russians personally assured him that they would not be selling any offensive equipment to Pakistan that could be used to kill Indians. Although the MIL-17-V5 wan't specifically mentioned.



Oh yeah...everybody knows about that commitment by the Russians to the Indians.

But I don't think that the PA really wants it's Mils in a offensive role with rockets and guns, or the Pumas. Cobras are doing it, backed up with Bell 412's/UH-1H. 

BTW, I am pretty sure PA can make a system for a LMG on the rear door of a Mil, or a couple of rockets like Baktar Shikan on Mi-17.

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## airomerix

With the long bow on the cards on Indian army, we need to atleast get our hands on few squadrons of twin engine cobra's. Battle proven and excellent performers.

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## Jango



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## Jango



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## umair86pk

Two Army Mi-17s flying over Lahore


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## S-A-B-E-R->

^^was about to say the same ...two dark green Mi 17 just flew over the wapda town PIA society area...any thing special going on cuz its becoming frequent now days.


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## Jango

umair86pk said:


> Two Army Mi-17s flying over Lahore



They were flying in relation to His Highness King Zardari visiting his estate in Bahria Town lahore.

They were providing aerial surveillance (naam ki) and ferrying protocol officers.

Then I think he also visited Data Darbar in a Mi-17, or was it AW139 (not sure about it).

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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> They were flying in relation to His Highness King Zardari visiting his estate in Bahria Town lahore.
> 
> They were providing aerial surveillance (naam ki) and ferrying protocol officers.
> 
> Then I think he also visited Data Darbar in a *Mi-17, or was it AW139 (not sure about it).*



There are a few Dark Green - Grayish Green MI-17 in PA. Just like the Puma (above picture) & Bell-414.


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## Jango

danger-zone said:


> There are a few Dark Green - Grayish Green MI-17 in PA. Just like the Puma (above picture) & Bell-414.



Well I haven't seen or heard of any Pak army Mi-17 having dark olive green colour scheme, only PAF has those.

Or has it come in the latest Mi-17's that have come, if any? I don't know if any new Mi-17's have come from any place.

Can you find any pics?


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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> Well I haven't seen or heard of any Pak army Mi-17 having dark olive green colour scheme, only PAF has those.
> 
> Or has it come in the latest Mi-17's that have come, if any? I don't know if any new Mi-17's have come from any place.
> 
> Can you find any pics?



Sure I can share the pic, but first have to dive in my hard drive 

--------------------------------------------------------------

Ahh ... So what u know, its picture already here on your very own PDF. @nuclearpak

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## DANGER-ZONE

there you go a few more,

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## Jango

So all the helis are V-5 models, so comparatively new.

And in the first pic, the serial number is 58630, while 58634 is painted in the multi cam scheme.

Anyways, thanks for the info.


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## Jango

Well there is the answer to a question raised sometimes ago that why doesn't PA have door guns on it's helos.

The heli looks like a Bell 412 to me.

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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Well there is the answer to a question raised sometimes ago that why doesn't PA have door guns on it's helos.
> 
> The heli looks like a Bell 412 to me.


The guns would be attached when needed. And yes this is a 412.


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## S.U.R.B.

Pardon the quality of the image(wasn't a proper camera).
Else the Mi-17 ,if you zoom in to the left you can see, two Bell 412 in dark brown horizontal stripes which belong to SPD i guess.​

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## Fieldmarshal

S.U.R.B. said:


> Pardon the quality of the image(wasn't a proper camera).
> Else the Mi-17 ,if you zoom in to the left you can see, two Bell 412 in dark brown horizontal stripes which belong to SPD i guess.​



u guessed right

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## Jango

Is that Dhamial in the above pic?

BTW, anybody got any info on ISI helicopters...?

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## Fieldmarshal

nuclearpak said:


> Is that Dhamial in the above pic?
> 
> BTW, anybody got any info on ISI helicopters...?



that is dhamial

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## fatman17

*China Shows Off New Attack Helo*


Feb 14, 2013

By Wendell Minnick


Tags: Attack helicopter, China, WZ-10


A new video demonstrating the capabilities of China&#8217;s newest attack helicopter, WZ-10, was aired on China&#8217;s CCTV on February 13. This particular video shows an extraordinary amount of detail not seen before. Built by Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation, the WZ-10 has a semi-stealth configuration.



nuclearpak said:


> Is that Dhamial in the above pic?
> 
> BTW, anybody got any info on ISI helicopters...?



they fly the ultra-light Sweizier 500 helos...! (cant spell it)


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## Donatello

How easy is it to maintain Mi17s?

Like are Russians easy with the spares?


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## Jango

Donatello said:


> How easy is it to maintain Mi17s?
> 
> Like are Russians easy with the spares?



From what I have heard...yes.

We have airframe overhaul facilities for them (at Karachi I think)...we have a very big maintenance structure for these helos, afterall we sent a whole lot of folks to Kazan to get training.

The only stuff Mi-17's go out for is for engine and transmission overhaul, and this along with spares is no real problem for us as Russia is very happy to give us this stuff.



fatman17 said:


> they fly the ultra-light Sweizier 500 helos...! (cant spell it)



Schweizer...BTW what is a Schweizer 500??? I haven't heard of that before, and google doesn't give anything.

I heard they have some Ecuerils as well...


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## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> How easy is it to maintain Mi17s?
> 
> Like are Russians easy with the spares?


Yes to both. 


nuclearpak said:


> Schweizer...BTW what is a Schweizer 500??? I haven't heard of that before, and google doesn't give anything.
> 
> I heard they have some Ecuerils as well...


Here is a picture of Major Zahid Bair Shaheed with his Schweizer 500:


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


>



That's a Schweizer 300.

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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> That's a Schweizer 300.


My bad, but the Major died in Schweizer 500 crash in river Chenab.


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## S.U.R.B.

EC AS.350B3 *Ecureuil*












nuclearpak said:


> A little something I have.





krash said:


> The story behind this please.



Is just that they operate those at skardu.

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## Jango

I got a bit more about the guns on the helis thing.

PAA has 20 mm guns installed on UH-1H's and Bell 412's. The MG-3 and similar calibers are mounted on all helicopters regularly. They do not require any proper or specially made mounts because there recoil is pretty low in the grand scheme of things.

Now an interesting story. PAA actually tried to install a gun from the F-6 fighter jet onto a Lama of all helicopters!!! The Lama literally stopped and moved a big distance when the gun was fired. And after a while the skin panels on the gun side of the helicopter broke off and the windows cracked!!! So this project got called off.

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## v9s

ALL publicly available pictures.

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## Blackpearl

This arrangement does not seems to be for flying, and only for validation of concept (FLIR-ed MI-17) on ground. Main gimble is not attached to helo structure, rather it seems that some internal module of FLIR is attached to helo structure, onwhich whole load of stationary/rotary parts hinges. secondly the way power/data cable is attached from FLIR to Helo itself, It has a great sag, and due to rotorwash, may flutter violently and snap lose from both or one end. Now you can also notice some sensitive parts underneath the same area, i.e. anti collision light, landing light, two pitot tubes and small white coloured avionivs antenna. The lose cable may aslo break lower glass panels. i am sure PAF engineers are only testing it for ground checks, and may not risk it to take it to air, the loose cable should be ducted under some cover flushed with fuseladge, so that no unnecessary aerodynamic drag is caused to Mi-17.

BTW, its Star Safire II or III?


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## Blackpearl

No Army Aviation helo is having 20 mm cannon installed on it, either Huey or Bell 412. rather no where in the world, 20 mm Cannons are installed on Heuy or Bell 412. As i already stated earlier in the same thread that Army Aviation Bell 412 are earlier fitted with MG1A3s, but now they are fitted with M240H MGs. 
UH-1Hs (Huey IIs) are not operated by PAA but MoI (Ministry of Interior), these helos are having M240H and GAU-17s


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## Gentelman

Puma





mil Mi-17





puma again

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## Gentelman



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## Gentelman

shugla....

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## Gentelman

wanna have C-130 in breakfast??


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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> No Army Aviation helo is having 20 mm cannon installed on it, either Huey or Bell 412. rather no where in the world, 20 mm Cannons are installed on Heuy or Bell 412. As i already stated earlier in the same thread that Army Aviation Bell 412 are earlier fitted with MG1A3s, but now they are fitted with M240H MGs.



Yup...sorry...got the caliber mixed up.



> UH-1Hs (Huey IIs) are not operated by PAA but MoI (Ministry of Interior), these helos are having M240H and GAU-17s



UH-1H is used by Pak Army...

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## DANGER-ZONE

Blackpearl said:


> This arrangement does not seems to be for flying, and only for validation of concept (FLIR-ed MI-17) on ground. Main gimble is not attached to helo structure, rather it seems that some internal module of FLIR is attached to helo structure, onwhich whole load of stationary/rotary parts hinges. Secondly the way power/data cable is attached from FLIR to Helo itself, It has a great sag, and due to rotorwash, may flutter violently and snap lose from both or one end. Now you can also notice some sensitive parts underneath the same area, i.e. anti collision light, landing light, two pitot tubes and small white coloured avionivs antenna. The lose cable may aslo break lower glass panels. i am sure PAF engineers are only testing it for ground checks, and may not risk it to take it to air, the loose cable should be ducted under some cover flushed with fuseladge, so that no unnecessary aerodynamic drag is caused to Mi-17.
> 
> BTW, its Star Safire II or III?



Beleive me they are operated this way and its been quite loong. Also PAF Mi-17 have similar hanging FLIRs


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## Fieldmarshal

Gentelman said:


> Puma



that is not a puma !!!! 

That is a Eurocopter AS350 Ecureuil.
ur not even close.

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## Gentelman

Fieldmarshal said:


> that is not a puma !!!!
> 
> That is a Eurocopter AS350 Ecureuil.
> ur not even close.



hmmm...
my mistake.....
puma was below......

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## acetophenol

Last Hope said:


> My bad, but the Major died in Schweizer 500 crash in river Chenab.



RIP to him. That pic of him with kids make my heart ache.
BTW,is "shaheed" a part of his original name or was that the title given to him for his supreme sacrifice for his country?


----------



## S.U.R.B.

*An image of a Bell-412 on a Rescue mission.*

BBC News - Pakistan floods: Rescuers aim to reach stranded victims​

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## alibaz

acetophenol said:


> RIP to him. That pic of him with kids make my heart ache.
> BTW,is "shaheed" a part of his original name or was that the title given to him for his supreme sacrifice for his country?



Yes, due to his supreme sacrifice for the country.

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## Blackpearl

danger-zone said:


> Beleive me they are operated this way and its been quite loong. Also PAF Mi-17 have similar hanging FLIRs



This is actually PAF MI-17, Army aviation MIs dont have FLIR, but Bell 412 have FLIR (some of them)


----------



## v9s

Blackpearl said:


> This arrangement does not seems to be for flying, and only for validation of concept (FLIR-ed MI-17) on ground. Main gimble is not attached to helo structure, rather it seems that some internal module of FLIR is attached to helo structure, onwhich whole load of stationary/rotary parts hinges. secondly the way power/data cable is attached from FLIR to Helo itself, It has a great sag, and due to rotorwash, may flutter violently and snap lose from both or one end. Now you can also notice some sensitive parts underneath the same area, i.e. anti collision light, landing light, two pitot tubes and small white coloured avionivs antenna. The lose cable may aslo break lower glass panels. i am sure PAF engineers are only testing it for ground checks, and may not risk it to take it to air, the loose cable should be ducted under some cover flushed with fuseladge, so that no unnecessary aerodynamic drag is caused to Mi-17.
> 
> BTW, its Star Safire II or III?



Star Safire III installed by HISS - World Class Surveillance Systems Integration

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## Gentelman




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## Jango

S.U.R.B. said:


> *An image of a Bell-412 on a Rescue mission.*
> 
> BBC News - Pakistan floods: Rescuers aim to reach stranded victims[/CENTER]



Another thing to note is that squarish thing near the root of the tail boom. A part of FLIR perhaps?

BTW, the HISS website does not list Bell 412 of PA as a customer, so maybe this got installed by someone else?

Another thing I have noticed is that PAA/PAF helis do not follow any set rules regarding painting of flags on tails. As per convention, the flag is painted so as to depict the flag fluttering against the oncoming winds (you can see in PAF/PIA aircraft) but PAA/PAF helis do not have any such rule or anything. You can see some helis with the flag painted as per convention, and some against it. Pumas have the flag as per convention, but Bell 412's and Mi-17's have the flag painted against it.

Not a really big thing, but a small visual thing.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

guys there's been a constant movement of dark green mi17s in Lahore PIA society area for a couple of weeks and at least twice a day always in pairs is there something going on like a aviation base setup or something?


----------



## alibaz

@S-A-B-E-R->
May be flying to Bahria Town


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## fatman17

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> guys there's been a constant movement of dark green mi17s in Lahore PIA society area for a couple of weeks and at least twice a day always in pairs is there something going on like a aviation base setup or something?



on duty of our mr. president


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

alibaz said:


> @S-A-B-E-R->
> May be flying to Bahria Town



wt for?.....



fatman17 said:


> on duty of our mr. president



mabe but every day for two or three weeks twice or thrice a day thats not presidential stuff...?...or the sharif bros r using these?


----------



## Jango

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> mabe but every day for two or three weeks twice or thrice a day thats not presidential stuff...?...or the sharif bros r using these?



The previous time Zardari visited his chateuau in Bahria Town and went to Data Darbar, all on helicopters and these carried the support personnel...

Now after coming back from Iran, His Royal Highness is again in Lahore...and the helicopters are again doing shifts to make His Majesty feel no pain while going through Lahori traffic.

It ain't everyday...increased activity was when he came before, and now. BTW, could you take any good pics next time?

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## S-A-B-E-R->

nuclearpak said:


> The previous time Zardari visited his chateuau in Bahria Town and went to Data Darbar, all on helicopters and these carried the support personnel...
> 
> Now after coming back from Iran, His Royal Highness is again in Lahore...and the helicopters are again doing shifts to make His Majesty feel no pain while going through Lahori traffic.
> 
> It ain't everyday...increased activity was when he came before, and now. BTW, could you take any good pics next time?



thnx ill try


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## Jango

Pretty old pics but good nonetheless.

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## Jango



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## Jango

*You can also see the MG mount in this pic.*

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## Jango



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## fatman17

in the last few months 48 Z-10's have been inducted in the chinese aviation brigades - no interest from PAA?


----------



## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> in the last few months 48 Z-10's have been inducted in the chinese aviation brigades - no interest from PAA?



in last few months billions of $ looted by GOP even in off day they worked for looting us .500bn rupees works singed by mandi wala in three days only .so what you expect now we can have money to buy fuel let alone choppers ?

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## Jango



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## S-A-B-E-R->

nuclearpak said:


>



is that a gattling gun i see??

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## Jango

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> is that a gattling gun i see??



Looks like it...

Do we have gatling guns? I've heard something related to this that we use them...but only ever saw M240's, MG-3's etc.

See post 453...http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/45739-pakistan-army-aviation-corps-updated-31.html, can't find anything on the net other than this.

Got to confirm this, although I have heard this before.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

nuclearpak said:


> Looks like it...
> 
> Do we have gatling guns? I've heard something related to this that we use them...but only ever saw M240's, MG-3's etc.
> 
> See post 453...http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/45739-pakistan-army-aviation-corps-updated-31.html, can't find anything on the net other than this.
> 
> Got to confirm this, although I have heard this before.



yes we do but not a lot of them some were seen in the army videos in the FATA war on hueys but after that no signe.


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## The Deterrent



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## Fieldmarshal

AhaseebA said:


>



UH1H of the ministery of interior ?


----------



## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> UH1H of the ministery of interior ?



The third one is of MoI/Cabinet division, the first two though look like army to me, I've seen those kind of camos over at Multan.


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## Tacticool

What percentage of AFFDP 2k9-2k19 has been accomplished regarding Army Aviation?


----------



## Fieldmarshal

nuclearpak said:


> The third one is of MoI/Cabinet division, the first two though look like army to me, I've seen those kind of camos over at Multan.



now when i look at the pics again, the first 2 are MOI for sure. it has its coat of arms on the door


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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> now when i look at the pics again, the first 2 are MOI for sure. it has its coat of arms on the door



Yup...I enlarged the pic and saw the faint GoP emblem, otherwise I thought it was just some green roundel.

So all three are MoI.


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## Last Hope

Huey.

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## The Deterrent

nuclearpak said:


> Yup...I enlarged the pic and saw the faint GoP emblem, otherwise I thought it was just some green roundel.
> 
> So all three are MoI.



The first two are photos of the same heli.


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## Jango

nuclearpak said:


> *You can also see the MG mount in this pic.*



That bulbous thing in the front is a weather radar...nothing too extraordinary!
 @TaimiKhan


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## Last Hope

Cessna Citation.

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## Gentelman

fatman17 said:


> in the last few months 48 Z-10's have been inducted in the chinese aviation brigades - no interest from PAA?



something fishy is going on inside with turkish...
PA and PAF is looking forward to locally produce T-129 when Heli assembly factory is operational....


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## fatman17

Gentelman said:


> something fishy is going on inside with turkish...
> PA and PAF is looking forward to locally produce T-129 when Heli assembly factory is operational....



whose factory? - and PAF dosnt operate armed helos!


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## Jango

*At Multan*

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## Jango

*SSG at Tarbela, and the new Pumas*

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> *SSG at Tarbela, and the new Pumas*



Did Pakistan actually buy new Pumas.....the furthest aircraft seems to have bigger auxiliary tanks.


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> Did Pakistan actually buy new Pumas.....the furthest aircraft seems to have bigger auxiliary tanks.



They aren't exactly all that new...I was referring to them as 'new' by keeping in mind the other Pumas. The ones with this dark green camo were bought from Qatar(?) about 5 years back...

And yes, the last Puma has aux fuel tanks, fixed over the landing gear bay.


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> They aren't exactly all that new...I was referring to them as 'new' by keeping in mind the other Pumas. The ones with this dark green camo were bought from *Qatar(?)* about a couple of years back...
> 
> And yes, the last Puma has aux fuel tanks, fixed over the landing gear bay.



UAE and were upgraded in Romania. they were originally purchased for spares but found out to be in good condition (PK standards) so put in service.

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> UAE and were upgraded in Romania. they were originally purchased for spares but found out to be in good condition (PK standards) so put in service.



Yup...UAE...they were actually quite good (by all standards)...much better than our older Pumas in some cases. 

Glass cockpit, better avionics and all the goodies you would expect from a modern heli.


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## Gentelman

fatman17 said:


> whose factory? - and PAF dosnt operate armed helos!



yeah PAF don't but can in future...
but there are no such plans...
well I suppose PAC new under construction unit has the facility to manfacture and overhaul helos thats why some talks are going on in initial stages for TOT for TAI T-129....


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## Jango

Gentelman said:


> ...
> well I suppose PAC new under construction unit has the facility to manfacture and overhaul helos



Nope.

The PAF Mi-17's are overhauled at PAF Faisal, for the rest PAA facilities at Qasim Avn Base suffice.


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## Gentelman

nuclearpak said:


> Nope.
> 
> The PAF Mi-17's are overhauled at PAF Faisal, for the rest PAA facilities at Qasim Avn Base suffice.



all I wanna say is that PA is considering seriously to have a local built attack helo under TOT coz of IA helo program


----------



## Jango

Gentelman said:


> all I wanna say is that PA is considering seriously to have a local built attack helo under TOT coz of IA helo program



There haven't been any indications of that from anywhere...or is this 'insider' info? ?


----------



## The Deterrent

There is modified Mi-8 hovering in the skies of twin cities for the past couple of days. One can easily see some additional yellow-colored panels with some equipment installed on both sides. Additionally there is an unusually large antenna on the tail and a couple of small spike-shaped ones on the belly.

Anybody got any info on that?


----------



## Jango

AhaseebA said:


> There is modified Mi-8 ..



Mi-17...not Mi-8.

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## Gentelman

nuclearpak said:


> There haven't been any indications of that from anywhere...or is this 'insider' info? ?



yeah thats an insider info...
actually from deep inside from my heart...


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## Gentelman

nuclearpak said:


> There haven't been any indications of that from anywhere...or is this 'insider' info? ?



well any news on development of locally build heli of public sector??


----------



## Jango

Gentelman said:


> well any news on development of locally build heli of public sector??



None that I know of.


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> *At Multan*





nuclearpak said:


> *SSG at Tarbela, and the new Pumas*



Photo credits? 
The same person has snapped great pictures of AAC at Tarbela and other bases. Will ask him to share.

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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Photo credits?
> The same person has snapped great pictures of AAC at Tarbela and other bases. Will ask him to share.



Don't know...I got them from a Pak army aviation page.


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Don't know...I got them from a Pak army aviation page.


He is the SSG pictures guy.


----------



## Jango

Last Hope said:


> He is the SSG pictures guy.



Yeah...now I get it...checked it again from the page and they have it on the comments!


----------



## DANGER-ZONE



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## Jango

danger-zone said:


>



Same as following:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...Zxq_bfRjhdH4MOADkmrSWs8A&ust=1365000878510236

Was this sent for some refurbishment or something?

That explains a new paint job on a older Mi -17.

THe above picture is at Kaunsas, Lithuania.

Edit: Yes, it was sent for refurbishment. http://www.madeinlithuania.lt/Aviation_industry-imone528-Helisota...the link shows that there is a Mi-17 overhaul, repair and maint facility at Kaunsas, Lithuania.

PAF also has overhaul facilities in Karachi, where the full heli can be overhauled and repaired, except the transmission and engine...but due to stretching of resources and already alot of helis requiring maintenance and overhaul due to WoT, helis are also sent abroad for overhaul as in house capacity is less.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> Same as following:
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...Zxq_bfRjhdH4MOADkmrSWs8A&ust=1365000878510236
> 
> Was this sent for some refurbishment or something?
> 
> That explains a new paint job on a older Mi -17.
> 
> THe above picture is at Kaunsas, Lithuania.
> 
> Edit: Yes, it was sent for refurbishment. http://www.madeinlithuania.lt/Aviation_industry-imone528-Helisota...the link shows that there is a Mi-17 overhaul, repair and maint facility at Kaunsas, Lithuania.
> 
> PAF also has overhaul facilities in Karachi, where the full heli can be overhauled and repaired, except the transmission and engine...but due to stretching of resources and already alot of helis requiring maintenance and overhaul due to WoT, helis are also sent abroad for overhaul as in house capacity is less.



Yup photographed in Russia from the website russianplanes.net


----------



## Last Hope

Ecrueil at Gyari sector:

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## Jango

Last Hope said:


>



Rescue effort started again? 

There were about 15 bodies left right?


----------



## Last Hope

Old pictures, weather is still harsh. And AFAIK 9 or 7 bodies are still buried. 
With the winter setting in, fresh snow storms would've filled in the craters from resume effort. I don't believe they will go for them now.

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## Jango



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## Jango

Note the COAS logo beside the door.

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## Jango

At Rahwali base, Gujranwala.

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## Jango

Miranshah??

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## Reddawn

Gentelman said:


> yeah PAF don't but can in future...
> but there are no such plans...
> well I suppose PAC new under construction unit has the facility to manfacture and overhaul helos thats why some talks are going on in initial stages for TOT for TAI T-129....




Do you know what it takes to manufacture a helicopter indigenously? PAC don't even manufacture the JF17 completely!


----------



## Gentelman

Reddawn said:


> Do you know what it takes to manufacture a helicopter indigenously? PAC don't even manufacture the JF17 completely!



you ok bro???
where is the word indigenious in my post you quoted???
and you know something called TOT?? I was just suggesting that TOT well never mind


----------



## alimobin memon

Reddawn said:


> Do you know what it takes to manufacture a helicopter indigenously? PAC don't even manufacture the JF17 completely!



We lack funds thats all otherwise it can be made indigenous the Turboshafts can also be build Because there are some engineering students i know who have worked on it if provided funds and facilities can work and design a turboshaft indigenously/...


----------



## Reddawn

Gentelman said:


> you ok bro???
> where is the word indigenious in my post you quoted???
> and you know something called TOT?? I was just suggesting that TOT well never mind



You said: *well I suppose PAC new under construction unit has the facility to manfacture and overhaul helos thats why some talks are going on in initial stages for TOT for TAI T-129....*

So PAC has the facility to manufacture helos because that is what you are saying!

To manufacture anything whether it is an indigenous design or a foreign design requires a huge technical base that can not only invest and produce workable R&D but can also manufacture the airframe, avionics & comms suite, combat weapons suite, ISR sensors etc etc etc. Then we will require the participation of local industries to provide the down stream and up stream aspect of a supply chain for production as PAC does not have the capability to manufacture everything in house. So its easy to claim x,y,z but I'm afraid for the real experts on this forum and beyond what you say is pure fantasy. Case in point Pakistans quest to master the nuclear fuel cycle required a work force of 100,000 and the participation of no less then 120 state owned enterprises and their subsidiaries. This was just to master the nuclear fuel cycle. We're not even talking about the quest to weaponise this technology.

Then we have the claim of ToT one that often gets banded about without the poster really understanding what it entails. Well my question to you is what exactly is going to be permitted under a 'ToT' for a potential TAI deal if there even will be one?


----------



## Gentelman

Reddawn said:


> You said: *well I suppose PAC new under construction unit has the facility to manfacture and overhaul helos thats why some talks are going on in initial stages for TOT for TAI T-129....*
> 
> So PAC has the facility to manufacture helos because that is what you are saying!
> 
> To manufacture anything whether it is an indigenous design or a foreign design requires a huge technical base that can not only invest and produce workable R&D but can also manufacture the airframe, avionics & comms suite, combat weapons suite, ISR sensors etc etc etc. Then we will require the participation of local industries to provide the down stream and up stream aspect of a supply chain for production as PAC does not have the capability to manufacture everything in house. So its easy to claim x,y,z but I'm afraid for the real experts on this forum and beyond what you say is pure fantasy. Case in point Pakistans quest to master the nuclear fuel cycle required a work force of 100,000 and the participation of no less then 120 state owned enterprises and their subsidiaries. This was just to master the nuclear fuel cycle. We're not even talking about the quest to weaponise this technology.
> 
> Then we have the claim of ToT one that often gets banded about without the poster really understanding what it entails. Well my question to you is what exactly is going to be permitted under a 'ToT' for a potential TAI deal if there even will be one?



there is a word I suppose in all that&#8230;&#8230;&#12484;
and here you are creating APCs,Subs,FACs,Mine Cleaner boats,Frigates,Avionics,Radar and much of the frame of JFT is too created here,there is an overhall structure for Mil Mi 17 and TOT basically means builting some oarts and assmbly ok it is transfer of technology means all things would be transferred essential to built and assemble that heli&#8230;&#8230;
thats not a very big deal on which you are crying like that coz you would got all training and equips if TOT agreement is done but Nowabshah of PAC Is not confermed&#8230;&#8230;
and where i said helo factory os there???
It will be constructed if TOT is planned and PAC shows intrest inNawabshah plant&#8230;&#8230;
well infastructure is there then you can build anything&#8230;&#8230;
is heli more difficult then subs??
in TOT all is done you just got training and machines to manfecture your all bla bla is transfered with TOT and more sposficated things like radars and engines are imported radar too can be created with TOT if you include them in agreement&#8230;&#8230;
yeah facility is not confermed&#8230;&#8230;

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## Reddawn

Gentelman said:


> there is a word I suppose in all that&#12484;
> and here you are creating APCs,Subs,FACs,Mine Cleaner boats,Frigates,Avionics,Radar and much of the frame of JFT is too created here,there is an overhall structure for Mil Mi 17 and TOT basically means builting some oarts and assmbly ok it is transfer of technology means all things would be transferred essential to built and assemble that heli
> thats not a very big deal on which you are crying like that coz you would got all training and equips if TOT agreement is done but Nowabshah of PAC Is not confermed
> and where i said helo factory os there???
> It will be constructed if TOT is planned and PAC shows intrest inNawabshah plant
> well infastructure is there then you can build anything
> is heli more difficult then subs??
> in TOT all is done you just got training and machines to manfecture your all bla bla is transfered with TOT and more sposficated things like radars and engines are imported radar too can be created with TOT if you include them in agreement
> yeah facility is not confermed




I have not understood one sentence you have written! Its pointless entering into a debate as you clearly cannot write! FYI KSEW produced the hull of the A90Bs and thats all. SUBTICS and AIP modules were imported from France.

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## Gentelman

Reddawn said:


> I have not understood one sentence you have written! Its pointless entering into a debate as you clearly cannot write! FYI KSEW produced the hull of the A90Bs and thats all. SUBTICS and AIP modules were imported from France.



TOT means that! you should chk out the defination of TOT
It doesnot means that you would prepare all the heli at home but basically assemble with some key parts prepared here
Indians are preparing Jaguvars and Mairages 2000 under TOT it doesnot mean they are preparing all at home it just mean some parts with assembly done there
It is just termed like that we are preparing that thing at home under TOT

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## Reddawn

Gentelman said:


> TOT means that! you should chk out the defination of TOT
> It doesnot means that you would prepare all the heli at home but basically assemble with some key parts prepared here
> Indians are preparing Jaguvars and Mairages 2000 under TOT it doesnot mean they are preparing all at home it just mean some parts with assembly done there
> It is just termed like that we are preparing that thing at home under TOT



Again I ask what on earth are you talking about?! What is a Jaguvqr and Mairages 2000?? What exactly are the Indians 'preparing Jaguars and Mirages 2000'? Please do enlighten us?

PS your handle is spelled wrong. It's Gentleman


----------



## Gentelman

Reddawn said:


> Again I ask what on earth are you talking about?! What is a Jaguvqr and Mairages 2000?? What exactly are the Indians 'preparing Jaguars and Mirages 2000'? Please do enlighten us?
> 
> PS your handle is spelled wrong. It's Gentleman



use google bro rather than wating my time please you even don't know anything about TOT &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;


----------



## Reddawn

Gentelman said:


> use google bro rather than wating my time please you even don't know anything about TOT



Why should I use google???

You being the self proclaimed 'expert' when it comes to ToT should be able to answer my simple question? What ToT have the Indians received for upgrading the Jaguars and Mirages? The truth of the matter is Gentleman you don't know squat. You're just another fan boy who clearly cannot spell to save your life and thinks he knows everything! Do me a favour...... rather than further embarrassing yourself why don't you actually go away and do some research, educate yourself, learn how to spell and then participate with constructive contributions rather than your usual dribble with a heavy use of emoticons!


----------



## Gentelman

Reddawn said:


> Why should I use google???
> 
> You being the self proclaimed 'expert' when it comes to ToT should be able to answer my simple question? What ToT have the Indians received for upgrading the Jaguars and Mirages? The truth of the matter is Gentleman you don't know squat. You're just another fan boy who clearly cannot spell to save your life and thinks he knows everything! Do me a favour...... rather than further embarrassing yourself why don't you actually go away and do some research, educate yourself, learn how to spell and then participate with constructive contributions rather than your usual dribble with a heavy use of emoticons!



well here chk out who is using emotions
don't know how many times I told you about TOT and here you are asking again in a disgraceful manner
HAL has TOT to built SU-30s,Mairages 2000 and Jaguars its not that difficult to understand TOT is abbriviated as Transfer of technology in which you receives machinery and training to make certain parts at home while others are imported from orign and assembled in country it woks like producing certain things under lisence i.e if Pakistan signs a TOT for TAI atack helis then if engine is under TOT for that heli than it would be locally manfactured while if engine is not then it would be imported
You just have to built and no research is done by that country i.e India creating Jaguars or others have some extincts i.e they have no source program nor engine is created there so they have to contace suppliers to integrate any purchased weapons and have to import engines
that's all and basic even now if you are unable to understand it than I am off
btw I am a human who can do mistakes
You seriously consider yourself going we already have enough trollers
and what the hell is the Indian TOT is to do with the topic??
that was off topic if you even had searched right thread you would have found right thread


----------



## fatman17

^ guys this is a army aviation thread......please discuss your TOT topics elsewhere.....thanks

helis.com 

Aerospatiale - SA330J Puma 

In Pakistan army aviation

Del'd: 32 - 1977 to present

C/N&#8230;&#8230;.. Built ID&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.in this Organization. 
1194 1194: 
1398 1398: 
1401 1401: 
1406 1406: 
1408 1408: 
1414 1414: 
1415 1415: Pakistan Army
1436 1436: Pakistan Army
1443 1443: Pakistan Army
1457 1457: Pakistan Army
1458 1458: Pakistan Army
1523 1523: Pakistan Army
1525 1525: Pakistan Army
1528 1528: 
1530 1530: 
1531 1531: 
1534 1534: Pakistan Army
1535 1535: Pakistan Army
1538 1538: Pakistan Army
1543 1543: Pakistan Army
1546 1546: Pakistan Army
1548 1548: Pakistan Army
1552 1552: Pakistan Army
1555 1555: Pakistan Army
1558 1558: Pakistan Army
1564 1564: Pakistan Army
1566 1566: Pakistan Army
1568 1568: Pakistan Army
1572 1572: 
1574 1574: 
1576 1576: 
1580 1580: 


32 C/N found in this Organization



nuclearpak said:


> Miranshah??



looks too developed for miranshah...!


----------



## Jango

fatman17 said:


> looks too developed for miranshah...!



Sir je khair to hai?

Developed?

BTW, I asked somebody and this is Miranshah...Tochi or Tocha helipad is the name I think. Anybody familiar with the area can correct the name.

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## fatman17

Bell 412EP

Construction Numbers of this Model in this Organization: 

C/N Mod Built ID In this Organization 

36336 412ep 36336: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N8098V
36339 412ep 2004 36339: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N3216L Aug/Sep 2004
36344 412ep 36344: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N3215Y
36345 412ep 36345: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N32154
36361 412ep 36361: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N41758
36363 412ep 36363: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N80341
36327 412ep 786-201: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N8097V; w/o unknown
36347 412ep 786-210: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N80352; w/o unknown
36341 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N32166
36342 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N3216G
36343 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N3217H
36346 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N8036A
36348 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N8035U
36349 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N8035H
36356 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N70082
36357 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N70167
36359 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N41751
36360 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N4177P
36364 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N80344
36365 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N80348
36366 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N8035A
36367 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N70056
36368 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N43997
36369 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N43930
36476 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N319DA
36477 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N3189B
36478 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N318PB
36497 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N366MB
36508 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N373FB
36519 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N10299
36526 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N242ZU
36527 412ep ?: Pakistan Army, Bell serial N10061

32 C/N found in this Organisation



nuclearpak said:


> Sir je khair to hai?
> 
> Developed?
> 
> BTW, I asked somebody and this is Miranshah...Tochi or Tocha helipad is the name I think. Anybody familiar with the area can correct the name.



you may be right.......the google pic i checked seemed different


----------



## fatman17

Eurocopter EW139

Construction Numbers of this Model in this Organisation:


C/N Mod Built ID In this Organisation. 


31248 SIX-050: Pakistan ERC d/d May09
31249 SIX-051: Pakistan ERC d/d Oct09
31258 SIX-052: Pakistan ERC d/d Aug09
31261 SIX-053: Pakistan ERC d/d Aug09
31263 SIX-054: Pakistan ERC d/d Sep09

5 C/N found in this Organisation


----------



## Jango

fatman17 said:


> Eurocopter EW139
> 
> Construction Numbers of this Model in this Organisation:
> 
> 
> C/N Mod Built ID In this Organisation.
> 
> 
> 31248 SIX-050: Pakistan ERC d/d May09
> 31249 SIX-051: Pakistan ERC d/d Oct09
> 31258 SIX-052: Pakistan ERC d/d Aug09
> 31261 SIX-053: Pakistan ERC d/d Aug09
> 31263 SIX-054: Pakistan ERC d/d Sep09
> 
> 5 C/N found in this Organisation



These aircraft don't come under Army aviation.


----------



## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> These aircraft don't come under Army aviation.



true but pilots of army aviation are seconded - plus the purchase was under MoD-army


----------



## Jango

fatman17 said:


> true but pilots of army aviation are seconded - plus the purchase was under MoD-army



Some are retired, some seconded. Same with engg and maint. Kind of like SPD helicopters, but the difference b/w the two is that SPD squadron comes under MoD, this one (6th Avn) comes under MoI.


----------



## Reddawn

nuclearpak said:


> Some are retired, some seconded. Same with engg and maint. Kind of like SPD helicopters, but the difference b/w the two is that SPD squadron comes under MoD, this one (6th Avn) comes under MoI.



What type helos do SPD operate and how many?


----------



## Jango

Reddawn said:


> What type helos do SPD operate and how many?



Currently 4 Bell 412 EP AFAIK, the black ones with the golden cheat lines and weather radar.

A new squadron was raised for them.

This one...:







And:

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## Jango

@fatman17, we bought the desert camo Cobras from Jordan right? How much did we buy?

They are at Multan if I am correct?

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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> @fatman17, we bought the desert camo Cobras from Jordan right? How much did we buy?
> 
> They are at Multan if I am correct?


Yes they were bought from Jordan, I will post pictures later which I got my hands laid upon 
They are based at Tarbela.


----------



## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Yes they were bought from Jordan, I will post pictures later which I got my hands laid upon
> They are based at Tarbela.



I've already seen those pics...!

ANd those pics aren't at Tarbela, most probably at Multan.

Edit: those new pics are definitely at Multan.


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> I've already seen those pics...!
> 
> ANd those pics aren't at Tarbela, most probably at Multan.



There was another album which was taken at Tarbela during SSG skydiving. Atleast one Cobra was in Jordan camo, but it maybe possible that they are at both bases.


----------



## Last Hope

Correction: All were taken at Multan.


----------



## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Correction: All were taken at Multan.



Yup, I saw a 'nishani' of Multan airbase in one of the pics!


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Yup, I saw a 'nishani' of Multan airbase in one of the pics!


Filters on the intakes?


----------



## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Filters on the intakes?



Nope...

Keep on guessing.


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Nope...
> 
> Keep on guessing.



The three other things I could spot were the hangars, the runway and the pictures over the city!


----------



## Jango

Last Hope said:


> The three other things I could spot were the hangars, the runway and the pictures over the city!



Still no...the PAF pens could be a sign, but they are too general.

Hint: The nishani is in a pic in which the cobra is coming back towards the hangars and is in the air and nishani will be under the cobra...a couple more guesses?


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Still no...the PAF pens could be a sign, but they are too general.
> 
> Hint: The nishani is in a pic in which the cobra is coming back towards the hangars and is in the air and nishani will be under the cobra...a couple more guesses?



No luck.

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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> No luck.



Still no luck, okay, last hint...the particular image has a white wall in the background. That pic also has a Puma..


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Still no luck, okay, last hint...the particular image has a white wall in the background. That pic also has a Puma..


Roger.
Got it.


----------



## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Roger.
> Got it.



Now find the nishani!! 

It is also a helicopter.


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Now find the nishani!!
> 
> It is also a helicopter.



I had got them both. I will post all the pictures soon, for others to enjoy.


----------



## Jango

Last Hope said:


> I had got them both. I will post all the pictures soon, for others to enjoy.



So what is the heli that is the nishani?


----------



## Fieldmarshal

nuclearpak said:


> Sir je khair to hai?
> 
> Developed?
> 
> BTW, I asked somebody and this is Miranshah...Tochi or Tocha helipad is the name I think. Anybody familiar with the area can correct the name.



Tochi is the name

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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> @fatman17, we bought the desert camo Cobras from Jordan right? How much did we buy?
> 
> They are at Multan if I am correct?


we didn't buy from jordan but they were US cobras under jordan . US took back from them and give to us


ISLAMABAD: The United States has delivered a squadron of 14 AH-1 Cobra advanced helicopter gunships to Pakistan, Geo News reported Tuesday.

According to details, the AH1-F Cobra helicopter gunships, equipped for night flying, has been supplied by the US from its Jordan Air Base stock.

The helicopters were handed over to Pakistan Army Aviation.

US transfers Cobra helicopters to Pakistan - GEO.tv

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...f-sqd-transferred-pakistan.html#ixzz2R7qeX2cK


----------



## Jango

Refuelling.

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## Bamboo Castle

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan Army Aviation Corps*
> 
> Notes:
> 
> 
> AS.550B3 Fennec
> - Note: It is believed that 10 examples of this type were ordered during 2007, with deliveries expected to take place from late 2009 onwards, but that this acquisition has now been cancelled.
> 
> SE.3160 Alouette III
> - Note: Any surviving examples were upgraded to SA.316B standard
> 
> AW139
> - In service from May 2009
> 
> - Note: Of the 5 examples being acquired, 2 are to assume duties as VIP/VVIP transports whilst the remaining 3 will be fitted to undertake humanitarian relief operations. All 5 were delivered between May & October 2009
> 
> AH-1S Cobra
> - Note: All of the airframes are in the process of undergoing upgrades to AH-1F configuration for conformity with newly-delivered former US Army examples arriving in 2007 & 2008. One Cobra is currently stored in a damaged condition following an accident
> 
> Bell 412EP
> - In service from 2005
> 
> - Note: The vast majority of the Bell 412EPs are operated on behalf of the Ministry of Interior. The attrition losses occurred on 21st June 2006 & 6th February 2008.
> 
> UH-1H Iroquois
> - Note: 40 airframes were due from the US via FMS (20 airworthy plus 20 for spares), but this acquisition appears to have been cancelled
> 
> IAR-330L Puma
> - Note: All 4 are configured for VIP transportation tasks.
> 
> Mi-172 'Hip-H'
> - Note: 3 aircraft delivered during the second half of 2008. All are configured for the VVIP & presidential transportation role.
> 
> Mi-17-V5 'Hip'
> - Note: Some of the Mi-17 Hips previously believed to have been Mi-17-IV variants are now confirmed as being Kazan-built Mi-17V5s, delivered in the mid-2000s. Another 2 aircraft were delivered during the second half of 2008. Both are configured for the MedEvac & SAR role. It is believed that another 4 have been acquired on a temporary basis in late 2009 via the US Army TSMO (Threat Systems Management Office) at Ft.Bliss, TX to assist with anti-Taliban operations in-country
> 
> Hughes 500
> - Note: Formerly operated by the Inter-Service Intelligence Department (ISI) in very small numbers
> 
> Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'
> - Note: *As many as 32 Mi-17-1V models are reported to have been acquired in a large batch delivered between 2002 & 2008. A further 6 Mi-17 (Mi-8MTV-1) helicopters have been leased from the US Department of Defense for use in ongoing anti-Taliban operations in the Swat Valley, having been delivered in late June 2009. The most recent attrition losses have been on 5th August 2004 & 3rd July 2009, the latter resulting in 26 fatalities. Another loss occurred on 24th October 2009, during fighting in the Bajaur tribal region, causing 3 fatalities aboard the helicopter.*
> 
> Mi-24V 'Hind-E'
> - Note: Captured ex-Afghan example believed to have been in recent use.




Sorry mate.. Looks like the figure is not accurate... 

*According to* Mi-8 / Mi-17 Hip Multimission Helicopter - Army Technology

A number of Mi-17s have been delivered for Iran, ten for Malaysia, 20 to Columbia, 139 for India, *12 for Pakistan* and 20 for Venezuela (deliveries began February 2006).

The US gave *four Mi-17 helicopters to Pakistan* to assist its anti-terrorism activity in June 2009. The US Navy delivered four Mi-17s to the Afghan National Army Air Corps in September 2009. Ten Mi-17-V5 helicopters were delivered to the Afghan Air Force (AAF) by December 2010.


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## fatman17

Bamboo Castle said:


> Sorry mate.. Looks like the figure is not accurate...
> 
> *According to* Mi-8 / Mi-17 Hip Multimission Helicopter - Army Technology
> 
> A number of Mi-17s have been delivered for Iran, ten for Malaysia, 20 to Columbia, 139 for India, *12 for Pakistan* and 20 for Venezuela (deliveries began February 2006).
> 
> The US gave *four Mi-17 helicopters to Pakistan* to assist its anti-terrorism activity in June 2009. The US Navy delivered four Mi-17s to the Afghan National Army Air Corps in September 2009. Ten Mi-17-V5 helicopters were delivered to the Afghan Air Force (AAF) by December 2010.



oh ok as u say...!


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## Bamboo Castle

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan Army Aviation Corps*
> 
> SE.3160 Alouette III
> - Note: Any surviving examples were upgraded to SA.316B standard



*Received:* 
1982	36	Assembled in Pakistan
1987	4	Ex-UAE
1995	4	Ex-Dutch
2008	2	Second-hand; SA-319B version
2008	8	Ex-French; SA-319B version




fatman17 said:


> AW139
> - In service from May 2009
> 
> - Note: Of the 5 examples being acquired, 2 are to assume duties as VIP/VVIP transports whilst the remaining 3 will be fitted to undertake humanitarian relief operations. All 5 were delivered between May & October 2009



Pakistan never put any order for these. Prove me wrong.



fatman17 said:


> AH-1S Cobra
> - Note: All of the airframes are in the process of undergoing upgrades to AH-1F configuration for conformity with newly-delivered former US Army examples arriving in 2007 & 2008. One Cobra is currently stored in a damaged condition following an accident



*Received:* 
1985	10	AH-1S
1986	10	AH-1S
2007	12	AH-1F. Ex-US; $48 m deal (financed with 'FMF' aid); modernized before delivery
2010	14	AH-1F. Ex-US



fatman17 said:


> Bell 412EP
> - In service from 2005
> 
> - Note: The vast majority of the Bell 412EPs are operated on behalf of the Ministry of Interior. The attrition losses occurred on 21st June 2006 & 6th February 2008.



*Received:*
2005	26	Originally $230 m deal for 2 year lease but given to Pakistan in 2007
2010	2	$23-24 m aid, Bell-412EP version



fatman17 said:


> Mi-172 'Hip-H'
> - Note: 3 aircraft delivered during the second half of 2008. All are configured for the VVIP & presidential transportation role.
> 
> Mi-17-V5 'Hip'
> - Note: Some of the Mi-17 Hips previously believed to have been Mi-17-IV variants are now confirmed as being Kazan-built Mi-17V5s, delivered in the mid-2000s. Another 2 aircraft were delivered during the second half of 2008. Both are configured for the MedEvac & SAR role. It is believed that another 4 have been acquired on a temporary basis in late 2009 via the US Army TSMO (Threat Systems Management Office) at Ft.Bliss, TX to assist with anti-Taliban operations in-country
> 
> Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'
> - Note: As many as 32 Mi-17-1V models are reported to have been acquired in a large batch delivered between 2002 & 2008. A further 6 Mi-17 (Mi-8MTV-1) helicopters have been leased from the US Department of Defense for use in ongoing anti-Taliban operations in the Swat Valley, having been delivered in late June 2009. The most recent attrition losses have been on 5th August 2004 & 3rd July 2009, the latter resulting in 26 fatalities. Another loss occurred on 24th October 2009, during fighting in the Bajaur tribal region, causing 3 fatalities aboard the helicopter.



*Received:*
1996	12	$32 m deal; Mi-17 version
1995	5	$4.2 m deal; incl for SAR and VIP transport; ordered via Danish company
2002	12	Part of $50 m deal; delivery delayed after Indian complaints from 2001 until 2002-2003
2002	4	Second-hand; modernized before delivery; part of $50 m deal
2004	13	Part of $51 m deal; ordered via UK company



fatman17 said:


> Mi-24V 'Hind-E'
> - Note: Captured ex-Afghan example believed to have been in recent use.



No such delivery is noted by any organization.


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## Jango

Bamboo Castle said:


> Pakistan never put any order for these. Prove me wrong.



Gladly...








> No such delivery is noted by any organization.



THere was only one example which defected from A-stan. It is still parked at Quetta, it was never used by us except for a cople of short flights.

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## fatman17

Pakistan never put any order for these. Prove me wrong.



Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-aviation-corps-updated-72.html#ixzz2RBcY5AgJ

you are new around here. take it slow...


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## Jango

Bamboo Castle said:


> $4.2 m deal; incl for SAR and VIP transport; ordered via Danish company



All the Mi-17's are now used for SAR roles, the winch problem was fixed with the Russians.

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## Bamboo Castle

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan never put any order for these. Prove me wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-aviation-corps-updated-72.html#ixzz2RBcY5AgJ
> 
> you are new around here. take it slow...



Did not mean to offend you sir. Sorry, if I did so in the act..

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## datalibdaz

Bamboo Castle said:


> No such delivery is noted by any organization.



Here you go

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## Imran Khan

Bamboo Castle said:


> *Received:*
> 1982	36	Assembled in Pakistan
> 1987	4	Ex-UAE
> 1995	4	Ex-Dutch
> 2008	2	Second-hand; SA-319B version
> 2008	8	Ex-French; SA-319B version
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan never put any order for these. Prove me wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> *Received:*
> 1985	10	AH-1S
> 1986	10	AH-1S
> 2007	12	AH-1F. Ex-US; $48 m deal (financed with 'FMF' aid); modernized before delivery
> 2010	14	AH-1F. Ex-US
> 
> 
> 
> *Received:*
> 2005	26	Originally $230 m deal for 2 year lease but given to Pakistan in 2007
> 2010	2	$23-24 m aid, Bell-412EP version
> 
> 
> 
> *Received:*
> 1996	12	$32 m deal; Mi-17 version
> 1995	5	$4.2 m deal; incl for SAR and VIP transport; ordered via Danish company
> 2002	12	Part of $50 m deal; delivery delayed after Indian complaints from 2001 until 2002-2003
> 2002	4	Second-hand; modernized before delivery; part of $50 m deal
> 2004	13	Part of $51 m deal; ordered via UK company
> 
> 
> 
> No such delivery is noted by any organization.



take some time bro . we don't need an approval from dahaka for deliveries 

























another

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## fatman17

Bamboo Castle said:


> Did not mean to offend you sir. Sorry, if I did so in the act..



no issue friend - you seem well informed and can be a important member of our forum.

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## nomi007

Abingdonboy said:


> Guys- the PA operates the IAR 330s- are there any plans to upgrade them with the SOCAT package?



SOCAT version

In 1990s, the Romanian Air Force decided to enhance combat capabilities of IAR-330L, making it a universal anti-tank and support helicopter. At that time, Romania started to cooperate with Israel on some military programs. The Israeli company Elbit Systems was chosen, and in September 1995 the Romanian Air Force signed the contract to upgrade 24 helicopters with the SOCAT system (Sistem Optronic de Cercetare si Anti-Tanc). The first IAR-330L SOCAT was flown on 26 May 1998, from the airport of IAR S.A. in Ghimbav, near Bra&#351;ov. On 23 October 1999, the second prototype flew. The first IAR-330L SOCAT was delivered to a combat unit in 2001. In all, 25 SOCATs were made, including the prototype, rebuilt to a serial configuration in 2005.
how can we purchase israeli weapons

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## Bamboo Castle

Imran Khan said:


> take some time bro . we don't need an approval from dahaka for deliveries
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> another



I mean no disrespect sir, but at least name BD capital properly. Its not Dahaka, its Dhaka.


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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> All the Mi-17's are now used for SAR roles, the winch problem was fixed with the Russians.


Talking of SAR helos in Army, SAR role itself is divided into 2 categories ==> SAR and CSAR
*SAR* is for peacetime activity, like rescue people stranded in flood, over a mountain etc, while abandon a ship in sea. Bigger helos fit for SAR role so as to carry more people in one trip. same role may also be performed by smaller helos but then they may pick only 2-3 people in one trip.

*CSAR*=> its role is to pick downed pilots from hostile area, thus they have to be small, agile, fast so that they ingress quickly, settle themselves among trees and descend down so that not visible over the horizon, pick 1-2 pilotsand quickly egress.
I think every helo comes with an option for winch which may be fixed when required and removed when not required. PAF is using Allouette III helos for CSAR role. Army is using Bell 412 and MI-17. Alouette III Lama helos are also used to pick stranded mountaineers in Northern areas. Few years back, a Lama helo rescued a foreign lone mountaineer from Nanga Parbat. Both the pilots were given the highest award for herioc rescue work by that country's president. (sorry forgetting the name of country).


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Blackpearl said:


> Talking of SAR helos in Army, SAR role itself is divided into 2 categories ==> SAR and CSAR
> *SAR* is for peacetime activity, like rescue people stranded in flood, over a mountain etc, while abandon a ship in sea. Bigger helos fit for SAR role so as to carry more people in one trip. same role may also be performed by smaller helos but then they may pick only 2-3 people in one trip.
> 
> *CSAR*=> its role is to pick downed pilots from hostile area, thus they have to be small, agile, fast so that they ingress quickly, settle themselves among trees and descend down so that not visible over the horizon, pick 1-2 pilotsand quickly egress.
> I think every helo comes with an option for winch which may be fixed when req and removed when not required. PAF is using Allouette III helos for CSAR role. Army is using Bell 412 and MI-17. Alouette III Lama helos are also used to pick stranded mountaineers in Northern areas. Few years back, a Lama helo rescued a foreign lone mountaineer from Nanga Parbat. Both the pilots were given the highest award for herioc rescue work by that country's president. (*sorry forgetting the name of country*).



Slovenia..........

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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> I think every helo comes with an option for winch which may be fixed when req and removed when not required.



Now yes, but previously it was only the Mi-17 and that had alot of problems as well. THe problem was that the Russians gave us winches with max capacity of 250 kg...those were big old machines, a seat or two had to be taken off and the motor put in the cabin and it was a hassle to install it and uninstall it. It required quite an effort. Then in those times, we didn't really have a need for the winches. Our crews weren't really trained for it, crew chiefs had no idea and so on. Those old winches just kept on rusting and were disposed.

Now since we bought the V5's, we also bought the winches and fitted them across the fleet. They are winches of max capacity 150 kg. They are easy to use and install, a small assembly just above the cabin door as visible from pictures. Use for winches has also become widespread. SSG use it, also used for CSAR and SAR. Crews are also given a short crash course for it.



> Alouette III Lama helos are also used to pick stranded mountaineers in Northern areas. Few years back, a Lama helo rescued a foreign lone mountaineer from Nanga Parbat. Both the pilots were given the highest award for herioc rescue work by that country's president. (sorry forgetting the name of country).



Slovenian, Tomaz Humar or something like that. The pilots were Lt Col Rashid Ullah Baig and Maj Amir Khalid Rana. Had the pleasure of meeting them both with my father.

They told the whole tale, doors were taken off, seats, bottles were kept to a minimum (they had to share one bottle!), the helicopter was down to it's bare bones and the rotors came within inches of the cliff face.

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## Windjammer



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## sancho

Some strange news from Germany (google translated):



> *Germans are considering exports
> 
> Pakistan can hope for helicopter*
> 
> Pakistan is shaken by numerous attacks before the elections in May. But also in other times, the country is under criticism because of the difficult human rights situation. Despite this, the federal government could consider to deliver discarded army helicopters to Pakistan.
> 
> The federal government is considering selling decommissioned helicopters to Pakistan. These are about *40 old army-type helicopter Bo 105*, writes of the "Spiegel". This is clear from a letter from Secretary of State Thomas Kossendey to the Defence Committee of the Bundestag of 24 April forth.
> 
> Therefore be in compliance with all conditions "a release is possible." *Before exporting, a "demilitarization" must be made so that "the potential military utility as anti-tank helicopter is deleted." For this weapons mounts needs to be removed.*



http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Pakistan-kann-auf-Helikopter-hoffen-article10554586.html


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## Jango

sancho said:


> Some strange news from Germany (google translated):
> 
> 
> 
> Deutsche erwägen Export: Pakistan kann auf Helikopter hoffen - n-tv.de



News seems kind of dodgy to me. No rumors of the acquisition (40 choppers is a big number), but most importantly, what would be the purpose of these choppers? Scout is done by Jet Ranger, Bell 412 is the transport.

Maybe a replacement for the Alouette?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

How many Schweizer 500 helis do we have?







nuclearpak said:


> News seems kind of dodgy to me. No rumors of the acquisition (40 choppers is a big number), but most importantly, what would be the purpose of these choppers? Scout is done by Jet Ranger, Bell 412 is the transport.
> 
> Maybe a replacement for the Alouette?



Accordin to various german sources... the helis will be retired by 2016... and GoP has shown interest in them..


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## Jango

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> How many Schweizer 500 helis do we have?



Around 30-40. Almost all based at Gujranwala.

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## sancho

nuclearpak said:


> News seems kind of dodgy to me. No rumors of the acquisition (40 choppers is a big number), but most importantly, what would be the purpose of these choppers? Scout is done by Jet Ranger, Bell 412 is the transport.
> 
> Maybe a replacement for the Alouette?



To me too, these helicopters are normally used for uttility, MEDIVAC roles or in the anti tank role as in the pic, but if they come they will remove that capability


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## Donatello

How many firm number of AH-1 Cobras are in service with PAA?

I believe Multan is their main base.


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## Jango

Donatello said:


> How many firm number of AH-1 Cobras are in service with PAA?
> 
> I believe Multan is their main base.



My guess would be around 50...it's hard to get any firm numbers for helicopters as their serial numbers are not as recognizable to alot of folks as opposed to jets. A firm number would be available only with the people inside the army.

And yes, Multan is their main base, as well the maintenance depot. But due to WoT, they spend alot of time in Tarbela and Peshawar as well.

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## Emmie

nuclearpak said:


> My guess would be around 50...it's hard to get any firm numbers for helicopters as their serial numbers are not as recognizable to alot of folks as opposed to jets. A firm number would be available only with the people inside the army.
> 
> And yes, Multan is their main base, as well the maintenance depot. But due to WoT, they spend alot of time in Tarbela and Peshawar as well.



Means, 16 AH-1F from Jordon are flying as well! Sorry, didn't follow update on this.


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## Jango

Emmie said:


> Means, 16 AH-1F from Jordon are flying as well! Sorry, didn't follow update on this.



They've been flying for a long time.

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## Emmie

nuclearpak said:


> They've been flying for a long time.



Actually I asked this because there were reports that those gunships were for spares. 

Thanks for the update, now it means total 55 AH-1 cobras are available for service.


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## Donatello

Emmie said:


> Actually I asked this because there were reports that those gunships were for spares.
> 
> Thanks for the update, now it means total 55 AH-1 cobras are available for service.



Hi Emmie,

Can you provide a breakdown of the units delivered and their time frame?

Thanks.


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## Last Hope

Emmie said:


> Means, 16 AH-1F from Jordon are flying as well! Sorry, didn't follow update on this.



14 Jordanian are flying. I am not sure about your 16 figure, that could mean 2 have been used for spares. I have heard similar stories that some of them would be in service while rest would be stored for future spare-parts sanctions.

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## Luftwaffe

sancho said:


> Some strange news from Germany (google translated):
> 
> Deutsche erwägen Export: Pakistan kann auf Helikopter hoffen - n-tv.de



I believe Pak Army is operating/maintaining 8 or 9 Types of Helis so to get some additional platform would only make sense if we are replacing older platform say Alouette III.

@fatman17


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> 14 Jordanian are flying. I am not sure about your 16 figure, that could mean 2 have been used for spares. I have heard similar stories that some of them would be in service while rest would be stored for future spare-parts sanctions.



The older ones were to be used for spares through cannibalization, all the Jordanians were supposed to be flying last I heard.


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## Emmie

Donatello said:


> Hi Emmie,
> 
> Can you provide a breakdown of the units delivered and their time frame?
> 
> Thanks.



Pal, @fatman17 would be the right person to ask!


----------



## Donatello

sancho said:


> To me too, these helicopters are normally used for uttility, MEDIVAC roles or in the anti tank role as in the pic, but if they come they will remove that capability



These helos can always be retro-fitted with other weapons. If Pakistan buys a large batch, then having them equipped with basic close air support weapons will be helpful.


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## Luftwaffe

Donatello said:


> These helos can always be retro-fitted with other weapons. If Pakistan buys a large batch, then having them equipped with basic close air support weapons will be helpful.



IF spares are available in long run, would be beneficial to purchase otherwise no point.


----------



## sancho

Donatello said:


> These helos can always be retro-fitted with other weapons. If Pakistan buys a large batch, then having them equipped with basic close air support weapons will be helpful.



Not possible if they are sold with EUM restrictions, which is likely according to Germany's export laws and especially in case of Pakistan today. That's why they strip them down, otherwise they would offer them directly with a new batch of weapons, like the PARS 3 ATGM, that they offer for Rudra.


----------



## Donatello

sancho said:


> Not possible if they are sold with EUM restrictions, which is likely according to Germany's export laws and especially in case of Pakistan today. That's why they strip them down, otherwise they would offer them directly with a new batch of weapons, like the PARS 3 ATGM, that they offer for Rudra.



They can strip them of all the weapons they want, but if and when they are purchased by Pakistan, they become a property of Pakistan. Pakistan can mount weapons other than those offered by the conventional west. For example, if the batch being bought is big in number, then Pakistan can seek assistance from China in mounting any weapons on them. And we all know that regardless of the restrictions, China has always supplied offensive and defensive weapons.


----------



## sancho

Donatello said:


> They can strip them of all the weapons they want, but if and when they are purchased by Pakistan, they become a property of Pakistan. Pakistan can mount weapons other than those offered by the conventional west. For example, if the batch being bought is big in number, then Pakistan can seek assistance from China in mounting any weapons on them. And we all know that regardless of the restrictions, China has always supplied offensive and defensive weapons.



As I said, not if they are sold with EUM restrictions and please tell me which western fighter or helicopter in Pakistans forces could use Chinese weapons?


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## fatman17

sancho said:


> As I said, not if they are sold with EUM restrictions and please tell me which western fighter or *helicopter* in Pakistans forces could use Chinese weapons?



the cobra fires the Bakhtar-Shikan.
it is rumoured that the Mirage-ROSE are capable of firing the SD-10 BVR.


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## Bratva

sancho said:


> As I said, not if they are sold with EUM restrictions and please tell me which western fighter or helicopter in Pakistans forces could use Chinese weapons?



Mirage Rose fired Brazilian ARM


----------



## sancho

fatman17 said:


> the cobra fires the Bakhtar-Shikan.
> it is rumoured that the Mirage-ROSE are capable of firing the SD-10 BVR.



Isn't that a varient, developed in Pakistan? I have some doubts about the SD 10 though.



mafiya said:


> Mirage Rose fired Brazilian ARM



From Brazil, not China. Weapons developed in Pakistan is one thing, Chinese weapons, radars, avionics...is another, especially for German arms and techs.


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> As I said, not if they are sold with EUM restrictions and please tell me which western fighter or helicopter in Pakistans forces could use Chinese weapons?



Sancho,

Pakistan got Nukes and reactors while it was under all sorts of western sanctions. Did it stop Pakistan from becoming a nuclear power? No.

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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Isn't that a varient, developed in Pakistan? I have some doubts about the SD 10 though.
> 
> 
> 
> From Brazil, not China. Weapons developed in Pakistan is one thing, Chinese weapons, radars, avionics...is another, especially for German arms and techs.



You're bringing in high tech weapons for fighter aircraft.

I am talking about these helicopters being retro fitted with basic machine guns and say 2-4 quad rocket launchers. Nothing high tech or sanction prone there. These can also be fitted with the FLIR systems on offer by many European firms, like THALEs, which can help Pakistan to use these choppers as a scout system and relay the information back to the ground troops. Just like the Star SAFIRE system on the c130s.


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## Gentelman

sancho said:


> Isn't that a varient, developed in Pakistan? I have some doubts about the SD 10 though.
> 
> 
> 
> From Brazil, not China. Weapons developed in Pakistan is one thing, Chinese weapons, radars, avionics...is another, especially for German arms and techs.



the source program is necessary to integrate weapon systems on a jet or heli which Pakistan don't have but pakistan had done a lot of work on F-7s and others such chineese platform and upgraded them with european tech i.e matrain baker ejection seats,Griffo radars etc&#8230;&#8230;
so if they want to integrate a weapon they can but don't need as china can offer any weapon&#8230;&#8230;
JF-17 is something else in this matter as Pakistan have source codes of them sovcan integrate and test any sort of weapons&#8230;&#8230;
about heli Pakistan Armed forces are just using used US or Russian tech of MIl or Cobra basically and i don't suppose Pakistan have any chineese heli in Army aviation or PAF just PN use chineese Z-9EC&#8230;&#8230;
Most western Planes give complete package and offer anything so don't need to integrate Chineese system on them&#8230;&#8230;
if needed PAF is quite familiar with F-16 and Mairages&#8230;further upgrades are done on Mairages and Upgraded F-16 engine locally in PAC&#8230;&#8230;
To integrate weapons a specific weapon integration request is sent to manfacturer and them $$$ and then all jets which is time consuming and waste of money&#8230;&#8230;
and now not needed as Mairages are at edge of retirement and F-16 offers a complete package with Aim 120C to Harpoons and Aim 9C etc&#8230;


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## Jango

Donatello said:


> You're bringing in high tech weapons for fighter aircraft.
> 
> I am talking about these helicopters being retro fitted with basic machine guns and say 2-4 quad rocket launchers. Nothing high tech or sanction prone there. These can also be fitted with the FLIR systems on offer by many European firms, like THALEs, which can help Pakistan to use these choppers as a scout system and relay the information back to the ground troops. Just like the Star SAFIRE system on the c130s.



MI-17 and Bell 412 does that job, no need to bring in a third platform.


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## Glitcher

nuclearpak said:


> MI-17 and Bell 412 does that job, no need to bring in a third platform.



yeah but we need them in numbers dont we ?


----------



## sancho

Donatello said:


> You're bringing in high tech weapons for fighter aircraft.



It doesn't matter if you talk about high tech missiles, a normal gun or even FLIR systems. When arms will be sold with EUM restrictions you need approval for any change and the Germans are very strict on these things, at least in such obvious arms deals. But as I said, I would be surprised why PA would buy these old helicopters at all.


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## Jango

That's one dirty exhaust!!!

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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


>



Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Destroying Golden Crops

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## Jango

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Destroying Golden Crops



This looks like some proper airfield, see the ATC in the background.


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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> This looks like some proper airfield, see the ATC in the background.



ya but most of our airfields are surrounded by crops - fields. So it doesn't surprise me, i've seen a few pictures of choppers standing and talking of from fields.


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## Jango

I am hearing rumors that a heli has crashed in Wazirabad area...anybody can confirm?
@fatman17, @Last Hope...


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## Last Hope

GUJRANWALA: A training helicopter of the Pakistan Army on Thursday crashed near Wazirababad area injuring two pilots.

According to initial reports, the helicopter was on a routine training mission. Injured pilots have been shifted to nearby hospital.

Sources said helicopter involved in the crash was of US-built Sikorsky version.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> GUJRANWALA: A training helicopter of the Pakistan Army on Thursday crashed near Wazirababad area injuring two pilots.
> 
> According to initial reports, the helicopter was on a routine training mission. Injured pilots have been shifted to nearby hospital.
> 
> Sources said helicopter involved in the crash was of US-built Sikorsky version.



It was a Schweizer from Gujranwala.


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## Haseebullah

nuclearpak said:


> It was a Schweizer from Gujranwala.



Also hearing that the pilots bailed out.
How exactly do pilots bail out of a helicopter?


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## Jango

Haseebullah said:


> Also hearing that the pilots bailed out.
> How exactly do pilots bail out of a helicopter?



Not sure, maybe they just jumped out at the last moment before impact.

The heli landed in a small muddy field straight side up...recovery team is there.

Footage was shown on Geo, I spotted somebody I know as well!!!


----------



## Haseebullah

nuclearpak said:


> Not sure, maybe they just jumped out at the last moment before impact.
> 
> The heli landed in a small muddy field straight side up...recovery team is there.
> 
> Footage was shown on Geo, I spotted somebody I know as well!!!



Good to hear that everyone is safe.


----------



## ejaz007

*Army aviation copter crashes near Gujranwala*







GUJRANWALA: Two pilots were injured when an aviation helicopter of Pakistan Army crashed near Gujranwala Friday, Geo News reported.

According to initial report, the helicopter belonging to Pakistan Army Aviation crashed near Gujranwala, injuring two pilots who have been shifted to CMH for treatment.

Army aviation copter crashes near Gujranwala - thenews.com.pk


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## fatman17

*Army aviation copter crashes near Gujranwala * 
May 03, 2013 - 




GUJRANWALA: Two pilots were injured when an aviation helicopter of Pakistan Army crashed near Gujranwala Friday, Geo News reported.



According to initial report, the helicopter belonging to Pakistan Army Aviation crashed near Gujranwala, injuring two pilots who have been shifted to CMH for treatment.


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## fatman17

Sweizer-500 looks like.


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## Jango

The condition of the instructor is serious.

It was a training flight from Rahwali base, the instructor was from Pak Navy on deputation to army while the student was a Captain from Army. 

The crash doesn't look to be too serious though...maybe it was a hard impact.

Helicopter was a S-300 as I previously said.


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## Blackpearl

this helo is Schwizer 269C or as refered in US Army TH-300C


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## razgriz19




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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> this helo is Schwizer 269C or as refered in US Army TH-300C



269C is a model, just like Mi-17 V5 or V1 etc, S-300 is the basic name,



nuclearpak said:


> The condition of the instructor is serious.



The instructor (naval officer on deputation) has now been shifted to CMH Pindi, received some fractures.

Wish him a speedy recovery.

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## fatman17

Pakistan Army Schweizer TH-300C Crash

Posted on: May 3rd, 2013

Pakistan Army/303rd Aviation Group Schweizer TH-300C 186117 performs a training flight at Rahwali Army Air Base
on November 17, 2009. One of the type operating from there crashed this morning, injuring both crew members. AFD Alan
Warnes.

A PAKISTAN Army Aviation Corps Schweizer TH-300C helicopter crashed this morning during a training flight near
the city of Gujranwala, in the Wazirabad district of Punjab province, east Pakistan. The two pilots were injured and
taken to a combined military hospital in Gujranwala.

The helicopter was operating from Rahwali Army Air Base, near Gujranwala, where it was based with the 303rd
Aviation Group, which also flies Bell UH-1H Iroquois. AFD-Dave Allport


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## Nishan_101

ejaz007 said:


> *Army aviation copter crashes near Gujranwala*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GUJRANWALA: Two pilots were injured when an aviation helicopter of Pakistan Army crashed near Gujranwala Friday, Geo News reported.
> 
> According to initial report, the helicopter belonging to Pakistan Army Aviation crashed near Gujranwala, injuring two pilots who have been shifted to CMH for treatment.
> 
> Army aviation copter crashes near Gujranwala - thenews.com.pk



I think that PAC can develop on its own small helicopters like this and also Robinson class ones...



ejaz007 said:


> *Army aviation copter crashes near Gujranwala*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GUJRANWALA: Two pilots were injured when an aviation helicopter of Pakistan Army crashed near Gujranwala Friday, Geo News reported.
> 
> According to initial report, the helicopter belonging to Pakistan Army Aviation crashed near Gujranwala, injuring two pilots who have been shifted to CMH for treatment.
> 
> Army aviation copter crashes near Gujranwala - thenews.com.pk



I think that PAC can develop on its own small helicopters like this and also Robinson class ones...



Imran Khan said:


> take some time bro . we don't need an approval from dahaka for deliveries
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> another



Better than Z-9 for PN and Bell-412 for Army


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## Jango



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## Last Hope

_Waiting silently in a dark corner, for the time to kill._

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## Liquidmetal

Last Hope said:


> _Waiting silently in a dark corner, for the time to kill._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUO
> 
> stunning image, a lethal viper worthy of the name cobra and kudos to the photographer.


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## A.Rafay

Army personnel carry boxes of ballot papers for the PK-61, 62, 63 and NA-23 constituencies. The boxes were transported by an army helicopter to Kohistan, in Islamabad on Saturday, May 04, 2013.

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## Blackpearl

I must say here,
Today's sad incident of LDA Plaza at Lhr, certain deficiencies were clearly visible when helicopters were not having required rescue equipment. No hoist fitted heli was seen. Big Helos like MI-17 having bigger rotor downwash were used to lift people from edges of building, which itself was dangerous as individuals may loose balance under heavy rotorwash. 
The most unprofessional yet successful (fortunately) rescue was made by Punjab govt helo, by lifting person by a simple rope only. God Forbids if man had lost control, then what would be consequences. 
Most suitable helo in this episode may be UH-1H, of interior ministry due to its smaller size, but it was also not having any hoist system. 
I think, it must be mandatory by CAA for all civil registered helos in Pakistan to have rescue gear available with them, if not fitted permanently, so that they may be called for rescue attempt anytime. Similarly, all civil helos for VIP tasks should be able to be converted to rescue helo, when required.


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## Cool_Soldier

Any chance we can have apachi helicopters..? apachi AH-64 see some Apachi nice Pics..


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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> I must say here,
> Today's sad incident of LDA Plaza at Lhr, certain deficiencies were clearly visible when helicopters were not having required rescue equipment. No hoist fitted heli was seen. Big Helos like MI-17 having bigger rotor downwash were used to lift people from edges of building, which itself was dangerous as individuals may loose balance under heavy rotorwash.
> The most unprofessional yet successful (fortunately) rescue was made by Punjab govt helo, by lifting person by a simple rope only. God Forbids if man had lost control, then what would be consequences.
> Most suitable helo in this episode may be UH-1H, of interior ministry due to its smaller size, but it was also not having any hoist system.
> I think, it must be mandatory by CAA for all civil registered helos in Pakistan to have rescue gear available with them, if not fitted permanently, so that they may be called for rescue attempt anytime. Similarly, all civil helos for VIP tasks should be able to be converted to rescue helo, when required.



I fully agree, the UH 1H that came initially seemed to be finding a landing spot on the roof and rescue people or do recce...maybe it was already on a mission and routed here.

Then as you said, the attempt by Punjab govt Mi 17 was pathetic. Having a man dangling from rappelling rope is ridiculous. 

Finally when the Army Mi 17 came, I thought they would use the winch and hoist people up as they did during the flood, but sadly they didnt have a winch and used rope ladder. I know for a fact that Bell 412 with winch is available at Rahwali, and for rescuing 20 odd people from a confined space would be best suited for that heli. But then again, PAA crews arent trained for fire rescue, there was a moment when the heli was surrounded by smoke. You have to account for effect of downwash on flame, smoke and many other factors being a fire rescuer. I dont believe the AW 139 crews are trained for fire rescue either.

The more appalling fact was non availability of a ladder to reach the 9th floor (it did seem to come close to it though). But that is for another thread.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

nuclearpak said:


> Heres a better image of the FN MAG model 60-30, one used for aircraft and helis.



A rare pic? *here is a FN MAG on a Pak army aviation helicopter*:






Probably never posted here on PDF..

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## Last Hope



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## hassan1




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## Imran Khan

hassan1 said:


>



so deal done ? or old imges ?


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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> so deal done ? or old imges ?



What deal hazoor......aren't these types already in service. ??

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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> What deal hazoor......aren't these types already in service. ??



sir jee i was talking abut AS-550 fennec deal not AS-350 .

I GOT IT DEAL IS DONE FOR 10 BAIES IN DEC2012


&#8592; Vietnam&#8217;s Locally Made Target Drone in Action
Malaysian Foreign Minister To Help MAHB in Maldives Airport Dispute &#8594;
No Fennec For The Philippines
Posted on December 3, 2012	by hafizuddinsulaiman

Despite the initial reports that the Philippines will receive up to 10 AS-550 Fennec armed helicopters from France, it seems that the offer has been withdrawn by its manufacturer due to new procurement negotiations with the helicopters&#8217; original customer, the Pakistani Army.
Eurocopter AS-550 armed helicopter destined for the Pakistani Army

Eurocopter AS-550 armed helicopter destined for the Pakistani Army
Pakistani Army's AS-350 Ecurueil

Pakistani Army&#8217;s AS-350 Ecurueil

Initially, the Pakistani Army has ordered 10 AS-550 Fennec armed helicopters to supplement its existing AS-350 Ecureuil light transport helicopter. The procurement met with problem hence they were subsequently offered to the open market. Despite the previous report suggest that the Fennec will be procured by the Philippines military, the latter&#8217;s long procurement process (here) as well as the Pakistani renewed interest on the armed helicopters means that they will be operated by the Pakistani Army Aviation Corp instead.

The AS-550/555 Fennec helicopter have been in service with various ASEAN Air Force and Navy. The RSAF has been previously operating six trainer and 14 armed versions of the Fennec before they were replaced by the EC-120B Colibri and the AH-64D Apache in their respective roles.


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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> sir jee i was talking abut AS-550 fennec deal not AS-350 .
> 
> I GOT IT DEAL IS DONE FOR 10 BABIES IN DEC2012



Oh you mean the armed version which was earlier put on hold.


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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> Oh you mean the armed version which was earlier put on hold.



yes janab now its ours

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## Liquidmetal

Imran Khan said:


> yes janab now its ours



Is this confirmed? Are the Fennecs in our possession or are we still trying to cut a deal and also why can't we try and get the ones being retired by the RSAF? Get some cheap and reliable attack helis to put the woosh in the TTPs beacksides as they rush to meet their maker.


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## Jango

So that is why PA gave a tender for the 2.75" rockets.

BTW, those are 2 different helis in the pic, so expect them to be in service with us shortly.

THe pics are from France and the registration is French and a test pilot is at the helm.


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## Windjammer



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## GHOST RIDER

which side arms do our aviation pilots use? @fatman17 @ANTIBODY


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## Last Hope

GHOST RIDER said:


> which side arms do our aviation pilots use? @fatman17 @ANTIBODY



Glocks and Berettas.

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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> Glocks and Berettas.



You sure about Glock? Because the last heard only ISI and SSG operatives were armed with Glock. Glock has a ban on exports to Pakistan, so we don't have many in our military.

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## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> You sure about Glock? Because the last heard only ISI and SSG operatives were armed with Glock. Glock has a ban on exports to Pakistan, so we don't have many in our military.


Yes I am very sure, PAF, PAA pilots and SSG all have Glocks as their side arms.

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## Jango

Donatello said:


> You sure about Glock? Because the last heard only ISI and SSG operatives were armed with Glock. Glock has a ban on exports to Pakistan, so we don't have many in our military.



Personal use is also widespread. The Turkish weapons are also sometimes used.

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## Donatello

nuclearpak said:


> Personal use is also widespread. The Turkish weapons are also sometimes used.



The last time i was in market, you couldn't purchase Glock just like that. But yes Turkish and Brazilian sidearms are common as a common man can buy one easily and get a license for it.

That's why i was asking. I know for sure that Intelligence and SSG personal use Glock.

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## Abingdonboy

GHOST RIDER said:


> which side arms do our aviation pilots use? @fatman17 @ANTIBODY



Has anyone got a pic of PA/PAF pilots with their sidearms?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Donatello said:


> The last time i was in market, you couldn't purchase Glock just like that. But yes Turkish and Brazilian sidearms are common as a common man can buy one easily and get a license for it.
> 
> That's why i was asking. I know for sure that Intelligence and SSG personal use Glock.



Hes right they are using glocks...

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## TaimiKhan

Abingdonboy said:


> Has anyone got a pic of PA/PAF pilots with their sidearms?



If you have time and search this thread, you will find many pictures of army aviation officers having their side arms, especially in operational areas. 

I guess you won't be able to see any PAF pilot with his sidearm as till date haven't seen anyone having one. May be used on in times of war.

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## TaimiKhan

Donatello said:


> You sure about Glock? Because the last heard only ISI and SSG operatives were armed with Glock. Glock has a ban on exports to Pakistan, so we don't have many in our military.



Reason being, the pilots are issued official sidearms due to the operational requirement, just like SSG and others using due to the operational requirement for them. Otherwise sidearms have been withdrawn from the conventional forces and MP-5s are to be used in that role. The normal PA/FC officers that you see wearing sidearms are the ones which they have bought for themselves out of their own pockets and the choices ranges from personal choice to the affordability of each officer's pocket. Bought CF98s/Russian Vikings/Makarov/some Turkish ones for some officers myself on their request based on personal choice and in some cases whatever best they could in the given budget. 

Nowadays have learnt that units deployed in operational areas have received a few new Turkish origin pistols which are issued selectively on case to case basis, but majority of the officer have now bought one of their own.


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## Donatello

TaimiKhan said:


> Reason being, the pilots are issued official sidearms due to the operational requirement, just like SSG and others using due to the operational requirement for them. Otherwise sidearms have been withdrawn from the conventional forces and MP-5s are to be used in that role. The normal PA/FC officers that you see wearing sidearms are the ones which they have bought for themselves out of their own pockets and the choices ranges from personal choice to the affordability of each officer's pocket. Bought CF98s/Russian Vikings/Makarov/some Turkish ones for some officers myself on their request based on personal choice and in some cases whatever best they could in the given budget.
> 
> Nowadays have learnt that units deployed in operational areas have received a few new Turkish origin pistols which are issued selectively on case to case basis, but majority of the officer have now bought one of their own.



The people i know who have Glock is like it's not their own sidearm but the unit they are serving in.

So for example if you were serving in Quetta but then moved to Karachi, your sidearm would remain with Quetta and you would be issued a new one in Karachi. They have to account for every single Sidearm, holster, bullet and magazine that was issued. 

Also, it doesn't seem fair that the officers have to purchase the side arm out of their own pocket. Units should supply them when needed. So if a Pakistan Army Aviation pilot is going to fly over hostile territory, then he should be given a sidearm.


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## Pinnacle

Donatello said:


> You sure about Glock? Because the last heard only ISI and SSG operatives were armed with Glock. Glock has a ban on exports to Pakistan, so we don't have many in our military.



Why Glock Export ban on Pakistan.. ??


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## fatman17

*Z-10 Thunderbolt* 

An Army Aviation Z-10 attack helicopter is shown here. Co-developed by the 602 Institute, CHAIC and HAIG as the first dedicated modern attack helicopter for PLA Army Aviation since 1998, Z-10 is generally believed in the same class as South African Rooviak and Italian A129, yet still not as capable as American AH-64 Apache. The helicopter adopts a standard gunship configuration with a narrow fuselage and stepped tandem cockpit with the gunner in the front seat and the pilot in the backseat. The fuselage appears to have a stealthy diamond shaped cross section to reduce RCS. It also have a 5-blade main rotor made of composite material and an AH-64 style 4-blade tail rotor. All the vital areas of the fuselage including the cockpit and fuel tanks are believed to be protected by the armor plates. It weighs about 5.5 tons and was powered initially by two P&W PT6C-76C turboshaft engines (rated @ 1,250kW each) on the prototypes. However domestic developed engines (upgraded WZ-9) are being used in production batches due to the embargo imposed by the west. Its rotor and transmission systems may have been designed with extensive technical assistance from Eurocopter France and Agusta. Its main weapon are 8 newly developed KD-9 or KD-10 ATGMs in the same class of American AGM-114 Hellfire. A 23mm cannon is mounted under the chin, aimed via gunner's helmet mounted display. Also up to 8 PL-90 AAMs can be carried against enemy helicopters and slow-moving fixed wing aircraft. Its range can be further extended by external fuel tanks. Similar to AH-64, Z-10 features nose mounted PNVS and TVDS housing FLIR, TV camera, laser range finder and designator. RWR and radar jammer antennas are installed on both sides of the forward and aft fuselage. In addition, two laser warning receivers was installed on top of the pylon tips. The helicopter may have been fitted with an integrated communication/navigation system, a comprehensive ECM suite, IFF, chaff/flare launchers, 1553B data bus, HOTAS and a glass cockpit. A preliminary concept was developed in 1995 by Russian Kamov OKB as a contrator. The full development started in 1998 at 602. Two prototypes were built in 2003 and six more were built in 2004. The first flight of 02 prototype took place on April 29, 2003. Several Z-10 prototypes powered by PT6C-76C engine were evaluated by the Army in 2007. However the production was halted due to the embargo of PT6C-76C engine imposed by the Canadian government. In 2009 it was reported that an "optimized" version (Z-10A?) was under development and expected to enter the mass production. This version is powered by the less powerful WZ-9 engines (~1,000kW) thus was forced to have its weight reduced by eliminating certain less-critical parts such as less armor protection, smaller PNVS/TVDS on the nose similar to that of Z-9WA and a smaller weapon load. After its design certification in October 2010, the first batch of 12 Z-10s entered the service with PLA Army Aviation (S/N LH951xx) in late 2010. More Z-10s are entering the service with the Army (S/N LH981xx, 961xx, 941xx, 991xx, 911xx) since late 2011. However some still carry the original PNVS/TVDS installed on the prototypes but are powered by WZ-9 turboshafts. This version also features additional equipment such as an IR jammer (?) installed on the cockpit roof. It has been speculated that Z-10 could be powered by the new WZ-16 turboshaft engine (~1,500kw) in the future.

- Last Updated 5/24/13

in talking to a retd PAA officer, the army is interested in the Z-10 if western avionics and weapons suite can be fitted on the helo. army wants to be able to utilise its vast quantities of TOW2 and Bakhtar-Shikan ATGW's instead of inducting a 3rd ATGW in the KD-10.
further the army is pinning its hopes on getting the 12-20 super-cobras from the US under a FMS deal.

pl talk about 'glocks' in the guns corner section please.


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## Luftwaffe

fatman17 said:


> - Last Updated 5/24/13
> 
> in talking to a retd PAA officer, the army is interested in the Z-10 if western avionics and weapons suite can be fitted on the helo. army wants to be able to utilise its vast quantities of TOW2 and Bakhtar-Shikan ATGW's instead of inducting a 3rd ATGW in the KD-10.



What is the point to show interest and acquire Z-10 if PA wants western avionics [removing the Chinese avionics defeats the purpose of its development] and weapons why not just go for T-129 in small numbers gradually over the years increase the numbers when and IF funds available.

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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> What is the point to show interest and acquire Z-10 if PA wants western avionics [removing the Chinese avionics defeats the purpose of its development] and weapons why not just go for T-129 in small numbers gradually over the years increase the numbers when and IF funds available.



just providing feedback. he stated a view, you stated a view. we will only know if any development takes place.


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## nomi007

nice image of uh-1

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## DESERT FIGHTER

TaimiKhan said:


> Reason being, the pilots are issued official sidearms due to the operational requirement, just like SSG and others using due to the operational requirement for them. Otherwise sidearms have been withdrawn from the conventional forces and MP-5s are to be used in that role. The normal PA/FC officers that you see wearing sidearms are the ones which they have bought for themselves out of their own pockets and the choices ranges from personal choice to the affordability of each officer's pocket. Bought CF98s/Russian Vikings/Makarov/some Turkish ones for some officers myself on their request based on personal choice and in some cases whatever best they could in the given budget.
> 
> Nowadays have learnt that units deployed in operational areas have received a few new Turkish origin pistols which are issued selectively on case to case basis, but majority of the officer have now bought one of their own.



Dont know much... but when my father was commanding a FC militia in baluchistan in 2009... we did buy Vikings with funds for the troops.


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> nice image of uh-1



they are just air-frames. stripped of everything...!


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## Jango



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## Jango



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## 3030

fatman17 said:


> they are just air-frames. stripped of everything...!



Is it Pakistan?


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## Jango



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## Windjammer



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## Last Hope



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## Last Hope



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## Jango



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## fatman17

*Pakistan Army Aviation Martyrs&#8217; Monument*


Posted on: June 12th, 2013


The impressive Martyrs' Monument at Qasim is a tribute to all aviators who have died in service, whatever the circumstances. A civilian contractor can be seen polishing up the plaques for Martyrs&#8217; Day, which was April 30, just a few days after this photo, was taken. All photos, AFD-Alan Warnes

Alan Warnes recently visited a monument at Qasim Army Air Base, Rawalpindi which remembers all the Aviation aviators that have lost their lives.

A NEW monument has been built at Qasim, the Pakistan Army Aviation&#8217;s (PAA) main hub, which remembers the Shaheeds (Martyrs) who have lost their lives flying with the PAA.

Some 65 crashes have claimed lives since 1953, the bulk of them comprise L-19 Bird Dogs (16) and MFI-17 Mushshaks (21). There have been various reasons, but they are attributed mainly to bad weather or unauthorized maneuvers. Fortunately the PAA has managed to cut out the latter in recent years.

The PAA has always been on the forefront in rendering sacrifices whether it has been the India &#8211; Pakistan wars, recce and rescue operations in northern areas of Pakistan, disaster relief operations (floods, earthquakes etc.), UN peace keeping missions or operation Al-Mizan &#8211; the ongoing war effort in the west against miscreants.

Considering the number of sorties flown in Operation Al-Mizan, that has seen many RPGs incidents and helicopters riddled with bullets, there has been a surprisingly low fatality rate.

Having said that, the biggest loss of life occurred on July 3, 2009, when Mi-17 58635 crashed during one of those sorties, claiming 42 lives. The biggest loss of PAA personnel on any aircraft took place on July 31, 1988, after a Puma flying from Gilgit to Skardu in the Himalayas crashed.

Every year, on Martyrs Day, now held on April 30, a ceremony is held to remember them. It is arguably, one of the finest memorials dedicated to lost aviators.

A close up of the right side of the Martyrs' Monument.


May 2, 1953 Auster Aiglet W-4105
Captain Vajid Ali Khan was on a recce mission when his aircraft crashed 4 miles (6.5km) from Chaklala.

June 11, 1953 Auster Aiglet serial unknown
Captain AMS Ahmed was on a local flying mission when his aircraft collided with another mid-air, three miles east of Chaklala.

December 1, 1960 L-19 Bird Dog 5993
Captain Syed Aziz Ul Hassan was sent to Munda Qala to arrange the recovery of a damaged aircraft. He departed Dargai, with Major Maqbool, the Officer Commanding 199 Workshop, when the Bird Dog hit a mountain top not far from their destination. The fuel tank ruptured, caught fire and the aircraft crashed.

December 10, 1961 L-19 Bird Dog 1631
Captain Ikram Ullah Khan was flying the Bird Dog over Pindi Bhattian, when he started a descent to the airfield there. After a low pass at 15ft (4m) and a turn down wind the port wing struck the ground, which caused the aircraft to crash and catch fire.

February 28, 1963 L-19 Bird Dog 5997
Having been posted to Flight Instructors School (FIS), Captain Muhammad Riaz Malik practiced flying from the rear seat, while Captain Raja Sarfraz was in the front. While flying low level near Dhudial the aircraft crashed and caught fire. Despite being extinguished by local villagers, neither of the pilots survived.

December 6, 1965 L-19 Bird Dog 1704
Captain Mirza Sultan Baig was flying his Bird Dog with passenger Captain Abdul Qayyum on a training sortie when they crashed at Bhagtanwala (Sargodha).

December 2, 1968 L-19 Bird Dog 1968
During practiced force landings, student pilot Captain Raza Ahmed Khawaja of the Army Aviation School allowed his aircraft to descend below the authorized altitude for a go-around. He tried to pull up but the aircraft stalled and crashed in Khurrar village, 
five miles (8km) south of Chakri.

June 27, 1970 L-19 Bird Dog 6005
Major Tahir Mahmood Jilani along with passenger Major Noor Muhammad (Engineers) were on board their Bird Dog, looking for the body of Captain Akbar who had drowned earlier in Kabul River near Nowshera. They were flying in marginal visibility conditions, when they disappeared, the aircraft never returned to base. It is unclear if their bodies were recovered.

December 7, 1971 L-19 Bird Dog unknown
Major Fayyaz Ibrahim crashed in the Rajistan sector while evading an Indian Air Force fighter after returning from a reconnaissance mission. The pilot was posthumously awarded Sitara-i-Jurat.

December 7, 1971 L-19 Bird Dog unknown
Captain Aftab Ahmed Khan and Hav Muhammad Abdul Sharif were on a flying mission when this aircraft was chased by Indian fighters and hit. The aircraft crashed and caught fire.

January 4, 1972 L-19 Bird Dog 003
A Bengali officer from the 24 Signals Battalion, 2Lt Humayun Raza hijacked the Bird Dog, flown by Major Muhammad Qasim, just after take-off from Mianwali strip near Pasroor. He shot the pilot twice in the head with a .38mm revolver and headed to India. An enquiry into the incident revealed he was a qualified Cessna 150 pilot from Dacca (now Bangladesh) with 230 hours. He was to face the General Officer Commanding (GOC) 6 Armoured Division on January 5, 1972, charged with causing death to a civilian by a military jeep in December 1970. Qasim Army Aviation Base Dhamial is now named in the memory of Major Qasim. The aircraft crashed while the Bengali officer was trying to land the aircraft in Indian Territory.

February 8, 1972 L-19 Bird Dog 986
Major Anwar Mohi-Ud-Din was attempting to land his aircraft at the Qila Subha Sing airstrip, but lost too much altitude on his final turn towards the runway. He attempted to rectify the problem with a sharp turn very low over trees, but it stalled and hit the ground in the middle of the runway.

April 14, 1972 L-19 Bird Dog 100
The aircraft lost height overhead Mandi Sadiq Ganj after passenger, Major Fateh Khan (24 Baloch) pressed his leg on the rear control column while waving to troops below. On the release of the pressure, the aircraft pulled up sharply as the pilot had been exerting a backward pressure on the stick. The stall took place at 300-350ft (90- 100m) and recovery could not be made.

October 23, 1974 Alouette III 1950
Major Tauhid ul Haq along with Lt Ali Said Yabooni (from the UAE Army) crashed about 10 miles (16km) from Dhamial (now Qasim) during a routine training mission in clear visibility.

July 4, 1975 L-19 5995
Shortly after take-off from Quetta-Khalid airfield, Captain Sajid Nazeer encountered an engine fire with his Bird Dog. The aircraft stalled and crashed while attempting to get back to base.

April 16, 1976 Alouette III 5189
Major Muhammad Nasrullah Khan Mahmood and Major Khalid along with three passengers (Brigadier Daud, Brigade Commander 80 Brigade; Colonel Zaka, Col Staff HQ FCNA and Major Shahid OC Signals Coy) departed Astor. However, shortly after take-off the helicopter experienced problems and crashed two miles (3km) from the helipad.

July 13, 1976 Bell 206 1834
Nk Murad Ali was holding the helicopter&#8217;s documents, when some blew away. He rushed after them but was unfortunately hit fatally by the tail rotor. Murad Ali (Hangar No2) is Qasim Army Aviation Base is named in his memory.

January 24, 1977 Mi-8 0424
Captain Farooq Dasti along with Captain Shafqat Ullah left Quetta for Qasim via the Sibi-Multan route in their Mi-8. It departed Sibi at 1155 hours, flew for nine minutes and crashed. All occupants were killed including six Aviation personnel.

March 7, 1978 L-19 Bird Dog 199
Major Tanvir Ahmed crashed ten miles east of Mangla after an unauthorized maneuver over his native village. The aircraft caught fire.

March 27, 1978 L-19 Bird Dog 5987
During a flight from Kohlu, Captain Zahid Shah undertook an unauthorized maneuver along with his course mate Captain Jamil Ur Rehman when the aircraft crashed. The aircraft went into a spin after the pilot misjudged the aircraft&#8217;s height due to restricted visibility and went straight into the ground.

July 30, 1979 L-19 Bird Dog 5988
Major Muslim Ghani, with Major Anser Ahmed on board, executed a maximum performance take off with 30&#730; flap, nose high attitude and reached 300ft (90m) above ground level when an engine emergency occurred. The aircraft stalled, crashed and caught fire.

July 11, 1980 L-19 Bird Dog 004
Major Shah Nawaz took off from Peshawar with Brig Syed Husnain as passenger but encountered low clouds and poor visibility. The pilot made three circles over Qasim Khel village but the aircraft impacted the hills in the Dara Adam Khel range resulting in death of both pilots.

September 7, 1980 MFI-17 (78-5)064
Major Zahid Jadoon was on a weather checking mission from Lahore accompanied by OC Ops PADF Base Lahore Wing, Wg Cdr Pervez Khan. The pilot decided to take on unauthorized low level aerobatics over a large gathering of spectators at the airport and hit the PIA Building. The aircraft caught fire and both pilots died.

October 7, 1982 MFI-17 (78-5)094
Major Aziz Ahmed along with student pilot Lt Ijaz Ahmed took off from Qasim bound for Tilah. The aircraft suffered an engine failure about eight miles (13km) west of Sohawa and crashed, claiming lives of both.

December 2, 1983 Mi-8 4518
During maneuvers that involved eight Mi-8s the helicopter crashed as it arrived near a drop zone. All crew Major Mahmood Hussain, Captain Shafqat Hussain, Sub Khuda Dad Khan, Hav Muhammad Anwar, Nk Muhammad Saleem perished.

September 17, 1984 MFI-17 76-520
After termination of an artillery shoot, Capt Tariq Mahmood Sheikh and Hav Muhammad Husain were heading back on a low level flight to Mangla. En route they hit high tension wires running across River Kahan, near Malot village. After striking the wires and getting entangled the aircraft fell to the ground, bounced into the air and became inverted.

August 25, 1986 MFI-17 (81-5)109
Captain Shahid Mahmood along with Captain Abdul Fazal suffered a power loss over Muzaffargarh city during a close support mission with the Pakistan Air Force. The aircraft crashed, claiming lives of both Captains.

April 2, 1987 MFI-17 (78-5)067
During rehearsals for the air display marking the passing out ceremony of P-28 Course, Major Ahmed Bilal Qureshi lost control during inverted flight. The nose of the MFI-17 started dropping and despite the mobile officer guiding the pilot to push the stick forward the aircraft could not be controlled. It subsequently crashed and caught fire.

December 14, 1987 Bell 206 1834
While participating in 1 Corps&#8217; Exercise Thunder Bolt the helicopter crashed in poor visibility. Captain Nadeem Ullah and Hav Fareed had taken off from Kharian and the helicopter was going to be an exhibit at Sambrial for visit of President of Pakistan.

January 10, 1988 MFI-17 84-5124
Lt Col Saleem Razza along with Major Arif was carrying out a simulated force landing at Faisal, when the engine failed to respond after he opened power. With the low altitude, low airspeed, banked attitude of the aircraft, poor light conditions and non-availability of landing area the situation was pretty serious. The aircraft stalled, then dropped, bounced, crashed and caught fire.

February 24, 1988 Alouette III 1953
During a operational mission in Dansum Sector the pilot, Major Ijaz Haider Zaidi, with co-pilot Captain Waqar Hussain Baig, experienced a loss of power after reaching 200-300ft (60-90m). Unfortunately the auto-rotation (landing with no engine) was not successful due to the high altitude and the helicopter crashed. Crew Chief Havildar Riasat Khan survived.

July 31, 1988 Puma 1406
Lt Col Sajid Islam and Major Khalid Akhtar Minhas departed Gilgit for Skardu. After 30 minutes No 2 engine failed and the pilot decided to land immediately, close to Basha village, 18 miles (25km) west of Skardu. With a single engine he could not stop the fast rate of descent and the helicopter crashed, caught fire and was completely destroyed. All six on board, the two pilots and Sub Mohammad Rafique, Hav Laiqat Ali, Hav Abdul Haq and Hav Muhammad Yousaf were killed.

January 18, 1989 MFI-17 (88-5)156
Captain Hamid Sarwar of 1 Army Aviation Squadron died in the crash while carrying out an air test. An engine malfunction forced the pilot to turn back when he was at 400ft (122m). The aircraft crashed short of Mangla and was completely destroyed.

May 7, 1989 MFI-17 88-5173
Captain Shahid Irshad departed Sialkot air strip for Rahwali with passenger Captain Muhammad Akhter next to him. When 6 miles (9.5kms) north east of Rahwali the pilot descended the aircraft to undertake unauthorized low level flying. The cause of crash is likely to have been a partial power loss/intermittent engine response when one of the plugs in the engine was found dead and a fuel line clogged.

May 24, 1989 MFI-17 76-518
Captain Tasawar Hussain Hamayun of 11 Aviation Squadron was killed when he crashed his aircraft during an unauthorized maneuver over his native village, Thao Hamayun.

December 23, 1989 MFI-17 (83-5)112
Captain Syed Raza Ali and Captain Amir Yasin of 9 Army Aviation Squadron were flying their Mushshak from Rafiqui to Peshawar. A low cloud base over Kohat saw the pilots try to detour around the cloud but crashed into hills.

March 5, 1990 SA315 Lama 2685
Capt Abdul Qayyum and Capt Kamal Masood, along with technicians Nk Bahadur Khan and Nk Sultan Ahmed, were all killed when the Lama crashed while departing Qasim. The likely cause of the damage is the failure of the right mounting bolt of tail rotor gear box.

July 17, 1990 MFI-17 (81-5)111
Captain Waqar Ahmed along with student pilot Captain Zaighum Abbas Jafri was killed when their Mushshak crashed while practicing an aerobatic display for the graduation ceremony of the P-31 Class, on July 26, 1990. In the process of completing a third consecutive aileron roll at Gujrat airfield the aircraft brushed a tree top and impacted the ground while inverted. After impact the aircraft bounced in the air, turned upright caught fire and came to a complete stop after hitting telegraph wires.

November 28, 1991 MFI-17 (89-5)182
Captain Naveed Khan carried out an unauthorized low level maneuver over Islamabad. Unfortunately he lost control of the aircraft, which crashed, claiming his life.

January 9, 1992 MFI-17 (88-5)161
Major Muhammad Naveed was flying from Lahore to Okara, when eight miles (13kms) from Okara he hit a tree some 35ft (10m) high in poor visibility. After impact it hit high tension wires and he was electrocuted.

March 21, 1992 Lama 2673
Major Syed Tahir Ali and Captain Muhammad Nawaz landed their Lama at Arif Post at some 19,300ft (5,880m). The helicopter remained on the pad for 20-30 seconds but then lost grip because of the soft snow under the skids. The main rotors struck the mountains and the helicopter entered into an uncontrolled right spiral descent accompanied by a snow avalanche. Both pilots died of their injuries.

June 17, 1992 MFI-17 (86-5)157
Captain Shahid Rehman Tariq flew an unauthorized maneuver at critically low speed near Gujrat when he lost control and the aircraft crashed.

August 1, 1992 SA 315 Lama 2692
Major Khalid Sohail Sultan and Major Babar Ramzan, along with Brigadier Masood Naveed, were carrying out reconnaissance of AOR. The helicopter was hit by a missile fired by the Indian Army and crashed in Chulung area. The occupants were awarded Sitara-e-Jurat posthumously on March 23, 1993.

September 2, 1992 MFI-17 (79-5)071
Major Rashid Mansoor and Major Safdar Jahanzeb were flying their Mushsak for an artillery shoot. While returning from Tilla Ranges back to Qasim the aircraft crashed at Taraki Hills due to inclement weather.

April 24, 1993 AB 205 352
The helicopter hit the ground in the Rahwali training area after wrong techniques were adopted during maneuvers. The helicopter sustained major damage, with Captain Nasir Hussain Bangash and Captain Raja Shahid both is losing their lives.

September 14, 1994 MFI-17 (79-5)086
During an unauthorized maneuver, Captain Waqar Saeed crashed his aircraft. He had taken the aircraft down to a low altitude, after which he executed three low level steep turns, the last being tighter in radius and steeper in bank than the previous turns. During the last turn, the aircraft flipped over and spun into the ground.

March 4, 1998 Alouette III 1490
Lt Colonel Nayyer, along with three maintenance personnel, departed Qasim for Mangla. However the helicopter entered poor visibility and crashed near Sohawa. All four were killed.

June 10, 1999 Mi-17 58611
While returning from the Gultari operational area after a fire fighting mission, the Russian helicopter crashed near Satpara Valley. All eleven on board including the five aviators, Major Muhammad Hanif, Captain Muhammad Uzair, Hav Muhammad Shabbir Assi, Hav Bashir Ahmed and Nk Naseer Ahmed lost their lives. It is thought low clouds over the Deosai Plains blocked all exit routes from the valley and left them no chance of finding a diversion airfield.

July 1, 1999 MFI-17 (95-5)368
During the first leg of a training and navigation mission from Rahwali to Multan the aircraft experienced an engine malfunction. Major Ahmed Waseem Bukhari and Captain Kanwar Rashid elected to force land at Qadir Pur Rawan, some 12 miles (20km) northeast of Multan. However the aircraft hit the ground and both died.

October 31, 1999 MFI-17 (79-5)086
Captain Shahid Nisar Aulakh and Captain Masood Ullah Baig were carrying out rehearsals in their aircraft in Rahwali for the graduation ceremony of Class P40. On their third practice the MFI-17&#8217;s dive angle was shallower, resulting in less speed than required for aileron roll. The nose was pitched higher than needed so the speed dropped and the aircraft went into a spin. Owing to the low altitude, the aircraft could not recover and crashed.

April 24, 2003 Mi-17 58614
Major Imtiaz Ahmed and Major Syed Nadeem Ali departed Chillum for Minimerg with eight barrels of oil and nine passengers on board. Across Burzii Pass they encountered bad weather and the helicopter went into a &#8216;white-out&#8217; conditions. The pilot decided to turn around but unfortunately hit a snow covered ridge. The helicopter crashed and caught fire with loss of all on board including two technicians, Hav Muhammad Nawaz and Muhammad Naseem.

June 29, 2004 Mi-17 United Nations
Njk Muhammad Amir, a qualified airframe technician was killed when a United Nations Mi-17 crashed in Sierre Leone.

October 15, 2005 Mi-17 &#8216;58153&#8217; (58513?)
Lt Col Ahmed Ali Shah and Captain Abdur Rahim had been participating in relief and rescue operations in the earthquake affected areas of Azad Jammu and Kashmir. While offloading supplies at Sher Camp, the crew, which also comprised N/Sub Muhammad Saleem and Hav Jahanzeb, noticed a buildup of bad weather and decided to abandon their other drop offs and return to Bagh. Immediately after take-off they encountered low clouds, rain and thunder activity with almost zero visibility. While trying to avoid the weather the helicopter hit a mountain ridge approximately 1 mile (1.5km) northwest of Sher Camp. All the crew were killed.

June 21, 2006 Bell 412 786-210
During Operation Al Mizan, the pilot diverted from his original route to fly over Baran Dam while flying through a dry nullah and the skids touched the water twice. The third time the helicopter went into a nose down attitude. The cyclic was pulled excessively aft, the main rotor flexed down and cut the tail boom. The helicopter crashed with loss of all three on board &#8211; Captain Faisal Khan, Captain Khan Shams Naveed Iqbal and L/Nk Ikram Ullah.

February 6, 2008 Bell 412 786-201
During an Operation Al Mizan mission near Dargai (SWA) with GOC 9 Division Major General Javed Sultan, Brigadier Saeed Ahmed, Brigadier Muhammad Afzal Cheema on board, the helicopter crashed. Pilots Lt Col Umer Farooq and Captain Shehzad Aslam were flying the Bell 412 on an recce sortie over the AOR when it crashed a few minutes after take-off.

August 13, 2008 MFI-17 (95-5)372
Captain Muhammad Bilal was on a training mission when he encountered bad weather. The pilot tried to avert the situation by flying on instruments but due to heavy mist and fog he got disorientated and the aircraft crashed near Bahawalpur.

July 3, 2009 Mi-17 58635
Captain Sohail Abbas and Capt Kurram Shahzad were on a mission moving troops in support of Operation Al Mizan from Parachanar to Peshawar. During the second mission of the day the helicopter was engaged by miscreants and their anti-aircraft guns. The helicopter crashed 15.7 miles (25 km) south west of Peshawar with all 42 occupants killed. It included the two pilots and technicians Hav Hazrat Hussain, Hav Ali Asghar and Hav Asif Rashid.

October 24, 2009 Mi-17 58639
Major Hamayan Jehanzeb and Captain Masoudullah Baig were flying on a logistics mission from Khar to Nawa Pass supporting Op Al Mizan. While at Nawa Pass helipad the helicopter came under rocket attack by the miscreants. The pilot took off immediately but the helicopter caught fire so the pilot decided to force land. Unfortunately the helicopter crashed and caught fire. The three on board, which also included NK Nadeem Khan, were lost.

February 10, 2010 AH-1F 786-034
Major Muddassar Razzaq and Captain Asim Karim were detailed to engage miscreants in Terah Valley with two Bell 412s in support of Op Al Mizan. The helicopter was hit by rockets fired by the miscreants and crashed into Terah Valley (Khyber Agency). Both pilots died.

February 23, 2010 Mi-8MTV 58504
Major Kafeel Ahmed and Captain Rizwan Sohail were flying on a night training mission at Ghazi airfield, Tarbela. During the second circuit the crew encountered a technical problem and crashed. Flight Engineer Hav Masood Ur Rahman suffered critical injuries and died.

April 8, 2010 MFI-17 (86-5)147
Capt Abdul Rashid Hakeem encountered a technical malfunction after taking off from Peshawar. He tried to land the aircraft and while trying to avoid a built up area the MFI-17 crashed in Naghuman area near Charsada.

September 12, 2010 MFI-17 (80-5)095
Captain Kamran Ikram Khan was killed when he crashed during a solo flying training mission. The aircraft lost control and crashed at Rasul Nagar.

December 22, 2010 MFI-17 (95-5)363
Captain Muhammad Zahoor ul Haq was flying his Mushshak with Hav Maqsood Ahmed alongside from Zhob to Quetta-Khalid on a navigation mission in a formation of three MFI-17s. About eight miles (13km) south east of Muslim Bagh the aircraft hit a mountain and caught fire, due to heavy winds.

May 23, 2012 S-300?
Instructor Pilot Major Zahid Bari and student pilot Captain Irfan Ahmed of Rotary Course 13 (and ex 34 Frontier Force Regiment) were detailed for flying in their Schweizer S-300. While on their sortie, radio contact was lost and after a search the helicopter was found ditched in the River Chanab. The body of Captain Irfan was recovered on May 28 and Major Zahid, who had been honored the Tamgha-e-Basalat medal, was recovered on May 31, 2012.

July 11, 2012 Mi-8MTV 58508
The Mi-8MTV was on a test flight from Skardu when it crashed. The pilots, Major Amir Azam and Major Shuaib, plus crew Hav Abdul Waheed, Hav Zeeshan Haider and Nk Muhammad Imran, were killed, although there was one survivor.


&#8220;ONE CAN NEVER CONSENT TO CREEP WHEN ONE FEELS THE IMPULSE TO SOAR.&#8221;

Helen Keller was an American author, political activist, and lecturer. She was the first deaf and blind person to earn a Bachelor of Arts degree. One of her verses is inscribed on a plaque with a dedication to the fallen aviators.

AFD

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## fatman17

*Z-19 Black Cyclone*

A PLA Army Z-19 is shown here performing training exercise without any weapons. Z-19 is a light scout/attack helicopter based on H425 and developed by HAIG. The helicopter features a narrow fuselage and a tandem cockpit layout similar to those of Z-10 (see above), but with pilot sitting in the front seat and gunner in the back seat. Both crew are protected by shoulder armor plates, crash-resist seats and non-retractable front landing gears. It also features Z-9WA style nose mounted RWRs and an EO turret (FLIR, TV and laser range finder). In addition, an MMW phased array radar (from 14th Institute) was recently seen installed on top of the mast, suggesting the helicopter now is capable of attacking ground targets in bad weather conditions using improved KD-10 ATGM with an MMW seeker. Z-19 is thought to retain the same engine (WZ-8), transmission and rotor systems with minor modifications from H425 which speeds up the development. The helicopter can also carry the air-to-air and air-to-ground weapon package similar to that of Z-9WA under a pair stub wings, including KD-9 or KD-10 ATGMs (up to 8), PL-90 AAMs as well as 12.7 or 23mm gun pods and rocket lanchers. Some specifications: TO weight 4,500kg, empty weight 2,350kg, max cruising speed 245km/h, max climb rate 9m/s, range 700km, ceiling (no ground effect) 2,400m, endurance >3hr. Z-19 is expected to support the heavier Z-10 attack helicopter from Changhe in a high-low combination, replacing the earlier Z-9WA. It was reported that Z-19 prototype first flew in May 2010. However one prototype reportedly crashed on September 18, 2010. Currently Z-19 is in production and is entering service with the Army (S/N LH989xx, 929xx, 999xx).

- Last Updated 6/12/13 

china's answer to the ALH.


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## Jango

AH-1F Cobras shot from a Bell 412.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152897259405247

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## Imran Khan



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## Nishan_101

nuclearpak said:


> AH-1F Cobras shot from a Bell 412.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152897259405247



Really PA should have negotiated well for AH-1 with US in 2002. Like ask about 31-51 of them and some great numbers of there spares as they have many AH-1s that can be used as spares and then give PAC the task to over haul Airframe and Engines and refit it with the latest avionics being bought from USA.

Although buying them for a reasonable cost from USA was the best idea. I am sure then we could have about 50-70 AH-1s/AH-1P in our inventory that can deployed like from Kashmir to Thar like 10 unit of them in 5-7 places.


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## Jango



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## Jango



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## Jango

Mi-17 cockpit, note the GPS!






Note: All pictures by Maroon Clicks, not by me.

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## Last Hope

Who are Maroon Clicks? There is another group of PAA photographers named 'Lens & Moment'. Looks like our young officers are now becoming a part of social groups during their free time!


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Who are Maroon Clicks? There is another group of PAA photographers named 'Lens & Moment'. Looks like our young officers are now becoming a part of social groups during their free time!



Maroon Clicks is another one I came across...don't know much about them. Lens & Moment isn't by an officer AFAIK, or am I wrong?


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Maroon Clicks is another one I came across...don't know much about them. Lens & Moment isn't by an officer AFAIK, or am I wrong?



Lens & Moments is owned by someone from PAA. Will check out Maroon Clicks. After news leaked about some SAM systems, which you are aware about, the AF was very furious and strict online restrictions were imposed upon everyone and they weren't allowed to share details with anyone online or in person.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> After news leaked about some SAM systems, which you are aware about,





No I am not...mind sharing? PM?


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## Jango

Major sahib ki kameez latki hui hai!!!

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## Imran Khan

PAF SAR on sea classic

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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> Lens & Moments is owned by someone from PAA. Will check out Maroon Clicks. After news leaked about some SAM systems, which you are aware about, the AF was very furious and strict online restrictions were imposed upon everyone and they weren't allowed to share details with anyone online or in person.



What SAM news?


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## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> What SAM news?



Send NP a PM and I expect him to know about it!


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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> Send NP a PM and I expect him to know about it!



We can't PM due to post limit so i'll ask NP. Thanks.


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## Bratva

Donatello said:


> We can't PM due to post limit so i'll ask NP. Thanks.



Hint: Chinese SAM


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## Donatello

mafiya said:


> Hint: Chinese SAM




Ahan. Got it.

Actually, if someone did release photos, they should have been expelled. What an idiotic thing to do.


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## Last Hope



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## Bratva

Got this pic from ISPR, Is this some kind of foreign exercise?


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## Last Hope

mafiya said:


> Got this pic from ISPR, Is this some kind of foreign exercise?



Yes. The helicopter of Turkish. I believe this is from joint Pak-Afghan-Turk exercise about a year or two ago.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


>



This picture was taken by an officer whose picture you posted in that Cobra series album!


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## amanwas

Interesting....


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## Last Hope

What AB is this?

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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> What AB is this?



Either Quetta or Peshawar, since Multan does not have any mountains and Tarbela does not cater to commercial traffic.

Probably Peshawar I would say, Quetta does not have Cobras.


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## Jango

BTW, those guys shouldn't be that near to the active runway and that too at a time when the aircraft is taking off. I remember the stern warnings that were given over at Multan airbase, even though it had no parallel taxiway and the Army Aviation taxi ramp joined up at the middle of the runway.


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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> Either Quetta or Peshawar, since Multan does not have any mountains and Tarbela does not cater to commercial traffic.
> 
> Probably Peshawar I would say, Quetta does not have Cobras.



Most likely Peshawar.. the infamous mountains that force the "jalebi" landing circuit might be those in the distance.


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## TaimiKhan

Oscar said:


> Most likely Peshawar.. the infamous mountains that force the "jalebi" landing circuit might be those in the distance.



I am 99% sure it isn't Peshawar. The scene is from Quetta, Cobras do go to Quetta & are many times stationed there, and many times they come from Quetta to SWA for operational deployment for 10-15 day time periods.

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Either Quetta or Peshawar, since Multan does not have any mountains and Tarbela does not cater to commercial traffic.
> 
> Probably Peshawar I would say, Quetta does not have Cobras.



there are no Cobras at PWE


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> there are no Cobras at PWE



Peshawar is used as a base camp for FATA ops. Refueling and small maintenance, a transit between Multan and FATA.

Look at GE, you can see around 2-3 Cobras stationed there.


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## Last Hope

There are Cobra at Peshawar. They aren't permanently based there but used as a base for attacks in particular radius. This picture should be from Quetta. The runway at Peshawar has green trees and plants around it and Quetta has mountains visible.


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## SQ8

TaimiKhan said:


> I am 99% sure it isn't Peshawar. The scene is from Quetta, Cobras do go to Quetta & are many times stationed there, and many times they come from Quetta to SWA for operational deployment for 10-15 day time periods.



Its the A310's that bugged me.. but apparently they do operate out of Quetta.. 
Moreover, if it was Peshawar.. it would not be this devoid of man made scenery... along wth the fact that I remember clearly that Peshawar's runaway has more greenery ..so yeah.. Quetta it is.


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## Jango

Look at the picture again, the holding area (where the cobra is parked) is of asphalt and dark while the runway threshold area is of cement and lighter in color. Right after the holding area there is only dirt and no more concrete run off area or anything.

Now look at Google earth and you would find that the runway 17 of Peshawar fits the bill perfectly...the runway threshold and holding area arrangement of Quetta from either runway does not match this picture.

But the lack of greenery is a question... maybe the pic was taken during dry season or something.


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## TaimiKhan

nuclearpak said:


> Peshawar is used as a base camp for FATA ops. Refueling and small maintenance, a transit between Multan and FATA.
> 
> Look at GE, you can see around 2-3 Cobras stationed there.



Nops, just refueling is done as there is no dedicated Sqd or personnel of Cobra here at Psh. And Cobras from Multan directly use the route to go to SW/NA. Dedicated Cobra Sqd detachment is stationed at Ghazi Base, they go to FATA areas of bajaur, mohmand, khyber, orakzai, swa, nwa from Ghazi base, its their full time base. psh is just a stop over in case they are low on fuel. 

what you see over peshawar come and go from ghazi base. its just a 10 min drive for them.


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## TaimiKhan

nuclearpak said:


> Look at the picture again, the holding area (where the cobra is parked) is of asphalt and dark while the runway threshold area is of cement and lighter in color. Right after the holding area there is only dirt and no more concrete run off area or anything.
> 
> Now look at Google earth and you would find that the runway 17 of Peshawar fits the bill perfectly...the runway threshold and holding area arrangement of Quetta from either runway does not match this picture.
> 
> But the lack of greenery is a question... maybe the pic was taken during dry season or something.



Those mountains in the back are nothing to match with what Peshawar has, and the emptiness/background clarity/vastness of the base/airport is something which either Quetta has or its some place else.


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## Jango

TaimiKhan said:


> Nops, just refueling is done as there is no dedicated Sqd or personnel of Cobra here at Psh. And Cobras from Multan directly use the route to go to SW/NA. Dedicated Cobra Sqd detachment is stationed at Ghazi Base, they go to FATA areas of bajaur, mohmand, khyber, orakzai, swa, nwa from Ghazi base, its their full time base. psh is just a stop over in case they are low on fuel.
> 
> what you see over peshawar come and go from ghazi base. its just a 10 min drive for them.



Hmm...a couple of years back, a few folks of the EME unit for Cobras were often kept at Peshawar...maybe they shifted them to Tarbela.


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## Nishan_101

I think PA, PN as well as PAF should give their helicopter requirements to PAC and see that will PAC do JV with China on some Rotarty Aircrafts

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## Imran Khan



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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


>



This heli went to Ukraine for overhaul...explains the new paint job and shiny new filter!

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## Fieldmarshal

Imran Khan said:


>




that my friends is an MI-8


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## Jango

Fieldmarshal said:


> that my friends is an MI-8



No my friend.

The simplest way to distinguish b/w a Mi-17 and Mi-8 is the tail rotor. Mi-17 has tail rotor on left hand side from a pilot's perspective (as seen here) while a Mi-8 has it on the right hand side.

The other way is to look at the engine intakes, but here they are covered by the filters.

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## Bratva

nuclearpak said:


> This heli went to Ukraine for overhaul...explains the new paint job and shiny new filter!



Due to filters, engine produce less noise?


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> Due to filters, engine produce less noise?



Filters for sand and FOD.

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## ptldM3

mafiya said:


> Due to filters, engine produce less noise?



An air filter can decrease or increase noise depending on how much air is pulled in and how that air is funneled, but regardless I Doubt that there would be any noticeable difference since rotor blades noise would negate most everything.

One of the most effective ways to reduce a helicopters noise is by designing the rotors to be quieter, or using a coaxial.

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## Armstrong

Hey @Oscar why doesn't the PAF or the Army enter into joint-ventures with different foreign & local companies to at least increase the manufacturing of some of the more basic (or supporting) equipment that our Armed Forces would need ? Perhaps some of the on-board sensors for the Cobras or an indigenous avionics suite for the K-8s - Something more in the realm of 'automation' & 'technology' as opposed to concentrating solely, for the time being, on the relatively crude developments like MBTs or APCs etc. Which is not to belittle how much technical know-how it takes & I'm sure my utter lack of eloquence can't really get across what I mean but what I was thinking was developing some of the supporting industry to, maybe, in 10-15 years time come up with our own GENESIS type system or ECM suite for some of our low-end platforms....maybe even an indigenous capability to do a ROSE I & II styled upgrades on helicopters we could acquire the way we did with the Mirages ?

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## Last Hope

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Has France delivered the 10 AS550 C3 attack helicopters to Pakistan after it had again offered them in 2012 according to The Philippine Star ? .... According to SIPRI, they were delivered in 2010 ...
> 
> Which variant is Pak using currently?
> 
> @WebMaster @Zarvan @Aeronaut @F.O.X



Pakistan has AS350 in service for quite time and the AS550 C3 variant too. The lasts confirmed news was, they were in Pakistan, at a major airbase, undergoing trials. Later, rumors had that they are now in service.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


>



Courtesy Windjammer

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## Jango

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Courtesy Windjammer



That pic must be recent since this IL-78 was at CHaklala a couple of days ago.

So the Fennecs have been delivered then!

Looking forward to see pics of them in Pakistan!


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> That pic must be recent since this IL-78 was at CHaklala a couple of days ago.
> 
> So the Fennecs have been delivered then!
> 
> Looking forward to see pics of them in Pakistan!




and IL78-004 received last year ..... So the event is not so old ....


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## Imran Khan




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## notorious_eagle

Lots of chatter going on among the PA Aviation folks because PA has restarted talks with the Turks for the acquisition of T-129's. Talks were called of last time because necessary funds could not be arranged, lets see what the outcome is this time.

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## Kompromat

notorious_eagle said:


> Lots of chatter going on among the PA Aviation folks because PA has restarted talks with the Turks for the acquisition of T-129's. Talks were called of last time because necessary funds could not be arranged, lets see what the outcome is this time.

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## fatman17

Aeronaut said:


>



lets wait and see.....

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## Rafi

Regarding the T-129's - PM NS has personally got involved with this project, and has bought it up, with PM Erdogan - so lets wait and see, the negotiations are regarding two squadrons worth.


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## fatman17

Rafi said:


> Regarding the T-129's - PM NS has personally got involved with this project, and has bought it up, with PM Erdogan - so lets wait and see, the negotiations are regarding two squadrons worth.



sirjee at $40m per it is an expensive proposition.....where is the money going to come from for such a capital investment. $800m to $1.0B with infrastructure and training....completely new platform.

i would rather prefer 20 AH-1Z Super-Cobras. they may be made available in 2015 as relations improve.

for $500m FMS financing


----------



## Rafi

fatman17 said:


> sirjee at $40m per it is an expensive proposition.....where is the money going to come from for such a capital investment. $800m to $1.0B with infrastructure and training....completely new platform.
> 
> i would rather prefer 20 AH-1Z Super-Cobras. they may be made available in 2015 as relations improve.
> 
> for $500m FMS financing



You are right - but the Turks are pushing for a foreign sale, as they want the Saudis to also buy it - NS is personally involved - long term financing by the Turks is feasible - as long as we provide sovereign guarantee's.


----------



## fatman17

Rafi said:


> You are right - but the Turks are pushing for a foreign sale, as they want the Saudis to also buy it - NS is personally involved - long term financing by the Turks is feasible - as long as we provide sovereign guarantee's.



you r privy to info which i cannot comment on....lets c what happens


----------



## Rafi

fatman17 said:


> you r privy to info which i cannot comment on....lets c what happens



NS apparently is the main catalyst behind this, and PAA is desperate for CAS assets for their ops.


----------



## Khaqan Humayun

We want to see Tiger in Pak army but Gov is not giving fund I think.

Russian attack choppers are good for Pak.


----------



## Imran Khan



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## Thorough Pro

Damn. costlier than Thunders? but then thunders cant provide CAS like an attack heli can.



fatman17 said:


> *sirjee at $40m per it is an expensive proposition*.....where is the money going to come from for such a capital investment. $800m to $1.0B with infrastructure and training....completely new platform.
> 
> i would rather prefer 20 AH-1Z Super-Cobras. they may be made available in 2015 as relations improve.
> 
> for $500m FMS financing


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## Bratva

Tender for arming fennec......... 2.75&#8221; Rockets for Launcher Type FZ-220 Installed on Fennec Helicopter

a. 75% HE
b. 25% Inert/Practice

</title> </head> <body> </body> <html> <head> <title>View All Tenders

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## Bratva



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## nomi007




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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


>



1000 times dekhi hai ye ab to ye choppers wapas bhi chaly gay


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## Last Hope

mafiya said:


>



http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/247305-romancing-army-aviation.html

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## Imran Khan

raat ko windows khol ker rakhty hain kya ? hawa lagwany ke liye ?

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## alimobin memon

fatman17 said:


> lets wait and see.....



yes indeed. but I heard The chinese Attack choppers have not a good armour or is equivalent to current Cobra fleet of PAK. Pakistan army needs a heavy attack choppers and Turkey Does not Sanction us of anything so PAA is considering. Tiger Eurocopter was also sought but Sanctions prevented. Good news is Tai chopper is also compatible with tow and nato standard anti tank launchers. personally I dont like the main Turret of tai chopper its just 20mm. wont do good enough against armour. But the 30 mm systems on chinese , apache and tiger are really effective.

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## Jango

The Fennecs are in Pakistan now, atleast a couple...PAA pilots did their test flights in France as well and also in Pak.

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## Imran Khan



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## Windjammer



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## alimobin memon

Can Fennecs be equipped with anti tank weaponry ?


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## Neptune

alimobin memon said:


> Can Fennecs be equipped with anti tank weaponry ?



I don't think so. It's more like a Light Scout Heli.


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## Last Hope

alimobin memon said:


> Can Fennecs be equipped with anti tank weaponry ?



AS-550C3 probably cannot carry Anti-tank. AS-555SP can carry torpedoes.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


>



FLIR looking at camera

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## Imran Khan

alimobin memon said:


> Can Fennecs be equipped with anti tank weaponry ?



yes it can

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## Imran Khan



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## fatman17

"A tender was launched in May for 2.75-inch unguided rockets carried by the armed variant of the* Eurocopter AS550 C3 Fennec *lightweight multirole helicopter, which has good high-altitude capabilities.

To this point, it has been confirmed only that Pakistan operated the unarmed variant in service, but a deal for an armed variant has been in varying stages of negotiation since at least 2008.

The Fennec is equipped with stub wings for disposable stores and a rooftop infrared sensor, which Pakistan had initially asked to be moved to the chin of the helicopter. It is uncertain whether this modification has been carried out."

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> "A tender was launched in May for 2.75-inch unguided rockets carried by the armed variant of the* Eurocopter AS550 C3 Fennec *lightweight multirole helicopter, which has good high-altitude capabilities.
> 
> To this point, it has been confirmed only that Pakistan operated the unarmed variant in service, but a deal for an armed variant has been in varying stages of negotiation since at least 2008.
> 
> The Fennec is equipped with stub wings for disposable stores and a rooftop infrared sensor, which Pakistan had initially asked to be moved to the chin of the helicopter. It is uncertain whether this modification has been carried out."





Why is Pakistan buying so many different Types of Helicopters ? Is it for China ? so chinese technicans can inspect them ? I mean !It must be a nightmare for the PA when they have to maintain more than 15 Types of Helicopters......more cost in Training and spare parts !


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## Jango

Ulla said:


> Why is Pakistan buying so many different Types of Helicopters ? Is it for China ? so chinese technicans can inspect them ? I mean !It must be a nightmare for the PA when they have to maintain more than 15 Types of Helicopters......more cost in Training and spare parts !



15 types of helicopters?


----------



## shanixee

Ulla said:


> Why is Pakistan buying so many different Types of Helicopters ? Is it for China ? so chinese technicans can inspect them ? I mean !It must be a nightmare for the PA when they have to maintain more than 15 Types of Helicopters......more cost in Training and spare parts !



Chinese dont need Pakistan for this at least..


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## Last Hope



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## fatman17

*3 main suppliers*

1 USA - Bell (Cobras and 412's)
2 FRANCE - Eurocopter (Pumas and Fennecs)(Alouettes not in production anymore but spares are plenty)
3 RUSSIA/UKARINE - Mil (Mil-8/17)

fourth could be GERMANY for the BO-105's

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## fatman17

*Z-10*It has been speculated that Z-10 could be powered by the new WZ-16 turboshaft engine (~1,500kw) in the future.


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## Jango



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## nomi007



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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> *3 main suppliers*
> 
> 1 USA - Bell (Cobras and 412's)
> 2 FRANCE - Eurocopter (Pumas and Fennecs)(Alouettes not in production anymore but spares are plenty)
> 3 RUSSIA/UKARINE - Mil (Mil-8/17)
> 
> fourth could be GERMANY for the BO-105's




You did forget the :

Bell 206 Jet Ranger

Bell UH-1 Huey

SA 315B Lama

AW139,


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## Last Hope

He is talking about suppliers, which come under the same as mentioned.

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## Jango

Ulla said:


> AW139,



AW139 is not used by the Pak Army Aviation.


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## jhonjames

Nice That's Great Good Information


----------



## AUSTERLITZ

Do PA cobras use hellfires or older TOWs?


----------



## Inception-06

nuclearpak said:


> AW139 is not used by the Pak Army Aviation.



YEs but it is flown by PA


----------



## Jango

Ulla said:


> YEs but it is flown by PA



Nope...not flown by PA.


----------



## TaimiKhan

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Do PA cobras use hellfires or older TOWs?



TOWs. Hellfires will never come for now.

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## nomi007

Aerospatiale AS-555AN Fennec

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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


>

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## fatman17

Supplier....Recipient....order..Model.............................Type..................Status..Ordered....Delivered.......Comments.
France.....Pakistan.....10.....	AS-350/AS-550 Fennec.....Light helicopter.....New.....2004.....2006 - 2006.....AS-350B3 version

France.....Pakistan.....10.....AS-350/AS-550 Fennec.....Light helicopter.....New.....2007.....2010 - 2010.....Armed AS-550C3 version
France.....Pakistan.....7......AS-350/AS-550 Fennec......Light helicopter.....New.....2009.....2011 - 2011.....S-350B3 version


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## Jango



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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## Jango



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## nomi007

which type of serial number is painted

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## nomi007

Fenestron
is pakistan is operating any heli which have Fenestron


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## Jango

nomi007 said:


> Fenestron
> is pakistan is operating any heli which have Fenestron



Pak Army, no. Navy uses the Z-9.


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## nomi007

Cobra touching ground&#8230;&#8230;rare view

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## nomi007

near my village tilla firing rang

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## Saleem

nomi007 said:


> near my village tilla firing rang



the car looks like div or corps cpmmanders car....

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## Super Falcon

well most of aviation army helicopters are 30 years old and most of them we got in cherity we dont have helicopters which we need for mountain snowish terrain mission MI 17 is basic helicopter we need something like NH 90 and chinkook and Mi 24 hind like machines heavylifter we need desprately in pakistan every year we have disasters and these chinkooks can be used for military personal transport in mountains sea where you go chinkook is lifter for 4X4 cars for pakistan army dont know who calls the shots in pakistan army

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## Jango



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## nomi007

Saleem said:


> the car looks like div or corps cpmmanders car....


may be corp commander mangala or corp commander jhelum visited


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## Jango

nomi007 said:


> may be corp commander mangala or corp commander jhelum visited



There is no corp at Jhelum.


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## Saleem

nuclearpak said:


> There is no corp at Jhelum.



there is the XIII Corps there.....


----------



## PakShaheen79

Saleem said:


> there is the XIII Corps there.....



That is 31st Corp and that is in Bahawalpur dear. There is no corp in Jehlum.


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## Jango

Saleem said:


> there is the XIII Corps there.....



There is no XIII Corps in PA, I think you meant XXXI Bahawalpur Corps.

BTW, Jhelum comes under X Corps Pindi...


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## Shiji

I miss the time when the numbers and signs of formations used to be a secret!
Plus here is a AH-1 for when me and my buddies used to live in Gwa Cantt. My dad was in the Aviation so yah I got really close to these beauties! Plus the CH-53 and Chinook! Didn't see the Mi-24 though! IA will see it sometimes later!
P.S That guy censored it not me he is one of my best buds this pic dates back to 2009 when we were doing FSc! good Ol Times!

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## Inception-06

Shiji said:


> I miss the time when the numbers and signs of formations used to be a secret!
> Plus here is a AH-1 for when me and my buddies used to live in Gwa Cantt. My dad was in the Aviation so yah I got really close to these beauties! Plus the CH-53 and Chinook! Didn't see the Mi-24 though! IA will see it sometimes later!
> P.S That guy censored it not me he is one of my best buds this pic dates back to 2009 when we were doing FSc! good Ol Times!



why we cant use the Mi-24 at the frontline in FATA to support our Troops ?


----------



## Shiji

Ulla said:


> why we cant use the Mi-24 at the frontline in FATA to support our Troops ?


Never saw it, might be sitting in some old hangar. To keep a helicopter or anyother equipment for that matter field worthy, you need to have spare parts, since Pakistan does not operate Mi-24s I think it would be really hard for the PAA to have kept them flying for long after they were captured and to use them in Counter Insurgency Ops.


----------



## Inception-06

Shiji said:


> Never saw it, might be sitting in some old hangar. To keep a helicopter or anyother equipment for that matter field worthy, you need to have spare parts, since Pakistan does not operate Mi-24s I think it would be really hard for the PAA to have kept them flying for long after they were captured and to use them in Counter Insurgency Ops.



"IA will see it sometimes later!".............. and with the help of Ukraine is it not possible to buy spare parts and some more Mi-24 ?

sorry for my bad english and my childish questions !

according to wiki Ukraine have 278 Mi-24 in all variants and ca. 40 are in service.


----------



## Jango

We have NO Mi-24...there were only 2 or 3 examples that came through defection of Afghan pilots, and after one or two flights, they were stored in Quetta. They are still there if I recall correctly.

I don't know from where this myth came that we have Mi-24 available for ops...


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

nuclearpak said:


> We have NO Mi-24...there were only 2 or 3 examples that came through defection of Afghan pilots, and after one or two flights, they were stored in Quetta. They are still there if I recall correctly.
> 
> I don't know from where this myth came that we have Mi-24 available for ops...



didnt we sent them to us


----------



## Shiji

Ulla said:


> "IA will see it sometimes later!".............. and with the help of Ukraine is it not possible to buy spare parts and some more Mi-24 ?
> 
> sorry for my bad english and my childish questions !
> 
> according to wiki Ukraine have 278 Mi-24 in all variants and ca. 40 are in service.


What I meant in my statement was that I would love to "See" it as in maybe just sitting arround it doesnot necesarilly have to be in working condition!


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## nomi007




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## nomi007



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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

nomi007 said:


>



so does this mean PakisTan army is dropping down the offer of T-129 ataks made by turkey ... ??


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;4620332 said:


> so does this mean PakisTan army is dropping down the offer of T-129 ataks made by turkey ... ??



news is not credible enough

and even if go for russian attack helis like mi 35, ka52 or mi 28 
they will be cost effective to buy and operate 
and its not like that mi 35 is a dedicated attack heli it isnt comparable with other attack helis its more like for 
counter insurgency 
and t 129 is ****** expensive better go for 3 mi 28 (16 m$) instead of 1 t 129 (40 m $)


----------



## Bratva



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## Dr. Strangelove

mafiya said:


>



its from waar movie


----------



## Jango

mafiya said:


>



Dolphin nose, clamshell doors...weird. 

BTW, this is from the movie WAAR?


----------



## Bratva

nuclearpak said:


> Dolphin nose, clamshell doors...weird.
> 
> BTW, this is from the movie WAAR?



yup, took a screenshot from the trailer. What's weird in it?


----------



## Last Hope

mafiya said:


>



Nose looks weird from the angle!


----------



## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> Dolphin nose, clamshell doors...*weird. *



Not exactly.. 





The read flat door is optional and the operator may choose between that and the clamshell doors.
However, most military Mi-17 variants have the rear ramp while civil derivations have the clamshell doors.
This may be a civil Mi-17 now flying in military colours.


----------



## Jango

Oscar said:


> Not exactly..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The read flat door is optional and the operator may choose between that and the clamshell doors.
> However, most military Mi-17 variants have the rear ramp while civil derivations have the clamshell doors.
> This may be a civil Mi-17 now flying in military colours.



I thought that the ramp door is default for a V5 model, unless the operator specifically asks for a clamshell.

First time I've seen this type of configuration in PA colors, and I have seen quite a few Mi 17.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;4620332 said:


> so does this mean PakisTan army is dropping down the offer of T-129 ataks made by turkey ... ??



BS article unless u believe tht PA uses russiant mbts...


----------



## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> BS article unless u believe tht PA uses russiant mbts...



any ways , whatever PakisTan's army chooses to order they must do it fast ...


----------



## nomi007



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## S-A-B-E-R->

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10153113923555626&set=vb.844295625&type=2&theater
a nice little video of heliski in pakistan with PA


----------



## nomi007



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## nomi007

Sikorsky S-61N
Very rare 1960s official PIA postcard of Sikorsky S-61N

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## Jango

Multan Airbase maybe...

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## Jango



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## Jango



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## Jango



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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Multan Airbase maybe...



Yes Multan it is, picture was posted before too.


----------



## Windjammer



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## nomi007



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## RANJHA

A.O.A sir i am new here and want to ask one Q about surgical tests sir i hav done Masturbation for last 10 years now i hav get rid of it & want to join PAKARMY but the problem is that due to ths bad habit my Penis shrinked and is bend also thick and small in size my testicles are also a bit small in size can i join pakarmy? 
IS THERE ANY PROBLEM IN SURGICAL TESTS?
PLZ REPLY ME SERIOUSLY THNX. My PHYSICAL MEASUREMENT IS AS FOLLOWS:

HEIGHT = 6 FT
CHEST= ENOUGH FOR SLECTION
NO KNEE NOCKIN ETC
weight= 74 kg
i can run 1 mile in 8 minutes
MY EMAIL IS
ranjhano2gmail.com

waiting for ur nice reply thnx


----------



## Icarus

RANJHA said:


> A.O.A sir i am new here and want to ask one Q about surgical tests sir i hav done Masturbation for last 10 years now i hav get rid of it & want to join PAKARMY but the problem is that due to ths bad habit my Penis shrinked and is bend also thick and small in size my testicles are also a bit small in size can i join pakarmy?
> IS THERE ANY PROBLEM IN SURGICAL TESTS?
> PLZ REPLY ME SERIOUSLY THNX. My PHYSICAL MEASUREMENT IS AS FOLLOWS:
> 
> HEIGHT = 6 FT
> CHEST= ENOUGH FOR SLECTION
> NO KNEE NOCKIN ETC
> weight= 74 kg
> i can run 1 mile in 8 minutes
> MY EMAIL IS
> ranjhano2gmail.com
> 
> waiting for ur nice reply thnx








What your member looks like won't get you selected or deselected, it's the Army, remember? It'd be a problem if you were looking to join the **** industry. On a side note, if you have inadequate chest expansion, your chances of selection are negligible.

Somebody should post a picture of this thing to the stupid and funny section, this post was a gem!

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## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=194284890746103




@Aeronaut @nuclearpak @Antibody @Oscar @Imran Khan

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## Imran Khan

wow what a peace of war love it man  ...

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## Zarvan

Imran Khan said:


> wow what a peace of war love it man  ...



Lets test them on Indian posts

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## Roybot

Zarvan said:


> Lets test them on Indian posts



Yes please do. We d happy to shoot down your multi million dollar helicopters.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

old pic:

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## nomi007



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## DESERT FIGHTER

Pakistani Huskies:

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## fatman17

nice pics esp the huskies.!!!

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## PakShaheen79

Zarvan said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=194284890746103
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Aeronaut @nuclearpak @Antibody @Oscar @Imran Khan



Is that a PAA video? Thanks in advance.

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## Dr. Strangelove

PakShaheen79 said:


> Is that a PAA video? Thanks in advance.



no ..........................


----------



## PakShaheen79

Then what is the point in posting it here?


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

PakShaheen79 said:


> Then what is the point in posting it here?



We bought the same helis

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## PakShaheen79

wasm95 said:


> WE BOUGHT THE SAME HELIS



Do ours have the same capabilities? 

PS: Please don't type in caps. Thanks.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

PakShaheen79 said:


> Do ours have the same capabilities?
> 
> PS: Please don't type in caps. Thanks.



yep........


----------



## Last Hope

PakShaheen79 said:


> Is that a PAA video? Thanks in advance.





wasm95 said:


> no ..........................



Yes. These are PAA units under test by producer's pilots.

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## krash

PakShaheen79 said:


> Is that a PAA video? Thanks in advance.





wasm95 said:


> no ..........................



Actually it is. It was shot by the producers though, much the same way the first video of our Blck-52+ was shot by Lockheed. You can clearly see the Pakistani roundel and the PAA style "ARMY" written on its tail.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hind:

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## DANGER-ZONE

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Hind:



*Recently Painted new just for display on AIRBASE TARMAC ....*. 






somebody tell these baboon that war trophies like these are kept in a museum for display not on any AB tarmac.

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## A1Kaid

What is Army doing about the attack helos? Still operating 40 Cobras, need to procure a modern platform asap. They've been looking at T-129 what is the status on that?

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## fatman17

A1Kaid said:


> What is Army doing about the attack helos? Still operating 40 Cobras, need to procure a modern platform asap. They've been looking at T-129 what is the status on that?



no news - no mon - no fun!!!

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## A1Kaid

nuclearpak said:


>




Caption: "35 year old pilot stands next to 35 year old attack helicopter"...



fatman17 said:


> no news - no mon - no fun!!!



Defense budget was considerably increased this year.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/562640/defence-budget-hiked-by-15-per-cent/

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## S-A-B-E-R->

DANGER-ZONE said:


> *Recently Painted new just for display on AIRBASE TARMAC ....*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> somebody tell these baboon that war trophies like these are kept in a museum for display not on any AB tarmac.



I herd it was on active duty not display.

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## Jango

A1Kaid said:


> Caption: "35 year old pilot stands next to 35 year old attack helicopter"...



Actually this pilot is more than 35.

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## DANGER-ZONE

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> I herd it was on active duty not display.



Nope you see those stands close to landing gears are for the support to airframe, you can see them on old pictures as well.
So its for sure it is standing there for long and not even on its own gares.

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## nomi007



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## S-A-B-E-R->

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Nope you see those stands close to landing gears are for the support to airframe, you can see them on old pictures as well.
> So its for sure it is standing there for long and not even on its own gares.



if that is rite than really who was the genius who made it a display on tarmac ?

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## DANGER-ZONE

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> if that is rite than really who was the genius who made it a display on tarmac ?



of course by a genius


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## nomi007

DANGER-ZONE said:


> *Recently Painted new just for display on AIRBASE TARMAC ....*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> somebody tell these baboon that war trophies like these are kept in a museum for display not on any AB tarmac.



better to shift Karachi museum

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## Imran Khan

DANGER-ZONE said:


> *Recently Painted new just for display on AIRBASE TARMAC ....*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> somebody tell these baboon that war trophies like these are kept in a museum for display not on any AB tarmac.



best place PAF museum aas sister birds afghani mig-21 also there


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## DANGER-ZONE

Imran Khan said:


> best place PAF museum aas sister birds afghani mig-21 also there



and cousins an-12 / 26.

I wonder where did the Afghan su-22 go .... its nowhere in the scene ?

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## Imran Khan

DANGER-ZONE said:


> and cousins an-12 / 26.
> 
> I wonder where did the su-22 went .... its nowhere in the scene ?



also they can have grandpa indian bird there too


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## subanday

One Hind-24 was at Multan Aviation Base, it had bullet marks but was intact and in good shape

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## fatman17

AN-12 was in service for a few years but i think it may be at PAF-Peshawar.
the SU-22 is at PAF-Museum or a gate guard at Kamra.

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## Inception-06

subanday said:


> One Hind-24 was at Multan Aviation Base, it had bullet marks but was intact and in good shape










That here ?

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## subanday

EXACTLY....



Ulla said:


> That here ?


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## Jango

Ulla said:


> That here ?



I can bet my nuts that this isnt a hangar at Multan base.


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## Inception-06

nuclearpak said:


> I can bet my nuts that this isnt a hangar at Multan base.



it could be not Multan, but somewhere in Pakistan, thats the point !


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## nomi007

it is better to replace uh-1 Aérospatiale Alouette II,Aérospatiale Alouette III and other old junk with chinese z-20
same like jf-17 thunder 
joint venture

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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> I can bet my nuts that this isnt a hangar at Multan base.



&#8217;at least&#8217; one Mi-24 (the first one to land in Pakistan) was transferred to USA. This is mentioned in some detail in the book &#8216;The Bear Trap&#8217;. 6 Mi-24s in total defected to Pakistan during the Afghan War. One was given to USA, one was gifted to China and one to France (or was it England?). The dates on which these 6 Mi-24s defected is given below together with the pilot(s) name and place where they landed.

Date -------- Pilot ---------- Place

13-07-1985 -------- Capt. Hussain -------- Landed at Miranshah
16-07-1985 -------- Capt. Daud -------- Landed at Miranshah
23-10-1986 -------- Major. Abdul Munir -------- Landed at Kohat
03-10-1987 -------- Capt. Nokolai Petrovich+2 -------- Landed in Mastuj
03-10-1987 -------- Maj. Yevginin Koszminin+2 -------- Landed at Miranshah
03-07-1989 -------- Capt. Sakiuulah -------- Landed at Qila Abduallh

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> it is better to replace uh-1 Aérospatiale Alouette II,Aérospatiale Alouette III and other old junk with chinese z-20
> same like jf-17 thunder
> joint venture



if you see pics posted the fennec's have taken over the role from alouette's in the northern areas


----------



## ziaulislam

A1Kaid said:


> Defense budget was considerably increased this year.
> 
> Defence budget hiked by 15 per cent &#8211; The Express Tribune


Nope that would even cover the rupee devaluation or inflation


----------



## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> at least one Mi-24 (the first one to land in Pakistan) was transferred to USA. This is mentioned in some detail in the book The Bear Trap. 6 Mi-24s in total defected to Pakistan during the Afghan War. One was given to USA, one was gifted to China and one to France (or was it England?). The dates on which these 6 Mi-24s defected is given below together with the pilot(s) name and place where they landed.
> 
> Date -------- Pilot ---------- Place
> 
> 13-07-1985 -------- Capt. Hussain -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 16-07-1985 -------- Capt. Daud -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 23-10-1986 -------- Major. Abdul Munir -------- Landed at Kohat
> 03-10-1987 -------- Capt. Nokolai Petrovich+2 -------- Landed in Mastuj
> 03-10-1987 -------- Maj. Yevginin Koszminin+2 -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 03-07-1989 -------- Capt. Sakiuulah -------- Landed at Qila Abduallh


jo thek the woh gift kar dehe kia baat hai pakistan

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> jo thek the woh gift kar dehe kia baat hai pakistan



what you mean theek and kharab sir ? we have no use of such system without support parts and they were war trophies not for us .


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## nomi007



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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> AN-12 was in service for a few years but i think it may be at PAF-Peshawar.
> the SU-22 is at PAF-Museum or a gate guard at Kamra.



An-12 is in Faisla Museum Karachi right now and su-22 isn't there :\

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## TaimiKhan

Ulla said:


> That here ?



In the late 90s & early 2000, while at Quetta used to see this beast flying. I do remember well to have seen 2 flying at one time and mostly 1 would often take to the skies and do little bit of flying. Quetta Army Aviation Base is located way on one side of the Cantt area and its a huge empty space where Mi-17s and this beast would be mostly parked.

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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> what you mean theek and kharab sir ? we have no use of such system without support parts and they were war trophies not for us .



support parts can easily be available through Ukraine or any other ex-Russian state
last week general kayani shows interest for mi-24 to is russian counterpart

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## fahad196

its amazing helicopter


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> support parts can easily be available through Ukraine or any other ex-Russian state
> last week general kayani shows interest for mi-24 to is russian counterpart



 there was any EX russian state in 1986 ?


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## hkdas

Imran Khan said:


> there was any EX russian state in 1986 ?



he means soviet union


----------



## Imran Khan

hkdas said:


> he means soviet union



so when was soviet union braked up ?


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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> if you see pics posted the fennec's have taken over the role from alouette's in the northern areas



Ecrueils did, sir, not Fennecs. They fly day in and day out at Siachen now.


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## hkdas

Imran Khan said:


> so when was soviet union braked up ?



in 1991. befour 1991 pakistan's allies in middle east had soviet weapons and they may provided the spare parts for mill


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## Imran Khan

hkdas said:


> in 1991. befour 1991 pakistan's allies in middle east had soviet weapons and they gad provided the spare parts for mill



its make any sense ? at that time we have order of 69 F-16s cobras were coming USA was our first uncle . and 6 choppers are nothing even today for us if pak need they can go and buy from them 20 or 120 no one is going to stop them .


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## hkdas

Imran Khan said:


> its make any sense ? at that time we have order of 69 F-16s cobras were coming USA was our first uncle . and 6 choppers are nothing even today for us if pak need they can go and buy from them 20 or 120 no one is going to stop them .



pakistan get it only if it is available to pakistan. cobras are no match for mil 24. comparing two is similar to comparing black hawk and chinook


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## Imran Khan

hkdas said:


> pakistan get it only if it is available to pakistan. cobras are no match for mil 24. comparing two is similar to comparing black hawk and chinook



they are and they were available for pakistan but pakistan is not interested in them . both have different role but kids here just want to induct in service even if its logical or not . forces need it or not . russia offers many time high tech weapons to Pakistan but pakistan always stay away and we know it why . still pakistani force have lot of Russian weapons in service .


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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> they are and they were available for pakistan but pakistan is not interested in them . both have different role but kids here just want to induct in service even if its logical or not . forces need it or not . russia offers many time high tech weapons to Pakistan but pakistan always stay away and we know it why . still pakistani force have lot of Russian weapons in service .


uncle tell which high tech weapons they offer
mig-29/su-27 in 1994


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> uncle tell which high tech weapons they offer
> mig-29/su-27 in 1994



http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...sia-experts-suggest-sell-mig-35-pakistan.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...helicopters-enhance-better-understanding.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...n-russia-agree-boost-defence-cooperation.html

and mi-28 with pak officers pic was all over net 2-3 years before


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## hkdas

Imran Khan said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...sia-experts-suggest-sell-mig-35-pakistan.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...helicopters-enhance-better-understanding.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...n-russia-agree-boost-defence-cooperation.html
> 
> and mi-28 with pak officers pic was all over net 2-3 years before



We will not sell arms to Pakistan, says Russia - The Hindu


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## Imran Khan

hkdas said:


> We will not sell arms to Pakistan, says Russia - The Hindu



the hindu ? show you list of russian arms in pak army sir ? 107 pakistani mi-17 helicopters slap this claim alone


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## hkdas

Imran Khan said:


> the hindu ? show you list of russian arms in pak army sir ? 107 pakistani mi-17 helicopters slap this claim alone



107 mil is provided by US and its allies as an aid to pakistan not by russia


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## Imran Khan

hkdas said:


> 107 mil is provided by US and its allies as an aid to pakistan not by russia



you need to learn sir before wrrite such line


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## hkdas

Imran Khan said:


> you need to learn sir before wrrite such line



some of mil 8, 17s given by US in early 90s and 4mil 17v5 and some v3 models are recently provided/ leased to pakistan.

U.S. military criticized for purchase of Russian copters for Afghan air corps
US embassy cables: Pakistan army chief 'desperate' for US military support | World news | theguardian.com


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## Imran Khan

hkdas said:


> some of mil 8, 17s given by US in early 90s and 4mil 17v5 and some v3 models are recently provided/ leased to pakistan.
> 
> U.S. military criticized for purchase of Russian copters for Afghan air corps
> US embassy cables: Pakistan army chief 'desperate' for US military support | World news | theguardian.com



still wrong try it more


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## hkdas

Imran Khan said:


> still wrong try it more



there is no news reports link on internet about us aid to pakistan before 2000(may be withdrawn). i had read about mil 8 and 17 in pakistan military in lot of article(in both foreign and indian).

can you provide any proof on russia providing mil to pakistan?

russian small arms are easily available in black market. availability of soviet weapons in black market was at its peak in early 90s .


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## Imran Khan

hkdas said:


> there is no news reports link on internet about us aid to pakistan before 2000(may be withdrawn). i had read about mil 8 and 17 in pakistan military in lot of article(in both foreign and indian).
> 
> can you provide any proof on russia providing mil to pakistan?
> 
> russian small arms are easily available in black market. availability of soviet weapons in black market was at its peak in early 90s .



yes i can prove you russia provide MIl - draganovs ak-103 ak-107 RD-93 - RPG-29 BTR-70 and much more . i have to go to work now will provide you evening dear . and sure i will remove your dough abut pakistan can't buy as indian media show to its public same as we are rough state no one wanna sale us any weapon.

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## hkdas

Imran Khan said:


> yes i can prove you russia provide MIl - draganovs ak-103 ak-107 RD-93 - RPG-29 BTR-70 and much more . i have to go to work now will provide you evening dear . and sure i will remove your dough abut pakistan can't buy as indian media show to its public same as we are rough state no one wanna sale us any weapon.



 ak-103 ak-107 RD-93 - RPG-29 BTR-70 all available in black market. as i told you soviet union/russian small arms weapons are easily available in black market. during soviets in afghan mujahideen fights russians with ak47, pk, and other soviet weapons captured and given by CIA from blackmarket. ak 103 is produced in former soviet countries.

pakistan uses AK 103, in limited numbers and it was added recently. pakistan uses large quantity of soviet weapons(captured and given by china). draganovs used by PA is chinese copy.

you know in northeast region indian paramilitary forces such as assam rifle use chinese made Ak -47, 74 and some grenades, it doesn't mean that india brought that from china, all are captured from nagas.


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## Imran Khan

hkdas said:


> ak-103 ak-107 RD-93 - RPG-29 BTR-70 all available in black market. as i told you soviet union/russian small arms weapons are easily available in black market. during soviets in afghan mujahideen fights russians with ak47, pk, and other soviet weapons captured and given by CIA from blackmarket. ak 103 is produced in former soviet countries.
> 
> pakistan uses AK 103, in limited numbers and it was added recently. pakistan uses large quantity of soviet weapons(captured and given by china). draganovs used by PA is chinese copy.
> 
> you know in northeast region indian paramilitary forces such as assam rifle use chinese made Ak -47, 74 and some grenades, it doesn't mean that india brought that from china, all are captured from nagas.



first of all why black market ? are we terror group ? we are buysing whatever we need from whoel world dear . let me remember you we are using all type of weapons from USA FRANCE SWEDEN RUSSIA BRAZIL GERMANY CHINA JAPAN SPAIN - INDONESIA ITALY UKRAINE UNITED KINGDOM TURKEY NETHERLAND AUSTRIA BELGIUM SOUTH AFRICA do you think a world number 7 army buy arms from black market ? its really show you know nothing abut pakistan sir sorry to say but you think pakistani defense ministry and forces are mafia ?.or we are illegal state on earth ?

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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...sia-experts-suggest-sell-mig-35-pakistan.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...helicopters-enhance-better-understanding.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...n-russia-agree-boost-defence-cooperation.html
> 
> and mi-28 with pak officers pic was all over net 2-3 years before


all Pakistani mil mi-8/17 are unarmed configuration
there is much different b/w suggestion and offer
mig-35 did not fulfill paf requirements
chances of mil-28 are rare because indian pressure


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## Stealth



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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> first of all why black market ? are we terror group ? we are buysing whatever we need from whoel world dear . let me remember you we are using all type of weapons from USA FRANCE SWEDEN RUSSIA BRAZIL GERMANY CHINA JAPAN SPAIN - INDONESIA ITALY UKRAINE UNITED KINGDOM TURKEY NETHERLAND AUSTRIA BELGIUM SOUTH AFRICA do you think a world number 7 army buy arms from black market ? its really show you know nothing abut pakistan sir sorry to say but you think pakistani defense ministry and forces are mafia ?.or we are illegal state on earth ?



sir u miss Czechoslovakia


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## pac-cac

Any one have a jf-17 thunder SOUND BARIER pic


----------



## Dazzler

hkdas said:


> 107 mil is provided by US and its allies as an aid to pakistan not by russia



its better to read a little before opening mouth, Mils were bought directly from Russia

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## pac-cac

can any one tell me pic upload proces

i am uploading pic the error are show.....An error has occurred pac-cac! You must have 30 posts in order to post links. Your current post count is 2.


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## hkdas

Imran Khan said:


> first of all why black market ? are we terror group ? we are buysing whatever we need from whoel world dear . let me remember you we are using all type of weapons from USA FRANCE SWEDEN RUSSIA BRAZIL GERMANY CHINA JAPAN SPAIN - INDONESIA ITALY UKRAINE UNITED KINGDOM TURKEY NETHERLAND AUSTRIA BELGIUM SOUTH AFRICA do you think a world number 7 army buy arms from black market ? its really show you know nothing abut pakistan sir sorry to say but you think pakistani defense ministry and forces are mafia ?.or we are illegal state on earth ?



russia won't give any military weapons to pakistan because:

* india the largest buyer of russian weapons won't allow to provide russian weapons export to pakistan.
*russia don't want to loose indian market 
* india and russia had a good military relations, weapon supply to pakistan will affect that relation. the russia give china the NOC to export the russian engine to pakistan had changed india's stand on russia.
* pakistan is considered to be a pro-american country and during afghan war(in 90s) pakistan was with us and against russia.


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## Imran Khan

hkdas said:


> russia won't give any military weapons to pakistan because:
> 
> * india the largest buyer of russian weapons won't allow to provide russian weapons export to pakistan.
> *russia don't want to loose indian market
> * india and russia had a good military relations, weapon supply to pakistan will affect that relation. the russia give china the NOC to export the russian engine to pakistan had changed india's stand on russia.
> * pakistan is considered to be a pro-american country and during afghan war(in 90s) pakistan was with us and against russia.



this story was discussed till death and there is no mummy daddy in this world pay money and got what you need . Russia is not your slave . this myth is dead since your gov is getting every thing from USA -WEST now do you think Russia will let a customer wanna buy 720 BTR-70s? or 80 -90 MI-17s ? lolz man you are living in 80s?????????? its new world man . russia is third country on earth which has strategic dialogue with us and our army air force chiefs visited russia recently and russian forces chiefs visit pakistan recently . come out from cold war era now please . just check how much cost a mi-17 or BTR-80

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## Inception-06

Imran Khan said:


> this story was discussed till death and there is no mummy daddy in this world pay money and got what you need . Russia is not your slave . this myth is dead since your gov is getting every thing from USA -WEST now do you think Russia will let a customer wanna buy 720 BTR-70s? or 80 -90 MI-17s ? lolz man you are living in 80s?????????? its new world man . russia is third country on earth which has strategic dialogue with us and our army air force chiefs visited russia recently and russian forces chiefs visit pakistan recently . come out from cold war era now please . just check how much cost a mi-17 or BTR-80



Brother you are right that we did Buy unarmed Mi-17 but we have never buy 720 BTR, may be we did captured some from Afghanistan.


----------



## pac-cac

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra handed over first batch of Turkish UAV (ANKA) parts to Turkish Aerospace Industry (TAI) in an impressive ceremony held during International Defence Exhibition & Fair (IDEF) at Istanbul, Turkey.
After the signing ceremony, Mr Muharrem Dortkasli, President and CEO of TAI expressed his satisfaction on the skill and knowledge possessed by PAC, Kamra for undertaking such assignments. He further expressed that many more collaborations would be undertaken in the future as well.
While talking to media, Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan, Chairman PAC, Kamra paid his gratitude to TAI for paving PACs way to enter into a new domain of commercialization. He further said that it was the first step towards building up close cooperation in the field of aviation which will open the doors of further collaboration between the aviation industries of Turkey and Pakistan.
The ceremony was attended by Lt General (Retd) Shahid Iqbal, Secretary Defence Production Division and high ranking officials from Turkey.
PAC Kamra has been exploring the different venues in aviation industry and affiliated production facilities and stands shoulder to shoulder with other advanced aviation industries of the World.

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## pac-cac

pac-cac said:


> Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra handed over first batch of Turkish UAV (ANKA) parts to Turkish Aerospace Industry (TAI) in an impressive ceremony held during International Defence Exhibition & Fair (IDEF) at Istanbul, Turkey.
> After the signing ceremony, Mr Muharrem Dortkasli, President and CEO of TAI expressed his satisfaction on the skill and knowledge possessed by PAC, Kamra for undertaking such assignments. He further expressed that many more collaborations would be undertaken in the future as well.
> While talking to media, Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan, Chairman PAC, Kamra paid his gratitude to TAI for paving PACs way to enter into a new domain of commercialization. He further said that it was the first step towards building up close cooperation in the field of aviation which will open the doors of further collaboration between the aviation industries of Turkey and Pakistan.
> The ceremony was attended by Lt General (Retd) Shahid Iqbal, Secretary Defence Production Division and high ranking officials from Turkey.
> PAC Kamra has been exploring the different venues in aviation industry and affiliated production facilities and stands shoulder to shoulder with other advanced aviation industries of the World.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wikipedia
Specifications (Anka-A)

General characteristics
Crew: none
Length: 26.2 ft[29] (8 m)
Wingspan: 56.7 ft (17.3 m)
Height: 11.1 ft[29] (3,4 m)
Wing area: 146.3 sq ft (13.6 m²)
Max. takeoff weight: 3527 lb (1600 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Thielert Centurion 2.0 turbocharged four-cylinder engine, 155 hp[29] (114 kW)
Performance
Maximum speed: 135 mph (117 knots, 217 km/h)
Cruise speed: 126 mph[29] (110 knots, 204 km/h)
Range: 3024 mi (4896 km)
Combat radius: 124 mi[30] (200 km)
Endurance: 24 hours with 200 kg useful payload[31]
Service ceiling: 26,000 ft (7,900 m)
Avionics
ASELFLIR-300T, SAR/GMTI, ISAR payload
INS/GPS and air data sensor suite system[5]
-----------------------------------------
Armament- Air to Ground and Air to Air missile integration


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## nomi007



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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


>



"We live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. You want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

edited from A Few Good Men

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## Jango

https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=688392834522048

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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=688392834522048



Superb video man! thanks a lot for sharing

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## Jango



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## Bratva



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## fatman17

wait for the news:

between 6 to 10 Mi-17V5 med-lift helos may be delivered to PAA shortly from the USA.

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## Black Eagle 90

fatman17 said:


> wait for the news:
> 
> between 6 to 10 Mi-17V5 med-lift helos may be delivered to PAA shortly from the USA.



PAC should try to do JV with china on 5 types of transport helicopters that will be used by our Armed Forces as well as for civilian used and also an Attack one like Apache too.


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## Imran Khan



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## DESERT FIGHTER

hkdas said:


> ak-103 ak-107 RD-93 - RPG-29 BTR-70 all available in black market. as i told you soviet union/russian small arms weapons are easily available in black market. during soviets in afghan mujahideen fights russians with ak47, pk, and other soviet weapons captured and given by CIA from blackmarket. ak 103 is produced in former soviet countries.



Countries dont equip their forces with weapons bought from black market.. and than use them on UN missions or in conflict ridden foriegn countries..



> pakistan uses AK 103, in limited numbers and it was added recently. pakistan uses large quantity of soviet weapons(captured and given by china). draganovs used by PA is chinese copy.




Lol china gave Pak captured soviet weapons? since when did China fight USSR? 

As for AK 103s etc ... in use since years (years old pic below):






PA uses draganov it in limited numbers... Rangers,FC etc use it as a marksmen rifle not even a dedicated sniper role......we use american,european etc systems.



> you know in northeast region indian paramilitary forces such as assam rifle use chinese made Ak -47, 74 and some grenades, it doesn't mean that india brought that from china, all are captured from nagas.



You probably dnt even know russia offered mig-29s n su-27s to Pakistan in the 90s? just like you didnt know the Mi series,BTRs etc were sold by russians to Pakistan!




Ulla said:


> Brother you are right that we did Buy unarmed Mi-17 but we have never buy 720 BTR, may be we did captured some from Afghanistan.



We have almost 300+++ Btrs (also used by Rangers)... and no they werent "Captured"..

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


>



what does the sign say on the extreme right of the pic?


----------



## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> what does the sign say on the extreme right of the pic?



shaheen cargo sir

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## Inception-06

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We have almost 300+++ Btrs (also used by Rangers)... and no they werent "Captured"..




A selam Brother

I am sorry but that cant be true, if 300 BTR-APC are operational, why we did never see them in service with the Pakistan Army ?

Only some were seen in UNO and FC. 

If we would have 300 than we should upgrade them in Ukraine with better protection/weapons and use them in war against TTP, but thats not the case, we are still using TOYOTAS in Swat and FATA. 

That 300 BTR-APC are in operationalservice with Pakistan Army in Pakistan cant be true ! @ fatman what do you think ?


----------



## krash

nuclearpak said:


> https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=688392834522048



That is one heck of a share.

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## Jango

krash said:


> That is one heck of a share.



That video was made on special request of the CO of a sqn.

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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> A selam Brother
> 
> I am sorry but that cant be true, if 300 BTR-APC are operational, why we did never see them in service with the Pakistan Army ?
> 
> Only some were seen in UNOby FC.
> 
> If we would have 300 than we should upgrade them in Ukraine with better protection/weapons and use them in war against TTP, but thats not the case, we are still using TOYOTAS in Swat and FATA.
> 
> That 300 BTR-APC are in operationalservice with Pakistan Army in Pakistan cant be true ! @ fatman what do you think ?



the BTR's are mostly operated by the FC and we dont have 300 of them.

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## razgriz19

how much does a Hydra 70 rocket costs?
I know they come with different warheads and fusses, but whats the average cost?


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## airomerix

We must be having more than 300 BTRs. No?


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## razgriz19

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa154/ErwinJA/RP/zzhj9.jpg

can anyone post a picture of PA cobras with baktar-shikan like this one?
I have seen videos but never saw the actual missile mounted on cobra.


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## Bratva



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## Last Hope

One of the Jordanian units.

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## fatman17

October issue of AFM has a article on the PAA.


*Qasim  In the Thick of the Action*
Alan Warnes visited the Pakistan Army base at Qasim, in Rawalpindi, which is playing a major part in the countrys war against terrorism


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## Jango



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## fatman17

*Z-8A/B/K/KA/KH Super Frelon*


As an army transport version, Z-8A was developed by CHAIC and 602 Institute and was certified in February 1999. Two Z-8As were delivered to the Army for evaluation in 2001 but suffered from poor quality and performance due to the insufficient WZ-6A engine. Only a small batch of 9 Z-8A (S/N LH978xx) were delivered to the Army since November 2002. Consequently Army decided to order more Mi-17V5s from Russia instead of additional Z-8As. Finally in 2007 PLAAF started to acquire dozens of much improved Z-8K (S/N 30x7x) SAR helicopters and Z-8KA (S/N 616x, 626x) transport helicopters for downed pilots or paratroopers. These specialized variants are equipped with a FLIR turret and a search light underneath the cabin plus a hoist and a flare dispenser attached to the fuselage. At least one Z-8KA was fitted with a terrain following radar (?) under the nose. The engines is thought to be the upgraded WZ-6G turboshaft. A dust filter is installed in front the of engine intakes. Z-8K/KA also features a glass cockpit. Another variant dubbed Z-8KH was developed for the PLAAF unit stationed in Hong Kong, which has chaff/flare launchers installed in the floats. The first batch of 4 will be delivered in early 2010 (S/N 630x). Recent photos (February 2011) indicated that PLA Army ordered a new batch of the improved Z-8Bs (S/N LH958xx, 968xx, 988xx, 998xx) similar to Z-8KH but with the floats removed to reduce weight. A new glass cockpit similar to AC313 has been installed. It was rumored that Z-8B is powered by Canadian P&W PT-6B-67A turboshaft but this has not been confirmed. 

- Last Updated 9/22/13

possible candidate for PAA medium-lift requirements.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Manticore said:


>



Any update about this choppers ? Its been long we haven't seen any other picture of this or any other account like this !

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## S.U.R.B.

Pardon me if that's already posted in this thread.

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## nomi007

Mi-17 during resue efforts in avaran- Baluchistan




why Pakistan is not interested in ch-47/46

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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> Mi-17 during resue efforts in avaran- Baluchistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why Pakistan is not interested in ch-47/46



too expensive, and too American.

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## Bratva



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## Imran Khan

what happen to front avionics glass cover ?


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## Imran Khan

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Any update about this choppers ? Its been long we haven't seen any other picture of this or any other account like this !



MI-14 were for fire fighting unit don't know were they went may be no fire that is why parked


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> what happen to front avionics glass cover ?



they are on order!!!


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## A.Rafay

Imran Khan said:


> what happen to front avionics glass cover ?



They look like they are in a very bad shape! it looks like an empty structure just capable of flying. 
We have to speed up the deal with Turkey.


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## nomi007




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## dexter

Aerial view of Reconnaissance and Combat Helicopters at forward base on western front

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## dexter

Keeping our borders secure, Reconnaissance and combat missions go hand in hand

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## Inception-06

dexter said:


> Aerial view of Reconnaissance and Combat Helicopters at forward base on western front



no sandbacks, no machine gun bunkers, no hangars......to Helis are parked without any protection.

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## dexter

Ulla said:


> no sandbacks, no machine gun bunkers, no hangars......to Helis are parked without any protection.



May be they are there for a limited time


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## Inception-06

dexter said:


> May be they are there for a limited time



Its called a "forward base" .

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

Ulla said:


> no sandbacks, no machine gun bunkers, no hangars......to Helis are parked without any protection.


hangers ki kia zarorzt hai
inno ne saab-2000 aur p-3c orions k lehe hangers nai banahe yeh to ab hain he junks 
uh-1huey aur cobra ki life to expire he hai

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## nomi007



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## Bratva

*Ex-Jordanian Cobras enter service in Pakistan*

11 October 2013 - 14:06 by Alan Warnes in Pakistan







The Pakistan Army Aviation (PAA) has recently inducted eight former Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) AH-1S Cobra attack helicopters into service.

The gunships arrival has been eagerly anticipated for the past few years, as they will allow the overworked Cobras fighting insurgents in the Federally Administered Tribal Area (FATA) to ...

Subscribe to get the full article and a whole lot more from Shephard Plus

EX-JORDANIAN COBRAS ENTER SERVICE IN PAKISTAN | Article - Fri 11 Oct 2013 01:17:20 PM UTC | airsoc.com, reach for the sky.

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## Viking 63

The whole of army aviation corp looks like in bad shape !!! They really need to find funds to buy more M1-7 and Super.cobras !!


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## Armstrong

@mafiya @Dazzler @Oscar @Last Hope : How wise is it to acquire Cobras that the Jordanians have retired ?
@mafiya @Dazzler @Oscar @Last Hope : How wise is it to acquire Cobras that the Jordanians have retired ?

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## Tacticool

Will these cobras have any upgrade package which bring them to a standard configuration?


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## Bratva

Armstrong said:


> @mafiya @Dazzler @Oscar @Last Hope : How wise is it to acquire Cobras that the Jordanians have retired ?
> @mafiya @Dazzler @Oscar @Last Hope : How wise is it to acquire Cobras that the Jordanians have retired ?



With empty coffers and Ex-COBRAS coming almost at free price. It's a very wise decision. Even it's upgradtion is done through FMS

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## Safriz

Armstrong said:


> @mafiya @Dazzler @Oscar @Last Hope : How wise is it to acquire Cobras that the Jordanians have retired ?
> @mafiya @Dazzler @Oscar @Last Hope : How wise is it to acquire Cobras that the Jordanians have retired ?



Cobra has no Air to air capability..Because it has no Radar.
Other than that it can do everything an attack helicopter should do,and that's the main thing.
Then you forgot the price.Initial batches of Cobra were bought at 7 Million USD and less a piece,later some even came free.
Compare that to T-129 or even Z-10's Price and capabilities and you will see the wisdom


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## Neptune

Which AH-1 Cobra variants do Pakistan and Jordan posse?


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## Safriz

Neptune said:


> Which AH-1 Cobra variants do Pakistan and Jordan posse?



F and S


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## Neptune

Dreamreaper said:


> F and S



then there's no need for Jordan. I think even the four blade variant of AH-1W is about to be a "granny".

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## Safriz

Neptune said:


> then there's no need for Jordan. I think even the four blade variant of AH-1W is about to be a "granny".



The jordanian batch of S variant was inducted in 2011.

W has more power and manoeverability due to twun engines and 4 rotor blades,and are promised for 2015.
Its an open secret that Turkish Cobras used against Kurds were phased out and spare Parts ''given'' to Pakistan,and that helped a lot in our WOT.
(But i still dont like Turks  )

Edit.
Z are 4 blade not W.
Z are promised to Pak in 2015


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## Neptune

Dreamreaper said:


> The jordanian batch of S variant was inducted in 2011.
> 
> W has more power and manoeverability due to twun engines and 4 rotor blades,and are promised for 2015.
> Its an open secret that Turkish Cobras used against Kurds were phased out and spare Parts ''given'' to Pakistan,and that helped a lot in our WOT.
> (But i still dont like Turks  )



Both W and W(4B) are good, but not fill the needs "exactly". Currently I think the only accurate variant is the Zulu Cobra known as KingCobra which's mostly inducted USMC.


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## Safriz

Neptune said:


> Both W and W(4B) are good, but not fill the needs "exactly". Currently I think the only accurate variant is the Zulu Cobra known as KingCobra which's mostly inducted USMC.


.

W two blade.
Z 4 blade.

So yes Z is desirable.


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## Neptune

Dreamreaper said:


> .
> 
> W two blade.
> Z 4 blade.
> 
> So yes Z is desirable.



No they're different. There are two whiskey variants. One being two blade, other being 4. The Zulu variant is different than Ws. People. The four-bladed-whiskey variant can be classified as the convert between Z and W. Google is your friend.


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## Safriz

Neptune said:


> No they're different. There are two whiskey variants. One being two blade, other being 4. The Zulu variant is different than Ws. People. The four-bladed-whiskey variant can be classified as the convert between Z and W. Google is your friend.



Hmmm.
May be.. .......

and since when you immigrated to Israel?


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## nomi007

guess the plane


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## The Deterrent

nomi007 said:


> guess the plane



Eurocopter Fennec.

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## Neptune

Dreamreaper said:


> Hmmm.
> May be.. .......
> 
> and since when you immigrated to Israel?



nah...It's for a troll who picked the greece flag


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## Tacticool

What are capabilities of fennec?
In what kind of missions it can be used?


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## Jango

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> What are capabilities of fennec?
> In what kind of missions it can be used?



Mainly to be used in the scout role, replacing the Jet Ranger.

Also equipped with some fighting capability.

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## fatman17

mafiya said:


> With empty coffers and Ex-COBRAS coming almost at free price. It's a very wise decision. Even it's *upgradtion is done through FMS*



one has to pay for upgrades with own funds.


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## Tacticool

nuclearpak said:


> Mainly to be used in the scout role, replacing the Jet Ranger.
> 
> Also equipped with some fighting capability.



heard that they'll be armed. becoming light attack role capable?
Are jet rangers going to be retired?


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## Tacticool

How are fennecs compared with dhruv in role?

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## Imran Khan



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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


>



imran bhai this was a sight-seeing tour....

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> imran bhai this was a sight-seeing tour....



yes sir it was just air show visit in 2007

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## Nishan_101

Imran Khan said:


>



I am sure Army, Navy as well as Air Force will to have their own helicopters which would be produced through a JV of PAC and Chinese companies.


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## Gryphon

@warnesyworld

Alan Warnes is a freelancer and consultant who also writes for _AirForces Monthly_.


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> @warnesyworld
> 
> Alan Warnes is a freelancer and consultant who also writes for _AirForces Monthly_.



so brother what happened to the atak 129 deal for PakisTan ??


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## Imran Khan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> @warnesyworld
> 
> Alan Warnes is a freelancer and consultant who also writes for _AirForces Monthly_.



in punjabi ???? waar gaay


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## S.Y.A

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> @warnesyworld
> 
> Alan Warnes is a freelancer and consultant who also writes for _AirForces Monthly_.



not again!!! yaar kia mazaq hai!


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## Bratva

^ Many things going on behind the scenes. Alan warnes referring to AH-1Z cobra deal that American is going to offer to Pakistan to counter turkey deal as per rumours.

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## fatman17

mafiya said:


> ^ Many things going on behind the scenes. Alan warnes referring to AH-1Z cobra deal that American is going to offer to Pakistan to counter turkey deal as per rumours.



12-20 AH-1Z super-cobras are on offer via FMS/own funds.


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## Gryphon

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;4881023 said:


> so brother what happened to the atak 129 deal for PakisTan ??



I don't think the T-129 ATAK deal will be cancelled or stalled. Talks are in final stages. According to _Defense News_, Turkey has offered to gift three T-129 helicopters to Pakistan. And Pakistan may be getting some more Cobras to replace some "beyond service life" AH-1S helis supplied by US in the 1980's..



mafiya said:


> ^ Many things going on behind the scenes. Alan warnes referring to AH-1Z *cobra* deal that American is going to offer to Pakistan to counter turkey deal as per rumours.





O janab, AH-1Z Viper comes in SuperCobra category. Forget AH-1Z ..


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## nomi007

Pakistani Puma Helicopter Participate in UN Peacekeeping Mission in Congo

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## nomi007

some where in russia

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

*gunship helicopter crashes in Gujranwala*




time is running short replace them


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> *gunship helicopter crashes in Gujranwala*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time is running short replace them


 
these things can happen to any system, old or new...!

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## Zarvan

nomi007 said:


> *gunship helicopter crashes in Gujranwala*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time is running short replace them


Don't worry soon Attack helicopters from Turkey are on the way with TOT we should hope the pilots are safe machines can be replaced if economy is good or gets better


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## DESERT FIGHTER

nomi007 said:


> *gunship helicopter crashes in Gujranwala*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time is running short replace them



Im in Rahwali cantt ... thought a mushak etc had crashed.. but a friggin cobra!


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## MJaa

AH-1F Cobra Gunship Helicopter Crash Site Images
http://goo.gl/CpQ9gz


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## fatman17

*Pakistan Army Aviation Martyrs’ Monument*
Posted on: June 12th, 2013



The impressive Martyrs' Monument at Qasim is a tribute to all aviators who have died in service, whatever the circumstances. A civilian contractor can be seen polishing up the plaques for Martyrs’ Day, which was April 30, just a few days after this photo was taken. All photos, AFD-Alan Warnes
*Alan Warnes recently visited a monument at Qasim Army Air Base, Rawalpindi which remembers all the Aviation aviators that have lost their lives. *
A NEW monument has been built at Qasim, the Pakistan Army Aviation’s (PAA) main hub, which remembers the Shaheeds (Martyrs) who have lost their lives flying with the PAA.
Some 65 crashes have claimed lives since 1953, the bulk of them comprise L-19 Bird Dogs (16) and MFI-17 Mushshaks (21). There have been various reasons, but they are attributed mainly to bad weather or unauthorised manoeuvres. Fortunately the PAA has managed to cut out the latter in recent years.
The PAA has always been on the forefront in rendering sacrifices whether it has been the India – Pakistan wars, recce and rescue operations in northern areas of Pakistan, disaster relief operations (floods, earthquakes etc), UN peace keeping missions or operation Al-Mizan – the ongoing war effort in the west against miscreants.
Considering the number of sorties flown in Operation Al-Mizan, that has seen many RPGs incidents and helicopters riddled with bullets, there has been a surprisingly low fatality rate.
Having said that, the biggest loss of life occurred on July 3, 2009, when Mi-17 58635 crashed during one of those sorties, claiming 42 lives. The biggest loss of PAA personnel on any aircraft took place on July 31, 1988, after a Puma flying from Gilgit to Skardu in the Himalayas crashed. 
Every year, on Martyrs Day, now held on April 30, a ceremony is held to remember them. It is arguably, one of the finest memorials dedicated to lost aviators. 



A close up of the right side of the Martyrs' Monument.
*May 2, 1953 Auster Aiglet W-4105*
Captain Vajid Ali Khan was on a recce mission when his aircraft crashed 4 miles (6.5km) from Chaklala.
*June 11, 1953 Auster Aiglet serial unknown*
Captain AMS Ahmed was on a local flying mission when his aircraft collided with another mid-air, three miles east of Chaklala. 
*December 1, 1960 L-19 Bird Dog 5993*
Captain Syed Aziz Ul Hassan was sent to Munda Qala to arrange the recovery of a damaged aircraft. He departed Dargai, with Major Maqbool, the Officer Commanding 199 Workshop, when the Bird Dog hit a mountain top not far from their destination. The fuel tank ruptured, caught fire and the aircraft crashed.
*December 10, 1961 L-19 Bird Dog 1631*
Captain Ikram Ullah Khan was flying the Bird Dog over Pindi Bhattian, when he started a descent to the airfield there. After a low pass at 15ft (4m) and a turn down wind the port wing struck the ground, which caused the aircraft to crash and catch fire.
*February 28, 1963 L-19 Bird Dog 5997*
Having been posted to Flight Instructors School (FIS), Captain Muhammad Riaz Malik practiced flying from the rear seat, while Captain Raja Sarfraz was in the front. While flying low level near Dhudial the aircraft crashed and caught fire. Despite being extinguished by local villagers, neither of the pilots survived.
*December 6, 1965 L-19 Bird Dog 1704*
Captain Mirza Sultan Baig was flying his Bird Dog with passenger Captain Abdul Qayyum on a training sortie when they crashed at Bhagtanwala (Sargodha).
*December 2, 1968 L-19 Bird Dog 1968*
During practised force landings, student pilot Captain Raza Ahmed Khawaja of the Army Aviation School allowed his aircraft to descend below the authorised altitude for a go-around. He tried to pull up but the aircraft stalled and crashed in Khurrar village, five miles (8km) south of Chakri. 
*June 27, 1970 L-19 Bird Dog 6005*
Major Tahir Mahmood Jilani along with passenger Major Noor Muhammad (Engineers) were on board their Bird Dog, looking for the body of Captain Akbar who had drowned earlier in Kabul River near Nowshera. They were flying in marginal visibility conditions, when they disappeared, the aircraft never returned to base. It is unclear if their bodies were recovered.
*December 7, 1971 L-19 Bird Dog unknown*
Major Fayyaz Ibrahim crashed in the Rajistan sector while evading an Indian Air Force fighter after returning from a reconnaissance mission. The pilot was posthumously awarded Sitara-i-Jurat.
*December 7, 1971 L-19 Bird Dog unknown*
Captain Aftab Ahmed Khan and Hav Muhammad Abdul Sharif were on a flying mission when this aircraft was chased by Indian fighters and hit. The aircraft crashed and caught fire.
*January 4, 1972 L-19 Bird Dog 003*
A Bengali officer from the 24 Signals Battalion, 2Lt Humayun Raza hijacked the Bird Dog, flown by Major Muhammad Qasim, just after take off from Mianwali strip near Pasroor. He shot the pilot twice in the head with a .38mm revolver and headed to India. An enquiry into the incident revealed he was a qualified Cessna 150 pilot from Dacca (now Bangladesh) with 230 hours. He was to face the General Officer Commanding (GOC) 6 Armoured Division on January 5, 1972, charged with causing death to a civilian by a military jeep in December 1970. Qasim Army Aviation Base Dhamial is now named in the memory of Major Qasim. The aircraft crashed while the Bengali officer was trying to land the aircraft in Indian territory.
*February 8, 1972 L-19 Bird Dog 986*
Major Anwar Mohi-Ud-Din was attempting to land his aircraft at the Qila Subha Sing airstrip, but lost too much altitude on his final turn towards the runway. He attempted to rectify the problem with a sharp turn very low over trees, but it stalled and hit the ground in the middle of the runway. 
*April 14, 1972 L-19 Bird Dog 100*
The aircraft lost height overhead Mandi Sadiq Ganj after passenger, Major Fateh Khan (24 Baloch) pressed his leg on the rear control column while waving to troops below. On the release of the pressure, the aircraft pulled up sharply as the pilot had been exerting a backward pressure on the stick. The stall took place at 300-350ft (90-100m) and recovery could not be made.
*October 23, 1974 Alouette III 1950*
Major Tauhid ul Haq along with Lt Ali Said Yabooni (from the UAE Army) crashed about 10 miles (16km) from Dhamial (now Qasim) during a routine training mission in clear visibility. 
*July 4, 1975 L-19 5995*
Shortly after take off from Quetta-Khalid airfield, Captain Sajid Nazeer encountered an engine fire with his Bird Dog. The aircraft stalled and crashed while attempting to get back to base.
*April 16, 1976 Alouette III 5189*
Major Muhammad Nasrullah Khan Mahmood and Major Khalid along with three passengers (Brigadier Daud, Brigade Commander 80 Brigade; Colonel Zaka, Col Staff HQ FCNA and Major Shahid OC Signals Coy) departed Astor. However, shortly after take off the helicopter experienced problems and crashed two miles (3km) from the helipad.
*July 13, 1976 Bell 206 1834*
Nk Murad Ali was holding the helicopter’s documents, when some blew away. He rushed after them but was unfortunately hit fatally by the tail rotor. Murad Ali (Hangar No2) is Qasim Army Aviation Base is named in his memory.
*January 24, 1977 Mi-8 0424*
Captain Farooq Dasti along with Captain Shafqat Ullah left Quetta for Qasim via the Sibi-Multan route in their Mi-8. It departed Sibi at 1155 hours, flew for nine minutes and crashed. All occupants were killed including six Aviation personnel.
*March 7, 1978 L-19 Bird Dog 199*
Major Tanvir Ahmed crashed ten miles east of Mangla after an unauthorised manoeuvre over his native village. The aircraft caught fire.
*March 27, 1978 L-19 Bird Dog 5987*
During a flight from Kohlu, Captain Zahid Shah undertook an unauthorised manoeuvre along with his course mate Captain Jamil Ur Rehman when the aircraft crashed. The aircraft went into a spin after the pilot misjudged the aircraft’s height due to restricted visibility and went straight into the ground.
*July 30, 1979 L-19 Bird Dog 5988*
Major Muslim Ghani, with Major Anser Ahmed on board, executed a maximum performance take off with 30˚ flap, nose high attitude and reached 300ft (90m) above ground level when an engine emergency occurred. The aircraft stalled, crashed and caught fire.
*July 11, 1980 L-19 Bird Dog 004*
Major Shah Nawaz took off from Peshawar with Brig Syed Husnain as passenger but encountered low clouds and poor visibility. The pilot made three circles over Qasim Khel village but the aircraft impacted the hills in the Dara Adam Khel range resulting in death of both pilots.
*September 7, 1980 MFI-17 (78-5)064*
Major Zahid Jadoon was on a weather checking mission from Lahore accompanied by OC Ops PADF Base Lahore Wing, Wg Cdr Pervez Khan. The pilot decided to take on unauthorised low level aerobatics over a large gathering of spectators at the airport and hit the PIA Building. The aircraft caught fire and both pilots died.
*October 7, 1982 MFI-17 (78-5)094*
Major Aziz Ahmed along with student pilot Lt Ijaz Ahmed took off from Qasim bound for Tilah. The aircraft suffered an engine failure about eight miles (13km) west of Sohawa and crashed, claiming lives of both.
*December 2, 1983 Mi-8 4518*
During manoeuvres that involved eight Mi-8s the helicopter crashed as it arrived near a drop zone. All crew Major Mahmood Hussain, Captain Shafqat Hussain, Sub Khuda Dad Khan, Hav Muhammad Anwar, Nk Muhammad Saleem perished.
*September 17, 1984 MFI-17 76-520*
After termination of an artillery shoot, Capt Tariq Mahmood Sheikh and Hav Muhammad Husain were heading back on a low level flight to Mangla. En route they hit high tension wires running across River Kahan, near Malot village. After striking the wires and getting entangled the aircraft fell to the ground, bounced into the air and became inverted. 
*August 25, 1986 MFI-17 (81-5)109*
Captain Shahid Mahmood along with Captain Abdul Fazal suffered a power loss over Muzaffargarh city during a close support mission with the Pakistan Air Force. The aircraft crashed, claiming lives of both Captains.

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## fatman17

*April 2, 1987 MFI-17 (78-5)067*
During rehearsals for the air display marking the passing out ceremony of P-28 Course, Major Ahmed Bilal Qureshi lost control during inverted flight. The nose of the MFI-17 started dropping and despite the mobile officer guiding the pilot to push the stick forward the aircraft could not be controlled. It subsequently crashed and caught fire.
*December 14, 1987 Bell 206 1834*
While participating in 1 Corps’ Exercise Thunder Bolt the helicopter crashed in poor visibility. Captain Nadeem Ullah and Hav Fareed had taken off from Kharian and the helicopter was going to be an exhibit at Sambrial for visit of President of Pakistan.
*January 10, 1988 MFI-17 84-5124*
Lt Col Saleem Razza along with Major Arif were carrying out a simulated force landing at Faisal, when the engine failed to respond after he opened power. With the low altitude, low airspeed, banked attitude of the aircraft, poor light conditions and non availability of landing area the situation was pretty serious. The aircraft stalled, then dropped, bounced, crashed and caught fire.
*February 24, 1988 Alouette III 1953*
During a operational mission in Dansum Sector the pilot, Major Ijaz Haider Zaidi, with co-pilot Captain Waqar Hussain Baig, experienced a loss of power after reaching 200-300ft (60-90m). Unfortunately the auto-rotation (landing with no engine) was not successful due to the high altitude and the helicopter crashed. Crew Chief Havildar Riasat Khan survived.
*July 31, 1988 Puma 1406*
Lt Col Sajid Islam and Major Khalid Akhtar Minhas departed Gilgit for Skardu. After 30 minutes No 2 engine failed and the pilot decided to land immediately, close to Basha village, 18 miles (25km) west of Skardu. With a single engine he could not stop the fast rate of descent and the helicopter crashed, caught fire and was completely destroyed. All six on board, the two pilots and Sub Mohammad Rafique, Hav Laiqat Ali, Hav Abdul Haq and Hav Muhammad Yousaf were killed. 
*January 18, 1989 MFI-17 (88-5)156*
Captain Hamid Sarwar of 1 Army Aviation Squadron died in the crash while carrying out an air test. An engine malfunction forced the pilot to turn back when he was at 400ft (122m). The aircraft crashed short of Mangla and was completely destroyed.
*May 7, 1989 MFI-17 88-5173*
Captain Shahid Irshad departed Sialkot air strip for Rahwali with passenger Captain Muhammad Akhter next to him. When 6 miles (9.5kms) north east of Rahwali the pilot descended the aircraft to undertake unauthorised low level flying. The cause of crash is likely to have been a partial power loss/intermittent engine response when one of the plugs in the engine was found dead and a fuel line clogged.
*May 24, 1989 MFI-17 76-518*
Captain Tasawar Hussain Hamayun of 11 Aviation Squadron was killed when he crashed his aircraft during an unauthorised manoeuvre over his native village, Thao Hamayun.
*December 23, 1989 MFI-17 (83-5)112*
Captain Syed Raza Ali and Captain Amir Yasin of 9 Army Aviation Squadron were flying their Mushshak from Rafiqui to Peshawar. A low cloud base over Kohat saw the pilots try to detour around the cloud but crashed into hills.
*March 5, 1990 SA315 Lama 2685*
Capt Abdul Qayyum and Capt Kamal Masood, along with technicians Nk Bahadur Khan and Nk Sultan Ahmed, were all killed when the Lama crashed while departing Qasim. The likely cause of the damage is the failure of the right mounting bolt of tail rotor gear box.
*July 17, 1990 MFI-17 (81-5)111*
Captain Waqar Ahmed along with student pilot Captain Zaighum Abbas Jafri were killed when their Mushshak crashed while practicing an aerobatic display for the graduation ceremony of the P-31 Class, on July 26, 1990. In the process of completing a third consecutive aileron roll at Gujrat airfield the aircraft brushed a tree top and impacted the ground while inverted. After impact the aircraft bounced in the air, turned upright caught fire and came to a complete stop after hitting telegraph wires.
*November 28, 1991 MFI-17 (89-5)182*
Captain Naveed Khan carried out an unauthorised low level manoeuvre over Islamabad. Unfortunately he lost control of the aircraft, which crashed, claiming his life.
*January 9, 1992 MFI-17 (88-5)161*
Major Muhammad Naveed was flying from Lahore to Okara, when eight miles (13kms) from Okara he hit a tree some 35ft (10m) high in poor visibility. After impact it hit high tension wires and he was electrocuted.
*March 21, 1992 Lama 2673*
Major Syed Tahir Ali and Captain Muhammad Nawaz landed their Lama at Arif Post at some 19,300ft (5,880m). The helicopter remained on the pad for 20-30 seconds but then lost grip because of the soft snow under the skids. The main rotors struck the mountains and the helicopter entered into an uncontrolled right spiral descent accompanied by a snow avalanche. Both pilots died of their injuries.
*June 17, 1992 MFI-17 (86-5)157*
Captain Shahid Rehman Tariq flew an unauthorised manoeuvre at critically low speed near Gujrat when he lost control and the aircraft crashed. 
*August 1, 1992 SA 315 Lama 2692*
Major Khalid Sohail Sultan and Major Babar Ramzan, along with Brigadier Masood Naveed, were carrying out reconnaissance of AOR. The helicopter was hit by a missile fired by the Indian Army and crashed in Chulung area. The occupants were awarded Sitara-e-Jurat posthumously on March 23, 1993.
*September 2, 1992 MFI-17 (79-5)071*
Major Rashid Mansoor and Major Safdar Jahanzeb were flying their Mushsak for an artillery shoot. While returning from Tilla Ranges back to Qasim the aircraft crashed at Taraki Hills due to inclement weather.
*April 24, 1993 AB 205 352*
The helicopter hit the ground in the Rahwali training area after wrong techniques were adopted during manoeuvres. The helicopter sustained major damage, with Captain Nasir Hussain Bangash and Captain Raja Shahid both losing their lives.
*September 14, 1994 MFI-17 (79-5)086*
During an unauthorised manoeuvre, Captain Waqar Saeed crashed his aircraft. He had taken the aircraft down to a low altitude, after which he executed three low level steep turns, the last being tighter in radius and steeper in bank than the previous turns. During the last turn, the aircraft flipped over and spun into the ground.
*March 4, 1998 Alouette III 1490*
Lt Colonel Nayyer, along with three maintenance personnel, departed Qasim for Mangla. However the helicopter entered poor visibility and crashed near Sohawa. All four were killed.
*June 10, 1999 Mi-17 58611*
While returning from the Gultari operational area after a fire fighting mission, the Russian helicopter crashed near Satpara Valley. All eleven on board including the five aviators, Major Muhammad Hanif, Captain Muhammad Uzair, Hav Muhammad Shabbir Assi, Hav Bashir Ahmed and Nk Naseer Ahmed lost their lives. It is thought low clouds over the Deosai Plains blocked all exit routes from the valley and left them no chance of finding a diversion airfield. 
*July 1, 1999 MFI-17 (95-5)368*
During the first leg of a training and navigation mission from Rahwali to Multan the aircraft experienced an engine malfunction. Major Ahmed Waseem Bukhari and Captain Kanwar Rashid elected to force land at Qadir Pur Rawan, some 12 miles (20km) northeast of Multan. However the aircraft hit the ground and both died.
*October 31, 1999 MFI-17 (79-5)086*
Captain Shahid Nisar Aulakh and Captain Masood Ullah Baig were carrying out rehearsals in their aircraft in Rahwali for the graduation ceremony of Class P40. On their third practice the MFI-17’s dive angle was shallower, resulting in less speed than required for aileron roll. The nose was pitched higher than needed so the speed dropped and the aircraft went into a spin. Owing to the low altitude, the aircraft could not recover and crashed.
*April 24, 2003 Mi-17 58614*
Major Imtiaz Ahmed and Major Syed Nadeem Ali departed Chillum for Minimerg with eight barrels of oil and nine passengers on board. Across Burzii Pass they encountered bad weather and the helicopter went into a ‘white-out’ conditions. The pilot decided to turn around but unfortunately hit a snow covered ridge. The helicopter crashed and caught fire with loss of all on board including two technicians, Hav Muhammad Nawaz and Muhammad Naseem. 
*June 29, 2004 Mi-17 United Nations*
Njk Muhammad Amir, a qualified airframe technician was killed when a United Nations Mi-17 crashed in Sierre Leone.
*October 15, 2005 Mi-17 ‘58153’ (58513?*)
Lt Col Ahmed Ali Shah and Captain Abdur Rahim had been participating in relief and rescue operations in the earthquake affected areas of Azad Jammu and Kashmir. While offloading supplies at Sher Camp, the crew, which also comprised N/Sub Muhammad Saleem and Hav Jahanzeb, noticed a build up of bad weather and decided to abandon their other drop offs and return to Bagh. Immediately after take off they encountered low clouds, rain and thunder activity with almost zero visibility. While trying to avoid the weather the helicopter hit a mountain ridge approximately 1 mile (1.5km) northwest of Sher Camp. All the crew were killed.
*June 21, 2006 Bell 412 786-210*
During Operation Al Mizan, the pilot diverted from his original route to fly over Baran Dam while flying through a dry nullah and the skids touched the water twice. The third time the helicopter went into a nose down attitude. The cyclic was pulled excessively aft, the main rotor flexed down and cut the tail boom. The helicopter crashed with loss of all three on board – Captain Faisal Khan, Captain Khan Shams Naveed Iqbal and L/Nk Ikram Ullah.
*February 6, 2008 Bell 412 786-201*
During an Operation Al Mizan mission near Dargai (SWA) with GOC 9 Division Major General Javed Sultan, Brigadier Saeed Ahmed, Brigadier Muhammad Afzal Cheema on board, the helicopter crashed. Pilots Lt Col Umer Farooq and Captain Shehzad Aslam were flying the Bell 412 on an recce sortie over the AOR when it crashed a few minutes after take off. 
*August 13, 2008 MFI-17 (95-5)372*
Captain Muhammad Bilal was on a training mission when he encountered bad weather. The pilot tried to avert the situation by flying on instruments but due to heavy mist and fog he got disorientated and the aircraft crashed near Bahawalpur.
*July 3, 2009 Mi-17 58635*
Captain Sohail Abbas and Capt Kurram Shahzad were on a mission moving troops in support of Operation Al Mizan from Parachanar to Peshawar. During the second mission of the day the helicopter was engaged by miscreants and their anti-aircraft guns. The helicopter crashed 15.7 miles (25 km) south west of Peshawar with all 42 occupants killed. It included the two pilots and technicians Hav Hazrat Hussain, Hav Ali Asghar and Hav Asif Rashid.
*October 24, 2009 Mi-17 58639*
Major Hamayan Jehanzeb and Captain Masoudullah Baig were flying on a logistics mission from Khar to Nawa Pass supporting Op Al Mizan. While at Nawa Pass helipad the helicopter came under rocket attack by the miscreants. The pilot took off immediately but the helicopter caught fire so the pilot decided to force land. Unfortunately the helicopter crashed and caught fire. The three on board, which also included NK Nadeem Khan, were lost. 
*February 10, 2010 AH-1F 786-034*
Major Muddassar Razzaq and Captain Asim Karim were detailed to engage miscreants in Terah Valley with two Bell 412s in support of Op Al Mizan. The helicopter was hit by rockets fired by the miscreants and crashed into Terah Valley (Khyber Agency). Both pilots died.
*February 23, 2010 Mi-8MTV 58504*
Major Kafeel Ahmed and Captain Rizwan Sohail were flying on a night training mission at Ghazi airfield, Tarbela. During the second circuit the crew encountered a technical problem and crashed. Flight Engineer Hav Masood ur Rahman suffered critical injuries and died.
*April 8, 2010 MFI-17 (86-5)147*
Capt Abdul Rashid Hakeem encountered a technical malfunction after taking off from Peshawar. He tried to land the aircraft and while trying to avoid a built up area the MFI-17 crashed in Naghuman area near Charsada.
*September 12, 2010 MFI-17 (80-5)095*
Captain Kamran Ikram Khan was killed when he crashed during a solo flying training mission. The aircraft lost control and crashed at Rasul Nagar.
*December 22, 2010 MFI-17 (95-5)363*
Captain Muhammad Zahoor ul Haq was flying his Mushshak with Hav Maqsood Ahmed alongside from Zhob to Quetta-Khalid on a navigation mission in a formation of three MFI-17s. About eight miles (13km) south east of Muslim Bagh the aircraft hit a mountain and caught fire, due to heavy winds. 
*May 23, 2012 S-300 ?*
Instructor Pilot Major Zahid Bari and student pilot Captain Irfan Ahmed of Rotary Course 13 (and ex 34 Frontier Force Regiment) were detailed for flying in their Schweizer S-300. While on their sortie, radio contact was lost and after a search the helicopter was found ditched in the River Chanab. The body of Captain Irfan was recovered on May 28 and Major Zahid, who had been honoured the Tamgha-e-Basalat medal, was recovered on May 31, 2012.
*July 11, 2012 Mi-8MTV 58508*
The Mi-8MTV was on a test flight from Skardu when it crashed. The pilots, Major Amir Azam and Major Shuaib, plus crew Hav Abdul Waheed, Hav Zeeshan Haider and Nk Muhammad Imran, were killed, although there was one survivor.



Helen Keller was an American author, political activist, and lecturer. She was the first deaf and blind person to earn a Bachelor of Arts degree. One of her verses is inscribed on a plaque with a dedication to the fallen aviators.

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## nomi007

shameful democracy and poor government from last 5 years 
did not see any major development in armed forces 
look state of the art cobra

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> shameful democracy and poor government from last 5 years
> did not see any major development in armed forces
> look state of the art cobra


 they are there to be used not look pretty!

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## Jango

Gessler said:


> I don't think he was talking about how pretty it looks, I believe he was pointing at
> all the rusted-looking airframe. The outer appearance does tell *something* about
> the age & general health of the chopper within.



It isn't rusted.

There is a reason it is called olive drab, it looks like that. Then the whether conditions aren't all that optimal either for having a shiny heli!

And thirdly, washing a heli is the last thing somebody cares about when in Waziristan.


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## nomi007




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## Gessler

nuclearpak said:


> It isn't rusted.
> 
> There is a reason it is called olive drab, it looks like that. Then the whether conditions aren't all that optimal either for having a shiny heli!
> 
> And thirdly, washing a heli is the last thing somebody cares about when in Waziristan.



I only said it was "rusted-looking". That being said, Pak's AH-1s aren't the best-mainted
helos even among other Pak helos.


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## Kompromat

Gessler said:


> I only said it was "rusted-looking". That being said, Pak's AH-1s aren't the best-mainted
> helos even among other Pak helos.



They look rusty because they are being extensively used in military operations.

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## Gessler

Aeronaut said:


> They look rusty because they are being extensively used in military operations.



NATO choppers are often subject to much greater activity in Afghanistan, and they don't
look as "rusty" as zis one!

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## Gryphon

*Cobra Crash Serious Blow For Pakistan Army*
_
October 29, 2013 | By Usman Ansari






Pakistan's loss of a Cobra attack helicopter on patrol will be difficult to replace as the fleet ages. (Agence France-Presse)

*ISLAMABAD* — Pakistan’s counterinsurgency efforts suffered a serious blow yesterday with the loss of an AH-1F Cobra gunship. The fleet is aging fast as it is heavily deployed in harsh terrain along the border with Afghanistan.

A report by the Associated Press of Pakistan quoted the military’s Inter Service Press Release (ISPR) media arm saying the helicopter had made a forced landing near the town of Rahwali after a “technical fault.”

The two crew members were said to have suffered slight injuries, and were taken to nearby Central Military Hospital, Gujranwala. The crash site was secured by local police and Army personnel.

Images available of the crash show the helicopter broken in at least two pieces behind the cockpit. The skids have collapsed, and the engine and tail separated.

However, the number in service is uncertain. Some sources cite approximately 40, but it is unknown how many are operational and how many are being cannibalized to keep the others flying.

The US has delivered extra airframes with a small number arriving in Pakistan in 2007 and made operational again with the help of US firm DynCorp.

More recently eight ex-Jordanian AH-1S Cobras were delivered earlier this month.

Regardless of the number in service, Pakistan cannot afford to lose any.

A spokesman for ISPR, asked how many of the ex-Jordanian Cobras are flying or if any details of the crash are available, would only say, “No such details [are] available right now.”

The crash has focused attention on the need to retire the helos, but Pakistan’s enfeebled economy is unlikely to be able to generate the required funds.

Given how hard-pressed the fleet increasingly is, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, praises the fact they are still operational.

“It speaks volumes for the servicing effort that there have not been other technical faults that have resulted in accidents,” he said.

Additional political factors also make replacement difficult.

“Certainly, there should be an going replacement of the Cobra fleet, but unless this can be arranged on a no-cost or much-reduced cost basis, Pakistan is going to find it very difficult indeed to find the money, with the IMF breathing down its neck, and a rather negative US Congress,” Cloughley said.

Pakistan has two options. Turkey is offering the TAI T-129, and the US could provide the AH-1Z.

Turkey has offered three T-129s at no cost, and possible local assembly, but Pakistan would have to buy the rest, perhaps 40 or so helicopters, to replace the Cobra fleet. So it is uncertain if Pakistan could afford the deal.

According to analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, Turkey has already helped Pakistan support its Cobra fleet.

“Initially there was a problem with acquiring spare parts from the US, but later the majority of parts were procured from Turkey,” he said.

Both sides seem willing to capitalize on this, but Pakistan’s financial woes have hampered progress.

Efforts to secure replacement gunships from the US have for years focused on the AH-1Z, but the US Marine Corps is given priority over any foreign order.

It is thought that a number could be acquired by Pakistan through access to US funding, but official sources here have been unwilling to discuss if such an offer has been made, as has been speculated.

Opting for an offer of AH-1Zs would definitely be the more affordable choice for Pakistan, but could come at a cost of alienating fraternal ally Turkey.

Khan is clear where the next step for Pakistan lies however.

“The next and immediate step should to accept the three gifted T-129s from Turkey, along with the spare parts, and start moving in the direction of setting up an assembly line for these potent helicopters,” he said.

Purely on technical and operational terms, he said an AH-1Z deal would be a good idea however.

“If this notification comes to fruit Pakistan will have two options; either to buy brand new AH-1Zs or procure the stored airframes of AH-1 F/S/W and convert them into AH-1Z,” he said.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/...290019/Cobra-Crash-Serious-Blow-Pakistan-Army
_


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## Devil Soul

*Close call: Army helicopter crashes, pilots unhurt*
By APP
Published: October 30, 2013




*GUJRANWALA: *A Pakistan Army gunship helicopter crashed here on Monday. The pilots were slightly injured, but survived. Civil Lines SP Shoaib Khurram said that the chopper had fallen in the Cantonment area in an open place in a factory. He said Major Furqan and Major Imran had jumped out of the chopper using parachutes. The chopper caught fire before it crashed. Army officials and police soon reached the scene and started rescue operation. The pilots were taken to Combined Military Hospital. Police speculated that there had been some mechanical fault in the machine.


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## Mad King

Pakistan need to upgrade or replace these combat helis soon. They are old and less efficient. Their efficiency is decreasing in asymmetrical warfare. They should either be replaced by turkish or chinese versions for current warfare and for long term they should work in tech transfer of combat helis seriously.

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## Tacticool

nomi007 said:


>


What is the name of 1st heli and the heli at background?
I think 1st one is mi-171 and other mi-8


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## Jango

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> What is the name of 1st heli and the heli at background?
> I think 1st one is mi-171 and other mi-8


Both are Mi-17, one is the V5 model (with the dolphin nose and radar and ramp door), the other is an older ball.


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## Kompromat

Gessler said:


> NATO choppers are often subject to much greater activity in Afghanistan, and they don't
> look as "rusty" as zis one!



No NATO helos are as old as our AH-1s and no they don't carry out as many operations as we do. Active operations in Afghanistan have ended for good 2 years.

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## Kompromat

Mad King said:


> Pakistan need to upgrade or replace these combat helis soon. They are old and less efficient. Their efficiency is decreasing in asymmetrical warfare. They should either be replaced by turkish or chinese versions for current warfare and for long term they should work in tech transfer of combat helis seriously.




Friend, we don't really have the luxury of large funds to replace our attack helos. However there is a good deal with Turkey on the horizon, should that materialize, we would be able to produce high tech helos at home and eventually be able to replace all of our older cobras with state of the art T-129Bs.

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## DESERT FIGHTER

*Azme nau III:*






*PN Z-9Es:
*




*PN heli on US A/C:*

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## fatman17

nice job DF but restrict yourself to PAA pics - thx 


DESERT FIGHTER said:


>


 
this had to be the most difficult op undertaken by the army and the PAA. PAA suffered many losses here.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> n*ice job DF but restrict yourself to PAA pics* - thx
> 
> this had to be the most difficult op undertaken by the army and the PAA. PAA suffered many losses here.



WILCO sir!





























(not sure if posted before)... if i have kindly remind me il delete those pics @fatman17! 




*Pic taken during Swat operation:*

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## nomi007

*Azm-e- Nau 4*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

nomi007 said:


> *Azm-e- Nau 4*



Yaar post this in Pak military thread aswell..


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## nomi007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yaar post this in Pak military thread aswell..


which thread they are junks sorry 2 say


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## DESERT FIGHTER

nomi007 said:


> which thread they are junks sorry 2 say



This junk :

https://defence.pk/posts/4917773/

Posted alot of pics from Azme nau 4 ex there...

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## GEMINI

Why are there too much MI's flying in multan today? I have seen a lot of them flying around. sometimes alone and mostly in a pack of 5.


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## Khaqan Humayun

Give a kind support to these people who want to some thing good for you.




Tiger and Tarkish attack helicopters are good if thy provide transfer of technology.


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## Inception-06

Today I did see a picture from this current exercise Azme...... In Internet, where the Bell Jetranger Helicopter was flying near a Cobra Helicopter, I was happy to see that the Jetranger Plays still his role as the Scout Heli for the Cobra, it is still in Service Since over 20 years ! I will Post the picture later....


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## Inception-06

Here is the link for the picture

https://twitter.com/AsimBajwaISPR


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## Bratva

*Two firms supplying army helicopters blacklisted*

ISLAMABAD: Two companies supplying helicopters to the army have been blacklisted for allegedly leaking sensitive information to the United States.

The companies — Aerotron Private Ltd and Aerotron FZE (AF) — which had been supplying Bell and Sikorsky helicopters to the army for over 38 years were blacklisted on May 26 last year because of security reasons.

The companies had challenged the ban in the Islamabad High Court in September last year. At the request of the military authorities, the IHC had held the proceedings in camera and recently reserved its judgment.

In a joint reply submitted to the court through their counsel Tariq Mehmood Jahangiri, the respondents — chief of general staff, director general of the Military Intelligence, general officer commanding and director general of procurement (army) — alleged that the companies had “passed on to an unauthorised person classified information pertaining to the Pakistan Army”.

The sensitive information had been provided to the US Office of Defence Representative in Pakistan by Azhar Wali Mohammad and Fahad Azhar. It said: “The petitioners (companies) had no reason to pass on that information to the US office.”

The reply claimed that during a meeting with senior officials of the MI in Rawalpindi in Sept 2011, the companies’ owners admitted that they had passed on the information but insisted that it was not classified. According to them, it was available in the media and was essential for business purposes. “If the petitioners are concerned about their fundamental rights and wanted their enforcement under the constitution of Pakistan, they should also be cognizant of their duty to remain loyal to the state under the provision of the same constitution,” the reply argued.

The petitioners had challenged the May 26, 2012 letter by the director general procurement, informing them that their companies had been barred from any business deal with the army and defence organisations because of security reasons.

They said their principal, Bell Helicopters Supply Centre in the Netherlands, had been informed on May 9. The army told the centre that it had severed its ties with the Aerotron companies on Oct 14, 2011, and requested it to stop communications with the companies and their representatives.

During the hearing, the petitioners’ counsel, Abdul Hafeez Pirzada, said that after the ban the companies served legal notice on the respondents but they neither responded nor pointed out any illegality on part of the petitioners.

He argued that the reference to security concerns in the May 9 letter to the Bell Helicopters Supply Centre was ambiguous and insufficient to constitute a valid reason as required by law. Also it was written without informing or providing the companies an opportunity to show cause and being heard to rebut any alleged ground for the purported decision of blacklisting.

“The executive and public functionaries under the constitution cannot take any unilateral decision or pass an adverse order without hearing the accused party,” the counsel argued.


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## fatman17

*Cobra Crash Serious Blow For Pakistan Army*
*
Oct. 29, 2013 - 04:15PM | By USMAN ANSARI *







*Pakistan's loss of a Cobra attack helicopter on patrol will be difficult to replace as the fleet ages. (Agence France-Presse)*

*ISLAMABAD* — Pakistan’s counterinsurgency efforts suffered a serious blow yesterday with the loss of an AH-1F Cobra gunship. The fleet is aging fast as it is heavily deployed in harsh terrain along the border with Afghanistan.

A report by the Associated Press of Pakistan quoted the military’s Inter Service Press Release (ISPR) media arm saying the helicopter had made a forced landing near the town of Rahwali after a “technical fault.”

The two crew members were said to have suffered slight injuries, and were taken to nearby Central Military Hospital, Gujranwala. The crash site was secured by local police and Army personnel.
Images available of the crash show the helicopter broken in at least two pieces behind the cockpit. The skids have collapsed, and the engine and tail separated.

However, the number in service is uncertain. Some sources cite approximately 40, but it is unknown how many are operational and how many are being cannibalized to keep the others flying.

The US has delivered extra airframes with a small number arriving in Pakistan in 2007 and made operational again with the help of US firm DynCorp.

More recently eight ex-Jordanian AH-1S Cobras were delivered earlier this month.

Regardless of the number in service, Pakistan cannot afford to lose any.

A spokesman for ISPR, asked how many of the ex-Jordanian Cobras are flying or if any details of the crash are available, would only say, “No such details [are] available right now.”

The crash has focused attention on the need to retire the helos, but Pakistan’s enfeebled economy is unlikely to be able to generate the required funds.

Given how hard-pressed the fleet increasingly is, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, praises the fact they are still operational.

“It speaks volumes for the servicing effort that there have not been other technical faults that have resulted in accidents,” he said.

Additional political factors also make replacement difficult.

“Certainly, there should be an going replacement of the Cobra fleet, but unless this can be arranged on a no-cost or much-reduced cost basis, Pakistan is going to find it very difficult indeed to find the money, with the IMF breathing down its neck, and a rather negative US Congress,” Cloughley said.

Pakistan has two options. Turkey is offering the TAI T-129, and the US could provide the AH-1Z.
Turkey has offered three T-129s at no cost, and possible local assembly, but Pakistan would have to buy the rest, perhaps 40 or so helicopters, to replace the Cobra fleet. So it is uncertain if Pakistan could afford the deal.

According to analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, Turkey has already helped Pakistan support its Cobra fleet.

“Initially there was a problem with acquiring spare parts from the US, but later the majority of parts were procured from Turkey,” he said.

Both sides seem willing to capitalize on this, but Pakistan’s financial woes have hampered progress.
Efforts to secure replacement gunships from the US have for years focused on the AH-1Z, but the US Marine Corps is given priority over any foreign order.

It is thought that a number could be acquired by Pakistan through access to US funding, but official sources here have been unwilling to discuss if such an offer has been made, as has been speculated.

Opting for an offer of AH-1Zs would definitely be the more affordable choice for Pakistan, but could come at a cost of alienating fraternal ally Turkey.

Khan is clear where the next step for Pakistan lies however.

“The next and immediate step should to accept the three gifted T-129s from Turkey, along with the spare parts, and start moving in the direction of setting up an assembly line for these potent helicopters,” he said.

Purely on technical and operational terms, he said an AH-1Z deal would be a good idea however.
“If this notification comes to fruit Pakistan will have two options; either to buy brand new AH-1Zs or procure the stored airframes of AH-1 F/S/W and convert them into AH-1Z,” he said.

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## nomi007



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## Arsalan

Economy is being the only problem hindering the procurement of the T-129? I think the US must also be influencing to stop that deal from happening as it will be a real boost for Pakistan Armed Forces. Specially keeping in mind that there had been talks of local manufacturing so that will stop the problem of spares, up gradation and even replenishment once and for all.

In a perfect world PA should go for a couple of squadrons of the cheaper AZ-1Z (used and may be a part of the deal funded) and then keep their following the T-129 local production. But as said, that will be an ideal condition.



fatman17 said:


> *Cobra Crash Serious Blow For Pakistan Army*
> *Oct. 29, 2013 - 04:15PM | By USMAN ANSARI *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan's loss of a Cobra attack helicopter on patrol will be difficult to replace as the fleet ages. (Agence France-Presse)*
> 
> *ISLAMABAD* — Pakistan’s counterinsurgency efforts suffered a serious blow yesterday with the loss of an AH-1F Cobra gunship. The fleet is aging fast as it is heavily deployed in harsh terrain along the border with Afghanistan.
> 
> A report by the Associated Press of Pakistan quoted the military’s Inter Service Press Release (ISPR) media arm saying the helicopter had made a forced landing near the town of Rahwali after a “technical fault.”
> 
> The two crew members were said to have suffered slight injuries, and were taken to nearby Central Military Hospital, Gujranwala. The crash site was secured by local police and Army personnel.
> Images available of the crash show the helicopter broken in at least two pieces behind the cockpit. The skids have collapsed, and the engine and tail separated.
> 
> However, the number in service is uncertain. Some sources cite approximately 40, but it is unknown how many are operational and how many are being cannibalized to keep the others flying.
> 
> The US has delivered extra airframes with a small number arriving in Pakistan in 2007 and made operational again with the help of US firm DynCorp.
> 
> More recently eight ex-Jordanian AH-1S Cobras were delivered earlier this month.
> 
> Regardless of the number in service, Pakistan cannot afford to lose any.
> 
> A spokesman for ISPR, asked how many of the ex-Jordanian Cobras are flying or if any details of the crash are available, would only say, “No such details [are] available right now.”
> 
> The crash has focused attention on the need to retire the helos, but Pakistan’s enfeebled economy is unlikely to be able to generate the required funds.
> 
> Given how hard-pressed the fleet increasingly is, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, praises the fact they are still operational.
> 
> “It speaks volumes for the servicing effort that there have not been other technical faults that have resulted in accidents,” he said.
> 
> Additional political factors also make replacement difficult.
> 
> “Certainly, there should be an going replacement of the Cobra fleet, but unless this can be arranged on a no-cost or much-reduced cost basis, Pakistan is going to find it very difficult indeed to find the money, with the IMF breathing down its neck, and a rather negative US Congress,” Cloughley said.
> 
> Pakistan has two options. Turkey is offering the TAI T-129, and the US could provide the AH-1Z.
> Turkey has offered three T-129s at no cost, and possible local assembly, but Pakistan would have to buy the rest, perhaps 40 or so helicopters, to replace the Cobra fleet. So it is uncertain if Pakistan could afford the deal.
> 
> According to analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, Turkey has already helped Pakistan support its Cobra fleet.
> 
> “Initially there was a problem with acquiring spare parts from the US, but later the majority of parts were procured from Turkey,” he said.
> 
> Both sides seem willing to capitalize on this, but Pakistan’s financial woes have hampered progress.
> Efforts to secure replacement gunships from the US have for years focused on the AH-1Z, but the US Marine Corps is given priority over any foreign order.
> 
> It is thought that a number could be acquired by Pakistan through access to US funding, but official sources here have been unwilling to discuss if such an offer has been made, as has been speculated.
> 
> Opting for an offer of AH-1Zs would definitely be the more affordable choice for Pakistan, but could come at a cost of alienating fraternal ally Turkey.
> 
> Khan is clear where the next step for Pakistan lies however.
> 
> “The next and immediate step should to accept the three gifted T-129s from Turkey, along with the spare parts, and start moving in the direction of setting up an assembly line for these potent helicopters,” he said.
> 
> Purely on technical and operational terms, he said an AH-1Z deal would be a good idea however.
> “If this notification comes to fruit Pakistan will have two options; either to buy brand new AH-1Zs or procure the stored airframes of AH-1 F/S/W and convert them into AH-1Z,” he said.


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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## DESERT FIGHTER

Pakistani army helicopters fly over the earthquake affected district of Awaran on September 25, 2013. A powerful 6.8-magnitude earthquake hit southwest Pakistan, killing at least 12 people in a region already devastated by a tremor which left more than 300 people dead this week, local officials said. AFP PHOTO/ Banaras KHAN (Photo credit should read BANARAS KHAN/AFP/Getty Images)
28 Sep 2013


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## Nishan_101

fatman17 said:


> *Cobra Crash Serious Blow For Pakistan Army*
> *Oct. 29, 2013 - 04:15PM | By USMAN ANSARI *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan's loss of a Cobra attack helicopter on patrol will be difficult to replace as the fleet ages. (Agence France-Presse)*
> 
> *ISLAMABAD* — Pakistan’s counterinsurgency efforts suffered a serious blow yesterday with the loss of an AH-1F Cobra gunship. The fleet is aging fast as it is heavily deployed in harsh terrain along the border with Afghanistan.
> 
> A report by the Associated Press of Pakistan quoted the military’s Inter Service Press Release (ISPR) media arm saying the helicopter had made a forced landing near the town of Rahwali after a “technical fault.”
> 
> The two crew members were said to have suffered slight injuries, and were taken to nearby Central Military Hospital, Gujranwala. The crash site was secured by local police and Army personnel.
> Images available of the crash show the helicopter broken in at least two pieces behind the cockpit. The skids have collapsed, and the engine and tail separated.
> 
> However, the number in service is uncertain. Some sources cite approximately 40, but it is unknown how many are operational and how many are being cannibalized to keep the others flying.
> 
> The US has delivered extra airframes with a small number arriving in Pakistan in 2007 and made operational again with the help of US firm DynCorp.
> 
> More recently eight ex-Jordanian AH-1S Cobras were delivered earlier this month.
> 
> Regardless of the number in service, Pakistan cannot afford to lose any.
> 
> A spokesman for ISPR, asked how many of the ex-Jordanian Cobras are flying or if any details of the crash are available, would only say, “No such details [are] available right now.”
> 
> The crash has focused attention on the need to retire the helos, but Pakistan’s enfeebled economy is unlikely to be able to generate the required funds.
> 
> Given how hard-pressed the fleet increasingly is, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, praises the fact they are still operational.
> 
> “It speaks volumes for the servicing effort that there have not been other technical faults that have resulted in accidents,” he said.
> 
> Additional political factors also make replacement difficult.
> 
> “Certainly, there should be an going replacement of the Cobra fleet, but unless this can be arranged on a no-cost or much-reduced cost basis, Pakistan is going to find it very difficult indeed to find the money, with the IMF breathing down its neck, and a rather negative US Congress,” Cloughley said.
> 
> Pakistan has two options. Turkey is offering the TAI T-129, and the US could provide the AH-1Z.
> Turkey has offered three T-129s at no cost, and possible local assembly, but Pakistan would have to buy the rest, perhaps 40 or so helicopters, to replace the Cobra fleet. So it is uncertain if Pakistan could afford the deal.
> 
> According to analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, Turkey has already helped Pakistan support its Cobra fleet.
> 
> “Initially there was a problem with acquiring spare parts from the US, but later the majority of parts were procured from Turkey,” he said.
> 
> Both sides seem willing to capitalize on this, but Pakistan’s financial woes have hampered progress.
> Efforts to secure replacement gunships from the US have for years focused on the AH-1Z, but the US Marine Corps is given priority over any foreign order.
> 
> It is thought that a number could be acquired by Pakistan through access to US funding, but official sources here have been unwilling to discuss if such an offer has been made, as has been speculated.
> 
> Opting for an offer of AH-1Zs would definitely be the more affordable choice for Pakistan, but could come at a cost of alienating fraternal ally Turkey.
> 
> Khan is clear where the next step for Pakistan lies however.
> 
> “The next and immediate step should to accept the three gifted T-129s from Turkey, along with the spare parts, and start moving in the direction of setting up an assembly line for these potent helicopters,” he said.
> 
> Purely on technical and operational terms, he said an AH-1Z deal would be a good idea however.
> “If this notification comes to fruit Pakistan will have two options; either to buy brand new AH-1Zs or procure the stored airframes of AH-1 F/S/W and convert them into AH-1Z,” he said.



Can PAC help them Armed Forces? Like Starting up a JV program with China on Attack, Small, Light Medium, Medium and Heavy helicopters.....


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## fatman17

starting a JV is not a piece of cake. for the near future only more examples of Cobras are on the horizon....for the turkish JV, pakistan needs to put up at least 1B$ upfront to have a meaningful JV.


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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## nomi007



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## Inception-06

nomi007 said:


>




 ye to booooot parani and double posted picture he ?


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## nomi007

AH-1F Cobra Attack Helicopters of Pakistan Army in Action During Azm E Nau

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## nomi007

Air Force: More: Netherlands - Air Force 
Aircraft: More: Sud Aviation SE.3160 Alouette III Photos 
Registration: H-67 (cn 1367) 
Location: More: Off-Airport - Scheveningen - Netherlands 
Photo Date: June 7, 1989
Photographer: More: Joop de Groot Contact


Photographer Remarks: This Alouette of the SAR Flight performs a rescue demonstration off the Scheveningen coast. This aircraft was sold to the Pakistan air force in 1993.

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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## Inception-06

nomi007 said:


>


and now ? what you want to say with this post ? That all Pakistani Helicopters should be able to carry a Board gun for air borne operations ? If yes, than you have my full support !

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## Donatello

The Cobra Gunships are being overhauled at Kamra, seems like the USA is at it's dirty tricks again. Can anyone say anything about what is going on?

Are the Cobras going to be what F-16s were in 1990s?

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## Inception-06

Donatello said:


> The Cobra Gunships are being overhauled at Kamra, seems like the USA is at it's dirty tricks again. Can anyone say anything about what is going on?
> 
> Are the Cobras going to be what F-16s were in 1990s?



I will ask this the Centcom guy !


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## khanboy007

Donatello said:


> The Cobra Gunships are being overhauled at Kamra, seems like the USA is at it's dirty tricks again. Can anyone say anything about what is going on?
> 
> Are the Cobras going to be what F-16s were in 1990s?



perhaps by this overhaul they may become new  and to add on we use single engined variant, considering the way they have been put to use since WOT, I suggest the gov. should release funds for new attack helo's....its about time 

IMO a sweet talk with the russians could help, how about a Ka-50 
its the *black *one





Kamov Ka-50 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> *The Cobra Gunships are being overhauled at Kamra*, seems like the USA is at it's dirty tricks again. Can anyone say anything about what is going on?
> 
> Are the Cobras going to be what F-16s were in 1990s?


 
since when???

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> since when???




It was mentioned in one of the the interviews, plus there were Cobras seen at PAC alongside JF-17.

I think it was posted in JF-17 thread......


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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> since when???



I did also read it in a online internet source I will try to finde it.


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> I did also read it in a online internet source I will try to finde it.


 
the cobras may be using kamra for re-fuelling and routine maintenance bcuz their main base Multan is away from the forward areas (FATA) - i doubt if there are overhaul facilities at Kamra. dhamial and multan - yes.

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> the cobras may be using kamra for re-fuelling and routine maintenance bcuz their main base Multan is away from the forward areas (FATA)



Ghazi airbase and Peshawar are used for that purpose. A detachment of the EME unit is stationed at Tarbela and Peshawar for that very purpose. Baki chota mota kaam Miranshah main hi ho jata hai.



> - i doubt if there are overhaul facilities at Kamra. dhamial and multan - yes.



I posed the exact question. 

Dhamial and Multan don't have any overhaul facilities either, Multan has a EME unit stationed there (note that overhaul and maintenance are to different things). Dhamial none.

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## fatman17

*Helicopters *


*

**Z-20*



A new "general purpose helicopter" in 10t class has been under development at 602/Harbin/Changhe since late 90s. It was speculated to be based on American *S-70C* currently still in service with PLA but also shares some common features with *Z-10*, such as a five-blade main rotor and twin Canadian PT6C-76C engines. However the project was delayed by the development of high priority *Z-10* attack helicopter. Similar to *Z-10*, the helicopter also suffered several setbacks due to certain technical/political obstacles, such as obtaining a suitable engine as well as developing a new transmission system (with Eurocopter assistance). The project (now designated as *Z-20*) finally gained full speed after *Z-10* was put into production in 2010. The finalized design might borrow certain features from European NH-90 and be powered by more powerful WZ-6C turboshaft engines (1,800kw). The first prototype was rumored to have rolled down the assembly line in December 2012. First flight is expected in late 2013. *Z-20* is projected to replace eventually the large number of Russian *Mi-17* series in service with the Army Aviation. Recent images (August 2013) suggested a what could be a *Z-20* frame was being transported for static tests. The latest image suggested that the *Z-20* prototype #20001 made its first flight at the HAIG airfield on December 23, 2013, almost 30 years since China acquired *S-70C*.
_- Last updated 12/24/13_

_another option for the PAA for medium-lift helos!_



nuclearpak said:


> Ghazi airbase and Peshawar are used for that purpose. A detachment of the EME unit is stationed at Tarbela and Peshawar for that very purpose. Baki chota mota kaam Miranshah main hi ho jata hai.
> 
> 
> 
> I posed the exact question.
> 
> Dhamial and Multan don't have any overhaul facilities either, Multan has a EME unit stationed there (note that overhaul and maintenance are to different things). Dhamial none.


 
overhaul in PAA parlance is engine overhaul. a full overhaul, sort of like a MLU are conducted overseas. Romania for the Pumas, Czeck republic for the Mi-17's etc. certainly engine overhaul and routine maintenance are conducted by EME at multan and dhamial.

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> overhaul in PAA parlance is engine overhaul. a full overhaul, sort of like a MLU are conducted overseas. Romania for the Pumas, Czeck republic for the Mi-17's etc. certainly engine overhaul and routine maintenance are conducted by EME at multan and dhamial.



Actually Pakistan does have the capability to overhaul an entire Mi-17 except the engines and transmission. The helos are sent abroad due to capacity issues.

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## Inception-06

nuclearpak said:


> Actually Pakistan does have the capability to overhaul an entire Mi-17 except the engines and transmission. The helos are sent abroad due to capacity issues.



The overhaul facility is in Karachi right ?


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## Khaqan Humayun

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> what about euro copter tiger..... there were news that Pakistan is getting 18 of them


_*None of them were delivered to Pakistan we can not trust NATO U.S.A and U.K
we must go for T129 and for Chinese Z19 Attack helicopter. *_

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## Jango

Ulla said:


> The overhaul facility is in Karachi right ?


 Yes...at Faisal.


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## Donatello

nuclearpak said:


> Actually Pakistan does have the capability to overhaul an entire Mi-17 except the engines and transmission. The helos are sent abroad due to capacity issues.




It would make sense for Pakistan to develop full in house capability to overhaul/repair these helos, since so many of them are in service. Why not establish a rebuild factory, like we did for F-6s, F-7 and Mirage at PAC?

One of those can be retooled, as Mirage and F-7 are both due for retirement.


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## truthseeker2010

There have been lot of construction activity going on at Faisal Base, if one come across shahrah-e-faisal, one can see lot of containers and large superstructure being erected, any ideas whats coming, is it for AF or army?


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## nomi007

Ghazi Aviation Base




16th Combat Aviation Brigade soldiers and Pakistan Army soldiers pose for a 
group photo before the Task Force Denali closing ceremony in Khyber - 
Pakhtunkhwa, Pakistan, Dec. 2. The event marked the end of the five-month 
flood-relief mission out of Ghazi Aviation Base


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## fatman17

*Did China Just Clone a Black Hawk Helicopter?*
China conducted the first flight test of its new Z-20, which has a similar exterior to the US-made Black Hawk.




By Zachary Keck for The Diplomat
December 26, 2013

China conducted the first flight test of a new helicopter that is widely seen as being modeled off the U.S.-made Sikorsky UH-60, which is usually called “Black Hawk.”
_The Global Times_, citing pictures from an online Chinese military forum, reported that the Z-20 medium-lift utility helicopter made its first flight in northeast China on Monday. The report said that the supposedly homemade design filled the People Liberation Army’s need for a medium utility helicopter. It added that the helicopter has a capacity of 10 tons and is similar in appearance to the U.S.-made Black Hawk helicopter.
In the 1980s, China purchased 24 S-70C-2s, a supposed civilian variant of the Black Hawk that had impressed Chinese leaders due to its ability to fly at high altitudes. However, it is widely believed that the 24 S-70 C-2s are operated by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). Moreover, Pakistan’s intelligence service gave Chinese engineers access to one of the highly-modified Black Hawks that was used by U.S. Marines in the operation that killed al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in 2011. The helicopter that Chinese engineers viewed and took samples from crashed during the course of the operation. Although the U.S. Marines detonated the downed helicopter the tail of it survived the explosion.
Thus, it seems quite possible that this latest “indigenous” creation from China was heavily inspired by foreign designs. There would be extensive precedent for this. Besides China’s general history of cloning foreign defense technology, last year it unveiled a new helicopter, the Z-10/WZ-10 attack helicopter, which it claimed was designed and built indigenously. Earlier this year, however, Sergei Mikheyev, General Designer of the Kamov Design Bureau, a Russian helicopter designer, revealed that his company had secretly provided China with the initial designs of the Z-10/WZ-10 in the mid-1990s. Some have speculated that China has also cloned Boeing’s AH-64D Apache. 
Still, _The Aviationist_ points out that there are some notable differences between America’s Black Hawk and the Z-20. Specifically, the Z-20 has a 5-blade rotor compared to the 4-blade rotor on the Black Hawk, a larger cabin and a different landing gear and tail. Based on the location of the flight test, _Aviation Week_ suspects that it was built by Harbin Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation (HAMC).
As for usage, _South China Morning Post_ quotes a Chinese military analyst as saying the Z-20 “fills a blank in the Chinese military arsenal.” Another military commentator who appeared on Chinese state TV reportedly said that the Z-20 should be categorized as something between agile attack helicopters and heavy transportation helicopters. SCMP views the helicopter as extremely versatile and able to perform a variety of missions including assault, transportation, electronic warfare and special operations. The Hong Kong-based newspaper also said Chinese media reports had speculated that it may be flown off certain Chinese ships, including the country’s only aircraft carrier. Another potential usage would be to use the Z-20 to deploy PLA troops to the mountainous, resistive region of Tibet.
_The Aviationist _predicts the Z-20 will eventually replace the PLA’s Mi-17 and Mi-171 helos.


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## Khaqan Humayun

fatman17 said:


> *Did China Just Clone a Black Hawk Helicopter?*
> China conducted the first flight test of its new Z-20, which has a similar exterior to the US-made Black Hawk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By Zachary Keck for The Diplomat
> December 26, 2013
> 
> China conducted the first flight test of a new helicopter that is widely seen as being modeled off the U.S.-made Sikorsky UH-60, which is usually called “Black Hawk.”
> _The Global Times_, citing pictures from an online Chinese military forum, reported that the Z-20 medium-lift utility helicopter made its first flight in northeast China on Monday. The report said that the supposedly homemade design filled the People Liberation Army’s need for a medium utility helicopter. It added that the helicopter has a capacity of 10 tons and is similar in appearance to the U.S.-made Black Hawk helicopter.
> In the 1980s, China purchased 24 S-70C-2s, a supposed civilian variant of the Black Hawk that had impressed Chinese leaders due to its ability to fly at high altitudes. However, it is widely believed that the 24 S-70 C-2s are operated by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). Moreover, Pakistan’s intelligence service gave Chinese engineers access to one of the highly-modified Black Hawks that was used by U.S. Marines in the operation that killed al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in 2011. The helicopter that Chinese engineers viewed and took samples from crashed during the course of the operation. Although the U.S. Marines detonated the downed helicopter the tail of it survived the explosion.
> Thus, it seems quite possible that this latest “indigenous” creation from China was heavily inspired by foreign designs. There would be extensive precedent for this. Besides China’s general history of cloning foreign defense technology, last year it unveiled a new helicopter, the Z-10/WZ-10 attack helicopter, which it claimed was designed and built indigenously. Earlier this year, however, Sergei Mikheyev, General Designer of the Kamov Design Bureau, a Russian helicopter designer, revealed that his company had secretly provided China with the initial designs of the Z-10/WZ-10 in the mid-1990s. Some have speculated that China has also cloned Boeing’s AH-64D Apache.
> Still, _The Aviationist_ points out that there are some notable differences between America’s Black Hawk and the Z-20. Specifically, the Z-20 has a 5-blade rotor compared to the 4-blade rotor on the Black Hawk, a larger cabin and a different landing gear and tail. Based on the location of the flight test, _Aviation Week_ suspects that it was built by Harbin Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation (HAMC).
> As for usage, _South China Morning Post_ quotes a Chinese military analyst as saying the Z-20 “fills a blank in the Chinese military arsenal.” Another military commentator who appeared on Chinese state TV reportedly said that the Z-20 should be categorized as something between agile attack helicopters and heavy transportation helicopters. SCMP views the helicopter as extremely versatile and able to perform a variety of missions including assault, transportation, electronic warfare and special operations. The Hong Kong-based newspaper also said Chinese media reports had speculated that it may be flown off certain Chinese ships, including the country’s only aircraft carrier. Another potential usage would be to use the Z-20 to deploy PLA troops to the mountainous, resistive region of Tibet.
> _The Aviationist _predicts the Z-20 will eventually replace the PLA’s Mi-17 and Mi-171 helos.


_*China has around 50 Black Hawk Helicopter open Market has played its role Pakistan also purchase many thing through friends we have many Israeli equipment in 1980 we got our tanks modify from Israel through America. I'm just explaining how 3rd party play role in open market. *_


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

*Posted before?
*

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Khaqan Humayun

_*Yes *_
*DESERT FIGHTER*_* Kashmer Is Pakistan no one can forget 1971 war. and also no one can forget Hippocrates like Muktibani and Now one can forget even Bangole can never forget how they are being killed in Bangladesh.
I was with Bangoli in September2013 in Malaysia I saw there faces when they asked me where are you from and I said from Pakistan an Islamic Country and they were feeling embarrassment when they said they are Bangole I asked you got Bangladesh for what?
and they said we were not against Pakistan their were some indian agent in Muktibani. *_



Khaqan Humayun said:


> _*Yes *_
> *DESERT FIGHTER*_* Kashmer Is Pakistan no one can forget 1971 war. and also no one can forget Hippocrates like Muktibani and Now one can forget even Bangole can never forget how they are being killed in Bangladesh.
> I was with Bangoli in September2013 in Malaysia I saw there faces when they asked me where are you from and I said from Pakistan an Islamic Country and they were feeling embarrassment when they said they are Bangole I asked you got Bangladesh for what?
> and they said we were not against Pakistan their were some indian agent in Muktibani. *_


_*Al Quds Lana Quds Phalistine is also our we can never forget *_*Kashmer & Phalistine.*

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## Indus Falcon

DESERT FIGHTER said:


>



ex-UAE?


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## Blackpearl

Pakistan got these Pumas from UAE, but then painted in Pakistani Colours, with Flag and roundals, but Cobras received from Jordan are still not bearing any Pakistani Marking, no flag, no roundals, this is strange. Then ex Jordanian signs are hastily rubbed off using black paint. one can see Camo colour Cobras in previous posts.

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## Zephyrus

This might be a bit late but it's the closest that I could come to Recreating the Camouflage worn by the Example operated by Pakistan Army...
The template in not mine and I intend no copyright infringements...

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## hassan1

MI- 24

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## Khaqan Humayun

Subxer0 said:


> View attachment 12690
> 
> This might be a bit late but it's the closest that I could come to Recreating the Camouflage worn by the Example operated by Pakistan Army...
> The template in not mine and I intend no copyright infringements...


When did it happen??????????????????



hassan1 said:


> MI- 24


_*From where did you get this photo? I was waiting for this news. *_


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Khaqan Humayun said:


> When did it happen??????????????????
> 
> 
> _*From where did you get this photo? I was waiting for this news. *_



Try browsing the thread you will find more...

6 of them defected to Pakistan:


Date -------- Pilot ---------- Place

13-07-1985 -------- Capt. Hussain -------- Landed at Miranshah
16-07-1985 -------- Capt. Daud -------- Landed at Miranshah
23-10-1986 -------- Major. Abdul Munir -------- Landed at Kohat
03-10-1987 -------- Capt. Nokolai Petrovich+2 -------- Landed in Mastuj
03-10-1987 -------- Maj. Yevginin Koszminin+2 -------- Landed at Miranshah
03-07-1989 -------- Capt. Sakiuulah -------- Landed at Qila Abduallh

A few pics (already posted):
















Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated | Page 16

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## Khaqan Humayun

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Try browsing the thread you will find more...
> 
> 6 of them defected to Pakistan:
> 
> 
> Date -------- Pilot ---------- Place
> 
> 13-07-1985 -------- Capt. Hussain -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 16-07-1985 -------- Capt. Daud -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 23-10-1986 -------- Major. Abdul Munir -------- Landed at Kohat
> 03-10-1987 -------- Capt. Nokolai Petrovich+2 -------- Landed in Mastuj
> 03-10-1987 -------- Maj. Yevginin Koszminin+2 -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 03-07-1989 -------- Capt. Sakiuulah -------- Landed at Qila Abduallh
> 
> A few pics (already posted):
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 12822
> View attachment 12823
> View attachment 12824
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated | Page 16


_*We have 6 MI24?*_


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## Inception-06

Khaqan Humayun said:


> _*We have 6 MI24?*_



no most of them were sold illegaly to EU Nations, and U.S.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Khaqan Humayun said:


> _*We have 6 MI24?*_



We "had" ...



Ulla said:


> no most of them were sold illegaly to EU Nations, and U.S.



Not "sold" .. a few were given (as gifts) to (1) US,(1)China etc.. rest are in the junkyard..

And yes we did operate them for a while.


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## Jango

For the last time, we NEVER operated Mi-24 Hinds in an operational capacity. Only flew them a couple of times, and that is it. 

They were never part of the operational setup of PAA.

They have been stored at Quetta since long.

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## Imran Khan



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## Edevelop

*Cobra crash serious blow to Pakistani army's fight against counterinsurgency *






*The Pakistani army using Vietnam era AH-1F Cobra gunship helicopters spend more time on the ground then in the air, and if they cannot engage the Taliban and al-Qaida, it may cost additional American lives.*
*
*
* And the latest crash of a Pakistani Cobra AH-1F gunship near the town of Rahwali due to "technical problems" on Dec. 30, demonstrates the importance of their Cobra fleet to counterinsurgency efforts. If the Pakistan army can’t eliminate the Taliban and al-Qaida on their side of the Afghanistan border, more than normal numbers of American troops may be put in harm’s way.*
*

Pakistan, not happy with the refurbished Cobra helicopters bought from the US back in 2007, has started to modify and rebuild them with spare parts provided by Turkey. The Cobra’s require more than expected amounts of maintenance to keep them in airworthy.*


* And US officials are not keen about this.*


* Reports state that US authorities aired their reservations to the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff to determine if Pakistan is violating its agreement when the US sold them the helicopters.*


* Prior to accepting help from Turkey, Pakistani officials made numerous requests to the U.S. for the spare parts needed to fix their fleet, but were repeatedly told no.*


* No one was killed or seriously hurt when the Cobra AH-1F Gunship hit the ground. Pakistan's military’s Inter Service Press Release (ISPR) stated the helicopter had made a forced landing after a “technical fault.”*


* The release also said that two crewmembers suffered minor injuries and were taken to the Central Military Hospital in nearby Gujranwala. Local police and Pakistani military personnel secured the crash site.*


* Pakistan received the Cobra helicopters as part of a $1 billion weapons package the US sold to four allies including France, Saudi Arabia and Turkey. The main contractor, who refurbished the Cobra helicopters before the sale, was US Helicopter Manufacturing Co. in Ozark, Ala.*


* Washington and the US Department of Defense approved the sale of an unspecified number of refurbished AH-1F Cobra helicopters. The AH-1F was the last upgrade to the Cobra gunship as they were phased out of the US arsenal in 1999.*


* The Pentagon said the additional refurbishment performed on the Cobras would help Pakistan defeat al-Qaida and the Taliban fighters, who are allegedly using the tribal areas as bases to attack US troops in Afghanistan and conduct counterterrorism missions. However, if Pakistan cannot fly Cobra missions, more attacks on US troops is a likely result.*


* The aging fleet of Cobras is making it difficult for Pakistan to heavily deploy them in missions in the harsh, mountainous terrain along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. Cobra helicopters play a significant role for the Pakistani military in SWAT and missions against the Taliban in tribal areas.*


* The number of Cobras in working order is unknown. Some sources cite approximately 40, but this number is optimistic, as Pakistan is currently cannibalizing other Cobras in their fleet to keep the others flying.*


* According to a report from The Associated Press, images of the crash show the helicopter "broken in at least two pieces behind the cockpit. The skids have collapsed, and the engine and tail separated."*


* The crash has put a spotlight on Pakistan's need to acquire newer helicopters and retire the ones that are beginning to fall apart. It makes no difference how many Pakistan has in service, it just can't afford to lose any more of them.*


* Political factors are also making replacing non-working Cobras difficult. The US offered to provide Pakistan with the newer AH-1Z gunship, but the only ones available are in use by the US Marines. And providing the Marines is a priority over Pakistan's needs.*


* Turkey came to Pakistan's rescue, and when the US refused to supply the needed parts, Turkey supplied them to help Pakistan keep their fleet in the air.*


* Turkey has also offered Pakistan three T-129's, not only at no cost to them, but help Pakistan set up local assembly. However, Pakistan would need to replace about 40 Cobras, and it is uncertain if it can afford it.*


* Pakistan had also requested aid for upgrades to its aging fleet of F-16 fighter jets. Pakistan has 46 that have reached their half-life. However, US lawmakers are lukewarm to Pakistan's request, saying that the helicopters are more effective than fighter jets as an insurgency tool.*


* Part of the hesitation by the Americans is that Pakistan has a history of not properly maintaining US-supplied equipment.*


* According to a June 2008 report released by the Government Accountability Office, its auditors documented that despite receiving $55 million in reimbursements to help maintain its fleet, Pakistan's army was not maintaining it, resulting in poor readiness rates for critical assets, which included the AH-1F Cobra and the MI-17 utility helicopters.*


* And while it appears from recent events that Pakistan may now be serious about maintaining its fleet of attack helicopters, whether it becomes more serious about using them against al-Qaida in tribal areas under their control has yet to be seen, said the GAO report.*

Cobra crash serious blow to Pakistani army's fight against counterinsurgency

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## khanboy007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Try browsing the thread you will find more...
> 
> 6 of them defected to Pakistan:
> 
> 
> Date -------- Pilot ---------- Place
> 
> 13-07-1985 -------- Capt. Hussain -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 16-07-1985 -------- Capt. Daud -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 23-10-1986 -------- Major. Abdul Munir -------- Landed at Kohat
> 03-10-1987 -------- Capt. Nokolai Petrovich+2 -------- Landed in Mastuj
> 03-10-1987 -------- Maj. Yevginin Koszminin+2 -------- Landed at Miranshah
> 03-07-1989 -------- Capt. Sakiuulah -------- Landed at Qila Abduallh
> 
> A few pics (already posted):
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 12822
> View attachment 12823
> View attachment 12824
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated | Page 16



is there any chance for revival since we are currently struggling with the old cobras ?!?!?!


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## Imran Khan

khanboy007 said:


> is there any chance for revival since we are currently struggling with the old cobras ?!?!?!


garbage is better them them

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## khanboy007

Imran Khan said:


> garbage is better them them



according to the WIKI it says we operate them

Mil Mi-24 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and we are missing in the former operators

Mil Mi-24 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

cant we buy their parts from Afghanistan or say China/US etc.....just like we buy the engines for our Jf-17's from the russians through China 

cobras reach an altitude of abt 3.5km these mi-24's reach 4.9km


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## Imran Khan

khanboy007 said:


> according to the WIKI it says we operate them
> 
> Mil Mi-24 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> and we are missing in the former operators
> 
> Mil Mi-24 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> cant we buy their parts from Afghanistan or say China/US etc.....just like we buy the engines for our Jf-17's from the russians through China
> 
> cobras reach an altitude of abt 3.5km these mi-24's reach 4.9km


bhai hum farsi bol rahy hain ?


we got 6 used Mi-24 which afghan pilots bring here sold 1 to china one UK one unkown 2 were scraped and one was used few sorities for just joy ride type test and this dead horse is in pic . what you wanna restore ? 

this ?

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## airmarshal

Imran Khan said:


>



No offense meant but quite an ugly camouflage.


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## khanboy007

Imran Khan said:


> bhai hum farsi bol rahy hain ?
> 
> 
> we got 6 used Mi-24 which afghan pilots bring here sold 1 to china one UK one unkown 2 were scraped and one was used few sorities for just joy ride type test and this dead horse is in pic . what you wanna restore ?
> 
> this ?




you are right (as far as the pics are concerned).....but im not talking about the crappy ones.....im talking about the one's in good nick...like say we lose some cobras...so bring these mi24's in to replace it...


but I think as they are in 2's and 3's we can get some parts and substitute them for the cobras that smash into the ground  (just a thought) 

peace


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## Imran Khan

airmarshal said:


> No offense meant but quite an ugly camouflage.


 these MI-14PGs are working on fire fighting sir not miss world contests

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## airmarshal

Donatello said:


> The Cobra Gunships are being overhauled at Kamra, seems like the USA is at it's dirty tricks again. Can anyone say anything about what is going on?
> 
> Are the Cobras going to be what F-16s were in 1990s?



Because of its two blades in main rotor, Cobra is an extremely noisy platform. Since its old too, they need a lot of maintenance. Pakistan does need better more modern helicopters. Question is from where and how?


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## Imran Khan

khanboy007 said:


> you are right (as far as the pics are concerned).....but im not talking about the crappy ones.....im talking about the one's in good nick...like say we lose some cobras...so bring these mi24's in to replace it...
> 
> anyways....I guess restoring them (as they are in 2's and 3's) wont be worthy


 one only standing on jacks since 25 years  only one standing in sun shine rain hot cold dust all time in open air . can russians start its engine only ? i don't think so . forget please now lets move to something better like T-139?

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## khanboy007

Imran Khan said:


> one only standing on jacks since 25 years  only one standing in sun shine rain hot cold dust all time in open air . can russians start its engine only ? i don't think so . forget please now lets move to something better like T-139?



 no I think im done , btw Thanks for the healthy discussion

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## Imran Khan

khanboy007 said:


> no I think im done , btw Thanks for the healthy discussion


you always welcome lets hope some thing brand new from east or west of pakistan . they know well what they need bro.

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## nomi007



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## razgriz19

airmarshal said:


> Because of its two blades in main rotor, Cobra is an extremely noisy platform. Since its old too, they need a lot of maintenance. Pakistan does need better more modern helicopters. Question is from where and how?



did you know two blades also makes it one of the safest helicopter?
And its not noisy, its the sound of a real "chopper" like the Huey


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## Inception-06

airmarshal said:


> No offense meant but quite an ugly camouflage.



since when and where we did get the Mi-14 ( Sovietanti-submarinehelicopter) ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Zephyrus

Imran Khan said:


>


 That is an Mi-14 isn't it?
when did we operate them?
where were they stationed?


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## Imran Khan

Subxer0 said:


> That is an Mi-14 isn't it?
> when did we operate them?
> where were they stationed?


yes we got few for pak army fire fighting operations 

another image


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## hassan1



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## Zephyrus

Imran Khan said:


> yes we got few for pak army fire fighting operations
> 
> another image


sorry to bother you but the first image was in russia am i right?
and none of them have rotors so are they flight-worthy?


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## Imran Khan

Subxer0 said:


> sorry to bother you but the first image was in russia am i right?
> and none of them have rotors so are they flight-worthy?


why should they have routers sir ? pics are from Ukraine


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## nomi007



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## HAIDER



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## HAIDER



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## razgriz19




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## fatman17

only 2 Mi-14 were purchased for fire fighting purposes

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## DESERT FIGHTER

HAIDER said:


>



This is from Afghanistan.... NATO troops vs ANA.


>




Thanks for posting my post ... although you missed one:

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## HAIDER

Cobra is literally falling a part.


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## trident2010

Choppers needs some paint job.


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## nomi007

Aircraft Details
* Aircraft:* PZL Mi-2
* Manufacturer:* WSK PZL-Świdnik S.A.
* Registration:* AP-BFZ
* CN:* 54 10032 126
* Operator:* Sierra Aviation Ltd
Photo Details
* Date:* 29Dec2007
* Location:* Karachi (OPKC / KHI)
* Country:* Pakistan
Photographer
*Muhammad Ahmed Faruqui*



trident2010 said:


> Choppers needs some paint job.


yp right


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## RAMPAGE

trident2010 said:


> Choppers needs some paint job.


They'll be replaced very soon by Locally built T-129s or WZ-10's !!!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Posted before?


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## trident2010

RAMPAGE said:


> They'll be replaced very soon by Locally built T-129s or WZ-10's !!!



No harm in keep using them if they are air worthy.


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## Gentelman

trident2010 said:


> No harm in keep using them if they are air worthy.


no they ain't worthy flying.
We even don't have spares for Cobras…
We hope to replace them soon most probably with Turkish or Chinese ones.
US don't seems interested in replacing PA aging attack helos fleet…


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## trident2010

Gentelman said:


> no they ain't worthy flying.
> We even don't have spares for Cobras…
> We hope to replace them soon most probably with Turkish or Chinese ones.
> US don't seems interested in replacing PA aging attack helos fleet…



Pakistan can get upgrades through FMS agreement with US.


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## Jango

trident2010 said:


> Choppers needs some paint job.



They are being used VERY heavily in the conflict in FATA. A lot of flight cycles for these choppers hence the downtrodden look. No time for a new paint job...


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## trident2010

nuclearpak said:


> They are being used VERY heavily in the conflict in FATA. A lot of flight cycles for these choppers hence the downtrodden look. No time for a new paint job...



Fair enough. If they are doing their job properly then looks are unimportant.


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## Armstrong

nuclearpak said:


> They are being used VERY heavily in the conflict in FATA. A lot of flight cycles for these choppers hence the downtrodden look. No time for a new paint job...



I dunno why we don't set aside $100 million or something & build a light utility helicopter ourselves like the Hueys or the Dhruvs which can be armed for a Light Attack Role as well - I don't care even if we buy some of the needed blue prints of the Black Market or ask China to help us once more but surely we should've thought about something like this 4-5 years ago & I can't imagine why it would impossibly difficult to either finance that kind of money or to build a light utility helo ?


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## Rashid Mahmood

The Cobra's fly in these conditions, you don't expect them to be showroom condition always...they are war machines not display choppers..


















Look at a US Army Cobra






US Marines..

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## khanboy007

Guys look what I found 

its a MiG-19S and apparently the description says in one of the pics that its an ex-Czechoslovak AF aircraft wearing fake PAF colours and Its original tactical number is 0316.

is this like those Mi-24 hinds which were defected and given away ???? @Imran Khan 

*but the location says : Off-Airport - Cerbaiola , Italy*

here are some pics:

Photo credits : Piotr Biskupski

Photos: Aero S-105 (MiG-19S) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net






-------------------------------------------------

Photo Credits : Jiri Zedka

Photos: Aero S-105 (MiG-19S) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net






any more info on them would help

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## nomi007

khanboy007 said:


> Guys look what I found
> 
> its a MiG-19S and apparently the description says in one of the pics that its an ex-Czechoslovak AF aircraft wearing fake PAF colours and Its original tactical number is 0316.
> 
> is this like those Mi-24 hinds which were defected and given away ???? @Imran Khan
> 
> *but the location says : Off-Airport - Cerbaiola , Italy*
> 
> here are some pics:
> 
> Photo credits : Piotr Biskupski
> 
> Photos: Aero S-105 (MiG-19S) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> Photo Credits : Jiri Zedka
> 
> Photos: Aero S-105 (MiG-19S) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> any more info on them would help


i already posted these images at 
*Mirage, F-7PG and other combat aircrafts*


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## Gentelman

trident2010 said:


> Pakistan can get upgrades through FMS agreement with US.


US isn't even providing spares for those helos and their airframe is turning into scrap


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## FunkyGen

Armstrong said:


> I dunno why we don't set aside $100 million or something & build a light utility helicopter ourselves like the Hueys or the Dhruvs which can be armed for a Light Attack Role as well - I don't care even if we buy some of the needed blue prints of the Black Market or ask China to help us once more but surely we should've thought about something like this 4-5 years ago & I can't imagine why it would impossibly difficult to either finance that kind of money or to build a light utility helo ?




Sweet dreams lol 
It's ALL about money dear, we have thousands of scientists and technical staff to copy stuff at least, leave the R&D aside.



Rashid Mahmood said:


> The Cobra's fly in these conditions, you don't expect them to be showroom condition always...they are war machines not display choppers..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at a US Army Cobra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US Marines..




But still, they gotta look sexeh ya know

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## fatman17

Gentelman said:


> US isn't even providing spares for those helos and their airframe is turning into scrap


 
spares are coming from turkey and jordan. no problem here. US is only



Gentelman said:


> US isn't even providing spares for those helos and their airframe is turning into scrap


 
spares are coming from turkey and jordan. no problem here. US is only supplying ammo for the chain gun.


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## FunkyGen

fatman17 said:


> US is only supplying ammo for the chain gun.



Ammo? Where is POF?

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## Imran Khan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Posted before?
> View attachment 13456


 pheeki purani foto

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## Gentelman

FunkyGen said:


> Ammo? Where is POF?


POF doesn't deals with ammo for Chain guns of attack helos……:p


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## Imran Khan

Gentelman said:


> POF doesn't deals with ammo for Chain guns of attack helos……:p


not 7.62 mm sir but 40 mm automatic _grenade launcher ammo _

_




_

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## FunkyGen

Imran Khan said:


> not 7.62 mm sir but 40 mm automatic grenade launcher ammo







Oh.... i get it now, but still these grenades are no rocket science. I mean they could be manufactured if "neek neati" was there.

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## Imran Khan

FunkyGen said:


> Oh.... i get it now, but still these grenades are no rocket science. I mean they could be manufactured if "neek neati" was there.


 man we are getting out of cobras why waste money on it ? please note abut we are using 20mm x 180mm phalanx ammunition POF MADE for M197 3-barreled Gatling cannon ok 


Pakistan Ordnance Factories





these you can see extreame right of POF products image too

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## FunkyGen

Okay so, we're not making grenade projectiles but advanced bullets, but what if our future helicopter needs a grenade launcher for some reason? Anyways, aren't these grenades also used at infantry level.....? (i mean as extension of guns)



Imran Khan said:


> man we are getting out of cobras why waste money on it ?



I think we should waste money on it so that soldiers at infantry level can be equipped with these grenades as they are beneficial for both conventional warfare and anti-insurgent purposes (please correct me if i'm wrong)


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## nomi007

These photos represent first ever flights from Dhamial to Shinkiari, Patan, Chilas, Gilgit, Hunza, Passu, Gulmit and to Khunjrab from September 13-27, 1966




We Flew Oh-13's upto altitudes of approx 16,000 Feet, we were part of 3 Squadron under CO, LT Col NUK Babar. The mission was to recce the area for future locations for heli-pads for operations with FWO for construction of KKH highway as roads to this area didn't exist.

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## nomi007

Pilots were: Col. Babar, Maj. Awan, Maj. Naeem, Maj. Zia, Maj. Latif, Capt Siraj, Capt. MK Sagheer
*






*

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## Gentelman

Imran Khan said:


> not 7.62 mm sir but 40 mm automatic _grenade launcher ammo _
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> _


Generade launchers are not used from chain guns however!


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## Imran Khan

Gentelman said:


> Generade launchers are not used from chain guns however!


who said so >?????????????


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## Gentelman

Imran Khan said:


> who said so >?????????????


Molana Usama Shahzad


----------



## Blackpearl

Gentelman said:


> Generade launchers are not used from chain guns however!



Agree, Cobra helos of Pak Army have 20 mm cannon, rockets and TOW missiles, Grenade Launchers were there with Veitnam era models namely AH-1G, AH-1Q, and AH-1P models, Pakistan has AH-1F models. 
20 mm ammunition for Cobra Gatling gun is not manufactured by POF, as these rounds are HE (High Explosive), but for CIWS, (20 mm Gatling) on Navy Ships they are made by POF


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## Nishan_101

Blackpearl said:


> Agree, Cobra helos of Pak Army have 20 mm cannon, rockets and TOW missiles, Grenade Launchers were there with Veitnam era models namely AH-1G, AH-1Q, and AH-1P models, Pakistan has AH-1F models.
> 20 mm ammunition for Cobra Gatling gun is not manufactured by POF, as these rounds are HE (High Explosive), but for CIWS, (20 mm Gatling) on Navy Ships they are made by POF



Though it was great idea for PAA to gain AH-1s from countries that were operating in 2001 at cheaper cost along with spares from these countries and also from USA and upgrade with US permission with EU electronics at PAC facility Kamra. I am sure then PAA would have at least 70+ Cobras which can be deployed along the border with India and also few in coastal regions.


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## Gentelman

Nishan_101 said:


> Though it was great idea for PAA to gain AH-1s from countries that were operating in 2001 at cheaper cost along with spares from these countries and also from USA and upgrade with US permission with EU electronics at PAC facility Kamra. I am sure then PAA would have at least 70+ Cobras which can be deployed along the border with India and also few in coastal regions.


US zindabad……… 
Chordey un ki jan bhai.
They even don't feel comfortable in providing us with latest hell fire missile……
US isn't trust worthy and PA for their basic communication system also should look towards some other country…

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## Gentelman

Imran Khan said:


> who said so >?????????????


#1631
at least in case of PA cobras they ain't …
tukka lg gia


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## Nishan_101

Gentelman said:


> US zindabad………
> Chordey un ki jan bhai.
> They even don't feel comfortable in providing us with latest hell fire missile……
> US isn't trust worthy and PA for their basic communication system also should look towards some other country…



But now its time for JV with China on rotary as well.


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## Gentelman

Nishan_101 said:


> But now its time for JV with China on rotary as well.


kakka Cheeny,Gas,petrol,Atta to laa dey mgy 2,2 kilo/liter……
bra masla hoo raha hai aj kl……


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## Rashid Mahmood

Army Cobra's..

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## Mir Shahzain

*ISLAMABAD: France will provide Tiger combat helicopters and military equipment to Pakistan to enhance its capacity to fight terrorism.*
This was stated by Admiral Edouard Guillaud, Military Personal Staff Adviser to French President, during a series of meetings he held here on Thursday with top political and military leaders, including President Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Gen Tariq Majid and Chief of the Army Staff Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani. 

Official sources said that helicopters to be provided by France would be equipped with ground-to-ground missiles with semi-active laser seekers with a range of over 8km.

The multi-role helicopters have modern avionics and radars and can be equipped with anti-tank missiles. 
Admiral Guillaud commended Pakistan’s determination and resolute action to clear its soil of terrorists and eliminate extremism. 

An official of the French embassy said the visit of the delegation led by Admiral Guillaud was a follow-up to French visits by President Asif Ali Zardari and Army Chief Gen Kayani. 

‘The fight against terrorism is a key matter of concern for the international community. Within the framework of our common goal to fight terrorism, this visit aims at strengthening our bilateral cooperation in the field of defence and security,’ he said.

He said France’s objective was to offer political and military cooperation and support to Pakistani authorities and strengthen their fight against terrorism and extremism. 

‘France wishes to contribute to regional security and stability through reinforced dialogue on these matters.’

During the delegation’s meeting with President Zardari, the two sides decided to extend ties, especially in the field of defence, and the use of civilian nuclear technology for peaceful purposes. 

President’s spokesman Farhatullah Babar said that matters relating to Pak-France cooperation in different areas, the Friends of Pakistan initiative, rehabilitation of internally-displaced people and fight against militants were discussed at the meeting. 

During his meeting with the delegation, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani called for a roadmap for pragmatic cooperation in the field of civil nuclear energy. 

He proposed establishment of a working group to work out a plan for nuclear cooperation. 
Referring to the army operation against militants in Malakand division and tribal areas, the prime minister urged France and other countries to support Pakistan by providing military equipment and assistance to effectively deal with terrorists. 

The prime minister warned against the possibility of militants crossing over into the Pakistani territory, particularly in Balochistan, in the wake of enhanced deployment of US and Nato forces in Afghanistan. 

The prime minister thanked France for the assistance it pledged at the Democratic Friends of Pakistan meeting in Tokyo for the displaced people of NWFP and said that Pakistan was looking forward to the visit of President Sarkozy when frameworks on defence and security and counter-terrorism and on economic and energy cooperation would be signed. 

Admiral Guillaud said he hoped the two sides would make progress in the field of trade and economy and in civilian nuclear energy cooperation during visit of French Secretary of State for Foreign Trades to Pakistan on July 20. 

Admiral Guillaud also called on Gen Tariq Majid, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC), at the Joint Staff Headquarters. Both leaders exchanged views on regional situation and discussed possible areas of expansion of defence and security cooperation. 

Gen Majid thanked the government of France for its political support to Pakistan, approval of 12 million euros as initial humanitarian aid for displaced people of Swat and affirmation of assistance for capacity building of Pakistan forces. 

Army Chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani held separate meetings at the General Headquarters with Admiral Guillaud and Gen Stanley McChrystal, Commander of International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), in Afghanistan.

@Imran Khan : Brother today I was studying this above pasted article of DAWN News 2009, what about this deal why Pakistan is not interested or problems in this way ????


----------



## Imran Khan

Mir Shahzain said:


> *ISLAMABAD: France will provide Tiger combat helicopters and military equipment to Pakistan to enhance its capacity to fight terrorism.*
> This was stated by Admiral Edouard Guillaud, Military Personal Staff Adviser to French President, during a series of meetings he held here on Thursday with top political and military leaders, including President Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Gen Tariq Majid and Chief of the Army Staff Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.
> 
> Official sources said that helicopters to be provided by France would be equipped with ground-to-ground missiles with semi-active laser seekers with a range of over 8km.
> 
> The multi-role helicopters have modern avionics and radars and can be equipped with anti-tank missiles.
> Admiral Guillaud commended Pakistan’s determination and resolute action to clear its soil of terrorists and eliminate extremism.
> 
> An official of the French embassy said the visit of the delegation led by Admiral Guillaud was a follow-up to French visits by President Asif Ali Zardari and Army Chief Gen Kayani.
> 
> ‘The fight against terrorism is a key matter of concern for the international community. Within the framework of our common goal to fight terrorism, this visit aims at strengthening our bilateral cooperation in the field of defence and security,’ he said.
> 
> He said France’s objective was to offer political and military cooperation and support to Pakistani authorities and strengthen their fight against terrorism and extremism.
> 
> ‘France wishes to contribute to regional security and stability through reinforced dialogue on these matters.’
> 
> During the delegation’s meeting with President Zardari, the two sides decided to extend ties, especially in the field of defence, and the use of civilian nuclear technology for peaceful purposes.
> 
> President’s spokesman Farhatullah Babar said that matters relating to Pak-France cooperation in different areas, the Friends of Pakistan initiative, rehabilitation of internally-displaced people and fight against militants were discussed at the meeting.
> 
> During his meeting with the delegation, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani called for a roadmap for pragmatic cooperation in the field of civil nuclear energy.
> 
> He proposed establishment of a working group to work out a plan for nuclear cooperation.
> Referring to the army operation against militants in Malakand division and tribal areas, the prime minister urged France and other countries to support Pakistan by providing military equipment and assistance to effectively deal with terrorists.
> 
> The prime minister warned against the possibility of militants crossing over into the Pakistani territory, particularly in Balochistan, in the wake of enhanced deployment of US and Nato forces in Afghanistan.
> 
> The prime minister thanked France for the assistance it pledged at the Democratic Friends of Pakistan meeting in Tokyo for the displaced people of NWFP and said that Pakistan was looking forward to the visit of President Sarkozy when frameworks on defence and security and counter-terrorism and on economic and energy cooperation would be signed.
> 
> Admiral Guillaud said he hoped the two sides would make progress in the field of trade and economy and in civilian nuclear energy cooperation during visit of French Secretary of State for Foreign Trades to Pakistan on July 20.
> 
> Admiral Guillaud also called on Gen Tariq Majid, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC), at the Joint Staff Headquarters. Both leaders exchanged views on regional situation and discussed possible areas of expansion of defence and security cooperation.
> 
> Gen Majid thanked the government of France for its political support to Pakistan, approval of 12 million euros as initial humanitarian aid for displaced people of Swat and affirmation of assistance for capacity building of Pakistan forces.
> 
> Army Chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani held separate meetings at the General Headquarters with Admiral Guillaud and Gen Stanley McChrystal, Commander of International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), in Afghanistan.
> 
> @Imran Khan : Brother today I was studying this above pasted article of DAWN News 2009, what about this deal why Pakistan is not interested or problems in this way ????


after they got chance of MMRCA deal they ignored us in 200-09 they were asking each tiger some 30mn$ each flyaway cost so what you think we sould pay it ?. letter on we got AS-550 light armed choppers from them


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## nomi007

with out any advance attack helo
attack on north-waziristan is useless


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## Nishan_101

Mir Shahzain said:


> *ISLAMABAD: France will provide Tiger combat helicopters and military equipment to Pakistan to enhance its capacity to fight terrorism.*
> This was stated by Admiral Edouard Guillaud, Military Personal Staff Adviser to French President, during a series of meetings he held here on Thursday with top political and military leaders, including President Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Gen Tariq Majid and Chief of the Army Staff Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.
> 
> Official sources said that helicopters to be provided by France would be equipped with ground-to-ground missiles with semi-active laser seekers with a range of over 8km.
> 
> The multi-role helicopters have modern avionics and radars and can be equipped with anti-tank missiles.
> Admiral Guillaud commended Pakistan’s determination and resolute action to clear its soil of terrorists and eliminate extremism.
> 
> An official of the French embassy said the visit of the delegation led by Admiral Guillaud was a follow-up to French visits by President Asif Ali Zardari and Army Chief Gen Kayani.
> 
> ‘The fight against terrorism is a key matter of concern for the international community. Within the framework of our common goal to fight terrorism, this visit aims at strengthening our bilateral cooperation in the field of defence and security,’ he said.
> 
> He said France’s objective was to offer political and military cooperation and support to Pakistani authorities and strengthen their fight against terrorism and extremism.
> 
> ‘France wishes to contribute to regional security and stability through reinforced dialogue on these matters.’
> 
> During the delegation’s meeting with President Zardari, the two sides decided to extend ties, especially in the field of defence, and the use of civilian nuclear technology for peaceful purposes.
> 
> President’s spokesman Farhatullah Babar said that matters relating to Pak-France cooperation in different areas, the Friends of Pakistan initiative, rehabilitation of internally-displaced people and fight against militants were discussed at the meeting.
> 
> During his meeting with the delegation, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani called for a roadmap for pragmatic cooperation in the field of civil nuclear energy.
> 
> He proposed establishment of a working group to work out a plan for nuclear cooperation.
> Referring to the army operation against militants in Malakand division and tribal areas, the prime minister urged France and other countries to support Pakistan by providing military equipment and assistance to effectively deal with terrorists.
> 
> The prime minister warned against the possibility of militants crossing over into the Pakistani territory, particularly in Balochistan, in the wake of enhanced deployment of US and Nato forces in Afghanistan.
> 
> The prime minister thanked France for the assistance it pledged at the Democratic Friends of Pakistan meeting in Tokyo for the displaced people of NWFP and said that Pakistan was looking forward to the visit of President Sarkozy when frameworks on defence and security and counter-terrorism and on economic and energy cooperation would be signed.
> 
> Admiral Guillaud said he hoped the two sides would make progress in the field of trade and economy and in civilian nuclear energy cooperation during visit of French Secretary of State for Foreign Trades to Pakistan on July 20.
> 
> Admiral Guillaud also called on Gen Tariq Majid, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC), at the Joint Staff Headquarters. Both leaders exchanged views on regional situation and discussed possible areas of expansion of defence and security cooperation.
> 
> Gen Majid thanked the government of France for its political support to Pakistan, approval of 12 million euros as initial humanitarian aid for displaced people of Swat and affirmation of assistance for capacity building of Pakistan forces.
> 
> Army Chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani held separate meetings at the General Headquarters with Admiral Guillaud and Gen Stanley McChrystal, Commander of International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), in Afghanistan.
> 
> @Imran Khan : Brother today I was studying this above pasted article of DAWN News 2009, what about this deal why Pakistan is not interested or problems in this way ????



Really! I am thinking now what PAA needs. Once they like Z-10s, then ATAK and now Tiger.... I can't say any future of the force....

Pakistan Zindabad.


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## Imran Khan

Nishan_101 said:


> Really! I am thinking now what PAA needs. Once they like Z-10s, then ATAK and now Tiger.... I can't say any future of the force....
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad.


 oldnews bhai jaan e even send crew for tests too if you remember

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## Nishan_101

But now the condition of Military is not like which we all think of.


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## khanboy007

Man sorry for being biased but, any day i'd say russian attack helo's are the best.......too bad we cant get our hands on them

Mi-24 hind in the movie Rambo III






here its in the background






my other favorite is the Ka-50 kamov






the altitude their choppers offer is exactly what we need in our operations !!!!!


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## Imran Khan

bakwaas russin tech is far behind then US west


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## khanboy007

Imran Khan said:


> bakwaas russin tech is far behind then US west



ok, then an example please, like how do you compare (factors to evaluate)
I was speaking in terms of power here, I like their engines more


----------



## Jango

khanboy007 said:


> Mi-24 hind in the movie Rambo III



Actually, that isn't a Mi-24 Hind, it is actually a Pakistani Puma which was rented by the moviemakers and modified with some pylons.

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## khanboy007

nuclearpak said:


> Actually, that isn't a Mi-24 Hind, it is actually a Pakistani Puma which was rented by the moviemakers and modified with some pylons.



good to her that once our country was a celebrity too  

makes me wanna cry an ocean !!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the post


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## Darth Vader

@khanboy007 


My Friend this is Mrk 3 of Mi 24 hind

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## fatman17

behave ourselves and stick to the cobras.!!!

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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> Actually, that isn't a Mi-24 Hind, it is actually a Pakistani Puma which was rented by the moviemakers and modified with some pylons.


Civillian US Puma..from this firm 
PHI, Inc - The Total Helicopter Company.. and lets not encourage the pointless picture posting frenzy.. otherwise our senior(cough! cough!) members will go on their usual spree.


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## Bratva

It's interesting to see N.Waziristan operation lingering and visit of Sartaj Aziz to US. Perhaps a request put forward to speed up the process of delivering AH-1Z. Our cobra's are short legged. We need helo's in N.wazistan that carry more ammo. Cobra's with 4 TOW's or 30-32 Unguided missiles plus a turret which it has to use by hovering to a 1000 meter height exposing it self to ground fire would be a problem for ground forces who would need constant Air support.

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## Jango

Oscar said:


> Civillian US Puma..from this firm
> PHI, Inc - The Total Helicopter Company..



Don't know about this firm, but I got my info from the guy who was supposedly 'liaising' with the production team (Aviation).



> and lets not encourage the pointless picture posting frenzy.. otherwise our senior(cough! cough!) members will go on their usual spree.



100% agree.


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> It's interesting to see N.Waziristan operation lingering and visit of Sartaj Aziz to US. Perhaps a request put forward to speed up the process of delivering AH-1Z. Our cobra's are short legged. We need helo's in N.wazistan that carry more ammo. Cobra's with 4 TOW's or 30-32 Unguided missiles plus a turret which it has to use by hovering to a 1000 meter height exposing it self to ground fire would be a problem for ground forces who would need constant Air support.


No AH-1Z.. the Marine Corps order takes priority. Just additional spares and airframes from EDA.

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## khanboy007

Darth Vader said:


> @khanboy007
> 
> 
> My Friend this is Mrk 3 of Mi 24 hind




I'M SPEECHLESS 

*THE BEAUTY IS PROFOUND !!!!!!!!!!*


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## Rashid Mahmood

A Cobra with a Puma....

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## Rashid Mahmood



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## Mir Shahzain

@Imran Khan Brother what is this ???? Pakistan has capability to manufacture F7, F8, Y-12, FT-6 and *COBRA Helicopters* !!!! it is in all today's newspapers and I've pasted above from Jang Newspaper


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## The Deterrent



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## Imran Khan

Mir Shahzain said:


> View attachment 14635
> 
> 
> @Imran Khan Brother what is this ???? Pakistan has capability to manufacture F7, F8, Y-12, FT-6 and *COBRA Helicopters* !!!! it is in all today's newspapers and I've pasted above from Jang Newspaper


you can not found more BS media then pak media . f-7 getting out f-8? lolz its K-8 y-12 no way and FT-6 ? all are parked in grave yards of PAF and cobras ? he lost his brain . utter scrap writer editor . there is not talha tank but its talha APC

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## Armstrong

Imran Khan said:


> you can not found more BS media then pak media . f-7 getting out f-8? lolz its K-8 y-12 no way and FT-6 ? all are parked in grave yards of PAF and cobras ? he lost his brain . utter scrap writer editor . there is not talha tank but its talha APC



Waisee Imran Bhai koiii Black Market wagheraa peiii Helicopter (perhaps 50s ya 60s keii model) bananeiii keh plans nahin milteiii jinnn ko deekh kar hummm Light Helicopter hii banaa leiiin ?

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## Imran Khan

Armstrong said:


> Waisee Imran Bhai koiii Black Market wagheraa peiii Helicopter (perhaps 50s ya 60s keii model) bananeiii keh plans nahin milteiii jinnn ko deekh kar hummm Light Helicopter hii banaa leiiin ?


kiyoon kya takleef hai ? we already got 10 brand new light combat helicopters yaar we need some 40-50 brand new heavy attack holes for 40-50 hom need assembly lines ? seriusly UK - australia - canada and many more which use many times more in numbers then pakistan don't have production lines of holes. her cheez banana zaroori nhi hoti janab .

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## Jango

AhaseebA said:


> View attachment 14641



Where was this picture taken?


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## The Deterrent

nuclearpak said:


> Where was this picture taken?


Undisclosed location .

J/K, near Islamabad.


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## Jango

AhaseebA said:


> Undisclosed location .
> 
> J/K, near Islamabad.



Hmm...so this means that the trials have been done and thw hiccups in engine performance have been solved.


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## imiakhtar

Imran Khan said:


> seriusly UK



Seriously, you should do your research.

AgustaWestland has an assembly and flight line in Yeovil UK.


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## nomi007

Chinese z-11 with anti-tank missile launcher 
it is variant Eurocopter AS350 variant 
good for us

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## Sulyman

Excellent project


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## Imran Khan

imiakhtar said:


> Seriously, you should do your research.
> 
> AgustaWestland has an assembly and flight line in Yeovil UK.


ok ignore my argument but they are not involved in R&D of choppers and even if they have fleet of AW we can't afford


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 14743
> 
> Chinese z-11 with anti-tank missile launcher
> it is variant Eurocopter AS350 variant
> good for us


 
we dont need a light armed helo. we need as a minimum what the super-cobra can deliver.

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## imiakhtar

Imran Khan said:


> they are not involved in R&D of choppers



Yes they are.

AgustaWestland receives development funds from the British govt for R+D activities in the UK as do many aerospace companies (airbus and rolls-royce get the most). 

Most of is received under the guise of RLI or Repayable Launch Investments. 

Those of you who follow world trade/economics will probably have heard of the WTO trade dispute between the EU and US (airbus and boeing) where these funds are referred to as "launch aid".

These numbers from a FOI I made aren't up to date, but it does give you an idea as to how much the British Govt puts into the aerospace industry. The total is likely to be approaching £4 billion. Of course, it has benefits for both the companies and countries as industry gets access to funds whilst the country gets the technology/expertise/royalty payments on sold products:


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## Informant

imiakhtar said:


> Snip



Man you still use XP with that default color scheme on top of that Internet Explorer? Is this 2005?

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## Neptune

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 14743
> 
> Chinese z-11 with anti-tank missile launcher
> it is variant Eurocopter AS350 variant
> good for us



imm. is this an official variant or copy?


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## nomi007

Neptune said:


> imm. is this an official variant or copy?


official


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## Neptune

nomi007 said:


> official



couldn't find a source regarding it


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> we dont need a light armed helo. we need as a minimum what the super-cobra can deliver.



Cobras or Super Cobras are obsolete sir. Look how much shit we have to dig through to get the spares for them. At this stage any US equipment is a no-no.

European ones might be an option, but only if the contract is signed on Pakistan's terms : That no restriction on the use and upkeep of the assets, whether peace or war. 

Of course, no body buys attack choppers for peace.

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## nomi007

Neptune said:


> couldn't find a source regarding it


Changhe Z-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> *Cobras or Super Cobras are obsolete sir*. Look how much shit we have to dig through to get the spares for them. At this stage any US equipment is a no-no.
> 
> European ones might be an option, but only if the contract is signed on Pakistan's terms : That no restriction on the use and upkeep of the assets, whether peace or war.
> 
> Of course, no body buys attack choppers for peace.


 
if you say so.....


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## MathewHoggard

Beautiful helicopters are above I have seen. These are army helicopters...!!!


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## Khaqan Humayun




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## Dr. Strangelove

Khaqan Humayun said:


>



how this relates to this thread ?


----------



## Khaqan Humayun

wasm95 said:


> how this relates to this thread ?


It is about aviation 
this thing can be good for Pakistan.


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## zeeshanvita

Khaqan Humayun said:


> It is about aviation
> this thing can be good for Pakistan.


There are hundreds of other equipment as well, which are god for Pakistan but we cannot put all of them here. If you have read and understood the title of the thread well.. you might not have posted it here..


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## imiakhtar

Donatello said:


> Cobras or Super Cobras are obsolete sir. Look how much shit we have to dig through to get the spares for them.



Rotary aircraft are maintenance intensive due to their nature. You should have a look at the cost per flight hour of the Chinook or Apache - It'll give you a heart attack.


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## nomi007



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## Khaqan Humayun

nomi007 said:


>


*Which one is this Brother???*


----------



## Nishan_101

nomi007 said:


>



Panter or Z-9 were a better option.


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## nomi007

Khaqan Humayun said:


> *Which one is this Brother???*


its in azad kashmir


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## nomi007

Pakistan Army soldiers at UN mission!

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## nomi007



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## Jango

Was going through the AirBlue crash pics and saw this...

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


>


 
is this a civilian Z-9?


----------



## fatman17

Home » Helicopters » Pakistan Army » Naima Gul becomes first Female Pilot in Pakistan Army Aviation’s History
*Naima Gul becomes first Female Pilot in Pakistan Army Aviation’s History *
0 Helicopters, Pakistan Army 




 Twelve year old Naima Gul has become the first female pilot (honorary) of the 9th Squadron of the Pakistan Army Aviation by flying the Lama helicopter. She is a Thalassaemia patient and currently studies in the 4th grade. 
She had requested the Chief of the Army Staff in a letter and expressed her desire to become the first female pilot (honorary) of 9th squadron in Pakistan Army Aviation’s history.


 Naima Gul lives in the Mingora and her dream came true as the Chief of the Army Staff, Gen Ashfaq Pervez Kiyani formally directed the Pakistan Army Aviation Academy to grant her the wish of her life. 
Naima Gul said that she doesn’t know how long she will be able to fight her permanent illness but she said, “today is the dream day for me." She said that she will live for her country (Pakistan) and will die for it if required. She said that she is ready to serve her motherland in whatever capacity she is needed.
At this moment she also expressed her desire to start a foundation to help the poor patients who are suffering from the Thalassaemia by establishing Naima Gul Foundation which can offer free medication like disprol injection to them. She needs to take a disprol injection once a day for five days a week.
She was taken to a simulator room where she was briefed by the Pakistan Army Aviation’s instructor Major Zahid brief about the mission which she latter undertook. In this mock mission, she was to help rescue an injured soldier during her flight of 9.6 kilometers.
Later she was also briefed about operations of the 9th squadron in Pakistan Army Aviation. Commander Lt Gen Yasin Malik, Commander 11 Corps was also present at this moment. He said that we are here to fulfill the dream of courageous dream of the daughter of great Swat valley.
He said that her desire shows a clear recognition and respect of the people of Swat towards Pakistan's army which has fought against the terrorists in the area.
You might also like: 

Read more: Naima Gul becomes first Female Pilot in Pakistan Army Aviation’s History | Pakistan Military Review

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> is this a civilian Z-9?



This isn't a Z-9...this is a EC-130 owned by princely jets.

The one that Imran Khan traveled in in his election campaign.

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## nomi007

nuclearpak said:


> This isn't a Z-9...this is a EC-130 owned by princely jets.
> 
> The one that Imran Khan traveled in in his election campaign.


not ec-130 but 
*Eurocopter EC120 Colibri*
i wish paa also add these helos


----------



## Jango

nomi007 said:


> not ec-130 but
> *Eurocopter EC120 Colibri*
> i wish paa also add these helos



Nope, it is the EC-130 owned by Princely Jets.

I know this for a fact.

You can even check it by googling the registration number.


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## nomi007

EC-130


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## Jango

nomi007 said:


> EC-130








Eurocopter EC130 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Dr. Strangelove

nomi007 said:


> EC-130



they r talking about a chopper


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## fatman17

*HC-120 Colibri*



This light utility helicopter just entered the service with the Army Aviation in late 2005 for primary training. It is basically an EC-120 co-developed by China, France and Singapore in the mid-90s and manufactured by HAIC. Some specifications: max TO weight 1,715kg, max cruise speed 237km/hr, range 771km, hover ceiling 5,151m. It is powered by one Turbomeca Arrius 2F turboshaft engine rated at 335kW. The helicopter also uses composite materials extensively. Initial batch of 8 *HC-120*s were delivered to Army Aviation Training School by the end of 2005 (S/N LH908xx). Currently around 34 are in service. *HC-120* has replaced the aging SA-316 fleet to train new pilots for the Army Aviation.

_- Last Updated 8/13/09_
do we mean this?


----------



## Jango

fatman17 said:


> *HC-120 Colibri*
> 
> 
> 
> This light utility helicopter just entered the service with the Army Aviation in late 2005 for primary training. It is basically an EC-120 co-developed by China, France and Singapore in the mid-90s and manufactured by HAIC. Some specifications: max TO weight 1,715kg, max cruise speed 237km/hr, range 771km, hover ceiling 5,151m. It is powered by one Turbomeca Arrius 2F turboshaft engine rated at 335kW. The helicopter also uses composite materials extensively. Initial batch of 8 *HC-120*s were delivered to Army Aviation Training School by the end of 2005 (S/N LH908xx). Currently around 34 are in service. *HC-120* has replaced the aging SA-316 fleet to train new pilots for the Army Aviation.
> 
> _- Last Updated 8/13/09_
> do we mean this?



Uh do we really have these?

Never seen or heard of one in PAA service.


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Uh do we really have these?
> 
> Never seen or heard of one in PAA service.


 
in chinese service...


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## nomi007

hope paa will also use these type

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## nomi007



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## Jango

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 18740



BTW, the caption is wrong...this is an Mi-17.


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## Imran Khan

pakistani MI-14PG

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## Nishan_101

Imran Khan said:


> pakistani MI-14PG



Is Pakistan buying it?


----------



## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> Is Pakistan buying it?


 
already 2 examples for fire-fighting.

*KD-9/KD-10* (courtesy of _WLTK, Sharon, HF, BC_)



KD-9 and KD-10 (K/AKD9 and K/AKD10) are the new generation of ATGMs developed for Z-10 (KD-9 & 10) and Z-19 (KD-9) attack helicopters. Between them KD-9 is lighter and smaller while KD-10 is heavier and bigger. Up to 8 can be carried at a time. The missile appears in the same class of American AGM-114 _Hellfire_ but without the forward control fins. It also features a semi-active laser seeker believed to have been derived from the one used by Russian Krasnopol 152mm laser-guided projectile (CEP≤3m). Therefore the missile is not fire-and-forget. It has been speculated that an MMW seeker is being developed for KD-9/KD-10, coupled with the new mast mounted MMW radar being tested on Z-19. Recent images showed the KD-9 can also be fried from Z-9WA attack helicopter, Mi-17V5 transport helicopter and Wing Loong UCAV, suggesting it is gradually replacing the old KD-8 ATGM. The export version of KD-10 is dubbed BA-7. Some specifications (KD-10): length 1,775mm, diameter 170mm, weight 46kg, range 2,000-7,000m, armor penetration 1,400mm. _- Last Updated 2/26/14_


----------



## razgriz19



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## The Deterrent

Which variant is this?

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## Jango

AhaseebA said:


> Which variant is this?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 21469
> 
> View attachment 21471



DIdn't you post a few pics of another heavily modified Mi-17 before as well? The one with the yellow panels and all, also looking like an ECW version?

BTW, the radome on the nose is a weather radar...

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## The Deterrent

nuclearpak said:


> DIdn't you post a few pics of another heavily modified Mi-17 before as well? The one with the yellow panels and all, also looking like an ECW version?
> 
> BTW, the radome on the nose is a weather radar...



I PM'ed you those quite a while ago  . Its the same heli.

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## Jango

Pak Army Eurocopter Fennec shown at around 23 second mark.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=611942535550987

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## Nishan_101

Any PAA chances of getting some more Cobra's and upgrading it locally with US supplied Kits:
Turkey: 30
Modern equipment of the Turkish Land Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thailand: 7
Royal Thai Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Korea: 90
List of equipment of the Republic of Korea Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jordan: 25
Royal Jordanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Japan: 75
List of modern equipment of the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bahain: 22
Royal Bahraini Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Nishan_101

This makes a total of 249 or 250+ AH-1s operational world wide which PAA can easily get with US funding... Also then PAA can make a very huge fleet of Gun ship needed by Pakistan...


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## fatman17

PAA is now interested in the Super-Cobra AH-1Z.


----------



## Stealth

fatman17 said:


> PAA is now interested in the Super-Cobra AH-1Z.



What you think about Super Cobra numbers? How many PAA interested innn ??? 30 40 50 60 ??


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## Nishan_101

fatman17 said:


> PAA is now interested in the Super-Cobra AH-1Z.



Still they can sell it:
Turkey: 30
Modern equipment of the Turkish Land Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thailand: 7
Royal Thai Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jordan: 25
Royal Jordanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bahain: 22
Royal Bahraini Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*And they also:*

Korea: 90
List of equipment of the Republic of Korea Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Japan: 75
List of modern equipment of the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Stealth said:


> What you think about Super Cobra numbers? How many PAA interested innn ??? 30 40 50 60 ??



May all of the ex-US Marines which are about: 
Bell AH-1 SuperCobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I am sure it will be in 100s of them But US should try to offer PAK a buy back of AH-1s from its current operators which makes a total of 250+ and also Pak ones which can make it to 300 of them.
United States Marine Corps Aviation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(replacement by the Bell AH-1Z Viper anticipated, beginning in 2011)


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## khanboy007

fatman17 said:


> PAA is now interested in the Super-Cobra AH-1Z.



this is the dual engine variant of our current cobras ???

*well its better,* 

they should have opted this quite some time ago .







if its true then what about the deal with *turkey *????


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## fatman17

Stealth said:


> What you think about Super Cobra numbers? How many PAA interested innn ??? 30 40 50 60 ??


 
depending on FMS, 12 to 20.


----------



## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> PAA is now interested in the Super-Cobra AH-1Z.



If you don't mind me asking, is this recent news or is this from a few months ago?


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

fatman17 said:


> PAA is now interested in the Super-Cobra AH-1Z.


 so what about t-129 atak choppers now ?


----------



## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> If you don't mind me asking, is this recent news or is this from a few months ago?


 
this is old news before the collapse of US-PK relations. there was a US500m FMS allocated to the counter-insurgency enhancement fund for 12 AH-1Z's. then it went off the table but PK continues to seek FMS funds for them to replace the AH-1F's.
this is where the Turkish T-129 story suddenly cropped up. PK does not have the funds to invest in the turkish program (not in the near term at least) and now when relations with the US are on the 'thaw' (ref: C130 upgrade), the AH-1Z remains on PK wish list.


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## fatman17

NDMA Helos donated by the Swiss

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## fatman17



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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> this is old news before the collapse of US-PK relations. there was a US500m FMS allocated to the counter-insurgency enhancement fund for 12 AH-1Z's. then it went off the table but PK continues to seek FMS funds for them to replace the AH-1F's.
> this is where the Turkish T-129 story suddenly cropped up. PK does not have the funds to invest in the turkish program (not in the near term at least) and now when relations with the US are on the 'thaw' (ref: C130 upgrade), the AH-1Z remains on PK wish list.



It's a difficult decision either way. Although the T-129 deal did offer local assembly, the system still depends on an American turboshaft. Either way, neither the AH-1Z or T-129 offer a safe solution in terms of sanctions. If I were PAA, I'd pick up the AH-1Z for as cheap as possible, but for the long-term, work on a solution with a partner country. For example, the South African company ATE had an attack helicopter program (i.e. 'New Attack Helicopter') designed from the onset to give the developer partner helicopter manufacturing capabilities on top of a reasonably priced and capable system.

Private aviation group works on own attack-helicopter design

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## Nishan_101

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 23034
> 
> 
> NDMA Helos donated by the Swiss



Its better for PAA, PN and PAF to give away their helicopters of Aloutte II and III to NDMA or for UAV testing purpose...

Turkey: 30
Modern equipment of the Turkish Land Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thailand: 7
Royal Thai Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jordan: 25
Royal Jordanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bahain: 22
Royal Bahraini Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*And they also:*

Korea: 90
List of equipment of the Republic of Korea Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Japan: 75
List of modern equipment of the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Inception-06

Nishan_101 said:


> Its better for PAA, PN and PAF to give away their helicopters of Aloutte II and III to NDMA or for UAV testing purpose...
> 
> Turkey: 30
> Modern equipment of the Turkish Land Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Thailand: 7
> Royal Thai Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Jordan: 25
> Royal Jordanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Bahain: 22
> Royal Bahraini Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *And they also:*
> 
> Korea: 90
> List of equipment of the Republic of Korea Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Japan: 75
> List of modern equipment of the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



why you want always give away our weapons and equipment ?


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## Stealth

Pakistan should acquire atleast 40 of Super Cobra's along with Black Hawk used versions... for long term.. Pakistan Army really required...


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## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


> Pakistan should acquire atleast 40 of Super Cobra's along with Black Hawk used versions... for long term.. Pakistan Army really required...


AP USA ko gali dena band karo to baat aagy bardhy na

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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> It's a difficult decision either way. Although the T-129 deal did offer local assembly, the system still depends on an American turboshaft. Either way, neither the AH-1Z or T-129 offer a safe solution in terms of sanctions. If I were PAA, I'd pick up the AH-1Z for as cheap as possible, but for the long-term, work on a solution with a partner country. For example, the South African company ATE had an attack helicopter program (i.e. 'New Attack Helicopter') designed from the onset to give the developer partner helicopter manufacturing capabilities on top of a reasonably priced and capable system.
> 
> Private aviation group works on own attack-helicopter design


 
can i ask you please why PAA is not interested in the WZ-10. a large number are being inducted in the Chinese military. of course there has been a recent crash which could be a setback for this type. the engine has always been the main issue here.

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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> can i ask you please why PAA is not interested in the WZ-10. a large number are being inducted in the Chinese military. of course there has been a recent crash which could be a setback for this type. the engine has always been the main issue here.


I don't know anything for certain, but I think it's all political.

Pakistan doesn't have any money, so it can't buy anything, even from China (!). That said, China might be willing to cut Pakistan some help provided Pakistan stop helping the US (in Afghanistan) and India (by normalizing ties). That's not what Pakistan's doing, hence, no help, no WZ-10, no FC-20.

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## Zarvan

Stealth said:


> Pakistan should acquire atleast 40 of Super Cobra's along with Black Hawk used versions... for long term.. Pakistan Army really required...


Sir USA will not give them we need to go for Attack helicopters from Turkey and we can get them with TOT those are good attack helicopters and Turkey is also developing Missiles and rockets for them so we can get those and if not in really large numbers at least we can get 12 first than when money is available buy or produce more @Aeronaut


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## Windjammer

PAA Bell 412 and Mi-17 Helicopters over Blue Area on 2014 Pakistan Day Parade.

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## Windjammer

_PAA Cobra Gunships flying towards the parliament for the 2014 Pakistan Day Parade.
_

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## fatman17

PAA Early Days....L-19 Handing over...

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## fatman17

*The Highest Landing by an Alouette III in the World-August 1983*
July 17, 2012

*By Brig (R) Hashim Khan (47 PMA)*



Brig Hashim

On a sunny morning of 4 August 1983, a member of a Belgian expedition team came to the KKH Detachment at Gilgit and told us that a few days ago, one of their members fell and tumbled a few hundred feet while climbing Rakaposhi, and now he can’t stand up. They had brought him down till Camp 5 and after that he can’t be carried further down. He said Camp 5 was at 5,500 metres. I was the capt of Alouette III and Maj Azam (Later Maj Gen) was my co-pilot, on continuation training.

We took off for their Base Camp which was upstream of Jaglot Gah. After landing we were told that Camp 5 was at 6,000 metres. After calculations we realised that it was not possible to take the co-pilot and then take off from that altitude with the casualty. So I decided to leave Maj Azam at the Base Camp. To keep a further safety, I got some fuel drained, got the skis, seats, and rear sliding doors removed. All my calculations were for landing and take off from 6,000 metres.



Rakaposhi

I took off alone, and kept climbing till I came abreast Camp 5 and my altimeter read 6,500 metres, on standard atmospheric settings, which was 200 metres more than the permitted altitude for Alt III helicopter. Anyway, the chopper was handling fine, so I decided to go in. Since I had used the updraft for a quick climb, was already short on fuel, and the location of Camp was such that I had no choice but to make the approach in tail wind.

Just at the short finals, my fuel gauge warning light flickered for the first time. I touched down just at the edge of the mountain side, so as to keep some portion of my rotor disc in the strong updraft, and since there weren’t any skis, so I kept the helicopter light on wheels, and since there were no rear sliding doors, there was no problem when the other members of expedition loaded the casualty in the helicopter. At that time my altimeter was reading slightly more than 6,500 metres.

I took off backwards and when I was well clear of the mountain, I made a left pedal turn and shoved the cyclic forward to build up speed and utilise the advantage of translational lift. The helicopter responded beautifully and at no time I had to pull more than 1 collective. There was virtual jubilation at the Base Camp. On our return flight to Gilgit, the fuel gauge light had stayed glowing continuously for 14 minutes, and when we landed at Gilgit helipad, we had just one more minute of fuel to go.

Maj Azam broke the news to DC Gilgit, who in turn gave it to newspapers, and that’s when shit hit the fan. Just a couple of weeks earlier, Maj JJ (Javed Jehan) had picked a casualty from 14,000 feet in a Puma and he was given a warning by higher ups. I had landed the chopper at an altitude which was almost 1000 feet higher than the permissible altitude (service ceiling ). An Alt III has a service ceiling of 21,000 feet and I had landed at 22,000 feet. A C of I was ordered and I knew my goose is cooked. Meanwhile the rest of the expedition reached Gilgit. We requested them not to give the correct altitude of Camp 5. Our stand was that it was located at 20,500 feet which would be 500 feet lower than service ceiling. The C of I had already found me guilty of violating fourteen SOPs, and operating higher than the service ceiling would have been a big nail in my coffin. I was already selected for a course on Cobras in USA and any flight safety violation would have debarred me from the course for 200 hours or 1 year (such were the rules then).

The C of I was in the final stages of completion in Avn Dte, when the King of Belgium announced their highest peace time medal for bravery. When Gen Zia learnt about this, he reciprocated by telling Brig Trimzi to forget the C of I and send a citation instead. I got ” Order of Leopold” from Belgium, which the protocol demanded to be conferred by the King himself, but I couldn’t go to Belgium because of contingencies of service.

Since the previous record for highest landing by Alt III was 19,5000 feet, which was at the top of Mount Kilimanjaro, Tanzania, and I had landed at 22,000 feet (verified from the expedition), which was a new record for Alt III helicopter, so Aero Spatial also wanted to honour me, but again due to contingencies of service my availability was denied.

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## hkdas

fatman17 said:


> *The Highest Landing by an Alouette III in the World-August 1983*
> July 17, 2012
> 
> *By Brig (R) Hashim Khan (47 PMA)*
> 
> 
> 
> Brig Hashim
> 
> On a sunny morning of 4 August 1983, a member of a Belgian expedition team came to the KKH Detachment at Gilgit and told us that a few days ago, one of their members fell and tumbled a few hundred feet while climbing Rakaposhi, and now he can’t stand up. They had brought him down till Camp 5 and after that he can’t be carried further down. He said Camp 5 was at 5,500 metres. I was the capt of Alouette III and Maj Azam (Later Maj Gen) was my co-pilot, on continuation training.
> 
> We took off for their Base Camp which was upstream of Jaglot Gah. After landing we were told that Camp 5 was at 6,000 metres. After calculations we realised that it was not possible to take the co-pilot and then take off from that altitude with the casualty. So I decided to leave Maj Azam at the Base Camp. To keep a further safety, I got some fuel drained, got the skis, seats, and rear sliding doors removed. All my calculations were for landing and take off from 6,000 metres.
> 
> 
> 
> Rakaposhi
> 
> I took off alone, and kept climbing till I came abreast Camp 5 and my altimeter read 6,500 metres, on standard atmospheric settings, which was 200 metres more than the permitted altitude for Alt III helicopter. Anyway, the chopper was handling fine, so I decided to go in. Since I had used the updraft for a quick climb, was already short on fuel, and the location of Camp was such that I had no choice but to make the approach in tail wind.
> 
> Just at the short finals, my fuel gauge warning light flickered for the first time. I touched down just at the edge of the mountain side, so as to keep some portion of my rotor disc in the strong updraft, and since there weren’t any skis, so I kept the helicopter light on wheels, and since there were no rear sliding doors, there was no problem when the other members of expedition loaded the casualty in the helicopter. At that time my altimeter was reading slightly more than 6,500 metres.
> 
> I took off backwards and when I was well clear of the mountain, I made a left pedal turn and shoved the cyclic forward to build up speed and utilise the advantage of translational lift. The helicopter responded beautifully and at no time I had to pull more than 1 collective. There was virtual jubilation at the Base Camp. On our return flight to Gilgit, the fuel gauge light had stayed glowing continuously for 14 minutes, and when we landed at Gilgit helipad, we had just one more minute of fuel to go.
> 
> Maj Azam broke the news to DC Gilgit, who in turn gave it to newspapers, and that’s when shit hit the fan. Just a couple of weeks earlier, Maj JJ (Javed Jehan) had picked a casualty from 14,000 feet in a Puma and he was given a warning by higher ups. I had landed the chopper at an altitude which was almost 1000 feet higher than the permissible altitude (service ceiling ). An Alt III has a service ceiling of 21,000 feet and I had landed at 22,000 feet. A C of I was ordered and I knew my goose is cooked. Meanwhile the rest of the expedition reached Gilgit. We requested them not to give the correct altitude of Camp 5. Our stand was that it was located at 20,500 feet which would be 500 feet lower than service ceiling. The C of I had already found me guilty of violating fourteen SOPs, and operating higher than the service ceiling would have been a big nail in my coffin. I was already selected for a course on Cobras in USA and any flight safety violation would have debarred me from the course for 200 hours or 1 year (such were the rules then).
> 
> The C of I was in the final stages of completion in Avn Dte, when the King of Belgium announced their highest peace time medal for bravery. When Gen Zia learnt about this, he reciprocated by telling Brig Trimzi to forget the C of I and send a citation instead. I got ” Order of Leopold” from Belgium, which the protocol demanded to be conferred by the King himself, but I couldn’t go to Belgium because of contingencies of service.
> 
> Since the previous record for highest landing by Alt III was 19,5000 feet, which was at the top of Mount Kilimanjaro, Tanzania, and I had landed at 22,000 feet (verified from the expedition), which was a new record for Alt III helicopter, so Aero Spatial also wanted to honour me, but again due to contingencies of service my availability was denied.



today the world record for the Highest Landing by an Alouette III is at an altitude of 7621 meters on Sasser Kangri massif in Eastern Ladakh. Flown by Group Capt A S Butola and Squadron Leader S Sharma the chopper landed at the Sasser Kangri depression between main and south peak at an altitude of 7070, pressure altitude of 7670 meters and density altitude of 7670 meters.
IAF chopper makes world's highest landing in Ladakh
Indian AF breaks USAF record, page 1


other record by indian air force is:
23,240 ft on Kamet glacier in the Garhwal Himalaya on *02-11-2004*
ALOUETTE & LAMA
.
.
.
.
highest landing by any IAF helicopter is 27,500 feet/8.382km in the Siachen by HAL dhruv mk.3
Bangalore ALH pilots fly high - The Times of India


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## fatman17

hkdas said:


> today the world record for the Highest Landing by an Alouette III is at an altitude of 7621 meters on Sasser Kangri massif in Eastern Ladakh. Flown by Group Capt A S Butola and Squadron Leader S Sharma the chopper landed at the Sasser Kangri depression between main and south peak at an altitude of 7070, pressure altitude of 7670 meters and density altitude of 7670 meters.
> IAF chopper makes world's highest landing in Ladakh
> Indian AF breaks USAF record, page 1
> 
> 
> other record by indian air force is:
> 23,240 ft on Kamet glacier in the Garhwal Himalaya on *02-11-2004*
> ALOUETTE & LAMA
> .
> .
> .
> .
> highest landing by any IAF helicopter is 27,500 feet/8.382km in the Siachen by HAL dhruv mk.3
> Bangalore ALH pilots fly high - The Times of India


 
we're not starting a pissing contest are we?

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## hkdas

fatman17 said:


> we're not starting a pissing contest are we?


no buddy, i was just comparing the records set by two militates in the same region.....


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## nomi007

*راولپنڈی: قلات میں پاک فوج کے ہیلی کاپٹر نے ہنگامی لینڈنگ کی ہے تاہم ہیلی کاپٹر اور پائلٹ محفوظ ہیں۔ *

آئی ایس پی آر کی جانب سے جاری بیان کے مطابق آرمی ایوی ایشن کا ہیلی کاپٹر معمول کی پرواز پر تھا کہ فنی خرابی کے باعث اسے ہنگامی لینڈنگ کرنا پڑی، واقعے میں ہیلی کاپٹر کو کسی بھی قسم کا نقصان نہیں پہنچا جبکہ پائلٹ بھی محفوظ ہے۔

واضح رہے کہ بلوچستان کے کئی علاقے دہشتگردی کی لپیٹ میں ہیں اور امن کے قیام کے لئے سیکیورٹی فورسز اپنی ذمہ داریاں نبھا رہی ہیں۔


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## Jango

A PAA Mushak has crashed near Gujranwala...a Maj and Capt both have embraced martyrdom.

Supposedly a technical fault.


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## Jango

2 pilots martyred as Army trainer jet crashes in Gujranawala | PAKISTAN - geo.tv


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> 2 pilots martyred as Army trainer jet crashes in Gujranawala | PAKISTAN - geo.tv


 
God save us from our media

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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> Supposedly a technical fault.



its early to make any supposition my friend, it can be attributed to anything


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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> its early to make any supposition my friend, it can be attributed to anything



hence the word "supposedly"...just quoting the media here.


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## nomi007




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## nomi007

23rd march

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## nomi007

guess ?


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## Blackpearl

nomi007 said:


> guess ?



This is French SA315 Lama helicopter


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## nomi007

Blackpearl said:


> This is French SA315 Lama helicopter


ap ka jawab thek hoa
ap ko dia jata hai qmobile e490

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## nomi007

if dialog fail PAA will talk with talibans with this which are recently purchase

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## alibaz

When we got this, probably Australia and UAE were interested.


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## Nishan_101

nomi007 said:


> if dialog fail PAA will talk with talibans with this which are recently purchase



GIDS should be doing JV with Turkey.


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## nomi007

ex-paa



in 1971

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

nomi007 said:


> if dialog fail PAA will talk with talibans with this which are recently purchase


bro. you mean that Pakistan army has already have these Turkish Cirit missiles in their inventory ..!?


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## nomi007

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> bro. you mean that Pakistan army has already have these Turkish Cirit missiles in their inventory ..!?


most probably


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## fatman17



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## Fieldmarshal

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 25468



old pic
mi-8 n a puma


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## nomi007



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## fatman17



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## fatman17

Fieldmarshal said:


> old pic
> mi-8 n a puma


 my bad!




Siachin


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## nomi007

dhamial camp

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> dhamial camp



Jordanian cobras


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## Donatello

Jordanian cobras, f-16s, is Jordan the new route for US equipment into Pakistan?

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## nomi007

Donatello said:


> Jordanian cobras, f-16s, is Jordan the new route for US equipment into Pakistan?


in past paf purchase almost every mirage III & V from all around the world
now hope we will get more f-16s


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## nomi007

random247 said:


> Also buying Jordanian AH-1s and F-16s along with Bahrain and other countries which operates AH-1s...


we did not got any ah-1 from Bahrain


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## Zarvan

nomi007 said:


> in past paf purchase almost every mirage III & V from all around the world
> now hope we will get more f-16s


We may get more F-16 from Norway and Netherlands and Denmark they are all soon going for F-35 so we can get F-16 from them


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## nomi007

Zarvan said:


> We may get more F-16 from Norway and Netherlands and Denmark they are all soon going for F-35 so we can get F-16 from them


jordanian are already in deal with denmark to aquire f-16s
in past we heard a deal b/w pakistan and norway but that is now undr files



nomi007 said:


> jordanian are already in deal with denmark to aquire f-16s
> in past we heard a deal b/w pakistan and norway but that is now undr files


From 1979 onwards 213 were license-built by Fokker of which 29 F-16A and 7 F-16B were sold to Chile, 6 F-16B were sold to Jordan. On 17 September 2013 it was announced that a further 7 F-16's will be withdrawn from active service and will serve as spares to increase the readiness of the remaining 61 jets


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## nomi007

random247 said:


> But we can get used ones from Countries operating it like Jordan, Bharain and others for AH-1s...


paa needs twin engine more lethal attack helo


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## banvanaxl

nomi007 said:


> if dialog fail PAA will talk with talibans with this which are recently purchase


What chopper is that in the pic? Looks pretty badass.....


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## Stealth

banvanaxl said:


> What chopper is that in the pic? Looks pretty badass.....


Pakistan Army Cobra Gunship AH1 - US Made weapon


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## fatman17

June issue of AFM.

Field of Dreams
Alan Warnes reports from Pakistan’s Army Aviation School at Rahwali, one of the busiest but least well-known airfields in Pakistan.


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## nomi007

mi-17v5 of paf with lot of fuel

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## nomi007

Pakistan’s Army Aviation School at Rahwali




one of the busiest but least well-known airfields in Pakistan.

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## HAIDER

I thought Dhamyal is the busiest ..


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## fatman17

ok they are both busy...!!!

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## nomi007

HAIDER said:


> I thought Dhamyal is the busiest ..


sir dhamial is paa headquarter and Rahwali is training school

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## DESERT FIGHTER

C-130 delivering a baby:

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## Gentelman

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> C-130 delivering a baby:
> 
> View attachment 30935
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 30940


It's Aeolette French one in presume??


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## fatman17



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## Indus Falcon

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 31582


Nicceee!


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## nomi007



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## fatman17

SA-316 Alouette III - 5422 over Rawal Dam

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## fatman17

SA-330J Puma - 1132

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## fatman17

Mi-17 PAA





Mi-17 - 58506





Mi-17 in UN livery.





Mi-17I - 58640

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## nomi007

he only Mi-6 inducted in PAF came in 1968 for trials to evaluate its heavy airlift capabilities at high altitudes, with a view to assist in on-going Karakorum highway project. The helicopter crashed in 1969 while being demonstrated by a Soviet pilot in hot-and-high conditions.

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

A NEW MISSILE COMING TO PAKISTAN

Weighing only 14Kg this laser guided missile can hit targets 8 KM away.The missiles are the most cost effective in their class. Pakistan is in negotiation with Turkey to purchase these missiles for AH-1 Cobra and Pakistan's Armed Drones.

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## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


> A NEW MISSILE COMING TO PAKISTAN
> 
> Weighing only 14Kg this laser guided missile can hit targets 8 KM away.The missiles are the most cost effective in their class. Pakistan is in negotiation with Turkey to purchase these missiles for AH-1 Cobra and Pakistan's Armed Drones.


Specs:

Diameter 2,75" (70 mm)

Maximum Range 8 km

Minimum Range 1,5 km

Weight 15 kg (Without tube complete)

Propellant Type HTPB based, smokeless, composite solid propellant

Warhead Type Multi Purpose Warhead, Armor Piercing, Personnel, Incendiary

Warhead Type High explosive Warhead

Guidance Mid – phase guidance with MEMS – AÖB

Guidance Terminal guidance with Semi – active LASER Seeker

Target Types Light Armored / Unarmored Vehicles, Stationary and Moving Targets, Bunkers

Platforms Helicopters (AH – 1W, T – 129 ATAK etc.), UAV’s, Land Vehicles, Light Assault Aircraft, Naval Platforms and Stationary Platforms 

CİRİT | 2.75” Laser Guided Missile « Roketsan


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## HAIDER



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## Inception-06



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## Imran Khan

HAIDER said:


>


junk on its place


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## Asena_Y

banvanaxl said:


> What chopper is that in the pic? Looks pretty badass.....





Stealth said:


> Pakistan Army Cobra Gunship AH1 - US Made weapon



It's the Bell AH-1W "Wishkey" Super Cobra of the TAF Land Forces Aviation Command/Attack Helicopter Battalion 1. FİLO.






And Cirit missile during tests

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## fatman17

i dont think PK is interested in this missiles. they would rather opt for the MIZRAK, a clone of the US Hellfire.

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## Bossman

fatman17 said:


> i dont think PK is interested in this missiles. they would rather opt for the MIZRAK, a clone of the US Hellfire.



Already purchased and integrated into PA Cobra's


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## Asena_Y

fatman17 said:


> i dont think PK is interested in this missiles. they would rather opt for the MIZRAK, a clone of the US Hellfire.



It's no near the Hellfire. Its not a clone either.

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## nomi007

why paa is interested in mi mi-35 when more better mil mi-28 is available kindly think


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## FunkyGen

fatman17 said:


> i dont think PK is interested in this missiles. they would rather opt for the MIZRAK, a clone of the US Hellfire.


What happened to our "indigenous efforts" yar? this is too crucial a tech. to be imported these days!


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## nomi007

FORGOT T-129 AND WZ-10 
WE ARE GOING TO ADD MIL MI-28

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140604/DEFREG01/306040023/Analysts-Welcome-Russian-Decision-Arms-Sales-Pakistan


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## nomi007



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## Luftwaffe

nomi007 said:


> FORGOT T-129 AND WZ-10
> WE ARE GOING TO ADD MIL MI-28
> 
> Analysts Welcome Russian Decision on Arms Sales To Pakistan | Defense News | defensenews.com



In case of Pakistan if it is looking for Gunship Helos from Russian, it would never buy it without certain specific Transfer of Technology so my personal opinion is Mi-28 is now a competitor of Atak T-129 who ever gives more Access/Technologies and soft loans could win..


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## nomi007

Luftwaffe said:


> In case of Pakistan if it is looking for Gunship Helos from Russian, it would never buy it without certain specific Transfer of Technology so my personal opinion is Mi-28 is now a competitor of Atak T-129 who ever gives more Access/Technologies and soft loans could win..


mi-28 will be better due to many reasons


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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


>






no sir i am coming


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## Darth Vader

Zarvan said:


> We may get more F-16 from Norway and Netherlands and Denmark they are all soon going for F-35 so we can get F-16 from them


wont be happening soon


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## nomi007

Darth Vader said:


> wont be happening soon


this will not be materialize due to 2 reasons
1 Norwegians f-16s are too rusty 
2 dutch f-16s goes to Jordon
only 1 option is available
turkey


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## Basel

@nomi007 can you please compare both T-129s & Mi-28NEs and post their pros & cons? and which one will be best for PA?

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## nomi007

Basel said:


> @nomi007 can you please compare both T-129s & Mi-28NEs and post their pros & cons? and which one will be best for PA?


i will

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## DESERT FIGHTER

nomi007 said:


> this will not be materialize due to 2 reasons
> 1 Norwegians f-16s are too rusty
> 2 dutch f-16s goes to Jordon
> only 1 option is available
> turkey


And turkey won't be selling them ..


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## nomi007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And turkey won't be selling them ..


jani tension na le
umeed achi rakhni chahe

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## nomi007

my question is 
if we select mi-35/28
than training will takes minimum 2-3 months
if we select T-129 or AH-1z 
than it will be takes minimum 6months 
still confuse how we will use next gen attack helos so early against terrorist


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## HAIDER

Now its official 



Pakistan negotiating MI-35 helicopter deal‏ with Russia: envoy


*ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has placed an order to Russia for purchase of the latest MI-35 Helicopters for multipurpose use including fighting terrorism, Russian Ambassador to Pakistan Alexey Y. Dedov told a news conference at the Russian embassy in Islamabad.*

"The deal is still being negotiated between Russian and Pakistani defence officials and hopefully would be finalised soon," Dedov told the media.

The Russian envoy said there has been never any ban on the sale of Russian military equipment to Pakistan.

"There is ongoing cooperation with Pakistan in the field of defence and counter-terrorism and security," Dedov said.

He also informed the media that Adviser on National Security and Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz would be visiting the Russian city of Kazan to participate in the "5th International Meeting of High-Level Officials Responsible for Security Matters from 18-20 June, 2014.

Sartaj Aziz would also meet Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov during the visit, the envoy said.

Dedov also reiterated the desire of the Russian Federation to strengthen its bilateral relations with Pakistan in all spheres.

The Russian envoy while stating concern over rising incidents of terrorism in Pakistan, expressed sympathies with the victims and offered cooperation to Pakistan in countering terrorism.

"Presence of Uzeb, Tajik, ETIM militants in Pakistan's tribal areas are posing a security threat to the entire region and collective efforts are needed to tackle this menace," Dedov remarked.

He also feared that after the withdrawal of Nato troops from Afghanistan, security would be a big challenge for the Afghan National Security Forces.

DAWN.COM


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## Kompromat

Cobra - MI-35 mix will provide a potent COIN capability.

@Irfan Baloch | Wishes do come true, at least yours Saint Irfan Baloch

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## Irfan Baloch

Aeronaut said:


> Cobra - MI-35 mix will provide a potent COIN capability.
> 
> @Irfan Baloch | Wishes do come true, at least yours Saint Irfan Baloch


it will indeed. I just see liberated bits of TTP with its 23 MM side cannon

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## Kompromat

We'd still need T-129 for replacing cobras. These fat bulls are good for COIN not for net centric armor hunting.

@Irfan Baloch

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## Irfan Baloch

Aeronaut said:


> We'd still need T-129 for replacing cobras. These fat bulls are good for COIN not for net centric armor hunting.
> 
> @Irfan Baloch


T-129 will come eventually ...all in good time, these helicopters will fit very well with our weapons philosophy and will be worthy replacement for cobras.

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## Luftwaffe

Irfan Baloch said:


> it will indeed. I just see liberated bits of TTP with its 23 MM side cannon



Talibani would say in dreams to -35 operator after being evaporated by 23 MM...zara kum fyr [fire] karo hum 3 km janat kay agay gir gaya dozakh mein.

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## aliyusuf

Pretty menacing looking ... perfect tool against the terrorists


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## Rafi

Aeronaut said:


> We'd still need T-129 for replacing cobras. These fat bulls are good for COIN not for net centric armor hunting.
> 
> @Irfan Baloch



As I have mentioned before - PA and PAF will want a work horse, and state of the art platform, ie tip of the spear, like AZ and AK, like JF17 and F16 etc.


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## aliyusuf

HAIDER said:


> *
> ...
> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has placed an order to Russia for purchase of the latest MI-35 Helicopters for multipurpose use including fighting terrorism, Russian Ambassador to Pakistan Alexey Y. Dedov told a news conference at the Russian embassy in Islamabad.
> ...*
> DAWN.COM


*
Mi-35M*
The helicopter can be armed with up to eight 9?114 or 9M120 Ataka-V SACLOS radio guided anti-tank missiles, up to 80 'S-8' 80mm unguided rockets and 20 'S-13' type 122mm unguided aircraft rockets.

The countermeasures suite of Mi-35M includes a radar warning receiver, a laser range finder and a location finder, chaff and flare launch system, infrared (IR) jamming system and engine-exhaust IR suppressor.


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## VelocuR

Why Pakistan is in hurry to purchase this lousy overweight Mi-35?? Please cancel the deal to focus on Turkish helicopters.


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## Donatello

RaptorRX707 said:


> Why Pakistan is in hurry to purchase this lousy overweight Mi-35?? Please cancel the deal to focus on Turkish helicopters.



Lousy? These are pretty bad *** for the talibunnies. Why waste time on T129 or whatever if there is uncertainty? And if Russia has agreed, it is a BIG FREAKING deal, along with much needed firepower we will be enhancing our ties with Russia. Can you Imagine....Pakistan, the only country that is able to procure fighting arms from USA, Russia and China and play with them together? That's a big thing. Plus, the Army's Cobras need serious repairs and arms, USA is showing its arrogance as usual. Why not show them some of ours?

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## Gentelman

aliyusuf said:


> Pretty menacing looking ... perfect tool against the terrorists


I still couldn't get where is it's a$$ and where is it's face??
Well who cares??
Mar gidhar say bhi nikal goli bs mar sahi!!


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## khanasifm

Why because for the price and capability its best option

Russia completes delivery 12 Mi-35 AH-2 Sabre attack helicopters to Brazilian armed forces 1404133Â -Â Army Recognition

BRAZIL

Mi-35M Wins Brazilian Attack Helicopter Competition


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## fatman17

Mi-35P




Mi-35P Flying Tank coming to a theatre near you.

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## FNFAL

I asked this in the other thread that was closed down: What is the version that pakistan is getting? Also are are they going to be factory new or ready is pakistan looking for ready to fly versions?


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## fatman17

FNFAL said:


> I asked this in the other thread that was closed down: What is the version that pakistan is getting? Also are are they going to be factory new or ready is pakistan looking for ready to fly versions?


 
most likely M-35P also known as Hind-E to the best of my knowledge. some reports suggest a few may be used (from russian stocks) and a few new helos to be delivered later. PK needs them now.

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## FNFAL

fatman17 said:


> most likely M-35P also known as Hind-E to the best of my knowledge. some reports suggest a few may be used (from russian stocks) and a few new helos to be delivered later. PK needs them now.


Cool. but the MI35P is actually the Mi24P. This is the only hind with the fixed 30mm dual cannon on the starboard side instead of the 12.7mm cannon on the chin.
I guess it should be a mix of both. Haters notwithstanding, the hind wit its armor and loitering capability would be of immense value to ground forces in a co-ordinated attack

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## Kompromat

FNFAL said:


> Cool. but the MI35P is actually the Mi24P. This is the only hind with the fixed 30mm dual cannon on the starboard side instead of the 12.7mm cannon on the chin.
> I guess it should be a mix of both. Haters notwithstanding, the hind wit its armor and loitering capability would be of immense value to ground forces in a co-ordinated attack



It can carry 8 fully loaded SSGs, blast its way in, loiter and provide fire support, extract them, fight its way out while taking the beating.

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## FLIR

Whats wrong with 28 why we r going for mi-35?


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## Inception-06

Aeronaut said:


> It can carry 8 fully loaded SSGs, blast its way in, loiter and provide fire support, extract them, fight its way out while taking the beating.



I did write years ago in the old pakistani defence forum that we have to buy the M-24 and upgrdae all our Tye-56 and Ak-47 Guns to counter the TTP in the urban and mountain warfare ....., now everything becomes real !

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## Stealth

I always feel its a bad choice either Mi28 or Mi35.... these are too bulky and extremely easy to target comparatively Cobra Gunships.. still hope for AH1z Super cobra's

PS: US lost its most reliable ally in the region ...


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## Inception-06

Stealth said:


> I always feel its a bad choice either Mi28 or Mi35.... these are too bulky and extremely easy to target comparatively Cobra Gunships.. still hope for AH1z Super cobra's
> 
> PS: US lost its most reliable ally in the region ...



US Helis cant carry 10 SSG killer Soldiers !


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## Icarus

Stealth said:


> I always feel its a bad choice either Mi28 or Mi35.... these are too bulky and extremely easy to target comparatively Cobra Gunships.. still hope for AH1z Super cobra's
> 
> PS: US lost its most reliable ally in the region ...




The MI-35 serves as an attack/medium lift helo, ideally suited to LIC.

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## Stealth

Icarus said:


> The MI-35 serves as an attack/medium lift helo, ideally suited to LIC.



You can use old Cobra's for LIC you don't need completely new platform for LIC... if there is any issue regarding US supply of Super Cobra's than T129 is the best option. Russians Helis are too bulky and easy to target...



Ulla said:


> US Helis cant carry 10 SSG killer Soldiers !



You want one single shot and you lost 10 SSG along with mutli million $ heli ?


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## Icarus

Stealth said:


> You can use old Cobra's for LIC you don't need completely new platform for LIC... if there is any issue regarding US supply of Super Cobra's than T129 is the best option. Russians Helis are too bulky and easy to target...



A regular gunship can only attack ground targets but the MI-35 can:

1. Fly CAS.
2. Drop soldiers and supplies.
3. Evacuate casualties. 

It is thus a desired platform, as far as being hit goes, if a stinger is coming towards a heli, its going to hit, no second question but an RPG is just flying in a parabolic fashion and can easily be evaded, bulk becomes a very small detail at that moment, its about luck. Pakistan has lost both an Mi-17 and a Cobra to an RPG hit which shows that neither are immune to it as a threat, the advantages greatly outweigh the 5 odd feet by which the MI-35 presents a bigger target than the Cobra. 



> You want one single shot and you lost 10 SSG along with mutli million $ heli ?



If you start calculating casualties by pulling them out of thin air then fighting a war is a far-off, you'll never take your family to have ice cream in your car.

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## alimobin memon

*Iran–Iraq War (1980–1988)[edit]*
The Mi-25 saw considerable use by the Iraqi Army during the long war against Iran.[21] Its heavy armament was a key factor in causing severe damage to Iranian ground forces during the war. However, the Mi-25s lacked an effective anti-tank capability, as they were only armed with obsolete 9M17 Skorpion missiles.[22] This led the Iraqis to develop new gunship tactics, with help from East German advisors. The Mi-25s would form "hunter-killer" teams with French-built Aérospatiale Gazelles, with the Mi-25s leading the attack and using their massive firepower to suppress Iranian air defenses, and the Gazelles using their HOT missiles to engage armoured fighting vehicles. These tactics proved effective in halting Iranian offensives, such as Operation Ramadan in July 1982.[22]






An Iraqi Mil Mi-25, brought down during the Iran–Iraq War, on display at a Military museum in Tehran.
This war also saw the only confirmed air-to-air helicopter battles in history with the Iraqi Mi-25s flying against Iranian AH-1J SeaCobras(supplied by the United States before the Iranian Revolution) on several separate occasions. Not long after Iraq's initial invasion of Iran, in November 1980 two Iranian SeaCobras crept up on two Mi-25s and hit them with TOW wire-guided antitank missiles. One Mi-25 went down immediately, the other was badly damaged and crashed before reaching base.[19][23] The Iranians pulled off a repeat performance on 24 April 1981, destroying two Mi-25s without incurring losses to themselves.[19]

The Iraqis hit back, claiming the destruction of a SeaCobra on 14 September 1983 (with YaKB machine gun), then three SeaCobras on 5 February 1984[23] and three more on 25 February 1984 (two with Falanga missiles, one with S-5 rockets).[19] After a lull in helicopter losses, each side lost a gunship on 13 February 1986.[19] Later, a Mi-25 claimed a SeaCobra shot down with YaKB gun on 16 February, and a SeaCobra claimed a Mi-25 shot down with rockets on 18 February.[19] The last engagement between the two types was on 22 May 1986, when Mi-25s shot down a SeaCobra. The final claim tally was 10 SeaCobras destroyed and 6 Mi-25s destroyed. The relatively small numbers and the inevitable disputes over actual kill numbers makes it unclear if one gunship had a real technical superiority over the other. Iraqi Mi-25s also claimed a total of 43 kills against other Iranian helicopters, such as Agusta-Bell UH-1 Hueys.[23]

In general, the Iraqi pilots liked the Mi-25, in particular for its high speed, long range, high versatility and large weapon load, but disliked the relatively ineffectual weapons and lack of agility.[22] The Mi-25 was also used by Iraq in chemical warfare against Iranians and Kurdish civilians in Halabja.[23]

a good analysis to compare seacobra which is better than our current cobras .


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## VelocuR

Does India have this Mi35 or 24? Many countries operated oldest verion of Mi-24. US captured Mi-24 during Iraq war in 1991 and Iran captured it during Iraq-Iran. 

Pretty useless helicopter in Tehran Museum






Afghan operate Mi-35 now?















The Mi-24 attack / transport helicopter is manufactured by the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant, based in Moscow, Russia. It entered service with the Soviet Union in the late 1970s, and more than 2,500 have been produced.

The Mi-24 has been deployed in a number of conflicts including Afghanistan and in Chechnya.

The original model (Nato codename Hind-A), designed to carry eight combat troops, was later reconfigured to take on the gunship role (Hind-D).

Later versions, Mi-24P and the export Mi-35P, are also armed with anti-tank missile systems for the engagement of moving armoured targets, weapon emplacements and slow-moving air targets. All versions retain the troop transport capability.

*Hind helicopter international sales*
*The Mi-24 is in service with Russia and countries of the ex-Soviet Union and has been exported to Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Bulgaria, Cuba, Czech Republic, East Germany, Hungary, India, Indonesia, Iraq, the Ivory Coast, Libya, Mozambique, Nicaragua, North Korea, Peru, Poland, Vietnam and South Yemen. Ten Mi-35 helicopters were delivered by Russia to the Czech Republic in 2005/2006 as part of a debt repayment.*

"Later versions of the Mi-24P are armed with anti-tank missile systems."
*In 2005, ten Mi-35M helicopters were ordered by Venezuela. The first batch of four was delivered in July 2006, the second four in December 2006. Indonesia placed an order for six additional Mi-35s in late 2006. Deliveries are due to begin in July 2008. In October 2008, Brazil ordered 12 Mi-35M attack helicopters.*

*Mi-24P (Mi-25 and Mi-35) Hind Attack / Transport Helicopter, Russia*

I bet, Pakistan Officals doesn't know more about Mi-24/Mi-35 history.


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## Icarus

RaptorRX707 said:


> I bet, Pakistan Officals doesn't know more about Mi-24/Mi-35 history.




Multi-million dollar deals are not made on whim but have years of research and feasibility studies behind them.


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## VelocuR

Afghanistan's Mi-35




















Hungarian Defence Forces, Air Mentor Team train Afghan pilots and gorund crew for Mi-35 attack helicopters in Kabul.

What's the point of Pakistan get same helicopters that Afghanistan and India already have?

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## alimobin memon

Good thing is we had these atleast 2 mi24's operational but due to insufficient sources were retired. This makes me happy that there are still pak pilots from that retired mi24's that will train army faster for new mi35 we might soon see them in operations against ttp as soon as they are recieved.


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## Informant

Wait why is DESERT FIGHTER banned? 

@Jungibaaz @Aeronaut


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## VelocuR

Icarus said:


> Multi-million dollar deals are not made on whim but have years of research and feasibility studies behind them.



All of sudden, Pakistan have huge money instead T-129 or Z10? I think, there is something wrong, please see pictures above I posted.



Informant said:


> Wait why is DESERT FIGHTER banned?
> 
> @Jungibaaz @Aeronaut



Babe, it is not end of the world, he will be back. Maybe he got banned due to arguments and wasting time with Indian trolls.


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## nomi007

only 1 reason due to which govt decided to purchase mil m-35 is low cost less than 10millions $
other wise they have lot of money for purchasing *bmw's*


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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> only 1 reason due to which govt decided to purchase mil m-35 is low cost less than 10millions $
> other wise they have lot of money for purchasing *bmw's*



Mi 35 doesn't come to mind when talking about advanced attack helicopters, so i guess you're correct. They are cheaper and that maybe the only reason. However, to kill talibass we don't need to ATAK or Apaches, we just need a beast who can survive small arms fire and also rain down fire.


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## nomi007

razgriz19 said:


> Mi 35 doesn't come to mind when talking about advanced attack helicopters, so i guess you're correct. They are cheaper and that maybe the only reason. However, to kill talibass we don't need to ATAK or Apaches, we just need a beast who can survive small arms fire and also rain down fire.


bro be remember mi-35 will be easy target for enemy


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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> bro be remember mi-35 will be easy target for enemy



I know, and this is one of the reasons why it should not be inducted in PA. But right now that's all we can afford...
I'm pretty sure, Russia is giving a very good deal, that's why this acquisition is moving way too fast


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## nomi007

razgriz19 said:


> I know, and this is one of the reasons why it should not be inducted in PA. But right now that's all we can afford...
> I'm pretty sure, Russia is giving a very good deal, that's why this acquisition is moving way too fast


pakistan need early deliveries 
may be we are going for 2nd hand helos as usual


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## Ra'ad

*ARE*.....*YOU*.....*READY*?




*Coz I AM!!! *

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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> bro be remember mi-35 will be easy target for enemy



with ecm suit andjammer, its as vulnerable as atak or cobra. not to mention ttp dont have stingers anymore, before stingers, hind ruled afghan skies !

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## Gentelman

nomi007 said:


> only 1 reason due to which govt decided to purchase mil m-35 is low cost less than 10millions $
> other wise they have lot of money for purchasing *bmw's*


Reasons can be:
* already built maintenance facilities
*Pressurize US Think tank and Pentagon fellows(They are great businessmen and won't appreciate losing an importer to Russians).


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## Icarus

RaptorRX707 said:


> All of sudden, Pakistan have huge money instead T-129 or Z10? I think, there is something wrong, please see pictures above I posted.



T-129 and Z-10 are platforms that are being weighed as possible replacements to our ageing fleet of Cobras. The MI-35 are a separate class of helicopter for fulfilling completely different operational goals. In an LIC situation, the MI-35 has huge operational potential and that's why its such a successful platform all across the world.

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## fatman17

*Mil Mi-24*
*1969*

The Mi-24, which has the NATO reporting name 'Hind', was developed during the mid-1960s to provide a multi-role military helicopter-of formidable capability. It appears to be evolved from, the Mil *Mi-8/Mi-14* family, but a combination of reduced size and increased power gives this aircraft improved manoeuvrability and performance. While of the same basic configuration as its predecessors, and with a dynamic system based on that of the Mi-8, the Mi-24 has a more slender fuselage suitable for the gunship role, but with sufficient capability to accommodate a crew of four and a maximum of eight armed troops. The tricycle landing gear has retractable main units and a semi-retractable nose unit. Short-span cantilever shoulder wings with considerable anhedral are a distinguishing feature, and each provides mountings for a variety of weapons. Entering service in 1973-74 and deployed initially in East Germany, the Mi-24 has developed during military exercises into variants for armed assault, for anti-armour use, and for use as a helicopter escort, well able to oppose enemy helicopters in air-to-air combat. About 1,500 'Hinds', in production since the early 1970s, are currently in service with CIS forces. The type saw much action in Afghanistan, used as the proving ground for many operational improvements to the 'Hind'. The type was also used in the Iraq/Iran war of the early 1980s. The Mi-24 has been widely exported and a number are in service on most continents, with examples delivered to, or operating in, Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Bulgaria, Chad, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Germany, Hungary, India, Iraq, Libya, Mozambique, Nicaragua, North Korea, Peru, Poland, Sri Lanka, Syria, Vietnam and Yemen. Production continues at a low rate and by 1991 more than 2,300 had been built. FAI records set by the A-1O experimental variant of the 'Hind' gave some indication of the type's capabilities, as when on 2 September 1978 over a 15/25km course it achieved a speed of 368.4km/h.

VARIANTS
*Mi-24 'Hind':* early production version, reported in 1972 but not seen until 1973; introduced into Soviet service in 1973/74
*Mi-24 'Hind-A':* second production model, with tail rotor moved from the starboard to port side of the tailfin; used as armed assault helicopter, carrying eight troops and three crew members
*Mi-24'Hind-B':* initial production model with tail rotor on starboard side, wings without anhedral, no wingtip stations and only four underwing hardpoints; test use only
*Mi-24 'Hind-C':* dedicated training helicopter similar to 'Hind-A', but without nose-gun installation and wingtip stations
Mi-24D 'Hind-D': initial dedicated gunship variant; first reported around 1977, Mi-24D is basically a late production 'Hind-A' with revised forward fuselage containing separate cockpits for pilot and gunner, the latter controlling a single 12.7mm turret-mounted machine-gun and pylon-mounted AT-2 'Swatter' wire-guided ATMs; some versions had 23mm cannon in turret
Mi-24W 'Hind-E': improved version of 'Hind-D' gunship first reported in early 1980s; equipped with 12 AT-6 'Spiral' radio-guided ATMs mounted on stub wings together with AA-8 'Aphid' air-to-air missiles for self-defence
Mi-24P 'Hind-F': Mi-24P (P for pushka, cannon) version of gunship, appeared in 1982 fitted with 30-mm GSh-30-2 cannon in starboard uderfuselage nose pack which includes 750 rounds of ammunition
Mi-24R 'Hind-G 1': fitted with wingtip 'grapplers' or 'clutching hands' apparently used in connection with NBC technology, the Mi-24R was first reported in 1986 after the Chernobyl disaster
Mi-24K 'Hind-G 2': similar to Mi-24R but with large camera installed in cabin with lens on starboard side
Mi-25: export version of 'Hind-D'
Mi-35: export version of 'Hind-E'
Mi-35P: export version of 'Hind-F'
D.Donald "The Complete Encyclopedia of World Aircraft", 1997

NATO reporting name: Hind
TYPE: Twin-turbine gunship helicopter, with transport capability.

PROGRAMME: Development began second half of 1960s, as first fire support helicopter in former USSR, with accommodation for eight armed troops; 12 prototypes built; first flight 19 September 1969; first reported in West 1972; photographs became available 1974, when two units of approximately squadron strength based in the former East Germany; reconfiguration of front fuselage changed primary role to gunship; new version first observed 1977; used operationally in Chad, Nicaragua, Ceylon (now Sri Lanka), Angola, Afghanistan, Chechnya and Iran/Iraq war, when at least one Iranian F-4 Phantom II destroyed by AT-6 (NATO 'Spiral') anti-tank missile from Mi-24; low-rate production continued for export until 1994. Late models still available from Rostvertol.

VERSIONS
*Mi-24A* ('Hind-A, B and C'): Early versions with pilot and co-pilot/gunner in tandem under large-area continuous glazing; large flight deck; about 250 built.
*Mi-24BMT*: Modified 1973 for minesweeping.
*Mi-24D*: (Type 24-6; 'Hind-D'): Interim gunship version; design began 1971; entered production at Arsenyev and Rostov plants 1973; about 350 built 1973-77. Basically as late model 'Hind-A' with TV3-117 engines and port-side tail rotor, but entire front fuselage redesigned above floor forward of engine air intakes; heavily armoured separate cockpits for weapon operator and pilot in tandem; flight mechanic optional, in main cabin; transport capability retained; USUP-24 gun system, with rangefinding; undernose JakB-12.7 four-barrel 12.7mm machine gun in turret, slaved to adjacent KPS-53A electro-optical sighting pod, for air-to-air and air-to-surface use; Falanga P (Phalanx) anti-tank missile system; nosewheel leg extended to increase ground clearance of sensor pods; nosewheels semi-exposed when retracted.
_Detailed description refers to Mi-24D, except where indicated._
*Mi-24DU*: Dual-control training version has no gun turret. (See also Mi-25.)
*Mi-24K* (_korrektirovchik_: corrector) ('Hind-G2'): As Mi-24R, but with large camera in cabin, f8/1,300mm lens on starboard side; six per helicopter regiment for reconnaissance and artillery fire correction; gun and B-8V-20 rocket pods retained. No target designator pod under nose; upward hingeing cover for IR sensor. About 150 built 1983-89.
*Mi-24P* (Type 24-3; 'Hind-F'): Development started 1974; about 620 built 1981-90; first shown in service in 1982 photographs; P of designation refers to _pushka_ = cannon; as Mi-24V, but nose gun turret replaced by GSh-30-2 twin-barrel 30mm gun (with 750 rounds) in semi-cylindrical pack on starboard side of nose; bottom of nose smoothly faired above and forward of sensors.
*Mi-24PS*: Special version for Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs; prototype exhibited at Moscow Air Show '95. Equipment includes undernose FLIR, searchlight on port side, loadspeaker pack on starboard side; hoist, climbdown ropes, stations for radio operator.
*Mi-24RKR* ('Hind-G1'): Identified at Chernobyl after April 1986 accident at nuclear power station; no undernose electro-optical or RF missile guidance pods; instead of wingtip weapon mounts, has 'clutching hand' mechanisms on lengthened pylons, to obtain six soil samples per sortie for NBC (nuclear/biological/chemical) warfare analysis; air samples sucked in via pipe on port side, aft of doors; datalink to pass findings to ground; lozenge-shaped housing with exhaust pipe of air filtering system under port side of cabin; bubble window on starboard side of main cabin; small rearward-firing marker flare pack on tailskid; crew of four wear NBC suits; six helicopters are deployed per regiment throughout RFAS ground forces. Designation (also appearing as Mi-24RCh) indicates _Razvedchik_: reconnaissance/chemical. About 150 built 1983-89.
*Mi-24RR*: Derivative of Mi-24R for radiation reconnaissance.
*Mi-24U*: unarmed dual-control trainers (first flight 1972).
*Mi-24V* (Types 20-1 and 24-2; 'Hind-E'): As Mi-24D, but modified wingtip launchers and four underwing pylons; weapons include up to eight 9M114 (NATO AT-6 'Spiral') radio-guided tube-launched anti-tank missiles in pairs in Shturm V (Attack) missile system; ASP-17V enlarged undernose automatic missile guidance pod on port side, with fixed searchlight to rear; R-60 (K-60; NATO AA-8 'Aphid') air-to-air missiles optional on underwing pylons; pilot's HUD replaces former reflector gunsight. Deliveries to former Soviet Air Force began 29 March 1976; about 1,000 built at Arsenyev and Rostov 1976-86. (See also Mi-35.)
*Mi-24VM*: Proposed upgrade first shown in model form at Moscow Air Show '95.
*Mi-24VP*: Variant of Mi-24V with twin-barrel 23mm GSh-23 gun, with 450 rounds, in place of four-barrel 12.7mm gun in nose; photographed 1992; small production series built at Rostov.
*Mi-24 Ecological Survey Version*: Modification by Polyot industrial research organisation, to assess oil pollution on water and seasonal changes of water level. First seen 1991 with large flat sensor 'tongue' projecting from nose in place of gun turret; large rectangular sensor pod on outer starboard underwing pylon; unidentified modification replaces rear cabin window on starboard side.
*Mi-25*: Export Mi-24D, including those for Afghanistan, Cuba and India.
*Mi-35*: Export Mi-24V. Unarmed, dual-control trainer version also produced for India.
*Mi-35M*: Upgraded Mi-24/35 designed to meet the latest air mobility requirements of the Russian Army.
*Mi-35M1*: Upgrade of latest production standard of Mi-24VP.
*Mi-35P*: Export Mi-24P.
*ATE 'Super Hind'*: Upgrade configuration proposed by South Africa's Advanced Technologies and Engineering. Derived from Denel/Kentron PZL W-3WB Huzar upgrade. Extended nose in front of cockpit with undernose Kentron IR/EO sight and 20mm chain gun, cheek fairing to port for ammunition feed, designator, improved displays, new night vision systems and provision for Denel/Kentron Ingwe or Mokopa ATMs. Prototype ZU-BOI rolled out at Grand Central Airport, Midrand, by 15 February 1999.
*Tamam Mi-24 HMOSP*: Israeli upgrade configuration. US$20 million contract placed for upgrade of 25 (possibly Indian) Mi-24s based on existing Helicopter Multimission Optronic Stabilised Payload System, with TV, FLIR and automatic target tracker, integrated with helmet sight, digital moving map, integrated DASS and a new mission planning system. Cockpits can be reorganised to put pilot in front, weapon operator in rear.

CUSTOMERS: More than 2,500 produced at Arsenyev and Rostov.

DESIGN FEATURES: Typical helicopter gunship configuration, with stepped tandem seating for two crew and heavy weapon load on stub-wings; fuselage unusually wide for role, due to requirement for carrying eight troops; dynamic components and power plant originally as *Mi-8*, but soon upgraded to *Mi-17*-type power plant and port-side tail rotor. Main rotor blade section NACA 230, thickness/chord ratio 11 to 12%; tail rotor blade section NACA 230M; stub-wing anhedral 12°, incidence 19°; wings contribute approximately 25% of lift in cruising flight; fin offset 3°.

STRUCTURE: Five-blade constant-chord main rotor; forged and machined steel head, with conventional flapping, drag and pitch change articulation; each blade has aluminium alloy spar, skin and honeycomb core; spars nitrogen pressurised for crack detection; hydraulic lead/lag dampers; balance tab on each blade; aluminium alloy three-blade tail rotor; main rotor brake; all-metal semi-monocoque fuselage pod and boom; 5mm hardened steel integral side armour on front fuselage; all-metal shoulder wings with no movable surfaces; swept fin/tail rotor mounting; variable incidence horizontal stabiliser.

LANDING GEAR: Tricycle type; rearward-retracting steerable twin-wheel nose unit; single-wheel main units with oleo-pneumatic shock-absorbers and low-pressure tyres, size 720 x 320mm on mainwheels, 480 x 200mm on nosewheels. Main units retract rearward and inward into aft end of fuselage pod, turning through 90° to stow almost vertically, discwise to longitudinal axis of fuselage, under prominent blister fairings. Tubular tripod skid assembly, with shock-strut, protects tail rotor in tail-down take-off or landing.

POWER PLANT: Two Klimov TV3-117MT turboshafts, each with maximum rating of 1,434kW, side by side above cabin, with output shafts driving rearward to main rotor shaft through combining gearbox. There is 5mm hardened steel armour protection for engines. Main fuel tank in fuselage to rear of cabin, with bag tanks behind main gearbox. Internal fuel capacity 1,500kg; can be supplemented by 1,000kg auxiliary tank in cabin (Mi-24D); provision for carrying (instead of auxiliary tank) up to four external tanks, each 500 litres, on two inner pylons under each wing. Optional deflectors and separators for foreign objects and dust in air intakes; and infra-red suppression exhaust mixer boxes over exhaust ducts.

ACCOMMODATION: Pilot (at rear) and weapon operator on armoured seats in tandem cockpits under individual canopies; dual flying controls, with retractable pedals in front cockpit; if required, flight mechanic on jump-seat in cabin, with narrow passage between flight deck and cabin. Front canopy hinged to open sideways to starboard; footstep under starboard side of fuselage for access to pilot's rearward-hinged door; rear seat raised to give pilot unobstructed forward view; anti-fragment shield between cockpits. Main cabin can accommodate eight persons on folding seats, or four stretchers; at front of cabin on each side is a door, divided horizontally into two sections, hinged to open upward and downward respectively, with integral step on lower portion. Optically flat bulletproof glass windscreen, with wiper, for each crew member.

SYSTEMS: Cockpits and cabin heated and ventilated. Dual electrical system, with three generators, giving 36, 115 and 208V AC at 400Hz, and 27V DC. Retractable landing/taxying light under nose; navigation lights; anti-collision light above tailboom. Stability augmentation system. Electrothermal de-icing system for main and tail rotor blades. AI-9V APU mounted transversely inside fairing aft of rotor head.

AVIONICS: _Comms_: R-860/863 and Karat M24 com; SPU-8 intercom. 
_Flight_: VUAP-1 autopilot, ARK-15M radio compass, ARK-U2 radio compass, RV-5 radio altimeter. 
_Instrumentation_: Blind-flying instrumentation, and ADF navigation system with DISS-1SD Doppler-fed mechanical map display. Air data sensor boom forward of top starboard corner of bulletproof windscreen at extreme nose. 
_Mission_: Undernose pods for electro-optics (starboard) and Raduga-F semi-automatic missile guidance (port). Many small antennae and blisters, including SRO-2 Khrom (NATO 'Odd Rods') IFF transponder. 
_Self-defence_: Sirena-3M radar warning antennae on each side of front fuselage and on trailing-edge of tail rotor pylon. Infra-red jammer (L-166V-11E Jspanka microwave pulse lamp: 'Hot Brick') in 'flower pot' container above forward end of tailboom. ASO-2V flare dispensers under tailboom forward of tailskid assembly initially; later triple racks (total of 192 flares) on sides of centre-fuselage.

EQUIPMENT: Gun camera on port wingtip. Colour-coded identification flare system.

ARMAMENT: One remotely controlled YakB-12.7 four-barrel Gatling-type 12.7mm machine gun, with 1,470 rounds, in VSPU-24 undernose turret with field of fire 60° to each side, 20° up, 60° down; gun slaved to KPS-53AV undernose sighting system with reflector sight in front cockpit; four 9M17P Skorpion (NATO AT-2 'Swatter') anti-tank missiles on 2P32M twin rails under endplate pylons at wingtips; four underwing pylons for UB-32 rocket pods (each 32 S-5 type 57mm rockets), B-8V-20 pods each containing 20 80mm S-8 rockets, 130 mm S-13 and 250mm S-24 rockets, UPK-23-250 pods each containing a GSh-23L twin-barrel 23mm gun, GUV pods each containing either one four-barrel 12.7mm YakB-12.7 machine gun with 750 rounds and two four-barrel 7.62mm 9-A-622 machine guns with total 1,100 rounds or an AGS-17 Plamia 30mm grenade launcher, up to 1,500kg of conventional bombs, mine dispensers, night flares or other stores. R-60 (AA-8 'Aphid'), R-73 (AA-11 'Archer') and Igla air-to-air missiles fitted experimentally. Helicopter can be landed to install reload weapons carried in cabin. PKV reflector gunsight for pilot. Provisions for firing AKMS guns from cabin windows.
Jane's Helicopter Markets and Systems
font size=3>Technical data for *Mi-24*
Crew:* 2*, engine:* 2 x Klimov TV3-117 *turboshaft, rated at* 1620kW*, main rotor diameter:* 18.8m*, height:* 4.17m*, take-off weight:* 11500kg*, empty weight:* 8200kg*, max speed:* 330km/h*, cruising speed:* 217-270km/h*, rate of climb:* 12.5m/s*, service ceiling:* 5000m*, hovering ceiling, OGE:* 1500m*, range:* 500km*, payload:* 2500kg*




Mi-24





Mi-24






Mi-24





US Navy SH-2F Sea Sprite "Seasnake Two Zero" getting chased on final approach to landing by a Soviet Frontal Aviation Mi-24D Hind.
Photo taken April 1985 near the La Pérouse Straits (between Sakhalin Island and Vladivostok) - Thanks Gordon!

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## FNFAL

Aeronaut said:


> It can carry 8 fully loaded SSGs, blast its way in, loiter and provide fire support, extract them, fight its way out while taking the beating.


Correct. NO other gunship can perform 3 different roles in a single air-frame with such ease-Fire Support, Troop Carrier and Ambulance. MI35s with the AH1s should bring some serious death from the sky.


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## fatman17



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## nomi007

how many mil mi-35 Pakistan is obtaining


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## nomi007



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## Ra'ad

Ye kia hai?


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## Dazzler

Ra'ad said:


> Ye kia hai?


french puma in pak army

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> how many mil mi-35 Pakistan is obtaining


 
10-12 examples at best.

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## nomi007

front-line pic








Basel said:


> @nomi007 can you please compare both T-129s & Mi-28NEs and post their pros & cons? and which one will be best for PA?


bro check it

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## nomi007

*Klimov TV3-117*
use in mil mi-8/17 & also in mi-35

*General characteristics*

*Type:* Free-turbine Turboshaft
*Length:* 2,055 mm (80.9 in)
*Diameter:* 728 mm (28.7 in) (height)
*Dry weight:* 294 kg (648 lb)
*Components*

*Compressor:*
*Performance*

*Maximum power output:* 1,640 kW (2,200 shp) (take-off)
*Overall pressure ratio:* 9.4:1
*Air mass flow:* 8.7 kg/s (19 lb/s) minimum
*Turbine inlet temperature:* 920-990 C (Turbine entry temperature)
*Specific fuel consumption:* 0.308 kg/kW/hr (0.507 lb/shp/hr)

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## fatman17

*Pakistan Negotiating Mi-35 Purchases from Russia*
June 13th, 2014 


PAKISTAN IS moving ahead with plans to purchase Mi-35 Hind attack helicopters from Russia. Federal Minister for Defence, Khawaja Muhammad […]


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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=546467835465405




*MI-28NE* ATTACK HELICOPTER.

*Another option for Pakistan*

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## mosu

blueaxe_101 said:


> I still think that Z-10 with local assembly is the best option.
> 
> We can easily sell them with US permission to Korea or Japan and also other countries like Spain, Turkey, Jordan, Bahrain and Thailand with US permission and acquire either Apaches, ATAK or Z-10s.


You are nishan u r back with new name

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## Asena_Y

blueaxe_101 said:


> I still think that Z-10 with local assembly is the best option.
> 
> We can easily sell them with US permission to Korea or Japan and also other countries like Spain, Turkey, Jordan, Bahrain and Thailand with US permission and acquire either Apaches, ATAK or Z-10s.



None of them would buy that chopper

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## Shabi1

The problem with Z-10 is that China has to meet its own requirements first so wont be available, the Chinese havnt offered it for export as well. The T-129 is only viable if Pakistan joins Turkey with a TOT as Turkey has its own requirements to meet first, only way the T-129 can be exported is if PAC Kamra gets involved and a second assembly line is started. Starting a new production line will take time but still a very viable option. The Turks have offered co-production so its a very good possibility. The third option is the Mi-28NE, it could be delivered earlier than the other options but is a true heavy Gunship so might cost more.

My guess is the Mi-35s are being inducted to compliment PAs Cobra fleet, so that hey are freed from escort duties. At the moment SSGs need a Cobra escort for insertions with Mi-17s and Bell-412s. Also the Mi-35 shares components with the Mi-17 so maintenance would be easier.

PA still hasnt finalized its Cobra replacement so the debate between Z-10, T-129 and Mi-28NE is still on. Perhaps a decision would be made once the Mi-35s have been fielded and Russia's commitment to establishing military relations are tested. If the Mi-35s are a success then PA should opt for Mi-28NEs to replace Cobras else the T-129 is the best option unless China is finally ready to offer the Z-10 for export.


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## Sulman Badshah

South African Upgrades of Mi 35 are alot better than basic Russian Ones ....there may be a chance of future upgrades from SA


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## Shabi1

Sulman Badshah said:


> South African Upgrades of Mi 35 are alot better than basic Russian Ones ....there may be a chance of future upgrades from SA



Procure used Mi-35s and have South Africa upgrade them. Good suggestion.
New builds will probably have the same features with quicker delivery. But I doubt they hill have the more powerful engines for the higher altitudes. One of the drawbacks of the Mi-28/35s Indian Army had in Kargil was they couldn't operate well at higher altitudes. Newer Mi-35s have better engines to fix this issue. Lets see what the brass in PA are going to do. Will have to wait and see.

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## nomi007

*best image i ever see*
by the way we are also purchasing mil mi-26

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## Sulman Badshah

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 35091
> *best image i ever see*
> by the way we are also purchasing mil mi-26




It is good to see them in our Aviation ....


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## khanboy007

as the russian embargo has been lifted,so guys what do you say for a *kamov ka-50*  ?????

Kamov Ka-50 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






*General characteristics*


*Crew:* One
*Length:* 16.0 m (52 ft 6 in)
*Rotor diameter:* 14.5 m (47 ft 7 in)
*Height:* 4.93 m (16 ft 2 in)
*Disc area:* 330.3 m² (3,555 ft²)
*Empty weight:* 7,700 kg (17,000 lb)
*Loaded weight:* 9,800 kg (21,600 lb)
*Max. takeoff weight:* 10,800 kg (23,810 lb)
*Powerplant:* 2 × Klimov TV3-117[48] turboshaft, 1,641 kW (2,200 shp) each
*Performance*


*Never exceed speed:* 350 km/h (189 knots, 217 mph) in dive
*Maximum speed:* 315 km/h (170 knots, 196 mph) in level flight
*Cruise speed:* 270 km/h (146 knots, 168 mph)
*Range:* 545 km (339 miles)
*Combat radius:* 470 km (294 mi)
*Ferry range:* 1,160 km (720 mi) with 4 drop tanks
*Service ceiling:* 5,500 m (18,000 ft)
*Rate of climb:* 10 m/s (32.8 ft/s)
*Disc loading:* 30 kg/m² (6 lb/ft²)
*Power/mass:* 0.33 kW/kg (0.20 hp/lb)
*Armament*


*Guns:* 1x mobile semi-rigid 30 mm Shipunov 2A42 cannon (460 rounds total, dual feeding AP or HE-Frag)
*Hardpoints:* 6 with a capacity of 2,000 kg and provisions to carry combinations of:
*Rockets:* 80 x 80 mm S-8 rockets and 20 x 122 mm S-13 rocket,
*Missiles:* 2 x APU-6 Missile racks, able to accommodate a total of 12 9K121 Vikhr anti-tank missiles, Vympel R-73 (NATO: AA-11 _Archer_) air-to-air missiles, Kh-25 semi-active laser guided tactical air-to-ground missiles
*Bombs:* 4x 250 kg (550 lb) bombs or 2x 500 kg (1,100 lb) bombs,
*Other:* 23 mm UPK-23-250 gun pods (240 rounds each), 500 L (130 US gal) external fuel tanks. Reportedly, twin Igla light air-to-air missile launchers under each wingtip countermeasure pod (total 4 missiles).[34]

Two pods on the wingtips with flare and chaff countermeasure dispensers, 4 UV-26 dispensers each (total 512 chaff/flare cartridges in each pod)


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## nomi007

khanboy007 said:


> as the russian embargo has been lifted,so guys what do you say for a *kamov ka-50*  ?????
> 
> Kamov Ka-50 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *General characteristics*
> 
> 
> *Crew:* One
> *Length:* 16.0 m (52 ft 6 in)
> *Rotor diameter:* 14.5 m (47 ft 7 in)
> *Height:* 4.93 m (16 ft 2 in)
> *Disc area:* 330.3 m² (3,555 ft²)
> *Empty weight:* 7,700 kg (17,000 lb)
> *Loaded weight:* 9,800 kg (21,600 lb)
> *Max. takeoff weight:* 10,800 kg (23,810 lb)
> *Powerplant:* 2 × Klimov TV3-117[48] turboshaft, 1,641 kW (2,200 shp) each
> *Performance*
> 
> 
> *Never exceed speed:* 350 km/h (189 knots, 217 mph) in dive
> *Maximum speed:* 315 km/h (170 knots, 196 mph) in level flight
> *Cruise speed:* 270 km/h (146 knots, 168 mph)
> *Range:* 545 km (339 miles)
> *Combat radius:* 470 km (294 mi)
> *Ferry range:* 1,160 km (720 mi) with 4 drop tanks
> *Service ceiling:* 5,500 m (18,000 ft)
> *Rate of climb:* 10 m/s (32.8 ft/s)
> *Disc loading:* 30 kg/m² (6 lb/ft²)
> *Power/mass:* 0.33 kW/kg (0.20 hp/lb)
> *Armament*
> 
> 
> *Guns:* 1x mobile semi-rigid 30 mm Shipunov 2A42 cannon (460 rounds total, dual feeding AP or HE-Frag)
> *Hardpoints:* 6 with a capacity of 2,000 kg and provisions to carry combinations of:
> *Rockets:* 80 x 80 mm S-8 rockets and 20 x 122 mm S-13 rocket,
> *Missiles:* 2 x APU-6 Missile racks, able to accommodate a total of 12 9K121 Vikhr anti-tank missiles, Vympel R-73 (NATO: AA-11 _Archer_) air-to-air missiles, Kh-25 semi-active laser guided tactical air-to-ground missiles
> *Bombs:* 4x 250 kg (550 lb) bombs or 2x 500 kg (1,100 lb) bombs,
> *Other:* 23 mm UPK-23-250 gun pods (240 rounds each), 500 L (130 US gal) external fuel tanks. Reportedly, twin Igla light air-to-air missile launchers under each wingtip countermeasure pod (total 4 missiles).[34]
> 
> Two pods on the wingtips with flare and chaff countermeasure dispensers, 4 UV-26 dispensers each (total 512 chaff/flare cartridges in each pod)


russian embargo doesn't mean that they will offer us pakfa and ka-52


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## DV RULES

Most of members just shooting in the air over Russian technology, Russia may throw tuna hook and many will go to be caught but in my point of view it is good chance for Pakistan to develop trustful relations which could lead them to sophisticated military technology rather than looking over wish list.


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## Jango

Why don't we just buy the whole Russian Army while we are at it eh?

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## Shabi1

Although impressive the KA-50/52 actually has lower performance specs compared to the Mi-28. Even Russia hasn't inducted it in large numbers.

Lets just concentrate on what we really need for our internal threats, Mi-17s & Mi-26s for transport and Mi-35s for our war against the militants.


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## nomi007

Ex-Jordanian AH-1S Cobra and AS-330 Puma from PAA.
Pak Army operates one squadron of these former Jordanian Cobra attack helicopters.

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## nomi007

*9-min colored footage shows Iraqi Mi-35 Gunship Helicopter attacking ISIS positions in Mosul*


Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

this shows performance of mi-35

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## nomi007

it is better to lease
ah-1w from usa for 2-3 years


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## Capt.Popeye

nomi007 said:


> it is better to lease
> ah-1w from usa for 2-3 years



Maybe.
But the question is this: is the USA willing to lease /sell /lend them in the first place?



Fulcrum15 said:


> Why don't we just buy the whole Russian Army while we are at it eh?




Is there a "Clearance Sale" on in Russia now?


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## Shabi1

Even if go ahead given, new build Gunships would take time to induct.

With the operation in full swing. Quickest gunship solution would be more second hand Cobras, they can be rushed into service immediately after maintenance work. Approx 10 units might be needed to give breathing space so that the planners can take their time with the actual Cobra replacement decision. What would be Pakistan's options for more Cobras other than US?

Also Jordan recently acquired Airbus modified CN-235 aircrafts converted to gunships for counter insurgency operations and patrolling. The aircraft were acquired second hand and then converted, its being called a budget gunship. How would you people rank it against a Helicopter gunship. It could be a complimenting addition for PA (2-4 units). Pakistan already uses the CN-235 in a transport role.

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## nomi007

Capt.Popeye said:


> Maybe.
> But the question is this: is the USA willing to lease /sell /lend them in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a "Clearance Sale" on in Russia now?


usa will provide due to some reasons
1st 1 is 
we are fighting their war


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## Capt.Popeye

nomi007 said:


> usa will provide due to some reasons
> 1st 1 is
> we are fighting their war



I don't think that they think like that!
Nor do they even care.


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## nomi007

advance


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> advance


 
so we are still at the 'yakeen-dayhani' stage!!!


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## Devil Soul

*Army aviation's capacity building necessary: Army chief | Pakistan | Dunya News
Army aviation base's self-dependence and capacity-building is necessary, he said.*

RAWALPINDI (Dunya News) – Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif visited Army Aviation Base here on Wednesday where the overhauling of helicopters is underway. Army Chief said that Army aviation’s self-dependence for operational preparations and capacity building is highly important, Dunya News reported.
According to Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), the overhauling of military helicopters is underway at the aviation base workshop. The first batch of the overhauling the helicopters has been completed at the base.
This is the first workshop of its kind established in Pakistan with the cooperation of Saint Petersburg Aviation Repairing Company.
Army Chief visited the workshop at the aviation base and checked the overhauled helicopters. He congratulated aviation base’s engineers and technicians. He said on this occasion that army aviation base’s self-dependence for operational preparations and capacity building is necessary given the growing challenges.

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## Jango

What kind of overhaul are we talking about?

Mi-17?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Devil Soul said:


> *Army aviation's capacity building necessary: Army chief | Pakistan | Dunya News
> Army aviation base's self-dependence and capacity-building is necessary, he said.*
> 
> RAWALPINDI (Dunya News) – Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif visited Army Aviation Base here on Wednesday where the overhauling of helicopters is underway. Army Chief said that Army aviation’s self-dependence for operational preparations and capacity building is highly important, Dunya News reported.
> According to Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), the overhauling of military helicopters is underway at the aviation base workshop. The first batch of the overhauling the helicopters has been completed at the base.
> This is the first workshop of its kind established in Pakistan with the cooperation of Saint Petersburg Aviation Repairing Company.
> Army Chief visited the workshop at the aviation base and checked the overhauled helicopters. He congratulated aviation base’s engineers and technicians. He said on this occasion that army aviation base’s self-dependence for operational preparations and capacity building is necessary given the growing challenges.



Good luck n may Allah protect your brother n the soldiers on the frontlines..ameen,

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## Devil Soul



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## Jango

Devil Soul said:


>



Good news.

Now the Cobra is the only heli which we can't overhaul in house.

PAF already has a Mi-17 overhaul facility over at PAF Faisal.

BTW, would be interesting to know whether the capability to overhaul engine and transmission has also been achieved or not.

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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*India unhappy at Russia's Mi-35 sale to Pakistan*
*Rahul Bedi, New Delhi and James Hardy, London* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
23 June 2014

India's defence links with Russia are under strain following Moscow's recent decision to supply Mi-35 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Pakistan.

Senior Indian officials are closely monitoring Russian attempts to sell an unspecified number of Mi-35s to Pakistan: a move that would tear up a decades-old informal understanding between Delhi and Moscow against supplying Islamabad any materiel.

"By offering to sell military equipment to Pakistan, the Russians are, in all probability, trying to arm-twist India from sourcing its defence requirements from alternate suppliers," former Indian Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash told _IHS Jane's_ . "Such tactics should not intimidate India's new administration."

Pakistan's national security and foreign affairs adviser Sartaj Aziz travelled to Moscow to thank Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov for the helicopters on 21 June, just two days after Indian leaders raised concerns in New Delhi with visiting Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin.

Aziz also "expressed the hope that Pakistan's further request for defence equipment would also be considered soon as part of our continued defence collaboration", a 20 June Pakistan Foreign Office statement said.

It remains unclear how many Mi-35s Russia has agreed to supply and the status of negotiations. The Pakistan Army's existing attack helicopter fleet is made up of a mix of AH-1F/S Cobras supplied by the United States. These are used to provide surveillance, attack, and close air support to ground forces engaging militants in the Tribal Areas and surrounds.

Official sources in Delhi said Rogozin had provided "ambiguous" assurances to Indian foreign minister Sushma Swaraj that Indian and Russian military ties would not be jeopardised by the sale to Pakistan.

Rogozin was in Delhi to reaffirm Moscow's defence ties with Prime Minister Narendra Modi's newly installed BJP-led government. His visit followed a 4 June statement by the Russian ambassador to India Alexander M Kadakin, who said Moscow would not do anything that would be "detrimental" to the deep strategic partnership between Delhi and Moscow.

Russia has been India's largest weapons supplier since the early 1960s, but since 2000 its monopoly has been gradually diluted by Israel, European states, and the United States.

Moscow still supplies 75.7% of India's defence equipment, followed by the US (6.8%) and Israel (5.2%). It also provides India technical assistance with some of its more classified strategic programmes, such as its nuclear-powered attack submarines.

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## nomi007

Fulcrum15 said:


> Good news.
> 
> Now the Cobra is the only heli which we can't overhaul in house.
> 
> PAF already has a Mi-17 overhaul facility over at PAF Faisal.
> 
> BTW, would be interesting to know whether the capability to overhaul engine and transmission has also been achieved or not.


cobra is going to retired soon
hope paa will get more advance attack helicopter


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## Jango

Got it confirmed that this ceremony meant that we can now also overhaul engines and transmission of Mi-17 along with the structure.

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## nomi007

*complete story of MIL MI-17 overhaul program*
Overhaul of Mi-17 Helicopters to Support the ‪Pakistan‬’s Army Aviation Command (PAAC) 

In March 2009, FTA received a contract from Northrop Grumman Counter Narcotics Global Support (CNGS) to overhaul 
three Mi-17 helicopters belonging to Pakistan’s Army Aviation Command (PAAC). Under FTA management, the aircraft 
were sent to Saint Peters burg, Russia for overhaul at an OEM certified overhaul facility. After surmounting numerable 
logistical and technical problems, the overhauls were completed 45 days ahead of schedule and on 19 July 2009, the three 
aircraft were loaded onto an An-124 transport, flown to Pakistan, and handed over to PAAC. The aircraft were 
immediately put to work supporting the Pakistani Army in its counter-insurgency operations and rescue missions in the 
north-west regions. 

As of today, FTA has provided 1500-hour overhaul services for 22 Mi-17 helicopters. Services for these helicopters has 
included: 
1. Inspection to determine extent of overhaul required 
2. Updating aircraft assessment reports 
3. Overhauling Mi-17 helicopters in accordance with OEM standards, including Russian IAC certification 
requirements 
4. Performing post-overhaul test flights for the overhauled Mi-17 at the overhaul facility 
5. Providing final inspection and test flight report documenting proof of compliance with applicable airworthiness 
regulations. 

As a result of successful performance, FTA has developed strategic relationships with Russian aviation government 
entities responsible for the allocation, regulation, policy, and overall authority over the Mi-series of helicopters. These 
strategic relationships span the categories of support to critical to ensuring the USG receives fully certified aircraft, with 
completely authentic components that are safe for operational use.

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## nomi007

RMY General Raheel Sharif, COAS getting out of newly overhauled MI-17 helicopter at Qasim Aviation Base, Dhamial Rawalpindi . Helicopter has been overhauled in Pakistan in collaboration with Saint Petersberg Aviation Repair Company.

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## chauvunist

Just in... A PAA helicopter crashed in Multan,2 officers are reported martyred...


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## Fahad Khan 2

chauvunist said:


> Just in... A PAA helicopter crashed in Multan,2 officers are reported martyred...




Which one Mi17??


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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> Ex-Jordanian AH-1S Cobra and AS-330 Puma from PAA.
> Pak Army operates one squadron of these former Jordanian Cobra attack helicopters.



hahah i just noticed! Cobra has a Jesus nut!


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## Inception-06

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> Which one Mi17??



Cobra Ah-1


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## fatman17

*Two pilots martyred in army helicopter crash *

June 26, 2014 - Updated 055 PKT 
From Web Edition






*MULTAN: Two pilots were martyred Wednesday when an army helicopter crashed in Multan while carrying out a training exercise, military officials said.*
"Two army aviation pilots embraced martyrdom when their helicopter crashed during a night flying training mission due to a technical fault at Multan tonight," the military said in a statement.
A senior military official told AFP that a dust storm that hit the aviation base as the helicopter was taking off could have been a factor in the crash.
The official and the statement did not give the type of helicopter, but army has Russian and American helicopters in its fleet. (AFP)

another Cobra crash!


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## nomi007

salute to those pilots who fly coffin cobras
shameful attitude both by military and govtwhy they are not replacing them
there is urgent need to replace ah-1 & uh-1 with latest and advance helos
yar jis se be karo wz-10 lo ya t-129 jo be lena hai lo par le lo

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## fatman17

*Two Killed in Pakistan Army Helicopter Crash*
June 26th, 2014 


A PAKISTAN Army Aviation Corps helicopter crashed on the runway at Multan Army Aviation Base due to a technical fault […]


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## fatman17



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## nomi007

*Pakistani Cobra Crash Further Stresses Tired Fleet*
*ISLAMABAD* — The fatal crash of a Pakistan AH-1F Cobra helicopter gunship during a night training mission Wednesday has further whittled down the well-worn fleet at a time when it is engaged in efforts to cleanse North Waziristan of the Taliban and its allies.

Though the type of helicopter was not specified in any reports or statements, official sources gave off-the-record confirmation to Defense News that it was a Cobra gunship.

Though the cause of the crash, which killed the two crew, is still being investigated, it is thought a dust storm that blew up over the base in Multan, which is home to the Army’s aviation arm, was a factor.

Pakistan has been desperately trying to replace its 1980s era Cobra fleet for years, but has only managed to acquire a small number of surplus AH-1Fs from the US and ex-Jordanian helos.

However, analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the platform could soldier on until a replacement is found.

“I think the Cobra fleet would endure for a while. We have excellent maintenance and now overhaul facilities for them,” he said.

A small number of armed Airbus Helicopters AS550C3 Fennec helicopters were ordered to support the Cobras, but there is no sign yet of them in service.

Former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, said 10 may have been ordered alongside the unarmed variant (of which one may have crashed in Islamabad in March 2011), but he is unsure if they were actually delivered.

Pakistan has not been able to obtain assistance from the US in this area. Efforts to acquire the AH-64 Apache were rebuffed by Washington, and what was considered the most likely alternative, the AH-1Z Viper, now also appears unlikely to be supplied.

This has left the Turkish TAI T-129 and the Chinese CAIC WZ-10 as the types most likely to replace the Cobra over the long term.

Turkey has attempted to sell the T-129 to Pakistan. It offered an initial number of T-129s free of charge and help to set up an assembly facility at the home of Pakistan’s aviation industry in Kamra, near Islamabad.

However, China is also reportedly offering its WZ-10, and even Turkish officials admit Beijing will be able to offer more flexible payment options.

To complicate matters further, Pakistan is also negotiating with Russia for a number of Mi-35 Hind gunships.

Pakistan already has a small number of Hind gunships that it acquired from defecting Afghan crews in the 1980s, and there has been talk of refurbishing them and bringing them into service.

But Cloughley says these airframes “are past usability.”

He is optimistic, though, that a deal will soon be signed.

“I don’t know the status of the Mi-35 deal, but Moscow is very keen to provide them and it only needs a go-ahead for things to move swiftly,” he said.

Another possible alternative, he said, is the Sikorsky Battlehawk.

The AH-60L Battlehawk has been ordered by the UAE, but Shabbir is unsure if Pakistan will opt for this.

“Maybe if it comes from US funding; it is not a dedicated gunship like Cobra, so the need to find a replacement for Cobras will still be there,” he said.

Cloughley, however, says finances again may force the decision.

“The Chinese machine apparently on offer, the Z-10, doesn’t measure up to the Mi-35 or go anywhere near the Battlehawk, but of course, as usual, it will all come down to money,” he said.

“I think in the long run the Chinese option seems more feasible during to better financial and wider weapons package,” Shabbir said.

Pakistani Cobra Crash Further Stresses Tired Fleet | Defense News | defensenews.com

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## fatman17

*Fatal Pakistan Army Crash Involved AH-1 Cobra*
June 27th, 2014 


IT HAS now been confirmed that the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps helicopter which crashed on the runway at Multan Army […]


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## fatman17

*Pakistan Army Aviation Milestones:*

1947-58: army aviation pilots were trained in the UK.
1959: the Air Observation Post (AOP) was established at Chaklala.
1961: the AOP shifts to Dhamial for fixed-wing pilot training.
1964: the AOP facility was re-named Army Aviation School after helicopters joined the PAA.
1987: the Army Aviation School moves to Rahwali.

the school flies on average 12,000 hours a year, amounting to 32 flying hours a day!
each year more than 170 officers apply for a place at the Aviation School.

in the early 1970's the PA along with the PAF set about looking for an L-19 (O-1 Birddog) replacement in the basic trainer role.

the MFI-17 Saab Supporter, later known as Mushshak was selected.

1976: Saab delivered Semi-KD kits and complete KD kits to PAC-Kamra where they were assembled.
1977: PAA took delivery of Mushshak at Dhamial (now Qasim).
1993: with a need to replace the ageing Bell 47 light helicopters, a batch of Schweizwer (now Sikorsky) TH-300C's were acquired and eventually supplemented by more.

EME: responsibility for the overall maintenance of the Mushshaks and Sikorsky TH-300C at Rahwali falls upon the Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (EME) Battalion.

the Mission is to train the pilots of the tri-services and allied nations on fixed-wing and rotary aircraft.

extracted from AFM

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## nomi007



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## nomi007




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## nomi007




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## Sulman Badshah

nomi007 said:


>


Love that Turret


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


>


 
coming to a theater near you.....soon



nomi007 said:


>


 
Ameen!

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## fatman17



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## fatman17




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## fatman17




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## FNFAL

Does pak army operate armed variants of the Fennec??


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## fatman17

FNFAL said:


> Does pak army operate armed variants of the Fennec??


 
yes indeed.

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## FNFAL

fatman17 said:


> yes indeed.


Thanks. Do you have a pic of the same?
The ones i came up with show a fennec with a gun pod on the starboard side, but that appears circa 90s. Any recent one?


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## fatman17

FNFAL said:


> Thanks. Do you have a pic of the same?
> The ones i came up with show a fennec with a gun pod on the starboard side, but that appears circa 90s. Any recent one?


 
will try to find one. 10 examples were purchased for armed reccee.

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## fatman17



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## Side-Winder

nomi007 said:


>



The ranks show he is a captain. or pic might be old?


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## nomi007

Side-Winder said:


> The ranks show he is a captain. or pic might be old?


old pic


----------



## Windjammer

*Albeit this Chopper supports markings of PAF, either way i haven't seen one carrying such a load.*

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## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> *Albeit this Chopper supports markings of PAF, either way i haven't seen one carrying such a load.*


wonder what it can be?
fuel bombs? supplies of water tanks or fuel tanks?

@FunkyGen man look at that chopper all we need is a nozzle at the front of the cockpit and its pipe running down to the tanks.. and all the pilot needs to do is light up his lighter and .. walah.. you have a functioning flame thrower ..
sometimes you have to think out side the helicopter.. (I was inspired by your creative posts with me and Icarus so I am forwarding this idea to aviation branch)

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## fatman17

Irfan Baloch said:


> wonder what it can be?
> fuel bombs? supplies of water tanks or fuel tanks?
> 
> @FunkyGen man look at that chopper all we need is a nozzle at the front of the cockpit and its pipe running down to the tanks.. and all the pilot needs to do is light up his lighter and .. walah.. you have a functioning flame thrower ..
> sometimes you have to think out side the helicopter.. (I was inspired by your creative posts with me and Icarus so I am forwarding this idea to aviation branch)


 
extra fuel tanks - PAF has a few for their SAR / SSG.

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## Irfan Baloch

fatman17 said:


> extra fuel tanks - PAF has a few for their SAR / SSG.


extra fuel tanks for longer flight time? 
if they are meant to be used by SSG missions then they are horrendously at risk of explosion through enemy fire

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## fatman17

Irfan Baloch said:


> extra fuel tanks for longer flight time?
> if they are meant to be used by SSG missions then they are horrendously at risk of explosion through enemy fire


 
this figuration is mostly for SAR and ferry flight but the AF SSG also use these Mi-17s not in this figuration though.
the pic is of a Army Aviation Mi-17I

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## Irfan Baloch

fatman17 said:


> this figuration is mostly for SAR and ferry flight but the AF SSG also use these Mi-17s not in this figuration though.
> the pic is of a Army Aviation Mi-17I


understood sir. makes perfect sense

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## fatman17

Irfan Baloch said:


> understood sir. makes perfect sense


 
final point:- russian systems are notorious for their high fuel consumption.

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> this figuration is mostly for SAR and ferry flight but the AF SSG also use these Mi-17s not in this figuration though.
> the pic is of a Army Aviation Mi-17I


For the same effort, can these fuel tanks be replaced with Rocket-Pods or other weapons.??

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> For the same effort, can these fuel tanks be replaced with Rocket-Pods or other weapons.??


 
yes but i'm not sure the Russians have provided these to us.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> yes but i'm not sure the Russians have provided these to us.




But soon they would.......

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> But soon they would.......


 
its a good to have but if you have the Mi-35, why would you need this set-up.


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## nomi007

Bell UH-1 Huey
Aerospatiale SA.316 Alouette III
Bell 206 Jet Ranger
*Aérospatiale Alouette II*
these are the old junk utility helicopters of PAA 
best option to replace them with new and advance chinese helos
*Z-9W*
*



*
*Z-11*
*



*
*HC-120 Colibri*
*



*






cost effective & tot also possible


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## nomi007




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## Inception-06

nomi007 said:


> Bell UH-1 Huey
> Aerospatiale SA.316 Alouette III
> Bell 206 Jet Ranger
> *Aérospatiale Alouette II*
> these are the old junk utility helicopters of PAA
> best option to replace them with new and advance chinese helos
> *Z-9W*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *Z-11*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *HC-120 Colibri*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> View attachment 37361
> 
> 
> cost effective & tot also possible



OMG such posts must be stopped "Army has to buy this and that", if so than write, define and explain it plz but not this Nishan Style "cheap and TOT" ^^ you have presented pictures of 4 Types of Helicopters with totally different roles......which one would you buy and why ?


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## Bossman

nomi007 said:


>


Do some research before you post, start using your brains and grow up. Pakistan does not have Alouette II and never did. It had Llamas in a specific high altitude role which have been retired. In fact the Alouette III are in process of being retired. Maybe a few Hueys and Jet Rangers still in service. Most of utility Helicopters are Mi17s, Pumas, Bell 412 and Fennecs.

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## fatman17

Bossman said:


> Do some research before you post, start using your brains and grow up. Pakistan does not have Alouette II and never did. It had Llamas in a specific high altitude role which have been retired. In fact the Alouette III are in process of being retired. Maybe a few Hueys and Jet Rangers still in service. Most of utility Helicopters are Mi17s, Pumas, Bell 412 and Fennecs.


 
upgraded Allouette III are still being used in the SAR role by PN/PAF. army Alouette III's are most likely retired from service.

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## Pak_Sher

fatman17 said:


> ASIA PACIFIC
> Date Posted: 22-Jan-2010
> 
> Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> *Pakistan looks to modernise fleet with AH-1Zs*
> 
> Craig Caffrey Jane's Aviation Analyst -London
> 
> *Pakistan is looking to acquire a number of AH-1Z attack helicopters as a medium-term replacement for its ageing Cobras.*
> 
> Washington expects Pakistan to purchase the Bell AH-1Z Viper (Super Cobra) as a medium-term replacement for its current fleet of AH-1F/S Cobra attack helicopters, according to a new report on US assistance for Islamabad.
> 
> *The US State Department's Pakistan Assistance Strategy Report, published in December 2009, states that the "Pakistan Army envisions acquiring 20 AH-1Z Cobras" at an expected cost of "at least USD500 million for the helicopters alone, with a total acquisition cost up to USD1 billion". The department expects that the army will seek US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) in order to facilitate the deal. *
> 
> *Deliveries could potentially proceed from 2015 onwards once the AH-1Z becomes available for export. However, requirements could be met before this date through either increased production or by allowing Pakistan to purchase units currently allocated for the US Marine Corps. Should the procurement proceed in this timeframe Pakistan could become the first export customer for the type. *
> 
> Pakistan's current fleet of 39 AH-1F/S Cobras have been heavily utilised as part of the country's ongoing counter-insurgency campaign and are seen by military planners in both countries as a key asset. Since 2007 the US has delivered 20 additional AH-1F Cobras to Pakistan in order to expand the capabilities of the army.
> 
> *In order to sustain the current capability at least eight aircraft from the army's existing inventory are due to be refurbished in the short term utilising roughly USD75 million in Fiscal Year 2009 Pakistan Counterinsurgency Funds. The modernisation programme has been seen as a priority since 2008, but progress on the programme has been slow as a result of complications within the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) process.*
> 
> *The US is also providing assistance for a programme to arm Pakistan's 24 Bell 412 utility helicopters as an interim measure until new attack helicopters can be acquired. *



Pakistan should continue to acquire US Weapons since they are superior in quality and reliability. Pakistan needs to have a strong inventory of attack helicopters in order to crush the terrorists for good.

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## fatman17

AB-205A / UH-1H





Bell 206 Jet Ranger


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## nomi007



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## Inception-06

nomi007 said:


>




are sure that this is a Pakistani Cobra ? ^^ I can read "states Army"


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## nomi007

Ulla said:


> are sure that this is a Pakistani Cobra ? ^^ I can read "states Army"


yp
man behind it in blue salwar qameez


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


>


 
these are EDA stocks transferred to Pakistan.


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## fatman17

*Mi-171Sh Combat-Transport Helicopter, Russia* 
* Key Data *

*Crew* Three
*Capacity* 36 troops or 12 stretchers / 4,000kg cargo internally or 4,000kg externally under slung
*Manufacturer* Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant
*Operators* Armed Forces of the Czech Republic, Peruvian Army, Peruvian Air Force and Russian Air Force
*Service Entry* 2002
*Armament* Shturm-V missile complex, S-8 unguided rockets and GSh-23L guns
*Engines* Two x Klimov TV3-117VM turboshafts




The Mi-171Sh helicopter is being produced by the Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant (UUAP), part of Russian Helicopters. It is a military transport variant of the Mi-171 helicopter. More than 120 helicopters have been delivered to customers in the Middle East, south-east Asia, Africa and eastern Europe.
The military transport helicopter was introduced into the world market in 2002. The helicopter is delivered through the Russian state-owned special exporter Rosoboronexport.
The Mi-171Sh can be deployed on a range of missions, including the airlifting of assault forces, transportation of cargoes, troop fire support, air-to-surface attack, escort of the military columns, medical evacuation and combat search and rescue (CSAR) operations.
*Orders and deliveries of the Russian helicopter*
The Mi-171Sh helicopters have been ordered by Russian allied partners, as well as Nato members. UUAP delivered 26 Mi-171Sh helicopters to Croatia and the Czech Republic between 2005 and 2008.
In 2009, the Russian Ministry of Defence ordered the Mi-171Sh as part of the modernisation programme of the Russian Armed Forces. UUAP delivered the first batch of ten Mi-171AMTSh (Russian designation of Mi-171Sh) helicopters in December 2010. The second batch of helicopters was delivered in June 2011.
The Peruvian Ministry of Defence placed an order for six Mi-171Sh helicopters in 2010. Three helicopters were delivered in May 2011. Deliveries were concluded in September of the same year. The helicopters are operated by the Peruvian Army and Air Force.
The Ghana Air Force placed an order with Rosoboronexport for six Mi-17Sh helicopters in September 2012. The first four helicopters were delivered in January 2013.
*Design of the Mi-171Sh military transport helicopter*
"Mi-171Sh helicopters have been ordered by Russian allied partners, as well as Nato members."
The Mi-171Sh was specifically designed for operating in combat missions in local armed conflicts. The design incorporates a five-bladed main rotor, a tail rotor and non-retractable tricycle nose-wheel landing gear.
The glassed-in cockpit accommodates three crew and cabin houses up to 36 troops, or up to 12 casualties on stretchers. The helicopters are equipped with modern avionics and instrumental equipment, to operate in all weather conditions at any time of the day.
The armour protection provided over the crew cabin and vital units increases the combat survivability of the helicopter. The engine exhaust ducts are equipped with infrared suppression exhaust mixer boxes for a low infrared signature.
The helicopter has an IR-decoy dispensing system to counter an infrared homing surface-to-air missile or air-to-air missile. The fuel tank self-sealing covers and polyurethane foam protection avoid the possibility of fuel explosions and leakage in case of combat damage.
*Weapons and missiles on the Russian helicopter*



_Two helicopters in-flight_
The Mi-171Sh is armed with a Shturm-V high-precision guided missile system. The missiles can destroy modern battle tanks protected by explosive reactive armour, fortified points and aerial targets.
The Shturm-V missile complex launches Ataka supersonic missiles equipped with a hollow-charge warhead for defeating armoured targets. The missile can destroy aerial targets with a fragmentation warhead and lightly armoured combat materiel by using a high-explosive warhead.
The Mi-171Sh is also provided with hardpoints to carry up to 80 S-8 unguided rockets and GSh-23L 23mm cannons, with an ammunition load of 500 rounds.
Small arms, such as the 7.62mm PKT machine gun, PK machine gun and RPK light machine gun, are mounted in the nose and rear fuselage sections. The gun pivots provided at the doorway and near the windows allow the onboard troops to operate these weapons during flight.
*Mi-171Sh engines and transportation capabilities*
The multifunctional cargo cabin has a length of 5.34m, width of 2.34m and a height of 1.8m. It provides enough internal space to carry 4,000kg of payload.
"The Mi-171Sh was specifically designed for operating in combat missions in local armed conflicts."
The helicopter can transport up to 4,000kg of cargo externally under sling. The main cabin features internal winch facilities, while the floor has tie-down rings for cargo transport. Either side of the fuselage is provided with a pod for an external fuel tank.
The Mi-171Sh is powered by two Klimov TV3-117VM turboshaft engines mounted on top of the fuselage. Each engine is rated at 1,641kW. The helicopter can be optionally fitted with two VK-2500 turboshaft engines, each rated at 2,700hp.
The Mi-171Sh can fly at a maximum altitude of 6,000m. The maximum speed of the helicopter is 250km/h. The range (without auxiliary fuel tanks) is 580km.
The helicopter has a maximum take-off weight of 13,000kg.
*The Global Military Aircraft Market 2011-2021*


another option for the PAA.

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## nomi007




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## FNFAL

nomi007 said:


> yp
> man behind it in blue salwar qameez


Nopes. Its from US army, circa 1993

And thats not a salwar..thats a trainer 

Source: Photos: Bell AH-1F Cobra (209) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net


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## nomi007

its PAK-ARMY AS550 Fennec light attack chopper.

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## nomi007

*Warplanes: The Perils Of Pakistan*
*July 12, 2014: Pakistan wants more helicopter gunships, in particular it wants some new helicopters rather than used stuff to supplement, and replace the 35 AH-1S and AH-1F gunships it already has. Three of these have been lost in the last few years in the tribal territories where helicopter gunships are badly needed, heavily used and frequently shot at. 


For years Pakistan tried to obtain the 6.6 ton AH-1W model from the United States. This would have been a major upgrade for the Pakistani helicopter gunship force. Developed by the U.S. Marine Corps the W model was configured for naval use, and has two engines and protection against sea water corrosion. Like the AH-1F model used by Pakistan, the AH-1W has a crew of two and is armed with a 20mm, 3 barrel, auto cannon (with 750 rounds) and can carry eight TOW missiles or 38 70mm unguided rockets. Typical sorties last about three hours (twice that of the AH-1F). The Pakistanis are also equipping their gunships with night vision (thermal imaging) equipment. 

 
The U.S. refused to supply Pakistan with the W model or any other modern versions. This included the more recent AH-1Z. The major user of the AH-1W, the U.S. Marine Corps, has re manufactured its 180 AH-1T/W attack helicopters into AH-1Z Viper models. This upgrade includes a new 4 bladed composite rotor system, transmission, strengthened structural components, and modern digital cockpit avionics. The first ones entered service in 2011. 

 
The U.S. has turned down Pakistani requests for any of these AH-1 models in an effort to persuade Pakistan to be more cooperative in dealing with Islamic terrorism. The Pakistanis repeatedly refuse and have pretty much given up on getting more AH-1s from the United States. Meanwhile Pakistan is seeking other helicopter gunships from China (WZ-10), Turkey (T-129) and Russia (Mi-35) as well as heavily armed commercial helicopters equipped with electronics similar to those used on gunships. None of these other options has worked out, not yet anyway. Part of the problem is that Pakistan has little cash to spend on new or used helicopter gunships and is hoping for a gift, or big discount from someone. There’s not a lot of that around for Pakistan, which provides sanctuary to Islamic terrorists who are hostile to all the nations that could provide new helicopters. 

*


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## fatman17

this is the beast we should go for...

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## Shabi1

There is still debate within Russia on KA-50/52 Vs Mi-28. On a side by side specs comparison the Mi-28 wins.

Lets just wait and see how the Mi-35s turn out, no need to think ahead. AH-1Z Cobras are still the most capable Gunships of all the options when doing a spec comparison and they will be available in 2015. PA probably is still waiting to rule them out before opting for any of the other Gunships (WZ-10/T-129/Mi-28) so I dont expect PA will confirm its decision for the new Gunship for at least another year.

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## nomi007

Shabi1 said:


> There is still debate within Russia on KA-50/52 Vs Mi-28. On a side by side specs comparison the Mi-28 wins.
> 
> Lets just wait and see how the Mi-35s turn out, no need to think ahead. AH-1Z Cobras are still the most capable Gunships of all the options when doing a spec comparison and they will be available in 2015. PA probably is still waiting to rule them out before opting for any of the other Gunships (WZ-10/T-129/Mi-28) so I dont expect PA will confirm its decision for the new Gunship for at least another year.


o bhai paise nai hain
na shiekh chilli bano


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## Shabi1

Pakistan isnt that cash strapped. Its easier to divert funds to personal accounts when spent on development projects thats why the previous and current government diverted funds to development projects. The metro buses, laptops and those failed power plants etc...... are all extravagantly costed.


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## fatman17

Shabi1 said:


> Pakistan isnt that cash strapped. Its easier to divert funds to personal accounts when spent on development projects thats why the previous and current government diverted funds to development projects. The metro buses, laptops and those failed power plants etc...... are all extravagantly costed.


 
where there is a will, there is a way......funds are always there.


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## fatman17

Armed Bell 412P





Cobra at a FOB

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## thrilainmanila

the pak army won't go for the MI-28 Or KA-52(It has a double rotor and is difficult to maintain). buying an MI-28 Or KA-52 is almost like buying a fighter jet. the maintenance costs would be something pak army won't be able to afford, they'll probably end up getting that turkish chopper or more likely surplus cobras, I doubt they even go for the MI-35(its too heavy and cumbersome)


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## fatman17

thrilainmanila said:


> the pak army won't go for the MI-28 Or KA-52(It has a double rotor and is difficult to maintain). buying an MI-28 Or KA-52 is almost like buying a fighter jet. the maintenance costs would be something pak army won't be able to afford, they'll probably end up getting that turkish chopper or more likely surplus cobras, I doubt they even go for the MI-35(its too heavy and cumbersome)


 
its the ANF who want the Mi-35 for anti-narcotics / smuggling ops.


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## fatman17

Bell 412P

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## nomi007

Pakistan ARMY Mil Mi-17 helicopter equipped with FLIR (Forward looking infrared) for special operations.

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## fatman17

Army Mil-17




Army Llama





Army S-500





Army Puma's FOB Azad Kashmir





Army Puma


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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 38743
> 
> this is the beast we should go for...


This is best for Anti armour mission .... But it can't be used in Counter insurgency roles 

Better to go for Mi 28



nomi007 said:


> Pakistan ARMY Mil Mi-17 helicopter equipped with FLIR




Mi 17 as well as some of C130 are also equipped with FLIR


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## khanboy007

@fatman17 @Windjammer guys any info. on when we are getting our hands on the mi-35, any trial/evaluation versions or the ordered ones ???


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## nomi007

khanboy007 said:


> @fatman17 @Windjammer guys any info. on when we are getting our hands on the mi-35, any trial/evaluation versions or the ordered ones ???


bro donot worry PAA will purchase old mil mi-35

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## Ray_of_Hope

khanboy007 said:


> @fatman17 @Windjammer guys any info. on when we are getting our hands on the mi-35, any trial/evaluation versions or the ordered ones ???


This deal will be signed in 2015 and the deliveries will be started by 2017.Pakistan may get early deliveries if she purchases used mi 35 from russia

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## nomi007




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## fatman17

khanboy007 said:


> @fatman17 @Windjammer guys any info. on when we are getting our hands on the mi-35, any trial/evaluation versions or the ordered ones ???


 
i think the negotiations seem to be in an early stage.





Preserved Army Cessna O-1 Birddog (L-19)









Army Mushshak in similar livery

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## fatman17

Army llama

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## fatman17

Y-12 Utility

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## dexter

*Pakistan ARMY Eurocopter AS550 Fennec *U2 light attack chopper equipped with FLIR (Forward looking Infrared) on top for reconnaissance role.
Fennec has 2 hardpoints and can carry 12.7 mm machine gun pods and unguided rockets for ground attack.

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## Imran Khan

dexter said:


> *Pakistan ARMY Eurocopter AS550 Fennec *U2 light attack chopper equipped with FLIR (Forward looking Infrared) on top for reconnaissance role.
> Fennec has 2 hardpoints and can carry 12.7 mm machine gun pods and unguided rockets for ground attack.




never seen them in any action after arrival


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## dexter

Imran Khan said:


> never seen them in any action after arrival



Lets hope we will see them soon


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## Imran Khan

dexter said:


> Lets hope we will see them soon


what they are doing while forces need fire power at zarb e azb


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## dexter

Imran Khan said:


> what they are doing while forces need fire power at zarb e azb



who knows they are providing air support


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> what they are doing while forces need fire power at zarb e azb


 
deployed in Kashmir/Gilget.
for zarb-e-azb, cobras and armed bell-412 are sufficient.

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## Shabi1

dexter said:


> *Pakistan ARMY Eurocopter AS550 Fennec *U2 light attack chopper equipped with FLIR (Forward looking Infrared) on top for reconnaissance role.
> Fennec has 2 hardpoints and can carry 12.7 mm machine gun pods and unguided rockets for ground attack.




The AS550s Fennecs were inducted to replace the Bell 206s which perform scout duty.

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## Danish saleem

dexter said:


> *Pakistan ARMY Eurocopter AS550 Fennec *U2 light attack chopper equipped with FLIR (Forward looking Infrared) on top for reconnaissance role.
> Fennec has 2 hardpoints and can carry 12.7 mm machine gun pods and unguided rockets for ground attack.


what about the numbers, we procured?


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## fatman17

Danish saleem said:


> what about the numbers, we procured?


 
batch of 10. more on the way.....

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## Rashid Mahmood

Pakistan Army AS550 Fennec Light Military Helicopter..





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152587982554919

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## fatman17

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Pakistan Army AS550 Fennec Light Military Helicopter..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152587982554919


 
good against thin-skined targets - very agile.

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## Jango

2 helicopters were delivered on schedule but after some flights PAA pointed out some problems with the engines and intakes etc. So the schedule got offset.

Now deliveries are a go...saw one flying over Islamabad a week or so back.


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## SQ8

Shabi1 said:


> The AS550s Fennecs were inducted to replace the Bell 206s which perform scout duty.


Is that from a red and white bound book??



Fulcrum15 said:


> 2 helicopters were delivered on schedule but after some flights PAA pointed out some problems with the engines and intakes etc. So the schedule got offset.
> 
> Now deliveries are a go...saw one flying over Islamabad a week or so back.


Imagine if you can give these things something like the Roketsan Cirit

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## Jango

Oscar said:


> Imagine if you can give these things something like the Roketsan Cirit



Well we can Imagine a whole lot of stuff!

But I don't see why we can't modify these helis later on. 

Would give at least the CObras a decent back up.

The previous Scout helis were just junk TBH.


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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> Imagine if you can give these things something like the Roketsan Cirit



Shouldn't the Cobras be a more likely platform for the Cirits ? 

These Fennecs look like the next generation Hueys & weren't the Hueys more like mobile troop carriers & ambulances & limited close air support as opposed to platforms sporting ATGM ? 

And what you said about that 'tainted thing' means we'd be going to war !


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## Jango

Armstrong said:


> Shouldn't the Cobras be a more likely platform for the Cirits ?
> 
> These Fennecs look like the next generation Hueys & weren't the Hueys more like mobile troop carriers & ambulances & limited close air support as opposed to platforms sporting ATGM ?
> 
> And what you said about that 'tainted thing' means we'd be going to war !



Nope.

Thses Fennecs aren't troop carriers or CASEVAC platforms. 

They are to be used in the scout role in tandem with the Cobras. The Jet Rangers had nil offensive capability while these helis do have some. With the Cobras already stretched beyond imagination,this is a good option to go by.

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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> Shouldn't the Cobras be a more likely platform for the Cirits ?
> 
> These Fennecs look like the next generation Hueys & weren't the Hueys more like mobile troop carriers & ambulances & limited close air support as opposed to platforms sporting ATGM ?
> 
> And what you said about that 'tainted thing' means we'd be going to war !



Cobra's as well. The Cirit(and APKWS) is a wonderful system for what it offers. The ability to have essentially 50+ guided munitions that you can fire off in rapid succession to kill a target. However, that depends on whether the Cirits have a fire and forget mode like the Hellfire...although that would require a MMW radar and essentially drive up costs. 

The Huey still has a bit more space in it, the Fennec is the ideal replacement for the Jetranger. And with a system like the Cirit, it can also become an excellent support for our attack helo's by letting them take the tanks while it hits the light skinned vehicles that follow.


And we are at WAR Bhatta, Im already planning to sleep with your women and cleanse them with my better genetics. Bwahahahaa 


Off the topic, look into the following article.Might be useful to understand why doctrinal differences effect the sort of purchases made by different nations.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/usaf/afdd/2-1-1/afdd2-1-1.pdf

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## fatman17

ex-Jordanian AH-1F's at Multan

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 40353
> 
> 
> View attachment 40354
> ex-Jordanian AH-1F's at Multan



How many Jordanian Cobras were procured?



Oscar said:


> Cobra's as well. The Cirit(and APKWS) is a wonderful system for what it offers. The ability to have essentially 50+ guided munitions that you can fire off in rapid succession to kill a target. However, that depends on whether the Cirits have a fire and forget mode like the Hellfire...although that would require a MMW radar and essentially drive up costs.
> 
> The Huey still has a bit more space in it, the Fennec is the ideal replacement for the Jetranger. And with a system like the Cirit, it can also become an excellent support for our attack helo's by letting them take the tanks while it hits the light skinned vehicles that follow.
> 
> 
> And we are at WAR Bhatta, Im already planning to sleep with your women and cleanse them with my better genetics. Bwahahahaa
> 
> 
> Off the topic, look into the following article.Might be useful to understand why doctrinal differences effect the sort of purchases made by different nations.
> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/usaf/afdd/2-1-1/afdd2-1-1.pdf



Even if it requires a MMW radar, i am sure a snap on package could be devised with collaboration from Turkey itself or some other European source. After all, they did modify the old but trusty Hercules with the FLIR and these Fennecs come with that too.

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> How many Jordanian Cobras were procured?
> 
> 
> 
> Even if it requires a MMW radar, i am sure a snap on package could be devised with collaboration from Turkey itself or some other European source. After all, they did modify the old but trusty Hercules with the FLIR and these Fennecs come with that too.


 
between 13-16 examples. 8 have been inducted for military ops while the rest are kept in strategic reserve.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> between 13-16 examples. 8 have been inducted for military ops while the rest are kept in strategic reserve.



There were some extra delivered by USA back in Mushy time, so i am assuming the Cobras now number 40 or more?


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> between 13-16 examples. 8 have been inducted for military ops while the rest are kept in strategic reserve.



And almost half of those in "Strategic reserve" have been sawed off with chainsaws!!!


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## Sulman Badshah

Shabi1 said:


> The AS550s Fennecs were inducted to replace the Bell 206s which perform scout duty.



Fennec is meant to replace Alloutte III for high altitude ops


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## nomi007



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## Jango

Sulman Badshah said:


> Fennec is meant to replace Alloutte III for high altitude ops



That's the Ecueril.

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> There were some extra delivered by USA back in Mushy time, so i am assuming the Cobras now number 40 or more?


 
after 3 attrition losses 37.

in service.




Z-10H

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## CiciHoriOzK

at "war"? really?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

CiciHoriOzK said:


> at "war"? really?


Almost 6,000 soldiers,policemen dead.. Over 50,000 ppl dead.. No we are joking.

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## In arduis fidelis

Heard about MI-35 present in PAK undergoing evaluations,true or rumor??


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## fatman17

Rafay Jamil said:


> Heard about MI-35 present in PAK undergoing evaluations,true or rumor??


 
cant say really.....


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## fatman17

Pakistan Army Aviation.


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## fatman17

Armed UH-1H




Army Bird-Dog and Mushshak









Rockwell Commander Jetprop - De-commissioned.


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## fatman17

Frontier Corps Jet Ranger





AH-1F with weapons display.

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## Armstrong

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Almost 6,000 soldiers,policemen *dead.*. Over 50,000 ppl dead.. No we are joking.



Martyred brother....martyred - This sounds a bit more respectful to our honored dead !

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## fatman17

AH-1F





Induction of ex-RJ Cobra at Multan

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Armstrong said:


> Martyred brother....martyred - This sounds a bit more respectful to our honored dead !


Do you think they respect our Fallen/Martyrs?

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## Malghani

Awesome


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## nomi007

south African modernize old Algerian mil mi-35 in to most advance attack helo
good idea for paa

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## fatman17

Chinese Mi-17 in Pakistan - 2010


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## SQ8

flightglobal has other ideas



> recent reports have linked Pakistan as the latest potential customer for the Mi-28NE.


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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> flightglobal has other ideas



Ajeeb bandaa haiii tu.....can't you womanizing your way into the heart of Sarah Palin or something & through her get Pakistan the much wanted Cobras ?  

Now is the time to serve your country, my Brother !


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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> Ajeeb bandaa haiii tu.....can't you womanizing your way into the heart of Sarah Palin or something & through her get Pakistan the much wanted Cobras ?
> 
> Now is the time to serve your country, my Brother !



Or perhaps I could shave you clean, dress you up as a school girl and offer you to the french to get us the Tigre 
Or send you to Turkey to be the next Sumbul Agha?

What is important to figure is why the PA is focusing on Russian equipment; logistics. Both the Mi-28NE and the Mi-35 are powered by the same engines that power the Mi-17 fleet.

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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> Or perhaps I could shave you clean, dress you up as a school girl and offer you to the french to get us the Tigre
> Or send you to Turkey to be the next Sumbul Agha?



Even you can't be that cruel ? 



Oscar said:


> What is important to figure is why the PA is focusing on Russian equipment; logistics. Both the Mi-28NE and the Mi-35 are powered by the same engines that power the Mi-17 fleet.



Do we really think that the Russians are finally over their hangover from the Cold War where the Pakistanis were in the American Camp & the Indians were in their Camp & that now we can really see some sort of a partnership forming or having the potential to form without the Indians vetoing it ?


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## fatman17

Armstrong said:


> Even you can't be that cruel ?
> 
> 
> 
> Do we really think that the Russians are finally over their hangover from the Cold War where the Pakistanis were in the American Camp & the Indians were in their Camp & that now we can really see some sort of a partnership forming or having the potential to form without the Indians vetoing it ?


 
too early to say this....

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## fatman17

Inspecting the Mi-28N attack helo....

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 43172
> 
> Inspecting the Mi-28N attack helo....



Inspection was years ago !


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## fatman17



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## fatman17

PAA - Pioneering days - Dhamial

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## Junaid Ashraf

Will PAA going to get any how Super Cobra AH-1Ws with upgrade from US.


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## fatman17

Junaid Ashraf said:


> Will PAA going to get any how Super Cobra AH-1Ws with upgrade from US.


 
they would like to.....


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## nomi007

Modern Choppers of Pakistan Army Aviation.
Bell-412EP gunship chopper and IAR-330 Puma chopper in background.


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## fatman17

Cobra & Birddog

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## syedali73

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 43185


Some of the PA Cobras appear to have IRCM whereas others not. For instance, I have not seen IRCM on the Cobras procured from Jordan. I have two questions here:

1. IRCM on PA Cobras is standard installation or only few Cobras have them?
2. Which IRCM PA Cobras have, AN/ALQ-144, or AN/ALQ-147?

Appreciate your reply.


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## fatman17

syedali73 said:


> Some of the PA Cobras appear to have IRCM whereas others not. For instance, I have not seen IRCM on the Cobras procured from Jordan. I have two questions here:
> 
> 1. IRCM on PA Cobras is standard installation or only few Cobras have them?
> 2. Which IRCM PA Cobras have, AN/ALQ-144, or AN/ALQ-147?
> 
> Appreciate your reply.


 
about 20 Cobras have the AN/ALQ-144. however all were supposed to get them when upgraded to AH-1F standard.. whether they do now i cant say.

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## fatman17

Fennec AS-550





Bell 412EP





Commander





MFI-17





Mi-17

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## nomi007

my frnd in ser



rie leone share this pic

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## fatman17

NWA ops

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


>


and the reality is.....

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## fatman17

UN Mi-17 crashed during 2010 floods - Dadu.

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## nomi007

Exactly 5 years ago (26-August-2009) Pak Army launched Operation 'Thunderstorm' with the aim of retaking Buner, Lower Dir, Swat and Shangla districts from the Taliban after the militants took control of them since the start of the year.

This operation consisted of SSG units supported by PA units and PAF (for Close Air Support). PA moved 2 divisions from Okara & Gujranwala to initiate this massive operation.

Operation-Thunderstorm was the largest heliborne operation in history of Pak Army Aviation; in which SSG commandos were dropped on mountain tops to retake TTP claimed peaks & village.

Total of 1400+ militants were killed, 114 captured & 150 soldiers embraced Shaadat.

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## Hurter

Have Pakistan Army got MI-35 Helicopters?


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## Inception-06

Junaid B said:


> Have Pakistan Army got MI-35 Helicopters?



No !


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## fatman17

AW-139 Fire-Fighting over Margalla hills.




Mi-14PG Fire-Fighter under upgrade @ Ukraine.

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## nomi007



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## Bratva

An Army AS550 Fennec helicopter flies past during a rehearsal ahead of the country's Defence Day in Peshawar on September 5, 2014.

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## Jango

Damn...that must have been an awesome sight!


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## fatman17

Fennec of KPK Govt.

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## nomi007

*Pakistan's Force (AS550 Fennec) at Siachin - World's Highest Battlefield*
*


















*
*salute to paa and pak army*

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## fatman17

Perth, Australia

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## Sulman Badshah

is there any structural difference between Ecruil and fennec ????/


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## DESERT FIGHTER




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## fatman17

Heli-Skiing in the northern areas





Helisking with the PAA

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## fatman17

Fennec's are replacing the Ilama's gradually





detachment of AH-1S





Mi-17

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## Interceptor2014

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 48728
> 
> Fennec's are replacing the Ilama's gradually
> 
> View attachment 48729
> 
> detachment of AH-1S
> 
> View attachment 48730
> 
> Mi-17


I think and 100% sure that AC-130s can easily replace the AH-1s from the fleet. Also we can try to initiate the program of converting older Lama and AloutteeIII into Drones(not UAVs/UCAVs) as they can be sent durst on targets like in Kashmir or else where. Also we can do the same for FT-5s, F-6s, F-7, Mirages and A-5Cs which we have also along with other transport aircraft we are retiring.


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## fatman17

Interceptor2014 said:


> I think and 100% sure that AC-130s can easily replace the AH-1s from the fleet. Also we can try to initiate the program of converting older Lama and AloutteeIII into Drones(not UAVs/UCAVs) as they can be sent durst on targets like in Kashmir or else where. Also we can do the same for FT-5s, F-6s, F-7, Mirages and A-5Cs which we have also along with other transport aircraft we are retiring.



yes good ideas which require money for evaluation and testing which is just not readily available.


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## Interceptor2014

fatman17 said:


> yes good ideas which require money for evaluation and testing which is just not readily available.


I am sure GIDS have or they can arrange it.


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## fatman17




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## Super Falcon

We need heavy choppers for flood .reliefs for army every year we have to go through pain full need of heavy lifter helis but stupid govt dont buy even 2 to 4 chinkooks do alot better wasting trillions but not buying something which is not worth trillions but can minimize our losses how stupid


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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> We need heavy choppers for flood .reliefs for army every year we have to go through pain full need of heavy lifter helis but stupid govt dont buy even 2 to 4 chinkooks do alot better wasting trillions but not buying something which is not worth trillions but can minimize our losses how stupid



who has offered us Chinooks's?


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## nomi007



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## Super Falcon

Yaar chinkooks are not atmic bombs which are hardvto get if ask them for rescue operations they have sold us ob cheap rates and we needed them forvrescue operations than military use


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## Windjammer

*PAA Puma involved in flood relief duties.  *

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## fatman17



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## nomi007



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## fatman17

AFM October issue has....

Chinese Attack Helicopters
In a world where sanctions, vetoes, clones and copies play a big part, China’s attack helicopters are finally emerging from the shadows as Jakub Fojtik explains.


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## Luftwaffe

fatman17 said:


> yes good ideas which require money for evaluation and testing which is just not readily available.



That guy seems Nishan in disguise, careful look at his wishes.


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

AAB Rahwali


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## fatman17

AAB Qasim.




Mil-Mi-17

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## fatman17

Derelict O-1/L-19.

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## Muqeet Ahmed

Thanks for useful information.

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## fatman17

*




RUSSIA IS NOT FAR AWAY:*
Mi-35M Combat & Transport Helicopter.
By Capt. Sana Nasri

After the end of World War II, military hardware industry of the world was divided between US-led Western Bloc and a Soviet-led Bloc. Although the equipment manufactured in the West dominated the export industry, yet Russian hard-ware also made its mark in the militaries around the world. Even after the end of the Cold War, though seemingly Western Club led by the USdominates due to a common perception of better technology, yet Russian defence industry is not far too behind. Mi-35M helicopter is one such example.

Mi-35M is categorized as one of the latest helicopters in the world. Manufactured by Russia, it is a multi-role combat helicopter that can both be used in combat as well as transportation role. The latest series of the kind of machines was derived from the Mi-8 helicopter, which was later transformed to Mi-14, Mi-28, and Mi-24 which is also known as 'Flying Tank'. The export versions of Mi-24 are Mi-25 and Mi-35M.

Mi-35M is a versatile and reliable air transport with heavy armour, good transport capacity, and a nose canon for defence against light vehicles and other helicopters. The main role of this helicopter is carrying out a wider range of combat missions like destruction of armoured vehicles, enemy troops, UAVs and other helicopters, including air reconnaissance with real-time target location. Its secondary role is troop’s delivery, special cargo, and evacuation of casualties. It can also operate at night and in adverse weather conditions.

The helicopter is fitted with new main and tail rotors, a new swash plate assembly, a shorter modernized wing with a integrated cargo lifting system, a non-retractable landing gear. It differs from the basic model by main rotor system of the Mi-28 and X-shape tail rotor. Fibre-glass blades of main rotors have new aerodynamic profile. These are lighter but stronger due to titanium details. Wings have a number of hard points for weapons and other uses.

Mi-35M has a payload capacity of a 2,400 kg. It can carry 2 crew members and a full infantry section of 8
fully-equipped troops. This feature makes this helicopter unique comparing with Western attack helicopters. A
large calibre machine gun, as well as general purpose machine guns can be installed in the cargo cabin, too.
The helicopter has increased-capacity external fuel tanks, and an upgraded 2 power plants, GTD TV3-117VMA turbo-shaft engines with maximum speed of 310 km/ h. The fuel tank has self-sealing covers and porous fuel tank filler for increased survivability and the exhaust is fitted with infrared suppression systems. Also, these measures increase the hovering ceiling of the helicopter up to 4,000 meters and its service ceiling up to S,700 meters.

Mi-35M has a whole spectrum of new electronic systems adopted in the glass cockpit. It accommodates two pilots in tandem configuration. The Night Vision Goggle (NVG)-compatible cockpit integrates Multi-Functional Displays (MFDs), redundant flight controls and state-of-the-art avionics. The helicopter is equipped with OPS-24N Surveillance-and-sighting station, television channel, GPS-guided navigation system and optional non-Russian radio station. Also, countermeasures capability of Mi-35M includes a radar warning receiver, a laser range finder and a location finder, chaff and flare launch system, infrared (IR) jamming system and engine-exhaust IR suppressor, all onboard computer, and new generation jam-proof communications equipment.

Mi-35M helicopter's round-the-clock combat efficiency is enhanced by installation of eight highly effective ATGMs, unguided rockets or bombs, four Igla-V air-to-air missiles, up to 10 S-13 rockets, the nose turret carries GSh-23 (23mm) twobarrel gun cannon with 4S0-round ammunition load, and improved weapons control system, computer system, andsoftware. The cockpit and vital components of this helicopter are significantly armoured.

Mi-35M combat helicopter is a good choice for any modern army, provides an alternative to over-reliance and
Over dependence on Western technology, and, RUSSIA IS NOT TOO FAR AWAY!

Hilal Magazine – Sept-14

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## Sulman Badshah

*19. september 2014 article (translated from google) *


*Consultations are under way for the delivery to Pakistan Russian Mi-35M - "Rosoboronexport"* 
Pakistan would like to purchase from Russia batch of Mi-35M (export version of the attack helicopter Mi-24), told reporters on Friday the head of the delegation of the State Corporation "Rosteh" at the ongoing exhibition in South Africa, Africa Aerospace and Defence 2014, Deputy General Director of "Rosoboronexport" Sergey Goreslavsky. 

"In accordance with the instructions of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation continue consultations on this subject (the supply to Pakistan of the Mi-35). Pakistani side believes that this type of helicopter can be successfully applied in the task of combating terrorism," - said C .Goreslavsky. 

He noted that the problem of terrorism, which are solved in Pakistan relating to the sub-region. 

Mi-35M is designed Moscow Helicopter Plant Mil. Standard machine produced by "Rostvertol", is part of the holding company "Helicopters of Russia". The helicopter can carry out combat missions around the clock, has increased in comparison with the base model firepower and improved performance characteristics. 

The helicopter set a new set of avionics and night thermal sighting guidance subsystem, which provides round the clock combat use of helicopters flying at night. 

In addition, on the Mi-35M crew used night-vision goggles. 

High firepower of the Mi-35M provide precision guided missile systems (complexes "Storm" and "Attack"). 

Modernized helicopters equipped launcher APU-8/4-U, which allows to carry up to eight missiles in launch canisters. In their arsenal there are also units with unguided rockets C-8 and C-13, built and hung gun armament, including non-removable movable gun mount 2A42 gun 23 caliber.

Ведутся консультации о поставке в Пакистан российских вертолетов Ми-35М - "Рособоронэкспорт" — Интерфакс Азербайджан


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## fatman17

Sulman Badshah said:


> *19. september 2014 article (translated from google) *
> 
> 
> *Consultations are under way for the delivery to Pakistan Russian Mi-35M - "Rosoboronexport"*
> Pakistan would like to purchase from Russia batch of Mi-35M (export version of the attack helicopter Mi-24), told reporters on Friday the head of the delegation of the State Corporation "Rosteh" at the ongoing exhibition in South Africa, Africa Aerospace and Defence 2014, Deputy General Director of "Rosoboronexport" Sergey Goreslavsky.
> 
> "In accordance with the instructions of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation continue consultations on this subject (the supply to Pakistan of the Mi-35). Pakistani side believes that this type of helicopter can be successfully applied in the task of combating terrorism," - said C .Goreslavsky.
> 
> He noted that the problem of terrorism, which are solved in Pakistan relating to the sub-region.
> 
> Mi-35M is designed Moscow Helicopter Plant Mil. Standard machine produced by "Rostvertol", is part of the holding company "Helicopters of Russia". The helicopter can carry out combat missions around the clock, has increased in comparison with the base model firepower and improved performance characteristics.
> 
> The helicopter set a new set of avionics and night thermal sighting guidance subsystem, which provides round the clock combat use of helicopters flying at night.
> 
> In addition, on the Mi-35M crew used night-vision goggles.
> 
> High firepower of the Mi-35M provide precision guided missile systems (complexes "Storm" and "Attack").
> 
> Modernized helicopters equipped launcher APU-8/4-U, which allows to carry up to eight missiles in launch canisters. In their arsenal there are also units with unguided rockets C-8 and C-13, built and hung gun armament, including non-removable movable gun mount 2A42 gun 23 caliber.
> 
> Ведутся консультации о поставке в Пакистан российских вертолетов Ми-35М - "Рособоронэкспорт" — Интерфакс Азербайджан


 
post something new.....


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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> post something new.....



19th sep isn't that far away(2 week gap) .. I posted it because it wasn't posted before 

And in Mi 35 deal it is latest news available 

(it surely describe that delivery negotiations fro Mi 35 M are underway)
Brother what do you think ??? have they already settle the deal and now negotiations for delivery started


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## fatman17

Sulman Badshah said:


> 19th sep isn't that far away(2 week gap) .. I posted it because it wasn't posted before
> 
> And in Mi 35 deal it is latest news available
> 
> (it surely describe that delivery negotiations fro Mi 35 M are underway)
> Brother what do you think ??? have they already settle the deal and now negotiations for delivery started


 
if u say so.....


----------



## Hurter

Sulman Badshah said:


> *19. september 2014 article (translated from google) *
> 
> 
> *Consultations are under way for the delivery to Pakistan Russian Mi-35M - "Rosoboronexport"*
> Pakistan would like to purchase from Russia batch of Mi-35M (export version of the attack helicopter Mi-24), told reporters on Friday the head of the delegation of the State Corporation "Rosteh" at the ongoing exhibition in South Africa, Africa Aerospace and Defence 2014, Deputy General Director of "Rosoboronexport" Sergey Goreslavsky.
> 
> "In accordance with the instructions of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation continue consultations on this subject (the supply to Pakistan of the Mi-35). Pakistani side believes that this type of helicopter can be successfully applied in the task of combating terrorism," - said C .Goreslavsky.
> 
> He noted that the problem of terrorism, which are solved in Pakistan relating to the sub-region.
> 
> Mi-35M is designed Moscow Helicopter Plant Mil. Standard machine produced by "Rostvertol", is part of the holding company "Helicopters of Russia". The helicopter can carry out combat missions around the clock, has increased in comparison with the base model firepower and improved performance characteristics.
> 
> The helicopter set a new set of avionics and night thermal sighting guidance subsystem, which provides round the clock combat use of helicopters flying at night.
> 
> In addition, on the Mi-35M crew used night-vision goggles.
> 
> High firepower of the Mi-35M provide precision guided missile systems (complexes "Storm" and "Attack").
> 
> Modernized helicopters equipped launcher APU-8/4-U, which allows to carry up to eight missiles in launch canisters. In their arsenal there are also units with unguided rockets C-8 and C-13, built and hung gun armament, including non-removable movable gun mount 2A42 gun 23 caliber.
> 
> Ведутся консультации о поставке в Пакистан российских вертолетов Ми-35М - "Рособоронэкспорт" — Интерфакс Азербайджан



How many are we going to get?


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## fatman17

Junaid B said:


> How many are we going to get?


 
10-12 examples at best.


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## Hurter

fatman17 said:


> 10-12 examples at best.



Not enough


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## Sulman Badshah

Junaid B said:


> How many are we going to get?


don't know exact numbers but it will be under 20


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well MI-35 addition would certainly stand out Pakistan Armed forces in prestige
We should invest into 100 MI-35 , or MI-24 helo 

Forces need revitalization


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## nomi007



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## Interceptor2014

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 112087


Why not PAA acquire more for spares from Spain, Turkey, Bahrain, Jordan and Philipines.


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## nomi007

Interceptor2014 said:


> Why not PAA acquire more for spares from Spain, Turkey, Bahrain, Jordan and Philipines.


because we don't need more junks


----------



## Imran Khan

Junaid B said:


> Not enough


 and we have not enough dollars too

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## nomi007

MI-28 Night Hunter

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## fatman17

Army Citation on short finals at Naples after upgrade and new paint job in the UK.

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## nomi007

PAA (Pakistan ARMY Aviation) Bell AH-1F Cobra attack choppers.




Cobra is American made attack chopper and it has 4 hardpoints (weapon stations).It can carry unguided rockets and guided anti tank missiles, 20mm gatling machine gun on nose.Pakistan ARMY operates 35+ units of AH-1 cobra choppers.

Currently Pakistan is looking to replace their Cobra fleet with:
-T-129 with ToT (Transfer of Technology) from Turkey.
-Mil Mi-28N from Russia.


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## nomi007




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## fatman17

Army Mi-17 undergoing flight test after major overhaul




Army Mi-17s undergoing major overhaul

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 137261
> Army Mi-17 undergoing flight test after major overhaul
> 
> View attachment 137262
> Army Mi-17s undergoing major overhaul



When and for how many the contract was signed for overhaul our Mi-17 ?


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> When and for how many the contract was signed for overhaul our Mi-17 ?


 
its a rolling contract but now local upgrade facilities have been developed at Qasim.

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> its a rolling contract but now local upgrade facilities have been developed at Qasim.


 boss why now ? after this long ? do we need really MI facility now i think if over all helicopters overhauling facility then ok


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> boss why now ? after this long ? do we need really MI facility now i think if over all helicopters overhauling facility then ok


 
in future Mi coming from China. also Puma overhaul is now available.

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> in future Mi coming from China. also Puma overhaul is now available.


sir they got license for produce mi ? as i know they were working on own ideas


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> in future Mi coming from China. also Puma overhaul is now available.



Mi-17 can also be overhauled at PAF Faisal.

Secondly, the transmission and engine still has to be sent abroad...

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> sir they got license for produce mi ? as i know they were working on own ideas


 
yes sir


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> yes sir


so we expect mor mi-17s in future boss . i hate mix fleets BTW

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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> yes sir


Any chances of Arming the Mi 17 ???

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## Hurter

Any latest development of MI-35 deal?


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## Inception-06

Sulman Badshah said:


> Any chances of Arming the Mi 17 ???



We can arm them in Pakistan, our defence-industry is capable to arm them, but it seems there is no interest for that, I am saying this since years.... Arming make only sens for the selfdefence of the Helicopter !


The afghans have armed all their MI-8 and MI-17 fleet checkt this:


----------



## Imran Khan

Sulman Badshah said:


> Any chances of Arming the Mi 17 ???


 its big booty man better to keep them unarmed .


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## Inception-06

Imran Khan said:


> its big booty man better to keep them unarmed .



Sorry Sir, but why the US and Afghans have armed their "big fleet" ? You comment does not make any sense at the moment for me Sir.


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## Imran Khan

Ulla said:


> Sorry Sir, but why the US and Afghans have armed their "big fleet" ? You comment does not make any sense at the moment for me Sir.


 US using MI-17s in combat ? afghan have any other chance to fly . they attached bombs to super tucano even . they want armed flying anything . but arming MI-17 make no sense for pakistan i think its fat guy for transport . look what happen to mi in syria sir .


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## Sulman Badshah

Imran Khan said:


> its big booty man better to keep them unarmed .


I think from a prospective of heli own defence ..Mi 17 should be armed



Junaid B said:


> Any latest development of MI-35 deal?



a month old news states that negotiation for delivery is on the way

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## Imran Khan

Sulman Badshah said:


> I think from a prospective of heli own defence ..Mi 17 should be armed


it can be with board gun boss


----------



## Inception-06

Imran Khan said:


> US using MI-17s in combat ? afghan have any other chance to fly . they attached bombs to super tucano even . they want armed flying anything . but arming MI-17 make no sense for pakistan i think its fat guy for transport . look what happen to mi in syria sir .



No the US is not operating but buying the Mi-17 for the Afghans ca. 50 or more, and the US did order all with armed board guns, Besides that all US-Chinoks (fat guy of the US) which were involved in in Afghanistan operations were equipped with board machine guns. Arming them means not to use them as attack Helicopters ! But when the Mi-17 is in the battle zone and has to land or take of and come under fire, would the board gun not give the crew suppressive defensive fire to fly out of the hot zone ?......In the US-Vietnam war, Soviet-Afghan war, US-Afghan war and Pakistan-TTP war such expirience/scenarios were routine in the past.


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## Imran Khan

Ulla said:


> No the US is not operating but buying the Mi-17 for the Afghans ca. 50 or more, and the US did order all with armed board guns, Besides that all US-Chinoks (fat guy of the US) which were involved in in Afghanistan operations were equipped with board machine guns. Arming them means not to use them as attack Helicopters ! But when the Mi-17 is in the battle zone and has to land or take of and come under fire, would the board gun not give the crew suppressive defensive fire to fly out of the hot zone ?......In the US-Vietnam war, Soviet-Afghan war, US-Afghan war and Pakistan-TTP war such expirience/scenarios were routine in the past.


sir we are on defence forum arming them and board gun is not 2 different things?


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## Inception-06

Imran Khan said:


> sir we are on defence forum arming them and board gun is not 2 different things?



Since we discussed about this in detail, yes it could be ! But before the discussion no Sir.


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## Imran Khan

Ulla said:


> Since we discussed about this, yes it could be !


as i think board gun must be every chopper

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## fatman17

bhai Mi-35 why we are trying to purchase.....dual role.....attack helo + transport.

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## nomi007

*Technical Specifications of the CIRIT 2,75” Laser Guided System *


Diameter: 2.75" (70mm)
Maximum Range: 8km
Weight: 15kg
Propellant Type: Insensitive HTPB based solid composite propellant
Warhead Types: Insensitive Multi-Purpose Warhead (armour piercing, personnel, incendiary) or High Explosive Warhead 
Guidance: Mid-Course Guidance with MEMS-IMU, Terminal Guidance with Semi-Active Laser Seeker
Target Types: Light armoured / unarmoured vehicles, stationary and moving targets, bunkers
Platforms: Attack/Light Attack Helicopters, UAV, Land Vehicles, APCs, Light Combat Aircraft, Naval Platforms and Stationary Platforms


----------



## nomi007



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## Inception-06

nomi007 said:


>



why are you posting such stuff if it is not in service with our army ?



Imran Khan said:


> as i think board gun must be every chopper



I hope you will enjoy this pictures, I like our Idea very much ^^

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## Inception-06

MI-17 first time I see it in this camo:

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## Sulman Badshah

Ulla said:


> why are you posting such stuff if it is not in service with our army ?


Fennec Armed version is in Service in PA


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## Inception-06

*Pakistan Army Helis - Huey UH-1, notice the board gun.........*

*









*



Sulman Badshah said:


> Fennec Armed version is in Service in PA



If so thats a huge punch for the PA-Aviation Fleet. I hope we are using them in the operations against TTP. But there was never a offical confirmation about the armed version of the Fenec in PA....yes I also know very well the Test-phase picture in France with Pakistani Army markings on the Fennec....

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## thrilainmanila

How many MI-17 does pak army operate


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## Inception-06

thrilainmanila said:


> How many MI-17 does pak army operate



Only for you and the indian readers ^^



Since 2001 The Pakistan Army Aviation-Helicopter-Transport-Wing has become a serious *Air assault arm. The *number of Helicopters which can deliver special air assault infantry units such as the SSG has reached a high Level. While the industry in Pakistan has get the capability to maintenance and upgrade most parts of the Helicopters in Pakistan.



M-17 and Mi-8 ca. 100------------------This fleet can transport ca. 550 Infantry Soldiers

SA-Puma ca. 50-------------------------This fleet can transport ca. 500 Infantry Soldiers

Bell-412,Bell-206,UH-1H: ca. 50-------This fleet can transport ca. 250 Infantry Soldiers.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

nomi007 said:


>


Can Pakistan ask Airbus to set up an assembly line so that these can be also given to other services like anti narcotics, police, customs and also used for search and rescue (armed and unarmed or special missions)


----------



## thrilainmanila

Ulla said:


> Only for you and the indian readers ^^
> 
> 
> 
> Since 2001 The Pakistan Army Aviation-Helicopter-Transport-Wing has become serious *Air assault arm, The *numbers of Helicopters which can deliver special air assault infantry units such as the SSG has reached a high Level. While the industry in Pakistan has get the capability to maintenance and upgrade most parts of the Helicopters in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> M-17 and Mi-8 ca. 100------------------This fleet can transport ca. 550 Infantry Soldiers
> 
> SA-Puma ca. 50-------------------------This fleet can transport ca. 500 Infantry Soldiers
> 
> Bell-412,Bell-206,UH-1H: ca. 50-------This fleet can transport ca. 250 Infantry Soldiers.
> 
> View attachment 138521


Your info is wrong according to wiki pak army has more around 300 transport choppers, and 1 MI-17 can air lift between 20-30 people that means if 60 of them are used at one time 1800 Troops can be transported. 
Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Inception-06

thrilainmanila said:


> Your info is wrong according to wiki pak army has more around 300 transport choppers, and 1 MI-17 can air lift between 20-30 people that means if 60 of them are used at one time 1800 Troops can be transported.
> Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



OK if wiki says ^^

name or list the other 100 Transport helicopters for AIR ASSAULT , I have listed ca. 200.... please dont come with Alloutte 2-3, Lama and Fenec !


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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Can Pakistan ask Airbus to set up an assembly line so that these can be also given to other services like anti narcotics, police, customs and also used for search and rescue (armed and unarmed or special missions)


the required numbers wont be so high so that there is a need of setting up an assembly line. We need these in few numbers so cheaper to import them. The fighter aircraft are one thing required in number so we are manufacturing these at home. The navy ships takes a few months to be completed so we do make some of these at home as well but i do not see the need to setting up a production setup for helos that will never be procured in huge numbers.

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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> Only for you and the indian readers ^^
> 
> 
> 
> Since 2001 The Pakistan Army Aviation-Helicopter-Transport-Wing has become a serious *Air assault arm. The *number of Helicopters which can deliver special air assault infantry units such as the SSG has reached a high Level. While the industry in Pakistan has get the capability to maintenance and upgrade most parts of the Helicopters in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> M-17 and Mi-8 ca. 100------------------This fleet can transport ca. 550 Infantry Soldiers
> 
> SA-Puma ca. 50-------------------------This fleet can transport ca. 500 Infantry Soldiers
> 
> Bell-412,Bell-206,UH-1H: ca. 50-------This fleet can transport ca. 250 Infantry Soldiers.
> 
> View attachment 138521


 
inflated figures...


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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> inflated figures...



I have checked over the years all, upgrades, new orders for the Helicopters, crashes etc, than give please your figures.


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> I have checked over the years all, upgrades, new orders for the Helicopters, crashes etc, than give please your figures.


 
go to page 1 of this thread.


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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> go to page 1 of this thread.



Sorry, I cant agree with your numbers, only the crashes, you did even not inlcude the Mi-17 which we did get from Great Britain etc. and those which were parked at Quetta aviation air field are now all in service. Than we can reduce the number of Mi-17 to ca. 80 down and the of Puma 40 but not lower.....


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> the required numbers wont be so high so that there is a need of setting up an assembly line. We need these in few numbers so cheaper to import them. The fighter aircraft are one thing required in number so we are manufacturing these at home. The navy ships takes a few months to be completed so we do make some of these at home as well but i do not see the need to setting up a production setup for helos that will never be procured in huge numbers.



I might not agree with the pretext the numbers would not be sufficent. If Police and Rescue services keep and maintain only 1 aircraft each per city they would require atleast 220. We have others as well like Customs, Anti-Narcotics and Rangers. Recently there was an advertisment for the Ministry of Interior Helicopter wing to be established. The total might be atleast 500 not including the ones we already have in PA.


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## nomi007

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Can Pakistan ask Airbus to set up an assembly line so that these can be also given to other services like anti narcotics, police, customs and also used for search and rescue (armed and unarmed or special missions)


money issue


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## nomi007

simple and advance system 
good for paa as well
it denel dynamics of s-africa

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## I <3 PAK ARMY

Code:


No power in this world can undo Pakistan


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## FLIR

I <3 PAK ARMY said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> No power in this world can undo Pakistan


yes there is our politications!


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## fatman17

ex-RJAF Cobra

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## nomi007

army chief is in usa
he must to ask usa to give also used aviation stuff
like AH-1w and some CH-47
which they are using in afghanistan
hope this time usa will not reject our demands


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> army chief is in usa
> he must to ask usa to give also used aviation stuff
> like AH-1w and some CH-47
> which they are using in afghanistan
> hope this time usa will not reject our demands


he must ask ?


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> he must ask ?


 
nomi has direct link with chief...

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> nomi has direct link with chief...


 ahhh sir i miss old golden days now


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## ACE OF THE AIR

nomi007 said:


> army chief is in usa
> he must to ask usa to give also used aviation stuff
> like AH-1w and some CH-47
> which they are using in afghanistan
> hope this time usa will not reject our demands



May be there is some sort of agreement on the equptment that is present in afghanistan but not aviation related. 

Wasn't AH-64 A upgraded to D offered to Pakistan?


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## nomi007



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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## Stealth



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## fatman17

*



*
*Pakistan Wins Approval To Purchase Mi-35 Helo*
*
Nov. 13, 2014 - 09:11PM | 
By USMAN ANSARI *

*Pakistan hopes to soon complete a deal to acquire Mi-35 helicopter gunships after winning Russian approval for the sale. (Russian Helicopters)*

*ISLAMABAD* — Pakistan’s attempts to acquire new helicopter gunships appear to be nearing success with news that a deal for Mi-35 Hind helicopters has been approved.

Speaking to Radio Pakistan on Wednesday, Russia’s ambassador to Pakistan, Alexy Dedov, said the deal had been approved but political and commercial negotiations continued.

Pakistan has sought new helicopter gunships for the best part of a decade to replace AH-1F Cobras, which have been fast wearing out due to the pace of operations against the Pakistani Taliban (TTP) and its allies in and around the Tribal Areas bordering Afghanistan.

Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said Pak-Russian ties have been growing closer and more defense deals are likely.

“Ever since former President Musharraf and President Putin developed a rapport, the Pak-Russo relationship has taken a mutually beneficial path. Recently, Russian Navy ships have docked at Karachi and both the navies have indulged in naval exercises. Both Russia and China have also actively supported Pakistan to the Shanghai Cooperation Organization as a full member,” Khan said.

“In the coming weeks, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoygu will be visiting Islamabad and more than likely the deal would be finalized. There is also a possibility of other military equipment that Pakistanis are interested in buying”, he added.

Similarly, Salma Malik, assistant professor in the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies, at Islamabad’s Quaid-i-Azam University, says there are political considerations that have come into play, and ultimately both sides benefit.

“This is not the first time Pakistan and Russia [formerly as the Soviet Union] have entered into high-level cooperation. Unfortunately like the past, this too is in the context of balancing relations vis a vis India. However, this time round the added dimension, which is positive for us, is the financial dividend and alternate military purchase option such a deal brings to both Russia and Pakistan, respectively,” she said.

She believes geo-political considerations have also pushed Russia to court Pakistan.

“Also in the backdrop of the Afghan scenario, however grudgingly, the international powers have to accept and acknowledge Pakistan’s role in a peaceful and stable future, which is beneficial to all, and with lesser friends in the international circuit [because of the] Ukrainian issue, Moscow would not like to lose out on any footholds it can reach in case of a breakout of a new Cold War.”

Though the Defence Ministry here did not reply to requests for clarification on details of the deal, the variant being negotiated for is the Mi-35M all weather day/night capable version.

Analyst, author and former Australian defense attache to Pakistan, Brian Cloughley, welcomes the deal despite the obvious cost issues for Pakistan, and highlights how it will bring Pakistan and Russia closer.

“It certainly seems that the deal will go ahead, but of course the financial details are most important. It is highly likely that Russia will offer very attractive terms and also lock Pakistan into a long-term agreement, which will be no bad thing for either country,” he said.

Adding, “It’s politically even more significant than it is militarily important,” as it would help Pakistan “even more on the international stage, and gradually remove it from US dominance, which has grown increasingly intense in the past five years.”

In purely military terms he believes the Hind will be warmly welcomed.

“Certainly it’s going to help Pakistan enormously, by putting in place a [comparatively] cheap, well-proven [general purpose], but mainly attack helicopter,” he said.

“For COIN and such against militants it is a viable platform,” Khan said. “It is heavily armored, has weapons for its own defense and to a certain degree offense, and is a combination of armored gunship and troop transport which has no equal in the world.”

There were generally considered to be three long-term alternatives to the AH-1F.

The Turkish TAI T-129 nearly secured an order from Pakistan but a potential deal was scuppered due to financial difficulties despite very generous terms offered by Turkey.

It had been seen as a strong contender by analysts, however, and was deemed to be ideally suited to Pakistan’s topography and climate.

The Chinese CAIC WZ-10 was also thought to be an increasingly strong option, not least because of the generous financial terms the Chinese would have been able to offer.

Despite it being a relatively new type, Douglas Barrie, senior fellow for Military Aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, believed an export is possible.

“The Chinese military appears now to be building experience with its Z-10 units, including mixed type exercises. Developing the tactics and procedures to gain the most from what at least seems a reasonably capable attack helicopter is an ongoing process,” he said.

“While comparatively early in terms of its service life, an export at this point would not be impossible,” he added.

What many had considered a natural option, and which had been much discussed over the years, the US AH-1Z Viper, is seen as increasingly unlikely despite some support from the US State Department.
Cloughley said the Hind is Pakistan’s only likely acquisition.

“The Cobra was getting too expensive to run, and replacements weren’t likely to be approved by Congress, even if Pakistan could afford them. Don’t think the 129 is in there,” he said. ■
*Email: uansari@defensenews.com.*


----------



## fatman17

Air Platforms
*Russia, Pakistan close in on Mi-35 deal*
*Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
13 November 2014


Russia has apparently decided to go ahead with the sale of Mi-35 attack helicopters, similar to this Afghan model, to Pakistan despite Indian opposition. Source: AP Photos

Russia has "politically approved" a deal for Moscow to sell a batch of Mil Mi-35 'Hind E' heavy attack helicopters to Pakistan, Russia's ambassador told Radio Pakistan, the state owned broadcaster, on 12 November.

Although Alexey Dedov did not reveal the number of platforms under discussion, a senior Pakistani government official confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ that the purchase of up to 20 helicopters was under discussion. "This is a big breakthrough for Pakistan. Russia has decided to ignore India's pressure and proceed with this deal with Pakistan," said the official.

Pakistan has previously been discouraged from securing any major defence contracts with Russia due to objections from India, which is one of Moscow's most important arms customers.

"Times have changed. The Russians have realised that Pakistan genuinely needs this equipment for a very legitimate reason," said the Pakistani government official. Since June, the Pakistan Army has relied in part on Mil Mi-17 'Hip' helicopters in its military campaign against the Taliban in the north Waziristan region along the Afghan border.

*COMMENT*
Analysts said the Pakistan Army, which is the defence forces' main helicopter operator, has chosen the Mi-35 because of its satisfaction with Russian helicopters that it has used previously, notably the Mi-17. Pakistan first received Mi-17s in 1994; most recently the United States donated four reconditioned platforms in 2009.

"Our helicopter pilots are very comfortable with Russian helicopters. We have chosen the Mi-35 based on our prior experience with Russian helicopters, which has been very good" said retired Brigadier Farooq Hameed Khan, a former senior Pakistan Army officer who trained as a helicopter pilot.

In recent years, Pakistani officials have become increasingly confident over prospects for future purchase of Russia's military hardware. For example, the JF-17 'Thunder' fighter, which is co-produced by the Pakistan Air Force and China's Chengdu Aviation Corporation, is powered by the Russian-manufactured RD-93 engine.

*Related article:* India unhappy at Russia's Mi-35 sale to Pakistan


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## fatman17

*Harbin Z-19 Light Attack Helicopter, China*
*
Key Data*

*Type* Light attack and reconnaissance helicopter
*Developer* Harbin Aircraft Industry Group (HAIG)
*Operator* People's Liberation Army Air Force
*Crew* Two
*Cruising Speed* 245km
*Maximum Range* 700km
Z-19 is a light attack and reconnaissance helicopter developed and manufactured by Harbin Aircraft Industry Group (HAIG), for the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

It is based on the Harbin Z-9W military utility helicopter, which is a license-built variant of the Eurocopter AS365 Dauphin multi-purpose helicopter.

The Z-19 can primarily conduct attack, armed reconnaissance and scout missions. It is capable of destroying enemy tanks and other land-based targets.

In May 2010. the helicopter performed its first flight and was introduced at the China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition, held at the Airshow China held in Zhuhai in November 2012.

*Z-19 attack helicopter design and features*

The Z-19 light attack and reconnaissance helicopter features a conventional, stealthy design integrating a trimmed forward fuselage and a tandem cockpit. It also has a low acoustic signature and can execute operations under difficult weather and environmental conditions.
A four-bladed main rotor, which has a diameter of 11.9m comes fitted into the fuselage, as does a fenestron tail rotor and two stubby wings. The fuselage is also equipped with non-retractable front-landing gears for safe take-off and landing.
The helicopter has a length of 12m and height of approximately 4.01m. Maximum take-off weight is 4,500kg, whereas the empty weight is 2,350kg.
A crew of two operate the helicopter. This includes a pilot, who is seated in the front of the cockpit and a gunner, accommodated at the rear. Crash-resistant seats and armour plates come with the cockpit to offer protection for the personnel. An infrared-suppressing exhaust system is also installed for protection against infrared-guided threats.

*Avionics on board Z-19 helicopter*
The Harbin Z-19 light attack helicopter features a gyro-stabilised sensor turret fixed under the nose. This turret houses forward-looking infrared (FLIR) camera systems, laser range finder/designator and a TV.
The helicopter is also equipped with the latest mast-mounted active millimetre-wave (MMW) radar to find and engage targets over long ranges and comes with advanced helmet mounted sight (HMS) and fly-by-wire controls.

*Z-19 helicopter weaponry*
"Powered by a solid fuel rocket, the 25kg missile can reach speeds up to 220m/s."
Four hard-points can be found under the wings of the Harbin Z-19. These wings can carry TY-90 (TianYan-90) short-range air-to-air missiles, gun pods, rocket pods, and pod-mounted 23mm main automatic cannons as well as HJ-8 wire-guided anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) system developed by NORINCO.
The TY-90 air-to-air missile measures 1.86m in length and 90mm in diameter. It weighs 20kg, which includes a 3kg warhead and it can reach a top speed of Mach 2. Targets can be struck by the helicopter within a range of 500m to 6km.
The HJ-8 ATGM has an overall length of 1.56m and diameter of 120mm. Powered by a solid fuel rocket, the 25kg missile can reach speeds up to 220m/s. The maximum operational range of the missile is 6km.

*Engine and performance of the light attack helicopter*
Two WZ-8A Turboshaft engines power the Z-19 light gunship helicopter and generate a take-off power of 632kW each.
The power-plant provides a cruising speed of about 245km/h and a maximum speed of approximately 280km/h. The helicopter has a maximum range of 700km, can climb at a rate of 9m/s and operate at a ceiling of 2,400m. It can perform airborne operations for more than three hours.

*The Global Military Rotorcraft Market 2011-2021*
This project forms part of our recent analysis and forecasts of the global military rotorcraft market available from our business information platform Strategic Defence Intelligence.


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## fatman17



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## nomi007

PAA (Pakistan ARMY Aviation) SA-330 Puma utility helicopter.

SA-330 Puma is four bladed chopper and powered by 2x Turboshaft engines and it is usually used for medium transport role.SA-330 can carry upto 20 troops.Currently Pakistan has 55+ units of SA330 Puma choppers.
Pakistan also operates IAR-330 Romanian made variant of SA-330 Puma choppers.

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## nomi007




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## ACE OF THE AIR

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 154671


it is missing nuclear capability...

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## special

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> it is missing nuclear capability...


nuclear capability!!!!!!1???????? it is a copper... not a fighter jet to have nuclear capability

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## ACE OF THE AIR

special said:


> nuclear capability!!!!!!1???????? it is a copper... not a fighter jet to have nuclear capability


Just wait and watch.


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## Imran Khan

special said:


> nuclear capability!!!!!!1???????? it is a copper... not a fighter jet to have nuclear capability


bhai jis mulk main auto rickshaw nuclear ho sakta hai wahan chopper ky cheez hai

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## Manticore

https://i.imgur.com/aSPHBrc.png


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## special

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Just wait and watch.



wait till when??end of this century??


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## special

Imran Khan said:


> bhai jis mulk main auto rickshaw nuclear ho sakta hai wahan chopper ky cheez hai


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## ACE OF THE AIR

special said:


> wait till when??end of this century??



Not really it is all planed to be done within few years. As for your doubts that it can not be done just search and you will find that PAF modified a C130 to bomb supply lines during 65 war.


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## special

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Not really it is all planed to be done within few years. As for your doubts that it can not be done just search and you will find that PAF modified a C130 to bomb supply lines during 65 war.



use your brain man... helicopter dropping nukes!!!??? what will be that?? a suicide mission??


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## Sulman Badshah

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> it is missing nuclear capability...





special said:


> use your brain man... helicopter dropping nukes!!!??? what will be that?? a suicide mission??



Helicopter can't be used in Nuke strikes .. end of story


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Sulman Badshah said:


> Helicopter can't be used in Nuke strikes .. end of story


Firing a long range cruse missile by a heli


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## special

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Firing a long range cruse missile by a heli


do you have any idea what are you talking?? a Cruise missile carrying nukes can't be launched from a helicopter... may be a mil-26 can carry it but it is less piratical too....better alternatives are available...


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## fatman17

*




Z-10 Thunderbolt*
An Army Aviation *Z-10* attack helicopter is shown here. Co-developed by the 602 Institute, CHAIC and HAIG as the first dedicated modern attack helicopter for PLA Army Aviation since 1998, *Z-10* is generally believed in the same class as South African Rooviak and Italian A129, yet still not as capable as American AH-64 _Apache_.

The helicopter adopts a standard gunship configuration with a narrow fuselage and stepped tandem cockpit with the pilot in the front seat and the gunner in the backseat. The fuselage appears to have a stealthy diamond shaped cross section to reduce RCS. It also have a 5-blade main rotor made of composite material and an AH-64 style 4-blade tail rotor. All the vital areas of the fuselage including the cockpit and fuel tanks are believed to be protected by the armor plates. It weighs about 5.5 tons and was powered initially by two P&W PT6C-76C turboshaft engines (rated @ 1,250kW each) on the prototypes. However domestic developed engines (upgraded WZ-9) are being used in production batches due to the embargo imposed by the west. Its rotor and transmission systems may have been designed with extensive technical assistance from Eurocopter France and Agusta.

Its main weapon are 8 newly developed KD-9 or KD-10 ATGMs in the same class of American AGM-114 _Hellfire_. A 23mm cannon (PX-10A) is mounted under the chin, aimed via gunner's helmet mounted display. Also up to 8 PL-90 AAMs can be carried against enemy helicopters and slow-moving fixed wing aircraft. Its range can be further extended by external fuel tanks.

Similar to AH-64, *Z-10* features nose mounted PNVS and TVDS housing FLIR, TV camera, laser range finder and designator. RWR and radar jammer antennas are installed on both sides of the forward and aft fuselage.

In addition, two laser warning receivers (LHRGK003A) was installed on top of the pylon tips. The helicopter may have been fitted with an integrated communication/navigation system, a comprehensive ECM suite, IFF, chaff/flare launchers, 1553B data bus, HOTAS and a glass cockpit. A preliminary concept was developed in 1995 by Russian Kamov OKB as a contrator.

The full development started in 1998 at 602. Two prototypes were built in 2003 and six more were built in 2004. The first flight of 02 prototype took place on April 29, 2003. Several *Z-10* prototypes powered by PT6C-76C engine were evaluated by the Army in 2007. However the production was halted due to the embargo of PT6C-76C engine imposed by the Canadian government.

In 2009 it was reported that an "optimized" version (Z-10A?) was under development and expected to enter the mass production. This version is powered by the less powerful WZ-9 engines (~1,000kW) thus was forced to have its weight reduced by eliminating certain less-critical parts such as less armor protection, smaller PNVS/TVDS (WXG1006) on the nose similar to that of *Z-9WA* and a smaller weapon load.

After its design certification in October 2010, the first batch of 12 *Z-10*s entered the service with PLA Army Aviation (S/N LH951xx) in late 2010. More *Z-10*s are entering the service with the Army (S/N LH981xx, 961xx, 941xx, 991xx, 911xx, 971xx, 9101xx) since late 2011. However some still carry the original PNVS/TVDS installed on the prototypes but are powered by WZ-9 turboshafts. This version (*Z-10H*?) also features additional equipment such as an IR jammer (?) installed on the cockpit roof. It has been speculated that *Z-10* could be powered by the new WZ-16 turboshaft engine (~1,500kw) in the future. The latest image (March 2014) showed *Z-10 *was landing on a naval LST in an attempt to further expand its mission to amphibious assault.

_- Last Updated 9/16/14_
the recent statement by the indomitable Defence Production Minister states that Pakistan is also interested in the Z-10 which is now a maturing platform and is being inducted in the chinese army in large numbers.


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## fatman17



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## nomi007

*PAA (Pakistan Army Aviation) Bell AH-1 Cobra attack choppers.*
still young

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## fatman17

PAA History...

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 157044
> View attachment 157043
> View attachment 157041
> 
> PAA History...


 sir jee darya per nehlaany le gaay thy kya ?

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Imran Khan said:


> sir jee darya per nehlaany le gaay thy kya ?


Engine garam ho gaya tha... pani dal ne le gaay thy


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## fatman17

wah, wah, what joculary....


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## fatman17

SA-315-Lama used for ground instructional training.

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## fatman17

Puma-330 VIP Flight

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## fatman17

SA-316 Alouette - early photograph


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## fatman17

Upgraded SA-315/6 Alouette-III

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## fatman17

*DEFENCE NOTES*

*Last Flight from East Pakistan*

Columnist Brig (Retd) SHER KHAN discusses the amazing escape of the complete Army Aviation Detachment personnel from East Pakistan in December 1971.

*O*n December 16, 1971, at 1:05 p.m., an Allouette 3 helicopter of the Pakistan Army took off from near Dacca airport, and flew past the airfield where preparations were afoot at the VIP helipad at the foot of the ATC tower for receiving General Aurora, commander of the Indian forces that had attacked East Pakistan earlier in the month. Flying at deck level, the helicopter, piloted by Major Mohammad Zareef Bangash, headed southward towards the Burmese city of Akyab at the northern tip of that country. Also on board were Major Tauhid ul Haq, another Allouette pilot, Major Ijaz Minhas, an aviation engineer, and a PAF squadron leader; in the rear seat were ten jerry cans of spare jet fuel for refuelling en route, since this type of helicopter did not have the endurance to reach its destination on the fuel in its tanks. After about four and a half hours of flying, skimming the Bay of Bengal and the terrain to avoid detection by Indian naval forces which had a very strong presence in the Bay of Bengal, and an additional hour or so spent in refuelling in the Arakan jungles south of Chittagong, the helicopter set down safely at Akyab towards dusk. That same fateful day in the history of Pakistan, and an inglorious day in the history of the Pakistan Armed Forces, in the words of Lt General Kamal Matiuddin in his book on the Indo-Pakistan War of 1971, ‘Lieutenant General Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi, H.J, S.J, MC, Mention in Despatches, signed the instrument of surrender at 4:31 p.m. on 16 December, 1971 and handed over the control of Pakistan’s eastern province to its bitterest enemy.’

Recently I got Zareef, now a retired colonel, to talk about his memorable flight of nearly three decades ago. It is an interesting tale, worth sharing with the readers; it may also help shed some light on some of the controversies that have arisen in the wake of the publication of parts of the Hamood ur Rehman Commission Report, and hopefully will not open up new ones. Here is the gist of an hour-long chat:

‘In the early part of April 1971, soon after the ‘military crackdown’ of 25 March 1971, I was ordered to proceed to Karachi for duty in East Pakistan with the Aviation Logistic Flight attached to Eastern Command. There were three other fixed wing pilots with me. At Karachi airport, we boarded a PIA Boeing 707 from the Hajj Terminal along with a company or so strength of Khyber Rifles, whose men were carrying their arms and ammunition with them. Soon after we were airborne, the pilot called me to the cockpit, and enquired what we had loaded on to the airplane, saying that he had just managed to barely lift the aircraft off the end of the runway because it was much too heavy, and advising us to be a little more careful about weight in the future. Anyhow we had an uneventful flight till Colombo (direct flights over India to Dacca having been banned in the wake of the engineered Ganga hijacking incident), when the pilot called me into the cockpit again. This time, he reported that two Indian fighters were tailing him. He, therefore, climbed higher and gave more throttle to gain speed, and lost the fighters, but flying up the eastern coast of India, he was again similarly harassed by Indian aircraft a number of times. Anyhow, we landed at Dacca quite safely, and took up our duties.

‘Since there were no Army airplanes in East Pakistan, we were converted onto Cessnas of the flying club, and Beavers of the Plant Protection Department. We would then be tasked to fly all kinds of missions, such as command and liaison, observation, reconnaissance, etc, apart from conducting the occasional artillery shoots from the air onto Indian concentrations close to the border. One of the most memorable ones was an artillery shoot in the Feni area, with Major General Qazi, if I recall correctly, the 33 Division commander himself sitting in the aircraft, along with one of his artillery unit commanders. There was a Plant Protection pilot at the controls of the Beaver, I was his co-pilot and observer, and we flew for over five hours that day, shooting at and registering targets across the border. For better observation, we were flying at around five thousand feet above the ground. During the flight, at times we would get the feeling as if the aircraft had been hit by ground fire, but there seemed to be no physical evidence of it.

Later on, we learnt that we were being fired upon by Indian air defence artillery guns, but since the fuses on the ammunition were designed to detonate at around four and a half thousand feet, they were bursting below us. Mercifully, the Indians did not call up any fighters to engage us.

‘Around the first week of May, I reported back to Dhamial Camp near Rawalpindi for conversion on Allouette 3 helicopters, and in October I, was sent back to East Pakistan. By that time, the Army Aviation Squadron had arrived there in full strength, so as such there were six Mi 8 and six Allocate 3 helicopters operating under Eastern Command. In the months leading up to the break out of open hostilities by the Indian Army crossing the international borders, the squadron was kept busy flying a host of varied missions, including resupply of arms and ammunition, taking General Niazi and his staff to various formations and headquarters, besides carrying regular troops and commandos to regain positions taken by the Mukti Bahini, etc. One of the frequent missions was to take around international observers and media teams to various points and areas were the Mukti Bahini and Indian agents had engaged in hostilities or had perpetrated atrocities, etc. Apart from Alouette flying with senior captains like the late Nauman Mahmood, Saghir, etc, I would occasionally sit in the copilot’s seat of the Mi 8s also when there was a shortage of crew. On Eid day in November, General Niazi went around the various headquarters by helicopter to meet and greet the troops. That day, we learnt that one of our PAF aircraft which had intruded into India had been shot down and the pilot baled out, while the other damaged aircraft, flown if I recall correctly by PQ Mehdi, the recently retired Air Chief, managed to make it back to Dacca. By then there were a lot of hostilities taking place, the Muktis were getting very active, and all of our troops deployed in various sectors were bracing for the impending Indian invasion, which seemed imminent.

Because of the Mukti factor, communications by land and riverine craft had become very hazardous and in some instances impossible, so the helicopters and their crew were constantly pressed into service. One of our main missions was to evacuate casualties, and sometimes taking artillery shoots against troop concentrations across the border. One of my most painful missions was to conduct a shoot onto my own battalion, into which I had been commissioned and spent the first four years of my service with, i.e. 4 Bengal Regiment, at Barab Bazar, when Pakistani forces were trying to retake the place. I must say that the EME maintenance crew did a remarkable job keeping the helicopters serviceable despite their non-stop commitment, when removed from their main logistical and maintenance base in West Pakistan. On a lighter note, one of our missions was to resupply the government treasuries in different towns which had been looted. For some one earning a few hundred rupees a month, it was a mouth-watering experience to transport crores of rupees by helicopter.

‘As soon as the war broke out in December, the helicopters were dispersed all over the Dacca cantonment. The Indians bombarded the Dacca airfield and disabled it at the outset, and the PAF aircraft could not take off. Thereafter, the Indians dominated the skies completely, so that most of our flying became restricted to the night time. The squadron flew extensively throughout this period, mostly at night, flying blindly since even putting on the landing lights drew intense ground fire. Luckily, my four years of early service in East Pakistan was a great help since I knew the terrain very well. A couple of days before the surrender took place, I was detailed to fly a staff officer from Eastern Command to some of the subordinate headquarters whose communications had been cut off. Wherever we landed he handed out an envelope to the local commander, which drew reactions from resigned acceptance to fury: the envelopes contained news of the impending surrender. I remember that the most furious reaction was that of the officer commanding the Chittagong garrison, which had been cut off from the rest of the country early in the conflict, and had been blockaded by the Indian Navy. He flung the orders in our face, saying that he would not accept an abject surrender when his troops had not even been bloodied! Anyhow, he allowed the Commissioner and DIG Police, both West Pakistanis, to be evacuated to Dacca in my helicopter.

‘On 15 December, the Squadron Commander, Lt Col Liaqat Asrar Bukhari held a conference, and told the officers that he had been permitted/ordered by Eastern Command to evacuate all the serviceable aircraft that night to Akyab in Burma, along with the maximum number of women and children. However, one Allouette and its crew were to stay back at the disposal of General Niazi should he need it for any reason.

Tauhid ul Haq and I, both of us bachelors, had been selected. (In the words of Gen Matinuddin, ‘On 15 December Niazi sent a signal to Manekshaw accepting a conditional ceasefire in East Pakistan. Major Liaqat Asrar Bukhari, commanding 4 Army Aviation Squadron in East Pakistan to the General on that day that he was prepared to fly his team out in the hours of darkness to Burma if permitted to do so. Air Commodore Inamul Haq felt that on view of total air superiority enjoyed by the IAF that it would not be possible. Rear Admiral Sharif opined that Liaqat should be allowed to give it a try, as several helicopters would be prevented from falling into enemy hands. General Niazi agreed and ordered Liaqat to take Major General Rahim with him as he was wounded and that he had to send some important documents through him to Islamabad. He also informed Liaqat that some nurses would also be sent with him.’). That night there was complete chaos and confusion as everyone tried to get their families onto the departing helicopters. The situation got out of control of the pilots, and there was much shoving and pushing, as many more than the authorized loads tried to cram into the helicopters. (General Matin says that 139 women and children were evacuated that night, nearly double the number normally permissible). There was no sign of any nurses at the takeoff points, and there was no time to be wasted by delaying the departure so as to exit East Pakistani air space before dawn, so at about 3 a.m. on 16 December four Mi 8s and two Alouettes got airborne and were on their way south, of which I was informed by the ‘Killer’ radar still operating at Dacca. The PAF personnel manning the radar then destroyed it, and the F-86 jets at the airfield to avoid their falling into enemy hands. Next morning, to my surprise Major Saghir and Masood Anwar, who were supposed to have escaped with the other aircraft, came to the squadron command post, which I had been manning, and said that they had been unable to go because their Allouette would not start. After much persuasion and cajoling they convinced me that we should seek permission from the Eastern Command to fly out in daylight. The scene at the Headquarters was chaotic,

since the hour of the surrender was drawing near. I think it was Air Commodore Inam who gave us a hell of a rocket for still being around, and told us to take the helicopters and make a dash for it. He also asked by me to take a PAF officer with him since he was no longer needed.

‘We drove back to where our helicopters were parked; Major Saghir’s was at some distance from mine and I lost contact with him till we met in Akyab later that day. We loaded up independently, with spare fuel since the endurance of the Alouettes was much less than the flying time to Akyab (the Mi-8s were equipped with long distance ferry tanks), started up and took off, passing over the reception party lining up to receive General Aurora at the airport. Skimming the trees, we headed south. Some distance from Chittagong, the fuel filter warning light came up, indicating that it was clogged, and an emergency landing must be made to clean or replace it, otherwise the engine would be starved of fuel in a few minutes.

Being hostile territory, we flew on regardless for quite some time, till we reached the Arakan forests, where we found a small patch of clearing to land in. Major Ijaz Minhas set about changing the fuel filter, while we poured unfiltered fuel straight from the jerry cans into the fuel tanks without any filtration, some thing which is never normally done. In this process some primitive tribesmen wandered over to our position, and had to be kept at bay by one of pointing a sub-machine gun at them. Then, when we were ready to go, the engine would not light up when cranked. A second and a third attempt yielded the same results: the fuel was just not getting to the engine. By now the battery had been almost drained. It was a devastating feeling, after having escaped from Dacca, to be stranded in a jungle hundreds of miles from nowhere. After giving the battery some time to recoup, with prayers on our lips and our hearts in our mouths, I cranked the engine for one last try. Slowly and sluggishly, after what seemed an eternity, the engine finally lit up and picked up speed. We lifted off, and made it into Akyab as dusk was beginning to fall.

‘The Burmese authorities confined us, and the crew and passengers who had arrived earlier in the day, wanting us to know who we were and why we had entered Burmese airspace without permission. They would not buy the story that all the crew and aircraft were civilians, and soon established our true identities, despite our civilian clothes and the obliterated military markings on the aircraft. Within a few days, all of us, including those who had arrived earlier by Mi 8, were sent to Rangoon, some by air, and others by road, and handed over to the Pakistan Embassy for repatriation. A few weeks later, we all flew back via Colombo and thence to Karachi, where we were welcomed back by Brigadier G. Jabbar, Base Commander of Army Aviation Base, Dhamial (later Qasim Base). A few weeks later, Pakistani crew were allowed back into Burma to ferry the helicopters to Bangkok, from where they were shipped out to Karachi.

*End Notes*
1.Air Commodore (later Air Marshal) Inam ul Haq, the senior PAF officer in East Pakistan, was instrumental in getting all the PAF pilots out of Dacca soon after the airfield at Dacca became permanently non-operational in PIA and Plant Protection Department aircraft, which all flew out to Burma. He himself, however, stuck to his post and then was taken as POW.

2.It is not known whether Pakistan ever acknowledged its debt to Burma for not handing over the crew, passengers and the aircraft that sought refuge on its shores despite demands to that effect from Bangladesh and India for their return.

3.Zareef has had more than his share of luck in his long aviation career, beginning with a tail rotor control failure as a student pilot when learning to fly an OH-13S helicopter in 1969. He executed a safe landing. The cause of the control failure was a mechanic using a used cotter pin instead of a new one to secure the retaining nut after he had worked on the tail rotor (I was then in charge of OH-13S maintenance!) He now flies for Askari Aviation. May his luck never run out.

DJ

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## Sine Nomine

fatman17 said:


> *DEFENCE NOTES*
> 
> *Last Flight from East Pakistan*
> 
> Columnist Brig (Retd) SHER KHAN discusses the amazing escape of the complete Army Aviation Detachment personnel from East Pakistan in December 1971.
> 
> *O*n December 16, 1971, at 1:05 p.m., an Allouette 3 helicopter of the Pakistan Army took off from near Dacca airport, and flew past the airfield where preparations were afoot at the VIP helipad at the foot of the ATC tower for receiving General Aurora, commander of the Indian forces that had attacked East Pakistan earlier in the month. Flying at deck level, the helicopter, piloted by Major Mohammad Zareef Bangash, headed southward towards the Burmese city of Akyab at the northern tip of that country. Also on board were Major Tauhid ul Haq, another Allouette pilot, Major Ijaz Minhas, an aviation engineer, and a PAF squadron leader; in the rear seat were ten jerry cans of spare jet fuel for refuelling en route, since this type of helicopter did not have the endurance to reach its destination on the fuel in its tanks. After about four and a half hours of flying, skimming the Bay of Bengal and the terrain to avoid detection by Indian naval forces which had a very strong presence in the Bay of Bengal, and an additional hour or so spent in refuelling in the Arakan jungles south of Chittagong, the helicopter set down safely at Akyab towards dusk. That same fateful day in the history of Pakistan, and an inglorious day in the history of the Pakistan Armed Forces, in the words of Lt General Kamal Matiuddin in his book on the Indo-Pakistan War of 1971, ‘Lieutenant General Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi, H.J, S.J, MC, Mention in Despatches, signed the instrument of surrender at 4:31 p.m. on 16 December, 1971 and handed over the control of Pakistan’s eastern province to its bitterest enemy.’
> 
> Recently I got Zareef, now a retired colonel, to talk about his memorable flight of nearly three decades ago. It is an interesting tale, worth sharing with the readers; it may also help shed some light on some of the controversies that have arisen in the wake of the publication of parts of the Hamood ur Rehman Commission Report, and hopefully will not open up new ones. Here is the gist of an hour-long chat:
> 
> ‘In the early part of April 1971, soon after the ‘military crackdown’ of 25 March 1971, I was ordered to proceed to Karachi for duty in East Pakistan with the Aviation Logistic Flight attached to Eastern Command. There were three other fixed wing pilots with me. At Karachi airport, we boarded a PIA Boeing 707 from the Hajj Terminal along with a company or so strength of Khyber Rifles, whose men were carrying their arms and ammunition with them. Soon after we were airborne, the pilot called me to the cockpit, and enquired what we had loaded on to the airplane, saying that he had just managed to barely lift the aircraft off the end of the runway because it was much too heavy, and advising us to be a little more careful about weight in the future. Anyhow we had an uneventful flight till Colombo (direct flights over India to Dacca having been banned in the wake of the engineered Ganga hijacking incident), when the pilot called me into the cockpit again. This time, he reported that two Indian fighters were tailing him. He, therefore, climbed higher and gave more throttle to gain speed, and lost the fighters, but flying up the eastern coast of India, he was again similarly harassed by Indian aircraft a number of times. Anyhow, we landed at Dacca quite safely, and took up our duties.
> 
> ‘Since there were no Army airplanes in East Pakistan, we were converted onto Cessnas of the flying club, and Beavers of the Plant Protection Department. We would then be tasked to fly all kinds of missions, such as command and liaison, observation, reconnaissance, etc, apart from conducting the occasional artillery shoots from the air onto Indian concentrations close to the border. One of the most memorable ones was an artillery shoot in the Feni area, with Major General Qazi, if I recall correctly, the 33 Division commander himself sitting in the aircraft, along with one of his artillery unit commanders. There was a Plant Protection pilot at the controls of the Beaver, I was his co-pilot and observer, and we flew for over five hours that day, shooting at and registering targets across the border. For better observation, we were flying at around five thousand feet above the ground. During the flight, at times we would get the feeling as if the aircraft had been hit by ground fire, but there seemed to be no physical evidence of it.
> 
> Later on, we learnt that we were being fired upon by Indian air defence artillery guns, but since the fuses on the ammunition were designed to detonate at around four and a half thousand feet, they were bursting below us. Mercifully, the Indians did not call up any fighters to engage us.
> 
> ‘Around the first week of May, I reported back to Dhamial Camp near Rawalpindi for conversion on Allouette 3 helicopters, and in October I, was sent back to East Pakistan. By that time, the Army Aviation Squadron had arrived there in full strength, so as such there were six Mi 8 and six Allocate 3 helicopters operating under Eastern Command. In the months leading up to the break out of open hostilities by the Indian Army crossing the international borders, the squadron was kept busy flying a host of varied missions, including resupply of arms and ammunition, taking General Niazi and his staff to various formations and headquarters, besides carrying regular troops and commandos to regain positions taken by the Mukti Bahini, etc. One of the frequent missions was to take around international observers and media teams to various points and areas were the Mukti Bahini and Indian agents had engaged in hostilities or had perpetrated atrocities, etc. Apart from Alouette flying with senior captains like the late Nauman Mahmood, Saghir, etc, I would occasionally sit in the copilot’s seat of the Mi 8s also when there was a shortage of crew. On Eid day in November, General Niazi went around the various headquarters by helicopter to meet and greet the troops. That day, we learnt that one of our PAF aircraft which had intruded into India had been shot down and the pilot baled out, while the other damaged aircraft, flown if I recall correctly by PQ Mehdi, the recently retired Air Chief, managed to make it back to Dacca. By then there were a lot of hostilities taking place, the Muktis were getting very active, and all of our troops deployed in various sectors were bracing for the impending Indian invasion, which seemed imminent.
> 
> Because of the Mukti factor, communications by land and riverine craft had become very hazardous and in some instances impossible, so the helicopters and their crew were constantly pressed into service. One of our main missions was to evacuate casualties, and sometimes taking artillery shoots against troop concentrations across the border. One of my most painful missions was to conduct a shoot onto my own battalion, into which I had been commissioned and spent the first four years of my service with, i.e. 4 Bengal Regiment, at Barab Bazar, when Pakistani forces were trying to retake the place. I must say that the EME maintenance crew did a remarkable job keeping the helicopters serviceable despite their non-stop commitment, when removed from their main logistical and maintenance base in West Pakistan. On a lighter note, one of our missions was to resupply the government treasuries in different towns which had been looted. For some one earning a few hundred rupees a month, it was a mouth-watering experience to transport crores of rupees by helicopter.
> 
> ‘As soon as the war broke out in December, the helicopters were dispersed all over the Dacca cantonment. The Indians bombarded the Dacca airfield and disabled it at the outset, and the PAF aircraft could not take off. Thereafter, the Indians dominated the skies completely, so that most of our flying became restricted to the night time. The squadron flew extensively throughout this period, mostly at night, flying blindly since even putting on the landing lights drew intense ground fire. Luckily, my four years of early service in East Pakistan was a great help since I knew the terrain very well. A couple of days before the surrender took place, I was detailed to fly a staff officer from Eastern Command to some of the subordinate headquarters whose communications had been cut off. Wherever we landed he handed out an envelope to the local commander, which drew reactions from resigned acceptance to fury: the envelopes contained news of the impending surrender. I remember that the most furious reaction was that of the officer commanding the Chittagong garrison, which had been cut off from the rest of the country early in the conflict, and had been blockaded by the Indian Navy. He flung the orders in our face, saying that he would not accept an abject surrender when his troops had not even been bloodied! Anyhow, he allowed the Commissioner and DIG Police, both West Pakistanis, to be evacuated to Dacca in my helicopter.
> 
> ‘On 15 December, the Squadron Commander, Lt Col Liaqat Asrar Bukhari held a conference, and told the officers that he had been permitted/ordered by Eastern Command to evacuate all the serviceable aircraft that night to Akyab in Burma, along with the maximum number of women and children. However, one Allouette and its crew were to stay back at the disposal of General Niazi should he need it for any reason.
> 
> Tauhid ul Haq and I, both of us bachelors, had been selected. (In the words of Gen Matinuddin, ‘On 15 December Niazi sent a signal to Manekshaw accepting a conditional ceasefire in East Pakistan. Major Liaqat Asrar Bukhari, commanding 4 Army Aviation Squadron in East Pakistan to the General on that day that he was prepared to fly his team out in the hours of darkness to Burma if permitted to do so. Air Commodore Inamul Haq felt that on view of total air superiority enjoyed by the IAF that it would not be possible. Rear Admiral Sharif opined that Liaqat should be allowed to give it a try, as several helicopters would be prevented from falling into enemy hands. General Niazi agreed and ordered Liaqat to take Major General Rahim with him as he was wounded and that he had to send some important documents through him to Islamabad. He also informed Liaqat that some nurses would also be sent with him.’). That night there was complete chaos and confusion as everyone tried to get their families onto the departing helicopters. The situation got out of control of the pilots, and there was much shoving and pushing, as many more than the authorized loads tried to cram into the helicopters. (General Matin says that 139 women and children were evacuated that night, nearly double the number normally permissible). There was no sign of any nurses at the takeoff points, and there was no time to be wasted by delaying the departure so as to exit East Pakistani air space before dawn, so at about 3 a.m. on 16 December four Mi 8s and two Alouettes got airborne and were on their way south, of which I was informed by the ‘Killer’ radar still operating at Dacca. The PAF personnel manning the radar then destroyed it, and the F-86 jets at the airfield to avoid their falling into enemy hands. Next morning, to my surprise Major Saghir and Masood Anwar, who were supposed to have escaped with the other aircraft, came to the squadron command post, which I had been manning, and said that they had been unable to go because their Allouette would not start. After much persuasion and cajoling they convinced me that we should seek permission from the Eastern Command to fly out in daylight. The scene at the Headquarters was chaotic,
> 
> since the hour of the surrender was drawing near. I think it was Air Commodore Inam who gave us a hell of a rocket for still being around, and told us to take the helicopters and make a dash for it. He also asked by me to take a PAF officer with him since he was no longer needed.
> 
> ‘We drove back to where our helicopters were parked; Major Saghir’s was at some distance from mine and I lost contact with him till we met in Akyab later that day. We loaded up independently, with spare fuel since the endurance of the Alouettes was much less than the flying time to Akyab (the Mi-8s were equipped with long distance ferry tanks), started up and took off, passing over the reception party lining up to receive General Aurora at the airport. Skimming the trees, we headed south. Some distance from Chittagong, the fuel filter warning light came up, indicating that it was clogged, and an emergency landing must be made to clean or replace it, otherwise the engine would be starved of fuel in a few minutes.
> 
> Being hostile territory, we flew on regardless for quite some time, till we reached the Arakan forests, where we found a small patch of clearing to land in. Major Ijaz Minhas set about changing the fuel filter, while we poured unfiltered fuel straight from the jerry cans into the fuel tanks without any filtration, some thing which is never normally done. In this process some primitive tribesmen wandered over to our position, and had to be kept at bay by one of pointing a sub-machine gun at them. Then, when we were ready to go, the engine would not light up when cranked. A second and a third attempt yielded the same results: the fuel was just not getting to the engine. By now the battery had been almost drained. It was a devastating feeling, after having escaped from Dacca, to be stranded in a jungle hundreds of miles from nowhere. After giving the battery some time to recoup, with prayers on our lips and our hearts in our mouths, I cranked the engine for one last try. Slowly and sluggishly, after what seemed an eternity, the engine finally lit up and picked up speed. We lifted off, and made it into Akyab as dusk was beginning to fall.
> 
> ‘The Burmese authorities confined us, and the crew and passengers who had arrived earlier in the day, wanting us to know who we were and why we had entered Burmese airspace without permission. They would not buy the story that all the crew and aircraft were civilians, and soon established our true identities, despite our civilian clothes and the obliterated military markings on the aircraft. Within a few days, all of us, including those who had arrived earlier by Mi 8, were sent to Rangoon, some by air, and others by road, and handed over to the Pakistan Embassy for repatriation. A few weeks later, we all flew back via Colombo and thence to Karachi, where we were welcomed back by Brigadier G. Jabbar, Base Commander of Army Aviation Base, Dhamial (later Qasim Base). A few weeks later, Pakistani crew were allowed back into Burma to ferry the helicopters to Bangkok, from where they were shipped out to Karachi.
> 
> *End Notes*
> 1.Air Commodore (later Air Marshal) Inam ul Haq, the senior PAF officer in East Pakistan, was instrumental in getting all the PAF pilots out of Dacca soon after the airfield at Dacca became permanently non-operational in PIA and Plant Protection Department aircraft, which all flew out to Burma. He himself, however, stuck to his post and then was taken as POW.
> 
> 2.It is not known whether Pakistan ever acknowledged its debt to Burma for not handing over the crew, passengers and the aircraft that sought refuge on its shores despite demands to that effect from Bangladesh and India for their return.
> 
> 3.Zareef has had more than his share of luck in his long aviation career, beginning with a tail rotor control failure as a student pilot when learning to fly an OH-13S helicopter in 1969. He executed a safe landing. The cause of the control failure was a mechanic using a used cotter pin instead of a new one to secure the retaining nut after he had worked on the tail rotor (I was then in charge of OH-13S maintenance!) He now flies for Askari Aviation. May his luck never run out.
> 
> DJ


salute to Army Aviation of Pakistan Army.

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## zeeshanvita

Pakistan getting MI 28 from Russia..

Here is a link to the news..

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## chauvunist

zeeshanvita said:


> Pakistan getting MI 28 from Russia..
> 
> Here is a link to the news..




Your post is worth opening a new Thread...Well done..

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## fatman17

Mi-17. what is sticking out under the nose? FLIR


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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 159655
> 
> Mi-17. what is sticking out under the nose? FLIR


don't look like a FLIR ...


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## nomi007

at karachi

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## Donatello

Apparently Russians are in large numbers in Karachi for IDEAS 2014. All of the top hotels are fully booked by visiting delegation.

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## nomi007

Donatello said:


> Apparently Russians are in large numbers in Karachi for IDEAS 2014. All of the top hotels are fully booked by visiting delegation.


some source are saying that pak is also negotiation for 2 mil mi-26
is true


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> some source are saying that pak is also negotiation for 2 mil mi-26
> is true


 
better to get the Mi-38 advanced transport.

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 160665
> 
> 
> 
> better to get the Mi-38 advanced transport.


bro is it true or not


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## LonE_WolF

nomi007 said:


> bro is it true or not



i think there was a report some time back that we were looking to buy mi-26


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## hassan1



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## nomi007

PAA (Pakistan Army Aviation) Bell 412EP and AH-1 Cobra attack chopper flying over Gwadar city.

Pictures taken from pakistan army aviation.

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> PAA (Pakistan Army Aviation) Bell 412EP and AH-1 Cobra attack chopper flying over Gwadar city.
> 
> Pictures taken from pakistan army aviation.


 
looks like patrolling the coastline near the port.


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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> looks like patrolling the coastline near the port.


near gawader


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## Danish saleem

nomi007 said:


> PAA (Pakistan Army Aviation) Bell 412EP and AH-1 Cobra attack chopper flying over Gwadar city.
> 
> Pictures taken from pakistan army aviation.



view of mountains are remarkable.

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> looks like patrolling the coastline near the port.


may be its astola island




or 
paa is protecting gawader port from terrorists


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## fatman17

a well connected industry source, who attended IDEAS-2014 said Russia has offered to give Pakistan four Mi-28NE's as a 'sweetner' to support a future deal. 'the helicopters are coming to Pakistan under the banner of Russia's anti-terror support to Islamabad" the industry source said.'this is the understanding between the two sides'......stay tuned.

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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 160665
> 
> 
> 
> better to get the Mi-38 advanced transport.



Its better and I think BDs should look towards it too.


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## S.S.Haider

Can an ICTO officer with Fsc background volunteer in Pak Army Aviation ??????


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## Mustang_92

hi


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## ghazi52

No introduction...


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## S.S.Haider

I am S.S.haider. I m University Student. I applied in 138 GDp 139 GDp respectively but unfortunately could not clear that in my both attempts.. Currently i am doing BSCS from University Of Central Punjab.. I just Want to Confirm that if a person joins as ICTO. Can he volunteer in Army Aviation If he is physically fit and clears the respective test.


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## Reichmarshal

S.S.Haider said:


> I am S.S.haider. I m University Student. I applied in 138 GDp 139 GDp respectively but unfortunately could not clear that in my both attempts.. Currently i am doing BSCS from University Of Central Punjab.. I just Want to Confirm that if a person joins as ICTO. Can he volunteer in Army Aviation If he is physically fit and clears the respective test.


No


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## S.S.Haider

But i read on Army Aviation Page that a officer from any core can volunteer . First he needs to clear test and then medical ... Officers can volunteer after 2 to 3 years of service and if they have FSc background.. So plz i need proper guidance about this


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## alibaz

S.S.Haider said:


> Can an ICTO officer with Fsc background volunteer in Pak Army Aviation ??????


 I don't think so. An ICTO is supposed to be specialist in his field, I believe it will be wastage


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## Irfan Baloch

nomi007 said:


> some source are saying that pak is also negotiation for 2 mil mi-26
> is true


we need to get ToT for Mi 17 helicopters they are proven and best platforms



S.S.Haider said:


> But i read on Army Aviation Page that a officer from any core can volunteer . First he needs to clear test and then medical ... Officers can volunteer after 2 to 3 years of service and if they have FSc background.. So plz i need proper guidance about this


you already answered your question
so what proper guidance you want?
get yourself in PMA then



fatman17 said:


> View attachment 163348
> a well connected industry source, who attended IDEAS-2014 said Russia has offered to give Pakistan four Mi-28NE's as a 'sweetner' to support a future deal. 'the helicopters are coming to Pakistan under the banner of Russia's anti-terror support to Islamabad" the industry source said.'this is the understanding between the two sides'......stay tuned.


except RPG7, these helicopters are pretty much immune to whatever the TTP and BLA can throw at them.


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## S.S.Haider

Is there a possibilty of third chance for Pma on the bases of higher education ? Because i have spoiled my both chances in 138 Gdp n 139 Gdp 

Is there a possibilty of third chance for Pma on the bases of higher education ? Because i have spoiled my both chances in 138 Gdp n 139 Gdp 

Is there a possibilty of third chance for Pma on the bases of higher education ? Because i have spoiled my both chances in 138 Gdp n 139 Gdp 



alibaz said:


> I don't think so. An ICTO is supposed to be specialist in his field, I believe it will be wastage


Wastage in what terms sir ?


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## nomi007

Irfan Baloch said:


> we need to get ToT for Mi 17 helicopters they are proven and best platforms
> 
> 
> you already answered your question
> so what proper guidance you want?
> get yourself in PMA then
> 
> 
> except RPG7, these helicopters are pretty much immune to whatever the TTP and BLA can throw at them.


lol


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## Irfan Baloch

nomi007 said:


> lol


why you making fun of me brother?


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## alibaz

S.S.Haider said:


> Wastage in what terms sir ?


Cause he is already a specialist in IT.


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## Bossman

SipahSalar said:


> I call BS on your "inside source". Mi-28 is a very expensive helicopter, not some khopra candy jo saath main mil jay gee.
> 
> I recall reading somewhere that iraq bought like 15 of these for $5 billion. Its not a joke.



Havocs cost between 15 to 20 million dollars each. Russian signed a $4.3 B weapons deal with Iraq that included 15 Havocs, 28 Mi35s and 40 to 50 Pantsir short-to-medium-range surface-to-air missile and anti-aircraft artillery weapon systems. $5b for 15 Havocs is incorrect.


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## fatman17

SipahSalar said:


> I call BS on your "inside source". Mi-28 is a very expensive helicopter, not some khopra candy jo saath main mil jay gee.
> 
> I recall reading somewhere that iraq bought like *15 of these for $5 billion*. Its not a joke.


 
now u r talking BS....!!!!!





Z-19, Light Scout / Attack Helo....

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## PakGuns

fatman17 said:


> looks like patrolling the coastline near the port.


its ASTOLA ISLAND..  there's gonna be Pakistan's first marine national park soon..

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## S.S.Haider

alibaz said:


> Cause he is already a specialist in IT.


Ok .. Can they volunteer in Field operations ? I mean Tactical missions or operations


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## SipahSalar

Bossman said:


> Havocs cost between 15 to 20 million dollars each. Russian signed a $4.3 B weapons deal with Iraq that included 15 Havocs, 28 Mi35s and 40 to 50 Pantsir short-to-medium-range surface-to-air missile and anti-aircraft artillery weapon systems. $5b for 15 Havocs is incorrect.



Sorry my bad, but i still dont believe Pakistan is buying Mi-28N like mentioned, nothing is for free.


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## Irfan Baloch

fatman17 said:


> now u r talking BS....!!!!!
> 
> View attachment 164262
> Z-19, Light Scout / Attack Helo....


I think you are right he indeed is talking BS
in terms of numbers and unit cost.


its actually 30 units , not 15 as he claimed. the overall contract was up to 5 Billion but that includes 30 units and the entire support (spares, maintenance, training etc) that comes with it

their unit cost is quiet moderate at 15 to 16 million per unit compared to Apache or Eurocopter that are from 20 to 65 Million per unit averaging at about 40 million per unit depending on its specifications.


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## fatman17

SipahSalar said:


> Sorry my bad, but i still dont believe Pakistan is buying Mi-28N like mentioned, nothing is for free.


 
we just have to wait now wont we....


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## Sulman Badshah

Irfan Baloch said:


> except RPG7, these helicopters are pretty much immune to whatever the TTP and BLA can throw at them


These helo's are comparable to Apache longbow once fitted with MMW radar which will be in mass production by next year... They are pretty much more advance than Mi35 M


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## nomi007

*uh-1 cockpit*
*



*

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## A.Rafay

nomi007 said:


> simple and advance system
> good for paa as well
> it denel dynamics of s-africa


Looks like they have made it Mi-35.


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## A.Rafay




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## DANGER-ZONE

*Long sought PA BELL-412 with FLIR spotted over Army Public School surveilling the operation.*

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## Jango

It's old news...spotted before as well.

Here's another pic.

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## fatman17

at least a dozen Bell 412EP have been modified as such.....


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## HAIDER



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## fatman17

UH-1 of MoI

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## Ahsan Butt

Pakistan Army always done a great job for Motherland ... Thumbs up (y)

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## alimobin memon

Guys I think the deal for 35 and 28 mi's is cancelled. Ah1-z Talks are continued whats going on ?


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## zeeshanvita

alimobin memon said:


> Guys I think the deal for 35 and 28 mi's is cancelled. Ah1-z Talks are continued whats going on ?


What makes you think that the deal is canceled..??


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## Sulman Badshah

alimobin memon said:


> Guys I think the deal for 35 and 28 mi's is cancelled. Ah1-z Talks are continued whats going on ?


Mi35 is still on .. and there was no deal of Mi28 PA only showed interest in it


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## alimobin memon

zeeshanvita said:


> What makes you think that the deal is canceled..??





Sulman Badshah said:


> Mi35 is still on .. and there was no deal of Mi28 PA only showed interest in it


If its on thats good but the only reason AH1Z viper is coming is that mi28 deal is not finalised and mi 35 is on papers only.
Just my IMHO.


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## IrbiS

35 deal is on as the most recent news suggests


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## fatman17

alimobin memon said:


> If its on thats good but the only reason AH1Z viper is coming is that mi28 deal is not finalised and mi 35 is on papers only.
> Just my IMHO.


 
and who says AH-1Z is coming.....?


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## alimobin memon

fatman17 said:


> and who says AH-1Z is coming.....?


by coming I mean the army expects to have it. My point was wrong though corrected by members mi35 is coming. thanks

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## fatman17

Combat Offload - Skardu

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## DIRECT ACTION

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 178442
> Combat Offload - Skardu



actually it is "engine running combat offloading"





i think that pics is taken during this ops..






BTW what is US C-17 doing in Gilgit?? what are the offloading there??


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## alimobin memon

our cobra by the way uses m261 or m260 launchers ? And how many tows max does it carry coupled with 2 rocket launcher pods namely m260 or m261?


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## fatman17

DIRECT ACTION said:


> actually it is "engine running combat offloading"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i think that pics is taken during this ops..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW what is US C-17 doing in Gilgit?? what are the offloading there??


 
this was during 2010 earthquake - relief supplies.


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## hassan1



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## nomi007

looks amir sab
jogar under the salwar qameez

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## Irfan Baloch

fatman17 said:


> now u r talking BS....!!!!!
> 
> View attachment 164262
> Z-19, Light Scout / Attack Helo....


Sir
That kid lacks basic social skills and uses potty mouth whenever he doesnt find a comment to his liking

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## nomi007




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## fatman17

Its very important for the Chinese to get an export order for their Z-10s. This will not only provide the Chinese with first hand knowledge about the capabilities of this platform in actual battle conditions but also open sales orders with other countries looking for affordable attack helos


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## Manticore

just made it

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## Dr. Strangelove

Manticore said:


> just made it


zulu is good but alas we can our hands on it 
my vote is for z-10
lets see how there trial runs in tribal areas go


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Z-10 / T-129 can be upgraded in the long run where as there is limited scope of further upgrades with the other.


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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> Its very important for the Chinese to get an export order for their Z-10s. This will not only provide the Chinese with first hand knowledge about the capabilities of this platform in actual battle conditions but also open sales orders with other countries looking for affordable attack helos


They've been trying to get it some action in Africa too


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## nomi007

*finally get 1st mil mi-35*

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> *finally get 1st mil mi-35*
> View attachment 181845


lolz itna bara helicopter de diya

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> lolz itna bara helicopter de diya



Picture ko zoom kar lo.

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## Stealth

Imran Khan said:


> lolz itna bara helicopter de diya



helicopter helicopter hota hey chahay bara ho chahay chota - Aslm Raisani

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## IrbiS



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## Hurter

nomi007 said:


> *finally get 1st mil mi-35*
> View attachment 181845



Are we? Really?


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## fatman17

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> View attachment 182121



Not sure of these helo numbers!

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## Danish saleem

Pakistan Army Operating more than 10 different types of Heli's, which not only increase the Maintenance cost, but also increase the cost of Training Poilets!
In my opinion, we need 2 or 3 type of Heli's, and try to learn the Technology, and invest in building our own Technology.

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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> Not sure of these helo numbers!


Yes they are disturbing if they're true

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## araz

Danish saleem said:


> Pakistan Army Operating more than 10 different types of Heli's, which not only increase the Maintenance cost, but also increase the cost of Training Poilets!
> In my opinion, we need 2 or 3 type of Heli's, and try to learn the Technology, and invest in building our own Technology.


Considering that China, has struggled with helo/ gunship manufacturing what scope does Pakistan have to develop its own helo. How much do you think will it cost to reinvent the wheel and how many numbers do we need. Secondly who will transfer this key technology to you considering that there are even fewer producers of helo engines. The if you have to import engines are you any less dependant than before. You need to answer this before you can take your thoughts forward. Sometimes it is financially more suitable to buy than to make yourself and this is true if the numbers required are small.
araz

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## IrbiS

araz said:


> Considering that China, has struggled with helo/ gunship manufacturing what scope does Pakistan have to develop its own helo. How much do you think will it cost to reinvent the wheel and how many numbers do we need. Secondly who will transfer this key technology to you considering that there are even fewer producers of helo engines. The if you have to import engines are you any less dependant than before. You need to answer this before you can take your thoughts forward. Sometimes it is financially more suitable to buy than to make yourself and this is true if the numbers required are small.
> araz


Should start production only if you need a hefty number of them required, which in current situation isn't even possible leave aside even if PAA wants or not. 'Hip' is most suitable option to buy 100-200 with building local support structure.

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## Danish saleem

araz said:


> Considering that China, has struggled with helo/ gunship manufacturing what scope does Pakistan have to develop its own helo. How much do you think will it cost to reinvent the wheel and how many numbers do we need. Secondly who will transfer this key technology to you considering that there are even fewer producers of helo engines. The if you have to import engines are you any less dependant than before. You need to answer this before you can take your thoughts forward. Sometimes it is financially more suitable to buy than to make yourself and this is true if the numbers required are small.
> araz



Brothers,

Unique Idea's Win in this world, and if we not work on new ideas and investment on our own technology, till then we will not able to stand on our own foots in next 100 years.

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## araz

Danish saleem said:


> Brothers,
> 
> Unique Idea's Win in this world, and if we not work on new ideas and investment on our own technology, till then we will not able to stand on our own foots in next 100 years.


I think there is no sanity in producing your own stuff if it costs you 20 -30 times more than stuff you can buy or slowly build with licence in due course. Slow and steady steps rather than high and mighty jumps with a lot of egg on chin and huge falls, is the name of the game.
Araz

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Considering that China, has struggled with helo/ gunship manufacturing what scope does Pakistan have to develop its own helo. How much do you think will it cost to reinvent the wheel and how many numbers do we need. Secondly who will transfer this key technology to you considering that there are even fewer producers of helo engines. The if you have to import engines are you any less dependant than before. You need to answer this before you can take your thoughts forward. Sometimes it is financially more suitable to buy than to make yourself and this is true if the numbers required are small.
> araz



Araz sb, contrary to popular belief, china has progressed successfully and much faster in turboshaft engine technology than their efforts in jet engine technologies. Look to see further advancements by china in this sector as many European countries (France in particular) have co-opted freely with China. AFA Pakistan is concerned, the military helo requirements are limited. For local production or JVs, the civilian helo market is essential for such investments.

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## fatman17

According to the WP, PK is in negotiations with Russia for 32 Mi35 armed helos.

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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> According to the WP, PK is in negotiations with Russia for 32 Mi35 armed helos.


Why too much mi 35 .we need them but in limited numbers ...

Why not go for more advance like z10 , mi28 or T129 ???

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## fatman17

Remember it's a multi purpose helo - attack and troop carrier

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## nomi007



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## fatman17

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 188116
> View attachment 188117
> View attachment 188118
> View attachment 188119



Nice indeed

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## fatman17

Sulman Badshah said:


> Why too much mi 35 .we need them but in limited numbers ...
> 
> Why not go for more advance like z10 , mi28 or T129 ???



According to ISHJ, 3 Mi28 will also be sold along with the Mi35. PAA to use in 1-2 punch against the militants. Mi28 leads and Mi35 follows with troops to clear the area.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> According to ISHJ, 3 Mi28 will also be sold along with the Mi35. PAA to use in 1-2 punch against the militants. Mi28 leads and Mi35 follows with troops to clear the area.



ISHJ?

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## Stealth

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> ISHJ?



He means IHS Jane's not ISHJ

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## nomi007

*soon in Pakistani version*

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## Zibago

Pakistan likely to buy China’s Z10 helicopters

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## Ray_of_Hope

nomi007 said:


> *soon in Pakistani version*


Mi 28E?

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## Zibago

nomi007 said:


> *soon in Pakistani version*


no it is not military deals with russia are unpredictable given the new Ukraine crisis i think the z 10 is the best answer to our need of a gunship heli

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## nomi007

fakhre mirpur said:


> no it is not military deals with russia are unpredictable given the new Ukraine crisis i think the z 10 is the best answer to our need of a gunship heli


o loll tere se pouch kar lain ge
pehle start se read kar phir comments de

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## Super Falcon

Mi 35 is far far beter heli it is like apache packed with firepower which our army needs

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Zibago

nomi007 said:


> o loll tere se pouch kar lain ge
> pehle start se read kar phir comments de


Baad mein ronay say acha hay pehlay say tiari kar lain warna yeh bhe ip gas pipeline ban jaye ge

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## nomi007

fakhre mirpur said:


> Baad mein ronay say acha hay pehlay say tiari kar lain warna yeh bhe ip gas pipeline ban jaye ge


o bhai comments karne se pehle earlier posts check kar lo
now paa have mil mi-8/17 overhaul facility in dhamial rwp

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## black-hawk_101

nomi007 said:


>



Will China going to supply them for free as PAA has not money and China also wanted to fight the terrorist.

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## nomi007

black-hawk_101 said:


> Will China going to supply them for free as PAA has not money and China also wanted to fight the terrorist.


bhai agr paisoon ka lena hote to usa se apache or cobra 
ya turkey se a-129 lelete


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

nomi007 said:


> bhai agr paisoon ka lena hote to usa se apache or cobra
> ya turkey se a-129 lelete


China might gift some more on Pakistan Day...


----------



## black-hawk_101

nomi007 said:


> bhai agr paisoon ka lena hote to usa se apache or cobra
> ya turkey se a-129 lelete


So it means now we have new partner that will going to supply weapons for free. PAA should ask about 30-250 of them.


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## fatman17

The Chinese don't gift anything for free. ..

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## DrWatson775

Z10s and Mi35s will make a great combination.

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## IrbiS

This IAR 330SM Puma was acquired by Pakistan Army from UAE.AF in 2009 and is operated on front line by the 'Dragons' squadron

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## black-hawk_101

Why not PAA sell their Cobras to Japan or Korea.

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## Sulman Badshah

black-hawk_101 said:


> Why not PAA sell their Cobras to Japan or Korea.


Do Korea and japan look like that they are getting 2nd hand and outdated things ????

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## black-hawk_101

Sulman Badshah said:


> Do Korea and japan look like that they are getting 2nd hand and outdated things ????


They are upgrading them. Jordan-Baharain-Philipines-Turkey-Pakistan and other AH-1 Cobras operator should look towards selling them as full aircraft or as spares.

As PAA might be getting free of cost 30-50 Z-10Ps from China. Then why not PAA try to get some 2nd hand Mi-17s and Puma series from Muslim countries at cheaper rates?

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## Imran Khan

black-hawk_101 said:


> They are upgrading them. Jordan-Baharain-Philipines-Turkey-Pakistan and other AH-1 Cobras operator should look towards selling them as full aircraft or as spares.
> 
> As PAA might be getting free of cost 30-50 Z-10Ps from China. Then why not PAA try to get some 2nd hand Mi-17s and Puma series from Muslim countries at cheaper rates?


bhai helicopters ki kabari ki dukan na khol leen?

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## Luftwaffe

Imran Khan said:


> bhai helicopters ki kabari ki dukan na khol leen?



Nishsn ka bhoot hai bachkay rah.

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## Imran Khan

jal tu jalal tu ayee bala ko taal tu . purany helicopter kabary ke jhaz or santions waly F-16 ki maut se bacha mery mola 


Luftwaffe said:


> Nishsn ka bhoot hai bachkay rah.

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## Sulman Badshah

black-hawk_101 said:


> They are upgrading them. Jordan-Baharain-Philipines-Turkey-Pakistan and other AH-1 Cobras operator should look towards selling them as full aircraft or as spares.
> 
> As PAA might be getting free of cost 30-50 Z-10Ps from China. Then why not PAA try to get some 2nd hand Mi-17s and Puma series from Muslim countries at cheaper rates?


China only willing to give 3 Z10 for free... This action might secure the deal for money

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## RescueRanger



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## fatman17

black-hawk_101 said:


> Why not PAA sell their Cobras to Japan or Korea.



They have apaches now. They can get new helos from US anytime.

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> bhai helicopters ki kabari ki dukan na khol leen?



Good one!

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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> They have apaches now. They can get new helos from US anytime.


Why they are upgrading the cobra's???

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## nomi007

coming soon

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## Dr. Strangelove

nomi007 said:


> *coming soon*


its getting old dont u think

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## In arduis fidelis

Dr. Stranglove said:


> its getting old dont u think


Not for Talis no.For them its spaceship for Mars which can hunt at night too.Unlike anything which PAA currently has.

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## Dr. Strangelove

Rafay Jamil said:


> Not for Talis no.For them its spaceship for Mars which can hunt at night too.Unlike anything which PAA currently has.


i said coming soon is getting old its been 8 months we are hearing about mi 35s

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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=340267669511398





Live battle Pakistan Army Vs TTP (Tareek-e-Taliban Pakistan).
AH-1 Cobra bombs TTP hideouts.

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## fatman17

Dr. Stranglove said:


> its getting old dont u think



Still early days for such deals.

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## fatman17

Nice article in AFM on Puma Survivors 50 years on. .. and still sharpening it's claws.

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## nomi007



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## Zibago

nomi007 said:


>


But first

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## nomi007

Star SAFIRE III EO/IR sensors employed by PAF and PA on C-130 a/c, Bell-412 & Mi-17 helicopters for tactical recon & assault missions against terrorists.





These sensors provide true all day and all night imaging capability in multiple wavebands. They also point out distant targets to friendly forces, and determine target distance and location.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=917834714928573





*StarSAFIRE III / HD (AN/AAQ-21/22)*
*FLIR Systems / USA*



An advanced multi-sensor EO payload from the USA is the FLIR Systems StarSAFIRE. The StarSAFIRE III version is the most advanced, some 800 are used on 35 reconnaissance and surveillance platforms. StarSAFIRE uses five axis stabilization and high power optics, including Super Narrow field of view, to support operation at extended range. The payload can be configured with 6 (SAFIRE III) or 7 (SAFIRE HD) sensors including 3rd Generation FLIR, CCDTV with haze penetration filters, I2CCD, color spotter scope, laser pointer and illuminator, and laser rangefinder. 








The Star SAFIRE HD system uses a 1,500 mm focal length for mid-wave IR and coaxial “two-in-one” telescope for the visible wavelengths sensors. The system facilitates high precision geo-pointing, directing the payload to look at exact geographic coordinates. Feeds from multiple sensors can be fused into a single image, to obtain optimal contrast and presentation of hidden details, generating up to x3 more information compared to conventional NTSC systems. Multiple video feeds from the different sensors can be transmitted simultaneously over a single datalink for further processing, storage and display. The system carries both wide-area and narrow-beam covert laser illuminators to support covert scene illumination and target pointing.

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> Star SAFIRE III EO/IR sensors employed by PAF and PA on C-130 a/c, Bell-412 & Mi-17 helicopters for tactical recon & assault missions against terrorists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These sensors provide true all day and all night imaging capability in multiple wavebands. They also point out distant targets to friendly forces, and determine target distance and location.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=917834714928573
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *StarSAFIRE III / HD (AN/AAQ-21/22)*
> *FLIR Systems / USA*
> 
> 
> 
> An advanced multi-sensor EO payload from the USA is the FLIR Systems StarSAFIRE. The StarSAFIRE III version is the most advanced, some 800 are used on 35 reconnaissance and surveillance platforms. StarSAFIRE uses five axis stabilization and high power optics, including Super Narrow field of view, to support operation at extended range. The payload can be configured with 6 (SAFIRE III) or 7 (SAFIRE HD) sensors including 3rd Generation FLIR, CCDTV with haze penetration filters, I2CCD, color spotter scope, laser pointer and illuminator, and laser rangefinder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Star SAFIRE HD system uses a 1,500 mm focal length for mid-wave IR and coaxial “two-in-one” telescope for the visible wavelengths sensors. The system facilitates high precision geo-pointing, directing the payload to look at exact geographic coordinates. Feeds from multiple sensors can be fused into a single image, to obtain optimal contrast and presentation of hidden details, generating up to x3 more information compared to conventional NTSC systems. Multiple video feeds from the different sensors can be transmitted simultaneously over a single datalink for further processing, storage and display. The system carries both wide-area and narrow-beam covert laser illuminators to support covert scene illumination and target pointing.



Old news mate

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## hassan1



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## nomi007



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## Rocky rock

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 194420
> View attachment 194421
> 
> 
> View attachment 194442
> View attachment 194443



Thanks GOD you have start moving towards new pics rather than those museum ones..! (y) keep it up

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## IrbiS



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## nomi007

PAA (Pakistan ARMY Aviation) Eurocopter AS550 utility choppers with Mil Mi-17 transport chopper somewhere at northern areas of Pakistan

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## A2Z

Since USA is not willing to upgrade our Cobras and Z-10 is not a matured platform yet best choice for PAA, to fill the gaps is get Mi-35 from Russia asap and look forward to get Mi-28 Havoc in the future, and if by that time USA agrees to upgrade our Cobras that would be cherry on top. But we need to keep in mind that this would only happen after they have given the Indians AH-64.

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## fatman17

A2Z said:


> Since USA is not willing to upgrade our Cobras and Z-10 is not a matured platform yet best choice for PAA, to fill the gaps is get Mi-35 from Russia asap and look forward to get Mi-28 Havoc in the future, and if by that time USA agrees to upgrade our Cobras that would be cherry on top. But we need to keep in mind that this would only happen after they have given the Indians AH-64.



What if India rejects the Rafale deal and opts for the MiG 35. Then doors to PK will again be closed by Russia. Will then France reopen the sale of war materials to PK. If so then the Tiger or Tigre attack helo could come back in the picture. Geo politics at play.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> According to the WP, PK is in negotiations with Russia for 32 Mi35 armed helos.


Some say the number is 40 you are saying the number is 32 lot of confusion

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Some say the number is 40 you are saying the number is 32 lot of confusion


Other sources report 50..

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## A2Z

fatman17 said:


> What if India rejects the Rafale deal and opts for the MiG 35. Then doors to PK will again be closed by Russia. Will then France reopen the sale of war materials to PK. If so then the Tiger or Tigre attack helo could come back in the picture. Geo politics at play


India might not go for Mig-35 they'll buy more Su-30 instead, if Rafale deal is scrapped. And the way India is getting closer and closer to USA and buying more and more western weapons I don't think Russia would refuse to deliver (IF the deal is signed). And there was a reason I said asap because the more time we take in signing the deal more time we are giving the Indians for lobbying.

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## fatman17

The latest news is that US is proposing $500 mill for CT support for Pakistan. This could pave the way for the Super Cobra or additional Cobras from EDA stocks.



Zarvan said:


> Some say the number is 40 you are saying the number is 32 lot of confusion



Most likely figure is 36. Equivalent to 3 PAA squadrons.

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## Dr. Strangelove

fatman17 said:


> The latest news is that US is proposing $500 mill for CT support for Pakistan. *This could pave the way for the Super Cobra or additional Cobras from EDA stocks.*
> 
> 
> 
> Most likely figure is 36. Equivalent to 3 PAA squadrons.


highly unlikely to happen they would most probably give more mraps to us super cobras (we shouldnt dream of them)

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## Zarvan

Dr. Stranglove said:


> highly unlikely to happen they would most probably give more mraps to us super cobras (we shouldnt dream of them)


Well I think if decide to go for MI-28 and Russia agrees to sell them than there are really high chances that USA will try to stop this by offering us super cobras

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## A2Z

Zarvan said:


> Well I think if decide to go for MI-28 and Russia agrees to sell them than there are really high chances that USA will try to stop this by offering us super cobras


If that happens what do you think Pakistan should do? Go for cobras or seal the deal with Russians?

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## fatman17

A2Z said:


> If that happens what do you think Pakistan should do? Go for cobras or seal the deal with Russians?



Cobras would be easier to induct.

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## Path-Finder

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=617364228395389

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## nomi007

Mi-17

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## black-hawk_101

IrbiS said:


> This IAR 330SM Puma was acquired by Pakistan Army from UAE.AF in 2009 and is operated on front line by the 'Dragons' squadron
> 
> View attachment 190952



I think PAA should acquire Puma class and Mi-17s class helicopters from Muslim countries and upgrade them locally.

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## Imran Khan

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think PAA should acquire Puma class and Mi-17s class helicopters from Muslim countries and upgrade them locally.


kabhi kuch nya bhi le liya karo yaar her wakt ka bhikari hona bhi theek nhi

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## black-hawk_101

Imran Khan said:


> kabhi kuch nya bhi le liya karo yaar her wakt ka bhikari hona bhi theek nhi



If Pak has low money then these are best.

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## Imran Khan

black-hawk_101 said:


> If Pak has low money then these are best.


pakistan ke pass high money kab thi ? buy 5 new then 15 old is better and finally we lean it in navy after using 40 years old ships and coppers

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## nomi007

Pakistan Army AS330 Puma on UN mission.

Pakistan celebrated “GOLDEN JUBILEE” of its contributions to UN peacekeeping in July 2011. Currently, 8252 troops of Pakistan Army are engaged in 7 different peace keeping missions across three continents; i.e. Democratic Republic of Congo, Liberia, Ivory Coast, Darfur, Western Sahara, East Timor and Haiti. Our commitment to global peace remains unwavering and steadfast. The performance of Pakistani peacekeepers has been acknowledged worldwide by numerous world leaders and the UN leadership. An undisputed professional standing of Pakistani peacekeepers has made them the passion of every Special Representative of Secretary General and Force Commander in each of UN Peacekeeping Mission.

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

OVER ISLAMABAD

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## IrbiS

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/577809010419593216

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## nomi007

today over islamabad

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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007

Pakistan army Bell 412EP gunship choppers flying over Islamabad.

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## nomi007

best ever picture i ever see




Dhamiyal Base , Rawalpindi Pakistan

its elephant march

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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> best ever picture i ever see
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dhamiyal Base , Rawalpindi Pakistan
> 
> its elephant march

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## nomi007

with gunpod for the 1st time

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## fatman17

The latest rumor (January 2015) claimed that Pakistani Army is interested in leasing 3 Z-10s for anti-terror operations but this has not been confirmed.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> The latest rumor (January 2015) claimed that Pakistani Army is interested in leasing 3 Z-10s for anti-terror operations but this has not been confirmed.




Pakistan Army Takes Delivery Of 3 Chinese WZ-10 Attack Helicopters as reported by airforces daily website

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## fatman17

2 Chinese WZ10 helos are currently being assembled at Qasim army aviation base near the garrison city of Rawalpindi.

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## fatman17

@MkbbcsBeg

@warnesyworld 
3 Z10 attack helos delivered to pakistan army Pl confirm. - Mar 27 

Alan Warnes
@warnesyworld

@MkbbcsBeg Yes - AFM has been supplied with pix.

01:31 PM - 27 Mar 15

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## alimobin memon

During PPP govt. Arms industry decided to construct Heli repair and construction plant I think this is first phase

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## black-hawk_101

I wish that China will give PAA a complete set of 50-70 Z-10s which would be assembled in Pakistan.

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## fatman17

The small number delivered can mean two things. 
1. The helos will be evaluated under real battlefield conditions. 
2. They may also be attrition replacements for the 3 cobras lost in the last 2-3 years.

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan Army Takes Delivery Of 3 Chinese WZ-10 Attack Helicopters as reported by airforces daily website


reports are coming that
they are being assembled in PAC

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## kaonalpha

My response is that of Richard from top gear: YYYEEEESSSS. But let's all hope we get to see it at least and some amongst us might try to obtain to those pictures on Pakistan soil in Action

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## Najam Khan

Earlier this week, One Cobra afflicted heavy damage during CAS to 35 Punjab soliders in Zarbezab, heli came under severe fire from mountain tops. High professional handling by the pilots in taking back heli safely home thus saving a valuable asset.

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## Sulman Badshah

WZ 10 Of Paksitan Army Aviaiton

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## kaonalpha

Sulman Badshah said:


> WZ 10 Of Paksitan Army Aviaiton
> 
> View attachment 209141
> View attachment 209142
> View attachment 209143
> View attachment 209144





Sulman Badshah said:


> WZ 10 Of Paksitan Army Aviaiton
> 
> View attachment 209141
> View attachment 209142
> View attachment 209143
> View attachment 209144



May allah bless you can please send the details where they are located


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## Sulman Badshah

kaonalpha said:


> May allah bless you can please send the details where they are located


i guess Qasim aviation base rwp

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## fatman17

Pakistan Army Takes Delivery of Chinese WZ-10 Attack Helicopters

Posted on 26 March, 



The two newly arrived Pakistan Army Aviation Corps Changhe WZ-10 attack helicopters awaiting re-assembly at an unspecified base in Pakistan.

TWO CHINESE Changhe WZ-10 attack helicopters are currently being re-assembled in Pakistan, after being delivered within the last few days. The helicopters are the first two of a package of three WZ-10s that have been donated free-of-charge to the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps for assessment.

Two of the three will be deployed to the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) region for battlefield assessment in actual combat missions against the militants in the region. The third helicopter will be used for training and testing.

Based on assessment of the helicopters performance in battle, the Pakistan Army may in future place a large order for the WZ-10 to replace its ageing AH-1 Cobra gunships. Usman Shabbir


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## kaonalpha

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan Army Takes Delivery of Chinese WZ-10 Attack Helicopters
> 
> Posted on 26 March,
> 
> 
> 
> The two newly arrived Pakistan Army Aviation Corps Changhe WZ-10 attack helicopters awaiting re-assembly at an unspecified base in Pakistan.
> 
> TWO CHINESE Changhe WZ-10 attack helicopters are currently being re-assembled in Pakistan, after being delivered within the last few days. The helicopters are the first two of a package of three WZ-10s that have been donated free-of-charge to the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps for assessment.
> 
> Two of the three will be deployed to the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) region for battlefield assessment in actual combat missions against the militants in the region. The third helicopter will be used for training and testing.
> 
> Based on assessment of the helicopters performance in battle, the Pakistan Army may in future place a large order for the WZ-10 to replace its ageing AH-1 Cobra gunships. Usman Shabbir


are they not three helicopters in the picture

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## Manticore



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## fatman17

They will look better in the army solid dark khaki color scheme as sported by the cobras

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## Imran Khan

black-hawk_101 said:


> I wish that China will give PAA a complete set of 50-70 Z-10s which would be assembled in Pakistan.


and what pakistan will give in return ? dua ?

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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> They will look better in the army solid dark khaki color scheme as sported by the cobras



Chinese are also developing a new EOTS, similar to Apache as well as a Microwave milimeter radar.


----------



## black-hawk_101

Imran Khan said:


> and what pakistan will give in return ? dua ?


But I really didn't understand that why didn't China and EU supported Pakistan?


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## Imran Khan

black-hawk_101 said:


> But I really didn't understand that why didn't China and EU supported Pakistan?


why should they ? we need to collect $ and go buy whatever we need simply


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## DESERT FIGHTER

I wish we had $$ to start our own chopper project.


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## Imran Khan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I wish we had $$ to start our own chopper project.


limited needs of choppers yar no need of such project as now navy is too weak we need to work on it



black-hawk_101 said:


> I think EU can make funds and let PAF get the 150 FAF M-2000s with upgrades and weapons. This will surely turn the battle ground a lot. Also allow us to scrap the Mirage-III/Vs a bit earlier. With 250-300 JF-17s replacing the F-7Ps/PGs and A-5Cs; F-16s used and new adding more capabilities.


sir jee whats their benefit to do it ?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Imran Khan said:


> limited needs of choppers yar no need of such project as now navy is too weak we need to work on it
> 
> 
> sir jee whats their benefit to do it ?



We need choppers too in the long run .. Bc hat saal flood mein zalalat۔

Navy tou apni hai hi yateem.


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## Imran Khan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We need choppers too in the long run .. Bc hat saal flood mein zalalat۔
> 
> Navy tou apni hai hi yateem.


now we have bigger waters we need to hold them floods relief need cheap choppers sir in civil hands


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Imran Khan said:


> now we have bigger waters we need to hold them floods relief need cheap choppers sir in civil hands


Saien meku aidhi aukhi angreji Kai nai aendi..


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## Imran Khan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Saien meku aidhi aukhi angreji Kai nai aendi..


 kutti kutti kutti BC jo lena ja ker lo helicopter banao ya jungi jahaz ya* thook wala jhaaz*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Imran Khan said:


> kutti kutti kutti BC jo lena ja ker lo helicopter banao ya jungi jahaz ya* thook wala jhaaz*



Bhai ji tension na lo thok Wala hai zati apna... Twaku Jeddah tou Multan aisai Tay lay gai..


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## Danish saleem

these Heli's are for test purposes, because capabilities of these heli's easily checked in war zone, of North Waziristan.
So its the gift, but results also help china to Modify these heli's for future.


----------



## Imran Khan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bhai ji tension na lo thok Wala hai zati apna... Twaku Jeddah tou Multan aisai Tay lay gai..


its not long flight ?

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## Dr. Strangelove

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We need choppers too in the long run .. Bc hat saal flood mein zalalat۔


for transport in long run Z 20 will be avaiable in a couple of years


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Imran Khan said:


> its not long flight ?


Flight choti ho ya barri .. Jahaz jahaz hota hai..


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## Imran Khan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Flight choti ho ya barri .. Jahaz jahaz hota hai..


nope choti flight choota jahaz bari flight bara jahaz


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Imran Khan said:


> nope choti flight choota jahaz bari flight bara jahaz



Bhai jaan bara experience hai .. I only know about mine ..
P.S. chalo chado kyun thread barbad kartay ho..


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## IrbiS

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/582943338531328000








__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/582943747727630336

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## fatman17

Ok stop this silly chit chat



IrbiS said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/582943338531328000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/582943747727630336



Bhai it's confirmed now


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## Sulman Badshah

WZ 10 with Mounted gun ... Previous Pictures were without any mounted Gun

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## aziqbal

Rotor blade is also fitted and looks to be progressing fast , not long before they fly


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## fatman17

Let's kill some talibbunnies

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## ghazi52

Perfect ready for Action...................

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## fatman17

Chinese attack helicopters could soon replace American Cobras in Pakistan

JEFFREY LIN AND P.W. SINGER, POPULAR SCIENCE

APR. 2, 2015, 


Pakistan recently took delivery of three Z-10 attack helicopters, stored at this hangar in the Qasim Army base near Rawalphindi. The helicopters' state of disassembly suggests that Pakistani technicians are working to quickly familiarize themselves with these new helicopters by installing rotor blades and other parts for flight, and then combat.

Since a January 2015 agreement, China has transferred three Z-10 "Thunderbolt" attack helicopters to Pakistan, which has become China's staunchest ally and largest weapons buyer. These three Z-10 helicopters are currently at a Pakistani Army base in Qasim/Dhamial, undergoing testing, maintenance training and modifications for operating in the Khyber mountains.


The Z-10, like other modern attack helicopters, carries a wide variety of missiles and rockets like the HJ-10 anti-tank missile, as well as its 23mm chain gun, which can spit out about 600 8oz shells a minute.

The Z-10 is built by the Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation, with design input from Russia's Kamov Design Bureau. It first flew in 2003, and the PLA and the PLAN currently flies around 80-100 helicopters. The 7-8 ton Z-10 is similar to other attack helicopters like the AH-64 Apache, Mi-28 Havoc and August Westland Mangusta. With its heavy armament of a 23mm cannon, and over a ton of guided weapons including HJ-10 anti-tank missiles, 57mm rockets and TY-90 air to air missiles, the Z-10 is China's frontline attack helicopter, replacing the Cold War era Z-9 (itself a French license copy).


The Z-10's primary sensor is the round turret on the bottom half of its nose,similar to sensor turrets found on UAVs like the Reaper. The sensor turret carries a variety of cameras, including night vision, electro-optical and infrared imaging.

The Z-10 will supplement Pakistan's arsenal of 51 aging American built AH-1 "Cobra" attack helicopters. In particular, the Z-10's greater size allows it to carry more powerful thermal imaging and night vision equipment than the AH-1F, as well as "fire and forget" missiles like the HJ-10 (the AH-1's TOW missile requires that the helicopter maintain line of sight with the target, which leaves it vulnerable to anti-air fire). The Z-10 also has a laser target designator, which could allow it to provide guidance support for missiles fired by the Burraq armed drones.

The PLA currently has at least eight squadrons of Z-10 attack helicopters, for a total of nearly 100 helicopters. If China succeeds in exporting the Z-10 to Pakistan, it would make it a highly competitive export prospect.

Once they enter into service, Pakistans' Z-10 attack helicopter would likely fight in Operations Khyber 1 and Zarb e Azb against Taliban fighters near the Afghan border. The Z-10 would be used, as have the AH-1s, to provide close air support for Pakistani troops, as well as to conduct search and kill mission of high value terrorist targets, and battlefield reconnaissance.


Attack helicopters are surprisingly agile, as this aerobatic Z-10 sprays off colored smoke and fires flares. While high turn maneuvers and smoke wouldn't fool most modern surface to air missiles like handheld MANPADS, flares can still be effective.

Future upgrades for the Z-10 could include a millimeter wave radar similar to the American Longbow system, more powerful WZ-16 turboshaft engines to increase speed and armor, improved infrared and electronic countermeasures, and the ability to network with unmanned systems such as drones. If Pakistan finds the Z-10 to be capable platforms, it would likely replace the Cobra as Pakistan's next attack helicopter. And a successful trail by combat would make the Z-10 very attractive to other foreign buyers. Just another sign that China is making waves in the international arms market, selling increasingly sophisticated systems such as warships, air defense and anti-ship missiles.

MORE FROM POPULAR SCIENCE:


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## nomi007

Manticore said:


>


2nd one is z-19 not z-10

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## DESERT FIGHTER

nomi007 said:


> 2nd one is z-19 not z-10




Both are Z-10s check out the rotors.

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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> 2nd one is z-19 not z-10



Its Z-10. you can clearly see the second tail rotor hub, just above the engine


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## TVVELVEMO$

I would like to congratulate Pakistan for choosing 15 Zulus (AH-1Z SuperCobra) armed with 1000 AGM-114 and a few other sweet items. This will be on all news channels soon. Cheers.

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## mingle

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> I would like to congratulate Pakistan for choosing 15 Zulus (AH-1Z SuperCobra) armed with 1000 AGM-114 and a few other sweet items. This will be on all news channels soon. Cheers.


So heli war started in pak it's pouring like rain from everywhere now chachu in action


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## Imran Khan

some high quality dudes pleasse


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## kaonalpha

Actually my a source very close travelled to GHQ for a formation brigade meeting he told me that Pakistan would be procuring more z10 by the end of this year and that we will also be receiving ah1. Since he said only ah1 I believed we bought more trash who knew we would be receiving AH1Z 

I hate myself right now.

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## TVVELVEMO$

kaonalpha said:


> Actually my a source very close travelled to GHQ for a formation brigade meeting he told me that Pakistan would be procuring more z10 by the end of this year and that we will also be receiving ah1. Since he said only ah1 I believed we bought more trash who knew we would be receiving AH1Z
> 
> *I hate myself right now.*



Self-flagellation is overrated. 
Please do not feel bad.


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## kaonalpha

But to think he actually ment was ah1z. We had already come to a conclusion we wouldn't receive them thank Gen Raheel. The Russian and the chinese for this great news





TVVELVEMO$ said:


> Self-flagellation is overrated.
> Please do not feel bad.


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## fatman17

WORLD NEWS

State Department Approves Pakistan Arms RequestCongress needs to approve any sale


Pakistan aims to buy U.S.-made arms including the AH-1Z Viper helicopter. 
By 

DOUG CAMERON

April 6, 2015 

The State Department has approved Pakistan’s request to buy almost $1 billion in U.S.-made attack helicopters, missiles and other equipment aimed at fighting insurgents in the country’s mountainous north and west regions.

U.S. defense companies are engaged in a three-way tussle with Russia and China to sell weapons to Pakistan, complicated by the need to avoid upsetting neighbor India and its even larger arms’ import market.

The Pentagon said Monday that Pakistan had requested 15 AH-1Z Viper helicopters made by the Bell arm of Textron Inc., as well as 1,000 Hellfire missiles produced byLockheed Martin Corp. and a host of other communications and training equipment with a total value of $952 million, according to a notification to Congress, which needs to approve any sale.


Any deal would be structured as a foreign military sale between the two governments.

“This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations in South Asia,” said the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees U.S. military exports.

Write to Doug Cameron atdoug.cameron@wsj.com

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## fatman17

This is a wow moment


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## kaonalpha

So wait aren't these naval variants so they are going to be given to the army or navy


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## fatman17

Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles


April 2015

PDF Version: 

pakistan_15-05.pdf

Media/Public Contact: 

pm-cpa@state.gov

Transmittal No: 

15-05

WASHINGTON, Apr 6, 2015 – The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $952 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems. Also included are system integration and testing, software development and integration, aircraft ferry, support equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The total estimated cost is $952 million.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to U.S. foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia.

This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counter-insurgency operations in South Asia.

This proposed sale will provide Pakistan with a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft that it can operate at high-altitudes. By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency (NWA), the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these helicopters into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The principal contractors will be Bell Helicopter, Textron in Fort Worth, Texas; General Electric in Lynn, Massachusetts; The Boeing Company in Huntsville, Alabama; and Lockheed Martin in Bethesda, Maryland. There are no known offset agreements proposed in conjunction with this potential sale.

Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips by U.S. Government and contractor representatives to participate in program and technical reviews, as well as training and maintenance support in country for a period of 66 months. It will also require three contractor representatives to reside in country for a period of three years to support this program.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.

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## fatman17

kaonalpha said:


> So wait aren't these naval variants so they are going to be given to the army or navy



Operated by US marines only


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## Sulman Badshah



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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Operated by US marines only



For army


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## Jango

Oh man, Army Aviation is really getting some upgrades...

But let's wait and let them be actually delivered, we all know what happened with the F-16's.


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## Rain

Its Party Tm


fatman17 said:


> Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles
> 
> 
> April 2015
> 
> PDF Version:
> 
> pakistan_15-05.pdf
> 
> Media/Public Contact:
> 
> pm-cpa@state.gov
> 
> Transmittal No:
> 
> 15-05
> 
> WASHINGTON, Apr 6, 2015 – The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $952 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale.
> 
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems. Also included are system integration and testing, software development and integration, aircraft ferry, support equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The total estimated cost is $952 million.
> 
> This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to U.S. foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia.
> 
> This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counter-insurgency operations in South Asia.
> 
> This proposed sale will provide Pakistan with a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft that it can operate at high-altitudes. By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency (NWA), the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these helicopters into its armed forces.
> 
> The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
> 
> The principal contractors will be Bell Helicopter, Textron in Fort Worth, Texas; General Electric in Lynn, Massachusetts; The Boeing Company in Huntsville, Alabama; and Lockheed Martin in Bethesda, Maryland. There are no known offset agreements proposed in conjunction with this potential sale.
> 
> Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips by U.S. Government and contractor representatives to participate in program and technical reviews, as well as training and maintenance support in country for a period of 66 months. It will also require three contractor representatives to reside in country for a period of three years to support this program.
> 
> There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
> 
> This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.
> 
> All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.



Its Party time for Army Aviation. mirchi time for some gurus


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## fatman17

Jango said:


> Oh man, Army Aviation is really getting some upgrades...
> 
> But let's wait and let them be actually delivered, we all know what happened with the F-16's.



It will happen. Times are different


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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> Operated by US marines only



This will provide a great high tech element on top of Z-10s

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## fatman17

Horus said:


> This will provide a great high tech element on top of Z-10s



Only issue is long lead time - 2 yrs before they are delivered.


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## fatman17

Rain said:


> Its Party Tm
> 
> 
> Its Party time for Army Aviation. mirchi time for some gurus



They get the AH 64


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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> Only issue is long lead time - 2 yrs before they are delivered.



In other words they are meant for Indian front

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## fatman17

So what does the future look like 
15 AH -1Z 
30 AH - 1F. Combo of Jordanian and upgraded own 
15 Z -10 if trials are successful 
Don't see how Mi 35 s or Mi 28s come in the picture now.

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## Rain

fatman17 said:


> They get the AH 64


It was in context that we have no money hence we cant buy any decent piece of our armed forces.
Recent buying spree is a start up. lets hope it continues.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Although Pakistan had already enough on PAK-US arms deals and even today the PA aviation is dying to get handful of spares for its aging AH-1F fleet but US let us down, like ever and only the brotherly countries came up to help us.

But never mind we are a tough nation and we are always ready to be screwed by US.

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## Path-Finder

By adding China Turkey Russia Into a competition for Heli's it has really twisted the Yankee arms. But i don't think it is wise for PA to buy American, should be shedding the weight by reducing American gizmos.

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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> So what does the future look like
> 15 AH -1Z
> 30 AH - 1F. Combo of Jordanian and upgraded own
> 15 Z -10 if trials are successful
> Don't see how Mi 35 s or Mi 28s come in the picture now.



15 - AH-1Z
Cobras to be replaced by Z-10 upgrade 
20-30 Mi-35 for Spec Ops/ANF
No - Mi-28 i'd say.

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## nomi007



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## Slides

Horus said:


> 15 - AH-1Z
> Cobras to be replaced by Z-10 upgrade
> 20-30 Mi-35 for Spec Ops/ANF
> No - Mi-28 i'd say.



That's sounds pretty reasonable. I would have hoped for 20 AH-1Zs, but considering the cost, 15 seems okay.

If we also induct the Z-10's in sizable enough numbers, do we really need the Mi-35s? Do they provide any capability beyond the Z-10s or AH-1Zs?


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## TheNoob

Wait, thats one hefty amount.
Whos paying?!


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## Kompromat

Slides said:


> That's sounds pretty reasonable. I would have hoped for 20 AH-1Zs, but considering the cost, 15 seems okay.
> 
> If we also induct the Z-10's in sizable enough numbers, do we really need the Mi-35s? Do they provide any capability beyond the Z-10s or AH-1Zs?



Mi-35 is an Assault Helicopter, the only one of its kind. It can carry an assault team of 8 fully armed SSGs, insert them, then loiter and provide close air support as well as carry out extraction by itself. Its perfectly suited for surgical hit, grab and run ops.

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## Slides

Horus said:


> Mi-35 is an Assault Helicopter, the only one of its kind. It can carry an assault team of 8 fully armed SSGs, insert them, then loiter and provide close air support as well as carry out extraction by itself. Its perfectly suited for surgical hit, grab and run ops.



8 is a very small number of troops to be very effective at anything but the smallest of missions. I'm not sure how useful this capability is. More Mi-17's might be better.

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## Kompromat

Slides said:


> 8 is a very small number of troops to be very effective at anything but the smallest of missions. I'm not sure how useful this capability is. More Mi-17's might be better.



They can escort Mi-17s into battle, 8 is a huge number for SSGs, especially when you are inserting snipers to cover the incoming assault team.

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## Slides

Horus said:


> They can escort Mi-17s into battle, 8 is a huge number for SSGs, especially when you are inserting snipers to cover the incoming assault team.



Yes, that scenario does make sense to me for an advanced scout/sniper SSG element or support team. But, I don't think PAA can operate three different types of gunships. If the AH-1Z deal goes through, it'll have to be either the Z-10 or Mi-35.

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## Kompromat

Slides said:


> Yes, that scenario does make sense to me for an advanced scout/sniper SSG element or support team. But, I don't think PAA can operate three different types of gunships. If the AH-1Z deal goes through, it'll have to be either the Z-10 or Mi-35.



Let's see. I think we will see 3 of them in service.

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## nomi007

*AH-1W/AH-1Z Super Cobra Attack Helicopter, United States of America*

*




*
The AH-1W Super Cobra is the US Marines' attack helicopter. It is supplied by Bell Helicopter Textron, and entered service in 1985.

As well as the US Marine Corps (USMC), the Super Cobra is operational with the Turkish Land Forces and the armed forces of Taiwan.

*AH-1Z Super Cobra upgrade programme*
A major upgrade of the Bell Super Cobra known as the H-1 programme was launched in 1996. The programme calls for the remanufacture of the US Marine Corps fleet of 180 AH-1W Super Cobra into AH-1Zs and 100 UH-1N to UH-1Y utility helicopters to an advanced four-bladed configuration, which will operate to beyond 2020. An upgraded cockpit configuration allows easy co-pilot access to the night targeting system (NTS). These are also remanufactured with "zero-time" airframes comprising advanced technology.

The original two-bladed semi-rigid, teetering rotor system is replaced with a four-bladed, hingeless, bearingless rotor system. The improvement in flight characteristics provided by the four-bladed configuration led to an increase in flight envelope, maximum speed, vertical rate-of-climb, payload and rotor vibration level.

The USMC subsequently decided on new-build rather than remanufactured UH-1Y helicopters and, in February 2008, awarded Bell a contract for the new build of 40 of the proposed 189 AH-1Z helicopters. Four additional helicopters were ordered in September 2008.

*AH-1Z Super Cobra first flight and development*
First flight of the AH-1Z took place in December 2000. The AH-1W entered low-rate initial production (LRIP) in October 2003 with deliveries to be carried out until 2018. Five AH-1W helicopters were remanufactured to AH-1Z standard and took part in flight testing at NAS Patuxent River, Maryland. Sea trials in May 2005 included the first shipboard landing on USS Bataan, Wasp Class amphibious assault ship.

Developmental testing was completed in February 2006 and two test aircraft began operational evaluation (OPEVAL) with the USMC in May 2006. The first production AH-1Z helicopter was delivered to the USMC in January 2007. Phase II of OPEVAL began in February 2008, and the OPEVAL was completed in October 2010. In November 2010, the AH-1Z was approved for the full-rate production. Initial operating capability of the AH-1Z Cobra took place in February 2011.

The Turkish Army selected the AH-1Z King Cobra in July 2000 with a request for 50 out of a total requirement for 145 helicopters. In May 2004, it was announced that the acquisition was to be cancelled. The helicopters were to be built in Turkey by Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI).





*Cockpit*
Northrop Grumman has developed the integrated avionics systems for the AH-1Z. The systems include two mission computers and an automatic flight control system with four-axis stability control augmentation system. Each crew station has two 8in×6in multifunction displays and one 4.2in×4.2in dual function display, based on active matrix liquid crystal colour technology.

The displays are supplied by L-3 Ruggedised Command and Control Solutions. Smiths Aerospace supplied the weapon stores control and data transfer system.

"The AH-1W Super Cobra helicopter was deployed in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom in March 2003."
The communications suite combines the new US Navy RT-1824 integrated radio, UHF/VHF, COMSEC and modem in a single unit. The navigation suite includes an embedded GPS inertial (EGI), a low-airspeed air data subsystem, which allows weapons delivery when hovering and a digital map.

In June 2002, Thales Avionics' TopOwl helmet-mounted display system was chosen for the USMC AH-1Z. The first system was delivered in January 2003. TopOwl, also fitted on Tiger, NH90 and Rooivalk helicopters, has integrated Gen IV image intensifier and FLIR capability and provides transition from day to night use at the push of a button.

*Weapons and missiles*
The Super Cobra can carry both TOW and Hellfire anti-armour missiles and is qualified to carry the Maverick missile. The Raytheon BGM-71 TOW missile has a range of more than 3km and semi-automatic command-to-line-of-sight guidance. The AGM-114 Hellfire missile is manufactured by Lockheed Martin. It is equipped with a semi-active laser seeker and has a range of 7km. The Super Cobra has fire-and-forget capability when firing the Hellfire missile in co-operative mode with laser target illumination.

The Super Cobra was the first attack helicopter to qualify both the Sidewinder air-to-air missile and the Sidearm anti-radiation missile. Both missiles can use the same LAU-7 rail launcher. Sidearm has a range of more than 15km. AIM-9L Sidewinder is an all-aspect, short-range, air-to-air missile produced by Lockheed Martin and Raytheon. The missile has a range of 15km.

The Super Cobra can fire the Hydra family of unguided 70mm rockets or the larger 127mm Zuni rocket bombs. Since 2008, all units are armed with the advanced precision kill weapon system (APKWS), a guided version of the Hydra. The US Army reopened the competition for the APKWS in September 2005 and BAE Systems was selected as the prime contractor on 27 April 2006. A $96.1m contract was awarded to BAE systems by the US Army for design and development of APKWS II laser guided rockets.

The Super Cobra carries a three-barrel, 20mm Gatling gun for close range (up to 2km) engagement and 750 rounds of ammunition. With the gun in a fixed forward position, the pilot can aim by manoeuvring the helicopter. Either crew member can slave the turret to the helmet-mounted sight and aim the gun by looking at the target.

"The Super Cobra carries a three-barrel, 20mm Gatling gun for close range engagement."
The AH-1Z for the USMC is being armed with: 16 Hellfire missiles, six AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles, 70mm rocket pods (7- and 19-shot), and a 20mm gun.

*Sensors*
Targeting for the AH-1W is provided by the night targeting system (NTS), jointly produced by Tamam Division of Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd and Kollsman.

NTS integrates a forward-looking infrared (FLIR) which provides automatic target tracking with a laser designator / rangefinder and video recorder.

Lockheed Martin developed a longer range AN/AAQ-30 target sight system (TSS) for the AH-1Z to replace the NTS. TSS includes a third-generation four field-of-view FLIR based on a 3-5-micron staring array, CCD colour TV, Kollsman eyesafe laser rangefinder / designator and multi-target autotracker. L-3 Communications Wescam supplies the turret assembly. Lockheed Martin was awarded a contract to supply the first 16 systems to the USMC in March 2008.

Longbow International (a joint venture of Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman) is developing the Cobra Radar System for the AH-1Z, based on the Longbow millimetre wave radar on the AH-64D Apache. Cobra is a pod-based radar that can be mounted on a wingtip or in a stores position. Cobra can automatically search, detect, classify and prioritise multiple moving and stationary targets. It has a range of 8km against moving and 4km against stationary targets.

*Countermeasures*
The H1 Super Cobra upgrade includes provision of a new electronic warfare suite. A new radar warner, the AN/APR-39(XE2) from Lockheed Martin, replaces the Lockheed Martin AN/APR-39(V)2 pulse radar warner and the AEL Industries AN/APR-44 continuous-wave radar warner.

The ATK AN/AAR-47 missile warning system has been included in the upgrade suite. AN/AAR-47 uses infrared detectors to detect the missile plume. The Goodrich (formerly Raytheon) AN/AVR-2A laser warning receiver was also added. The infrared countermeasures system is the AN/ALQ-144A developed by BAE Systems IEWS (formerly Sanders, a Lockheed Martin company).

"Super Cobra is armed with TOW missiles."
The helicopter is also equipped with the AN/ALE-39 chaff and infrared flare dispenser manufactured by BAE Systems Integrated Defense Solutions (formerly Tracor) and Lockheed Martin Tactical Defense Systems.

*Engines*
Twin General Electric T700-GE-401 turboshaft engines provide a total of 2,410kW or 3,380shp.

In standard conditions, with an air-to-air ordnance load, the Super Cobra can take off and climb out at more than 4.1m/s on only one engine. It can hover out of ground effect (OGE) at 914m, with a load of four TOW and four Hellfire missiles, full turret ammunition and rockets.

*Performance*

The helicopter can climb at the rate of 8.2m a second. The maximum and cruise speeds of the helicopter are 388km/h and 274km/h respectively. The range and service ceiling are 648km and 3,720m respectively. The maximum endurance of the helicopter is three hours and 30 minutes. The helicopter weighs around 4,953kg and the maximum take-off weight is 6,690kg.

*Orders and deliveries*
Around 63 AH-1W helicopters were acquired by the Republic of China Army in 1990. As of January 2010, 59 helicopters were operational.

In 1990, the Turkish Army procured ten AH-1W Super Cobras to supplement their AH-1F Cobras. Six helicopters were operational as of July 2010. Two more AH-1W helicopters were acquired in early 2011. About 167 AH-1W Super Cobra helicopters are being operated by the USMC.

"The AH-1W Super Cobra is the US Marines' attack helicopter."
The Republic of Korea Army obtained eight AH-1J Cobras in 1978 and three were in service as of January 2010.

The US Navy uses seven AH-1Ws for test and rating purposes on behalf of the USMC. The marine corps took delivery of three upgraded AH-1s from Bell in February 2008. Bell received a contract for 15 upgraded aircraft (11 UH-1Ys and four AH-1Zs) in September 2008 and delivered 20 upgraded H-1 helicopters (14 UH-1Ys and six AH-1Zs) in 2008.

The US Navy ordered 16 Lot 6 H-1 helicopters (five AH-1Zs and 11 UH-1Ys) in March 2009 totalling the entire contract to produce 65 upgraded H-1 aircraft (17 AH-1Zs and 48 UH-1Ys). Bell delivered six AH-1Zs and 17 UH-1Ys in March 2009.

In September 2008, NAVAIR (Naval Air Systems Command) ordered 46 AH-1Zs bringing its total orders to 226.

An AH-1W was crashed at Camp Pendleton, California in September 2011 while conducting training exercises*.*
*
*
*some little bit detail of zulu*

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## DrWatson775

TheNoob said:


> Wait, thats one hefty amount.
> Whos paying?!


The rich and poor alike through general sales tax.

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## DrWatson775

fatman17 said:


> So what does the future look like
> 15 AH -1Z
> 30 AH - 1F. Combo of Jordanian and upgraded own
> 15 Z -10 if trials are successful
> Don't see how Mi 35 s or Mi 28s come in the picture now.


That looks good. However there is a real possibility that this AH1Z deal may not go through to the end. I hope it works out.

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## TheNoob

DrWatson775 said:


> The rich and poor alike through general sales tax.



THE NATION SHOULD THANK ME FOR BUYING ALL THOSE PEPSI BOTTLES AND PAYING TAXES! and so should you. e.e

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## nomi007

AH-1Z
Z-10
MI-35
AH-1 (EX JORDANIAN)
MI-28 

PAKISTAN ARMY AVIATION IS GOING TO TRANSFORM INTO MODERN AVIATION CORPS

PAKISTAN ARMY AVIATION CORP IS MOST ADVANCE CORP IN THE REGION

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## fatman17

Horus said:


> 15 - AH-1Z
> Cobras to be replaced by Z-10 upgrade
> 20-30 Mi-35 for Spec Ops/ANF
> No - Mi-28 i'd say.



The Cobra 1F will continue for some time to come. Also would be used as a training platform static or otherwise.

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## fatman17

DrWatson775 said:


> That looks good. However there is a real possibility that this AH1Z deal may not go through to the end. I hope it works out.



Pray tell

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> *AH-1W/AH-1Z Super Cobra Attack Helicopter, United States of America*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> The AH-1W Super Cobra is the US Marines' attack helicopter. It is supplied by Bell Helicopter Textron, and entered service in 1985.
> 
> As well as the US Marine Corps (USMC), the Super Cobra is operational with the Turkish Land Forces and the armed forces of Taiwan.
> 
> *AH-1Z Super Cobra upgrade programme*
> A major upgrade of the Bell Super Cobra known as the H-1 programme was launched in 1996. The programme calls for the remanufacture of the US Marine Corps fleet of 180 AH-1W Super Cobra into AH-1Zs and 100 UH-1N to UH-1Y utility helicopters to an advanced four-bladed configuration, which will operate to beyond 2020. An upgraded cockpit configuration allows easy co-pilot access to the night targeting system (NTS). These are also remanufactured with "zero-time" airframes comprising advanced technology.
> 
> The original two-bladed semi-rigid, teetering rotor system is replaced with a four-bladed, hingeless, bearingless rotor system. The improvement in flight characteristics provided by the four-bladed configuration led to an increase in flight envelope, maximum speed, vertical rate-of-climb, payload and rotor vibration level.
> 
> The USMC subsequently decided on new-build rather than remanufactured UH-1Y helicopters and, in February 2008, awarded Bell a contract for the new build of 40 of the proposed 189 AH-1Z helicopters. Four additional helicopters were ordered in September 2008.
> 
> *AH-1Z Super Cobra first flight and development*
> First flight of the AH-1Z took place in December 2000. The AH-1W entered low-rate initial production (LRIP) in October 2003 with deliveries to be carried out until 2018. Five AH-1W helicopters were remanufactured to AH-1Z standard and took part in flight testing at NAS Patuxent River, Maryland. Sea trials in May 2005 included the first shipboard landing on USS Bataan, Wasp Class amphibious assault ship.
> 
> Developmental testing was completed in February 2006 and two test aircraft began operational evaluation (OPEVAL) with the USMC in May 2006. The first production AH-1Z helicopter was delivered to the USMC in January 2007. Phase II of OPEVAL began in February 2008, and the OPEVAL was completed in October 2010. In November 2010, the AH-1Z was approved for the full-rate production. Initial operating capability of the AH-1Z Cobra took place in February 2011.
> 
> The Turkish Army selected the AH-1Z King Cobra in July 2000 with a request for 50 out of a total requirement for 145 helicopters. In May 2004, it was announced that the acquisition was to be cancelled. The helicopters were to be built in Turkey by Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Cockpit*
> Northrop Grumman has developed the integrated avionics systems for the AH-1Z. The systems include two mission computers and an automatic flight control system with four-axis stability control augmentation system. Each crew station has two 8in×6in multifunction displays and one 4.2in×4.2in dual function display, based on active matrix liquid crystal colour technology.
> 
> The displays are supplied by L-3 Ruggedised Command and Control Solutions. Smiths Aerospace supplied the weapon stores control and data transfer system.
> 
> "The AH-1W Super Cobra helicopter was deployed in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom in March 2003."
> The communications suite combines the new US Navy RT-1824 integrated radio, UHF/VHF, COMSEC and modem in a single unit. The navigation suite includes an embedded GPS inertial (EGI), a low-airspeed air data subsystem, which allows weapons delivery when hovering and a digital map.
> 
> In June 2002, Thales Avionics' TopOwl helmet-mounted display system was chosen for the USMC AH-1Z. The first system was delivered in January 2003. TopOwl, also fitted on Tiger, NH90 and Rooivalk helicopters, has integrated Gen IV image intensifier and FLIR capability and provides transition from day to night use at the push of a button.
> 
> *Weapons and missiles*
> The Super Cobra can carry both TOW and Hellfire anti-armour missiles and is qualified to carry the Maverick missile. The Raytheon BGM-71 TOW missile has a range of more than 3km and semi-automatic command-to-line-of-sight guidance. The AGM-114 Hellfire missile is manufactured by Lockheed Martin. It is equipped with a semi-active laser seeker and has a range of 7km. The Super Cobra has fire-and-forget capability when firing the Hellfire missile in co-operative mode with laser target illumination.
> 
> The Super Cobra was the first attack helicopter to qualify both the Sidewinder air-to-air missile and the Sidearm anti-radiation missile. Both missiles can use the same LAU-7 rail launcher. Sidearm has a range of more than 15km. AIM-9L Sidewinder is an all-aspect, short-range, air-to-air missile produced by Lockheed Martin and Raytheon. The missile has a range of 15km.
> 
> The Super Cobra can fire the Hydra family of unguided 70mm rockets or the larger 127mm Zuni rocket bombs. Since 2008, all units are armed with the advanced precision kill weapon system (APKWS), a guided version of the Hydra. The US Army reopened the competition for the APKWS in September 2005 and BAE Systems was selected as the prime contractor on 27 April 2006. A $96.1m contract was awarded to BAE systems by the US Army for design and development of APKWS II laser guided rockets.
> 
> The Super Cobra carries a three-barrel, 20mm Gatling gun for close range (up to 2km) engagement and 750 rounds of ammunition. With the gun in a fixed forward position, the pilot can aim by manoeuvring the helicopter. Either crew member can slave the turret to the helmet-mounted sight and aim the gun by looking at the target.
> 
> "The Super Cobra carries a three-barrel, 20mm Gatling gun for close range engagement."
> The AH-1Z for the USMC is being armed with: 16 Hellfire missiles, six AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles, 70mm rocket pods (7- and 19-shot), and a 20mm gun.
> 
> *Sensors*
> Targeting for the AH-1W is provided by the night targeting system (NTS), jointly produced by Tamam Division of Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd and Kollsman.
> 
> NTS integrates a forward-looking infrared (FLIR) which provides automatic target tracking with a laser designator / rangefinder and video recorder.
> 
> Lockheed Martin developed a longer range AN/AAQ-30 target sight system (TSS) for the AH-1Z to replace the NTS. TSS includes a third-generation four field-of-view FLIR based on a 3-5-micron staring array, CCD colour TV, Kollsman eyesafe laser rangefinder / designator and multi-target autotracker. L-3 Communications Wescam supplies the turret assembly. Lockheed Martin was awarded a contract to supply the first 16 systems to the USMC in March 2008.
> 
> Longbow International (a joint venture of Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman) is developing the Cobra Radar System for the AH-1Z, based on the Longbow millimetre wave radar on the AH-64D Apache. Cobra is a pod-based radar that can be mounted on a wingtip or in a stores position. Cobra can automatically search, detect, classify and prioritise multiple moving and stationary targets. It has a range of 8km against moving and 4km against stationary targets.
> 
> *Countermeasures*
> The H1 Super Cobra upgrade includes provision of a new electronic warfare suite. A new radar warner, the AN/APR-39(XE2) from Lockheed Martin, replaces the Lockheed Martin AN/APR-39(V)2 pulse radar warner and the AEL Industries AN/APR-44 continuous-wave radar warner.
> 
> The ATK AN/AAR-47 missile warning system has been included in the upgrade suite. AN/AAR-47 uses infrared detectors to detect the missile plume. The Goodrich (formerly Raytheon) AN/AVR-2A laser warning receiver was also added. The infrared countermeasures system is the AN/ALQ-144A developed by BAE Systems IEWS (formerly Sanders, a Lockheed Martin company).
> 
> "Super Cobra is armed with TOW missiles."
> The helicopter is also equipped with the AN/ALE-39 chaff and infrared flare dispenser manufactured by BAE Systems Integrated Defense Solutions (formerly Tracor) and Lockheed Martin Tactical Defense Systems.
> 
> *Engines*
> Twin General Electric T700-GE-401 turboshaft engines provide a total of 2,410kW or 3,380shp.
> 
> In standard conditions, with an air-to-air ordnance load, the Super Cobra can take off and climb out at more than 4.1m/s on only one engine. It can hover out of ground effect (OGE) at 914m, with a load of four TOW and four Hellfire missiles, full turret ammunition and rockets.
> 
> *Performance*
> 
> The helicopter can climb at the rate of 8.2m a second. The maximum and cruise speeds of the helicopter are 388km/h and 274km/h respectively. The range and service ceiling are 648km and 3,720m respectively. The maximum endurance of the helicopter is three hours and 30 minutes. The helicopter weighs around 4,953kg and the maximum take-off weight is 6,690kg.
> 
> *Orders and deliveries*
> Around 63 AH-1W helicopters were acquired by the Republic of China Army in 1990. As of January 2010, 59 helicopters were operational.
> 
> In 1990, the Turkish Army procured ten AH-1W Super Cobras to supplement their AH-1F Cobras. Six helicopters were operational as of July 2010. Two more AH-1W helicopters were acquired in early 2011. About 167 AH-1W Super Cobra helicopters are being operated by the USMC.
> 
> "The AH-1W Super Cobra is the US Marines' attack helicopter."
> The Republic of Korea Army obtained eight AH-1J Cobras in 1978 and three were in service as of January 2010.
> 
> The US Navy uses seven AH-1Ws for test and rating purposes on behalf of the USMC. The marine corps took delivery of three upgraded AH-1s from Bell in February 2008. Bell received a contract for 15 upgraded aircraft (11 UH-1Ys and four AH-1Zs) in September 2008 and delivered 20 upgraded H-1 helicopters (14 UH-1Ys and six AH-1Zs) in 2008.
> 
> The US Navy ordered 16 Lot 6 H-1 helicopters (five AH-1Zs and 11 UH-1Ys) in March 2009 totalling the entire contract to produce 65 upgraded H-1 aircraft (17 AH-1Zs and 48 UH-1Ys). Bell delivered six AH-1Zs and 17 UH-1Ys in March 2009.
> 
> In September 2008, NAVAIR (Naval Air Systems Command) ordered 46 AH-1Zs bringing its total orders to 226.
> 
> An AH-1W was crashed at Camp Pendleton, California in September 2011 while conducting training exercises*.*
> *
> *
> *some little bit detail of zulu*



Pakistan will be the first export customer for the Zulu type

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## nomi007

*one problem still present*



approval from congress
where israeli and indian lobby is strong

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## fatman17

STRIKE

State Dept. OKs $952M Pakistan Helo Deal

By Joe Gould and Usman Ansari


WASHINGTON — The US State Department has cleared a $952 million sale to Pakistan that includes 15 AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters and 1,000 Hellfire II missiles, according to a Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announcement.


The sale is intended to support Pakistan's counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations with a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high-altitudes, according to DSCA's Monday announcement. Pakistan would use the gear in operations in the North Waziristan Agency, the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments.

"This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to U.S. foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia," the announcement says.

The local Bell representatives in Pakistan, Access Zone, did not respond to queries regarding when they expected delivery should the deal be approved, or if they hoped more would be acquired to fully replace the approximately 48 Cobras currently in service.

Analysts in Pakistan expressed surprise at the announcement. Though the Viper had long been suggested as a replacement for the current fleet of AH-1F/S helicopter gunships, US congressional opposition seemed to make acquisition of further US equipment unlikely.

Analyst, author and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, says he was "absolutely certain that the US would not supply any more attack helicopters."

But he welcomes the announcement.

"This is very good news for Pakistan on two counts: First, the Army is getting one of the most sophisticated attack helicopters in the world; second, it shows that the US has not abandoned Pakistan, as so many people thought it had," he said.

"It does require the assent of Congress," said Cloughley, "but if Congress were to block it this would send a negative message concerning its determination to keep up the war on terror."

This is not to say that unrestricted arms sales will resume as "it seems that the main criterion is that US-supplied materiel must be COIN [counterinsurgency] specific. There would be difficulty in providing systems that are obviously intended for general warfare, i.e. against India," Cloughley says.

Claude Rakisits, nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council's South Asia Center, said that "in its deliberations about whether to approve such a sale to Pakistan, the fact that the provision of this new capability will not alter the military balance between the two nuclear-armed states – Pakistan and India – will make it easier for the lawmakers to agree to this sale."

The announcement comes at a time when multiple types of helicopters are being pursued, both to replace the Cobras, and potentially support paramilitary and special forces operations.

Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said that even though it is a small number, the Vipers could replace at least some of the Cobras and it comes at a time when China has supplied three WZ-10 gunships, and Russia may be close to supplying approximately 20 Mi-35 Hinds

Agence France-Press reported Friday that Pakistan has in recent weeks focused its fight against the Taliban on the Tirah Valley, a Federally Administered Tribal Area, with a series of air strikes and ground assaults. Though the area, with steep valleys and dense woods, is inaccessible, Pakistan's military has claimed it has taken control of key terrain there.


Pakistan had sought new helicopter gunships for the best part of a decade to replace the Cobras, which have been fast wearing out due to the pace of operations against the Pakistani Taliban and its allies in and around the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. In November, it appeared Pakistan was closing a deal for Mi-35 Hind heavy attack helicopters, based on a Pakistani radio interview with Russia's ambassador.

The US sale includes 32 T-700 GE 401C engines; 36 H-1 technical refresh mission computers; 17 AN/AAQ-30 target sight systems; 30 629F-23 ultra high frequency/very high frequency communication systems; 19 H-764 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems; 32 helmet mounted display/optimized top owl; 17 APX-117A identification friend or foe; 17 AN/AAR-47 missile warning systems; 17 AN/ALE-47 countermeasure dispenser sets; 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 radar warning receivers; 15 joint mission planning systems; and 17 M197 20mm gun systems.

Bell Helicopter, Textron, General Electric, Boeing and Lockheed Martin will be the principal contractors.

Email: jgould@defensenews.com;uansari@defensenews.com

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> *one problem still present*
> 
> 
> 
> approval from congress
> where israeli and indian lobby is strong



That's always the case. If there was absolutely no chance of this deal then it would never have been approved in the first place. Once congress is informed officially it has 30 days to object. After that the deal proceeds with signing of Agreement.

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## nomi007

some little bit comparison with T-129

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## Rocky rock

nomi007 said:


> some little bit comparison with T-129
> View attachment 213044




It doesn't really look that small if the dimensions are real..!

Well it's good in few terms it must be more Agile and maneuverable. And will not be easy target to shot down..!

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

*Qasim Army Aviation base* *home of Fierce Thunderbolt*

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## nomi007

we also request usa for

surplus 
ah-1w 
which are present in usa
also request 10-15 Chinooks

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> we also request usa for
> 
> surplus
> ah-1w
> which are present in usa
> also request 10-15 Chinooks




Not heard anything

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## syedali73

Horus said:


> Let's see. I think we will see 3 of them in service.


*آپ کے مںہ میں گھی شکر۔*

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## nomi007

*SPECIAL COMBAT UNIT (SCU), KHYBER PAKHTUNKHWA POLICE
Special Combat Unit (SCU) undergoing Helicopter Rappeling Training.










*

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## fatman17

Parent System: AGM-114 Hellfire
Initial Operational Capability (IOC): 1983
Total Production: 98,368
Family Members: AGM-114A Hellfire, AGM-114B Hellfire, AGM-114C Hellfire, AGM-114F Hellfire, AGM-114K Hellfire II, AGM-114KA Hellfire II, AGM-114L Longbow Hellfire, AGM-114M Hellfire II and AGM-114N Hellfire II

The R seems to be the most updated version being supplied to pakistan

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## fatman17

The AGM-114R Hellfire II is a multi-functional missile fitted with a new multi-purpose warhead that enables a single missile to cover all of the target sets of the current laser-guided Hellfire II variants.

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## nomi007

some chinese forum are saying
that
china gifted 2 wz-10
and 1 wz-19 to PAA

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## nomi007

defense minister is in Moscow 

means still mil mi-35 deal is on the table

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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> some chinese forum are saying
> that
> china gifted 2 wz-10
> and 1 wz-19 to PAA



where have you been? They were given to us weeks ago
P.S 
all 3 are Z-10.

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## Donatello

nomi007 said:


> defense minister is in Moscow
> 
> means still mil mi-35 deal is on the table



Mi35 is a different beast compared to the WZ10s, Cobras or ATAKs. It's purpose is different. So i wouldn't be surprised if Pakistan went for it.

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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> defense minister is in Moscow
> 
> means still mil mi-35 deal is on the table


deal is on

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Mi35 is a different beast compared to the WZ10s, Cobras or ATAKs. It's purpose is different. So i wouldn't be surprised if Pakistan went for it.



Mi35 for ANF 4 examples are under discussion

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> deal is on



Backup plan if Cobra deal goes sour god forbid

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Mi35 for ANF 4 examples are under discussion



Sir why not procure about 15-20 units, deploy with the PAA and depute as required by ANF/Customs/MSA/FC etc?
Our Special forces could use the capability as well.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Backup plan if Cobra deal goes sour god forbid


Sir Cobras gonna take time they R new Helis so what options left for stop gap issue ?if we looking only 4examples then we might see T129 or WZ 10 in good numbers

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Sir why not procure about 15-20 units, deploy with the PAA and depute as required by ANF/Customs/MSA/FC etc?
> Our Special forces could use the capability as well.




We shd know in less than 30 days which way army will go.

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## nomi007



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## Reddawn

Why are the troops boarding the helo from the port side door and not the rear ramp?

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## Indus Falcon

Reddawn said:


> Why are the troops boarding the helo from the port side door and not the rear ramp?


It was more convenient

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## Reddawn

That's going to take them ages! The helo is stationary so despite the rear doors being clam shell I wonder if troops can easily embark/disembark? Several more Bell 412s would come in handy.

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## nomi007

A *23mm chain gun* (PX-10A) is mounted under the chin, aimed via gunner's helmet mounted display. The helicopter was also seen carrying a new gun with a reduced weight.

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## nomi007



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## mingle

Hussain Haqqani cum Sabzis from india toasted see guys it's all about money then politics

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## razgriz19

Reddawn said:


> Why are the troops boarding the helo from the port side door and not the rear ramp?


because there's a big *** tail rotor spinning at more than 1000 RPM
safety first.

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## nomi007

*call of duty zarb e azab




*

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## Zarvan

nomi007 said:


>


Don't worry after Chinese President visit USA will soon offer lot of weapons to us this is just a beginning

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> Don't worry after Chinese President visit USA will soon offer lot of weapons to us this is just a beginning


American means bussiness that it they don't care who buying why buying .


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## Windjammer

*Alan Warnes*‏@warnesyworld
Spoke to a company today who is setting up a facility in Pakistan overhauling the AH-1 engines.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> *Alan Warnes*‏@warnesyworld
> Spoke to a company today who is setting up a facility in Pakistan overhauling the AH-1 engines.



Good news which means army is going for additional Cobras new and EDA.

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## fatman17

For A & P training

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## fatman17

ZULU detailed

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## fatman17

Mushshak

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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> *Alan Warnes*‏@warnesyworld
> Spoke to a company today who is setting up a facility in Pakistan overhauling the AH-1 engines.


its mean we are going to add more ah-1w twin engine helos

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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> Good news which means army is going for additional Cobras new and EDA.


it is also for UH-1's


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> it is also for UH-1's



Ok good


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## nomi007

*Assembling Mil Mi-35 in Mil factory



*

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## nomi007



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## ACE OF THE AIR

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 218352


is going be a right off?


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> is going be a right off?



Repairable but in Europe

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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> Repairable but in Europe


Cost would be high for such repair. Perhaps a replacement may be a cheaper option.


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## Shabi1

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Cost would be high for such repair. Perhaps a replacement may be a cheaper option.



Depends on how old is the airframe, can anyone search up the serial number and guess which year it was inducted. Usually I think its declared beyond economic repair if repair cost matches or exceeds 50% of the replacement cost.

Either way since its an Mi-17, it will either be made operational or replaced to maintain numbers.

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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 218352


i think pakistan aviation will contact with mil for repair in pakistan

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## Zarvan

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 218352


That is why I am saying Pakistan needs to go for helicopters from China or with TOT and start producing them in Pakistan so we can repair them to in Pakistan. @fatman17

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## Shabi1

Zarvan said:


> That is why I am saying Pakistan needs to go for helicopters from China or with TOT and start producing them in Pakistan so we can repair them to in Pakistan. @fatman17



Mi-17 production has started in China as part of a joint venture and Mil is making plans on shifting production to its replacement the Mi-38 once its certified. Once that happens there is a chance that maybe Mi-17 production might be completely shifted to China.

Mi-38


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## Zarvan

Shabi1 said:


> Mi-17 production has started in China as part of a joint venture and Mil is making plans on shifting production to its replacement the Mi-38 once its certified. Once that happens there is a chance that maybe Mi-17 production might be completely shifted to China.
> 
> Mi-38


We need new helicopters and at least we need to produce 3 different helicopters for our Armed Forces and produce them in Pakistan

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> That is why I am saying Pakistan needs to go for helicopters from China or with TOT and start producing them in Pakistan so we can repair them to in Pakistan. @fatman17



For helos repair and overhaul facilities makes sense as the overall helo requirements are limited unlike fixed wing.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> For helos repair and overhaul facilities makes sense as the overall helo requirements are limited unlike fixed wing.



Is it not possible for others like Rescue and Medical emergencies helicopters can be manufactured in Pakistan?


----------



## nomi007

after today incident 
PAA need some western cargo helos for vip moments
probably 6-8 
like
ch-47
ch-53
CH-149
AgustaWestland AW101

mil mi-17/8 are not trusty


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> after today incident
> PAA need some western cargo helos for vip moments
> probably 6-8
> like
> ch-47
> ch-53
> CH-149
> AgustaWestland AW101
> 
> mil mi-17/8 are not trusty




So you mean western helos don't crash

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> So you mean western helos don't crash


their crash rate is less than russian
2nd
they are easy to maintain

my grandpa was engineer in paa

he told me that russian helos engine failure ratio was a big problem

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## RAMPAGE

@fatman17

Any infrared countermeasure system installed on our Mi 17s?


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## nomi007

RAMPAGE said:


> @fatman17
> 
> Any infrared countermeasure system installed on our Mi 17s?


most of them have

but this is totally technical fault

waise aj kal america kafi mehraban hai pakistan pe
pakistan america ko keh he de k koi 6-8 ch-53 ya ch-47
de de afghanistan inventory se


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## RAMPAGE

nomi007 said:


> most of them have
> 
> but this is totally technical fault
> 
> waise aj kal america kafi mehraban hai pakistan pe
> pakistan america ko keh he de k koi 6-8 ch-53 ya ch-47
> de de afghanistan inventory se


Why would you even suggest such a thing?


----------



## fatman17

Seven Killed in Pakistan Army Mi-17 Crash

Posted on 8 May, 2015


A Pakistan Army Mi-17 crashed today in the north of the country, killing seven of those on board. AFD-Alan Warnes

A PAKISTAN Army Mi-17 has crashed, killing seven of those on board. The fatalities included the ambassadors of Norway (Leif Larsen) and the Philippines (Domingo D Lucenario Jr), the wives of the ambassadors of Indonesia and Malaysia, plus the two pilots (Major Altamish and Major Faisal) and one other crew member. The helicopter crashed into a school building and set it ablaze today, May 8, after a technical failure as it was preparing to land in the Naltar Valley at Gilgit, northern Pakistan.

There were eleven foreign nationals and six Pakistani crew members on board. Two of the unknown number of injured people were the ambassadors of the Netherlands (Marcel de Vink) and Poland (Andrzej Ananiczolish), who were taken to the Combined Military Hospital in Gilgit for treatment. Other passengers include the ambassadors of Indonesia, Lebanon, Malaysia, Romania and South Africa. The helicopter was one of three Mi-17s carrying diplomats to the launch of two projects in the mountainous Gilgit-Baltistan region. Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif was travelling in one of the other helicopters when the accident happened, following which he returned to Islamabad. AFD-Dave Allport


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## fatman17

RAMPAGE said:


> @fatman17
> 
> Any infrared countermeasure system installed on our Mi 17s?



Later models do but older types I'm not so sure


----------



## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> their crash rate is less than russian
> 2nd
> they are easy to maintain
> 
> my grandpa was engineer in paa
> 
> he told me that russian helos engine failure ratio was a big problem



Only 4 or 5 fatal Mi 17 crashes in last decade. The helo is very durable.

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## Shabi1

Do Pakistani helos have self protection systems installed. MAWS, RWR, Chaaf, and Flare systems seem visibly absent. Our transport fleet needs to have some sort of protection against MANPADs to operate in a modern battlefield.

Maybe Bell-412s, Cobras and Z-9s might have them but not sure. Also PA needs to install IR signature suppressors.

IR suppressors on a US special operations Mi-17

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> Only 4 or 5 fatal Mi 17 crashes in last decade. The helo is very durable.


2nd crash with in a week


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## JPMM

fatman17 said:


> Only 4 or 5 fatal Mi 17 crashes in last decade. The helo is very durable.


 
Dont say that, You have the Portuguese EH101 operating 10 years with 0 accidents, this week we made a new SAR record 930km mission south of the Açores Islands, 12 Hours mission. And I am talking of operating on the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, belive me, I was there from 1994 to 1996 on Terceira Island on military service! You lose one engine, you have two more!

Da semana passada retivemos a passagem dos 10 anos da chegada a Portugal da plataforma Agusta-Westland EH-101 Merlin.
Com ela um enorme salto qualitativo na salvaguarda da vida no mar - na nossa imensa área de jurisdição e responsabilidade, equivalente a praticamente toda a área ocupada pela Europa. O EH exponenciou a tradição do seu antecessor, SA-330 Puma, absorvendo o seu legado mas projetando-o bem mais além.
Ao fim desta década é mais do que legítimo fazer um balanço muito positivo relativamente à introdução deste Helicóptero, muito provavelmente o melhor aparelho para esta panóplia de funções e que proporcionou a Portugal assegurar, com mais proficiência, as missões de SAR, CSAR e SIFICAP.
Ao longo destes anos já se contam por milheres as vidas salvas pelo EH-101, algumas delas no fino limite do tolerável no que toca a esforço e capacidade de Homens e máquina, mas sempre na senda do lema da Esquadra 751 - Pumas que o opera: "Para que outros vivam".
As aeronaves estão estacionadas em Portugal continental, na Base Aérea nº6, no Montijo e em destacamentos na Base Aérea nº4, nas Lajes - Açores e Aeródromo de Manobra nº3, no Porto Santo/Madeira.
Mas o Merlin também se tem notabilizado pela sua capacidade em ações CSAR (Combat Search and Rescue) e nas missões SFICAP (Fiscalização e Controle de Atividade Pesqueira), contribuindo para a projeção de forças de forma rápida e eficaz em cenários de conflito e complexidade estrutural, e na fiscalização da atividade pesqueira, fulcral para a manutenção das reservas de pescado e no combate a atividades ilegais nesse âmbito, respetivamente.
E bom rigor, o EH-101 tornou-se num importante instrumento de afirmação das Forças Armadas Portuguesas e de Portugal, por conseguinte, no âmbito Europeu e até mundial, uma vez que a nossa capacidade para operar o EH-101 já tem sido referenciada como sendo extremamente eficaz e um exemplo a seguir pelas diversas nações que o operam.





Not a movie, real People, real operation, two days ago!

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## nomi007

whole nation proud on you




























*shaheed ki jo maut hai 

woh quom ki hayat hai*

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## fatman17

Latest

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## fatman17

UH1s of ministry of interior

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## fatman17

At lslamabad

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## fatman17

Army Bell at Islamabad

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## fatman17

At a FOB

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> 2nd crash with in a week



Shite happens


----------



## fatman17

Pakistan Army Mi-171 Damaged in Landing Accident

Posted on 10 May, 2015


Pakistan Army Aviation Corps Mi-171 58645 seen following its landing accident at Kohat on May 2.

A PAKISTAN Army Aviation Corps Mi-171, serial number 58645, has been damaged in a landing accident at Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Base Kohat in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province. The helicopter was landing at the base on May 2 after a routine flight when its tail rotor struck a container that was being used as a security barrier and the pilot, Major Shehzad, lost control.

The helicopter’s tail boom was severed, but the Mi-171 came to rest upright on its undercarriage. The pilot and one other person on board were reported injured. A number of containers had been placed on the western side of the base to provide security against terrorist attacks. AFD-Dave Allport

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## fatman17

Namaz e janaza of pilots and crew

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> 2nd crash with in a week



Royal Saudi Land Forces AH-64 ApacheMay 7th, 2015 This helicopter was damaged in an emergency landing just inside the border with Yemen.
Shite happens every where

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## nomi007

beast is coming soon

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## nomi007

@*fatman17*
*AgustaWestland AW101
*
*
Crew: 3–4
Capacity: 26 troops (38 passengers
just for u

share ur opinion 
*

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## JPMM

Rock n`roll
















The Best!!! Its a Rolls Royce
Just 12 Portuguese EH101 can lift 420 men (Portuguese Air Force specify 35 Infantryman per Helicopter)

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> @*fatman17*
> *AgustaWestland AW101
> *
> *
> Crew: 3–4
> Capacity: 26 troops (38 passengers
> just for u
> 
> share ur opinion
> *




If we were an oil rich nation or a gdp of 1 trillion $ then we shd buy them and since we are not we have to satisfy ourselves with Mi 17s.

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## fjavaid

fatman17 said:


> If we were an oil rich nation or a gdp of 1 trillion $ then we shd buy them and since we are not we have to satisfy ourselves with Mi 17s.



What Happened to those 3 Z10 transferred to PA ....
any news on those ????


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## nomi007

fjavaid said:


> What Happened to those 3 Z10 transferred to PA ....
> any news on those ????


stored at dhamial


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## monitor

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan Army Mi-171 Damaged in Landing Accident
> 
> Posted on 10 May, 2015
> 
> 
> Pakistan Army Aviation Corps Mi-171 58645 seen following its landing accident at Kohat on May 2.
> 
> A PAKISTAN Army Aviation Corps Mi-171, serial number 58645, has been damaged in a landing accident at Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Base Kohat in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province. The helicopter was landing at the base on May 2 after a routine flight when its tail rotor struck a container that was being used as a security barrier and the pilot, Major Shehzad, lost control.
> 
> The helicopter’s tail boom was severed, but the Mi-171 came to rest upright on its undercarriage. The pilot and one other person on board were reported injured. A number of containers had been placed on the western side of the base to provide security against terrorist attacks. AFD-Dave Allport



recently our MI-171 too damage while landing 
* Bangladesh Air force helicopter crashes at Chittagong base, three injured *












The accident occurred at the BAF Base Zahurul Haque next to the Shah Amanat International Airport around 11am on Wednesday.An Inter Services spokesperson said that it was an MI-17 helicopter and the injured were the pilots and the two co-pilots.They are Squadron Leader ‘Shafayet’, Pilot Officer ‘Fuad’ and Sergeant ‘Ferdous’.

Shafayet and Ferdous have been sent to the Dhaka Combined Military Hospital and Fuad to the Navy Hospital in Chittagong.A distress call was sent from the helicopter to our control room around 10:35 citing mechanical failure. It then crashed near our runway around 11:06am,” the airport’s Manager Nur E Alam said.

Taking off and landing were suspended at the airport from 10:35am to 11:00am.Air Force officials, who were at the scene, said they used this type of chopper for training, rescue and transportation.
An official said a problem was detected in the helicopter right after it took off around 10:30am. The pilot sent a message to the control tower for emergency landing but he could not control it.

A fire broke out as soon as the chopper crashed.Ehsan crawled to safety while the others were rescued by crew present at the airport.


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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007

prisoners of war 
place chitral

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> prisoners of war
> place chitral




Are u sure it's chitral

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## fatman17

UN duty

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## fatman17

Flood relief duty

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## fatman17

Ex Jordan Cobras at Qasim base

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## fatman17

Flying in kashmir

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## hassan1



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## fatman17

monitor said:


> recently our MI-171 too damage while landing
> * Bangladesh Air force helicopter crashes at Chittagong base, three injured *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The accident occurred at the BAF Base Zahurul Haque next to the Shah Amanat International Airport around 11am on Wednesday.An Inter Services spokesperson said that it was an MI-17 helicopter and the injured were the pilots and the two co-pilots.They are Squadron Leader ‘Shafayet’, Pilot Officer ‘Fuad’ and Sergeant ‘Ferdous’.
> 
> Shafayet and Ferdous have been sent to the Dhaka Combined Military Hospital and Fuad to the Navy Hospital in Chittagong.A distress call was sent from the helicopter to our control room around 10:35 citing mechanical failure. It then crashed near our runway around 11:06am,” the airport’s Manager Nur E Alam said.
> 
> Taking off and landing were suspended at the airport from 10:35am to 11:00am.Air Force officials, who were at the scene, said they used this type of chopper for training, rescue and transportation.
> An official said a problem was detected in the helicopter right after it took off around 10:30am. The pilot sent a message to the control tower for emergency landing but he could not control it.
> 
> A fire broke out as soon as the chopper crashed.Ehsan crawled to safety while the others were rescued by crew present at the airport.



That's a write off

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## hassan1



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## nomi007

*The cockpit of a AH-1Z Viper.*

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## hassan1



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## Reddawn

I thought all Hueys were operated by the ministry of interior? Do the PAA operate this type as well?


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## fatman17

Reddawn said:


> I thought all Hueys were operated by the ministry of interior? Do the PAA operate this type as well?



It's MoI don't go by what the media writes or says

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## fatman17

Inside Mi 17 rebuild hanger

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## Windjammer

*Interesting to note that PAA uses it's MI-17s for Electronic warfare. Not to mention what they can pick up.*

@Horus @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @Xeric @Oscar

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## Sulman Badshah

Windjammer said:


> *Interesting to note that PAA uses it's MI-17s for Electronic warfare. Not to mention what they can pick up.*
> 
> @Horus @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @Xeric @Oscar


Last two lines are Epic

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## Jango

This Mi-17 was spotted flying in Pindi about a year back I guess...

@The Deterrent ...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Windjammer said:


> *Interesting to note that PAA uses it's MI-17s for Electronic warfare. Not to mention what they can pick up.*
> 
> @Horus @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @Xeric @Oscar


Lol at Col Malhotra's wife.. Poor bastard.

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## Windjammer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Lol at Col Malhotra's wife.. Poor bastard.


Major Nagra must be of opinion, why should Navy guys have all the fun.

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## DIRECT ACTION

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Lol at Col Malhotra's wife.. Poor bastard.





Windjammer said:


> Major Nagra must be of opinion, why should Navy guys have all the fun.



you know, you military personals are very weak in creating fake stores, a person with a common sense of a 5th standard student knows that the frequency used by ordinary mobile phones and military channels are very different. your mil-17 went to the border area to intercept military radio communication, so how the hell he heard the chatting b/w a wife of an officer with an officer?? do you think that the military personals use their official radio communications to chat with one another through military frequency??

_"once we were challenged by our own fighter as we turned off navigational lights"" _
what kind of stupid story is this?? why would they turned off the light?? that is a signal intelligence chopper. they don't even had to fly like they said. they are flying within their airspace, they are not even crossing the border. indian army and airforce have one of the most advanced radas and air defense network in the western border, they don't shoot with an ack ack gun after seeing some helicopter with lights, there are radars to detect choppers, then there is sam system in place, only when the chopper is came too close to the army base, the ack ack gun is used. but this is 21 century, we have good alternatives to shot down the incoming choppers, turning on and off of the navigational lights really doesn't matter.

the story is actually coped from Mark Owen book named No Easy Day, in that book he says that _"when the stealth chopper approach the bin laden compound, the pilots turned off all the lights in the helicopter, there was no moon light either, seals have to relay completely on their new kind of NVGs"_

this is the problem when someone get a hands on signal intelligence aircraft for the fist time, they start consider themselves as Hollywood stars, and start imagine this kind of stores.

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> *Interesting to note that PAA uses it's MI-17s for Electronic warfare. Not to mention what they can pick up.*
> 
> @Horus @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @Xeric @Oscar



Janab, why the heck are we ruining some poor Indian Colonel's marriage.



DIRECT ACTION said:


> you know, you military personals are very weak in creating fake stores, a person with a common sense of a 5th standard student knows that the frequency used by ordinary mobile phones and military channels are very different. your mil-17 went to the border area to intercept military radio communication, so how the hell he heard the chatting b/w a wife of an officer with an officer?? do you think that the military personals use their official radio communications to chat with one another through military frequency??
> 
> _"once we were challenged by our own fighter as we turned off navigational lights"" _
> what kind of stupid story is this?? why would they turned off the light?? that is a signal intelligence chopper. they don't even had to fly like they said. they are flying within their airspace, they are not even crossing the border. indian army and airforce have one of the most advanced radas and air defense network in the western border, they don't shoot with an ack ack gun after seeing some helicopter with lights, there are radars to detect choppers, then there is sam system in place, only when the chopper is came too close to the army base, the ack ack gun is used. but this is 21 century, we have good alternatives to shot down the incoming choppers, turning on and off of the navigational lights really doesn't matter.
> 
> the story is actually coped from Mark Owen book named No Easy Day, in that book he says that _"when the stealth chopper approach the bin laden compound, the pilots turned off all the lights in the helicopter, there was no moon light either, seals have to relay completely on their new kind of NVGs"_
> 
> this is the problem when someone get a hands on signal intelligence aircraft for the fist time, they start consider themselves as Hollywood stars, and start imagine this kind of stores.



Clearly as someone filled with pointless cynicism and a need to deride Pakistan no matter how idiotic you sound.. you are successful. 

First, the idea of Signals intelligence is to pick up ANY and ALL electronic emissions coming which includes late night phone sex over cellular networks if that is happening in the area. 

The aircraft is there to gather signals intelligence flying close to the border.... a smart person would suggest that it is best to ensure that the aircraft has all lights off to avoid being picked up visually at least by the very ground fire you seem to ridicule. Regardless of the "sophistication" you think India has, a lot of the equipment and force tactics are still in transformation which includes AAA near the border. 

Moreover, in your idiotic attempt to try and deride the chopper you took a completely unrelated story which would make even the crap that is rumoured to be found in Mallu Masala movies sound like serious attempts at original thought. 

Now that we have established that you have a piss poor need to troll here, I will ensure that every post you make is looked at to see if you make any further attempts.. and at the slightest inkling of idiotic trolling will throw you out of this place so you can go and whine about it on Youtube. 


Banned from thread.

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## Thorough Pro

please take a break and stand up for some time, sitting on hurt butt will cause more butt hurt.




DIRECT ACTION said:


> you know, you military personals are very weak in creating fake stores, a person with a common sense of a 5th standard student knows that the frequency used by ordinary mobile phones and military channels are very different. your mil-17 went to the border area to intercept military radio communication, so how the hell he heard the chatting b/w a wife of an officer with an officer?? do you think that the military personals use their official radio communications to chat with one another through military frequency??
> 
> _"once we were challenged by our own fighter as we turned off navigational lights"" _
> what kind of stupid story is this?? why would they turned off the light?? that is a signal intelligence chopper. they don't even had to fly like they said. they are flying within their airspace, they are not even crossing the border. indian army and airforce have one of the most advanced radas and air defense network in the western border, they don't shoot with an ack ack gun after seeing some helicopter with lights, there are radars to detect choppers, then there is sam system in place, only when the chopper is came too close to the army base, the ack ack gun is used. but this is 21 century, we have good alternatives to shot down the incoming choppers, turning on and off of the navigational lights really doesn't matter.
> 
> the story is actually coped from Mark Owen book named No Easy Day, in that book he says that _"when the stealth chopper approach the bin laden compound, the pilots turned off all the lights in the helicopter, there was no moon light either, seals have to relay completely on their new kind of NVGs"_
> 
> this is the problem when someone get a hands on signal intelligence aircraft for the fist time, they start consider themselves as Hollywood stars, and start imagine this kind of stores.

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## fatman17

What the F is going on here

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## Donatello

Stupid Indians, getting their skinny butt stuck in places as usual.

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## The Deterrent

Windjammer said:


> *Interesting to note that PAA uses it's MI-17s for Electronic warfare. Not to mention what they can pick up.*
> 
> @Horus @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @Xeric @Oscar





Jango said:


> This Mi-17 was spotted flying in Pindi about a year back I guess...
> 
> @The Deterrent ...

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## Inception-06

The Deterrent said:


> View attachment 225929
> 
> View attachment 225930

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## fatman17

Cobras taken a lot of hits. Body work

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> Cobras taken a lot of hits. Body work


they need rest in peace long ago


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## fatman17

Rare pic of PIA Mi8

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## fatman17

Is this a Jet ranger

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## fatman17

This is a Bell 412EP

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> Is this a Jet ranger


look like 207 not 206 boss


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> Rare pic of PIA Mi8



Unless you are using the Russian terminologies for their Mil helis, this is an Mi-17,not Mi-8.

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## nomi007

dhamial at night

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## ACE OF THE AIR

nomi007 said:


> dhamial at night


It does not have any PAPI's ... there are beginning and end of runway lights. Approach light are also seen.


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## fatman17

Jango said:


> Unless you are using the Russian terminologies for their Mil helis, this is an Mi-17,not Mi-8.



Actually Mi8 and 17 structure have hardly any differences. When PIA had this service in the 70s it was Mi8

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> Actually Mi8 and 17 structure have hardly any differences. When PIA had this service in the 70s it was Mi8



The biggest 2 differences are:

1- The Mi-8 has tail rotor on right side as viewed from a pilot's perspective, Mi-17 has it on the left.

2- The bulbous structure in front of the intakes, characterisitc of the Mi-17 engines.

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## nomi007

some useful info about 
*AH-1Z*
www.military.com:80/video/aircraft/helicopters/marines-get-a-new-cobra-ah-1z/940164266001/

New TopOwl HMSD System for Huey | Military.com


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## Donatello

Jango said:


> The biggest 2 differences are:
> 
> 1- The Mi-8 has tail rotor on right side as viewed from a pilot's perspective, Mi-17 has it on the left.
> 
> 2- The bulbous structure in front of the intakes, characterisitc of the Mi-17 engines.



Correcto...

Also, the bulbous structure was primarily for the engine air intake covers.....to prevent suction of foreign debris when taking off from rugged/dusty terrain (Afghanistan era). Mi17 was a much improved chopper over the Mi8 in terms of engine performance (more power) and reliability,and minor difference in cargo loading/unloading mechanism.



fatman17 said:


> Actually Mi8 and 17 structure have hardly any differences. When PIA had this service in the 70s it was Mi8



Boss, AH1Z approved?

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## Jango

Donatello said:


> Correcto...
> 
> Also, the bulbous structure was primarily for the engine air intake covers.....to prevent suction of foreign debris when taking off from rugged/dusty terrain (Afghanistan era). Mi17 was a much improved chopper over the Mi8 in terms of engine performance (more power) and reliability,and minor difference in cargo loading/unloading mechanism.



Yup...another feature most commonly being seen these days is the add-on air intake filter (the crate type structure in front of the intakes).

As you have said, most of the improvements were in the engine and transmission for the Mi-17, but the two major visual difference off the top of my head were stated above.

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Correcto...
> 
> Also, the bulbous structure was primarily for the engine air intake covers.....to prevent suction of foreign debris when taking off from rugged/dusty terrain (Afghanistan era). Mi17 was a much improved chopper over the Mi8 in terms of engine performance (more power) and reliability,and minor difference in cargo loading/unloading mechanism.
> 
> 
> 
> Boss, AH1Z approved?



IMHO yes it is. There was no congressional hurdles.

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## fatman17

However we won't see them until 2017 unless the USMC allows from their stocks

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## Windjammer



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## mingle

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 228253


Its LAMA heli?



fatman17 said:


> However we won't see them until 2017 unless the USMC allows from their stocks


Could be Allen warns said that an American company opeing a engine overhaul facility in pak for cobra Helis its mean we may get more choppers down the road?


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Its LAMA heli?
> 
> 
> Could be Allen warns said that an American company opeing a engine overhaul facility in pak for cobra Helis its mean we may get more choppers down the road?



Well with the 35+ existing fleet plus at least another 15 Cobras grounded for lack of local overhaul facilities and 15 Zs coming soon demands that there is a local overhaul facility available to ensure availability of the entire Cobra fleet. Makes good sense.

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## fatman17

MoI helos at Gaddafi stadium


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## Indus Falcon

fatman17 said:


> MoI helos at Gaddafi stadium


Sir, MoI? or PA?


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## fatman17

Indus Falcon said:


> Sir, MoI? or PA?



Min of interior. Army pilots

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## fatman17

Pics from ptv world documentry on PAA

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## fatman17

More pics

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## fatman17

More pics

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## ghazi52

Great sharing..... Thanks..


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## fatman17

Any news on the Z10 or pics


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## nomi007

ah-1z with uh-1 venom

soon ah-1z with mi-35m
more powerful combination than venom

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## nomi007

*BRM1 90 Rocket*

The BRM1 is a guided version of the heavy *90mm* helicopter rockets, used to attack structures, infantry and light vehicles. In salvos, they can prove dangerous to even well protected tanks.
*future weapon of PAA*


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## Sulman Badshah

nomi007 said:


> *BRM1 90 Rocket*
> 
> The BRM1 is a guided version of the heavy *90mm* helicopter rockets, used to attack structures, infantry and light vehicles. In salvos, they can prove dangerous to even well protected tanks.
> *future weapon of PAA*


It was displayed with JF17 during Zhuhai air show


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## nomi007

Richard Harris, director international military marketing development, said that expected sale of 15 AH-1Z helicopters to Pakistan should be concluded in the coming weeks


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## Sulman Badshah

nomi007 said:


> Richard Harris, director international military marketing development, said that expected sale of 15 AH-1Z helicopters to Pakistan should be concluded in the coming weeks


 Richard Harris is Vice President, International Military Sales (Global Military Business Development) at Bell Helicopter

So he is from Bell company itself

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## fatman17

Extract from Paris AS 

Beyond Eastern Europe, Harris noted that the expected sale of 15 AH-1Z helicopters to Pakistan should be concluded in the coming weeks.

Good news all around.

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## fatman17

4 Mi35 coming soon to equip the anti narcotics. Will be flown by PAA pilots.


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## fatman17

Possibility of Agreement on the sale of Mi28 Havoc armed helos on the cards. Russia has offered 4 examples as a sweetner to close the deal.

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## Ishant Sahu

Thanks for the information . really mean a lot

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Possibility of Agreement on the sale of Mi28 Havoc armed helos on the cards. Russia has offered 4 examples as a sweetner to close the deal.


That a good thing.Sir Fatman I think engine is same like Mi 35 but we should have them in good number .


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## fatman17

Russia Selling Mi-35M Attack Helicopters To Pakistan

Posted By: Clayton Browne
Posted date: June 18, 2015

According to Russian News Agency TASS, Russia’s state arms exporter Rosoboronexport has agreed to sell advanced Mil Mi-35M (Hind E) combathelicopters to Pakistan.

Although the initial contract apparently just calls for the delivery of four attack helicopters, political and military analysts say the fact that Russia is selling its most advanced combat choppers to Pakistan is telling and another sign that Putin intends to to flex Russian military muscles all across the globe.


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## fatman17

Statement from knowledgeable Russian source

TASS quotes a knowledgeable Russian military source as saying "Following the results of the talks held earlier on helicopters, which Pakistan would like to get from Russia, a draft contract on the delivery of four Mi-35M gunships has been sent to the Pakistani side. Pakistan is now studying the document."

The source continued to note "A substantial portion of technical and financial issues has been coordinated with [our] Pakistan_ partners in the preparation of the helicopter deal. We do not see any insurmountable impediments to the conclusion of this contract. It may be signed already this year."_


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## fatman17

Relations between Pakistan and Russia improving

Political analysts also highlight that Pakistan and Russia had signed a defense cooperation agreement strengthen military-to-military relations in back in November of 2014. That deal was followed up by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ that set up the legal framework for the sale of military equipment to Pakistan.

It has also become clear over the last few months that Pakistan interested in other Russian military hardwarebesides the Hind E.

Pakistan Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif spent about 15 hours at an arms expo in Moscow on Tuesday. The expo was displaying Russia’s newest cutting edge weapons and military equipment. Sharif not only viewed the weapon systems on display, but also observed a number of live demonstrations.

“The army chief spent whole of June 16 witnessing dynamic defence expo. Highly impressive display of all types of arms, aircraft, and helis,” military spokesman Maj Gen Asim Bajwa tweeted after the visit.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Relations between Pakistan and Russia improving
> 
> Political analysts also highlight that Pakistan and Russia had signed a defense cooperation agreement strengthen military-to-military relations in back in November of 2014. That deal was followed up by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ that set up the legal framework for the sale of military equipment to Pakistan.
> 
> It has also become clear over the last few months that Pakistan interested in other Russian military hardwarebesides the Hind E.
> 
> Pakistan Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif spent about 15 hours at an arms expo in Moscow on Tuesday. The expo was displaying Russia’s newest cutting edge weapons and military equipment. Sharif not only viewed the weapon systems on display, but also observed a number of live demonstrations.
> 
> “The army chief spent whole of June 16 witnessing dynamic defence expo. Highly impressive display of all types of arms, aircraft, and helis,” military spokesman Maj Gen Asim Bajwa tweeted after the visit.


Fatman any chance for Su family jet may be for navy ?if russia offers a term?which I am sure they will ?


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## Super Falcon

If they will than su 35 naval. version give pn air superiority on sea 12 to 20 will be enough and paf has to focus on other air to air battles

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## mingle

Super Falcon said:


> If they will than su 35 naval. version give pn air superiority on sea 12 to 20 will be enough and paf has to focus on other air to air battles


Bang right on target i hope we will see them in future .Eygpt bought 46 mig 35 s atleast two Sqd will be awesome for PN .

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Fatman any chance for Su family jet may be for navy ?if russia offers a term?which I am sure they will ?



Russia will offer equipment which is useful for counterterrorism purpose hence the helos.


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## Super Falcon

Mig 35 or SU 35 both are awsome machine with these we can have complete air superiority in air our navy cant afford aircraft carrier but can but its own air fighter jets in war time india will send its entire navy to khi giving current pn inventory india will get easily in shores of khi


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## ACE OF THE AIR

If Pakistan would ever go for SU-35 then it would be the Chinese J-11D or J-16.

The chances of getting Russian Mig 35 are more likely...


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## CHI RULES

Super Falcon said:


> Mig 35 or SU 35 both are awesome machine with these we can have complete air superiority in air our navy cant afford aircraft carrier but can but its own air fighter jets in war time india will send its entire navy to khi giving current pn inventory india will get easily in shores of khi


It is nice to have MI35s but shall be not a rational decission to get SU35 or Mig 35, as these platforms will be highly capital intensive require more overhaul/ other issues. Further India shal get all knowledge abt their frequencies,radars, ew capabilities so may prove to be harmful for PN rather than asset. It is much better to get plat forms of equal performance like J11b or J16 in near future if engine issues are resolved.

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## fatman17

I thought this was a army aviation thread


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## Kiran Qasim

Very informative .. Thanks for sharing it


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## fatman17

Early delivery of 3 Chinese Z-10s to Pakistan an attempt to outperform Russia

Staff Reporter 2015-06-26 11:56

Recently a photograph of three Chinese-made CAIC Z-10 attack helicopters delivered to Pakistan has been circulating online, according to Sina's military news website.

This has led to comparisons between Chinese and Russian weapons systems online. In certain traditional fields, the Russian defense industry has a clear advantage, according to the website. Its Soviet legacy and its efforts in research and development put Russia at the forefront of the international weapons market, the article said. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute ranking, Russia is the second biggest weapons exporter, as it exports weapons to 56 countries. Its weapon exports to India, China and Algeria make up 60% of the country's total weapon exports.

China is a relative newcomer to the global weapons market, but it is now the third biggest defense exporter. The weapons it exports include the CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder fighter, the PLZ-45 155 mm self-propelled howitzer and the C series of anti-ship missiles. The reason for the rapid growth in its weapons exports is China's rapid economic rise, which has fueled the modernization of the armed forces, according to the website. This has allowed certain Chinese weapon systems to be able to compete with Russian weapons in the international market.

One of the clearest examples of this is Pakistan's purchase of Z-10 attack helicopters from China. China has already handed over three of the helicopters to Pakistan, according to US-based military affairs news site Strategy Page. The three helicopters have been provided to Pakistan in advance, to allow them to trial the helicopter. Pakistan will buy 17 Z-10 helicopters and before the end of the year, Pakistan will receive another two. Providing weapon systems at so early a stage in a deal is almost unheard of in the weapons trade and shows that China is keen to compete with Russia for customers. Pakistan is the first country to buy the helicopter from China.

The Pakistani media has speculated that the country also wishes to purchase Chinese Jin-class Type 094 nuclear powered ballistic missile submarines.

Pakistan has extended an olive branch to Russia after the Chinese helicopter purchase, however, as a report in IHS Jane's Defence Weekly from Oct. 26, 2014 stated that Russia and Pakistan have signed a contract to enhance cooperation on military purchases. Under the terms of the agreement, Russia will provide Pakistan with 20 Mi-35 attack helicopters. The two countries may also reach deals on the Pantsyr-S1 short to medium range surface-to-air missile and anti-aircraft artillery weapon system, the Mi-28E all weather attack helicopter and the 9K37 Buk Grizzly missile system.

Pakistan plans to use helicopters purchased from China and Russia at the same time.

Several weapons systems currently in service with the Pakistan Armed Forces were developed jointly by both China and Pakistan, including the CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder fighter, main battle tanks, F-22P Zulfiquar-class frigates, and Azmat-class fast attack crafts. Contracts for several others are set to be signed soon, including a deal for an upgrade to the F-22P, a deal for eight of the export version of China's Type 039A Yuan-class diesel-electric submarine, and another on China's Type 022 missile boat.

Russia, for its part, appears to be attempting to move in on China's traditional clientele, including Thailand, Myanmar and Pakistan. This has coincided with certain issues over weapons deals between Russia and China. One in particular concerns the Zubr-class air-cushioned landing craft (LCAC). China originally signed a deal with Ukraine for two of the landing craft, while two others were set to be built within China. After Russia annexed Crimea, however, there was some confusion as to whether the deal would go ahead and if it would be filled by Ukraine or by Russia. The issue was just resolved recently, when Russia agreed to take over the contract.

Production on the JF-17 Thunder Block 2 began at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra in September 2013 and three aircraft have already come off the production line. The first Block 2 aircraft completed its maiden flight on Feb. 9. The Pakistan Air Force plans to buy 50 of the upgraded fighters. The biggest difference between Block 1 and Block 2 fighters is that the latter is equipped with a mid-air refueling system. This has boosted the export potential of the JF-17. The avionics of the Block 2 fighters have also been improved, which allows it to work more efficiently with the KLJ-7 X band airborne fire-control radar.


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## fatman17

Mi17

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## fatman17

PAA helos of the past


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## fatman17

Hard landing


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## alimobin memon

the media has been misunderstanding I dont believe we are getting all 3 Attack choppers. the race is going on between 3 but zulu is only offered in my opinion if Pakistan is to reject mi 35. max only 2 different types will be conducted. China might win the race overall and Pak might only go for z10. doesnt seem to fit well if 3 choppers are selected sorry but that mean 3 new choppers new headache of tri maintenance facilities.


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## Irfan Baloch

fatman17 said:


> Hard landing


more like a crash


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## Shabi1

alimobin memon said:


> the media has been misunderstanding I dont believe we are getting all 3 Attack choppers. the race is going on between 3 but zulu is only offered in my opinion if Pakistan is to reject mi 35. max only 2 different types will be conducted. China might win the race overall and Pak might only go for z10. doesnt seem to fit well if 3 choppers are selected sorry but that mean 3 new choppers new headache of tri maintenance facilities.



Mi-35 induction is separate from the Cobra replacement selection. They will be inducted in small numbers for counter insurgency operations. 4 are confirmed, as per reports/rumors final number could go upto 20. Since they have systems/parts in common with the Mi-17 they will be easier to maintain. At the moment Mi-17s and Bell 412s often need a Cobra escort which strains the gunship fleet. The Mi-35 wont need escorts.

The Cobra replacement contenders are Mi-28, T-129, Z-10 & AH-1Z Viper. Mi-28, T-129 seem eliminated. AH-1Z was preferred by PA and it had put in a request for them but that was at a time when no other viable gunship was available. Z-10s seem to have a high probability for a large induction order.

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## fatman17

alimobin memon said:


> the media has been misunderstanding I dont believe we are getting all 3 Attack choppers. the race is going on between 3 but zulu is only offered in my opinion if Pakistan is to reject mi 35. max only 2 different types will be conducted. China might win the race overall and Pak might only go for z10. doesnt seem to fit well if 3 choppers are selected sorry but that mean 3 new choppers new headache of tri maintenance facilities.



The zulu deal is done with or without what we buy from Russia. In the long run the Z 10 may win over if it meets PAA requirements. At the moment the Mi 35 deal is for the ANF but for all intents and purposes the PAA will operate them once delivered. The Cobra saga is not over especially when a overhaul facility is being set up in pakistan.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> The zulu deal is done with or without what we buy from Russia. In the long run the Z 10 may win over if it meets PAA requirements. At the moment the Mi 35 deal is for the ANF but for all intents and purposes the PAA will operate them once delivered. The Cobra saga is not over especially when a overhaul facility is being set up in pakistan.


Sir fatman.
Any NEWS on how the trials of z10 went with the PAA. Input would be appreciated. If Hkhan of pakdef.info is to be believed then PAA is going for 20 MI 35, 15+ Zulus and in excess of 50 Z10. Z10 will be acquired in batches but the Zulu numbers will depend on the willingness of both our pockets and the US.
Araz


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## Jango

This really baffles me, why is the Army going for 3 different helo types at the same time in almost identical numbers...


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## fatman17

Jango said:


> This really baffles me, why is the Army going for 3 different helo types at the same time in almost identical numbers...



Have to look at all options. It's a smart move.

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Sir fatman.
> Any NEWS on how the trials of z10 went with the PAA. Input would be appreciated. If Hkhan of pakdef.info is to be believed then PAA is going for 20 MI 35, 15+ Zulus and in excess of 50 Z10. Z10 will be acquired in batches but the Zulu numbers will depend on the willingness of both our pockets and the US.
> Araz



I have no news on the Z10 evaluation. As I said the Zulu deal is done as confirmed by the manufacturer CEO at Paris AS. The Z10 number sounds outlandish. The Mi35 number sounds right as it can multi role as a transport.


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> I have no news on the Z10 evaluation. As I said the Zulu deal is done as confirmed by the manufacturer CEO at Paris AS. The Z10 number sounds outlandish. The Mi35 number sounds right as it can multi role as a transport.


The Z10 numbers might be procured in batches. However for once we have doors open to lead us down the avenue where we previously had very little options. This is something really exciting .
Araz


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## fatman17

araz said:


> The Z10 numbers might be procured in batches. However for once we have doors open to lead us down the avenue where we previously had very little options. This is something really exciting .
> Araz



Indeed but remember if jeb bush is the next president we can revive the peace gate plan in full. 70 F16s.

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## krash

Irfan Baloch said:


> more like a crash





fatman17 said:


> Hard landing



Taken from a simulator/game.


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## nomi007

A Pakistani army helicopter takes part in a rescue operation after train compartments fell into a canal following the partial collapse of a bridge in Wazirabad in the Punjab province.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Indeed but remember if jeb bush is the next president we can revive the peace gate plan in full. 70 F16s.


Fatman sb I don't think MIS Clinton will object at all things r not rosey as use to be In states pak can place order now for F 16s .did u notice not a single person object about cobra heli deal except Haqqani .he wrote a paid article .

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## fatman17

Mi17 in green livery

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## fatman17

5th ISI MC12W aircraft inducted by Pakistan Army - source Alan Warnes

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> 5th ISI MC12W aircraft inducted by Pakistan Army - source Alan Warnes



That's ISR


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## fatman17

Russia, Pakistan Negotiating on Military Mi-35 Helicopters Deal

© Sputnik/ Kirill Kallinikov

MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE

06.07.2015

Russia and Pakistan might sign an agreement on selling the combat Mi-35 helicopters to Islamabad.

© SPUTNIK/ SERGEY PIVOVAROV

Russia Begins Export of Ka-52 Alligator Attack Helicopters

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia is holding the talks with Pakistan on the sale of the combat Mi-35 helicopters to Islamabad, Russian presidential aide Yuri Ushakov told reporters Monday.

"Currently, negotiations are underway to supply Islamabad with a consignment of Mi-35 military transport helicopters, which will be used for the counter-terrorism operations in the north-west of the country," Ushakov said.

In March 2015, Pakistani President Mamnoon Hussain announced the Islamabad's attention to expand military-technical cooperation with Russia and purchase Russian Mi-35 helicopter s. 

During the Pakistani delegation’s visit to the International Military-Technical Forum Army-2015 held in Russia in June, plans to finalize an agreement on the purchase of Russian military equipment, including helicopters, were disclosed.

In November 2014, Russia and Pakistan signed a deal on cooperation between the countries' defense ministries, following on good military ties between the two countries dated back to the 1960s, when Pakistan imported defense equipment from the Soviet Union.


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## nomi007



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## fatman17

araz said:


> The Z10 numbers might be procured in batches. However for once we have doors open to lead us down the avenue where we previously had very little options. This is something really exciting .
> Araz



The very recent statement by the incoming US CJSC Dunford supports an endearing relationship with Pakistan and talked of strong mil to mil relations is certainly a good sign for the future.


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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> The very recent statement by the incoming US CJSC Dunford supports an endearing relationship with Pakistan and talked of strong mil to mil relations is certainly a good sign for the future.


It's all about $$$$ sir if we have U won't beleive the way american court pak .

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## fatman17

Mi17 in action


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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> Mi17 in action



First Mi-17 is from Afghanistan Forces !


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## Stealth

My Shots - Click and see HD 1920X1080 

@fatman17 @WebMaster @Horus @Abu Zolfiqar @Side-Winder @Windjammer @graphican @Irfan Baloch

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## fatman17

Very nice


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## nomi007



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## Super Falcon

D


fatman17 said:


> Indeed but remember if jeb bush is the next president we can revive the peace gate plan in full. 70 F16s.


Dear time has came we should come out of love affair of F 16
Yes it is best Multirole fighter jet of all time But better fighter jets are available in market relying on one jet is real stupidity let pak airforce to be enter 21 century our airforce is one dimensional Multirole and single engine we should get out of same approach our enemy airfirce with Su 30 pakfa mig 29k and rafale all are twin engine jet our jets cant reach them i hope we should consider next gen jets not old gen


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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> D
> 
> Dear time has came we should come out of love affair of F 16
> Yes it is best Multirole fighter jet of all time But better fighter jets are available in market relying on one jet is real stupidity let pak airforce to be enter 21 century our airforce is one dimensional Multirole and single engine we should get out of same approach our enemy airfirce with Su 30 pakfa mig 29k and rafale all are twin engine jet our jets cant reach them i hope we should consider next gen jets not old gen



The air force wallas will disagree with your opinion


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## Super Falcon

fatman17 said:


> The air force wallas will disagree with your opinion


Yes but you remember pathetic single minded thinking of pak navy in 1971 war took banglash from us at that time if we had destroyers and more surface fleet and good subs things might have been little different

As a force dont rely on single type of jet or any weapon once enemy got weakness of ur weapon ur entire force at mercy of enemy if u have 3. Diferent type of weapons jets etc it take time for enemy during war to take some weakness time to airforce wala should change the way accept the reality and single engine jets at sea no potent thteat if India attacks us from sea our old mirages F 16 and new jf 17 can ibtercept but their opponent jets like mig 29k rafale Su 30 pak fa can over run anx destroy thdm with ease


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## araz

Super Falcon said:


> Yes but you remember pathetic single minded thinking of pak navy in 1971 war took banglash from us at that time if we had destroyers and more surface fleet and good subs things might have been little different
> 
> As a force dont rely on single type of jet or any weapon once enemy got weakness of ur weapon ur entire force at mercy of enemy if u have 3. Diferent type of weapons jets etc it take time for enemy during war to take some weakness time to airforce wala should change the way accept the reality and single engine jets at sea no potent thteat if India attacks us from sea our old mirages F 16 and new jf 17 can ibtercept but their opponent jets like mig 29k rafale Su 30 pak fa can over run anx destroy thdm with ease



You need to revisit history as your assumptions are incorrect. the problem in Bangladesh could not have been helped by any arm of our forces. It was a political one complicated by the sheer greed of Bhutto and the helplessness of Mujeeb (he was being overruled by the Indian plants in his setup and the Mukti Bahini was ruling the roost). The problem needed a political solution on a give and take basis which never materialized due to various reasons.
Araz

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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> First Mi-17 is from Afghanistan Forces !



My bad. Eyes give up as one gets older. PDF mobile dosnt help either.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Super Falcon said:


> Yes but you remember pathetic single minded thinking of pak navy in 1971 war took banglash from us at that time if we had destroyers and more surface fleet and good subs things might have been little different
> 
> As a force dont rely on single type of jet or any weapon once enemy got weakness of ur weapon ur entire force at mercy of enemy if u have 3. Diferent type of weapons jets etc it take time for enemy during war to take some weakness time to airforce wala should change the way accept the reality and single engine jets at sea no potent thteat if India attacks us from sea our old mirages F 16 and new jf 17 can ibtercept but their opponent jets like mig 29k rafale Su 30 pak fa can over run anx destroy thdm with ease



So according to you "pathetic single minded thinking of PN" was the cause of break up of Pakistan.

This is new one. Bravo.


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## Super Falcon

Rashid Mahmood said:


> So according to you "pathetic single minded thinking of PN" was the cause of break up of Pakistan.
> 
> This is new one. Bravo.


Im not saying completely or all of it anway it was not part of loosing bangladesh

Im saying if we has potent navy with good weapons india thought twice before entering in bangladesh



araz said:


> You need to revisit history as your assumptions are incorrect. the problem in Bangladesh could not have been helped by any arm of our forces. It was a political one complicated by the sheer greed of Bhutto and the helplessness of Mujeeb (he was being overruled by the Indian plants in his setup and the Mukti Bahini was ruling the roost). The problem needed a political solution on a give and take basis which never materialized due to various reasons.
> Araz




I never said that i said if we had good weapons ships subs etc india would have thought twice before interfearing in bangladesh see with nukes india not dare to pass mili inch of pak land so u also dont go on assumption


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## Bratva

PA MI-17 is being upgraded with Armour plating around cockpit as well as extra fuel tanks for long haul missions Waj S Khan giving presentation of upgraded Mi-17

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## DESERT FIGHTER

nomi007 said:


>



So what does Turkish military have to do with PAA?


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## FunkyGen

araz said:


> You need to revisit history as your assumptions are incorrect. the problem in Bangladesh could not have been helped by any arm of our forces. It was a political one complicated by the sheer greed of Bhutto and the helplessness of Mujeeb (he was being overruled by the Indian plants in his setup and the Mukti Bahini was ruling the roost). The problem needed a political solution on a give and take basis which never materialized due to various reasons.
> Araz


And yahya was never the problem i guess?


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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> My bad. Eyes give up as one gets older. PDF mobile dosnt help either.



Lol 

you are most welcome


----------



## Jango

Bratva said:


> PA MI-17 is being upgraded with Armour plating around cockpit as well as extra fuel tanks for long haul missions Waj S Khan giving presentation of upgraded Mi-17



That walk around was actually cringe worthy!!!

This armor plating and extra fuel tanks addon is waaaay old!


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## nomi007

*The AH-1Z Viper*

The Bell AH-1Z Viper is a modern version of the first ever attack helicopter, the AH-1 Cobra. It is also called Zulu Cobra in reference to its variant letter. Since its introduction in the mid 1960s the original Cobra has been constantly improved and upgraded. The latest AH-1Z Viper is a result of H-1 helicopter upgrade program for the US Marine Corps. It was launched by the US Government in 1996 and has been won the Bell helicopter company. It is worth noting that the Viper was developed alongside the UH-1Y Venom under the same program.
The AH-1Z Viper is a direct derivative of the AH-1W Super Cobra. It is one of the most powerful, capable and advanced helicopter, flying today. The AH-1Z made its first flight back in 2000. It was introduced to the US Marine Corps in 2010. Full scale production commenced in 2012. Marines plan to receive a total of 189 Vipers until 2019. These include 131 AH-1W upgraded into AH-1Z and 58 newly built AH-1Z helicopters.
Upgrades included implementation of state-of-the-art weapons and digital technology to respond to modern demands for contemporary warfare. The Viper features outstanding flying and combat capabilities.
The AH-1Z has essential changes in propulsion. It is powered by two General Electric T700-GE-401C turbo shaft engines and has uprated transmission. One of the main external difference from the AH-1W is a composite 4-bladed main rotor, instead of the previous 2-bladed rotor. It is worth noting that a 2-bladed rotor was distinctive feature of all Bell helicopter models. Due to these changes flying characteristics improved a lot.
Despite all improvements and upgrades appearance of the AH-1Z remains the same. Pilot is seated at the rear and co-pilot/gunner at the front. Layout of two integrated digital cockpits is identical and all systems are duplicated.
This helicopter uses off-the-shelf electronic systems. It can operate in day, night, or adverse weather conditions. It has night vision twinned with infrared and new target search and acquisition software. It permits Viper to find and engage targets at long range. It can be fitted with Longbow fire control radar, mounted on wingtip station. Also there is automatic flight control station.
Armament of the Viper is very flexible. It is enhanced by helmet-mounted sight and display system. The AH-1Z carries about 2 t of various weapons on stub-wings. Typically it carries AGM-114A/B/C Hellfire anti-tank missiles (up to 16) and pods with 70-mm unguided rockets. The Viper can be also fitted with AGM-114F Hellfire anti-ship missiles, free-fall bombs, including the Mk.77 incendiary bombs. It can also carry two fire-and-forget AIM-9 Sidewinder supersonic air-to-air missiles with infrared target detection. These a mounted on wing tip stations. Also there is a 20-mm three-barrel cannon.
A number of improvements were made to survivability and crash worthiness of the helicopter. It is fitted with infrared suppression system which covers engine exhausts, laser and radar warning systems, and radar jammer. It also has smart countermeasures dispenser with missile warning device.
Latest airframe technologies were implemented, such as crash worthy seats, energy absorbing landing gear, self-sealing fuel tanks and fuel systems and fuel vapor inerting systems.
Fuselage of the helicopter and external components were coated to avoid corrosion during prolonged service at sea. These helicopters typically operate from amphibious assault ships
Capable. Flexible. Multi-mission. The ultimate in attack helicopters. The powerful AH-1Z delivers state of the art dynamics, weapons and avionics to incorporate the latest in survivability. With anti-armor capability, it engages and defeats the broadest array of threats at standoff ranges that defy imagination.Standard configuration utilizes the T700-GE-401 engine.

General characteristics

Crew: 2: pilot, co-pilot/gunner (CPG)
Capacity: 6,661 lb (3,021 kg)
Length: 58 ft 3 in (17.8 m)
Rotor diameter: 48 ft (14.6 m)
Height: 14 ft 4 in (4.37 m)
Disc area: 1,808 ft² (168.0 m²)
Empty weight: 12,300 lb (5,580 kg)
Useful load: 5,764 lb (2,620 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 18,500 lb (8,390 kg)
Powerplant: 2 × General Electric T700-GE-401C turboshaft, 1,800 shp (1,340 kW) each
Rotor systems: 4 blades on main rotor, 4 blades on tail rotor

Performance

Speed: 411 km/h
Cruise speed: 296 km/h
Range: 685 km
Combat radius:144 mi, 231 km

Payload

Service ceiling: 20,000+ ft (6,000+ m)
Rate of climb: 2,790 ft/min (14.2 m/s)

Weapons Capability

• AGM-114A, B, and C Hellfire and anti-tank missiles up to 16 total
• AGM-114F Hellfire anti-ship missiles – up to 16 total
• 70mm Rockets, 19 or 7 shot pods – up to 76 total
• AIM-9 Sidewinder (A superior supersonic air-to-air missile with infrared target detection for fire and forget capability.)
• LUU-2A/B nighttime illumination flare
• Mk 77 fire bombs
• 77 and 100 gallon external auxiliary fuel tanks
• 20 mm cannon (With a higher muzzle velocity and flatter trajectory for better accuracy, it is capable of handling M50-series rounds designed specifically for air-to-air combat)
• MK 76 practice bombs
• BDU-33D/B practice bombs
• MK 106 practice bombs

Survivability & Crash worthiness

* Like no other attack helicopter in the world, the AH-1Z survives combat with an advanced countermeasure suite, which includes:*

• AVR-2A Laser Warning Receiver
• APR-39A(v) 2 Radar Warning Receiver
• ALE-47 “Smart” Countermeasures Dispenser and
• AAR-47 Missile Warning Device.
...and the latest airframe technologies, such as:
• Energy attenuating crashworthy seats
• Energy-absorbing landing gear
• Self sealing fuel tanks and fuel systems
• Fuel vapor inerting systems
• Mass retention designs to ensure major components stay where they should in the event of a crash, and many other advanced features.

Modern Technology

The AH-1Z is a design for the 21st century. Produced to meet the stringent requirements of the USMC today – its aircraft design brings together proven AH-1W airframe reliability, a new composite four bladed rotor system and powerful T700-GE-401engines. With virtually identical front and rear cockpits, fully integrated weapons, avionics and communications systems the AH-1Z flies with the most advanced aircraft *survivability equipment* in the world. The AH-1Z is truly state-of-the-art.

Best Targeting System

Target identification is critical in the complex post-cold war and urban conflict environments. The AH-1Z *Target Sight System (TSS)* incorporates a third-generation FLIR and currently provides the longest range, lowest jitter and highest weapons' accuracy possible of any helicopter sight in the world. In addition, the completely passive and automatic system scans the battlefield without emitting trackable radar, positively identifying and tracking multiple targets at ranges beyond the maximum range of its weapons system.

* Helmet Mounted Sight and Display System*

The "Top Owl" Helmet Mounted Sight and Display (HMS/D) system supports improved communication and reduced cockpit workload. Manufactured by THALES Avionics, the Top Owl HMS/D is the most technically advanced helmet available. Upgradeable "in-service" and as additional requirements develop, it combines both avionics function with the aircrew life support and protection into a single unit.
Maintenance
Designed for lower maintenance, with the helicopter mechanic in mind, the AH-1Z is one of the most reliable aircraft made. Maintenance features of the AH-1Z include:

* • Fault detection sensors that facilitate “on-condition” *

Maintenance

• Interactive Electronic Technical Manuals
• Better accessibility
• Elimination of certain maintenance tasks
• Less maintenance man hours per flight hour
• Less spares storage requirement
Modern Cockpit
Identical front and rear cockpits provide the true ability to fly and fight from either cockpit, so there's no need to have separate training programs for front or back seaters.

The *Hands on Collective and Stick (HOCAS)* side-stick architecture, allows pilot function without removing hands from the collective flight controls. Color displays are large, multifunctional and combined with the moving-map technology. Helmet mounted displays provide all the information required to engage the enemy more quickly and accurately.
H1 Program Commonality
Shared dynamics and nearly identical cockpits vastly reduces the logistical tail, procurement and training costs required to support a large fleet of mixed type aircraft. The AH-1Z and UH-1Y have 84% commonality with identical components.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

CHINA DELIVERS !!!! On TIME


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## nomi007



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## Imran Khan

no news abut z-10 flights over pakistan ?


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## Blue Marlin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> CHINA DELIVERS !!!! On TIME


shouldn't you be pixelating the face to protect their identity?


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## Cool_Soldier

Any info @ deliveries of 2nd n 3rd Z10.....?


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## Blue Marlin

Imran Khan said:


> no news abut z-10 flights over pakistan ?


i know there are ordering 20, 3 are already their. those 3 are for testing and evaluation. Pakistan is sort of a proving ground for Chinese equipment. only just in December the mbt-3000 was in Pakistan(and apparently rejected). i would think that they are doing more testing and providing more suggestions for improvements. at one time Pakistan was desperately in need for helicopter gunships. now you have 4 countries trying to sell them to you.

take all of them. 15 vipers are not enough and are for high altitude use. so that would be used primary in the north of fata. the mil 35 are just powerful helicopters you already have mil 24's. i think there are based in balochistan (not sure if true). the z10 is more universal as it replaces the supercobra. 

the t129 was never going to happen as the US refused to export the engines to Pakistan.(sort of a deal killer)



Cool_Soldier said:


> Any info @ deliveries of 2nd n 3rd Z10.....?


there are already here you have 3 in total, 17 pending


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## Cool_Soldier

Three z10 were given as gift. First was delivered before 23rd March while remaining two were expected to be delivered by he end of this year.


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## Blue Marlin

Cool_Soldier said:


> Three z10 were given as gift. First was delivered before 23rd March while remaining two were expected to be delivered by he end of this year.


no, look that the picture i just posted

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## Cool_Soldier

blue marlin said:


> View attachment 240534
> View attachment 240535
> View attachment 240536
> 
> 
> 
> no, look that the picture i just posted
> 
> View attachment 240541
> View attachment 240542
> View attachment 240543
> View attachment 240544
> View attachment 240544
> View attachment 240545



Hmmm....Thanks

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

blue marlin said:


> View attachment 240534
> View attachment 240535
> View attachment 240536
> 
> 
> 
> no, look that the picture i just posted
> 
> View attachment 240541
> View attachment 240542
> View attachment 240543
> View attachment 240544
> View attachment 240544
> View attachment 240545



can the copter in ur first pic be upgraded to carry out combat operations ?


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## mingle

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> can the copter in ur first pic be upgraded to carry out combat operations ?


Those r very old Hinds from Afghan era i guess its a old pic those r in junk yard now .


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

mingle said:


> Those r very old Hinds from Afghan era i guess its a old pic those r in junk yard now .


but their airframe looks not bad


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## Blue Marlin

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> but their airframe looks not bad


i would assume they are simply stored away at the end of an military base somewhere. they may be able to cannibalise some parts for the mil-35 you are getting . obviously the transferable parts.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

blue marlin said:


> shouldn't you be the face to protect their identity?



Why ?


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## fatman17

Chitral flood relief ops begin


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## Sulman Badshah

Cool_Soldier said:


> Any info @ deliveries of 2nd n 3rd Z10.....?





Cool_Soldier said:


> Three z10 were given as gift. First was delivered before 23rd March while remaining two were expected to be delivered by he end of this year.



All three Z10 have been delivered ... and all of them were delivered at the same time

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## fatman17

Bell EP412 low over the mountains

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## mingle

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> but their airframe looks not bad


It's an old pic


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## fatman17

Z8B Super Frelon another transport option for the army. A western power plant would be a additional benefit.

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## Quwa

Pak Army, Navy and AF should consider standardizing on identical platforms. On the utility helicopter front it ought to be a single type such that the whole force saves on maintenance and operating costs. Also, the three service arms (plus some civilian and LEAs) can produce a large requirement together, 100-150 aircraft.

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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> Pak Army, Navy and AF should consider standardizing on identical platforms. On the utility helicopter front it ought to be a single type such that the whole force saves on maintenance and operating costs. Also, the three service arms (plus some civilian and LEAs) can produce a large requirement together, 100-150 aircraft.



Makes economic sense but certain requirements may be different for each arm. 
Common platforms so far are the Mi 17s for the army and airforce. 
Alouette IIIs for all 3 arms except the army which is replacing them. NDMA has 10 of these Swiss donated Alouette IIIs.
The Z9ec is a very good platform to be had by all 3 arms and is available in different configurations.

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## fatman17

Army’s work horse.

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## nomi007

@fatman17 
is pakistan is using *Hydra 70*
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_70

*


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> @fatman17
> is pakistan is using *Hydra 70*
> *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_70
> 
> *



I've asked the same question


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## fatman17

Helo seen at Isbd. SPD


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## fatman17

The latest image (July 2015) suggested an improved Z-10 is under development and a prototype has flown. It appears to feature an improved targeting system and a new 23mm gun.

- Last Updated 7/31/15

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> The latest image (July 2015) suggested an improved Z-10 is under development and a prototype has flown. It appears to feature an improved targeting system and a new 23mm gun.
> 
> - Last Updated 7/31/15



PAA already giving there feedback? 

Not likely off course, they could not have made the modification based on our trails with in such a short period and got the prototype flying. However this do indicates the intention of future modifications and some will surely be influenced by PAA since we will be testing them in war and also are poised to be an export customer.


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> PAA already giving there feedback?
> 
> Not likely off course, they could not have made the modification based on our trails with in such a short period and got the prototype flying. However this do indicates the intention of future modifications and some will surely be influenced by PAA since we will be testing them in war and also are poised to be an export customer.



It's likely which also may mean that additional Z10s may only be inducted after such modifications.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> It's likely which also may mean that additional Z10s may only be inducted after such modifications.


And so we will be asking US to speed up the delivery of the Cobras if possible. Also may see increased activitiy with Russia as the deal for Mi-35 is almost finalized as per reports.


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## Quwa

What would be the optimal number of attack helicopters in the Pakistan Army, not including current AH-1s. It's a little difficult to understand how the PA is actually thinking.

Is it looking to put a greater emphasis on combat aviation such that it'd have gunship formations backing armoured columns?

I'd like to think that PA is looking to build a large gunship force composed of 100+ WZ-10s (acquired over the long-term), but I have no evidence indicating that is the case. Can this happen?


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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> What would be the optimal number of attack helicopters in the Pakistan Army, not including current AH-1s. It's a little difficult to understand how the PA is actually thinking.
> 
> Is it looking to put a greater emphasis on combat aviation such that it'd have gunship formations backing armoured columns?
> 
> I'd like to think that PA is looking to build a large gunship force composed of 100+ WZ-10s (acquired over the long-term), but I have no evidence indicating that is the case. Can this happen?



Anything is possible but a 100 gunships seems outlandish. In 1984 20 AH1S Cobras were inducted and based in Multan in support of the armoured division there and to act as last ditch effort to stall an Indian armoured advance in the desert. Obviously 20 was inadequate. I feel a force of 60 attack helos Cobras or Z10s or a Russian platform would be adequate to support the army’s offensive defensive doctrine. In addition 20 Mi35s multi purpose helos for ops along the lower LoC would be great. This alone would require a massive investment in base infrastructure, a repair and maintenance facility and finally designating the army aviation as an independent corps

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## fatman17

AW139 from No 6 Squadron in VVIP configuration

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## fatman17

Two ship formation Bell 412EP and Cobra AH1F


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## fatman17

Puma in dark olive paint

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## fatman17

Mi17 supporting ops against militancy


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## Super Falcon

Did PA ever considered replacing PUMA HELICOPTERS


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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> Did PA ever considered replacing PUMA HELICOPTERS



No they have been upgraded in Romania

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## Super Falcon

fatman17 said:


> No they have been upgraded in Romania


How long they serve and if they retire do PA has any plans for heavylifter helicopters


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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> How long they serve and if they retire do PA has any plans for heavylifter helicopters



Not heard of any concrete plans but in the past 10 ex Italian CH47 deal was nixed by the US. US is afraid we will share technology with China. Having said that many options Chinese and Russian are available.


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## fatman17

Had a chat with Bell at RIAT. They are currently working on offer to Pak Army for sale of 15 AH-1Z. DSCA announced a couple of months back.
Alan Warnes


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## fatman17

If Pak Army do acquire I'm sure they will also be offered UH-1Y. 85% commonality.
Alan Warnes


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## Super Falcon

Time for Pakistan Army to get CH 47 because of army has to coop with floods every year army does rescue work hope Army should no seriously consider them.


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## Hurter

Super Falcon said:


> Time for Pakistan Army to get CH 47 because of army has to coop with floods every year army does rescue work hope Army should no seriously consider them.



Na paisa hai itna aur na hi Amreeka ki marzi.


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## Super Falcon

Bhai ap har waqt pesa ki hi baat kyo karta ho aur chinkook koi fighter jet nahe utility heli hai usa asani se bechaga aik bar socho tu lena ka jo supercobra de raha ha chinkok pa usko kyon bukhar chadhega bhai thori akal bhi istamal karo

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## fatman17

Cobras in action

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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> Bhai ap har waqt pesa ki hi baat kyo karta ho aur chinkook koi fighter jet nahe utility heli hai usa asani se bechaga aik bar socho tu lena ka jo supercobra de raha ha chinkok pa usko kyon bukhar chadhega bhai thori akal bhi istamal karo



If you have your own funds then US will sell you what you want - almost.


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## nomi007

Death toll in Mansehra helicopter crash rises to 12, including five Pakistan Army officers of Major rank.


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## fatman17

Mi-17 Crash

All 12 on Board Killed in Pakistan Army Mi-17 Crash

Posted on 6 August, 2015



Pakistan Army Mi-17-1V 58626 on the ramp at Qasim Army Aviation Base, Rawalpindi, on November 17, 2009. A Pakistan Army Mi-17 operating from Qasim crashed this evening, killing all 12 on board. AFD-Alan Warnes

A PAKISTAN Army Aviation Corps Mi-17 crashed this evening, August 6, in the Rani Bat area of Koh-e-Bhaingra hill, 40 miles (65km) northwest of the town of Mansehra, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province, northwestern Pakistan, killing all 12 Army personnel on board. The helicopter was operating an air ambulance flight and carrying an Army medical team, including doctors and paramedics, in addition to the crew.

The crash may have been caused by bad weather as it flew over mountains while en route to Gilgit from Rawalpindi to pick up a critically ill soldier. The helicopter, which was also carrying flood relief supplies and medicines, caught fire after the crash and continued to burn late into the evening. The crash site is in an hilly area that is not easily accessible.

Only a few hours earlier, a Pakistan Air Force Mi-17 was also involved in an accident when it came down in the flood-hit Chitral district, although no serious injuries were reported. The helicopter is reported to have hit a tree during take-off in the Mastuj area while taking part in flood relief operations, but was believed not to have been seriously damaged and made an emergency landing. It had been rescuing 13 people and also evacuating a dead body. AFD-Dave Allport


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> Death toll in Mansehra helicopter crash rises to 12, including five Pakistan Army officers of Major rank.



The helo reportedly caught fire. These pics don't depict that.


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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> The helo reportedly caught fire. These pics don't depict that.


these are official images but no fire
what we can say about media


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## fatman17

Pilot in front of his mount


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## fatman17

High in the mountains


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## fatman17

Hot LZ


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## fatman17

Militant watching

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## JPMM

fatman17 said:


> Hot LZ


 This is SSG doing "Portuguese Landing", we do this since 1969 in Africa.

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## Super Falcon

Time to think slowly get rid of these flying coffins they were best geli of their time now time suggest to move own alone this year 5 crashes hope we slowly replace atleast what helicopters are destroyed dont buy anymore heli of MI 17 

Sign a project with china for Z 18 or any other medium lift helicopter Co production


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## fatman17

mi17 is still a very reliable platform. the most widely used med transport helo in the world.

accidents will happen with every type of aircraft or helo. an F16 crashed in Germany yesterday, it dosnt make the F16 a bad aircraft.


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## Arsalan

Super Falcon said:


> Time to think slowly get rid of these flying coffins they were best geli of their time now time suggest to move own alone this year 5 crashes hope we slowly replace atleast what helicopters are destroyed dont buy anymore heli of MI 17
> 
> Sign a project with china for Z 18 or any other medium lift helicopter Co production


Mi 17 being one of the most reliable platforms are here to stay for some time. This is the the best and the cheapest options that meet our need and fulfill our demand from this platform. THE BEST thing that can happen is to get a few more upgraded/modern Mi 17s and better up gradation/maintenance of the existing fleet. 
We cannot go and get a joint production agreement for everything out there. Do not have the money or the need for it. The limited number of the helicopter required will make any in house production look dumb and will be TOO expensive. A few days back similar wishes were being made for Z-10, before that the Z-20!! WE CANNOT GO AND START PRODUCTION OF EVERYTHING THAT FLIES. PAA and PAF have there own priorities and will act accordingly to them. For now, Mi 17 will stay and be the medium lift helicopter platform for our military.

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## Super Falcon

Arsalan said:


> Mi 17 being one of the most reliable platforms are here to stay for some time. This is the the best and the cheapest options that meet our need and fulfill our demand from this platform. THE BEST thing that can happen is to get a few more upgraded/modern Mi 17s and better up gradation/maintenance of the existing fleet.
> We cannot go and get a joint production agreement for everything out there. Do not have the money or the need for it. The limited number of the helicopter required will make any in house production look dumb and will be TOO expensive. A few days back similar wishes were being made for Z-10, before that the Z-20!! WE CANNOT GO AND START PRODUCTION OF EVERYTHING THAT FLIES. PAA and PAF have there own priorities and will act accordingly to them. For now, Mi 17 will stay and be the medium lift helicopter platform for our military.


Very good and untill which time we start to replace when all of them crash one by one


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## Hurter

They can replace Mi-17 slowly by introducing alternative latest transport choppers for squadron 1 or 2


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## Arsalan

Super Falcon said:


> Very good and untill which time we start to replace when all of them crash one by one


If we do so, it will take decades even by this formula.

Mi17 have OVER 12000 copies flying all over the world. It is one of the most reliable medium lift helicopter. We do not have the funds or the need to REPLACE this fleet. Upgrade programs are carried out, perhaps some structural reinforcements (IF REQUIRED) will be what we see but replacing the entire fleet is some years away.

Remember that we have around 100 Mi17 choppers with PAA, that is a huge number. All i can see if PAA replacing a few older ones with new Mi17 (platform similarity is always a priority) and further modifying/upgrading the remaining ones. That too in some years time.


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## Super Falcon

Bhaim im saying which ard crashed atleast replace them with new helicopter for time being not saying replace it now it will take time but yearly we can replace 5 MI 17 it wont be burden on funds


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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> Bhaim im saying which ard crashed atleast replace them with new helicopter for time being not saying replace it now it will take time but yearly we can replace 5 MI 17 it wont be burden on funds



The attrition losses will be replaced with Mi17s


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## fatman17

Pakistan Army & Houbara Bustard Foundation International Pakistan will carry out 18th annual aerial seed broadcast in Cholistan desert.

Pakistan Army Mushshak aircraft will be used for aerial seeding of Mallah Berry, Phel, Dharman and Lathia plants.

Photo taken at Sheikh Zayed International Air Port (SZIAP) - Rahim Yar Khan on August 4, 2015.


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## Super Falcon

I wis


fatman17 said:


> The attrition losses will be replaced with Mi17s


Hope they buy better than it


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## hassan1




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## fatman17

MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
04:40 18.08.2015

The Department of Defense awarded a contract worth more than $85 million to Textron’s Bell Helicopter division to develop updates for weapons systems for the US and Pakistani helicopter fleets, the US Navy said in a press release.

WASHINGTON (Sputnik) — In April 2015, the Department of State approved a $925 million foreign military sale to the Pakistan government for a fleet of attack helicopters and hellfire missiles. The principal contractors on that deal were Boeing, Bell, General Electric and Lockheed Martin.

The new contract calls on Bell to develop updates for weapons systems in support of the US Navy and Pakistani government helicopter fleets.

Bell’s work on the weapons systems will be performed in Fort Worth, Texas, and is expected to be completed in August 2020.



Read more: US Awards Bell Helicopter $85Mln to Upgrade Navy, Pakistan Weapons Systems / Sputnik International


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## Signalian

Crashes usually happen when the machine is not maintained properly. Mi-17 is the work horse of PA, can carry 25-30 troops, large enough to carry good amount of weapons/ammo and operate in most terrains. Still it should be phased out gradually with a newer heli if the life of entire fleet is ending in coming years.


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## fatman17

Snakes and Rotors: The USMC’s H-1 Helicopter Program

H-1 helos: AH-1Z & UH-1Y: The H-1 helicopter fleet of both the Navy and Pakistan will receive a boost through a $85.5 million contract to develop weapons systems for the aircraft as part of its system configuration set (SCS). The SCS intends to create prototypes for emerging operational requirements, with the majority of this contract covering acquisitions for the US Navy, with the contract set to run to 2020.


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## Donatello

So finally, work is starting on the AH-1Z for Pakistan. Hmm, nice and quiet.

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## Hurter

fatman17 said:


> Snakes and Rotors: The USMC’s H-1 Helicopter Program
> 
> H-1 helos: AH-1Z & UH-1Y: The H-1 helicopter fleet of both the Navy and Pakistan will receive a boost through a $85.5 million contract to develop weapons systems for the aircraft as part of its system configuration set (SCS). The SCS intends to create prototypes for emerging operational requirements, with the majority of this contract covering acquisitions for the US Navy, with the contract set to run to 2020.



When Pakistan will get the delivery of Bell AH-1 SuperCobra?


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## fatman17

Junaid B said:


> When Pakistan will get the delivery of Bell AH-1 SuperCobra?



Work has started. Stay tuned

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## fatman17

Flight Test Aerospace (Private) Limited, Pakistan, (FTA, Pakistan) is a subsidiary of Flight Test Aerospace, Incorporated (FTA , Inc).We are registered with Securities and Exchange Commission of Pakistan (SECP) . 

In 2008, FTA Inc. was incorporated as an S-Corporation and its scope broadened to include maintenance and logistical support for a variety of military and governmental agencies programs in aviation.

In 2008, FTA joined the Northrop Grumman, Counter-Narcotics Global Support (CNGS) as a logistics supplier of MI-17 components and spare parts. 

In 2009, through Team CNGS, FTA began an ambitious program to undertake the 1,500-hours overhaul of Pakistan’s Army Aviation Command (PAAC) fleet of MI-17s. 

In 2013 FTA overhauled Government of Punjab MI-17 helicopter. Furthermore several important studies were carried out by FTA Inc. for up gradation of Pakistan’s Army Aviation Command Aircraft. 

FTA’s performance in support of Pakistan Army Aviation Command’s Mi-17 helicopters includes:

Repaired, overhauled, modified eighteen (18) AAC Mi-17 helicopters.

Identified and resolved discrepant aircraft component passports, undocumented parts, and suspect parts.

Procured, inspected, and delivered 472 authentic replacement and spare parts, with all requisite passports and technical documentation, for AAC Mi-17 helicopters.

Properly transported via ground and air AAC’s helicopters from Qasim Air Base (AB) to FTA’s partner overhaul facilities in the Russian Federation (RF).

Provided responsive in-country warranty support for all Mi-17 repair/overhaul services and replacement/spare parts.

Performed a Technical Assessment of entire AAC fleet of 56 Mi-17 (5 variants) helicopters.

Conducted a Feasibility Study to evaluate AAC capability to establish an indigenous certified Mi-17 overhaul capability. 

With our new broadened scope focusing on maintenance and logistics of Russian helicopters, Flight Test Aerospace has solidified agreements with OEM authorities “Joint Stock Company (JSC), OPK Oboronprom”, JSC “Helicopter Services Company”, “FSUE Rosoboronexport and JSC 356 ARP (Aircraft Repair Plant), Engels, Saratov. 

Besides, it has contracts with renowned overhaul plants within and outside the Russian Federation. Logistics and Global Supply Chain Management


FTA Pakistan is pleased to inform its valued customers on the availability of more than 200 line item of Mi 8, Mi 17, Spare Parts & Maintenance Kits ex-warehouse for immediate delivery with competitive pricing on FOB bases.

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## fatman17

Areas of Specialization in Support of Pakistan Armed Forces MI-17 Helicopter

It includes:-

>>

Complete Logistic Support including spares and services support.

>>

Overhaul maintenance and technical support.

>>

Pilots and maintenance personal basic, advance and NVG training.

MI-17 Helicopter Upgradation

This includes reconfiguring cockpit panels with:-

>>

Non-metric display instruments.

>>

Intercom systems.

>>

Communication and navigation Avionics.

Establishment of Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul Facilities at 503 AviationBase Workshop

Flight Test Aerospace, Pakistan has secured the services of key senior Mi-17 engineers and corporate managers to provide both technical and managerial expertise in support of the Mi-17 aircraft. 

Based on the current evolutions, FTA has proposed to PAAC, a plan to establish an MRO capability at the 503 ABW able to support major repairs and overhaul of Mi-17 aircraft on a continuing basis. The proposal is under evaluation at appropriate level.

Now completed and operational.

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## fatman17

With so much invested in the Mi17 platform it is very difficult to switch platforms because of a couple of unfortunate accidents.

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## fatman17

Army chief inspecting the 1st locally overhauled Mi17 helo


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## fatman17

Mi17


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> With so much invested in the Mi17 platform it is very difficult to switch platforms because of a couple of unfortunate accidents.



With Russian relations getting better, any chance of increasing the fleet size so that the average number of hours flown per unit is reduced?


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> With Russian relations getting better, any chance of increasing the fleet size so that the average number of hours flown per unit is reduced?



There is every possibility. The attrition losses will be ordered definitely.


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## Stealth

No mentioned anywhere that Pakistan selected AH-1Z super cobra. Secondly the contract is about "Update of Pakistan navy fleet system" which system in Pakistan Navy belongs to BELL by the way ?


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## Rashid Mahmood

Stealth said:


> No mentioned anywhere that Pakistan selected AH-1Z super cobra. Secondly the contract is about "Update of Pakistan navy fleet system" which system in Pakistan Navy belongs to BELL by the way ?



The US Department of Defense today has awarded a US $85 million contract to Bell Textron Inc to develop weapon systems to support US, *Pakistani government helicopter fleet *and US Navy.

The new contract is an update to a $925 million contract to supply fleet of attack helicopters and hellfire missiles awarded to Boeing, Bell, General Electric and Lockheed Martin in April this year.

According to the previous contract, Pakistan will receive 15 AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters, 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II missiles in containers, 32 T-700 GE 401C engines (30 installed and 2 spares) and 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target sight systems.

The package also includes 30 629F-23 ultra-high frequency/very high frequency communication systems, 19 H-764 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems, 32 helmet mounted display/optimized top owl, 17 APX-117A identification friend or foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 missile warning systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 countermeasure dispenser sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 radar warning receivers, 15 joint mission planning systems, and 17 M197 20mm gun systems.


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## Stealth

Rashid Mahmood said:


> The US Department of Defense today has awarded a US $85 million contract to Bell Textron Inc to develop weapon systems to support US, *Pakistani government helicopter fleet *and US Navy.
> 
> The new contract is an update to a $925 million contract to supply fleet of attack helicopters and hellfire missiles awarded to Boeing, Bell, General Electric and Lockheed Martin in April this year.
> 
> According to the previous contract, Pakistan will receive 15 AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters, 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II missiles in containers, 32 T-700 GE 401C engines (30 installed and 2 spares) and 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target sight systems.
> 
> The package also includes 30 629F-23 ultra-high frequency/very high frequency communication systems, 19 H-764 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems, 32 helmet mounted display/optimized top owl, 17 APX-117A identification friend or foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 missile warning systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 countermeasure dispenser sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 radar warning receivers, 15 joint mission planning systems, and 17 M197 20mm gun systems.



Not this radar ?


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## Rashid Mahmood

Stealth said:


> Not this radar ?
> 
> View attachment 248363



This is basically the Longbow Hellfire Radar fitted on a Cobra.
This is not part of the package.

The AH-1Z Viper can still operate with a Longbow radar installed at the tip of one of his hangers arms (wing).This radar can detect, classify and prioritize multiple fixed and mobile targets, and the power to mobile targets is 8 km and static targets is 4 km.

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## datalibdaz

Rashid Mahmood said:


> This is basically the Longbow Hellfire Radar fitted on a Cobra.
> This is not part of the package.
> 
> The AH-1Z Viper can still operate with a Longbow radar installed at the tip of one of his hangers arms (wing).This radar can detect, classify and prioritize multiple fixed and mobile targets, and the power to mobile targets is 8 km and static targets is 4 km.
> 
> View attachment 248374



If we are getting hellfires, we are getting the longbow radar...or did we miss these?


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## fatman17

Pakistan, Russia sign landmark defence deal

BY STAFF REPORT

Pakistan to buy Russian Mi-35 Hind E attack helicopters

Pakistan and Russia on Wednesday signed a landmark defence deal for the purchase of Mi-35 ‘Hind E’ attack helicopters.

“The agreement was signed by top defence officials from Pakistan and Russia at Rawalpindi on Wednesday,” said a military source.

Both countries were negotiating the deal for past year, signalling a major thaw in relations between the two cold-war rivals.

Late last year, Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu arrived on a visit to Pakistan which was aimed at discussing bilateral defence cooperation with the Pakistani leadership.

Last year, CEO of Russia’s Rostec hi-tech corporation Sergey Chemezov said that Russia had lifted its embargo on delivery of military hardware and armaments to Pakistan and negotiations were being held on delivering helicopters.

Russia’s Foreign Ministry also said that both sides have been negotiating the delivery of helicopters and that Pakistan currently has a number of Mi-17 helicopters delivered by the United States to assist in the fight against militancy.

The Mi-35M helicopter is an exceedingly modernised version of Mi-24 (Hind) combat helicopter with new onboard equipment and avionics. It also has a more powerful engine and a different tail rotor.

Pakistan and Russia had signed a bilateral defence cooperation agreement aimed at strengthening military-to-military relations in November last year. The deal had to be followed by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ to pave the way for sale of defence equipment to Pakistan.

Besides helicopters, Pakistan also appears interested in other Russian hardware.

Russia and Pakistan have lately been working on enhancing defence cooperation and are believed to have already covered a lot of ground. Exchange of visits by military commanders in recent years is an indication of progress achieved in this regard.

India’s decision to enter into tighter embrace with the US had prompted Russia to rethink its defence relationship with Pakistan.


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## fatman17

AVIATION PROJECTS

 Simulator Training of Pakistan Army Aviation Mi-17 / Mi-171 Pilots (2009 – Up to date) 
 Simulator Training of Pakistan Army Aviation SA-330 (Puma) Pilots (2010 – Up to date) 
 Installation of Instrument Landing System (ILS) at Aviation Base, (2008 – Up to date) 
 Gattling Gun M-134 D for cargo helicopters (Mi-17) / Bell 412 (2010 – Up to date) 
 Armouring Solution for Bell 412 Helicopters ( Mar 2011 to date) 
 Armouring Solution for Mi-17 Helicopters ( Recent) 
 Offered Simulator Training of Pakistan Army Aviation HUEY-II and COBRA Pilots (recent)


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## fatman17

Stealth said:


> No mentioned anywhere that Pakistan selected AH-1Z super cobra. Secondly the contract is about "Update of Pakistan navy fleet system" which system in Pakistan Navy belongs to BELL by the way ?



Read carefully. Talking of US Navy.

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## Stealth



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## Signalian

4 of these allotted to SSG can wreak havoc with quick rope of SSG and covering fire by Mi 35. 70mm can play a decisive role in decimating hard shelters. The cockpit is 7.62mm proof.

PAA also needs a dedicated strike aircraft on the lines of A10, SU25 etc. This will relieve the PAF of close air support duties when requested by PA. 

ATGM carrying choppers can work relatively easily in own airspace where air superiority may not be an issue. During an armoured breakthrough by IA inside Pakistan territory they can be easily shifted to the threatened sector and take out enemy tanks. 

The problem arises if PA armoured forces venture Into Indian Territory and need CAS. Without air superiority, sending in choppers would prove fatal. IAF will be quick to respond for taking our choppers in their airspace.

If a CAS aircraft is handed over to PAA which can not only fend off enemy aircraft by carrying A2A weapons but can also carry a wide variety of weapons to take our C4I, HQ, bridges, ammo fuel dumps, armoured vehicles and concentrations on a moments notice and get out quick,can take a lot of burden off the PAF. CAS aircrafts can also soften the target by bombing before the assault takes place and save hundreds of precious lives. Such dedicated aircraft can be put at disposal of Corps or theater commander.


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## Stealth

Get UH1 and A-10.....

A-10, Bell 412, Bell UH1, Ah1Z, AH1F, Mi35 damn combo against Indian Armor....


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## JPMM

fatman17 said:


> AVIATION PROJECTS
> 
>  Simulator Training of Pakistan Army Aviation Mi-17 / Mi-171 Pilots (2009 – Up to date)
>  Simulator Training of Pakistan Army Aviation SA-330 (Puma) Pilots (2010 – Up to date)
>  Installation of Instrument Landing System (ILS) at Aviation Base, (2008 – Up to date)
> * Gattling Gun M-134 D for cargo helicopters (Mi-17) / Bell 412 (2010 – Up to date) *
>  Armouring Solution for Bell 412 Helicopters ( Mar 2011 to date)
>  Armouring Solution for Mi-17 Helicopters ( Recent)
>  Offered Simulator Training of Pakistan Army Aviation HUEY-II and COBRA Pilots (recent)


 
Very good news, only MG3 were mounted on B412, the Mi17/B412 can "clean" the landing area with the M134D


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## fatman17

Asia

Following reports from March indicating that the country was showing interest in Russian helicopters, Pakistan is buying four Mil Mi-35M Hind attack helicopters from Russia through a deal of undisclosed value. 

The helicopters were cleared for sale to Pakistan in June 2014 , with the model also exported to Azerbaijan, Brazil and Egypt


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## fatman17

JPMM said:


> Very good news, only MG3 were mounted on B412, the Mi17/B412 can "clean" the landing area with the M134D



Mean SOB


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## fatman17

ASIA & PACIFIC
09:23 20.08.2015

According to the Russian Embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan signed a contract for Russia's Mi-35M transport and attack helicopters.

NEW DELHI (Sputnik) — Pakistan will acquire four Russian Mi-35M helicopters, the Russian Embassy in Islamabad said Thursday.

"The contract for four Mi-35M transport and attack helicopters was signed late last week," an embassy spokesperson told RIA Novosti.

According to the spokesperson, the agreement was reached between Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport and Pakistan's Ministry of Defense.

In July, Deputy CEO of Russian Helicopters Andrey Shibitov said a decision to supply Mi-35M helicopters to Pakistan to fight terrorism could be made in the near future.

In September 2014, Rosoboronexport's deputy director general, Sergey Goreslavsky, said Pakistan was seeking to purchase several Mi-35M helicopters to combat terrorism. Russia and Pakistan signed a deal to collaborate on defense two months later.

The Mi-24/25/35 family, with capabilities of landing and transporting up to eight paratroopers, is in current use by the Russian, Brazilian, Venezuelan and Azerbaijani armed forces.



Read more: Pakistan Will Purchase Four Russian Mi-35M Helicopters / Sputnik International


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## fatman17

General Information

The multirole Mi-35M attack helicopter is a comprehensive modernisation of the Mi-24V. The Mi-35M was developed by the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant, and has been series produced at Rostvertol since 2005.

The Mi-35M offers round the clock:

Combat use of guided and unguided weapons in regular and challenging climate conditions;Operational for attack flights at altitudes of 10-25 m daytime and 50 m at night over land or water.

For round-the-clock combat use, the Mi-35M is equipped with the latest navigation and avionics suite with multifunction coloured displays, target sights system that includes a thermal imager and TV channels, laser range finder and location finder.

The Mi-35M is distinguished by its improved construction. It is equipped with the latest Klimov-produced powerful VK-2500 turboshaft engines, fibreglass main rotor blades, main rotor head with elastomeric joints, a new swashplate and X-type tail rotor. The Mi-35M’s fuselage boasts shortened stub wings and fixed landing gear.

The Mi-35M boasts enhanced flight capabilities, and can be operated at high temperatures and in mountainous terrain. The Mi-35M’s design ensures low noise levels, greater combat resilience, and reduces the workload on maintenance staff.

In addition to its attack capabilities, the Mi-35M can also be used in other operations:

Landing-transporting up to 8 paratroopers, with equipment, in the transport cabin;Transporting military supplies or other cargo weighing up to 1,500 kg internally. The Mi-35M is also fitted with an external sling system, expanding its cargo carrying capacity to 2,400 kg.Medical uses include carrying the sick and injured along with medical personnel.

Mi-24/25/35 helicopters have proved their high levels of operational efficiency over many years in service. The Mi-35M combines this unique experience of combat operation with the latest achievements and developments in helicopter building.

The Mi-35 is operated by the Armed Forces of Russia, Venezuela, Brazil and Azerbaijan.


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## fatman17

Mi35M Telly bunny's latest nightmare


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## fatman17

Z10 or T129 demo


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## fatman17

Army aviation work horse


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## Dazzler

fatman17 said:


> Z10 or T129 demo




ATAK


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Pakistan buys initial batch of four Mi-35s

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

20 August 2015

Pakistan and Russia signed a formal agreement on 19 August for Russia to sell four Mi-35 attack helicopters to the Pakistan Army, the country's main operator of helicopters, in a deal considered a breakthrough between the two countries.

Following Pakistan's initial buy of four aircraft, a significant number of additional Mi-35s will be purchased. (Russian Helicopters)

Neither a price for the contract nor the potential number of additional helicopters to be bought was revealed. However, a senior government official told IHS Jane's that it will be "a significant number", adding that the four Mi-35s covered by the contract will be paid for from funds allocated in Pakistan's budget for its present July-June financial year.

"As we go forward, other purchases [of the Mi-35] will be made from funds allocated in coming financial years," said the official.

Using similar purchase strategy of buying in batches like the Mi17s


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Pakistan buys initial batch of four Mi-35s
> 
> Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 20 August 2015
> 
> Pakistan and Russia signed a formal agreement on 19 August for Russia to sell four Mi-35 attack helicopters to the Pakistan Army, the country's main operator of helicopters, in a deal considered a breakthrough between the two countries.
> 
> Following Pakistan's initial buy of four aircraft, a significant number of additional Mi-35s will be purchased. (Russian Helicopters)
> 
> Neither a price for the contract nor the potential number of additional helicopters to be bought was revealed. However, a senior government official told IHS Jane's that it will be "a significant number", adding that the four Mi-35s covered by the contract will be paid for from funds allocated in Pakistan's budget for its present July-June financial year.
> 
> "As we go forward, other purchases [of the Mi-35] will be made from funds allocated in coming financial years," said the official.
> 
> Using similar purchase strategy of buying in batches like the Mi17s


According to HKhan of pakdef.info, the Russian source of soft loans disappeared and therefore PAA had to buy the helos of its own pockets. The ywill build up numbers as money becomes available.
Araz


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## Signalian

Its ironic. 

USSR used them against Mujahideen in 1980's. Now PA will use them against TTP who have roots in mujahideen. 
anyways, better late than never.


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## araz

Sarge said:


> Its ironic.
> 
> USSR used them against Mujahideen in 1980's. Now PA will use them against TTP who have roots in mujahideen.
> anyways, better late than never.


The only problem being the Afghan Mujahideen have disowned the TTP. This is a faction being operated by miscreants with money from vested interests and hence the action from Pak Army.
Ara


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## fatman17

Sarge said:


> Its ironic.
> 
> USSR used them against Mujahideen in 1980's. Now PA will use them against TTP who have roots in mujahideen.
> anyways, better late than never.



That's life 360* cycle


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## fatman17

The full article below. 


Pakistan buys initial batch of four Mi-35s

Farhan Bokhari
Islamabad 
21/08/2015


Following Pakistan’s initial buy of four aircraft, “a significant number” of additional Mi-35s will be purchased.

Pakistan and Russia signed a formal agreement on 19 August for Russia to sell four Mi-35 attack helicopters to the Pakistan Army, the country’s main operator of helicopters, in a deal considered a breakthrough between the two countries.

Neither a price for the contract nor the potential number of additional helicopters to be bought was revealed. However, a senior government official told IHS Jane’s that it will be “a significant number”, adding that the four Mi-35s covered by the contract will be paid for from funds allocated in Pakistan’s budget for its present July–June financial year.

“As we go forward, other purchases [of the Mi-35] will be made from funds allocated in coming financial years,” said the official. In the past IHS Jane’s has been told by senior Pakistani officials that the country aims to eventually purchase up to 20 Mi-35 platforms.

In April the US Defense Security Co-operation Agency (DSCA) announced the upcoming sale of 15 Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters to the Pakistan Army. However, according to analysts, Pakistan’s continued pursuit of an advanced Russian helicopter reflects anxiety within the country’s defence forces over exclusive reliance on US-provided hardware.

The discomfort goes back to US sanctions under the Pressler amendment, which in 1990 blocked further sales of F-16 fighters to Pakistan. “Helicopters are an essential centrepiece in the kinds of operations being undertaken today by the Pakistan Army. Everyone wants to see a smooth and continued supply of hardware, including helicopters,” Brigadier Farooq Hameed Khan (retd), a former Pakistan Army helicopter pilot and now a prominent commentator on defence and security affairs, told IHS Jane’s.


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## fatman17

Russia-Pakistan Mi-35 Contract Could be Expanded

© Sputnik/ Kirill Kallinikov


Russia could potentially sell up to 12 Mi-35 helicopters to Pakistan.

© SPUTNIK/ ANTON DENISOV

Rosoboronexport's Order Portfolio for Aviation Equipment Tops $18 Bln

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — The contract on the delivery of four Russian Mi-35 helicopters to Pakistan could be expanded, head of the Russian Foreign Ministry's Second Asia Department Zamir Kabulov said Tuesday.

"It all depends on money. Pakistan has stated that it has the financial means for 10-12 helicopters of this type, but negotiations are ongoing," Kabulov told RIA Novosti.

Moscow and Islamabad are discussing possible supplies of Russian defensive weapons to Pakistan, Kabulov added.

"Pakistan has an interest in other Russian weapon systems. Negotiations are underway. We are talking about defensive systems," Kabulov told RIA Novosti.

In March, Pakistani President Mamnoon Hussain announced Islamabad's intention to expand military-technical commerce with Russia with the purchase of Mi-35 gunships.

In August, a contract for four Mi-35M transport and attack helicopters was signed by Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport and Pakistan's Ministry of Defense, according to a spokesperson for the Russian Embassy in Islamabad.

The Mi-35M (NATO Designation Hind-E) is an upgraded export version of the Mi-24V multipurpose assault helicopter, developed by the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant.



Read more: Russia-Pakistan Mi-35 Contract Could be Expanded / Sputnik International

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## fatman17

Base price $36 million per helo. So contract for 4 helos roughly $ 160 million.


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## fatman17

Base price Mi17 helo is $ 17 million per copy.


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## Ayeshaali

Very Useful Post . Thanks For Sharing...


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## fatman17

Contract Awarded for Pakistan and USMC AH-1Zs and USMC UH-1Ys

Contract Awarded for Pakistan and USMC AH-1Zs and USMC UH-1Ys

Posted on 26 August, 2015 



A US Marine Corps AH-1Z Viper from Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 161 (Reinforced) ‘Greyhawks’, assigned to the 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit, approaches the amphibious transport dock USS Anchorage (LPD 23) in the Arabia Sea on July 6, 2015. A contract was announced yesterday for Lot 12 production of both the AH-1Z and UH-1Y Venom for the USMC, plus the first AH-1Zs for the Pakistan Army. US Marine Corps/Sgt Jamean Berry

BELL HELICOPTER has received its first export order for the AH-1Z Viper. US Naval Air Systems Command awarded a $581,113,421 contract to the company yesterday, August 25, for the purchase of AH-1Zs for both the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps and US Marine Corps. The deal also included UH-1Y Venom helicopters for the USMC and 21 auxiliary fuel kits. Work is to be completed in August 2018.

The order comprises 19 Lot 12 AH-1Zs, 15 Lot 12 UH-1Ys and one Lot 13 UH-1Y. It was not specified how many of the AH-1Zs are for Pakistan. However, as previously reported onAFD, the US Defense Security Co-operation Agency had notified Congress on April 6 this year of a planned Foreign Military Sale of 15 AH-1Zs to Pakistan. This planned deal was valued at $952 million, including 1,000 AGM-114R Hellfire II missiles, 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems, associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support.

Yesterday’s contract announcement by the US Department of Defense said that 90% of the financing ($523,193,712) was for the USMC helicopters, with only 10% ($57,919,709) covering the AH-1Zs for Pakistan. This clearly does not fund all 15 of the Pakistani aircraft, as the average unit cost of an AH-1Z is generally considered to be between $27-31 million.

A contract for long-lead items for Lot 12 new-build helicopter production had been awarded on March 27, 2014, covering eleven AH-1Zs and 15 UH-1Ys for the USMC. Assuming the new award covers all eleven Lot 12 AH-1Zs for the USMC, this suggests the remaining eight helicopters should be for Pakistan, although the FMS funding allocated does not seem sufficient to cover the cost of this number. AFD-Dave Allport


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

DoD awards Pakistan AH-1Z contract

Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

25 August 2015

Pakistan has requested the sale of 15 AH-1Z attack helicopters. The DoD has awarded a contract for what appears to be the first two such helicopters. 

The US Department of Defense (DoD) has awarded Bell Helicopter a USD581 million contract that includes the delivery of AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters to Pakistan.

The contract, which was announced by the DoD on 26 August but awarded the day before, covers the manufacture and delivery of 15 Lot 12 UH-1Y Venom utility helicopters, 19 Lot 12 AH-1Zs, one Lot 13 UH-1Y, and 21 auxiliary fuel kits for the US Marine Corps (USMC) and government of Pakistan.

Pakistan requested the sale of 15 AH-1Z helicopters in April, and this announcement is the first official confirmation that a deal has been signed. While the notification does not say how many of the 15 helicopters have been signed for at this stage, it states that 10% (USD57.9 million) of the overall contract value covers the sale to the government of Pakistan. This suggests that this is an initial deal for the first two helicopters only, with contracts for the remaining 13 (plus spares and support) to follow.

According to the DoD, these initial helicopters will be delivered by the end of August 2018. The original US Defense Security Co-operation Agency notification of Pakistan's request included 1,000 AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-surface missiles for "a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high altitudes. By acquiring this [AH-1Z and Hellfire II] capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency [NWA], the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATAs], and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day and night environments".

The contract notification is the latest development in Pakistan's ongoing efforts to bolster its rotary-winged attack capabilities. As well as procuring the 15 AH-1Zs to bolster and eventually replace its existing 32 AH-1F Cobra platforms, Pakistan has also evaluated the Chinese CHAIG WZ-10 attack helicopters, which has included flying them operationally on counter-terrorism missions, and is rumoured to be interested in the Russian-built Mil Mi-28NE 'Havoc' as well. On 19 August it was announced that Pakistan and Russia had signed a formal agreement for the procurement of four Mi-35 'Hind' attack helicopters, with more likely to follow.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Base price $36 million per helo. So contract for 4 helos roughly $ 160 million.


Do we know what armaments will be on the helo and whether we can integrate Chinese /Pak weapons on it?. Certainly interesting times and 10-12 units seems a reasonable initial buy.Thanks for sharing the info.
Araz


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## fatman17

araz said:


> Do we know what armaments will be on the helo and whether we can integrate Chinese /Pak weapons on it?. Certainly interesting times and 10-12 units seems a reasonable initial buy.Thanks for sharing the info.
> Araz



No info but most likely Russian Origin weapons


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> No info but most likely Russian Origin weapons


That will create its own nightmare in storage of different sets of armaments. For commonality we should have pushed for chinese and local weapons to be integrated on board.
Araz

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## Arsalan

araz said:


> That will create its own nightmare in storage of different sets of armaments. For commonality we should have pushed for chinese and local weapons to be integrated on board.
> Araz


Specially considering the number we are initially going for. Even if the number of Mi-35 is increased it is unlikely it will get to a level where these will be our main offensive helicopters. That role will remain with Cobra or Z-10 in future so the number of Mi-35 will be relatively lower. In this case, weapon commonality using Pakistani or Chinese weapon systems would have helped.

@fatman17 , Sir, the base price of 36 million? The cobra are reported to be 27 - 31 Million US$ in the report in post 2720. These Mi-35 are more expensive?


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## fjavaid

Any news abt the Z10 evaluation that was supposed to be going on .....or they r put in storage


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> Specially considering the number we are initially going for. Even if the number of Mi-35 is increased it is unlikely it will get to a level where these will be our main offensive helicopters. That role will remain with Cobra or Z-10 in future so the number of Mi-35 will be relatively lower. In this case, weapon commonality using Pakistani or Chinese weapon systems would have helped.
> 
> @fatman17 , Sir, the base price of 36 million? The cobra are reported to be 27 - 31 Million US$ in the report in post 2720. These Mi-35 are more expensive?



Russian helos are in high demand and the prices have been increased depending on configuration. Additionally the Mi35M is a multi mission platform.

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## fatman17

araz said:


> That will create its own nightmare in storage of different sets of armaments. For commonality we should have pushed for chinese and local weapons to be integrated on board.
> Araz



Western avionics suite can be integrated on the Mi35M which will escalate the base price. We just have to wait and see until further information comes out.


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## fatman17

fjavaid said:


> Any news abt the Z10 evaluation that was supposed to be going on .....or they r put in storage



Nothing that I've heard but I'm sure something must be going on by now. Shawal valley is the best place to evaluate these helos.

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## nomi007

* Z-10 Attach Helicopter, full loaded. *

Note the pair inside pylons can house either multi-barrel unguided rocket pods or a pair of external fuel tanks.








not a bad choice

thanks to china for great gift


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## nomi007

any idea about base








is he paa pilot?


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## Sulman Badshah

nomi007 said:


> is he paa pilot?


Turkish pilot on T129 attack chopper

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> PAA already giving there feedback?
> 
> Not likely off course, they could not have made the modification based on our trails with in such a short period and got the prototype flying. However this do indicates the intention of future modifications and some will surely be influenced by PAA since we will be testing them in war and also are poised to be an export customer.


May be this includes western weapons (Turkish).



nomi007 said:


> any idea about base
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is he paa pilot?


ISB or Gujranwala.


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## nomi007

mi-35m

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## ACE OF THE AIR

@nomi007 Ready to be delivered to PAA? The colours seem to be of PA.

Any pic with the Pakistan Flag?

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## Donatello

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> ISB or Gujranwala.



Multan? Since Attack choppers are based there....

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## khanasifm

Gsh-23L 23mm same cannon as JF-17 ??


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Donatello said:


> Multan? Since Attack choppers are based there....


From the first pic is seems more on storage, where as the second seems as if some training is being done like cockpit time or evaluating the systems and getting on grips with switches and systems.


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## Jango

Donatello said:


> Multan? Since Attack choppers are based there....



Nope, that ain't Multan, that I am sure of 99%.


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## Donatello

Jango said:


> Nope, that ain't Multan, that I am sure of 99%.



Hmm maybe, but i just had a guess because Multan is the primary airbase for Army's attach helos and some Mushaks. Plus someone stated here that WZ-10s were in Multan for testing. But if i remember from trip to the aviation hangers at Multan airport many moons ago, the hangers seemed more closed and not enough light pouring into them, unlike the ones in the picture.

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Hmm maybe, but i just had a guess because Multan is the primary airbase for Army's attach helos and some Mushaks. Plus someone stated here that WZ-10s were in Multan for testing. But if i remember from trip to the aviation hangers at Multan airport many moons ago, the hangers seemed more closed and not enough light pouring into them, unlike the ones in the picture.



Qasim dhamial


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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> May be this includes western weapons (Turkish).


That is a big may be, specially at the moment, given that we do not know the exact specification of Chinese weapon systems that we may get with any future Z-10 deal. Since the specs of weapons that can come from China there is no need to speculate about a need to replace them with Turkish systems, the Chinese may be even better! We dont know anything about it yet.



> ISB or Gujranwala.


Sorry, none of the above.


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> any idea about base
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is he paa pilot?


bhai ye Z-10 urty hain kya ?????? ager urty hain to uraaty kiyoo nhi

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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> bhai ye Z-10 urty hain kya ?????? ager urty hain to uraaty kiyoo nhi


chupa k rakha hoa hai
ab w he wajohat ho sakti hain 
1. nazar e bad 
2. taliban ka dar


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> That is a big may be, specially at the moment, given that we do not know the exact specification of Chinese weapon systems that we may get with any future Z-10 deal. Since the specs of weapons that can come from China there is no need to speculate about a need to replace them with Turkish systems, the Chinese may be even better! We dont know anything about it yet.
> 
> 
> Sorry, none of the above.



I'm sure that Pakistan’s baktar shikan can be integrated on the Z10 which would be a immediate advantage.


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> I'm sure that Pakistan’s baktar shikan can be integrated on the Z10 which would be a immediate advantage.


We should fit something similar to hellfire


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## imtiaz nabi

Does that z10 contains advanced sensors like that of apache?


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> I'm sure that Pakistan’s baktar shikan can be integrated on the Z10 which would be a immediate advantage.


Well that is a different thing from getting Turkish weapon package, and as you suggested, will be an immediate advantage. The point is talks of replacing the Chinese weapons (that we do not know all about) with Turkish weapons (that again we don't know much about) at this point is a bit too early. Let the Chinese weapons fail (if that is what people are thinking) and then we can go for Turkish systems. Army wont be buying just to please people. Baktar Shikan offers a different advantage all together as you have rightly suggested.



Zarvan said:


> We should fit something similar to hellfire



Z-10 carries HJ-10, it is reportedly similar to HELLFIRE. The advantage that Baktar Shikan will offer immediately is of a different nature. However we may see HJ-10 as the primary anti-Armour weapon (IF we get Z-10) and may have local production setup. HJ-10 production/technology will also be of great help considering the long list of derivatives meant to equip UCAV, and lighter longer range derivative meant for non-armored targets etc.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Well that is a different thing from getting Turkish weapon package, and as you suggested, will be an immediate advantage. The point is talks of replacing the Chinese weapons (that we do not know all about) with Turkish weapons (that again we don't know much about) at this point is a bit too early. Let the Chinese weapons fail (if that is what people are thinking) and then we can go for Turkish systems. Army wont be buying just to please people. Baktar Shikan offers a different advantage all together as you have rightly suggested.
> 
> 
> 
> Z-10 carries HJ-10, it is reportedly similar to HELLFIRE. The advantage that Baktar Shikan will offer immediately is of a different nature. However we may see HJ-10 as the primary anti-Armour weapon (IF we get Z-10) and may have local production setup. HJ-10 production/technology will also be of great help considering the long list of derivatives meant to equip UCAV, and lighter longer range derivative meant for non-armored targets etc.


Pakistan should slowly keep increasing WZ-10 numbers in its arsenal and Pakistan should get WZ-10 with wz16 engine and the other upgrades which were done in WZ-10 recently by China. With this engine and other up grades it pretty much matches Apache in performance. I don't know about manufacturing but for sure we need to develop full maintenance sight in Pakistan for our helicopters fleet. These helicopters along with massive artillery and MRL will be our backbone to counter India's cold start doctrine


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## Arsalan

imtiaz nabi said:


> Does that z10 contains advanced sensors like that of apache?



Surely it have advance sensors, it is an attack helicopter. What sensors are you actually pointing to?

It have HOTAS control system, the first Chinese helicopter with that capability. The helicopter is built to Chinese GJV289A standard, the Chinese equivalent of MIL-STD-1553B enabling rapid deployment of western systems after addition of a single module or interface.

A radar incorporating ground mapping, terrain-avoidance, and terrain-following radar capabilities

It have a pretty decent YH-96 EW suite that integrates the radar, radar warning receivers, laser warning recivers, electronic support measures and ECM together. Plus there is the ability to carry a wide range of navigational/targeting/protection and jamming PODs.

The Z-10 have a primary optronics FCS with TV camera, night vision and thermal imaging camera, the Chinese call it Airborne Stabilized Aiming System. The latest version has a laser ranger / designator for semi-active laser guided missiles such as HJ-10. A further development incorporates a laser ranging / targeting system that can perform all of the functions previously handled by separate system. *All this is compatible with pilot’s HMS.*

About the radar, yes there is a Milli-meter wave fire control radar. Light weight compared to some other systems such as the one of Ka-50 or the Mi-28N, uses a single antenna similar to the AN/APG-78 used for AH-64D Apache. Also there is a mast mounted optronics FCS tested aboard Z-9 that might come in with Z-10 as well in future.

*So yes, overall, it have a pretty decent avionic and sensor suite. *

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## imtiaz nabi

Arsalan said:


> Surely it have advance sensors, it is an attack helicopter. What sensors are you actually pointing to?
> 
> It have HOTAS control system, the first Chinese helicopter with that capability. The helicopter is built to Chinese GJV289A standard, the Chinese equivalent of MIL-STD-1553B enabling rapid deployment of western systems after addition of a single module or interface.
> 
> A radar incorporating ground mapping, terrain-avoidance, and terrain-following radar capabilities
> 
> It have a pretty decent YH-96 EW suite that integrates the radar, radar warning receivers, laser warning recivers, electronic support measures and ECM together. Plus there is the ability to carry a wide range of navigational/targeting/protection and jamming PODs.
> 
> The Z-10 have a primary optronics FCS with TV camera, night vision and thermal imaging camera, the Chinese call it Airborne Stabilized Aiming System. The latest version has a laser ranger / designator for semi-active laser guided missiles such as HJ-10. A further development incorporates a laser ranging / targeting system that can perform all of the functions previously handled by separate system. *All this is compatible with pilot’s HMS.*
> 
> About the radar, yes there is a Milli-meter wave fire control radar. Light weight compared to some other systems such as the one of Ka-50 or the Mi-28N, uses a single antenna similar to the AN/APG-78 used for AH-64D Apache. Also there is a mast mounted optronics FCS tested aboard Z-9 that might come in with Z-10 as well in future.
> 
> *So yes, overall, it have a pretty decent avionic and sensor suite. *


Thank you so much for your kind info


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## imtiaz nabi

Actually i was talking about the helmet mounted systems as well as is it able to carry AESA radar?


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## Donatello

Arsalan said:


> Surely it have advance sensors, it is an attack helicopter. What sensors are you actually pointing to?
> 
> It have HOTAS control system, the first Chinese helicopter with that capability. The helicopter is built to Chinese GJV289A standard, the Chinese equivalent of MIL-STD-1553B enabling rapid deployment of western systems after addition of a single module or interface.
> 
> A radar incorporating ground mapping, terrain-avoidance, and terrain-following radar capabilities
> 
> It have a pretty decent YH-96 EW suite that integrates the radar, radar warning receivers, laser warning recivers, electronic support measures and ECM together. Plus there is the ability to carry a wide range of navigational/targeting/protection and jamming PODs.
> 
> The Z-10 have a primary optronics FCS with TV camera, night vision and thermal imaging camera, the Chinese call it Airborne Stabilized Aiming System. The latest version has a laser ranger / designator for semi-active laser guided missiles such as HJ-10. A further development incorporates a laser ranging / targeting system that can perform all of the functions previously handled by separate system. *All this is compatible with pilot’s HMS.*
> 
> About the radar, yes there is a Milli-meter wave fire control radar. Light weight compared to some other systems such as the one of Ka-50 or the Mi-28N, uses a single antenna similar to the AN/APG-78 used for AH-64D Apache. Also there is a mast mounted optronics FCS tested aboard Z-9 that might come in with Z-10 as well in future.
> 
> *So yes, overall, it have a pretty decent avionic and sensor suite. *



Pretty decent? I'd say it is killer combo....because take a look at how long the Russians and Americans/Europeans have been building helicopters and how long has it been since China started?
The best part about such weapon systems from China is that, unlike Europe/America based products, Pakistan can benefit from the continuous advancement of the technology and tailor things like it wants. If Chinese are builing Z-10s today, imagine what they'll have in 10 years....20 years.


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## Zarvan

5


Donatello said:


> Pretty decent? I'd say it is killer combo....because take a look at how long the Russians and Americans/Europeans have been building helicopters and how long has it been since China started?
> The best part about such weapon systems from China is that, unlike Europe/America based products, Pakistan can benefit from the continuous advancement of the technology and tailor things like it wants. If Chinese are builing Z-10s today, imagine what they'll have in 10 years....20 years.


WZ-10 specially with most recent upgrades which China did and are part of the latest squadron of WZ-10 which China got include new engine and other upgrades have made it as dangerous and capable as Apache

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## Arsalan

imtiaz nabi said:


> Actually i was talking about the helmet mounted systems as well as is it able to carry AESA radar?


HMS is a Yes,
AESA Radar is a NO for now! 



Donatello said:


> Pretty decent? I'd say it is killer combo....because take a look at how long the Russians and Americans/Europeans have been building helicopters and how long has it been since China started?
> The best part about such weapon systems from China is that, unlike Europe/America based products, Pakistan can benefit from the continuous advancement of the technology and tailor things like it wants. If Chinese are building Z-10s today, imagine what they'll have in 10 years....20 years.


I would say pretty decent based on the fact that even though these systems look comparable with the latest tech on Apache or Ka-50 however this is yet to be put through its paces. Once the systems see actual hostile environment operations and they are tested and proven on battlefield, they surely are/will be a killer combination.


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should slowly keep increasing WZ-10 numbers in its arsenal and Pakistan should get WZ-10 with wz16 engine and the other upgrades which were done in WZ-10 recently by China. With this engine and other up grades it pretty much matches Apache in performance. I don't know about manufacturing but for sure we need to develop full maintenance sight in Pakistan for our helicopters fleet. These helicopters along with massive artillery and MRL will be our backbone to counter India's cold start doctrine



No it does not match the apache but mangusta and rioovaak (spell check Pl )


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> No it does not match the apache but mangusta and rioovaak (spell check Pl )


@Horus says it would match Apache with wz16 engine and other recent upgrades done by China


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> No it does not match the apache but mangusta and rioovaak (spell check Pl )


Avionics and weapon package wise it is on par with the Apache specially once the new WZ16 engine comes in. The are in same weight class and i suppose do have on par protective armor. One thing that do make Apache surpass the Z-10 is the actual battle experience. They have tested there systems and upgraded/improved them based on feedback from actual war scenario. Z-10 will need time and experience to achieve that. T-129 hand is light weight attack helicopter with empty weight almost half as that of an Apache or Z-10. The Rooivalk lacks a MMW-FCS.


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## fatman17

the Chinese themselves claim that the Z-10 is inferior to the AH64 while the Z10 matches the capabilities of most other attack helos. we have to compare what is available not future upgrades. remember the US also keeps upgrading the AH64.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

From what point of view , one can say that its inferior


If you have 14 Soldiers on ground , and then this beast comes infront of them armed with rockets , missiles and machine gun ....





What choice do the troops on ground have ...

So , how can it be inferior


If we had serial production of these units , we can properly safe guard military on ground with support from air


Its highly unlikely that the Apache will go 1 vs 1 with Z10 , they choppers most fear aniti gunship missiles from ground the most. 

But in term of fire power the Z-10 also has air-air missiles and its pretty equal the chances which copter would win Apache or Z-10


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## aziqbal

It's Z-10 not WZ-10 which is a engine 

Z-10 is not equal to Apache , Apache can carry 16 x ATGM 

And the new Guardian has Link 16, AWACS integration and can control a UAV 

Chinese attack helo is best for PA just don't compare with AH-64

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## Quwa

AH-64 is the exception, the WZ-10 would be sufficient for the vast majority of modern armies in need of attack helicopters. I just hope PAA is able to procure a sizable number of them over the long-term. I also hope Pakistan begins producing an AGM similar in concept to Hellfire.

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## RAMPAGE

aziqbal said:


> It's Z-10 not WZ-10 which is a engine
> 
> Z-10 is not equal to Apache , Apache can carry 16 x ATGM
> 
> And the new Guardian has Link 16, AWACS integration and can control a UAV
> 
> Chinese attack helo is best for PA just don't compare with AH-64


It will be able to carry 16 x HJ 10 with WZ16.


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## nomi007

*Tonight With Fareeha (Army Aviation Ke Sath Operation Zarb e Azb Ke Hawale Se Khususi Program..!) – 7th September 2015*

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## Stealth

She bechare dont know about the meaning of Advance  these are obsolete cobra's just Jordian F has something you can say Advance woh b in some perspective but RIP and always laughing when Media and these journalists go for Military related programs

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## fatman17

MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
18:02 08.09.2015

China unveiled an export version of its light Z-19 assault chopper several days before the start of the 2015 China International Helicopter Exposition.

© SPUTNIK/ PAVEL LISITSYN

Super Weapon: China Reveals Deadly New Armor-Piercing Gun

The helicopter can provide offensive air support and destroy the armored vehicles of any potential enemy with its “air-to-surface” armament including anti-tank missiles, a 23mm cannon and other weapons. It also has gun pods and can carry air-to-air missiles, and its tandem-seated cockpit is armored.
The aircraft can carry out reconnaissance missions as well.

In contrast with its basic version, the new chopper features modernized systems protecting it from the enemy’s air defense, and it sports new avionics.

Furthermore, its maker Harbin Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation (HAMC) announced that the Z-19E received a stealth technology that decreases the helicopter’s observability to foes.

China’s light attack helicopter, Z-19E
The helicopter’s thrust and rotor systems, as well as tail, are the same as the Harbin Z-19 – its basic version.



Read more: Small but Deadly: China Presents Z-19E Attack Helicopter


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## fatman17

50 year's on Bell Cobra still going strong. 

BY TERRY EVANS


Many people will go about their lives on Labor Day unaware that it’s the golden anniversary of the first flight of an aircraft that played a huge role in the Vietnam War.

“The Cobra saved hundreds if not thousands of lives in Vietnam by flying as an escort to Hueys,” said Mike Folse, 81, of Denton.

Folse, a Bell Helicopter engineer from 1954 to 1971, said he designed the Bell AH-1 Cobra in an act of desperation. After Bell lost a contract to Lockheed for production of an attack helicopter, Folse said he started working on a conceptual sketch of a new warbird.

Less than six months later, the Cobra prototype, known as Model 209, made its maiden flight at Fort Worth’s Amon Carter field, launching a new breed of military helicopters.

“The early flights were sprinkled with visits from high-ranking military officers, and they all wanted a ride in the Cobra,” said Gene Colvin, 79, of Fort Worth, who was a Cobra test pilot during its development. “Their enthusiasm for what the aircraft would do over and above the old Huey made the Cobra the first helicopter weapons platform that was designed as a fighter from the ground up.”

Folse said that 80 percent of the Cobra — its engine, transmission, tail boom and tail rotor, as well as its main rotor — came from the UH-1C Huey. Having so many parts already in U.S. government inventories made the process easier, Folse said.

The resulting design became the blueprint for virtually every attack helicopter that followed.


IT WAS THE TRAILBLAZER FOR WHAT WE HAVE IN THE ATTACK HELICOPTERS.

Mike Miller, 61, a Cobra pilot

“Without the Cobra, you wouldn’t have the Apache, the European Tiger, the Italians’ Mangusta,” said Mike Miller, 61, who flew Cobras along the East German border during the Cold War. “It was the trailblazer for what we have in the attack helicopters.”

Big change from Hueys

And it was a game changer when the Cobra was introduced in Vietnam, said Tilden “Mike” Mikel, 68, who flew for the 128th Assault Helicopter Company in 1970 and ’71. Enemy weapons had knocked a slew of Hueys out of the air, because they were slow and relatively poorly armed, Mikel said.

“We got Cobras halfway through my second tour,” Mikel said. “We could provide more support to the ground troops, and more suppressing fire for the Hueys. It carried more rockets and had a 40 mm grenade launcher and turret on the front with a minigun.”

The triggerman on the Cobra’s weapons sat in front of its pilot, and both had better perspective than the Huey afforded them, Miller said.

“When you went from the Huey to the Cobra you had a lot more visibility for the gunner and the pilot,” Miller said. “With the tandem seat design and improved visibility, that’s what you’ve seen perpetuated in attack helicopters since.”

If there is a downside to the Cobra, it’s the cockpit width, Mikel said.

“They made the fuselage 36 inches wide because that’s how wide the door was on the room where they assembled it,” Mikel said. “The hardest part of the mission was getting out of the cockpit when you were done.”

Used by Marines today

Bell made about 1,100 Cobras, said Andy Woodward, 44, a Bell Helicopter communications manager. Even now, the bird itself looks much the same as Folse’s original drawing. With each iteration, it has become more and more effective as a versatile tank-killer.

“We transitioned into an ECAS — enhanced Cobra armament system — with an air data sensor and laser feeding data into our ballistic solutions,” Miller said. “That means you hit what you’re aiming at. Our tactics changed as well. Where in Vietnam there was a lot of diving and firing rockets, in the Cold War we basically used the terrain as cover and sat back in a hover and shot our targets.”

The Marine Corps is the only military group still flying Cobras, and there’s a good reason for that, said 1st. Lt Maida Kalić, public affairs officer for the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force, 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing.

“No aircraft defines the role of close air support better than the Marine AH-1 Super Cobra/Viper,” Kalić said in an email. “Whether it's providing cover for advancing ground forces or escorting assault support helicopters en route to a landing zone, the AH-1Z is called on when Marines need firepower from the air.”

‘I love talking about the Cobra’

Kalić said today’s Cobra can fire multiple missiles, rockets and 20 mm cannon fire against targets that are otherwise inaccessible and “has played a major role in every U.S. military conflict since Vietnam. Today it continues to provide the precision, armament and tactical situational awareness to fight in close proximity with our Marines below.”

With “enhanced navigation displays that distinguish friends from enemies, data transfer systems that deliver real-time aerial reconnaissance to Marines on the ground and composite rotor blades and tail booms that can withstand 23 mm cannon fire, the Marine AH-1 is the perfect example of why Marine Aviation has been called ‘flying artillery,’” Kalić wrote.

There will be no ceremony marking the 50th anniversary of the Cobra’s first flight, Woodward said.

“We’ll note it on our website and send out a news release,” he said.

Folse said he won’t be doing anything special on Labor Day, either. He’s OK with that. He gets plenty of opportunities to recognize his greatest accomplishment with invitations to speak at such places as the Museum of Flight at Love Field and the American Helicopter Museum in West Chester, Pa.

“I love talking about the Cobra,” Folse said. “It was so simple I don’t know why someone else didn’t think of it.”


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## fatman17

Z19 light attack helicopter


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## razgriz19



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## fatman17

Z10 testing continues. ....

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## fatman17

Sino-Pakistani exercise Warrior III

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## hassan1



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## Imran Khan

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 258188
> View attachment 258189
> View attachment 258190
> View attachment 258191
> View attachment 258192


when this was happen any info?



fatman17 said:


> Z10 testing continues. ....


boss its pakistan ?


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## Bossman

Imran Khan said:


> when this was happen any info?
> 
> ?



Looks like Kharien


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## fatman17

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 258188
> View attachment 258189
> View attachment 258190
> View attachment 258191
> View attachment 258192



looks like army fennec crash landing.


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> when this was happen any info?
> 
> 
> boss its pakistan ?



army fennec crash landing.



shaheenmissile said:


> Fennec is a new helicopter Looks like in a crisis situation our boys get jelly legs. Pretty low quality performance.



what crisis.


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## shaheenmissile

fatman17 said:


> what crisis.


Yesterday's terrorist attack.


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## Maarkhoor

I think fennec is the least capable helo in Pakistan inventory.


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## fatman17

shaheenmissile said:


> Yesterday's terrorist attack.



don't care much for your asinine comment. put yourself in their shoes and lets see who gets jelly legs.

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## airbus101

fatman17 said:


> looks like army fennec crash landing.


Sir look at this post before posting negative rating
Army helicopter crash lands during rescue - thenews.com.pk


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## nomi007

@ *fatman17 *

*is this helo is repairable*
*







*


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## ACE OF THE AIR

nomi007 said:


> @ *fatman17 *
> 
> *is this helo is repairable*
> *
> View attachment 258503
> View attachment 258504
> *


No...


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## Sulman Badshah

Abu Namr said:


> least capable helo in Pakistan inventory.


It is the one of most capable Heli right now .. they are new and currently being only capable utility helicopters which can be operated in high altitude and siachin region ... They are life line for our soldiers up there ...



nomi007 said:


> is this helo is repairable


might be .. systems and engine looks good ... Airframe will cost us

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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> No...



It's a write off. Will be used to salvage spares

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## nomi007



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## nomi007




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## niaz

Abu Namr said:


> I think fennec is the least capable helo in Pakistan inventory.



Fennec AS550 is a “LIGHT” helicopter: its main strength is that it can climb up to 23,000 ft. Don’t think many helicopters can claim this. For example Mil 8/17 family service ceiling is about 15,000 ft. AH-1Z only works up to 20,000 ft. whereas Pumas can only climb up to 15,000.

Let not put down a perfectly good helicopter. It is very good for high altitude work (Siachin)

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## Sulman Badshah

niaz said:


> AH-1Z only works up to 20,000 ft.



helicopters can go a little bit than their permitted service ceiling ... 

20000 feet is a good altitude for a modern helicopter ... in siachen most of the soldiers lives on lower positions .. only few give duty more than 20000 feet ...

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## Maarkhoor

niaz said:


> Fennec AS550 is a “LIGHT” helicopter: its main strength is that it can climb up to 23,000 ft. Don’t think many helicopters can claim this. For example Mil 8/17 family service ceiling is about 15,000 ft. AH-1Z only works up to 20,000 ft. whereas Pumas can only climb up to 15,000.
> 
> Let not put down a perfectly good helicopter. It is very good for high altitude work (Siachin)


Bro thanks i am ignorant of this point thank u for letting me know.


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## Sulman Badshah

PAA Armed EC 550 Fennec along with Mi 17

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## LegionnairE

nomi007 said:


> @ *fatman17 *
> 
> *is this helo is repairable*
> *
> View attachment 258503
> View attachment 258504
> *


engine compartment seems salvageable ... so at least there's that


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## Jango

LegionnairE said:


> engine compartment seems salvageable ... so at least there's that



You do not know anything about the engine compartment from that picture.

There is evidence that the rotor blades struck the ground and came to an abrupt halt at some point....this itself serves to absolutely RUIN the transmission, and the interlinked engine shafts.


----------



## LegionnairE

Jango said:


> You do not know anything about the engine compartment from that picture.
> 
> There is evidence that the rotor blades struck the ground and came to an abrupt halt at some point....this itself serves to absolutely RUIN the transmission, and the interlinked engine shafts.


I'm not sure about that... there should be some stress on the transmission that is undeniable but how much of the impact force was carried through. I don't know

since rotors absorbed some of the force by breaking 

but yeah something might have gone wrong, a cog or two might have been broken


----------



## Inception-06

Sulman Badshah said:


> PAA Armed EC 550 Fennec along with Mi 17
> 
> View attachment 262503




The whole Pakistan Mi8 and Mi-17 Fleet should be armed with board machine gun for self defence, when the Helicopter enters the red zone it is a sitting duck !


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## Jango

LegionnairE said:


> I'm not sure about that... there should be some stress on the transmission that is undeniable but how much of the impact force was carried through. I don't know
> 
> since rotors absorbed some of the force by breaking
> 
> but yeah something might have gone wrong, a cog or two might have been broken



Case in point...

Russian Mi-8 Take off from water - YouTube

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## LegionnairE

Jango said:


> Case in point...
> 
> Russian Mi-8 Take off from water - YouTube


I don't have x-ray vision  I don't know if they were able to salvage the engine(s) from that or not, to me it seems probable


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## Jango

LegionnairE said:


> I don't have x-ray vision  I don't know if they were able to salvage the engine(s) from that or not, to me it seems probable



No, they were not able to salvage the engine from that. 

I don't think you have an engineering background....am I correct?


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## LegionnairE

Jango said:


> No, they were not able to salvage the engine from that.
> 
> I don't think you have an engineering background....am I correct?


no... do you?

besides may I ask how did you acquire that information? that they were not?


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## Inception-06

Jango said:


> Case in point...
> 
> Russian Mi-8 Take off from water - YouTube



Pakistan Army is underestimating the purpose of a door guns !

The Door gun provide high suppression machine gun fire at the landing zone, it covers the troops, not to mention the chopper itself, while they jumping out and extremely vulnerable. Possibly also some strafing fire on a given area as the chopper fly circles around the target.

Door gunner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


please check this my friend

http://media.dma.mil/2014/Apr/28/2000793198/-1/-1/0/140313-F-XT249-348.JPG


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## Jango

LegionnairE said:


> no... do you?
> 
> besides may I ask how did you acquire that information? that they were not?



Yes I do, and specifically in this field.

As for the information about the engine, we all work on deductive reasoning. Circumstantial evidence.

1- The final cause of the crash was attributed to *engine failure *and insufficient training on part of the pilot. The first impact (due to rapid descent) and subsequent coning of the rotor blades in evidence of the fact. And this was also stated by Russian officials.

2- After initial impact, pilot tries to take off ASAP as is SOP and tries to gain forward motion first before attempting OEI takeoff. But IMO he applies too much pitch early on without enough collective, gets caught up in the swell and then sadly crashes. (This is what I infer from the video).

3- The engine was then taken apart and examined for signs of failure, fatigue, stresses, cracks and such. You do not put back a failed engine or even a working engine from such a catastrophic crash. The internal transmission and also the shaft mechanisms would be torn to shreds (as is seen in the video regarding the tail boom, look at how it practically explodes!).

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## Inception-06

Jango said:


> Yes I do, and specifically in this field.
> 
> As for the information about the engine, we all work on deductive reasoning. Circumstantial evidence.
> 
> 1- The final cause of the crash was attributed to *engine failure *and insufficient training on part of the pilot. The first impact (due to rapid descent) and subsequent coning of the rotor blades in evidence of the fact. And this was also stated by Russian officials.
> 
> 2- After initial impact, pilot tries to take off ASAP as is SOP and tries to gain forward motion first before attempting OEI takeoff. But IMO he applies too much pitch early on without enough collective, gets caught up in the swell and then sadly crashes. (This is what I infer from the video).
> 
> 3- The engine was then taken apart and examined for signs of failure, fatigue, stresses, cracks and such. You do not put back a failed engine or even a working engine from such a catastrophic crash. The internal transmission and also the shaft mechanisms would be torn to shreds (as is seen in the video regarding the tail boom, look at how it practically explodes!).




Whats your opinion about Door Guns for the Pakistani Mi-8 and Mi-17 ?


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## Jango

Ulla said:


> Whats your opinion about Door Guns for the Pakistani Mi-8 and Mi-17 ?



Well first up, Pakistan has only Mi-17's at this moment, no Mi-8's, unless you include Mi-8MT in that.

As for the door guns, they should be employed for missions in which evac or troop insertion is involved, I don't see the harm in it. But the planners know best!


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## LegionnairE

Jango said:


> Yes I do, and specifically in this field.
> 
> As for the information about the engine, we all work on deductive reasoning. Circumstantial evidence.
> 
> 1- The final cause of the crash was attributed to *engine failure *and insufficient training on part of the pilot. The first impact (due to rapid descent) and subsequent coning of the rotor blades in evidence of the fact. And this was also stated by Russian officials.
> 
> 2- After initial impact, pilot tries to take off ASAP as is SOP and tries to gain forward motion first before attempting OEI takeoff. But IMO he applies too much pitch early on without enough collective, gets caught up in the swell and then sadly crashes. (This is what I infer from the video).
> 
> 3- The engine was then taken apart and examined for signs of failure, fatigue, stresses, cracks and such. You do not put back a failed engine or even a working engine from such a catastrophic crash. The internal transmission and also the shaft mechanisms would be torn to shreds (as is seen in the video regarding the tail boom, look at how it practically explodes!).


huh... thanks for the info

remember those old steam ships with paddle wheels? those wheels would be made of wood intentionally so that they would BREAK if they collided with something so that the engine would be preserved... but they had many paddlewheels so breaking one of them was acceptable they could repair those paddle wheels easily too.

Today I've learned that helicopters aren't made with that logic 
so... either the rotors are stronger than I thought or the internal engine parts are weaker 

it should be even more so on helicopters like AH64 where they made the rotors srong enough to withstand small arms fire up to 12.7mm


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

note the triple air filters in front of engine intakes.





just a nice pic

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## fatman17

beginnings of Army Aviation 1947

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic.










Armys light Helo Trainer

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## hassan1



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## fatman17

Civilian Bell 412

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## SSG commandos

good video 






pak airforce song 






counter attack of pak army

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## hassan1



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## fatman17

Earthquake support mission starts

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## Sulman Badshah



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## milen

It gives in depth information. Thanks for this valuable information for all


----------



## Signalian

Alouette III and Llama are still in service, damn,need to be replaced. 

Z-9 is a good option.

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## Windjammer

A well captured click.

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## hassan1



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## Sulman Badshah

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 270317


nice click


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## khanasifm

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 270317




where is this pic from? china or Pak?

Multi sensor (TV, IR etc) turret/pod pus millimeter wave radar in the nose (looks like ????)


http://static.progressivemediagroup.com/uploads/imagelibrary/Z10_attack_helicopter_army.jpg
Vs.
http://carrolltrustcase.com/wp-cont...export-pakitan-missile-hj10-atgm-rocket-1.jpg


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## PakCan

Anyone got update on these helicopters? How are they performing, is PAA satisfied with the chopper?


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## muhammadali233

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 267852


ah-1z? or ah-1f?


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## Sulman Badshah

muhammadali233 said:


> ah-1z? or ah-1f?


ah1f

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## muhammadali233

razgriz19 said:


> probably, but they are not coming anytime soon!
> PA didn't even order it yet as they are not for sale rite now but will be around 2014-2015.


Your Predications (Y)


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## SSG commandos



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## Sulman Badshah

*Bell AH-1Z Viper – USA*
NOVEMBER 12, 2015 ~ NONOTHAI






The *Bell AH-1Z Viper*is a twin-engine attack helicopter based on the AH-1W SuperCobra, that was developed for theUnited States Marine Corps (USMC). The AH-1Z features a four-blade, bearingless, composite main rotor system, uprated transmission, and a new target sighting system. The AH-1Z is part of the H-1 upgrade program. It is also called “Zulu Cobra” in reference to its variant letter.






The AH-1Z incorporates new rotor technology with upgraded military avionics, weapons systems, and electro-optical sensors in an integrated weapons platform. It has improved survivability and can find targets at longer ranges and attack them with precision weapons.






*Bearingless, hingeless rotor system*
The AH-1Z’s new bearingless, hingeless rotor system has 75% fewer parts than that of four-bladed articulated systems. The blades are made of composites, which have an increased ballistic survivability, and there is a semiautomatic folding system for storage aboard amphibious assault ships. Its two redesigned wing stubs are longer, with each adding a wing-tip station for a missile such as the AIM-9 Sidewinder. Each wing has two other stations for 2.75-inch (70 mm) Hydra 70 rocket pods, or AGM-114 Hellfire quad missile launchers. The AN/APG-78 Longbow fire control radar can also be mounted on a wing tip station.






*20 mm (0.787 in) M197 3-barreled Gatling cannon in the A/A49E-7 turret*





*AGM-114 Hellfire quad missile launchers and 2.75-inch (70 mm) Hydra 70 rocket pods*





*Wing-tip station for a missile such as the AIM-9 Sidewinder (air-to-air) above or AN/APG-78 Longbow fire control radar below*





The Z-model’s integrated avionics system (IAS) has been developed by Northrop Grumman. The system includes two mission computers and an automatic flight control system. Each crew station has two 8×6-inch multifunction liquid crystal displays (LCD) and one 4.2×4.2-inch dual function LCD display. The communications suite combines a US Navy RT-1824 integrated radio, UHF/VHF, COMSEC and modem in a single unit. The navigation suite includes an embedded GPS inertial navigation system (EGI), a digital map system and Meggitt’s low-airspeed air data subsystem, which allows weapons delivery when hovering.





Source: AH-1Z Viper, 1000 Hellfire II Missiles approved for sale to Pakistan. | Page 55

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## Sulman Badshah

*Front seat*






*Rear seat*





The crew are equipped with the Thales “Top Owl” helmet-mounted sight and display system. The Top Owl has a 24-hour day/night capability and a binocular display with a 40° field of view. Its visor projection providesforward looking infrared (FLIR) or video imagery. The AH-1Z has survivability equipment including the Hover Infrared Suppression System (HIRSS) to cover engine exhausts, countermeasure dispensers, radar warning, incoming/on-way missile warning, and on-fuselage laser spot warning systems.






*Thales “Top Owl” helmet-mounted sight and display system*





*Hover Infrared Suppression System (HIRSS) to cover engine exhausts*
The Lockheed Martin target sight system (TSS) incorporates a third-generation FLIR sensor. The TSS provides target sighting in day, night, or adverse weather conditions. The system has various view modes and can track with FLIR or by TV. The same system is also used on the UH-1Y Venomand the KC-130JHarvest HAWK.






*Lockheed Martin target sight system (TSS) incorporates a third-generation FLIR sensor*





*Avionics bay*


*Operators*



Pakistan

Pakistan Army (15 on order)




United States

United States Marine Corps


Source: AH-1Z Viper, 1000 Hellfire II Missiles approved for sale to Pakistan. | Page 55

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## Sulman Badshah

*Specifications (AH-1Z)*



_Data from_ Bell Specifications, The International Directory of Military Aircraft, 2002–2003, Modern Battlefield Warplanes
*General characteristics*


*Crew:* 2: pilot, co-pilot/gunner (CPG)
*Capacity:* 6,661 lb (3,021 kg)
*Length:* 58 ft 3 in (17.8 m)
*Rotor diameter:* 48 ft (14.6 m)
*Height:* 14 ft 4 in (4.37 m)
*Disc area:* 1,808 ft² (168.0 m²)
*Empty weight:* 12,300 lb (5,580 kg)
*Useful load:* 5,764 lb (2,620 kg)
*Max. takeoff weight:* 18,500 lb (8,390 kg)
*Powerplant:*
*Rotor systems:* 4 blades on main rotor, 4 blades on tail rotor
*Performance*


*Never exceed speed:* 222 knots (255 mph, 411 km/h) in a dive
*Cruise speed:* 160 kn (184 mph, 296 km/h)
*Range:* 370 nmi (426 mi, 685 km)
*Combat radius:* 125 nmi (144 mi, 231 km) with 2,500 lb (1,130 kg) payload
*Service ceiling:* 20,000+ ft (6,000+ m)
*Rate of climb:* 2,790 ft/min (14.2 m/s)
*Armament*


*Guns:* 1 × 20 mm (0.787 in) M197 3-barreled Gatling cannon in the A/A49E-7 turret (750 round ammo capacity)
*Hardpoints:* Up to 6 pylon stations on stub wing
*Rockets:* 2.75 in (70 mm) Hydra 70 or APKWS II rockets – Mounted in LAU-68C/A (7 shot) or LAU-61D/A (19 shot) launchers
*Missiles:*
AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles – 1 mounted on each wing tip station (total of 2)
AGM-114 Hellfire air-to-surface missiles – Up to 16 missiles mounted in four 4-round M272 missile launchers, two on each wing







*2 × General Electric T700-GE-401C turboshaft, 1,800 shp (1,340 kW) each*





*20 mm (0.787 in) M197 3-barreled Gatling cannon*





*Hydra 70 rockets above or APKWS II rockets below*










*AGM-114 Hellfire air-to-surface missiles (Anti-armor) 500m to 8km at Mach 1.3*










Source: AH-1Z Viper, 1000 Hellfire II Missiles approved for sale to Pakistan. | Page 55

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## nomi007

at dubai

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## Arsalan

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 271970
> 
> at dubai


Every time i see them looking at this helicopter, i fear the do not select this one. I know we wont have funds to go for two different attack helicopters and this as the main front line gunship is not good enough! Need some real dedicated attack helicopters like Z-10 or T-129 or AH-1Z gunships. Not another part timer! Buying this, we will need more funds to buy some other heavier gunship and with AH-1Z, AH-1F, Mi-35already in the picture, getting TWO more different platforms wont make much sense!

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## Quwa

Arsalan said:


> Every time i see them looking at this helicopter, i fear the do not select this one. I know we wont have funds to go for two different attack helicopters and this as the main front line gunship is not good enough! Need some real dedicated attack helicopters like Z-10 or T-129 or AH-1Z gunships. Not another part timer! Buying this, we will need more funds to buy some other heavier gunship and with AH-1Z, AH-1F, Mi-35already in the picture, getting TWO more different platforms wont make much sense!


I imagine they'd look at the Z-19 in the same vein as the current AH-1s in service. Yes, the Z-19 isn't as large or capable as Z-10 and AH-1Z, but one could argue that it would be a suitable 1:1 successor to the AH-1F/S.

I don't think the PAA is interested in Z-19; remember, the Z-19 has been in the development pipeline for years, but the PAA picked up 3 Z-10 for testing, not Z-19.

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## fatman17

*Pakistan reportedly completed test mission on China's Z-10 attack helicopter*

The first Z-10 attack helicopter provided by China to Pakistan has completed its test mission over Rawalpindi, according to unconfirmed reports. The development was posted by micro bloggers in the New York based Chinese language website, Douwei News, said today April 7 Indian website The Times of India.





*CAIC Z-10/WZ-10 " Fierce Thunderbolt" attack helicopter*


The move comes soon after Pakistan launched its Shaheen 3 IRBM ballistic missile last month. Its technology is believed to have been supplied by China because "_Pakistan does not have the industrial infrastructure to do it themselves_" a military website said.
"_China was the most likely donor and China would do this largely because Pakistani ballistic missiles aimed at India make Indian anti-missile defenses less effective against Chinese ballistic missiles,_" the US website, Strategy Page, said.
Pakistan is believed to have chosen China's *Z-10* after considering another next-generation attack helicopter, Turkey's A-129, as it wants to replace its obsolete AH-1S Cobras purchased from the United States in the 1980s.

published by Helios in 2014 in the book *‘From Fabric Wings . . . A History of Military Aviation on both sides of the Northwest Frontier’.*

has anybody read this book






should be an interesting read .....

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## Arsalan

Saqr said:


> I imagine they'd look at the Z-19 in the same vein as the current AH-1s in service. Yes, the Z-19 isn't as large or capable as Z-10 and AH-1Z, but one could argue that it would be a suitable 1:1 successor to the AH-1F/S.
> 
> I don't think the PAA is interested in Z-19; remember, the Z-19 has been in the development pipeline for years, but the PAA picked up 3 Z-10 for testing, not Z-19.


Well my point is we may not be able to buy Z-19 together with More AH-1Zm Z-10 or T-129 (which ever is finalized) and i do not want PPA to end with with Z-19 alone with a very few or none of the better true attack helicopters like the Zulu, Viper, T-129 or Z-10.



fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan reportedly completed test mission on China's Z-10 attack helicopter*
> 
> The first Z-10 attack helicopter provided by China to Pakistan has completed its test mission over Rawalpindi, according to unconfirmed reports. The development was posted by micro bloggers in the New York based Chinese language website, Douwei News, said today April 7 Indian website The Times of India.
> 
> View attachment 272479
> 
> *CAIC Z-10/WZ-10 " Fierce Thunderbolt" attack helicopter*
> 
> 
> The move comes soon after Pakistan launched its Shaheen 3 IRBM ballistic missile last month. Its technology is believed to have been supplied by China because "_Pakistan does not have the industrial infrastructure to do it themselves_" a military website said.
> "_China was the most likely donor and China would do this largely because Pakistani ballistic missiles aimed at India make Indian anti-missile defenses less effective against Chinese ballistic missiles,_" the US website, Strategy Page, said.
> Pakistan is believed to have chosen China's *Z-10* after considering another next-generation attack helicopter, Turkey's A-129, as it wants to replace its obsolete AH-1S Cobras purchased from the United States in the 1980s.
> 
> published by Helios in 2014 in the book *‘From Fabric Wings . . . A History of Military Aviation on both sides of the Northwest Frontier’.*
> 
> has anybody read this book
> 
> View attachment 272490
> 
> 
> should be an interesting read .....





fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan reportedly completed test mission on China's Z-10 attack helicopter*
> 
> The first Z-10 attack helicopter provided by China to Pakistan has completed its test mission over Rawalpindi, according to unconfirmed reports. The development was posted by micro bloggers in the New York based Chinese language website, Douwei News, said today April 7 Indian website The Times of India.
> 
> View attachment 272479
> 
> *CAIC Z-10/WZ-10 " Fierce Thunderbolt" attack helicopter*
> 
> 
> The move comes soon after Pakistan launched its Shaheen 3 IRBM ballistic missile last month. Its technology is believed to have been supplied by China because "_Pakistan does not have the industrial infrastructure to do it themselves_" a military website said.
> "_China was the most likely donor and China would do this largely because Pakistani ballistic missiles aimed at India make Indian anti-missile defenses less effective against Chinese ballistic missiles,_" the US website, Strategy Page, said.
> Pakistan is believed to have chosen China's *Z-10* after considering another next-generation attack helicopter, Turkey's A-129, as it wants to replace its obsolete AH-1S Cobras purchased from the United States in the 1980s.
> 
> published by Helios in 2014 in the book *‘From Fabric Wings . . . A History of Military Aviation on both sides of the Northwest Frontier’.*
> 
> has anybody read this book
> 
> View attachment 272490
> 
> 
> should be an interesting read .....


Sir the test were conducted in Mar 2014 right? how was all that in 2014 published book?
Or am i missing something here?


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> Well my point is we may not be able to buy Z-19 together with More AH-1Zm Z-10 or T-129 (which ever is finalized) and i do not want PPA to end with with Z-19 alone with a very few or none of the better true attack helicopters like the Zulu, Viper, T-129 or Z-10.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir the test were conducted in Mar 2014 right? how was all that in 2014 published book?
> Or am i missing something here?



Not related the posts got merged somehow

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Not related the posts got merged somehow


that explains it! 
Thanks! 
Now lets wait and see what comes out of these Z10 trails. They do look excellent choice on paper and i am quite confident PAA wont make a hasty decision, they need to be satisfied with this helicopter if we are to see numbers being inducted for front line duties. They will complement the AH-1Z Cobra gunships in an excellent way. Also i suppose if we have some funds and can get some more Mi-35 finalized and delivered for SSG, the PAA attack/assault army will be taken care of for quite a few years to come.


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## fatman17

Army aids train derailment near Quetta

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## fatman17

The train came downhill and lost its brakes

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## fatman17

Bell in action

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## fatman17

Z10

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## fatman17

Sindh govt helo

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## Max Pain

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 270317


still in Dhimiyal Air Base?


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## In arduis fidelis

Max Pain said:


> still in Dhimiyal Air Base?


In Gujranwala last i heard. Onboard systems being converted to english for final handing taking.

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## fatman17

Rafay Jamil said:


> In Gujranwala last i heard. Onboard systems being converted to english for final handing taking.



That's a big issue with Chinese weapons

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## Arron Bert

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 273208
> 
> Z10



I don't remember but I think about 20 Z1-0As will be coming to guard the Balochistan CPEC with 20 Z1-0Bs coming in near future too.


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## fatman17

Arron Bert said:


> I don't remember but I think about 20 Z1-0As will be coming to guard the Balochistan CPEC with 20 Z1-0Bs coming in near future too.



Doubt it very much

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## Windjammer

*
PAA Put up a display in Gujranwala.
*

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## monitor

Windjammer said:


> *PAA Put up a display in Gujranwala.
> *


I am not seeing anything.


----------



## Slides

fatman17 said:


> Doubt it very much



Why do you doubt it? PAA has been impressed with the Z-10.


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## fatman17

The numbers you are quoting and the role you are predicting.


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## fatman17

Contracts and Key Events


Unless otherwise noted, orders are issued by the U.S. Army Contracting Command at Redstone Arsenal, AL, to Hellfire Systems, LLC in Orlando, FL – a Lockheed Martin/ Boeing joint venture.

December 09/15: Lockheed Martin has been awarded a $318.3 million modification to a foreign military salescontract . The deal is to provide Hellfire II missile hardware/component production for South Korea, Egypt, Pakistan, Iraq, India, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia and Indonesia, with completion expected by October 2018. Fiscal 2015 other procurement (Army) funds in the amount of $56,590,878 were obligated at the time of the award. The contract comes as US allies are rushing to increase stockpiles of cruise missiles and other military hardware which has had manufacturers struggling to fill orders.

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## Tipu7

Any updates regarding WZ10......???


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## Sulman Badshah

AS550 Fennec

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## Zarvan



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## Wolf

i came across an officer who was cobra gunship pilot. i asked him about z-10 and its effectiveness as compared to cobras. He mentioned that cobra gunship is better than z-10. He mentioned some issues such as temperature rising too early in z-10 i.e. it reaches 50 degrees right away when z-10 is started whereas in cobra it reaches 50 degrees after reasonable flight time plus maintenance issues.

It was a chance meeting and i could not talk to him more. I would like to know comments from experts regarding the pilot's observations and possibility of removal of any such issues in z-10 in near future.

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


>


this Date is for Hellfire only ... AH1Z will be received before that

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## Sulman Badshah

Found this on FB ...when it was happened

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## Khafee

Sulman Badshah said:


> Found this on FB ...when it was happened
> 
> 
> View attachment 279257
> View attachment 279258
> View attachment 279259


Bell 214?


----------



## In arduis fidelis

Sulman Badshah said:


> Found this on FB ...when it was happened
> 
> 
> View attachment 279257
> View attachment 279258
> View attachment 279259


Happened in Awaran Balouchistan the other day,technical fault occurred shortly after lift off,pilot and co pilot are safe.

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## fatman17

*Attrition*
*Pakistan Army Aviation Corps Bell 412EP*
December 13th, 2015 This Bell 412EP was involved in an accident in Awaran, Balochistan. All six crew members escaped with minor injuries.......



Sulman Badshah said:


> Found this on FB ...when it was happened
> 
> 
> View attachment 279257
> View attachment 279258
> View attachment 279259



wondering if this helo can be refurbished.

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## Maarkhoor

fatman17 said:


> *Attrition*
> *Pakistan Army Aviation Corps Bell 412EP*
> December 13th, 2015 This Bell 412EP was involved in an accident in Awaran, Balochistan. All six crew members escaped with minor injuries.......
> 
> 
> 
> wondering if this helo can be refurbished.


There is not much damage to air frame likely to be repaired.

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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> December 13th, 2015 This Bell 412EP was involved in an accident in Awaran


The same day FC balochistan hunted 13 extremist in Awaran and found huge cache of ammo

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## Negotiator

MaarKhoor said:


> There is not much damage to air frame likely to be repaired.


Once airframe is minutely damaged and heli is toppled then stresses make it beyond economical repair.

The most costly part is the MGB or main gear box....few countries of the world have metallurgy capabilities to manufacture that. Once rotors touch any thing the stresses of torque render the MGB useless....rotors themselves are replaceable but not the MGB as its joints with main frame cannot be rebuilt.

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## Maarkhoor

Negotiator said:


> Once airframe is minutely damaged and heli is toppled then stresses make it beyond economical repair.


OK kindly explain it further...
This can apply on Jet fighters but helos sorry i don't agree with you..


----------



## Negotiator

MaarKhoor said:


> OK kindly explain it further...
> This can apply on Jet fighters but helos sorry i don't agree with you..


Ok, the MGB transfers engine power from linear to rotation . means that approximately 30000RPM are reduced when these reach to rotors to approx 260- 280 RPM.....U can imagine the torque produced so there are enormous amount of rotational momentum created.......u try spinning while ur arms open at high speed and then tell some body to stick some thing in the way ....u will understand quiet well; therefore once rotors touch ground or some thing the small gears in MGB bear extreme torque which is then passed to the main frame through joints of MGB and main frame and usually heli is a total loss due to high Gs shock.

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## GoldenRatio1618

ohooo shukhur hy Pilots aor dosrey jawan bhai safe hain. yar koi apna plant bhi lagao aor achy helis banany ke liye bahut old ho chuky hain sub


----------



## Maarkhoor

Negotiator said:


> Ok, the MGB transfers engine power from linear to rotation . means that approximately 30000RPM are reduced when these reach to rotors to approx 260- 280 RPM.....U can imagine the torque produced so there are enormous amount of rotational momentum created.......u try spinning while ur arms open at high speed and then tell some body to stick some thing in the way ....u will understand quiet well; therefore once rotors touch ground or some thing the small gears in MGB bear extreme torque which is then passed to the main frame through joints of MGB and main frame and usually heli is a total loss due to high Gs shock.


I am expecting the same from you...U know who i am electrical eng Instrumentation..
Brother or sister this issue long back solved.. with the help of spring torque handler whenever rotors on extreme pressure or stop by force springe expanded and rotor blade gear separated from the main gear box..check it and then reply...


----------



## Negotiator

MaarKhoor said:


> I am expecting the same from you...U know who i am electrical eng Instrumentation..
> Brother or sister this issue long back solved.. with the help of spring torque handler whenever rotors on extreme pressure or stop by force spribe expanded and rotor blade gear separated from the main gear box..check it and then reply...



No my dear, now a days rotors are fully articulated to lead ,lag, feather and to flap.....If you understand that extreme forward momentum and change in RPM governed by the RPM governer are experienced during flying and no such mechanism can be installed fool proof....why because if you experience bird strike mid air then rotor will be detached due to extreme jolt and there you go.

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## Maarkhoor

Negotiator said:


> No my dear, now a days rotors are fully articulated to lead ,lag, feather and to flap.....If you understand that extreme forward momentum and change in RPM governed by the RPM governer are experienced during flying and no such mechanism can be installed fool proof....why because if you experience bird strike mid air then rotor will be detached due to extreme jolt and there you go.


yes detached but after release of pressure attached to main GB again....

a fraction of second pressure and ground hit totally different brother,


----------



## Negotiator

MaarKhoor said:


> yes detached but after release of pressure attached to main GB again....
> 
> a fraction of second pressure and ground hit totally different brother,



Kindly go and see the diagrams of a thing called Main Rotor head. hinges and its Hub..........You might understand.


----------



## Maarkhoor

Negotiator said:


> Kindly go and see the diagrams of a thing called Main Rotor head. hinges and its Hub..........You might understand.


Bro please grow and see modern rotor design.



MaarKhoor said:


> Bro please grow and see modern rotor design.


Since last decade rotor deigned in such fashion that any extra pressure detached blades from the main G.B.

and re=attached in fraction of second as soon as pressure releases.


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## Khafee

MaarKhoor said:


> Bro please grow and see modern rotor design.
> 
> 
> Since last decade rotor deigned in such fashion that any extra pressure detached blades from the main G.B.
> 
> and re=attached in fraction of second as soon as pressure releases.


How do you know so much about rotor design?

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## Maarkhoor

Khafee said:


> How do you know so much about rotor design?


Sir i am instrumentation engineer in my university UET as part of our study we discuss and debate how to prevent damage to gear box of any engine with high RPM i come to know how modern engine design works to prevent accidental stoppage of wheels and rotators to damage gear boxes, even in 80 the design I study exists. And I don’t know either the subject engine support this or not but it is highly presumable fact it does.

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## Khafee

MaarKhoor said:


> Sir i am instrumentation engineer in my university UET as part of our study we discuss and debate how to prevent damage to gear box of any engine with high RPM i come to know how modern engine design works to prevent accidental stoppage of wheels and rotators to damage gear boxes, even in 80 the design I study exists. And I don’t know either the subject engine support this or not but it is highly presumable fact it does.


What you described was the rotor / GB of the AW139, that's why the question. So you work as an instrumentation engineer, and eat snakes as a hobby?

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## Maarkhoor

Khafee said:


> What you described was the rotor / GB of the AW139, that's why the question. So you work as an instrumentation engineer, and eat snakes as a hobby?


hahaa yes as hobby and passion. Sir as i told you it is highly presumable since I hav't study subject engine. I am doing calibration of pressure gauges and flow controls for oil and gas field for my company past nine years.

@Khafee Highly recomended pls watch. simply implementing this thing with few changes we can make the huge difference





The mechanisim i discussed somewhat works like that.

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## fatman17

New parts will be required from the manufacturer to rebuild the helo if the army boys conclude otherwise it will go to the scrap heap.

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## Maarkhoor

fatman17 said:


> New parts will be required from the manufacturer to rebuild the helo if the army boys conclude otherwise it will go to the scrap heap.


Rotor blade assembly along with connecting shaft and some gears but i believe if the main gear box is not damaged then helo can be repairable.

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## Rashid Mahmood

The helo will only be repairable if the airframe is not damaged beyond repair, otherwise it will be considered BER. 
All other parts can be replaced.

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## SSGcommandoPAK

After the Jf-17 and trainer aircrafts pakistan should focus on designing a transport and attack heli for its army with the help of the chinese aviation ..


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## Signalian

PAA needs a dedicated strike aircraft on the lines of A-10 , SU-25 etc that can relieve PAF from carrying the burden of not only giving air cover to PA but also performing air interdiction missions.

Considering the aircrafts already operated by PAF and slated for retirement are F-7 and Mirage III/V.

A-5 was a great choice, it was very cheap to procure and maintenance cost was low. It had 10 hard points and could carry a variety of air to ground ordnance including guided, unguided etc bombs. Infact PAF also used it for A2A CAP's. Retired and out of service, it might be a cumbersome task to bring its support and maintenance system back to life.

The light trainers K-8 and MFI-17 cannot carry enough ordnance to strike the enemy targets and their ecm and avionics is basic level. However, as last resort, they can have pylons added to them to carry A2G ordnance.

Mirages III/V are even older than F-7 though they are more potent and effective than F-7, even Non-ROSE ones. Most of Mirages acquired in the last batch were attained to be cannabalized for parts which means that apart from ROSE modified, the other mirages have almost non existent life on their air frames. PAF wanted to convert more Mirages to ROSE standards but changed decision due to over bearing cost and importantly coz of old ageing air frames. Retired Non-Rose Mirages can spark more crashes than sortie rates. On the other hand, PAF might need them for parts to keep ROSE squadrons airworthy for next many years.

PAF may not let go of F-7 PG quickly. It has an upgraded radar and its performance at high altitude is good. 

The F-7P replaced by JF-17 can be the choice of aircraft for PAA for ground strike missions. SLAF and BAF have used them as ground strike aircraft with different munitions. BAF has also modified F-7 by increasing its hard points from 5 to 7.

F-7P already has the support and maintenance infrastructure available for operations. There are 100+ F-7P in PAF service. Even if a 12-18 aircrafts squadron is given to the three commands of PA: Northern,Central and Southern, 50 odd aircrafts would be required. 

The AGM-65 maverick in PAF service is used by F-16's, though its an under utilization for it. F-16 in PAF has many other significant roles.

If this weapon is integrated with Grifo radar of F-7P and used by PAA , having a range of around of 20km can be used effectively to hit enemy tanks, Mobile SAM's, Ammo and Fuel dumps, C4I and other command centres, important bridges etc.
Originally a TV guided missile but in later variants the resolution has been enhanced so pilots dont need to get really close to target to fire it as some versions are IR and laser homing targetting.It can be used with LANTRIN and even Altis pod on PAF F-16's.
C-704 is considered the chinese equivalent of AGM-65, although C-704 is an anti-ship missile.

F-7 has basic 2 X 30mm cannons. Non guided 500kg bombs or Mk82 bombs may also be used. BAF uses cluster, anti runway and PGM bombs.
It can already carry Aim-9 A2A missile.

Though the loiter time is less but if it can show up in time of need, engage, strike and turn away, its a bang for buck.

With the induction of a dedicated strike aircraft in PAA, the distress calls for air cover as well as air support by PA can be met easily without hampering PAF ops.

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## TaimiKhan

Sarge said:


> PAA needs a dedicated strike aircraft on the lines of A-10 , SU-25 etc that can relieve PAF from carrying the burden of not only giving air cover to PA but also performing air interdiction missions.
> 
> Considering the aircrafts already operated by PAF and slated for retirement are F-7 and Mirage III/V.
> 
> A-5 was a great choice, it was very cheap to procure and maintenance cost was low. It had 10 hard points and could carry a variety of air to ground ordnance including guided, unguided etc bombs. Infact PAF also used it for A2A CAP's. Retired and out of service, it might be a cumbersome task to bring its support and maintenance system back to life.
> 
> The light trainers K-8 and MFI-17 cannot carry enough ordnance to strike the enemy targets and their ecm and avionics is basic level. However, as last resort, they can have pylons added to them to carry A2G ordnance.
> 
> Mirages III/V are even older than F-7 though they are more potent and effective than F-7, even Non-ROSE ones. Most of Mirages acquired in the last batch were attained to be cannabalized for parts which means that apart from ROSE modified, the other mirages have almost non existent life on their air frames. PAF wanted to convert more Mirages to ROSE standards but changed decision due to over bearing cost and importantly coz of old ageing air frames. Retired Non-Rose Mirages can spark more crashes than sortie rates. On the other hand, PAF might need them for parts to keep ROSE squadrons airworthy for next many years.
> 
> PAF may not let go of F-7 PG quickly. It has an upgraded radar and its performance at high altitude is good.
> 
> The F-7P replaced by JF-17 can be the choice of aircraft for PAA for ground strike missions. SLAF and BAF have used them as ground strike aircraft with different munitions. BAF has also modified F-7 by increasing its hard points from 5 to 7.
> 
> F-7P already has the support and maintenance infrastructure available for operations. There are 100+ F-7P in PAF service. Even if a 12-18 aircrafts squadron is given to the three commands of PA: Northern,Central and Southern, 50 odd aircrafts would be required.
> 
> The AGM-65 maverick in PAF service is used by F-16's, though its an under utilization for it. F-16 in PAF has many other significant roles.
> 
> If this weapon is integrated with Grifo radar of F-7P and used by PAA , having a range of around of 20km can be used effectively to hit enemy tanks, Mobile SAM's, Ammo and Fuel dumps, C4I and other command centres, important bridges etc.
> Originally a TV guided missile but in later variants the resolution has been enhanced so pilots dont need to get really close to target to fire it as some versions are IR and laser homing targetting.It can be used with LANTRIN and even Altis pod on PAF F-16's.
> C-704 is considered the chinese equivalent of AGM-65, although C-704 is an anti-ship missile.
> 
> F-7 has basic 2 X 30mm cannons. Non guided 500kg bombs or Mk82 bombs may also be used. BAF uses cluster, anti runway and PGM bombs.
> It can already carry Aim-9 A2A missile.
> 
> Though the loiter time is less but if it can show up in time of need, engage, strike and turn away, its a bang for buck.
> 
> With the induction of a dedicated strike aircraft in PAA, the distress calls for air cover as well as air support by PA can be met easily without hampering PAF ops.



Getting aircraft for PA will bring more financial burden on it and nor we have the resources to get. Yeah if they can get some used A-10s that's another thing but still it will need lot of money to keep them running. 

Better is to get more attack helicopters and good ones which can survive for long on the battlefield plus a mobile air defense system which can keep up with armored formations and give them protection from aerial threats. This solution is more economical and feasible.


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## Signalian

Another prospective addition on the lines of AC-130 SPOOKY.
*
Y-8 Gunship*: A projected gunship version based on the Y-8C with two heavy cannon and ports for three heavy machine-guns on the port side of the aircraft. Weapons aiming and target acquisition achieved by gyro-stabilised optoelectronic sighting system in a ball turret under the nose. A steerable searchlight would be installed in a pod under the port outer wing, as well as ESM and/or ECM pods as required.

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## Zarvan

Sarge said:


> PAA needs a dedicated strike aircraft on the lines of A-10 , SU-25 etc that can relieve PAF from carrying the burden of not only giving air cover to PA but also performing air interdiction missions.
> 
> Considering the aircrafts already operated by PAF and slated for retirement are F-7 and Mirage III/V.
> 
> A-5 was a great choice, it was very cheap to procure and maintenance cost was low. It had 10 hard points and could carry a variety of air to ground ordnance including guided, unguided etc bombs. Infact PAF also used it for A2A CAP's. Retired and out of service, it might be a cumbersome task to bring its support and maintenance system back to life.
> 
> The light trainers K-8 and MFI-17 cannot carry enough ordnance to strike the enemy targets and their ecm and avionics is basic level. However, as last resort, they can have pylons added to them to carry A2G ordnance.
> 
> Mirages III/V are even older than F-7 though they are more potent and effective than F-7, even Non-ROSE ones. Most of Mirages acquired in the last batch were attained to be cannabalized for parts which means that apart from ROSE modified, the other mirages have almost non existent life on their air frames. PAF wanted to convert more Mirages to ROSE standards but changed decision due to over bearing cost and importantly coz of old ageing air frames. Retired Non-Rose Mirages can spark more crashes than sortie rates. On the other hand, PAF might need them for parts to keep ROSE squadrons airworthy for next many years.
> 
> PAF may not let go of F-7 PG quickly. It has an upgraded radar and its performance at high altitude is good.
> 
> The F-7P replaced by JF-17 can be the choice of aircraft for PAA for ground strike missions. SLAF and BAF have used them as ground strike aircraft with different munitions. BAF has also modified F-7 by increasing its hard points from 5 to 7.
> 
> F-7P already has the support and maintenance infrastructure available for operations. There are 100+ F-7P in PAF service. Even if a 12-18 aircrafts squadron is given to the three commands of PA: Northern,Central and Southern, 50 odd aircrafts would be required.
> 
> The AGM-65 maverick in PAF service is used by F-16's, though its an under utilization for it. F-16 in PAF has many other significant roles.
> 
> If this weapon is integrated with Grifo radar of F-7P and used by PAA , having a range of around of 20km can be used effectively to hit enemy tanks, Mobile SAM's, Ammo and Fuel dumps, C4I and other command centres, important bridges etc.
> Originally a TV guided missile but in later variants the resolution has been enhanced so pilots dont need to get really close to target to fire it as some versions are IR and laser homing targetting.It can be used with LANTRIN and even Altis pod on PAF F-16's.
> C-704 is considered the chinese equivalent of AGM-65, although C-704 is an anti-ship missile.
> 
> F-7 has basic 2 X 30mm cannons. Non guided 500kg bombs or Mk82 bombs may also be used. BAF uses cluster, anti runway and PGM bombs.
> It can already carry Aim-9 A2A missile.
> 
> Though the loiter time is less but if it can show up in time of need, engage, strike and turn away, its a bang for buck.
> 
> With the induction of a dedicated strike aircraft in PAA, the distress calls for air cover as well as air support by PA can be met easily without hampering PAF ops.


For strike roles JH-7 B can be good option or SU-34 or J-16

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## Inception-06

Zarvan said:


> For strike roles JH-7 B can be good option or SU-34 or J-16



A selam,

He knows that better than you, but he try to post realistic ideas, tactics and strategies ! Which our national Budge can pay and not what PDF posters wishes ! I think you should join Pakistan Rangers, Army or Punjab Elite Forces ! I would love to see you one day in a Pakistrani Force Uniform, you could become a good leader of a unit, build up and maintenance our Bunkers and posts near the Afghan Border and send us in PDF some pictures from the frontline

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## fatman17

The first 3 ship batch of AH 1Z super Cobras will be delivered by 2017 along with Hellfire AGMs

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## Cool_Soldier

I was expecting delivery of those helos in 2018 but as Fatman mentioned, if they are entering in to PAA in 2017, will be a good news.


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## fatman17

Cool_Soldier said:


> I was expecting delivery of those helos in 2018 but as Fatman mentioned, if they are entering in to PAA in 2017, will be a good news.



Total 15 helos will be delivered by 2018 as long as Pakistan makes the payments on time.

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## fatman17

PL-90


PL-90 is one of the smallest and lightest AAMs in the world developed specifically for helicopter self-defence against enemy helicopters and slow moving fixed-wing aircraft. A total of 8 PL-90s were seen carried by Z-9WA/WZ attack helicopter. Its length is 1,862mm, diameter 90mm, weight 20kg, warhead 3kg, range 500-6,000m, engage altitude 0-6,000m, max speed 2 Mach, max load 20g. It features a dual-band IR seeker with a good IRCCM property, giving the missile an all-aspect engage capability. It also features a laser proximity fuse as well. PL-90 appears to have been derived from shoulder-launched QW-1/2 SAM which is comparable to the American Stinger missile. Its export version was first revealed at the 1998 Zhuhai Airshow as TY-90. PL-90 entered the service with PLA Army Aviation in 2006. The missile can be carried by Z-9W/WA/WZ, Mi-17/Mi-171, Z-10 and Z-19. However PL-90 has still yet to prove its effectiveness in real combat due to its small size.
- Last Updated 1/19/16


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## fatman17

*Lockheed Martin to provide Pakistan with Target Sight Systems*
By Ryan Maass | Jan. 19, 2016 at 12:48 PM


*



*



*







*





Lockheed Martin's Target Sight System provides target identification and tracking information for the AH-1Z Cobra attack helicopter. Photo by Lockheed Martin


WASHINGTON, Jan. 19 (UPI) -- Lockheed Martin has received a $14 million contract to provide Target Sight Systems for Pakistan's AH-1Z attack helicopters.

The contract includes software development and testing, system modification, and installation requirements to integrate the TSS into the Cobra helicopters. The TSS provides target information and tracking data for the helicopter, in addition to passive targeting for integrated weapons.

TSS is a multi-sensor, electro-optical/infrared fire control system developed for the U.S. Marine Corps. The system uses a turret mounted onto the nose of the aircraft, and features multi-mode and multi-target tracking capabilities.
Work on the contract will be performed in Florida, and is expected to be complete by December 2017.
 UPI.com





AH-1Z Super Cobra

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## fatman17

Army helo lands at Bacha Khan University

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## fatman17

Pakistan AH-1Z Target Sight System Contract

Posted on 20 January, 2016



US Marine Corps AH-1Z Viper 168398 ‘YR-45’ from Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 161 (VMM-161) ‘Gray Hawks’, 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit, undertakes a training flight over the Pacific Ocean on November 30, 2015. Lockheed Martin was awarded a contract on January 15 for work on the Target Sight System that will be installed on the AH-1Zs that are being ordered by the Pakistan Army. US Marine Corps/Sgt Jamean Berry

LOCKHEED MARTIN’S Missiles and Fire Control division has been awarded a $14,221,556 contract to carry out work on the Target Sight System (TSS) for the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps’ Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters. An initial $3,555,389 from Fiscal 2016 Foreign Military Sales funding was released when the deal was awarded on January 15 by the US Naval surface Warfare Center.

The work involved includes carrying out non-recurring engineering requirements on the TSS, including software development and testing, system modification, testing and installation requirements necessary to configure the TSS to Pakistani requirements. Contract completion is anticipated by December 2017.

The TSS provides target identification and tracking, passive targeting for integrated weapons, including Hellfire missiles, together with a laser-designation capability supporting friendly laser-guided weapons. As previously reported on AFD, Pakistan plans to buy 15 AH-1Zs and an initial order for the first of these was placed with Bell Helicopter on August 25, 2015. The number in that first order was not announced, but it is thought to be for only three helicopters. AFD-Dave Allport


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## fatman17

Pakistan Army Helicopters in Charsadda

PostThu Jan 21, 2016 4:52 pm

Pakistan Army helicopters seen at the site of terrorist attack at Bacha Khan University, Charsadda, on January 20, 2016.


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan Army Helicopters in Charsadda
> 
> PostThu Jan 21, 2016 4:52 pm
> 
> Pakistan Army helicopters seen at the site of terrorist attack at Bacha Khan University, Charsadda, on January 20, 2016.


any news on the trials of Z10 by PAA. thanks in advance.
A


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## mingle

araz said:


> any news on the trials of Z10 by PAA. thanks in advance.
> A


According to Haris PDF Pak Army is very happy with performance of Z10 they sent them back for few Pak related upgrades and two of them r back again with one Z19 too i think they back with upgrades .Haris and Usman both think there will be an order near future .

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## araz

mingle said:


> According to Haris PDF Pak Army is very happy with performance of Z10 they sent them back for few Pak related upgrades and two of them r back again with one Z19 too i think they back with upgrades .Haris and Usman both think there will be an order near future .


The reason I asked was some questions raised on the net about the tewmperature rising very quickly in Z10s. I hope it was just an internet rumour. I do like the platofrm. The other resason is the talks between PAA and the Russians for MII 28s. Where do we fit this in unoess the Z10 did not quite live upto its reputation.
A


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## nomi007

Finally, a clearer shot of Z-10's cockpit! I read that Z-10's pilot and gunner cockpits have identical layouts and controls.

(1536 x 853)

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## Cool_Soldier

I hope soon, contract will be signed for Z10. Any hope about adding in numbers of MI 35 as original contract was for only 4.
Why did Pakistan never consider KA 52 ?


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## fatman17

In March 2015 Pakistani Army evaluated 3 Z-10s for replacing its aging AH-1S fleet but did not acquire the model.


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## fatman17

A recent image (July 2015) suggested an improved Z-10 (Z-10K?)was under development and a prototype has flown. It appears to feature an improved targeting system with an additional sensor behind the PVDS and a new 23mm gun.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> A recent image (July 2015) suggested an improved Z-10 (Z-10K?)was under development and a prototype has flown. It appears to feature an improved targeting system with an additional sensor behind the PVDS and a new 23mm gun.


Yes a new upgraded Z-10 is in trial phase our Chinese members can share the details. I found this picture




@Beast @Deino @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @cirr

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## Deino

Zarvan said:


> Yes a new upgraded Z-10 is in trial phase our Chinese members can share the details. I found this picture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Beast @Deino @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @cirr




Sorry, but this is not an upgraded, improved version but simply an old image of the no. 03 prototype. just look at the fuselage configuration ...

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## Zarvan

Deino said:


> Sorry, but this is not an upgraded, improved version but simply an old image of the no. 03 prototype. just look at the fuselage configuration ...
> 
> View attachment 291118


Thanks for the details and @fatman17 and @Tipu7 Check these pictures

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## Tipu7

fatman17 said:


> A recent image (July 2015) suggested an improved Z-10 (Z-10K?)was under development and a prototype has flown. It appears to feature an improved targeting system with an additional sensor behind the PVDS and a new 23mm gun.


Is Z10 underpowered?
Does it need new more powerful engines???



Deino said:


> Sorry, but this is not an upgraded, improved version but simply an old image of the no. 03 prototype. just look at the fuselage configuration ...
> 
> View attachment 291118


Is their any upgrade in fuselage?


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## Sulman Badshah

PA officer pose with PAA Mushshak

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## fatman17

Tipu7 said:


> Is Z10 underpowered?
> Does it need new more powerful engines???
> 
> 
> Is their any upgrade in fuselage?



Engine is an issue esp in hot and dust environment of FATA

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## Cool_Soldier

Hmmm! It seems z1o is not meeting our requirements yet.It might take some more time to be matured and to be picked up by PAA. What is left for us is Russian Helos or Turkish option which again has technology string linked with US sanctions in case of situation changes.

So better adopt Mi 35 or Mi 28


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## fatman17

Pakistan Army

Two Cessna 208Bs Delivered to Pakistan Army

Posted on 3 February, 2016

New Honduran Air Force Cessna 208B Grand Caravan EX FAH-020 taking off on December 23 from Base Aérea Teniente-Coronel Hernán Acosta Mejía Air Base, Tegucigalpa-Toncontín International Airport. Two of the type have also recently been delivered to the Pakistan Army. Mario Theresin

A PAIR of new production Cessna 208B Grand Caravan EXs were delivered to Pakistan during December and are believed to have entered service with the Army Aviation Corps. The comprise N546PA (c/n 208B5246) and N548PA (c/n 208B5248), which were cancelled from the US register on December 30 after taking up military serials. An order for these aircraft had not been announced and it is unknown whether any further examples are due to follow.

Both aircraft, painted in camouflage colours, had departed from Wichita/Mid-Continent Airport, Kansas, on November 30 for Moundridge, also in Kansas. They remained there until December 14, when they left for Kokomo Municipal Airport, Indiana, then on to Burlington International Airport, Vermont, before flying to Santa Maria in the Azores on December 17 and then onwards to Pakistan. AFD-Dave Allport

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan Army
> 
> Two Cessna 208Bs Delivered to Pakistan Army
> 
> Posted on 3 February, 2016
> 
> New Honduran Air Force Cessna 208B Grand Caravan EX FAH-020 taking off on December 23 from Base Aérea Teniente-Coronel Hernán Acosta Mejía Air Base, Tegucigalpa-Toncontín International Airport. Two of the type have also recently been delivered to the Pakistan Army. Mario Theresin
> 
> A PAIR of new production Cessna 208B Grand Caravan EXs were delivered to Pakistan during December and are believed to have entered service with the Army Aviation Corps. The comprise N546PA (c/n 208B5246) and N548PA (c/n 208B5248), which were cancelled from the US register on December 30 after taking up military serials. An order for these aircraft had not been announced and it is unknown whether any further examples are due to follow.
> 
> Both aircraft, painted in camouflage colours, had departed from Wichita/Mid-Continent Airport, Kansas, on November 30 for Moundridge, also in Kansas. They remained there until December 14, when they left for Kokomo Municipal Airport, Indiana, then on to Burlington International Airport, Vermont, before flying to Santa Maria in the Azores on December 17 and then onwards to Pakistan. AFD-Dave Allport




We should have bought additional Y-12 would have been cheaper and we already have the infratsructure for the Y-12, cant understand this purchase ! 

*Harbin Y-12* or has the Y-12 a negative operating history in our aviation ? @fatman17


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## Cool_Soldier

Addition of new small birds will enhance our capabilities. Good to see any kind of development in Navy.
Good luck Navy!


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## Inception-06

Cool_Soldier said:


> Addition of new small birds will enhance our capabilities. Good to see any kind of development in Navy.
> Good luck Navy!




You mean Army right ? And its not a good development if we buy more VIP planes !


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## Cool_Soldier

Yes., PAA, mistakenly wrote Navy.
But obviously good luck to every branch of our beloved forces.


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> You mean Army right ? And its not a good development if we buy more VIP planes !



Not VIP aircraft. Comm and logistics.

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## Sulman Badshah



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## fatman17

The Cessna 208 Caravan is a single-engined turboprop, fixed-tricycle landing gear, short-haul regional airliner and cargo carrier. 
Price US $ 2 mill per copy.


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## fatman17

Military configuration

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> The Cessna 208 Caravan is a single-engined turboprop, fixed-tricycle landing gear, short-haul regional airliner and cargo carrier.
> Price US $ 2 mill per copy.


So its cheaper than the Y-12 Harbin ?


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## Cool_Soldier

We need bigger platform for transport role in Army. 
European options are expensive, So look towards Russia.


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## fatman17

These aircraft will be used to resupply remote military posts in FATA and Balochistan

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## Sulman Badshah



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## TaimiKhan

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 291913



Don't think its PA pic. The Cobra's are different then what PA operates. Seems Turkish.

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## Rashid Mahmood

TaimiKhan said:


> Don't think its PA pic. The Cobra's are different then what PA operates. Seems Turkish.




M60 and Cobra recovered during military exercises conducted in 1974. 
Photo credit: US Army / DoD.

Source:
Cavalry | SOBCHAK SECURITY - est. 2005

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## Sulman Badshah

Fringes of Deosai Plains, Skardu, GB.

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## fatman17

Army Mushshak

Two Crew Killed in Crash of Pakistan Army Mushshak

Posted on 9 February, 2016

Pakistan Army Mushshak 95-5375 takes off from Quasim on November 17, 2009. One of the Army’s Mushshaks crashed this evening, killing both pilots. AFD-Alan Warnes

BOTH CREW members were killed when a Pakistan Army PAC MFI-17 Mushshak crashed this evening, February 9, near Gujranwala in the Gujrat district of Punjab. The fatalities were identified as instructor pilot Major Azhar and student pilot Captain Ahmed.

The circumstances surrounding the crash, which occurred during a routine training mission, were not immediately clear. AFD-Dave Allport


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## aziqbal

The army Mushshak are not in good shape and seriously need to be upgraded or replaced

PAF should order new units and hand over some of its Super Mushshak to army aviation 

I believe those army Mushshak don't even have air con and need to fly very early in the day to avoid heat, and who pays the price the pilots and the instructors

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## fatman17

In 2013 it was reported that upto 16 AH1S / F Cobras were transferred to Pakistan’s army aviation. The actual figure is 8.

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## Saquib

Does anyone have any news about the three Z-10 helicopters - how are they performing and what the pilots think of them?


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## razgriz19

aziqbal said:


> The army Mushshak are not in good shape and seriously need to be upgraded or replaced
> 
> PAF should order new units and hand over some of its Super Mushshak to army aviation
> 
> I believe those army Mushshak don't even have air con and need to fly very early in the day to avoid heat, and who pays the price the pilots and the instructors



you know these small piston bangars cab fly for 4 decades. If proper maintenance procedures are followed, almost all critical systems would get replaced a few times throughout its life, thus keeping the aircraft always in good flying condition. 

I am not sure if Saab originally planned to have an air frame time expiry date, if they didn't then these aircraft should be in decent conditions.


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## fatman17

Saquib said:


> Does anyone have any news about the three Z-10 helicopters - how are they performing and what the pilots think of them?



Returned to China and no deal for now.


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## Cool_Soldier

Hmmm! That means PAA must think for immediate alternative availability to fill in gap as cobras are getting old and requirements are soaring day by day.


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## fatman17

Cool_Soldier said:


> Hmmm! That means PAA must think for immediate alternative availability to fill in gap as cobras are getting old and requirements are soaring day by day.



So far AH1Zs are the only confirmed replacement.


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## Shabi1

fatman17 said:


> So far AH1Zs are the only confirmed replacement.


I don't think AH-1Zs confirmed either, was an offer from US. Nevertheless we wont find out anything until the last moment, military isnt sleeping, they keep induction plans under wraps because India nearly shits itself no matter what we buy.

Was reading up on improved WZ-10 in the works, apparently current ones are a bit under powered.


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## fatman17

Shabi1 said:


> I don't think AH-1Zs confirmed either, was an offer from US. Nevertheless we wont find out anything until the last moment, military isnt sleeping, they keep induction plans under wraps because India nearly shits itself no matter what we buy.
> 
> Was reading up on improved WZ-10 in the works, apparently current ones are a bit under powered.



Sir you are mistaken. Search the blog for confirmation. 3 helos to be delivered in 2017. Balance by 2018.

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## Shabi1

fatman17 said:


> Sir you are mistaken. Search the blog for confirmation. 3 helos to be delivered in 2017. Balance by 2018.


My mistake, thanks for correcting.

Update on WZ-10, new powerplant being built by China and Turbomeca, is the WZ16. Will increase power from 1000kw to 1500kw, an increase of 500kw

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## fatman17

Hellfire AGM


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## Sulman Badshah

Fennec

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## fatman17

December 09/15: Lockheed Martin has been awarded a $318.3 million modification to a foreign military salescontract . The deal is to provide Hellfire II missile hardware/component production for South Korea, Egypt, Pakistan, Iraq, India, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia and Indonesia, with completion expected by October 2018. Fiscal 2015 other procurement (Army) funds in the amount of $56,590,878 were obligated at the time of the award. The contract comes as US allies are rushing to increase stockpiles of cruise missiles and other military hardware which has had manufacturers struggling to fill orders


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## nomi007

Bell AH-1Z Viper helicopter

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## Maarkhoor

*AH-Z viper







*

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## ghazi52

Nice..............


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## razgriz19

Shabi1 said:


> I don't think AH-1Zs confirmed either, was an offer from US. Nevertheless we wont find out anything until the last moment, military isnt sleeping, they keep induction plans under wraps because India nearly shits itself no matter what we buy.
> 
> Was reading up on improved WZ-10 in the works, apparently current ones are a bit under powered.


No ah1z are confirmed. You can google it


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## fatman17

One Crew Member Killed in Pakistan Army Mi-17 Crash

Posted on 29 February, 2016


Pakistan Army Aviation Corps Mi-172 58628 taxies out at Qasim Army Aviation Base on November 17, 2009. A Pakistan Army Mi-17 crashed today near Tarbela, killing one of the five crew members. AFD-Alan Warnes

A PAKISTAN Army Aviation Corps Mi-17 helicopter crashed today, February 29, following a technical malfunction during a routine night training flight. One crew member, identified as Lt Col Tauqeer, died in the accident.

Four other crew members escaped from the crash, although it was not reported whether any of them had been injured. The helicopter came down near Tarbela, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. AFD-Dave Allport

Posted in News


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> One Crew Member Killed in Pakistan Army Mi-17 Crash
> 
> Posted on 29 February, 2016
> 
> 
> Pakistan Army Aviation Corps Mi-172 58628 taxies out at Qasim Army Aviation Base on November 17, 2009. A Pakistan Army Mi-17 crashed today near Tarbela, killing one of the five crew members. AFD-Alan Warnes
> 
> A PAKISTAN Army Aviation Corps Mi-17 helicopter crashed today, February 29, following a technical malfunction during a routine night training flight. One crew member, identified as Lt Col Tauqeer, died in the accident.
> 
> Four other crew members escaped from the crash, although it was not reported whether any of them had been injured. The helicopter came down near Tarbela, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. AFD-Dave Allport
> 
> Posted in News


It's time to slowly start replacing our MI-17 they have started to become our flying coffins. I know about the budget issue don't tell me about that but we have to start it soon. We are loosing precious brave harts


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> It's time to slowly start replacing our MI-17 they have started to become our flying coffins. I know about the budget issue don't tell me about that but we have to start it soon. We are loosing precious brave harts



Not too many affordable options out there. It's either more Mi17s or go to the used market, upgrade and use

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## TaimiKhan

Zarvan said:


> It's time to slowly start replacing our MI-17 they have started to become our flying coffins. I know about the budget issue don't tell me about that but we have to start it soon. We are loosing precious brave harts



Agreed, i think we should gradually start inducting newer types. Even if they can get 3-5 helicopters on yearly basis, it won't effect much the budget issues and in a few years time old platforms will be replaced. 

India started inducting nearly 150 MI-17s from 2008 in two contracts and this month they received the last batch. So in 7-8 years time period they got 150 new helicopters.



fatman17 said:


> Not too many affordable options out there. It's either more Mi17s or go to the used market, upgrade and use



Sir, Mi-17s have been excellent for us. Newer Mi-17s are a good option, i think we should stick with the type and keep getting them on yearly basis in low numbers such that we cover our loses and replace older ones too.

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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> Agreed, i think we should gradually start inducting newer types. Even if they can get 3-5 helicopters on yearly basis, it won't effect much the budget issues and in a few years time old platforms will be replaced.
> 
> India started inducting nearly 150 MI-17s from 2008 in two contracts and this month they received the last batch. So in 7-8 years time period they got 150 new helicopters.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, Mi-17s have been excellent for us. Newer Mi-17s are a good option, i think we should stick with the type and keep getting them on yearly basis in low numbers such that we cover our loses and replace older ones too.



we are doing exactly that. buying new Mi17s from Russia and Ukraine in batches of 6 to 10. I have no issues with the type.

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## Quwa

I think the PAA might consider supplementing the Mi-17 and Mi-171s. There are quite a few Pumas and old Hueys that will be in need of replacing, but I don't think the PAA can do much about them until Pakistan's financial situation changes gears. That said, the Chinese Z-20 and Z-15 could be interesting options.

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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> we are doing exactly that. buying new Mi17s from Russia and Ukraine in batches of 6 to 10. I have no issues with the type.



Sir, since you have contacts in Navy, can you find how is the performance of those Z-9s ? If they have been performing not badly, then i think we can go for chinese options in future once their platforms jointly developed with european firms come online. 

I don't doubt chinese platforms much, as we hardly hear news of their helicopters coming down. Their usage is heavy, so if fewer helis are coming down, it means they are reliable enough.

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## Sulman Badshah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/704366811362533376


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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir, since you have contacts in Navy, can you find how is the performance of those Z-9s ? If they have been performing not badly, then i think we can go for chinese options in future once their platforms jointly developed with european firms come online.
> 
> I don't doubt chinese platforms much, as we hardly hear news of their helicopters coming down. Their usage is heavy, so if fewer helis are coming down, it means they are reliable enough.



Navy is happy with the Z9EC ASW helos. Taken some load off the larger Seakings. 
Plans may be afoot to upgrade to Z9D configuration to carry the Y9 ASM (l think).

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## fatman17

The new Z-9D anti-ship variant prototype is shown here. Based on Z-9C, Z-9D was developed to carry up to 4 AShMs under a pair of detachable stub wings against small surface targets. The missile could be the new YJ-9, which may have been evolved from the earlier TL-10B developed by Hongdu. TL-10B is a light, radar-guided anti-ship missile used against smaller FACs and gun boats (<1,000t). Its range is 15km, speed is Mach 0.85 and its warhead weighs 30kg.

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## fatman17

YJ9 ASM

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## fatman17

Z9D

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## ghazi52



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## RAMPAGE

@HRK @fatman17

What's the status of our AH-1 Cobra fleet? Remaining service life? Any replacement or upgradation plans that you're aware of?


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## Blue Marlin

fatman17 said:


> Returned to China and no deal for now.


really? there were on the defence.pk twitter page not to long ago. i cant find the pic but it was of a z10 taking off in the background and a guy in a car in the forground taking a picture of it.


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## fatman17

RAMPAGE said:


> @HRK @fatman17
> 
> What's the status of our AH-1 Cobra fleet? Remaining service life? Any replacement or upgradation plans that you're aware of?



We've ordered 15 AH1ZS with Hellfire AGMs


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## fatman17

Blue Marlin said:


> really? there were on the defence.pk twitter page not to long ago. i cant find the pic but it was of a z10 taking off in the background and a guy in a car in the forground taking a picture of it.



Roughly 32 are in servicible condition


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## Blue Marlin

fatman17 said:


> Roughly 32 are in servicible condition


im talking about the z10's here


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## muhammadali233

Blue Marlin said:


> really? there were on the defence.pk twitter page not to long ago. i cant find the pic but it was of a z10 taking off in the background and a guy in a car in the forground taking a picture of it.


they are still here being evaluated and will be inducted because the cobras in PAA inventory are slowly being phased out.Over priced Zulus and big target mi 35 are not the answer.

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## RAMPAGE

fatman17 said:


> Roughly 32 are in servicible condition


Are you talking about AH-1S/F?

Do you think that it will be a good idea to upgrade a few with modern avionics, mission computer/cockpit/MFDs, HMDs etc and keep them for COIN operations?


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## Blue Marlin

muhammadali233 said:


> they are still here being evaluated and will be inducted because the cobras in PAA inventory are slowly being phased out.Over priced Zulus and big target mi 35 are not the answer.
> View attachment 296432


yes that one


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## DESERT FIGHTER




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## Quwa

Just my opinion, but I think the PAA will probably induct a few additional AH-1Z. There's no point in spending all that money in setting up the infrastructure for the Viper if one isn't going to build upon it. I think the PAA as a good idea of what the Z-10 is capable of, but it may prefer waiting for the WZ16 turboshaft, which will enable the Z-10 to perform much better. Alternatively, the WZ16 could also result in a scaled-up Z-10, i.e. something more comparable to the AH-64, which is something that will certainly interest the PAA.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Abhi to koi Ghans bhi nahi dal raha


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## fatman17

Blue Marlin said:


> im talking about the z10's here



No Z10s in service. returned.


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## fatman17

RAMPAGE said:


> Are you talking about AH-1S/F?
> 
> Do you think that it will be a good idea to upgrade a few with modern avionics, mission computer/cockpit/MFDs, HMDs etc and keep them for COIN operations?



All S's were upgraded to F standard


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## Blue Marlin

fatman17 said:


> No Z10s in service. returned.


have they completed their trails or did it fail or something?
or are they just waiting for wz-16 engine
as quwa said it quiet likely your getting more zulu's as 15 is too low number to justify having.


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## fatman17

Blue Marlin said:


> have they completed their trails or did it fail or something?
> or are they just waiting for wz-16 engine
> as quwa said it quiet likely your getting more zulu's as 15 is too low number to justify having.



I'm quite certain there will be a repeat order after 15 Super Cobras are delivered by end 2018.


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## fatman17

Ex Jordanian Cobras in action


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## nomi007



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## fatman17

*Pakistan and combat helicopters in the war against terrorism*

The role of combat helicopters on the modern battlefield is expanding due to the increasing Islamic State`s (IS) terroristic group activity and the anti-terroristic coalition`s backlash. Several countries from the Persian Gulf, the Near East and the Central Asia regions are paying a lot of attention to the issue, acquiring the modern Russian, US, and European helicopters to provide close air support to their own forces and effective destruction of the IS`s facilities.

*Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopter*

At the same time, several countries are relying on obsolete Cold war-age platforms in fighting with Islamic State and other terroristic groups. One of such states is Pakistan, which continues to be a perspective customer for Russian combat helicopters.

There are several countries from the aforementioned regions, now fighting against IS. This list includes Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Bahrein, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Pakistan as the Near Eastern and Asian partners of the European members of the coalition. Helicopters play an important role in counter-terroristic actions (CTA). The air campaign of the Russian VKS (Vozdushno-Kosmicheskie Sily) against IS in Syria, being supported by several *Mi-24Ps* (Hind), proves their combat value.

From the aforementioned countries, Saudi Arabia has the strongest rotor-wing aircraft fleet. It comprises 15 helicopters, including 12 AH-64D Apache Longbow and three AH-64E Apache Guardian. The UAE has 30 AH-64Ds in its fleet. The Syria`s armed forces have 24 *Mi-25s* (export modification of Soviet Mi-24 Hind).

Iraq has recently upgraded its rotor-wing aircraft fleet, having received 16 Mi-35Ms and 11 *Mi-28NE "Night Hunter"* (Havoc-B) helicopters. According to the signed agreement, Russia is to supply to Iraq 24 Mi-35Ms and 19 Mi-28NEs in total before the midst of 2016.

Turkey has one of the strongest rotorcraft fleet in the region. It includes 18 AH-1Ps (Cobra), 12 AH-1S (Cobra), 6 AH-1W (Cobra), 4 TAH-1P (Cobra). The Turkish Aerospace Industries company (TAI) has started to supply the newest *T-129 ATAK* helicopters to the national armed forces. As of August 2015, nine T-129s had been delivered. Turkey`s armed forces intend to get 59 ATAKs in total, covering the requirement for modern combat helicopters. Pakistan has 38 AH-1F/S Cobras and one Mi-24 (in store). The Jordan`s rotor-wing aircraft fleet includes 25 AH-1Fs. The Bahrein`s Air Force has 16 AH-1Es, 12 AH-1Fs, 6 TAH-1Ps.

Now two countries are heavily relying on army aviation in fighting against terrorism, namely, Iraq and Pakistan. Baghdad has decided to buy modern helicopters, including well-protected Mi-28NEs. At the same time, the Islamabad`s rotor-wing aircraft fleet is suffering from several troubles. The obsolete Cobras supplied to Pakistan in 1984-1986 do not fully withstand the pressure of fighting against IS. Their level of protection fails to meet the modern standards. The AH-1F/S payload is limited to 1500 kg, and only four or eight AGM-114 Hellfire guided missiles can be installed.

Pakistan is suffering from the lack of spare parts for Cobras. This technical problem reduces the effectiveness of the Pakistan`s combat helicopter fleet backbone. AH-1F/S are becoming obsolete, and the upgrade of the Cobras seems to be unpractical. Therefore, now Islamabad is feeling a deep need in new combat rotor-wing aircraft acquisition.

Pakistan is actively seeking new ways to get helicopters for the national armed forces. Having declined the appropriate Islamabad`s requests for several times, In April 2015 the U.S. State Department took the final decision to approve the sales of 15 AH-1Z Vipers to Pakistan (previously Washington had declined the appropriate request for the helicopters several times for the reasons of human rights infringement by Islamabad). AH-1Z payload (2620 kg) is at the level of *Mi-35V* and Mi-28NE. Nevertheless, the Viper`s ballistic and missile protection is weaker in comparison with the "Night Hunter". At the same time, the AH-1Z`s price tag is significantly higher than the *Mi-28NE*`s one.

*CAIC Z-10 attack helicopter*

Pakistan is also conducting negotiations with China to acquire rotor-wing aircraft. In particular, Islamabad took the delivery of three Z-10 combat helicopters from Chinese company CAIC (Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation). Nevertheless, the combat effectiveness of these rotorcraft is being doubted by some Western analytics. They have never been tested in combat environment. Z-10 carries smaller payload (approximately 1500 kg) in comparison with Mi-35M, Mi-28NE, or AH-1Z. It is equipped with two WZ-9 engines, which come short of power in comparison with Russian Klimov VK-2500-2 and US General Electric T700-GE-401C. Being underpowered, Z-10 cannot fly with full payload.

Meanwhile, modern well-protected helicopters are strongly sought-for. According to the investigation conducted by US Department of Defence-led Joint Aircraft Survivability Program Office (JASPO) and Institute for Defence Analyses (IDA), man-portable air defence systems (MANPADS) and rocket-propelled RPG grenades pose the most significant threat to rotor-wing aircraft on the modern battlefield. JASPO and IDA have come to the conclusion, that in the course of Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom (in Afghanistan and Iraq, respectively) operations (OEF/OIF) between October 2001 and September 2009 combat losses (including aircraft shootdown by enemy fire) accounted for 19 % of all loses. Meanwhile, different mishaps accounted for the remaining 81 %. 73 % of fatalities occurred in combat theater. In total, 496 accidents took place within the prescribed period, and 375 rotor-wing aircraft were lost.

In comparison with the Vietnam War, the losses/flight time ratio reduced by seven times and consisted 2,71 lost helicopters for 100000 flight hours (reduction by seven times). Nevertheless, this figure excels the limit set by the US Congress and Pentagon (0,5 lost rotor-wing aircraft for 100000 flight hours).

The US armed forces have lost in combat 70 helicopters within the prescribed period. Different mishaps during combat during accounted for 157 rotor-wing aircraft. 148 more helicopters were lost in non-combat environment.

The losses of *AH-64A/AH-64D Apache Longbow* helicopters in the aforementioned conflicts are important for the estimation of modern helicopters` combat effectiveness on the battlefield. Between October, 2001 and September, 2009 11 AH-64s in Iraq and Afghanistan were lost due to the enemy fire: two in 2003, two in 2004, one in 2005, three in 2006, three in 2007. Different mishaps in combat environment accounted for 31 more Apaches: two in 2002, six in 2003, five in 2004, seven in 2005, four in 2006, six in 2007, and one in 2009. The US armed forces lost 26 rotor-wing aircraft in non-hostile environment within the prescribed period: seven in 2002, three in 2003, three in 2004, seven in 2005, two in 2006, three in 2007, and one in 2009. In total, the US armed forces lost 68 *AH-64A/AH-64D* between October, 2001 and September, 2009, including 11 in combat environment (16 %).

The ageing *AH-1 Cobra/Super Cobra* helicopters also suffered some combat losses during Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom, namely, five rotor-wing aircraft. One *AH-1* was lost in 2003, two in 2004, one in 2006, one in 2008. Non-hostile mishaps accounted for 5 Cobras: one in 2002, two in 2003, one in 2004, one in 2009. In total, the US armed forces lost 15 AH-1s between October 2001 and September 2009, including five in combat environment (33 %).

Modern researches point out the reduction of all types of rotor-wing aircraft losses in Iraq and Afghanistan in comparison with the Vietnam War. This trend was defined by the installation of new equipment and avionics, additional armour of cockpit, protected and shockproof fuel systems. In particular, UH-60 Blackhawk utility helicopter can fly for at least 30 minutes, having been hit by a single 7,62mm armour-piercing incendiary bullet. AH-64A/AH-64D`s armour protection is significantly heavier.

Small arms and light weapons (SALW) have been the most significant threat to the helicopters both in Vietnam and in Iraq/Afghanistan. SALW accounted for 94 % of combat losses during the Vietnam War and for 31 % during the OIF/OEF. SALW is supposed to be the most significant threat to rotor-wing aircraft in the years to come. The danger, emanating from MANPADS and rocket-propelled grenades has increased. Modern combat helicopters are heavily protected from bullets, meanwhile being relatively vulnerable to MANPDAS missiles.

Within the prescribed period the Iraqi and Afghanistan militants didn`t use radar-guided missile systems or anti-aircraft (AA) guns. The most powerful AA means, exploited by them, were MANPADS. Nevertheless, the sphere of the IS`s influence is spreading, and the terroristic group can get surface-to-air missile systems (SAM) in the near future, and the threat emanating from this kind of weapons may increase. Moreover, the video records produced by IS point out that the terrorists have weapons captured from the Iraqi government forces. Therefore, IS may obtain SAM systems. In this case Supercobras/Vipers and Mi-35Ms will remain short of *Mi-28NE*s and AH-64D/Es.

The US experts recommend equipping combat helicopters with electronic warfare systems, IR jammers and other countermeasures, flares, anti-blast seats for crew, threat detection systems, missile-warning equipment, and fly-by-wire systems. The upgrade of helicopters` crashworthiness level is also suggested. Therefore, Mi-28NEs being already equipped with the aforementioned hardware would have superiority over Mi-35Ms in fighting against IS in the regions of the Near East and Asia.

*Mi-35M* is the latest modification of the world-famous Hind, while Mi-28NE is a helicopter designed from the scratch with a glance to the Afghan war (1979-1989) combat experience. The conditions of this conflict are similar to those of war against the IS terroristic group.

*Boeing AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopter*

Mi-28NE`s gun weapon has several advantages over the Mi-35M`s one. Night Hunter is equipped with NPPU-28 gun mount with 30mm 2A42 gun (widely used in Russian armed forces BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicle is also equipped with 2A42 gun). Its ammunition load includes 300 rounds. 2A42 uses four types of ammunition, namely armour-piercing (AP) 3UBR6 and 3UBR8, high-explosive (HE) fragmentation incendiary 3UOF8, fragmentation incendiary 3UOR6. 3UBR6 and 3UBR8 shells can effectively hit armoured vehicles at the 1000 m and 1500 m, relatively. Foreign operators of 2A42 gun also have an option to use armour piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) shells produced by Swiss, Belgian, Bulgarian, Czech, and Slovak companies. 2A42 gun can hit personnel targets at the 2000-4000 m (depending on the type of shell).

In comparison with Night Hunter, the Mi-35M`s gun weapon is less powerful. The helicopter is equipped with NPPU-23 gun mount with 23mm GSh-23L gun. Its ammunition load includes 450 rounds. GSh-23L uses several types of ammunition, namely, HE tracer OFZ-23-AM-GSh, HE incendiary tracer OFZT-23-AM-GSh, AP incendiary tracer BZT-23-AM-GSh and BZT-23-GSH, HE incendiary FZ-23-GSh and FZ-23-GSh-N, AP explosive BR-23-AMGSh, multiple-element ME-23-GSh.

In the terms of armour penetration and behind-armour-effect, 23x115mm rounds of GSh-23L are inferior to 30x165mm rounds of 2A42. GSh-23L can hit hard targets at 1000-1500 m, and soft targets - at 2000 m. Only Russian and Chinese batch-produced aircraft are equipped with GSh-23/GH-23L. Therefore, the range of foreign ammunition types for the gun is restricted, and the aforementioned Russian rounds are delivered with helicopters and planes to foreign customers. GSh-23L has only one advantage over 2A42, namely, the ability to fire multiple-element round ME-23-GSh. It has a high degree of effectiveness against personnel targets and uncovered aircraft. Therefore, Mi-28N`s gun weapon is more effective in fighting against terroristic groups than the Mi-35M`s one.

The Night Hunter`s payload (2400 kg) significantly exceeds the Hind-M`s one (2100 kg). In addition to that, Mi-28NE can use more types of weapons.

Mi-35M`s range of armament subsystems includes UPK-23 gun pods with two GSh-23L guns (250 rounds per pod), B8V20-A 20-tube unguided rocket launchers for 80mm S-8 family of rockets, B13L1 5-tube unguided rocket launchers for 122mm S-13 family of rockets, up to 16 AT-6 Spiral or AT-9 Spiral-2 anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) in two pods. Mi-28NE can also use the aforementioned systems. While Mi-35M is equipped with AT-6 ATGMs as the standard anti-tank weapon, Mi-28NE uses AT-9. Night Hunter also can fire air-to-air 9M39 Igla-V missiles included in the Strelets system.

Mi-28NE`s level of protection significantly increases the Mi-35M`s one. In comparison with Mi-24V, Mi-35M`s armour hasn`t been essentially upgraded. During the Afghan war DShK, M2/M2HB machineguns, and ZGU-1, ZPU-1/ZPU-2/ZPU-4, ZU-23-2 AA guns posed the main threat to the Soviet Mi-24Vs. The aforementioned weapon can effectively hit not only the previous Hind modification, but also Mi-35Ms.

*TAI T129 ATAK attack helicopter*

During the development of Mi-28NE, its designers payed significant attention to the helicopter`s ballistic protection. Two VK-2500-2 engines are separated and shielded by the airframe components. The blades of both main and auxiliary rotors are made of durable composites. The fueling, hydraulic, and pneumatic mains are duplicated. Moreover, the less important Mi-28NE`s subsystems cover the more important ones. The helicopter`s pore spaces are filled with foamed material. The crew received armoured cabin and anti-blast seats with parachute rescue system. Mi-28NE is equipped with inflatable air bags to prevent collision of the crew with landing gear in case of emergency escape. Special attention was payed to fire protection, namely, fuel tanks and inflammable sections. Mi-28NE is supposed to get energy-attenuating landing gear. The helicopter`s canopy and cabin are protected from 12,7mm AP and 20mm/23mm HE-I rounds. The rotor blades can withstand several hits of 30mm HE rounds. Therefore the Mi-28NE`s probability of being hit by heavy machinegun and small-caliber guns has been reduced. Therefore, ZU-23-2 (supposed to be the most widespread AA gun of IS) should spend significantly more time and rounds to shoot down Night Hunter.

Mi-28NE is also equipped with modern onboard defence system, which includes laser/radar warning system (there is an option of missile warning installation). To increase the chance of MANPADS missiles avoiding, President-S electronic jamming station can be optionally fitted.

The Mi-28NE`s endurance toward MANPADS missiles has significantly increased in comparison with Mi-35M. Modern insurgent and terroristic group are shoring up their anti-air defence systems. Previously they had Soviet SA-7 Grails and US FIM-92A Stingers. At the time, IS is supposed to have 250-400 MANPADS (including FIM-92, FN-6, SA-7, SA-18, SA-24) and huge numbers of ZU-23-2 AA gun, DShK and M2HB machineguns. SA-24 MANPADS, captured by IS terrorists from the Syrian government armed forces pose the most significant threat to combat helicopters. The Chinese FN-6 MANPADS, acquired by Qatar for the Free Syrian Army and subsequently handed over to IS, should not be underestimated. At least, one Iraqi Mi-35M equipped with Ukrainian KT-01-AVE Adros electronic jamming station was shot down by FN-6 in October, 2014. IS also has several 23mm ZSU-23-4 Shilka self-propelled AA guns and 57mm AZP-57 towing AA guns.

Therefore, the Islamic State is rapidly beefing up its air defence. The terrorist group is supposed to follow such a trend in the near future. As a result, the heavy-protected combat helicopters (for instance, Mi-28NE) are required by anti-IS government forces to carry on air strikes.

*il Mi-28NE attack helicopter*

Pakistan is moving toward the acquisition of the Russian combat helicopters. During Dubai Airshow 2015 exhibition the Rostec Corporation`s director general Sergei Chemezov told, that Pakistan would start to receive the ordered Mi-35Ms in 2016. Islamabad gives a high rating to the Russian combat rotor-wing aircraft, as the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) state company`s head, Air Marshal Javaid Ahmed told the European Defence Review during the Dubai airshow. "_The quality of Russian defence production is outstanding,_" Ahmed said.

He pointed out, that Pakistan was working with Russian industry in several areas. "_I hope, we will see breakthrough on several issues in the following next months,_" he pointed out. "_Pakistan has recently acquired Russian Mi-35M combat helicopters. I suppose this deal is a king of progress _(in Russian-Pakistan relations)", Ahmed added.

The PAC`s head highly appreciated Russian rotor-wing aircraft. "_Previously, we acquired Mi-171 utility helicopters from Russia. They revealed to be reliable aircraft in our sandy climate conditions. We are reviewing some options to work closely with several Russian companies,_" Ahmed said.

He added, that Pakistan`s armed forces were demanding modern helicopters in relatively large quantities. "_We are extensively using our rotor-wing aircraft in operations against terrorists. To this end, we need every piece of Russian defense production_," the PAC`s head underscored.

Pakistan is ready to promote the military-technical cooperation with Russia, confirmed Pakistan Air Force`s (PAF) commander, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman during Dubai Airshow 2015. "_The PAF are open for cooperation, we are eager to establish good relationship with different countries_," Aman said. "_We are estimating the probability to fulfill several projects, including those with Russia,_" he added.

"_Why not? We should beef up relations with different countries, giving a helping hand and complementing each other. Aircraft engines constitute only one aspect of defense production. We should develop cooperation,_" Ahmed said. Therefore, the Pakistan military authorities are demonstrating their willingness to acquire and use Russian rotor-wing aircraft.

*Mil Mi-35M attack helicopter*

Taking into account the aforementioned data, several conclusions can be made. The modern battlefield requires for combat helicopters equipped with heavy ballistic protection and integrated EW suits. To hit armor and personnel targets effectively, these rotor-wing aircraft should have gun weapon, ATGMs, and unguided rockets. The required payload is supposed to be more, than 2000-2300 kg. The modern combat helicopters should be equipped with two spaced-apart engines, each having at least 2000 h.p. 

Taking into account the financial constraints, as well as abovementioned requirements, Pakistan has only two options to be chosen from, namely, Russian Mi-28NE Night Hunter or US AH-1Z Viper. Both helicopters are at the same level in the terms of combat characteristics. Nevertheless, Mi-28NE has three key advantages over AH-1Z, namely, improved reliability in mountain and desert regions, less expensive life cycle cost, simplified requirements for crew training. In keeping with the aforementioned approach, the cost-effectiveness criterion seems to be the pivotal one, as different mishaps, not enemy fire account for most of combat helicopter losses on the modern battlefield. 

The exploitation of AH-1Zs during OEF/OIF revealed that dust, sand and hot climate limited the operations of these helicopters. At the same time, Russian-made counterparts, namely, Mi-28NEs and Mi-35Ms presented themselves well in several countries of the Near East and Central Asia regions. On that premise, Russian combat helicopters seems to be the best option for the Pakistan`s armed forces in terms of fighting against terrorism.

*© Copyright 2015 TASS.



















*

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## ghazi52

Nice..............


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## nomi007

hd pictures

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*Pakistan to receive nine AH-1Z attack helos*
*Gareth Jennings, London* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
04 April 2016





Pakistan has now contracted nine of the 15 AH-1Z helicopters that it requested. It is unclear if it will sign for the remaining platforms at a later date, or make up the numbers with a different type. Source: Jamie Hunter


Pakistan is to receive nine Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters by the end of September 2018, a US Department of Defense (DoD) contract notification has disclosed.

The USD170.2 million contract, awarded on 4 April, is a modification to a wider award made in August 2015 that covered AH-1Z Viper helicopters for the US Marine Corps (USMC) and Pakistan, as well as UH-1Y Venom helicopters for the USMC.

While the earlier award did not disclose AH-1Z numbers for Pakistan, the country had previously requested the procurement of 15 such platforms. With a number of nine aircraft now given, it is unclear if the remaining six requested will be contracted at a later date, or if the Pakistan Army that will operate them will instead opt to procure other types, such as the Chinese CHAIG WZ-10 attack helicopter (three have been received for trials, and the army has also flown them operationally on counter-terrorism missions).

The original US Defense Security Co-operation Agency notification of Pakistan's request included 1,000 AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-surface missiles for "a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high altitudes. By acquiring this [AH-1Z and Hellfire II] capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency [NWA], the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATAs], and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day and night environments".

The DoD contract notification is the latest development in Pakistan's ongoing efforts to bolster and eventually replace its existing 32 AH-1F Cobra platforms. Besides the AH-1Z and WZ-10, the country is rumoured to be interested in the Russian-built Mil Mi-28NE 'Havoc' as well. Further, it was announced on 19 August 2015 that Pakistan and Russia had signed a formal agreement for the procurement of four Mi-35 'Hind' attack helicopters, with more likely to follow.

Air Platforms
*Pakistan reveals interest in Russian dual-control Mi-28NEs*
*Nikolai Novichkov, Moscow* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
30 March 2016






The dual-control Mi-28NE has a number of features that can combat the potential threat of hostile ground fire. Source: N Novichkov


Pakistan has shown interest in acquiring the latest dual-control variant of the Mil Mi-28NE Night Hunter ('Havoc-B') attack helicopter, a Pakistani diplomatic source told _IHS Jane's_ on 24 March.

He pointed out that the dual-control Mi-28NE meets the Pakistani armed forces' requirements for a platform for counter-terrorism operations, as the helicopter's ballistic and radio-electronic protection and combat effectiveness have been improved over the basic Mi-28NE and both the pilot and gunner can control the aircraft.

Such features can significantly increase the level of a helicopter's survivability on the modern battlefield, where adversaries frequently have anti-aircraft guns and man-portable air-defence systems (MANPADS). The dual-control Mi-28NE's advanced ballistic protection kit allows the helicopter to withstand several hits from 23 mm (airframe) and 30 mm (composite rotor blades) shells.

Russia has previously offered Pakistan four Mi-28NEs without dual controls to support Islamabad's counter-terrorism operations: an offer that fostered resentment from India. The source noted that, although that offer was not furthered, when Rostvertol, Russian Helicopters' parent company, launched serial production of the dual-control Mi-28NE, "Pakistan showed its intention to take the issue from the table".

In 2015 Islamabad signed a contract with Russian defence export agency Rosoboronexport for four Mi-35M ('Hind-J') attack helicopters, the deliveries of which are scheduled for 2016.

*Pakistan Finalizes Hind Deal With Russia*
By Usman Ansari 6:09 p.m. EDT August 21, 2015







ISLAMABAD — Pakistan and Russia on Wednesday finalized a deal for the purchase of four Hind helicopter gunships, a number that is expected to grow.

However, beyond saying an agreement had been signed for four helicopters, local officials provided no further details.

The Ministry of Defence Production, which handles acquisition, did not return a request for comment on the agreement, such as a time frame for further deliveries or if they were specifically for counter-terrorism duties.

Both nations signed an agreement in November to cooperate on counter-narcotics and counter-terrorism issues, with the provision of defense equipment being made in this context.

Analysts here have stated the Mi-35s will be used to support special forces missions, especially the Special Operations Task Force, which is heavily involved in fighting in the Tribal Areas against the Pakistani Taliban, its allies and affiliates.

According to Russia's TASS news agency, a draft contract for four Mi-35M 'Hind E' helicopters was given to Pakistan in June. Pakistan's Army chief, Gen Raheel Sharif, made a trip to Moscow around the same time where it is believed the deal was agreed upon.

According to analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, the Hind fulfills a longstanding requirement.

"The Pakistan Army has been looking to procure Mi-35 type helicopters for some time, in fact since early '90s. It is a very versatile helicopter and it meets the requirement for [counter-insurgency] operations in the northwest, since it is one of the very few armored assault helicopters. It can carry eight fully equipped special operations soldiers and it is armed to protect itself and suppress enemy ground fire," he said.

Efforts to acquire such helicopters increased in the post-2001 environment.

"Post 2001, the Pak Army pushed to purchase Mi-35 because it has a lot of common engineering features with Mi-17, which they have more than 60."

The deal has been pursued since 2009.

The number of helicopters agreed upon is far lower than expected, however. At Pakistan's biennial defense exhibition IDEAS held in Karachi in December, a representative from Russian Helicopters told Defense News that the number under discussion was "more than five."

Analysts have said the number under discussion was 20.

Khan said Russia's current economic downturn has dictated the reduction in number for the time being.

"Initial requirement for Mi-35 was for 20 helicopters, which was supported with a line of credit provided by the Russians worth $2 billion," he said. "However, after the sanctions imposed on Russia by the EU and the USA, this line of credit was not possible."

Consequently, Pakistan's "Ministry of Defense was recently allocated funds to purchase four or five with eventual purchase of 20," Khan said.

Pakistan's attempts to acquire replacements for its worn out AH-1F Cobra gunships have taken many turns over the years, and until relatively recently it had been thought the options were between the Chinese WZ-10 and Turkish T-129. Both were heavily promoted to Pakistan.

Three WZ-10s are undergoing an operational evaluation in Pakistan though, and the Hind agreement as well as a $952 million deal to supply 15 AH-1Z gunships to Pakistan cleared in April appears to have shut the door on the T-129.

Analyst, author and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, believes this potential acquisition of three gunship types may be problematic.

"While it makes sense for the Army to acquire more attack helicopters, it is administratively unsound to have as many as three types," he said. 

"Training ground crews in servicing and maintenance will be most time-consuming and costly. Given the shaky state of US-Pakistan relations it is understandable that Pakistan wants to diversify, in case there is a congressional decision to cut military aid, as has happened at critical times in the past. But it's an expensive way to go."

In the meantime, the AH-1Z deal also continues to make steady progress. Earlier this week an $85.5 million contract was awarded to Bell Helicopter Textron by the DoD "to conduct research for, and develop updates to, weapons systems as part of a system configuration set (SCS) in support of the H-1 aircraft and the [US] Navy and government of Pakistan."

Email: uansari@defensenews.com


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## nomi007




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## fatman17

coming to an airbase near you.....

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 300226
> View attachment 300227
> View attachment 300228
> 
> coming to an airbase near you.....


Sir are you sure about Z-10. I thought we haven't have decided yet


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## nomi007



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## nomi007




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## nomi007

6 helicopters

wrong decision at that time

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## Rajput_Pakistani

Pakistan is to receive six new medical evacuation (MEDEVAC) aircraft from the United States, under a contract announced by the US Department of Defense (DoD) on 21 April.

The contract, which was awarded the day prior to the announcement, will see Cessna Aircraft Company provide and support two Cessna 208B Grand Caravan EX and four Cessna T206H Stationair aircraft that have been modified for aeromedical evacuation.

A 24-month sustainment package consisting of spares, tooling, and support equipment will be provided for each aircraft, and pilot and maintainer training will also be provided for the Pakistan Army.

Valued at USD14.09 million, the contract is scheduled to be complete by 30 December 2016.


First shown at the Paris Airshow in 2015, the Grand Caravan EX is touted for surveillance, air ambulance, paratrooper, amphibious operations, surveillance and training; and is equipped with a surveillance console, medical stretcher, lightweight seats and stowable utility seat. It has an optional range of internal configurations, as well as structural provision for two underwing hardpoints. The Grand Caravan EX has a main cabin that fits up to 14 people in a standard configuration; a useful load of 1,593 kg; a maximum cruise speed of 185 kt; and a range of 912 n miles.

The T206H Stationair is much smaller than the Grand Caravan EX, fitting 6 people in a standard configuration; a useful load of 581 kg; a maximum cruise speed of 164 kt; and a range of 703 n miles.

http://www.janes.com/article/59689/pakistan-to-receive-medevac-aircraft-from-us


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## Zarvan

A friend is claiming that he has seen 5 MI-35 on a base in Rawalpindi ? Can any one confirm this ? @fatman17 @kaonalpha

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> A friend is claiming that he has seen 5 MI-35 on a base in Rawalpindi ? Can any one confirm this ? @fatman17 @kaonalpha



nope but are scheduled for delivery in 2016.



Zarvan said:


> Sir are you sure about Z-10. I thought we haven't have decided yet



I think Pakistan will buy the Z10 with the improvements suggested after the field trials.

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## volatile

Up CLose and Personnel Zulu`s

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## fatman17

pictured at Ulan Ude Plant Moscow March 2016

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## hassan1

KING AIR 350 ISR

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## mingle

hassan1 said:


> KING AIR 350 ISR
> View attachment 305487
> View attachment 305488


Hassan r they operated by Army ?How many of them we have now ?


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## hassan1

yes operated by pak army


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## Manticore

New Mi-171E for PAF.  May 2016




















Barmaley said:


> New Mi-171E for PAF.  May 2016]

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## Sulman Badshah

Manticore said:


> New Mi-171E for PAF.  May 2016


Delivery of 4 more is remaining ...

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## Tipu7

As per credible facebook page, 2 out of 6 Mi171 which were ordered past year are delivered to Pakistan by Russia.

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## Tipu7

Mi35 are expected to be delivered by End of July ......

Doors for defense co operation between Pakistan and Russia are opening ......

@Khafee @DESERT FIGHTER @Windjammer @Ulla

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## Windjammer

They look the business.

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## shah1398

Tipu7 said:


> Mi35 are expected to be delivered by End of July ......
> 
> Doors for defense co operation between Pakistan and Russia are opening ......



That would be a surprise. Can U plz enlighten us on the significant known points of the contract? I mean weaponry, radar (if any) etc accompanying MI-35s.


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## Sulman Badshah

Tipu7 said:


> As per credible facebook page, 2 out of 6 Mi171 which were ordered past year are delivered to Pakistan by Russia.
> 
> View attachment 305926
> 
> 
> View attachment 305928
> View attachment 305929
> View attachment 305930
> View attachment 305931


High resolution pics are already posted in Pakistan army aviation thread


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## Djinn

The OP says they have been delivered without any weapons package. What does that mean: Russian wont deliver any weapons or Pakistan didn't order any?

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## Tipu7

Djinn said:


> The OP says they have been delivered without any weapons package. What does that mean: Russian wont deliver any weapons or Pakistan didn't order any?


It's Unarmed version.
Not Gunship one







shah1398 said:


> That would be a surprise. Can U plz enlighten us on the significant known points of the contract? I mean weaponry, radar (if any) etc accompanying MI-35s.


.no details available yet .......


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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> It's Unarmed version.
> Not Gunship one
> View attachment 305934
> 
> 
> 
> .no details available yet .......


Will they be used by SSW of PAF ?


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## Bratva

Tipu7 said:


> As per credible facebook page, 2 out of 6 Mi171 which were ordered past year are delivered to Pakistan by Russia.
> 
> View attachment 305926
> 
> 
> View attachment 305928
> View attachment 305929
> View attachment 305930
> View attachment 305931



171 E has VK-2500-III upgraded engines which can operate in extreme hot conditions and has a FADEC in it.

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## Zarvan

Bratva said:


> 171 E has VK-2500-III upgraded engines which can operate in extreme hot conditions and has a FADEC in it.


Russia itself is looking to induct MI-38. We should keep an eye on these Helicopters


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## Sulman Badshah

Bratva said:


> 171 E has VK-2500-III upgraded engines which can operate in extreme hot conditions and has a FADEC in it.



I think the reason why PAA select this one is Naltar valley crash ... and these new one will be used for VVIP movements ... 

its engine can take -50to +50 temp ... it can reliably be operated in tough terrain like hilly areas .. it can land on difficult position .. and it can operate day/night more effectively than our current fleet ..

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## fatman17

Leonardo-Finmeccanica has announced




that Pakistan will purchase an undisclosed number of AW139 helicopters for Search & Rescue missions. This will add to 11 already in service, and delivery is to commence in 2017. The contract is part of a fleet renewal program



spread over several batches, including a logistic support and training package.

Industry
*Pakistan signs up for more AW139 helos*
*Gabriel Dominguez, London* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
25 May 2016






Pakistan has signed a contract for an undisclosed number of AgustaWestland AW139s. Source: Leonardo-Finmeccanica


Pakistan has signed a contract for an undisclosed number of AgustaWestland AW139 intermediate twin-engine helicopters, Italian defence group Leonardo-Finmeccanica announced on 24 May.

The contract is part of a fleet renewal programme spread over several batches, including a logistic support and training package. The AW139s, deliveries of which are expected in 2017, will be used to perform search-and-rescue (SAR) operations across the country, said the AgustaWestland parent company.

A total of 11 AW139s are already in service in Pakistan, with five aircraft operated for government relief and transportation duties.

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## PakShaheen79

Which variant PAA would be acquiring? AW139 Basic or AW139M which is a militarized version.


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## Quwa

PAA (and ideally PAF and PN) ought to try and reduce maintenance and logistical channels; stick to the AW139 (and its variants) and build up the fleet, and later, push for local MRO and some spare parts manufacturing.

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## Zarvan

Quwa said:


> PAA (and ideally PAF and PN) ought to try and reduce maintenance and logistical channels; stick to the AW139 (and its variants) and build up the fleet, and later, push for local MRO and some spare parts manufacturing.


Pakistan needs to set up production plant for helicopters. It's ridiculous that we are producing Fighter and Trainer Jets bu not Helicopters.


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## Quwa

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan needs to set up production plant for helicopters. It's ridiculous that we are producing Fighter and Trainer Jets bu not Helicopters.


It's an issue of scale. We took took the weight of the JF-17 because it was pivotal to maintaining our basic modernization needs, and there really was no other route (except perhaps buying off-the-shelf from China). 

With helicopters, it isn't as urgent; the Mi-17/171 parts probably come cheap thanks to the thousands in service around the world, and we are flush with foreign suppliers willing to sell. 

At some point, maybe 10-15 years from now, each state entity should compile their utility helicopter requirements into one singular type. In turn, we can produce that type domestically, but in stages: start with MRO, move up to parts manufacturing, and then proceed to local licensed production (and do it for many decades).

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## Danish saleem

Brothers,

Please check its for Pakistan Army not For air force.

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## Danish saleem

i think they going to replace Puma's.


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## fatman17

This new purchase is exclusively for the PAF, totalling 6.

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## fatman17

Danish saleem said:


> Brothers,
> 
> Please check its for Pakistan Army not For air force.



Air force SAR

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## nomi007

@*fatman17*
what is current status of AH-1Z after F-16s saga


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> @*fatman17*
> what is current status of AH-1Z after F-16s saga



On schedule as paid for by own funds 100%

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> On schedule as paid for by own funds 100%


but after this news






there is no need to publish this news


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## Sulman Badshah



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## fatman17

Just a exercise patch. don't read much into it


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## BetterPakistan

fatman17 said:


> Just a exercise patch. don't read much into it



When Al khalid 2 is coming.. I am dying to see it?


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## Zarvan

BetterPakistan said:


> When Al khalid 2 is coming.. I am dying to see it?


I am hoping to see pictures in next few months


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## BetterPakistan

Zarvan said:


> I am hoping to see pictures in next few months



I have read details about it and it seems quite powerful tank to me.

I don't know much technically about tanks so i wanna ask you whether it matches any of the mainstream tanks like Chinese VT-4 MBT or Russia T-14 Armata??


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## Zarvan

BetterPakistan said:


> I have read details about it and it seems quite powerful tank to me.
> 
> I don't know much technically about tanks so i wanna ask you whether it matches any of the mainstream tanks like Chinese VT-4 MBT or Russia T-14 Armata??


It will be quite powerful and better than VT-4 MBT

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## BetterPakistan

Zarvan said:


> It will be quite powerful and better than VT-4 MBT



One more thing i was searching on internet from months which is "What is the nuclear yield of Shaheen-3"?


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## Danish saleem

Brothers,

Sorry to say , our RnD is very weak, we develop Al Khalid in 1990's, and its now almost 20 years, and we are waiting for Al Khalid II.

We started working on JF-17's in mid 90's , and now we are developing Block II and III, after that Block IV, Block V, Block VI, for next 30 years, world reaching towards 5th generation and we still stucked between 3rd and 4th.


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## BetterPakistan

Danish saleem said:


> Brothers,
> 
> Sorry to say , our RnD is very weak, we develop Al Khalid in 1990's, and its now almost 20 years, and we are waiting for Al Khalid II.
> 
> We started working on JF-17's in mid 90's , and now we are developing Block II and III, after that Block IV, Block V, Block VI, for next 30 years, world reaching towards 5th generation and we still stucked between 3rd and 4th.



the reason is money which is the responsibility of your govt to provide.


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## Imran Khan

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 308181


even the map is not included kashmir


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## Danish saleem

BetterPakistan said:


> the reason is money which is the responsibility of your govt to provide.



sorry bro,

RND is never the priority of our Armed forces, we always focusing on import of Weapons.


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## BetterPakistan

Danish saleem said:


> sorry bro,
> 
> RND is never the priority of our Armed forces, we always focusing on import of Weapons.



Nope

Mostly defense products are made in Pakistan and how you can wish for latest equipment for your military forces when your economy is as broke as hell?

When central govt will pay our armed forces what they deserve then you will see how they prosper.


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## Sulman Badshah

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1705467706371356


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## fatman17

This is a army aviation thread please

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## fatman17

King Air 350 ISR

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## TaimiKhan

Sulman Badshah said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1705467706371356



Is it authentic news ?


----------



## Sulman Badshah

TaimiKhan said:


> Is it authentic news ?


yes


----------



## Arsalan

TaimiKhan said:


> Is it authentic news ?


It is from a facebook page, don't know how authentic the news can be. Plus frankly, i am not able to tell this as T129 and not Z-10 that we actually have in Pakistan. Can someone point the differences with reference to what we see in this video?


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## Signalian

Night Vision is not enough for AH-1F/S of PAA.

FLIR equipped attack helo is needed.


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## Danish saleem

BetterPakistan said:


> Nope
> 
> Mostly defense products are made in Pakistan and how you can wish for latest equipment for your military forces when your economy is as broke as hell?
> 
> When central govt will pay our armed forces what they deserve then you will see how they prosper.



bro its baseless arguments, our Armed forces budget were increase more than inflation every year, and check the their budget in 90', and check the amount now, in 90's we started developing our own tanks, JF-17's, Talha ,Saad, , Anz MK1, MKII, Bikter Shikan, because of implementation of secular Amendment by American Congress, and we decided that we now stand on our own foots.

what happen now, where is RnD Bro.


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## alimobin memon

Sarge said:


> Night Vision is not enough for AH-1F/S of PAA.
> 
> FLIR equipped attack helo is needed.


FLIR is also present in cobra I dont think its useful without it to have a cobra


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## BetterPakistan

Danish saleem said:


> bro its baseless arguments, our Armed forces budget were increase more than inflation every year, and check the their budget in 90', and check the amount now, in 90's we started developing our own tanks, JF-17's, Talha ,Saad, , Anz MK1, MKII, Bikter Shikan, because of implementation of secular Amendment by American Congress, and we decided that we now stand on our own foots.
> 
> what happen now, where is RnD Bro.



Your entire nation is poor. You don't have money to feed them. YOu don't have money to buy machinery to make latest equipment and you want your defense forces to make the best product? Grow up and blame the one's whom are actually responsible for it.


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## Windjammer

A PAA Cobra gunship firing rocket.

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## Signalian

alimobin memon said:


> FLIR is also present in cobra I dont think its useful without it to have a cobra


According to info that i have, only a few, around 12 have FLIR


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## Danish saleem

BetterPakistan said:


> Your entire nation is poor. You don't have money to feed them. YOu don't have money to buy machinery to make latest equipment and you want your defense forces to make the best product? Grow up and blame the one's whom are actually responsible for it.



bro,

I am blaming to whom i have to blame, as compere to 90's we are in better conditions, but the argument is, our priorities changed , now our Rnd in development of new Weapons were changed, we just concentrating on Importing Weapons.


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## BetterPakistan

Danish saleem said:


> bro,
> 
> I am blaming to whom i have to blame, as compere to 90's we are in better conditions, but the argument is, our priorities changed , now our Rnd in development of new Weapons were changed, we just concentrating on Importing Weapons.



You are wrong, completely wrong. Today our defense industry is better compare to 1990's.

Make your defense budget comparable to other countries and I bet you will see defense products in Pakistan better than other countries. Problem is simply, finances for which your lovely leaders are responsible.


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## fatman17

Sarge said:


> According to info that i have, only a few, around 12 have FLIR



All cobras are now at AH1F standard which includes FLIR.


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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> All cobras are now at AH1F standard which includes FLIR.



AH-1F standard doesnt include FLIR instead NV system. However, C-NITE upgrade introduces FLIR in AH-1 series.
Anyways, its a relief if all PAA Cobras have FLIR.


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## fatman17

Sarge said:


> AH-1F standard doesnt include FLIR instead NV system. However, C-NITE upgrade introduces FLIR in AH-1 series.
> Anyways, its a relief if all PAA Cobras have FLIR.



That's the word l was looking for C-NITE


----------



## deepwater




----------



## Sulman Badshah

Bell

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## ghazi52

Great............................


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## nomi007

*










new family memeber of PAA*

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> new family memeber of PAA*


its new guest sir jee not family member yet

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> new family memeber of PAA*



Turkish flag on the tail. Don't count your chicks before they are hatched.

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## nomi007

*






KD-9 ATGM a good weapon for Eurocopter Fennec & [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_AS350']Eurocopter AS350[/URL]*

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## Lone Ranger

Pak army ah-1 Cobra

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Turkish flag on the tail. Don't count your chicks before they are hatched.


Sir jee is this chick going to hatch or are we having another miscarriage like so many times before.
A

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## Maj.Osmani

araz said:


> Sir jee is this chick going to hatch or are we having another miscarriage like so many times before.
> A


I think now days we are using contraceptives, many trials but nothing conceived

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## araz

Maj.Osmani said:


> I think now days we are using contraceptives, many trials but nothing conceived


Made my day!! Thanks for that one.
Regards
A

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

new *19-tube rocket launchers* (70mm) similar to American M261 for a bigger fire power against ground targets





hope PAA will also use them against TTP


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## Arsalan

Looks deadly!! 
I just hope that the required little tweaks are made and are successful and we opt for this platform as our main attack helicopter for the future.


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## Fammaz Ali

Sir , I have given preference to aeronautical engineering in my ssb forms. If I clear it. Should I gor for aeronautical engineering. What is the corps for them? and which engineering is best for pak army as a technical cadet? I wil be very thankful


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## fatman17

Fammaz Ali said:


> Sir , I have given preference to aeronautical engineering in my ssb forms. If I clear it. Should I gor for aeronautical engineering. What is the corps for them? and which engineering is best for pak army as a technical cadet? I wil be very thankful



Join the airforce


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## RAMPAGE

@Bilal Khan 777

Sir, What do you think about PAC reverse engineering Bell 412 or coming up with some derivative? Can they do it? Is it a good idea? What would be US's reaction?

I remember the Senate was informed that PAC is capable of reproducing AH-1s and Mirages etc. I believe that the AH-1 shares a quite a few components with other Bell helicopters.


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## S.U.R.B.

nomi007 said:


> new *19-tube rocket launchers* (70mm) similar to American M261 for a bigger fire power against ground targets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hope PAA will also use them against TTP



You have mentioned the Hydra there.It reminds me about the WGU-59/B kits for them, the unguided rockets.That makes it in to an APKWS (Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System).

I have my doubts that the Pak Army aviation is getting those kits with their ZULU helicopter deal.It's developed by the BAE systems( ...the kit should be available from the source).But, it's Pakistan who needs to put an eye i-e guidance system in front of those arrows the most.It's a cost solution for our aviation core.
The west does not only push for the development of their platforms and make them effective & safer for their militaries, but also you'll find them very much dedicated towards the evolution of their weapon systems.






































For further reading:
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012armaments/Tuesday14006paras.pdf


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## ZedZeeshan

Does anyone knows when are 4 MI35 Due..??


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## Thorough Pro

Idea is great but we don't have the capability to "Engineer", when we become capable of "Engineering" then we can try "reverse engineering" major components.



RAMPAGE said:


> @Bilal Khan 777
> 
> Sir, What do you think about PAC reverse engineering Bell 412 or coming up with some derivative? Can they do it? Is it a good idea? What would be US's reaction?
> 
> I remember the Senate was informed that PAC is capable of reproducing AH-1s and Mirages etc. I believe that the AH-1 shares a quite a few components with other Bell helicopters.


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## S.U.R.B.

ZedZeeshan said:


> Does anyone knows when are 4 MI35 Due..??


2016, is the year.Seems like it's the second half of it, that'll deliver the good news.

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## Sulman Badshah

*Military helicopter crashes in Hunza*
By Shabbir Mir
Published: July 14, 2016
155SHARES
SHARE TWEET EMAIL




Pilot of Hughes OH-7 receives minor injuries. PHOTO: EXPRESS

An Army helicopter of Frontier Works Organisation (FWO) crashed in Hunza Valley of Gilgit-Baltistan on Thursday, injuring the pilot.

“The incident occurred soon after the chopper, Huges OH-7, took off,” Deputy Commissioner Hunza Burhan Afandi told _The Express Tribune_.

*Military helicopter crash kills officer, injures two others in Tarbela*

“The pilot sustained injuries in the incident,” Afandi said, adding that five persons were on-board at the time of crash.

Amjad Barcha, a local journalist stated that the helicopter crashed in the ground of Hunza Boys Degree College soon after it took off.

Volunteers arrived at the site of the incident immediately are trying to extinguish the fire, an eyewitness claimed.

In February, an Army Aviation’s helicopter crashed near Tarbela Dam, killing a senior military officer and injuring two others.

*12 dead as military helicopter crashes near Mansehra*

“An MI-17 helicopter of Army Aviation was on a routine training operation when it crashed within the Army Aviation base Ghazi, some 55km from Tehsil Ghazi, after developing some technical fault at sunset killing Lt-Col Tauqir on the spot,” DSP Ghazi Tehsil Hakim Khan told_The Express Tribune_.

The two others who were also onboard at the time of crash sustained injuries. They were identified as Major Usman and Hawaldar Basharat.

_This is a developing story and will be updated accordingly._

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/military-helicopter-crashes-in-hunza.439305/#ixzz4EN42zYN7


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## fatman17

Army Gulfstream in EU


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## fatman17

Pakistan Army Lama Helicopter Evacuating Injured People from Chitral

PostMon Jul 04, 2016 9:29 am

Pakistan Army Aerospatiale SA 315B Lama helicopter evacuating people injured due to floods in Chitral photographed on July 3, 2016.


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## fatman17

At a remote airfield


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


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## fatman17

Army aviators


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/757948384833576964


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## RAMPAGE

RAMPAGE said:


> @Bilal Khan 777
> 
> Sir, What do you think about PAC reverse engineering Bell 412 or coming up with some derivative? Can they do it? Is it a good idea? What would be US's reaction?
> 
> I remember the Senate was informed that PAC is capable of reproducing AH-1s and Mirages etc. I believe that the AH-1 shares a quite a few components with other Bell helicopters.


@Bilal Khan 777


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## fatman17

Notice the radar mounted on top of the helos


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## GuardianRED

fatman17 said:


> Notice the radar mounted on top of the helos


Not sure it is Radar - Looks more like an EO turret


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## fatman17

GuardianRED said:


> Not sure it is Radar - Looks more like an EO turret



U may be right thanks


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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

Mi17 at Tilla range

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## fatman17

AH1F Cobra

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## nomi007

finally z-10 get helmet mount display system
hope PAA will consider this

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## Irfan Baloch

nomi007 said:


> finally z-10 get helmet mount display system
> hope PAA will consider this
> View attachment 326534


my hopes are for T-129 helicopter

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## TOPGUN

Irfan Baloch said:


> my hopes are for T-129 helicopter



Same here Irfan Bhai

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## fatman17

Thursday, November 1, 2007

Helicopter Heroism: HOGE Sling Rescue at 18,040 FtJames T. McKenna

IT WAS MIDDAY ON AUG. 8, 2005 when Lt. Col. Rashid Ullah Beg got the call to rescue a mountaineer from an elevation of 20,670 ft (6,300 m) on Nanga Parbat.

The Pakistan army aviator at once made a few calculations and concluded it was impossible to hover his SA315B Lama at that altitude at the prevailing temperatures. He recommended the mountaineer be brought down to, say, 18,000 ft, where a rescue attempt could be made. He heard nothing more and assumed his advice had been heeded.

That was until late that evening, when his corps commander told him he must undertake the mission. (The climber, Tomaz Humar of Slovenia, was a world-renowned mountaineer, and notorious for making solitary ascents by the most difficult and dangerous routes.) From that point, Beg considered it a military mission. "We had to attempt to accomplish it," he said, "even at the cost us of grave danger to our lives."

Beg contacted the famous Pakistani mountaineer Nazir Sabir, who had arranged HumarÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s expedition. He painted a bleak picture. Humar was on the Rupal Face, a near-vertical wall more than 14,760 ft high. No one could climb to rescue him, Sabir said, and for him to attempt a descent would be suicidal.

The weather forecast for the next two days was favorable. After that, it would worsen for several days. Humar might not last that long.

Beg quickly ruled out a hoist operation for weight, center-of-gravity and power considerations. The density altitude would be nearly 23,000 ft. Hovering, even in ground effect, was impossible with his aircraftÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s weight, he thought, let alone hovering out of ground effect (HOGE) and picking up a 150-lb (70-kg) man. The only hope was a sling rescue, he concluded.

The Lama was the right helicopter for the mission; it still holds the absolute altitude record of almost 42,000 ft. But Jean Boulet had stripped his Lama to an empty weight of 1,870 lb for the record flight. BegÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s Lama weighed more than 2,640 lb.

Beg drafted a plan that, he said later, "had very bleak chances of success, but was the only thing we could do." They would fly the mission with two Lamas and one Mi-17 in a support role. Beg and Maj. Khalid Amir Rana would fly one Lama from Qasim army aviation base in Rawalpindi to Astore, a village about 15 nm northeast of the climberÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s base camp. Lt. Col. Ubaid ur Rehman and Maj. Mueen ud Din would fly the Lama from Skardu (along with the Mi-17 crew) at Astore.

From there, the three helicopters would fly to the base camp at 11,150 ft, where they would strip the Lamas of excess weight and rig the sling rope below the helicopter.

At 1415, they got word that the clouds had lifted and the Rupal Face was partially visible. Within 45 min, they landed at the base camp.

A day earlier, an Alouette from the private company Askari Aviation had photographed HumarÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s position on the Rupal Face.

"When we saw the position on a photo and correlated it with the ground," Beg said, "our worries magnified a thousand fold."

In addition to the sheer face, there was a mushroom of snow on an outcropping 100 ft above HumarÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s position. The only foothold was where he was clinging to the mountain by a small rope and an ice screw. Fresh snowfall made that mushroom an avalanche waiting for a triggering action, such as the wash or noise from a helicopterÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s rotor.

While the helicopter needed to be light enough for HOGE, it had to be heavy enough to descend almost 10,000 ft in 10 min to keep Humar from freezing to death on the sling. The crews stripped the Lamas to bare essentials to reduce the weight, then prepared the sling rope.

They took off at about 1630. At 17,400 ft, they encountered clouds. Climbing further, they were almost in whiteout conditions. They finally decided to call off the effort for the day.

The next day, they could depart as early in the morning as possible. The air then would be denser. But the heavier air creates the downward flow of katabatic wind, which could be a big disadvantage. As the sun shines over a slope, the reverse happens and anabatic winds start blowing up the slope. The disadvantage there is the rising temperature would loosen the snow and increase the risk of an avalanche. The crews decided 30 min to 1 hr after sunrise would give them the maximum advantage. They planned to be in position when the sun had been below HumarÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s position for almost half an hour.

On Aug. 10, they reached the base camp at 0545. A layer of clouds still hid Humar, but the sun was shining below him. The Lamas took off, the crews expecting the anabatic wind to push the cloud layer up as they climbed.

Beg and Rana did a last hover check at 20,000 ft pressure altitude while Rehman and Din in the other Lama took the lead in searching for Humar. BegÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s helicopter was stable enough, but the power pedal went to the limit. The lead helicopter spotted Humar, then cleared out for Beg and Rana, who initiated the approach to a spot slightly off the point where Humar was. They kept the wind on their power pedal, since a headwind approach was impossible. They saw the area from a close angle and executed a go-around to come in again. Now they were committed.

They hovered again, stopping the helicopter with Humar at 9 oÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢clock, the power pedal fully in. Beg said it was becoming extremely hard to maintain heading as they were running out of tail-rotor authority. They began inching to the left. Beg said the collective pitch indicator was reading.98 (or 98 percent power being consumed), barely enough to pick up 150 lb.

As they inched in, the force of the anabatic wind grew. They stopped to keep the rotor tips from hitting the rock. The collective pitch indication had dropped to.95-.96, Beg said, and a bit of power pedal was still available. Beg saw through his sling mirror that Humar was trying to grab the sling rope by reaching out with his ice axe as far as he could, but it was too far.

At this point, Beg and Rana were taking quick turns, alternating with one on the controls and the other breathing oxygen to avoid hypoxia.

They didnÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t want to wear their oxygen masks for fear of the facepiece fogging up. Beg would hand the control to Rana and go on oxygen for about a minute, then Rana would do the same.

Rana, on the left side, had a better view of the rock face, and would tell Beg to stop movement when the snow started to blow just below the rotor disc. The outside air temperature was -8C (18F).

Beg pulled back, then moved back in and stopped short of the rock to swing the rope toward Humar. It was high-risk maneuver, but it worked. Humar grabbed the rope and clipped himself on. Rana, who then had the controls, said he felt a load on the collective. Humar gave the pilots a thumbs-up. Beg asked Rana to pull up.

HumarÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s weight should have equaled a collective pitch rise of.02-.03, but the pilots saw it rise almost twice as much. Now the helicopter was hovering with 100 percent power and still not lifting up.

"Sir it is not pulling out," Rana said.

Suddenly, the helicopter started to sink and vibrate. Beg thought theyÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢d entered vortex ring state and soon theyÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢d all be dead. Beg looked into the mirror and saw the sling rope in full tension.

"Oh God," he thought, "he probably has not been able to cut his rope."

When the aircraft sank again, Beg took the controls and moved the helicopter to the right to the rotor tips hitting the rock. He then felt "a pronounced jerk" and the helicopter felt light.

"Sir," Rana shouted, "I think he has dropped." That sent a cold wave down BegÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s spine, but just then he saw Humar swing to the right on the sling rope. He immediately moved the helicopter further right so Humar would not swing back and hit the rock face.

They were clear of the mountain, but Humar was swinging badly below. It took Beg awhile to stabilize him. He then asked Rehman in the other Lama to close in and see if Humar was all right. To Beg and RanaÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s relief, Rehman said Humar was fine and waving to him.

Beg established the required rate of descent and airspeed, then turned over the controls to Rana. Beg felt drained; Rana looked like he felt.

Source: www.aviationtoday.com

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## fatman17

Beg and Rana the 2 pilots

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## fatman17

Jet Ranger II

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## fatman17

Army aviation

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## fjavaid

"Sir it is not pulling out," Rana said.

Suddenly, the helicopter started to sink and vibrate. Beg thought theyÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢d entered vortex ring state and soon theyÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢d all be dead. Beg looked into the mirror and saw the sling rope in full tension.

"Oh God," he thought, "he probably has not been able to cut his rope."

When the aircraft sank again, Beg took the controls and moved the helicopter to the right to the rotor tips hitting the rock. He then felt "a pronounced jerk" and the helicopter felt light.

"Sir," Rana shouted, "I think he has dropped." That sent a cold wave down BegÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s spine, but just then he saw Humar swing to the right on the sling rope. He immediately moved the helicopter further right so Humar would not swing back and hit the rock face.

They were clear of the mountain, but Humar was swinging badly below. It took Beg awhile to stabilize him. He then asked Rehman in the other Lama to close in and see if Humar was all right. To Beg and RanaÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s relief, Rehman said Humar was fine and waving to him.

Beg established the required rate of descent and airspeed, then turned over the controls to Rana. Beg felt drained; Rana looked like he felt.

Source: www.aviationtoday.com[/QUOTE]

Can somebody shed some light on this about Heli becoming light again once it could not hv lift anymore ?


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## fatman17

Army Workhorses

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## fatman17

Short History of PAA 


Army Aviation Corps

Pakistan Army Aviation gained autonomy from Pakistan Air Force in 1958, and gained full corps status in 1977. Auster Mk 5 and Mk 6 were used at first. In 1957 60 O-1 Bird Dogs were delivered from US which mostly replaced the Austers, making two frontline Air Observation Post (AOP) squadrons possible. More O-1s were later assembled at Army's 503 Workshop at Dhaimal, eventualy producing 60 percent of the components locally. The Army also started maintaining its own aircraft as well after the aquisition of these aircraft. Army Aviation School opened in 1959. Some 18 Bell 47/ OH-13s joined the Army in 1964 after the helicopter trained Pakistan pilots returned from the USA. These aircraft allowed the formation of several composite units. These units were used during the 1965 Indo-Pakistan war for spotting, liason, and FAC. The Bell 47 is a grand old helicopter but it went out of production in 1973 and they have all but disappeared in the commercial world.

After the war Pakistan aquired 24 Alouette IIIs from Aerospatiale of France, some of them were assembled by the Army itself. These Alouettes have been joined by several others from different sources, including sixSA 315B Lamas from Romania in 1987. The Lamas are used for high-altitute operations in Siachin and Karakoram.

Medium-lift capability came with the procurement of 12 Mil Mi-8s. These were used in rescue and disaster operations in East Pakistan along with Alouette IIIs. Both of the types also saw some action during the War of 1971 in East Pakistan and were withdrawn from the theatre through Burma (Myanmar).

The US supplied six UH-1Hs as a gift for future disaster relief operations in 1973. In 1974 Iran donated 10 AB 205As. The same year Saab MFI-17s were inducted for training and liason. The initial batch numbered 115, of them 23 were delivered as complete aircraft the rest in kit form to be assembled at Risalpur. These aircraft are locally called Mushshak. The production of this type was transferred from Sweden to Kamra, Pakistan. In 1975 12 Bell 206Bs were aquired from USA, and few JetRangers III joined them a few years later.

In 1976 the Army aquired 32 Aerospatiale SA 330J Pumas, which formed two new squadrons, and boosted the assault and medium-lift capability. Pakistan Army's requirement for armed attack helicopter was fulfilled in 1985. Two squadrons with ten AH-1S Cobras each were formed. These squadrons also operate a few Bell 206s as scouts. In 1997 Pakistan doubled its Mil Mi-8 inventory by aquiring 12 more in the form of Mil Mi-17 from CIS, half of these are seems to be located at Quetta. The location of the rest is unknown. The Army also operates Rockwell Turbo Commander 690s, a sigle Commander MA Jetprop 840 for surveys. And a single McDonnell Douglas MD-500E for Inter-Service Intelligence.

The force services of Pakistan made a choice of Mi-171 helicopter for a long time as a principal helicopter of middle / heavy class in its fleet. Pakistan purchased the first batch of Mi-171 helicopters from Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant in 2001 to fulfil the needs of its army aviation and air forces. The helicopters has proven to be adequate in operation and got a high valuation from Pakistani users. Pakistan Anti-Narcotics Force (ANF) enriched its fleet with two Mi-171 helicopters of Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant in 2008. The UK agreed to donate two Mi-17 helicopters and a spares packageto the value of up to £6 million to the Pakistan Anti-Narcotics Force (ANF) tobe used for counter narcotics activity on the Pakistan/Afghan border. Funding for the gift was made available from Home Office capital budget for the Financial Year ending 31 March 2006. The helicopters provide the ANF with much needed independent aircapacity to help them conduct both operational and eradication related tasks. The UK had previously gifted Ml 17 helicopters to the Pakistan ANF in 1995. Both are out of service: one unfortunately crashed during the autumn 2005 earthquake, and the other was awaiting a major airframe overhaul. Without air assets, the ANF's ability to deploy effectively, and in a timely way is compromised.

On 24 September 2003, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of Bell 407 Helicopters as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $97 million. The Government of Pakistan requested a possible sale of 40 Bell 407 helicopters with commercial avionics package, support equipment, spare/repair parts, publications/technical data, personnel training/equipment, and U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support.

The proposed sale of Bell helicopters will have a significant impact on Pakistan's ability to secure its borders. At the same time, this technology poses no threat to the balance of power in the region. This proposed sale will have a dramatic impact on Pakistan's ability to support U.S. objectives in the Global War on Terror. The terrain along Pakistan's border is extremely rugged and difficult to secure. Its dense mountainous regions, rugged terrain and vast borders make it virtually impossible to secure without the mobility provided by aviation assets. Vehicle support is limited to utility trucks, and there is limited cross-country capability. The lack of mobility for observation, transportation and interdiction seriously limits Pakistan's ability to stop border-crossing violations. The addition of U.S. provided helicopters would add the following capabilities required for anti-terrorist and border security operations: (1) observation platforms to better patrol the mountainous border region, and (2) transportation platforms to move personnel to areas of suspected infiltrations.

In 2004, Pakistan and the US embarked on a long-term $235 million project to help build Army Aviation's capability. During the first phase of the project, Pakistan leased the helicopters while the US provided the resources, funding, training and support to help Pakistan establish a strong and reliable helicopter fleet. On 24 October 2007 the US formally handed over 26 Bell-412 helicopters and four completely refurbished Cobra helicopters to the Pakistan Army. US Ambassador Anne Patterson handed the helicopters over to Defence Secretary Kamran Rasool. Rasool thanked the US government and said that the induction of these helicopters into the army would significantly enhance their operational capabilities. Speaking at the formalising ceremony of the final acceptance and transfer of 25 Bell-412 helicopters to the army at Qasim Airbase, Patterson praised Pakistan Army Aviation and said that the induction of these helicopters would strengthen their efforts to fight extremism and bring peace and stability to the region. She said the day marked a new chapter in Army Aviation's history. "This event demonstrates the continued commitment of the US to cooperation with Pakistan," Patterson said. "Our military assistance program are for the long term. They are the foundation for cooperation and engagement, and a way to strengthen our bonds as partners and allies."

On October 8, 2005, at about 8:35 am, worst ever earthquake in this region, measuring 7.6 on Richter scale, hit Islamabad, remote and mountainous areas of Kashmir and Pakistan's North West Frontier Province. It was estimated that more than 74,000 people died and about were 100,000 severely injured. All Aviation assets of the Pakistan Army Aviation were mobilized for relief and rescue operations. It was one of the biggest rescue operation which was undertaken by air due to badly damaged and almost non-existence of the road links. During the month of October 2005, Army Aviation and other Pilots flew over 4,000 hours to evacuate more than 1,00,000 victims of earthquake. More than 141 helicopters including those from allied friendly countries joined the rescue effort to shift more than 12,00,000 injured people to the hospitals. Till April, 2005, the entire Aviation fleet of helicopters had flown for 12,500 hours in affected areas for delivery of relief goods and rescue of injured persons.

On September 26, 2008 the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of AH-1F Cobra helicopter refurbishment as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $115 million. The Government of Pakistan requested a possible sale of refurbishment and maintenance of eight AH-1F Cobra Helicopters. The Government of Pakistan has also requested warranties, system integration, spare and repairs parts, including transportation for the parts, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $115 million.

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## fatman17

Various types of helos and light aircraft

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## fatman17

Mi17 Overhaul Group


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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## Inception-06

nomi007 said:


>


Where I can buy this models in Pakistan ?

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## fatman17

Try army or airforce museums

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## fatman17

Cobra gunship


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## fatman17

Latest Z10 gunship


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> Latest Z10 gunship


they are still here or gone back?

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## Thorough Pro

Probably the Climber was hooked to heli sling as well as retainer/rescue rope still attached the mountain, the later either snapped or the screw came out of rock to make the heli feel light/un restrained. 




fjavaid said:


> "Sir it is not pulling out," Rana said.
> 
> Suddenly, the helicopter started to sink and vibrate. Beg thought theyÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢d entered vortex ring state and soon theyÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢d all be dead. Beg looked into the mirror and saw the sling rope in full tension.
> 
> "Oh God," he thought, "he probably has not been able to cut his rope."
> 
> When the aircraft sank again, Beg took the controls and moved the helicopter to the right to the rotor tips hitting the rock. He then felt "a pronounced jerk" and the helicopter felt light.
> 
> "Sir," Rana shouted, "I think he has dropped." That sent a cold wave down BegÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s spine, but just then he saw Humar swing to the right on the sling rope. He immediately moved the helicopter further right so Humar would not swing back and hit the rock face.
> 
> They were clear of the mountain, but Humar was swinging badly below. It took Beg awhile to stabilize him. He then asked Rehman in the other Lama to close in and see if Humar was all right. To Beg and RanaÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s relief, Rehman said Humar was fine and waving to him.
> 
> Beg established the required rate of descent and airspeed, then turned over the controls to Rana. Beg felt drained; Rana looked like he felt.
> 
> Source: www.aviationtoday.com



Can somebody shed some light on this about Heli becoming light again once it could not hv lift anymore ?[/QUOTE]


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## Signalian

Captain Naseer Ullah Khan Babar earned his first solo on 8th September 1953. Babar established himself as a daring pilot from the very start of his flying career. 

Brig. Mahmud remembers an interesting incident of those days;

_"Babar was sent one day to Sialkot to develop a strip, later when rest of the flight reached there they found the strip to be small. Any how after landing with great difficulty when asked about the length, he replied that the strip had another 200 yards of length available but it has a 90 degrees turn". _

Captain Babar left a deep mark of his boldness and courage wherever he went.

He later commanded the first Rotary Wing Squadron (3 Squadron). 

He earned his first Sitara-i-Jur'at as an OH-13 pilot in Chhamb area during 1965 War when he rounded fifty-five (55) Indian soldiers as Prisoners Of War and making them march for miles. Incidentally during the entire episode Lieutenant Colonel Babar was not even carrying his personal weapon.

He is also remembered for his assertiveness and dedication with which he led the aviation contingent in East Pakistan during Cyclone Relief Operation of 1969-70. He earned his second Sitara-i-Jur 'at during 1971 War while leading the attack of 111 Infantry Brigade. 
He rose to the rank of Major General. He later entered politics and served as Governor of NWFP, he has also been a Federal Minister for Interior.

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## fatman17

Inquiry finds fault with Mi-17 repair journey

By Fasihur Rehman Khan

August 20, 2016

ISLAMABAD: A preliminary Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) inquiry into the recent Punjab government Mi-17 helicopter crash in Afghanistan en route Russia points out several flaws in planning and execution of the repair and maintenance journey that stretched hundreds of miles, contents of the report available to The News reveal. 

“An elaborate electronic system for checking metal fatigue (a weakness that develops in metal structures that are used repeatedly) for helicopters must be present within the maintenance circles,” the report says, stating clearly that how some critical safety tools are overlooked in Pakistan. “It is possible that the prime minister could have used this helicopter since it was engaged in VVIP duties,” the report notes with concern. 

The inquiry points out that instead of ferrying the helicopter (flying) it should have been airlifted through cargo plane, and air space of Afghanistan should have been avoided. Even at the time of first delivery of these helicopters in 1996, the airspace of Afghanistan was avoided, and helicopters flew through Iran, the report states. 

The report notes that since the first delivery of these Mi-17 helicopters from Russia in 1996, ferry flights (flying a helicopter to or from one base to another for repair, maintenance) were “discontinued as these were found too cumbersome logistically, uneconomical and time consuming.” 

The Punjab government helicopter Mi-17 on its way to Russia for maintenance had crash landed in Afghanistan on August 4. All the seven crew members, including one Russian engineer, were taken hostage by Afghan Taliban of Logar province. After hectic efforts by Pakistan’s civil and military officials the crew members returned to Pakistan on August 12. 

“The only time when helicopters were ferried from Russia was in 1996. Once the first batch was inducted, yours truly (reporting officer) was amongst the crew of first ferry in August 1996. Even at that time when Afghanistan was a friendly country, we avoided overflying. Instead flew through Iran”. “Since then ferry flights were discontinued as these were found too cumbersome logistically, uneconomical and time consuming. Instead all later deliveries were either on an -12 4s (4×helicopters) or IL-76 (2×helicopters). 

“Most of the Army helicopters are overhauled at 503 aviation workshop (in Pakistan). In the past when the facility was not fully ready or if due to capacity constraints, helicopters were airlifted on cargo aircrafts,” the report notes. 

“The loss of rudder control (helicopter flight controls) makes it seem like a fault pertaining to the tail rotor. It could have experienced metal fatigue aggravated by the high wind; one cannot say with any certainty without the inquiry by aviation experts being complete,” the report states further. 

MI-17 helicopters, civil and military, were first introduced in 1981 by former Soviet Union (now Russia). Around 60 countries of the world including Pakistan use this air machine. 

Since their first time inclusion in Pakistan’s civil and military air fleet in 1996, there have been eight crashes in total, the largest crash involved civilian passengers. Seven people including ambassadors of Norway and Philippines died in Naltar Valley Gilgit Baltistan in 2015.


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## SQ8

They tried to save on costs because the money was to be used for VIP car purchases maybe?

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## nomi007

PAA try to get some old ch-46 helos from usa
good for rescue and relief operations

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## Signalian

nomi007 said:


> PAA try to get some old ch-46 helos from usa
> good for rescue and relief operations


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> PAA try to get some old ch-46 helos from usa
> good for rescue and relief operations


why we look for old scrap always sir ?

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## fjavaid

Thorough Pro said:


> Probably the Climber was hooked to heli sling as well as retainer/rescue rope still attached the mountain, the later either snapped or the screw came out of rock to make the heli feel light/un restrained.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can somebody shed some light on this about Heli becoming light again once it could not hv lift anymore ?


[/QUOTE]

Hmmm ....thnks
...yeah could be the case


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## nomi007




----------



## Inception-06



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## Super Falcon

Ulla said:


> View attachment 339177


This halo should be used for VVIP army chief transportation AW 129

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## muhammadali233

Ulla said:


> View attachment 339177


pic taken in italy?
the newest bird in PAA. Masahallah
16-062
will be Inducted this month i guess.
8 more to follow.



Super Falcon said:


> This halo should be used for VVIP army chief transportation AW 129


*AW 139
not necessarily
replacement for older bell 412/206/407/UH-1H and other older utility choppers in service,like alouette 3, lama etc.

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## fatman17

Pakistan Army Helicopter in Bhimber

PostSat Oct 01, 2016 9:03 pm

Pakistan Army helicopter probably Mi-171 serial number 58643 at a village in Bhimber near the Line of Control (LoC) photographed on October 1, 2016.

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## fatman17

New bie

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 340182
> New bie



Check my post please, its already posted scroll above !

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## Syeda Novaira Ishaq

Pak army men helicopter pilot k leye kea criteria he?


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## khanasifm

Per Allen warren they were ordered by pakaf for Sar I guess not


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## Sulman Badshah



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## nomi007

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 340352


IF we select aw-139m

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## TaimiKhan

PAA Z-10 pilot with HMD

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## khanasifm

Aw139 is a European heli success story with customer in military, ems, oil and gas industry etc a true multi role and capability


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## nomi007



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## hassan1



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## Inception-06

"helicopter is land on pindi bhattian motorway. for some help and rescue"

MI-17 Lands on Pakistani Motorway, folk and public shouts: "Pakistan Fauj Zindabad, Allah Hu Akbar"

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## fatman17

Pakistan orders SAR AW139s in July 2016 from LEONARDO - FINMECCANICA. This order for unknown number of helicopters was designated for the Pakistan Airforce. 

On August 4, 2016, LEONARDO - FINMECCANICA revealed an additional order for AW139 medium transport helicopters for the Pakistan Army. Once again the quantity involved is unknown. 
The AW139 has completed a series of hot - and - high trials in Pakistan. They were conducted in the central desert area of Multan where temperatures touched 49*C , and in the northern areas of the Karakoram range where it demonstrated it's hot and high capabilities successfully.

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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan orders SAR AW139s in July 2016 from LEONARDO - FINMECCANICA. This order for unknown number of helicopters was designated for the Pakistan Airforce.
> 
> On August 4, 2016, LEONARDO - FINMECCANICA revealed an additional order for AW139 medium transport helicopters for the Pakistan Army. Once again the quantity involved is unknown.
> The AW139 has completed a series of hot - and - high trials in Pakistan. They were conducted in the central desert area of Multan where temperatures touched 49*C , and in the northern areas of the Karakoram range where it demonstrated it's hot and high capabilities successfully.



3 different orders of AW 139 have been given to Leonardo 
1. VIP's 
2. SAR Role 
3. Medivac and transport role 

It is pretty good helicopter ... and have been tested in Pakistan toughest terrains including near baltoro

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## Thunder Bolt

*Z10*

*From Bhawalpur*

*Shooting range





*


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## Sulman Badshah



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## fatman17

70mm rocket casing on Z10K

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## fatman17

Note the shoulder armour protection

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## nomi007

better color scheme

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## Army research

nomi007 said:


> better color scheme


Wings removed


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## nomi007

Army research said:


> Wings removed

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## Zarvan

nomi007 said:


> better color scheme



It still lacks powerful engine. Until WZ-16 arrives going for this is a little risky.


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## nomi007

PAA kindly consider this helo
for future replacement of old helos

and consider possible joint venture as well








its z-11wb

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## Zarvan

First Picture of New YJ-12A Anti-Ship #Missile During Launch Revealed

















Red Arrow series anti-tank missiles









M20 SRBM

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## fatman17

UH1 of ministry of interior

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## fatman17

Y12 light transport

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## Khafee

Army research said:


> Blur name too please


Pls delete the pic in the msg you replied to.

Thank You

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## Khafee

Game.Invade said:


> Why should the picture be deleted ? Blurring the name tag doesn't do any good to our gentleman.


As a serving officer, kindly do not reveal his identity online. Please feel free to post his pic again after Blurring his name. 

Thank You.

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## Army research

Khafee said:


> Pls delete the pic in the msg you replied to.
> 
> Thank You


Don't get it ?


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## AMG_12

Khafee said:


> As a serving officer, kindly do not reveal his identity online. Please feel free to post his pic again after Blurring his name.
> 
> Thank You.


Check it now.


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## Khafee

Game.Invade said:


> Check it now.


Where?


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## AMG_12

Khafee said:


> Where?


I edited the same post.

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## Khafee

Army research said:


> Don't get it ?


When you quoted him, his message with the pic was attached, so in reality there were two pics available, the original one, and yours.



Game.Invade said:


> I edited the same post.


Kindly, re-post the pic again, as the original message is waiting a Moderators approval. 

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Best Regards

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## AMG_12

Undergoing training at the Mil Moscow Helicopters Plant.

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## Khafee

Game.Invade said:


> Undergoing training at the Mil Moscow Helicopters Plant.



Thank You for your efforts and understanding.

Best Regards

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## nomi007

any report about
t-129


----------



## happybirthdaytoyou

Two WZ 10 Heli spotted in latest Army Drill in Khaipur

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## Khan_patriot

Pictures ???


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## Banglar Bir

ANOTHER FEATHER IN THE PAAs CAP. CONGRATULATIONS ONCE AGAIN.

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## Shiji

Here

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## Aqeel Imran

So whats the point of this post.? can you explain your intentions.?


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## Mentee

happybirthdaytoyou said:


> Two WZ 10 Heli spotted in latest Army Drill in Khaipur


I heard that army guy saying that it has been used in operation Zrb e Azb

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## Aqeel Imran

ok..

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## Banglar Bir

AGAINST SURGICAL STRIKES, INSTEAD.


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## GreenFalcon

Yeah I saw them in the war games a little while ago, they looked beautiful. Buraaq drones were also flown.

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## Aqeel Imran

There were no surgical strikes... these may be used in operations but when there were no S S then how could they use it against it?


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## Shiji

Aqeel Imran said:


> So whats the point of this post.? can you explain your intentions.?


Intentions are to inform people who take interest in this sort of thing that Z10 have been either inducted or passed basic trials and now moved to advance ones. 
Since they are being deployed on excercises which are used to prep for war so yah that is kind of big news, but only for the people that take interest.

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## Aqeel Imran

Noted.!!

what about drones? were they also being used by PAK ARMY.?

any other info.?


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## Ghazwa e Hind

Burraqs and Z-10s are used in this exercise and both weapon systems showed their excellence. A strong message is served to the enemies that we can punish our adversaries in both limited and unleashed wars.

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## graphican

Has Pakistan formally inducted Z-10s? We see them flying so are these being flown by Pakistani pilots or by Chinese? If they are flown by Chinese in Pakistani exercise at the Indian border, that means yet another level of cooperation between China and Pakistan.

*Anybody informed please?*


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## happybirthdaytoyou

Shiji said:


> Intentions are to inform people who take interest in this sort of thing that Z10 have been either inducted or passed basic trials and now moved to advance ones.
> Since they are being deployed on excercises which are used to prep for war so yah that is kind of big news, but only for the people that take interest.



This means that IMO the numbers is not limited to 2

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## R Wing

Saw the Z-10s and the Buraq live. Quite amazing.

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## Ghazwa e Hind

Can anyone post here the link of Burraq's video?


----------



## Muhammad Omar



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## S.U.R.B.

graphican said:


> Has Pakistan formally inducted Z-10s? We see them flying so are these being flown by Pakistani pilots or by Chinese? If they are flown by Chinese in Pakistani exercise at the Indian border, that means yet another level of cooperation between China and Pakistan.
> 
> *Anybody informed please?*



The Pakistan Army Aviation pilots.
Training process of the pilots and staff had started in 2015 and it has met its completion earlier this year.

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## Shiji

happybirthdaytoyou said:


> This means that IMO the numbers is not limited to 2


I could say that but it would be more of a speculation rather than reality.
Multiple posibilities
1. Maybe we have more inducted hence used to incorporate in Pakistan Armies plan through an excercise.
2. Maybe there was an excercise that was gonna happen and the Bosses at Aviation and MO decided that we can test/trial this system even better in real combat situation before induction.
Hard to say.


----------



## Dazzler

This is another hint that PA has decided to induct Z-10s albeit with some improvements.

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## graphican

Dazzler said:


> This is another hint that PA has decided to induct Z-10s albeit with some improvements.



A bird in hand is better than two in the bush.

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## Windjammer

*Notice how quite the Z-10 is, you virtually only hear it once it's overhead.*




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/798806199088992256

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## Skyliner

Windjammer said:


> *Notice how quite the Z-10 is, you virtually only hear it once it's overhead.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/798806199088992256


Sir is there extended clip available, I kept waiting n waiting for tanks to hit target but clip ended!


----------



## HAIDER

The Cobra Gunship and Z10 helicopters fired missiles having six kilometres range and successfully engaged the targets.

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## Dazzler

HAIDER said:


> The Cobra Gunship and Z10 helicopters fired missiles having six kilometres range and successfully engaged the targets.



Interesting, the Two-1 and 2A can only engage targets within 5 kms, but the Z-10 with AKD 10 can take out targets up to 11 km.

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## HAIDER

Dazzler said:


> Interesting, the Two-1 and 2A can only engage targets within 5 kms, but the Z-10 with AKD 10 can take out targets up to 11 km.


Can carry 8 at time .

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## Beast

Windjammer said:


> *Notice how quite the Z-10 is, you virtually only hear it once it's overhead.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/798806199088992256


Indeed, another feature of the so called stealth

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## Dazzler

Beast said:


> Indeed, another feature of the so called stealth



Yes, it is actually twice as silent as its the Z-9EC Dauphin and much quieter than the loud mouth AH-1F cobra. Man those cobras are true screamers.

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## Beast

Dazzler said:


> Yes, it is actually twice as silent as its the Z-9EC Dauphin and much quieter than the loud mouth AH-1F cobra. Man those cobras are true screamers.


More than a 100 of these has enter service with PLA. 

Cobra can't really compare to WZ-10. One is a product of 70s and another belongs to the 2000s

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## Side-Winder



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## GDP Adil Khan Niazi

Z-10 Flying alongside the Cobras in Exercise #RaadUlBarq

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## The Diplomat

Beast said:


> Indeed, another feature of the so called stealth


I thought it was still visible on radar?
Does it disguise it self making the helicopter look smaller than it really is or something?

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## Areesh

I think it is pretty much confirmed that PA has opted for Z10 helicopters.



Dazzler said:


> This is another hint that PA has decided to induct Z-10s albeit with some improvements.



Would improvements include MMW radar?

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## Beast

Lahore_PAF said:


> I thought it was still visible on radar?
> Does it disguise it self making the helicopter look smaller than it really is or something?


It's shaping has some minor RCS reduction features but no ram coating. But combine with low level flying penetration and its low noise emission. It can give enemy a nasty surprise by firing standoff missile 5-6km away. Especially at night, z-10 with night version and HMS are very effective nightops gunship.

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## SSGPA1

This is indeed great news. Now Pakistan has option to buy either Turkish or Chinese heli.

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## tarrar

So, it is almost certain that Pakistan will go for WZ10 after the shared problems with WZ10 are fixed & a stronger engine is introduced for the WZ10. Also WZ10 should carry a bigger rocket launcher than the one it is currently using which is a small. Probably the problem will be solved once WZ10 gets a stronger & better performing engine.

I just can't wait to see the final version of WZ10.

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## fatman17

Ex Raad ul Burq

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## hassan1



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## Beast

tarrar said:


> So, it is almost certain that Pakistan will go for WZ10 after the shared problems with WZ10 are fixed & a stronger engine is introduced for the WZ10. Also WZ10 should carry a bigger rocket launcher than the one it is currently using which is a small. Probably the problem will be solved once WZ10 gets a stronger & better performing engine.
> 
> I just can't wait to see the final version of WZ10.


PA has no mention of weak and underpowered engine problem. Same as PLA which has inducted more than a hundred in service. So same to say this configuration is almost the acceptance version.

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## TaimiKhan

Beast said:


> PA has no mention of weak and underpowered engine problem. Same as PLA which has inducted more than a hundred in service. So same to say this configuration is almost the acceptance version.



For desert & plains areas of Sindh / Punjab, Z-10 may not have much of a problem even if it carries 8 ATGMs they might be enough. But real issue would be what load it can take at higher altitude areas especially with respect to our COIN ops & limited areas in hilly locations of AJK. On the other side some new details / pics of Turkish ATAK getting tested in Pakistan. 

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-army-aviation-corps-updated.45739/page-210#post-8919002

But then again both are different platforms, one is medium class and the other is light class helicopter.

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## Beast

TaimiKhan said:


> For desert & plains areas of Sindh / Punjab, Z-10 may not have much of a problem even if it carries 8 ATGMs they might be enough. But real issue would be what load it can take at higher altitude areas especially with respect to our COIN ops & limited areas in hilly locations of AJK. On the other side some new details / pics of Turkish ATAK getting tested in Pakistan.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-army-aviation-corps-updated.45739/page-210#post-8919002
> 
> But then again both are different platforms, one is medium class and the other is light class helicopter.


Is there any detail of PA tested Z-10 in highl attitude area?

And is there any photo of T-129 gunship dangling with 16 ATGM?


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## mingle

Baby is Coming


----------



## Thorough Pro

Titanium Tub



fatman17 said:


> Note the shoulder armour protection


----------



## fatman17

Mi17-IV over lahore

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## TaimiKhan

Beast said:


> Is there any detail of PA tested Z-10 in highl attitude area?
> 
> And is there any photo of T-129 gunship dangling with 16 ATGM?



First of all i did not compare the ATGMs of both platforms, or how much each can carry. So i don't understand why you asking ATAK can carry 16ATGMs or not. Plus as i said both platforms can't be compared directly as there is lil bit difference in their specs, plus even if you compare them pic vs pic we can clearly see the WZ-10 is bigger machine. If ATAK in its short duration got tested in hot and cold alltitudes in Pakistan then i am pretty sure that WZ-10 has been tested extensively, rather i was told that its performance at higher altitudes when compared with Cobra was much much better, but then again it can't be compared with a Cobra. And the WZ-10 being shown at 23rd march pararde and now at this integrated exercise clearly means that PA is happy with it and wants to induct it. 

My only concern / point is how much weapons these platforms can carry at high altitudes, simple. I ain't saying WZ-10 is inferior as its not and personally i am happy to see it in PA colors as this was my wish from the day i saw it.

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## That Guy

Pakistan has been testing the Z-10 extensively. I believe, if these pictures are real and recent, they may be from the 3 that the Chinese sent to Pakistan for trial and testing purposes.



Dazzler said:


> This is another hint that PA has decided to induct Z-10s albeit with some improvements.


Or further testing, let's not jump to conclusions here, over some pictures without any sort of context.


----------



## Beast

That Guy said:


> Pakistan has been testing the Z-10 extensively. I believe, if these pictures are real and recent, they may be from the 3 that the Chinese sent to Pakistan for trial and testing purposes.
> 
> 
> Or further testing, let's not jump to conclusions here, over some pictures without any sort of context.


True but very high chance it will be inducted. If PA has no intention to induct them. They will not give it such a high coverage of it with footage and video of it during war exercise


----------



## STEVEN囧




----------



## That Guy

Beast said:


> True but very high chance it will be inducted. If PA has no intention to induct them. They will not give it such a high coverage of it with footage and video of it during war exercise


I wouldn't go that far. While it is likely that PA will induct the Z-10 (after thorough testing and possible customization), it's hard to actually gauge PA's actual interest over the Z-10 in the short term. With recent Turkish-Pakistani talks over the T-129, The Z-10 may face still competition.


----------



## Beast

That Guy said:


> I wouldn't go that far. While it is likely that PA will induct the Z-10 (after thorough testing and possible customization), it's hard to actually gauge PA's actual interest over the Z-10 in the short term. With recent Turkish-Pakistani talks over the T-129, The Z-10 may face still competition.


I am not worry over T-129 gunship competition. First? It uses American turboshaft. Turkish homegrown are far from materialized. With racist and anti Pakistan trump elected as US president. It will further a risk to go with American components. I am also confident with the level of sophistication Z-10 has,to compete with the best. As one forumer commented how quiet Z-10 flies and you only heard it when it fly pass you. This is critical when carry out insurgent strike when element of surprise is critical.

The HMS of Z-10 only drawback is it heavy weight. But other than that it is supposed to ease pilot workload and enable target acquisition, engagement, all can be carry out by the HMS itself. The only thing the joystick need to do is to pull the trigger.


----------



## MULUBJA

Beast said:


> More than a 100 of these has enter service with PLA.
> 
> Cobra can't really compare to WZ-10. One is a product of 70s and another belongs to the 2000s


 
So seventy product remains as it is for 30 years? Your Z 10 has double the wight of LCH and still has a weaker engine. The problem with you guys is that rather than iproving your product , you troll the excellent products of others. Be humble and look how can you improve Z10 which is very very poor in carrying weight to high altitude.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Hope Pakistan will induct Z-10 Z-19 in Balochistan and Z11WB for Patrolling


----------



## SSGcommandoPAK

Compilation of all the engagements . 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1267027460026922

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## khanasifm

Ba-9 vs hell fire

Hell fire has 8km range vs 6km for ba-9 but still better than Tow II 3.75 km


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ahgPtOjNVT0/VGbEUlEeweI/AAAAAAAAkhA/TnRuJHYMsWk/s1600/Blue+Arrow-9+(BA-9)+Air+To+Surface+Missile+china++(3).jpg


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## khanasifm

comparing 1960s Ah-1 with Z10 ???


----------



## RAAJ大和

Happy to see Pakistan is upgrading there old Attack Helicopters.


----------



## That Guy

Beast said:


> I am not worry over T-129 gunship competition. First? It uses American turboshaft. Turkish homegrown are far from materialized. With racist and anti Pakistan trump elected as US president. It will further a risk to go with American components. I am also confident with the level of sophistication Z-10 has,to compete with the best. As one forumer commented how quiet Z-10 flies and you only heard it when it fly pass you. This is critical when carry out insurgent strike when element of surprise is critical.
> 
> The HMS of Z-10 only drawback is it heavy weight. But other than that it is supposed to ease pilot workload and enable target acquisition, engagement, all can be carry out by the HMS itself. The only thing the joystick need to do is to pull the trigger.


That's nice to hear and read, but I'll leave it up to PA to decide what is best for their requirements.


----------



## SQ8

That Guy said:


> That's nice to hear and read, but I'll leave it up to PA to decide what is best for their requirements.


What else do you expect from a Kamov design? They are pretty good helis if albeit underpowered due to R&D remaining on a more powerful engine. 
The T-129 still has a future if the AH-1Z deal falls through for any reason; the Turks have suggested alternative engine types.

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## fatman17

PAA would like to integrate both TOW and Hellfire missiles to the Z10 which to me is one of the two roadblocks, the other being the engine.

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## Khafee

fatman17 said:


> PAA would like to integrate both TOW and Hellfire missiles to the Z10 which to me is one of the two roadblocks, the other being the engine.



Doesn't China offer any alternatives? Secondly can't the engine be upgraded?


----------



## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> PAA would like to integrate both TOW and Hellfire missiles to the Z10 which to me is one of the two roadblocks, the other being the engine.


Why not get Turkish missiles ? I meant the UMTAS. Also Z-10 has engine issues I think until now MI-28 is our best bet



Khafee said:


> Doesn't China offer any alternatives? Secondly can't the engine be upgraded?


China is already working on engine called WZ-16 but it's taking way to long @cirr @Beast @Deino

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## Beast

Zarvan said:


> Why not get Turkish missiles ? I meant the UMTAS. Also Z-10 has engine issues I think until now MI-28 is our best bet
> 
> 
> China is already working on engine called WZ-16 but it's taking way to long @cirr @Beast @Deino


Zarvan , your biased against Chinese seems too high. Keep repeating the same nonsense of Z-10 engine issues. Are you hired by CIA? Turkish missile is inferior compare to Chinese one and I do not know why you want to Intergrate it? Just the range alone, Chinese one has far longer engagement range than Turkish one.

Mi-28 engine barks like a thunderbolt. Why would u want to install it? The engine on Z-10 is much modern and is sufficient for its need.

Ask turkey to come up with a competitive AESA export radar before U think they have cutting edge weapon than Chinese.

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## Zarvan

Beast said:


> Zarvan , your biased against Chinese seems too high. Keep repeating the same nonsense of Z-10 engine issues. Are you hired by CIA? Turkish missile is inferior compare to Chinese one and I do not know why you want to Intergrate it? Just the range alone, Chinese one has far longer engagement range than Turkish one.
> 
> Mi-28 engine barks like a thunderbolt. Why would u want to install it?
> 
> Ask turkey to come up with a competitive AESA export radar before U think they have cutting edge weapon than Chinese.


I have no bias but can't support a machine which fails to perform in trials just because it's from friend China. We like many things about Z-10 but engine is a major issue here that is why no further order has been given by Pakistan Army. You have great Air Defence systems and therefore we are buying them. We would get things which pass our tests no matter which country they belong to


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## Beast

Zarvan said:


> I have no bias but can't support a machine which fails to perform in trials just because it's from friend China. We like many things about Z-10 but engine is a major issue here that is why no further order has been given by Pakistan Army. You have great Air Defence systems and therefore we are buying them. We would get things which pass our tests no matter which country they belong to


Indeed you are biased. You are basing many of your conclusion based on religions and favoritism and hearsay.

When I am asking you for prove and you have provided is nothing but opinion and non authentic link. As if I lie regarding the range of our ATGM compare to Turkish one. Our ATGM is proven many times by Iraq army on their drone in battle against ISIS with many precise score on target. Why would u want to Intergrate an inferior to replace a better? Tell me? Just becos Turkish is your religion brother and no other merit, right?

This kind of blind fanatic is bad for progress of Pakistan. Pakistan need to rid off traitors like you which is doing harm to Pakistan modernization. Are u a RAW agent in disguise?

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## Zarvan

Beast said:


> Indeed you are biased. You are basing many of your conclusion based on religions and favoritism and hearsay.
> 
> When I am asking you for prove and you have provided is nothing but opinion and non authentic link. As if I lie regarding the range of our ATGM compare to Turkish one. Our ATGM is proven many times by Iraq army on their drone in battle against ISIS with many precise score on target. Why would u want to Intergrate an inferior to replace a better? Tell me? Just becos Turkish is your religion brother and no other merit, right?
> 
> This kind of blind fanatic is bad for progress of Pakistan. Pakistan need to rid off traitors like you which is doing harm to Pakistan modernization. Are u a RAW agent in disguise?


I am not basing it on anything. VT 4 failed the tests in Pakistan. We like most things about Z-10 but main thing is engine in machine and that is where issue is. We are waiting for a Z-10 which has WZ 16 engine but China is taking to much time doing that. We like HQ 9 and HQ 16 and we are buying them. We may also buy VN 1 and VN 12 IFV.

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## fatman17

Please don't get personal. Thanks

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## The Eagle

@Zarvan @Beast

First of all, no need to get into name calling and personal contest.

None is here undermining the bird or Chinese Engineering but seems like one said it straight forward based upon hearsay or not the official statement while the other one misunderstood and take it against the nationalism.

Z-10s were handed over to PAA for test flying and evaluation and the same went under trials in different conditions/terrains as per the role of Bird and were returned to China for necessary changes, modifications and enhancements as per need of Pakistan.

However, during the same process, someone (not official) disclosed that beside the required changes as per need which are not the Technical faults at all, I must clarify, there was slightly heating issue and could be due to required tweak of engine being faced in specific hot areas though could be as might the Bird wouldn't be designed for such condition. Although, the logic about necessary changes and required modification carries more weight than engine issue alone as the bird is already being inducted in large numbers by China herself for the designated role.

However, it is to be noted that, lastly 2 Z-10s not just flew but took part in Ex-Ra'ad Al Barq few days back and were seen along with Cobras on the firing range so if the Bird was not capable or up-to the mark then wouldn't be shown like this during exercise of such high level.






Just my Opinion.

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## Naif al Hilali

The Eagle said:


> ...However, during the same process, someone (not official) disclosed that beside the required changes as per need which are not the Technical faults at all, I must clarify, there was slightly heating issue and could be due to required tweak of engine being faced in specific hot areas though could be as might the Bird wouldn't be designed for such condition. Although, the logic about necessary changes and required modification carries more weight than engine issue alone as the bird is already being inducted in large numbers by China herself for the designated role.


Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

As Oscar has said, the problem with the Z-10 is the power-to-weight ratio.

CAIC Z-10: 
16,000 lbs. / 2700 shp. = @ 6 lbs./shp
20,000 ft. ceiling claimed (highly dubious)

AH1F Modernized: 
10,000 lbs. / 1,800 shp. = @ 5.5 lbs./shp
12,000+ ft. ceiling

TAI T-129: 
11,000 lbs. / 2,700 shp. = @ 4 lbs./shp
20,000 ft. ceiling or thereabouts

AH1Z:
18,500 lbs. / 3,600shp. = @ 5 lbs./shp.
20,000+ ft. ceiling

The Turkish were still not satisfied with the hot-and-high performance of the T-129, specially after the ballast that was added to overcome a slight problem. They need the high-altitude performance to combat the Kurds in the mountains, and finally approved the T-129 for hot-and-high after extensive testing this year.

Having seen the Z-10's demo, I think it can be safely said that it can use another 500-900 shp. Pakistan will probably use the old AH-1S/Fs in the mountains (operationally), but still the Z-10 will be barely adequate in the plains. I doubt it will be able to turn and run in the summers of the Lahore and Bahawalpur theaters (40-50 Celsius temperatures).

Anyway, just my observation. The Z-10 sure is a beautiful machine and if the reports about the satisfactory performance of the avionics and munitions are true, might be a worthwhile addition to the armory. 

Hifz u kum Allah

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## princefaisal

Its better to induct Z-10 and T-129 both in equal numbers with TOT, as the total number of attack helicopters required would be much more than 50.


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## Sulman Badshah

AW 139

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 353494
> Just a nice pic


more better

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## Naif al Hilali

Apropos translation of the ticker in the 2nd photo:

"Social Media is a way to spread lies; Don't lend your ears to it - Dr. Asif Kirmani"


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## Inception-06

nomi007 said:


> more better



what a shame !

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## Indus Falcon

Ulla said:


> what a shame !


Not at all. He is king after all, and has the right to squander taxpayers hard earned money as he pleases.

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## nomi007

1st AH-1Z finally arrived in karachi

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/801468475327782912

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## The Eagle

Above picture was shared here and now undermentioned article that quotes Russian Embassador in Pakistan as the sale of Mi-35 is approved by Russia and now the matter is under discussion by both sides w.r.t technical aspects. So seems like well connected. 

http://dailypakistan.com.pk/islamabad/01-Dec-2016/486536

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## fatman17

Over the Thar desert

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## Windjammer



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I have a *gut feeling* (i.e. baseless opinion) that in 2017 we might hear talk of updating the PAA's transport and utility helicopter fleet.

In the past year, the MoDP told Romania that it was interested in Puma helicopters, but the only Puma program in place in Romania is the Airbus Helicopters H215 Super Puma program.

The Super Puma is a low-cost simplified version of the Cougar and Caracal, the expected flyaway unit cost is in the $10-15m range. The lift capability of the Super Puma is comparable to that of the Mi-17.

Elsewhere, the Turks will also be gearing up for the local production of the S-70 Black Hawk, for which they have export licenses (aimed at countries with 'not so good ties with the U.S.'). The flyaway unit cost of the S-70i, a simplified export version of the Black Hawk platform, is in the $10-15m range as well.

Interesting note ... the S-70's GE turboshaft engine is from the same direct family as the GE turboshaft engine used on the AH-1Z Viper. I think a mix of new and used/surplus Black Hawks could be possible area of discussion.

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## fatman17

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I have a *gut feeling* (i.e. baseless opinion) that in 2017 we might hear talk of updating the PAA's transport and utility helicopter fleet.
> 
> In the past year, the MoDP told Romania that it was interested in Puma helicopters, but the only Puma program in place in Romania is the Airbus Helicopters H215 Super Puma program.
> 
> The Super Puma is a low-cost simplified version of the Cougar and Caracal, the expected flyaway unit cost is in the $10-15m range. The lift capability of the Super Puma is comparable to that of the Mi-17.
> 
> Elsewhere, the Turks will also be gearing up for the local production of the S-70 Black Hawk, for which they have export licenses (aimed at countries with 'not so good ties with the U.S.'). The flyaway unit cost of the S-70i, a simplified export version of the Black Hawk platform, is in the $10-15m range as well.
> 
> Interesting note ... the S-70's GE turboshaft engine is from the same direct family as the GE turboshaft engine used on the AH-1Z Viper. I think a mix of new and used/surplus Black Hawks could be possible area of discussion.



At some point it will have to undergo a major overhaul or upgrade because of the high usage in the military ops.


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## fatman17

Don't expect any US made helos to be inducted in the short to medium term except for the AH1Z contract. Even attrition losses are not being replaced like the 2 Bell 412EP losses. French, Chinese and Russian types could be inducted including used but upgraded ones.


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## Windjammer



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## mingle

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 360473


According to Usman Shabir PDF PAA pilots who flying these Z10 Helis at the moment they r very happy with Avionics and payload plus there is no Engine power issue at all According to pilot its a fantactic machine to fly .


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## razgriz19

mingle said:


> According to Usman Shabir PDF PAA pilots who flying these Z10 Helis at the moment they r very happy with Avionics and payload plus there is no Engine power issue at all According to pilot its a fantactic machine to fly .



And what are they comparing it to?
They are probably used to flying cobras, anything is a "fastastic machine" compare to that bird. 
Wait till the Zulus start arriving. That would be a good comparison

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## mingle

razgriz19 said:


> And what are they comparing it to?
> They are probably used to flying cobras, anything is a "fastastic machine" compare to that bird.
> Wait till the Zulus start arriving. That would be a good comparison


No Mohamad Usman talked about issues and so far performance of Heli there were alot of tidbits about engine Usman said what been told by pilot currently flying this newbie .


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> According to Usman Shabir PDF PAA pilots who flying these Z10 Helis at the moment they r very happy with Avionics and payload plus there is no Engine power issue at all According to pilot its a fantactic machine to fly .



According to some, it did not perform very well in hot and high conditions, azad kashmir esp. , however ok for the plains area. In contrast current and incoming cobras perform far better in hot and high environment. The turkish helo also preformed ok. The Z10 has been under trials for more than 6 months now and some conclusions should be forthcoming or not.

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## fatman17

Pak media again reporting the acquisition of 4 Mi35 advanced helos saying Pak paid $ 153 mill for them! !! . Inaccurate reporting as usual.

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## Khafee

fatman17 said:


> Pak media again reporting the acquisition of 4 Mi35 advanced helos saying Pak paid $ 153 mill for them! !! . Inaccurate reporting as usual.


Can you set the record straight?


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## fatman17

*Pakistan to Receive 4 Attack Helicopters From Russia*
The four helicopter gunships are slated for delivery next year.





By Franz-Stefan Gady for The Diplomat
December 21, 2016



Pakistan’s military will receive four Russian-made Mi-35M attack helicopters in 2017, Pakistani Minister for Defense Production Rana Tanveer Hussain told local media on December 19.

According to the media report, the purchasing price for the helicopters was $153 million.

Pakistan and Russia agreed to the helicopter deal during then-Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Raheel Sharif’s visit to Russia in June 2015. A preliminary agreement was signed between Pakistani and Russian representatives at the Pakistan Army General Headquarters in Rawalpindi in August 2015. Pakistani media in August of this year quoted Hussain saying that the helicopter deal would be finalized in “two months.”




It is unclear when or if the contract was concluded.

The Mi-35M helicopter is slated to replace Pakistan’s fleet of obsolete U.S.-made AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters. According to some reports, Pakistan plans to procure a total of 20 Mi-35Ms over the next years. Given the cost of building the necessary Mi-35M logistics and maintenance infrastructure, expanding the fleet beyond four aircraft would financially be a sound decision for the Pakistani military.

Pakistan is methodically trying to expand its close air-support capabilities. In April 2015, the U.S. Department of State approved the sale of 15 AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters to Pakistan_. _In addition, the Pakistani military is also mulling the purchase of the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T-129 attack helicopter or the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) Z-10 helicopter gunship.

As I explained previously (See: “Confirmed: Pakistan Is Buying New Attack Helicopters From Russia”):

_The Mi-35M attack helicopter, the export version of the Mi-24 gunship, was developed by the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant and has been produced in Russia since 2005. Next to serving in the Russian military, the aircraft has been exported to Azerbaijan, Brazil, Iraq, and Venezuela._

_The company website of Russian Helicopters notes that the Mi-35 is particularly suited for mountainous terrain and can be deployed “round the clock” in adverse weather conditions. The website notes that the helicopter offers “combat use of guided and unguided weapons in regular and challenging climate conditions” and is “operational for attack flights at altitudes of 10-25 m daytime and 50 m at night over land or water.”_

_The helicopter can be deployed for a host of different missions, including transporting up to eight paratroopers and carrying military supplies weighing up to 1,500 kg internally and 2,400 kg externally._

In comparison to the Mi-24, the Mi35M is also fitted with new main and tail rotors. Next to a chin-mounted twin-barrel GSh-23V 23 millimeter cannon, the Mi-35M helicopter can be armed with 80 and 120 millimeter rockets, and anti-tank guided missiles.

It was only in June 2014 that Russia officially lifted an arms embargo against Pakistan, in place since the Soviet-Afghan War.


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## fatman17

Industry

Pakistan to receive four Mi-35M helos from Russia in 2017, says report

Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

21 December 2016

Russia will deliver four Mil Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to the Pakistan Army (PA) in 2017, Pakistan's minister for defence production, Rana Tanveer Hussain, was quoted by the Dunya News TV channel as saying on 19 December.

Islamabad paid a total of USD153 million for the four helicopters, the minister said without elaborating.

Pakistan and Russia had agreed to the Mi-35M deal in August 2015 in a move considered a breakthrough between the two countries.

Mindful of Indian concerns, Moscow had for years opted against engaging in any military co-operation with Pakistan.

However, in 2014 Russia decided to lift its self-imposed arms embargo against the South Asian country, with Pakistani officials telling IHS Jane's in November that year that the two countries had agreed on the sale of up to 20 Mi-35Ms.

Dunya News also quoted Rana Tanveer Hussain as saying that Islamabad is in contact with the governments of the Maldives and Azerbaijan for the export of 100 MFI-17 Super Mushshak military training aircraft.

The announcement comes after Pakistan secured a deal in November for the sale of 52 of the trainers to the Turkish Air Force. The Super Mushshak is a Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) licence-built version of the Saab MFI-17 Supporter aircraft, which is usually the initial platform used for training air force cadets.


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## khanasifm

I think he meant turkish 52 plus other orders total is over 100 aircraft 

The two new countries may add between 10-20 max each


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> I think he meant turkish 52 plus other orders total is over 100 aircraft
> 
> The two new countries may add between 10-20 max each



When pak media is quoted such errors happen.


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## nomi007

The cockpit of Chinese Z10 in service with Pakistan has been translated to English
+
hmd new type


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## fatman17

Lockheed to Support US, Pakistan Cobra Helo Targeting Sensor for $151 Million

Lockheed Martin has been awarded a $151 million contract to support the Target Sight System (TSS) on US and Pakistan AH-1Z Cobra attack helicopters, the US Department of Defense said in a press release. The TSS incorporates a third-generation forward-looking infrared sensor that provides target sighting in day, night, or adverse weather conditions. "The TSS is a large-aperture mid-wave forward-looking infrared sensor with a laser designator/rangefinder turret and provides the capability to identify and laser-designate targets at maximum weapon range, significantly enhancing platform survivability and lethality," the release explained. The AH-1Z Cobra attack helicopter is used by US Marine Corps expeditionary forces.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201612231048902070-lockheed-cobra-sensor/

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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 362417
> View attachment 362418
> View attachment 362415
> View attachment 362416
> 
> The cockpit of Chinese Z10 in service with Pakistan has been translated to English
> +
> hmd new type



notice the gun tilted where pilot is posing. Poor cameraman

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## nomi007

*M-TADS/PNVS* 
*vs*
*The Lockheed Martin Target Sight System*
which is better 
both are made by same vendor
@
*fatman17*


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## fatman17

The Pakistan Army will receive four Mi-35 Hind E attack helicopters from Russia in 2017. Islamabad has paid $153 million in the deal, signed in August 2015, bringing to an end a self-imposed Russian ban on military exports to the country. Once wary of potential Indian protests at such a sale, Moscow now plans to sell as many as 20 of Mi-35s to Pakistan over the next few years.

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## JK!

fatman17 said:


> The Pakistan Army will receive four Mi-35 Hind E attack helicopters from Russia in 2017. Islamabad has paid $153 million in the deal, signed in August 2015, bringing to an end a self-imposed Russian ban on military exports to the country. Once wary of potential Indian protests at such a sale, Moscow now plans to sell as many as 20 of Mi-35s to Pakistan over the next few years.



Is there a reason why Pakistan is looking at so many platforms for the attack helicopter role? 

I like the idea of Mi35 being inducted as it will help with COIN ops given it has a transport role. 

But then there is Chinese Z10, AH1Z and T129 also being considered. Sounds like a logistical headache.


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## Army research

JK! said:


> Is there a reason why Pakistan is looking at so many platforms for the attack helicopter role?
> 
> I like the idea of Mi35 being inducted as it will help with COIN ops given it has a transport role.
> 
> But then there is Chinese Z10, AH1Z and T129 also being considered. Sounds like a logistical headache.


MI35 is for spec ops , fire support and transport , also ah 1z is light weight all-rounder, how ever other options being considered to tackle India's mass armour

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## khanasifm

Ah1z will face east while mi35 and older ah1 for west


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## Zarvan

khanasifm said:


> Ah1z will face east while mi35 and older ah1 for west


MI-35 will come for totally different role. MI-35 will go to special forces for dedicated attack helicopter Pakistan should test MI-28 also along with T-129 and Z-10 and one should be selected to replace our old Cobras.


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## JK!

Army research said:


> MI35 is for spec ops , fire support and transport , also ah 1z is light weight all-rounder, how ever other options being considered to tackle India's mass armour



Will AH1Z supplement or replace the existing AH1F cobras already in service?

I'm glad the situation means Pakistan has options available to it and they can select the best platform that meets the army's requirement.

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## Army research

JK! said:


> Will AH1Z supplement or replace the existing AH1F cobras already in service?
> 
> I'm glad the situation means Pakistan has options available to it and they can select the best platform that meets the army's requirement.


Well ah 1f will be used to the max , ah1z currently will supplement and also very good for east, so ah1z in coin as dedicated fire support but it's agm hell fire will also be ready for east, MI35 for spec ops in coin and east, ah1f will become reserve , new platform z-10 will be definitely for the east

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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

AH-1Z Cobra attack helicopters operated by the US Navy will receive Target Sight Systems provided by Lockheed Martin. Valued at $150 million, the deal also includes production orders for the government of Pakistan under the foreign military sales program. Options included in the contract could raise the value to $284 million. The Target Sight System is a large-aperture mid-wave forward-looking infrared sensor designed to identify and designate targets at maximum weapon range, increasing the Cobra operator’s survivability and lethality.


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## fatman17

JK! said:


> Is there a reason why Pakistan is looking at so many platforms for the attack helicopter role?
> 
> I like the idea of Mi35 being inducted as it will help with COIN ops given it has a transport role.
> 
> But then there is Chinese Z10, AH1Z and T129 also being considered. Sounds like a logistical headache.



Z10 and T129 are long shots IMHO


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## Khafee

Dazzler said:


> notice the gun tilted where pilot is posing. Poor cameraman


Helmet to Gun tracking system?

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## fatman17

Lethal weapon

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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> Lethal weapon




Sure is, can't wait for us to get ours !!


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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 364461
> Lethal weapon


can u compare
paa ah-1z with indian Apache


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## fatman17

China suffered it's 1st Z10 loss today


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> can u compare
> paa ah-1z with indian Apache



AH64 remains the superior armed helo when compared to other armed helos.


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## fatman17

What does it say

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## ZedZeeshan

fatman17 said:


> What does it say


I dont know...!


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> What does it say



Its something related to that news of PA buying some 40 turkish attack helicopters.

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 371292
> 
> What does it say



@HAKIKAT A selam Brother, kardes abi,janim how are you ? Can you translate that for us ?

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Ulla said:


> @HAKIKAT A selam Brother, kardes abi,janim how are you ? Can you translate that for us ?


Velaykum es selam. I am doing OK. In short: Pakistan has stopped buying arms from other countries. They are only procuring from Turkey. It is reported that 900 thousand infantry rifles and 40 ATAK choppers will be procured by Pak to begin with. It's great to enliven our relationship of unity...

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The future Looks bright for Pakistan Aviation Corps
2017-2020 will see some welcomed addition to division that is fighting Terrorism , and also active
in Humanitarian efforts with its fleet of Transport Helicopters

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## The Eagle

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 371292
> 
> What does it say



Sir, background story or details of that poster would be appreciated as @HAKIKAT translated as 40 ATAKs and 9000 infantry rifles. Thanks.

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## fatman17

The Eagle said:


> Sir, background story or details of that poster would be appreciated as @HAKIKAT translated as 40 ATAKs and 9000 infantry rifles. Thanks.



this was a tweet from prez of turkey. how true is the news is as good a guess as yours and mine.

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## fatman17

AW139

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## fatman17

Cobra

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## Windjammer

Albeit, most of PAA Helicopters carry the MG-3 Machine guns however some are equipped with rarely seen mini guns.

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## fatman17

According to manufacturer Bell, the AH-1Z is the only helicopter in the world to feature air-to-air missile attack capabilities.
our we getting this capability on our AH1Zs as we possess the AIM9 series A2A missiles.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> According to manufacturer Bell, the AH-1Z is the only helicopter in the world to feature air-to-air missile attack capabilities.
> our we getting this capability on our AH1Zs as we possess the AIM9 series A2A missiles.


The T-129 can carry an air-to-air version of the Stinger. Shouldn't be a big leap to do the same with the AIM-9L or some similar missile, especially a South African or Brazilian one.

https://www.tai.com.tr/en/project/atak

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## Readerdefence

fatman17 said:


> According to manufacturer Bell, the AH-1Z is the only helicopter in the world to feature air-to-air missile attack capabilities.
> our we getting this capability on our AH1Zs as we possess the AIM9 series A2A missiles.


I think Z10 also carrying ty90 missile they did a successful test in 2013 operational range in 6km

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## fatman17

Readerdefence said:


> I think Z10 also carrying ty90 missile they did a successful test in 2013 operational range in 6km



suddenly many choices for PAA to replace their venerated but ageing Cobra AH-1F/S.
Chinese Z10PK
Turkish T129
US AH1Z
Russian Mi35
and I would also add the Italian Mangusta to the mix.


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## monitor

This is from H khan of pakdef , what he mean by lot of common with "Z' with ''S" ??


> Mi-35 are being procured for COIN, induction and extraction of SO
> 
> In the end there will be AH-1Z plus one more. Just to let you know the “Z” has a lot of parts which are in common with “S” not the engine or the rotor plus the avionics.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pakistan's AH-1S/F are legacy single-engine Cobras.

The AH-1Z is the latest version of the twin-engine AH-1 Super Cobra. Not sure how much the AH-1Z has in common with the AH-1S/F, but there's no commonality in avionics, engine, weapons or erosion-resistant airframe. What's left?

Pakistan probably got the AH-1Z with FMF support, and as long as U.S. military aid keeps streaming, I would expect more AH-1Z. IMHO nothing to do with apparent commonality with AH-1F/S.



fatman17 said:


> suddenly many choices for PAA to replace their venerated but ageing Cobra AH-1F/S.
> Chinese Z10PK
> Turkish T129
> US AH1Z
> Russian Mi35
> and I would also add the Italian Mangusta to the mix.


The Mi-35 wasn't sought to replace the Cobras. It's a hybrid platform that is best for hot-zone insertion and extraction, an up-gunned transport than an attacker. 

There's no more Italian Mangusta, Turkey bought the rights and entire production line of the Mangusta for the T129 ATAK. Even AugustaWestland is just marketing the T129 (instead of Mangusta).

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## fatman17

*February 15/17: *Turkey’s Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) has awarded TUSA? Engine Industries (TEI) a contract to develop and manufacture a new indigenous turboshaft engine






. The engine will be used in Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) new clean-sheet T-625






utility helicopter, as well as the TAI T-129 ATAK






attack helicopter and TAI Hürku? turboprop-powered trainer and light combat aircraft. At present, Ankara depends on foreign turboshaft designs, such as the General Electric T700, which require them to secure licenses and approval for exports.

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/833731059623800834

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## fatman17

Leonardo: Pakistan expands its AW139 fleet with new orders



*



*

*Additional aircraft for utility and transport purposes with deliveries starting in mid-2017*



Leonardo announced today that the *Pakistan Ministry of Defence* *has placed orders for an undisclosed number of additional AgustaWestland AW139 intermediate twin engine helicopters*. The aircraft will be used to *perform utility and transport operations* across the nation. Deliveries are expected to start in mid-2017. 



This latest purchase further expands the presence and *success of the AW139 and other Leonardo models in Pakistan* and confirms the AW139 as the preferred new generation helicopter choice for *replacement of older types currently in service*. *The AW139 is the perfect fit to Pakistan’s operational environment*, delivering outstanding capabilities with hot and high performance unmatched by any other existing helicopter type in the same class. The new helicopters will add to the fleet of AW139 previously ordered to carry out *search and rescue* (SAR) and *emergency medical service* (EMS) duties in the country.


* Rome * 20/02/2017 17:35



 ComLDO_Pakistan_AW139_20_02_2017_ENG (Download: pdf, Size: 192.6 KB)

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## PDF

@HRK @Zarvan @fatman17 @Oscar 
Having such diverse Helicopters can be problematic. Mi-35,Cobra,Bell,AW139,MI-17 and possibly Z-10.Yes the new apaches are similar to mantain as cobras and bell,Mi17 are also familiar but still diversing too many options and helis will be an issue. I hope we address this threat properly.


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## ali_raza

anyone have any guess about what role is assigned to aw139


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## fatman17

ali_raza said:


> anyone have any guess about what role is assigned to aw139



SAR, utility and transport. its mentioned in post # 3281



M.Musa said:


> @HRK @Zarvan @fatman17 @Oscar
> Having such diverse Helicopters can be problematic. Mi-35,Cobra,Bell,AW139,MI-17 and possibly Z-10.Yes the new apaches are similar to mantain as cobras and bell,Mi17 are also familiar but still diversing too many options and helis will be an issue. I hope we address this threat properly.



3 supply chains are manageable. US, Russia and Italy. we have depot level maintenance facilities for Mi17 and I'm sure Mi35 can also be managed. for AW139 we should also try to get similar facilities to make things easier. we have extensive experience of maintaining the Cobras locally at Multan.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

No problem we maintain Nuclear plan this is just helicopter


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## fatman17

*Pakistan to Receive US Attack Helicopters in 2017*
The Pakistan Army is slated to receive three AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters this year.






By Franz-Stefan Gady for The Diplomat
February 22, 2017


The United States will deliver three Bell AH-1Z Viper twin-engine attack helicopters to Pakistan in 2017, according to U.S. media reports, part of a total shipment of 12. The first batch of three helicopters will be delivered in 2017, whereas the remaining nine will arrive in 2018, based on information obtained from Bell Helicopters by aviation journalist Alan Warnes.

As I reported elsewhere, the U.S. State Department approved the sale of 15 AH-1Z Vipers, missiles, and communications equipment at an estimated cost of $952 million in April 2015. Pakistan ordered the first three helicopters in August 2015, and placed an additional order for nine helicopters in April 2016. A U.S. Department of Defense contract notification published in April 2016 only refers to a total of nine AH-1Z Viper helicopters to be purchased by Pakistan for an estimated $170.2 million contract. So far, Islamabad has not placed an order for the remaining attack helicopters.

The original request by Pakistan also included the sale of 1,000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II missiles.

The AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters will be equipped with H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, Joint Mission Planning Systems, and General Dynamics M197 20 millimeter cannons.

Pakistan Army Aviation is slated to deploy the helicopters in counterinsurgency operations in Pakistan’s tribal areas. By acquiring the helicopters, “Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency [NWA], the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATAs], and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day and night environment,” according to an April 2015 Defense Security Cooperation Agency press release.

Pakistan’s military will also receive four Russian-made Mi-35M attack helicopters in 2017. The Mi-35M is the export version of the Mi-24 gunship and is particularly suited for operations in mountainous terrain. Pakistan Army Aviation could acquire up to 20 Mi-35Ms in the years ahead. “Given the cost of building the necessary Mi-35M logistics and maintenance infrastructure, expanding the fleet beyond four aircraft would financially be a sound decision for the Pakistani military,” I explained elsewhere (See: “Pakistan to Receive 4 Attack Helicopters From Russia”).

Islamabad is also considering the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T-129 attack helicopter or the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) Z-10 helicopter gunship as an alternative to the Mi-35M. The new gunships will slowly phase out Pakistan Army Aviation’s obsolete fleet of U.S.-made AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters.


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## HRK

M.Musa said:


> @HRK @Zarvan @fatman17 @Oscar
> Having such diverse Helicopters can be problematic. Mi-35,Cobra,Bell,AW139,MI-17 and possibly Z-10.Yes the new apaches are similar to mantain as cobras and bell,Mi17 are also familiar but still diversing too many options and helis will be an issue. I hope we address this threat properly.



on prima facia it appears but no because of

1- Different roles for each helicopter type
2- Evolving threats form more then one theater on both fronts

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## ali_raza

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan to Receive US Attack Helicopters in 2017*
> The Pakistan Army is slated to receive three AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters this year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By Franz-Stefan Gady for The Diplomat
> February 22, 2017
> 
> 
> The United States will deliver three Bell AH-1Z Viper twin-engine attack helicopters to Pakistan in 2017, according to U.S. media reports, part of a total shipment of 12. The first batch of three helicopters will be delivered in 2017, whereas the remaining nine will arrive in 2018, based on information obtained from Bell Helicopters by aviation journalist Alan Warnes.
> 
> As I reported elsewhere, the U.S. State Department approved the sale of 15 AH-1Z Vipers, missiles, and communications equipment at an estimated cost of $952 million in April 2015. Pakistan ordered the first three helicopters in August 2015, and placed an additional order for nine helicopters in April 2016. A U.S. Department of Defense contract notification published in April 2016 only refers to a total of nine AH-1Z Viper helicopters to be purchased by Pakistan for an estimated $170.2 million contract. So far, Islamabad has not placed an order for the remaining attack helicopters.
> 
> The original request by Pakistan also included the sale of 1,000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II missiles.
> 
> The AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters will be equipped with H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, Joint Mission Planning Systems, and General Dynamics M197 20 millimeter cannons.
> 
> Pakistan Army Aviation is slated to deploy the helicopters in counterinsurgency operations in Pakistan’s tribal areas. By acquiring the helicopters, “Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency [NWA], the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATAs], and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day and night environment,” according to an April 2015 Defense Security Cooperation Agency press release.
> 
> Pakistan’s military will also receive four Russian-made Mi-35M attack helicopters in 2017. The Mi-35M is the export version of the Mi-24 gunship and is particularly suited for operations in mountainous terrain. Pakistan Army Aviation could acquire up to 20 Mi-35Ms in the years ahead. “Given the cost of building the necessary Mi-35M logistics and maintenance infrastructure, expanding the fleet beyond four aircraft would financially be a sound decision for the Pakistani military,” I explained elsewhere (See: “Pakistan to Receive 4 Attack Helicopters From Russia”).
> 
> Islamabad is also considering the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T-129 attack helicopter or the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) Z-10 helicopter gunship as an alternative to the Mi-35M. The new gunships will slowly phase out Pakistan Army Aviation’s obsolete fleet of U.S.-made AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters.
> 
> View attachment 379119


this is a beast

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## Zarvan

In my opinion Pakistan should try to increase the order of Zulus. I think we should try to get at least 9 more total of 24


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## ziaulislam

Zarvan said:


> In my opinion Pakistan should try to increase the order of Zulus. I think we should try to get at least 9 more total of 24


they are expensive, if i am not wrong this is a FMS not FMF so pakistan is going to pay for it

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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> they are expensive, if i am not wrong this is a FMS not FMF so pakistan is going to pay for it



952m$ including 1000 hellfire's and spares etc.

IDEX 2017
*International Viper [IDEX17D5]*

23 February 2017







This year Pakistan will begin receiving the first of 12 Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters that it has ordered. When delivered, they will be the first export use of the type, which is the latest iteration of Bell’s iconic gunship helicopter.

The AH-1 concept has come a long way since its creation as the HueyCobra in the 1960s, gaining a second engine and a four-bladed rotor along the way, while the mission equipment now represents the state-of-the-art in attack helicopter systems.

The Viper’s principal targeting system is the Lockheed Martin AAQ-30 Target Sight System, an electro-optical turret mounted in the helicopter’s nose. The two- person crew employ the Thales TopOwl helmet-mounted display, while the Viper is protected by systems such as the AAR-47 missile approach warning system, APR-39C(V)2 radar warning receiver and ALE-47 countermeasures dispensing system. Armament comprises a chin-mounted M197 three-barrelled 20mm cannon turret, rocket pods and precision-guided weapons such as Hellfire missiles and APKWS laser-guided rockets. The stub wings have a tip-mounted rail for an air-to-air missile such as the AIM-9 Sidewinder.

Along with the Bell UH-1Y Venom with which it shares major systems and components, the Viper was selected to equip the light helicopter attack squadrons of the US Marine Corps as a successor to the AH-1W. Pakistan became the first export customer when it ordered three in August 2015, adding nine more in April 2016. A total of 15 was requested in the notification to US Congress, approved in April 2015.

*Asia Pacific*



Pakistan has contracted Leonardo to provide an undisclosed number of additional AgustaWestland AW139 helicopters. Deliveries of the utility and transport helicopters will begin in the middle of this year. Leonardo said that the purchase



will expand Pakistan’s existing AW139 fleet, adding the rotorcraft’s high performance capabilities under extreme weather conditions make it a good fit for the country’s operational environment.


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## Cool_Soldier

waiting for these birds, really cool.


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## blinder

The planning, dated 18 March 2016, called for delivery of 3 AH-1Z out of FY2015 production lot 12. Deliveries to USMC and Pakistan should be finished by the fourth quarter of 2017.
After that, lot 13 will be produced and that includes 9 AH-1Z for Pakistan. This production lot will be delivered between the third quarter of 2017 and the second quarter of 2018.

I presume Bell delivers to the home market first; so your first 3 birds are likely to arrive in the October-December 2017 timeframe; followed by the other 9 from April 2018 onward. Unless they have changed the planning... We will know more this April/May after all the paperwork for the new Fiscal Year becomes available in the "freedom of information act"-reading room ;-)

The AH-1Z has an awesome integrated weapons system with helmets that are tailored to each pilot's head to caillibrate their eyes on the helmet mounted cueing system. Hopefully you will get that too?
Anyway, the first thing you guys will notice, as compared to the AH-1F, is that you do not hear the rotor slap of the Zulu from 8 km distance like the old one...

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## ali_raza

blinder said:


> The planning, dated 18 March 2016, called for delivery of 3 AH-1Z out of FY2015 production lot 12. Deliveries to USMC and Pakistan should be finished by the fourth quarter of 2017.
> After that, lot 13 will be produced and that includes 9 AH-1Z for Pakistan. This production lot will be delivered between the third quarter of 2017 and the second quarter of 2018.
> 
> I presume Bell delivers to the home market first; so your first 3 birds are likely to arrive in the October-December 2017 timeframe; followed by the other 9 from April 2018 onward. Unless they have changed the planning... We will know more this April/May after all the paperwork for the new Fiscal Year becomes available in the "freedom of information act"-reading room ;-)
> 
> The AH-1Z has an awesome integrated weapons system with helmets that are tailored to each pilot's head to caillibrate their eyes on the helmet mounted cueing system. Hopefully you will get that too?
> Anyway, the first thing you guys will notice, as compared to the AH-1F, is that you do not hear the rotor slap of the Zulu from 8 km distance like the old one...


i hope we order more

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## MystryMan

fatman17 said:


> 952m$ including 1000 hellfire's and spares etc.
> 
> IDEX 2017
> *International Viper [IDEX17D5]*
> 
> 23 February 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This year Pakistan will begin receiving the first of 12 Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters that it has ordered. When delivered, they will be the first export use of the type, which is the latest iteration of Bell’s iconic gunship helicopter.
> 
> The AH-1 concept has come a long way since its creation as the HueyCobra in the 1960s, gaining a second engine and a four-bladed rotor along the way, while the mission equipment now represents the state-of-the-art in attack helicopter systems.
> 
> The Viper’s principal targeting system is the Lockheed Martin AAQ-30 Target Sight System, an electro-optical turret mounted in the helicopter’s nose. The two- person crew employ the Thales TopOwl helmet-mounted display, while the Viper is protected by systems such as the AAR-47 missile approach warning system, APR-39C(V)2 radar warning receiver and ALE-47 countermeasures dispensing system. Armament comprises a chin-mounted M197 three-barrelled 20mm cannon turret, rocket pods and precision-guided weapons such as Hellfire missiles and APKWS laser-guided rockets. The stub wings have a tip-mounted rail for an air-to-air missile such as the AIM-9 Sidewinder.
> 
> Along with the Bell UH-1Y Venom with which it shares major systems and components, the Viper was selected to equip the light helicopter attack squadrons of the US Marine Corps as a successor to the AH-1W. Pakistan became the first export customer when it ordered three in August 2015, adding nine more in April 2016. A total of 15 was requested in the notification to US Congress, approved in April 2015.
> 
> *Asia Pacific*
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan has contracted Leonardo to provide an undisclosed number of additional AgustaWestland AW139 helicopters. Deliveries of the utility and transport helicopters will begin in the middle of this year. Leonardo said that the purchase
> 
> 
> 
> will expand Pakistan’s existing AW139 fleet, adding the rotorcraft’s high performance capabilities under extreme weather conditions make it a good fit for the country’s operational environment.


Will PA order the remaining 3 of the original order of 15?


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## fatman17

MystryMan said:


> Will PA order the remaining 3 of the original order of 15?



most definitely.


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## ali_raza

fatman17 said:


> most definitely.


what about additional orders


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## fatman17

ali_raza said:


> what about additional orders



depends on how successfully we deal with trump admin.

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## HRK

L-19 Bird DOG of PAA





PAA First Helicopter

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## hassan1



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## nomi007



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## Windjammer

TAI T-129 attack helicopter in Pakistan.

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## mingle

Windjammer said:


> TAI T-129 attack helicopter in Pakistan.
> 
> View attachment 382621


@Windjammer its new pic ?i mean they back in Pak for further trials ?



nomi007 said:


>


Beauty and Beast .


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## Super Falcon

Pakistan aviation should focus on Turkish helo


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## Basel

@Windjammer @Oscar why PAA not looking into Ka-52s for its anti armor heli?


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## Basel

The MI-35M is good machine, not bad for supporting troops on ground.


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## SQ8

Basel said:


> @Windjammer @Oscar why PAA not looking into Ka-52s for its anti armor heli?


No need to have more than two types
Z-10 is good anti armour
T-129 is good anti armour
Ah-1z is good anti armour


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## Areesh

Oscar said:


> No need to have more than two types
> Z-10 is good anti armour
> T-129 is good anti armour
> Ah-1z is good anti armour



Agreed.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Basel said:


> @Windjammer @Oscar why PAA not looking into Ka-52s for its anti armor heli?


There is also the reality of Russia. Despite all that we have read about ties warming up, I don't think either side at the stage where big >$500m defence contracts will be signed.

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## Stealth

Oscar said:


> No need to have more than two types
> Z-10 is good anti armour
> T-129 is good anti armour
> Ah-1z is good anti armour



eek zara halki quality ka hey eek zara achay customer kiliye hai


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Nothing wrong with having multiple platforms, it will ensure that depending on performance and what country has faster service record we can continue to grow that platform , vs waiting 4-5 years for 2-3 choppers

Z-10
T-129

The above fulfill all needs of a proper gunship 

Mi-35
Super Cobra (Bit heavier on the cost side)
Are for special purpose


It all depends on future attainment of more numbers which vendor can supply a fill up order, obviously the Turkish / Chinese avenue is the best due to tremendous positive relations with Pakistan


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## Basel

Oscar said:


> No need to have more than two types
> Z-10 is good anti armour
> T-129 is good anti armour
> Ah-1z is good anti armour



Where Ka-52 stands in comparison with your mentioned Helicopters?



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There is also the reality of Russia. Despite all that we have read about ties warming up, I don't think either side at the stage where big >$500m defence contracts will be signed.



But they did offer Mi-28NE to Pakistan, I only want to know how capable this bird is compared to all other birds.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Basel said:


> Where Ka-52 stands in comparison with your mentioned Helicopters?
> 
> 
> 
> But they did offer Mi-28NE to Pakistan, I only want to know how capable this bird is compared to all other birds.


The 'offer' was reported by Jane's. We don't know the context or if it was done at a high enough level. What some Rosoboronexport and Pakistan Army officers might say to one another has been taken to mean big things (e.g. Su-35, S-400, Mi-28NE, etc), yet nothing has come of it. Until Rosoboronexport says in clear terms, "we are discussing an Mi-28NE sale to Pakistan,", I wouldn't consider that helicopter a factor.

That aside, the Mi-28NE is a heavyweight platform, it has a much heavier payload than the T-129 and Z-10. Basically, it can carry 16 ATGM vs. 8 on the T-129 and Z-10. For what it's worth, the PAA already has a heavy attack helicopter in the pipeline - the AH-1Z.


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## Basel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The 'offer' was reported by Jane's. We don't know the context or if it was done at a high enough level. What some Rosoboronexport and Pakistan Army officers might say to one another has been taken to mean big things (e.g. Su-35, S-400, Mi-28NE, etc), yet nothing has come of it. Until Rosoboronexport says in clear terms, "we are discussing an Mi-28NE sale to Pakistan,", I wouldn't consider that helicopter a factor.
> 
> That aside, the Mi-28NE is a heavyweight platform, it has a much heavier payload than the T-129 and Z-10. Basically, it can carry 16 ATGM vs. 8 on the T-129 and Z-10. For what it's worth, the PAA already has a heavy attack helicopter in the pipeline - the AH-1Z.



AH-1Zs will not be able to fill required numbers of heavy attack helicopter and pron to sanctions, Ka52 is right answer against Cold Start working with T-129 / Z-10, Ka52 has radar and can provide targeting data to other assets too, also meant for recon too.


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## HannibalBarca

Basel said:


> AH-1Zs will not be able to fill required numbers of heavy attack helicopter and pron to sanctions, Ka52 is right answer against Cold Start working with T-129 / Z-10, Ka52 has radar and can provide targeting data to other assets too, also meant for recon too.


What you need is mostly a flying tank... to add to those incoming light Attack helis...

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## Basel

HannibalBarca said:


> What you need is mostly a flying tank... to add to those incoming light Attack helis...



Ka52 seems very good if one can not have Apache to counter rapid armor thrust / cold start.

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## HannibalBarca

Basel said:


> Ka52 seems very good if one can not have Apache to counter rapid armor thrust / cold start.


you can get those mi-28, if you wait a little longer, you may even consider the newly upgraded ones...

Ka-52 is a good choice, but it's not meant for "pure" attack/destruction.


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## Basel

HannibalBarca said:


> you can get those mi-28, if you wait a little longer, you may even consider the newly upgraded ones...
> 
> Ka-52 is a good choice, but it's not meant for "pure" attack/destruction.



Its beast against conventional force, you can compare it with any other heavy bird. Mi-28 is good but Ka-52 is just another class.

It can find targets in kargil and siachin due to capable radar and other tracking/guidance systems and can hover at 4000m which proving data to other assets.

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## HannibalBarca

Basel said:


> Its beast against conventional force, you can compare it with any other heavy bird. Mi-28 is good but Ka-52 is just another class.


Yep Ka-52 is another class, but PAK has those light attack helis, who can support and reco, but lack flying tank.
(only My opinion)

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## Basel

HannibalBarca said:


> Yep Ka-52 is another class, but PAK has those light attack helis, who can support and reco, but lack flying tank.
> (only My opinion)



T129/Z-10 with Ka-52 can rain hell on cold start attack of IA while other armed helis like Mi-35 and Fennec can provide support to main force.

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## HannibalBarca

Basel said:


> T129/Z-10 with Ka-52 can rain hell on cold start attack of IA while other armed helis like Mi-35 and Fennec can provide support to main force.


You can too. but with Mi-28 in the group, it could be better.


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## Basel




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## fatman17

Let's not fool ourselves, except for 4 Mi35s and a few Mi17s, nothing else is forthcoming from the Russians, and the PAA knows this and will focus on what's doable.
AH1Zs, Z10s with a uprated motor and possibly the T129 which the Turks are Keen to sell but the price has got to be right. The Turks are notoriously slow negotiators.

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## SQ8

Stealth said:


> eek zara halki quality ka hey eek zara achay customer kiliye hai


Quality is something we have sorted out with thr Chinese; if anyone taught them QC early on in defense systems, its us.

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## fatman17



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## Windjammer



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## Stealth

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 384052



I know the tmovement of these helis... crossing my house everyday

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## Windjammer

Stealth said:


> I know the tmovement of these helis... crossing my house everyday


Bahi, aub lens ka cover uttar dou.


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## Stealth

Windjammer said:


> Bahi, aub lens ka cover uttar dou.



parday may rahnay doo... pardaa naa uthaoo... cover jo uth gaya tu phir.... kaam tamaam hojayeega


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## Windjammer



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## The Eagle

Z-10 onboard LPD Yimengshan(988) in an amphibious landing exercise.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/842384842159357952


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## fatman17



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## nomi007



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## fatman17



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## khanasifm

No Z10 or Mi-35 in the parade???


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## monitor

khanasifm said:


> No Z10 or Mi-35 in the parade???




MI-35 not yet delivered Z-10 probably return after given test.


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## nomi007

23rd march day picture

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## Bratva

*Fennecs and Cobras prepare to Fight*
By
David Oliver
-
March 21, 2017



 Share on Facebook
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8 
TotalShares
*The Pakistan Army expects to enhance its counter insurgency capabilities in Waziristan following the introduction of new rotorcraft expected this April.*

According to Major General Khalil Dar, the general officer commanding of Pakistan’s Army Aviation (*PAA*) branch, new high performance helicopters entering service will enhance the army’s ability to conduct all-weather, day and night operations in North Waziristan in the east of the country, and other remote and mountainous areas. Speaking at the recent IQPC International Military Helicopter conference in London held in early February, Gen. Dar thanked *Airbus Helicopters* for its fleet of *H-125M Fennec* armed reconnaissance helicopters, eight of which will enter service in April.





H-125M Fennec armed reconnaissance helicopter.
According to official specifications, these helicopters have the capability to fly in excess of 10000 feet (3166 metres) altitude, and will work with the army’s *Bell AH-1Z Viper* attack helicopters; twelve of which have been ordered by the PAA, the first three of which will be delivered by the end of this year. Pakistan ordered the first three helicopters in August 2015, and placed an additional order for nine helicopters in April 2016.

Open sources note that the AH-1Z aircraft will be equipped with General Electric T-700-GE-401C turboshafts, Northrop Grumman H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-30 targeting systems, Rockwell Collins AN/ARC-210 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency (30 megahertz to three gigahertz) communications, Honeywell H-764 Global Positioning/Inertial Navigation Systems, Thales Optimised Top Owl helmet-mounted display, BAE Systems APX-117A identification friend or foe equipment, Orbital ATK AN/AAR-47 missile warning systems, BAE Systems AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, Northrop Grumman AN/APR-39C(V)2 radar warning receivers, and General Dynamics’ M-197 20mm gun systems. Moreover, the contract covers the procurement of 1000 Lockheed Martin AGM-114R Hellfire-II missiles, plus parts, training and logistics support. These aircraft are being procured via two contracts, the first of which was issued in August 2015 to cover three AH-1Zs procured for $58 million, with a second contract in April 2016 for nine aircraft at an estimated $170.2 million, giving an average unit price of circa $19 million per aircraft.

Both the AH-1Z and H-125M helicopters will replace the current PAA combat teams of *Bell AH-1S Cobras* and *Bell 412EP* light utility helicopters that are restricted to operating at less than 8000ft (2435m). The H-125Ms, sources tell _asianmilitaryreview.com_ are expected to be operational by the end of this year, with the AH-1Zs following by the end of 2018.

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## Readerdefence

Anybody knows anything about Z10 why we haven't seen them on 23 march this year
Are they still in Pakistan ?

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## fatman17

Pakistan Army Bell 412EP Air Display in MiranshahQuote

Post Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:53 pm

Pakistan Army Bell 412EP (Enhanced Performance) helicopter performing in Miramshah/Miranshah, North Waziristan Agency, on March 23 Pakistan Day.

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## fatman17

Armed Fennec


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## fatman17




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## fatman17

The venerable Cobras


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## Cool_Soldier

Z10 were given for testing purpose as a gift.So, dont think that they would be return after trial.


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## Arsalan

Readerdefence said:


> Anybody knows anything about Z10 why we haven't seen them on 23 march this year
> Are they still in Pakistan ?


They are here but were not part of the parade! They were there for the rehearsals as far as i know. Dont know why these were not there for parade.

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## Advocate Pakistan

What's the armament of fennec

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## razgriz19

Broke down probably. There are only 3, if two can't fly, sending one would look weird.

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## fatman17

Advocate Pakistan said:


> What's the armament of fennec


If you see the picture it has machine gun cannisters on each side, probably can fire unguided rockets. It's a armed reconnaissance helo.

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## Advocate Pakistan

razgriz19 said:


> Broke down probably. There are only 3, if two can't fly, sending one would look weird.



News was that 1 Z-10 had crashed last year. That leaves only 2. But now I can't find any info on it. So we have two, probably 3 if the crash didn't happen in the first place.


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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## fatman17

LEONARDO: PAKISTAN STRENGTHENS HELICOPTER FLEET RENEWAL WITH ADDITIONAL AW139S ORDER

Leonardo: Pakistan strengthens helicopter fleet renewal with additional AW139s order

Further AW139s for utility, SAR and EMS with deliveries starting in early 2018

The AW139 proves the preferred choice for a number of military and government customers around the world

Bestseller helicopter with over 1000 units sold to more than 250 customers in over 70 nations and nearly 900 units in service to date


Leonardo announced today that the Government of Pakistan has signed a new order for an undisclosed number of additional AgustaWestland AW139 intermediate twin engine helicopters. The aircraft will be used to perform utility, SAR (Search and Rescue) and EMS (Emergency Medical Service) operations across the nation. Deliveries are expected to start in early 2018.

The contract is a further step towards the completion of fleet renewal programmes spread over several batches plus logistic support and training. This event is a major achievement for Leonardo expanding the already successful presence of the AW139 model in the country. A fast growing fleet of AW139s is already in service in Pakistan, with several units operated by the Pakistan Government for relief and transport duties. The AW139 is the perfect fit to Pakistan’s operational environment, delivering outstanding capabilities and hot&high performance unmatched by any other existing helicopter type in the same class.
Roma 28/03/2017 13:42

ComLDO_Pakistan_AW139_utilitySAR_EMS_28_03_2017_ENG (Download: pdf, Size: 191.7 KB)

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## ZedZeeshan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 387232
> View attachment 387233


I love this gun..


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## mingle

ZedZeeshan said:


> I love this gun..


Dillons Gatling Gun .


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> LEONARDO: PAKISTAN STRENGTHENS HELICOPTER FLEET RENEWAL WITH ADDITIONAL AW139S ORDER
> 
> Leonardo: Pakistan strengthens helicopter fleet renewal with additional AW139s order
> 
> Further AW139s for utility, SAR and EMS with deliveries starting in early 2018
> 
> The AW139 proves the preferred choice for a number of military and government customers around the world
> 
> Bestseller helicopter with over 1000 units sold to more than 250 customers in over 70 nations and nearly 900 units in service to date
> 
> 
> Leonardo announced today that the Government of Pakistan has signed a new order for an undisclosed number of additional AgustaWestland AW139 intermediate twin engine helicopters. The aircraft will be used to perform utility, SAR (Search and Rescue) and EMS (Emergency Medical Service) operations across the nation. Deliveries are expected to start in early 2018.
> 
> The contract is a further step towards the completion of fleet renewal programmes spread over several batches plus logistic support and training. This event is a major achievement for Leonardo expanding the already successful presence of the AW139 model in the country. A fast growing fleet of AW139s is already in service in Pakistan, with several units operated by the Pakistan Government for relief and transport duties. The AW139 is the perfect fit to Pakistan’s operational environment, delivering outstanding capabilities and hot&high performance unmatched by any other existing helicopter type in the same class.
> Roma 28/03/2017 13:42
> 
> ComLDO_Pakistan_AW139_utilitySAR_EMS_28_03_2017_ENG (Download: pdf, Size: 191.7 KB)



Same news also came a month ago or may be two months ago but have we again increased the order or news is getting repeated

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Same news also came a month ago or may be two months ago but have we again increased the order or news is getting repeated


This notice is the actual signing of agreement. You are correct it is not further additional order.

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## khanasifm

Who is the buyer this time pa or paf ?


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Who is the buyer this time pa or paf ?


Army and possibly navy


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The actual number was decided upon in May 2016, these are just actual orders within that MoU.


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## fatman17

Pakistan Strengthens Helicopter Fleet Renewal with Additional AW139s Order

Pakistan orders another batch of AW139 for utility, SAR and EMS with deliveries starting in early 2018. At least 11 helicopters are already in service since 2009 in both military and civilian use.

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## Windjammer

Where Eagles Dare.

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## ali_raza

Windjammer said:


> Where Eagles Dare.
> 
> View attachment 387608
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 387609
> 
> 
> View attachment 387610


mashallah u never fail to impress us

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## fatman17

Advocate Pakistan said:


> News was that 1 Z-10 had crashed last year. That leaves only 2. But now I can't find any info on it. So we have two, probably 3 if the crash didn't happen in the first place.


Not true

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## khanasifm

Excellent 
http://www.flyingmag.com/aircrafts/pistons/cessna-t206-turbo-stationair
http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acdata_php/acdata_208_en.php


Pakistan Army receives six Cessna aircraft from US
https://www.dawn.com/news/1323994/pakistan-army-receives-six-cessna-aircraft-from-us


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## fatman17

To be used as medical ambulances

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## Readerdefence

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 387928
> 
> To be used as medical ambulances


R u sure coz it got FLIR under its belly


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## fatman17

Readerdefence said:


> R u sure coz it got FLIR under its belly


Have to land on dirt strips D/N. Having said that it can also be used for other purposes. caravans can be armed also.

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## khanasifm

I think PA already operate a few in a sqn so these will be add on


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> I think PA already operate a few in a sqn so these will be add on


I believe 1st order was for 2 a/c then a repeat order for 4.

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## hassan1



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## Muhammad Omar

I Don't think these were posted here before..

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## Rocky rock

Muhammad Omar said:


> I Don't think these were posted here before..
> 
> View attachment 388798
> View attachment 388799



*Already posted even twice.

Here's the new one!




*

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Pakistan Army receives six Cessna medevac aircraft from US

Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

04 April 2017

The Pakistan Army Aviation Corps has received all six medical evacuation (medevac) aircraft that it ordered from the United States in April 2016, the US Embassy in Islamabad said in a statement on 31 March.

"Since November 2016 the Pakistan Army has received six Cessna planes: two Cessna 208 Caravans and four Cessna 206H aircraft.

"These aircraft will assist the Pakistan Army with their air mobility capability by enhancing the army's ability to conduct medical evacuations, as well as provide limited troop and equipment transport," said the statement, adding that the latest delivery took place on 24 March.

The US Embassy quoted Pakistan's Army Aviation Command as thanking Washington for the "generous contribution".

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## Syed Asif Bukhari

why AW 139s were not shown in the 23rd March Parade ?


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## fatman17

Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> why AW 139s were not shown in the 23rd March Parade ?


Delivered after 23rd March.

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## AMG_12

Rocky rock said:


> *Already posted even twice.
> 
> Here's the new one!
> 
> View attachment 388800
> *


The pictures posted by Muhammad Omar were taken in Pakistan after delivery. The picture posted by you was taken in Italy prior to delivery. All of them are posted in various threads already.


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## fatman17

Industry

Navy League 2017: Bell anticipates imminent second export order of UH-1Y and AH-1Z helos

Kate Tringham, National Harbor, Maryland - IHS Jane's Navy International

05 April 2017

Bell Helicopter is expecting to sign a second export order for its H-1 series UH-1Y Venom utility and AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters in the coming months. At the same time, the company is preparing to hand over to the US government the first three of 12 AH-1Z helicopters on order for Pakistan this summer, with the remainder to be delivered next year. The US approved the sale of AH-1Zs to Pakistan in April 2015.

Speaking to Jane's at the US Navy League's annual Sea Air Space exposition, Nate Green, business development manager for Bell Helicopter's global military business, said the company was experiencing a strong uptake in interest from FMS customers for the two platforms, with a second export order expected to be signed in the next two months

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## fatman17

Mushshak crash lands in peshawar

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## Khafee

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 389129
> 
> Mushshak crash lands in peshawar


Hopefully everyone is safe?

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## fatman17

Khafee said:


> Hopefully everyone is safe?


Yes pilot walked away safely.

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## Khafee

fatman17 said:


> Yes pilot walked away safely.
> View attachment 389188
> View attachment 389189


Alhumdulillah.

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## Rocky rock

fatman17 said:


> Industry
> 
> Navy League 2017: Bell anticipates imminent second export order of UH-1Y and AH-1Z helos
> 
> Kate Tringham, National Harbor, Maryland - IHS Jane's Navy International
> 
> 05 April 2017
> 
> Bell Helicopter is expecting to sign a second export order for its H-1 series UH-1Y Venom utility and AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters in the coming months. At the same time, the company is preparing to hand over to the US government the first three of 12 AH-1Z helicopters on order for Pakistan this summer, with the remainder to be delivered next year. The US approved the sale of AH-1Zs to Pakistan in April 2015.
> 
> Speaking to Jane's at the US Navy League's annual Sea Air Space exposition, Nate Green, business development manager for Bell Helicopter's global military business, said the company was experiencing a strong uptake in interest from FMS customers for the two platforms, with a second export order expected to be signed in the next two months
> 
> View attachment 389077



And for who that 2nd order is?


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## mingle

Rocky rock said:


> And for who that 2nd order is?


My guess is Pak .


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> My guess is Pak .


Probably not. It could be Jordan since they transferred their AH1Fs to Pakistan.


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## Khafee

fatman17 said:


> Probably not. It could be Jordan since they transferred their AH1Fs to Pakistan.


I am open to correction, but as of now Zulus are being built only for PA and USMC

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## fatman17

Khafee said:


> I am open to correction, but as of now Zulus are being built only for PA and USMC


Correct but there are no restrictions on export orders.

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## blinder

fatman17 said:


> Yes pilot walked away safely.
> View attachment 389188
> View attachment 389189



Was this one operated by the Army Avaition School? I do not entirely recognise that badge on the forward fuselage,

best regards,
Erwin

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## mingle

blinder said:


> Was this one operated by the Army Avaition School? I do not entirely recognise that badge on the forward fuselage,
> 
> best regards,
> Erwin


Yes its AAS Gujranwala .


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Yes its AAS Gujranwala .


What was it doing in peshawar

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Industry
> 
> Navy League 2017: Bell anticipates imminent second export order of UH-1Y and AH-1Z helos
> 
> Kate Tringham, National Harbor, Maryland - IHS Jane's Navy International
> 
> 05 April 2017
> 
> Bell Helicopter is expecting to sign a second export order for its H-1 series UH-1Y Venom utility and AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters in the coming months. At the same time, the company is preparing to hand over to the US government the first three of 12 AH-1Z helicopters on order for Pakistan this summer, with the remainder to be delivered next year. The US approved the sale of AH-1Zs to Pakistan in April 2015.
> 
> Speaking to Jane's at the US Navy League's annual Sea Air Space exposition, Nate Green, business development manager for Bell Helicopter's global military business, said the company was experiencing a strong uptake in interest from FMS customers for the two platforms, with a second export order expected to be signed in the next two months
> 
> View attachment 389077


I wonder what will happen if PAA puts in a follow up order of 12 more units. Will US approve it or give us a negative response. If we do so after the original 3 are delivered it will be a good litmus test of our relations with the US.
A


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## Zarvan

araz said:


> I wonder what will happen if PAA puts in a follow up order of 12 more units. Will US approve it or give us a negative response. If we do so after the original 3 are deliveredit will be a good litmus test of our relations with the US.
> A


@Horus thinks we would try to get 30 of them in total and and around 100 attack helicopters in total 30 Zulu and other which ever helicopter we would choose most likely T-129. In my opinion Pakistan will try to have around 120 dedicated attack helicopters in future these don't include MI-35.


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## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> @Horus thinks we would try to get 30 of them in total and and around 100 attack helicopters in total 30 Zulu and other which ever helicopter we would choose most likely T-129. In my opinion Pakistan will try to have around 120 dedicated attack helicopters in future these don't include MI-35.


Thats a hefty number mery bhai, the cobras need to be retired, the end game is more like 60-70 max excluding the mi 35's...

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## Zarvan

Awan68 said:


> Thats a hefty number mery bhai, the cobras need to be retired, the end game is more like 60-70 max excluding the mi 35's...


60-70 no it would be more yes our economy sucks but slowly it would be the number we would like to have because those will be needed to stop Indian Forces from top to our beaches these would be needed.


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## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> 60-70 no it would be more yes our economy sucks but slowly it would be the number we would like to have because those will be needed to stop Indian Forces from top to our beaches these would be needed.


Over the course of time yes, but not immediately as u were implying, we would've a fleet over a hundred near 2030 maybe even more..


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## Zarvan

Awan68 said:


> Over the course of time yes, but not immediately as u were implying, we would've a fleet over a hundred near 2030 maybe even more..


Nobody is saying over night but also not after 2030


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## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> Nobody is saying over night but also not after 2030


If not after than near...

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## araz

Zarvan said:


> @Horus thinks we would try to get 30 of them in total and and around 100 attack helicopters in total 30 Zulu and other which ever helicopter we would choose most likely T-129. In my opinion Pakistan will try to have around 120 dedicated attack helicopters in future these don't include MI-35.


If I remember correctly our projected need for attack helos has never been more than 80 units and that too at an over stretch. So I dont know where your figures are coming from. The fire power of the modern day hels is a lot more so the unit numbers may well come down. Considering that all of our units are near obsolescence we will require close to 68 units`at an average of 50 million per unit(minus the 12 units we are projected to receive). You do the maths my friend but 3.4 billion plus investment is what you project for 68 units.Now if you want to add another 40 units , that is 2 billion more. Where are we getting the money from for all these purchases? This is the problem with expressing your opinion without thinking. In case you arerwondering why I suggested we request another 12 units, I used it as a litmus test to the sincerity of the US in helping us in our CT efforts.
A


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## fatman17

At best PAA would like to see 60 armed attack helos in 3 squadrons. This does not include any armed Bell and Fennec helos.

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## fatman17

araz said:


> I wonder what will happen if PAA puts in a follow up order of 12 more units. Will US approve it or give us a negative response. If we do so after the original 3 are delivered it will be a good litmus test of our relations with the US.
> A


Too early to say as Pakistan is not on the Trump radar at this time. busy with Russia and Syria, and domestic issues.

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## Talon

Arsalan said:


> They are here but were not part of the parade! They were there for the rehearsals as far as i know. Dont know why these were not there for parade.


They have gone back and they were not part of the rehersals for the parade..

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## Arsalan

Hodor said:


> They have gone back and they were not part of the rehersals for the parade..


Yes they were not part of the rehearsals either, The picture i was shown later was found be a older one.

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## nomi007



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@Oscar

The Airbus H215M Super Puma and Denel Aviation Rooivalk share the same engine, main rotor, tail rotor and gearbox (link). Moreover, the Airbus H215M is a very mature, widely adopted and fairly affordable transport helicopter, boasting a unit cost of $15-20 million per aircraft.

Today, Airbus isn't interested in pushing the Tiger (as Eurocopter was back a decade ago) and is willing to support the Rooivalk program (whereas Eurocopter withheld support in favour of pushing the Tiger). Airbus is currently helping Denel overhaul the SANDF's Rooivalk and is in talks to support the Rooivalk Mk2.

The Rooivalk Mk2 will retain the same airframe, engine and other critical parts of the Rooivalk (link), but will have new avionics and sensors. Denel says it needs 60+ units to make the Rooivalk Mk2 program feasible (link), which is a low number, but explainable since (1) they're re-using the airframe and engines and (2) actually wrote down the Rooivalk's earlier R&D costs when they first shuttered the program. The Mk2's scale is likely to offset the cost of upgrading the helicopter and reactivating its production line.

Theoretically, do you think it is possible for Pakistan to procure both - the H215M and Rooivalk Mk2? With the Rooivalk Mk2, Denel is offering technology transfer and industrial partnerships:

“Denel Aviation is interested in seeking partners and clients in the development of a new generation Rooivalk…In this process, significant opportunities exist for technology transfer as well as production and MRO participation. In order to exploit the intellectual property vested in Rooivalk at an economically feasible level a broad client base would be required,” Denel said.​
“Through a joint venture programme of industrial participation and transfer of intellectual property, an indigenous attack helicopter production, support and upgrade/modification capability can be established.”​With the ToT element potentially impacting both the Rooivalk and H215M, would there be enough scale to sustain it? The H215M could serve as a backbone transport helicopter in the Army, and its well-equipped variants, such as the Caracal, can be put to use by the Navy. I don't think Pakistan would need to aim for total ToT in either area, but securing engine MRO for the Safran Makila, main rotor, tail rotor and *common* dynamic parts manufacturing could be beneficial. This would essentially constitute for most wear-and-tear parts, and localizing the support chain for those should help control long-term costs and guarantee operability.

Aerostructures manufacturing for parts of the airframe could help, but wouldn't be as pivotal as the dynamic parts and engine MRO. Moreover, the H215 airframe is already manufactured in Romania, which is much cheaper to source from than France or Germany anyways. A chunk of the Rooivalk's airframe work could be had via ToT, but the real value of that would come from third-party exports.

Going this route would dampen the T-129 and Z-10 fronts. However, Turkey is now developing its own turboshaft engine for the T-129, one might as well wait for that I think. In general though, the Rooivalk Mk2 is a heavier and bigger beast, one capable of carrying 16 ATGMs - and possibly even a top-mounted millimeter wave radar - like the Apache and Mi-28NE. It shares the rugged and durable design attributes of the Super Puma, and will retain the low operational costs of that platform (by virtue of the same engine and dynamic parts).

Yes, the T-129 is an excellent platform for hot-and-high performance and operations in high-altitude conditions, but the Rooivalk/Super Puma have advantage in terms of parts availability, scale and affordability. I can see the value of the T-129 in vastly sharpening our CAS coverage in the Northern Areas, but when it comes to backing armour along the East in the plains and deserts, it's tough to discount the Rooivalk Mk2.

Yes, it was a total non-factor a few months ago, but we have several favourable factors now: (1) we have renewed formal defence relations with South Africa, so government approvement on that end shouldn't be as much of an issue. (2) Denel's overt willingness to extend ToT and enable the end-user to customize the platform. (3) The Airbus Super Puma making the core of the Rooivalk, which means the Rooivalk benefits from the low cost of acquisition and maintenance of the Super Puma (albeit in terms of the engine and rotors).

One avenue could be to fit the Rooivalk with the avionics, weapons and - if and when available - the millimeter wave radar of the T-129. Yes, Turkey has an incentive to sell the T-129, but as we're seeing with the Altay, they are willing to just sell the subsystems (e.g. electronics, armour, etc) for Pakistan's existing programs (e.g. al-Khalid).

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## fatman17

Aselsan eyes 10,000 Mi-series helicopters for upgrades

By: Burak Ege Bekdil, April 17, 2017

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey’s largest defense company, Aselsan, says it will take an "active role" in the future modernization work for 10,000 Mi-series helicopters worldwide. 

In a statement Monday, the company referred to the ambition as its “most important next goal.” 

The defense electronics specialist said it has a particular interest in upgrading Mi-series helicopters in the Gulf and Central Asian, or Turkic, countries. 

“For this purpose, one Mi-17 helicopter was modernized and delivered to the end user [equipped] with Aselsan indigenous products for demonstration purposes,” the company said. It did not name the “end user.”

Aselsan said indigenous systems it used for the Mi-17 upgrade work included multi-function displays, keyboard display units, inertial navigation systems, mission computers, digital moving map systems, internal communications systems, and very/ultra-high-frequency and high-frequency radios. 

The company said that after the demo upgrade on the Mi-17 it expects to start work on other platforms in the inventory of the “country concerned.” 

Aselsan’s 2016 sales were at $1.2 billion. It exports to 60 different countries and has subsidiaries, affiliates and partnerships in Kazakhstan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, the United Arab Emirates and Azerbaijan.

With more than 5,000 employees, Aselsan reported its backlog at the end of 2016 at $6.2 billion, including new contracts worth $2.6 billion in the same year.

Aselsan, a company listed on the Istanbul stock exchange, is owned by the Turkish Armed Forces Foundation. 

The company specializes in a wide range of products and systems for communications, electronic warfare, electro-optics, land warfare and C4I needs.

Aselsan has upgraded 500 helicopter and aircraft platforms in the inventory of the Turkish Armed Forces. It is presently working as avionics integrator for a weapons and avionics upgrade program for AH-1E Cobra helicopters in an unnamed Middle Eastern country.


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar
> 
> The Airbus H215M Super Puma and Denel Aviation Rooivalk share the same engine, main rotor, tail rotor and gearbox (link). Moreover, the Airbus H215M is a very mature, widely adopted and fairly affordable transport helicopter, boasting a unit cost of $15-20 million per aircraft.
> 
> Today, Airbus isn't interested in pushing the Tiger (as Eurocopter was back a decade ago) and is willing to support the Rooivalk program (whereas Eurocopter withheld support in favour of pushing the Tiger). Airbus is currently helping Denel overhaul the SANDF's Rooivalk and is in talks to support the Rooivalk Mk2.
> 
> The Rooivalk Mk2 will retain the same airframe, engine and other critical parts of the Rooivalk (link), but will have new avionics and sensors. Denel says it needs 60+ units to make the Rooivalk Mk2 program feasible (link), which is a low number, but explainable since (1) they're re-using the airframe and engines and (2) actually wrote down the Rooivalk's earlier R&D costs when they first shuttered the program. The Mk2's scale is likely to offset the cost of upgrading the helicopter and reactivating its production line.
> 
> Theoretically, do you think it is possible for Pakistan to procure both - the H215M and Rooivalk Mk2? With the Rooivalk Mk2, Denel is offering technology transfer and industrial partnerships:
> 
> “Denel Aviation is interested in seeking partners and clients in the development of a new generation Rooivalk…In this process, significant opportunities exist for technology transfer as well as production and MRO participation. In order to exploit the intellectual property vested in Rooivalk at an economically feasible level a broad client base would be required,” Denel said.​
> “Through a joint venture programme of industrial participation and transfer of intellectual property, an indigenous attack helicopter production, support and upgrade/modification capability can be established.”​With the ToT element potentially impacting both the Rooivalk and H215M, would there be enough scale to sustain it? The H215M could serve as a backbone transport helicopter in the Army, and its well-equipped variants, such as the Caracal, can be put to use by the Navy. I don't think Pakistan would need to aim for total ToT in either area, but securing engine MRO for the Safran Makila, main rotor, tail rotor and *common* dynamic parts manufacturing could be beneficial. This would essentially constitute for most wear-and-tear parts, and localizing the support chain for those should help control long-term costs and guarantee operability.
> 
> Aerostructures manufacturing for parts of the airframe could help, but wouldn't be as pivotal as the dynamic parts and engine MRO. Moreover, the H215 airframe is already manufactured in Romania, which is much cheaper to source from than France or Germany anyways. A chunk of the Rooivalk's airframe work could be had via ToT, but the real value of that would come from third-party exports.
> 
> Going this route would dampen the T-129 and Z-10 fronts. However, Turkey is now developing its own turboshaft engine for the T-129, one might as well wait for that I think. In general though, the Rooivalk Mk2 is a heavier and bigger beast, one capable of carrying 16 ATGMs - and possibly even a top-mounted millimeter wave radar - like the Apache and Mi-28NE. It shares the rugged and durable design attributes of the Super Puma, and will retain the low operational costs of that platform (by virtue of the same engine and dynamic parts).
> 
> Yes, the T-129 is an excellent platform for hot-and-high performance and operations in high-altitude conditions, but the Rooivalk/Super Puma have advantage in terms of parts availability, scale and affordability. I can see the value of the T-129 in vastly sharpening our CAS coverage in the Northern Areas, but when it comes to backing armour along the East in the plains and deserts, it's tough to discount the Rooivalk Mk2.
> 
> Yes, it was a total non-factor a few months ago, but we have several favourable factors now: (1) we have renewed formal defence relations with South Africa, so government approvement on that end shouldn't be as much of an issue. (2) Denel's overt willingness to extend ToT and enable the end-user to customize the platform. (3) The Airbus Super Puma making the core of the Rooivalk, which means the Rooivalk benefits from the low cost of acquisition and maintenance of the Super Puma (albeit in terms of the engine and rotors).
> 
> One avenue could be to fit the Rooivalk with the avionics, weapons and - if and when available - the millimeter wave radar of the T-129. Yes, Turkey has an incentive to sell the T-129, but as we're seeing with the Altay, they are willing to just sell the subsystems (e.g. electronics, armour, etc) for Pakistan's existing programs (e.g. al-Khalid).


Denel has been pretty shabby with their marketing , however the roolivak could have been a good choice had the aircraft been demonstrated and promoted well in Pakistan.
It was a good match for the PA as it would have saved on some logistics and maintenance training/induction due to existing Puma knowledge.

However, now it would be a very late entrant to the mix unless denel decides to get up tomorrow and go pitch it @denel


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## denel

Oscar said:


> Denel has been pretty shabby with their marketing , however the roolivak could have been a good choice had the aircraft been demonstrated and promoted well in Pakistan.
> It was a good match for the PA as it would have saved on some logistics and maintenance training/induction due to existing Puma knowledge.
> 
> However, now it would be a very late entrant to the mix unless denel decides to get up tomorrow and go pitch it @denel


Not just that there was a lot of issues with US and Europeans; but now the markets are wide open and we have major home grown players outside the parastatal bodies which are really delivering outstanding solutions. the game has just began.


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## JK!

What does the future hold for SA330 in Pakistani service? Is there scope to transition to the H125 and consider Rooivalk alongside it?

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## fatman17

JK! said:


> What does the future hold for SA330 in Pakistani service? Is there scope to transition to the H125 and consider Rooivalk alongside it?


I doubt it. more MI17s and Cobra AH1Zs in my opinion. There are issues with WZ10 and the Turkish T129 may have issues with 3rd party NOCs.

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## mikaal hassan

I have got a question what if instead of getting AH -1z viper for a almost 1 billion dollar why Pakistan army didn't go for South African roovialk ...it could have been a similar project like jf17 start from basic and keep upgrading ....why spend 1 billon dollar on usa helicopters which you can't even upgrade now specially With India getting apache ...plus all three services could have added puma helicopters by combining both helicopters for full or partial TOT as a package from South Africa too saving money...


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## touqeer haq

mikaal hassan said:


> I have got a question what if instead of getting AH -1z viper for a almost 1 billion dollar why Pakistan army didn't go for South African roovialk ...it could have been a similar project like jf17 start from basic and keep upgrading ....why spend 1 billon dollar on usa helicopters which you can't even upgrade now specially With India getting apache ...plus all three services could have added puma helicopters by combining both helicopters for full or partial TOT as a package from South Africa too saving money...



Well it's coming under foreign sale assistance, and we are not paying a lot towards the payment. So, not a bad idea. Secondly American got best technology nd by getting ur hands on them, lessons can be integrated in projects with China. So, I guess getting these make sense. 1 billion is total cost of Helios, 1000 hell fire, spares, training nd technical support. Yes they are not reliable but still we will get good technology. South African Helios can't be compare.


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## ziaulislam

touqeer haq said:


> Well it's coming under foreign sale assistance, and we are not paying a lot towards the payment. So, not a bad idea. Secondly American got best technology nd by getting ur hands on them, lessons can be integrated in projects with China. So, I guess getting these make sense. 1 billion is total cost of Helios, 1000 hell fire, spares, training nd technical support. Yes they are not reliable but still we will get good technology. South African Helios can't be compare.


There is no where documented that its coming as FMF. Can you share the link/source for it. As far as general news reports it seems we are paying every cent


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## mikaal hassan

so we paid $975 million dollars to USA instead of taking a good opportunity to streamline a supplier for 2 different categories of helicopters and not just a simple supplier a supplier who wont stop you from upgrading the helicopters instead they will work with you to make the product better every day the big plus point as much transfer of technology you want ....then you come back to what else your 3 forces plus your civil armed forces need MRAP from south Africa your ARMY PERSONAL, RANGERS,POLICE young guys who are conducting operations every day against terrorist haven't got proper protection a lot of lives could have been saved and still can be saved ....may be senior member like MASTAN KHAN IS right the all 3 ARMED FORCES are just too busy in building and managing housing societies .....the whole package could have further added products like the g6 howitzer if it passed our test and fulfil what is required instead of another green card for f 16 scenario


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Procuring the Rooivalk, H215m and H225m wouldn't be a bad idea, but for it to work, a few major things will need to line up. Basically, Pakistan needs Airbus Helicopters' to not only approve of the Puma's engines and dynamic components (e.g. main rotor, tail rotor, gearbox, etc) for the Rooivalk, but also transfer the technology the engine maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) and dynamic components. 

I believe if Pakistan gets the ability to have engine MRO and to locally manufacture the dynamic components, it would have very little trouble in locally supporting the Rooivalk, Super Puma and Caracal. 

That aside, the deep commonality (engine and dynamic components) between the Rooivalk, H125m (Super Puma) and H225m (Caracal) would be a major benefit. The Rooivalk can be used as a heavyweight attack helicopter to support our armour; the Super Puma can serve as a mainstay medium-lift utility helicopter; and the Caracal can serve as a naval warfare and heavy-medium utility helicopter.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think South Africans have clearly mentioned "Full Transfer of Tech"

But technically we can get similar deal with Turkey or China as well 
T-129 
Z-10 

Are front runners


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## JK!

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Procuring the Rooivalk, H215m and H225m wouldn't be a bad idea, but for it to work, a few major things will need to line up. Basically, Pakistan needs Airbus Helicopters' to not only approve of the Puma's engines and dynamic components (e.g. main rotor, tail rotor, gearbox, etc) for the Rooivalk, but also transfer the technology the engine maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) and dynamic components.
> 
> I believe if Pakistan gets the ability to have engine MRO and to locally manufacture the dynamic components, it would have very little trouble in locally supporting the Rooivalk, Super Puma and Caracal.
> 
> That aside, the deep commonality (engine and dynamic components) between the Rooivalk, H125m (Super Puma) and H225m (Caracal) would be a major benefit. The Rooivalk can be used as a heavyweight attack helicopter to support our armour; the Super Puma can serve as a mainstay medium-lift utility helicopter; and the Caracal can serve as a naval warfare and heavy-medium utility helicopter.



You recently posted articles reference Embraer transport aircraft and I believe Brazil are producing Pumas under licence. 

Could a South African/Brazilian option be looked into?

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## mikaal hassan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Procuring the Rooivalk, H215m and H225m wouldn't be a bad idea, but for it to work, a few major things will need to line up. Basically, Pakistan needs Airbus Helicopters' to not only approve of the Puma's engines and dynamic components (e.g. main rotor, tail rotor, gearbox, etc) for the Rooivalk, but also transfer the technology the engine maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) and dynamic components.
> 
> I believe if Pakistan gets the ability to have engine MRO and to locally manufacture the dynamic components, it would have very little trouble in locally supporting the Rooivalk, Super Puma and Caracal.
> 
> That aside, the deep commonality (engine and dynamic components) between the Rooivalk, H125m (Super Puma) and H225m (Caracal) would be a major benefit. The Rooivalk can be used as a heavyweight attack helicopter to support our armour; the Super Puma can serve as a mainstay medium-lift utility helicopter; and the Caracal can serve as a naval warfare and heavy-medium utility helicopter.



if you look at what airbus been trying to do from past couple of months in Romania with the revival of the production line for h215m to reduce the production cost and compete with Russian mi17 helicopters in my view it is possible ...last year business report issued by airbus shows airbus only sold 23 super puma ..right now they are only concentrating on single engine light helicopters for them it will be a win win situation they can get a big customer like Pakistan who need helicopters to upgrade its ageing fleet ,, if we buy both helicopters from south africa specially the rooivalk will be a lot better option then Chinese or Turkish option

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JK! said:


> You recently posted articles reference Embraer transport aircraft and I believe Brazil are producing Pumas under licence.
> 
> Could a South African/Brazilian option be looked into?


Technically yes, any Airbus Helicopters licensed manufacturer could be given a production contract. However, if Pakistan slots in plans for 100+ H215m and H225m helicopters, it might want Airbus Helicopters to provide rights and technology for MRO, assembly, and parts manufacturing (especially dynamic components) to PAC. 

Ultimately, airframe parts from South Africa (Rooivalk), Romania (Super Puma), Brazil (Cougar/Caracal), France (Cougar/Caracal) would be paired with those made in Pakistan.

But Pakistan will need to take it up with Airbus Helicopters first and foremost. Fortunately (for that idea), Pakistan is an Airbus Helicopters buyer, and the company even has a contact office in Pakistan.

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## mikaal hassan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Technically yes, any Airbus Helicopters licensed manufacturer could be given a production contract. However, if Pakistan slots in plans for 100+ H215m and H225m helicopters, it might want Airbus Helicopters to provide rights and technology for MRO, assembly, and parts manufacturing (especially dynamic components) to PAC.
> 
> Ultimately, airframe parts from South Africa (Rooivalk), Romania (Super Puma), Brazil (Cougar/Caracal), France (Cougar/Caracal) would be paired with those made in Pakistan.
> 
> But Pakistan will need to take it up with Airbus Helicopters first and foremost. Fortunately (for that idea), Pakistan is an Airbus Helicopters buyer, and the company even has a contact office in Pakistan.


Respectfully Sir do you think rooivalk will be a lot better option then Turkish or Chinese as pak army aviation department is familiar with the engines


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mikaal hassan said:


> Respectfully Sir do you think rooivalk will be a lot better option then Turkish or Chinese as pak army aviation department is familiar with the engines


The Rooivalk is a heavier platform, it can carry more ATGM than either T-129 or Z-10. The T-129 is apparently optimized or great in hot-and-high conditions, which could be good for operations in the Northern Areas. The Z-10 is from China, and supply assurances are valuable. It is up to the Pakistan Army to pick the one with the best balance of performance, cost, availability and support to the local defence industry.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The Chinese / Turkish platforms are more modern as these were recently manufactured. Latest Tech inside
The South African gunship I would imagine would be a bit step or two behind technologically

From performance prespective I expect all 3 platforms to be relatively close

Does the South African Gunship lacks advance features Digital Cockpit and Targeting system
I imagine that since it is a older platform it would have more traditional analog based systems and traditional target and shoot mechanism







T-129 bit more modern and current Technology 





Z-10 Again a more modern solution


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The Chinese / Turkish platforms are more modern as these were recently manufactured. Latest Tech inside
> The South African gunship I would imagine would be a bit step or two behind technologically
> 
> From performance prespective I expect all 3 platforms to be relatively close
> 
> Does the South African Gunship lacks advance features Digital Cockpit and Targeting system
> I imagine that since it is a older platform it would have more traditional analog based systems and traditional target and shoot mechanism


The Rooivalk Mk2 will get updated avionics, countermeasures and EO/IR sensor.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Again this would go down to wire , see how our Military wants to move forward the prospect of Transfer of technology is beneficial , obviously a bit older but as you stated may be the chopper will go thru upgrade lets see

I personally feel the T-129 (Lighter agile ) and Z-10 (Tad bit Heavier Class) covers the need for Pakistan Military Aviation

Together with Puma Serial Production for Transportation from Romania or Italian Choppers

The South African offering is a wild horse in all this nice chopper would still be better option then our existing Cobra fleet (Outside shot) 


Only way I imagine it would get selected or consideration is due to its missile tech and Transfer of technology offering and modernization goals


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Again this would go down to wire , see how our Military wants to move forward the prospect of Transfer of technology is beneficial , obviously a bit older but as you stated may be the chopper will go thru upgrade lets see
> 
> I personally feel the T-129 (Lighter class) and Z-10 (Heavier Class) covers the need for Pakistan Military Aviation
> Together with Puma Serial Production for Transportation
> 
> The South African offering is a wild horse in all this


The T-129 and Z-10 are practically identical in their weight and physical capabilities. The PAA would only need one and each has its distinct advantages; the T-129 is well suited for high-altitude operations (i.e. Northern Areas) and the Z-10 is from China, which assures supply. The Rooivalk's size is in the league of the Mi-28NE and Apache.

No point in pursing the Super Puma on its own when the PAA has Mi-171s. The Super Puma would make the most sense if the Rooivalk is also procured - common engines and dynamic components. Otherwise, stick to the Mi-171.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well I would like Military to target ready products , so we can start adding to our fleet vs , future to be state crafts or Helicopter as we can't just wait forever for addressing the aviation corps needs or Navy Fleet needs

You raised a great point perhaps some similarities in Engine support and parts support etc great point

Lets see how things proceed , as stated before any platform at this stage that offers a serial production is an improvement over our existing Cobra fleet

However I would be suprised if T-129 does not comes or we don't increase Z-10 fleet numbers


*Present Situation*

*Super Cobras :* Not sufficient quantity to make any major impact due to low numbers and price, good platform just not sufficient quantity for needs for national defence
*Z-10 : * Proper Chopper but need more numbers
*T-129 :* Completed platform , trials and reviews
*Cobra Fleet:* Older then Suzuki Mehran
*Italian Choppers (Transport)* : Ok platform but limited numbers
*Mi-19 :* Ok platform but we lack Service factory
*Mi-35 :* Been waiting for 1 years for arrival
*Bell (Transport):* Good as they were in 1970

So general theme really is need a bit more streamlined company in Pakistan / Factory to standardized all the Helicopter unit service and purchase


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well I would like Military to target ready products , so we can start adding to our fleet vs , future to be state crafts and helicopters as it may take 4-5 years for arrival of such promised platforms


The Rooivalk Mk2 isn't an abstract program. It is essentially just the Rooivalk with upgraded electronics and new weapons integration (e.g. Mokopa ATGM). It wouldn't take 4-5 years, but 1-2 years to see it enter testing. Besides, why would the Army be in a rush when it is going to busy inducting and integrating the AH-1Z?

The Rooivalk Mk2 isn't ready for sale, but then again, it is being offered with ToT. There's a trade-off in that you could wait a bit and get a Mi-28NE-grade helicopter with mature and commonly available engines, modern sub-systems, and commonality with an affordable transport helicopter.

IMO a neat mix would be some T-129s for scout and high-altitude operations, and then a larger number of Rooivalk Mk2 using the same sensor pod, avionics, countermeasures and weapons as the T-129.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

It would be really difficult to overlook this latest tech item in present evaluations
Its like we cold be riding a stallion, and have safety , vs walking on bare feet for 2-4 years only for a "Promissed" good to arrive to us in the 5th year....

Not smart to keep investing in assets that will take 5-7 years to materialize

I don't even count the Super Cobra as anything special in our Military arsenal just something to show off in parade not practical for strategic usage from a Military prespective what is 3-5 units going to do for our Military "Zilch"






Similarly the Chinese offering would be easier to service , get a small local workship setup etc and ensure we have quantity based on our requirement 

Its rediculous to wait for 2-5 years for 3 Choppers


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## fatman17

touqeer haq said:


> Well it's coming under foreign sale assistance, and we are not paying a lot towards the payment. So, not a bad idea. Secondly American got best technology nd by getting ur hands on them, lessons can be integrated in projects with China. So, I guess getting these make sense. 1 billion is total cost of Helios, 1000 hell fire, spares, training nd technical support. Yes they are not reliable but still we will get good technology. South African Helios can't be compare.


Wrong. Pakistan buying super cobras and hellfires with 100% Pakistan resources.

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## Cool_Soldier

Mi 35 is schedule to be deliver in 2017
A1 Z1 is also schedule for delivery in 2017
T-129 deal is also expected in July 2017

I hope, 2017 would be wonderful for PAA.


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## mikaal hassan

right now the army has got too many different types of helicopters for doing a similar job ....may be a senior member would like to open a separate thread for gunship and transport helicopters to have a proper discussion.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Rooivalk Mk2 isn't an abstract program. It is essentially just the Rooivalk with upgraded electronics and new weapons integration (e.g. Mokopa ATGM). It wouldn't take 4-5 years, but 1-2 years to see it enter testing. Besides, why would the Army be in a rush when it is going to busy inducting and integrating the AH-1Z?
> 
> The Rooivalk Mk2 isn't ready for sale, but then again, it is being offered with ToT. There's a trade-off in that you could wait a bit and get a Mi-28NE-grade helicopter with mature and commonly available engines, modern sub-systems, and commonality with an affordable transport helicopter.
> 
> IMO a neat mix would be some T-129s for scout and high-altitude operations, and then a larger number of Rooivalk Mk2 using the same sensor pod, avionics, countermeasures and weapons as the T-129.


i think if the army can be a bit patience and use some brain for a change .. they might be able to get a better helicopter in the form of rooivalk instead of buying T-129 or z-10 and then running around looking for a heavy helicopter to compete against indian Apache ...sir in your opinion do we really need a light gunship helicopter ?


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## JK!

South Africa did a really badass upgrade of Alegerias Hind gunships a few years back. Believe the firm was ATE Aerospace but not able to find any further info at the moment.

Reference above: ATE Aerospace were acquired by Paramount Group. The above is marketed on their website as the Night Hawk.

Also a pretty sweet Mi17 upgrade.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Our problem , not that helicopters exist in world. Or that companies are droing great mods and upgrades on these Choppers.

Our issue is not ordering sufficient quantity due time and not negotiating a timely fast release of products

Look at MI-35 pending order for long time
Look at Super Cobra pending order from god knows were I head about it in 2009 after 2014 we will get SuperCobra

Turkey for example due to serial production ramped up *20+ T-129* enough for their needs in few years

*China Z-10* 100+ Units Since 2012

Mean while we are still waiting for 2-3 Chopper delivery since 2009

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## mikaal hassan

i agree with you on that when you look at numbers of helicopters in all categories its too much fish market style purchasing going on clear example is MI 35 , why just buy 4
GOING back to super Cobra there might be a case of similar to F16 someone gott a big bribe to buy them

any one got actual updated number of transport helicopters we got from different manufacturers up till now ...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Present Core is 1970 Cobra fleet 40-50 units, plus standard 1970 Bell Transport
General consensus is retirement of these units as part of modernization effort

Replacement fleet

3 Z-10 (Trial run with force, Parade presence)
??? T-129 (Seems potentially a done deal )

Only reasonable addition planned for future (Duct tape solution)

2-3 Mi-35 (Expected arrival 2017 )
3 Super Cobras (Expected arrival 2017 ) (8 to be deivered later years)


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## Muhammad Omar

Is there any Chance that PAA is looking to Expand the Fleet 

Like 

15-20 Zulu
40 TAI T-129
40 WZ-10


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## JK!

Muhammad Omar said:


> Is there any Chance that PAA is looking to Expand the Fleet
> 
> Like
> 
> 15-20 Zulu
> 40 TAI T-129
> 40 WZ-10



@fatman17 has stated the overall requirement to be around 60 choppers in 3 Squadrons. The commitment is to more Zulus so it would look like either T129 or WZ10 complementing them.

The T129 could offer scope for common Western systems and WZ10 offers stability of supply and diversification.

For myself Rooivalk is wishful thinking as it's potentially a great system and nearly won the Turkish bid until Eurocopter made supply of parts an issue.


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## bananarepublic

I believe that pakistan should go for roovalik it is an excellent platform and is bang for a buck it also out performs Apache in many field such as range plus we can get Full TOT i also think that if we select roovalik we can integrate our own avionics such as from t-129 from turkey or any other power plant options could be China or russian and if we do we can get an overhauling plant for our mi-8 transport helo @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can you tell me if it is possible t integrate different avionics and poweplant
if not we have the prospect of manufacturing the super puma and excellent choice
the Roovalik is an excellent platform needing having low maintenance being cheaper while also out performing the apahe it is an excellent contender for desert and plain areas while we can use the AH-1z for high altitudes.
Just think about it we need a platform to counter india`s armored column which should be a heavy weight platform and should have the prospects of self reliance which fits Roovalik.
while there are t-129 and wz-10 i believe their capabilities are more towards high altitudes and agility which contradicts the accusation of ah-1z.


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## mikaal hassan

jk the only way to sort out the parts supply issue from airbus will be to add the Rooivalk +h215m and h225m as a package for all 3 armed forces + including the civil and paramilitary forces too make it a bigger package for airbus that they cant refuse ask for some technology transfer so we can start our helicopter industry ...
right now the we are dealing with 4 different suppliers 
USA
RUSSIA 
AIRBUS HELICOPTER 
AND ITALIANS

IF you look at over all industry according to western analyst the market has been and is still very slow for civilian helicopters 
here is the link to a video for HeliExpo 2017 in usa to show most major manufactures are only concentrating on small single engine helicopters .


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> It would be really difficult to overlook this latest tech item in present evaluations
> Its like we cold be riding a stallion, and have safety , vs walking on bare feet for 2-4 years only for a "Promissed" good to arrive to us in the 5th year....
> 
> Not smart to keep investing in assets that will take 5-7 years to materialize
> 
> I don't even count the Super Cobra as anything special in our Military arsenal just something to show off in parade not practical for strategic usage from a Military prespective what is 3-5 units going to do for our Military "Zilch"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Similarly the Chinese offering would be easier to service , get a small local workship setup etc and ensure we have quantity based on our requirement
> 
> Its rediculous to wait for 2-5 years for 3 Choppers


Why would it be ridiculous to wait? Pakistan isn't a cash flush country, waiting enables the Army (and the rest of the armed forces) to spread their expenditures, finish prior commitments and avoid a crunch. We are talking about short-term intervals (3-5 years) here, not inter-generational periods (15-20 years). Time is a non-issue, especially when a new platform is already slotted for induction over the next 18 months (AH-1Z). 

In the case of the Rooivalk Mk2, we are not talking about a completely new platform. The Rooivalk Mk2 is basically the same Rooivalk that was designed, developed and produced by Denel Aviation in the 1990s and 2000s, but with an updated electronics (e.g. avionics, sensor, countermeasures) and weapons suite. 

Moreover, this isn't next-generation fighter stuff here. The updated electronics and weapons in question can be procured off-the-shelf (e.g. from Turkey) and integrated in relatively short order. The main lead time for the Rooivalk is having Denel re-activate the production line and, if requested, transfer the technology for production and depot-level maintenance to Pakistan.

Which leads to another point: if you are asking for any supplier - be it South Africa, China or Turkey - for ToT and MRO, then there is going to be a significant lead-time regardless. You'll be waiting a few years regardless of the option you pick (case in point, Pakistan signed the HQ-16 deal in 2013-2014, deliveries began in 2017).

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## mikaal hassan

Rooivalk Mk2 + h215 for Pakistan are ideal as both helicopters need a customer who can invest and then keep upgrading and learning from them .right now both helicopters supplier are stuck in a corner with no one willing to invest in them


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## Muhammad Omar

mikaal hassan said:


> Rooivalk Mk2 + h215 for Pakistan are ideal as both helicopters need a customer who can invest and then keep upgrading and learning from them .right now both helicopters supplier are stuck in a corner with no one willing to invest in them



Why not Simply buy which is already Upgraded and up to the mark rather then investing in a Heli which needs investment and for Up-gradation we will still look towards the western countries

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Muhammad Omar said:


> Why not Simply buy which is already Upgraded and up to the mark rather then investing in a Heli which needs investment and for Up-gradation we will still look towards the western countries




I also agree T-129 is already complete , with latest Avionics and latest tech Turkey is a stategic defence partner 

Same story with Z-10 helicopter and similar China-Pakistan relations are solid

*Rooivalk Mk2 Project: (Should be a side thought if learning is objective)*

MOU Phase 

Finance Phase
Actual commencement / Development phase
Testing phase 

Transfer or knowledge phase
Work completion / Deliver phase
Serial Production
*Looking at 5-7 years of full benefits from program to see 10-15 units inducted in 5 years *

The short term goal should be to get what we need now which serves for 10 years


With T-129 / Z-10 , we can induct 50 Choppers in 3-4 years and we will also setup local workship 99% chance of that happening


*Rooivalk Mk2 Feels like a Mirage ROSE upgrade project *


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## mikaal hassan

the whole point of investing in a right product is to start your own helicopter industry learn and fulfil your requirements instead of patching up like we have been doing for last 20+ years where we have bought 10 from one supplier 5 from another supplier instead of building them in house ..right now USA wont give you any thing with TOT same goes for Russians and Italian manufacturer so whose left which have got 2 products which you need for long term South Africa/Airbus which are mature product manufacturers or Chinese who are still playing catch up

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well at present all deals are in Limbo due to Panama cases

T-129 deal has not been announced yet , however 90% chance of announcement
Z-10 aready in Pakistan's inventory , however followup order pending
Super Cobras , ordered arrival awaited slow delivery
Mi-35 , Ordered a while back awaiting delivery , same exeprience of wait
Augusta Westland (Italian) , ordered also waiting


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## JK!

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) fully appreciate Pakistan is fiscally limited when it comes to purchases and can only integrate so many systems at once.

We've previously agreed on the issue of commonality of components for Pakistani MBTs and support fleets. 

It would be good to see that approach in places like aviation too. Had a quick glance of systems and turboshafts compared to current/future acquisitions.

With AH1Z options include: UH60, AW101, AW149, UH1Y, NH90

Concerning Mi35 commonality of engines is already found in the Mi17s in service.

TAI 129 has engine commonality with AW159 Wildcat. I understand Turkey are looking at Indigenous power plants though.

WZ10 has engine and component commonality with WZ19 and Z9 the latter being in service with Pakistan Navy. The Engine is also used in Army Fennecs.

Rooivalk offers commonality with Pumas in Pakistani Service.

If Pakistan is committed to the Vipers then it would be good to see UH1Y inducted later in the future. Pakistan is familiar already with operating Bell type helicopters.

I'd have to favour the WZ10 over the T129 based on the above too.

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## mikaal hassan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I also agree T-129 is already complete , with latest Avionics and latest tech Turkey is a stategic defence partner
> 
> Same story with Z-10 helicopter and similar China-Pakistan relations are solid
> *Rooivalk Mk2 Project: (Should be a side thought if learning is objective)*
> 
> MOU Phase
> 
> Finance Phase
> Actual commencement / Development phase
> Testing phase
> 
> Transfer or knowledge phase
> Work completion / Deliver phase
> Serial Production
> *Looking at 5-7 years of full benefits from program to see 10-15 units inducted in 5 years *
> 
> The short term goal should be to get what we need now which serves for 10 years
> 
> 
> With T-129 / Z-10 , we can induct 50 Choppers in 3-4 years and we will also setup local workship 99% chance of that happening
> 
> 
> *Rooivalk Mk2 Feels like a Mirage ROSE upgrade project *


with rooivalk you are adding h215 super puma as well as a package similar product similar engine similar transmission plus Rooivalk is in Apache category ...and if the army can act like a smart business man they can add the MRAPS and G6 howitzer (IF PASS OUR TRIALS ) 4 PRODUCTS one supplier who is looking for money and wont give you any headache with TOT

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I think a great approach would be to procure 15 T-129 in the short-term. The PAA can utilize the hot-and-high performance element and station them in the Northern Areas. I'm not sure where the Z-10 stands, it didn't take part in the latest March 23 Parade (@Arsalan ?). Building upon the T-129 program, work with Aselsan and Roketsan to integrate the T-129's electronics, sensor pod, countermeasures and weapons to the Rooivalk Mk2. From there, gradually add more T-129s (e.g. bring the fleet up to 45) and pivot to the Rooivalk Mk2 once in full-swing.


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## Rocky rock

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think a great approach would be to procure 15 T-129 in the short-term. The PAA can utilize the hot-and-high performance element and station them in the Northern Areas. I'm not sure where the Z-10 stands, it didn't take part in the latest March 23 Parade (@Arsalan ?). Building upon the T-129 program, work with Aselsan and Roketsan to integrate the T-129's electronics, sensor pod, countermeasures and weapons to the Rooivalk Mk2. From there, gradually add more T-129s (e.g. bring the fleet up to 45) and pivot to the Rooivalk Mk2 once in full-swing.



Do you guy's think it makes any sense to procure two same types of different aircraft's for same role in army?
we'll have to choose one of these T-129 or Z-10 as we selected Cobra before.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Rocky rock said:


> Do you guy's think it makes any sense to procure two same types of different aircraft's for same role in army?
> we'll have to choose one of these T-129 or Z-10 as we selected Cobra before.


If the PAA wants multiple attack helicopter platforms, it needs each type to provide distinct advantages.

For example, the T-129 is apparently a good system for high-altitude operations, this would be helpful in the Northern Areas. Otherwise, the T-129 is a medium-weight helicopter, and so is the Z-10.

The PAA would ask: "since they're both med-weight, what advantage does the Z-10 offer over the T-129?" Technically, none. So pick the T-129 and build upon it via depot-level maintenance, platform access, etc.

In the end, the PAA will only pick one of the Z-10 or T-129. The T-129 has a technical advantage, but the Z-10 has a supply-side advantage, no chance of embargoes and potentially lower acquisition costs.

The reason why I keep bringing up the Rooivalk is because it is a different class of helicopter; it's large like the Apache and Mi-28NE, so it can carry more ATGMs than the T-129/Z-10. You can basically fit a millimeter wave radar above the top-rotor and arm it with 16 ATGMs (like the Apache). It offers a different advantage.

In my opinion, the ideal approach would be T-129 (light) and Rooivalk Mk2 (heavy), with the Rooivalk equipped with the same gear and weapons as the T-129.

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## Blue Marlin

i highly doubt pakistan would go for the rooivalk. sure its based of the puma which pakistan operates but that in all brings very little as pakistan would only be familiar with the parts and thats it, and even then they would be modified.

the z10 is the more sensible solution due to price(not known but defiantly lower than the rooivalk)
the t129 is a good chopper but the engine issue is still sketchy.

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## fatman17

Muhammad Omar said:


> Why not Simply buy which is already Upgraded and up to the mark rather then investing in a Heli which needs investment and for Up-gradation we will still look towards the western countries


Countries always have their requirements and modifications.

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## Rocky rock

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If the PAA wants multiple attack helicopter platforms, it needs each type to provide distinct advantages.
> 
> For example, the T-129 is apparently a good system for high-altitude operations, this would be helpful in the Northern Areas. Otherwise, the T-129 is a medium-weight helicopter, and so is the Z-10.
> 
> The PAA would ask: "since they're both med-weight, what advantage does the Z-10 offer over the T-129?" Technically, none. So pick the T-129 and build upon it via depot-level maintenance, platform access, etc.
> 
> In the end, the PAA will only pick one of the Z-10 or T-129. The T-129 has a technical advantage, but the Z-10 has a supply-side advantage, no chance of embargoes and potentially lower acquisition costs.
> 
> The reason why I keep bringing up the Rooivalk is because it is a different class of helicopter; it's large like the Apache and Mi-28NE, so it can carry more ATGMs than the T-129/Z-10. You can basically fit a millimeter wave radar above the top-rotor and arm it with 16 ATGMs (like the Apache). It offers a different advantage.
> 
> In my opinion, the ideal approach would be T-129 (light) and Rooivalk Mk2 (heavy), with the Rooivalk equipped with the same gear and weapons as the T-129.


There's no chance for Rooivalk. We can manage the same upload thing by increasing the units. Like we always did. Ex:Jf-17 thunder. We need an potent & agile aircraft which proves to be effective in war scenarios.

Z-10 is a fine choice. We must go for T-129 in one case if Pakistan is planning to start co-production with full TOT then it would be a fair choice otherwise z-10 would be an easy go. Even in war time we can maintain our numbers in no time.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Rocky rock said:


> There's no chance for Rooivalk. We can manage the same upload thing by increasing the units. Like we always did. Ex:Jf-17 thunder. We need an potent & agile aircraft which proves to be effective in war scenarios.
> 
> Z-10 is a fine choice. We must go for T-129 in one case if Pakistan is planning to start co-production with full TOT then it would be a fair choice otherwise z-10 would be an easy go. Even in war time we can maintain our numbers in no time.


Numbers will never compensate for heavier payload. With more units, you require more fuel, sorties as well as maintenance people to ensure that those numbers compensate for a heavy gunship. In a single sortie a Rooivalk can deploy 16 ATGM. In fact, that very same single Rooivalk can carry 16 ATGM and ferry a millimeter wave radar on its top rotor. Pulling off similar capabilities aboard smaller helicopters would necessitate more flying units to provide payload and possibly a scout or two to carry the radar. 

Anyways, the heavier payload wasn't the Rooivalk's only advantage. With the Rooivalk, we also have the fact that it shares the engines, rotors and gearbox as the Super Puma transport helicopter. The Pakistan MoDP was apparently interested in Pumas built in Romania, and the only Pumas coming out of Romania are Super Pumas. Such level of commonality is a major advantage in its own right - common logistics and maintenance channel, single investment (in infrastructure) supporting two different platforms, and a chance to localize a lot of it via ToT.


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## mikaal hassan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Numbers will never compensate for heavier payload. With more units, you require more fuel, sorties as well as maintenance people to ensure that those numbers compensate for a heavy gunship. In a single sortie a Rooivalk can deploy 16 ATGM. In fact, that very same single Rooivalk can carry 16 ATGM and ferry a millimeter wave radar on its top rotor. Pulling off similar capabilities aboard smaller helicopters would necessitate more flying units to provide payload and possibly a scout or two to carry the radar.
> 
> Anyways, the heavier payload wasn't the Rooivalk's only advantage. With the Rooivalk, we also have the fact that it shares the engines, rotors and gearbox as the Super Puma transport helicopter. The Pakistan MoDP was apparently interested in Pumas built in Romania, and the only Pumas coming out of Romania are Super Pumas. Such level of commonality is a major advantage in its own right - common logistics and maintenance channel, single investment (in infrastructure) supporting two different platforms, and a chance to localize a lot of it via ToT.


B
WE should discuss Rooivalk and super puma as a combine package in a separate thread then a lot guys filling up this this thread wont keep going back to same old thing again and again .


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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think a great approach would be to procure 15 T-129 in the short-term. The PAA can utilize the hot-and-high performance element and station them in the Northern Areas. I'm not sure where the Z-10 stands, it didn't take part in the latest March 23 Parade (@Arsalan ?). Building upon the T-129 program, work with Aselsan and Roketsan to integrate the T-129's electronics, sensor pod, countermeasures and weapons to the Rooivalk Mk2. From there, gradually add more T-129s (e.g. bring the fleet up to 45) and pivot to the Rooivalk Mk2 once in full-swing.


NO sir it was not there in 23rd March parade. Should we take this as an indicator that PA have lost its interest in the gunship at least for now is something i am not sure about. The two were here as a gift with an intention that these are to be evaluated and put to test in actual combat. There were a few glitches reported as well. It might be a case that these were sent back with some recommended modification and will return back and may well be accompanied or joined later by few others as well.



Blue Marlin said:


> i highly doubt pakistan would go for the rooivalk. sure its based of the puma which pakistan operates but that in all brings very little as pakistan would only be familiar with the parts and thats it, and even then they would be modified.
> 
> the z10 is the more sensible solution due to price(not known but defiantly lower than the rooivalk)
> the t129 is a good chopper but the engine issue is still sketchy.


I agree. I also doubt that Pakistan will go for Rooivalk.

However i cannot disagree when @Bilal Khan (Quwa) here says that Rooivalk will make a lot of sense and will be an excellent platform for us.

It is a heavy chopper, meaning more fire power
It have lot of commonality with Puma and we can make Puma (newer versions) our next main medium lift helicopter. It is an excellent platform and can serve with Navy too.
Puma and Rooivalk as a combined complete package will be EXCLLENT. We can setup a shop here for repair, maintenance and even upgrades and that can take care the bulk of our rotary aircraft fleet under one roof. 

South Africans can be an excellent partner in defense sector. They have a huge number of goodies to offer, SAM, Artiller, MARPS, IFVs/APC and this gunship. To be honest, it looks like Pakistan might not be going for anything from this list but that do not means that we SHOULD NOT. There is a lot to gain there. I hope the concerned authorities are evaluating this potential as well.

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## fatman17

Air Transportation: Pakistan Buys The Best For SAR

April 18, 2017: Pakistan has quietly ordered four more AW139 helicopters for SAR (search and rescue) and Medevac (medical evacuation) missions in high altitude areas. The AW139 has demonstrated the ability to operate like that and has been ordered by dozens of nations because of those capabilities. With the continued counter-terror operations in Pakistan it’s no surprise that Pakistan is buying more equipment best suited for use in the high-altitude areas along the Afghan border where there has been the most Islamic terrorist activity. The Pakistan government already uses some AW139s for SAR and Medevac but this latest order is specifically for the military. 

AW139 transport helicopters are built by Anglo-Italian firm AgustaWestland. AW139s cost $20 million and up each depending on accessories and support contracts. These eight ton choppers carry up to 15 passengers and can get by with just one pilot. They have a very large cabin and can hold up to four stretchers, which is one reason it is so popular for medevac. Cruise speed is 288 kilometers an hour and endurance averages 3.2 hours. The AW149, a military version of the AW139, is also available but is more expensive. The AW139 competes with the U.S. UH-60 and another European helicopter, the slightly larger NH90. Entering service in 2003 nearly 800 AW139s have been delivered or are on order.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Air Transportation: Pakistan Buys The Best For SAR
> 
> April 18, 2017: Pakistan has quietly ordered four more AW139 helicopters for SAR (search and rescue) and Medevac (medical evacuation) missions in high altitude areas. The AW139 has demonstrated the ability to operate like that and has been ordered by dozens of nations because of those capabilities. With the continued counter-terror operations in Pakistan it’s no surprise that Pakistan is buying more equipment best suited for use in the high-altitude areas along the Afghan border where there has been the most Islamic terrorist activity. The Pakistan government already uses some AW139s for SAR and Medevac but this latest order is specifically for the military.
> 
> AW139 transport helicopters are built by Anglo-Italian firm AgustaWestland. AW139s cost $20 million and up each depending on accessories and support contracts. These eight ton choppers carry up to 15 passengers and can get by with just one pilot. They have a very large cabin and can hold up to four stretchers, which is one reason it is so popular for medevac. Cruise speed is 288 kilometers an hour and endurance averages 3.2 hours. The AW149, a military version of the AW139, is also available but is more expensive. The AW139 competes with the U.S. UH-60 and another European helicopter, the slightly larger NH90. Entering service in 2003 nearly 800 AW139s have been delivered or are on order.


How many times this news will get repeated and when we would know the exact number which we ordered


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## fatman17

04 APR 2017





Russian Helicopters has made its first Mi-171E helicopter delivery to Pakistan
The reconfigurable version of the Mi-171E allows to use it as a transport aircraft and in the VIP configuration



Russian Helicopters has made its first Mi-171E civil multirole helicopter delivery to Pakistan.

Under the terms of the contract, the reconfigurable version of the Mi-171E was manufactured to allow for its use both as a transport aircraft and in the VIP cabin configuration.

As a transport aircraft, the Mi-171E is capable of carrying up to 27 passengers in the jump seats and up to four tons of cargo inside the cargo cabin or on the external sling. In the VIP cabin configuration the helicopter accommodates 13 passengers plus a flight attendant. 

Installation of the SAR equipment set, consisting of the LPG-150 winch and the TSL-1600 searchlight, further expands the scope of possible applications of the rotorcraft, according to Russian Helicopters. It is also equipped with an early ground proximity warning system, enhancing flight safety.

The delivery comes as Russian Helicopters, part of state-owned corporation Rostec, claims increasing sales of its range of aircraft. "The number of civil aviation air operators, particularly from South Asia, who place orders with us is growing", - comments Alexander Shcherbinin, deputy CEO for marketing and business development of Russian Helicopters.

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> How many times this news will get repeated and when we would know the exact number which we ordered


It says 4.

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## Rocky rock



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Loving that paint job and top part, none reflective paint. And brand new feeling


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## Blue Marlin

Arsalan said:


> However i cannot disagree when @Bilal Khan (Quwa) here says that Rooivalk will make a lot of sense and will be an excellent platform for us.
> 
> It is a heavy chopper, meaning more fire power
> It have lot of commonality with Puma and we can make Puma (newer versions) our next main medium lift helicopter. It is an excellent platform and can serve with Navy too.
> Puma and Rooivalk as a combined complete package will be EXCLLENT. We can setup a shop here for repair, maintenance and even upgrades and that can take care the bulk of our rotary aircraft fleet under one roof.
> 
> South Africans can be an excellent partner in defense sector. They have a huge number of goodies to offer, SAM, Artiller, MARPS, IFVs/APC and this gunship. To be honest, it looks like Pakistan might not be going for anything from this list but that do not means that we SHOULD NOT. There is a lot to gain there. I hope the concerned authorities are evaluating this potential as well.


it is a heavy chopper but an untested one at that. the chinese are most likely working on a more powerful engine to allow the z10 to hold 16 atgm's as opposed to the current 8 it can carry. it just a matter of time. the z10 is perfect for pakistan. price....... china will beat the competition and pakistan hold's a certain prestige as they (pakistan) are using chinese choppers actively in wot. just like how bell were doing back filps when they got the order for pakistans zulu's which aided them in attempting to makes sales elsewhere, an example being in poland and other places. also it servers as an advertisement too. 

from what i gathered from game.invade the puma's have an over heating issue hence the purchase of the aw139.
personally i wont even go for it, the design is old and inefficient. personally i would invest in some form of co-producing the aw-139 in pakistan. pakistan easily needs 200 at least spread to the 3 armed services, police, ambulance, vip transport, private purchase etc.........

south africa has a very good defence industry, the a-darter being my favourite weapon from SA.

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## Muhammad Omar

How Many more of these Mi-17IE will we get???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blue Marlin said:


> it is a heavy chopper but *an untested* one at that. the chinese are most likely working on a more powerful engine to allow the z10 to hold 16 atgm's as opposed to the current 8 it can carry. it just a matter of time. the z10 is perfect for pakistan. price....... china will beat the competition and pakistan hold's a certain prestige as they (pakistan) are using chinese choppers actively in wot. just like how bell were doing back filps when they got the order for pakistans zulu's which aided them in attempting to makes sales elsewhere, an example being in poland and other places. also it servers as an advertisement too.
> 
> from what i gathered from game.invade the puma's have an over heating issue hence the purchase of the aw139.
> personally i wont even go for it, the design is old and inefficient. personally i would invest in some form of co-producing the aw-139 in pakistan. pakistan easily needs 200 at least spread to the 3 armed services, police, ambulance, vip transport, private purchase etc.........
> 
> south africa has a very good defence industry, the a-darter being my favourite weapon from SA.


The Rooivalk was used in peacekeeping operations over the DRC. In fact, Denel said that it was because of the DRC mission that the Rooivalk began receiving outside interest again, and hence the push from Denel and the SA Gov't to revive the program via the Rooivalk Mk2.

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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Rooivalk was used in peacekeeping operations over the DRC. In fact, Denel said that it was because of the DRC mission that the Rooivalk began receiving outside interest again, and hence the push from Denel and the SA Gov't to revive the program via the Rooivalk Mk2.


well one needs to figure out which countries would be interested in rooivalk-2, my money is on the gcc. and they would want some form of tech transfer, like what the saudis did with the an132. speaking of the saudis, i wont be surprised if it is them with the interest.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blue Marlin said:


> well one needs to figure out which countries would be interested in rooivalk-2, my money is on the gcc. and they would want some form of tech transfer, like what the saudis did with the an132. speaking of the saudis, i wont be surprised if it is them with the interest.


IMO that as it may, it might be a lost opportunity to not grab this program. Denel's language on the Rooivalk Mk2 suggests the door to partner are open, and in turn, so are the benefits on offer (e.g. ToT). We might assume China and Turkey will provide ToT, but South Africa is promising it in the open and in a very general way (e.g. "set up an attack helicopter industry in the buying country").


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## mikaal hassan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Rooivalk was used in peacekeeping operations over the DRC. In fact, Denel said that it was because of the DRC mission that the Rooivalk began receiving outside interest again, and hence the push from Denel and the SA Gov't to revive the program via the Rooivalk Mk2.


Bilal Khan Sir have you heard of any heating issues with the puma helicopters ? because i havent heard of any heating issues otherwise oil drilling companies would have stopped using them long time ago ..


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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO that as it may, it might be a lost opportunity to not grab this program. Denel's language on the Rooivalk Mk2 suggests the door to partner are open, and in turn, so are the benefits on offer (e.g. ToT). We might assume China and Turkey will provide ToT, but South Africa is promising it in the open and in a very general way (e.g. "set up an attack helicopter industry in the buying country").


indeed it can open an industry but you must ask yourself this. how many will pakistan buy? and how many can it realistically sell? the answer to the first question is about 90 max. as for the second part most of the gcc are going for ah-64e's and upgrades from the 64d to the 64e. who's left? no one. can pakistan afford to have a helicopter industry (financially) possibly?

china can help pakistan with choppers, money and more importantly a huge degree of tot. can south africa help pakistan to the degree of the chinese? no

the way i see it is:

15 to 36 ah1-z (depending on how the new zulu's perform)
90 z10 (back bone)
~fennecs scounting/light attack
20 mil-35 border attack/assault


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blue Marlin said:


> indeed it can open an industry but you must ask yourself this. how many will pakistan buy? and how many can it realistically sell? the answer to the first question is about 90 max. as for the second part most of the gcc are going for ah-64e's and upgrades from the 64d to the 64e. who's left? no one. can pakistan afford to have a helicopter industry (financially) possibly?
> 
> china can help pakistan with choppers, money and more importantly a huge degree of tot. can south africa help pakistan to the degree of the chinese? no
> 
> the way i see it is:
> 
> 15 to 36 ah1-z (depending on how the new zulu's perform)
> 90 z10 (back bone)
> ~fennecs scounting/light attack
> 20 mil-35 border attack/assault


I wouldn't go for the ToT with the aim of having a full fledged industry per se, but I would aim for targeted ToT in key areas - e.g. engine MRO and local manufacturing of dynamic components (e.g. rotors) and spare parts. In this respect, one can independently maintain the Rooivalk and the Super Puma. Moreover, the SA Gov't said it would need to manufacture "about 60" Rooivalk Mk2 to make the program feasible (link). 

IIRC the SA Gov't basically had to write the Rooivalk R&D costs down the last time, meaning, the SANDF units absorbed those costs and the Rooivalk Mk2's development costs will be separate. The Rooivalk Mk2's costs would stem from re-warming the production line and procuring/integrating new subsystems and weapons. I don't think Denel will reinvent any wheels in the latter, so the subsystems will likely be COTS. Basically, the overhead may be thin enough for Pakistan to sustain provided it focuses the ToT to what's necessary to fully maintain a fleet.

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## mikaal hassan

what is the latest number of helicopters transpot and attack both ? according to manufacturers .


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## Arsalan

Blue Marlin said:


> it is a heavy chopper but an untested one at that. the chinese are most likely working on a more powerful engine to allow the z10 to hold 16 atgm's as opposed to the current 8 it can carry. it just a matter of time. the z10 is perfect for pakistan. price....... china will beat the competition and pakistan hold's a certain prestige as they (pakistan) are using chinese choppers actively in wot. just like how bell were doing back filps when they got the order for pakistans zulu's which aided them in attempting to makes sales elsewhere, an example being in poland and other places. also it servers as an advertisement too.
> 
> from what i gathered from game.invade the puma's have an over heating issue hence the purchase of the aw139.
> personally i wont even go for it, the design is old and inefficient. personally i would invest in some form of co-producing the aw-139 in pakistan. pakistan easily needs 200 at least spread to the 3 armed services, police, ambulance, vip transport, private purchase etc.........
> 
> south africa has a very good defence industry, the a-darter being my favorite weapon from SA.


Hmmm, Your point regarding Z10 do make a lot of sense. PA getting Z10 will be a win for both. I was however talking about Rooivalk as an addition to Z10. Then again, perhaps it was a bit too ambitious of me, operating three different gunships (Zulu, Z10 and Rooivalk) along with the Mi35 do not make much sense.

Let’s see what the Chinese can come up with. The two examples the send here were labeled as a gift but were in fact for evaluation purpose and were put through their paces in WoT. There were a few glitches reported and it is likely that the birds are back in China for modification and upgrades. I hope the Chinese can come up with some solution and then we can induct these in numbers. However I do not really like the idea of AW139 too much either as they are quite expensive. IF we are looking at numbers around 200 (and it can easily go up there if they come for all arms of military and fill in quite a few roles like medium lift, ambulance, SAR, VVIP transport etc) perhaps then it will make some sense. How about Mi17 however? They are reliable and robust, we are good with them and have decent support infrastructure, plus the Chinese are making them now so you know . . . . .
MI17 have slightly better payload but lesser range (which might not be that important in case of Pakistan).



fatman17 said:


> 04 APR 2017
> View attachment 392715
> 
> Russian Helicopters has made its first Mi-171E helicopter delivery to Pakistan
> The reconfigurable version of the Mi-171E allows to use it as a transport aircraft and in the VIP configuration
> 
> 
> 
> Russian Helicopters has made its first Mi-171E civil multirole helicopter delivery to Pakistan.
> 
> Under the terms of the contract, the reconfigurable version of the Mi-171E was manufactured to allow for its use both as a transport aircraft and in the VIP cabin configuration.
> 
> As a transport aircraft, the Mi-171E is capable of carrying up to 27 passengers in the jump seats and up to four tons of cargo inside the cargo cabin or on the external sling. In the VIP cabin configuration the helicopter accommodates 13 passengers plus a flight attendant.
> 
> Installation of the SAR equipment set, consisting of the LPG-150 winch and the TSL-1600 searchlight, further expands the scope of possible applications of the rotorcraft, according to Russian Helicopters. It is also equipped with an early ground proximity warning system, enhancing flight safety.
> 
> The delivery comes as Russian Helicopters, part of state-owned corporation Rostec, claims increasing sales of its range of aircraft. "The number of civil aviation air operators, particularly from South Asia, who place orders with us is growing", - comments Alexander Shcherbinin, deputy CEO for marketing and business development of Russian Helicopters.


Excellent news!! 

How many are we getting? Any idea sir?

You mentioned 4 in a previous post, was that for Mi17 or AW139?
I am specifically interested in knowing about Mi17E!! Excellent.

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## nomi007



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## Super Falcon

Why we are not buying heavy transportation helos like CHINKOOK


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## Blue Marlin

Arsalan said:


> Hmmm, Your point regarding Z10 do make a lot of sense. PA getting Z10 will be a win for both. I was however talking about Rooivalk as an addition to Z10. Then again, perhaps it was a bit too ambitious of me, operating three different gunships (Zulu, Z10 and Rooivalk) along with the Mi35 do not make much sense.
> 
> Let’s see what the Chinese can come up with. The two examples the send here were labeled as a gift but were in fact for evaluation purpose and were put through their paces in WoT. There were a few glitches reported and it is likely that the birds are back in China for modification and upgrades. I hope the Chinese can come up with some solution and then we can induct these in numbers. However I do not really like the idea of AW139 too much either as they are quite expensive. IF we are looking at numbers around 200 (and it can easily go up there if they come for all arms of military and fill in quite a few roles like medium lift, ambulance, SAR, VVIP transport etc) perhaps then it will make some sense. How about Mi17 however? They are reliable and robust, we are good with them and have decent support infrastructure, plus the Chinese are making them now so you know . . . . .
> MI17 have slightly better payload but lesser range (which might not be that important in case of Pakistan).


combining the rooivalk with the z10 and the zulus is a logistical and financial nightmare. id expect the cash strapped pakistan to overlook the rooivalk but keep tabs on it. the z10 were gifts and were for pakistan to try out, once they did they evaluated and used it in combat and came up with recommendations/improvements 1 z10 was sent back to china. which other country would give a "free" chopper to pakistan ? very clever move by the chinese

as for the aw-139. if you dont like it then get the harbin z-15 which is a licenced h175 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_Helicopters_H175





its similar in size to the aw-139 and would be certainly cheaper



Super Falcon said:


> Why we are not buying heavy transportation helos like CHINKOOK


have you got $40+ million in a swiss bank account ?
if so, great fork it up
if not, be quiet

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## syed_yusuf

Blue Marlin said:


> indeed it can open an industry but you must ask yourself this. how many will pakistan buy? and how many can it realistically sell? the answer to the first question is about 90 max. as for the second part most of the gcc are going for ah-64e's and upgrades from the 64d to the 64e. who's left? no one. can pakistan afford to have a helicopter industry (financially) possibly?
> 
> china can help pakistan with choppers, money and more importantly a huge degree of tot. can south africa help pakistan to the degree of the chinese? no
> 
> the way i see it is:
> 
> 15 to 36 ah1-z (depending on how the new zulu's perform)
> 90 z10 (back bone)
> ~fennecs scounting/light attack
> 20 mil-35 border attack/assault



Where does it leave T-129?


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## SQ8

The chopper mix for now is Mi-17 backbone /workhorse
Puma for siachen assisted by aw-139
Aw-139 for qrf at kashmir front and sar

Ah-1z - 15(10 option) for high end attack

Mi-35 coin

The Z-10 came for eval, tested and returned after eval lease is done.

So far there is no money allocated this budget for attack helis. Certain quarters cite a top level brass member linked with leonardo who forced a transport deal anf siphoned off millions for himself--- unconfirmed

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 392949
> View attachment 392949


until they never land in Pakistan they are not ours


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## Windjammer

PAA Helicopters helping dowse a fire in Karachi.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/856867997515952129


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> The chopper mix for now is Mi-17 backbone /workhorse
> Puma for siachen assisted by aw-139
> Aw-139 for qrf at kashmir front and sar
> 
> Ah-1z - 15(10 option) for high end attack
> 
> Mi-35 coin
> 
> The Z-10 came for eval, tested and returned after eval lease is done.
> 
> So far there is no money allocated this budget for attack helis. Certain quarters cite a top level brass member linked with leonardo who forced a transport deal anf siphoned off millions for himself--- unconfirmed


IMO no one should have expected two simultaneous attack helicopter programs. If there's an intent for another platform, it'd be slotted for after the AH-1Z are fully absorbed.

Regarding the AW139. The S-70 Black Hawk was the main competitor.

The S-70 had considerably more scale and adoption in govt and civilian circles, used the same engine cores (GE T700) as the AH-1Z, had a distributed supply network (with manufacturers in the US, Poland and soon Turkey) and was a tried and tested machine.

I was told that a disproportionate amount of weighting was given to high altitude usage. It's become common in third world countries to release RFPs that spell out one platform (see the Bangladesh Navy ASW helicopter tender, it pretty much only qualifies the AW159).


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO no one should have expected two simultaneous attack helicopter programs. If there's an intent for another platform, it'd be slotted for after the AH-1Z are fully absorbed.
> 
> Regarding the AW139. The S-70 Black Hawk was the main competitor.
> 
> The S-70 had considerably more scale and adoption in govt and civilian circles, used the same engine cores (GE T700) as the AH-1Z, had a distributed supply network (with manufacturers in the US, Poland and soon Turkey) and was a tried and tested machine.
> 
> I was told that it a disproportionate amount of weighting was given to high-altitude operations. It's become common in third world countries to release RFPs that literally spell out one platform (see the Bangladesh Navy ASW helicopter tender, it pretty much only qualifies the AW159).


The Aw-139 is a great machine, let there be no doubt in that. Ive traveled in it during the earthquake and it outpaced all other helicopers. It has an excellent crew workload reduction and is very reliable- however, the rumors surrounding the deal are not good.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> The Aw-139 is a great machine, let there be no doubt in that. Ive traveled in it during the earthquake and it outpaced all other helicopers. It has an excellent crew workload reduction and is very reliable- however, the rumors surrounding the deal are not good.


Leonardo didn't specify the version PAA is buying, is it the militarized AW139M?


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Leonardo didn't specify the version PAA is buying, is it the militarized AW139M?


Its a semi military variant- reasons given for the "lite" version state Pakistan cannot afford any better but something seems off


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## Imran Khan

Topol said:


> Most likely because the Indian Air Force has already placed orders for 24 Chinook helicopters.


you indians see everything in indian sight without using logic 

CH-47A first flight was 21 September 1961 indian order placed at Sep 22, 2015.

so pakistanis waited 54 years, 1 day for indians to purchase it then we have excuse of not buying it ? india se bahir bhi dunya hai kabhi soccho

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## JK!

Advantage the AW139 gives in terms of logistics is it has engine commonality with the Cessna MEDEVAC aircraft recently inducted. Also if Pakistan looked at the Turkish Hurkus aircraft as a lead in trainer/COIN aircraft it also has same engine.

As of heavy lift Helos there was that rumour about some old Italian CH47C Chinooks but that fell through clearly. The Italians did back in the day export them to countries like Libya. Leonardo have a new line open for the newer CH47F but not sure whether they have an export licence as before. The type did impress Pakistan during its use in the relief operations after the 2005 earthquake.

Better option would be to exercise some patience and wait for outcome of the joint Russian-Chinese heavy lift helicopter project. Bigger and badder than the Mi26.

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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> Hmmm, Your point regarding Z10 do make a lot of sense. PA getting Z10 will be a win for both. I was however talking about Rooivalk as an addition to Z10. Then again, perhaps it was a bit too ambitious of me, operating three different gunships (Zulu, Z10 and Rooivalk) along with the Mi35 do not make much sense.
> 
> Let’s see what the Chinese can come up with. The two examples the send here were labeled as a gift but were in fact for evaluation purpose and were put through their paces in WoT. There were a few glitches reported and it is likely that the birds are back in China for modification and upgrades. I hope the Chinese can come up with some solution and then we can induct these in numbers. However I do not really like the idea of AW139 too much either as they are quite expensive. IF we are looking at numbers around 200 (and it can easily go up there if they come for all arms of military and fill in quite a few roles like medium lift, ambulance, SAR, VVIP transport etc) perhaps then it will make some sense. How about Mi17 however? They are reliable and robust, we are good with them and have decent support infrastructure, plus the Chinese are making them now so you know . . . . .
> MI17 have slightly better payload but lesser range (which might not be that important in case of Pakistan).
> 
> 
> Excellent news!!
> 
> How many are we getting? Any idea sir?
> 
> You mentioned 4 in a previous post, was that for Mi17 or AW139?
> I am specifically interested in knowing about Mi17E!! Excellent.


4 was for AW139, as far as MI17 is concerned, historically we have purchased in lots of 10.

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## Readerdefence

May be Pakistan is trying to get something more useful from Italy 
Hence buying these choppers


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## Blue Marlin

syed_yusuf said:


> Where does it leave T-129?


no where


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## Arsalan

syed_yusuf said:


> Where does it leave T-129?


In Turkey!  



Blue Marlin said:


> no where

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## jhungary

ziaulislam said:


> There is no where documented that its coming as FMF. Can you share the link/source for it. As far as general news reports it seems we are paying every cent



It's thru FMF

Here are the news

https://www.dawn.com/news/1250108

WASHINGTON: The United States (US) Navy awarded a $170 million contract for the manufacture of nine AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters to Bell Helicopter, the US Department of Defense said in a statement on Monday.

The combat helicopters will be manufactured and delivered to Pakistan under the Foreign Military Sales Program, the statement said.

The Bell AH-1Z Viper is a twin-engine combat chopper based on the previous SuperCobra model developed for the US Marine Corps, Sputnik reported. It has a top speed of 420 kilometres per hour and a range of 610km.

The contract awarded "for the manufacture and delivery of nine AH-1Z aircraft and nine auxiliary fuel kits for the government of Pakistan" is "expected to be completed in September 2018".

Advertisement
"*Foreign military sales funds in the amount of $170,173,188 will be obligated at time of award*," the Defense Department statement says, adding that the Naval Air Systems Command is contracting the activity for the Pakistani government.

Last April, the US State Department approved the Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for the AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $952 million.

_Read more: US approves billion-dollar arms sale to Pakistan_

Earlier this year, the US approved a $700m sale of eight F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, to which India strongly objected. The sale was made in order to improve Pakistan’s precision strike capability, the US said.

In a document released in February, the US administration told US lawmakers that its Foreign Military Funding (FMF) to Pakistan would focus on seven priority areas "identified and agreed to with the government of Pakistan".

These include "precision strike; air mobility and combat search and rescue; counter-improvised explosive device and survivability; battlefield communications; night operations; border security; and maritime security/counter-narcotics in support of counter-terrorism aims".

The document, sent to Congress with the US administration’s budget proposals for 2017, identifies these areas as essential to enhancing Pakistan’s counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism capabilities.

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## fatman17

jhungary said:


> It's thru FMF
> 
> Here are the news
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1250108
> 
> WASHINGTON: The United States (US) Navy awarded a $170 million contract for the manufacture of nine AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters to Bell Helicopter, the US Department of Defense said in a statement on Monday.
> 
> The combat helicopters will be manufactured and delivered to Pakistan under the Foreign Military Sales Program, the statement said.
> 
> The Bell AH-1Z Viper is a twin-engine combat chopper based on the previous SuperCobra model developed for the US Marine Corps, Sputnik reported. It has a top speed of 420 kilometres per hour and a range of 610km.
> 
> The contract awarded "for the manufacture and delivery of nine AH-1Z aircraft and nine auxiliary fuel kits for the government of Pakistan" is "expected to be completed in September 2018".
> 
> Advertisement
> "*Foreign military sales funds in the amount of $170,173,188 will be obligated at time of award*," the Defense Department statement says, adding that the Naval Air Systems Command is contracting the activity for the Pakistani government.
> 
> Last April, the US State Department approved the Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for the AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $952 million.
> 
> _Read more: US approves billion-dollar arms sale to Pakistan_
> 
> Earlier this year, the US approved a $700m sale of eight F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, to which India strongly objected. The sale was made in order to improve Pakistan’s precision strike capability, the US said.
> 
> In a document released in February, the US administration told US lawmakers that its Foreign Military Funding (FMF) to Pakistan would focus on seven priority areas "identified and agreed to with the government of Pakistan".
> 
> These include "precision strike; air mobility and combat search and rescue; counter-improvised explosive device and survivability; battlefield communications; night operations; border security; and maritime security/counter-narcotics in support of counter-terrorism aims".
> 
> The document, sent to Congress with the US administration’s budget proposals for 2017, identifies these areas as essential to enhancing Pakistan’s counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism capabilities.


I beg to disagree.


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## jhungary

fatman17 said:


> I beg to disagree.



Well, it said so on the US department of defence website, if you disagree, maybe you should contact US DoD and ask to pay in full instead of using Foreign Military Sales Fund.

https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract-View/Article/713026/

*CONTRACTS*


*NAVY*


Bell Helicopter Textron Inc., Fort Worth, Texas, is being awarded $170,173,188 for modification P00047 to a previously awarded firm-fixed-price contract (N00019-13-C-0023) for the* manufacture and delivery of nine AH-1Z aircraft, and nine auxiliary fuel kits for the government of Pakistan* under the Foreign Military Sales program. Work will be performed in Fort Worth, Texas (60 percent); and Amarillo, Texas (40 percent), and is expected to be completed in September 2018. *Foreign military sales funds in the amount of $170,173,188 will be obligated at time of award, none of which will expire at the end of the current fiscal year.* The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Maryland, is the contracting activity.


BAE Systems Information and Electronic Systems Integration Inc., Nashua, New Hampshire, is being awarded a $39,999,960 firm-fixed-price contract for the new manufacture of MJU-68/B flares for the PMA272 Air Expendable Countermeasures program. This effort combines purchases for the government of Israel under the Foreign Military Sales program. Work will be performed in Toon, Tennessee, and is expected to be completed by August 2018. Fiscal 2014 and fiscal 2015 procurement of ammunition (Navy and Marine Corp) funds in the amount of $10,463,323; fiscal 2014 and fiscal 2015 aircraft and ammunition (Air Force) funds in the amount of $21,639,978; and foreign military sales funds in the amount of $7,896,659 will be obligated at the time of award and funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This sole-source requirement received under authority 10 U.S. Code 2304 (c)(1). Naval Supply Systems Command Weapon Systems Support, Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, is the contracting activity (N00104-16-C-K037).


Raytheon Integrated Defense Systems, Tewksbury, Massachusetts, is being awarded a $17,653,917 cost-plus-fixed-fee contract for science and technology research concerning the Network Cooperative Radar Program. The focus of this effort is to perform design and development for the Network Cooperative Radar Program. This contract contains an option, which if exercised, will bring the contract value to $18,749,375. Work will be performed in Tewksbury, Massachusetts, and is expected to be completed April 2017. If the option is exercised, work will continue through July 9, 2018. Fiscal 2015 research, development, test and evaluation (Navy) funds in the amount of $3,010,838 will be obligated at the time of award, and will expire at end if current fiscal year. This contract was competitively procured under Office of Naval Research Broad Agency Announcement 15-001. Five full proposals were received for the solicitation. The Office of Naval Research, Arlington, Virginia, is the contracting activity (N00014-16-C-2007).


Mercury Defense Systems,* Cypress, California, is being awarded $15,430,634 for firm-fixed-price delivery order 0005 against previously issued basic ordering agreement N68335-12-G-0059 for work associated with a Phase III Small Business Innovation Research effort under Topic N06-036, entitled “Advanced Techniques for Digital Radio Frequency Memories (DRFM).” This order includes production of 28 Type II advanced DRFM units. Work will be performed in Cypress, California, and is expected to be completed in January 2018. Fiscal 2015 aircraft procurement (Air Force); and fiscal 2015 missile procurement (Air Force) funds in the amount of $15,430,634 will be obligated at time of award, none of which will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. The Naval Air Warfare Center Aircraft Division, Lakehurst, New Jersey, is the contracting activity.


Bell-Boeing Joint Project Office, Amarillo, Texas, is being awarded $14,485,959 for cost-plus- fixed-fee modification to delivery order 0096 previously issued against basic ordering agreement N00019-12-G-0006 in support of the V-22 aircraft. This modification provides for the procurement of nonrecurring engineering in support of the CV-22 Integrated Aircraft Survivability Equipment (IASE) joint urgent operational need effort as well as 10 CV-22 IASE A-kits. Work will be performed at Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (72 percent); Mesa, Arizona (11 percent); St. Louis, Missouri (7 percent); Fort Worth, Texas (3 percent); and various locations throughout the U.S. (7 percent), and is expected to be completed in March 2017. Fiscal 2015 aircraft procurement (Air Force); and fiscal 2015 research, development, test and evaluation (Air Force) funds in the amount of $6,999,999 will be obligated at time of award; $5,119,766 of which will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Maryland, is the contracting activity.


Bell Helicopter Textron Inc., Fort Worth, Texas, is being issued $7,466,150 for delivery order 0003 against previously awarded basic ordering agreement N00019-16-G-0012 for the procurement and installation of eight AN/APR-39D(V)2 radar system integration kits (A-kits) into Lot 13 AH-1Z and UH-1Y aircraft. Work will be performed in Fort Worth, Texas, and is expected to be completed in December 2018. Fiscal 2016 aircraft procurement (Navy) funds in the amount of $7,466,150 will be obligated at time of award, none of which will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Maryland, is the contracting activity.



*ARMY*



Textron Systems Marine & Land Systems, New Orleans, Louisiana, was awarded a $65,948,115 firm-fixed-price, foreign military sales contract (Iraq, Columbia) for 54 each Commando Select armored personnel carriers (APCs) with 40/50 turret; four each Commando Select APCs with 40/50 turret and command and control (C2) variant; and two each Commando Select APCs. One bid was solicited with one received. Work will be performed in Slidell, Louisiana, with an estimated completion date of April 4, 2016. Other procurement funds in the amount of $65,948,115 were obligated at the time of the award. Army Contracting Command, Warren, Michigan, is the contracting activity (W56HZV-16-C-0079).



Medico Industries Inc., Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania, was awarded a $17,888,945 modification (P00014) to contract W15QKN-13-C-0050 for 120mm high-explosive shells; 120mm high-explosive and full-range practice charges; and smoke adapter fuses. Work will be performed in Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania, with an estimated completion date of Dec. 31, 2017. Fiscal 2015 and 2016 other procurement funds in the amount of $17,888,945 were obligated at the time of the award. Army Contracting Command, Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey, is the contracting activity.



*AIR FORCE*



SRA International Inc., Fairfax, Virginia, has been awarded a $7,963,464 modification (P00002) to previously awarded contract FA7037-16-F-8001. Contractor will provide technical project management, integration, planning and programming; network monitoring, configuration management, performance management, mission management, communications security management, systems administration and communications engineering. Work will be performed at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia, and is expected to be complete by April 30, 2017. Fiscal 2016 overseas contingency operations funds in the amount of $4,592,918 are being obligated at the time of award. The 25th Air Force Contracting Office, Lackland Air Force Base, Texas, is the contracting activity.



*DEFENSE ADVANCED RESEARCH PROJECTS AGENCY*



International Business Machines Corp. (IBM), Yorktown Heights, New York, has been issued a ceiling decrease modification in the amount of $7,397,671 (P00017) to previously awarded HR0011-12-C-0015, for research under the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) I20 Broad Operational Language Translation (BOLT) program. The modification decreases the total cumulative face value of the contract from $32,761,127 to $25,363,456. Work will be performed in Yorktown Heights, New York (57 percent); Aachen, Germany (9 percent); College Park, Maryland (9 percent); Cambridge, United Kingdom (8 percent); Stanford, California (8 percent); Baltimore, Maryland (4 percent); Le Mans, France (4 percent); and Cambridge, Massachusetts (1 percent), with an expected completion date of September 2016. DARPA, Arlington, Virginia, is the contracting activity.


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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> I beg to disagree.





jhungary said:


> It's thru FMF
> 
> Here are the news
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1250108
> 
> WASHINGTON: The United States (US) Navy awarded a $170 million contract for the manufacture of nine AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters to Bell Helicopter, the US Department of Defense said in a statement on Monday.
> 
> The combat helicopters will be manufactured and delivered to Pakistan under the Foreign Military Sales Program, the statement said.
> 
> ...................


we dont need to disagree, his source itself say FMS(Foreign Military Sales Program) in the 4-5 line.
so either he cant read or posted the wrong source


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## jhungary

ziaulislam said:


> we dont need to disagree, his source itself say FMS(Foreign Military Sales Program) in the 4-5 line.
> so either he cant read or posted the wrong source



Foreign Military fund is also used to pay thru both Foreign Military Sales program (FMS) and Direct Commercial Sale.

https://www.dsca.mil/programs/foreign-military-sales-fms

Purpose:

The Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program is a form of security assistance authorized by the Arms Export Control Act (AECA), as amended [22 U.S.C. 2751, et. seq.] and a fundamental tool of U.S. foreign policy.

Under Section 3, of the AECA, the U.S. may sell defense articles and services to foreign countries and international organizations when the President formally finds that to do so will strengthen the security of the U.S. and promote world peace.

Under FMS, the U.S. Government and a foreign government enter into a government-to-government agreement called a Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LOA).

*Who:*
Secretary of State determines which countries will have programs. Secretary of Defense executes the program.

*Funding:*
*May be funded by country national funds or U.S. Government funds.

https://www.dsca.mil/programs/foreign-military-financing-fmf*

Purpose:
The Arms Export Control Act (AECA), as amended [22 U.S.C. 2751, et. seq.], authorizes the President to finance procurement of defense articles and services for foreign countries and international organizations.

FMF enables eligible partner nations to purchase U.S. defense articles, services, and training through *either FMS* or, for a limited number of countries, *through the foreign military financing of direct commercial contracts (FMF/DCC) program* (Also DCC Guidelines).

Who:
Secretary of State determines which countries will have programs. Secretary of Defense executes the program.

Funding:
FMF is a source of financing and may be provided to a partner nation on either a grant (non-repayable) or direct loan basis.

In this case, as per the contact, it was paid under United States Foreign Military Sale Financing in FY18

Again, I do not oppose you or anyone representing Pakistani Government to call up DoD and advise them NOT TO PAY THIS THRU FOREIGN MILITARY SALES FUND*.*


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## fatman17

If these funds are FMF as claimed, Pakistan will never get delivery of these helos, just like the F16 fiasco. Congress is in no mood to subsidise arms sales to Pakistan anymore.


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## jhungary

fatman17 said:


> If these funds are FMF as claimed, Pakistan will never get delivery of these helos, just like the F16 fiasco. Congress is in no mood to subsidise arms sales to Pakistan anymore.



not sure, maybe, maybe not. But regardless, those are FMF funded FMS purchase, well, at least for this contract.


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## HRK

jhungary said:


> not sure, maybe, maybe not. But regardless, those are FMF funded FMS purchase, well, at least for this contract.



1- Sir I am not aware of any *congress approval* for FMF for these AH-1Z & I am sure you know it very well that without Congress approval US government is not in position to conclude this deal .... 
2- If I am not wrong under US law any military funding greater than or equivalent to 100 million is required to be notified to congress & the amount quoted in the news is $ 170 million which mean this facility can not be extended without CONGRESS APPROVAL & as said earlier there is no such approval (at least in 
3- As far as source is concern I have not seen this thing reported by any other media outlet neither in Pakistan nor in USA, which mean it might be a misunderstanding of the news reporter 
4- Even if we accept the quoted amount as *FMF* then the question arise
- Why Pakistan will opt for FMF which is only ~*18% *[(170/952) x 100=17.8] of the total cost of the approved sales of $ 952 million ... ??
- then more surprisingly as of now Pakistan have order only *12 AH-1Z *while the approval is for 15 Gunship Helicopter this mean status of *20% of the approved fleet is still in ambiguity* .... I find no reason to order less number of AH-1z then numbers specially IF THEY HAVE $ 170 FMF facility available ...
5- Now the part which your have highlighted in your quote 


> *Foreign military sales funds in the amount of $170,173,188 will be obligated at time of award,*


This part is only indicating the advance payment/down payment which is required to be paid at the time of placement of orders its a general practice & this 170 is ~30% of total price of $ 571.2 million for 9 AH-1z ordered


> *none of which will expire at the end of the current fiscal year.*


This part is only indicating that non of the ordered AH-1z would be received in the financial year therefore the advance amount would not be realized during the same fiscal year 

I don't know how you are getting the expression that this sentence in indicating about the FOREIGN MILITARY FINANCING FACILITY extended for Pakistan for this deal .... plz keep in mind its a government to government deal therefore US government is placing orders & paying finance to the manufacturer on behalf of Pakistani Government which is not dealing with the manufacturer DIRECTLY


----------



## jhungary

HRK said:


> 1- Sir I am not aware of any *congress approval* for FMF for these AH-1Z & I am sure you know it very well that without Congress approval US government is not in position to conclude this deal ....



The contract said it will not expire by this fiscal year, meaning, the funding approval may not be allocated this year, that mean the funding option is open, they can be approving it at the remaining of FY17 or even FY18.



> 2- If I am not wrong under US law any military funding greater than or equivalent to 100 million is required to be notified to congress & the amount quoted in the news is $ 170 million which mean this facility can not be extended without CONGRESS APPROVAL & as said earlier there is no such approval (at least in



Read the above response


> 3- As far as source is concern I have not seen this thing reported by any other media outlet neither in Pakistan nor in USA, which mean it might be a misunderstanding of the news reporter



The contract was report in verbatim at US Department of Defence Website, not just at dawn news

https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract-View/Article/713026/



> 4- Even if we accept the quoted amount as *FMF* then the question arise
> - Why Pakistan will opt for FMF which is only ~*18% *[(170/952) x 100=17.8] of the total cost of the approved sales of $ 952 million ... ??
> - then more surprisingly as of now Pakistan have order only *12 AH-1Z *while the approval is for 15 Gunship Helicopter this mean status of *20% of the approved fleet is still in ambiguity* .... I find no reason to order less number of AH-1z then numbers specially IF THEY HAVE $ 170 FMF facility available ...



No idea, that's up to your own government, they may opt for partial financial assistance from FMSF where they will paid the remaining balance on their national fund, or they may opt for FMSF as a loan, which they eventually would want to pay back all the funding by themselves, for this part, you will need to make inquiry within your own government



> 5- Now the part which your have highlighted in your quote
> 
> This part is only indicating the advance payment/down payment which is required to be paid at the time of placement of orders its a general practice & this 170 is ~30% of total price of $ 571.2 million for 9 AH-1z ordered



This part indicate the advance payment is coming out of FMSF, if they are other national funding option, they will list other option instead of FMSF. For example. For the Raytheon Integrated Defence System, the US Navy is paying out from their own pocket, it listed research, development, test and evaluation (Navy) funds as the source.



> This part is only indicating that non of the ordered AH-1z would be received in the financial year therefore the advance amount would not be realized during the same fiscal year
> 
> I don't know how you are getting the expression that this sentence in indicating about the FOREIGN MILITARY FINANCING FACILITY extended for Pakistan for this deal .... plz keep in mind its a government to government deal therefore US government is placing orders & paying finance to the manufacturer on behalf of Pakistani Government which is not dealing with the manufacturer DIRECTLY


[/quote]

You need to understand this is a contract, the accomplishment of a contract is to set thing in motion, funding allocation is done after the contract being awarded. And work will start once funding is awarded.

This deal is a FMS deal, and as per the US Department of Defence Website, the funding is coming out of the Foreign Military Sale Finance, as I said, I don't know if Pakistani government were intended to extend this as a grant or a simple loan. As this is Pakistani government decision. But as such, this is listed in the DoD contract as a FMF sales.

FMF sales also included in FMS to Pakistan, as explained in Previous post, it is not of FMF/DCC program.


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## HRK

jhungary said:


> This deal is a FMS deal, and as per the US Department of Defence Website, the funding is coming out of the Foreign Military Sale Finance,



*But is it possible without the approval of Congress ...??? *

$ 170 million is not a small amount which OBAMA Administration could have approved for Pakistan without notifying Congress ... This is what I am not to able understand


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## jhungary

HRK said:


> *But is it possible without the approval of Congress ...??? *
> 
> $ 170 million is not a small amount which OBAMA Administration could have approved for Pakistan without notifying Congress ... This is what I am not to able understand



lol, because the contract still have not been fulfil, it is just a publicize of the contract that are ready to put into the pipeline, congress require all armament contract to be published, that is just that.

The funding have not yet been approve, the contract have not yet start (Bell have not yet start making the AH-1Z for Pakistan) that is just a notice of the contract approval. The contract have an open ended deadline, and indicated it may not be confirm this year.


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## fatman17

Congress can always put a "hold" on prior approvals, whether they are FMS or FMF. many previous examples exist not just for Pakistan but other countries.


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## blinder

fatman17 said:


> Congress can always put a "hold" on prior approvals, whether they are FMS or FMF. many previous examples exist not just for Pakistan but other countries.


Indeed, or even hold back hardware that is already paid for... all depending on the political climate in the USA. And that is rather unpredictable with the current administration in office... But the first three should already be in early stage of manufacturing by now.


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## fatman17

blinder said:


> Indeed, or even hold back hardware that is already paid for... all depending on the political climate in the USA. And that is rather unpredictable with the current administration in office... But the first three should already be in early stage of manufacturing by now.


First 3 are ready for delivery already.

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## blinder

fatman17 said:


> First 3 are ready for delivery already.


Any idea about the colour scheme they will get?


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## fatman17

blinder said:


> Any idea about the colour scheme they will get?


Military Green


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## blinder

Brand new H125M (the current commercial name) seen during a recent test flight at Airbus Helicopters in Marseille.
Credit to Spotair.

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## khanasifm

Looks like army alloute iii will be replaced by this heli going forward


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Looks like army alloute iii will be replaced by this heli going forward


Yep both versions, armed and liaison


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## Zarvan

#Russia Sending Four Mi-35 Helicopters To Pakistan In Few Weeks.


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> #Russia Sending Four Mi-35 Helicopters To Pakistan In Few Weeks.


All of them together ? It'll probably be one or two only, source ?


----------



## Zarvan

Army research said:


> All of them together ? It'll probably be one or two only, source ?


A good friend said that and we are buying 4 so most probably we are going to get all 4 together


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## Talon

Zarvan said:


> #Russia Sending Four Mi-35 Helicopters To Pakistan In Few Weeks.


any info about color scheme?


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## Zarvan

Hodor said:


> any info about color scheme?


No idea about that we would see it when it would arrive


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> A good friend said that and we are buying 4 so most probably we are going to get all 4 together


Every knows we're getting four, if your getting four doesn't mean all together , they come in batches sir je!!! Who's the good friend who said they're coming and in a few months or two three weeks ?

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## Army research

Reddawn said:


> A good friend said that Suparco have reverse engineered the Death Star and we can expect to see it in a few weeks!!!


With tot and su 35 and SCAR sabres ofc

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Every knows we're getting four, if your getting four doesn't mean all together , they come in batches sir je!!! Who's the good friend who said they're coming and in a few months or two three weeks ?


I don't know but it would be here in few weeks and also few months ago I posted picture of Pakistani pilots getting trained in Russia for MI-35

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## fatman17

Z19E makes maiden flight. 
Advanced light attack helicopter

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Export version of China's Z-19 attack helo makes maiden flight

Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

19 May 2017

The Z-19E, the export version of the China's Z-19 attack helicopter, made its maiden flight on 18 May. Source: Via news.cn

The export version of China's Harbin Aviation Industries (Group) Company (HAIG) Z-19 Black Whirlwind armed reconnaissance/attack helicopter has made its maiden flight.

Called the Z-19E, the new variant took to the skies on 18 May over the city of Harbin in China's northeastern province of Heilongjiang.

"The Z-19E carried out hovering manoeuvres, close ground-effect manoeuvring, and low passes above the airport to demonstrate its performance," reported the Xinhua news agency.

The media outlet quoted the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), HAIG's parent company, as saying that the model was developed to "meet the requirements of the international military trade market".

The narrow-body, tandem-seat helicopter is China's first export-oriented attack helicopter.

"It is able to be deployed for battlefield support and a variety of other missions in a complicated battlefield environment during day and night," Li Shengwei, deputy chief designer at HAIG, was quoted as saying.

The helicopter has a cabin layout that provides both aircrew with a good degree of visibility, while "its manoeuvrability and survival possibilities on the battlefield are great improvements", said Li.

With a maximum take-off weight of 4,250 kg, the Z-19E is a light armed helicopter providing advantages in cruising speed, climb rate, and usable ceiling, according to its developer.

The Z-19E is mainly intended to attack armoured vehicles and other ground targets, reported Xinhua.

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Pakistan looks at COIN role for Super Mushshak aircraft

Alan Warnes, Kamra - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

19 May 2017

The state-owned Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), in Kamra, northern Pakistan, is looking at counter-insurgency (COIN) roles for its Super Mushshak training aircraft.

The move comes after the company successfully integrated a new glass cockpit into the aircraft and sold units of the basic trainer to Nigeria (10 units), Qatar (8), and Turkey (52) over the past year.

PAC is fitting weapons onto its Super Mushshaks. This aircraft is armed with two Chinese FT-10s PGBs in late April. (Alan Warnes)

The company is now adding intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities by fitting the aircraft with electro-optic/infrared (EO/IR) sensor turrets, with one Super Mushshak already equipped with an L3 Wescam MX-10.

PAC chairman Air Marshal Arshad Malik told Jane's, "We have had several customers enquiring about integrating an ISR system; so we are looking at options.

"While sitting in the cockpit's right seat, the turret operator would control the camera and watch the video feed on the glass screen. At the same time the imagery could be downlinked to the battle commander on the ground. It's a very simple system," the air marshal added.

The second initiative is to arm the Super Mushshak. After initial aerodynamic and structural analysis, one Chinese-built 25 kg FT-10 precision-guided bomb (PGB) was mounted under each wing of one of the aircraft on 29 April.

Complete integration of the weapons is expected to take another three to four months, which will also cover the design and manufacture of the pylons, quality checks, flight test, and eventually a test drop.

The PAC chairman pointed out that to ease the pilot's workload, "PAC is in the process of incorporating servos for the autopilot, too". The newly designed system would assist the pilot in controlling the aircraft should there be any aerodynamic instability after dropping one or both bombs.

An expert at the PAC Kamra's design, technology, and integration department admitted that it would take some time to verify and physically validate the findings of aerodynamic analysis.

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## Rocky rock

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Pakistan looks at COIN role for Super Mushshak aircraft
> 
> Alan Warnes, Kamra - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 19 May 2017
> 
> The state-owned Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), in Kamra, northern Pakistan, is looking at counter-insurgency (COIN) roles for its Super Mushshak training aircraft.
> 
> The move comes after the company successfully integrated a new glass cockpit into the aircraft and sold units of the basic trainer to Nigeria (10 units), Qatar (8), and Turkey (52) over the past year.
> 
> PAC is fitting weapons onto its Super Mushshaks. This aircraft is armed with two Chinese FT-10s PGBs in late April. (Alan Warnes)
> 
> The company is now adding intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities by fitting the aircraft with electro-optic/infrared (EO/IR) sensor turrets, with one Super Mushshak already equipped with an L3 Wescam MX-10.
> 
> PAC chairman Air Marshal Arshad Malik told Jane's, "We have had several customers enquiring about integrating an ISR system; so we are looking at options.
> 
> "While sitting in the cockpit's right seat, the turret operator would control the camera and watch the video feed on the glass screen. At the same time the imagery could be downlinked to the battle commander on the ground. It's a very simple system," the air marshal added.
> 
> The second initiative is to arm the Super Mushshak. After initial aerodynamic and structural analysis, one Chinese-built 25 kg FT-10 precision-guided bomb (PGB) was mounted under each wing of one of the aircraft on 29 April.
> 
> Complete integration of the weapons is expected to take another three to four months, which will also cover the design and manufacture of the pylons, quality checks, flight test, and eventually a test drop.
> 
> The PAC chairman pointed out that to ease the pilot's workload, "PAC is in the process of incorporating servos for the autopilot, too". The newly designed system would assist the pilot in controlling the aircraft should there be any aerodynamic instability after dropping one or both bombs.
> 
> An expert at the PAC Kamra's design, technology, and integration department admitted that it would take some time to verify and physically validate the findings of aerodynamic analysis.
> 
> View attachment 397989



i would love to see the "Autopilot" Version. 
secondly i have question here why we don't get any orders for K-8 while it's intermediate AC why just "Super Mushak" always?


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## Zarvan

Rocky rock said:


> i would love to see the "Autopilot" Version.
> secondly i have question here why we don't get any orders for K-8 while it's intermediate AC why just "Super Mushak" always?


Pakistan and China have together sold K-8 to several countries go check wikki K-8 is being used by several countries


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## Rocky rock

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan and China have together sold K-8 to several countries go check wikki K-8 is being used by several countries



Those were sold by China not by Pakistan. That's my point.

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## Dazzler

Rocky rock said:


> i would love to see the "Autopilot" Version.
> secondly i have question here why we don't get any orders for K-8 while it's intermediate AC why just "Super Mushak" always?



More than 400 k-8s have been sold to 9 airforces while more orders are expected..

*List of K-8 Overseas Customers
Country* *Number* *Comment*
Pakistan 51
27 *K-8P*s with glass cockpit were delivered by October 2010. Another 12 were delivered in September 2011.
Myanmar 12+60 60 *K-8W*s more were ordered in late 2009. The delivery of first 12 started in mid-2010.
Sri Lanka 6 3 lost in 2002 during guerrilla attack, 3 delivered in July 2005
Zambia 15 8 *K-8P*s were delivered in March 2012.
Namibia 4 
Egypt 120 locally assembled *K-8E*s, 40 were ordered in mid-2005
Zimbabwe 12 1 crashed in September 2008, another crashed in April 2015
Ghana 4 2 *K-8P*s delivered in March 2007, 2 more in March 2008
Sudan 22 First 6 *K-8S*s delivered in 2007, 5 in November 2014.
Venezuela 18+9 18 *K-8W*s were delivered by September 2010. One crashed in July 2010. Another in November 2012. 9 inducted in April 2016.
Bolivia 6 6 K-8VBs were ordered in January 2010, delivered in April 2011.
Tanzania 6? At least one was damaged during an aborted take-off on October 23, 2012.
Bangladesh 9 9 *K-8W*s were ordered in late 2013. 5 delivered by April 2014.


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## mingle

K 8 would be good option .A dedicated Sq would be good .


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## blinder

See the article I just posted in the K-8 thread


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## fatman17

Rocky rock said:


> i would love to see the "Autopilot" Version.
> secondly i have question here why we don't get any orders for K-8 while it's intermediate AC why just "Super Mushak" always?


China has selling rights to K8, while Pakistan gets 25% of the export earnings.

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> China has selling rights to K8, while Pakistan gets 25% of the export earnings.


are we still building our share of parts for those orders?


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## Inception-06

ziaulislam said:


> are we still building our share of parts for those orders?



noT REALLY !


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## ziaulislam

Ulla said:


> noT REALLY !


well than i doubt we are getting any profits from these orders.

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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> are we still building our share of parts for those orders?


Yes we are.


----------



## fatman17

The AVIC Harbin Z-19E attack helicopter has conducted its maiden flight . An export version of the Z-19 , testing on the E variant included hovering, ground-effect manouevring, and low passes. Designed for anti-tank and ground attack missions, the manufacturer stated that the helicopter is “able to be deployed for battlefield support and a variety of other missions in a complicated battlefield environment during both day and night.”


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## fatman17

Airforce Technology


Project





ROLELight attack helicopter

MANUFACTURER Harbin Aviation Industry

MAIDEN FLIGHT May 2017

PILOTS Two

MAIN ROTOR DIAMETER 12m

MAXIMUM TAKE-OFF WEIGHT4,250kg

ENDURANCE162 minutes

Z-19E attack helicopter’s maiden flight was conducted in May 2017.

The Z-19E light combat helicopter is developed by Harbin Aircraft Industry Group.

The Z-19E attack helicopter features a tandem cockpit.

Z-19E Light Attack Helicopter, China

The Z-19E light attack helicopter, an export variant of Z-19 Harbin armed and reconnaissance helicopter, performed its maiden flight in May.

The helicopter is manufactured by Harbin Aircraft Industry Group (HAIG), a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corporation of China, to provide fire support for the armed forces. It is designed to destroy ground-based targets, including armoured fighting vehicles, main battletanks, troops, and military installations. It can also engage enemy helicopters and low-flying targets under complex battlefield conditions.

In addition to attack missions, the export variant can perform other tasks such as anti-smuggling, anti-terrorism, counter-piracy, patrol, helicopter escort, and reconnaissance.

Z-19E attack helicopter design and features

The Z-19E attack helicopter features a narrow fuselage fitted with two stub wings. It has a four-blade main rotor with a diameter of 12m and a fenestron tail rotor with a diameter of 1.1m.

The total length of the helicopter with rotors is 13.72m and the total width without rotors is 3.96m. With 4,250kg of take-off weight, the helicopter can carry two operators, 820kg main fuel tank and 280kg auxiliary fuel tank, whereas the empty weight is 2,510kg.

The helicopter comes with a non-retractable undercarriage consisting of two main wheels under the fuselage and one tail wheel under the rudder.

Wingtip devices are installed on the stub wings to provide additional lift by reducing the drag.

Z-19E armament

The Z-19E light attack helicopter is equipped with four hardpoints, two under each wing, to carry air-to-ground and air-to-air missiles, and machine guns.

It can be armed with either four Blue Arrow 9 air-to-ground missiles mounted on a quad launcher or four 18-barrelled 57mm rocket launchers.

Various weapon combinations can be used based on the helicopter's mission, such as twin Blue Arrow 9 missile quadruple racks with either twin 18-barrelled 57mm rocket launchers, twin TY-90 air-to-air missiles and one auxiliary tank, or two 12.7mm machine guns mounted on a gun pod.

Featuring a semi-active laser guidance system, each Blue Arrow 9 missile can engage ground targets at a maximum distance of 6km. The 57mm rocket has a maximum range of 2km and is used to defeat surface targets.

The maximum range of the 12.7mm machine gun is 1.4km, while that of the TY-90 air-launched missile is 4km.

Cockpit and avionics of Z-19E export variant

The Z-19E combat helicopter accommodates a pilot and a gunner in tandem configuration, incorporating armour protection.

The glass cockpit is equipped with advanced integrated avionics, flight instrument displays, navigation systems, communications, and a digital automatic fire control system.

The cockpit is designed to offer panoramic wide-angle view through overhead and side windows. It also provides operators with night attack capability.

The helicopter is provided with electronic warfare suite, including radar warning receivers.

Additionally, the helicopter is fitted with a nose-mounted electro-optical turret that combines electro-optical / infrared sensors and a laser rangefinder to identify and track targets and to capture high-resolution imagery and video in both day and night conditions.

Protection features

An electronic self-protection system is installed in the helicopter to provide self defence against threats from guided missiles and airborne targets.

"In addition to attack missions, the export variant can perform other tasks such as anti-smuggling, anti-terrorism, counter-piracy, patrol, helicopter escort, and reconnaissance."

The onboard fuel tank is provided with self-sealing capability for protection against damages and blasts. The anti-crash body and bulletproof seats keep operators safe from firearms and guns.

The crash-worthy landing gear offers increased survivability for the occupants.

Engine and performance of Z-19E

The Z-19E export variant uses two WZ-8C turboshaft engines, which develop a maximum continuous power of 581kW and a take-off power of 626kW each.

The helicopter has a maximum cruising speed of 245km/h and a maximum range of 454km. The rate of climb is 8.3m/s and the hover ceiling is 3,600m.

The helicopter is capable of staying in the air for up to 162 minutes and can withstand temperatures between -40°C and 50°C.

The Global Military Rotorcraft Market 2011-2021


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## fatman17

Turkey’s armed forces has officially inducted Rokesan’sUMTAS infrared guided anti-tank missile into service. OMTAS is a semi-active laser-homing ATGM with a range of 500-8,000 m that Ankara will use as the main weapon of the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T129 attack helicopter, with Roketsan hoping to sell additional launchers and missiles to the Air Force and Navy as well. The system has also been tested on TAI’sHürkus-C close air support and counterinsurgency attack aircraft and is being marketed for export to several governments including Pakistan.

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## fatman17




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## -------

fatman17 said:


>

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Turkey’s armed forces has officially inducted Rokesan’sUMTAS infrared guided anti-tank missile into service. OMTAS is a semi-active laser-homing ATGM with a range of 500-8,000 m that Ankara will use as the main weapon of the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T129 attack helicopter, with Roketsan hoping to sell additional launchers and missiles to the Air Force and Navy as well. The system has also been tested on TAI’sHürkus-C close air support and counterinsurgency attack aircraft and is being marketed for export to several governments including Pakistan.


We do need some good fire and forget anti-tank missiles for our land forces as well, something that is light enough to be carried by a team of two or three and another system to arm some APC/IFVs and other armored vehicles into an anti-tank role. Can UMTAS be fit for that second role? If Pakistan do opts for T129 and the missile comes with it then we must look for a land launched version as well for our APC/IFVs!

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## Path-Finder

Combat-Master said:


>



Has OMTAS now entered service? Could really do with this system.


----------



## -------

Path-Finder said:


> Has OMTAS now entered service? Could really do with this system.



OMTAS has been tested and qualified to enter service by Land Forces. 1 launcher and 8 missiles have been inducted into service, serial production of the missile is yet to be announced but it should be soon as facilities are set up and staff are trained.

OMTAS shares warhead, seeker and flight motor of UMTAS. So as UMTAS evolves (seekers, propulsion and warheads) OMTAS will follow suite.






This missile is not like Javelin or Spike. This is a heavy anti-tank missile to replace BGM-71 TOW, so as per the weight, length and diameter of the missile it is designed to be used from a tripod or mounted onto vehicles.

A shoulder launched anti-tank missile is in development and is being co-developed by Roketsan and SAAB. -LINK: http://saabgroup.com/sv/Media/news-...SAN-collaborate-on-Anti-tank-Missile-Systems/

An extra feature that isn't mentioned for OMTAS is that the missile can have co-ordinate grid mapped onto it's flight computer by the launcher, missile will fly out to that specified co-ordinate from which the gunner can spot the target and lock-on. The only other missile currently stated to have this feature is SPIKE-LR II and that missile won't be qualified to enter service till next year - though SPIKE-LR II does have a superior seeker to OMTAS.
Cirit also has this feature, but in that case the third party has to laze target.

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## nomi007

Z-10 is not really bad
Very high definition images from inside the Z-10 cockpit plus the 23mm gun firing,


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> Z-10 is not really bad
> Very high definition images from inside the Z-10 cockpit plus the 23mm gun firing,


Issue is the power plant performance in hot and dusty conditions. Other than that no issue.

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/876711977674059776
Update on AH1Zs

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## Windjammer



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## fatman17



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## Ahmet Pasha

Gentlemen ATAK is on its way it seems.

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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Gentlemen ATAK is on its way it seems.


Yup it's and I hope there are lot more things coming from Turkey starting from MRAP and Optics

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## Ahmet Pasha

True turkey our kardisim is willing to offer us good highly potent western technology. NATO compliant which AMERICA is unwilling to do.

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## nomi007

K2 from Cockpit, at Concordia

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## nomi007

congo, africa

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## Zarvan

A friend on facebook group has asked members to check whether 6 Z-10 are present at Qassim Air Base or not


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Zarvan said:


> A friend on facebook group has asked members to check whether 6 Z-10 are present at Qassim Air Base or not



Ummm, there were 3 in Pakistan.

EVEEEERRRR


----------



## nomi007

The pilot's console of the* Mi* *35M* transport/attack helicopter.

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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> A friend on facebook group has asked members to check whether 6 Z-10 are present at Qassim Air Base or not



I think the 3 Z-10's which were in Pakistan was Returned back... Or Did i miss something??


----------



## khanasifm

nomi007 said:


> The pilot's console of the* Mi* *35M* transport/attack helicopter.
> View attachment 409105



Still too many manual switches and analog dials perhaps still as backup ?? But nothing compared to modern cockpits of Zulu, t129 and even z10


----------



## khanasifm

Combat-Master said:


> OMTAS has been tested and qualified to enter service by Land Forces. 1 launcher and 8 missiles have been inducted into service, serial production of the missile is yet to be announced but it should be soon as facilities are set up and staff are trained.
> 
> OMTAS shares warhead, seeker and flight motor of UMTAS. So as UMTAS evolves (seekers, propulsion and warheads) OMTAS will follow suite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This missile is not like Javelin or Spike. This is a heavy anti-tank missile to replace BGM-71 TOW, so as per the weight, length and diameter of the missile it is designed to be used from a tripod or mounted onto vehicles.
> 
> A shoulder launched anti-tank missile is in development and is being co-developed by Roketsan and SAAB. -LINK: http://saabgroup.com/sv/Media/news-...SAN-collaborate-on-Anti-tank-Missile-Systems/
> 
> An extra feature that isn't mentioned for OMTAS is that the missile can have co-ordinate grid mapped onto it's flight computer by the launcher, missile will fly out to that specified co-ordinate from which the gunner can spot the target and lock-on. The only other missile currently stated to have this feature is SPIKE-LR II and that missile won't be qualified to enter service till next year - though SPIKE-LR II does have a superior seeker to OMTAS.
> Cirit also has this feature, but in that case the third party has to laze target.



Looks like top attack vs traditional like tow2


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## MastanKhan

khanasifm said:


> Still too many manual switches and analog dials perhaps still as backup ?? But nothing compared to modern cockpits of Zulu, t129 and even z10



Hi,

When you make comments like that---it means that you are not well informed to the engineering mindset behind those analogue switches.

You are really are not familiar with the russian design engineering mindset and the needed use of technology according to the conditions in the battle field---.



Zarvan said:


> A friend on facebook group has asked members to check whether 6 Z-10 are present at Qassim Air Base or not



Is a 'friend' a foreign spy---.

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When you make comments like that---it means that you are not well informed to the engineering mindset behind those analogue switches.
> 
> You are really are not familiar with the russian design engineering mindset and the needed use of technology according to the conditions in the battle field---.
> 
> 
> 
> Is a 'friend' a foreign spy---.


No but quite close to Army guys in fact he was the one who gave me that picture of Rifle trials which I posted last year which told us that Rifles like MPT-76 and SIG have also joined trials.

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## Readerdefence

Zarvan said:


> No but quite close to Army guys in fact he was the one who gave me that picture of Rifle trials which I posted last year which told us that Rifles like MPT-76 and SIG have also joined trials.


Hi my friend if he is too close to guys in army then try to get something from him instead of giving your info or any other relevant statistics 
Thx

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## araz

Zarvan said:


> No but quite close to Army guys in fact he was the one who gave me that picture of Rifle trials which I posted last year which told us that Rifles like MPT-76 and SIG have also joined trials.


Zarvi 
You are a fool if you are printing off info he is giving you. You are jeoperdising his career and your neck. So please stop this stupidity. This is my post to you as a brother. 
A

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## kenyannoobie

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Procuring the Rooivalk, H215m and H225m wouldn't be a bad idea, but for it to work, a few major things will need to line up. Basically, Pakistan needs Airbus Helicopters' to not only approve of the Puma's engines and dynamic components (e.g. main rotor, tail rotor, gearbox, etc) for the Rooivalk, but also transfer the technology the engine maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) and dynamic components.
> 
> I believe if Pakistan gets the ability to have engine MRO and to locally manufacture the dynamic components, it would have very little trouble in locally supporting the Rooivalk, Super Puma and Caracal.
> 
> That aside, the deep commonality (engine and dynamic components) between the Rooivalk, H125m (Super Puma) and H225m (Caracal) would be a major benefit. The Rooivalk can be used as a heavyweight attack helicopter to support our armour; the Super Puma can serve as a mainstay medium-lift utility helicopter; and the Caracal can serve as a naval warfare and heavy-medium utility helicopter.


 I feel sorry for the S Africans,really I do. The Rooivalk is a wonderful platform but it was made for anti tank warfare. Selling a HCH is a tough sell; you need political reach ,FRANKLY beyond most middle countries like RSA. Fyi,the UK,Malaysia and Algeria IIRC all wanted it at one time.
The US sabotaged the UK deal when they refused to share codes that work have let the Rooivalk shoot the TOW. S Africa should've introduced a lighter,scaled down light version. Instead they are competing with the Apache , Euro tiger and Hind each of whose makers can provide heavy hitting political economic support to potential buyers.

Also that 45 mn $ price tag is reserved for developed nations. Fyi,the Hind though not a true gunship goes for roughly a third at 16 mn $.


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## blinder

Beech 350i N1084B FL-1084 was tracked flying to Islamabad from Al Ain, UAE, on 18 June.
Was this a delivery flight to the army? It is registered with Textron (holding company / owner of Beech) but it is an aircraft in "surveillance configuration"...


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## SQ8

araz said:


> Zarvi
> You are a fool if you are printing off info he is giving you. You are jeoperdising his career and your neck. So please stop this stupidity. This is my post to you as a brother.
> A


Unrelated, sometimes people are given "information " just to get them to leave someone alone.

However, at times younger less exposed folk will still say more than they should to people in showing off and that can be dangerous

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## Ahmet Pasha

What if Zarvan accidntally exposes something which he isnt supposed to and gets picked up by the "powers that be".

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## Muhammad Omar

Agusta Westland 139

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## DESERT FIGHTER

kenyannoobie said:


> I feel sorry for the S Africans,really I do. The Rooivalk is a wonderful platform but it was made for anti tank warfare. Selling a HCH is a tough sell; you need political reach ,FRANKLY beyond most middle countries like RSA. Fyi,the UK,Malaysia and Algeria IIRC all wanted it at one time.
> The US sabotaged the UK deal when they refused to share codes that work have let the Rooivalk shoot the TOW. S Africa should've introduced a lighter,scaled down light version. Instead they are competing with the Apache , Euro tiger and Hind each of whose makers can provide heavy hitting political economic support to potential buyers.
> 
> Also that 45 mn $ price tag is reserved for developed nations. Fyi,the Hind though not a true gunship goes for roughly a third at 16 mn $.


Not so sure about MI35 costing16 mil... coz Pak bought em for around 37.8 mil... unless it includes after sales support?

But again MI35 has commonalities with MI17.. which we already maintain and overhaul at our local facilities..


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## Ahmet Pasha

Muhammad Omar said:


> Agusta Westland 139
> View attachment 411186



Is that an m version?


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## nomi007

Puma SM in Congo. 
Pakistan Army Aviation in Support of UN.

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## nomi007

The Mi-35M features a pretty good selfie stick


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## fatman17

Russia designs helicopter based on fighting terrorists based on Syrian experience

18th July 2017 Helicopter
Andrey Boginsky, 

Mi-171Sh-VN,Rostec, Russian Helicopters





Russian Helicopters has revealed it has designed an anti-terror helicopter based on Russia’s involvement in the Syrian conflict.

Designs for the Mi-171Sh-VN advanced military transport helicopter, which will support special anti-terrorism operation forces, will be presented at the international MAKS-2017 airshow in Moscow.

“The helicopter has a whole number of design features that enhance its combat effectiveness and tolerance to battle damage,” said Russian Helicopters CEO Andrey Boginsky, who revealed that the model has been inspired by the combat deployment of helicopters in warzones such as Syria.

Equipped with engines improved for better altitude and climate performance, the Mi-171Sh-VN helicopter can reach cruise and maximum speeds of up to 260 km/h and 280 km/h respectively, and boasts a maximum takeoff weight of 13,500 kg.

New flight and navigation equipment has also been incorporated into the helicopter, with the glass cockpit combined with analogue devices to enhance tolerance to battle damage. Kevlar has been deployed throughout the main body to protect the crew, with two 12.7mm guns in the right and left doorways and two bow machine guns on the truss structure.

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## fatman17

The original Cobra

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## fatman17

Z18A could be a ideal replacement for the ageing Puma helicopter

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 412678
> 
> Z18A could be a ideal replacement for the ageing Puma helicopter


The Z-18A is larger than the Puma, it's more of a possible successor to the Mil Mi-17/171. For the Puma, something like the Z-20, T-70 and AW149 would be more appropriate (i.e. medium-lift utility helicopter).

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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 412678
> 
> Z18A could be a ideal replacement for the ageing Puma helicopter


Sir, its a 3 engine heli, much expensive to operate and maintenance wise hungry too. 

Best options would be Chinese ac352 which is in development or the chinese black hawk copy z20. 

Or may be the aw139.

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## nomi007

Trango Towers, and Start of Baltoro Glacier.
Panorama (handheld) — at Trango Towers.

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## nomi007



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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

Alouette l prototype


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## -------

According to Turkish aviation news outlet (HERE), Pakistan is interested in acquiring turboprop driven COIN aircraft. Pakistan has shown special interest in Hürkuş C.

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## nomi007



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## Muhammad Omar

Combat-Master said:


> According to Turkish aviation news outlet (HERE), Pakistan is interested in acquiring turboprop driven COIN aircraft. Pakistan has shown special interest in Hürkuş C.



we can get so much from Turkey  
this will surely help in COIN operation

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## fatman17

Combat-Master said:


> According to Turkish aviation news outlet (HERE), Pakistan is interested in acquiring turboprop driven COIN aircraft. Pakistan has shown special interest in Hürkuş C.


Still in prototype / trials stage.


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## -------

fatman17 said:


> Still in prototype / trials stage.



Turkish army has ordered 12 +12 optional, first aircraft is expected to enter service next year (2018).

Source



Muhammad Omar said:


> we can get so much from Turkey
> this will surely help in COIN operation



Hürkuş-B could replace T-37, Hürkuş-C used for COIN along with T-129

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## Muhammad Omar

Combat-Master said:


> Turkish army has ordered 12 +12 optional, first aircraft is expected to enter service next year (2018).
> 
> Source
> 
> 
> 
> Hürkuş-B could replace T-37, Hürkuş-C used for COIN along with T-129



Nightmare for the terrorists


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IMO the only way the Hürkuş C will come to Pakistan is if the PAF also embraces the Hürkuş B to replace the T-37. That way the cost of raising domestic maintenance and logistics infrastructure, including local MRO, partial sub-assemblies manufacturing and assembly, would make sense (to support to a large number of aircraft.

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## HAIDER

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the only way the Hürkuş C will come to Pakistan is if the PAF also embraces the Hürkuş B to replace the T-37. That way the cost of raising domestic maintenance and logistics infrastructure, including local MRO, partial sub-assemblies manufacturing and assembly, would make sense (to support to a large number of aircraft.


rotary engine is very cheap to maintained and best for COIN.


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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the only way the Hürkuş C will come to Pakistan is if the PAF also embraces the Hürkuş B to replace the T-37. That way the cost of raising domestic maintenance and logistics infrastructure, including local MRO, partial sub-assemblies manufacturing and assembly, would make sense (to support to a large number of aircraft.



I think it could be the Army Aviation which must have showed interest in the Hürkuş-C to establish limited CAS arm other then PAF 

I don't see any role for this system with PAF .... ???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> I think it could be the Army Aviation which must have showed interest in the Hürkuş-C to establish limited CAS arm other then PAF
> 
> I don't see any role for this system with PAF .... ???


Me neither, unless the PAF decides to construct a specialist COIN force. I don't think it would be prudent to burden any single service for COIN. This needs to be distributed. I would have liked to see them establishing something like the Air National Guard - with PAF, PA, PN, MoD and MoI funding - armed with Hürkuş-C, utility helicopters, transport helicopters, ISR assets, transport aircraft and even attack helicopters. Each of these can be assigned to the armed forces in external conflict, or perhaps the ANG can take on specific roles from them (e.g. guarding infrastructure).

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## TaimiKhan

Combat-Master said:


> According to Turkish aviation news outlet (HERE), Pakistan is interested in acquiring turboprop driven COIN aircraft. Pakistan has shown special interest in Hürkuş C.


With the CSF drying up, the per sortie cost for bombing / recon is very high which will put extra financial burden on PAF resources. This is something they should have done very long time ago. If this gets inducted, can be used for training purposes and COIN ops with low cost operationally.

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## Rocky rock

*Bell AH-1Z Viper* attack helicopters are ready to be delivered to *Pak*istan *Army Aviation*. They'll replace the old Cobras.
After US Pakistan will be the first country to operate these attack helicopters 3 to be delivered this year's while 9 more in 2018.

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## khanasifm

What is the source for this pairing Defense news


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## khanasifm

Last time 10 cobras along with 4 bell [emoji348] 206 made a sqn so there were 2 sqns 12 means a single sqn or 2 sqn with 6 cobra and 6 French provided light copter with light weapons makeing a single sqn ?? Guessing


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## Thorough Pro

From background and curtains, looks like they are already in Pakistan and literally kept under wraps.




Rocky rock said:


> *Bell AH-1Z Viper* attack helicopters are ready to be delivered to *Pak*istan *Army Aviation*. They'll replace the old Cobras.
> After US Pakistan will be the first country to operate these attack helicopters 3 to be delivered this year's while 9 more in 2018.
> 
> View attachment 418859
> View attachment 418860
> View attachment 418861


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## Sulman Badshah

AW 139 with FLIR on board

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> AW 139 with FLIR on board
> 
> View attachment 418992


So they can be used for aerial view in case of operations ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> So they can be used for aerial view in case of operations ?


Yep it can enable the helicopter crew to clearly see what's happening on the ground from a fair distance and possibly even laser illuminate an area for a fighter or attack helicopter to fire at (via LGB or ATGM, respectively). 

Looks like a FLIR Systems turret, maybe Star SAFIRE III.

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> So they can be used for aerial view in case of operations ?


yes ... But for that helicopter or drone are better


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> yes ... But for that helicopter or drone are better


I was think more for Police Force in future as budget improves we should consider these kind of helicopters in Police also


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## khanasifm

Zarvan said:


> So they can be used for aerial view in case of operations ?



Do we know the number inducted and which sar sqn ? I guess it's jackabad based with block 52 and no 11 sqn ??

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## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> I was think more for Police Force in future as budget improves we should consider these kind of helicopters in Police also


 even the police in Us doesnt have gunships, all police needs is recon ariel assets with capability to fire bullets and that can be accomodated by a large varierty of lighter platforms and a better way is to merge para groups into one national guard which can be called to support police if need be, we can equip that national gaurd with light attack helis...


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## Zarvan

Awan68 said:


> even the police in Us doesnt have gunships, all police needs is recon ariel assets with capability to fire bullets and that can be accomodated by a large varierty of lighter platforms and a better way is to merge para groups into one national guard which can be called to support police if need be, we can equip that national gaurd with light attack helis...


Who is asking to give Gunships to Police I am asking to give Police Camera fitted Helicopters to monitor cities and provide Aerial view and those who chase. But still these are years away

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## Awan68

Zarvan said:


> Who is asking to give Gunships to Police I am asking to give Police Camera fitted Helicopters to monitor cities and provide Aerial view and those who chase. But still these are years away


oh, it seems u were talking about the learnado while i thought u were discussing the ah 1z's, my bad.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Awan68 said:


> oh, it seems u were talking about the learnado while i thought u were discussing the ah 1z's, my bad.



Fennec are good recon and light attack Helios for police. California Highway Patrol has many in it's inventory. For many roles including SAR and chasing bad guys and surveillance.

Police special special forces such as ctd could be equipped with such helis for crucial operations. Enabling SWAT teams like CTD to fast rope operators in hostile zone and provide overhead support/situational awareness to operators on ground.


Zarvan said:


> I was think more for Police Force in future as budget improves we should consider these kind of helicopters in Police also





Awan68 said:


> oh, it seems u were talking about the learnado while i thought u were discussing the ah 1z's, my bad.

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## nomi007



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## Inception-06

credits PIA Forum: Helicopters including Lama, Alouette III, AH-1 Cobra and Mi-17 seen at Pakistan Army Museum in Lahore. Opening of the museum expected on Pakistan Independence Day anniversary i.e. August 14 this year. I will defenitly visit that museum, after that the Rawelpindi Army museum !

@django @Mentee @pathfinder @Zarvan @DESERT FIGHTER

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## Talon

Ulla said:


> credits PIA Forum: Helicopters including Lama, Alouette III, AH-1 Cobra and Mi-17 seen at Pakistan Army Museum in Lahore. Opening of the museum expected on Pakistan Independence Day anniversary i.e. August 14 this year. I will defenitly visit that museum, after that the Rawelpindi Army museum !
> 
> @django @Mentee @pathfinder @Zarvan @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> View attachment 420081
> 
> View attachment 420083


I've seen this place...its right beside the Golf and Country Club and to left side of OPLA..these Helis can easily be seen from the road.

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## nomi007

after Mil MI-35

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## khanasifm

nomi007 said:


> after Mil MI-35



Same load capability as c130 b/h only shortcoming 4600 m height

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## SQ8

khanasifm said:


> Same load capability as c130 b/h only shortcoming 4600 m height


Along with ridiculous operating costs

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## Ahmet Pasha

Are sky cranes on par with mi26


Oscar said:


> Along with ridiculous operating costs


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## SQ8

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Are sky cranes on par with mi26


Its a focused airframe rather than being something truly adaptable to multiple needs.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> Along with ridiculous operating costs


I think with the PAA it was CH-47 or nil, but even that isn't a major priority versus building large medium-heavy (Mil-171) and utility (AW139/Bell 412EP) fleets. Interestingly, China and Russia are also working on a new 'Advanced Heavy Helicopter' that's closer in size and capability to the CH-47.

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## Ahmet Pasha

They are also developing a successor to the MI-171 aka MI-8


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think with the PAA it was CH-47 or nil, but even that isn't a major priority versus building large medium-heavy (Mil-171) and utility (AW139/Bell 412EP) fleets. Interestingly, China and Russia are also working on a new 'Advanced Heavy Helicopter' that's closer in size and capability to the CH-47.

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## khanasifm

Mi-171 successor is mi-38 which carry 2000kg more load internally and 2000 kg more on the sling compared to mi-171 and 200km more range than mi-171 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-38

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## Ahmet Pasha

Hence, a good option to considering recent warming up of Russia and Trump being a bully to Pakistan


khanasifm said:


> Mi-171 successor is mi-38 which carry 2000kg more load internally and 2000 kg more on the sling compared to mi-171 and 200km more range than mi-171 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-38

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## fatman17

Air-Launched Weapons

Roketsan begins serial production of UMTAS IIR





Robin Hughes - IHS Jane's Missiles & Rockets

23 August 2017

UMTAS-IIR launched from the UMTAS Smart Launcher on a Turkish Land Forces AH-1 Cobra attack helicopter during firing trials earlier this year. Source: Roketsan

Roketsan has begun serial production of the UMTAS (Uzun Menzilli Tanksavar Sistemi) imaging infrared (UMTAS-IIR) variant, long-range anti-tank guided missile (ATGM), following successful finalisation of the development and qualification of the missile – including firing trials from a Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI)/AgustaWestland T129 ATAK helicopter – earlier this year.

"The UMTAS-IIR development is a three-phase programme: design; development and qualification; and serial production. The first two phases have already been completed, and a five-year production contract was awarded to Roketsan following the finalisation of contract negotiations with the Turkish Armed Forces [TAF] in December 2016. This will run from 2017 through to 2022," a Roketsan official told Jane's . In July, Roketsan signed a EUR24.6 million (USD29 million) sub-contract with Aselsan for the manufacture and production of the uncooled IIR seeker for the UMTAS-IIR variant.

Initial deliveries of the first contract to the TAF are expected to begin in 2018, and are scheduled for completion by 2022; the quantities of missiles have not been disclosed. In the interim, Roketsan is expecting further production contracts for the IIR variant, as well as possible additional orders for the L-UMTAS.

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## fatman17

Inside #KazanHelicopters' legendary Mi-8/17 production line, video report to come / Many thanks @RusHeliCo! https://t.co/vcpIH5PaNi

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## Sulman Badshah

*Russia completed the delivery of four Mi-35 combat helicopters to Pakistan*
Plot:
International Military Technical Forum "Army-2017" (169)
16:10 08/25/2017
0104191




© RIA Novosti / Yevgeny Biyatov
Go to the photobank


*Kubinka (Moscow region), August 25 - RIA Novosti. *Russia completed the contract to supply Pakistan with four Mi-35 combat helicopters, Brigadier General Vahid Mumtaz, spokesman for the Defense Export Promotion Organization of Pakistan, told RIA Novosti on Friday at the Army-2017 forum.






© RIA Novosti / Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation
Go to the photobank
More than 30 VKS crews will be relocated to Kubinka for the forum "Army-2017"
The contract for the supply of four Mi-35 helicopters was signed in 2015.


"The contract was signed, we received all four cars and now we get new equipment," Mumtaz said, answering the journalist's question.



The interlocutor of the agency noted that at present the Pakistani pilots are getting acquainted with the Russian equipment, following the results of operation, a decision can be made not only about the purchase of Russian helicopters, but also the whole range of military equipment: armored, aviation and naval

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## fatman17

Sulman Badshah said:


> *Russia completed the delivery of four Mi-35 combat helicopters to Pakistan*
> Plot:
> International Military Technical Forum "Army-2017" (169)
> 16:10 08/25/2017
> 0104191
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [emoji767] RIA Novosti / Yevgeny Biyatov
> Go to the photobank
> 
> 
> *Kubinka (Moscow region), August 25 - RIA Novosti. *Russia completed the contract to supply Pakistan with four Mi-35 combat helicopters, Brigadier General Vahid Mumtaz, spokesman for the Defense Export Promotion Organization of Pakistan, told RIA Novosti on Friday at the Army-2017 forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [emoji767] RIA Novosti / Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation
> Go to the photobank
> More than 30 VKS crews will be relocated to Kubinka for the forum "Army-2017"
> The contract for the supply of four Mi-35 helicopters was signed in 2015.
> 
> 
> "The contract was signed, we received all four cars and now we get new equipment," Mumtaz said, answering the journalist's question.
> 
> 
> 
> The interlocutor of the agency noted that at present the Pakistani pilots are getting acquainted with the Russian equipment, following the results of operation, a decision can be made not only about the purchase of Russian helicopters, but also the whole range of military equipment: armored, aviation and naval


Reading between the lines. 
1. Russia demands 100% payment upfront. Pakistan paid probably in installments, hence the delay. 
2. Are Pakistan pilots finding it difficult to handle the weapons system. 
3. No other media outlet picked this historic news.

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## Safriz

fatman17 said:


> Reading between the lines.
> 1. Russia demands 100% payment upfront. Pakistan paid probably in installments, hence the delay.
> 2.* Are Pakistan pilots finding it difficult to handle the weapons system. *
> 3. No other media outlet picked this historic news.


Captured MI-24 were flown for more than an year by Pakistani pilots, remember?
That too without any special training.

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## fatman17

شاھین میزایل said:


> Captured MI-24 were flown for more than an year by Pakistani pilots, remember?
> That too without any special training.


That's true. not trying to demean anyone just pointing out.

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## TaimiKhan

شاھین میزایل said:


> Captured MI-24 were flown for more than an year by Pakistani pilots, remember?
> That too without any special training.


Those mi24s were still being flown in late 90s in quetta. In 98-99 i am witness to having seen 2 of them flying in quetta. 

First they will get delivered in pieces, assembled, testing and then would start properly getting flown. Till aug14 rehearsals no one had the idea that aw139s were in service with PAF. 

Hope they induct more. Lot of new things coming in aviation side, PA and PAF gets aw139s, PA Zulus are ready for delivery or may even have gotten delivered and now these.

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## Sine Nomine

You guys made my day,MI-24 is known as ''Shaitan Chariot" by Afghans.
No duo would be better then,SSG rappelling from Mi-24 of PAA and then the duo pinning down the Terrorists.

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## fatman17

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> You guys made my day,MI-24 is known as ''Shaitan Chariot" by Afghans.
> No duo would be better then,SSG rappelling from Mi-24 of PAA and then the duo pinning down the Terrorists.


These helos going to ANF.

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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> These helos going to ANF.


Sir ji, yea mananay wali baat hai ?? Hahahahahaha.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> These helos going to ANF.


Sir we are not going to hand over these beasts Anti Narcotics Force

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## AMG_12

fatman17 said:


> These helos going to ANF.


Just like the many other MI-17s used by ANF

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## Thorough Pro

All narcotics come from across Afghan border...



TaimiKhan said:


> Sir ji, yea mananay wali baat hai ?? Hahahahahaha.

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## TaimiKhan

Thorough Pro said:


> All narcotics come from across Afghan border...


Bhai kis mulk mae mi35 or attack helicopter use hota hai for narcotics ?? Bell Huey kind of heli more then enough.

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## Sine Nomine

fatman17 said:


> These helos going to ANF.





Game.Invade said:


> Just like the many other MI-17s used by ANF


So,you want to say I will be riding them,Sir!

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## SQ8

Enough internet for today@Dazzler @MastanKhan @Irfan Baloch @TaimiKhan

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> Enough internet for today@Dazzler @MastanKhan @Irfan Baloch @TaimiKhan
> View attachment 421562


Good thing no one posted that with their personal Twitter handles, lest there by any confusion Lol


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Oscar said:


> Enough internet for today@Dazzler @MastanKhan @Irfan Baloch @TaimiKhan
> View attachment 421562


she missed out T-129


----------



## Thorough Pro

there is a second meaning to what i posted



TaimiKhan said:


> Bhai kis mulk mae mi35 or attack helicopter use hota hai for narcotics ?? Bell Huey kind of heli more then enough.


----------



## Windjammer



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## fatman17

Helicopters From Russia

The Mi-35M gunships will replace part of Pakistan’s aging attack helicopter fleet.

By Franz-Stefan Gady

August 29, 2017






The Pakistan Army Aviation Corps (PAAC) took delivery of four Russian-made Mi-35M attack helicopters, Pakistan’s Defense Export Promotion Organization (DEPO) confirmed in a statement issued at this year’s International Military-Technical Forum (Army 2017), which took place August 22-27 in Moscow,according to local media reports.

“The contract was signed, we received all four cars [Mi-35Ms] and now we get new equipment,” DEPOs Brigadier General Waheed Mumtaz told reporters in Moscow. PAAC are now getting acquainted with the new equipment. Based on the gunships’ performance a follow-up order for additional helicopters is under consideration, Mumtaz said. The general also noted that other Pakistani orders of Russian military equipment might take place depending on the Pakistani military’s experience with the helicopters.

Russia officially lifted an arms embargo against Pakistan, in place since the Soviet-Afghan War, in June 2014.

Enjoying this article? Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.

Pakistan and Russia agreed to the $153 million helicopter deal during then-Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Raheel Sharif’s visit to Russia in June 2016. A preliminary contract was concluded at the Pakistan Army General Headquarters in Rawalpindi in August 2015. Pakistan military sources indicate that PAAC could purchase a total of 20 Mi-35 helicopters in the coming years. “Given the cost of building the necessary Mi-35M logistics and maintenance infrastructure, expanding the fleet beyond four aircraft would financially be a sound decision for the Pakistani military,” I explained in December 2016. The Mi-25M is a formidable weapons platform, as I noted elsewhere (See: “Confirmed: Pakistan Is Buying New Attack Helicopters From Russia”):

The Mi-35M attack helicopter, the export version of the Mi-24 gunship, was developed by the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant and has been produced in Russia since 2005. Next to serving in the Russian military, the aircraft has been exported to Azerbaijan, Brazil, Iraq, and Venezuela.

The company website of Russian Helicopters notes that the Mi-35 is particularly suited for mountainous terrain and can be deployed “round the clock” in adverse weather conditions. The website notes that the helicopter offers “combat use of guided and unguided weapons in regular and challenging climate conditions” and is “operational for attack flights at altitudes of 10-25 m daytime and 50 m at night over land or water.”

The helicopter can be deployed for a host of different missions, including transporting up to eight paratroopers and carrying military supplies weighing up to 1,500 kg internally and 2,400 kg externally.

It is unknown in what configuration the helicopters were delivered. The gunship is fitted with a mounted twin-barrel GSh-23V 23 millimeter cannon, and can also carry 80 and 120 millimeter rockets, as well as anti-tank guided missiles. The Pakistan Army is specifically looking to enhance its close-air support capability for counter-insurgency operations as well as anti-tank warfare.

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## Cornered Tiger

HRK said:


> I think it could be the Army Aviation which must have showed interest in the Hürkuş-C to establish limited CAS arm other then PAF
> 
> I don't see any role for this system with PAF .... ???



I think PAF established ACE with a reason to have a parallel focus on COIN as well. So, Hurkus-C, if inducted, will be in a separate squadron having a training wing at ACE using same platform

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## Arsalan



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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Russia delivers four Mi-35M helos to Pakistan, says report

Gabriel Dominguez - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

30 August 2017

Russia has completed delivery of four Mil Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps (PAAC), Brigadier General Waheed Mumtaz, spokesperson for the Defence Export Promotion Organization of Pakistan, was quoted by Russian news agency RIA Novosti as saying on 25 August.

"The contract was signed, we received all four [helicopters], and now we get new equipment," Brig Gen Mumtaz told reporters at this year’s Army-2017 defence exhibition, which took place from 22-27 August near Moscow.





Pakistan has received four Mi-35M attack helicopters (similar to this one) from Russia, according to the RIA Novosti news agency. (Russian Aerospace Forces)

The spokesperson said that Pakistani pilots are now becoming acquainted with the new equipment. Based on the PAAC’s experience with the helicopters, Islamabad will now decide whether to place an order for additional helicopters as well as for other Russian military equipment and platforms, he was quoted as saying.

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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Russia delivers four Mi-35M helos to Pakistan, says report
> 
> Gabriel Dominguez - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 30 August 2017
> 
> Russia has completed delivery of four Mil Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps (PAAC), Brigadier General Waheed Mumtaz, spokesperson for the Defence Export Promotion Organization of Pakistan, was quoted by Russian news agency RIA Novosti as saying on 25 August.
> 
> "The contract was signed, we received all four [helicopters], and now we get new equipment," Brig Gen Mumtaz told reporters at this year’s Army-2017 defence exhibition, which took place from 22-27 August near Moscow.
> View attachment 421998
> 
> 
> Pakistan has received four Mi-35M attack helicopters (similar to this one) from Russia, according to the RIA Novosti news agency. (Russian Aerospace Forces)
> 
> The spokesperson said that Pakistani pilots are now becoming acquainted with the new equipment. Based on the PAAC’s experience with the helicopters, Islamabad will now decide whether to place an order for additional helicopters as well as for other Russian military equipment and platforms, he was quoted as saying.



This is what i was afraid of. This is why i want PA to not look at usa as they will ditch us whenever they want and we will then suffer. 

https://www.dawn.com/news/1355318/us-attaches-new-conditions-to-pledged-military-aid

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## fatman17

Any pics of Mi35P in PAA livery?

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> Any pics of Mi35P in PAA livery?

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## Army research

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 422590


That's not a mi 35M variant

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## mingle

Pak should have around 50 Hinds reason commonality with Mi17 easy to maintain and yes rugged can carry commando Assault will keep Mi17 out of danger zone .

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## Signalian

With gunships coming in now and many types of transport helicopters coming in the past, its time to make an air assault brigade supported by aviation assets. Conversion of 111 Brigade can be a reasonable choice.

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## fatman17

Signalian said:


> With gunships coming in now and many types of transport helicopters coming in the past, its time to make an air assault brigade supported by aviation assets. Conversion of 111 Brigade can be a reasonable choice.


That would be between 3000 and 5000 troops plus arms and materials. We don't have enough helos to cater to this need. Now a battalion would be a intriguing option.

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## Readerdefence



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## fatman17

AW189 medium lift, ideal to replace the Pumas.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 425279
> 
> AW189 medium lift, ideal to replace the Pumas.


The AW189 is the civilian version of the AW149. The AW149 is basically a stretched/enlarged AW139 with higher output engines (GE CT7 instead of PW&C PT6). Could be a viable option for replacing the Pumas and old Hueys. One can even develop a naval version of the AW149 with ASW and AShW capabilities.

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## Hassan Guy

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 425279
> 
> AW189 medium lift, ideal to replace the Pumas.


Or we could try building at least one helicopter in Pakistan...

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## fatman17

AVIC Mil AHL "advanced heavy lift" helicopter in revised form. https://t.co/31cRd26Wsm

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## fatman17

WZ-10, 1600kw class turboshaft engine to power Z-20 on display at the 2017 China Helicopter Expo. https://t.co/fpIZULWa4G https://t.co/pA7OfwjcpU

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## fatman17

Mass mounted radar on Z19 light armed scout / reconnaissance helo

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## fatman17

China shows first unmanned attack helicopter, can move 120 kg of weapons https://t.co/waLwNw3inI https://t.co/0MokOTFnRj

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/909557868231237632Watch

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## python-000

fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/909557868231237632Watch


so when we are going to get our *Z-10's *did we order some of these ???

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## nomi007

99% people ignore Ah-1Z

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## khanasifm

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 426181
> 
> 99% people ignore Ah-1Z



What's at the front air to air refuelling probe? Or some other sensor with red cover on it ?

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## TaimiKhan

khanasifm said:


> What's at the front air to air refuelling probe? Or some other sensor with red cover on it ?


That is HADS Helicopter Air Data System. This one is made by a company known as Meggit Avionics.

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## khanasifm

TaimiKhan said:


> That is HADS Helicopter Air Data System. This one is made by a company known as Meggit Avionics.



You are right just curious if paa will also buy aim9 with it as Oem stating there is no comparison to it most other heli fly very short range mistral or stringer which cannot match aim9 

https://www.google.com/search?q=ah-..._AUIEigC&biw=320&bih=460#imgrc=cgkQqPIJ8IhhIM:


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Such a simple machinery and hard to imagine we can't make one in Pakistan


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## Signalian

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 426181
> 
> 99% people ignore Ah-1Z


willing to ignore AH-1Z if replaced by T-129

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## khanasifm

A LITTLE-KNOWN HERO OF ARMY AVIATION

It was early morning of 4 th January 1972 when Major Muhammad Qasim took off from Gujranwala Strip (a flight of No 2 Army Aviation Squadron had been moved to Gujranwala to support the operations of field formations). It was late in the afternoon when flight headquarters at Gujranwala received a telephone call from GSO-2. The caller wanted to talk to Major Qasim and apologized for not sending the vehicle at Satrah Strip where Major Qasim was to land. He was surprised when informed that Major Qasim had not returned, as according to him Major Qasim had left an hour ago. 

It was then that the search for the missing aircraft started. All the inquiries revealed that Major Qasim took off from Satrah for Gujranwala at 1200 hours on 4 th January 1972, in L-19 (No-003) with 2nd Lieutenant Muhammad Humayun Raza, a Bengali officer of 24 Signal Battalion, on board. The air force agencies and the troops on the Forward Defended Localities were contacted but nothing was known except Major Qasim had taken off from Satrah. Soon after, the BBC and the All India Radio broke the news of the hijacking of a L-19 and that Major Qasim had been shot dead. 

It was revealed later, that when Major Qasim landed at Satrah, 2nd Lieutenant Humayun Raza contacted him and requested for a lift to Gujranwala. Major Qasim in his usual helpful attitude and politeness promised to pick him up after he completed his mission. He, however, also advised him to get permission from the divisional headquarters for the airlift. After dropping the brigade commander in Pasrur, Major Qasim, on his way back, landed at Satrah to pick up this officer, not knowing that the passenger had different plans and was going to be his assassin. 

According to the team responsible for maintaining the strip, Major Qasim took off and then made a circuit as if to land back but went around on finals. This information, and the position of the wounds after post mortem, revealed that one bullet was fired at the right cheek which went through the left cheek and the second bullet was fired from the right ear which penetrated the brain. It indicates that 2nd Lieutenant Raza probably had threatened Major Qasim to turn towards India soon after take off, but on refusal, and seeing him attempting to land back, fired the first round. This first round was not fatal and Major Qasim still attempted to land back. This is also validated by the accounts of eye witnesses on ground, who described the aircraft banking and then straightening up. It is at this stage that Humayun fired the second fatal round. After shooting Major Qasim, this officer, knowing a bit of flying, flew towards India and crash-landed in the fields not too far from the border. (This Bengali officer had gone through some flying before being suspended due to lack of aptitude, prior to the war.)

A few words about the assassin. More than the so-called Bengali patriotism, assassin Raza wanted to avoid the punishment he was to receive from the Division Commander the following day for driving without license and running over an old woman. 

Major Qasim's body was received from India on 7th January 1972 ie, after four days of his shahadat. Major Qasim was awarded Sitara-i-Jur'at for the act of bravery and supreme sacrifice in an effort to uphold the honour of his motherland. Later, Army Aviation Base Dhamial was named after Major Muhammad Qasim. It is now known as Qasim Army Aviation Base. 

_________________

[Major Muhammad Qasim was born on 1st October 1939 in Village Adina, District Mardan. He was commissioned in the Corps of Signals in October 1960. He attended Basic Flying Course P-6 in 1964 and was posted to No1 Army Aviation Squadron. He took active part in 1965 War and flew many operational sorties. In 1969 he qualified as Flying Instructor on L-19 from Flying Instructor School, PAF Academy. Major Qasim served as instructor in Army Aviation School from 1969 to 1971, and in the last week of November 1971, he was attached with No 2 Army Aviation Squadron.]

Never knew about this story reference ac kashif tufail

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## Windjammer



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## Suff Shikan

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 426565



Awsome pic, Milky Wayyyyyyyyyyyy

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## Windjammer



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## mingle

No pics of New MI 35 's ?

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## Imran Khan

mingle said:


> No pics of New MI 35 's ?


they are under preparations at qasim

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## Secret Service

Imran Khan said:


> they are under preparations at qasim


arrived in Pakistan ??

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## Imran Khan

secretservice said:


> arrived in Pakistan ??


as per reports yes they are in pakistan sir . remember abut CFT-AMRAAM case we wait months to got first picture after arrival . in this case few weeks is not too long

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## Zarvan

Is there any news of USA taking back some utility helicopters ? A friend who works at BOL news is saying that ???

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## HRK

Zarvan said:


> Is there any news of USA taking back some utility helicopters ? A friend who works at BOL news is saying that ???


Zarwan yaar basi khabar hai .....

American donated/lend some of helicopters & Cessna aircrafts for Anti Narcotics Operations, now they are demanding it back as arm twisting tactic .... but negotiations are underway nothing is final as of yet



> The US sponsored Air Wing contains *14 HUEY-II helicopters *and *three Cessna Caravan *aircrafts.
> http://nation.com.pk/politics/08-Apr-2010/us-seeks-land-for-dyncorp

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## Thorough Pro

Thank you for sharing. May ALLAH grant him eternal peace and high status in Jannah. Ameen. 



khanasifm said:


> A LITTLE-KNOWN HERO OF ARMY AVIATION
> 
> It was early morning of 4 th January 1972 when Major Muhammad Qasim took off from Gujranwala Strip (a flight of No 2 Army Aviation Squadron had been moved to Gujranwala to support the operations of field formations). It was late in the afternoon when flight headquarters at Gujranwala received a telephone call from GSO-2. The caller wanted to talk to Major Qasim and apologized for not sending the vehicle at Satrah Strip where Major Qasim was to land. He was surprised when informed that Major Qasim had not returned, as according to him Major Qasim had left an hour ago.
> 
> It was then that the search for the missing aircraft started. All the inquiries revealed that Major Qasim took off from Satrah for Gujranwala at 1200 hours on 4 th January 1972, in L-19 (No-003) with 2nd Lieutenant Muhammad Humayun Raza, a Bengali officer of 24 Signal Battalion, on board. The air force agencies and the troops on the Forward Defended Localities were contacted but nothing was known except Major Qasim had taken off from Satrah. Soon after, the BBC and the All India Radio broke the news of the hijacking of a L-19 and that Major Qasim had been shot dead.
> 
> It was revealed later, that when Major Qasim landed at Satrah, 2nd Lieutenant Humayun Raza contacted him and requested for a lift to Gujranwala. Major Qasim in his usual helpful attitude and politeness promised to pick him up after he completed his mission. He, however, also advised him to get permission from the divisional headquarters for the airlift. After dropping the brigade commander in Pasrur, Major Qasim, on his way back, landed at Satrah to pick up this officer, not knowing that the passenger had different plans and was going to be his assassin.
> 
> According to the team responsible for maintaining the strip, Major Qasim took off and then made a circuit as if to land back but went around on finals. This information, and the position of the wounds after post mortem, revealed that one bullet was fired at the right cheek which went through the left cheek and the second bullet was fired from the right ear which penetrated the brain. It indicates that 2nd Lieutenant Raza probably had threatened Major Qasim to turn towards India soon after take off, but on refusal, and seeing him attempting to land back, fired the first round. This first round was not fatal and Major Qasim still attempted to land back. This is also validated by the accounts of eye witnesses on ground, who described the aircraft banking and then straightening up. It is at this stage that Humayun fired the second fatal round. After shooting Major Qasim, this officer, knowing a bit of flying, flew towards India and crash-landed in the fields not too far from the border. (This Bengali officer had gone through some flying before being suspended due to lack of aptitude, prior to the war.)
> 
> A few words about the assassin. More than the so-called Bengali patriotism, assassin Raza wanted to avoid the punishment he was to receive from the Division Commander the following day for driving without license and running over an old woman.
> 
> Major Qasim's body was received from India on 7th January 1972 ie, after four days of his shahadat. Major Qasim was awarded Sitara-i-Jur'at for the act of bravery and supreme sacrifice in an effort to uphold the honour of his motherland. Later, Army Aviation Base Dhamial was named after Major Muhammad Qasim. It is now known as Qasim Army Aviation Base.
> 
> _________________
> 
> [Major Muhammad Qasim was born on 1st October 1939 in Village Adina, District Mardan. He was commissioned in the Corps of Signals in October 1960. He attended Basic Flying Course P-6 in 1964 and was posted to No1 Army Aviation Squadron. He took active part in 1965 War and flew many operational sorties. In 1969 he qualified as Flying Instructor on L-19 from Flying Instructor School, PAF Academy. Major Qasim served as instructor in Army Aviation School from 1969 to 1971, and in the last week of November 1971, he was attached with No 2 Army Aviation Squadron.]
> 
> Never knew about this story reference ac kashif tufail



Crash them and send the debris back



HRK said:


> Zarwan yaar basi khabar hai .....
> 
> American donated/lend some of helicopters & Cessna aircrafts for Anti Narcotics Operations, now they are demanding it back as arm twisting tactic .... but negotiations are underway nothing is final as of yet

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## Inception-06

HRK said:


> Zarwan yaar basi khabar hai .....
> 
> American donated/lend some of helicopters & Cessna aircrafts for Anti Narcotics Operations, now they are demanding it back as arm twisting tactic .... but negotiations are underway nothing is final as of yet



that was 7 years ago !


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## fatman17

python-000 said:


> so when we are going to get our *Z-10's *did we order some of these ???


No


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## HRK

Ulla said:


> that was 7 years ago !



7 years back they donated/sponsored the 50th Squadron Air Wing of Ministry of Interior under the Pakistan Border Security Program*, *now they are asking to return the assets 




https://2009-2017.state.gov/documents/organization/81446.pdf

since 2013 Pakistan streamed line the access of US personals (claimed to be government staff) to US funded facilities additionally to the flow of information as well, which according to Americans diminish the previous level of cooperation but somehow both the sides remain engage in bilateral cooperation but now it seems US want to part away Anti-Narcotics program in Pakistan .....



Thorough Pro said:


> Crash them and send the debris back


we can't crash these many machines at once (14 Huey-II & 3 Cessna with EO pod)

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## Khafee

HRK said:


> 7 years back they donated/sponsored the 50th Squadron Air Wing of Ministry of Interior under the Pakistan Border Security Program*, *now they are asking to return the assets
> View attachment 428436
> 
> https://2009-2017.state.gov/documents/organization/81446.pdf
> 
> since 2013 Pakistan streamed line the access of US personals (claimed to be government staff) to US funded facilities additionally to the flow of information as well, which according to Americans diminish the previous level of cooperation but somehow both the sides remain engage in bilateral cooperation but now it seems US want to part away Anti-Narcotics program in Pakistan .....
> 
> 
> we can't crash these many machines at once (14 Huey-II & 3 Cessna with EO pod)


Learn something from Pakistan Railways.

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## Ahmet Pasha

What?? How to become a dysfunctional institution u mean???


Khafee said:


> Learn something from Pakistan Railways.

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## Khafee

Ahmet Pasha said:


> What?? How to become a dysfunctional institution u mean???


You went too far. 

How to ruin perfectly good engines, with poor maintenance.

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## Ahmet Pasha

In reality waht US Israhell and India couldnt do back then. They r trying their asses off to do now. There is a very very strong rhetoric of blatant lies against Muslims and especially against Pakistan. And all the sifarishi elected leaders are openly mocked in American public. I know cuz I have seen it with my own gunahgar eyes.


Khafee said:


> You went too far.
> 
> How to ruin perfectly good engines, with poor maintenance.

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## fatman17

Bell Completes First AH-1Z Vipers For Pakistan Army
Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
AMARLILLO, Texas—Bell Helicopter has completed assembly of the first two AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters for the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps.


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## fatman17

Bell Completes First AH-1Z Vipers For Pakistan Army https://t.co/20q07kpSjR JD @AviationWeek https://t.co/CfNbF9xdKr

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## hassan1



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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> Bell Completes First AH-1Z Vipers For Pakistan Army https://t.co/20q07kpSjR JD @AviationWeek https://t.co/CfNbF9xdKr


not ours until landed in paksitan

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## Mrc

Imran Khan said:


> not ours until landed in paksitan




if these deliveries are stopped now.... Pakistan should ban USA as weapons supplier and also block the land and air routes into Afghanistan... till issue of finances is settled

also immediate orders for timely delivery of z 10s and / T 129 Should be made

I mean enough is enough

constant black mailing... while them selves keeping TTP as pet rabid dog sheltered in Afghanistan.... we need to grow a pair... seriously


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## Imran Khan

Mrc said:


> if these deliveries are stopped now.... Pakistan should ban USA as weapons supplier and also block the land and air routes into Afghanistan... till issue of finances is settled
> 
> also immediate orders for timely delivery of z 10s and / T 129 Should be made
> 
> I mean enough is enough
> 
> constant black mailing... while them selves keeping TTP as pet rabid dog sheltered in Afghanistan.... we need to grow a pair... seriously


 lets be honest here we have no balls to do so

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## blinder

Regarding the 14 Hueys and 3 Cessna 208, I believe these are nominally property of the US Department of State. So I can imagine that they can withdraw them. That would be a silly thing to do though, as the Americans perceive that it is needed to step up efforts in the border area with Afghanistan, rather than diminish it.
However, they have the muscle to be the school bully...


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## fatman17

Just a nice picture

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## python-000

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 429463
> 
> Just a nice picture


whats the point to showing of *KA-52 *pic on this forum ???


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## fatman17

python-000 said:


> whats the point to showing of *KA-52 *pic on this forum ???


And your problem with it please.


----------



## ejaz007

Mrc said:


> if these deliveries are stopped now.... Pakistan should ban USA as weapons supplier and also block the land and air routes into Afghanistan... till issue of finances is settled
> 
> also immediate orders for timely delivery of z 10s and / T 129 Should be made
> 
> I mean enough is enough
> 
> constant black mailing... while them selves keeping TTP as pet rabid dog sheltered in Afghanistan.... we need to grow a pair... seriously



The alternate would be to impose excessively high taxes and duties for the US/NATO supplies going into Afghanistan.

In this way they will be forced to stop sending material through Pakistan or if they continue we make money.


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## python-000

fatman17 said:


> And your problem with it please.


bro, I have no problem with this just supposed & making some expectation in my mind to see them in PAA there for i asked.


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## fatman17

python-000 said:


> bro, I have no problem with this just supposed & making some expectation in my mind to see them in PAA there for i asked.


Sirjee just a nice picture


----------



## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/916266238145368065Watch

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well from Pakistan's Prespective the Super Cobra helicopters are not quite fruitful purchase we are better off to just sell these to Saudi Arabia perhaps for exchange for $$$





------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origional Story
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As per the State Department notification to the Congress, Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), and 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers.

It also included 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, and 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems.

Other military hardware were 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimised Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.

The total estimated cost is *USD 952 million.*


*Can we sell these to friendly country ? for Cash Sell it to Turkey or Saudi Arabia for 1 Billion and get cash Deposited in Pakistan account *



We would invest 100 Million in improvements for KAMRA 
100 Million for R&D on Thunder
100 Million for F22P frigate 
200 Million for Vehicles for Troops on ground (HIT improvements)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
We would invest 500 Million in T-129 Turkish Helicopter program 

Seems like great plan , Sell all 15 Cobras and instead get cash and invest that according to our defence needs


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## Army research

From combat aircraft magazine, also does any member know where the attaining new heights book can be found cheaply ? In the UK it costs 40£


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## ziaulislam

Zulus sale to me doesn't make sense..no idea why would army endanger so much tax payer money

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## fatman17

Army research said:


> View attachment 430195
> 
> From combat aircraft magazine, also does any member know where the attaining new heights book can be found cheaply ? In the UK it costs 40£


Information is incorrect. The PAF book is out of stock now.

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## Army research

fatman17 said:


> Information is incorrect. The PAF book is out of stock now.


Is there no other vendor besides Amazon ?


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## hassan1

Army research said:


> Is there no other vendor besides Amazon ?


http://shop.keypublishing.com/produ...559/Pakistan Air Force: Attaining New Heights



fatman17 said:


> Information is incorrect. The PAF book is out of stock now.


http://shop.keypublishing.com/produ...559/Pakistan Air Force: Attaining New Heights

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## Yerusalem 4880 Kms

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well from Pakistan's Prespective the Super Cobra helicopters are not quite fruitful purchase we are better off to just sell these to Saudi Arabia perhaps for exchange for $$$
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Origional Story
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> As per the State Department notification to the Congress, Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), and 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers.
> 
> It also included 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, and 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems.
> 
> Other military hardware were 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimised Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.
> 
> The total estimated cost is *USD 952 million.*
> 
> 
> *Can we sell these to friendly country ? for Cash Sell it to Turkey or Saudi Arabia for 1 Billion and get cash Deposited in Pakistan account *
> 
> 
> 
> We would invest 100 Million in improvements for KAMRA
> 100 Million for R&D on Thunder
> 100 Million for F22P frigate
> 200 Million for Vehicles for Troops on ground (HIT improvements)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> We would invest 500 Million in T-129 Turkish Helicopter program
> 
> Seems like great plan , Sell all 15 Cobras and instead get cash and invest that according to our defence needs


First AH-Z is quite capable machine and we had experience to operate and maintain Cobras secondly we can't sell any US product without their approval we can just cancel the order but in that case money would not be returned since 70% of money from coalition support fund rest would be consider fine or cost to build few which will not return. So basically cancelling the AH-Z not an option.


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## fatman17

Army research said:


> Is there no other vendor besides Amazon ?


If you know some PAF chap, it can be purchased cheaply from PAF Book Club.


----------



## hassan1

fatman17 said:


> If you know some PAF chap, it can be purchased cheaply from PAF Book Club.


NOT available in PAF book Club


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## Windjammer

*Ammo for the mini gun being loaded on a Bell UH-1H, 
As i said elsewhere, Mini guns are very much operational with PAA.*

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## Ahmet Pasha

Windjammer said:


> *Ammo for the mini gun being loaded on a Bell UH-1H,
> As i said elsewhere, Mini guns are very much operational with PAA.*
> 
> View attachment 430459



Seen this bird before on BLA terrorist videos.


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## fatman17

Still No pics of Mi35 in Pakistan livery. They are supposedly delivered.

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## Rafi

fatman17 said:


> Still No pics of Mi35 in Pakistan livery. They are supposedly delivered.



Tactics and familiarity process ongoing. Induction ceremony being planned. Eventually numbers being purchased is around 25 will be used as Airborne Fighting Vehicle by LCB, Spec Forces.

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## mingle

Rafi said:


> Tactics and familiarity process ongoing. Induction ceremony being planned. Eventually numbers being purchased is around 25 will be used as Airborne Fighting Vehicle by LCB, Spec Forces.


Good News as always from Rafi sb .Sir we not looking more cobra 's and Z10 after T129 gonna manufacture local ?I guess like jf17 T129 will be our work horse.

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## Rafi

mingle said:


> Good News as always from Rafi sb .Sir we not looking more cobra 's and Z10 after T129 gonna manufacture local ?I guess like jf17 T129 will be our work horse.



Yep. Hopefully good times ahead

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## HAIDER

Windjammer said:


> *Ammo for the mini gun being loaded on a Bell UH-1H,
> As i said elsewhere, Mini guns are very much operational with PAA.*
> 
> View attachment 430459


No shitzz PA got gatling on helo..


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## fatman17

Rafi said:


> Tactics and familiarity process ongoing. Induction ceremony being planned. Eventually numbers being purchased is around 25 will be used as Airborne Fighting Vehicle by LCB, Spec Forces.


You're talking the future here. I'm just talking pictures to confirm the purchase.

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## Rafi

fatman17 said:


> You're talking the future here. I'm just talking pictures to confirm the purchase.



I think they want to wait for the induction ceremony for pics.

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## fatman17

Rafi said:


> I think they want to wait for the induction ceremony for pics.



maybe so but too hush hush for 4 helos.


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## fatman17

New chapter in Pak Russian relations.
Pak is testing Russian Ansat utility heli in harsh conditions, trials will complete by end of November https://t.co/Vgiwqr7ubK

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## fatman17

Manufacturing T 129S Chopper parts: Pakistan seeks $1.5b credit line from Turkey





Manufacturing T 129S Chopper parts: Pakistan seeks $1.5b credit line from Turkey

October 30, 2017

ISLAMABAD: A credit line of $1.5 billion from the Turkish government for manufacturing parts of T129 Turkish attack helicopters in Pakistan was a key attraction for Pakistani negotiators in recent days in sealing the crucial deal.

Pakistan has requested the financial arrangement from Turkey for manufacturing spare parts of the T129s choppers and the Turkish government is working to allocate $1.5 billion in credit , sources said.

The Pakistan Army has selected the T129 attack helicopters to replace its aging AH-1F/S Cobra attack helicopters and to complement the Bell Helicopter AH-1Z Viper. Besides exploring the credit to back the deal, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has also offered Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) parts manufacturing work for the T129 choppers.

According to the sources, Prime Minister Shahid Khaqan Abbasi during his recent visit to Turkey , where he participated in the D-8 conference, interacted with senior TAI officials and pushed the process to finalize the deal, the sources said.

According to the sources, negotiations with the Turkish authorities have entered the final phase. In 2016, the Pakistan Army evaluated the T129 and the Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation Z-10 to complement the Bell Helicopter AH-1Z Viper.

Pakistan was overwhelmed by the T129’s hot-and-high performance and ferry range. Besides integrating PAC into the T129 supply channel (for spare parts), the programme could also lead to bilateral collaboration in avionics, optronics and munitions development.

According to the sources, if the deal materializes, the Pakistan Army, the Pakistan Navy and the Pakistan Air Force would use the helicopters to meet its growing needs. On the other hand, Pakistan has a signed a deal to sell its Super Mushak trainer aircraft to Turkey.

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## fatman17

*TAI begins development of ATAK 2 heavy attack helicopter*
*Lale Sariibrahimoglu* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
02 November 2017





First image of ATAK 2 heavy attack helicopter. Source: TAI
Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) announced on 31 October that it has begun domestic development of the ATAK 2 attack helicopter.

TAI began the project to build the six-tonne ATAK 2 domestically without foreign help based on technical knowledge and operational experience gained with the T129 attack helicopter currently produced under licence from Leonardo, the company said on its website.

The ATAK 2 will be bigger and heavier than the T129.


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## fatman17

At least 4prototypes (#632, 633, 635, 636) are beingtested at CFTE. The latest rumor claimed that the WZ-10 turboshaft engine has been tested onboard a Z-20. Additional variantsmay have been planned, including ASW and SAR. The latest rumor (June 2017) claimed that the first batch of few has entered the service with PLA.
- Last update 11/6/17


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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> *TAI begins development of ATAK 2 heavy attack helicopter*
> *Lale Sariibrahimoglu* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 02 November 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First image of ATAK 2 heavy attack helicopter. Source: TAI
> Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) announced on 31 October that it has begun domestic development of the ATAK 2 attack helicopter.
> 
> TAI began the project to build the six-tonne ATAK 2 domestically without foreign help based on technical knowledge and operational experience gained with the T129 attack helicopter currently produced under licence from Leonardo, the company said on its website.
> 
> The ATAK 2 will be bigger and heavier than the T129.



Why doesn't PA look in to this heli looks more like what we need ?


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> Why doesn't PA look in to this heli looks more like what we need ?


Still in prototype stage. I'm sure they will examine at some point in the future

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## Talon

S300

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## fatman17



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## Arsalan

Hodor said:


> S300
> 
> View attachment 435927
> 
> View attachment 435928


Our primary trainer helicopter - Schweizer S300-C 
We recently got our staff trained to refurbish these in Pakistan.

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## Talon

Arsalan said:


> Our primary trainer helicopter - Schweizer S300-C
> We recently got our staff trained to refurbish these in Pakistan.


So thats why they had a flypast at Rahwali?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hodor said:


> So thats why they had a flypast at Rahwali?


Most of em are based in Rahwali Cantt.


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## Arsalan

Hodor said:


> So thats why they had a flypast at Rahwali?


No sure. The staff was trained only recently and i am sure no refurbishment task could have been completed in this time. The fly past must have been more of a routine exercise since these are trainer helicopters and are based in Army aviation School - Rahwali/Gujranwala.

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## fatman17

Major General Nasir D Shah, Commander, Pakistan Army Aviation


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## fatman17

Pakistani Prime Minister Shahid Khaqan Abbasi, during his recent visit to Ankara, personally participated in a test flight of a T-129 attack helicopter manufactured by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). Pakistan is thinking of spending $1.5 billion to replace its worn-out Bell AH-1F and AH-1S Cobra attack helicopters with 30 T-129s from Turkey.

Technology transfer from TAI to Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) would allow for joint production. If Pakistan approves the deal, and it is expected to by July, this will be the biggest single sale made by the Turkish defense industry. Also, Pakistan is closely interested in Hurkus trainer aircraft, also manufactured by TAI, and Anka drones.



Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...yes-on-south-asian-markets.html#ixzz4yhAaFOaP

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## fatman17

Pakistan likely to sign $1.5 Billion T-129 Attack helicopter deal with Turkey by July 2018. It will involve "Transfer of Technology" from TAI to Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) & will involve "joint production". It will be biggest single sale by Turkish Defence Industry. https://t.co/stKYqNNUoK

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## HannibalBarca

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan likely to sign $1.5 Billion T-129 Attack helicopter deal with Turkey by July 2018. It will involve "Transfer of Technology" from TAI to Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) & will involve "joint production". It will be biggest single sale by Turkish Defence Industry. https://t.co/stKYqNNUoK


july 2018... Why? waiting an alien signature from outer space to land next year?
Signatories will rise from their tombs in july 2018?


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## Khafee

HannibalBarca said:


> july 2018... Why? waiting an alien signature from outer space to land next year?
> Signatories will rise from their tombs in july 2018?


Contract negotiations take time.

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## Advocate Pakistan

@Khafee is right



HannibalBarca said:


> july 2018... Why? waiting an alien signature from outer space to land next year?
> Signatories will rise from their tombs in july 2018?



Maybe even later than July 2018. The Government tenure will end on June 5th.
Elections would take 1.5-3 months during which the caretaker government is unlikely to sign such a deal. The new government will assume office by September so you are approaching the end of 2018. I hope it finalizes before election. We are already running late by standards of my patience.

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## fatman17

Khafee said:


> Contract negotiations take time.


Especially with the turks. Very slow.


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## python-000

fatman17 said:


> Pakistani Prime Minister Shahid Khaqan Abbasi, during his recent visit to Ankara, personally participated in a test flight of a T-129 attack helicopter manufactured by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). *Pakistan is thinking of spending $1.5 billion* to replace its worn-out Bell AH-1F and AH-1S Cobra attack helicopters with 30 T-129s from Turkey.
> 
> Technology transfer from TAI to Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) would allow for joint production. If Pakistan approves the deal, and it is expected to by July, this will be the biggest single sale made by the Turkish defense industry. Also, Pakistan is closely interested in Hurkus trainer aircraft, also manufactured by TAI, and Anka drones.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...yes-on-south-asian-markets.html#ixzz4yhAaFOaP


still thinking 

and dose someone tell me about what is the status and updates of *Z-10's* in *PAA*


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## Ahmet Pasha

Its gone probably forever!?


python-000 said:


> still thinking
> 
> and dose someone tell me about what is the status and updates of *Z-10's* in *PAA*


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## python-000

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Its gone probably forever!?


No No No it can not be


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## fatman17

python-000 said:


> still thinking
> 
> and dose someone tell me about what is the status and updates of *Z-10's* in *PAA*


Rejected


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## fatman17

Italian firm Leonardo is looking for additional partner nations to take part in its new attack helicopter program and successor to Italy’s AW129 Mangusta fleet. To be known as the AW249, the new helicopter is being financed under a $515 million contract awarded by Rome in January of this year which aims to see its 48 Mangusta’s phased out from 2025. But the firm are claiming that the helicopter “is not just for Italy.” Speaking to Flight Global, chief commercial officer Lorenzo Mariani said “It is a basis for collaboration – we believe that other nations can join this project.”

Interesting news since Pakistan has a strong defence collaboration with Italy and Leonardo.

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## Ahmet Pasha

A good read
http://aviationintel.com/did-you-know-that-china-flies-uh-60-blackhawks/

I think this is linked to ATAK2


fatman17 said:


> Italian firm Leonardo is looking for additional partner nations to take part in its new attack helicopter program and successor to Italy’s AW129 Mangusta fleet. To be known as the AW249, the new helicopter is being financed under a $515 million contract awarded by Rome in January of this year which aims to see its 48 Mangusta’s phased out from 2025. But the firm are claiming that the helicopter “is not just for Italy.” Speaking to Flight Global, chief commercial officer Lorenzo Mariani said “It is a basis for collaboration – we believe that other nations can join this project.”
> 
> Interesting news since Pakistan has a strong defence collaboration with Italy and Leonardo.


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## Windjammer



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## Ahmet Pasha

Guys my querry isnt being answered in relevant thread.

A friend is asking that if he graduates from pma and is commissioned in a support role service eg logistics or service corps. Can he still volunteer for SSG. Also do you have to volunteer for SSG or do you get recommended by your CO. Finally is there an age limit for SSG? @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER @fatman17 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @django

He also wants an idea on salary structure for commissioned officers by rank.

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## django

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Guys my querry isnt being answered in relevant thread.
> 
> A friend is asking that if he graduates from pma and is commissioned in a support role service eg logistics or service corps. Can he still volunteer for SSG. Also do you have to volunteer for SSG or do you get recommended by your CO. Finally is there an age limit for SSG? @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER @fatman17 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @django
> 
> He also wants an idea on salary structure for commissioned officers by rank.


Your friend will need to have spent at a minimum 2 years in the army, this is a prerequisite for any applicant.Kudos Ahmet.

Hazrat @Zarvan @Maarkhoor

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## Ahmet Pasha

Thanks dude also if anyone can provide a rough idea for salary structure would be nice.


django said:


> Your friend will need to have spent at a minimum 2 years in the army, this is a prerequisite for any applicant.Kudos Ahmet.
> 
> Hazrat @Zarvan @Maarkhoor

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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Guys my querry isnt being answered in relevant thread.
> 
> A friend is asking that if he graduates from pma and is commissioned in a support role service eg logistics or service corps. Can he still volunteer for SSG. Also do you have to volunteer for SSG or do you get recommended by your CO. Finally is there an age limit for SSG? @Path-Finder @DESERT FIGHTER @fatman17 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @django
> 
> He also wants an idea on salary structure for commissioned officers by rank.


Yes he can SSG themselves will come after he and others have served at least few years in Army to ask for who wants to join SSG and than if he passes initial tests he would go ahead other wise not

My Mamo was serving in Artillery when SSG guys came he volunteered passed the tests and than became SSG

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## Ahmet Pasha

Zarvan to the rescue 
Thanks bro


Zarvan said:


> Yes he can SSG themselves will come after he and others have served at least few years in Army to ask for who wants to join SSG and than if he passes initial tests he would go ahead other wise not
> 
> My Mamo was serving in Artillery when SSG guys came he volunteered passed the tests and than became SSG

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## fatman17

PAA lost and found deptt. 4 Mi35M lost .

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 438243
> 
> PAA lost and found deptt. 4 Mi35M lost .


This one is south african upgrade... looks badass.

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## fatman17

Russian Mi17 rigged for ISR

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## Maarkhoor

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 438493
> 
> Russian Mi17 rigged for ISR


Is this Pakistani Mi-17? because in background I saw banners in Chinese.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 438493
> 
> Russian Mi17 rigged for ISR


Chinese

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## Windjammer

Pakistan Army Aviation: Formation of Sikorsky S300c helicopters.

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## fatman17

Pakistan to Begin Financial Negotiations for Turkish T129 Helicopter Purchase

Our Bureau10:50 AM, November 27, 2017






Pakistan’s potential purchase of Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T129 ATAK attack helicopters has reached the financial negotiation stage.
“It is in the pipeline … [the process is] 90 percent complete,” and that the matter proceeded to financial proposals, which are being examined by Pakistan, Pakistan’s Minister of Defence Production (MoDP) Rana Tanveer Hussain was quoted as saying by Quwa Sunday.
Rana Tanveer Hussain was an official two-day visit (24-26 November) to Turkey in a bid to review ongoing bilateral defence programs.
On November 25, the MoDP informed Turkey’s state-owned new agency Anadolu Agency that Pakistan’s potential purchase of Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T129 ATAK attack helicopters and four MILGEM (Milli Gemi: National Warship) naval vessels were major subjects of discussion on his current visit.
Pakistan selected the T129 ATAK helicopter over the Chinese Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) Z-10. Both helicopters’ manufacturers were in the race to supply the Pakistan Army with a light attack helicopter in excess of 50 units with an initial negotiation involving 30 choppers. Three Z-10 helicopter gunship has been undergoing user trials since 2015 while the Pakistan Army put the T129 ATAK through rigorous hot-and-high performance tests starting June 2016.
At IDEF 2017 show in Turkey in May, TAI and PAC had signed a memorandum-of-understanding (MoU) followed by the visit to Pakistan by TAI chief Temel Kotil, who reiterated TAI’s commitment to enable PAC to manufacture parts for the T129 and possibly assemble T129 ATAKs.
The T129 is an upgraded variant of the AgustaWestland A129 Mangusta with Turkish companies such as Aselsan, Roketsan and Havelsan having developed weapons and subsystems for the chopper.

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## fatman17

Just a nice picture

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## fatman17



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## fatman17



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## Stealth

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 441289
> View attachment 441290
> View attachment 441291
> View attachment 441292
> View attachment 441293



Except last, rest of pictures taken by my friend Hamza

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## fatman17

Stealth said:


> Except last, rest of pictures taken by my friend Hamza


True


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## python-000

there are some rumors on social media that Pakistan recently received a new bunch of Z10's from China is that True ???


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## fatman17

python-000 said:


> there are some rumors on social media that Pakistan recently received a new bunch of Z10's from China is that True ???


No


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## fatman17

Z19E light armed recce


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## Readerdefence

With millimetre radar

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## Incog_nito

For PAA; Z-10P will be a better option instead of Z-19 along with ATAK in good numbers.


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## Shabi1

The Z-19 is a scout helicopter, it flies along with groups of Z-10s to designate targets.
For scout role PA has recently replaced it's Bell-206's with AS550 Fennec's. So the Z-19 doesnt have any role in PA fleet at the moment.

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## fatman17

Shabi1 said:


> The Z-19 is a scout helicopter, it flies along with groups of Z-10s to designate targets.
> For scout role PA has recently replaced it's Bell-206's with AS550 Fennec's. So the Z-19 doesnt have any role in PA fleet at the moment.


Wasn't advocating the Z19E, just to inform our colleagues the options available from China.

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## Readerdefence

Shabi1 said:


> The Z-19 is a scout helicopter, it flies along with groups of Z-10s to designate targets.
> For scout role PA has recently replaced it's Bell-206's with AS550 Fennec's. So the Z-19 doesnt have any role in PA fleet at the moment.


Hi we can use it as a scout with millimetre radar option as I’m not sure Americans will give this 
Options with the helicopters we are getting from them 
Your input will be appreciated 
Thx


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## khanasifm

No news/pics on mi-35 or ah-1z yet ??


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## Shabi1

Readerdefence said:


> Hi we can use it as a scout with millimetre radar option as I’m not sure Americans will give this
> Options with the helicopters we are getting from them
> Your input will be appreciated
> Thx



Millimeter radar is good for hunting armor, Pakistan's attack helicopters are primarily in use for counter terrorism operations, plus Pakistan has AESA AWACs which can track both ground and air targets in the same time. 
So eventually Pakistan should get millimeter radar capability on it's helicopters but for now its not an urgency. The Turks are working on a Millimeter radar add on for the T-129, Chinese are working on it for the WZ-10 and the AH-1Z can carry it under its wing pylon if needed.

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## python-000

Oxair Online said:


> For PAA; Z-10P will be a better option instead of Z-19 along with ATAK in good numbers.


You mean this

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## Falcon26

Readerdefence said:


> View attachment 441846
> 
> With millimetre radar



Beautiful bird. Couple dozen of these for the frontier corps on the Western Border will be very useful. In times of war on the east, can be called up for CAS against armor division. Very useful bird.


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## fatman17

Pakistan Army AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters will be fitted with A/A49E-7(v4) gun turrets as part of a wider US Navy contract that has also tasked General Dynamics with providing the turrets to the US Marine Corps. The total value of the contract amounts to $9.06 million, with approximately $3.1 million of that earmarked for the Pakistani purchase. Pakistan will receive the turrets by August 2021, where they will be fitted with the M197 20mm cannon. Other equipment ordered by Islamabad for the helicopters—15 of which were approved for sale by the US State Department in 2015—include the Thales TopOwl helmet-mounted display (HMD) system, Lockheed Martin’s AN/AAQ-30 electro-optical and infrared turrets, BAE Systems’ AN/ALE-47 chaff/flare dispensers, Northrop Grumman’s AN/APR-39C(v2) radar-warning receivers (RWR), and AN/AAR-47 missile warning receivers from Orbital ATK.

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## Readerdefence

Shabi1 said:


> Millimeter radar is good for hunting armor, Pakistan's attack helicopters are primarily in use for counter terrorism operations, plus Pakistan has AESA AWACs which can track both ground and air targets in the same time.
> So eventually Pakistan should get millimeter radar capability on it's helicopters but for now its not an urgency. The Turks are working on a Millimeter radar add on for the T-129, Chinese are working on it for the WZ-10 and the AH-1Z can carry it under its wing pylon if needed.


Hi thx for your input but I’m doubtful about ah1z will be having millimetre radar for Pakistan 
We have aesa radar capable awacs but during a full fledge conflict they all will be much busy 
And committed more towards PAF & PN 
So I’m not advocating to get z19 but we have a vast desert terrain and our weakest point is in the thar desert area for stopping the Indian advancement let’s hope we have some limited number of dedicated for their tank columns 
Thx


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## fatman17

Meet the new generation of Mi-171E heavy-lift multirole helicopter developed by Ulan-Ude helicopter plant. It has composite main rotor, X-Shaped tail rotor, transmission, drive-shaft, Saphire 5G APU, VR-17 gearbox, VK-2500PS-03 embedded in Mi-171A2 made by #Russia|n Helicopters. https://t.co/2UvMlPJwis

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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> Meet the new generation of Mi-171E *heavy-lift* multirole helicopter developed by Ulan-Ude helicopter plant. It has composite main rotor, X-Shaped tail rotor, transmission, drive-shaft, Saphire 5G APU, VR-17 gearbox, VK-2500PS-03 embedded in Mi-171A2 made by #Russia|n Helicopters. https://t.co/2UvMlPJwis
> View attachment 442248



Its medium lift.

Heavy lift are Mi-6, Mi-26, CH-53, CH-47 etc

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## Ahmet Pasha

They are trying to make the most of this platform  #marketing


fatman17 said:


> Meet the new generation of Mi-171E heavy-lift multirole helicopter developed by Ulan-Ude helicopter plant. It has composite main rotor, X-Shaped tail rotor, transmission, drive-shaft, Saphire 5G APU, VR-17 gearbox, VK-2500PS-03 embedded in Mi-171A2 made by #Russia|n Helicopters. https://t.co/2UvMlPJwis
> View attachment 442248


----------



## Signalian

Ahmet Pasha said:


> They are trying to make the most of this platform  #marketing


This version has two main benefits ignoring the technical jargon.

1. It can operate in very very low climate.
2. Its designed to be converted to any given task in minimum possible time. e.g from plain transport to SAR

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## Ahmet Pasha

Yeah but IMHO these birds are good for work horse, troop carrier and lift roles. They are somewhat lacking in armaments and maneuverability. You cannot go guns blazing with this bird. I may be wrong but I have never seen a PAA mi171 with machineguns or miniguns like I have seen hueys or bell412 with machine guns and miniguns. 

If all 3 service arms merge their requirements then we can either build our own or do a jv that would be very profitable in long run.


Signalian said:


> This version has two main benefits ignoring the technical jargon.
> 
> 1. It can operate in very very low climate.
> 2. Its designed to be converted to any given task in minimum possible time. e.g from plain transport to SAR

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## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Yeah but IMHO these birds are good for work horse, troop carrier and lift roles. They are somewhat lacking in armaments and maneuverability. You cannot go guns blazing with this bird. I may be wrong but I have never seen a PAA mi171 with machineguns or miniguns like I have seen hueys or bell412 with machine guns and miniguns.
> 
> If all 3 service arms merge their requirements then we can either build our own or do a jv that would be very profitable in long run.



that's why we eagerly await the Mi35s

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## fatman17

at Zahedan Airport, Iran

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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 443433
> 
> at Zahedan Airport, Iran



What's the bird doing in Iran ?

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## AMG_12

TOPGUN said:


> What's the bird doing in Iran ?


Seems like a ferry flight from Russia. The chopper looks like it has recently been upgraded considering those auxiliary fuel tanks and the fresh paint scheme.

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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> What's the bird doing in Iran ?


Border security meeting

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## Talon

*Unconfirmed:*
Mi35s to be inducted at Khalid Av Base tomorrow..

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## Sulman Badshah

Hodor said:


> *Unconfirmed:*
> Mi35s to be inducted at Khalid Av Base tomorrow..


As per me they will be mainly used in ANF operations ...

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## fatman17

Hodor said:


> *Unconfirmed:*
> Mi35s to be inducted at Khalid Av Base tomorrow..


Been waiting for a long time. Khalid Aviation Base located where.


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## fatman17

Sulman Badshah said:


> As per me they will be mainly used in ANF operations ...


True plus other tasks

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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> Been waiting for a long time. Khalid Aviation Base located where.


Quetta..

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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> Been waiting for a long time. Khalid Aviation Base located where.


quetta


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## Talon



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## Rahil khan

found this on instagram. First few going under trials in USA.

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## fatman17

Rahil khan said:


> View attachment 445111
> found this on instagram. First few going under trials in USA.


Supposed to be delivered in Dec17. Guess they are running late?


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## Ahmet Pasha

Or Trump and his devils have other plans?!


fatman17 said:


> Supposed to be delivered in Dec17. Guess they are running late?

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## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Or Trump and his devils have other plans?!


Yep, the paint job can easily be changed.

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## fatman17

#PakistanArmy AH1Z Viper (Serial 786) undergoing tests in United States by Bell Helicopter. Few months ago snap of same newly manufactured unit in hanger was surfaced. Apparently Three units will be delivered to Pakistan in early 2018. https://t.co/ALdJxoiFIQ


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## Windjammer

What are these helis in PAA, the only use i can think of is scouting.


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## Army research

Windjammer said:


> What are these helis in PAA, the only use i can think of is scouting.
> 
> View attachment 446606


High altitude, light cargo , ammo drop and scout


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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> What are these helis in PAA, the only use i can think of is scouting.
> 
> View attachment 446606


Sikorsky 300 series
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/field-of-dreams.314142/

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## AMG_12

Army research said:


> High altitude, light cargo , ammo drop and scout


They're purely for training purposes and only operated by Aviation School Rahwali. Fennecs and Lamas are deployed for High Altitude, Light Cargo and Scouting roles.

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## Army research

Game.Invade said:


> They're purely for training purposes and only operated by Aviation School Rahwali. Fennecs and Lamas are deployed for High Altitude, Light Cargo and Scouting roles.


My bad I mistakes them for the other sorry

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## Sulman Badshah

Windjammer said:


> What are these helis in PAA, the only use i can think of is scouting.
> 
> View attachment 446606


training mainly ... fennec is being used in scouting

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## syed_yusuf

Any news on mi35 induction ceremony? Is Pakistan going for more examples ? New or rebuild ?

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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> Any news on mi35 induction ceremony? Is Pakistan going for more examples ? New or rebuild ?


What induction ceremony? !?!?!


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> What are these helis in PAA, the only use i can think of is scouting.
> 
> View attachment 446606



pilot training


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## muhammadali233

Army research said:


> High altitude, light cargo , ammo drop and scout


You are mixing it up with 315B/AL II
this is a Schweizer 300 used for training young PAA pilots in gujranwala

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## Windjammer



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## Ahmet Pasha

This-- kis pagal ne kaha tha Zulu order karo???

"The value of suspended funds totals approximately two billion dollars, and includes military equipment that Pakistan ordered in 2013 but has not yet received."

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## Windjammer

PAA Mashak in new two tone Grey colour scheme. 
Looking at the registration, this is an over 40 year old air frame, that alone tells us about it's sturdiness and reliability.

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## BERKEKHAN2

Windjammer said:


> PAA Mashak in new two tone Grey colour scheme.
> Looking at the registration, this is an over 40 year old air frame, that alone tells us about it's sturdiness and reliability.
> 
> View attachment 448688


Great


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Depending on how the US aid issue develops, this could potentially scuttle the T129 deal. Basically, the USMC will sell-off its AH-1Ws, and unlike the old AH-1F/S, this does have some commonality with the AH-1Z. If Pakistan and the US come to a new deal on aid (e.g. the US only giving money and equipment for specific US-defined ops in the Tribal Areas), Pakistan could look at buying ~30 AH-1W along with the 12-15 AH-1Z. @Oscar @Horus

http://www.janes.com/article/77142/usmc-supercobras-to-be-sold-off-to-international-customers

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Depending on how the US aid issue develops, this could potentially scuttle the T129 deal. Basically, the USMC will sell-off its AH-1Ws, and unlike the old AH-1F/S, this does have some commonality with the AH-1Z. If Pakistan and the US come to a new deal on aid (e.g. the US only giving money and equipment for specific US-defined ops in the Tribal Areas), Pakistan could look at buying ~30 AH-1W along with the 12-15 AH-1Z. @Oscar @Horus
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/77142/usmc-supercobras-to-be-sold-off-to-international-customers


I see the logic but do you really want to go down that route now with US-Pak relations being the way they are and the Orange man at the helm of affairs. I know the A129s are expensive but with the offsets and the possibility of establishing local assembly facilities and initiate PACs forays into Helo manufacturing, do you realistically think it is still such a great deal.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> I see the logic but do you really want to go down that route now with US-Pak relations being the way they are and the Orange man at the helm of affairs. I know the A129s are expensive but with the offsets and the possibility of establishing local assembly facilities and initiate PACs forays into Helo manufacturing, do you realistically think it is still such a great deal.
> A


I was just making an observation, not so much a viewpoint. I'd rather do anything to actually build our industry. But seeing Pakistan's habit of eschewing ambitious stuff for off-the-shelf US equipment (e.g. basically every country on earth has spoken to South Africa or Turkey to bring a MRAP production line, we're still buying MaxxPros), I'd also keep an eye on this too.

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## Kompromat

I wouldn't put too much trust in the Yankees on any given day. @Quwa

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Ahmet Pasha said:


> This-- kis pagal ne kaha tha Zulu order karo???
> 
> "The value of suspended funds totals approximately two billion dollars, and includes military equipment that Pakistan ordered in 2013 but has not yet received."




They dangled this carrot since 2007 , that in 2014 we will get some helicopters and god know how many million or billion dollar worth of support they got since from Pakistan for free

FULL 10 Years were wasted to wait for these so call choppers while India modernized their Helicopter fleet with Apache , and then also finished their Light Helicopter platform to develop a ground force advantage

And our military was so gullible to say ok we will get these zulu and not order *75 Z-10* from China








Since 2005-2006 we made 0% effort to get gunships even of secondary quality

Gunships are like bread and butter of battlefield you can't go into ground mission with no gunship support

Every time we were about to get Z-10 , they pull the string and then people start talking

"Oh yar we are getting those ZULUs in 2014 .... why waste funding on different helicopter?"
"Oh those ZULUs are top of line , we waste fund on other platforms?"
"Oh don't bother with other platform , we will have so many helicopter platforms?"

Reality .. we got severe shortage of actual gunships

If we had a deal with China for Z-10 , every year inducting 4-5 Choppers we would have had a healthy fleet of 75 Gunships between 2005-2017

And that Zulu Carrot kept dangling from 2014 to 2018

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## araz

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> They danged this carrot since 2007 , that in 2014 we will get some helicopters and god know how many million or billion dollar worth of support they got since from Pakistan for free
> 
> FULL 10 Years were wasted to wait for these so call choppers while India modernized their Helicopter fleet with Apache , and then also finished their Light Helicopter platform to develop a ground force advantage
> 
> And our military was so gullible to say ok we will get these zulu and not order 50 Z-10 from China
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since 2005-2006 we made 0% effort to get gunships even of secondary quality
> 
> Gunships are like bread and butter of battlefield you can't go into ground mission with no gunship support
> 
> Every time we were about to get Z-10 , they pull the string and then people start talking
> 
> "Oh yar we are getting those ZULUs in 2014 .... why waste funding on different helicopter?"
> "Oh those ZULUs are top of line , we waste fund on other platforms?"
> "Oh don't bother with other platform , we will have so many helicopter platforms?"
> 
> Reality .. we got severe shortage of actual gunships


It is easy to winge. The real question is what options did you have. The Chinese Z10 was and still is not ready and has failed trials. The red bear was not providing you with used toilet paper till 2014. Even now progress on defence acquisition is very slow. EU would basically have fleeced you for everything you had but would have also sold you potentially sanctionable product at 1.5 times the price. So all in all no avenues open to you.
A


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Wake me up when those Zulus arrive 
Peope in charge back then have retired and have now gone away from picture

2005 to 2018 : Mere 4 Mi-35 to showcase in that time frame

While there are 100-150 -> Z-10 , Chinese choppers flying in China sure to me showcases the potential of the birds


India has continued to widen the gap in aviation/mobility of soliders over years 
and they have now established a quite a wide lead on Ground operations / and support from Gunship helicopters


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## Ahmet Pasha

IMO it'll be stupidest move to scrap T129 for used junk from United States of Allegations.

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## Gryphon

araz said:


> It is easy to winge. The real question is what options did you have. The Chinese Z10 was and still is not ready and has failed trials. The red bear was not providing you with used toilet paper till 2014. Even now progress on defence acquisition is very slow. EU would basically have fleeced you for everything you had but would have also sold you potentially sanctionable product at 1.5 times the price. So all in all no avenues open to you.
> A



Except China, Turkey is the only country wlling to offer/capable of offering a USD 1.5 bn loan to Pakistan. No wonder Pakistan is forced to negotiate a deal for the T-129s - with American engines at a price exceeding the top grade AH-1Z Viper.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> Except China, Turkey is the only country wlling to offer/capable of offering a USD 1.5 bn loan to Pakistan. No wonder Pakistan is forced to negotiate a deal for the T-129s - with American engines at a price exceeding the top grade AH-1Z Viper.


I remember reading from WikiLeaks how Carter offered to back a loan for the sale of Mirage F-1 or Mirage 2000s to Pakistan. It'll be interesting to see who's actually underwriting the T129 and MILGEM loans. Trump has basically put the Dept of State and Dept of Defence in uneasy situations where the two need Pakistan to execute US interests in Afghanistan, but know that Pakistan can't/won't do it without the necessary hardware. If the US can't supply that stuff directly, perhaps it can - and possibly is - facilitating others to transfer it.

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I remember reading from WikiLeaks how Carter offered to back a loan for the sale of Mirage F-1 or Mirage 2000s to Pakistan. It'll be interesting to see who's actually underwriting the T129 and MILGEM loans. Trump has basically put the Dept of State and Dept of Defence in uneasy situations where the two need Pakistan to execute US interests in Afghanistan, but know that Pakistan can't/won't do it without the necessary hardware. If the US can't supply that stuff directly, perhaps it can - and possibly is - facilitating others to transfer it.



That was the era of Zia, when Pakistan had the respect it deserved.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Depending on how the US aid issue develops, this could potentially scuttle the T129 deal. Basically, the USMC will sell-off its AH-1Ws, and unlike the old AH-1F/S, this does have some commonality with the AH-1Z. If Pakistan and the US come to a new deal on aid (e.g. the US only giving money and equipment for specific US-defined ops in the Tribal Areas), Pakistan could look at buying ~30 AH-1W along with the 12-15 AH-1Z. @Oscar @Horus
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/77142/usmc-supercobras-to-be-sold-off-to-international-customers


It is possible but for it we need diplomacy and boldness.Jorden got another Sqd of F16 s from Belgium other than they put on sale. 
Diplomacy Diplomacy and proactive not reactive. These whiskey cobras r still in good shape.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Depending on how the US aid issue develops, this could potentially scuttle the T129 deal. Basically, the USMC will sell-off its AH-1Ws, and unlike the old AH-1F/S, this does have some commonality with the AH-1Z. If Pakistan and the US come to a new deal on aid (e.g. the US only giving money and equipment for specific US-defined ops in the Tribal Areas), Pakistan could look at buying ~30 AH-1W along with the 12-15 AH-1Z. @Oscar @Horus
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/77142/usmc-supercobras-to-be-sold-off-to-international-customers


The super cobras dont offer much in terms of gain to the PA and will still have higher maintenance than new airframes.

I don’t see the T-129 being scuttled as such as delayed, there may be openness to develop one with a european engine if Pakistan shoulders the development costs.

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## mingle

A country without a full time defence minister and forgien minister then expecting any proactive policy is a dream. 
Thanks to NS.

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## araz

Gryphon said:


> Except China, Turkey is the only country wlling to offer/capable of offering a USD 1.5 bn loan to Pakistan. No wonder Pakistan is forced to negotiate a deal for the T-129s - with American engines at a price exceeding the top grade AH-1Z Viper.


The Z 10 has failed trials in Pak lands. The Chinese members here have commented on the engines being inadequate for the job. The price of the T129 is morw or less same as the AH 1Z. But it is the factor of local assembly which makss it more palatable.
A



Gryphon said:


> That was the era of Zia, when Pakistan had the respect it deserved.


Zia knew how to handle them. He was not enamoured by them inspite of his humility and stood his ground where it mattered. This was the reason he was gotten away with.
A

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## fatman17

Cobra gate guard

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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 449676
> 
> Cobra gate guard


Army Muesum Lahore..

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## khanasifm

Looks a model and not an actual one correct ??


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## Shabi1

khanasifm said:


> Looks a model and not an actual one correct ??


Likely air frame from a crashed/beyond repair unit after useful parts cannibalized.


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## Human One

Shabi1 said:


> Likely air frame from a crashed/beyond repair unit after useful parts cannibalized.



Did you notice the mannequins inside?


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## Shabi1

Human One said:


> Did you notice the mannequins inside?


yes, did notice it.

Some more pictures and other helicopters at Army Aviation Museum Lahore
http://www.historyofpia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25001

Evidently tail of the Cobra has 216 Serial number but the nose shows 191. So its a mix of parts.


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## fatman17

Operation for rescue of Foreign Mountaineers at #NangaParbat by #PakistanArmy. In response to request for rescue of two foreign #mountaineers (one male one female) who are stuck in bad weather at Nanga Parbat, an operation is in progress. https://t.co/delZyiV6o4

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## fatman17

Nanga Purbat Rescue Update (27/01/2018)
Fresh pictures a while ago, when helicopters of Pakistan Army picked up the polish rescue climbers from K2 Base Camp.
Source: PTDC K2 Motel Skardu https://t.co/uAvXbTWGrD


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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/957489689262546944

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## Ahmet Pasha

I thought the poles were gonna climg to the top of K-2?


fatman17 said:


> Nanga Purbat Rescue Update (27/01/2018)
> Fresh pictures a while ago, when helicopters of Pakistan Army picked up the polish rescue climbers from K2 Base Camp.
> Source: PTDC K2 Motel Skardu https://t.co/uAvXbTWGrD
> View attachment 450401


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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I thought the poles were gonna climg to the top of K-2?


They were taken to Nanga Parbat to rescue the stuck climbers there.

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## fatman17

Hodor said:


> They were taken to Nanga Parbat to rescue the stuck climbers there.


The French woman has been rescued but her polish partner was unfortunately not so lucky. The rescue had to be called off due to extreme bad weather and cold.


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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> The French woman has been rescued but her polish partner was unfortunately not so lucky. The rescue had to be called off due to extreme bad weather and cold.


Yep he couldnt be found.


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## SipahSalar

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> we're still buying MaxxPros


Are we really buying them? I thought we were getting them for free a Major Non NATO Ally as they were surplus and not being used.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SipahSalar said:


> Are we really buying them? I thought we were getting them for free a Major Non NATO Ally as they were surplus and not being used.


Pakistan ordered 40 new-built ones for $35 m a year ago. I guess they were likely bought using FMF. 

https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract-View/Article/1086534


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

fatman17 said:


> Operation for rescue of Foreign Mountaineers at #NangaParbat by #PakistanArmy. In response to request for rescue of two foreign #mountaineers (one male one female) who are stuck in bad weather at Nanga Parbat, an operation is in progress. https://t.co/delZyiV6o4
> View attachment 450397



Quite a darring rescue hopefully all goes well


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## Human One

Shabi1 said:


> yes, did notice it.
> 
> Some more pictures and other helicopters at Army Aviation Museum Lahore
> http://www.historyofpia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25001
> 
> Evidently tail of the Cobra has 216 Serial number but the nose shows 191. So its a mix of parts.



That's impressive. I had did not know about that museum. The lighting there is arranged well. When aircraft are on display, they are normally a single example retired from service.


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## Arsalan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I thought the poles were gonna climg to the top of K-2?


They were!
But the canceled their plans and opted to go for the rescue operation at Nanga Parbat. Were taken there by army aviation. One of the climbers at Nanga Parbat have been rescued while the male was not so fortunate and have not been found. Search called off due to bad weather and because he have been assumed dead (harsh weather conditions)

The attempt to climb K2 and Killer Mountain in the winters was a huge risk - Real brave people all of these!

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## Ahmet Pasha

Are they polish civvies or military?


Arsalan said:


> They were!
> But the canceled their plans and opted to go for the rescue operation at Nanga Parbat. Were taken there by army aviation. One of the climbers at Nanga Parbat have been rescued while the male was not so fortunate and have not been found. Search called off due to bad weather and because he have been assumed dead (harsh weather conditions)
> 
> The attempt to climb K2 and Killer Mountain in the winters was a huge risk - Real brave people all of these!


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## fatman17



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## Talon

Arsalan said:


> They were!
> But the canceled their plans and opted to go for the rescue operation at Nanga Parbat. Were taken there by army aviation. One of the climbers at Nanga Parbat have been rescued while the male was not so fortunate and have not been found. Search called off due to bad weather and because he have been assumed dead (harsh weather conditions)
> 
> The attempt to climb K2 and Killer Mountain in the winters was a huge risk - Real brave people all of these!


They are actually.
They hv gone back to K2 after the rescue op to continue their attempt.


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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Pakistan evaluating new attack helicopter options

Gareth Jennings, London - Jane's Defence Weekly

31 January 2018

The Pakistan Army is looking at procuring a new attack helicopter type to enhance its current capabilities as part of a wider modernisation of its rotary-winged assault capabilities.





The Turkish T-129 is one of a number of attack helicopter types that Pakistan might look to acquire as it seeks to modernise its rotary-winged assault capabilities. Along with the Chinese-built Z-10 is it reported to have already been evaluated by Pakistan Army Aviation, while a follow-on buy of US-built AH-1Zs remains another possibility. (TAI)

Speaking at the IQPC Military Helicopter conference in London, the commander of Pakistan Army Aviation, Major General Nasir D Shah, said that a number of platform options are being considered to augment its current Bell AH-1 Cobras, its already arrived and soon-to-be inducted Mil Mi-35s, and its soon to be delivered Bell AH-1Z Viper platforms.

“Army Aviation has plans to further enhance its attack helicopter fleets, and various options are currently being considered and evaluated,” Gen Shah said on 31 January. “Army Aviation needs a platform that is suitable for operations in a dusty environment, that can fly in extreme high temperatures while suitably configured [with weapons and sensors], can operate in low visibility [night and ‘brownout’ conditions], that demonstrates ease of maintenance and logistic support, and where depot-level maintenance can be transferred [to Pakistan].”

While the general made no reference to the platforms being considered, Pakistan is known to have evaluated the Chinese-built Z-10 as far back as 2014, and it was reported by Turkey that a number of its TAI T-129 attack helicopters had been sent to Pakistan for evaluation in 2016. Besides these two platforms, Pakistan might instead procure additional AH-1Zs to fulfil its requirements.

According to Gen Shah, while the current Cobras have proven to be effective over their more-than-30-years of service, they are now showing their limitations. “The [current 32] AH-1 helicopters have provided effective close support for our ground forces engaged in counterinsurgency [COIN] operations, but they cannot be employed effectively in high-altitude operations above 8,000 ft,” he noted.

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/958949177001586689


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## fatman17

How an Army Chief changes direction of the force; role of Army Aviation and especially Cobra helicopters in rooting out militancy- rare footage 
#FourGeneralsOneWar #Pakistan #Pakistani #PakistanArmy 
https://t.co/GBBATfy5QQ

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## fatman17

Europeans praise Pakistan for rescue of Polish, French mountaineers from killer mountain Nanga Parbat
2 Feb, 2018


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## Arsalan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Are they polish civvies or military?


Climbers! They were here to attempt climbing K2 (not military).
Were helped by Pakistan Army Aviation who picked them from K2, dropped them On Nanga Parbat at a certain height from where they climbed, rescued the lady climber and brought her back to the height from where PAA helicopter took them to Islamabad (Hospital)



Hodor said:


> They are actually.
> They hv gone back to K2 after the rescue op to continue their attempt.


True!



fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Pakistan evaluating new attack helicopter options
> 
> Gareth Jennings, London - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 31 January 2018
> 
> The Pakistan Army is looking at procuring a new attack helicopter type to enhance its current capabilities as part of a wider modernisation of its rotary-winged assault capabilities.
> View attachment 451048
> 
> 
> The Turkish T-129 is one of a number of attack helicopter types that Pakistan might look to acquire as it seeks to modernise its rotary-winged assault capabilities. Along with the Chinese-built Z-10 is it reported to have already been evaluated by Pakistan Army Aviation, while a follow-on buy of US-built AH-1Zs remains another possibility. (TAI)
> 
> Speaking at the IQPC Military Helicopter conference in London, the commander of Pakistan Army Aviation, Major General Nasir D Shah, said that a number of platform options are being considered to augment its current Bell AH-1 Cobras, its already arrived and soon-to-be inducted Mil Mi-35s, and its soon to be delivered Bell AH-1Z Viper platforms.
> 
> “Army Aviation has plans to further enhance its attack helicopter fleets, and various options are currently being considered and evaluated,” Gen Shah said on 31 January. “Army Aviation needs a platform that is suitable for operations in a dusty environment, that can fly in extreme high temperatures while suitably configured [with weapons and sensors], can operate in low visibility [night and ‘brownout’ conditions], that demonstrates ease of maintenance and logistic support, and where depot-level maintenance can be transferred [to Pakistan].”
> 
> While the general made no reference to the platforms being considered, Pakistan is known to have evaluated the Chinese-built Z-10 as far back as 2014, and it was reported by Turkey that a number of its TAI T-129 attack helicopters had been sent to Pakistan for evaluation in 2016. Besides these two platforms, Pakistan might instead procure additional AH-1Zs to fulfil its requirements.
> 
> According to Gen Shah, while the current Cobras have proven to be effective over their more-than-30-years of service, they are now showing their limitations. “The [current 32] AH-1 helicopters have provided effective close support for our ground forces engaged in counterinsurgency [COIN] operations, but they cannot be employed effectively in high-altitude operations above 8,000 ft,” he noted.


It have been under evaluation for quite some time now. Perhaps it is the financial aspect that is taking time now.

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## BERKEKHAN2

Puma

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## fatman17

Pakistan Army Aviation SA 330 Puma of Dragon Squadron https://t.co/xCj0uf10Q7

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## BHarwana

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) can you please confirm that Pakistan made the purchase of Z-10 attack helicopters because I have sources that are now reporting that the sale has been made of initial 20 Z-10 attack helicopters.

Please check this link below.

http://www.janes.com/article/77683/...s-in-on-asian-military-aircraft-opportunities


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## Army research

BHarwana said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can you please confirm that Pakistan made the purchase of Z-10 attack helicopters because I have sources that are now reporting that the sale has been made of initial 20 Z-10 attack helicopters.
> 
> Please check this link below.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/77683/...s-in-on-asian-military-aircraft-opportunities


Even if they did , please don't disclose it in the open, let the news be made public or we if we did buy them we'll see em at 23 march to really surprise others


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## BHarwana

Army research said:


> Even if they did , please don't disclose it in the open, let the news be made public or we if we did buy them we'll see em at 23 march to really surprise others


This is on Jane.com I am just confirming it from @Bilal Khan (Quwa) it is already published today.


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## Army research

BHarwana said:


> This is on Jane.com I am just confirming it from @Bilal Khan (Quwa) it is already published today.


Oh in that case my bad


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## Ahmet Pasha

Have they gone nuts???
They are willingly ruining a done deal with TAI


BHarwana said:


> This is on Jane.com I am just confirming it from @Bilal Khan (Quwa) it is already published today.


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## BHarwana

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Have they gone nuts???
> They are willingly ruining a done deal with TAI


I think TAI deal was done after this purchase has been made. I am excepting to see both coming.


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## Ahmet Pasha

They both fulfill the same role?? Don't they??
What a waste of scarce national treasure.


BHarwana said:


> I think TAI deal was done after this purchase has been made. I am excepting to see both coming.


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## BHarwana

Ahmet Pasha said:


> They both fulfill the same role?? Don't they??
> What a waste of scarce national treasure.


It is not waste of resources. Both are good platforms. If Pakistan has trouble with one platform like in acquiring spare parts the other fleet will ensure operations. It is just insurance policy.

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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Have they gone nuts???
> They are willingly ruining a done deal with TAI


Now a student of FSC will tell the military whats right and whats wrong...Dear fellow you can always give your opinion on a matter but keep it just an opinion and not make it a final comment.People who are sitting in the military and have tested these machines know better than any of us here. 



BHarwana said:


> It is not waste of resources. Both are good platforms. If Pakistan has trouble with one platform like in acquiring spare parts the other fleet will ensure operations. It is just insurance policy.


If this news is true then Z10 must be very good at a certain thing which forced Paa to buy it ignoring its cons..just a thought.


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## Ahmet Pasha

It it based on evaluation results Z10 was found lacking in engine. Qhereas the t129 passed hot and high trials with flying colors.


Hodor said:


> Now a student of FSC will tell the military whats right and whats wrong...Dear fellow you can always give your opinion on a matter but keep it just an opinion and not make it a final comment.People who are sitting in the military and have tested these machines know better than any of us here.
> 
> 
> If this news is true then Z10 must be very good at a certain thing which forced Paa to buy it ignoring its cons..just a thought.


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## Talon

Ahmet Pasha said:


> It it based on evaluation results Z10 was found lacking in engine. Qhereas the t129 passed hot and high trials with flying colors.


As i said people who tested it know better than us..


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## Ahmet Pasha

Pak military when it comes to procurement of air assets has made a few blunders in past.


Hodor said:


> As i said people who tested it know better than us..


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## khanasifm

Hodor said:


> Now a student of FSC will tell the military whats right and whats wrong...Dear fellow you can always give your opinion on a matter but keep it just an opinion and not make it a final comment.People who are sitting in the military and have tested these machines know better than any of us here.
> 
> 
> If this news is true then Z10 must be very good at a certain thing which forced Paa to buy it ignoring its cons..just a thought.



Cost and benefits analysis ??? For the cost and capability it’s surpasses other options

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## python-000

BHarwana said:


> It is not waste of resources. Both are good platforms. If Pakistan has trouble with one platform like in acquiring spare parts the other fleet will ensure operations. It is just insurance policy.


yes you are right bro, one is aggressive & one is stealth both can defend Pakistan in a good way


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## fatman17

Beautiful view of Afghan border.

Note the newly constructed Pakistani fence.[emoji7] https://t.co/QelEmHcSHm

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## fatman17

Industry

Singapore Airshow 2018: China closes in on Asian military aircraft opportunities

Jon Grevatt, Singapore - Jane's Defence Weekly

07 February 2018

The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) is looking to secure a number of military export orders from countries in the Asia-Pacific region spurred by several recent major orders, a senior official from the state-owned group’s export arm, the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC), told Jane’s on 6 February.

In the past few years AVIC’s major military exports to the region include JF-17 Thunder multirole combat aircraft and K-8 Karakorum-8 trainer aircraft to Myanmar, K-8 sales to Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka; Z-10 attack helicopters to Pakistan; Z-9 light utility helicopters to Cambodia; and MA-60 transport aircraft to Laos.

Mere speculation at this point in time.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

*Singapore Airshow: Turkey closes in on T129 sale*

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-helicopter/singapore-airshow-turkey-closes-T129-sale/

8th February 2018 - 01:02 GMT | by Wendell Minnick in Singapore

RSS

*Pakistan is planning to buy 30 T129 Atak attack helicopters built by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), said Tamer Ozmen, vice president for corporate marketing and communications, at this week’s Singapore Airshow. TAI is very close to signing a contract, he said.*

In December, TAI also received an RfI from Thailand for the T129 with the possible procurement of eight or more aircraft.

Ozmen said TAI is also developing a UAV that will compete on the international market for HALE surveillance missions, similar to the Northrop Grumman RQ-4 Global Hawk. The aircraft will be able to reach an altitude of 15,000m using jet engines. 

It is in the planning stages and the company is in discussions with potential international co-development partners, Ozmen said.

TAI is also in the R&D stage of the Anka II MALE UAV with the same body as the original Anka, except with extended wings and powered by two engines. The original Anka is powered by a single rear 155hp heavy fuel engine and has a maximum altitude of 9,000m. 

The Anka II will be able to climb to 12,000m. Both aircraft have a 24h endurance. The payload will increase from 200kg to 750kg for the Anka II. Beyond the same sensor and systems payloads, the Anka II will also be able to carry two Mk 82 unguided bombs, he said.

Ozmen also said the first two Anka-S (SATCOM) UAVs were delivered to the Turkish Air Force on 1 February. He noted that all other Turkish armed forces are equipped with the original 200km-range line-of-sight variant, though the ground stations can extend it to 400+km.

On the international front, Anka has established strong cooperation with Malaysia’s DRB-HICOM Defence Technologies (DefTech) for a direct sale of the Anka UAV. This would be the first international sale, if approved. 

Indonesia is also very interested in procuring six aircraft with two ground stations. Both Malaysia and Indonesia share challenging coastlines dotted with islets favourable to illegal maritime activities, such as piracy and smuggling.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Man, u and @fatman17 have shared conflicting sources. So is PAA going with both types??

Won't this make for a hodge podge of all sorts. Including AH-1Fs, new AH-1Zs, Mi-35, possible heavy/medium like Mi-28 and then these two Z10 and T-129 ATAK??


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> *Singapore Airshow: Turkey closes in on T129 sale*
> 
> https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-helicopter/singapore-airshow-turkey-closes-T129-sale/
> 
> 8th February 2018 - 01:02 GMT | by Wendell Minnick in Singapore
> 
> RSS
> 
> *Pakistan is planning to buy 30 T129 Atak attack helicopters built by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), said Tamer Ozmen, vice president for corporate marketing and communications, at this week’s Singapore Airshow. TAI is very close to signing a contract, he said.*
> 
> In December, TAI also received an RfI from Thailand for the T129 with the possible procurement of eight or more aircraft.
> 
> Ozmen said TAI is also developing a UAV that will compete on the international market for HALE surveillance missions, similar to the Northrop Grumman RQ-4 Global Hawk. The aircraft will be able to reach an altitude of 15,000m using jet engines.
> 
> It is in the planning stages and the company is in discussions with potential international co-development partners, Ozmen said.
> 
> TAI is also in the R&D stage of the Anka II MALE UAV with the same body as the original Anka, except with extended wings and powered by two engines. The original Anka is powered by a single rear 155hp heavy fuel engine and has a maximum altitude of 9,000m.
> 
> The Anka II will be able to climb to 12,000m. Both aircraft have a 24h endurance. The payload will increase from 200kg to 750kg for the Anka II. Beyond the same sensor and systems payloads, the Anka II will also be able to carry two Mk 82 unguided bombs, he said.
> 
> Ozmen also said the first two Anka-S (SATCOM) UAVs were delivered to the Turkish Air Force on 1 February. He noted that all other Turkish armed forces are equipped with the original 200km-range line-of-sight variant, though the ground stations can extend it to 400+km.
> 
> On the international front, Anka has established strong cooperation with Malaysia’s DRB-HICOM Defence Technologies (DefTech) for a direct sale of the Anka UAV. This would be the first international sale, if approved.
> 
> Indonesia is also very interested in procuring six aircraft with two ground stations. Both Malaysia and Indonesia share challenging coastlines dotted with islets favourable to illegal maritime activities, such as piracy and smuggling.


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## Gryphon

@Hodor @Ahmet Pasha

The Jane's article confirms nothing. The author is mistaking the temporary transfer of 3x Z-10 helicopters for trials & evaluation as a sale.

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## python-000

Gryphon said:


> @Hodor @Ahmet Pasha
> 
> The Jane's article confirms nothing. The author is mistaking the temporarary transfer of 3x Z-10 helicopters for trials & evaluation as a sale.


so do you have any problem if Pakistan purchasing more Z-10's



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> *Singapore Airshow: Turkey closes in on T129 sale*
> 
> https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-helicopter/singapore-airshow-turkey-closes-T129-sale/
> 
> 8th February 2018 - 01:02 GMT | by Wendell Minnick in Singapore
> 
> RSS
> 
> *Pakistan is planning to buy 30 T129 Atak attack helicopters built by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), said Tamer Ozmen, vice president for corporate marketing and communications, at this week’s Singapore Airshow. TAI is very close to signing a contract, he said.*
> 
> In December, TAI also received an RfI from Thailand for the T129 with the possible procurement of eight or more aircraft.
> 
> Ozmen said TAI is also developing a UAV that will compete on the international market for HALE surveillance missions, similar to the Northrop Grumman RQ-4 Global Hawk. The aircraft will be able to reach an altitude of 15,000m using jet engines.
> 
> It is in the planning stages and the company is in discussions with potential international co-development partners, Ozmen said.
> 
> TAI is also in the R&D stage of the Anka II MALE UAV with the same body as the original Anka, except with extended wings and powered by two engines. The original Anka is powered by a single rear 155hp heavy fuel engine and has a maximum altitude of 9,000m.
> 
> The Anka II will be able to climb to 12,000m. Both aircraft have a 24h endurance. The payload will increase from 200kg to 750kg for the Anka II. Beyond the same sensor and systems payloads, the Anka II will also be able to carry two Mk 82 unguided bombs, he said.
> 
> Ozmen also said the first two Anka-S (SATCOM) UAVs were delivered to the Turkish Air Force on 1 February. He noted that all other Turkish armed forces are equipped with the original 200km-range line-of-sight variant, though the ground stations can extend it to 400+km.
> 
> On the international front, Anka has established strong cooperation with Malaysia’s DRB-HICOM Defence Technologies (DefTech) for a direct sale of the Anka UAV. This would be the first international sale, if approved.
> 
> Indonesia is also very interested in procuring six aircraft with two ground stations. Both Malaysia and Indonesia share challenging coastlines dotted with islets favourable to illegal maritime activities, such as piracy and smuggling.


in my opinion the contract will be signed in 2050 i hope sooo *still preparing stage *


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Man, u and @fatman17 have shared conflicting sources. So is PAA going with both types??
> 
> Won't this make for a hodge podge of all sorts. Including AH-1Fs, new AH-1Zs, Mi-35, possible heavy/medium like Mi-28 and then these two Z10 and T-129 ATAK??


To simplify matters ... so far, the PAA's attack helicopter plans center on just 3 new platforms: AH-1Z (heavy), T129 (light) and Mi-35M (assault). Technically, the Mi-35M isn't all new, it uses the same engines as the Mi-17/171.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Dont AH1Zs and ATAKs also share same engine or atleast parts commonality?


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To simplify matters ... so far, the PAA's attack helicopter plans center on just 3 new platforms: AH-1Z (heavy), T129 (light) and Mi-35M (assault). Technically, the Mi-35M isn't all new, it uses the same engines as the Mi-17/171.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Dont AH1Zs and ATAKs also share same engine or atleast parts commonality?


No engine commonality. No parts commonality. But the T700 (AH-1Z) and LHTEC T800 (T129) are common engines in their own right, so if Pakistan needs other helicopters it can find some with those engines if need be.

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## Shabi1

python-000 said:


> so do you have any problem if Pakistan purchasing more Z-10's
> 
> 
> in my opinion the contract will be signed in 2050 i hope sooo *still preparing stage *



The Z-10 is a a superb platform and in this case its better Pakistan utilize the funding credit from our Chinese friends for other items like ships and submarines etc. My understanding why Pakistan chose to go for AH-1Z instead is because they have better high altitude performance and will be used extensively combating terrorists near Afghan border. Pakistan will claim compensation in form of coalition support funding. US doesnt give funding directly to Pakistan it prefers spending those on its on products. So munitions and spares for AH-1Zs will be reimbursable.
Decision to choose T-129 is because its a lighter platform and Turkey offered joint production and it is not just for units meant for Pakistan. PAC Kamra will be making components and spares to supply for other T-129 customers as well.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Shabi1 said:


> The Z-10 is a a superb platform and in this case its better Pakistan utilize the funding credit from our Chinese friends for other items like ships and submarines etc. My understanding why Pakistan chose to go for AH-1Z instead is because they have better high altitude performance and will be used extensively combating terrorists near Afghan border. Pakistan will claim compensation in form of coalition support funding. US doesnt give funding directly to Pakistan it prefers spending those on its on products. So munitions and spares for AH-1Zs will be reimbursable.
> Decision to choose T-129 is because its a lighter platform and Turkey offered joint production and it is not just for units meant for Pakistan. *PAC Kamra will be making components and spares to supply for other T-129 customers as well.*


With Bangladesh, Thailand and the Philippines now engaged with TAI for the T129, the parts manufacturing aspect has just gotten a lot more important.

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## Shabi1

Canada is selling Bell-412EPI to Philippines. How much of the 412 do they make, because this is interesting in perspective to Pakistan since its been using Bell-412s extensively and there are chances of procuring more..

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/philippines-helicopters-canada-1.4522238


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## fatman17

Gryphon said:


> @Hodor @Ahmet Pasha
> 
> The Jane's article confirms nothing. The author is mistaking the temporary transfer of 3x Z-10 helicopters for trials & evaluation as a sale.


Exactly

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## fatman17

Shabi1 said:


> The Z-10 is a a superb platform and in this case its better Pakistan utilize the funding credit from our Chinese friends for other items like ships and submarines etc. My understanding why Pakistan chose to go for AH-1Z instead is because they have better high altitude performance and will be used extensively combating terrorists near Afghan border. Pakistan will claim compensation in form of coalition support funding. US doesnt give funding directly to Pakistan it prefers spending those on its on products. So munitions and spares for AH-1Zs will be reimbursable.
> Decision to choose T-129 is because its a lighter platform and Turkey offered joint production and it is not just for units meant for Pakistan. PAC Kamra will be making components and spares to supply for other T-129 customers as well.


Z10 has failed certain trial parameters esp. The powerplant.

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## Talon

Gryphon said:


> @Hodor @Ahmet Pasha
> 
> The Jane's article confirms nothing. The author is mistaking the temporary transfer of 3x Z-10 helicopters for trials & evaluation as a sale.


I didnt read the article..but still i said that *if the news is true*



BHarwana said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can you please confirm that Pakistan made the purchase of Z-10 attack helicopters because I have sources that are now reporting that the sale has been made of initial 20 Z-10 attack helicopters.
> 
> Please check this link below.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/77683/...s-in-on-asian-military-aircraft-opportunities


Again your source has issues...no offence...

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## python-000



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## BHarwana

Hodor said:


> Again your source has issues...no offence...



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 

My friend source has no issues it is fan boys that have issues. PA has a big budget unlike PAF and Navy and PA is going for all three platforms.

Some one is try to mislead the community of PDF with out any hard proof. I always give sources and with out any proof experts start debunking them.

The J-10 deal every one said the source was old okay on this deal now the experts are saying the source is new okay. My question WTF will experts agree with. The bird is flying in Pakistan and yet they are saying it is not purchased? lol 

The Mi-35 that came from Russia came for a reason. Pakistan was provided with Helicopters from USA to patrol Pak-Afghan border which have been returned to USA and Mi-35 came to replace them. Please read the Russian statement on Mi-35 which said that Pakistan will be provided Mi-35 on short notice to fight terrorism.


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## Talon

BHarwana said:


> The bird is flying in Pakistan and yet they are saying it is not purchased? lol


L.O.L
I dont know if u saw my post or not but i posted some screenshots of a Z10 evaluation pilot who said that the helis were returned to china and were not the best of the machines...so they arent flying in Pak anymore..

As far as sources are concerened,dont trust articles posted on public websites..read them??? for sure but always doubt them.


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## BHarwana

Hodor said:


> L.O.L
> I dont know if u saw my post or not but i posted some screenshots of a Z10 evaluation pilot who said that the helis were returned to china and were not the best of the machines...so they arent flying in Pak anymore..
> 
> As far as sources are concerened,dont trust articles posted on public websites..read them??? for sure but always doubt them.



lol first of all these type of assessments are never made public. AVIC is a Pakistan partner company and no idiot would release a public assessment and call their product bad. Any such test pilot will be sacked in a sec.

Have you ever thought on this? AVIC is involved in many projects with Pakistan. It is not just Z-10 but many more.

Regarding the website Jane is not PA official website and is a military News reporter. So yes there is a doubt but so far it is the most valid military news website out there.


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## Talon

BHarwana said:


> lol first of all these type of assessments are never made public. AVIC is a Pakistan partner company and no idiot would release a public assessment and call their product bad. Any such test pilot will be sacked in a sec.
> 
> Have you ever thought on this? AVIC is involved in many projects with Pakistan. It is not just Z-10 but many more.
> 
> Regarding the website Jane is not PA official website and is a military News reporter. So yes there is a doubt but so far it is the most valid military news website out there.


Check out this link...infact u have replied to it:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/z10-evaluation-finally-ended.536451/


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## BHarwana

Hodor said:


> Check out this link...infact u have replied to it:
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/z10-evaluation-finally-ended.536451/



What is this thread a super BS? where is the source?


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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To simplify matters ... so far, the PAA's attack helicopter plans center on just 3 new platforms: AH-1Z (heavy), T129 (light) and Mi-35M (assault). Technically, the Mi-35M isn't all new, it uses the same engines as the Mi-17/171.



You can't use that argument for the Mi-35s Bilal. It would be like saying getting F-15s is technically not a new fighter since it has the same engines as our F-16s =P


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## Talon

BHarwana said:


> What is this thread a super BS? where is the source?


The screenshots are from instagram story of the pilot...and u had no issues participating in the thread at that time now its a BS...dude come on xD


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## BHarwana

Hodor said:


> The screenshots are from instagram story of the pilot...and u had no issues participating in the thread at that time now its a BS...dude come on xD




Please read my comments in that thread I never agreed with Z-10 being rejected and this is BS news of Major because there is no source.


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## Talon

BHarwana said:


> Please read my comments in that thread I never agreed with Z-10 being rejected and this is BS news of Major because there is no source.


Yeah wikipedia is a valid source and a direct post from a major who tested the heli himself is BS...sae ja rahy ho bhai ap 
P.s I never said it has been rejected.
Anyways...lets end this discussion cuz its always useless discussing with you..


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## Army research

GriffinsRule said:


> You can't use that argument for the Mi-35s Bilal. It would be like saying getting F-15s is technically not a new fighter since it has the same engines as our F-16s =P


The mi series helicopters have a single manufacturer , engine , several internal components, probably even the fabric for the seats. 
They don't have different engines , radars, electronics. Mi35 is essentially a remodelled attack mi17, the f15 and 16 are poles apart

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## GriffinsRule

Are the Mi-35s PA ordered be using the older TV3-117VMA or its newer development, VK-2500?

Having some components commonality doesn't make them the same however, and they will still have their own logistical chain. That is why one costs 3X as much as the other.

Still a pointless purchase and that too in such small numbers as to be completely useless imo.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Army research said:


> The mi series helicopters have a single manufacturer , engine , several internal components, probably even the fabric for the seats.
> They don't have different engines , radars, electronics. Mi35 is essentially a remodelled attack mi17, the f15 and 16 are poles apart


With helicopters in general, once you standardize the engine, rotor parts, dynamic parts, flight control system and electronics, you're basically left with differences in the airframe. But the majority of your maintenance will be in relation to the engine and dynamic parts.


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## Ahmet Pasha

There were rumors PAA will get upto a 20-40 of Mi35s. So let's see what happens


GriffinsRule said:


> Are the Mi-35s PA ordered be using the older TV3-117VMA or its newer development, VK-2500?
> 
> Having some components commonality doesn't make them the same however, and they will still have their own logistical chain. That is why one costs 3X as much as the other.
> 
> Still a pointless purchase and that too in such small numbers as to be completely useless imo.


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## fatman17

Gryphon said:


> Mi-35M, i.e., the variant PA acquired uses Klimov VK-2500 turboshaft engines.


Where are these ghost Mi35Ms


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## BHarwana

fatman17 said:


> Where are these ghost Mi35Ms


They are waiting for you at the airport to give you tour around the country. 

They are with the army where else.


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## fatman17

BHarwana said:


> They are waiting for you at the airport to give you tour around the country.
> 
> They are with the army where else.


Got any pics to confirm your claim

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## BHarwana

fatman17 said:


> Got any pics to confirm your claim



Please contact Brig. Gen. Waheed Mumtaz at DEPO he can confirm you this info.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) here is the confirmation of the first deliveries of Mi 171E 19.04.2017

http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/..._helicopters_transfers_a_mi-171E_to_pakistan/

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## fatman17

BHarwana said:


> Please contact Brig. Gen. Waheed Mumtaz at DEPO he can confirm you this info.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) here is the confirmation of the first deliveries of Mi 171E 19.04.2017
> 
> http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/..._helicopters_transfers_a_mi-171E_to_pakistan/


We're discussing Mi35Ms not Mi17s


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## BHarwana

fatman17 said:


> We're discussing Mi35Ms not Mi17s


This info is not for you it is for @Bilal Khan (Quwa) he and I were discussing the delivery of first Mi 171E to Pakistan in 2017. He said there was one but I told him 2 were delivered in 2017.

For you I have provided you the person to contact to get the info DEPO. Please contact Brig. Gen. Waheed Mumtaz at DEPO He issued a statement at DESI 2017 that Mi-35m have been delivered to Pakistan.


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## Gryphon

GriffinsRule said:


> Are the Mi-35s PA ordered be using the older TV3-117VMA or its newer development, VK-2500?



Mi-35M, i.e., the variant PA acquired uses Klimov VK-2500 turboshaft engines.



fatman17 said:


> Where are these ghost Mi35Ms



_Speaking at the IQPC Military Helicopter conference in London, the commander of Pakistan Army Aviation, Major General Nasir D Shah, said that a number of platform options are being considered to augment its current Bell AH-1 Cobras, *its already arrived and soon-to-be inducted Mil Mi-35s*, and its soon to be delivered Bell AH-1Z Viper platforms._

http://www.janes.com/article/77493/pakistan-evaluating-new-attack-helicopter-options







_Shephard also spoke to John Woodbery, Bell Helicopter’s military programme director for Asia, who highlighted the appeal of the AH-1Z and UH-1Y thanks to their marinised nature. He said there was ‘healthy interest’ in the AH-1Z, as well as ‘a lot of promise in the Asia-Pacific region’ for the Viper/Venom combination.

Bell Helicopter did ‘not know’ what impact President Donald Trump’s embargo against Pakistan might have regarding the delivery of Vipers, but *production continues unabated for the Pakistan order.*_

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotorhub/singapore-airshow-2018-bell-rings-loudly-asia-paci/







_Speaking to FlightGlobal at the Singapore airshow, TAI's vice-president of corporate marketing and communications Tamer Ozmen, says that *the company is in "advanced discussions" with Pakistan for the T129*

Ozmen says that the T129 would appeal to potential operators in Asia-Pacific given how the platform has proven itself at home and in Syria against terrorist threats.

He adds that Pakistan's interest in the T129 was due to the company also having proven in tests that the *platform was able to "excel in hot and high conditions" of 52˚C (126˚F) and at 14,000ft.*_

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...-eyes-asia-pacific-deals-with-t129s-a-445587/

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## fatman17

Gryphon said:


> _Speaking at the IQPC Military Helicopter conference in London, the commander of Pakistan Army Aviation, Major General Nasir D Shah, said that a number of platform options are being considered to augment its current Bell AH-1 Cobras, *its already arrived and soon-to-be inducted Mil Mi-35s*, and its soon to be delivered Bell AH-1Z Viper platforms._
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/77493/pakistan-evaluating-new-attack-helicopter-options


Soon to be means not delivered so far.


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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> Soon to be means not delivered so far.


They were delivered by the antonov last year...I hv few contacts at Lhr airport and two of them confirmed that...maybe they will take part in 23rd march parade?


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Soon to be means not delivered so far.





Hodor said:


> They were delivered by the antonov last year...I hv few contacts at Lhr airport and two of them confirmed that...maybe they will take part in 23rd march parade?



It says "its *already arrived* and soon to be inducted Mi-35s". Pretty obvious from *the statement* that these have arrived. 
Also mentions the vipers and call them as "soon to be delivered" so one can see the difference here as well.


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## BHarwana

Mi35m were delivered to Pakistan in August 2017


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## python-000

salam to all, dose anyone have any clarity about AH-1z viper are they coming or the contract is going to be canceled by the trump Govt !!!


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## fatman17

python-000 said:


> salam to all, dose anyone have any clarity about AH-1z viper are they coming or the contract is going to be canceled by the trump Govt !!!


Mil - aid is suspended


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> It says "its *already arrived* and soon to be inducted Mi-35s". Pretty obvious from *the statement* that these have arrived.
> Also mentions the vipers and call them as "soon to be delivered" so one can see the difference here as well.


There is no evidence of their delivery. Why no pictures. What's so hush hush about 4 helos.


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## BHarwana

Proof of both MI-35M and J-10 are at this link below.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.MPRT.KD?locations=PK


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## Arsalan

BHarwana said:


> Proof of both MI-35M and J-10 are at this link below.
> 
> https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.MPRT.KD?locations=PK


Where is the proof in that link exactly? It just shows the SIPRI site quoting total spending not any details of a system. Will you point us out to the actual information as you have claimed?


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## BHarwana

Arsalan said:


> Where is the proof in that link exactly? It just shows the SIPRI site quoting total spending not any details of a system. Will you point us out to the actual information as you have claimed?


This is the spending on defence imports. J-10 deal 2010 price 1.4 billion. look at the 2010 spike it is the same difference. Mi35M deal signed 2015 paid in 2016 price Mi35m $153 million the difference in 2015 and 2016 calculate that. My point is that now you experts just keep debunking every thing even with a valid links.


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## Arsalan

BHarwana said:


> This is the spending on defence imports. J-10 deal 2010 price 1.4 billion. look at the 2010 spike it is the same difference. Mi35M deal signed 2015 paid in 2016 price Mi35m $153 million the difference in 2015 and 2016 calculate that. My point is that now you experts just keep debunking every thing even with a valid links.


Stop misguiding the people!
You claim that a link that mentions a total spending and claim it to be proof of spending on a specific article! "CLAIM IT TO BE PROOF" is the key part here! 
Post rated for being irresponsible and misguiding but more so because of it being purposely like that!!


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## BHarwana

the foreign import cost raise about $200 plus million from 2015 to 2016 so what else came for that money if not Mi35M. Please point out that thing. If you need further info please visit Finance ministry site and red the defence budget allocation of that year.



Arsalan said:


> Stop misguiding the people!
> You claim that a link that mentions a total spending and claim it to be proof of spending on a specific article! "CLAIM IT TO BE PROOF" is the key part here!
> Post rated for being irresponsible and misguiding but more so because of it being purposely like that!!



Here is link of Mi35M deliver and now you stop misguiding people.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/08/pakistan-receives-4-advanced-attack-helicopters-from-russia/


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## Arsalan

BHarwana said:


> the foreign import cost raise about $200 plus million from 2015 to 2016 so what else came for that money if not Mi35M. Please point out that thing. If you need further info please visit Finance ministry site and red the defence budget allocation of that year.


I am not debating whether the Mi 35 came or not, my simple point is that you cannot post link of a spending and CLAIM that it is for a certain equipment. YOU MAY SUGGEST THAT IT IS MOST LIKELY FOR THAT PARTICULAR SYSTEM but posting the link in a online claiming it to be a PROOF is purposely misguiding the members here. Avoid that going forward as well.


@waz @The Eagle @Slav Defence @WebMaster


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## BHarwana

Arsalan said:


> Stop misguiding the people!
> You claim that a link that mentions a total spending and claim it to be proof of spending on a specific article! "CLAIM IT TO BE PROOF" is the key part here!
> Post rated for being irresponsible and misguiding but more so because of it being purposely like that!!


Why the hell you gave me a negative rating are you mentally retarded? @WebMaster Please check these kids on PDF.

WTF a negative rating for discussion? If some is not agreeing to your argument this is how you stroogs work?

My point is 100% valid and the info was told by a DEPO Gen. that Pakistan has purchased MI35M.

If you don't apologize I will quit the forum because you are wrong and I am not going to tolerate this discrimination.

I have given you a link of Mi35M delivery and Now you prove it was not delivered or ban your self for spreading misinformation.

Tracking weapons purchases through budget is most used technique in the world .

@Arsalan provide me link where it says Pakistan has not made the purchase.

Where is your link I am waiting for it that says MI35 order was canceled?

I know very well the mental level of so called experts here. they don't know a thing about defence.

@Arsalan here is another link of the purchase.

http://www.janes.com/article/73439/russia-delivers-four-mi-35m-helos-to-pakistan-says-report

@Arsalan here is another link 
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....akistan-to-receive-four-mi-35m-helos-in-2017/

Now you noob give me link where this order was canceled. or apologize for being a noob.

@Arsalan Here is another link that Pakistan made the purchase.
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20421/Pakistan_Receives_Four_Russian_Mi_35M_Choppers#.Wn2SM3yYOUk

Where is your link that Pakistan canceled the order placed in 2015

My link are all verified defence news website. Now you give me link where this order was canceled ????????????????????????

Reactions: Negative Rating Negative Rating:
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## Arsalan

BHarwana said:


> Here is link of Mi35M deliver and now you stop misguiding people.
> 
> https://thediplomat.com/2017/08/pakistan-receives-4-advanced-attack-helicopters-from-russia/


As i have already said, i am not debating whether they have been delivered or not and if you want to know my views regarding status, you may read post#3899!

The problem with your post is more about the absurdity of the post where you post a link of an irrelevant site and claim that to be a proof of something. It is nothing but misguiding the people PURPOSELY!!


Again, if you want to know my views of whether these have been delivered or not, you may read the initial post on this matter.


Arsalan said:


> It says "its *already arrived* and soon to be inducted Mi-35s". Pretty obvious from *the statement* that these have arrived.
> Also mentions the vipers and call them as "soon to be delivered" so one can see the difference here as well.



It is not that we disagree here but it is they attempt to make fool of the members by posting some link that do not even mentions the word J10 or Mi35 and claim it to be proof of DELIVERY of the said systems.


----------



## BHarwana

Arsalan said:


> As i have already said, i am not debating whether they have been delivered or not and if you want to know my views regarding status, you may read post#3899!
> 
> The problem with your post is more about the absurdity of the post where you post a link of an irrelevant site and claim that to be a proof of something. It is nothing but misguiding the people PURPOSELY!!
> 
> 
> Again, if you want to know my views of whether these have been delivered or not, you may read the initial post on this matter.
> 
> 
> It is not that we disagree here but it is they attempt to make fool of the members by posting some link that do not even mentions the word J10 or Mi35 and claim it to be proof of DELIVERY of the said systems.


You debate it or not that is valid proof to support my argument. I know you noob experts hate when I provide counter evidence. But you people are spreading the misinformation with out any proof. You are not debating me because you have no proof of your claim and This issue will be resolved or I am not going to stop either ban me or I will stay on your back.



Arsalan said:


> Do share a link of my post where i have said that these have NOT been delivered. Plus, your initial claim includes both Mi 35 and J10 so if you REALLY want to go down that road, do share the links for J10s too.
> 
> You may claim that you think J10 have been delivered, you may say that you KNOW Mi35 have been delivered (AGAIN, i also said the same) but it is inappropriate to post a link and fool the people claiming that this is a proof of Mi35 and J10 delivery while there is absolutely NOTHING related to Mi35 and J10 in that post.
> Try thinking about it with a cool head and you may understand what the exact problem here was



You experts are just fan boys. About J-10 look at the budget link I provided and it is defence imports and in 2010 the budget hike is more than any year to the exact amount of J-10.

Now don't run like a chicken. Give me a link or admit that you are a noob. Because crossed the line for being a fan boy and I am being fair.


----------



## Arsalan

BHarwana said:


> Why the hell you gave me a negative rating are you mentally retarded? @WebMaster Please check these kids on PDF.
> 
> WTF a negative rating for discussion? If some is not agreeing to your argument this is how you stroogs work?
> 
> My point is 100% valid and the info was told by a DEPO Gen. that Pakistan has purchased MI35M.
> 
> If you don't apologize I will quit the forum because you are wrong and I am not going to tolerate this discrimination.
> 
> I have given you a link of Mi35M delivery and Now you prove it was not delivered or ban your self for spreading misinformation.
> 
> Tracking weapons purchases through budget is most used technique in the world .
> 
> @Arsalan provide me link where it says Pakistan has not made the purchase.
> 
> Where is your link I am waiting for it that says MI35 order was canceled?
> 
> I know very well the mental level of so called experts here. they don't know a thing about defence.
> 
> @Arsalan here is another link of the purchase.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/73439/russia-delivers-four-mi-35m-helos-to-pakistan-says-report
> 
> @Arsalan here is another link
> https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....akistan-to-receive-four-mi-35m-helos-in-2017/
> 
> Now you noob give me link where this order was canceled. or apologize for being a noob.
> 
> @Arsalan Here is another link that Pakistan made the purchase.
> http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20421/Pakistan_Receives_Four_Russian_Mi_35M_Choppers#.Wn2SM3yYOUk
> 
> Where is your link that Pakistan canceled the order placed in 2015
> 
> My link are all verified defence news website. Now you give me link where this order was canceled ????????????????????????


Do share a link of my post where i have said that these have NOT been delivered. Plus, your initial claim includes both Mi 35 and J10 so if you REALLY want to go down that road, do share the links for J10s too.

You may claim that you think J10 have been delivered, you may say that you KNOW Mi35 have been delivered (AGAIN, i also said the same) but it is inappropriate to post a link and fool the people claiming that this is a proof of Mi35 and J10 delivery while there is absolutely NOTHING related to Mi35 and J10 in that post.
Try thinking about it with a cool head and you may understand what the exact problem here was.

_Ignoring all the rants and personal attack_



BHarwana said:


> You debate it or not that is valid proof to support my argument. I know you noob experts hate when I provide counter evidence. But you people are spreading the misinformation with out any proof. You are not debating me because you have no proof of your claim and This issue will be resolved or I am not going to stop either ban me or I will stay on your back.


The post i have marked have NO COUNTER EVIDENCE of J10 or Mi35 delivery or have it? Do share.

I might as well thank your later posts as i also think the same and have believed them and read long before you shared these in this conversation we are having here. However the post i marked deserved what it got and you may realize it when you think about it;

The post was claimed as a proof of J10 and Mi35 delivery
The post do not have ANY mention of any of the systems


----------



## BHarwana

Arsalan said:


> Do share a link of my post where i have said that these have NOT been delivered. Plus, your initial claim includes both Mi 35 and J10 so if you REALLY want to go down that road, do share the links for J10s too.
> 
> You may claim that you think J10 have been delivered, you may say that you KNOW Mi35 have been delivered (AGAIN, i also said the same) but it is inappropriate to post a link and fool the people claiming that this is a proof of Mi35 and J10 delivery while there is absolutely NOTHING related to Mi35 and J10 in that post.
> Try thinking about it with a cool head and you may understand what the exact problem here was.



I have already made a J-10 purchase thread and the link is there go to PAF section and you will find it.



Arsalan said:


> Ignoring all the rants and personal attack


You started the personal attack miss using your authority.


----------



## Arsalan

BHarwana said:


> I have already made a J-10 purchase thread and the link is there go to PAF section and you will find it.


I hope that too is not based on this same PROOF!!



> You started the personal attack miss using your authority.


There was and still isn't anything personal about it!


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## BHarwana

Here is a J-10 link

- FC-20 / J-10B Fighter Jet. PAF is also in process of receiving its first FC-20 / J-10B fighter jet which is powered by indigenous WS-10 engine.

https://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?id=85&o=t-article

Here is the import spending from 2010








https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.MPRT.KD?locations=PK


This is the most valid claim supported by evidence.

@Arsalan 

How you import military equipment?

You sign MOU then you sign LOI and then you add that amount in budget.

Now you provide me a link that this info is incorrect.

@Arsalan where is your link??????????? Now please validate your info with a Govt link like I have done.

@WebMaster If these experts fail to provide their valid links please remove this negative rating and please stop them from misusing their authority.


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## muhammadali233

BHarwana said:


> Here is a J-10 link
> 
> - FC-20 / J-10B Fighter Jet. PAF is also in process of receiving its first FC-20 / J-10B fighter jet which is powered by indigenous WS-10 engine.
> 
> https://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?id=85&o=t-article
> 
> Here is the import spending from 2010
> 
> View attachment 452838
> 
> 
> 
> https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.MPRT.KD?locations=PK
> 
> 
> This is the most valid claim supported by evidence.
> 
> @Arsalan
> 
> How you import military equipment?
> 
> You sign MOU then you sign LOI and then you add that amount in budget.
> 
> Now you provide me a link that this info is incorrect.
> 
> @Arsalan where is your link??????????? Now please validate your info with a Govt link like I have done.
> 
> @WebMaster If these experts fail to provide their valid links please remove this negative rating and please stop them from misusing their authority.


that is when pak purchased f-16's i guess.that is the surge.


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## BHarwana

muhammadali233 said:


> that is when pak purchased f-16's i guess.that is the surge.


yes my friend you are guessing and I am being discriminated with a valid link because difference of opinion.

Pakistani F-16 were subsidized by USA govt and this surge is the exact amount that was decided for J-10's which was 1.4 billion usd.

There are only 2 proofs of any purchase one is a valid news and second is confirmation if payment and my both sources are valid. Now I should be provided a valid source to prove me wrong is that a wrong demand?

Or giving me a negative rating was hurting someone's fan boy feelings.

surge from 2015 to 2016 validates Mi35m purchase along the news reports. the 2010 surge validates J-10 purchase because surge is close to the amounts of the purchases.


----------



## fatman17

BHarwana said:


> Why the hell you gave me a negative rating are you mentally retarded? @WebMaster Please check these kids on PDF.
> 
> WTF a negative rating for discussion? If some is not agreeing to your argument this is how you stroogs work?
> 
> My point is 100% valid and the info was told by a DEPO Gen. that Pakistan has purchased MI35M.
> 
> If you don't apologize I will quit the forum because you are wrong and I am not going to tolerate this discrimination.
> 
> I have given you a link of Mi35M delivery and Now you prove it was not delivered or ban your self for spreading misinformation.
> 
> Tracking weapons purchases through budget is most used technique in the world .
> 
> @Arsalan provide me link where it says Pakistan has not made the purchase.
> 
> Where is your link I am waiting for it that says MI35 order was canceled?
> 
> I know very well the mental level of so called experts here. they don't know a thing about defence.
> 
> @Arsalan here is another link of the purchase.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/73439/russia-delivers-four-mi-35m-helos-to-pakistan-says-report
> 
> @Arsalan here is another link
> https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....akistan-to-receive-four-mi-35m-helos-in-2017/
> 
> Now you noob give me link where this order was canceled. or apologize for being a noob.
> 
> @Arsalan Here is another link that Pakistan made the purchase.
> http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20421/Pakistan_Receives_Four_Russian_Mi_35M_Choppers#.Wn2SM3yYOUk
> 
> Where is your link that Pakistan canceled the order placed in 2015
> 
> My link are all verified defence news website. Now you give me link where this order was canceled ????????????????????????


Do me a favour. Please quit. Stop maligning the members unnecessarily. Point is simple. Yes many sources claim the Mi35 delivery but none show pictures of Mi35 in PA livery, usually a picture is the best proof of such. If anyone has please upload it to kill the controversy. For eg, pictures of AH1Z were released in PA livery even before delivery of the helos. There are many other examples but for some reason no pictures of MI35 available even from the manufacturer.

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## AMG_12

fatman17 said:


> Do me a favour. Please quit. Stop maligning the members unnecessarily. Point is simple. Yes many sources claim the Mi35 delivery but none show pictures of Mi35 in PA livery, usually a picture is the best proof of such. If anyone has please upload it to kill the controversy. For eg, pictures of AH1Z were released in PA livery even before delivery of the helos. There are many other examples but for some reason no pictures of MI35 available even from the manufacturer.


He does this in almost all threads and stick to his "claims" and "sources" 
Last time he restarted the J-10 saga and despite reassurances from senior, knowledgeable members, he kept on squabbling with no actual info.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Looks like J10B is back in picture folks 

Any chance we can revive those illustrious J10B threads

However the article does not have a date which is bothersome , as it could be just a very old article from 2008


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## BHarwana

fatman17 said:


> Do me a favour. Please quit. Stop maligning the members unnecessarily. Point is simple. Yes many sources claim the Mi35 delivery but none show pictures of Mi35 in PA livery, usually a picture is the best proof of such. If anyone has please upload it to kill the controversy. For eg, pictures of AH1Z were released in PA livery even before delivery of the helos. There are many other examples but for some reason no pictures of MI35 available even from the manufacturer.



Why would PA publish pictures of the helicopters for you? What are you a COAS. No source is making claims. Every source is quoting a Govt officials. Read carefully. There are reason for not releasing Pictures of some sensitive equipment and few obsessed members don't understand it.



Game.Invade said:


> knowledgeable members, he kept on squabbling with no actual info.



Please care to define a knowledgeable member?


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## fatman17

BHarwana said:


> Why would PA publish pictures of the helicopters for you? What are you a COAS. No source is making claims. Every source is quoting a Govt officials. Read carefully. There are reason for not releasing Pictures of some sensitive equipment and few obsessed members don't understand it.
> 
> 
> 
> Please care to define a knowledgeable member?


Time for you to grow up.

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## fatman17

Game.Invade said:


> He does this in almost all threads and stick to his "claims" and "sources"
> Last time he restarted the J-10 saga and despite reassurances from senior, knowledgeable members, he kept on squabbling with no actual info.


Thanks, my bad for interacting with him.

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## BHarwana

fatman17 said:


> Time for you to grow up.


How should I grow up? With valid links I should grow up and you have nothing to support your statement. Seriously plz give me a break and look who is providing valid links. It is your turn to provide me a valid link.


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## fatman17

BHarwana said:


> How should I grow up? With valid links I should grow up and you have nothing to support your statement. Seriously plz give me a break and look who is providing valid links. It is your turn to provide me a valid link.


Browse the board.


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## fatman17

To know and know that you know, not to know and know that you don't know, that is to know.

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## BHarwana

fatman17 said:


> To know and know that you know, not to know and know that you don't know, that is to know.


My friend it is very simple. There was news that Pakistan purchased the Mi35m then the deliveries were verified by a Gen from DEPO at DESI 2017 to the press now If there are no images of those helicopters or they didn't displayed on the parade is up to the Army to disclose what they want to show or what they don't. Pakistan has Chinese UAV systems but they are not displayed on the Parade or there are no images. until one crashed near mianwali air base this info was not known. So you tell me what you call valid?

There is a thread here that Pakistan has rejected the Z-10. Now where is a valid link to that info. that is a all speculation thread running here with no head and tail. there are post on different defence site that Pakistan has purchased those platforms.


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## Arsalan

BHarwana said:


> @Arsalan where is your link??????????? Now please validate your info with a Govt link like I have done.



WHAT INFO? Can you PLEASE read my posts and at least let me know what you think my INFO is? Where have i said that Mi35 or J10 are being bought or not being bought? The debate is NOT ABOUT PROCUREMENT but the deception you try by posting false link and claiming it to be a proof of your claim. The post, that link had NOTHING to do with j10 or mi35 at all yet you go out and lie to the forum claiming it to be some sort of proof. The links you posted later were relevant and that is why i never objected to them!!
_
It is too difficult for you to understand i suppose! 
_
Any, this is enough for me and i have realized there is no point explaining the problem to you.


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## BHarwana

Arsalan said:


> WHAT INFO? Can you PLEASE read my posts and at least let me know what you think my INFO is? Where have i said that Mi35 or J10 are being bought or not being bought? The debate is NOT ABOUT PROCUREMENT but the deception you try by posting false link and claiming it to be a proof of your claim. The post, that link had NOTHING to do with j10 or mi35 at all yet you go out and lie to the forum claiming it to be some sort of proof. The links you posted later were relevant and that is why i never objected to them!!
> _
> It is too difficult for you to understand i suppose! _



My friend the link I post is from world bank and is showing the funds for weapons import with date time and amount now how is that not a valid link can you please tell me that. They are not civilian products import funds. and are in years these weapons were purchased? I cannot understand how is that not related? I gave the links and also provided the budget report to support my link.


----------



## Arsalan

BHarwana said:


> My friend the link I post is from world bank and is showing the funds for weapons import with date time and amount now how is that not a valid link can you please tell me that. They are not civilian products import funds. and are in years these weapons were purchased? I cannot understand how is that not related? I gave the links and also provided the budget report to support my link.


SIR you CLAIMED that link to be a PROOF of J10 and Mi35 procurement while that was ONLY about military spending in general and there was absolutely NO MENTION of either J10 or Mi35, this is not the whole problem, the worst part is that you knew about it already. 

It is one thing to support your argument with links like you have done later on (the posts that i have never pointed as being put of line) and it is another thing to to share budget values and claim that spending to be proof of procurement of one particular system. 

Again, please think about it with a cool head and drop me a message if there is still any doubt but i will move on for now. Have other things to do and i am explain the situation the best i could.


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## BHarwana

Arsalan said:


> SIR you CLAIMED that link to be a PROOF of J10 and Mi35 procurement while that was ONLY about military spending in general and there was absolutely NO MENTION of either J10 or Mi35, this is not the whole problem, the worst part is that you knew about it already.
> 
> It is one thing to support your argument with links like you have done later on (the posts that i have never pointed as being put of line) and it is another thing to to share budget values and claim that spending to be proof of procurement of one particular system.
> 
> Again, please think about it with a cool head and drop me a message if there is still any doubt but i will move on for now. Have other things to do and i am explain the situation the best i could.



Sir if I am posting a budget spending link that is to prove that the money went for the weapons systems I am saying that they were purchased. Now tell me have i given a spending on imports of fruits or vegetables? I gave the link to show the money went for defence purchase and please tell me how is that not link to prove that weapons were purchased. This is not my first post in this thread I posted the link to provide the money proof and it is there in the respective years with clear surges in purchase.


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## WebMaster

Guys, sometimes agree to disagree and don't derail threads. Regards

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## Zarvan

Pakistan needs to decide fast about helicopter and if T-129 is decided than we should go ahead with the deal fast. Also time to produce at least one Military Transport Helicopter in Pakistan.


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## Arsalan

BHarwana said:


> Sir if I am posting a budget spending link that is to prove that the money went for the weapons systems I am saying that they were purchased. Now tell me have i given a spending on imports of fruits or vegetables? I gave the link to show the money went for defence purchase and please tell me how is that not link to prove that weapons were purchased. This is not my first post in this thread I posted the link to provide the money proof and it is there in the respective years with clear surges in purchase.


Sir the link DO NOT PROVES that J10 and Mi35 were purchased, it do not mentions them and that is what you claimed it to prove as far as i can remember. But as webby said, lets agree to disagree and i am sure we wont be able to explain it to you anyway (despite many people having tried that) so i will just leave it at that.


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## BHarwana

Arsalan said:


> Sir the link DO NOT PROVES that J10 and Mi35 were purchased, it do not mentions them and that is what you claimed it to prove as far as i can remember. But as webby said, lets agree to disagree and i am sure we wont be able to explain it to you anyway (despite many people having tried that) so i will just leave it at that.


I am no more discussing it the webmaster has said it is derailing the thread so lets leave it.

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## Tipu7

Fellas, Mi35M are in Pakistan though their is no 'link' to prove that. Pics are there, I have seen one but cannot share due to 'I have to show you but I have to kill you' argument.
But still kindly avoid fighting over their presence/absence case. They will be shown to public on 23rd March this year.

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## Arsalan

Tipu7 said:


> Fellas, Mi35M are in Pakistan though their is no 'link' to prove that. Pics are there, I have seen one but cannot share due to 'I have to show you but I have to kill you' argument.
> But still kindly avoid fighting over their presence/absence case. They will be shown to public on 23rd March this year.


Yup, that can be verified from the statement of Maj. Gen. Nasir D Shah! Hopefully we will have the pics and plenty of them to view on March 23 parade!


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## AMG_12

BHarwana said:


> Why would PA publish pictures of the helicopters for you? What are you a COAS. No source is making claims. Every source is quoting a Govt officials. Read carefully. There are reason for not releasing Pictures of some sensitive equipment and few obsessed members don't understand it.
> 
> 
> 
> Please care to define a knowledgeable member?


Members who know what they're talking about, members who're not concerned about the number of posts or likes, members who have served in the military or have a know-how of military affairs, members who're not dependent on Sipri, Jane's or Wikipedia to back their claims.

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## HRK

BHarwana said:


> how is that not a valid link can you please tell me that.


because it does not show what weapon was purchase ... it is only showing the accumulated value of Imports and for this citing SIPRI as source






So plz go to SIPRI database and post the screenshot where J-10 is listed .....

hopefully you will try to understand your *assumption* based on the value figure in $ for a particular year *does not translate *into FACT about J-10 PURCHASE


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## BHarwana

HRK said:


> because it does not show what weapon was purchase ... it is only showing the accumulated value of Imports and for this citing SIPRI as source
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So plz go to SIPRI database and post the screenshot were J-10 is listed .....
> 
> hopefully you will try to understand your *assumption* based on the value figure in $ for a particular year *does not translate *into FACT about J-10 PURCHASE



Quote me in the PAF section and I will provide you with facts. @WebMaster has asked not to derail this thread any more and that goes for you as well my friend. Plus prepare your link that J-10 were never bought as well.



Game.Invade said:


> Members who know what they're talking about, members who're not concerned about the number of posts or likes, members who have served in the military or have a know-how of military affairs, members who're not dependent on Sipri, Jane's or Wikipedia to back their claims.


You mean to say the member who say that their Chacha jee told them?


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## HRK

BHarwana said:


> Quote me in the PAF section


I have no need to quote you further on this topic

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## araz

BHarwana said:


> Why the hell you gave me a negative rating are you mentally retarded? @WebMaster Please check these kids on PDF.
> 
> WTF a negative rating for discussion? If some is not agreeing to your argument this is how you stroogs work?
> 
> My point is 100% valid and the info was told by a DEPO Gen. that Pakistan has purchased MI35M.
> 
> If you don't apologize I will quit the forum because you are wrong and I am not going to tolerate this discrimination.
> 
> I have given you a link of Mi35M delivery and Now you prove it was not delivered or ban your self for spreading misinformation.
> 
> Tracking weapons purchases through budget is most used technique in the world .
> 
> @Arsalan provide me link where it says Pakistan has not made the purchase.
> 
> Where is your link I am waiting for it that says MI35 order was canceled?
> 
> I know very well the mental level of so called experts here. they don't know a thing about defence.
> 
> @Arsalan here is another link of the purchase.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/73439/russia-delivers-four-mi-35m-helos-to-pakistan-says-report
> 
> @Arsalan here is another link
> https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....akistan-to-receive-four-mi-35m-helos-in-2017/
> 
> Now you noob give me link where this order was canceled. or apologize for being a noob.
> 
> @Arsalan Here is another link that Pakistan made the purchase.
> http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20421/Pakistan_Receives_Four_Russian_Mi_35M_Choppers#.Wn2SM3yYOUk
> 
> Where is your link that Pakistan canceled the order placed in 2015
> 
> My link are all verified defence news website. Now you give me link where this order was canceled ????????????????????????


Well here is a other one for name calling and being abusive. You need to learn to behave yourself and not name call senior posters. Unlike Arsalan I will give you 24 hours. If you apologize to the relevant poster for being abusive, I will retract this rating, otherwise it stands. No one stops you from quitting the forum. You cqme of your own will you can leave whenever you want. However while on the forum you will respect the seniors. You have been callour and disregarding to otber posters who are professionals and a lot senior to you.
A

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## BHarwana

araz said:


> Well here is a other one for name calling and being abusive. You need to learn to behave yourself and not name call senior posters. Unlike Arsalan I will give you 24 hours. If you apologize to the relevant poster for being abusive, I will retract this rating, otherwise it stands. No one stops you from quitting the forum. You cqme of your own will you can leave whenever you want. However while on the forum you will respect the seniors. You have been callour and disregarding to otber posters who are professionals and a lot senior to you.
> A



be my guest and let it stand.


----------



## python-000

whats is this!!!




are we getting them ?


----------



## ZedZeeshan

python-000 said:


> whats is this!!!
> View attachment 454010
> 
> are we getting them ?


Its a very old Pic.. i think Dubai airshow...


----------



## python-000

ZedZeeshan said:


> Its a very old Pic.. i think Dubai airshow...


OK, then what is our Army officers doing in front of this beast !


----------



## ZedZeeshan

python-000 said:


> OK, then what is our Army officers doing in front of this beast !


In exhibition delegations and officers do check equipment of various vendors and countries however Pakistan did expressed its interest in Mi28 but till date nothing materialized..


----------



## python-000

ZedZeeshan said:


> In exhibition delegations and officers do check equipment of various vendors and countries however Pakistan did expressed its interest in Mi28 but till date nothing materialized..


Hmmm, so sad , If we get 1 or 2 Sqd of these then it will be a great threat for our enemies.


----------



## araz

python-000 said:


> Hmmm, so sad , If we get 1 or 2 Sqd of these then it will be a great threat for our enemies.


You need to have 2 things to buy something. Firstly money and secondly a willing seller. The first can influence the second to some extent however, international policies determine which weapons are sold to whom. In this case you have neither the first and on that account the second.
A


----------



## ZedZeeshan

araz said:


> You need to have 2 things to buy something. Firstly money and secondly a willing seller. The first can influence the second to some extent however, international policies determine which weapons are sold to whom. In this case you have neither the first and on that account the second.
> A


I personally dont fully agree with you in this case because Russia is bit flexible but yes we need to have hard cash to make it materialize otherwise its just a discussion on coffee table..


----------



## araz

ZedZeeshan said:


> I personally dont fully agree with you in this case because Russia is bit flexible but yes we need to have hard cash to make it materialize otherwise its just a discussion on coffee table..


Read the post again. I have highlighted that!!!


----------



## fatman17

python-000 said:


> whats is this!!!
> View attachment 454010
> 
> are we getting them ?


Old pic


----------



## MiG-35-BD

Should Pakistan Army Aviation rethink getting an attack helicopter altogether? Instead go for an A-10 type?

Here is an interesting view:
*But the larger question confronting Schoomaker, Rumsfeld, and others in the defense establishment, including members of Congress, is whether the guerrilla war in Iraq is demonstrating that no helicopter, regardless of how fancy, can survive on today's battlefields.

With a weapon not much more sophisticated than a hand grenade shot out of a peashooter, guerrillas in Iraq have damaged and downed the Army's most advanced attack helicopter, the Longbow Apache, as well as simpler troop transports such as the Chinooks and Blackhawks. This vulnerability could have been predicted by anyone who bothered to study the fate of U.S. helicopters in the Vietnam War. Back then, Vietcong and North Vietnamese soldiers not only downed helicopters with the rocket-propelled grenades now threatening helicopters in Iraq. The Vietnamese also learned how to shoot the copters down by simply lying on their backs and grouping their rifle bullets in the path of the slow fliers they could hear coming. If such simple ground fire is so lethal, how can the $59 million Comanche or any other helicopter survive the deadlier shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles now being sold all around the world?*
*
http://www.g2mil.com/comanche.htm*


----------



## Shabi1

pla-mkii said:


> Should Pakistan Army Aviation rethink getting an attack helicopter altogether? Instead go for an A-10 type?
> 
> Here is an interesting view:
> *But the larger question confronting Schoomaker, Rumsfeld, and others in the defense establishment, including members of Congress, is whether the guerrilla war in Iraq is demonstrating that no helicopter, regardless of how fancy, can survive on today's battlefields.
> 
> With a weapon not much more sophisticated than a hand grenade shot out of a peashooter, guerrillas in Iraq have damaged and downed the Army's most advanced attack helicopter, the Longbow Apache, as well as simpler troop transports such as the Chinooks and Blackhawks. This vulnerability could have been predicted by anyone who bothered to study the fate of U.S. helicopters in the Vietnam War. Back then, Vietcong and North Vietnamese soldiers not only downed helicopters with the rocket-propelled grenades now threatening helicopters in Iraq. The Vietnamese also learned how to shoot the copters down by simply lying on their backs and grouping their rifle bullets in the path of the slow fliers they could hear coming. If such simple ground fire is so lethal, how can the $59 million Comanche or any other helicopter survive the deadlier shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles now being sold all around the world?
> 
> http://www.g2mil.com/comanche.htm*



Pakistan has Armed UCAVs and is in the process of inducting even more advanced versions. So for its needs doesnt need a dedicated aircraft like the A-10. PAF doctrine dictates that all new fighter jet inductions be multi role capable.


----------



## ZedZeeshan

Shabi1 said:


> Pakistan has Armed UCAVs and is in the process of inducting even more advanced versions. So for its needs doesnt need a dedicated aircraft like the A-10. PAF doctrine dictates that all new fighter jet inductions be multi role capable.


For the sake of Taliban yes UCAV is better option but if you look towards India's cold start Doctrine its the best platform which can give a blow under a jaw...


----------



## Human One

fatman17 said:


> Europeans praise Pakistan for rescue of Polish, French mountaineers from killer mountain Nanga Parbat
> 2 Feb, 2018
> View attachment 451334



Does Pakistan have dedicated search and rescue helicopter units?


----------



## ZedZeeshan

Human One said:


> Does Pakistan have dedicated search and rescue helicopter units?


No

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## BHarwana

*Proof of MI-35-M helicopters delivery to Pakistan. As previously few members disagreed with the info here is another update on the issue.*

"Last year, we handed *four Mil Mi-35M combat* and cargo helicopters over to our partners," he went on to say. "I am sure that they have been in demand as far as counterterrorism operations go, as our colleagues told us today," the Russian foreign minister noted.


http://tass.com/economy/990860


Hope this will satisfy few stubborn members.

These are the words of Russian foreign minister.

said on 20 Feb 2018.

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## fatman17

BHarwana said:


> *Proof of MI-35-M helicopters delivery to Pakistan. As previously few members disagreed with the info here is another update on the issue.*
> 
> "Last year, we handed *four Mil Mi-35M combat* and cargo helicopters over to our partners," he went on to say. "I am sure that they have been in demand as far as counterterrorism operations go, as our colleagues told us today," the Russian foreign minister noted.
> 
> 
> http://tass.com/economy/990860
> 
> 
> Hope this will satisfy few stubborn members.
> 
> These are the words of Russian foreign minister.
> 
> said on 20 Feb 2018.


Never denied the agreement to sell but Still no pictures.


----------



## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Never denied the agreement to sell but Still no pictures.


And yes I'm very stubborn for 100% proof.

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## BHarwana

fatman17 said:


> And yes I'm very stubborn for 100% proof.



Sorry my friend you are not just stubborn but in a hurry as well. The statement is not talking about agreement but delivery. They handed them to Pakistan. Kudos have a nice day. lol

Read and comment. Don't just comment. Have a nice day.


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## fatman17

BHarwana said:


> Sorry my friend you are not just stubborn but in a hurry as well. The statement is not talking about agreement but delivery. They handed them to Pakistan. Kudos have a nice day. lol
> 
> Read and comment. Don't just comment. Have a nice day.


You're such a child. Grow up.

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## fatman17

#Pakistan is now preparing to induct the AH-1Z Viper:

The Pakistan Army’s Military Engineer Services branch released a tender for the construction of a hangar, tarmac and maintenance facilities in Multan for the Textron Bell AH-1Z Viper.
#PakArmy #PakistanZindabad https://t.co/r381YAX6xI

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## Sine Nomine

araz said:


> You need to have 2 things to buy something. Firstly money and secondly a willing seller. The first can influence the second to some extent however, international policies determine which weapons are sold to whom. In this case you have neither the first and on that account the second.
> A


This is savage.


----------



## khanasifm

The hell fire [emoji91] bring a long range weapon with 6-10 km range vs tows or baktarakin 3-4 km range

Lastly March 23 parade perhaps will disclose what delivered mi-35, ah-1z, jf b model and new air defense systems etc


----------



## ziaulislam

khanasifm said:


> The hell fire [emoji91] bring a long range weapon with 6-10 km range vs tows or baktarakin 3-4 km range
> 
> Lastly March 23 parade perhaps will disclose what delivered mi-35, ah-1z, jf b model and new air defense systems etc


what will be the role of older cobra gunships..will they be retired?


----------



## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> what will be the role of older cobra gunships..will they be retired?



Most likely phased out once the T129s are inducted in numbers. The main issue I think is being unable to acquire spares for such an old machine and if the serviceability rates are too low, then might be cheaper to retire them. Its possible they might keep a small numbers flying by cannibalizing some for parts or acquiring used ones from Bahrain and Turkey (maybe even Japan!!) once those countries retire them.


----------



## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> Most likely phased out once the T129s are inducted in numbers. The main issue I think is being unable to acquire spares for such an old machine and if the serviceability rates are too low, then might be cheaper to retire them. Its possible they might keep a small numbers flying by cannibalizing some for parts or acquiring used ones from Bahrain and Turkey (maybe even Japan!!) once those countries retire them.


i thought they will be huge amount of them in EDA stock for spares..i susa blocking spares


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## GriffinsRule

Just could be lack or shortage of viable spares too ... a few years back Turkey sent spare parts of AH-1Fs free of cost to Pakistan as well.


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## fatman17

There is no shortage of cobra spares, it all depends where one procures them, govt to govt or open commercial sources which can be expensive.


----------



## GriffinsRule

That means we might see them being retained in service for some time to come


----------



## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> There is no shortage of cobra spares, it all depends where one procures them, govt to govt or open commercial sources which can be expensive.



fatman17, is this true that our new AH-1Z's Vipers cant not fire sidewinders ?


----------



## YeBeWarned

fatman17 said:


> There is no shortage of cobra spares, it all depends where one procures them, govt to govt or open commercial sources which can be expensive.



It would be best to keep them up and running for years to come , Cobra's were effective against TTP in FATA , giving them to FC to guard and surveillance the Pakistan Afghan border will be a good idea, as the AH-Z1 are supposed to be stationed in Multan .



TOPGUN said:


> fatman17, is this true that our new AH-1Z's Vipers cant not fire sidewinders ?



I think they will be able to fire Sidewinders , I don't see a issue there for Americans to remove that Capability .


----------



## TOPGUN

Starlord said:


> It would be best to keep them up and running for years to come , Cobra's were effective against TTP in FATA , giving them to FC to guard and surveillance the Pakistan Afghan border will be a good idea, as the AH-Z1 are supposed to be stationed in Multan .
> 
> 
> 
> I think they will be able to fire Sidewinders , I don't see a issue there for Americans to remove that Capability .



We shall find out others here have stated otherwise.


----------



## YeBeWarned

TOPGUN said:


> We shall find out others here have stated otherwise.



soon enough my friend


----------



## khanasifm

??




__ https://www.facebook.com/


----------



## python-000

1 Question: dose Pakistan have any intentions or options for countring indian Apache ?


----------



## khanasifm

python-000 said:


> 1 Question: dose Pakistan have any intentions or options for countring indian Apache ?



RBs-70 mk3 with > 9 km range, fm-90 > 12 Km against heli and latest man-pads etc

https://saab.com/land/weapon-systems/ground-based-air-defence-missile-systems/rbs_70_ng/


----------



## python-000

khanasifm said:


> RBs-70 mk3 with > 9 km range, fm-90 > 12 Km against heli and latest man-pads etc
> 
> https://saab.com/land/weapon-systems/ground-based-air-defence-missile-systems/rbs_70_ng/


salam Bro, my question was not about air defense it was in terms of heavy Attack helicopters comparable with apache for PA.


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## khanasifm

python-000 said:


> salam Bro, my question was not about air defense it was in terms of heavy Attack helicopters comparable with apache for PA.



Countering ???

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## sparten

You don’t fly gunships against each other. You use ground and air based assets against them. Our Armoured formations have organic air defence units and have PAF A/C providing defence as well.

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## Arsalan

python-000 said:


> salam Bro, my question was not about air defense it was in terms of heavy Attack helicopters comparable with apache for PA.


Dear helicopters wont be used to COUNTER helicopters! It will be air-defense units that will be used to counter the attack helicopters. 
As for our own support units in shape of attack helicopters is concerned, Pakistan have received 3 of the 12 ordered Viper Cobra gun ships. Have evaluated Z10 from china and T129 from Turkey as well and it seems we may go ahead with T129. This is an ongoing process.

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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> Never denied the agreement to sell but Still no pictures.


Got a picture of PAA pilot flying Mi35 pre-delivery...but not allowed to share it.
And as I said earlier that I asked few sources who work at OPLA and they confirmed its delivery.

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## Imran Khan

python-000 said:


> 1 Question: dose Pakistan have any intentions or options for countring indian Apache ?


short range SAMs and AA guns are already there sir .

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/969665066508398592

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## fatman17

#Russia|n Mi-35Ms for Pakistan.Reminiscent of #Soviet Mi-24 trefoil desert livery-last pic.Bit ironic considering they were used against #Pakistan sponsored mujahideen at the time.Mi-35Ms might be used vs Pashtun tribesman in borderlands -same ones that fought #Soviets in the 80s https://t.co/uy0hK4d84g

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/969934936995135488

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> #Russia|n Mi-35Ms for Pakistan.Reminiscent of #Soviet Mi-24 trefoil desert livery-last pic.Bit ironic considering they were used against #Pakistan sponsored mujahideen at the time.Mi-35Ms might be used vs Pashtun tribesman in borderlands -same ones that fought #Soviets in the 80s https://t.co/uy0hK4d84g
> View attachment 457183
> View attachment 457184
> View attachment 457185



Exclusive pics of '*'what is believed to be''* Mi35M (Hind-E) gunship helicopters belonging to Pakistan army aviation delivered by Russia.






Pakistan placed order for 4 units and is interested to buy more units in near future.

So who knows


----------



## blinder

khanasifm said:


> Exclusive pics of '*'what is believed to be''* Mi35M (Hind-E) gunship helicopters belonging to Pakistan army aviation delivered by Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan placed order for 4 units and is interested to buy more units in near future.
> 
> So who knows



I have posted a photograph of one of these birds in another thread in September 2017 already, see:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russ...opters-to-pakistan.514519/page-9#post-9899389
Indeed not confirmed but this scheme resembles that used on many Mi-17s.


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

Certain models of helicopter gunships have air to air missile launch capability.

On the american Apache---a stinger can be loaded on that can be used against another helicopter, aircraft or other flying object like a drone.

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## Aamir Hussain

python-000 said:


> salam Bro, my question was not about air defense it was in terms of heavy Attack helicopters comparable with apache for PA.



You feel that we need to take on a helo to helo combat scenario? That is not done therefore we do not need to go head to head on that with our next door.... Furthermore, recent deployment of Helos in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria has shown some weak areas of Attack Helos that can be exploited against Indian Attack Helos as well. Man Pads, even RPG's have been used effectively to inflict significant damage to them in combat. 

Attack Helos are primarily used to clear the way for an armored thrust or blunt an armored attack other than their use in COIN Ops. Our terrain is almost flat in tank-able areas of Central Punjab and Desert Areas Cholistan and Thar. Very little cover available against man pads and RPG elements. 

PA will face the same challenge against India if they employ their small Attack Helo force in this way.

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## STRANGER BIRD

*

Pakistan army aviation Mi17 giving a lift to AH1 Cobra gunship.*

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## Human One

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Certain models of helicopter gunships have air to air missile launch capability.
> 
> On the american Apache---a stinger can be loaded on that can be used against another helicopter, aircraft or other flying object like a drone.



That's good. It's like the *AIM-92 Stinger* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-92_Stinger for use on helicopters and UAVs.

According to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_AH-1Z_Viper AH-1Zs can be armed with 2 AIM-9 Sidewinders.


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

Air to air helicopter attack against other aircraft would be a norm in the next 5 plus years.

Certain models of the Apache are capable of launching the stinger air to air missile as well as the AIM9---. The AIM9 is a serious problem for fixed wined aircraft because it has a range of around 20 miles---.

The air to air missile option is not available to all buyers of the Apache.

The other aircraft in this category are the russian Ka 52 and the Mi 28 but their air to air missile range is much shorter---.

As this option is not too old---so the actual usage of this capability would take its sweet time.

The RPG's have proven deadly during the 2nd Iraq war and before that in Somalia---launched from close proximity at helicopter hovering about the ground or above buildings---they have been taken out by the RPG's by targeting the TAIL ROTOR---the achilles heal of the helicopter---.

The Ka52 does not have a tail rotor---.

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## Human One

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Air to air helicopter attack against other aircraft would be a norm in the next 5 plus years.



Not only in the future, it already happened in the Iran Iraq war. Here's a quote from wikipedia:

Starting from October 1980, the AH-1Js engaged in air-to-air combat with Iraqi Mil Mi-24 helicopters on several, separate occasions during the Iran–Iraq War. The results of these engagements are disputed. One document cited that Iranian AH-1Js took on Iraqi Mi-8 and Mi-24 helicopters.

Read the rest here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_AH-1_SuperCobra#Iran

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## MastanKhan

Human One said:


> That's good. It's like the *AIM-92 Stinger* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-92_Stinger for use on helicopters and UAVs.
> 
> According to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_AH-1Z_Viper AH-1Zs can be armed with 2 AIM-9 Sidewinders.



Hi,

Thanks for your comments---but these kills were thru the helicopter canon---and no air to air missiles were used---.

So---they don't fall into the category that I mentioned---.

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## fatman17

Just a nice picture

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## fatman17

Top Cover

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## HAIDER



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## STRANGER BIRD



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## AMG_12

STRANGER BIRD said:


> View attachment 459174


Repost from Op Rah-e-Nijat.


----------



## Human One

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for your comments---but these kills were thru the helicopter canon---and no air to air missiles were used---.
> 
> So---they don't fall into the category that I mentioned---.



Good points. Maybe helicopter cannons could be aimed with radars? Air to missiles would be a better weapon.


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## STRANGER BIRD




----------



## khanasifm

STRANGER BIRD said:


>



In fata mostly you see ah-1 with twin tow launchers and 7 shot rocket pods may be not to Heavey load it which may impact it’s Ceiling, which was identified as one of the short coming of older ah-1s


----------



## JPMM

I
In the link below, there is a foto of a gunner in the dor of a Mi17 identified as Pak Army in RCA (Central Africa Republic) can someone check if its true, and confirm the use of this MGs on the doors of your Mi17
http://www.operacional.pt/forca-portuguesa-na-republica-centro-africana
Thanks

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## fatman17

A formation of three T129 Atak was shown today on #PakistanDay. It can be speculated that ultimately Pakistan has chosen Turkish T129 over Chinese Z10 for replacing American AH1 gunship. https://t.co/2JVbJvJYkn

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## Inception-06

JPMM said:


> I
> In the link below, there is a foto of a gunner in the dor of a Mi17 identified as Pak Army in RCA (Central Africa Republic) can someone check if its true, and confirm the use of this MGs on the doors of your Mi17
> http://www.operacional.pt/forca-portuguesa-na-republica-centro-africana
> Thanks




Not true, maybe the operator is a Pakistani, but we haven't upgraded any M-17 with door guns!

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## fatman17

Bit old but awesome picture of Pakistan rotary wing air crafts
1: AS 550 Fennec-C
2: AH1F/S Cobra
3: Bell 412 EP
4: IAR 330L Puma
5: Mil Mi17
6: Harbin Z9 EC
7: Westland SeaKing Mk 45 https://t.co/Q1eoREOUIz

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> Bit old but awesome picture of Pakistan rotary wing air crafts
> 1: AS 550 Fennec-C
> 2: AH1F/S Cobra
> 3: Bell 412 EP
> 4: IAR 330L Puma
> 5: Mil Mi17
> 6: Harbin Z9 EC
> 7: Westland SeaKing Mk 45 https://t.co/Q1eoREOUIz
> View attachment 461497


kuch nya nhi we were expecting mi-35 or zulu cobras

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> A formation of three T129 Atak was shown today on #PakistanDay. It can be speculated that ultimately Pakistan has chosen Turkish T129 over Chinese Z10 for replacing American AH1 gunship. https://t.co/2JVbJvJYkn
> View attachment 461384


That or it has decided to drop T129 ... Remember, they flew the Z-10 before dropping it too.

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> kuch nya nhi we were expecting mi-35 or zulu cobras


Jab supply nahi hoi tu kaisay expecting yara. Supplied only by the media and not Russia.

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## fatman17

FC special Ops with AS550-C Fennac light attack & recon helicopter.
AS550-C is equipped with roof mounted Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) pod, rocket pod and gun pod. https://t.co/70Cy9OaNDq

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## Viking 63

Canada is or was selling Bell-412EPI to Philippines. They make 412 because this is interesting in perspective to Pakistan since its been using Bell-412s extensively and there are chances of procuring more..


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## monitor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That or it has decided to drop T129 ... Remember, they flew the Z-10 before dropping it too.


I think Pakistan is facing pressure from two of its best ally for buying their attack helicopter.


----------



## fatman17

monitor said:


> I think Pakistan is facing pressure from two of its best ally for buying their attack helicopter.


They will select what's best for them


----------



## Dazzler

Edited

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## ali_raza

off topic 


Dazzler said:


> As per reports, all upgraded type-85IIIs are now equipped with Catherine FC TI sights, solid state autoloader, and improved FCS/ 2nd generation GCS.
> 
> These upgrades will enable these tanks to stay in service for at least 10-15 years in active service.


----------



## Sulman Badshah

JPMM said:


> I
> In the link below, there is a foto of a gunner in the dor of a Mi17 identified as Pak Army in RCA (Central Africa Republic) can someone check if its true, and confirm the use of this MGs on the doors of your Mi17
> http://www.operacional.pt/forca-portuguesa-na-republica-centro-africana
> Thanks


Pakistan army is using Mi 17 as part of UN mission .. But in both Pictures it is hard to tell that chopper belong to PA or anyother

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## syed zia Hassan

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan Army Aviation Corps*
> 
> Notes:
> 
> 
> AS.550B3 Fennec
> - Note: It is believed that 10 examples of this type were ordered during 2007, with deliveries expected to take place from late 2009 onwards, but that this acquisition has now been cancelled.
> 
> SE.3160 Alouette III
> - Note: Any surviving examples were upgraded to SA.316B standard
> 
> AW139
> - In service from May 2009
> 
> - Note: Of the 5 examples being acquired, 2 are to assume duties as VIP/VVIP transports whilst the remaining 3 will be fitted to undertake humanitarian relief operations. All 5 were delivered between May & October 2009
> 
> AH-1S Cobra
> - Note: All of the airframes are in the process of undergoing upgrades to AH-1F configuration for conformity with newly-delivered former US Army examples arriving in 2007 & 2008. One Cobra is currently stored in a damaged condition following an accident
> 
> Bell 412EP
> - In service from 2005
> 
> - Note: The vast majority of the Bell 412EPs are operated on behalf of the Ministry of Interior. The attrition losses occurred on 21st June 2006 & 6th February 2008.
> 
> UH-1H Iroquois
> - Note: 40 airframes were due from the US via FMS (20 airworthy plus 20 for spares), but this acquisition appears to have been cancelled
> 
> IAR-330L Puma
> - Note: All 4 are configured for VIP transportation tasks.
> 
> Mi-172 'Hip-H'
> - Note: 3 aircraft delivered during the second half of 2008. All are configured for the VVIP & presidential transportation role.
> 
> Mi-17-V5 'Hip'
> - Note: Some of the Mi-17 Hips previously believed to have been Mi-17-IV variants are now confirmed as being Kazan-built Mi-17V5s, delivered in the mid-2000s. Another 2 aircraft were delivered during the second half of 2008. Both are configured for the MedEvac & SAR role. It is believed that another 4 have been acquired on a temporary basis in late 2009 via the US Army TSMO (Threat Systems Management Office) at Ft.Bliss, TX to assist with anti-Taliban operations in-country
> 
> Hughes 500
> - Note: Formerly operated by the Inter-Service Intelligence Department (ISI) in very small numbers
> 
> Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'
> - Note: As many as 32 Mi-17-1V models are reported to have been acquired in a large batch delivered between 2002 & 2008. A further 6 Mi-17 (Mi-8MTV-1) helicopters have been leased from the US Department of Defense for use in ongoing anti-Taliban operations in the Swat Valley, having been delivered in late June 2009. The most recent attrition losses have been on 5th August 2004 & 3rd July 2009, the latter resulting in 26 fatalities. Another loss occurred on 24th October 2009, during fighting in the Bajaur tribal region, causing 3 fatalities aboard the helicopter.
> 
> Mi-24V 'Hind-E'
> - Note: Captured ex-Afghan example believed to have been in recent use.



Mi-24V 'Hind-E' 
- Note: Captured ex-Afghan example believed to have been in recent use.????? where did you have any picture of this ?


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## fatman17

syed zia Hassan said:


> Mi-24V 'Hind-E'
> - Note: Captured ex-Afghan example believed to have been in recent use.????? where did you have any picture of this ?



very old thread.

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## Talon



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## syed zia Hassan

Hodor said:


> View attachment 465137


nice pic


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## fatman17

Snap shots of Freshly delivered #Mi35_Hind Gunship of Pakistan Army Aviation.!
[emoji1191][emoji635] https://t.co/qrdcLI0MbP

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983757044833570817

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## syed zia Hassan

fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983757044833570817


thanks a lot first time see this in Pak Army thanks

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## alikazmi007

fatman17 said:


> Snap shots of Freshly delivered #Mi35_Hind Gunship of Pakistan Army Aviation.!
> [emoji1191][emoji635] https://t.co/qrdcLI0MbP
> View attachment 465349
> View attachment 465350
> View attachment 465351




It's big and ugly..... Love it!

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## Ahmet Pasha

Would've liked to see one with retractable landing gear and black paint job for night raid.


fatman17 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/983757044833570817

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## blinder

fatman17 said:


> FC special Ops with AS550-C Fennac light attack & recon helicopter.
> AS550-C is equipped with roof mounted Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) pod, rocket pod and gun pod. https://t.co/70Cy9OaNDq
> View attachment 463467



That is a potent combination!
However, I would suggest to obscure the faces of the special forces guys.


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## fatman17

alikazmi007 said:


> It's big and ugly..... Love it!


Eventual requirement is for 20 of these bad boys

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## YeBeWarned

fatman17 said:


> Eventual requirement is for 20 of these bad boys


Any chance for placing order for another 4 of these ?


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## fatman17

Starlord said:


> Any chance for placing order for another 4 of these ?


Likely scenario, supply in 2019. It's actually taken longer than expected for aviation crews to master these helos. Other issues were all manuals had to be translated from Russian to English, just like we had issues with Chinese systems.

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## YeBeWarned

fatman17 said:


> Likely scenario, supply in 2019. It's actually taken longer than expected for aviation crews to master these helos. Other issues were all manuals had to be translated from Russian to English, just like we had issues with Chinese systems.



but as we already have 4 of these so now next 4 wont take long to be inducted ..


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## fatman17

Starlord said:


> but as we already have 4 of these so now next 4 wont take long to be inducted ..


True but $$$ is always a issue with us.

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## YeBeWarned

fatman17 said:


> True but $$$ is always a issue with us.



agree, but lets hope for the best ..

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## fatman17

Starlord said:


> agree, but lets hope for the best ..


 yes we need them urgently


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## YeBeWarned

fatman17 said:


> yes we need them urgently



For counter insurgency ?


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## fatman17

Starlord said:


> For counter insurgency ?



multi role helo, anti narc, counter insurgency, SF assault support and anti tank

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## YeBeWarned

fatman17 said:


> multi role helo, anti narc, counter insurgency, SF assault support and anti tank



most urgent role for these choppers will be Counter insurgency i guess, i doubt we need those for narcotics .


----------



## nomi007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/984704398906576896Chinese attack Helicopter *WZ10* video is testing in *Pakistan*

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## Muhammad Omar

nomi007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/984704398906576896Chinese attack Helicopter *WZ10* video is testing in *Pakistan*


Old video or new??


----------



## fatman17

Starlord said:


> most urgent role for these choppers will be Counter insurgency i guess, i doubt we need those for narcotics .



CI and narcotics



nomi007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/984704398906576896Chinese attack Helicopter *WZ10* video is testing in *Pakistan*



old video

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## alikazmi007

fatman17 said:


> Eventual requirement is for 20 of these bad boys



Heck yeah....!


----------



## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Snap shots of Freshly delivered #Mi35_Hind Gunship of Pakistan Army Aviation.!
> [emoji1191][emoji635] https://t.co/qrdcLI0MbP
> View attachment 465349
> View attachment 465350
> View attachment 465351



It looks like the sensor is not bulky Russian but same pa has on other platforms like bell 412 and mi-171 may be star Safire ??


----------



## Arsalan

*Russia begins delivery of advanced assault helicopters to Pakistan*
By News Desk
Published: April 15, 2018
325SHARES

The Pakistan Army Aviation Corps has begun receiving the Mi-35 assault helicopters it ordered from Russia back in 2015, according to a report in _The Diplomat_.

Citing an earlier article that appeared on _Quwa Defense News and Analysis Group_, the Tokyo-based online international news magazine reported that a video has appeared to have surface on the social media which shows a Mi-35 helicopter draped in the colours of the Pakistan Armed Forces flying somewhere in the country.

_The Diplomat_ also stated that an import-export log appeared to record the delivery of helicopter-related equipment, including ammunition, from Russian state-owned defense exporter Rosoboronexport to the Pakistan Army.





Last year, it was reported that Russia had handed over four Mi-35M helicopters to Pakistan Army Aviation Corps. However, the Japanese publication noted that the delivery of these choppers likely took place in Russia, and the actual transfer of gunships took place later.

“The contract was signed, we received all four cars [Mi-35Ms] and now we get new equipment,” Brigadier General Waheed Mumtaz of Pakistan’s Defense Export Promotion Organisation said in Moscow at the time.


Islamabad and Moscow concluded the $153 million helicopter deal during then-chief of army staff General (retd) Raheel Sharif’s visit to Russia in June 2016. A preliminary contract was signed at the Pakistan Army General Headquarters in Rawalpindi in August 2015.

The Mi-35M attack helicopter, the export version of the Mi-24 gunship, was developed by the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant and has been produced in Russia since 2005. Next to serving in the Russian military, the aircraft has been exported to Azerbaijan, Brazil, Iraq, and Venezuela.

The company website of Russian Helicopters notes that the Mi-35 is particularly suited for mountainous terrain and can be deployed “round the clock” in adverse weather conditions. The website added that the helicopter offers “combat use of guided and unguided weapons in regular and challenging climate conditions” and is “operational for attack flights at altitudes of 10-25 m daytime and 50 m at night over land or water.”


The helicopter can be deployed for a host of different missions, including transporting up to eight paratroopers and carrying military supplies weighing up to 1,500 kg internally and 2,400 kg externally.

The Mi-35M is armed with a mounted twin-barrel GSh-23V 23 millimeter cannon and 80 and 120 millimeter rockets, as well as anti-tank guided missiles.

The Pakistan military has expressed an interested in procuring up to 20 new Mi-35M helicopters in years ahead. “Given the cost of building the necessary Mi-35M logistics and maintenance infrastructure, expanding the fleet beyond four aircraft would financially be a sound decision for the Pakistani military,” the author of the report in _The Diplomat_underlined.





BHarwana said:


> Proof of both MI-35M and J-10 are at this link below.
> 
> https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.MPRT.KD?locations=PK






Arsalan said:


> Where is the proof in that link exactly? It just shows the SIPRI site quoting total spending not any details of a system. Will you point us out to the actual information as you have claimed?



This is why i was REQUESTING you to stop misguiding the members here.





You quoted an article that had NOTHING to say about DELIVERY of the said systems and titled it as "PROOF OF Mi-35". That is what i was disagreeing with. I hope you will understand now that it was nothing personal.

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## BHarwana

Arsalan said:


> *Russia begins delivery of advanced assault helicopters to Pakistan*
> By News Desk
> Published: April 15, 2018
> 325SHARES
> 
> The Pakistan Army Aviation Corps has begun receiving the Mi-35 assault helicopters it ordered from Russia back in 2015, according to a report in _The Diplomat_.
> 
> Citing an earlier article that appeared on _Quwa Defense News and Analysis Group_, the Tokyo-based online international news magazine reported that a video has appeared to have surface on the social media which shows a Mi-35 helicopter draped in the colours of the Pakistan Armed Forces flying somewhere in the country.
> 
> _The Diplomat_ also stated that an import-export log appeared to record the delivery of helicopter-related equipment, including ammunition, from Russian state-owned defense exporter Rosoboronexport to the Pakistan Army.
> View attachment 467350
> 
> Last year, it was reported that Russia had handed over four Mi-35M helicopters to Pakistan Army Aviation Corps. However, the Japanese publication noted that the delivery of these choppers likely took place in Russia, and the actual transfer of gunships took place later.
> 
> “The contract was signed, we received all four cars [Mi-35Ms] and now we get new equipment,” Brigadier General Waheed Mumtaz of Pakistan’s Defense Export Promotion Organisation said in Moscow at the time.
> 
> 
> Islamabad and Moscow concluded the $153 million helicopter deal during then-chief of army staff General (retd) Raheel Sharif’s visit to Russia in June 2016. A preliminary contract was signed at the Pakistan Army General Headquarters in Rawalpindi in August 2015.
> 
> The Mi-35M attack helicopter, the export version of the Mi-24 gunship, was developed by the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant and has been produced in Russia since 2005. Next to serving in the Russian military, the aircraft has been exported to Azerbaijan, Brazil, Iraq, and Venezuela.
> 
> The company website of Russian Helicopters notes that the Mi-35 is particularly suited for mountainous terrain and can be deployed “round the clock” in adverse weather conditions. The website added that the helicopter offers “combat use of guided and unguided weapons in regular and challenging climate conditions” and is “operational for attack flights at altitudes of 10-25 m daytime and 50 m at night over land or water.”
> 
> 
> The helicopter can be deployed for a host of different missions, including transporting up to eight paratroopers and carrying military supplies weighing up to 1,500 kg internally and 2,400 kg externally.
> 
> The Mi-35M is armed with a mounted twin-barrel GSh-23V 23 millimeter cannon and 80 and 120 millimeter rockets, as well as anti-tank guided missiles.
> 
> The Pakistan military has expressed an interested in procuring up to 20 new Mi-35M helicopters in years ahead. “Given the cost of building the necessary Mi-35M logistics and maintenance infrastructure, expanding the fleet beyond four aircraft would financially be a sound decision for the Pakistani military,” the author of the report in _The Diplomat_underlined.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is why i was REQUESTING you to stop misguiding the members here.
> View attachment 467350
> 
> 
> You quoted an article that had NOTHING to say about DELIVERY of the said systems and titled it as "PROOF OF Mi-35". That is what i was disagreeing with. I hope you will understand now that it was nothing personal.




Hello please make me understand how have i misguided members? I gave proof of budget of payment and you are posting an article dated april 15th and helicopter delivery was made much early than that.


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## Arsalan

BHarwana said:


> Hello please make me understand how have i misguided members? I gave proof of budget of payment and you are posting an article dated april 15th and helicopter delivery was made much early than that.


A document confirming 500 mil $ spent is a proof of just that, 500 million dollar spent! If you start claiming that this money was spent for that particular system it becomes speculation and guess (wild or educated). Using that document as "proof" of one particular system being bought was misguiding people. Anyway, i hope you will understand this someday and assure that it was nothing personal as you perceived.

As for the article, look at the table i shared. It mentions date of arrival as well.


----------



## BHarwana

Arsalan said:


> A document confirming 500 mil $ spent is a proof of just that, 500 million dollar spent! If you start claiming that this money was spent for that particular system it becomes speculation and guess (wild or educated). Using that document as "proof" of one particular system being bought was misguiding people. Anyway, i hope you will understand this someday and assure that it was nothing personal as you perceived.
> 
> As for the article, look at the table i shared. It mentions date of arrival as well.



No one here is dump enough to take the a budget surge as for certain particular item i think we all are grown ups here but you have to understand that out flow of money with big amount is one of the methods used to assess purchases and the link i shared provides the very exact info. this link was not shabaz sharif laptop scheem or some thing but it provided info on out going money for weapons purchase. yes it is a speculation but a very precise one and which has proven to be true over time so hope that makes my argument clear to you. hope you understand how world works.

any ways lets leave this and continue on more important topic on hand because they are here and that's what matters.


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## fatman17

Mi35M

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> Mi35M
> View attachment 469552


15 -20 hoty to khushi hoti 4 ka achar daleen gay


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## MastanKhan

Imran Khan said:


> 15 -20 hoty to khushi hoti 4 ka achar daleen gay



Hi,

4 is just a start---they will be 15-20

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## sparten

We need them against the PTM inspired insurgency we will soon face.


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## pzfz

sparten said:


> We need them against the PTM inspired insurgency we will soon face.



fat chance, but a ptm insurgency would be great. a chance to off these failed marxists once and for all.


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> 15 -20 hoty to khushi hoti 4 ka achar daleen gay


Upto 20 on the way, matter of price always

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> Upto 20 on the way, matter of price always


qistoon per nhi dety kya yahan to pathan bhai her cheez dety hain

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## HAIDER

Imran Khan said:


> qistoon per nhi dety kya yahan to pathan bhai her cheez dety hain


aik niswar ki dabbi free

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## Viking 63

HAIDER said:


> aik niswar ki dabbi free
> 
> 
> HAIDER said:
> 
> 
> 
> aik niswar ki dabbi free
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 469779
> 
> 
> 
> Man I really hate this F-16 !! this obsession has gone too far now !!
Click to expand...


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## fatman17

Seems like the 12 AH1Zs are now being sold to Bahrain.


----------



## Yasser76

fatman17 said:


> Seems like the 12 AH1Zs are now being sold to Bahrain.



No they are not. It is a seperate announcment and the Bahrainis are paying their own money. Why do people just make up s**t on this forum?

On the other hand Bahrain has so many ex Pakistani personnel in it's forces that it actually purchases equipment that is the same of very familiar to Pakistan

AH-1F
F-16
F-5
OHP frigates


----------



## Shiji

A pic I took of the Fennec, there were low flying AH1s but missed them when the camera came on, Right side is the Gun Pod, can anyone Identify the left pylon? 
Looks like a rocket pod.


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## fatman17

Pakistan army Aviation Bell 412 EP utility helicopter seen with two M134 Miniguns attached to side doors.
At max, this gun can fire 6000 rounds per minute! https://t.co/NiUjTvemO3


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan army Aviation Bell 412 EP utility helicopter seen with two M134 Miniguns attached to side doors.
> At max, this gun can fire 6000 rounds per minute! https://t.co/NiUjTvemO3


Here's the picture

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## fatman17

Yasser76 said:


> No they are not. It is a seperate announcment and the Bahrainis are paying their own money. Why do people just make up s**t on this forum?
> 
> On the other hand Bahrain has so many ex Pakistani personnel in it's forces that it actually purchases equipment that is the same of very familiar to Pakistan
> 
> AH-1F
> F-16
> F-5
> OHP frigates


Would be nice if you used clean language. Thanks.

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## Basel

fatman17 said:


> Here's the picture
> View attachment 470917



Very effective against non armored targets in well trained hands.

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## syed_yusuf

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 4 is just a start---they will be 15-20


yes i expect that too, but have to wait and see

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## Chimgathar

Guys few years back PA overhauled their first Mi-17 helo. I heard PA was in talks with Russia for a dedicated facility in Pakistan to overhaul other Mi-17s. Any update on this?

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## fatman17

Chimgathar said:


> Guys few years back PA overhauled their first Mi-17 helo. I heard PA was in talks with Russia for a dedicated facility in Pakistan to overhaul other Mi-17s. Any update on this?


Already in place at Dhamyial.

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Pak army aviation will have a quite decent fleet of Attack heli's in few years . 

-Cobra's =40
-Viper's = 15
-T-129 = 30 
- Mi-35 =4 ( more might be ordered) 
- Z-10 = No update


----------



## Imran Khan

Pakistan Army ' said:


> Pak army aviation will have a quite decent fleet of Attack heli's in few years .
> 
> -Cobra's =40
> -Viper's = 15
> -T-129 = 30
> - Mi-35 =4 ( more might be ordered)
> - Z-10 = No update


konsy vipers pai jaan ?ye waly

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## CHI RULES

Pakistan Army ' said:


> Pak army aviation will have a quite decent fleet of Attack heli's in few years .
> 
> -Cobra's =40
> -Viper's = 15
> -T-129 = 30
> - Mi-35 =4 ( more might be ordered)
> - Z-10 = No update


After proposed induction of T129 the Cobras shall be retired, meanwhile if T129 selected then no Z10s.
Vipers are doubtful to be inducted during Trump's era.

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## fatman17

Sources in media are reconfirming the leaked news that Pakistan has secured Transfer of Technology agreement for Turkish T129 ATAK. Its not known yet how many units Pakistan will be assembling and how many will be buying directly from Turkey. https://t.co/2FM3sUlKrJ

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## ZedZeeshan

fatman17 said:


> Sources in media are reconfirming the leaked news that Pakistan has secured Transfer of Technology agreement for Turkish T129 ATAK. Its not known yet how many units Pakistan will be assembling and how many will be buying directly from Turkey. https://t.co/2FM3sUlKrJ
> View attachment 474591


It is possible , Pakistan most of the time keep quiet when buying expensive equipment..


----------



## monitor

CHI RULES said:


> After proposed induction of T129 the Cobras shall be retired, meanwhile if T129 selected then no Z10s.
> Vipers are doubtful to be inducted during Trump's era.



If you replace cobra with T-129 then more then 30 T-129 will be needed along with vipers . I think 70-80 attack helicopter will be inducted gradually .


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> Sources in media are reconfirming the leaked news that Pakistan has secured Transfer of Technology agreement for Turkish T129 ATAK. Its not known yet how many units Pakistan will be assembling and how many will be buying directly from Turkey. https://t.co/2FM3sUlKrJ
> View attachment 474591


It's d-level MRO so far, but TAI offered some parts manufacturing to PAC. It isn't clear if PAC will do final assembly, not necessary as the main goal is d-level MRO, esp. for the CTS800 turboshaft engine.

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## CHI RULES

monitor said:


> If you replace cobra with T-129 then more then 30 T-129 will be needed along with vipers . I think 70-80 attack helicopter will be inducted gradually .


You are right but perhaps the oldest Cobras shall be replaced 1st then refurbished once. The Vipers are not looking to be coming so may be PA shall compensate by purchase any Russian heavy attack helicopter, more in numbers then planned 12-15 of them. Further for general assault + transport role more Mi35s are expected. The total AH1Fs in PA are perhaps up to 48-50. In addition to that PA also has limited nubers of IAR 330 and AS550 C3 Fennec for light attack roles.


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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/MFI-17-Mushshak/1027

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## Alex John

Send More pictures Please


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## fatman17

Pakistan buys 30 Turkish Combat attack helicopters ATAK T129 https://t.co/sRITusgn9m


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## Danish saleem

CHI RULES said:


> After proposed induction of T129 the Cobras shall be retired, meanwhile if T129 selected then no Z10s.
> Vipers are doubtful to be inducted during Trump's era.



Placing order to Turkey clearly means, that Vipers not coming.

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## fatman17

Danish saleem said:


> Placing order to Turkey clearly means, that Vipers not coming.


Most likely. When China solves the Z10 power plant issue, Z10 will also be inducted.


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## python-000

fatman17 said:


> Most likely. When China solves the Z10 power plant issue, Z10 will also be inducted.


may be in future we see this kind of PAA attack formation in our skies

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## Signalian

python-000 said:


> may be in future we see this kind of PAA attack formation in our skies
> View attachment 476501


great effort, however 1Z is missing


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## Imran Khan

python-000 said:


> may be in future we see this kind of PAA attack formation in our skies
> View attachment 476501


dekh leen koi reh na jaay . its cocktail

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## python-000

Signalian said:


> great effort, however 1Z is missing


Bro, No confirmation of AH-1z there for i didn't added it.



Imran Khan said:


> dekh leen koi reh na jaay . its cocktail


hahaha, aap bolain to Apachi or Ka-52 bhi add kr dun


----------



## blinder

The CTS800 engine is made by an Anglo-US consortium (Rolls Royce and Honeywell). So Honeywell should likely need to seek export clearance from the US government if this deal goes ahead. As I may have mentioned before in this thread.

If the Americans want to play it a bit dirty, they forbid Honeywell to export these engines and give Bell Helicopters Textron the green light for their AH-1Z. Just a scenario...

Also, the deal with TAI includes parts, armament, training and support for a number of years I suppose (or rather, I hope...). With such a small amount being build, you will also pay in part for the USD 3 billion + development cost that have to be spread out over approximately 100 helicopters projected to date.


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## khanasifm

K8 engine is US and classified as commercial as it’s used on military trainer and commercial executive jets and does not come u set ITAR if I understand correctly so no issue this engine also has same type of deal there is commercial and mil version


----------



## fatman17

Air Platforms

Pakistan signs for T129 attack helos

Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

25 May 2018

According to Turkey’s ruling party, Pakistan recently signed for 30 T129 attack helicopters. Source: TAI

Pakistan has formally signed for 30 TAI T129 attack helicopters from Turkey, it was disclosed on 24 May.

The confirmation of the anticipated sale to Pakistan was made in the political manifesto that Turkey’s ruling Justice and Development Party (AK Parti) has released ahead of the general election scheduled for June. The manifesto states that “a very short while ago a contract for the sale of 30 attack helicopters was signed with Pakistan”. No further details were disclosed and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) had not responded to a request for comment at the time of writing.

Pakistan is known to have evaluated the Turkish-built version of the AgustaWestland A129 Mangusta as part of an ongoing effort to procure a new attack helicopter for the country’s army. With the Pakistan Army having already ordered 12 US-built Bell AH-1Z Vipers, it had since 2014 been trialling the Chinese-built Z-10 and since 2016 the T129.

Speaking earlier in the year to Jane’s and other defence media, Pakistan Army Aviation commander Major General Nasir Shah said only that a number of platform options were being considered to augment its current Bell AH-1 Cobras, the four recently received Mil Mi-35s, and its soon to be delivered AH-1Z Viper platforms.

“Army Aviation has plans to further enhance its attack helicopter fleets, and various options are currently being considered and evaluated,” Gen Shah said on 31 January at the IQPC Military Helicopter conference in London. “The [current 32] AH-1 helicopters have provided effective close support for our ground forces engaged in counterinsurgency [COIN] operations, but they cannot be employed effectively in high-altitude operations above 8,000 ft,” he added.


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## Path-Finder

I have a great interest in Z-20. Now that T129 and Z-10 has been sorted out. The need for Z-20 is greater than ever for operations.

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## mzeeshanfahd

Path-Finder said:


> I have a great interest in Z-20. Now that T129 and Z-10 has been sorted out. The need for Z-20 is greater than ever for operations.



why not t-70 .... from TAI .....


----------



## Path-Finder

mzeeshanfahd said:


> why not t-70 .... from TAI .....



Why not Z-20 with TAI electronics and components. Z-20 can be made in Pakistan but T-70 is still an american product with huge restrictions.

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## Imran Khan



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## fatman17

T129 ATAK
(click to view full)

May 29/18: Pakistan orders T-129 Pakistan is set to receive thirty T-129 attack helicopters from Turkey. Pakistan is known to have evaluated the Turkish-built attack helicopter as part of an ongoing effort to procure a new attack helicopter for the country’s army. The T-129 is based on the AugustaWestland (now Leonardo) produced A-129 Mangusta. Turkish Aerospace Industries is the T-129’s prime contractor. The aircraft is notable for its low frontal profile, and offers a good mix of surveillance, gun and missile capabilities. The T-129A EDH carries the nose-mounted 20mm cannon turret with 500 rounds, and 4 pylons for unguided rockets. The T-129B version will add Roketsan’s MIZRAK missiles and CIRIT 70 mm Laser Guided Rockets, and Raytheon’s FIM-92 Stinger air-to-air missiles. Pakistan currently has US-built Bell AH-1Z Vipers, Bell AH-1 Cobras and four Mi-35s in its inventory. The T129 competed against the Chinese-built Z-10.

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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> Most likely. When China solves the Z10 power plant issue, Z10 will also be inducted.


Sir, Z10 deal is dead. Engine probs, plus canon prone to jamming and 2-3 times missile misfired. After extensive tests and no solution came, T129s got selected.

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## TaimiKhan

Latest pic of T129 in Pakistan. Few weeks old pic.

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## Maarkhoor

TaimiKhan said:


> Latest pic of T129 in Pakistan. Few weeks old pic.
> View attachment 477607


Yeah good choice but looking at Turkish new political moves, this chopper is highly prone to sanctions since engines and many subsystem are imported.
Fingers crossed......

Z-10 is still a good choice...100% sanctions free plus much cheaper but I believe Turkish got this deal by awarding all choppers based on soft loans and some TOT.

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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir, Z10 deal is dead. Engine probs, plus canon prone to jamming and 2-3 times missile misfired. After extensive tests and no solution came, T129s got selected.


Ok, nice to know


----------



## fatman17

Army Aviation helicopters busy extinguishing Margalla Hills Fire.
9 sorties carrying Bambi Buckets flown over Bari area affected by Fire behind Bari Imam. Pakistan Army troops also reached incident site, - @OfficialDGISPR

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## hassan1



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## ghazi52

FOUR ENSTROM 280FX piston-engine helicopters were recently delivered to the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps. The helicopters comprised N827NE (c/n 2148), N827PE (c/n 2149), N829TW (c/n 2150) and N829QH (c/n 2151), the first two of which were cancelled from the US register on February 12 on export to Pakistan, while the remaining two were cancelled on February 15.

Enstrom Helicopters had announced on February 27 that it had completed hand over of four of these helicopters to Global Services and Solutions of Pakistan, a local Enstrom agent based in Rawalpindi, following a week-long inspection process at the factory in Menominee, Michigan, which was completed during the week of February 5. Although the company did not identify the end user, a photograph of one of them issued with the press release showed it to be carrying a Pakistani military roundel and Army Aviation Corps serial 786-126.

The order from the local distributor had been announced in September 2017, but the Army had not been revealed as the planned operator. These are the first of the type sold in Pakistan, but it is unknown whether the Army plans to order any further examples. Tracy Biegler, CEO of Enstrom, said: “We feel the Enstrom 280FX is the ideal training helicopter to operate in the difficult climate conditions of Pakistan,” indicating that the Army obviously intends to use them for training of rotary-wing aircrew.


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## khanasifm

Pa had older about 10 or so heli for primary heli training may be These are replacement


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

python-000 said:


> may be in future we see this kind of PAA attack formation in our skies
> View attachment 476501


you have not added the zulu


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## hassan1



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## ghazi52

No PR-192/2018-ISPR

Margalla Hills Fire





__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Inception-06

ghazi52 said:


> No PR-192/2018-ISPR
> 
> Margalla Hills Fire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/



Why not sending the Mi-14 and more Hellis for this mission.


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## HAIDER

CDA has millions and billions of rupee budget , but these corrupt officers has no fire fighting department .

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## Alex John

I Need 30 pics please share more pics


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## ghazi52

Utility helicopter Bell 412 and Transport helicopter Mi 17 spotted at Khalid air base Quetta.
https://twitter.com/AhmAdTipu7

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1005192738529308672

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## Chimgathar

May Allah give success to our Jawans, Amin


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## BHarwana

Do we have any out come of Ansat helicopter which was being tested in Pakistan?


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## SQ8

AH-1Z’s being put into storage ala Pressler F-16s due to further souring relationship.

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## Sine Nomine

Oscar said:


> AH-1Z’s being put into storage ala Pressler F-16s due to further souring relationship.


Any hope of getting things back on track again?


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## Imran Khan

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Any hope of getting things back on track again?


we have to wait 20-30 years when USA need us for dirty job

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## SQ8

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Any hope of getting things back on track again?


Just interpreting contract notices
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...db248b6922c09a5d7165e7ad6b7&tab=core&_cview=0

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## Sine Nomine

Imran Khan said:


> we have to wait 20-30 years when USA need us for dirty job


Dua diyo kommando sahab nu,jera sat sumandar par de jung ithey lai aya see.
Pata nahi dushman,apney pichwarey bulana kere stratgey hai.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> AH-1Z’s being put into storage ala Pressler F-16s due to further souring relationship.


IIRC @PAR 5 said it would be due to Pakistan not having the cash for them (and refusing the US loan mechanism). In a way, it might all mean the same thing, e.g. the original plan was to buy them via FMF, but Trump canned it.

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## fatman17

A beautiful and Clear Snap of Pakistan Army Aviation Mil MI 35M attack helicopter.
IR supressors on engine exhausts and two additional fuel tanks on wing pylons can be seen.
Glory for Pak Russian friendship... https://t.co/Bh0Zvwqxbh

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> A beautiful and Clear Snap of Pakistan Army Aviation Mil MI 35M attack helicopter.
> IR supressors on engine exhausts and two additional fuel tanks on wing pylons can be seen.
> Glory for Pak Russian friendship... https://t.co/Bh0Zvwqxbh
> View attachment 479495


look better then what we think sir . chaly ga

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## Sine Nomine

Imran Khan said:


> look better then what we think sir . chaly ga


Ah-1z da chapter close hovan tou baad Janab Hun Dhorey ga.


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> look better then what we think sir . chaly ga


Bilkul. We need 20


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Bilkul. We need 20




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1008075028322242560

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## fatman17

#US emargoes sale and transfer of AH-1Z Viper Helicopters to #Pakistan 
Return to 1990s saga of F-16 embargo. 
From domestic to international affairs, so many similarities of 1990s... https://t.co/i01Mnx8ArW

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## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> #US emargoes sale and transfer of AH-1Z Viper Helicopters to #Pakistan
> Return to 1990s saga of F-16 embargo.
> From domestic to international affairs, so many similarities of 1990s... https://t.co/i01Mnx8ArW
> View attachment 481033



Because Twitter is real news ...

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## Imran Khan

GriffinsRule said:


> Because Twitter is real news ...


dil ke behlaany ko ghalib ye khayal acha hai


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## GriffinsRule

Anyone how believes this story should have articles in the newspapers by tomorrow to support it with sources from the relevant departments issuing statements from the US and in Pakistan ... after all this is from a "journalist" right. An arms embargo certainly should be news worthy if not even front page news.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1008075028322242560


more like:




https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-06-15/turkey-finally-seals-big-blackhawk-deal

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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> more like:
> View attachment 481168
> 
> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-06-15/turkey-finally-seals-big-blackhawk-deal
> 
> View attachment 481169
> View attachment 481170
> View attachment 481171
> View attachment 481172
> View attachment 481173

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## JK!

https://www.rt.com/news/429992-afghanistan-us-helicopter-problems/

Stick to Mi17s not Blackhawks!

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## blinder

GriffinsRule said:


> Anyone how believes this story should have articles in the newspapers by tomorrow to support it with sources from the relevant departments issuing statements from the US and in Pakistan ... after all this is from a "journalist" right. An arms embargo certainly should be news worthy if not even front page news.



There is a US sollicitation issued for a prolonged storage and preservation of the three AH-1Z finished products until at least early 2019. So there will be no AH-1Z delivery imminent; unless the US government changes its policy. Refer Oscar's post with the link to the source information.

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## GriffinsRule

blinder said:


> There is a US sollicitation issued for a prolonged storage and preservation of the three AH-1Z finished products until at least early 2019. So there will be no AH-1Z delivery imminent; unless the US government changes its policy. Refer Oscar's post with the link to the source information.



I am aware. But how does one leap from storage to embargo or cancellation? Besides, if these three are to be delivered later this year with the remainder, it makes perfect sense to store them properly for the next six month or whatever instead of keeping them under a shed in open air doesn't it?


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## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> Anyone how believes this story should have articles in the newspapers by tomorrow to support it with sources from the relevant departments issuing statements from the US and in Pakistan ... after all this is from a "journalist" right. An arms embargo certainly should be news worthy if not even front page news.


One can call it what you like, stored, suspended, embargo, it all means they ain't going to be delivered anytime soon, hence the move to buy turk helos.

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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> One can call it what you like, stored, suspended, embargo, it all means they ain't going to be delivered anytime soon, hence the move to buy turk helos.



Agreed, but fatman17 bro what about the rumored 3 that have been delivered in Pak ?


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## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> One can call it what you like, stored, suspended, embargo, it all means they ain't going to be delivered anytime soon, hence the move to buy turk helos.



There is a clear distinction in all those terms, and that does matter. As for T-129, they were always coming along with the Cobras, and never as you are implying, in lieu of the AH-1s


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> Agreed, but fatman17 bro what about the rumored 3 that have been delivered in Pak ?


no delivery

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## syed_yusuf

GriffinsRule said:


> There is a clear distinction in all those terms, and that does matter. As for T-129, they were always coming along with the Cobras, and never as you are implying, in lieu of the AH-1s



this is where Z-10 comes into play. complemented by Mi35


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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> this is where Z-10 comes into play. complemented by Mi35


Z10 has engine problem. Needs new more powerful engine

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## Armchair

They are still good for Sindh / Punjab. But what am I saying? I'm opposed to any attack helos - I'd rather see specialized CAS aeroplanes.


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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Readerdefence

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 482163
> View attachment 482164
> View attachment 482165
> View attachment 482166
> 
> 
> View attachment 482169
> View attachment 482170


Hi what’s the black thing next to gun on mi35 any info please 
Thank you


----------



## Chimgathar

Readerdefence said:


> Hi what’s the black thing next to gun on mi35 any info please
> Thank you


I thought it was FLIR but its some radio link antenna

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## ZedZeeshan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi what’s the black thing next to gun on mi35 any info please
> Thank you


Infrared...

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## Arsalan

TOPGUN said:


> Agreed, but fatman17 bro what about the rumored 3 that have been delivered in Pak ?


Nothing have been delivered yet. Plus i think that these will be delivered in End 2018 through to whole 2019. US knows that they cannot afford to complete shut out Pakistan. They simply cant!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Better to invest in Z-10 beauti

















With this form of solid Configuration available not sure why we are wasting time with garbage Super Cobra

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## Arsalan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Better to invest in Z-10 beauti
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With this form of solid Configuration available not sure why we are wasting time with garbage Super Cobra


Engine problems

Plus there are THOUSANDS of garbage Cobras flying and we have THOUSANDS of hours experience on them so.....

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## Shabi1

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Better to invest in Z-10 beauti
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With this form of solid Configuration available not sure why we are wasting time with garbage Super Cobra


Because we want US to pay for Gunship use and their ammunition from FMF. US will not reimburse for any military hardware used that is of non US origin.
However if Pakistan no longer wants to use FMF compensation then there is no need to buy US hardware, when better or cheaper alternatives available.

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## fatman17

According a Pentagon report, US plans to replace Afghan Mi-17 with UH-60A+ Black Hawks have met new “challenges” as the Russian helicopters are superior in cargo capacity and high altitude flying [emoji576]https://t.co/rYwmA0tSiT #avgeek #military #aviation #helicopters #Afghanistan

Interesting bit of news

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## python-000

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Better to invest in Z-10 beauti
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With this form of solid Configuration available not sure why we are wasting time with garbage Super Cobra


1 suggestion; Pakistan can invest in Turkish new engine & then install it in these Z-10 beasts....
& that can resolved the engine issue


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## Chimgathar



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## khanasifm

https://maps.southfront.org/mi-38-called-up-for-army-service/


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## HAIDER

Arsalan said:


> Nothing have been delivered yet. Plus i think that these will be delivered in End 2018 through to whole 2019. US knows that they cannot afford to complete shut out Pakistan. They simply cant!


Some countries attach helo still not able to match the 1965 Cobra. Some of the qualities of Cobra are still not available in present latest Attack helo. Quote from ex pilot.


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## fatman17

AH1Z are not embargoed but delayed.
Reasons why AH1Z delivery is late
1:Hangers are not ready in Pakistan
2ak pilots have not yet completed their training courses yet
3:Electronic and cockpit equipment is not timely prepared due to busy production-line for those components https://t.co/9ytjFy9m8B

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## Armchair

You could get engines from Ukraine - they make decent attack helicopter engines. That could be an option if the US fails to release T-129 engines or if Z-10's engines aren't good enough. You could also use the Z-10s for Sindh and Punjab and T-129s for NA and COIN. Motor Sich used to make engines for Russian attack helicopters, engines should be good enough.


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## khanasifm

Per US Crew on Mi-8/17 who had flown it for a while (South America and AfPak) for high/humid Mi beats UH-60s

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## Talon

Heard some *T129s* *were delivered today at Chaklala by an Antonov 124...*
@fatman17 @GriffinsRule @Arsalan @khanasifm

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## khanasifm

Assuming paa will be getting new built with offset of some parts built at pac ?? Unless few for local orientation and training being provided part of the deal like pac did for Mashaq to Nigeria


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## Armchair

there is no meaning or purpose in getting manufacturing for 30 odd helicopters.


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## BHarwana

Saw this monster flying above me Today.

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## Ahmet Pasha

You'll see a lot of those if you live in Rawalpindi. Even more if your house is in the flight path of all those helis taking off from dhamial.


BHarwana said:


> Saw this monster flying above me Today.
> 
> View attachment 484409


----------



## BHarwana

Ahmet Pasha said:


> You'll see a lot of those if you live in Rawalpindi. Even more if your house is in the flight path of all those helis taking off from dhamial.



The image is from Gharial camp. I have more images but they not for being posted online.


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## fatman17

Hodor said:


> Heard some *T129s* *were delivered today at Chaklala by an Antonov 124...*
> @fatman17 @GriffinsRule @Arsalan @khanasifm


Doubt it really.


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## Talon

fatman17 said:


> Doubt it really.


I was told this by a guy whoz in civil av..then I asked a PAA combat pilot who was at chaklala at the time of arrival of an124 and he denied it...so idk.

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## Fieldmarshal

These pics I took a couple of months ago ...a weather front moved in very quickly and this uh1h had to make an emergency landing at the ground right next to the fwo staging post in gharial, murree.
Pics taken from fwo staging post

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## ziaulislam

Armchair said:


> there is no meaning or purpose in getting manufacturing for 30 odd helicopters.


Exactly..we need two helicopters in long run over 100s ...a small utility and medium utility...we should join Turks or find another joint patner... 

Ultimately mi 17 will have to be replaced so do the bell, and the need will be in 100s may 150 each if all three services are counted
We recently bought 10+ aw139

Regarding t129 doesn't matter whether we buy them off the shelves if it's cheaper that way

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## Tipu7

BHarwana said:


> The image is from Gharial camp. I have more images but they not for being posted online.


An124 was there two days ago. 
And it was not there to deliver T129.

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## syed_yusuf

Tipu7 said:


> An124 was there two days ago.
> And it was not there to deliver T129.


Did it landed to get fuel ?


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## fatman17

Tipu7 said:


> An124 was there two days ago.
> And it was not there to deliver T129.


Usually an 124 brings JFT engines and fuselage etc from China. Additionally it also makes refuelling stops. Russia has started using lslamabad as a pit stop for their aircraft going East.

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## Super Falcon

BHarwana said:


> Saw this monster flying above me Today.
> 
> View attachment 484409


Dident you seen MI 28 monster of monsters


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


>


Thats a ground up built combat version.. produced by UAE & Sikorsky.

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## Arsalan

*Turkey sells 30 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan in largest single military export deal*
Turkey and Pakistan have finalized a deal for Pakistan's purchase of T129 Advanced Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters (ATAK) on Friday.

*The helicopters will be delivered gradually over five years,* the sources said. The deal is the biggest single export deal of Turkey's defense industry, the country's defense industry directorate said earlier.

With the sales contract, the longstanding cooperation and bilateral relations between Pakistan and Turkey in the defense field gained a new dimension.

In a November 2017 interview with the Anadolu Agency, Pakistani Minister for Defense Production Rana Tanveer Hussain said his country planned to procure 30 attack helicopters and four naval ships from Turkey.

The T129 ATAK helicopter is a new generation, tandem, two-seat, twin-engine helicopter specifically designed for attack and reconnaissance.

Developed from the combat-proven AgustaWestland A129CBT, the new aircraft incorporates a new system philosophy with a new engine - the LHTEC CTS 800-4A - new avionics, sight systems and weapons, modified airframe, an uprated drive train and a new tail rotor.

A series of talks have been held with various countries, including Pakistan, for the export of ATAK helicopters, which have proven themselves during operations with their superior capabilities. In this context, ATAKs have participated in various international events as part of these quests to showcase its capabilities.

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/...kistan-in-largest-single-military-export-deal

http://www.haberturk.com/ankara-haberleri/15943108-pakistana-30-atak-helikopteri-ihracati


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017664835662774273

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## fatman17

SSM has just announced that Turkish Aerospace Industries has signed a deal with the Pakistan MOD for 30 T129 attack helicopters. Hope to find out more details at Farnborough next week.

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> SSM has just announced that Turkish Aerospace Industries has signed a deal with the Pakistan MOD for 30 T129 attack helicopters. Hope to find out more details at Farnborough next week.


when we have landed first of them then we will talk

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## khanasifm

30 means 3 sqn of 10 at-129 each sqn will also have 2-4 scout heli

Old 3 ah-1 sqn may be consolidated into a single sqn with some used for spares but do not think they will go away in decades or so 

Old ah-1 plus no-35 will cover western front


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> 30 means 3 sqn of 10 at-129 each sqn will also have 2-4 scout heli
> 
> Old 3 ah-1 sqn may be consolidated into a single sqn with some used for spares but do not think they will go away in decades or so
> 
> Old ah-1 plus no-35 will cover western front


2 sqdns of 15 ea


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## Sunny4pak




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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017783265900494848

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> when we have landed first of them then we will talk


no problem. see you in 1 year

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> no problem. see you in 1 year


only one i thought in 2020s


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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*Turkey confirms sale of 30 T129 attack helicopters to Pakistan*
*Lale Sariibrahimoglu, Ankara* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
16 July 2018






Delivery of the 30 T129 helicopters purchased by Pakistan is expected to take place in increments over the coming five years. Source: TAI
Ankara has signed an agreement with Islamabad for the sale of 30 T129 ATAK combat helicopters for the Pakistan Army in a move described by the Presidency of the Republic of Turkey Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSB) – formerly the Turkish Defence Industries Undersecretariat (SSM) – as “the largest single export in the history of the Turkish defence industry”.

“Contract negotiations on T129 ATAK helicopters between Turkish Aerospace Industries [TAI] and the Pakistani Ministry of Defense Production have been officially finalised,” SSB announced in a 13 July statement.

Turkey first revealed the sale of the T129s to Pakistan in the political manifesto that the country’s ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) released in May.

Delivery of the helicopters is expected to take place in increments over the coming five years, according to the local defence industry sources.

While the value of the deal was not officially disclosed, it is believed to be worth about USD1.5 billion, with manufacturer TAI revealing in a separate statement that the contract also features “a comprehensive package including logistics, ammunition, spares, ground support equipment, and training”.

TAI describes the T129 ATAK as “a new-generation, tandem-seat, twin-engine helicopter specifically designed for attack and reconnaissance purposes”, featuring “state-of-the-art avionics and [an] asymmetric weapon delivery capability”, which provides “highly mobile and lethal attack capability against personnel, ground, and air targets”.

Derived from the AgustaWestland A129CBT Mangusta that has been in service with the Italian Army since 2002, the T129 incorporates a modified airframe, new engines, an uprated drive train, a new tail rotor, new displays, and enhanced weapons.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 Do you think the PAA will replace the Pumas next?

Thoughts on potential suitors:

*AW139*

1. In terms of weight, engine power and stated lift capability, the AW139 is very close to the PAA's current Puma. Plus the AW139 was tested (and bought) for its good hot-and-high performance by the PAF.

2. Pakistan understands the AW139's PT6C turboshaft engine fairly well now. In fact, PAC released a tender in 2016 to build a MRO site for the PT6.

3. The dual-PA and PAF AW139 purchase in 2016 means that the infrastructure to absorb the AW139 (e.g. training, GSE, etc) is already in place.

4. Leonardo's CEO just led a delegation to Pakistan and met with the Foreign Minister, MoDP and others. Both sides called for joint defence production, so I think there's opportunity for some parts manufacturing, assembly, etc. 

*Turkish Aerospace/Sikorsky T-70 Blackhawk
*
1. It's basically the same proven S-70i Blackhawk design, but manufactured in Turkey (airframe, engine and avionics). As long as the US DoD is OK with it, Turkey can sell the T-70 to Pakistan.

2. If the AH-1Zs come through, then the PAA can scale the training it will have done for the GE T-700-series to the T-70. Bringing this engine's MRO facilities would also enable Pakistan to look at larger Western helicopters in the future.

3. It'll be costlier to procure than the AW139 though, and the PAF had (as per Alan Warnes) rejected the S-70i in favour of the AW139.

*Airbus H215 Super Puma
*
1. Despite being related to the SA330 Puma, the Super Puma uses a different engine and is larger (basically Mi-8/Mi-17 size).

2. Known for succeeding in rugged environments. The H215 - like the AW139 and S-70i - has seen widespread commercial and armed forces use around the world, so it has plenty of scale, lots of spare parts and used airframes, etc.

3. The unit cost isn't too far from the Mil Mi-17.


----------



## TOPGUN

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 Do you think the PAA will replace the Pumas next?
> 
> Thoughts on potential suitors:
> 
> *AW139*
> 
> 1. In terms of weight, engine power and stated lift capability, the AW139 is very close to the PAA's current Puma. Plus the AW139 was tested (and bought) for its good hot-and-high performance by the PAF.
> 
> 2. Pakistan understands the AW139's PT6C turboshaft engine fairly well now. In fact, PAC released a tender in 2016 to build a MRO site for the PT6.
> 
> 3. The dual-PA and PAF AW139 purchase in 2016 means that the infrastructure to absorb the AW139 (e.g. training, GSE, etc) is already in place.
> 
> 4. Leonardo's CEO just led a delegation to Pakistan and met with the Foreign Minister, MoDP and others. Both sides called for joint defence production, so I think there's opportunity for some parts manufacturing, assembly, etc.
> 
> *Turkish Aerospace/Sikorsky T-70 Blackhawk
> *
> 1. It's basically the same proven S-70i Blackhawk design, but manufactured in Turkey (airframe, engine and avionics). As long as the US DoD is OK with it, Turkey can sell the T-70 to Pakistan.
> 
> 2. If the AH-1Zs come through, then the PAA can scale the training it will have done for the GE T-700-series to the T-70. Bringing this engine's MRO facilities would also enable Pakistan to look at larger Western helicopters in the future.
> 
> 3. It'll be costlier to procure than the AW139 though, and the PAF had (as per Alan Warnes) rejected the S-70i in favour of the AW139.
> 
> *Airbus H215 Super Puma
> *
> 1. Despite being related to the SA330 Puma, the Super Puma uses a different engine and is larger (basically Mi-8/Mi-17 size).
> 
> 2. Known for succeeding in rugged environments. The H215 - like the AW139 and S-70i - has seen widespread commercial and armed forces use around the world, so it has plenty of scale, lots of spare parts and used airframes, etc.
> 
> 3. The unit cost isn't too far from the Mil Mi-17.




I don't think the Puma's are going any where !!


----------



## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 Do you think the PAA will replace the Pumas next?
> 
> Thoughts on potential suitors:
> 
> *AW139*
> 
> 1. In terms of weight, engine power and stated lift capability, the AW139 is very close to the PAA's current Puma. Plus the AW139 was tested (and bought) for its good hot-and-high performance by the PAF.
> 
> 2. Pakistan understands the AW139's PT6C turboshaft engine fairly well now. In fact, PAC released a tender in 2016 to build a MRO site for the PT6.
> 
> 3. The dual-PA and PAF AW139 purchase in 2016 means that the infrastructure to absorb the AW139 (e.g. training, GSE, etc) is already in place.
> 
> 4. Leonardo's CEO just led a delegation to Pakistan and met with the Foreign Minister, MoDP and others. Both sides called for joint defence production, so I think there's opportunity for some parts manufacturing, assembly, etc.
> 
> *Turkish Aerospace/Sikorsky T-70 Blackhawk
> *
> 1. It's basically the same proven S-70i Blackhawk design, but manufactured in Turkey (airframe, engine and avionics). As long as the US DoD is OK with it, Turkey can sell the T-70 to Pakistan.
> 
> 2. If the AH-1Zs come through, then the PAA can scale the training it will have done for the GE T-700-series to the T-70. Bringing this engine's MRO facilities would also enable Pakistan to look at larger Western helicopters in the future.
> 
> 3. It'll be costlier to procure than the AW139 though, and the PAF had (as per Alan Warnes) rejected the S-70i in favour of the AW139.
> 
> *Airbus H215 Super Puma
> *
> 1. Despite being related to the SA330 Puma, the Super Puma uses a different engine and is larger (basically Mi-8/Mi-17 size).
> 
> 2. Known for succeeding in rugged environments. The H215 - like the AW139 and S-70i - has seen widespread commercial and armed forces use around the world, so it has plenty of scale, lots of spare parts and used airframes, etc.
> 
> 3. The unit cost isn't too far from the Mil Mi-17.



What about Z20! Is it a candidate for considerations? An aircraft based on BlackHawk maybe with Turkish input it can be improved upon.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TOPGUN said:


> I don't think the Puma's are going any where !!


IMO there's a limit to how much one can support an aircraft based on just importing spare parts and spare engines, neither of which is in production. It'll just get costlier to fly and maintain them moving forward.

Through the AW139 the PAA and PAF just introduced a very similar helicopter (same engine power, similar MTOW, similar passenger lift, etc) to the Puma. Sure, the point was to replace Alouette IIIs (in the PAF), but they could've gone for lighter helicopters than the AW139. Instead, they went for something that is similar to the Puma.

I think the writing is on the wall for the Puma...


----------



## TOPGUN

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO there's a limit to how much one can support an aircraft based on just importing spare parts and spare engines, neither of which is in production. It'll just get costlier to fly and maintain them moving forward.
> 
> Through the AW139 the PAA and PAF just introduced a very similar helicopter (same engine power, similar MTOW, similar passenger lift, etc) to the Puma. Sure, the point was to replace Alouette IIIs (in the PAF), but they could've gone for lighter helicopters than the AW139. Instead, they went for something that is similar to the Puma.
> 
> I think the writing is on the wall for the Puma...



PA has spares and is not looking to replace the PUMA any time soon simply we can wish and what we want but reality stays as seen in real time !!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TOPGUN said:


> PA has spares and is not looking to replace the PUMA any time soon simply we can wish and what we want but reality stays as seen in real time !!


Let me tag Zarvan here and you'll see what wishing is...

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## Ahmet Pasha

What Turkey's military utility helo program??
And the Russian replacement for mi 17???


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 Do you think the PAA will replace the Pumas next?
> 
> Thoughts on potential suitors:
> 
> *AW139*
> 
> 1. In terms of weight, engine power and stated lift capability, the AW139 is very close to the PAA's current Puma. Plus the AW139 was tested (and bought) for its good hot-and-high performance by the PAF.
> 
> 2. Pakistan understands the AW139's PT6C turboshaft engine fairly well now. In fact, PAC released a tender in 2016 to build a MRO site for the PT6.
> 
> 3. The dual-PA and PAF AW139 purchase in 2016 means that the infrastructure to absorb the AW139 (e.g. training, GSE, etc) is already in place.
> 
> 4. Leonardo's CEO just led a delegation to Pakistan and met with the Foreign Minister, MoDP and others. Both sides called for joint defence production, so I think there's opportunity for some parts manufacturing, assembly, etc.
> 
> *Turkish Aerospace/Sikorsky T-70 Blackhawk
> *
> 1. It's basically the same proven S-70i Blackhawk design, but manufactured in Turkey (airframe, engine and avionics). As long as the US DoD is OK with it, Turkey can sell the T-70 to Pakistan.
> 
> 2. If the AH-1Zs come through, then the PAA can scale the training it will have done for the GE T-700-series to the T-70. Bringing this engine's MRO facilities would also enable Pakistan to look at larger Western helicopters in the future.
> 
> 3. It'll be costlier to procure than the AW139 though, and the PAF had (as per Alan Warnes) rejected the S-70i in favour of the AW139.
> 
> *Airbus H215 Super Puma
> *
> 1. Despite being related to the SA330 Puma, the Super Puma uses a different engine and is larger (basically Mi-8/Mi-17 size).
> 
> 2. Known for succeeding in rugged environments. The H215 - like the AW139 and S-70i - has seen widespread commercial and armed forces use around the world, so it has plenty of scale, lots of spare parts and used airframes, etc.
> 
> 3. The unit cost isn't too far from the Mil Mi-17.


----------



## blinder

GriffinsRule said:


> I am aware. But how does one leap from storage to embargo or cancellation? Besides, if these three are to be delivered later this year with the remainder, it makes perfect sense to store them properly for the next six month or whatever instead of keeping them under a shed in open air doesn't it?


Update: two of the AH-1Z are currently at 309th AMARG storage, Davis Monthan AFB, Arizona, USA.
Not from the first batch of three, but later ones...

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## TOPGUN

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Let me tag Zarvan here and you'll see what wishing is...



You can tag whoever you want brother but its reality trust me when I tell they are not going anywhere anytime soon thanks.

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## AR KHAN

Two Pakistani AH-1Z have been sighted at 309th Aerospace Maintenance And Regeneration Group (AMARG), Davis Monthan AFB (AZ).








__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1020977048330932226


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## fatman17

Ahmed Raza Khan said:


> Two Pakistani AH-1Z have been sighted at 309th Aerospace Maintenance And Regeneration Group (AMARG), Davis Monthan AFB (AZ).
> 
> View attachment 488049
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1020977048330932226


That's not good news


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## Safriz

fatman17 said:


> That's not good news


blessing in disguise.

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> That's not good news


ye to dewaar per likha tha sir

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> ye to dewaar per likha tha sir


True


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> True


 as a common Pakistani when i read about deliveries are after many years i understand its lollypop . generals roti nhi khaty ?

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## Chimgathar




----------



## Path-Finder

check this out 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1023479502415048704

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## danishsaleem

Path-Finder said:


> check this out
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1023479502415048704



and they are very easy targets of AAM's mention that facts as well.


----------



## python-000




----------



## Signalian

Path-Finder said:


> check this out
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1023479502415048704


MmW radar is the difference


----------



## Reichsmarschall

we getting vipers or not?


----------



## STRANGER BIRD



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## Inception-06

@Signalian @django @Gryphon @Starlord
@HRK 
All the information which I post here, are and were publicly available on defence exhibitions held by the Pakistan Military such as the 6. September, ISPR official homepage and a variety of Pakistani Military defence forums such as pakdef.org. I am posting this information for the public of Pakistan to have a better understanding for the armed forces of Pakistan and to present them in a better light for the Pakistani public and youth, to create interest in the Pakistani youth for security and political situation in Pakistan ...so we can say for a better Pakistan defence and awareness!

I am back from Pakistan, my Visit to Helicopter training aviation Base, a short official Interview with a maintenance officer:

Mushak Training aircraft role during wartime will be: communication, observation during peace and wartime, the supply of ammunition and food to 120kg, the rescue of wounded Soldiers, *rocketing and bombing missions on border enemy posts* (the Wings have the preparations for such missions, I asked that three times, till the guy showed me and I touched it, then I believed it 


Enough training Helicopters were parked in the Hangars.

Bell Jet Ranger has still the scout role for the Cobras.

All Soldiers in the base look physically and mentally Fit, the base is in good shape, air defence is fully capable of handling low altitude air intruders.

The Base defence against terrorist ambushes is good but not perfect!


All Lama Helicopters are replaced by the Fennec!

I asked about drone attacks:" yes Army was cooperating with the yanks" but that's not new for us.

I asked about bin Laden killing, especially why our air defence was blind and died, he said:"he cant answer what happened under the Kyani tenure", he said:" but now is a different time."

I asked about nepotism in the military and his experience, he said:" it was very much years ago, but now it does not play such a rule like in the past!"

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## Inception-06

I did forget the to mention that the Pakistani made Yasoob Truck is in full function and service! I was impressed by the design of this truck, really sad that it's out of production!

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## Gryphon

Inception-06 said:


> @Signalian @django @Gryphon @Starlord
> @HRK
> All the information which I post here, are and were publicly available on defence exhibitions held by the Pakistan Military such as the 6. September, ISPR official homepage and a variety of Pakistani Military defence forums such as pakdef.org. I am posting this information for the public of Pakistan to have a better understanding for the armed forces of Pakistan and to present them in a better light for the Pakistani public and youth, to create interest in the Pakistani youth for security and political situation in Pakistan ...so we can say for a better Pakistan defence and awareness!
> 
> I am back from Pakistan, my Visit to Helicopter training aviation Base, a short official Interview with a maintenance officer:
> 
> Mushak Training aircraft role during wartime will be: communication, observation during peace and wartime, the supply of ammunition and food to 120kg, the rescue of wounded Soldiers, *rocketing and bombing missions on border enemy posts* (the Wings have the preparations for such missions, I asked that three times, till the guy showed me and I touched it, then I believed it
> 
> 
> Enough training Helicopters were parked in the Hangars.
> 
> Bell Jet Ranger has still the scout role for the Cobras.
> 
> All Soldiers in the base look physically and mentally Fit, the base is in good shape, air defence is fully capable of handling low altitude air intruders.
> 
> The Base defence against terrorist ambushes is good but not perfect!
> 
> 
> All Lama Helicopters are replaced by the Fennec!
> 
> I asked about drone attacks:" yes Army was cooperating with the yanks" but that's not new for us.
> 
> I asked about bin Laden killing, especially why our air defence was blind and died, he said:"he cant answer what happened under the Kyani tenure", he said:" but now is a different time."
> 
> I asked about nepotism in the military and his experience, he said:" it was very much years ago, but now it does not play such a rule like in the past!"



Lama is being replaced by Ecureuil. Additional orders for Ecureuil helicopters were placed, according to MoDP.

I would like PAA to stick with Fennec + Ecureuil for replacing JetRanger + Lama + Alouette. There are just too many types.

PAA has ordered some AW139 as well, but it is unclear what will they replace. I guess some ageing Mi-8/17.

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## django

Inception-06 said:


> @Signalian @django @Gryphon @Starlord
> @HRK
> All the information which I post here, are and were publicly available on defence exhibitions held by the Pakistan Military such as the 6. September, ISPR official homepage and a variety of Pakistani Military defence forums such as pakdef.org. I am posting this information for the public of Pakistan to have a better understanding for the armed forces of Pakistan and to present them in a better light for the Pakistani public and youth, to create interest in the Pakistani youth for security and political situation in Pakistan ...so we can say for a better Pakistan defence and awareness!
> 
> I am back from Pakistan, my Visit to Helicopter training aviation Base, a short official Interview with a maintenance officer:
> 
> Mushak Training aircraft role during wartime will be: communication, observation during peace and wartime, the supply of ammunition and food to 120kg, the rescue of wounded Soldiers, *rocketing and bombing missions on border enemy posts* (the Wings have the preparations for such missions, I asked that three times, till the guy showed me and I touched it, then I believed it
> 
> 
> Enough training Helicopters were parked in the Hangars.
> 
> Bell Jet Ranger has still the scout role for the Cobras.
> 
> All Soldiers in the base look physically and mentally Fit, the base is in good shape, air defence is fully capable of handling low altitude air intruders.
> 
> The Base defence against terrorist ambushes is good but not perfect!
> 
> 
> All Lama Helicopters are replaced by the Fennec!
> 
> I asked about drone attacks:" yes Army was cooperating with the yanks" but that's not new for us.
> 
> I asked about bin Laden killing, especially why our air defence was blind and died, he said:"he cant answer what happened under the Kyani tenure", he said:" but now is a different time."
> 
> I asked about nepotism in the military and his experience, he said:" it was very much years ago, but now it does not play such a rule like in the past!"


Glad to hear that moral is high, a prerequisite for a capable and effective fighting force, what is of concern is perimeter security, after all the attacks the RAW backed terrorists have perpetrated against our military installations one would assume this issue would have been rectified with extreme urgency, I hope what you observed is a one off.Kudos bro

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> Lama is being replaced by Ecureuil. Additional orders for Ecureuil helicopters were placed, according to MoDP.
> 
> I would like PAA to stick with Fennec + Ecureuil for replacing JetRanger + Lama + Alouette. There are just too many types.
> 
> PAA has ordered some AW139 as well, but it is unclear what will they replace. I guess some ageing Mi-8/17.


It seems the PAA only got 2 of the 14 (? - guess) AW139s ordered, the remainder are slotted for the PAF for SAR (replacing the Alouette III). That said (and I'll get shade for saying this, but...) the weight and performance of the AW139 is very similar to the Puma.

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It seems the PAA only got 2 of the 14 (? - guess) AW139s ordered, the remainder are slotted for the PAF for SAR (replacing the Alouette III). That said (and I'll get shade for saying this, but...) the weight and performance of the AW139 is very similar to the Puma.



It is possible AW139 will replace both the Huey and Puma (in future). The former is in service in small numbers, doesn't make sense to induct another type for replacing few Huey when Bell 412EP is already there, replacement with the heavier AW139 is a good option.

Maintaining the current utility helicopter fleet is a difficult task, too many types in the same weight class.

In the light category, Ecureuil should replace Alouette & Lama.

In the medium category, have Puma (inc. Romanian built versions) & Bell 412EP. Replace Huey (and later Puma) with AW139.
Bell 412EP and AW139 use the same engine series, this would somewhat ease maintenance.

In the heavy category, expand the Mi-17/171 fleet.

I believe PAA is gradually moving in this direction.

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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

412ep are civilian heli product line and perhaps does not come under itar


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## Clairvoyant

Any idea where this video was made,doesnt look like pakistan,its clearly a PA Mi.17

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## ghazi52



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## Amigator

Imad Afridi said:


> Any idea where this video was made,doesnt look like pakistan,its clearly a PA Mi.17



Insane pilot!

Is ne to ander bethe sbhi logon ki chekhen nikal di hon gi.


----------



## Inception-06

Imad Afridi said:


> Any idea where this video was made,doesnt look like pakistan,its clearly a PA Mi.17



It loos like Kazan Russian testing area !


----------



## GriffinsRule

Yeah its in Russia. Pre-delivery test flights


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## Ahmet Pasha

Why only two hard points???? Didnt the Mi24 have more hardpoints???


Imad Afridi said:


> Any idea where this video was made,doesnt look like pakistan,its clearly a PA Mi.17





ghazi52 said:


>

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## Chimgathar

Mi-35m may hit tanks 10km away check at 00:36 (From Army 2018)
https://militaryleak.com/2018/09/01/russian-helicopter-presents-modern-helicopters-at-army-2018/


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## BHarwana

Unconfirmed report of Z10me for PA.

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## fatman17

BHarwana said:


> Unconfirmed report of Z10me for PA.


Something is definitely going on.

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

China’s Z-19E helicopter ready for series production, says report

Gabriel Dominguez, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

15 October 2018

Seen here during its maiden flight in May 2017, the Z-19E, which is the export version of China’s Z-19 attack helicopter, is ready to enter series productions, according to Chinese media reports. Source: Via news.cn

The export version of China's Harbin Aviation Industries (Group) Company (HAIG) Z-19 Black Whirlwind armed reconnaissance/attack helicopter is ready for series production, according to a 13 October report by the state-owned Xinhua news agency.

Citing HAIG's parent company, the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the media outlet reported that the helicopter, which is called Z-19E, "has undergone professional scrutiny regarding its performance tests and passed verifications, demonstrating the model is capable of entering the production phase".

However, the report made no mention of any potential customers for the platform, which underwent 40-day trails in April and early May 2018, according to a 16 May statement issued by AVIC.

The tests involved the live firing of air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground missiles, unguided and guided rockets, as well as of the platform's podded gun systems, AVIC said at the time without providing further details about the tested weapons. The trials also served to verify weapons integration and the fire-control system, the company added.

The narrow-body, tandem-seat Z-19E, which made its first flight on 18 May, is China's first export-oriented attack helicopter.

With a maximum take-off weight of 4,250 kg, the Z-19E is a light armed helicopter providing advantages in cruising speed, climb rate, and usable ceiling, according to its developer.

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## GriffinsRule

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...recognize-correct-number-of-targets-in-tests/

Doesnt bode well for Indian Apaches

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## hassan1

MI-24 gunship Placed at Pak army Museum lahore.

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## fatman17

hassan1 said:


> MI-24 gunship Placed at Pak army Museum lahore.
> View attachment 506742


Afghan war trophy

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## hassan1




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## hassan1



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Send this to Russia for refurbishment and upgrade

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## hassan1



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## S-A-B-E-R->

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Send this to Russia for refurbishment and upgrade


they wont give it back


----------



## Dazzler

Ah, the irony..

the war trophy,,







The recent induction,,,

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## TOPGUN

Guys why don't we have much pic's of our PA pilots here nor a tribute of there great effort from WOT to relief efforts and everyday service thanks.


----------



## ghazi52



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## Safriz

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038093015426977794


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## bananarepublic

does anyone have any pictures of when Pakistan tested the Chinooks ?


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## Imran Khan

bananarepublic said:


> does anyone have any pictures of when Pakistan tested the Chinooks ?


When it was happen ?


----------



## bananarepublic

Imran Khan said:


> When it was happen ?



wayyyyyyyyyy back 
i dont know the exact year
but it was tested and it crashed 
and then it was rejected


----------



## Imran Khan

bananarepublic said:


> wayyyyyyyyyy back
> i dont know the exact year
> but it was tested and it crashed
> and then it was rejected


Never heard abut it sir if you have more info please shear


----------



## ghazi52

High altitude training flight in Azad Kashmir with Alouette conversion course students – Haji Pir Area. Stationed with Army Aviation School 1969.

[Picture Copyright*:* Asad Sagheer]













GOC 12 Division being briefed on operations in Azad Kashmir, Summer 1965. Stationed with 3 Army Aviation Squadron, on mission with 12 Division.

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## Stimpy75

i hope it`s not a repost History of Pakistany Army Aviation 1947-2007
enjoy

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## MIRauf

PA was impressed by Ch-47s during the Earthquake relief effort, however US didn't entertain PA's request for test/trial/purchase.


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## hassan1



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## fatman17

Air-Launched Weapons
*Turkey develops 20 mm cannon for attack helicopters*
*Lale Sariibrahimoglu, Ankara* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
01 November 2018

The Turkish Defence Industries Directorate (SSB) tweeted on 30 October that Turkey is developing a 20 mm cannon for its T129 attack helicopter.

Under the project, a 20 mm cannon with three barrels will be produced locally, with applications for naval and land in addition to air platforms.

During the first phase of the project, 34 20 mm cannons will be produced, including four prototypes. The qualification process for the prototypes will begin 24 months after the project begins.

Turkey hopes the project has export potential.

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## Zulfiqar

Pakistan army aviation 1947-2007 book in text form


https://archive.org/stream/PakistanArmyAviation1947-2007/AviationHistory_djvu.txt


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## SSGcommandoPAK

New Z-10ME,modified according to the requirements of Pakistan Army Aviation,according to Aviation Pilots Pak Army Aviation is really impressed with these modifications and most likely this variant will be inducted, on the other hand there are chances that the AH-1Z viper deal gets blocked thus Z-10ME would be acquired instead.

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## Windjammer



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## FLIR

SSGcommandoPAK said:


> New Z-10ME,modified according to the requirements of Pakistan Army Aviation,according to Aviation Pilots Pak Army Aviation is really impressed with these modifications and most likely this variant will be inducted, on the other hand there are chances that the AH-1Z viper deal gets blocked thus Z-10ME would be acquired instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> looks good but how about the engine?


----------



## Windjammer

*
Contrary to claims by some, the 'Minigun' is very much operational with the PAA.*

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Din't USA take these heli back?


Windjammer said:


> *Contrary to claims by some, the 'Minigun' is very much operational with the PAA.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 518718


----------



## Imran Khan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Din't USA take these heli back?


why they take back ? these are bell 412 EP of pak army .


----------



## khanasifm

Imran Khan said:


> why they take back ? these are bell 412 EP of pak army .



Initial batch of 28 followed by additional 2-4 were delivered which are serving 2-3 sqn I think [emoji848]

Being twin engined vs uh-1 single engine and brand new are much better then uh-1


----------



## Basel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063472824038375424

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## GriffinsRule

Basel said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063472824038375424



Basically confirming what some of us thought made the most common sense.

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## hassan1



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## aziqbal

Anyone know how many Mushsaks PAA operates 

the last I read it was about 20 

why didn't they upgrade to Super Mushsaks like air force 

its main part of pilot training


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## Bossman

aziqbal said:


> Anyone know how many Mushsaks PAA operates
> 
> the last I read it was about 20
> 
> why didn't they upgrade to Super Mushsaks like air force
> 
> its main part of pilot training


More like 100


----------



## aziqbal

Bossman said:


> More like 100



Doubt that Any link ?

Here’s mine

http://tangentlink.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/2022_TangentLink_Pakistan-Army-Report-v1.pdf


----------



## BHarwana

Reports of 5 more Mi35M purchase. Can anyone confirm news.


----------



## fatman17

BHarwana said:


> Reports of 5 more Mi35M purchase. Can anyone confirm news.


Well, the news is, Pakistan is acquiring new batch of Mi35M Gunships from Russia. This 2nd batch is composed of 5 units.
[emoji1191] [emoji635] #IDEAS2018 https://t.co/BdsbrySwdw

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## BHarwana

fatman17 said:


> Well, the news is, Pakistan is acquiring new batch of Mi35M Gunships from Russia. This 2nd batch is composed of 5 units.
> [emoji1191] [emoji635] #IDEAS2018 https://t.co/BdsbrySwdw
> View attachment 522883



This will be the improved variant.


----------



## aziqbal

We need tank busters

I would have preferred Pakistan join T129 II 

Heavy weight powerful engine can carry 16 x ATGM and stop any Indian armoured thrust in its tracks

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## MIRauf

T129-II ready yet ?


----------



## Muhammad Omar

MIRauf said:


> T129-II ready yet ?


Nope will be ready in 2021-22


----------



## HRK

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068451989644816384


----------



## aziqbal

when Turkey initiated the T129 they paid a premium for IP 

whole purpose was so they can export this variant 

now this has happened its bad news 

T129 and Zulus are dependent on US 

even after all those efforts between Turkey and Pakistan we can't ride ourselves of US dependancy


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Handing over Ceremony

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
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## JohnWick

Sulman Badshah said:


> Handing over Ceremony
> View attachment 524591
> 
> View attachment 524592
> View attachment 524593
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 524590


Just only 2.


----------



## Sulman Badshah

JohnWick said:


> Just only 2.


4

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## Awan68

To hell with this camo, they managed to make a badass machine look ordinary.



JohnWick said:


> Just only 2.


Two were delivered before, these are the remaining 2.

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## JohnWick

Sulman Badshah said:


> 4


Just only 4 need atleast 40 of them to deal with the bloachistan threat.


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## Awan68

JohnWick said:


> Just only 4 need atleast 40 of them to deal with the bloachistan threat.


40 is too large a num, 5 more have been ordered, gradually the fleet will number 20. These are enough for anti narcotics n special forces opps. There is no such threat in balochistan for which we need additi9nal weapons.

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## JohnWick

Awan68 said:


> 40 is too large a num, 5 more have been ordered, gradually the fleet will number 20. These are enough for anti narcotics n special forces opps. There is no such threat in balochistan for which we need additi9nal weapons.


There is a threat of Akbar Bukti followers. 
Serious one.


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## Awan68

JohnWick said:


> There is a threat of Akbar Bukti followers.
> Serious one.


Nothing our current arsenal cant handle mate. The final solution in balochistan is political n we have achieved a major part of that goal. Waziristan was a different ball game. This is why no major opp was launched in balochistan. Diff areas, diff solutions. One with the iron hand one with orals of cicero.

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## JohnWick

Awan68 said:


> Nothing our current arsenal cant handle mate. The final solution in balochistan is political n we have achieved a major part of that goal. Waziristan was a different ball game. This is why no major opp was launched in balochistan. Diff areas, diff solutions. One with the iron hand one with orals of cicero.


Operation clean up is now necessary 
My mamo is a in service brig in PA telling that we are soon starting a operation in B province.


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## RescueRanger

JohnWick said:


> Just only 4 need atleast 40 of them to deal with the bloachistan threat.


40? LOL!


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## JohnWick

RescueRanger said:


> 40? LOL!


LoL

!


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## RescueRanger

JohnWick said:


> LoL
> 
> !


Where is the money for 40? Are you paying for them? ... Lol!

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## ACE OF THE AIR

RescueRanger said:


> Where is the money for 40? Are you paying for them? ... Lol!


Bro...
All tax payers are paying... Do now ask those questions that entice others. 
If GOP is sincere than money for defence products is not an issue, remember the story regarding Nuclear Technology and the Statement of PM Bhutto.


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## RescueRanger

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bro...
> All tax payers are paying... Do now ask those questions that entice others.
> If GOP is sincere than money for defence products is not an issue, remember the story regarding Nuclear Technology and the Statement of PM Bhutto.



Our country is in RED ALERT DROUGHT! BUILD A DAM FIRST


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## Signalian

JohnWick said:


> Just only 4 need atleast 40 of them to deal with the bloachistan threat.


Can you tell why 40 are required?


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## SQ8

Signalian said:


> Can you tell why 40 are required?


Khizan ke mausum mein dollar ke darakht pe bahar aagayi hogi

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## GriffinsRule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bro...
> All tax payers are paying... Do now ask those questions that entice others.
> If GOP is sincere than money for defence products is not an issue, remember the story regarding Nuclear Technology and the Statement of PM Bhutto.



Actually most of the tax payers are in fact not paying and never have


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## fatman17

Pakistan army has received all four Mil Mi 35 M gunships from Russia. 
Pakistan has placed order of batch of five more units of Mi35M. Overall Pakistan is looking to raise fleet of 20 units. https://t.co/hpuWjnOkha

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## JohnWick

Signalian said:


> Can you tell why 40 are required?


If you had ability to read I already mentioned it.....


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## ACE OF THE AIR

GriffinsRule said:


> Actually most of the tax payers are in fact not paying and never have


There are fillers and non fillers. All those who are fillers must file their returns each year even if they are of zero income. If they do not file within time they pay fine of Rs.20K as late fee.


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## Signalian

JohnWick said:


> If you had ability to read I already mentioned it.....


no need to be a ....

I am not convinced by your above mentioned so i asked. I can accept the fact that you donot have the capability to defend your numbers.


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## Imran Khan

JohnWick said:


> Ok......so lets discuss
> Did you ever heard the word "Cold Doctrine".
> Its a operation formulated by indian army to separate out Bloachistan as quick as A nuke can not be used.....
> To counter it we need air support......


its a just wet dream of them . in real world they have never reached Lahore which is few km from border . and that was those days when our firepower was only 10% of what we have today . this doctrine may be work if it was not leaked . its been many years now its open . as i thought they use this propaganda when we were heavily busy in FATA to divert our attention . now fate operations over we may have so much reserve forces sitting waiting for cold start .

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## JohnWick

Imran Khan said:


> its a just wet dream of them . in real world they have never reached Lahore which is few km from border . and that was those days when our firepower was only 10% of what we have today . this doctrine may be work if it was not leaked . its been many years now its open . as i thought they use this propaganda when we were heavily busy in FATA to divert our attention . now fate operations over we may have so much reserve forces sitting waiting for cold start .


My only simple Answer is 
16 December ...formulation of Bangladesh.


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## Imran Khan

JohnWick said:


> My only simple Answer is
> 16 December ...formulation of Bangladesh.


 ghddari of whole east pakistan


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## JohnWick

Imran Khan said:


> ghddari of whole east pakistan


some ghaddars are alao located in Bloachistan


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## Imran Khan

JohnWick said:


> some ghaddars are alao located in Bloachistan


some are in every country nothing comparable to bd

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Fantastic image
Should be the first image on the Pakistan Defense Page ......banner
*
FRONT PAGE COVER STORY* kinda image
Shows the timely delivery from Russia

This is what defense purchases are all about you Pay get Helicopter and then you build relation to next level


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## Signalian

JohnWick said:


> Ok......so lets discuss
> Did you ever heard the word "Cold Doctrine".
> Its a operation formulated by indian army to separate out Bloachistan as quick as A nuke can not be used.....
> To counter it we need air support......



There are of lot of variables involved such as Ground forces, Air Force, Intelligence agencies etc, just 40 odd choppers cannot save your day.


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## Windjammer

Mi-17 Engine start up. 





__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## araz

Imran Khan said:


> ghddari of whole east pakistan


Khan Saheb. This is a hugely erroneous post. Kindly refer to history before you make such accusations. This is the blackest part of the history of our Pakistan.
A

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## Aamir Hussain

very little know fact....elections held in 1970 in West Pakistan were very fair. However, things were different in East Pakistan where Justice Abdus Sattar ( A Bengali and later the President of Bangladesh), the then Head of Election Commission of Pakistan, had a strong leaning towards Sheikh Mujib ur Rehman and his party, allowed manipulation of the election process in the east wing that helped Mujib's party to sweep the elections. This and the fact that Bhashani was forced to sit out the elections led to the debacle of East Pakistan otherwise if there would have been free and fair elections as witnessed in West Pakistan and Bhashani would have been contesting the elections, Awami League would have not claimed so many seats. My 2C worth!!

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## Cookie Monster

araz said:


> Khan Saheb. This is a hugely erroneous post. Kindly refer to history before you make such accusations. This is the blackest part of the history of our Pakistan.
> A


I respectfully disagree with u here. Imran bhai is right as far as "ghaddari" goes. I'm not denying the mistreatment of Bengalis. All that happened...all of that was wrong to do on part of west Pakistanis. However under no circumstances should a person conspire with the enemy to backstab his/her own country. Doing that is the very definition of "ghaddari". Injustices have happened everywhere in all ages...they are happening right now. There are many ways to tackle the problem that don't involve betraying ur country. If declaring azadi is the only answer when faced with injustices and discrimination then before long u will see each house declared a nation hoisting its own flag on the rooftop. In a way it was a mistake to start with...to bundle modern day Bangladesh with West Pak as one country bcuz so much difference existed between the two populations but that was the only choice back then. There existed better ways to go our different way than the path that was taken.

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## araz

Cookie Monster said:


> I respectfully disagree with u here. Imran bhai is right as far as "ghaddari" goes. I'm not denying the mistreatment of Bengalis. All that happened...all of that was wrong to do on part of west Pakistanis. However under no circumstances should a person conspire with the enemy to backstab his/her own country. Doing that is the very definition of "ghaddari". Injustices have happened everywhere in all ages...they are happening right now. There are many ways to tackle the problem that don't involve betraying ur country. If declaring azadi is the only answer when faced with injustices and discrimination then before long u will see each house declared a nation hoisting its own flag on the rooftop. In a way it was a mistake to start with...to bundle modern day Bangladesh with West Pak as one country bcuz so much difference existed between the two populations but that was the only choice back then. There existed better ways to go our different way than the path that was taken.


I think we need to discuss this but else where. What I objected to was a blanket label of ghaddari which is unjust. There were many factors in what happened and sheer stupidity on the part of Western PAkistani polity and Beaurocracy to not see what was coming. Even after all had gone wrong there was a salavageable situation. We did not avial it.However let us discuss it else where.
A

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## Signalian

araz said:


> I think we need to discuss this but else where.


East Pakistan was an excellent area for air assault and airborne Ops along with Amphibious Ops. Had Pakistan a good fleet of transport helos and attack Gunships in 1971, things could have been different.

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## Pakhtoon yum

More pictures and less blah blah thx


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## araz

Signalian said:


> East Pakistan was an excellent area for air assault and airborne Ops along with Amphibious Ops. Had Pakistan a good fleet of transport helos and attack Gunships in 1971, things could have been different.


I think we need to discuss this else where. I am sure you are discussing the military aspect of the warfare which ensued. The position from my perspective is that there was no military solution to the situation vis a vis East Pakistan.It was a political situation and should have been resolved politically. Irrespective of what you say Mujeeb had the majority in the General elections. He should have been asked to form a Government and run the country. Instead we labelled him as a traitor when he was begging us to arrest him and extricate him from the hands of Mukti Bahini who had held him hostage. There was an interview carried out by a ggentleman from BBC whom I know fairly well and have a lot of respect for. He says Mujeeb had put a lot of points which were upto negotiations. So essentially the situation could have been resolved.
A

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Army Aviation Fleet by Hamza Tariq,

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## Signalian

araz said:


> I think we need to discuss this else where. I am sure you are discussing the military aspect of the warfare which ensued. The position from my perspective is that there was no military solution to the situation vis a vis East Pakistan.It was a political situation and should have been resolved politically. Irrespective of what you say Mujeeb had the majority in the General elections. He should have been asked to form a Government and run the country. Instead we labelled him as a traitor when he was begging us to arrest him and extricate him from the hands of Mukti Bahini who had held him hostage. There was an interview carried out by a ggentleman from BBC whom I know fairly well and have a lot of respect for. He says Mujeeb had put a lot of points which were upto negotiations. So essentially the situation could have been resolved.
> A


Staying on topic, I am highlighting the much needed PAA attack and transport helis that could have helped in 1971 war in East-Pakistan. IA used helis to circumvent and by-pass "Niazi's fortresses". 
I understand one type of weapon doesn't always win wars but PA doesn't give importance to different aspects of warfare like even now a dedicated airborne/air assault infantry formation (not SF) is missing. Armored formations don't have dedicated gunship squadrons.

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## aziqbal

Those cobras are tired and seriously need replacing

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## mingle

aziqbal said:


> Those cobras are tired and seriously need replacing


Turkish upgrade r coming for these old timers will give them new youth.

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## ghazi52



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## CHI RULES

It is evident that no army can win a war without majority support of population in any part of world as happened in Vietnam where huge resources were available to USA, same is case in Afghanistan. Pakistan lost the battle in East Pakistan when Indian moles entered in education system/ public service immediately after creation of Pakistan. When time was right the enemy made the calculated move.
In case of Baluchistan perhaps Pak organisations have played well to filter foreign moles and have used the carrot and stick policy which is successful and whole situation is in much control. Now is the time to recover the damage done by facilitating the local population of Baluchistan especially educated people.

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## Signalian

CHI RULES said:


> It is evident that no army can win a war without majority support of population in any part of world as happened in Vietnam where huge resources were available to USA, same is case in Afghanistan. Pakistan lost the battle in East Pakistan when Indian moles entered in education system/ public service immediately after creation of Pakistan. When time was right the enemy made the calculated move.
> In case of Baluchistan perhaps Pak organisations have played well to filter foreign moles and have used the carrot and stick policy which is successful and whole situation is in much control. Now is the time to recover the damage done by facilitating the local population of Baluchistan especially educated people.


Baluchistan conflict generated PAA's interest in AH-1's. 30 Iranian AH-1 were provided to Pakistan between 1973-76 to counter insurgency in Baluchistan.


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## GriffinsRule

Looks like more hinds are on the docket according to AFM Feb issue

*Pakistan orders more Mi-35Ms*
PAKISTAN HAS ordered a further five Mi-35M attack helicopters, according to the country’s army officers and Russian officials attending November’s International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) in Karachi.

The Mi-35Ms will reportedly join four examples previously ordered; these were originally believed to have been delivered to the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps by August 2017, but it appears they eventually arrived in the country last April before officially entering service in December.

The Pakistan Army’s Hind operating unit is 4 Army Aviation Squadron, based at Quetta Khalid in Balochistan. - Dave Allport


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Cookie Monster said:


> I respectfully disagree with u here. Imran bhai is right as far as "ghaddari" goes. I'm not denying the mistreatment of Bengalis. All that happened...all of that was wrong to do on part of west Pakistanis. However under no circumstances should a person conspire with the enemy to backstab his/her own country. Doing that is the very definition of "ghaddari". Injustices have happened everywhere in all ages...they are happening right now. There are many ways to tackle the problem that don't involve betraying ur country. If declaring azadi is the only answer when faced with injustices and discrimination then before long u will see each house declared a nation hoisting its own flag on the rooftop. In a way it was a mistake to start with...to bundle modern day Bangladesh with West Pak as one country bcuz so much difference existed between the two populations but that was the only choice back then. There existed better ways to go our different way than the path that was taken.


Don’t forget the genocide of the Muhajir communities in the East Pak for ethnic cleansing in a very systematic manner. The cruelty shown to them is beyond words. Not even babies weren’t spared. Forget about the other horrible stuffs. Once a Muhajir household was raided not a single soul remained alive after being subjected to inhuman torture. Communities after communities simply disappeared...

It all started on March 3, 1971 in a pre planned manner. When finally the Pak Army moved in on March 25, it was too late and too little. After December 16, it again resumed...

The ferocity of the Muhajir maiming and killing was so severe and shocking that the authorities claimed a complete news block. For they feared that a not a single Bengali folk would remain alive in the West Pak!!!

Some glimpses of it can be found in the way the BD soldiers used to kill their officers and torture their family members on a number of occasions...


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## CHI RULES

Signalian said:


> Baluchistan conflict generated PAA's interest in AH-1's. 30 Iranian AH-1 were provided to Pakistan between 1973-76 to counter insurgency in Baluchistan.


Sir first time revealed by anybody that AH-1s were provided by Iran in 70's, that's surprising news for me.


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## Signalian

CHI RULES said:


> Sir first time revealed by anybody that AH-1s were provided by Iran in 70's, that's surprising news for me.


yes, provided to Pakistan, not to Pakistan Army or PAA meaning they were not inducted. These Iranian AH-1's took part in Baloch insurgency and then went back to Iran.

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## khanasifm

Signalian said:


> Baluchistan conflict generated PAA's interest in AH-1's. 30 Iranian AH-1 were provided to Pakistan between 1973-76 to counter insurgency in Baluchistan.



Not
Sure about it only ch-47 transport a few of them were provided there is no evidence I have seen of ah-1 

Can your provide evidence ?


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## Signalian

khanasifm said:


> Not
> Sure about it only ch-47 transport a few of them were provided there is no evidence I have seen of ah-1
> 
> Can your provide evidence ?


I have no evidence.


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## Signalian

khanasifm said:


> Not
> Sure about it only ch-47 transport a few of them were provided there is no evidence I have seen of ah-1
> 
> Can your provide evidence ?


*Iran at War: 1500-1988*
By Kaveh Farrokh

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## Pakhtoon yum

Signalian said:


> *Iran at War: 1500-1988*
> By Kaveh Farrokh
> 
> 
> View attachment 536817


Wait, Iraq did terrorism in Pakistan? So all these years of me thinking the Iraqis were suffering for no reason, was a big lie? They deserve what has come to them, then. So much for brotherly countries.


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## Sulman Badshah

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Wait, Iraq did terrorism in Pakistan? So all these years of me thinking the Iraqis were suffering for no reason, was a big lie? They deserve what has come to them, then. So much for brotherly countries.


Iraq supported Baloch insurgent mainly against Iran ... But their consequences have been suffered by Pakistan

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## Aamir Hussain

a full train load of arms were recovered from Iraqi counsel in Quetta back in early 70's. We are and have been idiots in supporting Iraq who was working against Pakistan in conjunction with India and USSR to fuel Baloch insurgency. 

Read history for God's sake.... and understand that there is no such thing as "Brotherly" country!!!!

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## HRK

=================================================


Signalian said:


> *Iran at War: 1500-1988*
> By Kaveh Farrokh
> 
> 
> View attachment 536817

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## khanasifm

Signalian said:


> *Iran at War: 1500-1988*
> By Kaveh Farrokh
> 
> 
> View attachment 536817



Claimed , asserted .... 
tells you all


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## Pakhtoon yum

Aamir Hussain said:


> a full train load of arms were recovered from Iraqi counsel in Quetta back in early 70's. We are and have been idiots in supporting Iraq who was working against Pakistan in conjunction with India and USSR to fuel Baloch insurgency.
> 
> Read history for God's sake.... and understand that there is no such thing as "Brotherly" country!!!!


Ya ik, I was just making it clear



Aamir Hussain said:


> a full train load of arms were recovered from Iraqi counsel in Quetta back in early 70's. We are and have been idiots in supporting Iraq who was working against Pakistan in conjunction with India and USSR to fuel Baloch insurgency.
> 
> Read history for God's sake.... and understand that there is no such thing as "Brotherly" country!!!!


They deserve every pain they got.

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## GriffinsRule

This is the level of Pakistan-Iran relationships that we need to get back to, and will inshallah


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## Signalian

khanasifm said:


> Claimed , asserted ....
> tells you all


I didn't read it here nor did i hear about it from this book,i just found it online.


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## Aamir Hussain

The Iranians had an interest in this...they were themselves fighting a Bloch insurgency in their part of Sistan wa Balochistan at that time. 

So no "Brotherly" support just converging interests!!

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## Windjammer



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## araz

Aamir Hussain said:


> The Iranians had an interest in this...they were themselves fighting a Bloch insurgency in their part of Sistan wa Balochistan at that time.
> 
> So no "Brotherly" support just converging interests!!


And yet we cannot look past brotherly relations and sisterly felicitations!!! We need to understand that the modern day Governance is one of converging and diverging national interests and friendships based on them. If you want ot see Iranian reaction try starting drilling in the Baluchistan Iran border and see how friendly the mullahs will be to you.
the real question then is what should be done when our Prophet SAW has taught us that there is a Muslim brotherhood which must be hnoured?
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> And yet we cannot look past brotherly relations and sisterly felicitations!!! We need to understand that the modern day Governance is one of converging and diverging national interests and friendships based on them. If you want ot see Iranian reaction try starting drilling in the Baluchistan Iran border and see how friendly the mullahs will be to you.
> *the real question then is what should be done when our Prophet SAW has taught us that there is a Muslim brotherhood which must be hnoured?*
> A


Just a side-point, but brotherhood in that sense was doable when there was one state. Otherwise it was interstate war (Ottomans/Safavid), provincial turf fights (e.g. X warlord running over Y warlord), or enforced consolidation (e.g. Mughals).

I mean, we're quite shaky already given the provincial gaps in Pakistan, so the idea that each Muslim state has divergent interests isn't at all surprising. The one time there was semblence of unity (quasi unity) was when someone forced it (e.g. Nasser) or threw money at it (Faisal). 

Unlike Europe we lack power centers like Germany to take lead and arm twist out of line states.

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## niaz

We already know that the largest gas field in the world lies across the Qatar/Iran economic zones in the Gulf and is shared between the two countries. To the best of my info, no border dispute exists between Pakistan & Iran. Therefore as long as we remain within Pakistani territorial land & sea zone limits, I for one don’t see any problems with Iran or the Mullahs.

On the contrary, since all the Iranian known hydrocarbon discoveries are located far away from the Pakistan /Iran border; if we do fight hydrocarbon structure near Iran border, Iranian would be happy because the probability of finding hydrocarbon-bearing structures on their side would also increase.

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## HRK



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## TOPGUN

HRK said:


> View attachment 538902
> View attachment 538903
> View attachment 538904



HRK, thanks so much for sharing so PA does have 3 Vipers helis from what I understand ?


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## HRK

TOPGUN said:


> HRK, thanks so much for sharing so PA does have 3 Vipers helis from what I understand ?


this is what they are reporting and its surprising

-----------------------------------------------------------
*

IDEAS 2018 Special - ROKETSAN Ready to Deliver Pakistan's ATAK Helicopters*
(source)
February 11, 2019

The news in the IDEAS 2018 Special File in the 171th issue of MSI is shared on the magazine's website:




These two missile systems were the main focus of IDEAS 2018, which provided *UMTAS and CIRIT missiles and the attacker power of ATAK helicopter. Pakistan's ATAK helicopter order includes the supply of UMTAS laser-guided version L-UMTAS.*

ROKETSAN Market Development and Promotion Director Hüdai Özdamar said about the agenda of Pakistan: yan _In addition to the negotiations within the scope of ATAK, we are discussing both with Pakistan Land Forces and with long-range and medium-range anti-tank missile systems. Our contacts on medium-range anti-tank missiles have reached a serious level._ In Turkey, we have made some tests in accordance with procurement processes and Pakistan, *some tests will be done in Pakistan*. *We are talking about the details of these tests and are planning to perform in 2019. Another issue is the reactive armor of tanks in Pakistan's inventory. Our discussions on this issue also came to a certain stage. Again, we did some tests in Turkey. We will do tests in Pakistan. Pakistan*

Özdamar also shared his impressions about the fair: izlenim We had high level visitors, including decision makers. These are not just courtesy visits; indeed, the details of the projects were discussed in the form of meetings. _*It has been one of the most productive fairs we have experienced recently*. How the projects should be handled, details, how to proceed, were discussed at the highest level. We hope that there will be very positive developments in the Pakistan front next year._

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## TOPGUN

HRK said:


> this is what they are reporting and its surprising
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> *
> 
> IDEAS 2018 Special - ROKETSAN Ready to Deliver Pakistan's ATAK Helicopters*
> (source)
> February 11, 2019
> 
> The news in the IDEAS 2018 Special File in the 171th issue of MSI is shared on the magazine's website:
> View attachment 538924
> 
> These two missile systems were the main focus of IDEAS 2018, which provided *UMTAS and CIRIT missiles and the attacker power of ATAK helicopter. Pakistan's ATAK helicopter order includes the supply of UMTAS laser-guided version L-UMTAS.*
> 
> ROKETSAN Market Development and Promotion Director Hüdai Özdamar said about the agenda of Pakistan: yan _In addition to the negotiations within the scope of ATAK, we are discussing both with Pakistan Land Forces and with long-range and medium-range anti-tank missile systems. Our contacts on medium-range anti-tank missiles have reached a serious level._ In Turkey, we have made some tests in accordance with procurement processes and Pakistan, *some tests will be done in Pakistan*. *We are talking about the details of these tests and are planning to perform in 2019. Another issue is the reactive armor of tanks in Pakistan's inventory. Our discussions on this issue also came to a certain stage. Again, we did some tests in Turkey. We will do tests in Pakistan. Pakistan*
> 
> Özdamar also shared his impressions about the fair: izlenim We had high level visitors, including decision makers. These are not just courtesy visits; indeed, the details of the projects were discussed in the form of meetings. _*It has been one of the most productive fairs we have experienced recently*. How the projects should be handled, details, how to proceed, were discussed at the highest level. We hope that there will be very positive developments in the Pakistan front next year._



Interesting, if true how these 3 birds are kept under wraps as of now.

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## HRK

TOPGUN said:


> Interesting, if true how these 3 birds are kept under wraps as of now.


might be they are still not in Pakistan, like handed over to Pakistani official in US but delivery is still in pending .... this was previously reported by one of the member of the forum (NOTE: forgetting his name, I think he was Oscar and then one US member (professional by title) also reported the same from his source)

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## GriffinsRule

The helicopters were handed over in Sept or Nov in FL or something. Its been reported in other publications and posted on the forum. They are in the US.

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## Chimgathar

Good to hear PAA has 3 vipers, but its a question mark about delivery of remaining vipers. So ATAK T-129 will be eventually the more dependable attack platform.
ROKETSAN also has a land variant of guided Anti tank missile it will be interesting if PA check this missile.

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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> HRK, thanks so much for sharing so PA does have 3 Vipers helis from what I understand ?


Nope delivery suspended


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## Dazzler

fatman17 said:


> Nope delivery suspended




AMR claiming that 3 Zs delivered to PA.


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## GriffinsRule

Found it ...
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/whit...er-problem-for-pa.545613/page-3#post-10292107

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## ZedZeeshan

fatman17 said:


> Nope delivery suspended


Delivery is not suspended


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## mdmm

*HRKPDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT-*
*Your great information shows like Pakistan will not receive nay helicopter fron Turkey and USA, due to US (indian friend) restrictions on Pakistan ??*
*Will it also effect helicopter purchase fron China??*


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## jupiter2007

mdmm said:


> *HRKPDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT-*
> *Your great information shows like Pakistan will not receive nay helicopter fron Turkey and USA, due to US (indian friend) restrictions on Pakistan ??*
> *Will it also effect helicopter purchase fron China??*



It’s not true, and even if it was true, why would it effect purchase anything from China. China can make the sale without making it Public. 

I think Turkey is a done deal. USA will not pressure Turkey on the sale.

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## IHK_PK

mdmm said:


> I was reading that Turkey is buying the engines for T-129 from USA.As a rule Turkey applied for License for those engines to install in T-129 for Pakistan.During several months USA did not issued License to Turkey.At the same time USA has put new restrictions on Turkey in 2019 . Is Turkey managing to install any other engines in those thirty of T-129 .
> In that situation Pakistan must get attack Helicopter from either China , Russia Brazil ,Italy or Indonesia .


Indonesia???


----------



## mdmm

IHK_PK said:


> Indonesia???


in Pakistan, defence authority have never think about Indonesia making specific militiary hardwares. 
Just go and do research.I am not a militiary professional.
This is time for Pak army to do or die ,on east and west borders.

*thank you Mr. F*atman17- *PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT , 
for enhancing our knowledge.
I wish Pakistan manufacture a helicopter(with help from Turkey,China,Brazil) ,with inclusion of most modern features . The plan for a joint T-129 manufacturing with Turkey in Pakistan is hanging ,due to US, License issuance to Turkey for Pakistan .*


----------



## mdmm

*Kindly input any news about plan for a supplying thirty T-129 by Turkey to Pakistan is ok in time or is inactive/terminated, due to US, License issuance to Turkey for Pakistan .*


----------



## fatman17

mdmm said:


> *Kindly input any news about plan for a supplying thirty T-129 by Turkey to Pakistan is ok in time or is inactive/terminated, due to US, License issuance to Turkey for Pakistan .*


I believe that Turkey has overcome any sanctions hurdles and Pakistan should get the T129 in the near to medium term. IA

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Delivery of China’s heavy-lift helicopter forecast for 2032

Andrew Tate, London - Jane's Defence Weekly

12 March 2019

The joint Sino-Russian project to develop and build a 40-tonne helicopter is expected to deliver the first aircraft in 2032, Chinese state-owned newspaper Global Timesreported on 10 March.

The paper quoted comments made by Wu Ximing, chief helicopter designer for the Aviation Industry of China (AVIC), who was speaking at a press conference given by Chinese legislators and political advisers in the field of aviation.

Chinese rotary-wing specialist Avicopter unveiled a revised model of its AHL helicopter concept at the 2017 China Helicopter Exposition, which ran from 14 to 17 September in Tianjin. The first platform resulting from the joint Sino-Russian project is expected to be delivered in 2032, according to Chinese state media. (Via FYJS website)

Wu commented that China “lacks experience in technologies related to the transmission system” and is looking to benefit from Russia’s knowledge gained through developing heavy lift helicopters, such as the 56-tonne Mi-26. Previous reports have indicated that the platform will be powered by Ukrainian Motor Sich JSC/Ivchenko-Progress AI-136T turboshaft engines.

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## mdmm

fatman17 said:


> I believe that Turkey has overcome any sanctions hurdles and Pakistan should get the T129 in the near to medium term. IA


***********************************************************
Thank you very much.


----------



## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Delivery of China’s heavy-lift helicopter forecast for 2032
> 
> Andrew Tate, London - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 12 March 2019
> 
> The joint Sino-Russian project to develop and build a 40-tonne helicopter is expected to deliver the first aircraft in 2032, Chinese state-owned newspaper Global Timesreported on 10 March.
> 
> The paper quoted comments made by Wu Ximing, chief helicopter designer for the Aviation Industry of China (AVIC), who was speaking at a press conference given by Chinese legislators and political advisers in the field of aviation.
> 
> Chinese rotary-wing specialist Avicopter unveiled a revised model of its AHL helicopter concept at the 2017 China Helicopter Exposition, which ran from 14 to 17 September in Tianjin. The first platform resulting from the joint Sino-Russian project is expected to be delivered in 2032, according to Chinese state media. (Via FYJS website)
> 
> Wu commented that China “lacks experience in technologies related to the transmission system” and is looking to benefit from Russia’s knowledge gained through developing heavy lift helicopters, such as the 56-tonne Mi-26. Previous reports have indicated that the platform will be powered by Ukrainian Motor Sich JSC/Ivchenko-Progress AI-136T turboshaft engines.
> 
> 
> View attachment 545968


2023 or 2032 sir ? 2032 tak kon jiyee kon mary

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> 2023 or 2032 sir ? 2032 tak kon jiyee kon mary


Don't worry matey.

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## ghazi52

PA Mi35M flying with external fuel tanks and IR Suppressors.

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## Danish saleem

ghazi52 said:


> PA Mi35M flying with external fuel tanks and IR Suppressors.



why we always use blue color in bottom?


----------



## khail007

Danish saleem said:


> why we always use blue color in bottom?



IMO it is good camouflage in the blue skies while you try to locate craft from earth's surface.

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## Danish saleem

khail007 said:


> IMO it is good camouflage in the blue skies while you try to locate craft from earth's surface.



really,

but when ever i looked them flying, i saw black machine flying? is that blue really a camouflage?


----------



## mdmm

I heard Pakistan is ordering more Mi35M helicopters ???
When will Pakistan get T-129 from Turkey ???
Pakistan need them on eastern border now .


----------



## fatman17

mdmm said:


> I heard Pakistan is ordering more Mi35M helicopters ???
> When will Pakistan get T-129 from Turkey ???
> Pakistan need them on eastern border now .


Pakistan will purchase upto 20 examples. 5 delivered and next batch of 5 ordered to be split between PAA and ANF.

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## Cornered Tiger

fatman17 said:


> 5 delivered and next batch of 5 ordered to be split between PAA



How many PAA will operate? and How many will go to ANF? What role they will undertake for ANF?


----------



## fatman17

Cornered Tiger said:


> How many PAA will operate? and How many will go to ANF? What role they will undertake for ANF?


Actually all will be under PAA control but at least 5 subordinated to ANF for anti narcotics and smuggling interdiction. To be based at Quetta / Samugli.

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## Cornered Tiger

fatman17 said:


> Actually all will be under PAA control but at least 5 subordinated to ANF for anti narcotics and smuggling interdiction. To be based at Quetta / Samugli.



Interesting. Sir how many units a single squadron in PAA contains? Mi-35s are given to which squadron?


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## fatman17

Cornered Tiger said:


> Interesting. Sir how many units a single squadron in PAA contains? Mi-35s are given to which squadron?


12 to 20 depending on the examples available. I don't know about the sqn but could be a new sqn raised once all 20 are delivered.

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## mdmm

fatman17 said:


> 12 to 20 depending on the examples available. I don't know about the sqn but could be a new sqn raised once all 20 are delivered.


************************************************************************
Thank you very much, *fatman17PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
for nice knowledge.
So a total of twenty Mi 35s helicopters has been purchased by Pakistan Army. Any rough idea,when will Pakistan receive/deliverd, all of them ??*


----------



## fatman17

mdmm said:


> ************************************************************************
> Thank you very much, *fatman17PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
> for nice knowledge.
> So a total of twenty Mi 35s helicopters has been purchased by Pakistan Army. Any rough idea,when will Pakistan receive/deliverd, all of them ??*


Depends on availability of finances. Best bet is 5 per year

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## khanasifm

Paa sqn are assigned 10-14 heli forexample cobra sqn has 10 cobras plus 4/5 or so scouts bell 402s I think assigned

Same for puma and mi-171 sqn

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## Reichsmarschall

lots of Mi 17s taking off from Qasim AAB.


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## Muhammad Omar

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan will purchase upto 20 examples. 5 delivered and next batch of 5 ordered to be split between PAA and ANF.


I think Russia delivered 4 sir not 5. Follow-up order is of 5


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## fatman17

Muhammad Omar said:


> I think Russia delivered 4 sir not 5. Follow-up order is of 5


Fair enough


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## Windjammer



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## Zulfiqar

Windjammer said:


>



What is that weird thing on right most hard point of MI 35.


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## Dazzler

Zulfiqar said:


> What is that weird thing on right most hard point of MI 35.



Attachment for carrying 8 atgms on a single hardpoint.

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## ghazi52



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## Khafee

ghazi52 said:


>


Tank killer

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## Ahmet Pasha

Did Mi35 come with more than just unguided rockets i.e no smart weaponry????


fatman17 said:


> Fair enough


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

Dazzler said:


> Attachment for carrying 8 atgms on a single hardpoint.


India is retiring Mi 35 theb why have we bought them?


----------



## syed_yusuf

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> India is retiring Mi 35 theb why have we bought them?



India will be retiring mi24


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## Imran Khan

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> India is retiring Mi 35 theb why have we bought them?




sir its not like this 

even we retiring mi-17 and buying new too
USA retiring f-16 but still orders of Bahrain and Taiwan and many more waiting
USA retiring c-17 and India was purchasing it
same time so many countries retired their Chinook and India and many waiting for order to be deliver 

its not work like what you think . new blocks come old blocks retired .

you can see paksitani mi-17 gifted to afghanistan and scrapped but same time we are buying more mi-17

we are using c-130 since last 60 years and india buy them now world have retired tons of c-130s

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## fatman17

Check this beast

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## fatman17

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Did Mi35 come with more than just unguided rockets i.e no smart weaponry????


We're trying to integrate the Bakhtar Shikan ATGW, like we did with the cobras.

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## TaimiKhan

Cornered Tiger said:


> Interesting. Sir how many units a single squadron in PAA contains? Mi-35s are given to which squadron?


For now the Mi-35s are with the 4th air assault sqd / group. 

Sent from my HTC One X9 dual sim using Defence.pk mobile app

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## MIRauf

Bakhtar Shikan ATGW is Wire Guided, chopper has to hover while missile is in flight, why not KD-10 etc to fire, forget and fly away ?, since it seems that integration of different weapon is not an issue.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Rocketsan/Havelsan/TAI products in upcoming future like Umtas and L-Umtas etc


MIRauf said:


> Bakhtar Shikan ATGW is Wire Guided, chopper has to hover while missile is in flight, why not KD-10 etc to fire, forget and fly away ?, since it seems that integration of different weapon is not an issue.

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## Cornered Tiger

TaimiKhan said:


> For now the Mi-35s are with the 4th air assault sqd / group.



Thanks. You mean No.4 Squadron "Gallants" stationed at Quetta?


----------



## Imran Khan

MIRauf said:


> Bakhtar Shikan ATGW is Wire Guided, chopper has to hover while missile is in flight, why not KD-10 etc to fire, forget and fly away ?, since it seems that integration of different weapon is not an issue.


the time when we work on it in late 90s we have no choice we were under sanctions ,


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## Keysersoze

MIRauf said:


> Bakhtar Shikan ATGW is Wire Guided, chopper has to hover while missile is in flight, why not KD-10 etc to fire, forget and fly away ?, since it seems that integration of different weapon is not an issue.


These helicopters have been purchased for a different role. The AH1Z and ATAKs are for tank killing. These MI35s have been purchased for a combat insertion/support role I'll wager.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Yeah looks like mostly for SSG/SOW of FC Balochistan maybe even of FC KP and ANF.

But it wouldn't be out of this world for the Mi35 program to take a more conventional turn down the road.

I am more interested in how things turn out regarding Mi28NE and Atak II. As rumors were a couple of years ago PAA evaluating Mi28NE and recently I think Asif Ghafoor or someone else said Pakistan appreciates Russian mediation and that Pakistan is interested in Russian air assets and air defence assets etc.

Also Atak II which seems to be in a much more heavier anti armor role.

These two are more important programs.


Keysersoze said:


> These helicopters have been purchased for a different role. The AH1Z and ATAKs are for tank killing. These MI35s have been purchased for a combat insertion/support role I'll wager.

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## Dazzler



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## BHarwana

Is Pakistan fusing Hermes-A with Mi-35?


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## ghazi52

.






Special Services Group (SSG) commandos perform during the Pakistan Day parade in Islamabad.

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## Keysersoze

ghazi52 said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Special Services Group (SSG) commandos perform during the Pakistan Day parade in Islamabad.


Ah the old Puma...I fell out of one of those once whilst it was hovering......Good times...


----------



## khanasifm

http://warnesysworld.com/former-pakistan-army-mi-8mtv-1s-use-training-germany/


----------



## waq

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1111708247470338048


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## Sulman Badshah

So All nine AH1Z are in storage


----------



## Khafee

Sulman Badshah said:


> So All nine AH1Z are in storage


Not coming?

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## Jinn Baba

Khafee said:


> Not coming?



If they were coming - they would have been here by now. Already well over a year late. Tata kar do.

Although, I do wonder whether we ever got deliveries of the Hellfire missiles? They could have been delivered before the Zulus were supposed to be.



fatman17 said:


> Check this beast
> View attachment 549017



Reminds me of PIA. 6 men doing a 1 man job.



Dazzler said:


> View attachment 549315



PA destroyed the look of the Mi35 with that blue underbelly. If it was so useful to use blue- why isn't it used in the other helicopters?

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## SQ8

Jinn Baba said:


> If they were coming - they would have been here by now. Already well over a year late. Tata kar do.
> 
> Although, I do wonder whether we ever got deliveries of the Hellfire missiles? They could have been delivered before the Zulus were supposed to be.
> 
> 
> 
> Reminds me of PIA. 6 men doing a 1 man job.
> 
> 
> 
> PA destroyed the look of the Mi35 with that blue underbelly. If it was so useful to use blue- why isn't it used in the other helicopters?


It is used in many helicopters as a camouflage against ground fire

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## TheDarkKnight

Jinn Baba said:


> PA destroyed the look of the Mi35 with that blue underbelly. If it was so useful to use blue- why isn't it used in the other helicopters?


How pretty something looks wont even be the last thing in a soldiers mind.

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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> It is used in many helicopters as a camouflage against ground fire


True, but this blue, reminds one of the word "florescent." A lighter shade would have been more appropriate?

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## air marshal

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1548163011984144


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## nomi007




----------



## fatman17

"In 2010, Jordan transferred 16 AH-1F helicopters to Pakistan, under a US-sponsored support program that provided Islamabad with 40 AH-1 refurbished helicopters."
DID

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## Danish saleem

ghazi52 said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Special Services Group (SSG) commandos perform during the Pakistan Day parade in Islamabad.



this puma looked different then present in our Inventory! some kind of upgrade i think so


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

waq said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1111708247470338048


Pakistan ordered 9?


----------



## Khafee

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Pakistan ordered 9?


11

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Mil-Mi-35M-Hind/1775

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## Lone Ranger

Khafee said:


> 11


12*

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## Khafee

Lone Ranger said:


> 12*


12 was intial order, then 11 built, now there is talk of 12 (initial ) +12

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## Lone Ranger

Khafee said:


> 12 was intial order, then 11 built, now there is talk of 12 (initial ) +12


total 24?


----------



## Khafee

Lone Ranger said:


> total 24?


Yes

Bal 12 in negotiation phase. Was offered during the recent Centcom Commanders visit.

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> Yes
> 
> Bal 12 in negotiation phase. Was offered during the recent Centcom Commanders visit.


You mean AH1z to Pak? If yes my take is next offer would be F-16 s

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## AsifIjaz

Regarding pak defence needs there are only 4 big tickets carrots left with usa.

1.. Used and new vipers
2.. Ah1z
3.. T129 engines
4.. P3c orions.. Least of the 4

Usa knows it well and wud like to milk these to the maximum hence vipers, atleast the new ones wont b offered tht easily or this early

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> Yes
> 
> Bal 12 in negotiation phase. Was offered during the recent Centcom Commanders visit.


@Khafee then I doubt that Pak will buy Russian jets or helis except Hinds or Mi26 buying jets for PAF logical is more F16



AsifIjaz said:


> Regarding pak defence needs there are only 4 big tickets carrots left with usa.
> 
> 1.. Used and new vipers
> 2.. Ah1z
> 3.. T129 engines
> 4.. P3c orions.. Least of the 4
> 
> Usa knows it well and wud like to milk these to the maximum hence vipers, atleast the new ones wont b offered tht easily or this early


Navy wants P8 too plus refueling tankers



AsifIjaz said:


> Regarding pak defence needs there are only 4 big tickets carrots left with usa.
> 
> 1.. Used and new vipers
> 2.. Ah1z
> 3.. T129 engines
> 4.. P3c orions.. Least of the 4
> 
> Usa knows it well and wud like to milk these to the maximum hence vipers, atleast the new ones wont b offered tht easily or this early


Americans have a traditional trick u ask them used F16 via third party they will refuse u. Candi Rice did during Mush era now pompe is doing they know and they also like PAF extremely happy with F16s performance against MKi s and shooting it down PAF will buy new F16s if they want old ones beacuse new jets where profit is for LM not old ones recently they did with Croatia was buying isreali SUFA F16 Trump admistration shot it down asking them to buy new ones my take is few months down we will see new F16s again for PAF.Abbasi was DC back months asking American to buy P8 system Navy looking Japanese used P3C but wants P8 from US.



mingle said:


> @Khafee then I doubt that Pak will buy Russian jets or helis except Hinds or Mi26 buying jets for PAF logical is more F16
> 
> 
> Navy wants P8 too plus refueling tankers
> 
> 
> Americans have a traditional trick u ask them used F16 via third party they will refuse u. Candi Rice did during Mush era now pompe is doing they know and they also like PAF extremely happy with F16s performance against MKi s and shooting it down PAF will buy new F16s if they want old ones beacuse new jets where profit is for LM not old ones recently they did with Croatia was buying isreali SUFA F16 Trump admistration shot it down asking them to buy new ones my take is few months down we will see new F16s again for PAF.Abbasi was DC back months asking American to buy P8 system Navy looking Japanese used P3C but wants P8 from US.


I must say I am happy things start melting with US for Pak..US our tradional Allie and we have invested 70 yrs in this friendship so we should keep them on our side and having good terms with them.

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## Cool_Soldier

I have some hope for A1Z1 Helicopters to be delivered to PAA.
But F-16 ….don't think so.

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## Signalian

Cool_Soldier said:


> I have some hope for A1Z1 Helicopters to be delivered to PAA.
> But F-16 ….don't think so.


AH-1Z and F-16 share the same problem. so if one is delivered, the other can be delivered too.

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## Cool_Soldier

Hmmm, lets hope for the best.


----------



## TOPGUN

Khafee said:


> Yes
> 
> Bal 12 in negotiation phase. Was offered during the recent Centcom Commanders visit.



Is this conformed news bro ?

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## Khafee

TOPGUN said:


> Is this conformed news bro ?


What do you think?

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## TOPGUN

Khafee said:


> What do you think?



Well, coming from you yes

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## Pakistani Fighter

Khafee said:


> Yes
> 
> Bal 12 in negotiation phase. Was offered during the recent Centcom Commanders visit.


How is AH 1Z better than Apaches which India is getting?



AsifIjaz said:


> Regarding pak defence needs there are only 4 big tickets carrots left with usa.
> 
> 1.. Used and new vipers
> 2.. Ah1z
> 3.. T129 engines
> 4.. P3c orions.. Least of the 4
> 
> Usa knows it well and wud like to milk these to the maximum hence vipers, atleast the new ones wont b offered tht easily or this early


P3Cs are too old now. Go for P8s but India has them


----------



## Khafee

TOPGUN said:


> Well, coming from you yes


IA



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> How is AH 1Z better than Apaches which India is getting?


More sanction proof, and marginally less rate of climb, that's it. Zulu shares a lot of parts with Bell 412, which is commercially available around the world.

The MWM will come via the same route the DFRM came. 



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> P3Cs are too old now. Go for P8s but India has them



P3C's upgrades are on the table, with these upgrades they will be as good as the P8's

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## untitled

Khafee said:


> ..... they will be as good as .....


Turkish Ataks too? Are they cleared as well?

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## Pakistani Fighter

Khafee said:


> IA
> 
> 
> More sanction proof, and marginally less rate of climb, that's it. Zulu shares a lot of parts with Bell 412, which is commercially available around the world.
> 
> The MWM will come via the same route the DFRM came.
> 
> 
> 
> P3C's upgrades are on the table, with these upgrades they will be as good as the P8's


But P3Cs were upgraded lately. Hasn't they?


----------



## Khafee

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> But P3Cs were upgraded lately. Hasn't they?


When were they last upgraded?

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## TOPGUN

Khafee said:


> IA
> 
> 
> More sanction proof, and marginally less rate of climb, that's it. Zulu shares a lot of parts with Bell 412, which is commercially available around the world.
> 
> The MWM will come via the same route the DFRM came.
> 
> 
> 
> P3C's upgrades are on the table, with these upgrades they will be as good as the P8's



Inshallah !!

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## Khafee

member.exe said:


> Turkish Ataks too? Are they cleared as well?


Yes.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Khafee said:


> Yes.


Can I become a Nigerian prince?

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## Khafee

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Can I become a Nigerian prince?


Your life, feel free to become a tooth fairy for all I care.

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> When were they last upgraded?


@Khafee what ur take on F16s program will we get New ones or old Jordanian ones??

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## Khafee

mingle said:


> @Khafee what ur take on F16s program will we get New ones or old Jordanian ones??


It's all about the money, what ever PAF can afford.

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## Irfan Baloch

mingle said:


> @Khafee what ur take on F16s program will we get New ones or old Jordanian ones??


political issue
the end user clause means America approves the third party sales/ resales. and given the current political climate and Indian lobbying.. there is less chance that America will allow such resale let alone new ones.

only chance to get these jets is if America wants us to hunt down more SU 30s to increase F-16 sales

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## Khafee

Irfan Baloch said:


> political issue
> the end user clause means America approves the third party sales/ resales. and *given the current political climate and Indian lobbying.. there is less chance that America will allow such resale let alone new ones.*
> 
> only chance to get these jets is if America wants us to hunt down more SU 30s to increase F-16 sales



This hurdle was crossed, after the recent Centcom Commanders visit.

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## Irfan Baloch

Khafee said:


> This hurdle was crossed, after the recent Centcom Commanders visit.


if you say so
bless you. we will shoot down more SU 30s then

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## Khafee

Irfan Baloch said:


> if you say so
> bless you. we will shoot down more SU 30s then


Have a feeling rafay's will be joining sukhois in the hereafter as well.

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> Have a feeling rafay's will be joining sukhois in the hereafter as well.


Only if we have F16s with AESA along Bkl 3 with AESA. I believe modi betting on Rafale is nothing but delusions. It's a good plane but pretty much at par with blk 70 and F16V

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Khafee said:


> What do you think?


After Modi's approaching the "forbidden tree" so early in the game everything's possible now...

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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> Only if we have F16s with AESA along Bkl 3 with AESA. I believe modi betting on Rafale is nothing but delusions. It's a good plane but pretty much at par with blk 70 and F16V


Problem is that even if we somegow get b70 we wil still need aim9x 120D which arent easy to get 
Than our f16 cant use harpoons or long range sow or harm etc

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> Problem is that even if we somegow get b70 we wil still need aim9x 120D which arent easy to get
> Than our f16 cant use harpoons or long range sow or harm etc


If they sell us Blk 70 they will sell rest and will update 120c to D. Two Sqd of used F16 that can fire Harpoons will be great for Navy along old Mirages and JF17. Convert F16s to Harpoons I think PAF never asked for it otherwise no issue from Yanks.



Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> After Modi's approaching the "forbidden tree" so early in the game everything's possible now...


My take is Modi will talk pak reason is from next month they will buy oil from saudia not from Iran Trump already put India on notice over S400 waiver and trade terrifs with india like they did with China turkey Canada and EU after Election good way for Modi is TAPI gas link through Afghanistan via Pak beacuse it would be tough to get waiver for india. India has no capacity to fight trade war with yanks so new Modi Govt things r not rosé beacuse Trump is ready and waiting with his Golf stick

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## Ahmet Pasha

Even if they do give us those birds or other weapons we should not get anything from em. Cuz a major war is very close. I'm talking next decade.

We don't want their hand me downs to be used as carrots on a stick against us when sh!t hits the fan.


mingle said:


> If they sell us Blk 70 they will sell rest and will update 120c to D. Two Sqd of used F16 that can fire Harpoons will be great for Navy along old Mirages and JF17. Convert F16s to Harpoons I think PAF never asked for it otherwise no issue from Yanks.
> 
> 
> My take is Modi will talk pak reason is from next month they will oil from saudia not from Iran Trump already put India on notice over S400 waiver and trade terrifs with india like they did with China turkey Canada and EU after Election good way for Modi is TAPI gas link through Afghanistan via Pak beacuse it would be tough to get waiver for india

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## mingle

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Even if they do give us those birds or other weapons we should not get anything from em. Cuz a major is very close. I'm talking next decade.
> 
> We don't want their hand me downs to be used as carrots on a stick against us when sh!t hits the fan.


True but I believe PAF will buy new F16s and will use F35 next decade or so to replace older F16s American birds should be replace with American we still need access to theior tech.Azam should be used as separate addition plus replace older blk JF17.
According to our friend @Rafi Azam is F31 with indeginous sensors along with help of EU and turkish friends.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Well then we would have to agree to disagree
Cuz 95% of PDF inc @Bilal Khan (Quwa) does not really see an American fighter being a mainstay or a frontline fighter in PAF. If an American/European fighter becomes absolutely necessary then the PAF might get 2-3 squadrons but not more.



mingle said:


> True but I believe PAF will buy new F16s and will use F35 next decade or so to replace older F16s American birds should be replace with American we still need access to theior tech.Azam should be used as separate addition plus replace older blk JF17.

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## mingle

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Well then we would have to agree to disagree
> Cuz 95% of PDF inc @Bilal Khan (Quwa) does not really see an American fighter being a mainstay or a frontline fighter in PAF. If an American/European fighter becomes absolutely necessary then the PAF might get 2-3 squadrons but not more.


True what Bilal said but two things we should not cut Americans out we need theior friendship and access in theior tech according to pentagon aviation journos F35 would be around 75 million per copy down the road. Second we should not put all eggs in same basket EU option would be expensive at this point and time.


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## TheDarkKnight

Khafee said:


> It's all about the money, what ever PAF can afford.


Given PAFs recent trend of mirages from Egypt, I guess used ones would be preferred. If thats the case is there a limit on how many PAF can get? I would really like for PAF to horde as many F16s as possible, like it did with mirages. The Iaf will be mostly flying 3-4th gen aircrafts for atleast 1.5 decades and these will serve well.
Additionally, I guess the ah1zs will be from own pockets as no chance of CSF restarting?

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## mingle

TheDarkKnight said:


> Given PAFs recent trend of mirages from Egypt, I guess used ones would be preferred. If thats the case is there a limit on how many PAF can get? I would really like for PAF to horde as many F16s as possible, like it did with mirages. The Iaf will be mostly flying 3-4th gen aircrafts for atleast 1.5 decades and these will serve well.
> Additionally, I guess the ah1zs will be from own pockets as no chance of CSF restarting?


CSF I think will resume military Aid may not beacuse since money withheld US constantly using our services so it has to be figure out one way another maybe that money will use to buy military Equipment from US.there r ample amount of F16s at EU and Jordan and US as well. But yanks r cunning they may let it be if we buy some new airframe from them beacuse used one has very little profit.

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## ziaulislam

From where i stand i doubt usa will offer things as relationship have became worse since OBL fiasco, even at peak they denied f16s several times ..relentless effort from mushi than finally paid off ..now with Afghan issue there is a small opening


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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> From where i stand i doubt usa will offer things as relationship have became worse since OBL fiasco, even at peak they denied f16s several times ..relentless effort from mushi than finally paid off ..now with Afghan issue there is a small opening


Relationship evolves with passage of time same Pak and US relationship it got highs and lows like in any relationship OBL fiasco yes its low but creating these monster they r equally involve. It's past we moved on now we heading towards endgame that is important and I hope we will get through this too.But our relationship with US since cold war then Afghan war then 9/11 So it goes up and down world is changing and US knows it so they will keep pak on good terms as well after all Pak is check on india like they think india is check on China

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## Ahmet Pasha

A very small one. Sitting inside U.S these folks are increasingly becoming venomous towards muslims. And are hell bent on seeing all major muslim nations un-teethed or pacified. 

And this not my bias/racism etc talking. AIPAC, US media, all the AIPAC suckup politicians and think tanks are driving policy towards a Greater Israel with Jerusalem as capital. All they need now is an economic crash in Trump's next term(or maybe later when they think it easy) to seamlessly crown Israel as world super-power. That is if more Jewish signs come true. Example if the heiffer matures.

I know that from the outside it does sound like a movie plot. But jews aint playing around. They RELIGIOUSLY BELIEVE in the steps they take. A lot of the policy-makers, diplomats, economists, defence personnel, think tanks, politicians etc etc often have ex-IDF ties or are Israeli graduates, sometimes they are even Israeli citizens in public/important offices. BUT THEY DO AN AWESOME JOB OF A COVER/OR CONCEALING THEIR REAL IDENTITY.

So no shiny new toys from America any time soon.

Sorry, for long rant/tangent.


ziaulislam said:


> From where i stand i doubt usa will offer things as relationship have became worse since OBL fiasco, even at peak they denied f16s several times ..relentless effort from mushi than finally paid off ..now with Afghan issue there is a small opening



@mingle bro heres another long time PDF veteran saying wise stuff.

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## Pakistani Fighter

mingle said:


> @Khafee what ur take on F16s program will we get New ones or old Jordanian ones??





Khafee said:


> It's all about the money, what ever PAF can afford.


Pak shud get atmost 20-30 F 16s but upgrade all its f 16s fleet to V standard

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## mingle

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Pak shud get atmost 20-30 F 16s but upgrade all its f 16s fleet to V standard


Yeh Baat 36 to 40 new one along used one as many as possible V upgrade will kill Rafale before it take off from France to India


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## Signalian

AH-1Z is a funding issue, no matter how much its twisted by bringing in F-16 debate.

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## Khafee

Signalian said:


> AH-1Z is a funding issue, no matter how much its twisted by bringing in F-16 debate.


True, Now lets see how much can be covered with CSF.

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## fatman17

Khafee said:


> True, Now lets see how much can be covered with CSF.


There is no more CSF


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## Beethoven

No more CSF and FMF.....if we want American weapons we must use our sovereign funds for that otherwise forget it...


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## Khafee

fatman17 said:


> There is no more CSF


What did the Centcom Commander say regarding CSF?

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> What did the Centcom Commander say regarding CSF?


They stopped previous payments since 2 yrs and still using facilities.that money can be use for more Helis and jets but again its pending issue needs to be resolve. They got Pak back T150 too. Next stop is CSF and major Arms procurement.


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## GriffinsRule

mingle said:


> They stopped previous payments since 2 yrs and still using facilities.that money can be use for more Helis and jets but again its pending issue needs to be resolve. They got Pak back T150 too. Next stop is CSF and major Arms procurement.


What's T150?


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## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> What's T150?


Naval Task Force 150 perhaps

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## TsAr

Khafee said:


> This hurdle was crossed, after the recent Centcom Commanders visit.


Agree....main hurdle is money, pay the americans $$ and they will cough out F-16's.

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> What's T150?


Navel task force Pak left due to Trump administration now we r back and commanding.

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## ali_raza

Khafee said:


> True, Now lets see how much can be covered with CSF.


according to some estimates as much as 8 bln is pending from americans in CSF and usaid which figure is before being froze so maybe there can be middle ground

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## fatman17

ali_raza said:


> according to some estimates as much as 8 bln is pending from americans in CSF and usaid which figure is before being froze so maybe there can be middle ground


Under Bush, whatever figures we submitted were approved without any audit or support documents, this changed under Obama and any claims without support were rejected by the US plus CSF allocations were gradually reduced by Obama administration. In the end Pakistan received only 50% of its claims. There is no major accrual of the rejected claims.

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## Cool_Soldier

There is a little hope about resolution of payment issue.
It looks, A1Z1 might slip from hands just like 8 F-16.
Allies are in a mood of leaving Afghanistan , so, no more help is required from Pakistan.

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## Imran Khan

Cool_Soldier said:


> There is a little hope about resolution of payment issue.
> It looks, A1Z1 might slip from hands just like 8 F-16.
> Allies are in a mood of leaving Afghanistan , so, no more help is required from Pakistan.


its good news no one miss 8 f-16 today nor we will miss 12 cobras but think a daily insult of drone attack missile attack cia bases RD KILLINGS

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## mingle

Cool_Soldier said:


> There is a little hope about resolution of payment issue.
> It looks, A1Z1 might slip from hands just like 8 F-16.
> Allies are in a mood of leaving Afghanistan , so, no more help is required from Pakistan.


Leaveing does not mean they gona abandon Pak I don't think so leaveing Pak means they out from this region. I believe we will get this money that been held back but not in cash may be Arm procurement if its 8 billion dollars let's say cut half into 4 billion we add little bit more we can get good package cash I doubt it we may get more Arms from them. PIA also looking new planes it's good time for Boeing too after Max scandal theior revenue dropped 21% finger crossed goodies will come.



Imran Khan said:


> its good news no one miss 8 f-16 today nor we will miss 12 cobras but think a daily insult of drone attack missile attack cia bases RD KILLINGS


That time is gone US will maintain relationship with Pak so Pak will too.


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## SSGcommandoPAK



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## SSGcommandoPAK



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## araz

mingle said:


> Only if we have F16s with AESA along Bkl 3 with AESA. I believe modi betting on Rafale is nothing but delusions. It's a good plane but pretty much at par with blk 70 and F16V


Dont need that fancy toy as long as link 17 works. Idont thinking a capability upgrade is on the cards. We will get new Bl.52s possibly with AMRAAM C7(Idont think they want to see mass MIs in the IAF senior air command by giving us Ds) along with 9Xs(possibly)


Ahmet Pasha said:


> Even if they do give us those birds or other weapons we should not get anything from em. Cuz a major war is very close. I'm talking next decade.
> 
> We don't want their hand me downs to be used as carrots on a stick against us when sh!t hits the fan.


The hand me downs are the best bet. I would much rather the hand me downs than the news except they wont just let you have old ones without actually getting new ones.
A



mingle said:


> True but I believe PAF will buy new F16s and will use F35 next decade or so to replace older F16s American birds should be replace with American we still need access to theior tech.Azam should be used as separate addition plus replace older blk JF17.
> According to our friend @Rafi Azam is F31 with indeginous sensors along with help of EU and turkish friends.


There will be no further fighters from US other than the ones mentioned. No F35 or anyother will be seen in PAF Liveries. The sides have been drawn I will be surprised if we get further 16s unless they allow FDIs to be used. It is beyond our reach at least for the next 5 years but used ones have their utility and PAF has the available infrastructure. I dont know what armaments were included in the last deal for 8 but 8 for nearly 800million is very expensive from Pak perspective.

A

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## SSGcommandoPAK



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## Ahmet Pasha

Man les cobras just looking at them. They look really old and worn out.


SSGcommandoPAK said:


>

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## Nashab

mingle said:


> @Khafee what ur take on F16s program will we get New ones or old Jordanian ones??


Jordan currently has fifty-five F-16 fighter jets. In 2021 Jordan will have 45 fighter jets, some of which are now being upgraded to the Viper standard by the Jordanian Royal Air Force, and the rest will be put up for sale

This talk is literally quoted by one of the most trusted Jordanian friends in Arab Defense

In 2016 a F-16 fighter squadron was supposed to be sold to Pakistan, but the deal failed because of the US refusal

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## airomerix

SSGcommandoPAK said:


>



Because they are old and worn out. Thanks to ARF at PAC Kamra for keeping them up and going. I remember seeing bunch of AH-1F's there. They were getting brand new wiring back in 2015.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Yeah dude.
Better fast track T-129


airomerix said:


> Because they are old and worn out. Thanks to ARF at PAC Kamra for keeping them up and going. I remember seeing bunch of AH-1F's there. They were getting brand new wiring back in 2015.


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## blinder

Sometimes I see a Army Corps badge on an Aviation Corps aircraft, like this:
http://www.airfighters.com/photo/18...Aeronautical-Complex-MFI-17-Mushshak/83-5120/
The aircraft has a V Army Corps badge. But the pilot wears a VII Army Aviation Squadron 'Scorpions' badge.
Although this shot was taken at Pano Aqil, its home base should be Karachi-Sharea Faisal.
Also V Corps Army is in Sindh. 
But I thought the Army Corps was a independent Corps, so does the aircraft belong to Army Aviation Corps or to V Corps?
Or is it just that the liaison aircraft sometimes do duties for the regional Army Corps and therefore also wear this badge?


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## Imran Khan

blinder said:


> Sometimes I see a Army Corps badge on an Aviation Corps aircraft, like this:
> http://www.airfighters.com/photo/18...Aeronautical-Complex-MFI-17-Mushshak/83-5120/
> The aircraft has a V Army Corps badge. But the pilot wears a VII Army Aviation Squadron 'Scorpions' badge.
> Although this shot was taken at Pano Aqil, its home base should be Karachi-Sharea Faisal.
> Also V Corps Army is in Sindh.
> But I thought the Army Corps was a independent Corps, so does the aircraft belong to Army Aviation Corps or to V Corps?
> Or is it just that the liaison aircraft sometimes do duties for the regional Army Corps and therefore also wear this badge?


Itna gehrai main jany ki zarorat kya hai wesy

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## aziqbal

Problem is resources 

For so long we have invested in fighter jets and worked on JF17 

Our rotary wing has suffered 

A long time ago we should have invested in attack helicopter programme 

Never too late though

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## Humble Analyst

fatman17 said:


> Under Bush, whatever figures we submitted were approved without any audit or support documents, this changed under Obama and any claims without support were rejected by the US plus CSF allocations were gradually reduced by Obama administration. In the end Pakistan received only 50% of its claims. There is no major accrual of the rejected claims.


Thanks to some claims by Benazir and a retired General ( May God bless their souls and forgive Benazir for treason and General for boasting)


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## Khaqan Humayun

Any news about T-129????

When are we supposed to receive from Turkey?

Still waiting for Chinese high tech drones & submarine.

4-Z10 are still on test flight.

Any news.


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## Signalian

blinder said:


> Sometimes I see a Army Corps badge on an Aviation Corps aircraft, like this:
> http://www.airfighters.com/photo/18...Aeronautical-Complex-MFI-17-Mushshak/83-5120/
> The aircraft has a V Army Corps badge. But the pilot wears a VII Army Aviation Squadron 'Scorpions' badge.
> Although this shot was taken at Pano Aqil, its home base should be Karachi-Sharea Faisal.
> Also V Corps Army is in Sindh.
> But I thought the Army Corps was a independent Corps, so does the aircraft belong to Army Aviation Corps or to V Corps?
> Or is it just that the liaison aircraft sometimes do duties for the regional Army Corps and therefore also wear this badge?


Asset under V-Corps Command.



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Man les cobras just looking at them. They look really old and worn out.





airomerix said:


> Because they are old and worn out. Thanks to ARF at PAC Kamra for keeping them up and going. I remember seeing bunch of AH-1F's there. They were getting brand new wiring back in 2015.


They still have potential for more upgrades

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-offer-big-capabilities-without-the-price-tag


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## fatman17

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Any news about T-129????
> 
> When are we supposed to receive from Turkey?
> 
> Still waiting for Chinese high tech drones & submarine.
> 
> 4-Z10 are still on test flight.
> 
> Any news.


Z10s returned to China


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## Signalian

Next requirement for PAA is to employ an EW UAV to jam enemy communications and help over come enemy mobile SAM and other AD systems.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Does PAC or Rebuild factory have capabilities to come with an indigenous upgrade that brings Ah1s to modern standards or beyond like what US has done with F16/16V block 60/70 etc.

Turkey does things like that too. Indigenously upgrade weapons bought from Al-Amerikiyoona


Signalian said:


> Asset under V-Corps Command.
> 
> 
> 
> They still have potential for more upgrades
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-offer-big-capabilities-without-the-price-tag





fatman17 said:


> Z10s returned to China


----------



## GriffinsRule

From the latest Flight International May 7-15, 2019 issue.

Approval key to T129 export plan Turkish Aerospace is waiting on the outcome of an export licence application linked to a planned sale of 30 T129 attack helicopters to Pakistan, with approvals required for their US-sourced LHTEC CTS800 engines. “As soon as a licence is approved, which is in process right now, we will deliver immediately to Pakistan,” a Turkish official told FlightGlobal at the IDEF exhibition in Istanbul.
The airframer says it has delivered 45 examples of the T129 – a locally produced development of the Leonardo Helicopters AW129 – to the Turkish armed forces, from a firm order for 83.

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## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> From the latest Flight International May 7-15, 2019 issue.
> 
> Approval key to T129 export plan Turkish Aerospace is waiting on the outcome of an export licence application linked to a planned sale of 30 T129 attack helicopters to Pakistan, with approvals required for their US-sourced LHTEC CTS800 engines. “As soon as a licence is approved, which is in process right now, we will deliver immediately to Pakistan,” a Turkish official told FlightGlobal at the IDEF exhibition in Istanbul.
> The airframer says it has delivered 45 examples of the T129 – a locally produced development of the Leonardo Helicopters AW129 – to the Turkish armed forces, from a firm order for 83.


Sounds difficult

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## ghazi52



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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> Sounds difficult



Yes, that's what I was thinking !!

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## mingle

ghazi52 said:


>


Looks like Gross hopper to me


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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Sounds difficult


Seems usa knows stick alone is enough given our IMF problem

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## nomi007

Any news about AH-1Z delivery


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> Any news about AH-1Z delivery


No delivery

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## Areesh

nomi007 said:


> Any news about AH-1Z delivery



Not coming

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## Readerdefence

Hi so at the moment Z10 is the best option for Pakistan without any strings and approvals from any third country in between this deal and offcourse can have latest upgrades as when they are available for this helicopter as Chinese are evolving it month by month time 
Thank you

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## fatman17

Readerdefence said:


> Hi so at the moment Z10 is the best option for Pakistan without any strings and approvals from any third country in between this deal and offcourse can have latest upgrades as when they are available for this helicopter as Chinese are evolving it month by month time
> Thank you


Doesn't meet Pakistan army aviation criteria


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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Doesn't meet Pakistan army aviation criteria


So whats next?

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## khanasifm

US part of the deal providing 20 airworthy and 20 for spares ah-1 s in 2010ish, Jordanian plus some provided by US made 20 airworthy and rest spares were actually ah-1 with all wiring cut but still airworthy 

I think paa along with pac did pilot to develop wiring and bring additional airworthy to replace attrition or any airframe which needed replacement current strength should be 30 plus in 3 sqn and some spares as well since total airframe equal 60 minus attrition

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## nomi007

ziaulislam said:


> So whats next?


Stop Nato Supply


----------



## ziaulislam

nomi007 said:


> Stop Nato Supply


Lol IMF..look at your state of economy and LEVISH style Pakistani elite have..even rich people in western countries cant have such lifestyle

Possibly the t129 will be blocked too so is turkish f35
Turkey over estimated its importance

USA doesnt care about NATO and turkey baby sitting NATO isnt needed as USSR is no more and russia is farcry of its previous glory..so nobody gives a shit about Turkey importance to NATO

۔.
PAC should find a way to keept those old cobras flying and see if they have anything in china

Frankly i would be more concerned about PAF than gunships

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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> So whats next?


Mi35, upgrades of AH1F by Turkey, hope for NOC by US for T129, but unfortunately US - Turkey relationship has soured over S400 purchase. Alternatively seek the T129 Mangusta from Italy.

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> Mi35, upgrades of AH1F by Turkey, hope for NOC by US for T129, but unfortunately US - Turkey relationship has soured over S400 purchase. Alternatively seek the T129 Mangusta from Italy.


Mangusta is old
Dont worry Some latest advance engines alternatives are availables


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> Mangusta is old
> Dont worry Some latest advance engines alternatives are availables


Good then no worries!


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Pakistan army Aviation Viper in Storage 

Scramble Magazine (April Edition)

Pic Credit.. Hadeer

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## fatman17

Sulman Badshah said:


> Pakistan army Aviation Viper in Storage
> 
> Scramble Magazine (April Edition)
> 
> Pic Credit.. Hadeer
> 
> 
> View attachment 559623


Just like the F16s. Bye bye birdie


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## CHI RULES

India has got first Apache and many are coming along with Hell fire Missiles, further T90 MBTS i.e 300+ are on the way, fighter jets coming soon along with up gradation of existing Jets, IN already many times stronger and Moodi expected to win elections. Now what it tells and what Pak should do is evident, though financially tight yet go for minimal solutions i.e induction of LR-SAM on limited scale, increase in medium/short range SAMs, induction and up gradation of existing MBTs. Induction of attack helicopter with capable Air to Ground and Air to Air capabilities. As in near future wars the one on one confrontation between attack helis is not deniable along with drones.

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## SSGcommandoPAK




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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/CAIC-Z-10-Fierce-Thunderbolt/1820


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## GriffinsRule

SSGcommandoPAK said:


>


These have no chance against an Apache or even semi-modern AD

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## TsAr

GriffinsRule said:


> These have no chance against an Apache or even semi-modern AD


Why do you think they will be used against apache's


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## GriffinsRule

TsAr said:


> Why do you think they will be used against apache's


They will be used in the front lines against Indian armor and will face Apaches that would be providing support to their armored formations. Regardless, the Hind is a handicapped platform

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## Fieldmarshal

GriffinsRule said:


> They will be used in the front lines against Indian armor and will face Apaches that would be providing support to their armored formations. Regardless, the Hind is a handicapped platform


They r being acquired for special opps forces primarily.
The Indian armour will taken care of by the cobras n t 129 when they become available.
They r deployed accordingly.


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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Mil-Mi-35M-Hind/1818

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## fatman17

Air Platforms

Images suggest Z-20 helicopter has entered service with China’s PLAGF

Andrew Tate, London - Jane's Defence Weekly

16 May 2019

Follow

RSS


A Chinese Z-20 helicopter bearing the number LH953205: a serial number format indicating that this rotorcraft type has likely entered service with the PLA Army Aviation. Source: Via haohanfw.com

Production versions of the Harbin Z-20 helicopter appear to have entered service with the aviation units of China’s People’s Liberation Army Ground Force (PLAGF), as evidenced by photographs published on Chinese online forums.

Although images of the Z-20 had previously emerged online, they had shown the platforms with either no serial numbers or only three-digit numbers, indicating that these were development or pre-production aircraft. The latest photographs, however, show two helicopters featuring serial numbers LH953201 and LH953205: the serial number format for aircraft in service with PLA Army Aviation.

The Z-20 is a medium utility helicopter in the 10-ton class. There have been many comments that the design is derived from the Sikorsky S-70C/Black Hawk, in part due to similarities in appearance but also because China bought 24 S-70C helicopters from the US in 1986: three years before the Tiananmen Square-related arms embargo was imposed.

There are, however, notable differences between the US and Chinese helicopters, at least in the use of a five-bladed main rotor in the Z-20 rather than a four-bladed one in the S-70. The Z-20 is thought to be powered by two WZ-10 turboshaft engines, each developing 1,600 kW, which would mean an increase of about 200 kW over that provided by the General Electric T700-701A turbines used in the exported S-70Cs.

Notwithstanding their age – and China’s inability to acquire spares from the US – the S-70C helicopters have been an important aircraft for the PLAGF because of their ability to operate at high altitudes. This is an important requirement for transporting and supporting troops along the Sino-Indian border and operating on the high plateaus in Tibet and Xinjiang.

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## Sunny4pak

Sir @fatman17 It looks pretty identical to Black Hawk.
Thanks for sharing

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## Ahmet Pasha

Lo bhai ab sasta blackhawk mil jaye ga hame.


fatman17 said:


> Air Platforms
> 
> Images suggest Z-20 helicopter has entered service with China’s PLAGF
> 
> Andrew Tate, London - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 16 May 2019
> 
> Follow
> 
> RSS
> 
> 
> A Chinese Z-20 helicopter bearing the number LH953205: a serial number format indicating that this rotorcraft type has likely entered service with the PLA Army Aviation. Source: Via haohanfw.com
> 
> Production versions of the Harbin Z-20 helicopter appear to have entered service with the aviation units of China’s People’s Liberation Army Ground Force (PLAGF), as evidenced by photographs published on Chinese online forums.
> 
> Although images of the Z-20 had previously emerged online, they had shown the platforms with either no serial numbers or only three-digit numbers, indicating that these were development or pre-production aircraft. The latest photographs, however, show two helicopters featuring serial numbers LH953201 and LH953205: the serial number format for aircraft in service with PLA Army Aviation.
> 
> The Z-20 is a medium utility helicopter in the 10-ton class. There have been many comments that the design is derived from the Sikorsky S-70C/Black Hawk, in part due to similarities in appearance but also because China bought 24 S-70C helicopters from the US in 1986: three years before the Tiananmen Square-related arms embargo was imposed.
> 
> There are, however, notable differences between the US and Chinese helicopters, at least in the use of a five-bladed main rotor in the Z-20 rather than a four-bladed one in the S-70. The Z-20 is thought to be powered by two WZ-10 turboshaft engines, each developing 1,600 kW, which would mean an increase of about 200 kW over that provided by the General Electric T700-701A turbines used in the exported S-70Cs.
> 
> Notwithstanding their age – and China’s inability to acquire spares from the US – the S-70C helicopters have been an important aircraft for the PLAGF because of their ability to operate at high altitudes. This is an important requirement for transporting and supporting troops along the Sino-Indian border and operating on the high plateaus in Tibet and Xinjiang.
> View attachment 560488

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## Imran Khan

Sunny4pak said:


> Sir @fatman17 It looks pretty identical to Black Hawk.
> Thanks for sharing


USA sale s-70 to china and here is result

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## Sunny4pak

Imran Khan said:


> USA sale s-70 to china and here is result



Je Sir Je, Waisy Bhi China Copy mein Mashhoor hai..

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## fatman17

A Pak Army Aviation delegation were given a demo of T129’s Avci helmet slewing the ATAK’s cannon last Wednesday. According to Turkish Aerospace the deal for the LHTec 800 engines has still not been signed. But they expect it to ‘just a matter of time’ i was told. https://t.co/avzlJe70LD

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> A Pak Army Aviation delegation were given a demo of T129’s Avci helmet slewing the ATAK’s cannon last Wednesday. According to Turkish Aerospace the deal for the LHTec 800 engines has still not been signed. But they expect it to ‘just a matter of time’ i was told. https://t.co/avzlJe70LD
> View attachment 560972


i think Pakistan find an alternative european engine for T-129
*Safran Ardiden &
Safran Aneto
*
will be better options

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## Cool_Soldier

Hopes are alive for T-129 for PAA

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

ziaulislam said:


> Lol IMF..look at your state of economy and LEVISH style Pakistani elite have..even rich people in western countries cant have such lifestyle
> 
> Possibly the t129 will be blocked too so is turkish f35
> Turkey over estimated its importance
> 
> USA doesnt care about NATO and turkey baby sitting NATO isnt needed as USSR is no more and russia is farcry of its previous glory..so nobody gives a shit about Turkey importance to NATO
> 
> ۔.
> PAC should find a way to keept those old cobras flying and see if they have anything in china
> 
> Frankly i would be more concerned about PAF than gunships


Turkey is developing the indigenous chopper engine at a fast track for the sanction won’t affect Pak alone...

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## Sunny4pak

fatman17 said:


> A Pak Army Aviation delegation were given a demo of T129’s Avci helmet slewing the ATAK’s cannon last Wednesday. According to Turkish Aerospace the deal for the LHTec 800 engines has still not been signed. But they expect it to ‘just a matter of time’ i was told. https://t.co/avzlJe70LD
> View attachment 560972


Sir considering current tensions between US & Turkey chances of the JV (Rolls Royce & Honeywell) Engine for T129 seems highly doubtful. What's your thoughts in this context?

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## fatman17

Sunny4pak said:


> Sir considering current tensions between US & Turkey chances of the JV (Rolls Royce & Honeywell) Engine for T129 seems highly doubtful. What's your thoughts in this context?


I agree with you. Have to look for alternatives.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> I agree with you. Have to look for alternatives.


Having said that US has not cancelled the JV for the engine to turkey as yet.

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## fatman17

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Turkey is developing the indigenous chopper engine at a fast track for the sanction won’t affect Pak alone...


Good to know

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Turkey is developing the indigenous chopper engine at a fast track for the sanction won’t affect Pak alone...


Still that is not feasible option for PAA.

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## SSGcommandoPAK



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## Basel

fatman17 said:


> I agree with you. Have to look for alternatives.



Can Ukraine or Russia have anything to offer?


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## ZAC1

fatman17 said:


> A Pak Army Aviation delegation were given a demo of T129’s Avci helmet slewing the ATAK’s cannon last Wednesday. According to Turkish Aerospace the deal for the LHTec 800 engines has still not been signed. But they expect it to ‘just a matter of time’ i was told. https://t.co/avzlJe70LD
> View attachment 560972


What about the airframes are they ready...?


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## khanasifm

If engine change is option then paa may want to revisit the test again to confirm performance ?? It’s not simply a change ??


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## Flight of falcon

Pakistani vipers will be released. Things between Pakistan and USA are looking up. It is a matter of meeting between Imran and Trump. Trump is on record to say he is looking forward to meet Imran. It’s just a matter of time.

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## mingle

Flight of falcon said:


> Pakistani vipers will be released. Things between Pakistan and USA are looking up. It is a matter of meeting between Imran and Trump. Trump is on record to say he is looking forward to meet Imran. It’s just a matter of time.


According to our friend @Khafee US offering more vipers 12 more let's see how it pans out but I believe Ik visit will yeild a comprehensive package of F16 and cobras along old and new ones.

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## Pakistani Fighter

mingle said:


> According to our friend @Khafee US offering more vipers 12 more let's see how it pans out but I believe Ik visit will yeild a comprehensive package of F16 and cobras along old and new ones.


Hope all F 16s are upgraded to V standard and C5s replaces with Ds

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## GriffinsRule

mingle said:


> According to our friend @Khafee US offering more vipers 12 more let's see how it pans out but I believe Ik visit will yeild a comprehensive package of F16 and cobras along old and new ones.


Dont hold out your breath imo. They might ask for concessions we are unable or unwilling to give due to our national interest ... such as say, bases for attacking Iran etc. Who knows. And just meeting Trump doesnt mean issues will be resolved or Indian inroads into the White House and Congress will be diminished.
Best to keep our expectations low.

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## Pakistani Fighter

GriffinsRule said:


> Dont hold out your breath imo. They might ask for concessions we are unable or unwilling to give due to our national interest ... such as say, bases for attacking Iran etc. Who knows. And just meeting Trump doesnt mean issues will be resolved or Indian inroads into the White House and Congress will be diminished.
> Best to keep our expectations low.


They are already in Jacobabad


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## GriffinsRule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> They are already in Jacobabad


Not in the way I mean. A few contractors to keep tabs on F-16s is not the same thing

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> Dont hold out your breath imo. They might ask for concessions we are unable or unwilling to give due to our national interest ... such as say, bases for attacking Iran etc. Who knows. And just meeting Trump doesnt mean issues will be resolved or Indian inroads into the White House and Congress will be diminished.
> Best to keep our expectations low.


Yaar never feel urself small they don't need our bases to hit Iran they sitting in sea Afghanistan, rest of mideast why need us. They need our help to deal with Taibans that we doing already. Nothing to worry we will get all as I Said.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Hope all F 16s are upgraded to V standard and C5s replaces with Ds


There is alot of surplus F16s and C130 out there I hope we can hand some and upgrade them to V as well. F16s V along Blk 70s r enough to knock out Rafale.

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## Humble Analyst

GriffinsRule said:


> They will be used in the front lines against Indian armor and will face Apaches that would be providing support to their armored formations. Regardless, the Hind is a handicapped platform





mingle said:


> Yaar never feel urself small they don't need our bases to hit Iran they sitting in sea Afghanistan, rest of mideast why need us. They need our help to deal with Taibans that we doing already. Nothing to worry we will get all as I Said.
> 
> 
> There is alot of surplus F16s and C130 out there I hope we can hand some and upgrade them to V as well. F16s V along Blk 70s r enough to knock out Rafale.


Block 70s or F 21 are being offered to India how will they offer to Pk? See his interviews with media about Pak, your optimism will evaporate


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## fatman17

ZAC1 said:


> What about the airframes are they ready...?


Probably not


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## fatman17

Flight of falcon said:


> Pakistani vipers will be released. Things between Pakistan and USA are looking up. It is a matter of meeting between Imran and Trump. Trump is on record to say he is looking forward to meet Imran. It’s just a matter of time.


Trump cannot be trusted

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## mingle

Humble Analyst said:


> Block 70s or F 21 are being offered to India how will they offer to Pk? See his interviews with media about Pak, your optimism will evaporate


If india will buy F21 thing which is blk 70 with cosmetics let's see US is about to start trade war with India.


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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> According to our friend @Khafee US offering more vipers 12 more let's see how it pans out but I believe Ik visit will yeild a comprehensive package of F16 and cobras along old and new ones.


Depends if Pakistan delivers a peace deal and than is given a key role to keep that peace deal..a deak which will keep everyone happy 
Pakistan own assessment is that this will nit happen..
So what incentive does usa has to make india angry?nothing ...
Getting out of FATF would be a big enough thing


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## Flight of falcon

I doubt USA will offer any additional hardware. Right now our thrust is to get outstanding Coalition support fund and to get blocked hardware released. This will be a good start for Americans to crawl back into the equation. After Lindsey Graham’s visit this seems like a real possibility. 
I am told that IK and army is not in any hurry to make any new deal with the Americans. We don’t want them as enemies but certainly do not want to make them friends again either.
For us to even dream of new F16s we will have to deliver a comprehensive solution to Afghan problem which will not be in our long term strategic interest.

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## Thorough Pro

Best to keep zero expectations, it took us quite some time to get out of the US choke hold. We are doing fine, things a a bit tough but will get better, no need to embrace the false accusation, lies, humiliation and drone attacks once again. We shouldn't be eager to meet trump, he is a unbalanced and unhinged and totally not trustworthy, actually no American is trustworthy anymore, they are focused on their own interests at others cost. 




GriffinsRule said:


> Dont hold out your breath imo. They might ask for concessions we are unable or unwilling to give due to our national interest ... such as say, bases for attacking Iran etc. Who knows. And just meeting Trump doesnt mean issues will be resolved or Indian inroads into the White House and Congress will be diminished.
> Best to keep our expectations low.


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## araz

Thorough Pro said:


> Best to keep zero expectations, it took us quite some time to get out of the US choke hold. We are doing fine, things a a bit tough but will get better, no need to embrace the false accusation, lies, humiliation and drone attacks once again. We shouldn't be eager to meet trump, he is a unbalanced and unhinged and totally not trustworthy, actually no American is trustworthy anymore, they are focused on their own interests at others cost.


Is that not what any sovereign nation giving you funds expects? It is said that Zia was the only President who had the guts to ask at any US request," what's in it for us?" Most others have simply been yes men looking after their personal interests rather than national interests. Even though Mushy negotiated well but still gave in too quickly and too much.
A

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## GriffinsRule

araz said:


> Is that not what any sovereign nation giving you funds expects? It is said that Zia was the only President who had the guts to ask at any US request," what's in it for us?" Most others have simply been yes men looking after their personal interests rather than national interests. Even though Mushy negotiated well but still gave in too quickly and too much.
> A


Times were different then too. Americans were scared of the Soviets while in case of 2000s, they were out for blood. Hence its not like Musharaf had much bargaining space.

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## araz

GriffinsRule said:


> Times were different then too. Americans were scared of the Soviets while in case of 2000s, they were out for blood. Hence its not like Musharaf had much bargaining space.


I agree. I cant help but feel that if Musharraf had agreed in principal to help the US via public statements in US but in private bargained harder we might have been able to achieve more. Time was of essence even to the US and any delay could have caused serious logistical issues. There was no alternate route available for supplies and the cost escalations would soon have brought the US back on the negotiating table. I cant help but wonder Mushy collapsed a bit too soon however I understand the risks involved in such endeavours and perhaps Musharraf did not want to take the risk. All along I have felt that Pakistan at critical junctures has fallen flat into US Lap without showing any resistance. I suspect he did not have a parlianment to consult so did not have much of an excuse but rightly or wrongly I feel US even then would have given in if we had stayed our ground. For instance foreign loans could have been wiped off(ala Egypt)instead of being delayed and the 16s might have come immediately inspite of Bush's denial. This is my opinion but I understand it might have been a bit more "intense" in the negotiating rooms.
A

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## mingle

Flight of falcon said:


> I doubt USA will offer any additional hardware. Right now our thrust is to get outstanding Coalition support fund and to get blocked hardware released. This will be a good start for Americans to crawl back into the equation. After Lindsey Graham’s visit this seems like a real possibility.
> I am told that IK and army is not in any hurry to make any new deal with the Americans. We don’t want them as enemies but certainly do not want to make them friends again either.
> For us to even dream of new F16s we will have to deliver a comprehensive solution to Afghan problem which will not be in our long term strategic interest.


Zal was in islamabad today he sound very happy and satisfied I feel things going on right track Zal also said US and Pak relations are getting stronger day by day though its political statement but it matters that so far Americans r satisfied with progress. We will get what we want from US it's just matter of time nothing more



araz said:


> I agree. I cant help but feel that if Musharraf had agreed in principal to help the US via public statements in US but in private bargained harder we might have been able to achieve more. Time was of essence even to the US and any delay could have caused serious logistical issues. There was no alternate route available for supplies and the cost escalations would soon have brought the US back on the negotiating table. I cant help but wonder Mushy collapsed a bit too soon however I understand the risks involved in such endeavours and perhaps Musharraf did not want to take the risk. All along I have felt that Pakistan at critical junctures has fallen flat into US Lap without showing any resistance. I suspect he did not have a parlianment to consult so did not have much of an excuse but rightly or wrongly I feel US even then would have given in if we had stayed our ground. For instance foreign loans could have been wiped off(ala Egypt)instead of being delayed and the 16s might have come immediately inspite of Bush's denial. This is my opinion but I understand it might have been a bit more "intense" in the negotiating rooms.
> A


US sees eygpt in Israeli context and also insurance policy for Israel its sizeable country and modern military. You can't compare Pak and eygpt


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## Army research

GriffinsRule said:


> Dont hold out your breath imo. They might ask for concessions we are unable or unwilling to give due to our national interest ... such as say, bases for attacking Iran etc. Who knows. And just meeting Trump doesnt mean issues will be resolved or Indian inroads into the White House and Congress will be diminished.
> Best to keep our expectations low.





araz said:


> I agree. I cant help but feel that if Musharraf had agreed in principal to help the US via public statements in US but in private bargained harder we might have been able to achieve more. Time was of essence even to the US and any delay could have caused serious logistical issues. There was no alternate route available for supplies and the cost escalations would soon have brought the US back on the negotiating table. I cant help but wonder Mushy collapsed a bit too soon however I understand the risks involved in such endeavours and perhaps Musharraf did not want to take the risk. All along I have felt that Pakistan at critical junctures has fallen flat into US Lap without showing any resistance. I suspect he did not have a parlianment to consult so did not have much of an excuse but rightly or wrongly I feel US even then would have given in if we had stayed our ground. For instance foreign loans could have been wiped off(ala Egypt)instead of being delayed and the 16s might have come immediately inspite of Bush's denial. This is my opinion but I understand it might have been a bit more "intense" in the negotiating rooms.
> A


According to someone who was in the military back then musharaff was given 2 options 
1) let the supply through 
2) we will bomb you back to the stone ages ( the exact words were said indirectly or directly)


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## Khafee

mingle said:


> According to our friend @Khafee US offering more vipers 12 more let's see how it pans out but I believe Ik visit will yeild a comprehensive package of F16 and cobras along old and new ones.


Or maybe nothing.



araz said:


> I agree. I cant help but feel that if Musharraf had agreed in principal to help the US via public statements in US but in private bargained harder we might have been able to achieve more. Time was of essence even to the US and any delay could have caused serious logistical issues. There was no alternate route available for supplies and the cost escalations would soon have brought the US back on the negotiating table. I cant help but wonder Mushy collapsed a bit too soon however I understand the risks involved in such endeavours and perhaps Musharraf did not want to take the risk. All along I have felt that Pakistan at critical junctures has fallen flat into US Lap without showing any resistance. I suspect he did not have a parlianment to consult so did not have much of an excuse but rightly or wrongly I feel US even then would have given in if we had stayed our ground. For instance foreign loans could have been wiped off(ala Egypt)instead of being delayed and the 16s might have come immediately inspite of Bush's denial. This is my opinion but I understand it might have been a bit more "intense" in the negotiating rooms.
> A


Jo Allah kay bajaie botal ka sahara layta hai, ossay kiya umeed rakhtay hain?

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> Or maybe nothing.
> 
> 
> Jo Allah kay bajaie botal ka sahara layta hai, ossay kiya umeed rakhtay hain?


Dil nahi tortay buri baat

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## ali_raza

Khafee said:


> Or maybe nothing.
> 
> 
> Jo Allah kay bajaie botal ka sahara layta hai, ossay kiya umeed rakhtay hain?


that too american jack daniels lol

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## Humble Analyst

mingle said:


> Zal was in islamabad today he sound very happy and satisfied I feel things going on right track Zal also said US and Pak relations are getting stronger day by day though its political statement but it matters that so far Americans r satisfied with progress. We will get what we want from US it's just matter of time nothing more
> 
> 
> US sees eygpt in Israeli context and also insurance policy for Israel its sizeable country and modern military. You can't compare Pak and eygpt


Plus Egypt has Suez Canal too

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## mingle

ali_raza said:


> that too american jack daniels lol


Jack Danieliis not expensive mostly they give johnnie walker Blue label that's his top brand around 300 to 400$ a bottle to each other as gift Govt levels.


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## ali_raza

mingle said:


> Jack Danieliis not expensive mostly they give johnnie walker Blue label that's his top brand around 300 to 400$ a bottle to each other as gift Govt levels.


blue label is 86 ryal bigger bottle here
but m sure mushi liked tennessee whiskey 
there is high end jd,s also


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## nomi007

Jordanian are selling *6 Little Bird Helicopters MD530FF6 Little Bird Helicopters MD530FF*
i think PAA try to get these helos


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## CHI RULES

nomi007 said:


> Jordanian are selling *6 Little Bird Helicopters MD530FF6 Little Bird Helicopters MD530FF*
> i think PAA try to get these helos



Sir Pakistan already have Eurocopter Fennec for armed reconnaissance and scouting roles which are brand new, what new capacity these little bird can bring.



Khafee said:


> Or maybe nothing.
> 
> 
> Jo Allah kay bajaie botal ka sahara layta hai, ossay kiya umeed rakhtay hain?



Sir Allah is better judge than human beings let him judge what Musharraf did, as there are some good things in his bag also.

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## Thorough Pro

That an outcome of our weak and fragmented political system. No one realizes that a weak government that is not fully supported by the whole nation will always be weak in negotiations. Politics must stop once the elections are over and give the new government its full tenure to focus on the core issues without the bitchy politics our politicians engage in. And this is true for all politicians and political parties.





araz said:


> Is that not what any sovereign nation giving you funds expects? It is said that Zia was the only President who had the guts to ask at any US request," what's in it for us?" Most others have simply been yes men looking after their personal interests rather than national interests. Even though Mushy negotiated well but still gave in too quickly and too much.
> A

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## ghazi52

Happy Pakistan Day

2 Army Mi-8 helicopters in formation, Rawalpindi, 23 March 1976

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## fatman17

9 of the 12 AH1Z Super Cobras are stored in Arizona, the remaining 3 are stored at a undisclosed location. Source : AFM

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## Humble Analyst

ali_raza said:


> blue label is 86 ryal bigger bottle here
> but m sure mushi liked tennessee whiskey
> there is high end jd,s also


Thanks so this helps fly the helos?



fatman17 said:


> 9 of the 12 AH1Z Super Cobras are stored in Arizona, the remaining 3 are stored at a undisclosed location. Source : AFM


Looks like they will stay there unless a buyer is found and probably the warehouse charges be for Pak account


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## Thorough Pro

They may as well get eaten by termites or burn down to ground, who cares, the will NEVER come to Pakistan. That chapter is closed.




fatman17 said:


> 9 of the 12 AH1Z Super Cobras are stored in Arizona, the remaining 3 are stored at a undisclosed location. Source : AFM

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## Flight of falcon

Thorough Pro said:


> They may as well get eaten by termites or burn down to ground, who cares, the will NEVER come to Pakistan. That chapter is closed.


They will come home have faith and be patient .


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## Thorough Pro

Accepting them would be the worst thing by Pakistan. We should tell them shove them where their joy lives 





Flight of falcon said:


> They will come home have faith and be patient .


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## mingle

Thorough Pro said:


> Accepting them would be the worst thing by Pakistan. We should tell them shove them where their joy lives


We paid for them plus we need engines for T129 take it simple


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## Thorough Pro

I believe we did not pay. If we did, then we deserved that for trusting these snakes again after getting wheat for f-16 payments. We should get corn this time or maybe condoms to put on our dumb heads 



mingle said:


> We paid for them plus we need engines for T129 take it simple


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## nomi007

just block nato supply than see


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## aziqbal

Zulus are not coming its confirmed?

what a bunch of bloody chor the Americans are


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## TsAr

aziqbal said:


> Zulus are not coming its confirmed?
> 
> what a bunch of bloody chor the Americans are


Are you asking or breaking the news to us?

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## aziqbal

TsAr said:


> Are you asking or breaking the news to us?



In the English language a question marks usually means a question has been asked


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## TsAr

aziqbal said:


> In the English language a question marks usually means a question has been asked


You asked a question and then made a statement that made it confusing. And thank you for improving my English I am highly obliged by your kind gesture.

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## Armchair

insanity is to keep doing the same thing again and again despite it not working. Yet, even after the Pressler F-16 and wheat experience (shitty wheat too - I had the experience of eating it), you are continuing down the same road. 

PAF PAA, etc all of Pakistan is now again hanging on when the Cobras will land... oh when... when will our master have some mercy on us... please please, here is the rent on the storage space... 

Meanwhile, please continue to use Pakistan as your supply line (for free for so long) and now for peanuts. We are monkey, we love peanuts, please give us some.

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Bell-412EP/1879

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Bell-412EP/1888

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## Sunny4pak

*Pakistan Army Aviation Helicopters Fleet 2019*

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## nomi007



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## Blacklight

nomi007 said:


>


Is this Pakistani Army?

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## HAIDER

Blacklight said:


> Is this Pakistani Army?


Seems some Far Eastern country.

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## Blacklight

HAIDER said:


> Seems some Far Eastern country.


It did not look like PA, but rather Thailand, hence my question.

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## mingle

Blacklight said:


> It did not look like PA, but rather Thailand, hence my question.


I feel Army bought these used Fennecs for agumant existing fleet

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## Bossman

mingle said:


> I feel Army bought these used Fennecs for agumant existing fleet


How did you feel it?

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## Keysersoze

nomi007 said:


>


I do love the Fennec. First helicopter I ever flew in.


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## Shabi1

mingle said:


> I feel Army bought these used Fennecs for agumant existing fleet


Armed Fennecs were bought to replace the Bell 206 scouts, used for spotting targets for AH-1 Cobras. Fennecs/Equirels have been really effective in high altitude environment.

A very welcome change from the Bell 206s.








Blacklight said:


> It did not look like PA, but rather Thailand, hence my question.



Optical turret is missing for armed variant so likely not Pakistan in quoted picture.

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## hassan1



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## nomi007

RJAF MD Helicopters MD 530 light helicopters will be good for PAA operations in Baluchistan if they consider them

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## TOPGUN

nomi007 said:


> RJAF MD Helicopters MD 530 light helicopters will be good for PAA operations in Baluchistan if they consider them
> View attachment 568646



What will they bring which we don't have already ?

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## niaz

Having too many different types ( IMHO we already have too many different kinds of helos) is onerous because of costs involved in training pilots & maintenance staff and the stocking of spare parts.

Pakistan Armed services already operate Bell 206 Jet Ranger, Bell UH-1 Huey, Bell 412, Bell AH-1 Cobra, SA330 Puma, SA315 Lama, SA316 Alouette3, Augusta AW139, AS550 Fennec, AS350 Ecureil, MI-35, M1-8/17, MI-14( Pak Navy), Z-9, Sea King with Schweizer 330c & Enstrom 280 FX for training. Additionally, we have Turkish T-129 on order.

This makes 18 different types. Training, maintenance & spare parts inventory must be nightmarish. Ideally, there should be no more than 5 or 6 different types, such as gunships, for heavy lift, for high altitude ops, for scouting & liaison, for S& R/ Medi-evac / other medium lift duties, and for training. Add a couple of specialized for maritime roles.

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## nomi007

TOPGUN said:


> What will they bring which we don't have already ?








good for urban warfares

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## TOPGUN

nomi007 said:


> good for urban warfares



True, but I doubt that PA will go for it !!

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## Tamiyah

TOPGUN said:


> True, but I doubt that PA will go for it !!


Yeah Army aviation corps already have ATAK and Ah-1Z on order, It wont go for another heli.

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## nomi007

TOPGUN said:


> True, but I doubt that PA will go for it !!


whats about Jordanian cn-235 & 295 for Pakistan scenario are they good or not?

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## TOPGUN

nomi007 said:


> whats about Jordanian cn-235 & 295 for Pakistan scenario are they good or not?



Yes I believe they have a few gunships I think they would be good use against terrorist hideouts.

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## Dreamer.

niaz said:


> Having too many different types ( IMHO we already have too many different kinds of helos) is onerous because of costs involved in training pilots & maintenance staff and the stocking of spare parts.
> 
> Pakistan Armed services already operate Bell 206 Jet Ranger, Bell UH-1 Huey, Bell 412, Bell AH-1 Cobra, SA330 Puma, SA315 Lama, SA316 Alouette3, Augusta AW139, AS550 Fennec, AS350 Ecureil, MI-35, M1-8/17, MI-14( Pak Navy), Z-9, Sea King with Schweizer 330c & Enstrom 280 FX for training. Additionally, we have Turkish T-129 on order.
> 
> This makes 18 different types. Training, maintenance & spare parts inventory must be nightmarish. Ideally, there should be no more than 5 or 6 different types, such as gunships, for heavy lift, for high altitude ops, for scouting & liaison, for S& R/ Medi-evac / other medium lift duties, and for training. Add a couple of specialized for maritime roles.


Come on, isn't that a very outdated list? You should know better than that.

Firstly the Fennec and Ecureuil are practically the same aircraft, two version of the same helicopter.

Navy operates Mi14?? I don't think so. And I think army has already retired any UH-1, bell 206, etc. and IIRC the lamas replaced by the Ecureuil/Fennec. The Alouettes also if not already retired are on the way out, being replaced by the AW139. So you can probably remove 5 helicopters from that list. Even the Puma's will not last very long.


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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## hassan1



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## RangeMaster

Zulus coming home? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1153388505697046540

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## blinder

Nope, these are just two (786-064 and 786-066) of the three that were not yet stored at 309th AMARG. They are likely on their way to Tucson Arizona for storage.

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## Sulman Badshah

One of the AH-1Z Viper helicopters that made a stop in Amarillo on Jul. 19, 2019. Note the partly covered Pakistan Army markings. (All images: Rodney Bastow)

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1153392547827507206


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## aziqbal

we will probably receive the refund via wheat aid


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## Flight of falcon

Zulus will be released shortly.

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## Bossman

aziqbal said:


> we will probably receive the refund via wheat aid


Pakistan is an exporter of wheat so you are living in ancient times.



Flight of falcon said:


> Zulus will be released shortly.



A few weeks after the Apaches land in India.

The Turkish choppers are also coming. Just look at the construction activity in Multan.

There is a big shit in India if the Apaches are with the Airforce or the Army. I hope they end up with the Airforce. In that case they will be totally useless. India does not have a mature Army Aviation Corp. Let’s wait and see. If we get them, Pak army will operationalize the Zulus in 6 months while IAF will still be building landing pads to handle the weight of the Apaches.

I think the Americans understand us now. With the big capital account surplus (a post 2ww measure and in my opinion irrelevant) India has the money to buy American stuff. The US will try to sell military stuff to them for their own benefit as they do to the Arabs. But deep down the US leadership knows that they need Pakistan and it goes beyond Afghanistan. They know Indians are a bunch of losers. Eisenhower knew that, Nixon knew that, Reagan knew that and Trump is learning that. As they say we are a hard country.

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## GriffinsRule

Full size picture.

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## Humble Analyst

TOPGUN said:


> True, but I doubt that PA will go for it !!


This can be good convoy protection and scout help provided can fly in Baluchistan and other areas with similar issues


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## Talon

aziqbal said:


> we will probably receive the refund via wheat aid


last time it was Chanay.



Bossman said:


> Pakistan is an exporter of wheat so you are living in ancient times.
> 
> 
> 
> A few weeks after the Apaches land in India.
> 
> The Turkish choppers are also coming. Just look at the construction activity in Multan.
> 
> There is a big shit in India if the Apaches are with the Airforce or the Army. I hope they end up with the Airforce. In that case they will be totally useless. India does not have a mature Army Aviation Corp. Let’s wait and see. If we get them, Pak army will operationalize the Zulus in 6 months while IAF will still be building landing pads to handle the weight of the Apaches.
> 
> I think the Americans understand us now. With the big capital account surplus (a post 2ww measure and in my opinion irrelevant) India has the money to buy American stuff. The US will try to sell military stuff to them for their own benefit as they do to the Arabs. But deep down the US leadership knows that they need Pakistan and it goes beyond Afghanistan. They know Indians are a bunch of losers. Eisenhower knew that, Nixon knew that, Reagan knew that and Trump is learning that. As they say we are a hard country.


Turkish choppers are not coming, at least not for now, production line has halted as GE has stopped providing engines.

And as zulus are heading towards storage so they aren't coming either.


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## GriffinsRule

Hodor said:


> last time it was Chanay.
> 
> 
> Turkish choppers are not coming, at least not for now, production line has halted as GE has stopped providing engines.
> 
> And as zulus are heading towards storage so they aren't coming either.



Sabr ka phal meetha =)

Anyways, its too early to know but if Zulus come, then so will the T-129s, and if the recent reset in the relationships is any indicator (along with Trump mentioning restarting the military aid etc), rest assured these choppers will come to Pakistan sooner or later.


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## Imran Khan

Damn this contract went too far it was far easy if we order 50 from china


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## HRK

Bossman said:


> Pakistan is an exporter of wheat so you are living in ancient times.


we were exporter of wheat even at that time and worst part of the whole fiasco that the wheat which came to Pakistan during that period from US and paid by Pakistan was for Afghan refugees


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## Imran Khan

HRK said:


> we were exporter of wheat even at that time and worst part was the whole fiasco the wheat which came to Pakistan during that period from US and paid by Pakistan was for Afghan refugees


This time ask them to send kfc please

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## nomi007

GriffinsRule said:


> Full size picture.


pakistan name has been removed


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## Adam_Khan

No Zulus, no Atak's.. we need to start looking somewhere else.


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## Tamiyah

Adam_Khan said:


> No Zulus, no Atak's.. we need to start looking somewhere else.


Probabaly, China


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## Quwa

Tamiyah said:


> Probabaly, China


Maybe work with a partner on a rugged, ITAR-free, proven solution. (@denel Rooivalk Mk2).

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## Tamiyah

Quwa said:


> Maybe work with a partner on a rugged, ITAR-free, proven solution. (@denel Rooivalk Mk2).


Maaybe something else in going on in our military leaders.


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## nomi007

I think USA will release attack helicopters as well as engines for T-129 also



Quwa said:


> Maybe work with a partner on a rugged, ITAR-free, proven solution. (@denel Rooivalk Mk2).


better to go for Euro Tiger Helicopter more proven heli in afghanistan
2nd if we get euro tiger brand new
than we can also get Australian tiger helos after 2023

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## Humble Analyst

nomi007 said:


> I think USA will release attack helicopters as well as engines for T-129 also
> 
> 
> better to go for Euro Tiger Helicopter more proven heli in afghanistan
> 2nd if we get euro tiger brand new
> than we can also get Australian tiger helos after 2023


Why would US do that if it has to it will give super cobras
European helicopter is very expensive


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## nomi007

Humble Analyst said:


> Why would US do that if it has to it will give super cobras
> European helicopter is very expensive


European platforms are less expensive in maintenance


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## fatman17

In 2015, the US Department of Defence (DoD) announced that it has awarded Bell Helicopter a $581 million contract that includes the delivery of AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters to Pakistan.

The original DSCA notification of Pakistan’s request included 1,000 AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-surface missiles for a precision-strike and enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high altitudes.

The helicopters, which were to be delivered in 2018, never arrived in the country as military aid was suspended. The helicopters are reportedly currently in storage in the US.


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> In 2015, the US Department of Defence (DoD) announced that it has awarded Bell Helicopter a $581 million contract that includes the delivery of AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters to Pakistan.
> 
> The original DSCA notification of Pakistan’s request included 1,000 AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-surface missiles for a precision-strike and enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high altitudes.
> 
> The helicopters, which were to be delivered in 2018, never arrived in the country as military aid was suspended. The helicopters are reportedly currently in storage in the US.


This suspension will be lifted next depending on afghan peace talks progress.

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## nomi007

Humble Analyst said:


> Why would US do that if it has to it will give super cobras
> European helicopter is very expensive


Rates are almost the same
2nd Australia is also replace tiger helos in near future.


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## Humble Analyst

nomi007 said:


> Rates are almost the same
> 2nd Australia is also replace tiger helos in near future.


Well the money is paid or partially paid for Cobras and if US is willing then it will be hard to take out the money and divert for Tigers extra money will be needed. Tigers are good but light on armour as they are suitable for anti tank role from a distance and less suitable for anti terror operations as lighter protective armour. That is what I thought I read. I still think Tiger operational cost will be higher.


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## Yasser76

Humble Analyst said:


> Well the money is paid or partially paid for Cobras and if IS is willing then it will be hard to take out the money and divert for Tigers extra money will be needed. Tigers are good but light on armour as they are suitable for anti tank role from a distance and less suitable for anti terror operations as lighter protective armour. That is what I thought I read. I still think Tiger operational cost will be higher.



Only European countries bought Tiger as it kept some jobs going. Aussies bought it just a few years ago and are already looking to replace it. That should tell you all you need to know about Tiger

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## MIRauf

AH-1Z were paid for by the US Military Aid, thus they can be withheld without paying any $ back. Even if US agrees to $ put towards other product then it can only be used for US made Products ( weapons, training, spare etc. ) Best bet it to work with US to get them released and delivered.

You have to work with lobbies, interest groups to sway the US Congress and Gov't in your favor, you have to play the game right. Indians used the same strategy to derail the 8 F-16 during President Obama's term, you have to use it to reverse it by using lobbies, interest groups etc.

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## GriffinsRule

For Cobra fans, here is a very nice firepower demonstration of Japanese AH-1F Cobras. 
They are in the market to replace 60 of these for a marinized helicopter for shipbased operations (most likely AH-1Z). Before people say lets buy their older Cobras, they are most likely to keep them in service after upgrading them with homegrown tech but we can dream on.


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## nomi007



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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> This suspension will be lifted next depending on afghan peace talks progress.


Fatman sb they struck the deal with Taliban I hope flow will began

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Fatman sb they struck the deal with Taliban I hope flow will began


It's a agreement which has to be formally signed off. let's hope for the best.

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## fatman17

Industry

Aselsan orders reach historical peak

Lale Sariibrahimoglu, Ankara - Jane's Defence Weekly

21 August 2019

Follow

RSS


Aselsan ended the first half of 2019 with a record order book of USD10.2 billion, the Turkish military electronics company announced on 21 August.

It also signed new contracts worth USD1.8 billion in the six months ended 30 June. Sales rose by 41% year over year in this period to TRY9 billion (USD1.6 billion), while net profits increased by 42%.

Contracts included a share of the EUR841 million (USD932 million) Altay main battle tank serial production programme, a USD241 million sale of T129 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan, and USD113 million to build modular temporary bases for Turkish anti-terrorism forces.

Aselsan has increased its activities in the central Asian, Asia-Pacific, and African markets.


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> Industry
> 
> Aselsan orders reach historical peak
> 
> Lale Sariibrahimoglu, Ankara - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 21 August 2019
> 
> Follow
> 
> RSS
> 
> 
> Aselsan ended the first half of 2019 with a record order book of USD10.2 billion, the Turkish military electronics company announced on 21 August.
> 
> It also signed new contracts worth USD1.8 billion in the six months ended 30 June. Sales rose by 41% year over year in this period to TRY9 billion (USD1.6 billion), while net profits increased by 42%.
> 
> Contracts included a share of the EUR841 million (USD932 million) Altay main battle tank serial production programme, a USD241 million sale of T129 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan, and USD113 million to build modular temporary bases for Turkish anti-terrorism forces.
> 
> Aselsan has increased its activities in the central Asian, Asia-Pacific, and African markets.


Turkey ko 70 saal ghairat nhi ayee usa per jab hum ne contract sign kiya a gai


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## kenyannoobie

TOPGUN said:


> What will they bring which we don't have already ?



530s are light,low cost and easy to maintain. Ideally,they'd serve as first response for the heavier dedicated gunships like the Hinds and/or129s/Cobras.

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## Shabi1

kenyannoobie said:


> 530s are light,low cost and easy to maintain. Ideally,they'd serve as first response for the heavier dedicated gunships like the Hinds and/or129s/Cobras.



We already have something for the scout role.
The AS 550 Fennec, and it can operate at higher altitudes.

And in terms of economical platforms PA also has armed drones that would be more cheaper for armed scout role.

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## nomi007



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## Inception-06



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## Zulfiqar

Forget Ah-1z.

Let's go for this (yes it is a wish with no basis in reality as it is not yet in production and not in same weight class probably as well. Just throwing it out about future of attack recon helicopters a decade later).

Latest program of Bell.







http://news.bellflight.com/en-US/18...m=social&utm_campaign=FARA&utm_source=twitter


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## python-000

Zulfiqar said:


> Forget Ah-1z.
> 
> Let's go for this (yes it is a wish with no basis in reality as it is not yet in production and not in same weight class probably as well. Just throwing it out about future of attack recon helicopters a decade later).
> 
> Latest program of Bell.
> 
> View attachment 582169
> 
> 
> http://news.bellflight.com/en-US/18...m=social&utm_campaign=FARA&utm_source=twitter


China can convert its Z-10 series into this with limited changes...


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## fatman17

A recent image (September 2018) indicated an export variant (Z-10ME) is being developed possibly with better electronics (including MAWS, new IFF), a bigger ammunition magazine in the nose, redesigned engine air intakes with particle separating mesh and more powerful engines (WZ-9G?). The latest video (September 2018) suggested that some Z-10s and Z-10Hs (S/N LH9621xx, 9531xx, 9631xx, 9511xx) have been further upgraded. It features external armor plates outside the forward and back cockpits as well as the engine compartment to provide a better protection against small AAA fire. MAWS sensors were installed on both sides of the nose. The gunner also wears the new HMD.

- Last Updated 10/12/19

Will the Z10ME make a comeback with the Pakistan Army Aviation? 
With the supply of the American Super Cobra suspended indefinitely by the Trump Administration and the resolution of the NOC for the Turkish T129 power plant by the US now nearly a impossibility as US -Turkey relationship getting worse by the day, it now seems that Pakistan may not have any other choice, in the near term to once again reevaluate the performance of the new and improved Z10ME to complement the existing fleet of 35 odd AH1F Cobra attack helicopters in service with the air arm since 1984, some 35 years.


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## fatman17

A recent image (September 2018) indicated an export variant (Z-10ME) is being developed possibly with better electronics (including MAWS, new IFF), a bigger ammunition magazine in the nose, redesigned engine air intakes with particle separating mesh and more powerful engines (WZ-9G?). The latest video (September 2018) suggested that some Z-10s and Z-10Hs (S/N LH9621xx, 9531xx, 9631xx, 9511xx) have been further upgraded. It features external armor plates outside the forward and back cockpits as well as the engine compartment to provide a better protection against small AAA fire. MAWS sensors were installed on both sides of the nose. The gunner also wears the new HMD.

- Last Updated 10/12/19

Will the Z10ME make a comeback with the Pakistan Army Aviation? 
With the supply of the American Super Cobra suspended indefinitely by the Trump Administration and the resolution of the NOC for the Turkish T129 power plant by the US now nearly a impossibility as US -Turkey relationship getting worse by the day, it now seems that Pakistan may not have any other choice, in the near term to once again reevaluate the performance of the new and improved Z10ME to complement the existing fleet of 35 odd AH1F Cobra attack helicopters in service with the air arm since 1984, some 35 years.

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## Quwa

IMO we should upgrade the existing Cobras and try a SLEP to the airframes where possible. But aside from that, co-develop and manufacture a 10 ton attack helicopter like the Rooivalk Mk2, ATAK 2 or the next gen Chinese one. Procure those bigger ones in numbers, better suited for CAS in the Eastern theatre. The T129 and Z-10ME are more or less LCH class. But one in between option is get TAI to develop a 7-8 ton ATAK (more rugged) on the TEI engine, and then license build 100+ of those in Pakistan

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## python-000

Quwa said:


> IMO we should upgrade the existing Cobras and try a SLEP to the airframes where possible. But aside from that, co-develop and manufacture a 10 ton attack helicopter like the Rooivalk Mk2, ATAK 2 or the next gen Chinese one. Procure those bigger ones in numbers, better suited for CAS in the Eastern theatre. The T129 and Z-10ME are more or less LCH class. But one in between option is get TAI to develop a 7-8 ton ATAK (more rugged) on the TEI engine, and then license build 100+ of those in Pakistan


you are absolutely right but point is the what our ARMY thinking about this issue the army also evaluated Mi-28 in Russia some years ago but come is 0/0...


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## nomi007

Quwa said:


> IMO we should upgrade the existing Cobras and try a SLEP to the airframes where possible. But aside from that, co-develop and manufacture a 10 ton attack helicopter like the Rooivalk Mk2, ATAK 2 or the next gen Chinese one. Procure those bigger ones in numbers, better suited for CAS in the Eastern theatre. The T129 and Z-10ME are more or less LCH class. But one in between option is get TAI to develop a 7-8 ton ATAK (more rugged) on the TEI engine, and then license build 100+ of those in Pakistan


what are alternative engines for TAI-129 helo?


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## Affanakad0t.

nomi007 said:


> what are alternative engines for TAI-129 helo?


Their locally manufactured engine

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## CHACHA"G"

Pakistani Army Aviation have* light category* fully cover , PAA have Airbus H125/H125m for light transport and light attack heli , this will also mean PAA will soon retire or reassign Bell 206B (light heli) to Para-Forces ..
In *light to medium (medium light)* category PAA have BELL-412EP and I am sure PAA will go for more of them and in same category PAA bought AW-139 my take on this purchase PAA will going to buy them in numbers not only for SAR but for general purpose utility heli (Just like Mi-17 and Puma combo) … Bell-412 and AW-139 best combo for medium-light category ..
Now for* heavy medium* PAA have Mi17 (this heli not going anywhere , we may see more of them) and PUMA ,, PAA may replace PUMA with *Eurocopter EC725 Caracal*, now called *Airbus Helicopters H225M (more logical because we already have airbus helis) .. *
If we look at heavy category , I see Mil Mi-38 making into PAA in 10+ years , maybe 10 to 15 helis but they will surly come ….. 
In attack heli category there is A mass ,,,,,,,,, T-129 stope (because of US) , Super Cobra again stopped by US , Z-10 not ready …….. Time will tell what PAA will do in this category ..


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

python-000 said:


> you are absolutely right but point is the what our ARMY thinking about this issue the army also evaluated Mi-28 in Russia some years ago but come is 0/0...


The only heavyweight attack helicopter semi-available to us is the Rooivalk. However, we'd need to co-fund its upgrade (Rooivalk Mk2), which will probably mean securing and integrating a new engine, transmission, avionics, and weapons. However, Denel said that whoever helps fund it, will get to manufacture the helicopter (and I think take over most of the production work). So, it's a win-win, assuming you can take the risk. 

That said, if it were me, I'd actually go for it. Of course, that'll mean finding a SLEP for our existing Cobras, but it's time to re-apply the PAF's thinking along the whole military. 

Our leadership isn't going to pick fights, and where it can, it'll try avoiding a fight as much as possible. 

Whatever one may think of this fact, at least from the standpoint of defence development, it buys us time. And the good thing about the Rooivalk Mk2, it's halfway there since Denel is re-using the same airframe. 

Anyways, the reason why Denel had trouble exporting the Rooivalk in the past was because Airbus DS was trying to push its Tiger platform. That is not an issue today as Airbus DS has taken its foot off the Tiger program, and just as importantly, Pakistan is an Airbus DS customer via the H125/H125m program. Airbus also said it'll support the new Rooivalk program, so some kind of licensing fee element is involved. We can deal. 

Alternatively, we can leverage some strings at Leonardo (having bought their AW139 and, potentially, another type for the PN) to get the transmission and other critical parts.

Besides that, the question of the engine is interesting. We can stick to the existing one (Malika), or talk to them re: the new Aneto-series. We can also take a two-phase approach, e.g., a Block 1 with the Malika, and then a Block 2 with the Aneto (and other improvements). 

Imagine roadmapping a 120~180 aircraft requirement over 20 years and, in turn, manufacturing them gradually for local and export (we can market this solution to Brazil, Ukraine, etc).

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## Ahmet Pasha

Why not make a family of helos and stop sending forex to foreign countries??
Like bell has done, Leonardo and Mil in russia has done


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The only heavyweight attack helicopter semi-available to us is the Rooivalk. However, we'd need to co-fund its upgrade (Rooivalk Mk2), which will probably mean securing and integrating a new engine, transmission, avionics, and weapons. However, Denel said that whoever helps fund it, will get to manufacture the helicopter (and I think take over most of the production work). So, it's a win-win, assuming you can take the risk.
> 
> That said, if it were me, I'd actually go for it. Of course, that'll mean finding a SLEP for our existing Cobras, but it's time to re-apply the PAF's thinking along the whole military.
> 
> Our leadership isn't going to pick fights, and where it can, it'll try avoiding a fight as much as possible.
> 
> Whatever one may think of this fact, at least from the standpoint of defence development, it buys us time. And the good thing about the Rooivalk Mk2, it's halfway there since Denel is re-using the same airframe.
> 
> Anyways, the reason why Denel had trouble exporting the Rooivalk in the past was because Airbus DS was trying to push its Tiger platform. That is not an issue today as Airbus DS has taken its foot off the Tiger program, and just as importantly, Pakistan is an Airbus DS customer via the H125/H125m program. Airbus also said it'll support the new Rooivalk program, so some kind of licensing fee element is involved. We can deal.
> 
> Alternatively, we can leverage some strings at Leonardo (having bought their AW139 and, potentially, another type for the PN) to get the transmission and other critical parts.
> 
> Besides that, the question of the engine is interesting. We can stick to the existing one (Malika), or talk to them re: the new Aneto-series. We can also take a two-phase approach, e.g., a Block 1 with the Malika, and then a Block 2 with the Aneto (and other improvements).
> 
> Imagine roadmapping a 120~180 aircraft requirement over 20 years and, in turn, manufacturing them gradually for local and export (we can market this solution to Brazil, Ukraine, etc).


----------



## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186289334921641986

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186317407314497536@Quwa @GriffinsRule @Signalian your input in this discussion!


----------



## GriffinsRule

Haris Ali2140 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186289334921641986
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186317407314497536@Quwa @GriffinsRule @Signalian your input in this discussion!


Both are capable helicopters but AW139 has twice the power, speed, range, endurance and payload advantage. Its basically a better helicopter in every regard at a slight higher cost.
In service, PA operates the basic 412EP version, and a few examples have been upgraded with a FLIR turret and can be fitted with a winch. However, they don't have a glass cockpit and if the rescue was to be done behind enemy lines, the speed and range advantage of the AW139 as well its defensive suite (PAF's version) would give it an edge. Both can be have machine guns mounted as well, so its a draw there.
In PAA, the AW139s are not as well equipped and are clearly more for VIP transport it seems then the PAF versions, which are suitably equipped for CSAR.

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## Ahmet Pasha

AW139 has a very good reputation in naval sar and csar. It is widely used for rescue from freighters and oil tankers. In a documentary they said it has some special hovering capabilities that's why.

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## Signalian

Haris Ali2140 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186289334921641986
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186317407314497536@Quwa @GriffinsRule @Signalian your input in this discussion!


Alouette III has served its time. AW-139 is a good choice for replacement. AW-101 could be next hopefully, especially as a counterpart or replacement for Mi-17.

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## khanasifm

Signalian said:


> Alouette III has served its time. AW-139 is a good choice for replacement. AW-101 could be next hopefully, especially as a counterpart or replacement for Mi-17.



Mi-17 may be taking transport role especially for ssg paf ?? Also part of new transport wing covering southern pak ?, guessing


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## khanasifm

When is paa and on replacing its fleet?


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## denel

Signalian said:


> Alouette III has served its time. AW-139 is a good choice for replacement. AW-101 could be next hopefully, especially as a counterpart or replacement for Mi-17.


Alouette was amazing for us; it was able to get in and out including as mini gunship; very versitile hopper.

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## Zulfiqar

Haris Ali2140 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186289334921641986
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186317407314497536@Quwa @GriffinsRule @Signalian your input in this discussion!









AW-139s used by the Irish.

Don't expect AW-139s to do air assaults like black hawks or bell-412. Its purpose is different.

The max these would be used for is for following duties apart from CSAR/logistics.

http://airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2019/May 2019/Boeing-Gearing-Up-for-MH-139-Test-Models-Production.aspx

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> Alouette III has served its time. AW-139 is a good choice for replacement. AW-101 could be next hopefully, especially as a counterpart or replacement for Mi-17.


AW101 would be mad expensive to induct at scale to replace the Mi-17s. I suspect the Mi-17s would go on like the Hercs due to their cost/value. But I would keep an eye on a potential Puma replacement.

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> AW101 would be mad expensive to induct at scale to replace the Mi-17s. I suspect the Mi-17s would go on like the Hercs due to their cost/value. But I would keep an eye on a potential Puma replacement.


Thats why own rotary system is advocated, there is no TOT from abroad even.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Turk 10ton helo


Signalian said:


> Alouette III has served its time. AW-139 is a good choice for replacement. AW-101 could be next hopefully, especially as a counterpart or replacement for Mi-17.



That's so true man enough is enough. A local helicopter programme is need of the hour.


Signalian said:


> Thats why own rotary system is advocated, there is no TOT from abroad even.


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## Imran Khan

ZULU is dead ?


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## Affanakad0t.

Imran Khan said:


> ZULU is dead ?


Sadly


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## TOPGUN

Imran Khan said:


> ZULU is dead ?



Not just yet !!


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## khanasifm

Interesting [emoji848]

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 587673
> 
> 
> Interesting [emoji848]


They lost almost all F105 inventory at Vietnam.

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## blinder

Last three AH-1Z now also stored at 309th AMARG in Tucson, Arizona. All twelve now 'conserved'...

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## Affanakad0t.

blinder said:


> Last three AH-1Z now also stored at 309th AMARG in Tucson, Arizona. All twelve now 'conserved'...


They are gonna stay there unless we pay.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Amreeeki phir bhi nai de ge


Affanakad0t. said:


> They are gonna stay there unless we pay.

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## Viper27

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Amreeeki phir bhi nai de ge



US has no problems as long as we make the entire payment from our pockets.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Pakistan me baith kar ye sohane khwab dekhna bahut asaan hai


Viper27 said:


> US has no problems as long as we make the entire payment from our pockets.



US is ideologically not in the mood to supply us anything. Chinese, Turks, Russian and above all we ourselves are now and in future our defence suppliers.

Maybe something very very blunt and useless. Just maybe.

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## Yankee-stani

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Pakistan me baith kar ye sohane khwab dekhna bahut asaan hai
> 
> 
> US is ideologically not in the mood to supply us anything. Chinese, Turks, Russian and above all we ourselves are now and in future our defence suppliers.
> 
> Maybe something very very blunt and useless. Just maybe.



Screw the Yanks good for nothing only used us for hired guns when needed first it was against the Soviets then against their mess left in Afghanistan nothing but troublemakers

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## Pakistani Fighter

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Pakistan me baith kar ye sohane khwab dekhna bahut asaan hai
> 
> 
> US is ideologically not in the mood to supply us anything. Chinese, Turks, Russian and above all we ourselves are now and in future our defence suppliers.
> 
> Maybe something very very blunt and useless. Just maybe.


I think if we have money, we can even buy F 35s from US


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## Yankee-stani

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I think if we have money, we can even buy F 35s from US



The US wont still all arms and defense deals go through the US Congress who will exhaust all efforts to prevent arms sales to Pakistan even if Trump is transactional remember the Israeli and Indian lobby is strong on Capital Hill besides have learned from the F-16 debacle of the early 1990s of we had the money we should opt for SU-57 or the J-20 or go the long route cooperate with Beijing for the J 20 locally produced fighters once money there or work with Ankara with TFX project


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## Pakistani Fighter

OsmanAli98 said:


> The US wont still all arms and defense deals go through the US Congress who will exhaust all efforts to prevent arms sales to Pakistan even if Trump is transactional remember the Israeli and Indian lobby is strong on Capital Hill besides have learned from the F-16 debacle of the early 1990s of we had the money we should opt for SU-57 or the J-20 or go the long route cooperate with Beijing for the J 20 locally produced fighters once money there or work with Ankara with TFX project


No shud look for F 35s. American technology is still the best


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## Yankee-stani

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> No shud look for F 35s. American technology is still the best


Yeah good luck now when we have millions of Ganghus who are now being elected all over the place here and now that cheap labor immigration will be dominated by Indians the Indian influence in US politics is too deep now We gotta work with partners willing to sell not with US whose sales of arms and defense equipment rests on US Congress dominated by Indians and Israeli lobbies

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## Haris Ali2140

OsmanAli98 said:


> The US wont still all arms and defense deals go through the US Congress who will exhaust all efforts to prevent arms sales to Pakistan even if Trump is transactional remember the Israeli and Indian lobby is strong on Capital Hill besides have learned from the F-16 debacle of the early 1990s of we had the money we should opt for SU-57 or the J-20 or go the long route cooperate with Beijing for the J 20 locally produced fighters once money there or work with Ankara with TFX project


Its all about money.

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## Ahmet Pasha

It's all about US interest, goals. Which goal outwighs the other


Haris Ali2140 said:


> Its all about money.

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## Haris Ali2140

Ahmet Pasha said:


> It's all about US interest, goals. Which goal outwighs the other


Yeah but giving some f16s and cobras won't have much effect on them.

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## TOPGUN

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Yeah but giving some f16s and cobras won't have much effect on them.



Perhaps, but it will have a effect on crybaby india !!

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## Aamir Hussain

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 587673
> 
> 
> Interesting [emoji848]



I'm sure you know that most of air ops flown in Vietnam were for CAS. Maybe that is the reason why AAA played such a big part in downing of USAF aircraft. Mind you, there were no ManPads then. 

SA-2 were for the most part employed around Hanoi & major harbors. They took their toll on high altitude bombing missions.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Tell that to the Christian and Jewish zealots in Washington DC, in Pentagon and in Langley. There whole purpose of life is fear mongering against Pakistan and all muslim countries at large. 

Bro this is a crusade in their minds. Whether they say it out loud or not. 
The countries Wesley Clark highlighted almost highlighted almost all are gone. Only a couple remain. Add Pakistan, Gulf nations(for greater Israel) and Turkey(if it gets too islamic for them) to that list for sure.


Haris Ali2140 said:


> Yeah but giving some f16s and cobras won't have much effect on them.


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## Philip the Arab

UAE could assist in upgrading Pakistani AH-1s with new unveiling of UMTAS/Hellfire/Brimstone missile and Cirit/APKWS infrared imaging rocket.


















In theory AH-1 modification with UAE weapon could carry 8 or 16 ATGMs and 8 or 16 imaging infrared rockets.




@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
You think this could work?

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## Affanakad0t.

Philip the Arab said:


> UAE could assist in upgrading Pakistani AH-1s with new unveiling of UMTAS/Hellfire/Brimstone missile and Cirit/APKWS infrared imaging rocket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory AH-1 modification with UAE weapon could carry 8 or 16 ATGMs and 8 or 16 imaging infrared rockets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> You think this could work?


Turkey can also do this upgrade.

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## HAIDER

Philip the Arab said:


> UAE could assist in upgrading Pakistani AH-1s with new unveiling of UMTAS/Hellfire/Brimstone missile and Cirit/APKWS infrared imaging rocket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory AH-1 modification with UAE weapon could carry 8 or 16 ATGMs and 8 or 16 imaging infrared rockets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> You think this could work?


No point to upgrade these 1960s machine. T129 or Chinese Helo is the future.

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## Philip the Arab

HAIDER said:


> No point to upgrade these 1960s machine. T129 or Chinese Helo is the future.


Heard of the AH-1Z?

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## Khafee

Philip the Arab said:


> Heard of the *AH-1Z*?



Arriving IA Q1~Q2 2020

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## Philip the Arab

Khafee said:


> Arriving IA Q1~Q2 2020
> 
> View attachment 590038
> View attachment 590041


Marines were thinking of upgrading existing helicopters to that standard but changed their mind and used new built helicopters.

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## Khafee

Philip the Arab said:


> Marines were thinking of upgrading existing helicopters to that standard but changed their mind and used new built helicopters.


Jordanians have done a great job of upgrading older ones. Maybe you could do a proper thread on it?

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## Philip the Arab

Khafee said:


> Jordanians have done a great job of upgrading older ones. Maybe you could do a proper thread on it?


There is news articles on it, but if I was Pakistan I wouldn't trust the US with doing these upgrades.

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## HAIDER

Philip the Arab said:


> Heard of the AH-1Z?


Never delivered yet, already few of them assign to Marine. And you talk about AH1s. Not z.
Plus, these weapon need much more powerful engine. Otherwise boneyard full of AH1s

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## Imran Khan

HAIDER said:


> Never delivered yet, already few of them assign to Marine. And you talk about AH1s. Not z.
> Plus, these weapon need much more powerful engine. Otherwise boneyard full of AH1s


bhool jao yaar


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## HAIDER

Imran Khan said:


> bhool jao yaar


ham tu kab ka bhool chukaa.... sir ji naya bunty agaya haa....


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## Imran Khan

HAIDER said:


> ham tu kab ka bhool chukaa.... sir ji naya bunty agaya haa....


bus yaar tel dekho tel ki dhaar dekho hahahah


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## alikazmi007

Khafee said:


> Arriving IA Q1~Q2 2020
> 
> View attachment 590038
> View attachment 590041



From your lips to God's ears! Def need these bad boyz...

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## Philip the Arab

KSA apparently hired Denel engineers and manufactured indigenous version of Mokopa or got TOT from Denel(VERY UNLIKELY) for Mokopa ATGM. It could also possibly upgrade anti tank capabilities of AH-1 and extend capabilities for a while.






Anti-armor missile produced by King Abdulaziz City for Science and Technology
The missile is the Saudi version of the South African missile *Mokopa* after the full transfer of the missile's technology
*Technical Specifications*

Weight 50kg
The diameter is 178mm
The range is 10km
Speed 420 m/s
Capable of penetrating 1300 mm of armor

launcher:
An ejector holds four missiles installed on an armored vehicle
A naval platform
Helicopters
Unmanned aerial vehicles


https://city-press.news24.com/News/...olen-and-given-to-saudi-arms-company-20191118











@Bilal Khan (Quwa) 
Could this be a valid option?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Philip the Arab said:


> KSA apparently hired Denel engineers and manufactured indigenous version of Mokopa or got TOT from Denel(VERY UNLIKELY) for Mokopa ATGM. It could also possibly upgrade anti tank capabilities of AH-1 and extend capabilities for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-armor missile produced by King Abdulaziz City for Science and Technology
> The missile is the Saudi version of the South African missile *Mokopa* after the full transfer of the missile's technology
> *Technical Specifications*
> 
> Weight 50kg
> The diameter is 178mm
> The range is 10km
> Speed 420 m/s
> Capable of penetrating 1300 mm of armor
> 
> launcher:
> An ejector holds four missiles installed on an armored vehicle
> A naval platform
> Helicopters
> Unmanned aerial vehicles
> 
> 
> https://city-press.news24.com/News/...olen-and-given-to-saudi-arms-company-20191118
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Could this be a valid option?


The Army might test it as part of its wide-deployment ATGM requirement. The Army will test OMTAS/UMTAS by the end of Q4 2019 (if not already) as well. So let's see.

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## Affanakad0t.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Army might test it as part of its wide-deployment ATGM requirement. The Army will test OMTAS/UMTAS by the end of Q4 2019 (if not already) as well. So let's see.


We are getting umtas/omtas with t129 package right?

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## Philip the Arab

Affanakad0t. said:


> We are getting umtas/omtas with t129 package right?


Of course, don't know which other missiles are even integrated on T-129.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Affanakad0t. said:


> We are getting umtas/omtas with t129 package right?


Yes it was part of that package too. However, there's an additional requirement too, and tests for those were to happen Q4 2019 (they'll either happen, are already happening, or concluding now). Not sure what else they are looking at, but I imagine a Chinese option would also be there, and possibly South African and Ukrainian too.

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## Philip the Arab

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yes it was part of that package too. However, there's an additional requirement too, and tests for those were to happen Q4 2019 (they'll either happen, are already happening, or concluding now). Not sure what else they are looking at, but I imagine a Chinese option would also be there, and possibly South African and Ukrainian too.


You know what the likelihood of HJ-12 being purchased is?

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## Affanakad0t.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yes it was part of that package too. However, there's an additional requirement too, and tests for those were to happen Q4 2019 (they'll either happen, are already happening, or concluding now). Not sure what else they are looking at, but I imagine a Chinese option would also be there, and possibly South African and Ukrainian too.






Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yes it was part of that package too. However, there's an additional requirement too, and tests for those were to happen Q4 2019 (they'll either happen, are already happening, or concluding now). Not sure what else they are looking at, but I imagine a Chinese option would also be there, and possibly South African and Ukrainian too.


Or More kornets maybe?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Philip the Arab said:


> You know what the likelihood of HJ-12 being purchased is?


I don't know. But there are a couple of things to think about. The Army would need to set up some infrastructure to maintain and use the UMTAS/OMTAS. There's an overhead involved. So, there's one incentive right there to take up the UMTAS/OMTAS, possibly even acquire it under ToT (or encourage Roketsan to set-up its own production plant in Pakistan to supply the missiles from within).



Affanakad0t. said:


> Or More kornets maybe?


Possibly, but I don't think Pakistan will take any risks with CAATSA by dealing with the Russians any further (esp. when the Russian side has repeatedly shown to not want to engage deeply with Pakistan either, militarily at least).

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## Philip the Arab

Affanakad0t. said:


> Or More kornets maybe?


In all honesty, Kornets are overhyped. Russians have probably made their T-90s immune, or at least resistant to the Kornet copper warhead. Pakistan would be better off investing in less well known, but lethal ATGMs for use from various countries.

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## Affanakad0t.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't know. But there are a couple of things to think about. The Army would need to set up some infrastructure to maintain and use the UMTAS/OMTAS. There's an overhead involved. So, there's one incentive right there to take up the UMTAS/OMTAS, possibly even acquire it under ToT (or encourage Roketsan to set-up its own production plant in Pakistan to supply the missiles from within).
> 
> 
> Possibly, but I don't think Pakistan will take any risks with CAATSA by dealing with the Russians any further (esp. when the Russian side has repeatedly shown to not want to engage deeply with Pakistan either, militarily at least).


Nicely explained thanks. 
And what about the procedurement of more hind e?



Philip the Arab said:


> In all honesty, Kornets are overhyped. Russians have probably made their T-90s immune, or at least resistant to the Kornet copper warhead. Pakistan would be better off investing in less well known, but lethal ATGMs for use from various countries.


And options are turkey china RSA Ukraine only. Hellfire is another good option but i know we are not getting it :3

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## Philip the Arab

Affanakad0t. said:


> Nicely explained thanks.
> And what about the procedurement of more hind e?
> 
> 
> And options are turkey china RSA Ukraine only. Hellfire is another good option but i know we are not getting it :3


Not true, as I was highlighting there are developing systems in both UAE, and KSA which enjoy great relations with Pakistan. They could be options if further developed, and publicized in the same way UMTAS is publicized instead of hiding them in the shadows.

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## Hassan Guy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Army might test it as part of its wide-deployment ATGM requirement. The Army will test OMTAS/UMTAS by the end of Q4 2019 (if not already) as well. So let's see.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yes it was part of that package too. However, there's an additional requirement too, and tests for those were to happen Q4 2019 (they'll either happen, are already happening, or concluding now). Not sure what else they are looking at, but I imagine a Chinese option would also be there, and possibly South African and Ukrainian too.


I think we know where this is going...

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## denel

some allouette photos for nostalgia from angola ops.

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## fatman17

Fine shot of the Z-10ME in flight still with the sidewards facing exhausts and different sand-filters to the one shown at Zhuhai.

(Image via @航空工业 from Weixin) https://t.co/1iR48IxBXr

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Fine shot of the Z-10ME in flight still with the sidewards facing exhausts and different sand-filters to the one shown at Zhuhai.
> 
> (Image via @航空工业 from Weixin) https://t.co/1iR48IxBXr
> View attachment 590872
> View attachment 590873
> View attachment 590874


With all the improvements made by the Chinese and with the US NOC for T129 not forthcoming, the Z10ME may be coming back in the race for new armed helos for the PAA.

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## Cool_Soldier

Still confusion is there about finalizing T-129 deal.
No official confirmation from either side yet after Engine controversy sparked.


----------



## Great Janjua

Cool_Soldier said:


> Still confusion is there about finalizing T-129 deal.
> No official confirmation from either side yet after Engine controversy sparked.


The issue was resolved long time ago 2 helicopters are in production as we speak


----------



## fatman17

Great Janjua said:


> The issue was resolved long time ago 2 helicopters are in production as we speak


I have my doubts


----------



## PakFactor

Great Janjua said:


> The issue was resolved long time ago 2 helicopters are in production as we speak



I thought their was the issue of US not allowing license to use the engines for our Helos.


----------



## Viper27

PakFactor said:


> I thought their was the issue of US not allowing license to use the engines for our Helos.



Issue has been resolved after Trump lifted sanctions on Turkey. Was discussed on this forum in detail a couple of weeks back.

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## fatman17

Viper27 said:


> Issue has been resolved after Trump lifted sanctions on Turkey. Was discussed on this forum in detail a couple of weeks back.


How come no defence Website reported such a important issue.

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## Affanakad0t.

fatman17 said:


> How come no defence Website reported such a important issue.


TAI official said that engine was never a problem. Pakistan army changed specs 2 to 3 times. 
And recently news came out that TAI started working on 2 pakistani t129 body/frame. But no news agency posted this.

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> With all the improvements made by the Chinese and with the US NOC for T129 not forthcoming, the Z10ME may be coming back in the race for new armed helos for the PAA.



Based on specs ceiling of 4400 is not impressive as well as max engine still under 1000 and weight of 6000 kg too heavy compared to rivals ?? 

compared to say t129 

With max 5000 kg weight and engine over 1000 plus kw x2 and ceiling of 4750 plus or 15000 ft in hot humid environment which was where I think it excels 


https://www.tusas.com.tr/en/product/t129-atak

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## Inception-06

khanasifm said:


> Based on specs ceiling of 4400 is not impressive as well as max engine still under 1000 and weight of 6000 kg too heavy compared to rivals ??
> 
> compared to say t129
> 
> With max 5000 kg weight and engine over 1000 plus kw x2 and ceiling of 4750 plus or 15000 ft in hot humid environment which was where I think it excels
> 
> 
> https://www.tusas.com.tr/en/product/t129-atak



why PLA has not such high requirements like the Pakistan Army?


----------



## fatman17

Inception-06 said:


> why PLA has not such high requirements like the Pakistan Army?


Every country has their own requirements standards. Pakistan army aviation assets operate in hot, high and mountainous areas.

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## MastanKhan

Inception-06 said:


> why PLA has not such high requirements like the Pakistan Army?



Hi,

They don't have OUR COMBAT experience---. 

They don't have our weapons experience and exposure as well---.

They don't have our experience of training with the americans either---.

As much as we blame the americans---training with them does give us insight to the needs and demands of modern day combat and the machines used---.

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## Pakhtoon yum

fatman17 said:


> Every country has their own requirements standards. Pakistan army aviation assets operate in hot, high and mountainous areas.


Hot and freezing, both extremes

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Hot and freezing, both extremes


Forget about fighting, even surviving in these extremes is a feat in itself...

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Eurocopter-AS-550C-3-Fennec/2332

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## time pass

Turkish Defense Industry will soon be hit by CAATSA sanctions. Turkey lost $9B work order for F-35 parts, *now may lose $1.2B order from Pakistan due to CAATSA. Turkey may not be able to source engine and armament for T-129.* Turkey will also lose multi billion dollars SOM cruise missile contract.

https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ton-implement-caatsa-sanctions-on-turkey-now/

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## fatman17

time pass said:


> Turkish Defense Industry will soon be hit by CAATSA sanctions. Turkey lost $9B work order for F-35 parts, *now may lose $1.2B order from Pakistan due to CAATSA. Turkey may not be able to source engine and armament for T-129.* Turkey will also lose multi billion dollars SOM cruise missile contract.
> 
> https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ton-implement-caatsa-sanctions-on-turkey-now/


Bad news. time to reevaluate the Z10M


----------



## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> Bad news. time to reevaluate the Z10M


Fake news more like it


----------



## Cool_Soldier

I believe deal for T129 is still alive.
There is no evidence of cancelled yet and still ambiguity is there regarding Engine issue.

Wait for some valid and authenticated information from either Party source.


----------



## Shabi1

Cool_Soldier said:


> I believe deal for T129 is still alive.
> There is no evidence of cancelled yet and still ambiguity is there regarding Engine issue.
> 
> Wait for some valid and authenticated information from either Party source.


There is no news of cancellation of Pakistan's AH-1Zs either.  

Discreteness in Pakistan's defence acquisitions are growing day by day, we only find out a system has arrived on 23rd March or through a foreign leak of satellite pictures.

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## Imran Khan

Shabi1 said:


> There is no news of cancellation of Pakistan's AH-1Zs either.
> 
> Discreteness in Pakistan's defence acquisitions are growing day by day, we only find out a system has arrived on 23rd March or through a foreign leak of satellite pictures.


i have a picture from past you may like it

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## DANGER-ZONE

Imran Khan said:


> i have a picture from past you may like it



Nicely done Imran Bhai, Nicely done

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## Imran Khan

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Nicely done Imran Bhai, Nicely done


CANADA gya hoa sardaar
dost ko diya hoa UDHAAR
or AMRAC gya hoa jahaz kabhi wapas nhi aaty 

wesy umeed sab ki wapsi ki rehti hai umer bher

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## Shabi1

Imran Khan said:


> CANADA gya hoa sardaar
> dost ko diya hoa UDHAAR
> or AMRAC gya hoa jahaz kabhi wapas nhi aaty
> 
> wesy umeed sab ki wapsi ki rehti hai umer bher


. Bahrain has 12 AH-1Zs on order, lets see if these will be routed there.


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## fatman17

Shabi1 said:


> . Bahrain has 12 AH-1Zs on order, lets see if these will be routed there.


You can bet on it if the country specs match

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## Sulman Badshah



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## Inception-06



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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Eurocopter-AS-550C-3-Fennec/2407







http://falcons.pk/photo/MFI-17-Mushshak/2390

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## Cornered Tiger

@Sulman Badshah Why not PAA upgrade their Mushaks to Super Mushaks standard?

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## hassan1



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## DESERT FIGHTER

Imran Khan said:


> CANADA gya hoa sardaar
> dost ko diya hoa UDHAAR
> or AMRAC gya hoa jahaz kabhi wapas nhi aaty
> 
> wesy umeed sab ki wapsi ki rehti hai umer bher


Udhar dey k maenay walay aziz o akarib ka lambi list ha bhai k pass.

Letay huway baap, baad mein tu koun mein kon?

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## Imran Khan

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 593609


duddu helicopter

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## Hallian_Khan

Rulao gy kya ab?


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Udhar dey k maenay walay aziz o akarib ka lambi list ha bhai k pass.
> 
> Letay huway baap, baad mein tu koun mein kon?


----------



## nomi007

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 593609


place?


----------



## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> place?


Training helo

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> Training helo


bro
rwp or gujaranwala


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## nomi007



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## Ahmet Pasha

AH1Z...........







nomi007 said:


>

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## GriffinsRule

No matter how many times I look at this thing, I cant bring myself to like this machine.
Sharing for other Hind lovers

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## Ahmet Pasha

South African upgrade with landing gear retracted looks mean


GriffinsRule said:


> No matter how many times I look at this thing, I cant bring myself to like this machine.
> Sharing for other Hind lovers
> View attachment 594990


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

“Anjai pleej”:

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## nomi007

*Order of Battle - Pakistan Army Aviation*
*UNIT* *EQUIPMENT* *BASE*
No. 2 Sqn. (Composite) Bell UH-1, Cessna O-1
MFI-17 Mashak Lahore
No. 3 Sqn. (Composite) Cessna O-1, MFI-17 Mashak 
No. 4 Sqn. Mil Mi 8 Dhamial
No. 4 Sqn. (Det.) Mil Mi 8 Rahwali
No. 4 Sqn. (Det.) Mil Mi 8 Gilgit
No. 5 Sqn. Alouette III Dhamial
No. 6 Sqn. (ERC) Bell UH-1H, AB-205A-1 Dhamial
No. 7 Sqn. (Composite) Cessna-O1, MFI-17 Mashak Shar-e-Faisal
No. 8 Sqn. Lama Dhamial
No. 8 Sqn. (Det.) Lama Skardu
No. 9 Sqn. (Composite) Alouette III, MFI-17 Mashak
Cessna O-1 Peshawar
No. 13 Sqn. (Composite) MFI-17 Mashak, Cessna O-1 Dhamial
No. 21 Sqn. Puma, Bell UH-1H Multan
No. 25 Sqn. Puma Dhamial
No. 31 Sqn. Bell Ah-1S, 206 Multan
No. 32 Sqn. Bell Ah-1S, 206 Multan
Army Aviation
School Bell OH-13, MFI-17 Mashak

VIP Flight cessna 421
Rockwell Turbo Commander Dhamial
Air Foce Academy Army MFI-17 Mashak 
* Army Aviation Engineering School *
503 Workshop - Dhamial
Emergency Relief Cell Bell 205 Dhamial
Frontier Corps Bell 206 Dhamial

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## Pakistani Fighter

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> “Anjai pleej”:
> 
> View attachment 595190
> View attachment 595191


Nothing against AH 1Z


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Nothing against AH 1Z


Different stokes for different folks.

That said, choppers dont fight choppers.

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## blinder

nomi007 said:


> *Order of Battle - Pakistan Army Aviation*
> *UNIT* *EQUIPMENT* *BASE*
> No. 2 Sqn. (Composite) Bell UH-1, Cessna O-1
> MFI-17 Mashak Lahore
> No. 3 Sqn. (Composite) Cessna O-1, MFI-17 Mashak
> No. 4 Sqn. Mil Mi 8 Dhamial
> No. 4 Sqn. (Det.) Mil Mi 8 Rahwali
> No. 4 Sqn. (Det.) Mil Mi 8 Gilgit
> No. 5 Sqn. Alouette III Dhamial
> No. 6 Sqn. (ERC) Bell UH-1H, AB-205A-1 Dhamial
> No. 7 Sqn. (Composite) Cessna-O1, MFI-17 Mashak Shar-e-Faisal
> No. 8 Sqn. Lama Dhamial
> No. 8 Sqn. (Det.) Lama Skardu
> No. 9 Sqn. (Composite) Alouette III, MFI-17 Mashak
> Cessna O-1 Peshawar
> No. 13 Sqn. (Composite) MFI-17 Mashak, Cessna O-1 Dhamial
> No. 21 Sqn. Puma, Bell UH-1H Multan
> No. 25 Sqn. Puma Dhamial
> No. 31 Sqn. Bell Ah-1S, 206 Multan
> No. 32 Sqn. Bell Ah-1S, 206 Multan
> Army Aviation
> School Bell OH-13, MFI-17 Mashak
> 
> VIP Flight cessna 421
> Rockwell Turbo Commander Dhamial
> Air Foce Academy Army MFI-17 Mashak
> * Army Aviation Engineering School *
> 503 Workshop - Dhamial
> Emergency Relief Cell Bell 205 Dhamial
> Frontier Corps Bell 206 Dhamial



From which date/year is this order of battle?
It seems a historical overview?


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## Danish saleem

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> “Anjai pleej”:
> 
> View attachment 595190
> View attachment 595191


why its painted blue in lower side?


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Neechay se upar dekho ge to sirf asman nazar aye ga Mi35 nai



Danish saleem said:


> why its painted blue in lower side?

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## mingle

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Neechay se upar dekho ge to sirf asman nazar aye ga Mi35 nai


How about sound of beast???


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## khanasifm

Danish saleem said:


> why its painted blue in lower side?



folks looking up will have difficulty distinguishing against blue sky and

Folks looking down ( fighter or heli) from air will have difficulty distinguishing against ground so grooms camo on the top [emoji6]


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## Danish saleem

khanasifm said:


> folks looking up will have difficulty distinguishing against blue sky and
> 
> Folks looking down ( fighter or heli) from air will have difficulty distinguishing against ground so grooms camo on the top [emoji6]



hahahaha


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## JPMM

Pakistani Army Mi-17 supporting Portuguese Paras in RCA/CAR. Their is an iron bar at the door of the chopper, were they adapted the use of a LMG or Sniper rifle.





Thanks

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## Haris Ali2140

Hands down this is the the complete package "Beauty & Beast":


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## mingle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Hands down this is the the complete package "Beauty & Beast":


State Department tweet yesterday they resuming military to military contact along advance traning. She winked that security assistance not resume yet means will resume down the road.
For sure these birds are coming to Pak

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## Haris Ali2140

mingle said:


> State Department tweet yesterday they resuming military to military contact along advance traning. She winked that security assistance not resume yet means will resume down the road.
> For sure these birds are coming to Pak


Ameen!!!

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## Imran Khan

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Ameen!!!


not ameen NAUZBILLAH DAFA DOOOR

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## Haris Ali2140

Imran Khan said:


> not ameen NAUZBILLAH DAFA DOOOR


Husn bohat burri cheez hai.

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## mingle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Ameen!!!


Instead of Aid Pak should insist about CSF issue and more trade quota its lot better than 500$ million per year which are peanuts



Imran Khan said:


> not ameen NAUZBILLAH DAFA DOOOR


Sir G they need Pak more badly than before.

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## Haris Ali2140

mingle said:


> Instead of Aid Pak should insist about CSF issue and more trade quota its lot better than 500$ million per year which are peanuts
> 
> 
> Sir G they need Pak more badly than before.


Let's hope the boys have learnt from the sacrifices of the previous ones and call the right shots.

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## mingle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Let's hope the boys have learnt from the sacrifices of the previous ones and call the right shots.


Yeh agree with U.i am listening since yesterday by everyone on TV oh we should stay neutral?? I couldn't get it how we can stay neutral??? We have to take one side one way or another.


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## Haris Ali2140

mingle said:


> Yeh agree with U.i am listening since yesterday by everyone on TV oh we should stay neutral?? I couldn't get it how we can stay neutral??? We have to take one side one way or another.



We don't serve any strategic purpose in this unlike the case of Afg. So I think if US starts a war we will only be asked to not allow Iranian assets to operate in Pakistan. Which will also be the ideal case.

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## mingle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> We don't serve any strategic purpose in this unlike the case of Afg. So I think if US starts a war we will only be asked to not allow Iranian assets to operate in Pakistan. Which will also be the ideal case.


Also iranian refugees issue but I doubt there would be any ground invasion Max they will smash facilities. US is hell bend to cutt size iranian influence in Iraq and Syria will reverse it pre 2003 Iraq invasion. US constantly bombing shiat militias in Iraq and Syria so they cut into size.

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## nomi007



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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> Also iranian refugees issue but I doubt there would be any ground invasion Max they will smash facilities. US is hell bend to cutt size iranian influence in Iraq and Syria will reverse it pre 2003 Iraq invasion. US constantly bombing shiat militias in Iraq and Syria so they cut into size.


USA isnt..there is simple confusion..
USA did nothing in syria and let russia and iran take control


iraq is lost cause due to share size of shia population but losing yemen and syria is total failure of gulf countries and USA policy of restraining iran..

infatc even lebanon is seemingly slipping away from saudis...


effectively after this strike iran has
iraq 100% check
syria 90% check
yemen 50% stale mate check
lebanon 50% fight still going on

if anything this strike will be welcomed by iranian as it sets up a perfect ploy for them to take iraq and push out americans ..the very reason why there will be no response..its their win..a single commander has no value in this game of chess

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> USA isnt..there is simple confusion..
> USA did nothing in syria and let russia and iran take control
> 
> 
> iraq is lost cause due to share size of shia population but losing yemen and syria is total failure of gulf countries and USA policy of restraining iran..
> 
> infatc even lebanon is seemingly slipping away from saudis...
> 
> 
> effectively after this strike iran has
> iraq 100% check
> syria 90% check
> yemen 50% stale mate check
> lebanon 50% fight still going on
> 
> if anything this strike will be welcomed by iranian as it sets up a perfect ploy for them to take iraq and push out americans ..the very reason why there will be no response..its their win..a single commander has no value in this game of chess


Iran will not do anything trust me zia if US bombed them this regime will collapse reason they tatering under sanctions last thing they need American bombs. Nobody will come to save Iran so I believe max Iran do statements leaving nuclear deal that's it major retaliation I doubt it.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Orya MJ keeps saying that arms deals are only paid when finished weapons are delivered. So by that logic the money which would've gone to AH1Z will probably now be going towards Atak


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## araz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Orya MJ keeps saying that arms deals are only paid when finished weapons are delivered. So by that logic the money which would've gone to AH1Z will probably now be going towards Atak


I think and I could be totally wrong but when you order arms if you are paying for them you make a deposit of a certain amount and continue naking small amounts of payments. Based on the receipt your provider manufactures and provides the product and the rest of the money is paid on receipt based on installments.
When foreign loans are involved the providers procures a loan and manufactures against a loan. You start making installments towards that loan ( timing can be varied depending on agreements). With CSF per agreed arrangements money is paid to provider in part for the product. Once product is ready the buyer will pay the rest of the money and procure items. The problem here is that the IS has reneged on paying the CSF as well as asking Pak Govtt to pay the full amount of money for the product. Pak side on the pther hand wants the CSF restored and moneyowed used up towards procuring the arms. This is not agreeable to US and this is where the cureent impasse is. Pak has previously walked out of the F16s deal on this account as well.
This remains my understanding so feel free to disagree.
A

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## Aamir Hussain

I wonder what happened to the deal where were about to get block 70++ and upgrade of all our F-16's??? Anyone?

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## Dreamer.

Aamir Hussain said:


> I wonder what happened to the deal where were about to get block 70++ and upgrade of all our F-16's??? Anyone?


Good question but perhaps you should not ask in army aviation thread.

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## Imran Khan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Orya MJ keeps saying that arms deals are only paid when finished weapons are delivered. So by that logic the money which would've gone to AH1Z will probably now be going towards Atak


oraya idiot don't know any sh1t of arms market .you have to keep paying and they keep buying and making for example we paid to USA for engines of turkish frigate long ago engines were made and delivered to turkey so they will be installed in miligum '



Aamir Hussain said:


> I wonder what happened to the deal where were about to get block 70++ and upgrade of all our F-16's??? Anyone?


there was no such deal all were dreams of fans sir

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## mingle

Aamir Hussain said:


> I wonder what happened to the deal where were about to get block 70++ and upgrade of all our F-16's??? Anyone?


@Khafee left Internet last November

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## ziaulislam

Aamir Hussain said:


> I wonder what happened to the deal where were about to get block 70++ and upgrade of all our F-16's??? Anyone?


yeah whoever dreamt of it woke up

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## Dreamer.

*Question*


Aamir Hussain said:


> I wonder what happened to the deal where were about to get block 70++ and upgrade of all our F-16's??? Anyone?


*Answer*


mingle said:


> Khafee left Internet last November


 

Sorry back to army aviation.

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## Ahmet Pasha

America ke nakhre uthane se acha hai. Lets just get ATAK with offsets to PAC and a potential in roads towards our own helo industry. Probably what PAA decided as well.


araz said:


> I think and I could be totally wrong but when you order arms if you are paying for them you make a deposit of a certain amount and continue naking small amounts of payments. Based on the receipt your provider manufactures and provides the product and the rest of the money is paid on receipt based on installments.
> When foreign loans are involved the providers procures a loan and manufactures against a loan. You start making installments towards that loan ( timing can be varied depending on agreements). With CSF per agreed arrangements money is paid to provider in part for the product. Once product is ready the buyer will pay the rest of the money and procure items. The problem here is that the IS has reneged on paying the CSF as well as asking Pak Govtt to pay the full amount of money for the product. Pak side on the pther hand wants the CSF restored and moneyowed used up towards procuring the arms. This is not agreeable to US and this is where the cureent impasse is. Pak has previously walked out of the F16s deal on this account as well.
> This remains my understanding so feel free to disagree.
> A

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## Imran Khan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> America ke nakhre uthane se acha hai. Lets just get ATAK with offsets to PAC and a potential in roads towards our own helo industry. Probably what PAA decided as well.


just brong few more from china then go to mess of USA sir .12 cobras se acha hai 24 z-10 le lo


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> America ke nakhre uthane se acha hai. Lets just get ATAK with offsets to PAC and a potential in roads towards our own helo industry. Probably what PAA decided as well.


We should slow down on the ATAK too. I would take a more proactive approach (like China and Turkey) where we pick a secure, affordable design that we can manufacture under license at home. In this case, an ATAK variant with the TEI engine and T625 dynamic parts/rotors could be one option. Or we wait for the heavier ATAK-2 and pair that with the Turkish 10-ton transport helicopter (same engine, rotors, etc), use the latter to replace Pumas and Mi-17s.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We should slow down on the ATAK too. I would take a more proactive approach (like China and Turkey) where we pick a secure, affordable design that we can manufacture under license at home. In this case, an ATAK variant with the TEI engine and T625 dynamic parts/rotors could be one option. Or we wait for the heavier ATAK-2 and pair that with the Turkish 10-ton transport helicopter (same engine, rotors, etc), use the latter to replace Pumas and Mi-17s.



Thats good in theory but that will be another 10 years. The AH-1s are literally falling apart and need urgent replacement

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## python-000

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We should slow down on the ATAK too. I would take a more proactive approach (like China and Turkey) where we pick a secure, affordable design that we can manufacture under license at home. In this case, an ATAK variant with the TEI engine and T625 dynamic parts/rotors could be one option. Or we wait for the heavier ATAK-2 and pair that with the Turkish 10-ton transport helicopter (same engine, rotors, etc), use the latter to replace Pumas and Mi-17s.


1 thing india purchasing purchasing & us Pakistan waiting waiting waiting....


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## Ahmet Pasha

Exactly. I like the second option and I've been advocating the same for quite some time. 

Though whatever we choose, we should have a way of making way into the helicopter market and sell our own along with private or regional jets industry.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We should slow down on the ATAK too. I would take a more proactive approach (like China and Turkey) where we pick a secure, affordable design that we can manufacture under license at home. In this case, an ATAK variant with the TEI engine and T625 dynamic parts/rotors could be one option. Or we wait for the heavier ATAK-2 and pair that with the Turkish 10-ton transport helicopter (same engine, rotors, etc), use the latter to replace Pumas and Mi-17s.



Russian Mi35 or Mi28/Ka52


Yasser76 said:


> Thats good in theory but that will be another 10 years. The AH-1s are literally falling apart and need urgent replacement

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Thats good in theory but that will be another 10 years. The AH-1s are literally falling apart and need urgent replacement


tbh the only reason why I'd consider the ATAK at this point is that it turned out as a really good high-altitude ops platform. So, it could serve in a valuable environment both for COIN/CT and anti-armour CAS. But for the latter, the PAA will need a lot more helicopters -- either adopt the ATAK in full and get its production license (as Turkey will opt to move onto the ATAK-2 in 5-10 years), or join ATAK-2.

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## mingle

Ka 52 looks promising


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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh the only reason why I'd consider the ATAK at this point is that it turned out as a really good high-altitude ops platform. So, it could serve in a valuable environment both for COIN/CT and anti-armour CAS. But for the latter, the PAA will need a lot more helicopters -- either adopt the ATAK in full and get its production license (as Turkey will opt to move onto the ATAK-2 in 5-10 years), or join ATAK-2.


Bro, why we don’t Focus in procurement of heavy transport helis ?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

StormBreaker said:


> Bro, why we don’t Focus in procurement of heavy transport helis ?


The Chinook hasn't been available to us, otherwise, the PAA would have surely pursued them through the Excess Defence Articles (EDA) program (as would the PAF for F-16s, PN for S-70s, etc, etc). Otherwise, we don't have a lot of options in that regard, the upper limit of what's on the market is the AW101, but very expensive.

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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Chinook hasn't been available to us, otherwise, the PAA would have surely pursued them through the Excess Defence Articles (EDA) program (as would the PAF for F-16s, PN for S-70s, etc, etc). Otherwise, we don't have a lot of options in that regard, the upper limit of what's on the market is the AW101, but very expensive.


Aren’t we interested in AW101 like crazy ? Sir @Khafee mentioned this earlier if i am not wrong with the model


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

StormBreaker said:


> Aren’t we interested in AW101 like crazy ? Sir @Khafee mentioned this earlier if i am not wrong with the model


Not sure if the PAA is interested in the AW101. The PN is/was considering it, but from what I was told, the PN prefers a 9-10 ton platform like S-70. Basically, swap out the Z-9ECs and Sea Kings with one platform for ASW, AShW, troop transport, etc. The S-70 isn't available, so the other option they might look at is the NH90.

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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not sure if the PAA is interested in the AW101. The PN is/was considering it, but from what I was told, the PN prefers a 9-10 ton platform like S-70. Basically, swap out the Z-9ECs and Sea Kings with one platform for ASW, AShW, troop transport, etc. The S-70 isn't available, so the other option they might look at is the NH90.


Can any of our ship carry more than one heli at the moment ? I don’t think so


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

StormBreaker said:


> Can any of our ship carry more than one heli at the moment ? I don’t think so


PNS Moawin.

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## Nomad40

Russian helicopters are good


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## Ahmet Pasha

China, Russia and Turkey have some good transport helo programs coming up. Russia and China also have a heavy program in the works. 

China came out witht he copycat Blackhawk and Z18(which looks alot like a European product i.e NH90 or AW101, since Chinese have been working with European helo manufacturers recently).


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> PNS Moawin.

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## StormBreaker

Ahmet Pasha said:


> China, Russia and Turkey have some good transport helo programs coming up. Russia and China also have a heavy program in the works.
> 
> China came out witht he copycat Blackhawk and Z18(which looks alot like a European product i.e NH90 or AW101, since Chinese have been working with European helo manufacturers recently).


I guess powerplant is still an issue here as well... ???


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## JPMM

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Chinook hasn't been available to us, otherwise, the PAA would have surely pursued them through the Excess Defence Articles (EDA) program (as would the PAF for F-16s, PN for S-70s, etc, etc). Otherwise, we don't have a lot of options in that regard, the upper limit of what's on the market is the AW101, but very expensive.


HeHe!

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## Talon

Bila un waan.. recent picture

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## StormBreaker

Hodor said:


> Bila un waan.. recent picture
> 
> View attachment 598544


The same one used in Z-10 right ?


----------



## Talon

StormBreaker said:


> The same one used in Z-10 right ?


Take a closer look...in the visor

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## bananarepublic

Hodor said:


> Bila un waan.. recent picture
> 
> View attachment 598544



Turkish


----------



## Haris Ali2140

Hodor said:


> Bila un waan.. recent picture
> 
> View attachment 598544


Recent Picture from what and where and whose???


----------



## Phantom.

Hodor said:


> Bila un waan.. recent picture
> 
> View attachment 598544




t129???


----------



## Dazzler

Hodor said:


> Bila un waan.. recent picture
> 
> View attachment 598544



Z-10, the canopy give it away.

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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> Z-10, the canopy give it away.


???

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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> ???
> View attachment 598557
> 
> 
> View attachment 598558
> 
> View attachment 598560




Yep, its thunderbolt alright.

Z-10 canopy has window provisions, 






T-129 has none






And HMDS are also different.

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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> Yep, its thunderbolt alright.
> 
> Z-10 canopy has window provisions,
> 
> View attachment 598561
> 
> 
> T-129 has none
> 
> View attachment 598562
> 
> 
> And HMDS are also different.


Is PA still testing Z-10 with the new HMDS?


----------



## StormBreaker

Hodor said:


> Take a closer look...in the visor


That’s a Z-10 cockpit reflection

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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> Is PA still testing Z-10 with the new HMDS?
> 
> View attachment 598567



The pic looks recent, and the new HMDs means this is the improved version. But, the crew looks Chinese so its too early to say whether its back for testing or not.

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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> the crew looks Chinese


He is not Chinese.

Look at the uniform and its colour, not aligned with those of PLA.

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## Talon

Dazzler said:


> The pic looks recent, and the new HMDs means this is the improved version. But, the crew looks Chinese so its too early to say whether its back for testing or not.


Senior pilot of PAA

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## Dazzler

ME looks menacing

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## Talon

Evaluation continues for the upgraded version,older one can be seen also

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## StormBreaker

Hodor said:


> Evaluation continues for the upgraded version,older one can be seen also
> 
> View attachment 599644


What is significant in upgraded Z-10 ?
Engine ?


----------



## LKJ86

Hodor said:


> Evaluation continues for the upgraded version,older one can be seen also
> 
> View attachment 599644


In China?


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

Hodor said:


> Evaluation continues for the upgraded version,older one can be seen also
> 
> View attachment 599644


So does that mean T 129 is out?


----------



## Great Janjua

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So does that mean T 129 is out?


Hope not the Turkish helicopter is much better than the chinese one the only issue is the engine I hope it is resolved quickly


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

Great Janjua said:


> Hope not the Turkish helicopter is much better than the chinese one the only issue is the engine I hope it is resolved quickly


I had talked to a Turkish official in IDEAS 2019 and was told T 129 was tested by Army before its selection. Z 10 would also had been tested with T 129 or before. Looks like ATAKs not coming atleast recently so we are extensively checking Z 10s and trying to fine flaws or areas for improvement so that we could get helicopter according to our needs


----------



## Great Janjua

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I had talked to a Turkish official in IDEAS 2019 and was told T 129 was tested by Army before its selection. Z 10 would also had been tested with T 129 or before. Looks like ATAKs not coming atleast recently so we are extensively checking Z 10s and trying to fine flaws or areas for improvement so that we could get helicopter according to our needs


If the chinese helicopter has issues it would need more time to fix than it would take to integrate the new Turkish engine so let's hope the Turks figure something out because going for the Chinese helicopter would be a disaster in my opinion mate

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## Phantom.

StormBreaker said:


> What is significant in upgraded Z-10 ?
> Engine ?


Yes Z10ME has a better engine plus some other stuff

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Eurocopter-AS-550C-3-Fennec/17

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## Dazzler

StormBreaker said:


> What is significant in upgraded Z-10 ?
> Engine ?



Pretty comprehsive upgrade it seems...

Up-powered turboshafts (WZ-9G?) offering up to 300HP more than previous versions

RWR, LWS, MAWS, IR jammer enhanced ecm suite

More ammo for the main gun

Particle masher and dust filters for engines

Low noise and vibration in the cockpit

Graphene based armor plates near cockpit offering up to 200 times better protection compared to steel

Top it all, the ME is also compatible with AESA MMW radar.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So does that mean T 129 is out?



Nope, 129 is a done deal, orders placed and batch production continues. The Zulus are not coming though.



LKJ86 said:


> In China?



Pakistan

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## TOPGUN

Dazzler said:


> Pretty comprehsive upgrade it seems...
> 
> Up-powered turboshafts (WZ-9G?) offering up to 300HP more than previous versions
> 
> RWR, LWS, MAWS, IR jammer enhanced ecm suite
> 
> More ammo for the main gun
> 
> Particle masher and dust filters for engines
> 
> Low noise and vibration in the cockpit
> 
> Graphene based armor plates near cockpit offering up to 200 times better protection compared to steel
> 
> Top it all, the ME is also compatible with AESA MMW radar.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, 129 is a done deal, orders placed and batch production continues. The Zulus are not coming though.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan



So are we going to be getting this birds as well from China ?

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## Haris Ali2140

Dazzler said:


> Pretty comprehsive upgrade it seems...
> 
> Up-powered turboshafts (WZ-9G?) offering up to 300HP more than previous versions
> 
> RWR, LWS, MAWS, IR jammer enhanced ecm suite
> 
> More ammo for the main gun
> 
> Particle masher and dust filters for engines
> 
> Low noise and vibration in the cockpit
> 
> Graphene based armor plates near cockpit offering up to 200 times better protection compared to steel
> 
> Top it all, the ME is also compatible with AESA MMW radar.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, 129 is a done deal, orders placed and batch production continues. The Zulus are not coming though.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan


What about AH-1Zs???


----------



## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> Pakistan


Z-10ME was found to be in China on January 6, 2020:

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## Bilal.

I wonder what a thicker version graphemes composite panels might be able to achieve on our tanks.

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## StormBreaker

Dazzler said:


> Pretty comprehsive upgrade it seems...
> 
> Up-powered turboshafts (WZ-9G?) offering up to 300HP more than previous versions
> 
> RWR, LWS, MAWS, IR jammer enhanced ecm suite
> 
> More ammo for the main gun
> 
> Particle masher and dust filters for engines
> 
> Low noise and vibration in the cockpit
> 
> Graphene based armor plates near cockpit offering up to 200 times better protection compared to steel
> 
> Top it all, the ME is also compatible with AESA MMW radar.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, 129 is a done deal, orders placed and batch production continues. The Zulus are not coming though.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan


The engine itself makes me drool 

Has this got anything to do with T-129 delays or that is a separate thing all together ?


----------



## Phantom.

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What about AH-1Zs???


he said AH1zs are not coming


----------



## StormBreaker

CHAOS BRINGER said:


> he said AH1zs are not coming


Let’s wait for some more time as per Sir @Khafee

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## Phantom.

StormBreaker said:


> Let’s wait for some more time as per Sir @Khafee


Did'nt Sir khafee leave?


----------



## StormBreaker

CHAOS BRINGER said:


> Did'nt Sir khafee leave?


Yea but he did mention about delivery of vipers


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

Dazzler said:


> Nope, 129 is a done deal, orders placed and batch production continues. The Zulus are not coming though.


So Pakistan can have 2 plateforms. One Z 10 and other T 129?

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## StormBreaker

TOPGUN said:


> So are we going to be getting this birds as well from China ?


I wish this comes with a license production.
Then only we can justify a third attack heli procurement else it seems quite confusing


----------



## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10ME was found to be in China on January 6, 2020:
> View attachment 599690



Just a few hours it takes to reach Pak from China, no worries

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## StormBreaker

Dazzler said:


> Just a few hours it takes to reach Pak from China, no worries


What is the range of these helis btw ? Z-10 to be specific


----------



## Ultima Thule

StormBreaker said:


> What is the range of these helis btw ? Z-10 to be specific


800 km (Estimate) according to Wikipedia

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## Dazzler

StormBreaker said:


> What is the range of these helis btw ? Z-10 to be specific



Up to 800km

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## Pakistani Fighter

Wow our Army is going to operate 4 plateforms. 1 AH1S, 2 Mi 35Ms, 3 T 129s and 4 Z 10MEs



Dazzler said:


> Up to 800km


Thats more than AH-64, T 129, Mi 35 and AH 1Z


----------



## Talon

LKJ86 said:


> In China?





Dazzler said:


> Pakistan


*In China *(confirmed) and that's what I was wondering that the previous trials were done in Pakistan,Why not this time as well? After all Z10 didn't perform well on high altitude terrain if I am not wrong



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So does that mean T 129 is out?


I don't think so

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## Dazzler

Hodor said:


> *In China *(confirmed) and that's what I was wondering that the previous trials were done in Pakistan,Why not this time as well? After all Z10 didn't perform well on high altitude terrain if I am not wrong
> 
> 
> I don't think so



Trials in China? Never heard of that


----------



## Talon

Dazzler said:


> Trials in China? Never heard of that


Well I am very much confident and sure about what I posted.You can confirm from whomever you *hear* news like this.

Though maybe they will come to Pakistan for further testing in future.

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## Dazzler

Hodor said:


> Well I am very much confident and sure about what I posted.You can confirm from whomever you *hear* news like this.
> 
> Though maybe they will come to Pakistan for further testing in future.



Thanks for sharing the news and pics. 

I can bet you have more insight into the matter but not sharing the full news.

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## CHI RULES

Great Janjua said:


> If the chinese helicopter has issues it would need more time to fix than it would take to integrate the new Turkish engine so let's hope the Turks figure something out because going for the Chinese helicopter would be a disaster in my opinion mate



As per available data an improved engine is already installed in Z10ME along with improvement in it's overall performance/protection. Meanwhile T129 engine shall at most be available for production up to 2025. Its not wise to delay the heli deal till that long.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Long term benefits from TAI will include an option to team with them to make the whole family in Pakistan small utility, medium(blackhawk/Puma equivalent) and attack(ATAK 2). 

But yeah in short term delay might be a bit long.


CHI RULES said:


> As per available data an improved engine is already installed in Z10ME along with improvement in it's overall performance/protection. Meanwhile T129 engine shall at most be available for production up to 2025. Its not wise to delay the heli deal till that long.

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## khail007

Dazzler said:


> Thanks for sharing the news and pics.
> 
> I can bet you have more insight into the matter but not sharing the full news.



Sir G, you are right. @Hodor information/source proven credible in the past.

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## Flight of falcon

Hang me if we don’t get vipers by April May

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## mingle

Flight of falcon said:


> Hang me if we don’t get vipers by April May


U @Khafee don't You??



Flight of falcon said:


> Hang me if we don’t get vipers by April May


Any news about more F16s?????


----------



## Flight of falcon

mingle said:


> U @Khafee don't You??
> 
> 
> Any news about more F16s?????




F16 is not my department..... don’t know anything

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## GriffinsRule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So Pakistan can have 2 plateforms. One Z 10 and other T 129?


Pakistan already has two platforms, AH-1F and Mi-35. Can't add two more. AH-1F replacement will have to be either T-129 or a mix of AH-1Z/T-129


----------



## Pakistan Space Agency

Flight of falcon said:


> Hang me if we don’t get vipers by April May



I really hope we don't see any AH-1Zs in Pakistan and the deal is totally cancelled.

These abuses cannot go on.

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## ali_raza

Flight of falcon said:


> F16 is not my department..... don’t know anything


i have news

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## Mumm-Ra

Flight of falcon said:


> Hang me if we don’t get vipers by April May



Lol...hanging is for the faint hearted. Why not try

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## Pakistani Fighter

ali_raza said:


> i have news


Tell



Flight of falcon said:


> Hang me if we don’t get vipers by April May


What will be their numbers? And would we be getting Hellfire II?


----------



## HRK

ali_raza said:


> i have news


positive or negative .... ???


----------



## CHI RULES

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Long term benefits from TAI will include an option to team with them to make the whole family in Pakistan small utility, medium(blackhawk/Puma equivalent) and attack(ATAK 2).
> 
> But yeah in short term delay might be a bit long.



Dear member no one can negate benefits of joining hands with TAI just like Milgem project but Pakistan is facing urgent challenges on eastern border. Considering Apache induction and huge MBT deployment by IA, PA is pushed to start immediate induction of attack helis as current fleet has passed it's prime.

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## Pakistani Fighter

HRK said:


> positive or negative .... ???


Can we upgrade our Cobras to AH 1S?


----------



## HRK

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Can we upgrade our Cobras to AH 1S?


we can not upgrade internally or from 3rd party any weapon system we have acquired from US without their permission.

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## ali_raza

HRK said:


> positive or negative .... ???


good and positive 
couple of months inshallah 
Used stuff on our way

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## mingle

ali_raza said:


> good and positive
> couple of months inshallah
> Used stuff on our way


Used mean F16s????



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Tell
> 
> 
> What will be their numbers? And would we be getting Hellfire II?


1000


----------



## ali_raza

mingle said:


> Used mean F16s????
> 
> 
> 1000


yea

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## syed_yusuf

ali_raza said:


> good and positive
> couple of months inshallah
> Used stuff on our way


no f-16 is coming to Pakistan


----------



## ali_raza

syed_yusuf said:


> no f-16 is coming to Pakistan


lets see who’s right 
3 months and will talk max 4

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## mingle

ali_raza said:


> lets see who’s right
> 3 months and will talk max 4


Best is Norwegian deal about F16s 28 of them full package and they want to sell one customer. If PAF gets them they will be best retire F7s and can use few for spares parts but I believe all are in good shape about two Sqd strength.


----------



## ali_raza

mingle said:


> Best is Norwegian deal about F16s 28 of them full package and they want to sell one customer. If PAF gets them they will be best retire F7s and can use few for spares parts but I believe all are in good shape about two Sqd strength.


could be an option 
but there r others too

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## Jinn Baba

ali_raza said:


> good and positive
> couple of months inshallah
> Used stuff on our way



More from Jordan?

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## mingle

Jinn Baba said:


> More from Jordan?


There are alot surplus F16 out there now US EU and Jordan

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## ali_raza

Jinn Baba said:


> More from Jordan?


no

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## Imran Khan

ali_raza said:


> good and positive
> couple of months inshallah
> Used stuff on our way


that is why we banned khafee . wo bhi jazbat se khelta tha . ab teri bari hai

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## ali_raza

Imran Khan said:


> that is why we banned khafee . wo bhi jazbat se khelta tha . ab teri bari hai


hahahaha ni bhai **** khbar ha

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## Imran Khan

ali_raza said:


> hahahaha ni bhai **** khbar ha


ALLAH kary ho . per ager kachi hai to tu koi dosra forum dekhna shuru ker de time pass ke liye

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## Haris Ali2140

ali_raza said:


> hahahaha ni bhai **** khbar ha


Yaar mein uss sari raat jaga that. Thread read karnay kay liye.

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## ali_raza

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Yaar mein uss sari raat jaga that. Thread read karnay kay liye.


it’s solid inshallah but used only

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## mingle

Best is Get surplus F16 s as many U can and get whole fleet V upgrade no need to buy new also buy good number of AIM120 D


----------



## khanasifm

No clue what in pipeline and not speculating but just FYI

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-...guard-f-16-receives-aesa-radar/136067.article

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## mingle

ali_raza said:


> it’s solid inshallah but used only


Any idea numbers????


----------



## ali_raza

mingle said:


> Any idea numbers????


one squadron

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## Imran Khan

mingle said:


> Any idea numbers????


new sqn will be raised sqn#420 zardari bhuttos

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## TsAr

ali_raza said:


> one squadron


Any news on the Cobras, I heard that they are also coming.


----------



## SD 10

Imran Khan said:


> new sqn will be raised sqn#420 zardari bhuttos


Invisible squadron just like bhutto jani

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## ali_raza

TsAr said:


> Any news on the Cobras, I heard that they are also coming.


all options open 
i repeat all options open 
its matter of how well we negotiate

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## fatman17

Aircraft Details

* Aircraft:* Mi-17-1V (upgrade by Pakistan)
* Manufacturer:*

* Registration:* 58602
* CN:* 586 M02

* Operator:* Pakistan Army Aviation

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## muhammadali233

fatman17 said:


> Aircraft Details
> 
> * Aircraft:* Mi-17-1V (upgrade by Pakistan)
> * Manufacturer:*
> 
> * Registration:* 58602
> * CN:* 586 M02
> 
> * Operator:* Pakistan Army Aviation
> 
> View attachment 600422


awful load of sensors on that

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## fatman17

Special Ops


muhammadali233 said:


> awful load of sensors on that

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## nomi007



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## Pakistani Fighter

mingle said:


> There are alot surplus F16 out there now US EU and Jordan


Norway too



ali_raza said:


> good and positive
> couple of months inshallah
> Used stuff on our way


I hope we upgrade all our F 16s to V standard and get more potent AAMs

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## Windjammer

*Hydra 70 Rockets of Pakistan Army Aviation Cobra Gunship.*

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## fatman17

*Pakistan extends Turkey’s deadline to deliver T129 helos*
By: Burak Ege Bekdil   January 14
Watch a T129 helicopter perform a dizzying series of moves at the 2019 Paris Air Show.

ANKARA, Turkey — Pakistan has extended the deadline for Turkish Aerospace Industries to deliver 30 T129 helicopter gunships on order, amid U.S. reluctance to grant Turkey technology export licenses.

With the American move now seriously jeopardizing the sale, the Turkish government has tasked Tusas Engine Industries, TAI’s sister company, with developing an indigenous engine for the T129.

“Pakistan has agreed to give us another year [to resolve the problem]. We hope we will be able to develop our indigenous engine soon to power the T129,” Ismail Demir, the head of Turkey’s top procurement agency, said Jan. 6. “After one year, Pakistan may be satisfied with the level of progress in our engine program, or the U.S. may grant us the export license.”

In 2018, TAI signed a $1.5 billion agreement to sell a batch of 30 T129 helos to Pakistan. However, the company needs to secure U.S. export licenses for any export deal with a third country. TAI produces the 5-ton attack helicopter, which is based on its predecessor, the A129 Mangusta.

The T129 is a twin-engine multirole attack helicopter produced under license from the Italian-British company AgustaWestland. It’s powered by two LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engines. Each engine can produce 1,014 kilowatts of output power. The T800-4A is an export version of the CTS800 engine. LHTEC, the maker of the engine, is a joint venture between the American firm Honeywell and the British company Rolls-Royce.

A procurement source told Defense News on Jan. 10 that Pakistan is also lobbying the U.S. to support the deal.

But U.S. diplomatic sources in Ankara said it’s unlikely Washington will issue the license given the cold nature of U.S.-Turkish defense procurement ties. The U.S. last year suspended Turkey’s membership in the multinational Joint Strike Fighter program in response to Turkey’s acquisition of the Russian-made S-400 air defense system.

But industry sources warn that any successful engine development program would take at least five to 10 years.

TAI recently delivered its 56th helicopter gunship to the Turkish military.


----------



## fatman17

January 18, 2020: The mid-2018 deal in which Pakistan agreed to buy 30 ATAK (T129) helicopter gunships from Turkey has been in danger for months. Pakistan has given Turkey one year to clear it up or the sale will be canceled. That deal is being held up because of disagreements between the U.S. and Turkey. In short, the U.S. has refused to approve the export license for the CTS800 engines that power the ATAK gunships. While substitute engines can be obtained from France, Poland or a few other countries, modifying the ATAK to handle a similar, but not identical, engine would delay getting the ATAK gunships operational. The helicopters, minus the engines, have already been delivered to Pakistan.

The T129 is a license built version of the Italian A-129. The Pakistan deal is partly driven by the 2018 Turkish purchase of 52 Pakistani MFI-395 Super Mushshak training aircraft. This was the largest export order to date for Pakistani built aircraft. Pakistan will pay about $1.5 billion for the T129s in a deal that will include training, spare parts and technical support. 

Gossip from Strategy Page, a devout anti-Pakistan blog.

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## fatman17

*Pakistan Army attack helicopter options*
Published in Show Daily 2018 - Day 3

By
Asian Military Review
-
December 7, 2018





 

 
_*The future of the Pakistan Army’s attack helicopter fleet has been uncertain in recent years. Its fleet of around 20+ Bell AH-1F/S Cobras has done a great job supporting the Army fighting militants on the ground in the western reaches of Pakistan.* _

The aircrews and maintenance personnel have performed miracles working with such old systems. However, these vintage attack helicopters do not boast the smart technologies the modern gunships needs to fight today’s wars. So it’s not surprising that a replacement helicopter has been on the top of the Pakistan Army Aviation’s (PAA) agenda for some time.

Unfortunately, things have not gone as smoothly as they could have done. Initially, an order for three AH-1Zs in August 2015 led to the aircraft being handed over to the PAA in the United States. By the end of 2017 they were being used to train PAA pilots. A subsequent deal in April 2016, saw the US Department of Defense (DoD) award a $170 million contract to Bell to produce another nine AH-1Z Viper helicopters which would have been built by September this year.

However when the US government cancelled $300 million in military aid in late August, it also included the three airworthy AH-1Zs and the remaining nine. The Vipers are now stored at Davis Monthan AFB, Arizona where the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group (AMARG) also known as the Boneyard, is located. In 1991, when the US Government embargoed the sale of 71 Lockheed Martin F-16C/Ds bound for the PAF along with three Pakistan Navy P-3Cs, it led to many of the F-16s and the Orions being flown into store at Davis Monthan AFB. It is unlikely the AH-1Zs will be delivered, despite unofficial comments coming from Bell that once the row blows over the AH-1Zs could find their way to Pakistan.

Following the stance of the US, there has been speculation that this could affect the sale of the Turkish Aerospace T129 ATK attack helicopter to the Pakistan Army. In late-May, Pakistan formally signed a deal for 30 T129s after years of discussions between the two parties. The helicopters are powered by the LHTEC800 turboshaft engine, produced by LHTEC a joint venture between Rolls Royce and Honeywell a US company, which could see the engines sanctioned.

However, a Turkish Aerospace official told _Asian Military Review_ at the Bahrain International Airshow in mid-November, “delivery of T129 attack helicopters to Pakistan depends upon the US export licensing process and we know it is underway. We received the US advisor’s opinion before discussions with Pakistan and after we signed the deal, we asked for the export license.” He added, “We see no problem. Pakistan is not getting a new capability as they were getting AH-1Zs anyway.”

The official went on to add that production of the aircraft was already underway. “The first ten T129s are being be diverted off the Turkish Army production line and could be delivered within 2-3 months of the US giving the go ahead.”

The Turkish Land Forces has 59 T129s on order, with 41 delivered so far. They have been heavily involved in anti-terror operations in south-eastern Turkey since being delivered back in 2013. They are supporting military operations in southeast Turkey, northern Iraq and northern Syria.

Back in May, 2015, Turkish Aerospace sent its factory T129, P6 to Pakistan where it was involved in a technical evaluation. As part of that procedure, the T129, spent ten days undergoing hot and high evaluation trials where it operated in temperatures of 52° C and was flown by a PAA pilot alongside a TAI test pilot. During the trials in the Hindu Kush in the Himalaya mountains, the T129 ATAK flew over 14,000 feet. A source said, “the helicopter is the best fit for all the Pakistan Army’s requirements.”

The T129s are expected to replace all the AH-1 Cobras currently housed at Multan, although the PAA does have a forward operating base at Peshawar. The aircraft are regularly flown up to heights well over its ceiling limits to keep out of the way of man portable air defence systems (MANPADS). According to crews who are flying them, they can hear the helicopter creaking caused by the thinning air pressure operating at heights the old airframes were never designed for.

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## fatman17

*Mi-35M – modernized legend*
By
Asian Military Review
-
March 19, 2019





 

 
*Mi-24 helicopters (in NATO classification called Hind, and in Russia nicknamed Crocodile of its fighting capability) were and are effectively operated in flashpoints all over the world where they have proven their indispensability as a reliable and universal weapon. Helicopter operators especially value Mi-24 for its powerful and high precision armament and reliable armor. *

Mi-24 type helicopters have unique experience of operation in high temperature conditions. They are reliable, easy to maintain, provided with an impressive weapon variety and also extraordinary suited for operation in extreme climate conditions. For example in Africa after a long monsoon rains period the helicopters frequently stored outside special hangars were easily started and sent for operations. Not all combat helicopters have as big safety factor.

People make legends about indestructibility of Russian “Flying tank” on African continent. Many compare its reliability and easy maintenance with famous Kalashnikov machine gun. For decades the fearful “Crocodiles” have been participating in all serious armed conflicts on African continent. This list includes: civil wars in Angola and Côte d’Ivoire, conflict between Ethiopia and Eritrea where the 24th’s were vastly applied by both parties, Second Congolese war in which Congo, Ruanda, Namibia and Zimbabwe have participated. So, in a word, the list of African states, which have their own fleet of 24th’s, is quite impressive.






The 24th’s have participated in practically all UN peacekeeping operations in Africa. The activity of Russian helicopters has received high international evaluation. The most noted parameters were their combat effectiveness and operational reliability. The task of combat helicopters was providing security for UN personnel by means of land convoys air escorting, performing search and rescue missions, patrol and reconnaissance flights, airmobile operations of UN military contingent. From 2000 to 2005 Russian military contingent, consisting of 100 pilots, operators, specialists of engineering staff and four Mi-24 was maintaining peace in Sierra-Leone and Republic of Chad. In the course of next years a small Russian air force helicopter squad was solving peacekeeping tasks in Sudan.

The analysis of information received from experience of 24th’s operation allowed to perform further improvement and modernization of this legendary helicopter. Despite a habit to operate 24th’s the African continent is now shifting for purchase of new Russian weapons, and in particular a deep modernization of Mi-24 into Mi-35M variant.

Mi-24th’s modification and successful implementation of this idea provided for an opportunity for a legendary aircraft to seep into the new millennium and find a decent place in modern combat aviation. All-weather Mi-35M helicopter is being manufactured serially at the Rostvertol plant (Southern Russia) which is a part of Russian Helicopters JSC since 2010.

The Mi-35M is an attack helicopter complex equipped with modern high-precision weapons of round-the-clock application.

The aircraft has been designed to destroy armored vehicles, provision of fire support to land forces. Mi-35M has several application versions: attack, troop carrier, ambulance and transport. This makes it capable to effectively perform a big scope of tasks. As a troop carrier, it can accommodate up to 8 fully armed paratroopers in the cargo cabin. As an ambulance helicopter, it can provide for transportation of 2 stretcher cases and 2 seated wounded casualties accompanied by one medical attendant. During cargo transportation, Mi-35M can transport up to 1500 kg inside the cargo compartment or 2400 kg on external sling.

Technologies used on the new-generation Mi-28N helicopter were incorporated in the design and manufacture of Mi-35M helicopter. As a result, the Mi-35M has received a new rotor system with composite-material blades. The advanced blade profile improves the helicopter performance and the composite materials provide for the longer life and higher combat survivability. X-shaped tail rotor provides the helicopter with higher controllability together with lower noise level. Mi-35M has a shortened wing equipped with a built-in cargo hoist and new store racks.

*Helicopter combat survivability and crew protection are provided due to steel plates armouring of: *


Cockpit.
Accessory drive gear box.
Oil tanks of engines.
Main gear box section.
Hydraulic units.
Partition between Pilot’s and Operator’s compartment.
Pilot seat: armoured backrest and armoured headrest.
Windshields.
The undisputable advantage of the Mi-35M is its round-the-clock combat application. The helicopter is equipped with a modern navigation complex and electronic indication with multi-functional colored displays, surveillance-sight system. Mi-35M helicopter Lights system is adopted for application of night vision goggles by the crew.

Mi-35M is equipped with a modern armament complex which includes non-removable flexible gun installation with two barreled 23mm gun, guided missile armament (anti tank missile complex with Shturm and Ataka missiles), unguided rocket armament (B8V20-A pods carrying 80 mm C-8 type airborne rockets), suspended gun armament (up to two UP-23-250 containers with 23mm guns).






*Optional equipment can be installed on the helicopter depending on missions and operational conditions:*


Upgraded ОPS-24N-1L surveillance-sighting system
Аtаkа anti-tank guided missiles with laser guidance system;
Strelets complex with Igla-S air-to-air missiles
Equipment for air routes and instrument landing system.
S-13 unguided rockets
President-S countermeasure system.
The first purchaser of this helicopter was Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. Later on Mi-35M were purchased by Brazil. Combat helicopters are used in Latin America to patrol the air space and provide an air support in fighting the border intruders. Apart from Latin America, Mi-35Ms are supplied to the Middle East countries, CIS and Russian MOD. Many other countries show their interest in these aircraft

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> *Mi-35M – modernized legend*
> By
> Asian Military Review
> -
> March 19, 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mi-24 helicopters (in NATO classification called Hind, and in Russia nicknamed Crocodile of its fighting capability) were and are effectively operated in flashpoints all over the world where they have proven their indispensability as a reliable and universal weapon. Helicopter operators especially value Mi-24 for its powerful and high precision armament and reliable armor. *
> 
> Mi-24 type helicopters have unique experience of operation in high temperature conditions. They are reliable, easy to maintain, provided with an impressive weapon variety and also extraordinary suited for operation in extreme climate conditions. For example in Africa after a long monsoon rains period the helicopters frequently stored outside special hangars were easily started and sent for operations. Not all combat helicopters have as big safety factor.
> 
> People make legends about indestructibility of Russian “Flying tank” on African continent. Many compare its reliability and easy maintenance with famous Kalashnikov machine gun. For decades the fearful “Crocodiles” have been participating in all serious armed conflicts on African continent. This list includes: civil wars in Angola and Côte d’Ivoire, conflict between Ethiopia and Eritrea where the 24th’s were vastly applied by both parties, Second Congolese war in which Congo, Ruanda, Namibia and Zimbabwe have participated. So, in a word, the list of African states, which have their own fleet of 24th’s, is quite impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 24th’s have participated in practically all UN peacekeeping operations in Africa. The activity of Russian helicopters has received high international evaluation. The most noted parameters were their combat effectiveness and operational reliability. The task of combat helicopters was providing security for UN personnel by means of land convoys air escorting, performing search and rescue missions, patrol and reconnaissance flights, airmobile operations of UN military contingent. From 2000 to 2005 Russian military contingent, consisting of 100 pilots, operators, specialists of engineering staff and four Mi-24 was maintaining peace in Sierra-Leone and Republic of Chad. In the course of next years a small Russian air force helicopter squad was solving peacekeeping tasks in Sudan.
> 
> The analysis of information received from experience of 24th’s operation allowed to perform further improvement and modernization of this legendary helicopter. Despite a habit to operate 24th’s the African continent is now shifting for purchase of new Russian weapons, and in particular a deep modernization of Mi-24 into Mi-35M variant.
> 
> Mi-24th’s modification and successful implementation of this idea provided for an opportunity for a legendary aircraft to seep into the new millennium and find a decent place in modern combat aviation. All-weather Mi-35M helicopter is being manufactured serially at the Rostvertol plant (Southern Russia) which is a part of Russian Helicopters JSC since 2010.
> 
> The Mi-35M is an attack helicopter complex equipped with modern high-precision weapons of round-the-clock application.
> 
> The aircraft has been designed to destroy armored vehicles, provision of fire support to land forces. Mi-35M has several application versions: attack, troop carrier, ambulance and transport. This makes it capable to effectively perform a big scope of tasks. As a troop carrier, it can accommodate up to 8 fully armed paratroopers in the cargo cabin. As an ambulance helicopter, it can provide for transportation of 2 stretcher cases and 2 seated wounded casualties accompanied by one medical attendant. During cargo transportation, Mi-35M can transport up to 1500 kg inside the cargo compartment or 2400 kg on external sling.
> 
> Technologies used on the new-generation Mi-28N helicopter were incorporated in the design and manufacture of Mi-35M helicopter. As a result, the Mi-35M has received a new rotor system with composite-material blades. The advanced blade profile improves the helicopter performance and the composite materials provide for the longer life and higher combat survivability. X-shaped tail rotor provides the helicopter with higher controllability together with lower noise level. Mi-35M has a shortened wing equipped with a built-in cargo hoist and new store racks.
> 
> *Helicopter combat survivability and crew protection are provided due to steel plates armouring of: *
> 
> 
> Cockpit.
> Accessory drive gear box.
> Oil tanks of engines.
> Main gear box section.
> Hydraulic units.
> Partition between Pilot’s and Operator’s compartment.
> Pilot seat: armoured backrest and armoured headrest.
> Windshields.
> The undisputable advantage of the Mi-35M is its round-the-clock combat application. The helicopter is equipped with a modern navigation complex and electronic indication with multi-functional colored displays, surveillance-sight system. Mi-35M helicopter Lights system is adopted for application of night vision goggles by the crew.
> 
> Mi-35M is equipped with a modern armament complex which includes non-removable flexible gun installation with two barreled 23mm gun, guided missile armament (anti tank missile complex with Shturm and Ataka missiles), unguided rocket armament (B8V20-A pods carrying 80 mm C-8 type airborne rockets), suspended gun armament (up to two UP-23-250 containers with 23mm guns).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Optional equipment can be installed on the helicopter depending on missions and operational conditions:*
> 
> 
> Upgraded ОPS-24N-1L surveillance-sighting system
> Аtаkа anti-tank guided missiles with laser guidance system;
> Strelets complex with Igla-S air-to-air missiles
> Equipment for air routes and instrument landing system.
> S-13 unguided rockets
> President-S countermeasure system.
> The first purchaser of this helicopter was Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. Later on Mi-35M were purchased by Brazil. Combat helicopters are used in Latin America to patrol the air space and provide an air support in fighting the border intruders. Apart from Latin America, Mi-35Ms are supplied to the Middle East countries, CIS and Russian MOD. Many other countries show their interest in these aircraft


PAA looking more for these birds??


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## Ahmet Pasha

I would bet on that since it also has good utility for troop and cargo on a limited level tho.


mingle said:


> PAA looking more for these birds??

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## fatman17

Yes, the plan is for a sqn of 20 helos. Next batch of 4 to be delivered end 2020.


mingle said:


> PAA looking more for these birds??

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Yes, the plan is for a sqn of 20 helos. Next batch of 4 to be delivered end 2020.


Why PAA didn't evaluate Mi28 and KA 52???


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## Ahmet Pasha

That is the several million dollar question.
PAA atleast should have gotten Mi28 to rival Indian AH64s. It seems they have their eyes set on Turkish Heavy Helo coming up.

Ka52 is an absolute monster of a helicopter true Russian Brute Force.


mingle said:


> Why PAA didn't evaluate Mi28 and KA 52???

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## mingle

Ahmet Pasha said:


> That is the several million dollar question.
> PAA atleast should have gotten Mi28. It seems they have their eyes set on Turkish Heavy Helo coming up.
> 
> Ka52 is an absolute monster of a helicopter true Russian Brute Force.


Egypt has Ka 51 they investing heavy in Russian products along French. I mean make Ur attack Heli fleet all Russian with less hassle and more firepower


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## fatman17

They did but opted for the Mi35M because of its multirole capabilities like transport and casevac


mingle said:


> Why PAA didn't evaluate Mi28 and KA 52???

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> They did but opted for the Mi35M because of its multirole capabilities like transport and casevac


I mean having all Russian platforms will be good rather having trouble with US and turkish platforms


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## khanasifm

Mi-35 has commonality with mi-171 transmission, engine etc so much cheaper compared to others options as infrastructure exists in country 

Paa has setup overhaul capacity

Lastly mi-35 is unique in its abilities of medi-vac plus attack and attack and Transport 

It’s now cover Baluchistan vast area 

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mi-35m-hind-e/

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## Imran Khan

khanasifm said:


> Mi-35 has commonality with mi-171 transmission, engine etc so much cheaper compared to others options as infrastructure exists in country
> 
> Paa has setup overhaul capacity
> 
> Lastly mi-35 is unique in its abilities of medi-vac plus attack and attack and Transport
> 
> It’s now cover Baluchistan vast area
> 
> https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mi-35m-hind-e/


Paa better got some 20 of them for stop gap

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Until the US eases off CAATSA, I don't think Pakistan will buy any major Russian weaponry. It's not just an issue of getting spare parts et. al for existing American equipment (F-16s, C-130s, AN/TPS-77, etc), but we also maintain a trade surplus with the US. Dealing with a Russia that barely even puts one toe in the water? Not worth it.

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## Pakistani Fighter

mingle said:


> Why PAA didn't evaluate Mi28 and KA 52???


I think Mi28N was evaluated as there used to be news years back. They may have been evaluated along with T129s and Z10s



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Until the US eases off CAATSA, I don't think Pakistan will buy any major Russian weaponry. It's not just an issue of getting spare parts et. al for existing American equipment (F-16s, C-130s, AN/TPS-77, etc), but we also maintain a trade surplus with the US. Dealing with a Russia that barely even puts one toe in the water? Not worth it.


But India is also getting /have gotten systems like S400s, surplus Mig29s, destroyers, frigates, subs from Russia and is getting other systems from US.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I think Mi28N was evaluated as there used to be news years back. They may have been evaluated along with T129s and Z10s
> 
> 
> But India is also getting /have gotten systems like S400s, surplus Mig29s, destroyers, frigates, subs from Russia and is getting other systems from US.


Yea, but the US treats Pakistan very differently than it does India. We can't use India as the benchmark, not unless we suddenly become the next economic miracle or 'Germany of Asia.' Not saying we should beg, but we must take a lot of care when it comes to the sensitivities of countries that keep our economy up. Moreover, the Russians have not bought into ties with us, they're flaky, and I'd rather not jeopardize our trade surplus with the US for that...

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## fatman17

The Mi35M purchased by Pakistan were actually older Mi24s which were modernised, thus it took a while for the actual induction. Further examples will also follow the same pattern. Russian supply chain is famous for its slow pace.

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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> older Mi24s


So they have a less life on their airframe?


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## fatman17

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So they have a less life on their airframe?


Don't exactly know what "modernised " included.


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## Zephyrus

fatman17 said:


> The Mi35M purchased by Pakistan were actually older Mi24s which were modernised, thus it took a while for the actual induction. Further examples will also follow the same pattern. Russian supply chain is famous for its slow pace.


I'm not sure if that is true, the 24 and 35s are inherently different airframes sir, the 35ms don't have retractable landing gears and other such quirks.

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## nomi007




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## Zephyrus

Pakistan Army Aviation Mi17V5 feat Awaam


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## hassan1



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## Signalian

Zephyrus said:


> Pakistan Army Aviation Mi17V5 feat Awaam
> View attachment 604396


Focus on Heli, Mate.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Zephyrus said:


> Pakistan Army Aviation Mi17V5 feat Awaam
> View attachment 604396


We have Mi17V5?


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## Zephyrus

Signalian said:


> Focus on Heli, Mate.


That was the intention 
Here's one of the chopper


Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> We have Mi17V5?


Yes we do

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## python-000

Kuch na hona sa kuch hona bahter ha plz understand...

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## Zephyrus

Pakistan Army Aviation's dinosaurs


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## Viper27

Zephyrus said:


> Pakistan Army Aviation's dinosaurs
> View attachment 604469



I think these are now in use with the interior ministry.

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## Path-Finder

has anyone seen the Finnish birds instagram? talk about superwoman.

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## fatman17

Industry

Singapore Airshow 2020: Turkish Aerospace looks to secure T129 export approvals

Jon Grevatt, Singapore - Jane's Defence Weekly

11 February 2020


TAI is aiming to secure US approval to export its T129 ATAK multirole combat helicopter (pictured) to Pakistan. Source: TAI

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is confident that it will soon acquire the necessary approvals from the United States to support the sale of the company's T129 ATAK multirole combat helicopter to Pakistan.

A company spokesperson told Jane's at the Singapore Airshow on 11 February that the required permits could be approved within the next two months given what he said was "increasingly good communication" between the Turkish and US governments.

In July 2018 Turkey confirmed that it had signed an agreement with the government of Pakistan to supply 30 T129 helicopters, which are powered by US-made LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft engines, for the Pakistan Army's aviation corps.

The deal, believed to be worth about USD1.5 billion, was touted by the Presidency of the Republic of Turkey Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSB) as "the largest single export in the history of the Turkish defence industry".

However, after the contract was signed diplomatic relations between the US and Turkey deteriorated following Ankara's decision to procure the S-400 Triumf air-defence system from Russia. The TAI spokesperson said that diplomatic relations between the US and Turkey are now improving and that the delay in supplying the T129 platforms will soon be resolved.

In addition to Pakistan, the TAI spokesperson said that the company is bidding for a requirement for attack helicopters in the Philippines. In 2017 the Philippine Department of National Defense (DND) said it would procure up to 24 attack helicopters for the Philippine Air Force (PAF) before the end of 2022. The procurement is likely to require loans from suppliers.

In November 2018 the DND confirmed to Jane's that a procurement team set up by the PAF had identified the T129 platform to fulfill its attack helicopter capability demands.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Industry
> 
> Singapore Airshow 2020: Turkish Aerospace looks to secure T129 export approvals
> 
> Jon Grevatt, Singapore - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 11 February 2020
> 
> 
> TAI is aiming to secure US approval to export its T129 ATAK multirole combat helicopter (pictured) to Pakistan. Source: TAI
> 
> Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is confident that it will soon acquire the necessary approvals from the United States to support the sale of the company's T129 ATAK multirole combat helicopter to Pakistan.
> 
> A company spokesperson told Jane's at the Singapore Airshow on 11 February that the required permits could be approved within the next two months given what he said was "increasingly good communication" between the Turkish and US governments.
> 
> In July 2018 Turkey confirmed that it had signed an agreement with the government of Pakistan to supply 30 T129 helicopters, which are powered by US-made LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft engines, for the Pakistan Army's aviation corps.
> 
> The deal, believed to be worth about USD1.5 billion, was touted by the Presidency of the Republic of Turkey Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSB) as "the largest single export in the history of the Turkish defence industry".
> 
> However, after the contract was signed diplomatic relations between the US and Turkey deteriorated following Ankara's decision to procure the S-400 Triumf air-defence system from Russia. The TAI spokesperson said that diplomatic relations between the US and Turkey are now improving and that the delay in supplying the T129 platforms will soon be resolved.
> 
> In addition to Pakistan, the TAI spokesperson said that the company is bidding for a requirement for attack helicopters in the Philippines. In 2017 the Philippine Department of National Defense (DND) said it would procure up to 24 attack helicopters for the Philippine Air Force (PAF) before the end of 2022. The procurement is likely to require loans from suppliers.
> 
> In November 2018 the DND confirmed to Jane's that a procurement team set up by the PAF had identified the T129 platform to fulfill its attack helicopter capability demands.
> 
> View attachment 605055


Looks like deal will go through with US engines IA great news.i Beleive vipers are also on the way home soon.PAA if engine approves should get at least 30 more copies along more cobras.

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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> Industry
> 
> Singapore Airshow 2020: Turkish Aerospace looks to secure T129 export approvals
> 
> Jon Grevatt, Singapore - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 11 February 2020
> 
> 
> TAI is aiming to secure US approval to export its T129 ATAK multirole combat helicopter (pictured) to Pakistan. Source: TAI
> 
> Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is confident that it will soon acquire the necessary approvals from the United States to support the sale of the company's T129 ATAK multirole combat helicopter to Pakistan.
> 
> A company spokesperson told Jane's at the Singapore Airshow on 11 February that the required permits could be approved within the next two months given what he said was "increasingly good communication" between the Turkish and US governments.
> 
> In July 2018 Turkey confirmed that it had signed an agreement with the government of Pakistan to supply 30 T129 helicopters, which are powered by US-made LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft engines, for the Pakistan Army's aviation corps.
> 
> The deal, believed to be worth about USD1.5 billion, was touted by the Presidency of the Republic of Turkey Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSB) as "the largest single export in the history of the Turkish defence industry".
> 
> However, after the contract was signed diplomatic relations between the US and Turkey deteriorated following Ankara's decision to procure the S-400 Triumf air-defence system from Russia. The TAI spokesperson said that diplomatic relations between the US and Turkey are now improving and that the delay in supplying the T129 platforms will soon be resolved.
> 
> In addition to Pakistan, the TAI spokesperson said that the company is bidding for a requirement for attack helicopters in the Philippines. In 2017 the Philippine Department of National Defense (DND) said it would procure up to 24 attack helicopters for the Philippine Air Force (PAF) before the end of 2022. The procurement is likely to require loans from suppliers.
> 
> In November 2018 the DND confirmed to Jane's that a procurement team set up by the PAF had identified the T129 platform to fulfill its attack helicopter capability demands.
> 
> View attachment 605055


The extension given to TAI seems to be coming fruitful

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## Shabi1

Signalian said:


> The extension given to TAI seems to be coming fruitful


Its do or die for TAI if they want more T-129 orders. I hope a work around will be found.

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## Cool_Soldier

I am hoping from the day first that some way out will come eventually.
Inshaa Allah issue will be resolved.

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## araz

mingle said:


> Looks like deal will go through with US engines IA great news.i Beleive vipers are also on the way home soon.PAA if engine approves should get at least 30 more copies along more cobras.


Knowing the US they might just embargo the engines so it kills off the Turkish aviation industry's reputation. It kills off any competition for a product that they supply. At the end of the day it is a question of what they stand to gain and lose by scuppering the deal.
A

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Industry
> 
> Singapore Airshow 2020: Turkish Aerospace looks to secure T129 export approvals
> 
> Jon Grevatt, Singapore - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 11 February 2020
> 
> 
> TAI is aiming to secure US approval to export its T129 ATAK multirole combat helicopter (pictured) to Pakistan. Source: TAI
> 
> Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is confident that it will soon acquire the necessary approvals from the United States to support the sale of the company's T129 ATAK multirole combat helicopter to Pakistan.
> 
> A company spokesperson told Jane's at the Singapore Airshow on 11 February that the required permits could be approved within the next two months given what he said was "increasingly good communication" between the Turkish and US governments.
> 
> In July 2018 Turkey confirmed that it had signed an agreement with the government of Pakistan to supply 30 T129 helicopters, which are powered by US-made LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft engines, for the Pakistan Army's aviation corps.
> 
> The deal, believed to be worth about USD1.5 billion, was touted by the Presidency of the Republic of Turkey Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSB) as "the largest single export in the history of the Turkish defence industry".
> 
> However, after the contract was signed diplomatic relations between the US and Turkey deteriorated following Ankara's decision to procure the S-400 Triumf air-defence system from Russia. The TAI spokesperson said that diplomatic relations between the US and Turkey are now improving and that the delay in supplying the T129 platforms will soon be resolved.
> 
> In addition to Pakistan, the TAI spokesperson said that the company is bidding for a requirement for attack helicopters in the Philippines. In 2017 the Philippine Department of National Defense (DND) said it would procure up to 24 attack helicopters for the Philippine Air Force (PAF) before the end of 2022. The procurement is likely to require loans from suppliers.
> 
> In November 2018 the DND confirmed to Jane's that a procurement team set up by the PAF had identified the T129 platform to fulfill its attack helicopter capability demands.
> 
> View attachment 605055



It’s not just initial release but sustainment for the life of weapons system is in question ??? 

So the question is what is the guarantee for the future ??


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## Zephyrus

Pakistan Army Aviation's Fennecs

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## GriffinsRule

While this article mentions PAF, it pertains just as much to PA and its aviation assets when serving in the UN missions in Africa and elsewhere. Pakistanis always are at the forefront of professionalism and valor. Here is an excrept from AFM's article on Africa's war in Central African Republic (CAR) by Al J Venter. Enjoy






There are several dozen nations involved in the CAR alone, making for an uneven mix of both motivation and commitment in a war that has claimed almost 100 UN lives since the Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in the Central African Republic (MINUSCA) was launched in 2014.

A pair of Mi-24 Hind helicopters came from the Senegalese Air Force, while two Mi-17 Hips were Pakistani. But, as I was to discover, there are serious differences of opinion among senior members of ground elements deployed as to their efficacy.

A constant criticism made by Portuguese troops in the field is that when contact with hostile elements is made, the Senegalese Hinds – whose single most important purpose in the war (apart from offering additional sets of eyes from on-high) is to provide air support for UN forces fighting on the ground – invariably hover over the action at about 4,000ft (1,219m) above ground level. “This is an impossible situation in terrain more often than not densely foliaged jungle,” said one senior observer.

As that officer, who had solid airborne and support experience in both Afghanistan and Mali, told AFM: “At that kind of altitude they can see nothing of what is going on below, and certainly they are not able to distinguish friend from foe.”

More disturbing, he intimated, those aircrews have consistently ignored entreaties to operate at lower, more practical levels. He explained that it was not a recent problem, but had been going on from the start of Senegalese involvement in MINUSCA.

*In contrast, Pakistan Air Force personnel with their Mi-17s are a good deal more professional in operational roles. The commander of the Hip involved in last September’s onslaught was a full colonel and had seen good action in several theatres of military activity.*

*When one of the Senegalese Mi-24s was lost during the author’s CAR visit, his Hip was then tasked to take over responsibility for air cover during the course of the rest of the nine-day operation in the northeast and went on to make an extremely valuable counterinsurgent contribution, he declared. “Their side-gunners with their GPMGs [general purpose machine guns] consistently kept enemy heads down… most times they were firing at the enemy from heights sometimes barely above the tallest forest,” the officer explained.*

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## Sunny4pak

*MI-35M | Pak Army Aviation*


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## JPMM

GriffinsRule said:


> While this article mentions PAF, it pertains just as much to PA and its aviation assets when serving in the UN missions in Africa and elsewhere. Pakistanis always are at the forefront of professionalism and valor. Here is an excrept from AFM's article on Africa's war in Central African Republic (CAR) by Al J Venter. Enjoy
> 
> View attachment 607424
> 
> 
> There are several dozen nations involved in the CAR alone, making for an uneven mix of both motivation and commitment in a war that has claimed almost 100 UN lives since the Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in the Central African Republic (MINUSCA) was launched in 2014.
> 
> A pair of Mi-24 Hind helicopters came from the Senegalese Air Force, while two Mi-17 Hips were Pakistani. But, as I was to discover, there are serious differences of opinion among senior members of ground elements deployed as to their efficacy.
> 
> A constant criticism made by Portuguese troops in the field is that when contact with hostile elements is made, the Senegalese Hinds – whose single most important purpose in the war (apart from offering additional sets of eyes from on-high) is to provide air support for UN forces fighting on the ground – invariably hover over the action at about 4,000ft (1,219m) above ground level. “This is an impossible situation in terrain more often than not densely foliaged jungle,” said one senior observer.
> 
> As that officer, who had solid airborne and support experience in both Afghanistan and Mali, told AFM: “At that kind of altitude they can see nothing of what is going on below, and certainly they are not able to distinguish friend from foe.”
> 
> More disturbing, he intimated, those aircrews have consistently ignored entreaties to operate at lower, more practical levels. He explained that it was not a recent problem, but had been going on from the start of Senegalese involvement in MINUSCA.
> 
> *In contrast, Pakistan Air Force personnel with their Mi-17s are a good deal more professional in operational roles. The commander of the Hip involved in last September’s onslaught was a full colonel and had seen good action in several theatres of military activity.*
> 
> *When one of the Senegalese Mi-24s was lost during the author’s CAR visit, his Hip was then tasked to take over responsibility for air cover during the course of the rest of the nine-day operation in the northeast and went on to make an extremely valuable counterinsurgent contribution, he declared. “Their side-gunners with their GPMGs [general purpose machine guns] consistently kept enemy heads down… most times they were firing at the enemy from heights sometimes barely above the tallest forest,” the officer explained.*



Yes, we are firing directly from your Mi-17 doors with LMGs and Sniper rifles. They have adapted a "bar" on the door were we lay the weapons. But there are allready actions were your choppers were hit and had to came back to base.

Thanks

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## JPMM

Minute 3.55 Pak Heli





Minute 0.41 door mounted MGs

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## Signalian

Sunny4pak said:


> *MI-35M | Pak Army Aviation*


Flying IFV/APC.

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## Sunny4pak

Signalian said:


> Flying IFV/APC.


Hmmmmm, will include this too;
Dear, it is known to be a flying tank not designated by me though.


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## nomi007




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## BHarwana

Z-10 are coming

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## mingle

BHarwana said:


> Z-10 are coming


How many units?? Or for trials???

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## BHarwana

mingle said:


> How many units?? Or for trials???


Don't know full details but we are again interested in them.

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## mingle

BHarwana said:


> Don't know full details but we are again interested in them.


Yeh I read that article its ME varient with new updates but I am sure US will release both engine for T129 and Zulus to Pak but Pak should induct ME too as agument with other two varients a strong 100plus Gunship fleet would be nice

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## BHarwana

mingle said:


> Yeh I read that article its ME varient with new updates but I am sure US will release both engine for T129 and Zulus to Pak but Pak should induct ME too as agument with other two varients a strong 100plus Gunship fleet would be nice


If you think T-129 are not coming or it depends on USA then you are wrong. They are also coming but not in US engines. 

The interest in Z-10ME came from a different reason.

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## Pandora

BHarwana said:


> If you think T-129 are not coming or it depends on USA then you are wrong. They are also coming but not in US engines.
> 
> The interest in Z-10ME came from a different reason.



Change of core part like engine will mean revaluation of entire platform and tedious year long trial under different weather and climate conditions. US Engine was the sole reason for better performance of T129 during trials otherwise Z1O offered same capabilities minus engine performance. Although i think Americans might reinstate our defense procurements after peace deal with taliban so waiting another year or so will be worth it. Meanwhile Z10ME will undergo trail just in case.

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## fatman17

Air Platforms
*Pakistan to buy Chinese attack helicopters if Turkey and US fail to deliver*
*Gareth Jennings, London* - Jane's Defence Weekly
27 February 2020








The Chinese-built Z-10 attack helicopter could be procured by Pakistan should its first two preferences of the AH-1Z and T-129 not be delivered. Source: Via CCTV
Pakistan will procure the Chinese-built Z-10 attack helicopter if Turkey and the United States fail to deliver on their orders of the T-129 and AH-1Z respectively, a senior offer said on 26 February.

Speaking at the IQPC International Military Helicopter conference in London, the commander of Pakistan's Army Aviation, Major General Syed Najeeb Ahmed, said that the Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) Z-10ME "remains an option" if the Turkish Aerospace T-129 and Bell AH-1Z Viper prove to be unobtainable for different reasons.

The Pakistan Army has a pressing need to replace its 32 ageing Bell AH-1 Cobra helicopters that have been in service for more than 30 years, with Gen Ahmed's predecessor, Major General Nasir D Shah, telling _Jane's_ and other defence media in January 2018, "The AH-1 helicopters have provided effective close support for our ground forces engaged in counterinsurgency [COIN] operations, but they cannot be employed effectively in high-altitude operations above 8,000 ft."

In the near-term, the army partially offset these limitations with the four Mil Mi-35s that it ordered from Russian some years ago, and which were delivered to the country in late 2017. Further to the Mi-35s, it evaluated the AH-1Z, T-129, and the Z-10 attack helicopters.

In January 2016 it was announced that Bell had been awarded a contract for 12 AH-1Zs, and in April 2017 _Jane's_ reported that the first three of 12 would be delivered in mid‐2017, with a second order to follow. However, the aircraft were yet to be delivered, and while there has been no official statement concerning reasons for delay it is understood to result from the current strained Pakistan-US relations.


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## fatman17

Pakistan considers Chinese attack helicopters on back of stalled AH-1Z, T-129 deals.

https://t.co/wDJC1XOXES

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## nomi007

I dont think that PN is not satisfied with z-9 helos. chinese helos are not so good.


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## khanasifm

https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2018/11/china-eyes-second-attack-helicopter-opportunity/


https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/caic-z-10-attack-helicopter/

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## CHI RULES

nomi007 said:


> I dont think that PN is not satisfied with z-9 helos. chinese helos are not so good.


Z9 belongs to old era meanwhile the Z10ME is newer version tailor made as per Pak requirements. The missile options are also similar to hellfire .

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## mingle

CHI RULES said:


> Z9 belongs to old era meanwhile the Z10ME is newer version tailor made as per Pak requirements. The missile options are also similar to hellfire .


We can integrate Turkish UMTAS as well


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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm

Good info

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> Good info


Quite few things even we don't know on this forum.


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## fatman17

It was reported in February 2020 that Pakistani Army has shown a serious interest in *Z-10ME* after jeopardization of the Turkish T129 attack helicopter deal. A recent video (September 2018) suggested that some *Z-10*s and *Z-10H*s (S/N LH9621xx, 9531xx, 9631xx, 9511xx) have been further upgraded. It features external ceramic armor plates outside the forward and back cockpits as well as the engine compartment to provide a better protection against small AAA fire. MAWS sensors were installed on both sides of the nose. The gunner also wears the new HMD. The latest image (February 2020) indicated some have redesigned engine exhausts facing upward similar to those onboard *Z-10ME* in order to reduce IR signature.

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## Sunny4pak

mingle said:


> Quite few things even we don't know on this forum.



Thank you Sir for these words, Most of the PDF Members considered me as a usual/typical Pakistani youtuber relying on sensationalism & false info.

Thanks to you, Sir @Irfan Baloch @Rafi @khanasifm @graphican @Imran Khan for their encouragement & guidance of Sir Irfan Baloch above them all.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> It was reported in February 2020 that Pakistani Army has shown a serious interest in *Z-10ME* after jeopardization of the Turkish T129 attack helicopter deal. A recent video (September 2018) suggested that some *Z-10*s and *Z-10H*s (S/N LH9621xx, 9531xx, 9631xx, 9511xx) have been further upgraded. It features external ceramic armor plates outside the forward and back cockpits as well as the engine compartment to provide a better protection against small AAA fire. MAWS sensors were installed on both sides of the nose. The gunner also wears the new HMD. The latest image (February 2020) indicated some have redesigned engine exhausts facing upward similar to those onboard *Z-10ME* in order to reduce IR signature.

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## Sunny4pak

khanasifm said:


> Good info


Thank you Sir. I am glad that you shared my video.
Regards,

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## fatman17

BHarwana said:


> If you think T-129 are not coming or it depends on USA then you are wrong. They are also coming but not in US engines.
> 
> The interest in Z-10ME came from a different reason.



the Z10ME is not a weapon of choice, but a weapon of last resort.

1. AH1Z
2. T129
3. Z10ME

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## Sunny4pak

fatman17 said:


> It was reported in February 2020 that Pakistani Army has shown a serious interest in *Z-10ME* after jeopardization of the Turkish T129 attack helicopter deal. A recent video (September 2018) suggested that some *Z-10*s and *Z-10H*s (S/N LH9621xx, 9531xx, 9631xx, 9511xx) have been further upgraded. It features external ceramic armor plates outside the forward and back cockpits as well as the engine compartment to provide a better protection against small AAA fire. MAWS sensors were installed on both sides of the nose. The gunner also wears the new HMD. The latest image (February 2020) indicated some have redesigned engine exhausts facing upward similar to those onboard *Z-10ME* in order to reduce IR signature.



Yes Sir its true & I have covered most of these upgrades in my recent video below.







BHarwana said:


> *If you think T-129 are not coming or it depends on USA then you are wrong. They are also coming but not in US engines.
> 
> The interest in Z-10ME came from a different reason*.


True sir i am agreed with you as Z10ME's are not coming on the cost of T129 or AH1Z nor as a replacement options for both. It would be addition to PA Heli Inventory considering the updgrades & weapon system that Z10ME is offering alongwith MMW Radar in near future.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> the Z10ME is not a weapon of choice, but a weapon of last resort.
> 
> 1. AH1Z
> 2. T129
> 3. Z10ME


Chance are very good now that we will get all 3

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Chance are very good now that we will get all 3



option1
AH1Z & T129 with AH1S/F in long-term storage. 75%

option 2
T129 & Z10ME with AH1S/F in long-term storage. 100%

option 3
AH1Z, T129 & Z10ME with AH1S/F retired. 50%

there is a option 4 (worst case scenario)

Z10ME & AH1S/F

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> option1
> AH1Z & T129 with AH1S/F in long-term storage. 75%
> 
> option 2
> T129 & Z10ME with AH1S/F in long-term storage. 100%
> 
> option 3
> AH1Z, T129 & Z10ME with AH1S/F retired. 50%
> 
> there is a option 4 (worst case scenario)
> 
> Z10ME & AH1S/F


Option 3 I hope why not let Ah1F to FC??


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## FuturePAF

Sunny4pak said:


> Yes Sir its true & I have covered most of these upgrades in my recent video below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True sir i am agreed with you as Z10ME's are not coming on the cost of T129 or AH1Z nor as a replacement options for both. It would be addition to PA Heli Inventory considering the updgrades & weapon system that Z10ME is offering alongwith MMW Radar in near future.



I really like your videos. the loitering munition was something I learned from you. Perhaps the Z-10ME Should also be asked to carry the CM-501GA
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/images/cm-501ga-image02.jpg
It is very similar to the Spike NLOS being put on the Apache AH-64E; 40-50 km range covered in about 4 minutes. It will allow it to be on par with the latest Apache, and maximize the utility of the loitering munitions as forward scouts for the Z-10ME. 





btw, check out my idea to use Hurkus in the Northern Mountains to ambush Enemy helicopters. Its based on the Swiss air force's cold war doctrine of "raid-type operations"; STOL aircraft used for dynamic (mobile) defense and counter-air, while still retaining close-air support.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/karakorum-8-k-8-jet-trainer-aircraft.51303/page-56#post-12112072

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Option 3 I hope why not let Ah1F to FC??



possible in small numbers 4-6 subordinated. however I think army is in favour of the Mi35M for FC / MoI

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## Shabi1

mingle said:


> Option 3 I hope why not let Ah1F to FC??


I agree with you now that PA has created the infrastructure for full overhaul of Cobra's instead of relying on local agent of Bell, these could be sent to FC, availability rate could be relaxed so these birds get more thorough maintenance or could be kept as reserves.
They've shown great resilience against small arms and don't really need to risk using $25-35m units against small arms armed men.
Armed patrol duties should go to UCAVs since that is the cheapest way and gives loads of loiter time.

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## Sunny4pak

option 3
AH1Z, T129 & Z10ME with AH1S/F retired. 50%

Sir you are right that the option 3 seems to be at 50% but it looks as if Pak will go for AH1Z with own funds in near future (if it is the case of funds only) while availing Z10ME on loan from china & t129 with turkish engine most probably in 2025. as far as AH1s/F are concerned it would be used same as PAF did with Mirages (but in limited numbers) for FC.

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## FuturePAF

Sunny4pak said:


> option 3
> AH1Z, T129 & Z10ME with AH1S/F retired. 50%
> 
> Sir you are right that the option 3 seems to be at 50% but it looks as if Pak will go for AH1Z with own funds in near future (if it is the case of funds only) while availing Z10ME on loan from china & t129 with turkish engine most probably in 2025. as far as AH1s/F are concerned it would be used same as PAF did with Mirages (but in limited numbers) for FC.



Perhaps this is a blessing in disguise. The Turks will be forced to develop an indigenous engine for their products from now on. Pakistan should wait till the Turks have developed the ATAK2 attack helicopters to acquire as the high end of the attack helicopter fleet (on par with the Apache)

In the mean time, Pakistan can refurbish it’s 48 AH-1S/F, and try to see if they can acquire the Z-10ME. 

The Pakistan Army should also try to see if they can get the AH-1Z, but if it doesn’t look hopeful, they should move on as the Chinese weapons and sensors look to have caught up to other modern providers.


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## Reddawn

fatman17 said:


> option1
> AH1Z & T129 with AH1S/F in long-term storage. 75%
> 
> option 2
> T129 & Z10ME with AH1S/F in long-term storage. 100%
> 
> option 3
> AH1Z, T129 & Z10ME with AH1S/F retired. 50%
> 
> there is a option 4 (worst case scenario)
> 
> Z10ME & AH1S/F




Fatman, why is the PAA looking to get both the AH1Z AND T129?? Wouldn't it make sense from a logistical and cost perspective to get just one attach helo in numbers whether it is the T129; AH1Z or Z10ME?

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## fatman17

Reddawn said:


> Fatman, why is the PAA looking to get both the AH1Z AND T129?? Wouldn't it make sense from a logistical and cost perspective to get just one attach helo in numbers whether it is the T129; AH1Z or Z10ME?



if there is a repeat order for AH1Z, then T129 may not be required as 12 examples may not be enough. at least 24 are needed to retire / store the current AH1S/F fleet. however PAA may go for Z10ME in a Hi/Lo config.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IIRC...it's Z-10ME alone or the original AH-1Z/T129 combination.

Basically, if AH-1Z is coming, then by logical extension the T129 will come too because the bottleneck in both situations is the same: the US. The US won't approve one and deny the other. It's both or nothing. And if it's nothing, then the PAA will likely go for Z-10ME -- I guess 45-60 in one go.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IIRC...it's Z-10ME alone or the original AH-1Z/T129 combination.
> 
> Basically, if AH-1Z is coming, then by logical extension the T129 will come too because the bottleneck in both situations is the same: the US. The US won't approve one and deny the other. It's both or nothing. And if it's nothing, then the PAA will likely go for Z-10ME -- I guess 45-60 in one go.


not necessary...
its possible that only AH1Z come. They might want Pakistan to simply buy more AH1Z

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> not necessary...
> its possible that only AH1Z come. They might want Pakistan to simply buy more AH1Z


But what about mood of Congress????  they have super cobras as well in storage Pak can ask for both old and new one if Pak only wants US attack Heli


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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> It was reported in February 2020 that Pakistani Army has shown a serious interest in *Z-10ME* after jeopardization of the Turkish T129 attack helicopter deal. A recent video (September 2018) suggested that some *Z-10*s and *Z-10H*s (S/N LH9621xx, 9531xx, 9631xx, 9511xx) have been further upgraded. It features external ceramic armor plates outside the forward and back cockpits as well as the engine compartment to provide a better protection against small AAA fire. MAWS sensors were installed on both sides of the nose. The gunner also wears the new HMD. The latest image (February 2020) indicated some have redesigned engine exhausts facing upward similar to those onboard *Z-10ME* in order to reduce IR signature.


I heard thay Z10's electronics got burnt in Hot weather during testing so did they fixed that short coming?



ziaulislam said:


> not necessary...
> its possible that only AH1Z come. They might want Pakistan to simply buy more AH1Z





mingle said:


> But what about mood of Congress????


I think FMF is the issue. Pak wants it with FMF

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## mingle

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I heard thay Z10's electronics got burnt in Hot weather during testing so did they fixed that short coming?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think FMF is the issue. Pak wants it with FMF


Yes spot on there is no bar on Pak to buy US stuff but Pk wants through CSF Money subsidizes by US. But after talib deal Good chance Pak will get what she after


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## fatman17

The suspension is a trump administration decision. congress has already approved this sale


mingle said:


> But what about mood of Congress????  they have super cobras as well in storage Pak can ask for both old and new one if Pak only wants US attack Heli

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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> But what about mood of Congress????  they have super cobras as well in storage Pak can ask for both old and new one if Pak only wants US attack Heli


Mood changes as soon as lockheed martin comes to senators place..sir..jobs

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## nomi007

I hope PAA will never choose Z-10 attack helos,
its better to upgrade the current fleet of Ah-1F/S fleet with TAI upgrades like Bahranians

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## Tipu7

nomi007 said:


> I hope PAA will never choose Z-10 attack helos,
> its better to upgrade the current fleet of Ah-1F/S fleet with TAI upgrades like Bahranians
> View attachment 611095
> View attachment 611096
> View attachment 611097


We have discussed this idea couple of months ago with Turkey. I remember hearing chit chat between Turkish and Pakistani officials about upgraded Cobras and the deliveries of simulators during 5th Defense port expo held last year in Islamabad.

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## araz

Tipu7 said:


> We have discussed this idea couple of months ago with Turkey. I remember hearing chit chat between Turkish and Pakistani officials about upgraded Cobras and the deliveries of simulators during 5th Defense port expo held last year in Islamabad.


I know you will not divulge anything more but is it mere chit chat or is htere work on going to make it happen.
A


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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> We have discussed this idea couple of months ago with Turkey. I remember hearing chit chat between Turkish and Pakistani officials about upgraded Cobras and the deliveries of simulators during 5th Defense port expo held last year in Islamabad.


Even PAA get T129 or Zulus even Z10 ME these cobras shouldn't go to junk yard we have engine overhauling facility with Turkish Upgrade its as deadly as any other chopper can use by FC or even Army for Plain areas 35-40 copies will be very handy.


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## Tipu7

araz said:


> I know you will not divulge anything more but is it mere chit chat or is htere work on going to make it happen.
> A


Chit chat. Or better to say, 'exploratory discussion'.



mingle said:


> Even PAA get T129 or Zulus even Z10 ME these cobras shouldn't go to junk yard we have engine overhauling facility with Turkish Upgrade its as deadly as any other chopper can use by FC or even Army for Plain areas 35-40 copies will be very handy.


Cobras to FC is near to impossible.

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> Chit chat. Or better to say, 'exploratory discussion'.
> 
> 
> Cobras to FC is near to impossible.


It's fine but Army can keep them with these Upgrades Jordan got upgrade theior Ah1F too


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## fatman17

Turkish upgrades are not cheap. Price is a big hurdle, that's why PAA opted for the AH1Z, T129 and reconsidering the Z10ME.


mingle said:


> It's fine but Army can keep them with these Upgrades Jordan got upgrade theior Ah1F too

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## fatman17

Comparing upgrades for Bahrain, Jordan with our requirements is not comparable. Our field requirements are quite different. Hot and high 55*C, desert, mountains, snow bound etc etc plus our usage, sortie rates are much higher.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Aerospatiale-AS-350B3-Ecureuil/2180

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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> PAA needs a dedicated strike aircraft on the lines of A-10 , SU-25 etc that can relieve PAF from carrying the burden of not only giving air cover to PA but also performing air interdiction missions.
> 
> Considering the aircrafts already operated by PAF and slated for retirement are F-7 and Mirage III/V.
> 
> A-5 was a great choice, it was very cheap to procure and maintenance cost was low. It had 10 hard points and could carry a variety of air to ground ordnance including guided, unguided etc bombs. Infact PAF also used it for A2A CAP's. Retired and out of service, it might be a cumbersome task to bring its support and maintenance system back to life.
> 
> The light trainers K-8 and MFI-17 cannot carry enough ordnance to strike the enemy targets and their ecm and avionics is basic level. However, as last resort, they can have pylons added to them to carry A2G ordnance.
> 
> Mirages III/V are even older than F-7 though they are more potent and effective than F-7, even Non-ROSE ones. Most of Mirages acquired in the last batch were attained to be cannabalized for parts which means that apart from ROSE modified, the other mirages have almost non existent life on their air frames. PAF wanted to convert more Mirages to ROSE standards but changed decision due to over bearing cost and importantly coz of old ageing air frames. Retired Non-Rose Mirages can spark more crashes than sortie rates. On the other hand, PAF might need them for parts to keep ROSE squadrons airworthy for next many years.
> 
> PAF may not let go of F-7 PG quickly. It has an upgraded radar and its performance at high altitude is good.
> 
> The F-7P replaced by JF-17 can be the choice of aircraft for PAA for ground strike missions. SLAF and BAF have used them as ground strike aircraft with different munitions. BAF has also modified F-7 by increasing its hard points from 5 to 7.
> 
> F-7P already has the support and maintenance infrastructure available for operations. There are 100+ F-7P in PAF service. Even if a 12-18 aircrafts squadron is given to the three commands of PA: Northern,Central and Southern, 50 odd aircrafts would be required.
> 
> The AGM-65 maverick in PAF service is used by F-16's, though its an under utilization for it. F-16 in PAF has many other significant roles.
> 
> If this weapon is integrated with Grifo radar of F-7P and used by PAA , having a range of around of 20km can be used effectively to hit enemy tanks, Mobile SAM's, Ammo and Fuel dumps, C4I and other command centres, important bridges etc.
> Originally a TV guided missile but in later variants the resolution has been enhanced so pilots dont need to get really close to target to fire it as some versions are IR and laser homing targetting.It can be used with LANTRIN and even Altis pod on PAF F-16's.
> C-704 is considered the chinese equivalent of AGM-65, although C-704 is an anti-ship missile.
> 
> F-7 has basic 2 X 30mm cannons. Non guided 500kg bombs or Mk82 bombs may also be used. BAF uses cluster, anti runway and PGM bombs.
> It can already carry Aim-9 A2A missile.
> 
> Though the loiter time is less but if it can show up in time of need, engage, strike and turn away, its a bang for buck.
> 
> With the induction of a dedicated strike aircraft in PAA, the distress calls for air cover as well as air support by PA can be met easily without hampering PAF ops.



Brilliant analysis. I agree. I actually wrote a paper once to do the same with the A-5s. Spare parts are cheap for F-7Ps. Also, one can easily by F-7Gs from China for the same purpose, they are a bit better quality and better for CAS due to lower loiter speeds, better fuel consumption and better gun stability.

The other option is to go for a "Pak version of an A-10 / Su-25"

If you want a cheap, rugged plane that can take small arms fire, use standoff munition, and scoot, you can build one for about 1 - 5 million dollars per plane. Using simple aluminum and kevlar as armour and keeping costs down with piston engines (or a more innovative solution, see below). 

If we take the Tucano as the base idea, the largest cost of the Tucano is in its engine, which is a turboprop. Building the same idea with a piston engine would reduce cost of purchase and upkeep by 1/4th

If one wished to go cheaper than this, it is possible to go with a combination of a two-stroke and a pulsejet. The advantage is to reduce costs to about 100,000 dollars per engine and to be able to manufacture them locally 100 percent and minimal hassle.

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## FuturePAF

air marshal said:


> https://falcons.pk/photo/Aerospatiale-AS-350B3-Ecureuil/2180



I agree Pakistan should look into upgrading its AH-1F/S in Turkey, but it should also look at upgrading its Fennec and Ecureuil Helicopters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Army_Aviation_Corps#Aircraft_inventory
Pakistan operates 31 Fennec and 23 Ecureuil, Pakistan should consider the Chinese Z-11WB upgrade for some of these helicopters

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## Ahmet Pasha

Yeah kinda like the UH1Venom 


FuturePAF said:


> I agree Pakistan should look into upgrading its AH-1F/S in Turkey, but it should also look at upgrading its Fennec and Ecureuil Helicopters.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Army_Aviation_Corps#Aircraft_inventory
> Pakistan operates 31 Fennec and 23 Ecureuil, Pakistan should consider the Chinese Z-11WB upgrade for some of these helicopters

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## FuturePAF

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Yeah kinda like the UH1Venom



Might as well the most out of our existing platforms. You never know when an LZ can become hot and you need to come in laying covering fire. This could also be good for SWAT type operations in cities, or counter-narcotics on the border. A FLIR camera can open up a lot of possibilities.

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## Ahmet Pasha

We should start makin a 3 barrell minigun in Pakistan.


FuturePAF said:


> Might as well the most out of our existing platforms. You never know when an LZ can become hot and you need to come in laying covering fire. This could also be good for SWAT type operations in cities, or counter-narcotics on the border. A FLIR camera can open up a lot of possibilities.


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## FuturePAF

Ahmet Pasha said:


> We should start makin a 3 barrell minigun in Pakistan.



Only if we plan to field them widely. Better to buy if we only intended to have a few dozen for these helicopters.

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## nomi007




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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237124668953329664

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## Incog_nito

Why not PAA buy diverse Attack Helicopters that are specialized for various roles?

30 AH-1Z Vipers (12 already build + order 18 more - pay the price per unit)
30 Tiger Eurocopter with PA Requirements.
30 Z-10 / Mi-28
10-30 Mi-35 for SSGs.


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## Bossman

IM Ozair said:


> Why not PAA buy diverse Attack Helicopters that are specialized for various roles?
> 
> 30 AH-1Z Vipers (12 already build + order 18 more - pay the price per unit)
> 30 Tiger Eurocopter with PA Requirements.
> 30 Z-10 / Mi-28
> 10-30 Mi-35 for SSGs.


Please attach a copy of your birth certificate.

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## jupiter2007

IM Ozair said:


> Why not PAA buy diverse Attack Helicopters that are specialized for various roles?
> 
> 30 AH-1Z Vipers (12 already build + order 18 more - pay the price per unit)
> 30 Tiger Eurocopter with PA Requirements.
> 30 Z-10 / Mi-28
> 10-30 Mi-35 for SSGs.



30-35 Helicopters (Z-10 variant or T129 ATAK) are only option at this time due to budget.

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## Incog_nito

jupiter2007 said:


> 30-35 Helicopters (Z-10 variant or T129 ATAK) are only option at this time due to budget.


Doesn't Turkish and EU banks offer financial support?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IM Ozair said:


> Doesn't Turkish and EU banks offer financial support?


They offer loans. But you still need to have enough money every year in your budget to repay that loan.

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## mudas777

Please attach a copy of your birth certificate.[/QUOTE]

Perfect answer 10 out of 10.


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## fatman17

*old news but informative...*


*Oceania Aviation complete Pakistan Army Schweizer upgrade program*



* 20 Oct, 17, Source: Oceania Aviation *
Within New Zealand, the Oceania Aviation brand is fairly well known in aviation circles but over recent years we have seen growing interest from overseas. This has seen many of our team spend lengthy periods of time completing various offshore projects. The first project with Trade Dynamics in Pakistan that began in 2015 has now come to its conclusion, this was the Schweizer 269C Refurbishment Programme for the Pakistan Army.

Back in 2014, after an introduction between Don McCracken, Mr Muhamad Younas and Mr Salman Younas a relationship was formed between Oceania Aviation and Trade Dynamics, a Pakistan-based company supporting commercial Aviation and some government tenders.

The Pakistan Army flight training school was requesting support in refurbishing a number of its light training helicopters. Our offshore Projects Manager, Glenn Rawnsley, visited the training base in August of that year to inspect and quote on the work needed to get these aircraft back in the air. After a successful engagement agreement, work began in November of 2015 with our team spending four weeks in Pakistan disassembling five of their aircraft.

Accompanying Glenn on their first-ever trip to Pakistan was our Avionics Manager Philip Hutchings, our Helicopter Components Supervisor Duncan Moxon, and Licensed Engineer Ryan Daum. After disassembly, our team packed and shipped components back to our facilities in New Zealand for the overhaul and repairs to be completed. These included the Main & Tail Gearboxes, Rotor Blades, Power Train Assembly and Main Rotor Head Assembly, all completed by our in-house Helicopter Components team based in Auckland. The aircraft avionics were also removed for exchange and repair.

For quality purposes, the Pakistan Army asked for the mainframes to be checked for dimensional tolerance. This was carried out by digitally scanning the dimensional reference points for compliance using a Farad arm scanner.

As part of the contract, 12 Pakistani engineers visited Oceania Aviation New Zealand to complete theoretical and hands-on training. This training included piston engine technical information with our team in Hamilton and component training in Auckland, aimed to assist these engineers by leveraging our long-term overhaul experience with the intent to do more in-house work and reduce their outsourcing requirements.

Our original team returned in May of 2016 for what ended up being a seven-week stint to reassemble the initial five aircraft, now with newly overhauled and repaired components and avionics. This was followed by another three weeks to complete flight testing. The lengths of these trips were significantly extended due to reasons not often faced here in New Zealand such as severe weather, daily power outages, and most significantly the adherence to the Muslim practices of the prayer and fasting observed during the month of Ramadan.

The Pakistan Air Traffic Control also have strict regulations around weather, with the slightest hint of bad weather resulting in the canceling of test flights.

In November of 2016 Airborne Systems Manager, Russell Goulden joined Glenn in holding a two-week training course in Pakistan on specific maintenance and technical aspects of the 269 aircraft.

The following year a further 5 aircraft were refurbished with much greater input from the Pakistan Army technicians. A reassembly trip followed in May 2017, where our team of four (Ross MacKenzie taking Duncan Moxons place) traveled to Islamabad to assist with the project. After the first trip to Pakistan, Glenn decided the best solution for team efficiency was to ship over a container that would both act as an office and as a means to get the required tooling to the base.

“The container made a huge impact on our work. We had all the tooling needed to get the job done and most importantly, “ Glenn jokes, “we had an air-conditioned office. Working in 40-degree temperatures takes a toll and we simply aren’t used to working in that kind of environment.”

At times conditions were challenging for the kiwi team, with the high temperatures, occasional illness and adapting to cultural differences but in all regards, the staff and army personnel of both Trade Dynamics and the Rawalpindi base were warm, welcoming and wonderful hosts.

Various members of our Oceania Aviation team complete a number of projects in different parts of the world throughout the year. We have the expertise, manpower, and experience in offshore projects, talk to us about how we could help.


Tags: Civil, News, Oceania Aviation, Pakistan Army, S269C

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Cessna-208B-Grand-Caravan/2069

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## Sunny4pak

*AH1Z Specs & Possible Deliveries to Pakistan*

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## khanasifm

Sunny4pak said:


> *AH1Z Specs & Possible Deliveries to Pakistan*




Paa only order because that was the option to use collation support funds

paa is getting 30 t-129 for 1.5b and I am sure for same $$ can/ will get 40-50 Chinese heli both t-129 and Chinese heli will include in country third and forth level support which lowers operational cost over the life of weapons systems


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## ali_raza

why my post deleted why?
mods have no stomach to digest anything these days?

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## nomi007

khanasifm said:


> Paa only order because that was the option to use collation support funds
> 
> paa is getting 30 t-129 for 1.5b and I am sure for same $$ can/ will get 40-50 Chinese heli both t-129 and Chinese heli will include in country third and forth level support which lowers operational cost over the life of weapons systems


why we are buying T-129 or Chinese Z-10 by our own fund better to go for AH-1zs by this 1.5 billion$, this will also convince USA to release 12 of Ah-1Z from Storage

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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> why we are buying T-129 or Chinese Z-10 by our own fund better to go for AH-1zs by this 1.5 billion$, this will also convince USA to release 12 of Ah-1Z from Storage


Good point along used AH1 super cobras they have alot of them can be used again

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## Sunny4pak

mingle said:


> Good point along used AH1 super cobras they have alot of them can be used again


But Sir, In both cases (t129 & Z10) we are not gonna pay at once instead loan, split payments come into play as per my assessment, which isn't the case in Zulus.

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## ghazi52

Happy Pakistan Day
2 Army Mi-8 helicopters in formation,
Rawalpindi, 23 March 1976

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## Blacklight

ali_raza said:


> why my post deleted why?
> mods have no stomach to digest anything these days?


Mine was deleted as well. Seems anything that does not confirm to the official position of PDF is not allowed. 

Well the good thing is that time is a great Equalizer.


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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> Mine was deleted as well. Seems anything that does not confirm to the official position of PDF is not allowed.
> 
> Well the good thing is that time is a great Equalizer.


well if anything is against iran it gets deleted immediately 
if something is pro then u r banned


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## nomi007

mingle said:


> Good point along used AH1 super cobras they have alot of them can be used again


AH-1F/S can be upgraded with an cheap alternative of south african group 
*Paramount Group*, they previously upgraded algerian mi-24.

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## Blacklight

ali_raza said:


> well if anything is against iran it gets deleted immediately
> if something is pro then u r banned


But our posts weren't against anyone, so that is surprising.


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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> But our posts weren't against anyone, so that is surprising.


i have my sources which r more solid then anyone here on pdf.and even more but i keep quiet to see who’s agenda is being served 
its a long game.
when biological warfare was imposed on pakistan by iranians our people r praising persians.
the only thread for this matter opened was immediately closed why?
btw z10 and j15 both r very solid

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## syed_yusuf

ali_raza said:


> i have my sources which r more solid then anyone here on pdf.and even more but i keep quiet to see who’s agenda is being served
> its a long game.
> 
> *btw z10 and j15 both r very solid*



what do you mean by z10 and j15 R very solid?


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## ali_raza

syed_yusuf said:


> what do you mean by z10 and j15 R very solid?


i mean tbey r good machines

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## JPMM

Portuguese Force (Paratroopers) trains with Pakistani aviation unit in the Central African Republic

The Portuguese Rapid Reaction Force, of the 7th National Force deployed in the United Nations peacekeeping mission in the Central African Republic, carried out, on March 20, a joint training with the Pakistani aviation unit.
This training of adaptation to the means served to test their interoperability, as well as to prepare actions for aerial medical evacuation and helitransport, being important to exponentiate the reaction capacity of the Rapid Reaction Force and to make the coordination of means easier and more fluid.
The team of Advanced Air Controllers of the Portuguese Air Force had the opportunity to contact the Pakistani Helis and check the interoperability with them, creating synergies to improve their performance.
The health module trained evacuation procedures, thus contributing to an increase in evacuation efficiency, if necessary.
The Companhia de Manobra (manuver company) trained helitransport procedures, as well as the “top cover” provided by these means.
The elements of the Pakistani aviation unit managed to transmit their needs for the interoperability of the means, thus achieving synergies with the Portuguese force for future operations.
“Que que nunca por vencidos se conheçam”.








































Thanks

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## JPMM



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## nomi007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246079851481780224PAA have to cancel the T-129 Deal. better to go for AH-1Z

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## Haris Ali2140

nomi007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246079851481780224PAA have to cancel the T-129 Deal. better to go for AH-1Z


LOLz US is blocking both AH-1Z & T-129 deals.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Cessna-208B-Grand-Caravan/2069

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## nomi007

Haris Ali2140 said:


> LOLz US is blocking both AH-1Z & T-129 deals.


why they are blocking only two reason came in mind.
1st we want Ah-1z from COALITION SUPPORT FUND.
2nd T-129 is Turkish made helo, after S400 deal USA will never support Turkish defense industry.
If we Buy directly AH-1z by our own money instead of T-129 than USA may be release remaining cobras

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## Kabotar

Why would we do that? Today it is because of CSF tomorrow it will be something else move the F on. 

The best way would be to order Z10ME in place of T129. 
Use the money from T129's contract penalty as seed for Atak 2 program. 
It will be WIN-WIN for everyone.


nomi007 said:


> why they are blocking only two reason came in mind.
> 1st we want Ah-1z from COALITION SUPPORT FUND.
> 2nd T-129 is Turkish made helo, after S400 deal USA will never support Turkish defense industry.
> If we Buy directly AH-1z by our own money instead of T-129 than USA may be release remaining cobras

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## fatman17

*World Defense & Security News - Russia & Pakistan*


*Pakistan and combat helicopters in the war against terrorism*

The role of combat helicopters on the modern battlefield is expanding due to the increasing Islamic State`s (IS) terroristic group activity and the anti-terroristic coalition`s backlash. Several countries from the Persian Gulf, the Near East and the Central Asia regions are paying a lot of attention to the issue, acquiring the modern Russian, US, and European helicopters to provide close air support to their own forces and effective destruction of the IS`s facilities.




*Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopter*

At the same time, several countries are relying on obsolete Cold war-age platforms in fighting with Islamic State and other terroristic groups. One of such states is Pakistan, which continues to be a perspective customer for Russian combat helicopters.

There are several countries from the aforementioned regions, now fighting against IS. This list includes Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Bahrein, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Pakistan as the Near Eastern and Asian partners of the European members of the coalition. Helicopters play an important role in counter-terroristic actions (CTA). The air campaign of the Russian VKS (Vozdushno-Kosmicheskie Sily) against IS in Syria, being supported by several *Mi-24Ps* (Hind), proves their combat value.

From the aforementioned countries, Saudi Arabia has the strongest rotor-wing aircraft fleet. It comprises 15 helicopters, including 12 AH-64D Apache Longbow and three AH-64E Apache Guardian. The UAE has 30 AH-64Ds in its fleet. The Syria`s armed forces have 24 *Mi-25s* (export modification of Soviet Mi-24 Hind).

Iraq has recently upgraded its rotor-wing aircraft fleet, having received 16 Mi-35Ms and 11 *Mi-28NE "Night Hunter"* (Havoc-B) helicopters. According to the signed agreement, Russia is to supply to Iraq 24 Mi-35Ms and 19 Mi-28NEs in total before the midst of 2016.

Turkey has one of the strongest rotorcraft fleet in the region. It includes 18 AH-1Ps (Cobra), 12 AH-1S (Cobra), 6 AH-1W (Cobra), 4 TAH-1P (Cobra). The Turkish Aerospace Industries company (TAI) has started to supply the newest *T-129 ATAK* helicopters to the national armed forces. As of August 2015, nine T-129s had been delivered. Turkey`s armed forces intend to get 59 ATAKs in total, covering the requirement for modern combat helicopters. Pakistan has 38 AH-1F/S Cobras and one Mi-24 (in store). The Jordan`s rotor-wing aircraft fleet includes 25 AH-1Fs. The Bahrein`s Air Force has 16 AH-1Es, 12 AH-1Fs, 6 TAH-1Ps.

Now two countries are heavily relying on army aviation in fighting against terrorism, namely, Iraq and Pakistan. Baghdad has decided to buy modern helicopters, including well-protected Mi-28NEs. At the same time, the Islamabad`s rotor-wing aircraft fleet is suffering from several troubles. The obsolete Cobras supplied to Pakistan in 1984-1986 do not fully withstand the pressure of fighting against IS. Their level of protection fails to meet the modern standards. The AH-1F/S payload is limited to 1500 kg, and only four or eight AGM-114 Hellfire guided missiles can be installed.

Pakistan is suffering from the lack of spare parts for Cobras. This technical problem reduces the effectiveness of the Pakistan`s combat helicopter fleet backbone. AH-1F/S are becoming obsolete, and the upgrade of the Cobras seems to be unpractical. Therefore, now Islamabad is feeling a deep need in new combat rotor-wing aircraft acquisition.

Pakistan is actively seeking new ways to get helicopters for the national armed forces. Having declined the appropriate Islamabad`s requests for several times, In April 2015 the U.S. State Department took the final decision to approve the sales of 15 AH-1Z Vipers to Pakistan (previously Washington had declined the appropriate request for the helicopters several times for the reasons of human rights infringement by Islamabad). AH-1Z payload (2620 kg) is at the level of *Mi-35V* and Mi-28NE. Nevertheless, the Viper`s ballistic and missile protection is weaker in comparison with the "Night Hunter". At the same time, the AH-1Z`s price tag is significantly higher than the *Mi-28NE*`s one.




*CAIC Z-10 attack helicopter*

Pakistan is also conducting negotiations with China to acquire rotor-wing aircraft. In particular, Islamabad took the delivery of three Z-10 combat helicopters from Chinese company CAIC (Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation). Nevertheless, the combat effectiveness of these rotorcraft is being doubted by some Western analytics. They have never been tested in combat environment. Z-10 carries smaller payload (approximately 1500 kg) in comparison with Mi-35M, Mi-28NE, or AH-1Z. It is equipped with two WZ-9 engines, which come short of power in comparison with Russian Klimov VK-2500-2 and US General Electric T700-GE-401C. Being underpowered, Z-10 cannot fly with full payload.

Meanwhile, modern well-protected helicopters are strongly sought-for. According to the investigation conducted by US Department of Defence-led Joint Aircraft Survivability Program Office (JASPO) and Institute for Defence Analyses (IDA), man-portable air defence systems (MANPADS) and rocket-propelled RPG grenades pose the most significant threat to rotor-wing aircraft on the modern battlefield. JASPO and IDA have come to the conclusion, that in the course of Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom (in Afghanistan and Iraq, respectively) operations (OEF/OIF) between October 2001 and September 2009 combat losses (including aircraft shootdown by enemy fire) accounted for 19 % of all loses. Meanwhile, different mishaps accounted for the remaining 81 %. 73 % of fatalities occurred in combat theater. In total, 496 accidents took place within the prescribed period, and 375 rotor-wing aircraft were lost.

In comparison with the Vietnam War, the losses/flight time ratio reduced by seven times and consisted 2,71 lost helicopters for 100000 flight hours (reduction by seven times). Nevertheless, this figure excels the limit set by the US Congress and Pentagon (0,5 lost rotor-wing aircraft for 100000 flight hours).

The US armed forces have lost in combat 70 helicopters within the prescribed period. Different mishaps during combat during accounted for 157 rotor-wing aircraft. 148 more helicopters were lost in non-combat environment.

The losses of *AH-64A/AH-64D Apache Longbow* helicopters in the aforementioned conflicts are important for the estimation of modern helicopters` combat effectiveness on the battlefield. Between October, 2001 and September, 2009 11 AH-64s in Iraq and Afghanistan were lost due to the enemy fire: two in 2003, two in 2004, one in 2005, three in 2006, three in 2007. Different mishaps in combat environment accounted for 31 more Apaches: two in 2002, six in 2003, five in 2004, seven in 2005, four in 2006, six in 2007, and one in 2009. The US armed forces lost 26 rotor-wing aircraft in non-hostile environment within the prescribed period: seven in 2002, three in 2003, three in 2004, seven in 2005, two in 2006, three in 2007, and one in 2009. In total, the US armed forces lost 68 *AH-64A/AH-64D* between October, 2001 and September, 2009, including 11 in combat environment (16 %).

The ageing *AH-1 Cobra/Super Cobra* helicopters also suffered some combat losses during Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom, namely, five rotor-wing aircraft. One *AH-1* was lost in 2003, two in 2004, one in 2006, one in 2008. Non-hostile mishaps accounted for 5 Cobras: one in 2002, two in 2003, one in 2004, one in 2009. In total, the US armed forces lost 15 AH-1s between October 2001 and September 2009, including five in combat environment (33 %).

Modern researches point out the reduction of all types of rotor-wing aircraft losses in Iraq and Afghanistan in comparison with the Vietnam War. This trend was defined by the installation of new equipment and avionics, additional armour of cockpit, protected and shockproof fuel systems. In particular, UH-60 Blackhawk utility helicopter can fly for at least 30 minutes, having been hit by a single 7,62mm armour-piercing incendiary bullet. AH-64A/AH-64D`s armour protection is significantly heavier.

Small arms and light weapons (SALW) have been the most significant threat to the helicopters both in Vietnam and in Iraq/Afghanistan. SALW accounted for 94 % of combat losses during the Vietnam War and for 31 % during the OIF/OEF. SALW is supposed to be the most significant threat to rotor-wing aircraft in the years to come. The danger, emanating from MANPADS and rocket-propelled grenades has increased. Modern combat helicopters are heavily protected from bullets, meanwhile being relatively vulnerable to MANPDAS missiles.

Within the prescribed period the Iraqi and Afghanistan militants didn`t use radar-guided missile systems or anti-aircraft (AA) guns. The most powerful AA means, exploited by them, were MANPADS. Nevertheless, the sphere of the IS`s influence is spreading, and the terroristic group can get surface-to-air missile systems (SAM) in the near future, and the threat emanating from this kind of weapons may increase. Moreover, the video records produced by IS point out that the terrorists have weapons captured from the Iraqi government forces. Therefore, IS may obtain SAM systems. In this case Supercobras/Vipers and Mi-35Ms will remain short of *Mi-28NE*s and AH-64D/Es.

The US experts recommend equipping combat helicopters with electronic warfare systems, IR jammers and other countermeasures, flares, anti-blast seats for crew, threat detection systems, missile-warning equipment, and fly-by-wire systems. The upgrade of helicopters` crashworthiness level is also suggested. Therefore, Mi-28NEs being already equipped with the aforementioned hardware would have superiority over Mi-35Ms in fighting against IS in the regions of the Near East and Asia.

*Mi-35M* is the latest modification of the world-famous Hind, while Mi-28NE is a helicopter designed from the scratch with a glance to the Afghan war (1979-1989) combat experience. The conditions of this conflict are similar to those of war against the IS terroristic group.




*Boeing AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopter*

Mi-28NE`s gun weapon has several advantages over the Mi-35M`s one. Night Hunter is equipped with NPPU-28 gun mount with 30mm 2A42 gun (widely used in Russian armed forces BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicle is also equipped with 2A42 gun). Its ammunition load includes 300 rounds. 2A42 uses four types of ammunition, namely armour-piercing (AP) 3UBR6 and 3UBR8, high-explosive (HE) fragmentation incendiary 3UOF8, fragmentation incendiary 3UOR6. 3UBR6 and 3UBR8 shells can effectively hit armoured vehicles at the 1000 m and 1500 m, relatively. Foreign operators of 2A42 gun also have an option to use armour piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) shells produced by Swiss, Belgian, Bulgarian, Czech, and Slovak companies. 2A42 gun can hit personnel targets at the 2000-4000 m (depending on the type of shell).

In comparison with Night Hunter, the Mi-35M`s gun weapon is less powerful. The helicopter is equipped with NPPU-23 gun mount with 23mm GSh-23L gun. Its ammunition load includes 450 rounds. GSh-23L uses several types of ammunition, namely, HE tracer OFZ-23-AM-GSh, HE incendiary tracer OFZT-23-AM-GSh, AP incendiary tracer BZT-23-AM-GSh and BZT-23-GSH, HE incendiary FZ-23-GSh and FZ-23-GSh-N, AP explosive BR-23-AMGSh, multiple-element ME-23-GSh.

In the terms of armour penetration and behind-armour-effect, 23x115mm rounds of GSh-23L are inferior to 30x165mm rounds of 2A42. GSh-23L can hit hard targets at 1000-1500 m, and soft targets - at 2000 m. Only Russian and Chinese batch-produced aircraft are equipped with GSh-23/GH-23L. Therefore, the range of foreign ammunition types for the gun is restricted, and the aforementioned Russian rounds are delivered with helicopters and planes to foreign customers. GSh-23L has only one advantage over 2A42, namely, the ability to fire multiple-element round ME-23-GSh. It has a high degree of effectiveness against personnel targets and uncovered aircraft. Therefore, Mi-28N`s gun weapon is more effective in fighting against terroristic groups than the Mi-35M`s one.

The Night Hunter`s payload (2400 kg) significantly exceeds the Hind-M`s one (2100 kg). In addition to that, Mi-28NE can use more types of weapons.

Mi-35M`s range of armament subsystems includes UPK-23 gun pods with two GSh-23L guns (250 rounds per pod), B8V20-A 20-tube unguided rocket launchers for 80mm S-8 family of rockets, B13L1 5-tube unguided rocket launchers for 122mm S-13 family of rockets, up to 16 AT-6 Spiral or AT-9 Spiral-2 anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) in two pods. Mi-28NE can also use the aforementioned systems. While Mi-35M is equipped with AT-6 ATGMs as the standard anti-tank weapon, Mi-28NE uses AT-9. Night Hunter also can fire air-to-air 9M39 Igla-V missiles included in the Strelets system.

Mi-28NE`s level of protection significantly increases the Mi-35M`s one. In comparison with Mi-24V, Mi-35M`s armour hasn`t been essentially upgraded. During the Afghan war DShK, M2/M2HB machineguns, and ZGU-1, ZPU-1/ZPU-2/ZPU-4, ZU-23-2 AA guns posed the main threat to the Soviet Mi-24Vs. The aforementioned weapon can effectively hit not only the previous Hind modification, but also Mi-35Ms.




*TAI T129 ATAK attack helicopter*

During the development of Mi-28NE, its designers payed significant attention to the helicopter`s ballistic protection. Two VK-2500-2 engines are separated and shielded by the airframe components. The blades of both main and auxiliary rotors are made of durable composites. The fueling, hydraulic, and pneumatic mains are duplicated. Moreover, the less important Mi-28NE`s subsystems cover the more important ones. The helicopter`s pore spaces are filled with foamed material. The crew received armoured cabin and anti-blast seats with parachute rescue system. Mi-28NE is equipped with inflatable air bags to prevent collision of the crew with landing gear in case of emergency escape. Special attention was payed to fire protection, namely, fuel tanks and inflammable sections. Mi-28NE is supposed to get energy-attenuating landing gear. The helicopter`s canopy and cabin are protected from 12,7mm AP and 20mm/23mm HE-I rounds. The rotor blades can withstand several hits of 30mm HE rounds. Therefore the Mi-28NE`s probability of being hit by heavy machinegun and small-caliber guns has been reduced. Therefore, ZU-23-2 (supposed to be the most widespread AA gun of IS) should spend significantly more time and rounds to shoot down Night Hunter.

Mi-28NE is also equipped with modern onboard defence system, which includes laser/radar warning system (there is an option of missile warning installation). To increase the chance of MANPADS missiles avoiding, President-S electronic jamming station can be optionally fitted.

The Mi-28NE`s endurance toward MANPADS missiles has significantly increased in comparison with Mi-35M. Modern insurgent and terroristic group are shoring up their anti-air defence systems. Previously they had Soviet SA-7 Grails and US FIM-92A Stingers. At the time, IS is supposed to have 250-400 MANPADS (including FIM-92, FN-6, SA-7, SA-18, SA-24) and huge numbers of ZU-23-2 AA gun, DShK and M2HB machineguns. SA-24 MANPADS, captured by IS terrorists from the Syrian government armed forces pose the most significant threat to combat helicopters. The Chinese FN-6 MANPADS, acquired by Qatar for the Free Syrian Army and subsequently handed over to IS, should not be underestimated. At least, one Iraqi Mi-35M equipped with Ukrainian KT-01-AVE Adros electronic jamming station was shot down by FN-6 in October, 2014. IS also has several 23mm ZSU-23-4 Shilka self-propelled AA guns and 57mm AZP-57 towing AA guns.

Therefore, the Islamic State is rapidly beefing up its air defence. The terrorist group is supposed to follow such a trend in the near future. As a result, the heavy-protected combat helicopters (for instance, Mi-28NE) are required by anti-IS government forces to carry on air strikes.




*Mil Mi-28NE attack helicopter*

Pakistan is moving toward the acquisition of the Russian combat helicopters. During Dubai Airshow 2015 exhibition the Rostec Corporation`s director general Sergei Chemezov told, that Pakistan would start to receive the ordered Mi-35Ms in 2016. Islamabad gives a high rating to the Russian combat rotor-wing aircraft, as the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) state company`s head, Air Marshal Javaid Ahmed told the European Defence Review during the Dubai airshow. "_The quality of Russian defence production is outstanding,_" Ahmed said.

He pointed out, that Pakistan was working with Russian industry in several areas. "_I hope, we will see breakthrough on several issues in the following next months,_" he pointed out. "_Pakistan has recently acquired Russian Mi-35M combat helicopters. I suppose this deal is a king of progress _(in Russian-Pakistan relations)", Ahmed added.

The PAC`s head highly appreciated Russian rotor-wing aircraft. "_Previously, we acquired Mi-171 utility helicopters from Russia. They revealed to be reliable aircraft in our sandy climate conditions. We are reviewing some options to work closely with several Russian companies,_" Ahmed said.

He added, that Pakistan`s armed forces were demanding modern helicopters in relatively large quantities. "_We are extensively using our rotor-wing aircraft in operations against terrorists. To this end, we need every piece of Russian defense production_," the PAC`s head underscored.

Pakistan is ready to promote the military-technical cooperation with Russia, confirmed Pakistan Air Force`s (PAF) commander, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman during Dubai Airshow 2015. "_The PAF are open for cooperation, we are eager to establish good relationship with different countries_," Aman said. "_We are estimating the probability to fulfill several projects, including those with Russia,_" he added.

"_Why not? We should beef up relations with different countries, giving a helping hand and complementing each other. Aircraft engines constitute only one aspect of defense production. We should develop cooperation,_" Ahmed said. Therefore, the Pakistan military authorities are demonstrating their willingness to acquire and use Russian rotor-wing aircraft.




*Mil Mi-35M attack helicopter*

Taking into account the aforementioned data, several conclusions can be made. The modern battlefield requires for combat helicopters equipped with heavy ballistic protection and integrated EW suits. To hit armor and personnel targets effectively, these rotor-wing aircraft should have gun weapon, ATGMs, and unguided rockets. The required payload is supposed to be more, than 2000-2300 kg. The modern combat helicopters should be equipped with two spaced-apart engines, each having at least 2000 h.p. 

Taking into account the financial constraints, as well as abovementioned requirements, Pakistan has only two options to be chosen from, namely, Russian Mi-28NE Night Hunter or US AH-1Z Viper. Both helicopters are at the same level in the terms of combat characteristics. Nevertheless, Mi-28NE has three key advantages over AH-1Z, namely, improved reliability in mountain and desert regions, less expensive life cycle cost, simplified requirements for crew training. In keeping with the aforementioned approach, the cost-effectiveness criterion seems to be the pivotal one, as different mishaps, not enemy fire account for most of combat helicopter losses on the modern battlefield. 

The exploitation of AH-1Zs during OEF/OIF revealed that dust, sand and hot climate limited the operations of these helicopters. At the same time, Russian-made counterparts, namely, Mi-28NEs and Mi-35Ms presented themselves well in several countries of the Near East and Central Asia regions. On that premise, Russian combat helicopters seems to be the best option for the Pakistan`s armed forces in terms of fighting against terrorism.

*© Copyright 2015 TASS.*

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> *World Defense & Security News - Russia & Pakistan*
> 
> 
> *Pakistan and combat helicopters in the war against terrorism*
> 
> The role of combat helicopters on the modern battlefield is expanding due to the increasing Islamic State`s (IS) terroristic group activity and the anti-terroristic coalition`s backlash. Several countries from the Persian Gulf, the Near East and the Central Asia regions are paying a lot of attention to the issue, acquiring the modern Russian, US, and European helicopters to provide close air support to their own forces and effective destruction of the IS`s facilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopter*
> 
> At the same time, several countries are relying on obsolete Cold war-age platforms in fighting with Islamic State and other terroristic groups. One of such states is Pakistan, which continues to be a perspective customer for Russian combat helicopters.
> 
> There are several countries from the aforementioned regions, now fighting against IS. This list includes Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Bahrein, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Pakistan as the Near Eastern and Asian partners of the European members of the coalition. Helicopters play an important role in counter-terroristic actions (CTA). The air campaign of the Russian VKS (Vozdushno-Kosmicheskie Sily) against IS in Syria, being supported by several *Mi-24Ps* (Hind), proves their combat value.
> 
> From the aforementioned countries, Saudi Arabia has the strongest rotor-wing aircraft fleet. It comprises 15 helicopters, including 12 AH-64D Apache Longbow and three AH-64E Apache Guardian. The UAE has 30 AH-64Ds in its fleet. The Syria`s armed forces have 24 *Mi-25s* (export modification of Soviet Mi-24 Hind).
> 
> Iraq has recently upgraded its rotor-wing aircraft fleet, having received 16 Mi-35Ms and 11 *Mi-28NE "Night Hunter"* (Havoc-B) helicopters. According to the signed agreement, Russia is to supply to Iraq 24 Mi-35Ms and 19 Mi-28NEs in total before the midst of 2016.
> 
> Turkey has one of the strongest rotorcraft fleet in the region. It includes 18 AH-1Ps (Cobra), 12 AH-1S (Cobra), 6 AH-1W (Cobra), 4 TAH-1P (Cobra). The Turkish Aerospace Industries company (TAI) has started to supply the newest *T-129 ATAK* helicopters to the national armed forces. As of August 2015, nine T-129s had been delivered. Turkey`s armed forces intend to get 59 ATAKs in total, covering the requirement for modern combat helicopters. Pakistan has 38 AH-1F/S Cobras and one Mi-24 (in store). The Jordan`s rotor-wing aircraft fleet includes 25 AH-1Fs. The Bahrein`s Air Force has 16 AH-1Es, 12 AH-1Fs, 6 TAH-1Ps.
> 
> Now two countries are heavily relying on army aviation in fighting against terrorism, namely, Iraq and Pakistan. Baghdad has decided to buy modern helicopters, including well-protected Mi-28NEs. At the same time, the Islamabad`s rotor-wing aircraft fleet is suffering from several troubles. The obsolete Cobras supplied to Pakistan in 1984-1986 do not fully withstand the pressure of fighting against IS. Their level of protection fails to meet the modern standards. The AH-1F/S payload is limited to 1500 kg, and only four or eight AGM-114 Hellfire guided missiles can be installed.
> 
> Pakistan is suffering from the lack of spare parts for Cobras. This technical problem reduces the effectiveness of the Pakistan`s combat helicopter fleet backbone. AH-1F/S are becoming obsolete, and the upgrade of the Cobras seems to be unpractical. Therefore, now Islamabad is feeling a deep need in new combat rotor-wing aircraft acquisition.
> 
> Pakistan is actively seeking new ways to get helicopters for the national armed forces. Having declined the appropriate Islamabad`s requests for several times, In April 2015 the U.S. State Department took the final decision to approve the sales of 15 AH-1Z Vipers to Pakistan (previously Washington had declined the appropriate request for the helicopters several times for the reasons of human rights infringement by Islamabad). AH-1Z payload (2620 kg) is at the level of *Mi-35V* and Mi-28NE. Nevertheless, the Viper`s ballistic and missile protection is weaker in comparison with the "Night Hunter". At the same time, the AH-1Z`s price tag is significantly higher than the *Mi-28NE*`s one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *CAIC Z-10 attack helicopter*
> 
> Pakistan is also conducting negotiations with China to acquire rotor-wing aircraft. In particular, Islamabad took the delivery of three Z-10 combat helicopters from Chinese company CAIC (Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation). Nevertheless, the combat effectiveness of these rotorcraft is being doubted by some Western analytics. They have never been tested in combat environment. Z-10 carries smaller payload (approximately 1500 kg) in comparison with Mi-35M, Mi-28NE, or AH-1Z. It is equipped with two WZ-9 engines, which come short of power in comparison with Russian Klimov VK-2500-2 and US General Electric T700-GE-401C. Being underpowered, Z-10 cannot fly with full payload.
> 
> Meanwhile, modern well-protected helicopters are strongly sought-for. According to the investigation conducted by US Department of Defence-led Joint Aircraft Survivability Program Office (JASPO) and Institute for Defence Analyses (IDA), man-portable air defence systems (MANPADS) and rocket-propelled RPG grenades pose the most significant threat to rotor-wing aircraft on the modern battlefield. JASPO and IDA have come to the conclusion, that in the course of Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom (in Afghanistan and Iraq, respectively) operations (OEF/OIF) between October 2001 and September 2009 combat losses (including aircraft shootdown by enemy fire) accounted for 19 % of all loses. Meanwhile, different mishaps accounted for the remaining 81 %. 73 % of fatalities occurred in combat theater. In total, 496 accidents took place within the prescribed period, and 375 rotor-wing aircraft were lost.
> 
> In comparison with the Vietnam War, the losses/flight time ratio reduced by seven times and consisted 2,71 lost helicopters for 100000 flight hours (reduction by seven times). Nevertheless, this figure excels the limit set by the US Congress and Pentagon (0,5 lost rotor-wing aircraft for 100000 flight hours).
> 
> The US armed forces have lost in combat 70 helicopters within the prescribed period. Different mishaps during combat during accounted for 157 rotor-wing aircraft. 148 more helicopters were lost in non-combat environment.
> 
> The losses of *AH-64A/AH-64D Apache Longbow* helicopters in the aforementioned conflicts are important for the estimation of modern helicopters` combat effectiveness on the battlefield. Between October, 2001 and September, 2009 11 AH-64s in Iraq and Afghanistan were lost due to the enemy fire: two in 2003, two in 2004, one in 2005, three in 2006, three in 2007. Different mishaps in combat environment accounted for 31 more Apaches: two in 2002, six in 2003, five in 2004, seven in 2005, four in 2006, six in 2007, and one in 2009. The US armed forces lost 26 rotor-wing aircraft in non-hostile environment within the prescribed period: seven in 2002, three in 2003, three in 2004, seven in 2005, two in 2006, three in 2007, and one in 2009. In total, the US armed forces lost 68 *AH-64A/AH-64D* between October, 2001 and September, 2009, including 11 in combat environment (16 %).
> 
> The ageing *AH-1 Cobra/Super Cobra* helicopters also suffered some combat losses during Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom, namely, five rotor-wing aircraft. One *AH-1* was lost in 2003, two in 2004, one in 2006, one in 2008. Non-hostile mishaps accounted for 5 Cobras: one in 2002, two in 2003, one in 2004, one in 2009. In total, the US armed forces lost 15 AH-1s between October 2001 and September 2009, including five in combat environment (33 %).
> 
> Modern researches point out the reduction of all types of rotor-wing aircraft losses in Iraq and Afghanistan in comparison with the Vietnam War. This trend was defined by the installation of new equipment and avionics, additional armour of cockpit, protected and shockproof fuel systems. In particular, UH-60 Blackhawk utility helicopter can fly for at least 30 minutes, having been hit by a single 7,62mm armour-piercing incendiary bullet. AH-64A/AH-64D`s armour protection is significantly heavier.
> 
> Small arms and light weapons (SALW) have been the most significant threat to the helicopters both in Vietnam and in Iraq/Afghanistan. SALW accounted for 94 % of combat losses during the Vietnam War and for 31 % during the OIF/OEF. SALW is supposed to be the most significant threat to rotor-wing aircraft in the years to come. The danger, emanating from MANPADS and rocket-propelled grenades has increased. Modern combat helicopters are heavily protected from bullets, meanwhile being relatively vulnerable to MANPDAS missiles.
> 
> Within the prescribed period the Iraqi and Afghanistan militants didn`t use radar-guided missile systems or anti-aircraft (AA) guns. The most powerful AA means, exploited by them, were MANPADS. Nevertheless, the sphere of the IS`s influence is spreading, and the terroristic group can get surface-to-air missile systems (SAM) in the near future, and the threat emanating from this kind of weapons may increase. Moreover, the video records produced by IS point out that the terrorists have weapons captured from the Iraqi government forces. Therefore, IS may obtain SAM systems. In this case Supercobras/Vipers and Mi-35Ms will remain short of *Mi-28NE*s and AH-64D/Es.
> 
> The US experts recommend equipping combat helicopters with electronic warfare systems, IR jammers and other countermeasures, flares, anti-blast seats for crew, threat detection systems, missile-warning equipment, and fly-by-wire systems. The upgrade of helicopters` crashworthiness level is also suggested. Therefore, Mi-28NEs being already equipped with the aforementioned hardware would have superiority over Mi-35Ms in fighting against IS in the regions of the Near East and Asia.
> 
> *Mi-35M* is the latest modification of the world-famous Hind, while Mi-28NE is a helicopter designed from the scratch with a glance to the Afghan war (1979-1989) combat experience. The conditions of this conflict are similar to those of war against the IS terroristic group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Boeing AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopter*
> 
> Mi-28NE`s gun weapon has several advantages over the Mi-35M`s one. Night Hunter is equipped with NPPU-28 gun mount with 30mm 2A42 gun (widely used in Russian armed forces BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicle is also equipped with 2A42 gun). Its ammunition load includes 300 rounds. 2A42 uses four types of ammunition, namely armour-piercing (AP) 3UBR6 and 3UBR8, high-explosive (HE) fragmentation incendiary 3UOF8, fragmentation incendiary 3UOR6. 3UBR6 and 3UBR8 shells can effectively hit armoured vehicles at the 1000 m and 1500 m, relatively. Foreign operators of 2A42 gun also have an option to use armour piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) shells produced by Swiss, Belgian, Bulgarian, Czech, and Slovak companies. 2A42 gun can hit personnel targets at the 2000-4000 m (depending on the type of shell).
> 
> In comparison with Night Hunter, the Mi-35M`s gun weapon is less powerful. The helicopter is equipped with NPPU-23 gun mount with 23mm GSh-23L gun. Its ammunition load includes 450 rounds. GSh-23L uses several types of ammunition, namely, HE tracer OFZ-23-AM-GSh, HE incendiary tracer OFZT-23-AM-GSh, AP incendiary tracer BZT-23-AM-GSh and BZT-23-GSH, HE incendiary FZ-23-GSh and FZ-23-GSh-N, AP explosive BR-23-AMGSh, multiple-element ME-23-GSh.
> 
> In the terms of armour penetration and behind-armour-effect, 23x115mm rounds of GSh-23L are inferior to 30x165mm rounds of 2A42. GSh-23L can hit hard targets at 1000-1500 m, and soft targets - at 2000 m. Only Russian and Chinese batch-produced aircraft are equipped with GSh-23/GH-23L. Therefore, the range of foreign ammunition types for the gun is restricted, and the aforementioned Russian rounds are delivered with helicopters and planes to foreign customers. GSh-23L has only one advantage over 2A42, namely, the ability to fire multiple-element round ME-23-GSh. It has a high degree of effectiveness against personnel targets and uncovered aircraft. Therefore, Mi-28N`s gun weapon is more effective in fighting against terroristic groups than the Mi-35M`s one.
> 
> The Night Hunter`s payload (2400 kg) significantly exceeds the Hind-M`s one (2100 kg). In addition to that, Mi-28NE can use more types of weapons.
> 
> Mi-35M`s range of armament subsystems includes UPK-23 gun pods with two GSh-23L guns (250 rounds per pod), B8V20-A 20-tube unguided rocket launchers for 80mm S-8 family of rockets, B13L1 5-tube unguided rocket launchers for 122mm S-13 family of rockets, up to 16 AT-6 Spiral or AT-9 Spiral-2 anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) in two pods. Mi-28NE can also use the aforementioned systems. While Mi-35M is equipped with AT-6 ATGMs as the standard anti-tank weapon, Mi-28NE uses AT-9. Night Hunter also can fire air-to-air 9M39 Igla-V missiles included in the Strelets system.
> 
> Mi-28NE`s level of protection significantly increases the Mi-35M`s one. In comparison with Mi-24V, Mi-35M`s armour hasn`t been essentially upgraded. During the Afghan war DShK, M2/M2HB machineguns, and ZGU-1, ZPU-1/ZPU-2/ZPU-4, ZU-23-2 AA guns posed the main threat to the Soviet Mi-24Vs. The aforementioned weapon can effectively hit not only the previous Hind modification, but also Mi-35Ms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *TAI T129 ATAK attack helicopter*
> 
> During the development of Mi-28NE, its designers payed significant attention to the helicopter`s ballistic protection. Two VK-2500-2 engines are separated and shielded by the airframe components. The blades of both main and auxiliary rotors are made of durable composites. The fueling, hydraulic, and pneumatic mains are duplicated. Moreover, the less important Mi-28NE`s subsystems cover the more important ones. The helicopter`s pore spaces are filled with foamed material. The crew received armoured cabin and anti-blast seats with parachute rescue system. Mi-28NE is equipped with inflatable air bags to prevent collision of the crew with landing gear in case of emergency escape. Special attention was payed to fire protection, namely, fuel tanks and inflammable sections. Mi-28NE is supposed to get energy-attenuating landing gear. The helicopter`s canopy and cabin are protected from 12,7mm AP and 20mm/23mm HE-I rounds. The rotor blades can withstand several hits of 30mm HE rounds. Therefore the Mi-28NE`s probability of being hit by heavy machinegun and small-caliber guns has been reduced. Therefore, ZU-23-2 (supposed to be the most widespread AA gun of IS) should spend significantly more time and rounds to shoot down Night Hunter.
> 
> Mi-28NE is also equipped with modern onboard defence system, which includes laser/radar warning system (there is an option of missile warning installation). To increase the chance of MANPADS missiles avoiding, President-S electronic jamming station can be optionally fitted.
> 
> The Mi-28NE`s endurance toward MANPADS missiles has significantly increased in comparison with Mi-35M. Modern insurgent and terroristic group are shoring up their anti-air defence systems. Previously they had Soviet SA-7 Grails and US FIM-92A Stingers. At the time, IS is supposed to have 250-400 MANPADS (including FIM-92, FN-6, SA-7, SA-18, SA-24) and huge numbers of ZU-23-2 AA gun, DShK and M2HB machineguns. SA-24 MANPADS, captured by IS terrorists from the Syrian government armed forces pose the most significant threat to combat helicopters. The Chinese FN-6 MANPADS, acquired by Qatar for the Free Syrian Army and subsequently handed over to IS, should not be underestimated. At least, one Iraqi Mi-35M equipped with Ukrainian KT-01-AVE Adros electronic jamming station was shot down by FN-6 in October, 2014. IS also has several 23mm ZSU-23-4 Shilka self-propelled AA guns and 57mm AZP-57 towing AA guns.
> 
> Therefore, the Islamic State is rapidly beefing up its air defence. The terrorist group is supposed to follow such a trend in the near future. As a result, the heavy-protected combat helicopters (for instance, Mi-28NE) are required by anti-IS government forces to carry on air strikes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mil Mi-28NE attack helicopter*
> 
> Pakistan is moving toward the acquisition of the Russian combat helicopters. During Dubai Airshow 2015 exhibition the Rostec Corporation`s director general Sergei Chemezov told, that Pakistan would start to receive the ordered Mi-35Ms in 2016. Islamabad gives a high rating to the Russian combat rotor-wing aircraft, as the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) state company`s head, Air Marshal Javaid Ahmed told the European Defence Review during the Dubai airshow. "_The quality of Russian defence production is outstanding,_" Ahmed said.
> 
> He pointed out, that Pakistan was working with Russian industry in several areas. "_I hope, we will see breakthrough on several issues in the following next months,_" he pointed out. "_Pakistan has recently acquired Russian Mi-35M combat helicopters. I suppose this deal is a king of progress _(in Russian-Pakistan relations)", Ahmed added.
> 
> The PAC`s head highly appreciated Russian rotor-wing aircraft. "_Previously, we acquired Mi-171 utility helicopters from Russia. They revealed to be reliable aircraft in our sandy climate conditions. We are reviewing some options to work closely with several Russian companies,_" Ahmed said.
> 
> He added, that Pakistan`s armed forces were demanding modern helicopters in relatively large quantities. "_We are extensively using our rotor-wing aircraft in operations against terrorists. To this end, we need every piece of Russian defense production_," the PAC`s head underscored.
> 
> Pakistan is ready to promote the military-technical cooperation with Russia, confirmed Pakistan Air Force`s (PAF) commander, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman during Dubai Airshow 2015. "_The PAF are open for cooperation, we are eager to establish good relationship with different countries_," Aman said. "_We are estimating the probability to fulfill several projects, including those with Russia,_" he added.
> 
> "_Why not? We should beef up relations with different countries, giving a helping hand and complementing each other. Aircraft engines constitute only one aspect of defense production. We should develop cooperation,_" Ahmed said. Therefore, the Pakistan military authorities are demonstrating their willingness to acquire and use Russian rotor-wing aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mil Mi-35M attack helicopter*
> 
> Taking into account the aforementioned data, several conclusions can be made. The modern battlefield requires for combat helicopters equipped with heavy ballistic protection and integrated EW suits. To hit armor and personnel targets effectively, these rotor-wing aircraft should have gun weapon, ATGMs, and unguided rockets. The required payload is supposed to be more, than 2000-2300 kg. The modern combat helicopters should be equipped with two spaced-apart engines, each having at least 2000 h.p.
> 
> Taking into account the financial constraints, as well as abovementioned requirements, Pakistan has only two options to be chosen from, namely, Russian Mi-28NE Night Hunter or US AH-1Z Viper. Both helicopters are at the same level in the terms of combat characteristics. Nevertheless, Mi-28NE has three key advantages over AH-1Z, namely, improved reliability in mountain and desert regions, less expensive life cycle cost, simplified requirements for crew training. In keeping with the aforementioned approach, the cost-effectiveness criterion seems to be the pivotal one, as different mishaps, not enemy fire account for most of combat helicopter losses on the modern battlefield.
> 
> The exploitation of AH-1Zs during OEF/OIF revealed that dust, sand and hot climate limited the operations of these helicopters. At the same time, Russian-made counterparts, namely, Mi-28NEs and Mi-35Ms presented themselves well in several countries of the Near East and Central Asia regions. On that premise, Russian combat helicopters seems to be the best option for the Pakistan`s armed forces in terms of fighting against terrorism.
> 
> *© Copyright 2015 TASS.*


We still running in circles it's 2020 now I hope Army would make her mind about Attack Heli Mi28 has same engine like Mi35 and Mi17 better procure it make badges like 15 Heli at one time and replace all cobras along unless Atak 2 with turkish engine not materialized


----------



## Shabi1

I believe reason AH-1Z was chosen was that they were financed by reimbursement funds which wont be released at least under Trump. If Pakistan has to pay approx $1bn from it's own pocket it would rather spend it on F-16 upgrades.

Reason why AH-1Z and T-129 are preferred are because they had better high altitude performance over the Chinese and Russian options which are apparently more heavily armored.

I think PA has to look at Jordan's AH-1 upgrade program which adds another 20yrs to the old airframes and avionics from the Zulu. Makes sense as gives a breathing space to wait for T-129s as well as if WZ-10 chosen can give us more time to ponder or request customization.

https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/modernised-cobras-give-rjaf-extra-bite.html
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-offer-big-capabilities-without-the-price-tag
Jordan is in the process of upgrading some of its AH-1F Cobra gunship helicopters to a new standard that incorporates many features similar, or outright identical, to those on the latest AH-1Z model. The update package could potentially serve as a model for other countries looking to upgrade their existing AH-1s or for military forces considering buying Cobras for the first time on the growing secondary market.

The Jordanian Air Force displayed one of the modified helicopters during the country’s biennial Special Operations Forces Exhibition, or SOFEX, which took place at Marka Airport in the capital Amman in May 2018. According to a report from Aviation International News, Jordan has taken delivery of two of the updated gunships from American contractor Science & Engineering Services (SES) for training purposes, but they will have to go back to the United States for additional live-fire testing.


PENTAGON TO SELL-OFF ITS AH-1W SUPER COBRA ATTACK HELICOPTER FLEETBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
WHOMP OVER THE DESERT FLOOR IN AN AH-1Z ATTACK HELICOPTERBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
 LATEST BELL UH-1Y "VENOM" VARIANT OF THE ICONIC HUEY FINDS AN EXPORT CUSTOMERBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
BLACKWATER FOUNDER'S PRIVATE AFGHAN AIR ARM PITCH INCLUDED AN-26 GUNSHIPS AND AH-1 COBRASBy Joseph TrevithickPosted in THE WAR ZONE
THE U.S. ARMY'S UH-60V BRINGS OLDER BLACK HAWKS INTO THE DIGITAL AGEBy Joseph TrevithickPosted in THE WAR ZONE
Jordan is looking to upgrade 12 AH-1Fs in total, but it has a number of additional E and F models in service, including 16 it acquired from Israel in 2015, that it could put through the update program if it chose to do so. We have reached out SES for additional information, but at the time of writing we had not yet heard back about our queries.


However many helicopters the Jordanian Air Force eventually decides to upgrade, they will be significantly more capable than they had been in their previous configurations. The new versions will feature an Integrated Avionics System from Northrop Grumman that is the same as the one found on the latest new production twin-engine AH-1Z Zulu Cobras, also known as Vipers, from Bell.





Armada International@arm_magazine
https://twitter.com/arm_magazine/status/996260499984547840

Royal Jordanian Air Force’s modernisation programme is upgrading 12 of its 20 Bell AH-1F/S Cobras, with one of the first on display at SOFEX 2018. https://armadainternational.com/2018/05/hellfire-compatible-cobra-on-display/?utm_source=twitter …





8
10:26 AM - May 15, 2018
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This suite has an LN-251 inertial navigation system using a fiber-optic gyroscope. It also replaces a number of analog systems in the front and rear cockpits with large flat-panel multi-function displays by L3. New AN/ARC-210 radios from Rockwell Collins round out the major cockpit updates.

This comprehensive upgrade significantly reduces strain on operators who no longer have to keep track of the readouts from a mix of analog gauges, optical scopes, and antiquated heads-up displays. The U.S. Army is putting its older UH-60 Black Hawks through a similar and relatively low-cost update program for many of the same reasons. 





Tyler Rogoway@Aviation_Intel
· Dec 31, 2017

Watch this Whisky Cobra make a gun and rocket attack as seen through the pilot's HUD (yes! The AH-1W had a HUD!)https://youtu.be/4NERBxn_nJU 



YouTube at ‎@YouTube






Tyler Rogoway@Aviation_Intel

Here's the HUD setup in the AH-1W.





36
5:42 AM - Dec 31, 2017
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The new Jordanian helicopters also have an improved OrbitalATK AN/AAR-47 missile approach warning system coupled with an Extant Aerospace AN/ALE-47 dispenser able to fire decoy flares and chaff. It’s not clear if there are any additional updates to the gunship’s defensive sensor suite and countermeasures systems planned for the future.






BELL
One of the cockpits of an AH-1Z showing the two main multi-function displays.

The most visible change is SES’ replacement of the original Telescopic Sight Unit, or TSU, with a new L3 Wescam MX-15D sensor turret, which is similar in both form and function to the Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-30A Target Sight System, or TSS, on the AH-1Z. The TSU was specifically for guiding the TOW anti-tank missile, an optically-tracked weapon that required the gunner to keep the sight on the target until the weapon hit its mark.

The new system contains both electro-optical and infrared cameras, as well as a laser designator. Not only does this combination of systems it make it more flexible than the older TSU, but it also greatly expands the crew's ability to use it for reconnaissance and surveillance missions, as well as target acquisition.


The new Jordanian AH-1s combine the new sensor system with Hellfire missiles and Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System II laser-guided rockets, or APKWS II,. This pairing will give the gunships good flexibility against a variety of different targets.

The ever-popular Hellfires already come in a number of different types. According to Jane's 360, Jordan will primarily use the AGM-114R variant, which combines an anti-tank warhead with a fragmentation sleeve for use against both armored vehicles and soft targets. Other options include the tandem-warhead AGM-114K, which has a better chance to defeat countermeasures such as explosive reactive armor, and the thermobaric AGM-114N, ideal for engaging unarmored vehicles and enemy personnel both out in the open and inside buildings. 






US ARMY
A breakdown of common Hellfire variants.

The smaller APKWS IIs mate a laser-guidance system to existing 70mm rockets and warheads, resulting in low-cost precision-guided munitions that can engage a variety of different targets. High explosive warheads are among the most common, but the U.S. military has begun building versions using the M282 warhead that has the ability to break through some armor and reinforced structures. 

The rockets also have a smaller warhead than the Hellfires, which has allowed other military forces, including U.S. special operations forces, to use them to engage relatively small targets, such as individual enemy fighters in doorways and windows. And Since the AH-1s will be able to carry pods with seven or 19 of these weapons on one pylon, instead of just four Hellfires, it will drastically increase the total number of targets they can engage before needing to rearm, as well. And there’s always the gunship’s 20mm M197 three-barrel cannon under the nose, too.


We don’t know the exact price Jordan is paying to upgrade each AH-1F, but it is very likely far cheaper than buying an AH-1Z straight off the production line. A new build Zulu Cobra costs more than $30 million, according to the U.S. military's latest budget request for the 2019 fiscal year.

The unit cost of an older twin-engine AH-1W when it rolled out of Bell Helicopter’s plant in 1986 was only around $22 million when adjusted for inflation to 2018 dollars. Single engine models such as the AH-1F were cheaper and the value of older Cobra types aircraft available on the secondary market is almost certain to have depreciated markedly. 






US ARMY
A Jordanian Air Force AH-1F in its standard configuration.

It’s also possible that these upgrades could lead to additional improvements as time goes on. The sensor turret mount especially is readily suitable to other L3 Wescam offerings that could either offer more _or_ less capability as desired. It’s not hard to see other new features, such as a directional infrared countermeasures system, or DIRCM, to defeat infrared-guided anti-aircraft missiles or a new gun system, becoming available for the AH-1 series later on.

Despite there being no takers so far, various companies have pitched up-gunning programs for decades already, including swapping out the M197 for the single-barrel 30mm M230 chain-gun found on the AH-64 Apache. The lightweight M230LF version that is now available would be even better suited to any AH-1 platform.






USMC
The M197 on an AH-1Z. 

As such, the upgrade package SES has put together for Jordanian Air Force, or a version thereof, could easily be a more cost-effective starting place for any country still operating older AH-1s or that is looking to do so. Jordan itself has donated AH-1Fs from its own stocks to other countries, such as Kenya and the Philippines.

More significantly, as the U.S. Marine Corps retires its AH-1Ws for good in favor of the AH-1Z, the U.S. military has begun actively looking for ways to modernize them for sale to foreign allies and partners. In December 2017, the Navy said it was interested in hiring a contractor specifically to install a new, commercially available off-the-shelf avionics update to help sweeten the deal, which sounds very much like what SES offered to Jordan.

As of May 24, 2018, there were already more than 30 “Whiskey Cobras” sitting at the Bone Yard at Davis Monthan Air Force Base in Arizona, according to a monthly U.S. Air Force inventory report. In March 2018, Brazil, which recently bought the helicopter carrier ex-HMS _Ocean_ from the United Kingdom, reportedly inquired about buying some of these gunships.

The United States has already had significant success selling off retired OH-58D Kiowa Warrior armed scout helicopters, particularly to allies in Europe and Africa. Combining AH-1Ws, or other second-hand Cobra types, with the SES upgrade package, could be an even more attractive option for small, cost-conscious military forces looking to bolster their capabilities.






USMC
A US Marine Corps AH-1W "Whiskey Cobra."

And countries that had expressed an interest in buying American gunship helicopters in the past, but may have been rebuked over human rights concerns and other issues, such as Nigeria, have found President Donald Trump administration much more willing to approve arms sales in general. Trump has even pushed for American diplomats to more actively promote American-made weapons.

There’s a distinct possibility that upgraded AH-1s similar to Jordan's new “AH-1Z Lite” gunships will end up in direct competition with the actual, production AH-1Zs. Bell has been steadily growing the Zulu Cobra customer base, but a lower cost alternative with many similar capabilities could definitely draw away potential buyers. If the cost is sufficiently low, the SES updated Cobras might also present some competition for other American-made and foreign light attack helicopters, as well.

It will definitely be interesting to keep an eye out for which countries decide to take the upgrade route and what Cobras they use as a starting place.

_Contact the author: jtrevithickpr@gmail.com_


Another possibility is US marines are considering selling surplus up gradable AH-1Ws once they get more AH-1Zs. PA built AH-1Zs are exactly US Marine specs so can be transferred to them and Pakistan can pick up cheaper yet upgraded with same tech AH-1Ws. The Zulu was originally a upgrade to the Whisky Cobra.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...its-ah-1w-super-cobra-attack-helicopter-fleet

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## Ahmet Pasha

Whatever we do US will continue to block arms to us. Mark my words.

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## Shabi1

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Whatever we do US will continue to block arms to us. Mark my words.


They only care about $$$ if we pay them they will sell.
Pakistan has learned the hard way that when you buy from US buy plenty of spares up front.

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## Ahmet Pasha

No that's the biggest khush fehmi you could ever make. Even if they do sell anything to you. They will use that to manipulate Pakistan for years.

And they will only sell non offensive systems in the first place.


Shabi1 said:


> They only care about $$$ if we pay them they will sell.
> Pakistan has learned the hard way that when you buy from US buy plenty of spares up front.

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## Shabi1

Ahmet Pasha said:


> No that's the biggest khush fehmi you could ever make. Even if they do sell anything to you. They will use that to manipulate Pakistan for years.
> 
> And they will only sell non offensive systems in the first place.


Are they manipulating right now?
They have sold offensive weapons and time have changed they don't hold monopoly on frontline systems.

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## Blacklight

Shabi1 said:


> Are they manipulating right now?
> They have sold offensive weapons and time have changed they don't hold monopoly on frontline systems.



Issue is that CSF is restricted to US eqpt.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bro we all know how the F16 is used as a needle to pinch Pakistani civ-mil leadership time and again.


Shabi1 said:


> Are they manipulating right now?
> They have sold offensive weapons and time have changed they don't hold monopoly on frontline systems.

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## Shabi1

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Bro we all know how the F16 is used as a needle to pinch Pakistani civ-mil leadership time and again.


Carrot and stick approach was there once and we learned our lessons, US is no longer our chief arms supplier. We've diversified to China, Italy, Turkey, France and S. Africa etc.. There are alternatives and local support infrastructure enough for if a door closes we wont be crippled. US knows it has lost the leverage it once had.

The do mores don't work anymore. Also the notion of kill switches went out of the window with Swift retort.

US now cares about Money, if you can pay you can buy. In our case unless subsidized by aid or reimbursement of coalition support funds we have cheaper options.

The stalemate is.
Pakistan: I will buy US products if subsidized or I'm reimbursed from my pending dues. Otherwise I can buy more quantity for the same amount elsewhere.
US: You have to pay the full amount for my overpriced hardware yourself else I won't sell.


Under the circumstances makes sense if Pakistan only buy upgrades for existing US hardware or buy their surplus hardware which are cheaper than alternatives.


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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> Issue is that CSF is restricted to US eqpt.


i heard hangers r being built in multan 
previously they didn’t had capacity to hold such expensive equipment

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## Pakistani Fighter

ali_raza said:


> i heard hangers r being built in multan


Maybe for Thunders


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## ali_raza

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Maybe for Thunders


nop
these r our choppers they will be stationed at multan

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## Pakistani Fighter

ali_raza said:


> nop
> these r our choppers they will be stationed at multan


AH1Zs or T129s?


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## ali_raza

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> AH1Zs or T129s?


ah1z 
turkish ones r past now

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## Pakistani Fighter

ali_raza said:


> ah1z
> turkish ones r past now


AH1Zs are coming but not T129s?


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## ali_raza

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> AH1Zs are coming but not T129s?


yes

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## Pakistani Fighter

ali_raza said:


> yes


Oh. Do you have any idea which is better T129 or Z10ME?


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## ali_raza

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Oh. Do you have any idea which is better T129 or Z10ME?


both r good in there own roles 
me personally would say z10me
cos without lehtec engine t129 is pretty much useless 
chinese meet and exceed turks in everything now

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## ziaulislam

ali_raza said:


> both r good in there own roles
> me personally would say z10me
> cos without lehtec engine t129 is pretty much useless
> chinese meet and exceed turks in everything now


So than why were t129 selected over z10s

And why are hangers being built now? What was army doing before all this fiasco?

Never liked the t129 deal.. Thought it was too expensive...

Zulus will not replace all the cobras whats the plan for that? Life extension? Uograde? Used cobras for usa EDA? Z10s?


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## ali_raza

ziaulislam said:


> So than why were t129 selected over z10s
> 
> And why are hangers being built now? What was army doing before all this fiasco?
> 
> Never liked the t129 deal.. Thought it was too expensive...
> 
> Zulus will not replace all the cobras whats the plan for that? Life extension? Uograde? Used cobras for usa EDA? Z10s?


calm down buddy 
engine was key to the performance 
no used cobras 
no life extension for now

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## Cuirassier

The economic downfall after '17 really ruined our plans.


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## Viper27

ziaulislam said:


> So than why were t129 selected over z10s
> 
> And why are hangers being built now? What was army doing before all this fiasco?
> 
> Never liked the t129 deal.. Thought it was too expensive...
> 
> Zulus will not replace all the cobras whats the plan for that? Life extension? Uograde? Used cobras for usa EDA? Z10s?



https://quwa.org/2018/02/20/pakistan-prepares-for-inducting-ah-1z-attack-helicopters/

Tenders for Zulu hangers were placed in 2018. This is not new. T-129 was a very good deal.


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## Blacklight

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Maybe for Thunders


Why would PAA do that, unless they are inducting thunder for CAS, which they are not.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> Why would PAA do that, unless they are inducting thunder for CAS, which they are not.


Sorry My Bad


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## Blacklight

ziaulislam said:


> So than why were t129 selected over z10s
> 
> And why are hangers being built now? What was army doing before all this fiasco?
> 
> Never liked the t129 deal.. Thought it was too expensive...
> 
> Zulus will not replace all the cobras whats the plan for that? Life extension? Uograde? Used cobras for usa EDA? Z10s?


I will try to answer, from what little I know:

Initially *Z10*'s were under powered, Z10ME is a serious upgrade, one which might make it to PAA after all.

*T-129* were selected, because of the good financial terms, limited ToT _(PAC would get to manufacture some parts, besides MRO capability_) and the understanding that Pakistan will not only be a customer, but a partner in ATAK-2. Due to the refusal of the US to grant an export license for the T-129's engine, everything has ground to a halt.
https://www.defense-aerospace.com/a...elopment-of-the-atak_2-attack-helicopter.html

*Zulus* - for now, if just the initial 15 make it would be a blessing. From what I hear delivery has been pushed back to Sept / Oct *tentatively. *Covid-19 is creating havoc everywhere.
*
Cobras* - As of now there are no plans to upgrade, but is a possibility. Same goes for EDA, but depending on Z-10's performance, they could ultimately replace them. Given the strings with CSF, maybe more Zulus, after all you need to spend your CSF some where.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> tentatively


means?


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## Blacklight

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> means?


subject to further confirmation; not definitely.

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## Ahmet Pasha

My guess is even if T129 base model doesn't come then the heavier ATAK will come with local engine.

Z10 didn't satisfy hot and high performance parameters. T129 has augusta westland dna which is famous for hot and high performance and mountain rescue.


Blacklight said:


> I will try to answer, from what little I know:
> 
> Initially *Z10*'s were under powered, Z10ME is a serious upgrade, one which might make it to PAA after all.
> 
> *T-129* were selected, because of the good financial terms, limited ToT _(PAC would get to manufacture some parts, besides MRO capability_) and the understanding that Pakistan will not only be a customer, but a partner in ATAK-2. Due to the refusal of the US to grant an export license for the T-129's engine, everything has ground to a halt.
> https://www.defense-aerospace.com/a...elopment-of-the-atak_2-attack-helicopter.html
> 
> *Zulus* - for now, if just the initial 15 make it would be a blessing. From what I hear delivery has been pushed back to Sept / Oct *tentatively. *Covid-19 is creating havoc everywhere.
> *
> Cobras* - As of now there are no plans to upgrade, but is a possibility. Same goes for EDA, but depending on Z-10's performance, they could ultimately replace them. Given the strings with CSF, maybe more Zulus, after all you need to spend your CSF some where.


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## mingle

Blacklight said:


> subject to further confirmation; not definitely.


Any tidbit about F16s??? Used new or upgrade??? I believe US will push pak for more Zulus may sweet thing with whisky cobras EDA along spares and Hellfire.if this happens PAA should buy it with expedite delivery time

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## nomi007

Defected Soviet MI-24 Hind assault helicopter flying out of Multan. Its defection was arranged by Pakistan's Intelligence agency through friendly Afghan defectors.

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## FuturePAF

Pakistan Army Aviation in Force





Source:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FWarplanePorn%252Fcomments%252Fg0mxga%252F

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## PanzerKiel

FuturePAF said:


> Pakistan Army Aviation in Force
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source:
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FWarplanePorn%252Fcomments%252Fg0mxga%252F



Their sequence in which they are flying, AH1 first, then the bigger ones at the back,in 3-4 ship formation, strongly suggests that they are part of our 23 Mar JS Parade, They all just took of from Dhamial Airbase (runway partially visible below), time is also early morning.

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## khail007

nomi007 said:


> Defected Soviet MI-24 Hind assault helicopter flying out of Multan. Its defection was arranged by Pakistan's Intelligence agency through friendly Afghan defectors.
> View attachment 624711


Sir G, is it recent or from decade of 80s?


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## PanzerKiel

PanzerKiel said:


> Their sequence in which they are flying, AH1 first, then the bigger ones at the back,in 3-4 ship formation, strongly suggests that they are part of our 23 Mar JS Parade, They all just took of from Dhamial Airbase (runway partially visible below), time is also early morning.



Same aircraft prior to take-off at Dhamial.

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## Viper27

khail007 said:


> Sir G, is it recent or from decade of 80s?



Old pic!

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## nomi007

Enstrom F-28

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## GriffinsRule

nomi007 said:


> Enstrom F-28


Missing a Cobra and AW139

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## nomi007

GriffinsRule said:


> Missing a Cobra and AW139


Last year no airshow was conducted


----------



## nomi007

Cobra AH-1F/S with Glass Cockpit?

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## syed_yusuf

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 625566
> 
> Cobra AH-1F/S with Glass Cockpit?


Upgraded in Pakistan?


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## fatman17

Z-10 engine maintenance, that four feet crane looks very cool. https://t.co/cSh09Q0Bc1

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## Ahmet Pasha

Cant post in T129 thread so posting here. Turkey is not just making Atak/attavk helicopters they are making Gokbey and Blackhawk/Puma/Mi17 class helicopter as well.

Giving us options to replace Alouette/Lama with Gokbey(pretty similar to AW139)and either replace or supplement the Mi17 with the new 20ton helo. Above all we might make inroads to making our own helicopters one day. We should pursue a family of helicopters instead of stand alone systems that dont really add to Pakistan's industrial base. We should also emphasize on at least asking TAI for local manufacturing of spare parts.

Also by going down the route of a family of helicopters the supply chain and economies of scale might also streamlined.

In the meantime as a stop gap I say double down on the Mi35 and also try to get Mi28 or Ka52. Russian attack helicopters have performed well throughout history and in Syria recently(granted it was mostly coin). Mi35, Mi28/Ka52s around 80 would pack a good punch. Rest to add numbers we could get Z10 or Atak variant maybe. 

We can still make good come out of this stagnation and U.S deceit. If we play it right.

Some gora contractor did glass cockpit work on Mushaks so maybe same contractor.


syed_yusuf said:


> Upgraded in Pakistan?

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## JPMM

Cross training in RCA, Portuguese Paras with Pakistani Choppers
Good detail of interior Mi-171





__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## fatman17

Retired airframes used for training purposes

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## PanzerKiel

fatman17 said:


> Retired airframes used for training purposes
> View attachment 634250
> View attachment 634251
> View attachment 634252



NCTC Pabbi

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## Robin rone

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 625566
> 
> Cobra AH-1F/S with Glass Cockpit?

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## nomi007



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## ali_raza

nomi007 said:


>


i think its beach craft something but its used for wht exactly


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## Phantom.

ali_raza said:


> i think its beach craft something but its used for wht exactly


Its used for ISR and SIGINT.

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## Viper27

ali_raza said:


> i think its beach craft something but its used for wht exactly



One of these crashed recently. How many do we have now?


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## JPMM

One more "Search & Destroy" in RCA, Pak MI-17 above (with PoAF FAC on board) & Portuguese Paras on the ground. (Pandur+Armoured Hummer)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266015979546595329

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## monitor

Somewhere in America. 




12 Bel AH-1Z made for Pakistan army rotting in bonyard in Arizona's desert.

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## Viper27

monitor said:


> View attachment 636670
> 
> Somewhere in America.
> View attachment 636671
> 
> 12 Bel AH-1Z made for Pakistan army rotting in bonyard in Arizona's desert.



Quite well preserved actually.

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## nomi007

monitor said:


> View attachment 636670
> 
> Somewhere in America.
> View attachment 636671
> 
> 12 Bel AH-1Z made for Pakistan army rotting in bonyard in Arizona's desert.


share source link.


----------



## monitor

Viper27 said:


> Quite well preserved actually.


Yes they are 


nomi007 said:


> share source link.







__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2284357815205903

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## fatman17

ali_raza said:


> i think its beach craft something but its used for wht exactly


ISR

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## Imran Khan

monitor said:


> Yes they are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2284357815205903


history is repeating itself . us weapons lovers can eat few grams of poison now 



monitor said:


> View attachment 636670
> 
> Somewhere in America.
> View attachment 636671
> 
> 12 Bel AH-1Z made for Pakistan army rotting in bonyard in Arizona's desert.


some people in pakistan need brains

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## ARMalik

monitor said:


> Yes they are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2284357815205903



Such a shame that beautiful pieces of military hardware are sitting like this, and will eventually rot in this desert. Such an event only happens when there is intense disdain, and frankly US disdains Pakistan. The Military Generals here need to get some self-respect, and stop buying anything US. But maybe I am expecting too much, these people will never change, and will never have self- respect.

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## SD 10

Imran Khan said:


> history is repeating itself . us weapons lovers can eat few grams of poison now
> 
> 
> some people in pakistan need brains


But we never learn. They know if today they offer us anything then our leaders will start jumping with excitement!!!!!

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## Imran Khan

ARMalik said:


> Such a shame that beautiful pieces of military hardware are sitting like this, and will eventually rot in this desert. Such an event only happens when there is intense disdain, and frankly US disdains Pakistan. The Military Generals here need to get some self-respect, and stop buying anything US. But maybe I am expecting too much, these people will never change, and will never have self- respect.


pakistan have stopped new purchasing from USA 5 years . in recent we see first time they orders SNIPER PODS . pakistan is away from US now a days but i am scared they will order agaiin something .

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## python-000

Bro, we made atombomb for our defence BUT we cant design & develop our own attack helicopter & now its do & die situation we cant get mi-28 from Russia, zulu stuck in America, T-129 stuck in Turkey because engine issue & what status about Z-10ME from China we dont know but the is so precious now. Dose some one tell about Pakistan Attack helicopters procurement current situation...


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## Blacklight

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan have stopped new purchasing from USA 5 years . in recent we see first time they orders SNIPER PODS . pakistan is away from US now a days but i am scared they will order agaiin something .


Brother, this is one way of getting what is rightfully yours i.e. CSF.

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## Imran Khan

Blacklight said:


> Brother, this is one way of getting what is rightfully yours i.e. CSF.


CSF have always created so many issues . its not first time nor last time we have been mistreated for CSF sir .

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## ali_raza

Imran Khan said:


> history is repeating itself . us weapons lovers can eat few grams of poison now
> 
> 
> some people in pakistan need brains


bhai pese diye ni jate
maal expect kerte ha ham



Imran Khan said:


> CSF have always created so many issues . its not first time nor last time we have been mistreated for CSF sir .


we never should have gave americans free hand about paying csf.
mushi was too reluctant to even ask cos in bush era americans were filthy rich and flashing money like crazy 
they thought gravy train will continue 
which haulted somewhere around obl deal then horse trading started and trump put complete ban on it
now we r stuck
9-11 billion of our rightful money is in americans hands
cos they r till today using our facilities

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## Imran Khan

ali_raza said:


> bhai pese diye ni jate
> maal expect kerte ha ham
> 
> 
> we never should have gave americans free hand about paying csf.
> mushi was too reluctant to even ask cos in bush era americans were filthy rich and flashing money like crazy
> they thought gravy train will continue
> which haulted somewhere around obl deal then horse trading started and trump put complete ban on it
> now we r stuck
> 9-11 billion of our rightful money is in americans hands
> cos they r till today using our facilities


lets be honest despite everyone was crying of another pressler-2 is coming pakistnai military planners were dancing on US songs . a blind can see sanctions are coming on CSF but these guys can not . now we are in deep mess of aviation choppers .

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## ali_raza

Imran Khan said:


> lets be honest despite everyone was crying of another pressler-2 is coming pakistnai military planners were dancing on US songs . a blind can see sanctions are coming on CSF but these guys can not . now we are in deep mess of aviation choppers .


lets just say we never lost a penny for thise choppers
much better then giving 600million for peace gates

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## Imran Khan

ali_raza said:


> lets just say we never lost a penny for thise choppers
> much better then giving 600million for peace gates


and what about choppers plan which is damaged sir ???????? its still our loss .

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## CHI RULES

python-000 said:


> Bro, we made atombomb for our defence BUT we cant design & develop our own attack helicopter & now its do & die situation we cant get mi-28 from Russia, zulu stuck in America, T-129 stuck in Turkey because engine issue & what status about Z-10ME from China we dont know but the is so precious now. Dose some one tell about Pakistan Attack helicopters procurement current situation...


The news is there that one year time span requested and given to Turkish supplier for T129, after that Pak shall take any other decision.


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## Blacklight

Imran Khan said:


> and what about choppers plan which is damaged sir ???????? its still our loss .


Capability gap.

Well that is up to our decision makers, to be pro active, instead of reactive.

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## ali_raza

Imran Khan said:


> and what about choppers plan which is damaged sir ???????? its still our loss .


for that they had a choice atak or chinese option


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## Imran Khan

ali_raza said:


> for that they had a choice atak or chinese option


they dont have any of them now otherwise cobras were not flying . what next ?


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## ali_raza

Imran Khan said:


> they dont have any of them now otherwise cobras were not flying . what next ?


cobras were out of this competition 
we messed up on our own 
cobra is different program all together


----------



## nomi007

Remember 1 thing.
The USA will ask Pakistan to Pay Parking rent of AH-1z's

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## Ali_Baba

nomi007 said:


> Remember 1 thing.
> The USA will ask Pakistan to Pay Parking rent of AH-1z's



Yes, and charge 7 arms and legs to get them back to flight ready status. Best to leave them where they are and the Americans can eat the cost of their decision on this front...


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## nomi007

Ali_Baba said:


> Yes, and charge 7 arms and legs to get them back to flight ready status. Best to leave them where they are and the Americans can eat the cost of their decision on this front...


These are World most advanced helicopters. even better than apache in many ways.
so bus dua karo mil jahain

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## Imran Khan

after very long time paksitan army bell-206B jet ranger seen flying yesterday 1 June for spraying locust control operation .

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## python-000

Salam to all, dear all in this current cenario i am quite amazed to see that the pin drop silent from Pakistan on Attack helicopters issue BUT why what options do we have on urgent situation PAKISTAN despritaly needed Advance Attack helicopters...


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## Pakistani Fighter

nomi007 said:


> even better than apache in many ways.


Can you elaborate


----------



## Blacklight

@DESERT FIGHTER @airomerix @Tipu7 @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Caprxl @Foxtrot Alpha @Slav Defence @Sulman Badshah 

The first two have landed in Pak Watan. The deliveries have started. Who will be posting the first pics?

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## Flight of falcon

Awsome news......can't wait for them to fly loaded with 16 Hellfires pointing at the Indian armor

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @airomerix @Tipu7 @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Caprxl @Foxtrot Alpha @Slav Defence @Sulman Badshah
> 
> The first two have landed in Pak Watan. The deliveries have started. Who will be posting the first pics?


Oh Boy. I think you are the @Khafee



Blacklight said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @airomerix @Tipu7 @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Caprxl @Foxtrot Alpha @Slav Defence @Sulman Badshah
> 
> The first two have landed in Pak Watan. The deliveries have started. Who will be posting the first pics?


@PanzerKiel

@StormBreaker I think 80% that @Blacklight is actually @Khafee

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## StormBreaker



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## Safriz

Blacklight said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @airomerix @Tipu7 @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Caprxl @Foxtrot Alpha @Slav Defence @Sulman Badshah
> 
> The first two have landed in Pak Watan. The deliveries have started. Who will be posting the first pics?


کس نے بتایا آپ کو ۔



Blacklight said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @airomerix @Tipu7 @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Caprxl @Foxtrot Alpha @Slav Defence @Sulman Badshah
> 
> The first two have landed in Pak Watan. The deliveries have started. Who will be posting the first pics?


The fist two of what?
Please explain

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## Pinnacle

Safriz said:


> The fist two of what?
> Please explain


AH-1Z Viper aka ZULU

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## Pakistani Fighter

Atleast 8 more Zulus need to be ordered. Rest can be taken care by T129/Z10ME



Safriz said:


> کس نے بتایا آپ کو


He is @Khafee

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## Safriz

danish falcon said:


> AH-1Z Viper aka ZULU


Well this was their last picture. 12 cocooned at Arizona boneyard.

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## Blacklight

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Atleast 8 more Zulus need to be ordered. Rest can be taken care by T129/Z10ME
> 
> 
> He is @Khafee


No my source is better than Khafee

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> No my source is better than Khafee


8 should be ordered more atleast

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## Pinnacle

Safriz said:


> Well this was their last picture. 12 cocooned at Arizona boneyard.
> 
> View attachment 641455


I see 10 now. you will soon too

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## Blacklight

Safriz said:


> کس نے بتایا آپ کو ۔


وردی والا مجاہد


Safriz said:


> کس نے بتایا آپ کو ۔
> 
> 
> The fist two of what?
> Please explain


Ah-1Z's

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> وردی والا مجاہد
> 
> Ah-1Z's


Can I make a thread on it?


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## StormBreaker

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Can I make a thread on it?


@Counter-Errorist @Blacklight @Foxtrot Alpha

Since the timings aren’t good for the delivery (economic crisis), Public domain would be fed with cherry picked news by media outlets.

So @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , Once this thing gets confirmed officially, Draft a News article, An official Press Release by *PDF. First get it checked by someone here in admin/moderation for any censorship, Then Also suggest modifications to the language, Your prime Objective is not news, But NEWS in A PROPER MANNER unlike normal media outlets that will use this as an anti army card. I will also suggest modifications from my side if you consider me capable of it once you write it, Then publish it in PDM, @WebMaster This should be given an exclusive thread once ready and must be pushed everywhere the PDF style.

Design it in a way that the title is somewhat 

“Back Finally, After a delivery halt of 2 years, Paid by CSF in 20xx, PA recieves delivery of AH-1Z Vipers from USA”

And @jaibi @Foxtrot Alpha , You guys must take care of it on the Social media handles, That the news goes like what I explained. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Can write a good article, With all the above necessary explanations of the delivery situation and how coincidentally we recieve them now, So as to avoid Public backlash and Media outlets going all godzilla over Army and Defence budget (already this hype is on)

Protection of Military Image is important for us, Rest all can go to hell...*

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## Pakistani Fighter

StormBreaker said:


> Design it in a way that the title is somewhat
> 
> “Back Finally, After a delivery halt of 2 years, Paid by CSF in 20xx, PA recieves delivery of AH-1Z Vipers from USA”


No. Write like "Nightmare of Indian Armored Brigade arrives in Pakistan"

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## StormBreaker

Pakistani Fighter said:


> No. Write like "Nightmare of Indian Armored Brigade arrives in Pakistan"


Those are the keypoints bro, Not the title heading. If it was, It would sound absurd

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## Blacklight

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Can I make a thread on it?


That would be @WebMaster and admin teams domain. I cannot comment.

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## khanasifm

Blacklight said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @airomerix @Tipu7 @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Caprxl @Foxtrot Alpha @Slav Defence @Sulman Badshah
> 
> The first two have landed in Pak Watan. The deliveries have started. Who will be posting the first pics?



pak army /PAA

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## Pakistani Fighter

Waiting for Upgraded F16s with AIM120Ds

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## mingle

Blacklight said:


> No my source is better than Khafee


Thank you Sir

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## Flight of falcon

I think announcing the arrival is no big deal. People know about these stuck helicopters and will see it as our victory over the USA. We should have a ceremony to announce their arrival.

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## Safriz

More reasons to hate the army for the Pakistani zee TV generation .
Oh army 80% budget Khaa gaee

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## jaibi

Agreed and you're going to be a part of that process too as we talked about. 


StormBreaker said:


> @Counter-Errorist @Blacklight @Foxtrot Alpha
> 
> Since the timings aren’t good for the delivery (economic crisis), Public domain would be fed with cherry picked news by media outlets.
> 
> So @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , Once this thing gets confirmed officially, Draft a News article, An official Press Release by *PDF. First get it checked by someone here in admin/moderation for any censorship, Then Also suggest modifications to the language, Your prime Objective is not news, But NEWS in A PROPER MANNER unlike normal media outlets that will use this as an anti army card. I will also suggest modifications from my side if you consider me capable of it once you write it, Then publish it in PDM, @WebMaster This should be given an exclusive thread once ready and must be pushed everywhere the PDF style.
> 
> Design it in a way that the title is somewhat
> 
> “Back Finally, After a delivery halt of 2 years, Paid by CSF in 20xx, PA recieves delivery of AH-1Z Vipers from USA”
> 
> And @jaibi @Foxtrot Alpha , You guys must take care of it on the Social media handles, That the news goes like what I explained. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Can write a good article, With all the above necessary explanations of the delivery situation and how coincidentally we recieve them now, So as to avoid Public backlash and Media outlets going all godzilla over Army and Defence budget (already this hype is on)
> 
> Protection of Military Image is important for us, Rest all can go to hell...*

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## Blacklight

Flight of falcon said:


> I think announcing the arrival is no big deal. People know about these stuck helicopters and will see it as our victory over the USA. We should have a ceremony to announce their arrival.


Whether PA announces or not. India knows, and this creates a new headache for Indian Mil Planners.

As you rightly said, we should go ahead and get maximum positive coverage out of this.



Safriz said:


> More reasons to hate the army for the Pakistani zee TV generation .
> Oh army 80% budget Khaa gaee


ISPR should just release a presser - *Paid by CSF, for services already rendered*.

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## Safriz

Blacklight said:


> Whether PA announces or not. India knows, and this creates a new headache for Indian Mil Planners.
> 
> As you rightly said, we should go ahead and get maximum positive coverage out of this.
> 
> 
> ISPR should just release a presser - *Paid by CSF, for services already rendered*.


ISPR is not very good at PR

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> headache for Indian Mil Planners.


Poor T90s, T72s, Arjuns and BMP 2s

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## Flight of falcon

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Oh Boy. I think you are the @Khafee
> 
> 
> @PanzerKiel
> 
> @StormBreaker I think 80% that @Blacklight is actually @Khafee




I know Khafee very well.

He first mentioned the date of May arrival which obviously due to COVID got delayed a bit. My friend in the army aviation also confirmed back in Dec that they were expecting them to arrive in April.

By the way, if these helicopters are delivered then we can expect the opening of other channels, and the news of F16s deal will certainly be true.

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## mingle

Flight of falcon said:


> I know Khafee very well.
> 
> He first mentioned the date of May arrival which obviously due to COVID got delayed a bit. My friend in the army aviation also confirmed back in Dec that they were expecting them to arrive in April.
> 
> By the way, if these helicopters are delivered then we can expect the opening of other channels, and the news of F16s deal will certainly be true.


Now every one claiming the victory give credit to guy where it due @Khafee



Pakistani Fighter said:


> Poor T90s, T72s, Arjuns and BMP 2s


It's 1000 Hellfire missiles are coming along

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## Caprxl

StormBreaker said:


> @Counter-Errorist @Blacklight @Foxtrot Alpha
> 
> Since the timings aren’t good for the delivery (economic crisis), Public domain would be fed with cherry picked news by media outlets.
> 
> So @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , Once this thing gets confirmed officially, Draft a News article, An official Press Release by *PDF. First get it checked by someone here in admin/moderation for any censorship, Then Also suggest modifications to the language, Your prime Objective is not news, But NEWS in A PROPER MANNER unlike normal media outlets that will use this as an anti army card. I will also suggest modifications from my side if you consider me capable of it once you write it, Then publish it in PDM, @WebMaster This should be given an exclusive thread once ready and must be pushed everywhere the PDF style.
> 
> Design it in a way that the title is somewhat
> 
> “Back Finally, After a delivery halt of 2 years, Paid by CSF in 20xx, PA recieves delivery of AH-1Z Vipers from USA”
> 
> And @jaibi @Foxtrot Alpha , You guys must take care of it on the Social media handles, That the news goes like what I explained. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Can write a good article, With all the above necessary explanations of the delivery situation and how coincidentally we recieve them now, So as to avoid Public backlash and Media outlets going all godzilla over Army and Defence budget (already this hype is on)
> 
> Protection of Military Image is important for us, Rest all can go to hell...*



Alright, I think brother deserves a +'ve Rating on it. Someone please,

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## StormBreaker

Caprxl said:


> Alright, I think brother deserves a +'ve Rating on it. Someone please,


Nahh


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## Imran Khan

Blacklight said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @airomerix @Tipu7 @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Caprxl @Foxtrot Alpha @Slav Defence @Sulman Badshah
> 
> The first two have landed in Pak Watan. The deliveries have started. Who will be posting the first pics?


i told you tag me sir
BTW i have heard few months ago too that they landed then we find them in arizona  . show us now a pic so we shut up sir

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## Ultima Thule

Imran Khan said:


> i told you tag me sir
> BTW i have heard few months ago too that they landed then we find them in arizona  . show us now a pic so we shut up sir


probably
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/rumo...j-super-hercules.670286/page-27#post-12428337

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## Caprxl

StormBreaker said:


> Nahh



It's alright to be kind & humble of you but already Fasadis are making a mountain out of mole hill of Defence budget & lads are continuously busting them.

So in my personal opinion, you very well raised a valid point. Consider yourself ACES in my book.

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## FuturePAF

JPMM said:


> Cross training in RCA, Portuguese Paras with Pakistani Choppers
> Good detail of interior Mi-171
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/



A little off topic, but the Army should have a large number of officers that speak these foreign languages to better deal with these foreign countries. In a multi-polar world, every little bit of extra to build nation to nation ties, which could help Pakistan build economic ties. It also helps to know what these other countries are thinking when they are speaking their own languages in front of our forces.

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## mingle

IAU said:


> probably
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/rumo...j-super-hercules.670286/page-27#post-12428337
> View attachment 641465


This is old pic


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## Caprxl

Blacklight said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @airomerix @Tipu7 @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Caprxl @Foxtrot Alpha @Slav Defence @Sulman Badshah
> 
> The first two have landed in Pak Watan. The deliveries have started. Who will be posting the first pics?



Thanks brother for the update. So when I mentioned why IL-78 were in USA when C130 took Covid supplies, I was right to suspect that something was going on. 
Let us see who brings the Images 



mingle said:


> Now every one claiming the victory give credit to guy where it due @Khafee



I think he should not be banned anymore But maybe PDF team is waiting for the major Viper News to come true before taking this step.

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## StormBreaker

Caprxl said:


> It's alright to be kind & humble of you but already Fasadis are making a mountain out of mole hill of Defence budget & lads are continuously busting them.
> 
> So in my personal opinion, you very well raised a valid point. Consider yourself ACES in my book.


Honored

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## Flight of falcon

Caprxl said:


> Thanks brother for the update. So when I mentioned why IL-78 were in USA when C130 took Covid supplies, I was right to suspect that something was going on.
> Let us see who brings the Images
> 
> 
> 
> I think he should not be banned anymore But maybe PDF team is waiting for the major Viper News to come true before taking this step.




I really dont think he gives a flying f... if those who banned him will take him back. He is at a different level than 97 percent of posters here.... Believe him or not it makes no difference in any ones life.

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## Ultima Thule

mingle said:


> This is old pic


did you read the post link i posted sir its said rumors and this not my post sir its a @Muhammad Omar post in C-130J thread sir, and this pics is for just a reference

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## mingle

Caprxl said:


> Thanks brother for the update. So when I mentioned why IL-78 were in USA when C130 took Covid supplies, I was right to suspect that something was going on.
> Let us see who brings the Images
> 
> 
> 
> I think he should not be banned anymore But maybe PDF team is waiting for the major Viper News to come true before taking this step.


There should be some punishment on those accounts too who went after him??

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## Sunny4pak

Imran Khan said:


> i told you tag me sir
> BTW i have heard few months ago too that they landed then we find them in arizona  . show us now a pic so we shut up sir



Sir, AH1Z and T129s with US Engines would come InshaAllah, Mark my words. Sooner or later.

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## Imran Khan

IAU said:


> probably
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/rumo...j-super-hercules.670286/page-27#post-12428337
> View attachment 641465


like this we have tons of pics we need like this one

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## StormBreaker

Sunny4pak said:


> Sir, AH1Z and T129s with US Engines would come InshaAllah, Mark my words. Sooner or later.


You have a responsibility to attend to now !!!

Remember my above post on the thread, make a relevant Youtube video, Thumbnail and title should be Pro Army Stance



Evora said:


> Lol USA also confirmed deliveries of two dozens apaches helis as freebies along with zulus to make pdf amateur kids get more happy and excited.
> My source is also the same insider who break the delivery news of 2 zulus.
> Lets dance


Source


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## Ultima Thule

Imran Khan said:


> like this we have tons of pics we need like this one


Its not post sir its a @Muhammad Omar post sir on C-130J thread sir, and yet not single pic of viper that landed in Pakistan sir, this image is just for reference sir



StormBreaker said:


> You have a responsibility to attend to now !!!
> 
> Remember my above post on the thread, make a relevant Youtube video, Thumbnail and title should be Pro Army Stance
> 
> 
> Source


currently its just a rumors no pic yet that viper has been landed in Pakistan sir

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## StormBreaker

IAU said:


> Its not post sir its a @Muhammad Omar post sir on C-130J thread sir, and yet not single pic of viper that landed in Pakistan sir, this image is just for reference sir


Aagaya tu jawan hoke

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## Ultima Thule

StormBreaker said:


> Aagaya tu jawan hoke


Na bhai hhum tu aderh umar keh hain bhai
wo gana tu sona ho tum ne
abhi tu me jawan hoon
hum jawan nahi hain bhai ab

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## Imran Khan

StormBreaker said:


> Aagaya tu jawan hoke


sab ke pass source hai yahan per siway hamary

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## Ultima Thule

Imran Khan said:


> sab ke pass source hai yahan per siway hamary


 no bhai kesi ke pass hi abhi tak confirmation nahi hai bus sub rumors hain abhi tak


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## TsAr

Imran Khan said:


> sab ke pass source hai yahan per siway hamary


AP Cynthia Ritchie sa rabta karain khabaron ka liye



Caprxl said:


> Thanks brother for the update. So when I mentioned why IL-78 were in USA when C130 took Covid supplies, I was right to suspect that something was going on.
> Let us see who brings the Images
> 
> 
> 
> I think he should not be banned anymore But maybe PDF team is waiting for the major Viper News to come true before taking this step.


Some of the egos here won't still acknowledge the fact...

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## Caprxl

mingle said:


> There should be some punishment on those accounts too who went after him??





TsAr said:


> Some of the egos here won't still acknowledge the fact...


That my friend is Dark Web of PDF  Those Were the dark days, I was there

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## mingle

Caprxl said:


> That my friend is Dark Web of PDF  Those Were the dark days, I was there
> View attachment 641485


There is nothing wrong having an ego but went after someone you disagree is bad



Sunny4pak said:


> Sir, AH1Z and T129s with US Engines would come InshaAllah, Mark my words. Sooner or later.


Sunny I doubt T129 engines if we get them it's great problem solved but it will be pure business decision by US.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Jab aye ga to dekhi jaye gi
Believe it when I see it.


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## python-000

What status of Z-10ME from China & we can also go for these from Russia.

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## Ahmet Pasha

This or the Ka52 alligator.


python-000 said:


> What status of Z-10ME from China & we can also go for these from Russia.
> View attachment 641505


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## FuturePAF

python-000 said:


> What status of Z-10ME from China & we can also go for these from Russia.
> View attachment 641505


We should work on inducting the AH-1Z and wait till the Turks finish the ATAK 2 heavy attack helicopter program. The Turks found out relations with the Russians can also change quickly, which could so be a similar case for Pakistan over the next few years based on how Afghanistan develops. We even get our Russians made RD-93 formally through China to ensure they are delivered. Turkey is a more reliable supplier, especially consider all the other big deals we have going with them. Besides, we could try to get some ToT from the Turks similar to what we are doing with the Milgem if we are the launch customer.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

It further shows the US policy makers aren't facilitating any Indo-Pak conflict! They would like India to channel all of her energies and wealth toward resisting China. And, they're playing the old tricks...

The current scenario is like a double-up for Pak....

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

mingle said:


> There is nothing wrong having an ego but went after someone you disagree is bad
> 
> 
> Sunny I doubt T129 engines if we get them it's great problem solved but it will be pure business decision by US.


I am pretty sure Pak will go for T629, ATAK II, Gokbey etc., and the entire ecosystem! Not to mention the production facility like MILGEM...

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## Amaa'n

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Atleast 8 more Zulus need to be ordered. Rest can be taken care by T129/Z10ME
> 
> 
> He is @Khafee


Bhai if he is @Khafee tou es mein konsi tension ki baat hai....??

Hes more than welcome on forum

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## Sunny4pak

python-000 said:


> What status of Z-10ME from China & we can also go for these from Russia.
> View attachment 641505


Z10ME will be considered only in case of T129, deal failure.



mingle said:


> *Sunny I doubt T129 engines if we get them it's great problem solved but it will be a pure business decision by US.*


Yes, that is the reason I am hopeful for the release of engines for t129. but in case US delivers all AH1Z then I think PA should wait and see for ATAK II with Local Engine from 2025 onward.



StormBreaker said:


> You have a responsibility to attend to now !!!
> 
> Remember my above post on the thread, make a relevant Youtube video, Thumbnail and title should be Pro Army Stance
> 
> 
> Source


I made a video on this topic earlier and did mention that AH1Z would be in Pakistan, furthermore are you referring to Military Budget?


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## Caprxl

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Hes more than welcome on forum


Sorry brother, I am having comprehension issues, you are welcoming Khafee back on PDF? Or did I get it wrong?


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## Evora

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271862004316340232

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## untitled

Sensitive content for whom?


----------



## nomi007



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## Cuirassier

Panzer Sqn's dreams come true [emoji14]

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## Rocky rock

2 AH-1z viper Arrived Pakistan through IL-78MP from Baltimore USA.


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## Areesh

untitled said:


> View attachment 641563
> Sensitive content for whom?



Pajeets

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## Cookie Monster

Blacklight said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @airomerix @Tipu7 @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Caprxl @Foxtrot Alpha @Slav Defence @Sulman Badshah
> 
> The first two have landed in Pak Watan. The deliveries have started. Who will be posting the first pics?


Any possibility u can shine some light on the long term plan?

As in besides the Zulus...where would Pak go?
--> T129? Or Z10ME? Or both?


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## Fighting Falcon 01

Areesh said:


> Pajeets


In just a few hours these guys will spam this thread with Apache vs Ah1z and that Apache is better and they have LCH and other bs .....

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## araz

Flight of falcon said:


> I really dont think he gives a flying f... if those who banned him will take him back. He is at a different level than 97 percent of posters here.... Believe him or not it makes no difference in any ones life.


This thread is not about the banning of @Khafee. Please confine yourself to the topic at hand. As mentioned before we do not know why he was banned but that is an administrative matter. If you want to discuss his unbanning please open a thread in the social section.
Congrats to everyone including @Khafee and @Blacklight for the scoop.
A

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## Pakistani Fighter

untitled said:


> Sensitive content for whom?


Indian Armour Brigades



araz said:


> we do not know why he was banned


religious issue

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## untitled

Rocky rock said:


> 2 AH-1z viper Arrived Pakistan through IL-78MP from Baltimore USA.
> View attachment 641572
> View attachment 641573


Are these pics from Pakistan?



Areesh said:


> Pajeets


For some reason that name always sounded more Sikh than RSS'y


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## Pakistani Fighter

untitled said:


> sounded more Sikh


Its Paaji


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## untitled

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Its Paaji


Seen a lot of Sikh names ending with -eet


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## Muhammad Omar

IAU said:


> Its not post sir its a @Muhammad Omar post sir on C-130J thread sir, and yet not single pic of viper that landed in Pakistan sir, this image is just for reference sir
> 
> 
> currently its just a rumors no pic yet that viper has been landed in Pakistan sir



Someone just send me a link on my page on Facebook that AH1z landed in Pakistan on 13 June. Then I went to this page and asked in C130J about how much these guys are reliable?? There's a world defense forum as well 





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2671503406472841

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## fatman17

Link doesn't work


Muhammad Omar said:


> Someone just send me a link on my page on Facebook that AH1z landed in Pakistan on 13 June. Then I went to this page and asked in C130J about how much these guys are reliable?? There's a world defense forum as well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2671503406472841


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## Sunny4pak

Rocky rock said:


> 2 AH-1z viper Arrived Pakistan through IL-78MP from Baltimore USA.
> View attachment 641572
> View attachment 641573


Sir Sorry to say, but the above pic is from US (though Pakistani AH1Z) the 2nd one seems to be PS, considering Pak Heli's color scheme isn't the one shown.

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## Tipu7

Sunny4pak said:


> Sir Sorry to say, but the above pic is from US (though Pakistani AH1Z) the 2nd one seems to be PS, considering Pak Heli's color scheme isn't the one shown.


Both pics are real and both pics are from United States.

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## Ali_Baba

This story makes no sense. Why would the USA agree to not overcharging these very expensively via a C17 or something, rather than allow via IL-78?

I call false news..


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## StormBreaker

Sunny4pak said:


> Z10ME will be considered only in case of T129, deal failure.
> 
> 
> Yes, that is the reason I am hopeful for the release of engines for t129. but in case US delivers all AH1Z then I think PA should wait and see for ATAK II with Local Engine from 2025 onward.
> 
> 
> I made a video on this topic earlier and did mention that AH1Z would be in Pakistan, furthermore are you referring to Military Budget?


Yes


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## Readerdefence

Hi well someone with more resources to capture Arizona boneyard can confirm 1 less or 2 less
Or none less 
Let’s see if someone can post recent images of the boneyard 
Thank you


----------



## ali_raza

IAU said:


> no bhai kesi ke pass hi abhi tak confirmation nahi hai bus sub rumors hain abhi tak


lo ji confirm ha
my guarantee



Ali_Baba said:


> This story makes no sense. Why would the USA agree to not overcharging these very expensively via a C17 or something, rather than allow via IL-78?
> 
> I call false news..


they r themselves stuck in difficult situations 
they need us like never before


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## Yasser76

IL-76 almost to small internal cabin to fit a AH-1Z. PAF have no experiance of transporting helicopters in IL-76 for ferry flights. US would of done this via C-17, but of course clueless fanboys want attention on the forum......


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## Rocky rock

You got to be kidding. PAF already recieved Mi-17s on il-78 Aircraft. it can easily carry AH-1z.


Yasser76 said:


> IL-76 almost to small internal cabin to fit a AH-1Z. PAF have no experiance of transporting helicopters in IL-76 for ferry flights. US would of done this via C-17, but of course clueless fanboys want attention on the forum......

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## Rocky rock

Rocky rock said:


> You got to be kidding. PAF already recieved Mi-17s on il-78 Aircraft. it can easily carry AH-1z.


mi-17 offloading.

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## Yasser76

Rocky rock said:


> mi-17 offloading.
> View attachment 641645



PAF have done this many tines, not with AH-1Z and halfway across the world. These choppers (if ever delivered) will be via C-17

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## Flight of falcon

Yasser76 said:


> PAF have done this many tines, not with AH-1Z and halfway across the world. These choppers (if ever delivered) will be via C-17





No they don’t have to be . What are you even talking about . They fit into C130 / C5 galaxy and even in some civilian freighters ....

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## Yasser76

Flight of falcon said:


> No they don’t have to be . What are you even talking about . They fit into C130 / C5 galaxy and even in some civilian freighters ....



PAF had never transported this chopper before, its big, bulky and I can assure you if delivered will be delovered by USAF C-17s that transport them every single day....


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## Lord Of Gondor

Yasser76 said:


> PAF had never transported this chopper before, its big, bulky and I can assure you if delivered will be delovered by USAF C-17s that transport them every single day....


Doubtful they will use military freighters, IAF got the Guardians on private cargo planes:







Rocky rock said:


> mi-17 offloading.
> View attachment 641645


That looks like an An-124 Ruslan as well

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## Ultima Thule

ali_raza said:


> lo ji confirm ha
> my guarantee


Kon se guarantee, sub log so i source aur pics mang rahe hain bhai



Yasser76 said:


> PAF have done this many tines, not with AH-1Z and halfway across the world. These choppers (if ever delivered) will be via C-17


Mi 17 is a big heli as compare to AH-1Z, so it is possible that AH-1Z transported in PAF's IL-78 and as for loading in USA there were US personals on Baltimore for loading and IL-78 loading and unloading system is not new for them


----------



## Muhammad Omar

fatman17 said:


> Link doesn't work


Sir Just search World defence on Facebook

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## Ultima Thule

Yasser76 said:


> IL-76 almost to small internal cabin to fit a AH-1Z. PAF have no experiance of transporting helicopters in IL-76 for ferry flights. US would of done this via C-17, but of course clueless fanboys want attention on the forum......


Mi 17 is a big heli as compare to AH-1Z, so it is possible that AH-1Z transported in PAF's IL-78 and as for loading in USA there were US personals on Baltimore for loading and IL-78 loading and unloading system is not new for them


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## Safriz

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Doubtful they will use military freighters, IAF got the Guardians on private cargo planes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That looks like an An-124 Ruslan as well


These helicopters can be shipped in crates, unassembled.
Or with tail section removed.
Even a c-130 can carry

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## kursed

Yasser76 said:


> PAF had never transported this chopper before, its big, bulky and I can assure you if delivered will be delovered by USAF C-17s that transport them every single day....


PAA isn’t even trained on the type yet. No PAA pilots went to US to train and get certified on the type. It hasn’t arrived in Pakistan. We are posting 2 year old patch pics and 2 year old platform pics to suggest it’s in Pakistan now. It doesn’t make any sense.

This is like Block 52 landing in Pakistan, without PAF pilots converting to it.

The fact that no pics are released and that no official announcement took place points to the same, that no delivery has taken place. These are major system buys between US and Pak, not an underhand deal that can be kept secret and only released via defense forums.

In Pak, US embassy posts pics of Cobras that Pakistan bought off Jordan. They posted pics of handing over Block 52 to PAF. But are quiet now. I mean, c’mon. 

These deals aren’t kept quiet, at delivery stage.

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## Yasser76

kursed said:


> PAA isn’t even trained on the type yet. No PAA pilots went to US to train and get certified on the type. It hasn’t arrived in Pakistan. We are posting 2 year old patch pics and 2 year old platform pics to suggest it’s in Pakistan now. It doesn’t make any sense.
> 
> This is like Block 52 landing in Pakistan, without PAF pilots converting to it.
> 
> The fact that no pics are released and that no official announcement took place points to the same, that no delivery has taken place. These are major system buys between US and Pak, not an underhand deal that can be kept secret and only released via defense forums.
> 
> In Pak, US embassy posts pics of Cobras that Pakistan bought off Jordan. They posted pics of handing over Block 52 to PAF. But are quiet now. I mean, c’mon.
> 
> These deals aren’t kept quiet, at delivery stage.



No, if these choppers were being released it would be MASSIVE news.

1) Means US have agreed to subsidise them via CSF or Pak found funding
2) Would mean a massive policy change by Trump (and well know he does not keep his mouth shut)
3) Indians would be crying (and if we know on an open forum you can be sure they do)

So you are wrong, these choppers are not coming to Pakistan, you and other posters have a vested interest in post random BS as you believe it gives you some fake aura of insider knowledge or access to sensitive information, something of a disease amongst the more ill educated people of Pakistan. Just like that uncle we all have that boasts about his senior political connections at family weddings but somehow is still stuck running a spare parts shop in Lahore......

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## Ultima Thule

Yasser76 said:


> No, if these choppers were being released it would be MASSIVE news.
> 
> 1) Means US have agreed to subsidise them via CSF or Pak found funding
> 2) Would mean a massive policy change by Trump (and well know he does not keep his mouth shut)
> 3) Indians would be crying (and if we know on an open forum you can be sure they do)
> 
> So you are wrong, these choppers are not coming to Pakistan, you and other posters have a vested interest in post random BS as you believe it gives you some fake aura of insider knowledge or access to sensitive information, something of a disease amongst the more ill educated people of Pakistan. Just like that uncle we all have that boasts about his senior political connections at family weddings but somehow is still stuck running a spare parts shop in Lahore......


But this new or would i say rumor comes from professional in Pakistani military (either retired or on duty) which might have some INSIDE information


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## Yasser76

IAU said:


> But this new or would i say rumor comes from professional in Pakistani military (either retired or on duty) which might have some INSIDE information



You simply cannot prove or verify that. That is a simple fact.


----------



## SQ8

Even Russia - with its looser weapons controls and generally stronger defense ties with India, made full disclosure on the 4 Mi-35s but somehow the AH-1Zs we ordered from a country with extremely strict arms controls for Pakistan(even if its a cooling column for a radar) and couldn’t pay for and still have no clear funding sources for are being loaded on Il-78s and brought back to Pakistan as we speak without any clear notification. Additionally,none of the extremely keen observers at AMARC have seen movement or commented on anything.

Best clandestine operation ever - but lets trust folks who do have 65% -75% accuracy in predicting stuff because frankly.. we can all hope for better things for our country.

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## Ultima Thule

Yasser76 said:


> You simply cannot prove or verify that. That is a simple fact.


yes you're right but remember dude Rumors comes first than confirmation/pics/detail, so lets wait and see

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> No, if these choppers were being released it would be MASSIVE news.
> 
> 1) Means US have agreed to subsidise them via CSF or Pak found funding
> 2) Would mean a massive policy change by Trump (and well know he does not keep his mouth shut)
> 3) Indians would be crying (and if we know on an open forum you can be sure they do)
> 
> So you are wrong, these choppers are not coming to Pakistan, you and other posters have a vested interest in post random BS as you believe it gives you some fake aura of insider knowledge or access to sensitive information, something of a disease amongst the more ill educated people of Pakistan. Just like that uncle we all have that boasts about his senior political connections at family weddings but somehow is still stuck running a spare parts shop in Lahore......


bro I think @kursed is actually on the same page as you

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## kursed

Yasser76 said:


> No, if these choppers were being released it would be MASSIVE news.
> 
> 1) Means US have agreed to subsidise them via CSF or Pak found funding
> 2) Would mean a massive policy change by Trump (and well know he does not keep his mouth shut)
> 3) Indians would be crying (and if we know on an open forum you can be sure they do)
> 
> So you are wrong, these choppers are not coming to Pakistan, you and other posters have a vested interest in post random BS as you believe it gives you some fake aura of insider knowledge or access to sensitive information, something of a disease amongst the more ill educated people of Pakistan. Just like that uncle we all have that boasts about his senior political connections at family weddings but somehow is still stuck running a spare parts shop in Lahore......


That's what I meant, Sir. I was agreeing with you. I have tried corroborating the news and there's nothing that came in. We may get them at some point in time, but they are not here yet and when they do arrive, it'd be announced officially.

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## khanasifm

So what’s the bottom line fake news ??


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## fatman17

Antonov 124 is used


Rocky rock said:


> You got to be kidding. PAF already recieved Mi-17s on il-78 Aircraft. it can easily carry AH-1z.

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## fatman17

Yes, very much until proved otherwise


khanasifm said:


> So what’s the bottom line fake news ??


----------



## Rocky rock

fatman17 said:


> Antonov 124 is used


What about this?

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## Imran Khan

Rocky rock said:


> What about this?
> View attachment 641803
> View attachment 641804
> View attachment 641805


mi-17 is scrap sir just look at it they are not delivering usable chopper like this .


----------



## khanasifm

Imran Khan said:


> mi-17 is scrap sir just look at it they are not delivering usable chopper like this .


During this transportation parts are removed in this case the radar weather radar cone removed as well as radar

Il-78 can transport that’s not the issues Fake news is but on Social media it’s common everyone is jumping to quote fake news


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## Rocky rock

My point here is the Cargo Compartment of il-76/78 can easily carry Ah-1z viper if it can carry all these model's. it has L+W+H =20.0X3.41X3.46m3


Imran Khan said:


> mi-17 is scrap sir just look at it they are not delivering usable chopper like this .

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## Imran Khan

khanasifm said:


> During this transportation parts are removed in this case the radar weather radar cone removed as well as radar
> 
> Il-78 can transport that’s not the issues Fake news is but on Social media it’s common everyone is jumping to quote fake news


thats why is said sir we will not believe untill we see them here 

about this mi-17 image here is the background story of this image 
https://www.aircargonews.net/region/africa/acs-helps-helicopters-fly-in-for-a-refit/


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## Rocky rock

Agree! there's no validity to these rumours.


khanasifm said:


> During this transportation parts are removed in this case the radar weather radar cone removed as well as radar
> 
> Il-78 can transport that’s not the issues Fake news is but on Social media it’s common everyone is jumping to quote fake news


----------



## Imran Khan

Rocky rock said:


> My point here is the Cargo Compartment of il-76/78 can easily carry Ah-1z viper if it can carry all these model's. it has L+W+H =20.0X3.41X3.46m3


yes i think so sir its a big cargo plane and zulu is not that big chopper . its should be fit in .

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## Mumm-Ra

Is @Blacklight Khafee in disguise.
Mind phuking blown

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## Yasser76

kursed said:


> That's what I meant, Sir. I was agreeing with you. I have tried corroborating the news and there's nothing that came in. We may get them at some point in time, but they are not here yet and when they do arrive, it'd be announced officially.



Understood


----------



## aziqbal

Brings up another question

if Zulu is coming means T-129 is coming

if US clears us for a chopper then why would they not clear us for a engine ?

the perfect combination low level attack Zulu with T-129 top cover


----------



## Shabi1

aziqbal said:


> Brings up another question
> 
> if Zulu is coming means T-129 is coming
> 
> if US clears us for a chopper then why would they not clear us for a engine ?
> 
> the perfect combination low level attack Zulu with T-129 top cover


T-129 engines are a victim to US-Turkish politics problem. Not restricted because of Pakistan.

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## Sunny4pak

AH1Z Reported Deliveries & Turkish S400 Phase II Deal?

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## fatman17

Final Word: AH1Z are NOT being delivered any time soon. this has been some fan boys midnight dream! please don't waste any more bandwidth



Muhammad Omar said:


> Sir Just search World defence on Facebook
> View attachment 641668



fake news.

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## TsAr

Muhammad Omar said:


> Someone just send me a link on my page on Facebook that AH1z landed in Pakistan on 13 June. Then I went to this page and asked in C130J about how much these guys are reliable?? There's a world defense forum as well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2671503406472841


so did you get the answer?



Ali_Baba said:


> This story makes no sense. Why would the USA agree to not overcharging these very expensively via a C17 or something, rather than allow via IL-78?
> 
> I call false news..


Bhai kehna kia chatay ho...



fatman17 said:


> Final Word: AH1Z are NOT being delivered any time soon. this has been some fan boys midnight dream! please don't waste any more bandwidth
> 
> 
> 
> fake news.


is this you analysis or did you look around and confirmed from your sources?



aziqbal said:


> Brings up another question
> 
> if Zulu is coming means T-129 is coming
> 
> if US clears us for a chopper then why would they not clear us for a engine ?
> 
> the perfect combination low level attack Zulu with T-129 top cover


Zulu and T-129 are not connected at all.....USA not releasing engines for T-129 has more to do with the deteriorating relations between Turkey and USA. Remember they have also not delivered F35 to Turkey...

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## Incog_nito

As PA is buying 15 AH-Z Vipers will PA also going to place an order of some 30 Bell UH-1Y Venom as AH-1Z and Bell UH-1Y Venom works together in deploying troops in the war zone?



Rocky rock said:


> What about this?
> View attachment 641803
> View attachment 641804
> View attachment 641805



Is PA still open to acquiring used upgraded Mi-17s & PUMA from other countries?



Sunny4pak said:


> AH1Z Reported Deliveries & Turkish S400 Phase II Deal?



I have heard that Turkey has partnered with Russia over R&D of S-500 and other systems?


----------



## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Final Word: AH1Z are NOT being delivered any time soon. this has been some fan boys midnight dream! please don't waste any more bandwidth
> 
> 
> 
> fake news.


Sir they have arrived and second batch will arrive within a week

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## fatman17

Seeing is believing. Till then not true. Thanks for your comments.


Zarvan said:


> Sir they have arrived and second batch will arrive within a week


----------



## Cookie Monster

Yasser76 said:


> IL-76 almost to small internal cabin to fit a AH-1Z. PAF have no experiance of transporting helicopters in IL-76 for ferry flights. US would of done this via C-17, but of course clueless fanboys want attention on the forum......





Yasser76 said:


> PAF have done this many tines, not with AH-1Z and halfway across the world. These choppers (if ever delivered) will be via C-17





Yasser76 said:


> PAF had never transported this chopper before, its big, bulky and I can assure you if delivered will be delovered by USAF C-17s that transport them every single day....


U have been posting about Zulus...that there's no proof...these are just rumors/speculation.
...then u go on to "assure ppl" that US would use C17 to deliver Zulus(if that ever happens)...which is also speculation.


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## Mig hunter

Cfm no zulus arriving.. It's Just a rumours
First hand news

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Seeing is believing. Till then not true. Thanks for your comments.


Yes seeing is believing but also in case of MI 35 it was a month after their arrival than pictures appeared



Mig hunter said:


> Cfm no zulus arriving.. It's Just a rumours
> First hand news


What if they have ???


----------



## Sunny4pak

Incog_nito said:


> As PA is buying 15 AH-Z Vipers will PA also going to place an order of some 30 Bell UH-1Y Venom as AH-1Z and Bell UH-1Y Venom works together in deploying troops in the war zone?
> 
> 
> 
> Is PA still open to acquiring used upgraded Mi-17s & PUMA from other countries?
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard that Turkey has partnered with Russia over R&D of S-500 and other systems?



*Initially, it was said (i.e. S-500) however a news outlet recently quoted Turkish Defence Sectrteriate saying possible joint production of S400 (as part of S400 Phase II Deal)

As far as PA Future acquisition (UH1Y etc.) I don't think so that PA needed and have the resources, AH1Z if delivered, would be Pakistan's last big-ticket purchase (though through FMF) with regard to Heli's.*


----------



## Yasser76

Sunny4pak said:


> *Initially, it was said (i.e. S-500) however a news outlet recently quoted Turkish Defence Sectrteriate saying possible joint production of S400 (as part of S400 Phase II Deal)
> 
> As far as PA Future acquisition (UH1Y etc.) I don't think so that PA needed and have the resources, AH1Z if delivered, would be Pakistan's last big-ticket purchase (though through FMF) with regard to Heli's.*



Bell 412 is basically the same helicopter as UH-1Y, PA already has this in service

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## Waterboy

Boeing C-17 Globemaster III of the USAF (03-3124) was seen at the Islamabad airport. I wonder what goodies it brought?


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Muhammad Omar

Waterboy said:


> Boeing C-17 Globemaster III of the USAF (03-3124) was seen at the Islamabad airport. I wonder what goodies it brought?
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


Interesting


----------



## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Yes seeing is believing but also in case of MI 35 it was a month after their arrival than pictures appeared
> 
> 
> What if they have ???



thats true. so lets wait.lol



Waterboy said:


> Boeing C-17 Globemaster III of the USAF (03-3124) was seen at the Islamabad airport. I wonder what goodies it brought?
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram



taking embassy staff home due to covid.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Gulfstream-G450/2731

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> thats true. so lets wait.lol
> 
> 
> 
> taking embassy staff home due to covid.


US is COVID free???

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## fatman17

No but they were evacuated


mingle said:


> US is COVID free???

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## Falcon26

Zarvan said:


> Yes seeing is believing but also in case of MI 35 it was a month after their arrival than pictures appeared
> 
> 
> What if they have ???



The US is not Russia.


----------



## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Gulfstream-G-IV(SP)/2749

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## python-000

Salam bro, dose someone tell the status of Z-10ME or are we getting them from China for urgent basess because T-129 are not coming in a very soon...

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Army Aviation Schweizer 300C flying in formation.

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## Blacklight

python-000 said:


> Salam bro, dose someone tell the status of Z-10ME or are we getting them from China for urgent basess because T-129 are not coming in a very soon...
> View attachment 643485


*Unconfirmed, Maybe, Could be, Would be,* *Possibly*, Batch 1 within the next two months.

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## Flight of falcon

Bossman said:


> You have no idea, just BS!




Do you have any idea yourself? Then don’t tell people they BS.

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## FuturePAF

python-000 said:


> Salam bro, dose someone tell the status of Z-10ME or are we getting them from China for urgent basess because T-129 are not coming in a very soon...
> View attachment 643485


The Turks got a 1 year extension to get a working engine. The PA tested the T-129 and the Z-10 and found the Z-10 lacking and chose the T-129 instead. If the T-129 gets delayed too much longer then that, the PA will probably go for 12-15 Z-10, IMHO, to fill in the need to replace the old Ah-1.

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## python-000

My Bro, I know that both China & Turkey are our brother Countries But in this current situation do we have much time for that & what ever Turkey heartfully do for deliver T-129 to Pakistan but can't do that But China can do that...

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## Blacklight

FuturePAF said:


> The Turks got a 1 year extension to get a working engine. The PA tested the T-129 and the Z-10 and found the Z-10 lacking and chose the T-129 instead. If the T-129 gets delayed too much longer then that, the PA will probably go for 12-15 Z-10, IMHO, to fill in the need to replace the old Ah-1.


PAA hasnt closed the books on the T-129 or the Z-10ME

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## FuturePAF

Blacklight said:


> PAA hasnt closed the books on the T-129 or the Z-10ME



I understand. It’s a work in progress. If the T-129 is ready by next year with the new engine then the PA would go for the T-129, otherwise the Z-10. At best the PA will get 12-15 AH-1Z and still has a further 25-30 helicopters needed to replace the Ah-1 is current operations. If AH-1Z don’t come then it’s more T-129 or Z-10.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Best thing would be to be able to make heavy ATAK in Pakistan to take on AH64


FuturePAF said:


> I understand. It’s a work in progress. If the T-129 is ready by next year with the new engine then the PA would go for the T-129, otherwise the Z-10. At best the PA will get 12-15 AH-1Z and still has a further 25-30 helicopters needed to replace the Ah-1 is current operations. If AH-1Z don’t come then it’s more T-129 or Z-10.

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## FuturePAF

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Best thing would be to be able to make heavy ATAK in Pakistan to take on AH64



But can we afford to wait until that is ready. Also, I agree we should go for the heavy ATAK 2 (10 ton) helicopter from Turkey, especially if it can reach 20-21,000 feet like the Apache.

Although it may come down to costs, and splitting the order between the T-129 with a Turkish engine and the ATAK 2 maybe the best way to go, as the T-129 meet all of the PA’s requirements and has a ceiling of 13,000 feet, which would make it feasible for all but the North. Perhaps starting with local production of the T-129 and then move on to local production of the ATAK 2 when it is ready

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

FuturePAF said:


> But can we afford to wait until that is ready. Also, I agree we should go for the heavy ATAK 2 (10 ton) helicopter from Turkey, especially if it can reach 20-21,000 feet like the Apache.
> 
> Although it may come down to costs, and splitting the order between the T-129 with a Turkish engine and the ATAK 2 maybe the best way to go, as the T-129 meet all of the PA’s requirements and has a ceiling of 13,000 feet, which would make it feasible for all but the North. Perhaps starting with local production of the T-129 and then move on to local production of the ATAK 2 when it is ready


There's no feasible way to manufacture a specialized helicopter on a turn-key basis.

We would need to join a consortium. The fact is: Turkey is the only one inviting us to this kind of partnership, everyone else just wants us to buy as-is without linkage to our industry. But I do think we could work something out with South Africa.

With this in mind, if we go for ATAK, ATAK-2, etc, we would basically manufacture a % of the helicopter and contribute to the total supply chain (both PAK and TSK orders). I do think we should wait for these programs to materialize. In the mean time, perhaps, we can lease the PLA's existing Z-10s?

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## -BAJWA-

FuturePAF said:


> I understand. It’s a work in progress. If the T-129 is ready by next year with the new engine then the PA would go for the T-129, otherwise the Z-10. At best the PA will get 12-15 AH-1Z and still has a further 25-30 helicopters needed to replace the Ah-1 is current operations. If AH-1Z don’t come then it’s more T-129 or Z-10.



AH-1Z are delivered to PA but it is not disclosed yet. They are currently in queta.

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## Imran Khan

-BAJWA- said:


> AH-1Z are delivered to PA but it is not disclosed yet. They are currently in queta.


weather is rainy please park them inside tonight

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## GriffinsRule

-BAJWA- said:


> AH-1Z are delivered to PA but it is not disclosed yet. They are currently in queta.


And why are Americans hiding the fact that they delivered these helicopters?


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## Pakistani Fighter

-BAJWA- said:


> AH-1Z are delivered to PA but it is not disclosed yet. They are currently in queta.


Gen Bajwa Is that you?

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## Ark_Angel

02 AH-1Z delivered on 17 June2020. Rest in coming and Hot.

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## Bratva

Ark_Angel said:


> 02 AH-1Z delivered on 17 June2020. Rest in coming and Hot.



Why the secrecy and PAA feeding disinformation to Alan warnes and he tweets then that no AH-1Z arrived in Pakistan. AH-1Z is no UFO that PA is trying to hide, no?


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## Ark_Angel

Ask Alan Warnes I can't speak for him. I am confirming after going through visuals of the newly arrived birds.

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## Blacklight

Ark_Angel said:


> 02 AH-1Z delivered on 17 June2020. Rest in coming and Hot.


Figure has crossed 04.

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## Imran Khan

Bratva said:


> Why the secrecy and PAA feeding disinformation to Alan warnes and he tweets then that no AH-1Z arrived in Pakistan. AH-1Z is no UFO that PA is trying to hide, no?


ohhh bhai jaan please dont be angry . nothing is happen just few days and this bubble will burst . all this started when il-78 was found in USA .



Blacklight said:


> Figure has crossed 04.


 ye to phir maujza ho gya

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> Figure has crossed 04.


Do they have MMW Radars?


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

You know what that is a spectacular out of the box solution. No one thought of on PDF. Someone should forward this to PAA command for consideration.

Perhaps some of our service members could us. Maybe??
@PanzerKiel et al.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> can lease the PLA's existing Z-10s?

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## Blacklight

Ahmet Pasha said:


> You know what that is a spectacular out of the box solution. No one thought of on PDF. Someone should forward this to PAA command for consideration.
> 
> Perhaps some of our service members could us. Maybe??
> @PanzerKiel et al.

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## Ahmet Pasha

India leases weapons from Russia.
FC Balochistan was leasing helos from US


Blacklight said:


>



Post visuals if you get clearance please.


Ark_Angel said:


> Ask Alan Warnes I can't speak for him. I am confirming after going through visuals of the newly arrived birds.

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## Salza

why such confidentiality if Zulus are in Pakistan now. I don't think anyone can stop deliveries now when 2/4 are already delivered. This waiting game is killing me :x

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## Blacklight

Ahmet Pasha said:


> India leases weapons from Russia.
> FC Balochistan was leasing helos from US
> 
> 
> Post visuals if you get clearance please.


Just wait a few months PA will surprise you.

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## Salza

Blacklight said:


> Just wait a few months



lol that's too much time. anyways hope for the best. 

we need quality helicopters after Apaches going to India. If not T-129, Z-10ME should make into PAA soon. Still better than nothing.

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## mingle

Blacklight said:


> Just wait a few months PA will surprise you.


Let's see who attack again on @Khafee instead accepting mistake still stoke theior little egos thanks @Tipu7

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## Ark_Angel

mingle said:


> View attachment 644128
> 
> Let's see who attack again on @Khafee instead accepting mistake still stoke theior little egos thanks @Tipu7


Please don’t talk about Khafee. The guys a total fake. The guy simply posts Langar Gup on his forum. And he can’t speak or hear anything against his masters in the Gulf as he knows he’s being watched. Rest in due course of time things will unravel for the world to see. Just wait. But time is something we are short on. At the back end Things are looking pretty dangerous on the Eastern front and definitely something big is cooking. Hope they aren’t as Stupid as they appear to be.

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## TheTallGuy

Ark_Angel said:


> Just wait. But time is something we are short on. At the back end Things are looking pretty dangerous on the Eastern front and definitely something big is cooking. Hope they aren’t as Stupid as they appear to be.



These are prophetic sentences...what i find listening here and there..they are sounding alarm as hostilities are imminent. how much time we have I would dare say a "fortnight" from today..

what do you say?

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## Gripen9

Ark_Angel said:


> Ask Alan Warnes I can't speak for him. I am confirming after going through *visuals of the newly arrived birds*.


Murshid hamein bhee deedar kara dein

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## Imran Khan

bro i dont know who is right or wrong but please dont forget to washing and cleaning AH1Z daily morning and evening . daily kapra maro subah sham larka taaaki pakar ker khara rahy jesy koi makhi bethy usko ura ker kapra maro

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## ali_raza

Ark_Angel said:


> Please don’t talk about Khafee. The guys a total fake. The guy simply posts Langar Gup on his forum. And he can’t speak or hear anything against his masters in the Gulf as he knows he’s being watched. Rest





Imran Khan said:


> bro i dont know who is right or wrong but please dont forget to washing and cleaning AH1Z daily morning and evening . daily kapra maro subah sham larka taaaki pakar ker khara rahy jesy koi makhi bethy usko ura ker kapra maro


ap bhool gye safe rakhne ha
kamra/mehran na karwa le koi lol

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## alikazmi007

Do we have verified news if our crew received training/qualification for these Zulus? Doesn't make sense to get the birds without proper training/knowledge transfer?


----------



## mingle

alikazmi007 said:


> Do we have verified news if our crew received training/qualification for these Zulus? Doesn't make sense to get the birds without proper training/knowledge transfer?


I believe yes crew trained at Georgia I remember and there are old patch I upload at forum last week.

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## TsAr

Ark_Angel said:


> Please don’t talk about Khafee. The guys a total fake. The guy simply posts Langar Gup on his forum. And he can’t speak or hear anything against his masters in the Gulf as he knows he’s being watched. Rest in due course of time things will unravel for the world to see. Just wait. But time is something we are short on. At the back end Things are looking pretty dangerous on the Eastern front and definitely something big is cooking. Hope they aren’t as Stupid as they appear to be.


Let's not forget that he was the first one to reveal the news of the zulu's

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## ali_raza

Ark_Angel said:


> Please don’t talk about Khafee. The guys a total fake. The guy simply posts Langar Gup on his forum. And he can’t speak or hear anything against his masters in the Gulf as he knows he’s being watched. Rest in due course of time things will unravel for the world to see. Just wait. But time is something we are short on. At the back end Things are looking pretty dangerous on the Eastern front and definitely something big is cooking. Hope they aren’t as Stupid as they appear to be.


but u r saying the same things means u too r fake?

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## Armchair

TheTallGuy said:


> These are prophetic sentences...what i find listening here and there..they are sounding alarm as hostilities are imminent. how much time we have I would dare say a "fortnight" from today..
> 
> what do you say?



I think the gap is 1 year - within this year either side has a chance to make changes. After one year with re-armament on both sides, a clash will be inconclusive. 

Pakistan is more vulnerable right now until the Chinese equipment arrive.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/MFI-17-Mushshak/2390

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Cessna-O-1E-Bird-Dog/2761

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Aérospatiale-SA-315B-Lama/2762

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## Incog_nito

I think PAA is going the right way to have all the tech from various parts of the world.

But I think they should increase the numbers of AH-1Z to 30 in the future.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

AH1Z is useless. America will only use it to arm twist us. Or keep it stored in AMARG until we fulfill a long list of demands. Better to sing on to heavy ATAK JV or start a new program with China or get some Russian heavyweight helicopter.

Any American big ticket item will only be a sword hanging on our heads.


Incog_nito said:


> I think PAA is going the right way to have all the tech from various parts of the world.
> 
> But I think they should increase the numbers of AH-1Z to 30 in the future.

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## nomi007

*Call of duty: Waziristan addition.



*

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## Ahmet Pasha

We should make a game based on our fight against terrorism. IMO our fight had more veracity than the fake excuse used by America to invade muslim countries.


nomi007 said:


> *Call of duty: Waziristan addition.
> View attachment 644697
> *


----------



## AMG_12

nomi007 said:


> *Call of duty: Waziristan addition.
> View attachment 644697
> *


AJK, not Waziristan

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## Readerdefence

Ahmet Pasha said:


> AH1Z is useless. America will only use it to arm twist us. Or keep it stored in AMARG until we fulfill a long list of demands. Better to sing on to heavy ATAK JV or start a new program with China or get some Russian heavyweight helicopter.
> 
> Any American big ticket item will only be a sword hanging on our heads.


Hi I hope the possibility is still there coz USA already sold AH64 to India I don’t know how many but once that order been completed and USA dried out them in terms of helicopters next move will be to phase out AH1Z for Pakistan in that way USA can sell something else to India 
I agreed with your thoughts about fulfilling other demands of USA ( those can be smooth transition from Afghanistan 
Thank you


----------



## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Aerospatiale-SA-330-Puma/119

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## Incog_nito

Ahmet Pasha said:


> AH1Z is useless. America will only use it to arm twist us. Or keep it stored in AMARG until we fulfill a long list of demands. Better to sing on to heavy ATAK JV or start a new program with China or get some Russian heavyweight helicopter.
> 
> Any American big ticket item will only be a sword hanging on our heads.



Absolutely right. But we need to keep some tech in our fleets from US and EU side as well - I mean in very little numbers.

For AH-1Z, I would say 20 is a good number and focus on JV with other countries.

Is PAA is looking to acquire used helicopters from other countries for spares and even to upgrade them and add them into the fleet?

Helicopters Like:
Mil Mi-17
Aérospatiale/IAR SA 330 Puma

As in coming decade or so Chinese and Turkish options will be available so these Helis can be a stop-gap for PAA.


----------



## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Gulfstream-G450/2786

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Bell-412EP/2797

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## python-000

Dose Pakistan have any other hope for Attack helicopter on urgent basess from any Countery...!!!


----------



## CT-9914 "Snoop"

How viable would it be to get a non-US company to supply the engines off the shelf as a stopgap measure until Turkey sorts out the problem on their end?


----------



## SD 10

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> How viable would it be to get a non-US company to supply the engines off the shelf as a stopgap measure until Turkey sorts out the problem on their end?


if i am not wrong, it would need retesting and the whole procedure of evaluation will have to be repeated?

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## araz

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> How viable would it be to get a non-US company to supply the engines off the shelf as a stopgap measure until Turkey sorts out the problem on their end?


It is a problem with export licence. Firstly it may not be possible to fit every engine onto one platform. Secondly the same restrictions could apply to other engines as well. Lastly any new engine would need testing which could set things back 2-3 yrs. Hopefully a Turkish engine will be online by then.
A

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Mil-Mi-171/2801

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Aerospatiale-AS-350B3-Ecureuil/2803

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Aerospatiale-AS-350B3-Ecureuil/2803


----------



## nomi007

something is cooking

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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 647861
> 
> something is cooking


What?


----------



## nomi007



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## Tipu7

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 647861
> 
> something is cooking


Old Pic, snapped in USA. 

And whatever was cooking before has been cooked and delivered. Only serving remains infront of open sources.

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> Old Pic, snapped in USA.
> 
> And whatever was cooking before has been cooked and delivered. Only serving remains infront of open sources.


Any new orders we should expect ? If PAA looking quick they can purchase used zulus from US??


----------



## Tipu7

mingle said:


> Any new orders we should expect ? If PAA looking quick they can purchase used zulus from US??


Currently I am not aware about it. Probably Pakistan will make decision once the one year time space granted to Turkey for sorting out T129 engine based problem will expire.

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> Currently I am not aware about it. Probably Pakistan will make decision once the one year time space granted to Turkey for sorting out T129 engine based problem will expire.


If US offered PAA should pick it up may ask them to get used one from marine corp since US is not involved in any visible conflict


----------



## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Cessna-208B-Grand-Caravan/2131

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## Ark_Angel

ali_raza said:


> but u r saying the same things means u too r fake?


He picked up the news from this forum no where else. Rest as far as his wish list of Khayali Palao Goes..You can have the luxury to go through about what he says because 90% of that is Total B.S. lanagar Gup and Khayali palao.

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## Ahmet Pasha

So AW139 won a csar contract with USAF??
I remember it was participating in a tender.


nomi007 said:


>


----------



## FLIR

Ahmet Pasha said:


> So AW139 won a csar contract with USAF??
> I remember it was participating in a tender.


yes, they will replace uh-1


----------



## Yasser76

Ahmet Pasha said:


> So AW139 won a csar contract with USAF??
> I remember it was participating in a tender.



Yup, using them to replace UH-1s as light transport and security for US Nuclear Missile bases. Same model as PAF

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## Gripen9

Ahmet Pasha said:


> So AW139 won a csar contract with USAF??
> I remember it was participating in a tender.


Not for CSAR. These are to replace USAF ICBM protection forces and to transport key personnel during a potential nuclear exchange. They will be replacing venerable UH-1 Hueys.
USAF CSAR platform is HH60.

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## Dazzler



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## Zarvan

Any one has any information on what is the status of 5 more which Pakistan ordered. I am talking about MI35


----------



## nomi007

Zarvan said:


> Any one has any information on what is the status of 5 more which Pakistan ordered. I am talking about MI35


2021

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## Rocky rock



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## Rocky rock

Puma

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## Rocky rock

Ring my Bell ring my Bell. [emoji12]

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## Metal 0-1

FuturePAF said:


> Pakistan Army Aviation in Force
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source:
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FWarplanePorn%252Fcomments%252Fg0mxga%252F



Don't tell anyone Who posted this on r/WarplanePorn


----------



## FuturePAF

Metal 0-1 said:


> Don't tell anyone Who posted this on r/WarplanePorn



Don’t worry I won’t (because I don’t know who did )

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## Metal 0-1

FuturePAF said:


> Don’t worry I won’t (because I don’t know who did )



If you did, may have to see in person in dark alley for friendly talk.

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## air marshal



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## ali_raza

Ark_Angel said:


> He picked up the news from this forum no where else. Rest as far as his wish list of Khayali Palao Goes..You can have the luxury to go through about what he says because 90% of that is Total B.S. lanagar Gup and Khayali palao.


so wht u suggest ?
j15 news is wrong too?
f16v wrong too?
eda?

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## Safriz

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281493932451520517

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## Pakistani Fighter

Ark_Angel said:


> At the back end Things are looking pretty dangerous on the Eastern front and definitely something big is cooking.


Everything is Ok


----------



## Zarvan

Ark_Angel said:


> Please don’t talk about Khafee. The guys a total fake. The guy simply posts Langar Gup on his forum. And he can’t speak or hear anything against his masters in the Gulf as he knows he’s being watched. Rest in due course of time things will unravel for the world to see. Just wait. But time is something we are short on. At the back end Things are looking pretty dangerous on the Eastern front and definitely something big is cooking. Hope they aren’t as Stupid as they appear to be.


I seriously doubt after China debacle they have gotten the message. They are totally in position to fight plus Corona has taken the turn for worse in India.


----------



## Viper27

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 649862
> 
> 
> 
> I seriously doubt after China debacle they have gotten the message. They are totally in position to fight plus Corona has taken the turn for worse in India.



This is an old picture.


----------



## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Mil-Mi-171/2377

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Bell-AH1F-Cobra/2822

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## kursed

So, any update on the hidden AH-1Zs?


----------



## StormBreaker

kursed said:


> So, any update on the hidden AH-1Zs?


Camera apke hath mein aur update hamare pas ? Aisa to nai hota bhai

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## python-000

Bro, what happen to the procurements of Attack helicopters & what is the status of acquiring new Attack helicopters for PAA & what happen to the T-129 & AH-1Z vipers or Z-10ME & Mi-35 or Mi-28N...


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Dazzler said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272048353233244160



This one-month-old fake news had been debunked already, no need to post it again.


----------



## Dazzler

DANGER-ZONE said:


> This one-month-old fake news had been debunked already, no need to post it again.



Zulus?

All 12 sit comfortably at AMARG.

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## kursed

No AH-1Z have been transferred to Pakistan. The entire news has been a hoax. PAA has not even trained for the bird. I'd tried to push this earlier... but ...


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Dazzler said:


> Removed.
> 
> All 12 sit comfortably at AMARG.
> 
> View attachment 650895



If you look closely, these are the twin blade main rotor AH-1W and not the AH-1Z.

AH-1Z blades are folded this way and one can clearly distinguish between both variants from top view.

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## Dazzler

DANGER-ZONE said:


> If you look closely, these are the twin blade main rotor AH-1W and not the AH-1Z.
> 
> AH-1Z blades are folded this way and one can clearly distinguish between both variants from top view.



It seems rotors are being removed. Check the one on the left. Also, they seem to be in olive green color.

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## Gripen9

Dazzler said:


> Removed.
> 
> All 12 sit comfortably at AMARG.
> 
> View attachment 650895


Can you share GPS coordinates?

This looks more like an apron on flight lines than AMARG. Usually airframes are stored in on packed dirt and not concrete flight lines. Last photo that was shared had the airframes covered in polyurethane film as they are done for long term storage. If these are the Zulus then they are being restored for airworthiness.

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## Dazzler

Gripen9 said:


> Can you share GPS coordinates?
> 
> This looks more like an apron on flight lines than AMARG. Usually airframes are stored in on packed dirt and not concrete flight lines. Last photo that was shared had the airframes covered in polyurethane film as they are done for long term storage. If these are the Zulus then they are being restored for airworthiness.



32°10'15.2"N 110°51'18.7"W


----------



## Gripen9

Dazzler said:


> 32°10'15.2"N 110°51'18.7"W


I don't see any helos like this on a concrete apron. I am using Google Earth. can you point me towards the quadrant of boneyard? top left? bottom right? All airframes are on packed earth. only a few helos and some F-16s in the center apron most probably being regenerated.
AMARG database does not even show any zulus checked in. It has 52 AH-1Ws.

http://www.amarcexperience.com/ui/i...ontent&view=article&id=100018&Itemid=231#2017

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## Aamir Hussain

Not there on the coord. you shared

And the helos in the pic are not olive green but Marine Grey

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## Tipu7

Dazzler said:


> Zulus?
> 
> All 12 sit comfortably at AMARG.
> 
> View attachment 650895


Bro they are AH1W of USMC which were moved to Boneyard two years ago.

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## Dazzler

Seems like ours are not coming..





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=194705841866114

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## Gripen9

Dazzler said:


> Zulus?
> 
> All 12 sit comfortably at AMARG.
> 
> View attachment 650895


OK found them. They are on center apron. You have the image upside down. These are USMC old AH-1W in USMC Grey. The shadow looks like the rotors are on the side.







Location at AMARG

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
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## capricorn5192

Dazzler said:


> Zulus?
> 
> All 12 sit comfortably at AMARG.
> 
> View attachment 650895


It think that there are two types of helicopters parked there one are 10 (6 are at top left and 4 are at top right) while 2 (which look different from remaining) are at bottom left.


----------



## Gripen9

capricorn5192 said:


> It think that there are two types of helicopters parked there one are 10 (6 are at top left and 4 are at top right) while 2 (which look different from remaining) are at bottom left.


His photo is upside down. Look at what I posted. All are AH-1Ws. With a few old F-18 airframes on the top

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## Tipu7

Gripen9 said:


> OK found them. They are on center apron. You have the image upside down. These are USMC old AH-1W in USMC Grey. The shadow looks like the rotors are on the side.
> View attachment 650899
> 
> 
> 
> Location at AMARG
> View attachment 650898


Same place.... EMPTY

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## capricorn5192

Gripen9 said:


> OK found them. They are on center apron. You have the image upside down. These are USMC old AH-1W in USMC Grey. The shadow looks like the rotors are on the side.
> View attachment 650899
> 
> 
> 
> Location at AMARG
> View attachment 650898


Thanks, i also checked it again in 3d and they look same


----------



## Tipu7

Dazzler said:


> Seems like ours are not coming..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=194705841866114


Why are you knowingly/unknowingly sharing the wrong proofs that 'AH1Z are not coming'. 
First you shared the Pic of AH1W of USMC and now you are sharing another one which is years old?

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## Dazzler

Tipu7 said:


> Why are you knowingly/unknowingly sharing the wrong proofs that 'AH1Z are not coming'.
> First you shared the Pic of AH1W of USMC and now you are sharing another one which is years old?



Then share your "authentic" ones instead.

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## Gripen9

Tipu7 said:


> Same place.... EMPTY
> View attachment 650901


I am using Google Earth. Maybe they have not updated their images.

Unless airframes are being regenerated or have just arrived for long term storage, they are usually not on concrete apron. They are flushed with storage fluid in hydraulics and then wrapped in polyurethane coating if deemed to be airworthy for future and then parked on packed dirt areas (apparently easy on the tires).

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## Tipu7

Dazzler said:


> Then share your "authentic" ones instead.


It's better to sit tight and watch the show instead of floating tailored 'proofs'. 


Gripen9 said:


> I am using Google Earth. Maybe they have not updated their images.
> 
> Unless airframes are being regenerated or have just arrived for long term storage, they are usually not on concrete apron. They are flushed with storage fluid in hydraulics and then wrapped in polyurethane coating if deemed to be airworthy for future and then parked on packed dirt areas (apparently easy on the tires).


Agree.

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## Shah_Deu

Tipu7 said:


> Same place.... EMPTY
> View attachment 650901


yeah these are latest pics, the center pavement is empty

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## Dazzler

Tipu7 said:


> It's better to sit tight and watch the show instead of floating tailored 'proofs'.
> 
> Agree.


Some proof. : ROFL:

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## Meliodas

Any news on PA updating its airlift capability in the north.

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## Reichmarshal

Dident u hear, they are putting up a chairlift.

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Schweizer-300C/861

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## ghazi52



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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Aerospatiale-AS-350B3-Ecureuil/2803

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## MIRauf

Reichmarshal said:


> Dident u hear, they are putting up a chairlift.



Someone did start a rumor on it awhile back on another forum, few actually fell for it ( they took the hook, sinker and bait. )


----------



## ghazi52



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## Yasser76

MIRauf said:


> Someone did start a rumor on it awhile back on another forum, few actually fell for it ( they took the hook, sinker and bait. )



Hook, line and sinker.

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## ghazi52



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## nomi007



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## Armchair

MIRauf said:


> Someone did start a rumor on it awhile back on another forum, few actually fell for it ( they took the hook, sinker and bait. )



Confirmed by well known insiders on this forum.


----------



## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Russian or Italian... whats your choice?

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## ZedZeeshan

ghazi52 said:


> Russian or Italian... whats your choice?


Are you referring towards women..??


----------



## Rafi

ZedZeeshan said:


> Are you referring towards women..??



Ukrainian the best.

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## nomi007

ghazi52 said:


> Russian or Italian... whats your choice?


Italian is better.

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## ghazi52



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## Stealth



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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Cessna-O-1E-Bird-Dog/2761

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## Gripen9

air marshal said:


> https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Cessna-O-1E-Bird-Dog/2761


L-19


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## nomi007

*Boys returning home *

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## ghazi52

*CESSNA L-19 / O1-E BIRD DOG AOP

*

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## ghazi52



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## Incog_nito

ghazi52 said:


>



Bell Hueys should be acquired in more numbers for Army and for Paramilitary forces. I think there are several ex-Hueys that can easily be bought and upgraded with kits from US / EU.


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## Incog_nito

Does Pak Army needs more Mi-17s ?


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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Aerospatiale-AS-350B3-Ecureuil/2803

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

*Cessna 208B Grand Caravan*

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## Gripen9

ghazi52 said:


>


This is PAF SAR bird.

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## ghazi52



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## fatman17

*KD-X*



*KD-X* is a new generation of MMW guided long-range fire-and-forget ATGM similar to American AGM-114L. It has a stretched body and a white MMW head seeker. The missile was first shown in a July 2020 video where it was launched from a Z-10A attack helicopter. The subsequent video showed that before the launch the targets were identified and locked by the mast mounted MMW radar on top of a Z-19 scout helicopter within the attacking formation. The target information was then transmitted to Z-10As via datalink. Z-10As were expected to disengage right after the launch since the missiles are fire-and-forget. Besides coordinating with Z-19, Z-10A was speculated to be able to fire *KD-X* directly using the MMW guidance pod located underneath the missile. *KD-X* is thought to have evolved from the earlier BA-21 MMW guided ATGM which was first unveiled at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow and had a range of 18km.
_- Last Updated 8/8/20
_

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## air marshal



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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Mil-Mi-17-1V-Hip/2945

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## Signalian

I think two interesting scenarios that PAA gunships could be facing in a conventional war in future are:
1. Air to air combat (with drones and other helicopters)
2. SEAD/DEAD Ops ( taking out mobile and fixed Air defence assets in armoured warfare in desert or otherwise assisting ground/airborne assault in plains and mountains or PAF Ops, considering that PAF doesn't operate gunships)

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## mingle

Signalian said:


> I think two interesting scenarios that PAA gunships could be facing in a conventional war in future are:
> 1. Air to air combat (with drones and other helicopters)
> 2. SEAD/DEAD Ops ( taking out mobile and fixed Air defence assets in armoured warfare in desert or otherwise assisting ground/airborne assault in plains and mountains or PAF Ops, considering that PAF doesn't operate gunships)


Heard Z10 ME back in Pak??


----------



## Signalian

mingle said:


> Heard Z10 ME back in Pak??


Im more interested how can Signals and Aviation join hands to bring EW capability with mobility in Pakistan Army 

As for your comment, there is a Corps Sized members force on PDF who are always ready to talk weapon acquisition ranging from Assault rifle to Aircraft carrier. You can fill 50 pages in 5 days through input of 20-30 members on Z-10 ME acquisition .

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## Incog_nito

air marshal said:


> https://falcons.pk/photo/Mil-Mi-17-1V-Hip/2945


Does PA needs more Mi-17s ?


----------



## AMG_12

Signalian said:


> Im more interested how can Signals and Aviation join hands to bring EW capability with mobility in Pakistan Army
> 
> As for your comment, there is a Corps Sized members force on PDF who are always ready to talk weapon acquisition ranging from Assault rifle to Aircraft carrier. You can fill 50 pages in 5 days through input of 20-30 members on Z-10 ME acquisition .


There was a locally modified MI-17 with some new EW gadgets. I wonder what's the current status of that project.

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## Vapour

Signalian said:


> I think two interesting scenarios that PAA gunships could be facing in a conventional war in future are:
> 1. Air to air combat (with drones and other helicopters)
> 2. SEAD/DEAD Ops ( taking out mobile and fixed Air defence assets in armoured warfare in desert or otherwise assisting ground/airborne assault in plains and mountains or PAF Ops, considering that PAF doesn't operate gunships)



Imagine in both scenarios, this would be one of the very earliest steps, or maybe even a preemptive measure as with IAF's numerical superiority currently, Pakistan's priority would be air defence right?


----------



## Signalian

Vapour said:


> Imagine in both scenarios, this would be one of the very earliest steps, or maybe even a preemptive measure as with IAF's numerical superiority currently, Pakistan's priority would be air defence right?


I dont expect PAF to show everywhere every time for PA, so its best if PAA has gunships with sufficient electronics and weapon capability to give cover to PA forces. AH-64 and MH-53 in the Gulf war were used to attack Iraqi radar sites. Its reported that Irani AH-1 and Iraqi Mi-35 had duels in 1980's. The Indian AH-64E are employed under IAF, so IAF can use them for different roles and they are capable of carrying air to air armament, while PAA doesnt have an AAM equipped gunship so far in service. Indian also has LCH and Rudra, dont know how effective will they be in combat. There will be usage of UAV and UCAV from both forces. The use of PAA gunships across the border in a conventional war with India is questionable since they will need air cover from PAF where as India has Integrated AD of all ranges and altitudes which will be multi layered to stop air intrusion from Pakistan. Even if PAF operates in Indian skies to give cover to PA forces advancing inside India, they will need to clear the Radar and SAM sites which may threaten them. Indian armored forces will themselves be protected by an umbrella of SAM systems so these will need to be taken out also before PAA Gunships start targeting Indian tanks and IFVs.

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> I dont expect PAF to show everywhere every time for PA, so its best if PAA has gunships with sufficient electronics and weapon capability to give cover to PA forces. AH-64 and MH-53 in the Gulf war were used to attack Iraqi radar sites. Its reported that Irani AH-1 and Iraqi Mi-35 had duels in 1980's. The Indian AH-64E are employed under IAF, so IAF can use them for different roles and they are capable of carrying air to air armament, while PAA doesnt have an AAM equipped gunship so far in service. Indian also has LCH and Rudra, dont know how effective will they be in combat. There will be usage of UAV and UCAV from both forces. The use of PAA gunships across the border in a conventional war with India is questionable since they will need air cover from PAF where as India has Integrated AD of all ranges and altitudes which will be multi layered to stop air intrusion from Pakistan. Even if PAF operates in Indian skies to give cover to PA forces advancing inside India, they will need to clear the Radar and SAM sites which may threaten them. Indian armored forces will themselves be protected by an umbrella of SAM systems so these will need to be taken out also before PAA Gunships start targeting Indian tanks and IFVs.



Your short summary should open many foolish eyes, which are daily dreaming penetrating India through underestimating the gigantic Indian Military machine. But if you find a hole between the Indian lines without bleeding out tell me!

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## Sunny4pak

*All About Pak Army Aviation Corps 2020*






Dedicated to Sir @fatman17 

@Zarvan @Rafi @StormBreaker @jupiter2007 @bhola record

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## Rafi

Sunny4pak said:


> *All About Pak Army Aviation Corps 2020*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dedicated to Sir @fatman17
> 
> @Zarvan @Rafi @StormBreaker @jupiter2007 @bhola record



Great.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> I think two interesting scenarios that PAA gunships could be facing in a conventional war in future are:
> 1. Air to air combat (with drones and other helicopters)
> 2. SEAD/DEAD Ops ( taking out mobile and fixed Air defence assets in armoured warfare in desert or otherwise assisting ground/airborne assault in plains and mountains or PAF Ops, considering that PAF doesn't operate gunships)


These scenarios may necessitate a heavyweight like the 10-ton ATAK-2 over the 5-6-ton Z-10ME/ATAK. Basically, you're using that extra power and room to house the added electronics and diversified munitions.

On the first count, the PAA did actually opt for an DRFM/ECM suite with the ATAK (we selected the T129B2, which was to come with the Aselsan HEWS). However, you can probably house more equipment in the ATAK-2, especially in terms of cooling, redundancy, etc.

On the second count, you're going to need to carry more than only ATGMs or 70 mm rockets. Basically, you'll need to carry AAMs, mmW AGMs, and ARM AGMs. You may even need to integrate a mmW radar.

I would love to see if we can pack all of this into the existing T129, but with Turkey's higher output TS1400 engines (instead of LHTEC). So, can we use the extra power to add more weight via electronics (esp. top-rotor mmW radar) and a slightly enhanced weapons payload (go from 8 ATGM to 12 ATGM). This could end up being a lower cost and nearer-term option, one that we can feasibly acquire in larger numbers.

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## Mamajama

Signalian said:


> 2. SEAD/DEAD Ops ( taking out mobile and fixed Air defence assets in armoured warfare in desert or otherwise assisting ground/airborne assault in plains and mountains or PAF Ops, considering that PAF doesn't operate gunships)


Get chinese or turks to make helicopter usable anti radiation missiles and SEAD will be much easier.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Korea recently , retired lot of Huey Helicopters , would be great pickup for Pakistan if we have a local repair center for HUEY helicopters

129 Units

With some proper repair/refurbishment would be a good option for transport needs
specially since we are always short on Choppers

Would be great boost for Anti Flood rescue efforts its a dependable platform

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## Yasser76

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Korea recently , retired lot of Huey Helicopters , would be great pickup for Pakistan if we have a local repair center for HUEY helicopters
> 
> 129 Units
> 
> With some proper repair/refurbishment would be a good option for transport needs
> specially since we are always short on Choppers
> 
> Would be great boost for Anti Flood rescue efforts its a dependable platform



Why would we want to overhaul, upgrade and maintain these museums when we have retired them ourselves just like we also did with Aloutte IIIs?????

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## Imran Khan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Korea recently , retired lot of Huey Helicopters , would be great pickup for Pakistan if we have a local repair center for HUEY helicopters
> 
> 129 Units
> 
> With some proper repair/refurbishment would be a good option for transport needs
> specially since we are always short on Choppers
> 
> Would be great boost for Anti Flood rescue efforts its a dependable platform


you guys want to collect all the scrap of earth 
here is airforce shopping

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## fatman17

Sunny4pak said:


> *All About Pak Army Aviation Corps 2020*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dedicated to Sir @fatman17
> 
> @Zarvan @Rafi @StormBreaker @jupiter2007 @bhola record


Thank you very much Sirjee

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## Sunny4pak

fatman17 said:


> Thank you very much Sirjee


My pleasure Sir,
Sir, have you watched? I hope you will like it.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Imran Khan said:


> you guys want to collect all the scrap of earth
> here is airforce shopping



Hmmmm, to collect helicopters crashed on the ground from other countries just for cheap or free, because of continuous transmission failure. I think some friends consider their soldiers' lives inferior compared to soldiers of other countries.


----------



## Shabi1

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Korea recently , retired lot of Huey Helicopters , would be great pickup for Pakistan if we have a local repair center for HUEY helicopters
> 
> 129 Units
> 
> With some proper repair/refurbishment would be a good option for transport needs
> specially since we are always short on Choppers
> 
> Would be great boost for Anti Flood rescue efforts its a dependable platform


Big NO!!! we chose not to buy Hueys from USA which were almost free and returned after lease expiry. Transport fleet has to be reliable with decent availability time, these would be down for maintenance alot.


----------



## SQ8

Sunny4pak said:


> My pleasure Sir,
> Sir, have you watched? I hope you will like it.


Take some pointers from @Trailer23 and improve the research and narrative to get it better than the rest of the pointless videos out there - you can run the script by folks here for assistance.. and then could be featured.

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## Sunny4pak

SQ8 said:


> Take some pointers from @Trailer23 and improve the research and narrative to get it better than the rest of the pointless videos out there - you can run the script by folks here for assistance.. and then could be featured.


Thanks and noted Sir.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Thank you very much Sirjee


He makes good and informative videos

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## mingle

Sunny4pak said:


> Thanks and noted Sir.


I follow you on YouTube great and informative video keep it up

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## ghazi52



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## mingle

SQ8 said:


> Take some pointers from @Trailer23 and improve the research and narrative to get it better than the rest of the pointless videos out there - you can run the script by folks here for assistance.. and then could be featured.


His videos are simple and well researched for layman point view if he goes too much technical I think he will loose his viewers and also make video boring

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## Sunny4pak

mingle said:


> I follow you on YouTube great and informative video keep it up


Thanks, Sir Je, Stay Blessed.

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## Incog_nito

ghazi52 said:


>



How many Pakistan Army has these? I guess they should maintain a good fleet of these for the transport of SSGs.

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## Incog_nito

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Korea recently , retired lot of Huey Helicopters , would be great pickup for Pakistan if we have a local repair center for HUEY helicopters
> 
> 129 Units
> 
> With some proper repair/refurbishment would be a good option for transport needs
> specially since we are always short on Choppers
> 
> Would be great boost for Anti Flood rescue efforts its a dependable platform



How many of them? Pakistan needs them.


----------



## Incog_nito

Sunny4pak said:


> *All About Pak Army Aviation Corps 2020*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dedicated to Sir @fatman17
> 
> @Zarvan @Rafi @StormBreaker @jupiter2007 @bhola record



Are we using our own ATGMs or Russian ones?


----------



## Sunny4pak

Incog_nito said:


> Are we using our own ATGMs or Russian ones?


Don't think so dear.

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## Sunny4pak

Incog_nito said:


> How many Pakistan Army has these? I guess they should maintain a good fleet of these for the transport of SSGs.


Pak has 4 of them and 5 more on order.

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## Tamiyah

Sunny4pak said:


> Pak has 4 of them and 5 more on order.


Any news about their delivery?


----------



## Sunny4pak

Tamiyah said:


> Any news about their delivery?


No concrete info available yet dear.


----------



## Tamiyah

Sunny4pak said:


> No concrete info available yet dear.


Is it confirmed that 5 were ordered?

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## ghazi52



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## nomi007

PAA missed the opportunity to get advanced helos from the USA during the Afghan war.

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## Sifar zero

You are the only non-political defence channel out there and well done.


Sunny4pak said:


> Thanks and noted Sir.

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## PanzerKiel

Incog_nito said:


> Are we using our own ATGMs or Russian ones?



Both.

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## PakFactor

PanzerKiel said:


> Both.



Capability wise which are better?


----------



## nomi007



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## Metal 0-1

Why the hell army don't use rear access door/ramp of Mi-17s which provide great mobility for troops.





Like this...
You can embark disembark easily because it gives you more space. You can easily load unload causality, ATVs etc.
You can fast rope...




















(Can't find better example)

Leave the door for Gunner/Crew Chief

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## Metal 0-1

Seems like they are not using its full potential.
As I said they can also be used to carry light vehicles..




\

In this way couple of Mi-17s can transport Special Forces team and Vehicles like Buggys/ATVs to drop them off in rugged terrain.

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## Metal 0-1

Similarly the should adopt western SOFs to embark/disembark on helicopters..
Since Pakistan use Bells so, sitting like this legs dangling out looks weird but it works. 
Helo can just do a touch and go to drop off soldiers. Soldiers are either strapped in or sling across the open door is used to protect them from falling off the chopper. Delta Force is famous for using the techniques while riding on MH-6 Little Birds.

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## air marshal



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## Signalian

Metal 0-1 said:


> Seems like they are not using its full potential.
> As I said they can also be used to carry light vehicles..
> View attachment 664207
> \
> 
> In this way couple of Mi-17s can transport Special Forces team and Vehicles like Buggys/ATVs to drop them off in rugged terrain.
> View attachment 664208


which light vehicle does PA operate that needs to be transported in mountains ?

I do wonder how did those field guns make it to mountains

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## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> which light vehicle does PA operate that needs to be transported in mountains ?
> 
> I do wonder how did those field guns make it to mountains


How about manufacturing Special Purpose ATV's, quad bikes and Bikes for patrolling purposes of SF...


----------



## Shabi1

ghazi52 said:


>



What happened to plan to buy more of these. Is PA not happy with their performance or not needed as air assault requirements gone down.


----------



## Signalian

Metal 0-1 said:


> How about manufacturing Special Purpose ATV's, quad bikes and Bikes for patrolling purposes of SF...


Discussed this idea once with @Inception-06 as a probable mobility solution in mountains.

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## Ghost 125

Signalian said:


> which light vehicle does PA operate that needs to be transported in mountains ?
> 
> I do wonder how did those field guns make it to mountains


guns are disassembled in parts and then transported by heli or vehicles, depending on availability of road/ track and its condition/ capacity.

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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> which light vehicle does PA operate that needs to be transported in mountains ?
> 
> I do wonder how did those field guns make it to mountains



We transported artillery guns via helicopters.... Both in disassembled form and slung beneath them..... during Kargil conflict into Indian territory.

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## Ghost 125

PanzerKiel said:


> We transported artillery guns via helicopters.... Both in disassembled form and slung beneath them..... during Kargil conflict into Indian territory.


medium guns were disassembled and carried by MI 17s to kargil front in trips in response to neelum valley interdiction and later again during Kargil conflict.... pack howitzers were slung beneath.

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## Signalian

PanzerKiel said:


> We transported artillery guns via helicopters.... Both in disassembled form and slung beneath them..... during Kargil conflict into Indian territory.





Ghost 125 said:


> medium guns were disassembled and carried by MI 17s to kargil front in trips in response to neelum valley interdiction and later again during Kargil conflict.... pack howitzers were slung beneath.



Yes, the 'smiley' was there for a purpose.

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## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> Discussed this idea once with @Inception-06 as a probable mobility solution in mountains.


Please share conclusion of that discussion..


----------



## ghazi52



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## Signalian

Metal 0-1 said:


> Please share conclusion of that discussion..


Rapid transport through helicopter is the feasible solution.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Shabi1 said:


> What happened to plan to buy more of these. Is PA not happy with their performance or not needed as air assault requirements gone down.



4 delivered 
5 on order


----------



## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> Rapid transport through helicopter is the feasible solution.


That's my point..


----------



## IHK_PK

Are we getting the Mi-35P the most advanced one?


Muhammad Omar said:


> 4 delivered
> 5 on order


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> Rapid transport through helicopter is the feasible solution.


Not sure if we're still able to buy from Russia (CAATSA et. al), but the H215m Super Puma could be a low-cost way to complement/expand that heavy-medium portion of our fleet.

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Army Aviation AS350B3 Ecureuil l

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## Signalian

Metal 0-1 said:


> That's my point..


Its already implemented, but it has a lot of limitations. Not just numbers, but terrain, enemy AD especially AAA as well the weather and night ops.

The major issue of ATV in the LOC area is the vegetation like trees which will kill its purpose of fast mobility. Barren mountains of the western front are good prospect for ATV.

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not sure if we're still able to buy from Russia (CAATSA et. al), but the H215m Super Puma could be a low-cost way to complement/expand that heavy-medium portion of our fleet.


Has Z-9 been tested at High altitude ? I haven't looked much into PLA helicopter fleet around Ladakh, but i think Mi-17 would be an obvious choice.

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## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> Its already implemented, but it has a lot of limitations. Not just numbers, but terrain, enemy AD especially AAA as well the weather and night ops.
> 
> The major issue of ATV in the LOC area is the vegetation like trees which will kill its purpose of fast mobility. Barren mountains of the western front are good prospect for ATV.


Not trolling but I don't see anything implemented, something manufactured or bought.

I didn't said LOC.

Vast rugged terrain of Balochistan and FATA.

Desert region od Sindh and Punjab these are the ideal places..


----------



## Signalian

Metal 0-1 said:


> Not trolling but I don't see anything implemented, something manufactured or bought.
> 
> I didn't said LOC.
> 
> Vast rugged terrain of Balochistan and FATA.
> 
> Desert region od Sindh and Punjab these are the ideal places..


Just like USA SF uses them ? deployed from helicopters ?


----------



## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> Just like USA SF uses them ? deployed from helicopters ?


Not everyday.. Not every condition requires.

Question is do our SOF community use ATV/ Quad Bikes? NO

Do the use these type insertion/extraction? NO


----------



## Signalian

Metal 0-1 said:


> Not everyday.. Not every condition requires.
> 
> Question is do our SOF community use ATV/ Quad Bikes? NO
> 
> Do the use these type insertion/extraction? NO


where do you put Mi-35 then ? since its in service already


----------



## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> where do you put Mi-35 then ? since its in service already


Just another bird which is laying around. Not being used as it was meant. 

But, if you say so,
In COIN insurgency the theater its role is to provide CAS. It can also carry SOF personnel, first it will soften up the targets drop off SF team by either landing or by means of fast roping. Ground team will work its way inside the compound while MI-35 will provide top cover or to eliminate any runner. It will keep an eye out for enemy reinforcements. Mi-35 will buy some time from ground team. After the kill/capture mission is complete. It will pick up ground team and go to home.

Example: Balochistan.......

Now, where are my ATVs?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> Has Z-9 been tested at High altitude ? I haven't looked much into PLA helicopter fleet around Ladakh, but i think Mi-17 would be an obvious choice.



We've been using the H125M at high-altitude (at least for SAR), and had tested the AW139 for those areas too.

The AW189K (the ITAR-free version of AW149 with Safran Aneto engines) may be an option too as it offers similar capabilities at high-alt, but more payload. Egypt is reportedly paying around $40 m per aircraft (plus spares and support), which isn't bad for a new 8-9-ton utility helicopter.









Two H125s help rescue climber in Pakistan


On 26 January 2018, five members of Pakistan’s Army Aviation HA Squadron received orders from Headquarters Force Command Northern Areas (FCNA) to evacuate climber Tomek Mackiewicz, who was trapped at an elevation of about 7,400 metres on Nanga Parbat, Pakistan (in the Himalayan mountain range)...




www.airbus.com













AW139 Hot and High Altitude Trials in Pakistan


An AW139 showed outstanding hot and high altitude performance and mission capabilities in Pakistan, reached on a ferry flight from Italy.




www.helis.com

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## air marshal



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## Signalian

Metal 0-1 said:


> Just another bird which is laying around. Not being used as it was meant.
> 
> But, if you say so,
> In COIN insurgency the theater its role is to provide CAS. It can also carry SOF personnel, first it will soften up the targets drop off SF team by either landing or by means of fast roping. Ground team will work its way inside the compound while MI-35 will provide top cover or to eliminate any runner. It will keep an eye out for enemy reinforcements. Mi-35 will buy some time from ground team. After the kill/capture mission is complete. It will pick up ground team and go to home.
> 
> Example: Balochistan.......
> 
> Now, where are my ATVs?


You have depicted a scenario thats often discussed on PDF w.r.t Mi-35.

Mi-35 carrying SSG/SOF is an educated guess by members on PDF or are there any pictures of Mi-35 exercising with SSG/SOF ?

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We've been using the H125M at high-altitude (at least for SAR), and had tested the AW139 for those areas too.
> 
> The AW189K (the ITAR-free version of AW149 with Safran Aneto engines) may be an option too as it offers similar capabilities at high-alt, but more payload. Egypt is reportedly paying around $40 m per aircraft (plus spares and support), which isn't bad for a new 8-9-ton utility helicopter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two H125s help rescue climber in Pakistan
> 
> 
> On 26 January 2018, five members of Pakistan’s Army Aviation HA Squadron received orders from Headquarters Force Command Northern Areas (FCNA) to evacuate climber Tomek Mackiewicz, who was trapped at an elevation of about 7,400 metres on Nanga Parbat, Pakistan (in the Himalayan mountain range)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.airbus.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AW139 Hot and High Altitude Trials in Pakistan
> 
> 
> An AW139 showed outstanding hot and high altitude performance and mission capabilities in Pakistan, reached on a ferry flight from Italy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.helis.com


This makes a good inclusion of helicopters in PAA which can operate at high altitudes. AW-139 has good seating capacity being tested with 8 troops. You mentioned super puma previously, Pakistan showed interest in a variant of Puma, Romanian probably.

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## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> You have depicted a scenario thats often discussed on PDF w.r.t Mi-35.
> 
> Mi-35 carrying SSG/SOF is an educated guess by members on PDF or are there any pictures of Mi-35 exercising with SSG/SOF ?


That's why I said in the start that it's just a bird, sitting around not being used as it was intended.


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## Signalian

Metal 0-1 said:


> That's why I said in the start that it's just a bird, sitting around not being used as it was intended.


Any example after 80's soviet occupation of Afghanistan of Mi-24/35 transporting SF and providing them cover?


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## SQ8

Signalian said:


> Any example after 80's soviet occupation of Afghanistan of Mi-24/35 transporting SF and providing them cover?


All I have heard is that it is pretty uncomfortable versus the hip.

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## PanzerKiel

Metal 0-1 said:


> Question is do our SOF community use ATV/ Quad Bikes? NO



They do in some specific sectors of our Eastern border.

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## PanzerKiel

Metal 0-1 said:


> In COIN insurgency the theater its role is to provide CAS. It can also carry SOF personnel, first it will soften up the targets drop off SF team by either landing or by means of fast roping. Ground team will work its way inside the compound while MI-35 will provide top cover or to eliminate any runner. It will keep an eye out for enemy reinforcements. Mi-35 will buy some time from ground team. After the kill/capture mission is complete. It will pick up ground team and go to home.
> 
> Example: Balochistan.......



Already being implemented.

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## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> Any example after 80's soviet occupation of Afghanistan of Mi-24/35 transporting SF and providing them cover?



During some covert operations...... Back in Nam


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## Metal 0-1

PanzerKiel said:


> They do in some specific sectors of our Eastern border.


Please share some information

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## Metal 0-1

PanzerKiel said:


> Already being implemented.


Got anything

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## PanzerKiel

Metal 0-1 said:


> Got anything


many of them... If that's what you are asking.

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## Metal 0-1

PanzerKiel said:


> many of them... If that's what you are asking.


I am just asking for a picture or two of Army/SF/FC using ATVs


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## AMG_12

Metal 0-1 said:


> I am just asking for a picture or two of Army/SF/FC using ATVs


I've posted a picture of ATVs in use with SSG in the SF thread. You may try digging it out by yourself. If I remember correctly, they're parked at Attock Garrison.

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## Metal 0-1

AMG_12 said:


> I've posted a picture of ATVs in use with SSG in the SF thread. You may try digging it out by yourself. If I remember correctly, they're parked at Attock Garrison.


Already dug whole thread..

Can you tell me the year and month?


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## AMG_12

Metal 0-1 said:


> Already dug whole thread..
> 
> Can you tell me the year and month?


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## Metal 0-1

AMG_12 said:


> View attachment 666522


Now you shared it.

I went through all your previous posts never found anything..

Please share some more if possible. You know, I am bit of skeptical...


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## sparten

The PAA has opver 200+ Super Mushaks, just what are they being used for?


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## Metal 0-1

sparten said:


> The PAA has opver 200+ Super Mushaks, just what are they being used for?


Training, recon...


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## PanzerKiel

Metal 0-1 said:


> Training, recon...


.... And liaison.
Moreover, acting. the AOP for directing artillery fire, and as a possible platform for Air Battle Captain in order to coordinate and direct firepower of rotary / fixed wing assets simultaneously.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Wouldn't it be cool if we could design something like this as a successor to the Mushak-series? Basically, we retain the side-by-side seating configuration -- maybe add a small 2-seat cabin -- but leverage a turboprop instead of the piston engine? Basically, something like the Grob G120p. Call it Mushak NG.















Grob G 120TP - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org

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## farooqbhai007

Yea


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Wouldn't it be cool if we could design something like this as a successor to the Mushak-series? Basically, we retain the side-by-side seating configuration -- maybe add a small 2-seat cabin -- but leverage a turboprop instead of the piston engine? Basically, something like the Grob G120p. Call it Mushak NG.
> 
> View attachment 666622
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grob G 120TP - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


Yea , and have it fitted with EO sensors / ground surveillance radars , nigeria for example has been using DA-42s extensively for surveillance

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## farooqbhai007

PanzerKiel said:


> .... And liaison.
> Moreover, acting. the AOP for directing artillery fire, and as a possible platform for Air Battle Captain in order to coordinate and direct firepower of rotary / fixed wing assets simultaneously.


By any chance would you have any pics of Mi-35s in action, would be nice to see those

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## PanzerKiel

farooqbhai007 said:


> By any chance would you have any pics of Mi-35s in action, would be nice to see those



Would love to, dear.... But the right time for sharing those pics is yet to come.

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## farooqbhai007

I see , Sharing this here , MFI-17 i made and the COIN variant , plus some of Utility vehicles used by PA including those new foton tunlands which are being used in non-camo/ Black & grey colour by PA ,

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## Imran Khan

farooqbhai007 said:


> Yea
> 
> Yea , and have it fitted with EO sensors / ground surveillance radars , nigeria for example has been using DA-42s extensively for surveillance


whatever it will be it should be designed in pakistan 100%


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## PanzerKiel

farooqbhai007 said:


> I see , Sharing this here , MFI-17 i made and the COIN variant , plus some of Utility vehicles used by PA including those new foton tunlands which are being used in non-camo/ Black & grey colour by PA ,



Fotons are being used in very specific areas, c for some very specific duties.

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## farooqbhai007

PanzerKiel said:


> Fotons are being used in very specific areas, c for some very specific duties.


yep - non-border areas , been seeing a few different variations, Escort , MP etc etc


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## sparten

PanzerKiel said:


> .... And liaison.
> Moreover, acting. the AOP for directing artillery fire, and as a possible platform for Air Battle Captain in order to coordinate and direct firepower of rotary / fixed wing assets simultaneously.


Weren't they used for route observation when convoys started getting hit in FATA?


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## Ghost 125

sparten said:


> Weren't they used for route observation when convoys started getting hit in FATA?


No,,, and convoys are still getting hit almost every other day.


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## Readerdefence

Ghost 125 said:


> No,,, and convoys are still getting hit almost every other day.


Hi so PA is not using any drones in the area or they are to costly to operate 
or due to some other reasons 
if possible to answer
thank you


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## GriffinsRule

PAA operates vanilla Mushshaks and never upgraded them to the Super Mushshak standard. Those are only in the PAF

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## Ghost 125

Readerdefence said:


> Hi so PA is not using any drones in the area or they are to costly to operate
> or due to some other reasons
> if possible to answer
> thank you


they are being used, but since we have limited resources we cant cover the move of every convoy or foot patrols.

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## Metal 0-1

farooqbhai007 said:


> I see , Sharing this here , MFI-17 i made and the COIN variant , plus some of Utility vehicles used by PA including those new foton tunlands which are being used in non-camo/ Black & grey colour by PA ,


Something out of 90s Nintendo video game.

P.S you forgot to add Land Rovers..


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## Vapour

Ghost 125 said:


> they are being used, but since we have limited resources we cant cover the move of every convoy or foot patrols.



Has the situation improved since cleansing ops have re-started, I.e., the concentration of the ambushes and BOP attacks being increasingly reduced to limited areas?


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## Ghost 125

Vapour said:


> Has the situation improved since cleansing ops have re-started, I.e., the concentration of the ambushes and BOP attacks being increasingly reduced to limited areas?


situation is definitely far far better thn 2013 (speaking of north waziristan ) when on stretch of road of just 20 to 30 kms, BD party would retrieve 20 to 30 IEDs and yet one odd would explode causing casualities to road opening parties almost every weak. at that time army was restricted to few brigade and batalion size camps in Mirali, Miransha, dattakhel etc. 
After Zarb e azb, Situation improved, the whole area till border ( dwatoi and wacha bibi recently) were cleared. posts established on all dominating heights. from 2014 to 2017 North waziristan was relatively calm..then the IDPs started returning and along came the cancer of PTM....the problems started again. now we see 1 or 2 IEDs/ ambushes every weak.

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## Shabi1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Wouldn't it be cool if we could design something like this as a successor to the Mushak-series? Basically, we retain the side-by-side seating configuration -- maybe add a small 2-seat cabin -- but leverage a turboprop instead of the piston engine? Basically, something like the Grob G120p. Call it Mushak NG.
> 
> View attachment 666622
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grob G 120TP - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


The reason why Mushak gets so many sales is it meets a low tech niche ignored by others. Might not be cutting edge but its pretty high on practicality.What you are requesting would mean something with the same performance of the TAI Hurkus. With the market saturated with similar type aircraft it would be a risky move by PAC Kamra as it would have stiff competition for sales.
We've heard PAC has plans for a transport aircraft. I would expect they will acquire license for a out of production platform by OEM for eg best case Saab 2000, but could be something smaller like Chengdu Y-12.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Hürkuş

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## Vapour

Ghost 125 said:


> situation is definitely far far better thn 2013 (speaking of north waziristan ) when on stretch of road of just 20 to 30 kms, BD party would retrieve 20 to 30 IEDs and yet one odd would explode causing casualities to road opening parties almost every weak. at that time army was restricted to few brigade and batalion size camps in Mirali, Miransha, dattakhel etc.
> After Zarb e azb, Situation improved, the whole area till border ( dwatoi and wacha bibi recently) were cleared. posts established on all dominating heights. from 2014 to 2017 North waziristan was relatively calm..then the IDPs started returning and along came the cancer of PTM....the problems started again. now we see 1 or 2 IEDs/ ambushes every weak.



Given that PA have done it once before with Zarb e Azab, they should be able to clear and effectively nullify any activity alongside the Afghan border neighbouring the Waziristan region. Guess the primary issue is Balochistan, because the sheer size of it imposes issues which are not readily solvable by PA.

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## Readerdefence

Ghost 125 said:


> they are being used, but since we have limited resources we cant cover the move of every convoy or foot patrols.


Hi thanks for your reply is it possible to use mine clearing tank or something related to it by the way what PA is using as a mine clearing 
thank you

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## PanzerKiel

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your reply is it possible to use mine clearing tank or something related to it by the way what PA is using as a mine clearing
> thank you



In normal routine, dismounted BD individuals protected by Infantry patrols.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Shabi1 said:


> The reason why Mushak gets so many sales is it meets a low tech niche ignored by others. Might not be cutting edge but its pretty high on practicality.What you are requesting would mean something with the same performance of the TAI Hurkus. With the market saturated with similar type aircraft it would be a risky move by PAC Kamra as it would have stiff competition for sales.
> We've heard PAC has plans for a transport aircraft. I would expect they will acquire license for a out of production platform by OEM for eg best case Saab 2000, but could be something smaller like Chengdu Y-12.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Hürkuş



He isn't talking about Hurkus per se. More about a Diamond like training aircraft. If Mushak sells doesn't mean you just sit there waiting for it to become obsolete.

Hurkus/Tucano/Pilatus PC-9 kinda merges basic trainer with some advanced manouvers, you could call it an intermediate trainer.

But @Bilal Khan (Quwa) is talking about a better basic trainer(which have progressed quite a lot in recent years). The positive could be that we could make it cheaper in Pakistan hence price could be a lot less.










Some more progressive basic trainer designs, sleeker, more modern, better performance parameters/handling. You can feel the difference when you step out of a mundane Cessna 152/172 and step into a Diamond for example.

But the counter argument could be why not just go for high performance, turbo prop intermediate design at that point then. Reducing the need for a lot of training on jets(you could practice some high speed manouvers on these. Allowing the jet trainer pilots to transition to front line aircraft faster.

Example: TuAF
Hurkus->Hurjet->F35/MMU

*God I cant spell manouvers

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## Ahmet Pasha

Shabi1 said:


> The reason why Mushak gets so many sales is it meets a low tech niche ignored by others. Might not be cutting edge but its pretty high on practicality.What you are requesting would mean something with the same performance of the TAI Hurkus. With the market saturated with similar type aircraft it would be a risky move by PAC Kamra as it would have stiff competition for sales.
> We've heard PAC has plans for a transport aircraft. I would expect they will acquire license for a out of production platform by OEM for eg best case Saab 2000, but could be something smaller like Chengdu Y-12.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Hürkuş



If PAC wants to be a player in turbo props at the bare minimum it will have to snap out of the "get it from China" mindset or going for some other long forgotten platform. 

Pakistani folk need to realise we have to invest Pakistani brain power if we want Pakistani glory.

Tell me who wants to buy civil version of Y12?
Even if Air Forces wanted to bu military Y12 wouldnt they have been queing in front of Harbin to get it?

Also I'm not sure if you are talking about a military transport/utility or civil regional airplane?

Cuz recently PAC seemed interested in the regional airliner market. Largely to replace PIA ATRs.
For that I think you should think along the lines of COMAC/Embraer E190/Airbus A200 series/Mitsubishi MRJ.

If you ask me a KC390 like design suites PAC best becasue it can replace or supplement C-130 fleet and also serve as a potential contender in civil regional market(very hard to break into already dominated by moguls of aviation i.e Boeing and Airbus). 

Boeing recently dropped Embraer acquisiton/merger so lets see who takes em up. Embraer going through a very rocky period. If Pakistan could spare a few billions it would make a very lucrative investment.

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## Ahmet Pasha

That was done with all TDPs evacuated all enemies clearly identified and terminated.
We have already taken hold of all strategic heights and positions.
Problem is we need to develop advanced cyber and electronic surveillance. Model our intelligence on Israel they have some very good lessons to offer in terms of electronic, cyber and humint in environments where they cannot distinguish between friend and foe.
Get more involved in Afghanistan strictly covertly/indirectly with minimal drone assistance.
If the Afghan peace deals is successful and doesn't fall through, then we can gradually assert more influence.
@Vapour

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## Shabi1

Ahmet Pasha said:


> If PAC wants to be a player in turbo props at the bare minimum it will have to snap out of the "get it from China" mindset or going for some other long forgotten platform.
> 
> Pakistani folk need to realise we have to invest Pakistani brain power if we want Pakistani glory.
> 
> Tell me who wants to buy civil version of Y12?
> Even if Air Forces wanted to bu military Y12 wouldnt they have been queing in front of Harbin to get it?
> 
> Also I'm not sure if you are talking about a military transport/utility or civil regional airplane?
> 
> Cuz recently PAC seemed interested in the regional airliner market. Largely to replace PIA ATRs.
> For that I think you should think along the lines of COMAC/Embraer E190/Airbus A200 series/Mitsubishi MRJ.
> 
> If you ask me a KC390 like design suites PAC best becasue it can replace or supplement C-130 fleet and also serve as a potential contender in civil regional market(very hard to break into already dominated by moguls of aviation i.e Boeing and Airbus).
> 
> Boeing recently dropped Embraer acquisiton/merger so lets see who takes em up. Embraer going through a very rocky period. If Pakistan could spare a few billions it would make a very lucrative investment.


I expect there could be a future more updated Mushak version eventually but not a new platform as Mushak is very practical for its role and there are reports of interest shown in a new LIFT. PAF doesnt have the luxury to pursue too many new projects as has too much on its plate right now.

Problem is PAC and other Pak military manufacturing institutions are not for profit or neither commercial entities. Primary goal is to maintain, customize or license produce for Pakistan's own needs, any outside sales are a bonus and entertained only when there is room in production capacity for a outside client. This approach is less risky and saves a lot of money for Pakistan but there is less innovation as the production is based off of someone else's R&D and a product that already exists.
You only need to build something yourself when what you need does not exist, not being sold to you or you can make it cheaper yourself. The current model works well for us since we have limited resources and off the shelf technologies are meeting our current needs. Added bonus for us is China also has to counter Indian platforms so their R&D on counter systems means their platforms can meet our needs with some minor customization. In the future PAF plans to change this and reduce reliance with its Azm aviation city initiative and more public/private partnerships. But for now this works for us.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Shabi1 said:


> I expect there could be a future more updated Mushak version eventually but not a new platform as Mushak is very practical for its role and there are reports of interest shown in a new LIFT. PAF doesnt have the luxury to pursue too many new projects as has too much on its plate right now.
> 
> Problem is PAC and other Pak military manufacturing institutions are not for profit or neither commercial entities. Primary goal is to maintain, customize or license produce for Pakistan's own needs, any outside sales are a bonus and entertained only when there is room in production capacity for a outside client. This approach is less risky and saves a lot of money for Pakistan but there is less innovation as the production is based off of someone else's R&D and a product that already exists.
> You only need to build something yourself when what you need does not exist, not being sold to you or you can make it cheaper yourself. The current model works well for us since we have limited resources and off the shelf technologies are meeting our current needs. Added bonus for us is China also has to counter Indian platforms so their R&D on counter systems means their platforms can meet our needs with some minor customization. In the future PAF plans to change this and reduce reliance with its Azm aviation city initiative and more public/private partnerships. But for now this works for us.



Mashak is very practical so you will make it a statue, hang a yellow flower necklace and worship it???
Bro we are talking airplane and defence industry development not a t shirt that Pakistani families use until it is turned into pocha/tapri even that is used until it rips to shreds.

Innovation is name of the game if you want to make money/earn FDI that Imran Khan and Pakistani public like to cry about so profoundly.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Shabi1 said:


> I expect there could be a future more updated Mushak version eventually but not a new platform as Mushak is very practical for its role and there are reports of interest shown in a new LIFT. PAF doesnt have the luxury to pursue too many new projects as has too much on its plate right now.
> 
> Problem is PAC and other Pak military manufacturing institutions are not for profit or neither commercial entities. Primary goal is to maintain, customize or license produce for Pakistan's own needs, any outside sales are a bonus and entertained only when there is room in production capacity for a outside client. This approach is less risky and saves a lot of money for Pakistan but there is less innovation as the production is based off of someone else's R&D and a product that already exists.
> You only need to build something yourself when what you need does not exist, not being sold to you or you can make it cheaper yourself. The current model works well for us since we have limited resources and off the shelf technologies are meeting our current needs. Added bonus for us is China also has to counter Indian platforms so their R&D on counter systems means their platforms can meet our needs with some minor customization. In the future PAF plans to change this and reduce reliance with its Azm aviation city initiative and more public/private partnerships. But for now this works for us.



Look at how much we have suffered because of sanctions because we wanted hassle free off the shelf. How we suffered paying Billions of dollars for equipment that may very well be overpriced compared to how we could have made it cheap at home albeit with some upfront r&d cost. 

For short term gain we are missing out on huge economic potential for not just making money from sales of the weapons and tech we would have made. But also the trickle down effect of technology and money flowing from PakMil to other industries and the economy in general.

Since PakMil does not prioritise buying local there is very little incentive for local companies to participate in the market. 

Look at Turkey how there revolution started with small sub systems. We are not even able to make small sub systems. 12.7 machine gun and Israeli corner shot copy display kar k Pakistani bare khush hote hain. Furthermore, Turkey started by making some very good JV choices which is yielding fruitful results today. We are not even making any efforts towards JVs.

Italians have a very small domestic helicopter requirement but they are supplying helicopters to the entire world. That is just one example.

Your last counter is probably gonna be paise nai hain. Jab billions gorey ko dene hotey tab bhi to yahi problem hoti hai k nai? 
Agar ache time pe investment ki hoti to Billion upon Billions gorey aur CHinese ko na dete. Instead we would have re-couped the investment and made a profit. Alas, we are stuck in psychological enslavement to the gora and now the new abba for Pakistanis is China.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Defence industry is big bucks. The big powers are not stupid. Turkey is smart to try to get in on the action.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Pakistanis need an injection of good ole Capitalism. 
But not too much, too much of it produces human decline and suffering.
Just the right amount.


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## Shabi1

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Look at how much we have suffered because of sanctions because we wanted hassle free off the shelf. How we suffered paying Billions of dollars for equipment that may very well be overpriced compared to how we could have made it cheap at home albeit with some upfront r&d cost.
> 
> For short term gain we are missing out on huge economic potential for not just making money from sales of the weapons and tech we would have made. But also the trickle down effect of technology and money flowing from PakMil to other industries and the economy in general.
> 
> Since PakMil does not prioritise buying local there is very little incentive for local companies to participate in the market.
> 
> Look at Turkey how there revolution started with small sub systems. We are not even able to make small sub systems. 12.7 machine gun and Israeli corner shot copy display kar k Pakistani bare khush hote hain. Furthermore, Turkey started by making some very good JV choices which is yielding fruitful results today. We are not even making any efforts towards JVs.
> 
> Italians have a very small domestic helicopter requirement but they are supplying helicopters to the entire world. That is just one example.
> 
> Your last counter is probably gonna be paise nai hain. Jab billions gorey ko dene hotey tab bhi to yahi problem hoti hai k nai?
> Agar ache time pe investment ki hoti to Billion upon Billions gorey aur CHinese ko na dete. Instead we would have re-couped the investment and made a profit. Alas, we are stuck in psychological enslavement to the gora and now the new abba for Pakistanis is China.


You are right and that is exactly whats being done now. first we were too dependent on US, then we became too dependent on China, now we are diversifying. However the initiatives have been taken and we are in the right direction, importing stuff but also engaging in JVs and eventual local capability.


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## python-000



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## farooqbhai007

python-000 said:


> View attachment 667272


Upgrade for existing Z-10s in PLAA service , including additional armor plating and new upward facing exhausts

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## fatman17

09 SEPTEMBER 2020

More details emerge on upgraded Z-10 helicopter variant

by Andreas Rupprecht

Chinese state-owned media have revealed more details about an upgraded variant of the Zhishengji-10 (Z-10) attack helicopter in service with the People’s Liberation Army Ground Force (PLAGF).

Weihutang, a programme on military affairs from state broadcaster China Central Television (CCTV), showed images on 7 September of an upgraded Z-10 operated by an aviation brigade of the 79th Group Army and fitted with new engine exhaust outlets pointing upwards – instead of the previous outward/sideways configuration – in an apparent effort to reduce the helicopter’s infrared signature as seen from the ground.

A screengrab from CCTV footage highlighting some of the latest improvements made to the PLA’s Z-10 attack helicopter. (Via cctv.com)

Moreover, the rotorcraft shown in the footage features extra armour panels that have been externally attached to the helicopter. The CCTV footage shows that the panels, which are presumably on both sides of the tandem-seat helicopter, are present in three areas. The first two panels can be seen just below both of the cockpit’s side windows, with the third panel located under the front cockpit window.

The third panel, which is the largest of the three, covers the lower middle section of the housing for the helicopter’s WZ9 turboshaft engine.

The programme quoted unnamed analysts as saying that the armour plates are likely to be made from a new type of composite material that is not only stronger but also much lighter than steel amour.

Weihutang said the upgraded version is also equipped with a new identification friend-or-foe (IFF) system and a new antenna for the BeiDou satellite navigation system to help “ensure its combat capability in a complex electromagnetic environment”.

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## GriffinsRule

Engine and it's exhaust config isn't new, not are the additional armor around the cockpit. The block on the engine I do t recall seeing before but I might have just missed it earlier. 

Question would be, adding additional armor, as in weight, would have an adverse affect on performance as well. Will all this additional weight nullify any gains from the uprated engine?

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## Talon

The awaited Heli has finally arrived

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## LKJ86

Hodor said:


> The awaited Heli has finally arrived
> 
> View attachment 668919


Z-10ME?

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## HRK

Hodor said:


> The awaited Heli has finally arrived
> 
> View attachment 668919


first batch ....???

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## Tamiyah

Hodor said:


> The awaited Heli has finally arrived
> 
> View attachment 668919


Sir please tell us more about it.

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## farooqbhai007

Yea looks like a Z-10 from the pic

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## Muhammad Omar

Hodor said:


> The awaited Heli has finally arrived
> 
> View attachment 668919


To join Pakistan Army Aviation ???


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## LKJ86

farooqbhai007 said:


> Yea looks like a Z-10 from the pic

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## Tipu7

Hodor said:


> The awaited Heli has finally arrived
> 
> View attachment 668919


I urge you to keep it on hold for a while. Yes the desire for news break is intense afterall we have waited a lot for the "awaited heli" , but still. Plz hold on a bit...

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## Tipu7

Muhammad Omar said:


> To join Pakistan Army Aviation ???


Obviously.

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## Talon

Tipu7 said:


> I urge you to keep it on hold for a while. Yes the desire for news break is intense afterall we have waited a lot for the "awaited heli" , but still. Plz hold on a bit...


Like always,I only posted the news after it emerged on social media

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## Muhammad Omar

Tipu7 said:


> Obviously.


How many Pakistan are inducting these?

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> Like always,I only posted the news after it emerged on social media


Looks like off the shelf purchase???


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## python-000



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## python-000



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## air marshal

*Cessna 208B Grand Caravan
*

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## nomi007

scrap mall


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## kursed

Hodor said:


> The awaited Heli has finally arrived
> 
> View attachment 668919


Trials*, I believe. Once again. There has not been a purchase decision made yet. But yes, the birds are here.

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## Sulman Badshah

Pakistan Embassy visited TAI facility

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## Zulfiqar

Sorry if it is a repost.

History of PA aviation 1947-2007




http://aviatorz.net/wp-content/uploads/PDFs/Army_Avn_History_Full.pdf


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## mingle

Sulman Badshah said:


> Pakistan Embassy visited TAI facility
> View attachment 672480


Just a courtesy visit??


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## Dazzler

Muhammad Omar said:


> How many Pakistan are inducting these?



Here for further testing.


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## air marshal



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## python-000




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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

*Harbin Y-12 Pakistan Army Aviation.*

The Harbin Y-12 is a high wing twin-engine turboprop utility aircraft built by Harbin Aircraft Industry Group (HAIG).

The Y-12 started as a development of the Harbin Y-11 airframe called Y-11T in 1980. The design featured numerous improvements including a redesigned wing with a new low drag section, a larger fuselage and bonded rather than riveted construction.

The first prototype, followed by about 30 production Y-12 (I) aircraft before a revised version was produced. This was designated the Y-12 (II), which featured more powerful engines and removal of leading edge slats, first flying on 16 August 1984 and receiving Chinese certification in December of the following year.

The power plants are two Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-27 turboprops with Hartzell propellers. The Y-12 has a maximum takeoff weight of 5,700 kg (12,600 lb) with seating for 17 passengers and two crew. The aircraft is operated as a light commuter and transport aircraft.

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## nomi007



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## Metal 0-1

AH-1F Airframe being transported with help of Mi-17..

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## Metal 0-1

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 677098


Will you please give us more insight?

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## MastanKhan

A very interesting videwo on the MI35-P


Who is this export customer---???

*Meet The Last Upgraded Mi-35P, Russia's Best attack Helicopter for Export Customer*

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> A very interesting videwo on the MI35-P
> 
> 
> Who is this export customer---???
> 
> *Meet The Last Upgraded Mi-35P, Russia's Best attack Helicopter for Export Customer*


Pakistan more likely


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## GriffinsRule

Most likely Myanmar. They ordered 4 Mi-24Ps last year.


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## air marshal



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## Reichmarshal

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 677098


I believe they were basically Iranian birds who were seconded to PA with Iranian crews. Iran had offered to do a survey of Baluchistan for Pakistan. They had PA lesion officers on board.
The lesion officers after a while got suspicious of the Iranian crew antics. Later it turned out that the Iranians were surveying the area to launch an attack on Baluchistan as they wanted to annex it. But soon afterward the shah was overthrown and nothing became of it.

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## Raja Porus

Reichmarshal said:


> I believe they were basically Iranian birds who were seconded to PA with Iranian crews. Iran had offered to do a survey of Baluchistan for Pakistan. They had PA lesion officers on board.
> The lesion officers after a while got suspicious of the Iranian crew antics. Later it turned out that the Iranians were surveying the area to launch an attack on Baluchistan as they wanted to annex it. But soon afterward the shah was overthrown and nothing became of it.


Are u serious? Shah would invade Pakistan!?


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## nomi007

Reichmarshal said:


> I believe they were basically Iranian birds who were seconded to PA with Iranian crews. Iran had offered to do a survey of Baluchistan for Pakistan. They had PA lesion officers on board.
> The lesion officers after a while got suspicious of the Iranian crew antics. Later it turned out that the Iranians were surveying the area to launch an attack on Baluchistan as they wanted to annex it. But soon afterward the shah was overthrown and nothing became of it.


Every country is not Nazi Germany.


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## ghazi52

*The daring escape of the Army Aviation Unit of Eastern Command*


*By Masood Anwar

December 16, 1971 -*

December 16, 1971 is part of our history. The day will always be remembered, always talked about and always written about by many and for many years to follow. To me this day is very special. I have lived through every moment of this day and I can fully recapture what it is to know the beginning.

With the rising of the sun, daylight interrupted the silence of the night. I was awakened by the sparkling light filtering through the drawn curtains. I lay motionless overwhelmed with the spirituality of life. I could hear the whispering of the trees. I could hear chirping of birds and insects, I could feel the rhythm in the buffeting of the wind and I could feel the mellow hum of life.

Stretching forward I drew the curtains apart to receive full view of the morning. It was fascinating to see the harmony, the serenity the beauty the modesty the freshness all combined in a single reflection. Indeed Nature's commitment was unchanged. But something was different which made me instinctively uneasy. I could hear no sound of guns, no blasts no buzzing of aircraft. Everything seemed intriguingly quiet.
All of that made me curious about war and peace. I said to myself why wars have to be fought to establish peace. Why wars have to be fought to decide the character of international relationships. Why this war (1971) had to happen. Why we (West Pakistanis and East Pakistanis) are tearing each other down. Why could we not find a better solution to our disputes. Why did we have to suffer the pain of brother killing a brother. I kept shaking my head frustrated and disappointed. I said to myself why did we let this happen? Finally, shaking myself from the daze I tried to sense reality and prepared myself to meet surprises that lay ahead.

Out of total of six helicopters three MI8 Russian made helicopters and three Alloutte-III French helicopters stationed in Dacca, two Alloutte helicopters remained in Dacca on the morning of December 16. Other had flown across to Akyab in neighbouring Burma in the quiet hours of night 15/16 December 1971. We were fortunate that besides helicopters pilots and engineers, many women and children who could not leave Dacca earlier, were rescued from what could have been long drawn suffering for them. Flying time between Dacca and Akyab in MI8 helicopter was 2-1/2 hours, this helicopter could cover the distance in one hop. Alloutte-III helicopter required refuelling en route, its flying time was 3-1/2 hours.

A contingency plan to this effect had earlier been finalized and necessary preparations had been made. Our colleagues who had left Dacca in the early hours, we hoped, should have reached Akyab by then but there was no way to know. We were also anxious to know how the Burmese had treated our people. Needless to say what mattered at that point of time was to find out if any possibility of our escaping against all odds still existed, and if we were to attempt any such action we had to obtain formal approval of Eastern Command Headquarters.

We got ready early to proceed to Eastern Command Headquarters laden with feelings of hope, fear and uncertainty. We were engrossed in the thought that if Eastern Command allowed us to escape, attempting 3-1/2 flight in a low flying helicopter over unfriendly terrain in broad daylight with so many 'ifs' and 'buts' would not be a simple task. The thought was frightening, but we had to win this battle of wits with the strength of our belief, with faith in the beneficence of Almighty Allah, with hope and the conviction that something miraculous was bound to happen. We also believed that shadows of fear tend to lessen when commitment is sound and we believed that honesty of purpose transforms uncertainties into realizable opportunities.

Driving through the streets of Dacca towards Eastern Command Headquarters, we witnessed extraordinary scenes of defeat and victory. New realities replacing old realities, new country in the making, relationships being destroyed, trusts being shattered. Those were emotional scenes, afterall a chapter of the history of Pakistan was coming to a close. Indeed, it was a sad ending to a good beginning. As I now write about my impressions, I hope my writing will provide food for thought to the younger population about perceptions and interpretations and how they change the course of one's thinking. How leaders develop collective consciousness of the people and how they influence their future. How ideologies take birth how opinions change and how new thinking supersedes old thinking.

When we arrived at Eastern Command Headquarters, there was unusual activity to be seen. Cars and jeeps by dozens parked all around, among these were jeepsters of UN Staff. Security personnel guarded every nook and corner of the Headquarters. Panic-stricken officers running in and out of the underground offices. We stood aside astonished and witnessed the happenings soon to learn that discussions on the modalities of ceasefire were in progress, UN Staff mediating between Eastern Command Headquarters and Indian Army Headquarters in Calcutta. Pakistani Commanders asking for conditional surrender and wanting Pakistani troops to leave E. Pakistan honourably.

Indian Commanders insisting on unconditional surrender of troops. Needless to say whatever we might have desired, Indians would have not let such an opportunity of disgracing Pakistan and its Armed Forces go waste. Anyway, having witnessed the proceedings in silence for sometime, we decided to return to our quarters to prepare ourselves to face the consequences of losing the war. We were now pretty certain about the end. Eastern Command we knew had lost Command as well as Control and had been rendered intellectually impoverished.

Our visit to the Headquarters added no further wisdom to our understanding. Whatever hope we carried had diminished altogether. But destiny had other plans for us. While we were on our way back to our quarters, halfway we were stopped by Air Officer Commanding East Pakistan Air Vice Marshal Inam Ul Haq (later retired as Air Marshal). When we met he hurriedly said "what are you boys doing here?" We informed him about our visit to the Eastern Command Headquarters. He said, "look there is no Eastern Command anymore. Surrender ceremony is to take place at 1:30pm. You have very little time. I suggest if you can you should leave and leave now. Good luck". 

Air Marshal left leaving us in a state of limbo. We looked at each other for a while, the next moment as if life had been breathed into us, we said "Allah-o-Akbar", a rush of blood and off we went to our respective helicopters. There was no looking back - our mission - 'Escape'. Around 1300 hours both helicopters were airborne. We departed Dacca on what was to be the last flight out of East Pakistan.

Defying all odds amidst confusion of war in broad daylight under the watchful eyes of the enemy, two Alloutte-III helicopters skimming the top of the trees were on course to Akyab on a 3-1/2 hours long flight. We did not for a moment hesitate taking that decision knowing fully well that we could have perished never to have been found again but for our strength in our faith and the conviction "luck favours the brave", was uninhibited.

Thorough knowledge of the terrain made our task easy otherwise navigation from a low flying helicopter zigzagging to avoid areas suspected of enemy locations would have been an impossible task. Journey seemed endless as if time had slowed its pace, but each minute that ticked brightened our spirits and every inch of land we passed we felt we were closer to our destination. Finally after 2-1/2 hours of tense flying, we crossed over to Burma. We were now over Arakan Hills. The forest below us was denser than we had thought. It was difficult to find an opening to land the helicopter for refuelling. Soon we found a small opening large enough to land the helicopter vertically down. Refuelling was hurriedly completed. We did not switch the engine off because we did not want to take any risk. Luck had indeed favoured us so far. We were soon airborne on course to Akyab.

Our immediate concern now was to discard our military uniforms, equipment, documents, weapons and ammunition in order to hide our true identity. We saw a small lake in the vicinity. Stationing the helicopter over the surface of the lake, everything including, documents weapons and ammunition were bundled together and thrown into the lake. We were releaved. We thought we had destroyed everything possible that could have revealed our identity but once at Akyab in the custody of the Burmese Authorities we could not fully convince them. Perhaps they knew who we were, otherwise our flying into Burma unannounced in military aircraft according to International Law amounted to invading a sovereign country, for which we could have been dealt with severely. Burmese Government indeed considered our case on humanitarian grounds and provided us asylum.

After a brief session of questioning, we were driven to where our colleagues had been housed. These were WWII vintage barracks located in a deserted corner of the town. We were made comfortable with two bed sheets and a wooden bed. It took some time to be acclimatized and adjusted to sleeping on wooden bed without mattress and pillow. Food was not to our taste. Although a few local Muslim families sent specially cooked food for us, but it did not help. The interesting part was the rotis which were cooked along with dozens of red ants (Soondis). We had to pick each one by one before eating.

Spending time was not easy. We kept ourselves busy in gossip and discussions and taking long walks. Luckily after a couple of days staff from our Embassy arrived. They made arrangements for our repatriation. Within a week we were flown in a Burmese Air Force Freighter plane to Rangoon via Mandlay, a Burmese Air Force Base. At Rangoon our Embassy took over the responsibility. They made arrangements for boarding and lodging and also loaned each some money for our day to day needs. We were free to move around in the town. We took this opportunity to wander around in the town visiting sites even doing some shopping. Three weeks stay in Rangoon was like paid holiday comfortable and enjoyable yet I never enjoyed the peace of mind. Often when alone I would ask myself why we humans are so forgetful and so ungrateful. How could we, so soon, forget the ordeal, the humiliation and the loss of face. How could we forget that we had been robbed of our pride and dignity. How could we forget that we had failed to come up to the mark in the hour of trial. Regrettable to say, we showed little remoarse and regret. We behaved as though everything that happened was inevitable.

Unfortunately, our behaviour even today has not changed. We show no signs of anguish, regret or sorrow. We continue to destroy relationships, betray friends, compromise on morals and ethics only to satisfy our greed for power and money. We continue to live from moment to moment occupied with self-indulgence and fortune-hunting. I do not know how long we will go on this way. How long will Allah forgive us for our follies and sins. Let us hope for the very best.

All in all we had a pleasant stay in Rangoon. Burmese are good people humble and soft-spoken. During our stay we visited the tomb of Bahadur Shah Zafar, last Mughal Emperor extradited to Rangoon by the British. His tomb was located in a narrow lane in a residential area. While I offered Fateha, I was reminded of the famous poem written by the Emperor during his captivity in Rangoon. The verses depict the intensity of emotional pain and suffering the emperor must have gone through. The philosophic depth in these verses can be well appreciated.

"Lagta nihin hai jee mera Ujree Dyaar mein. Kitna hai baad nasib Zafar

Do gas Zamin bhi Na mille Kooye Yar mein".

Among other places, we visited Buddhist Pagodas. Their pyramid like shape and lofty structure colourfully decorated added attraction for the tourists. Rangoon is also known for parks. The largest park called ONSA park is named after the founder of the country.

Everything that begins must come to an end. So did this episode of our escape from Dacca. After five weeks of stay in Burma, we were finally flown back to Pakistan to be reunited with our families and friends.

All that is now history and I sincerely believe history should be remembered because history is about people and people reflect the image of the Nation.

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## hassan1



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## nomi007

Guess the helo?


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## GriffinsRule

nomi007 said:


> Guess the helo?


Deathtrap inside the Hind

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## Scorpiooo

Any chances that new ordered Mi 35, due to deliver yet can be this variant 


MastanKhan said:


> A very interesting videwo on the MI35-P
> 
> 
> Who is this export customer---???
> 
> *Meet The Last Upgraded Mi-35P, Russia's Best attack Helicopter for Export Customer*


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## ARCH٤R

Does Pakistan operate attack helicopters from army bases with helipads?


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## MastanKhan

Scorpiooo said:


> Any chances that new ordered Mi 35, due to deliver yet can be this variant



Hi,

That is the question---. Who is this customer 'P'.

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## Imran Khan

ARCH٤R said:


> Does Pakistan operate attack helicopters from army bases with helipads?


pakistan army avitation have huge airbases . yes there are helipads and hangers in army bases but home base of helicopters are army aviation bases .they have compleate services like maintaince storage refueling at thier own bases . also they operate both fixed wing and routery wing aircrafts so they have runways helipads and compleate air base facilities over there . PAA operate 330 helicopters and some 250 aircrafts as EW/ SIGINT & ISR / UTILITY /TRANSPORT /MEDEVAC aircrafts .

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## Scorpiooo

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is the question---. Who is this customer 'P'.


That is the point P... gives some lead and secondly the recent defense Minister visit to russia with news of additional 15 to 20 Mi 35 helos order was in the air...

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## GriffinsRule

'P' has nothing to do with Pakistan. I already pointed out that the Mi-35Ps were ordered by Myanmar as well.
In fact Pakistan operates the Mi-35M version which is slightly better than the P.









Modernized Mi-35 at Army-2018


Modernized Mi-35M and Mi-35P attack helicopters featured for first time during Army-2018 expo in Kubinka, Moscow August 21-26




www.helis.com

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## Ahmet Pasha

Pakistan Army should be patient now. Turkish engine will take some time. In the meantime work on getting some Mi28s or or more advanced Mi35s instead of the barebones Mi35. 

For they meaty stuff PA should form some JVs with TAI for the upcoming ATAK-Heavy and 10ton utility helo. 

My point is instead of spending billions in installments, which will never have long term dividends for Pakistani military and defence industry. Why not invest in long term products to expand portfolio and make money just like how JFT BLK III is expected to have lots of customers.

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> 'P' has nothing to do with Pakistan. I already pointed out that the Mi-35Ps were ordered by Myanmar as well.
> In fact Pakistan operates the Mi-35M version which is slightly better than the P.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modernized Mi-35 at Army-2018
> 
> 
> Modernized Mi-35M and Mi-35P attack helicopters featured for first time during Army-2018 expo in Kubinka, Moscow August 21-26
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.helis.com


P looks more sleek


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## python-000

My question is if we can make our fighter jet so just why can't make our heavy Attack helicopter with JV with China or Turkey...


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## Imran Khan

python-000 said:


> My question is if we can make our fighter jet so just why can't make our heavy Attack helicopter with JV with China or Turkey...


its because we need less numbers and we can buy it with less budget sir .

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## ziaulislam

Imran Khan said:


> its because we need less numbers and we can buy it with less budget sir .


Doubt it..
You will need 200s to replace medium weight mi17 and . puma

The reason is availability ..we dont bother unless we are in trouble

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## Imran Khan

ziaulislam said:


> Doubt it..
> You will need 200s to replace medium weight mi17 and . puma
> 
> The reason is availability ..we dont bother unless we are in trouble


janab read question again he said heavy attack chopper not transport helicopter

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## python-000

Imran Khan said:


> its because we need less numbers and we can buy it with less budget sir .


My bro, MashAllah we already started our 5th generation fighter jet project with our limited budge then why not this or do we get AH-1Z yet in our limited budge...


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## Imran Khan

python-000 said:


> My bro, MashAllah we already started our 5th generation fighter jet project with our limited budge then why not this or do we get AH-1Z yet in our limited budge...


sir we did not need more then 100 of them its veary economical easy and relaxing to buy them rather then make them .


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## python-000

Imran Khan said:


> sir we did not need more then 100 of them its veary economical easy and relaxing to buy them rather then make them .


So do we get all 100 of them...


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## Signalian

Imran Khan said:


> its veary economical easy and relaxing to buy them rather then make them .




I disagree, respectfully.

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## Ahmet Pasha

ziaulislam said:


> Doubt it..
> You will need 200s to replace medium weight mi17 and . puma
> 
> The reason is availability ..we dont bother unless we are in trouble


Exactly Pakistani generals/PAC only springs to action when terrorists/India steps on their tail. When it comes to defence products.


Imran Khan said:


> sir we did not need more then 100 of them its veary economical easy and relaxing to buy them rather then make them .


When you learn how to fish
You can eat fish and sell it too 
And make money
Khud koi initiative bhi nai lena. Aur FDI ko bhi rona hai beth kar. Aise to nai chalta brother.





What Does the Bible Say About Give A Man A Fish Feed Him For A Day?


Bible verses about Give A Man A Fish Feed Him For A Day




www.openbible.info


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## Imran Khan

python-000 said:


> So do we get all 100 of them...


yes we have to buy 100 every 30 years and sit last time 1980s we need 50 this time we need 100


Signalian said:


> I disagree, respectfully.


i respect your point of view sir . we have limited resources and can not be burnt in choppers making . better stick on thunders .


Ahmet Pasha said:


> Exactly Pakistani generals/PAC only springs to action when terrorists/India steps on their tail. When it comes to defence products.
> 
> When you learn how to fish
> You can eat fish and sell it too
> And make money
> Khud koi initiative bhi nai lena. Aur FDI ko bhi rona hai beth kar. Aise to nai chalta brother.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What Does the Bible Say About Give A Man A Fish Feed Him For A Day?
> 
> 
> Bible verses about Give A Man A Fish Feed Him For A Day
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.openbible.info


sir nya bakheera nhi khara ker sakty is wakt may be after 10-20 years


----------



## fatman17

Z-20 to be China's most-delivered military helicopter, multiple variants expected
By Liu Xuanzun and Leng Shumei Source: Global Times Published: 2020/11/19 21

A Z-20 utility helicopter is on display prior to the 5th China Helicopter Exposition in Tianjin on October 9, 2019. Photo: Xu Luming/GT



China's latest commissioned and fully domestically made tactical utility helicopter, the Z-20, is expected to become the country's most-delivered chopper by entering service with not only the Chinese army, but also the nation's air, naval forces and armed police, with additional prospects of export sales, said the chief designer of the helicopter.

The Z-20 could play a role similar to the UH-60 Black Hawk in the US military and reach a similar number of deliveries as those for the US helicopter, analysts predicted on Thursday.

The Z-20 helicopter will be developed into a series and serve in the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Army, as well as in the Air Force, the Navy and the People's Armed Police Force, and it may even serve abroad soon, Deng Jinghui, the chief designer at the China Helicopter Research and Development Institute of the state-owned Aviation Industry Corp of China, said on China Central Television (CCTV) on Thursday.

When the Z-20 was in the design stage, the idea was for it to become a medium-sized utility helicopter with wide application scenarios just like the US' UH-60 Black Hawk series, which is in service with multiple US military branches, Wang Ya'nan, a military aviation expert and chief editor of Beijing-based Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times on Thursday.

In terms of tactical transport tasks, the Z-20 can rapidly deliver key equipment, goods and combat personnel, or retrieve the wounded from the frontline. It can also work with warships including amphibious landing ships and aircraft carriers, Wang said, noting that the helicopter can be modified into special-mission variants for anti-submarine warfare, patrol and reconnaissance duties.

Deng said that he hopes the Z-20, China's fourth-generation helicopter that represents the country's highest technological level, will become the most-delivered type of helicopter in the country and remain in service for a long time.

In terms of deliveries, the Z-20 could reach a similar level as the UH-60, Wang predicted, noting that about 2,000 to 3,000 units can be expected to be built.

The CCTV report also revealed that the Z-20 was tested in harsh environments including plateaus, extremely cold regions and regions with high humidity and temperatures prior to its commissioning, and the chopper is capable of conducting missions in all areas of China.

The Z-20 helicopter made its public debut at the National Day military parade on October 1, 2019. At the 2019 China Helicopter Development Forum held in North China'sTianjin Municipality, Wang Xibao, chief engineer at AVIC Harbin Aircraft Industry Group, told the Global Times that the craft uses many of the world's most advanced technologies, including active vibration controls, fly-by-wire, low-noise rotor designs and high performance aerodynamic designs for the rotor.

It is also the first Chinese helicopter to use the domestically developed anti-icing and deicing technology for rotors, which makes China the fourth country in the world to possess such technology, CCTV reported.

The Z-20 also features domestic engines powerful enough for it to fly in low-oxygen plateaus, according to its makers.

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## TaimiKhan

Z-10 summer trials ended, now winter trials under process.

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## Raja Porus

TaimiKhan said:


> Z-10 summer trials ended, now winter trials under process.


Haven't we already performed those trials


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## TaimiKhan

I think it has been discussed to death that they did not perform well in the first time few years back. So they went back, improved them and are back again. 

Same thing happened with vt-4s. First time they failed and came back with improved vt-5s and got selecyed.


Desert Fox 1 said:


> Haven't we already performed those trials

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## mingle

TaimiKhan said:


> Z-10 summer trials ended, now winter trials under process.


How was summer results??

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## TaimiKhan

For now classified. [emoji850]


mingle said:


> How was summer results??


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## Bilal.

mingle said:


> How was summer results??


Well if it proceeded to winter trials then that means summer trials were good/satisfactory.

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## python-000

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Haven't we already performed those trials


These trial for new version of Z-10ME not old version witch happend before...

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## jupiter2007

mingle said:


> How was summer results??



It will pass both tests. Pakistan need 40 Z-10ME as soon as possible. We can’t wait for Turks.

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## python-000

jupiter2007 said:


> It will pass in both tests. Pakistan need to 40 Z-10ME as soon as possible. We can’t wait for Turks.


You are right first start inducted 40 Z-10ME then latter inducted 30 T-129 when they available...

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## Stealth

Z10 was badly failed as far as I know.... in PA, no one likes the platform quite frankly. PA more interested in Cobras or 129

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## python-000

Stealth said:


> Z10 was badly failed as far as I know.... in PA, no one likes the platform quite frankly. PA more interested in Cobras or 129


Z-10ME are the upgreat version of Z-10s & modified for PA requirements & other hand cobras & T-129 are available at the moment...

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## nomi007

Images courtesy of Pakistani test pilots. Nice HUD view and night vision feed from the optical turret.

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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> Images courtesy of Pakistani test pilots. Nice HUD view and night vision feed from the optical turret.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 691609


These are recent ones? So winter trial about to start??


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## nomi007

mingle said:


> These are recent ones? So winter trial about to start??


Most probably old.

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## Talon

mingle said:


> These are recent ones? So winter trial about to start??


These are from the first trials that took place in Pakistan

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## Fawadqasim1

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan Army Aviation Corps* - Updated
> 
> GENERAL | *ORDER OF BATTLE *| INVENTORY | BASES
> 
> 
> Order of Battle Notes
> 
> 6 Army Aviation Sqn was disbanded in 2002 but it is believed the squadron was reformed to operate newly-delivered Bell 412EP helicopters during 2005.
> 
> HQ Rawalpindi
> HQ Pakistan Armed Forces
> 
> HQ Pakistan Army
> 
> Qasim AAB, Rawalpindi
> HQ Pakistan Army Aviation Corps
> 
> Lahore AAB
> 2 (Composite) Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> SA.316B Alouette III
> 
> Multan AAB
> 3 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> SA.315B Lama
> 
> Islamabad AAB
> 6 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> AW139
> 
> Bell 412EP
> 
> Sharea Faisal AAB, Karachi
> 7 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> IAR-316B Alouette III
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> SA.316B Alouette III
> 
> 8 (Composite) Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> AS.350B3 Écureuil
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> Peshawar AAB
> 9 (Composite) Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> SA.315B Lama
> 
> SA.316B Alouette III
> 
> Inter-Service Intelligence Department
> 
> Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'
> 
> Rahwali AAB
> 303rd Aviation Group
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> TH-300C
> 
> UH-1H Iroquois
> 
> *101st Aviation Group*
> 
> 13 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> Aero Commander 690C Super
> 
> AS.350B3 Écureuil
> 
> Beech 200 Super King Air
> 
> Cessna 421C Golden Eagle
> 
> Cessna 550 Citation II Bravo
> 
> Cessna 560 Citation V
> 
> Gulfstream Jetprop 840
> 
> IAR-330L Puma
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> Mi-172 'Hip-H'
> 
> SA.330J Puma
> 
> UH-1H Iroquois
> 
> Y-12 II Turbo Panda
> 
> 21 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'
> 
> Mi-17-V5 'Hip'
> 
> 27 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'
> 
> Mi-17-V5 'Hip'
> 
> HQ Flight
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> Quetta Airfield
> 202nd Aviation Group
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> 4 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> Bell 412EP
> 
> Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'
> 
> Gilgit AAB
> Detachment
> 
> Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'
> 
> Rahwali AAB
> Detachment
> 
> Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'
> 
> Qasim AAB, Rawalpindi
> 24 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> IAR-330L Puma
> 
> SA.330J Puma
> 
> UH-1H Iroquois
> 
> Multan AAB
> 25 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> Bell 412EP
> 
> Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'
> 
> Gilgit AAB
> Detachment
> 
> HQ Flight
> 
> Multan AAB
> *404th Aviation Group*
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> 31 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> AH-1S Cobra
> 
> Bell 206B-2 JetRanger
> 
> Bell 206B-3 JetRanger
> 
> 33 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> AH-1S Cobra
> 
> Bell 206B-2 JetRanger
> 
> Bell 206B-3 JetRanger
> 
> 35 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> AH-1F Cobra
> 
> Bell 206B-2 JetRanger
> 
> Bell 206B-3 JetRanger
> 
> 10 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> SA.315B Lama
> 
> SA.316B Alouette III
> 
> Rahwali AAB
> 11 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> SA.315B Lama
> 
> Mangla AAB
> 1 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> SA.316B Alouette III
> 
> 12 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> UH-1H Iroquois
> 
> Skardu AAB
> 5 Army Aviation Squadron
> 
> AS.350B3 Écureuil
> 
> Mi-17-1V 'Hip-H'


Guess who's name is qasim base named after

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## PanzerKiel

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Guess who's name is qasim base named after


It was early morning of 4 th January 1972 when Major Muhammad Qasim took off from Gujranwala Strip (a flight of 2 Army Aviation Squadron had been moved to Gujranwala to support the operations of field formations). It was late in the afternoon when flight headquarters at Gujranwala received a telephone call from GSO-2. The caller wanted to talk to Major Qasim and apologized for not sending the vehicle at Satrah Strip where Major Qasim was to land. He was surprised when informed that Major Qasim had not returned, as according to him Major Qasim had left an hour ago.

It was then that the search for the missing aircraft started. All the inquiries revealed that Major Qasim took off from Satrah for Gujranwala at 1200 hours on 4th January 1972, in L-19 (No-003) with 2nd Lieutenant Muhammad Humayun Raza, a Bengali officer of 24 Signal Battalion, on board. The air force agencies and the troops on the Forward Defended Localities were contacted but nothing was known except Major Qasim had taken off from Satrah. Soon after, the BBC and the All India Radio broke the news of the hijacking of a L-19 and that Major Qasim had been shot dead.

It was revealed later, that when Major Qasim landed at Satrah, 2nd Lieutenant Humayun Raza contacted him and requested for a lift to Gujranwala. (This Bengali officer had gone through the aviation aptitude test before the war.) Major Qasim in his usual helpful attitude and politeness promised to pick him up after he completed his mission. He, however, also advised him to get permission from the divisional headquarters for the airlift. After dropping the brigade commander in Pasrur, Major Qasim, on his way back, landed at Satrah to pick up this officer, not knowing that the passenger had different plans and was going to be his assassin.

According to the team responsible for maintaining the strip, Major Qasim took off and then made a circuit as if to land back but went around on finals. This information, and the position of the wounds after post mortem, revealed that one bullet was fired at the right cheek which went through the left cheek and the second bullet was fired from the right ear which penetrated the brain. It indicates that 2nd Lieutenant Raza probably had threatened Major Qasim to turn towards India soon after take off, but on refusal, and seeing him attempting to land back, fired the first ound. This first round was not fatal and Major Qasim still attempted to land back. This is also validated by the accounts of eye witnesses on ground, who described the aircraft banking and then straightening up. It is at this stage that Humayun fired the second fatal round. After shooting Major Qasim, this officer knowing a bit of flying, flew towards India.

A few words about the assassin. More than the so-called patriotism, assassin Raza wanted to avoid the punishment he was to receive from the divisional commander the following day for driving without license and over running an old woman.

Major Qasim's body was received from India on 7th January 1972 ie, after four days of his shahadat. Major Qasim was awarded Sitara-i-Jur'at for the act of bravery and supreme sacrifice in an effort to uphold the honour of his motherland. Later, Army Aviation Base Dhamial was named after Major Muhammad Qasim. It is now known as Qasim Army Aviation Base.

Major Muhammad Qasim was born on 1 st October 1939 in Village Adina, District Mardan. He was commissioned in the Corps of Signals in October 1960. He attended Basic Flying Course P-6 in 1964 and was posted to 1 Army Aviation Squadron. He took active part in 1965 War and flew many operational sorties. In 1969 he qualified as Flying Instructor on L-19 from Flying Instructor School, PAF Academy. Major Qasim served as instructor in Army Aviation School from 1969 to 1971, and in the last week of November 1971, he was attached with 2 Army Aviation Squadron.
_______________________

Excerpted from the book "History of Army Aviation 1947-2007" by Maj Gen Mohammad Azam (Retd)

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## Fawadqasim1

PanzerKiel said:


> It was early morning of 4 th January 1972 when Major Muhammad Qasim took off from Gujranwala Strip (a flight of 2 Army Aviation Squadron had been moved to Gujranwala to support the operations of field formations). It was late in the afternoon when flight headquarters at Gujranwala received a telephone call from GSO-2. The caller wanted to talk to Major Qasim and apologized for not sending the vehicle at Satrah Strip where Major Qasim was to land. He was surprised when informed that Major Qasim had not returned, as according to him Major Qasim had left an hour ago.
> 
> It was then that the search for the missing aircraft started. All the inquiries revealed that Major Qasim took off from Satrah for Gujranwala at 1200 hours on 4th January 1972, in L-19 (No-003) with 2nd Lieutenant Muhammad Humayun Raza, a Bengali officer of 24 Signal Battalion, on board. The air force agencies and the troops on the Forward Defended Localities were contacted but nothing was known except Major Qasim had taken off from Satrah. Soon after, the BBC and the All India Radio broke the news of the hijacking of a L-19 and that Major Qasim had been shot dead.
> 
> It was revealed later, that when Major Qasim landed at Satrah, 2nd Lieutenant Humayun Raza contacted him and requested for a lift to Gujranwala. (This Bengali officer had gone through the aviation aptitude test before the war.) Major Qasim in his usual helpful attitude and politeness promised to pick him up after he completed his mission. He, however, also advised him to get permission from the divisional headquarters for the airlift. After dropping the brigade commander in Pasrur, Major Qasim, on his way back, landed at Satrah to pick up this officer, not knowing that the passenger had different plans and was going to be his assassin.
> 
> According to the team responsible for maintaining the strip, Major Qasim took off and then made a circuit as if to land back but went around on finals. This information, and the position of the wounds after post mortem, revealed that one bullet was fired at the right cheek which went through the left cheek and the second bullet was fired from the right ear which penetrated the brain. It indicates that 2nd Lieutenant Raza probably had threatened Major Qasim to turn towards India soon after take off, but on refusal, and seeing him attempting to land back, fired the first ound. This first round was not fatal and Major Qasim still attempted to land back. This is also validated by the accounts of eye witnesses on ground, who described the aircraft banking and then straightening up. It is at this stage that Humayun fired the second fatal round. After shooting Major Qasim, this officer knowing a bit of flying, flew towards India.
> 
> A few words about the assassin. More than the so-called patriotism, assassin Raza wanted to avoid the punishment he was to receive from the divisional commander the following day for driving without license and over running an old woman.
> 
> Major Qasim's body was received from India on 7th January 1972 ie, after four days of his shahadat. Major Qasim was awarded Sitara-i-Jur'at for the act of bravery and supreme sacrifice in an effort to uphold the honour of his motherland. Later, Army Aviation Base Dhamial was named after Major Muhammad Qasim. It is now known as Qasim Army Aviation Base.
> 
> Major Muhammad Qasim was born on 1 st October 1939 in Village Adina, District Mardan. He was commissioned in the Corps of Signals in October 1960. He attended Basic Flying Course P-6 in 1964 and was posted to 1 Army Aviation Squadron. He took active part in 1965 War and flew many operational sorties. In 1969 he qualified as Flying Instructor on L-19 from Flying Instructor School, PAF Academy. Major Qasim served as instructor in Army Aviation School from 1969 to 1971, and in the last week of November 1971, he was attached with 2 Army Aviation Squadron.
> _______________________
> 
> Excerpted from the book "History of Army Aviation 1947-2007" by Maj Gen Mohammad Azam (Retd)


My father

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## Ahmet Pasha

PanzerKiel said:


> It was early morning of 4 th January 1972 when Major Muhammad Qasim took off from Gujranwala Strip (a flight of 2 Army Aviation Squadron had been moved to Gujranwala to support the operations of field formations). It was late in the afternoon when flight headquarters at Gujranwala received a telephone call from GSO-2. The caller wanted to talk to Major Qasim and apologized for not sending the vehicle at Satrah Strip where Major Qasim was to land. He was surprised when informed that Major Qasim had not returned, as according to him Major Qasim had left an hour ago.
> 
> It was then that the search for the missing aircraft started. All the inquiries revealed that Major Qasim took off from Satrah for Gujranwala at 1200 hours on 4th January 1972, in L-19 (No-003) with 2nd Lieutenant Muhammad Humayun Raza, a Bengali officer of 24 Signal Battalion, on board. The air force agencies and the troops on the Forward Defended Localities were contacted but nothing was known except Major Qasim had taken off from Satrah. Soon after, the BBC and the All India Radio broke the news of the hijacking of a L-19 and that Major Qasim had been shot dead.
> 
> It was revealed later, that when Major Qasim landed at Satrah, 2nd Lieutenant Humayun Raza contacted him and requested for a lift to Gujranwala. (This Bengali officer had gone through the aviation aptitude test before the war.) Major Qasim in his usual helpful attitude and politeness promised to pick him up after he completed his mission. He, however, also advised him to get permission from the divisional headquarters for the airlift. After dropping the brigade commander in Pasrur, Major Qasim, on his way back, landed at Satrah to pick up this officer, not knowing that the passenger had different plans and was going to be his assassin.
> 
> According to the team responsible for maintaining the strip, Major Qasim took off and then made a circuit as if to land back but went around on finals. This information, and the position of the wounds after post mortem, revealed that one bullet was fired at the right cheek which went through the left cheek and the second bullet was fired from the right ear which penetrated the brain. It indicates that 2nd Lieutenant Raza probably had threatened Major Qasim to turn towards India soon after take off, but on refusal, and seeing him attempting to land back, fired the first ound. This first round was not fatal and Major Qasim still attempted to land back. This is also validated by the accounts of eye witnesses on ground, who described the aircraft banking and then straightening up. It is at this stage that Humayun fired the second fatal round. After shooting Major Qasim, this officer knowing a bit of flying, flew towards India.
> 
> A few words about the assassin. More than the so-called patriotism, assassin Raza wanted to avoid the punishment he was to receive from the divisional commander the following day for driving without license and over running an old woman.
> 
> Major Qasim's body was received from India on 7th January 1972 ie, after four days of his shahadat. Major Qasim was awarded Sitara-i-Jur'at for the act of bravery and supreme sacrifice in an effort to uphold the honour of his motherland. Later, Army Aviation Base Dhamial was named after Major Muhammad Qasim. It is now known as Qasim Army Aviation Base.
> 
> Major Muhammad Qasim was born on 1 st October 1939 in Village Adina, District Mardan. He was commissioned in the Corps of Signals in October 1960. He attended Basic Flying Course P-6 in 1964 and was posted to 1 Army Aviation Squadron. He took active part in 1965 War and flew many operational sorties. In 1969 he qualified as Flying Instructor on L-19 from Flying Instructor School, PAF Academy. Major Qasim served as instructor in Army Aviation School from 1969 to 1971, and in the last week of November 1971, he was attached with 2 Army Aviation Squadron.
> _______________________
> 
> Excerpted from the book "History of Army Aviation 1947-2007" by Maj Gen Mohammad Azam (Retd)



Isn't it a recurring thing the Rashid Minhas episode bengali guy was also doing same thing. Did they have directions to do these exact same things from behind??

Also why PAA pilots have to learn how to fly Mushak if they are going to fly Helicopters? Does army operate K8s?? Or for C208 Grand caravans, King airs and VIP business jets?(but these are very small in number)

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## PanzerKiel

Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father


Salutes to him

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## Ahmet Pasha

Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father



We honor and thank your father for his great sacrifice.

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## Fawadqasim1

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Isn't it a recurring thing the Rashid Minhas episode bengali guy was also doing same thing. Did they have directions to do these exact same things from behind??
> 
> Also why PAA pilots have to learn how to fly Mushak if they are going to fly Helicopters? Does army operate K8s?? Or for C208 Grand caravans, King airs and VIP business jets?(but these are very small in number)


It was not mushak but an L19 in which seating arrangement is in tandem not side by side


Ahmet Pasha said:


> We honor and thank your father for his great sacrifice.


Thanks

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## Ahmet Pasha

Fawadqasim1 said:


> It was not mushak but an L19 in which seating arrangement is in tenden not side by side


Yeah L19 bird dogs right?
I know the type. It was the precurso military version of Cessna 152/172 I was training on.


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## fatman17

Wow. what a brave officer, you must be so proud of him


Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father

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## Fawadqasim1

PanzerKiel said:


> Salutes to him
> 
> View attachment 691760


Thanks


Ahmet Pasha said:


> Yeah L19 bird dogs right?
> I know the type. It was the precurso military version of Cessna 152/172 I was training on.


I too i got my cpl from Peshawar flying club
We can't say me too now can we


fatman17 said:


> Wow. what a brave officer, you must be so proud of him


It was a difficult journey as an orphan but yes Absolutely he made us proud.

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## Caprxl

Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father


 
Please accept my Salute & Gratitude.

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## HRK

Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father





Fawadqasim1 said:


> It was a difficult journey as an orphan but yes Absolutely he made us proud.



Salute to your farther for his act of great valour for the Honour of the Nation but our words are not enough to pay homage to any Shaheed and to his family as Shahadat is always only the first step taken the Shaheed himself but the rest of journey is undertook by the family of Shaheed for the rest of their lives.

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## Fawadqasim1

HRK said:


> Salute to your farther for his act of great valour for the Honour of the Nation but our words are not enough to pay homage to any Shaheed and to his family as Shahadat is always only the first step taken the Shaheed himself but the rest of journey is undertook by the family of Shaheed for the rest of their lives.


Thanks

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## Reichsmarschall

No News about zulus?


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## Dreamer.

Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father


He died resisting the enemy. Salam to your shaheed father.

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## air marshal



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## mingle

Hodor said:


> These are from the first trials that took place in Pakistan


Any update about Zulus??


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## Dazzler

Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father



Son of a martyr!

The nation salutes you!

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## khail007

Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father



Dear your father is an eternal gift for the motherland his sacrificed will be remembered till the end of the world. Salute and prayers for your Shaheed father.
We as nation proud of him and you, yourself is one of your father's gift for us. We prayer for the blessings and kindness of ALLAH SWT for you and your whole family - Ameen.

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## python-000

is that Z-10ME...

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## Zarvan

python-000 said:


> View attachment 692494
> 
> is that Z-10ME...


Where is the picture from and How old is the picture ?
So are we receiving T-129 or not ???

@Dazzler @Tipu7 @The Eagle @Sulman Badshah @PanzerKiel

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## mingle

python-000 said:


> View attachment 692494
> 
> is that Z-10ME...


Looks like it exhaust nozzles are upwards


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## Raja Porus

Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father


salutes, sir.Great act of valour, indeed. Pakistan is proud to have such bold and daring sons.

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## Awan68

Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father


Cant even begin to comprehend the sacrifice of your family, salutations to ur great father.

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## ghazi52



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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father


Your father is carrying out the duty of protecting the frontiers of Pak, for the _Shehits_ don't die like normal folks, and a virtual world of sustenance, where they keep on carrying out their war-time functions, is created for them by HIS PERMISSION...

The sacrifice of the _Shehits _can't be paid back....

And, _La'net_ on the traitor, who shot on the back...

The following video on ATAK-2 (with subtitles in English), a 10-ton beast of prey with extremely powerful EW/radar suits along with long range missiles of all sorts, is in honor of the AA _Shehit _warriors! This chopper will have indigenous engines with the 1st test flight in 2023....

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## fatman17

Z10 HUD

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## baqai

Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father



Thanks for the sacrifice your family made for our country

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## Sayfullah

Do u think Pakistan should get these? 
They seem perfect for Pakistan

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## Fawadqasim1

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> View attachment 693356
> 
> 
> Do u think Pakistan should get these?
> They seem perfect for Pakistan


I think we should try it

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## Raja Porus

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> View attachment 693356
> 
> 
> Do u think Pakistan should get these?
> They seem perfect for Pakistan


It's the golden eagle nah, for the VT4s? Are those only A2A or can it also carry atgms, still it will be a cost effective solution of Indian Appaches

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## Sayfullah

Yes it’s the golden eagle. And yeah it’s made to work with vt4. Also those on blue arrow 9 on it so yeah it can carry atgms. It can also work as a target spotter and guide the fire of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and self-propelled artillery. It has co-axial mounted twin propellers and is characterized by a high load carrying ability over longer distances. The drone can carry a large payload, has a long endurance even when fully loaded, and a compact structure that can be easily stored and transported. It can also resist strong winds, carry different types of electro-optical pods and payloads.

I think it’s a perfect cost effective platform Pakistan army can use to counter Indians and especially since our t-129s are late.


> It's the golden eagle nah, for the VT4s? Are those only A2A or can it also carry atgms, still it will be a cost effective solution of Indian Appaches

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## Raja Porus

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Yes it’s the golden eagle. And yeah it’s made to work with vt4. Also those on blue arrow 9 on it so yeah it can carry atgms. It can also work as a target spotter and guide the fire of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and self-propelled artillery. It has co-axial mounted twin propellers and is characterized by a high load carrying ability over longer distances. The drone can carry a large payload, has a long endurance even when fully loaded, and a compact structure that can be easily stored and transported. It can also resist strong winds, carry different types of electro-optical pods and payloads.
> 
> I think it’s a perfect cost effective platform Pakistan army can use to counter Indians and especially since our t-129s are late.


Yses but it's specs are still not available,but I think PA has bought it

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## Incog_nito

What PAA is planning for the Attack helicopter acquisition?

15 to 30 AH-1Z Vipers
15 to 30 T-129P Atak
15 to 30 Z-10P Block-II

And also possible UAVs like CR-5000?
Follow my Thread:









China’s CR500 ‘Golden Eagle’ Unmanned Helicopter - Possibility in PAA?


China’s China North Industries Group Corporation Limited (NORINCO) was recently cleared to export its reconnaissance-attack helicopter drone system, the CR500 ‘Golden Eagle.’ The name of the international customer was not revealed nor the number of drones contracted. The customer could be from...



defence.pk

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## MIRauf

Incog_nito said:


> What PAA is planning for the Attack helicopter acquisition?
> 
> 15 to 30 AH-1Z Vipers
> 15 to 30 T-129P Atak
> 15 to 30 Z-10P Block-II
> 
> And also possible UAVs like CR-5000?
> Follow my Thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China’s CR500 ‘Golden Eagle’ Unmanned Helicopter - Possibility in PAA?
> 
> 
> China’s China North Industries Group Corporation Limited (NORINCO) was recently cleared to export its reconnaissance-attack helicopter drone system, the CR500 ‘Golden Eagle.’ The name of the international customer was not revealed nor the number of drones contracted. The customer could be from...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


Ideally it should be two variants, one high end other the work horse in larger numbers. I personally don't see three different variants in PA service specially if PA is also looking at ATAK-II variant as well in the future. With ATAK-II this scenario will turn into a logistics nightmare, although few will argue that there be quite a commonality between ATAk-I and ATAK-II.

In ideal world, it should be AH-1Z and ATAK-I / Z10.

15-30 AH-1Z ( Minimum )
40-60 ATAK-I / Z-10 ( minimum )

PS: Sorry, didn't mean to write a thesis on it, just couldn't pen in all down in 'Cliff Notes'


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## Incog_nito

MIRauf said:


> Ideally it should be two variants, one high end other the work horse in larger numbers. I personally don't see three different variants in PA service specially if PA is also looking at ATAK-II variant as well in the future. With ATAK-II this scenario will turn into a logistics nightmare, although few will argue that there be quite a commonality between ATAk-I and ATAK-II.
> 
> In ideal world, it should be AH-1Z and ATAK-I / Z10.
> 
> 15-30 AH-1Z ( Minimum )
> 40-60 ATAK-I / Z-10 ( minimum )
> 
> PS: Sorry, didn't mean to write a thesis on it, just couldn't pen in all down in 'Cliff Notes'



AH-1Z Vipers: 30
T-129P Atak: 30
Z-10P Block-II: 30

While 
30 T-129P Atak-II by 2025.


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## Tipu7

Plz refrain from firing blind shots in every second thread related to Pakistan military procurements. Instead of making fan boyish shopping lists, you should add something valuable in the discussion. 


Incog_nito said:


> AH-1Z Vipers: 30
> T-129P Atak: 30
> Z-10P Block-II: 30
> 
> While
> 30 T-129P Atak-II by 2025.

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## Goenitz

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Do u think Pakistan should get these?


@JamD @sal29 @The Raven 
This could be a good initiative... not only for getting expertise for AZM but for COIN ops...
If Pak can manufacture these with all the rights. That would be a big thing.

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## The Raven

Goenitz said:


> @JamD @sal29 @The Raven
> This could be a good initiative... not only for getting expertise for AZM but for COIN ops...
> If Pak can manufacture these with all the rights. That would be a big thing.



I think they'd be very useful when integrated with armoured divisions to provide real-time recon, and their relatively small size should afford good survivability, as well as COIN ops. Not sure how much they would contribute to Azm though, as the focus here is on fixed wing MALE/HALE UAV capability, rather than small, tactical rotary UAVs.


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## sal29

Goenitz said:


> @JamD @sal29 @The Raven
> This could be a good initiative... not only for getting expertise for AZM but for COIN ops...
> If Pak can manufacture these with all the rights. That would be a big thing.



I am not sure of the price. Also I think for COIN operations rather cheap surveillance drones and cheap attack drones will be more than enough as we don't do COIN operations in a contested airspace. This would be very useful if it has the capability to attack armor from top down but the size of it and the size of the weapons attached doesn't seem like it will have that capability.

Its also not just buying there is a significant effort put in training of human resources. We need the soldiers who don't much experience operating tech to be able to use these small crafts as they don't have very long range and usually have point to point line of sight and com links.

I great proponent of developing this kind technology which requires less money to be developed by Pakistan rather than importing it as we develop locally we can mass produce it and I rather have these crafts take the brunt of enemy area denial capability rather than our attack helicopters or aircraft. I think in the new battlefield cheaper mass produced drones can change the tide of war.


----------



## Goenitz

The Raven said:


> elatively small size should afford good survivability, as well as* COIN ops*. Not sure how much they would contribute to *Azm* though


Not like surveillance and COIN as a QRF as Balochistan is too big ,but for convoy support. Like even russians use MI 35 for ther convoy movements..
Also it can provide a good anti armour role as an elevated platform.
For azm, there is a lot to learn from this.. Its transmission. You know how did they make lathe? Firstly for swiss watches in 17-1800s. So we need small lathe/CNC/3D printer to make reliable and precision control gear boxes and rotor shaft. Similarly, for forging and making steel, it is easy. 
Learning making small turboshaft engines will be a booster for our all drones (small or big) and also for our cruise missile of all sorts..
Making drone aircraft is way easier than this, so learning will be immense...


sal29 said:


> Also I think for COIN operations rather cheap surveillance drones and cheap attack


Yes, I agree but good turn rate, landing/takeoff so better for post for perimeter surveillance and convoy support.


sal29 said:


> Its also not just *buying *there is a significant effort put in training of human resources


As for human resource training, I think army should operate them in Karachi for surveillance for tracking target killers etc.


----------



## python-000

Incog_nito said:


> What PAA is planning for the Attack helicopter acquisition?
> 
> 15 to 30 AH-1Z Vipers
> 15 to 30 T-129P Atak
> 15 to 30 Z-10P Block-II
> 
> And also possible UAVs like CR-5000?
> Follow my Thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China’s CR500 ‘Golden Eagle’ Unmanned Helicopter - Possibility in PAA?
> 
> 
> China’s China North Industries Group Corporation Limited (NORINCO) was recently cleared to export its reconnaissance-attack helicopter drone system, the CR500 ‘Golden Eagle.’ The name of the international customer was not revealed nor the number of drones contracted. The customer could be from...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


No my bro, something like this can posible.
15 to 20 MI-28N from Russia
30 to 40 Z10-ME from China
30 to 40 T-129B from Turkey...


----------



## Incog_nito

python-000 said:


> No my bro, something like this can posible.
> 15 to 20 MI-28N from Russia
> 30 to 40 Z10-ME from China
> 30 to 40 T-129B from Turkey...



Let's see. 

30 T-129 ATAK are coming soon.


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## Imran Khan

Incog_nito said:


> Let's see.
> 
> 30 T-129 ATAK are coming soon.

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## Incog_nito

Imran Khan said:


> View attachment 697504


Time will tell Sir


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## python-000



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## TOPGUN

You guys are still talking about a dead horse lolz.

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## Incog_nito

TOPGUN said:


> You guys are still talking about a dead horse lolz.



Do you mean Z-10s?

Z-10 Block-II will be coming soon. As PAA is also diversifying its supply chain.

USA
Turkish
Chinese

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## TOPGUN

Incog_nito said:


> Do you mean Z-10s?
> 
> Z-10 Block-II will be coming soon. As PAA is also diversifying its supply chain.
> 
> USA
> Turkish
> Chinese



No not Z-10 was referring towards the Turkish bird.

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## Cool_Soldier

Turkey Option is stuck due to USA sanction. It is delayed for years due to engine issue
USA Zulu are halt due to USA not agreed to give accord to actual agreement.
China upgraded option is still need to be accepted by PAA.

So, dear fellows, all three options are not yet clear. The zulu deal was done in previous US govt and now same party is coming in power. that brings back some hope.
May be new US government ad Pakistan's help in Afghan resolution will pay the way towards first two option.


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## Incog_nito

TOPGUN said:


> No not Z-10 was referring towards the Turkish bird.



I wonder why PAA didn't get Z-10 Block-Is.


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## Aamir Hussain

Incog_nito said:


> I wonder why PAA didn't get Z-10 Block-Is.


There is no such thing as Z-10 Block-I only Z-10ME is out there which is an upgraded and uprated version of Z-10.

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## Readerdefence

Hi most of the Chinese arsenal which been tried and tested and back to China in terms of Pak specifications are back into the folds of Pakistani army/airforce 
so definitely Z10 will come can be by next year or so if not something for PAF 
Atak deal still looming but offcourse engine hurdles have to take out by Turks in this regards they are building ships for PN and extending their credit line further as long as PA stick to ATAk and offcourse extend timeline this is something vice versa between TURKIS and Pakistanis 
thank you


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## air marshal

Private Bombardier BD-700-1A11 Global 5000 - Photo by Rehan Waheed - Falcons.PK







falcons.pk

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Ex-Jordanian AH-1S Cobra And AS-330 Puma from PAA.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Readerdefence said:


> Hi most of the Chinese arsenal which been tried and tested and back to China in terms of Pak specifications are back into the folds of Pakistani army/airforce
> so definitely Z10 will come can be by next year or so if not something for PAF
> Atak deal still looming but offcourse engine hurdles have to take out by Turks in this regards they are building ships for PN and extending their credit line further as long as PA stick to ATAk and offcourse extend timeline this is something vice versa between TURKIS and Pakistanis
> thank you


How is Chinese Z-10 tried and tested?

Whereas, ATAK has been truly combat proven against Kurdish fighter within Turkey and various factions in Syrian Afrin operations.


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## aziqbal

yes the Z10 has proved to be a absolute pile of crap, no thanks


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## Readerdefence

Ahmet Pasha said:


> How is Chinese Z-10 tried and tested?
> 
> Whereas, ATAK has been truly combat proven against Kurdish fighter within Turkey and various factions in Syrian Afrin operations.


Hi it’s been tired and tested by army aviation that’s why been send back for further upgrades accordingly now if we talk about testing in real warfare most of the Chinese gadgets not been tested accordingly as I’m not advocating not to buy one or leave other but at the moment if army aviation is in dire need of a gunship Z10 at the moment only available platform Pakistan
thank you
images coutrsey by78 SDF

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## Ahmet Pasha

Readerdefence said:


> Hi it’s been tired and tested by army aviation that’s why been send back for further upgrades accordingly now if we talk about testing in real warfare most of the Chinese gadgets not been tested accordingly as I’m not advocating not to buy one or leave other but at the moment if army aviation is in dire need of a gunship Z10 at the moment only available platform Pakistan
> thank you
> images coutrsey by78 SDF
> View attachment 704987
> View attachment 704988
> View attachment 704989
> View attachment 704990
> View attachment 704991
> View attachment 704991
> View attachment 704987
> View attachment 704991
> View attachment 704988


Ok. My earlier post was because İ thought, you were talking about combat testing.

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## Reddawn

Are there plans to purchase more Mi17s? The Pumas will need replacing soon.

Of all the footage of PAA Mi17s I've never seen troops embark/disembark using the rear ramp. Always the side doors. My question to knowledgeable members is that in combat is the rear ramp used to quickly disembark/embark troops? I'm assuming door gunners are placed port and starboard? Or is the Mi17 only used behind the front lines to ferry troops/supplies and never as an assault help?


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## Shabi1

Let's add another curve ball to the mix. The link says a customer in South Asia which has also bought VT-4 is procuring CR-500 UCAVs, this is a hint towards Pakistan. These can integrate with VT-4s as armed spotters. I think in conventional role these could be deployed in greater numbers and be better tank busters in the modern high threat environment.
Such a procurement would give PA some relaxation in inducting manned gunships. Let's wait and see 23rd March parade isn't far.









China’s CR500 ‘Golden Eagle’ Unmanned Helicopter Finds Export Customer


China’s China North Industries Group Corporation Limited (NORINCO) was recently cleared to export its reconnaissance-attack helicopter drone system, the CR500 ‘Golden Eagle.’ The name of the international customer was not revealed nor the number of drones contracted. The customer could be from...




www.defenseworld.net

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## Incog_nito

What are possibilities that PA will negotiate a deal with USA for 12 AH-1Z Cobras for $1 Billion as proposed?
With the current threats from all four corners of the borders, the Pak Army Aviation needs to strengthen its Attack Helicopter Fleet.

30 AH-1Z Vipers
30 T-129 ATAK
30 Z-10
These numbers should be increased based on the newer models available over the course of time.


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## fatman17

It was reported in February 2020 that Pakistani Army has shown a serious interest in *Z-10ME* after the Turkish T129 attack helicopter deal was jeopardized. A recent video (September 2018) suggested that some *Z-10*s and *Z-10H*s (S/N LH9621xx, 9531xx, 9631xx, 9511xx, 9911xx) have been further upgraded. It features external ceramic armor plates outside the forward and back cockpits as well as the engine compartment to provide a better protection against small AAA fire. MAWS sensors were installed on both sides of the nose. The gunner also wears the new HMD. The latest image (February 2020) indicated some have redesigned engine exhausts facing upward similar to those onboard *Z-10ME* in order to reduce IR signature (S/N 9531xx, 9921xx), suggesting the engine has been upgraded. The latest video (July 2020) indicated that *Z-10 *is capable of firing the MMW guided KD-X fire-and-forget ATGM similar to American AGM-114L.
_- Last Updated 1/19/21_

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## MIRauf

Incog_nito said:


> What are possibilities that PA will negotiate a deal with USA for 12 AH-1Z Cobras for $1 Billion as proposed?
> With the current threats from all four corners of the borders, the Pak Army Aviation needs to strengthen its Attack Helicopter Fleet.
> 
> 30 AH-1Z Vipers
> 30 T-129 ATAK
> 30 Z-10
> These numbers should be increased based on the newer models available over the course of time.


Can you care to expand on this list ? why and how they will serve PA ? in what category and or capacity ? Make a strong solid case for PA to induct three different types, instead of two, any case beside how good they will look or how and why you would like to see these birds in PA colors. While at it, also explain to PA how they will need to setup, training, maintenance and field support for these three types.

"PS: Sorry, I didn't mean to write a theses on this, just couldn't pen it all down in Cliff Notes."
-- .. .-.


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## Signalian

Incog_nito said:


> What are possibilities that PA will negotiate a deal with USA for 12 AH-1Z Cobras for $1 Billion as proposed?
> With the current threats from all four corners of the borders, the Pak Army Aviation needs to strengthen its Attack Helicopter Fleet.
> 
> 30 AH-1Z Vipers
> 30 T-129 ATAK
> 30 Z-10
> These numbers should be increased based on the newer models available over the course of time.



3 different platforms having 90 pieces while mission profile remains almost same. American, Turkish and Chinese, all having different engines and parts. 2 of these can share weapon systems. 2 of these will have MmW radars. All will have different sensors with nearly same functionality. Datalinks of 2 can be be interlinked while Z-10 maybe connected through another interconnecting system giving latency of 1-2 msec. Overhauling time frame could be different. Ground crews will need to specialize in at least two of these while still being able to maintain the 3rd bird. Transitioning from -1F to -1Z could be easier but the other two gunships would be different machines. 90 would mean 6 x Squadrons considering 12 per squadron while others are spare. Current gunship squadrons are 3 so basically doubling the force with better platform and weapon systems.

The fate of 48 x AH-1F has yet to be ascertained. The "jugaroo" way things work in Pakistan, these AH-1F can still be used in COIN Ops. A C4I team in Mi-17 equipped with MmW radar, 2-3 surveillance drones in air and a handful of AH-1F. The Mi-17 and drones guide the AH-1F to targets which takes them out through strafing or rickets or TOW/BS. There is low threat level of SAM/RPG in COIN war. The missing weapon is a FnF Missile. Integration of BARQ missile should have been considered for AH-1F and future gunship platforms.

If these 48 x AH-1F are not retired instead divided amongst I,II and V Corps as dedicated assets, this would give the Corps HQs more flexibility and firepower instead of requesting for gunships through Aviation Command or GHQ or Regional Command. 

The need of transport heli will always be there. RVFC is providing mules for transport in mountain regions. A transport helicopter with adequate cargo space or sling load capability is a better option. Mules on tracks and trucks on roads in mountains can be a back up or otherwise size/weight restrictions of cargo. A dedicated Med Evac variant of transport helicopter with 4 x stretchers is needed since Field hospitals and specialized medical departments in CMHs are located at central places only.

Almost every US Divisional formation has an aviation brigade having 1 attack squadron and 2-3 transport squadrons. This may not be possible in divisional structure of PA but some Corps HQs can be assigned dedicated assets.

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## Raja Porus

Signalian said:


> If these 48 x AH-1F are not retired instead divided amongst I,II and V Corps as dedicated assets, this would give the Corps HQs more flexibility and firepower instead of requesting for gunships through Aviation Command or GHQ or Regional Command.


Especially V corps


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## Imran Khan

where are delivered which @Khafee told us a year or so ago ?

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## air marshal



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> 3 different platforms having 90 pieces while mission profile remains almost same. American, Turkish and Chinese, all having different engines and parts. 2 of these can share weapon systems. 2 of these will have MmW radars. All will have different sensors with nearly same functionality. Datalinks of 2 can be be interlinked while Z-10 maybe connected through another interconnecting system giving latency of 1-2 msec. Overhauling time frame could be different. Ground crews will need to specialize in at least two of these while still being able to maintain the 3rd bird. Transitioning from -1F to -1Z could be easier but the other two gunships would be different machines. 90 would mean 6 x Squadrons considering 12 per squadron while others are spare. Current gunship squadrons are 3 so basically doubling the force with better platform and weapon systems.
> 
> The fate of 48 x AH-1F has yet to be ascertained. The "jugaroo" way things work in Pakistan, these AH-1F can still be used in COIN Ops. A C4I team in Mi-17 equipped with MmW radar, 2-3 surveillance drones in air and a handful of AH-1F. The Mi-17 and drones guide the AH-1F to targets which takes them out through strafing or rickets or TOW/BS. There is low threat level of SAM/RPG in COIN war. The missing weapon is a FnF Missile. Integration of BARQ missile should have been considered for AH-1F and future gunship platforms.
> 
> If these 48 x AH-1F are not retired instead divided amongst I,II and V Corps as dedicated assets, this would give the Corps HQs more flexibility and firepower instead of requesting for gunships through Aviation Command or GHQ or Regional Command.
> 
> The need of transport heli will always be there. RVFC is providing mules for transport in mountain regions. A transport helicopter with adequate cargo space or sling load capability is a better option. Mules on tracks and trucks on roads in mountains can be a back up or otherwise size/weight restrictions of cargo. A dedicated Med Evac variant of transport helicopter with 4 x stretchers is needed since Field hospitals and specialized medical departments in CMHs are located at central places only.
> 
> Almost every US Divisional formation has an aviation brigade having 1 attack squadron and 2-3 transport squadrons. This may not be possible in divisional structure of PA but some Corps HQs can be assigned dedicated assets.


The original plan was 15 AH-1Z and 30 T129, so at least 3 squadrons with 15 helicopters each (I guess the PAA could break the units down further). However, in 2016 TAI hinted the PA was going to acquire a "large number" of T129s through the long-term.

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## python-000

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The original plan was 15 AH-1Z and 30 T129, so at least 3 squadrons with 15 helicopters each (I guess the PAA could break the units down further). However, in 2016 TAI hinted the PA was going to acquire a "large number" of T129s through the long-term.


Salam Bilal Khan bro what is the status of ongoing trials of Z-10ME & when we inducted them because T-129 take long time...


----------



## ghazi52

MI-17-1

© Syed Zohaib Zaidi

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## ghazi52



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## Reichsmarschall

Blacklight said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER @airomerix @Tipu7 @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Caprxl @Foxtrot Alpha @Slav Defence @Sulman Badshah
> 
> The first two have landed in Pak Watan. The deliveries have started. Who will be posting the first pics?


Any recent picture?

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## fatman17

PAA

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## Raja Porus

I think we should wait for 23rd march for this news to be either proved or debunked


Reichsmarschall said:


> Any recent picture?


----------



## Incog_nito

Signalian said:


> 3 different platforms having 90 pieces while mission profile remains almost same. American, Turkish and Chinese, all having different engines and parts. 2 of these can share weapon systems. 2 of these will have MmW radars. All will have different sensors with nearly same functionality. Datalinks of 2 can be be interlinked while Z-10 maybe connected through another interconnecting system giving latency of 1-2 msec. Overhauling time frame could be different. Ground crews will need to specialize in at least two of these while still being able to maintain the 3rd bird. Transitioning from -1F to -1Z could be easier but the other two gunships would be different machines. 90 would mean 6 x Squadrons considering 12 per squadron while others are spare. Current gunship squadrons are 3 so basically doubling the force with better platform and weapon systems.
> 
> The fate of 48 x AH-1F has yet to be ascertained. The "jugaroo" way things work in Pakistan, these AH-1F can still be used in COIN Ops. A C4I team in Mi-17 equipped with MmW radar, 2-3 surveillance drones in air and a handful of AH-1F. The Mi-17 and drones guide the AH-1F to targets which takes them out through strafing or rickets or TOW/BS. There is low threat level of SAM/RPG in COIN war. The missing weapon is a FnF Missile. Integration of BARQ missile should have been considered for AH-1F and future gunship platforms.
> 
> If these 48 x AH-1F are not retired instead divided amongst I,II and V Corps as dedicated assets, this would give the Corps HQs more flexibility and firepower instead of requesting for gunships through Aviation Command or GHQ or Regional Command.
> 
> The need of transport heli will always be there. RVFC is providing mules for transport in mountain regions. A transport helicopter with adequate cargo space or sling load capability is a better option. Mules on tracks and trucks on roads in mountains can be a back up or otherwise size/weight restrictions of cargo. A dedicated Med Evac variant of transport helicopter with 4 x stretchers is needed since Field hospitals and specialized medical departments in CMHs are located at central places only.
> 
> Almost every US Divisional formation has an aviation brigade having 1 attack squadron and 2-3 transport squadrons. This may not be possible in divisional structure of PA but some Corps HQs can be assigned dedicated assets.



So, this can mean that PAA will acquire only Z-10 & ATAK.


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## Tomcats

Reichsmarschall said:


> Any recent picture?


I though the AH-1Z news was debunked by Alan Warnes and other sources?

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## python-000

What is the status of new attack helicopters for PA...!!!

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## ghazi52



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## Dazzler



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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> PAA
> View attachment 710364


Not sure about the origin of statement, but seen it written with Viet war pics. Instead of hueys, a mix of European and Russian are shown.

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## Raja Porus

Mus


Signalian said:


> Not sure about the origin of statement, but seen it written with Viet war pics. Instead of hueys, a mix of European and Russian are shown.


Must be siachen,kargil


----------



## fatman17

python-000 said:


> What is the status of new attack helicopters for PA...!!!


Status quo ante


----------



## fatman17

Issam said:


> I though the AH-1Z news was debunked by Alan Warnes and other sources?


True


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## ghazi52

Fully loaded

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## CHI RULES

What shall be role of the MI35s inducted or going to be inducted whether it shall be limited for Anti narcotics which not looks to be exact role or it shall be used in Baluchistan and KP for transport and close support in hot areas. Comments are requested as while discussing gunships their role has been discussed at minimal level so far.


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## ghazi52

Babar was wounded and later awarded Bar to SJ. his first SJ came in September '65, when as CO of an Aviation Squadron, he captured several leaderless troops of the 6ᵗʰ Sikh Li, near Chhamb. standing with his copter, beside Musa and Bakhtiar Rana - the I Corps Commander.

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## fatman17

CHI RULES said:


> What shall be role of the MI35s inducted or going to be inducted whether it shall be limited for Anti narcotics which not looks to be exact role or it shall be used in Baluchistan and KP for transport and close support in hot areas. Comments are requested as while discussing gunships their role has been discussed at minimal level so far.


With only 4 in service, mostly being used to train crews at this time, when the full complement of 20 examples is inducted, they will certainly have a multi role function.

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## Cookie Monster

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The original plan was 15 AH-1Z and 30 T129, so at least 3 squadrons with 15 helicopters each (I guess the PAA could break the units down further). However, in 2016 TAI hinted the PA was going to acquire a "large number" of T129s through the long-term.


I wish Pak had it's own LCH like program

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## Goritoes

Fawadqasim1 said:


> My father



some people are gifted by Allah as he let them achieve something that makes them live even after their bodies turn to dust, remember that your father is still alive in some form and somewhere for what he did not let his honor and country down over his life, proud should be lesser for word for you to feel for him, you should be extremely proud and honored to have him as your father.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Cookie Monster said:


> I wish Pak had it's own LCH like program


It's not too late. We can join Turkey's T625 and T629.

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not too late. We can join Turkey's T625 and T629.


How would a local heli program serve Pakistan's (mostly military) interests?

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## ghazi52

it ain't over till it's over.

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## ghazi52

During Pakistan Turkey Special Services Group joint drills .

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## ghazi52

Aviation Mess, Rawalpindi

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## Gripen9

ghazi52 said:


> Aviation Mess, Rawalpindi
> 
> 
> View attachment 718241
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 718242
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 718243


Mi26 in Pak colors?


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## hassan1



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## Zephyrus

A really neat shot of an Mi-171 EW variant and Mushak by the extremely talented Hamza Tariq

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## Raja Porus

Zephyrus said:


> A really neat shot of an Mi-171 EW variant and Mushak by the extremely talented Hamza Tariq
> View attachment 719002


What is the structure hanging on its tail?


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## air marshal



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## Zephyrus

Desert Fox 1 said:


> What is the structure hanging on its tail?


Various Antennae for electronic intelligence or warfare

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## airbus101

Zephyrus said:


> A really neat shot of an Mi-171 EW variant and Mushak by the extremely talented Hamza Tariq
> View attachment 719002


How many do we have? And has this done in-house or we had help from outside and if we had help from outside then who helped us?


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## ghazi52

On 3rd of October 1987 two Soviet Mil Mi-24 Gunship helicopters made forced landing, in Washich Torkhow Upper Chitral, due to low fuel and heavy clouds after they had penetrated over 30 miles deep into Pakistani territory. The 6 crewmen were arrested by Chitral Scout Forces and later sent to GHQ Rawalpindi.

But later they were released as a good will gesture. But before their arrest the crew had severely damaged the gunships and they were no longer in flying condition. The area where these gunships landed was almost inaccessible by road and the part of the gunships were brought to Chitral town by Pakistani helicopters in pieces and it took almost a month to finish.

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## GriffinsRule

ghazi52 said:


> On 3rd of October 1987 two Soviet Mil Mi-24 Gunship helicopters made forced landing, in Washich Torkhow Upper Chitral, due to low fuel and heavy clouds after they had penetrated over 30 miles deep into Pakistani territory. The 6 crewmen were arrested by Chitral Scout Forces and later sent to GHQ Rawalpindi.
> 
> But later they were released as a good will gesture. But before their arrest the crew had severely damaged the gunships and they were no longer in flying condition. The area where these gunships landed was almost inaccessible by road and the part of the gunships were brought to Chitral town by Pakistani helicopters in pieces and it took almost a month to finish.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 719702


Wow this image is gold!


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

PAK ARMY MI-35

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## Goritoes

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not too late. We can join Turkey's T625 and T629.
> 
> View attachment 716041
> 
> 
> View attachment 716040



Where does PA is moving/using their Mil-35's? Eastern or Western front?

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Zephyrus

airbus101 said:


> How many do we have? And has this done in-house or we had help from outside and if we had help from outside then who helped us?


I think this was off the shelf solution


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## Raja Porus

Goritoes said:


> Where does PA is moving/using their Mil-35's? Eastern or Western front?


Balochistan

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## Goritoes

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Balochistan



I hope they become the symbol of terror in the hearts of BLA and BRA scums, roast these rats in their caves.

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## Windjammer



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## mudas777

Signalian said:


> How would a local heli program serve Pakistan's (mostly military) interests?



The way JF-17 did wonders for PAF and blessed our country like we almost gain independence all over again. With our own heli program we will break one more string which is inhibiting us from better defence of our country.

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## Cool_Soldier

Still new induction Type time frame is unclear.

Zulu
T 129


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## ghazi52

*Aerospatiale AS-350/550 Ecureuil/AStar/Fennec*

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## TOPGUN

Cool_Soldier said:


> Still new induction Type time frame is unclear.
> 
> Zulu
> T 129



Neither the guessing game is over, it will be Z-10ME in PAA soon.

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## Cool_Soldier

TOPGUN said:


> Neither the guessing game is over, it will be Z-10ME in PAA soon.


 Yes brother, I heard the News.US has blocked delivery of T129 and it is obvious US wont clear Zulu for us. Then the only option left is upgraded Z10 ME.

Let it come then

We might see T129 in future if Turkey develops its own engine or comes up with some alternative solution.

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## python-000




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## ghazi52

Puma

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## FuturePAF

Perhaps this gives more impetus to the team developing the Z-10 to catch up with what the T-129 can do, so Pakistan can sign a contract and commit to the Z-10. Perhaps there is a certain level of diversification Pakistan wants to maintain in its inventory, hence the desire to wait for the T-129 and holding out hope for the AH-1Z.

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## ghazi52

.

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## python-000

PAA must go Z-10ME & after that T-129...

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## ghazi52

Cobra At Kohat.

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Army Aviation Mi-35 Helicopter - Photo by Rao Muhammad Farrukh

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## LightUponLight

ghazi52 said:


> Pakistan Army Aviation Mi-35 Helicopter - Photo by Rao Muhammad Farrukh
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 725095



How many of these did we get? Just a handful, right?

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Helicopter flying over the crevices in Glacier to drop dry food for troops on ground.This is what Pakistan Army is doing for our safety.

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## ghazi52

In today’s edition of “above Islamabad”:-

12:02 PM · Mar 21, 2021·

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Brigadier Raheel Sehgal; a Lama pilot with the "Chumik Saviours" at Siachen. awarded the Sitara-e-Jurat for the daring sling-insertion of troops to seize Point 22158 in April 1989. also carried out missions in September 1987, when Operation Qiadat was underway. 
some helmet eh?

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## Windjammer



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## HAIDER



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## python-000

HAIDER said:


> View attachment 727843
> 
> View attachment 727844


And we were supposed to see Z-10ME or T-129...


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## JK!

After latest defence cuts in UK they’re getting rid of some of the Puma fleet around 20 I think and the entire Hercules fleet.

Could it be considered an option for Pakistan similar to the Sea Kings for the Navy?

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Passing over Shakarpariyan Parade Ground #Islamabad

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## mingle

JK! said:


> After latest defence cuts in UK they’re getting rid of some of the Puma fleet around 20 I think and the entire Hercules fleet.
> 
> Could it be considered an option for Pakistan similar to the Sea Kings for the Navy?


Also 24 EF too Pakistan should look a deal like eygpt or Greece with UK and Italy

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## ghazi52

.

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## ghazi52

‘Flying Tank’ Mi-35M Gunships over Rawalpindi ...

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> ‘Flying Tank’ Mi-35M Gunships over Rawalpindi ...
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 728503



there were rumor/news of follow on order after the initial batch of 5 ,any update ?

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## Ahmet Pasha

You lovely folks will love this

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## Ali_Baba

JK! said:


> After latest defence cuts in UK they’re getting rid of some of the Puma fleet around 20 I think and the entire Hercules fleet.
> 
> Could it be considered an option for Pakistan similar to the Sea Kings for the Navy?



Buying the PUMA's would make alot of sense for Pakistan for sure, they are of the same generation to what Pakistan operate now and can be easily inducted.

The rest, makes no sense.


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## mingle

Ali_Baba said:


> Buying the PUMA's would make alot of sense for Pakistan for sure, they are of the same generation to what Pakistan operate now and can be easily inducted.
> 
> The rest, makes no sense.


It's more than puma 24 in total along 224 challenger tanks C130j 24 EF old Chinooks 770 warrior vehicles , Frigates, destroyers meeting with UK military Gen at CJCS Headquarters all forces top brass was there means good chance Pakistan will get chunk for all 3 forces.

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## Dazzler

khanasifm said:


> there were rumor/news of follow on order after the initial batch of 5 ,any update ?



Not rumors, it's confirmed. More are coming.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Pakistan army Mil-Mi 17 transport helicopter, with extra external fuel tanks and extra armor plating for protecting pilots against small arms fire.

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> Pakistan army Mil-Mi 17 transport helicopter, with extra external fuel tanks and extra armor plating for protecting pilots against small arms fire.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 729143


It also has engine intake filter to operate in deserts 🏜


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## Inception-06

khanasifm said:


> It also has engine intake filter to operate in deserts 🏜


The placement and form of the armor plates is a joke.

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## AMG_12

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 725826


An observation; the landing gear housing on this particular Puma is bigger compared to our fleet of older Pumas. While I personally haven't seen this example before, can anyone shed more light on our fleet of Puma helicopters? (not to confuse this one with our modern Puma fleet that have both variations of landing gear housing) @HRK @Inception-06

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## HRK

AMG_12 said:


> An observation; the landing gear housing on this particular Puma is bigger compared to our fleet of older Pumas. While I personally haven't seen this example before, can anyone shed more light on our fleet of Puma helicopters? (not to confuse this one with our modern Puma fleet that have both variations of landing gear housing) @HRK @Inception-06
> View attachment 729306


I must admit I have no idea about this thing ...

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## Inception-06

AMG_12 said:


> An observation; the landing gear housing on this particular Puma is bigger compared to our fleet of older Pumas. While I personally haven't seen this example before, can anyone shed more light on our fleet of Puma helicopters? (not to confuse this one with our modern Puma fleet that have both variations of landing gear housing) @HRK @Inception-06
> View attachment 729306


I am also not an expert in this field.

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## Raja Porus

AMG_12 said:


> An observation; the landing gear housing on this particular Puma is bigger compared to our fleet of older Pumas. While I personally haven't seen this example before, can anyone shed more light on our fleet of Puma helicopters? (not to confuse this one with our modern Puma fleet that have both variations of landing gear housing) @HRK @Inception-06
> View attachment 729306





HRK said:


> I must admit I have no idea about this thing ...





Inception-06 said:


> I am also not an expert in this field.


@GriffinsRule sir, will he the best man to ask.

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## iLION12345_1

Inception-06 said:


> The placement and form of the armor plates is a joke.


Not at all, it’s completely adequate for the usage and the platform. Its more than enough to stop AK rounds and even HMG rounds at a distance when combined with the Helicopter frame. The glass above it can take 7.62 hits as well. It could make a helluva difference when under fire from small arms, which is all the Taliban have. Most of the helicopter losses in the Middle East were due to Small arms, there’s even a video of an Apache pilot getting hit by a 7.62 round in flight.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> It's more than puma 24 in total along 224 challenger tanks C130j 24 EF old Chinooks 770 warrior vehicles , Frigates, destroyers meeting with UK military Gen at CJCS Headquarters all forces top brass was there means good chance Pakistan will get chunk for all 3 forces.


We don't have the negotiating smarts or hard cash to secure any of that (except for maybe the Pumas).

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We don't have the negotiating smarts or hard cash to secure any of that (except for maybe the Pumas).


Agree but can have loan from UK because they don't do line of credit

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## GriffinsRule

Desert Fox 1 said:


> @GriffinsRule sir, will he the best man to ask.


The housing or 'sponson' as it is called was an optional feature for Pumas and incorporates additional fuel tanks for slightly longer range. Some variants also incorporate floatation devices as well if operating over bodies of water.

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## Ahmet Pasha

AMG_12 said:


> An observation; the landing gear housing on this particular Puma is bigger compared to our fleet of older Pumas. While I personally haven't seen this example before, can anyone shed more light on our fleet of Puma helicopters? (not to confuse this one with our modern Puma fleet that have both variations of landing gear housing) @HRK @Inception-06
> View attachment 729306


Looks normal maybe more zoomed in. Or you haven't seen em this close before?


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## GriffinsRule

For comparison

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## Windjammer

One of the advantages of Cobra Gunship is its slender size.

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## python-000

Extremelly need to get 1 or 2 squdren of Z10ME from China on ungent baese because t-129 takes long time to join PAA...

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## ghazi52

MI-17 Helicopter of Pakistan Army in Tirah valley.

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## ghazi52

Mil Mi-171 | Pakistan Army Aviation

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## syed_yusuf

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 730791


New one


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Mi-35.

© A. Mateen

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## nomi007

History of Pakistan Army Aviation in 1 picture

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## ghazi52

Puma

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## ghazi52

Cobra






.

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## hassan1

nomi007 said:


> History of Pakistan Army Aviation in 1 picture
> View attachment 731156


MISSING _Beechcraft L_-23 Seminole /U8F

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## ghazi52

A Pakistan Army Aviation Corps SA-330 Puma about to take off...

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## GriffinsRule

So it looks like Italy's Leonardo has been quietly developing the successor to the AW129, designated AW249, as the original helos are to be phased out by 2025. 
Looks like an uparmed version of the ATAK but will be powered by twin GE700/AVIO CT7-8E6 engines, similar to ones that power the AH-1Zs (2,500 shp each). Max TOW in the 7,500 - 8,000kg range. 
With the close cooperation with the Italians already, it could be another option in the hat to make up the heavy component that was once going to be AH-1Z, or even T129s replacement if that never pans out.









AW249







www.leonardocompany.com

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> So it looks like Italy's Leonardo has been quietly developing the successor to the AW129, designated AW249, as the original helos are to be phased out by 2025.
> Looks like an uparmed version of the ATAK but will be powered by twin GE700/AVIO CT7-8E6 engines, similar to ones that power the AH-1Zs (2,500 shp each). Max TOW in the 7,500 - 8,000kg range.
> With the close cooperation with the Italians already, it could be another option in the hat to make up the heavy component that was once going to be AH-1Z, or even T129s replacement if that never pans out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AW249
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.leonardocompany.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 731930


Looking great

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## python-000

Pakistan can Get Z-10ME with Russian or Ukrainian engines...


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## MIRauf

python-000 said:


> Pakistan can Get Z-10ME with Russian or Ukrainian engines...


Chinese will have to allow the integration, then it will take time for integration, test and evaluation. At the end of the day who will foot the bill for it ( testing, integration ) ?


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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

Paa during fATa ops

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## ghazi52

Bell 412 In Pakistan Army Aviation.

© Zohaib Malik

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## GriffinsRule



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## Scorpiooo

GriffinsRule said:


> View attachment 733572


Any idea how actual more numbers are on order


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## Yasser76

It maybe my age, but I get deeply uncomfortable watching these Hinds in Pakistan, and knowing they are flying around Tribal areas.

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## Raja Porus

Yasser76 said:


> It maybe my age, but I get deeply uncomfortable watching these Hinds in Pakistan, and knowing they are flying around Tribal areas.


they wont be getting stingers,hopefully.

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## ghazi52

The Pakistan Army Aviation Corps Mi-35M.

Mi-35M is a multi-role combat helicopter manufactured by Rostvertol, a subsidiary of Russian Helicopters. It is an export variant of Mi-24 Hind attack helicopter.

© Rana Suhaib Photography

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 734306
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Pakistan Army Aviation Corps Mi-35M.
> 
> Mi-35M is a multi-role combat helicopter manufactured by Rostvertol, a subsidiary of Russian Helicopters. It is an export variant of Mi-24 Hind attack helicopter.
> 
> © Rana Suhaib Photography



Has anyone seen a pic of paa mi-35 with missiles mostly shows up with rockets ??


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## python-000

What is the status of PAA new attack helicopter Z-10ME, T-129 Atak, MI-35, MI-28 or KA-52...


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## blinder

Not Mi-35, T-129 or Z-10ME will be the next delivered helicopter, but more Airbus H125s (AS350B3e).
Currently their Marseille factory is working on them and test flights of the have been taking place.
Credit photographer is on the pic.

#2827






#2828

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## Scorpiooo

python-000 said:


> What is the status of PAA new attack helicopter Z-10ME, T-129 Atak, MI-35, MI-28 or KA-52...


MI-28 or KA-52 when these 2 came in the story of PAA ?


blinder said:


> Not Mi-35, T-129 or Z-10ME will be the next delivered helicopter, but more Airbus H125s (AS350B3e).
> Currently their Marseille factory is working on them and test flights of the have been taking place.
> Credit photographer is on the pic.
> 
> #2827
> View attachment 734916
> 
> 
> #2828
> View attachment 734917


How many are on order any information? 
These utility variant or light attack variants?


blinder said:


> Not Mi-35, T-129 or Z-10ME will be the next delivered helicopter, but more Airbus H125s (AS350B3e).
> Currently their Marseille factory is working on them and test flights of the have been taking place.
> Credit photographer is on the pic.
> 
> #2827
> View attachment 734916
> 
> 
> #2828
> View attachment 734917


These are H125 or H125M ?


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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> MI-28 or KA-52 when these 2 came in the story of PAA ?
> 
> How many are on order any information?
> These utility variant or light attack variants?
> 
> These are H125 or H125M ?


Utility variant on order, number unknown. The PAA already has enough of the armed scout variant. 
Mi28 and KA52 are not in Pakistani inventory, though honestly Pakistan could look into purchasing them over Z10ME since T129B is not being delivered, the biggest issue would be the logistics of it, not the price or procurement, Russia is willing to sell them.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> Utility variant on order, number unknown. The PAA already has enough of the armed scout variant.
> Mi28 and KA52 are not in Pakistani inventory, though honestly Pakistan could look into purchasing them over Z10ME since T129B is not being delivered, the biggest issue would be the logistics of it, not the price or procurement, Russia is willing to sell them.


Thanks for sharing as my information currently Pakistan have 32 light attack variant, few back seens picture of IL78 taking delivery of fennec color scheme was camouflage but these are drak green, so both are different variants or these will recolored before delivery 

Regading Mi 28 Ka 52 are very stronge attack helis, but PAA cant afford them on cash term or short loans .. IMO PAA only consider new MI 35 additional number in future or can go for few Mi 171 utility helos from Russian 

PAA might already on track to have few numbers of Z10ME/MP as mid solutions, numbers we cant predict ... but depends how much they want wait for T129 in actual bcuz Americans will not give engine so alternative engine will take time (what ever engine selected) .. but Z10x option will give time to wait for T129 few more years and then PAA can get them along follow-up order of atak 2

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## Shabi1

JK! said:


> After latest defence cuts in UK they’re getting rid of some of the Puma fleet around 20 I think and the entire Hercules fleet.
> 
> Could it be considered an option for Pakistan similar to the Sea Kings for the Navy?


Even if not airworthy, the spares value of those PUMAs and C-130s would make sense.
In rest of the militaries they retire platforms because with age they become too expensive to maintain, reason being the hefty man hour charges that are charged by contractors. In Pakistan's case Pak military employ's those people on its payroll that are supposed to put in those man hours so in our case maintaining old platforms is not as expensive.

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## blinder

Scorpiooo said:


> These are H125 or H125M ?


The tail just says H125.


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## python-000

iLION12345_1 said:


> Utility variant on order, number unknown. The PAA already has enough of the armed scout variant.
> Mi28 and KA52 are not in Pakistani inventory, though honestly Pakistan could look into purchasing them over Z10ME since T129B is not being delivered, the biggest issue would be the logistics of it, not the price or procurement, Russia is willing to sell them.


Now we have good relations with Russia so may be we can get some of them...


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## Scorpiooo

Shabi1 said:


> Even if not airworthy, the spares value of those PUMAs and C-130s would make sense.
> In rest of the militaries they retire platforms because with age they become too expensive to maintain, reason being the hefty man hour charges that are charged by contractors. In Pakistan's case Pak military employ's those people on its payroll that are supposed to put in those man hours so in our case maintaining old platforms is not as expensive.


But reality is that don't have fund and intension to get some good new air lift and utilities plateform.. although they are very important in peace and wa time...
Specially in war time they become core for logistics and troop movement... we have very limited resources when we comapre with indian aif force and army operations


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## python-000

Scorpiooo said:


> Thanks for sharing as my information currently Pakistan have 32 light attack variant, few back seens picture of IL78 taking delivery of fennec color scheme was camouflage but these are drak green, so both are different variants or these will recolored before delivery
> 
> Regading Mi 28 Ka 52 are very stronge attack helis, but PAA cant afford them on cash term or short loans .. IMO PAA only consider new MI 35 additional number in future or can go for few Mi 171 utility helos from Russian
> 
> PAA might already on track to have few numbers of Z10ME/MP as mid solutions, numbers we cant predict ... but depends how much they want wait for T129 in actual bcuz Americans will not give engine so alternative engine will take time (what ever engine selected) .. but Z10x option will give time to wait for T129 few more years and then PAA can get them along follow-up order of atak 2


Yes China already transform or make changes according to our PA requirements in Z-10ME so lits hope for Best...

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## Scorpiooo

python-000 said:


> Yes China already transform or make changes according to our PA requirements in Z-10ME so lits hope for Best...


Yes this variant was output of 1 year we tested 3 Z10 ( which were returned) .. main issue was less powerful engine and issue to work in higher altitude and in intense heat .. hopefully of these other issues resolved in can decent option .. 
Chinese can further modify it Z10P/MP like in past like F7PG , VT4 (engine change) , F6 etc

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## blinder

More deliveries took place early April when two Cessna 208B EX Caravans crossed the Atlantic flying Reykjavik-Zurich on 1 April, onwards to Heraklion, Greece 4 April, Fujairah 6 April and to Islamabad 8 April.
With some phantasy we may conclude that these will actually be PAA serial 710 and 711?

N710EX and N711EX departing Zurich 4 april, credit photographer on the pic:

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## Imran Khan

blinder said:


> More deliveries took place early April when two Cessna 208B EX Caravans crossed the Atlantic flying Reykjavik-Zurich on 1 April, onwards to Heraklion, Greece 4 April, Fujairah 6 April and to Islamabad 8 April.
> With some phantasy we may conclude that these will actually be PAA serial 710 and 711?
> 
> N710EX and N711EX departing Zurich 4 april, credit photographer on the pic:
> View attachment 734963
> View attachment 734964


they have big transport fleet why they order two more


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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> Thanks for sharing as my information currently Pakistan have 32 light attack variant, few back seens picture of IL78 taking delivery of fennec color scheme was camouflage but these are drak green, so both are different variants or these will recolored before delivery
> 
> Regading Mi 28 Ka 52 are very stronge attack helis, but PAA cant afford them on cash term or short loans .. IMO PAA only consider new MI 35 additional number in future or can go for few Mi 171 utility helos from Russian
> 
> PAA might already on track to have few numbers of Z10ME/MP as mid solutions, numbers we cant predict ... but depends how much they want wait for T129 in actual bcuz Americans will not give engine so alternative engine will take time (what ever engine selected) .. but Z10x option will give time to wait for T129 few more years and then PAA can get them along follow-up order of atak 2


The Russian helicopters are no more expensive than the AH-1Z that Pakistan initially set out to buy, there are very minor differences in price. AH-1Z is technologically the most advanced attack helicopter in service anywhere at the moment, though it has a smaller payload than the Apache, when it comes to electronics and tech it’s at least half a generation ahead. And Pakistan had no trouble affording that.

Price is not the real issue with Russian helicopters, if Pakistan wants that option is always open. It’s just that Z10ME might prove to be better logistically. Russians already sold us Mi35M and almost sold us Pantsir.

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## mingle

Imran Khan said:


> they have big transport fleet why they order two more


It's new delivery? Means PAA happy with these planes happy equipment is flowing


iLION12345_1 said:


> The Russian helicopters are no more expensive than the AH-1Z that Pakistan initially set out to buy, there are very minor differences in price. AH-1Z is technologically the most advanced attack helicopter in service anywhere at the moment, though it has a smaller payload than the Apache, when it comes to electronics and tech it’s at least half a generation ahead. And Pakistan had no trouble affording that.
> 
> Price is not the real issue with Russian helicopters, if Pakistan wants that option is always open. It’s just that Z10ME might prove to be better logistically. Russians already sold us Mi35M and almost sold us Pantsir.


PAA should go for standard attack Heli from Russia they are as good as American Helis are also rugged suited our environment and needs stop looking towards AH1Z and Go for Russian have same engine what our Mi17 have easy to maintain and reliable

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## iLION12345_1

mingle said:


> It's new delivery? Means PAA happy with these planes happy equipment is flowing
> 
> PAA should go for standard attack Heli from Russia they are as good as American Helis are also rugged suited our environment and needs stop looking towards AH1Z and Go for Russian have same engine what our Mi17 have easy to maintain and reliable


The difference is in weaponry. While In other factors Russian and American helicopters might be comparable, when it comes to weaponry USA is clearly ahead, not to mention Pakistan is used to cobras, their logistics and weapon systems due to decades of use. AH1Z was and still is the ideal choice for attack helicopters for Pakistan. There’s simply nothing like it. And it’s not any less rugged or reliable when compared to Russian helos. AH-1Z would have a lot more commonality with Pakistani weapons, training, logistics and so on than just an engine with the Russian helos. However since Pakistani can’t get AH-1Z or T129B, all of these benefits are useless. It will likely be Z10ME with a small chance for Russian Mi28. KA-52 is very unlikely, again, price is not the issue, AH-1Z has a similar price. KA-52 simply serves a different role than what PAA needs, a role that the Mi28 would fit better.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> The Russian helicopters are no more expensive than the AH-1Z that Pakistan initially set out to buy, there are very minor differences in price. AH-1Z is technologically the most advanced attack helicopter in service anywhere at the moment, though it has a smaller payload than the Apache, when it comes to electronics and tech it’s at least half a generation ahead. And Pakistan had no trouble affording that.
> 
> Price is not the real issue with Russian helicopters, if Pakistan wants that option is always open. It’s just that Z10ME might prove to be better logistically. Russians already sold us Mi35M and almost sold us Pantsir.


AH-1Z actually hold due payment issue American refuse pay from FMS or support funds and ask to pay full for those 12 helis, which we cant afford or willing to pay .. they got freezed.

Remaining about russian are will give helis , but look at order of Mi 35 , 5 intially now 4 or 5 just follow up order .. is just lack of funds that way PAA going in small numbers of order s


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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> AH-1Z actually hold due payment issue American refuse pay from FMS or support funds and ask to pay full for those 12 helis, which we cant afford or willing to pay .. they got freezed.
> 
> Remaining about russian are will give helis , but look at order of Mi 35 , 5 intially now 4 or 5 just follow up order .. is just lack of funds that way PAA going in small numbers of order s



Again, not a lack of funds. There is no such issue. PAA literally has 1.5 Billion USD waiting for those T129s.

AH1Z order was blocked more due to political issues, even if FMS was granted they would not be delivered since all major arms sales to Pakistan were blocked by Trump.

Mi-35 has a very particular use, it does not make much sense to induct them in large numbers anyways, more are on their way regardless, they will be here in due time. They are late because the follow up order was simply placed late. 5 are already here, the follow up order will be 5 or more. That’s all that are needed.

If money was the real issue those T129s would never be ordered, because Pakistan planned to pay for them in full in a 1.5 Billion USD deal, not to mention VT-4 acquisition, FD-2000 and Pantsir acquisition, so in and so forth. Money doesn’t seem to be the issue.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> Mi-35 has a very particular use,


Can you explain this as I've heard it quite a few times.

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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Can you explain this as I've heard it quite a few times.


Mi35 is possibly the only helicopter that can really be defined as an “assault helicopter”. Helicopters of that size class are generally designed for only one of two things, Transport or attack.
Theres helicopters on both extremes, like the AH-1 and the UH-1, The Mi28 and the Mi17, the Augusta Westland and the Puma. Basically every country has an attack helicopter and a transport helicopter.

Mi35 is the perfect balance between those two roles, it’s armed and armored (its fuselage is armored to take 12.7mm rounds and it’s cockpit and titanium rotor mounts can withstand upto 20mm cannon rounds) like an attack helicopter and can transport troops like a transport helicopter. It has armor and armament like attack helicopters so it Take can take and give a beating but at the same time it is very fast. Despite its size and unassuming shape it holds several speed records because it is extremely agile and has powerful engines (from the much bigger Mi17). And at the same time it can carry small teams of troops, usually SF (it has a capacity of 8 troops, or stretchers, even cargo).
So it’s not the best attack helicopter, as it has a lower payload than dedicated ones, and it’s not the best transport helicopter, as it can’t transport as many soldiers as dedicated ones, but it’s the perfect balance between them. It can do both roles when needed but the specific role I mentioned for it is SF insertion and extraction while also providing air cover, MEDEVAC from Hot areas, clearing its own landing zones etc, for these tasks you’d conventionally need both types of helos, this can do it alone.

Some other helicopters have tried to replicate this, like the American Blackhawk and the IAR330 (armed version of the Puma), but both of those being purpose built for transport are better at that role and only have armaments as secondary roles or lose a lot of other capabilities when armed.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> Again, not a lack of funds. There is no such issue. PAA literally has 1.5 Billion USD waiting for those T129s.
> 
> AH1Z order was blocked more due to political issues, even if FMS was granted they would not be delivered since all major arms sales to Pakistan were blocked by Trump.
> 
> Mi-35 has a very particular use, it does not make much sense to induct them in large numbers anyways, more are on their way regardless, they will be here in due time. They are late because the follow up order was simply placed late. 5 are already here, the follow up order will be 5 or more. That’s all that are needed.
> 
> If money was the real issue those T129s would never be ordered, because Pakistan planned to pay for them in full in a 1.5 Billion USD deal, not to mention VT-4 acquisition, FD-2000 and Pantsir acquisition, so in and so forth. Money doesn’t seem to be the issue.


As per info i have, those 1.5 Billion dollors were arranged from loan taken even from turkish bank for 30 T129s and terms of this loan was very good ... No hard cash from Pakistan was involved in the deal

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## mingle

iLION12345_1 said:


> Again, not a lack of funds. There is no such issue. PAA literally has 1.5 Billion USD waiting for those T129s.
> 
> AH1Z order was blocked more due to political issues, even if FMS was granted they would not be delivered since all major arms sales to Pakistan were blocked by Trump.
> 
> Mi-35 has a very particular use, it does not make much sense to induct them in large numbers anyways, more are on their way regardless, they will be here in due time. They are late because the follow up order was simply placed late. 5 are already here, the follow up order will be 5 or more. That’s all that are needed.
> 
> If money was the real issue those T129s would never be ordered, because Pakistan planned to pay for them in full in a 1.5 Billion USD deal, not to mention VT-4 acquisition, FD-2000 and Pantsir acquisition, so in and so forth. Money doesn’t seem to be the issue.


1.5 billion $$ is Turkish line of credit from Turkey it's theior money not PAA

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## mingle

Scorpiooo said:


> As per info i have, those 1.5 Billion dollors were arranged from loan taken even from turkish bank for 30 T129s and terms of this loan was very good ... No hard cash from Pakistan was involved in the deal


Pakistan should use this money for something else like wheeled armoured cars or UCAV or more Miljem Corvettes money is available can use it for something else and meantime wait for ATAK 2 to grow

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## Scorpiooo

mingle said:


> Pakistan should use this money for something else like wheeled armoured cars or UCAV or more Miljem Corvettes money is available can use it for something else and meantime wait for ATAK 2 to grow


Valid points, best item available and preforming well are turkish drones.. they will add large edge in PAA and PAF .. if we considered good numbers of turkish drones 

These drone can takeup role attack helos is some situations

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## mingle

Scorpiooo said:


> Valid points, best item available and preforming well are turkish drones.. they will add large edge in PAA and PAF .. if we considered good numbers of turkish drones
> 
> These drone can takeup role attack helos is some situations


Agree along turkish armoured vehicles for western borders with 1.5 billions we can have huge numbers of trucks to patrol for attack Helis I still look Russian option MI35 and Mi28 we also have light attack fennec Helis for very high attitudes attack plus Mi28 MI35 and Mi17 has same engine easy to repair and maintain

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

blinder said:


> Not Mi-35, T-129 or Z-10ME will be the next delivered helicopter, but more Airbus H125s (AS350B3e).
> Currently their Marseille factory is working on them and test flights of the have been taking place.
> Credit photographer is on the pic.
> 
> #2827
> View attachment 734916
> 
> 
> #2828
> View attachment 734917


Sir any idea how many of these we have ?? Plus armed Fennecs i.e all variants ??? before these or after these ???


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## Ahmet Pasha

iLION12345_1 said:


> Mi35 is possibly the only helicopter that can really be defined as an “assault helicopter”. Helicopters of that size class are generally designed for only one of two things, Transport or attack.
> Theres helicopters on both extremes, like the AH-1 and the UH-1, The Mi28 and the Mi17, the Augusta Westland and the Puma. Basically every country has an attack helicopter and a transport helicopter.
> 
> Mi35 is the perfect balance between those two roles, it’s armed and armored (its fuselage is armored to take 12.7mm rounds and it’s cockpit and titanium rotor mounts can withstand upto 20mm cannon rounds) like an attack helicopter and can transport troops like a transport helicopter. It has armor and armament like attack helicopters so it Take can take and give a beating but at the same time it is very fast. Despite its size and unassuming shape it holds several speed records because it is extremely agile and has powerful engines (from the much bigger Mi17). And at the same time it can carry small teams of troops, usually SF (it has a capacity of 8 troops, or stretchers, even cargo).
> So it’s not the best attack helicopter, as it has a lower payload than dedicated ones, and it’s not the best transport helicopter, as it can’t transport as many soldiers as dedicated ones, but it’s the perfect balance between them. It can do both roles when needed but the specific role I mentioned for it is SF insertion and extraction while also providing air cover, MEDEVAC from Hot areas, clearing its own landing zones etc, for these tasks you’d conventionally need both types of helos, this can do it alone.
> 
> Some other helicopters have tried to replicate this, like the American Blackhawk and the IAR330 (armed version of the Puma), but both of those being purpose built for transport are better at that role and only have armaments as secondary roles or lose a lot of other capabilities when armed.


Mi35 cabin is very very tight it is very tough to squeeze in 8 soldiers as claimed in the specs.


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## Scorpiooo

mingle said:


> Agree along turkish armoured vehicles for western borders with 1.5 billions we can have huge numbers of trucks to patrol for attack Helis I still look Russian option MI35 and Mi28 we also have light attack fennec Helis for very high attitudes attack plus Mi28 MI35 and Mi17 has same engine easy to repair and maintain


MI 28 is best option and proven helos as per there performance ... question agian on which financial term we can get them


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## GriffinsRule

iLION12345_1 said:


> Again, not a lack of funds. There is no such issue. PAA literally has 1.5 Billion USD waiting for those T129s.
> 
> AH1Z order was blocked more due to political issues, even if FMS was granted they would not be delivered since all major arms sales to Pakistan were blocked by Trump.
> 
> Mi-35 has a very particular use, it does not make much sense to induct them in large numbers anyways, more are on their way regardless, they will be here in due time. They are late because the follow up order was simply placed late. 5 are already here, the follow up order will be 5 or more. That’s all that are needed.
> 
> If money was the real issue those T129s would never be ordered, because Pakistan planned to pay for them in full in a 1.5 Billion USD deal, not to mention VT-4 acquisition, FD-2000 and Pantsir acquisition, so in and so forth. Money doesn’t seem to be the issue.


No it does not. The source of T129s was going to be Turkey. Pakistan has no such funds sitting around. We would have paid back the loan in installments.

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## spectregunship

Imran Khan said:


> they have big transport fleet why they order two more



Unfortunately, this is the priority of defence acquisition these days actually... I would buy 3 x MI17s with this money instead...

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## Scorpiooo

Imran Khan said:


> they have big transport fleet why they order two more


Must be additional for ViP transportation not for troops

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## Ahmet Pasha

Cessna C208 Grand Caravans are excellent for making small logistical runs to small airstrips and other cargo ops. It is the main workhorse used by Fedex feeder division in North America. And also by Island hopping airlines like Hawaiian and small Alaskan carriers.

So maybe that is why PAA interested in them.


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## Shabi1

Scorpiooo said:


> But reality is that don't have fund and intension to get some good new air lift and utilities plateform.. although they are very important in peace and wa time...
> Specially in war time they become core for logistics and troop movement... we have very limited resources when we comapre with indian aif force and army operations


PAF has a timeline for C-130 replacement which has not yet come, not a matter of funds but priorities right now. The oldest ones were quietly replaced, this platform is working fine right now but their time is yet to come.
My own opinion is PAF will strongly consider the C-390 eventually, so its a interesting aircraft to follow. Right now the Midas multirole tankers are PAFs backbone for transport and they are getting upgrades.








Embraer C-390 Millennium - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Shabi1 said:


> PAF has a timeline for C-130 replacement which has not yet come, not a matter of funds but priorities right now. The oldest ones were quietly replaced, this platform is working fine right now but their time is yet to come.
> My own opinion is PAF will strongly consider the C-390 eventually, so its a interesting aircraft to follow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Embraer C-390 Millennium - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


I think so too. The other constraint on procurement is FATF. You need trade banks to guarantee sales and purchases between governments. I believe many of said banks don't want to deal with Pakistan currently due to FATF, which cuts our supply pool.

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## GriffinsRule

C-390 and the Chinese Y-20 (once re-engined) are the perfect replacement for C-130s and IL-78s. But these are expensive aircraft and PAF will have to invest in overhaul and maintenance infrastructure as well to sustain the fleet for decades to come. With Embraer, there should definitely be an offset deal with Kamra manufacturing parts of the airframe. There would also be a need for engine overhaul.

I would say once the PN retires it's Orions and inducts the new MPA, it would be a good time for PAF as well. But for this to happen by 2030 let's say, they need to start moving in that direction now. These deals take a long time to materialize and are expensive.

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## Ahmet Pasha

GriffinsRule said:


> C-390 and the Chinese Y-20 (once re-engined) are the perfect replacement for C-130s and IL-78s. But these are expensive aircraft and PAF will have to invest in overhaul and maintenance infrastructure as well to sustain the fleet for decades to come. With Embraer, there should definitely be an offset deal with Kamra manufacturing parts of the airframe. There would also be a need for engine overhaul.
> 
> I would say once the PN retires it's Orions and inducts the new MPA, it would be a good time for PAF as well. But for this to happen by 2030 let's say, they need to start moving in that direction now. These deals take a long time to materialize and are expensive.


Here's a novel idea instead of waiting for man o salwa to come down. Sign a JV with Turkey and Ukraine who are about to work on aircraft designs as the likes of A400m and KC390. Split cost and become a part supplier. 

Doubt the uncles will listen tho.


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## Scorpiooo

Shabi1 said:


> PAF has a timeline for C-130 replacement which has not yet come, not a matter of funds but priorities right now. The oldest ones were quietly replaced, this platform is working fine right now but their time is yet to come.
> My own opinion is PAF will strongly consider the C-390 eventually, so its a interesting aircraft to follow. Right now the Midas multirole tankers are PAFs backbone for transport and they are getting upgrades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Embraer C-390 Millennium - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


IMO , PAF will keep C130 jets somehow, may some used one from 3rd or boneyard. Just depend till when existing can serve.

PAf much satisfied and emotionally attached with C130.

C390 can be added as alternative but in limited numbers but remember C130 is 4 engine and C390 is 2 engine 

Other option for replacement of IL78 and additiontion of tanker will Y20 ... will depend when it will be offered for export after completion of domestic need and when its tanker version came to production


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> C-390 and the Chinese Y-20 (once re-engined) are the perfect replacement for C-130s and IL-78s. But these are expensive aircraft and PAF will have to invest in overhaul and maintenance infrastructure as well to sustain the fleet for decades to come. With Embraer, there should definitely be an offset deal with Kamra manufacturing parts of the airframe. There would also be a need for engine overhaul.
> 
> I would say once the PN retires it's Orions and inducts the new MPA, it would be a good time for PAF as well. But for this to happen by 2030 let's say, they need to start moving in that direction now. These deals take a long time to materialize and are expensive.


IMO we need a mix of turboprop and jet-based aircraft. 

The turboprops could support our hot-and-high operations, while the jets take on the bulk of cross-country and overseas logistics work. The C390 is a good jet because it uses the same powerplants as the A320, so it gives us both airliner efficiency and a huge support base to draw on anywhere it lands. 

The turboprop part would be difficult to figure out. I don't know if the US would approve of us buying C-130Js or LM-100Js. We could start saving our existing C-130's by offloading the non-hot-and-high ops to something like the C390.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Scorpiooo said:


> C130 is 4 engine and C390 is 2 engine


What a logic Saar G!!


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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO we need a mix of turboprop and jet-based aircraft.
> 
> The turboprops could support our hot-and-high operations, while the jets take on the bulk of cross-country and overseas logistics work. The C390 is a good jet because it uses the same powerplants as the A320, so it gives us both airliner efficiency and a huge support base to draw on anywhere it lands.
> 
> The turboprop part would be difficult to figure out. I don't know if the US would approve of us buying C-130Js or LM-100Js. We could start saving our existing C-130's by offloading the non-hot-and-high ops to something like the C390.


There's only so much airframe life you can save on 60yr old aircrafts without impacting operations. If US sells J series, I'm all for it. Esp if we can get the ones UK is retiring. It is still a terrific aircraft. However, if we can not get them, then the Embraer option should be taken up. I am not in favor of a split fleet of the same weight class. We can also opt to buy more CN-295s to compliment what the four CN-235s we have. They are turboprops and with very decent PW engines for hot and high performance.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> There's only so much airframe life you can save on 60yr old aircrafts without impacting operations. If US sells J series, I'm all for it. Esp if we can get the ones UK is retiring. It is still a terrific aircraft. However, if we can not get them, then the Embraer option should be taken up. I am not in favor of a split fleet of the same weight class. We can also opt to buy more CN-295s to compliment what the four CN-235s we have. They are turboprops and with very decent PW engines for hot and high performance.


I was wondering if we could re-engine the Ukrainian An-70s with PW150s (via Canada), but saw that (it being the bigger plane) required way more powerful powerplants.

The crazier option is trying to design an original turboprop aircraft similar to the Herc. The engines are there (e.g., PW150), and to an extent, we can draw on Ukraine's experience -- e.g., a miniaturized An-70? Sure the economies-of-scale isn't there at all if we're the only user, but OTOH, what if we perpetually build them at a rate of 1-2 a year?

Basically, we replace our old domestically built transports with new ones every 25-30 years (just like the US has done with the Herc-line)? Imagine a design that's a bit larger than the An-178 (but smaller than the An-77), and uses 4 PW150s instead of the 2 turbofans?

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was wondering if we could re-engine the Ukrainian An-70s with PW150s (via Canada), but saw that (it being the bigger plane) required way more powerful powerplants. The crazier option is trying to design an original turboprop aircraft similar to the Herc. The engines are there (e.g., PW150), and to an extent, we can draw on Ukraine's experience -- e.g., a miniaturized An-70?


There's at least 3 companies developing a similar KC390 like design.
Japanese Mitsubishi (I'm not well aware on it)
Brazilian Embraer
Ukrainian Antonov and now TAI is also entering the fray with the Ukrainians.

PakMil: Like the girl that has tons of stuff in the wardrobe but still says I have nothing to wear.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was wondering if we could re-engine the Ukrainian An-70s with PW150s (via Canada), but saw that (it being the bigger plane) required way more powerful powerplants.
> 
> The crazier option is trying to design an original turboprop aircraft similar to the Herc. The engines are there (e.g., PW150), and to an extent, we can draw on Ukraine's experience -- e.g., a miniaturized An-70? Sure the economies-of-scale isn't there at all if we're the only user, but OTOH, what if we perpetually build them at a rate of 3-4 a year?
> 
> Basically, we replace our old domestically built transports with new ones every 25-30 years (just like the US has done with the Herc-line)? Imagine a design that's a bit larger than the An-178 (but smaller than the An-77), and uses 4 PW150s instead of the 2 turbofans?
> 
> View attachment 735484


Not sure if that is sustainable. US was able to do it with the Allison engine since it has a basis of design from the 1950s and came to power THE transport aircraft of the world. Economies of scale still matter unless you want to pay Japanese like prices for your manufactured goods. Same funds better spent at figuring out drone engines instead first where failure isn't cartestrophic.

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## Ahmet Pasha

You know at the time when I brought up KC390 the reaction of PDFers was same old it's not mature, we have indestructible C130s, mighty PAF doesn't need it. Now it looks like after the pandemic roller coaster is gone. A lot of nations may be interested in swooping up this jet and major stakes in Embraer. Hey don't shoot the messenger 🤷

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## GriffinsRule

Ahmet Pasha said:


> There's at least 3 companies developing a similar KC390 like design.
> Japanese Mitsubishi (I'm not well aware on it)
> Brazilian Embraer
> Ukrainian Antonov and now TAI is also entering the fray with the Ukrainians.
> 
> PakMil: Like the girl that has tons of stuff in the wardrobe but still says I have nothing to wear.


I wouldn't count on the Ukrainian angle much. I feel it's a lot of smoke and mirrors

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> You know at the time when I brought up KC390 the reaction of PDFers was same old it's not mature, we have indestructible C130s, mighty PAF doesn't need it. Now it looks like after the pandemic roller coaster is gone. A lot of nations may be interested in swooping up this jet and major stakes in Embraer. Hey don't shoot the messenger 🤷


'Mature' is code for buying US or Chinese.

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## Ahmet Pasha

GriffinsRule said:


> I wouldn't count on the Ukrainian angle much. I feel it's a lot of smoke and mirrors


Sir wait till the Turks jump in with their new and old expertise or at least their will to gain new expertise(which are rare in PakMilInd complex if not non existent). Ukrainians already have running and flying airplane designs with their own engines. The Turks aim to improve upon those designs. 

In 0.5-1.5 decades you'll see PakMil uncles going to ask(read beg) either of these i.e Brazilians ir Turko-Ukrainians for these airplanes. If they're not chasing their tails with the Americans or Iron Brother(It would actually be a good idea to look into Y20).


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 'Mature' is code for buying US or Chinese.


The 2 Abba Gs ofcourse how could I forget


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## Sifar zero

Shabi1 said:


> PAF has a timeline for C-130 replacement which has not yet come, not a matter of funds but priorities right now. The oldest ones were quietly replaced, this platform is working fine right now but their time is yet to come.
> My own opinion is PAF will strongly consider the C-390 eventually, so its a interesting aircraft to follow. Right now the Midas multirole tankers are PAFs backbone for transport and they are getting upgrades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Embraer C-390 Millennium - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


Which aircraft quietly replaced C 130?


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## MIRauf

The Cessna looks more like a Special Mission aircraft then a VIP carriage.


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## python-000

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was wondering if we could re-engine the Ukrainian An-70s with PW150s (via Canada), but saw that (it being the bigger plane) required way more powerful powerplants.
> 
> The crazier option is trying to design an original turboprop aircraft similar to the Herc. The engines are there (e.g., PW150), and to an extent, we can draw on Ukraine's experience -- e.g., a miniaturized An-70? Sure the economies-of-scale isn't there at all if we're the only user, but OTOH, what if we perpetually build them at a rate of 1-2 a year?
> 
> Basically, we replace our old domestically built transports with new ones every 25-30 years (just like the US has done with the Herc-line)? Imagine a design that's a bit larger than the An-178 (but smaller than the An-77), and uses 4 PW150s instead of the 2 turbofans?
> 
> View attachment 735484






I it realy a wonderful machina...

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Army 
*Cessna 208B Grand Caravan EX*

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## python-000




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## ghazi52



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## python-000

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 736758


They served there job in PAA very well but now there place is here...


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## Bossman

Imran Khan said:


> they have big transport fleet why they order two more


These are Air Ambulances.

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## Imran Khan

Bossman said:


> These are Air Ambulances.


if true then they should order more too

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## ghazi52

python-000 said:


> They served there job in PAA very well but now there place is here...
> View attachment 736804



Or like this

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## Imran Khan

ghazi52 said:


> Or like this
> 
> View attachment 736819
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 736820


ina lillah wa ina aleh rajoon mar gya bechara

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## python-000

Imran Khan said:


> ina lillah wa ina aleh rajoon mar gya bechara


Kal base pa soyam ha apne tasbeh sath lana na bhulain...

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## Imran Khan

python-000 said:


> Kal base pa soyam ha apne tasbeh sath lana na bhulain...


roti shoti bhi hogi ?

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## python-000

Imran Khan said:


> roti shoti bhi hogi ?


Nhi bhai roti nhi ha bagair aalo ke biryani ha...

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## Scorpiooo

>


python-000 said:


> They served there job in PAA very well but now there place is here...
> View attachment 736804


IMO they will not be retire instead they will given to FC ... there role will not be over yet

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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> >
> 
> IMO they will not be retire instead they will given to FC ... there role will not be over yet


They aren’t going anywhere until the military finds a replacement, until then their airframes will not have much life left. Maybe the few that do will be given to FC. Otherwise unlikely they will stay in service. 
About 35 of the original 48 are still in service.

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## blinder

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> Sir any idea how many of these we have ?? Plus armed Fennecs i.e all variants ??? before these or after these ???



That is always a bit difficult because no official disclosure is given.

What can be gleaned from public sources is the following:

10x AS350B3 (28xx serials)
10x AS550C3 armed version (7864xx serials)
7x AS350B3 (28xx serials)
9x H125 (AS350B3e) (28xx serials)
5x H125 (AS350B3e) for FC and Pak Rangers (284x serials)
3x AS350B3/3e for FWO (285x serials)
...x H125 (AS350B3e) at least two of a follow on order now seen, unknown total quantity

So, 44 already delivered:
2801 to 2826
2841 to 2845
2851 to 2853
786401 to 786410

And two at the factory in France:
2827 to 2828
Probably more to follow!

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

blinder said:


> That is always a bit difficult because no official disclosure is given.
> 
> What can be gleaned from public sources is the following:
> 
> 10x AS350B3 (28xx serials)
> 10x AS550C3 armed version (7864xx serials)
> 7x AS350B3 (28xx serials)
> 9x H125 (AS350B3e) (28xx serials)
> 5x H125 (AS350B3e) for FC and Pak Rangers (284x serials)
> 3x AS350B3/3e for FWO (285x serials)
> ...x H125 (AS350B3e) at least two of a follow on order now seen, unknown total quantity
> 
> So, 44 already delivered:
> 2801 to 2826
> 2841 to 2845
> 2851 to 2853
> 786401 to 786410
> 
> And two at the factory in France:
> 2827 to 2828
> Probably more to follow!


Thank you so much Sir .


----------



## Scorpiooo

blinder said:


> That is always a bit difficult because no official disclosure is given.
> 
> What can be gleaned from public sources is the following:
> 
> 10x AS350B3 (28xx serials)
> 10x AS550C3 armed version (7864xx serials)
> 7x AS350B3 (28xx serials)
> 9x H125 (AS350B3e) (28xx serials)
> 5x H125 (AS350B3e) for FC and Pak Rangers (284x serials)
> 3x AS350B3/3e for FWO (285x serials)
> ...x H125 (AS350B3e) at least two of a follow on order now seen, unknown total quantity
> 
> So, 44 already delivered:
> 2801 to 2826
> 2841 to 2845
> 2851 to 2853
> 786401 to 786410
> 
> And two at the factory in France:
> 2827 to 2828
> Probably more to follow!





blinder said:


> That is always a bit difficult because no official disclosure is given.
> 
> What can be gleaned from public sources is the following:
> 
> 10x AS350B3 (28xx serials)
> 10x AS550C3 armed version (7864xx serials)
> 7x AS350B3 (28xx serials)
> 9x H125 (AS350B3e) (28xx serials)
> 5x H125 (AS350B3e) for FC and Pak Rangers (284x serials)
> 3x AS350B3/3e for FWO (285x serials)
> ...x H125 (AS350B3e) at least two of a follow on order now seen, unknown total quantity
> 
> So, 44 already delivered:
> 2801 to 2826
> 2841 to 2845
> 2851 to 2853
> 786401 to 786410
> 
> And two at the factory in France:
> 2827 to 2828
> Probably more to follow!


Thanks for sharing information 

This mean in actual PAA have only 10 attack variants all other are for utility role only or vip


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## python-000

We can get Z-10ME from China like this in no time & can assambled them in Pakistan.

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## Scorpiooo

python-000 said:


> We can get Z-10ME from China like this in no time & can assambled them in Pakistan.
> View attachment 737095


We can or we will


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## Scorpiooo

Any update on Z10ME, which rumored that PAA us re evaluation process as limited numbers option


python-000 said:


> We can get Z-10ME from China like this in no time & can assambled them in Pakistan.
> View attachment 737095


Is it a technical hint

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## Imran Khan

python-000 said:


> We can get Z-10ME from China like this in no time & can assambled them in Pakistan.
> View attachment 737095


look the size of donkey compare to cobra helicopter

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

*'Happy Pilots Day'*

Great pilots are made, not born.
A man may possess good eyesight, sensitive hands & perfect coordination, but the end result is only fashioned by steady coaching, much practice & experience ...

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## python-000

Scorpiooo said:


> Any update on Z10ME, which rumored that PAA us re evaluation process as limited numbers option
> 
> Is it a technical hint


No it is a technical suggestion...


----------



## GriffinsRule



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## ghazi52

A close-up of Mi-35 Hind, equipped with external UPK-23 twin barrel gun pods and multi barrel rocket pods.

© Arbab Fahad

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## Scorpiooo

ghazi52 said:


> A close-up of Mi-35 Hind, equipped with external UPK-23 twin barrel gun pods and multi barrel rocket pods.
> 
> © Arbab Fahad
> 
> View attachment 739783


This scheme of khali cemo with blue bottom really looks awkward


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## Raja Porus

ghazi52 said:


> A close-up of Mi-35 Hind, equipped with external UPK-23 twin barrel gun pods and multi barrel rocket pods.
> 
> © Arbab Fahad
> 
> View attachment 739783


Does anyone lnow the calibre of the external guns.


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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Does anyone lnow the calibre of the external guns.


23mm. hence UPK-23. Same as the cannon on JF-17.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Will we ever see advanced munitions on these Mi35s??


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## iLION12345_1

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Will we ever see advanced munitions on these Mi35s??


Kornet-E ATGWs were ordered with these for when they will be used in anti-Tank role in conventional warfare. Those are some of the best ATGMs out there. So far we’ve not needed to use them.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> 23mm. hence UPK-23. Same as the cannon on JF-17.


How many rounds can it carry on each pod.
Also is there any specific reason why they are being used in Balochistan.


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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> How many rounds can it carry on each pod.
> Also is there any specific reason why they are being used in Balochistan.


Carries 250 rounds each. UPK translates to “universal Gun pod” from Russian. It’s full name is UPK-23-250 (23mm, 250 rounds).

They’re probably being used in Baluchistan as they are the most advanced Gunships we have. Not sure if they are also being used in the transport role.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

*If your Cobras can still fly *

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## Thorough Pro

it's in the name, UPK-23 is 23 mm



Desert Fox 1 said:


> Does anyone lnow the calibre of the external guns.

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## ghazi52



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## Tipu7

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> *If your Cobras can still fly *
> 
> View attachment 740009
> 
> View attachment 740007


It was once on the agenda and Pak-Turk talks also took place. But possibly, this possible deal was also collapsed by United States.

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## Raja Porus

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 740044


Infantry school?

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## iLION12345_1

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 740044


Old pic, here’s better Res

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## Reichmarshal

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Infantry school?


cant be as these are FC tanks

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## spectregunship

Reichmarshal said:


> cant be as these are FC tanks


90% chance its the same place as mentioned by D Fox 1


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## khanasifm

iLION12345_1 said:


> Old pic, here’s better Res
> View attachment 740125



100 mm gun so FC tank troop

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## iLION12345_1

khanasifm said:


> 100 mm gun so FC tank troop


You can see FC Baluchistan guys sitting on top yes


----------



## Raja Porus

A Cobra engaging terrorists in Balochistan.

        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## spectregunship

Desert Fox 1 said:


> A Cobra engaging terrorists in Balochistan.
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram



sweet... it would've been even better had the radio chatter been audible...

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## Signalian

Bit of Heli A2A action

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## Ahmet Pasha

spectregunship said:


> sweet... it would've been even better had the radio chatter been audible...


Do AH1s have flir? I think FC should get as much flir kit as possible.


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## Scorpiooo

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Do AH1s have flir? I think FC should get as much flir kit as possible.


This is only possible when FC got these cobra. The cobras can transferred only once PA got alternative inducted and trained.. 
we dont when this process even can be started.. as everything is in air right now, T129 dont know, Z10ME may be etc


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## spectregunship

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Do AH1s have flir? I think FC should get as much flir kit as possible.



As far my knowledge goes our Cobras aren't equipped with FLIR... anybody can correct me... 
true... all these small little additions act as force multipliers, can make the fighting difference and instil fear into the enemy..after which they will think twice before undertaking any ambush..but.. its for the top brass to think and decide...


----------



## khanasifm

Cobra [emoji216] Night Targeting System 





__





A Cobra Night Targeting System - Finally!







www.globalsecurity.org


----------



## khanasifm



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## GriffinsRule

C-NITE is tech from the 80s. Its no way comparable to modern day FLIR devices.

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## Aamir Hussain

Our Cobras are equipped with C-Nite and Bell 412's as well. Both of them worked very well in conjunction with STAR Safire equipped C-130's during WoT.

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## PanzerKiel

iLION12345_1 said:


> You can see FC Baluchistan guys sitting on top yes


It is infantry school,a squadron of these tanks is permanently with the school for training purposes.

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## Sifar zero

PanzerKiel said:


> It is infantry school,a squadron of these tanks is permanently with the school for training purposes.


Did the SSG conduct any ops in Balochistan over the last few years?


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## PanzerKiel

Sifar zero said:


> Did the SSG conduct any ops in Balochistan over the last few years?


They have been doing it there for the last two decades now.

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> It is infantry school,a squadron of these tanks is permanently with the school for training purposes.


In PMA as well, right?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> C-NITE is tech from the 80s. Its no way comparable to modern day FLIR devices.


You're right. I don't recall seeing any of our AH-1F/S using an EO/IR turret. I wonder if the PAA operates the AH-1F/S in close conjunction with the H125M (with the latter using EO/IR).

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## AMG_12

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You're right. I don't recall seeing any of our AH-1F/S using an EO/IR turret. I wonder if the PAA operates the AH-1F/S in close conjunction with the H125M (with the latter using EO/IR).


Bell 412s with EO/IR turret and AH-1fs have been operating in tandem during the major ops in ex-FATA.

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## Sifar zero

AMG_12 said:


> Bell 412s with EO/IR turret and AH-1fs have been operating in tandem during the major ops in ex-FATA.


They have been used in Balochistan.Contrary to what members here saying that air support is not available it has been used in Balochistan after certain attacks.They have appeared in certain militant propaganda videos.

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## Sifar zero

PanzerKiel said:


> They have been doing it there for the last two decades now.


And what about this camo for LCB is it in use?


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## Aamir Hussain

PanzerKiel said:


> They have been doing it there for the last two decades now.


If we don't count the commando actions in the early to mid seventies

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## python-000



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## PanzerKiel

Desert Fox 1 said:


> In PMA as well, right?


Nopes

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## Primus

PanzerKiel said:


> Nopes


Is the PAA getting any new attack helos soon (like with the PAF and PA getting new equipment) or is it still too soon to say?


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## PanzerKiel

Huffal said:


> Is the PAA getting any new attack helos soon (like with the PAF and PA getting new equipment) or is it still too soon to say?


Last week I saw a fully LOADED AND ARMED flight... Not one, whole flight, of Z10s lingering about.... 

As far as your query is concerned, I think officially its a bit early to say....

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## Primus

PanzerKiel said:


> Last week I saw a fully LOADED AND ARMED flight... Not one, whole flight, of Z10s lingering about....
> 
> As far as your query is concerned, I think officially its a bit early to say....


Hmmm idk if that's sarcasm or not. My mild autism makes these things difficult.

Also understandable

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## Imran Khan

AS AH1Z hangers will be ready on multan airbase and there is no sign of choppers so can we use them for store mangos ?

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## HawkEye27



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## python-000

HawkEye27 said:


> View attachment 742644


If these PAA patches are real & realy belong to our Army Avation then its means that we already inducted these upgraded Z-10ME in our inventory...

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## khanasifm

HawkEye27 said:


> View attachment 742644



Looks fan made [emoji6]if inducted it would be on the news [emoji438] and all over announced


----------



## GriffinsRule

Looks like construction of Bahrain's AH-1Zs has started. Same count as PAA's initial order. The price tag suggests to me that if Pakistan really wanted to pay for these, they could, if the situation was so dire between India and Pakistan. 

BELL BEGINS PRODUCTION OF BAHRAIN AH-1Zs
Bell has started production of the 12 AH-1Z Vipers ordered for the Kingdom of Bahrain.
The US manufacturer announced the milestone on April 12 after hosting a delegation from the country, which toured the Bell Amarillo production facility in Texas on March 31 to observe the production line and
ceremoniously sign the frame of the first of these attack helicopters destined to join the Royal Bahraini Air Force.
Bell was awarded a $240.27 million Foreign Military Sales contract on February 7, 2019, for manufacture and delivery of the 12 Lot 16 AH-1Zs.
The company projects production deliveries to Bahrain will begin later this year.

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## Readerdefence

Hi may be in that case Bahrain negotiated with Pakistan to let go their side of AH1Z and Bahrain can take over ready to deliver and stored for PA AH1Z 
just a thought 
thank you


----------



## spectregunship

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You're right. I don't recall seeing any of our AH-1F/S using an EO/IR turret. I wonder if the PAA operates the AH-1F/S in close conjunction with the H125M (with the latter using EO/IR).



Fennec form part of the combat group.. just like any other combat aviation groups like US Army Aviation, ours do the same... 
only due to this WoT / COIN ops have fennecs been used independently and sometimes for light utility roles otherwise it is part and parcel of same sqns that operate cobra..

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## GriffinsRule

Readerdefence said:


> Hi may be in that case Bahrain negotiated with Pakistan to let go their side of AH1Z and Bahrain can take over ready to deliver and stored for PA AH1Z
> just a thought
> thank you


No, Bell is building new ones for Bahrain

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## python-000



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## Ahmet Pasha

@WebMaster can you please unban me from Pakistan Army Aviation T129 thread. I was banned for posting in urdu. It's been 3 years now. Thanks

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Operation Koh-e-Paima was impossible without the Army Aviation's efforts; countless recon missions across the LC, shifting of medium guns and casualty evacuation in hostile territory.









Colonel Raheel Sehgal SJ, CO of the "Chumik Saviours" Sqn, next to a Lama chopper. 1989.

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## ghazi52

PAA Bell 412 EP...

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Army Aviation Cobra Gunship AH-1F,

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## Metal 0-1

Pakistan Army Aviation transport fleet is a bit weak. For the relief missions of 2005 Earthquake and 2010 floods we've to rely on US Army and Marines helicopters.


Pakistan should acquire heavy and medium lift helicopters to support combat and other missions.

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## Tamiyah

Metal 0-1 said:


> Pakistan Army Aviation transport fleet is a bit weak. For the relief missions of 2005 Earthquake and 2010 floods we've to rely on US Army and Marines helicopters.
> 
> 
> Pakistan should acquire heavy and medium lift helicopters to support combat and other missions.


Already in process. I am talking about medium lift.

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## spectregunship

Tamiyah said:


> Already in process. I am talking about medium lift.


There are no new medium lift helis for PAA in the pipeline...


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## Imran Khan



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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

Bell 412

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## Reichmarshal

Imran Khan said:


> View attachment 750602


When was this taken?


----------



## Metal 0-1

Reichmarshal said:


> When was this taken?


It's an old pic. When Z-10s were under trial in Pakistan.


----------



## Tipu7

Z10 (ME?). Pic snapped in 2020.

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## Blacklight

Tipu7 said:


> View attachment 750614
> 
> 
> 
> Z10 (ME?). Pic snapped in 2020.


Jan 2020

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## Scorpiooo

Metal 0-1 said:


> Pakistan Army Aviation transport fleet is a bit weak. For the relief missions of 2005 Earthquake and 2010 floods we've to rely on US Army and Marines helicopters.
> 
> 
> Pakistan should acquire heavy and medium lift helicopters to support combat and other missions.


Agree, that need to addressed on serious ground in any war and natural disaster heavy/medium helis role is very imp


----------



## Tipu7

Blacklight said:


> Jan 2020


I have always supported (performance wise) T-129 over Z-10 for past three years... 
Last year was bit grim when I learnt that Z10s are back and are in trials...

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## MIRauf

Scorpiooo said:


> Agree, that need to addressed on serious ground in any war and natural disaster heavy/medium helis role is very imp


NH-90 or AW101 if funds permit it, US Option for medium / heavy is out as previous requests for CH-47 were denied, S-70 was not even entertained or deemed too expensive.


----------



## Scorpiooo

MIRauf said:


> NH-90 or AW101 if funds permit it, US Option for medium / heavy is out as previous requests for CH-47 were denied, S-70 was not even entertained or deemed too expensive.


Agree finance is problem, but Russian transport are good ecnomical solutions even used ones Mi 171 , MI 26


----------



## Imran Khan

Reichmarshal said:


> When was this taken?


old pic sir

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## Reichmarshal

👍


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## Blacklight

Tipu7 said:


> I have always supported (performance wise) T-129 over Z-10 for past three years...
> Last year was bit grim when I learnt that Z10s are back and are in trials...


The Z10 and Z10ME are two different beasts. The "ME" exceeds the T-129 in all aspects, and is nearly, as good as the Zulus.

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## mingle

Blacklight said:


> The Z10 and Z10ME are two different beasts. The "ME" exceeds the T-129 in all aspects, and is nearly, as good as the Zulus.


Chinese put jinsing in it?

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> The Z10 and Z10ME are two different beasts. The "ME" exceeds the T-129 in all aspects, and is nearly, as good as the Zulus.


Lets see when actually they are inducted in PAA and in what quantity

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## GriffinsRule

Blacklight said:


> The Z10 and Z10ME are two different beasts. The "ME" exceeds the T-129 in all aspects, and is nearly, as good as the Zulus.


Post these mythical specs of ME version


----------



## Blacklight

GriffinsRule said:


> Post these *mythical *specs of* ME version*


This is what is publicly available, the rest you dont deserve to know.


Major General Syed Najeeb Ahmed, commander, army aviation, told Defence IQ’s International Military Helicopter conference in London on 26 February.“We are looking at other options. One of them is in China in the shape of the *new attack helicopter they have created called the Z-10ME*,” he says.
Pakistan had previously evaluated an earlier version of the CAIC Z-10, but Ahmed says the latest iteration has improved weapons and systems. 









Z-10ME: Photos Emerge of New Z-10 Attack Helicopter Variant


On 20 September, the Chinese news daily Global Times reported that recent photos of an apparently new Z-10 attack helicopter variant were those of the Z-10ME, an improved variant of the Z-10 manufactu...




quwa.org













China’s Z-10ME Showcased with Increased Capabilities


The enhanced Z-10ME with anti-submarine and special forces capabilities was showcased at Airshow China in Zhuhai in October.




www.ainonline.com





China’s export helicopter Z-10ME ‘invisible’ to infrared homing missiles

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> This is what is publicly available, the rest you dont deserve to know.
> 
> 
> Major General Syed Najeeb Ahmed, commander, army aviation, told Defence IQ’s International Military Helicopter conference in London on 26 February.“We are looking at other options. One of them is in China in the shape of the *new attack helicopter they have created called the Z-10ME*,” he says.
> Pakistan had previously evaluated an earlier version of the CAIC Z-10, but Ahmed says the latest iteration has improved weapons and systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Z-10ME: Photos Emerge of New Z-10 Attack Helicopter Variant
> 
> 
> On 20 September, the Chinese news daily Global Times reported that recent photos of an apparently new Z-10 attack helicopter variant were those of the Z-10ME, an improved variant of the Z-10 manufactu...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quwa.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China’s Z-10ME Showcased with Increased Capabilities
> 
> 
> The enhanced Z-10ME with anti-submarine and special forces capabilities was showcased at Airshow China in Zhuhai in October.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ainonline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China’s export helicopter Z-10ME ‘invisible’ to infrared homing missiles


@Blacklight whats ur opnion, PAA will get Z10ME additional to T129 (as deal is not officially over) or as replacement of T129 order

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## Blacklight

Scorpiooo said:


> @Blacklight whats ur opnion, PAA will get Z10ME additional to T129 (as deal is not officially over) or as replacement of T129 order


T129 deal is dead.

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> T129 deal is dead.


Seems to be like that apparently, in that case we can see z10me in 30+ numbers in future for PAA.

_____________________________________________

Possibly 1.5 billion proven turkish loan for T129 can be deverted to other PAA asset from turkish like advance drone or Atak 2

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## Blacklight

GriffinsRule said:


> .........................................


Your comprehension issues are not my problem.


----------



## GriffinsRule

Blacklight said:


> Your comprehension issues are not my problem.


But you peddling lies should be everyone's problem Mr " The "ME" exceeds the T-129 in* all *aspects..."


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IMO ... the new attack helicopter will come from the first country to post a loan for Pakistan.

If the US does it tomorrow, then expect to see AH-1Zs. If the Chinese extend their credit line (on top of the loans for VT4, 054A/P, Hangor, etc), then we'll see the Z-10ME. A big reason why the T129 was selected was because the Turks let us pay in installments.

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## Blacklight

GriffinsRule said:


> But you peddling lies should be everyone's problem Mr " The "ME" exceeds the T-129 in* all *aspects..."


Dear Clueless, stay clueless and move along, dont spoil threads with your nonsense.

What the "ME" can deliver or not, is for PAA to decide, you just keep pissing in the wind.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... the new attack helicopter will come from the first country to post a loan for Pakistan.
> 
> If the US does it tomorrow, then expect to see AH-1Zs. If the Chinese extend their credit line (on top of the loans for VT4, 054A/P, Hangor, etc), then we'll see the Z-10ME. A big reason why the T129 was selected was because the Turks let us pay in installments.


VT4's are paid for - No loan

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## Blacklight

GriffinsRule said:


> Follow your own words of wisdom


Dont worry about me, worry about how foolish you look, after being caught clueless on the "ME".


----------



## GriffinsRule

Blacklight said:


> Dont worry about me, worry about how foolish you look, after being caught clueless on the "ME".


Oh right, the specs of which you have in a secret black book that some how you can't share to backup your claim.


----------



## Blacklight

GriffinsRule said:


> Oh right, the specs of which you have in a secret black book that some how you can't share to backup your claim.


I already posted a link to a statement by the CO of PAA, one which you could not fathom. 

To the rest just more gibberish from you. Please continue, it is quite entertaining.

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## ali_raza

GriffinsRule said:


> Oh right, the specs of which you have in a secret black book that some how you can't share to backup your claim.


buddy have some respect for a service member 
he is a professional 
while guys like u are available dime a dozen on local landa market.
have a responsible debate and don’t insult anyone

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## GriffinsRule

ali_raza said:


> buddy have some respect for a service member
> he is a professional
> while guys like u are available dime a dozen on local landa market.
> have a responsible debate and don’t insult anyone


Interesting that you are asking me to respect someone while disrespecting me in the same go. Nicely done. No thank you.

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## ali_raza

GriffinsRule said:


> Interesting that you are asking me to respect someone while disrespecting me in the same go. Nicely done. No thank you.


cant blame me can u.
there is a generation in pakistan which has infringed sense of hatred towards anything good being said 
no logic just badtamizi bakwas maskhara pan and jugat bazi
i m not saying its u but this is where our society is largely headed 
so please try to keep it civil

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## khanasifm

Blacklight said:


> Dear Clueless, stay clueless and move along, dont spoil threads with your nonsense.
> 
> What the "ME" can deliver or not, is for PAA to decide, you just keep pissing in the wind.
> 
> VT4's are paid for - No loan



Is there active protection system on vt4s ? For paa ? V5 4 has one on plaaa 

Also AK?


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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... the new attack helicopter will come from the first country to post a loan for Pakistan.
> 
> If the US does it tomorrow, then expect to see AH-1Zs. If the Chinese extend their credit line (on top of the loans for VT4, 054A/P, Hangor, etc), then we'll see the Z-10ME. A big reason why the T129 was selected was because the Turks let us pay in installments.


In PAA the requirement is of mix of heavy and medium cetagory attack helicopter. 
For replacing three sqds of AH-1F/S, PAA opt for one Sqd (12 units) of AH-1Z (heavy attack) and two-three sqds (30 units) of T-129 (medium attack).

Z-10ME, if arrived, will nullify the need for T-129 or even T-629. The gap for heavier attack helicopters will remain there where likes of AH-1Z or Mi-28NE can only fit. (T-929 in longer run?)

We need this heavy-medium combo to compensate our vastly different threat environment. Mediums will go to North-Center, Heavies will cover the center-South.


khanasifm said:


> Is there active protection system on vt4s ? For paa ? V5 4 has one on plaaa
> 
> Also AK?


No.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> In PAA the requirement is of mix of heavy and medium cetagory attack helicopter.
> For replacing three sqds of AH-1F/S, PAA opt for one Sqd (12 units) of AH-1Z (heavy attack) and two-three sqds (30 units) of T-129 (medium attack).
> 
> Z-10ME, if arrived, will nullify the need for T-129 or even T-629. The gap for heavier attack helicopters will remain there where likes of AH-1Z or Mi-28NE can only fit. (T-929 in longer run?)
> 
> We need this heavy-medium combo to compensate our vastly different threat environment. Mediums will go to North-Center, Heavies will cover the center-South.
> 
> No.


Yep the plan was for a heavy and light mix. If the Z-10ME comes, then the heavy would have to be 9-10+ tons for sure. In that case, there's a chance we could hop on the T-929 (and T-925 for transport).

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... the new attack helicopter will come from the first country to post a loan for Pakistan.
> 
> If the US does it tomorrow, then expect to see AH-1Zs. If the Chinese extend their credit line (on top of the loans for VT4, 054A/P, Hangor, etc), then we'll see the Z-10ME. A big reason why the T129 was selected was because the Turks let us pay in installments.


Make sence...


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## Scorpiooo

Tipu7 said:


> Z-10ME, if arrived, will nullify the need for T-129 or even T-629. The gap for heavier attack helicopters will remain there where likes of AH-1Z or Mi-28NE can only fit. (T-929 in longer run?)


@Tipu7 do you really think PAA will be seriously considering Mi28s , can you please share why T929/Atak2 are out ?


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep the plan was for a heavy and light mix. If the Z-10ME comes, then the heavy would have to be 9-10+ tons for sure. In that case, there's a chance we could hop on the T-929 (and T-925 for transport).


So can PAA divert approved loan fron atak 1 (t129) to atak 2 (929 ? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## nomi007

PAA is well aware of chinese Helos, especially Z-9.
Chinese helos looks very beautiful but they are too costly to maintained.


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## Scorpiooo

nomi007 said:


> PAA is well aware of chinese Helos, especially Z-9.
> Chinese helos looks very beautiful but they are too costly to maintained.


Its capabilities that metter not looks


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## Tipu7

Scorpiooo said:


> @Tipu7 do you really think PAA will be seriously considering Mi28s , can you please share why T929/Atak2 are out ?


PAA has considered a tailored version of Mi-28 in past, but the negotiations never advanced beyond a certain stage. 
T-929 is never out as its yet to 'in'. It's a thing of future. Their is a good probability that US will allow AH-1Z soon enough.
If AH-1Z materialized, then there won't be any T-929. If AH-1Z fails to deliver, PAA will re evaluate its options. It will either opt for Mi-28 or will join (may be) T-929 program alongside T-925.

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## Scorpiooo

Tipu7 said:


> PAA has considered a tailored version of Mi-28 in past, but the negotiations never advanced beyond a certain stage.
> T-929 is never out as its yet to 'in'. It's a thing of future. Their is a good probability that US will allow AH-1Z soon enough.
> If AH-1Z materialized, then there won't be any T-929. If AH-1Z fails to deliver, PAA will re evaluate its options. It will either opt for Mi-28 or will join (may be) T-929 program alongside T-925.


So PAA want more AH-1Zs other then those 12 , that will be interesting case

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## Moon

Would something like Super Tucanos be inducted into PAA? It's cheap, easy to maintain, doesn't need prepared airfields, can carry guided munitions, is more difficult to be shot down than a gunship, is faster than a gunship, it can fly higher than a gunship and much more. Plus it can provide rapid air support along the western border.... Or is PAA strictly against fixed wing combat aircraft, like the US Army?

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## GriffinsRule

Mr.Meap said:


> Would something like Super Tucanos be inducted into PAA? It's cheap, easy to maintain, doesn't need prepared airfields, can carry guided munitions, is more difficult to be shot down than a gunship, is faster than a gunship, it can fly higher than a gunship and much more. Plus it can provide rapid air support along the western border.... Or is PAA strictly against fixed wing combat aircraft, like the US Army?


Something like that would be a good buy consid wrong we are strut to provide air support to troops under attack at remote outposts. PAA is certainly not against fixed wing aircraft as they fly more Mushshaks than the aid force does.

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## Yasser76

I think much of this will possibly be decided by the US Basing negotiations. Recent NYT article qouted 3 senior US officials as saying negotiations were on going. Let's not kid ourselves, this will be a very transactional affair, Pakistan will simply demand things from US in exchange and I suspect release of AH-1Z, T-129 engines is something the US have been holding back specifically for these negotiations.

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## Blacklight

Scorpiooo said:


> So PAA want more AH-1Zs other then those 12 , that will be interesting case


The initial idea was 36, but 24 was the figure they settled on.

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## Blacklight

Tipu7 said:


> PAA has considered a tailored version of Mi-28 in past, but the negotiations never advanced beyond a certain stage.
> T-929 is never out as its yet to 'in'. It's a thing of future. Their is a good probability that US will allow AH-1Z soon enough.
> If AH-1Z materialized, then there won't be any T-929. If AH-1Z fails to deliver, PAA will re evaluate its options. It will either opt for Mi-28 or will join (may be) T-929 program alongside T-925.



Whats the news on the new AW's? 


*Note: Not AW139*

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## Tipu7

Blacklight said:


> Whats the news on the new AW's?
> 
> 
> *Note: Not AW139*


Isn't the 'AW news' belong to Naval Aviation department?


Blacklight said:


> The initial idea was 36, but 24 was the figure they settled on.


 The 24 figure is still valid? 🤔

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## Blacklight

Tipu7 said:


> Isn't the 'AW news' belong to Naval Aviation department?


AW = Agusta Westland now Leonardo




Tipu7 said:


> The 24 figure is still valid? 🤔



If the Zulus are coming, then yes.

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## iLION12345_1

Blacklight said:


> AW = Agusta Westland now Leonardo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the Zulus are coming, then yes.


He meant to ask if the AW related news was for naval aviation or army aviation.

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## Blacklight

iLION12345_1 said:


> He meant to ask if the AW related news was for naval aviation or army aviation.


Army Aviation

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## Moon

GriffinsRule said:


> Something like that would be a good buy consid wrong we are strut to provide air support to troops under attack at remote outposts. PAA is certainly not against fixed wing aircraft as they fly more Mushshaks than the aid force does.


Yep, and here's the thing, India inducted Apaches, you can't counter something like that with Cobras, Z-10s, T129s. A Super Tucano however can, it can outfly an Apache, carry more tank-busting munitions and what not.... Furthermore something like that could be built in Pakistan, creating jobs and what not.


Mr.Meap said:


> Yep, and here's the thing, India inducted Apaches, you can't counter something like that with Cobras, Z-10s, T129s. A Super Tucano however can, it can outfly an Apache, carry more tank-busting munitions and what not.... Furthermore something like that could be built in Pakistan, creating jobs and what not.


Though Mushaks are more for observation role I think


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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> The initial idea was 36, but 24 was the figure they settled on.


That good news sir, hope it materialized this time in actual

So there induction will be along with Z10ME or only zulus will inducted


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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> Army Aviation


Means something really new news for us, hopefully something good in capabilities and then actually materialized too @Blacklight 


Tipu7 said:


> Isn't the 'AW news' belong to Naval Aviation department?
> The 24 figure is still valid? 🤔


@Tipu7 This mean PN really serious on AW both option in actual, what are they chances that they select it not agian go for Chinese z9s etc


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## Zarvan

Blacklight said:


> Army Aviation


An Indian twitter account is claiming that Pakistan will continue to use Puma helicopters as negotiations with Russia for new MI 17 helicopters have stalled. Any truth to this claim or is it BS.


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## iLION12345_1

BS. 


Zarvan said:


> An Indian twitter account is claiming that Pakistan will continue to use Puma helicopters as negotiations with Russia for new MI 17 helicopters have stalled. Any truth to this claim or is it BS.

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## Blacklight

Zarvan said:


> An Indian twitter account is claiming that Pakistan will continue to use Puma helicopters as negotiations with Russia for new MI 17 helicopters have stalled. Any truth to this claim or is it BS.


With any negotiations there are stalls, and rapid developments, Its always a "W" shaped event. I wouldn't read too much into what twitter champions have to say.

Do keep in mind that we maintain a very good MRO+ facility for the Mi-17's, so there is a lot less arm twisting by the Russians, and right now they do want to sell to us.

Ultimately, PAA is due for a major overhaul, both on the lift capability side, as well as the anti-Armour side, so I would would have faith in the Almighty that it all works out.

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> With any negotiations there are stalls, and rapid developments, Its always a "W" shaped event. I wouldn't read too much into what twitter champions have to say.
> 
> Ultimately, PAA is due for a major overhaul, both on the lift capablity side, as well as the anti-Armour side, so I would would have faith in the Almighty that it all works out.


Any discussion on MI 26 aswell with russian for heavyweight uplift or not ?


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## Blacklight

Scorpiooo said:


> Any discussion on MI 26 aswell with russian for heavyweight uplift or not ?


Not that I am aware of.


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## Tipu7

Scorpiooo said:


> @Tipu7 This mean PN really serious on AW both option in actual, what are they chances that they select it not agian go for Chinese z9s etc


it's about time we will start hearing about naval aviation.

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## Scorpiooo

Tipu7 said:


> it's about time we will start hearing about naval aviation.


Means some induction or deal news in coming days

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## nomi007

PAA is also considering buying Ex Australian Euro tiger attack helicopters.
Pak airforce in past buys C-130 aircraft and most important asset Mirage-III.
Still, we are using both of these assets and are quite satisfied. 
Although Euro tigers are not fulfilling Australian requirements but they can fill the stock gap of PAA until the T-129 engine issue permanently resolved.


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## Dreamer.

Scorpiooo said:


> Means some induction or deal news in coming days


As Type 54 A/P's get close to delivery..... this (helis) will have to be decided aswell.
Same for Milgem.


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## Jamie Brooks

Tipu7 said:


> it's about time we will start hearing about naval aviation.


Maybe italian

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## MIRauf

nomi007 said:


> PAA is also considering buying Ex Australian Euro tiger attack helicopters.
> Pak airforce in past buys C-130 aircraft and most important asset Mirage-III.
> Still, we are using both of these assets and are quite satisfied.
> Although Euro tigers are not fulfilling Australian requirements but they can fill the stock gap of PAA until the T-129 engine issue permanently resolved.


Per Australians the M-IIIs were only good for Spares and that is what they thought PAF wanted them for. They were slightly bewildered when PAF / PAC was able to salvage quite a few of them and put them in operations.


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## Scorpiooo

nomi007 said:


> PAA is also considering buying Ex Australian Euro tiger attack helicopters.
> Pak airforce in past buys C-130 aircraft and most important asset Mirage-III.
> Still, we are using both of these assets and are quite satisfied.
> Although Euro tigers are not fulfilling Australian requirements but they can fill the stock gap of PAA until the T-129 engine issue permanently resolved.


Any proper sources for this info or random share by someone ? About used euro tiger


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## mingle

Scorpiooo said:


> Any proper sources for this info or random share by someone ? About used euro tiger


Euro Tigers are done that's why Australia getting rid of them

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## Scorpiooo

mingle said:


> Euro Tigers are done that's why Australia getting rid of them


Then why PAA considering them, we already have over done cobras with PAA


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## Ali_Baba

nomi007 said:


> Euro tiger attack helicopters



Euro-tigers are awful as attack helicopters - that is why so few people purchased them. PAA better off sticking with the T129 or Z10E etc.

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## Blacklight

Scorpiooo said:


> Then why PAA considering them, we already have over done cobras with PAA


When buying a new car, dont you visit 10 different showrooms?

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> When buying a new car, dont you visit 10 different showrooms?


Make sense sir, what ur opnion will be PAA serious to induct some decade old helis


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## Scorpiooo

mingle said:


> Euro Tigers are done that's why Australia getting rid of them


What is reason Australia getting rid off them? As you said they done with it.

As per open web info there induction completed in 2011 and full operation role given in 2016

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## mingle

Scorpiooo said:


> What is reason Australia getting rid off them? As you said they done with it.
> 
> As per open web info there induction completed in 2011 and full operation role given in 2016


Expensive to maintain not good in performance replacement is AH64

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## ghazi52



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## Scorpiooo

mingle said:


> Expensive to maintain not good in performance replacement is AH64


If expensive to maintain for Australian's, how we poor country can afford to fly them.

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## Viper27

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 752066
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 752067


Fakhar e Alam shared the cockpit image of the Puma as well. I was surprised to see the full glass/lcd makeover. Didn’t know our Pumas got cockpit upgrades.


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## PanzerKiel

Viper27 said:


> Fakhar e Alam shared the cockpit image of the Puma as well. I was surprised to see the full glass/lcd makeover. Didn’t know our Pumas got cockpit upgrades.


Those are Jordanian ones. I already took a ride in them.

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## Blacklight

PanzerKiel said:


> Those are Jordanian ones. I already took a ride in them.


We recvd Pumas from Jordan as well, besides UAE?

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## mingle

PanzerKiel said:


> Those are Jordanian ones. I already took a ride in them.


I believe UAE gifted dragon PUMA's

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> We recvd Pumas from Jordan as well, besides UAE?


those were ia guess super pumas

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## ali_raza

PanzerKiel said:


> Those are Jordanian ones. I already took a ride in them.


but jordan never operated pumas

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## PanzerKiel

ali_raza said:


> but jordan never operated pumas











AS332 Super Puma in al quwwat al-jawwiya al-malakiya al-urduniya


AS332 Super Puma in Royal Jordanian Air Force helicopter service. Serials, bases and units.




www.helis.com

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## Blacklight

PanzerKiel said:


> AS332 Super Puma in al quwwat al-jawwiya al-malakiya al-urduniya
> 
> 
> AS332 Super Puma in Royal Jordanian Air Force helicopter service. Serials, bases and units.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.helis.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 752565


We have Super Pumas?


ali_raza said:


> but jordan never operated pumas


True, not AS330's but AS332's i.e. Super Pumas

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> We have Super Pumas?
> 
> True, not AS330's but AS332's i.e. Super Pumas


yes and i don’t think we have super pumas 
i heard we had some leased in earthquake times from uae not sure

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## ali_raza

PanzerKiel said:


> AS332 Super Puma in al quwwat al-jawwiya al-malakiya al-urduniya
> 
> 
> AS332 Super Puma in Royal Jordanian Air Force helicopter service. Serials, bases and units.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.helis.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 752565


in the picture is super puma 332 
we have smaller brother 330

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## spectregunship

ali_raza said:


> yes and i don’t think we have super pumas
> i heard we had some leased in earthquake times from uae not sure



that is correct. we acquired these from the UAE.

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## PanzerKiel

Blacklight said:


> We have Super Pumas?
> 
> True, not AS330's but AS332's i.e. Super Pumas


Strange, I do clearly remember that I sat in one of these, Jordanian origin, were in use by our SSG at that time, out of Tarbela.... Was a heck of a ride, but the pilot clearly told me that these were Jordanian.... I didn't discuss with him much during the ride..... Being already surrounded with people on a seemingly high protein diet had its effects....

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## ali_raza

PanzerKiel said:


> Strange, I do clearly remember that I sat in one of these, Jordanian origin, were in use by our SSG at that time, out of Tarbela.... Was a heck of a ride, but the pilot clearly told me that these were Jordanian.... I didn't discuss with him much during the ride..... Being already surrounded with people on a seemingly high protein diet had its effects....


maybe the pilot confused jordan with uae 
same flag almost lol

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## PanzerKiel

ali_raza said:


> maybe the pilot confused jordan with uae
> same flag almost lol


... But he himself brought it from Jordan....

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## Blacklight

ali_raza said:


> yes and i don’t think we have super pumas
> i heard we had some leased in earthquake times from uae not sure


UAE Super Pumas are operated by their navy. Their Chinooks came, maybe Pumas as well, but none were leased. They were all operated with their crews and our liaison officer onboard.



spectregunship said:


> that is correct. we acquired these from the UAE.


Gifted, just like Mirage V's

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## TsAr

Blacklight said:


> UAE Super Pumas are operated by their navy. Their Chinooks came, maybe Pumas as well, but none were leased. They were all operated with their crews and our liaison officer onboard.


Same as with US Chinooks.

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## Reichmarshal

No jordanian pumas in service with PA.
The ones operated by the dragons are upgraded pumas bought from uae

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## Raja Porus

Reichmarshal said:


> No jordanian pumas in service with PA.
> The ones operated by the dragons are upgraded pumas bought from uae


Then the pilot must be high.


----------



## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1403792949083840520

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## ali_raza

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Then the pilot must be high.


lol as claimed by our other esteemed member that pilot himself brought from jordan then m sure wht u said is true 😂


Reichmarshal said:


> No jordanian pumas in service with PA.
> The ones operated by the dragons are upgraded pumas bought from uae


uae gifted em

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## Blacklight

ali_raza said:


> uae gifted em


The other half went to Lebanon, wish we had gotten those as well.

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> The other half went to Lebanon, wish we had gotten those as well.


its still good we got some 
pumas are expensive items 
but uts true we should have gotten the whole lot like we got mirage v from uae back in the day
but i must confess we messed up pretty bad in middle east our reputation isn’t something to be proud of

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## 313ghazi

Considering we spent all these years fighting insurgents why didn't we ever try getting the A10 warthogs for PAA? 

@Windjammer @PanzerKiel

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## Windjammer

313ghazi said:


> Considering we spent all these years fighting insurgents why didn't we ever try getting the A10 warthogs for PAA?
> 
> @Windjammer @PanzerKiel


It was apparently on the wishlist in early 80s.... to counter long lines of Tanks and Armour if the Soviets decided to persue beyond Afghanistan.


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## iLION12345_1

313ghazi said:


> Considering we spent all these years fighting insurgents why didn't we ever try getting the A10 warthogs for PAA?
> 
> @Windjammer @PanzerKiel


The A10 is a highly, highly overrated aircraft that has been hyped up by media and fanboys over the decades. If you look at USAF numbers it’s been one of the least reliable platforms for CAS after the 2000s since now normal jets can do anything it can but better. That’s why they’ve been advocating to replace it for years now. The F16 is truly a much better CAS platform than A10 if people manage to look past the “cool factor” of the A10 or its use after the 90s

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## Reichmarshal

iLION12345_1 said:


> The A10 is a highly, highly overrated aircraft that has been hyped up by media and fanboys over the decades. If you look at USAF numbers it’s been one of the least reliable platforms for CAS after the 2000s since now normal jets can do anything it can but better. That’s why they’ve been advocating to replace it for years now. The F16 is truly a much better CAS platform than A10 if people manage to look past the “cool factor” of the A10 or its use after the 90s


F 16 is a multi role platform ie jack of all trades.
While at the moment their are only two dedicated CAS platforms operational in the world today
A 10 n su 25.
From the ground up they have been built for one role alone ie CAS/air to ground.
They can take massive hits and still do the job and return to base. This alone is not possible for multi role/swing role/omni role ac. As they are not built for such eventualities.

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## Metal 0-1

Reichmarshal said:


> F 16 is a multi role platform ie jack of all trades.
> While at the moment their are only two dedicated CAS platforms operational in the world today
> A 10 n su 25.
> From the ground up they have been built for one role alone ie CAS/air to ground.
> They can take massive hits and still do the job and return to base. This alone is not possible for multi role/swing role/omni role ac. As they are not built for such eventualities.



A-29 Tucano and MB-339 can do that role better and cheaper. Warthog no doubt is cool and capable plane 
but it's like using a super computer. You have to go through a lengthy procedure to load and select weapon.

Fun fact F-16 carry more armaments than A-10.

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## iLION12345_1

Reichmarshal said:


> F 16 is a multi role platform ie jack of all trades.
> While at the moment their are only two dedicated CAS platforms operational in the world today
> A 10 n su 25.
> From the ground up they have been built for one role alone ie CAS/air to ground.
> They can take massive hits and still do the job and return to base. This alone is not possible for multi role/swing role/omni role ac. As they are not built for such eventualities.



Modern multi role aircraft are much better at CAS, especially precision CAS than A-10, and this is proven by numbers, USAF has used their F-15s and F-16s more and more for CAS starting the 2000s with a better success rate against literally any target. Also A10 has fewer A2G missions flown in its history than F16, F15 and F18 aircraft. 
Same with Russian SU35 strike variants taking over CAS roles from SU25. The Pure-CAS concept is rather out dated at this point as the A-10 cannot carry as many precision munitions and cannot use them as well, cannot defend itself well in A2A combat, cannot fly as fast, far and as high as proper fighters, cannot carry an appreciably higher amount of payload and CANNOT take much more punishment than a regular fighter. A proper fighters speed alone makes it much better than an A-10 which needs proper Air support from fighters to do its job.
A lot of the A10s fame and accomplishments in CAS role are known to be hyperbole.

So in the 80s and the 90s the SU25 and the A10 concepts worked great, but after that not anymore. There’s a reason A10s replacement is a standard Multi-role fighter (F35).

People will claim it’s good for use against insurgencies because they only have AA machine guns against which it is bulletproof…well a proper fighter can’t even be hit by machine guns, and a missile will take them both out the same. The only reason it was used so much in the USAF was cost, it’s cheaper to use that than a proper fighter, but for a country like Pakistan it wouldn’t be cheaper, plus if we wanted a cheap CAS aircraft then there’s better options. You can read up on the A10s its history though, even the US Air Force never wanted it.

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## Raja Porus

* Embedded MANPADs.*

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## Dreamer.

Blacklight said:


> Gifted, just like Mirage V's


Ask them to gift the blk 60's, once they get the F-35.

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## araz

Reichmarshal said:


> F 16 is a multi role platform ie jack of all trades.
> While at the moment their are only two dedicated CAS platforms operational in the world today
> A 10 n su 25.
> From the ground up they have been built for one role alone ie CAS/air to ground.
> They can take massive hits and still do the job and return to base. This alone is not possible for multi role/swing role/omni role ac. As they are not built for such eventualities.


You may notice that the A10 has never been exported. One trick ponies ars looked down upon with the exception of air superiority platforms and even those can have multi role capacity. You may also note that only Russia and US have produced these platforms and both have now discontinued them. The Warthog has come to prominence due to the US campaigns. Typically the/US will only use them once they have achieved air superiority in the arena. During the Russian campaign the SUs did not do so well against the PAF due to their inherent weakness against an MR platform. Where the situation dictates the PAF has used a MR platform in the A2G role but this per se is not a CAS role.
Drones and Helos will remain the main go to's in this role but they will remain prone to attrition in a equally contested arena.
Regards
A

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## Windjammer

iLION12345_1 said:


> The A10 is a highly, highly overrated aircraft that has been hyped up by media and fanboys over the decades. If you look at USAF numbers it’s been one of the least reliable platforms for CAS after the 2000s since now normal jets can do anything it can but better. That’s why they’ve been advocating to replace it for years now. The F16 is truly a much better CAS platform than A10 if people manage to look past the “cool factor” of the A10 or its use after the 90s


On the contrary, the USAF has put it's A-10s through a major upgrade as it plans on holding onto it for at least another decade.









The A-10 Warthog Is Preparing For Its Biggest Upgrade In Over A Decade


A new large-area cockpit display and additional weapons are all in the grand plans to get the A-10 ready for higher-end missions.




www.thedrive.com













A-10 re-winging completed, will keep Warthog in the air until late 2030s


The new wings have an improved wire harness design, meant to make them easier to remove.




www.airforcetimes.com

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## iLION12345_1

Windjammer said:


> On the contrary, the USAF has put it's A-10s through a major upgrade as it plans on holding onto it for at least another decade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The A-10 Warthog Is Preparing For Its Biggest Upgrade In Over A Decade
> 
> 
> A new large-area cockpit display and additional weapons are all in the grand plans to get the A-10 ready for higher-end missions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A-10 re-winging completed, will keep Warthog in the air until late 2030s
> 
> 
> The new wings have an improved wire harness design, meant to make them easier to remove.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.airforcetimes.com


This is not because they like or want the A-10, it’s because the F35 project is delayed and a feasibility study conducted showed that replacing them with more MR fighters or a new CAS would cost the USAF too much, and that a new CAS fighter would be too expensive for the little capability it brings. Back when the F35 project was on track, They were meant to be retired prematurely by 2022. So even these upgrades are not because of the platform being good. USAF never wanted the platform originally either.


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## Aamir Hussain

313ghazi said:


> Considering we spent all these years fighting insurgents why didn't we ever try getting the A10 warthogs for PAA?
> 
> @Windjammer @PanzerKiel


More expensive for an Air force the size and budget of PAF to keep dedicated ground attack aircraft that are good only when you have complete air superiority over the battlefield. PAF in its war planning discounts complete air superiority on the battlefield as it would be hard to achieve vs a larger air force operating from airfields out of reach of PAF interdiction strikes. 

Even buying/getting a squadron of Warthogs for WoT would not make sense because it would have entailed, separate training, supply chain, maint. etc. It would ans was better to use the current inventory to do this task.

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> The other half went to Lebanon, wish we had gotten those as well.


How many in numbers we got and in which year ?


ali_raza said:


> its still good we got some
> pumas are expensive items
> but uts true we should have gotten the whole lot like we got mirage v from uae back in the day
> but i must confess we messed up pretty bad in middle east our reputation isn’t something to be proud of


Hard reality..

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## Windjammer

iLION12345_1 said:


> This is not because they like or want the A-10, it’s because the F35 project is delayed and a feasibility study conducted showed that replacing them with more MR fighters or a new CAS would cost the USAF too much, and that a new CAS fighter would be too expensive for the little capability it brings. Back when the F35 project was on track, They were meant to be retired prematurely by 2022. So even these upgrades are not because of the platform being good. USAF never wanted the platform originally either.


Earlier you said...*.'' The F16 is truly a much better CAS platform than A10 if people manage to look past the “cool factor” of the A10 or its use after the 90s''.*

Even if say F-35 was delayed, there are plenty of F-15s, F-16s and F/A18s available to USAF, which by your admittance are better in CAS than A-10......why spend $Millions if no $Billions on a so called dead Horse by your standards. Let me remind you the main theme on A-10s is that it believes in giving and taking hard knocks.

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## iLION12345_1

Windjammer said:


> Earlier you said...*.'' The F16 is truly a much better CAS platform than A10 if people manage to look past the “cool factor” of the A10 or its use after the 90s''.*
> 
> Even if say F-35 was delayed, there are plenty of F-15s, F-16s and F/A18s available to USAF, which by your admittance are better in CAS than A-10......why spend $Millions if no $Billions on a so called dead Horse by your standards. Let me remind you the main theme on A-10s is that it believes in giving and taking hard knocks.



Yes, what I said was true, the USAF never wanted the A10 platform, but it ended up having to get it anyways despite their wishes. As I said before _the only reason it got so much use is because it’s a lot cheaper to use it than a proper fighter jet_, which is true, I also said that _the USAF has been using F-16s, F-15s and F-18s a lot more for CAS and stroke recently due to their better performance and capabilities_ which is also true.

Despite what it may look like, I.e the USAF having _plenty_ of F-16s,15s and 18s, they will not want their aircraft numbers to go below a certain amount because they also need that many aircraft to deploy them in their bases all over the world and back at home. If USA had enough of those to dedicate them to _only_ strike roles in their COIN ops they would have done away with their A10s a long time ago, but at the current stage the USAF is replacing its older F16s, 15s and 18s with newer ones and upgrading its A10s due to the delays in the F35 program. They need their numbers to stay at the current amount, they don’t have aircraft to spare since their numbers are going down and not up.

The only reason A10s are getting upgrades is because it’s still cheaper to upgrade them instead of replace them with any other aircraft, it’s necessity and not choice.

and lastly, let me remind you that the A10 cannot knock as hard as an F-16, F15 or F18 and it can certainly not take a harder knock because the rest of those aircraft are pretty much invulnerable to whatever can hit an A10 due to their speed and superior countermeasures. At most it’s better against cannon fire, which again, proper jets are nearly invulnerable to.

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## HRK

Scorpiooo said:


> Chinese z9s


It seems PN is going with Z-9

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## Scorpiooo

Dreamer. said:


> Ask them to gift the blk 60's, once they get the F-35.


There f16 block are quite young and effective... and secondly don't think to get any more free stuff from them now


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## Tipu7

HRK said:


> It seems PN is going with Z-9


Almost sure.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

313ghazi said:


> Considering we spent all these years fighting insurgents why didn't we ever try getting the A10 warthogs for PAA?
> 
> @Windjammer @PanzerKiel


The A-10 became one of those aircraft (along with the AC-130) the U.S. wouldn't sell to anyone, much less Pakistan.

However, during the COIN situation, some key PAF people had liked the concept of the Brazilian-Italian AMX. Unfortunately, that aircraft was out of production by the time its use case because globally relevant. If it had still been in production, the PAF may have gotten it.


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## Sifar zero

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The A-10 became one of those aircraft (along with the AC-130) the U.S. wouldn't sell to anyone, much less Pakistan.
> 
> However, during the COIN situation, some key PAF people had liked the concept of the Brazilian-Italian AMX. Unfortunately, that aircraft was out of production by the time its use case because globally relevant. If it had still been in production, the PAF may have gotten it.


Any reason for not selling?
I remember there was a armed Mushak revealed in an IDEAS that would be great for the current scenario of COIN in Pakistan.It would be cheap and pilots would not need complex training for it.Not to forget the hundreds of Mushaks already in service which could be easily upgraded.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Sifar zero said:


> Any reason for not selling?
> I remember there was a armed Mushak revealed in an IDEAS that would be great for the current scenario of COIN in Pakistan.It would be cheap and pilots would not need complex training for it.Not to forget the hundreds of Mushaks already in service which could be easily upgraded.


The US considers certain equipment of strategic value, and they don't want others learning how to replicate it. The AC-130, for example, has the structural integrity to support a 105 mm gun. There are likely similar reasons at play for restricting the A-10.

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## HRK

Tipu7 said:


> Almost sure.


Actually there is a photo of Z-9 with first Type-54A/P, therefore it is almost confirm though not officially

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## iLION12345_1

HRK said:


> Actually there is a photo of Z-9 with first Type-54A/P, therefore it is almost confirm though not officially



I think That Z9 is just a placeholder model, not an actual aircraft (as it looks to just be the outer shell) but it may suggest we are getting more of them.

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## Tipu7

HRK said:


> Actually there is a photo of Z-9 with first Type-54A/P, therefore it is almost confirm though not officially


Z-9D version may be. Alongside standard anti submarine package, It's also armed with YJ-9 AShMs and thus can conduct anti surface warfare operations.

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## Goritoes

Tipu7 said:


> Z-9D version may be. Alongside standard anti submarine package, It's also armed with YJ-9 AShMs and thus can conduct anti surface warfare operations.



How would you rate it against its competitors?


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## Moon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The A-10 became one of those aircraft (along with the AC-130) the U.S. wouldn't sell to anyone, much less Pakistan.
> 
> However, during the COIN situation, some key PAF people had liked the concept of the Brazilian-Italian AMX. Unfortunately, that aircraft was out of production by the time its use case because globally relevant. If it had still been in production, the PAF may have gotten it.


Why don't we just get Super Tucanos then? Or make something like that on our own? A turboprop with large fuel capacity and the ability to drop guided munitions, throw in a MAWS and you have the perfect COIN aircraft... Cheap, reliable and low operational costs, plus it would be faster than a gunship, and can land in unprepared terrain, unlike a fighter jet.


Mr.Meap said:


> Why don't we just get Super Tucanos then? Or make something like that on our own? A turboprop with large fuel capacity and the ability to drop guided munitions, throw in a MAWS and you have the perfect COIN aircraft... Cheap, reliable and low operational costs, plus it would be faster than a gunship, and can land in unprepared terrain, unlike a fighter jet.


Basically troops could have 24/7 aerial support, always Oncall.


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## Signalian

313ghazi said:


> Considering we spent all these years fighting insurgents why didn't we ever try getting the A10 warthogs for PAA?
> 
> @Windjammer @PanzerKiel


A-5 could have been an option.


araz said:


> Drones and Helos will remain the main go to's in this role but they will remain prone to attrition in a equally contested arena.


Network centric capability is essential through data link for surveillance, monitoring, tracking, targeting and eliminating targets for all aviation assets sent for a specific mission.

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... the new attack helicopter will come from the first country to post a loan for Pakistan.
> 
> If the US does it tomorrow, then expect to see AH-1Zs. If the Chinese extend their credit line (on top of the loans for VT4, 054A/P, Hangor, etc), then we'll see the Z-10ME. A big reason why the T129 was selected was because the Turks let us pay in installments.


If LINK-17 has been integrated into PAA assets, that would allow helicopters of different types (and UAVs) to operate in conjunction with each other.

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## Shabi1

313ghazi said:


> Considering we spent all these years fighting insurgents why didn't we ever try getting the A10 warthogs for PAA?
> 
> @Windjammer @PanzerKiel





Mr.Meap said:


> Why don't we just get Super Tucanos then? Or make something like that on our own? A turboprop with large fuel capacity and the ability to drop guided munitions, throw in a MAWS and you have the perfect COIN aircraft... Cheap, reliable and low operational costs, plus it would be faster than a gunship, and can land in unprepared terrain, unlike a fighter jet.
> 
> Basically troops could have 24/7 aerial support, always Oncall.


For COIN if UCAV drones available, they are better. If there is ever a need for a gunship, CN-295s gunship variant like the ones Jordan is getting would be worth a look but Pakistan in my opinion is adequately covered for COIN. So no need for additional platforms.

Azerbaijan-Armenia war has proven effectiveness of armed drones.

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## Signalian

Mr.Meap said:


> Though Mushaks are more for observation role I think


MFI-17 and K-8, both can carry weapons and ordnance.

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## Moon

Shabi1 said:


> For COIN if UCAV drones available, they are better


I'd say otherwise, drones are good and all, but don't expect any sane nation to drop a guided munition worth thousands of dollars on some rag-tag terrorist, we need long endurance UAVs for ISTAR, the actual attack should come from on-call COIN aircrafts, a gun strafe or a salvo of unguided rockets is more than enough, keeping capability to drop PGMs is a plus, but needs only to be used on HVTs.


Signalian said:


> A-5 could have been an option


A-5s were too unreliable, short-legged and crude. You need something that can stay in the air for 5-7 hours. Plus jets aren't meant to take off or land on unprepared runways.


Signalian said:


> MFI-17 and K-8, both can carry weapons and ordnance.


I haven't seen them use it though, just showcases.


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## Signalian

Mr.Meap said:


> A-5s were too unreliable, short-legged and crude. You need something that can stay in the air for 5-7 hours. Plus jets aren't meant to take off or land on unprepared runways.


None of the issues you mentioned would have hampered any COIN Ops.
and same for the Indian armor threat entering Pakistan's deserts.

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## Moon

Signalian said:


> None of the issues you mentioned would have hampered any COIN Ops.
> and same for the Indian armor threat entering Pakistan's deserts.


A-5s were very unreliable, they've literally crashed during Parades. Plus you'd need to be loiter in the air for long periods of time, to monitor terrorist movement. Furthermore having a twin-engined jet aircraft becomes a maintenance nightmare (spare parts aren't being produced, crew is untrained, especially on unprepared airfields).
And I don't think A-5s had EO/IR capability, nor had MFDs, or the ability to transmit real-time data to on-ground station.

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## Shabi1

Mr.Meap said:


> I'd say otherwise, drones are good and all, but don't expect any sane nation to drop a guided munition worth thousands of dollars on some rag-tag terrorist, we need long endurance UAVs for ISTAR, the actual attack should come from on-call COIN aircrafts, a gun strafe or a salvo of unguided rockets is more than enough, keeping capability to drop PGMs is a plus, but needs only to be used on HVTs.
> 
> A-5s were too unreliable, short-legged and crude. You need something that can stay in the air for 5-7 hours. Plus jets aren't meant to take off or land on unprepared runways.
> 
> I haven't seen them use it though, just showcases.


If you consider flight time expense drones are the cheapest to fly and they carry good optics. COIN is more about observation and precision strike. 

If you need to hit them hard with cheap rockets and guns that is Close Air Support territory, for that purpose we have Helo gunships AH-1/MI-35/Fennec/T-129 and attack jets F-7PG/Mirage/JF-17. 

Armed turbo prop gunships are cheaper alternatives/compromises if you are unable to get UCAVs and cant afford attack jets. A in between a Gunship helo and a attack jet. Jack of all, master of non.

For Pakistan's western border combination of F-7PGs, Mi-35s and drones should be enough.


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## iLION12345_1

I think a distinction needs to be made here between CAS and precision ground strikes.

CAS is close air support, think of it as aircraft providing support to troops actively fighting on the ground, Pakistan does not need a dedicated CAS jet/plane since there have been few instances where such a bird would be anymore useful than the large fleet of attack helicopters PAA operates, which have been our principal tool for CAS in the WoT. In the mountainous and forest terrain of these areas, helicopters work better for CAS than jet aircraft anyways as they can engage for longer without having to reposition for approach after every run. UAVs can also be used for close air support, but they lack machine guns and cannot carry the same amount of ordinance to stay and help for long, hence they’re better for precision strikes.

Precision ground strikes are different from CAS, they are generally used to take out a pre-determined target like a bunker, a gathering of enemies, a base, so on. A proper fighter jet is the best tool for precision ground strikes, something like a mirage, an F-16 or a JF-17 is much better suited to such strikes than a dedicated CAS plane like A-10 due to their speed and advanced targeting equipment, even a UAV is better off in that case as it’s a much cheaper solution for the same result. For precision strikes Pakistan has used both its fighters and UCAVs in the war on terror.

Leaving COIN ops which are now much rarer in Pakistan than they were in the 2000s and 2010s, in conventional warfare Pakistan would still benefit more from putting money into its attack helicopter fleet for CAS (as we are clearly doing) than it would trying to buy a dedicated CAS aircraft, as modern multi role fighter jets are taking over the dedicated CAS aircraft role around the world anyways. UCAVs are not as useful for any kind of strike in a balanced conventional war (balanced as in one side doesn’t have overwhelming air superiority) as they are defenseless against fighter aircraft, so fighter jets would be used for precision strikes and sometimes CAS. While helicopters would be used for CAS.


Anything the PA buys it needs to justify its usage for both COIN and conventional Ops, otherwise it risks going bankrupt making separate purchases for both, that’s why stuff like gunships and dedicated CAS aircraft are off the cards. You also have to consider the countries doctrine and how these things fit into it, if at all. Something like the K8 or MFI-395, or even something like a super Tucano can carry armaments and might be cheaper to use, but is it actually going to be cheaper in the long run when they will need to retrain crews, get more of said aircraft to use for attack roles because the current ones are used for training and then also have to deal with the fact that they cannot do strikes as quickly and as precisely as proper fighters as they cannot carry as much ordinance. it’s little things like these that end up effecting the decisions that are made at the end of the day. We have to look at what will be useful and cost effective from the perspective of the Pakistani armed forces, not from the perspective of another country that may have bought and used a similar system.

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## Signalian

Mr.Meap said:


> A-5s were very unreliable, they've literally crashed during Parades. Plus you'd need to be loiter in the air for long periods of time, to monitor terrorist movement. Furthermore having a twin-engined jet aircraft becomes a maintenance nightmare (spare parts aren't being produced, crew is untrained, especially on unprepared airfields).
> And I don't think A-5s had EO/IR capability, nor had MFDs, or the ability to transmit real-time data to on-ground station.


Loitering is done by UAV which identifies targets and then strike aircraft or gunship can be sent in. PAA will be getting twin engine gunships while A-5 would have been a transition from PAF setup.

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## Moon

Signalian said:


> Loitering is done by UAV which identifies targets and then strike aircraft or gunship can be sent in. PAA will be getting twin engine gunships while A-5 would have been a transition from PAF setup.


By loitering I mean remaining airborne for long periods of time, especially for SOFs, eg: SSG operations. Either way, A-5s are too old.


Shabi1 said:


> If you consider flight time expense drones are the cheapest to fly and they carry good optics. COIN is more about observation and precision strike.
> 
> If you need to hit them hard with cheap rockets and guns that is Close Air Support territory, for that purpose we have Helo gunships AH-1/MI-35/Fennec/T-129 and attack jets F-7PG/Mirage/JF-17.
> 
> Armed turbo prop gunships are cheaper alternatives/compromises if you are unable to get UCAVs and cant afford attack jets. A in between a Gunship helo and a attack jet. Jack of all, master of non.
> 
> For Pakistan's western border combination of F-7PGs, Mi-35s and drones should be enough.


Problem is, gunships are extremely vulnerable in mountainous terrain, especially to small arms fire. They're also slow (slower than an aircraft), cost a lot more per sortie. And don't have a lot of endurance. Plus they need a lot more maintenance.


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## prothought

Signalian said:


> A-5 could have been an option.
> 
> Network centric capability is essential through data link for surveillance, monitoring, tracking, targeting and eliminating targets for all aviation assets sent for a specific mission.





Signalian said:


> If LINK-17 has been integrated into PAA assets, that would allow helicopters of different types (and UAVs) to operate in conjunction with each other.


Pardon me for my novice and possibly irrelevant question. If we have netcentric capabilities and our UAVs are a part of that, why don’t (or can’t) we monitor North Waziristan and sensitive parts of Balochistan round the clock by using that capability. I mean why don’t we target the terrorists when they are setting up IEDs, going to their hide-outs, and/or crossing the border with Afghanistan/Iran. I think only a dozen or so UAVs need to be in the air streaming in live 24/7. That puzzles me a lot why we have to do IBOs rather than getting those terrorists when they are out and exposed.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Mr.Meap said:


> Why don't we just get Super Tucanos then? Or make something like that on our own? A turboprop with large fuel capacity and the ability to drop guided munitions, throw in a MAWS and you have the perfect COIN aircraft... Cheap, reliable and low operational costs, plus it would be faster than a gunship, and can land in unprepared terrain, unlike a fighter jet.
> 
> Basically troops could have 24/7 aerial support, always Oncall.


The PAF did look at the Hurkus-C, but ultimately, the cost of maintaining so few specialized aircraft wasn't worth it. However, an AMX-type aircraft could at least support a conventional warfare role too (e.g., deploy SOWs, support anti-armour operations, provide cover to the Army, etc).

I think one aspect that gets lost is the gap Pressler caused to the PAF. Pre-1990, the PAF was thinking of only two things: 'multi-role fighter' (F-16) and 'attack' (Mirage III/5 and A-5). In my opinion, the ultimate vision was to build the F-16 fleet to 150-180 by 2005-ish (pre-Pressler). This was the approach every big F-16 operator -- i.e., Turkey, Egypt, Greece, Netherlands, Taiwan, etc -- was taking, it wasn't different for us except we would've taken longer to get to that point.

With the F-16s settling the multi-role fighter issue in spades, the PAF would've had the luxury to tinker with niche aircraft for the attack role. You wouldn't have to worry about your most vital needs as the F-16 would've covered 90% of them. This is where something like the AMX would've fit really well, or even the Tornado or JH-7A @SQ8

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## Raja Porus

Helicopters have EW, Recce,network centric capability and survivability in a contested space (both EW and AD wise) that an A10 or tucano can only dream of

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## Moon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF did look at the Hurkus-C, but ultimately, the cost of maintaining so few specialized aircraft wasn't worth it. However, an AMX-type aircraft could at least support a conventional warfare role too (e.g., deploy SOWs, support anti-armour operations, provide cover to the Army, etc).
> 
> I think one aspect that gets lost is the gap Pressler caused to the PAF. Pre-1990, the PAF was thinking of only two things: 'multi-role fighter' (F-16) and 'attack' (Mirage III/5 and A-5). In my opinion, the ultimate vision was to build the F-16 fleet to 150-180 by 2005-ish (pre-Pressler). This was the approach every big F-16 operator -- i.e., Turkey, Egypt, Greece, Netherlands, Taiwan, etc -- was taking, it wasn't different for us except we would've taken longer to get to that point.
> 
> With the F-16s settling the multi-role fighter issue in spades, the PAF would've had the luxury to tinker with niche aircraft for the attack role. You wouldn't have to worry about your most vital needs as the F-16 would've covered 90% of them. This is where something like the AMX would've fit really well, or even the Tornado or JH-7A @SQ8


Seems F-16s have caused more disruption in PAF than even Indians. It seems to be at the center for all of PAF's shortcomings. 
But what I'm saying is, having an aircraft that has a low per-sortie cost could encourage leaders into using it more often, especially in providing troops backup during long firefights (case in point 2 weeks back in Marwar)


Desert Fox 1 said:


> Helicopters have EW, Recce,network centric capability and survivability in a contested space (both EW and AD wise) that an A10 or tucano can only dream of


How does a slow helicopter have a higher survivability rate than a nimble turboprop? I have poor understanding about helis in general, are they not more expensive to maintain, fly and repair and whatnot? How are they better than a turboprop in providing ground support? especially in case of Bln?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Mr.Meap said:


> Seems F-16s have caused more disruption in PAF than even Indians. It seems to be at the center for all of PAF's shortcomings.
> But what I'm saying is, having an aircraft that has a low per-sortie cost could encourage leaders into using it more often, especially in providing troops backup during long firefights (case in point 2 weeks back in Marwar)


That's the promise of turboprop aircraft, for sure, but it's not the only cost factor.

There's also a cost to maintaining that attack unit. In the PAF's case, the potential requirement for such a plane was at most 12 aircraft, but it'd need an entire support infrastructure to keep it plus its subsystems (e.g., EO/IR turret, air-to-surface munitions, etc) running.

It would've worked out if the PAF opted for the same turboprop plane for its trainer requirements, but it has no immediate plan to replace the T-37. It might look into it again in a few years, but only after it settles some other (i.e., external threat-focused) matters first.

...and yea, missing out on the F-16s was a huge blow. Like a lot of air forces, the PAF had staked its future on it, but it was the PAF that actually had to suffer through the "what if" scenario due to Pressler.

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## Moon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That's the promise of turboprop aircraft, for sure, but it's not the only cost factor.
> 
> There's also a cost to maintaining that attack unit. In the PAF's case, the potential requirement for such a plane was at most 12 aircraft, but it'd need an entire support infrastructure to keep it plus its subsystems (e.g., EO/IR turret, air-to-surface munitions, etc) running.
> 
> It would've worked out if the PAF opted for the same turboprop plane for its trainer requirements, but it has no immediate plan to replace the T-37. It might look into it again in a few years, but only after it settles some other (i.e., external threat-focused) matters first.
> 
> ...and yea, missing out on the F-16s was a huge blow. Like a lot of air forces, the PAF had staked its future on it, but it was the PAF that actually had to suffer through the "what if" scenario due to Pressler.


Man that's disappointing, so no relief in sight for FC and Troops on Western border 
.
Especially since Afghanistan is going to burn hot after Americans leave. Terrorists have already got their hands on bleeding edge equipment and we are yet to develop network centric capabilities, nor do we have the ability to conduct long-term surveillance in the vastness of Balochistan.
If something like HAPS could make it into PAA, that'd greatly boost its ISTAR capabilities.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Mr.Meap said:


> Man that's disappointing, so no relief in sight for FC and Troops on Western border
> .
> Especially since Afghanistan is going to burn hot after Americans leave. Terrorists have already got their hands on bleeding edge equipment and we are yet to develop network centric capabilities, nor do we have the ability to conduct long-term surveillance in the vastness of Balochistan.
> If something like HAPS could make it into PAA, that'd greatly boost its ISTAR capabilities.


I'll say this ... thought the fuel costs are much more, the JF-17 is relatively affordable to fly. The PAF can -- and likely will -- start employing the Thunder in the CT/COIN role. They have the ASELPOD and LGBs, though they might benefit from a laser-guided AGM too (e.g., YJ-9E). So, if the higher-ups need air power, they'll get it, and it won't break the PAF's bank. The real question is: are they escalating this issue fast enough?

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF did look at the Hurkus-C, but ultimately, the cost of maintaining so few specialized aircraft wasn't worth it. However, an AMX-type aircraft could at least support a conventional warfare role too (e.g., deploy SOWs, support anti-armour operations, provide cover to the Army, etc).
> 
> I think one aspect that gets lost is the gap Pressler caused to the PAF. Pre-1990, the PAF was thinking of only two things: 'multi-role fighter' (F-16) and 'attack' (Mirage III/5 and A-5). In my opinion, the ultimate vision was to build the F-16 fleet to 150-180 by 2005-ish (pre-Pressler). This was the approach every big F-16 operator -- i.e., Turkey, Egypt, Greece, Netherlands, Taiwan, etc -- was taking, it wasn't different for us except we would've taken longer to get to that point.
> 
> With the F-16s settling the multi-role fighter issue in spades, the PAF would've had the luxury to tinker with niche aircraft for the attack role. You wouldn't have to worry about your most vital needs as the F-16 would've covered 90% of them. This is where something like the AMX would've fit really well, or even the Tornado or JH-7A @SQ8


I think there was high fixation with multirole aircraft capable of dominating an air fight from the east. As far as getting a CAS type, the focus was to throw in the least amount of effort for what the threat was - so in the 90’s it was known the Indians were struggling with battlefield AD so a simple avionics day bomber like the Mirage or the A-5 with a nightlight for night support would work as well.

As far as today is concerned, the effectiveness of the Karabakh conflict has garnered attention everywhere. If you can keep air superiority over an area then 50 drones costing a $2 million each and armed with 6 ATGMs can go past and devastate entire battlegroups and frustrate an enemy to no end. Sa17 replicas, Pantsirs or other LoMAD is pretty helpless in trying to get all these buzzing flies off it. Finally, even if they all get shot down you’ve barely lost a Rafale in costs while probably causing more damage and over a much wider area in return.

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## araz

SQ8 said:


> I think there was high fixation with multirole aircraft capable of dominating an air fight from the east. As far as getting a CAS type, the focus was to throw in the least amount of effort for what the threat was - so in the 90’s it was known the Indians were struggling with battlefield AD so a simple avionics day bomber like the Mirage or the A-5 with a nightlight for night support would work as well.
> 
> As far as today is concerned, the effectiveness of the Karabakh conflict has garnered attention everywhere. If you can keep air superiority over an area then 50 drones costing a $2 million each and armed with 6 ATGMs can go past and devastate entire battlegroups and frustrate an enemy to no end. Sa17 replicas, Pantsirs or other LoMAD is pretty helpless in trying to get all these buzzing flies off it. Finally, even if they all get shot down you’ve barely lost a Rafale in costs while probably causing more damage and over a much wider area in return.


Provided the unmanned UCAVs canbe maneouverd into and out of a dense field blocking signal transmission unmanned missions will always be more cheaper than manned ones. I suspect the recent drive of PAF towards drones is a testment to that. The mirages were only being used as we had very little in the eay of alternates and I suspect PAF still feels we have a need for such a platform as they are looking to retain at least some M3/5s till the 2025-30 window.
Regards
A

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## Raja Porus

araz said:


> Provided the unmanned UCAVs canbe maneouverd into and out of a dense field blocking signal transmission


Yes sir, that is the most serious threat to UCAVs, more serious than any physical or kinetic AD. EMP, RF jamming and spoofing may prevent the use of UCAVs in a contested environment until any countermeasure is developed. In this case manned aircrafts may seem to be better but as shown on 27Feb, if the comms between the ground control and a human pilot is jammed then that aircraft is also as good as dead. The pilot may be able to bring back the aircraft but the same can be done by the UAV if we programme it to RTB when it can't establish a link with its pilot on the ground.

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## Signalian

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Yes sir, that is the most serious threat to UCAVs, more serious than any physical or kinetic AD. EMP, RF jamming and spoofing may prevent the use of UCAVs in a contested environment until any countermeasure is developed. In this case manned aircrafts may seem to be better but as shown on 27Feb, if the comms between the ground control and a human pilot is jammed then that aircraft is also as good as dead. The pilot may be able to bring back the aircraft but the same can be done by the UAV if we programme it to RTB when it can't establish a link with its pilot on the ground.


Data links are designed to have secure and redundant communication processes for data transmission.

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## Moon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF can -- and likely will -- start employing the Thunder in the CT/COIN role


How many sorties can PAF do with the Thunder in a month? Without breaking bank? I'm talking complete ground support, for a 5-6 hour engagement? My idea is that the troops have immediate air support, a plane always flying above them, waiting for a call, or preemptively striking militant caves and whatnot, I'm talking thousands of flight hours, PAF would go bankrupt trying to pull something like this without turboprops.


SQ8 said:


> Karabakh conflict


Karabakh was a target rich region, lots of troop movement, lots of tanks, lots of targets. Bln is exactly the opposite. You have to wait for Ts to pop up, before you can whack them.

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## Aamir Hussain

The fight between Azerbaijan and Armenia should be viewed in perspective. Armenia did not have an air force to contest air dominance of Azeri forces. 

UCAV's/MALE's etc. and similar stuff is useful when one has complete air dominance of the Battlefield.

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## Scorpiooo

Mr.Meap said:


> My idea is that the troops have immediate air support, a plane always flying above them, waiting for a call, or preemptively striking militant caves and whatnot, I'm talking thousands of flight hours, PAF would go bankrupt trying to pull something like this without turboprops.
> .



PAF/PAA can adopt something similar to *Air Tractor AT-802, *for such use, if saving flyaway cost is the issue

*







*

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## GriffinsRule

I had created a thread back in 2018 about the usefulness of something like the Calidus B-250. It offers greater range, endurance and weapon load then the Tucano, Hurkus and similar turboprops.






Potential turbo-prop for PAF - Calidus B-250


I have been a strong proponent of the idea that PA and PAF could have effectively used a Embraer Tucano type of an aircraft to provide CAS, precision night attack capability, and recon/intel gathering missions. While one could argue that the Tucano had too many Israeli origin equipment (not that...



defence.pk













Calidus B-250 - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





However, most members were against the idea or thought UACs and Mushshaks could do a better job. The results however are in front of everyone.

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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> How many sorties can PAF do with the Thunder in a month? Without breaking bank? I'm talking complete ground support, for a 5-6 hour engagement? My idea is that the troops have immediate air support, a plane always flying above them, waiting for a call, or preemptively striking militant caves and whatnot, I'm talking thousands of flight hours, PAF would go bankrupt trying to pull something like this without turboprops.
> 
> Karabakh was a target rich region, lots of troop movement, lots of tanks, lots of targets. Bln is exactly the opposite. You have to wait for Ts to pop up, before you can whack them.


Well you could use them when a convoy or a checkpost is attacked but mostly the terrorists attack lone and under manned posts.By the time the turboprops reach there the terrorists will already be gone considering they are highly mobile(use of motorcycles).


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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> Well you could use them when a convoy or a checkpost is attacked but mostly the terrorists attack lone and under manned posts.By the time the turboprops reach there the terrorists will already be gone considering they are highly mobile(use of motorcycles).


I mean the last major attack happened 80km from Quetta and lasted "several hours", a pair of COIN aircraft could've easily conduct a sortie in that time frame.
Furthermore a squadron or two posted across Balochistan could easily cover the entire province. The can also provide serious fire power for cross border retaliation.


Scorpiooo said:


> PAF/PAA can adopt something similar to *Air Tractor AT-802, *for such use, if saving flyaway cost is the issue
> 
> *
> View attachment 753734
> View attachment 753735
> *


It has EO/IR turret, low operational costs. It's perfect, just needs a glass canopy for better visuals, but yeah better than nothing.


Sifar zero said:


> Well you could use them when a convoy or a checkpost is attacked but mostly the terrorists attack lone and under manned posts.By the time the turboprops reach there the terrorists will already be gone considering they are highly mobile(use of motorcycles).


Surveillance of large areas of Balochistan needs to be done, things like High Altitude Pseudo Satellites, tethered balloons, need to be used to at least have a track and trace capability, so you'd at least know what or who hit you, above all know where they went.

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## Vapnope

You don't need planes or helicopters for CAS against raid parties of Baluch militants. You need surveillance drones and ground intel to engage them from your pickets and posts. Moreover there is a need of quick reaction force in case of emergency.

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## SQ8

Mr.Meap said:


> How many sorties can PAF do with the Thunder in a month? Without breaking bank? I'm talking complete ground support, for a 5-6 hour engagement? My idea is that the troops have immediate air support, a plane always flying above them, waiting for a call, or preemptively striking militant caves and whatnot, I'm talking thousands of flight hours, PAF would go bankrupt trying to pull something like this without turboprops.
> 
> Karabakh was a target rich region, lots of troop movement, lots of tanks, lots of targets. Bln is exactly the opposite. You have to wait for Ts to pop up, before you can whack them.


It wouldn’t matter either way - the loitering time alone lets you sustain a constant UAV presence for a week without undue costs if needed.

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## Blacklight

@ali_raza @PanzerKiel @HRK @LeGenD @The Eagle

Interesting history of Pumas with PAA

When first ordered for Pakistan, the Pumas were destined for PAF, but PAA stepped in and took over.

In 1973 on a ferry flight from France, the first a/c flown by Lt.Col. Tirmizi stopped in Jordan, where King Hussein flew it for 30 mins. This was a VIP helo. 

The first combat Puma landed on 23rd July 1977, from the initial batch of 30.





Ferry Route for Combat Pumas





Chief of Army Staff General Tikka Khan with Lieutenant General Zia on his right

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> @ali_raza @PanzerKiel @HRK @LeGenD @The Eagle
> 
> Interesting history of Pumas with PAA
> 
> When first ordered for Pakistan, the Pumas were destined for PAF, but PAA stepped in and took over.
> 
> In 1973 on a ferry flight from France, the first a/c flown by Lt.Col. Tirmizi stopped in Jordan, where King Hussein flew it for 30 mins. This was a VIP helo.
> 
> The first combat Puma landed on 23rd July 1977, from the initial batch of 30.
> 
> View attachment 753804
> 
> Ferry Route for Combat Pumas
> 
> View attachment 753803
> 
> Chief of Army Staff General Tikka Khan with Lieutenant General Zia on his right


waao great history

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## Blacklight

ali_raza said:


> waao great history


There is more, how in 1979 it was called in to evacuate civilians from the American Embassy, but that's for another day.

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## Moon

SQ8 said:


> It wouldn’t matter either way - the loitering time alone lets you sustain a constant UAV presence for a week without undue costs if needed.


Then why aren't we using them?


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## HRK

Blacklight said:


> @ali_raza @PanzerKiel @HRK @LeGenD @The Eagle
> 
> Interesting history of Pumas with PAA
> 
> When first ordered for Pakistan, the Pumas were destined for PAF, but PAA stepped in and took over.
> 
> In 1973 on a ferry flight from France, the first a/c flown by Lt.Col. Tirmizi stopped in Jordan, where King Hussein flew it for 30 mins. This was a VIP helo.
> 
> The first combat Puma landed on 23rd July 1977, from the initial batch of 30.
> 
> View attachment 753804
> 
> Ferry Route for Combat Pumas
> 
> View attachment 753803
> 
> Chief of Army Staff General Tikka Khan with Lieutenant General Zia on his right


a not only good but a rare share ....

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

SQ8 said:


> As far as today is concerned, the effectiveness of the Karabakh conflict has garnered attention everywhere. If you can keep air superiority over an area then 50 drones costing a $2 million each and armed with 6 ATGMs can go past and devastate entire battlegroups and frustrate an enemy to no end. Sa17 replicas, Pantsirs or other LoMAD is pretty helpless in trying to get all these buzzing flies off it. Finally, even if they all get shot down you’ve barely lost a Rafale in costs while probably causing more damage and over a much wider area in return.


Plus no pilot training costs....


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## SQ8

Mr.Meap said:


> Then why aren't we using them?


Inconsistent doctrines and lack of stakeholder buy in for such capability. Unable to see value proposition vis-a-vis perception of threat. Finally, vested interests in procurement with active and retd personnel along with businessmen and bureaucrats.

Just because an idea is good or doable doesn’t mean the Pakistani military will do it. Ive said on many topics and on many occasions: Pakistanis will defeat Pakistan(as they have before) long before an India, Israel, Terrorist, USA, Bhutan, timbuktoo or penguins ever get around to it.

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## Sifar zero

Y


Mr.Meap said:


> I mean the last major attack happened 80km from Quetta and lasted "several hours", a pair of COIN aircraft could've easily conduct a sortie in that time frame.
> Furthermore a squadron or two posted across Balochistan could easily cover the entire province. The can also provide serious fire power for cross border retaliation.
> 
> It has EO/IR turret, low operational costs. It's perfect, just needs a glass canopy for better visuals, but yeah better than nothing.
> 
> Surveillance of large areas of Balochistan needs to be done, things like High Altitude Pseudo Satellites, tethered balloons, need to be used to at least have a track and trace capability, so you'd at least know what or who hit you, above all know where they went.


Well you are right but who will tell this to our GHQ walay uncles.


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## Moon

SQ8 said:


> Inconsistent doctrines and lack of stakeholder buy in for such capability. Unable to see value proposition vis-a-vis perception of threat. Finally, vested interests in procurement with active and retd personnel along with businessmen and bureaucrats.
> 
> Just because an idea is good or doable doesn’t mean the Pakistani military will do it. Ive said on many topics and on many occasions: Pakistanis will defeat Pakistan(as they have before) long before an India, Israel, Terrorist, USA, Bhutan, timbuktoo or penguins ever get around to it.


I wish there was a segment in the upper echelons which focused on development and procurement of more cost-effective and disruptive technologies, focused on reducing troop casualties and fatigue.
Americans spent 20 years in Afghanistan, lost 6000+ troops, you might think they failed, but they achieved all of their objectives, inflicted heavy damage, lost very few soldiers, and now that they're leaving the Taliban don't even dare to attack them. 
I want a mindset where we focus on inflicting heavy casualties and take little to none ourselves, just having better surveillance can do half of that, here we don't monitor routes FC takes to see if someone has placed an IED or something, you need something like a CCTV in the sky, can stay up very long, passively monitor routes, check posts and at least we'll know where the terrorists come from, where they go and where they hide.


Sifar zero said:


> Y
> 
> Well you are right but who will tell this to our GHQ walay uncles.


We have so many insiders here, maybe we can get them to do it for us, pen a letter maybe

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Inconsistent doctrines and lack of stakeholder buy in for such capability. Unable to see value proposition vis-a-vis perception of threat. Finally, vested interests in procurement with active and retd personnel along with businessmen and bureaucrats.
> 
> Just because an idea is good or doable doesn’t mean the Pakistani military will do it. Ive said on many topics and on many occasions: Pakistanis will defeat Pakistan(as they have before) long before an India, Israel, Terrorist, USA, Bhutan, timbuktoo or penguins ever get around to it.


In the late 1940s, the PAF was interested in license building US aircraft. The UK stepped in, expectedly, but they were actually open to licensing production to Pakistan. They only cautioned that it would be costly, and that waiting for a newer gen design would be wise instead of biting up an existing aircraft. However, we did not take them up on the offer. Interest in the idea of even building fighters fell out entirely once US aid entered the equation. 

Based on this account, I think programs in Pakistan fall through "just because" -- i.e., lack of vision, lack of accountability, lack of initiative, etc. The PN MILGEM program, for example, could've simply fallen into mediocrity, but it seems the NHQ (or other actors) got a hold of it and steered it to the right track.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In the late 1940s, the PAF was interested in license building US aircraft. The UK stepped in, expectedly, but they were actually open to licensing production to Pakistan. They only cautioned that it would be costly, and that waiting for a newer gen design would be wise instead of biting up an existing aircraft. However, we did not take them up on the offer. Interest in the idea of even building fighters fell out entirely once US aid entered the equation.
> 
> Based on this account, I think programs in Pakistan fall through "just because" -- i.e., lack of vision, lack of accountability, lack of initiative, etc. The PN MILGEM program, for example, could've simply fallen into mediocrity, but it seems the NHQ (or other actors) got a hold of it and steered it to the right track.


The brits tried to milk both India and Pakistan (and did for a while with those useless attackers and other equipment)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> The brits tried to milk both India and Pakistan (and did for a while with those useless attackers and other equipment)


If not for 1965, I think we possibly could've become an F-5 manufacturer. The US slotted in every F-86 user for the F-5, I imagine we were included on the list (and we sent pilots to Turkey for familiarization too). Fay-Panch Tigger

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In the late 1940s, the PAF was interested in license building US aircraft. The UK stepped in, expectedly, but they were actually open to licensing production to Pakistan. They only cautioned that it would be costly, and that waiting for a newer gen design would be wise instead of biting up an existing aircraft. However, we did not take them up on the offer. Interest in the idea of even building fighters fell out entirely once US aid entered the equation.
> 
> Based on this account, I think programs in Pakistan fall through "just because" -- i.e., lack of vision, lack of accountability, lack of initiative, etc. The PN MILGEM program, for example, could've simply fallen into mediocrity, but it seems the NHQ (or other actors) got a hold of it and steered it to the right track.


1940s ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> 1940s ?


1947-1949.

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## Nomad40

Blacklight said:


> @ali_raza @PanzerKiel @HRK @LeGenD @The Eagle
> 
> Interesting history of Pumas with PAA
> 
> When first ordered for Pakistan, the Pumas were destined for PAF, but PAA stepped in and took over.
> 
> In 1973 on a ferry flight from France, the first a/c flown by Lt.Col. Tirmizi stopped in Jordan, where King Hussein flew it for 30 mins. This was a VIP helo.
> 
> The first combat Puma landed on 23rd July 1977, from the initial batch of 30.
> 
> View attachment 753804
> 
> Ferry Route for Combat Pumas
> 
> View attachment 753803
> 
> Chief of Army Staff General Tikka Khan with Lieutenant General Zia on his right


Thanks for this!

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## Moon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 1947-1949.


I think it was the P-80 shooting star (or F-84)? I remember hearing a story from one of my relatives, about a businessman from Karachi or Hyderabad who wanted to build aircrafts (not just warplanes) in Pakistan. But PAF went with Supermarine Attackers. Then in 70s nationalisation effectively stopped him from doing anything about it.
Back then the gaps in technology between us and Europe/West weren't as wide as they are today (plus they were desperately in need of allies) ambitiousness could get you very far (Indians with the Marut, Argentinians with Pulquii and Egyptians with HA-300).

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## Blacklight

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Thanks for this!


I will try and find the book on PAA online, and post the link.

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## Blacklight

@_NOBODY_ @mingle @PanzerKiel @ali_raza @HRK @LeGenD @Jf-17 block 3 @Scorpiooo @TOPGUN @Inception-06 @ghazi52 @Caprxl @TsAr @aliyusuf @Mirage Battle Commander @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Gripen9 @GriffinsRule @StormBreaker @Tipu7 @The Accountant @The Eagle @RescueRanger @Goenitz @DHSquare @Path-Finder @Counter-Errorist @Jungibaaz @AgNoStiC MuSliM 

Dear Brothers,

At the bottom is a link from which this book can be downloaded for free, in PDF format. Enjoy!

Best Regards








*History of Pakistan Army Aviation 1947-2007 *

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## Tipu7

I have this book already 😎


Blacklight said:


> @_NOBODY_ @mingle @PanzerKiel @ali_raza @HRK @LeGenD @Jf-17 block 3 @Scorpiooo @TOPGUN @Inception-06 @ghazi52 @Caprxl @TsAr @aliyusuf @Mirage Battle Commander @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Gripen9 @GriffinsRule @StormBreaker @Tipu7 @The Accountant @The Eagle @RescueRanger @Goenitz @DHSquare @Path-Finder @Counter-Errorist @Jungibaaz @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> 
> Dear Brothers,
> 
> At the bottom is a link from which this book can be downloaded for free, in PDF format. Enjoy!
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 754051
> 
> *History of Pakistan Army Aviation 1947-2007 *


, but yet to read. Still, big thanks 👍

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Mr.Meap said:


> I think it was the P-80 shooting star (or F-84)? I remember hearing a story from one of my relatives, about a businessman from Karachi or Hyderabad who wanted to build aircrafts (not just warplanes) in Pakistan. But PAF went with Supermarine Attackers. Then in 70s nationalisation effectively stopped him from doing anything about it.
> Back then the gaps in technology between us and Europe/West weren't as wide as they are today (plus they were desperately in need of allies) ambitiousness could get you very far (Indians with the Marut, Argentinians with Pulquii and Egyptians with HA-300).


Yep, the Supermarine Attackers were a bummer, but even with the UK, the option to manufacture something decent in Pakistan was still there. However, no one within the PAF, Gov't, or private sector followed up.

Now, to their credit, there was an actual economic policy at play at that time and it was working. So, I think they might have avoided arms manufacturing on purpose. I imagine Govt of Pak economists thought it was an inherently inefficient exercise (which is 100% true). The focus was on building industrial competence, and we had investments going into designing and building jigs, shipbuilding, and even nuclear energy.

Finally, US aid was in full-swing. I wouldn't be surprised if there was an expectation to manufacture the F-5 (which the US commissioned as a low-cost replacement for its allies' F-86s). If not F-5, then maybe a vision to eventually design and build a fighter when the industrial capacity was in place.

Remember, the Pakistan of the 1960s was quite different: We had the fiscal resources of two countries (i.e., East and West Pakistan), we had a growing industry base, and growing foreign market access.

So, if there wasn't a cluster eff-up of a human involved, things should work out.

To our misfortune, we got a double hat-trick of cluster eff-ups... ZAB convincing everyone into the 1965 War, ZAB convincing Yahya Khan to clamp down on East Pak, Yahya Khan screwing up E. Pak, ZAB screwing up the economy, and so on.

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## SQ8

A short term solution to onboard UAV capability is to have helis equipped with Burraq or wing loong stations and let them conduct recon and strikes. Even in the interim the aging Cobras could get a cramped cockpit but additional panel to act as recon scouts/controllers for UAV units. Think UAVs equipped with EW systems much as the Azeris did to perform SEAD/DEAD and RECON operations at the FLOT or 20 clicks behind it level controlled by Ah-1Fs sitting behind the friendly side of it and helping clear threats to Z-10s working in the Anti-Tank role.






Blacklight said:


> @_NOBODY_ @mingle @PanzerKiel @ali_raza @HRK @LeGenD @Jf-17 block 3 @Scorpiooo @TOPGUN @Inception-06 @ghazi52 @Caprxl @TsAr @aliyusuf @Mirage Battle Commander @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Gripen9 @GriffinsRule @StormBreaker @Tipu7 @The Accountant @The Eagle @RescueRanger @Goenitz @DHSquare @Path-Finder @Counter-Errorist @Jungibaaz @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> 
> Dear Brothers,
> 
> At the bottom is a link from which this book can be downloaded for free, in PDF format. Enjoy!
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 754051
> 
> *History of Pakistan Army Aviation 1947-2007 *


I wish they would do the next volume - a lot of good tactical changes and ops were done 2007-2015

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## TsAr

Blacklight said:


> @_NOBODY_ @mingle @PanzerKiel @ali_raza @HRK @LeGenD @Jf-17 block 3 @Scorpiooo @TOPGUN @Inception-06 @ghazi52 @Caprxl @TsAr @aliyusuf @Mirage Battle Commander @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Gripen9 @GriffinsRule @StormBreaker @Tipu7 @The Accountant @The Eagle @RescueRanger @Goenitz @DHSquare @Path-Finder @Counter-Errorist @Jungibaaz @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> 
> Dear Brothers,
> 
> At the bottom is a link from which this book can be downloaded for free, in PDF format. Enjoy!
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 754051
> 
> *History of Pakistan Army Aviation 1947-2007 *


Nice share, have already read this book.

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## RescueRanger

Blacklight said:


> @_NOBODY_ @mingle @PanzerKiel @ali_raza @HRK @LeGenD @Jf-17 block 3 @Scorpiooo @TOPGUN @Inception-06 @ghazi52 @Caprxl @TsAr @aliyusuf @Mirage Battle Commander @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Gripen9 @GriffinsRule @StormBreaker @Tipu7 @The Accountant @The Eagle @RescueRanger @Goenitz @DHSquare @Path-Finder @Counter-Errorist @Jungibaaz @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> 
> Dear Brothers,
> 
> At the bottom is a link from which this book can be downloaded for free, in PDF format. Enjoy!
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 754051
> 
> *History of Pakistan Army Aviation 1947-2007 *


Thank you very much, will definitely enjoy this.

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## Moon

SQ8 said:


> A short term solution to onboard UAV capability is to have helis equipped with Burraq or wing loong stations and let them conduct recon and strikes. Even in the interim the aging Cobras could get a cramped cockpit but additional panel to act as recon scouts/controllers for UAV units. Think UAVs equipped with EW systems much as the Azeris did to perform SEAD/DEAD and RECON operations at the FLOT or 20 clicks behind it level controlled by Ah-1Fs sitting behind the friendly side of it and helping clear threats to Z-10s working in the Anti-Tank role.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish they would do the next volume - a lot of good tactical changes and ops were done 2007-2015


Something like Grey Eagle drones, where ground operators can give Apache pilots controls for the drone.



On a completely unrelated note, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can Pakistan get licensed production or homebrew something like a Rooivalk? We have Puma, we have modern designing tools, we can definitely make it happen.


----------



## TOPGUN

Blacklight said:


> @_NOBODY_ @mingle @PanzerKiel @ali_raza @HRK @LeGenD @Jf-17 block 3 @Scorpiooo @TOPGUN @Inception-06 @ghazi52 @Caprxl @TsAr @aliyusuf @Mirage Battle Commander @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Gripen9 @GriffinsRule @StormBreaker @Tipu7 @The Accountant @The Eagle @RescueRanger @Goenitz @DHSquare @Path-Finder @Counter-Errorist @Jungibaaz @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> 
> Dear Brothers,
> 
> At the bottom is a link from which this book can be downloaded for free, in PDF format. Enjoy!
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 754051
> 
> *History of Pakistan Army Aviation 1947-2007 *



Thank you sir really enjoyed it

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## Inception-06

Blacklight said:


> @_NOBODY_ @mingle @PanzerKiel @ali_raza @HRK @LeGenD @Jf-17 block 3 @Scorpiooo @TOPGUN @Inception-06 @ghazi52 @Caprxl @TsAr @aliyusuf @Mirage Battle Commander @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Gripen9 @GriffinsRule @StormBreaker @Tipu7 @The Accountant @The Eagle @RescueRanger @Goenitz @DHSquare @Path-Finder @Counter-Errorist @Jungibaaz @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> 
> Dear Brothers,
> 
> At the bottom is a link from which this book can be downloaded for free, in PDF format. Enjoy!
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 754051
> 
> *History of Pakistan Army Aviation 1947-2007 *



Thanks, for tagging, I will check it out.

regards

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## Sifar zero

Mi 35 blowing up terrorists after they tried to attack an army convoy in Balochistan.

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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> Mi 35 blowing up terrorists after they tried to attack an army convoy in Balochistan.
> View attachment 754308


I have so many questions, firstly how old is this video? Secondly who shot it? Thirdly how many terrorists were killed? Lastly where is this from (region)?


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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> I have so many questions, firstly how old is this video? Secondly who shot it? Thirdly how many terrorists were killed? Lastly where is this from (region)?


This occurred on 13th of June in Margat Zari Wadh area of Quetta.Number of terrorist killed is unknown.Nobody shot at the heli though.

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## Metal 0-1

Sifar zero said:


> Mi 35 blowing up terrorists after they tried to attack an army convoy in Balochistan.
> View attachment 754308


Hell yeah. 

Only if Air Support was available every time FC got ambushed no one had lost his life to bad planning and execution.


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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> This occurred on 13th of June in Margat Zari Wadh area of Quetta.Number of terrorist killed is unknown.Nobody shot at the heli though.


Shot as in footage. Was this posted by a BLA account? the video?


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## Metal 0-1

Sifar zero said:


> This occurred on 13th of June in Margat Zari Wadh area of Quetta.Number of terrorist killed is unknown.Nobody shot at the heli though.


If you find link to this video please share.


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## Sifar zero

Metal 0-1 said:


> If you find link to this video please share.


Wait till the source uploads it I will link it.


Mr.Meap said:


> Shot as in footage. Was this posted by a BLA account? the video?


Yes by BLA.Video has not been uploaded yet.


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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> Yes by BLA.Video has not been uploaded yet


So the gunships didn't do their job :/
Not doing proper surveillance will be the end of us.


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## Primus

Sifar zero said:


> Wait till the source uploads it I will link it.
> 
> Yes by BLA.Video has not been uploaded yet.


Any casualties our side?


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Can't understand why Pak isn't extensively using armed drones! Not using them is a crime....

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## Primus

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Can't understand why Pak isn't extensively using armed drones! Not using them is a crime....


We could potentially see the mass use of them in this upcoming op

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Huffal said:


> We could potentially see the mass use of them in this upcoming op


_Amin Summe Amin...._

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## Sifar zero

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Can't understand why Pak isn't extensively using armed drones! Not using them is a crime....


I think they are being used both in Balochistan on Afg/Pak fence.There are so many hints around heck even an article.

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## Sifar zero

Huffal said:


> Any casualties our side?


Wait I well update info in some time.


----------



## DHSquare

Blacklight said:


> @_NOBODY_ @mingle @PanzerKiel @ali_raza @HRK @LeGenD @Jf-17 block 3 @Scorpiooo @TOPGUN @Inception-06 @ghazi52 @Caprxl @TsAr @aliyusuf @Mirage Battle Commander @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Gripen9 @GriffinsRule @StormBreaker @Tipu7 @The Accountant @The Eagle @RescueRanger @Goenitz @DHSquare @Path-Finder @Counter-Errorist @Jungibaaz @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> 
> Dear Brothers,
> 
> At the bottom is a link from which this book can be downloaded for free, in PDF format. Enjoy!
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 754051
> 
> *History of Pakistan Army Aviation 1947-2007 *


Thnx alot for the tag dear 🤗👍😇

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Mr.Meap said:


> Something like Grey Eagle drones, where ground operators can give Apache pilots controls for the drone.
> 
> 
> 
> On a completely unrelated note, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can Pakistan get licensed production or homebrew something like a Rooivalk? We have Puma, we have modern designing tools, we can definitely make it happen.


IMO ... if we want to do something, we'll need to:

scope the end-product for 15-years from now
work with a trusted partner to design the platform
work with a trusted partner to develop the critical inputs
incrementally work on it for 15 years from scratch
I personally like the idea of developing a 7-ton attack helicopter and 8-ton utility/transport helicopter using the same rotor, transmission and engine platform. However, if we start today, we're going to have to set our vision to at least 15 years out before we're ready for serial production.

This is the best case scenario.

Otherwise, we'll look to import.

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## Primus

Sifar zero said:


> Wait I well update info in some time.


Ok.

I'm praying that they aren't any casualties. At least fatal ones.


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## Super Falcon

Pak should consider TOT with turkish helicopter programme we need to get some knowledge on them building locally helps alot save lot of money and time

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## Caprxl

Blacklight said:


> @_NOBODY_ @mingle @PanzerKiel @ali_raza @HRK @LeGenD @Jf-17 block 3 @Scorpiooo @TOPGUN @Inception-06 @ghazi52 @Caprxl @TsAr @aliyusuf @Mirage Battle Commander @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Gripen9 @GriffinsRule @StormBreaker @Tipu7 @The Accountant @The Eagle @RescueRanger @Goenitz @DHSquare @Path-Finder @Counter-Errorist @Jungibaaz @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> 
> Dear Brothers,
> 
> At the bottom is a link from which this book can be downloaded for free, in PDF format. Enjoy!
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 754051
> 
> *History of Pakistan Army Aviation 1947-2007 *



Many a Thanks Brother, will definitely keep me busy for some good time

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## MIRauf

Metal 0-1 said:


> Hell yeah.
> 
> Only if Air Support was available every time FC got ambushed no one had lost his life to bad planning and execution.


Sorry that is just unrealistic / unattainable even for the US Forces, only way it's possible is to establish a SOP where you shoot anyone / everyone that comes within x meters/yards/feet of the forces ( not a very popular approach, ask the US forces. )

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## ghazi52



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## araz

[/QUOTE]


Super Falcon said:


> Pak should consider TOT with turkish helicopter programme we need to get some knowledge on them building locally helps alot save lot of money and time


I think that was the idea behind T129 purchase. However till such time that Turkey produces its own engines it will not happen now. The experience of T129 has taught us both about the deviousness of the US and the West in safeguarding its interests (I dont blame them as much as I blame the muslims for not having forseen it and acting to circumvent it). So this co operation will have to wait till Turkey procures its own engine or another sanction free engine. Once this is done we can revisit this issue.

A

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This muslim said long time ago 

Chinese Z-10 Helicopter get 30-60 Units (1-2 year turn around)

Join Turkish Helicopter with Long Term mindset on side (4-5 year turn around)

We ain't getting those , Super Cobras either


----------



## Sayfullah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... if we want to do something, we'll need to:
> 
> scope the end-product for 15-years from now
> work with a trusted partner to design the platform
> work with a trusted partner to develop the critical inputs
> incrementally work on it for 15 years from scratch
> I personally like the idea of developing a 7-ton attack helicopter and 8-ton utility/transport helicopter using the same rotor, transmission and engine platform. However, if we start today, we're going to have to set our vision to at least 15 years out before we're ready for serial production.
> 
> This is the best case scenario.
> 
> Otherwise, we'll look to import.



How many years would it take Pakistan to develop helicopter engines for 7 ton attack helicopter and 8 ton utility helicopter and would Pakistan be able to afford to develop its own helicopters? Maybe if we set aside $150 million a year for 15 years for it?

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## Raja Porus

Sifar zero said:


> Mi 35 blowing up terrorists after they tried to attack an army convoy in Balochistan.
> View attachment 754308


Perhaps it was a an army convoy and not an FC one that's why it got the CAS.
I hope that I will be proven wrong.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> How many years would it take Pakistan to develop helicopter engines for 7 ton attack helicopter and 8 ton utility helicopter and would Pakistan be able to afford to develop its own helicopters? Maybe if we set aside $150 million a year for 15 years for it?


We could collaborate with Turkey and/or Ukraine on engines. But yeah, $150 m a year for 15 years would be a start. It's much more than what we're spending now on these programs.

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## Falconless

You need to start somewhere, and if spreading the risk and costs between multiple countries is possible I think it would be Pakistan's best bet!

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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> I think that was the idea behind T129 purchase. However till such time that Turkey produces its own engines it will not happen now. The experience of T129 has taught us both about the deviousness of the US and the West in safeguarding its interests (I dont blame them as much as I blame the muslims for not having forseen it and acting to circumvent it). So this co operation will have to wait till Turkey procures its own engine or another sanction free engine. Once this is done we can revisit this issue.
> 
> A


Or they start using Ukraine, Russian or even Chinese engine for the helicopters then these own engines mature


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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We could collaborate with Turkey and/or Ukraine on engines. But yeah, $150 m a year for 15 years would be a start. It's much more than what we're spending now on these programs.


Since turkey and US agree to secure Kabul airport by Hungry and Turkish forces with Pakistan collaboration good chance US allow 3rd party export T129 engines for Pakistan. Lets see how this pans out

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## Falconless

Let's see


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## Sayfullah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We could collaborate with Turkey and/or Ukraine on engines. But yeah, $150 m a year for 15 years would be a start. It's much more than what we're spending now on these programs.



Is there a way PAC can get private investors to invest in it so they have no funding issues?

I was thinking they could do something like create a new company and for each project they can sell some shares of it so they don’t have funding issues and make a law that they need Pakistan government approval before selling the helicopters to anyone.

So for example for the 7-ton attack helicopter we can give the project a name like shaheen (I know Pakistans missile is named this couldn’t think of another name) and we can sell shares of shaheen project to private investors. 70% of the shares could be private investors while 30% owned by state. For each helicopter sold 70% of the money goes to private investors while 30% to state. Also to attract more investors while we open the project to investors we can give a guarantee amount of helicopters we’ll buy.


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## Falconless

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Is there a way PAC can get private investors to invest in it so they have no funding issues?


PAC is looking to launch an Airliner MRO facility, which should help with the finances.

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## Sayfullah

Falconless said:


> MRO


Whats MRO?

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## Falconless

Maintenance Repair and Overhaul.

Commercial and Military aircraft need to be checked to varying degrees once they reach certain milestones.

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## Sayfullah

Falconless said:


> Maintenance Repair and Overhaul.
> 
> Commercial and Military aircraft need to be checked to varying degrees once they reach certain milestones.



Would this include repairing, maintaining and overhauling Boeing and Airbus airliner aircraft?


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## Falconless

yes, those are commercial airliners

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## Moon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... if we want to do something, we'll need to:
> 
> scope the end-product for 15-years from now
> work with a trusted partner to design the platform
> work with a trusted partner to develop the critical inputs
> incrementally work on it for 15 years from scratch
> I personally like the idea of developing a 7-ton attack helicopter and 8-ton utility/transport helicopter using the same rotor, transmission and engine platform. However, if we start today, we're going to have to set our vision to at least 15 years out before we're ready for serial production.
> 
> This is the best case scenario.
> 
> Otherwise, we'll look to import.


An isolated South Africa in 90s built an attack helicopter, yet we can't? We have modern designing tools, more access to off-the-shelf parts, yet we can't build something like a Rooivalk? It doesn't have to be bleeding edge, just needs to be a bit better in terms of sensors than a Rooivalk?

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## Reichmarshal

mingle said:


> Since turkey and US agree to secure Kabul airport by Hungry and Turkish forces with Pakistan collaboration good chance US allow 3rd party export T129 engines for Pakistan. Lets see how this pans out


T


mingle said:


> Since turkey and US agree to secure Kabul airport by Hungry and Turkish forces with Pakistan collaboration good chance US allow 3rd party export T129 engines for Pakistan. Lets see how this pans out


Taliban have already told Turkey in a very firm way, to not to get involved in any such undertaking as it would not be looked very kindly by them.
In simple terms they have told to f@#k off.


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## Sifar zero

What are the Cessna's used for?


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## Raja Porus

Sifar zero said:


> What are the Cessna's used for?


Light transporter, casualty evacuation qndr may also be for recce


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## mingle

Reichmarshal said:


> T
> 
> Taliban have already told Turkey in a very firm way, to not to get involved in any such undertaking as it would not be looked very kindly by them.
> In simple terms they have told to f@#k off.


Airport is Important especially for diplomats so security will done by turks and hungry


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## Incog_nito

Is Pak Army evaluating any Helicopters from the USA/EU like BlackHawks or EH-101s or NH-90s to add in support for the Mi-17s?


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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> Or they start using Ukraine, Russian or even Chinese engine for the helicopters then these own engines mature


Ukraine seems to have what they want and current fiscal trouble might make it easier for the Turks to gain TOT. They are at the right stage in their developmental cycle to absorb the tech and use it to make and then mature/their own tech. How this will equate to their western roots is difficult to say. Russia and China will not collaborate as they need to prevent another competitor entering the market.
These remain my thoughts on the matter
Regards
A

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## araz

Mr.Meap said:


> An isolated South Africa in 90s built an attack helicopter, yet we can't? We have modern designing tools, more access to off-the-shelf parts, yet we can't build something like a Rooivalk? It doesn't have to be bleeding edge, just needs to be a bit better in terms of sensors than a Rooivalk?


Bhai we do not have the metallurgical base to take this further. One of our main problems is the investment in metallurgy and research. Iam not certain but if ypu investigate this was not the case with SA. 
People here are jimping up and down about our own this or that without realizing the economies of scale requored for these twchnologies to be financially viable. Our need is probably 200 choppers at best in the defence sector with a MAXIMUMof 60-80 ( at a great stretch) attack helicoptors and the rest commercial helos. We just do not have the necessary need to invest in thisi industry. 
Pakistani strategists have looked at Turkey and a couple of other countries to form a base to develop key note technologies. The problem remains Turkish efforts in engine tech have NOT YET borne fruit. It seems our Turk brothers seem to have the same mindset of joint collaboration and are not vary of-sharing work load for mutual gain. If we can rope in either Malaysia or another country we will have the economies of scale to be able to make forrays into this field.
I need not emphasise that in this regard the Chinese cannot be our partners-as they have the necessary industrial base to want to export rather than take Pakistan along with them.
I could be totally wrong but this remains my assessment. I suspect we will see significant moves and collaboration in this direction post 2025 or a bit earlier as key note projects mature in Turkey. 
A

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## ACE OF HEARTS

Pakistan Steel Mills in Karachi is ready to become an industrial base for Metallurgical and Material Sciences, if bought / Run by Fauji Foundation / DHA, as it's success is going to help our armed forces develop the necessary R & D base, for future in house projects.

If you follow the Turkish Model, then, Ataer Holdings, a division of Turkish army pension fund Oyak, is also heavily involved in the Steel Industry in Turkey because such amount of money / investment is not possible from the private sector if you want to own the IP of High Tech Steel products.

Thirdly, State owned enterprises in China, still hold a majority share in the Steel industry in China e.g. Wuhan Iron and Steel Corporation









Wuhan Iron and Steel Corporation - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org

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## Moon

araz said:


> Bhai we do not have the metallurgical base to take this further. One of our main problems is the investment in metallurgy and research. Iam not certain but if ypu investigate this was not the case with SA.
> People here are jimping up and down about our own this or that without realizing the economies of scale requored for these twchnologies to be financially viable. Our need is probably 200 choppers at best in the defence sector with a MAXIMUMof 60-80 ( at a great stretch) attack helicoptors and the rest commercial helos. We just do not have the necessary need to invest in thisi industry.
> Pakistani strategists have looked at Turkey and a couple of other countries to form a base to develop key note technologies. The problem remains Turkish efforts in engine tech have NOT YET borne fruit. It seems our Turk brothers seem to have the same mindset of joint collaboration and are not vary of-sharing work load for mutual gain. If we can rope in either Malaysia or another country we will have the economies of scale to be able to make forrays into this field.
> I need not emphasise that in this regard the Chinese cannot be our partners-as they have the necessary industrial base to want to export rather than take Pakistan along with them.
> I could be totally wrong but this remains my assessment. I suspect we will see significant moves and collaboration in this direction post 2025 or a bit earlier as key note projects mature in Turkey.
> A


I'm not saying to manufacture equipment such as engines or gearboxes, I'm saying we take the South African approach and use existing engines and resources and use them to build a new platform. 
Rooivalk uses Puma internals, and is framed around a South African body. We can easily do it. Off the shelf components such as sights and communication equipment can be purchased.
We already fabricate the airframe for Thunder, it's not like we can't build one for our own homemade Rooivalk.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Mr.Meap said:


> I'm not saying to manufacture equipment such as engines or gearboxes, I'm saying we take the South African approach and use existing engines and resources and use them to build a new platform.
> Rooivalk uses Puma internals, and is framed around a South African body. We can easily do it. Off the shelf components such as sights and communication equipment can be purchased.
> We already fabricate the airframe for Thunder, it's not like we can't build one for our own homemade Rooivalk.


You're on the right track, 100%.

I'm not too worried about economies-of-scale. Yes, our immediate need may top off at 200 utility helicopters, but we shouldn't forget about generations. Thus far, helicopter designs are resilient, so we can replace older domestic helicopters with newer ones. If we account for two generational cycles, we're looking at easily 400 utility helicopters over 40-50 years. We can keep a steady production rate of 10-12 per year.

However, there's no quick roadmap for helicopter development. If we want to do this, we need to start now, and we'll need to wait 10-15 years before we have a serviceable product. Personally, I think that's fine as we can use that design for 40-50 years, if not longer (especially if we design it for the future). 

Working with the Turks and Ukrainians is a good idea. Yes, their tech hasn't borne fruit today, but we are not thinking about today (it's too late for that), but again, what we're going to do in 10-15 years.

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## araz

Mr.Meap said:


> I'm not saying to manufacture equipment such as engines or gearboxes, I'm saying we take the South African approach and use existing engines and resources and use them to build a new platform.
> Rooivalk uses Puma internals, and is framed around a South African body. We can easily do it. Off the shelf components such as sights and communication equipment can be purchased.
> We already fabricate the airframe for Thunder, it's not like we can't build one for our own homemade Rooivalk.


You did not read my post in full. What about the considerations of economy of scale? You are looking at 4-500 units of JFT in its life cycle( including exports) can you say the same about a helicopter? 
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> You did not read my post in full. What about the considerations of economy of scale? You are looking at 4-500 units of JFT in its life cycle( including exports) can you say the same about a helicopter?
> A


A helicopter isn't a one-and-done . One helicopter design can scale across multiple generations. For example, there's the Gen 1 UH-60 which flew in 1974, and today, we have the latest MH-60R. Ditto for UH-1, Mi-8/17, and almost all others. Helicopters are relatively resilient designs.

In Pakistan's case, its 'gen 1' requirements may top off at 200 helicopters, but it can transition into gen 2 so as to replace gen 1, and so on. You can potentially get 2-3 generations out of a single helicopter design, so that 200 could become 400 or even 600 over a 40-50 year period. Moreover, our output will likely average out to 10-12 helicopters per year, so maintaining that over many decades is tenable.

The other aspect is that the subsystems and technologies involved are scalable too. For example, you can reuse the gas turbine tech that goes into the turboshaft in other areas (e.g., a turbofan for UCAVs). Ditto for composite materials, avionics, and so on.

Even in terms of attack helicopters, you don't need to create too much of a separation from the transport helicopter. You can re-use the same rotor and transmission tech, and engine (e.g., the same principle with AH-1Z/UH-1Y, AW149/AW249, etc).

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep.
> 
> Because a helicopter isn't necessarily a one-and-done . One helicopter design can scale across multiple generations. For example, there's the Gen 1 UH-60 which flew in 1974, and today, we have the latest MH-60R. Ditto for UH-1, Mi-8/17, and almost all others. Helicopters are relatively resilient designs.
> 
> In Pakistan's case, its 'gen 1' requirements may top off at 200 helicopters, but it can transition into gen 2 so as to replace gen 1, and so on. You can potentially get 2-3 generations out of a single helicopter design, so that 200 could become 400 or even 600 over a 40-50 year period. Moreover, our output will likely average out to 10-12 helicopters per year, so maintaining that over many decades is tenable.


Have you looked at the outlay, the risk where will you procure engines from and who will supply avionics? You have laid down a requirement of 200 units. With different variants the-dezigns will have to differ even though the base may be the-same. Lastly having had no input into any design and venturing out on one's own without any building experience is asking for failure. Do we really have the 2-4 billion required to set up and mature a design. So it is not only time , finance and labour intensive project, it is a potentially high risk with high sink in costs. Even after all is-said and done we have a project 15 to 20 years down the line do you think we have the staying power to sustain the risk, the financial sink in costs.
What I am proposing instead is a mulyinational collaboration along with Turkey and one other nation to share the cost and the risk and-get a sustainable project with the economy of scale as is warranted. We can have 30-40%work coming down our way and the cost could be down to 500 million to a billion $ but have a doable 0roject at the end of it.
You really seem to have taken up the cause of indegenization without considering the cost implications which we cannot-sustain, the lack of any prior experience,no upto date platform of any significance to take bearings from ( Like the F16s) and at least to me it screams failure ( or at least highly risky). I think we enter one such project in collaboration and then look at going our own way
Regards
A


ACE OF HEARTS said:


> Pakistan Steel Mills in Karachi is ready to become an industrial base for Metallurgical and Material Sciences, if bought / Run by Fauji Foundation / DHA, as it's success is going to help our armed forces develop the necessary R & D base, for future in house projects.
> 
> If you follow the Turkish Model, then, Ataer Holdings, a division of Turkish army pension fund Oyak, is also heavily involved in the Steel Industry in Turkey because such amount of money / investment is not possible from the private sector if you want to own the IP of High Tech Steel products.
> 
> Thirdly, State owned enterprises in China, still hold a majority share in the Steel industry in China e.g. Wuhan Iron and Steel Corporation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wuhan Iron and Steel Corporation - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org


Birader.
There is a-world of difference between a steel mill and a specialized steel mill. I consulted someone once and asked him why we cannot manufacture the required steel at the steel mills. He laughed me out of the room. Later he said we need apecialized steel plants-which are much different and also research into metallurgy which we were just starting at the GIK. 
Honestly speaking I do not know enough about this but someone more knowledgeable should be-able to-shed more light
A

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## Moon

araz said:


> You did not read my post in full. What about the considerations of economy of scale? You are looking at 4-500 units of JFT in its life cycle( including exports) can you say the same about a helicopter?
> A


Well the original Rooivalk was panned to break even at 36 units, so I guess more than that? Furthermore, since many parts would be similar, we'd save a lot of many on maintenance, crew training and what not.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You're on the right track, 100%.
> 
> I'm not too worried about economies-of-scale. Yes, our immediate need may top off at 200 utility helicopters, but we shouldn't forget about generations. Thus far, helicopter designs are resilient, so we can replace older domestic helicopters with newer ones. If we account for two generational cycles, we're looking at easily 400 utility helicopters over 40-50 years. We can keep a steady production rate of 10-12 per year.
> 
> However, there's no quick roadmap for helicopter development. If we want to do this, we need to start now, and we'll need to wait 10-15 years before we have a serviceable product. Personally, I think that's fine as we can use that design for 40-50 years, if not longer (especially if we design it for the future).
> 
> Working with the Turks and Ukrainians is a good idea. Yes, their tech hasn't borne fruit today, but we are not thinking about today (it's too late for that), but again, what we're going to do in 10-15 years.


I think for helicopter development, we can make do with what others have done, I'm sure with the technology we have today, we can easily "reverse engineer" a Rooivalk without even needing to get our hands on one, we know what's inside the bird, we know it's outer dimensions, we also know that the flight characteristics of the Rooivalk are based on the Puma (the length of both the helis are nearly the same, the Rooivalk is a bit longer due to tandem seating). Basically we have the external design and dimensions and the inside components, we only need to come up with a frame to hold it together, for which we have modern design tools, CAD etc...
Maybe I'm being too optimistic but something like this can be done in 5 years max. We can then replace French engines with Z-9 engines from China (which is the same engine being license produced).
Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me in the field could explain this.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Have you looked at the outlay, the risk where will you procure engines from and who will supply avionics? You have laid down a requirement of 200 units. With different variants the-dezigns will have to differ even though the base may be the-same.


We have a chicken-and-egg situation. If not for constant hard-currency outflows, I would argue our helicopter fleets would be larger across the board. So the lack of budget to constantly fund imports probably impacted our ability to field desired or optimal numbers.

Not only that, but the PAA never even got to use the helicopter it considered an optimal workhorse -- i.e., UH-60. You need a design that fulfills 80% of your requirements in order to build a large fleet around it (or else you end up with too many of a specialist type). So, if you're designing an in-house project to build your workhorse, then chances are, you'll have enough of a requirement to support it.



> Lastly having had no input into any design and venturing out on one's own without any building experience is asking for failure. Do we really have the 2-4 billion required to set up and mature a design. So it is not only time , finance and labour intensive project, it is a potentially high risk with high sink in costs. Even after all is-said and done we have a project 15 to 20 years down the line do you think we have the staying power to sustain the risk, the financial sink in costs.


It isn't only a question of how much it costs, but *where that money is going. *If you're spending on local R&D to develop the inputs, then you're spending on education, high-tech capacity (for development, test and integration work), industries that result in critical inputs, and so on.

Let's say the helicopter program fails, you would still have built a large high-tech capacity base to (1) recoup the costs by supporting other programs, especially in other countries that would like to use your IP and (2) reduce the cost of designing and developing a 'second go' of a system later.

This doesn't even account for indirect economic benefits, such as your eco-system venturing into self-funded initiatives. For example, the Pakistani company you asked to design and build composites can export those services abroad, further design its products, and grow. Moreover, these companies (plus their employees) pay taxes, so you get a feedback in additional funding power.



> What I am proposing instead is a mulyinational collaboration along with Turkey and one other nation to share the cost and the risk and-get a sustainable project with the economy of scale as is warranted. We can have 30-40%work coming down our way and the cost could be down to 500 million to a billion $ but have a doable 0roject at the end of it.


Collaboration can be an option, nothing wrong with that approach. However, I wouldn't dismiss taking a project in-house entirely if we execute it correctly.

The point of defence R&D isn't only to build weapons, but to build a country's economy so that it learns to export high-value goods and services. The more you take in-house, the more you control in terms of the work, and the more you benefit in terms of gaining the critical or high-value IP.

Working with Turkey is an option (they've invited us), but they're already working full-steam on their own engine, rotors, transmission, etc. These are all of the critical and most valuable parts of a helicopter. You are not going to get a 30-40% return in workshare unless you help foot the bill for developing those critical inputs. We didn't do that when Turkey actually could've considered an external supporter. They will not let us in on it now that their projects are actually progressing.

The invitation they have for us now (re: helicopters) is on parts manufacturing and maybe assembly and taking up 3rd party maintenance contracts. This is good, but this isn't going to help us take the necessary leap to becoming a proper industrial power. Rather, we need to be thinking like Turkey, i.e., take initiative.



> You really seem to have taken up the cause of indegenization without considering the cost implications which we cannot-sustain, the lack of any prior experience,no upto date platform of any significance to take bearings from ( Like the F16s) and at least to me it screams failure ( or at least highly risky). I think we enter one such project in collaboration and then look at going our own way



"Cost" is a relative term. For someone tied to fiscal books, like a general, it's a zero-sum equation of "if I spend on R&D, I spend less on buying from China." For an economist or public policy expert, "cost" is an investment. The money you put into developing a helicopter is, in actuality, an investment in all of the key industries we need to transform Pakistan from a footnote or joke, to a power with respect and authority.

We need vision and a "how to" mentality to build a country, not a "can't do this, no can't do that, no too expensive" finger-wagging mentality. If we left the nuke project to today's generation, we'd be smuggling hand-me-downs from China -- 100%. How we went from a nation that studied jig manufacturing, contributing to Atoms for Peace, and looking to build fighter planes in the 1950s to the status quo is astounding.

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## Akh1112

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Can't understand why Pak isn't extensively using armed drones! Not using them is a crime....



Pak drone ops arent something that are widely disclosed.

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## Scorpiooo

The current economic conditions and the situation in which we are short of helicopter in all 3 forces , the time and cost to invest in R&D is gone, right now at max PAC get some ToT to assemble helis is big ask, but practical

Doing R&D and Development of local heli now seems very non realistic , may one day in future we can afford this root


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> The current economic conditions and the situation in which we are short of helicopter in all 3 forces , the time and cost to invest in R&D is gone, right now at max PAC get some ToT to assemble helis is big ask, but practical
> 
> Doing R&D and Development of local heli now seems very non realistic , may one day in future we can afford this root


I'll frame it this way. 

It takes USD to import helicopters.

Do we have enough USD?

Ask this question to our planners, and then start shaving funds from one program to fund the other. Or delay the program even more. Or cut your numbers to the minimal in the hopes of adding more later.

None of these are optimal steps, but they all set any hope of domestic programs back by another 5-10 years.

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## fatman17

Ambush from BLA got eliminated by Mi 35
@ForumStrategic
@AIBoardPSF
@DaryaKhan_K https://t.co/wuYx7hWu7W

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## Sifar zero

fatman17 said:


> Ambush from BLA got eliminated by Mi 35
> @ForumStrategic
> @AIBoardPSF
> @DaryaKhan_K https://t.co/wuYx7hWu7W
> View attachment 754812


Well BLA released this poster telling they will release the video but the video was never released guess they were killed before they could.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'll frame it this way.
> 
> It takes USD to import helicopters.
> 
> Do we have enough USD?
> 
> Ask this question to our planners, and then start shaving funds from one program to fund the other. Or delay the program even more. Or cut your numbers to the minimal in the hopes of adding more later.
> 
> None of these are optimal steps, but they all set any hope of domestic programs back by another 5-10 years.


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) do you think R&D give any output with out any actual allocation of funds to R&D not to pockets, secondly we need some technology trasfer or partnership for any actual heli program to kichoff , which agian need heavy investment (which we dont have) ..

After investment of money and time in POF , HIT .. what actual output from both ... just disappointment .. except PAC which indeed done fruitful output.


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## Primus

Sifar zero said:


> Well BLA released this poster telling they will release the video but the video was never released guess they were killed before they could.


OOORAAAH Pak army [emoji123][emoji1191]


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## Moon

Huffal said:


> OOORAAAH Pak army [emoji123][emoji1191]





Sifar zero said:


> Well BLA released this poster telling they will release the video but the video was never released guess they were killed before they could.


Or you know, it could be under edit.....


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## ghazi52



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## Primus

Mr.Meap said:


> Or you know, it could be under edit.....


It must be one hell of an edit then if it's taking this long. Usually editing a video takes best part 4-5 hours at most.

Not 3 days. They must be trying to cut out all the dead terrorists I guess or it might not come out considering how a PAA mil mi35m was present doing some brrrt stuff


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## Primus

fatman17 said:


> Ambush from BLA got eliminated by Mi 35
> @ForumStrategic
> @AIBoardPSF
> @DaryaKhan_K https://t.co/wuYx7hWu7W
> View attachment 754812


It might be my eyes, but is it carrying a full rocket pod load out on it ls hard points or is one of the hard points armed with ATGM racks?


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## khanasifm

The Russian also use to carry 14.5 mm anti aircraft gun on their convoys to engage folks on high mountains and suppress so convoy can press on 

Lesson learned

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## GriffinsRule

Latest additions to PAA, Cessna 208Bs

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## Ahmet Pasha

GriffinsRule said:


> Latest additions to PAA, Cessna 208Bs
> 
> View attachment 755263
> 
> 
> View attachment 755264


What role is it serving other than medevac?


ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 754929


Man i don't like how the landing gear won't go in.


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## umair86

These are Puma SM we got from UAE. Original ones have the same old cockpit.


Viper27 said:


> Fakhar e Alam shared the cockpit image of the Puma as well. I was surprised to see the full glass/lcd makeover. Didn’t know our Pumas got cockpit upgrades.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) do you think R&D give any output with out any actual allocation of funds to R&D not to pockets, secondly we need some technology trasfer or partnership for any actual heli program to kichoff , which agian need heavy investment (which we dont have) ..
> 
> After investment of money and time in POF , HIT .. what actual output from both ... just disappointment .. except PAC which indeed done fruitful output.


HIT and POF are mismanaged. Put the right people in charge (i.e., NOT generals who are not trained or qualified for managing an industrial outfit), HIT, POF, etc will generate results.

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## Basel

Tipu7 said:


> In PAA the requirement is of mix of heavy and medium cetagory attack helicopter.
> For replacing three sqds of AH-1F/S, PAA opt for one Sqd (12 units) of AH-1Z (heavy attack) and two-three sqds (30 units) of T-129 (medium attack).
> 
> Z-10ME, if arrived, will nullify the need for T-129 or even T-629. The gap for heavier attack helicopters will remain there where likes of AH-1Z or Mi-28NE can only fit. (T-929 in longer run?)
> 
> We need this heavy-medium combo to compensate our vastly different threat environment. Mediums will go to North-Center, Heavies will cover the center-South.
> 
> No.



Why PAA have not looked into Ka-52's latest version??


Mr.Meap said:


> Yep, and here's the thing, India inducted Apaches, you can't counter something like that with Cobras, Z-10s, T129s. A Super Tucano however can, it can outfly an Apache, carry more tank-busting munitions and what not.... Furthermore something like that could be built in Pakistan, creating jobs and what not.
> 
> Though Mushaks are more for observation role I think



It's time is gone as now UCAVs are taking it's role.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> (i.e., NOT generals who are not trained or qualified for managing an industrial outfit)


Uncle syndrome


Basel said:


> Why PAA have not looked into Ka-52's latest version??
> 
> 
> It's time is gone as now UCAVs are taking it's role.


UCAVs require an entire doctrine i.e an entire eco system of EW, counter EW, ECM, SAMs etc like Azerbaijan/Turkey against Armenia. If we want to employ it against a conventional enemy.


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## Sifar zero

When were they added?And what use does Mushak have in the army?


GriffinsRule said:


> Latest additions to PAA, Cessna 208Bs
> 
> View attachment 755263
> 
> 
> View attachment 755264


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## Ahmet Pasha

Sifar zero said:


> When were they added?And what use.l does Mushak have in the army?


Medevac primarily. I think logistics secondary I assume


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## Windjammer

Up and close of a PAA Cobra Gunship.

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## Sifar zero

How many UH-1's do we have?
@Ahmet Pasha @PanzerKiel.


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## Moon

Basel said:


> Why PAA have not looked into Ka-52's latest version??
> 
> 
> It's time is gone as now UCAVs are taking it's role.


Nope, good luck flying a UCAV in an area with lots of jamming. Furthermore UAVs to become effective require expensive guided munitions.
Btw @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I've asked a question in another thread, but how expensive are guided munitions like Paveways and what not? Are they feasible for a country like Pakistan? Do we make airlaunched guided bombs? What about Barq missiles, what's their cost per unit? And what about smaller bombs like the ones on Turkish drones?


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## Sifar zero

Mr.Meap said:


> Nope, good luck flying a UCAV in an area with lots of jamming. Furthermore UAVs to become effective require expensive guided munitions.
> Btw @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I've asked a question in another thread, but how expensive are guided munitions like Paveways and what not? Are they feasible for a country like Pakistan? Do we make airlaunched guided bombs? What about Barq missiles, what's their cost per unit? And what about smaller bombs like the ones on Turkish drones?


Are loitering munitions expensive or cheaper than an ordinary UAV?


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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> Are loitering munitions expensive or cheaper than an ordinary UAV?


Depends, some are cheap but some like Harop are expensive due to their specialized sensors. Some are completely remote controlled, others have a degree of autonomy in them.
Loitering munitions are usually for targets that appear for a very short time, and are of High Value. No-one will throw something like a Harop on troops, trucks, or a tank, you're better off dropping a bomb on them.


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## Basel

Mr.Meap said:


> Nope, good luck flying a UCAV in an area with lots of jamming. Furthermore UAVs to become effective require expensive guided munitions.
> Btw @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I've asked a question in another thread, but how expensive are guided munitions like Paveways and what not? Are they feasible for a country like Pakistan? Do we make airlaunched guided bombs? What about Barq missiles, what's their cost per unit? And what about smaller bombs like the ones on Turkish drones?



Your post shows you have no clue about India air defense and you want Pakistani pilots to get killed.

Pakistan military is not stupid and military Sat Com is not that easy to jam. 

There is reason why world is moving towards AI UCAVs, if those were that easy to jam then world would have not invested in those heavily.

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## spectregunship

GriffinsRule said:


> Latest additions to PAA, Cessna 208Bs
> 
> View attachment 755263
> 
> 
> View attachment 755264



I'm not sure where did you get the medevac thing from but these are actually for VIP flights. Other than the top most VIP fleet this is used.


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## Sayfullah

GriffinsRule said:


> Latest additions to PAA, Cessna 208Bs
> 
> View attachment 755263
> 
> 
> View attachment 755264



Could PAC produce something like this indigenously because it doesn’t look too different from mushshak?


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> HIT and POF are mismanaged. Put the right people in charge (i.e., NOT generals who are not trained or qualified for managing an industrial outfit), HIT, POF, etc will generate results.



Is there any hope they’ll fix this issue and properly manage HIT and POF? 
I don’t think they’ll ever remove the generals I think they’ll always have this issue and same for every other project because for some reason we love making people who aren’t qualified for something in charge of the thing


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Could PAC produce something like this indigenously because it doesn’t look too different from mushshak?
> 
> 
> Is there any hope they’ll fix this issue and properly manage HIT and POF?
> I don’t think they’ll ever remove the generals I think they’ll always have this issue and same for every other project because for some reason we love making people who aren’t qualified for something in charge of the thing


They don't have to 'remove' generals. Rather, the generals need to rise above managing the day-to-day and, instead, focus on holding the people running the system accountable.

So, practically, I would set-up a board of directors and put the generals in the board with the mandate of:

(1) selecting the CEO / Director and upper management of the entity (by hiring from within the organization);

(2) holding HIT etc accountable for revenue, cost, etc, and;

(3) asking the professional leadership of HIT etc why they're doing certain things and not others.

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## GriffinsRule

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Could PAC produce something like this indigenously because it doesn’t look too different from mushshak?
> 
> 
> Is there any hope they’ll fix this issue and properly manage HIT and POF?
> I don’t think they’ll ever remove the generals I think they’ll always have this issue and same for every other project because for some reason we love making people who aren’t qualified for something in charge of the thing


We possibly could but not worth it for the small numbers required. These are also very different than Mushshaks and I'd imagine Cessna would still produce these cheaper and of better quality than anything Pakistan would produce.


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## Moon

Basel said:


> Your post shows you have no clue about India air defense and you want Pakistani pilots to get killed.
> 
> Pakistan military is not stupid and military Sat Com is not that easy to jam.
> 
> There is reason why world is moving towards AI UCAVs, if those were that easy to jam then world would have not invested in those heavily.


AI is very different from being controlled from a ground station or a satellite.
How do you think Iran downed a RQ-170?
Plus nobody will sell Pakistan an autonomous UCAV.


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## iLION12345_1

spectregunship said:


> I'm not sure where did you get the medevac thing from but these are actually for VIP flights. Other than the top most VIP fleet this is used.


Yes and no, they are definitely for MEDEVAC. But when there’s no MEDEVAC to do because there’s no war going on, they need to use them someway, so they use them for VIP flights. The time and money saved by using an aircraft for long VIP flights over large convoys of cars that will also mess with traffic is valuable. So Airplane is more economical than car in this case.

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## GriffinsRule

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yes and no, they are definitely for MEDEVAC. But when there’s no MEDEVAC to do because there’s no war going on, they need to use them someway, so they use them for VIP flights. The time and money saved by using an aircraft for long VIP flights over large convoys of cars that will also mess with traffic is valuable. So Airplane is more economical than car in this case.


Pakistan initially received 6 from the US for medivac and general transport purposes.









Pakistan Army receives six Cessna aircraft from US


Aircraft will be configured for medical evacuation, Pakistan Army Aviation thanks US for the "generous contribution".



www.dawn.com












Pakistan receives Cessna MEDEVAC aircraft from the U.S.


The Pakistan Army Aviation Corps (PAA) took delivery of two Cessna 208B Grand Caravan EX and four Cessna T206H Stationair aircraft from the U.S. on Friday, March 31. Pakistan ordered the six aircra...




quwa.org





In addition to this role, these aircraft are prefer for short haul trips carrying plenty of cargo or troops and can operate from short and unprepared airstrips. They are also used for logistics, reconnaissance, battlefield assessment, SAR and if fitted with STAR system in ISR capacity.

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## Basel

Mr.Meap said:


> AI is very different from being controlled from a ground station or a satellite.
> How do you think Iran downed a RQ-170?
> Plus nobody will sell Pakistan an autonomous UCAV.



AI UCAVs are not fully autonomous in current form, most AI UCAVs are still controlled from ground specially during landing and take off.

Planes like A-10, Super Tucanos are not for Indo-Pak war senario as they need air dominance first by respective air force by performing SEAD/DEAD which is not possible for both India and Pakistan.

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## Moon

Basel said:


> AI UCAVs are not fully autonomous in current form, most AI UCAVs are still controlled from ground specially during landing and take off.
> 
> Planes like A-10, Super Tucanos are not for Indo-Pak war senario as they need air dominance first by respective air force by performing SEAD/DEAD which is not possible for both India and Pakistan.


Does this rule not apply to gunships as well? Yet every army uses them.
In my later posts, I said Tucanos can play a decisive role in counter-terrorism as well.

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## Basel

Mr.Meap said:


> Does this rule not apply to gunships as well? Yet every army uses them.
> In my later posts, I said Tucanos can play a decisive role in counter-terrorism as well.



Nope, because they have different flight characteristics and way of employment which allow them better safety.

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## Moon

Basel said:


> Nope, because they have different flight characteristics and way of employment which allow them better safety.


I think we can do the same with Tucano-like aircrafts. Better sensor integration and unique flight tactics could allow for a lethal combination. Plus they could have a secondary role in destroying enemy gunships. 
Combination of passive and active sensors can allow for automated nap of earth flight, they can also stay far away from the battlefield and lob long range rockets, thanks to their higher flight altitude and speed.
However I think they'd do far better in counterterrorism missions.


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## Basel

Mr.Meap said:


> I think we can do the same with Tucano-like aircrafts. Better sensor integration and unique flight tactics could allow for a lethal combination. Plus they could have a secondary role in destroying enemy gunships.
> Combination of passive and active sensors can allow for automated nap of earth flight, they can also stay far away from the battlefield and lob long range rockets, thanks to their higher flight altitude and speed.
> However I think they'd do far better in counterterrorism missions.



Dear, fixed wing light planes like Tucanos can not hide behind obstacles like trees, buildings, etc. They can not land like helicopters in emergency so they are not good for our doctrine.


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## Moon

Basel said:


> Dear, fixed wing light planes like Tucanos can not hide behind obstacles like trees, buildings, etc. They can not land like helicopters in emergency so they are not good for our doctrine.


I agree that's a disadvantage, but we can use them in Counterterrorism and observational roles, for which we're Mushaks and gunships. We can manufacture something like that in the country and give FC a major advantage over the terrorists.

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## araz

Mr.Meap said:


> I think we can do the same with Tucano-like aircrafts. Better sensor integration and unique flight tactics could allow for a lethal combination. Plus they could have a secondary role in destroying enemy gunships.
> Combination of passive and active sensors can allow for automated nap of earth flight, they can also stay far away from the battlefield and lob long range rockets, thanks to their higher flight altitude and speed.
> However I think they'd do far better in counterterrorism missions.


No plane can do what a helo can do, hide behind terrain rise shoot and duck. I suspect if we had something like a Quadcopter carrying enough weapons the role might be similar but currently at least I do not know of one which is big enough to carry enough Ammo to matter.
A

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## Basel

Mr.Meap said:


> I agree that's a disadvantage, but we can use them in Counterterrorism and observational roles, for which we're Mushaks and gunships. We can manufacture something like that in the country and give FC a major advantage over the terrorists.



Pakistan is shifting towards MALE UAVs/UCAVs for anti terror air ops which will work with other assets like helicopters, troops on ground etc, so no funds and place for birds like Tucanos for paramilitary as we don't have big budget available and also we are moving towards 21 century warfare capabilities.

The role of Mushaks will be taken by UCAVs, the will be serving as trainers and secondary armed recce birds in future.


araz said:


> No plane can do what a helo can do, hide behind terrain rise shoot and duck. I suspect if we had something like a Quadcopter carrying enough weapons the role might be similar but currently at least I do not know of one which is big enough to carry enough Ammo to matter.
> A



There was news about Pakistan buying VTOL UCAVs from China to be used in Swarms what happened to that??


araz said:


> No plane can do what a helo can do, hide behind terrain rise shoot and duck. I suspect if we had something like a Quadcopter carrying enough weapons the role might be similar but currently at least I do not know of one which is big enough to carry enough Ammo to matter.
> A



China have reportedly have deployed following type of UCAV at LAC.

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## Moon

araz said:


> No plane can do what a helo can do, hide behind terrain rise shoot and duck. I suspect if we had something like a Quadcopter carrying enough weapons the role might be similar but currently at least I do not know of one which is big enough to carry enough Ammo to matter.
> A


I'm talking about Counterterrorism in particular, UCAVs need extremely expensive guided munitions to carry out their tasks, something a plane (Tucano) can do with unguided munitions.
Furthermore for CT ops we need to develop a 10 minute rule, that air assets in area shouldn't take longer than 10 minutes to reach the troop/unit asking for air support, for that you need faster aircrafts.


Also in case of VTOL UCAVs I think you're talking about the NORINCO CR-500.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> HIT and POF are mismanaged. Put the right people in charge (i.e., NOT generals who are not trained or qualified for managing an industrial outfit), HIT, POF, etc will generate results.


Question who will do it , seems to have no chances "Billi kay galay main ghanti kon dalay"


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> Question who will do it , seems to have no chances "Billi kay galay main ghanti kon dalay"


Probably the first guy to find out Pakistan can only afford 10 tanks from its available cash resources.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Probably the first guy to find out Pakistan can only afford 10 tanks from its available cash resources.


Hope one day someone will otherwise just external credit and import of defense equipment will continue, ....poor output of HIT, POF etc will continue like that and pockets of few individuals will continue to grow


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## ghazi52



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## Moon

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 756733


Can't we reverse engineer these with off the shelf parts :/ (sourcing Chinese engines and avionics, or even better, building a few simple, yet critical parts within the country?)
These things are ancient, even Iranians are reverse engineering them. I don't think the US cares about these.

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## mingle

Moon said:


> Can't we reverse engineer these with off the shelf parts :/ (sourcing Chinese engines and avionics, or even better, building a few simple, yet critical parts within the country?)
> These things are ancient, even Iranians are reverse engineering them. I don't think the US cares about these.


It's scrap too old technology


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## Moon

mingle said:


> It's scrap too old technology


Replace old technology with newer one when making these


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## Zarvan

Scorpiooo said:


> PAF/PAA can adopt something similar to *Air Tractor AT-802, *for such use, if saving flyaway cost is the issue
> 
> *
> View attachment 753734
> View attachment 753735
> *


Drones are the best solution for counter insurgency. Although these could also do some job. 

@PanzerKiel Sir which helicopter is being seen as main future transport helicopter of Pakistan. Any chance of new Chinese Z-20 and Z-8 being tested and evaluated.

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## Moon

Zarvan said:


> Drones are the best solution for counter insurgency. Although these could also do some job.
> 
> @PanzerKiel Sir which helicopter is being seen as main future transport helicopter of Pakistan. Any chance of new Chinese Z-20 and Z-8 being tested and evaluated.


Drones are good for surveillance, but dropping expensive PGMs on everyother target is going to be expensive.
Using drones for ISR and vectoring something like a Super Tucano or Air Tractor, that is more manoeuvrable than a drone, faster and cheaper than a helicopter and can make use of unguided munitions more effectively is a better strategy.


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## araz

Moon said:


> Drones are good for surveillance, but dropping expensive PGMs on everyother target is going to be expensive.
> Using drones for ISR and vectoring something like a Super Tucano or Air Tractor, that is more manoeuvrable than a drone, faster and cheaper than a helicopter and can make use of unguided munitions more effectively is a better strategy.


A few super Mashaqs can be configured for that. It is light weight propeller driven and good for dumb bombs of small diameter.. However I agree we should provide some sort of area wide surveillance. I thought along the lines of much smaller drones just for area wide surveillance a couple of miles ahead controlled by convoys themselves. You would need IRST in them for night operations.
A
A

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## Abid123

Pakistan needs atleast 100 modern Attack Helicopters. We have 30 T-129 ATAK on order. We also have 5 Mil-24/35 in service. The remaining 65 should be either the
chinese Z-10 or russian KA-52 alligator. Or maybe a combination of both.


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## Stealth

Moon said:


> Can't we reverse engineer these with off the shelf parts :/ (sourcing Chinese engines and avionics, or even better, building a few simple, yet critical parts within the country?)
> These things are ancient, even Iranians are reverse engineering them. I don't think the US cares about these.



You must have similar tech, brain, and strong R&D to reverse technology. Our country is ZERO in R&D and tech. Reverse engineering is not an easy task. Iranians are under sanctioned, they have the best engineering minds and strong R&D depts (in both civil n mil) whereas we are good in bootstrapping.

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## Moon

Stealth said:


> You must have similar tech, brain, and strong R&D to reverse technology. Our country is ZERO in R&D and tech. Reverse engineering is not an easy task. Iranians are under sanctioned, they have the best engineering minds and strong R&D depts (in both civil n mil) whereas we are good in bootstrapping.


What if a Pressler 2.0 happens? What will we do then? 
We need to develop these capabilities. For better or worse .

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## Scorpiooo

Zarvan said:


> Drones are the best solution for counter insurgency. Although these could also do some job.
> 
> @PanzerKiel Sir which helicopter is being seen as main future transport helicopter of Pakistan. Any chance of new Chinese Z-20 and Z-8 being tested and evaluated.


Pakistan Military forces all 3 seems more interested and serious about AW option (Augusta Westland) then Chinese for all type of helicopters roles. they have very good working relationships with Leonardo


Moon said:


> Drones are good for surveillance, but dropping expensive PGMs on everyother target is going to be expensive.
> Using drones for ISR and vectoring something like a Super Tucano or Air Tractor, that is more manoeuvrable than a drone, faster and cheaper than a helicopter and can make use of unguided munitions more effectively is a better strategy.


Actually drone are future and good solution and must be adopted, but they can not solve all the problems as we still need attack helis or turboprop attach aircraft in some senario where human expertise and quick responses is required as per situations

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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> A few *super Mashaqs* can be configured for that. It is light weight propeller driven and good for dumb bombs of small diameter..


Yes Supar Mashaq are good and ecnomical solutions but PAC need to enhance it with powerful engine and stronger wing to have more hardpoint and load capacity (some new stronge variant), then they will work very well in this role and even can be exported for such role as well


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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> Yes Supar Mashaq are good and ecnomical solutions but PAC need to enhance it with powerful engine and stronger wing to have more hardpoint and load capacity (some new stronge variant), then they will work very well in this role and even can be exported for such role as well


Look at the role you are envisaging. CT against a small group of adversaries. The small dia bombs will be 25/50kgs. You dont need anything more than an IRST and 2/4 bombs at the most. Current capabilities allow that to happen and maybe minor adjustments could be required.
What I want to say is existing force needs more effective use. So target acquisition via MALE drones which lase the target and SM(!Not Shah Mehmood Qureshi although throwing him down on insurgents will cause even more comprehensive damage) to drop bombs at the lased target. Or assign the task to one drone.
Does anyone have any idea of the cost of drone operations per hour?
A

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## air marshal



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## Raja Porus

araz said:


> Does anyone have any idea of the cost of drone operations per hour


Sir according to Forbes, Reaper costs $4,864 per flight hour to operate, while a Global Hawk costs about $18,591 per hour. That latter figure makes it more expensive to fly than a manned U-2S spy plane.
Just to give an example...

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## mingle

Moon said:


> What if a Pressler 2.0 happens? What will we do then?
> We need to develop these capabilities. For better or worse .


These Helis are on last legs verge to retire very soon by Z10ME if T129 engine issue won't resolve no need to reverse not sanctions would effect them


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## Moon

mingle said:


> These Helis are on last legs verge to retire very soon by Z10ME if T129 engine issue won't resolve no need to reverse not sanctions would effect them


Wouldn't having a few cheap and "primitive" helis help as force multipliers?


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## Primus

Moon said:


> Wouldn't having a few cheap and "primitive" helis help as force multipliers?


AH1F has served its time and done its job well. Its time for other attack helis to do its job now...

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Army Airbus Helicopters H125 Pre-delivery Test Flight in France
Photographed on March 3, 2021.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Pakistan Army Bell 412EP (Enhanced Performance) helicopter (serial number 786-212)

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## Scorpiooo

ghazi52 said:


> Pakistan Army Airbus Helicopters H125 Pre-delivery Test Flight in France
> Photographed on March 3, 2021.
> 
> 
> View attachment 757831
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 757832


Light attack or utility role ones ?


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## White Lion

ghazi52 said:


> Pakistan Army Airbus Helicopters H125 Pre-delivery Test Flight in France
> Photographed on March 3, 2021.
> 
> 
> View attachment 757831
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 757832


Are these the replacement ones? Over the years a few have been lost.


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## iLION12345_1

Utility, you can see they don’t have wings for weapons. 


Scorpiooo said:


> Light attack or utility role ones ?





White Lion said:


> Are these the replacement ones? Over the years a few have been lost.


Yes, plus extra orders too probably.

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## python-000

Z-10ME ready for Exoprt...

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## Scorpiooo

python-000 said:


> View attachment 758484
> 
> Z-10ME ready for Exoprt...


Which country?


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## umair86

Obviously it's Pakistan


Scorpiooo said:


> Which country?

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## blinder

python-000 said:


> View attachment 758484
> 
> Z-10ME ready for Exoprt...


It is a photo celebrating 100 years of communist party. The banner says something about the way the party is fundamental for life in China.

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## Scorpiooo

umair86 said:


> Obviously it's Pakistan


If true then good news. But i have dought as

if we observe there paint schemes do not match Pakistan army new paint schemes which is multi color camouflage with aggressive colors


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## ghazi52

Pakistan Army Aviation's Cobra AH-1F And Bell 412 EP.

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## Metal 0-1

Aviation guys should look into OH-58 Kiowas





They are superior to Fennecs and other forward observation helicopters in terms of light attack and reconnaissance


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## MIRauf

Metal 0-1 said:


> Aviation guys should look into OH-58 Kiowas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are superior to Fennecs and other forward observation helicopters in terms of light attack and reconnaissance


They are / were very good Scout helos, doubt they are on the offer table though.

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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

Pak Army Mi-17 on a daily mission.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

*Click By Abbas Shah*
May 7, 2020 · 

A sudden view outside my window!!!
Nun Kun Massif visible at far in the background

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418076359126028292

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## syed_yusuf

Pakistan army just had 4 of these mi35 just enough for training in DACT not for actual operations

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## iLION12345_1

syed_yusuf said:


> Pakistan army just had 4 of these mi35 just enough for training in DACT not for actual operations


No, They’ve been used in Ops many many times already, currently they’re deployed in Baluchistan covering convoys and Ops on a regular basis. Just because there’s 5 of them doesn’t mean theyre “just for training” (what would the army get from training with this helicopter anyways that they wouldn’t from another one?).
Besides, PA will probably buy more if it needs to, this was a major symbolic purchase, PA needs proper gunships thats why they don’t buy it in large numbers.

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## Sifar zero

iLION12345_1 said:


> No, They’ve been used in Ops many many times already, currently they’re deployed in Baluchistan covering convoys and Ops on a regular basis. Just because there’s 5 of them doesn’t mean theyre “just for training” (what would the army get from training with this helicopter anyways that they wouldn’t from another one?).
> Besides, PA will probably buy more if it needs to, this was a major symbolic purchase, PA needs proper gunships thats why they don’t buy it in large numbers.


How much is the per hour cost to fly these?
Even an estimate will do.

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## SQ8

iLION12345_1 said:


> No, They’ve been used in Ops many many times already, currently they’re deployed in Baluchistan covering convoys and Ops on a regular basis. Just because there’s 5 of them doesn’t mean theyre “just for training” (what would the army get from training with this helicopter anyways that they wouldn’t from another one?).
> Besides, PA will probably buy more if it needs to, this was a major symbolic purchase, PA needs *proper gunships* thats why they don’t buy it in large numbers.


That doesn’t necessarily mean that the Hind is any less fearful especially in a direct CAS mode. Its achillies is its inefficient hovering. Its best suited to high speed attack runs with its payload of unguided rockets or guns.

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## iLION12345_1

Sifar zero said:


> How much is the per hour cost to fly these?
> Even an estimate will do.


Probably not too much for the PA considering the shared power-plant with the Mi17 series. I doubt they’re using any expensive guided weaponry with it either for CAS roles as it’s not needed.

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## PanzerKiel

iLION12345_1 said:


> I doubt they’re using any expensive guided weaponry with it either for CAS roles as it’s not needed.


I wonder where those Kornets are being used....

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## iLION12345_1

PanzerKiel said:


> I wonder where those Kornets are being used....


Using Kornets on an Mi35 to hit terrorists, I’m impressed, PA really wants them dead 😂

How did PA manage to integrate it onto Mi35? I’m assuming they asked the Russians to do it. I’m aware it’s possible but from what I know it would be the first ever use of kornet from a helicopter. (Unless you mean they’re being used from the ground.)
We’ve never really seen any of PAs Mi35s flying around with the missiles, but I guess PA doesn’t want to show them yet.

Either way, I’m not complaining, as long as they’re killing terrorists, who cares if it’s with a rock or a nuke.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> No, They’ve been used in Ops many many times already, currently they’re deployed in Baluchistan covering convoys and Ops on a regular basis. Just because there’s 5 of them doesn’t mean theyre “just for training” (what would the army get from training with this helicopter anyways that they wouldn’t from another one?).
> Besides, PA will probably buy more if it needs to, this was a major symbolic purchase, PA needs proper gunships thats why they don’t buy it in large numbers.


We heard the news PA order 5 more Mi35

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## Moon

PanzerKiel said:


> I wonder where those Kornets are being used....


Kornets from Mi-35s?  
How?

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## Moon

iLION12345_1 said:


> Using Kornets on an Mi35 to hit terrorists, I’m impressed, PA really wants them dead 😂
> 
> How did PA manage to integrate it onto Mi35? I’m assuming they asked the Russians to do it. I’m aware it’s possible but from what I know it would be the first ever use of kornet from a helicopter. (Unless you mean they’re being used from the ground.)
> We’ve never really seen any of PAs Mi35s flying around with the missiles, but I guess PA doesn’t want to show them yet.
> 
> Either way, I’m not complaining, as long as they’re killing terrorists, who cares if it’s with a rock or a nuke.


I think PA could put Bakter Shikan on Mi-35s, we have plenty of them already.

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## iLION12345_1

Moon said:


> Kornets from Mi-35s?
> How?


It’s possible, a few years ago there was a helicopter borne version of the kornet unveiled, the Kornet-DA, but it has no recorded sales or interest after its unveiling, basically lost to time. Maybe PA has bought that.

Normal Kornets are easily possible to be configured for helicopter use, it’s just that nobody has ever done it due to the other dedicated missiles being available, however it wouldn’t surprise me if PA was the first one doing it. I asked a friend, Ex-Russian army and aviation enthusiast, he was pretty interested in this but sadly I didn’t have much to tell him. He showed me the Kornet-DA.


Moon said:


> I think PA could put Bakter Shikan on Mi-35s, we have plenty of them already.


Technically yes, they could, maybe they will even, but given their smaller numbers currently I assume they haven’t and are using the dedicated ammo. The kornet is a much more advanced system than Bakter Shikan, not that PA hasn’t upgraded those either.


PanzerKiel said:


> I wonder where those Kornets are being used....


Not sure if you’ll know this, but do you have any idea if PA has ordered Vitebsk DIRCM (advanced countermeasures system) with it’s Mi35? The numbers in this photo are probably a typo unless PA is buying a disassembled aircraft carrier from the Russians. 33000 tons of ammo!

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## PanzerKiel

Moon said:


> Kornets from Mi-35s?


I didn't mention that.... Its just that those Kornets keep coming to my mind...

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## mingle

PanzerKiel said:


> I didn't mention that.... Its just that those Kornets keep coming to my mind...


So PAA reach any conclusion about Gunship? Or still hoping for T129 engines?

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## Moon

iLION12345_1 said:


> Normal Kornets are easily possible to be configured for helicopter use


This could be it probably, plus it's most likely easier to integrate a Kornet with the Mi-35 rather than a Baktar Shikan.


iLION12345_1 said:


> Not sure if you’ll know this, but do you have any idea if PA has ordered Vitebsk DIRCM (advanced countermeasures system)


Let's hope they did, there's been an increase in use of MANPADS by terrorist groups around the world and as we rely more and more on air support, they'll be likely trying to get their hands on some MANPADS. Last thing we want is losing a gunship.


PanzerKiel said:


> I didn't mention that.... Its just that those Kornets keep coming to my mind...


LoC maybe...

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## Aamir Hussain

Empty weight of a Hind 24VM is about 8,050 kg. Crates amounting to 31,087 kg. means roughly 3 Helos sans weapons.

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## Blacklight

mingle said:


> So PAA reach any conclusion about Gunship? Or still hoping for T129 engines?


It's PAA right, not PDF?

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## mingle

Blacklight said:


> It's PAA right, not PDF?


Yeh PAA

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> It's PAA right, not PDF?


someone just provided proofe of 33000 tons of ammo to PAA 😂

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## Blacklight

ali_raza said:


> someone just provided proofe of 33000 tons of ammo to PAA 😂



He is a good guy, no issues.

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> He is a good guy, no issues.


i love his writings too

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## Paul2

Moon said:


> This could be it probably, plus it's most likely easier to integrate a Kornet with the Mi-35 rather than a Baktar Shikan.
> 
> Let's hope they did, there's been an increase in use of MANPADS by terrorist groups around the world and as we rely more and more on air support, they'll be likely trying to get their hands on some MANPADS. Last thing we want is losing a gunship.
> 
> LoC maybe...


Kornet is a beamrider, it cannot be simply slaved to a random laser target painter, that will not work without special kornet only hardware.

Russians though were trying to sell a fire, and forget kornet version with an IR seeker for more than a decade.

Is Pakistan a first buyer?


----------



## Moon

Paul2 said:


> Kornet is a beamrider, it cannot be simply slaved to a random laser target painter, that will not work without special kornet only hardware.
> 
> Russians though were trying to sell a fire, and forget kornet version with an IR seeker for more than a decade.
> 
> Is Pakistan a first buyer?


Could be, but seems unlikely we'd go for such a novel approach (which seems unnecessary) when Spiral missiles are already up for grabs.

What seems likely is that we've found a way to integrate the Kornet laser beam onto the helicopter and now we're using Kornets (which cost less).

Or, we're doing none of that and we've only bought Kornets to evaluate them on our neighbors in the East and compare their performances against Baktar Shikan. To either go for a new type of ATGM or improve upon the Baktar Shikan.

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## iLION12345_1

Moon said:


> Could be, but seems unlikely we'd go for such a novel approach (which seems unnecessary) when Spiral missiles are already up for grabs.
> 
> What seems likely is that we've found a way to integrate the Kornet laser beam onto the helicopter and now we're using Kornets (which cost less).
> 
> Or, we're doing none of that and we've only bought Kornets to evaluate them on our neighbors in the East and compare their performances against Baktar Shikan. To either go for a new type of ATGM or improve upon the Baktar Shikan.


I doubt they’re being used with Mi35M, it’s possible yes, and there’s the little known heli-mounted variant too, but it’s unlikely PA has done either. PA purchased a massive amount of munitions with Mi35M. There’s probably 9M120M ATAKA among it for use with those helicopters, along with unguided missiles and the usual gun pods. 

More likely they just bought it as a force multiplier, wherever it’s being used, East or west. PA has been doing that for a while, buying next gen variants of MANPADS (FN-6) and ATGMs (Kornet and possibly Milan) in small numbers to make up stockpiles. Likely to complement the large number of the older variants it has in service.

That’s how Kornet was intended to be used anyways, even Russia is not standardizing it, only buying it in small numbers to complement older systems, because it’s a very expensive missile.

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## Paul2

iLION12345_1 said:


> I doubt they’re being used with Mi35M, it’s possible yes, and there’s the little known heli-mounted variant too, but it’s unlikely PA has done either. PA purchased a massive amount of munitions with Mi35M. There’s probably 9M120M ATAKA among it for use with those helicopters, along with unguided missiles and the usual gun pods.
> 
> More likely they just bought it as a force multiplier, wherever it’s being used, East or west. PA has been doing that for a while, buying next gen variants of MANPADS (FN-6) and ATGMs (Kornet and possibly Milan) in small numbers to make up stockpiles. Likely to complement the large number of the older variants it has in service.
> 
> That’s how Kornet was intended to be used anyways, even Russia is not standardizing it, only buying it in small numbers to complement older systems, because it’s a very expensive missile.


Just googled it out. Mi 35M has a Vikhr ATGM kit. Vikhr, and Kornet have compatible target painting systems.

Hypothetically, all Russian beamriding ammo, from gun shells, to heli ATGMs can be guided with the same hardware.

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## Akh1112

I’m not going to lie, I don’t understand this;

why are people thinking that kornets are on mi35’s, you know the MoDP yearbook specifically said they procured 50 LAUNCHERS lol.

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## iLION12345_1

Akh1112 said:


> I’m not going to lie, I don’t understand this;
> 
> why are people thinking that kornets are on mi35’s, you know the MoDP yearbook specifically said they procured 50 LAUNCHERS lol.


People started assuming that possibly because there was no other guided missile sale listed specifically for Pakistan from Russia. Many of the ones assuming they would be for Mi35s probably don’t know why the term _launchers_ matters here (as in, the difference between missiles and launchers).
Others might have been assuming they would be used on both the helicopters and in ground roles. 
PKs comment just caused a bit more confusion because it implied they were being used off Mi35s but he clarified it later. 

Before that I already explained how it probably wasn’t true and the large amounts of ammo PAA purchased with the Mi35s probably had ATAKA or VIKHR in it for use with the Helos. Kornet is strictly a ground based system, unless PA became the first customer of Kornet-DA (the helicopter launched variant once proposed). which is already little known, so unlikely.

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## Moon

On a completely unrelated note, won't CAATSA stop us from getting more Hinds?


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## syed_yusuf

Last we know PA ordered 5 more after first 4 was delivered, any idea what happened to it ?

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## iLION12345_1

syed_yusuf said:


> Last we know PA ordered 5 more after first 4 was delivered, any idea what happened to it ?


I don’t recall more being ordered after the first 4. PA will order if it needs more. They’re looking at the other options instead. Z-10ME will probably be here sooner or later.

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## Raja Porus

Moon said:


> To either go for a new type of ATGM or improve upon the Baktar Shikan.


We have shifted to HJ-8*D*. @iLION12345_1 will you share some of its info, thanks.

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## bananarepublic

Desert Fox 1 said:


> We have shifted to HJ-8*D*. @iLION12345_1 will you share some of its info, thanks.


Quick question 
Is baktar Shikan a true fire and forget missile or does it need continuous target lock and guidance?


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## PanzerKiel

bananarepublic said:


> Quick question
> Is baktar Shikan a true fire and forget missile or does it need continuous target lock and guidance?


It's SACLOS, continuous tracking by the gunner is required.

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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> We have shifted to HJ-8*D*. @iLION12345_1 will you share some of its info, thanks.





bananarepublic said:


> Quick question
> Is baktar Shikan a true fire and forget missile or does it need continuous target lock and guidance?


Baktar Shikan is not fire and forget. Unless PA has bought The “EM” variant of the Kornet, then PA does not operate any Fire-and-forget ATGMs currently.

Baktar Shikan has been upgraded from its original form, currently the one used is with Tandem warheads as found in the Chinese HJ8D and E variants. Though some older warheads may be in service too.
A lighter, portable and upgraded version of the Baktar Shikan, analogous to the Chinese HJ-8L, was also displayed at IDEAS 2014. Thought I’m unaware if it’s in service with the PA. 
The range of the current models is either 3000M or 4000M, depends on what missiles PA is using, penetration is 600MM of RHA with the Tandem Charges to defeat ERA.

The Baktar Shikan can be equipped with thermal sights and other guidance systems if required, but their availability in PA is unknown to me, PK can tell better.

PA also tested IIR or MMW based guidance ATGMs back in 2010, unsure if any were procured.

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## PanzerKiel

iLION12345_1 said:


> The Baktar Shikan can be equipped with thermal sights and other guidance systems if required, but their availability in PA is unknown to me, PK can tell better.


Sophie thermal sights with each one of them, detection range of more than 6 kms.

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## Sifar zero

iLION12345_1 said:


> Baktar Shikan is not fire and forget. Unless PA has bought The “EM” variant of the Kornet, then PA does not operate any Fire-and-forget ATGMs currently.
> 
> Baktar Shikan has been upgraded from its original form, currently the one used is with Tandem warheads as found in the Chinese HJ8D and E variants. Though some older warheads may be in service too.
> A lighter, portable and upgraded version of the Baktar Shikan, analogous to the Chinese HJ-8L, was also displayed at IDEAS 2014. Thought I’m unaware if it’s in service with the PA.
> 
> The Baktar Shikan can be equipped with thermal sights and other guidance systems if required, but their availability in PA is unknown to me, PK can tell better.
> 
> PA also tested IIR or MMW based guidance ATGMs back in 2010, unsure if any were procured.









You and @Desert Fox 1 usually post very informative messages.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> PA also tested IIR or MMW based guidance ATGMs back in 2010, unsure if any were procured.


None, AFAIK.n


iLION12345_1 said:


> lighter, portable and upgraded version of the Baktar Shikan, analogous to the Chinese HJ-8L


Not in service.


PanzerKiel said:


> Sophie thermal sights with each one of them, detection range of more than 6 kms.


effective? Isn't it too much?
Btw are Soophie saats (as the jawans like to call it) platoon level asset or company? Also do we field any laser range finders in our SIB/MIBs?


iLION12345_1 said:


> Fire-and-forget ATGMs currently.


No fnf atgm is in service with PA.

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## bananarepublic

PanzerKiel said:


> It's SACLOS, continuous tracking by the gunner is required.


Wouldn't Fire and forget be much better in Pakistans case? 
I mean with the vast plants and desserts of eastern borders, mobility for such weapons are really important. 
Is it really cost or some other factor not allowing a general movement towards fire and forget systems?


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## Raja Porus

bananarepublic said:


> Wouldn't Fire and forget be much better in Pakistans case?
> I mean with the vast plants and desserts of eastern borders, mobility for such weapons are really important.
> Is it really cost or some other factor not allowing a general movement towards fire and forget systems?


Cost is the issue, plus tge Baktar Shikan are so numerous that, if we start the replacement now even then it will take more than 5 years to completely replace them. Add to this the trials (which are very strict in PA's case), as well as the training and stock building.

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## bananarepublic

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Cost is the issue, plus tge Baktar Shikan are so numerous that, if we start the replacement now even then it will take more than 5 years to completely replace them. Add to this the trials (which are very strict in PA's case), as well as the training and stock building.


It would be better to start slow replacement now for Frontline troops. Baktar Shikan is still versatile simply for the fact that we have so many of them. But numbers will not compensate for such a improvement in capabilities. 
I wonder if KRL still retains the know how and could do the obvious improvement upon it, just like China. But that's a tall order for our industry run by uncles with good retirement plans


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## Raja Porus

bananarepublic said:


> Wouldn't Fire and forget be much better in Pakistans case?


Fnf also has Its weaknesses. It can be more easily jammed plus tge tank crew has greater warning time since fnf have to be locked on before firing hence giving the crew more response time. On the other hand a trained crew of a SALCOS atgm can point at a target near the tank and then when the missile is near enough they can point the laser beam at the tank thus reducing the response time for the crew as well as counter measures.
Mechanised warfare is more about tactics than technology and numbers.





:: GIDS - BAKTAR-SHIKAN ::







gids.com.pk

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## Raja Porus

bananarepublic said:


> KRL


It is not a product of krl.

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## PanzerKiel

Desert Fox 1 said:


> None, AFAIK.n
> 
> Not in service.
> 
> effective? Isn't it too much?
> Btw are Soophie saats (as the jawans like to call it) platoon level asset or company? Also do we field any laser range finders in our SIB/MIBs?
> 
> No fnf atgm is in service with PA.


Sophie sight is with every TOW and BSWS launcher..... 
in infantry units, apart from normal LRF, FLIR Recon B2-FO multi-sensor binoculars are already there.

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> FLIR Recon B2-FO multi-sensor binoculars are already there.


Wow. But are they company level or platoon?

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## Reichmarshal

iLION12345_1 said:


> I don’t recall more being ordered after the first 4. PA will order if it needs more. They’re looking at the other options instead. Z-10ME will probably be here sooner or later.











Pakistan orders more Mi-35Ms


AirForces Monthly February 2019 (Issue 371) In 2015, Senior Russian diplomat Zamir Kabulov told RIA Novosti Pakistan could buy upto 12 Mi-35M's.



defence.pk





We did order 5 more after the initial order of 4.

Plz at the very least do background search if nothing else than at least this forum.....before making sweeping statements

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## Moon

Desert Fox 1 said:


> We have shifted to HJ-8*D*. @iLION12345_1 will you share some of its info, thanks.


I looked it up on Wiki and it states no change in guidance for the D variant, the big thing here is the tandem charge.
And from what we've learnt about US in Iraq is that tandem charges can deal serious damage, hence the new Iraqi Army was banned from using or buying the RPG-29.


Reichmarshal said:


> Pakistan orders more Mi-35Ms
> 
> 
> AirForces Monthly February 2019 (Issue 371) In 2015, Senior Russian diplomat Zamir Kabulov told RIA Novosti Pakistan could buy upto 12 Mi-35M's.
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We did order 5 more after the initial order of 4.
> 
> Plz at the very least do background search if nothing else than at least this forum.....before making sweeping statements


So we ordered these after CAATSA? Will we face repercussions for this?
They'll probably be delivered next year if all is going according to plan.

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## iLION12345_1

Reichmarshal said:


> Pakistan orders more Mi-35Ms
> 
> 
> AirForces Monthly February 2019 (Issue 371) In 2015, Senior Russian diplomat Zamir Kabulov told RIA Novosti Pakistan could buy upto 12 Mi-35M's.
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We did order 5 more after the initial order of 4.
> 
> Plz at the very least do background search if nothing else than at least this forum.....before making sweeping statements


I am aware of this article. It was not confirmed by any single Pakistani or Russian news source (Pak-Russia weapons deals are major things in news).
Even the first 4 were wrongly quoted as being delivered twice by media, once in 2017 when PA started training on them In Russia and then again in 2018 when they were actually received.

It does make sense for PA to order more, but If these were ordered, then deliveries have not been made yet or aren’t public. It is uncharacteristic of such a delivery to not be in any register or be announced by ISPR _if_ they have been delivered. At least someone would have seen, noticed or reported it, It doesn’t take 2.5 years to produce 5 helicopters (I’m also aware the first “delivery” took 3+ years. In reality those helicopters were finished in under 20 months and handed over to PA in Russia for training.) Nearly 3 years is a major Delay, especially when these don’t even require a training period in Russia.

If they have been delivered or are just really delayed then I may be wrong. There might be some with insider knowledge who knows better, feel free to correct me.

I have no habit of making “sweeping statements” or false tall claims unlike you. Kindly don’t make such passive aggressive statements just because you have a dislike for me due to our previous disagreements. You won’t see me correcting you in such a way.

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## SQ8

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Fnf also has Its weaknesses. It can be more easily jammed plus tge tank crew has greater warning time since fnf have to be locked on before firing hence giving the crew more response time. On the other hand a trained crew of a SALCOS atgm can point at a target near the tank and then when the missile is near enough they can point the laser beam at the tank thus reducing the response time for the crew as well as counter measures.
> Mechanised warfare is more about tactics than technology and numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :: GIDS - BAKTAR-SHIKAN ::
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gids.com.pk


Top down is the current frontier - spike NLOS and other systems are apex predators due to it. The Korean PSTAM ammo is in that league.

The Indian combo of Hellfire R & L can decapitate armored columns given the airspace is generally sanitized for them. If they purchase the spike nlos for their AH-64 then it will be misery for any targeted PA division.

if they can resolve their issues with the helina/ dhruv combo then even worse.

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## Dazzler

PanzerKiel said:


> Sophie thermal sights with each one of them, detection range of more than 6 kms.


Penetration for improved tandem warhead version exceeds 800m LOS I think?

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## iLION12345_1

_Baktar Shikan" complex was improved by Pakistani specialists in parallel with modernization of HJ-8 PTRK. As compared to the original version, the following main changes were made: the thermal imaging sight was installed, the PTUR was equipped with a tandem BC of cumulative action, the equipment of the complex operation check was improved and its weight was reduced, as well as the service life of batteries was increased. Maximum range of fire is 3 km. Baktar Shikan" control equipment provides automatic tracking of the missile along the target sighting line. In the portable version of the complex is dismantled into four pack weighing no more than 25 kg in the following composition: sighting unit (IR goniometer, weight - 12.5 kg), control system unit (weight 24 kg), launcher (weight 23 kg) and the missile in the TIC. It is allowed to use HJ-8 missiles of all versions in the structure of Baktar Shikan MAC. It was also reported that the development of an advanced digital guidance system based on a 32-bit Intel processor was completed








_

The Data on GIDS website for this thing is either old or they’re still using old missiles with 3000m range and 600mm penetration (according to GIDS.)

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## PanzerKiel

PanzerKiel said:


> Sophie thermal sights with each one of them, detection range of more than 6 kms.

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## Raja Porus

SQ8 said:


> The Indian combo of Hellfire R & L can decapitate armored columns given the airspace is generally sanitized for them. If they purchase the spike nlos for their AH-64 then it will be misery for any targeted PA division.


They have procured both. Spike was originally cancelled but after swift retort and its preceding and succeeding skirmishes IA decided to procure it. 250+ launchers have been procured.
However I suppose the biggest threat comes from the Nag/Helina missile since it is indigenous. It would prove lethal if India equips its BMP2s, which india has plenty of, with them. Also if India is able to mass produce LCH equipped with them,we will be facing serious difficulties.
Btw I feel we are lagging behind in terms of atgms. I'd suggest procuring aft-10 
wtih HJ-10 from China or equipping them on our M113s, if not any indigenous NLOS.


Desert Fox 1 said:


> I think that the best option for us is to procure the AFT-10 anti tank systems which fires hj10. It can completely decimate tank concentrations ( it has 8 ready to fire missiles and takes only eights minutes to reload). What's more it also has a surface to air version called AKD-10.
> The missile has an optical/imaging guidance system. It is a non-line of sight missile. It can lock on the target within the line of sight. Alternatively the operator locks on the target after the launch, using a real time image from the missile. Coupled with UAVs it can be very potent .
> View attachment 716357

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## Tipu7

Desert Fox 1 said:


> They have procured both. Spike was originally cancelled but after swift retort and its preceding and succeeding skirmishes IA decided to procure it. 250+ launchers have been procured.
> However I suppose the biggest threat comes from the Nag/Helina missile since it is indigenous. It would prove lethal if India equips its BMP2s, which india has plenty of, with them. Also if India is able to mass produce LCH equipped with them,we will be facing serious difficulties.
> Btw I feel we are lagging behind in terms of atgms. I'd suggest procuring aft-10
> wtih HJ-10 from China or equipping them on our M113s, if not any indigenous NLOS.


Has India procured Spike ATGMs? 

The approval for emergency purchase was given, but AFAIK, no order was placed.


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## Primus

Tipu7 said:


> Has India procured Spike ATGMs?
> 
> The approval for emergency purchase was given, but AFAIK, no order was placed.


They only have >40 or so launchers. They bought more during the 2019 and 2020 skirmishes

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## Raja Porus

Tipu7 said:


> Has India procured Spike ATGMs?
> 
> The approval for emergency purchase was given, but AFAIK, no order was placed.





https://m.economictimes.comnews/defence/indian-army-successfully-test-fires-newly-acquired-spike-anti-tank-guided-missile/videoshow/72277103.cms%0A%09


They have them in very limited numbers, most probably dropped in favour of the indigenous one.

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## SQ8

Desert Fox 1 said:


> They have procured both. Spike was originally cancelled but after swift retort and its preceding and succeeding skirmishes IA decided to procure it. 250+ launchers have been procured.
> However I suppose the biggest threat comes from the Nag/Helina missile since it is indigenous. It would prove lethal if India equips its BMP2s, which india has plenty of, with them. Also if India is able to mass produce LCH equipped with them,we will be facing serious difficulties.
> Btw I feel we are lagging behind in terms of atgms. I'd suggest procuring aft-10
> wtih HJ-10 from China or equipping them on our M113s, if not any indigenous NLOS.


Add to this that we has less armor comparatively - from the limited 20000ft view it seems our armored offensives are likely to face a similar mauling in terms of effectiveness as with Longewala. Defensive maneuvers may fare better only if the PAF can guarantee top cover to keep CBU armed IAF assets at bay and AD is capable of keeping any helis from operating effectively.

So far it seems the priorities of the brass on the surface definitely don’t seem to involve rapid closing of the gaps.

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## Raja Porus

We


SQ8 said:


> Add to this that we has less armor comparative


have qualitative edge, plus I have figured out that our official numbers are far less than those calculated by their deployment.



SQ8 said:


> AD is capable


Embedded MANPADs (FN, Anza, RBS), FM-90s are integral part of all armoured formations. Also in a recent exercise LY80 was also seen with the mech elements.t


SQ8 said:


> PAF can guarantee top cover to keep CBU


The only way to achieve that is by suppression of enemy air bases. In fact both sides want to do it.


SQ8 said:


> Defensive maneuvers may fare bette


Dear, mechanised warfare is more about the way and place where you deploy your forces than just numbers or even technology. At Assal Uttar we had both technical as well as numerical superiority. We had M48s, THE best tank of that time, a whole armoured div of them along with an infantry Division yet we gained nothing and lost our offensive capability. The Indians were a single Mountain division with an enforcedCenturion regiment and some AMX light tanks.
On the other hand In 1971 India had 11 and 12 Divisions, an independent infantry brigade, and some extra tank regiments in the Naya Chor region threatening the famous North-south link of Pakistan. The attack of 11 div was thwarted as the commander of Pakistani bde decided to fall back to a more defendable place i.e Naya Chor itself while that of 12 inf div was pre-empted by Pakistan army with a single bde of 33 inf div and A SINGLE ARMOURED REGT. You can draw the conclusions yourself...
An armoured division bashing itself against enemy defences will never be able to do as much damage as a single armoured regt that has found a gap and has exploited it with mechanised infantry following...


SQ8 said:


> rapid closing of the gaps.


The price of NLOS is too high to be much beneficial. It is better to have atgms woth range of 7-12 km which are relatively cheaper than to have those of 20km+ range but due the cost the commander will think twice before committing them. Also won't it better to raise more armoured regiments than yo buy super expensive atgms that can never be fielded in sufficient numbers.


Here I calculated the number of tanks by deployment. You can reduce upto200 tanks to remain on the safe side but even then the numbers are too high.
P.S tge numbers are very rough and approximated for easier calculations.


Desert Fox 1 said:


> -PA armd divs plus indp armd bdes of 1 and 2 corps= 2×450=900 tanks.
> -2× mech divs(25 and 26)= 2×250=250 tanks.
> - Armd bdes with inf divs (15, 10, 17, 16, 18, 14, 8, 11, 23, 40, 8, 37and 35)=13×88= 1144 tanks.
> - Indp Armd bdes with IV, V, 30, 31=4×88= 352 tanks.
> - IABGs= 4( I'm writing 4 as not all have thw regts) ×88= 352 tanks.
> - Atleast 1× armd regt in Balochistan=44 tanks.
> plus there might be one indp armd bde/regt either with 19div or 10corps.
> Thus, total number of tanks (theoretically)= 900 + 500 + 1144 + 352 + 616 = *3512 tanks (atleast)*
> But according to most sources there are more then 60 regts = 64 (estimated)×44 = *2816 tanks.*
> That means a defecit of *696 tanks atleast!*
> And our published tank numbers are:
> Alkhalids/ AK1s= 500
> T80UD= 320
> AlZarrars=800
> Type-85s=300
> Type-69s= 176
> ( Not including VT4s as these numbers are before its induction)
> Also these numbers may not be accurate but I've increased them in order to match most sources especially that of AKs.
> Thus total tanks according to type≈*2200 tanks.
> Such a great defecit!*
> @PanzerKiel @Dazzler
> @Ark_Angel @Tipu7 @Signalian @HRK

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## Cookie Monster

SQ8 said:


> Add to this that we has less armor comparatively - from the limited 20000ft view it seems our armored offensives are likely to face a similar mauling in terms of effectiveness as with Longewala. Defensive maneuvers may fare better only if the PAF can guarantee top cover to keep CBU armed IAF assets at bay and AD is capable of keeping any helis from operating effectively.
> 
> So far it seems the priorities of the brass on the surface definitely don’t seem to involve rapid closing of the gaps.


Can Pak acquire something akin to CBU for Indian armor? PAF equipped with a CBU like equivalent would be far more effective against advancing Indian armor...as opposed to only serving the role of air cover and keeping IAF's CBU equipped aircraft at bay.

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## Primus

SQ8 said:


> Add to this that we has less armor comparatively - from the limited 20000ft view it seems our armored offensives are likely to face a similar mauling in terms of effectiveness as with Longewala. Defensive maneuvers may fare better only if the PAF can guarantee top cover to keep CBU armed IAF assets at bay and AD is capable of keeping any helis from operating effectively.
> 
> So far it seems the priorities of the brass on the surface definitely don’t seem to involve rapid closing of the gaps.


Ly80/HQ16A are apart of army AD. They can intercept enemy aircraft at ranges of 40km and heights of 18km (59k ft). That's can counter the IAF jaguars with the CBU


Cookie Monster said:


> Can Pak acquire something akin to CBU for Indian armor? PAF equipped with a CBU like equivalent would be far more effective against advancing Indian armor...as opposed to only serving the role of air cover and keeping IAF's CBU equipped aircraft at bay.


I would love to see a derivative of that in service with our airforce.

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## SQ8

Desert Fox 1 said:


> We
> have qualitative edge, plus I have figured out that our official numbers are far less than those calculated by their deployment.
> 
> 
> Embedded MANPADs (FN, Anza, RBS), FM-90s are integral part of all armoured formations. Also in a recent exercise LY80 was also seen with the mech elements.t
> The only way to achieve that is by suppression of enemy air bases. In fact both sides want to do it.
> 
> Dear, mechanised warfare is more about the way and place where you deploy your forces than just numbers or even technology. At Assal Uttar we had both technical as well as numerical superiority. We had M48s, THE best tank of that time, a whole armoured div of them along with an infantry Division yet we gained nothing and lost our offensive capability. The Indians were a single Mountain division with an enforcedCenturion regiment and some AMX light tanks.
> On the other hand In 1971 India had 11 and 12 Divisions, an independent infantry brigade, and some extra tank regiments in the Naya Chor region threatening the famous North-south link of Pakistan. The attack of 11 div was thwarted as the commander of Pakistani bde decided to fall back to a more defendable place i.e Naya Chor itself while that of 12 inf div was pre-empted by Pakistan army with a single bde of 33 inf div and A SINGLE ARMOURED REGT. You can draw the conclusions yourself...
> An armoured division bashing itself against enemy defences will never be able to do as much damage as a single armoured regt that has found a gap and has exploited it with mechanised infantry following...
> 
> The price of NLOS is too high to be much beneficial. It is better to have atgms woth range of 7-12 km which are relatively cheaper than to have those of 20km+ range but due the cost the commander will think twice before committing them. Also won't it better to raise more armoured regiments than yo buy super expensive atgms that can never be fielded in sufficient numbers.
> 
> 
> Here I calculated the number of tanks by deployment. You can reduce upto200 tanks to remain on the safe side but even then the numbers are too high.
> P.S tge numbers are very rough and approximated for easier calculations.


I presume MANPADs are to deter 10-15km radius at best? The LY-80 cannot fire on the move, it is likely to be used for brigade(or battalion at best) level much like the Egyptians did to some extent with their Sa-6s in the 73 conflict but would not be able to move with a company - the HQ-7 comes into that calculus. All SHORADs that accompany a company or troop have to consider the following when going into an area.

1. Sufficient area for dispersion.
2. Alternate exit and entrance routes.
3. Easily defended against ground attack.
4. Easily recognizable and known to all friendly forces in area.
5. Good communications with higher, lower, and supported units.
6.Good observation.
7. Reconnaissance prior to occupation.
8. Coordination with adjacent unit prior to occupation.
9.Area secured prior to occupation; listening post and observation post established at main entrance.

I am sure they are capable of rapid redeployments but a true moving assets is the SPAAG like a 
Pantsir(scuttled deal) or other SPAAG equipped with Short range systems. The Tor-M1 is another one that is expected to move 6-10km behind the FLOT.

Either way, the Indians have leapfrogged that aspect of forcing aircraft into dense low level AAA through the CBU-105 procurement. How effective their assets are in deployment of this system is unknown but if they are proficient then it is a very powerful tool to negate any qualitative superiority over Indian armor since they’ll decimate tank numbers enough to make their quantity worthwhile.

Again, a lot of factors apply such as asset mobility, dispersion, cover and so on. But each of those has tools available to negate it and counters to those tools. From that 20000ft level it doesn’t look like the equation is that “balanced” as is being proposed here


Huffal said:


> Ly80/HQ16A are apart of army AD. They can intercept enemy aircraft at ranges of 40km and heights of 18km (59k ft). That's can counter the IAF jaguars with the CBU
> 
> I would love to see a derivative of that in service with our airforce.


Is the assumption those aircraft will not be accompanied by EW and battlefield SEAD assets?


Cookie Monster said:


> Can Pak acquire something akin to CBU for Indian armor? PAF equipped with a CBU like equivalent would be far more effective against advancing Indian armor...as opposed to only serving the role of air cover and keeping IAF's CBU equipped aircraft at bay.


The Chinese have a LS-6 derivative with Anti-Personnel/ Anti-Material payload but no sensor fuzed skeets like the CBU-105x

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## Bilal.

SQ8 said:


> The Chinese have a LS-6 derivative with Anti-Personnel/ Anti-Material payload but no sensor fuzed skeets like the CBU-105x


They have sensor-fuzed skeets for artillery rockets. Never understood why they never mated it with aerial bomb to make their own CBU105 equivalent.

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## Raja Porus

SQ8 said:


> I presume MANPADs are to deter 10-15km radius


10km at best.


SQ8 said:


> Tor-M1


I wonder why we are not looking into neither HQ-17 nor any CBU-105 type munition.


SQ8 said:


> Either way, the Indians have leapfrogged that aspect of forcing aircraft into dense low level AAA through the CBU-105 procurement. How effective their assets are in deployment of this system is unknown but if they are proficient then it is a very powerful tool to negate any qualitative superiority over Indian armor since they’ll decimate tank numbers enough to make their quantity worthwhile.


Due to these reasons as well as the numerical superiority of IAF, PAF will be facing serious strain in a battle of attrition. Thus we HAVE to suppress the enemy bases within 150-200km of the border at all costs. If we are able to do that we can move our armoured formations with relative ease just like the Israelis did in 67. We have to do the pre-emptive on IAF bases other wise their numbers along with decent quality will be difficult to handle and as you have pointed out our Short ranged SAMs will be useless. The bases within this range can be suppressed by A100s or Fatah which can be equipped with cluster munitions as well as the GBU-6A having a range of 120+ km, if not by PAF itself due to strong enemy AD concentration. However even that(S400 etc) can be neutralised because I bet our intel knows the locations of their AD assets which canbe then engaged by various munitions. Indians knew this aim of PA and hence one of the reasons IAF opted SU-30s( and later its integration Brahmos) was its ability to operate from air bases deeper in India,out of reach of PAF... If we are able to do this we can pretty much stop worrying about the CBU-105 problem as well. After suppressing these bases we can monitor those bases far away with ground(tps, jy27) as well as airbased radars (this point also justifies why we have more AEWACS then our commonly thought of requirements) so any package taking off from deeper enemy territory can be intercepted by PAF before reaching our armoured spearheads. I believe the current procurement of J10C (if), is not as a bomb truck or a replacement for mirages as is commonly believed, but because PAF lacks a strong capability to perform long range interception (and interdiction), deep strike missions. In short, preventing IAF from using its numbers is the key to Pakistani success both on land as well as the air.

Tbh I'm enjoying this discussion because it involves operational level discussion keeping in view the tactical level complications.

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## Inception-06

Desert Fox 1 said:


> We
> have qualitative edge, plus I have figured out that our official numbers are far less than those calculated by their deployment.
> 
> 
> Embedded MANPADs (FN, Anza, RBS), FM-90s are integral part of all armoured formations. Also in a recent exercise LY80 was also seen with the mech elements.t
> The only way to achieve that is by suppression of enemy air bases. In fact both sides want to do it.
> 
> Dear, mechanised warfare is more about the way and place where you deploy your forces than just numbers or even technology. At Assal Uttar we had both technical as well as numerical superiority. We had M48s, THE best tank of that time, a whole armoured div of them along with an infantry Division yet we gained nothing and lost our offensive capability. The Indians were a single Mountain division with an enforcedCenturion regiment and some AMX light tanks.
> On the other hand In 1971 India had 11 and 12 Divisions, an independent infantry brigade, and some extra tank regiments in the Naya Chor region threatening the famous North-south link of Pakistan. The attack of 11 div was thwarted as the commander of Pakistani bde decided to fall back to a more defendable place i.e Naya Chor itself while that of 12 inf div was pre-empted by Pakistan army with a single bde of 33 inf div and A SINGLE ARMOURED REGT. You can draw the conclusions yourself...
> An armoured division bashing itself against enemy defences will never be able to do as much damage as a single armoured regt that has found a gap and has exploited it with mechanised infantry following...
> 
> The price of NLOS is too high to be much beneficial. It is better to have atgms woth range of 7-12 km which are relatively cheaper than to have those of 20km+ range but due the cost the commander will think twice before committing them. Also won't it better to raise more armoured regiments than yo buy super expensive atgms that can never be fielded in sufficient numbers.
> 
> 
> Here I calculated the number of tanks by deployment. You can reduce upto200 tanks to remain on the safe side but even then the numbers are too high.
> P.S tge numbers are very rough and approximated for easier calculations.



Good reply, but regarding mobile air defenses, your ignoring the shortcomings. No effective _*offensive*_ *maneuvers will be possible, with the actual equipment and doctrines, without repeating a longewala disaster. *

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## Raja Porus

Inception-06 said:


> your ignoring the shortcomings.


Sir please elaborate bit further. Thanks.
Btw I believe that only some short to medium range *M*obile air defence would be useful, without them, the current short range ones are of little use against IAF packages especially when thay are using SOWs and REKs.

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## Great Janjua

For shoot whilst on move AAD the Turks have the korkut SPAAD a very lethal piece of equipment if used properly with armoured thrusts.I heard the Army AAD was evaluating the system last year but like always the army has a mind of its own,Don't know what panned out next after the evaluations.

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## farooqbhai007

Great Janjua said:


> For shoot whilst on move AAD the Turks have the korkut SPAAD a very lethal piece of equipment if used properly with armoured thrusts.I heard the Army AAD was evaluating the system last year but like always the army has a mind of its own,Don't know what panned out next after the evaluations.


If I remember correctly based on some sources the Korkut was trialed by PA on a M113 derivative chassis.

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## Raja Porus

Great Janjua said:


> For shoot whilst on move AAD the Turks have the korkut SPAAD a very lethal piece of equipment if used properly with armoured thrusts.I heard the Army AAD was evaluating the system last year but like always the army has a mind of its own,Don't know what panned out next after the evaluations.


Range is 5 kms less than RBS-70.


Inception-06 said:


> . No effective _*offensive*_ *maneuvers will be possible, with the actual equipment and doctrines, without repeating a longewala disaster.*


That's what we are discussing. The current AD assets of amrd divs are not potent enough to provide G2A protection farther than 20 kms at best. Thus I was talking about the alternative PA/PAF is going to adopt in order to overcome this.

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## Akh1112

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Range is 5 kms less than RBS-70.
> 
> That's what we are discussing. The current AD assets of amrd divs are not potent enough to provide G2A protection farther than 20 kms at best. Thus I was talking about the alternative PA/PAF is going to adopt in order to overcome this.



You also get to attack more targets than an rbs70… the point of korkut would be to work in conjunction with fm90. IMO hq17 should be looked at, missile based shorad with high ceiling and can shoot on the move

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## Great Janjua

Akh1112 said:


> You also get to attack more targets than an rbs70… the point of korkut would be to work in conjunction with fm90. IMO hq17 should be looked at, missile based shorad with high ceiling and can shoot on the move


Yes the korkut system best compliments our armoured thrust requirements it's a true shoot whilst on move platform can operate simultaneously with tanks and infantry.Whilst can be adopted on our local m113 chassis.Its a win a win but no news regarding what happened after the evaluation process.

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## Inception-06

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Range is 5 kms less than RBS-70.
> 
> That's what we are discussing. The current AD assets of amrd divs are not potent enough to provide G2A protection farther than 20 kms at best. Thus I was talking about the alternative PA/PAF is going to adopt in order to overcome this.



A homegrown solution would be the best.


Desert Fox 1 said:


> Range is 5 kms less than RBS-70.
> 
> That's what we are discussing. The current AD assets of amrd divs are not potent enough to provide G2A protection farther than 20 kms at best. Thus I was talking about the alternative PA/PAF is going to adopt in order to overcome this.






Desert Fox 1 said:


> Sir please elaborate bit further. Thanks.
> Btw I believe that only some short to medium range *M*obile air defence would be useful, without them, the current short range ones are of little use against IAF packages especially when thay are using SOWs and REKs.



OK, in short Pakistan needs air superiority fighter squadrons like the J-10CE, and something equal to the *Tor missile system* like the HQ-17 which can create and ensure safe air space during the offensive maneuvers across the Border.

From the Theory:

Pakistani air defence units should have mobility that matches that of their mechanized or defended assets. Current ADA *units cannot match the cross-country mobility of maneuvering forces. *However, HQ-16 and FM-90 systems can move with and maintain defense of the maneuver force’s semi-fixed assets, *but have not sufficient mobility to move from position to position to continuously extend protection over the supported force on the move*. Mobility of ADA units increases their survivability as well as that of their supported assets and of the mechanized Forces !



https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN31339-FM_3-01-000-WEB-1.pdf

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## Inception-06

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Range is 5 kms less than RBS-70.
> 
> That's what we are discussing. The current AD assets of amrd divs are not potent enough to provide G2A protection farther than 20 kms at best. Thus I was talking about the alternative PA/PAF is going to adopt in order to overcome this.



Longterm solution could be transfer of Chinese HQ-16 missile technology or Italian aspide A la Spada missiles with extended range. Starting with production of semi Kits, while establishing a air defense researching Center. Chasis for missile carriers could be the body of the Alkhalid Tank.

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## Inception-06

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Range is 5 kms less than RBS-70.
> 
> That's what we are discussing. The current AD assets of amrd divs are not potent enough to provide G2A protection farther than 20 kms at best. Thus I was talking about the alternative PA/PAF is going to adopt in order to overcome this.



We are experts in developing, researching cruise missiles, ballistic missiles and anything else, but air defense seems to be remain in the dark.

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## Primus

Inception-06 said:


> Why are experts in developing, researching cruise missiles, ballistic missiles and anything else, but air defense seems to be remain in the dark.


Things are kept in the dark/classified for a reason.

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## Inception-06

Huffal said:


> Things are kept in the dark/classified for a reason.



I don’t think so but hopefully.

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## SQ8

Desert Fox 1 said:


> 10km at best.
> 
> I wonder why we are not looking into neither HQ-17 nor any CBU-105 type munition.
> 
> Due to these reasons as well as the numerical superiority of IAF, PAF will be facing serious strain in a battle of attrition. Thus we HAVE to suppress the enemy bases within 150-200km of the border at all costs. If we are able to do that we can move our armoured formations with relative ease just like the Israelis did in 67. We have to do the pre-emptive on IAF bases other wise their numbers along with decent quality will be difficult to handle and as you have pointed out our Short ranged SAMs will be useless. The bases within this range can be suppressed by A100s or Fatah which can be equipped with cluster munitions as well as the GBU-6A having a range of 120+ km, if not by PAF itself due to strong enemy AD concentration. However even that(S400 etc) can be neutralised because I bet our intel knows the locations of their AD assets which canbe then engaged by various munitions. Indians knew this aim of PA and hence one of the reasons IAF opted SU-30s( and later its integration Brahmos) was its ability to operate from air bases deeper in India,out of reach of PAF... If we are able to do this we can pretty much stop worrying about the CBU-105 problem as well. After suppressing these bases we can monitor those bases far away with ground(tps, jy27) as well as airbased radars (this point also justifies why we have more AEWACS then our commonly thought of requirements) so any package taking off from deeper enemy territory can be intercepted by PAF before reaching our armoured spearheads. I believe the current procurement of J10C (if), is not as a bomb truck or a replacement for mirages as is commonly believed, but because PAF lacks a strong capability to perform long range interception (and interdiction), deep strike missions. In short, preventing IAF from using its numbers is the key to Pakistani success both on land as well as the air.
> 
> Tbh I'm enjoying this discussion because it involves operational level discussion keeping in view the tactical level complications.



Well @PanzerKiel keeps saying “kharboozay ke baghaat mein bahaar hai” .. and we have been estimating based on the trends that its “paise aanay de, din badalne de.. sitaron se teri maang bhar dun, gali teray naam kar dun” ..perhaps it has more to do with them gauging the operational requirements/reality different versus what we see based on OSINT.

That simulation I did actually account for some suppression of IAF front line bases using MBRLs or other strikes but they can do the same with Pakistan. The MKI lets them retreat to relative safety as so does the Rafale. Their other CAS or interdiction assets such as the Jaguar will have to operate from bases with a 30-45 minute flight time to FLOT otherwise they will face issues being that responsive.

On the other hand, the lack of depth forces Pakistan to have different dispersal techniques as its only option and expect its CAS sorties to face contested airspace possibly from the get go.

I don’t think for CAS the need is to go beyond standoff AT systems and then leave the rest to some really good guided artillery.
I remember we( 🇺🇸) were experimenting with launching small diameter bombs from the MLRS to hit targets. While there are AT mines dispersal on the MBRLs Pak Army has, there really needs to be some R&D of letting arty launch skeets or other munitions that may end up costing $70k a piece but will also knock out an entire column of $millions 90% of the time. Im sure the Indians are already investigating and eventually despite their own R&D project management and bureaucracy being a hinderance make better and faster solutions to the Pakistani problem.

I constantly fear Pakistanis underestimate the enemy as soon as there is a minuscule tactical victory

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## SQ8

Bilal. said:


> They have sensor-fuzed skeets for artillery rockets. Never understood why they never mated it with aerial bomb to make their own CBU105 equivalent.


It’s possible their operational requirements are different (thinking of Marine and Naval focused battles) versus long drawn out airland battles.

Artillery skeet rounds are better suited for supporting a marine invasion than a hotly contested airspace.

Finally, as mentioned - it is likely that there are measures to tackle these gaps but kept classified (and rightly so). But just like the ELINT F-104, one hopes they are employed effectively by commanders that understand their significance rather than being left unused or employed incorrectly because the users were never trained properly on employing the classified equipment(that has happened more often than one thinks in military history)

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## air marshal



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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1421867767779704832

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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1421867767779704832


ab is kam ke hi reh gay hain ye cobra bachoon ko khush kerny ke liye

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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> ab is kam ke hi reh gay hain ye cobra bachoon ko khush kerny ke liye


Nai mujey tu barey aur borey bi nazar araye hain.

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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> Nai mujey tu barey aur borey bi nazar araye hain.


wo bachoon ke sath ayee thy ab kya bachoon ko akela bheg deen ? cobra ke pankhy se awam ko hawa di jay garmiyoon main

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## TsAr

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1421867767779704832


learnt this lesson when I was 5 years old....


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## bhola record

Imran Khan said:


> ab is kam ke hi reh gay hain ye cobra bachoon ko khush kerny ke liye


sir chorayen ap bhi ghussay kar jaty hain har bat pe ap bhi jaiye thori hawa kayen rotor ki

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

That is one *vintage helicopter* , the 1970 Cobras ,* 50 year old bird *, which the folks in public are appreciating as if it is a grand , marvel of machinery

Between 1970 and 2021 , the world has seen tremendous upgrades on the Gunship area

Heavier Gunships
Greater variety of weapons
Armored Types
More sophisticated Sensors i.e Radars
More sophisticated Night Mission options
More sophisticated heat vision sensors
Satellite , connection etc. For aid

This should not have been this way had we just agreed to use the Chinese Helicopters which were on offer long time ago

Had we inducted the Z-10 Choppers in 2015 , by now 2021 , we could have had a fleet of 40 Choppers to 60 Choppers 

The *5 % -15%* performance variance , between Z-10 and Super Cobra would not have mattered much if we inducted greater number of machines

The T-129 , Choppers while they would fit the gap , and provide some upgrade however the induction date/speed is quite questionable


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## CHI RULES

air marshal said:


>


 Only 4-5 with considerable impact perhaps few operations in Baluchistan, why we are not getting more.


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## Primus

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> That is one *vintage helicopter* , the 1970 Cobras ,* 50 year old bird *, which the folks in public are appreciating as if it is a grand , marvel of machinery
> 
> Between 1970 and 2021 , the world has seen tremendous upgrades on the Gunship area
> 
> Heavier Gunships
> Greater variety of weapons
> Armored Types
> More sophisticated Sensors i.e Radars
> More sophisticated Night Mission options
> More sophisticated heat vision sensors
> Satellite , connection etc. For aid
> 
> 
> This should not have been this way had we just agreed to use the Chinese Helicopters which were on offer long time ago
> 
> Had we inducted the Z-10 Choppers in 2015 , by now 2021 , we could have had a fleet of 40 Choppers to 60 Choppers
> 
> The *5 % -15%* performance variance , between Z-10 and Super Cobra would not have mattered much if we inducted greater number of machines
> 
> The T-129 , Choppers while they would fit the gap , and provide some upgrade however the induction date/speed is quite questionable


Good thing it's not the ah1g then


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## iLION12345_1

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> That is one *vintage helicopter* , the 1970 Cobras ,* 50 year old bird *, which the folks in public are appreciating as if it is a grand , marvel of machinery
> 
> Between 1970 and 2021 , the world has seen tremendous upgrades on the Gunship area
> 
> Heavier Gunships
> Greater variety of weapons
> More sophisticated Sensors i.e Radars
> More sophisticated Night Mission options
> More sophisticated heat vision sensors
> Satellite , connection etc. For aid
> 
> This should not have been this way had we just agreed to use the Chinese Helicopters which were on offer long time ago
> 
> Had we inducted the Z-10 Choppers in 2015 , by now 2021 , we could have had a fleet of 40 Choppers to 60 Choppers
> 
> The *5 % -15%* performance variance , between Z-10 and Super Cobra would not have mattered much if we inducted greater number of machines
> 
> The T-129 , Choppers while they would fit the gap , and provide some upgrade however the induction date/speed is quite questionable



Firstly the difference isn’t a mere 5-15%. The AH-1Z is simply in another class, Z-10 or T-129 cannot take its place unless in 2x the numbers. Its is simply the _best_ gunship on sale anywhere right now. (PS: the super cobra is not AH-1Z, that is older AH-1J). It’s considered half a generation ahead of the Apache itself.


The Z-10K wasn’t even operable at higher temperatures and altitudes as Pakistan needed it to be, nor did it have the kind of weaponry the AH-1Z did, The hellfire missiles PA was along with it were then a generation ahead of anything China was making.
To give some specific examples: The AH-1Z has 6 hard points. Apache, Z-10 (all versions) and T-129 have 4. The T-129 and Z-10 can both carry around 1500KG of ordinance. AH-1Z can carry 2700 KG. AH-1Z can use current Gen A-2-A missiles in the AIM9X series. AH-64 and Z-10, T-129 are limited to previous gen ones. AH-1Z is also considerably faster than all the other three. And that’s before the fact that it’s sensors and such are the best.
Z-10K would have been hilariously outclassed by Indian Apaches if PA bought it, I’m glad they didn’t. 

Secondly, PAs decision made 100% sense considering their previous usage of AH-1. The training, maintenance, weaponry, everything they were familiar with. With the Chinese one they’d have to buy everything from scratch.

Thirdly, Imo PAs plan was always the induction of both heavy and lighter gunships. Which meant the T-129B and AH-1Z together (shared weaponry and Systems too due to NATO, or that was the idea back then, that’s also why AH-1Z made more sense).

But due to how relations deteriorated (something PA could not have predicted), both these helicopter deals ended badly. I don’t think T-129B is coming anymore either. However the new version of the Z-10, the ME, that Pakistan is testing, has brought it above the T-129B imo, especially since China has also developed better weaponry since. It should now be PAs pick for the lighter gunship class while they can wait for Turkey to develop the ATAK-2 and buy that for the heavy class.

Lastly, PAs cobras aren’t 50 year old AH-1G or S models, they are AH-1F models, which are from the 80s, not as old as one might think, but regardless, they have reached the absolute end of their service life and need to go now. PA needs to get something quick, and the only option seems to be Z-10ME, since they seem to have rejected Russian Mi-28 and AH-1Z, T-129B aren’t coming.


CHI RULES said:


> Only 4-5 with considerable impact perhaps few operations in Baluchistan, why we are not getting more.


Currently only 4 in service, there was apparently an order of 5 more, but we’ve not heard of anything about it for nearly 1.5+ years now. Maybe it’s still coming, but any follow up deal has not been in any Russian or Pakistani media. The only indication of another order was in AFM magazine which said Pakistani officials had confirmed it at IDEAS.

While the Mi35 is good, it cannot serve the same way as a dedicated gunship, that’s why PA would not want it in large numbers. It can’t lioter and hover the same way, it’s better for strafing runs (thanks SQ8 for that one).

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## ali_raza

iLION12345_1 said:


> Firstly the difference isn’t a mere 5-15%. The AH-1Z is simply in another class, Z-10 or T-129 cannot take its place unless in 2x the numbers. Its is simply the _best_ gunship on sale anywhere right now. (PS: the super cobra is not AH-1Z, that is older AH-1J). It’s considered half a generation ahead of the Apache itself.
> 
> 
> The Z-10K wasn’t even operable at higher temperatures and altitudes as Pakistan needed it to be, nor did it have the kind of weaponry the AH-1Z did, The hellfire missiles PA was along with it were then a generation ahead of anything China was making.
> To give some specific examples: The AH-1Z has 6 hard points. Apache, Z-10 (all versions) and T-129 have 4. The T-129 and Z-10 can both carry around 1500KG of ordinance. AH-1Z can carry 2700 KG. AH-1Z can use current Gen A-2-A missiles in the AIM9X series. AH-64 and Z-10, T-129 are limited to previous gen ones. AH-1Z is also considerably faster than all the other three. And that’s before the fact that it’s sensors and such are the best.
> Z-10K would have been hilariously outclassed by Indian Apaches if PA bought it, I’m glad they didn’t.
> 
> Secondly, PAs decision made 100% sense considering their previous usage of AH-1. The training, maintenance, weaponry, everything they were familiar with. With the Chinese one they’d have to buy everything from scratch.
> 
> Thirdly, Imo PAs plan was always the induction of both heavy and lighter gunships. Which meant the T-129B and AH-1Z together (shared weaponry and Systems too due to NATO, or that was the idea back then, that’s also why AH-1Z made more sense).
> 
> But due to how relations deteriorated (something PA could not have predicted), both these helicopter deals ended badly. I don’t think T-129B is coming anymore either. However the new version of the Z-10, the ME, that Pakistan is testing, has brought it above the T-129B imo, especially since China has also developed better weaponry since. It should now be PAs pick for the lighter gunship class while they can wait for Turkey to develop the ATAK-2 and buy that for the heavy class.
> 
> Lastly, PAs cobras aren’t 50 year old AH-1G or S models, they are AH-1F models, which are from the 80s, not as old as one might think, but regardless, they have reached the absolute end of their service life and need to go now. PA needs to get something quick, and the only option seems to be Z-10ME, since they seem to have rejected Russian Mi-28 and AH-1Z, T-129B aren’t coming.
> 
> Currently only 4 in service, there was apparently an order of 5 more, but we’ve not heard of anything about it for nearly 1.5+ years now. Maybe it’s still coming, but any follow up deal has not been in any Russian or Pakistani media. The only indication of another order was in AFM magazine which said Pakistani officials had confirmed it at IDEAS.
> 
> While the Mi35 is good, it cannot serve the same way as a dedicated gunship, that’s why PA would not want it in large numbers. It can’t lioter and hover the same way, it’s better for strafing runs (thanks SQ8 for that one).


wht if ah1z comes back to table 
would u rule out such scenerio

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## Dreamer.

iLION12345_1 said:


> Firstly the difference isn’t a mere 5-15%. The AH-1Z is simply in another class, Z-10 or T-129 cannot take its place unless in 2x the numbers. Its is simply the _best_ gunship on sale anywhere right now. (PS: the super cobra is not AH-1Z, that is older AH-1J). It’s considered half a generation ahead of the Apache itself.
> 
> 
> The Z-10K wasn’t even operable at higher temperatures and altitudes as Pakistan needed it to be, nor did it have the kind of weaponry the AH-1Z did, The hellfire missiles PA was along with it were then a generation ahead of anything China was making.
> To give some specific examples: The AH-1Z has 6 hard points. Apache, Z-10 (all versions) and T-129 have 4. The T-129 and Z-10 can both carry around 1500KG of ordinance. AH-1Z can carry 2700 KG. AH-1Z can use current Gen A-2-A missiles in the AIM9X series. AH-64 and Z-10, T-129 are limited to previous gen ones. AH-1Z is also considerably faster than all the other three. And that’s before the fact that it’s sensors and such are the best.
> Z-10K would have been hilariously outclassed by Indian Apaches if PA bought it, I’m glad they didn’t.
> 
> Secondly, PAs decision made 100% sense considering their previous usage of AH-1. The training, maintenance, weaponry, everything they were familiar with. With the Chinese one they’d have to buy everything from scratch.
> 
> Thirdly, Imo PAs plan was always the induction of both heavy and lighter gunships. Which meant the T-129B and AH-1Z together (shared weaponry and Systems too due to NATO, or that was the idea back then, that’s also why AH-1Z made more sense).
> 
> But due to how relations deteriorated (something PA could not have predicted), both these helicopter deals ended badly. I don’t think T-129B is coming anymore either. However the new version of the Z-10, the ME, that Pakistan is testing, has brought it above the T-129B imo, especially since China has also developed better weaponry since. It should now be PAs pick for the lighter gunship class while they can wait for Turkey to develop the ATAK-2 and buy that for the heavy class.
> 
> Lastly, PAs cobras aren’t 50 year old AH-1G or S models, they are AH-1F models, which are from the 80s, not as old as one might think, but regardless, they have reached the absolute end of their service life and need to go now. PA needs to get something quick, and the only option seems to be Z-10ME, since they seem to have rejected Russian Mi-28 and AH-1Z, T-129B aren’t coming.
> 
> Currently only 4 in service, there was apparently an order of 5 more, but we’ve not heard of anything about it for nearly 1.5+ years now. Maybe it’s still coming, but any follow up deal has not been in any Russian or Pakistani media. The only indication of another order was in AFM magazine which said Pakistani officials had confirmed it at IDEAS.
> 
> While the Mi35 is good, it cannot serve the same way as a dedicated gunship, that’s why PA would not want it in large numbers. It can’t lioter and hover the same way, it’s better for strafing runs (thanks SQ8 for that one).


If AH-1Z is as great as you are saying and even a generation ahead of Apache, then why did the PA reject such a significant capability leap? As far as we know it was only blocked if paid for by US money and was available if paid for by Pakistani money. The aircraft were already build and almost ready for delivery....who on earth would be stupid enough to pass such a significant capability enhancement for a few million dollars? Unless there is something we are missing or else this was the stupidest decision ever! Ditto the 8 F-16's withheld for same reason. So what are we missing?

Also, kindly stop dissing the Z-10 and praising the Z-10ME in the same go, you are not fooling anyone here.


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## Raja Porus

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The *5 % -15%* performance variance , between Z-10 and Super Cobra would not have mattered much if we inducted greater number of machines


Angoor khatay hain...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

50 year old Angor , are shot down in first 5 hours of combat 
Because they won't have mechanism to protect them from modern Anti Gunship weaponry

Any weaponry beyond 10 year or Decade behind won't survive any real battlefield


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## khanasifm

iLION12345_1 said:


> Firstly the difference isn’t a mere 5-15%. The AH-1Z is simply in another class, Z-10 or T-129 cannot take its place unless in 2x the numbers. Its is simply the _best_ gunship on sale anywhere right now. (PS: the super cobra is not AH-1Z, that is older AH-1J). It’s considered half a generation ahead of the Apache itself.
> 
> 
> The Z-10K wasn’t even operable at higher temperatures and altitudes as Pakistan needed it to be, nor did it have the kind of weaponry the AH-1Z did, The hellfire missiles PA was along with it were then a generation ahead of anything China was making.
> To give some specific examples: The AH-1Z has 6 hard points. Apache, Z-10 (all versions) and T-129 have 4. The T-129 and Z-10 can both carry around 1500KG of ordinance. AH-1Z can carry 2700 KG. AH-1Z can use current Gen A-2-A missiles in the AIM9X series. AH-64 and Z-10, T-129 are limited to previous gen ones. AH-1Z is also considerably faster than all the other three. And that’s before the fact that it’s sensors and such are the best.
> Z-10K would have been hilariously outclassed by Indian Apaches if PA bought it, I’m glad they didn’t.
> 
> Secondly, PAs decision made 100% sense considering their previous usage of AH-1. The training, maintenance, weaponry, everything they were familiar with. With the Chinese one they’d have to buy everything from scratch.
> 
> Thirdly, Imo PAs plan was always the induction of both heavy and lighter gunships. Which meant the T-129B and AH-1Z together (shared weaponry and Systems too due to NATO, or that was the idea back then, that’s also why AH-1Z made more sense).
> 
> But due to how relations deteriorated (something PA could not have predicted), both these helicopter deals ended badly. I don’t think T-129B is coming anymore either. However the new version of the Z-10, the ME, that Pakistan is testing, has brought it above the T-129B imo, especially since China has also developed better weaponry since. It should now be PAs pick for the lighter gunship class while they can wait for Turkey to develop the ATAK-2 and buy that for the heavy class.
> 
> Lastly, PAs cobras aren’t 50 year old AH-1G or S models, they are AH-1F models, which are from the 80s, not as old as one might think, but regardless, they have reached the absolute end of their service life and need to go now. PA needs to get something quick, and the only option seems to be Z-10ME, since they seem to have rejected Russian Mi-28 and AH-1Z, T-129B aren’t coming.
> 
> Currently only 4 in service, there was apparently an order of 5 more, but we’ve not heard of anything about it for nearly 1.5+ years now. Maybe it’s still coming, but any follow up deal has not been in any Russian or Pakistani media. The only indication of another order was in AFM magazine which said Pakistani officials had confirmed it at IDEAS.
> 
> While the Mi35 is good, it cannot serve the same way as a dedicated gunship, that’s why PA would not want it in large numbers. It can’t lioter and hover the same way, it’s better for strafing runs (thanks SQ8 for that one).



Nothing of the sort thereason ah-1z were orders because there was $$ part of coalition support for military and used to order and keep US industry going as well

same was the case for 8 F-16s subsidized which were not accepted or delivered as subsidy was retracted

There were other goods offered part of coalition support like uh-60 from Afghanistan but we’re rejected as they had taken beating and not much life left which meant would require again overhauls and re lifing to be paid by pak 
end of story 😉


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## Raja Porus

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Any weaponry beyond 10 year or Decade behind won't survive any real battlefield


F16s too?


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## iLION12345_1

ali_raza said:


> wht if ah1z comes back to table
> would u rule out such scenerio


In a world where PAK-US relations weren’t an issue at all, if these came back to the table, they would be the only good choice for PA.




Dreamer. said:


> If AH-1Z is as great as you are saying and even a generation ahead of Apache, then why did the PA reject such a significant capability leap? As far as we know it was only blocked if paid for by US money and was available if paid for by Pakistani money. The aircraft were already build and almost ready for delivery....who on earth would be stupid enough to pass such a significant capability enhancement for a few million dollars? Unless there is something we are missing or else this was the stupidest decision ever! Ditto the 8 F-16's withheld for same reason. So what are we missing?
> 
> Also, kindly stop dissing the Z-10 and praising the Z-10ME in the same go, you are not fooling anyone here.


They did not reject it, they wanted the US to pay because they were dirt poor, that is the reality of it. They were absolutely cash strapped with the war on terror. Otherwise they would not be ordering 12 aircraft (remember that 15 were offered and we only accepted 12) to replace 50 aircraft. AH-1Z is not a cheap aircraft (The weaponry Pakistan wanted with it even more so). There were no banks or such in the US to finance them the same way we do from Turkey and China. They wanted Pakistan to pay all the money upfront.
PA could never have seen such deterioration in relations coming their way, they simply hoped they could convince the US to pay for them by CSF, which frankly they weren’t wrong to try it.

And I will diss and praise what I please based on the reality of the facts. I know how Z-10K performed and how much of a difference Z-10ME makes. I know how they both compare to T-129B and AH-1Z, and I know how good the AH-1Z is. Aik to Pakistanion Ko Thora such bata do to pehle hi gussa kar dete hain.

Z-10M, the one Pakistan tested initially, had a WZ-9C engine making 1000KW of power. The WZ-16 in ME makes 1200+ kW and is better rated for hot and dusty climates. Z10ME can carry more ordinance (which actually brings it on par with its class, it was below the others before), can fly faster, higher, for longer and has better engine reliability due to less load.
Also Z10ME Adds: active and passive countermeasures, (only Passive in the M), missile approach warning system (M had one but not of this size and capability) , new engine exhaust nozzle pointed upwards to reduce infrared signature, new intake filtration systems (dusty climates…) and armor panels, more powerful 1200 kW engine, larger ammunition magazine, appliqué graphene-based armor panels, infrared jammer, and a new IFF interrogator (none of this present in the M).
And I already compared it to the AH-1Z above. 
So how would I call Z-10M comparable to Z-10ME after all of this?
PA has strict standards for what they procure, and the Z-10M was simply not a good helicopter.

Kindly do some basic research before leaving such aggressive comments and becoming emotional next time.


AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 50 year old Angor , are shot down in first 5 hours of combat
> Because they won't have mechanism to protect them from modern Anti Gunship weaponry
> 
> Any weaponry beyond 10 year or Decade behind won't survive any real battlefield


Brother if you think 10 years is too much age for a weapon then Pakistan should retire 95% of its weaponry. Please be realistic with regards to the situation of the country.


khanasifm said:


> Nothing of the sort thereason ah-1z were orders because there was $$ part of coalition support for military and used to order and keep US industry going as well
> 
> same was the case for 8 F-16s subsidized which were not accepted or delivered as subsidy was retracted
> 
> There were other goods offered part of coalition support like uh-60 from Afghanistan but we’re rejected as they had taken beating and not much life left which meant would require again overhauls and re lifing to be paid by pak
> end of story 😉


Obviously there was an element of CSF that pulled the PA towards the AH-1Z, but that does not discount what I said about its capabilities or it logistically making sense for the PA. CSF was just supposed to be the cherry on top. US industry wouldn’t gain anything from Pakistan ordering 12 helicopters and 8 aircraft when they sell hundreds every year.

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## Dreamer.

iLION12345_1 said:


> They did not reject it, they wanted the US to pay because they were dirt poor, that is the reality of it. They were absolutely cash strapped with the war on terror. Otherwise they would not be ordering 12 aircraft (remember that 15 were offered and we only accepted 12) to replace 50 aircraft. AH-1Z is not a cheap aircraft (The weaponry Pakistan wanted with it even more so). There were no banks or such in the US to finance them the same way we do from Turkey and China. They wanted Pakistan to pay all the money upfront.


What upfront?? Planes were built and about to be delivered when Trump blocked them. Once he did, it was clear CSF money would not be usable here. PA should have paid if the capability leap was worth it. Every country buys weapons with their money, so does Pakistan for lot of its purchases. Did PA not need them that much? Only PA can answer this.


iLION12345_1 said:


> PA could never have seen such deterioration in relations coming their way, .


Oh really???? I could have offered the services of my 5 year old if they'd only asked. 

And BTW forseeable or not, there was plenty of time to decide AFTER trump blocked the use of US funds.

Like I said only PA can answer why they rejected to pay for AH-1Z. Was it not needed? or they had better options? Or they had no money at all? (don't mention WoT here because 1. this is circa 2018 we are talking about, 2. people here keep telling us there is no problem with money,).

Personally I believe we could surely have paid for them. If there's a critical requirement that must be fulfilled, than money can be arranged. In my opinion this was a more important requirement than buying new tanks.



iLION12345_1 said:


> And I will diss and praise what I please based on the reality of the facts. [
> I know how Z-10K performed and how much of a difference Z-10ME makes. I know how they both compare to T-129B and AH-1Z, and I know how good the AH-1Z is. Aik to Pakistanion Ko Thora such bata do to pehle hi gussa kar dete hain.


I have no idea what 'such' you are referring to here. I merely thought your comparison was not balanced and that's my opinion. There is no 'gussa' involved.


iLION12345_1 said:


> Z-10M, the one Pakistan tested initially, had a WZ-9C engine making 1000KW of power. The WZ-16 in ME makes 1200+ kW and is better rated for hot and dusty climates. Z10ME can carry more ordinance (which actually brings it on par with its class, it was below the others before), can fly faster, higher, for longer and has better engine reliability due to less load.
> Also Z10ME Adds: active and passive countermeasures, (only Passive in the M), missile approach warning system (M had one but not of this size and capability) , new engine exhaust nozzle pointed upwards to reduce infrared signature, new intake filtration systems (dusty climates…) and armor panels, more powerful 1200 kW engine, larger ammunition magazine, appliqué graphene-based armor panels, infrared jammer, and a new IFF interrogator (none of this present in the M).
> And I already compared it to the AH-1Z above.
> So how would I call Z-10M comparable to Z-10ME after all of this?
> PA has strict standards for what they procure, and the Z-10M was simply not a good helicopter.


Thanks for your detailed comparison. I will reserve my comments for now.


iLION12345_1 said:


> Kindly do some basic research before leaving such aggressive comments and becoming emotional next time.


I was never 'aggressive' or 'emotional'. I merely made an observation based on my understanding, and did so quite politely. It is you who should not get emotional


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## air marshal



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## ali_raza

iLION12345_1 said:


> In a world where PAK-US relations weren’t an issue at all, if these came back to the table, they would be the only good choice for PA.
> 
> 
> 
> They did not reject it, they wanted the US to pay because they were dirt poor, that is the reality of it. They were absolutely cash strapped with the war on terror. Otherwise they would not be ordering 12 aircraft (remember that 15 were offered and we only accepted 12) to replace 50 aircraft. AH-1Z is not a cheap aircraft (The weaponry Pakistan wanted with it even more so). There were no banks or such in the US to finance them the same way we do from Turkey and China. They wanted Pakistan to pay all the money upfront.
> PA could never have seen such deterioration in relations coming their way, they simply hoped they could convince the US to pay for them by CSF, which frankly they weren’t wrong to try it.
> 
> And I will diss and praise what I please based on the reality of the facts. I know how Z-10K performed and how much of a difference Z-10ME makes. I know how they both compare to T-129B and AH-1Z, and I know how good the AH-1Z is. Aik to Pakistanion Ko Thora such bata do to pehle hi gussa kar dete hain.
> 
> Z-10M, the one Pakistan tested initially, had a WZ-9C engine making 1000KW of power. The WZ-16 in ME makes 1200+ kW and is better rated for hot and dusty climates. Z10ME can carry more ordinance (which actually brings it on par with its class, it was below the others before), can fly faster, higher, for longer and has better engine reliability due to less load.
> Also Z10ME Adds: active and passive countermeasures, (only Passive in the M), missile approach warning system (M had one but not of this size and capability) , new engine exhaust nozzle pointed upwards to reduce infrared signature, new intake filtration systems (dusty climates…) and armor panels, more powerful 1200 kW engine, larger ammunition magazine, appliqué graphene-based armor panels, infrared jammer, and a new IFF interrogator (none of this present in the M).
> And I already compared it to the AH-1Z above.
> So how would I call Z-10M comparable to Z-10ME after all of this?
> PA has strict standards for what they procure, and the Z-10M was simply not a good helicopter.
> 
> Kindly do some basic research before leaving such aggressive comments and becoming emotional next time.
> 
> Brother if you think 10 years is too much age for a weapon then Pakistan should retire 95% of its weaponry. Please be realistic with regards to the situation of the country.
> 
> Obviously there was an element of CSF that pulled the PA towards the AH-1Z, but that does not discount what I said about its capabilities or it logistically making sense for the PA. CSF was just supposed to be the cherry on top. US industry wouldn’t gain anything from Pakistan ordering 12 helicopters and 8 aircraft when they sell hundreds every year.


my understanding is that something was discussed in IK first american visit 
and somethings were surely promised
125 million was released on the spot for overhauling and all
i wouldn’t be surprised if we get a surprise about american equipment

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## Primus

ali_raza said:


> my understanding is that something was discussed in IK first american visit
> and somethings were surely promised
> 125 million was released on the spot for overhauling and all
> i wouldn’t be surprised if we get a surprise about american equipment


There was some news about the Ah1z being released. But that's just heresay.... Plus its from khafee


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## ali_raza

Huffal said:


> There was some news about the Ah1z being released. But that's just heresay.... Plus its from khafee


i didn’t say anything about khafee or anyone 
i m just stating facts 
and whts in the news
khafee is the most respected member in our forum i hope he comes back soon
@Khafee

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## iLION12345_1

ali_raza said:


> my understanding is that something was discussed in IK first american visit
> and somethings were surely promised
> 125 million was released on the spot for overhauling and all
> i wouldn’t be surprised if we get a surprise about american equipment


Have not been following that. I tend not to believe in any of the promises until I see something delivered, maybe something was discussed that we don’t know about.


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## Cool_Soldier

There is too much trust deficit between US and Pakistan
Promises were made just to get benefits


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## Invictus01

Huffal said:


> There was some news about the Ah1z being released. But that's just heresay.... Plus its from khafee


Lol that guy can't be trusted for shit 
From JH-7 to Block 72s 
Apparently everything except for the star wars intergalactic space ship has landed in Pakistan
All you need to do is roll down to the nearest PAF base

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## Primus

Invictus01 said:


> Lol that guy can't be trusted for shit
> From JH-7 to Block 72s
> Apparently everything except for the star wars intergalactic space ship has landed in Pakistan
> All you need to do is roll down to the nearest PAF base


NO NO NO you seem to misunderstand. He only made a small claim of a Death star touching down in Sargodha air base.


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## Moon

Does anyone here know the perhour cost of operating a Mi-17? And a Super Mushak?


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## Moon

Moon said:


> Does anyone here know the perhour cost of operating a Mi-17? And a Super Mushak?


I forgot to add, a CH-4 as well.


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## Sifar zero

Moon said:


> Does anyone here know the perhour cost of operating a Mi-17? And a Super Mushak?


I found this from an article.
''Operating costs of the Mi-17 are so low that Colombian helicopter operator Vertical Aviation, in operation for more than 20 years, flies 16 Mi-17s, mainly in oil-support operations. It was the first to operate the big 26-passenger Russian turbine twins in the Western Hemisphere and over the last 10 years has put about 75,000 hours on its fleet".


Moon said:


> Does anyone here know the perhour cost of operating a Mi-17? And a Super Mushak?


Here is PDF regarding the per hour cost to fly a heli.


https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA615276.pdf

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## Moon

Sifar zero said:


> I found this from an article.
> ''Operating costs of the Mi-17 are so low that Colombian helicopter operator Vertical Aviation, in operation for more than 20 years, flies 16 Mi-17s, mainly in oil-support operations. It was the first to operate the big 26-passenger Russian turbine twins in the Western Hemisphere and over the last 10 years has put about 75,000 hours on its fleet".
> 
> Here is PDF regarding the per hour cost to fly a heli.
> 
> 
> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA615276.pdf


Thanks a lot, will definitely study this


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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1424221936436006912

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## ghazi52

Cuirassier

@leftofthepincer
Air observation posts are underrated. 







on 1ˢᵗ September 1965, flying in a L-19, Major Sarfaraz Rabbani directed an artillery shoot on enemy gun positions near the Tawi River, bringing in the might of the 4ᵗʰ Corps Artillery. 14 guns were captured. awarded the Sitara-e-Jurat.

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## GriffinsRule

Sifar zero said:


> I found this from an article.
> ''Operating costs of the Mi-17 are so low that Colombian helicopter operator Vertical Aviation, in operation for more than 20 years, flies 16 Mi-17s, mainly in oil-support operations. It was the first to operate the big 26-passenger Russian turbine twins in the Western Hemisphere and over the last 10 years has put about 75,000 hours on its fleet".
> 
> Here is PDF regarding the per hour cost to fly a heli.
> 
> 
> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA615276.pdf


Great attachment ... briefly went through it. Interesting to see how AH-1Z dominates in the attack heli category and the newer Mi-17 versions are no slouch in transport role combined w cost effectiveness.

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## hassan1



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## Great Janjua

The AW109 helicopter can climb at the rate of 9.8m a second. The maximum and cruise speeds of the helicopter are 311km/h and 285km/h respectively.

The service ceiling of the AW109 is 5,974m and the maximum endurance is four hours and 51 minutes. The helicopter weighs around 1,590kg and the maximum take-off weight is 3,000kg.

The cockpit can be equipped with a global positioning navigation system, weather radar and the customer’s choice of frequency-modulated secure communications.



The optional equipment includes a forward-looking infrared and a low light level television camera for surveillance, observation and search, a Spectrolab SX-16 searchlight, a retractable MA3 lighting kit 

A perfect choice for our northern areas since it was built for the mountains.And we could have gotten TOT since the Italians are quite nice to us but we chose the French Eurocopter Fennec instead. 

AW109 has my heart


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## Hassan Guy

Great Janjua said:


> The AW109 helicopter can climb at the rate of 9.8m a second. The maximum and cruise speeds of the helicopter are 311km/h and 285km/h respectively.
> 
> The service ceiling of the AW109 is 5,974m and the maximum endurance is four hours and 51 minutes. The helicopter weighs around 1,590kg and the maximum take-off weight is 3,000kg.
> 
> The cockpit can be equipped with a global positioning navigation system, weather radar and the customer’s choice of frequency-modulated secure communications.
> 
> 
> 
> The optional equipment includes a forward-looking infrared and a low light level television camera for surveillance, observation and search, a Spectrolab SX-16 searchlight, a retractable MA3 lighting kit
> 
> A perfect choice for our northern areas since it was built for the mountains.And we could have gotten TOT since the Italians are quite nice to us but we chose the French Eurocopter Fennec instead.
> 
> AW109 has my heart


China builds this chopper under a joint-venture.


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## Abid123

We need atleast 100 modern Attack Helicopters.

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## Great Janjua

Hassan Guy said:


> China builds this chopper under a joint-venture.


That is the panther heli from France it looks quite similar.


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## mudas777

Invictus01 said:


> Lol that guy can't be trusted for shit
> From JH-7 to Block 72s
> Apparently everything except for the star wars intergalactic space ship has landed in Pakistan
> All you need to do is roll down to the nearest PAF base




We never seem to listen and learn, what else US have to say to us that we will understand short of piss off.


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## Hassan Guy

Great Janjua said:


> That is the panther heli from France it looks quite similar.


They build the A109 too 


https://www.changhe.com/product.html?category=8

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## Ahmet Pasha

GriffinsRule said:


> Great attachment ... briefly went through it. Interesting to see how AH-1Z dominates in the attack heli category and the newer Mi-17 versions are no slouch in transport role combined w cost effectiveness.


Mi17 I believe is more robust of a work horse when compared to its American cousin Black Hawk.


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## Great Janjua

Hassan Guy said:


> They build the A109 too
> 
> 
> https://www.changhe.com/product.html?category=8
> 
> 
> View attachment 768734
> 
> View attachment 768735
> 
> View attachment 768736


What lucky sods. If we had 40 of these like we have for the euro copter fennec from france the Italian would have happily gave us TOT.But missed opportunity.

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## Dreamer.

Great Janjua said:


> The AW109 helicopter can climb at the rate of 9.8m a second. The maximum and cruise speeds of the helicopter are 311km/h and 285km/h respectively.
> 
> The service ceiling of the AW109 is 5,974m and the maximum endurance is four hours and 51 minutes. The helicopter weighs around 1,590kg and the maximum take-off weight is 3,000kg.
> 
> The cockpit can be equipped with a global positioning navigation system, weather radar and the customer’s choice of frequency-modulated secure communications.
> 
> 
> 
> The optional equipment includes a forward-looking infrared and a low light level television camera for surveillance, observation and search, a Spectrolab SX-16 searchlight, a retractable MA3 lighting kit
> 
> A perfect choice for our northern areas since it was built for the mountains.And we could have gotten TOT since the Italians are quite nice to us but we chose the French Eurocopter Fennec instead.
> 
> AW109 has my heart


There is no helicopter in the world that can compete with the Ecureuil/Fennec when it comes to operating in high altitude mountainous terrain. I think it is the only helicopter in the world to have landed on Mt. Everest. Can the AW-109 even attempt this?

PA chose the right helicopter for its needs. Himalayas are the highest area in the world and not comparable to european mountain areas. After the erstwhile Lama, it is the only helicopter that has operated successfully in this region. It is heavily used in Nepal aswell for the same reason.

You need to look at how many AW-109's are used in really high altitude rescue scenarios anywhere in the world compared to the Fennec? Even other than himalayas, in very high altitude environments the Fennec is preferred around the world.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Dreamer. said:


> There is no helicopter in the world that can compete with the Ecureuil/Fennec when it comes to operating in high altitude mountainous terrain. I think it is the only helicopter in the world to have landed on Mt. Everest. Can the AW-109 even attempt this?
> 
> PA chose the right helicopter for its needs. Himalayas are the highest area in the world and not comparable to european mountain areas. After the erstwhile Lama, it is the only helicopter that has operated successfully in this region. It is heavily used in Nepal aswell.
> 
> You need to look at how many AW-109's are used in really high altitude rescue scenarios anywhere in the world compared to the Fennec? Even other than himalayas, in very high altitude environments the Fennec is preferred around the world.


Not AW109 bit I believe AW139 has awesome hot and high credentials. It is not used in Siachen cuz I believe paf doesn't fly helicopters in that area??


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## Great Janjua

Dreamer. said:


> There is no helicopter in the world that can compete with the Ecureuil/Fennec when it comes to operating in high altitude mountainous terrain. I think it is the only helicopter in the world to have landed on Mt. Everest. Can the AW-109 even attempt this?
> 
> PA chose the right helicopter for its needs. Himalayas are the highest area in the world and not comparable to european mountain areas. After the erstwhile Lama, it is the only helicopter that has operated successfully in this region. It is heavily used in Nepal aswell.
> 
> You need to look at how many AW-109's are used in really high altitude rescue scenarios anywhere in the world compared to the Fennec? Even other than himalayas, in very high altitude environments the Fennec is preferred around the world.


You may be right but to my heart the AW109 is a special platform it can perform a plethora of missions more than the Eurocopter fennec at least (I hate that little shit Eurocopter....Maybe it's personal grudge)whilst being affordable.And the best bit is the Italians are TOT friendly.But what can we do time has past.


Ahmet Pasha said:


> Not AW109 bit I believe AW139 has awesome hot and high credentials. It is not used in Siachen cuz I believe paf doesn't fly helicopters in that area??


Aw109 is rated for hot and high but never trialed it


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## Great Janjua

Army aviation needs to get it's shit together.The MI 171s are perfectly capable medium lift helis they are here for a good while.But what about the pumas they need a good replacement, I was thinking of super pumas the bigger brother of the pumas they compliment the MI 171s perfectly,These two platforms are perfect,Quite similar in troop and cargo capacity whilst being cheap and reliable, Whilst the Bell 412 act as the perfect balance for these two platforms. In short we need Super Pumas


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## Yasser76

Great Janjua said:


> Army aviation needs to get it's shit together.The MI 171s are perfectly capable medium lift helis they are here for a good while.But what about the pumas they need a good replacement, I was thinking of super pumas the bigger brother of the pumas they compliment the MI 171s perfectly,These two platforms are perfect,Quite similar in troop and cargo capacity whilst being cheap and reliable, Whilst the Bell 412 act as the perfect balance for these two platforms. In short we need Super Pumas



UK is looking closely at AW149 which it sees as perfect Puma replacement, makes sense for us to look at it too considering we operate the AW139 in significant numbers now. Better give money to the Italians then to the f**king French.


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## Great Janjua

Yasser76 said:


> UK is looking closely at AW149 which it sees as perfect Puma replacement, makes sense for us to look at it too considering we operate the AW139 in significant numbers now. Better give money to the Italians then to the f**king French.


Best part is Italians will give us TOT if we order enough platforms but PAA doesn't learn

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## ghazi52

*Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography *· 

Unique angle of MI-17-1

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## PanzerKiel

Both pilots safe...

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## python-000

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 769143
> View attachment 769144
> 
> Both pilots safe...


Thanks to ALLAH All Mighty...

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## TsAr

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 769143
> View attachment 769144
> 
> Both pilots safe...


Gujrat/Gujranwala area


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## mingle

TsAr said:


> Gujrat/Gujranwala area


Rahwali cannt area right by ISSB house


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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427493170871476225

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## Windjammer



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## alimobin memon

t129 is dead ?

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## Imran Khan

alimobin memon said:


> t129 is dead ?


its dead since many years . its alive in imagination of fans now

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## Reichmarshal

Its dead as far as PAA is concerned, other wise its doing just fine in turkey n a few other countries soon

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## alimobin memon

So what are options no Z10 ME and Mi35 ?


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## khanasifm

Not sure if there is any Interest for civilian use which was also captured by aw-139









A proud, profitable takeoff


Chinese-made helicopters ride revolutionary tech, cost benefits, promise to transform global aviation industry




www.chinadaily.com.cn

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## ghazi52

Unique Angle of MI-17-1.

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## syed_yusuf

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 778013
> 
> 
> 
> Unique Angle of MI-17-1.


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## ghazi52

Rescue three mountaineers recently

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439972616111108107

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## Keysersoze

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439972616111108107


Is this credible?


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## Raja Porus

Keysersoze said:


> Is this credible?


This news has been known for quite some time. @iLION12345_1


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## araz

Desert Fox 1 said:


> This news has been known for quite some time. @iLION12345_1


I thought so too. We have been hearing of this order for at least 1 year if not more. So perhaps the order has been finalized. I still dont understand what is happening on the attack helicopter front and what PAA is doing.
A

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## Keysersoze

araz said:


> I thought so too. We have been hearing of this order for at least 1 year if not more. So perhaps the order has been finalized. I still dont understand what is happening on the attack helicopter front and what PAA is doing.
> A


It was always my understanding that these were for SOF missions. The ability to drop operators then give them CAS. In a full war they would still be of use as tank busters with the Kornets.

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## Abid123

«The Chinese side will import 36 Ka-52K Katran or Ka-52M heavy-armed helicopters from Russia for $20 million each».

Only $20 million per helicopter. This is such a good deal. The KA-52 is among the best Attack Helicopters in the world. Arguably among the top 3 best in the world. We signed a deal for 30 T129 ATAK for $1.5 billion. That’s $50 million for each helicopter. Dont Get me wrong. The T129 ATAK is a good Attack Helicopter dont get me wrong, but $50 million for each helicopter.... Not worth it. Let alone the fact that we are not receiving them due to the Engine being American origin

Pakistan could have bought 75 KA-52 Attack Helicopters for just $1.5 billion.

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## khanasifm

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439972616111108107


Is it confined this news was also shared a few years back


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## Keysersoze

Abid123 said:


> «The Chinese side will import 36 Ka-52K Katran or Ka-52M heavy-armed helicopters from Russia for $20 million each».
> 
> Only $20 million per helicopter. This is such a good deal. The KA-52 is among the best Attack Helicopters in the world. Arguably among the top 3 best in the world. We signed a deal for 30 T129 ATAK for $1.5 billion. That’s $50 million for each helicopter. Dont Get me wrong. The T129 ATAK is a good Attack Helicopter dont get me wrong, but $50 million for each helicopter.... Not worth it. Let alone the fact that we are not receiving them due to the Engine being American origin
> 
> Pakistan could have bought 75 KA-52 Attack Helicopters for just $1.5 billion.


I don't think the Russians would sell them to Pakistan. They are still wrapped up with India.

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## Primus

Keysersoze said:


> I don't think the Russians would sell them to Pakistan. They are still wrapped up with India.


Well we were given a blank check by them regarding military endeavours... Just saying

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## Keysersoze

Huffal said:


> Well we were given a blank check by them regarding military endeavours... Just saying


Yeah However IIRC they didn't sell the Pantsir when requested ( I could be wrong about that) A KA52 order will get the Indian knickers in a twist.

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## Primus

Keysersoze said:


> Yeah However IIRC they didn't sell the Pantsir when requested ( I could be wrong about that) A KA52 order will get the Indian knickers in a twist.


@PanzerKiel

Is the pantsir back on the table since the blank cheque was offered or is the army still looking for alternatives?

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## Great Janjua

Huffal said:


> @PanzerKiel
> 
> Is the pantsir back on the table since the blank cheque was offered or is the army still looking for alternatives?


I doubt it. Heartbroken, we might have moved on from the deal. India had a big role to play. According to the fellow you tagged.

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## Keysersoze

Huffal said:


> @PanzerKiel
> 
> Is the pantsir back on the table since the blank cheque was offered or is the army still looking for alternatives?


TBH the only thing that would really excite me would be a layered integrated AD system with no gaps S400/s300 /TOR and pantsir. Combine that with The other airforce assets and no more "Surgical strikes"


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## Gripen9

Huffal said:


> @PanzerKiel
> 
> Is the pantsir back on the table since the blank cheque was offered or is the army still looking for alternatives?


I believe PA bought FM-90 instead.


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## Keysersoze

Gripen9 said:


> I believe PA bought FM-90 instead.


The FM 90 is a Crotale analogue. i believe They replaced the Crotales.


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## Gripen9

Keysersoze said:


> The FM 90 is a Crotale analogue. i believe They replaced the Crotales.


Crotale is operated by the PAF not PA. FM 90 and Pantasir missile range profile are quite similar ~ 20 kms. Only thing missing is the 30mm twin cannons. FM 90 does have separate tracking/acquisition radar vehicle though.


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## iLION12345_1

Keysersoze said:


> Is this credible?





Desert Fox 1 said:


> This news has been known for quite some time. @iLION12345_1





araz said:


> I thought so too. We have been hearing of this order for at least 1 year if not more. So perhaps the order has been finalized. I still dont understand what is happening on the attack helicopter front and what PAA is doing.
> A


Originally reported in Air forces monthly magazine, they claimed an official from PA at IDEAS had confirmed it. That was over 1.5 years ago. Maybe it is credible, its just taking far longer than it should. It makes sense from a requirement perspective too. I guess we wait and see a bit longer.


Huffal said:


> @PanzerKiel
> 
> Is the pantsir back on the table since the blank cheque was offered or is the army still looking for alternatives?


Alternatives, sadly.


Keysersoze said:


> It was always my understanding that these were for SOF missions. The ability to drop operators then give them CAS. In a full war they would still be of use as tank busters with the Kornets.


They are not the best for SOF insertion, not enough space for a full team, can be used in a pinch. 
Their best use is Hot evacuations/MEDEVACs and CAS/Gun runs. Currently they’re being used to cover convoys in BL and FATA, though some part of me thinks that’s out of necessity due to not having anything better given the age of AH-1F (though it should still be perfectly fine for hunting terrorists, so maybe I’m wrong too). Kornets cannot be operated from a helicopter. PA likely bought other missiles for this purpose.

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## iLION12345_1

araz said:


> I thought so too. We have been hearing of this order for at least 1 year if not more. So perhaps the order has been finalized. I still dont understand what is happening on the attack helicopter front and what PAA is doing.
> A


They’re doing what they can. The way I see it, T-129B deal is basically dead, but it depends on how long PA thinks they can wait. The plan was to have light, medium and heavy gunships altogether.

Light is covered by Fennecs, T-129B could have been the medium, AH-1Z while it is a medium helicopter due to its capabilities it’s already bridging the gap between Heavy and medium. 

Right now I think the military will either buy Z-10ME for medium and then for heavy they have either T-929 or a Chinese heavy gunship as options. If they buy Z10ME the Chinese heavy becomes more appealing. If they think they can wait and still end up getting T-129B sometime down the line, the Turkish heavy becomes more appealing.

While imo Z-10ME is better than T-129B, PA wants the Turkish option still, maybe because they think they can do more with it or because they don’t want to rely solely on China, it may be due to easier credit lines as well. Many factors come in to play, not just the performance of the aircraft. Regardless, PA will get something sooner or later because their roadmap of modernizing all cores obviously has aviation in it as well, what they get depends on how long they can realistically wait and keep AH1Fs flying (a few of those have been retired already).


Abid123 said:


> «The Chinese side will import 36 Ka-52K Katran or Ka-52M heavy-armed helicopters from Russia for $20 million each».
> 
> Only $20 million per helicopter. This is such a good deal. The KA-52 is among the best Attack Helicopters in the world. Arguably among the top 3 best in the world. We signed a deal for 30 T129 ATAK for $1.5 billion. That’s $50 million for each helicopter. Dont Get me wrong. The T129 ATAK is a good Attack Helicopter dont get me wrong, but $50 million for each helicopter.... Not worth it. Let alone the fact that we are not receiving them due to the Engine being American origin
> 
> Pakistan could have bought 75 KA-52 Attack Helicopters for just $1.5 billion.


I think you’re severely overestimating the KA-52 as well as misunderstanding it’s role. The KA-52 is a good helicopter surely, but it’s _*not*_ a support gunship. It _*cannot*_ do the same roles as T-129B, AH-1Z, Z-10ME etc. 

Its a scout helicopter meant for quick strikes (hence its usage for ship-borne roles). It’s not well suited to hovering in one place for extended periods of time providing cover to troops on the ground, which is what we need. Hence we have no use for the KA-52, it doesn’t perform the role we need a helicopter to perform. 

The Russian helicopter for this role is the Mi-28, which FYI, we did test, and imo it could still be a realistic contender for PAs heavy gunship role, however how logistics would work with us having a medium gunship from another country, that’s up to PA to decide Wether it’s worth it. Given how some of our other potential deals with Russia went, KA-52 might have seen the same fate as T-129B anyways. And I have a feeling our second order of Mi35M might have as well.

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## HRK

Huffal said:


> Well we were given a blank check by them regarding military endeavours... Just saying


only issue with that cheque is that it does not mention the detail of drawing bank ... hence its too much blank ....

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## Raja Porus

Huffal said:


> @PanzerKiel
> 
> Is the pantsir back on the table since the blank cheque was offered or is the army still looking for alternatives?


Chinese most probably like Sky Dragon 12 and FK-1000


Gripen9 said:


> I believe PA bought FM-90 instead.


FM-90 was bought many years ago, we want a different system.


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## Keysersoze

iLION12345_1 said:


> They are not the best for SOF insertion, not enough space for a full team, can be used in a pinch.
> Their best use is Hot evacuations/MEDEVACs and CAS/Gun runs. Currently they’re being used to cover convoys in BL and FATA, though some part of me thinks that’s out of necessity due to not having anything better given the age of AH-1F (though it should still be perfectly fine for hunting terrorists, so maybe I’m wrong too). Kornets cannot be operated from a helicopter. PA likely bought other missiles for this purpose.


It can take an 8 men and that used to be the size of a team unless something has changed ( Or the PA uses different numbers)

If the Kornets are not for the MI35 what did they buy them for?


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## iLION12345_1

Keysersoze said:


> It can take an 8 men and that used to be the size of a team unless something has changed ( Or the PA uses different numbers)
> 
> If the Kornets are not for the MI35 what did they buy them for?


SF teams go up and down in size, plus with 8 people in that space it’s rather cramped, you have to remember they’re carrying a lot of equipment with them. As I said it’s totally possible but it’s not the best heli For it.

The Kornets are ground based-ATGMs, that’s what we bought them for. PA has been stockpiling newer ATGMs and MANPADs for a while to complement older systems. 

Kornet doesn’t have a Helicopter launched variant, at least not one that was actually sold/mass produced.

PA likely bought 9M120M ATAKA for use on the Mi-35Ms In Anti-tank role. 9M120 and 9K121 are the Russian Helicopter fired missiles.

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## Keysersoze

iLION12345_1 said:


> SF teams go up and down in size, plus with 8 people in that space it’s rather cramped, you have to remember they’re carrying a lot of equipment with them. As I said it’s totally possible but it’s not the best heli For it.
> 
> The Kornets are ground based-ATGMs, that’s what we bought them for. PA has been stockpiling newer ATGMs and MANPADs for a while to complement older systems.
> 
> Kornet doesn’t have a Helicopter launched variant, at least not one that was actually sold/mass produced.
> 
> PA likely bought 9M120M ATAKA for use on the Mi-35Ms In Anti-tank role. 9M120 and 9K121 are the Russian Helicopter fired missiles.


Lol I have jumped out of a few helicopters in my time but if you are assaulting a position you will be stripped down kit wise (belt kit order) but if they are inserting for a more sneaky beaky op then another option would be better.

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## iLION12345_1

Keysersoze said:


> Lol I have jumped out of a few helicopters in my time but if you are assaulting a position you will be stripped down kit wise (belt kit order) but if they are inserting for a more sneaky beaky op then another option would be better.


Russian air borne units used it for insertions a lot in the afghan and other wars, they had hundreds of these. We have 4.
However we don’t really have such a need; For COIN Ops there aren’t many hot-insertions to warrant using these over an Mi-17. Maybe when the war was at its height, but even then most Ops would be slow and controlled instead of an assault, for which you’d just flatten the area with CAS and then send in troops deployed nearby.
(The SSG did fast-rope into enemy controlled areas to great effect many times but I assume these would be quieter Ops with much more men than 3-4 helicopters can carry and with teams larger than 8 people). 

Maybe when PA gets it’s other helicopters and there’s a larger number of Mi-35 they will be relegated to SF Insertion Use. However so far I’ve only seen them used for covering convoys And CAS.


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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> The SSG did fast-rope into enemy controlled areas to great effect many times but I assume these would be quieter Ops with much more men than 3-4 helicopters can carry and with teams larger than 8 people


We used cobras to to provide gunship support and cover to the Bell and MI17s


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## khanasifm

Keysersoze said:


> It can take an 8 men and that used to be the size of a team unless something has changed ( Or the PA uses different numbers)
> 
> If the Kornets are not for the MI35 what did they buy them for?



a section is 9 or 11 men lowest unit of army so it can take a section

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## iLION12345_1

khanasifm said:


> a section is 9 or 11 menthe lowest unit of army so it can take a section


i guess you meant can’t? and even then, SF teams change in size from regulars.

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## Keysersoze

khanasifm said:


> a section is 9 or 11 men lowest unit of army so it can take a section


An army section was usually 8 men and there were discussions about SOF teams being 8-12. Odd numbers are always an anathema to me as it doesn't allow a "Buddy" system.


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## PanzerKiel

A section is 10 men based around two MG1A3s. Even though Mi35 Can carry a section sized strength inside it, but it isn't being used on that role by us at the moment.

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## Keysersoze

PanzerKiel said:


> A section is 10 men based around two MG1A3s. Even though Mi35 Can carry a section sized strength inside it, but it isn't being used on that role by us at the moment.


The MG3 is really cumbersome They need to get a LMG. Surprised POF don't make one.


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## PanzerKiel

Keysersoze said:


> The MG3 is really cumbersome They need to get a LMG. Surprised POF don't make one.


MG3 on LMG role is not cumbersome.... Pretty light with regards to its utility.

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## TsAr

Keysersoze said:


> Yeah However IIRC they didn't sell the Pantsir when requested ( I could be wrong about that) A KA52 order will get the Indian knickers in a twist.


Few units of Pantsir were already delivered for training purposes, but PA did not pursue the order due to some issues other then payments.

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## iLION12345_1

TsAr said:


> Few units of Pantsir were already delivered for training purposes, but PA did not pursue the order due to some issues other then payments.


not delivered, PA units went to Russia for training. Russia pulled out of the deal due to external reasons, take a guess.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> Russia pulled out of the deal due to external reasons


AFAIK We pulled out because the Russians were unable to meetetge timeline we had set.

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## Moon

I know this is a silly question, but is there a way a fixed winged aircraft could be equipped with Ventral Machine gun turrets (like a helicopter) and be used as a cheap CAS aircraft for counter terrorism? 
Something which could fly for 6+ hours and continuously provide fire power/ ISR for troops at a moment's notice?
I have see designs of OV-1s being modified for a similar task.


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## Shabi1

Moon said:


> I know this is a silly question, but is there a way a fixed winged aircraft could be equipped with Ventral Machine gun turrets (like a helicopter) and be used as a cheap CAS aircraft for counter terrorism?
> Something which could fly for 6+ hours and continuously provide fire power/ ISR for troops at a moment's notice?
> I have see designs of OV-1s being modified for a similar task.


Yes search C-295 Gunship Jordan conversion on google. These are mini gunships that they used to replace aging AH-1s in COIN role.


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## python-000

Whats is the Status of new Attack Helicopter Doctrine for PAA...!!!


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## Moon

Shabi1 said:


> Yes search C-295 Gunship Jordan conversion on google. These are mini gunships that they used to replace aging AH-1s in COIN role.


Those are side mounted, trainable guns. I meant a ventrally mounted guns like in helicopters.


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## Shabi1

Moon said:


> Those are side mounted, trainable guns. I meant a ventrally mounted guns like in helicopters.


US is putting those on retractable arrangement on Ospreys. But ventral mounted turrets don't work on fast movers.

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## Moon

Shabi1 said:


> It's got that too.


Really? That's news to me.... Anywho why don't we get one of those bad boys? I don't think the conversion (guns only) is that much, it could be extremely effective against guerrilla warfare.
Plus C-235s don't cost that much to operate in the first place. We're missing out.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

python-000 said:


> Whats is the Status of new Attack Helicopter Doctrine for PAA...!!!


They're either waiting for Turkey's indigenous engine to power the T129 (or T629), or they're going for a Chinese solution (e.g., Z-10). 

There's no other plausible outcome.

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## Moon

Shabi1 said:


> US is putting those on retractable arrangement on Ospreys. But ventral mounted turrets don't work on fast movers.


Maybe tail mounted then? Like in IL-76s?


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## Sayfullah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They're either waiting for Turkey's indigenous engine to power the T129 (or T629), or they're going for a Chinese solution (e.g., Z-10).
> 
> There's no other plausible outcome.



T929?


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## Dazzler

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> T929?


Z10 is almost a done deal.

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## iLION12345_1

Dazzler said:


> Z10 is almost a done deal.


Agreed, Z-10ME is basically the only realistic option for a medium weight gunship for PA atm Unless they want to wait years for T-129 (a deal they’ve basically already pulled out of)
They might still buy T929 or another heavy gunship later down the line when it is ready. (I’d also watch out for a Chinese offering in this regard, they’re likely working on one). Mi28NM also remains a unlikely but possible candidate, obviously the Chinese one would be the best owing to how logistics will pan out, but T929 might be more appealing due to the Turkey factor.

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## TOPGUN

Dazzler said:


> Z10 is almost a done deal.




Dazzler bro is it Z-10ME ?


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## Dazzler

TOPGUN said:


> Dazzler bro is it Z-10ME ?


Improved ME.

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## Sayfullah

Dazzler said:


> Improved ME.



Is it better than t129?


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## TOPGUN

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Is it better than t129?



Yes

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## python-000

TOPGUN said:


> Dazzler bro is it Z-10ME ?


It is much better to go first for Z-10ME from China & after that we can get T-929 from Turkey...


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## iLION12345_1

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Is it better than t129?


Definitely. Older Z-10s had weak engines and a lack of particle filters that caused issues in our environments, however the ME variant is massively upgraded and the ones PA gets will be further modified to our standard. I’m hoping they get Millimeter wave radars with them, they have been tested on Z-10ME and are standard on Z-19.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They're either waiting for Turkey's indigenous engine to power the T129 (or T629), or they're going for a Chinese solution (e.g., Z-10).
> 
> There's no other plausible outcome.


There is an alternative with the Italians in the future in AW249

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## Scorpiooo

GriffinsRule said:


> There is an alternative with the Italians in the future in AW249


Its to much away still on papers ... can be wait that much long


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## sparten

The decision to not buy the Z10 was a mistake. Chasing the AH1Z and T129 cost us.


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## TOPGUN

sparten said:


> The decision to not buy the Z10 was a mistake. Chasing the AH1Z and T129 cost us.



And now the decision to buy Z-10ME is in the mix so it all worked out.


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## Reichmarshal

sparten said:


> The decision to not buy the Z10 was a mistake. Chasing the AH1Z and T129 cost us.



PAA was always going to buy the Z10.
It was in Pakistan for test n evaluations and the input from PAA was in co operated into Z 10 making it a better machine all round.

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## Moon

sparten said:


> The decision to not buy the Z10 was a mistake. Chasing the AH1Z and T129 cost us.


We are definitely buying the Z-10, just not the early variant. I believe a more "specialized" variant is being developed for Pakistan's hot and high requirements. I guess somebody in GHQ knew Americans weren't going to deliver.

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## iLION12345_1

Moon said:


> We are definitely buying the Z-10, just not the early variant. I believe a more "specialized" variant is being developed for Pakistan's hot and high requirements. I guess somebody in GHQ knew Americans weren't going to deliver.


The ME is already specialized for those roles as it was developed after the M variant was rejected by PAA. It has more powerful engines that work better in high altitudes as well as hot temperatures as well as a proper dust filtration system That the M variant did not have, The rest of the upgrades on it pretty significant too. PAs version will have some further customizations on top of that, something like our VT4s.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Need about 100 Z-10 Gunships , we have lot of territory to cover
If it was me Z-10 would have already reached 60-70 Units figures by now between 2015-2020

Z-10 was no strings attached Gunship

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## iLION12345_1

TOPGUN said:


> And now the decision to buy Z-10ME is in the mix so it all worked out.



ideally PA would have wanted Both AH-1Z and T129B as they could use the same weapons package and worked on NATO standard systems, continuing on with PAs current fleet of helicopters, that’s why Z-10 was overlooked (plus the fact that original Z10M PA tested wasn’t good enough, especially its engines).

However with both those options off the table and Z-10ME now available, That option seems likely, that will also dictate PAs future heavy gunship pick as they’ll want to go for a system that works well alongside Z-10 and can hopefully use the same weapons and parts (hence a Chinese Heavy gunship would be ideal). However T929 and other options will likely remain on the table.


AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Need about 100 Z-10 Gunships , we have lot of territory to cover
> If it was me Z-10 would have already reached 60-70 Units figures by now between 2015-2020


Too many. Too expensive. And it’s unlikely PA will get any sort of ToT with it sadly. 
PA will likely order 30 in the first batch (or in total). Keep in mind they don’t just want one type. 
Fennecs, Mi35M3s (possibly more on order), Z-10MEs and hopefully a future heavy gunship will bring the fleet close to a hundred.


AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Need about 100 Z-10 Gunships , we have lot of territory to cover
> If it was me Z-10 would have already reached 60-70 Units figures by now between 2015-2020
> 
> Z-10 was no strings attached Gunship


Thinking about the broader picture with logistics, ease of use/training as well as ToT and local upgradation/modification options, T-129B made total sense, especially with the version of Z-10 that was present then. Not to mention putting all our eggs in the China basket isn’t the smartest thing anyways, however Now things are different and the Z-10ME is a very good gunship, better than T-129B in fact. So let’s hope they come in soon, the delay in purchase has been bad but at least we’re getting a significantly improved product.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Super Cobra = Strings Attached - no chance (2009-2015 people claimed it was being ordered)
T-129 = Engine , Strings Attached , Slow procurement

Z-10 = Abundant , Armed with Rockets , proper gunship - no strings attached we can easily get 100 units

The gap needs to be filled urgently for Gunship and also Increase the Tanks Count
The tank count is very loop sided

In Ideal case ,

we need 100 Gunships
We need 1500 Tanks (Newer Generation)


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

iLION12345_1 said:


> Too many. Too expensive. And it’s unlikely PA will get any sort of ToT with it sadly.
> PA will likely order 30 in the first batch (or in total). Keep in mind they don’t just want one type.
> Fennecs, Mi35M3s (possibly more on order), Z-10MEs and hopefully a future heavy gunship will bring the fleet close to a hundred.


The PAA's dedicated attack helicopter requirement is in the 60-75-range.

The bulk of those would be a 5-7-ton type (e.g. Z-10ME) and a few -- ideally -- a 9-10-ton type.

It's worth noting that the 60-75 range was around since the late 1980s. The PAA came up with that figure when it just inducted the AH-1S. However, through modern attack helicopters are substantially more capable (across range, payload, electronics), the PAA didn't reduce the required numbers. So, it wants major net-new improvements to its capabilities. Ideally, we'd find a way to re-life the AH-1F/S to keep them going for CT/COIN, while totally dedicating the new helicopters to anti-armour operations.

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## Pandora

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Super Cobra = Strings Attached - no chance (2009-2015 people claimed it was being ordered)
> T-129 = Engine , Strings Attached , Slow procurement
> 
> Z-10 = Abundant , Armed with Rockets , proper gunship - no strings attached we can easily get 100 units



Every thing comes with strings attached even Chinese.

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAA's dedicated attack helicopter requirement is in the 60-75-range.
> 
> The bulk of those would be a 5-7-ton type (e.g. Z-10ME) and a few -- ideally -- a 9-10-ton type.


I would agree, the Armed Fennecs are part of the overall requirement too (which is why I was placing it near 100). PA does use them to cover and support armored formations along with AH-1s currently.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

iLION12345_1 said:


> I would agree, the Armed Fennecs are part of the overall requirement too (which is why I was placing it near 100). PA does use them to cover and support armored formations along with AH-1s currently.


True.

But I wish we could've picked up a license to build a low-cost 1-2-ton helicopter. There was some momentum behind it back in the 1970s (there was a lot of interest in building stuff at Kamra at the time -- e.g., Mushshak, Saab 105, a fighter to replace the F-6, etc). With the emergence of ATGM and laser-guided rockets, these small beaters would've been really useful for close air support, special operations, recon/scouting, etc.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

As stated by @*Bilal Khan (Quwa) *, the gap has existed since 1980's

I remember reading stories when Pakistani Forces used to request Chinook Type multi purpose Helicopters and Also AWACs from USA but such force multipliers were always denied to Pakistan Military, these assets were still denied even during the WOT era.

If Gap existed 50-60 Units in 1980 you can imagine how much more the need is 40 years to present date

The chase behind the Super Cobra and T-129 , has cost considerable 13 year delay just from initial plans , possibilities and negotiations and then learning about no arrival or late arrivals or deliveries

Mean while across the border , Helicopters are manufactured on Supply Chain , Month/to Month gunships are being produced , even with basic design , these are loaded with Rockets and other heavy Ammunition


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> As stated by Bilal , the gap has existed since 1980's
> 
> I remember reading stories when Pakistani Forces used to request Chinook Type multi purpose Helicopters and Also AWACs from USA but such force multipliers were always denied to Pakistan Military
> 
> If Gap existed 50-60 Units in 1980 you can imagine how much more the need is 40 years to present date
> 
> The chase behind the Super Cobra and T-129 , has cost considerable 13 year delay just from initial plans , possibilities and negotiations and then learning about no arrival or late arrivals or deliveries
> 
> Mean while across the border , Helicopters are manufactured on Supply Chain , Month/to Month gunships are being produced , even with basic design , these are loaded with Rockets and other heavy Ammunition


Well in the 1980s, the requirement was for around 60 AH-1s. However, the current-gen helicopters (e.g., Z-10ME, T129, etc) are much more capable and sophisticated than the old Cobra. So, if the PAA's requirements were static, they would've limited the requirement to 30 T129/Z-10s. Instead, they're aiming for 60 such helicopters (thus accounting for the modern gap).

IMHO, the mistake wasn't chasing the AH-1Z or T129. Rather, the mistake was not copying India in designing (or at least pursuing) a common platform for both a 6-7-ton utility chopper and a 5-6-ton attack helicopter. Basically, the two helicopter types would have the same engines, transmission, rotors, and avionics. The Z-9/Z-19 or Rooivalk/Oryx were such options.

I understand the PAA has immediate requirements, but we can't keep putting out random fires with stopgaps or rapid off-the-shelf purchases. We need to think about long-term sustainability and scalability. The most valuable aspect of the JF-17 is that the PAF can add as many of those it wants as (no matter what) the JF-17 will always be the lowest-cost way to build credible air capabilities. The Army should have this type of solution for its helicopter requirements. 

The T625 and T629 combination with TEI TS1400 is interesting:

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Today I think we can still bridge some gap , thru may be Italy or Europe , for Light Attack Category
Beside the Z-10 , option which again remains available to exercise

If China is operating 100+ of these , these must be of some quality


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## sparten

If we had negotiate, we could have gotten Z10 with ToT in 2015. Kamra would have been making them now.
Instead we got seduced by Vipers and T129.


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## Moon

sparten said:


> If we had negotiate, we could have gotten Z10 with ToT in 2015. Kamra would have been making them now.
> Instead we got seduced by Vipers and T129.


Nopes, Z-10 of then was not even half as capable as the one we're getting. It didn't perform up to our expectations either. Plus, our requirement does not justify ToT (even tho I wish it did).


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

T625 and T629 combination with TEI TS1400 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) indeed are good birds but I imagine the considerable first 50-70 deliveries would be for Turkish Armed forces so it will take 4-5 years before export orders are filled

We have not even shown any intention of purchasing (formally)


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## Moon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> True.
> 
> But I wish we could've picked up a license to build a low-cost 1-2-ton helicopter. There was some momentum behind it back in the 1970s (there was a lot of interest in building stuff at Kamra at the time -- e.g., Mushshak, Saab 105, a fighter to replace the F-6, etc). With the emergence of ATGM and laser-guided rockets, these small beaters would've been really useful for close air support, special operations, recon/scouting, etc.


On a side note, can we reverse engineer the early gas turbines in the Alouettes? Imagine a decent sized fleet of something like the Gazelle, but with modern avionics and materials....

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## CHI RULES

sparten said:


> The decision to not buy the Z10 was a mistake. Chasing the AH1Z and T129 cost us.


AH1Z though chances are narrow but still a possible option.


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## CHI RULES

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> As stated by @*Bilal Khan (Quwa) *, the gap has existed since 1980's
> 
> I remember reading stories when Pakistani Forces used to request Chinook Type multi purpose Helicopters and Also AWACs from USA but such force multipliers were always denied to Pakistan Military, these assets were still denied even during the WOT era.
> 
> If Gap existed 50-60 Units in 1980 you can imagine how much more the need is 40 years to present date
> 
> The chase behind the Super Cobra and T-129 , has cost considerable 13 year delay just from initial plans , possibilities and negotiations and then learning about no arrival or late arrivals or deliveries
> 
> Mean while across the border , Helicopters are manufactured on Supply Chain , Month/to Month gunships are being produced , even with basic design , these are loaded with Rockets and other heavy Ammunition


Though chances are minor yet one on one attack heli combat can't be ruled out in future wars espeecially in Indo Pak scenario, then ared drones in near future shall also be there. I have seen few videos few years back where Indian domestic attack helis were practicing with AAMs. On other hand so far no Pak attack heli so far is armed withh AAMs or they are preparing. The one to one heli combats already happened during Iran-Iraq war years back. So we need attack helis in large numbers with air waarfare capabilities.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> True.
> 
> But I wish we could've picked up a license to build a low-cost 1-2-ton helicopter. There was some momentum behind it back in the 1970s (there was a lot of interest in building stuff at Kamra at the time -- e.g., Mushshak, Saab 105, a fighter to replace the F-6, etc). With the emergence of ATGM and laser-guided rockets, these small beaters would've been really useful for close air support, special operations, recon/scouting, etc.


MD530 is a good option I don't think US would have an issue can add in very good numbers since they are cheap


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## Great Janjua

Attack helicopters are best complemented by UAVs and loitering munition in a hotly SAM contested battleground of modern times, India is as off currently playing its cards right. Be it from local manufacturing of loitering munition in excess range of 180km or to attack helicopters alongside armed UAVs. It is seeing a rise in quality products, produced at home with little cost. now that's future-proofing.

This intermingling of such amazing platforms is sure to cause headaches for Pak armour. 

For now, we have covered the first 2 vitals of the 3 drop magic potion. All we need is the last "loitering" drop, no pun intended.

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## Keysersoze

sparten said:


> If we had negotiate, we could have gotten Z10 with ToT in 2015. Kamra would have been making them now.
> Instead we got seduced by Vipers and T129.


Thats great. They would have gotten a platform that testing found unsuitable. And TOT would not be guaranteed.


mingle said:


> MD530 is a good option I don't think US would have an issue can add in very good numbers since they are cheap


To quote the largest user of the MD530 (Afghanistan) 

"Colonel Qalandari, Afghan Air Force pilot, “It’s unsafe to fly, the engine is too weak, the tail rotor is defective and it’s not armored. If we go down after the enemy we’re going to have enemy return fire, which we can’t survive. If we go up higher, we can’t visually target the enemy "

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## sparten

Keysersoze said:


> Thats great. They would have gotten a platform that testing found unsuitable. And TOT would not be guaranteed.



Better than the current, which is no platforms, except those on paper and those that do exist are falling apart.


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## GriffinsRule

Yaad aa rahi hai ... teri yaad aa rahi hai

This one is for our brothers in Bahrain

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## TsAr

sparten said:


> The decision to not buy the Z10 was a mistake. Chasing the AH1Z and T129 cost us.


Kindly elaborate "Cost"


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## iLION12345_1

While I agree that not having proper replacement in service at the moment is a matter of concern, there is simply no way buying the Z-10 in its original form was a good decision when it cannot withstand the geography of the country.

Without proper filters and weak engines it was neither suitable for deserts nor for mountains. I would rather take an obsolete AH-1F over a non-functional Z-10 any day, and PA (and probably the soldier on the ground) would also agree with me once his air-support is canceled because sand got in its engines. You cannot replace something that’s bad because Of age with something that’s bad because of a lack of features, especially when you have a limited budget.

PA made the correct decision by trying to pursue AH-1Z and T129B as they were the better options at the time, they couldn’t not predict how things would turn out, and as we know they turned out pretty bad. But now hopefully the PAA will get good gunships for the right cost, rather than bad gunships for the same cost. All things considered, this outcome is not the worst, that is, If PA can get said better helicopters quickly. Neither outcome was ideal though.


TsAr said:


> Kindly elaborate "Cost"

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## Khaqan Humayun

PAA waiting for T-129. 
Tiger Attack Helicopter is out of reach.
same as US made helicopter are out of reach.
What is left Now China & Russia.

Our R&D department is sleeping while indian making HAL Attack Helicopter.

HAL Light Combat Helicopter 
HAL Rudra 
HAL Dhruv 
HAL Light Utility Helicopter 
HAL Chetak 

If we announce Tatelt Hunt program Pakistan can get Thousends of Ideas to Make Helicopter our Students are sharp minded if some good people handel them they will show what they can make.
NED University and other have many brillent mind.

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## Windjammer



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## Reichmarshal

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 783039


GOC aviation lost his job for this F up


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## Great Janjua

Reichmarshal said:


> GOC aviation lost his job for this F up



Come again?.


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## Inception-06

Reichmarshal said:


> GOC aviation lost his job for this F up



Please what?


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## Moon

Reichmarshal said:


> GOC aviation lost his job for this F up


Huh? Why?


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## ziaulislam

Reichmarshal said:


> GOC aviation lost his job for this F up


I always wondered why were these picked up at that cost

Better drones for counter insurgency..


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## Reichmarshal

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 783039


Photographer of this pic is syed zahaib zaidi


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## Windjammer

Reichmarshal said:


> Photographer of this pic is syed zahaib zaidi


And his watermark is visible on the picture, what is the big revelation here. !!!

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## Reichmarshal

Windjammer said:


> And his watermark is visible on the picture, what is the big revelation here. !!!


Ment for ppl with poor vision like me.
Wasay time for revelations needed long ago


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## Moon

ziaulislam said:


> I always wondered why were these picked up at that cost
> 
> Better drones for counter insurgency..


What purpose do they serve? Scouting? SAR? Also are they too expensive for the capabilities they provide?


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## ziaulislam

Moon said:


> What purpose do they serve? Scouting? SAR? Also are they too expensive for the capabilities they provide?


Scouting..but against what???

Yeah..huge waste of money..someone got rich


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## Moon

ziaulislam said:


> Scouting..but against what???
> 
> Yeah..huge waste of money..someone got rich


Damn... Yeah I was wondering what purpose hey served, seem very redundant with the advent of drones... But if you could put ATGMs on these bad boys, you'd have pretty good tank busters.


How much were they a piece?


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## Scorpiooo

Khaqan Humayun said:


> PAA waiting for T-129.
> Tiger Attack Helicopter is out of reach.
> same as US made helicopter are out of reach.
> What is left Now China & Russia.
> 
> Our R&D department is sleeping while indian making HAL Attack Helicopter.
> 
> HAL Light Combat Helicopter
> HAL Rudra
> HAL Dhruv
> HAL Light Utility Helicopter
> HAL Chetak
> 
> If we announce Tatelt Hunt program Pakistan can get Thousends of Ideas to Make Helicopter our Students are sharp minded if some good people handel them they will show what they can make.
> NED University and other have many brillent mind.


Too late for R&D now you need ToT to fill out gap then can start R and D for future stuff

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## Reichmarshal

ziaulislam said:


> Scouting..but against what???
> 
> Yeah..huge waste of money..someone got rich


someone got kicked out of the army, short of a court-martial.

the attack version is a piece of crap. only good for photo opps

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## The Terminator

IMHO modernization and upgradation of Attack helis and Air Defence systems should be the top most priority of Pakistan Army rather than rifle replacement and newer tanks acquisition programs. Those infantrymen specially the tanks would be just sitting ducks in case of enemy's overwhelming quantity of relatively modern Air power. Even the most expensive cutting edge tank can't reliably defend itself from the aerial threats. Our obsolete cobra fleet could be proven teeth less against any near peer modern armed force


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## Moon

The Terminator said:


> enemy's overwhelming quantity of relatively modern Air power


Won't that make survival of helicopters difficult as well? Though I do agree in the importance of Army having small indigenously built helicopters. Now if they're manned that's fine. If they're unmanned like the NORINCO CR-500, which can be used in conjunction with armor then that's a game changer IMO. Multiple ATGM carrying UAVs would be a nightmare for any foe.


The Terminator said:


> Our obsolete cobra fleet could be proven teeth less against any near peer modern armed force


Cobra's should be either given to FC or be reverse engineered and modernized for mass induction.


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## Keysersoze

The Terminator said:


> IMHO modernization and upgradation of Attack helis and Air Defence systems should be the top most priority of Pakistan Army rather than rifle replacement and newer tanks acquisition programs. Those infantrymen specially the tanks would be just sitting ducks in case of enemy's overwhelming quantity of relatively modern Air power. Even the most expensive cutting edge tank can't reliably defend itself from the aerial threats. Our obsolete cobra fleet could be proven teeth less against any near peer modern armed force



Enemy air power is the purview of the airforce.

The Army has Hq16s and Hq7s and manpads as well as AAA guns. These provide mobile air defence for formations. They were looking at Pantsir or equivalent but I believe that got stopped by the Russians. So they have already looked at the problem and implemented a solution. These systems in theory would be used if the PAF cannot provide aerial protection.

Helicopters in this case would have no effect on airdefence. They are to break armoured attacks or hardpoints with stand-off missiles. The cobras are old but still work. The PAA is clearly addressing the problem but politics have slowed the purchase for both options. So your points have already been addressed.
Meanwhile rifle replacement is needed as Helicopters and Sam systems can't hold ground. The PBI with their rifles do that.


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## The Terminator

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> True.
> 
> But I wish we could've picked up a license to build a low-cost 1-2-ton helicopter. There was some momentum behind it back in the 1970s (there was a lot of interest in building stuff at Kamra at the time -- e.g., Mushshak, Saab 105, a fighter to replace the F-6, etc). With the emergence of ATGM and laser-guided rockets, these small beaters would've been really useful for close air support, special operations, recon/scouting, etc.


Now their role can be taken up by UCAVs!


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## The Terminator

Great Janjua said:


> Attack helicopters are best complemented by UAVs and loitering munition in a hotly SAM contested battleground of modern times, India is as off currently playing its cards right. Be it from local manufacturing of loitering munition in excess range of 180km or to attack helicopters alongside armed UAVs. It is seeing a rise in quality products, produced at home with little cost. now that's future-proofing.
> 
> This intermingling of such amazing platforms is sure to cause headaches for Pak armour.
> 
> For now, we have covered the first 2 vitals of the 3 drop magic potion. All we need is the last "loitering" drop, no pun intended.


Exactly, Pakistan has to follow the same route too. Better UAVs are available at our disposal now. But PA Air Defence is not upto the mark given today's ever increasing engagement ranges and large quantity of India's aerial attack fleet, Pakistan's armor doesn't stand a chance unless skies above them are clear from any threat. Time and again it has been proven around the globe that who owns the sky obliterates the opposing force.

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## The Terminator

Keysersoze said:


> Enemy air power is the purview of the airforce.
> 
> The Army has Hq16s and Hq7s and manpads as well as AAA guns. These provide mobile air defence for formations. They were looking at Pantsir or equivalent but I believe that got stopped by the Russians. So they have already looked at the problem and implemented a solution. These systems in theory would be used if the PAF cannot provide aerial protection.
> 
> Helicopters in this case would have no effect on airdefence. They are to break armoured attacks or hardpoints with stand-off missiles. The cobras are old but still work. The PAA is clearly addressing the problem but politics have slowed the purchase for both options. So your points have already been addressed.
> Meanwhile rifle replacement is needed as Helicopters and Sam systems can't hold ground. The PBI with their rifles do that.


Do you really think that airforce would be there to cover entire Army's massive formations against enemy's close air support and dealing with many times larger adversary's airforce simultaneously??? I think PAF would already be stretched too thin to support Army effectively.

And hypothetically after the initial exchange of heavy long range artillery fires, tactical and cruise missiles and cross border air raids, don't know how much part of the airforce would manage to be operational at that point. We don't enjoy that kind of a luxury of quantitative advantage and land mass depth as our enemy does. In that context Army should be always ready to cater for their own requirements by themselves and don't rely too much on the airforce. It would be harder for us to replace and patch up losses as the war progresses


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## Keysersoze

The Terminator said:


> Do you really think that airforce would be there to cover entire Army's massive formations against enemy's close air support and dealing with many times larger adversary's airforce simultaneously??? I think PAF would already be stretched too thin to support Army effectively.
> 
> And hypothetically after the initial exchange of heavy long range artillery fires, tactical and cruise missiles and cross border air raids, don't know how much part of the airforce would manage to be operational at that point. We don't enjoy that kind of a luxury of quantitative advantage and land mass depth as our enemy does. In that context Army should be always ready to cater for their own requirements by themselves and don't rely too much on the airforce. It would be harder for us to replace and patch up losses as the war progresses


Yes I do. The airforce's job is not just to protect airspace over Pakistan. It may not be able to do so in all aspects during a conflict and hence the systems such as HQ16 and HQ7s. If all redundant systems are gone then there will be real problems that SAM systems won't fix.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> I always wondered why were these picked up at that cost
> 
> Better drones for counter insurgency..


From a conversation with someone...the MD-530F should have won the requirement based on performance and price-point.


The Terminator said:


> Now their role can be taken up by UCAVs!


How about developing an indigenous 1-2-ton VTOL UCAV?

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## Great Janjua

The Terminator said:


> Exactly, Pakistan has to follow the same route too. Better UAVs are available at our disposal now. But PA Air Defence is not upto the mark given today's ever-increasing engagement ranges and large quantity of India's aerial attack fleet, Pakistan's armour doesn't stand a chance unless skies above them are clear from any threat. Time and again it has been proven around the globe that who owns the sky obliterates the opposing force.


The thing wrong with our doctrine is we are cheering upon jf-17 with bvr to help clear hostile skies for ground armour. it's an odd thought to even consider nowadays no wonder our AAD capability is extremely lacking.

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## Abid123

The Terminator said:


> IMHO modernization and upgradation of Attack helis and Air Defence systems should be the top most priority of Pakistan Army rather than rifle replacement and newer tanks acquisition programs. Those infantrymen specially the tanks would be just sitting ducks in case of enemy's overwhelming quantity of relatively modern Air power. Even the most expensive cutting edge tank can't reliably defend itself from the aerial threats. Our obsolete cobra fleet could be proven teeth less against any near peer modern armed force


"Those infantrymen specially the tanks would be just sitting ducks in case of enemy's overwhelming quantity of relatively modern Air power". 

A solution for this could be to buy a sizeable number of HQ-17AE's from China. "The HQ-17 is designed to keep up with *mechanized troops like tank battalions to provide air cover on the move*, as well as protect military sites". "The system can effectively intercept not only fixed wing aircraft, armed helicopters, drones, tactical air-to-ground missiles, anti-radiation air-to-ground missiles and subsonic cruise missiles, but also more challenging targets such as stealth aircraft, supersonic cruise missiles and rockets".






HQ-17 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org













China’s advanced field air defense missile HQ-17AE cleared for export - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn


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## mudas777

Abid123 said:


> "Those infantrymen specially the tanks would be just sitting ducks in case of enemy's overwhelming quantity of relatively modern Air power".
> 
> A solution for this could be to buy a sizeable number of HQ-17AE's from China. "The HQ-17 is designed to keep up with *mechanized troops like tank battalions to provide air cover on the move*, as well as protect military sites". "The system can effectively intercept not only fixed wing aircraft, armed helicopters, drones, tactical air-to-ground missiles, anti-radiation air-to-ground missiles and subsonic cruise missiles, but also more challenging targets such as stealth aircraft, supersonic cruise missiles and rockets".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HQ-17 - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China’s advanced field air defense missile HQ-17AE cleared for export - Global Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globaltimes.cn




I think we should be making this missile ourselves licenced or under TOT in huge numbers considering the vulnerabilities and lack of our modern AD systems. Enemy have got much larger air force with better technology and our air force can't be everywhere due to the sheer task its facing. Our ships and ground forces needs better protection and we are expecting a magic wand from our air force. Resources and our economy is one factor but we are not helping ourselves either by not making ourselves and dependence on others can only go so far.


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## Khaqan Humayun

Cobra helicopter rebuild factory in pakistan is our need.
Iran has done the same.
Start from rebuilding then we will build our own Attack helicopter.

Open Market will aupport us to rebuild.
Below mention Pics belong to Irani rebuild helicopters.

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## ghazi52



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## jupiter2007

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Cobra helicopter rebuild factory in pakistan is our need.
> Iran has done the same.
> Start from rebuilding then we will build our own Attack helicopter.
> 
> Open Market will aupport us to rebuild.
> Below mention Pics belong to Irani rebuild helicopters.




We need super Cobra or Turkish helicopter with TOT to establish helicopter building industry. I think private companies should take the initiative in building helicopter. Starts with utility helicopter and then jump
Into gunship.


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## Khaqan Humayun

jupiter2007 said:


> We need super Cobra or Turkish helicopter with TOT to establish helicopter building industry. I think private companies should take the initiative in building helicopter. Starts with utility helicopter and then jump
> Into gunship.



Yes this will be good for us, but as we know when ever we allow any private sector they are hijacked by RAW as Geo News K-Electric PTCL.

This the time that Army establish industries for civilian workers. like Chinese Army has more then 2000 industries to generate revenue, from Spoon to Car, Truck to Tanks are made by chinese army.
Revenue of these industries allow thme to make Dams and road Railway and other Civilian Projects along with Weapons.


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## jupiter2007

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Yes this will be good for us, but as we know when ever we allow any private sector they are hijacked by RAW as Geo News K-Electric PTCL.
> 
> This the time that Army establish industries for civilian workers. like Chinese Army has more then 2000 industries to generate revenue, from Spoon to Car, Truck to Tanks are made by chinese army.
> Revenue of these industries allow thme to make Dams and road Railway and other Civilian Projects along with Weapons.



Army can not take that initiative….opposition will not allow it.

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## Khaqan Humayun

jupiter2007 said:


> Army can not take that initiative….opposition will not allow it.



Opposition will ask NRO to give permission, 
We are bound because of this Opposition, Wadara Malik and Chudry System


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## The Terminator

IMHO PAK army should secretly induct a squadron of JF-17 of their own and place them all along the eastern border in groups of 4 to 5 fighters. It would be a massive force multiplier for the Army. Even the most basic variants of thunders would do the job.

Reasons:
Fighter jets are the apex predators of the modern battlefields, they can severely damage almost all the components of opposing forces and their attack could be retaliated only by a few of the systems. They are equally effective in defensive or offensive operations. 

It would balance out any deficiencies in armor, air defence, gunship helicopters, firepower or artillery. 

Spread all along the border in small groups deployed from the mini bases disguised as highways and hangers disguised as industrial buildings, would mean better coverage and instant availability, and far better survivability of the air fleet. Can act as an immediate reinforcement to the ground troops as Supersonic Air QRF. 

Would relieve already stretched out PAF, and PAF's primary role would be to attack enemy's major bases, contain or defeat IAF and defend PAF's vital assets like AWACs, Refuelers, air bases etc. In pressure and key moments PAF may not be able to support and answer Army's all requests. That's why Army Aviation is created to support military formations in the skies regardless of air force support availability and better integration/Chain of command of its air assets. 

The advent of BVR AA missiles, Stand off precision guided bombs/missiles it's time to upgrade the PAA with those lethal force multipliars and to deter similar capabilities of the enemy. As armored formations and gunships would be sitting ducks against those capabilities. 

This can tilt the entire balance of ground forces capabilities and would be a great surprise and death sentence for any possible enemy armored thrusts, would increase the nuclear threshold and make nuclear capable systems like Nasr completely redundant. It would act like Army's insurance policy in worst case scenarios like if PAF gets massive losses in its fighter fleet and/or major air bases.
IMHO PAK army should secretly induct a squadron of JF-17 of their own and place them all along the eastern border in groups of 4 to 5 fighters. It would be a massive force multiplier for the Army. Even the most basic variants of thunders would do the job.

Reasons:
Fighter jets are the apex predators of the modern battlefields, they can severely damage almost all the components of opposing forces and their attack could be retaliated only by a few of the systems. They are equally effective in defensive or offensive operations. 

It would balance out any deficiencies in armor, air defence, gunship helicopters, firepower or artillery. 

Spread all along the border in small groups deployed from the mini bases disguised as highways and hangers disguised as industrial buildings, would mean better coverage and instant availability, and far better survivability of the air fleet. Can act as an immediate reinforcement to the ground troops as Supersonic Air QRF. 

Would relieve already stretched out PAF, and PAF's primary role would be to attack enemy's major bases, contain or defeat IAF and defend PAF's vital assets like AWACs, Refuelers, air bases etc. In pressure and key moments PAF may not be able to support and answer Army's all requests. That's why Army Aviation is created to support military formations in the skies regardless of air force support availability and better integration/Chain of command of its air assets. 

The advent of BVR AA missiles, Stand off precision guided bombs/missiles it's time to upgrade the PAA with those lethal force multipliars and to deter similar capabilities of the enemy. As armored formations and gunships would be sitting ducks against those capabilities. 

This can tilt the entire balance of ground forces capabilities and would be a great surprise and death sentence for any possible enemy armored thrusts, would increase the nuclear threshold and make nuclear capable systems like Nasr completely redundant. It would act like Army's insurance policy in worst case scenarios like if PAF gets massive losses in its fighter fleet and/or major air bases.

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## The Terminator

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Cobra helicopter rebuild factory in pakistan is our need.
> Iran has done the same.
> Start from rebuilding then we will build our own Attack helicopter.
> 
> Open Market will aupport us to rebuild.
> Below mention Pics belong to Irani rebuild helicopters.


Instead of building a factory to rebuild obsolete cobras which is equally controversial as US wouldn't allow it in the first place, why not induct a squadron of JF-17 thunders and use the already well established PAF's supply chain and rebuild facilities instead. Cobras have to go anyways. Replace them with any gunship as they would have far better modern avionics and tech in them than ancient cobras


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## iLION12345_1

The Terminator said:


> Instead of building a factory to rebuild obsolete cobras which is equally controversial as US wouldn't allow it in the first place, why not induct a squadron of JF-17 thunders and use the already well established PAF's supply chain and rebuild facilities instead. Cobras have to go anyways. Replace them with any gunship as they would have far better modern avionics and tech in them than ancient cobras


New Gunships are coming. Just be patient. The army does have unlimited cash. They’ll get here when they’re supposed to.

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## The Terminator

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Yes this will be good for us, but as we know when ever we allow any private sector they are hijacked by RAW as Geo News K-Electric PTCL.
> 
> This the time that Army establish industries for civilian workers. like Chinese Army has more then 2000 industries to generate revenue, from Spoon to Car, Truck to Tanks are made by chinese army.
> Revenue of these industries allow thme to make Dams and road Railway and other Civilian Projects along with Weapons.


Pak army has already those industries like NLC, FWO, Fauji Foods, Fauji Fertilizers, POF, HIT, MES, DHA and list goes on. PAF has PAC Kamra complex, Navy has Shipyards. Which already is a very inefficient way to to do work, strict dictatorship style chain of command of those Govt owned industries kills innovation, progress, competition etc. PAF on record has acknowledged that its the only Air force that produces fighter jets. 

The involvement of private sector creates competition, innovation, global cooperation, local industrial supply chains, boosts economy through better and flexible business models. 

A military officer can be best to execute orders and obey chain of command, build cunning fighting tactics, cohesive integrated battle groups management, create better training procedures, new weapons handling techniques etc. but essentially not the best option to run a business industry or innovate in tech. That's why you don't make a medical doctor the Project Manager of a construction project. It's counterintuitive.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Private Sector is free to build their own F16 or Aapache , but most Private sector investors choose to invest in motor cycle factories or Biryani Restaurant

Banks don't feel they can trust a private local company to make F16 or Apache otherwise they would buy their stock

Private companies are not nurtured by State they just are lead by a CEO who takes a massive loan and makes the F16 or Apache craft with Private loan or money , and then once the product is complete sells it internationally to recover his funds

Considering lack of interest in Private Sector , Pakistan Army has to nurture few institutes necessary for National Defense


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## The Terminator

One of the biggest issues China is facing now, which hinders its path to be the No. 1 superpower is the decades old strict communist style control and thought process. China is currently battling this issue by active decentralization, involving public and it's young brains in tech competitions etc. Because you can't innovate in under stress or constant fear. Scientists, great minds in philosophy, culture, sciences can't be produced in a tightly controlled environment or strict SOPs. Lack of SOPs creates innovation. That's why the world still borrows cutting edge tech from the west and China is lacking in that field as of now. 

China became an economic superpower through Capatalist communism hybrid. It would only be a tech giant and science innovator when General public and private sector would have far more stake in those fields and Chinese people are moving in the right direction overall.

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## JamD

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Private Sector is free to build their own F16 or Aapache , but most Private sector investors choose to invest in motor cycle factories or Biryani Restaurant
> 
> Banks don't feel they can trust a private local company to make F16 or Apache otherwise they would buy their stock
> 
> Private companies are not nurtured by State they just are lead by a CEO who takes a massive loan and makes the F16 or Apache craft with Private loan or money , and then once the product is complete sells it internationally to recover his funds
> 
> Considering lack of interest in Private Sector , Pakistan Army has to nurture few institutes necessary for National Defense


I suggest you read this thread.








Pakistan’s private defence industry clashes with government over regulations


Technicians work on parts for a Mirage aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force at the Mirage Rebuild Factory in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad, on Dec. 27, 2017. (Aamir Qureshi/AFP via Getty Images) ISLAMABAD — The Pakistani government’s restrictions on the defense industry are stifling...



defence.pk




I think you're blaming the opposite side: the victim.


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## The Terminator

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Private Sector is free to build their own F16 or Aapache , but most Private sector investors choose to invest in motor cycle factories or Biryani Restaurant
> 
> Banks don't feel they can trust a private local company to make F16 or Apache otherwise they would buy their stock
> 
> Private companies are not nurtured by State they just are lead by a CEO who takes a massive loan and makes the F16 or Apache craft with Private loan or money , and then once the product is complete sells it internationally to recover his funds
> 
> Considering lack of interest in Private Sector , Pakistan Army has to nurture few institutes necessary for National Defense


Well it's a double edged sword. Private businesses are established upon positive market feasibility report, run on profits and can't survive for decades on operating losses. The most important factor for a private business to establish is the demand of local market and local supply chain of raw materials/components. Our Police or military rarely places orders in local market and there are already enough private sector companies to cater those orders.

The economics of the people also plays a vital role in establishment of private sector. A small Aviation company would also sell its drones for local police, crop duster planes for the farmers, private jets for small airlines and elites and military aircrafts for the military too. Our farmers can't afford to have enough tractors so how would a local demand would be produced? 

It's an established fact that Govt run industries and businesses is the most inefficient way to do anything. POF, HIT, PAC etc are the necessary evils for the defense needs of our country but not a long-term solution for our needs. Govt run Fertilizers, food companies, steel industries, housing authorities etc are complete non sense. 

Regulating banks and corporate sector is the job of the Govt. IK and General Bajwa run the show. That's intriguing why Army chief was involved in negotiations with those corporate giants. But to my surprise, still it failed apparently. General public has nothing to do with it.

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## The Terminator

The Terminator said:


> One of the biggest issues China is facing now, which hinders its path to be the No. 1 superpower is the decades old strict communist style control and thought process. China is currently battling this issue by active decentralization, involving public and it's young brains in tech competitions etc. Because you can't innovate in under stress or constant fear. Scientists, great minds in philosophy, culture, sciences can't be produced in a tightly controlled environment or strict SOPs. Lack of SOPs creates innovation. That's why the world still borrows cutting edge tech from the west and China is lacking in that field as of now.
> 
> China became an economic superpower through Capatalist communism hybrid. It would only be a tech giant and science innovator when General public and private sector would have far more stake in those fields and Chinese people are moving in the right direction overall.


The best possible solution would have been a Public-Private partnership. The benefit of privatization would be better management, economic viability and innovation in R&D sector. Downside is a lot of people among key persons could loose their jobs as is usually done after privatization. 

Instead of supporting the local industries, Our Govt for decades has brutally supreessed local market and industries of small arms under the pressure of the US. It's easy for a local citizen to buy illegal small arms as licensed weapons are banned/strictly regulated which means more money for the corrupt Govt officials. A conglomerate of local arms manufacturers plus the Govt backed industry would have at least resolved the issues of small arms manufacturing and exports. 

The carbon fiber cloth, a material used in furniture, construction and automotive products is regulated. And regulated means more bureaucratic hoops to jump through and more room for corruption. How a local industry specially a defense industry could thrive in those conditions. But still some of them are surviving and offering their products too.

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## Khaqan Humayun

The Terminator said:


> Instead of building a factory to rebuild obsolete cobras which is equally controversial as US wouldn't allow it in the first place, why not induct a squadron of JF-17 thunders and use the already well established PAF's supply chain and rebuild facilities instead. Cobras have to go anyways. Replace them with any gunship as they would have far better modern avionics and tech in them than ancient cobras



Dear We are talking about Attack Helicopter, JF17 is fighter jet not Attack Helicopter.


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## Keysersoze

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Dear We are talking about Attack Helicopter, JF17 is fighter jet not Attack Helicopter.


He knows. He is suggesting the PA use jets for CAS as the Cobras are running out of service life.
He hasn't accounted for factors like loiter time etc.

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## The Terminator

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Dear We are talking about Attack Helicopter, JF17 is fighter jet not Attack Helicopter.


Yeah I know that. Cobras are getting obsolete unless somehow we get AH-1Zs. JF-17 is quite potent and our indigenous platform and they could prove great in Close air support maybe better than Cobras (as they could provide air superiority and ground attack capabilities simultaneously in a highly contested area) except from penalties in loitering times. 

Even if we replace cobras with modern gunships even then addition of some thunders to PAK Army could prove to be a great force multipliar and would reduce dependance upon air force for air cover and stand off precision guided strikes.

Modern fighters are flexible and could be used against all kinds of stuff and can punch with greater firepower, can clear the skies and diminish ground forces capabilities and can't be retaliated except by AD and other fighters. Greater flexibility, mobility and survivability than hovering clumsy choppers except in the field of loitering time. 

Modern drones can do better job than old cobras. I have heard that terrorist used to just hangout under shade or trees to escape detection from our dinasour attack choppers having much poor sensor capabilities in day/night Ops

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## Primus

The Terminator said:


> Yeah I know that. Cobras are getting obsolete unless somehow we get AH-1Zs. JF-17 is quite potent and our indigenous platform and they could prove great in Close air support maybe better than Cobras (as they could provide air superiority and ground attack capabilities simultaneously in a highly contested area) except from penalties in loitering times. Even if we replace cobras with modern gunships even then addition of some thunders to PAK Army could prove to be a great force multipliar and would reduce dependance upon air force for air cover and stand off precision guided strikes.


Ummm.... Air force?


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## The Terminator

Keysersoze said:


> He knows. He is suggesting the PA use jets for CAS as the Cobras are running out of service life.
> He hasn't accounted for factors like loiter time etc.


Exactly. I am not in favor of replacing attack helis with fighter jets but in case of cobras, it's better to get 4.5 gen fighter jets rather than start purchasing retired cobras from other countries and establish their rebuild factories to maintain those dinasours.

Replace cobras with new attack helis + JF-17s under Army's command, strategically placed in groups of 4 to 5 fighters all along the eastern border, close to the areas where the future battlegrounds are expected. With airstrip disguised as roads/highways and hangars as industrial buildings. Because major air bases could be far off from the borders and would be a prime target of missile and SOW strikes right from the beginning of war. It would act as a QRF and redundant CAS/CAP assets for Army independent from PAF in case they somehow couldn't show up in time. 


Huffal said:


> Ummm.... Air force?


Nope. Army Avaition

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## Primus

The Terminator said:


> Nope. Army Avaition


Well...what you want ultimately comes under Air force. I mean you cant have jets replace helis for CAS. The air force provides that. 
Jets when in regards to CAS is like a hammer. It hits hard and leaves a dent in whatever it strikes
Helis in regarda to cas is like a scalpel. Its sharp, its precise, its clean, and it leaves a small incision that has one heck of a mental impact on the enemy

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## iLION12345_1

Huffal said:


> Well...what you want ultimately comes under Air force. I mean you cant have jets replace helis for CAS. The air force provides that.
> Jets when in regards to CAS is like a hammer. It hits hard and leaves a dent in whatever it strikes
> Helis in regarda to cas is like a scalpel. Its sharp, its precise, its clean, and it leaves a small incision that has one heck of a mental impact on the enemy


Correct. Fighter jets Cannot work for CAS like helicopters. They cannot hover, provide precision fire, carry ATGMs, move with armored formations etc. They have to re-position after every short attack. 

Unless there is a dedicated fighter for CAS (for example the SU-25 and A-10, which FYI both have proven to be rather poor platforms all things considered), it is kind of a waste of money, rather Improve interoperability between PA and PAF and spend the money on more helicopters.

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## The Terminator

iLION12345_1 said:


> Correct. Fighter jets Cannot work for CAS like helicopters. They cannot hover, provide precision fire, carry ATGMs, move with armored formations etc. They have to re-position after every short attack.
> 
> Unless there is a dedicated fighter for CAS (for example the SU-25 and A-10, which FYI both have proven to be rather poor platforms all things considered), it is kind of a waste of money, rather Improve interoperability between PA and PAF and spend the money on more helicopters.


I never denied the importance of attack choppers. 

A-10's limited capabilities and ineffective cannon against armored targets resulted in its retirement. Whatever A-10s could achieve, F-16s could do it far better and far safer. 

Interoperability isn't the issue. The main issue is chain of command and priorities of the respective forces. PAF would always prioritize fighting and damaging IAF and its assets (air bases SAMs etc). PAF being outnumbered and its major airbases probably under attack could certainly result in difference of priorities and conflict of interest in some cases between PAF and PA when hard pressed by the enemies. 

When PAA have various kinds of helicopters and fixed wing aircrafts then why not a squadron of fighter jets too! Let's upgrade and resurrect our Army Aviation as we did with Air Defence too. 



Huffal said:


> Jets when in regards to CAS is like a hammer. It hits hard and leaves a dent in whatever it strikes


Exactly we need those hard hitting hammers against overwhelming numbers of enemy forces so that their numbers could be hammered down to our advantage.


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## Primus

iLION12345_1 said:


> Correct. Fighter jets Cannot work for CAS like helicopters. They cannot hover, provide precision fire, carry ATGMs, move with armored formations etc. They have to re-position after every short attack.
> 
> Unless there is a dedicated fighter for CAS (for example the SU-25 and A-10, which FYI both have
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450746911087026177 to be rather poor platforms all things considered), it is kind of a waste of money, rather Improve interoperability between





The Terminator said:


> I never denied the importance of attack choppers.
> 
> A-10's limited capabilities and ineffective cannon against armored targets resulted in its retirement. Whatever A-10s could achieve, F-16s could do it far better and far safer.
> 
> Interoperability isn't the issue. The main issue is chain of command and priorities of the respective forces. PAF would always prioritize fighting and damaging IAF and its assets (air bases SAMs etc). PAF being outnumbered and its major airbases probably under attack could certainly result in difference of priorities and conflict of interest in some cases between PAF and PA when hard pressed by the enemies.
> 
> When PAA have various kinds of helicopters and fixed wing aircrafts then why not a squadron of fighter jets too! Let's upgrade and resurrect our Army Aviation as we did with Air Defence too.
> 
> 
> Exactly we need those hard hitting hammers against overwhelming numbers of enemy forces so that their numbers could be hammered down to our advantage.


Yes but that falls under the air force. Not army.


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## The Terminator

Huffal said:


> Yes but that falls under the air force. Not army.


OK then let's agree to disagree

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## ghazi52

Awais Lali 's photo is in the top entries for Heli Ops Magzine weekly contest. 
Please vote for it by hitting the like button on the picture ...







"An IAR-330 Puma helicopter of the Pakistan Army Aviation calmly sitting on the tarmac as the last colors of the sunset drop beyond the horizon." - submitted by @alpha_lima_ on Instagram using #heliopsmag

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## ghazi52

Any chance for PA....
Z-10ME Attack Helicopter

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## python-000

ghazi52 said:


> Any chance for PA....
> Z-10ME Attack Helicopter
> View attachment 787147


Probbly yes because we all know 1st VT4 then HQ-9 comes out so why not & who knows some day our Army also give this surprise to the nation or may be bigger then that...

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## Great Janjua

Z-10 great aircraft but it's Hot and High performance, was not up to mark let's see what's its ME variant forms.

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## iLION12345_1

Great Janjua said:


> Z-10 great aircraft but it's Hot and High performance, was not up to mark let's see what's its ME variant forms.


Already fixed in ME. More powerful engines for high altitudes and improved filters for deserts, among many other upgrades. It’s PAs only option at the moment. They will very likely buy it soon.

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## Great Janjua

iLION12345_1 said:


> Already fixed in ME. More powerful engines for high altitudes and improved filters for deserts, among many other upgrades. It’s PAs only option at the moment. They will very likely buy it soon.


Agreed not many options left, If at all.


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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> Any chance for PA....
> Z-10ME Attack Helicopter
> View attachment 787147



Given the frequency of purchases from China and the type of purchases i think it is only a matter of time. Both the AH-1Z and T-129s are out of bounds, it will be some time before the T929s are available. So - they may be forced to purchases these given the lifespan issues with Cobra's and their utilisation to date. The ME version is prob "good enough" now.

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## ghazi52

25ᵗʰ Squadron "Sky Raiders".
PAA's designated Air Assault squadron.
Raised and based at Dhamial. It operates Bell 412EPs and Mi-17s.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Y-12 Pakistan Army Aviation Corps.

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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 788739



They are starting to look very very very tired now - and need replacing. Shame T-129 did not work out -

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## ghazi52



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## Signalian

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 789442


Reminds of 'Nam


iLION12345_1 said:


> Unless there is a dedicated fighter for CAS


Put 4-6 x Mavericks on a fighter. Take out a squadron of tanks in one attack using 2-3 aircrafts. That's a morale clipper when troops see their own tanks going up in flames.

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## python-000

New option for PAA for Armed & troop transport...

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## Ahmet Pasha

python-000 said:


> New option for PAA for Armed & troop transport...
> View attachment 795764
> View attachment 795765
> View attachment 795766


We could replace the Pumas with either these or the upcoming Turk helicopter.


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## python-000



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## Signalian

Riz said:


> View attachment 797504



Burq should have integrated on PAA gunships and a land operated version for ground forces should have been integrated in Army. This could have been a jump from TOW and BS towards a laser guided missile with extended range than wire guided missiles, on lines of AGM-114 Hellfire.

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## Windjammer

This PAA Mi-35M, besides it's main chin mounted cannon is also armed with Two gun pods on stub wings.

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## Sayfullah

Pakistan should look into drones like this to compliment its gunships. These drones could be very helpful against india.

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## Akh1112

AW249







www.leonardocompany.com

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> AW249
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.leonardocompany.com


The AW149 and AW249 combination would be really cool.

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## Dreamer.

Akh1112 said:


> AW249
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.leonardocompany.com


Does it use an american engine? 😂

The Italian Army has selected the General Electric (GE) CT7 engine for its new Leonardo AW249/AH-249 attack helicopter. 




__





GE Engines Will Power Future Italian Attack Helicopter | Aviation Week Network


The Italian Army has selected the General Electric (GE) CT7 engine for its new Leonardo AW249/AH-249 attack helicopter.




aviationweek.com

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## Akh1112

Dreamer. said:


> Does it use an american engine? 😂
> 
> The Italian Army has selected the General Electric (GE) CT7 engine for its new Leonardo AW249/AH-249 attack helicopter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GE Engines Will Power Future Italian Attack Helicopter | Aviation Week Network
> 
> 
> The Italian Army has selected the General Electric (GE) CT7 engine for its new Leonardo AW249/AH-249 attack helicopter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aviationweek.com




I feel like the Italians have greater lobbying power than the turks, in theory theyd be able to clear a deal, esp now since we have our own lobbying firm in the US too


PS, There is a Safran engine option also

theyre also open to collaboration with other nations @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Raja Porus



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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> This PAA Mi-35M, besides it's main chin mounted cannon is also armed with Two gun pods on stub wings.
> 
> View attachment 797745



We’re any long range 5 plus km missile bought with these heli ? Or all short range stuff


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## python-000



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## Primus

khanasifm said:


> We’re any long range 5 plus km missile bought with these heli ? Or all short range stuff


They are pics of the paa mil mi35m using atgm racks. But they were empty. Guess some may say its a.... Surprise))))))

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## khanasifm

Huffal said:


> They are pics of the paa mil mi35m using atgm racks. But they were empty. Guess some may say its a.... Surprise))))))



there was one anti tank missile type listed in pak MOD Acqusition report 2016-17 or when these heli were ordered Sl Probably for mi-35









Pakistan Buys Russian Kornet-E Anti-tank Guided Missiles


The Pakistan Army has purchased some 52 launchers and an unspecified number of missiles of the Russian Kornet-E anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) for $62.46 million during the 2017-18. The country’s Directorate General of Defence Purchases ordered Kornet-E anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) for...




www.defenseworld.net


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## khanasifm

https://www.rhc.aero/en/catalog/mi-35m



Or maybe not ??

9V120-1 type anti-tank guided missiles;

and (9-А-4172К



https://www.rhc.aero/uploads/Documents/Mi-35P.pdf





https://www.rhc.aero/uploads/Documents/Mi-35P.pdf


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## khanasifm

Vortex of news about the "Vortex": NPO "Izhmash" received a contract for the production of missiles


In recent days, the media have published several reports related to the production of weapons for the Russian army. It all started with the publication of information about the completion of one of the tenders of the Ministry of Defense, but soon there were reports of an impending trial. At the end




en.topwar.ru








__





Shturm Anti-Tank Guided Missile | Military-Today.com


The Shturm is a Soviet anti-tank guided missile system. Originally it was intended for use on helicopters, though later it evolved towards a missile, which could be carried by other platforms, including vehicles and even watercraft.



www.military-today.com













3D mil mi-35m - TurboSquid 1374646


Royalty free 3D model Mil Mi-35M for download as 3ds, max, obj, and fbx on TurboSquid: 3D models for games, architecture, videos. (1374646)




www.turbosquid.com

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## ghazi52

A Pakistan Army Aviation Corps Eurocopter AS350 Écureuil crashed today in the Himalayas at Siachen glacier. Two pilots, Major Irfan Bercha and Major Raja Zeeshan Jahanzeb were martyred.

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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=419441669835764

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## Aneeq Rashid

Does anyone know if Pakistan army like mi 35 helicopter? Does it meet there expectations and may could they get more of them?


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## khanasifm

Aneeq Rashid said:


> Does anyone know if Pakistan army like mi 35 helicopter? Does it meet there expectations and may could they get more of them?




Per US pilot who flew mi-8/17 it’s better suited for high and hot /humid climates vs US heli of similar class, basically it’s mi-8 with front changed for dual cockpit now what is specific role in paa and just 4 heli beats me


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## Super Falcon

Pak is not getting atak and cobras







Our economy is also in reety bad shape


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## Primus

Super Falcon said:


> Pak is not getting atak and cobras
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our economy is also in reety bad shape


Is this your youtube channel?


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## Super Falcon

Huffal said:


> Is this your youtube channel?


No but he is friend of mine in russia i like his sense basicaly he is from pak origin working in moscow now his father was employee in embassey there

I meet him in dubai since we are good friends he frequently visits defence exhibits in dubai pak

I quote him becausehe has reliable info i: u counter check his views u found he is right


Huffal said:


> Is this your youtube channel?


D9nt u think that our helos are in bad shape when india had got apaches


----------



## Primus

Super Falcon said:


> No but he is friend of mine in russia i like his sense basicaly he is from pak origin working in moscow now his father was employee in embassey there
> 
> I meet him in dubai since we are good friends he frequently visits defence exhibits in dubai pak
> 
> I quote him becausehe has reliable info i: u counter check his views u found he is right
> 
> D9nt u think that our helos are in bad shape when india had got apaches


Ah understood. 

Regarding helos, yea they are old. Ah1f are nearing their end of life, but still pack a punch. Mil mi35 are good but are still limited due to number. The z10me would help us a lot. It will allow the ah1f to be retired whilst allowing us to pack an even bigger punch. 

Ah1z and t129 are dead deals sadly. Z10me seems like the most likely choice.


----------



## Super Falcon

Huffal said:


> Ah understood.
> 
> Regarding helos, yea they are old. Ah1f are nearing their end of life, but still pack a punch. Mil mi35 are good but are still limited due to number. The z10me would help us a lot. It will allow the ah1f to be retired whilst allowing us to pack an even bigger punch.
> 
> Ah1z and t129 are dead deals sadly. Z10me seems like the most likely choice.


What you think of getting russian
Mi 28 they pack a punch


----------



## Primus

Super Falcon said:


> What you think of getting russian
> Mi 28 they pack a punch


Possibly, but unlike the z10m, a certain neighbour would try to throw a spanner into the works. They already did it with the pantsirs (thats probably a God send tbh) they would do it with a mil mi28 deal


----------



## Aneeq Rashid

I was wondering why pakistan hasn't pursued mi 35 as replacement for Cobra. During cold war mi 24 it was the attack helicopter for soviet bloc and it was no slouch. It is well armed and can carry troops/supplies.


----------



## MIRauf

Aneeq Rashid said:


> I was wondering why pakistan hasn't pursued mi 35 as replacement for Cobra. During cold war mi 24 it was the attack helicopter for soviet bloc and it was no slouch. It is well armed and can carry troops/supplies.


Because they play two different roles. MI-35 is armed troop carrier ( Bradford truck armed with ATGM and Rockets ) where as AH-1F is your armored Jeep Pajero armed with ATGM and Rockets.

Try driving both in dunes of mingora and see which is easy to maneuvers vs the other and which one is big / large and easy to hit.

Mi-24 was such a big target that once Stingers were introduced, they started to fly 10's of thousand feet high, there they lost the edge.

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## Imran Khan

MIRauf said:


> Because they play two different roles. MI-35 is armed troop carrier ( Bradford truck armed with ATGM and Rockets ) where as AH-1F is your armored Jeep Pajero armed with ATGM and Rockets.


AH-1S cobras are rickshaw with ATGM AND GUN

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## MIRauf

Imran Khan said:


> AH-1S cobras are rickshaw with ATGM AND GUN


/chuckle, that is also a good comparison but AH-1F/S is more like modded 'done buggy' Rickshaws.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MIRauf said:


> Because they play two different roles. MI-35 is armed troop carrier ( Bradford truck armed with ATGM and Rockets ) where as AH-1F is your armored Jeep Pajero armed with ATGM and Rockets.
> 
> Try driving both in dunes of mingora and see which is easy to maneuvers vs the other and which one is big / large and easy to hit.
> 
> Mi-24 was such a big target that once Stingers were introduced, they started to fly 10's of thousand feet high, there they lost the edge.


Yep and the new-gen attack helicopters (e.g. AH-1Z, T129, Z-10ME) are different beasts entirely. They can carry ATGMs and, potentially, SRAAMs (which you can cue to a HMD/S). They also have ECM with DRFM. It's no understatement to say that if the PAA inducts any of those new platforms, the Air Combat Wing would be as sophisticated and intense as the PAF's fighter wing. Maybe a little more so because the gunship pilots have to balance the high-tech stack with manual operations (like looking at the ground, cueing the gun, etc) together. Imagine if they add air-to-air refueling too...


----------



## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep and the new-gen attack helicopters (e.g. AH-1Z, T129, Z-10ME) are different beasts entirely. They can carry ATGMs and, potentially, SRAAMs (which you can cue to a HMD/S). They also have ECM with DRFM. It's no understatement to say that if the PAA inducts any of those new platforms, the Air Combat Wing would be as sophisticated and intense as the PAF's fighter wing. Maybe a little more so because the gunship pilots have to balance the high-tech stack with manual operations (like looking at the ground, cueing the gun, etc) together. Imagine if they add air-to-air refueling too...


The latest Apaches that Morocco just ordered even allows them to control UAVs and get target/video feeds from them directly in the cockpit. We are still stuck in the 80s in PAA

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## Moon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep and the new-gen attack helicopters (e.g. AH-1Z, T129, Z-10ME) are different beasts entirely. They can carry ATGMs and, potentially, SRAAMs (which you can cue to a HMD/S). They also have ECM with DRFM. It's no understatement to say that if the PAA inducts any of those new platforms, the Air Combat Wing would be as sophisticated and intense as the PAF's fighter wing. Maybe a little more so because the gunship pilots have to balance the high-tech stack with manual operations (like looking at the ground, cueing the gun, etc) together. Imagine if they add air-to-air refueling too...


You reckon Pakistan could get its hands on something like a CIRCM, which could actively blind/shoot down missiles from MANPADS?

Or if we already have such a system? 

It's something I'd really like to see in helicopters are larger MALE/HALE UCAVs, especially after seeing how vulnerable they are to heatseeking missiles.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Moon said:


> You reckon Pakistan could get its hands on something like a CIRCM, which could actively blind/shoot down missiles from MANPADS?
> 
> Or if we already have such a system?
> 
> It's something I'd really like to see in helicopters are larger MALE/HALE UCAVs, especially after seeing how vulnerable they are to heatseeking missiles.


Yep it can and probably will get its hands on it. This would come with all new helicopters. Heck, the PAA's T-129Bs were supposed to have DRFM ECM.

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## Moon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep it can and probably will get its hands on it. This would come with all new helicopters. Heck, the PAA's T-129Bs were supposed to have DRFM ECM.


I think things like these should be present on every aerial asset, even if the risk isn't there. 

PAF wanted to pursue DEW for it's NGFA, maybe they could work with PAA and get a home-brewed CIRCM? Or would American's/West be willing to give it to us.
Because AFAIK our AW-139s don't have these, neither do we have a Chinese analogue of these on our Harbin's.

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## Raja Porus

Desert Fox 1 said:


> While going through the 2022 National Defence Authorisation Act; I came across this:
> 
> View attachment 801129


Mithaiyan? AH1Z?

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## SQ8

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Mithaiyan? AH1Z?


If the funds are released as this has no mention of release but changes to the authorization progress AND
Pakistan ops to use those funds and whatever else remains as balance is also payed.

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## mingle

SQ8 said:


> If the funds are released as this has no mention of release but changes to the authorization progress AND
> Pakistan ops to use those funds and whatever else remains as balance is also payed.


I hope PAF will get big chunk as well


----------



## SQ8

mingle said:


> I hope PAF will get big chunk as well


Why is everyone expecting billions when its barely going to be triple digit millions

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## mingle

SQ8 said:


> Why is everyone expecting billions when its barely going to be triple digit millions


CSF stopped since Trump came into power also exit expenses

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## Raja Porus

SQ8 said:


> If the funds are released as this has no mention of release but changes to the authorization progress AND
> Pakistan ops to use those funds and whatever else remains as balance is also payed.


Doesn't it say MAKE payments?


----------



## SQ8

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Doesn't it say MAKE payments?


The *authority* to make payments. In plain words giving the ability dispense funds not guaranteed dispersal of funds.
With that said, there are few reasons to extend that authority unless there is some carrot and stick intended.


mingle said:


> CSF stopped since Trump came into power also exit expenses


I wouldn’t keep my hopes up - Pakistan has no leverage to demand “fairness in payment”

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## mingle

SQ8 said:


> The *authority* to make payments. In plain words giving the ability dispense funds not guaranteed dispersal of funds.
> With that said, there are few reasons to extend that authority unless there is some carrot and stick intended.
> 
> I wouldn’t keep my hopes up - Pakistan has no leverage to demand “fairness in payment”


Let's see and Hope for good


----------



## kursed

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Doesn't it say MAKE payments?


CSF payments were never 100% blocked for Pakistan, they've been used to pay for certain military trainings and for some defence items over the years. I would not take it as an automatic sign that AH-1Zs have been cleared for Pakistan. This is simply an extension of Congress's authority to make the payments in Fiscal 22'.

And it clearly states within the bill that a sum of $60 Million will be made available under CSF vs $180M in 2021.







The same para was a part of Fiscal 21' Defense Authorization Act.






US$450M were made available under CSF in 2019, this is a clear draw-down.







https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6395/text

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## GriffinsRule

WOW $60MM ... we can buy 1 F-16 with that ... maybe
BTW, how much is Pakistan paying for the storage fees for the AH-1Zs? Don't forget, those came out of the monies Pakistan had paid for those 28 birds when we were finally reimbursed with soybeans

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## Ali_Baba

GriffinsRule said:


> WOW $60MM ... we can buy 1 F-16 with that ... maybe
> BTW, how much is Pakistan paying for the storage fees for the AH-1Zs? Don't forget, those came out of the monies Pakistan had paid for those 28 birds when we were finally reimbursed with soybeans



And know PAA - they will pay the storage fees aswell. PAA should permanently wash their hands of the AH-1Zs forver.

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## Reichmarshal

not paying anything.
Maybe being deducted from CSF


----------



## Thorough Pro

what a pathetic nation, drooling over petty dole money from an open enemy, fucking beggars

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## Zephyrus

Mil Mi14PG said to be acquired by Pakistan Army Aviation back in 2011 for fire fighting operations; Image taken at Sevastopol aviation plant.
https://twitter.com/The_SharkSlayer/status/1474331393769586722/photo/1

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## Scorpiooo

Zephyrus said:


> View attachment 803143
> 
> 
> Mil Mi14PG said to be acquired by Pakistan Army Aviation back in 2011 for fire fighting operations; Image taken at Sevastopol aviation plant.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474331393769586722


How many?


----------



## _NOBODY_

Desert Fox 1 said:


>







*Remake of Helikopter, it was released two weeks ago.*

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## blinder

Scorpiooo said:


> How many?


Two, and they are now dumped on the outskirts of Qasim army air base.

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## Inception-06

blinder said:


> Two, and they are now dumped on the outskirts of Qasim army air base.



why are they dumbed?


----------



## Imran Khan

Scorpiooo said:


> How many?


two

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## blinder

Inception-06 said:


> why are they dumbed?


I am not sure. As far as I know they were never actively used.

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## Scorpiooo

blinder said:


> Two, and they are now dumped on the outskirts of Qasim army air base.


In just 10 years , PAA dumped them ?

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## python-000




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## Pandora

Scorpiooo said:


> In just 10 years , PAA dumped them ?



They were old when Pakistan got them refurbished. They were effectively sitting in polish sheds for years due to lack of spares. Pakistan bought them but they were maintenance guzzlers costing too much just to operate. Lack of spares was another reason.


----------



## ghazi52

AS350 Écureuil from Pakistan Army Aviation

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## ziaulislam

Scorpiooo said:


> In just 10 years , PAA dumped them ?


Kick backs


----------



## ghazi52

M-2

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## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> Kick backs


Exactly ... good ol' corruption in the Army

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## Inception-06

GriffinsRule said:


> Exactly ... good ol' corruption in the Army



Imagine both ready to fly anytime stationed on two different airstrips/bases in Balochistan packed with board guns and airborne special FC Units, available 24 hours for a backup call anytime and anywhere, while rotating between all airstrips-air bases in Balochistan every two 2 months, also flying once a week an air patrol!

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## nomi007



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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476588492583022598

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## spectregunship

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476588492583022598


only seeing is believing or maybe something like a senior representative who spills the beans i guess

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## Bossman

ziaulislam said:


> Kick backs


Don’t be quick to judge. They were a requirement of the government to deal with potential meltdown of a nuclear power plant. Army was just asked to operate them as it was the only institution with the capability to do so.

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Army Aviation Combat Rescue Mission in Gigit Baltistan 

.About to refuel and get airborne .

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## Inception-06

Bossman said:


> Don’t be quick to judge. They were a requirement of the government to deal with potential meltdown of a nuclear power plant. Army was just asked to operate them as it was the only institution with the capability to do so.



Are they still in operational condition ?


----------



## Shabi1

End of the T-129 saga



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478686165498839043

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## spectregunship

Shabi1 said:


> End of the T-129 saga
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478686165498839043



the tweet is unavailable..


----------



## iLION12345_1

spectregunship said:


> only seeing is believing or maybe something like a senior representative who spills the beans i guess


DGISPR confirmed T-129 deal is over and that PA is likely getting Z-10ME, that’s all the confirmation we need.

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## Abid123

iLION12345_1 said:


> DGISPR confirmed T-129 deal is over and that PA is likely getting Z-10ME, that’s all the confirmation we need.


What about the 1.5 billion USD paid? Getting the money back?


----------



## iLION12345_1

Abid123 said:


> What about the 1.5 billion USD paid? Getting the money back?


Was never paid. PA lost no money on that deal, only time.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478689466441101313

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## spectregunship

iLION12345_1 said:


> DGISPR confirmed T-129 deal is over and that PA is likely getting Z-10ME, that’s all the confirmation we need.


yes I said that about a week back... and regarding China, today the DG precisely said "hopefully we'll be getting some gunships from there" so that ends any speculation... whether they make a flypast on 23 March is not sure though but could be....


----------



## GriffinsRule

Sad times when you have to settle for your third choice, once rejected already.

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## iLION12345_1

GriffinsRule said:


> Sad times when you have to settle for your third choice, once rejected already.


Except it’s not the same helicopter that got rejected, it’s only the second choice because AH-1Zs were a separate acquisition which still needs to be replaced, and this choice better than the first choice but sure.
The sanctions are however, a very sad affair. The fact that we had to wait this long (and are still waiting).

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## Windjammer

Good Capture.

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## nomi007

*Davis-Monthan AFB *


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## GriffinsRule

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 807664
> 
> *Davis-Monthan AFB *


Looks like the existing US Marine helo instead of those built for PA

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## nomi007



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## Flight of falcon

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 809591



Wow Christian saying….. they probably don’t even know that 😬


(KJV) *Psalms 23:4* “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.” Psalms 23 is probably the most well known Psalm in the Bible.Mar 11, 2018


----------



## Huzaifa Ghilzai

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 804408


Not trolling but isn't this tech already kind of obsolete when pakistan has drones which can perform wide range of task + cost effective


----------



## Bilal.

Flight of falcon said:


> Wow Christian saying….. they probably don’t even know that 😬
> 
> 
> (KJV) *Psalms 23:4* “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.” Psalms 23 is probably the most well known Psalm in the Bible.Mar 11, 2018


Psalms = Zaboor

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Flight of falcon said:


> Wow Christian saying….. they probably don’t even know that 😬
> 
> 
> (KJV) *Psalms 23:4* “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.” Psalms 23 is probably the most well known Psalm in the Bible.Mar 11, 2018





Bilal. said:


> Psalms = Zaboor


Instead of the line, "For I will bring upon your death" I think using an ayah re: Dawud AS would've been cooler. 

That way you have both Biblical and Qur'anic references to David AS.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Instead of the line, "For I will bring upon your death" I think using an ayah re: Dawud AS would've been cooler.
> 
> That way you have both Biblical and Qur'anic references to David AS.

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## Reichmarshal

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 809591


piece of crap machine......waste of money

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## SQ8

They have been peddling it since IDEAS 2008 and their local _champion_ apparently got a nice amount in their kitty and continues to do so with spares support.
Same happened with many other poor procurement decisions over the years. 
The aerial scout mission was moving to UAVs amid the increased danger from Shorads yet this was bought. 


Reichmarshal said:


> piece of crap machine......waste of money

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## ghazi52



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## Inception-06

SQ8 said:


> They have been peddling it since IDEAS 2008 and their local _champion_ apparently got a nice amount in their kitty and continues to do so with spares support.
> Same happened with many other poor procurement decisions over the years.
> The aerial scout mission was moving to UAVs amid the increased danger from Shorads yet this was bought.



Would do a excellent job in the hands of FC.

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## ghazi52




----------



## hassan1




----------



## SQ8

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/2022-01-20/enstrom-helicopters-shutters-files-bankruptcy

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) - guess those training choppers will need to get spares stockpiling.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/2022-01-20/enstrom-helicopters-shutters-files-bankruptcy
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) - guess those training choppers will need to get spares stockpiling.


I wish our private sector had enough gall to buy this company out and ship the IP to Pakistan.


----------



## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wish our private sector had enough gall to buy this company out and ship the IP to Pakistan.


What’s in it for them - and I mean purely from a personal perspective. Gall isn’t it - those that have tried to do similar things have gotten the red tape barbed wire at best and the mortar attack by commission corruption.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> What’s in it for them - and I mean purely from a personal perspective. Gall isn’t it - those that have tried to do similar things have gotten the red tape barbed wire at best and the mortar attack by commission corruption.


I reckon the IP will end up with our old friend Textron who, in turn, will convince us to pick up something to add to our stored AH-1Zs.


----------



## White Lion

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wish our private sector had enough gall to buy this company out and ship the IP to Pakistan.


May be PAC could buy it off and market these for civilian pilot training.

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## GriffinsRule

SQ8 said:


> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/2022-01-20/enstrom-helicopters-shutters-files-bankruptcy
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) - guess those training choppers will need to get spares stockpiling.


Unless they come out of BK. Doesn't always means company shutting down permanently, but even in that case spares are always be procured from other companies that end up manufacturing them. But overall


----------



## farooqbhai007

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I reckon the IP will end up with our old friend Textron who, in turn, will convince us to pick up something to add to our stored AH-1Zs.


Interestingly the company is currently owned by a Chinese Group the CGAG, under which they filed for bankruptcy


----------



## air marshal



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## Windjammer

PAA Bell 412EP Armed With Two Different Types of Door Machineguns.

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## Sage

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Instead of the line, "For I will bring upon your death" I think using an ayah re: Dawud AS would've been cooler.
> 
> That way you have both Biblical and Qur'anic references to David AS.


Tipu makes excellent patches ...but he is not yet skilled in one liner... Brevity is the soul of wit and he has to understand it yet.

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## mingle

air marshal said:


>


Baba G


----------



## ghazi52

Aerospatiale AS-350B3 Ecureuil

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

MI 35

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## Windjammer



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## GriffinsRule

General duty pilots on Instagram: "Mi-35 Hind"


General duty pilots shared a post on Instagram: "Mi-35 Hind". Follow their account to see 1077 posts.




www.instagram.com


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## GriffinsRule

Mi-17 walkaround

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## ghazi52

..............






.............

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## ghazi52

......






...

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## GriffinsRule

ghazi52 said:


> ......
> View attachment 824481
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Legend has it that this beast wakes up from its slumber only for March 23rd day parades

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## Rahil khan

GriffinsRule said:


> Legend has it that this beast wakes up from its slumber only for March 23rd day parades


Also for full dress rehersal i guess. So that batteries would be recharged...Ring Piston ke running bhe ho jatee hoge.


----------



## Thrust_Vector998

ghazi52 said:


> ..............
> 
> View attachment 824462
> 
> .............


On the right is Maj Irfan Shaheed. May Allah grant him the highest place in Jannah

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## ali_raza

GriffinsRule said:


> Legend has it that this beast wakes up from its slumber only for March 23rd day parades


then why was it bought


----------



## Great Janjua

GriffinsRule said:


> Legend has it that this beast wakes up from its slumber only for March 23rd day parades


Pretty much sums up Pakistan.


----------



## ghazi52

..,.




,.,.,

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## GriffinsRule

Looks like Brazil is retiring its Mi-35s just after 12 years in service. Wonder how our handful will fare with spare support (or lack thereof) with the Russians at war. 





__





Brazilian Air Force to decommission its Mi-35M AH-2 Sabre helicopters


The Brazilian Air Force (FAB) will retire its Russian-made Mi-35M attack helicopters, designated AH-2 Sabre, operated by the 2nd 8th CLA, Poti Squadron.




www.airrecognition.com








__





Brazil to Retire Mi-35M helicopters | MOENCH PUBLISHING GROUP







monch.com

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## ghazi52

***





*************

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## nomi007

Ja America tinu kuttay pewan

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## GriffinsRule

nomi007 said:


> Ja America tinu kuttay pewan


Dont worry, the Americans love dogs

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## Raja Porus

Haven't seen MI-35s fly by for parade yet?
Are they busy or require maint?

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## Great Janjua

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Haven't seen MI-35s fly by for parade yet?
> Are they busy or require maint?


Probably CT ops Balochistan.

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## Raja Porus

‎LAHORI MUJAHID - عبد اللہ‎ on Instagram: "🇵🇰 AH - 1 COBRA"


‎LAHORI MUJAHID - عبد اللہ‎ shared a post on Instagram: "🇵🇰 AH - 1 COBRA". Follow their account to see 61 posts.




www.instagram.com





To close for comfort?


----------



## python-000

New alternet for replace mi-17s...

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## Signalian

Windjammer said:


> PAA Bell 412EP Armed With Two Different Types of Door Machineguns.
> 
> View attachment 811758


Need sensors on these machines for situational awareness and for detecting threats on ground before friendly ground troops come under fire

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## Great Janjua

Signalian said:


> Need sensors on these machines for situational awareness and for detecting threats on ground before friendly ground troops come under fire


I remember seeing some on the internet with surveillance cameras.


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## Signalian

Great Janjua said:


> I remember seeing some on the internet with surveillance cameras.


Detecting IED's from air is a challenge. Jamming comms through jammer equipment could be possible. Sensors like FLIR or laser designators or SAR mapping or visual cameras plus a radar preferably mmW can be used.

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## ghazi52

Parade 2022...

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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## LKJ86

python-000 said:


> New alternet for replace mi-17s...

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## Ek620

python-000 said:


> New alternet for replace mi-17s...


We are in talks for AW-149


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## MIRauf

Ek620 said:


> We are in talks for AW-149


UK ? Pak ? sorry can't tell by your flags so ok to assume UK ? but then wise folks tell us not to assume as we may end up making ....


----------



## ghazi52

,.,.,.
War on Terror
WOT



















,.,.,.,.,

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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


>


But we cant compare them with these beast shell we plz elaborate...


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## Ek620

MIRauf said:


> UK ? Pak ? sorry can't tell by your flags so ok to assume UK ? but then wise folks tell us not to assume as we may end up making ....


U r right... And I am not assuming it's just the facts may be sometime later It will come out or maybe not who knows. All I can say on this matter is we need to ask those who say they have inside source if they really do then they can tell u the similar story


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## python-000

Latest improvements & changes in Z-10ME...

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,.





,.,.

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## Signalian

Two Synthetic Aperture Radars (SARs) on either a UAV or a Heli.
1. Ku Band
2. UWB and UHF

That could bring results for IED detection from the air before ground forces move in.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

Aircraft: .....Beechcraft B300 King Air 350
Pakistan Army Aviation





,.,.

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## nomi007

Maybe they sold our AH-1Z helicopters


----------



## TOPGUN

nomi007 said:


> Maybe they sold our AH-1Z helicopters



I don't think so those 9 birds are still sitting collecting dust the US will use that or any other arms sales if there will be any which i doubt as leverage to get their ways with Pak armed forces and this new corrupt gov of Pakistan.

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## Super Falcon

Most of army halo fllet is old need to replace with cost effective platforms






Look how India is locally manufacturing and producing. Different varients


----------



## Super Falcon

India is already ahead of us for locally manufacturing halos


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Can this government get the licenses for the engines of ATAK-1 choppers? At the least they can do some good work! Even a broken clock shows time right twice a day...


----------



## ghazi52

Army Aviation Base Tarbela, KPK.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.





..

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## PanzerKiel

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,.
> View attachment 838547
> 
> 
> ..
> 
> View attachment 838548


One of them has a pylon mounted cannon as well, both have chin mounted FLIR systems... Nice.

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## Two banks of the River

ghazi52 said:


> Army Aviation Base Tarbela, KPK.
> 
> View attachment 838161


The ramp on the second one is different. Any idea about the distribution of various variants in service?


----------



## SQ8

PanzerKiel said:


> One of them has a pylon mounted cannon as well, both have chin mounted FLIR systems... Nice.


Its interesting that PA opted for the controllable 20mm(or is it 23?) turret vs the fixed side 30mm one seen on most mi-35s.

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## Jango

SQ8 said:


> Its interesting that PA opted for the controllable 20mm(or is it 23?) turret vs the fixed side 30mm one seen on most mi-35s.



Lt Col: Sir, kaunsi cannon ko dekhen, rotary or fixed?

Brig: Cobra main rotary hai, to wohi kartay hain.

Lt Col: Yes sir!

JK ofcourse.


----------



## Two banks of the River

There's a small mmw radar under the chin too. Long range ATGMs with 15-20km range can be utilised with this.


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## PanzerKiel

SQ8 said:


> Its interesting that PA opted for the controllable 20mm(or is it 23?) turret vs the fixed side 30mm one seen on most mi-35s.


It enhanced survivability, since there is no need to make a straight run towards the target.

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## Sayfullah

PanzerKiel said:


> chin mounted FLIR systems


What’s the difference between FLIR and EO/IR on drones? Also why don’t cobra’s have any and would it be worth it to add it to cobra’s to make it better for ops and make it able to fire more modern munitions like barq?

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## Al_Muhannad

PanzerKiel said:


> It enhanced survivability, since there is no need to make a straight run towards the target.


What is the standard military metric to evaluate the effectiveness of a fire volley (gunfire and missile)? Please do not reply with emojis.

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## SQ8

PanzerKiel said:


> It enhanced survivability, since there is no need to make a straight run towards the target.


It definitely does, otherwise the Hind is less of a maneuvering fellow and more of a “left turn” fixed wing cas aircraft. 

You also don’t have to turn the entire aircraft when hovering in case you see a target to shoot.

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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

Some where in Ex-FATA Army Aviation Base.

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## ghazi52

.,.,,.,

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## mingle

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,,.,
> View attachment 839108


It seems this cobra got some new patch work including sand filters

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1520482548765319176

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## nomi007

Any idea when was this trial conducted?

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## farooqbhai007

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 839541
> 
> Any idea when was this trial conducted?


2015 one with T129 and Z10

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## AMG_12

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 839541
> 
> Any idea when was this trial conducted?


Seems PS. We didn't conduct any Eurocopter Tiger trials in Pakistan, the flag too seems PSed. The Honda in the background is a fairly recent model if I am not mistaken.


----------



## iLION12345_1

AMG_12 said:


> Seems PS. We didn't conduct any Eurocopter Tiger trials in Pakistan, the flag too seems PSed. The Honda in the background is a fairly recent model if I am not mistaken.


Don’t know about the rest but the Honda model is period correct lmao.


----------



## farooqbhai007

AMG_12 said:


> Seems PS. We didn't conduct any Eurocopter Tiger trials in Pakistan, the flag too seems PSed. The Honda in the background is a fairly recent model if I am not mistaken.


2015 model civic hai bhai , konsi dunya mey rehtey ho ,


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## AMG_12

farooqbhai007 said:


> 2015 model civic hai bhai , konsi dunya mey rehtey ho ,


That’s what I am saying, we didn’t conduct any Eurocopter Tiger tests in Pakistan as the only time it was evaluated was back in early 2000s.


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## Signalian

farooqbhai007 said:


> 2015 model civic hai bhai , konsi dunya mey rehtey ho ,


Rebirth - that’s the name of this model (2013-2016/17) in Pakistan. Some say late 2012.

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## ghazi52

.,,

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## air marshal



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## python-000

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 843131


New option from China for the replacement of Mi-17...

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## Jamie Brooks

python-000 said:


> New option from China for the replacement of Mi-17...
> View attachment 844993


Another option from turkey , a project we can join early in a partnership.
T-925 General Purpose Helicopter​

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## python-000

First flight...☺


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## ghazi52

,.,.,
Levies have been employed in fire fighting and relief efforts. 1 helicopter is being used to drop water and other is being used to drop fire ball and fire extinguishing chemicals on the fire.

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## ghazi52

Balochistan forest fire , Army in action..





















.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1528608081319297024

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## ghazi52

.,.,.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=534984571504676

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Army Aviation Base Qasim also known as Dhamial Base.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.

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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

..,..

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## Signalian

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,.
> View attachment 849145


Busting Russian equipment since 1960's

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Aerospatiale SA-315B Lama.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.

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## Reichmarshal

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,.
> View attachment 851148


the reason why GOC PAA was sent home with a LOT

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,.

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## Super Falcon

Pakistan army might replace MI 17 till 2025 stage wise with Z 20 Multirole halos


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## GriffinsRule

Super Falcon said:


> Pakistan army might replace MI 17 till 2025 stage wise with Z 20 Multirole halos


Complete BS


----------



## Bratva

Reichmarshal said:


> the reason why GOC PAA was sent home with a LOT



Can you expand more on this ? If it is possible

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## Reichmarshal

Bratva said:


> Can you expand more on this ? If it is possible


The above statement is Self explanatory my dear....happened during kiyanis tenure.

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## nomi007




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## air marshal



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## Primus

nomi007 said:


>


Not coming


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## ghazi52

,.,..,,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Pakistan has taken delivery of two Beechcraft Super King Air 350i aircraft. It is unclear if these aircraft will be used for utility/transport or ELINT/SIGINT duties. One of the aircraft, registration N99KC, was delivered on 17 June.

These might be a replacement for Pakistan Army Beechcraft King Air 350ER ISR aircraft that crashed in 2019. These aircraft are one of the most valuable ISR assets in our inventory.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## Readerdefence

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,.,
> View attachment 862391


Hi this been very busy recently with operations for col laiq mirza and his cousin, Allah almighty give them Jannah 
thank you

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552505012567302149


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## Great Janjua

Just out of curiosity does Pakistan have any urge toward Loitering/Kamikaze drones also from what I've heard and seen India has managed a large force of said drones in a short time which could be very useful, especially in our geographical region. 

@RescueRanger @Signalian @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler

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## RescueRanger

Great Janjua said:


> Just out of curiosity does Pakistan have any urge toward Loitering/Kamikaze drones also from what I've heard and seen India has managed a large force of said drones in a short time which could be very useful, especially in our geographical region.
> 
> @RescueRanger @Signalian @PanzerKiel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler


Very good question, one that I don't have to answer to at present. Perhaps one of the other respectable members can inform us all.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## blinder

Bell 412 missing :-(









Army helicopter with Corp Commander aboard goes missing


Lt Gen Sarfraz was supervising flood relief efforts



www.samaaenglish.tv


----------



## AMG_12

blinder said:


> Bell 412 missing :-(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Army helicopter with Corp Commander aboard goes missing
> 
> 
> Lt Gen Sarfraz was supervising flood relief efforts
> 
> 
> 
> www.samaaenglish.tv


It was Eurocopter Écureuil, not a Bell 412. Refer to the crash thread for more info.


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Army Aviation Corps will begin receiving first Z-10MP attack helicopters in first half of 2023.

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## ghazi52

Late 1990's
Karamat as COAS with Commander FCNA MG Aziz Khan, during a tour in the north.

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## air marshal



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## Zephyrus

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> Pakistan has taken delivery of two Beechcraft Super King Air 350i aircraft. It is unclear if these aircraft will be used for utility/transport or ELINT/SIGINT duties. One of the aircraft, registration N99KC, was delivered on 17 June.
> 
> These might be a replacement for Pakistan Army Beechcraft King Air 350ER ISR aircraft that crashed in 2019. These aircraft are one of the most valuable ISR assets in our inventory.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 860506


this is for the PAF


----------



## Michel Niesten

This Beech 350i arrived today at Düsseldorf, probably for maintenance at the local Beechcraft company

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## Great Janjua

Michel Niesten said:


> View attachment 869016
> 
> This Beech 350i arrived today at Düsseldorf, probably for maintenance at the local Beechcraft company


Probably conversion as well for SIGINT???.


----------



## AMG_12

Great Janjua said:


> Probably conversion as well for SIGINT???.


Got FWO emblem behind the cockpit.


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## Great Janjua

AMG_12 said:


> Got FWO emblem behind the cockpit.


FFS.


----------



## Sulman Badshah



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## python-000



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## Readerdefence

python-000 said:


> View attachment 870157


Hi they will surely come one way or the other coz. no chance for ATAK at the moment & no other choice across the border more and more apaches on their way 
PAA in desperate need 
thank you


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Pakistan Army Aviation conducting HADR (SAR) operations in flood affected areas of KPK..

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## ghazi52

.,,.,

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## Reichmarshal

5 men died while they waited for PAA to get off its a$$. So this kind of pr exercise don't cut it.
After the crash they seem " scared" to operate in inclement weather

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## Primus

Reichmarshal said:


> 5 men died while they waited for PAA to get off its a$$. So this kind of pr exercise don't cut it.
> After the crash they seem " scared" to operate in inclement weather


Wasn't that proven false?

@iLION12345_1


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## iLION12345_1

Primus said:


> Wasn't that proven false?
> 
> @iLION12345_1


Yes it was, mister Reichmarshall here is known to post with emotions more often than logic. KP government released a detailed report on why the rescue was so difficult. The army had not even been properly deployed in the region at that point (it turns out it takes time to mobilize relief assets to another part of the country when they’re already busy in another). The deaths were very unfortunate and totally preventable by the PAA for sure, but blaming them for it that blindly without taking into consideration the context is a gross injustice, unless he rather PA repeats a crash like the one before and get more people killed in the process.

I don’t mind people criticizing the armed forces, if anything I’ve been more vocal of them recently than anyone else, but you just know if they attempted a risky Maneuver and suffered a crash these same people would be typing an emotional message about how they had wasted a helicopter and precious lives by attempting a rescue that was already impossible and how they were “naive: and “trying to act like heroes”.

Pakistanis blame isolated events and people a lot more often than the systems that allow such things to happen in the first place, it’s always “remove nawaz” or “remove Bajwa” or “remove khan”, or “the army didn’t save the drowning people”, it’s never “fix the system that allows these people to come to power” or “prevent floods from happening in the first place by building dams”​

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## Reichmarshal

iLION12345_1 said:


> Yes it was, mister Reichmarshall here is known to post with emotions more often than logic. KP government released a detailed report on why the rescue was so difficult. The army had not even been properly deployed in the region at that point (it turns out it takes time to mobilize relief assets to another part of the country when they’re already busy in another). The deaths were very unfortunate and totally preventable by the PAA for sure, but blaming them for it that blindly without taking into consideration the context is a gross injustice, unless he rather PA repeats a crash like the one before and get more people killed in the process.
> 
> I don’t mind people criticizing the armed forces, if anything I’ve been more vocal of them recently than anyone else, but you just know if they attempted a risky Maneuver and suffered a crash these same people would be typing an emotional message about how they had wasted a helicopter and precious lives by attempting a rescue that was already impossible and how they were “naive: and “trying to act like heroes”.
> 
> Pakistanis blame isolated events and people a lot more often than the systems that allow such things to happen in the first place, it’s always “remove nawaz” or “remove Bajwa” or “remove khan”, or “the army didn’t save the drowning people”, it’s never “fix the system that allows these people to come to power” or “prevent floods from happening in the first place by building dams”​


The district admin contacted every one including the army....they were on that bloody rock for 5 hrs.
So don't give this crap about being emotional...u with ur theoretical know how don't have the slightest of idea how things r done in the real world.. specially in the army,

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## iLION12345_1

Reichmarshal said:


> The district admin contacted every one including the army....they were on that bloody rock for 5 hrs.
> So don't give this crap about being emotional...u with ur theoretical know how don't have the slightest of idea how things r done in the real world.. specially in the army,


Yeah yeah. You and your all knowing eye that sees, knows and understands every inner working of the state and the army. You lose credibility every time you try to act like you know more than everyone, yet I’ve never seen you back up anything you speak of other than your overused “military family connections”

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## Flight of falcon

Reichmarshal said:


> 5 men died while they waited for PAA to get off its a$$. So this kind of pr exercise don't cut it.
> After the crash they seem " scared" to operate in inclement weather




You are a retard and a moron who knows nothing about aviation …. God I cannot help but pinch myself in disbelief when I read idiotic comments like yours .

Reichsmarschall you won’t even be a bloody batman in Pakistan army.


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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## Jango

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.
> View attachment 874478



Is this picture recent?

I believe we repainted all of the Mi-17's with this camo scheme to a new multi-cam one. Or is this PAF? Hard to make out fromm this.



Reichmarshal said:


> 5 men died while they waited for PAA to get off its a$$. So this kind of pr exercise don't cut it.
> After the crash they seem " scared" to operate in inclement weather




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563906985719914496

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Hats off to Airmen and Army our Helicopter and Transport /rescue fleet is very limited 

The helicopters are mostly civilian ones converted to Military usage

But we have told this since 2010 we need helicopters for Mass Operations / transport

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## Gripen9

Pak Army Aviation Sqn out of Skardu rescuing stranded villagers in raging waters.

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## blain2

Those criticizing blindly should simply realize the enormity of the situation. PAA fleet is stretched thin. If someone got rescued in 5 hours, they were lucky.

To illustrate this point so the stupidity behind the critique is put in context, realize that in 2005, the earthquake in Pakistan was limited to only KP. Even within that province alone, the 200-300 aircraft fleet of PAA was completely overwhelmed. The US Centcom moved countless heavy lift Chinooks and Super Stallions (USMC) plus RAF's Chinooks to help with this effort.

Compared to that, these floods are across the length of the country in 3 of the 4 provinces. PAA pilots, technicians and assets are working overtime to manage this without any international support. The CoAS himself has said that the current calamity is beyond the resources of the federal, provincial and armed forces capacity.

God bless the three services and their officers and men working overtime to assist Pakistanis in need. Armchair generals sitting and critiquing need to lump it!

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## Reichmarshal

Flight of falcon said:


> You are a retard and a moron who knows nothing about aviation …. God I cannot help but pinch myself in disbelief when I read idiotic comments like yours .
> 
> Reichsmarschall you won’t even be a bloody batman in Pakistan army.


"When some one isent smart enough to express their fustration, they use "dirty" words. Those are words that show a lack of intelligence."

P.s : musheraf ended the batman, now they are referred to as the "buddy"......u can be my buddy as time



iLION12345_1 said:


> Yeah yeah. You and your all knowing eye that sees, knows and understands every inner working of the state and the army. You lose credibility every time you try to act like you know more than everyone, yet I’ve never seen you back up anything you speak of other than your overused “military family connections”


Don't know wt ur on about.....I have never claimed any " family connection" or have I ever stated that I am in the know.

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## Signalian

Reichmarshal said:


> P.s : musheraf ended the batman, now they are referred to as the "buddy"......u can be my buddy as time


Batmen are now referred as NCB. The term "buddy" has been since ages, nothing new.

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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> Batmen are now referred as NCB. The term "buddy" has been since ages, nothing new.


Moreover, its been more than 20 years since batman system is gone where soldiers were employed at homes. Now its properly enrolled civilian called NCBs who are given to an officer from the army.

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## Ghessan

Gripen9 said:


> Pak Army Aviation Sqn out of Skardu rescuing stranded villagers in raging waters.


they must have rope ladders in choppers for rescue mission.


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## khail007

Ghessan said:


> they must have rope ladders in choppers for rescue mission.



Dear what I learned, is that rope ladders with solid metal/wooden steps in them are not easy to climb until you are trained to maintain your body balance/posture correctly to climb them.
In such an emergency, it will be difficult for people to climb such ropes.

@PanzerKiel could shed some light on this issue.

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## Ghessan

khail007 said:


> Dear what I learned, is that rope ladders with solid metal/wooden steps in them are not easy to climb until you are trained to maintain your body balance/posture correctly to climb them.
> In such an emergency, it will be difficult for people to climb such ropes.
> 
> @PanzerKiel could shed some light on this issue.



i agree to what you said, such ladder is always stepped up with a technique (_step right foot onto the rung where rung and the rope meet for a better grip and then proceed for left foot same way_) not for an untrained personnel.

but a rescue mission is always with a rescuer who used to step down and help lift people. for sure if they were using a rope ladder they would have enough staff to climb down for the purpose.

what i am worried about is not only the safety of survivors but also the chopper and the crew who are at great risk.
@PanzerKiel

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## Reichmarshal

Signalian said:


> Batmen are now referred as NCB. The term "buddy" has been since ages, nothing new.


I know that the term "buddy" has been replaced by NCB. 
Wt i was trying communicate sounded better with buddy rather then NCB......hence the use of the term buddy


----------



## Signalian

Reichmarshal said:


> I know that the term "buddy" has been replaced by NCB.
> Wt i was trying communicate sounded better with buddy rather then NCB......hence the use of the term buddy


No. 
The term buddy stays even with NCB. Buddy is the informal term for the formal term NCB, which was previously for Batman.



PanzerKiel said:


> Moreover, its been more than 20 years since batman system is gone where soldiers were employed at homes. Now its properly enrolled civilian called NCBs who are given to an officer from the army.


G bhai, the hunt for a good NCB never ends.


----------



## Signalian

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Hats off to Airmen and Army our Helicopter and Transport /rescue fleet is very limited
> 
> The helicopters are mostly civilian ones converted to Military usage
> 
> But we have told this since 2010 we need helicopters for Mass Operations / transport


Which civilian companies operate helis in Pakistan ?


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563905504191152128

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## nomi007



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## ghazi52

Flood Relief Operation

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## Sifar zero

ghazi52 said:


> ..,..
> View attachment 849470


Why do our MI 35's don't have ATGM's mounted??


----------



## Iron Shrappenel

Reichmarshal said:


> the reason why GOC PAA was sent home with a LOT


What's the story behind that ?


----------



## ghazi52

Recent flood operation..

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Army.

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## GriffinsRule

GriffinsRule said:


> So it looks like Italy's Leonardo has been quietly developing the successor to the AW129, designated AW249, as the original helos are to be phased out by 2025.
> Looks like an uparmed version of the ATAK but will be powered by twin GE700/AVIO CT7-8E6 engines, similar to ones that power the AH-1Zs (2,500 shp each). Max TOW in the 7,500 - 8,000kg range.
> With the close cooperation with the Italians already, it could be another option in the hat to make up the heavy component that was once going to be AH-1Z, or even T129s replacement if that never pans out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AW249
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.leonardocompany.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 731930



So looks like the first flight has happened without much fanfare. This could be the alternative to T129/629 and is a lot more realistic now then the Turkish options. Given that we have been establishing a relationship with the Italians over the last decade or so, it might be a good idea to get in on this chopper with some sort of a deal for manufacturing parts inhouse as well.






@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @HRK @mingle

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## iLION12345_1

Sifar zero said:


> Why do our MI 35's don't have ATGM's mounted??


Probably because we don’t have any for it or if we do they haven’t been used.

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## Reichmarshal

Has a lot more u.s manufactured parts n hence still not do able

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## Sifar zero

iLION12345_1 said:


> Probably because we don’t have any for it or if we do they haven’t been used.


Well Pakistan did order 52 Kornet-E systems with a handful of missiles from Russia.


----------



## iLION12345_1

Sifar zero said:


> Well Pakistan did order 52 Kornet-E systems with a handful of missiles from Russia.


the Kornet is not helicopter compatible. Unless Pakistan is the only operator of its unsuccessful helicopter mounted version, which I highly doubt it is.


----------



## Readerdefence

iLION12345_1 said:


> the Kornet is not helicopter compatible. Unless Pakistan is the only operator of its unsuccessful helicopter mounted version, which I highly doubt it is.


Hi according to Russian they can 
Russia Says It Can Launch Lethal Missiles Based On Kornet-D System From Drones & Ka-52M ‘Alligator’ Helicopters​

ByAshish Dangwal

December 19, 2021

*Russia has developed a new guided missile, X-BPLA, which can be used as part of the armament system for drones and helicopters, a source in the defense industry told Sputnik.*
_“X-BPLA is a new development based on guided missiles from the Kornet-D missile system. It will become part of the armament system of combat drones, for example, Forpost and Inokhodets, as well as Ka-52 helicopter,” the source said._
The missile was successfully launched from a Ka-52M ‘Alligator’ helicopter as well as Inokhodets, Forpost, and Altius drones, the source added.
thank you


----------



## iLION12345_1

Readerdefence said:


> Hi according to Russian they can
> Russia Says It Can Launch Lethal Missiles Based On Kornet-D System From Drones & Ka-52M ‘Alligator’ Helicopters​
> 
> ByAshish Dangwal
> 
> December 19, 2021
> 
> *Russia has developed a new guided missile, X-BPLA, which can be used as part of the armament system for drones and helicopters, a source in the defense industry told Sputnik.*
> _“X-BPLA is a new development based on guided missiles from the Kornet-D missile system. It will become part of the armament system of combat drones, for example, Forpost and Inokhodets, as well as Ka-52 helicopter,” the source said._
> The missile was successfully launched from a Ka-52M ‘Alligator’ helicopter as well as Inokhodets, Forpost, and Altius drones, the source added.
> thank you


That is the Kornet-D. Not the Kornet-E that Pakistan purchased. Entirely different system. Also it’s talking about KA-52M and not Mi-35M. Also that system has not seen any sales. As far as we know, there are no Helicopter Capable Kornets in service anywhere, inside or outside Russia.


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## Sifar zero

iLION12345_1 said:


> That is the Kornet-D. Not the Kornet-E that Pakistan purchased. Entirely different system. Also it’s talking about KA-52M and not Mi-35M. Also that system has not seen any sales. As far as we know, there are no Helicopter Capable Kornets in service anywhere, inside or outside Russia.


So what armaments do our Mi 35 use??


----------



## HRK

GriffinsRule said:


> So looks like the first flight has happened without much fanfare. This could be the alternative to T129/629 and is a lot more realistic now then the Turkish options. Given that we have been establishing a relationship with the Italians over the last decade or so, it might be a good idea to get in on this chopper with some sort of a deal for manufacturing parts inhouse as well.
> 
> View attachment 879502
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @HRK @mingle


yaap I read about it and came to know that it will not be an ITAR free system, it use 2,500-shp GE CT700 engine from US .... so it is not an option for us ...


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## iLION12345_1

Sifar zero said:


> So what armaments do our Mi 35 use??


The ones that are visible; cannons, unguided S-8 and S-13 rockets. Maybe there were guided missiles purchased like the Vikhr or Spindrel but I highly doubt it since there aren’t any sightings or news about it. We only have 4 of them after all with seemingly no follow up orders, so it doesn’t surprise me that they didn’t purchase much supporting weaponry.


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## Signalian

Sifar zero said:


> So what armaments do our Mi 35 use??


Shorter wing span. 2 pylons each side.

Cannon, rockets and provisions on pylon for ATGM (2nd pic). 











Compared to another export Mi-35 below. See the wing span. 3 x hard points each side.




.

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## Zephyrus

Signalian said:


> Shorter wing span. 2 pylons each side.
> 
> Cannon, rockets and provisions on pylon for ATGM (2nd pic).
> 
> View attachment 881105
> 
> View attachment 881106
> 
> 
> Compared to another export Mi-35 below. See the wing span. 3 x hard points each side.
> 
> View attachment 881101
> .


Hi, the helicopter you listed below is the Mi-25; it is basically another Mi-24 export version.
While the one Pakistan uses is the Mi-35M the latest iteration, it doesn't have retractable landing gears and has smaller stub wings, an Ah-64 like tail rotor,
The difference between Mi24/25 and Mi35 is that the prior has retractable landing gears, a 3 bladed tail rotor, and larger stub wings, the Mi-35 has fixed landing gears, smaller stub wings and a 4 bladed tail rotor.

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## Primus

iLION12345_1 said:


> The ones that are visible; cannons, unguided S-8 and S-13 rockets. Maybe there were guided missiles purchased like the Vikhr or Spindrel but I highly doubt it since there aren’t any sightings or news about it. We only have 4 of them after all with seemingly no follow up orders, so it doesn’t surprise me that they didn’t purchase much supporting weaponry.


There have been pictures of an ATGM rack being carried by the MI35M that Pakistan has. Perhaps there is more than meets the eye with it 🤔 


Also I thought they were follow up orders for more mi35m. Or did that just end up in the same place as Pakistan receiving AH 1Z again (never actually happened, it was based on a rumour)


----------



## iLION12345_1

Primus said:


> There have been pictures of an ATGM rack being carried by the MI35M that Pakistan has. Perhaps there is more than meets the eye with it 🤔
> 
> 
> Also I thought they were follow up orders for more mi35m. Or did that just end up in the same place as Pakistan receiving AH 1Z again (never actually happened, it was based on a rumour)


Can you show me the picture? I don’t recall seeing any, unless you mean empty pylons. 

And there were rumors of a follow up order reported by AirForces Magazine that was quoting a Pakistani officer, AFM is a reputable source usually but given how long it has been since said follow up orders and with the Russian war situation I highly doubt we’re getting anymore.

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## Primus

iLION12345_1 said:


> Can you show me the picture? I don’t recall seeing any, unless you mean empty pylons.
> 
> And there were rumors of a follow up order reported by AirForces Magazine that was quoting a Pakistani officer, AFM is a reputable source usually but given how long it has been since said follow up orders and with the Russian war situation I highly doubt we’re getting anymore.

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## Signalian

Zephyrus said:


> Hi, the helicopter you listed below is the Mi-25; it is basically another Mi-24 export version.
> While the one Pakistan uses is the Mi-35M the latest iteration, it doesn't have retractable landing gears and has smaller stub wings, an Ah-64 like tail rotor,
> The difference between Mi24/25 and Mi35 is that the prior has retractable landing gears, a 3 bladed tail rotor, and larger stub wings, the Mi-35 has fixed landing gears, smaller stub wings and a 4 bladed tail rotor.


Mechanics isnt my domain. 

With the engines that PA Mi-35's have, can the larger wing be used to carry weapons ? or will it change aerodynamics completely?

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## GriffinsRule

Signalian said:


> Mechanics isnt my domain.
> 
> With the engines that PA Mi-35's have, can the larger wing be used to carry weapons ? or will it change aerodynamics completely?


Longer wings would impact the hover capability of the helicopter as well.


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## iLION12345_1

Primus said:


> View attachment 881128


Empty Pylons.

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## python-000

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.
> View attachment 881132


When do we received first batch of Z-10ME...!!!


----------



## Signalian

GriffinsRule said:


> Longer wings would impact the hover capability of the helicopter as well.


Now this is a topic of interest.

How should a gunship attack a position or moving vehicles or any kind of target. Fire on the move or hovering fire.



iLION12345_1 said:


> Empty Pylons.


What %age of TOWs were fired by AH-1s in COIN ops when compared with chin mounted cannon and rockets ?
Mi-35 is to be deployed for COIN Ops. So how important is it to carry ATGM ?



GriffinsRule said:


> Longer wings would impact the hover capability of the helicopter as well.


Another thing, how much of fuel and ammo carrying capacity should be compromised by AH-1 and Mi-35 to reach higher altitudes ? Full compliment of weapons Vs Fuel.

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## CLUMSY

Signalian said:


> Now this is a topic of interest.
> 
> How should a gunship attack a position or moving vehicles or any kind of target. Fire on the move or hovering fire.
> 
> 
> What %age of TOWs were fired by AH-1s in COIN ops when compared with chin mounted cannon and rockets ?
> Mi-35 is to be deployed for COIN Ops. So how important is it to carry ATGM ?
> 
> 
> Another thing, how much of fuel and ammo carrying capacity should be compromised by AH-1 and Mi-35 to reach higher altitudes ? Full compliment of weapons Vs Fuel.


Thats where doctrine comes in. For example USMC pilots are more trained on ordinance delivery by diving and on the move whereas Army pilots are trained to fire via obtaining battle position. There can be a few possible advantages for both. With diving and on the move you can deliver cannon and unguided rockets more accurately yet you risk crashing or getting shot. By firing by obtaining battle position youre relatively safe but cannon and rocket dispersal is more noticeable. This also further reflects in the attack helis both branches use. The Apache has a large 30mm "area effect" cannon whereas the Cobra has a triple barelled 20mm gatling gun. Cobras are built with on the move attack philosophy in mind, imo our situation mostly dictates we use them like that too. As mi35 is larger with better avionics it can fill a role similar to the Apache (if we have ATGMs).

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## iLION12345_1

Signalian said:


> Now this is a topic of interest.
> 
> How should a gunship attack a position or moving vehicles or any kind of target. Fire on the move or hovering fire.
> 
> 
> What %age of TOWs were fired by AH-1s in COIN ops when compared with chin mounted cannon and rockets ?
> Mi-35 is to be deployed for COIN Ops. So how important is it to carry ATGM ?
> 
> 
> Another thing, how much of fuel and ammo carrying capacity should be compromised by AH-1 and Mi-35 to reach higher altitudes ? Full compliment of weapons Vs Fuel.


TOWs were used far more extensively at that time than they would be now even if the capability was there because the terrorists don’t really have bunkers, strongholds, dug in positions, technicals etc as they did back in those years. So yes an Mi-35 realistically does not need to carry any ATGMs for COIN ops in Pakistan, especially not for the CAS roles it’s undertaking. However if it were to ever be used in a strike role against terrorists or for any conventional roles, then the lacking capability would be a question.

But obviously with the tiny number and the Z-10ME, this is not a concern, I was just trying to clarify that PA likely does not have any ATGMs for its Mi35Ms, but yes, it doesn’t need them.

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## Zephyrus

Signalian said:


> Mechanics isnt my domain.
> 
> With the engines that PA Mi-35's have, can the larger wing be used to carry weapons ? or will it change aerodynamics completely?


Neither it is mine sir, but i doubt that Pakistani Mi35M can carry larger stub wings.


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## Signalian

CLUMSY said:


> Cobra has a triple barelled 20mm gatling gun. Cobras are built with on the move attack philosophy in mind, imo our situation mostly dictates we use them like that too. As mi35 is larger with better avionics it can fill a role similar to the Apache (if we have ATGMs).


For firing an ATGM, AH-1 has to remain static till the TOW missile impacts on the target, that's my understanding.



iLION12345_1 said:


> TOWs were used far more extensively at that time than they would be now even if the capability was there because the terrorists don’t really have bunkers, strongholds, dug in positions, technicals etc as they did back in those years. So yes an Mi-35 realistically does not need to carry any ATGMs for COIN ops in Pakistan, especially not for the CAS roles it’s undertaking. However if it were to ever be used in a strike role against terrorists or for any conventional roles, then the lacking capability would be a question.
> 
> But obviously with the tiny number and the Z-10ME, this is not a concern, I was just trying to clarify that PA likely does not have any ATGMs for its Mi35Ms, but yes, it doesn’t need them.


Another advent is ATGMs on UCAVS supporting Gunships.

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## CLUMSY

Signalian said:


> For firing an ATGM, AH-1 has to remain static till the TOW missile impacts on the target, that's my understanding.
> 
> 
> Another advent is ATGMs on UCAVS supporting Gunships.


Yes AH-1F has to stay still for wire guidance of TOWs. Not all bad though, wire guided missiles dont ping LWRs and can work through smoke. Albeit yes it can be a big disadvantage

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## iLION12345_1

CLUMSY said:


> Yes AH-1F has to stay still for wire guidance of TOWs. Not all bad though, wire guided missiles dont ping LWRs and can work through smoke. Albeit yes it can be a big disadvantage


AH1s are barely flying anymore. Won’t be a problem for long.


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## CLUMSY

iLION12345_1 said:


> AH1s are barely flying anymore. Won’t be a problem for long.


Yeah, pretty unfortunate. Such pretty birds.
Hope a replacement is coming, idk what the hell is going on with mi35s


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## Sifar zero

CLUMSY said:


> Yeah, pretty unfortunate. Such pretty birds.
> Hope a replacement is coming, idk what the hell is going on with mi35s


MI 35's are deployed in Balochistan.


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## CLUMSY

Sifar zero said:


> MI 35's are deployed in Balochistan.


Yeah but as far as i know theres barely like 5. And i havent seen any precision munitions on them yet.

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## Sifar zero

CLUMSY said:


> Yeah but as far as i know theres barely like 5. And i havent seen any precision munitions on them yet.


Precision munitions are not really needed in Balochistan.


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## CLUMSY

Sifar zero said:


> Precision munitions are not really needed in Balochistan.


Eh, still a basic necessity for modern helis, gives the ability to destroy buildings and vehicles without alerting the enemy till the missile hits and saves heli from damage


----------



## iLION12345_1

CLUMSY said:


> Yeah but as far as i know theres barely like 5. And i havent seen any precision munitions on them yet.


There’s 4 of them. No precision munitions were purchased with them AFAIK.



CLUMSY said:


> Yeah, pretty unfortunate. Such pretty birds.
> Hope a replacement is coming, idk what the hell is going on with mi35s


Stop Gap for COIN ops and CAS until a cobra replacement was found. Z-10ME will be here eventually.


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## GriffinsRule

Hinds were a bad purchase anyway you see it. Limited quantity and no followup orders means under par performance at best or corruption in the deal at worst. They were also acquired at the tail end of ops against TTP and of insignificance in the larger scheme of the things. I mean which country operates just 4 helicopters of a kind that's anywhere the size of PA? Speaks volumes imo.


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## Signalian

GriffinsRule said:


> Hinds were a bad purchase anyway you see it. Limited quantity and no followup orders means under par performance at best or corruption in the deal at worst. They were also acquired at the tail end of ops against TTP and of insignificance in the larger scheme of the things. I mean which country operates just 4 helicopters of a kind that's anywhere the size of PA? Speaks volumes imo.


Wasnt there some news of expanding fleet to 20 ?


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## Signalian

CLUMSY said:


> Yeah, pretty unfortunate. Such pretty birds.
> Hope a replacement is coming, idk what the hell is going on with mi35s


Maybe PAA thinks that Jordanian upgrade with hellfire and RWR/CMs for older AH-1s isnt worth it.


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## Signalian

Sifar zero said:


> Precision munitions are not really needed in Balochistan.


Any kind of bombing by Government inside Baluchistan is detrimental. Intel is doing their job on the ground and thats how IBOs are conducted. Drones or Mi-35s or F-16s dropping missiles/bombs in Baluchistan is not a good idea.

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## python-000



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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568209256771371010

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573978508124192770

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574946512584708096


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573979611972657152

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568776998100824065

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568555201233035264

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## Super Falcon

Why can't we build like India lch halos

Z 10 are good but we need MI 28 Here for eye for an eye

mi 35 only can be effective in terrorism missions

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## CLUMSY

Something like T129 ATAK or AH64E would be cool.



Super Falcon said:


> Why can't we build like India lch halos


Too lazy, too poor


----------



## iLION12345_1

Super Falcon said:


> Why can't we build like India lch halos
> 
> Z 10 are good but we need MI 28 Here for eye for an eye
> 
> mi 35 only can be effective in terrorism missions


Z-10ME > Mi-28NM. PA has tested the latter too.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Z-10 Gunship Helicopter at an undisclosed airbase in Pakistan.


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## Super Falcon

iLION12345_1 said:


> Z-10ME > Mi-28NM. PA has tested the latter too.


For me MI 28 is a best bid for army


----------



## iLION12345_1

Super Falcon said:


> For me MI 28 is a best bid for army


Because you don’t know enough about it and chose to not consider any sort of logistical or delivery problems. Right.

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## Signalian

Super Falcon said:


> For me MI 28 is a best bid for army


Best would have been production of own helicopter locally.

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## Ali_Baba

Super Falcon said:


> For me MI 28 is a best bid for army



Based on its performance(lack of) in Ukraine - hell f--- NO !!!! Overhyped piece of rubbish from what we can see it do in Ukraine, as are most Russian systems it seems.

Russian electronics suite, EW, and information warfare capabilites are useless and not comparable to what Pakistan can get from Turkey or even China right now.

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## Super Falcon

Signalian said:


> Best would have been production of own helicopter locally.


It takes facades to start from scratch


----------



## syed_yusuf

I still don't get it why Pakistan army bought mi35 and only 4 of them

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## Primus

syed_yusuf said:


> I still don't get it why Pakistan army bought mi35 and only 4 of them


COIN ops in Balochistan. Also to send a message to the USA that we have other options that we can pursue in terms of military procurements

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## ghazi52

.,.,,.

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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> I still don't get it why Pakistan army bought mi35 and only 4 of them


No sane person gets it


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## HRK

syed_yusuf said:


> I still don't get it why Pakistan army bought mi35 and only 4 of them


Initially it was planned to get around 20 Mi-35s even after getting first 4 second order was also placed as per reports in local news paper (as far as I remember it was Jang News Paper quoting Rana Tanveer Hussain), but God knows what happened to second order.

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## python-000

HRK said:


> Initially it was planned to get around 20 Mi-35s even after getting first 4 second order was also placed as per reports in local news paper (as far as I remember it was Jang News Paper quoting Rana Tanveer Hussain), but God knows what happened to second order.


all founds sallow by pmln & ppp criminals corrupt mafias...

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## ghazi52

.,.,
AH-1 Cobra armed with Anti-tank missiles stationed somewhere in South Waziristan!

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## WaqarAhmed161247

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> AH-1 Cobra armed with Anti-tank missiles stationed somewhere in South Waziristan!
> 
> View attachment 888081


Which antitank missile these very old cobras can carry and how many at a time???

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## Gripen9

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> Which antitank missile these very old cobras can carry and how many at a time???


TOW


----------



## Signalian

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> Which antitank missile these very old cobras can carry and how many at a time???


TOW and Baktar Shikan. Usually 4.

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## WaqarAhmed161247

Signalian said:


> TOW and Baktar Shikan. Usually 4.


All wire guided and optically tracked? No fire and forget type ?


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## arslank03

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> All wire guided and optically tracked? No fire and forget type ?


nope, they dont have fire control for that


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## WaqarAhmed161247

In the future we may be able to procure F&F type missiles and intigrate them in current fleet and in new acquisition would be sure i hope. 


arslank03 said:


> nope, they dont have fire control for that


----------



## arslank03

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> In the future we may be able to procure F&F type missiles and intigrate them in current fleet and in new acquisition would be sure i hope.


cobras hopefully can go to FC, PAA Will get z10me and t129 maybe. Theyll come in large qtys with modern hellfire equiv


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## iLION12345_1

arslank03 said:


> cobras hopefully can go to FC, PAA Will get z10me and t129 maybe. Theyll come in large qtys with modern hellfire equiv


Cobras won’t go anywhere but the scrap yard likely. Some have already been retired, some have been turned into monuments and gate guards. No more life left in the airframes apart from a few birds.

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## Gripen9

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> In the future we may be able to procure F&F type missiles and intigrate them in current fleet and in new acquisition would be sure i hope.


The juice is not worth the squeeze.
Cobras have flown well past their airframe hrs. It would be cost prohibitive to have them go through a SLEP program and then modernize them. Funds will be used to acquire new platforms


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1584237679331672064

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## Super Falcon

Why Pakistan never invested in helicopters development indigenously halos are back bone of any military today India has super line up of all types and classes of halos for all three armed forces applications

Dhuv,lch,rudra etc

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## FuturePAF

Shabi1 said:


> I believe reason AH-1Z was chosen was that they were financed by reimbursement funds which wont be released at least under Trump. If Pakistan has to pay approx $1bn from it's own pocket it would rather spend it on F-16 upgrades.
> 
> Reason why AH-1Z and T-129 are preferred are because they had better high altitude performance over the Chinese and Russian options which are apparently more heavily armored.
> 
> I think PA has to look at Jordan's AH-1 upgrade program which adds another 20yrs to the old airframes and avionics from the Zulu. Makes sense as gives a breathing space to wait for T-129s as well as if WZ-10 chosen can give us more time to ponder or request customization.
> 
> https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/modernised-cobras-give-rjaf-extra-bite.html
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-offer-big-capabilities-without-the-price-tag
> Jordan is in the process of upgrading some of its AH-1F Cobra gunship helicopters to a new standard that incorporates many features similar, or outright identical, to those on the latest AH-1Z model. The update package could potentially serve as a model for other countries looking to upgrade their existing AH-1s or for military forces considering buying Cobras for the first time on the growing secondary market.
> 
> The Jordanian Air Force displayed one of the modified helicopters during the country’s biennial Special Operations Forces Exhibition, or SOFEX, which took place at Marka Airport in the capital Amman in May 2018. According to a report from Aviation International News, Jordan has taken delivery of two of the updated gunships from American contractor Science & Engineering Services (SES) for training purposes, but they will have to go back to the United States for additional live-fire testing.
> 
> 
> PENTAGON TO SELL-OFF ITS AH-1W SUPER COBRA ATTACK HELICOPTER FLEETBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
> WHOMP OVER THE DESERT FLOOR IN AN AH-1Z ATTACK HELICOPTERBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
> LATEST BELL UH-1Y "VENOM" VARIANT OF THE ICONIC HUEY FINDS AN EXPORT CUSTOMERBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
> BLACKWATER FOUNDER'S PRIVATE AFGHAN AIR ARM PITCH INCLUDED AN-26 GUNSHIPS AND AH-1 COBRASBy Joseph TrevithickPosted in THE WAR ZONE
> THE U.S. ARMY'S UH-60V BRINGS OLDER BLACK HAWKS INTO THE DIGITAL AGEBy Joseph TrevithickPosted in THE WAR ZONE
> Jordan is looking to upgrade 12 AH-1Fs in total, but it has a number of additional E and F models in service, including 16 it acquired from Israel in 2015, that it could put through the update program if it chose to do so. We have reached out SES for additional information, but at the time of writing we had not yet heard back about our queries.
> 
> 
> However many helicopters the Jordanian Air Force eventually decides to upgrade, they will be significantly more capable than they had been in their previous configurations. The new versions will feature an Integrated Avionics System from Northrop Grumman that is the same as the one found on the latest new production twin-engine AH-1Z Zulu Cobras, also known as Vipers, from Bell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Armada International@arm_magazine
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/996260499984547840
> Royal Jordanian Air Force’s modernisation programme is upgrading 12 of its 20 Bell AH-1F/S Cobras, with one of the first on display at SOFEX 2018. https://armadainternational.com/2018/05/hellfire-compatible-cobra-on-display/?utm_source=twitter …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8
> 10:26 AM - May 15, 2018
> Twitter Ads info and privacy
> See Armada International's other Tweets
> 
> 
> This suite has an LN-251 inertial navigation system using a fiber-optic gyroscope. It also replaces a number of analog systems in the front and rear cockpits with large flat-panel multi-function displays by L3. New AN/ARC-210 radios from Rockwell Collins round out the major cockpit updates.
> 
> This comprehensive upgrade significantly reduces strain on operators who no longer have to keep track of the readouts from a mix of analog gauges, optical scopes, and antiquated heads-up displays. The U.S. Army is putting its older UH-60 Black Hawks through a similar and relatively low-cost update program for many of the same reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tyler Rogoway@Aviation_Intel
> · Dec 31, 2017
> Watch this Whisky Cobra make a gun and rocket attack as seen through the pilot's HUD (yes! The AH-1W had a HUD!)https://youtu.be/4NERBxn_nJU
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube at ‎@YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tyler Rogoway@Aviation_Intel
> 
> Here's the HUD setup in the AH-1W.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 36
> 5:42 AM - Dec 31, 2017
> Twitter Ads info and privacy
> See Tyler Rogoway's other Tweets
> 
> 
> The new Jordanian helicopters also have an improved OrbitalATK AN/AAR-47 missile approach warning system coupled with an Extant Aerospace AN/ALE-47 dispenser able to fire decoy flares and chaff. It’s not clear if there are any additional updates to the gunship’s defensive sensor suite and countermeasures systems planned for the future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BELL
> One of the cockpits of an AH-1Z showing the two main multi-function displays.
> 
> The most visible change is SES’ replacement of the original Telescopic Sight Unit, or TSU, with a new L3 Wescam MX-15D sensor turret, which is similar in both form and function to the Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-30A Target Sight System, or TSS, on the AH-1Z. The TSU was specifically for guiding the TOW anti-tank missile, an optically-tracked weapon that required the gunner to keep the sight on the target until the weapon hit its mark.
> 
> The new system contains both electro-optical and infrared cameras, as well as a laser designator. Not only does this combination of systems it make it more flexible than the older TSU, but it also greatly expands the crew's ability to use it for reconnaissance and surveillance missions, as well as target acquisition.
> 
> 
> The new Jordanian AH-1s combine the new sensor system with Hellfire missiles and Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System II laser-guided rockets, or APKWS II,. This pairing will give the gunships good flexibility against a variety of different targets.
> 
> The ever-popular Hellfires already come in a number of different types. According to Jane's 360, Jordan will primarily use the AGM-114R variant, which combines an anti-tank warhead with a fragmentation sleeve for use against both armored vehicles and soft targets. Other options include the tandem-warhead AGM-114K, which has a better chance to defeat countermeasures such as explosive reactive armor, and the thermobaric AGM-114N, ideal for engaging unarmored vehicles and enemy personnel both out in the open and inside buildings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US ARMY
> A breakdown of common Hellfire variants.
> 
> The smaller APKWS IIs mate a laser-guidance system to existing 70mm rockets and warheads, resulting in low-cost precision-guided munitions that can engage a variety of different targets. High explosive warheads are among the most common, but the U.S. military has begun building versions using the M282 warhead that has the ability to break through some armor and reinforced structures.
> 
> The rockets also have a smaller warhead than the Hellfires, which has allowed other military forces, including U.S. special operations forces, to use them to engage relatively small targets, such as individual enemy fighters in doorways and windows. And Since the AH-1s will be able to carry pods with seven or 19 of these weapons on one pylon, instead of just four Hellfires, it will drastically increase the total number of targets they can engage before needing to rearm, as well. And there’s always the gunship’s 20mm M197 three-barrel cannon under the nose, too.
> 
> 
> We don’t know the exact price Jordan is paying to upgrade each AH-1F, but it is very likely far cheaper than buying an AH-1Z straight off the production line. A new build Zulu Cobra costs more than $30 million, according to the U.S. military's latest budget request for the 2019 fiscal year.
> 
> The unit cost of an older twin-engine AH-1W when it rolled out of Bell Helicopter’s plant in 1986 was only around $22 million when adjusted for inflation to 2018 dollars. Single engine models such as the AH-1F were cheaper and the value of older Cobra types aircraft available on the secondary market is almost certain to have depreciated markedly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US ARMY
> A Jordanian Air Force AH-1F in its standard configuration.
> 
> It’s also possible that these upgrades could lead to additional improvements as time goes on. The sensor turret mount especially is readily suitable to other L3 Wescam offerings that could either offer more _or_ less capability as desired. It’s not hard to see other new features, such as a directional infrared countermeasures system, or DIRCM, to defeat infrared-guided anti-aircraft missiles or a new gun system, becoming available for the AH-1 series later on.
> 
> Despite there being no takers so far, various companies have pitched up-gunning programs for decades already, including swapping out the M197 for the single-barrel 30mm M230 chain-gun found on the AH-64 Apache. The lightweight M230LF version that is now available would be even better suited to any AH-1 platform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USMC
> The M197 on an AH-1Z.
> 
> As such, the upgrade package SES has put together for Jordanian Air Force, or a version thereof, could easily be a more cost-effective starting place for any country still operating older AH-1s or that is looking to do so. Jordan itself has donated AH-1Fs from its own stocks to other countries, such as Kenya and the Philippines.
> 
> More significantly, as the U.S. Marine Corps retires its AH-1Ws for good in favor of the AH-1Z, the U.S. military has begun actively looking for ways to modernize them for sale to foreign allies and partners. In December 2017, the Navy said it was interested in hiring a contractor specifically to install a new, commercially available off-the-shelf avionics update to help sweeten the deal, which sounds very much like what SES offered to Jordan.
> 
> As of May 24, 2018, there were already more than 30 “Whiskey Cobras” sitting at the Bone Yard at Davis Monthan Air Force Base in Arizona, according to a monthly U.S. Air Force inventory report. In March 2018, Brazil, which recently bought the helicopter carrier ex-HMS _Ocean_ from the United Kingdom, reportedly inquired about buying some of these gunships.
> 
> The United States has already had significant success selling off retired OH-58D Kiowa Warrior armed scout helicopters, particularly to allies in Europe and Africa. Combining AH-1Ws, or other second-hand Cobra types, with the SES upgrade package, could be an even more attractive option for small, cost-conscious military forces looking to bolster their capabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USMC
> A US Marine Corps AH-1W "Whiskey Cobra."
> 
> And countries that had expressed an interest in buying American gunship helicopters in the past, but may have been rebuked over human rights concerns and other issues, such as Nigeria, have found President Donald Trump administration much more willing to approve arms sales in general. Trump has even pushed for American diplomats to more actively promote American-made weapons.
> 
> There’s a distinct possibility that upgraded AH-1s similar to Jordan's new “AH-1Z Lite” gunships will end up in direct competition with the actual, production AH-1Zs. Bell has been steadily growing the Zulu Cobra customer base, but a lower cost alternative with many similar capabilities could definitely draw away potential buyers. If the cost is sufficiently low, the SES updated Cobras might also present some competition for other American-made and foreign light attack helicopters, as well.
> 
> It will definitely be interesting to keep an eye out for which countries decide to take the upgrade route and what Cobras they use as a starting place.
> 
> _Contact the author: jtrevithickpr@gmail.com_
> 
> 
> Another possibility is US marines are considering selling surplus up gradable AH-1Ws once they get more AH-1Zs. PA built AH-1Zs are exactly US Marine specs so can be transferred to them and Pakistan can pick up cheaper yet upgraded with same tech AH-1Ws. The Zulu was originally a upgrade to the Whisky Cobra.
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...its-ah-1w-super-cobra-attack-helicopter-fleet



If Pakistan goes for used Jordanian or Ex-USAF F-16s it should also try to make a push to get the AH-1Z, built for Pakistan, which are ready and in storage. Even the current 15 will be a significant force for COIN ops along the western borders if necessary.

If that fails, Pakistan should try to buy the upgraded Jordanian AH-1F/S and get the same upgrade for own current cobras, at least to provide for the FC, to protect convoys and escort QRF troops in transport helicopters. 12-20 ex-Jordanian AH-1F/S plus our entire fleet would be over 60 potential airframes dedicated for the FC. Considering most of these helicopters are past their service life, at least 30 could be operational and the rest of the helicopters could serve as spares to keep these birds flying for a couple more decades. That would give the FC the ability to dedicate enough helicopters to respond to a “troops in contact” situation more easily. 

Upgrading these older helicopters shouldn’t be seen as an issue considering they still wouldn’t be likely capable of defending themselves in a war with a country like India, but would be potent against militants at lower altitudes.

The PA really needs at least the 15 AH-1Z for the High altitudes and probably should also get at least a similar number of UH-1Y (which shares a lot with the AH-1Z) to fly alongside them and deliver SSG troops to those high altitudes.


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## nomi007

Pakistan army must consider KA-52 as alternative option.


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## alimobin memon

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> All wire guided and optically tracked? No fire and forget type ?


Not available.


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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Signalian

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> All wire guided and optically tracked? No fire and forget type ?


Induction of new gunship type will see FnF ATGM though wore guided are harder to jam.

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## Ali_Baba

nomi007 said:


> Pakistan army must consider KA-52 as alternative option.



Based on the performance of KA-52 - absolutely no.. it is Russian junk and best left to the Russians..

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## Sifar zero

Ali_Baba said:


> Based on the performance of KA-52 - absolutely no.. it is Russian junk and best left to the Russians..


How is it junk please explain.
And if you think getting shot down makes a specific equipment "Junk" then you are wrong.


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## alimobin memon

Ali_Baba said:


> Based on the performance of KA-52 - absolutely no.. it is Russian junk and best left to the Russians..


You think other attack heli's would have performed well ?


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## Ali_Baba

Sifar zero said:


> How is it junk please explain.
> And if you think getting shot down makes a specific equipment "Junk" then you are wrong.



The use of "Ballistic attack profiles" by Ka-52s in the ukraine war show how crap a platform it is .....


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A beautiful Mi-35M gunship

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Z10 ME would be a great enhancement for Pakistan's Military

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## python-000

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> A beautiful Mi-35M gunship
> View attachment 890890


We also need to increase the mi-35 numbers...

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## ghazi52

.,.

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## fatman17

The Last Marine AH-1 Delivered Marking Beginning Of The End Of The Huey Era


The aircraft is the last of the H-1 helicopters that came to embody the American experience in Vietnam, among other conflicts, over 60 years.




www.thedrive.com


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## fatman17

Bell delivers final Cobra attack helicopter to US Marine Corps


The H-1 programme, which encompasses the UH-1 utility and AH-1 attack helicopters and produced its first aircraft for the USA in 1959, will now be reliant on foreign customers for new sales.




www.flightglobal.com


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## ghazi52

.,.,,.

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## ghazi52

,.,.
At the moment Pakistan army aviation has the following helicopters in its fleet.
1. AH1F/S
2. Mi35M
3. H125M
4. AS355
5. Model 412
6. UH1
7. SA330S/M
8. IAR330
9. Mi17/171
10. AW139
11. SA316/319
12. SA315
13. S300
14. 280Fx


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## ghazi52

,..,
A Pakistan Army personnel firing M134 Gatling gun during an anti-terrorist operation!

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## ghazi52

In Balochistan....

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,
A Bell 412 of Pakistan Army Aviation inserting a squad of SSG commandos in a mountainous area of North Waziristan.

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## ghazi52

,.,..
AH-1F Cobra from Pakistan Army Aviation Close Air Support Squadron along with Armor Division in Baluchistan Region.....

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## Super Falcon

Time to replace MI 17 on step by step basis


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593335832911413250

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## Inception-06

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,..
> AH-1F Cobra from Pakistan Army Aviation Close Air Support Squadron along with Armor Division in Baluchistan Region.....
> 
> View attachment 896554



Why Ware you so dumb, and destroying every topic since years with your old and copy paste crap ! ? Why ? You have contributed nothing and nothing to this forum, you are post’s are not attractive neither interesting to discuss, you just alway open a lot of topics and do copy paste, copy paste copy paste Copy paste copy paste, because you @DESERT FIGHTER and me have stopped to post outstanding Multymedia context in the Pakistani Military Media section, I hate your Posts so much ! You have a great share in destroying this forum and transform it from a professional military disciplined think thank platform in a desi copy paste a la Facebook Style Monster Platform. Go to Hell ! I have watched you since 7 years.


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## ghazi52

Inception-06 said:


> Why Ware you so dumb, and destroying every topic since years with your old and copy paste crap ! ? Why ? You have contributed nothing and nothing to this forum, you are post’s are not attractive neither interesting to discuss, you just alway open a lot of topics and do copy paste, copy paste copy paste Copy paste copy paste, because you @DESERT FIGHTER and me have stopped to post outstanding Multymedia context in the Pakistani Military Media section, I hate your Posts so much ! You have a great share in destroying this forum and transform it from a professional military disciplined think thank platform in a desi copy paste a la Facebook Style Monster Platform. Go to Hell ! I have watched you since 7 years.


Same here. You seems to be too dumb to understand. Only bad mouth.
Do you have an issue, please let me know to sort it out.


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## Signalian

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,..
> AH-1F Cobra from Pakistan Army Aviation Close Air Support Squadron along with Armor Division in Baluchistan Region.....
> 
> View attachment 896554





ghazi52 said:


> Do you have an issue, please let me know to sort it out.


Relax.

1. There is no armored division in Baluchistan.
2. These MBT type shown in pics aren't deployed with armored divisions, unless they are AZs.
3. I am not sure if these are with FC or an armored regiment under 33 or 41 ID, since MBTs seem upgraded. That soldier standing in front of MBTs looks to be from FC and so do soldiers on top of tank as the usual black dungaree is not seen.

Your caption should have been,

"AH-1F Cobra from Pakistan Army Aviation Close Air Support Squadron along with *Armor unit* in Baluchistan Region".

I just hope this isn't a PS'ed image of AH1.

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## White privilege

ghazi52 said:


> ,..,
> A Pakistan Army personnel firing M134 Gatling gun during an anti-terrorist operation!
> 
> 
> View attachment 896026


This should be the only mounted weapon on helicopters. Get rid of those slow firing MG-3s.....

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## iLION12345_1

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,..
> AH-1F Cobra from Pakistan Army Aviation Close Air Support Squadron along with Armor Division in Baluchistan Region.....
> 
> View attachment 896554





Signalian said:


> Relax.
> 
> 1. There is no armored division in Baluchistan.
> 2. These MBT type shown in pics aren't deployed with armored divisions, unless they are AZs.
> 3. I am not sure if these are with FC or an armored regiment under 33 or 41 ID, since MBTs seem upgraded. That soldier standing in front of MBTs looks to be from FC and so do soldiers on top of tank as the usual black dungaree is not seen.
> 
> Your caption should have been,
> 
> "AH-1F Cobra from Pakistan Army Aviation Close Air Support Squadron along with *Armor unit* in Baluchistan Region".
> 
> I just hope this isn't a PS'ed image of AH1.


Actually, they’re the Type 69-IIs from the Quetta school of infantry and tactics, they have a few tanks for training purposes, and they’re not upgraded at all, apart from maybe the cages. They’re the only few remaining stock Type 69s left in the PA, you can tell by their 100MM guns, all others were upgraded to 105MM 

The picture isn’t photoshopped and is very old, the soldiers all look to be FC however yes.

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## Super Falcon

Scout attack helicopter for us army to fight future land warfare fully autonomous and manned helicopter integrated with DARPA


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## air marshal



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## python-000



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## nomi007



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## ghazi52

Transport/Medevac (medical evacuation) aircraft. ( Cessna 208B Grand Caravan}..

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## ghazi52

MFI-17 Mushshak Pakistan Army Aviation.

© Hamza Tariq

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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1601254448592224256

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## ghazi52

,..,

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1601791835860570112

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## Signalian

CSAW said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1601791835860570112


Not really.

COIN is priority.


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## CSAW

Signalian said:


> Not really.
> 
> COIN is priority.


Noted & thanks for your input.
However some would argue that Plenty of Unmanned Platforms [Candidates] are already queuing up for COIN.











__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575860332307759107

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588389486815514626

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1597435598218104833

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588493862523219968

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Army Flood Relief ...

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## CLUMSY

Wese i would hate to see the AH-1F go. Such an iconic, good looking piece of machinery.


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## Ali_Baba

CLUMSY said:


> Wese i would hate to see the AH-1F go. Such an iconic, good looking piece of machinery.



And i truly cant wait for PAA to drop the AH-1F and get the Atak-2 asap!!!! It is all about military capability increase.


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## CLUMSY

Ali_Baba said:


> And i truly cant wait for PAA to drop the AH-1F and get the Atak-2 asap!!!! It is all about military capability increase.


True. Asim munir saare AH1F mujh ko dedo 😞


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## python-000



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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Super Falcon

Pakistan must now convert atleast few of it's C 130 To AC 130 Gunship spooky role withers pak can monitor it's border with Afganistan 24/7 day and night and if needed on the spot these can unleash their hell fire on enemies of peace specially at night when these terrorists come out for infiltration this can be done cheaply and these terrorists can't hit these high flying aircrafts but these spookies can monitor their each movement and there is no passage to hide one detected UAV are good but their endurance and payload is very low so these can be handy to tackle current terrorists situation infiltration in pak borders

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## Super Falcon

Joe Biden administration considering to release AH1Z super viper for Pakistan army to fight on going terrorists infiltration operations to Pakistan may be the first of next year these will be delivered.

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## python-000

Super Falcon said:


> Joe Biden administration considering to release AH1Z super viper for Pakistan army to fight on going terrorists infiltration operations to Pakistan may be the first of next year these will be delivered.


hahahaha here we go again...


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## Super Falcon

İt seems f


python-000 said:


> hahahaha here we go again...


İt seems funny to you but pak USA negotiations going under way for Shakeel Afridi and few other things in return f 16 upgrades AH 1Z viper deliveries and fina I'll aid so wait you will hear it i have a source previously i was the one who told T 129 i canceled zargana integration on Acosta's just check the dates


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## NooriNuth

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1608765112428658688

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## Signalian

NooriNuth said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1608765112428658688


The things Huey can do 



ghazi52 said:


> .,.,


The workhorse of PAA


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## Flight of falcon

Where is this ????


----------



## GriffinsRule

Whats PA's excuse?

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## Flight of falcon

GriffinsRule said:


> View attachment 908716
> 
> Whats PA's excuse?




We need American permission to do anything short of painting… Americans have adamantly refused any upgrade requests unless done by them and paid in cash.

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## GriffinsRule

Flight of falcon said:


> We need American permission to do anything short of painting… Americans have adamantly refused any upgrade requests unless done by them and paid in cash.


This should have been done 10yrs ago no?

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## Flight of falcon

No we were too busy buying bulletproof BMW and jammers for the politicians while our soldiers were getting slaughtered on Toyota HiLex

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## Bratva

Flight of falcon said:


> No we were too busy buying bulletproof BMW and jammers for the politicians while our soldiers were getting slaughtered on Toyota HiLex



Have you seen the convoys of Army, Airforce and Naval chief? or that of 2 Star Generals in All branches ?

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## ghazi52

.,..,

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## Bossman

Flight of falcon said:


> We need American permission to do anything short of painting… Americans have adamantly refused any upgrade requests unless done by them and paid in cash.


That is not correct. PAC has upgraded AH1 for Turkish Missiles and US permission was not asked for or received.



GriffinsRule said:


> This should have been done 10yrs ago no?


It was

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## SQ8

Flight of falcon said:


> We need American permission to do anything short of painting… Americans have adamantly refused any upgrade requests unless done by them and paid in cash.


Lol - PA cobras underwent an upgrade with local HUD, new EFIS and all in Kamra without any foreign assistance along with tested capabilities of the Bakhtar Shikan weapon system. Maybe you need to change your username to Flight of Fancy.

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## Signalian

Apache used the same weapons as of PAA's AH-1 like the cannon and rockets. Maybe AH-1 wouldn't stand the fire or deflect 4 x RPGs fired at it. Sending in lone gunship is never a good idea. The flight formation is usually 3-4.

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## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> Apache used the same weapons as of PAA's AH-1 like the cannon and rockets. Maybe AH-1 wouldn't stand the fire or deflect 4 x RPGs fired at it. Sending in lone gunship is never a good idea. The flight formation is usually 3-4.


With enemy on mountains around you, helis are supposed to keep a healthy distance from the peaks instead of going below them. Ideal ambush scenarios for heli ambush.

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## ghazi52

,.,.
Pakistan Army Aviation Enstrom 280FX - 
Photo by Rehan Waheed

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## ali_raza

PanzerKiel said:


> With enemy on mountains around you, helis are supposed to keep a healthy distance from the peaks instead of going below them. Ideal ambush scenarios for heli ambush.


i didn’t understand why apachi wasn’t using flir to locate and destroy bogies rather engaging close quarters

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## ali_raza

PanzerKiel said:


> With enemy on mountains around you, helis are supposed to keep a healthy distance from the peaks instead of going below them. Ideal ambush scenarios for heli ambush.


sir why dont u enlighten us about ah1z

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## sparten

SQ8 said:


> Lol - PA cobras underwent an upgrade with local HUD, new EFIS and all in Kamra without any foreign assistance along with tested capabilities of the Bakhtar Shikan weapon system. Maybe you need to change your username to Flight of Fancy.


Wait when?

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## CLUMSY

Signalian said:


> Apache used the same weapons as of PAA's AH-1 like the cannon and rockets. Maybe AH-1 wouldn't stand the fire or deflect 4 x RPGs fired at it. Sending in lone gunship is never a good idea. The flight formation is usually 3-4.


True but i dont think our cobras have thermal imaging to complement


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## ghazi52

Army Aviation Base, Tarbela Ghazi. KPK.

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## SQ8

sparten said:


> Wait when?


Post 2000 -there was actually an article posted here either from Hilal or from another military magazine. Where a single Cobra was flown to Kamra - then they started off with fitting a HUD, then adding some additional instruments including gps before moving to BSWS

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## Signalian

CLUMSY said:


> True but i dont think our cobras have thermal imaging to complement


*Cobra Attains Night Strike Capability* - 2002

In 1997, America released some equipment for Cobras, under Brown Amendment. The most important item was the C-Nite kits. *Twenty seven of these kits when later received were without any proper literature and moreover only eight telescopic sights had been modified with C-Nite Forward looking Infra Red Radar(FLIR). These kits were vital to attain the capability of firing at night.* Modification process started on 11 th February 1998 and after years of hard work and ingenuity of mind from all concerned, the very capability was achieved on 28 lh February 2002. On 27th February, a night prior to final demonstration, a full dress rehearsal was arranged at Khudai Ranges all preparations were good except the firing result. *Out of four only one TOW hit the target*. This last minute performance shocked everyone as VCOAS (Gen. Yousaf) and 16 other senior officers of army were to witness it. Consequently complete headquarters alongwith GOC, Maj. Gen. Azam remained awake and tense till small hours of the morning while technicians worked on the C-Nite system of Cobras. *Problems were mainly due to bore sighting of the C-Nite which were duly resolved.*

On 28th February at 1730hours before the arrival of guests the weather started getting bad to worst with every passing moment and started drizzling. However, keeping in view the historic value of the moment and proficiency level of his pilots, commander combat group decided that 'demo' will continue. Combat Group digest of service records "every passing moment was increasing the heart beat of Combat pilots, everyone was sitting finger crossed and gazing in the dark, only helicopter sound was audible. Initially three cobras displayed nap of earth flying with NVGs, next came cannon firing which made the night colourful with the tracers drawing beautiful lines in the pitch dark night and bursting on impact like fire works. One cobra got disoriented and came very close to the stand. Then came the final moment, targets were made visible by hurricane lamps.* The first TOW was fired by Lieutenant Colonel Wasim Akhtar Malik, the bulls eye impact was greeted by a loud applause and Nara-e-Takbeer*. With each hit the emotions of combat pilots and all present were getting more and more visible, *when all four hits were achieved* the VCOAS and other senior officers congratulated everyone and a festive and jubilant mood prevailed.

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## sparten

SQ8 said:


> Post 2000 -there was actually an article posted here either from Hilal or from another military magazine. Where a single Cobra was flown to Kamra - then they started off with fitting a HUD, then adding some additional instruments including gps before moving to BSWS


Our avionics setup is a present surprise.

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## CLUMSY

Signalian said:


> *Cobra Attains Night Strike Capability* - 2002
> 
> In 1997, America released some equipment for Cobras, under Brown Amendment. The most important item was the C-Nite kits. *Twenty seven of these kits when later received were without any proper literature and moreover only eight telescopic sights had been modified with C-Nite Forward looking Infra Red Radar(FLIR). These kits were vital to attain the capability of firing at night.* Modification process started on 11 th February 1998 and after years of hard work and ingenuity of mind from all concerned, the very capability was achieved on 28 lh February 2002. On 27th February, a night prior to final demonstration, a full dress rehearsal was arranged at Khudai Ranges all preparations were good except the firing result. *Out of four only one TOW hit the target*. This last minute performance shocked everyone as VCOAS (Gen. Yousaf) and 16 other senior officers of army were to witness it. Consequently complete headquarters alongwith GOC, Maj. Gen. Azam remained awake and tense till small hours of the morning while technicians worked on the C-Nite system of Cobras. *Problems were mainly due to bore sighting of the C-Nite which were duly resolved.*
> 
> On 28th February at 1730hours before the arrival of guests the weather started getting bad to worst with every passing moment and started drizzling. However, keeping in view the historic value of the moment and proficiency level of his pilots, commander combat group decided that 'demo' will continue. Combat Group digest of service records "every passing moment was increasing the heart beat of Combat pilots, everyone was sitting finger crossed and gazing in the dark, only helicopter sound was audible. Initially three cobras displayed nap of earth flying with NVGs, next came cannon firing which made the night colourful with the tracers drawing beautiful lines in the pitch dark night and bursting on impact like fire works. One cobra got disoriented and came very close to the stand. Then came the final moment, targets were made visible by hurricane lamps.* The first TOW was fired by Lieutenant Colonel Wasim Akhtar Malik, the bulls eye impact was greeted by a loud applause and Nara-e-Takbeer*. With each hit the emotions of combat pilots and all present were getting more and more visible, *when all four hits were achieved* the VCOAS and other senior officers congratulated everyone and a festive and jubilant mood prevailed.


I see.

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## ghazi52

.,.
Pakistan army aviation has the following helicopters in its fleet.

1. AH1F/S
2. Mi35M
3. H125M
4. AS355
5. Model 412
6. UH1
7. SA330S/M
8. IAR330
9. Mi17/171
10. AW139
11. SA316/319
12. SA315
13. S300
14. 280Fx
15. AS 350 Ecureuil 
16.AS 550 Fennec

Any missing.


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## ghazi52

.,.,
PAA Early Days. L-19 Handing over.....

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## 3030

ghazi52 said:


> .,.
> Pakistan army aviation has the following helicopters in its fleet.
> 
> 1. AH1F/S
> 2. Mi35M
> 3. H125M
> 4. AS355
> 5. Model 412
> 6. UH1
> 7. SA330S/M
> 8. IAR330
> 9. Mi17/171
> 10. AW139
> 11. SA316/319
> 12. SA315
> 13. S300
> 14. 280Fx
> 15. AS 350 Ecureuil
> 16.AS 550 Fennec
> 
> Any missing.


Do they have AS355s?


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## Bossman

ghazi52 said:


> .,.
> Pakistan army aviation has the following helicopters in its fleet.
> 
> 1. AH1F/S
> 2. Mi35M
> 3. H125M
> 4. AS355
> 5. Model 412
> 6. UH1
> 7. SA330S/M
> 8. IAR330
> 9. Mi17/171
> 10. AW139
> 11. SA316/319
> 12. SA315
> 13. S300
> 14. 280Fx
> 15. AS 350 Ecureuil
> 16.AS 550 Fennec
> 
> Any missing.


Some of them have been retired including UH1, Llamas and Allouete 3s

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