# Notify PAF Aircraft Crashes



## melb4aust

PAF lost one of its F-7 Fighter jet during a normal training mission in Attock near Dhok Pathan. Unfortunately Pilot lost his life(Shaheed) too. Though there was loss of ground life. Airheadquarter has already formed an inquiry board to find out the reason of the crash. 

We have gotta wait for more latest news to find out who was the pilot, how this incident happen. 
But that was really bad for us, especially the loss of a life a pilot. We need JF-17 soon to phase out these old F-7's.

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## A.Rahman

didnt he had ejection system working ? any more info on this news?

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## EagleEyes

F-7 sure make the category of Mig-21s. Even though they are effective, but are really bad as far as the crashing rate goes. I think much of the causes of the crashing depends on the maintenance, air frame age, and total awareness of the planes condition which i am pretty sure Chinese and Russian fighters lack due to how their avionics is.

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## master_fx

wat kind F-7??? j-7a/b? j-7c/d? j-7mg?


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## EagleEyes

It was probably F-7PG or F-7P

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## Nasir

*Yeah man F-7 jet crashed and this time pilot didn't make it. Its really sad how our air force's crashing rates are increasing. :embarassed: *



> *Pakistan air force pilot killed in crash *
> 
> *Islamabad: A Pakistani air force pilot was killed when his fighter jet crashed Wednesday while on a routine operational training mission near Pindigheb town, 95 km southwest of here, officials said.
> 
> "The pilot of the aircraft received fatal injures but no loss of civilian life or property has been reported on the ground," an air force spokesman here said.
> 
> He said the Chinese-made F-7 aircraft crashed "apparently due to technical malfunction."
> 
> "A board of inquiry has been set up to determine cause of the accident," the spokesman added.
> 
> In addition to the US-made F-16 and French Mirage aircraft, the air force is currently flying Chinese-made F-7s, F-7PG and A-5 fighter planes.
> 
> The air force is also planning to introduce the Chinese-technology JF-17 Thunder aircraft to its fleet of warplanes in March 2007. The plane has been jointly manufactured by Pakistan and China. *
> 
> *http://www.newkerala.com/news2.php?action=fullnews&id=37434
> *

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## Bull

A.Rahman said:


> didnt he had ejection system working ? any more info on this news?


 
Probably he decided to be in the plane so that he can manouvoure the plane out off populated area.

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## melb4aust

Prashant said:


> Probably he decided to be in the plane so that he can manouvoure the plane out off populated area.


 
yeah you are right, it is sad and as well proud for a nation that their pilots risk their own lives to protect the life lives of others. 
I wish i could salute those guys:army: .
​

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## sigatoka

They should ground these old planes. These planes have no use in modern war. They can't even fly without crashing, how will they perform in combat?

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## melb4aust

Yeah i do agree, and obviously they are waiting for JF-17 induction to cover em up. 
These old copies of MIG-21 are a bit better, but still are the same species. No doubt that MIG-21 has performed well in the past, served many nations and also had a high fear ratio among the opponents, but that was a long time ago, things have changed alot in the last couple of decades. Should scrap all these old machines.


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## Neo

sigatoka said:


> They should ground these old planes. These planes have no use in modern war. They can't even fly without crashing, how will they perform in combat?


F-7P and F-7PG were a purchased as PAF was desperate for new fighters due another US imposed weapon embargo.
Once the JF-17 enters, it will start replacing obsolete fleet of AQ-5's and the F-7P's.

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## melb4aust

Another PAF fighter jet went down near Baldea town in Karachi:embarassed: . Fortunately pilot is safe. The name of the pilot, jet and all other details are still to come.


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## A.Rahman

they are dropping like flies.
get rid of them now !


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## Bull

A.Rahman said:


> they are dropping like flies.
> get rid of them now !


 
is the crashed one F-7 figher.


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## sword9

PAF is going through the same phase like the IAF in the 80's due to the aging Mig-21s. The only solution is new aircraft.


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## melb4aust

Unfortunately we would have to wait till the induction of JF-17. There is no other option as far as i see. But the good news is its not far, in march 2007:buck: .

That Mig-21 is really indeed a huge problem. Even the improved copies are not good any more. But its a most flown jet plane on planet. Just see how many nations are still using it. Its relatively cheap from all other AC's. It also had high fear ratio among many nations including US in the past.


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## Owais

melb4aust said:


> Another PAF fighter jet went down near Baldea town in Karachi:embarassed: . Fortunately pilot is safe. The name of the pilot, jet and all other details are still to come.


These jets are becoming flying coffins for PAF. they must replace them as soon as possible. 
why don't they replace them with F16A/B(which is urgently availible)?


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## EagleEyes

Guys it was NOT an F-7 aircraft it was PAFs Mirage VPA/PA2 or Mirage IIIDP.

*Pakistan air force plane crashes, pilot ejects safely* 
MIL-PAKISTAN-JET-CRASH 
Pakistan air force plane crashes, pilot ejects safely
ISLAMABAD, April 20 (KUNA) -- A jet fighter of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Thursday crashed in Southern Sindh province but there were no casualties, said a PAF Spokesman.

A Mirage fighter was on a routine training mission near Karachi port city and had developed some technical problems, the spokesman said in a statement.

The pilot ejected safely and there was no casualty on ground, he said, adding partial damage to property occurred.

The Air Headquarters has ordered an investigation, the statement said.(end) amn.
wsahttp://www.kuna.net.kw/home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=854367


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## Zeeshan S.

There is an increase the crash rate, its being increased year by year. I believe this year was the year in which PAF lost many aircrafts.


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## melb4aust

:shocked: Mirage too. Ahhh this isnt going very well for Pakistan, after F-7's Mirages are giving problems as well. On one side they losing jets :hrr: from the inventory, but on the other side risking the valuable lives of our pilots.


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## sword9

Mirages or F-7s, the air frames of boths these types of aircraft have been stretched to their limits. However, Mirages-IIIs are much safer than F-7s inspite of their age.

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## Bull

sword9 said:


> Mirages or F-7s, the air frames of boths these types of aircraft have been stretched to their limits. However, Mirages-IIIs are much safer than F-7s inspite of their age.


 
y wud u say that,sword???


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## sword9

Prashant said:


> y wud u say that,sword???


Due to our own good experience with the Mirage -2k


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## Bull

sword9 said:


> Due to our own good experience with the Mirage -2k


 
ok :thumbsup:


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## Owais

not all mirages are safe.
mirages upgraded to ROSE III standard are not only safe but also good interceptors of PAF.


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## miroslav

Owais said:


> not all mirages are safe.
> mirages upgraded to ROSE III standard are not only safe but also good interceptors of PAF.






A Rose upgraded Mirage-III P Crash near Masroor AFB.

Miro
http://forums.pakmilitary.net/uploads/post-118-1145957225.jpg


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## Neo

Whats the cause?
Rose upgrade doesn't include airframe structure modifications.
Mirages are old and metal fatigue, i.e. cracks in the airframe, tails or fins are the main reason the crash.


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## Munir

Something the atar engine. We have to wait cause investigations are not published yet.


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## melb4aust

It can be any thing, it's a machine so it can't be perfect. Aircrafts do crash, doesnt matter what kind, its not only mirages, migs or F-7's but other fighters too. Even a brand new shiny aircraft can crash, because its a machine. yeah old aircrafts do have a more probability ratio of having some thing wrong with the engine, airframes and other reasons.


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## miroslav

Bull said:


> Probably he decided to be in the plane so that he can manouvoure the plane out off populated area.


 
It's not Rand De Basanti.

Its real life.

You have less than a second to decide.

At emergency times (no matter how best pilot you are) it is sometimes very difficult to make decisions. 

We are all humans and every human is weak. (May be IAF pilot or PAF ones).

Sometimes you dont get time to even pull the ejection cord.

Or sometimes you pull it but it is jammed due to various reasons.

Only PAF can tell the exact technical truth.

Miro


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## melb4aust

miroslav said:


> It's not Rand De Basanti.
> 
> Its real life.
> 
> You have less than a second to decide.
> 
> At emergency times (no matter how best pilot you are) it is sometimes very difficult to make decisions.
> 
> We are all humans and every human is weak. (May be IAF pilot or PAF ones).
> 
> Sometimes you dont get time to even pull the ejection cord.
> 
> Or sometimes you pull it but it is jammed due to various reasons.
> 
> Only PAF can tell the exact technical truth.
> 
> Miro


There you go, He's right!!!

I know what i was feeling when i was doing 200 kmph on a car and he was on a plane may be doing more than 900 kmph. You have so little reaction time, if some thing goes wrong at that speed and it's really easy to loose senses:stupid: and your thinking power:idiot: . Thats why they choose pilots who are mentally strong and have strong senses:?: .


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## EagleEyes

Another aircraft crashed today. Same Mirages.. its time to say good bye to them, they have been here for more than 30 years.  




> *Pakistan air force jet crashes near Karachi*
> 
> AP
> 
> Islamabad: A Pakistan air force jet on a training flight crashed yesterday near the southern port city of Karachi, but the pilot ejected safely and no one was hurt on the ground, an official said.
> 
> The French-made Mirage aircraft went down "apparently due to technical malfunctioning" about 80km northwest of Karachi, Pakistan air force spokesman Commodore Sarfaraz Ahmed Khan said.
> 
> Authorities have ordered an inquiry into the crash, he said.
> The Pakistani air force has had a series of crashes in recent years.
> Another Pakistani air force Mirage jet went down near Karachi in April.
> Two weeks before that, a Chinese-made F-7 jet crashed due to technical problems in the northwest. The pilot was killed.
> 
> http://www.gulfnews.com/world/Pakistan/10040919.html
> ​


​


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## Zeeshan S.

oh not again. The attrition rate of PAF is probably now much higher than last year. This year we had the most crashes.

Thank god the pilot survived.


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## melb4aust

Yeah pilot's life and the life of people on the gorund is the main issue. Thank god no one hurt in the incident. 

JF-17 is coming:hrr: soon


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## miroslav

WebMaster said:


> Another aircraft crashed today. Same Mirages.. its time to say good bye to them, they have been here for more than 30 years.
> 
> 
> [/left]


 
Last time someone said that these Mirages can kick asses of IAF Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 fleet anytime.

They can also protect the PN from any IAF/IN air threat.

:idiot: :stupid: 



> JF-17 is coming:hrr: soon


 
Trust me. I am eagerly waiting. :bat: 

Miro


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## EagleEyes

> Trust me. I am eagerly waiting.


 
And you trust me, dont count on LCA.


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## melb4aust

LOL Thats our webby!!!!

Dont get me wrong, he is....


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## EagleEyes

> Last time someone said that these Mirages can kick asses of IAF Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 fleet anytime.
> 
> They can also protect the PN from any IAF/IN air threat.


 
If you have been a real pilot, and NOT a fake one you would have realized that a crash doesn't tell the capability of a fighter jet. Mirages will fight as they are plan to do, the person with the best tactic and skill will survive.

Cheers


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## Bull

WebMaster said:


> If you have been a real pilot, and NOT a fake one you would have realized that a crash doesn't tell the capability of a fighter jet. Mirages will fight as they are plan to do, the person with the best tactic and skill will survive.
> 
> Cheers


 
perfectly right,even a capable fighter will crash if its shell is fatigued or ill maintained.

Miro doesnt speak like pilot, he misses that "something" that we see in service personals.
Well at the sae tine there is a good chance that my assumption is wrong


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## EagleEyes

IAF has the huge technological edge. IAF uses some latest aircrafts lets just comepare the Dessault Aviation.

Pakistan has Mirage III/V while IAF has Mirage-2000 which is whole generation ahead!


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## Munir

WebMaster said:


> IAF has the huge technological edge. IAF uses some latest aircrafts lets just comepare the Dessault Aviation.
> 
> Pakistan has Mirage III/V while IAF has Mirage-2000 which is whole generation ahead!



I do not agree cause Mirage 2000H is same level as the block15 F16 in PAF service. Both were never upgraded and both are oldest variants. Compare that with ROSE 2/3... So I don't think that there is a huge difference. I agree that FBW has advantages. But a delta is a delta. Huge loads. High top speed. Fast turning and bleeding of energy. But when we talk about generations then there is not a big difference cause mirage 2000h is without BVR, HMS or glass cockpit. Neither intresting ECM or links...


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## melb4aust

We should start another thread to compare MirageIII with Mirage2000h:shocked: , i can do this good work, if some 1 agrees......


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## ajaybhutani

Munir said:


> I do not agree cause Mirage 2000H is same level as the block15 F16 in PAF service. Both were never upgraded and both are oldest variants. Compare that with ROSE 2/3... So I don't think that there is a huge difference. I agree that FBW has advantages. But a delta is a delta. Huge loads. High top speed. Fast turning and bleeding of energy. But when we talk about generations then there is not a big difference cause mirage 2000h is without BVR, HMS or glass cockpit. Neither intresting ECM or links...


indian M2K-H uses SUPER 530D BVR missile.


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## Munir

Would love to see picture of that. You could be correct on that but I have read somewhere the opposite.


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## ajaybhutani

Munir said:


> Would love to see picture of that. You could be correct on that but I have read somewhere the opposite.


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Current/Mirage.html

contains a lot of pics of m2k with super 530 .. 
btw can u paste the link stating the opposite??


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## Bull

Munir said:


> Would love to see picture of that. You could be correct on that but I have read somewhere the opposite.


 
It also carries the R-27TE1.

The R-27TE1 has a range of 130 km and a maximum speed of Mach 2.5, while the R-27RE1 has a range of 70 km and a maximum speed of Mach 2.5.


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## Munir

Well... The pudding looks good so why posting link that shows that pudding is not existing? Cool. Is there a specific reason for blue paint of the 530D?


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## melb4aust

*Pakistan has lost another helicopter near Banu in Barani dam*. Pak army helicopter *Bell-412* crash killing 4 people including 2 officers. There were 7 people in the helicopter at the time of crash. 3 out of those seven were the quite lucky to survive such a devestating crash. The hero Nazir who was working close by saved them in his motor boat. According to sources the helicopter was on its normal flight from Banu to Meran shah.


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## Bull

melb4aust said:


> *Pakistan has lost another helicopter near Banu in Barani dam*. Pak army helicopter *Bell-412* crash killing 4 people including 2 officers. There were 7 people in the helicopter at the time of crash. 3 out of those seven were the quite lucky to survive such a devestating crash. The hero Nazir who was working close by saved them in his motor boat. According to sources the helicopter was on its normal flight from Banu to Meran shah.


 
rebels have cliaimed tey downed it.


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## salman_ebox

Inshallah.. i m the feuture pilot and i will fly the jf-17 

this is my great desire of my life.(pilot)


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## salman_ebox

Guys the jf-17 of pakistan is more better then mig's of India. and it will give great support to the PAF.


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## salman_ebox

The redar used by the JF-17 is ...

Fire-control radar :


Italian FIAR Grifo S-7 on Pakistani built export versions. The Radar for Pakistan Airforce's JF-17 is not yet decided. However, early PAF JF-17s will most probably be equipped with Chinese radar which PLAAF will also be using.


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## Neo

salman_ebox said:


> The redar used by the JF-17 is ...
> 
> Fire-control radar :
> 
> 
> Italian FIAR Grifo S-7 on Pakistani built export versions. The Radar for Pakistan Airforce's JF-17 is not yet decided. However, early PAF JF-17s will most probably be equipped with Chinese radar which PLAAF will also be using.


 
Welcome to PFF!
Please introduce yourself in the PFF Cafe section and tell us all about yourself.
So, you're a pilot?

Its confirmed that first batches will have full chinese avionics but PAC will modify and improve the later versions with western avionics.

PAF JF-17 will have better performances than the FC-1.


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## melb4aust

*Thursday, 31/08/2006, 10:00pm (F-7 Trainer jet crahed)*

Pakistan Airforce's training fighter jet crahed shortly after take-off yesterday. According to local police, Thursday night at about 10:00 pm the PAF's F-7 fighter jet took-off from Masroor airbase for training mission. Shortly after take-off a technical problem occured. According to people near Toll Plaza, they saw aircraft catching fire. The Pilot of aircraft tried to saved the near by building and houses, he succeded but couldnt ejacted while trying to save people and lost his life. PAF has'nt mentioned and declared the name of the pilot yet.

*Source:* http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/sep2006-daily/01-09-2006/up02.gif


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## EagleEyes

It seems that the plane was FT-7, but a single seat fighter not the dual one.


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## Owais

melb4aust said:


> According to people near Toll Plaza, they saw aircraft catching fire. The Pilot of aircraft tried to saved the near by building and houses, he succeded but couldnt ejacted while trying to save people and lost his life. PAF has'nt mentioned and declared the name of the pilot yet.


 
I solute him:army: . he shows perfect professionalism.



WebMaster said:


> It seems that the plane was FT-7, but a single seat fighter not the dual one.


FT-7 is a single seater???:what1:


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## EagleEyes

> FT-7 is a single seater???


 
Hey Owais,

I am not sure if a single seater F-7 trainer exists in a PAF with the designation name of FT-7, as far as i have seen FT-7 is a dual seater trainer aircraft. In the case of this crash since one pilot has died, the aircraft could be just a regular F-7 aircraft assigned for higher traning sorties. So lets keep it as an F-7 aircraft, until more information is released to the press. What all i posted before was just an assumption.


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## EagleEyes

*Two die as small plane crashes in eastern Pakistan* 

A small plane crash in eastern Pakistani city of Lahore Friday killed two people on board, the NNI news agency quoting officials reported. 
The trainee aircraft of a local flying club came down at 3:25 p. m. and was completely destroyed, near the private Walton airport in Lahore, the capital of eastern province Punjab, said the NNI report. 

Causes of the crash were not immediately clear. 

The Lahore flying club is imparting course to intending pilots who are bound to get a license from Pakistan Civil Aviation Authority. 

Source: Xinhua 

http://english.people.com.cn/200609/30/eng20060930_307732.html


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## Zeeshan S.

Another Mirage aircraft crashed today.


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## melb4aust

Zeeshan S. said:


> Another Mirage aircraft crashed today.



Very sad news, plus the loss of life is more sad than any thing. God bless his soul.

Just few more months until thunder arrives.....


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## Owais

Zeeshan S. said:


> Another Mirage aircraft crashed today.



we must get rid of these 40 year old birds or they will continue eating our valuable pilots.:wall:


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## Owais

*PAF Mirage Aircraft crashed near Dera Ismail Khan *


ISLAMABAD (updated on: November 20, 2006, 16:48 PST): A Mirage Aircraft on Monday crashed 30 miles east of Dera Ismail Khan while on a routine operational training mission.

According to a press release issued here by Directorate of Public Relations of Pakistan Air Force the pilot of the aircraft ejected safely.

No loss of civilian life or property on ground has been reported.

The crash apparently occurred due to technical malfunction. A board of inquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident.


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## Neo

Thursday, December 21, 2006 
! 
PAF Mirage aircraft crashes  

KARACHI: A Mirage aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), which was on a routine operational training mission, crashed about 15 miles north of Karachi on Wednesday.

According to a PAF spokesman, the aircraftÃ¢â¬â¢s pilot ejected safely and no casualty or damage to property was reported on the ground. He said that the aircraft had taken off from a PAF base and crashed some two to three miles away from a populated area. A board of inquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters in Islamabad.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\12\21\story_21-12-2006_pg12_4


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## HAIDER

Chinese using locally manufactured ejection seats in JF17 too or any other country is supplier ?


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## Neo

I'm not sure but PAF's F-16A/B are equipped with Martin-Baker's.
How good are the chinese seats?


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## blain2

All of the existing PAF aircraft have Martin Baker 0/0 ejection seats. This includes all of our Mirages, F-7s, A-5s, (F-16s being an exception as they have ACESII ejection seats) and in the past even on the F-6s. This has been a very wise investment as it has really helped greatly in bumping up pilot survivability. 

The Mirage in question went down due to a bird hit.


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## blain2

Former PAF CAS (Kaleem Sadaat) has been on record to state that PAF will never have an "entirely" Chinese aircraft. It will always have some level of outside integration and I suspect, MB ejection seats will always be one of the things that will be part of this integration.


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## Owais

blain2 said:


> The Mirage in question went down due to a bird hit.


thats amaizing!
how can a bird hit crash down a fighter jet?


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## Muradk

Owais said:


> thats amaizing!
> how can a bird hit crash down a fighter jet?



*Owais its just plain simple physics.
September 7, 1997. An Israel Air Force F-16 fighter worth more than $20 million streaks low during training exercises above the Negev Desert. Suddenly a honey buzzard smashes through the windscreen. Because of the plane's 900-kilometer-per-hour (560-mph) speed, the bird hits with an impact of about 25 tons. Captain E and First Lieutenant G (their names are classified) bail out. The captain suffers only a broken nose, but the lieutenant's leg is later amputated.

August 10, 1995. While on a routine training mission, an F-15 Falcon going about 1,000 kilometers per hour (620 mph) collides with three migrating white storks. Two of them strike the jet's body and the third is sucked into the engine. Each three-kilo (6.6-lb.) bird hits with a force of about 40 tons. Within seconds, the $50 million jet erupts in flames, inverts and crashes into the Negev. Captain Ronen Lev, the pilot, and Captain Yaron Vivante, the navigator, are killed.

Since 1972, there have been 1,282 "bird hits" with fighter jets, 696 with helicopters and 637 with transport planes and light aircraft. In most cases, the pilots and planes managed to survive. The birds didn't
PAF since 1965 have lost more than 20 planes due to bird hit. and 1 C-130 , I am sending C-130 photo to mod and request him to put it in this thread. 

The product of average force and the time it is exerted is called the impulse of force. From Newton's second law 
the impulse of force can be extracted and found to be equal to the change in momentum of an object provided the mass is constant:

Calculation 

The main utility of the concept is in the study of the average impact force during collisions. For collisions, the mass and change in velocity are often readily measured, but the force during the collision is not. If the time of collision can be measured, then the average force of impact can be calculated

Estimate the average impact force between an plane traveling at 600 mi/hr and a 1 pound duck whose length is 1 foot. This is an example of the use of impulse of force. 

IMpluse = F average ^T= m^v
F average= m* ^v/^T
after calculation it is 12.1 tons of impact.*


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## EagleEyes

As requested.


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## EagleEyes

Sir, 

Did the aircraft later on recovered for operational services?


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## Muradk

Did you get the C-130 photo , the plane was hit by 3 Vulchers , The Nose was damaged beyond reparis so they changed it the wing and the tail were later replaced in Peru.


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## EagleEyes

Sir,

The picture is posted at the 7th page and is the last post.

Thanks for your information.


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## TomCat111

WebMaster said:


> As requested.



Ouch! That's one nasty hit.........


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## Muradk

AN Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG-23 fighter plane crashed over a residential area in Mullanpur Dakha village, 15 km from Ludhiana, at around 10.30 am on April 4, 2003 claiming the lives of five civilians. The fighter plane had taken off on a routine sortie from the Halwara airbase, 14 km from the crash sight, when it caught fire in mid-air. Flt. Lt. P. S. Gill, who was flying the aircraft, ejected minutes before the crash. A technical snag is attributed to the crash. A couple of days later on April 6, a MiG- 21 crashed after take-off in Ambala injuring five civilians.

Earlier, a MiG-21 aircraft had crashed on December 26, 2002, near Srinagar, killing one civilian.

The IAF spokesman Squadron Leader R K Dhingra said in Delhi that the possibility of the aircraft being hit by a missile or ground fire was ruled out. His comments came in the wake of security forces recovering Pakistani surface-to-air missile 'Anza' from terrorist hideout in the border district of Kupwara recently.




The MiG-21 was of the type-75 variant. As many as 20 MiG-23 aircrafts have crashed so far. They were inducted into the IAF two decades back and the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence has been repeatedly asking the government to phase them out. The government, however, has ruled out phasing out of these warplanes saying that massive upgradation of the MiGs was underway.

MiG-23: Major crashes

April4, 2003 Halwara

June 26, 2002 Halwara

July 5, 2001 Jodhpur

March 12, 2001 Halwara

May10, 2000 Halwara

April 25, 2000 Patiala

March 25, 2000 Kargil

February 2, 1999 Halwara

October 1, 1998 Halwara

October 9, 1997 Halwara

May 8, 1997 Halwara

March 9, 1997 Halwara

June 5, 1996 Jodhpur

December 26,1995 Adamapur

March 20, 1993 Jodhpur

September 10, 1992 Adampur

April 3, 1993 Jodhpur

May 17, 1989 Ahmedabad

September 22,1987 Una

November, 28,1983 Tilpat Range

MiG-21: Historical facts

The MiG-21 has the record of being the most successful jet-powered aircraft ever in terms of numbers built and exported. It has served with more nations and has fought in more wars than any other fighter ever - including aircraft from the two world wars.

The MiG-21 first flew in its prototype form in 1955 in the then USSR. There were two prototypes actually, the other one codenamed Faceplate by NATO. Eventually, the Fishbed was selected. Its popularity spread quickly, especially among Soviet-allied countries. This plane was cheap, small, powerful, rugged, and supersonic at all altitudes and handled better than anything before from the Soviet Union. It was purchased by countries from Afghanistan to Yugoslavia, and even China built an unlicensed copy called the J-7 and exported it to Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Albania, among other countries, all of which still have the F-7 (export designation of J-7) operational in their air force. The IAF also inducted it.

The 1971 war, proved the mettle of the MiG-21, which outclassed many enemy fighters, and proved itself to be an integral part of the Air Force. With its short takeoff and good maneuverability, it stood out as an excellent interceptor for its era.

From 1980, the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) acquired a license to build the MiG-21s in India itself. This meant that the IAF could induct a large number of MiG-21s. The !AF has about 400 of these planes.

*IAF crashes*

From 1965 to 2002, the IAF has lost 135 MiG-21s, either due to crashes, bird hits, enemy fire or other reasons. In other words, the country's complete inventory has been written off once over without fighting a war. The Indian Air Force has lost close to 200 fighter pilots in accidents, most of them involving the antiquated MiG-21 series of aircraft. The total losses to the Indian Air Force during 2002 alone have been 17planes. The breakdown is - MiG-21, 12; MiG-23, 1; MiG-27, 2 and Jaguar, 2.

*Main causes*

The original airframe is now nearly fifty years old, and some aircraft serving in the IAF are 20 to 25 years old. This time span is not much for civilian aircraft, but it is a worrying factor for a high performance fighter jet. Metal fatigue is now creeping into some of the original Fishbeds bought from the USSR, while some of its problems such as high landing speed can be troublesome to fresh pilots.

It was in the early &#8216;80s that IAF asked a committee to go into the causes of so many crashes. It was the La Fontaine Committee, headed by Air Chief Marshal La Fontaine, the then Chief of Air Staff himself, which had stated in unequivocal terms that the causes could be attributed to three main causes: bird hits, maintenance failure and pilot error. For pilot error, which in turn, implied a failure of the establishment to train the pilots, the main cause was the qualitative jump, which the pilot was required to take from sub-sonic aircraft like Kirans and Ishkaras to super sonic aircraft flying at Mach 2 speed, like the MiG 21. It was around 1985 that the Committee had recommended that the IAF should acquire the Advanced Jet Trainers (AJT). Acquisition of 66 aircraft was sanctioned in 1986. However, they are yet to be acquired.

As many as 62 per cent of the cases involved the MiG-21 fighters made by the HAL in the 1960s. The "human factor" caused 42 per cent of the crashes, technical malfunctions 44 per cent, and collisions with birds 7 per cent. As for the training of IAF pilots, there is complete absence of the necessary equipment and infrastructure.

Quite a few aircrafts in the IAF are old, and need to be replaced. Currently the IAF has sent some of its newly built MiG-21s to the HAL to upgrade them to MiG-21-93 or MiG-21-UPG.

So what is the fate of the MiG-21? With the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme not slated to take flight by 2006 at least, all MiG-21s cannot be discarded immediately.

Some of the experts feel that the IAF should keep only three variants of the MiG-21 operational&#8212; the MiG-21-93 (16 of which were inducted this year), the MiG-21Bis (a better version of the original MiG-21) and the MiG-21MF electronic warfare variant. The remaining MiG-21s should be slowly phased out over the next four-five years, followed by earlier MiG-23s. The moment the LCA enters service, the MiG-21Bis should be retired too, and only the MiG-21-93 should be kept running till 2010 when they can be retired gracefully.

*Cost factor*

While the cost of each aircraft is about Rs 100 crore, the cost of the training of pilots is about Rs 23-45 crore per pilot (Fifth Pay Commission's Report Volume III page 1921). Thus, the loss of a pilot, apart from being a human life lost with all its tragic consequences, is a heavy cost to the exchequer. Thus in the period since 1 April 1993, India has incurred a loss of Rs10, 000 crore on account of the cost of the aircraft lost and another Rs 2250 crore on account of the loss of the pilots. These huge costs have been largely due to the Indian establishment dragging its feet over the purchase of AJT which would have cost Rs 660 crore initially, and now Rs 3600 crore. The moot point is whether this is just a case of penny- wise and pound foolish or is there something more sinister to it?
*
Pilot error*
The second cause of crashes is pilot error and the poor quality of intake. In an interview, former Air Chief Marshal Sareen stated most unequivocally that standards at the time of intake have been compromised. It is for this reason that a trainee, who is expected to go in for a solo after about 7-10 sorties is now doing so after more than 25 sorties.

*Poor maintenance*

The root cause of the great number of crashes of the MiG-21 fighters of the IAF is the bad maintenance and "substandard uncertified" spares to the force.

The Daily Izvestia said quoting experts that the certified quality spares imported from Russia were being re-exported by HAL to Algeria and Vietnam while the IAF was being supplied with "cheap and uncertified spares picked from former Warsaw Pact countries in Eastern Europe and CIS countries."

In some cases, the planes were a product of 'cannibalisation,' with the front portion being picked from one country, wings from another and the engine from the third. Some of these planes were delivered to the IAF after overhauling in Romania, while others were overhauled on IAF's order by HAL in India.

Against this backdrop and to protect the prestige of its brand, the Russian Aircraft corporation MiG (RAC MiG) has been seeking access to the investigations into the crashes of MiG-21 trainer jets to no avail.

The Russian side has already raised some of these issues in April at the Moscow session of the Indo-Russian sub-group on aviation attended by senior officials of HAL and the IAF.

During the course of the last three years, Defence Minister George Fernandes has publicly stated on several occasions that the British Hawk AJT deal has been finalised and 66 of them would be shortly acquired. However, the defence ministry sources say the deal has not yet come through because of the 'price factor'. The purchase of 66 Hawk AJTs will reportedly cost over US $ 3 billion now due to cost escalation. 

* 
&#8220;The Ministry of Defence is a non-professional body&#8221;*

WHILE the MiG variants crash and the recommendations of the high-powered committee of flight safety on fighter aircraft accidents remain mere recommendations, young pilots lose their lives while vital decisions are kept on the backburner. Retired Air Marshal M. M. Singh, former AOC-in-C of the Western Command, in an interview with Aruti Nayar talks of the reasons responsible for so many air crashes of MiG-21.

*What are the reasons for so many MiG crashes?*

All accidents are caused by pilot error, technical flaws and maintenance lapses.

Due to the absence of Advanced Trainer Jets, for a young pilot to make the transition from flying a Kiran to a MiG is a big leap. Since we have no intermediary aircraft, what happens is, it becomes difficult for the structural staff to impart operational training and competence to the young pilots. Fighter flying is not just about flying from A to B but learning to operate the aeroplane as a weapon of war and using it to its optimum ability. The training suffers because it is akin to trying to drive a Ferrari on a racing track after learning driving on a Maruti 800. Earlier, we had the Hunters, so from the Kiran to the Hunters was the transition. After the collapse of the erstwhile Soviet Union there was a shortage of spares so we bought a lot of spares of doubtful quality from the erstwhile satellite countries. The Russians were extremely particular about spares and there was extensive documentation with every aircraft. Moreover, a young pilot flying a high-demand aircraft can not handle an emergency.

Technically, modern aircraft have two engines whereas these aircraft have only one engine. The MiG-29 is a younger, more modern aircraft. During my tenure too we had lost few aircraft due to rear fuselage overheating. When we contacted HAL, we were told that it was due to poor maintenance or faults on the part of IAF technicians. It was only when we saw machines that had been ferried straight from the HAL factory with burn marks, before any of our technicians had even touched them, could we convince the HAL. There was very little gap between the engine and the rear fuselage. As far as assembling of parts and indigenous manufacture goes, there is a lack of stringent quality control and adequate supervision.

*Why don&#8217;t we ground the MiGs?*

Two-thirds of the IAF is flying MiGs. How can you reduce the capacity from 40 squadrons to 10 squadrons? The Germans had the same problem with F-104. They can only be phased out if we have an alternative. With lengthy procedures and convoluted systems which prevent things from moving fast, vital policy decisions are allowed to drag on, without any thought for the consequences.

The perks and pay of the IAF pilots are five times less than those of the airline pilots, while the risk to life is ten times more. Due to lack of availability, is the IAF settling for those with a lower flying aptitude?

India is such a vast country and there is so much of unemployment that even if you do not get recruits from the upper middle class families any more, you do continue to get youth from middle class and the lower middle class. So even if the upbringing of the young recruits varies, there is no way that the flying aptitude is compromised. No way will the son of a JCO have a lower flying aptitude, even if he can&#8217;t eat with a fork and knife. I don't think the force has to compromise on the flying aptitude.

*Why this laxity in procuring AJTs and upgradation of the existing aircraft and replacement by the LCA?*

About 20 years ago, the Air Force was equipped with trans-sonic Hunters, Mistaires and Gnats. Intermediary aircraft is needed not only for flight safety but also for building up of the operational capability of the pilot. There were squadrons where young pilots would be given flying experience much before they flew fighter planes. One reason that they could not be phased out by the LCA is because we do not possess the experience, industry and manufacturing as well as design capability to manufacture LCA. The Ministry of Defence is a non-professional body and the Ministry of Finance handles defence finance, as a consequence, bureaucratic red tapism affects all decisions. If we had the money to buy Su-30, why not AJTs? Had we bought the AJTs 10 years back, it would have cost us one-fifth of what it would now. Perhaps, if an odd Air Chief had resigned on the issue to drive home the point, it would have registered and placed the responsibility squarely on the government. How can those who have been trained for revenue administration understand vital policy matters pertaining to defence? Quotations are sought, files keep going up and down and adding up but no significant decisions are ever taken. All these things have been allowed to slide for far too long. I agree that some of the defence officers too make money but all the deals are signed by the bureaucrats.

*Can the IAF abdicate responsibility?*

Perhaps our failure has been the inability to convince the politicians and bureaucrats to build up air power to an extent that gives us advantage in South Asia. Superior air power can help us tackle terrorism in an effective manner. Due to inadequate intelligence back-up, the Army takes long to retaliate, while air power is instant. We should hone our air power to gain an advantage over Pakistan in the ongoing proxy war. Strikes in no-flying zones, smart bombs and surgical strikes (pinpoint strikes) can help us gain advantage in south Asia over China and Pakistan strategically.

Would not such accidents prevent parents from sending their wards to join the IAF or demotivate the youngsters as well. As it is these aircraft have been called "flying coffins."

It is the media that calls them flying coffins and not the Air Force. Talk to any pilot from a MiG squadron, you will find them fiery, motivated and enthusiastic. The fighter pilot is a different breed altogether. Youngsters would continue to dare. Despite all warnings for safe driving and following road rules, do youngsters not speed on their bikes? Yes, the parents can be put off. That is why the media should desist from blowing up of all accidents and magnifying them. Accidents do happen and wherever you fly in the Indo-Gangetic plain, there will be a village, so it is unavoidable to crash in an inhabited area. Each day giving news related to the accident serves no purpose. A terse few lines to say that an accident has occurred are enough.


----------



## Janbaz

*PAF jet crashes near Jhang*

Updated at 2400 PST 
JHANG: A Mirage jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has crashed near Jhang, while no casualties are reported.

Sources in PAF said that the jet crashed due to some technical error, while investigations to find out the causes of the incident are underway.

The News.
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp#17133.


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## Introvert

Janbaz said:


> *PAF jet crashes near Jhang*
> 
> Updated at 2400 PST
> JHANG: A Mirage jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has crashed near Jhang, while no casualties are reported.
> 
> Sources in PAF said that the jet crashed due to some technical error, while investigations to find out the causes of the incident are underway.
> 
> The News.
> http://thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp#17133.



Thank God, there were no casualties


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## Owais

*PAF jet crashes near Jhang *

JHANG: A Mirage jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has crashed near Jhang, while no casualties are reported.

Sources in PAF said that the jet crashed due to some technical error, while investigations to find out the causes of the incident are underway. 

http://geo.tv/geonews/details.asp?id=1527&param=1


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## Adux

I hope the Pilot is ok,
Lots of crashes happening for the PAF especially in the last 2 years


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## falcone

Hope he's ok, too.


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## Abs

pilot ejected

the old mirages and F-7's are crashing quite a bit - good thing they are schedueled to get phased out i think sometime starting in 2008.


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## Muradk

Abs said:


> pilot ejected
> 
> the old mirages and F-7's are crashing quite a bit - good thing they are schedueled to get phased out i think sometime starting in 2008.



With what ?


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## Bull

Muradk said:


> With what ?



With JF-17, i guess.


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## Abs

Muradk said:


> With what ?





Bull said:


> With JF-17, i guess.



JF-17 is the aircraft that is planned to replace the old F-7 and mirages


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## Introvert

*Pakistan air force jet crashes in training flight; pilot ejects safely​*ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: A Pakistani air force jet crashed during a training flight Wednesday in the eastern province of Punjab, but the pilot ejected safely and no one was injured on the ground, an official said.

The French-made Mirage fighter went down because of technical problems near Jhang, a city about 290 kilometers (180 miles) southwest of the capital, Islamabad, air force spokesman Cmdr. Sarfaraz Ahmed Khan said.

The air force has ordered an inquiry, Khan said. He provided no details of the technical problems.

Pakistan has seen several of its military planes crash in recent years. The previous crash was in December, when another Mirage jet went down shortly after takeoff from an air base near the southern city of Karachi.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/07/asia/AS-GEN-Pakistan-Fighter-Jet-Crash.php


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## Introvert

Thanks to Allah, the crash wasn't fatal.


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## Neo

Another Mirage?
Man, its getting out of hand!


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## EagleEyes

We need new aircrafts as soon as possible. Where is Sir. Murad? Call Sir ACM Tanvir Mahmood now.


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## Muradk

Last month when i went I did meet all Tanveer , Rashid, Auranzab DCAS T, Shaquat DSAC Ops, and trust me they are on it. But the final decision maker is you know who.
Plus friends lets me tell you that we have been having crashes since independence. the only problem now is that media is every where things happen and it is on the net in a sec.


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## Neo

Muradk said:


> Plus friends lets me tell you that we have been having crashes since independence. the only problem now is that media is every where things happen and it is on the net in a sec.



Oh gawd, now it will be all over the international fora but only the "*we have been having crashes since independence*" part.


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## melb4aust

Another F-7 fighter jet crashed, near Karachi due to bird strike. Pilot was able to gain control, to the very moment to take the aircraft out of the populated area, in the end ejected safely near masroor airbase. 

Another one.....


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## Bull

Bird hit, is just unlucky.

There are slums that come up near every airport/or a marshy land near by( atleast in India) that attracts crows and other birds to it.


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## Muradk

Bull said:


> Bird hit, is just unlucky.
> 
> There are slums that come up near every airport/or a marshy land near by( atleast in India) that attracts crows and other birds to it.



You havent seen Chaklala AB, Masroor, Peshawar, Minhas ( Birds hits ) 
Sargodha, shorkot ( wide bores) , 1993 F-16 lands and a big bang and the next thing we find out the nose of the plane is on the ground, we go and see to our surprise a wild bore hit the front wheel, Shorkot 1979 2 mirages went down while doing night flying the planes used to touch down and takeoff. Wild bore are attracted to light and they run towards the light 2 mirages went down like that. That night we killed more than 200 wild bore using a helicopter but the buggers still cause problems to many sugar cain fileds near the Air base.


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## melb4aust

Another one down didnt get full details yet, dont even know about the conditionof the pilot.



Bring up the thunders quickly........


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## A.Rahman

Muradk said:


> You havent seen Chaklala AB, Masroor, Peshawar, Minhas ( Birds hits )
> Sargodha, shorkot ( wide bores) , 1993 F-16 lands and a big bang and the next thing we find out the nose of the plane is on the ground, we go and see to our surprise a wild bore hit the front wheel, Shorkot 1979 2 mirages went down while doing night flying the planes used to touch down and takeoff. Wild bore are attracted to light and they run towards the light 2 mirages went down like that. That night we killed more than 200 wild bore using a helicopter but the buggers still cause problems to many sugar cain fileds near the Air base.




why cant they fence the airbase with 240V running around?


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## Owais

*PAF jet crashes, pilot killed *

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force F-7 aircraft of Pakistan Air Force during a routine operational training mission crashed on Tuesday near Quetta.

According to PAF spokesman, one of the pilots Flight Lt. Gulfam Soomro embraced shahadat while another ejected safely. 

Meanwhile, an enquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters into the incident.

http://geo.tv/geonews/details.asp?id=3354&param=1


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## ahf_nuke1

Tuesday March 13th
Chengdu F-7 (Air Base near Quetta) Crashed during training in south-western Pakistan. No ground casualties. Pilot Flight Lt. Gulfam Soomro taken to a military hospital in Quetta but died later. No ejections reported yet. If any one got more information please post.

My condolences to Family and Paf.


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## melb4aust

Recently crashed F-7.


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## Introvert

*Pakistan mirage fighter aircraft crashes*
Posted April 25th, 2007 by Tarique
Muslim World News

Islamabad, April 25 (Xinhua) A fighter aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed in Punjab province Wednesday, officials said.

"Pakistan Air Force reports with regret that a mirage fighter aircraft, while on a routine operational training mission, crashed near Shorkot, Jhang," a PAF statement said.

 The pilot ejected safely and no loss of life or property has been reported on the ground. thanks to Allah(Subhana Wa Ta'ala))

The crash apparently occurred due to technical reasons, it said.
http://www.indianmuslims.info/news/...pakistan_mirage_fighter_aircraft_crashes.html


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## A.Rahman

Islamabad: Pakistan Air Force Mirage Fighter Aircraft on Wednesday crashed near Shorkot, Jhang. No loss of life or property was reported.

The aircraft was on a routine operational training mission when it crashed near Shorkot, Jhang. The Pilot of the aircraft ejected safely. No loss of life or property has been reported on ground, PAF spokesman said.

The crash apparently occurred due to technical reasons. A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters.


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## ahussains

What is going on there are too many craches these days are the fighters are tooo old now or some maintanence problems


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## saniya

flt gulfam soomro who died on that plane crash on 13 march 2007 was a very close friend of mine. He was here in Lackland airforce base at texas USA, with me for some flying related courses. He was gem of a person, a man of character and words, so innocent, religious and very patriotic the cause of the crash was the broken or loosen canopy and his brother told me that he could've gotten out of that plane but he refused to and let his senior flt usman ejected cuz the crash could've done a lot of damage to the civilian residential area.


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## Neo

Sorry again for your loss Sanya ji, I consider all PAF men to be brave national hero's, countries dearest trasure.


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## EagleEyes

I dont understand one thing. Why not do the normal sorties on places where isn't a lot of population living there.


----------



## SADA GEO PAK

salam 
we lost heros and history makers saniya your post really i feal hurted ALLAH may bless our heros soul man i wait for jf get rid of mirages man just get rid cant afford to loss our best man in this way 

Yeh Pak Watan hai Ghar Apna, Hum is ko Sawarien gaye, Mushkilon mein La-ilaha pukaraien gaye.


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## Muradk

saniya said:


> flt gulfam soomro who died on that plane crash on 13 march 2007 was a very close friend of mine. He was here in Lackland airforce base at texas USA, with me for some flying related courses. He was gem of a person, a man of character and words, so innocent, religious and very patriotic the cause of the crash was the broken or loosen canopy and his brother told me that he could've gotten out of that plane but he refused to and let his senior flt usman ejected cuz the crash could've done a lot of damage to the civilian residential area.



Saniya than you must have met my nephew Fl/lt Rahim he was with Soomro I am posting some photos which one is soomro.


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## Muradk




----------



## saniya

sir murad....if you are talking about fl/tl rahim shahab then no i have not met him cuz 108gdp left before 112gdp came in and i wasnt at lackland that time. None of these pictures has gulfam in it, in first one i can only recognize fl/tl fahad(far left sitting), second one i dont know who is he, third one is fl/tl zeeshan and usman sohail, last one i cant see his face so i dont know if hez gulfam or not....but ill try to post some of his pictures here if only i could figured out how to..... beside i m at work


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## saniya

may be I shoudnt say that but appearently for some weird reason we always lose the most quite person around and people who give speeches over there patrioitism, shahadat and how good they are or wutnot won't even get a scratch....i don't mean to give anybody resentful displeasure, Its just that he was the last person anybody or atleast me could even think of something happening to.... i guess its fate, may Allah give him the hightest rank in jannah.....Ameen


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## ahussains

saniya said:


> flt gulfam soomro who died on that plane crash on 13 march 2007 was a very close friend of mine. He was here in Lackland airforce base at texas USA, with me for some flying related courses. He was gem of a person, a man of character and words, so innocent, religious and very patriotic the cause of the crash was the broken or loosen canopy and his brother told me that he could've gotten out of that plane but he refused to and let his senior flt usman ejected cuz the crash could've done a lot of damage to the civilian residential area.



If you saying this He will be a great man to save many life of the peoples .... 

Allah un ki Maghfirat Farmaeay (Ameen)


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## Shehz

There you guys go!

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/


----------



## Neo

*PAF lost 11 aircraft to âbird strikesâ in 2006 *

Karachi

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF), in recent months, lost two fighter aircraft in the metropolis due to âbird strikeâ, causing great loss in terms of valuable national equipment. This was said by Air-Vice-Marshal, Rao Qamar Suleman, Air Officer Commanding, Southern Air Command on Wednesday during a briefing on âhazards associated with bird activities in the Karachi areaâ.

Air-Vice-Marshal Qamar also said that the pilots, luckily managed to divert the aircraft from the populated areas before ejecting safely and the main reason for these crashes was improper management of the waste disposal system in Karachi.

He stated that without the support and sincere efforts of the public, it would be very difficult to curb the bird menace and its associated hazards. 

He also requested the public to stop throwing the waste indiscriminately and extend full support to PAF officials in fighting the menace of birds in the vicinity of the runways.

He informed the media that PAF lost 11 aircraft in 2006, a majority of which were Mirage fighter aircraft. He called on the City District Government Karachi to play its due role and the public to help and support the PAF by dumping garbage at the dumping centres, instead of dirtying airfirleds near the airports. 

Furthermore, Qamar informed authorities about the dead bodies of animals that are found. The birds come to prey on these dead animals, he said. A documentary on âbird strikeâ was also shown to the media. 

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=55214


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## BATMAN

> He also requested the public to stop throwing the waste indiscriminately and extend full support to PAF officials


This is inexcusable. I understand most of the accidents took place in Karachi.
I think PAF is equally guilty for being failure to teckle a problem existing from years.
Instead of requesting the people they should put signs, forbiding people to throw waste and get it declared illegal (due to the risk of epidemic spread, it should be illegal any way, to throw waste away from dedicated area). More over covered trash cans and dedicated trash bags should be sold or provided to residents and daily pick should be arranged, trash collecters can also be used to petrol the area.
As a permanent solution an new base should be built away from population and all plans must be followed agressively.
Again, this is a solution comming out of blunt common sense but why PAF and local city managment failed to stop and educate the area residents for throwing waste.
Some thing is wrong some where.


----------



## Introvert

*PAF jet crashes near Peshawar*

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) FT-6 jet has been crashed near Peshawar on Friday, however both the pilots ejected safely.

PAF spokesman has confirmed the crash, which was happened seven kilometers away from Peshawar.

The crash was apparently happened due to technical fault. Both the pilots were managed to eject form the plane. The jet was on a routine training flight, he added.

Air Headquarters has ordered a detail enquiry of the incident. 
http://www.geo.tv/geonews/details.asp?id=7249&param=1


----------



## imiakhtar

Neo said:


> *PAF lost 11 aircraft to bird sktrikes in 2006 *



At many of the major UK airports they employ birds of prey such as falcons to "deal" with bird problems. could the PAF not employ similar tactics at its airfields. falconry is quite a big hobby in pakistan is it not?


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## Neo

This widely used method can only be applied near an airbase to protect jets during take off or final approach but at greater altitude and higher speed you're on your own.

Pakistan provides a migratory corridor for birds travelling from Siberia to Africa and Aurstralia and vice versa. A traversing colony exists of tens of thousands of birds!


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## Muradk

Neo said:


> This widely used method can only be applied near an airbase to protect jets during take off or final approach but at greater altitude and higher speed you're on your own.
> 
> Pakistan provides a migratory corridor for birds travelling from Siberia to Africa and Aurstralia and vice versa. A traversing colony exists of tens of thousands of birds!



We dont have problems at the base. Its out side the base. and yes Neo you are right in Dekha I have seen from my own eyes the radar screen turning bright because of Migrating Birds


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## Interceptor

Why dont they use high powered ultrasound modules to scare the birds to death, they wont ever come near the airbase. However, the problem is then the personell will eventually get def, as you cant hear the noise but its atmospheric nod is very powerful.


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## Neo

You'll be altering the nature and disturbing migration of birds which again is necessary for ecological balance. I'm sure WNF and Greenpeace will reject any such develoment in any country.

Again the phenomena is not concentrated near air bases but throughout the country.


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## Interceptor

Neo said:


> You'll be altering the nature and disturbing migration of birds which again is necessary for ecological balance. I'm sure WNF and Greenpeace will reject any such develoment in any country.
> 
> Again the phenomena is not concentrated near air bases but throughout the country.



Neo the Ultrasound can travel well Kilometeres if necessary its just that its very dangerous if not used with caution. Then again birds will go crazy, its like if you use a ultrasound on cats I think the frequency is about 23 or 25Khz the cats will run out of the city or run several miles away.


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## Neo

Migratory birds travel in large numbers and organised pattern, imagine what will happen if they go crazy and get disoriented. You won't be able to track their movements since it will become inpredictable.

No plane, either civil or military will be safe from possible bird strike. Pakistan's main air traffic corridor the V404 will become a deadly zone since it runs right thru the centre of the country.


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## fatman17

AFM has a monthly aircraft attrition news for airforces of the world. PAF attrition rate when compared with other AFs is not so bad.
F-7 needs to be phased out. it is the chinese engine which is the major cause for crashes.


----------



## Bull

fatman17 said:


> AFM has a monthly aircraft attrition news for airforces of the world. PAF attrition rate when compared with other AFs is not so bad.
> F-7 needs to be phased out. *it is the chinese engine which is the major cause for crashes*.



Is this true?


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## hoodhood1

I have seen some F7 up close. They are in quite a good condition, some of the Avionics are to PAF standards (modern). Maybe the engines are not to the mark, as they are made in China. As long if they KILL one or TWO enemy Airrcrafts they are good.


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## hoodhood1

The ejection seats on F7's are rated Zero Zero, the pilots are sure to survive from an air disaster. 
It is the pilot who stays with the plane till the very end just to save another mankind, and, losses his life. My hats off for this valour.


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## Keysersoze

fatman17 said:


> AFM has a monthly aircraft attrition news for airforces of the world. PAF attrition rate when compared with other AFs is not so bad.
> F-7 needs to be phased out. it is the chinese engine which is the major cause for crashes.



I would suggest attrition for the F-7's is for the planes purchased in the late 80's rather than the newer models that were purchased much later. You don't phase out a capable plane because you have shiny new toys. the newer airframes can fulfill a useful function (until it s time to retire them)with upgrades to allow them to use SD-10 etc etc


----------



## Introvert

*Pakistani air force jet crashes, no casualties*

QUETTA, Pakistan: A Pakistan air force plane crashed Wednesday during a training flight, but no one was hurt, a military spokesman said.

The pilot of the Chinese-made F-7 fighter ejected safely shortly after takeoff from a base near the southwestern city of Quetta, said Maj. Mohammed Bukhari, an air force spokesman.

Pakistan has lost a string of military planes in crashes, including at least five this year.

The previous incident was on March 13 when an F-7 went down also near Quetta because of an unexplained technical malfunction.

Pakistani air force jet crashes, no casualties - International Herald Tribune


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## EagleEyes

*Pakistan Air Force Loses Pilot and Plane*
Tariq Iqbal | Sep 5, 2007, 10:47 

A Pakistan Air Force fighter jet F-7 was crashed today (Wednesday) in the Southwestern Balochistan province.

The F-7 fighter plane was on a routine training mission when it came down near Quetta, the provincial capital of Balochistan, a PAF statement said.

The fighter pilot flying the plane was Squadron Leader Ammar Butt who lost his life, PAF statement said.

No loss of life or property has been reported on ground, it said.

A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident, the statement said. 

Earlier local TV channels and other news media reported that the pilot was ejected safely. 

Some of the F-7, Mirage, and A-5 aircrafts are finishing their life, and will be replaced by the new F-16 and the JF-17 aircrafts. 

http://www.defence.pk/news/publish/Pakistan_Air_Force_Loses_Pilot_and_Plane_20070905.php


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## EagleEyes

Baazi, sadly pilot did die.


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## Introvert

u r right, Webby. According to GEO the pilot was martyred.

May Allah grant him a place in Jannat.


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## IceCold

It is sad! we have lost an asset of PAF and pakistan. I think that F-7s and mirages as they have completed there life span and are prone to accidents should now be grounded as continue flying them would make them flying coffins for the PAF pilots.


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## EagleEyes

Apparently some reports suggest that he was doing training for the 6th September air show while doing the low level aerobatic on a runway he lost the plane.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Courage is the price that Life exacts for granting peace.
The soul that knows it not Knows no release from little things:
Knows not the livid loneliness of fear,
Nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear
The sound of wings.
How can life grant us boon of living, compensate
For dull gray ugliness and pregnant hate
Unless we dare The soul's dominion?
Each time we make a choice, we pay
With courage to behold the restless day,
And count it fair.

&#8212; Amelia Earhart

May his soul rest in peace.


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## x_man

Squadron Leader Ammar Butt was Flight Commander 17 squadron (F-7PG) at samungli, Quetta. He was preparing for 6 sept in lo level area when he had to eject due to unknown reasons. After ejection, seat-man separation could not take place and he received fatal injuries due to impact with ground. Great loss to airforce and his family. God bless his soul.


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## Neo

Its sad, God bless his soul!


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## karpov

Indeed a grat loss and a sad day, especially considering its the defense day! May Almighty showers His Blessings on departing soul and give enough courage to the family of deceased!
Please can anyone tell me is there going to be any airshow in Isb/Rwp area tomorrow? If yes where ? timing ? and how can we get in?


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## EagleEyes

http://www.defence.pk/news/publish/6th_September_Defence_Day_of_Pakistan_20070905.php

Check the link: PAF Masroor. I think Defence Day is over in Pakistan.


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## solid snake

Rip Sq. Ldr. Ammar


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## fatman17

PAF has lost 8 F-16s over its operational cycle of 32 years. 4 accidents are confirmed and we dont have much info on the other 4 accidents(?). some sources claim these a/c were not accidents but were cannabalised by PAF for spares during the embargo/sanctions period.
kindly shed some light on this subject.
PAKISTAN AIRFORCE WRITE/OFFS
TOTAL = 8
CONFIRMED = 4 (3 ACCIDENTS AND 1 SHOT-DOWN BY OWN A/C)
UN-CONFIRMED OR NO INFO = 4
DOES ANYONE HAVE FURTHER INFO ON THESE 4 W/O&#8217;S

Found 8 F-16s, displaying 1-8 [Sorted by Date] 
Date	Status	Local S/N	FY/n	AF/Unit	Version	Info	Details
18 Dec 1986	[w/o]	85609	81-1504 38 TW 
F-16B Block 15U Details 

The aircraft took off from Sargodha AB and hit a wild boar causing the two pilots to eject.

02 May 1987	[w/o]	85720	81-0918 14 sqn 
F-16A Block 15S Details 

Shot down by Squadron Leader Amjad Javed and Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan ejected safely.

04 Sep 1989	[w/o]	84712	81-0910 38 TW 
F-16A Block 15Q Details 

If anyone has more info on this crash, please let us know.

16 Jun 1991	[w/o]	85723	81-0921 38 TW 
F-16A Block 15T Details 

On a night training mission with one other F-16. Returning to Kamra AB to land suffered an engine failure forcing Squadron Leader Syed Hassan Raza to eject.

28 Oct 1991	[w/o]	85725	81-0923 14 sqn 
F-16A Block 15U Details 

Crashed in Attock, Pakistan after it suffered an engine failure during a dogfight training mission with the pilot, Squadron Leader Nadeem Anjum, ejected safely. 

10 Nov 1993	[w/o]	84607	81-0937 38 TW 
F-16B Block 15N Details 

If anyone has more info on this crash, please let us know.

17 Mar 1994	[w/o]	85721 81-0919 14 sqn 
F-16A Block 15S Details 

Crashed near Sargodha, Pakistan.

22 Oct 1994	[w/o]	82701	81-0899 11 sqn 
F-16A Block 15E Details 

Crashed near Sargodha, Pakistan


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## x_man

Hi

You have given details , I will give the numbers. Total 8 F-16 lost since induction.

1. F-16B---Wild Boar Hit , both pilots ejected
2. F-16 A---Crashed after hit by own missile.,pilot ejected
3. F-16A---Engine Flame out , pilot ejected
4. F-16A---Engine Flame out , pilot ejected
5. F-16A---Spatial Disoreintation, pilot embraced shahadat.
6. F-16A---G-Loc, pilot embraced shahadat.
7. F-16B---Bird Hit, pilots ejected
8. F-16A---Flame out , pilot ejected. *It happened in 1994 , since then ,PAF did not have a major accident on F-16 (mashallah)*


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## fatman17

x_man - thx for establishing the fact that PAF has lost 8 a/c. do u have names of the unfortunate pilots


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## x_man

* First was Sqn Ldr Zafar from 9 sqn and crashed in sept,1989. During a night interception mission he got disorientated, went into a steep dive and never made any attempt to recover. Before impacting, he gave repeated calls about his disorientation. 

* Second pilot to receive fatal injuries was Sqn Ldr Nasir in Apr, 1994 from CCS. While flying a dissimilar aircomabat mission, during merge he experienced G induces loss of conciousness ( G-Loc) and hit the ground . 

These are the only two fatalities on F-16, rest everyone ejected safely.


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## EagleEyes

x_man, good info. What is G-Lock by the way?


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## Owais

WebMaster said:


> x_man, good info. What is G-Lock by the way?



g-induced Loss Of Consciousness (abbreviated g-LOC) is a condition where a person loses consciousness because g-forces primarily acting along the length of the body move the blood away from the brain to the extent that consciousness is lost.

These conditions are linked to astronauts, pilots of fighter planes and pilots of aerobatic aircraft.

Incidents of acceleration-induced loss of consciousness have caused fatal accidents in aircraft capable of sustaining high-g for considerable periods such as the BAe Hawk, F-16 Falcon and F/A-18 Hornet.


g-LOC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Muradk

x_man said:


> * First was Sqn Ldr Zafar from 9 sqn and crashed in sept,1989. During a night interception mission he got disorientated, went into a steep dive and never made any attempt to recover. Before impacting, he gave repeated calls about his disorientation.
> 
> * Second pilot to receive fatal injuries was Sqn Ldr Nasir in Apr, 1994 from CCS. While flying a dissimilar aircomabat mission, during merge he experienced G induces loss of conciousness ( G-Loc) and hit the ground .
> 
> These are the only two fatalities on F-16, rest everyone ejected safely.



Retd Air cdre Shabir ( Angle ) he son Rashid died in a Mirage over the sea Night Flying same problem Disorientation he died, My memory might be hazy it was 1995 or 96 but I can find out by calling angle.


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## Muradk

One of my older threads pasting .

LOC, pronounced 'Gee-Lock', is an abbreviated term meaning G-Induced Loss of Consciousness. Not many simulations have been able to model this phenomenon effectively. Most people refer to it as "blackout," including the simulation companies. Because of the incorrect use of terminology, many believe that when you pull high G's, the only symptom you get is the tunnel vision and eventual blackout / simulated loss of consciousness. There is nothing further from the truth. 
What does a pilot have to worry about during a high G maneuver?

First off, there is the amount of concentration involved in preparation of and then the actual "grunting" done while in the maneuver. No game has been able to model this. As you sit in your comfy chair, you have none of these factors to deal with. Already you are at an advantage. 
Second, there is shear physical pain involved in pulling high G&#8217;s. To me the pain during a high G maneuver is excruciating. Anyone that has ever experienced any type of pain knows that it is extremely difficult to think of anything else while in severe pain. Training can overcome some of this, but nowhere near all of it. Concentration is difficult to maintain while in pain. So again, as you sit in your comfy chair, sipping on a soda, you are at a serious advantage.
I have heard jokes from pilots about the new guys that come out of a training exercise with their necks twisted in pain. They tried to look around in a high G turn. Of course, there are ways to help overcome some of this, but the effort and gyrations you must go through makes it a difficult task. I also need to point out that there is a distinct difference between grey / blackout and G-LOC. The first time in F-86 I experienced a 5+ G pull out during the war I was lucky that day, I greyed felt like I was getting a headache and started to lose field of view (in that order) only a few seconds of pulling out at the bottom of a dive. This isn't G-LOC since I didn't actually go nighty-night but I lost control of the plane and went into a dive which actually helped save my *** that day.
To have a pilot state that they can "pull high G&#8217;s as long as they need to" is understating the importance of proper preparation and physical fitness. These comments completely discount and downplay the difficulty that fighter pilots must overcome every day. It just is not as easy as they were making it sound. If this were indeed the case, why would there be a need for G-suits or "speed jeans?" The other question is just exactly how long is "as long as I need to?" In a true life or death situation, the human body is capable of amazing feats, but rarely has anyone in a situation like this ever been hooked up to the proper equipment to get an accurate idea of just what really can be done. 
Some may argue that it is a well-known fact that the Blue Angels do not wear G-suits. A short analysis will show that the Blue Angels pull sustained G&#8217;s in a controlled, gradual onset (gradual may be quick, or slow, but a build up, as opposed to a sudden jerk to 9 G's) environment. They also do not make many high G maneuvers without periods of rest. Ever wonder what Angels 5 and 6 are doing while 1, 2, 3, and 4 are showing off? Or vice versa? The shows are designed to allow the pilots to perform high G maneuvers without risk to the pilots or audience. Do not take this as an insult to the Blue Angels or their abilities. On the contrary, I regard them as some of the finest pilots in the world, even more so for their understanding and recognition of their own physical limitations. Their reasons for not wearing G-suits are based on precision control, not on physical reasons. They brace their arms on their legs to help maintain precise movements of the stick. The pumping up and down of the G-suit would cause their arm to move which in turn would cause movement in the stick. The Thunderbirds, on the other hand, do not have to worry about this since their sticks are on the side (F/A-18 vs. F-16).

Next, folks will quote the myth that the Russians do not wear G suits either. These guys are also known to drink hydraulic fluid when they are out of vodka. Does that mean it is right? But seriously, Russians DO have G-suits. Pretty darn good ones, too. While it is my understanding these are optional at the pilot&#8217;s discretion, most do wear them.

The G-LOC fatigue factor is such an important and integral part of combat flying that development of the Combined Advanced Technology Enhanced Design G-Ensemble (COMBAT EDGE) is in progress. While a normal G-suit provides passive protection to about 5.5+ G&#8217;s, anything beyond that requires active participation from the pilot. Even up to 5.5+ G's, pilots are using their "grunting," CTFB ("crap the football"), or L1/M1 (anti-G straining) maneuver. The COMBAT EDGE will enhance the pilot&#8217;s ability to tolerate sustained G's as well as assist in proper breathing rhythms for maximum tolerance. 

There is also the "HOOK" maneuver that the Navy is researching. The word "HOOK" is used as a mnemonic aid to help the trainee accomplish the anti-G strain properly. Vocalizing "HOOK" causes voluntarily closing of the glottis (the vocal apparatus of the larynx, consisting of the true vocal cords and the opening between them), which is an important part of effective anti-G straining. U.S. Navy experience shows that this method is more effective than the "grunt" and L-1/M-1 techniques used before. If fighter pilots could already "pull high G&#8217;s as long as they need to," none of these improvements or this research would be necessary.
But on the serious side, pulling 9 G&#8217;s in a simulator with no need to control an aircraft or deal with combat issues is entirely different than pulling 9 G&#8217;s while trying to maintain control of an aircraft. 
In addition, most modern centrifuge seating is adjustable. It has been proven in a centrifuge that an 80 degree recline can allow sustained G tolerance of up to 15 G&#8217;s. It would be a bit difficult to actually see out of an aircraft at this angle. The F-16's 30 degree recline or SU-25M's 35 degree recline is about as far as is practical at this point. These angles allow an increase in G tolerance of about 1 additional G.
I have never lost a dogfight to human or AI due to blackout limitations, but from my own mistakes. The fatigue factor comes in the more high G maneuvers you make in a row, the sooner G-LOC will set in. If you take a rest between maneuvers, body recovers its self .


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## x_man

Dear Sir Murad K

The night crash that you mentioned above was actually happened in early 2002 , pilot was Wg Cdr Mazhar Warsi ( 7 sqn Masroor , 85th GDP). While converting towards an F-16, his aircraft went into sea. Todate , the wreckage or his body have not been found. Cause of Accident : *Spacial Disorientation*.

We also lost a Mirage DP in 1996, weather was cloudy with lo level stratus ( typical masroor weather), just after takeoff, ATC received the call about disorientation from pilot and aircraft crashed after few minutes. Both pilots received fatal injuries. Front occupant was Flt Lt Haroon, rear accupant was Sqn Ldr Parvez if i remember correctly). Cause of accident : *Spatial disorientation*.

Air Cdr Shabbir Angle's son Flt Lt Rashid crashed during day during his chase mission. After take off his Mirage caught fire, despite confirmation of fire and repeated calls from his leader and ATC to eject, he continued to head for runway to land. On finals ( masroor runway 09), his aircraft went out of control, Rashid did not have time to eject and he recieved fatal injuries.


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## Muradk

I was in RNDC when Angles Son Died sorry to here it again, well we should never forget our sons and heros who have died for our country. 
They are the real heros.
Mod lets start a thread for these kids who died I will get there intial info like a bio data plus a photo from AHQ and some photos from there course mates. but on this thread only a few can write only for viewing. 


MK


----------



## HAIDER

IAF crash report (little old but interesting)


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## Neo

*PAF fighter jet crashes​*
ISLAMABAD: A Pakistan Air Force fighter jet crashed on Saturday near Samundri, Faisalabad, but no casualties were reported, a PAF statement said.

The Chinese-built F-7 came down during an operational training mission, the statement said, adding that the pilot of the aircraft ejected safely. nni

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Glad the pilot is safe.


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## kidwaibhai

i think we really need to replace our aging fleet of F7's they are really posing a threat to our pilots.


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## fatman17

kidwaibhai said:


> i think we really need to replace our aging fleet of F7's they are really posing a threat to our pilots.




all the F-7 variants cannot be replaced at once. the JF-17 will replace the F-7s over the next 3-5 years.


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## fatman17

Jane's Defence Weekly - December 26, 2007

Pakistan F-7 crashes on training exercise

Gareth Jennings Jane's Aviation Reporter - London

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-7 combat aircraft crashed during a training exercise in the eastern Punjab region of the country on 15 December. 

According to local media reports, the pilot of the Chinese-built aircraft ejected safely and there were no reports of injuries on the ground. 

The cause of the crash is not yet known, although initial indications are that it was probably the result of an unspecified technical malfunction. The PAF has established a board of inquiry to investigate. 

*The PAF has operated the F-7 since 1998 and currently has approximately 165 of the type in service*.


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## solid snake

All I can say is that the JF-17 is arriving at just the right time. If it had been delayed like the Tejas, God knows what we would have done.


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## Introvert

Allah ka shukar hai ke pilot safe hai.


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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force fighter jet crashes, pilot killed 

ISLAMABAD, Feb. 15 (Xinhua) -- A pilot was killed as a French-made Mirage fighter jet of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed in the eastern Punjab province on Friday, a PAF statement said. 

"Pakistan Air Force announces with great sorrow and grief that a Mirage fighter aircraft, while on a routine operational training mission, crashed 30 Kilometers South East of Sargodha," said the statement. 

The crash apparently occurred due to technical malfunction, the statement said, adding that the pilot of the aircraft Wing Commander Azhar Ismael was killed in the accident. 

No loss of life or property has been reported on ground. 

A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident. 

Pakistan's arsenal of Mirages is the second biggest after France, which is not only maintaining a big fleet of Mirages but is also overhauling the planes of the PAF.


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## alibaz

its a sed news. the pilot was a senior officer


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## EagleEyes

I have no comments for this crash, except that PAF needs to step up and acquire better planes. These crashes are leading to the deaths of many great pilots in the PAF.


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## Trooper

Islamabad: A Pakistan air force jet crashed Friday in eastern Punjab province, killing the pilot, a military spokesman said.

The French-made Mirage aircraft went down near the town of Sargodha, where the air force has a base, after experiencing technical problems, said Cmdr. Sarfaraz Ahmed Khan.

Authorities have ordered an inquiry into the crash, he said.

A number of Pakistan air force planes have crashed in recent years, some of them deadly and blamed on technical problems.

Last month, a Cessna T-37 plane belonging to the air force crashed in northwestern Pakistan, killing its pilot.


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## Neo

Another loss of human life? 
R.I.P.
We really need to replace the Mirage and F-7's.


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## x_man

Another ex-Aussie Mirage breaks in the air. &#8230;takes another life with it and still many more on the line. .

Wg Cdr Azhar&#8230;a very fine soul&#8230;a devoted soldier , a loving father and husband and a great friend to be proud of&#8230;.a very experienced Mirage pilot and had handled many critical emergencies in the past&#8230;but alas, today he ran out of luck&#8230;

May God bless his soul and takes care of all who are flying Mirages.


----------



## BATMAN

x_man said:


> Another ex-Aussie Mirage breaks in the air. &#8230;takes another life with it and still many more on the line. .


What do you think is it because of service life or poor maintenance of aussies or else.



> Wg Cdr Azhar&#8230;a very fine soul&#8230;a devoted soldier , a loving father and husband and a great friend to be proud of&#8230;.a very experienced Mirage pilot and had handled many critical emergencies in the past&#8230;but alas, today he ran out of luck&#8230;



Very sad indeed. May Allah give calm to his family.



> May God bless his soul and takes care of all who are flying Mirages.



AAmin


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## x_man

Ex Aussie Mirages had already lived their life when we bought them&#8230;.Aussies maintained and flew them well&#8230;so really cant blame them for anything.

I don&#8217;t want to disclose here that how many have crashed and how many were about to crash but were saved due to skillfull handling of our pilots. No doubt that PAF is giving these 40 year old planes the best maintenance support it can afford , but these aircraft are too old now to fly now and have lived their airframe/engine life. May be its time to get rid of them or else we will keep loosing precious lives.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi raajioon. May Allah forgive him for his sins and enter him into jannah, ameen.


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## Awesome

Pilot killed as Pakistan Air Force fighter plane crashes - Irna



> A pilot was killed as French-made Mirage fighter plane of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed near the city of Sargodha in eastern Punjab province on Friday, the PAF said.
> 
> "Pakistan Air Force announces with great sorrow and grief that a Mirage fighter aircraft, while on a routine operational training mission, crashed 30 Kilometers South East of Sargodha," a PAF statement said.
> 
> The pilot of the aircraft Wing Commander Azhar Ismael was killed, it said.
> 
> The crash apparently occurred due to technical malfunction, according to the statement.
> 
> No loss of life or property has been reported on ground, it said.
> 
> A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident.
> 
> Pakistan's arsenal of Mirages is the second biggest after France, which is not only maintaining a big fleet of Mirages but is also overhauling the planes of the PAF and air forces of several friendly countries including the United Arab Emirates (UAE).
> 
> Besides Mirages, PAF's fleet currently comprises US-origin F-16s and Chinese-made F-7s, F-7PGs and A-5s.
> 
> Pakistan has also begun serial production of the JF-17 (Thunder) aircraft, which it is manufactured jointly with China.


----------



## fatman17

x_man said:


> Ex Aussie Mirages had already lived their life when we bought them.Aussies maintained and flew them wellso really cant blame them for anything.
> 
> I dont want to disclose here that how many have crashed and how many were about to crash but were saved due to skillfull handling of our pilots. No doubt that PAF is giving these 40 year old planes the best maintenance support it can afford , but these aircraft are too old now to fly now and have lived their airframe/engine life. May be its time to get rid of them or else we will keep loosing precious lives.



it has nothing to do with the aussies. we brought these 40 mirages for the sole purpose of stripping them for spares but along the way the PAF decided to upgrade them and put them in service.
its just another un-fortunate accident.


----------



## solid snake

Hopefully we can keep the accident rate to a minimum until we can induct JF-17s to replace these planes.


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## fatman17

PAF Mirage aircraft crashes in central Punjab region
Gareth Jennings Jane's Aviation Reporter
London

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Dassault Mirage combat aircraft crashed in the central Punjab region of the country on 15 February.

The aircraft came down approximately 200 km south of the capital, Islamabad, not far from the PAF academy and air base at Sargodha. 

According to local media reports, the pilot was killed in the accident and the air force is investigating the cause of the crash. 

*The PAF is the largest user of the Mirage after France, with several variants of the aircraft in service. It is not known which variant was involved in this incident, but the PAF currently operates approximately 37 Mirage IIIO, 30 Mirage 5F, 22 Mirage 5PA, 10 Mirage 5PA3, 10 Mirage IIIRP, nine Mirage IIIEL and two Mirage IIIEP aircraft. *
*total 120 a/c in service.*

The earliest model of Mirage aircraft has been in PAF service since 1967.


----------



## fatman17

_this crash has happened despite the following available..._

*Pakistan signs for aircraft monitoring deal *

Damian Kemp JDW Aviation Editor - London 

Australian companies Structural Monitoring Systems (SMS) and Aerostructures have won a A$830,000 (US$632,000) contract from the Pakistan Air Force to design an airframe monitoring system for the force's Chengdu FT-5 jet trainer, *Dassault Aviation Mirage III fighter *and Lockheed Martin C-130 transport aircraft. 

The system will be based on SMS's comparative vacuum monitoring (CVM) technology. CVM involves the placing of thin sensor pads with ultrafine vacuum galleries over flat surfaces, joints or fatigue hotspots on aircraft, including inside wing spars or fuel tanks, for occasional or continual monitoring. 

SMS Chief Executive Officer Mark Vellacott said the pads are capable of detecting cracks 20,000ths of an inch wide. 

The key to the technology is its ability to substantially reduce aircraft downtime, in the case of CH-53 Sea Stallion medium lift helicopters a reduction from four hours to five minutes for the structural test required every 25 flight hours, according to the company. 

Included in the Pakistan Air Force contract is a proposal to equip the country's Defence Aeronautical Research Centre (DARC) with laboratory testing systems. Vellacott said the contract was only stage one and would lead to recommendations for CVM technology to be installed on aircraft and for the company to assist DARC to develop its structural testing capability as part of a larger stage two programme planned for late 2005. 

"This contract is to provide a full range of structural integrity analysis, monitoring and testing services for the fleet and is another milestone in the commercialisation of CVM technology," said Vellacott. 

"This is a major step forward for the company." 

The company began an evaluation in March of CVM technology on three Australian Army Black Hawks under an A$125,000 contract that could eventually extend across the whole fleet.


----------



## Blackpearl

fatman17 said:


> Australian companies Structural Monitoring Systems (SMS) and Aerostructures have won a A$830,000 (US$632,000) contract from the Pakistan Air Force to design an airframe monitoring system for the force's Chengdu FT-5 jet trainer, *Dassault Aviation Mirage III fighter *and Lockheed Martin C-130 transport aircraft.



I donot understand that why PAF is investing this money over the structure monitoring of aircraft. As this whole thread indicates, three main causes of aircraft crashes emerge as follows:
1. Engine failure (which leads to failure of Generators, Hydraulic system for flight controls etc).

2. Pilot Factor (G-LOC,SD, other error)

3. External Factors(bird hit, boar hit)

I dont think, that structure failure or structure disintegration has been the major cause of crashes. It is understood, that aircraft airframe has stipulated life in terms of flying hours and calender life (interms of years), after which major SEI (Structure Evaluation Inspection) is carried. However, over the time, fatigue accumulation is more important in helicopters then airplanes. Helicopters are subjected to various types of vibrations (low, medium and high frequency), as a lot of components are rotating. So If this system is used as a Diagnostic measure for Blackhawks, its OK. THe investmenst is worth it. 

But i dont think, that fatigue monitoring of airplane structure is important. The engine is the single most important component of the aircraft. PAF should try to improve/develop systems to monitor more closely various engine parameters, or employ FADEC engines in aircraft.

In Helicopters, if engine fails, it can still land by a skilled pilot. but, in fighter aircraft, if engine fails, and donot relite, fighters cannot glide due to inherent instability.


----------



## Muradk

Like on of our members said" As long there are planes flying in Air there will be Crashes" God Bless His Soul.





Gp Capt Ejaz is the Investigating officer I will stay in-touch with him and let you guys know the out come.


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi Blackwater,

The structural integrity of a plane is one of the most important factor in keeping the plane safe and air worthy. Case in point the F 15 eagle.

My personal observation is that no air force will admit a structural failure of its air craft unless neccessary---other factors and other reasons would be given for the crash---structural failures means that the batch may have been compromised at time of inception eg F 15---or has crossed the threshold of safe flying---it is getting old (air force personal can correct me if I am wrong ).

The mirage---it has given 40 years of its life to PAF and the end is still not in sight. I believe that PAF is 5 to 7 years behind in the acquisition of replacement aircraft for the Mirage. I believe that PAF took a gamble in deciding which way to go---in the end it would barely make it through with just the skin between its teeth---if it ever would.


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## EagleEyes

MastanKhan,

If you want to blame anybody of the PAF's plans of inductions. Then blame America and Zardari.


----------



## MastanKhan

Webby,

It is not a blame. It is a frame of mind---that is what I am talking about---you see once the sanctions came off---PAF was not prepared to make the purchase right away---. Basically what I am saying is that the PAF was caught not ready---they were not prepared that one day sanctions would come off and they would need to sign on the dotted line. For that, they had to have a projection date set up----if sanctions came off at this time, then this is the aircraft we are going to buy 

Accordingly, they waited till the sanctions came off and then they started looking and they looked and they looked---30 year old fighter aircraft frames were being re-furbished and we made ourselves believe that we have a reliable platform---and we may very well be right about it, but then it is stretching it very thin---extremely thin. Fighter aircraft frames are unlike bomber aircraft frames---where bombers can be made to fly and be refurbished way beyond their normal life, the fighters aircraft maynot be.

The JF 17 may prove to be a wondeful all purpose, multidimensional aircraft in the coming years---but the deficiency we have today, haunts some of us now.


----------



## x_man

fatman17 said:


> its just another un-fortunate accident.



Very easily and comfortably said...ask Wg Cdr Azhars wife, kids and parents...do they also think same ???

Especially in Aviation world, accidents dont just happen.they have a long tail , a history and a chain of errors / omissions that lead to accident , and before an aircraft or its component finally breaks up in the air, it had already given one thousand indicators that its going to break.Sometimes,those indicators are either overlooked or purposely ignored because somebody thinks that nothing will happen or wants to project that all is well and when some accidents happen, they come up with lines, Just another un-fortunate accident or Allah ki yehi marzi thihow lame..

Accept it. We are not a safety conscious Nation. In 95% of the cases, we dont like to wear seat belts while driving, while constructing new building we dont have any fire exit plans, have you ever seen the webs of electric wiring even in few modern localities, we like to hang on the door or sit on the roof of the bus instead of waiting for the next one, we work with electric equipment without taking safety precautions etc etc..I can go on and on..Same people are in our armed forces with same frame of mind. Although, strict checks and inspection schedules are followed but still people do tend to lax unconsciously because by nature we dont care about safety. 

We have a reactive approach to safety instead of preventive. We only act when something has happened and do nothing to prevent it beforehand. In mid 80s, Base authorities at Sargodha were screaming that animal incursions on runways/taxi tracks is on rise and nobody gave a F**K about that until we lost an F-16B that was hit by a wild boar and then the emergency measures were taken to stop animal incursions and since then we did not have any accident due to this reason. Do you know that how many A-5 pilots lost their lives when it was finally decided to install Martin Baker. Or how many pilots were killed, when finally someone decided to phase out F-86s. And do you know that in last 10 Mirage crashes, 05 were ex-Aussies and to put the record straight, do you know that the last three Mirage crashes were from the same base and from the same squadron? In last six months, *Wing Commander Faisal Mumtaz *ejected after engine failure and is still unfit due to injuries after ejection, *Wg Cdr Akram Ranjha died *after engine fire and now *Wing Commander Azhar is dead *because the engine seized to work.three very senior and experienced officers gone within few months.all in Mirage.all due to Engine problemsand do you still think that its just another unfortunate accident...

I have no clue that how many more pilots we have to loose before somebody realises that something is wrong somewhere. We need to be *preventive than reactive* and hope that sanity prevails,otherwise its not far that very soon we will have another Mirage making a hole in ground with pilot still strapped to seat.


----------



## Blackpearl

x_man said:


> Same people are in our armed forces with same frame of mind. Although, strict checks and inspection schedules are followed but still people do tend to lax unconsciously because by nature we dont care about safety.



Sir, does this means, that our aircrfat maintenance personnel are inefficient, and careless, and show slack attitude over the aircarft. This means that, either they are not trained properly, as flight safety culture is not injected /emphasized. Or the supervisors and administrators are relaxed, careless, which donot ensure quality work and flight safety over the aircrew. 



x_man said:


> We have a reactive approach to safety instead of preventive. We only act when something has happened and do nothing to prevent it beforehand.



Highly deplorable and unprofessional!!




x_man said:


> And do you know that in last 10 Mirage crashes, 05 were ex-Aussies and to put the record straight, do you know that the last three Mirage crashes were from the same base and from the same squadron?



I am sure that senior engineering officer of the squadron must be having a tough time from Accident Investigation Board.



x_man said:


> three very senior and experienced officers gone within few months.all in Mirage.all due to Engine problems ?



Again it supports my earlier post. If PAF want to do something, try install diagnostic/monitoring equipment over engines first, then structure, as structure itself is more reliable then engine. By the way, are these engines overhauled by Mirage Rebuild Factory (Ataar 09 Engine shop)??

If 3 Mirages are crashed from the same squadron/base, I think concerned authorities must immediately look into the possibility of placing a quarintine over the maintenance wing of the base, as there may be a serious problem with maintenance practices.


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## x_man

Blackwater said:


> Sir, does this means, that our aircrfat maintenance personnel are inefficient, and careless, and show slack attitude over the aircarft. This means that, either they are not trained properly, as flight safety culture is not injected /emphasized. Or the supervisors and administrators are relaxed, careless, which donot ensure quality work and flight safety over the aircrew.



They are neither careless, nor inefficient, nor under trained. I am just talking about our general attitude as a nation towards safety. There is a lot of supervision and procedures made to ensure safety, but still unintentional or unconciously ,safety is overlooked. 

They are very professional people and we cant pinpoint them for anything that goes wrong. When we say human error, it can be due to pilots lack of judgement, an Air Traffic Controllers wrong clearence at wrong moment, a maintenace crews fault in refulling an aircraft or simpli a truck driver entering the runway when an aircraft is on finals...there can be million type of human errors.


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## MastanKhan

X_MAN,

I believe that you were right in your earlier assessment---safety is a frame of mind. You have to be right a 100 percent of the time everytime. There is no time and place for error. One is an accident, two is carelessness, three is totally inefficient---we are missing on the basics---there is an inherent problem somewhere that is not being found---three strikes and you are out.

I don't know what the PAF policy is but usaf would have grounded all the planes of the same make if the second crash was due to same problem except in case of accident related to airframe---that would have grounded all the birds right after the first crash---now if the the structure deficiency was found during routine check up---similiarly the planes would not be flying regardless of accident or no accident till the issue was resolved.

Three wing commanders lost in six months looks bad on any resume. What could have happened that two of them could not bail out---wing commanders are the senior most flyers of any air force---.


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## BATMAN

x_man said:


> Ex Aussie Mirages had already lived their life *when we bought them&#8230;.Aussies maintained and flew them well*&#8230;so really cant blame them for anything.
> 
> I don&#8217;t want to disclose here that how many have crashed and how many were about to crash but were saved due to skillfull handling of our pilots. No doubt that PAF is giving these 40 year old planes the best maintenance support it can afford , but *these aircraft are too old now to fly now and have lived their airframe/engine life*. May be its time to get rid of them or else we will keep loosing precious lives.



What a tragic backward journey. we were the second (non-US) Airforce to induct F-16 but instead of progressing further we found our selves demoted to F-6 and secondhand mirrages.
I beleive all this is due to the incompetency of our politicians who lead us to economic destruction.
I'm sure if PAF had resources they would have inducted Rafale instead of used mirages and perhaps many precious souls may have still among us.


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## x_man

Few Pics of Late Wing Cdr Azhar..

History of PIA :: View topic - Pakistan Air Force Mirage Crashes Near Sargodha


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## MastanKhan

X_MAN

I don't understand why two out of three pilots could not bail out of their respective aircrafts----if that was the case then whatever went wrong was extremely drastic in nature and sudden in occurance. An engine flameout would give enough time for the pilot to bail out.


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## x_man

You are right...Wing Cdr is the senior most rank where a pilot is actively flying, after that its 95&#37; desk job. Why these two pilots (Akram and Azhar) did not eject in time....is a million dollar question. There could be numerous reasons.... what actually happened will be found by accident investigation board but I will just give you few situations where pilots did not survive particularly after an engine problem and it could be any one or more reasons in case of Akram and Azhar : 

**Being at low level, the onset of engine failure was so sudden that they did not get the time to eject

**They might be too engrossed in the cockpit to deal with the emergency that they lost situational awareness for the moment and hit the ground.

**They ejected, but a little too late and the seat-man separation did not take place and they came down with the seat.

**They ejected well in time, but the parachute did not open.

**In panic they took wrong actions that led to increase the severity of problem and could not get out of the problem and went down with the aircraft.

**Loss of flight controls due to fire at low level.

**Pilot pulled the ejection handle but the seat did not eject (seat failure).

**Toxic fumes or smoke from engine if enters cockpit thru air conditioning system can lead to incapacitation. 

A pilot never wants to abandon his aircraft unless an extreme situation demands so. So many pilots have gone down with the crippled aircraft just because they thought that they might be able to land it back. Above are just few reasons for pilots not surviving after engine problem, there can be so many more. I am not making any conclusive judgements in case of last two crashes, but definitely it could be any one or more of the above reasons.


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## fatman17

is it true that PAF has decided to replace the MB-0-0 seats with a chinese version? due to cost reasons.


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## fatman17

jan 22 - Pakistan AF/Academy - T-37C:

crashed in the grounds of the GIK institute of engg, sciences & tech in the village of topi, swabi district, NWFP. 62m (100km) from islamabad, after a technical malfunction caused an in-flight fire.the pilot, P/O Jehanzeb was killed.


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## solid snake

Is there an ejection seat in the T-37?


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## ejaz007

*PAF mirage falls near Rajanpur *
Updated at: 1355 PST, Tuesday, March 18, 2008 

RAJANPUR: A fighter jet of Pakistan Air Force fell 22 kilometers from Rajanpur on Tuesday morning.

The Pilot of the ill fated escaped unhurt.

The spokesman of PAF said that the accident apparently occurred due to some technical glitch; however, Air Headquarters have given orders to a board for the investigation into the incident.

PAF jet fighter plane Mirage was on routine training flight when the accident happened. 

PAF mirage falls near Rajanpur


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## baqai

x_man said:


> You are right...Wing Cdr is the senior most rank where a pilot is actively flying, after that its 95% desk job. Why these two pilots (Akram and Azhar) did not eject in time....is a million dollar question. There could be numerous reasons.... what actually happened will be found by accident investigation board but I will just give you few situations where pilots did not survive particularly after an engine problem and it could be any one or more reasons in case of Akram and Azhar :
> 
> **Being at low level, the onset of engine failure was so sudden that they did not get the time to eject
> 
> **They might be too engrossed in the cockpit to deal with the emergency that they lost situational awareness for the moment and hit the ground.
> 
> **They ejected, but a little too late and the seat-man separation did not take place and they came down with the seat.
> 
> **They ejected well in time, but the parachute did not open.
> 
> **In panic they took wrong actions that led to increase the severity of problem and could not get out of the problem and went down with the aircraft.
> 
> **Loss of flight controls due to fire at low level.
> 
> **Pilot pulled the ejection handle but the seat did not eject (seat failure).
> 
> **Toxic fumes or smoke from engine if enters cockpit thru air conditioning system can lead to incapacitation.
> 
> A pilot never wants to abandon his aircraft unless an extreme situation demands so. So many pilots have gone down with the crippled aircraft just because they thought that they might be able to land it back. Above are just few reasons for pilots not surviving after engine problem, there can be so many more. I am not making any conclusive judgements in case of last two crashes, but definitely it could be any one or more of the above reasons.



i would like to add one more possibility to your list,

maybe they were trying to divert the aircraft to a less populated area and it was too late for them to eject


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## fatman17

Feb-6-08: Pakistan Army: Bell 412EP
took off from wana on a routine recce mission and suffered a technical malfunction shortly afterwads. crashed at 1440hrs near the village of Tanai in S/Waziristan, NWFP. both crew and six passengers were killed including several high ranking personnel.

Feb-08-08: PAF: Un-identified UAV
crashed in a open area on the outskirts of Peshtakara, peshawar. no injuries were reported on the ground. speculation that it was a US Predator UAV were unfounded.

Feb-15-08: PAF / Combat Commanders School: Mirage 111EA
crashed at about 1800hrs following a technical fault during a routine training mission near shaheenabad, eastern punjab. about 30 kms southeast of its base at sargodha/mushaf. The pilot MA Osmani, did not have time to eject and was killed in the crash.


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## air marshal

*PAF Fighter plane Crashes, Pilot ejects safely*
April 17, 2008

F-7 fighter aircraft crashed after 10 minutes flight, while on routine mission crashed however, the pilot remained safe said PAF Spokesman. The accident happened around 9:43PM and crash site is 15Km away from Faisalabad Airport while its pilot ejected safely. No damage of life on the ground has been reported.

Apparently the PAF F-7 jet fighter came down in a village farm. Fire brigade vehicles reached the crash site and have extinguished burning wreckage of the aircraft. Police, CAA and PAF officials also reached the spot to begin recovering wreckage. 

A board of inquiry has been ordered to probe the crash, which was apparently caused by a technical fault, he said.

Link: PAF Falcons - News Section


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## fatman17

air marshal said:


> *PAF Fighter plane Crashes, Pilot ejects safely*
> April 17, 2008
> 
> F-7 fighter aircraft crashed after 10 minutes flight, while on routine mission crashed however, the pilot remained safe said PAF Spokesman. The accident happened around 9:43PM and crash site is 15Km away from Faisalabad Airport while its pilot ejected safely. No damage of life on the ground has been reported.
> 
> Apparently the PAF F-7 jet fighter came down in a village farm. Fire brigade vehicles reached the crash site and have extinguished burning wreckage of the aircraft. Police, CAA and PAF officials also reached the spot to begin recovering wreckage.
> 
> A board of inquiry has been ordered to probe the crash, which was apparently caused by a technical fault, he said.
> 
> Link: PAF Falcons - News Section



i think these are the earlier model F-7 Airguards/Skybolts. thank God the pilot is safe.


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## MastanKhan

Fatman,

Welcome to the think tank. MK


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## fatman17

MastanKhan said:


> Fatman,
> 
> Welcome to the think tank. MK



MK
Thanks - its an Honor.


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## fatman17

PAF F-7 crashes during training exercise

Gareth Jennings JDW Jane's Aviation Reporter - London

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) CAC F-7 combat aircraft crashed during a routine training mission in the Punjab region of the country on 17 April. 

Local media has reported that the aircraft came down approximately 40 km west of the city of Faisalabad.

The pilot of the single-seat aircraft ejected safely. The cause of the accident is not yet known although preliminary reports suggest that a technical malfunction may be to blame. The PAF has launched an investigation. 

The PAF currently operates approximately 165 F-7 aircraft, which have been in service since 1988.

On 8 April the pilot of a Bangladesh Air Force CAC F-7 was killed when his aircraft crashed approximately 100 km north of the capital, Dhaka. On 15 December 2007 a PAF F-7 crashed during a training exercise in the Punjab, although on that occasion the pilot ejected safely.


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## solid snake

F-7s are crashing left right and center. Time to bring in the Thunder, quickly.


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## ejaz007

*PAF training jet crashes near Mardan *
Updated at: 1355 PST, Wednesday, June 11, 2008 

PESHAWAR: A training jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed near Mardan. 

PAF training jet crashes near Mardan

The plane in question is thought to be a T-37.


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## araz

ejaz007 said:


> *PAF training jet crashes near Mardan *
> Updated at: 1355 PST, Wednesday, June 11, 2008
> 
> PESHAWAR: A training jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed near Mardan.
> 
> PAF training jet crashes near Mardan
> 
> The plane in question is thought to be a T-37.



Sorry to hear this. I hope the pilots ejected safely. Any further news ontheir being safe.
Araz


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## Owais

araz said:


> Sorry to hear this. I hope the pilots ejected safely. Any further news ontheir being safe.
> Araz



unfortunately, the pilot died!


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## ejaz007

*Pilot dies in PAF plane crash*

ISLAMABAD: A T-37 Pakistan Air Force (PAF) training jet crashed near Mardan on Wednesday, *killing pilot Samman Riaz*. According to a PAF statement the plane was on a routine training mission and the crash apparently occurred due to a technical malfunction. No loss of life or property was reported on the ground, it added. An inquiry board has been ordered by the Air Headquarters.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## shehbazi2001

The News of today is reporting that it was a Mashak and the it was the Lady Instructor pilot and her trainee. It says that both were killed.

Reports are conflicting.................

Woman instructor pilot, trainee die in PAF plane crash

MARDAN: A woman Instructor Pilot and trainee pilot were killed when their trainer Mushshak aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed in the Pir Garhi village, near Mardan, here on Wednesday. Eyewitnesses said the aircraft caught fire during a routine flight and nose-dived in the fields of Pir Garhi. The wreckage of the aircraft was found scattered over a vast area.


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## EagleEyes

It was probably T-37. Samman Riaz was the lady pilot.


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## Blackpearl

No lady officer has died in a plane ceash.
The name of the pilot is Salman, not Samman as erronously reported in the newspapers. Only one trainee officer, the sole occupant of the aircraft is killed. I have confirmed it from one of my friend from Airforce.

It is highly unreasonable to believe that lady pilots (first batch passed out, only 2 years ago), are being employed as Instructor Pilot. 
To be an instructor, one must have flown around 500 hours, and FCU (fighter conversion unit) qualified from Miawali. The first 4 lady officers were unable to clear FCU. Recently we have seen in newspaper, 2 women officers qualified as FCU. Apart from 500 flying, pilot himself must undergo rigorous FIS (Flight Instructor School) course at Risalpur, before employed as IP (Instructor Pilot). Then there is certain ground service in a squadron (min 3 years) is also required. 

This all point out that no women pilot in PAF is able to be employed as IP as they do not meet any of the above mentioned criteria.

Lastly, we all pray for the departed sole of Plt/Off Salman Riaz.
May his soul rest in peace. Ameen


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## EagleEyes

Thanks for letting me know.


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## EagleEyes

*Pakistan Air Force trainer jet crashes near Faisalabad*
Saturday, 21 June 2008 06:30 Pakistan Daily

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter jet has crashed near Faisalabad on Saturday. According to reports, the incident happened in Digkot area near Faisalabad. The pilot of a plane has been ejected safely. PAF spokesman said that FT7 jet has been crashed due to technical fault. Both pilot and instructor have managed to eject safely from the plane. Rescue and police teams have reached the scene.

Pakistan Air Force trainer jet crashes near Faisalabad


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## fatman17

man these F-7s earlier versions are falling like nine-pins. thank God both the pilots are safe.


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## fatman17

Jane's Login

Pakistani GAIC FT-7 trainer aircraft crashes during training exercise

Gareth Jennings Jane's Aviation Reporter - London

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) GAIC FT-7 trainer aircraft crashed during a routine training mission in the Punjab region of the country on 21 June. 

Local media have reported that the two-seat aircraft came down approximately 25 km from the city of Faisalabad. According to the reports, the two crew ejected safely. 

The cause of the accident is not yet known, although preliminary reports suggest that a technical malfunction may be to blame. The PAF has launched an investigation. 

This is the third loss of a PAF CAC F-7 variant aircraft in recent months: on 17 April an F-7 came down during a training mission near Faisalabad just one week after the pilot of another F-7 was killed when his aircraft crashed approximately 100 km north of the capital, Islamabad. On 15 December 2007 a PAF F-7 crashed during a training exercise in the Punjab, although on that occasion the pilot ejected safely. 

*The PAF currently operates approximately 190 F-7 variant aircraft, which have been in service since 1988.*


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## shehbazi2001

The News and Geo are reporting another crash of T-37.

PAF jet crashes in Malakand

Updated at: 1220 PST, Thursday, July 10, 2008 

PESHAWAR: A T-37 jet of Pakistan Air Force(PAF) has been crashed during a training flight in Sakhakot area of Malakand on Thursday. The pilot is managed to eject from the plane, sources said.

I think T-37s should not have any problem of spares etc in this time of US Cooperation but the recent crashes point to some problem, perhaps the age too. Also the new engines will be difficult to purchase I think.

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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force's trainer jet crashes in NWFP 

Islamabad (PTI): A trainer jet of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed on Thursday in the restive North West Frontier Province apparently due to a technical snag, though both its pilots ejected safely. 

The T-37 aircraft crashed 55 kms north of Risalpur, where the PAF Academy is located, while it was on a routine training mission. 

A statement issued by the PAF said the crash apparently occurred due to a technical malfunction. Both the pilots ejected safely, it said. 

There were no reports of loss of civilian life or property on the ground. A board of inquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters to determine the exact cause of the accident. 

The Hindu : Front Page News : Saturday, July 12, 2008


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## x_man

fatman17 said:


> man these F-7s earlier versions are falling like nine-pins. thank God both the pilots are safe.




Unfortunately, the last two F-7 ejections involved the same pilot !!
While squadron was deployed at Risalewala ( Faisalabad ), he first ejected from F-7 due to engine problem....luckily he came out unhurt and started flying after week or so....and again ejected in the next mission on FT-7 ( 2 seat trainer of F-7)..
Although there are few pilots in PAF with multiple ejections, but nobody ejected twice in a span of 10 days....

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## fatman17

x_man said:


> Unfortunately, the last two F-7 ejections involved the same pilot !!
> While squadron was deployed at Risalewala ( Faisalabad ), he first ejected from F-7 due to engine problem....luckily he came out unhurt and started flying after week or so....and again ejected in the next mission on FT-7 ( 2 seat trainer of F-7)..
> Although there are few pilots in PAF with multiple ejections, but nobody ejected twice in a span of 10 days....



x_man nice to hear from you after a while. just for my info. isnt there a procedure in the PAF where if a pilot is involved in a mishap / crash, he is grounded pending the inquiry to ascertain the causes before the pilot is cleared for flying again.


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## x_man

Sir, you are right...There is a procedure following an accident/incident that is followed and all the personal involved remain off from further flying duties...BUT...sometimes, depending upon the situation (accident circumstances, pilots health, immediate cause of accident, necessity of operations etc etc) wavers are given and one can continue the flying duties while the enquiry runs in parallel...

In this particular case, as I mentioned that squadron was at deployment and pilot involved happened to be the Officer Commanding ....the first ejection was a very obvious engine problem and ejection was very clean....So he was cleared to fly....

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## araz

x_man.
Nice to see you back after a while. My question is , is this a really unfortunate coincidence, or there is more involvedie pilot error. I hope this can be cleared out ASAP.
WaSalam
Araz


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## x_man

Araz

I would just say that it was a freak coincidence....

While 70% of commercial and military accidents are caused by human error, the last two F-7 crashes had nothing to do with pilot error...he probably just came on the left side of God for few days..

But the good thing is that he is safe and well and still eager to get back into the cockpit...

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## araz

x_man said:


> Araz
> 
> I would just say that it was a freak coincidence....
> 
> While 70% of commercial and military accidents are caused by human error, the last two F-7 crashes had nothing to do with pilot error...he probably just came on the left side of God for few days..
> 
> But the good thing is that he is safe and well and still eager to get back into the cockpit...



x_man
thank you for your post. Seems like nature is trying to tell him something.On a serious note, I am glad he is fine and rearing to go and that both accidents were freak ones. Wish him the best of luck.
Regards
Araz


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## fatman17

June 11 - Pakistan AF/PAF Academy - T-37C
crashed in open fields following a *technical fault and in-flight fire* at pir ghari village, near mardan, 37 miles (60KM) northwest of peshawar, NWFP, killing the student pilot, P/O Samman Riaz, who was on a solo flight.

June 21 - Pakistan AF - Chengdu FT-7
crashed, caught fire and destroyed in open fields, 15 miles (25KM) west of faisalabad, punjab province, after the student pilot and instructor had ejected safely following a technical problem during a training mission.


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## abdul salam

wat means understand people uses defence


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## ejaz007

According to latest news on jang urdu web site a Mashaq has crashed near Bahawalpur killing the pilot. More details as soon as available.


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## Owais

*Pilot killed in plane crash*
Updated at: 1535 PST, Wednesday, August 13, 2008


Pilot killed in plane crash BAHAWALPUR: The pilot of a Pakistan army plane was killed after his aircraft crashed in Bahawalpur on Wednesday.

Rescue 1122 said that incident occurred near Chak-28 BC in Bahawalpur. The plane was on a routine training flight and crashed due to technical faults.

Pilot Captain Bilal died on the spot while his body was shifted to CMH Bahawalpur.

Pilot killed in plane crash - GEO.tv


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## fatman17

Owais said:


> *Pilot killed in plane crash*
> Updated at: 1535 PST, Wednesday, August 13, 2008
> 
> 
> Pilot killed in plane crash BAHAWALPUR: The pilot of a Pakistan army plane was killed after his aircraft crashed in Bahawalpur on Wednesday.
> 
> Rescue 1122 said that incident occurred near Chak-28 BC in Bahawalpur. The plane was on a routine training flight and crashed due to technical faults.
> 
> Pilot Captain Bilal died on the spot while his body was shifted to CMH Bahawalpur.
> 
> Pilot killed in plane crash - GEO.tv



very sad news! another life lost serving the country!


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## fatman17

Pakistan army plane crashes, pilot killed 

BAHAWALPUR: A Pakistan army aviation Mashaq aircraft crashed in eastern Punjab province Wednesday. The Pilot was killed. 

The Mashak plane was on a routine training flight and crashed nine km from Bahawalpur in Punjab province. Captain Muhammad Bilal was martyred in the crash 

The rescue teams have reached the spot, the reports said. 

Authorities have founded the plain wreckage while immediately cause of the crash didn&#8217;t trace out. Investigation has been started to find out the cause of the crash. .

ONLINE - International News Network


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## su-47

hmm, the news is a bit patchy. doesnt even mention the type of aircraft. 

nevertheless, a life was lost, and that's always sad. may his soul rest in peace.


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## fatman17

su-47 said:


> hmm, the news is a bit patchy. doesnt even mention the type of aircraft.
> 
> nevertheless, a life was lost, and that's always sad. may his soul rest in peace.



it was a Saab Supporter MFI-17 known as Mashaq in Pakistan. it is a liaison and FAC aircraft.


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## Keysersoze

su-47 said:


> hmm, the news is a bit patchy. doesnt even mention the type of aircraft.
> 
> nevertheless, a life was lost, and that's always sad. may his soul rest in peace.



It does dude. It's a Mushaq aircraft. A single prop aircraft.

MFI-17 Mushshak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## mike bennett

Dear Forum Members,
I apologize for th elong time that I have not posted.
I thought you may be interested in the following

MFI_17_Mushak

With respect

Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk

mbenshar@aol.com

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## Blackpearl

It is reported on Geo TV and Ajj TV at 2100 hours....

An F-7 has crashed near Sargodha, Pilot is Safe, as reported by News TV channels.

I am trying to find a source on net but unable to authenticate it


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## Introvert

*PAF jet crashes during routine night mission training *
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force has reported with deep regret that an F-7 Fighter Aircraft, on a routine operational night training mission, crashed 5 miles south west of PAF Base, Mushaf (Sargodha). 

The Pilot of the aircraft ejected safely, and no loss of civilian life or property has been reported. 

A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident.

http://www.onlinenews.com.pk/details.php?id=134392

Allah ka shukar hai pilot safe hai

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## Blackpearl

Can we get the name of the pilot..


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## fatman17

Baazi said:


> *PAF jet crashes during routine night mission training *
> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force has reported with deep regret that an F-7 Fighter Aircraft, on a routine operational night training mission, crashed 5 miles south west of PAF Base, Mushaf (Sargodha).
> 
> The Pilot of the aircraft ejected safely, and no loss of civilian life or property has been reported.
> 
> A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident.
> 
> ONLINE - International News Network
> 
> *Allah ka shukar hai pilot safe hai*



Ameen friend!


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## mike bennett

Dear Forum members,

It is always sad to hear of an aircraft crash. It is good to hear that the pilot ejected safely and that there were no ground injuries.

I have a list (I do not claim it is complete) of Pakistan F-7 losses and ejections at the following web site

Pakistan_F-7P

I would be grateful if anyone can help complete the details of these losses (or any other Pakistan Air Force Loss) and of the pilots who flew them. Maybe some forum members flew the F-7 and can add a comment about the aircraft, and, if they ejected, a word about their experiences.

With respect

Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk

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## Myth_buster_1

mike bennett said:


> Dear Forum members,
> 
> It is always sad to hear of an aircraft crash. It is good to hear that the pilot ejected safely and that there were no ground injuries.
> 
> I have a list (I do not claim it is complete) of Pakistan F-7 losses and ejections at the following web site
> 
> Pakistan_F-7P
> 
> I would be grateful if anyone can help complete the details of these losses (or any other Pakistan Air Force Loss) and of the pilots who flew them. Maybe some forum members flew the F-7 and can add a comment about the aircraft, and, if they ejected, a word about their experiences.
> 
> With respect
> 
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk



we had one T-37 crash in jan 2008 where the pilot stayed in the cockpit to save lives on the ground, he could have ejected and saved his life
i am sure other members will be helpful providing full details.. 





A T-37 Jet Trainer aircraft of PAF while on a routine training mission, crashed near Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute of Engineering Sciences and Technology Topi, Distt Swabi said a PAF Press release on Tuesday. The pilot of the aircraft Pilot Officer Jahanzeb embraced Shahadat.


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## Imran Khan

its hurt me wow t-33 of paf write by some one as like this?


20th August 1971 
Bangladesh Air Force Lockheed T-33
'Bluebird'. Karachi, Pakistan Attempted to fly the aircraft to join the liberation movement of Bangladesh. His fellow pilot regained control of the aircraft that subsequently crashed killing both crew. Each crew member became a martyr for their own country 

Shaheed M. Matiur Rahman died in crash 
Rashid Minhas Shaheed died
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Country-By-Country/Bangla_Desh.htm in crash


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## mike bennett

Dear Sir,
I am the author of the ejection web site.

No offence was intended by the entry into the Bangla Desh Air Force.
I will amend the information to show that the aircraft belonged to the Pakistan Air Force.

I believe that it is correct that when _Matiur Rahman _attempted to fly the aircraft from Pakistan territory to Bangla Desh, _Rashid Minhas_, the other pilot in the aircraft regained a degree of control and in the ensuing struggle the aircraft crashed.

Each pilot was seen as a martyr but by the opposing sides.

I have made preliminary amendments to the web entry.

I would be grateful if you, and / or others, could help draft an accurate brief of the events that will be historically accurate and acceptable to the site visitors.

With respect

Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk
England


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## fatman17

mike bennett said:


> Dear Sir,
> I am the author of the ejection web site.
> 
> No offence was intended by the entry into the Bangla Desh Air Force.
> I will amend the information to show that the aircraft belonged to the Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> I believe that it is correct that when _Matiur Rahman _attempted to fly the aircraft from Pakistan territory to Bangla Desh, _Rashid Minhas_, the other pilot in the aircraft regained a degree of control and in the ensuing struggle the aircraft crashed.
> 
> Each pilot was seen as a martyr but by the opposing sides.
> 
> I have made preliminary amendments to the web entry.
> 
> I would be grateful if you, and / or others, could help draft an accurate brief of the events that will be historically accurate and acceptable to the site visitors.
> 
> With respect
> 
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk
> England



Hello Mike,

Nice to hear from you again.

There are 2 members of our TT who can give u a historically accurate account of this incident = MuradK and x_man. there may be others and all other written accounts are laced with nationalistic fervour (respectfully). nevertheless Rashid Minhas was a brave pilot who gave the ultimate sacrifice.


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## fatman17

From The Story of the Pakistan Air Force - A Saga of Courage & Honour.
page: 615

1971
Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas, Nishan-e-Haider. (= to Victoria Cross)

On the morning of Friday, 20th August 71, P/O Rashid Minhas, a pilot still under training, was in the front seat of a jet trainer (T-33A), taxying out for take-off. An instructor pilot from the same unit forced his way into the rear cockpit, seized control of the a/c and having taken off, haded the a/c towards India. with just some 40m of pakistani territory remaining, Minhas had only had one course open to him to prevent his a/c from entering India. Without hesitation, and living up to the highest traditions of the PAF, Rashid Minhas tried to regain control of the a/c, but finding this to be impossible in the face of superior skill and experience of his instructor, forced the a/c to crash at a point 32m from the indian border. In doing so P/O Minhas deliberately made the supreme sacrifice for the honour of Pakistan and to the service to which he belonged. For this act of heroism above and beyond the call of duty, the President of Pakistan is pleased to award the Nishan-e-Haider (NH) to P/O Rashid Minhas.

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## Imran Khan

mike bennett said:


> Dear Sir,
> I am the author of the ejection web site.
> 
> No offence was intended by the entry into the Bangla Desh Air Force.
> I will amend the information to show that the aircraft belonged to the Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> I believe that it is correct that when _Matiur Rahman _attempted to fly the aircraft from Pakistan territory to Bangla Desh, _Rashid Minhas_, the other pilot in the aircraft regained a degree of control and in the ensuing struggle the aircraft crashed.
> 
> Each pilot was seen as a martyr but by the opposing sides.
> 
> I have made preliminary amendments to the web entry.
> 
> I would be grateful if you, and / or others, could help draft an accurate brief of the events that will be historically accurate and acceptable to the site visitors.
> 
> With respect
> 
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk
> England



sir my concren is there is no t-33 of bangladesh air force that was pakistani t-33 who can we say rashid minhas shaheed was in bangladeshi plane


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## mike bennett

Dear Imran Khan,

I would like to thank you for the note to the forum concerning my error. I would like to point out that the error was mine and I apologize for this. 

It is of great importance to me that the information shown on my web site is historically accurate.

The best way to find out what happened is by interviewing or corresponding with "those who were there" and this I try to do. 

Where I use publications and other accounts of events I try to extract the facts. Some articles are very even handed, some show bias, and often news papers will produce sensationalist reports. 

I try to present the information in a dignified manner that shows respect for those mentioned on the web site and also I am always mindful that behind each name is a "real person" - and each person will have family and relatives and their feelings must be taken into consideration. 

I would rather forum members draw attention to errors so that they can be amended for the future.


I have made a preliminary amendment to the web entry about the loss of the Pakistan T-33 and I will produce a short web page in a few days time about the events of that day.

I will also double check other entries related to this loss to ensure the data is correct.

Please, if you or other forum members do see an error, contact me either by the forum (as this allows others to see and hopefully add extra detail) or if a simple mistake (such as a spelling error) by private message or email to mbenshar@aol.com

With respect

Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk

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## Myth_buster_1

@ Mike Bennett

you have actually done a great job maintaining your website. their might be some errors but its great you are open to fixing it. 
most important of all.. isnt it right that your website only suppose to include "ejection attrition"? if thats the case then i think in "T-33" case non of the pilots ejected.
one more thing. 8 PAF F-16s have been lost not 9 and only one was shot down "own goal". i am sure sir Muradk can give us the full details.. 

regards..


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## mike bennett

Dear 23march,

Thank you for the quick and positive reply.
The web site is _*was*_ intended only for ejections.

However - To ensure that I did not miss out any ejections I began adding all the known losses - the intention to then separate the ejections.

During the time the web site has been available and over the many years I have been researching the subject I have had many people requesting that I also include their "loved ones" who sadly did not survive in crashes, even if they did not eject. Many have sent photos.
It is a privilege and honour to do this.

Therefore I made a decision that I would include all known crashes.

I MUST make a better navigation possible on the web site to let people go to the pages that are of interest to them.

I am trying to discover the best way of creating an on line data base so that visitors to the web site can search for who and what they are interested in.
I think this would be a sensible development of the site and would allow to only enter the information once - making it easier to update and amend.

I have also found that "Bail-out" information is not easily available. There are a large number of members of the ""Caterpillar Club" worldwide but no comprehensive lists outside the Parachute manufacturers records (these are not available) - 
Many of the "ejectees" are also members of the various parachute users clubs.

Slowly, when I have the time I add to the lists of known Bail-Outs - Eventually I hope to produce an alphabetical index those who used parachutes to save their lives.

All information comes from public domain sources, and when possible from the person who bailed-out.

Concerning the F-16 losses I will revisit the page and see if I can amend the information.

Thank you again for your comments.

I remain

with respect

Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk
England


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## Imran Khan

respected sir i check it now only flag change but name is same sir bangladsh air force writen down the flag of pakistan BAF found at 16 dec 1971 accedent happens at 20 august so who taht was BAF please can you change the name also if you can thatnks
best regards


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## Imran Khan

offical BAF site

It was largely possible due to the sincerity of those members who established the Air Wing of the Liberation War on *28 September 1971 *at Dimapur of Nagaland, India. The air wing possessed a scanty inventory of one DC-3 airplane, one Otter airplane and one Alluette helicopter


*wikipedia*
History

Bangladesh Air Force was officially formed during the Bangladesh Liberation War against Pakistan in 1971. Its official date of formation has been established as September 21, 1971.


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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2008 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

Pakistani F-7 fighter crashes

Gareth Jennings Jane's Aviation Reporter - London

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) CAC F-7 combat aircraft crashed during a routine training mission near Mushaf Airbase, about 150 km southwest of the capital Islamabad, on 9 October. 

Pakistani media reported that the Chinese-built single-seat aircraft came down during a night training mission and that the *pilot ejected safely.* *Jane's understands that the aircraft belonged to the PAF's Combat Commanders' School and was an F-7MP variant used for tactics training*. 

The cause of the crash is not yet known and the Pakistani military has launched an investigation.

*This is the fifth regional loss of a CAC F-7 variant aircraft in recent months.* On 15 December 2007 a PAF F-7 crashed during a training exercise in the Punjab region. The pilot of a Bangladesh Air Force F-7 was killed when his aircraft crashed some 100 km north of the capital, Dhaka, on 10 April 2008 and, one week later, a PAF F-7 came down during a training mission near Faisalabad. On 21 June a PAF GAIC FT-7 two-seat trainer aircraft crashed during a routine training mission in the Punjab. 

*The PAF currently operates approximately 190 F-7 variant aircraft, which have been in service since 1988*.

&#169; 2008 Jane's Information Group


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## fatman17

_here is an interesting piece, note the dates please._

*Sep 23*, Unknown, Unidentified UAV
reported as having crashed near the village of jalal khel, 5 miles (8km) from *Angoor Adda* in Pakistan's S.Waziristan tribal region and 2 miles (3km) from the border with Afghanistan. the wreckage was recovered by security forces. local pashtun tribesman claimed they had shot it down but officials said they thought it had merely suffered a technical malfunction. *although some reports suggested it was a USAF MQ-1 Predator, pentagon officials said they had no knowledge of any UAV loss in the region.*. a pakistani intelligence officer said the UAV was only 3ft (0.9m) long, with a wing-span of about 5ft (1.5m), making it very much smaller than a Predator, but further details were not reported,

*Sep 23*, USAF, MQ-1 Predator
crashed in paktika province, eastern afghanistan, about 60 miles (96km) west of the pakistan border, following engine problems, but US forces quickly recovered the UAV.

what is common in USAF MQ-1 Predator ops along the pak-afghan border:
S.Waziristan, Angoor Adda. sounds like a cover-up.


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## fatman17

This was reported in the latest issue of AFM (March-09)
Why??


*Aug ??, 1993. Pakistan AF, Shenyang FT-6*
Collided with a train on the railway line that cuts across the runway and a taxiway at the PAF Base Peshawar. Both crew escaped unharmed, but the aircraft was a writeoff.


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> This was reported in the latest issue of AFM (March-09)
> Why??
> 
> 
> *Aug ??, 1993. Pakistan AF, Shenyang FT-6*
> Collided with a train on the railway line that cuts across the runway and a taxiway at the PAF Base Peshawar. Both crew escaped unharmed, but the aircraft was a writeoff.



What an odd arrangement. Could some one please clarify
Araz


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## mike bennett

Sad News.
Two crew of a Pakistan Training aircraft were killed today (Thursday 5th)
LINK

Two pilots killed in Pakistani military air crash | Top News

With respect
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk


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## ejaz007

*Trainer and cadet killed in PAF plane crash near Talagang*

ISLAMABAD: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) plane crashed during a training flight near Talagang on Thursday, killing the pilot and a cadet, said a press release. The PAF announces with great grief that a Mushak trainer aircraft crashed near Dhoke Pathan Bridge. The pilot, Squadron Leader Usman Safdar, and aviation cadet Zohaib embraced martyrdom, the statement said. No loss of civilian life and no damage to property on the ground were reported, and an inquiry has been ordered into the crash, it said. staff report

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## HASANITALIA

Daily UrduPoint.com, Live Urdu News- Updated 24 hours??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????


is that true any info????


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## Patriot

Yep, a PAF Uav crashed today.I hope it's local made UAV and not the Italian..


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## CanadianPad

Who knows ... some local may have taken a shot at it thinking this is a US UAV.


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## Hyde

CanadianPad said:


> Who knows ... some local may have taken a shot at it thinking this is a US UAV.



hahahahaha that's funny

awaam joh bhi UAV dekhti hai yehi samaghti ho gi ke American hai 

very sad news for us


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## fatman17

its a PA UAV but it may not be a falco - i saw the video on Geo-TV. looks like engine failure. the structure is intact! - surprisingly!


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## shehbazi2001

Geo News have reported that the visit of ACM Tanvir to Kohat was cancelled after the crash of Falco UAV in that area....................

Was the UAV doing general recce of the area before the visit of ACM?


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## Bane Blade

Well thanks to Musharraf and Zardari with their wonderfull policies its raining UAv's


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## shehbazi2001

Its good that only a UAV was lost. Some years ago, in the same area of Kohat, ACM Mushaf lost his life.


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## arslan_treen

MAY be somthing wrong with the ARea!!! Joking ,how come the news are saying its a JET UAV ??


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## hj786

fatman17 said:


> the structure is intact! - surprisingly!


Quick! Send it to NESCOM so the engineers can reverse-engineer it and build their own... oh wait, never mind.


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## Hayreddin

falcon UAV done the crash landing in the mountains of kohat


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## mike bennett

Dear Forum Members,

I hope that this is OK for this forum thread.
I have been updating my Royal Jordanian Air Force Information and noted the friendly co-operation between the Jordanian and Pakistan Air Forces. I also believe that PAF pilots took part in operations during the Arab-Israeli Conflicts.
I have also found that a Jordanian Pilot was lost flying a Pakistan T-37 and a Pakistan pilot was lost flying a Jordanian Casa C-101

December 3, 1960
RJAF
Chipmunk
Captain Seed Mohammed Hanin Shah (PAF)


26th May 1970
Pakistan
T37
Mamoun Abu Nowar
ejected (Weber Ejection Seat)


Tuesday 4th October 2005 09:15h
RJAF
Casa C-101

11sq
Two Royal Jordanian Air Force Casa 101s collided in mid-air during training, killing two pilots

Omar Ahmad Hassan [KAF] ejected, survived with serious injuries (Martin-Baker)

Colonel Ahmad Marji Al Lahem [RJAF] - killed in accident
Major Nouman Altaf Shaikh Hassan (PAF) - killed in accident

Can anyone add any details of the T-37 Loss - was there a PAF pilot in the aircraft as well and if so what happened to him.

Also I am still trying to find photos to go on the Pakistan Air Force Pages of the web site - maybe some Pakistan based magazines / old air force publications may hold such photos - if you can help I will be very grateful and of course acknowledge your support.
If any former PAF pilots read this thread I would very much appreciate any input to improve the web site's accuracy

Best regards and with respect

Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk

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## Rafael

I found this video on youtube, didnt know where to paste it. B-52 crashed.


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## Rafael

lol, this is kinda funny..plane crashed at playing field.


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## Najam Khan

ejaz007 said:


> *Trainer and cadet killed in PAF plane crash near Talagang*
> 
> ISLAMABAD: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) plane crashed during a training flight near Talagang on Thursday, killing the pilot and a cadet, said a press release. The PAF announces with great grief that a Mushak trainer aircraft crashed near Dhoke Pathan Bridge. The pilot, Squadron Leader Usman Safdar, and aviation cadet Zohaib embraced martyrdom, the statement said. No loss of civilian life and no damage to property on the ground were reported, and an inquiry has been ordered into the crash, it said. staff report
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



Sadly it was Pilot error!
The tyres of the aircraft struck in the earth wire on the top of electric pole. 
Source : An IP


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## CanadianPad

Maybe there was an engine failure and they were trying to glide down....and eventually the with no power the pole was unavoidable.
Just my thought.....cant be certain without the inquiry.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,


A raptor crashed today.





From Mike Mount 
CNN Pentagon Producer

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An Air Force F-22A fighter jet crashed Wednesday near Edwards Air Force Base in California, Air Force officials said.


An F-22A fighter jet similar to this one crashed Wednesday during a test mission in California.

The single-seater crashed about 10:30 a.m. for unknown reasons, the officials said.

The status of the pilot was unknown.

At $150 million apiece, the F-22A is the most expensive Air Force fighter.

The fighter was on a test mission when it crashed about 35 miles northeast of Edwards AFB, where it was stationed, the Air Force said in a news release.

In 2004, an F-22 Raptor crashed on a training mission in the Nevada desert. The pilot ejected and was not hurt, though the jet was destroyed.

The plane was designed in the 1980s to provide a stealthy method to enter Soviet air space and strike Soviet bombers if the USSR attempted a nuclear strike.

Once the Cold War ended, the Air Force found a new mission for the F-22 as a long-range fighter with a sophisticated stealth design and state-of-the-art equipment that no other plane could rival.

However, the rising cost of the plane and numerous design and software problems threatened the program, which was almost killed by Congress.

In the end, the aircraft survived, and most of the problems were fixed, except for the price tag, which forced the Air Force to buy fewer aircraft.


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## PAFAce

F-22 Raptor Crash March 25, 2009. 

Same crash as above (posted by the ever vigilant MastanKhan), but different sources. The BBC claims the pilot's status is unknown, whereas AirForceTimes reports that the pilot has died.



> *Stealth jet crashes in US desert *
> 
> A state-of-the-art US air force F-22 fighter has crashed in the desert in southern California, the Pentagon says.
> 
> The fate of the pilot was not immediately known after the plane, which was on a test mission, came down near Edwards Air Force Base.
> 
> The US air force website lists the F-22 Raptor, which is made by Lockheed Martin, as its newest fighter.
> 
> The air force said the jet has "better reliability and maintainability than any fighter aircraft in history".
> 
> The F-22 crashed at about 1000 local time (1700 GMT), officials said.
> 
> Rescue teams were reported to be on their way to the crash site.
> 
> A board of officers will investigate the crash, the air force said.
> 
> The $140m (&#163;96m), supersonic F-22 is a so-called fifth generation jet, and arguably the world's most sophisticated fighter.
> 
> It is capable of both air-to-air and ground attacks.
> 
> But the $65 billion F-22 programme has faced criticism, with opponents saying the jet is too costly and not sufficiently versatile.
> 
> The US government is committed to buying 183 F-22s reduced from the original plan laid out in the 1980s to build 750, the Associated Press news agency reported.
> 
> The air force said the crash was the second involving an F-22.
> 
> In the previous crash, which happened in December 2004 during the aircraft's test period, the pilot ejected safely.
> Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7964577.stm





> *Lockheed pilot killed in F-22 crash*
> 
> By Michael Hoffman and Sam LaGrone - Staff writers
> Posted : Wednesday Mar 25, 2009 19:24:57 EDT
> 
> The pilot flying the F-22 that crashed Wednesday morning near Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., was pronounced dead at a local hospital, officials said.
> 
> The pilot, whose name was not released, was a contractor working for Lockheed Martin, the company that manufactures the F-22. Officials didn&#8217;t say if the pilot had served in the Air Force.
> 
> The Raptor crashed at around 10 a.m. Wednesday morning about 25 miles northeast of Edwards while flying a test mission, said Gary Strasburg, an Air Force spokesman. The aircraft is based at Edwards where F-22s are tested by the 412th Training Wing.
> 
> Officers with the California Highway Patrol saw smoke in the area of Cuddedry Lake, an old emergency landing field for experimental planes, near Edwards, said Officer E. Smith, a spokesman for the Highway Patrol.
> 
> &#8220;We were told to stay out of the scene and that they were sending a rescue helicopter for the pilot,&#8221; Smith said.
> 
> Only one other U.S.-owned F-22 has crashed. That plane went down Dec. 20, 2004, during takeoff at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev. The cause was flight control software errors.
> 
> The service has 134 F-22s that cost $133 million each. It is the first fifth-generation fighter jet to be fielded by the U.S.
> Source: http://airforcetimes.com/news/2009/03/airforce_f22crash_032509w/


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## ARSENAL6

Maybe a f16 shot it down !


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## Salahadin

F-22 crashes in California desert; pilot killed

EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif.  One of the Air Force's top-of-the-line F-22 fighter jets crashed Wednesday in the high desert of Southern California, killing a test pilot for prime contractor Lockheed Martin Corp.
The F-22A Raptor crashed at 10 a.m. about 35 miles northeast of Edwards Air Force Base in the Mojave Desert. The Bureau of Land Management identifies the area as Harper Dry Lake, a vast and empty expanse of sometimes marshy flat land.
The pilot was David Cooley, 49, a 21-year Air Force veteran who joined Lockheed Martin in 2003, the company said in a statement. It did not release any details of the accident, including whether Cooley attempted to eject.
A statement issued by Edwards said first responders transported Cooley from the crash scene to Victor Valley Community Hospital in Victorville, where he was pronounced dead.
Cooley, of Palmdale, Calif., was part of a team of company and Air Force pilots who conduct F-22 testing.
"We are deeply saddened by the loss of David and our concerns, thoughts and prayers at this time are with his family," the statement said.
Sam Grizzle, a spokesman for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., said no additional information would be released.
A board of officers is investigating the crash, the Edwards statement said. The Air Force urged people to stay away from the site because hazardous materials may have been released.
"This is a very difficult day for Edwards and those who knew and respected Dave as a warrior, test pilot and friend," said Maj. Gen. David Eichhorn, the Air Force Flight Test Center commander.
The jet, assigned to the 411th Flight Test Squadron of Edwards' 412th Test Wing, was on a test mission, said Air Force Maj. David Small at the Pentagon. Small did not know the nature of the mission.
The radar-evading F-22s each cost $140 million and are designed for air dominance. The warplanes can carry air-to-air missiles but are capable of ground attack as well.
The $65 billion F-22 program is embattled, with some opponents contending that a different warplane under development, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, is more versatile and less costly at $80 million per plane.
F-22s were grounded for two weeks after one crashed at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada in December 2004. They were cleared again to fly after a review, and an Air Force statement at the time said officials were "highly confident in the design, testing and development" of the aircraft. The pilot in that crash successfully ejected.
The U.S. is committed to 183 F-22s, down from the original plan laid out in the 1980s to build 750.
Lockheed Martin says there are 95,000 jobs at 1,000 companies connected to the F-22.
It is trying to persuade the Pentagon to buy as many as 20 more F-22s. The military is expected to signal its intentions when the 2010 Defense Department budget is released next month.
The F-22 is able to fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners. That allows it to reach and stay in a battlespace faster and longer without being easily detected.
The fighter, powered by two Pratt & Whitney engines, is 62 feet long, has a wingspan of 44 1/2 feet and is flown by a single pilot.

F-22 crashes in California desert; pilot killed - Yahoo! News


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## MastanKhan

A statement issued by Edwards said first responders transported Cooley from the crash scene to Victor Valley Community Hospital in Victorville, where he was pronounced dead.





Hi,

I, as a matter of fact worked in victorville at a car dealership as a sales manager for a while. It is a high desert pleateau----high winds---sand---weeds---joshua trees---heat heat and heat.

One story gets to another---one of the sales person worked for me in the early 2000---awhile before that he worked at edwards painting aircraft---he told me that he saw a sky blue SR 71 at that base a few times ( possibly for day time ) never could confirm it on the web---but the guy was not the type to lie---.


----------



## Wingman

Pilot Aircraft Year 

Flt Lt Naseem Tariq F-86 1981??
W/C Hasnaat Ahmed F-6 1984
S/L Zafar Ahsin F-16 1989
Flt Lt Muqtadar Mirage? 1990
Gp Capt Ali Asad Khan Mirage 2003?
S/L Hasnaat Ikram malik Mirage 2004?
Flt Lt Imran Tariq F-7 2004 (S/o F Lt Naseem Tariq)
W/C Rizwan Mirage 2006
W/C Akram Ranjha Mirage 2006
W/C Azhar Ismael Mirage 2008

Note: All the Pilots Died.


----------



## mike bennett

Prompted by Dreamer's recent posts I thought I'd take a quick look at my "things to find out - PAF Losses"
Do any forum members have any extra details of the following

1. Tuesday evening. 10th June 1997 *Flt. Azizur Rehman *ejected to safety at 15 kilometre west of Atharahazari, district Jhang

2. *Flt Lt. Raghib Ghafoor *- believed to have ejected from a Mirage

3. Names of F-16 pilots who were killed on the following dates

4th September 1989 - F-16A Block 15Q - 81-0910 - 38th TW - G-Loc - pilot killed

17th March 1994 - F-16A Block 15S - 85721 - 14th Sqn - Spatial dis-orientation - pilot killed 

4. Is *Squadron Leader Syed Hassan Raza *who ejected safely from an F-16 on 16th June 1991 the same person as *Air Commodore Syed Hassan Raza *and Does anyone have contact with, or a photo of him

5. Does anyone have contact with, or a photo of *Squadron Leader Nadeem Anjum* who ejected from an F-16 on 28th October 1991

As always I'll add the any updates / replies for all to view and share on the web site 

With respect
Mike Bennett


----------



## fatman17

Geo is reporting that a *un-manned helicopter?* of PAF has crashed near Sargodha due to technical fault.


----------



## x_man

mike bennett said:


> *Do any forum members have any extra details of the following
> 
> 1. Tuesday evening. 10th June 1997 Flt. Azizur Rehman ejected to safety at 15 kilometre west of Atharahazari, district Jhang*
> 
> F/L Aziz was seriously injured after ejection; however he was rescued very promptly and taken to the nearest military hospital. After remaining unfit from flying for couple of years, he was reinstated to the flying status. He later commanded the Fighter conversion unit.
> 
> *2. Flt Lt. Raghib Ghafoor - believed to have ejected from a Mirage*
> 
> Raghib also suffered injuries, but he is back in cockpit now.
> 
> 
> *3. Names of F-16 pilots who were killed on the following dates
> 
> 4th September 1989 - F-16A Block 15Q - 81-0910 - 38th TW - G-Loc - pilot killed*
> 
> Sqn Ldr Nasir from CCS. While flying a dissimilar aircomabat mission, during merge he experienced G induces loss of conciousness ( G-Loc) and hit the ground .
> 
> *17th March 1994 - F-16A Block 15S - 85721 - 14th Sqn - Spatial dis-orientation - pilot killed *
> 
> Sqn Ldr Zafar from 9 sqn . During a night interception mission he got disorientated, went into a steep dive and never made any attempt to recover. Before impacting, he gave repeated calls about his disorientation.
> 
> *
> 4. Is Squadron Leader Syed Hassan Raza who ejected safely from an F-16 on 16th June 1991 the same person as Air Commodore Syed Hassan Raza and Does anyone have contact with, or a photo of him*
> 
> Yes he is the same person. Sorry, no contact with him but heres a picture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *5. Does anyone have contact with, or a photo of Squadron Leader Nadeem Anjum who ejected from an F-16 on 28th October 1991*
> 
> Sorry no contact and couldnt find any pic.


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## Muradk

dreamer said:


> Pilot Aircraft Year
> 
> Flt Lt Naseem Tariq F-86 1981??
> W/C Hasnaat Ahmed F-6 1984
> S/L Zafar Ahsin F-16 1989
> Flt Lt Muqtadar Mirage? 1990
> Gp Capt Ali Asad Khan Mirage 2003?
> S/L Hasnaat Ikram malik Mirage 2004?
> Flt Lt Imran Tariq F-7 2004 (S/o F Lt Naseem Tariq)
> W/C Rizwan Mirage 2006
> W/C Akram Ranjha Mirage 2006
> W/C Azhar Ismael Mirage 2008
> 
> Note: All the Pilots Died.



my friend your list has most of the crashes but not all 4 F-6 crashed between 81 and 82.


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## shehbazi2001

x_man said:


> mike bennett said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Do any forum members have any extra details of the following
> 
> 
> Sqn Ldr Zafar from 9 sqn . During a night interception mission he got disorientated, went into a steep dive and never made any attempt to recover. Before impacting, he gave repeated calls about his disorientation.*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Was it not possible for the pilot to switch to auto pilot on the occasion of disorientation? Many fighters have autopilots of several kinds like heading autopilot, attitude autopilot or altitude autopilot and it should do the job. Mig-29 since its inception had such an autopilot.*
Click to expand...


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## x_man

shehbazi2001 said:


> Was it not possible for the pilot to switch to auto pilot on the occasion of disorientation? Many fighters have autopilots of several kinds like heading autopilot, attitude autopilot or altitude autopilot and it should do the job. Mig-29 since its inception had such an autopilot.



Actually he did select the autopilot *ON* but it was engaged while he was in inverted flight. If one selects the autopilot in altitude and heading select modes while inverted, the aircraft will fly sort of an inverted loop to roll out onto the new heading. And thats what it actually happened and the aircraft hit the ground while following AP commands.

Had he selected the attitude hold mode or engaged the AP in level flight, he might be still with us. But as we say that when ones time is up its up no matter how hi tech systems he/she is operating. In fighter flying, you dont have to make huge errors; mostly its just the small little omissions and errors that get you in the end.

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## SQ8

5. Does anyone have contact with, or a photo of Squadron Leader Nadeem Anjum who ejected from an F-16 on 28th October 1991

My friends dad.. 
Will ask him for a photo


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## sergente rehan

I've few questions to ask:

How many F-16's we lost till now days in total?

I don't know which is the correct word but i think it's like "crash rate" in an air force....so what is PAF crash rate?


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## Neo

sergente rehan said:


> I've few questions to ask:
> 
> How many F-16's we lost till now days in total?



We've lost 8 F-16's since 1986:

Date Status Local S/N Aircraft AF/Unit Version Info 

*22 Oct 1994* [w/o] 82701 81-0899 PAF 11 sqn F-16A Block 15E Details: Crashed near Sargodha, Pakistan 

*04 Sep 1989* [w/o] 84712 81-0910 PAF 38 TW F-16A Block 15Q Details: During a night sortie and a few minutes after take-off from Sargodha AB, the wingman informed his lead and ground control that he is disoriented. They tried to help by repeatedly telling him to concentrate on the instruments but he crashed a few miles from Sarghoda. 

*29 Apr 1987* [w/o] 85720 81-0918 PAF 14 sqn F-16A Block 15S Details: Shot down by an Afghan fighter. Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan ejected safely. 

*17 Mar 1994* [w/o] 85721 81-0919 PAF 14 sqn F-16A Block 15S Details: Crashed near Sargodha, Pakistan. 

*16 Jun 1991* [w/o] 85723 81-0921 PAF 38 TW F-16A Block 15T Details: On a night training mission with one other F-16. Returning to Kamra AB to land suffered an engine failure forcing Squadron Leader Syed Hassan Raza to eject. 

*28 Oct 1991* [w/o] 85725 81-0923 PAF 14 sqn F-16A Block 15U Details: Crashed in Attock, Pakistan after it suffered an engine failure during a dogfight training mission with the pilot, Squadron Leader Nadeem Anjum, ejected safely. 

*10 Nov 1993* [w/o] 84607 81-0937 PAF 38 TW F-16B Block 15N Details: Crash caused by a birdhit. 

*18 Dec 1986* [w/o] 85609 81-1504 PAF 38 TW F-16B Block 15U Details: The aircraft took off from Sargodha AB and hit a wild boar causing the two pilots to eject.

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## PAFAce

Neo said:


> *29 Apr 1987* [w/o] 85720 81-0918 PAF 14 sqn F-16A Block 15S Details: Shot down by an Afghan fighter. Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan ejected safely.



Neo, are you sure about this one? From what I remember, we didn't lose any aircraft to the Soviets/Afghans in the 1980s, however, we lost 1 F-16 to friendly fire (AIM-9 Sidewinder, I believe).

Please confirm.

*Update 1*



> *Incidents during the Soviet-Afghan War (1986-1988)*
> 
> During the Soviet-Afghan war, Pakistan Air Force Between May 1986 and January 1989, PAF F-16s shot down at least ten intruders from Afghanistan. Four of the kills were Afghan Su-22s bombers, three were Afghan transports (two An-26s and one An-24), and one was a Soviet Su-25 bomber. Most of these kills were achieved using the AIM-9 Sidewinder, but a Su-22 was destroyed by cannon fire and the one An-24 crash landed after being forced to land upon interception.
> 
> Afghanistan claimed to have shot down one Pakistani F-16A during an encounter on 29 April 1987; the pilot ejected safely and landed in Pakistani territory. Pakistani authorities admitted to having lost a fighter jet to enemy fighters, but suggested that it may have been either an F-16 or an F-6 and insisted it was attacked over Pakistani territory. Subsequently, Pakistani officials confirmed that the loss was an F-16, but asserted it was accidentally shot down in a friendly fire incident during a dogfight with enemy aircraft over Pakistani territory. According to this claim, Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan&#8217;s F-16 was hit by an AIM-9 missile fired by another F-16 piloted by Squadron Leader Amjad Javed.



*Update 2*



> Between May 1986 and November of 1988, PAF F-16s have shot down at least eight intruders from Afghanistan. The first three of these (one Su-22, one probable Su-22, and one An-26) were shot down by two pilots from No. 9 Squadron. Pilots of No. 14 Squadron destroyed the remaining five intruders (two Su-22s, two MiG-23s, and one Su-25). Most of these kills were by the AIM-9 Sidewinder, but at least one (a Su-22) was destroyed by cannon fire. Flight Lieutenant Khalid Mamood is credited with three of these kills. At least one F-16 was lost in these battles, this one in an encounter between two F-16s and six Afghan Air Force aircraft on April 29th, 1987. However, the lost F-16 appears to have been an 'own goal', having been hit by a Sidewinder fired by the other F-16. The unfortunate F-16 pilot (Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan) ejected safely



*Update 3*

I think this is the same Shahid Sikandar Khan
Flying Just for Fun, 10 March 2006, UAE Daily Newspaper Khaleej Times


> &#8220;Microlight flying is pleasure flying, and you have one heck of a time,&#8221; said Capt Shahid Sikandar Khan, a fighter pilot who has flown for over two decades and is now an instructor at the club. &#8220;There&#8217;s not much air activity around the club&#8217;s location, so you have the whole skies to yourself. To top it all, no other place in the UAE offers such scenic and beautiful terrain for hobby flying.&#8221;

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## fatman17

*Indian fighter jet crash injures seven*

*JODHPUR: A Russian-made Indian fighter jet crashed in western India on Friday, injuring seven people on the ground, after the pilot bailed out safely, police said.*

The MiG-27 pilot ejected over a village in Rajasthan state but seven members of a family working in a field were injured by falling debris, police superintendent Sharad Kaviraj told AFP. The plane was on a routine sortie when it went down in the village of Salawas, 42 kilometres from the city of Jodhpur, he said. 

The Indian air force, the world&#8217;s fourth-largest, has been plagued by crashes, particularly of its Russian-made MiGs. *Earlier this month, New Delhi grounded its top-of-the-line nuclear-capable Sukhoi-30s jets, also acquired from Russia, after one of them crashed on April 30. Russia is India&#8217;s leading military supplier*. 

*afp*

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## Murshad

Can someone put all information about all those who laid their lives during peace time for . With their pictures and short description. I remember IAF website has one links where all the names, pictures and how they lost their lives.


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## Wingman

Murshad said:


> Can someone put all information about all those who laid their lives during peace time for . With their pictures and short description. I remember IAF website has one links where all the names, pictures and how they lost their lives.



go to website ejection-history


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## mean_bird

Updated at: 1551 PST, Wednesday, May 27, 2009
NEW DELHI: Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG-21 'Bison' plane crashed near Jodhpur on Wednesday but the pilot ejected safely.

The warplane, which had taken off for a routine sortie in the forenoon from the Jodhpur airbase, crashed on a barren stretch land in Luni village in Mordijoshyan, near here, Superintendent of Police (Rural) Kaviraj said.

There was no damage on the ground, he said. 

Indian jet crashes near Jodhpur - GEO.tv



That's like the 3rd IAF crash in a month

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## Munir

mean_bird said:


> Updated at: 1551 PST, Wednesday, May 27, 2009
> NEW DELHI: Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG-21 'Bison' plane crashed near Jodhpur on Wednesday but the pilot ejected safely.
> 
> The warplane, which had taken off for a routine sortie in the forenoon from the Jodhpur airbase, crashed on a barren stretch land in Luni village in Mordijoshyan, near here, Superintendent of Police (Rural) Kaviraj said.
> 
> There was no damage on the ground, he said.
> 
> Indian jet crashes near Jodhpur - GEO.tv
> 
> 
> 
> That's like the 3rd IAF crash in a month



They just started flying again since a month. MKI was grounded. Same for some other types.


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## mean_bird

*In the third IAF fighter aircraft mishap in less than a month, a Mig-21 'Bison' plane on Wednesday crashed near Jodhpur *but the pilot ejected safely.

The war plane, which had taken off for a routine sortie in the forenoon from the Jodhpur airbase, crashed on a barren stretch land in Luni village in Mordijoshyan, near Jodhpur, Superintendent of Police (Rural) Kaviraj said.

There was no damage on the ground, he said.

*This is the third IAF fighter aircraft accident in less than a month, the previous mishaps being that of Mig-27 fighter aircraft, which also crashed near here on May 15, and the one involving Sukhoi-30MKI air superiority fighter which crashed near Jaisalmer on April 30.*

*With this Mig-21 crash, the IAF has lost this year five aircraft*, the first being a Kiran-MKII of the Surya Kiran aerobatics team in Bidar on January 21 followed by an unmanned aerial vehicle mishap the same day in Hashimara.

Mig-21 crashes near Jodhpur, pilot safe


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## spurdozer

Just read on Geo tv that a PAF FT-7 crashed near pipliani or something like that!! Any details?


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## SummerWine

spurdozer said:


> Just read on Geo tv that a PAF FT-7 crashed near pipliani or something like that!! Any details?



PAF plane crashes in Kandiyan

PAF plane crashes in Kandiyan 
Updated at: 1005 PST, Friday, May 29, 2009 
KANDIYAN: A plane of Pakistan Air Force crashed near Moosa Wali area of Kandiyan, the sources said Friday.

Relief teams have been sent to the mishap site.

According to a foreign news agency, a PAF aircraft FT-7 crashed near Piplianwali area of Mianwali

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## shehbazi2001

PAF plane crash kill one in Mianwali 
Updated at: 1309 PST, Friday, May 29, 2009
KANDIYAN: A plane of Pakistan Air Force crashed on a rooftop of a house in Moosa Wali area of Piplan, killing one woman, injuring at least six people, the sources said Friday.

Relief teams have been sent to the mishap site.

According to a foreign news agency, a PAF plane Chinese-built FT-7 fighter jet FT-7, during a routine operational training mission, crashed near Piplan area of Mianwali.

The plane fell on a house and at least six people including Yasin, Zainab, Nazia and Samina were injured in the accident. The injured have been shifted to District Headquarters MianWali, where Zainab Bibi succumb to injuries.

An air force spokesman said both pilotsKamran and Musharraf-- ejected safely and that an inquiry had been ordered to investigate the cause of the crash. 

Pakistan's air force has a fleet of Chinese aircraft, including F-7PGs and A-5s, US-built F-16s and French Mirages. It recently acquired medium-tech JF-17 or Thunder jets, manufactured jointly by China and Pakistan.

The plane crash damaged at least six houses. 

Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif expressed grief over the incident and directed the related departments to help the affected families.

PAF plane crash kill one in Mianwali - GEO.tv


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## Patriot

shehbazi2001 said:


> PAF plane crash kill one in Mianwali
> Updated at: 1309 PST, Friday, May 29, 2009
> KANDIYAN: A plane of Pakistan Air Force crashed on a rooftop of a house in Moosa Wali area of Piplan, killing one woman, injuring at least six people, the sources said Friday.
> 
> Relief teams have been sent to the mishap site.
> 
> According to a foreign news agency, a PAF plane Chinese-built FT-7 fighter jet FT-7, during a routine operational training mission, crashed near Piplan area of Mianwali.
> 
> The plane fell on a house and at least six people including Yasin, Zainab, Nazia and Samina were injured in the accident. The injured have been shifted to District Headquarters MianWali, where Zainab Bibi succumb to injuries.
> 
> An air force spokesman said both pilotsKamran and Musharraf-- ejected safely and that an inquiry had been ordered to investigate the cause of the crash.
> 
> Pakistan's air force has a fleet of Chinese aircraft, including F-7PGs and A-5s, US-built F-16s and French Mirages. It recently acquired medium-tech JF-17 or Thunder jets, manufactured jointly by China and Pakistan.
> 
> The plane crash damaged at least six houses.
> 
> Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif expressed grief over the incident and directed the related departments to help the affected families.
> 
> PAF plane crash kill one in Mianwali - GEO.tv


Hm Sad News..not really worried about plane crash as both pilots survived but 6 civilians injured and one died


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## Mercenary_ali

Its really sad that a person died.


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## MZUBAIR

Pakistan Air Force's aircraft crashes, 6 civilians injured 


ISLAMABAD, May 29 (Xinhua) -- An aircraft of Pakistan Air Force Friday crashed in eastern Punjab province on a routine training mission, both pilots of the aircraft ejected safely. 

A fighter-trainer aircraft FT-7 crashed 40 km South of Mianwali in Punjab province, causing damage to three houses and injuring six civilians, according to official Associated Press of Pakistan. 

The injured persons were evacuated by a special C-130 aircraft to the garrison city of Rawalpindi for treatment. 

A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident
___________________________________________________________

Fighter -trainer aircraft FT-7 is just like Pakistan F-7PG aircraft or u can say its older version for trainings.

I think these brids are about to complete their age.

Near future PAF will have to say them good bye.


View attachment b0696ed150495e4a1b39d3472b086466.jpg


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## fatman17

PIA ATR-72 crash lands at Lahore's Allama Iqbal civil airport as its left landing gear fails to lock on landing. there were no injuries.



View attachment 3139


View attachment 3140


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## Murshad

> go to website ejection-history


To some extent you are right. Instead of this site link in Warbirds of India give more compiled information. But we should have one with brief introduction to each shaheed.


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## Keysersoze

The older f-7's will be retired no doubt. However the newer build will be around for a while yet


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## mike bennett

Murshad said:


> To some extent you are right. Instead of this site link in Warbirds of India give more compiled information. But we should have one with brief introduction to each shaheed.



Dear Murshad,
Thank you for the kind words you said about going to my web site (one section containing information about Pakistan Air Force Losses and Ejections www.ejection-history.org.uk) and also adding the link to Warbirds of India - the author is a good friend of mine.

I see my site as complimenting other information on the web - not competing. Sharing information leads to greater accuracy and spreading the information to a wider audience.

I can understand your reasons for having introductions to all the PAF Shaheeds. To be able to go to one place would be a good idea. There are of course going to be problems in producing such a list - how much / how little information to include. This doesn't mean an attempt cannot be made

I "googled" "Pakistan Air Force " and then refined the search with "Shaheed" - 
Over 40,000 references were returned. 
The following link is to the Official Pakistan Air Force web site
Untitled Document

(sadly I see that the site has been targetted by hackers!)

Back to your original point - a short description and photos/photos of each Shaheed -
I have the web space and would be honoured to have such a section available to all. If anyone would like to help me compile the list and this could be built slowly over the next few months (the PAF pages on my web site have taken years to compile).
The Shaheed's details could then be accessed by link from each crash list and also by a direct list of Shaheeds. Each entry could then be built upon and amended, added to over time.

Each update could be reviewed by members of the Forum, and, importantly, where possible, permissions could be sought by people and friends in Pakistan from surviving relatives. 
Keeping the respect for those who paid the ultimate price and presenting their details in a dignified manner is paramount.


I will also offer a word of caution here. My site is a global web site and tries to present a balanced account of all losses and ejections without bias. 
(I would not like any entry to be sensationalized or controversial.)

Perhaps members of the forum could let me know what they think of a section of the web site for PAF Shaheeds - and if they would be prepared to help with text and photos. 
The section will not happen overnight - getting the format and content will take time. It is certainly a worthy task. 

I can be reached either by this thread - if that is OK with the moderators and / or by email at mbenshar@aol.com


With respect

Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk

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## fatman17

*Perhaps members of the forum could let me know what they think of a section of the web site for PAF Shaheeds - and if they would be prepared to help with text and photos. 
The section will not happen overnight - getting the format and content will take time. It is certainly a worthy task.*

good idea!


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## Rajkumar

IAF plane with 14 on board feared crashed in Arunachal



Shillong: An Air Force plane with at least 14 people on board has reportedly crashed in the eastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh.

According to sources, IAF AN-32 aircraft with eight IAF personnel and six civilians took off from Menchuka in Arunachal Pradesh and went missing shortly after.

IAF authorities fear the AN-32 plane may have crashed.

The AN-32 plane had flown from Dibrugarh in Assam to Mechuka in Arunachal from where it took off again with the civilians for Jorhat at around 2 pm, after which the aircraft went missing, said IAF spokesman Wing Commander P Sahu.

The six civilians were being ferried as part of the IAF plane's regular sortie.

An aerial search operation over the dense forests and mountains of Arunachal Pradesh bordering Bhutan where the plane might have crashed was carried out but neither the wreckage nor bodies could be located, Sahu said.

The search would resume on Wednesday and army and paramilitary personnel in the area have been put on alert.

The AN-32 is a Russian-made transport aircraft which was acquired for the Indian Air Force in the 1980s. It is considered a safe aircraft. The last crash involving an AN-32 was at Delhi in 1999.

Details are awaited.


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## fatman17

Rajkumar said:


> IAF plane with 14 on board feared crashed in Arunachal
> 
> 
> 
> Shillong: An Air Force plane with at least 14 people on board has reportedly crashed in the eastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh.
> 
> According to sources, IAF AN-32 aircraft with eight IAF personnel and six civilians took off from Menchuka in Arunachal Pradesh and went missing shortly after.
> 
> IAF authorities fear the AN-32 plane may have crashed.
> 
> The AN-32 plane had flown from Dibrugarh in Assam to Mechuka in Arunachal from where it took off again with the civilians for Jorhat at around 2 pm, after which the aircraft went missing, said IAF spokesman Wing Commander P Sahu.
> 
> The six civilians were being ferried as part of the IAF plane's regular sortie.
> 
> An aerial search operation over the dense forests and mountains of Arunachal Pradesh bordering Bhutan where the plane might have crashed was carried out but neither the wreckage nor bodies could be located, Sahu said.
> 
> The search would resume on Wednesday and army and paramilitary personnel in the area have been put on alert.
> 
> The AN-32 is a Russian-made transport aircraft which was acquired for the Indian Air Force in the 1980s. It is considered a safe aircraft. The last crash involving an AN-32 was at Delhi in 1999.
> 
> Details are awaited.



sad news!
may God grant them peace in the after life!


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## MZUBAIR

I heard that PAF last 8 F-16 since they bought......
Comments required.


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## Imran Khan

many many times we disscus on forum bro just check or use search bar i think last month again we post detaied info abut PAF F-16 crashes.
see info here please
List being compiled


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## SummerWine

All Pak local news channels are reporting, Army's Mi-17 has crashed somewhere near Paarachanar. Four men have embraced martyrdom. Reason revealed so far is technical error and not hostile firing.

RIP


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## Muradk

Did you know that UAE AF has lost 6 block 60s up till today. All crashes because of pilots stupidity. After ejection 4 got medals for saving themselves


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## Arsalan

SummerWine said:


> All Pak local news channels are reporting, Army's Mi-17 has crashed somewhere near Paarachanar. Four men have embraced martyrdom. Reason revealed so far is technical error and not hostile firing.
> 
> RIP




*a pakistan army Mi17 helicopter have crashed on border of khaber agency and orakzai agency killing 26 soldiers on board!
the place was reported as being hostile with firing between two militants groups being reported from some days now but the PA correspondants claim that the chopper came down due to some technical faults and not because of enemy firing. the news are comming in a actual picture will be clear it the authorities want it to be in a few hours!*
one way or the other it is surely a very very sad news, may there souls rest in peace and Allah bless there families!

regards!

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## fatman17

Very sad indeed ! the costs of war !
May Allah Bless them with Jannat!
Brave souls!

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## Wingman

May their souls rest in peace


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## Skywalker

hanzo said:


> =====================
> Allah(swt) said oh who you beleive dont take Jews and christans as your allies . only munfiq take their side second Zadri is theif*(i guess if the people are theif leader would be theif)* If you beleive in Allah (swt) and his book you. you would not said that you are cherry picker when it come to Islam. May be you should go and ask army what they have done in swat and around that area go and see with yours own eyes and witness more then 2 million people ar home less (They are the Islamic army they defened civilian properties honer and lives(not). do you think bombing civilian in islam is allowed name of exteriem or terrorisim.you are not my brother. I dont support dirty deeds
> i know you will come back with soo many argument or delte it
> or may be try to ban me or call me names or tell me i dont now islam but you know what war is decpetion and munafiq has the media and lies.and these suiside bombing are done by agents who are working to make sure no islamic shria comes to that part. and if they have done so it has to be tit for tat. would still denies the first lines



If I take your criteria for a judging a theif then it means you are a theif as well and bigger munafiq then anyone else. First you have chosen zardari as president now turning your back to him.

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## Salahadin

hanzo said:


> =====================
> Allah(swt) said oh who you beleive dont take Jews and christans as your allies . only munfiq take their side second Zadri is theif(i guess if the people are theif leader would be theif) If you beleive in Allah (swt) and his book you. you would not said that you are cherry picker when it come to Islam. May be you should go and ask army what they have done in swat and around that area go and see with yours own eyes and witness more then 2 million people ar home less (They are the Islamic army they defened civilian properties honer and lives(not). do you think bombing civilian in islam is allowed name of exteriem or terrorisim.you are not my brother. I dont support dirty deeds
> i know you will come back with soo many argument or delte it
> or may be try to ban me or call me names or tell me i dont now islam but you know what war is decpetion and munafiq has the media and lies.and these suiside bombing are done by agents who are working to make sure no islamic shria comes to that part. and if they have done so it has to be tit for tat. would still denies the first lines



Man Keep your point of view to yourself no need to share this

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## sergente rehan

hanzo said:


> =====================
> Allah(swt) said oh who you beleive dont take Jews and christans as your allies . only munfiq take their side second Zadri is theif(i guess if the people are theif leader would be theif) If you beleive in Allah (swt) and his book you. you would not said that you are cherry picker when it come to Islam. May be you should go and ask army what they have done in swat and around that area go and see with yours own eyes and witness more then 2 million people ar home less (They are the Islamic army they defened civilian properties honer and lives(not). do you think bombing civilian in islam is allowed name of exteriem or terrorisim.you are not my brother. I dont support dirty deeds
> i know you will come back with soo many argument or delte it
> or may be try to ban me or call me names or tell me i dont now islam but you know what war is decpetion and munafiq has the media and lies.and these suiside bombing are done by agents who are working to make sure no islamic shria comes to that part. and if they have done so it has to be tit for tat. would still denies the first lines



Everyone has it's own point of view and in a democratic world you have to respect each other opinions. Maybe you see Army operation as a negative act but how could you defend the TTP actions? are they serving Islam? Did you ever read in the history of Islam that in any part of the world Muslim convert anybody or imposed anything using brutal force? For sure these terrorists are working against our country and Islam for the benefits of some anti-Pakistan forces, most of them are miss guided and brain washed but you simply can't defend TTP because they are working for Islam (as they claimed)

Is this Islam, Killing innocent civlians, including children and old peoples (especially Muslims)? Is hanging the deadbodies on a tree Islamic? Is blowing up schools Islamic? Is extremism Islamic? Is suicide Islamic (don't tell me yes because it's cleary said in Holy Qur'an that suicide is haram because you can't take your life that Allah has given to you, just go and read the Hadiths in which a very brave Muslim fought a Gazwa but at the and when he was severly injured he took his sword and through himself on it, the Prohet (PBUH) said that he wasn't going to Jannat even if he fought so bravely for only reason because he took his life with his own hands). During war you don't know if you are going to Martyr or be a Gazi, it's depends on the circumstances and upon Allah if he will gift you shadat (if there are few kaffir soldiers and you have only no other option then sacrifying your life for the sake of Pakistan and Islam then you are doing the right thing, it's not the same as the ideology of TTP)

A suicide bomber will never go to jannat bcz first he killed himself and then killed many innocent Muslims, he's a murderer! And the captured suicide bombers claimed that they have get training in Waziristan. Mostly after a Suicide attack Baitullah Mehsud claimed that it was his man so how do you explain that it's not TTP who's killing our people? there are also diffrent terrorist acts which has done by other foreign agencies like Lahore attack on Srilankan team etc. But what do you think from where are coming all those funds for TTP? it's always the same person who wants to destabilize Pakistan.

About Swat people it's not Army fault but of our goverment which is unable to take care of them, the Swat people didn't support TTP because they have known their true identity. Don't you see what atrocities TTP has done to them? 

I was and i'm still always against U.S.A , Israel and India unless they changed their foreign policies toward Muslim world, but this didn't mean that i'm supporting TTP! they are serving the purposes of the west, they are trying to ruine Pakistan, they are working for anti-Pakistan forces. If they want to do Jihad just go in Afghanistan, Iraq, i'll never oppose them but why in Pakistan? we are all Muslims. the only reason is because they are munafiq's, miss guided people.

I fully supported Pakistan Armed forces in this operation, we need to clear our Pure land from these munafiq's, our constitution clearly says that in Pakistan there will be nothing that goes against Qur'an and sunnah, we just need to implement it, for this we have to fight in a peacefull way like we have done for the judiciary, no need to destabilize our country.

At last how do you think these terrorists will ever be able to impose shariah as they claimed( to me it's just a total BullShit, an excuse) in the way they want? did you really think that they will take over Pakistan? do you really think a bunch of illitrate brain washed people will ever be able to run a great state like Pakistan? in this modern world do you really think that Pakistan will survive if there are TTP who's runing the state? they even aren't able to defend us if there is a fullscale war against any enemy! So wake up and watch the facts. I'm also against Zardari and i didn't vote PPP but instead of crying here against him and sympathize TTP, what have you done for your country? what ave you done for the people of Swat? what have you done for Islam? ask yourself these questions first then try to blame the Army or the others! atleast the Army is doing well his job, defending us against our enemies those who are well known and also those who are hiding among us!

I salute to our brave men and soldiers and all those civilians who have lost their lives till today in the hands of these terrorists and enemies of Pakistan and Islam.


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## Kamakazi 69

I cannot believe people like hanzo still live.
Of course everyone who says anything against his view is an 'agent', obviously.


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## Arsalan

i am happy to see the response of all you members! i am really thankfull.
that good for us that the sense is prevaling in our nation now! at one time one would have just gone fuming when we hear about a madrasa being pounded by bombs but now we understand that it is only a building if it is being used the values of islam! ! these are the people who are using the name of Islam for the cause of there godfathers sitting i indian, israel and US!

anyway i guess the discussion have gone wy off topic so i am getting over with it!

thankyou again for your response!

regards!


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## Arsalan

with all the respect i guess it is not the thread to disuss these issues! i hope you guys will be kind enough to not mind!

regards!


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## nightcrawler

arsalanaslam123 said:


> *a pakistan army Mi17 helicopter have crashed on border of khaber agency and orakzai agency killing 26 soldiers on board!
> the place was reported as being hostile with firing between two militants groups being reported from some days now but the PA correspondants claim that the chopper came down due to some technical faults and not because of enemy firing. the news are comming in a actual picture will be clear it the authorities want it to be in a few hours!*



I want to ask you that is Mi-17 is capable of transporting 26 soldiers at once? I mean this helicopter probably has been shot down by some insurgency gun fire or something equivalent. 26 soldiers I mean in a single Mi-17 this will render helicopter to fly at low altitude & be prone to enemy fire because in media I have observered that these terrorists are euipped with anti-aircraft guns enough to pull down a helicopter


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## Muradk

nightcrawler said:


> I want to ask you that is Mi-17 is capable of transporting 26 soldiers at once? I mean this helicopter probably has been shot down by some insurgency gun fire or something equivalent. 26 soldiers I mean in a single Mi-17 this will render helicopter to fly at low altitude & be prone to enemy fire because in media I have observered that these terrorists are euipped with anti-aircraft guns enough to pull down a helicopter



. The helicopter features a very high thrust-to-weight ratio pair of TVZ-117MT or TVZ-117VM shaft-turbine engines with a takeoff power of 1,900 hp. The Mi-17 is capable of single-engine flight in the event of loss of power by one engine (depending on aircraft mission weight) because of an engine load sharing system. If one engine fails, the other engines output is automatically increased to allow continued flight.
The Mi-17 is capable of carrying cargo in the cabin (including long cargo) with half-open or removed doors, external loads, or passengers (24 people). The Mi-17 can carry up to 30 troops and up to 20 wounded; it can also be used for in-flight unloading of special cargoes. The transport version of the MI-17 helicopter is intended to carry cargoes (loads) in the cargo compartment, including long-size cargo with partially- opened or removed cargo doors, external loads, or executives (up to 24 persons). Interior seats are removable for cargo carrying. The rear clamshell doors open, an internal winch facilitates loading of heavy freight. Floor has tiedown rings throughout. The aircraft carries a rescue hoist capable to 150 kg.

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## Arsalan

Muradk said:


> . The helicopter features a very high thrust-to-weight ratio pair of TVZ-117MT or TVZ-117VM shaft-turbine engines with a takeoff power of 1,900 hp. The Mi-17 is capable of single-engine flight in the event of loss of power by one engine (depending on aircraft mission weight) because of an engine load sharing system. If one engine fails, the other engines output is automatically increased to allow continued flight.
> The Mi-17 is capable of carrying cargo in the cabin (including long cargo) with half-open or removed doors, external loads, or passengers (24 people). The Mi-17 can carry up to 30 troops and up to 20 wounded; it can also be used for in-flight unloading of special cargoes. The transport version of the MI-17 helicopter is intended to carry cargoes (loads) in the cargo compartment, including long-size cargo with partially- opened or removed cargo doors, external loads, or executives (up to 24 persons). Interior seats are removable for cargo carrying. The rear clamshell doors open, an internal winch facilitates loading of heavy freight. Floor has tiedown rings throughout. The aircraft carries a rescue hoist capable to 150 kg.




so that justifies the claim by media reports about 26 troops martyred in the crash!


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## fatman17

May 7................................Pakistan AF...........................Falco UAV
crash landed near Mushaf AB, Punjab peovince, due to a technical malfunction during a routine flight.

May 29..............................Pakistan AF...........................Guizhou FT-7P
Crashed onto a house roof near Piplan, Moosa Wali, 25 miles (40km) south of Mianwali in eastern Punjab province, after the two crew, Kamran and Musharraf, had ejected safely, although one woman on the ground was killed and another six injured. the injured were taken by C-130 to hospital in Rawalpindi.


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> May 7................................Pakistan AF...........................Falco UAV
> crash landed near Mushaf AB, Punjab peovince, due to a technical malfunction during a routine flight.
> 
> May 29..............................Pakistan AF...........................Guizhou FT-7P
> Crashed onto a house roof near Piplan, Moosa Wali, 25 miles (40km) south of Mianwali in eastern Punjab province, after the two crew, Kamran and Musharraf, had ejected safely, although one woman on the ground was killed and another six injured. the injured were taken by C-130 to hospital in Rawalpindi.



thanks god that the pilots were safe. sorry about the woman and other civilians, may allah bless them!

i guess the FT-7P must be on a fighter training mission!

regards!


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## Muradk

arsalanaslam123 said:


> thanks god that the pilots were safe. sorry about the woman and other civilians, may allah bless them!
> 
> i guess the FT-7P must be on a fighter training mission!
> 
> regards!



UCAV was hit by lightning and the FT-7 recovered out of a spin and the compressor stalled, They did their best to save the house but once you go into a dive from a gliding Position Ejection is the only choice.

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## MUHAMMAD.KHURRAM.KHAN

We have to get rid of them.And try new planes.


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## Muradk

MUHAMMAD.KHURRAM.KHAN said:


> We have to get rid of them.And try new planes.



There is nothing wrong these things happen.


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## Arsalan

MUHAMMAD.KHURRAM.KHAN said:


> We have to get rid of them.And try new planes.



seems possible if Mr.Zardari is willing to sponser it from his bank accounts  ! in that case we may even get hand onto Euro Fighter 

brother that was an accident and it can happen to any plane!

regards!


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## fahadtiwana

We need newer JF-17 in large quantitites to phase out these old aging planes


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## Gin ka Pakistan

fahadtiwana said:


> We need newer JF-17 in large quantitites to phase out these old aging planes



I think PAF will have 250 JF-17 by the end of 2015


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## Imran Khan

Muradk said:


> Did you know that UAE AF has lost 6 block 60s up till today. All crashes because of pilots stupidity. After ejection 4 got medals for saving themselves



this looking to me arab minds working well now they can save themselve its great news.


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## Munir

One was by Boeing pilot...
And the plane is over the top... Even last Indian show they had 2 flat tyres during landing... That is what you get when you soup up a light fighterjet... They better could have incorporated the tech in a F15...


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## mike bennett

arsalanaslam123 said:


> *a pakistan army Mi17 helicopter have crashed on border of khaber agency and orakzai agency killing 26 soldiers on board!
> 
> Dear Forum Friends,
> 
> I have recently received news of the latest Pakistan Mi-17 loss.
> As a direct request from a visitor to my site I am slowly compiling Helicopter losses of all nations. My initial efforts have begun with the Loss of the Pakistan Mil Mi-17. The full details are still unclear.
> 
> I have tried to compile a list of losses of Pakistan Military Helicopters - the results are available at
> 
> 
> Pakistan_Helo-Losses
> 
> I know that this list is well short of the total losses but it is at least a beginning.
> As with the losses and ejections from Pakistan Military Aircraft I would like to ask Forum members if they can improve the list and add / amend details and where possible forward photos of those who were injured or made the ultimate sacrifice for their country.
> 
> With greatest respect
> 
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk*


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## mike bennett

Muradk said:


> Did you know that UAE AF has lost 6 block 60s up till today. All crashes because of pilots stupidity. After ejection 4 got medals for saving themselves



Dear Muradk,
Do you have the dates of the UAE losses - I can only find one and that was whenthe Lockheed Martin test pilot Dan Levin crashed and ejected while preparing for the 2006, 9th January Al Ain Aerobatic Show 2006.

Please take a look at the UAE page on my site
UAE

Best regards

Mike Bennett


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## Wingman

Originally Posted by Muradk View Post
Did you know that UAE AF has lost 6 block 60s up till today. All crashes because of pilots stupidity. After ejection 4 got medals for saving themselves

Wow....they got medals even flying the aircrafts

---------- Post added at 06:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Muradk View Post
Did you know that UAE AF has lost 6 block 60s up till today. All crashes because of pilots stupidity. After ejection 4 got medals for saving themselves

Wow....they got medals even flying the aircrafts


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## Muradk

mike bennett said:


> Dear Muradk,
> Do you have the dates of the UAE losses - I can only find one and that was whenthe Lockheed Martin test pilot Dan Levin crashed and ejected while preparing for the 2006, 9th January Al Ain Aerobatic Show 2006.
> 
> Please take a look at the UAE page on my site
> UAE
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Mike Bennett



Yes Mike my students are IPs in UAEAF, I am sure I can get the data.


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## fatman17

View attachment 3932


oops !!!


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 3932
> 
> 
> oops !!!



now i can not figure out what went wrong with this plane!!!
it is not crashed to peices so it must not have fallen from air, it seems that the accedient took place while the plane was on runway and if this is the case it is a thumbs up for the pilot who have so efficiently turned his plane up side down! it surely requires skill  , maybe sir Murdak can shed some light!

regards!


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## Muradk

arsalanaslam123 said:


> now i can not figure out what went wrong with this plane!!!
> it is not crashed to peices so it must not have fallen from air, it seems that the accedient took place while the plane was on runway and if this is the case it is a thumbs up for the pilot who have so efficiently turned his plane up side down! it surely requires skill  , maybe sir Murdak can shed some light!
> 
> regards!



With a mirage you dont need special skills to tumble it. With this one to much cross wind.

Now let me tell you a something about one of our ex-chiefs, While commanding 9 SQD , this cocky kid sits in the mirage and thinks will the drop tank fall while on ground and he pulled the lever both fuel tanks on the ground everyone running taking there clothes, uniforms, coveralls over the fuel, I came and said what did you, and he says Sir /i will show you he climbs into another mirage and says sir I pulled the lever like this and bang both fuel tanks on ground

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## Arsalan

Muradk said:


> With a mirage you dont need special skills to tumble it. With this one to much cross wind.
> 
> Now let me tell you a something about one of our ex-chiefs, While commanding 9 SQD , this cocky kid sits in the mirage and thinks will the drop tank fall while on ground and he pulled the lever both fuel tanks on the ground everyone running taking there clothes, uniforms, coveralls over the fuel, I came and said what did you, and he says Sir /i will show you he climbs into another mirage and says sir I pulled the lever like this and bang both fuel tanks on ground



that was really nice indeed.
but nevertheless it is these men who are flying us high!
my salute to them  

regards!


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## Muradk

arsalanaslam123 said:


> that was really nice indeed.
> but nevertheless it is these men who are flying us high!
> my salute to them
> 
> regards!



Oh thats not the only thing I ground him for a month after 1 month he is happy he is flying again takes off right rudder stuck and the throttle stuck at full power, So I come on the RT and tell him, Ok Son I want to to compensate by left rudder and land in the middle of the runway, The blody ediot actually lands in the middle of the runway now he is going like a bullet dont have much runway left goes into the Drag Shoot. I will put the photo in a sec.
Again grounded for 1 month.

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## Muradk

Muradk said:


> Oh thats not the only thing I ground him for a month after 1 month he is happy he is flying again takes off right rudder stuck and the throttle stuck at full power, So I come on the RT and tell him, Ok Son I want to to compensate by left rudder and land in the middle of the runway, The blody ediot actually lands in the middle of the runway now he is going like a bullet dont have much runway left goes into the Drag Shoot. I will put the photo in a sec.
> Again grounded for 1 month.



here you go 





[/IMG]

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## MastanKhan

Muradk said:


> Oh thats not the only thing I ground him for a month after 1 month he is happy he is flying again takes off right rudder stuck and the throttle stuck at full power, So I come on the RT and tell him, Ok Son I want to to compensate by left rudder and land in the middle of the runway, The blody ediot actually lands in the middle of the runway now he is going like a bullet dont have much runway left goes into the Drag Shoot. I will put the photo in a sec.
> Again grounded for 1 month.






Hi MuradK,

At least he was consistant---.


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## Neo

Lol......


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## Muradk

MastanKhan said:


> Hi MuradK,
> 
> At least he was consistant---.



Oh he was consistant alright, Over chaklala dark clouds I told him to climb with me through the clouds climb to 40,000ft, After the snake climb I don't see him on RT where are you Sir over the base what base AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH sir I see a lot of mig21s , you ediot you are in india get the hell out of there grounded 6 months in 3 years he flew total of 9 months Finally he became one of our best pilots and I was proud when he became the COAS.

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## Wingman

Muradk said:


> Oh he was consistant alright, Over chaklala dark clouds I told him to climb with me through the clouds climb to 40,000ft, After the snake climb I don't see him on RT where are you Sir over the base what base AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH sir I see a lot of mig21s , you ediot you are in india get the hell out of there grounded 6 months in 3 years he flew total of 9 months Finally he became one of our best pilots and I was proud when he became the COAS.



Sir,

It was really too good to quote, keep sending such memories...


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## MastanKhan

Muradk said:


> Oh he was consistant alright, Over chaklala dark clouds I told him to climb with me through the clouds climb to 40,000ft, After the snake climb I don't see him on RT where are you Sir over the base what base AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH sir I see a lot of mig21s , you ediot you are in india get the hell out of there grounded 6 months in 3 years he flew total of 9 months Finally he became one of our best pilots and I was proud when he became the COAS.





Hi Muradk,

That was hilarious---the base commander on duty in india would have been having a 'cow'---


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## Skywalker

Muradk said:


> Oh he was consistant alright, Over chaklala dark clouds I told him to climb with me through the clouds climb to 40,000ft, After the snake climb I don't see him on RT where are you Sir over the base what base AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH sir I see a lot of mig21s , you ediot you are in india get the hell out of there grounded 6 months in 3 years he flew total of 9 months Finally he became one of our best pilots and I was proud when he became the COAS.



c'mon murad sb tell us the guys name.


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## SummerWine

Sad news....a PAF fighter has crashed near Sargodha. All news channels are reporting that it was on a routine flight when it crashed, 
Sad news that pilot lost his life.....now the location is stated to be near Khushab....the plane news channels are saying was an F-16!!!!! though PAF so far has only confimed that a Jet crashed...


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## TaimiKhan

ya, very sad, looks like to be a mirage.

the pilot is also believed to have embraced martyrdom. 


May Allah rest his soul in peace and give the courage to his family to bear this huge loss. Ameen


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## Jako

May the brave son of pakistan rest in peace......


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## Arsalan

there is no news channels giving insight of what plane was it, i hope it was not F16 as we are already short of these platform!

nevertheless what is more important is that we have lost a much more valuable life, may his soul rest in peace!

regards!


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## Sam Dhanraj

taimikhan said:


> ya, very sad, looks like to be a mirage.
> 
> *the pilot is also believed to have embraced martyrdom.*
> 
> 
> May Allah rest his soul in peace and give the courage to his family to bear this huge loss. Ameen



Geo is reporting that pilot on board escaped unharmed. 

PAF plane crashes near Noorpur - GEO.tv


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## SummerWine

Sam Dhanraj said:


> Geo is reporting that pilot on board escaped unharmed.
> 
> PAF plane crashes near Noorpur - GEO.tv




Yea but it's not the latest update........unfortunately

PAF hasnt confirmed about the plane or pilot so far......


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## Skywalker

As per the animation GEO is showing it was of Mirage.


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## pakomar

i got the news a PAF plane crashed and the pilot martyred .

any info about the crashed please update us.


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## Salahadin

Pilot dies in PAF plane crash near Sargodha
Updated at: 0409 PST, Friday, July 17, 2009
SARGODHA: A jet plane of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has crashed here late on Thursday, with the pilot on board embraced martyrdom on the spot during the accident, Geo news exclusively reported.

According to PAF spokesman, the plane was on routine flight when it crashed in Noorpur near Sargodha meanwhile, the pilot lost his life during the sad mishap.

Sargodha police said, the fire broke out on the place of accident while rescue workers are in a bid to bring it under control.

According to police, the dead body of martyred PAF pilot has been recovered.

Pilot dies in PAF plane crash near Sargodha - GEO.tv


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## Patriot

RIP!! May god bless his soul!


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## Hyde

May Allah bestowe him with Jannat-ul-Firdous and give Sabr to his family and friends.

We are proud of you Oh Son of this soil, The Great Soldier of Pakistan. Indeed you have given your life for the sake of your country and we Pakistani's will always remember you with great words.

Allah Iqbal said in one of his poem: (Tariq ki dua)

Shahadat hai matlub-e-Maqsood Momin
Na Male-e-Ghaneemat Naa Kishwar-e-Kushai

(Indeed The martyrdom is the first and last desire of Mo'min (believer), Neither the wealth of this world nor the rest in palaces) Not so good in translating poetries but tireid my best.

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## brilTek

I am deeply sorrowed not for F-16, but on a loss of extremely talented pilot. He must be special as flying F 16 is not an ordinary pilot job. May Allah bless him....ameen. 

I just heard on ARY NEWS that it&#8217;s F-16. I think he tried to save F-16 till a last moment that&#8217;s why he couldn't ejected.

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## Hyde

brilTek said:


> I am deeply sorrowed not for F-16, but on a loss of extremely talented pilot. He must be special as flying F 16 is not an ordinary pilot job. May Allah bless him....ameen.
> 
> I just heard on ARY NEWS that its F-16. I think he tried to save F-16 till a last moment thats why he couldn't ejected.



probably you are right, 

this topic is being discussed in the Sticky thread as well

May Allah have his mercy upon him and give sabr to his family, relatives and friends and Grant him a house in Jannat-ul-Firdous Aameen

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## brilTek

May Allah bless the shaheed pilot.....Ameen.

I heard on ARY NEWS its F-16. Probably he tried to save it till last moment thats why couldn't ejected. 

As Mr. X said, "We are proud of you". The whole naiton salutes your act of bravery, patriotism & self sacrifice to save the plane. ahh

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## S-2

Rest in peace to this pilot and may his friends and family find solace in God.


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## fatman17

very sad news on the loss of life of the pilot!
May God Bless him with Jannat!

the a/c can always be replaced but not the pilot!


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## QADRI

brilTek said:


> I am deeply sorrowed not for F-16, but on a loss of extremely talented pilot. He must be special as flying F 16 is not an ordinary pilot job. May Allah bless him....ameen.
> 
> I just heard on ARY NEWS that its F-16. I think he tried to save F-16 till a last moment thats why he couldn't ejected.



Sir there is no confirm news of F-16 crash. According to GEO that was Mirage but still not confirm.


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## flaming arrow

May he rest in peace,god to give strength to his family.


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## air marshal

Sad and shocking news indeed. S/L Saud embraced shahadat. May Allah rest his soul in peac, ameen.


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## notsuperstitious

Rest in peace.

Any confirmation on the make of the aircraft?


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## xebex

May he RIP.


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## paritosh

may he RIP...


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## sonicboom

PAF plane crashes near Sargodha 
Updated at: 0300 PST, Friday, July 17, 2009 
SARGODHA: A jet plane of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has crashed here late on Thursday, with the pilot on board *escaped unharmed *during the accident, Geo news exclusively reported.

According to PAF spokesman, the plane was on routine flight when it crashed in Noorpur near Sargodha but the pilot remained unharmed.

Sargodha police said, the fire broke out on the place of accident while rescue workers are in a bid to bring it under control.

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## aimarraul

brilTek said:


> I am deeply sorrowed not for F-16, but on a loss of extremely talented pilot. He must be special as flying F 16 is not an ordinary pilot job. May Allah bless him....ameen.
> 
> I just heard on ARY NEWS that its F-16. I think he tried to save F-16 till a last moment thats why he couldn't ejected.



this sad incident reminds me of a chinese pilot who sacrificed his life to save civilians&#65292;the best pilots won't give up trying till the last moment,they are the true heroes.


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## x_man

The aircraft was F-16A; pilot was Squadron Leader Saud who was flying a routine night strike sortie. Aircraft was declared overdue as it did not recover back at the time it was supposed to. Later on wreckage was found close to Nurpur with pilot still strapped to seat. Saud received fatal injuries due to impact &#8230;.God bless his soul and he may RIP.

How events unfolded, it is assumed that Saud suffered from night disorientation. But it is still speculation and further detailed inquiry will tell that what and how it happened. This crash brings total PAFs F-16 losses to 9. Last viper to go down was in 1994 when it suffered a bird hit just after take off and the pilot ejected.

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## EagleEyes

God bless his soul. There isn't a better person in this world who dies in the services of his nation.

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## Muradk

x_man said:


> The aircraft was F-16A; pilot was Squadron Leader Saud who was flying a routine night strike sortie. Aircraft was declared overdue as it did not recover back at the time it was supposed to. Later on wreckage was found close to Nurpur with pilot still strapped to seat. Saud received fatal injuries due to impact .God bless his soul and he may RIP.
> 
> How events unfolded, it is assumed that Saud suffered from night disorientation. But it is still speculation and further detailed inquiry will tell that what and how it happened. This crash brings total PAFs F-16 losses to 9. Last viper to go down was in 1995 when it suffered a bird hit just after take off and the pilot ejected.



I just had a long talk with Paarach, about a min ago and got the details its really sad. God bless the Kid.

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## MZUBAIR

AoA Guys,

This is very sad news that we have lost pilot in jet crash near Sargodha.

Today I read another news in "nawaiwaqt" news paper that PAF plan crashed near khushaab and pilot was safe.

"nawaiwaqt" is one of Pakistan's respected and reputed newspaper.

I am quoting reference

_Look at the left bottom of "Gillani and Manmohan photo", its clearly written that pilot was safe._

*Nawai waqt E-Paper*

Too many plane crashes, Last month I heard P7 trainer was crashed.


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## courageneverdies

May he enjoy among the rest of our great martyres.

Shaheed ki jo maut ha,
wo qaum ki hyat ha,

Kit Over n Out


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## Arsalan

different sources are reporting it differently, anyway for your review:

*GEO TV*


> PAF plane crashes near Sargodha
> Updated at: 0044 PST, Friday, July 17, 2009
> SARGODHA: A jet plane of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has crashed here late on Thursday, with the *pilot on board escaped unharmed *during the accident, Geo news exclusively reported.
> 
> According to PAF spokesman, the plane was on routine flight when it *crashed in Noorpur near Sargodha* but the pilot remained unharmed.
> 
> Sargodha police said, the fire broke out on the place of accident while rescue workers are in a bid to bring it under control.
> PAF plane crashes near Sargodha - GEO.tv



*THE ARYNEWS*


> KHOSHAB: *F-16 aircraft *of Pakistan Air Force was *crashed in Khoshab *in which the *pilot was also martyred.*
> 
> The aircraft went down in Moza Awanwala in the vicinity of Khoshab, preliminary reports said.
> 
> PAF F-16 was on a routine flight when it was crashed and the pilot of the aircraft was also killed in the crash.
> PAF F-16 crashes in Khoshab,7/17/2009 12:31:10 PM



*THE NATION*


> *F-16 aircraft of Pakistan Air Force *was crashed in *Khoshab* in which the *pilot was also martyred*. The aircraft went down in Moza Awanwala in the vicinity of Khoshab, preliminary reports said. PAF F-16 was on a routine flight when it was crashed and the pilot of the aircraft was also killed in the crash.
> PAF F-16 crashes in Khoshab | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



so we cannot still have a cleear picture of the accident, which aircraft it was, what about the pilot and where did it crashed??
i guess it was an F16 as no other plane has been reported but the fate of pilot and place of crash are still causng confusion
i hope some one from within PAF can come up with the real news!! 
*Sir. MurdaK* i think you can help us in this matter!

regards!


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## Arsalan

with all the respect can i ask what is this thread doing here, i mean dont we already have one to discuss these things:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3718-notify-aircraft-crashes-24.html

where are you Mr.Penguin???


MODs kindly merge the thread!

regards!


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## duhastmish

a sad news indeed. if he did - there cant be a better death than to die for a reason such as your country. god speed.


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## Neo

God bless his soul.


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## Neo

*Thread merged.*


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## Wingman

Muradk said:


> I just had a long talk with Paarach, about a min ago and got the details its really sad. God bless the Kid.



It was 11:00 pm, I saw almost 10 F-16s took off. The first 9 took off in brief intervals but the last one took off rather late probably at 11:25 pm. It was around 12:45 pm I saw breaking news of the crash. I phoned PAF Hospital got confirmed about the sad demise of S/L Saud, may his soul rest in peace......

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## abdulrafi

http://www.f-16.net/news_article3631.html


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## wangrong

07/14 J7G china
07/15 F5F china taiwan
07/16 F16 Pakistan 







my god


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## SSGPA1

F-16.net is reporting that a PAF F-16 crashed. Can someone confirm please?

According to a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) spokesman, the plane was on routine night training mission when it crashed close to village of NurPur, 105km south west of Sargodha.

Sargodha police said, fire broke out at the accident site, while rescue workers are making all efforts to bring it under control. According to police, the pilots body now identified as Squadron Leader Saud Ghulam Nabi has been recovered from the wreckage.

A board of enquiry has been setup to investigate the cause of the accident.

The last F-16 lost by the PAF was back in 1994, also in the vicinity of Sargodha.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article3631.html


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## blain2

Yes we have lost an F-16A. This is the first loss of an F-16 after 15 years of flying without any such incidents. Indeed an immense loss due to the fact that a very top-notch pilot and such an expensive asset were met with this accident.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

The first thing which comes to your mind is that, the pilot should have saved his life not the F-16 but being a Muslims we all know life and death is in Allahs hand so it was his time to go. 
Some time you take risk and succeed and some time you don&#8217;t. I have a example my brother when he was cadet was flying his T-37 and got lost in the air in thick clouds and when the air controller put him on the right path it was too late as he had no fuel left and his I P radio him to eject, so at the final stage before the ejection he took the plane to maximum height and lucky saw Kamra&#8217;s runway and took the chance to do crash landing and made safely, the ground crew found only fumes and no fuel in the plane tanks, so at that day he took the risk of crash landing and Allah saved him. Later during High Mark he got ejected in A-5 on the runway and lived even though first few hours of ejection he was fighting for his life but finally survived, even with every thing broken in his body.

In Canada I was on the highway near the air port and a Air France crashed because of bad weather and I saw the plane on fire and the passengers running for the highway and by the look of it no one could have imagined that every one in the plane have survived but they did, it was a miracle to me and made my believe more stronger in "life and death is in Allah&#8217;s hand".

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## SSGPA1

May Allah bless S/L Saud's soul. Do we know his GDP course number. I think it will 96th or 97th.


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## Arsalan

so it is a confire=med news that it was an F16! much worst is the news that we have lost a valuable life in the accident! may his soul rest in peace!

by the way how many F16s are we left with now?i guess it is 41!

regards!


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## Sargodhian_Eagle

arsalanaslam123 said:


> so it is a confire=med news that it was an F16! much worst is the news that we have lost a valuable life in the accident! may his soul rest in peace!
> 
> by the way how many F16s are we left with now?i guess it is 41!
> 
> regards!



We had 34 F-16s already but USA granted us 10 refurbshed F-16s in 2008 so this number went on 44 but now we have 43 left.


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## Sargodhian_Eagle

Both losses r huge. A pilot is aquired after many years so its unrecoverable loss for PAF.
Secndly F-16s r frnt line line fighters for PAF n these r less in number so its great loss for PAF.


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## Myth_buster_1

arsalanaslam123 said:


> so it is a confire=med news that it was an F16! much worst is the news that we have lost a valuable life in the accident! may his soul rest in peace!
> 
> by the way how many F16s are we left with now?i guess it is 41!
> 
> regards!




PAF had 32 F-16s... 2 + 12 = 48


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## mean_bird

May God bless the departed martyr's soul




Sargodhian_Eagle said:


> We had 34 F-16s already but USA granted us 10 refurbshed F-16s in 2008 so this number went on 44 but now we have 43 left.



IIRC, we had 32 and US provided 14 of our originally purchased aircrafts making it 46. Now one lost so that makes it 45. 2 or 4 ( I dont remember, but I think it is 4) of them are in USA to undergo MLU feasibility so we have 41/43 in Pakistan.


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## TOPGUN

Very sad news may Allah bless his soul in peace ! and also we are one less f-16!


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## blain2

mean_bird said:


> May God bless the departed martyr's soul
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IIRC, we had 32 and US provided 14 of our originally purchased aircrafts making it 46. Now one lost so that makes it 45. 2 or 4 ( I dont remember, but I think it is 4) of them are in USA to undergo MLU feasibility so we have 41/43 in Pakistan.



I believe we may be able to get another F-16 as attrition replacement from the US given the relations. Although the loss of pilot can not be made up, I am hopeful that the US side will understand the need to make up attrition losses.


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## jalip

US fighter jet crashes in Afghanistan its F 15E 2 pilots dead
US fighter jet crashes in Afghanistan; 2 crew dead


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## fatman17

PAF jet crashes, pilot killed

ISLAMABAD: The pilot of a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter aircraft was killed when his jet crashed due to a technical fault during a routine training mission near Sargodha, according to a PAF statement on Friday. *&#8220;The PAF reports that a fighter aircraft, while on a routine night-training mission, crashed close to Nurpur village, 105km southwest of Sargodha. The pilot of the aircraft Squadron Leader Saud Ghulam Nabi was killed,&#8221;* it said. 

staff report 

no mention of the a/c type in the airforce statement!


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## mean_bird

blain2 said:


> I believe we may be able to get another F-16 as attrition replacement from the US given the relations. Although the loss of pilot can not be made up, I am hopeful that the US side will understand the need to make up attrition losses.




I hope so. More importantly, we should get our original 14 F-16s that are with the USN.


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## duhastmish

Althought f-16 is lost , but the life is way more inportant than the plane itself. 

Its a rare phenomena to hear about f-16 crashes, with the number of years it has gone through.

can somebody tell me how many f-16 pakistan have lost till now ? 

-- most of all god bless the soul of this pilot.


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## Skywalker

duhastmish said:


> Althought f-16 is lost , but the life is way more inportant than the plane itself.
> 
> Its a rare phenomena to hear about f-16 crashes, with the number of years it has gone through.
> 
> can somebody tell me how many f-16 pakistan have lost till now ?
> 
> -- most of all god bless the soul of this pilot.



Altogether 9 since the induction in 1983.


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## Kamakazi 69

Hmmm..... I was wondering, was this pilot near a densely populated area and thus trying his best to minimize collateral or believe he could wrestle the plane back to base that he didn't eject or were other factors at pay here.

Whatever the reason, we have lost a fine fighter pilot.


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## Enigma SIG

any official statement as to how the accident took place...?


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## Arsalan

Imran2006g said:


> any official statement as to how the accident took place...?



*"technical fault"* as they are calling it!
no details are available and dont expect that they would be made public anytime soon, anyway some person from inside the air force can some up with details but i dont think it will be wise to un cover the real story!

regards!


----------



## SummerWine

jalip said:


> US fighter jet crashes in Afghanistan its F 15E 2 pilots dead
> US fighter jet crashes in Afghanistan; 2 crew dead



U.S. fighter jet crashes in Afghanistan - 2 killed





CLOSE [X] The F-15E crash brings coalition deaths to 50 in July. That includes 26 Americans.



KABUL, Afghanistan &#8212; An American fighter jet crashed today in eastern Afghanistan, killing the two-man crew, U.S. military officials said.

The crash of the F-15E came amid what has already proven the deadliest month for Western troops in the course of the nearly 8-year-old Afghanistan conflict.

At least 50 coalition service members, including 26 Americans, have been killed so far in July. The highest previous monthly tally for Western troop fatalities in Afghanistan was 46.

American military officials have said the ongoing buildup of U.S. troops, together with a push into some previously insurgent-controlled areas, is likely to exact a rising casualty toll in coming months.

The forces of Britain and Canada, two crucial allies in the NATO coalition, have also seen a spike in fatalities this month, which has set off wrenching domestic debate in both countries about the effectiveness of Western war strategy in Afghanistan.

The cause of the jet's crash was being investigated, but military authorities said they have already ruled out the possibility that it was shot down.

"The crash was not due to hostile fire," U.S. forces in Afghanistan said in a statement

Afghan officials in Ghazni province said American troops had sealed off the crash scene.

The fighter jet, known as a Strike Eagle, is a modified version of the supersonic F-15E. It is often used to provide "close air support" &#8212; that is, to hit ground targets during combat operations.

However, U.S. military officials said they were not aware of any clashes in Ghazni at the time of the crash, which occurred at about 3:15 a.m. local time.

The military did not disclose what the fighter jet's mission was, other than that it was "conducting coalition operations."

Insurgents in Afghanistan on rare occasions have been able to bring down helicopters, but there is no known instance of them shooting down a fighter plane. Even losses of such sophisticated craft due to weather or mechanical failure are rare.

A crash last week of a helicopter carrying private military contractors in Helmand province, in Afghanistan's south, is under investigation. All six of those aboard that chopper, identified as Ukrainian nationals, were killed.

The Moldovan contractor said the helicopter was shot down, and the Taliban claimed responsibility. Helmand this month has been the scene of a wide-ranging offensive spearheaded by U.S. and British forces.

Eastern Afghanistan, where the fighter jet crashed, has also been a trouble spot for much of the summer. It borders Pakistan's volatile tribal areas, where Pakistan's military has been carrying out off-and-on operations against the Taliban in recent weeks.

A concerted campaign of missile attacks by unmanned U.S. drones in the tribal areas has also targeted militant commanders linked to the Taliban and Al Qaeda. The Taliban use the tribal areas as a springboard for attacks on Western troops across the border in Afghanistan.

Earlier this month, a U.S. serviceman went missing from a base in eastern Afghanistan. The American military has said he was presumed captured, and the Taliban claim to be holding him


----------



## F-16.Net

Note, the above photo of the busted up F-15E is from an incident that took place a RAF Lakenheath a few years back.

The jet in question was from Seymour Johnson Air Force Base. Makes it from either 335th or 336th FS.


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## Interceptor

blain2 said:


> I believe we may be able to get another F-16 as attrition replacement from the US given the relations. Although the loss of pilot can not be made up, I am hopeful that the US side will understand the need to make up attrition losses.



How much is a pilot worth in money in regards of training and extra, I remember that a PIA pilot is worth some $2 million in training.

Condolences for the tragic loss, we remember him as a Shaheed he will continue to serve us by other means.


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## BATMAN

suddenly the frequecy of mishaps has been increased.
last time we lost many highly trained commandos and officers in a helicopter crash and now even F-16 started to have accidents?
Can the reason behind be political appointments or cuts in defence budget?
We know F-16 survived the worst part of embargo...now we should have no issues in this direction.


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## Muradk

Interceptor said:


> How much is a pilot worth in money in regards of training and extra, I remember that a PIA pilot is worth some $2 million in training.
> 
> Condolences for the tragic loss, we remember him as a Shaheed he will continue to serve us by other means.



You can never ever put a price on a soldier. Yes there is a price tag for training even if we spend 5 million $$on him in one night when you all sleep he is guarding Pakistan, he has repaid Pakistan 100 folds.

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## oct605032048

sorry to hear the loss of Pakistan Air Force and God bless the pilot.


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## Arsalan

and now a chines military aircraft is reported crashed in bejing! no reports on the make of the plane but it is being said on the news channels that a hines aircraft went down killing both pilots!

feel really sorry for them!
i think someone from the chines origin give some details as it will be reported more in detail on there media!

regards!


----------



## TaimiKhan

BATMAN said:


> suddenly the frequecy of mishaps has been increased.
> last time we lost many highly trained commandos and officers in a helicopter crash and now even F-16 started to have accidents?
> Can the reason behind be political appointments or cuts in defence budget?
> We know F-16 survived the worst part of embargo...now we should have no issues in this direction.




Well as far the crashes of helicopters are concerned, that's mostly due to the load of work being done by them. Since last few years, army aviation has been used to a maximum, so wear and tear happens, which result in mishaps. Some have been contributed to pilot error also. The recent Mi-17 in orakzai was due to pilot error and ground fire both. 

As for F-16, during the embargo time period, our F-16s were flying at a very low pace due to the spare parts situation. Since, the induction of new F-16s and availability of spare parts i guess they are flying them regularly, which increases the chances of accidents. Plus, an inquiry has to be conducted, for the reason of this mishap.


----------



## ironman

*Military jet crashes in China, killing both pilots ​*13:25 19/07/2009

MOSCOW, July 19 (RIA Novosti) - A Chinese military plane crashed on Sunday during preparations for counter-terrorism exercises with Russia, killing both pilots, a source in Russia's Defense Ministry said.

China's official Xinhua news agency reported earlier in the day that a fighter-bomber of the Chinese Air Force had crashed while flying over the Taonan tactical training base in the Jilin province.

The plane was to be involved in the Peace Mission 2009 exercises, scheduled to begin on July 22.

"According to our information, the pilots of the plane that crashed at the scene of joint Russian-Chinese exercises have died. This incident will not affect preparations for the drills," the source said.

About 3,000 troops, 300 armored vehicles, and over 40 aircraft and helicopters will be involved in the Russian-Chinese anti-terrorism exercises, which will take place in the two countries on July 22-26.

The first stage of the exercises - military and political consultations - will be held in Khabarovsk in Russia's Far East, and the second and third phases will take place at the Taonan proving ground outside Baichen in northeast China.

The first Peace Mission exercises were held in Russia and the eastern Chinese province of Shandong in August 2005, involving warships, aircraft and over 10,000 service personnel including naval infantry and paratroopers.


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## Arsalan

ironman said:


> *Military jet crashes in China, killing both pilots ​*13:25 19/07/2009
> 
> MOSCOW, July 19 (RIA Novosti) - A Chinese military plane crashed on Sunday during preparations for counter-terrorism exercises with Russia, killing both pilots, a source in Russia's Defense Ministry said.
> 
> China's official Xinhua news agency reported earlier in the day that a fighter-bomber of the Chinese Air Force had crashed while flying over the Taonan tactical training base in the Jilin province.
> 
> The plane was to be involved in the Peace Mission 2009 exercises, scheduled to begin on July 22.
> 
> "According to our information, the pilots of the plane that crashed at the scene of joint Russian-Chinese exercises have died. This incident will not affect preparations for the drills," the source said.
> 
> About 3,000 troops, 300 armored vehicles, and over 40 aircraft and helicopters will be involved in the Russian-Chinese anti-terrorism exercises, which will take place in the two countries on July 22-26.
> 
> The first stage of the exercises - military and political consultations - will be held in Khabarovsk in Russia's Far East, and the second and third phases will take place at the Taonan proving ground outside Baichen in northeast China.
> 
> The first Peace Mission exercises were held in Russia and the eastern Chinese province of Shandong in August 2005, involving warships, aircraft and over 10,000 service personnel including naval infantry and paratroopers.




prephaps a J8 i guess!!


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## ejaz007

My condolences to the family of the pilot. PAF lost a brave son.


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## Murshad

It is an irrecoverable loss for Shaheeds family. May God give them strength to pass through this.


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## wangrong

arsalanaslam123 said:


> prephaps a J8 i guess!!




*JH7*

Chinese troops in joint exercises with the Russian "Peace Mission-2009" losses: at the second joint training of forces of two countries' troops crashed two military aircraft, both pilots were killed. The statement was made by an informed military source. 

"Chinese Air Force plane in the performance of the flight to attack ground targets at a height of approximately 200 meters, lost speed, down to the wing, fell to the ground and exploded. The two pilots - Air Force PLA officers, were killed," - said the source. 

According to preliminary estimates, the cause of the disaster was a "pilot error".


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## Arsalan

wangrong said:


> *JH7*
> 
> Chinese troops in joint exercises with the Russian "Peace Mission-2009" losses: at the second joint training of forces of two countries' troops crashed two military aircraft, both pilots were killed. The statement was made by an informed military source.
> 
> "Chinese Air Force plane in the performance of the flight to attack ground targets at a height of approximately 200 meters, lost speed, down to the wing, fell to the ground and exploded. The two pilots - Air Force PLA officers, were killed," - said the source.
> 
> According to preliminary estimates, the cause of the disaster was a "pilot error".



bad loss for the country and the families of the pilots! may god help them out of this difficult phase of lofa and bless the pilots!

regards!


----------



## mike bennett

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> The first thing which comes to your mind is that, the pilot should have saved his life not the F-16 but being a Muslims we all know life and death is in Allahs hand so it was his time to go.
> Some time you take risk and succeed and some time you dont. I have a example my brother when he was cadet was flying his T-37 and got lost in the air in thick clouds and when the air controller put him on the right path it was too late as he had no fuel left and his I P radio him to eject, so at the final stage before the ejection he took the plane to maximum height and lucky saw Kamras runway and took the chance to do crash landing and made safely, the ground crew found only fumes and no fuel in the plane tanks, so at that day he took the risk of crash landing and Allah saved him. Later during High Mark he got ejected in A-5 on the runway and lived even though first few hours of ejection he was fighting for his life but finally survived, even with every thing broken in his body.
> 
> In Canada I was on the highway near the air port and a Air France crashed because of bad weather and I saw the plane on fire and the passengers running for the highway and by the look of it no one could have imagined that every one in the plane have survived but they did, it was a miracle to me and made my believe more stronger in "life and death is in Allahs hand".



Dear Forum Member,

I note that you mention two ejections concerning your brother. With the greatest respect will you be able to give further details of the mishaps. I would also be honoured to add his details, and phot if possible, to my web site at www.ejection-history.org.uk if this is OK with you and your family.
You can either contact me through the forum or if you prefer to email me privately at mbenshar@aol.com
Thank you for reading this request

Regards

Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk


----------



## mike bennett

Skywalker said:


> Altogether 9 since the induction in 1983.



I have a list of the F-16 losses at
List being compiled
If it has any errors PLEASE can forum members let me know. Also - if Forum members can add any details of the mishap or of the pilot, possibly a photograph. I will be very grateful.

With respect

Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Munir

Just delivered and then...

Israeli fighter jet crashes in Colombia; Israeli pilots escape unharmed 

An Israeli Kfir-type fighter jet, which was purchased by the Colombian air force, crashed Monday on the coast of the city of Cartagena. 

The two Israeli pilots who were flying the plane escaped unharmed, but the aircraft itself was completely destroyed.


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## mean_bird

Saud Ghulam Nabi, the pilot who was martyred in the recent F-16 plane crash.
(from ImranD@pakdef)


RIP. May God forgive the departed soul and give his family the fortitude to bear this loss.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SQ8

I heard it was CFIT.


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## Arsalan

hmm but now we have the pic!!

it will be nice to go through the whole story provided that Sir. Munir can give us a link to it!

regards!


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## Muradk

I will rescan the whole article again.


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## fatman17

santro said:


> I heard it was CFIT.



yes same here!


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## Muradk

fatman17 said:


> yes same here!



Yar CFIT Checklist incidence is a broad checklist the Falcon could have 100 things wrong which come in the CFIT range.


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## SQ8

Unlike the Indians, not only do you not have the cash for it, even if you did, nobody wants to sell you anything except the chinese.. or maybe the french.


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## Arsalan

santro said:


> Unlike the Indians, not only do you not have the cash for it, even if you did, nobody wants to sell you anything except the chinese.. or maybe the french.



and this statement comes in response to ?????   

i dont see anything relevant to this being discussed here! can you point out if there is one!

regards!


----------



## SQ8

arsalanaslam123 said:


> and this statement comes in response to ?????
> 
> i dont see anything relevant to this being discussed here! can you point out if there is one!
> 
> regards!



Yup.. ur right.. my bad.. was window hopping.. must have replied it wrong.. Funny thing is.. I dont remember where I was going to write this


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## Arsalan

santro said:


> Yup.. ur right.. my bad.. was window hopping.. must have replied it wrong.. Funny thing is.. I dont remember where I was going to write this



 this didnt came to my mind otherwise i would not have asked for the question,, but you really confused me !

ayways thankyou for clearing it!


regards!


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## Muradk

Here you go thye full artcile by Late Sqn Ldr Saud.

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## Jabar 1

Muradk said:


> Here you go thye full artcile by Late Sqn Ldr Saud.



DAD from what I see in his profile a lot of experience in emergency recovers. This means it was not the pilot but something wrong with the plane. A pilot of his caliber and seniority could not have a CFIT problem. If he had a problem why didn't he call a Mayday? He could have told GCI or ATC about his emergency.


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## shehbazi2001

Muradk said:


> Here you go thye full artcile by Late Sqn Ldr Saud.



Sqn Ldr Saud has written a good article and the point is important. 
The aircraft shown with S/L Saud is a Mirage-2000 whereas I guess he must have flown Mirage-III or V. In the second case, the pilot flew F-7PG and the picture shown is of F-7P. However, thanks for the articles.


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## x_man

Few more of Sqdn Ldr Saud from the album. A true gentleman, a top fighter pilot, a husband, a father and now a Shaheed. God bless his soul.


Centre, with airforce buddies.


9 squadron


left


Sitting extreme right.

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## fatman17

God Bless his soul - he was a Brave fighter pilot !


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## Arsalan

yes, indeed!
but the actual reason of the crash still is a mystery and i guess it is to remain so for ever!
but whatever the reason would have been, it realy was a huge loss!

regards!


----------



## Wingman

shehbazi2001 said:


> Sqn Ldr Saud has written a good article and the point is important.
> The aircraft shown with S/L Saud is a Mirage-2000 whereas I guess he must have flown Mirage-III or V. In the second case, the pilot flew F-7PG and the picture shown is of F-7P. However, thanks for the articles.



Talk to Flight Safety Directorate, why they showed pictures of Mirage 2000 and F-7.

We should not go in such details, just read the articles.... I really Miss Saud Sb, though I never met him but his memories will remain in my heart and mind forever


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## ejaz007

*PAF F-16 crashes near Sargodha *

July 17, 2009 (by Asif Shamim) - An F-16 from the Pakistan Air Force has crashed in the vicinity of Khosab on Thursday. The pilot was killed. 

According to a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) spokesman, the plane was on routine night training mission when it crashed close to village of NurPur, 105km south west of Sargodha.

Sargodha police said, fire broke out at the accident site, while rescue workers are making all efforts to bring it under control. According to police, the pilots body now identified as Squadron Leader Saud Ghulam Nabi has been recovered from the wreckage.

A board of inquiry has been setup to investigate the cause of the accident.

The last F-16 lost by the PAF was back in 1994, also in the vicinity of Sargodha. 

http://www.f-16.net/news_article3631.html


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## Coolyo

Ina Lillahi Wa Ina Lillah!

May Saud Ghulam Nabi rest in peace, and all those righteous men/women who have died for this great nation, Ameen!


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## TaimiKhan

ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force pilot was killed on Wednesday as his aircraft crashed in Attock, the PAF reported.

The aircraft crashed while on a routine training mission and was being flown by Flight Lieutenant Shahryar Nisar

No loss of civilian life or property has been reported on ground.

The PAF says its Air Headquarters have ordered a board of inquiry to determine the cause of accident. &#8212; DawnNews


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## Patriot

RIP! May god bless his soul.


----------



## fatman17

taimikhan said:


> ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force pilot was killed on Wednesday as his aircraft crashed in Attock, the PAF reported.
> 
> The aircraft crashed while on a routine training mission and was being flown by Flight Lieutenant Shahryar Nisar
> 
> No loss of civilian life or property has been reported on ground.
> 
> The PAF says its Air Headquarters have ordered a board of inquiry to determine the cause of accident.  DawnNews



very sad news about the pilot!
may Allah Bless his soul!

---------- Post added at 11:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------

^ do we know the a/c type!


----------



## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> very sad news about the pilot!
> may Allah Bless his soul!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------
> 
> ^ do we know the a/c type!



Nops sir, not for the time being, but attock has seen mostly mirages & F-7 crashes in the past. My guess anyone of these. 

But a more informed source would be more helpful.


----------



## fatman17

Islamabad - A Pakistan Air Force jet fighter crashed Wednesday near the north-western town of Attock, killing the pilot, the military said. 

*The Chinese-built F-7 aircraft* was on a routine training mission when it went down in a field after apparently suffering a technical failure, air force spokesman Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said. 

No one on the ground was injured. 

An inquiry was begun into the cause of the accident.


----------



## moha199

fatman17 said:


> Islamabad - A Pakistan Air Force jet fighter crashed Wednesday near the north-western town of Attock, killing the pilot, the military said.
> 
> *The Chinese-built F-7 aircraft* was on a routine training mission when it went down in a field after apparently suffering a technical failure, air force spokesman Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said.
> 
> No one on the ground was injured.
> 
> An inquiry was begun into the cause of the accident.


 We need JF17 ASAP to replace this jet

---------- Post added at 01:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 AM ----------

May Allah grant him peace Amin

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## kiuppal

Inna lillahi wa inna elaihe rajioon

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## air marshal

May the departed soul rest in peace and may Allah bless him, ameen!


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## mike bennett

Sad news about Flight Lieutenant Shahryar Nisar.

I have added his loss to the known F-7 mishaps in the service of the PAF
Pakistan_F-7P



With respect

Mike Bennett


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## SQ8

The guys best friend and course mate is my best friends brother. Flt Arslan Nadeem, and he is shattered right now. And I met Flt lt Shahryar twice.. cheerful guy.


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## Murshad

God bless shaheeds soul and give strength to all around him to pass through this difficult time.


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## BATMAN

Loosing an officer... is indeed a great loss for the nation.
Very sad occasion, my condolences to the nation of Pakistan.

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## ejaz007

Indeed a trajic loss. May Allah bless the departed soul.


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## Wingman

Great Loss, may his soul rest in peace


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## Arsalan

well a sad news,,,
our bird are going down fast in the recent past now,,,
i wish we can replace them quickly now!!!

may the pilots souls rest in peace!


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## SQ8

The reason is the new chiefs increase in night time missions(multiple sorties per mission), both Flt Saud and Shehriar went down due to disorientation.


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## Arsalan

santro said:


> The reason is the new chiefs increase in night time missions(multiple sorties per mission), both Flt Saud and Shehriar went down due to disorientation.


may well be the case but i dont think that it is an excuse!
i mean not an error on part of pilots but the aircrafts themselves are bit too old to tackle such situations.
i will like to repeat my point by saying that we need to replace them fast! with the JF17 production off n running i hope we can do it quickly!!

regards!


----------



## SQ8

Unfortunately.. this isn't just a matter of "make it so". 
The aircraft being old is a factor, but pilot fatigue and disorientation are not something connected to the aircraft.Case in point are USAF eagles going CFIT even with all their advanced upgrades.
Take pride in the fact that while these losses are regrettable it also means our pilots are gaining a lot of night time combat practice, bearing in mind that our most likely aggressor is most likely to launch a surprise attack if it does so at this time.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

RIP to him and may Allah bless his soul and help comfort his family and loved ones.


RIP to all martyrs --- sons and daughters of Pakistan.


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## Arsalan

santro said:


> Unfortunately.. this isn't just a matter of "make it so".
> The aircraft being old is a factor, but pilot fatigue and disorientation are not something connected to the aircraft.Case in point are USAF eagles going CFIT even with all their advanced upgrades.
> Take pride in the fact that while these losses are regrettable it also means our pilots are gaining a lot of night time combat practice, bearing in mind that our most likely aggressor is most likely to launch a surprise attack if it does so at this time.


agreed that night time combate training is going for good but at the cost of plane and pilots it dont bring much of a prize. 
i agree that the crash rate may not be as high as some other planes but still we can not neglect the fact that we are now so often hearing such sad news! i guess it is some fourth ime in past two mosnts with a trainer, a F16, a mirage and now a F7 going down!! with the pilots suffering in almost all the accidents.nw this is not doing us much good.
i hope you understand my point and are of the same view!

regards!


----------



## SQ8

I agree on the regrettable losses, but the solution you propose is sadly time consuming and very restrictive.. yet it is the only one.


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## Muradk

arsalanaslam123 said:


> agreed that night time combate training is going for good but at the cost of plane and pilots it dont bring much of a prize.
> i agree that the crash rate may not be as high as some other planes but still we can not neglect the fact that we are now so often hearing such sad news! i guess it is some fourth ime in past two mosnts with a trainer, a F16, a mirage and now a F7 going down!! with the pilots suffering in almost all the accidents.nw this is not doing us much good.
> i hope you understand my point and are of the same view!
> 
> regards!



There is nothing wrong with the fighter 99% it is the pilot who makes a blunder. They have been taught since PFT about DS and Instrument flying but sometimes they forget which leads to their death and a loss of a fighter.


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## greatsequence

*Pilot dies as Russia jets collide*

Two Russian fighter jets have collided while training for an air show near Moscow, killing one pilot and injuring at least five people on the ground.
Two pilots from the elite Russian Knights aerobatic team parachuted to safety, but a third, the group's commander, did not survive.
One woman suffered burns and at least four other people were injured as one jet struck houses near the airfield.
Initial reports say that pilot error caused the crash of the two Su-27 jets.
Air force spokesman Lt Col Vladimir Drik said the fighters collided near Zhukhovsky airfield, east of Moscow, where they were preparing for the Maks 2009 aerospace exhibition, due to start on Tuesday.
The dead pilot was named as Russian Knights' commander Igor Tkachenko, 45, a decorated air force colonel.
Russia's entire fleet of Su-27 jets was grounded earlier this year after two crashes in three days, the Associated Press news agency reported.

BBC NEWS | Europe | Pilot dies as Russia jets collide


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## Arsalan

*originally posted by Mr. PakShaeen!*
i guess this is thr right place to report it,


> GUJRANWALA: Pakistan Army aircraft on training flight crashed in Solki Chattha area near Gujranwala.
> 
> According to reports, a pilot was pulled out from the plane in a critical condition succumbed to injuries later.
> 
> It was an Army Aviation aircraft Mashak, which was destroyed during training flight.
> 
> Relief and rescue teams reached at the site of the crash after the incident.
> 
> Army aircraft crashes near Gujranwala
> 
> Do PA uses Mushaks or it is again out media messing up defense affairs??



kindly dont take it as offensive, just a friendly advice and request to put the right things in right place!!

regards!


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## Muradk

PAKISTAN ARMY AVIATION has a big fleet and yes there bases at Rawali and Pindi has Mushshaks.


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## SSGPA1

Jet crash kills Israel hero's son 

*An Israeli F-16 fighter jet has crashed in the West Bank, killing the pilot.*

*The pilot, Assaf Ramon, was the son of Israel's only astronaut, Ilan Ramon, who died in the explosion of the space shuttle Columbia in 2003. *

Sunday's crash took place in a hilly area south of the city of Hebron, military officials said. 

The jet was on a routine training flight, they added. There is no word on why it went down. Search and rescue crews are at the scene. 

Ilan Ramon - who was a former fighter pilot himself - is regarded as a national hero in Israel, and media broke into their normal broadcasts to report his son's death. 

An unidentified Palestinian told Israeli TV that the plane had flown low over the southern West Bank before crashing. 

"There was a huge fire," the eyewitness said. 

Assaf Ramon graduated from the Israeli air force pilot's course earlier this year. 

The military statement said he had excelled in his training course, and had been given his wings by President Shimon Peres. 

The Columbia disaster occurred on 1 February 2003. 

The space shuttle disintegrated during re-entry over the US state of Texas, killing all seven astronauts on board. 

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Jet crash kills Israel hero's son


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## mike bennett

Dear Forum Members,
A few extra details on the last two losses entries that I hope are of interest

Saturday 12th September 2009
Pakistan Army
Mashak
8?-??95
crashed on training flight in Solki Chattha area near Gujranwala in east Pakistan
Capt. Kamran Ikram
reported that survived the initial crash, but died later of his injuries in hospital
----------------

Sunday 13th September 2009
IDF/AF
F-16A
On a routine training flight. Crashed south of Hebron
Lt. Assaf Ramon
killed

Lt. Assaf Ramon's father, Ilan Ramon, died in the Columbia Shuttle crash on 1 February 2003. Ilan had ejected from an F-16A on 20th January 1982

With respect
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk

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## Abu Zolfiqar

regardless of country it's sad when such mishaps occur

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## MastanKhan

mike bennett said:


> Dear Forum Members,
> A few extra details on the last two losses entries that I hope are of interest
> 
> Saturday 12th September 2009
> Pakistan Army
> Mashak
> 8?-??95
> crashed on training flight in Solki Chattha area near Gujranwala in east Pakistan
> Capt. Kamran Ikram
> reported that survived the initial crash, but died later of his injuries in hospital
> ----------------
> 
> Sunday 13th September 2009
> IDF/AF
> F-16A
> On a routine training flight. Crashed south of Hebron
> Lt. Assaf Ramon
> killed
> 
> Lt. Assaf Ramon's father, Ilan Ramon, died in the Columbia Shuttle crash on 1 February 2003. Ilan had ejected from an F-16A on 20th January 1982
> 
> With respect
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk





Hi,

Now what a price the mother of the son has paid---first the husband---now the son----.


----------



## Arsalan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> regardless of country it's sad when such mishaps occur



well not the case with me,
i do not feel the person who was killing thousands of innocent people, it is not that i hate him because they kill Muslims, i mean tgis is not the only reason.instead what is equally important is they killed innocents,,, i am glad to hear that news,
this may sound in human but this is what they deserve as a reply, it is something like tit for tat!!
so for me it was a nice news,,

regards!


----------



## shr_bwp

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Now what a price the mother of the son has paid---first the husband---now the son----.



Ilan Ramon, the dad, was one of the pilots who participated in the Iraq Osirak nuclear plant attack.........

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/7/newsid_3014000/3014623.stm


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## TaimiKhan

Not to insult or disrespect, but i think we shouldn't mourn the loss of an Israeli soldier at least, becoz they all are involved in the inhuman killing of innocent human beings which include children of few weeks old even. 

You see the pics of these dead babies & children it will make you cry but these inhuman israeli soldiers have no remorse nor guilt.

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## Arsalan

taimikhan said:


> Not to insult or disrespect, but i think we shouldn't mourn the loss of an Israeli soldier at least, becoz they all are involved in the inhuman killing of innocent human beings which include children of few weeks old even.
> 
> You see the pics of these dead babies & children it will make you cry but these inhuman israeli soldiers have no remorse nor guilt.



exactly that is waht i was trying to make you people realize in my post..
this may sound a bit in human but for be it is the reward for there own in human acts,,
anyhow let us stay focused on the thread's topic,,

regards!


----------



## MastanKhan

shr_bwp said:


> Ilan Ramon, the dad, was one of the pilots who participated in the Iraq Osirak nuclear plant attack.........
> 
> BBC ON THIS DAY | 7 | 1981: Israel bombs Baghdad nuclear reactor



Hi,

That was a very well planned air raid----the israelis made sure that they strike the plant before it went active---so there would be no radio active fallout.


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## Arsalan

for me the news goes like this:
a israeli F16 went down killing the pilot who was a sort of celebrity in the country,, 


regards!


----------



## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was a very well planned air raid----the israelis made sure that they strike the plant before it went active---so there would be no radio active fallout.



Ya but i would give more credit to iraqi negligence for success. They were caught off guard.Such an important strategic facility should have been well guarded


----------



## Wingman

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Now what a price the mother of the son has paid---first the husband---now the son----.



FLT LT Nasim A Tariq, flying an F-86 Sabre in 1980 crashed and died his only son Imran Tariq was few months old at that time.

April 2004, FLT LT Imran Tariq while flying an F-7 Crashed and died near Mianwali, his only daughter was only 6 months old..

Very sad indeed...Begum Nasim Tariq did not re-married and taught in PAF School Sargodha and raised Imran Tariq and her only daughter.

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## mike bennett

dreamer said:


> FLT LT Nasim A Tariq, flying an F-86 Sabre in 1980 crashed and died his only son Imran Tariq was few months old at that time.
> 
> April 2004, FLT LT Imran Tariq while flying an F-7 Crashed and died near Mianwali, his only daughter was only 6 months old..
> 
> Very sad indeed...Begum Nasim Tariq did not re-married and taught in PAF School Sargodha and raised Imran Tariq and her only daughter.



Dear Dreamer,
Do you have more details of the two losses or photos of either pilot, so that I can update my records. You can contact me either via this forum or by email at mbenshar@aol.com

With Respect
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk


----------



## ejaz007

*French Pilot Missing After Rafale Aircraft Mishap*
By pierre tran 
Published: 25 Sep 2009 10:12

Paris - French ships and aircraft were searching the waters off the coast of Perpignan in southern France on Sept. 25 for the Navy pilot of one of two Rafale fighter aircraft that crashed into the sea after an apparent collision the previous day.

The search for the downed pilot would continue "as long as necessary," Defense Minister Hervé Morin said, the French Navy Web site reported. "As long as there's hope of finding him," he added while speaking to journalists on board the carrier Charles de Gaulle.

France is in negotiations for the sale of 36 Rafales to Brazil as part of the FX-2 fighter procurement program.

The two Rafales went down about 30 kilometers east of Perpignan around 6 p.m. Sept. 24 as they headed back to the carrier after a training flight, the Navy said. The aircraft were not carrying armaments and were engaged in validating parameters for catapult takeoff.

"This was a flying accident," Morin said. The collision between the two aircraft "had nothing to do with the plane." 

A Navy helicopter picked up one of the pilots, Capt. Yann Beaufils, who ejected as his aircraft went into a spin after registering a shock.

The rescued pilot, after ejecting, saw the other Rafale continue flying, and the radar track was lost a few minutes later, Morin said.

A midair collision was the most likely hypothesis, a French Navy spokesman said.

France has deployed a naval coast guard ship, an Atlantique 2 maritime patrol aircraft, a Hawkeye surveillance aircraft from the Charles de Gaulle, a Navy Falcon 50 jet, a Lynx Navy helicopter as well a Dauphin helicopter from civil security service in the search.

The authorities are also sending a tug with undersea equipment for locating aircraft wreckage and have asked for help from a Spanish ship.

Last year, a French Air Force pilot was killed when he crashed in his Rafale in the countryside in the Corrèze region. The crash inquiry concluded the pilot had suffered from "spatial disorientation."

French Pilot Missing After Rafale Aircraft Mishap - Defense News


----------



## ejaz007

*Small plane crashes at Karachi airport *
Updated at: 1528 PST, Thursday, October 01, 2009


KARACHI: A small plane crashed at Karachi airport while landing, Geo News reported Thursday.

According to sources, the training plane Cessna 172 was carrying three Spanish students who are all safe. They were one pilot and three trainees on board plane.

The tyre of the plane burst during the landing process. A portion of the airport has been blocked for landing and taking off.

The Civil Aviation Authority has directed an inquiry into the incident.

According to eye-witnesses, after the landing, the smoke is seen emanating from the plane. 

Small plane crashes at Karachi airport - GEO.tv


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ejaz007 said:


> *Small plane crashes at Karachi airport *
> Updated at: 1528 PST, Thursday, October 01, 2009
> 
> 
> KARACHI: A small plane crashed at Karachi airport while landing, Geo News reported Thursday.
> 
> According to sources, the training plane Cessna 172 was carrying three Spanish students who are all safe. They were one pilot and three trainees on board plane.
> 
> The tyre of the plane burst during the landing process. A portion of the airport has been blocked for landing and taking off.
> 
> The Civil Aviation Authority has directed an inquiry into the incident.
> 
> According to eye-witnesses, after the landing, the smoke is seen emanating from the plane.
> 
> Small plane crashes at Karachi airport - GEO.tv




oh crap......glad the guests were unharmed. Alhamdolillah


----------



## mike bennett

I have not seen this loss on the Aircraft Crashes list.

Wednesday 7th October 2009
11:06 a.m. local time

Libyan Air Force
MiG-23UB ??
8243
1023 Interceptor Squadron
Umm Aitiqah

*Maatiqa International Airport

Taking part in the Third Libyan Aviation Exhibition (LAVEX 2009). *The aircraft was flying at a low level when it nose dived and crashed hitting a one-storey house in the Souk-el-Jumaa [Friday Market] district in a suburb of the Libyan capital Tripoli. Several injured on ground

PILOT: 
Colonel Yahya Ahmed Hassan al-Hamidi killed

Colonel ??? [not yet named] killed

I know that in the past Pakistan have provided IPs for Libya and on15th May 1973 a Libyan Mirage IIIB crashed in the desert south of Tripoli. The (Egyptian) student ejected (injuring his legs) along with Instructor Tahir Alam of the PAF.

Given that Pakistan has had links with Libya I wonder if any Forum members could help me with the Libyan Ejections and Losses on my web site [www.ejection-history.org.uk]
I am also corresponding with an African Aviation forum to try to improve the information on Libyan Air Force history.

Recently Libya has been a little more open and a list of Martys from the Libya / Chad conflicts has been produced. On it there are several Pilots mentioned (no dates of their deaths). I will hopefully be able to compile a list of known pilot martyrs (using Arabic translation software) that may help.

With respect
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk

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## RPK

MIG-27 crashes in West Bengal; pilots ejects to safety

Kolkata/New Delhi: A MiG-27 fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force crashed in a tea garden near New Jalpaiguri in West Bengal on Friday but the pilot managed to eject safely. 

"The aircraft was on a routine training sortie from the Hashimara airbase and crashed at around 1310 hours, nearly 15 kilometres from its take off base near near New Jalpaiguri," IAF officials said. 


The pilot, Flight Lieutenant Gautam managed to bailout safely before the aircraft crashed, they said. 

The IAF has ordered a Court of Inquiry to investigate the causes behind the crash, they said. 

This was the ninth accident involving an IAF aircraft this year.


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## MALIKATIF

melb4aust said:


> PAF lost one of its F-7 Fighter jet during a normal training mission in Attock near Dhok Pathan. Unfortunately Pilot lost his life(Shaheed) too. Though there was loss of ground life. Airheadquarter has already formed an inquiry board to find out the reason of the crash.
> 
> We have gotta wait for more latest news to find out who was the pilot, how this incident happen.
> But that was really bad for us, especially the loss of a life a pilot. We need JF-17 soon to phase out these old F-7's.



SAY INNAH LILAH E WAINNA ELLIEHIE RAJIEON


----------



## MALIKATIF

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> oh crap......glad the guests were unharmed. Alhamdolillah



THANKS ALLAH PAK


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## Abu Zolfiqar

wow....yet another iaf Mig-27 falls to the ground in the west bengal

For the year 2009, this would make it the 10th military aircraft crash for iaf


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## Wingman

rpraveenkum said:


> MIG-27 crashes in West Bengal; pilots ejects to safety
> 
> Kolkata/New Delhi: A MiG-27 fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force crashed in a tea garden near New Jalpaiguri in West Bengal on Friday but the pilot managed to eject safely.
> 
> "The aircraft was on a routine training sortie from the Hashimara airbase and crashed at around 1310 hours, nearly 15 kilometres from its take off base near near New Jalpaiguri," IAF officials said.
> 
> 
> The pilot, Flight Lieutenant Gautam managed to bailout safely before the aircraft crashed, they said.
> 
> The IAF has ordered a Court of Inquiry to investigate the causes behind the crash, they said.
> 
> This was the ninth accident involving an IAF aircraft this year.



Please tell, board of inquiry gets busy in investigating, but I have never seen the board's finding in public??Why same happens in India too!!!


----------



## Chanakyaa

dreamer said:


> Please tell, board of inquiry gets busy in investigating, but I have never seen the board's finding in public??Why same happens in India too!!!



Military Snags = Military Secrets


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## Arsalan

rightly said, public never come to know about true happenings and that is the way it should be. let the military handle there matters and support them in there cause rather then creat hurdels in there past byy asking them about breifing as about each and every thing!

regards!


----------



## Enigma SIG

arsalanaslam123 said:


> rightly said, public never come to know about true happenings and that is the way it should be. let the military handle there matters and support them in there cause rather then creat hurdels in there past byy asking them about breifing as about each and every thing!
> 
> regards!



Taxpayers money; people have the right to know how their money is spent...

Famous Topgun quote: "You don't own that plane the taxpayers do"...


----------



## Arsalan

Imran2006g said:


> Taxpayers money; people have the right to know how their money is spent...
> 
> Famous Topgun quote: "You don't own that plane the taxpayers do"...



hmm i agree that they have right to know where three money is going but keeping in view the current situation of disbeliefe i dont think it is a practical approach! anyway..

regards!


----------



## Wingman

MI 17 Helicopter crashed to day near a Tehsil of Bajaur, the news flshed on all TV channels. It was told that the Heli tried to crash land.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

theyre saying it may be technical fault....some witnesses claim to have seen the engine on fire 

pilot and co-pilot survived with injuries...2 Tall Scouts and a Bajaur Scout embraced shahadat.


RIP


----------



## mike bennett

Sad news.

The names of those who were killed have been given as 





Pilot ??
injured

Co-pilot ??
injured

Maj. Humayun
killed

Capt. Zeeshan
killed

Naib Subedar Karimullah
killed

I'd appreciate the confirmation of these names.

with respect
Mike Bennett
Project Gert Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk

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## Arsalan

really sad incedient!
we have lost priceless lives along with a valuable platform!
the Mi17 are also going down faster ten they are comming in. i guess it is te second one gone down during the last three months operation rahe-rast!
and what makes the situation even worst is the loss of these brave men!
sad sad news!

regards!


----------



## mean_bird

*Indian made Ecuadorean Airforce Helicopter Crashes*



An Ecuadorean air force helicopter has crashed during a military parade in Quito, after a fire was reported in the back end of their aircraft.

Air Force officials said two people were on board the Dhruv helicopter when it came down. Neither was seriously injured.

Eye witnesses said the aircraft was flying in military formation when a fire began in the back portion of the helicopter, and it started to spiral toward the ground.

Firemen arrived at the scene immediately and put out the flames.

The accident took place as soldiers celebrated the 89th anniversary of the Ecuadorean Armed Forces.

*The helicopter is one of seven that Ecuador obtained from India last year for $45.2 million.*

As a result of the accident, *the government has suspended the use of the remaining six helicopters of this type in the country* which includes the one used by Ecuadors President Rafael Correa.


Ecuador: Helicopter crashes during military ceremony|Momento 24


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*hal Rushes to Ecuador to Ward off Dhruv Export setback​*


> Bangalore: A day after Ecuador threatened to return the Indian-made Dhruv fleet, HAL today rushed a three-member team including its chief test pilot to Quito to investigate the air crash involving one of the seven helicopters.
> 
> Ecuador had also indicated that it would declare its USD 50 million contract for seven Dhruvs with HAL void, depending on the outcome of the probe into Tuesday's crash.
> 
> 
> A team of HAL officials, who are at present based in Quito, have already joined the investigation into the crash that left two Ecuadorean Air Force pilots seriously injured.
> 
> Following the crash, Ecuador chose to ground the remaining Dhruv fleet. Incidentally, one of the seven helicopters is used by Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa.
> 
> Ecuadorean Air Force commander Rodrigo Bohorquez had said after the crash that "if it is a major problem that can't be easily remedied, we would have to return" the Dhruv helicopters to India.
> 
> Ecuador's was the first export order won by HAL Dhruv last year and the helicopters were delivered in February this year, and if it chooses to return the fleet, it would be a major embarrassment for HAL, which hopes to sell more Dhruvs to South American countries in the near future.
> 
> Bureau Report




Dhruv crash news-HAL rushes team to Ecuador to ward off Dhruv export setback


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## ejaz007

*MiG down in flames, two boys injured *
ANIRBAN CHOUDHURY 


Dhumchipara, Oct. 23: A MiG-27 that had taken off from an Indian Air Force base at Hasimara crashed into a stream here this afternoon, injuring two boys with burning fuel and killing four cows close to a tea garden. The pilot bailed out safely.

This is the ninth crash of an IAF plane this year, the second of a MiG27. The MiG 27s  there are more than 100 of the Russian-origin aircraft in the IAF's fighter fleet  were modernised recently.

Flight Lieutenant Gautam Cholaill had taken off on a routine sortie at 12.30pm and had contacted the Hasimara flight control at 1.10pm to report that his aircraft was on fire and he was bailing out, IAF sources said.

The pilot parachuted down into a bamboo grove at Uttar Rangalibazna, about 2km from the spot where the plane, a blazing fireball, crashed just beside the Mujnai Tea Estate, 65km from Alipurduar town. IAF sources said the pilot suffered minor injuries and was completely safe.

Eight-year-old Amit Tirkey and his brother Sanjit, 6, who had gone to the stream, locally called Ratna Jhora, to take a bath had spotted the plane coming down in flames. Both they were too scared to run even as the MiG crashed close to them making a deep crater on impact. Amit suffered burns on his back while Sanjits right hand and hip got scalded. They were standing 20 metres from the point of impact.

Both were taken to the Madarihat health centre. While Sanjit was released after treatment, his brother was referred to the State General Hospital in Birpara. The boys had difficulty in hearing, being temporarily deafened by the huge explosion, doctors at Madarihat said. We were so scared that we could not move. We had returned from school and were taking a bath when we saw a ball of fire rushing down from the sky. We heard a loud crash and then we could not see anything. There was pain and the next thing we knew we were carried to the hospital, Amit managed to say. The boys parents are garden workers.

A fire tender from Hasimara arrived at the spot in 30 minutes and controlled the flames. The pilot was taken back to base by a helicopter.

The black box has been recovered from the debris that lay scattered over an area of about 400 metres. The area has been cordoned off and IAF officers will remain there overnight.

Wing Commander V. Roy, the safety officer from Hasimara, said an inquiry had begun to ascertain the cause of the crash. Our pilot is safe and we have recovered the black box, he said.

The block development officer of the Madarihat-Birpara block, Naved Akhtar, said a report was being sent to the IAF base. Four heads of cattle have perished and we have been told by the IAF officers that they will provide compensation, the BDO said. 

Wing Commander R. Sahoo, the public relations officer of the Eastern Air Command, told The Telegraph over the phone from Shillong: Some technical snag seems to have led to the incident for which the air force has ordered a court of inquiry. 

Later a press release issued by the ministry of defence in Delhi said: There is no reported damage to any civil property or life. A Court of Inquiry has been ordered to investigate the cause of the accident.

Since its upgrade, the MiG 27 is expected to function better than it was despite its Soviet vintage. The modernisation meant that it had improved avionics, a more pilot friendly cockpit and navigation technology. Some of the computerised gadgetry installed in the avionics system of the MiG 27 are also used in the Jaguar and the Sukhoi 30 Mki aircraft of the IAF.

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


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## Abu Zolfiqar

wow....yet another iaf mig down. I think those spare parts from Ukraine and Belarus are not doing much justice.

condolences to india!


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

*Russian Army Jet Crashes into Sea​*





> A Russian military plane with at least nine people on board has crashed in the country's Far East, officials say.
> 
> They say the Tu-142 anti-submarine jet went down in the Tatar Strait during a training flight shortly after 1100 GMT.
> 
> It is not known if there were survivors in the crash, about 15km (nine miles) off the coast, although one report said some human remains had been found.
> 
> The Tu-142 is a maritime reconnaissance aircraft widely used by the Soviet navy.




BBC NEWS | Europe | Russian army jet crashes into sea




RIP


----------



## shanixee

DRDO downplays Rustom-I technology demonstrator UAV's crash 




By Shubhadeep Choudhury



The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) today played down the crash of Rustom-I technology demonstrator, the unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) being developed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) during its first flight at a private airfield near Hosur in Karnataka yesterday. 



The DRDO attributed the mishap to misjudgement of the altitude of the flight.



DRDO officials said due to wrong judgement of the altitude of the flight, the engine of the UAV was switched off by the ground command. This brought down the on-board thrust developed in the MALE (Medium Altitude Long Endurance) UAV and it crashed. It, however, remained unclear whether the error was a manual one or lied with the gadgets being used by the ground command to control the UAV.



The ADE, part of the DRDO, is leading the Rs 1,000-crore Rustom programme.



The UAV is expected to have capabilities that will match contemporary UAVs such as the Israeli Heron currently in use by the armed forces. The ADE is using the technology demonstrator as a stepping stone to prove the technologies that will go into the Rustom UAV.



The technology demonstrator is smaller in size than the original but has the same configuration as that of a full-fledged Rustom UAV. It was to undertake around 10 flights to check out taxing, taking off and landing like a conventional airplane but devoid of a pilot. Being smaller than the full-fledged production standard, Rustom has endurance of only 12 to 15 hours, approximately half of what the Rustom is being designed for.



The taxing and take-off of the UAV was exactly as planned. There are a lot of gains from the flight. The flight proved the functioning of number of systems such as aerodynamics, redundant flight control, engine, redundant data link, etc which go a long way towards development of complex UAVs, the DRDO said in a statement. It added that it was the first flight of the UAV using a 700-kg airframe and sophisticated controls and hence prone to development hazards.



Rustom is being developed by the DRDO for the Army, the Navy and the IAF. It is proposed to supplement the Israeli UAVs in service with the Indian armed forces.



Rustom is proposed to see the enemy territory up to a distance of 250 km and carry a variety of cameras and radar for surveillance.


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## Myth_buster_1

wow!

during 1995-2005 mig-21s were IAF main work horse and the crash rate were close to 20 and mig-21 being the main victim.
From the past 2-3 years with 120 or so Mig-21 upgraded to most advance version while main bulk of the fleet phased out the IAF has decided to clock more hours in 4th generation planes and crashing about 10 4th gen planes.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

inferior spares from former soviet republics......


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## Wingman

There is always a problem with the Soviet Tech, they are not reliable


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i think its not the aircaft per se. But Russian/Soviet aircraft tend to be more maintanance intensive. When they are in top notch form, they perform as well as other western systems. But they cost an arm and a leg to keep in fly-worthy condition as the flying hours go up. 

this is especially true with the dual engine aircrafts..... 





p.s. Mig-21 is still in service in many different countries. I dont know why it seems to be indian Migs which are having bad crash record and not the others. According to the Russian technicians, indians are buying non-genuine spare parts from former soviet states like Belarus and Ukraine.


----------



## Kompromat

RSAF investigates Tornado crash 

By Gareth Jennings
18 November 2009
A Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) Panavia Tornado IDS strike aircraft crashed on 15 November, according to local media reports.

The reports stated that the two-seat aircraft came down during a training mission in the desert along the Riyadh-Dammam Expressway in the country's eastern province. The crew is said to have ejected safely.

The cause of the crash is not yet known but early indications are that it was caused by a mechanical malfunction. The RSAF is investigating.


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## bilal1219

I live in Dammam. So i guess my parents would know about it.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

this is old....

(bird-strike)


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## ptldM3

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> this is old....
> 
> (bird-strike)
> 
> hbxwElXgex8[/media] - Ejection by a PAF Pilot F 7 Ac Video



If it was a bird strike, how did the aircraft continue to gain altitude. Also note how the engines smoke trail is visible even after the ejection.

Not trying to be a jerk, but are you sure it was a bird strike?


----------



## TaimiKhan

ptldM3 said:


> If it was a bird strike, how did the aircraft continue to gain altitude. Also note how the engines smoke trail is visible even after the ejection.
> 
> Not trying to be a jerk, but are you sure it was a bird strike?



Yeah it was a bird strike, a crow went into the intake of the aircraft while it was taking off. I don't see it gaining altitude, the pilot ejected, at the time the aircraft seems to be going into a stall, but it took a turn and went down into the ground. You can see the wing man behind it taking a drastic left turn and gaining altitude. 

It happened on a Pakistani Airbase.

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## Windjammer

IAF lost 36 aircraft, 32 lives in plane crashes since 2006 - dnaindia.com <<<<LINK


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ptldM3 said:


> If it was a bird strike, how did the aircraft continue to gain altitude. Also note how the engines smoke trail is visible even after the ejection.
> 
> Not trying to be a jerk, but are you sure it was a bird strike?



it isnt gaining altitude.


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## Windjammer

The F-7 had barely left the ground before it suffered a bird strike, you can see the wheels haven't even retracted.
This is what happens at altitude.


----------



## ptldM3

taimikhan said:


> Yeah it was a bird strike, a crow went into the intake of the aircraft while it was taking off. I don't see it gaining altitude, the pilot ejected, at the time the aircraft seems to be going into a stall, but it took a turn and went down into the ground. You can see the wing man behind it taking a drastic left turn and gaining altitude.
> 
> It happened on a Pakistani Airbase.



Thanks. 

If you look at 17-19 second frame of the video it does indeed appear the aircraft is gaining altitude, but i suppose that could have been caused by the aircrafts energy rather than thrust.

Anyways thanks again.


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## RPK

*Air force helicopter crashes in Sri Lanka*


Colombo, Nov 27 (DPA) A Russian built Mi-24 Sri Lankan Air Force helicopter Friday crashed in southeastern region of the island-country after an air display to mark the start of construction work of a new international airport, an Air Force spokesman said. 

The fate of the pilot and the two other people on board remained unclear as the helicopter crashed into a jungle, the spokesman said, adding that the accident was caused by a technical fault. 


The crash occurred in Badalkumbura, 310 km south-east of Colombo.


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## TaimiKhan

ptldM3 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> If you look at 17-19 second frame of the video it does indeed appear the aircraft is gaining altitude, but i suppose that could have been caused by the aircrafts energy rather than thrust.
> 
> Anyways thanks again.



Just for further information, plz watch the video of a bird strike of a F-16, just see for how long it keeps flying, the pilot does his best to restart the engine or get the aircraft down, as you said there was still thrust in the engine and the aircraft was already in motion, aerodynamics were in action due to which it seems it is gaining attitude, plus the aircraft was taking off, it was gaining attitude when it was struck, so the upward motion would be there for a few secs before it took a nose dive.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

classic video....


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## shanixee

Sukhoi fighter plane crashes in Rajasthan, pilots safe
PTI 30 November 2009, 06:51pm IST

A Sukhoi-30 fighter plane crashed near Jetha ki Dhani in Rajasthan's Jaisalmer district on Monday, but both the pilot and the co-pilot
baled out safely.

The fighter jet was on a routine sortie when the crash occurred, Defence PRO Lt. N N Joshi said.


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## shanixee

Sukhoi fighter plane crashes in Rajasthan, pilots safe - India - The Times of India

Sukhoi fighter plane crashes in Rajasthan, pilots safe
PTI 30 November 2009, 06:51pm IST

JAISALMER: A Sukhoi-30 fighter plane crashed near Jetha ki Dhani in Rajasthan's Jaisalmer district on Monday, but both the pilot and the co-pilot baled out safely. 

The fighter jet was on a routine sortie when the crash occurred, Defence PRO Lt. N N Joshi said


----------



## TaimiKhan

shanixee said:


> Sukhoi fighter plane crashes in Rajasthan, pilots safe - India - The Times of India
> 
> Sukhoi fighter plane crashes in Rajasthan, pilots safe
> PTI 30 November 2009, 06:51pm IST
> 
> JAISALMER: A Sukhoi-30 fighter plane crashed near Jetha ki Dhani in Rajasthan's Jaisalmer district on Monday, but both the pilot and the co-pilot baled out safely.
> 
> The fighter jet was on a routine sortie when the crash occurred, Defence PRO Lt. N N Joshi said



So Sukhois have started to go down.

Good to hear that pilots remained safe.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

shanixee said:


> Sukhoi fighter plane crashes in Rajasthan, pilots safe - India - The Times of India
> 
> Sukhoi fighter plane crashes in Rajasthan, pilots safe
> PTI 30 November 2009, 06:51pm IST
> 
> JAISALMER: A Sukhoi-30 fighter plane crashed near Jetha ki Dhani in Rajasthan's Jaisalmer district on Monday, but both the pilot and the co-pilot baled out safely.
> 
> The fighter jet was on a routine sortie when the crash occurred, Defence PRO Lt. N N Joshi said



haha.. i am loven thiss! PAF has much better safety record with their older F-16s then IAF with MKI.


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## Spring Onion

How much one Sukhoi costs?


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## TaimiKhan

Jana said:


> How much one Sukhoi costs?



I believe in between 40-50Million US$


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## Bushy

Jana said:


> How much one Sukhoi costs?



$35m-$45m, depending on the variant.

But Sukhoi30MKK goes above $50m.


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## Myth_buster_1

Jana said:


> How much one Sukhoi costs?



unit price is roughly 50 million dollars without spares.


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## PAFAce

Damn. I thought the problems with the MiG-21s, MiG-29s, MiG-27s, Harriers etc. would not be repeated with the Su-30MKIs. The Indian government really should get serious, they owe that to the people who are paying for the hundred Billion dollar Air Force deals. The lives of your soldiers, not to mention millions of dollars of hardware and many hours of expertise, are put in jeopardy every time the IAF takes off. Alas! the Indian media is too busy sensationalizing to bring any serious attention to this issue. I remember, when the Red Flag Colonel criticized the IAF's Sortie Generation Rate, the media was all over _him_ rather than the IAF. It is almost as if the media outlets are afraid of losing public support if they criticize the IAF. I guarantee, had this happened in Pakistan, Geo and Jang would roast the defense minister alive.



Growler said:


> haha.. i am loven thiss! PAF has much better safety record with their older F-16s then IAF with MKI.


What's to love here? An aircraft crashed. Thankfully, the pilot was unhurt. Why in the world would that make you feel happy?

No doubt we have a very good record. You have every right to feel proud of that. But, just for a moment, imagine if an Indian had said this about the PAF after one of our crashes, how would that feel?


fanna4paf said:


> missile test never happen but su crash is happen hahahhaha


Sad. You couldn't celebrate your own success, so you chose to celebrate someone elses failure.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

fanna4paf said:


> missile test never happen but su crash is happen hahahhaha



bhai you shouldnt laugh...... Even one must respect his/her enemy.

Lets just say thank God it wasn't one of our own but instead it was one of theirs (a flagship fighter at that)


this would be the 2nd IAF crash of Sukhoi aircraft since its induction. Their fleet was briefly grounded after the first crash if I am not mistaken.


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## DavyJones

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> bhai you shouldnt laugh...... Even one must respect his/her enemy.
> 
> Lets just say thank God it wasn't one of our own but instead it was one of theirs (a flagship fighter at that)
> 
> 
> this would be the 2nd IAF crash of Sukhoi aircraft since its induction. Their fleet was briefly grounded after the first crash if I am not mistaken.



yes grounded for a month.


----------



## Muradk

PAFAce said:


> Damn. I thought the problems with the MiG-21s, MiG-29s, MiG-27s, Harriers etc. would not be repeated with the Su-30MKIs. The Indian government really should get serious, they owe that to the people who are paying for the hundred Billion dollar Air Force deals. The lives of your soldiers, not to mention millions of dollars of hardware and many hours of expertise, are put in jeopardy every time the IAF takes off. Alas! the Indian media is too busy sensationalizing to bring any serious attention to this issue. I remember, when the Red Flag Colonel criticized the IAF's Sortie Generation Rate, the media was all over _him_ rather than the IAF. It is almost as if the media outlets are afraid of losing public support if they criticize the IAF. I guarantee, had this happened in Pakistan, Geo and Jang would roast the defense minister alive.
> 
> 
> What's to love here? An aircraft crashed. Thankfully, the pilot was unhurt. Why in the world would that make you feel happy?
> 
> No doubt we have a very good record. You have every right to feel proud of that. But, just for a moment, imagine if an Indian had said this about the PAF after one of our crashes, how would that feel?
> 
> Sad. You couldn't celebrate your own success, so you chose to celebrate someone elses failure.



It is sad when a fighter goes down, All they need is good training at this time. Crashes are a part of such organizations they need to see what can be improved. 
In IAF case there best pilots don't like to go to FIS and teach in which case they get bad pilots teaching in FIS. And that is not what I am saying my Indian Airforce friend said it.

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## BATMAN

A.o.A Sir, It's nice to see you back from now on please, keep well.
As you see by your self how precious PAF pilots are.

Any how, i personally would be glad if IAF pilots are less trained or not upto the mark.

What i would like to know here is the year of production of the late SU30.


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## BATMAN

Growler said:


> haha.. i am loven thiss! PAF has much better safety record with their older F-16s then IAF with MKI.


I think PAF has much better record than IAF, all around. 
There cannot be any paralle to F-16 flight record, which managed to fly without spares for 25 years.



Jana said:


> How much one Sukhoi costs?


cost dosn't matter for india. i smell *** in these all new SU crashes.
Some one is miserably trying to prove that Russian engines are not good enough.
As per indian claims avionics and control of MKI are the best in the world.


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## Windjammer

Agreed that we should maintain the high moral ground and display humanity at such set backs, but if any one thinks that the Indians don't rejoice at a PAF attrition, then a visit to Bharat Rakshak or something will spoil your day.
Once when a PAF pilot died in a crash, the comments were in the line as,
"One less for IAF to kill"....... and when you read stuff in that nature, then more often than not, gloves do come off. !!!!!
PEACE.


----------



## PAFAce

Windjammer said:


> Agreed that we should maintain the high moral ground and display humanity at such set backs, but if any one thinks that the Indians don't rejoice at a PAF attrition, then a visit to Bharat Rakshak or something will spoil your day.
> Once when a PAF pilot died in a crash, the comments were in the line as,
> "One less for IAF to kill"....... and when you read stuff in that nature, then more often than not, gloves do come off. !!!!!
> PEACE.


You don't have to go to any other website. You can find that type of Indian here as well. But, you will also find a more intelligent kind of Indian here, the type you might not find on that website, and for their sake, we do not stoop to low levels simply to get at them. We claim to be such good Muslims, well, an eye-for-an-eye is your right, but forgiveness is considered better. Same principle applies here.

As for that guy who said "one less for the IAF to kill", well, all I can say is, there is very little chance he would ever have the balls to say that in front of any of us. Let them hide in their snake-pits and gossip, why the heck do you care?

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## virkjee

PAFAce said:


> You don't have to go to any other website. You can find that type of Indian here as well. But, you will also find a more intelligent kind of Indian here, the type you might not find on that website, and for their sake, we do not stoop to low levels simply to get at them. We claim to be such good Muslims, well, an eye-for-an-eye is your right, but forgiveness is considered better. Same principle applies here.
> 
> As for that guy who said "one less for the IAF to kill", well, all I can say is, there is very little chance he would ever have the balls to say that in front of any of us. Let them hide in their snake-pits and gossip, why the heck do you care?



well said..........


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## RPK

Jana said:


> How much one Sukhoi costs?



HAL has SU30 production line, crashed one also HAL produced 
It cost around 20 million


----------



## fatman17

rpraveenkum said:


> HAL has SU30 production line, crashed one also HAL produced
> It cost around 20 million



sirjee more like 40 mill - a JF-17 costs 20 mill !!!


----------



## wangrong

rpraveenkum said:


> HAL has SU30 production line, crashed one also HAL produced
> It cost around 20 million





su30mki is cheaper than LCA........


----------



## wangrong

fatman17 said:


> sirjee more like 40 mill - a JF-17 costs 20 mill !!!



su30mki at least 55-65 mill


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## RPK

fatman17 said:


> sirjee more like 40 mill - a JF-17 costs 20 mill !!!



If you Buy from russia then it cost 40mil. HAL going Total indigenisation on su30 so it cost 20mil simple as that.

The Hindu : National : Total indigenisation of Sukhoi next year: HAL



> Next year, HAL will achieve 100 per cent indigenisation of the Sukhoi aircraft &#8212; from the production of raw materials to the final plane assembly,&#8221; V. Balakrishnan, general manager, Aircraft Manufacturing Division, told The Hindu here


----------



## fatman17

*A second Sukhoi Su-30MKI from the Indian Air Force has crashed.*


November 30: A second Sukhoi Su-30MKI from the Indian Air Force (IAF) has crashed, following the loss of the first on April 30 this year.

In this latest loss, both crew members successfully ejected without serious injury and the aircraft came down in the south-west of Pokhran at 17:30, according to an official press release. It had just become airborne from Jodhpur Air Force Station on a routine flying training sortie, taking part in exercises at Pokhran, reported the Times of India newspaper.

*The newspaper also says it is the 13th aircraft lost by the IAF this year, making it the worst &#8220;in recent times&#8221; with 25 personnel killed, and that the air force is considering grounding the Su-30 fleet pending an investigation, although this has not been confirmed by official sources.*

*AFM*


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## nightrider_saulat

indians have always the same problem of and that is crash crash crash


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## TaimiKhan

rpraveenkum said:


> If you Buy from russia then it cost 40mil. HAL going Total indigenisation on su30 so it cost 20mil simple as that.
> 
> The Hindu : National : Total indigenisation of Sukhoi next year: HAL



The news article does not says anything about the price of the local Su-30 by HAL. 

And the 20M figure is very very hard to believe for such a huge advanced fighter aircraft, even if it is local production.


----------



## RPK

taimikhan said:


> The news article does not says anything about the price of the local Su-30 by HAL.
> 
> And the 20M figure is very very hard to believe for such a huge advanced fighter aircraft, even if it is local production.



For su30 MKI & other details see here

*The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena*



> IAF will eventually acquire a total of 230 Su-30MKI. Out of these 90 will be made in Russia by Irkutsk Aircraft Production Association (IAPO) while the rest will be produced in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Production might be increased if necessary. HAL chairman Nalini Ranjan Mohanty has said that the Indian-built Su-30s will cost only about $22.5 million a unit against the current import price of about $37.5 million *that the Indian-built Su-30s will cost only about $22.5 million a unit against the current import price of about $37.5 million*


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## jalip

rpraveenkum said:


> For su30 MKI & other details see here
> 
> *The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena*



i think that is with out modern avionics as it is fitted with world best avionic India cant produce it by it self Israeli avionics cant be cheap


----------



## EagleEyes

Guys, keep this thread related to PAF only.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

IAF fleet of Sukhois: GROUNDED AGAIN for the 2nd time within 6 months.


*IAF Grounds All Sukhoi Fighter Planes After Jaisalmer Crash*



> Two days after a Sukhoi fighter jet crashed, the second this year, the Indian Air Force has grounded its entire fleet of 100 SU-30 aircraft.
> 
> "Following the crash at Jaisalmer in Rajasthan on Monday, the IAF has stopped flying all its Sukhoi planes and is conducting precautionary checks on each of the aircraft," an IAF official said in New Delhi on Wednesday.
> 
> A Sukhoi fighter jet had crashed during a routine training sortie south-west of Pokharan firing ranges. The two pilots, Wing Commander Srivastava and Flight Lieutenant Arora had bailed out to safety.
> 
> The previous Sukhoi crash took place on April 30 this year near Jaisalmer, killing Wing Commander P S Narah and leaving Wing Commander S V Munje injured.
> 
> The two Sukhoi crashes this year are among the 13 air crashes the IAF suffered in the last 11 months.
> 
> IAF currently has five operational Sukhoi squadrons. It aims to have at least 280 Sukhoi fighters in its fleet




IAF grounds all Sukhoi fighter planes after Jaisalmer crash


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Sorry Web Master, didnt see your post.

I was under impression this thread applied to all Military Aircraft mishaps.


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## bilal1219




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## All-Green

One wonders what would have happened if during the Mumbai Fiasco the intruding SU30 would have crashed in Pakistan...
Coming to these two crashes I think it may have to do something with the TVC...after all IAF must be devising tactics for TVC use as well.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

if its anything like the Mig-21 problem, it could be due to inferior non-OEM spares from former soviet countries

Russia blames India for MiG crashes,Security Issues, News Analysis, India News Online


----------



## TaimiKhan

All-Green said:


> One wonders what would have happened if during the Mumbai Fiasco the intruding SU30 would have crashed in Pakistan...
> Coming to these two crashes I think it may have to do something with the TVC...after all IAF must be devising tactics for TVC use as well.



Sir, 10 years is more then enough to devise tactics related to TVC or Su-30 flying characteristics. 

The first crash was due to pilot error, he switched off by mistake something which can only be done on the ground and then restarted only when the aircraft is on the ground. So when he did that in the air, no chance to restart that specific operation of the aircraft, resulting in the crash of the aircraft. 

This 2nd one is still to be ascertained.

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## shanixee

dont you think its lack of traning on the part of the pilot that he turned off something that must be turned off and on while on the ground...i mean wasnt he informed about it...wat kind of tranning they under go....strange


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i wonder what that "thing" is that can only be properly switched off on the ground etc. etc.

anyone have any idea?


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## TaimiKhan

shanixee said:


> dont you think its lack of traning on the part of the pilot that he turned off something that must be turned off and on while on the ground...i mean wasnt he informed about it...wat kind of tranning they under go....strange



The world is full of incidents where due to human error, aircrafts have crashed. Pilots having made mistake even with thousands of flight hours behind them. No matter how much training is perfect, human being is a human being capable enough to make mistakes, mistakes which seem very foolish at times to others.

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## TaimiKhan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i wonder what that "thing" is that can only be properly switched off on the ground etc. etc.
> 
> anyone have any idea?



*The pilot of the aircraft is said to have inadvertently switched off the flight controls in the cockpit that apparently caused the crash," officials said.*

ASIAN DEFENCE: IAF Su-30MKI crash was due to human error


----------



## Patriot

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i wonder what that "thing" is that can only be properly switched off on the ground etc. etc.
> 
> anyone have any idea?



I doubt that...I think you can only turn on the radar on ground.(REad it on F-16.net) but not sure about Russian jets.But keep in mind with FCS off the jet would have given warnings on take off and would have acted akward during take off as fcs was not responding properly to commands by pilot.


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## Trisonics

Patriot said:


> I doubt that...I think you can only turn on the radar on ground.(REad it on F-16.net) but not sure about Russian jets.*But keep in mind with FCS off the jet would have given warnings on take off and would have acted akward during take off *as fcs was not responding properly to commands by pilot.



There have been numerous crashes of commercial airlines when computers don't give errors when a certain action may say, accidentally switches of the auto pilot. Pilots are trained as much as possible, but its almost impossible to put every scenario into the training. 

I would urge you to read about an accident when a Russian pilot put his kid behind the controls of a commercial aircraft, I think it was an airbus. The kid attempts to roll the aircraft, the auto pilot automatically dis engages without warning. Some auto pilots do not disengage completely as well. The plane stalls, plunges into a spiral dive and hits the ground killing all on the plane.


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## Patriot

Trisonics said:


> There have been numerous crashes of commercial airlines when computers don't give errors when a certain action may say, accidentally switches of the auto pilot. Pilots are trained as much as possible, but its almost impossible to put every scenario into the training.
> 
> I would urge you to read about an accident when a Russian pilot put his kid behind the controls of a commercial aircraft, I think it was an airbus. The kid attempts to roll the aircraft, the auto pilot automatically dis engages without warning. Some auto pilots do not disengage completely as well. The plane stalls, plunges into a spiral dive and hits the ground killing all on the plane.


You can't compare an Airbus or Boeing with a fighter jet.Fighters jet airframes are unstable so they cannot perform maneuvers if FCS is switched off as FCS calculates everything and responds back to stick.Most of the fighter jets built after F5 Phantom ear have unstable air frame.

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## TaimiKhan

Patriot said:


> You can't compare an Airbus or Boeing with a fighter jet.Fighters jet airframes are unstable so they cannot perform maneuvers if FCS is switched off as FCS calculates everything and responds back to stick.Most of the fighter jets built after F5 Phantom ear have unstable air frame.



Patriot, in the first crash the pilot by mistake switched off the flight control switch while in the air, not while he was taking off. So once he switched it off in the air, there was no turning back, he did try to on it but no affect.


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## Sapper

Human error will always remain a part of equation, no matter how much training the human being goes through. Humans are inherently flawed ... training only limits the numbers but it can not reduce it to zero.

I praise the combat training of IAF pilots who have only lost a single aircraft during a DECADE of Su30 operation. (I know a second crash has happened but the reasons are unknown and I tend to give benefit of doubt to the accused rather than the accuser). Similar performance by PAF pilots have resulted in only one attrition in last 10 years of F16 service in Pakistan.

This is a testament to the pilot training in both air forces, at-least to the top-notch pilots of these two air forces.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

well i'm glad its them and not us who are losing such a large number per aircrafts every year


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## Myth_buster_1

rpraveenkum said:


> HAL has SU30 production line, crashed one also HAL produced
> It cost around 20 million



i dough that is the price of complete MKI. 
20 million could be the cost of just assembly, integration of foreigner systems, and russian systems.


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## wangrong

japan F15


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## graphican

taimikhan said:


> *The pilot of the aircraft is said to have inadvertently switched off the flight controls in the cockpit that apparently caused the crash," officials said.*
> 
> ASIAN DEFENCE: IAF Su-30MKI crash was due to human error



Hmm.. some face-saving is on the play. Are indian poilets innapt enough not to know which is the ignition switch and what could be result of turning it off. People who are honest with India defense must not let maintenance staff go with such a lame excuse. Push them, harder to deliver and if you kept accept their obvious blunders, you would have to accept 10s of other pilots saying they switched off gas-supply or they forgot to drain-off their puddles that stuck in engine as they were using SU-30's unseen washroom.


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## mshoaib61



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## Abu Zolfiqar

wangrong said:


> japan F15



how did it happen? failed gear?


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## wangrong

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> how did it happen? failed gear?



On the right landing gear fails, the wheel did not work


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i guess all i can say is 

t&#257; m&#257;de!!!!!!!


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## MastanKhan



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## mshoaib61

Pakistan Air force Mirage fighter crashed near Chakwal 
Thank God pilot ejected safely


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## mshoaib61

Updated at: 1310 PST, Wednesday, December 16, 2009
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage fighter jet has been crashed near Kalar Kahar on Wednesday.

According to PAF spokesman, pilot has been ejected safely and no damage has been reported on the ground. The crash happened due to technical fault, he added.

PAF fighter jet crashes - GEO.tv


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## ssheppard

A Mirage fighter jet of the Pakistan Air Force crashed in Punjab province on Wednesday though the pilot ejected safely, authorities said.

The aircraft was on a routine training mission when it crashed near Kalar Kahar in Chakwal district after developing a technical fault, the PAF said.

The crash did not cause any damage to life or property on the ground.

The PAF has set up a board of inquiry to probe the incident.

PAF fighter jet crashes


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## air marshal

*PAF Mirage Fighter Jet Crashes*
Wednesday, December 16, 2009

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage fighter jet has been crashed in district Chakwal on Wednesday. 

According to PAF spokesman, pilot has been ejected safely and no damage has been reported on the ground. The crash happened due to technical fault, he added.

- Geo


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## mike bennett

Dear Forum Members,
Mirage Losses in PAF

Chronological Listing of Pakistan Mirage Losses & Ejection

Can anyone help improve historic accuracy or provide pilot photos.

With respect
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk
mbenshar@aol.com


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## BlackenTheSky

air marshal said:


> *PAF Mirage Fighter Jet Crashes*
> Wednesday, December 16, 2009
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage fighter jet has been crashed in district Chakwal on Wednesday.
> 
> According to PAF spokesman, pilot has been ejected safely and no damage has been reported on the ground. The crash happened due to technical fault, he added.
> 
> - Geo


yeah i also heard on news..thankgod pilot is safe


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## Windjammer

Some of these Mirages are 40+ year old frames, over the years they have served PAF well. With the current scenario and PAF accumulating high hours/sorties due to it's involvement in operations in FATA areas, certain snags are apparent. However, main asset is the pilot who thankfully ejected safely.


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## abbasniazi

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage fighter jet has crashed in district Chakwal on Wednesday. According to PAF spokesman, pilot has been ejected safely and no damage has been reported on the ground. The crash happened due to technical fault, he added.

*This speaks out why PAF is so eager to induct JF-17s, it must be noted that Mirage planes have a good safety record within their specified lifespan, I think PAF must atleast double the production line of JF-17s.


Your Comments Guys...*

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## DaRk WaVe

Pilot saved, thats the good part

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## BlackenTheSky

this is already on NOTIFY AIRCRAFT CRASHES


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## air marshal

*PAFs Mirage fighter aircraft crashes*
December 16, 2009

ISLAMABAD: Fighter Aircraft of Pakistan Air Force - Mirage - crashed near Kalar Kahar while the pilot of the aircraft ejected safely.

According to PAF, the aircraft was on a routine training mission and crashed following developing some technical fault causing no damage to life or property on the ground.

Meanwhile, a board of enquiry has been ordered to probe into the incident.

- Associated Press of Pakistan


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## Comet

abbasniazi said:


> Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage fighter jet has crashed in district Chakwal on Wednesday. According to PAF spokesman, pilot has been ejected safely and no damage has been reported on the ground. The crash happened due to technical fault, he added.
> 
> *This speaks out why PAF is so eager to induct JF-17s, it must be noted that Mirage planes have a good safety record within their specified lifespan, I think PAF must atleast double the production line of JF-17s.
> 
> 
> Your Comments Guys...*


I agree with you... we need JF block 1's asap to replace these aging birds.


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## sonicboom

PACE Pakistan workers rescue PAF pilot after aircraft crash

Business Plus Report

LAHORE: A Mirage fighter aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed near the Durrab Lake on the under-construction PACE Pakistan Limited tourist resort in the Kallar Kahar area on Wednesday. 

*Workers from the site near the Chakwal Interchange rescued the pilot who had managed to eject safely. 

According to details, workers were busy at the construction site for the tourist resort when the plane crashed. Construction workers rushed their boats to fish the pilot out of the lake.

According to Pace Resorts Manager (Operations) Noorul Huda, the incident occurred at 4:45pm, and the workers were able to get the pilot to safety within minutes of the crash.*

According to PAF, the aircraft was on a routine training mission and crashed after it developed a technical fault. No damage to life or property on the ground was reported. A board of inquiry has been ordered to investigate the incident.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

AOA. Can someone informed get me the tail number of this aircraft? Was it one of the non rose aircrafts bought from australia?


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## Windjammer

India Aircraft Crash Photo, India Aircraft Crash Pictures, Stills, Indian Air Force officers inspect the crashed training aircraft


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## Muradk

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> AOA. Can someone informed get me the tail number of this aircraft? Was it one of the non rose aircrafts bought from australia?



Tail number 502.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Murad Saab -- thanks for the comprehensive update. 


Accidents like these are unfortunate, but thanks to God no damage or loss of lives. I don't know the protocol, but it seems that jettison tanks would be wisest thing to do in such situation when over rural area. I suppose it bought him some time to "limp" the aircraft further away from vulnerable area.

Sir, are those Mirage-IIIs using Martin bakers??


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## Abu Zolfiqar

wait a second, i just noticed something and now I am confused


so did the aircraft crash?? did he not eject? it says "his intelligent handling of a critical emergency prevented the loss of a valuable aircraft"


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## TaimiKhan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> wait a second, i just noticed something and now I am confused
> 
> 
> so did the aircraft crash?? did he not eject? it says "his intelligent handling of a critical emergency prevented the loss of a valuable aircraft"



This is not with reference to the current aircraft crash of Mirage, this is something which happened before for which the pilot got a citation.

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## Muradk

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Murad Saab -- thanks for the comprehensive update.
> 
> 
> Accidents like these are unfortunate, but thanks to God no damage or loss of lives. I don't know the protocol, but it seems that jettison tanks would be wisest thing to do in such situation when over rural area. I suppose it bought him some time to "limp" the aircraft further away from vulnerable area.
> 
> Sir, are those Mirage-IIIs using Martin bakers??



Yes they are using Martin-Baker PRM4-1.
SOP is jettison tanks but sometimes these emergencies happen over cities and pilots have to make certain decisions, Its takes hardly a sec to decide what to do and in the sec you can save your self or the fighter or the people down below. What I have seen during my service pilots have died saving civilian population below they could have easily saved them selves by dropping the tanks but they didn't. 
My student Air Cdre Late Hameed Qadri Base Commander Kamra died just because he was trying to take the fighter away from civilian population but during that his fighter went inverted and crashed he could have easily ejected but he didn't. It was not that he was not a good pilot he was an excellent pilot on a routine western CAP near Afghan border Qadri intercepted four SU-22 aircraft. His missiles failed to launch he managed to shoot two SU-22s with his guns.

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## Windjammer

Muradk said:


> Tail number 502.



So this aircraft, 502 which survived a previous emergency, was involved in the recent crash.??


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## mike bennett

Dear Murad or other Forum members,

Do you have a quality photo of Air Cdre Hameed Qadri - that I could use with his loss information for 19th July 2002 [http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/PAKISTAN/pakistan_f7p.htm]?

With respect
Mike Bennett


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## TaimiKhan

mike bennett said:


> Dear Murad or other Forum members,
> 
> Do you have a quality photo of Air Cdre Hameed Qadri - that I could use with his loss information for 19th July 2002 [http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/PAKISTAN/pakistan_f7p.htm]?
> 
> With respect
> Mike Bennett



Well couldn't find a good quality one, but did find this where is is standing beside one of his Su-22 kills tail.

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## Windjammer

mike bennett said:


> Dear Murad or other Forum members,
> 
> Do you have a quality photo of Air Cdre Hameed Qadri - that I could use with his loss information for 19th July 2002 [http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/PAKISTAN/pakistan_f7p.htm]?
> 
> With respect
> Mike Bennett



This is the best i could do for now, Hamid Qadri at the peak, second from left. 



http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/TheHoustonRocket/scan0001-1.jpg

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## mike bennett

Thanks Windjammer & Taimikhan,
For the images.
I've now uploaded one onto the web page. While the photo albums are out is is possible for forum members to view the Mirage page and see if they can add any names or photos ?

Thanks

Regards

Mike


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## Abu Zolfiqar

taimikhan said:


> This is not with reference to the current aircraft crash of Mirage, this is something which happened before for which the pilot got a citation.



KHA!!!! thanks rora


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## Kompromat

taimikhan said:


> Well couldn't find a good quality one, but did find this where is is standing beside one of his Su-22 kills tail.



Qadri embraced shahadat one day before his Retirement .. is that correct?


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## TaimiKhan

Black blood said:


> Qadri embraced shahadat one day before his Retirement .. is that correct?



PAF website says, it was last day at the base as base commander. 

" On 17 May, 1986, on a routine western CAP near Afghan border, Sqn Ldr Hameed Qadri intercepted four SU-22 aircraft. When his missiles failed to launch, he closed in with the enemy aircraft and shot down two SU-22s with his guns.

*He rose to the rank of Air Cdre and laid down his life in an air crash on the last day of his command as Base Commander Minhas.*

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## Wingman

taimikhan said:


> PAF website says, it was last day at the base as base commander.
> 
> " On 17 May, 1986, on a routine western CAP near Afghan border, Sqn Ldr Hameed Qadri intercepted four SU-22 aircraft. When his missiles failed to launch, he closed in with the enemy aircraft and shot down two SU-22s with his guns.
> 
> *He rose to the rank of Air Cdre and laid down his life in an air crash on the last day of his command as Base Commander Minhas.*



His promotion as AVM was announced, nothing would matter if he would not fly that last day, he tried his best to tackle emergency and delayed his ejection. He was our neighbour in 1986.


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## Wingman

Muradk said:


> Yes they are using Martin-Baker PRM4-1.
> SOP is jettison tanks but sometimes these emergencies happen over cities and pilots have to make certain decisions, Its takes hardly a sec to decide what to do and in the sec you can save your self or the fighter or the people down below. What I have seen during my service pilots have died saving civilian population below they could have easily saved them selves by dropping the tanks but they didn't.
> My student Air Cdre Late Hameed Qadri Base Commander Kamra died just because he was trying to take the fighter away from civilian population but during that his fighter went inverted and crashed he could have easily ejected but he didn't. It was not that he was not a good pilot he was an excellent pilot on a routine western CAP near Afghan border Qadri intercepted four SU-22 aircraft. His missiles failed to launch he managed to shoot two SU-22s with his guns.



Sir, this is why you are much needed in the forum, explained every bit of information in detail. 

2. Why did he go for mission? He also knew there was no need of it.

3. What actually happened to his aircraft that made the aircraft inverted??


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## Blackpearl

Well i may add on this.
Every pilot has to maintain its professional effeciency, by spending some time in flying, certain flying hours every year. Say being a pilot one has to fly minimum 50 hours in a year. then each pilot should not have a break between flying more more then certain time, say 60 days. If a pilot has done flying, if he does not fly for next 60 days, then he would not be "current", on that particular aircarft. so this bring out two thing
1. To remain on active pilot list, one has to fly/complete minimum number of hours.
2. To remain current, a gap of certain time should not be exceeded.

Being Base commander is the last and highest operational post of a fighter pilot, after which he would go in Headquarters for staff appoinrtment. A base commander is a pilot first then boss of the base. 
so its no surprise, Sir Qadri Shaheed was on a routine flying. and if you ask me, flying a fighter jet on the last day, before saying goodbye to active flying is highly memorable and nostalgic.


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## BlackenTheSky

Two F-16s which took off from the U.S. military base in Aviano, were flying over the Italian capital when one of the two jets suffered a major engine loss. 

An immediate request for an emergency landing was sent to the control tower of the Roman airport and was granted. 

Both planes landed at around 00.30h on runway 3 of the airport and are parked at the Cargo City freight terminal awaiting a US military technicians from Aviano to arrive with spare parts.


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## RPK

*Thai fighter pilot killed in crash: Air Force*

Bangkok: A Thai fighter pilot was killed instantly today when his aircraft crashed during training in the northeast of the country, an air force spokesman said. 


"The accident happened at 11.55am (0455 GMT) when a F5E fighter jet, in use since 1981 and attached to the fleet in Ubon Ratchathani province, crashed on the roadside," Group Captain Montol Suchookorn told. 

The pilot of the one-seater jet, Flying Officer Chatchawan Rasami, died at the scene. 

Montol said an investigating team was dispatched soon after the crash, which appeared to be an accident


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## wangrong

YANGON, Myanmar: A Myanmar Air Force fighter plane crashed Friday morning while attempting to land at Yangon airport, killing its pilot, an airport official said.

An official at Yangon International Airport said the F-7 jet crashed while on a training flight. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the press.

The cause of the crash was not immediately known. The Air Force base is adjacent to the civilian airport and uses the same runways.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

how old are their F-7s, which version are they using


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## wangrong

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> how old are their F-7s, which version are they using



1990-1991 35 *J7M*s

about 20 years


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## ejaz007

*Two Taiwan pilots killed in crash *
Updated at: 1215 PST, Thursday, January 28, 2010 


TAIPEI: Taiwan's military confirmed Thursday that two pilots were killed when their plane went down during a routine training mission. 

The military launched a massive search after the propeller-driven T-34 trainer went missing above the mountains of southern Taiwan shortly after taking off from the air force academy on Tuesday. 

"We have found the bodies of both pilots and we will continue investigating" the cause of the accident, said Yen Te-fa, a spokesman for the search mission. The air force has grounded all 40 trainers for safety checks after the incident. 

Two Taiwan pilots killed in crash


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## shanixee

An unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), Nishant, which was on a test flight, crashlanded in an agricultural land at Chikkatumutagiri in Bangarpet taluk on Friday following technical problem. The UAV was scheduled to land at Defence Research and Development and Development (DRDO) premises at Muduwadi Hosahalli in Kolar taluk. The vehicle was launched at 11 am and was scheduled to return at 4 pm after flying over Hosur in Tamil Nadu. However, it developed problems around 2.45 and crashlanded with a loud sound. Wings were damaged in the accident. No one was injured in the accident.


On hearing the thud, a teacher and students in a nearby school rushed out and saw the damaged vehicle. In Bangalore, a DRDO spokesperson denied that the UAV had crashlanded. However, he confirmed that the UAV was the advanced version of Nishant.


Spokesperson Jayaprakash maintained that the wings of the UAV were slightly damaged when the aircraft landed on an uneven ground. "The area where the UAV landed was earmarked for emergency landings and it landed using a parachute. The villagers assumed it was a crash," he claimed.He also said that there was no significant damage and that the aircraft was going to be used again.


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## Najam Khan

dreamer said:


> His promotion as AVM was announced, nothing would matter if he would not fly that last day, he tried his best to tackle emergency and delayed his ejection. He was our neighbour in 1986.



An Uncle of mine is his student...he was in 14Sqn at that time, he once told me that Qadri knew that his aircraft is about to crash, but still he controlled his nerves, remained very calm and managed the situation very professionally.


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## Blackpearl

I have a very sad news , i dont know why its still not posted here.
a cobra helicopter of Pakistan Army has crashed in Waziristan, both the pilots have embrassed Shahadat. The helicopter was reportredly hit by ground fire. 
May the souls of deparetd, rest in peace, ameen


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## Blackpearl

Ok the news is already there in an other thread.


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## razgriz19

hey guyz today i heard about some accident involving PIA's aircraft and a ground crew! (geo news)
anyone got some information!?


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## ejaz007

*February 11, 2010 (by Lieven Dewitte)*

An Italian AMI F-16A ADF (#MM7238) belonging to 5 Stormo at Cervia AB ditched into the Adriatic sea yesterday at 15.30h CET during a training mission.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article3991.html


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## Windjammer

A MiG-27 fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed in West Bengal on Tuesday, Defence Ministry officials said. The pilot was killed in the accident.

The fighter plane took off from the Hashimara air force base. The pilot, Wing Commander Aswal, was killed in the crash.


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## TaimiKhan

Windjammer said:


> A MiG-27 fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed in West Bengal on Tuesday, Defence Ministry officials said. The pilot was killed in the accident.
> 
> The fighter plane took off from the Hashimara air force base. The pilot, Wing Commander Aswal, was killed in the crash.



May the soul of the dead pilot rest in peace.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

so, what happened?


(RIP)


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## Windjammer

IAF MiG-21 crashes in West Bengal, pilot safe
Feb 19, 2010, 05.41pm IST





NEW DELHI: An Indian Air Force MiG-21 combat jet crashed soon after take-off from Bagdora in West Bengal on Friday but the pilot ejected to safety, an IAF spokesman said. 

"The aircraft crashed around 3pm soon after take-off and the pilot, squadron leader Rahul Tiwari, ejected safely," the spokesman added. 

"The pilot was picked up by an SAR (search and rescue) helicopter and has been taken to hospital," the spokesman said. 

This is the second crash of an IAF fighter in three days. A MiG-27 had crashed near the Hashimara air base, also in West Bengal, on Tuesday.


IAF MiG-21 crashes in West Bengal, pilot safe - India - The Times of India


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## Abu Zolfiqar

second crash in a week? I'm at a loss for words. I mean, wow. It goes without saying, glad the pilot lived; and even gladder it's their crafts instead of ours. Alhamdolilah, nazar na lagay


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## Hyde

secondcrash in 3 days................... so that bollywood movie was right....... indian govenment buys best aircrafts from Russia but with low quality parts 

but i feel sorry for that pilot who was died 3 days ago and hope Mig 21 pilot is OK in hospital and get well soon


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## Luftwaffe

The mig-27 that crashed was it the one which underwent upgrades and modifications? too bad i say..


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## ameer219

> so that bollywood movie was right....... indian govenment buys best aircrafts from Russia but with low quality parts



The movie is Rang De Basanti If I am not wrong


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## Hyde

ameer219 said:


> The movie is Rang De Basanti If I am not wrong



yes the same movie......

so many russian aircrafts crashed in indian inventory......... it might possibly add hurdles in the future indo-russian projects (my opinion only) afterall there is a limit to everything


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## Wingman

may the pilot rest in peace, always feel sad about the death of a pilot

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## umair shah

And the saddast thing is that aft such movies nothing happens no politician or main person behind these deals was held and no inquiries I think the prob is with the phsyche of the ppl living in this part of the world (pak & ind) they need smthg huge to awake


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## Luftwaffe

Mr X..i believe the last of what india has and will get is upgrades of su-30 to su-35 standards, pak-fa and perhaps couple of squadrons of su-30 that's the end of it i don't see what else would india get from russia beyond this America is and will be the next destination for india..


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## fatman17

Express news is reporting crash of army helo on takeoff at tarbela - 4 injured including the pilot but 1 killed.

sad news - May Allah Bless the fallen soldier!


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## ejaz007

*Army helicopter makes crash landing in Haripur *
Updated at: 1044 PST, Wednesday, February 24, 2010


RAWALPINDI: An Army helicopter made a crash landing due to technical fault during a routine flying near Tarbela last night. 

According to ISPR, one crewmember embraced Shahadat, while three others got injured. The injured were evacuated to CMH and their condition is stable. 

Army helicopter makes crash landing in Haripur - GEO.tv


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## MZUBAIR

fatman17 said:


> Express news is reporting crash of army helo on takeoff at tarbela - 4 injured including the pilot but 1 killed.
> 
> sad news - May Allah Bless the fallen soldier!



From Nawai Waqt News Paper



*Which is MI-77 Helo (acc to above news), Is it COBRA ?*


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## TaimiKhan

MZUBAIR said:


> From Nawai Waqt News Paper
> 
> 
> 
> *Which is MI-77 Helo (acc to above news), Is it COBRA ?*



wrongly printed, it seems to be a Mi-17, not 77. 

Cobra has just 2 crew members, this one had many. So not a Cobra.


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## mjnaushad

MZUBAIR said:


> From Nawai Waqt News Paper
> 
> 
> 
> *Which is MI-77 Helo (acc to above news), Is it COBRA ?*


It might be MI 17....could be typo mistake from a newspaper. Sad news indeed.


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## ice_man

BAD WEEK FOR AIR FORCES IN ASIA!!


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## Uzair Zahir

today another went down in haripur !
some analyst say hostile fire , sum say the old tech fault !


----------



## Windjammer

New Delhi: An Advanced Light helicopter "Dhruv" of the Indian Air Force on Saturday crash-landed in Rajasthan's Jaisalmer district while rehearsing for the "Vayu Shakti" air power show to be held there on Sunday.
The helicopter was part of the Sarang Helicopter Display Team of the IAF and was rehearsing for tomorrow's air show, when the incident occurred, IAF officials said here.
"Both pilots are safe after they had to make a controlled crash-landing due to loss of power in the chopper," they added.
The IAF has ordered a Court of Inquiry to look into the reasons behind the incident, the officials said.
In 2005, the entire ALH Dhruv fleet had been grounded for several months after a similar incident in Andhra Pradesh and the subsequent probe had found a fault with the tail rotor blades of the choppers.
On whether the display team comprising four ALH Dhruvs will take part in the air show on Sunday, for which the President and the defence minister are also coming, they said, "Sarang's participation is not yet cancelled.

IAF&#039;s Dhruv helicopter crash-lands in Jaisalmer | Deccan Chronicle


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## shanixee

2 South Korean fighter jets crash; 3 airmen killed 

SEOUL: Two South Korean fighter jets crashed into a mountain Tuesday during a routine training mission, killing three airmen on board, the military said.

The F-5 jets hit a mountain in Pyeongchang, about 110 miles (180kilometers) east of Seoul, shortly after they took off from a nearby air base, an air force official said on condition of anonymity citing department policy.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

good grief....

RIP to the 3 airmen.


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## Azam Eagle

Ohhhhhhhh...
It really very very shocking news.
We need better Engineering and control works about AirCrafts.


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## Windjammer

India navy plane crashes at air show, killing pilots


A three-storey house was destroyed
An Indian naval plane has crashed at an air show in the city of Hyderabad killing both pilots, the navy says.
Footage showed the plane flying in formation before crashing in a densely populated area near the show ground.
A three-storey house was destroyed and other buildings damaged. There is no word yet on any further casualties on the ground.
It is not clear what caused the crash. The Indian Aviation 2010 show opened on Wednesday and will go on until Sunday.
The two-seater Kiran MK-II which crashed was part of a four-plane formation.
"In the final phase, the aircraft appears to have gone out of control. They crashed into a building and the pilots have died," navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma told reporters.
The other three aircraft landed safely, the navy said.
An inquiry is being ordered to find out what caused the crash, it added.

BBC News - India navy plane crashes at air show, killing pilots


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## Hyde

another indian aircraft 

is it possible i can see a list of Aircraft crashes of Indian Air Force/Navy in 2009 and 2010? I am sure it will be very long

Rest in Peace


----------



## Hyde

another indian aircrafts.....................

india needs to ground all of its aircrafts for inspection

I feel sorry for the pilots

R.I.P


----------



## razgriz19

Zaki said:


> another indian aircrafts.....................
> 
> india needs to ground all of its aircrafts for inspection
> 
> I feel sorry for the pilots
> 
> R.I.P



planes that were crashed in recent time were all old and did not have much life left, so IAF just needs to ground their OLD fleet. their new planes r in pretty good condition.


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## Faadi

Oh! This news has made me sad. May the soul of the martyr pilot rest in peace but I am bothering that didn't F-7 had an ejection system. Verily, the loss of the precious life of a pilot is a loss to our whole nation.


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## Indian-Devil

Faadi said:


> Oh! This news has made me sad. May the soul of the martyr pilot rest in peace but I am bothering that didn't F-7 had an ejection system. Verily, the loss of the precious life of a pilot is a loss to our whole nation.




We can understand ur pain for this crash. Feeling sorry for the pilots.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

razgriz19 said:


> planes that were crashed in recent time were all old and did not have much life left, so IAF just needs to ground their OLD fleet. their new planes r in pretty good condition.



inferior non-OEM (number doh) spare parts from former soviet countries, in an effort to save money, is proving to be a disastrous policy for the IAF


Russia blames India for MiG crashes,Security Issues, News Analysis, India News Online

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## razgriz19

pak army chopper made a hard landing!
Army chopper makes emergency landing - GEO.tv

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## EagleEyes

Keep this thread relate to Pakistan Armed Forces only. It helps keeping track of all the crashes throughout the years.

Thanks.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

razgriz19 said:


> pak army chopper made a hard landing!
> Army chopper makes emergency landing - GEO.tv



thank God the pilots/crew are safe!


----------



## razgriz19

another Rashid is shaheed....=(

Small plane crashes in Peshawar; pilot dead - GEO.tv


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## razgriz19

its probably a mushaq....i think...


----------



## TaimiKhan

May the martyred soul rest in Peace, Ameen.

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## lhuang

RIP brave airman


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## Abu Zolfiqar

razgriz19 said:


> another Rashid is shaheed....=(
> 
> Small plane crashes in Peshawar; pilot dead - GEO.tv



yeah most likely a Mushak trainer....

RIP to the pilot, and may Allah SWT give strength to his family. Dying while serving the country is always the highest honour.












*&#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1608; &#1575;&#1606;&#1617;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1740;&#1729; &#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;*

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## Xeric

DAWN.COM | Metropolitan | Army training aircraft crashes near Peshawar

* Army training aircraft crashes near Peshawar*

Thursday, 08 Apr, 2010 

PESHAWAR: An army training aircraft crashed on the outskirts of Peshawar, killing the pilot on Thursday. 

According to the police, Pakistan Army's Mushaq aircraft was on a routine training mission when it crashed in Nelavi area in the open fields.

The wreckage of the aircraft has been found and the body of pilot has been shifted to Combined Military Hospital Peshawar.

Police said the aircraft may have crashed because of technical fault, however, the ISP is still investigating the reason of the crash. 

----

RIP soldier!


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

A sad news . was there a may day call from the pilot or hostile act the reason ? may he rest in peace.


----------



## Hyde

*Rest in Peace* 

Inna Lilla hai wa inna ellaihi raji'oon


----------



## Imran Khan

so so sad young poilat inshallah rest in peace and jannah.


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## Windjammer

An irreplaceable lost of life, 

May our warrior rest in peace.


----------



## Wingman

May the Pilot Rest in Peace


----------



## air marshal

*Pakistan Armys Mushak trainer crashes, pilot embraces shahadat*

ISLAMABAD, Apr 8 (APP): Mushak trainer aircraft of Pakistan Army crashed on Thursday while on its routine flight mission in Nagman Charsada road near Peshawar.

According to ISPR, the pilot of the single seat aircraft, Captain Rashid embraced Shahadat following the crash. Body of the Shaheed pilot is being taken to Gilgit for burial with all military honors, in his home town. An enquiry into the incident has been ordered.

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## Uzair Zahir

RIP...warrior of the sky ! 
we are proud of you !
a captain always goes down with the ship ...
just like this young lad did !


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## air marshal

May his soul rest in peace, ameen!


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## air marshal




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## air marshal




----------



## Windjammer

.:: SAMAA - Aircraft crashes near Peshawar


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

They should coduct full investigation to determine cause of the accident.


RIP to the fallen son of the soil; God bless him and his family


----------



## ejaz007

*Army training aircraft crashes *

PESHAWAR: An army training aircraft crashed on the outskirts of Peshawar on Thursday killing the pilot. According to the police, Pakistan Armys Mushak trainer aircraft, while on its routine flight mission crashed in open fields in Naguman area in district Charsadda, near Peshawar. The wreckage of the aircraft has been found and the body of the pilot identified as Captain Rashid has been shifted to Combined Military Hospital Peshawar, from where the body will be taken to his hometown, Gilgit for a military burial. Police said the aircraft may have crashed because of a technical fault, however, the officials are still investigating the reason of the crash. According to police sources, the relief teams and ambulances soon arrived on the spot. No other fatalities occurred in the crash. staff report

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## fatman17

sad news - may Allah grant him jannat

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## fatman17

why no ejection seats in these aircraft?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Inalilahe wa ina illehey ragaoon........Rest the Shaheeds soul rest in peace and have the best place in heaven........and patience to family and friends.Ameen


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> why no ejection seats in these aircraft?



I was myself thinking that they should place ejection seats in these aircraft, we have lost many good pilots due to MF-17 Mushak accidents, the Martin Baker Zero-Zero ejection seats will work in them.

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## Justin Joseph

RIP, sad news.


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## Blackpearl

TaimiKhan said:


> I was myself thinking that they should place ejection seats in these aircraft, we have lost many good pilots due to MF-17 Mushak accidents, the Martin Baker Zero-Zero ejection seats will work in them.



High cost E seats are never put into low tech aircraft like Cessna, or Mushak. These are piston engine powered aircraft, and all such categories of planes are designed to glide safely to some distance and may make a perfect landing with power off, if suitably handled by pilot. 
I remember about 4-5 years back, i read in a newspaper that Mushak planes are commercially offered by Aeronautical complex at a price of Rs 6 Million. I think a single MB seat must cost close to 1 M $ (8 crore rs). the cockpit of Mushak is small, and 2 seats cannot be accommodated side by side. besides it will considerably increase the weight of aircraft which a 200 horsepower engine cannot lift.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

you need to find an un-tetherable balance between flight safety/protecting the valuable assets (pilots, aircrafts) with cost-effectiveness and remaining within a contrained budget

in theory, you could install ejection seats (not sure if its ever been done on such an aircraft). It has a large enough canopy to enable it; but there would have to be some major modifications.

Quite frankly, I think its due for some face-lifting and modernizations; albeit its just a trainer


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## TaimiKhan

Blackpearl said:


> High cost E seats are never put into low tech aircraft like Cessna, or Mushak. These are piston engine powered aircraft, and all such categories of planes are designed to glide safely to some distance and may make a perfect landing with power off, if suitably handled by pilot.
> I remember about 4-5 years back, i read in a newspaper that Mushak planes are commercially offered by Aeronautical complex at a price of Rs 6 Million. I think a single MB seat must cost close to 1 M $ (8 crore rs). the cockpit of Mushak is small, and 2 seats cannot be accommodated side by side. besides it will considerably increase the weight of aircraft which a 200 horsepower engine cannot lift.



First of all, a pilots life is much expensive compared to a 1M $ seat. Hope you know how much it costs to train a pilot and the pilots own life linked to its family is separate to that. 

If they can't procure MB seats, alternatives are there. There are now Chinese variants also, they can be tested as China itself is using them in their jets, atleast it will increase the chances of saving a pilots life. 

In last few years, we have lost more then 4-5 pilots alone to Mushak crashes.

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## Tiger Awan

Windjammer said:


> MIG-27 crashes in WB
> BY : centralchronicle
> A MiG-27 fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force crashed in a tea garden near New Jalpaiguri in West Bengal on Friday but the pilot managed to eject safely.
> idrw.org




ops.

RIP to the plane.

When did these Mig-27 got clearance??? I think so still a number of Mig-27 in IAF are grounded for inspection!!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

I was also under impression they were grounded until further notice, given the spate of crashes they have been undergoing in iaf


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## Windjammer

Tiger Awan said:


> ops.
> 
> RIP to the plane.
> 
> When did these Mig-27 got clearance??? I think so still a number of Mig-27 in IAF are grounded for inspection!!





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I was also under impression they were grounded until further notice, given the spate of crashes they have been undergoing in iaf



MIG-27s supposedly have gone through a recent upgrade, i knew the MIG-23MF were grounded and in the process of being phased out.
However, i did read somewhere that the IAF strives to log flying hours to prove it's preparedness........ with whatever that's available.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i wonder which squadrons are based in West Bengal

i feel that almost every Mig crash the indians suffer from takes place over there


what's going on?


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## razgriz19

CV-22 osprey crashed in afghanistan!!!!!!!
US troops among four killed in Afghan aircraft crash - GEO.tv
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/201...+Stories+2))&utm_content=Google+International
RIP


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

have u seen the flight safety record of those V-22s since their induction?

I'm surprised they fly those in Afghanistan


----------



## razgriz19

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> have u seen the flight safety record of those V-22s since their induction?
> 
> I'm surprised they fly those in Afghanistan



i kno their flight record is bad...very bad...

and marines wanted to use it in afghanistan....i think.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

I''ll be very honest with you. The idea of the V-22 osprey is clever -especially for an entity like US Marines which requires a mix of medium/long transport roles while also having ability to land vertically in unstable environment; It has pretty decent range, top speed and carrying capacity but the track record leaves question marks (especially if you look at the nature of the accidents ---all which resulted in sizeable personnel casualties)

I had NO idea these aircrafts were active in Afghanistan; I was under impression americans use those chinooks for heavy cargo/troops transport.


i havent even flown this aircraft, and it still scares the hell out of me just looking at it 























p.s. MV-22 is used for naval role. I think as a naval recce aircraft this platform would make a huge amount of sense --provided that all shortfalls and security concerns are addressed

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## Windjammer

razgriz19 said:


> lol....but now im pretty sure israelis r not gonna buy them specially after this crash!



At $70 Million a piece, it hasn't exactly proved a worthy investment.


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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> At $70 Million a piece, it hasn't exactly proved a worthy investment.



forget the unit price...i think the whole project is a total failure!
and btw u r 100% correct!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

like i said, it's a bit of a shame.

the idea is fantastic, project execution didnt go so well......nor did pilot training/experience I suppose.



seems to be a perfect aircraft for naval patrol/logistics, given the tilt rotor design. But $70 million a pop makes it quite cost prohibitive for most countries


----------



## razgriz19

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> like i said, it's a bit of a shame.
> 
> the idea is fantastic, project execution didnt go so well......nor did pilot training/experience I suppose.
> 
> 
> 
> seems to be a perfect aircraft for naval patrol/logistics, given the tilt rotor design. But $70 million a pop makes it quite cost prohibitive for most countries



yup, well i guess they r probably gonna ground the whole fleet for now.....or maybe for forever!


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## Windjammer

People, remember this is a revival of a 70s project, after initially being shelved, the US Marines saw a potential for the platform, but so far it's only proved to be a lost cause.


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## razgriz19

*UAVs 'crash-landed' in Jaisalmer village*

JAISALMER: Villagers at Indo-Pak border in Jaisalmer district had some awful moments when two unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) landed in their fields recently. A few villagers, after finding the vehicles unmanned, dismantled them and took away some of its parts. 

Though Air Force officials are mum over the incident, it was learnt that the two Nishant UAVs, during a trial, had lost their way due to change in wind direction and they were landed through parachute. The vehicles were towed away from the spot and are being repaired at present. 

With two UAVs crash landings in three days, effectiveness of Defense Research and Development Organization's (DRDO) Nishant UAVs has come under scanner. Though officials of the armed forces through their portal have expressed satisfaction over the test results, situation at ground zero tells a different story. 

Last week on April 28 and 30, two trial runs at the Pokhran field firing range resulted into crash landing and that too outside the set range, resulting in damage to the vehicles. 

DRDO maintains that these landings were a result of sudden change in wind direction and some minor technical faults which drove them in a different direction, but they were well controlled and were landed safely using parachutes. It is learnt that ever since incident took place, video quality, tracking ability, firing rage of the UAV is being evaluated. 

According to sources, on April 28 Nishant was launched from mobile hydro-pneumatic launcher, but in a matter of a few minutes, it deviated from the set path and landed in Chacha village near firing range. Similar incident happened a day after on April 30, when the UAV lost the track and landed merely 200 metres from Lathi police station. Cops at the PS confirmed the crash landing. 

While the UAV was damaged by the crash landing, on both the occasions, before air force personnel could reach the site, villagers managed to break into the aircraft and took away quite a few equipment. 

Confirming the news, a DRDO official said, "The user trials were going on and during the flight there were some technical snags owing to which the craft was landed using parachutes." He said, "But the landing was done safely and no one was hurt in the process. Though before our officials could reach to get the craft back, villagers damaged the aircraft and took away some equipment." 

The official maintained that it wasn't a crash landing and that they were in control of the vehicle. "The wind direction and minor technical snag did us in, but we at no moment lost control of the UAV," the officer asserted. The technical team working on UAVs says that the vehicles will fly after repair.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-in-Jaisalmer-village/articleshow/5904608.cms


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## zavis2003

razgriz19 said:


> k7x said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am still puzzled , why these pilots are killed in these crash.
> 
> Now a days every aricraft , mig 21, su mki , j10 ect are having zero zero ejection system. with that in place why do we have fatalities .
> 
> *is it that the pilot trying to save his bird till last moment ?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> probably yes....almost every pilot(in any air force) would try to save his plane first..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> really a taste of death is not so sweeet and every one take it seriously though quantity may be different and it really make nervvous the pilots about terrible situation
> though some pilots are really a good ones too
> *i respect s the enemies too like ZIVI NAIDIVI who flown F15 on a single wing*
> oh my god
> a great effort
> a history and luck too
> so it depends upon the pilot how to cope the situation
Click to expand...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

so.......it wasnt the crash that destroyed the UAVs....it was villagers stripping them down for parts to sell and make money off of


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## Comet

razgriz19 said:


> i feel like im the only one here posting all the crashes.....



Well keep up the good work

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## fatman17

i think this section was mainly to report and discuss pak air crashes - now everyone is posting anything and everything

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## Azam-e-Nau

fatman17 said:


> i think this section was mainly to report and discuss pak air crashes - now everyone is posting anything and everything



 Yeah lol, 


Pakistan Zindabad, Walaykum As-Salam


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## Parashuram1

My sincere respects to the brave pilot(s) who don't care for their own lives but give it up easily for the country or to avoid injuring people on the ground. Considering that aircraft crash all over the world, I feel that there should be an international group setup for respecting the pilots of various nationalities whether civilian or military, who gave up their lives for a noble cause.


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## fatman17

^very sad news when a pilot loses his life!


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## Wingman

I always feel grieved when a Pilot dies


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## Wingman

A Small plane crashed while landing at HANGU airport injuring 6 on board (News Flash on Geo)


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## razgriz19

6 injured in plane crash in NW Pakistan
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2010-05-22 17:27 

ISLAMABAD - A small private aircraft crashed when it landed on Saturday, injuring all six onboard including the pilot in the northwest tribal area of Pakistan, local TV reported.

According to local private TV SAMAA, the plane overshot while landing and lost control. It went out of the runway and crashed in Parachinar, Kurram tribal area.

The wounded people were transferred to a nearby hospital for treatment.

http://www.allvoices.com/s/event-58...kLzIwMTAtMDUvMjIvY29udGVudF85ODgxNjkxLmh0bQ==


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## alibaz

Thanks God no loss to human life


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## Jazzbot

RIP to pilots.


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## Huda

YA ALLAH rehm


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## Abu Zolfiqar

To be a combat pilot is a job selected by the best of the best -- for the best of the best, the creme de la crop. They are trained and groomed to fight for the country, die for it if necessary. It's a main part of the job description.

Even with that said, sad to see such a young and good looking soul depart. 


As for the incident according to rumours:

An eyewitness from a nearby village has confirmed that the fighter jet was single seater -which means that it was F-16C- and the pilot tried to avoid the populated areas heading to a vast rice field area. He ejected at very low altitude, but unfortunately was too close to the site of the exploding aircraft.

Not sure what caused the incident to begin with, but obviously a major technical malfunction. It seems that Egyptian state and private media is not revealing many details. 

&#211;&#199;&#205;&#199;&#202; &#199;&#225;&#216;&#237;&#209;&#199;&#228; &#199;&#225;&#218;&#209;&#200;&#237; - &#218;&#209;&#214; &#227;&#212;&#199;&#209;&#223;&#201; &#230;&#199;&#205;&#207;&#201; - [&#199;&#206;&#200;&#199;&#209;] &#211;&#222;&#230;&#216; &#216;&#199;&#198;&#209;&#201; &#205;&#209;&#200;&#237;&#201; &#227;&#213;&#209;&#237;&#201; &#221;&#236; &#207;&#227;&#237;&#199;&#216; ..

(Arabic source)

RIP

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## Jungle

May the Pilot RIP.


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## mjnaushad

R.I.P 

He tried to get out of population area to avoid civilian causalities and gave his own life. Really was a hero.

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## junaid_mt

Paf's Uav Crash near sergodha 







source http://geo.tv/7-13-2010/u113174.htm


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## Patriot

Well thanks god it was UAV not a manned aircraft!


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## mjnaushad

^^I think its falco not falcon....


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## EagleEyes

*THIS THREAD IS FOR PAF AIRCRAFT CRASHES ONLY*

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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> *THIS THREAD IS FOR PAF AIRCRAFT CRASHES ONLY*



thanks webster, i have gone hoarse saying the same thing!!!


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## Lone Bullet

may their soul rest in peace


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## SSGPA1

May I suggest changing the name of this thread to _*Notify PAF Aircaft Crashes.*_ or *Notify Pakistani Aircaft Crashes*

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## SQ8

shanixee said:


> One killed, 12 hurt as Indian MiG crashes in village
> 
> One killed, 12 hurt as Indian MiG crashes in village
> Saturday, 24 Jul, 2010 2:30 pm
> KOLKATA : A farmer died and at least 12 other people were injured on Saturday when a Soviet-era MiG-27 Indian war plane crashed into a village in eastern India, police said.
> 
> The pilot ejected before the crash in Moinagudi village, some 600 kilometres (370 miles) north of the West Bengal state capital Kolkata, Indian Air Force spokesman Rajib Sahoo told AFP.
> 
> "The MiG-27 was on a routine sortie when it crashed into the village killing one person and injuring 12 others on the ground," the official said.
> 
> Police inspector-general Ranveer Kumar said the farmer was tilling his land when he was struck by the fighter jet which killed him instantly.
> 
> Sahoo blamed the crash -- the second involving an Indian MiG-27 since February 16 -- on an unspecified technical fault.
> 
> India grounded its fleet of single-seater Mig-25s, bought from the then Soviet Union in the 1980s, after the last crash.
> 
> But the military brought them back into operation in June after the aircraft were deemed to be "airworthy."
> 
> India hopes to replace its ageing fleet of Soviet-era fighter jets with 123 new military aircraft as part of a 12-billion-dollar purchase project.
> Copyright AFP (Agence France-Presse), 2010



Do most of you NOT *read the title* of a thread properly *before* posting??


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## razgriz19

santro said:


> Do most of you NOT *read the title* of a thread properly *before* posting??



isuggest u to make another thread "notify international aircraft crashes"


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## SQ8

razgriz19 said:


> isuggest u to make another thread "notify international aircraft crashes"



Well, generally it would be irrelevant to Pakistan, Otherwise we could keep posting stuff we get from AR's in AFM. 
So to me its fairly useless.
Doesn't concern me that much if an ultralight of the Ecuadorian Air force goes down.
However.. Ill pass on the idea..


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## Luftwaffe

Sorry guys instead of opening a thread I'll post here.

An airplane (suspected large plane) crashed coming from Karachi to Islamabad, News says hitting Margilla Hills. Stay tuned.


----------



## mshoaib61

Updated at: 1004 PST, Wednesday, July 28, 2010
ISLAMABAD: A mini-plane is reported to have been crashed into Margala Hills near Pakistani capital Islamabad on Wednesday morning, Geo news reported.

The authorities are still trying to determine the exact location of the crash site while it has also been feared that the plane was flying from Turkey.

Meanwhile, the plane crashed behind the mountainous range, Margalla Hills, behind Shah Faisal Mosque in Islamabad.


----------



## Luftwaffe

Updates...

Its not a small plane. It is a passenger plane, 152 people were on board.


----------



## mshoaib61

ISLAMABAD: A passenger plane crashed in the Margalla Hills in Islamabad on Wednesday, reports said.

More than 150 people were on board, an aviation spokesman said.


The plane was on its way from Turkey to Islamabad via Karachi, sources told DawnNews.

Police official Gulab Khan said the crash occurred in the Margalla Hills in Islamabad on Wednesday morning.

Rescue workers were heading to the scene.


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## fatman17

AIR BLUE A/C - 146 PERISHED
MAY ALLAH GRANT THEM PEACE IN JANNAT
VERY SAD DAY

I WILL BE OFF-LINE TODAY

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## duhastmish

god bless the soul of them who died.

very sad news indeed - 150 is a big number. i hope some survived.


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## GHOST RIDER

sword9 said:


> Due to our own good experience with the Mirage -2k



r u a pilot


----------



## mshoaib61

Updated at: 1106 PST, Wednesday, July 28, 2010
ISLAMABAD: Four dead bodies have been recovered from the site where a private airliner was crashed early on Wednesday, Geo News reported.


----------



## razgriz19

the plane was sirbus a321-200 of air blue

was attempting to land in heavy rain and fog, and reportedly lost radio contact with control tower


----------



## air marshal

Unfortunately all 146 passengers + 6 crew members have died in the accident, according to Interior Minister's statement.


----------



## air marshal

Everyone on board a passenger plane died when the Airbus 321 crashed in the hills of Islamabad while trying to land from Karachi, a cabinet minister said.

Civil Aviation Authority has set up a five-member inquiry committee to probe into Margalla aircrash.


----------



## Arsalan

> *152 Killed as Plane Crashes into Islamabad's Margalla Hills*
> Islamabad, July 28 (IANS) : All 152 on board a private Pakistani airline flight from Karachi were killed when the jet crashed amid heavy rain in the thickly wooded Margalla Hills near this Pakistani capital Wednesday morning.
> 
> Airblue flight 202, coming in from Turkey via Karachi, abruptly lost contact with the airport here and crashed near the popular Damanekoh resort at about 9.45 a.m., about two hours after it had taken off from Karachi.
> 
> Interior Minister Rehman Malik confirmed that nobody had survived the crash. There were 152 people on board the Airbus A-321, includng six crew members
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The wreckage turned into a ball of flame and plumes of thick smoke rose through the wet sky. A rescue official said he had seen burnt bodies and parts of the plane spread all over the Margalla valley in what is possibly Pakistan's worst air disaster.
> 
> Hampered by rain, rescue staff struggled to reach the crash site in an inaccessible and difficult terrain. The aircraft wreckage was spread in a wide area on both sides of the valley.
> 
> Over 100 bodies had been recovered, said Islamabad Police's Deputy Inspector General Binyamin. He added that identification of the bodies could be a problem.
> 
> The rescuers formed a three kilometre long human chain to evacuate the bodies. Heavy equipment required to cut through the debris of the aircraft struggled to reach the site.
> 
> A Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) flight had taken off from Islamabad for Karachi at about the same time but was diverted to Lahore because of bad weather.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eyewitnesses said they saw the ill-fated plane flying very low.
> 
> Saqlain Altaf told a Pakistani news channel that he was on a family outing in the hills that skirt Islamabad when he saw the plane, looking unsteady in the air.
> 
> "The plane had lost balance, and then we saw it going down," he said.
> 
> The armed forces were summoned to help in rescue efforts and emergency declared in the hospitals.
> 
> Civil Aviation spokesperson Pervez George said that flight was allowed go ahead after all necessary weather and technical checks. "The plane was flying from Karachi to Islamabad and it lost contact with us at around 9.45 local time (0445 GMT)."
> 
> Some of 159 confirmed passengers could not catch the flight as they were late.
> 
> But some were not so lucky. A couple on board had reportedly married just three days ago and were going to Islamabad on their honeymoon while six school children were travelling to Islamabad to attend a session of the youth parliament.
> 
> Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani cancelled his cabinet meeting and undertook an aerial survey of the crash site along with the chief ministers of Punjab, Sindh and Khyber-Pathtunkhwa.
> 
> The civil aviation authority formed an inquiry board headed by Air Commodore Abdul Majeed to probe the crash.
> 
> There were chaotic scenes at the airport here. Anxious relatives thronged the Benazir Bhutto International Airport to get information about their dear ones. A man cried inconsolably as he waited outside the airport to learn about the fate of the passengers.
> 
> The aircraft captain was Pervez Iqbal Chaudhary while Muntajibud Din was his co-pilot. Shazia Razzaq, Umme Habiba, Hina Usman and Naheed were the flight attendents



a dark day for the whole nation, 

may the souls of departed rest in peace 

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

CTV Edmonton - 152 dead in passenger jet crash near Islamabad - CTV News

---------- Post added at 01:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 01:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------






other vedio links:

No survivors as plane crash near Pakistan capital claims 152 lives | World news | guardian.co.uk


----------



## Arsalan

the accident site:






regards!


----------



## Arsalan

dreadfull sceans from other sites as well.

Allah ho Akbar,

may there souls rest in peace...










*Pakistani rescue worker search for survivors amid the wreckage of a plane that crashed in Islamabad, Pakistan on Wednesday, July 28, 2010. The passenger jet carrying 152 people crashed into the hills surrounding Pakistan's capital amid rain Wednesday, officials said. ((AP Photo))*


----------



## Machoman

Sad news, the black box can tell what exactly happend.


----------



## Arsalan




----------



## Arsalan

*DEVELOPING STORIES*



> 7 survivors found injured at plane crash site in Islamabad, Pakistan
> 
> English.news.cn 2010-07-28 15:13:08 FeedbackPrintRSS
> 
> Backgrounder: Major plane crashes in recent years
> 
> Backgrounder: Pakistani airline Airblue
> 
> 
> Police guard near the site a jetliner crashed near Islamabad, capital of Pakistan, July 28, 2010.(Xinhua/Zeeshan iyazi)
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD, July 28 (Xinhua)-- Seven survivors were found injured in the plane crash which took place on Wednesday morning in the Margalla Hills in Pakistan's capital Islamabad, sources on the site told Xinhua, adding the survivors have been rushed to hospital.
> 
> The tragedy took place at about 10:00 a.m. when an airbus flight of a Pakistani private airliner named Airblue, which reportedly carried 152 people including six crew members from Turkey to Islamabad via Karachi crashed behind the mountains of Margalla Hills lying to the northeast of the capital.
> 
> So far 20 dead bodies have been recovered from the crash site, said sources on the site, adding some of the dead bodies are still on fire. One of the dead bodies was identified as Barak or Barkat. No further details about the killed and survivors are available.
> 
> Latest news coming in said the body of the pilot has been found.
> 
> Two zoo keepers nearby the crash site sold Xinhua that they saw the plane taking very low flight brushing the trees on the ground and the pilots were trying desperately to take the nose up but failed.
> 
> Shortly after the incident happened, large number of rescue teams have been dispatched to the crash site. A total of seven military helicopters have been dispatched to join the rescue work. All the hospitals in Pakistan's capital Islamabad have declared emergency.



http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-07/28/c_13419096_2.htm


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## Dazzler

INNALLILAH-E-WA-INNA-ILAAH-E-RAAJEOON !!!


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## leonblack08

Inna lillah e wa inna ilaah e raajeoon.May Allah grant them jannat..


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## TOPGUN

Very sad news... ALLAH maf kara.. 5 years ago i flew from airblue from Isb to karachi. Anyhow a very sad day for all of us and for Pakistan. May ALLAH grant them peace in to JANNAT and there souls to rest in peace . A request to all members plzz do a prayer for them and the famlies thankyou GOD bless.


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## Indian-Devil

Its really a very sad news. May God grant peace to all who lost their lives and their families too..

This is some section where i hate to see new incident and news.

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## air marshal

*Squadron Leader (Retd) Muntajib, Co-Pilot of Airblue Airbus 321 crashed today in Islamabad. He flew F-16 and Mirage aircraft in PAF.*

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## mean_bird

very sad news 

Inna lillahi wa inna ilahay raje'oon


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## Dazzler

My friend's cousin was flight attendant in this flight. It is a sad day for entire nation !


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## air marshal




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## razgriz19

guyz its sad that many people lost their lives.....but wayyy more people die each day in pakistan of hunger, poverty etc

we can't prevent aircrashes even though they say air travel is one of the most safest way to travel!


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## air marshal




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## fatman17

there was this freshly graduated kid from swat who topped in MBA banking and had just got a job in NBP was amongst the victims of the air-crash - sad loss!


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## SQ8

Guy is asking very absurd questions.


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## air marshal




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## Justin Joseph

air marshal said:


> *Squadron Leader (Retd) Muntajib, Co-Pilot of Airblue Airbus 321 crashed today in Islamabad. He flew F-16 and Mirage aircraft in PAF.*



This means he was quite a experience pilot, RIP.


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## air marshal




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## marcos98

arsalanaslam123 said:


> *Pakistani rescue worker search for survivors amid the wreckage of a plane that crashed in Islamabad, Pakistan on Wednesday, July 28, 2010. The passenger jet carrying 152 people crashed into the hills surrounding Pakistan's capital amid rain Wednesday, officials said. ((AP Photo))*




very sad indeed......


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Inalillah e wa ina ilayhe rajeoon.

God bless em all and give patience to their loved ones.Ameen.
Great loss for Pakistan.


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## SummerWine

*
we can't prevent aircrashes even though they say air travel is one of the most safest way to travel*


i think they can be prevented if lessons are learnt theough fair and professional investigation, so that the same mistake isnt made turning into such a major tragic incident which leaves the whole nation depressed


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## razgriz19

*Blast heard in PIA plane at airport*

*KARACHI: A loud blast has been heard in an engine of PIA&#8217;s flight PK-747, a bowing commercial plane, when the airliner was preparing to take off at Jinnah International Airport.

Engine caught fire following blast as the fire and smoke is seen emitting from engine.

Explosion was reportedly happened when one of the engines suddenly started running in reverse, eyewitnesses said.

The flight was bound to Islamabad from Karachi meanwhile rescue vehicles and police mobile vans have arrived near plane to determine the loss of life or goods if happened.

PIA engineers said they will issue clearance after a thorough review of plane condition for operation of a flight.*


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## razgriz19

just heard on news, they say it was a bird that got suck into one of the engine!


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## razgriz19

SummerWine said:


> *
> we can't prevent aircrashes even though they say air travel is one of the most safest way to travel*
> 
> 
> i think they can be prevented if lessons are learnt theough fair and professional investigation, so that the same mistake isnt made turning into such a major tragic incident which leaves the whole nation depressed



ya ur rite and i believe lessons are being learned thats why u only see air crash 3-4 times a year! but they still cant prevent it....totally...

u kno wat they say donkeys kill more people(annually) than people die in plane crashes...


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## razgriz19

WTF IS GOING ON????????????????




PIA plane coming from Kabul escapes accident 






Just a day after an Airblue plane crashed into Margalla Hills in Islamabad killing all 152 people on board, a Pakistan International Airline plane coming from Kabul escaped an accident. 

The PIA flight PK-252 with 107 passengers aboard took off from Kabul airport on Thursday afternoon for Islamabad. 

According to a source in the Civil Aviation Authority, some &#8216;hard object&#8217; hit the plane, a Boeing 737, damaging its windscreen. 

&#8220;When it was approaching Islamabad airport the control tower asked the pilot to divert the flight to Lahore as weather was rough,&#8221; he said. The plane landed at the Allama Iqbal International Airport at 6.10pm. 

According to PIA spokesperson Yasmin Haroon, the sight panel&#8217;s outer cover of the windscreen cracked when it took off from Kabul. She said the plane did not make an emergency landing at Lahore airport. 

Ms Haroon said that passengers would leave for Islamabad on Friday at 9am

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...per/front-page/pia-plane-escapes-accident-070


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## sparklingway

*Another PIA plane apparently hit a bird while taxing at JIAP and the engine caught fire an hour or so ago. Flight was from Khi to Lhr. Passengers are safe.*


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## razgriz19

sparklingway said:


> *Another PIA plane apparently hit a bird while taxing at JIAP and the engine caught fire an hour or so ago. Flight was from Khi to Lhr. Passengers are safe.*



self deleted..


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## fatman17

sorry to quote this but they say "these things happen in bunches"


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## shehbazi2001

Pakistan is going through a long series of disasters and the recent airbus crash is both a tragedy and an enigma because A320 or A321 are one of the safest aircrafts to fly due to their Digital Fly by Wire control system. Even if the pilot is drunk, its difficult to go out of the allowed flight envelope of the aircraft. 

To understand the commercial airliners, a good documentary series is "FLYING HEAVY METAL" and below is a link to one of its episodes where the host flies an Airbus A320 and is pretty impressed by its Digital Flight Control System,






In this episode, the host flies the airbus towards mountains and then pulls up suddenly without increasing power. The aircraft increases power itself and gets the aircraft out of risk of stalling. If one tries to bank the aircraft more than 67 degrees (or allowed limit), the aircraft simply does not allow it. Other than that, there are ground proximity warning systems etc and its enigmatic to see that the aircraft hit the margalla hills. 

May be there is more than meets the eye.

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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> sorry to quote this but they say "these things happen in bunches"



well PIA is very lucky, last two accidents could be very deadly and u cant prevent those kinds....


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## air marshal




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## air marshal




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## air marshal




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## mean_bird

shehbazi2001 said:


> Pakistan is going through a long series of disasters and the recent airbus crash is both a tragedy and an enigma because A320 or A321 are one of the safest aircrafts to fly due to their Digital Fly by Wire control system. Even if the pilot is drunk, its difficult to go out of the allowed flight envelope of the aircraft.
> 
> To understand the commercial airliners, a good documentary series is "FLYING HEAVY METAL" and below is a link to one of its episodes where the host flies an Airbus A320 and is pretty impressed by its Digital Flight Control System,
> 
> YouTube - Flying Heavy Metal Episode Four: Safer Skies-Part 3 HQ
> 
> In this episode, the host flies the airbus towards mountains and then pulls up suddenly without increasing power. The aircraft increases power itself and gets the aircraft out of risk of stalling. If one tries to bank the aircraft more than 67 degrees (or allowed limit), the aircraft simply does not allow it. Other than that, there are ground proximity warning systems etc and its enigmatic to see that the aircraft hit the margalla hills.
> 
> May be there is more than meets the eye.




Please allow me to chip in with a few thoughts of mine.

As you pointed out, the Airbus family have pretty good and safe planes with lots of 'self-protection'. Saying a drunk pilot can pilot it is however a gross overstatement. I get it you do not mean it literally but only figuratively but even then, human errors have no bound and its hard to build a fool-proof machine.

We do not know what exactly happened and I am not trying to plane the pilot, but we must realize that human factors are the leading cause of air crashes around the world. 

All those safety features later, the first thing is it was in the wrong plane at the wrong altitude. Nobody knows why and whose fault that was. Given that there were no mayday calls, one would assume that the pilot was in perfect control of his plane and might have thought he is on the right path, or at least the former. Or it could be that he was too busy trying to find out what he needs to do while having no visual references because of the low cloud cover. This is referred to as loosing situational awareness--a very bad news when you are near a mountain. Its possible he miscalculated his speed, punched in some wrong figures in the computer, or was focused on something else but the end result is he did end up being away from where he was supposed to be.

Now comes the safety part. All these new technology are God sent for the lost pilot -- or are they? The computer is your best fried since it works out almost everything for you and flies the plane for you. Even when you are flying, it constantly monitors you and advises/warns you if necessary. But get confused by one or do something wrong and you'll be wondering what is happening. 

Add to that, more often than you would like to believe, a pilot will actually "disengage" that critical piece of technology that he need at this crucial time. In simpler words, there are pilots who actually disable things like ground proximity warnings, etc because they routinely fly close to mountains and all those alarms sounding are irritating. 

An example comes to mind (sorry cannot recall flight no.) where the pilot is thought to have disabled the circuit breaker that warns if a checklist is incomplete while trying to take off. Bad weather and ATC Comm. lead the pilots to forget extending the flaps while taking off resulting in the plane loosing lift and crashing. The point being that, in theory we can say the plane has a safety mechanism that would prevent the pilot doing so and assume the plane is 'safe' but its no use if the pilot (and pilots around the world routinely) pull out the circuit breaker. 

This flight reminds me of Air China Flight 129 and looks like an example of CFIT. Of course that is speculation at this state since we have no transcript of the CVR and/or ATC.

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## fatman17

the other thing is that airblue does not have their own dedicated ground engg crews. this activity is out-sourced to the PIA which is already under-staffed as many experienced engineers have left for greener pastures (eg, dubai).


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## Taha Samad

razgriz19 said:


> Blast heard in PIA plane at airport
> 
> KARACHI: A loud blast has been heard in an engine of *PIA&#8217;s flight PK-747, a bowing commercial plane*, when the airliner was preparing to take off at Jinnah International Airport.
> 
> Engine caught fire following blast as the fire and smoke is seen emitting from engine.
> 
> Explosion was reportedly happened when one of the engines suddenly started running in reverse, eyewitnesses said.
> 
> The flight was bound to Islamabad from Karachi meanwhile rescue vehicles and police mobile vans have arrived near plane to determine the loss of life or goods if happened.
> 
> PIA engineers said they will issue clearance after a thorough review of plane condition for operation of a flight.



I think you took it from geo.tv

Our stupid media

747 is type of aircraft and bowing (boeing)


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## Abu Zolfiqar

LOLLL @ ''bowing''


does geo news just pick up random people off the street to update their web news site??? For God's sakes.



by the way --it wasnt an explosion.


It was a birdstrike.


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## razgriz19

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> LOLLL @ ''bowing''
> 
> 
> does geo news just pick up random people off the street to update their web news site??? For God's sakes.
> 
> 
> 
> by the way --it wasnt an explosion.
> 
> 
> It was a birdstrike.



ya but the engine flamed out....so thats basically an explosion..


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## guru8904

razgriz19 said:


> ya but the engine flamed out....so thats basically an explosion..



Engine flame out is the stoppage of the combustion process in the engine due to lack/absence of either one or more out of air, fuel or ignition. It can not be regarded as an EXPLOSION by any standards.


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## Comet

Isn't this thread about PAF? Why PIA or any other civil aviation is discussed here?


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## air marshal

Just came across and find, Please enlighten with comments. Sorry dont know about the exact source?


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## Arsalan

air marshal said:


> Just came across and find, Please enlighten with comments. Sorry dont know about the exact source?



already under furious discussion on:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...32-margalah-plane-hijacked-5.html#post1058269

please no debate about this incedient over here. one may go to the relavent thread and discuss there:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...32-margalah-plane-hijacked-5.html#post1058269

regards!


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## Kompromat

^ 2 things to be noticed.

1: Who were those commandos ?
2: why didn't they flew the aircraft themselves ?


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## Arsalan

Black Blood said:


> ^ 2 things to be noticed.
> 
> 1: Who were those commandos ?
> 2: why didn't they flew the aircraft themselves ?



please move this discussion to:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...32-margalah-plane-hijacked-5.html#post1058269

we have notified the crash on this thread that was to discuss the crahs incedint. now what on earth caused this crash must not be discussed herer but at:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...32-margalah-plane-hijacked-5.html#post1058269

regards!


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## fatman17

PAF F-16 attrition list:

#1. 18 December 1986: F-16/B Block-15U #81-1504, Crashed in Sargodha while taking off due to wild-boar on runway and both pilots ejected safely. 

#2. 29 April 1987: F-16/A Block-15S #81-0918, Shot down in friendly fire while engaging enemy over Pakistan-Afghanistan border. 

#3. 4 September 1989: F-16/A Block-15Q #81-0916, Crashed minutes after take-off from Sargodha as pilot was disoriented and subsequently died in the crash. 

#4. 19 June 1991: F-16/A Block-15T #81-0921, Crashed near Kamra due to engine failure, subsequently forcing the pilot to eject. 

#5. 28 October 1991: F-16/A Block-15U #81-0923, Crashed near Attock due to engine failure during a dog-fight training mission, pilot ejected safely. 

#6. 10 November 1993: F-16/A Block-15N #81-0937, Crashed due to bird-hit, location of crash unknown, but pilots ejected safely. 

#7. 17 March 1994: F-16/A Block-15S #81-0919, Crashed near Sargodha, spatial disorientation caused the crash, pilot was killed. 

#8. 22 October 1994: F-16/A Block-15E #81-0899, Crashed near Sargodha, aircraft sustained bird-hit, pilot ejected safely. 

#9. 17 July 2009: F-16/A Block-15AQ/OCU, Crashed South-West of Sargodha on a night training mission, pilot was killed upon crash.

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## anathema

fatman17 said:


> PAF F-16 attrition list:
> 
> #1. 18 December 1986: F-16/B Block-15U #81-1504, Crashed in Sargodha while taking off due to wild-boar on runway and both pilots ejected safely.
> 
> #2. 29 April 1987: F-16/A Block-15S #81-0918, Shot down in friendly fire while engaging enemy over Pakistan-Afghanistan border.
> 
> #3. 4 September 1989: F-16/A Block-15Q #81-0916, Crashed minutes after take-off from Sargodha as pilot was disoriented and subsequently died in the crash.
> 
> #4. 19 June 1991: F-16/A Block-15T #81-0921, Crashed near Kamra due to engine failure, subsequently forcing the pilot to eject.
> 
> #5. 28 October 1991: F-16/A Block-15U #81-0923, Crashed near Attock due to engine failure during a dog-fight training mission, pilot ejected safely.
> 
> #6. 10 November 1993: F-16/A Block-15N #81-0937, Crashed due to bird-hit, location of crash unknown, but pilots ejected safely.
> 
> #7. 17 March 1994: F-16/A Block-15S #81-0919, Crashed near Sargodha, spatial disorientation caused the crash, pilot was killed.
> 
> #8. 22 October 1994: F-16/A Block-15E #81-0899, Crashed near Sargodha, aircraft sustained bird-hit, pilot ejected safely.
> 
> #9. 17 July 2009: F-16/A Block-15AQ/OCU, Crashed South-West of Sargodha on a night training mission, pilot was killed upon crash.



Fatman,

So how are these a/c's replenished for lack of a better term ? did PAF buy more a/c's to compensate for the loss ?


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## fatman17

anathema said:


> Fatman,
> 
> So how are these a/c's replenished for lack of a better term ? did PAF buy more a/c's to compensate for the loss ?



due to sanctions, there were no replacements.


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## GHOST RIDER

is any body a fighter pilot


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## fatman17

*Chopper in PM&#8217;s entourage makes crash landing*

ISLAMABAD: A helicopter carrying journalists and PM Yousaf Raza Gilani&#8217;s staff members survived a crash in the Nooriwal area of Neelum Valley. The helicopter, part of PM&#8217;s entourage en route to the Neelum Valley, made a crash landing. All people aboard survived the crash. Those on board included, among others, PM&#8217;s Press Secretary Shabir Anwar, his aide-de-camp Faisal, PPP Azad Jammu and Kashmir President Majeed and the CEO of a news agency. The helicopter was traced out after a four-hour search. *staff report*

_what was the type?_


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## alibaz

Now someone got an excuse that flying in helicopter is a life risk. Moral of story is don't go to flood victims. Zindigi Khappay

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## Horizon303

It was AW139
AW-139 - Pakistan Defence Gallery


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## fatman17

Horizon303 said:


> It was AW139
> AW-139 - Pakistan Defence Gallery



how do u know?


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## Horizon303

Through news chnnel fottage.

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## F86 Saber

MILITARY FREAK[HASSAN];1066668 said:


> is any body a fighter pilot



Yup, there are loads of them in the Pakistan Air Force........





................................


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## alibaz

alibaz said:


> Now someone got an excuse that flying in helicopter is a life risk. Moral of story is don't go to flood victims. Zindigi Khappay



My advise is again confirmed, Rehman Malik had an emergency landing


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## GUNNER

A Mushak trainer aircraft of Pakistan army aviation has crashed near Quetta. The pilot and co-pilot of the aircraft have reportedly been killed in the crash. The cause of the crash is not known.


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## Indian-Devil

This is really a sad news. RIP to the pilot and co pilot. 
May God bless their soul in peace.


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## SSGPA1

May Allah bless their souls and bless their families with patience to face this tragic loss.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

a sad day for PAF and whole Pakistani Nation.

May Allah SWT bring comfort and blessing to their loved ones & to their friends and colleagues.





*&#1575;&#1606;&#1575; &#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1575;&#1606;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;*


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## Taygibay

Got the sad news on another forum.
R.I.P. for the pilots and support and thanks
to the families whom gave up their heroes.

Those servicemen did what they were called to.
Lets us honor them by behaving the same.

Tay.


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## Windjammer

QUETTA: A training plane of Army Aviation crashed near Muslim Bagh area of district Qila Saifullah near Quetta, killing pilot and co-pilot, Geo News reported Wednesday.

According to sources, the plane was flying from Zhob to Quetta, when it crashed in mountains in Nasai area of Muslim Bagh, killing pilot and co-pilot on the spot.

According to initial reports, the mishap occurred owing to some technical fault.

DPO Qila Saifullah said the local people, who witnessed the plane coming down, informed the administration, saying the rescue teams have been dispatched towards the crash site.

According to ISPR, rescue teams from Quetta left for Muslim Bagh.
Army plane crashes; pilots dead

Alas, we will never forget..........


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## Areesh

Windjammer said:


> Alas, we will never forget..........



Indeed we will never forget these martyrs.


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## fatman17

RIP Brave Soldiers!


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## sshahbazi

I am extremely saddened to hear about Fl. Lt. Imran Tariq. I only met him once that I can remember, and I believe it was the night before his father's crash. I was five years old at that time, so please excuse if I am not perfectly accurate about this, but I believe this was at his sister's third birthday party. It was at the Officer's Mess at the AFB Masroor. The reason the memory of the 6 month (to 1 year) old Imran is so permanently imprinted in me is because he pulled my hair so hard that evening that I still shudder when I think about it. The kid had an iron grip! He only let go when his father came and rescued me.

My father (a Wing Commander at that time) was commanding the 18th Squadron of F-86s at Masroor. Fl. Lt. Tariq was his second in command. My father was to do a solo aerobatics program at the 14 August celebrations. The base commander Masroor (I think it was Air Crd. Changezi, but not sure) had asked my father to demo his routine to him that day so an F-86 was readied for that flight. As I understand it, that demo was cancelled at the last minute as the base commander became unavailable. Fl. Lt. Nasim was his backup for the 14th August program. He called Fl. Lt. Nasim and asked him to go ahead and practice his routines since he was not able to fly, and the F-86 was available, fueled and ready to go.

I guess it was not much later, that I was sitting on the front steps of our house. This was the bottom floor of the old barrack style houses that were lined up next to a triangle shaped park (it was the 16/1 block). I guess if you have spent time in Masroor, you would know what I am talking about. It was a loud explosion that shook me up. I ran inside to my mother in the kitchen, asking her what had happened. She of course had heard it too and was busy on the phone trying to get a hold of anyone who may know what had happened. Eventually I remember her telling me that Tariq Uncle had crashed and passed. I remember being sorry that I had been upset with Imran the night before and now the poor kid had lost his dad.

As I understand it, the F-86 had stress fractures, and the wing buckled during high G aerobatic maneuvers. The 18th Squadron was grounded, and that was the last of the F-86s in PAF. My thoughts and prayers go out to Mrs. Nasim. My mother has told me about the hardship she bore after her husband's demise and yet did a fantastic job in raising a son who, like his father, gave his life in service to his country. Pakistanis in this time of chaos, need to recognize their heroism even more and honor Mrs. Nasim for her sacrifices.

My father passed away four years ago, or I would have been able to give very accurate details of this event.

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## Mughal-Prince

sshahbazi said:


> I am extremely saddened to hear about Fl. Lt. Imran Tariq. I only met him once that I can remember, and I believe it was the night before his father's crash. I was five years old at that time, so please excuse if I am not perfectly accurate about this, but I believe this was at his sister's third birthday party. It was at the Officer's Mess at the AFB Masroor. The reason the memory of the 6 month (to 1 year) old Imran is so permanently imprinted in me is because he pulled my hair so hard that evening that I still shudder when I think about it. The kid had an iron grip! He only let go when his father came and rescued me.
> 
> My father (a Wing Commander at that time) was commanding the 18th Squadron of F-86s at Masroor. Fl. Lt. Tariq was his second in command. My father was to do a solo aerobatics program at the 14 August celebrations. The base commander Masroor (I think it was Air Crd. Changezi, but not sure) had asked my father to demo his routine to him that day so an F-86 was readied for that flight. As I understand it, that demo was cancelled at the last minute as the base commander became unavailable. Fl. Lt. Nasim was his backup for the 14th August program. He called Fl. Lt. Nasim and asked him to go ahead and practice his routines since he was not able to fly, and the F-86 was available, fueled and ready to go.
> 
> I guess it was not much later, that I was sitting on the front steps of our house. This was the bottom floor of the old barrack style houses that were lined up next to a triangle shaped park (it was the 16/1 block). I guess if you have spent time in Masroor, you would know what I am talking about. It was a loud explosion that shook me up. I ran inside to my mother in the kitchen, asking her what had happened. She of course had heard it too and was busy on the phone trying to get a hold of anyone who may know what had happened. Eventually I remember her telling me that Tariq Uncle had crashed and passed. I remember being sorry that I had been upset with Imran the night before and now the poor kid had lost his dad.
> 
> As I understand it, the F-86 had stress fractures, and the wing buckled during high G aerobatic maneuvers. The 18th Squadron was grounded, and that was the last of the F-86s in PAF. My thoughts and prayers go out to Mrs. Nasim. My mother has told me about the hardship she bore after her husband's demise and yet did a fantastic job in raising a son who, like his father, gave his life in service to his country. Pakistanis in this time of chaos, need to recognize their heroism even more and honor Mrs. Nasim for her sacrifices.
> 
> My father passed away four years ago, or I would have been able to give very accurate details of this event.



Salute to all those who are Martyred in the line of duty  ... and they shall remain in our hearts forever ... and nation will respect them till the end of time ...


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## fatman17

*Military helicopter crashes in Islamabad, Pakistan*

March 10, 2011

All the three crew members aboard a military helicopter survived when the chopper crashed Thursday morning in the southern part of Pakistan's capital Islamabad, reported PTV, a local state-owned Urdu TV channel.

According to the report, the accident took place at about 11:00 am (local time) when the military helicopter crashed in the Berma Pull area of Islamabad shortly after it took off from a military camp located on the outskirts of the capital.

An army rescue team reached the site shortly after the plane crashed.

Local media reports quoted army sources as saying that the crash of the helicopter was due to technical problems.

Details about the survived crew members as well as the helicopter itself are not immediately available.

Source: Xinhua


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## ejaz007

*Small plane makes emergency landing* 

Updated at: 1116 PST, Thursday, March 10, 2011
ISLAMABAD: A small plane made emergency landing near Lethrar Road, Geo News reported. 

Small plane makes emergency landing - GEO.tv


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## fatman17

Army helicopter makes crash landing

ISLAMABAD: A small helicopter of Army Aviation made an emergency landing on Lehtrar Road in the vicinity of Koral Police Station on Thursday. The three-seater Acquirell of Army Aviation after flying from aviations Dhamyal Base Rawalpindi developed some technical fault, which forced the pilot to make emergency landing on Lehtrar Road. All the three personnel on board including Pilot, Co-pilot and a crewmember remained unhurt during the landing. staff report

you know what caused this?

a squirrel !!!


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## mshoaib61



Reactions: Like Like:
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## Jango

i was was wondering whether the aircraft crashes reports are made public to the true causes.....for example if a pilot does some really stupid thing and crashes the plane but the spokesman says that it was a mechanical problem.....what exactly is the cause of this......AND DOES SOMEBODY KNOW ABOUT THE BELL 412 CRASH IN BANNU WHICH CRASHED IN THE WATER WITH TWO CAPTAIns OR MAJORS AT THE HELM????


----------



## Mutee

I don't think it's made public


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> i was was wondering whether the aircraft crashes reports are made public to the true causes.....for example if a pilot does some really stupid thing and crashes the plane but the spokesman says that it was a mechanical problem.....what exactly is the cause of this......AND DOES SOMEBODY KNOW ABOUT THE BELL 412 CRASH IN BANNU WHICH CRASHED IN THE WATER WITH TWO CAPTAIns OR MAJORS AT THE HELM????



most all a/c crashes/incidents are reported in the media including the bannu incident. AFAIK the PA has so far lost 2 Bells, 2 Cobras, 1 Puma and 2 Mi-17s to various accidents in the WoT.


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## Jango

what was the reported cause of the bell 412 crash in bannu???...which crashed in the dam.


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> what was the reported cause of the bell 412 crash in bannu???...which crashed in the dam.



technical failure it was - now most all inquiry reports on the causes are never made public.


----------



## Jango

i can assure you 130% that it was not technical failure


----------



## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> i can assure you 130% that it was not technical failure



Whatever were the reasons, there are some facts that may be attributed to crash. Army Aviation helicopters are not equipped with emergency flotation gear, therefore they are not authorized to fly over water bodies. The ill fated aircraft was flying over water reservoir, in violation of procedures.
I happen to talk to someone in Army Aviation, and he describes that Bell 412 was flying low over the dam. Now every helicopter is to fly at a safe height (unless necessitates by operation requirement). it is because, if helicopter engine fails, the helo may safely autorotate and glide away to a safe landing place. but if maintaining low altitude over water, and for some reason, your engine goes, there is no otherway then to ditch the helicopter in water.
Remember, unlike Navy, Army aviators does not wear any life jackets, thus ditching a helicopter in water and then swim away, chances are slim.

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## fatman17

Blackpearl said:


> Whatever were the reasons, there are some facts that may be attributed to crash. Army Aviation helicopters are not equipped with emergency flotation gear, therefore they are not authorized to fly over water bodies. The ill fated aircraft was flying over water reservoir, in violation of procedures.
> I happen to talk to someone in Army Aviation, and he describes that Bell 412 was flying low over the dam. Now every helicopter is to fly at a safe height (unless necessitates by operation requirement). it is because, if helicopter engine fails, the helo may safely autorotate and glide away to a safe landing place. but if maintaining low altitude over water, and for some reason, your engine goes, there is no otherway then to ditch the helicopter in water.
> Remember, unlike Navy, Army aviators does not wear any life jackets, thus ditching a helicopter in water and then swim away, chances are slim.



thanks for the info!


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## Jango

thr heli was on a routine patrol and it was not in the flight plan to go near the water reservoir....the pilots were put on a holding pattern for sometime adn to wsate time the pilots decided to do something which i am not going to say above the dam.....

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------

the heli was perfectly fine.


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## Blackpearl

nuclearpak said:


> thr heli was on a routine patrol and it was not in the flight plan to go near the water reservoir....the pilots were put on a holding pattern for sometime adn to wsate time the pilots decided to do something which i am not going to say above the dam.....
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------
> 
> the heli was perfectly fine.


 
so it was a human error.............


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## Jango

it was not human error rather it was human stupidity.....i feel sorry to say that for two dead people.....but that was the cause...they thought that they were stuntmen!


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## flameboard

A plane crashed in Central Ordinance Depot in Karachi, either on premises or surrounding areas.

The plane crashed on 23 May 1957, thats my guess as the date is written as 23 May 57. This is important someone please tell me which plane crashed, and pilot name or any other information. 

This might be a military plane rather than air force, but I'm not sure.


It's really important please ask around if you have any contacts.

I went to this website which has a list of all PAF crashes but this one is not there. >>>> http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/country-by-country/pakistan.htm <<<<

If you want to know why I want to know, well you will find out the reason as soon as you get info on the crash its a remarkable story, whoever gets it to you will prob tell you anyway so please if you have any contacts or if you yourself can go thought crash files, please let me know.


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## Mutee

I think it was a hit air ballon or I can be totally wrong


----------



## graphican

What kind of title it was? God Forbid something that will happen. If you are referring to a past accident, reflect that in the title.

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## Qasibr

Indeed, please mention in your title that this is a *historic* plane crash or something. 

You should not look for alarmist titles and shock value to mislead people, just to raise the view count or something. Perhaps you made an honest mistake - in that case, please change your title.


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## mike bennett

Dear Forum Members,
I have begun updating some of my older web pages concerning military aircraft losses.
I have reviewed the page of Pakistan F-16 mishaps.
I am still missing many names and photos of the pliots. If you can help please let me know.
Please visit
List being compiled
I can be contacted at mbenshar@aol.com and the reults will be made known to the forum members.
Best regards
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk


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## flameboard

Qasibr said:


> Indeed, please mention in your title that this is a *historic* plane crash or something.
> 
> You should not look for alarmist titles and shock value to mislead people, just to raise the view count or something. Perhaps you made an honest mistake - in that case, please change your title.


 
I can't change my title I don't know how. BTW anyone get any info yet?


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## james1122

Its sad they must try to check these accidents


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## mike bennett

The only information I have on this loss is little more than you have already put.

Thursday 23rd May 1957
Pakistan Air Force
jet training aircraft
Crashed on Air Force on Central Ordinance Depot in Karachi. 10 killed, 15 seriously injured



I'll keep searching
Regards
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk
mbenshar@aol.com

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## fatman17

mike bennett said:


> The only information I have on this loss is little more than you have already put.
> 
> Thursday 23rd May 1957
> Pakistan Air Force
> jet training aircraft
> Crashed on Air Force on Central Ordinance Depot in Karachi. 10 killed, 15 seriously injured
> 
> 
> 
> I'll keep searching
> Regards
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk
> mbenshar@aol.com



T-33 were based at Mauripur (Masroor) in those days!

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## mike bennett

fatman17 said:


> T-33 were based at Mauripur (Masroor) in those days!


 
I can't think of any other jet trainer used by the PAF in that period. I know the jet types being used were Attackers and the newly arrived F-86s but I don't think the trainer versions were ever used in the Air Force. I may be wrong.
If the aircraft was a T-33, which seems likely, were there two on board or a solo flight.
Does anyone on the forum have connections with the PAF Records who could shed some light on Lockheed T-33 losses in Pakistan service or have notes of a fatality in the PAF for that date?

Regards
Mike
www.ejection-history.org.uk


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## netgeek

Just heard of a Heli Crash in Abbotabad, is all fine ? any update ?


----------



## umair86pk

a US apache went down while attacking OBL hideout


----------



## Solomon2

No U.S. casualties reported in the OBL operation.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

a PAF Mirage aircraft went down around Jhang, apparently due to tech. issues

pilot ejected...extracted, safe.


----------



## arihant

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> a PAF Mirage aircraft went down around Jhang, apparently due to tech. issues
> 
> pilot ejected...extracted, safe.


 
When it happen ?


----------



## marcos98

PAF jet crashes near Jhang
ONLINE - International News Network

JHANG: A pilot survived Tuesday when a Pakistan Air Force fighter jet crashed near Jhang in the central Province of Punjab. The aircraft crashed at Muza Jannan, in Kot Shakir, near Jhang.

The jet, which took off at Rafiqi airbase, was on operational training exercise at Thal when it crashed. On the other hand, the statement issued by Pakistan Air Force said that a Mirage fighter aircraft, while on a routine operational training mission, crashed near Thal.

The Pilot of the aircraft Amad ejected safely, no loss of civilian life or property has been reported on ground.

A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident. Sources informed Online technical fault was the reason behind the crash of jet fighter.


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## paritosh

in the longer run....the cost of a pilot's life is much more valuable than the hardware he flies.
good that he'd survived.


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## Silk

This shows that the Mirages are getting more and more problem. You can buy every spare art in the world. You can do maintenance like no other. You can train your pilots like no other. You will still see more accidents. This pretty much explains that the next squadron to get JF17 is a Mirage squadron. Not an F7 squadron. This also shows that we should not act negative when Indian Mig21 crashes. Old planes are bad. And I am glad that pilots survive these accidents. Both sides.


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## Manticore

i read somewhere that it was not a ROSE upgraded mirage..


----------



## razgriz19

ANTIBODY said:


> i read somewhere that it was not a ROSE upgraded mirage..


 
u dont have to justify or defend the crash..
doesn't matter if it was a ROSE upgraded mirage or not. first of all the engine is same and was not upgraded so its old. and second we DONT have proper spares, dassault is not making any more parts for it and so we get spare parts from older mirages or from other countries...

bottom line is the aircraft is old and needs to be replaced!
mirage should be the next one to get replaced after A-5s. F-7s can still fly as they are not that old compare to mirage 3 and 5.


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## Jango

a pakistan army aviation heli also crashed....in tarbela...a SM was shaheed adn a colonel is injured...what heli was it??...it also happened the same day as the mirage incident.


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## fatman17

*Mirage IIIRP*

Delivered;13 
Current;10
Lost;3

Pakistan Air Force 
- Note: The most recent attrition losses involving unidentified Mirage III and/or 5 variants have occurred on 15th February 2008, 18th March 2008 & 3rd May 2011 (during which the pilot safely ejected), respectively.


----------



## fatman17

*IAR-330SM Puma* 

Pakistan Army Aviation Corps
Delivered;7
Current;6
Lost;1
On Order;7

- In service from 2010

- Note: At least 7 Pumas, that have been upgraded by IAR in Romania, were acquired from the UAE during 2009. It is strongly believed that a total of 14 examples are being acquired. An attrition loss is reported to have occurred on 3rd May 2011, resulting in one fatality & 4 injuries to those aboard. 

- Located at 21 Army Aviation Squadron, 28 Army Aviation Squadron


----------



## RPK

Military personnel killed in helicopter crash in Pakistan


*Military personnel killed in helicopter crash in Pakistan*


Islamabad: A combat jet and an army helicopter crashed in two separate incidents in Pakistan on Tuesday, killing one military personnel and injuring four others, officials said.

A Mirage combat jet on a training flight crashed near a firing range at Thal in Punjab province.

The pilot ejected safely and there were no reports of casualties on the ground. An air force spokesman said an inquiry had been ordered to ascertain the cause of the crash.

A Puma helicopter of the Pakistan Army crash-landed near Tarbela in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province this evening.

One member of the crew was killed and four others were injured.

The helicopter was on a training flight when it came down due to a technical fault, the military said.


----------



## fatman17

rpraveenkum said:


> Military personnel killed in helicopter crash in Pakistan
> 
> 
> *Military personnel killed in helicopter crash in Pakistan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islamabad: A combat jet and an army helicopter crashed in two separate incidents in Pakistan on Tuesday, killing one military personnel and injuring four others, officials said.
> 
> A Mirage combat jet on a training flight crashed near a firing range at Thal in Punjab province.
> 
> The pilot ejected safely and there were no reports of casualties on the ground. An air force spokesman said an inquiry had been ordered to ascertain the cause of the crash.
> 
> A Puma helicopter of the Pakistan Army crash-landed near Tarbela in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province this evening.
> 
> One member of the crew was killed and four others were injured.
> 
> The helicopter was on a training flight when it came down due to a technical fault, the military said.



same incidents as above!


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## RPK

fatman17 said:


> same incidents as above!



Yes Sir I Posted know due to know the reason why & where it is crashed.


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## Arsalan

PAF Mushaq trainer aircraft crashed near Guhar Khan (Near Rawalpindi).

the new just broke on TV but details are yet to come.

he sad part is that both pilots on board are reported killed.

may there soul of martyred pilots rest in peace. 
Amen!


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## Arsalan

none of our media is reporting this news and when the do anything wrong media will go barking for days!!
this is bull 5hit!
all media is busy covering the MQM resignations, a55 holes!


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## SQ8

Guhar or Gujjar Khan??


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## fatman17

very sad news! God Bless them!


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## Najam Khan

Very sad incident, May Allah bless these souls. Amen!

BTW is it confirmed that it was PAF mushshak? If yes it would be a liaison a/c from Chaklala else its from PA.


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## fatman17

*Pakistan Army Aviation Corps*


MFI-17 Mushshak


- Note: Around 300 built: mostly delivered to Pakistan AF & Army, although exact quantities are unconfirmed to date. A confirmed attrition loss occurred on 13th August 2008, resulting in a single fatality, whilst another example was lost (causing 2 fatalities) on 12th September 2009. A further confirmed loss occurred on 8th April 2010, resulting in the death of the sole occupant. A Mushshak was reported as having been "damaged" on the ground due to a rocket attack at Peshawar on 31st May 2010. The most recent loss occurred on 28th June 2011, resulting in 2 fatalities. 

- Owned by 1 Army Aviation Squadron, 10 Army Aviation Squadron, 11 Army Aviation Squadron, 12 Army Aviation Squadron, 13 Army Aviation Squadron, 2 (Composite) Army Aviation Squadron, 202nd Aviation Group, 3 Army Aviation Squadron, 303rd Aviation Group, 404th Aviation Group, 7 Army Aviation Squadron, 8 (Composite) Army Aviation Squadron, 9 (Composite) Army Aviation Squadron, HQ Flight, HQ Flight

AFI

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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan Army Aviation Corps*
> 
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> 
> - Note: Around 300 built: mostly delivered to Pakistan AF & Army, although exact quantities are unconfirmed to date. A confirmed attrition loss occurred on 13th August 2008, resulting in a single fatality, whilst another example was lost (causing 2 fatalities) on 12th September 2009. A further confirmed loss occurred on 8th April 2010, resulting in the death of the sole occupant. A Mushshak was reported as having been "damaged" on the ground due to a rocket attack at Peshawar on 31st May 2010.* The most recent loss occurred on 28th June 2011, resulting in 2 fatalities. *



Thanks, that answers my question.

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## S.M.R

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan Army Aviation Corps*
> 
> 
> MFI-17 Mushshak
> 
> 
> - Note: Around 300 built: mostly delivered to Pakistan AF & Army, although exact quantities are unconfirmed to date. A confirmed attrition loss occurred on 13th August 2008, resulting in a single fatality, whilst another example was lost (causing 2 fatalities) on 12th September 2009. A further confirmed loss occurred on 8th April 2010, resulting in the death of the sole occupant. A Mushshak was reported as having been "damaged" on the ground due to a rocket attack at Peshawar on 31st May 2010. The most recent loss occurred on 28th June 2011, resulting in 2 fatalities.
> 
> - Owned by 1 Army Aviation Squadron, 10 Army Aviation Squadron, 11 Army Aviation Squadron, 12 Army Aviation Squadron, 13 Army Aviation Squadron, 2 (Composite) Army Aviation Squadron, 202nd Aviation Group, 3 Army Aviation Squadron, 303rd Aviation Group, 404th Aviation Group, 7 Army Aviation Squadron, 8 (Composite) Army Aviation Squadron, 9 (Composite) Army Aviation Squadron, HQ Flight, HQ Flight
> 
> AFI


 
How come there is no news within Army. The news was published in yesterdays Jang. I called one of my friend who flies smaller planes of PA. the news was confusing first it discussed plane crash and then it discussed the car accident.


----------



## razgriz19

T-37 is about the same size as mushak, and they have an ejection seat for pilots to bailout during emergencies. why cant they put ejection seats on mushak too! or is it too small?


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> T-37 is about the same size as mushak, and they have an ejection seat for pilots to bailout during emergencies. why cant they put ejection seats on mushak too! or is it too small?



big difference between the T37 and Mushak - its not abt size. Mushak is a light a/c as compared to the Tweet.


----------



## fatman17

S.M.R said:


> How come there is no news within Army. The news was published in yesterdays Jang. I called one of my friend who flies smaller planes of PA. the news was confusing first it discussed plane crash and then it discussed the car accident.



the army has a very bad PR department


----------



## ghazi52

Very sad. 
May Allah rest them in peace. Ameen


----------



## Windjammer

razgriz19 said:


> T-37 is about the same size as mushak, and they have an ejection seat for pilots to bailout during emergencies. why cant they put ejection seats on mushak too! or is it too small?


 
Two different kettle of Fish, one is a piston driven basic training aircraft with only 23 feet in length, while the T-37 is a 30 feet long twin jet primary trainer and light attack aircraft.

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## Silk

Windjammer said:


> Two different kettle of Fish, one is a piston driven basic training aircraft with only 23 feet in length, while the T-37 is a 30 feet long twin jet primary trainer and light attack aircraft.


 
two jet engines versus one piston... Just look at the weight difference!


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## fatman17

light a/c generally dont have ejection seats


----------



## DarK-LorD

RIP to the Dead.


----------



## fatman17

reports of a mushak crash-landing near g/wala - crew survives!


----------



## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> reports of a mushak crash-landing near g/wala - crew survives!


 

Thank GOD the crew survived ..


----------



## @rrows

no news in either print or electronic media.


----------



## fatman17

@rrows said:


> no news in either print or electronic media.



i heard it on Express 24/7 english channel - i hope i am wrong!


----------



## Areesh

Just read on Twitter that a F-7 of PAF has crashed near Bhakkar. Waiting for more details. I hope the pilot is safe.


----------



## Aslan

What the hell a few moments ago a heli had to make emergency landing and now this. What going on.


----------



## Areesh

Aslan said:


> What the hell a few moments ago a heli had to make emergency landing and now this. What going on.


 
Sh!t happens. I am concerned about pilot's safety.


----------



## [--Leo--]

please soon as possible update the details m waiting i wonder what happened


----------



## DarK-LorD

DAWN is saying a lady pilot is injured.
DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, world news, business, sport and multimedia.


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## Patriot

As long as Pilot is safe we should not be too worried.Pilot is far more important and F7's are quite old anyway.


----------



## Patriot

> Lady pilot injured as PAF plane crashes near Bhakkar


I hope she suffered minor injuries only and not life threatening.


----------



## [--Leo--]

Areesh said:


> Sh!t happens. I am concerned about pilot's safety.




Good news it was lady pilot who is total safe and sound but aircraft total crushed


----------



## Patriot

[--Leo--];2026868 said:


> Good news it was lady pilot who is total safe and sound but aircraft total crushed


 It's a old plane man i think pilot is worth more then this plane!!These will be replaced by JF-17 anyway.


----------



## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

If she is safe then alhumdulillah , jahaz or bhi a jain gay agar hamara un choron say wasta choot gaya ( corrupt mafia in our country )

TARIQ


----------



## Areesh

[--Leo--];2026868 said:


> Good news it was lady pilot who is total safe and sound but aircraft total crushed



If the pilot is safe then nothing to worry about.


----------



## [--Leo--]

Patriot said:


> It's a old plane man i think pilot is worth more then this plane!!These will be replaced by JF-17 anyway.



I agree All the planes should be fly by wire


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## Mani2020

That would have been earlier version of F-7 , they are too damn old to fly . but i must say our mirages are also old but they have good safety record as compared to f-7's.too damn hard machine to fly .

Isn't it poor on the part of the female pilot to assign her f-7 which is one of the most difficult aircrafts to fly , why not assign her mirages .

Anyway i hope she will be safe and flying again


----------



## Patriot

Mani2020 said:


> That would have been earlier version of F-7 , they are too damn old to fly . but i must say our mirages are also old but they have good safety record as compared to f-7's.too damn hard machine to fly .
> 
> Isn't it poor on the part of the female pilot to assign her f-7 which is one of the most difficult aircrafts to fly , why not assign her mirages .
> 
> Anyway i hope she will be safe and flying again


Well Typically Every Fighter Pilot in PAF Goes through this training (Read in a book written by Ex-PAF Pilot) 
Trainer Air Craft > F7 > Mirage > F16 .JF-17 Pilots are experienced drivers of F16 and Mirages.There are very very few extra ordinary young pilots who get to the F16 very soon.


----------



## air marshal

*PAF F-7 crashed in Mianwali, Flying Officer Nida of 123 GD(P) ejected safely but got injuries.*


----------



## Mani2020

Patriot said:


> Well Typically Every Fighter Pilot in PAF Goes through this training (Read in a book written by Ex-PAF Pilot)
> Trainer Air Craft > F7 > Mirage > F16 .JF-17 Pilots are experienced drivers of F16 and Mirages.There are very very few extra ordinary young pilots who get to the F16 very soon.


 
Yeah i know that , the journey starts from the mushak and ends on f-16's and very soon will be on FC-20's , but still there should be little bit of flexibility .but still its where the professionalism comes in and PAF are very professional in that regard ,rules are rules and everyone has to abide it. i m hoping for these f-7's to retire soon though they have much less or negligible falling record as compared to our rivals but still among PAF fighters they are the one falling most .

In one of the previous F-7 crashes there seem to be not much of pilot's fault the plane took off from the runway and withing seconds of taking of it turned into flames and was swinging like a big bear in the sky . 

As far as i m concerned i heard that the next jf-17 squadron will replace the old mirages , i think mirages have been lot safer than old version of f-7's so after this crash PAF might think other way round.


----------



## Aamir Hussain

How many F-7's have crashed in PAF service to date?


----------



## Windjammer

*If I am not mistaken the female pilot on the right is called Nida who may have been involved in this accident.*


----------



## AHMED85

Really sad news..........


----------



## Tehmasib

BHAKKAR: One civilian was killed and a female pilot was reportedly injured when a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) plane crashed near Bhakkar on Monday.

According to sources, the plane was on a routine flight this morning. The male pilot, who reportedly managed to eject and land safely using a parachute, is still missing and a search operation is underway.

The injured female pilot has been taken to the local hospital. One civilian was reportedly killed in the &#8216;blast&#8217; which occurred after the crash, Express 24/7 reported.

Local administration has cordoned off the area and relief activities have begun.

Army and police have directed the locals to stay away from the site of the crash.

The reason for the crash has not yet been revealed.


----------



## Windjammer

Guys, the ISPR, confirms that the female pilot is safe and there was no other damage to life or property on the ground.

The aircraft, an F-7 suffered from some technical malfunction.

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## satishkumarcsc

Mani2020 said:


> That would have been earlier version of F-7 , they are too damn old to fly . but i must say our mirages are also old but they have good safety record as compared to f-7's.too damn hard machine to fly .
> 
> Isn't it poor on the part of the female pilot to assign her f-7 which is one of the most difficult aircrafts to fly , why not assign her mirages .
> 
> Anyway i hope she will be safe and flying again


 
Well the MiG 21 family has a terrible track record of low altitude flight, problems with autrotation if the aircraft does a 360 degree roll in less than a second and above all the very high stall speed of aircraft. These were the main reasons for crashes caused because of human error.

And I hope the pilot recovers soon and gets back to duty and I hope she/he dosen't turn down their wings after this ordeal.

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## Tehmasib

sad news ......i called to my friend( Dr of Distt Hosp) who is in Bhakkar he said she is good not serious .......very very sad news


----------



## ZaYYaF

Good to hear that the pilot is safe, and hope that no life was lost where the craft crashed.


----------



## Areesh

Tehmasib said:


> sad news ......i called to my friend( Dr of Distt Hosp) who is in Bhakkar he said she is good not serious .......very very sad news


 
This is a sad news?


----------



## Mani2020

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well the MiG 21 family has a terrible track record of low altitude flight, problems with autrotation if the aircraft does a 360 degree roll in less than a second and above all the very high stall speed of aircraft. These were the main reasons for crashes caused because of human error.
> 
> And I hope the pilot recovers soon and gets back to duty and I hope she/he dosen't turn down their wings after this ordeal.


 
Yes , a really un-forgiving aircraft specially for the new bees . Toughest thing to fly specially at lower altitude


----------



## satishkumarcsc

Mani2020 said:


> Yes , a really un-forgiving aircraft specially for the new bees . Toughest thing to fly specially at lower altitude


 
The main problem is the high take-off and landing speeds. This makes the aircraft almost impossible to manuver and react if there is any problem and before you know it it is too late. And above all the speed at which you eject is another matter of concern.

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## rockstarIN

Mig-21 series sucks..still PAF & IAF rookies has to go thru it..


----------



## Arsalan

well a bit of a good news that the Pilot is safe:


> *PAF F-7 fighter aircraft crashes near Bhakkar*
> ISLAMABAD, Aug 15 (APP): A F-7 Fighter Aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed close to *Kalur Kot Khakkar (Mianwali training area) *due to technical malfunction on Monday. According to PAF, the woman pilot of the aircraft, *Flying Officer Nida ejected safely.* The aircraft was on a routine operational training mission. No loss of civilian life or property has been reported. A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident.


Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan&#039;s Premier NEWS Agency ) - PAF F-7 fighter aircraft crashes near Bhakkar

also note that as per Geo it was a twin seater variant and both the pilot and co-pilot ejected safely with the pilot, Flying Officer Nida sustaining minor injuries.


> * PAF plane crashes near Bhakkar*
> BHAKKAR: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) plane crashed 90 km away from Bhakkar on Monday, Geo News reported. According to PAF spokesman, the F-7 jet was on a routine training mission and crashed due to a technical fault.
> 
> The pilot and co-pilot ejected from the jet prior to the crash, however the female pilot sustained injuries and was taken to the Mianwali hospital for treatment.
> 
> The area was cordoned off and people were asked to stay away from the crash site.
> 
> The formation of an inquiry board has been ordered to investigate the reasons behind the crash.


PAF plane crashes near Bhakkar - GEO.tv


----------



## satishkumarcsc

rockstar said:


> Mig-21 series sucks..still PAF & IAF rookies has to go thru it..


 
Mate it was a great aircraft for it's time and must have been gracefully retired 2 decades back...it is our fault that we keep flying it.

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## Patriot

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well a bit of a good news that the Pilot is safe:
> 
> Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan&#039;s Premier NEWS Agency ) - PAF F-7 fighter aircraft crashes near Bhakkar
> 
> also note that as per Geo it was a twin seater variant and both the pilot and co-pilot ejected safely with the pilot, Flying Officer Nida sustaining minor injuries.
> 
> PAF plane crashes near Bhakkar - GEO.tv


 We can all relax now - The Air craft is worth nothing compared to human cost unless you crash a B-2.

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## rockstarIN

satishkumarcsc said:


> Mate it was a great aircraft for it's time and must have been gracefully retired 2 decades back...it is our fault that we keep flying it.


 
Correct, earlier top pilots groomed to fly (like today's F-16 and Su-30 in PAF & IAF), crashes were less...now it is the rookies who gets soon from the training get.


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## Windjammer

satishkumarcsc said:


> The main problem is the high take-off and landing speeds. This makes the aircraft almost impossible to manuver and react if there is any problem and before you know it it is too late. And above all the speed at which you eject is another matter of concern.



This draw back was partially off set by the introduction of leading edge flaps on the F-7PG version. Apparently giving the aircraft better manoeuvrability than anything in it's class.


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## satishkumarcsc

Windjammer said:


> This draw back was partially off set by the introduction of leading edge flaps on the F-7PG version. Apparently giving the aircraft better manoeuvrability than anything in it's class.



But still for the rookie pilots the speed is too high to handle. And if there is any mechanical or technical fault it makes it much worse.


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## Mani2020

satishkumarcsc said:


> Mate it was a great aircraft for it's time and must have been gracefully retired 2 decades back...it is our fault that we keep flying it.


 
Yup,but IAF had more flexibility to retire them as compared to PAF because F-7's entered in service much later than mig-21's in IAF , also we had budget constraints as well as embargoed so we didn't have any options other than to induct them in numbers even in 2002 we inducted the F-7 version known as F-7PG due to the above mentioned issues but as sson as we find a chance we are retiring them by replacing them with jf-17 ,but in case of IAF it was completely opposite they had leverage to go for French, British or Russian origin aircrafts also the budget enough to afford them but i think they played at the wrong end by taking migs to 2020 in result they have become a lingering issue for IAF along with other old breeds


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## SQ8

Not to belittle her or anything.. but many of those women that will continue on fighters in the PAF were considered less feminine by their male coursemates.
Some even going as far as calling them "men".
Those girls are tough cookies..
however.. there are those that eventually find our culture has caught upto them..and eventually the AF has wasted millions training a pilot only to have her sitting around on the ground after pregnancy..and unfit to fly.

Our women still have a long way to go when it comes to overcoming social constraints.

The girl should be ok.. although her parents may be having a fit.


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## truthseeker2010

must have been OCU flight. I heard few years back that none of the female pilots made it to the combat squadrons and all were doing liaison duties. Sad to hear that still one civilian was killed.


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## Mo12

Santro said:


> Not to belittle her or anything.. but many of those women that will continue on fighters in the PAF were considered less feminine by their male coursemates.
> Some even going as far as calling them "men".
> Those girls are tough cookies..
> however.. there are those that eventually find our culture has caught upto them..and eventually the AF has wasted millions training a pilot only to have her sitting around on the ground after pregnancy..and unfit to fly.
> 
> Our women still have a long way to go when it comes to overcoming social constraints.
> 
> The girl should be ok.. although her parents may be having a fit.


 
But isnt that the case with every industry in the World? Not only aviation and Pakistan?


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## satishkumarcsc

Mani2020 said:


> Yup,but IAF had more flexibility to retire them as compared to PAF because F-7's entered in service much later than mig-21's in IAF , also we had budget constraints as well as embargoed so we didn't have any options other than to induct them in numbers even in 2002 we inducted the F-7 version known as F-7PG due to the above mentioned issues but as sson as we find a chance we are retiring them by replacing them with jf-17 ,but in case of IAF it was completely opposite they had leverage to go for French, British or Russian origin aircrafts also the budget enough to afford them but i think they played at the wrong end by taking migs to 2020 in result they have become a lingering issue for IAF along with other old breeds


 
Remember in the 90's we were no different from the position you are in right now. Bombs going up, poor economy, default in loan, o capital. That was the time when most of the aircrafts must be replace. But at that time we didnt have the money or the resources to do anything. After 1996 the economy started stabilizing and we could afford things...but replacing the mainstay of the worlds fourth largest air force is not an easy task. The SU 30s were ordered. But the MiG 21 which formed the backbone is being replaced slowly. 

Well people argue that the MiG 21 and F 7 are totally different aircraft...but the laws of physics are the same for any aircraft made.

No o calls the MiG 21 an aircraft...it is something compared to the F 104 and is nicknamed as 'Rocketship'.


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## SQ8

Mo12 said:


> But isnt that the case with every industry in the World? Not only aviation and Pakistan?


 
Not necessarily.
USAF women pilots also have lives.. they get pregnant.. have kids.
They work on their fitness.. and return to duties.


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## Windjammer




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## satishkumarcsc

Santro said:


> Not to belittle her or anything.. but many of those women that will continue on fighters in the PAF were considered less feminine by their male coursemates.
> Some even going as far as calling them "men".
> Those girls are tough cookies..
> however.. there are those that eventually find our culture has caught upto them..and eventually the AF has wasted millions training a pilot only to have her sitting around on the ground after pregnancy..and unfit to fly.
> 
> Our women still have a long way to go when it comes to overcoming social constraints.
> 
> The girl should be ok.. although her parents may be having a fit.


 
That is one reason why the IAF is still skeptical about inducting women pilots into the airforce to fly fighter aircrafts...there are lot of them as chopper pilots and transport pilots...They cant take off during pregnancy. As High G maneuvers lead the change in the circulatory systems that is dangerous to the baby and might lead to an abortion.

And not all soldiers are good people...crashing into enemy territory means becoming a PoW....remember man the value of a woman's chastity is always higher than the value of a male life.


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## SQ8

satishkumarcsc said:


> That is one reason why the IAF is still skeptical about inducting women pilots into the airforce to fly fighter aircrafts...there are lot of them as chopper pilots and transport pilots...They cant take off during pregnancy. As High G maneuvers lead the change in the circulatory systems that is dangerous to the baby and might lead to an abortion.
> 
> And not all soldiers are good people...crashing into enemy territory means becoming a PoW....remember man the value of a woman's chastity is always higher than the value of a male life.


 
PAF allows a pregnancy leave.. the officer must return to duty three or four months after delivery I think.Fitness is not considered yet.
Most women here also end up in transport or light communication wings.
Although there are plans to make some instructors in BFT or PFT.


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## Tehmasib

The most frequent last words I have heard on cockpit voice-recorder tapes are, 'Oh ****,' said with about that much emotion. There's no panic, no scream, it's a sort of resignation: we've done everything we can, I can't think of anything else to do and this is it

both are safe this is important for us...........nothing compared to human


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## Mani2020

satishkumarcsc said:


> Remember in the 90's we were no different from the position you are in right now. Bombs going up, poor economy, default in loan, o capital. That was the time when most of the aircrafts must be replace. But at that time we didnt have the money or the resources to do anything. After 1996 the economy started stabilizing and we could afford things...but replacing the mainstay of the worlds fourth largest air force is not an easy task. The SU 30s were ordered. But the MiG 21 which formed the backbone is being replaced slowly.
> 
> Well people argue that the MiG 21 and F 7 are totally different aircraft...but the laws of physics are the same for any aircraft made.
> 
> No o calls the MiG 21 an aircraft...it is something compared to the F 104 and is nicknamed as 'Rocketship'.


 
But still IAF had 15 years in b/w , anywayz i think we should leave this topic here otherwise we might be responsible for derailing the thread

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## Devil Soul

Good to know that both Pilot & Co Pilot are safe ....


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## ziaulislam

mirages and f-7 have i think same crash rate..
lack of fly by wire make them crash, in addition to other problems.i don think so most of our f-7s are too old..atleast as comparison to indian mig21..


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## skybolt

ISLAMABAD: An F-7 Fighter Aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed close to Kalur Kot Khakkar (Mianwali training area) due to technical malfunction on Monday.

According to the PAF, the woman pilot of the aircraft, Flying Officer Nida ejected safely. The aircraft was on a routine operational training mission.

No loss of civilian life or property was reported. A board of inquiry was ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident.


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## skybolt




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## untitled

ziaulislam said:


> mirages and f-7 have i think same crash rate..
> lack of fly by wire make them crash,



Planes with fly wire controls crash too...


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## tufail_74

alhamdulillah both pilot and the co-pilot are safe.


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## Imran Khan

thats ok guys F-7 T is old as f-7p


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## Jango

well, good to know the pilot was safe!


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## Chogy

I'm glad she is OK. It's part of the business of having an Air Force.

I think it is important for there to be an advanced trainer... the U.S. has used the T-38 for decades.






Like the F-7 or MiG-21, it is fast, heavily wing-loaded, and unforgiving. Best to find out now if a student can handle an advanced platform. The saying went "If you can fly a T-38, you can fly anything in the inventory." And it is true.

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## zavis2003

Santro said:


> Not necessarily.
> USAF women pilots also have lives.. they get pregnant.. have kids.
> They work on their fitness.. and return to duties.


 
what you want to show in this particular line in ramdan shareef


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## Najam Khan

Sad to hear about the crash. I presume by now both pilots have gone through detailed checkup.

On a side note, Mirages & F-7s are still in good shape, their crash rate has decreased since past couple of years. Its un-just to blame the aircraft involved in a crash, without getting detailed information regrading human factors involved in it.


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## The Deterrent

zavis2003 said:


> what you want to show in this particular line in ramdan shareef


 
Grow up kid...there is nothing "bad" in talking about these things...

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## The Deterrent

Was it the FT-7P or the FT-7PG?...if it was the latter,then it is very troubling news...


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## Imran Khan

AhaseebA said:


> Was it the FT-7P or the FT-7PG?...if it was the latter,then it is very troubling news...


 
it was F-7PT sir


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## nomi007

our f-7 safety record is much better than mig-21
and our f-7pg are much safer than mig-21bison


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## Areesh

AhaseebA said:


> Was it the FT-7P or the FT-7PG?...if it was the latter,then it is very troubling news...


 
It wasn't F-7pg. I didn't read any news indicating this.


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## The Deterrent

Areesh said:


> It wasn't F-7pg. I didn't read any news indicating this.


 
I was talking about the trainer version of the F-7PG,the FT-7PG...as indicated by wikipedia,Pakistan had the FT-7PGs...

But it is not true...before this accident,PAF operated 7 FT-7P aircrafts,which are older than the F-7PGs...PAF does not operates any FT-7PGs...

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## Najam Khan

AhaseebA said:


> I was talking about the trainer version of the F-7PG,the FT-7PG...as indicated by wikipedia,Pakistan had the FT-7PGs...
> 
> *But it is not true...before this accident,PAF operated 7 FT-7P aircrafts,which are older than the F-7PGs...PAF does not operates any FT-7PGs..*.


 
We have them, each unit operates 12 single seat and two dual seat examples for fighter conversion. If i recall correctly there was a picture of FT-7PG in HighMark2010 article by Alan Warnes.

Following is picture of FT-7 from No.14 AS Sqn, used for fighter conversion.


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## Haseebullah

F7 or F7PG??


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## Nav

it was FT-7 , Female Pilot was on training , thank God both are save


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*PAF F-7 Fighter Aircraft Crashes Near Bhakkar*



> ISLAMABAD: An F-7 Fighter Aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed close to Kalur Kot Khakkar (Mianwali training area) due to technical malfunction on Monday.
> 
> According to the PAF, the woman pilot of the aircraft, Flying Officer Nida ejected safely. The aircraft was on a routine operational training mission.
> 
> No loss of civilian life or property was reported. A board of inquiry was ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident.

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## razgriz19

thank god she's safe!
and good that we're replacing these aircrafts....
5 more years!


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## yousaf goebbels

fatman17 said:


> reports of a mushak crash-landing near g/wala - crew survives!


 
sir does mushak has ejection seats?


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## yousaf goebbels

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *PAF F-7 Fighter Aircraft Crashes Near Bhakkar*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-7 fighter aircraft crashes near Bhakkar | Pakistan | DAWN.COM


 
Sir could this possibly be the first female ejection in PAF's history?


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## Last Hope

No I dont think Mushak have Ejection seats.
And Alhamdulilah the pilots survived on the F-7.

Say what, not to give the ladies control of a Aircraft. haha.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

yousaf goebbels said:


> Sir could this possibly be the first female ejection in PAF's history?


 
I think she is, yes...


Thanks to God, she is safe and sound. No damage or loss of life on the ground. These aircrafts have served Pakistan and are to be retired soon within next few years. 

I am unsure which model designation this F-7 was; it may have been one of the older versions but I'm not sure.


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## @rrows

*Fighter plane crashes in Pakistan, one killed*

It appears that the aircraft was FT-7. Both the pilots ejected safely and sustained some injuries. one civilian was killed due to the crash.


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## Safriz

@rrows said:


> *Fighter plane crashes in Pakistan, one killed*
> 
> It appears that the aircraft was FT-7. Both the pilots ejected safely and sustained some injuries. one civilian was killed due to the crash.


 
ISPR says no casualties on ground.


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## yousaf goebbels

the newspaper says one person died on ground after the fuel tank exploded....maybe they dropped the fuel tanks before in an attempt to lighten the plane so that it could gain power and altitude.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

RIP to the deceased civilian.....may their family be fully compensated for the tragic loss.

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## air marshal




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## air marshal




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## air marshal




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## ziaulislam

newspaper said civilian death occurred after people gathered around wreckage of burning aircraft..why did they do so anyway..its dangerous and always asked by PAF not to do so


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## Abu Zolfiqar

you know how some of our people are.....maybe they had some goodwill, maybe they were curious...probably simple people who never have seen an aircraft crash.

but they should have a modicum of common sense. A burning aircraft emits toxic gases and extreme heat. Common sense should have told them to keep away from the wreckage and allow PAF personnel and emergency crew to do their assigned duties.

this is all assuming that the newpapers (mentioned in above post) are accurate; little info is available on exact circumstances.

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## mike bennett

@rrows said:


> *Fighter plane crashes in Pakistan, one killed*
> 
> It appears that the aircraft was FT-7. Both the pilots ejected safely and sustained some injuries. one civilian was killed due to the crash.


 
Dear Forum Members,
Please can anyone confirm that there were two on board the F-7.
I understand that Flying Officer Nida was on a solo flight and ejected safely.
(see also female) which I think confirms her as Pakistans first female ejectee

Does anyone have any further details on the mishap of about Flying Officer Nida (possibly photo) ?
With respect

Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk


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## Windjammer

mike bennett said:


> Dear Forum Members,
> Please can anyone confirm that there were two on board the F-7.
> I understand that Flying Officer Nida was on a solo flight and ejected safely.
> (see also female) which I think confirms her as Pakistans first female ejectee
> 
> Does anyone have any further details on the mishap of about Flying Officer Nida (possibly photo) ?
> With respect
> 
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk



Hi Mr Bennett,

The reports after the crash were conflicting, some saying it was a twin seater and both pilots ejected safely, while others state that the female pilot was on a solo flight, however if I am not mistaken, F/O Nida is the pilot on the left of the image.


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## razgriz19

^^ I hope she resumes her flight duties ASAP!
or it would be a big blow and would affect the future female cadets....


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## razgriz19

self deleted


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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> Hi Mr Bennett,
> 
> The reports after the crash were conflicting, some saying it was a twin seater and both pilots ejected safely, while others state that the female pilot was on a solo flight, however if I am not mistaken, F/O Nida is the pilot on the left of the image.



IF you are right about her being Nida then u can see her in this video at 0:36 seconds!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

No. 

these things happen time to time, unfortunately. The F-7s regardless are to be retired soon. They've serves us well. Just like the Female pilots serve us well, as well as the male pilots.

this will have absolutely no impact on recruitment of females. That would be a ridiculous policy to judge them over one accident (which could have happened to even a seasoned pilot)


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## mike bennett

razgriz19 said:


> IF you are right about her being Nida then u can see her in this video at 0:36 seconds!


 
Dear Forum Members,
I don't think that this is Nida.
I believe she is part of the SHERDILS team.

Have a look at this and let me know waht you think

PAF women pilots Explained team "Sherdils" mark - YouTube

It would be interesting to compile a list of Pakistans female pilots along with their photos.

Best regards

Mike Bennett

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## epinephrine

razgriz19 said:


> ^^ I hope she resumes her flight duties ASAP!
> or it would be a big blow and would affect the future female cadets....



i know its harsh but it will be even a bigger blow for paf if she and other female pilots continue to fly


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## DANGER-ZONE

epinephrine said:


> ^^^^"It would be interesting to compile a list of Pakistans female pilots along with their photos."
> 
> kio tum nay rishta laina hay kia?
> 
> i m sorry but it really made me laugh.



if you have nothing to say good then better say nothing, he is an owner of this website http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/ and collecting Aviation Accidents, Crashes and Ejection data throughout the world for good not for marriage proposals.

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## Patriot

epinephrine said:


> i know its harsh but it will be even a bigger blow for paf if she and other female pilots continue to fly


Why?Is it because a women could fly Fighter jet and you could not?

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## epinephrine

danger-zone said:


> if you have nothing to say good then better say nothing, he is an owner of this website http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/ and collecting Aviation Accidents, Crashes and Ejection data throughout the world for good not for marriage proposals.



it was just a joke.dont take it on ur heart

---------- Post added at 05:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------




Patriot said:


> Why?Is it because a women could fly Fighter jet and you could not?



no. because its in the best interest of a poor country like pakistan to spend money on a fighter pilot who cant fight.even if they fly they fly for very limited years.


----------



## razgriz19

epinephrine said:


> it was just a joke.dont take it on ur heart
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> no. because its in the best interest of a poor country like pakistan to spend money on a fighter pilot who cant fight.even if they fly they fly for very limited years.



you're wrong my friend, They CAN fight but the military doesn't let them. However if u look at the past in WW1 and WW2, women flew and fought, and performed well beyond many enlisted men!
and its always good to have more pilots. we have a lot of mushaks in Air force and the Army, army uses them for reconnaissance, transport, CAS, and for many other ground support operations, women can used for these operations.


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## razgriz19

mike bennett said:


> Dear Forum Members,
> I don't think that this is Nida.
> I believe she is part of the SHERDILS team.
> 
> Have a look at this and let me know waht you think
> 
> PAF women pilots Explained team "Sherdils" mark - YouTube
> 
> It would be interesting to compile a list of Pakistans female pilots along with their photos.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Mike Bennett



hmm it actually make sense as she said they were doing their fighter conversion on K-8P, so probably now they were flying F-7 for training...


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## epinephrine

when u have a pilot available who is willing to fly n fight for u for may be 20 years then y to induct the one who will be flying for maximum 5-8 yrs.anyways leave it.we r going off topic


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## Najam Khan

mike bennett said:


> Dear Forum Members,
> I don't think that this is Nida.
> I believe she is part of the SHERDILS team.
> 
> Have a look at this and let me know waht you think
> 
> PAF women pilots Explained team "Sherdils" mark - YouTube
> 
> It would be interesting to compile a list of Pakistans female pilots along with their photos.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Mike Bennett


 Yes you are right, she is standing in middle in following picture taken at Zhuahi 2010.






The former pilot with similar name was in F-7OCU in 2008, now most probably she would be flying F-7/F-7PGs in any operational squadron.

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## mike bennett

NAjAM Khan said:


> Yes you are right, she is standing in middle in following picture taken at Zhuahi 2010.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The former pilot with similar name was in F-7OCU in 2008, now most probably she would be flying F-7/F-7PGs in any operational squadron.


 
Thanks to all the forum members who responded to my request for help identifying Pakistan's first female ejectee.
Just to be sure - can someone confirm her name and also the naming convention in Pakistan - is Nida the family name?

Should her name be 

Flying Officer Nida Tariq or Nida Tahar?

I want to ensure I get the details correct.

I can see that I was rather clumsy in my wording of the suggestion for a page on Pakistan's Female Pilots. (I'm not sure what was written as I cannot translate the joke - but I have a sense of humour so I probably won't be offended)

Najam - may I take a crop from the photo of Flying Officer Nida on the forum for my web site ?

The most important thing is that she survived.

One last thing before I sign off - can anyone tell me what has happened to my friend MuradK
? If you prefer to contact me privately either in the PMs or at mbenshar@aol.com


Best regards 

Mike
www.ejection-history.org.uk

(If you can add anything to improve the ejection web site please do contact me)


----------



## Imran Khan

mike bennett said:


> Thanks to all the forum members who responded to my request for help identifying Pakistan's first female ejectee.
> Just to be sure - can someone confirm her name and also the naming convention in Pakistan - is Nida the family name?
> 
> Should her name be
> 
> Flying Officer Nida Tariq or Nida Tahar?
> 
> I want to ensure I get the details correct.
> 
> I can see that I was rather clumsy in my wording of the suggestion for a page on Pakistan's Female Pilots. (I'm not sure what was written as I cannot translate the joke - but I have a sense of humour so I probably won't be offended)
> 
> Najam - may I take a crop from the photo of Flying Officer Nida on the forum for my web site ?
> 
> The most important thing is that she survived.
> 
> One last thing before I sign off - can anyone tell me what has happened to my friend MuradK
> ? If you prefer to contact me privately either in the PMs or at mbenshar@aol.com
> 
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Mike
> www.ejection-history.org.uk
> 
> (If you can add anything to improve the ejection web site please do contact me)



sir it was A two-seater PAF FT-7 (serial# 90-609) aircraft.





pilot officer Nida Tariq sir nida is female name and tariq male name .she may use her father name or hubby if she marred .

btw she was hanged on tree and locals bring her down as her shoute hanged on tree 

look here





unfortunately a man standing close to wreckage of the crashed aircraft received burn injuries when a fuel tank of the crashed aircraft exploded. He was taken to a hospital where he succumbed to his injuries. At least one more person on the ground also received injuries at crash site

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## fatman17

mike bennett said:


> Thanks to all the forum members who responded to my request for help identifying Pakistan's first female ejectee.
> Just to be sure - can someone confirm her name and also the naming convention in Pakistan - is Nida the family name?
> 
> Should her name be
> 
> Flying Officer Nida Tariq or Nida Tahar?
> 
> I want to ensure I get the details correct.
> 
> I can see that I was rather clumsy in my wording of the suggestion for a page on Pakistan's Female Pilots. (I'm not sure what was written as I cannot translate the joke - but I have a sense of humour so I probably won't be offended)
> 
> Najam - may I take a crop from the photo of Flying Officer Nida on the forum for my web site ?
> 
> The most important thing is that she survived.
> 
> One last thing before I sign off - can anyone tell me what has happened to my friend MuradK
> ? If you prefer to contact me privately either in the PMs or at mbenshar@aol.com
> 
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Mike
> www.ejection-history.org.uk
> 
> (If you can add anything to improve the ejection web site please do contact me)



mike muradk is in-active these days. we miss his expertise a lot


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## Windjammer

*
F/O Nida giving an interview to a Chinese TV Network.*

PAF women pilots Explained team "Sherdils" mark - YouTube

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## Imran Khan

colored image of 90609


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> *
> F/O Nida giving an interview to a Chinese TV Network.*
> 
> PAF women pilots Explained team "Sherdils" mark - YouTube



Nice Digging Man ... Hats off


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## Blackpearl

Windjammer said:


> *
> F/O Nida giving an interview to a Chinese TV Network.*
> 
> PAF women pilots Explained team "Sherdils" mark - YouTube



Flying Officer Nida and her colleague are undergoing training for FCU (Fighter Conversion Unit), it is highly unlikely that both of them at this stage are part of PAF Academy Sherdil Team. The Sherdils Team comprises the best of the best, it means few 
Instructor Pilots (IPs) from Jet Training Wing of the Academy are selected to be part of the team. IPs posted at PAF Academy have minimum 5-7 years field experience in different squadrons, and then they come for Instructor ship. I think these young ladies were only picked up to be part of PAF entourage visiting China. To include women pilots to project modern image is OK, but 
pinning them with highly coveted but undeserving Sherdil Insignia is wrong. A flying officer cannot be part of Sherdil team, 
logically.


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## air marshal

*LASBELA: PAF Mirage aircraft crashes near Uthal city of Lasbela district, pilot dead.*

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## Areesh

air marshal said:


> *LASBELA: PAF Mirage aircraft crashes near Uthal city of Lasbela district, pilot dead.*



Sad very sad. RIP brave warrior.


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## alibaz

Inna lillah he wa inna aliahe rajeoon

RIP great soldier


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## Windjammer

Damn and damn....these old Mirages need to be replaced even before the F-7s.

The irreplacable loss of a pilot sends a shock wave through the organisation. RIP brave warrior.

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## Kompromat

Ina lillah e wa inna eleh-e-Rajeun.


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## ZaYYaF

Rest in peace soldier!


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## MilSpec

RIP to the pilot...condolences to the family


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## ice_man

Mirages are damn old!!! only our great pilots can fly them and only they know how!!! keeping such planes in the air deserves an applaud for our ground engineers and aircrew!


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## JonAsad

RIP the brave pilot-



JonAsad said:


> Today is crash day- Every thing is crashing- PAF Mirage- Indian MIG-29- now the Dhruv- Every body- Dont fly today-


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## Emmie

RIP to the pilot who died in today's crash..


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## kaykay

RIP to the brave soul.


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## Dr Courage

Inna lilah e wa inna ilaihe rajeoun


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Damn! R.I.P

I think today is crash day!


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## Jango

Ina lilla he wa inna ilayhi rajiun.

A very sad incident. What was the cause of the accident? Mirage III or V? ROSE or not?


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## Last Hope

*A French-built Pakistani fighter jet crashed during a training flight on Wednesday, killing the pilot, the air force said.

The Mirage-V aircraft, on a "routine operational training" mission crashed near the town of Uthal in sparsely populated southwestern Balochistan province, it said in a statement.

"The pilot embraced martyrdom. No loss of civilian life or property has been reported on ground," it said and added that an inquiry had been ordered to ascertain the cause of the accident.

Pakistan's air force has a fleet of Chinese aircraft, including F-7PGs and A-5s, US-built F-16s and French Mirages.

It recently acquired medium-tech JF-17 or Thunder jets, manufactured jointly by China and Pakistan.*

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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> _Santro, ignore the trolls.
> _
> 
> PS. It happened just now. Initial claims have been saying as Technical failure, but wait till I contact PAF and post what they have to say. *We suspect BLA. *



Which Squadron was it?

At what time did it take place?


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Given the insurgencies in both countries, I guess the same standards would apply in both cases..


 
If IAF Dhruv and Mirages fly at the same speed and altitude then *YES *same standards might apply.


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## monitor

If the suspicion proof right its a serious matter . hope Pakistan will thoroughly check the matter .

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## Areesh

Last Hope said:


> _Santro, ignore the trolls.
> _
> 
> PS. It happened just now. Initial claims have been saying as Technical failure, but wait till I contact PAF and post what they have to say. *We suspect BLA. *


 
So now you have taken the job to feed the trolls here!!! Facepalm.


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## SQ8

Lets return to the topic.. and keep idiotic suggestions off the thread.

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## JonAsad

jitnay mun utni batein- what the official take of ISPR on this?-

---------- Post added at 02:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ----------




Last Hope said:


> @Santro. Hey what with deleting the posts? Mine were ontopic, on suspections of AAA being used.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:15 PM ----------
> 
> *Confirmation: Anti-Aircraft Artillery was used.*



These are not AAA projectiles hitting the plane-

This image on the article was just for reference-
PAF's fighter jet crashes, pilot embraces shahadat | PakSoldiers

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## Jango

the plane looks in a ravine, dont think these are the real images. Or are they?

There is a bullet hole on the back of the plane.


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## Roybot

Last Hope said:


> @Santro. Hey what with deleting the posts? Mine were ontopic, on suspections of AAA being used.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:15 PM ----------
> 
> *Confirmation: Anti-Aircraft Artillery was used.*



*Thats Venezualan Air Force Mirage, Crashed in 2004*,











http://www.rescate.com/fav6732.html

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## JonAsad

Ok-



> 17 September 2004 - Venezuelan Air Force Mirage 50 crashed
> Today, a Mirage 50 fighter jet of the Fuerza Aérea Venezolana (FAV) crashed. The Mirage 50 serialled FAV6732 was on final approach when there was a flameout of the engine. The pilot ejected safely before the aircraft crashed into the approach lights in front of the runway.
> The Mirage 50 belongs to 33 Squadron which is part of Grupo Aéreo de Caza 11 Diablos. The aircraft are operated alongside the F-16s at El LIbertador AB. The Mirage 50DV and 50EV are upgraded Mirage IIIE and V aircraft which were purchased in the 1970s.
















MILAVIA - Military Aviation News Archive 2004 - part 1 of 1

---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------

Lol- gourav-- few sec apart -

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## untitled

Looks something like this


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## Imran Khan

*wake up kids pic is too old .its from 2004 when you guys was in KG-2 class lolz ahhahahah

who feed this wrong info should be punish* 


17 September 2004 - Venezuelan Air Force Mirage 50 crashed
Today, a Mirage 50 fighter jet of the Fuerza Aérea Venezolana (FAV) crashed. The Mirage 50 serialled FAV6732 was on final approach when there was a flameout of the engine. The pilot ejected safely before the aircraft crashed into the approach lights in front of the runway.
The Mirage 50 belongs to 33 Squadron which is part of Grupo Aéreo de Caza 11 Diablos. The aircraft are operated alongside the F-16s at El LIbertador AB. The Mirage 50DV and 50EV are upgraded Mirage IIIE and V aircraft which were purchased in the 1970s.


compleate set of images 














MILAVIA - Military Aviation News Archive 2004 - part 1 of 1


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## Manticore

guys , a brave son of the soil lost his life today-- please honour him if you can , atleast dont start derailing and humouring in the thread

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## Areesh

JonAsad said:


> jitnay mun utni batein- what the official take of ISPR on this?-




Obviously it crashed due to technical fault. That is what PAF have said in there statement.

Do you seriously believe that rag tag idiots of BLA can shoot down a fighter aircraft with AAA?


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Obviously it crashed due to technical fault. That is what PAF have said in there statement.
> 
> Do you seriously believe that rag tag idiots of BLA can shoot down a fighter aircraft with AAA?



--self delete---


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## Abu Zolfiqar

yes the Mirages are old and need to be retired. The lives of the pilots @ PAF are extremely extremely valuable. 

i hope soon they would determine the cause of the accident.


RIP to the pilot who embraced Shahadat.


*&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1575; &#1604;&#1616;&#1604;&#1617;&#1607;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1600;&#1575; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1607;&#1616; &#1585;&#1614;&#1575;&#1580;&#1616;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614;*


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## air marshal

nuclearpak said:


> Which Squadron was it?
> 
> At what time did it take place?


*W/C Asim Paracha shaheed - Mirage-V from No. 8 Sqn.*

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## Areesh

Salute to W/C Asim Paracha Shaheed. A great loss for PAF and Pakistan indeed.

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## BATMAN

Old Mirages are nightmare for PAF because the spares are being squired from alternate sources and their condition is always suspicious..

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## JonAsad

Areesh said:


> Obviously it crashed due to technical fault. That is what PAF have said in there statement.
> 
> Do you seriously believe that rag tag idiots of BLA can shoot down a fighter aircraft with AAA?


 
No- i made that comment when i was not sure-


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## Windjammer

BALOCHISTAN: A pilot of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was killed when a training aircraft crashed near the mountainous area in Uthal area of Lasbela district on Wednesday.
According to official sources, the training aircraft Mirage developed a technical fault during the flight which resulted in the crash near Uthal area. The deceased pilots body was shifted to Karachi.
The plane took off from Masrur Airbase Karachi, and fire erupted in the aircraft when it developed a technical fault near the mountainous range of Uthal.
The officials of PAF, Pakistan Coastguard, Levies and Police personnel reached the spot after the incident.
Initial investigation suggests that the crash took place due to a technical fault. Investigations have started into the incident, sources in the PAF told the local media.
The Pakistan air force maintains a large fleet of the French-built Dassault Mirage III and Mirage V fighter aircrafts.

_My sources tell me the pilot was of an Air Commodore rank._


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## Jango

air marshal said:


> *W/C Asim Paracha shaheed - Mirage-V from No. 8 Sqn.*



That name rings a bell to me. I met him once I think.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

the Mirages should be temporarily grounded and inspected thoroughly


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## Jango

Nah, Air Commodore is a big rank, definitely would have been up in the air had that been the case.


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## Kompromat

Unbelievable..3 out of 4 martyrs..3rd one martyred today in a mirage crash, may allah rest their souls in peace..left most asim paracha (martyred today), behind faisal bashir (martyred on F-7) right most muntajib (martyred pilot of airblue)

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## Abu Zolfiqar

GOD BLESS THEM ALL, THEIR FAMILIES AND FRIENDS

HUGE LOSS FOR THE PAKISTANI NATION


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## Jango

Aeronaut said:


> Unbelievable..3 out of 4 martyrs..3rd one martyred today in a mirage crash, may allah rest their souls in peace..left most asim paracha (martyred today), behind faisal bashir (martyred on F-7) right most muntajib (martyred pilot of airblue)



who is the forth one?


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## Jango

WC Asim Piracha has had a ejection before this as well, also from a Mirage. He suffered some injuries I think and was deputed to PAF academy cadets wing.

No. 8 Squadron is for Maritime roles i think, at PAF base Masroor. They carry Exocet missiles as well I think.


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Nah, Air Commodore is a big rank, definitely would have been up in the air had that been the case.



A Mirage-V fighter jet of the Pakistan Air Force has crashed during a routine operational training mission near the mountainous area in Uthal area of Lasbela district in the southwestern Balochistan province. 

Fighter pilot, *Air Commodore Mohammad Asim Paracha* was not able to survive the crash and embraced Shahadat. 

*
Air Commodore Mohammad Asim Paracha* took off in his Mirage fighter jet from Masrur Airbase Karachi, and according to the Initial investigation reports, his aircraft crashed after fire erupted in Mirage-V fighter jet.


Some airframes of the Mirage-V fighter jets are over 40 years old which need immediate replacement.


Pakistan Air Force is already inducting JF-17 Thunder fighter jets to replace their old fleet of F-7Ps, A-5s and French Mirage-III/Vs.


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> A Mirage-V fighter jet of the Pakistan Air Force has crashed during a routine operational training mission near the mountainous area in Uthal area of Lasbela district in the southwestern Balochistan province.
> 
> Fighter pilot, *Air Commodore Mohammad Asim Paracha* was not able to survive the crash and embraced Shahadat.
> 
> *
> Air Commodore Mohammad Asim Paracha* took off in his Mirage fighter jet from Masrur Airbase Karachi, and according to the Initial investigation reports, his aircraft crashed after fire erupted in Mirage-V fighter jet.
> 
> 
> Some airframes of the Mirage-V fighter jets are over 40 years old which need immediate replacement.
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force is already inducting JF-17 Thunder fighter jets to replace their old fleet of F-7Ps, A-5s and French Mirage-III/Vs.



Whoa, an Air Commodore embraced shahadat. Does not seem to be on the news much. 

Whenever a Brigadier of the Army gets martyred, the media is on a field day.

May Allah bless his soul.


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## Mani2020

I hope the money in the swiss banks would have purposely used for some good reasons so this wouldn't have been the case today .

Too old planes to bet your ride on.... To much of crashes against the PAF liking and reputation


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## Muradk

Are you guys sure we are talking about Asim Paracha he should be a wing Commander not Air Commodore. The Shaheed God Bless his Soul was from 98th GDP which should put him in his mid 30's and you cant be an Air Commodore at that age in PAF for certain now a days. 
The talk of Mirages getting old or F-7s being old has got nothing to do with the crash. when the engine reaches a certain number of hours it goes for overall. Kamra does a fantastic job when the fighter is given to them I have seen it they take apart each and every part and put it on the floor change what ever is required and them gradually and systematically put everything back which gives the fighter a new life. We have realize that we are dealing with machines and Murphy's law comes into play
if something has to go wrong it will go wrong sooner or later. 
Question will be did he try to punch out and if he did was there a misfire.

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## HavocHeaven

R.I.P. to the warrior.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Sir Murad!!!

Salam Aleykum!!! So great to see a post from you, sir...

yes I do agree that given our vast experience with both the French and Chinese aircrafts, we can take them apart and assemble them / overhaul / even some modifications to them (not to mention radars) @ Kamra complex 

it is true that "nothing happens" until something happens; meaning at any time there can be a system failure or what have you......while parts can be changed and some service life added --- to what extent can the aircrafts structure itself come into play? Especially given that the air frames age over time.


any info or feedback on it would be helpful. 


and again, great to see your post. We all at PDF hope to see more of you Inshallah.




-AZ


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## Jango

A crash most often, does not happen because of a single problem, rather a multitude of snags and problems contribute, and a certain point comes when it turns out to be a serious cause.


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## Mughal-Prince

I applied in 103 GDP but couldn't make it unfortunately ... how could some 1 from 98 GDP can become an air commodore in such a short period ... and secondly which series of mirage was that ... I mean a ROSE Upgrade or others ... *Salute for Shaheed *...


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## Najam Khan

Its sad to hear about this loss, may Allah bless his soul.

And which sqn operates non-rose mirages? (15sqn has currently the oldest Mirages...and they were upgraded to ROSE standard in late 2000) each upgrade adds 12yrs of service to the aircraft...Mirages are still air worthy, even after decades of operational service. PAF has accurately planned their retirement schedule, which will be implemented as documented....crashes/inflight emergencies might add more pressure to squadrons/maintenance and flt safety staff but it has no influence on the overall policy of PAF.


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## Cool_Soldier

Sad news indeed.May Allah bless shaheed with great heavenly gifts and patience to his family_Aameen


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## ziaulislam

NAjAM Khan said:


> Its sad to hear about this loss, may Allah bless his soul.
> 
> And which sqn operates non-rose mirages? (15sqn has currently the oldest Mirages...and they were upgraded to ROSE standard in late 2000) each upgrade adds 12yrs of service to the aircraft...Mirages are still air worthy, even after decades of operational service. PAF has accurately planned their retirement schedule, which will be implemented as documented....crashes/inflight emergencies might add more pressure to squadrons/maintenance and flt safety staff but it has no influence on the overall policy of PAF.


 
i am starting to think whether we would be able to retire them around 2015...
as jf-17 hasnt gain the pace we expeceted and f-16s are not coming anymore.


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## Wingman

Windjammer said:


> A Mirage-V fighter jet of the Pakistan Air Force has crashed during a routine operational training mission near the mountainous area in Uthal area of Lasbela district in the southwestern Balochistan province.
> 
> Fighter pilot, *Air Commodore Mohammad Asim Paracha* was not able to survive the crash and embraced Shahadat.
> 
> *
> Air Commodore Mohammad Asim Paracha* took off in his Mirage fighter jet from Masrur Airbase Karachi, and according to the Initial investigation reports, his aircraft crashed after fire erupted in Mirage-V fighter jet.
> 
> 
> Some airframes of the Mirage-V fighter jets are over 40 years old which need immediate replacement.
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force is already inducting JF-17 Thunder fighter jets to replace their old fleet of F-7Ps, A-5s and French Mirage-III/Vs.



Wing Commander Asim was son of Air Commodore (R) Sabir Paracha, belonged to 98th GDP course

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## Wingman

nuclearpak said:


> WC Asim Piracha has had a ejection before this as well, also from a Mirage. He suffered some injuries I think and was deputed to PAF academy cadets wing.
> 
> No. 8 Squadron is for Maritime roles i think, at PAF base Masroor. They carry Exocet missiles as well I think.





He ejected from T37 in academy days, his IP died


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## epinephrine

Wingman said:


> He ejected from T37 in academy days, his IP died


if my memory serves that incident happened in 1994 n the name of the instructor pilot was sqn ldr mujahid who embraced shahadat.may be i m wrong.


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## fatman17

very sad news!
RIP Brave Warrior!


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## Bratva

Didn't mirage have ejection seats or if they have why didn't he bailed out?


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## fatman17

mafiya said:


> Didn't mirage have ejection seats or if they have why didn't he bailed out?


everyone is asking the same question?


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## Imran Khan

Muradk said:


> Are you guys sure we are talking about Asim Paracha he should be a wing Commander not Air Commodore. The Shaheed God Bless his Soul was from 98th GDP which should put him in his mid 30's and you cant be an Air Commodore at that age in PAF for certain now a days.
> The talk of Mirages getting old or F-7s being old has got nothing to do with the crash. when the engine reaches a certain number of hours it goes for overall. Kamra does a fantastic job when the fighter is given to them I have seen it they take apart each and every part and put it on the floor change what ever is required and them gradually and systematically put everything back which gives the fighter a new life. We have realize that we are dealing with machines and Murphy's law comes into play
> if something has to go wrong it will go wrong sooner or later.
> Question will be did he try to punch out and if he did was there a misfire.



welcome back our great hero .sir why can't you daily give us 20 minutes please.please.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

brave man probbly went down with his own desire with the plane to protect others from harm


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## fatman17

Date Posted: 20-Oct-2011 



*Pakistan Mirage 5 crashes during training*

James Hardy Asia-Pacific Editor - London

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pilot died when his Dassault Mirage 5 fighter aircraft crashed during a training sortie in Balochistan Province on 19 October, officials said. 

The PAF's about 80-strong Mirage 5 fleet is a mixture of 5F, 5PA, 5PA2, 5PA3 and 5DR variants, the latter of which is a reconnaissance platform. In 2004 it bought 40 Libyan Air Force Mirages for use as spares for its existing fleet of aircraft. 

The PAF is phasing out its Mirage fleet and replacing it with JF-17 Thunder multirole fighters, which Pakistan is co-producing with China.

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## VCheng

My salute to the fallen warrior.


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## Fieldmarshal

A JF-17 Thunder crashed on the "mullah mansoor mountain" Distt attock. The pilot of the ill fate ac ejected safely. 
Witnesses claim that the ac was on fire before it crashed.

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## shbaziz

Is the news confirmed?


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## shbaziz

Updated at: 1106 PST, Monday, November 14, 2011
ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force plane, which was on a routine operational training mission crashed in Mulla Mansoor area while the pilot ejected safely, Geo News, reported.

PAF plane crashes - GEO.tv


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## foxbat

Good to hear that the pilot escaped..


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## saadmalik

its very sad to hear that a newly built plane crashed. So the Chinese product once again proved how reliable and quality oriented these are.... I just heard an announcement being made from Mosque that if someone has any info regarding this crash then do contact local authorities.. this shows they are feared of any attempt made from ground which might have brought down the plane...

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## Roybot

Which aircraft was it?


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## DarK-LorD

Pakistans JF 17 Thunder Crashes in Mansar, Attock
Posted by Usman 14 November, 2011

ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force plane, which was on a routine operational training mission crashed in Mulla Mansoor area while the pilot ejected safely, Geo News, reported. This crash is first for the JF-17 thunder. Its been a year now that JF-17 has been inducted and serving in Pakistan Air Force.

JF-17 Thunder is made in collaboration of Pakistani and Chinese Air Forces. We will update you with more news on this as we confirm precise location and cause of occurrence for this crash.
Pakistan's JF 17 Thunder Crashes in Mansar, Attock | Latest Pakistan News in Urdu, Breaking News, Urdu Columns, Recipes, Exam Results, Videos


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## saadmalik

roy_gourav said:


> Which aircraft was it?


jf-17 thunder


----------



## alimukhtar

SR-71 BlackBird said:


> Pakistan&#8217;s JF 17 Thunder Crashes in Mansar, Attock
> Posted by Usman 14 November, 2011
> 
> ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force plane, which was on a routine operational training mission crashed in Mulla Mansoor area while the pilot ejected safely, Geo News, reported. This crash is first for the JF-17 thunder. Its been a year now that JF-17 has been inducted and serving in Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> JF-17 Thunder is made in collaboration of Pakistani and Chinese Air Forces. We will update you with more news on this as we confirm precise location and cause of occurrence for this crash.
> Pakistan's JF 17 Thunder Crashes in Mansar, Attock | Latest Pakistan News in Urdu, Breaking News, Urdu Columns, Recipes, Exam Results, Videos



Sad to hear that still cfm da issue........


----------



## alibaz

make / type and probable cause still not confirmed by official sources


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## saadmalik

i might go get some pics...


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## marcos98

Lets wait for a more credible source.
Anyhow the pilots safe, that the upside.


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## Areesh

saadmalik said:


> its very sad to hear that a newly built plane crashed. So the Chinese product once again proved how reliable and quality oriented these are.... .



So just from one crash you guessed the reliability of whole Chinese fighters. Some "expert" we have here. Sp Amrican, European and Russian aircrafts are cr@p too sine they also crash. What other options have we left now. 

Crashes happen buddy. Stop giving stupid comments over it. By the way still no confirm news that it was JFT.

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## Peregrine

According to media reports....Pilots dead body has been found...SQ.Leader Hussain. About the aircraft's type, its rumored to be a training aircraft, could very well be a K8

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## deep.ocean

Sad incident..


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## HavocHeaven

Fortunately the pilot made it. 
Is there any official press release regarding this crash? Thanks.

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## Areesh

Sad news that the pilot couldn't make it. 

RIP great warrior.

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## alibaz

Peregrine said:


> According to media reports....Pilots dead body has been found...SQ.Leader Hussain. About the aircraft's type, its rumored to be a training aircraft, could very well be a K8



Yes contradicting reports on various news channels. Lets wait for official version


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## nomi007

i think we must to 1st confirm the actual news than post any comment


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## saadmalik

Areesh said:


> So just from one crash you guessed the reliability of whole Chinese fighters. Some "expert" we have here. Sp Amrican, European and Russian aircrafts are cr@p too sine they also crash. What other options have we left now.
> 
> Crashes happen buddy. Stop giving stupid comments over it. By the way still no confirm news that it was JFT.



not much info on the channels but if it was a technical fault which i think becoz the local people saw the fire coming out of its engine, then how often does this happen that u take a brandnew car out of showroom and it break due to engine fault, thats the case of a car but here is the case of a fighter plane which need to be almost 100% perfect all the time, MR General its not the question of patriotism that u got fire and started calling my comments STUPID... learn to hear and if u can't then u don't have the patience to be a GENERAL...

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## houshanghai

saadmalik said:


> its very sad to hear that a newly built plane crashed. So the Chinese product once again proved how reliable and quality oriented these are.... I just heard an announcement being made from Mosque that if someone has any info regarding this crash then do contact local authorities.. this shows they are feared of any attempt made from ground which might have brought down the plane...



Fortunately the pilot bailed out before plane crashed.
actually,all of world famous 4 gen fighters(ex:f16 f15 f18 jas39 typhoon rafael su27 su30 mig29 )have crashed records.there are many causes of the air crash.PAF are still investigating the crash of the plane. so you should not jump to a conclusion and blamed on the quality of chinese aircraft .bro

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## Areesh

saadmalik said:


> not much info on the channels but if it was a technical fault which i think becoz the local people saw the fire coming out of its engine, then how often does this happen that u take a brandnew car out of showroom and it break due to engine fault, thats the case of a car but here is the case of a fighter plane which need to be almost 100% perfect all the time, MR General its not the question of patriotism that u got fire and started calling my comments STUPID... learn to hear and if u can't then u don't have the patience to be a GENERAL...


 
Cars don't fly in the air?? Or do they??? Based on your theory for "100% perfection" then there shouldn't be any crash. But still they do happen because that's the part and parcel of airforce life buddy. F-22, F-16, F-15, SU-30, Mig 29, EuroFighter, Rafale, Mirages etc etc. Each and every aircraft has faced accidents during there development. But based on such accidents you can't claim an aircraft to be low quality etc etc. That's what I called stupid and I don't think that I was wrong there. By comparing cars with aircrafts you have already taken it to another level of stupidity.

---------- Post added at 12:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 PM ----------

By the way I am still waiting for the confirm news about JFT crash.

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## TaimiKhan

saadmalik said:


> not much info on the channels but if it was a technical fault which i think becoz the local people saw the fire coming out of its engine, then how often does this happen that u take a brandnew car out of showroom and it break due to engine fault, thats the case of a car but here is the case of a fighter plane which need to be almost 100% perfect all the time, MR General its not the question of patriotism that u got fire and started calling my comments STUPID... learn to hear and if u can't then u don't have the patience to be a GENERAL...



There is one hell of a difference between the engine of an aircraft and a car's engine and how they operate and which engine is more prone to failures compared to each other.

And yeah the comments from your side were stupid, since you are not aware of the reason of the crash and you came up with your stupid comments. If the reason was engine trouble, then why blaming Chinese quality for that as the engine is being manufactured by the Russians and the maintenance is being done by Pakistani engineers and technicians. It could have been a bird strike, i do hope you know what a bird strike is. 

So, without knowing what is the specific reason which caused the aircraft, coming up with a verdict is stupidity, so next time do take care while posting about something which you don't know.

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## Najam Khan

very sad incident. May Allah bless his soul.


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## Windjammer

There are conflicting reports......some say it was a JF-17, while others are quoting a training aircraft perhaps K-8.
However all the reports are claiming that the pilot ejected safely. !!


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## Peregrine

GEO is saying that it's JF-17.........

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## Areesh

Geo news is saying that pilot is safe. He ejected out safely.


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## Peregrine

Areesh said:


> Geo news is saying that pilot is safe. He ejected out safely.


I am viewing 1 PM headlines........ Pilot couldn't make it...... dead body was found 2 km away from crash site.... Though, lets pray that you are right.


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## Areesh

Peregrine said:


> I am viewing 1 PM headlines........ Pilot couldn't make it...... dead body was found 2 km away from crash site.... Though, lets pray that you are right.



There website is saying that the pilot ejected safely. May be you are right.


----------



## mjnaushad

Peregrine said:


> GEO is saying that it's JF-17.........



JFT doesn't worth more than our pilot.... Lets hope the Pilot is safe...

http://www.thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=26505&title=PAF-aircraft-crashes-in-Attock

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## marcos98

Lastest update:


> ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft, which was on a routine operational training mission crashed in Attock Distrct , also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.
> 
> According to PAF spokesman, an aircraft was on its routine training flight when it suddenly crashed near Hazro Tehsil. There were no reports of damage as the crash site is a mountainous region.
> 
> Rescue teams reached the site soon after the incident while an investigation board has been set up to investigate the crash.


So the pilot didn't make it. Now that's sad.




RIP.


----------



## Paan Singh

ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft, which was on a routine operational training mission crashed in Attock Distrct , also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.

According to PAF spokesman, an aircraft was on its routine training flight when it suddenly crashed near Hazro Tehsil. There were no reports of damage as the crash site is a mountainous region.

Rescue teams reached the site soon after the incident while an investigation board has been set up to investigate the crash.


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## Peregrine

mjnaushad said:


> JFT doesn't worth more than our pilot.... Lets hope the Pilot is safe...


Pilots dead body; of SQ.Leader Muhammad Hussain has been found and sent to Kamra cantt via helicopter.


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## Fieldmarshal

Now the media reports are saying that it was a training ac and their were two pilots on board the ac, the trainee ejected and the trainer in order to steer the ac clear of the village sacrificed his life.
So if its a twin seat ac than it is not a JF-17 THUNDER.
from the footage of the wreckage it looks like FT-7.

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## moha199

saadmalik said:


> its very sad to hear that a newly built plane crashed. So the Chinese product once again proved how reliable and quality oriented these are.... I just heard an announcement being made from Mosque that if someone has any info regarding this crash then do contact local authorities.. this shows they are feared of any attempt made from ground which might have brought down the plane...


 No need to criticize JF17 and thinking how reliable or not reliable Chinese plans are because even american f22 had crashed which was supposed to be best plan, it was bound to happen today or 10 years later but good thing is that we will work on what went wrong and we will fix the bugs now then later 
Air Force: Pilot Died in F-22 Crash


----------



## mjnaushad

Peregrine said:


> Pilots dead body; of SQ.Leader Muhammad Hussain has been found and sent to Kamra cantt via helicopter.



Thats sad.... May god give strength to the family of deceased.... May he rest in peace....


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## shbaziz

Fieldmarshal said:


> the trainer in order to steer the ac clear of the village sacrificed his life.



Salute to the brave and selfless sons of Pakistan. May ur soul rest in peace. Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi rajioon.


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## Peregrine

according to latest updates... JF-17 was completely destroyed.


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## mjnaushad

Fieldmarshal said:


> Now the media reports are saying that it was a training ac and their were two pilots on board the ac, the trainee ejected and the trainer in order to steer the ac clear of the village sacrificed his life.
> So if its a twin seat ac than it is not a JF-17 THUNDER.
> from the footage of the wreckage it looks like FT-7.



Is teh footage online or you watching TV? my assumption is its F6 but as for many common Pakistani's every PAF plan that roar is a JF17


----------



## Peregrine

If these news are true, then it's a very tragic day for PAF and JF-17 fans.


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## Don Jaguar

R.I.P to the dead. 

But this will leave a bad impression of JF-17 in dubai air show, i know that famous and deadly jets like F-22 and B-2 spirit also have crash records but our jet is a new one and until now haven't proved itself in real war.


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## mjnaushad

Don Jaguar said:


> R.I.P to the dead.
> 
> But this will leave a bad impression of JF-17 in dubai air show, i know that famous and deadly jets like F-22 and B-2 spirit also have crash records but our jet is a new one and and until now haven't proved itself in real war.



If nations need wars to prove their weapons this world will become a mess....

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## Devil Soul

RIP ..* inna lillah wa inna 'ilayhi raji'un*


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## MZUBAIR

I think its JF-17....
The way news is coming on Channels......its confirmed.

Besides, Its not necessary that JF17 crashed coz its not reliable..........It may be the pilot mistake, or may be maintenance negligence .....let the final report come


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## marcos98

Attock: Pakistans joint fighter JF-17 Thunder crashed in treacherous area of Attock district on Monday.

Sources said that *Pilot Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain* was killed and the jet fighter was completely destroyed in the incident.

*They said that the pilot tried to eject but could not succeed as the parachute didnt opened.
*
His body was found one and half km from the crash site. Hussains body was shifted to Kamra Aeronautical Complex.
JF-17 crashes in Attock, pilot killed | The News Tribe

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## Areesh

Fieldmarshal said:


> Now the media reports are saying that it was a training ac and their were two pilots on board the ac, the trainee ejected and the trainer in order to steer the ac clear of the village sacrificed his life.
> So if its a twin seat ac than it is not a JF-17 THUNDER.
> from the footage of the wreckage it looks like FT-7.



If it was two seat ac then this isn't JFT. And if it is true that trainer tried to safe the village and the trainee then my respect for him has increased manifold.


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## marcos98

self delete


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## Doctor09

PILOT IS SAFE


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## marcos98

So much ambiguity about which plane crashed, but its confirmed that pilot couldn't make it.


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## solid snake

Is S/L Hussain's death confirmed? 



saadmalik said:


> not much info on the channels but if it was a technical fault which i think becoz the local people saw the fire coming out of its engine, then how often does this happen that u take a brandnew car out of showroom and it break due to engine fault, thats the case of a car but here is the case of a fighter plane which need to be almost 100% perfect all the time, MR General its not the question of patriotism that u got fire and started calling my comments STUPID... learn to hear and if u can't then u don't have the patience to be a GENERAL...


 
What a naive comment. Did you know that multiple F-22's have crashed both during testing/prototype phase and after induction? The production F-22s also crashed soon after induction. The F-35 has also crashed. Even before an investigation into the crash you're passing verdict on the JF-17

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## Doctor09

ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft, which was on a routine operational training mission crashed in Attock Distrct , also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.

According to PAF spokesman, an aircraft was on its routine training flight when it suddenly crashed near Hazro Tehsil. There were no reports of damage as the crash site is a mountainous region.

Rescue teams reached the site soon after the incident while an investigation board has been set up to investigate the crash.
Pilot dies in PAF aircraft crash

*this is contraindicated news from Jang urdu*


----------



## Areesh

Don Jaguar said:


> R.I.P to the dead.
> 
> But this will leave a bad impression of JF-17 in dubai air show, i know that famous and deadly jets like F-22 and B-2 spirit also have crash records but our jet is a new one and until now haven't proved itself in *real war*.



Even F-22 hasn't proved itself in "real war".


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## Doctor09

Its not confirmed yet .......


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## Xracer

Pilot dies in PAF aircraft crash

November 14, 2011
Pilot dies in PAF aircraft crash ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft, which was on a routine operational training mission crashed in Attock Distrct , also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.

According to PAF spokesman, an aircraft was on its routine training flight when it suddenly crashed near Hazro Tehsil. There were no reports of damage as the crash site is a mountainous region.

Rescue teams reached the site soon after the incident while an investigation board has been set up to investigate the crash.

Pilot dies in PAF aircraft crash - GEO.tv


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## Areesh

marcos98 said:


> Attock: Pakistan&#8217;s joint fighter JF-17 Thunder crashed in *treacherous* area of Attock district on Monday.



How has Attock become a "treacherous" area? Anyone?


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## Shameel

It was a two-seat FT-7P. Just saw from the wreckage on TV. The pilot's parachute didn't open.


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## jawadqamar

A PAF training plane crashed and its pilot martyred 

A *PAF training plane crashed *and its pilot martyred during a training flight near Attock on Monday.


According to police sources, a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) plane was on a routine training flight when it crashed at Mullah Mansoor hilltop.

The pilot of the plane was martyred during the crash. The police have cardoned off the area while rescue teams have launched operation to clear the debris of the plane.


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## Xracer

Shameel said:


> It was an FT-7P.


May be.....

---------- Post added at 01:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 PM ----------

ya Allah JF Thunder na ho FT-7P ho

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## shbaziz

Shameel said:


> It was an FT-7P.



U have any pic or footage??? any link???


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## Roybot

RIP Pilot.

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## Areesh

Shameel said:


> It was a two-seat FT-7P. Just saw from the wreckage on TV. The pilot's parachute didn't open.


 
So it wasn't JFT. Bichara muft main badnaam ho raha tha.

Anyways what the hell is the issue with these parachutes? Just last month we lost one pilot in Mirage crash and his parachute also didn't open. What the hell PAF is doing about this issue.


----------



## alibaz

Xracer said:


> May be.....
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 PM ----------
> 
> ya Allah JF Thunder na ho FT-7P ho



Irrespective of what crashed, we have lost the precious one, the pilot

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## Areesh

Xracer said:


> ya Allah JF Thunder na ho FT-7P ho



I say:Ya Allah Jf-17 hi ho bus pilot bach jaye.

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## shbaziz

Shameel said:


> It was a two-seat FT-7P. Just saw from the wreckage on TV. The pilot's parachute didn't open.



Can u post a link,, is there any footage on web?


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## Xracer

alibaz said:


> Irrespective of what crashed, we have lost the precious one, the pilot


 may the soul our Brave Pilot rest in Peace

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## janu.bravo

RIP pilot...fly high in heaven.

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## Windjammer

Seems most of the PR team seem to be out of station.....Dubai perhaps ?? , however the person I spoke to could only confirm that it was a training aircraft most likely the FT-7.

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## Roybot

Whats the closest Airbase?

Kamra?

http://www.thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=26505&title=Pilot-dies-in-PAF-jet-crash



> *ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft JF-17 Thunder, crashed in Attock Distrct also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.*
> 
> According to PAF spokesman, pilot Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain ejected successfully but the parachute failed to open properly. There were no reports of damage as the crash site is a mountainous region.
> 
> Rescue teams reached the site soon after the incident while an investigation board has been set up to investigate the crash.


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## Shameel

GEO TV, which is part of The News/Jang Group, is no longer saying it is a JF-17. That was the initial report.


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## Peregrine

Damn our media.......... They cant report anything accurately.
Lets hope that the pilot is safe and the jet wasn't JF-17.

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## Don Jaguar

Peregrine said:


> Damn our media.......... They cant report anything accurately.
> Lets hope that the pilot is safe and the jet wasn't JF-17.



Yes, everyone is telling their own story.


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## Areesh

Can any senior member of this forum watch the footage of the crash on TV and confirm us the aircraft type.


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## Xracer

Areesh said:


> Can any senior member of this forum watch the footage of the crash on TV and confirm us the aircraft type.


WTF my Cable is gone

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## PiyaraPakistan

Pilot dies in PAF jet crash 
Updated at: 1214 PST, Monday, November 14, 2011
ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft JF-17 Thunder, crashed in Attock Distrct also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.

According to PAF spokesman, pilot Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain ejected successfully but the parachute failed to open properly. There were no reports of damage as the crash site is a mountainous region.

Rescue teams reached the site soon after the incident while an investigation board has been set up to investigate the crash.


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## Xracer

PiyaraPakistan said:


> Pilot dies in PAF jet crash
> Updated at: 1214 PST, Monday, November 14, 2011
> ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft JF-17 Thunder, crashed in Attock Distrct also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.
> 
> According to PAF spokesman, pilot Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain ejected successfully but the parachute failed to open properly. There were no reports of damage as the crash site is a mountainous region.
> 
> Rescue teams reached the site soon after the incident while an investigation board has been set up to investigate the crash.


it wasnt thunder it was J-7 / F-7 Airguard

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## Roybot

> The Squadron leader Muhammad Hussain was killed when a PAF fighter jet crashed during a training flight in the Mulla Mansoor area, Attock on Monday.
> 
> *A Pakistan Air Force plane, which was on a routine operational training mission took off from Kamra airbase at 10.30 am today but soon it was crashed in the mountains near Mulla Mansoor area.
> 
> The pilot&#8217;s body was recovered 1km away from the site of the crash. Initial reports suggested that he was unharmed as he ejected himself from the aircraft before the crash. However, officials have confirmed the pilot&#8217;s death.*
> 
> The cause of the crash is not yet known, however, army and rescue officials approached the area to collect the debris of the plane.
> 
> *Soon after the incident, heavy contingent of PAF, Coast Guards, police and Levies Force rushed to the site and cordoned off the area and launch an inquiry.*
> 
> The aircraft crashed along the countryside of the Attock district, near Khyber Pakhtunkhwa- Punjab border.



Pilot killed as PAF plane crashes in Attock | AAJ News


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## ziaulislam

sad that jf went down. it happens with new aircrafts coming into service due to many factors like pilot and ground men in experience with the equipment ..i was wondering when would it happen.

---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------

any way is it confirmed that its jf-17 or is dawn only reporting it


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## Roybot

[video]http://www.dawn.com/dntv-live/index.html[/video]

You can see the wreckage in the news, badly burnt, hard to identify.


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## PiyaraPakistan

It is very sad news indeed. Many AF in world have these kind of problems so guys keep your morale high. An Old qoute " Girte hen shahswar he maidan-e-jung me".


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## Doctor09

may his soul rest in peace . Ameen

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## blackops

very sad but he will live for ever and will be loved forever you served your country well may you rip

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## Doctor09

Shaheed kabi marta nai ..........
Shaheed ki ju mout hai woh qoum ki hayat hai
Laho ju shaheed ka woh qoum ki zakat hai


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## blackops

haywards said:


> cheap chinese toys...always stop working when required most.....



dont score point on someones death shows how cheap quality your mind is of 

every god damn jet crashes even f22 what about it then is it also cheap

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## nomi007

haywards said:


> cheap chinese toys...always stop working when required most.....


same as Russian


----------



## ice_man

jf-17!!!!! IF THAT IS TRUE THEN IT IS A MAJOR CONCERN!


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## janu.bravo

nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/14-Nov-2011/Pilot-dies-in-PAF-aircraft-crash
asianage.com/international/pakistan-air-force-aircraft-crashes-pilot-killed-213
google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jiaRJ76amhA2MpxGUPz8ciYztegg?docId=1f084f57e7f24b9591418a19f503a1a1

no one is quoting that it's JF-17


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## shbaziz

Express news saying *"Its Trainer jet".*

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## Leviza

express news saying its JF17


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## blackjack

RIP to the pilot and condolences to his family and Sqn.

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## Roybot

The are probably trying to keep it hushed up. Not a good publicity for JF-17. Specially when they are close to clinching few deals.


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## shbaziz

Leviza said:


> express news saying its JF17



I just saw on Express 24/7, they were saying its a "trainer jet"... believe me buddy our media is one shittiest thing around.

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## HavocHeaven

nomi007 said:


> same as Russian



Bro please don't respond to his disgraceful words in his way. Just ignore him. 
We Chinese always say, a tooth for a tooth doesn't apply when a dog bit you.

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## shanixee

HavocHeaven said:


> Bro please don't respond to his disgraceful words in his way. Just ignore him.
> We Chinese always say, a tooth for a tooth doesn't apply when a dog bit you.



well said brother...you have got my vote


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## jawadqamar

crash picture


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## Windjammer

roy_gourav said:


> The are probably trying to keep it hushed up. Not a good publicity for JF-17. Specially when they are close to clinching few deals.



You seem very active and pessimistic on the subject.
It's been confirmed that it was a training aircraft, most likely FT-7.

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## Roybot

Windjammer said:


> You seem very active and pessimistic on the subject.
> *It's been confirmed that it was a training aircraft, most likely FT-7.*



It has?

Why would I be pessimistic, be it JF-17 or F-7 valuable life has been lost. Its just that there is a lot of ambiguity. Lot of news source were/are still reporting JF-17.

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## alibaz

Jab tak na jaley deep shahedun k lahoo say
Kehtay hain k jannat main chiragan nahi hota



Inna Lillah he wa Inna Alaihe Raageon

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## kursed

Confirmed JF-17. Alan Warnes has now confirmed it as well.


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## Doctor09

haywards said:


> cheap chinese toys...always stop working when required most.....


go and spread your venom somewhere else

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## Dazzler

Ft-7 according my info, not jf-17.


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## shbaziz

kursed said:


> Confirmed JF-17. Alan Warnes has now confirmed it as well.



Yes Alan warnes also saying its JFT


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## Devil Soul

PAF JF17 aircraft crashes in Attock
By PPI
Published: November 14, 2011
PAF JF17 aircraft crashes in Attock &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## shbaziz

Alan Warnes tweet:

"Sad news. JF-17 crashed in Pakistan and Sqn Ldr Hussain has been martyed. He was in the formation of 4 I flew with last year."

"Not surprisingly the Pak AF personnel here at dubai are taking it hard. Sqn Ldr Hussain was a JF-17 pioneer and a good guy."


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## alibaz

jawadqamar said:


> crash picture



I have no reason to disbelief Nabil and windjammer but this pic makes me pessimist.


----------



## Peregrine

OMG! i hope that Alan Warns is wrong


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## Devil Soul

Geo is also reporting it was JF-17


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## Doctor09

i wish it would be F-7 not thunder


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## DANGER-ZONE

self deleted


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## Secret Service

I think Pilot's life is more important than where it was JFT or not. 
RIP.May Allah grant him highest place in Jannah.


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## Areesh

Well if it Alan Warne has confirmed that then it is definitely JFT.


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## Don Jaguar

Crash picture.


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## Areesh

By the way some Pakistani members are behaving a bit strange with the JFT crash idea. Come on guys. JFT is also an aircraft like any other aircraft. It might have crashed just like many other aircrafts. One crash doesn't make JFT flop or anything like that.The worst part is that we have lost one brave soldier and that's what we should be concerned for.

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## Manticore




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## Secret Service

Areesh said:


> Well if it Alan Warne has confirmed that then it is definitely JFT.



who is Alan Warne


----------



## Areesh

secretservice said:


> who is Alan Warne



A british journalist.

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## hatf IX

ANTIBODY said:


>



this says, and its also geo . . . .


----------



## Raftar

RIP............

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## Last Hope

It's a thunder....................................
Got confirmed Sqd Ldr Mohammed Hussain Shaheed...

Didn't get the body yet......

May Allah bless the fallen martyr... It was a test flight from Kamra PAC..... maybe the new ones we produced............


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## PiyaraPakistan

Antibody & Hasnain what is your idea/ information about that ?.


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## Last Hope

*According to PAF spokesman, pilot Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain ejected successfully but the parachute failed to open properly. There were no reports of damage as the crash site is a mountainous region.*


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## atlantis_cn

Last Hope said:


> It's a thunder....................................
> Got confirmed Sqd Ldr Mohammed Hussain Shaheed...
> 
> Didn't get the body yet......
> 
> May Allah bless the fallen martyr... It was a test flight from Kamra PAC..... maybe the new ones we produced............



Really a sad news. My condolence to the brave pilot and his family.

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## hatf IX

Its JFT

i think 

But the real loss is the life of a pilot

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## Dr. Strangelove

every plane crashes from f16 f22 b2 etc 
its not a big problem that its a jft or f7
its not a big concern


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## Windjammer

Have just received an e-mail from Alan Warnes and it confirms that it was indeed a JF-17 and the pilot was martyred in the incident.


> alan.warnes@keypublishing.com via srs.bis7.eu.blackberry.com
> 11:07 AM (2 minutes ago)
> 
> to me
> Sadly it is. Sqn Ldr Hussain was martyred.
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

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## regular

Fieldmarshal said:


> A JF-17 Thunder crashed on the "mullah mansoor mountain" Distt attock. The pilot of the ill fate ac ejected safely.
> Witnesses claim that the ac was on fire before it crashed.


Oh damn! It was JF-17 instead of a trainer Aircraft...probably doing some test flight. I hope the pilot be safe somewhere, not found yet...


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## Last Hope

I knew him on facebook.

Facebook profile of Mohammed Hussain Shaheed.


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## Secret Service

regular said:


> It was not JF-17 instead was a trainer Aircraft...an old kind probably poorly maintained with shortage of spares...



looking at the pics above, it was JFT.


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## shbaziz

From the pics above, its confirmed that its JFT.


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## Last Hope

regular said:


> It was not JF-17 instead was a trainer Aircraft...an old kind probably poorly maintained with shortage of spares...



Son, it was a thunder newly produced from Kamra... you may see my older posts....


----------



## Mughal-Prince

Ohhh my God ... I swear upon my life that I was having a bad feeling about thunder from 3 days that something wrong is gonna happen ...

Rest in peace !!!

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## rajnikant

RIP..it was damn parachute..may god bless his soul


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## Doctor09

we can manufacture more aircrafts but today we lost a brave son of nation ... I salute Him


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## Last Hope

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Ohhh my God ... I swear upon my life that I was having a bad feeling about thunder from 3 days that something wrong is gonna happen ...
> 
> Rest in peace !!!



Same here.. I was paranoid last night...

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------




regular said:


> so there is problem with the parachutes too now....



Many times, not for PAF or anyone else, the Ejection seats have problems.. F-16 uses Martin Bakers... Cannot say about JF-17...


----------



## regular

U know what...the Thunder incident realli shocked me...I couldn't expect it to happen means fall like this and the pilot did tried his best but he sacrificed himself....its realli sad, very very sad....
now we have to see the reasons behind this incident...either there was a real fault or something else...a newly built aircraft can't go down like that....plus the eye witnesses saying , it was on fire before falling down....strange to hear that either.....


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## S10

This is the first JF-17 that ever crashed, since its first flight in 2003. The ejection seat contract was given to Martin-Baker, a British company. PAF should to a comprehensive technical review of these seats. Parachute not opening is a serious matter, one worthy of grounding the fleet.


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## Sapper

Last Hope said:


> F-16 uses Martin Bakers... Cannot say about JF-17...



Inna Lillah e Wa Inna Ilaih e Rajioon

May Allah grant courage to Shaheed's family.
Indeed a great loss for Pakistan, PAF and the family of the Shaheed.

F16s dont use Martin Baker, F16s use ACES-II ejection seat ... But JF-17 Thunder uses Martin Baker Mk.16 PK16LF, a varient of Mk-16.
This is the same basic model in use in Eurofighter, Rafael, LCA-Tejas, F35 JSF.

More information can be found on
Martin Baker - Mk. 16 high-speed
Martin Baker Aircraft Co. Ltd. - U.K.

Sad Regards,
Sapper

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## Windjammer

roy_gourav said:


> Will the JF-17's still perform at the Dubai show?
> 
> Parachute malfunction seems like a serious issue



The likes of Mirage-2000s, Fulcrums, Flankers and Grippens have actually crashed while giving an air display.
More than the parachute, i'll say it's the engine which caused both the crash and the casualty.
The pilot could have ejected at such altitude or angle where the parachute didn't have the time to fully deploy.

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## regular

rajnikant said:


> RIP..it was damn parachute..may god bless his soul


We gotta check it out that we didn't get these parachutes from Lock Heed Martin...cuz they got problems in them....


----------



## Last Hope

regular said:


> U know what...the Thunder incident realli shocked me...I couldn't expect it to happen means fall like this and the pilot did tried his best but he sacrificed himself....its realli sad, very very sad....
> now we have to see the reasons behind this incident...either there was a real fault or something else...a newly built aircraft can't go down like that....plus the eye witnesses saying , it was on fire before falling down....strange to hear that either.....



Let's hope to be a bird hit not any problem in Avionics. 



S10 said:


> This is the first JF-17 that ever crashed, since its first flight in 2003. The ejection seat contract was given to Martin-Baker, a British company. PAF should to a comprehensive technical review of these seats. Parachute not opening is a serious matter, one worthy of grounding the fleet.


Looking on the Martin-Bakers, hundreds of times their seats fail. We may see that on *ejection history*'s website.


Sapper said:


> Inna Lillah e Wa Inna Ilaih e Rajioon
> 
> May Allah grant courage to Shaheed's family.
> Indeed a great loss for Pakistan, PAF and the family of the Shaheed.
> 
> F16s dont use Martin Baker, F16s use ACES-II ejection seat ... But JF-17 Thunder uses Martin Baker Mk.16 PK16LF, a varient of Mk-16.
> This is the same basic model in use in Eurofighter, Rafael, LCA-Tejas, F35 JSF.
> 
> More information can be found on
> Martin Baker - Mk. 16 high-speed
> Martin Baker Aircraft Co. Ltd. - U.K.
> 
> Sad Regards,
> Sapper



Thanks for correction.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Every aircraft crashes its not an issue but the worse thing is that pilot is dead. 
It will leave a bad impression on Jf-17, no matter what the reason was and at a time when we are hoping a sale deal. 
So what we gona do after this, will we ground Jf-17 fleet until investigation completes.


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## Areesh

Windjammer said:


> The pilot could have ejected at such altitude or angle where the parachute didn't have the time to fully deploy.



Exactly. It might be possible that the pilot ejected late or the the altitude was low etc etc which didn't allow the parachute to open. Just because parachute didn't open doesn't mean that it is parachute problem. It can be engine or even a bird hit which caused both crash and the causality.

---------- Post added at 04:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------




danger-zone said:


> So what we gona do after this, will we ground Jf-17 fleet until investigation completes.



Obviously. Ground the fleet and investigate what is the reason behind this crash.


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## regular

S10 said:


> This is the first JF-17 that ever crashed, since its first flight in 2003. The ejection seat contract was given to Martin-Baker, a British company. PAF should to a comprehensive technical review of these seats. Parachute not opening is a serious matter, one worthy of grounding the fleet.


Yes! You are absolutely right. thats what issue is important . We shold not get anything imported from the West thats why we can face problems within future.I was thinking maybe we were building our ejection seats plus paracutes. We must develop everything here or from China...We could have saved our precious life.....


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## Last Hope

No. We will not ground the Thunders. It's been years they are in service. Though the newly produced Thunders maybe grounded for checking any avionics problems.
*
This is Squadron Leader Mohammed Hussain *_Shaheed._

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## Mughal-Prince

Last Hope said:


> Same here.. I was paranoid last night...
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Many times, not for PAF or anyone else, the Ejection seats have problems.. F-16 uses Martin Bakers... Cannot say about JF-17...



I think we are so much emotionally attached with it ... It has enhanced our sixth sense ...


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## regular

Areesh said:


> Exactly. It might be possible that the pilot ejected late or the the altitude was low etc etc which didn't allow the parachute to open. Just because parachute didn't open doesn't mean that it is parachute problem. It can be engine or even a bird hit which caused both crash and the causality.



Sir! the altitude doesn't matters for the ejection seat to open up its parachute.It must open regardless the height of its ejection cuz U can see the ejection of the USAF pilots while performing the Air shows and facing accidents . Many times they ejected right above the ground seconds before the aircrafts to hit the ground and they always opened successfully.. I guess our parachutes realli have a problem We realli lost a precious life here owing to our mistakes. I guess the quality of the parachutes/ejection seats system is compromised....

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## Areesh

regular said:


> *Sir! the altitude doesn't matters* for the ejection seat to open up its parachute.It must open regardless the height of its ejection cuz U can see the ejection of the USAF pilots while performing the Air shows and facing accidents . Many times they ejected right above the ground seconds before the aircrafts to hit the ground and they always opened successfully.. I guess our parachutes realli have a problem We realli lost a precious life here owing to our mistakes. I guess the quality of the parachutes/ejection seats system is compromised....



Sir jee it matters. There isn't any compromise on ejection seats. JFT is using one of the best ejection seats. Just look at the number of aircraft using this ejection seat. My take is that it is because of the altitude or the angle at which he ejected that parachute didn't open properly.

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## monitor

After more then eight years of crash free flight it happens . it is not the aircraft but the loss of pilot is very sad indeed .

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## regular

Last Hope said:


> No. We will not ground the Thunders. It's been years they are in service. Though the newly produced Thunders maybe grounded for checking any avionics problems.
> *
> This is Squadron Leader Mohammed Hussain *_Shaheed._


What a handsome man he is...He was a true son of the nation..He did give a sacrifice of his life for the nation...I wish him a great reward in Akhirat and peace....I'm realli getting so much sad that a sincere guy sacrificed everything he had for us ....


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## Roybot




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## regular

Areesh said:


> Sir jee it matters. There isn't any compromise on ejection seats. JFT is using one of the best ejection seats. Just ook at the number of aircraft using this ejection seat. My take is that it is because of the altitude or the angle at which he ejected that parachute didn't open properly.


I hope ure assessments be right and mine wrong about the seats. But I have doubts to bringup in the light what I tried to . I hope we can rectify anykinda problem within its commissioning or testing or quality etc especially the imported stuff from West in it...


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## monitor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Xe83_Api8&feature=share

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## regular

What the heck is this..???? it looks like an explosion..is that due to our Thunder or somethingelse...??....


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## monitor

From munir 
Hussain UK | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Hussain UK

*Killed in JF17 accident on 14-11-2011 near Attock. Parachute did not open. Ejection low altitude.*

*Was present on first JF17 public display at Farnborough 2010.*


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## alibaz

Self deleted


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## sab

monitor said:


> Not sure is it the fire cause by accident .



What photograph is it? The explosion may takes place as soon it crashes...but there are people and ambulance already in the site.


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## DarK-LorD

sab said:


> What photograph is it? The explosion may takes place as soon it crashes...but there are people and ambulance already in the site.


That is the crash of a Xian JH-7 this year in an air show in China.

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## Sapper

Self Delete ...


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## monitor

munir's analysis About the causalities 
*Must be low altitude ejection. The body was not far from the plane. The plane landed horizontally. Looks like flame out (engine problem/bird hit?). I have some serious doubts on the MB ejection seats now. Anyone can confirm which plane? If it is Kamra then it could be a new one just out for testing or one of the test planes...*


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## rockstarIN

RIP to the pilot

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## aziqbal

guys it says its a trainer NOT JF17??


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## Crypto

RIP, brave son of Pakistan. 
We can build more jets but the loss if life is irreparable.

According to eye witnesses it caught fire so probably engine malfunctioned.

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## Mughal-Prince

aziqbal said:


> guys it says its a trainer NOT JF17??



please go through the thread pictures are of JF-17 Thunder ...


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## farhan_9909

i am really very sad about the crash.

bt such incidents happens to any aircraft

RIP to the pilot.

the cause of the crash is what anyone know?


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## JonAsad

I am really deeply hurt-
A brave pilot lost-
what irks me is the parachute thingy-
Such state of the art aircraft and pilot died due to parachute malfunction - 

May his soul rest in peace- i am sure he is in a better place flying with angels -

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## shbaziz

Both the sdns of JFT are based at Peshawar. Does anyone know about the plane, whether it belonged to an operational sqn. or it was a newly built going through testing at Kamra?


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## Safriz

GEO Pakistan
Pilot dies in PAF jet crash
Updated at: 1214 PST, Monday, November 14, 2011
Pilot dies in PAF jet crash ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft JF-17 Thunder, crashed in Attock Distrct also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.

According to PAF spokesman, pilot Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain ejected successfully but the parachute failed to open properly. There were no reports of damage as the crash site is a mountainous region.

Rescue teams reached the site soon after the incident while an investigation board has been set up to investigate the crash.


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## Windjammer

JonAsad said:


> I am really deeply hurt-
> A brave pilot lost-
> what irks me is the parachute thingy-
> Such state of the art aircraft and pilot died due to parachute malfunction -
> 
> May his soul rest in peace- i am sure he is in a better place flying with angels -



If you are not IN it, then you don't win it.
Sadly such hazards come with fast jet flying.....even when the aircraft are on ground.

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## VCheng

I salute the fallen pilot. May he rest in eternal peace.


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## Safriz

GEO is giving conflicting news....


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## Safriz

although it depends on the circumstances at the time of the crash,and at what moment the pilot decided to eject...But still how safe is JF-17 ejection system?

Sometimes the pilots delay too much trying to save the plane or save civilians on the ground,sometimes they get hit by aircraft debris,or the speed was too much at ejection?


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## salmakh84

This is the plane we are trying to "show off" or "sell" at the dubai airshow going on?


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## Xracer

safriz said:


> GEO Pakistan
> Pilot dies in PAF jet crash
> Updated at: 1214 PST, Monday, November 14, 2011
> Pilot dies in PAF jet crash ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft JF-17 Thunder, crashed in Attock Distrct also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.
> 
> According to PAF spokesman, pilot Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain ejected successfully but the parachute failed to open properly. There were no reports of damage as the crash site is a mountainous region.
> 
> Rescue teams reached the site soon after the incident while an investigation board has been set up to investigate the crash.


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## monitor

Xracer said:


> its wasJ-7 / F-7 Airguard dual seater trainer variant not JF17 thunder



No friend the picture clearly shows it was A jf-17 even senior member like from pakdef munir disclose it


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## shbaziz

Xracer said:


> its wasJ-7 / F-7 Airguard dual seater trainer variant not JF17 thunder



Go through the thread.. pics are given on previous pages.. It was JFT sadly, and more sadly, the pilot couldnt make it.


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## Xracer

monitor said:


> No friend the picture clearly shows it was A jf-17 even senior member like from pakdef munir disclose it


Sorry my Bad it Was JF17 Thunder
and the Pilot


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## Windjammer

Xracer said:


> its wasJ-7 / F-7 Airguard dual seater trainer variant not JF17 thunder



Sadly it was a JF-17, check out the nose cone....also confirmed to me by Alan Warnes.








alan.warnes@keypublishing.com via srs.bis7.eu.blackberry.com 
11:07 AM (3 hours ago)

to me 
Sadly it is. Sqn Ldr Hussain was martyred.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device


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## monitor

yea sad news but it had passed 10000 hr crash less fright hour thats ton a small achievement for Pakistan


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## Lord Of Gondor

regular said:


> I guess we need to sue the parachute company for these low quality stuff providing to us......


MB still is one of the best in the business!
I'm sure that they will take note of the incident to improve the quality of their equipment.
RIP to the brave pilot.
Martin Baker - Ejection Seats
The cousins of the JFT ejection seats also serves on the Lightening 2,EF2000 etc!
Martin Baker - Mk. 16 high-speed


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## mjnaushad

regular said:


> Mod edit: with due respect never quote nonesense post:



With due respect..... THAT WAS STUPID.

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## Imran Khan

first of all RIP to brave solder and its really sad to seen a pilot lose his life

*those who are sad for JF-17 *dear brothers it was expected since 2003 that jf-17 will crash its first crash but not last .every jet face this day so jf-17 face it today .don't make funny comments blames conspiracies and other scrap .it was flying and it must crash on day .i have no bad feeling no pain for jet .every fighter bomber transport plane crash and its not something unexpected or new .still jf-17 is best for us and yep its our pride and we will make them more and more to cover up old jets .

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## Varad

Very sad incident. RIP to the brave man. The millions of dollars gone or a new fighter gone does not matter. What matters is the 
loss of a brave and skilled pilot.

My condolences for Sqd Ldr Hussain

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## VelocuR

*PAF JF17 aircraft crashes in Attock*

ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF17 jet crashed into Mullah Mansoor mountain in Attock on Monday. The jet was on a routine operational training mission when it crashed, *killing the pilot on board.*

Rescue teams found the body of Squadron Leader Mohammad Hussain three kilometers from the crash site.

Media reports had earlier stated that the pilot was safe after the jet had crashed on Mullah Mansoor mountains near Mansar Town after taking off from Kamra Airbase.

A regimental centre of the Pakistan Army known as AK Regimental Center is also located at Mansar.

The authorities have so far not given the reason for the crash.

PAF authorities dispatched helicopters and rescue teams to the crash site. The fire was put out by locals and the rescue teams.

Police have cordoned off the area and rescue teams have launched an operation to clear the debris.

An investigation board has been set up to probe the matter.

------------------------
JF-17 crashed in Attock; pilot killed

Attock: Pakistan&#8217;s joint fighter JF-17 Thunder crashed in hilly area of Attock district on Monday.
Sources said that Pilot Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain was killed and the jet fighter was completely destroyed in the incident.

*They said that the pilot ejected but his parachute did not open.*
*His body was found one-and-a-half kilometre away from the crash site. Hussain&#8217;s body was shifted to Kamra Aeronautical Complex.*

The impressive JF-17 (Thunder) jointly co-developed (by PAF & CATIC), and co-produced by PAC (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex) and CATIC (China Aero-technology Import Export Corporation) has been put up for static as well as aerial display in the Dubai Air Show this year.

------------------------

PAF JF-17 Crash Near Attock - YouTube

Please keep silence for a moment due to the first pilot death from JF-17...first crash since 2007..


----------



## air marshal

*Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain shaheed, 4th from left*

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## Windjammer

*A brief breakdown showing all the top end fighter aircraft have had a mishap at some point and what's more most of these were twin engine jets meaning that extra bit safety in an emergency.*


Image: French rafale jet crashes part of A French Rafale Fighter Jet Crashed in Arabian Sea

http://www.****************/eurofighter-typhoon-crash-27447/

2 die in U.S. fighter jet crash in Afghanistan - CNN.com

Pilot killed in first Sukhoi-30 crash - Times Of India

MiG-29 crashes in Himachal Pradesh - Times Of India

Apache Clips - JAS Gripen Crashes During An Air Show

2 dead as Super Hornet crashes near Lemoore - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times

Lucky Puppy Aviation: F-22 Raptor Crashes- Pilot Killed

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## Manticore

air marshal said:


> *Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain shaheed, 4th from left*

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## VelocuR

Don't be SAD, guys! 

It is FIRST opportunity for Pakistan technical teams to investigate the issues and parachutes problem in this first crash !!!!! 

unfortunately RIP to the pilots, what the hell parachute problem??

*The first Flight took place on 25th August 2003 & since then none of the birds both prototypes and Operational have Crashed.*


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## Safriz

This is very serious malfunction....
lets see what thwe investigation reveals..Althogh its unlikely that the investigation will ever leak into public domains...
A very public accident of the airblue plane crash still no report why it happened.


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## aziqbal

Windjammer said:


> *A brief breakdown showing all the top end fighter aircraft have had a mishap at some point and what's more most of these were twin engine jets meaning that extra bit safety in an emergency.*
> 
> 
> Image: French rafale jet crashes part of A French Rafale Fighter Jet Crashed in Arabian Sea
> 
> http://www.****************/eurofighter-typhoon-crash-27447/
> 
> 2 die in U.S. fighter jet crash in Afghanistan - CNN.com
> 
> Pilot killed in first Sukhoi-30 crash - Times Of India
> 
> MiG-29 crashes in Himachal Pradesh - Times Of India
> 
> Apache Clips - JAS Gripen Crashes During An Air Show
> 
> 2 dead as Super Hornet crashes near Lemoore - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times
> 
> Lucky Puppy Aviation: F-22 Raptor Crashes- Pilot Killed



we dont care about the aircraft, 100 of them can crash, more can made but its our fighter pilot sqaudron leader mohammed hussian that is our greatest loss

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## Safriz

ANTIBODY said:


>



Was he the pilot of the unfortunate plane?


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## VelocuR

Relax, it doesn't the *END* of JF-17s productions. It is better first crash instead first shoot down. 

Many people have common problems, when they broke up with the girlfriend, they feel their life is completely over. LOLs. 

Keep in love with JF-17s !

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## DANGER-ZONE

Bharthi said:


> The only culprit must be the Engine.



As witnesses mentioned, the aircraft was flaming out. Most probably, YES, an Engine malfunction.


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## Windjammer

aziqbal said:


> we dont care about the aircraft, 100 of them can crash, more can made but its our fighter pilot sqaudron leader mohammed hussian that is our greatest loss





> cheap copied chineeese crap, what else do u expect?


Indeed, it's the pilot which is an irreplaceable loss, but.... 
When some idiots leave these kind of comments......you need to give them a knock on their head in a faint hope to activate the other brain cell. !!

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## cloneman

R.I.P to the PAF pilot.Loose one JF-17 is nothing,but loose an experienced pilot is everything.The CAC,PAC and PAF should form a joint investigation group to see what happened on the fighter and make improvement on the future JF-17s.I don't think this accident will change anything on the JF-17 project,and it's an opptunity for us to learn and improve to make the JF-17 stronger and stronger.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

I will go up and will kiss the sky
I am a tiger of earth and eagle to fly
I have no worries about my self
I had put the hope 'to live long' upon the shelf
I am going to be the first in the battle ground
From the love of my country I'm proud
If I die in a battle zone,
Box me up and send me home,
Put the rifle on my chest
Tell my mom I did my best
Tell my nation not to cry
I am the soldier born to die
My soul is trampling everywhere
My voice echoing far in the air
I ask from God about my nation
God replies if the nation have son like you
No power on earth can split them into two
Tell my family not to cry
I was a soldier born to die
Angels are present giving me comfort
But I miss you my parents all with love........




RIP to Sqd. Ldr Muhammad Hussein Shaheed. . .




to die for one's country is greatest honour of all





&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1575; &#1604;&#1616;&#1604;&#1617;&#1607;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1600;&#1575; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1607;&#1616; &#1585;&#1614;&#1575;&#1580;&#1616;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614;

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## regular

danger-zone said:


> What are you talking about man ...


Oh I'm very much concerned about the loss of life witin the crash. Want to have double safety standards even far better than the Europeans do... The aircrafts can be made again but the pilots are irreplaceable....can't afford the loss of our pilots....

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## regular

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1575; &#1604;&#1616;&#1604;&#1617;&#1607;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1600;&#1575; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1607;&#1616; &#1585;&#1614;&#1575;&#1580;&#1616;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614;


See how handsome looking guy he is. He sacrificed everything he had for his country. How intelligent and decent looking guy he is ...Its the real loss of the nation. A true nation son.....making me feel so sad for his friends colleagues, family and especially the PAF....

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## dilpakistani

regular said:


> Oh I'm very much concerned about the loss of life witin the crash. Want to have double safety standards even far better than the Europeans do... The aircrafts can be made again but the pilots are irreplaceable....can't afford the loss of our pilots....


 
Bird got swallowed in to the engine... which resulted in engine malfunction .... fire errupted from the engine after that....Aircraft was at low altitude and it seems that Hussain tried to crash it to the safe place to avoid civilian damage.


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## regular

RaptorRX707 said:


> Relax, it doesn't the *END* of JF-17s productions. It is better first crash instead first shoot down.
> 
> Many people have common problems, when they broke up with the girlfriend, they feel their life is completely over. LOLs.
> 
> Keep in love with JF-17s !


U know what?..
Now our pilots have shown their greatest love for the Thunders not even caring about their lives.....

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## Abu Zolfiqar

regular said:


> See how handsome looking guy he is. He sacrificed everything he had for his country. How intelligent and decent looking guy he is ...Its the real loss of the nation. A true nation son.....making me feel so sad for his friends colleagues, family and especially the PAF....



it's been difficult to swallow this news this morning; definitely not the news i wanted to wake up to....i remember very well seeing this handsome young man's face @ Farnborough exhibit; in fact he was one of the main faces of the show while the other tech/ground guys did their duties. May Allah SWT bless this martyr's place in Jannat. Bless his family friends/colleagues and loved ones

sad day for PAF and for Pakistani Nation....


an inquiry will be made and whatever fault(s) there were, they must be corrected and never repeated again. JF-17 Thunder program will continue unabated and see more success; Sdn. Ldr. Hussein was very much a part of this success and he saw it during his great (but sadly cut short) career

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Inna Lillah e Wa Inna Ilaih e Rajioon

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## conworldus

Engine malfunction?? RIP


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## VelocuR

Our humble Salutes to *Sqd. Ldr Muhammad Hussein Shaheed*

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## PakShaheen79

Ina Lillah hi wa Ina Alihe Rajioon.

RIP. Squd. Leader Hussain.


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## shbaziz

dilpakistani said:


> Bird got swallowed in to the engine... which resulted in engine malfunction .... fire errupted from the engine after that....Aircraft was at low altitude and it seems that Hussain tried to crash it to the safe place to avoid civilian damage.



Are u sure the cause was a "bird strike"?


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## Tiger Awan

RIP

just saw the news on my Fb gadget. Have a though tough paper tomorrow. I decided not to come here but this news forced me


We lost a brave pilot + his experience in JF-17 program



dilpakistani said:


> Bird got swallowed in to the engine... which resulted in engine malfunction .... fire errupted from the engine after that....Aircraft was at low altitude and it seems that Hussain tried to crash it to the safe place to avoid civilian damage.




you sure? any newspaper reporting?


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## GORKHALI

RIP TO PILOT ..Not expected that it happens so soon with such a relatively new Plane JF17.There might be some Engine or some structural problem with JF 17 .


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## fjavaid

Dear senior members..
please do share the cause of the malfunction or "Flame out/Bird strike" as we are hearing it now.... as soon as some finding are made....


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## TOPGUN

Very sad news i just to found out about it.. RIP to the brave pilot and may his family be eased of the pain. As for the thunder its sad we lost a aircraft but it can be replaced but a human life is precious very sad news indeed.


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## Xracer

Imran Khan said:


> first of all RIP to brave solder and its really sad to seen a pilot lose his life
> 
> *those who are sad for JF-17 *dear brothers it was expected since 2003 that jf-17 will crash its first crash but not last .every jet face this day so jf-17 face it today .don't make funny comments blames conspiracies and other scrap .it was flying and it must crash on day .i have no bad feeling no pain for jet .every fighter bomber transport plane crash and its not something unexpected or new .still jf-17 is best for us and yep its our pride and we will make them more and more to cover up old jets .


Yes sir Sure Thunder is our Pride
Best was Best is and best Will Inshallah


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## Rafi

A Warrior and the son of our land is in heaven today, RIP - he will not be forgotten - he is one of the pioneers - and don't worry about JFT it is going from strength to strength.


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## Abingdonboy

Unfortunate timing for JF-17. 

RIP aviator.


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## Xracer

Abingdonboy said:


> Unfortunate timing for JF-17.
> 
> RIP aviator.


Well your Ture my Friend but this happens dont forget that crashes can happens on airshows tooooo and happens


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## krash

PANDORA said:


> RIP TO PILOT ..Not expected that it happens so soon with such a relatively new Plane JF17.There might be some Engine or some structural problem with JF 17 .



^^^Ignore this excuse of a man please this is not the time. Do not reply.


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## Abingdonboy

Xracer said:


> Well your Ture my Friend but this happens dont forget that crashes can happens on airshows tooooo and happens



Of course, fast jet aviation is by nature hazardous, there is a reson the first thing a pilot does when entering a cockpit is strap themselves into an ejection seat.


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## SBD-3

Sqd Ldr Hussain (Shaheed)'s memories from High-mark 2010 flying -08-107 (AFM)

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## dilpakistani

shbaziz said:


> Are u sure the cause was a "bird strike"?



Yes. Brother is ground technician in peshawar air base.


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## Major Sam

dilpakistani said:


> Yes. Brother is ground technician in peshawar air base.



mean bird strike is the cause for this sad incident


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## Obambam

It is unfortunate for plane crashes to occur, but like all machinery, it does. When a car breaks down on the road it remains relatively safe so long there are no crazy drivers about, but what can people do when it breaks down in mid air? 
May the brave and talented one rest in peace..

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## MJaa

This picture confirms that crashed aircraft was indeed JF-17 Thunder.

*Read more: Crash Site Images Confirming JF-17 Thunder Crash ~ Pakistan Military Review*

RD-93 and LERXs of JF-17 can be seen in this picture


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## Rafi

According to my sources, engine flamed out, possible cause is a object was sucked into inlet, working theory is a bird or maybe some other debris.


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## SBD-3

Rafi said:


> According to my sources, engine flamed out, possible cause is a object was sucked into inlet, working theory is a bird or maybe some other debris.


What was the flight altitude when this happen....you dont expect birds at high altitudes, do you?


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## Irfan Baloch

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I will go up and will kiss the sky
> I am a tiger of earth and eagle to fly
> I have no worries about my self
> I had put the hope 'to live long' upon the shelf
> I am going to be the first in the battle ground
> From the love of my country I'm proud
> If I die in a battle zone,
> Box me up and send me home,
> Put the rifle on my chest
> Tell my mom I did my best
> Tell my nation not to cry
> I am the soldier born to die
> My soul is trampling everywhere
> My voice echoing far in the air
> I ask from God about my nation
> God replies if the nation have son like you
> No power on earth can split them into two
> Tell my family not to cry
> I was a soldier born to die
> Angels are present giving me comfort
> But I miss you my parents all with love........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RIP to Sqd. Ldr Muhammad Hussein Shaheed. . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to die for one's country is greatest honour of all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1575; &#1604;&#1616;&#1604;&#1617;&#1607;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1600;&#1575; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1607;&#1616; &#1585;&#1614;&#1575;&#1580;&#1616;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614;



during the Farnborough show I went to the JF-17 stall and saw the crew with the aircrafts. I saw this pilot there too if I am not mistaken the picture seems to be from the show in Brition back in 2010.

he was surrounded by a group of people who wont let anyone through to speak to him. "typical Pakistani attitude" I thought to myself and waited patiently.

the pilot despite his position and all the attention he was getting was very freindly and pleasent. to one question he was saying that the plane will be flying in Chinese show and will be coming to Brition again in 2012. there was a pause from the people and I got the chance to address him and said 
"Inshallah we will see you fly here then."

he looked at me paused and then said "inshallah"..

Inshallah means if god permits if its Gods Will, as it happens the God's Will was to take this chap from this world.

May his soul rest in peace. 
Amen

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## Hyde

Irfan Baloch said:


> during the Farnborough show I went to the JF-17 stall and saw the crew with the aircrafts. I saw this pilot there too if I am not mistaken the picture seems to be from the show in Brition back in 2010.
> 
> he was surrounded by a group of people who wont let anyone through to speak to him. "typical Pakistani attitude" I thought to myself and waited patiently.
> 
> the pilot despite his position and all the attention he was getting was very freindly and pleasent. to one question he was saying that the plane will be flying in Chinese show and will be coming to Brition again in 2012. there was a pause from the people and I got the chance to address him and said
> "Inshallah we will see you fly here then."
> 
> he looked at me paused and then said "inshallah"..
> 
> Inshallah means if god permits if its Gods Will, as it happens the God's Will was to take this chap from this world.
> 
> May his soul rest in peace.
> Amen



I second that, I was also there in Farnborough and saw this pilot over there. I also met him (if i am not wrong) and he was very gentle. Despite the fact many people were surrounding him he was very patient and replying to each and every single question asked by the public.

Inna lilla hai wa inna ellaihi raji'oon

Most of the time i was busy talking with the technicians and he was relaxing on the chair alongside a little boy who I believe must be his relative or son may be and when we he came near us, he was very humble and patriotic in his language

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## maverick1977

safriz said:


> Was he the pilot of the unfortunate plane?




to you my brother, may allah bless your soul .......

Dire Straits "Brothers In Arms" - YouTube

other one to all every soldier, you are born to fight and to die for your God, country and people

Born to be wasted -009 sound system PAkistan (TIN MAN) kundi - YouTube


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## Safriz

same here...met the Pakistani squad at farnborough and this pilot was among them..
So sad.......
Never mind the plane..its an object which can be rebuilt or replaced..But the Pilot will never come back...
so sad...


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## Windjammer

*Our Shaheed warrior with fellow PAF personal talking to the media.*
Guys, it's a sad day.!!

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## Areesh

By the way what was the serial number of the crashed aircraft?


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## Areesh

dilpakistani said:


> Bird got swallowed in to the engine... which resulted in engine malfunction .... fire errupted from the engine after that....Aircraft was at low altitude and it seems that Hussain tried to crash it to the safe place to avoid civilian damage.


 
Humm your post makes sense. Stupid bird.


----------



## Safriz

dilpakistani said:


> Bird got swallowed in to the engine... which resulted in engine malfunction .... fire errupted from the engine after that....Aircraft was at low altitude and it seems that Hussain tried to crash it to the safe place to avoid civilian damage.


the video shows an empty area where the plane crashed..
This was part of a war game..and war games are not held in built up areas.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

MAY ALLAH BLESS THE AIR WARRIOR AND GIVE PATIENCE N STRENGHT TO HIS LOVED ONES... 

A TRAGIC LOSS TO THE NATION.


----------



## Windjammer




----------



## Last Hope

dilpakistani said:


> Bird got swallowed in to the engine... which resulted in engine malfunction .... fire errupted from the engine after that....Aircraft was at low altitude and it seems that Hussain tried to crash it to the safe place to avoid civilian damage.



Hello.

Your last line is incorrect. The place of crash was far away from civilization and any human presence. 
It is likely to be a bird-hit. It may take a low as 3 second for the jet to crash if in medium altitude and even less on medium-low altitude.

Till the reaction time of pilot, the jet may even get crashed.

The only scenario we get logically is, the Thunder was flying in medium-low altitude _(must make sure here birds can't fly soaring high)_. If it were, and F.O.D entering the engines, means flamed and the jet falling down. Now it is the vector/displacement which took place. One second ago Hussain was flying and next second he didn't know what happened. But when he did, it was too late and he already hit the ejection lever in final moments.. We must assume him to eject over 50-80 meters from the level of mountain _(as his body was found near 3km away)._

The theory of him taking it to a safe place and ejecting is wrong. It is 99% logical that he was flying on low altitude which means less reaction time.

Too sad he couldn't make it.

Thanks for your input.

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## Rafi

hasnain0099 said:


> What was the flight altitude when this happen....you dont expect birds at high altitudes, do you?



It was also the reason why the fleet was not grounded. And the flight at the Dubai air show went ahead. When flame out occurred aircraft was at low altitude apparently.


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## VelocuR

Areesh said:


> By the way what was the serial number of the crashed aircraft?



I suspect, it would be between 10-112/120


----------



## Safriz

Windjammer said:


>



The plane looks like crashed on the hill side...
This must have been a factor towards the Unfortunate death of the pilot...
It may be that after he eject,there was not enough height for the parachute to open,as the ground rose ..
just an speculation


----------



## mikkix

ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF17 jet crashed into Mullah Mansoor mountain in Attock on Monday. The jet was on a routine operational training mission when it crashed, killing the pilot on board.

Rescue teams found the body of Squadron Leader Mohammad Hussain three kilometers from the crash site.

Media reports had earlier stated that the pilot was safe after the jet had crashed on Mullah Mansoor mountains near Mansar Town after taking off from Kamra Airbase.

A regimental centre of the Pakistan Army known as AK Regimental Center is also located at Mansar.

The authorities have so far not given the reason for the crash.

PAF authorities dispatched helicopters and rescue teams to the crash site. The fire was put out by locals and the rescue teams.

Police have cordoned off the area and rescue teams have launched an operation to clear the debris.

An investigation board has been set up to probe the matter.

PAF JF17 aircraft crashes in Attock &#8211; The Express Tribune

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-crashed-attock-pilot-killed.html#post2288678


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## Hyde

Windjammer said:


> *Our Shaheed warrior with fellow PAF personal talking to the media.*
> Guys, it's a sad day.!!



yeah same Pilot... I met him at Farnborough. I asked technicians who were flying these Aircrafts before landing at Farnborough and they pointed out towards him when he was sitting on the chair. Later he came close to me and we talked for few minutes.

This is better version of the video posted above... watch from 9 minutes and 48 seconds






I think i have his picture in my album, must be somewhere in my hard drive... trying to find it

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## Trisonics

Last Hope said:


> Hello.
> 
> Your last line is incorrect. The place of crash was far away from civilization and any human presence.
> It is likely to be a bird-hit. It may take a low as 3 second for the jet to crash if in medium altitude and even less on medium-low altitude.
> 
> Till the reaction time of pilot, the jet may even get crashed.
> 
> The only scenario we get logically is, the Thunder was flying in medium-low altitude _(must make sure here birds can't fly soaring high)_. If it were, and F.O.D entering the engines, means flamed and the jet falling down. Now it is the vector/displacement which took place. One second ago Hussain was flying and next second he didn't know what happened. But when he did, it was too late and he already hit the ejection lever in final moments.. We must assume him to eject over 50-80 meters from the level of mountain _(as his body was found near 3km away)._
> 
> The theory of him taking it to a safe place and ejecting is wrong. It is 99% logical that he was flying on low altitude which means less reaction time.
> 
> Too sad he couldn't make it.
> 
> Thanks for your input.



The pilot seemed to be in some control till the last minute I think. There seems to be no deep craters that plane was found in (speculating since the pic does not tell the entire story) It may have hit at the base and slid up the slope. 

I have this uneasy feeling that the pilot thought the situation was recoverable and may be trying to the save the craft till the very end. Whatever it may be, this is a very sad story. RIP Mr. Pilot and my deepest condolences to your family and loved ones.

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## Windjammer

safriz said:


> The plane looks like crashed on the hill side...
> This must have been a factor towards the Unfortunate death of the pilot...
> It may be that after he eject,there was not enough height for the parachute to open,as the ground rose ..
> just an speculation



The jet looks to be lying on it's back, parachute not deploying could be down to several factors....altitude, angle of ejection or a just a malfunction in the escape mechanism.
It's worth noting the damage a bird strike can cause to a fast jet engine when the impact is seen on a massive Boeing Power plant.


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## ChineseTiger1986

My deep condolence to the fallen veteran pilot. 

Hopefully they can find out the problem as soon as possible, the sacrifice of a diamond pilot should not be in vain.

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## Rafi

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> My deep condolence to the fallen veteran pilot.
> 
> Hopefully they can find out the problem as soon as possible, the sacrifice of a diamond pilot should not be in vain.



Thank you for the kind words brother, all indications are it was a bird strike, that is why the fleet of JFT's has not been grounded or the planned display at the Dubai Air Show been postponed or cancelled. It is just the unfortunate price you have to pay with fast jet aviation.


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## Last Hope

Trisonics said:


> *The pilot seemed to be in some control till the last minute* I think. There seems to be no deep craters that plane was found in (speculating since the pic does not tell the entire story) It may have hit at the base and slid up the slope.
> 
> I have this uneasy feeling that the pilot thought the situation was recoverable and may be trying to the save the craft till the very end. Whatever it may be, this is a very sad story. RIP Mr. Pilot and my deepest condolences to your family and loved ones.



No. Last minute ejection wont be successful. The pilot knows that too. And even if ejected at last moment, he wouldn't land over 3KM away. The ejection was successful but the chutes failed.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

*LETS HONOUR THE FALLEN AIR WARRIOR BY OBSERVING 2 MINUTES OF SILENCE STARTING AT 3:40AM APPROX AFTER 3 MINUTES.*


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## dilpakistani

Windjammer said:


> The jet looks to be lying on it's back, parachute not deploying could be down to several factors....altitude, angle of ejection or a just a malfunction in the escape mechanism.
> It's worth noting the damage a bird strike can cause to a fast jet engine when the impact is seen on a massive Boeing Power plant.


 
yes this is what had happened to this fatefull fighter.... my brother is a ground technician who is stationed at peshawar air base. Haven't heard about the incident untill talked to him in the evening...the reason told to them is that bird was sucked in to the engine which caused the malfunction....pilot reported that to its ground controller few 2nds before crash....and pilot got killed bkz of late exit from the aircraft.... might be because he was struggling to take aircraft out of civilian vicinity..


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## VelocuR

New Radar Technology Aims to Reduce Bird Strikes 

Detail View: Birds on Radar intersecting Flight 1549 - YouTube

New Radar Technology Aims to Reduce Bird Strikes - YouTube

Bird Strike Radar Intro by DeTect CEO - YouTube

The U.S. Air Force is currently testing bird strike radar systems at four airports and one bombing range. Each radar unit gathers data about a different aspect of bird and aircraft interactions, from individual starlings to flocks of Canada geese around low level bombing runs to high altitude dog fights.

Using the data gathered from these five bird radar units, the USAF wants to develop a handbook, for how pilots and airports can most effectively use bird strike radar.

Bird strike radar is estimated to cost about $300,000 to $500,000 for each unit. Merritt claims that by reducing the number of bird strikes by even 10 percent will pay back the cost of the radar system. DeTect Inc. claims that its radar system can reduce bird strikes by up to 80 percent.

Officials and both DeTect Inc. and the USAF say that bird strike radar can't prevent all bird strikes. Birds are simply too good at flying, able to perform maneuvers and change course much more quickly that any human-controlled aircraft.

"Birds can do a lot of things that we are still learning how to do," said LeBeouf. "They wrote the book on flying, we are just poor students."


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## DESERT FIGHTER

*Rafi and Raptor plz remove ur thanks from my post.. no.1256... i did it to honour the air warrior not to get brownie points.. no offence.. thank you.*


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## Rafi

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> *Rafi and Raptor plz remove ur thanks from my post.. no.1256... i did it to honour the air warrior not to get brownie points.. no offence.. thank you.*



Non Taken bruv.


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## Manticore



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## Rafi

ANTIBODY said:


>



RIP 



Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns!" he said.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Some one had blunder'd.
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of hell
Rode the six hundred.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn'd in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wonder'd.
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not,
Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder'd.
Honor the charge they made!
Honor the Light Brigade,

by Alfred Tennyson.
Noble six hundred!

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## mautkimaut

Rafi said:


> RIP
> 
> 
> 
> Half a league, half a league,
> Half a league onward,
> All in the valley of Death
> Rode the six hundred.
> "Forward the Light Brigade!
> Charge for the guns!" he said.
> Into the valley of Death
> Rode the six hundred.
> 
> Forward, the Light Brigade!"
> Was there a man dismay'd?
> Not tho' the soldier knew
> Some one had blunder'd.
> Theirs not to make reply,
> Theirs not to reason why,
> Theirs but to do and die.
> Into the valley of Death
> Rode the six hundred.
> 
> Cannon to right of them,
> Cannon to left of them,
> Cannon in front of them
> Volley'd and thunder'd;
> Storm'd at with shot and shell,
> Boldly they rode and well,
> Into the jaws of Death,
> Into the mouth of hell
> Rode the six hundred.
> 
> Flash'd all their sabres bare,
> Flash'd as they turn'd in air
> Sabring the gunners there,
> Charging an army, while
> All the world wonder'd.
> Plunged in the battery-smoke
> Right thro' the line they broke;
> Cossack and Russian
> Reel'd from the sabre-stroke
> Shatter'd and sunder'd.
> Then they rode back, but not,
> Not the six hundred.
> 
> Cannon to right of them,
> Cannon to left of them,
> Cannon behind them
> Volley'd and thunder'd;
> Storm'd at with shot and shell,
> While horse and hero fell,
> They that had fought so well
> Came thro' the jaws of Death,
> Back from the mouth of hell,
> All that was left of them,
> Left of six hundred.
> 
> When can their glory fade?
> O the wild charge they made!
> All the world wonder'd.
> Honor the charge they made!
> Honor the Light Brigade,
> 
> by Alfred Tennyson.
> Noble six hundred!



RIP the brave soldier..


----------



## Donatello

Ya Allah Reham ker!

RIP to the pioneering pilot!


----------



## houshanghai

salute to this great martyr,God bless pilot

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## Lahorie

Bich're kuch is ada se keh rut hi badal gai
Ik shakhs saare shehar ko weeran kar gaya


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## hatf IX

f-16 bird strike


----------



## PiyaraPakistan

Windjammer said:


>


 Is it JF-17 Serial # 08-107?


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## hatf IX

Windjammer said:


>



if u look at the image the plan crashed up side down, may be this is the reason polit did't survived. 
mean if he ejected late and plane is up side down, then first seat has to make it self staright and than shoute get opend . . .

---------- Post added at 10:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 AM ----------




PiyaraPakistan said:


> Is it JF-17 Serial # 08-107?



than its the old one . . . 

a serious investigation should have to be made for the cause of crash . . . .

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## Comet

It is a Sad Sad event. I am deeply sadden to hear this.


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## Rafi

hatf IX said:


> if u look at the image the plan crashed up side down, may be this is the reason polit did't survived.
> mean if he ejected late and plane is up side down, then first seat has to make it self staright and than shoute get opend . . .
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> than its the old one . . .
> 
> a serious investigation should have to be made for the cause of crash . . . .




Initial investigation has taken place, bird strike is looking like the cause, JFT fleet has not been grounded, and the display team in Dubai has been given the go-ahead to carry on.

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## DANGER-ZONE

hasnain0099 said:


> *Sqd Ldr Hussain (Shaheed)'s *memories from High-mark 2010 flying *-08-107* (AFM)



After knowing the serial no. of aircraft, i was shocked once again. 
See what i drew a few months ago ..... 








> HIGH MARKS OF THUNDER
> JF-17 Thunder (serial# 08-107) dropping MK-82 General Purpose Bombs on a mock target in exercise High Marks 2010. Another JF-17 (serial# 08-108) behind, having a little dark camouflage, is turning towards the scene. Date of the event is 29/3/2010. PAF Falcons - Picture Gallery - Aviation Art by Wahaj Ahmed Siddiqui - Pakistan Air Force



RIP

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## Mughal-Prince

melb4aust said:


> PAF lost one of its F-7 Fighter jet during a normal training mission in Attock near Dhok Pathan. Unfortunately Pilot lost his life(Shaheed) too. Though there was loss of ground life. Airheadquarter has already formed an inquiry board to find out the reason of the crash.
> 
> We have gotta wait for more latest news to find out who was the pilot, how this incident happen.
> But that was really bad for us, especially the loss of a life a pilot. We need JF-17 soon to phase out these old F-7's.



Well did some 1 noticed that first news of crash in this thread is also from *Attock* ... Can we link them together ... I mean is their bird strikes occurrence is more their instead of other places ... Just thinking ...


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## zavis2003

I like the words of Pakistani Nationalist and i think that what has done is well done in sense of saving the lives of many pilots , because by giving up the life for nation Mr Hussain has pinpoint the problems in our fighting birds and now the engineers would think about it how to tackle with the ejection failures at low altitudes , maybe they use the same parachute techniq which para troopers use at low altitude jumps.


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## ZaYYaF

Inna lilla hai wa inna ellaihi raji'oon

Brave Shaheen may you rest in peace!


----------



## VCheng

I know from firsthand experience what such a sudden loss does to a family, PAF, and the nation. It is a loss beyond imagination for those left behind, but everyone understands and accepts the will of Allah, for these brave souls create the expertise and experience that benefits the whole nation at the ultimate personal price.

The foundations of the walls of the nation's defense are red for a reason.

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## Wingman

RaptorRX707 said:


> Our humble Salutes to *Sqd. Ldr Muhammad Hussein Shaheed*






RIP Brave Pilot..........

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## Skywalker

A sad day for the nation, it has lost a brave son. RIP brother.


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## monitor

*pshamim's view on this accident *


> In my view this accident was caused by a bird strike. Aircraft was flying very low and I am sure that aircraft was providing clear situation awareness due to the radar altimeter in the aircraft. So flying at a high angle of attack causing the wing to stop flying is out of question. You never fly with such AOA at low altitude.
> That leaves the bird strike the only plausible cause specially the low altitude the aircraft was at and where most accidents are caused by bird strikes.

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## shuntmaster

RIP to the pilot.
Any official news regarding the cause of the crash?


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## onhisown

all of the chinese military fans feel sad when heard the horrible crash, i believe we had the same feeling, for the pilot , for the joint project, for paf and their family

WISH pakistan become stronger and stronger!!

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## air marshal

*Brave pilot*
November 16, 2011

A JF-17 fighter jet of the Pakistan Air Force crashed near Attock recently. In his attempt to save a residential area, the pilot of the plane ejected from it when it had reached very close to the ground. Unfortunately, his parachute didn&#8217;t open and he lost his life. The question is: why didn&#8217;t the parachute open? The JF Thunder is a state-of-the-art aircraft and any kind of technical malfunction in the plane is shocking.

I personally knew the late Squadron-Leader M Hussain. We had met on the Eid day only. He was such an energetic young man. I feel sorry for his family, especially his little children. I request the PAF authorities to ensure thorough checking of all aircraft before flights to avoid such accidents.

Faheem Ullah

Kamra

Brave pilot


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## Rafi

The probable cause was that the brave pilot stayed in the aircraft too long before ejecting, the plane was inverted, and altitude was so low, that the parachute deployed, but was enable to stop terminal velocity.


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## fatman17

sad news indeed.
RIP Brave Soldier!


----------



## fatman17

*DUBAI: JF-17 crashes in Pakistan's Kamra* 

By: Greg Waldron Dubai 

A Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 fighter aircraft operated by the Pakistan air force has crashed shortly after taking from Kamra air base, killing the pilot, an industry source said.

The PAF confirmed that the aircraft was flying at low level and crashed shortly after takeoff on 14 November. The lost aircraft was due for induction into the PAF's third operational JF-17 squadron. This is the first known crash of the aircraft.

The incident came as China and Pakistan mounted a major sales push for the JF-17 at the Dubai air show. This is the JF-17's first major international air show since Farnborough in 2010. The aircraft missed Paris this year owing to political instability in Pakistan.

_this wili 'delay' the induction of the 3rd JF-17 squadron till they fix the 'fault'_

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## Last Hope

Great job.

Though crash isin't the topic here, 26th Squadron crew confirmed about the crash to be a bird-hit.

It happened a few minutes after take-off. A bird got sucked in the intakes. The Thunder was in the area of civilian presence, so Squadron Leader Mohammed Hussain _Shaheed_ tried his luck to divert the jet towards a nearby hill. He then informed the control tower and ejected. Due to low height and angel of ejection, the parachutes failed to open and he was found 3KM away from the crashed jet.

This was new Thunder made at Kamra for third Squadron. 

Anyways, around only 30 jets (18 of them newly induced 3 months ago) and 10,000 sorties is a huge job!

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## Last Hope




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## Windjammer

Tempest II said:


> I was looking at that but was going to hold back on gthe discussion until we get more info ... ... and also a single event is not very reliable to form a statistic.
> 
> The info online says the Gripen had done 150,000 hours in March 2011 with 6 airframes lost. That is 25,000 hours per crash.
> 
> The 10,000 hours given for the Thunder are for the inservice fleet. I.e. just the 38 or 40 planes in the PAF. That excludes the development hours in China. I would like an estimate of that. Even if we say 2,500 (I don't have a clue), they we have 12,500 hours per crash.
> 
> How does that compare with other planes? I need to find out.
> 
> Gripen had an early loss at Paris Airshow. How manys hours had it flown by then?
> 
> Thanks.



*As of May 2010, five Gripens were destroyed in crashes, two of them before the delivery to the Swedish Air Force. These aircraft included one prototype, one production aircraft and three in service with the Swedish Air Force. In addition, one aircraft was lost in a ground accident during an engine test, for a total of six hull losses. No lives have yet been lost in accidents with the Gripen. Gripens have been involved in a few aviation incidents also.*
_
It's also worth noting that unlike PAC, SAAB has decades of fighter designing and building experience with classics like Draken and Viggen under it's belt_.

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## SQ8

So tail number was it?
It must be remembered that the 08 tails do NOT have the MB-16 yet.


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## k7x

Rest in Peace Brave solder .. Have to honour the ultimate sacrifise people do for their Nation.

birds can be dangerous to gas turbines, and more for the single engined fighters like JF17, F16 , Mig 21,27 ect...


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## Windjammer

Santro said:


> So tail number was it?
> It must be remembered that the 08 tails do NOT have the MB-16 yet.



I believe it was a new airframe, working up for the third squadron.


----------



## Jango

RaptorRX707 said:


> Let's wait for the investigation matters and conclusion by official statements later. At this moment, we don't know the whole reasons. The detail report will be available within two months or so.
> 
> Parachute not working _in this state of the art JF-17_, serious?



Official events of a crash do not come into the public , more often than not. A crash is labelled due to technical failure and pilot error almost all the time, the real error is something else.

BTW, congrats to the Thunder and the development team and the pilots and most of all, the engineers striving to keep this machine airworthy.


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> I believe it was a new airframe, working up for the third squadron.



In that case, Martin Baker are about to get some customer feedback.. 
although the seat did work, so whose responsibility was the chute?

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## Windjammer

Santro said:


> In that case, Martin Baker are about to get some customer feedback..
> although the seat did work, so whose responsibility was the chute?



Correct me if i am wrong but isn't the chute part of the integrated mechanism. ??!!


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Correct me if i am wrong but isn't the chute part of the integrated mechanism. ??!!



It should be.. But the checks on it, safety pins.. etc.
Who did that?
Or who made the chute? which company?
MB does the seat only.

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## Windjammer

Santro said:


> It should be.. But the checks on it, safety pins.. etc.
> Who did that?
> Or who made the chute? which company?
> MB does the seat only.



You are the man....i was waiting/hoping for your input on the issue/incident.


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## epinephrine

Last Hope said:


> Great job.
> 
> Though crash isin't the topic here, 26th Squadron crew confirmed about the crash to be a bird-hit.
> 
> It happened a few minutes after take-off. A bird got sucked in the intakes. The Thunder was in the area of civilian presence, so Squadron Leader Mohammed Hussain _Shaheed_ tried his luck to divert the jet towards a nearby hill. He then informed the control tower and ejected. Due to low height and angel of ejection, the parachutes failed to open and he was found 3KM away from the crashed jet.
> 
> This was new Thunder made at Kamra for third Squadron.
> 
> Anyways, around only 30 jets (18 of them newly induced 3 months ago) and 10,000 sorties is a huge job!


 
26 sqn is in peshawar n the thunder that crashed was from kamra manufactured for the third sqn so the crew r not authentic sources for this accident.they would not be a part of the inquiry committee established to find out the cause of the accident.
jft has 0-0 ejection seat which means pilot should be able to eject safely at 0 altitide n 0 speed.y our pilot is not alive then?
jft took of from kamra n reached attock n still it was flying at such a low altitude that its engine sucked a bird.it is a fighter jet designed to gain altitude in seconds n not minutes.
i cant understand any of this


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## Rafi

epinephrine said:


> 26 sqn is in peshawar n the thunder that crashed was from kamra manufactured for the third sqn so the crew r not authentic sources for this accident.they would not be a part of the inquiry committee established to find out the cause of the accident.
> jft has 0-0 ejection seat which means pilot should be able to eject safely at 0 altitide n 0 speed.y our pilot is not alive then?
> jft took of from kamra n reached attock n still it was flying at such a low altitude that its engine sucked a bird.it is a fighter jet designed to gain altitude in seconds n not minutes.
> i cant understand any of this



The problem was the plane was inverted ie up side down, that is why the ejection seat could not stop terminal velocity, and it was a bird strike.


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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> *DUBAI: JF-17 crashes in Pakistan's Kamra*
> 
> By: Greg Waldron Dubai
> 
> A Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 fighter aircraft operated by the Pakistan air force has crashed shortly after taking from Kamra air base, killing the pilot, an industry source said.
> 
> The PAF confirmed that the aircraft was flying at low level and crashed shortly after takeoff on 14 November. *The lost aircraft was due for induction into the PAF's third operational JF-17 squadron*. This is the first known crash of the aircraft.
> 
> The incident came as China and Pakistan mounted a major sales push for the JF-17 at the Dubai air show. This is the JF-17's first major international air show since Farnborough in 2010. The aircraft missed Paris this year owing to political instability in Pakistan.
> 
> _this wili 'delay' the induction of the 3rd JF-17 squadron till they fix the 'fault'_



Who confirmed this? Its just a speculation. The aircraft allotment to squadrons is non random for E.g 26 Sqn has mix of first batch SBP examples, late 2009 and 2010 aircraft as well.


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## epinephrine

Rafi said:


> The problem was the plane was inverted ie up side down, that is why the ejection seat could not stop terminal velocity, and it was a bird strike.



thanx but any authentic sources??i dont think that the inquiry team would have completed their inquiry in just 2 days of the accident.all the thunders must be grounded till the team completes its investigation.its a 20 million dollar plane n we should not just put blame on a "bird" out rightly.it is the easiest way to escape by blaming a bird


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## epinephrine

the easiest answer for any air crash is "bird hit" n we have got this answer again this time.all jfts must be grounded till the time the actual reason of the crash is found out.the jet took of from kamra n reached mountainous terrain of attock n still it was such a low altitude that it sucked a bird??


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## Najam Khan

Santro said:


> So tail number was it?
> It must be remembered that the 08 tails do NOT have the MB-16 yet.


 
It was PK16LE MB. TY-6 seats of those eight SBPs were changed to MB in early 2010. Seat had done its part, its the low-altitude and possibly the ground surface where he hit that changed the fate of pilot. His position at the time of collision is also important...during pre-flight checks pilots sometime forgot to strap their helmet properly leading to a confirm head injury...


BTW Is birdhit as official release? I have just heard this on forums...i believe report isnt made yet.


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## Rafi

epinephrine said:


> thanx but any authentic sources??i dont think that the inquiry team would have completed their inquiry in just 2 days of the accident.all the thunders must be grounded till the team completes its investigation.its a 20 million dollar plane n we should not just put blame on a "bird" out rightly.it is the easiest way to escape by blaming a bird



Contacts within Armed Forces, also that is the reason why the JFT were not grounded and the display team carried on as usual, bird strikes are an unfortunate part of aviation.

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## Rafi

epinephrine said:


> the easiest answer for any air crash is "bird hit" n we have got this answer again this time.all jfts must be grounded till the time the actual reason of the crash is found out.the jet took of from kamra n reached mountainous terrain of attock n still it was such a low altitude that it sucked a bird??








It happens fella.


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## khail007

epinephrine said:


> the easiest answer for any air crash is "bird hit" n we have got this answer again this time.all jfts must be grounded till the time the actual reason of the crash is found out.the jet took of from kamra n reached mountainous terrain of attock n still it was such a low altitude that it sucked a bird??



Birds could be find flying from 10,000 feet to 29,000 feet. Especially large birds like vultures found flying at 10,000 feet. Geese found and spotted by airline pilots flying at 29,000 feet. It is amazing, I have seen the damage of birds strike on a Boeing 777-300ER it ruptured the radome, damaged the radar, skin of the aircraft also found dented and ruptured.

One of PAF base (Masroor) in karachi is also named after a pilot, who lost his life while flying a B-57 and encounter a bird hit.

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## DANGER-ZONE

NAjAM Khan said:


> Who confirmed this? Its just a speculation. The aircraft allotment to squadrons is non random for E.g 26 Sqn has mix of first batch SBP examples, late 2009 and 2010 aircraft as well.


08-107 was in 26 Sqd. right !


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## razgriz19

judging by the crash site, the aircraft was upside down and thats probably the reason why pilot's parachute didn't deploy properly... he probably ejected when the aircraft was inverted and the rocket boosters slammed him on the ground..

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## Edevelop

razgriz19 said:


> judging by the crash site, the aircraft was upside down and thats probably the reason why pilot's parachute didn't deploy properly... he probably ejected when the aircraft was inverted and the rocket boosters slammed him on the ground..



Thats great thinking and observation. Lets hope it was a bird strike that caused the crash and not a tech problem or else the project in the end would be criticized by some people.


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## Jango

There were reports of an engine fire, so most probably, the bird entered the engine.

As Safriz said, the aircraft was probably upside down, hence the parachute could not properly deploy.


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## rockstarIN

nuclearpak said:


> There were reports of an engine fire, so most probably, the bird entered the engine.
> 
> As Safriz said, the aircraft was probably upside down, hence the parachute could not properly deploy.



JFT inlets are not open as other jets, less chance for bird hitting the engines


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## mjnaushad

rockstar said:


> JFT inlets are not open as other jets, less chance for bird hitting the engines



They are not open but doesn't mean there is no way in at all.....DSI have a little bump by which the RCS is reduced .... Its not that they have put some hard metal in front of it to stop anything to come in...


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## rockstarIN

mjnaushad said:


> They are not open but doesn't mean there is no way in at all.....DSI have a little bump by which the RCS is reduced .... Its not that they have put some hard metal in front of it to stop anything to come in...



I said the chances are less compared to other fighters.

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## regular

Yes! birds can be found at any height ranging to 30,000fts...the pilots needs to be very careful and ready for their protection all the time...

---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------




cb4 said:


> Thats great thinking and observation. Lets hope it was a bird strike that caused the crash and not a tech problem or else the project in the end would be criticized by some people.


There is no question of tech problem. If it was then we wouldn't have seen Thunderz performing so well in the airshows and defending our skies so skillfully....


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## regular

rockstar said:


> JFT inlets are not open as other jets, less chance for bird hitting the engines


Yes! we can also think about the act of terrorism on our aircraft. maybe somebody/terrorist shot it down if it was flying low by any gun or lasers etc...cuz we got so many terrorists entered within our country from outside......I guess we shold consider that too. Cuz our Army is at war with these evil pplz...Sometimes ago somebody tried to use lasers on our PIA airliners too....


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## DANGER-ZONE

rockstar said:


> JFT inlets are not open as other jets, less chance for bird hitting the engines



Do u have a blower at ur home? Try a simple test, pick a small thing or make a small ball of scrap paper. now turn it on, release/drop the ball from a height that it crosses the blower inlet closely and see the magic. 
Then see this video 





Now think rationally, not in trolling way. The man sucked into a A-6 intake which is powered by a turbojet not turbofan engine. He was Aprox 70-80 kg guy that sucked in just because he let his head near to intake and you are arguing on a bird. 
JF-17 inlets are wide enough to house a person easily at one side. I have seen US Navy ground crew sliding into the intake of F/A-18 to clear it before flight, have u ever seen F-18s old intake. I prefer you to see them again. Jf-17 intakes are just a lil small in size then F-18 intake. 
Now for the bird, if any bird come in the direction of aircraft, no matter it is flying a few meters away, it will be sucked into the jet just like the paper ball that will be sucked up into your blower after the fall. Even a small sparrow can destroy a jet engine to some extent. 
We have seen wire gauze like structure in Mig-35 intake to avoid such things but Jf-17 does not house anything like that. 
Still it is not confirmed that the bird-hit was the cause of crash but the rate of probability is high.

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## SQ8

NAjAM Khan said:


> BTW Is birdhit as official release? I have just heard this on forums...i believe report isnt made yet.



Suspected.. thats all you get from most in the profession.
Till they cart off the wreckage to a place for a through examination(look for signs of a strike).
And possibly recover the recorder from the seat.. cant be sure.


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## hatf IX

Santro said:


> Suspected.. thats all you get from most in the profession.
> Till they cart off the wreckage to a place for a through examination(look for signs of a strike).
> And possibly recover the recorder from the seat.. cant be sure.



if its a bird strike than 

plan did not went down in a second . . . .

there should have to be some kind of communication between controller and the pilot
and there should not be any kind of ambiguity to that . . .

i suspect its some thing else . . .


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## SQ8

hatf IX said:


> if its a bird strike than
> 
> plan did not went down in a second . . . .
> 
> there should have to be some kind of communication between controller and the pilot
> and there should not be any kind of ambiguity to that . . .
> 
> i suspect its some thing else . . .



At low alt, which is what is being suspected. a bird getting sucked into the engine can be lethal.
The pilot was flying over a civilian area, so he gains a little altitude and gets the best range out of that situation to get the stricken aircraft out of potential collateral damage. He is communicating.. so the ATC's log would be handy in the investigation. 
A few seconds after the mishap.. the aircraft has become uncontrollable and is about to hit the ground, the pilot ejects at what is fairly low alt.. but the seat get him out of the situation. However his chute does not deploy and he does not survive.
The jet goes on at its speed for a mile or two and crashes inverted.

The only possible explanation for this is a catastrophic engine failure that made the aircraft unflyable.
Or the computer systems on board suffered massive failure and then the hydraulics too failed
This is VERY VERY unlikely.
The only thing that makes sense is an outside variable caused the failure.

Anyway, the investigation is probably ongoing and the results will come in. They'll probably be released to AFM.. so you'll find out then.

Until that report comes in, to all and sundry.. the JF is still an extremely reliable piece of equipment that has not suffered a single failure(even a minor one) until this incident.
That speaks volumes.


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## ice_man

well many questions will be asked about the FBW along with the engine RD-93!!! the pilot Mohammed Hussain was the man represnting JF-17s in farnborourgh airshow!! 

Hussain UK | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Jango

rockstar said:


> JFT inlets are not open as other jets, less chance for bird hitting the engines



a bird can easily enter a JFT inlet.


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## Last Hope

hatf IX said:


> if its a bird strike than
> 
> plan did not went down in a second . . . .
> 
> there should have to be some kind of communication between controller and the pilot
> and there should not be any kind of ambiguity to that . . .
> 
> i suspect its some thing else . . .



According to my sources, Sqn Ldr Hussain informed the ATC about bird strike and as soon as telling about failure to manage controls, he ejected. 


Santro said:


> *At low alt, which is what is being suspected. a bird getting sucked into the engine can be lethal.
> The pilot was flying over a civilian area, so he gains a little altitude and gets the best range out of that situation to get the stricken aircraft out of potential collateral damage. He is communicating.. so the ATC's log would be handy in the investigation.
> A few seconds after the mishap.. the aircraft has become uncontrollable and is about to hit the ground, the pilot ejects at what is fairly low alt.. but the seat get him out of the situation. However his chute does not deploy and he does not survive.
> The jet goes on at its speed for a mile or two and crashes inverted.
> *
> The only possible explanation for this is a catastrophic engine failure that made the aircraft unflyable.
> Or the computer systems on board suffered massive failure and then the hydraulics too failed
> This is VERY VERY unlikely.
> The only thing that makes sense is an outside variable caused the failure.
> 
> Anyway, the investigation is probably ongoing and the results will come in. They'll probably be released to AFM.. so you'll find out then.
> 
> Until that report comes in, to all and sundry.. the JF is still an extremely reliable piece of equipment that has not suffered a single failure(even a minor one) until this incident.
> That speaks volumes.



True that. The only possible ways for chutes not getting deployed are:
*
1) The altitude and angel of ejection was low. This means their wasn't enough air pressure against the pilot acting against gravity which would force the chutes to get deployed.

2) Some neglection by airmen. *

Though the second has chances of possibility of below 10%, the angel and attitude of ejection is safe to blame.


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## SQ8

Last Hope said:


> According to my sources, Sqn Ldr Hussain informed the ATC about bird strike and as soon as telling about failure to manage controls, he ejected.
> 
> 
> True that. The only possible ways for chutes not getting deployed are:
> *
> 1) The altitude and angel of ejection was low. This means their wasn't enough air pressure against the pilot acting against gravity which would force the chutes to get deployed.
> 
> 2) Some neglection by airmen. *
> 
> Though the second has chances of possibility of below 10%, the angel and attitude of ejection is safe to blame.



The PK16 is a variant of the seat on the F-35.. it is designed for escape from zero-zero situations.. at most angles and G loads.
However, it is possible that the aircraft was ALREADY inverted before the ejection.. and that after trying to point the jet away from collateral damage he wasted too much altitude for a safe ejection.


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## VCheng

I would urge all to resist speculation and wait for the official accident report.

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## unicorn

Santro said:


> The PK16 is a variant of the seat on the F-35.. it is designed for escape from zero-zero situations.. at most angles and G loads.
> However, it is possible that the aircraft was ALREADY inverted before the ejection.. and that after trying to point the jet away from collateral damage he wasted too much altitude for a safe ejection.



The body was found two kilometers away from the crash site.Also keep in mind that the plane crashed on the mountain and not on the ground. How can one believe that the height would not be adequate enough to eject from the plane.


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## regular

the question is still there. Howcome the aircraft was in inverted position over the civil area and at low altitude???
when he tried to do ejection. Our pilot didn't know that the parachute won't open while jumping out from inverted aircraft??? our pilot can't be so dumb....


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## MastanKhan

regular said:


> the question is still there. Howcome the aircraft was in inverted position over the civil area and at low altitude???
> when he tried to do ejection. Our pilot didn't know that the parachute won't open while jumping out from inverted aircraft??? our pilot can't be so dumb....



Sir,

This is being silly, ----he took the plane away from the populated area and took his only chance that he had---to eject from the inverted plane---he knew he was a goner but at least he tried---maybe by a freak chance he could survive----. You know miracles do happen---this time it didnot----so must he be blamed----. I would----that he would have rather bailed out earlier when he had the oppurtunity---bu then these pilots---you can't tell them what to do under these circumstances---.

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## baqai

a noob question, do these ejection seats have some sort of detection for inverted ejection so that parachute only deploys once the seats is in upright position? if that is the scenario than maybe combination of being inverted and low it didn't had time to deploy and actually slammed the pilot on the ground? i am extremely sorry if i am going to piss off people by saying this but just thinking aloud without having any knowledge on the subject.


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## krash

baqai said:


> a noob question, do these ejection seats have some sort of detection for inverted ejection so that parachute only deploys once the seats is in upright position? if that is the scenario than maybe combination of being inverted and low it didn't had time to deploy and actually slammed the pilot on the ground? i am extremely sorry if i am going to piss off people by saying this but just thinking aloud without having any knowledge on the subject.



Ejecting upside down from high altitude is not a problem. Modern seats are gyro stabilized (e.g. ACES II) which means that they are made so as to stabilize in an upright position as soon as they leave the aircraft. Furthermore the Zvezda K-93 ejection seat is at least one example which allows you to eject while inverted and survive at altitudes as low as 150 feet. These seats are gyro stabilized which makes them rotate to the proper side up as soon as they leave the cockpit. Then rockets deploy the parachute. 

Check the following video. The pilot ejects at a very low altitude at around 34 sec.

Air Show Crash MIG 29 - YouTube

ps: And dude stop being apologetic ask whatever you want.

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## MastanKhan

Krash,

Thank you---that is what I thought---.

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## ANG

Hi, the JF-17 ejection seat is one of the best out there, made by Martin Baker. In a previous issue of Air Forces Monthly, there was a special on the JF-17. In it was a section on the ejection seat. It mentioned the PAF had specifically selected the Martin Baker PK16LE carbon/fiber alloy seat for the JF-17. In addition, the PAF had retrofitted their initial small batch production JF-17 Chinese TY-6 ejection seats with these ones. 

A quote from Air Forces Monthly July 2011 Issue, page # 66:

_"When the carbon/fibre alloy Martin Baker PK16LE ejection seat was selected for the JF-17, the PAF requested that there be some upgrades -- covering four main areas: passive leg restraints, the back rest extended by three inches with more cushions to increase comfort levels, a rearward firing headbox and drogue as well as an electronic sequencer.

From early 2008 until 2010, Martin Baker set about introducing these changes to the standard MK16 ejection seat to enhance its performance to provide the PAF with one of the most advanced ejection seats available. Several full ejections were performed across the speed range from zero to 600 knots to qualify the changes to the seat and verify its improved performance."_

The Martin Baker PK16LE ejection seat in the JF-17 is a zero-zero seat, meaning the pilot can eject while the plane is stationary and on the ground. However, there are limits to when a pilot can eject, given the speed of the plane. 

Lastly, in regards to the plane being inverted at the crash site, that does not automatically mean the pilot ejected in an inverted position. The plane was reportedly on fire, and could have been spinning and landed on its back. We do not have much information on that, and only a PAF inquiry board can determine the causes of the parachute not opening.

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## regular

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> This is being silly, ----he took the plane away from the populated area and took his only chance that he had---to eject from the inverted plane---he knew he was a goner but at least he tried---maybe by a freak chance he could survive----. You know miracles do happen---this time it didnot----so must he be blamed----. I would----that he would have rather bailed out earlier when he had the oppurtunity---bu then these pilots---you can't tell them what to do under these circumstances---.


You are very true within ure assessment but I'm still thinking that why the pilot didn't get chance to change the plane from inverted to upright position while he was taking the plane away from the civilian area...was the plane damaged so much that he couldn't do it?...and why his seat is not gyrostabilized atlow altitudes? as Krash depicted within his video post that the ejection seats are mostly Gyrostabilized.Shall we still term this incident as a badluck for the pilot and us ?....


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## SBD-3

Word from H Khan 


> I've just heard that the crashed JF-17 was a brand new aircraft and was on its maiden flight. There was another JF-17 aircraft which was deputized as a chase aircraft. Apparently, there was an engine surge, the pilot of the ill fated JF-17 tried to restart the engine but since the aircraft was flying low and at a low speed he didn't have much time to complete the procedure
> 
> He ejected while the aircraft was at almost 90 degree right bank. He ejected but the ejection seat struck the ridge or side of the hill while the pilot was still strapped in the seat.

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## fatman17

the a/c, engine and the ejection seat are all man-made and prone to mechanical failure. these type of fatal accidents will unfortunately take place. the lesson learnt is to make the 'line-checks" more stringent - zero tolerence.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

have ZERO doubts about it, PAF has always put HUGEEE emphasis on flight safety. 

there are always room for improvement, so yes - surely there will be lessons learned

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## Mughal-Prince

hasnain0099 said:


> Word from H Khan
> 
> I've just heard that the crashed JF-17 was a brand new aircraft and was on its maiden flight. There was another JF-17 aircraft which was deputized as a chase aircraft. Apparently, there was an engine surge, the pilot of the ill fated JF-17 tried to restart the engine but since the aircraft was flying low and at a low speed he didn't have much time to complete the procedure
> 
> He ejected while the aircraft was at almost 90 degree right bank. He ejected but the ejection seat struck the ridge or side of the hill while the pilot was still strapped in the seat.









I think that's what he means ... but in this image we can see that clearly a pilot is bailed out all clear even the air craft is above 90 degree right bank nose down and with this image it seems that it has been taken from ground so pilot has far less time to bail out I may be wrong about image taken but I am positively right about all clear bail out in this position ... secondly I think due to the hilly area as we can observe in JFT crash image it seems so random due to which we just cant speculate the clearance hight of the aircraft from surface when pilot has initiated ejection and when he got ejected even if it took a few seconds no one can say what was the surface clearance distance it may be random timely ...


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## Windjammer

Albeit, the aircraft crashed in an inverted state, however, why does everyone assume that the pilot may have also ejected in this position. Once the pilot leaves the aircraft or if the controls aren't functioning, the plane can spin out of control and crash at any angle or position.

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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> Albeit, the aircraft crashed in an inverted state, however, why does everyone assume that the pilot may have also ejected in this position. Once the pilot leaves the aircraft or if the controls aren't functioning, the plane can spin out of control and crash at any angle or position.



you are correct however that assumption was just made because of the parachute not deploying properly...

there was a f-14 incident long time ago, both pilot and RIO tried to bail out however RIO got out safely but the pilot was thrusted towards the water causing death.

and since we know that this aircraft was also flying at low altitude "heard by some senior officer on the news" i just assumed that it MAY be the case. 

we just have to wait for the official words


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## Last Hope

hasnain0099 said:


> Word from H Khan
> 
> I've just heard that the *crashed JF-17 was a brand new aircraft and was on its maiden flight.* There was another JF-17 aircraft which was deputized as a chase aircraft. Apparently, there was an engine surge, the pilot of the ill fated JF-17 tried to restart the engine but since the aircraft was flying low and at a low speed he didn't have much time to complete the procedure
> *
> He ejected while the aircraft was at almost 90 degree right bank. He ejected but the ejection seat struck the ridge or side of the hill while the pilot was still strapped in the seat.*



That was EXACTLY what I said as soon as I heard of the crash. With my years of experience and knowledge it was easy to spot out.

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## Najam Khan

danger-zone said:


> 08-107 was in 26 Sqd. right !


 
Yes its in 26 sqn...and it wasnt the aircraft involved. Its sad to debate this unfortunate incident.


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## Cool_Soldier

It was sad incident indeed and at very wrong time too.
May Allah bless shaheed's soul-aameen.


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## Najam Khan

hasnain0099 said:


> Word from H Khan
> 
> *I've just heard that the crashed JF-17 was a brand new aircraft and was on its maiden flight. There was another JF-17 aircraft which was deputized as a chase aircraft.* Apparently, there was an engine surge, the pilot of the ill fated JF-17 tried to restart the engine but since the aircraft was flying low and at a low speed he didn't have much time to complete the procedure
> 
> He ejected while the aircraft was at almost 90 degree right bank. He ejected but the ejection seat struck the ridge or side of the hill while the pilot was still strapped in the seat.


 
First it wasnt a brand new aircraft, neither was its maiden flight, this is totally false. Secondly why would a chase fighter aircraft to be deputed at the crash? Its job of base flt safety not fighter to conduct such mission. 

At most of the times during active routine flying at PAF bases,a SAR squadron's helicopter (generally Allouette) constantly keep on flying near the base. Whenever any such incident happens an already in flight SAR team is vectored to conduct search mission from last known position.

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## zavis2003

Can anyone give the answer to the question that was it JF17 or F7?

Which aircraft it was?

Just in single word please!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

JF-17 Thunder


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## Irfan Baloch

just wanted to share some throughts about the news and comments about this incident that are being shared elsewhere in the web

some of our eastern neighbours are gracing the you-tube videos on JF-17 with their colourful comments
looks like they want to vent off all their frustration while the news is hot. I am not sure why I am not getting angry maybe because they have had their own more than the fair share of crashes or they are just desperate.

I don&#8217;t blame them but pity their pathetic thinking its almost laughable that how much the mere thought of this plane has become a thorn in their backside seems like they were holding their breath and waiting for any mishap.

Hopefully the cause of crash is found out and if its due to some design fault then it&#8217;s a chance to rectify that, well nothing can be done for the plane in case of the pilot error or flameout due to the bird strike only more training and prevention can avoid such mishap.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

if i'm not mistaken, 2 of their flagship flankers bit the dust (forget the migs!).....so clearly yes, it is just frustration getting the best of them. . . 

if unemployment and lack of productive things to do in life wasn't enough of a folly for them


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## Secret Service

zavis2003 said:


> Can anyone give the answer to the question that was it JF17 or F7?
> 
> Which aircraft it was?
> 
> Just in single word please!



it was JF 17 thunder.


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## Donatello

Irfan Baloch said:


> just wanted to share some throughts about the news and comments about this incident that are being shared elsewhere in the web
> 
> some of our eastern neighbours are gracing the you-tube videos on JF-17 with their colourful comments
> looks like they want to vent off all their frustration while the news is hot. I am not sure why I am not getting angry maybe because they have had their own more than the fair share of crashes or they are just desperate.
> 
> I don&#8217;t blame them but pity their pathetic thinking its almost laughable that how much the mere thought of this plane has become a thorn in their backside seems like they were holding their breath and waiting for any mishap.
> 
> Hopefully the cause of crash is found out and if its due to some design fault then it&#8217;s a chance to rectify that, well nothing can be done for the plane in case of the pilot error or flameout due to the bird strike only more training and prevention can avoid such mishap.




Sir jee,

When JF-17 starts to fly with Air Forces around the world, our eastern neighbors will surely melt like an Ice Cream.

They are certainly not worth our attention.


----------



## regular

Irfan Baloch said:


> just wanted to share some throughts about the news and comments about this incident that are being shared elsewhere in the web
> 
> some of our eastern neighbours are gracing the you-tube videos on JF-17 with their colourful comments
> looks like they want to vent off all their frustration while the news is hot. I am not sure why I am not getting angry maybe because they have had their own more than the fair share of crashes or they are just desperate.
> 
> I don&#8217;t blame them but pity their pathetic thinking its almost laughable that how much the mere thought of this plane has become a thorn in their backside seems like they were holding their breath and waiting for any mishap.
> 
> Hopefully the cause of crash is found out and if its due to some design fault then it&#8217;s a chance to rectify that, well nothing can be done for the plane in case of the pilot error or flameout due to the bird strike only more training and prevention can avoid such mishap.


Sir! I guess there is no design fault within the aircraft. If there has been any design fault then we wouldn't have seen our Thunderz flying so successfully within the airshows and also guarding our skies for the last four years....


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## JayAtl

Irfan Baloch said:


> just wanted to share some throughts about the news and comments about this incident that are being shared elsewhere in the web
> 
> some of our eastern neighbours are gracing the you-tube videos on JF-17 with their colourful comments
> looks like they want to vent off all their frustration while the news is hot. I am not sure why I am not getting angry maybe because they have had their own more than the fair share of crashes or they are just desperate.
> 
> I dont blame them but pity their pathetic thinking its almost laughable that how much the mere thought of this plane has become a thorn in their backside seems like they were holding their breath and waiting for any mishap.
> 
> Hopefully the cause of crash is found out and if its due to some design fault then its a chance to rectify that, well nothing can be done for the plane in case of the pilot error or flameout due to the bird strike only more training and prevention can avoid such mishap.



Irfan- I totally get you. Making fun of such crashes is very shallow if it means they are rejoicing over the act of " a crash taking place or the death of a pilot"- I agree 1000%. Both sides do this and it's shameful. 

But I would not go as far as calling this aircraft of any concern or thorn 'yet', because the general feeling of the "eastern neighbours", as you put it, is that the aircraft is low quality chinese stuff from what I gather( from the comments). They really don't have any respect for this aircraft because so much about it is unknown and one never hears about any issues with their aircrafts, as one does from western media on western projects. Makes sense?

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## SQ8

The pilot was the cream of his course, and is much missed by his colleagues and the AF.


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## Dazzler

I request everyone to please stop conspiring. Sadly enough, Incidents do and are bound to happen. It was a low level flight in a mountainous area which is very dangerous. No issues were found with engine, seat or anything. Just move on now and pray for the brave son of our soil.

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## Areesh

JayAtl said:


> But I would not go as far as calling this aircraft of any concern or thorn 'yet', because the general feeling of the "eastern neighbours", as you put it, *is that the aircraft is low quality chinese stuff from what I gather( from the comments)*. They really don't have any respect for this aircraft because so much about it is unknown and one never hears about any issues with their aircrafts, as one does from western media on western projects. Makes sense?


 
Bold part. Yeah that is the reason that they are BSing about this crash. The same rant about "low quality Chinese stuff". But who is commenting about these so called low quality products. Indians. The ones who are trying to make *asli pari maar ka* LCA for last thirty years or so. Pathetic isn't it?

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## SQ8

The inquiry will reveal what has happened, random theories can be passed but let me assure you that most of them are very much off the mark.
It was a low level mission, risks were involved. What went wrong is not known yet.
It is best to pay our respects to the pilot, who was a gem of an officer and well respected in the PAF.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Windjammer said:


> Albeit, the aircraft crashed in an inverted state, however, why does everyone assume that the pilot may have also ejected in this position. Once the pilot leaves the aircraft or if the controls aren't functioning, the plane can spin out of control and crash at any angle or position.



a pilot would have to be extremely dumb and brain-dead to eject inverted.....especially at low alt.

though i do agree that the aircraft crashed in an inverted position, based on pictures i've seen which i assume are non-adulterated ones.

since the chute didnt properly deploy either his alt. was too low and the sinking effect applied; or the chute was defective.....


(or both!)


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## Donatello

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *a pilot would have to be extremely dumb and brain-dead to eject inverted.....especially at low alt.
> *
> though i do agree that the aircraft crashed in an inverted position, based on pictures i've seen which i assume are non-adulterated ones.
> 
> since the chute didnt properly deploy either his alt. was too low and the sinking effect applied; or the chute was defective.....
> 
> 
> (or both!)




Sir jee,

what do you suggest then? He should have stayed inside and crashed with the plane? 

I mean he probably didn't have a flurry of choices to pick from, he had one chance and he took.....little would he know that the chute won't deploy (or won't deploy in time for him to slow down)


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## Irfan Baloch

JayAtl said:


> Irfan- I totally get you. Making fun of such crashes is very shallow if it means they are rejoicing over the act of " a crash taking place or the death of a pilot"- I agree 1000%. Both sides do this and it's shameful.
> 
> But I would not go as far as calling this aircraft of any concern or thorn 'yet', because the general feeling of the "eastern neighbours", as you put it, is that the aircraft is low quality chinese stuff from what I gather( from the comments). They really don't have any respect for this aircraft because so much about it is unknown and one never hears about any issues with their aircrafts, as one does from western media on western projects. Makes sense?



thorne was only meant for those who give it too much importance (notice the word "some") although its our attempt for a cheaper option to replace our aging aircrafts and provide F-16s with a forece multiplier option.
yes I agree I dont celebrate aircrashes full stop, be it any country. its not war time anyway
qustioning the quality of chinese stuff and Russian engine is a valid argument , Japan and Korean goods have had the similar reaction and now the perception is totally different.

people on the web can be very ruthless and I have seen comments and read news about some shocking comments where web pages setup to mourn the family tragedy have been targetted by trolls.


back to story, I am not clear if the lane was already flyng low or the sudden loss of power/ flame out etc resulte din loss of altitude and control meaning the plane crashed into the mountains.

does PAF record the coversation or do these jets come with their own version of "black boxex" like the commericial planes? I wonder what was the conversation betweent he control tower and the pilot.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

penumbra said:


> Sir jee,
> 
> what do you suggest then? He should have stayed inside and crashed with the plane?
> 
> I mean he probably didn't have a flurry of choices to pick from, he had one chance and he took.....little would he know that the chute won't deploy (or won't deploy in time for him to slow down)



we dont even know whether it was inverted or not when he ejected.....

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## Last Hope

hasnain0099 said:


> Word from H Khan
> 
> I've just heard that the crashed JF-17 was a brand new aircraft and was on its maiden flight. There was another JF-17 aircraft which was deputized as a chase aircraft. Apparently, there was an engine surge, the pilot of the ill fated JF-17 tried to restart the engine but since the aircraft was flying low and at a low speed he didn't have much time to complete the procedure
> *
> He ejected while the aircraft was at almost 90 degree right bank. He ejected but the ejection seat struck the ridge or side of the hill while the pilot was still strapped in the seat.*






Here. This gives more strength to the last part.
I still go for what I said earlier. 


Abu Zolfiqar said:


> we dont even know whether it was inverted or not when he ejected.....


Sir jee. It was inverted. The picture of the crashed jet shows the landing gear above.
Unless you tellme that fighter jets are like cars, which can turn upside down after high speed crashes, I am firm in saying it were a upside down crash.


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## ANG

Hi, I honestly think this whole JF-17 crash thing is being blown out of proportion. To put it plain and simple, crashes happen, that is part of flying. The JF-17 first flew way back in 2003, having a single crash after all the developement, current flight testing, and operating 2 squadrons is not bad at all.

For example, an Aermacchi M-346 Prototype just crashed, does that imply the plane is bad? No, not at all.

Aermacchi M-346 Prototype Crashes After Leaving Dubai: key.Aero, Military Aviation

Moreover, I am a statistician by trade and have worked on quality control stuff. Trust me nothing is 100% fool proof, and the reliability of any system is gauged over the long run, with a small number of accidents/crashes expected to occur.

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## SQ8

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> a pilot would have to be extremely dumb and brain-dead to eject inverted.....especially at low alt.
> 
> though i do agree that the aircraft crashed in an inverted position, based on pictures i've seen which i assume are non-adulterated ones.
> 
> since the *chute didnt properly* deploy either his alt. was too low and the sinking effect applied; or the chute was defective.....
> 
> 
> (or both!)



This story is rubbish, there is nothing to substantiate it janab. Till the inquiry comes out, one cannot be sure.


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## DANGER-ZONE

^ which will never be out any day


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## krash

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> a pilot would have to be extremely dumb and brain-dead to eject inverted.....especially at low alt.
> 
> though i do agree that the aircraft crashed in an inverted position, based on pictures i've seen which i assume are non-adulterated ones.
> 
> since the chute didnt properly deploy either his alt. was too low and the sinking effect applied; or the chute was defective.....
> 
> 
> (or both!)



Sir:



krash said:


> Ejecting upside down from high altitude is not a problem. Modern seats are gyro stabilized (e.g. ACES II) which means that they are made so as to stabilize in an upright position as soon as they leave the aircraft. Furthermore the Zvezda K-93 ejection seat is at least one example which allows you to eject while inverted and survive at altitudes as low as 150 feet. These seats are gyro stabilized which makes them rotate to the proper side up as soon as they leave the cockpit. Then rockets deploy the parachute.
> 
> Check the following video. The pilot ejects at a very low altitude at around 34 sec.
> 
> Air Show Crash MIG 29 - YouTube
> 
> ps: And dude stop being apologetic ask whatever you want.




Second these seats are 0:0 ejection seats which basically allow you to eject safely at 0 altitude and/or at 0 speed. So low altitude should not be a problem.



Last Hope said:


> *Sir jee. It was inverted. The picture of the crashed jet shows the landing gear above.
> Unless you tellme that fighter jets are like cars, which can turn upside down after high speed crashes, I am firm in saying it were a upside down crash.*



The aircraft could have easily inverted after ejection. I mean its a no brainer. Second the aircraft could have been in a barrel role even before the pilot ejected.


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## regular

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> a pilot would have to be extremely dumb and brain-dead to eject inverted.....especially at low alt.
> 
> though i do agree that the aircraft crashed in an inverted position, based on pictures i've seen which i assume are non-adulterated ones.
> 
> since the chute didnt properly deploy either his alt. was too low and the sinking effect applied; or the chute was defective.....
> (or both!)


I guess the bold part is true the Parachute was defective otherwise the pilot would have survived.....Ure assumptions are exactly what I 've been saying from the beginning. Cuz these parachutes are designed to work in inverted or upright position....the Europeans have a very good standard of the safety but unluckily this parachute had some defect so failed to save the precious life of our pilot....


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## Patriot

Irfan Baloch said:


> just wanted to share some throughts about the news and comments about this incident that are being shared elsewhere in the web
> 
> some of our eastern neighbours are gracing the you-tube videos on JF-17 with their colourful comments
> looks like they want to vent off all their frustration while the news is hot.


Sir Nothing to be angry about - What goes around comes around - After all its our infamous eastern neighbor whose air force managed to crash 1000 air crafts in just few decades so rest assured you would get your chance to pay them back in the same coin soon but i guess we are quite different from Indians.


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## Irfan Baloch

Patriot said:


> Sir Nothing to be angry about - What goes around comes around - After all its our infamous eastern neighbor whose air force managed to crash 1000 air crafts in just few decades so rest assured *you would get your chance to pay them back in the same coin soon* but i guess we are quite different from Indians.



this is not my idea I will never do such a thing. like Santro is saying. there is no point in speculating. 
a plane crashed and a pilot is dead. may his soul rest in peace.


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## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


> this is not my idea I will never do such a thing. like Santro is saying. there is no point in speculating.
> a plane crashed and a pilot is dead. may his soul rest in peace.



Military air crashes is quite a regular occurrence around the globe and people do lose life in these accidents, although I must admit this one did hurt. As for some despicable neighbours, one can easily rattle some skeletons in their cupboard like  they need to be reminded of their last Mig-29 crash...it's been a over a month and no trace of the pilot's body, not to mention one of their chief test pilot committing suicide after having to live with the major blunder he caused with the AJT.


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## notorious_eagle

A picture of the crash site:


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## razgriz19

*GUYZ MY MOTHER JUST TOLD ME THAT THE PILOT OF THUNDER WAS OUR FAMILY FRIEND'S CLOSE RELATIVE!!!
LIKE "PHUPPI ZAAD BHAI!"*

well she is more like my mom's friend, they used to work together in Pakistan before both moved to canada. she talked to my mother today on the phone and told her that one of her close relative martyred in a PAF plane crash a couple of days ago.... 

he was a very decorated pilot!

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## Cool_Soldier

Feeling your grief and Shaheed's family grief.May Allah bless them with patience-Aameen!


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## umair86pk

Many factors can attribute to an air crash it might have been a bird ingestion into the engine that it flamed out.


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## air marshal

*Dedicated to Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain shaheed!!!*

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## abdulbarijan

Here is some interesting site I found..i think its not been posted before check it out the crash history of PAF..
Pakistan


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## Jango

A-5's and F-6/F-7 make quite the list!


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## hatf IX

When the report of crash will be published . . . . . .. . mean official report . . .. thanks in advance


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## Jango

hatf IX said:


> When the report of crash will be published . . . . . .. . mean official report . . .. thanks in advance



They don't get published in public. It is an internal inquiry, and it does not go out of PAF. The most that will be brought to the public will be 'crash was because of technical faults/bird strike'.

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## Cool_Soldier

ARY news chanell reported.
PAF cesna plane crashed in Karachi near Malir JInnah Squaire.Still reports are coming.


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## Windjammer




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## alibaz

Cool_Soldier said:


> ARY news chanell reported.
> PAF cesna plane crashed in Karachi near Malir JInnah Squaire.Still reports are coming.



It's not PAF plane. Schon air can be read easily


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## Imran Khan

schon air is in deep trouble man its second crash landing


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## Last Hope

hatf IX said:


> When the report of crash will be published . . . . . .. . mean official report . . .. thanks in advance



Report is made. It isin't being leaked. What I said earlier from scratch is having strong chances to be the actual scene, and what Eagle Hannan said is quite same.


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## hatf IX

Last Hope said:


> Report is made. It isin't being leaked. What I said earlier from scratch is having strong chances to be the actual scene, and what Eagle Hannan said is quite same.



what are the views of eagle Hannah about it


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## VCheng

abdulbarijan said:


> Here is some interesting site I found..i think its not been posted before check it out the crash history of PAF..
> Pakistan



That list is incomplete, with the period December 1971 to October 1976 missing at least two entries.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Windjammer said:


> not to mention one of their chief test pilot committing suicide after having to live with the major blunder he caused with the AJT.


Ignorant fool
He was the HAL director and took this extreme step due to reasons other than his work duties.
If you do not know about certain things then please do not comment about those.

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## Windjammer

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Ignorant fool
> He was the HAL director and took this extreme step due to reasons other than his work duties.
> If you do not know about certain things then please do not comment about those.



Living in oblivion, are you....here enlighten your self.

Livefist: The Needless IJT Incident of February 8


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## satishkumarcsc

Windjammer said:


> Living in oblivion, are you....here enlighten your self.
> 
> Livefist: The Needless IJT Incident of February 8



He was promoted recently as the HAL Director after serving as a Test pilot and the Cheif test pilot for the IJT program. He committed suicide because of family problems.

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## Jango

reports of a crash at PAF masroor, the pilot dead.


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## Jango

A mirage from number 7 sqn was involved in a premature ejection. Pilots name SL SHABIR SHAHEED. The seat ejected while performing ground checks under the shed and the pilot ramped up into the roof.

A tragic and unfortunate accident. MAy the departed soul rest is peace. I donot wish to spaculate on the circumstances, yet there are various procedures and precautions to avoid inadvertent firing of ejection seat on ground.

A fighter pilot is in fact sitting on top of a powerful rocket which though is a life saver can be lethal in case of an accident. A few weeks back a RAF pilot was killed when the ejection seat, of a BAe Hawk aircraft of Red Arrows display team fired inadvertently while the aircraft was about to taxi from the tarmac.


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## mike bennett

VCheng said:


> That list is incomplete, with the period December 1971 to October 1976 missing at least two entries.



Dear VCheng,
Thanks for the heads up on missing losses.
Can you help me complete the list?
I'll add the missing ones once I have the details
Best regards
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk


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## CallsignAlzaeem

Sq. Ldr. Shabbir Ishtiaq Shaheed with Wing Commander Asim Paracha Shaheed.

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## fatman17

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> Sq. Ldr. Shabbir Ishtiaq Shaheed with Wing Commander Asim Paracha Shaheed.



where r they sitting - in a transport a/c?


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## Rain

I just randomly came accross a site claiming that JF 17 thunder crashed in Attok, blogger did not mentioned a date yet he posted Pics of crash site.
Here they are

Crash Site Images Confirming JF-17 Thunder Crash

11:46 AM Qamar No comments 


These images are from the site where fighter jet of the Pakistan air force crashed earlier today. These images clearly confirm that crashed aircraft was indeed JF-17 Thunder.






A JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force crashed in Punjab while it was returning to the PAF Minhas Airbase.


PAF's JF-17 Fighter Jet Crashed Near Hazro, Attock


Read more: Crash Site Images Confirming JF-17 Thunder Crash ~ Pakistan Military Review

comments needed to confirm or deny the crash jet is indeed JF 17!


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## Roybot

Jf-17 crashed few days ago. Go back a few pages you ll find info.


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## VCheng

mike bennett said:


> Dear VCheng,
> Thanks for the heads up on missing losses.
> Can you help me complete the list?
> I'll add the missing ones once I have the details
> Best regards
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk



Mike:

These two:

Sqdn Ldr Hassan Akhtar, 9 August 1974, F-6 crash a few miles outside Sargodha AFB, ?flameout at high AoA.

Sqdn Ldr. Hasnat, first week of September 1976(?), F-6 crash at Sargodha AFB, during acrobatics.

I was fairly young at that time but thses should be enough details to get more information.

VCheng.


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## s_shahnawaz

Thank you for sharing this! Just what Ive been searching for. Great info!


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## mike bennett

nuclearpak said:


> A mirage from number 7 sqn was involved in a premature ejection. Pilots name SL SHABIR SHAHEED. The seat ejected while performing ground checks under the shed and the pilot ramped up into the roof.
> 
> A tragic and unfortunate accident. MAy the departed soul rest is peace. I donot wish to spaculate on the circumstances, yet there are various procedures and precautions to avoid inadvertent firing of ejection seat on ground.
> 
> A fighter pilot is in fact sitting on top of a powerful rocket which though is a life saver can be lethal in case of an accident. A few weeks back a RAF pilot was killed when the ejection seat, of a BAe Hawk aircraft of Red Arrows display team fired inadvertently while the aircraft was about to taxi from the tarmac.


 
Dear nuclearpak,
Do you have any further details regarding the ejection and death of the pilot. Was the event mentioned on any media in Pakistan?
Thanks in advance for any further information.
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk


----------



## CallsignAlzaeem

fatman17 said:


> where r they sitting - in a transport a/c?


 
USAF C-17 Globemaster.

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## fatman17

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> USAF C-17 Globemaster.



what the heck they are doing there?


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> what the heck they are doing there?



Since all of them have the F-16s patches, either on the Red Flag exercises or some other international exercise or the Blk-52 guys on training.

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## RafaleTyphoon

mike bennett said:


> Dear nuclearpak,
> Do you have any further details regarding the ejection and death of the pilot. Was the event mentioned on any media in Pakistan?
> Thanks in advance for any further information.
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk




yes its confirmed by alan warnes & others.after the jf 17 crash, a twin seater paf mirage has crashed near base masroor killing the pilot, a sqdn ldr.
although the media is trying to hide it.

rip to sqdn ldr Shabbir


----------



## TaimiKhan

RafaleTyphoon said:


> yes its confirmed by alan warnes & others.after the jf 17 crash, a twin seater paf mirage has crashed near base masroor killing the pilot, a sqdn ldr.
> although the media is trying to hide it.
> 
> rip to sqdn ldr Shabbir



You guys are unbelievable. 

Did you watch Pak news channels to ascertain that no news of this incident happened ??

There was no crash, it was by mistake or due to technical malfunction seat ejection while the aircraft was parked in its hanger and the pilot who was in the seat died when the ejected seat hit the roof of the hangar. 

And it was reported in the media very well.

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## Areesh

RafaleTyphoon said:


> yes its confirmed by alan warnes & others.after the jf 17 crash, a twin seater paf mirage has crashed near base masroor killing the pilot, a sqdn ldr.
> although the media is trying to hide it.
> 
> rip to sqdn ldr Shabbir



Rubbish. You guys are joke.


----------



## Jango

mike bennett said:


> Dear nuclearpak,
> Do you have any further details regarding the ejection and death of the pilot. Was the event mentioned on any media in Pakistan?
> Thanks in advance for any further information.
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk



I don't have much info on it.

Just that a ejection inside the hangar occured.

Will try to gather more on it though.

---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------




RafaleTyphoon said:


> yes its confirmed by alan warnes & others.after the jf 17 crash, a twin seater paf mirage has crashed near base masroor killing the pilot, a sqdn ldr.
> although the media is trying to hide it.
> 
> rip to sqdn ldr Shabbir



See post 1383 you troll.

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## John Doe

Windjammer said:


> Living in oblivion, are you....here enlighten your self.
> 
> Livefist: The Needless IJT Incident of February 8


 
so you believe that Baldev &#8220;Baldy&#8221; Singh committed suicide in Nov. 2nd week for an incident that took place in Feb? That too after being promoted recently as the HAL Director ( Corporate planning & marketing)

Really?


----------



## Najam Khan

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> Sq. Ldr. Shabbir Ishtiaq Shaheed with Wing Commander Asim Paracha Shaheed.




Sad to hear about the incident. 

Don't know what went wrong in the above mentioned incident but sometime a small mistake somewhere lead to disasters...not following the right order of pre-flight checks in one similar example.

There was a collision of two C-130s at Chaklala in mid90s...one of the reason of crash was not adhering to the basic rule. They were testing Hercs engine in the tarmac, which have not have done.

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## ahussains

Are they sitting in the recently upgraded C130


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## CallsignAlzaeem

ahussains said:


> Are they sitting in the recently upgraded C130



Negative its USAF Globemaster III.

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## gopang

PAF is going through the same PAF is going through the same phase like the IAF in the 80's due to the aging Mig-21s. The only solution is new aircraft. phase like the IAF in the 80's due to the aging Mig-21s. The only solution is new aircraft.


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## Wingman

mike bennett said:


> Dear nuclearpak,
> Do you have any further details regarding the ejection and death of the pilot. Was the event mentioned on any media in Pakistan?
> Thanks in advance for any further information.
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk



Dear Mike,

Did you check the messages i sent you????

---------- Post added at 08:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 PM ----------




VCheng said:


> Mike:
> 
> These two:
> 
> Sqdn Ldr Hassan Akhtar, 9 August 1974, F-6 crash a few miles outside Sargodha AFB, ?flameout at high AoA.
> 
> Sqdn Ldr. Hasnat, first week of September 1976(?), F-6 crash at Sargodha AFB, during acrobatics.
> 
> I was fairly young at that time but thses should be enough details to get more information.
> 
> VCheng.



I saw the crash of Wing Commander Hasnat at PAF Base Sargodha, in 1983, during aerobatics.......

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## bilal

it was JF17 thunder crashed there are still some bugs in it.


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## Dazzler

bilal said:


> it was JF17 thunder crashed there are still some bugs in it.



Stop posting BS info, verify your facts if you have some. No JFT crash after the one that occurred last month. Read Taimi's post for reference. Enough said!

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## Last Hope

nabil_05 said:


> Stop posting BS info, verify your facts if you have some. *No JFT crash after the one that occurred last month*. Read Taimi's post for reference. Enough said!


Or earlier. In those years of flying.


bilal said:


> it was JF17 thunder crashed there are still some bugs in it.


Easy to say than prove. JF-17 has got over 10,000 flying hours, and the crash took place after the figures of 10,000 were produced. The thunder has taken part in airshows, including three major ones.


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## bilal

brother can any one tell me why it crashed?or pilot error?

---------- Post added at 04:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 PM ----------

bro yea same one crashed do you know why it crashed?


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## Last Hope

bilal said:


> brother can any one tell me why it crashed?or pilot error?


What I am saying is not official word. But this is the real thing.
A bird struck the jet a few minutes after takeoff.

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## JonAsad

This thread gives me goosebumps- when ever it pops up in "Today's Post" section-

Alhamdolillah nothing happened-

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## Imran Khan

sadia17 said:


> mig 21 and f7 are flying .........................



we don't have mig-21s f-7 are in service till jf-17 numbers rise 10sqn .


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## Raftar

Rain said:


> *I just randomly came accross a site claiming that JF 17 thunder crashed in Attok, blogger did not mentioned a date yet he posted Pics of crash site.
> Here they are
> 
> Crash Site Images Confirming JF-17 Thunder Crash
> 
> 11:46 AM Qamar No comments
> 
> 
> These images are from the site where fighter jet of the Pakistan air force crashed earlier today. These images clearly confirm that crashed aircraft was indeed JF-17 Thunder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force crashed in Punjab while it was returning to the PAF Minhas Airbase.
> 
> 
> PAF's JF-17 Fighter Jet Crashed Near Hazro, Attock
> 
> 
> Read more: Crash Site Images Confirming JF-17 Thunder Crash ~ Pakistan Military Review
> 
> comments needed to confirm or deny the crash jet is indeed JF 17!*



Yaaar isn't these pictures of Jft crashed in Quetta? 























JUST ASKING


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## Last Hope

- There has been only one unfortunate JF-17 crash. That is in Attock, and the above posted pictures belong to that incident.


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## Raftar

^^ thanks brother


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## Archie

Imran Khan said:


> we don't have mig-21s f-7 are in service till jf-17 numbers rise 10sqn .



I think PAF F7PGs will serve till 2025 coz they were inducted in yr 2000-02 if i am not mistaken
I think its quite similar to 57 IAF Jaguars which were inducted after yr 1999 and will retire in 2026 , 
while Mirage3/5 and older J7 should be replaced by JF17


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## CallsignAlzaeem

AFM has confirmed that the JFT which crashed last month was the recent one delivered and was on test flight by Sq. Leader Hussain.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

has the fleet been grounded for now or are tests being continued on schedule?


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## hatf IX

is there any official report on the crash - - - - - - - - released yet - - - - - - - - - -


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## Imran Khan

Archie said:


> I think PAF F7PGs will serve till 2025 coz they were inducted in yr 2000-02 if i am not mistaken
> I think its quite similar to 57 IAF Jaguars which were inducted after yr 1999 and will retire in 2026 ,
> while Mirage3/5 and older J7 should be replaced by JF17



i don't think so they will be in service till 2025 dear max i expect from them 2016-17 at the end .mirage rose may be till 2018-20 .as soon as more thunders and fc-20 arrived these will out from service .as you can see in 2nd sqn time all A-5s gone out .


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## Archie

Imran Khan said:


> i don't think so they will be in service till 2025 dear max i expect from them 2016-17 at the end .mirage rose may be till 2018-20 .as soon as more thunders and fc-20 arrived these will out from service .as you can see in 2nd sqn time all A-5s gone out .


 
You know , 
you could actually be right on that 
PAF Mirages and F7 will completely retire by 2020
if we take into account that Paf has 280 J7 and Mirages in service and 30 odd A5 fantams were retired recently
so my guess is that 25O odd JF17 and 36-72 J1OB should be enough to replace them


However i still believe that F7PG will be the last of the 3rd gen fighters to retire since they are far younger than Mirage III Rose , 
F7PG could remain in service till JF 17 number reaches 250


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## Archie

However , as far as IAF , is concerned
while our 150 odd MIg 21 will retire by 2017 and 100 Mig 27 will retire by 2020
and 66 Jaguars will retire by 2022
but remaining 12 Jaguar IM anti ship aircraft and 57 Jaguar IS/IT new build Darin IV Jaguars inducted between 2001 and 2008 and which are used for CAS and anti armour role in suport of Indian Army,
will remain in service till 2026 , and last 2 Jaguar Sqds could remain in service till 2030 , since they were inducted between 2004-08


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## Areesh

xataxsata said:


> I don't think that they have made it public.
> 
> Forget about report why PAF have taken so long to accept that the crashed aircraft is JF- 17??
> 
> till few days everybody was saying it was a trainer not JF-17.



It was said on the same day on all TV channels and newspapers by PAF that it was a JFT. So stop this rubbish.


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## VCheng

Wingman said:


> ...............
> 
> I saw the crash of Wing Commander Hasnat at PAF Base Sargodha, in 1983, during aerobatics.......



I was not sure of the date. His brother was my friend back then.


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## Rafi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> has the fleet been grounded for now or are tests being continued on schedule?



The fleet has not been grounded, preliminary investigation that bird strike most likely cause, flying display at Dubai Air Show also went ahead as scheduled.

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## Last Hope

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> AFM has confirmed that the JFT which crashed last month was the recent one delivered and was on test flight by Sq. Leader Hussain.


I saw that weeks before he said it. 


Abu Zolfiqar said:


> has the fleet been grounded for now or are tests being continued on schedule?


No idea. Most likely to be flying high.


Rafi said:


> The fleet has not been grounded, preliminary investigation that bird strike most likely cause, flying display at Dubai Air Show also went ahead as scheduled.


Rafi, that was 16th Squadron and this crash was newly produced. What AZ meant was about the fleet of JF-17s at Kamra.
Yes, it is a bird hit.


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## blackops

i hope no crash has taken place i hate these threads

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## notorious_eagle

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> has the fleet been grounded for now or are tests being continued on schedule?



The fleet was not grounded, as Rafi said it appears to be a bird strike. I talked to a source whose very close to the PAF, preliminary results indicated that it was a bird strike so there was no need to ground the entire fleet. I haven't really followed up on this so don't know what the conclusion of the investigation was. PAF was more worried about the fact that why didn't the parachute deploy from the ejection seat.


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## VCheng

notorious_eagle said:


> ................... PAF was more worried about the fact that why didn't the parachute deploy from the ejection seat.



That is the more important question that needs a proper answer. Personnel are far more precious than any plane.

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## Last Hope

VCheng said:


> That is the more important question that needs a proper answer. Personnel are far more precious than any plane.



Low altitude and angel of ejection. He headed straight for hills, after the ejection.

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## TaimiKhan

Guys, JF-17 fleet was grounded atleast in Peshawar. After the crash i could hardly see any JF-17 flying and the major activity of JF-17s only happened on the very next day of NATO attack in Mohmand, when lot of sorties took place that day, after that again there was quietness, but in the last few days JF-17s are back in action as per their previous routine. 

After the crash, the sorties were either completely stopped or reduced to its lowest, but now they are back in action.

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## Last Hope

Squadron Leader Shabbir Ishtiaq Shaheed.














> fatman17- where r they sitting - in a transport a/c?
> 
> CallsignAlzaeem- USAF C-17 Globemaster.
> fatman17-what the heck they are doing there?
> 
> TaimiKhan- Since all of them have the F-16s patches, either on the Red Flag exercises or some other international exercise or the Blk-52 guys on training.



Sir, this was probably during participation in Anatolian Eagle.

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## rohailmalhi

Last Hope said:


> Squadron Leader Shabbir Ishtiaq Shaheed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, this was probably during participation in Anatolian Eagle.



What happened to him, he seem to be F-16 pilot and i dont think that we have any accident related to F16 lately.........

May his soul rest in Peace.Ameen

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## CallsignAlzaeem

rohailmalhi said:


> What happened to him, he seem to be F-16 pilot and i dont think that we have any accident related to F16 lately.........
> 
> May his soul rest in Peace.Ameen



No he embraced shahadat due to an inadvertent ejection while his jet (Mirage) was parked under the shed,His last words were ''Allah khair karay''.

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## rohailmalhi

May his soul rest in Peace.May Allah (S.W.T) grant him Jannah and give his family the strength & courage to bear this loss.

From Pic he seem to be a very nice guy.

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## JonAsad

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> No he embraced shahadat due to an inadvertent ejection while his jet (Mirage) was parked under the shed,His last words were ''Allah khair karay''.


 
when this happened?-
Link plz-


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## CallsignAlzaeem

JonAsad said:


> when this happened?-
> Link plz-



26/11 the day NATO attacked border posts.Got no media coverage because of the NATO incident.

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## VCheng

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> No he embraced shahadat due to an inadvertent ejection while his jet (Mirage) was parked under the shed,His last words were ''Allah khair karay''.



May he rest in eternal peace.


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## Irfan Baloch

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> No he embraced shahadat due to an inadvertent ejection while his jet (Mirage) was parked under the shed,His last words were ''Allah khair karay''.



the last Red arrow pilot had the same fate while his jet was on gorund. 
may his soul rest in peace


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## CallsignAlzaeem

rohailmalhi said:


> May his soul rest in Peace.May Allah (S.W.T) grant him Jannah and give his family the strength & courage to bear this loss.
> 
> From Pic he seem to be a very nice guy.



Always smiling.

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## umair shah

we have lost three pilots in 3 monts or so (2 on mirages and 1 on thunder) thats v big loss indeed


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## aamirzs

Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Ilayhi Rajiuoon.


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## Bratva

on a side note, the mirage pilot died due to seat ejection is not reported anywhere in the media or PAF has not notified this incident in their official press release


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## killerx

May his soul rest in Peace.Ameen


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## Bratva

*PAF aircraft crashes near Mianwali, female pilot injured*

MIANWALI: A training aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-7 crashed in the Wan Bachran area near Mianwali airbase on Tuesday. The female pilot and her assistant sustained injuries in the crash.
According to Express News, the plane was destroyed in the crash. However, reports about the reason of the crash have still not surfaced.
On January 17, another air craft crashed in Turkey resulting in the death of its pilot Squadron Leader Masood Hussain.
Hussain&#8217;s funeral was held on Tuesday at the PAF Base in Lahore.
Last year in august, one civilian was killed and a female pilot was injured when a PAF plane crashed near Bhakkar.
PAF has said its plane was on a routine training flight when a technical fault occurred.

PAF aircraft crashes near Mianwali, female pilot injured &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## fatman17

thank God the pilots survived!

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------




mafiya said:


> *PAF aircraft crashes near Mianwali, female pilot injured*
> 
> MIANWALI: A training aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)* F-7* crashed in the Wan Bachran area near Mianwali airbase on Tuesday. The female pilot and her assistant sustained injuries in the crash.
> According to Express News, the plane was destroyed in the crash. However, reports about the reason of the crash have still not surfaced.
> On January 17, another air craft crashed in Turkey resulting in the death of its pilot Squadron Leader Masood Hussain.
> Hussain&#8217;s funeral was held on Tuesday at the PAF Base in Lahore.
> Last year in august, one civilian was killed and a female pilot was injured when a PAF plane crashed near Bhakkar.
> PAF has said its plane was on a routine training flight when a technical fault occurred.
> 
> PAF aircraft crashes near Mianwali, female pilot injured &#8211; The Express Tribune



FT-7P to be exact

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## Abu Zolfiqar

aircrafts can be replaced....especially old ones due for retirement

skilled pilots are difficult to replace....


glad they are okay; inquiry should be made as to what kind of tech fault was developed


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## ice_man

F7 frames are too old we must retire them asap!!!!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ice_man said:


> F7 frames are too old we must retire them asap!!!!



the ones whose frames are nearing their lives end should indeed be retired asap....but not all our F-7 aircrafts are old (age wise)


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## Windjammer

That's the second crash involving a PAF female pilot in a similar aircraft.....good job in both incidents the crew managed to eject safely but it must be hard for their families. The PG versions are less than a decade old but the F-7P/TP are getting on a bit.


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> That's the second crash involving a PAF female pilot in a similar aircraft.....good job in both incidents the crew managed to eject safely but it must be hard for their families. The PG versions are less than a decade old but the F-7P/TP are getting on a bit.



Interesting.. it seems the PAF is keen on using women pilots as instructors.. or is it?
Since in this case the "assistant" might be a student.
Although in our male dominated society, I am not sure how effective it will be against chauvinist students.


----------



## ice_man

A military funeral was held for Maj. Massoud Hussein Chhachhar, 35, who was killed in a training flight off Turkey's Aegean coast Jun. 16, in the Pakistani city of Lahore today. 

Chhachhar was training Turkish pilot Lt. Serkan Sa&#287;&#305;r on a D-137 plane when it crashed into the Aegean Sea near the western province of &#304;zmir, killing both pilots. 

The funeral was attended by Gen. Recep Yüksel of Turkey's Air Training Command, Turkish Ambassador to Islamabad Babür H&#305;zlan, Punjab Provincial Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif and ranking officers from the Pakistani air force. Turkish President Abdullah Gül and Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdo&#287;an sent laurels to the funeral.

Chhachhar has been training Turkish pilots for the past two years as part of a military cooperation agreement between Turkey and Pakistan. He had the most flight hours among servicemen in his rank and Turkish officials had requested to extend his tour of duty for another year due to "outstanding service," the report said.

Chhachhar's coffin, wrapped in both the Turkish and Pakistani flags, was flown to his home village for burial after the ceremony. He has been married for three years.

Search and rescue teams have spotted the dead body of Turkish Lt. Sa&#287;&#305;r who died in the crash at around noon today. 


ASIA - Pakistani officer laid to rest as Turkish pilot's body found


WHAT A GREAT HERO!!!! REST IN PEACE! 

And say not of those who are slain in the Way of God: 'They are dead.' Nay, they are living, Though you perceive it not." (Qur'an 2:154)


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## Archie

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the ones whose frames are nearing their lives end should indeed be retired asap....but not all our F-7 aircrafts are old (age wise)



Yeah you are right , Pakistan Did Purchase 50 F7PG in yr 2001-02 and they will remain in service till yr 2022-25

Actually Mig 21/27 or F7 A/B/P/PG/BG Have an airframe Life of 20 yrs , 

but barring Russia and China all other operators of these aircraft have been flying them way past there airframe life , the reason being that many countries cannot afford quick replacements , or like in case of India , the govt is far too incompetent to make the decision on replacement 

Infact the 450 odd Mig21s inducted by India between 1963-84 , started falling Down in the late 1980s , but instead of deciding upon replacing them , they started the LCA Project in 1980s , and when the situation became critical in 1990s , when even Mig23/27 started falling , they decided to Purchase 50 Su30MKI from Russia and Manufacture another 140 in India under TOT , This was followed by another contract to Purchase 40 MORE MKI in 2007 and 42 more in 2011 for a total fleet of 272 Su30MKI


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## Tehmasib

an other bad news of the day.......thanks God polits are safe as statement


----------



## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> Interesting.. it seems the PAF is keen on using women pilots as instructors.. or is it?
> Since in this case the "assistant" might be a student.
> Although in our male dominated society, I am not sure how effective it will be against chauvinist students.



Albeit, my understanding is that the female pilots are the students but if they have qualified to become instructors, the tough guys will just need to bite their tongue and can perhaps prove their macho abilities in a DACT with their instructors. 

BTW, for a minute I thought we have a new MOD.


----------



## Windjammer

*
Another source reported that it was an MFI-17 Mushaq turbo trainer.*

*
Woman pilot hurt in Pakistan Air Force plane crash*

Islamabad, Jan 25, 2012, (IANS)
A woman pilot and her flight coordinator were injured when a Pakistan Air Force training aircraft crashed Wednesday in Punjab province, a media report said.

The small aircraft crashed in Mianwali at about 10.20 a.m. when the woman pilot was on a routine training mission with her flight coordinator, reported Xinhua citing a TV report.
Eyewitnesses said the plane caught fire before crashing to the ground. 

The training aircraft, Mushshak, is a plane manufactured by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. The MFI-17 Mushshak (The Proficient) is a light-weight, robust, two/three seater, single engine, predominantly all metal aircraft with tricycle fixed landing gear.

At present over 200 Mushshak planes are in service in the Pakistan Air Force. 
The plane is used for training the student pilots about the fundamentals of aircraft operation and night flying.


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## zavis2003

Why didnot they ejected ? is there no ejection seats available in these aircrafts?


----------



## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

zavis2003 said:


> Why didnot they ejected ? is there no ejection seats available in these aircrafts?



They did ejected my boy. And both the trainee and the instructor are safe..


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## Last Hope

We can see F-7Ps falling at greater pace. The last PAF F-7 crash was a FT-7P crash too, with a female pilot injured. But thanks to Allah, in both crashes the pilots are safe and steady.

Must look into it, F-7Ps are now becoming dangerous to the Air Force personnel and civilian property.


On the other note, here is picture of Squadron Leader Masood Hussain shaheed - January 17, 2012.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Last Hope said:


> Must look into it, F-7Ps are now becoming dangerous to the Air Force personnel and civilian property.



Both F-7p & Mirages, we can term it as Pakistani *Flying coffins* now. every month or in two months its often crashing Mirage or F-7 killing or injuring pilots. If any one could post the collection of PAF crashes during 2011, it would be these two birds scoring high in the chart.
Excluding PGs


----------



## soul hacker

[video]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=355506961145591&set=vb.100000588692764&type=2&theater[/video]


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## Imran Khan



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## fatman17

Last Hope said:


> We can see F-7Ps falling at greater pace. The last PAF F-7 crash was a FT-7P crash too, with a female pilot injured. But thanks to Allah, in both crashes the pilots are safe and steady.
> 
> Must look into it, F-7Ps are now becoming dangerous to the Air Force personnel and civilian property.
> 
> 
> On the other note, here is picture of Squadron Leader Masood Hussain shaheed - January 17, 2012.



God Bless Him!

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## Imran Khan

*Wing Commander Waqar and Flying Officer Fatima *

any pics of both ???????


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## Last Hope

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=355506961145591




*
You can see some glimpse of them over here.*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

i think its wrong of geo to film them while they are injured --regardless of degree of injury, even if its minor aches. It's wrong. They are still in the line of duty so f*ck off geo camera-men!

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## Imran Khan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i think its wrong of geo to film them while they are injured --regardless of degree of injury, even if its minor aches. It's wrong. They are still in the line of duty so f*ck off geo camera-men!




i think it was mobile camera dear someone send them from crash site .


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## Abu Zolfiqar

yeah and geo azz holes happy to post it without even giving it a blink or a thought.......?

i know the American servicemen in Iraq & Afghanistan film themselves, even when they are injured and lying bleeding. I don't think this is proper thing to do -- go and uploading these things. Maybe i'm old fashioned or just weird as a person.

i dont like this types of things to be made public....yes theyre human beings yes they also face danger and injury, but when it happens no cameras should be allowed. Film the wreckage no problem, but dont film the pilots until after they make recovery and can themselves explain to media what happened before and during crash, etc. etc.


----------



## Imran Khan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yeah and geo azz holes happy to post it without even giving it a blink or a thought.......?
> 
> i know the American servicemen in Iraq & Afghanistan film themselves, even when they are injured and lying bleeding. I don't think this is proper thing to do -- go and uploading these things. Maybe i'm old fashioned or just weird as a person.
> 
> i dont like this types of things to be made public....yes theyre human beings yes they also face danger and injury, but when it happens no cameras should be allowed. Film the wreckage no problem, but dont film the pilots until after they make recovery and can themselves explain to media what happened before and during crash, etc. etc.



sir you are right i haev same thoughts and feelings our stupid media need to grow up and we should have some effective law what to play on air and what should not . belagam media now making so much problems . they should ask air HQ before damn play it

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## Last Hope

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i think its wrong of geo to film them while they are injured --*regardless of degree of injury, even if its minor aches.* It's wrong. They are still in the line of duty so f*ck off geo camera-men!


Seems like they have got some pressure on their body hence both were unconscious. Imagine moving from normal pressure to low pressure in fraction of second, and that too from a speed measurable in _'Machs'_. According to some Think Tanks on the forum, ejection effects your spine and many pilots are grounded due to health hazards from ejection.



Imran Khan said:


> i think it was mobile camera dear someone send them from crash site .



Either way, both are wrong.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

brother,

they shouldnt even have to ask permission; they should have the brains to know what to share with public and what not to make public.....morality ki baat hy na

there've been times they endangered lives of regular troops and FCs in FATA insurgency hit areas....by visually showing where they are, and militants know the areas well they could detect where the troops were positioned just by watching geo live on tv screen . (i have no trouble with arranging with media to embed press reporters with troops)



but anyways, i wont make a big deal out of it here....just saying that im not agreeing with this thing geo and some of these other media guys are doing - showing injured pilot like that...especially a female pilot

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## JonAsad

Such videos should not be posted on air-

Well with such level of wrong happening in Pakistan- lets give it a sweet pass-


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## Donatello

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i think its wrong of geo to film them while they are injured --regardless of degree of injury, even if its minor aches. It's wrong. They are still in the line of duty so f*ck off geo camera-men!




He can actually sue Geo for that and so can PAF and they very well should. Media needs to be taught a lesson to remain in their limits. The recent garbage by Maya Khan shows that.


----------



## Edevelop

Our media, especially Geo has become retortarted now. They have gone over the limits. Everything they showcase is dramatic and negative. They have not produced one single good journalist and or anything indigenous. They've got the money and they can buy who ever is popular in other channels.


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## Najam Khan

Last Hope said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=355506961145591


Thank God both pilots bailed out successfully. Watching this video, one gets a feeling that the lady pilot is unconscious. People rescuing such pilots generally offer glass of water to clam their nerves...which goes against the pilot in the investigation. As they are instructed not to eat or drink anything before preliminary medical...which is usually conduced in an hour after the ejection. 

Making an ejection is never easy...but living with its long term problems is the difficult part too. Some pilots leave flying after 4-6months, some suffer from backache problems and become permanently unfit for long duration flights..others who were found guilty are silently moved out to non-flying duties, and continue their service behind a desk.

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## mike bennett

Dear Sir,
You show a photo of Squadron Leader Masood Hussain who was involved in the 17/01/2012 loss. May I have permission to use this on my web site at www.ejection-history.org.uk
With respect
Mike Bennett

PS Good news that both crew ejected in recent FT-7P mishap.


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## Last Hope

Yes Mike, sure, why not? 

I do not own the picture neither is it classified. 
In respect and memory to the officer, you can use his picture in gratitude to his service.

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## Jango

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> brother,
> 
> they shouldnt even have to ask permission; they should have the brains to know what to share with public and what not to make public.....morality ki baat hy na
> 
> there've been times they endangered lives of regular troops and FCs in FATA insurgency hit areas....by visually showing where they are, and militants know the areas well they could detect where the troops were positioned just by watching geo live on tv screen . (i have no trouble with arranging with media to embed press reporters with troops)
> 
> 
> 
> but anyways, i wont make a big deal out of it here....just saying that im not agreeing with this thing geo and some of these other media guys are doing - showing injured pilot like that...especially a female pilot



GEO does alot of arguable things.

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## kafumanpk

Do not buy any Chinese aircraft, they are serious security risks. Pakistan can buy Made in the USA, because they are reliable and safe.


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## SQ8

NAjAM Khan said:


> Thank God both pilots bailed out successfully. Watching this video, one gets a feeling that the lady pilot is unconscious. People rescuing such pilots generally offer glass of water to clam their nerves...which goes against the pilot in the investigation. As they are instructed not to eat or drink anything before preliminary medical...which is usually conduced in an hour after the ejection.
> 
> Making an ejection is never easy...but living with its long term problems is the difficult part too. Some pilots leave flying after 4-6months, some suffer from backache problems and become permanently unfit for long duration flights..others who were found guilty are silently moved out to non-flying duties, and continue their service behind a desk.



Unfortunately.. you really cannot blame or stop those people. They see their fellow countrymen in distress , they respond.. they see the media there too.. they intensify their efforts.


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## Najam Khan

Oscar said:


> Unfortunately.. you really cannot blame or stop those people. They see their fellow countrymen in distress , they respond.. they see the media there too.. they intensify their efforts.



But this is not the case each time a pilots ejects or a paratrooper lands on a friendly terrain...some are considered enemy too. In fact, getting good response from the people whose property is recently destroyed would be second lucky gift in the day after bailing out alive.

On a slightly unrelated note, a Mirage crashed in my village in late70/early80s...unfortunately the pilot's neck was struck in a tree, resulting imminent death...the 'great old' HGU-55 may have saved him, if it had made contact with the tree. His aircraft destroyed a house and a nearby field...luckily no one on the ground was killed. Air Force later gave enough compensation to the owner for his loss, which included money & tractor both. 

Despite the strict Flt Safety SOPs implemented in all squadrons each year a number of pilots face such inflight emergencies, unfortunately for some bailing out alive isn't possible. God Bless them all!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

kafumanpk said:


> Do not buy any Chinese aircraft, they are serious security risks. Pakistan can buy Made in the USA, because they are reliable and safe.



these '''security risks'' have been serving PAF dutifully for several decades now,.....by and large, trouble-free. Save for a few mis-haps which have also occured with western origin crafts as well.

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## wahabishtiaq

He is my elder brother, i think we have lost a great brother, soldier and Momin! i believe Allah has his will, and His will has to be fulfilled. it irrelevant to think what can be causes, lets not indulge ourselves in this discerning argument. i met him when i went back to KHI for my nikkah it was a splendid time, never knew this is my last visit to him. 

May Allah bless all of us with shahdat !!!

Wahab Ishtiaq
London

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## fatman17

wahabishtiaq said:


> He is my elder brother, i think we have lost a great brother, soldier and Momin! i believe Allah has his will, and His will has to be fulfilled. it irrelevant to think what can be causes, lets not indulge ourselves in this discerning argument. i met him when i went back to KHI for my nikkah it was a splendid time, never knew this is my last visit to him.
> 
> May Allah bless all of us with shahdat !!!
> 
> Wahab Ishtiaq
> London



God Bless your Brother, you & your family!

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## humza_313

A PAF F-7PG of the No 23 (Talons) sqn based at Smungali crashed near Pishin.

The pilot Flt Lt Haseef (122 GD(p)) was martyred in the crash. May his soul rest in peace!
Ameen.


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## Riz

Another PAF training Jet crashed in Pasheen Quetta Just heard Pilot Killed too..........


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## Zarvan

humza_313 said:


> A PAF F-7PG of the No 23 (Talons) sqn based at Smungali crashed near Pishin.
> 
> The pilot Flt Lt Haseef (122 GD(p)) was martyred in the crash. May his soul rest in peace!
> Ameen.


PAF should on emergency bases check the conditions of these planes Crash have increase a lot in past few years PAF needs to work fast to improve or replace Old planes and also check new planes


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## SQ8

Zarvan said:


> PAF should on emergency bases check the conditions of these planes Crash have increase a lot in past few years PAF needs to work fast to improve or replace Old planes and also check new planes



The PG's are relatively new.. the last delivered some 6 or 7 years ago.
But then again..a brand new JF-17 also crashed.
This is part of the risk involved in such advanced equipment.
Although I think the AVM incharge of PAF engineering and that of flight safety needs to take notice.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Burai Aye hui hai PAF per, her mahinay plane crash. 
Whats happening here. ?????


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## farhan_9909

what is wrong with the ejection seat?


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## DANGER-ZONE

farhan_9909 said:


> what is wrong with the ejection seat?



And not a single investigation report / cause of Crash of JF-17 ! 
WTH, Is the corruption has taken place in PAF as well ?


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## rockstarIN

danger-zone said:


> And not a single investigation report / cause of Crash of JF-17 !
> WTH, Is the corruption has taken place in PAF as well ?



Even I was looking for the answer for that crash, but not able to dig it out. Did PAF grounded all JF-17s till they get the investigation report?


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## farhan_9909

danger-zone said:


> And not a single investigation report / cause of Crash of JF-17 !
> WTH, Is the corruption has taken place in PAF as well ?



Welcome to pakistan

corrouption in them is less only because they have limited funds

---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------




rockstar said:


> Even I was looking for the answer for that crash, but not able to dig it out. Did PAF grounded all JF-17s till they get the investigation report?



foriegn particle entered the engine

might be a bird hit..

though why the ejection seat nt worked.report should have been made on this


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## DANGER-ZONE

farhan_9909 said:


> Welcome to pakistan
> 
> corrouption in them is less only because they have limited funds
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> *foriegn particle entered the engine
> 
> might be a bird hit..
> 
> though why the ejection seat nt worked.report should have been made on this*



This is nothing, just Speculation. 
WE NEED REPORT ! Our pilots are not stunt guys to operate risky machines, Our Pilots are dying for nothing.


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## Last Hope

*QUETTA: A pilot was killed when his Pakistan Air Force plane crashed Wednesday during a training mission in Balochistan province, an air force spokesman said.
*
&#8220;It was a Chinese-made F-7PG training aircraft,&#8221; Air Commodore Anis Mirza told AFP.

The plane crashed in Pishin district, 65 kilometres north of the provincial capital Quetta, during a &#8220;routine&#8221; training mission, he said, adding that the pilot &#8220;embraced martyrdom&#8221;.

The cause of the crash was not immediately known, he said. An investigation is under way.
*
It was the fourth air force jet to crash in training in over three months.

Two pilots were killed in the other incidents and a helicopter crash last June killed four military personnel.*


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## Shahzad Sultan

May Allah bless the departed soul of Pilot and bestow his family the patience to bear this irreparable loss


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## Last Hope

Flt. Lt. Haseef Alam _Shaheed_, the lost warrior in today's crash. May Allah bless him with high ranks of Jannat.

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## lama

*Chinese-made Pakistan air force jet crashes, pilot killed*
Islamabad: A China-made Pakistan Air Force jet today crashed while on a routine training mission in southwestern Balochistan province, killing the pilot.

A F-7PG PAF fighter aircraft, while on a routine training mission, crashed 24 nautical miles north of Quetta (the capital of Balochistan), a PAF statement said.

F-7P of the Pakistan Air Force. 
The pilot was killed in the crash, the statement said.

No loss to civilian life or property on ground has been reported, it added.

The PAF ordered an official inquiry to determine the cause of the accident.

The Chinese-made aircraft came down near Pishin, 50 km from Quetta, shortly after taking off from an airbase, TV news channels reported.

This was the fourth air force jet to crash in three months, media reports said.

Two pilots were killed in recent accidents and a helicopter crash in June last year killed four military personnel.

The PAF has a large fleet of Chinese aircraft, including F-7PGs and A-5s.

It also operates US-made F-16s and French Mirage jets.

It recently inducted the JF-7 Thunder jet which was jointly developed by China and Pakistan
Chinese-made Pakistan air force jet crashes, pilot killed | Firstpost


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## Last Hope

My information again says it to be bird-hit. Cannot guarantee as of now.


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## BATMAN

Oscar said:


> The PG's are relatively new.. the last delivered some 6 or 7 years ago.
> But then again..a brand new JF-17 also crashed.
> This is part of the risk involved in such advanced equipment.
> Although I think the AVM incharge of PAF engineering and that of flight safety needs to take notice.



It is well known that JFT was a bird strike and so is the F7PG!

Why you are tuning against engineering?


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## karan.1970

Looks like some old inventory of PAF is going over the life cycle hump like Mig 21s started doing a few years back..PAF should learn from IAF mistakes and take corrective action before there is a further spike in crashes and deaths..

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## BATMAN

karan.1970 said:


> Looks like some old inventory of PAF is going over the life cycle hump like Mig 21s started doing a few years back..PAF should learn from IAF mistakes and take corrective action before there is a further spike in crashes and deaths..



How does a bird hit can be corrected?


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## trident2010

Pilot killed in PAF plane crash


QUETTA: A pilot was killed when his Pakistan Air Force plane crashed Wednesday during a training mission in Balochistan province, an air force spokesman said.

It was a Chinese-made F-7PG training aircraft, Air Commodore Anis Mirza told AFP.

The plane crashed in Pishin district, 65 kilometres north of the provincial capital Quetta, during a routine training mission, he said, adding that the pilot embraced martyrdom.

The cause of the crash was not immediately known, he said. An investigation is under way.

It was the fourth air force jet to crash in training in over three months.

Two pilots were killed in the other incidents and a helicopter crash last June killed four military personnel.

The Pakistan Air Force has a fleet of Chinese aircraft including F-7PGs and A-5s, plus US-built F-16s and French Mirages. It recently acquired medium-tech JF-17, or Thunder jets, manufactured jointly by China and Pakistan.


Pilot killed in PAF plane crash | Pakistan | DAWN.COM


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## SQ8

BATMAN said:


> It is well known that JFT was a bird strike and so is the F7PG!
> 
> Why you are *tuning against engineering*?



I am not _tuning_(??) against anything, but the recent two FT-7P crashes demand the attention of the flight safety officer.
concentrate on the topic instead of me.


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## Peregrine

Coming from a highly reliable source, *The plane was downed by rocket or some thing like that, the pilot had ejected safely but was shot dead.*. This is what his parents have been told. Who are the perpetrators? Can't say.


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## BATMAN

Oscar said:


> I am not _tuning_(??) against anything, but the recent two FT-7P crashes demand the attention of the flight safety officer.
> concentrate on the topic instead of me.



Please read you last post and you will get your answer.

You hinted at engineering and flying safety for JFT crash and F7PG.

Any one can guess what your message is.


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## rockstarIN

F-7Ps are quite different from what IAF operates. Engine for e.g and read somewhere that the landing and take off speed adjustment was done compared to other Mig variants till a certain level. then?


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## karan.1970

BATMAN said:


> How does a bird hit can be corrected?



There are multiple ways of avoiding that.. But bird hits dont seem to be only reasons for all these crashes now.. Are they?


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## BATMAN

Peregrine said:


> Coming from a highly reliable source, *The plane was downed by rocket or some thing like that, the pilot had ejected safely but was shot dead.*. This is what his parents have been told.



Are you telling us, not enough reason to blame engineering and safety!!!


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## Najam Khan

Few years ago, PAF surpassed 90,000 accident free hours in a year...that was all time best. Its sad that the pendulum has taken the lower end now. May Allah bless the fallen soldier.Amen!


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## karan.1970

Peregrine said:


> Coming from a highly reliable source, *The plane was downed by rocket or some thing like that, the pilot had ejected safely but was shot dead.*. This is what his parents have been told. Who are the perpetrators? Can't say.



cr@p.. This is serious.. You mean BLA and TTP now have access to AA armaments ???


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## SQ8

Peregrine said:


> Coming from a highly reliable source, *The plane was downed by rocket or some thing like that, the pilot had ejected safely but was shot dead.*. This is what his parents have been told. Who are the perpetrators? Can't say.



That is very disturbing if true. 



BATMAN said:


> *Any one can guess what your message is.*



Depends on the guesser.
My message was possible PAF Air staff response. Not a tirade against anyone which is what you seem to be instigating.


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## Harry Potter

karan.1970 said:


> cr@p.. This is serious.. You mean BLA and TTP now have access to AA armaments ???


I think that might have been an answer to reduce blame on the maintenance crew

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## BATMAN

karan.1970 said:


> cr@p.. This is serious.. You mean BLA and TTP now have access to AA armaments ???



War is finally shifting to its destined location Baluchistan.

Iran has once again become active in this region.

Bharti consulate in Zahedan Iran was the launch pad and operational headquarter of BLA for long time.


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## Peregrine

BATMAN said:


> Are you telling us, not enough reason to blame engineering and safety!!!


I am telling you, what i have been told, which is more authentic then the deductions of internet based forum's think-tanks. You are free to accept & believe whatever you like.

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## Harry Potter

BLA do possess some SA-7 Grails according to Al Jazeera.


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## BATMAN

Harry Potter said:


> BLA do possess some SA-7 Grails according to Al Jazeera.



You seem to know every thing about BLA.


----------



## SQ8

Peregrine said:


> I am telling you, what i have been told, which is more authentic then the deductions of internet based forum's think-tanks. You are free to accept & believe whatever you like.



Ill see if I can confirm your claim, although it is unlikely that in the chance what you say is true.. any "source" would like to confirm that without some cajoling.

IN any case, I suggest we concentrate on other probable causes but wait for the PAF's official "statement" on the matter(if there will be any).


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## untitled

Was the aircraft on a attack mission or something ?


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## Peregrine

Lets hope that ISPR will go public with the true happenings of this incident.


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## BATMAN

Peregrine said:


> Lets hope that ISPR will go public with the true happenings of this incident.



Pak army need to go public with all the evidence it have about BLA.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Oscar said:


> IN any case, I suggest we concentrate on other probable causes but wait for the *PAF's official "statement" on the matter(if there will be any)*.



Like this is going to happen. 
It is good to keep civilians and media in away from reality. Every time, after every crash it comes out "WE ARE INVESTIGATING", and nothing more after that.

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## SQ8

danger-zone said:


> Like this is going to happen.
> It is good to keep civilians and media in away from reality. Every time, after every crash it comes out "WE ARE INVESTIGATING", and *nothing more after that*.



Its our fault mon-ami.. that we dont badger them for the details after that anyway..
Neither is the press,politician nor any civil-society guy interested in why a national asset was lost.


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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Its our fault mon-ami.. that we dont badger them for the details after that anyway..
> Neither is the press,politician nor any civil-society guy interested in why a national asset was lost.



As if they will ever give reply to civilians or if truth to be told, it will always be told in "In-camera" Session of parliament.


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## Jango

well gents, internal inquiries don't go out in public, and even if they do, they don't tell the true story, or full story.

If it was shot down by BLA or one of their goons, then launch an operation against them. No more excuses.


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## Irfan Baloch

Oscar said:


> Its our fault mon-ami.. that we dont badger them for the details after that anyway..
> Neither is the press,politician nor any civil-society guy interested in why a national asset was lost.



reference the JF-17 incident, did we not get the investigation findings? is the crash due to bird strike contested?

---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------




nuclearpak said:


> well gents, internal inquiries don't go out in public, and even if they do, they don't tell the true story, or full story.
> 
> If it was shot down by BLA or one of their goons, then launch an operation against them. No more excuses.



but then the story will come from BLA

wait till they claim the responsibility
I did post pictures of BLA terrorists posing with MANPADs so there is always that chance.
whatever the reason a loss is a loss.


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## Jango

Irfan Baloch said:


> but then the story will come from BLA
> 
> wait till they claim the responsibility
> I did post pictures of BLA terrorists posing with MANPADs so there is always that chance.
> whatever the reason a loss is a loss.



Yeah, BLA might have been going around chest thumping that they shot down a plane, but then maybe not.

Although it is too early to ascertain the exact cause, jst hunches.


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## Last Hope

Irfan Baloch said:


> reference the JF-17 incident, did we not get the investigation findings? is the crash due to bird strike contested?


Yes. It is confirmed that the crash was due to a FOD being sucked to engines through intakes. Most likely to be a bird.


> but then the story will come from BLA
> 
> wait till they claim the responsibility
> I did post pictures of BLA terrorists posing with MANPADs so there is always that chance.
> whatever the reason a loss is a loss.


They've got AAA. But the guts to use it, I don't think so.
They know that they'll find JDAMs and cluster bombs raining on them.


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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> reference the JF-17 incident, did we not get the investigation findings? is the crash due to bird strike contested?



The failure of the supposedly state of the art MB-16PK ejection seat(very similar to what goes into the F-35) has still not been clarified. was the ejection too late? Too close to the ground? 
One should reference USAF accident reports to see the detail that is made public.


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## Bratva

Last Hope said:


> *Yes. It is confirmed that the crash was due to a FOD being sucked to engines through intakes. Most likely to be a bird.*
> 
> They've got AAA. But the guts to use it, I don't think so.
> They know that they'll find JDAMs and cluster bombs raining on them.



Who confirmed it btw? the unnamed sources?


----------



## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> The failure of the supposedly state of the art MB-16PK ejection seat(very similar to what goes into the F-35) has still not been clarified. was the ejection too late? Too close to the ground?
> One should reference USAF accident reports to see the detail that is made public.



What about the crash? whats the reason?


----------



## Windjammer

Disturbed by the news, I have just managed to speak in detail with a PAF officer. Basically he said, the F-7PG crashed some 25 miles from it's base, at that point it was flying at around 20,000 feet and some 700 km/hour. Before making any wild assertions, it's worthy to note that insurgents have never attacked PAF , neither do they have the capability. No RPG or rocket can reach that height.
It's much easier to target a lumbering C-130 than a compact and fast jet fighter.


----------



## Peregrine

Windjammer said:


> *Before making any wild assertions, it's worthy to note that insurgents have never attacked PAF , neither do they have the capability. No RPG or rocket can reach that height.*
> It's much easier to target a lumbering C-130 than a compact and fast jet fighter.


Whats this about then BALOCH LAND: BLA shot down Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-7 aircraft did this ever happen? It's from 2010, fake or not, don't know.


----------



## Last Hope

Oscar said:


> The failure of the supposedly state of the art MB-16PK ejection seat(very similar to what goes into the F-35) has still not been clarified. was the ejection too late? Too close to the ground?
> One should reference USAF accident reports to see the detail that is made public.



The answer to your questions.

The angle and time of ejection was the cause. He did eject, but during the final stages, moments before impact. The angle of ejection was 180 degree, and he went straight for the hills. Imagine, your crashing fighter upside down and you eject, with all the power from the rockets of seat, you slam into the hills. 

That's what happened.

---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------




mafiya said:


> Who confirmed it btw? the unnamed sources?


Take me as the source.


----------



## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> The failure of the supposedly state of the art MB-16PK ejection seat(very similar to what goes into the F-35) has still not been clarified. was the ejection too late? Too close to the ground?
> One should reference USAF accident reports to see the detail that is made public.



I was able to discuss the JF-17 incident with my source, the finding so far is that the aircraft was very low when it most probably suffered from a bird strike, albeit the pilot managed to eject, but due to the angle and low altitude, his parachute didn't fully deploy and the pilot virtually hit the ground.


----------



## BATMAN

Peregrine said:


> Whats this about then BALOCH LAND: BLA shot down Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-7 aircraft did this ever happen? It's from 2010, fake or not, don't know.



That's even worst.

Govt. is hiding the situation.


----------



## Windjammer

Peregrine said:


> Whats this about then BALOCH LAND: BLA shot down Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-7 aircraft did this ever happen? It's from 2010, fake or not, don't know.



If you go by such claims then Talibans shoot down a US aircraft every other day. !!


----------



## Last Hope

Winddy, I talked to him and the sources he is quoting are quite strong.

What he posted over here, was told to the family of Flt. Lt. Haseef Alam. That means, either PAF told them the truth, or the lied to them to make them feel pride of losing son in line of duty, not to some technical fault. Let's see.


----------



## Peregrine

According to this extract
"Quetta - A Pakistan Air Force plane crashed in Pasheen, some 50 kilometer from here, on Wednesday, official sources said.

PAF spokesman said a F-7PG, China-provided fighter, crashed in Pasheen. Pilot was killed in the incident.

*Local administration said pilot successfully ejected but sustained serious injuries which proved fatal* . PAF officials reached the spot shortly after the incident . The PAF said that the plane was on training mission(The News Tribe)"

This is more closer to my version; the pilot had ejected safely & was shot dead.
PAF Plane crashes in Balochistan - Pilot embraced Shahadat | PakSoldiers


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## SQ8

*Please remain in the Radius of discussing the Crash and not derail the topic.*


----------



## Jango

Windjammer said:


> I was able to discuss the JF-17 incident with my source, the finding so far is that the aircraft was very low when it most probably suffered from a bird strike, albeit the pilot managed to eject, but due to the angle and low altitude, his parachute didn't fully deploy and the pilot virtually hit the ground.



Happens all to often. Ejection at low altitude.

---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 PM ----------




Windjammer said:


> Disturbed by the news, I have just managed to speak in detail with a PAF officer. Basically he said, the F-7PG crashed some 25 miles from it's base, at that point it was flying at around 20,000 feet and some 700 km/hour. Before making any wild assertions, it's worthy to note that insurgents have never attacked PAF , neither do they have the capability. No RPG or rocket can reach that height.
> It's much easier to target a lumbering C-130 than a compact and fast jet fighter.



At 20,000 feet, no BLA can down a heli even, rather a fighter jet.

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## Windjammer

My source tells me that he was in Dubai when the JF-17 crash took place, the Indian delegation tried their best to capitalise on the situation and spoil the party for PAF. The PAF guy arranged and addressed a media conference, telling the audience that a JF-17 has indeed crashed in Pakistan but it no way relates to the participation in Dubai Air show. Furthermore if the JF-17 crash is to be mentioned in relation to Dubai show, then a break down of all other participants which have crashed over the years around the world should also be included. To the dismay of some, the media tone changed thereafter.


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## BATMAN

1- It is reported the a/c was crashed shortly after takeoff.

2- If pilot ejected from high altitude than he should come on ground safely.

3- When PAF arrived at the dead body of pilot, locals were already there.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Oscar said:


> *Please remain in the Radius of discussing the Crash and not derail the topic.*




I am asking myself what can be more worse that PAF might find the need to hide than the story of the crash itself?
The answer is possibly the pilot error, sabotage or hostile fire.
Your comment about ejection issue with JF-17 suggests that you are not satisfied with the findings and that made me recall the 2 incidents of ejection malfunction in British Hawk trainers belonging to Red Arrow team where two of their aces were lost due to ejection problem. They are fitted with martin-Baker Mk 10B ejection seat and British press did raise the issue with the seat as well but there was no follow up on that.

Coming to this accident I am not sure about the visibility but I can say that Baluchistan is normally very clear and hardly has an overcast like say Sindh or Punjab. The height maybe an issue at this speed whether its engine failure or pilot error one can only guess.
But I will rule out the hostile fire for sure otherwise the internet would have been buzzing by now.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

BATMAN said:


> 1- It is reported the a/c was crashed shortly after takeoff.
> 
> 2- If pilot ejected from high altitude than he should come on ground safely.
> 
> 3- When PAF arrived at the dead body of pilot, locals were already there.



reported by whom? please dont quote some Terrorist sympathiser's blog.

if true then its a big development and it seems that the powers have up'ed the game from attacking FC checkposts.


----------



## Jango

BATMAN said:


> 1- It is reported the a/c was crashed shortly after takeoff.
> 
> 2- If pilot ejected from high altitude than he should come on ground safely.
> 
> 3- When PAF arrived at the dead body of pilot, locals were already there.



at point number 2, the aircraft could have been inverted, and prevented the pilot from ejecting.

and point three, locals are always there first. there is a reason they are called locals.


----------



## Windjammer

As the PAF guy said, if one is to believe all that is on the airwaves then it may as well be concluded that Mushaff Ali Mir was killed by the Americans.


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## Peregrine

nuclearpak said:


> at point number 2, the aircraft could have been inverted, and prevented the pilot from ejecting.
> 
> and point three, locals are always there first. there is a reason they are called locals.


Other than sharing your subjective re-enactment of the incident, can you kindly prove with something lil credible that pilot couldn't eject? One link will also suffice.
I have provided a link which suggests that pilot had ejected successfully.


----------



## Indian Army

*Pak Air Force jet crashes; pilot killed*

ISLAMABAD (PTI): A China-made Pakistan Air Force jet crashed Wednesday while on a routine training mission in southwestern Balochistan province, killing the pilot.

"*A F-7PG PAF fighter aircraft, while on a routine training mission, crashed 24 nautical miles north of Quetta (the capital of Balochistan)," a PAF statement said.*

The pilot was killed in the crash, the statement said.

"No loss to civilian life or property on ground has been reported," it added.

The PAF ordered an official inquiry to determine the cause of the accident.

*The Chinese-made aircraft came down near Pishin, 50 km from Quetta, shortly after taking off from an airbase, TV news channels reported.*

*This was the fourth air force jet to crash in three months, media reports said.*

Two pilots were killed in recent accidents and a helicopter crash in June last year killed four military personnel.

The PAF has a large fleet of Chinese aircraft, including F-7PGs and A-5s.

It also operates US-made F-16s and French Mirage jets.

It recently inducted the JF-7 Thunder jet which was jointly developed by China and Pakistan.

*RIP to the brave Pilot,,,, my condolence for the family!!!*

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## KRAIT

Rest in Peace.....


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## Chanakyaa

RIP to the Pilot.
What was the cause ?


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## Azmal

oh sorry its PAF , Rest in peace


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## Skull and Bones

May the pilot's soul rest in peace. 


And the curse of vintage Mig-21s continues in the sub continent. I'm a bit curios about safety records of PLAAF J-7s.


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## Azmal

Skull and Bones said:


> May the pilot's soul rest in peace.
> 
> 
> And the curse of vintage Mig-21s continues in the sub continent. I'm a bit curios about safety records of PLAAF J-7s.



there shud be nbo comparison...India air force has lost many mig 21 than PAF ...so china safety record batter ...get it


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## Peregrine

thread already exist in Notify PAF crashes.


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## deckingraj

Skull and Bones said:


> May the pilot's soul rest in peace.
> 
> 
> And the curse of vintage Mig-21s continues in the sub continent. I'm a bit curios about safety records of PLAAF J-7s.



What has Mig-21s anything to do with it....you cannot carry on with a vintage machine and expect it to be safe..., no???


----------



## Azmal

deckingraj said:


> What has Mig-21s anything to do with it....you cannot carry on with a vintage machine and expect it to be safe..., no???



they why u operate mig 21...they will be retired automaticlallyt


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## deckingraj

Azmal said:


> there shud be nbo comparison...India air force has lost many mig 21 than PAF ...so china safety record batter ...get it



And here comes someone who has no idea about what is being asked and what is being discussed but still has to comment and vouch for China's record...Amzing!!!...

b/w can someone informed share data about how is PLAAF's record with J-7's look like???

---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------




Azmal said:


> they why u operate mig 21...they will be retired automaticlallyt



You are not making any sense...please read more and write less on this subject!!!

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## Azmal

deckingraj said:


> And here comes someone who has no idea about what is being asked and what is being discussed but still has to comment and vouch for China's record...Amzing!!!...
> 
> b/w can someone informed share data about how is PLAAF's record with J-7's look like???
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> You are not making any sense...please read more and write less on this subject!!!



j 7 has done well for PAF , some crasshed due to bad condition but ok...they are war heros...they defeyted India...and gave us vitireos in war.....now J 20 and J 10 wqill come soon...butth this is bnot to discuss that....rip to Martyrs


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## Bratva

Last Hope said:


> The answer to your questions.
> 
> The angle and time of ejection was the cause. He did eject, but during the final stages, moments before impact. The angle of ejection was 180 degree, and he went straight for the hills. Imagine, your crashing fighter upside down and you eject, with all the power from the rockets of seat, you slam into the hills.
> 
> That's what happened.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------
> 
> 
> *Take me as the source*.



what you told about cause of crash and with such ease then what so secretive about it that PAF didn't chose to disclose it for general people? Even F-22 raptor crash reports were made available to public, then why this pathetic secretive behavior of PAF? todays leaks are not matching up and certainly my source told me so and so, and other came with his other source and told something else type pf things happening now a days are fast becoming unreliable


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## Skull and Bones

deckingraj said:


> What has Mig-21s anything to do with it....you cannot carry on with a vintage machine and expect it to be safe..., no???



No, reasons for most of the crashes has been linked with faulty equipment and poor maintenance. And Chinese made some modifications in their J-7 (Mig-21 licensed production), so just wanted to know did those changes had any effect on its safety records, that's it.


----------



## Armstrong

'To God we belong and to him we return' - RIP brother.

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## Donatello

Skull and Bones said:


> No, reasons for most of the crashes has been linked with faulty equipment and poor maintenance. And Chinese made some modifications in their J-7 (Mig-21 licensed production), so just wanted to know did those changes had any effect on its safety records, that's it.




There were modifications, but PAF hasn't lost as many planes in as little time before. So there is definitely something wrong.

Either with the pilots or the plane. I mean we can blame a couple of crashes on flame-outs, bird strikes etc.....but not this many.


I hope they are quickly replace with the Thunders.


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## TOPGUN

RIP to the pilot and may GOD ease the pain of his family... sad news any deltails?


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## DrSomnath999

R.I.P to the pilot ,


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## IndianTiger

Chinese products are not reliable. we are facing same problems with russian hardwares..


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## Donatello

IndianTiger said:


> Chinese products are not reliable. we are facing same problems with russian hardwares..




So you mean to say Chinese and Russians products are not reliable?


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## karan.1970

Donatello said:


> So you mean to say Chinese and Russians products are not reliable?



Problem with Russian legacy products like Mig 21 etc is of availability of high quality spares..


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## TaimiKhan

F-7PGs are the latest jets with PAF among the F-7 series. Serious review of the F-7 fleet needs to be done. 

And as for some guys saying that BLA thingy, i just wonder Pishin is Pushtun dominated area and not BLA infested area.


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## karan.1970

What has been the average age of few of the recent PAF planes that have crashed ?? Anyone ?


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## blackops

TaimiKhan said:


> F-7PGs are the latest jets with PAF among the F-7 series. Serious review of the F-7 fleet needs to be done.
> 
> And as for some guys saying that BLA thingy, i just wonder Pishin is Pushtun dominated area and not BLA infested area.


sir can a stinger missile bring down an f7 at 20000 height


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## gowthamraj

Sad news indeed.. RIP to poilot


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## TaimiKhan

blackops said:


> sir can a stinger missile bring down an f7 at 20000 height



As far as i know about the Stinger versions, there is none which can go to 20,000 feet.

Yeah the RMP Block II may have that range but in certain conditions.


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## Donatello

TaimiKhan said:


> As far as i know about the Stinger versions, there is none which can go to 20,000 feet.



....and F-7s are pretty agile for stinger at that altitude...so yea...no...stingers cannot be blamed in this case.

---------- Post added at 11:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 PM ----------




karan.1970 said:


> Problem with Russian legacy products like Mig 21 etc is of availability of high quality spares..



But we have seen crashes of Mig21s, Mig23s, 25s, 29s and the Su 30s.......we have seen crashes of F-22s and F-16s...that doesn't justify it that a particularly nation's aircraft are crashing all the time.

For example...with a lot of MIGs...the problem was their cockpit layouts etc...making the flying difficult.


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## BATMAN

IndianTiger said:


> Chinese products are not reliable. we are facing same problems with russian hardwares..



I also noticed this twist in reporting of this crash.

'Chinese made' was categorically added in the headlines.


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## TaimiKhan

Donatello said:


> ....and F-7s are pretty agile for stinger at that altitude...so yea...no...stingers cannot be blamed in this case.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> But we have seen crashes of Mig21s, Mig23s, 25s, 29s and the Su 30s.......we have seen crashes of F-22s and F-16s...that doesn't justify it that a particularly nation's aircraft are crashing all the time.
> 
> For example...with a lot of MIGs...the problem was their cockpit layouts etc...making the flying difficult.



The agility comes if the F-7 knew of the threat, were its counter measures were activated, did the pilot knew of the incoming threat. 

And i highly doubt the BLA version of the story, had that been the case, they could have shot down many jets by now and even the wingman of the downed jet would have been targetted too as training flights get theit wingman with them on such routine flights.

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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am asking myself what can be more worse that PAF might find the need to hide than the story of the crash itself?



depends.. but its best we wait for any further reports before we indulge rumors and/or speculation too much.


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## Areesh

Harry Potter said:


> BLA do possess some SA-7 Grails according to Al Jazeera.


 


Peregrine said:


> Coming from a highly reliable source, *The plane was downed by rocket or some thing like that, the pilot had ejected safely but was shot dead.*. This is what his parents have been told. Who are the perpetrators? Can't say.


 


karan.1970 said:


> cr@p.. This is serious.. You mean BLA and TTP now have access to AA armaments ???


 


Oscar said:


> That is very disturbing if true.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the guesser.
> My message was possible PAF Air staff response. Not a tirade against anyone which is what you seem to be instigating.


 


Peregrine said:


> I am telling you, what i have been told, which is more authentic then the deductions of internet based forum's think-tanks. You are free to accept & believe whatever you like.


 


BATMAN said:


> War is finally shifting to its destined location Baluchistan.
> 
> Iran has once again become active in this region.
> 
> Bharti consulate in Zahedan Iran was the launch pad and operational headquarter of BLA for long time.



Three things.

1 Crash happened in Pishin district which is pushtoon majority district hence BLA is an extinct specie there. So it isn't BLA for sure.

2 TTP can't be blamed either since TTP isn't that strong in these northern Baluchistan districts. If TTP# can't shoot down PAF aircrafts in FATA then they can't shoot them in Pishin or any other district of Northern Baluchistan.

3 Height of the aircraft makes it extremely difficult for any rag tag terrorist to shoot down even a helicopter let alone an aircraft.

Please give your all "reliable sources" and "speculations" a break. They don't make sense.

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## Peregrine

Areesh said:


> Three things.
> 
> 1 Crash happened in Pishin district which is pushtoon majority district hence BLA is an extinct specie there. So it isn't BLA for sure.
> 
> 2 TTP can't be blamed either since TTP isn't that strong in these northern Baluchistan districts. If TTP# can't shoot down PAF aircrafts in FATA then they can't shoot them in Pishin or any other district of Northern Baluchistan.
> 
> 3 Height of the aircraft makes it extremely difficult for any rag tag terrorist to shoot down even a helicopter let alone an aircraft.
> 
> Please give your all "reliable sources" and "speculations" a break. They don't make sense.



So According to your logic the affected area needs to be the ghetto of terrorists to execute their plans..... Like New York was? or like Rawalpindi, and Islamabad are ?.......... Concentrate harder and you will catch the drift of my point.
Can u prove that the aircraft was flying at high altitude and not low? Or is it based on your assumption that, since they can go higher than helicopters so jets can't be shot down. WOW that makes a lot of sense, since you say it.
In a place like this defense forum, different people add to the discussions, what they think is authentic and appropriate according to their individual apprehensions. If that doesn't comport with your beliefs, doesn't mean that they have no credibility.

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## Safriz

Pashin is generally calm and safe,compared to other areas of Baluchistan,so theories of Pilot being killed after safely ejecting from aircraft are highly unlikly...
Ejection is not a guarantee of survival..There are so many factors...The speed at the time...Flying debris..Altitude...
Some experienced pilot can elaborate more on this....Now where is Chogy..

Here is a video of an earlier crash of F-7.....Ejection system looks up to date..so the plane is safe to fly.

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## Najam Khan

I am sorry to but the ejection story and BLA later killing him reminded me of _ Behind the enemy lines_. If there was any such report, 23 Sqn would have wiped the area...shooting down of a plane is not a simple matter, there was supposed to be a retaliation from other side too. 

As for the crash, it could be GLOC, disorientation or engine failure etc...jumping onto conclusions based on some UNKNOWN reports and just some blind shots needs rethinking.

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## ziaulislam

TTP..
funny..they cant even put down a simple armed drone ..and you think they can put down a fighter plane!!!

frankly what type of moderator he is?!!


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## Last Hope

@Najam. Exactly. They would find JDAMs and Cluster bombs raining on them.


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## Windjammer

We do love conspiracy theories, the sad fact is people tend to comment without any comprehension on the psyche of the PAF.
Losing an aircraft on own territory through hostile actions, wouldn't certainly be another day in the office for the boys.
The loss of a pilot is felt severely through the close knit community, and if there was any evidence of hostile action, the gloves would certainly come off.

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## Areesh

Peregrine said:


> So According to your logic the affected area needs to be the ghetto of terrorists to execute their plans..... Like New York was? or like Rawalpindi, and Islamabad are ?.......... Concentrate harder and you will catch the drift of my point.
> Can u prove that the aircraft was flying at high altitude and not low? Or is it based on your assumption that, since they can go higher than helicopters so jets can't be shot down. WOW that makes a lot of sense, since you say it.
> In a place like this defense forum, different people add to the discussions, what they think is authentic and appropriate according to their individual apprehensions. If that doesn't comport with your beliefs, doesn't mean that they have no credibility.



To believe in your story we need some proof or at least some news item. Till now I have no reason to believe in your "highly credible source". And about aircraft altitude the aircraft usually don't fly at such low altitude that they can be shot down easily by any militant. Even here in Karachi they don't fly at low altitudes. 

Anyways again I don't find any reason to believe in your story.


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## Dazzler

A simple yet unfortunate crash has become quite a rumor mill. I cant believe you guys making it look as of BLA or any terrorist organization has such capability. Even if they ever got hands on an SA-7 or 16, it takes years of training and practice to hit the target and even after that, chances of downing a chopper by a newbie are 30-40% at best, let alone a supersonic fighter! Please stop exulting rumors folks as we are already surrounded by Hyenas who are just waiting for the right time to act!!


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## Donatello

nabil_05 said:


> A simple yet unfortunate crash has become quite a rumor mill. I cant believe you guys making it look as of BLA or any terrorist organization has such capability. Even if they ever got hands on an SA-7 or 16, it takes years of training and practice to hit the target and even after that, chances of downing a chopper by a newbie are 30-40% at best, let alone a supersonic fighter! Please stop exulting rumors folks as we are already surrounded by Hyenas who are just waiting for the right time to act!!


.....yes true...but what i am more concerned about is some of the latest developments...

SAMs and MAN-Pads missing from libya....we all know CIA and MOSSAD were on the ground...and it would be wise to assume they took them for they have a history of channeling arms one way or the other (read Afghan war with soviets and how CIA channeled the weapons)....and then the US senate talking about Balochistan and aiding the BLA....worst case...CIA can give these terrorists.

I hope it doesn't happen and if we do find out...PAF bombs them to grave.


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## BATMAN

nabil_05 said:


> A simple yet unfortunate crash has become quite a rumor mill. I cant believe you guys making it look as of BLA or any terrorist organization has such capability. Even if they ever got hands on an SA-7 or 16, it takes years of training and practice to hit the target and even after that, chances of downing a chopper by a newbie are 30-40% at best, let alone a supersonic fighter! Please stop exulting rumors folks as we are already surrounded by Hyenas who are just waiting for the right time to act!!



We expect Indian army elements or elements from Northern alliance being trained in India for years, now armed with latest SAMS.


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## BATMAN

ziaulislam said:


> TTP..
> funny..they cant even put down a simple armed drone ..and you think they can put down a fighter plane!!!
> 
> frankly what type of moderator he is?!!



Armed drone are not killing TTP.

TTP was not a even a declared terrorist organisation until recently.


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## Dazzler

Folks, further discussion will lead this thread to drift. The thing is that though we are being encircled but this particular incident was NOT a SAM hit. Period.

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## Manticore

Another sad news coming in recent months -- may GOD bless the soul and grant strength to the family
amen


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## Alphacharlie

blackops said:


> sir can a stinger missile bring down an f7 at 20000 height



Please be infomred FIM-92 (Batch 3 series) is ineffective over 10,000 Feet.

Its effective rage is below 9200 Feet in normal atmosphere, where as in rarified heigts it can reach upto 10,000 Feet


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## ziaulislam

nabil_05 said:


> Folks, further discussion will lead this thread to drift. The thing is that though we are being encircled but this particular incident was NOT a SAM hit. Period.


*well the claim did came from a moderator thats why its taken so seriously by some members*


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## Irfan Baloch

ziaulislam said:


> *well the claim did came from a moderator thats why its taken so seriously by some members*



what moderator?

sorry I missed that or you misunderstood


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## SQ8

ziaulislam said:


> *well the claim did came from a moderator thats why its taken so seriously by some members*



Which moderator?


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## untitled

Irfan Baloch said:


> what moderator?
> 
> sorry I missed that or you misunderstood


 


Oscar said:


> Which moderator?



I think he meant a senior member


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## Alphacharlie

My Deep Condolenses to the Family


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## Safriz

Mirage-V crashed near Hub Karachi...It was from masroor base..Pilot is safe.


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## WAQAS119

A Mirage V has been crashed. Breaking News


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## zavis2003

Iterition rate of mirages and F7s are so much if it happens on such rate we would need not to replace them with jf17s as they would be disappear from story by themselves................................ a bad news and lose for pakistan but good is that pilot is saved , thank you ejection seat


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## regular

Another bad newz!!....its so sad to hear that we loosing our fighter jets.....but its good that the pilot ejected successfully/safely.......


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## Safriz

already posted in the sticky thread..


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## Abingdonboy

Good news the pilot is safe.


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## killerx

good news the pilot is safe mirages are old craps now


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## Edevelop

wtf is going on in Pakistani air space?


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## Areesh

Good thing is pilot is safe. Who cares about those obsolete aircraft.


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## MJaa

*Pakistani Mirage V Fighter Jet Crashes in Sindh*


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## ziaulislam

http://i1.tribune.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/377430-MirageAFP-1336751731-183-640x480.jpg


An aircraft of the Pakistan air force (PAF) crashed near Sonmiani region of Balochistan on Friday.

According to an official PAF release, a Mirage fighter aircraft was on a routine training mission when it crashed.

The release said that the pilot had survived the crash and was safe. There was no mention of any losses on the ground.

The PAF operates a fleet of the French built Mirage III and Mirage 5 aircrafts procured between 1968 and 2000. Together, it constitutes a major part of the PAF arsenal after the Chinese built variations of the F-7. The Mirage fleet has suffered a total of seven crashes since their induction into the PAF.

Pakistan has been trying the phase out the older generations of its Mirage fleet with the newer JF-17 aircrafts, jointly developed with China.

PAF fighter aircraft crashes near Sonmiani &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## Safriz

7 crashes in 40 years is very good record


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## Abu Zolfiqar

most importantly, PILOT is safe. 

the Mirage aircrafts are steadily planned for being phased out and moth-balled. They've served the PAF well, but as we've seen in past few years there have been mis-haps which are confirming that some of these aircrafts are no longer air-worthy. 

i would imagine fewer flying hours and routine training missions are being carried out on these Mirages (at least the non-Rose versions). Maybe someone more knowledgable can confirm.

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## Windjammer

Safriz said:


> 7 crashes in 40 years is very good record



That information is incorrect.


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## Safriz

Windjammer said:


> That information is incorrect.



whats the correct information?


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## Windjammer

Safriz said:


> whats the correct information?



I'll come back on that but an Indian source claims that PAF has lost around 60 Mirages in it's service history.


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## no_koadsheding_plz

its very risky to continue using these obsolete fighters. their operation till 2015 is rather over stretched.. these toys needs to be grounded and given to academics to play with and learn on .

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## mike bennett

Dear Forum Members,
Can anyone confirm which ejection seat is installed in Pakistan Mirage V's
Are they
Martin-Baker PRM-4s or PRM-6s


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## umair shah

i think roughly b/w 30~40 mirages


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## Safriz

no_koadsheding_plz said:


> its very risky to continue using these obsolete fighters. their operation till 2015 is rather over stretched.. these toys needs to be grounded and given to academics to play with and learn on .



Pakistan can rebuild mirages and are quite good at that,and thats why the service life of these aircrafts has been extended..
Plus the loss has nowhere been near to Indian Mig losses.


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## Jango

Isn't there a firing range in Sonmiani?

Maybe a firing exercise gone wrong?


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## fatman17

probably a from the maritime strike squadron - thank god the pilots safe


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## karan.1970

Safriz said:


> Pakistan can rebuild mirages and are quite good at that,and thats why the service life of these aircrafts has been extended..
> *Plus the loss has nowhere been near to Indian Mig losses*.



LOL... And then you say Indians are obsessed with Pakistan...

@topic.. Great news that pilot is safe...

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## Meejee

Any info on the name of the pilot?


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## ice_man

hell we could be flying spitfires now they are as prone to crashes as these obselete mirages!!!! 40 year old airframes still pulling Gs is insane! they have truly become the flying coffin of our airforce!


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## alibaz

Very sad but thank God pilot is safe.


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## Nishan_101

ice_man said:


> hell we could be flying spitfires now they are as prone to crashes as these obselete mirages!!!! 40 year old airframes still pulling Gs is insane! they have truly become the flying coffin of our airforce!


 
Although My and everyone else wish was that PAC would have look more towards JF-17 by making it more capable with CAC with composites, Retractable In-Flight refueling Probe(that can be developed by our own engineers if we tried it), RD-93Bs, FLIR and IRST(which is present) along with a dual seater for the JF-17 Block-Is(on PT-06). Then producing the JF-17 Block-Is in 110 and about 50-70 Dual seat for CCS as AJTs.

This will going to replace the Mirages and then A-5Cs could be replaced at a later date.


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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> probably a from the maritime strike squadron - thank god the pilots safe



The unit belonged to number 8 squadron 'Haiders', Southern Air Command, No. 32 (Fighter Ground Attack) Wing.


----------



## Jango

Was it on an exercise? Considering it was at Somniani.


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## Rahil khan

ice_man said:


> hell we could be flying spitfires now they are as prone to crashes as these obselete mirages!!!! 40 year old airframes still pulling Gs is insane! they have truly become the flying coffin of our airforce!


Sir may be i am wrong but i have read somewhere that the Mirages acquired by PAF in late 60s and 70s are are gradually phased out and air frame from 80s are still in service. Can anybody confirm that?


----------



## mike bennett

Dear Forum Members,
I've updated the PAF Mirage losses at

Chronological Listing of Pakista

The list still needs lots of information to make it complete. Any help really appreciated, especially pilot names and photos, Squadron Badges (hi-res scans), aircraft info - etc.
Are any of the Forum Members former, current Mirage pilots, did any eject?

With respect
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk


----------



## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> I'll come back on that but an Indian source claims that PAF has lost around 60 Mirages in it's service history.



actually this number is correct.
PAF has lost over 60 Mirages since its introduction, but this also includes wartime losses.


----------



## Last Hope

mike bennett said:


> Dear Forum Members,
> I've updated the PAF Mirage losses at
> 
> Chronological Listing of Pakista
> 
> The list still needs lots of information to make it complete. Any help really appreciated, especially pilot names and photos, Squadron Badges (hi-res scans), aircraft info - etc.
> Are any of the Forum Members former, current Mirage pilots, did any eject?
> 
> With respect
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk



Hey Mike. Long time. I can provide you with some of the things. Got the squadron batches, inbox me on my personal email and we will discuss in detail.


----------



## mike bennett

Hi,
Thanks for the offer of help. The project continues slowly. Never enough hours in he day..

We can correspond via my email at mbenshar@aol.com
Best regards
Mike


----------



## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> actually this number is correct.
> PAF has lost over 60 Mirages since its introduction, but this also includes wartime losses.



how. pl explain your theory year-wise. there were no losses of mirages in the 71 conflict. read kaiser tufails analysis on this subject.



mike bennett said:


> Dear Forum Members,
> I've updated the PAF Mirage losses at
> 
> Chronological Listing of Pakista
> 
> The list still needs lots of information to make it complete. Any help really appreciated, especially pilot names and photos, Squadron Badges (hi-res scans), aircraft info - etc.
> Are any of the Forum Members former, current Mirage pilots, did any eject?
> 
> With respect
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk



it was a mirage 5 EF not a MPA. so it does not belong to the maritime strike squadron.


----------



## karan.1970

Two PAF jets collide mid-air; pilots dead | DAWN.COM

NOWSHERA, May 17: Two aircraft of Pakistan Air Force collided mid-air on Thursday killing the four pilots, officials said.

Eight civilians were injured when the wreckage of planes fell on houses in Rashakai area of Nowshera district.

Sources said that two Mushshak planes were on routine training mission when they collided shortly after 10am and crashed into two houses near the PAF Academy Risalpur. Squadron Leaders Masood, Zegham Ali, Muazzam and Flight Lieutenant Mustafa Muazzam were killed.

The wreckage of one aircraft fell on the house of Niaz Muhammad, injuring four people. They were taken to Abdul Wali Khan Medical Complex, Mardan in serious condition.

The walls and roofs of the houses were damaged and wreckage of the aircraft lay strewn over a large area.

Debris of the other plane fell on the house of one Afsar Ali, injuring a woman and three children. They were shifted to DHQ Hospital Nowshera. The boundary wall and a room of the house were damaged.

Namaz-i-Janaza of the pilots was offered at the PAF Academy.

Confirming the incident, a PAF spokesman said a board of inquiry had been ordered by the air headquarters to ascertain the cause of the accident.

The PAF Academy Risalpur suspended training flights for 24 hours in honour of the pilots.

*AFP adds: It was the sixth PAF plane crash in the past seven months and the second in a week, raising concern over the safety of its largely Chinese and locally-made fleet.
*

Two Pakistan Air Force trainer aircraft collided mid-air. Four pilots were killed, two were trainee pilots and two were instructors, district police officer Mohammad Hussain said.


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## AHMED85

What was the main reason of this crash... any authentic report


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## Jango

I think you can un-bold the bolded part. Because there was no safety issue with the plane.

A close formation maneuver went wrong, for XYZ reasons. Not the plane.

And the Mirage crashed before this, Not a Chinese aircraft, so I would say kind of poor journalism.

RIP to the pilots. THere was a young guy as well, prayers for the shuhadas.


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## Jango

I think you can un-bold the bolded part. Because there was no safety issue with the plane.

A close formation maneuver went wrong, for XYZ reasons. Not the plane.

And the Mirage crashed before this, Not a Chinese aircraft, so I would say kind of poor journalism.

RIP to the pilots. THere was a young guy as well, prayers for the shuhadas.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Why they collided each other?? Were they shaking hands in a parrallel a plane?? Can't they even see the parallel plane or in front of them ?? Looks like this incident was avoidable..
RIP to the dead


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## ziaulislam

idiotic not poor journalism! complete lack of any knowledge regarding defence issues i wounder how can they call them selves even journalist..


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## Jango

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Why they collided each other?? Were they shaking hands in a parrallel a plane?? Can't they even see the parallel plane or in front of them ?? Looks like this incident was avoidable..
> RIP to the dead



They were flying close formations, and their wings caught eachother.

Eye-witness on one TV channel said that both planes came at an angle, not parallel.


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## SQ8

It is rather unfortunate since the student pilots had good instructors with them, one of them was married with wife and kids.
While pilot error cannot be ruled out, it may even be a fault with the aircraft.. since there have been reports of sudden rudder malfunctions with the more aged Mushaks. 

Bachelor pilots are known to be a little more carefree and risk takers and get involved in impromptu aerobatics.
but when these same pilots get married, they are extremely cautious and by the book. Both instructors were mature enough to know where to draw the line, so onus of the investigation will focus on the aircraft and the student pilots.


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## Imran Khan

whatever happen is so sad PAF now make more code of conducts for avoid such incidents in future .

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## Patriot

Can't believe how stupid DAWN journalist is - We should bombard them with emails.Mirage was not Chinese and these two did not crash due to technical fault.Likely to be user error as both planes colided.

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## Imran Khan

Patriot said:


> Can't believe how stupid DAWN journalist is - We should bombard them with emails.Mirage was not Chinese and these two did not crash due to technical fault.Likely to be user error as both planes colided.



nope just send him two links one google and other wiki he need them badly


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## Windjammer

Remember these basic trainers are light and no bigger than a family saloon, a sudden gust of wind can also deviate their flight path.

I believe one of the student pilot was related to the current Air Directorate A/C Anis Mirza.

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## fatman17

very sad news esp the loss of 4 pilots.RIP

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## Last Hope

Visual clips.

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## Jango

Three pilots were Sqd Leaders.


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## SSGPA1

May Allah accept their shahadats. According to a blog:

_Sqn Ldr Masood, Sqn Ldr Zaigham, Sqn Ldr Moazzam and Flt Lt Mustafa martyred today (May 17, 2012) when two Mushshak training aircraft collided in mid-air and fell on nearby houses in the Risalpur area of Nowshehra. _

PAKISTAN DEFENCE NEWS BLOG: Two Mushak aircrafts of PAF crash in Nowshera; 4 pilots martyred


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## Meejee

Patriot said:


> Can't believe how stupid DAWN journalist is - We should bombard them with emails.Mirage was not Chinese and these two did not crash due to technical fault.Likely to be user error as both planes colided.



It's not just DAWN, it's all the journalists community. They are indulging in sensationalism more than the accuracy/authenticity of the report (which is a shame)

The loss of life in the incident is a real shame. May Allah give the family members of the "Shaheeds" patience and perseverence AAMIN.


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## Najam Khan

The unfortunate mid-air collision occurred during landing. Wings of both aircraft collided resulting loss of control of the aircraft. The most sad part is that all the pilots involved were not rookies, they were the future of PAF. Both aircraft belonged to Fighter Instructor School (FIS), which runs a 22 week course on Mushshak and T-37s. God bless the departed souls.Amen.

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## Jango

Najam Khan said:


> The unfortunate mid-air collision occurred during landing. Wings of both aircraft collided resulting loss of control of the aircraft. The most sad part is that all the pilots involved were not rookies, they were the future of PAF. Both aircraft belonged to Fighter Instructor School (FIS), which runs a 22 week course on Mushshak and T-37s. God bless the departed souls.Amen.



Landing or On finals?

FIS explains three sqd ldrs.


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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> Landing or On finals?
> 
> FIS explains three sqd ldrs.



Most likely on base leg.. that would explain the crash site..
But only the investigation would reveal all the details.


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## karan.1970

Najam Khan said:


> The unfortunate mid-air collision occurred during landing. Wings of both aircraft collided resulting loss of control of the aircraft. The most sad part is that all the pilots involved were not rookies, they were the future of PAF. Both aircraft belonged to Fighter Instructor School (FIS), which runs a 22 week course on Mushshak and T-37s. God bless the departed souls.Amen.



Is this the school for training the instructors ????


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## SQ8

karan.1970 said:


> Is this the school for training the instructors ????



Yes.
Trains instructors for both Basic and Advanced courses.

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## newdelhinsa

How much could be the velocity of both planes while ~ *landing*. I think the injuries couldn't have been due to high velocity trauma but other reasons like fire etc. 

RIP


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## Bratva

In last 7 crashes, 5 Squadron leaders have been dead. 1 in JF-17, 1 In Turkey T-37 crash, 3 in this incident. It's a worrisome fact and may Allah bless all souls.


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## Jango

newdelhinsa said:


> How much could be the velocity of both planes while ~ *landing*. I think the injuries couldn't have been due to high velocity trauma but other reasons like fire etc.
> 
> RIP



It wasn't quite landing, as in near to the ground, from what I have read.

And the debris did look really messed up, fire might have erupted by the looks of the debris.

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## Rahil khan

Heart breaking incident. Loss of three Squadron Leaders is massive. Rest in Peace our heroes.


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## Bratva

Squadron Leader Zaigham Abbas who died in this accident

Removed on request.

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## umair shah

mafiya said:


> Squadron Leader Zaigham Abbas who died in this accident


 
R.I.P..........


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## epinephrine

initial unofficial reports say that it was totally pilot error.eye witnesses say that it seemed that the pilots were making fun in the air and then suddenly their wings collided.the COs at risalpur will be having tough time ahead.


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## SQ8

epinephrine said:


> initial unofficial reports say that it was totally pilot error.eye witnesses say that it seemed that the pilots were making fun in the air and then suddenly their wings collided.the COs at risalpur will be having tough time ahead.



Unsubstantiated at this point.


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## Jango

Oscar said:


> Unsubstantiated at this point.



The eye-witness reports are confusing a bit.

Although these kind of incidents have happened in the past (You'd be surprised to hear if you haven't already), I doubt this would have been the case. Considering that there were three Sqd Ldrs and 2 of them were acting as instructors.


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## epinephrine

even some civilians even say that we were thinking that this is how pilots burn costly fuel .there was gross violations of SOP


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## MilSpec

Very sorry to hear about 4 pilots loosing their lives, my condolences to PAF and their families. RIP


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## Haseebullah

epinephrine said:


> even some civilians even say that we were thinking that this is how pilots burn costly fuel .there was gross violations of SOP


Funny how the civilians knew whether the pilots were practicing maneuvers or burning fuel.They must be trained in aviation maneuvers and would be sitting quite to observe the complete maneuver to deem it a waste of fuel.Take your bullcrap somewhere else and respect the one's who were martyred.

May their souls rest in peace.

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## Donatello

PAF seriously needs to make it's students and instructors adhere to guidelines.

This brings back to my memory, that instructor, Viper, from Top Gun film, in which he tells Maverick that he should not have gone below the deck, (10,000 ft minimum engagement altitude)

Flying an aircraft like Mushak might be fun, but it is way under powered for any of your jingo-istic stuff. I hope investigations reveal what went wrong, and that in future this sad loss of life can be spared.


RIP.

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## Bratva

Donatello said:


> PAF seriously needs to make it's students and instructors adhere to guidelines.
> 
> This brings back to my memory, that instructor, Viper, from Top Gun film, in which he tells Maverick that he should not have gone below the deck, (10,000 ft minimum engagement altitude)
> 
> Flying an aircraft like Mushak might be fun, but it is way under powered for any of your jingo-istic stuff.* I hope investigations reveal what went wrong*, and that in future this sad loss of life can be spared.
> 
> 
> RIP.



Why are you expecting such a thing from PAF?


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## Peregrine

mafiya said:


> Why are you expecting such a thing from PAF?


In that case, the relatives of those civilian victims should sue PAF.


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## mdcp

Our wishes are with the families of those who lost their lives
Its sad incident and show clear negligence, such a big sky and they crash each other
We should take extra care in the future cuz we already in crisis and must look after our national assets and make sure these not abused


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## newdelhinsa

Please don't put family pictures of these brave men it numbs my brain, seriously. 

Regards


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## Najam Khan

mdcp said:


> Our wishes are with the families of those who lost their lives
> *Its sad incident and show clear negligence, such a big sky and they crash each other*
> We should take extra care in the future cuz we already in crisis and must look after our national assets and make sure these not abused


Its no way negligence. You can call it bad luck and slight miscalculation. The place where is crashed is near the start/edge of Nowshera...which comes directly in the path of runway. Wing-Wing close formations are naturally risky with no chances of error, add the landing case as well and you will get your answer.

The last mid-air collision of PAF aircraft happened in 2002, when two F-7PG collided during Hi-G maneuvering..luckily both ejected.


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## VelocuR

These junks planes like F-7PG or A5s must retire immediately and burn them. 

I will decide on Super Mushak _depend on their performances and crash history. _


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## fatman17

Date Posted: 17-May-2012 

Pakistan suffers second crash in a week

James Hardy - Asia-Pacific Editor - London

Two Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Super Mushshak MFI-17 basic trainer aircraft crashed on 17 May, killing two trainee pilots and two instructors. 

Police said the two aircraft collided in midair before crashing in the Rashkai area, 160 km northwest of Islamabad. It was the sixth PAF crash in seven months and the second in a week: a Dassault Mirage 5 crashed in the southern coastal town of Sonmiani on 11 May shortly after taking off from Masroor Air Force Base in Karachi for a routine training flight. The pilot ejected safely and was not hurt. 

The 17 May crash likely involved personnel from one of the two Primary Flying Training Squadrons based at Risalpur air base, which is home to the Pakistan Air Force Academy. PAF pilots begin training on the two-seat Mushshak or Super Mushshak, which is a licence-built version of the Saab MFI-17 Supporter. 
_
sounds like a 'CD goof up'.!!!_


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## epinephrine

Haseebullah said:


> Funny how the civilians knew whether the pilots were practicing maneuvers or burning fuel.They must be trained in aviation maneuvers and would be sitting quite to observe the complete maneuver to deem it a waste of fuel.Take your bullcrap somewhere else and respect the one's who were martyred.
> 
> May their souls rest in peace.


 
loss of 4 pilots n 2 air crafts is not a small thing n atleast in this case PAF cant blame "tech fault".
this incident is an eye opener for the rest of the pilots.if i jump from roof n die ofcourse people will blame me for this


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## Last Hope

RaptorRX707 said:


> These junks planes like F-7PG or A5s must retire immediately and burn them.
> 
> I will decide on Super Mushak _depend on their performances and crash history. _



Stop with the arrogance. A-5s are retired years ago. As for F-7PG, they still are in a good condition, F-7P are not. 
If PAF retires with Super Mushak, what do you expect PAF to adopt? L-15 or PC-9?


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## VCheng

My salute to the fallen pilots, and my condolences to their families.


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## usman_habibsdk

How Can I post a new thread???? plz guide


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## Edevelop

Last Hope said:


> Stop with the arrogance. A-5s are retired years ago. *As for F-7PG, they still are in a good condition, F-7P are not. *
> If PAF retires with Super Mushak, what do you expect PAF to adopt? L-15 or PC-9?



But don't we have only 8 F-7PG that were made in 2000s and 170+ old F-7P built in the 80s? What good can this non-BVR capable fighter jet offer?
I think we should retire all the F-7 as they are useless. If we are worried about trainers then maybe the PGs can be used as one...


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## Jango

cb4 said:


> But don't we have only 8 F-7PG that were made in 2000s and 170+ old F-7P built in the 80s? What good can this non-BVR capable fighter jet offer?
> I think we should retire all the F-7 as they are useless. If we are worried about trainers then maybe the PGs can be used as one...



JF-17 will phase them out, but *gradually*.

You just don't decide one day, okay retire them all, and them store them!



mafiya said:


> Why are you expecting such a thing from PAF?



PAF and PAA investigations always conclude.

It's another thing if they don't come in public.


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## nomi007

is there is any plan of making or buying world class trainers aircrafts for paf
like KAI Kt-1


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## SSGPA1

*Star child*

Squadron Leader Muazzam Ali Khawar was among the four Pakistan Air Force pilots who died in a fatal mid-air collision of two aircraft near the Rashkai area on Thursday. It was the sixth Pakistan Air Force crash in seven months and the second in a week, according to reports. 

&#8220;You are star child,&#8221; I told him, referring to the textbook lesson Mr Noonari had taught in class that day.

Read more here:

Star child | DAWN.COM


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## epinephrine

nomi007 said:


> is there is any plan of making or buying world class trainers aircrafts for paf
> like KAI Kt-1



there is not much wrong with the training aircrafts at PAF academy.their safety record is quite satisfactory.T37 r old but still safer than F-7 n mirage.super mushshak n K8P are gud aircrafts for primary and basic flying respectively.


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## MastanKhan

Najam Khan said:


> Its no way negligence. You can call it bad luck and slight miscalculation. The place where is crashed is near the start/edge of Nowshera...which comes directly in the path of runway. Wing-Wing close formations are naturally risky with no chances of error, add the landing case as well and you will get your answer.
> 
> The last mid-air collision of PAF aircraft happened in 2002, when two F-7PG collided during Hi-G maneuvering..luckily both ejected.



Hi,

There is nothing common in these two collision----except for carelessness and not following the procedure----.

There were 3 very experienced flyers in these two aircraft----. They did something that was not supposed to be done---they created---or one of the pilots created a scenario that should not have been ---which caused the accident.

I believe it was 1980-----Multan---my house is right next to the airport east sside---on the northern end of the runway---two traine airplanes take off from the air port----one pilot starts horse playing----started flying real close to the tail of the plane in the front---ended up chopping the tail---the plane in the front went head down---fell on a house killed the pilot and the trained----.

The real tragedy in this accident was that the culprit was alive--but the biggest tragedy was---the house it fell on---two girls ofmarriage age---all their dowries were burnt---did they get their money---I don't know----.

But propeller driven plane---colliding in mid air----that is negligence----as someone mentioned a news item here---that one of the planes came from the side to position itself next to the other and thus collided---if that was the observation----then thatmay be the truth----.

Fighter jocks do that kind of stuff---but they don't understand when it fails with other air craft---prop trainers are not as agile and move around a the fighter aircraft.

If there were pure trainees in these aircraft---it would be lack of kknowledge----with these senior pilots in their---there was 'horse play' involved----.

As usual----it will be brushed under the rug.


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## Najam Khan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is nothing common in these two collision----except for carelessness and not following the procedure----.
> 
> *There were 3 very experienced flyers in these two aircraft----. They did something that was not supposed to be done---they created---or one of the pilots created a
> 
> scenario that should not have been ---which caused the accident.*
> 
> ................
> 
> Fighter jocks do that kind of stuff---but they don't understand when it fails with other air craft---prop trainers are not as agile and move around a the fighter
> 
> aircraft.
> 
> *If there were pure trainees in these aircraft---it would be lack of kknowledge----with these senior pilots in their---there was 'horse play' involved----.*
> 
> As usual----it will be brushed under the rug.


 
I am sorry to say sir but sitting behind a computer and speculating things is an easy job. Would you mind sharing the reasons behind you analysis? What knowledge you have about flying in FIS?, and what merits you think are set for pilots who take course at FIS and those who teach them the basic and advance instructor lessons?

Its really lame to call a tragic mid-air collision a result of 'horse play', the scenario which you believe was created by one of the pilots (even *IF* its true) isn't something out of the world. Every Air Force around the world practice dual landings and takeoffs, mistakes and miscalculation happen everyday everywhere...the may not result into an accident each time, but does that mean pilots don't take their job seriously?

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## MastanKhan

Najam Khan said:


> I am sorry to say sir but sitting behind a computer and speculating things is an easy job. Would you mind sharing the reasons behind you analysis? What knowledge you have about flying in FIS?, and what merits you think are set for pilots who take course at FIS and those who teach them the basic and advance instructor lessons?
> 
> Its really lame to call a tragic mid-air collision a result of 'horse play', the scenario which you believe was created by one of the pilots (even *IF* its true) isn't something out of the world. Every Air Force around the world practice dual landings and takeoffs, mistakes and miscalculation happen everyday everywhere...the may not result into an accident each time, but does that mean pilots don't take their job seriously?



Buddy--,

Stop this B S about my sitting behind a computer and saying what I do----. When you don't understand something---or it goes against your belief and hurts you ego---it becomes sitting behind the computer----. 


And why are you sorry about saying it---because you are not confident about what you want to say---.

3 sdrn ldrs and 1 flying officer in two prop driven planes---were they sqdrn's of fighter aircraft---or were they air force ground or maintenance----and why were 2 sqdrn ldrs in one aircraft----. Their background is extremely crucial to what happened---and if they were fighter jocks----it is very obvious---if the news reporter is right that one of the plane was closing in to make formation---obviuosly it kept on slipping and sliding---.

We would also need to know what the experience was of those 4 officers in flying those planes----. Had they been regular Mushak flyers---ie----was it their permanent job flying mushaks before this accident or were they flying other kinds of aircraft---.

Next time you address me---please keep in mind---I am not a stupid young pakistani kid who just wants to talk---I am an experienced senior citizen---thank you.

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## ziaulislam

mastan sahab..it wasnt a regular flight, it was formation. in regular flight you argument would be right but in formation exercises these things can happen.

i dont understand why rockie pilots do formations as mentioned here though.


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## kewell333

Really deep sorrow for the Pilots, R I P

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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> mastan sahab..it wasnt a regular flight, it was formation. in regular flight you argument would be right but in formation exercises these things can happen.
> 
> i dont understand why rockie pilots do formations as mentioned here though.



My good man,

The most important question here is---were these full time mushak pilots or fighter aircraft pilots or other aircraft pilots---their primary full time job is the most important factor over here in ascertaining what happened----. Were they making a formation as the news reporter stated from eye witness accoutns ( am I correct on that )----if they were---then the prior questions are extremely important----what was their primary job----.

Bottomline---what were two sqdrn ldrs doing flying in mushak and a sqdrn ldr and a 'flying officer in another plane----what was the purpose of these highly trained officers in a mushak----. That is something that needs to be questioned----. If it was formation flying---what were they training for----.


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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> My good man,
> 
> The most important question here is---were these full time mushak pilots or fighter aircraft pilots or other aircraft pilots---their primary full time job is the most important factor over here in ascertaining what happened----. Were they making a formation as the news reporter stated from eye witness accoutns ( am I correct on that )----if they were---then the prior questions are extremely important----what was their primary job----.
> 
> Bottomline---what were two sqdrn ldrs doing flying in mushak and a sqdrn ldr and a 'flying officer in another plane----what was the purpose of these highly trained officers in a mushak----. *That is something that needs to be questioned----. If it was formation flying---what were they training for----*.



Perhaps if you showed flexibility you would like to learn that as part of the FIS(fighter instructor School) curriculum includes training these senior pilots to become flight instructors for cadets and other junior pilots. 
Formation flying is an important aspect of fighter flying since and it is taught to all PAF pilots from the beginning of their careers and refreshed for them throughout their tenure. 
The FIS teaches and refreshes this skill for all future instructor pilots and makes sure they are proficient at maintaining precise formation manoeuvres in all aircraft they will be teaching in as instructors at Risalpur. At FIS, you will see flt lt and sometimes even Sq Ldrs become students once again as they are taught by the instructors at FIS on become future instructors at Risalpur or Mianwali.
This includes the Super Mushak, the T-37..and the K-8 Karokaram. 
It is practised again and again so that when these new instructors start teaching fresh cadets they are giving the finest example for those new nuggets to follow.

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## epinephrine

MastanKhan said:


> Buddy--,
> 
> Stop this B S about my sitting behind a computer and saying what I do----. When you don't understand something---or it goes against your belief and hurts you ego---it becomes sitting behind the computer----.
> 
> 
> And why are you sorry about saying it---because you are not confident about what you want to say---.
> 
> 3 sdrn ldrs and 1 flying officer in two prop driven planes---were they sqdrn's of fighter aircraft---or were they air force ground or maintenance----and why were 2 sqdrn ldrs in one aircraft----. Their background is extremely crucial to what happened---and if they were fighter jocks----it is very obvious---if the news reporter is right that one of the plane was closing in to make formation---obviuosly it kept on slipping and sliding---.
> 
> We would also need to know what the experience was of those 4 officers in flying those planes----. Had they been regular Mushak flyers---ie----was it their permanent job flying mushaks before this accident or were they flying other kinds of aircraft---.
> 
> Next time you address me---please keep in mind---I am not a stupid young pakistani kid who just wants to talk---I am an experienced senior citizen---thank you.




sorry to say sir but u dont seem to be."accident ho gia ab kia karain?kabar say nikal k phansi day din unhain??mistakes happen in every field.it was a pilot error and unfortunately they died.investigations will be done and pilots will be ordered to strictly adhere to the SOP.ur behaviour is similar to that of JUI which urged for inquiry after the JFT crash. so the jahil mullahs wanted to know abt the crash


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## MastanKhan

epinephrine said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> sorry to say sir but u dont seem to be."accident ho gia ab kia karain?kabar say nikal k phansi day din unhain??mistakes happen in every field.it was a pilot error and unfortunately they died.investigations will be done and pilots will be ordered to strictly adhere to the SOP.ur behaviour is similar to that of JUI which urged for inquiry after the JFT crash. so the jahil mullahs wanted to know abt the crash



Sir,

And your behaviour as usual is that of atypical pakistani----there is a problem---now hide your head somewhere and not confront the issue----because of your embarrassment.

Young man---that is what is done---after accident---you really are digging into the grave---sorting out evidence---and then you will hang the blame on the culprit---basically hanging him afterwards---.

Didn't it take over a year to hang the senior PILOT of the air blue accident----of negligence and of dereliction of duty.

That is what happens after the accidents.


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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> And your behaviour as usual is that of atypical pakistani----there is a problem---now hide your head somewhere and not confront the issue----because of your embarrassment.
> 
> Young man---that is what is done---after accident---you really are digging into the grave---sorting out evidence---and then you will hang the blame on the culprit---basically hanging him afterwards---.
> 
> *Didn't it take over a year to hang the senior PILOT of the air blue accident----of negligence and of dereliction of duty.*
> 
> That is what happens after the accidents.



But no action was taken to force a change the attitude of such "old men" and their stubbornness about always being right and not regarding their juniors as qualified as well.
Had the man paid even a tiny bit of attention to his co-pilot(who may not have had the years of experience he had but was in his own right an excellent pilot and an ex-TOP GUN of the PAF).. a lot of families would still have their dear ones with them..but his ego prevailed and led many to their death. 
Nothing has been done to alleviate that mentality.

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## razgriz19

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is nothing common in these two collision----except for carelessness and not following the procedure----.
> 
> There were 3 very experienced flyers in these two aircraft----. They did something that was not supposed to be done---they created---or one of the pilots created a scenario that should not have been ---which caused the accident.
> 
> I believe it was 1980-----Multan---my house is right next to the airport east sside---on the northern end of the runway---two traine airplanes take off from the air port----one pilot starts horse playing----started flying real close to the tail of the plane in the front---ended up chopping the tail---the plane in the front went head down---fell on a house killed the pilot and the trained----.
> 
> The real tragedy in this accident was that the culprit was alive--but the biggest tragedy was---the house it fell on---two girls ofmarriage age---all their dowries were burnt---did they get their money---I don't know----.
> 
> But propeller driven plane---colliding in mid air----that is negligence----as someone mentioned a news item here---that one of the planes came from the side to position itself next to the other and thus collided---if that was the observation----then thatmay be the truth----.
> 
> Fighter jocks do that kind of stuff---but they don't understand when it fails with other air craft---prop trainers are not as agile and move around a the fighter aircraft.
> 
> If there were pure trainees in these aircraft---it would be lack of kknowledge----with these senior pilots in their---there was 'horse play' involved----.
> 
> As usual----it will be brushed under the rug.



WOW aren't you very quick on jumping to conclusions!


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## Bratva

razgriz19 said:


> WOW aren't you very quick on jumping to conclusions!



Because of his so called experience.


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## Najam Khan

MastanKhan said:


> Buddy--,
> 
> Stop this B S about my sitting behind a computer and saying what I do----. When you don't understand something---or it goes against your belief and hurts you ego---it becomes sitting behind the computer----.
> 
> 
> And why are you sorry about saying it---because you are not confident about what you want to say---.
> 
> 3 sdrn ldrs and 1 flying officer in two prop driven planes---were they sqdrn's of fighter aircraft---or were they air force ground or maintenance----and why were 2 sqdrn ldrs in one aircraft----. Their background is extremely crucial to what happened---and if they were fighter jocks----it is very obvious---if the news reporter is right that one of the plane was closing in to make formation---obviuosly it kept on slipping and sliding---.
> 
> We would also need to know what the experience was of those 4 officers in flying those planes----. Had they been regular Mushak flyers---ie----was it their permanent job flying mushaks before this accident or were they flying other kinds of aircraft---.
> 
> Next time you address me---please keep in mind---I am not a stupid young pakistani kid who just wants to talk---I am an experienced senior citizen---thank you.




Sir firstly if you want a healthy debate, leave this arrogant tone aside and talk objectively. Nobody cares what you are assuming from a selection words, you (and me just like others) are here to post you views on the topics, you don't need to educate me about posting.

Coming back to the original discussion. This is not about ego or you going against my believes. *My basic question (which you trickily didn't replied) was under what knowledge,experience and merits you are accusing pilots of this so called 'horse play'?*

You quickly skipped the questions I asked about your knowledge of FIS. You have given a false hypothesis that *IF* 3 Sqn Ldrs and 1 senior Flt Lt is involved in an accident then it means they have lack of experience, lack of training or that means they were just playing around...showing their flying guts to each other? I hope I'm not getting you wrong here?

The FIS question I asked in my earlier post has most of the answers of this discussion. Pilots from PAF/PA/PN or several other countries join FIS to learn basics lessons required for Qualified Fighter Instructor (QFI). Flt Lt and Sqn Ldrs join this course. Lessons about aerodynamics, engine,airmanship, meteorology and navigation are taught...those who pass the course return back to their respective squadrons as QFIs.

Everything at FIS is on a serious note. No body has any spare time and intentions to show his guts to each other.

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## epinephrine

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> And your behaviour as usual is that of atypical pakistani----there is a problem---now hide your head somewhere and not confront the issue----because of your embarrassment.
> 
> Young man---that is what is done---after accident---you really are digging into the grave---sorting out evidence---and then you will hang the blame on the culprit---basically hanging him afterwards---.
> 
> Didn't it take over a year to hang the senior PILOT of the air blue accident----of negligence and of dereliction of duty.
> 
> That is what happens after the accidents.



investigation is already being carried out.its PAF not some bloody civil organization.action will also be taken i m sure.wat i m saying is that PAF is under no compulsion to publicize the result of inquiry report to low IQ politicians n media people or to some mr.mastan khan or epinephrine.wat needs to be done will be done i m sure.u can neither inquire nor punish a dead person.is that wat u want?

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## baqai

i know investigations involving airforce are internal matter, but did we ever found out what happened to the JF-17 which crashed? was it a pilot error or what?


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## ababeel22

This is no place to be making personal remarks Mr khan but since you have started it i wld like to say that your arrogant and naive comments don't seem like coming from a seasoned man. It seems like anything paf does you have a huge problem with that and also whatever others write you confront it. if you wld have been capable enough u wld have been working for paf (or USAF if that is up to ur mark) and not writing here. paf is a premier institution which has been guarding our skies with limited resources but exceptional efficiency, it has people who are much more capable then you or me can ever dream to be so relax and show some faith.
coming back to the topic Guys it was a sorry accident and big loss but unfortunately no air-force is accident prone at-most we can try to minimize the loss and paf's crash rate i think is gud enough.

accident proof. typing mistake


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## Imran Khan

baqai said:


> i know investigations involving airforce are internal matter, but did we ever found out what happened to the JF-17 which crashed? was it a pilot error or what?



that was bird hit at low level flight and pilot have no chance to eject sir .bird sucked by intakes and enter in engine .

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## paflover

India had reached 200 crashes with their mig21's. they are planning to replace it with tejas. but recently in pakistan the paf plane crash number has increased alarmingly . and i smell some conspiracy as last year in november we were having awesome run of show at dubai air show with our jf-17,,, and in home it crashed denting the deals to sell it to foreign countries.


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## Donatello

paflover said:


> India had reached 200 crashes with their mig21's. they are planning to replace it with tejas. but recently in pakistan the paf plane crash number has increased alarmingly . and i smell some conspiracy as last year in november we were having awesome run of show at dubai air show with our jf-17,,, and in home it crashed denting the deals to sell it to foreign countries.



^^^ Da heck did i just read?

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## MastanKhan

Najam Khan said:


> The FIS question I asked in my earlier post has most of the answers of this discussion. Pilots from PAF/PA/PN or several other countries join FIS to learn basics lessons required for Qualified Fighter Instructor (QFI). Flt Lt and Sqn Ldrs join this course. Lessons about aerodynamics, engine,airmanship, meteorology and navigation are taught...those who pass the course return back to their respective squadrons as QFIs.
> 
> Everything at FIS is on a serious note. No body has any spare time and intentions to show his guts to each other.



Hi,

Then how did this happen---something failed somewhere----.

If it walks like a dog---if it barks like a dog---it is a dog----. In the history of aviation----same thing is repeated over and over in almost every nation's air force---a jock comes down to fly a measley little prop plane and want to show off his wares---it is not the first time and it is not the last time it has happened----.

This accident has 'fighter jock' written all over it---FIS or no FIS---if the pilot flew in and tried to slide into formation flight possibly was not too familiar with the aerodynamics of the air craft----.

That is why I kep telling you people---read---read books----read fiction---read something----you will learn to look at things.

My cousin brother's buddy a fighter pilot retires and goes for pia----on his test flight---that a-hole turns the passenger aircraft on its wing----just wanted to show off---could have easily killed the other pilot and couple of other people on the plane---- and then he is bragging about it----.

The reason I am asking the question what was the background of those pilots---coming from fighter sqdrn's or what----. These guys do it all the time---they want to show how good they are---and they cause accidents---buddy if you don't know these things---it is time to learn---not to patronize me.

On a side note---you can't make me unlearn these things now-----my hard drive is loaded up---maybe one of these days as I get old---it would get zapped---but till that day comes---!!!!!!

Your lack of knowledge and understanding shows in not looking into what their previous job was---it always boils down to---what made him do what he did----this question never changes----either in a murder---in an assault---a rape---or ijn an accident.

You are a man---you are an educated man---it is your job to ask the question---why did it happen---how did it happen---if you the future is not going to ask this question---then who is going to ask this question-----.

The air force has an excuse---and before they utter their excuses---you people are all ready to accept that is how it happens----and start brushing the dirt under the rug.



I keep telling you kids---you are not very literate people---GOD gave you two ears and two eyes---but one mouth----so read and learn and listen and learn more than you people want to talk---AND NEVER STOP ASKING QUESTIONS---NEVER TAKE THINGS FOR GRANTED---you guys are all full of excuses for others----it is amazing----.


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## razgriz19

paflover said:


> India had reached 200 crashes with their mig21's. they are planning to replace it with tejas. but recently in pakistan the paf plane crash number has increased alarmingly . and i smell some conspiracy as last year in november we were having awesome run of show at dubai air show with our jf-17,,, and in home it crashed denting the deals to sell it to foreign countries.



What do you mean Conspiracy?
our older aircrafts are being replaced, what more do you want?

And only one JF-17 crashed since its Introduction. Even F-22 has crashed a couple of time so give PAF a break!


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## MastanKhan

epinephrine said:


> investigation is already being carried out.its PAF not some bloody civil organization.action will also be taken i m sure.wat i m saying is that PAF is under no compulsion to publicize the result of inquiry report to low IQ politicians n media people or to some mr.mastan khan or epinephrine.wat needs to be done will be done i m sure.u can neither inquire nor punish a dead person.is that wat u want?




Oh---stop your sob story---count yourself into the low IQ category that you mentioned---if that is the level of your self esteem----keep it for yourself.


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## razgriz19

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Then how did this happen---something failed somewhere----.
> 
> If it walks like a dog---if it barks like a dog---it is a dog----. In the history of aviation----same thing is repeated over and over in almost every nation's air force---a jock comes down to fly a measley little prop plane and want to show off his wares---it is not the first time and it is not the last time it has happened----.
> 
> This accident has 'fighter jock' written all over it---FIS or no FIS---if the pilot flew in and tried to slide into formation flight possibly was not too familiar with the aerodynamics of the air craft----.
> 
> That is why I kep telling you people---read---read books----read fiction---read something----you will learn to look at things.
> 
> My cousin brother's buddy a fighter pilot retires and goes for pia----on his test flight---that a-hole turns the passenger aircraft on its wing----just wanted to show off---could have easily killed the other pilot and couple of other people on the plane---- and then he is bragging about it----.
> 
> The reason I am asking the question what was the background of those pilots---coming from fighter sqdrn's or what----. These guys do it all the time---they want to show how good they are---and they cause accidents---buddy if you don't know these things---it is time to learn---not to patronize me.
> 
> On a side note---you can't make me unlearn these things now-----my hard drive is loaded up---maybe one of these days as I get old---it would get zapped---but till that day comes---!!!!!!
> 
> Your lack of knowledge and understanding shows in not looking into what their previous job was---it always boils down to---what made him do what he did----this question never changes----either in a murder---in an assault---a rape---or ijn an accident.
> 
> You are a man---you are an educated man---it is your job to ask the question---why did it happen---how did it happen---if you the future is not going to ask this question---then who is going to ask this question-----.
> 
> The air force has an excuse---and before they utter their excuses---you people are all ready to accept that is how it happens----and start brushing the dirt under the rug.
> 
> 
> 
> I keep telling you kids---you are not very literate people---GOD gave you two ears and two eyes---but one mouth----so read and learn and listen and learn more than you people want to talk---AND NEVER STOP ASKING QUESTIONS---NEVER TAKE THINGS FOR GRANTED---you guys are all full of excuses for others----it is amazing----.



So you're saying those pilots don't know the aircraft they fly in everyday?
that's the boldest statement i've ever heard from a guy who doesn't fly himself!

btw Mushak is fully aerobatic capable. There is a video on youtube in which Mushshaks are flying in "50" formation!
the incident could've been a pilot error, BUT we DONT know in what circumstances mistakes were made!

so saying those pilots were showing off and dont know their aircraft is very arrogant!

and just to add on to it a little-
when pilots aren't flying, they're actually studying their aircraft and trying to come up with new strategies to counter enemy offence. And while they're in the air, they take their aircraft to the edge of its envelope. Its a necessary practice that every pilot must do and should know, so that when the time comes they dont hesitate to it again.

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Then how did this happen---something failed somewhere----.
> 
> If it walks like a dog---if it barks like a dog---it is a dog----. In the history of aviation----*same thing is repeated over and over in almost every* *nation's air force-*--a jock comes down to fly a measley little prop plane and want to show off his wares---it is not the first time and it is not the last time it has happened----.
> 
> This accident has 'fighter jock' written all over it---FIS or no FIS---*if the pilot flew in and tried to slide into formation flight possibly was not too familiar with the aerodynamics of the air craft*----.
> 
> That is why I kep telling you *people---read---read books----read fiction---read something-*---you will learn to look at things.
> 
> My *cousin brother's buddy a fighter pilot retires and goes for pia----on his test flight---that a-hole turns the passenger aircraft on its wing----just wanted to show off---could have easily killed the other pilot and couple of other people on the plane---- and then he is bragging about it*----.
> 
> The reason I am asking the question what was the background of those pilots---coming from fighter sqdrn's or what----. These guys do it all the time---they want to show how good they are---and they cause accidents---buddy if you don't know these things---it is time to learn---not to patronize me.
> 
> On a side note---you can't make me unlearn these things now-----my hard drive is loaded up---maybe one of these days as I get old---it would get zapped---but till that day comes---!!!!!!
> 
> Your lack of knowledge and understanding shows in not looking into what their previous job was---it always boils down to---what made him do what he did----this question never changes----either in a murder---in an assault---a rape---or ijn an accident.
> 
> You are a man---you are an educated man---it is your job to ask the question---why did it happen---how did it happen---if you the future is not going to ask this question---then who is going to ask this question-----.
> 
> The air force has an excuse---and before they utter their excuses---you people are all ready to accept that is how it happens----and start brushing the dirt under the rug.
> 
> 
> 
> I keep telling you kids---you are not very literate people---GOD gave you two ears and two eyes---but one mouth----so read and learn and listen and learn more than you people want to talk---AND NEVER STOP ASKING QUESTIONS---NEVER TAKE THINGS FOR GRANTED---you guys are all full of excuses for others----it is amazing----.



That is extreme generalization.. so everytime a USAF senior pilot steps into a T-6 texan II he is looking to show off?? 
Too harsh, and too personalized a theory.. Your cousins buddys brother or whatever relations may have been a show-off... 
But thats like saying that every driver on the street is rash because you know one rash driver.

And its because I read books, do research.. and meet people.. That I must completely reject your theory as based on just personal assumption and not actual research or current knowledge. You are assuming that TOP GUN's Tom cruise types are all over the place.. and going nuts.
Here is my personalized theory then..
I knew one of those pilots and two of his colleagues and have shared dinner with them, he was not the type to show off. 
Let me put this straight to you, those fighter pilots.. that machismo that you saw in your heydeys does not exist anymore..
You think a person who is father.. who knows that responsibility of having two kids will carelessly throw his life at the brink?
I believe you mock him by suggesting that he did without holding the responsibilities of his wife and kids dear.
The aircraft were *IN* formation when this happened.. no sliding into formation or out of it..The fly this close day in and day out. 
Sure, pilot error cannot be ruled out.. but you seem to suggest a daily show-boating..which doesn't exist at all at this senior level.
If there were three cadets.. or cadets and Flt lt.. I would agree.. But these were senior, settled pilots.. 
If you do read.. and meet today(provided your harddrive has some space left).. speak to any of these senior guys..and they'll gladly reminisce about their times as new flying officers and unauthorized low flying and aerobatics.
Ask them about now and the only word they have is not anymore, not ever...they have a family and responsibilities to look out for. I called up Sqn Ldr Moazzums colleague(who also lives in the flat adjacent to him) and was part of the FIS course. He knows these men much more intimately than you and I ever could. His own testimony to these men exists. They were not the showboat types... when somebody I trust tells me that he would trust those men not to make those mistake.. I dont consider them excuses.. I consider them reliable evidence. We can ask questions and we should.. but there is a difference between intelligent questions asked by an investigative committee..and those asked by a two bit news reporter.. 

You keep advising us all the time, and is always appreciated.. but I would also suggest that you stop behaving like a few PA generals I know and make space in your harddrive ;Not discard everything coming from those younger than you that disagrees with your PoV as nonsense.

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## Jango

Another thing that the Flt lt, did have a Sqd Ldr with him, while the other plane had both Sqd Ldrs.


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## Lightning Soul

To Mastan Khan
Sir I'm just 18 and I just joined PDF a while ago. But even i can vouch for that PAF is a very Professional Air Force. I personally know some GDP's in PAF & from them i got to know that there are very strict rules which they have to follow during flying.The Instructors can even physically punish the rookie Pilot while flying for even a slightest mistake (Unintentionally) made by them so how can they simply ignore if something is intentional?. And From what i heard about the Crash,all those were very senior Pilots not some kind of Amateurs.So Its highly unlikely to believe that they would've been showing off and pulling off dangerous manuevers like its a child's play.Plus It was a Formation flight (Not a Solo Mission) so its common sense that a Junior won't attempt to do such a foolish thing in the presence of its instructors. It was really an unfortunate accident that might have been occurred due to pilot error but it was definitely Not the case that those " Pilots were trying to prove themselves or showing off that how good they are "


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## JunaidP

And to add to the discussion, the day that the accident occurred, strong winds were blowing all day and night.. so one cannot rule out a strong gust of wind that could have blown one plane right into the other with them flying so close in the formation.. even enough to clip a wing could have resulted in this unfortunate disaster.. May Allah give patience to the grieving families to live through these troubled times..


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## Manticore

Lets come back on topic , gents ..No more personal attacks -- If you have insider news regarding the accident findings , or can support your speculations based on valid aviation scenarios , then please post , otherwise keep away from posting no value stuff
regards


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## MastanKhan

JunaidP said:


> And to add to the discussion, the day that the accident occurred, strong winds were blowing all day and night.. so one cannot rule out a strong gust of wind that could have blown one plane right into the other with them flying so close in the formation.. even enough to clip a wing could have resulted in this unfortunate disaster.. May Allah give patience to the grieving families to live through these troubled times..



Hi,

You answered it yourself---if there were strong winds---strong gusty wings---then why fly in close formation----. Do you have to have an accident to stop doing what you do!


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## alibaz

A small helicopter of Army Aviation has gone missing near Wazirabad over river Chanab. IP and trainee pilots are on board 

Geo News


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## alibaz

Probably this type of schweizer helicopter is missing.


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## Jango

Helicopter is a Schweizer.


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## epinephrine

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You answered it yourself---if there were strong winds---strong gusty wings---then why fly in close formation----. Do you have to have an accident to stop doing what you do!



useless to discuss with u sir
so flying started at tuesday this week since the accident at risalpur.


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## nomi007

pray for pilots who are still missing


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## alibaz

GUJRANWALA: The wreckage of an Army Aviation helicopter which crashed in the Chenab River near Waziriabad on Wednesday has been recovered. 

Meanwhile rescuers continue to search for the pilot and trainee who were on board the helicopter.

A search operation had been initiated after it was reported that the helicopter went missing.

Army Aviation helicopter wreckage recovered - geo.tv


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## Last Hope

The trainer was Major Zahid Bari.






He is the one on right.


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## Jango

The instructor was Maj Bari, the training one was Capt Ahmed.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

MastanKhan - i'm surprised by your story about cousin's brother's buddy (the former AF pilot)....i find it hard to believe a former combat pilot would take a risk on a giant flying bus - knowing they handle totally differently and have different dynamics to them....and stranger that he'd brag about it


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## umair shah

just saw news on tv that a PAF fighter plane caught fire at sumagli airbase during routine flight checks...wats going on yar so many cashes n mishaps


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## Abu Zolfiqar

was type of aircraft specified


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## umair shah

no it was ticker on news alert it only mentioned 'fighter aircraft of PAF'.


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## Jango

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage aircraft has crashed in Uthal, according to local news channels.

At the moment it's clear whether pilot managed to eject from the aircraft safely or not. Search operation has begun for the pilot.

Information about exact type/variant of Mirage also not given by news channels. PAF operates Mirage III (including two-seater trainer) and Mirage V aircraft.

The aircraft had departed from PAF Base Masroor for a routine training flight.

Following map shows distance between Uthal and Mauripur area of Karachi. PAF Base Masroor is located in Mauripur. Sonmiani can also be seen in this map. Sonmiani test and training range is often used by PAF for live ammunition tests/demonstration/exercises.

It is a mirage V.


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## Mav3rick

nuclearpak said:


> A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage aircraft has crashed in Uthal, according to local news channels.
> 
> At the moment it's clear whether pilot managed to eject from the aircraft safely or not. Search operation has begun for the pilot.
> 
> Information about exact type/variant of Mirage also not given by news channels. PAF operates Mirage III (including two-seater trainer) and Mirage V aircraft.
> 
> The aircraft had departed from PAF Base Masroor for a routine training flight.
> 
> Following map shows distance between Uthal and Mauripur area of Karachi. PAF Base Masroor is located in Mauripur. Sonmiani can also be seen in this map. Sonmiani test and training range is often used by PAF for live ammunition tests/demonstration/exercises.
> 
> It is a mirage V.



If things continue this way, we won't have an air force to challenge IAF. WTF is going on, so many losses in a year should be unacceptable!

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## Jango

lets hope the pilot is safe.

Phasing out is being done automatically!


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## Adnan Faruqi

Pakistan air force plane crashed in SW Balochistan province - Xinhua | English.news.cn

What happen to PAF ?? suddenly so many crashes ?


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## PakShaheen79

Adnan Faruqi said:


> Pakistan air force plane crashed in SW Balochistan province - Xinhua | English.news.cn
> 
> What happen to PAF ?? suddenly so many crashes ?



I think old airframe and too much sorties due to WoT are major reasons.

Anxiously waiting for any news about pilot.


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## Imran Khan

SO SAD please pray for SQN leader Iqbal .SAR is on the way


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## Imran Khan

*According to latest report pilot SQN leader Muhammad Iqbal is safe*   


The aircraft crashed into a mountainous area between Dureji and Uthal in Lasbela District.

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## Windjammer

> Both pilots on board, one instructor and a trainee, were safe in the incident as they ejected from the plane before it crashed, Pakistan air force (PAF) spokesman told media.



Evidently, it was a twin seat Mirage jet.


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## swathi

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think old airframe and too much sorties due to WoT are major reasons.
> 
> Anxiously waiting for any news about pilot.



I think PAF has to Induct JF-17 quickly in order to phase out vintage Mirages . Regarding too much sorties? Why cant the PAF use Newly inducted JF-17 thunders instead of vintage mirages.


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## Windjammer

swathi said:


> I think PAF has to Induct JF-17 quickly in order to phase out vintage Mirages . Regarding too much sorties? Why cant the PAF use Newly inducted JF-17 thunders instead of vintage mirages.



There are no duel seat JF-17 currently in the PAF inventory, hence it has to use the twin seater Mirages and FT-7s as lead in trainers.


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## Adnan Faruqi

*Fighter jet crashes in Balochistan, no casualties*

By AFP
Published: June 12, 2012

This picture shows a Mirage fighter jet taxis out of a hanger. A Pakistan air force mirage crashed in Balochistan on Tuesday. PHOTO: AFP/FILE

KARACHI: A Pakistani fighter jet crashed in the south of the country Tuesday while on routine training but the pilot ejected safely and there were no casualties on the ground, an air force official said.

The French-built Mirage jet took off from the Pakistan Air Force&#8217;s Masroor Base in Arabian Sea port city of Karachi and crashed near the town of Uthal in Balochistan, air force spokesman Squadron Leader Mohammad Nadeem told AFP.

Uthal is around 60 kilometres west of Karachi.

*&#8220;The pilot ejected successfully and safely,&#8221; *the spokesman said, adding the cause of the accident would be determined after an investigation.

No loss of civilian life or property was reported on ground, he said.

It was the second Mirage aircraft crash in the region in a month. A Mirage-V crashed on May 11 while its pilot ejected safely as well.

The Pakistan Air Force has a fleet of Chinese aircraft including F-7PGs and A-5s, plus US-built F-16s and French Mirages. It recently acquired JF-17s Thunder jets, manufactured jointly by China and Pakistan.


Fighter jet crashes in Balochistan, no casualties &#8211; The Express Tribune

PAF Mirage jet crashes; pilot safe | Business Standard


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## nomi007

serious thread for paf
because jf-17 thunder already facing financial crisis
so why paf is not grounding all mirage v for complete test
2nd last week we hear that mirage rebuild factory got fire is that true


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## Patriot

Relax - The Pilot is safe - Mirages are too old (Built in 60's).PAF should speed up JF-17 production and replace Mirages ASAP.


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## Peaceful Civilian

Mirages are old aircraft. I think They are teaching to the trainee how to eject successfully.
They have old air frame. I think they are expired now, So may be using this for training purpose and ejection prospects.


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## SQ8

If it was one of the older VD models.. it was bound to happen..
There is limit to what can be done with 45 year old airframes.


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## Safriz

Oscar said:


> If it was one of the older VD models.. it was bound to happen..
> There is limit to what can be done with 45 year old airframes.



I see RAF Lancaster flying over the Hills,two three times a year......and thats a 2nd WW plane.


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## Rafi

Safriz said:


> I see RAF Lancaster flying over the Hills,two three times a year......and thats a 2nd WW plane.



Yeah, but these planes are flying regularly, I doubt the Lancaster is doing more than a few dozen hours a year, and that too in exhibitions.


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## SQ8

Safriz said:


> I see RAF Lancaster flying over the Hills,two three times a year......and thats a 2nd WW plane.



Try getting the crew who fly it and maintain it to tell how carefully they treat it..
This is not the case with a fighter being used operationally.


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## Windjammer

Rafi said:


> Yeah, but these planes are flying regularly, I doubt the Lancaster is doing more than a few dozen hours a year, and that too in exhibitions.



Also, Lancaster has four engines, even if two stop working, it can still maintain it's flight.


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## alibaz

Thank God pilot is safe but PAF must avoid too many crashes otherwise they won't leave any Miraj to place in museums or in bases for display.


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## Machoman

these Mirajes are old and we need to replace them. We need to start looking some j-11 too now.


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## VelocuR




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## Last Hope

Raptor, the picture is Mirage 2000 of what seems like BAF camo.

I have my report of the incident saved, I am told not to publish it until the actual report comes in. It's been 40 years, we need to kick in JF-17 production. But the great government and Pakistani public is already asking to CUT the already extremely limited Defense budget.

Today's PAF budget with increment is $1.8 Billion, and PAF bought 18 F-16 C+/D+ for $1.8Bn. Absurd amount IMO. With this budget, expect this thread to be active.


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## Safriz

^^^True that...Pakistsni politicians and now the pakistani public are a truely confusdd lot...
They want every thing to be state of the art,but govt wont release the money..and whatever little money is released,both politicians and public will moan the hell out of it and demonise pakisani defence forces.

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## Rahil khan

Last Hope said:


> Raptor, the picture is Mirage 2000 of what seems like BAF camo.
> 
> I have my report of the incident saved, I am told not to publish it until the actual report comes in. It's been 40 years, we need to kick in JF-17 production. But the great government and Pakistani public is already asking to CUT the already extremely limited Defense budget.
> 
> Today's PAF budget with increment is $1.8 Billion, and PAF bought 18 F-16 C+/D+ for $1.8Bn. Absurd amount IMO. With this budget, expect this thread to be active.


Well said brother. All i can say is that this increment is only a pack of peanuts given to PAF. Imagine a man like Naveed Qamar sitting on Defense Minster's seat. What can we expect from them. Nil outa nil.


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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> Raptor, the picture is Mirage 2000 of what seems like BAF camo.
> 
> I have my report of the incident saved, I am told not to publish it until the actual report comes in. It's been 40 years, we need to kick in JF-17 production. But the great government and Pakistani public is already asking to CUT the already extremely limited Defense budget.
> 
> Today's PAF budget with increment is $1.8 Billion, and PAF bought 18 F-16 C+/D+ for $1.8Bn. Absurd amount IMO. With this budget, expect this thread to be active.




I say this repeatedly, procurement budget is different from running budget. the 1.8billion $ budget is for the salaries of PAF personal, pensions and admin costs (VIP costs and stuff).

Procurement funds are released from government's account (Maybe Forex reserves, maybe loan or print more money and devalue your rupee)

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## razgriz19

I think its time that we speed up thunder's production.
These mirages/F-7 has become flying coffins for our pilots.



Safriz said:


> I see RAF Lancaster flying over the Hills,two three times a year......and thats a 2nd WW plane.



yeah i also saw a P-51 mustang, thats also a WW2 aircraft.
But the people who maintain it, go ask them how expensive and regularly they have to maintain those aircrafts for a few minutes flight.

on the other hand, these mirages are operational aircrafts, they fly regularly, unlike lancaster or mustang.


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## Nishan_101

Last Hope said:


> Raptor, the picture is Mirage 2000 of what seems like BAF camo.
> 
> I have my report of the incident saved, I am told not to publish it until the actual report comes in. It's been 40 years, we need to kick in JF-17 production. But the great government and Pakistani public is already asking to CUT the already extremely limited Defense budget.
> 
> Today's PAF budget with increment is $1.8 Billion, and PAF bought 18 F-16 C+/D+ for $1.8Bn. Absurd amount IMO. With this budget, expect this thread to be active.


 
Really if they have invested the $1.8 Billion in making new PAC facility as well on the R&D on avionics along with production and development of JF-17 and K-8 then now it will totally a different story. Like if the PT-06 was made out of composite and PAC has joined the Chinese to developed different avionic componenets like sensors (as they had deveoped other componenets jointly) then it might be possible us to see FLIR along with IRST POD(which is already present), RD-93B, Composites and Retractable In flight rrefueeling probe and later dual seat in 2008. Then might have 11 JF-17 single seater in Kamra in 2007 and 10 JF-17 dual seat in 2008 as test and evaluation plane. More PAC would produce JF-17 like this:
110 JF-17 Block-I(30 Dual seat included) and about 70+ Dual Seat as AJTs
110 JF-17 Block-II(30 Dual seat included)
110 JF-17 Block-III(30 Dual seat included)

These planes would going to replace A-5C and Mirage in the first then F-7s later on, along with 70 FC-20s till 2015.

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## Mav3rick

Safriz said:


> ^^^True that...Pakistsni politicians and now the pakistani public are a truely confusdd lot...
> They want every thing to be state of the art,but govt wont release the money..and whatever little money is released,both politicians and public will moan the hell out of it and demonise pakisani defence forces.


 
Should we all not mourn and cry when the Air Force continues to invest in F-16's from the US instead of looking towards China for total reliance? The insane investment in F-16's post 9/11 is not baffling, it is criminal because those who make decisions have consistently failed to learn from the past.....they do not deserve to hold on to important posts!

US$ 5.1 Billion were set aside for the F-16's, along with MLU, armaments, radars etc., right? So what if we bought 18 instead of the planned 36......had we invested that amount in J-10's or J-11's, we would have been a lot better off. I have said it time and again, decision to acquire more F-16's was not only insane, it was criminal!


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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC Date Posted: 13-Jun-2012 

*Pakistan Mirage crashes during training exercise*

Gareth Jennings - Aviation Desk Editor - London


A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Dassault Mirage 5 fighter aircraft crashed during a routine training sortie on 12 June, national media has reported. 

The crash, which is the second such incident involving this aircraft type in the region in less than a month, occurred in the southwestern Balochistan province, the reports said. 

The pilot reportedly ejected safely and was recovered shortly after the French-built fighter came down some 60 km from its home station of Masroor Air Base in Karachi. There were no casualties on the ground. 

Military authorities are currently investigating the cause of the crash.

The PAF operates a number of Mirage 5-variant aircraft, the first of which entered service in 1973. These variants comprise the multirole Mirage 5PA (1973), Mirage 5PA2 (1981), Mirage 5PA3 (1982) and Mirage 5EF (1998) and the reconnaissance Mirage 5DR (2004). It is not known which variant was involved in this incident. 

With Mirage III fighters also in service, the PAF is the largest Mirage operator outside of France

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## TOPGUN

Thank GOD the pilot is safe .. until thunders are put in large numbers inshallah this risk will stay i hope no more crashes take place.


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## ziaulislam

Mav3rick said:


> Should we all not mourn and cry when the Air Force continues to invest in F-16's from the US instead of looking towards China for total reliance? The insane investment in F-16's post 9/11 is not baffling, it is criminal because those who make decisions have consistently failed to learn from the past.....they do not deserve to hold on to important posts!
> 
> US$ 5.1 Billion were set aside for the F-16's, along with MLU, armaments, radars etc., right? So what if we bought 18 instead of the planned 36......had we invested that amount in J-10's or J-11's, we would have been a lot better off. I have said it time and again, decision to acquire more F-16's was not only insane, it was criminal!


air force only spent 3 billion dollars and that two on weapons, upgrades..they havent really invested much in it


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## araz

Mav3rick said:


> US$ 5.1 Billion were set aside for the F-16's, along with MLU, armaments, radars etc., right? So what if we bought 18 instead of the planned 36......had we invested that amount in J-10's or J-11's, we would have been a lot better off. I have said it time and again, decision to acquire more F-16's was not only insane, it was criminal!



As I have siad before the F16s have their own utility. Secondly we do not know the cause of this accident and need to wait till we know more. 
You guys need to understand that there are reasons behind a certain procurement. PAF people dont just go out and say we like this model , lets get it. A lot of thought go behind it. J10 B is still not ready for induction as i dont think anyone has reported a squadren inducted in china even. There are issues with the engine and this will take time. You are already winging about one russian engine. Do you really want to have a double headache? What are the indications that the russians would even allow AL31F to be exported to Pakistan? Similarly J11, although I would love to see a couple of Squadrens of it in PAF/PN, do we have the resources to maintain a twin engined plane with a russian engine (and possible litigation about copyright infringements,) that they might not allow us to have. All these prospects may well open up once WS10 matures, so how does your current needs play up against these factors.
Remember that JFT also is in a state of evolution. All of you need to be aware that it is evolving. Do you want the PAF to be composed of entirely one fighter? If we spend our funds now on JFT how do we buy the next generation of fighters? 
These things are why we have people who spend their lives with planes and look after their motherlands security. Sure we have problems and an inept government and a raging war scenario in our immediate neighbourhoood and even within our own country, but look at your priorities and tell me how you are going to provide funds for your purchases? 
Everything carries a cost and has a liability associated with it . People actually spend their lives doing cost /benefit analysis and i can tell you that the least productive way to spend your money is in buying planes and boats while the nation starves.
I hope you understand my sentiments behind this post. The recent losses are indeed sad, and the mirages are old , but we need to soldier on and accept that attrition is a possibility on any platform.
Araz

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## unicorn

Aviation Safety Network >


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## fatman17

* but we need to soldier on and accept that attrition is a possibility on any platform*

universal truth.


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## Nishan_101

RaptorRX707 said:


>


 
If UAE has tried their best to join the French or taken TOT in 1990s for the production of Mirage-2000 in AUE then it will be great for them. Like they would produce it in the three blocks and about 50-60 planes in every five years.


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## r1MM0n

Five people, including a pilot and a co-pilot, were killed when a helicopter crashed near the Skardu airport on Wednesday, Express News reported.

Express News correspondent Muhammad Afzal reported that the helicopter was on a routine flight when it caught fire near the Skardu airport.

According to ISPR, the helicopter was an MI-17 of the Pakistan Aviation and was on its test flight.

The helicopter was completely damaged in the crash.

According to initial reports, the pilot tried landing the helicopter at the nearest airbase, but it crash after catching fire.

Five killed in helicopter crash near Skardu airport  The Express Tribune


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## Jango

test flight???

Why would a Mi-17 be on a tst flight near Skardu?

or was their some new high altitude system installed?

May the deceased be granted jannah.


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## alibaz

*SKARDU: An army aviation helicopter has crashed near Skardu Airport in Gilgit-Baltistan, Geo News reported.*

At least five people including the pilot and co-pilot were killed in the crash. The helicopter was returning from Gayari when it crashed due to a technical fault.

According to the ISPR, the helicopter was an MI-17 and was on its test flight.


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## Blackpearl

This is a paradox, a helo cannot be on a mission and also on a test flight. Either it was comming back from Gayari sector or it has taken off from Army Aviation Base at Sakardu. 
Usually, whenever there is a test flight, minimum crew is taken on board, only essential persons required to complete the test flight, MI-17 crew is basically 4 persons, Pilot, CoPilot, Flight Engineer(who sits between the pilot and copilot, but little back in the cockpit), and then there is fourth person known as crew chief, who basically is present in the cabin and works as Load Master also. Who was the fifth person who died in the crash. 
However, if the aircraft was comming back from Gayari, and not on a test flight, then it may explain the presence of the fifth person. 
5 Army Aviation Squadron operates Ecureiuls and Hips, but their maintenance base is a t Dhamial, so it is not the case that for any maintenance, the helo will fly all the way to Dhamial from Sakardu, smaller repairs are always done on site (at Squadron's own maintenence echelon), and off course, test flight may be done at squadron level.

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## fatman17

PK helso assets are so over-worked, its no surprise that this unfortunate accident has happened. God Bless the Shaheeds!


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## Blackpearl

The casualty figures are : 5 killed and 3 Injured

Five soldiers die in Skardu chopper crash - thenews.com.pk

It was certainly not a test flight, with 8 persons on board, rather, most likely, aircraft was comming back from some kind of mission.


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## Jango

The heli is almost upside down, maybe some engine failure or loss of power. Weather seems clear enough.

There is a Major who is critically injured, maybe one of the crew. lets pray for him that he stays alive.


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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> PK helso assets are so over-worked, its no surprise that this unfortunate accident has happened. God Bless the Shaheeds!



This unit had come from US after maintenance and modifications and was on it's test flight to/from Gyari as some media reports say. Possibility are, it maybe equipped for the recovery operation in some way but it didn't quite work out. This was first flight after returning from USA if I am not wrong.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> This unit had come from US after maintenance and modifications and was on it's test flight to/from Gyari as some media reports say. Possibility are, it maybe equipped for the recovery operation in some way but it didn't quite work out. This was first flight after returning from USA if I am not wrong.



Mi17 maintenance in US?? Very very unlikely and improbable. 

Some add ons on the heli might be a possibility, but surely they would have been on the exterior rather than in the engines or transmission. (if they were for a rescue effort)

Maybe some new fuel formulas or power problem(it was after takeoff), sudden wind, anything is a possibility at this stage.


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## Donatello

nuclearpak said:


> Mi17 maintenance in US?? Very very unlikely and improbable.
> 
> Some add ons on the heli might be a possibility, but surely they would have been on the exterior rather than in the engines or transmission. (if they were for a rescue effort)
> 
> Maybe some new fuel formulas or power problem(it was after takeoff), sudden wind, anything is a possibility at this stage.



I think the helicopter was given by USA. USA does maintain a fleet of Mi17s, and i think some years back they gave Pakistan some of them.


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## Jango

Donatello said:


> I think the helicopter was given by USA. USA does maintain a fleet of Mi17s, and i think some years back they gave Pakistan some of them.



Yes, they do have some Mi-17's.

but the point that Last Hope made was that the heli went for *repair *to US.


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Yes, they do have some Mi-17's.
> 
> but the point that Last Hope made was that the heli went for *repair *to US.


 
What I said was, this unit was under it's first flight after some techinical work which included modificationof the helicopter.


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## BATMAN

Don't be surprised when, Blk-52 start falling on their first mission.


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## fatman17

Last Hope said:


> This unit had come from US after maintenance and modifications and was on it's test flight to/from Gyari as some media reports say. Possibility are, it maybe equipped for the recovery operation in some way but it didn't quite work out. This was first flight after returning from USA if I am not wrong.



maintenance of Mi-17's done in czeck republic as well as romania. US does finance the overhaul. however 10 Mi-17's were leased by US to PAA but were returned due to poor condition of the helos. 4 were then re-directed to afghan where they are now used for spares. the 6 remaining were never delivered. 

this latest incident is not related to the US sponsored/leased helos.

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## umair86

BATMAN said:


> Don't be surprised when, Blk-52 start falling on their first mission.


Flying is a hazardous business accidents can happen.


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## fatman17

the latest Mi-17 attrition incident - the cause of the crash was "the pilot tried to crash land the helo after an in-flight engine fire resulting in complete power loss".


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> the latest Mi-17 attrition incident - the cause of the crash was "the pilot tried to crash land the helo after an in-flight engine fire resulting in complete power loss".



Right after take off right?

might have not gained enough altitude so auto-rotation could be ruled out.

Complete loss of power, that must have been a pretty big fire then.


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## Wingman

nuclearpak said:


> The heli is almost upside down, maybe some engine failure or loss of power. Weather seems clear enough.
> 
> There is a Major who is critically injured, maybe one of the crew. lets pray for him that he stays alive.



Major Shoaib has died as 90% of his body was burnt

MAJOR SHOAIB........

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...410605488.29896.147585388617557&type=1&ref=nf


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## Wingman

Maj Amir Azam Shaheed.. Pic was taken one day Prior to his Shahadat at Skardu.


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...59517.38127.138222492856579&type=1&permPage=1

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## Jango

sad to hear


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## Last Hope

Wingman said:


> Maj Amir Azam Shaheed.. Pic was taken one day Prior to his Shahadat at Skardu.
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...59517.38127.138222492856579&type=1&permPage=1


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## Jango

The crash took place at Gamba airfield, east of Skardu base. Skardu base is used by PAF, named as Qadri airbase, while the PAA uses Gamba.

The crash took place while landing, the pilot lost control while hovering just before landing (fire is the probable culprit according to people familiar), and Maj Shoaib walked out with minor injuries. 2 crew were trapped inside, and the major went to rescue them. The two crew then survived with minor injuries, while the major suffered 90% burns on his body. He was then shifted to Army Burn centre Kharian, where he breathed his last.

Incredible story of bravery, he saved two lives and gave his own.

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## karan.1970

nuclearpak said:


> The crash took place at Gamba airfield, east of Skardu base. Skardu base is used by PAF, named as Qadri airbase, while the PAA uses Gamba.
> 
> The crash took place while landing, the pilot lost control while hovering just before landing (fire is the probable culprit according to people familiar), and Maj Shoaib walked out with minor injuries. 2 crew were trapped inside, and the major went to rescue them. The two crew then survived with minor injuries, while the major suffered 90% burns on his body. He was then shifted to Army Burn centre Kharian, where he breathed his last.
> 
> Incredible story of bravery, he saved two lives and gave his own.



That's the stuff legends are made of ... Respect...

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## MudassarSultan1

melb4aust said:


> PAF lost one of its F-7 Fighter jet during a normal training mission in Attock near Dhok Pathan. Unfortunately Pilot lost his life(Shaheed) too. Though there was loss of ground life. Airheadquarter has already formed an inquiry board to find out the reason of the crash.
> 
> We have gotta wait for more latest news to find out who was the pilot, how this incident happen.
> But that was really bad for us, especially the loss of a life a pilot. We need JF-17 soon to phase out these old F-7's.


 So sad to Liston dat

He was a brave pilot and real Muslim.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

nuclearpak said:


> The crash took place at Gamba airfield, east of Skardu base. Skardu base is used by PAF, named as Qadri airbase, while the PAA uses Gamba.
> 
> The crash took place while landing, the pilot lost control while hovering just before landing (fire is the probable culprit according to people familiar), and Maj Shoaib walked out with minor injuries. 2 crew were trapped inside, and the major went to rescue them. The two crew then survived with minor injuries, while the major suffered 90% burns on his body. He was then shifted to Army Burn centre Kharian, where he breathed his last.
> 
> Incredible story of bravery, he saved two lives and gave his own.



this is PAKISTAN ARMY

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## Machoman

I salute you Sir for your bravery


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## umair86

nuclearpak said:


> The crash took place at Gamba airfield, east of Skardu base. Skardu base is used by PAF, named as Qadri airbase, while the PAA uses Gamba.
> 
> The crash took place while landing, the pilot lost control while hovering just before landing (fire is the probable culprit according to people familiar), and Maj Shoaib walked out with minor injuries. 2 crew were trapped inside, and the major went to rescue them. The two crew then survived with minor injuries, while the major suffered 90% burns on his body. He was then shifted to Army Burn centre Kharian, where he breathed his last.
> 
> Incredible story of bravery, he saved two lives and gave his own.



For his Act of valor and bravery he should be awarded Highest military award.


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## wahabishtiaq

Do you know shabbir personally? I am his brother Wahab Ishtiaq!

Dear Nuclear pak,

Thanks for the post,do you know shabbir ishtiaq personally? I am his brother wahab ishtiaq. please reply!

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## Kompromat

wahabishtiaq said:


> Do you know shabbir personally? I am his brother Wahab Ishtiaq!
> 
> Dear Nuclear pak,
> 
> Thanks for the post,do you know shabbir ishtiaq personally? I am his brother wahab ishtiaq. please reply!



Welcome to the forum sir.


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## Jango

The place where the Helicopter crashed. This is to the west of the main Skardu-Gilgit road.

To the east there is the old runway (runway 15,33), and further east, the PAF airbase with the newer runway (runway 14,32).

Search Skardu airport and you will get the idea.

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## Bratva

when ever i see a new reply in this thread, my heart beat increases and feel a sick feeling in stomach before opening this thread, thinking Not again, Please Allah mian.....

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## Last Hope



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## Imran Khan

August 6 - According to local news channels, today a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) MFI-17 Mushshak basic trainer aircraft after experiencing some technical problem made a forced landing in an open field in Charsadda.

Both pilots of the aircraft remained safe and unhurt.

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## Jango

CFIT perhaps, damage doesn't seem to be much.

Front gear has gone off.


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## black_jack

good news that pilots are safe , aircraft seems recoverable .


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## srilankan

master_fx said:


> wat kind F-7??? j-7a/b? j-7c/d? j-7mg?


 I think it is F-7P


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## ababeel22

wow! pilot did a hell of a job landing on a field, clearly shows the class of paf training regime.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

hardly a scratch on the aircraft.....

but i think the farmer will be very angry


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## Jango

looks like a loss of power on the looks of it.


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> looks like a loss of power on the looks of it.



Likely. The landing gear is on, and there are hardly any trials behind the aircraft. It seems as if it had vertical landing gone wrong. The aircraft looks in a good condition meaning that the technical fault occured when the aircraft was flying low or the pilots had warning and quickly reacted by lowering the altitude.


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## Safriz

maintinance issues in PAF?
Crashes and mishaos have become more frequent than before...

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> CFIT perhaps, damage doesn't seem to be much.
> 
> Front gear has gone off.



do you know what CFIT means? how can this mishap be a CFIT?


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> do you know what CFIT means? how can this mishap be a CFIT?



CFIT (controlled flight into terrain). It not only refers to crashing into a mountain, but also deliberately gliding your plane (crash landing) into some unprepared area, like this field.

So, the plane loses power, and the pilot glides his plane and in a controlled way (glide) lands his plane on the field. Hence Controlled flight into terrain. This is all assumption ofcourse.

The front landing has gone off.

BTW, the aircraft took off from PAF Risalpur.


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## Aragorn

Mushahak crash at Tangi Hill Town near Charsadah


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## Capt.Popeye

nuclearpak said:


> CFIT (controlled flight into terrain). It not only refers to crashing into a mountain, but also deliberately gliding your plane (crash landing) into some unprepared area, like this field.
> 
> So, the plane loses power, and the pilot glides his plane and in a controlled way (glide) lands his plane on the field. Hence Controlled flight into terrain. This is all assumption ofcourse.
> 
> The front landing has gone off.
> 
> BTW, the aircraft took off from PAF Risalpur.



Please pardon me. Is that definition of CFIT correct?
According to Flight Safety Foundation, 



> *Controlled Flight Into Terrain (CFIT)*
> Controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) persisted as the worlds second leading cause of commercial aviation fatalities as of 2008. Flight Safety Foundation first helped bring the issue clarity and resources in the early 1990s, when it was the accident type that killed more people than any other in the industry. *Essentially, CFIT occurs when an airworthy aircraft under the control of the flight crew is flown unintentionally into terrain, obstacles or water, usually with no prior awareness by the crew. *




In this incident, it is clear that the landing was somewhat intentional and controlled, though the place, reason and method of landing was not by choice.

From the pictures, one can see that the prop was feathered and the aircraft, the aircraft came in a low glide-path with gear down and 'force-landed' in the field.

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## Jango

My bad then.

I heard CFIT mentioned somewhere else and also by a pilot, so that's why.

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## mahmoodadeel

*BHAKKAR: A training fighter jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed in Hyderabad Thal area of Bhakkar while the pilot managed to eject safely Wednesday, Geo News reported.*

According to sources, pilot Farooq was flying the training jet Meraj when it caught fire. Fortunately he managed to eject safely after the jet caught fire and landed safely while the aircraft crashed in a suburban area of Bhakkar.

Police has cordoned off the crash site.

PAF jet crashes in Thal, pilot safe - thenews.com.pk


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## Harry Potter

I have heard of Mirages but what is this 'Miraj'?
PAF Miraj Aircraft crashes | Saach.TV
this year
Anyways this is the 5th PAF fighter to crash this year(2 F-7's and 2 Mirages crashed previously).


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## shehbazi2001

Amazingly a crash took place on 15th August 2011 too at the same location of Bhakkar. It seems that a pilot flying around Bhakkar on 15th August 2013 should be careful.


PAF plane crashes near Bhakkar
Updated at: 1340 PST, Monday, August 15, 2011
PAF plane crashes near Bhakkar BHAKKAR: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) plane crashed 90 km away from Bhakkar on Monday, Geo News reported. According to PAF spokesman, the F-7 jet was on a routine training mission and crashed due to a technical fault. According to the police a 14-year-old boy was killed when the fuel tank of the jet exploded.

The female pilot ejected from the jet prior to the crash, however she sustained injuries and was taken to the Mianwali hospital for treatment. The area was cordoned off and people were asked to stay away from the crash site.

The formation of an inquiry board has been ordered to investigate the reasons behind the crash.

PAF plane crashes near Bhakkar - GEO.tv

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## masoomchichora

acha hi hai jab tak yeh 40 saal puranay jet fighter giray gay nhi jab tak new nhi ayegay


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## Windjammer

Damn, another female pilot involved in emergency. They are flying quite regularly these days.

Hope she recovers soon, the F-7s are on their last leg in any case..... the pilot is much more valuable.


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## Harry Potter

Windjammer said:


> Damn, another female pilot involved in emergency. They are flying quite regularly these days.
> 
> Hope she recovers soon, the F-7s are on their last leg in any case..... the pilot is much more valuable.


It was a mirage.
PAF Mirage aircraft crashes in Bhakkar | The News Tribe


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## MilSpec

I really admire PAF for having female pilots on combat planes, hope to see more ladies from my country in similar role too.


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## Imran Khan

*PAF jet crashes in Thal, pilot safe*


August 15, 2012 - Updated 1148 PKT
From Web Edition



BHAKKAR: A training fighter jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed in Hyderabad Thal area of Bhakkar while the pilot managed to eject safely Wednesday, Geo News reported.



According to sources, pilot Farooq was flying the training jet Miraje when it caught fire. Fortunately he managed to eject safely after the jet caught fire and landed safely while the aircraft crashed in a suburban area of Bhakkar.



Police has cordoned off the crash site.
PAF jet crashes in Thal, pilot safe - thenews.com.pk


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> According to sources, pilot *Farooq* was flying the training jet Miraje when it caught fire. Fortunately he managed to eject safely after the jet caught fire and landed safely while the aircraft crashed in a suburban area of Bhakkar.



Some say it was a female pilot.??


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## epinephrine

these mirages are becoming the flying coffins of paf


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## razgriz19

man about like 10 aircrafts crashed this year already!
what the hell is going on?
they need to replace these aircrafts as soon as possible!



Harry Potter said:


> I have heard of Mirages but what is this 'Miraj'?
> PAF Miraj Aircraft crashes | Saach.TV
> this year
> Anyways this is the 5th PAF fighter to crash this year(2 F-7's and 2 Mirages crashed previously).



our media doesn't know anything about military.
so thats why its a "miraj" for them lol


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## SQ8

razgriz19 said:


> man about like *10 aircrafts crashed this year already!*
> what the hell is going on?
> they need to replace these aircrafts as soon as possible!
> 
> 
> 
> our media doesn't know anything about military.
> so thats why its a "miraj" for them lol



Flight hours have been increased per squadron.


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## Machoman

This is a time Pakistan should seriously think about buy some good planes. We already have Chinese planes. I am talking about EF or Saab Gripen, and please don't start comparing Gripen with jf now.


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## epinephrine

Oscar said:


> Flight hours have been increased per squadron.



2010 was a very tough year.about 2 months of exercises and still it was the safest year.so many crashes have occurred this year.3 mushshak accidents.paf needs to take some serious measures to decrease the crash rate.we are matching the indians unfortunately.


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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> Flight hours have been increased per squadron.



Whats the average hour/year of PAF pilot now?


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## epinephrine

Machoman said:


> This is a time Pakistan should seriously think about buy some good planes. We already have Chinese planes. I am talking about EF or Saab Gripen, and please don't start comparing Gripen with jf now.



who will provide funds for getting EF or grippen.even if we get funds finalization of deal and delivery of first batch of jets will take about 5 years.mirages need urgent replacement and the quickest possible option if only jft.it seems third sqn of jft is already a bit late.1st sn was inducted in 2010.2nd in 2011 and 3rd...? it seems pak and china are not even producing 20 air crafts per year.how and when paf will get 200 jfts as planned?


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## fatman17

rockstar said:


> Whats the average hour/year of PAF pilot now?



220 hours !!!!!


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## Najam Khan

Imran Khan said:


> BHAKKAR: A training fighter jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed in Hyderabad Thal area of Bhakkar while the pilot managed to eject safely Wednesday, Geo News reported.
> 
> *According to sources, pilot Farooq was flying the training jet Miraje when it caught fire.* Fortunately he managed to eject safely after the jet caught fire and landed safely while the aircraft crashed in a suburban area of Bhakkar.
> 
> Police has cordoned off the crash site.



According to a CCS pilot, the Mirage belonged to their squadron. It was on a Low Level Strike (LLS) mission over Thal firing range. Wreckage was found 10nm from the firing range. Birdhit seem to be the possible reason of crash.

On an unrelated note, EWTTR (the EW range of PAF) is located in Thal.


----------



## rockstarIN

fatman17 said:


> 220 hours !!!!!




way ahead of nato standard of 150 per year ?


----------



## Cent4

CHAKWAL: An unmanned remote-controlled aircraft reportedly crashed near Lakhwal dam in Chakwal, Geo News reported.

Sources said, the plane crashed near the residential area after it caught fire in the air.

According to police official, there were no reports of casualties.

Relief and rescue teams have rushed to the site of the incident.


Unmanned aircraft crashes near Chakwal - geo.tv


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## Last Hope

aliabid said:


> CHAKWAL: An unmanned remote-controlled aircraft reportedly crashed near Lakhwal dam in Chakwal, Geo News reported.
> 
> Sources said, the plane crashed near the residential area after it caught fire in the air.
> 
> According to police official, there were no reports of casualties.
> 
> Relief and rescue teams have rushed to the site of the incident.
> 
> 
> Unmanned aircraft crashes near Chakwal - geo.tv



Probably CH-3 as PAF and AAC are using these these days.


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## Cent4

Last Hope said:


> Probably CH-3 as PAF and AAC are using these these days.



looks that way. lets see what is the official version


----------



## A.Rafay

they said that helicopter crashed!


----------



## Rafi

A.Rafay said:


> they said that helicopter crashed!



Belongs to CAA = nothing to see here.


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## Nishan_101

Imran Khan said:


> *PAF jet crashes in Thal, pilot safe*
> 
> 
> August 15, 2012 - Updated 1148 PKT
> From Web Edition
> 
> 
> 
> BHAKKAR: A training fighter jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed in Hyderabad Thal area of Bhakkar while the pilot managed to eject safely Wednesday, Geo News reported.
> 
> 
> 
> According to sources, pilot Farooq was flying the training jet Miraje when it caught fire. Fortunately he managed to eject safely after the jet caught fire and landed safely while the aircraft crashed in a suburban area of Bhakkar.
> 
> 
> 
> Police has cordoned off the crash site.
> PAF jet crashes in Thal, pilot safe - thenews.com.pk


 
Its just the PAF and GoP that is not spending the money on getting this JF-17 into full production 100 of each blocks would have made a great difference and even loosing some mirages in accidents like these won't affect the PAF in any way.



Machoman said:


> This is a time Pakistan should seriously think about buy some good planes. We already have Chinese planes. I am talking about EF or Saab Gripen, and please don't start comparing Gripen with jf now.


 
Man you are going too much expensive we had money than we might have gone for more F-16s Block-52s along side the upgrade package from our own money which now being funded by US.



aliabid said:


> looks that way. lets see what is the official version


 
Do you have any crash picture or other picture of its operation from PAF bases???


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## David James

A.Rafay said:


> they said that helicopter crashed!



transport or attack??


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## Fieldmarshal

it is a drone


----------



## mike bennett

Dear Forum Members,
Does anyone have extra details of the following loss that I was informed about in an email

29th July 1986
PAF
Shenyang FT-5
[MiG-17UTI]

Mianwali Air base


Pilot Officer Syed Zia Hassan
killed
Flight Lt. Abbas
OK

Thanks
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk
mbenshar@aol.com


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## Last Hope

CHAMAN: A helicopter of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) made an emergency land near Pishin, Balochistan on Tuesday. According to a private TV channel report, during the emergency landing due to technical fault, the pilot was injured who was immediately shifted to hospital. The helicopter made the emergency landing near Band Khushdil. The PAF teams and experts also reached the site of the landing to investigate the reason.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> CHAMAN: A helicopter of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) made an emergency land near Pishin, Balochistan on Tuesday. According to a private TV channel report, during the emergency landing due to technical fault, the pilot was injured who was immediately shifted to hospital. The helicopter made the emergency landing near Band Khushdil. The PAF teams and experts also reached the site of the landing to investigate the reason.



Anyone know the type of heli?

PAF operates Mi-17 and Alouette as far as I know.


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## alibaz

Just getting news of a PAF plane crash near Jhung. ARY claiming it to be Miraj. I pray for the safety of pilot.


----------



## [--Leo--]

Didn't get the report which plane that was but some plane crash in the jaang area


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## alibaz

Initially ARY reporter said it was Miraj but now all channels are showing it to be "Tarbiatee tayyara". No news about pilot till now.


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## Jango

Geo reporting that a training aircraft crashed in Thal range, no news about the pilot yet. If training aircraft, then perhaps a dual seat F-7? 

Or a Mirage doing night bombing runs in Thal range?

let's hope our Mirages don't turn into flying coffins like IAF edit: MiG 21, these air frames are getting old.


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## Devil Soul

yeah no news about pilot, hope he is safe....


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## black_jack

nuclearpak said:


> Geo reporting that a training aircraft crashed in Thal range, no news about the pilot yet. If training aircraft, then perhaps a dual seat F-7?
> 
> Or a Mirage doing night bombing runs in Thal range?
> 
> let's hope our Mirages don't turn into flying coffins like IAF jaguars, these air frames are getting old.



jaguars are not flying coffins . if you are gone use 70's plane , crashes will happen . 
Hope pilot is safe .


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## Devil Soul

JHANG: A Pakistn Air Force aircraft crashed in Hasnainabad area of Shakir Kot in Jhang district, Geo News reported.

PAK spokesman confirmed the incident and told that the plane was on routine training mission when it crashed Thal Firing Range. He said that there was report regarding the pilot of the aircraft.

Earlier, police confirmed the reports of plane crash but was unaware of the exact location of the crash.

PAF aircraft crashes near Jhang - geo.tv


----------



## alibaz

Some sad news at ARY, probably we lost a soldier. Eye witnesses say plane was in fire while in air.


----------



## chauvunist

According to an eye witness it caught fire in the Air...Express News


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## Jango

Wreckage was seen burning according to TV headlines.


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## 1ndy

nuclearpak said:


> Geo reporting that a training aircraft crashed in Thal range, no news about the pilot yet. If training aircraft, then perhaps a dual seat F-7?
> 
> Or a Mirage doing night bombing runs in Thal range?
> 
> let's hope our Mirages don't turn into flying coffins like IAF jaguars, these air frames are getting old.



you mean Mig21? Jags are pretty safe aircraft AFAIK... I may be wrong though.


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## Devil Soul

Geo also reporting that we have lost the pilot...


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## Jango

1ndy said:


> you mean Mig21? Jags are pretty safe aircraft AFAIK... I may be wrong though.



Yeah sorry, MiG 21.


----------



## Tayyab1796

I can now confirm the name of the Pilot , since the loss is a bit personal as well, Sqn Ldr .Bilal Hassan Babri , my one year senior at PAF College Sargodha ,and one of the most smiling and larger then life individuals I know has embraced Shahadat. May ALLAH ALMIGHTY reward him ...amen ,... Babri (as we used to call him) keep smiling ...

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## Bratva

4-6 Sq.LD we lost in these 2 years? And i think it is 7th or 8th crash of this year?


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## Xeric

Squadron Leader Bilal Babri Shaheed.. Nov,22/2012
may Allah rest his soul in peace..Aameen

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## Xeric

Squadron Leader Bilal Babri Shaheed

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## MilSpec

RIP brave pilot, which a/c was it?


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## Safriz

So sad to lose another brave soldier of the nation.....
Pakistan's defense needs are so demanding under current circumstances that they have to keep up and running every last piece of metal they got...
Mirages should have been phased out years ago..But where is the money to do that...


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## Luftwaffe

Safriz said:


> So sad to lose another brave soldier of the nation.....
> Pakistan's defense needs are so demanding under current circumstances that they have to keep up and running every last piece of metal they got...Mirages should have been phased out years ago..But where is the money to do that...



My Friend as long as a corrupt government is in place Armed Forces will never get their fair share of budget.

RIP May Allah give his family patience and strength.

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## Jango

It was a Mirage that took off from PAF Rafiqui apparently. The aircraft caught fire in the air according to witnesses (bird strike, engine malfunction?) and crashed. The wreckage was on fire. The pilot didn't seem to eject apparently.


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## VCheng

Luftwaffe said:


> My Friend as long as a corrupt government is in place *Armed Forces will never get their fair share of budget.*
> 
> RIP May Allah give his family patience and strength.



Please define "fair share" as the Armed Forces already get a quarter of the budget, which is about eight times health and education put together (roughly). What seems "fair" to you, my dear Sir?

May the fallen warrior rest in eternal peace.

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## Last Hope

Just got to know the news that a PAF aircraft went down at near Jhang range and pilot is dead. Inna Lilahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Rajioon. That's sad. 

I believe the aircraft to be F-7P on the nature of sortie and point of loss.


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## alibaz

May Allah rest his soul in eternal peace. We are proud of you brave soldier.


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## Last Hope

Been told that aircraft was Mirage.. Trying to confirm from other sources.


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## Windjammer

Some reports say it was a Mirage, others report it as a training aircraft.


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## Safriz

Windjammer said:


> Some reports say it was a Mirage, others report it as a training aircraft.



Thal range is used by all type of PAF aircrafts for training..They go there and drop bombs almost everyday...


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## Rajput_Pakistani

Squadron Leader Bilal Babri Shaheed
May His soul rest in heaven.


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## Thorough Pro

So sad. May Allah bless his soul, grant him eternal peace and give courage to his family.


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## karan.1970

why would a Sq Leader be flying a training aircraft solo ?


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## alibaz

karan.1970 said:


> why would a Sq Leader be flying a training aircraft solo ?


Would not be training aircraft, it should be training mission.


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## shanipisces2002

Another Brave Soul of Pakistan lost May Allah bless him and give courage to his family members Amen


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## Tehmasib

sad news ...May His soul rest in heaven.


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## Viper0011.

Tayyab1796 said:


> I can now confirm the name of the Pilot , since the loss is a bit personal as well, Sqn Ldr .Bilal Hassan Babri , my one year senior at PAF College Sargodha ,and one of the most smiling and larger then life individuals I know has embraced Shahadat. May ALLAH ALMIGHTY reward him ...amen ,... Babri (as we used to call him) keep smiling ...



May he rest in peace and God will have mercy on his soul. I have a question, since this is like the sixth accident (or more?) in less than a few years, why does the PAF not ground the fleet of F-7 for a complete review? My understanding is that some of these airframes are not that old and were sent from China around 2002 standoff with India...?? It's sad to see so much ongoing talent loss!!

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## Riz

May His soul rest in heaven

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## fjavaid

riz1978 said:


> May His soul rest in heaven



Very Sad News. May his soul rest in Peace and ALLAH grant patience to his family n frndz

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## killerx

Inna Lilahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Rajioon  

need to replace these crap jets fast


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

6 Sqdrn ldrs dead in air crashes----that's a serious issue---.


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## Najam Khan

VCheng said:


> Please define "fair share" as the Armed Forces *already get a quarter of the budget, which is about eight times health and education put together (roughly). *What seems "fair" to you, my dear Sir?
> 
> May the fallen warrior rest in eternal peace.



Budget allocation announcement and transfer of funds to their rightful owners are two different things. Generally most of the allocated funds are 6-8 months late, and military has 6-4months to put them in use before the files of PAC haunt them.

Regarding your point about 'quarter of budget', its less than that...you can find statement of COAS on this topic.


> Jacobabad - Pakistan&#8217;s army chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani has said that *only 18 per cent of country&#8217;s total budget *is allocated for armed forces while wrong facts and figures are quoted in TV talk shows in this regard.



Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Defence budget only 18%: Kayani | Pakistan Today | Latest news | Breaking news | Pakistan News | World news | Business | Sport and Multimedia

Eagles of Pakistan 18 % of total budget is allocated for Pakistan Army

Defence budget only 18pc not 70pc: Kayani | PAKISTAN DEFENCE NEWS BLOG | Pakarmedforces.com

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## VCheng

Najam Khan said:


> ..........
> 
> Regarding your point about 'quarter of budget', its less than that...you can find statement of COAS on this topic.................



Never mind the COAS. Please read the official document:

http://www.finance.gov.pk/budget/Budget_in_Brief_2012_13.pdf

I stand by my assertion of 25% defense expenditure.

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## Najam Khan

very tragic...
The aircraft belonged to No.25 Sqn, most probable a Mirage-VEF.


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## Last Hope

Najam Khan said:


> very tragic...
> The aircraft belonged to No.25 Sqn, most probable a *Mirage-VEF.*



Yes.. Confirmed that from a officer who knew Bilal Babri..


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## Rajput_Pakistani

VCheng said:


> Please define "fair share" as the Armed Forces already get a quarter of the budget, which is about eight times health and education put together (roughly). What seems "fair" to you, my dear Sir?
> 
> May the fallen warrior rest in eternal peace.



Sir, defense budget is combine for Army, Navy, Air Force and other organizations like Airport Security Force. The other thing is that in Pakistan the Education and Health is a Provincial matter. Combine the health & education budget of all 5 provinces+federal amount reserved for education & health. Then you wouldn't say that Pakistan's defense budget is 8 times the budget of health & education. I hope you will clarify your figures now.


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## THE MASK

Man I hate this thread...

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## VCheng

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Sir, defense budget is combine for Army, Navy, Air Force and other organizations like Airport Security Force. The other thing is that in Pakistan the Education and Health is a Provincial matter. Combine the health & education budget of all 5 provinces+federal amount reserved for education & health. Then you wouldn't say that Pakistan's defense budget is 8 times the budget of health & education. I hope you will clarify your figures now.



Let us respect the fallen warriors and not take this thread off topic, please.

We can discuss the budgetary allocations elsewhere, I am sure.

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## SLR722

May his soul rest in peace.. Ameen


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## SLR722

it was in the news that pilot had ejected before crash..


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## Xeric

VCheng said:


> Never mind the COAS. Please read the official document:
> 
> http://www.finance.gov.pk/budget/Budget_in_Brief_2012_13.pdf
> 
> I stand by my assertion of 25% defense expenditure.



You know what, i am weak in maths, so why dont you tell us how did you reach the figure of 25% def exp? As a starter, please use the document that you have provided.

P.S. i can only hope that you are sensible enough to differentiate between Army, Armed Forces, Pensions, Defence Services, Defence Administration and the Defence Affairs and Services?

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## VCheng

Xeric said:


> You know what, i am weak in maths, so why dont you tell us how did you reach the figure of 25% def exp? As a starter, please use the document that you have provided.
> 
> P.S. i can only hope that you are sensible enough to differentiate between Army, Armed Forces, Pensions, Defence Services, Defence Administration and the Defence Affairs and Services?




I have already done that elsewhere Sir. Please do make the effort to look that up.

I will not take this thread for fallen warriors off topic.


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## Xeric

VCheng said:


> I have already done that elsewhere Sir. Please do make the effort to look that up.


Unfortunately, you are not the most beloved person on PDF, and unlike FB i cant subscribe to your 'valuable' posts either, so why dont you make a little more effort and make it easy for me by directing towards the worthy post of yours?



> I will not take this thread for fallen warriors off topic.



You already did that when you took on the post where the mention of def budget was made first. Had you been so worried about the fallen, you would have had held your beak, but you didnt!

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## Safriz

What are the directives to PAF pilots for ejection?
Are they reluctant to bail out in case of emergency?


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## Archie

Xeric said:


> Squadron Leader Bilal Babri Shaheed



Its just Sad , 
and the guys got a kid too


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## Jango

Safriz said:


> Are they reluctant to bail out in case of emergency?



Alot of variables. It could have been anything which prevented the pilot from ejecting. G-forces, population below, unconsciousness, anything.


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## VCheng

Xeric said:


> Unfortunately, you are not the most beloved person on PDF, and unlike FB i cant subscribe to your 'valuable' posts either, so why dont you make a little more effort and make it easy for me by directing towards the worthy post of yours?



Beloved or not, I do not care. I do, and will, speak out the truth.

Here you go Sir, and we can take up the discussion elsewhere more appropriately:



VCheng said:


> 77% of the budget is taken up as follows:
> 
> Debt servicing is 1140 billion, 44%.
> 
> Defense budget is 648.2 billion (estimated) as follows, 25%:
> 
> Defense Affairs and Services = 545 billion
> Military Pensions = 98 billion
> PAEC = 40 billion
> Defence Division = 3.2 billion
> Defence Production Division = 2 billion
> 
> Subsidies are 208 billion, 8%.
> 
> Everything else gets the remaining 23%.





Xeric said:


> You already did that when you took on the post where the mention of def budget was made first. Had you been so worried about the fallen, you would have had held your beak, but you didnt!



Yeah, how dare someone take on any comment that supports only your myopic point of view? Your arrogance is clear from your derogatory use of the word "beak" to belittle my views simply because I dare to question the BS. I have the same oral orifice you have, and perhaps a brain too, but you may or may not have that. Please enlighten me. 

Here are the posts, and I did pay my respects too. You can blame your JrTT for bringing up the budget in the first place.



Luftwaffe said:


> My Friend as long as a corrupt government is in place Armed Forces will never get their fair share of budget.
> 
> RIP May Allah give his family patience and strength.





VCheng said:


> Please define "fair share" as the Armed Forces already get a quarter of the budget, which is about eight times health and education put together (roughly). What seems "fair" to you, my dear Sir?
> 
> *May the fallen warrior rest in eternal peace*.


----------



## Leo7

It was due to Pak air force is using now old aircrafts replacement of these aircrafts is going on by jf 17 inshallah in this accident will not repeat.


----------



## Xeric

VCheng said:


> Defense budget is 648.2 billion (estimated) as follows, 25%:


BS.
Heres why:


> Defense Affairs and Services = 545 billion


Thats the actual defence budget, which makes 20.8% of the total National Budget.
Analyzing this figure critically reveals that Defense Affairs and Services head includes two sub-heads namely Defence Services (543 billion) and Defence Administration (1.5 billion). Now if we make use of our brain a little more, we can probably understand that anything which is prefixed or suffixed with word Defence doesnt automatically becomes Defence Budget. I could have clarified this more, but for the sake of clarity, I wont worry about a 1.5 billion when we are discussing a figure of 550 billion and thus would let you include it in the defence budget.

Now, the point to be noted is that this 545 billion includes EVERYTHING from the defence services (actual armed forces) to the Minsitry of Defence which comprises mostly of civilians and not uniforms, and the maintenance, running expenses, foreign procurement concerning the military, schools, housing and even organizations like the Airport Security Force which infact are civil armed forces like the FC and Rangers.

Another point to be noted is that one of the LARGEST schooling system in Pakistan i.e. APSACS is also run and maintained from within the Defence budget which provide education to the kins of 0.6 million Pakistanis. Also, from within the same defence budget and elaborate system of housing and civic facilities (cantonments) is also maintained for the Pakistanis with a difference that these poor guys wear a khaki colored uniform.

Same goes for heath services in CMHs vis-a-vis Civil hospitals.

Now, if realistically considered and if one uses your own formula of including everything attached with the word defence inside the defence budget, these three heads (schooling, health and housing) are infact assisting Pakistan as regards to education and provision of social services and similar to its counterparts which are serviced by the Education, Health or Housing Budget, an issue about which you seem quite concerned all the time.

In short, whereas the money used for these schools, houses or hospitals is debited to the Defence Head, the services provided are for Pakistanis which otherwise are the responsibility of the Federal Government and the politicians if they were not part of the Defence Services i.e. in the overall scheme of affairs, it is a Pakistani at the end of the day who benefits with education, medical facilities and residences.

Hence, your worry about Pakistanis having fewer budgets for education and health should get soothed to an extent, if not completely settled.

Bottom line: Though the defence budget allows people like to moan, but still a hefty portion of it is expended over the same services, for lack of which you people use to object the defence expenditures.

Kinda facepalmed, no?

Still, I wont worry much about the above facts, as what I am going to say ahead is the real meat.



> Military Pensions = 98 billion


Military Pensions cannot be included inside the Defence Budget as it becomes States responsibility to sustain retirees as they no more are servicing the armed forces.

I think you missed that the same documents also mentions Civil Pensions SEPARATELY:




[/url] Capture by Khakiate, on Flickr[/IMG]

Why do you think it is like that?

Now I wonder, where would you put these 31 billion earmarked 'separately' for civilians i.e. in the favor or against the people of Pakistan?

Lastly, the following should push some sense into you:




[/url] Pensions by Khakiate, on Flickr[/IMG]

Xeric's Primer: Information Brief by Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR)



> PAEC = 40 billion




Since when Pak Atomic Commission became part of Defence (budget)?

I mean, tomorrow you may also include WAPDAs budget into the defence budget so that you can justify your figure of 25%?

PAEC is a Public Sector organization providing civic facilities to Pakistanis.

Heres what PAEC actually is:
_
The Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, is an administrative governmental and autonomous science and technology governmental department of Pakistan, responsible for development of nuclear energy and development of nuclear power sector in Pakistan.
The primary purpose of PAEC is to control the peaceful development of Nuclear technology as well as development of reactor technology in the country. Over the years, the PAEC has built an extensive infrastructure for contributing to the economic uplift of the country. And, it has established nuclear medicine research centres mainly focusing on cancer by using the technology of Nuclear medicines. (maybe according to VCheng, research in the field of medicine and techonlgy is detrimental to the health of Pakistan)._

Here is the FUNCTION of PAEC:

_*Functions*
-Programmes to develop nuclear power and fuel-cycle facilities.

-Promotion of use of radiation and radio-isotopes in agriculture, medicine and industry.

-Research, development and training of manpower to support the programmes of nuclear power and radio-isotope applications._

I wonder how does production of electricity and medical research fall under defence?


BTW, budget for PAEC is debited to PSDP head and not to defence according to the same document you have used to justify your figures. Wake up, dude!




> Defence Division = 3.2 billion



Allocation for Defence Divisions falls under PSDP NOT the facking Defence Budget!!!

Looks like our worthy VCheng has no idea what PSDP actually is?

Here, allow me to educate you:

_Public Sector investment encompasses development expenditure undertaken by the Federal Government through Federal PSDP, Provincial Governments through Annual Development Programs (ADPs) and other organizations of federal and provincial governments to support resource mobilization for various development projects/ programs in different sectors of the economy. The Public Sector Corporations/Companies like Water & Power Development Authority (WAPDA), Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), Oil & Gas Development Company Ltd (OGDCL), Karachi Port Trust (KPT), Port Qasim Authority (PQA), Pak-Steels, Pakistan International Airlines (PIA), Pakistan State Oil (PSO) and others also mobilize their own resources from domestic and external resources to supplement the governments efforts for development.
PSDP helps achieve the objectives and targets set by the government, to bring about a structural change towards sustainable and higher growth, achieving the MDGs and reducing poverty with measurable economic development. PSDP also helps achieve the governments socio-economic objectives envisaged for development of the common people._
Public Sector Development Programmes Main Page

BTW, heres what the Defence Division for which Rs 3.2 billions have been earmarked would do with the money:




[/url] DD1 by Khakiate, on Flickr[/IMG]



[/url] DD2 by Khakiate, on Flickr[/IMG]



[/url] DD3 by Khakiate, on Flickr[/IMG]

http://www.pc.gov.pk/psdp/psdp-2012-13/defence.pdf

Now if construction of Cyclone early waring system, Seismic Network, Gawadar International Airport or Meteorological systems is detrimental to Pakistan then i can only pray for you Cheng, nothing else. You must understand what the Defence "Division" actually is and what its 'real' purpose is. Just because a particular project is managed by the Defence Division and in turn money allotted to it is prefixed by the word "defence", it doesnt mean that it is part of defence budget!!

Otherwise, it was quite clear from the budget document you yourself have provided that the budget for Defence Division is debited to PSDP and NOT the defence budget, but whom am i kidding with?



> Defence Production Division = 2 billion


Allocation for Defence Divisions falls under PSDP NOT the Defence Budget. Ref your own budget document.

Here's what Def Production Division, which is being allotted Rs 2 billion from the* PSDP head* and which you have 'added' to the defence budget at your own, is doing with the money:




[/url] DP by Khakiate, on Flickr[/IMG]

http://www.pc.gov.pk/psdp/psdp-2012-13/defence_productions.pdf

So, here's where we stand:

1) The actual defence budget for fiscal year 2012-13 is Rs 545 billion which makes 20.8% of the National budget, or it makes 16.4% of the National budget if we take into account the total outlay of budget 2012-13, which is Rs 3,203 billion.

2) Pensions are not part of Defence Budget.

3) Budget for Defence Division and Defence Production Division are debited to PSDP and not the defence head as these division manages PSDP projects which doesnot fall in the domain of defence - a mere function of common sense.

4) How the eff can Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission which produces electricity and do medical research fall under the defence budget when the same budget document which you have used to 'justify' your claim mentions the allocation to PAEC under the head of PSDP? _Keera_, perhaps?

5) The Rs 545 billion includes maintenance and running of social services like schooling, medical and housing which in turn assist the actual Education, Health and Housing Budget i.e. a portion of defence budget is actually spent on these items and thus adds up to the over expenditure over education, health and housing, which otherwise is the responsibility of any government i.e. what if there was no military, these 0.6 million humans (Pakistanis) were to be employed and fed by the government then too.

6) Lastly, just as some e-warrior who uses the moniker of superman on PDF doesnt mean that he actually is a superman, similarly just because the word 'defence' is attached to some budget head doesnt automatically means that it to included inside the defence budget.

*7) My maths isnt that bad, after all*

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## Rajput_Pakistani

^^^ Xeric kindly repost it in Member's area also.
Regards


----------



## VCheng

Xeric said:


> BS.
> Here&#8217;s why:
> 
> That&#8217;s the actual defence budget, which makes 20.8% of the total National Budget..................



Firstly, even 20.8% is more than the 18% figure quoted by the COAS.

Secondly, all that huffing andf puffing, and not realizing that I said Defence *EXPENDITURE*, not budgetary heads, which, as you amply demonstrate, can be disguised by many fraudulent explanations, such as PAEC makes electricity and medical isotopes, as if nuclear weaponry is made in Darra on the cheap. There are many more examples of the expenses being hidden in other heads, but that is another story entirely.

I stand by my estimate: *Pakistan's defence EXPENDITURE eats up a quarter of its budget, and this rate of spending is simply unsustainable.* And yes, that includes the pensions and satellites, but does not include bribes to politicians and others.

Now let's take this elsewhere, and not in this thread, please.

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## Xeric

VCheng said:


> Firstly, even 20.8% is more than the 18% figure quoted by the COAS.





The COAS' statement is from last years budget, the figures and the document you have posted pertains to the projected budget of fiscal year 2012-13 



> Secondly, all that huffing andf puffing, and not realizing that I said Defence *EXPENDITURE*, not budgetary heads,



Yeah right... 

_Jaanay day_ Cheng ji.


> which, as you amply demonstrate, can be disguised by many fraudulent explanations, such as PAEC makes electricity and medical isotopes, as if nuclear weaponry is made in Darra on the cheap. There are many more examples of the expenses being hidden in other heads, but that is another story entirely.


Haha...right.

So PAEC is now a defence organization, great! Tomorrow railway, Pak Steel and PIA would also start making missiles, guns and fighters jets respectively, if it were to be left to you.

And nothing is hidden. You aint smarter than the financial critics who spew BS 24/7 on tv channels and newspapers. If anything had been hidden, they would already have pointed it out, as they did in the case of military pensions, but they were facepalmed exactly in the same as you have been, but as they were smarter than, you don't open their beaks without thinking now, you on the other hand, am not sure of.


PSDP is PSDP, Defence Budget is Defence Budget. I mean Chaudary Nisar is an idiot, granted, but he is not stupid.

Retarded accusations like military pensions are shown in a separate head is one thing, totally placing portions of defence budget under a totally unrelated head like that of PSDP is another and down right stupid and believing these deliberately propagated BS by your likes to be true is even more retarded!



> I stand by my estimate:


Keep on standing on it, may be one day you'll finally grow up 



> Pakistan's defence EXPENDITURE eats up a quarter of its budget, and this rate of spending is simply unsustainable. And yes, that includes the pensions.


So, here we have Sir VCheng shaming fiscal giants and Nostradamus at the same time. Oh God, please, bless us all 



> Now let's take this elsewhere, and not in this thread, please.



^^ _Te Panga nahi laina see na...._

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## VCheng

Xeric said:


> ............
> _Jaanay day_ Cheng ji....................
> ^^ _Te Panga nahi laina see na...._



_Jaao jee, tuhanoon maaf keeta!_ 

May be someday you will come to accept my estimate of a quarter of the budget as the defense expenditure, but more likely _poora mulk jal jaye gaa magar fajioon kee akkar nahi jaye gee._

Nothing is hidden? 

PS: I expect a one-sided deletion of posts soon, leaving only your point of view unchallenged under the rules for off topic posts applied to my posts only. 

========================

Back to the topic: *May the pilot of the crashed plane rest in peace.*


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## Muradk

Most of the time civilian's are not told the reason for the crash. My experience most of them go down because of Pilot error. Just because the poor soul has left us doesn't mean that he was perfect. We all make mistakes the only problem is that in this arena of Fighter Flying one mistake means meeting your maker. He took off from Shorkot for a night bombing mission .
The mission required him to fly low 99.9% he was to much into his target and did not concentrate on his height and hit the ground.

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## VCheng

Muradk said:


> Most of the time civilian's are not told the reason for the crash. My experience most of them go down because of Pilot error.* Just because the poor soul has left us doesn't mean that he was perfect. *We all make mistakes the only problem is that in this arena of Fighter Flying one mistake means meeting your maker. He took off from Shorkot for a night bombing mission .
> The mission required him to fly low 99.9% he was to much into his target and did not concentrate on his height and hit the ground.



You are correct in that often adulation leads us to overlook a person's faults and mistakes, whether military or civil. However, in Pakistan, there is often a conscious attempt to maintain the aura of perfection around the military by covering up any information to the contrary, which, ironically in the long run, is more detrimental than honesty would have been in the first place.

No offence intended to the fallen pilot or anyone else, Sir.

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## Donatello

Please don't post the pictures of the families. Respect the privacy.

Also, why are pilots unable to eject? PAF needs to come out with truth this time.


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## VCheng

Donatello said:


> Please don't post the pictures of the families. Respect the privacy.
> 
> Also, why are pilots unable to eject? *PAF needs to come out with truth this time*.



Why just this time? PAF needs to come out with the truth every time. That is how the system improves, if that is the goal.


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## JonAsad

RIP the pilot-


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## Windjammer

Muradk said:


> Most of the time civilian's are not told the reason for the crash. My experience most of them go down because of Pilot error. Just because the poor soul has left us doesn't mean that he was perfect. We all make mistakes the only problem is that in this arena of Fighter Flying one mistake means meeting your maker. He took off from Shorkot for a night bombing mission .
> The mission required him to fly low 99.9% he was to much into his target and did not concentrate on his height and hit the ground.



That's understandable sir, pilot disorientation specially in the dark is a major risk factor but in this case, witnesses have allegedly described as the aircraft being on fire before crashing into the ground. ??

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## Safriz

@Muradk.
Welcome back

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## Muradk

Windjammer said:


> That's understandable sir, pilot disorientation specially in the dark is a major risk factor but in this case, witnesses have allegedly described as the aircraft being on fire before crashing into the ground. ??



Friend I am sitting so far away I only posted what was told to me in the first 30 min. Hopefully we will know by monday what happend.
mk

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## Meejee

Inna Lilahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Rajioon

May the departed soul RIP

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## Kompromat

@Muradk - Welcome back sir, been missing you a lot

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## araz

Muradk said:


> Friend I am sitting so far away I only posted what was told to me in the first 30 min. Hopefully we will know by monday what happend.
> mk



Welcome back Sir.
Your contributions have been missed. Hope to see more of them.
Araz

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## Devil Soul

*Inna Lilahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Rajioon*

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## Safriz

Sir @Muradk a friend of yours @Skywalker has been missing you

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## rockstarIN

RIP to the pilot


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## Windjammer

Devil Soul said:


> *Inna Lilahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Rajioon*



The pilot is wearing an F-7 patch.....the report said that he was martyred in a Mirage crash. !!


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> The pilot is wearing an F-7 patch.....the report said that he was martyred in a Mirage crash. !!



Maybe be he got promoted? What is the rank he is wearing right now in this pic?

He was from 25 Sqn. And 25 Sqn operates only Mirages as far as I know.


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Maybe be he got promoted? What is the rank he is wearing right now in this pic?
> 
> He was from 25 Sqn. And 25 Sqn operates only Mirages as far as I know.



He was a Flight Lt. in the picture, but he achieved martyrdom as a Sqn Ldr. !!


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## khail007

Muradk said:


> Most of the time civilian's are not told the reason for the crash. My experience most of them go down because of Pilot error. Just because the poor soul has left us doesn't mean that he was perfect. We all make mistakes the only problem is that in this arena of Fighter Flying one mistake means meeting your maker. He took off from Shorkot for a night bombing mission .
> The mission required him to fly low 99.9% he was to much into his target and did not concentrate on his height and hit the ground.



Sir, I heard that in day bombing/straffing training missions there are 'Mobile Officers' (which are actually pilots) are appointed to keep an eye on the outlook of the aircrafts involved and to warn the pilots on such 'target fixation'. If it is true then for such night missions, is there any alternative to that?


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## SEAL

* &#1575;&#1606;&#1575; &#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1575;&#1606;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;*
Very sad to heard that news another precious loss, why didn't he ejected? 
Why this happening again and again i think its same old mentality if you die in uniform you are martyr, qoom ka sarmaya iftikhar yeh jahaz boht qeemti ha and our pilots try to save facking aircraft until it hits the ground.
Their lives are more important thats what we need to teach them.


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## Muradk

khail007 said:


> Sir, I heard that in day bombing/straffing training missions there are 'Mobile Officers' (which are actually pilots) are appointed to keep an eye on the outlook of the aircrafts involved and to warn the pilots on such 'target fixation'. If it is true then for such night missions, is there any alternative to that?



No alternative.

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## mirza555

melb4aust said:


> yeah you are right, it is sad and as well proud for a nation that their pilots risk their own lives to protect the life lives of others.
> I wish i could salute those guys:army: .
> ​


u are 100% rite


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## Pakistanisage

Muradk said:


> Most of the time civilian's are not told the reason for the crash. My experience most of them go down because of Pilot error. Just because the poor soul has left us doesn't mean that he was perfect. We all make mistakes the only problem is that in this arena of Fighter Flying one mistake means meeting your maker. He took off from Shorkot for a night bombing mission .
> The mission required him to fly low 99.9% he was to much into his target and did not concentrate on his height and hit the ground.




Innal laha wa inna alayhi rajeoun.


Sir MuradK why do we still practice low level flying when enemy Awacs can pick up the aircrafts on their Radar ?

Is there still some advantage of such practice of flying low level ?

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## IND151

*A Pakistan Air Force training plane crashed in Hasnainabad area of Shakir Kot in Jhang district on Thursday, killing the pilot.*A PAF spokesman confirmed the incident, saying the plane was on a routine training mission when it crashed near Thal Firing Range. He said there was report about the martyrdom of pilot of the aircraft. However, the spokesperson did not state causes of the crash.The locals are reported to be saying that they saw the aircraft before it plunged to the ground. They saw fire was erupting from the jet before the crash.According to sources, rescue workers pulled a body from the wreckage of the aircraft.

PAF&#8217;s &#8221; Flying Coffin &#8221; Mirage aircraft crashes near Jhang, pilot killed | idrw.org

*RIP to the pilot*


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## Windjammer

IND151 said:


> PAFs  Flying Coffin  Mirage aircraft crashes near Jhang, pilot killed | *idrw*.org
> 
> *RIP to the pilot*



Indian Defence Research, talking about flying coffins is like pot calling the kettle black. Wonder where they got the inspiration from.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> Indian Defence Research, talking about flying coffins is like pot calling the kettle black. Wonder where they got the inspiration from.



Lets face the reality ! Our jets really are turning out to be FLYING COFFINS, just look at the rate of crashes in recent years. I guess more pilots have killed during recent years than ever in PAF history.


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## Windjammer

danger-zone said:


> Lets face the reality ! Our jets really are turning out to be FLYING COFFINS, just look at the rate of crashes in recent years. I guess more pilots have killed during recent years than ever in PAF history.



But unlike the Indian MiG-21s, it's not just been one type to be singled out....nor are the same reasons...I.E...human error. !!

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## Najam Khan

danger-zone said:


> Lets face the reality ! Our jets really are turning out to be FLYING COFFINS, just look at the rate of crashes in recent years. I guess more pilots have killed during recent years than ever in PAF history.



Sometimes are good sometimes are bad, unfortunately AF is going through a bad patch because of such incidents and causalities. But the situation is too overly stated or wrongly interpreted at reader's end as well...Aging fleet is not always the reason behind the crash.

In all the recent crashes mostly were merely bad luck or slight miscalculation at pilots part, some were birdhits and FOD (which is and will remain no.1 threat for PAF).


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## Jango

An aircraft isn't declared fit to fly unless it isn't. If an aircraft is cleared to leave it's shelter and takeoff in the air force, it means that it can do the job and fly safely and come back.

Most crashes are due to pilot error, bird strike, FOD< and yes in some cases it does so happen that a technical fault happened.

We shouldn't be jumping to conclusions about the crash, and hold on to our horses.


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## Bratva

Najam Khan said:


> Sometimes are good sometimes are bad, unfortunately AF is going through a bad patch because of such incidents and causalities. But the situation is too overly stated or wrongly interpreted at reader's end as well...Aging fleet is not always the reason behind the crash.
> 
> In all the recent crashes mostly were merely bad luck or slight miscalculation at pilots part, some were birdhits and FOD (which is and will remain no.1 threat for PAF).





nuclearpak said:


> An aircraft isn't declared fit to fly unless it isn't. If an aircraft is cleared to leave it's shelter and takeoff in the air force, it means that it can do the job and fly safely and come back.
> 
> Most crashes are due to pilot error, bird strike, FOD< and yes in some cases it does so happen that a technical fault happened.
> 
> We shouldn't be jumping to conclusions about the crash, and hold on to our horses.



The bad part about these crashes are we lost 5-6 SQ.Leaders in 2011-2012 year. 1 due to unconfirmed FOD (JF-17), one due to technical fault in turkey, 3-4 Sq.Leaders due to human error. 3 sq.leaders in that mushaq training aircraft mishap and one Sq.leader in this mirage crash.

No airforce has ever lost such experienced pilots in such time.


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## Najam Khan

nuclearpak said:


> An aircraft isn't declared fit to fly unless it isn't. If an aircraft is cleared to leave it's shelter and takeoff in the air force, it means that it can do the job and fly safely and come back.
> Most crashes are due to pilot error, bird strike, *FOD<* and yes in some cases it does so happen that a technical fault happened.


Regarding FOD, its still the no.1 threat for PAF. Each yr they cost 10million USD$ (thats an official count). 



mafiya said:


> *The bad part about these crashes are we lost 5-6 SQ.Leaders* in 2011-2012 year. 1 due to unconfirmed FOD (JF-17), one due to technical fault in turkey, 3-4 Sq.Leaders due to human error. 3 sq.leaders in that mushaq training aircraft mishap and one Sq.leader in this mirage crash.
> 
> No airforce has ever lost such experienced pilots in such time.


Yes, indeed loss of precious life has no compensation.


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## Jango

Najam Khan said:


> Regarding FOD, its still the no.1 threat for PAF. Each yr they cost 10million USD$ (thats an official count).



Yeah, that's why there is a FOD walk/drill every other day/week (depending on season and other factors), and the whole base walks the runway and taxiways to check for it. (well the older officers just move around chit chatting!!!). Everybody longs for the time that DCO (duty carried out) is conveyed to the base commander!!!

Something like this.

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## Gessler

Windjammer said:


> Indian Defence Research, talking about flying coffins is like pot calling the kettle black. Wonder where they got the inspiration from.



What a pathetic response. A pilot died and all you can think of India, India, India.

Atleast pay some homage for those guys up there in the those decades-old Mirages crashing at rate of
1 per month. Is there any no. available as to how many Mirages of PAF have crashed so far and how many
ac were actually inducted since the beginning?

Anyway RIP to pilot.

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## Windjammer

gessler said:


> What a pathetic response. A pilot died and all you can think of India, India, India.
> 
> Atleast pay some homage for those guys up there in the those decades-old Mirages crashing at rate of
> 1 per month. Is there any no. available as to how many Mirages of PAF have crashed so far and how many
> ac were actually inducted since the beginning?
> 
> Anyway RIP to pilot.



My reply was to the Indian member who couldn't resist posting an Indian link on a several days old news. !!


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## Gessler

Windjammer said:


> My reply was to the Indian member who couldn't resist posting an Indian link on a several days old news. !!



I don't think it matters whether its Indian link or Pakistani link. Im pretty sure the IDRW link didn't
add anything exaggerating or intensifying in the common sense of the world, nothing like Pak's state-run
media source thrashing ALH Dhruv will messed up news and ill-sourced info after the Ecuador crash
(which was actually due to pilot error).

Mirage IS a flying coffin today

You're response was comical and childish. Flying coffin is just a term used to name a frequently-crashing
ac, the USMC Harrier AV-8B is called widow-maker after 50% of the fleet crashed in just 30 yrs.


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## Trisonics

Windjammer said:


> But unlike the Indian MiG-21s, it's not just been one type to be singled out....nor are the same reasons...I.E...human error. !!



That would be a cause for great concern, since whatever the reasons causing these crashes, maintenance or pilot training is a blanket-problem with the force while India's problem only seems to be narrowed down to one plane which it will replace eventually.


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## Windjammer

gessler said:


> I don't think it matters whether its Indian link or Pakistani link. Im pretty sure the IDRW link didn't
> add anything exaggerating or intensifying in the common sense of the world, nothing like Pak's state-run
> media source thrashing ALH Dhruv will messed up news and ill-sourced info after the Ecuador crash
> (which was actually due to pilot error).
> 
> Mirage IS a flying coffin today
> 
> You're response was comical and childish. Flying coffin is just a term used to name a frequently-crashing
> ac, the USMC Harrier AV-8B is called widow-maker after 50% of the fleet crashed in just 30 yrs.



Dude it was the original Hawker Sidley Harrier which became known as the widow maker, the Americans perfected it to a great extent in fact improvised on it.....don't know about the USMC, but IN has lost over half of it's fleet of Naval Harriers, which unlike the USMC, never once fired in anger. !!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

gessler said:


> What a pathetic response. A pilot died and all you can think of India, India, India.
> 
> Atleast pay some homage for those guys up there in the those decades-old Mirages crashing at rate of
> 1 per month. Is there any no. available as to how many Mirages of PAF have crashed so far and how many
> ac were actually inducted since the beginning?
> 
> Anyway RIP to pilot.



Yeah, and we all know the crash rate of those bisons! How many have you lost in the past 5 years alone (forget since induction!)

And we don't need Indian on net to remind us to pay homage to one of our own fallen sons of the pure soil. The last few pages have been devoted. Windjammer was just pointing out the ludicrous nature of your "defence orgs" who call the Mirage a flying coffin when this very term was coined by families of dead Indian pilots who lobbied to have bisons grounded - considering they have been and will continue to fall out of the sky due to HALs brilliance at aircraft maintenance.

To even compare both air forces incidents would be idiotic. Numbers speak for themselves! Not to say that the mirages aren't old (most of Em) and are ready for phasing out. 

I think your country would be better served by trying at least to produce capable and competent defence analysts



Regards

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## HRK

If someone have not posted this link earlier....... 

*Chronological Listing of Pakistani Losses & Ejections (1953-2009)*

Pakistan

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## Last Hope

HAMMAD REHMAN KHAN said:


> If someone have not posted this link earlier.......
> 
> *Chronological Listing of Pakistani Losses & Ejections (1953-2009)*
> 
> Pakistan



It's a great website managed by Mike who is also regular visitor on this forum. Kudos to him for maintaining a regulary updated website personally.

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## unicorn

Although the findings of the JFT crash will never be made public but there is one news regarding the martin Baker seats that is gone unheard this year which is related to the F-35 program.Obviously one cannot assume to co relate between the two news but just high-lighting it. 




> On 26 January, the F-35 Joint Program Office temporarily suspended high speed ground and flight operations at Edwards AFB, Calif., Eglin AFB, Fla. and Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-35 production facility in Fort Worth, Texas after discovering improperly packed parachutes in affected production and test aircraft.
> 
> The temporary suspension affects more than 15 aircraft that have received newer ejection seats. It does not apply to the 8 F-35 test aircraft at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md., which have an earlier version of the ejection seat with the properly packed parachutes.
> 
> The Martin Baker Aircraft Corporation supplies the aircraft ejection seats and the apparent cause was due to improperly drafted packing procedures in the -21 and -23 ejection seats. The parachutes packed in the head boxes of these seats were reversed 180 degrees from design during installation. The Joint Program Office is working with Lockheed Martin and its subcontractors, Martin Baker and BAE Systems to expeditiously repack the parachutes. It is estimated to take about 10 days until the first set of repacked parachutes will be available.
> 
> Six F-35A jets at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., are affected. The six F-35A and the three F-35B aircraft at Eglin AFB, Fla., are affected, however, the aircraft there are currently only performing ground testing and this can continue. The parachutes on those jets will be repacked correctly prior to the first flight at Eglin. Aircraft in production at Forth Worth are also affected but their parachutes will be repacked prior to the first acceptance flights.



*OLD NEWS*


> According to PAF spokesman, pilot Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain ejected successfully but the parachute failed to open properly.


JF-17 Thunder crashes in Attock, pilot killed - PakTribune


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## Safriz

Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > Geographical regions index > ASN Aviation Safety Database results


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## Windjammer

*R.I.P Brave Warrior. *

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## Muradk

Pakistanisage said:


> Innal laha wa inna alayhi rajeoun.
> 
> 
> Sir MuradK why do we still practice low level flying when enemy Awacs can pick up the aircrafts on their Radar ?
> 
> Is there still some advantage of such practice of flying low level ?



You are most welcome to ask any question but lets leave this thread and jump on PAF Qand A.

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## Pakistanisage

Muradk said:


> You are most welcome to ask any question but lets leave this thread and jump on PAF Qand A.





Thank you Sir.

I look forward to learning more about Fighter combat from you.

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## niaz

Muradk said:


> No alternative.



Very true Honourable MuradK. 

"More you sweat in peace, less you bleed in war" Sun Tzu. The art of war.

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## ice_man

12 crashed in 18 months!!! what is going on!!! is our training lacking or is it just the flying coffins our pilots are flying!


13 total crashes since MAY 2011!!


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## Windjammer

ice_man said:


> 12 crashed in 18 months!!! what is going on!!! is our training lacking or is it just the flying coffins our pilots are flying!
> 
> 
> 13 total crashes since MAY 2011!!



We are in a war like scenario.....daily flying sorties has increased as PAF launches strikes against militants.

More over some losses were unavoidable like the bird strikes or there was even the unfortunate mid-air collision between two Mashaq trainers....hence it wasn't all down to technical or maintenance issues. !!


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> *We are in a war like scenario.....daily flying sorties has increased as PAF launches strikes against militants.
> 
> More over some losses were unavoidable like the bird strikes or there was even the unfortunate mid-air collision between two Mashaq trainers....hence it wasn't all down to technical or maintenance issues. !!*



Ohhh please windy ... lets just put PAF patriotism aside. We are operating a large number of aging fleet and most of the crashes are mirage. As far as i know 3 to 4 birds were lost in Karachi and from here aircraft are not operated for strike missions in Tribal areas.

I won't hesitate calling old mirages Flying Coffins.


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## Last Hope

danger-zone said:


> Ohhh please windy ... lets just put PAF patriotism aside. We are operating a large number of aging fleet and most of the crashes are mirage. As far as i know 3 to 4 birds were lost in Karachi and from here aircraft are not operated for strike missions in Tribal areas.



The reason PAF crashes are increasing at an alarming rate and pilots are getting killed is because we are not getting the budget to buy any new fighter. It's been over 40 years operating these Mirage.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Last Hope said:


> The reason PAF crashes are increasing at an alarming rate and pilots are getting killed is because we are not getting the budget to buy any new fighter. It's been over 40 years operating these Mirage.



Thanks to Democracy ...


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

actually our inventory is quite old now , 
we need to bring some new jets , and other thing double engine jets are more safe as compared to single ones ........


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## Windjammer

danger-zone said:


> Ohhh please windy ... lets just put PAF patriotism aside. We are operating a large number of aging fleet and most of the crashes are mirage. As far as i know 3 to 4 birds were lost in Karachi and from here aircraft are not operated for strike missions in Tribal areas.
> 
> I won't hesitate calling old mirages Flying Coffins.



Dude i'm not saying that all the aircraft are in top nick.....obviously over the years they have had their fair share of ware and tare. The aircraft that crashed around Karachi may have not been flying any combat missions but it's worth remembering that the Mirage OCU is also based in Masroor. !!


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## ice_man

Windjammer said:


> We are in a war like scenario.....daily flying sorties has increased as PAF launches strikes against militants.
> 
> More over some losses were unavoidable like the bird strikes or there was even the unfortunate mid-air collision between two Mashaq trainers....hence it wasn't all down to technical or maintenance issues. !!



war like scenario....well USA is at WAR! we don't se them losing a plane a month! reason is we truly have flying coffins! Mirages have served us superbly for over 3 decades its time we retire them. time for us to move to J10s and JF-17s!

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## Irfan Baloch

ice_man said:


> ! reason is we truly have flying coffins! Mirages have served us superbly for over 3 decades its time we retire them. time for us to move to J10s and JF-17s!



good call
lets find the finds for them too, should we try asking PPP govt to halt stealing state money for the rest of its tenure?
I know expecting money back from Swiss accounts is a dream never coming true but maybe we will be able to save much for some new jets for the remainder of the time?
democracy is the best revenge yea? why not use this revenge against our adversaries?

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## Archie

The problem is that 3rd Generation Jets have an airframe like of 2000 Hrs or 20 Yrs 

But we see PAF like IAF flying them well beyond their expected life


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## Irfan Baloch

Archie said:


> The problem is that 3rd Generation Jets have an airframe like of 2000 Hrs or 20 Yrs
> 
> But we see PAF like IAF flying them well beyond their expected life



totally true,

when the French came few years ago on a visit them they were surprised that these decade old mirages were still able to fly. but they strongly advised to ground them because there is only much an airframe can take. 

issue is limited resources vs operational demands. and sometimes things dont turn out too well for aircraft and/ or the pilot


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## fatman17

November 14, 2011; the PAF JF-17 that crashed during a sortie from Kamra was ??-127.
January 25; the PAF FT-7P that crashed was from 19 Squadron.
July 5; delete reference to an unidentified PAF trainer crash - the aircraft involved was civilian Flightstar II SL microlight - AP-ZAK


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## Windjammer

ice_man said:


> war like scenario....well USA is at WAR! we don't se them losing a plane a month! reason is we truly have flying coffins! Mirages have served us superbly for over 3 decades its time we retire them. time for us to move to J10s and JF-17s!



If you must compare, then with the exception of say the F-16, most US fighters are twin engine machines...OTOH, while PAF has the distinction of flying the F-16 for 100,000 hours without an incident, the NLAF on the other hand once had the misfortune of over 20 F-16 losses for same the amount of flying.


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## ice_man

Irfan Baloch said:


> good call
> lets find the finds for them too, should we try asking PPP govt to halt stealing state money for the rest of its tenure?
> I know expecting money back from Swiss accounts is a dream never coming true but maybe we will be able to save much for some new jets for the remainder of the time?
> democracy is the best revenge yea? why not use this revenge against our adversaries?



sir even though i totally agree with you. that state money is being stolen left right and center! having said that not like the Musharraf government which ruled paksitan for almost a decade and was considered a key ally of the white house brokered us a deal for 100 used F-16s. 

all the procurment under him was also less than what we had truly deserved for putting our country in the line of fire! 

Sadly all our institutions are corrupt to the core including our armed forces.

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## Najam Khan

ice_man said:


> sir even though i totally agree with you. that state money is being stolen left right and center! having said that not like the *Musharraf government which ruled paksitan for almost a decade and was considered a key ally of the white house brokered us a deal for 100 used F-16s. *



Forget 100, he should not have delayed and dumped the 36 F-16 Block52 deal. That so called 'Earthquake rehabilitation' theory delayed delivery of 36 new +28 old F-16s deal. Today the Mirages and F-7s (not -PGs) we still see flying in numbers is because of all those things that happened from 2001-2007.

Regarding F-7 and Mirage crash rate, I think after seeing all that its time for PAF to dis-ban atleast 2 squadrons and replace them with one JF-17 unit, its not something new for them. 15 Sqn was disbanded for three years from August 1997-2000. Even if they dis-ban 3 units, and induct JF-17 in one they will still be able to achieve the desired strength of 20 units in a year (unlike IAF which needs few years to fill the gap in its required sqn strength).

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## shivansps

Irfan Baloch said:


> totally true,
> 
> when the French came few years ago on a visit them they were surprised that these decade old mirages were still able to fly. but they strongly advised to ground them because there is only much an airframe can take.
> 
> issue is limited resources vs operational demands. and sometimes things dont turn out too well for aircraft and/ or the pilot









40 years whiout a upgrade or anything, they still fly, not much and they are useless, but they fly...

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## Muradk

ice_man said:


> 12 crashed in 18 months!!! what is going on!!! is our training lacking or is it just the flying coffins our pilots are flying!
> 
> 
> 13 total crashes since MAY 2011!!



*Flight Safety Issues *


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## fatman17

some of the mirages (ca.68) and F-7 skybolts should be grounded / de-activated. these a/s are too old now.

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## Luftwaffe

fatman17 said:


> some of the mirages (ca.68) and F-7 skybolts should be grounded / de-activated. these a/s are too old now.



Sir, Mirage IIIs are now 54 Years old, without discussing Airframe Life/Variants the Aircraft has crossed 50 Years. We should have purchased M2000 from U.A.E in mid 2000s which now is too late [7 billion daily corruption why didn't PAF demand more budget under WOT pretext].

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## baqai

when ever this thread is bumped up it gives me goose bumps  it is one thread here which i HATE to see refreshed

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## Safriz

Luftwaffe said:


> Sir, Mirage IIIs are now 54 Years old, without discussing Airframe Life/Variants the Aircraft has crossed 50 Years. We should have purchased M2000 from U.A.E in mid 2000s which now is too late [7 billion daily corruption why didn't PAF demand more budget under WOT pretext].



Americans are still flying the harriers..
How old are the Harriers?


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## Luftwaffe

Safriz said:


> Americans are still flying the harriers...How old are the Harriers?



Hi, I Think you should read the complete development of Harrier II UK-US and the complete program many Airframes were built post 1980-1995, These Aircraft were extensively modernized and from scratched developed-manufactured.

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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> Sir, Mirage IIIs are now 54 Years old, without discussing Airframe Life/Variants the Aircraft has crossed 50 Years. We should have purchased M2000 from U.A.E in mid 2000s which now is too late [7 billion daily corruption why didn't PAF demand more budget under WOT pretext].



u mean qatar - they were only 8 examples for sales. what difference would they have made.


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## fatman17

Saturday, December 22, 2012 


*Pakistani drone crashes in northwest: officials*

PESHAWAR: A Pakistani reconnaissance drone has crashed in a restive northwestern tribal region after developing a technical fault, security officials said on Friday.
The unmanned military aircraft was on a surveillance mission when it came down on Thursday night in Azam Warsak area, west of Wana, the main town of the South Waziristan tribal region, a senior security official told AFP on condition of anonymity. Another official confirmed the crash and said that Taliban militants surrounded the site and later took possession of the wreckage. Pakistan manufactures its own small drones which the army, navy and air force use for reconnaissance and do not have the lethal capability of US drones which target militant hideouts in the country&#8217;s tribal regions. The US strikes are deeply unpopular in Pakistan, which says they violate its sovereignty and fan anti-US sentiment, but American officials are said to believe they are too important to give up. In July last year a Pakistan Navy drone crashed near an oil refinery in the suburbs of Karachi after hitting a bird while on a routine flight. afp

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## Safriz

^^^ Thats good news..
It confirms that Pakistani drones are up there watching the militants,and the borders.


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## fatman17

*Drone Strike, Drone Crash*

&#8226;A U.S. drone attack on Friday on a house in the Hassu Khel area of North Waziristan agency killed four suspected militants. The militants&#8217; identities and affiliations are currently unknown.[1]

&#8226;A Pakistani reconnaissance drone crashed in the Azam Warsak area of South Waziristan on Thursday night. Earlier reports claimed that a drone had crashed in the Kaza Panga area of the agency, but reports were unclear as to whether it was a U.S. or Pakistani drone. According to reports, Taliban militants surrounded the crash site and &#8220;took possession of the wreckage.&#8221; Pakistani intelligence officials countered that the wreckage was that of a Pakistani drone and that Pakistani security personnel had possession of the vehicle.[2]



Safriz said:


> ^^^ Thats good news..
> It confirms that Pakistani drones are up there watching the militants,and the borders.
> 
> ^^^ Thats good news..
> It confirms that Pakistani drones are up there watching the militants,and the borders.



a drone crashes and u call it good news - youre weird man


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## Safriz

^^ 
Fat bhai..
I am appreciating the fact that Pakistani drones are up there watching the terrorists.
Crash tou hotay rehtay hain..no biggy


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## Nishan_101

I hope that JF-17 Block-IIs and their assembly will make a big difference by introducting about 25 each year and continue till 100 of such will be available along with their dual seats and some 50+ dual seat for AJTs as well.


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## mike bennett

Dear Forum Members,

Firstly a very belated Happy New Year and apologies for my slowness in writing to Forum Members. I do not know where time goes to. I do know that life seems to get busier.

I'll get straight to the point.
I have been contacted by the relative of *'Flight Lieutenant Saadat Mohammad Akhtar Khan' *who was killed in a Pakistan Air Force aviation accident around April 1969.

The only loss for that period that I have is the F-86 Sabre flown by *Sqn Ldr M A Chaudhury*. 23rd April 1969 ejected - recorded in Martin Baker List 

It may well be that the aircraft was training aircraft - his relative thinks that the pilot of the aircraft ejected. 

'Flight Lieutenant Saadat Mohammad Akhtar Khan' was was awarded the Sitara-i-Juraat for his service in the 1965 Indo-Pak War, as seen on the following link: | Pakistan Air Force Museum | Heroes | 1965 Gallantry Awards | Flight Lieutenant 

Any further help with this will be greatly appreciated - possibly the full name of the successful ejectee, details of the loss, the aircraft type

Best regards
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk
www.ejection-history.org.uk

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## Kompromat

^Perhaps @Muradk and @pshamim can help out here.

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## Donatello

If this is a genuine case for the family of the lost pilot, they can try contacting PAF itself. If that's not possible, then maybe someone from the think tank members can contact PAF or write a letter to PAF seeking information.

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## razgriz19

holy crap man! 
everytime i see this thread renewed, my heart jumps to my throat!

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## fatman17

mike bennett said:


> Dear Forum Members,
> 
> Firstly a very belated Happy New Year and apologies for my slowness in writing to Forum Members. I do not know where time goes to. I do know that life seems to get busier.
> 
> I'll get straight to the point.
> I have been contacted by the relative of *'Flight Lieutenant Saadat Mohammad Akhtar Khan' *who was killed in a Pakistan Air Force aviation accident around April 1969.
> 
> The only loss for that period that I have is the F-86 Sabre flown by *Sqn Ldr M A Chaudhury*. 23rd April 1969 ejected - recorded in Martin Baker List
> 
> It may well be that the aircraft was training aircraft - his relative thinks that the pilot of the aircraft ejected.
> 
> 'Flight Lieutenant Saadat Mohammad Akhtar Khan' was was awarded the Sitara-i-Juraat for his service in the 1965 Indo-Pak War, as seen on the following link: | Pakistan Air Force Museum | Heroes | 1965 Gallantry Awards | Flight Lieutenant
> 
> Any further help with this will be greatly appreciated - possibly the full name of the successful ejectee, details of the loss, the aircraft type
> 
> Best regards
> Mike Bennett
> Project Get Out and Walk
> www.ejection-history.org.uk



unfortunately access to offical PAF documents can only be allowed by the CAS. the family should write to the CAS - ACM Tahir Butt at AHQ - Islamabad.

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## farhan_9909

razgriz19 said:


> holy crap man!
> everytime i see this thread renewed, my heart jumps to my throat!



exactly same happens with me

i am more worried about JFT crash

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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> unfortunately access to offical PAF documents can only be allowed by the CAS. the family should write to the CAS - ACM Tahir Butt at AHQ - Islamabad.



I've made contact with PAF and now awaiting their response. Will inform as soon as I get it.

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## fatman17

Last Hope said:


> I've made contact with PAF and now awaiting their response. Will inform as soon as I get it.



if we can get his PK No then i know Muradk can get access to his data-base.

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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> if we can get his PK No then i know Muradk can get access to his data-base.



Maybe if Mike gives us the E-Mail address of the relative, they can give it to us.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> if we can get his PK No then i know Muradk can get access to his data-base.



What's PK number?

The equivalent of Pak army's PA number in PAF?

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## naseebkhanniazi

Wich aircraft crashed details please


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## mike bennett

Thanks to everyone for their helpful replies.
With Najam's permission here is his original letter and email address
To Whom it May Concern, 


I was recently researching my family history when i uncovered that my maternal great-uncle lost his life during an air accident, while on active duty in the Pakistani Air Force over Karachi in Pakistan in 1969.


I attempted to further research this tragic incident but I have failed to find anything of substance. I noticed on your website you have a Chronological Listing of Pakistani Ejections and Losses, I also noticed that you have a listing for April 23rd 1969, of which there are no further details. It was around this very time that the previously mentioned incident took place. 


If you could provide any additional information regarding the details of the incident, or as to where you acquired the date then I would be very grateful indeed. In return I would willing to provide crew details and corresponding photographs. 


email

sonnyjim.najam@gmail.com


--------------------------------------------

Does anyone have any further deatils of Sqn Ldr M A Chaudhury.
Did the PAF have any two seat F-86s [TF-86F] - that may be an explanation of the 23rd April 1969

Best regards
Mike Bennett


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## Jango

mike bennett said:


> Did the PAF have any two seat F-86s [TF-86F] - that may be an explanation of the 23rd April 1969
> 
> Best regards
> Mike Bennett



Weren't there only two TF-86's ever made? FU-228 is the serial number of one and FU-016 being the other?

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## fatman17

mike bennett said:


> Thanks to everyone for their helpful replies.
> With Najam's permission here is his original letter and email address
> To Whom it May Concern,
> 
> 
> I was recently researching my family history when i uncovered that my maternal great-uncle lost his life during an air accident, while on active duty in the Pakistani Air Force over Karachi in Pakistan in 1969.
> 
> 
> I attempted to further research this tragic incident but I have failed to find anything of substance. I noticed on your website you have a Chronological Listing of Pakistani Ejections and Losses, I also noticed that you have a listing for April 23rd 1969, of which there are no further details. It was around this very time that the previously mentioned incident took place.
> 
> 
> If you could provide any additional information regarding the details of the incident, or as to where you acquired the date then I would be very grateful indeed. In return I would willing to provide crew details and corresponding photographs.
> 
> 
> email
> 
> sonnyjim.najam@gmail.com
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> 
> Does anyone have any further deatils of Sqn Ldr M A Chaudhury.
> Did the PAF have any two seat F-86s [TF-86F] - that may be an explanation of the 23rd April 1969
> 
> Best regards
> Mike Bennett



never the T-33 was used as the OCU

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## Najam Khan

@mike bennett,
There is no way he or any other person can get account of such incident from people on Internet. He should contact Dte of Media Affairs, PAF via telephone (not email); the numbers are available on contact us section of PAF's website.

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## mike bennett

Najam Khan said:


> @mike bennett,
> There is no way he or any other person can get account of such incident from people on Internet. He should contact Dte of Media Affairs, PAF via telephone (not email); the numbers are available on contact us section of PAF's website.



Thank you for the correct protocol in these matters. I will advise Najam.
With respect
Mike


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## mike bennett

Thanks to nuclearpak and fatman17,

I now know that the PAF did not have either of the two TF-86s and that the T-33 was the OCU trainer in this period.
Its important to be able to eliminate certain lines of research. 

Most Forum Members will know that the majority of my web site details are from Public Domain and information sent me from actual pilots and their families.
Rarely a week goes by without someone requesting help to find out what happened to a family member or friend.
I explain I do not represent any official organisation, the web site is a personal endeavour to preserve and record history as accurately as possible.
Where I am able I will ask people who may know the best course of action to obtain helpful information. I put this particular request to the Forum and I am pleased to say that the members have (again) responded in a very positive manner.
I am certain that if Najam obtains details of his great uncle's loss he will allow me to share it with the Forum.

Every request I receive is slightly different. 

The internet is a great place to share research and further our knowledge and correspond with "those who were there."
Its a lot quicker than when I used to rely on snail mail (that seems so long ago now)
One thing I have learnt, "truth" really is stranger than fiction.
Where I have made an error (typo etc) on my web site or misinterpreted the available information I am always pleased to receive constructive comments and amend the mistakes. When data conflicts I will point this out. 



With "Data Protection Laws" and "Customer in Confidence" being applied in many cases where it was never intended, companies that many years ago (pre internet - remember those days) were proud to let the world know about lives saved by their parachute or ejection seats can no longer provide such data and sadly their archives remain closed to researchers.

I am always happy to receive requests and help where I can but in the end it is up to the family to make the decision to persue their searches. Sadly many of the requests I get are for pilots and crews who have died. 

In the early days of the project I was uneasy at including details of those who died so I omitted them in case I caused offence or distress to the surviving family members. It was the request and comments by the widow of one pilot, (his F-106 crashed and his "new design" ejection seat failed) , who asked if I would include her husband,s details. She told me she would be pleased to see that her husband was remembered.
Many families have sent me photos and details of their loved ones who paid the ultimate price to add them to the web site. Many of the biography pages have been compiled with the help and input of the family.

My final two requests (for the forseeable future), please can you mention the project to anyone who you think may be able to add information on losses, bailouts and ejections, and secondly, if you do spot a mistake on the web site to let me know? 

Thank you.
With respect
Mike

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## mike bennett

Dear Forum members,
Quick heads up on another ejection

Tuesday 12th February 2013
15:67 local


IAF
MiG-27

Uttarlai Air Base
Routine training flight. Crashed three miles from air base two minutes after take off near a hamlet, Allawani- Ki- Dhani, 30 km from Barmer, Rajasthan.
Wing Commander Nishikant Singh
ejected
taken to Jodhpur's Military Hospital 


KM-1


with respect
Mike Bennett
www.ejection-history.org.uk


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## Nishan_101

How many Mirages, F-7 are left?


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## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> How many Mirages, F-7 are left?



i am counting....pl give me a few years!


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## Jango

MIANWALI: A training aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force crashed on the outskirts of Mianwali town of Punjab, with the pilot ejecting safely, SAMAA reports Thursday.

Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) said a F7 plane was on routine training sortie when crashed in a village near Isakhel town of Mianwali district in north-west of Punjab this morning.

The pilot, Flight Lieutenant Taha, ejected safely and was slightly injured. Security forces arrived at the site and cordoned off the area.

ISPR cited &#8216;technical reason&#8217; behind the plane crash. -- SAMAA

PAF plane crashes near Mianwali; pilot safe | SAMAA TV

One thing here doesn't fit in, if it was a training aircraft, shouldn't it have been a K-8 or a T-37 or something like that, and with 2 pilots?

The article mentions a one seater F-7...how's that a training aircraft?

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## Abu Zolfiqar

typically FT-7Ps are used for trainer role however it makes mention of only 1 pilot who, Alhamdulillah, is safe and sound. 

otherwise what it could mean is he was just on a routine sortie --not necessarily a "pilot in training"

i'd wait for further info to be released, preferably from ISPR; Pakistani media's stupidity and ignorance on such affairs knows no bounds.


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## fatman17

what they meant was probably 'training sortie'

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## Abu Zolfiqar

a lot of the F-7s (not all, but many) are workhorses that have already served their service lives and now ought to be retired....safety of pilot comes first before anything else (except safety of homeland)


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## razgriz19

our media does not know any thing about military. To them everything is "Jadeed Tareen".
It was probably a training sortie, if it was an F-7 infact.


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## Donatello

Good to know the pilot is okay. If it was F-7P, it should be a relatively newer airframe....no?


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## rockstarIN

Good that pilot is safe..!

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## Manindra

A fighter jet of Pakistan Air Force crashed in eastern parts of the country on Thursday, officials said.

The pilot ejected safely and there was no loss on the ground, a PAF spokesman said. "Pakistan Air Force informs that an F-7P Fighter Aircraft, while on a routine operational training mission, crashed near Esa Khel town," the spokesman said in a statement."The Pilot of the aircraft ejected safely, no loss of civilian life or property has been reported on ground."

The PAF has ordered an inquiry into the crash.No reason has been cited for the crash in the PAF statement.

Pakistan fighter aircraft crashes, pilot ejected safe | NewsPakistan.PK


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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> Good to know the pilot is okay. If it was F-7P, it should be a relatively newer airframe....no?



No sir, F-7PGs are the newer frame, the 7P were inducted in late 80s and early 90s.

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## AUSTERLITZ

Was it old f-7 or new one?


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## gladiator26

it was a single seat F-7 and training sortie means that pilot was undergoing to become a fighter pilot in mianwali

f-7 are old now


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## HK Indian MBT

Pakistan is currently the largest non-Chinese F-7 operator, with ~120 F-7P and ~60 F-7PG. The Pakistan Air Force is to replace its entire fleet of F-7 with the JF-17 multirole fighter, all F-7P are planned to be retired and replaced with JF-17 Thunder aircraft by 2015.

People's Liberation Army Air Force: 290× J-7 plus 40× JJ-7 trainers remained in service (As of February 2012).
People's Liberation Army Naval Air Force: 30× J-7D/E remained in service (As of February 2012). I think chinese airforce has lots of out dated fighter jets ever !


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## nomi007

urgent need to replace mirages and f-7 with latest jf-17 thunders


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## Devil Soul

No need to create a separate thread, we got a dedicated thread --> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/3718-notify-paf-aircraft-crashes.html


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## Devil Soul

Thank GOD the Pilot is safe


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## M.harris

already posted.


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## Irfan Baloch

gladiator26 said:


> it was a single seat F-7 and training sortie means that pilot was undergoing to become a fighter pilot in mianwali
> 
> f-7 are old now



might mean a pretty much end to his dream
and by the way its one of the very few occasions where the pilot survived. so many crashes have also resulted in pilot fatalities.


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## AstanoshKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> *might mean a pretty much end to his dream*
> and by the way its one of the very few occasions where the pilot survived. so many crashes have also resulted in pilot fatalities.



Does the pilot gets grounded if he crashes a plan? Is it in PAF's R&R or is it that the pilot is under so much psychological trauma that he's unable to fly anymore?


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## Jango

AstanoshKhan said:


> Does the pilot gets grounded if he crashes a plan? Is it in PAF's R&R or is it that the pilot is under so much psychological trauma that he's unable to fly anymore?



To definitively say that his career is over is a bit harsh.

Nobody knows the exact causes as of yet. If it was a mech failure, engine failure, hydraulics etc, then the pilot gets free, if the pilot did do a **** up, then he would be grounded.

The board of inquiry determines the future course of action for the pilot.

As for the psychological trauma, yes stuff like that does happen.

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## Dr. Strangelove

pilot is safe

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## Nishan_101

MASHA ALLAH. May ALLAH Protect us all. Ameen

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## Edevelop

MIANWALI: A training aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force crashed in the outskirts of Mianwali, with the pilot ejecting safely on Thursday. The Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) said that an F7 plane was on routine training sortie when it crashed in a village near Isakhel town of Mianwali. The pilot, Flight Lieutenant Taha, ejected safely and was slightly injured. Security forces arrived at the site and cordoned off the area. The ISPR cited technical reason behind the plane crash. A board of inquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters. agencies

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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## Kompromat

Already posted in "Report PAF Crashes" thread.

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## krash

AstanoshKhan said:


> Does the pilot gets grounded if he crashes a plan? Is it in PAF's R&R or is it that the pilot is under so much psychological trauma that he's unable to fly anymore?





nuclearpak said:


> To definitively say that his career is over is a bit harsh.
> 
> Nobody knows the exact causes as of yet. If it was a mech failure, engine failure, hydraulics etc, then the pilot gets free, if the pilot did do a **** up, then he would be grounded.
> 
> The board of inquiry determines the future course of action for the pilot.
> 
> As for the psychological trauma, yes stuff like that does happen.



Well his career as a fighter pilot is over, if my uncle's story is to be trusted. My uncle, to be honest I don't remember his rank at the time, was flying around Karachi when the engine of his Mirage III caught fire. He was advised by the tower to eject, which he did. No fault of his own was ever ascertained but he was quietly removed from his squadron and given the option of joining the ground staff or the transport wing. Transport was the way he went, flew C-130s for a while, then flew Benazir and Nawaz around, then came back to his C-130s, then was something in the "Pakistan Squash something something", then retired as an Air Commodore and is now serving in Air Blue. 

Don't know if his crash was the actual reason behind his move or that he just got scared, but this is what he tells everyone.

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## third eye

krash said:


> Well his career as a fighter pilot is over, if my uncle's story is to be trusted. My uncle, to be honest I don't remember his rank at the time, was flying around Karachi when the engine of his Mirage III caught fire. He was advised by the tower to eject, which he did. No fault of his own was ever ascertained but he was quietly removed from his squadron and given the option of joining the ground staff or the transport wing. Transport was the way he went, flew C-130s for a while, then flew Benazir and Nawaz around, then came back to his C-130s, then was something in the "Pakistan Squash something something", then retired as an Air Commodore and is now serving in Air Blue.
> 
> *Don't know if his crash was the reason behind his move or that he just got scared*.



It must be medical reasons. The G force on ejection invariably leave tell tale marks on the spine of a pilot. This causes concerns.

Such pilots are given options to fly transports or if medically permissible helicopters.

Air forces do not have the luxury to ease off a pilot after a crash - a great deal of time, money & energy is used to train a pilot.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

krash said:


> Well his career as a fighter pilot is over, if my uncle's story is to be trusted. My uncle, to be honest I don't remember his rank at the time, was flying around Karachi when the engine of his Mirage III caught fire. He was advised by the tower to eject, which he did. No fault of his own was ever ascertained but he was quietly removed from his squadron and given the option of joining the ground staff or the transport wing. Transport was the way he went, flew C-130s for a while, then flew Benazir and Nawaz around, then came back to his C-130s, then was something in the "Pakistan Squash something something", then retired as an Air Commodore and is now serving in Air Blue.
> 
> Don't know if his crash was the actual reason behind his move or that he just got scared, but this is what he tells everyone.



regardless of what it is, I thank him for his service.



nomi007 said:


> urgent need to replace mirages and f-7 with latest jf-17 thunders



Mirages -- yes, unfortunately. They've served us well and they are awesome aircrafts, especially the Rose-II/III mid-life updated variants. It'll be sad to see them go, but everything has a life.

not all the F-7P/PGs have outlived their service life. Some are a little over a decade old which isn't bad. Older ones should be phased out. 


with the PAF modernization program on back-burner due to limited funds - it's hard to see what direction or action PAF will be taking. But whatever it is, they know what they're doing.

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## krash

third eye said:


> It must be medical reasons. The G force on ejection invariably leave tell tale marks on the spine of a pilot. This causes concerns.
> 
> Such pilots are given options to fly transports or if medically permissible helicopters.
> 
> Air forces do not have the luxury to ease off a pilot after a crash - a great deal of time, money & energy is used to train a pilot.



Never heard of him being physically hurt from the ordeal, from the years of retelling of this story. Also, the PAF is kinda infamous about being unforgiving, I wouldn't put this past them. Even though I'm pretty sure that he was not at fault. On top of that the PAF has a 4:1 pilot to aircraft ratio. But their's also a good chance that you might be right.

I think it was my uncle's decision (coerced by the airforce), because my friend's cousin, currently serving in the PAF, also told about an exact case. According to him, a crash, if not your fault, is an un-check on your record and means that you won't go far as a fighter pilot. Add this to the fact that it must have shook him a little and must have shook my aunt a little too much (You know, young family, little baby, who wouldn't be) and you get a better picture.


----------



## fatman17

*Pilot Ejects Safely Before Pakistan Air Force F-7P Crash*

July 11th, 2013 A PAKISTAN Air Force Chengdu F-7P fighter crashed today during a routine operational training mission near the town of Esa [...]


----------



## Luftwaffe

fatman17 said:


> what they meant was probably 'training sortie'



Things got funny, I switched on to dunya TV and they showed old footage of Pak Army Trainer Mushak. 
 @Donatello, These F-7Ps are between 22-24 Years old.


----------



## ziaulislam

f-7s have limted airframe i think at most 25 years
so replacement is urgent but it seems that it wouldnot be completed before 2018-20


----------



## Edevelop

*PAF training aircraft crashes, pilot and co-pilot missing*

SWABI: A training aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force crashed near Chota Lahore in Swabi and a search operation is underway for the two pilots, Express News reported on Wednesday.

DPO Swabi, Mian Saeed said The training aircraft crash landed in to the River Indus and we have been able to recover the pieces of the tail-end of the aircraft.

The cokpit is still in the water according to the official.

The pilot and co-pilot both are missing and we have informed 1122, Saeed added.

Eyewitnesses said the pilot tried to steer away from crashing on land, and could be seen going towards the water.

Rescue divers have been summoned to the site of the crash.

Details and names of the pilots are not known as of yet.

PAF training aircraft crashes, pilot and co-pilot missing  The Express Tribune


----------



## Jango

PAF spokesman has denied the news.

Chota Lahore is near the Peshawar-Isb motorway I think, I heard about that place while going on the motorway.

The training base near that area is of Risalpur (PAF Academy), operational base is Kamra.

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## M.harris

they say the plane landed safely only the drop tanks have to dropped due to technical problem during flight.


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## Windjammer

Damn, so many conflicting reports coming out. !!


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## nomi007

why the rate of incidents of musak is increasing


----------



## Star Wars

Hope the pilots are safe ...


----------



## Devil Soul

SWABI: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has denied that a PAF training aircraft crashed into the Indus River and stated that there were no damages or losses, in a press release sent to The Express Tribune. 
PAF spokesperson Tariq Mahmood clarified that &#8220;a fighter jet aircraft jettisoned its fuel drop tanks due to technical reasons over the river Indus, while on a training mission&#8221; in the press release.
Earlier, media reports alleged that a training aircraft of the PAF crashed near Chota Lahore in Swabi and a search operation was underway for two missing pilots.
DPO Swabi, Mian Saeed while speaking to Express News said &#8220;The training aircraft crash landed in to the River Indus and we have been able to recover the pieces of the tail-end of the aircraft.&#8221;
The c0ck-pit was still in the water according to the official.
No training aircraft crashed: PAF &#8211; The Express Tribune


----------



## Gryphon

*Fuel tanks jettisoned by PAF jet triggers reports of crash*

*July 24, 2013*

*Peshawar:* Fuel tanks jettisoned by a Pakistan Air Force jet fell into the Indus river in the country's northwest on Wednesday, triggering reports that a trainer aircraft had crashed. 

PAF spokesman Tariq Mahmood clarified that a fighter jet "jettisoned its fuel drop tanks due to technical reasons over the river Indus while on a training mission. He denied reports that a trainer aircraft had crashed into the river. 

There was no loss or damage on the ground due to the jettisoning of fuel tanks by the jet, Mahmood said in a statement. 

Earlier, police officials had told the media that a Mushak trainer aircraft crashed into the river near Chota Lahore in Swabi district of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province. 

Swabi district police chief Mian Saeed had erroneously claimed that pieces of an aircraft had been recovered and that its pilot and co-pilot were missing.

Fuel tanks jettisoned by PAF jet triggers reports of crash


----------



## eagle20054

Mysterious air crash near Nowshera

PESHAWAR: A mysterious air crash occured in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa's Nowshera area on Wednesday.

DPO Nowshera was earlier reported as saying that a Mushak trainer jet, which was on a routine training mission, had crashed and half of the planes fuselage was recovered from the River Indus.

He had further said that a search for the pilot and co-pilot was underway.

However, Waseem Khan, the Assistant Director Media of the Pakistan Air Force denied that any PAF aircraft had crashed and that the fleet strength of the PAF was complete.

He further said that the reports could pertain to the dumping of a used fuel tank and that investigations into the incident were underway.
Mysterious air crash near Nowshera - DAWN.COM


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## alibaz

Poor reporting, rather reporting without confirmation for the run of breaking news.

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## piddu

wat kind F-7???


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## Muradk

fatman17 said:


> if we can get his PK No then i know Muradk can get access to his data-base.[/Q
> PAk number would help.


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## TOPGUN

Muradk said:


> fatman17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> if we can get his PK No then i know Muradk can get access to his data-base.[/Q
> PAk number would help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muradk , sir so nice to see you back with us hope you are feeling good and your family is also well ... do stay in touch sir may ALLAH bless you .
Click to expand...


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## chinese-man

ye!all right!


----------



## fatman17

DAWN has reported the crash of an un-identified PAF UAV


----------



## Side-Winder

fatman17 said:


> DAWN has reported the crash of an un-identified PAF UAV



yes heard a similar news...crashed near capital islamabad


----------



## k.chandio98

Did any PAF plane crashed at Sutlej, past 6 months or a year ago?


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## JonAsad

KanzKool said:


> Did any PAF plane crashed at Sutlej, past 6 months or a year ago?



o bhai- this is a bad omen thread- whenever it pops up in the recent thread section- it gives me goosebumps thinking we hv lost another pilot or bird- and you are asking questions here?- -

-

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## baaghi

Hi Everyone,
I am new here but I have lived most of my life in PAF basses as my father was an officer with Pakistan Air Force. The thing which I know about these guys, especially pilots is that they are ready to sacrifice their lives for Pakistan at any part of their life, I have seen people embracing Shadat on the 2nd day of their marriage and I know mothers who have lost more then 2 sons for their country.
Pakistan Air Force or Pakistan Army or Pakistan Navy can win wars when they have fresh blood and support from their citizens, thats us, if we are at their back, they will never let our enemies take over motherland Pakistan.

May Allah bless all those who embraced shadat & may Allah give rewards to their parents, wives and children. Amen

Pakistan Zindabaad

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## Gryphon

*PAF Mushshak trainer aircraft crashes in Punjab*

By Ahmed Jatt | 9 October, 2013







*PINDI BHATTIAN: Mushshak trainer aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has crashed on Wednesday in Pindi Bhattian tehsil of the Pakistan&#8217;s Punjab province.*

The trainer plane crash incident occurred due to technical fault which resulted crashing of the aircraft in Pindi Bhattian tehsil, located in the Hafizabad district in Punjab province, military sources told TheNewsTribe.

Residents of the area said the aircraft crashed in the fields while police sources confirmed the reports of plane crash.

Flight training pilots have survived in the incident as they both ejected from the plane via parachutes.

PAF spokesperson told the local media that the Mushshak trainer plane was on its routine flight but crashed due to technical fault near Pindi Bhattian area.

PAF Mushshak trainer aircraft crashes in Punjab - The News Tribe

*PAF jet crashes, pilots survive*

_9 October 2013_






PINDI BHATTIAN: A trainee jet of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed in the fields here on Wednesday, however the instructor and the cadet pilot managed for a safe escape from the falling aircraft - ARY News reports.

The incident took place when the engine of the aircraft failed due to some technical reasons, during the trainee flight. The instructor made timely decision and ejected out the pilot and himself, both of them safely landed with the help of parachutes.

*Sources told that both the pilots received minor injuries, while the aircraft was completely destroyed on hitting the ground.*

PAF jet crashes, pilots survive - ARY News


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## Imran Khan

both safely ejected ? go to hell mashaq

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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force Mushshak

&#61607;	Date: October 9, 2013
&#61607;	Nationality: Pakistan Air Force
&#61607;	Type: Mushshak
&#61607;	Serial No.: 74-503

The aircraft crashed in the Pindi Bhattian adminstrative divison of the Hafizabad district in Pakistan&#8217;s Punjab province. Both pilots parachuted safely from the aircraft after it developed a technical fault during a routine training flight and then crashed in an open field


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## Panther 57

@fatman17 If it is Mushak then there is no parachuting. They must have landed in fields successfully.
@fatman17 If it is Mushak then there is no parachuting. They must have landed in fields successfully.


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## fatman17

Panther 57 said:


> @fatman17 If it is Mushak then there is no parachuting. They must have landed in fields successfully.
> @fatman17 If it is Mushak then there is no parachuting. They must have landed in fields successfully.



it was a belly landing. i was also surprised to read about 'parachuting'.


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## Panther 57

@fatman17 you will find it very interesting that one website even declared two ejection seat with a provision of third has been fitted in Super Mushak LOL.


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## fatman17

Panther 57 said:


> @fatman17 you will find it very interesting that one website even declared two ejection seat with a provision of third has been fitted in Super Mushak LOL.



if they have managed that, then its a great improvement on pilot safety and survivability


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## Panther 57

fatman17 said:


> if they have managed that, then its a great improvement on pilot safety and survivability



Well with to MBs installed the aircraft will not take off. Just a misleading information on net.


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## Jango

The pictures I have seen show it resting upside down...


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## Panther 57

nuclearpak said:


> The pictures I have seen show it resting upside down...



Most of the time, during field landing, it does cartwheel.


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## Mughal-Prince

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *PAF Mushshak trainer aircraft crashes in Punjab*
> 
> By Ahmed Jatt | 9 October, 2013
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PINDI BHATTIAN: Mushshak trainer aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has crashed on Wednesday in Pindi Bhattian tehsil of the Pakistans Punjab province.*
> 
> The trainer plane crash incident occurred due to technical fault which resulted crashing of the aircraft in Pindi Bhattian tehsil, located in the Hafizabad district in Punjab province, military sources told TheNewsTribe.
> 
> Residents of the area said the aircraft crashed in the fields while police sources confirmed the reports of plane crash.
> 
> Flight training pilots have survived in the incident as they both ejected from the plane via parachutes.
> 
> PAF spokesperson told the local media that the Mushshak trainer plane was on its routine flight but crashed due to technical fault near Pindi Bhattian area.
> 
> PAF Mushshak trainer aircraft crashes in Punjab - The News Tribe
> 
> *PAF jet crashes, pilots survive*
> 
> _9 October 2013_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PINDI BHATTIAN: A trainee jet of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed in the fields here on Wednesday, however the instructor and the cadet pilot managed for a safe escape from the falling aircraft - ARY News reports.
> 
> The incident took place when the engine of the aircraft failed due to some technical reasons, during the trainee flight. The instructor made timely decision and ejected out the pilot and himself, both of them safely landed with the help of parachutes.
> 
> *Sources told that both the pilots received minor injuries, while the aircraft was completely destroyed on hitting the ground.*
> 
> PAF jet crashes, pilots survive - ARY News



I have read this may be twice or thrice and wana know since when mushak become jet trainer


----------



## michaeljordan

Don't know where to post but a recent crash which lead to 94 Escape Death As IRS Aircraft Crash-lands In Kaduna. leadership.ng/news/141013/94-escape-death-irs-aircraft-crash-lands-kaduna


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## airomerix

^Not in this section atleast.

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## SQ8

Panther 57 said:


> Well with to MBs installed the aircraft will not take off. Just a misleading information on net.



Supposedly it was destroyed in the news yet the pilot and instructor _ejected_ to safety??
They might have bailed out.

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## Panther 57

Oscar said:


> Supposedly it was destroyed in the news yet the pilot and instructor _ejected_ to safety??
> They might have bailed out.


Generally in such scenarios Mushak is landed in the field, it needs very less landing distance. If the field is uneven, there are chances of aircraft doing cartwheel. Injuries may be inflicted to pilots, but chances of survival are more. There is no ejection seat in this aircraft. But as per the news pilots are safe.

Picture posted by TheoccupiedKashmir suggests that it is not Mushak as a jet engine can be seen. So alot of confusion.


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## Jango

Panther 57 said:


> Generally in such scenarios Mushak is landed in the field, it needs very less landing distance. If the field is uneven, there are chances of aircraft doing cartwheel. Injuries may be inflicted to pilots, but chances of survival are more. There is no ejection seat in this aircraft. But as per the news pilots are safe.
> 
> Picture posted by TheoccupiedKashmir suggests that it is not Mushak as a jet engine can be seen. So alot of confusion.



It was a Mushak...






One of the oldest in PAF


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## Panther 57

nuclearpak said:


> It was a Mushak...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the oldest in PAF


seems 03. So the picture in ARY is incorrect. And dont worry, it will be again up and running.


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## Najam Khan

nuclearpak said:


> It was a Mushak...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the oldest in PAF


Cause of crash : Engine failure.
Pilot and the other officer (Air Cdre) inflicted minor injuries.


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## krash

Well it might just be possible to simply bail out of the Mashak, in the old WWII era style. But if that was the case then it would have happened from quite an altitude and the remainder of the bird wouldn't be so clean.


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## Panther 57

krash said:


> Well it might just be possible to simply bail out of the Mashak, in the old WWII era style. But if that was the case then it would have happened from quite an altitude and the remainder of the bird wouldn't be so clean.


There is no bailing out from Mushak as pilots dont wear parachute in it. Only way is force land and egress.

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## Gryphon

_October 28, 2013






*GUJRANWALA: Two pilots were critically injured when Pakistan Air Force (PAF) helicopter crashed near Gujranwala on Monday, Geo News reported.*

According to the sources, a PAF helicopter crashed in the fields near Gujranwala due to which two pilots were critically injured. They were shifted to Combined Military Hospital (CMH) for treatment, where one of them is said to be in danger.

The local police confirmed the incident.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-124191-Two-pilots-injured-as-PAF-copter-crashes-near-Gujranwala
_
*PAF gunship helicopter crashes in Gujranwala
*
October 28, 2013

_



_
A screengrab of the helicopter crash from Express News.

*GUJRANWALA: The pilot and co-pilot of a Pakistan Air Force gunship helicopter were injured when it crashed in the Cantt area of Gujranwala on Monday, Express News reported.*

The helicopter fell to the ground for unknown reasons and was destroyed on impact.

The two injured men were taken to CMH Hospital for First Aid.

The Pakistan Army reached the scene of the crash and cordoned off the area.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/623581/paf-gunship-helicopter-crashes-in-gujranwala/


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## ejaz007

*Two pilots injured as PAF copter crashes near Gujranwala
*
GUJRANWALA: Two pilots were critically injured when Pakistan Air Force (PAF) helicopter crashed near Gujranwala on Monday, Geo News reported.

According to the sources, a PAF helicopter crashed in the fields near Gujranwala due to which two pilots were critically injured. They were shifted to Combined Military Hospital (CMH) for treatment, where one of them is said to be in danger.

The local police confirmed the incident.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-124191-Two-pilots-injured-as-PAF-copter-crashes-near-Gujranwala


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## forcetrip

minor injuries .. not critically injured. As per news reports.


----------



## chhota bheem

what was the reason of the crash?good no one was killed.


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## nomi007

work is too slow for replacing them


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## Kompromat

This is an AH-1. 

I am glad, that the pilots are safe.


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## fatman17

*PAF gunship helicopter crashes in Gujranwala*

The pilot and the co-pilot were taken to CMH Hospital for First Aid.
By Web Desk
Published: October 28, 2013




A screengrab of the helicopter crash from Express News.
*GUJRANWALA: The pilot and co-pilot of a Pakistan Air Force gunship helicopter were injured when it crashed in the Cantt area of Gujranwala on Monday, Express News reported.*
SHO Cantt said that during the flight a sudden technical failure led to a fire in the helicopter, upon which the two occupants, identified as Major Furqan and Major Imran, attempted to land in an unpopulated area.
They jumped from the helicopter with parachutes before it crashed near a cotton factory, getting away with minor injuries.
The two injured men were taken to CMH Hospital for First Aid.
The Pakistan Army reached the scene of the crash and cordoned off the area.
The ISPR confirmed the gunship helicopter crash.


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## fatman17

army Cobra crashes....!


----------



## fatman17

anilindia said:


> The Pakistan Air Force is losing nearly two percent of its 900 aircraft each year to accidents. This is more than ten times the rate of Western air forces. These losses are caused by aircraft that are too old and a budget that is too small to properly train pilots and maintain the aircraft. Most of Pakistan’s 520 fighters are over 20 years old. This includes 157 French made Mirage IIIs and 5s, 178 of 186 MiG-21s (the Chinese F-7 version), and 31 of 77 U.S. made F-16s. There have been some new aircraft put into service. *Since 2000, Pakistan has received 46 F-16s and 100 Chinese made JF-17s (similar to the F-16). These planes are pretty safe. Older aircraft tend to crash more often*.
> 
> Pakistan does not have enough money to buy enough new aircraft to replace all those becoming inoperable because of age. You can refurbish old aircraft and keep them flying for half a century or more. But Pakistan hasn’t got the money for that either. There’s also not enough cash for the spare parts and fuel needed for the training flights needed to keep the 3,000 Pakistani Air Force pilots capable of handling high-performance aircraft safely. In short, the Pakistani Air Force is facing a disaster. Each year more and more of their aircraft become inoperable and their pilots, unable to fly enough to maintain their skill, become less capable.
> 
> https://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/Pakistan-Air-Force-Crumbling-Away-1-9-2013.asp


 
try quoting from a more professional web-site!


----------



## Panther 57

fatman17 said:


> *PAF gunship helicopter crashes in Gujranwala*
> 
> The pilot and the co-pilot were taken to CMH Hospital for First Aid.
> By Web Desk
> Published: October 28, 2013
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A screengrab of the helicopter crash from Express News.
> *GUJRANWALA: The pilot and co-pilot of a Pakistan Air Force gunship helicopter were injured when it crashed in the Cantt area of Gujranwala on Monday, Express News reported.*
> SHO Cantt said that during the flight a sudden technical failure led to a fire in the helicopter, upon which the two occupants, identified as Major Furqan and Major Imran, attempted to land in an unpopulated area.
> They jumped from the helicopter with parachutes before it crashed near a cotton factory, getting away with minor injuries.
> The two injured men were taken to CMH Hospital for First Aid.
> The Pakistan Army reached the scene of the crash and cordoned off the area.
> The ISPR confirmed the gunship helicopter crash.


It is not an air force crash. It is army crash, either case loss is of Pakistan.


----------



## fatman17

Panther 57 said:


> It is not an air force crash. It is army crash, either case loss is of Pakistan.


 
see post #2060.....


----------



## Imran Khan

damn cobra we already have shortage of gunship choppers man so sad for it .


----------



## Imran Khan



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## m haris khan

can we up grade it 
OR 
make a new heli (copy it tecnologies)


----------



## Armstrong

@fatman17 @Oscar @mafiya - Do you guys think that something could be salvaged from these machines or are they a completely lost cause ?


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## Jango

No way that can be called an emergency landing, this was a complete crash.

Very heavy impact. It takes some big impact to throw off the engine like that and have the tail boom separated...skids also buckled...hard impact i'd say.

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## Jango

Armstrong said:


> @fatman17 @Oscar @mafiya - Do you guys think that something could be salvaged from these machines or are they a completely lost cause ?



Maybe the rocket launcher assembly, avionics, cockpit instruments...maybe some skin panels...

BTW, if you look below, just above the skid (or at least where it should be!), you can see a yellow box type thing.

The bullets are stored in that place in boxes...the avionics bay can also be reached from there. The casing is open, indicating, that the bullets were taken out and maybe the avionics bay was tinkered with.

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## Armstrong

nuclearpak said:


> No way that can be called an emergency landing, this was a complete crash.
> 
> Very heavy impact. It takes some big impact to throw off the engine like that and have the tail boom separated...skids also buckled...hard impact i'd say.



Surely if that were true then there must be significant ground markings to substantiate that ? My guess is that it really was a crash-landing gone horribly bad with the Cobra being imbalanced towards the end !


----------



## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> Surely if that were true then there must be significant ground markings to substantiate that ? My guess is that it really was a crash-landing gone horribly bad with the Cobra being imbalanced towards the end !


considering that they bailed out eventually means they it did not go as planned and the chopper just came in by itself. 
That being said, it is still_ relatively _quite intact when it comes to chopper crashes and suggests a slower impact.

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## fatman17

*Two Crew Injured in Pakistan Army AH-1 Cobra Crash*
Posted on: October 28th, 2013



Wreckage of the Pakistan Army AH-1 Cobra following its crash earlier today.
A PAKISTAN Army Bell AH-1 Cobra crashed today in central Punjab province, injuring the two crew members. The helicopter suffered a technical fault during a low level flight and came down in an open area at GT Road Madina Colony inside the Rahwali Cantonment, in the Cantt area of Gujranwala District, 50 miles (80km) from the provincial capaital, Lahore.
The pilot (Major Imran) and co-pilot (Major Furqan) were taken to the Combined Military Hospital in Gujranwala for treatment. AFD-Dave Allport


----------



## Donatello

Good to know pilots are safe and that they piloted it away from the buildings/populated areas.


----------



## fatman17

total write-off!


----------



## Jango

fatman17 said:


> total write-off!



Definitely...

Pilots are fine from what I have heard. Good to hear.


----------



## nomi007

look state of the art cobra
of paa





it is better that paa start fund raising program and ask for donations for new aircrafts


----------



## alibaz

nuclearpak said:


> Definitely...
> 
> Pilots are fine from what I have heard. Good to hear.



Thank God, at least there is something good to hear.


----------



## Tacticool

nomi007 said:


> look state of the art cobra
> of paa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is better that paa start fund raising program and ask for donations for new aircrafts





fatman17 said:


> *Two Crew Injured in Pakistan Army AH-1 Cobra Crash*
> Posted on: October 28th, 2013
> 
> 
> 
> Wreckage of the Pakistan Army AH-1 Cobra following its crash earlier today.
> A PAKISTAN Army Bell AH-1 Cobra crashed today in central Punjab province, injuring the two crew members. The helicopter suffered a technical fault during a low level flight and came down in an open area at GT Road Madina Colony inside the Rahwali Cantonment, in the Cantt area of Gujranwala District, 50 miles (80km) from the provincial capaital, Lahore.
> The pilot (Major Imran) and co-pilot (Major Furqan) were taken to the Combined Military Hospital in Gujranwala for treatment. AFD-Dave Allport


Is it was 1980's procured one or 2010?


----------



## fatman17

*Wednesday, November 23, 2011*
*JF 17 crashes near Attock *


 


 


 


 A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF-17 Thunder multi-role combat aircraft on a routine training mission crashed near Mansar, Tehsil Hazro, Attock, on November 14, 2011. Unfortunately, aircraft's pilot Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain lost his life in this accident as his parachute did not open after ejection from the aircraft.

were these pics ever posted?


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## Jango

Yes they were I believe.


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## Chak Bamu

Bhai saheban. Please do not disturb this thread unless there is a genuine need to use it. Each time I see it highlighted, I open it with a bit of trepidation. 

Please note that the title of the thread is - NOTIFY PAF aircraft crashes. Notify is the key word here.

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## slapshot

MANDI BAHAUDDIN: An aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed here on Thursday, SAMAA reports.

According to PAF spokesman two persons, a pilot and a Co-Pilot, lost their lives in the incident.
A board has been formed for further investigation about Mirage fighter aircraft’s incident, he added. SAMAA

PAF aircraft crashes in Mandi Bahaduddin | SAMAA TV

*انا لله وانا اليه راجعون

EDITED
*
There seems to be conflicting reports on different news websites. Jang says its some private company's aircraft





Latest news, Breaking News | Daily Jang


----------



## ejaz007

*Pilot, co-pilot killed as training jet crashes*

MANDI BAHAUDDIN: The pilot and co-pilot were killed as a training jet of a *private company* crashed near Mandi Bahauddin on Thursday, Geo News reported.

SHO Shafqat Butt has confirmed deaths and said that the plane crashed in Qadirabad area.

Pilot, co-pilot killed as training jet crashes - thenews.com.pk


----------



## slapshot

ejaz007 said:


> *Pilot, co-pilot killed as training jet crashes*
> 
> MANDI BAHAUDDIN: The pilot and co-pilot were killed as a training jet of a *private company* crashed near Mandi Bahauddin on Thursday, Geo News reported.
> 
> SHO Shafqat Butt has confirmed deaths and said that the plane crashed in Qadirabad area.
> 
> Pilot, co-pilot killed as training jet crashes - thenews.com.pk




* إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ*


----------



## Leviza

*إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ*

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## kaykay

PAF aircraft crashes, pilot, co-pilot killed | Pakistan Today | Latest news | Breaking news | Pakistan News | World news | Business | Sport and Multimedia

RIP Wing Commander M Jamal and Flying officer Saad Suleman.


----------



## rockstarIN

RIP..

Is it a PAF jet or of a private company?


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## kaykay

rockstarIN said:


> RIP..
> 
> Is it a PAF jet or of a private company?


PAF aircraft.
Look at the pic and this link is saying that PAF spokesperson has confirmed it too. It was a Mirage.
PAF aircraft crashes, pilot, co-pilot killed | Pakistan Today | Latest news | Breaking news | Pakistan News | World news | Business | Sport and Multimedia


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## slapshot

rockstarIN said:


> RIP..
> 
> Is it a PAF jet or of a private company?


Pathetic journalism at its best


----------



## khanboy007

here is a pic of the *mirage*


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## Leviza

What was the cause of this crash ? Why didn't the pilot ejected ?


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## Panther 57

Leviza said:


> What was the cause of this crash ? Why didn't the pilot ejected ?


It will take time to acertain.

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## Bratva

A rose and IFR upgraded Mirage. What more pathetic is the loss of such experienced aviators. We haven't settled down from 2011-12 crashes, where 10-11 Sq. Leaders were killed in air crashes

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## F.O.X

It was a Mushak , not a mirage .

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## Star Wars

mafiya said:


> A rose and IFR upgraded Mirage. What more pathetic is the loss of such experienced aviators. We haven't settled down from 2011-12 crashes, where 10-11 Sq. Leaders were killed in air crashes



10-11 ? no way...its closer to 5 i think......i hope


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## slapshot

Just above the cone, is it IFR probe?


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## Bratva

Star Wars said:


> 10-11 ? no way...its closer to 5 i think......i hope



14 PAF aircraft destroyed, damaged in a year


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## slapshot

khanboy007 said:


> here is a pic of the *mirage*



This seems to be from 2011  Check here 
PAF Mirage-V crashes near Uthal, Balochistan, pilot embraces Shahadat

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## Gryphon

*Mirage Aircraft crashes near Mandi Bahauddin*

_16 January, 2014_





_File Photo_

_*PAF spokesperson says pilot and co-pilot of the plane were martyred in the crash.*_

A Mirage aircraft of Pakistan Air Force crashed in Qadirabad area of Mandi Bahauddin District on Thursday.

A spokesperson of PAF told our correspondent that the pilot and co-pilot of the plane were martyred in the crash.

He said the aircraft was on the routine training mission.

Mirage Aircraft crashes near Mandi Bahauddin | Radio Pakistan

RIP....


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## Imran Khan

slapshot said:


> This seems to be from 2011  Check here
> PAF Mirage-V crashes near Uthal, Balochistan, pilot embraces Shahadat


 its not pak mirage aether

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## kurup

slapshot said:


> Just above the cone, is it IFR probe?



Yes , it looks like so .


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## Wingman

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *Mirage Aircraft crashes near Mandi Bahauddin*
> 
> _16 January, 2014_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _File Photo_
> 
> _*PAF spokesperson says pilot and co-pilot of the plane were martyred in the crash.*_
> 
> A Mirage aircraft of Pakistan Air Force crashed in Qadirabad area of Mandi Bahauddin District on Thursday.
> 
> A spokesperson of PAF told our correspondent that the pilot and co-pilot of the plane were martyred in the crash.
> 
> He said the aircraft was on the routine training mission.
> 
> Mirage Aircraft crashes near Mandi Bahauddin | Radio Pakistan
> 
> RIP....




A wing Commander and a Flying Officer were martyred

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## Leviza

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *Mirage Aircraft crashes near Mandi Bahauddin*
> 
> _16 January, 2014_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _File Photo_
> 
> _*PAF spokesperson says pilot and co-pilot of the plane were martyred in the crash.*_
> 
> A Mirage aircraft of Pakistan Air Force crashed in Qadirabad area of Mandi Bahauddin District on Thursday.
> 
> A spokesperson of PAF told our correspondent that the pilot and co-pilot of the plane were martyred in the crash.
> 
> He said the aircraft was on the routine training mission.
> 
> Mirage Aircraft crashes near Mandi Bahauddin | Radio Pakistan
> 
> RIP....



That's sad , RIP 

Didn't they said Why crashed and why didn't they ejected ?


----------



## khanboy007

slapshot said:


> This seems to be from 2011  Check here
> PAF Mirage-V crashes near Uthal, Balochistan, pilot embraces Shahadat



yes it is

the latest crash is of a mushak


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## Meejee

The crashed mirage pic is an old one. Seen it long time ago.


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## viper46

ejection seat????? are they not on these mushaks???? ....  ? and this i seriously bad... at least pilot should have been safe.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Innah Lillahi w Innah Elayhi Rajioon.

I'm deeply saddened by this news. Precious lives (assets) lost. Bless them who embraced Shahadat.

I'm annoyed that media says Mirage but some guys here saying Mushak. Some clarification would be nice so there's no confusion

if it is Mirage -- I think it really is time to retire them.

They've served PAF well but a lot of them are beyond their service life. Even the previous PAF AM implied this.

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## Panther 57

mafiya said:


> A rose and IFR upgraded Mirage. What more pathetic is the loss of such experienced aviators. We haven't settled down from 2011-12 crashes, where 10-11 Sq. Leaders were killed in air crashes


A wing commander means probably a sqn cdr, if it was a mirage. 

@fox if it was a mushak then there must be something really wrong to have two pilots.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> if it is Mirage -- I think it really is time to retire them.


Not until the GAP is bridged



viper46 said:


> ejection seat????? are they not on these mushaks


Those were never there and wont be there. If they install it Mushak will not take off.


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## Side-Winder

Here is one of the martyers!

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## root

They need to phase out these old tin Mirages ASAP.


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## mike bennett

Just received the notification on the thread on the latest PAF loss.

The Mirage photo being shown is in fact a Venezuelan Mirage 50EV - FAV 6732 belonging to 33 Sqn Grupo Aereo de Caza 11 - it was lost on 17th September 2004 - both crew ejected.

I don't have any confirmation yet of the aircraft type.

I need to review my web page on PAF losses Pakistan it has not been updated for almost a two years - it may help answer the number of losses to the PAF in recent years. I may in fact have recorded the PAF losses on the year pages and not yet cross referenced the pages to the PAF page.
If anyone has details from 2008 onwards of losses please contact me direct at mbenshar@aol.com


Hope this is of interest
Mike Bennett
Project Get Out and Walk,
www.ejection-history.org.uk

Post Script - Can I ask *Sidewinder* for permission to use a copy of his post of Wing Cdr Jamal (and can anyone give me his full name)

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## Abu Zolfiqar

they arent tins or flying coffins (like case of other air forces) but they certainly are batches that are old and simply not airworthy

we lost 2 pilots today b/c of this.....I hope production of JFTs will go into over-drive to fill the 'gap' here

if they wanted to they could be alive, but at the expense of precious life and property below...they did what they had to do.


bless the Martyrs

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## mike bennett

I've just update the Pakistan loss page at Pakistan Hope this is of interest
Best regards
Mike

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## baqai

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


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## Devil Soul




----------



## fatman17

*Two Killed in Pakistan Air Force Mirage Crash*
Posted on: January 16th, 2014




Newly refurbished by PAC Kamra, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) two-seat Mirage 5DD 04.002, formerly with the Libyan Air Force, taxies out for a test flight from Kamra-Minhas on February 18, 2007, flown by a 25 Squadron pilot. A two-seat PAF Mirage was lost in a crash today during a training flight from PAF Base Masroor/Sargodha, killing both crew members. AFD-Alan Warnes

A PAKISTAN Air Force (PAF) Dassault Mirage crashed today during a routine training mission, killing both crew members. The aircraft had taken off from PAF Base Masroor/Sargodha, but suffered a technical problem and came down in fields in the Qadir Abad area of the Mandi Bahauddin district of Punjab province.
The cause of the malfunction could not immediately be ascertained. A PAF team has arrived at the crash site and commenced an investigation. AFD-Dave Allport


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## Panther 57

root said:


> They need to phase out these old tin Mirages ASAP.


I guess a decision well out of your reach, as the decision makers have to consider multiple dimensions before they put it to action. Let it be their prerogative and their call.


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## Pinnacle

RIP..... 



fatman17 said:


> *Two Killed in Pakistan Air Force Mirage Crash*
> Posted on: January 16th, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newly refurbished by PAC Kamra, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) two-seat Mirage 5DD 04.002, formerly with the Libyan Air Force, taxies out for a test flight from Kamra-Minhas on February 18, 2007, flown by a 25 Squadron pilot. A two-seat PAF Mirage was lost in a crash today during a training flight from PAF Base Masroor/Sargodha, killing both crew members. AFD-Alan Warnes
> 
> A PAKISTAN Air Force (PAF) Dassault Mirage crashed today during a routine training mission, killing both crew members. The aircraft had taken off from PAF Base Masroor/Sargodha, but suffered a technical problem and came down in fields in the Qadir Abad area of the Mandi Bahauddin district of Punjab province.
> The cause of the malfunction could not immediately be ascertained. A PAF team has arrived at the crash site and commenced an investigation. AFD-Dave Allport


Is it ROSE Mirage-5 or simple one ?


----------



## Taygibay

Requiescat In Pacem!
A useful and honorable job equals an honorable death!
Salute and respect.

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## Chak Bamu

FB Post from Air Commodore (R) MHK Dotani about crashes like this recent one:

*Muhammad Dotani shared Zuha Saeed's photo.*
January 20
Most of the people giving their opinions don't know much about air craft.Agreed these are old Air craft but these are fit to fly otherwise Air force will not fly them.there are hundred and one reasons, best known to the pilot to act.just making statements does not solve the problem.let the inquiry decide what happened.most of the parts of aircraft, engine are replaced after their useabl life.Ejaction seats are checked, both seats could not be defective.many a time speed, height or some unknown reason could be the reason when a senior highly experienced pilot could decide against standard operating procedures.I have done it.sometimes you are lucky to come back and tell the tale and sometimes you don't.we should pray for departed souls and not as a always play the blame game.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sorry to post in this thread, but I thought that respected AC (R) Dotani's views were very relevant in this context.

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## Pakistanisage

Chak Bamu said:


> FB Post from Air Commodore (R) MHK Dotani about crashes like this recent one:
> 
> *Muhammad Dotani shared Zuha Saeed's photo.*
> January 20
> Most of the people giving their opinions don't know much about air craft.Agreed these are old Air craft but these are fit to fly otherwise Air force will not fly them.there are hundred and one reasons, best known to the pilot to act.just making statements does not solve the problem.let the inquiry decide what happened.most of the parts of aircraft, engine are replaced after their useabl life.Ejaction seats are checked, both seats could not be defective.many a time speed, height or some unknown reason could be the reason when a senior highly experienced pilot could decide against standard operating procedures.I have done it.sometimes you are lucky to come back and tell the tale and sometimes you don't.we should pray for departed souls and not as a always play the blame game.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I am sorry to post in this thread, but I thought that respected AC (R) Dotani's views were very relevant in this context.





Sir Dotani has a lot of experience on Mirages and he is right on the money here.

We lost a highly experieced Fighter Pilot and a Trainee in this Crash.

We have to learn to live with these limitations. These aircrafts are getting old and weary but still they are serving a purpose for a financially Strapped Pakistan Air Force.

Rest in peace brave and Gallant Warriors, your Nation will never forget your sacrifices.

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## Armstrong

Chak Bamu said:


> FB Post from Air Commodore (R) MHK Dotani about crashes like this recent one:
> 
> *Muhammad Dotani shared Zuha Saeed's photo.*
> January 20
> Most.......always *play the blame game*.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I am sorry to post in this thread, but I thought that respected AC (R) Dotani's views were very relevant in this context.



But the blame must be apportioned - We lost a highly experienced fighter pilot, a, presumably, promising trainee pilot & a fairly useful aircraft ! 

I think when people are asking for 'whose to blame' in an implicit or even an explicit manner they're not asking for the names of those responsible but a hope that their will be an investigation into this so that our pilots & our platforms are safe in the future ! 

Judging by the fact that this is another crash after a few crashes these past 2-3 years - the frustration is justifiable !

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## Arsalan

Sad to know about the loss, May there soul rest in peace.

I hope that Gov takes notice and make funds available to speed up the production of JF-17 Blk-II and then move onto Blk-III.
we have lots of old aircraft in service tat we need to replace before anymore loss of life and property. These accidents also do not look well on the air force own image and need to be taken care off. there had been rumors that the JF-17 production have slowed due to funds and gov must pay attention and make the funds available. 
If PAF cannot go for new platforms in form of J-10B or else it is understandable but losing JF-17 production is not good at all. Need to maintain some sort of balance and deterrence.


----------



## Salahuddin_ayyubi

Taygibay said:


> Requiescat In Pacem!
> A useful and honorable job equals an honorable death!
> Salute and respect.


A Friend of mine's elder brother is Mirage Pilot he was told to his brother that PAF pilots try it at very last moment to survive the Jet. Thats why they loss their lives,


----------



## Dazzler

Salahuddin_ayyubi said:


> A Friend of mine's elder brother is Mirage Pilot he was told his brother that PAF pilots try it at very last moment to survive the Jet. Thats way they loss their lives,




what he told you is a fact. Their realization for the aircraft as a national asset is too high.

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## Armstrong

Dazzler said:


> what he told you is a fact. Their realization for the aircraft as a national asset is too high.



The Mirages are a National Asset ?  

I would understand were the analogy applied to a Jf-17 or an F-16 but a Mirage ?


----------



## Dazzler

Armstrong said:


> The Mirages are a National Asset ?
> 
> I would understand were the analogy applied to a Jf-17 or an F-16 but a Mirage ?




they are bought by tax payer's money right?

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## Armstrong

Dazzler said:


> they are bought by tax payer's money right?



Yes but the lives of our boys are worth a lot more than a '60s era aircraft given a make-over many times over !

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## Salahuddin_ayyubi

Armstrong said:


> Yes but the lives of our boys are worth a lot more than a '60s era aircraft given a make-over many times over !


Because of their efforts we can't imagine how many times they survived PAF Jets. Every one knows PAF crash ratio is very low.


----------



## SALMI

Pakistanisage said:


> Sir Dotani has a lot of experience on Mirages and he is right on the money here.
> 
> We lost a highly experieced Fighter Pilot and a Trainee in this Crash.
> 
> We have to learn to live with these limitations. These aircrafts are getting old and weary but still they are serving a purpose for a financially Strapped Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> Rest in peace brave and Gallant Warriors, your Nation will never forget your sacrifices.



Any updates regarding the most recent Mirage crash investigation?


----------



## fatman17

*Pakistan Army Helicopter Accident*
Posted on: February 21st, 2014



Pakistan Army/303rd Aviation Group Schweizer TH-300C 786117 performs a training flight at Rahwali Army Air Base on November 17, 2009. An unidentified Pakistan Army helicopter was involved in an accident today, although no injuries were reported. AFD-Alan Warnes

AN AS yet unidentified Pakistan Army helicopter was forced to make an emergency landing today during a training flight. The helicopter came down in Chakri, 37 miles (60km) southwest of Rawalpindi.
No injuries were reported to the two crew members on board, but the extent of damage to the helicopter was not reported. AFD-Dave Allport


----------



## RAMPAGE

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan Army Helicopter Accident*
> Posted on: February 21st, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Army/303rd Aviation Group Schweizer TH-300C 786117 performs a training flight at Rahwali Army Air Base on November 17, 2009. An unidentified Pakistan Army helicopter was involved in an accident today, although no injuries were reported. AFD-Alan Warnes
> 
> AN AS yet unidentified Pakistan Army helicopter was forced to make an emergency landing today during a training flight. The helicopter came down in Chakri, 37 miles (60km) southwest of Rawalpindi.
> No injuries were reported to the two crew members on board, but the extent of damage to the helicopter was not reported. AFD-Dave Allport


You should get an infraction for scaring me like this.

Notify Crashes not emergency landings !!!

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## genmirajborgza786

man please don't post in this thread uselessly until unless God forbid there is some news on the subject

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## fatman17

RAMPAGE said:


> You should get an infraction for scaring me like this.
> 
> Notify Crashes not emergency landings !!!


 
unfortunately crashes, crash landings, hard landings are all part of attrition.

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## ejaz007

This thread is a potential health hazard. Members requested to use it only in case of emergency and with caution.

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## fatman17

*Pakistan Army Helicopter Crashes While Attempting to Land*
April 5th, 2014 


AN UNIDENTIFIED Pakistan Army helicopter crash-landed close to Kuchlak Town, Balochistan province, near the city of Quetta, on April 3. [...]


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## Panther 57

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan Army Helicopter Crashes While Attempting to Land*
> April 5th, 2014
> 
> 
> AN UNIDENTIFIED Pakistan Army helicopter crash-landed close to Kuchlak Town, Balochistan province, near the city of Quetta, on April 3. [...]


any information on pilots


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## fatman17

nothing so far....trying to get local news


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## Areesh

Panther 57 said:


> any information on pilots



It crashed landed due to bad weather. There was news of one officer getting injured. No casualty. Read it on Geo news.

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## Informant

Plane damaged, repairable. Pilots injured non threateningly.


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## fatman17

*Helicopter’s crash landing takes place in Quetta; injures official*
By Essa Tareen | Apr 3rd, 2014 | 10:46 pm |





*QUETTA: A military helicopter belonging to Pakistan’s Army has reportedly done emergency landing on Thursday into an open area of Kuchlak town of Quetta, the provincial capital of Balochistan.*

A military official got minor injuries following the the helicopter’s emergency landing due to heavy rainfall across majority areas of Balochistan province today, security sources said.

According to reports, the helicopter was landed due to heavy foggy climate and rainfall at the location and no casualty has been reported except resulting slight injuries to a staff member but other crew escaped safe in the incident.

Three more military helicopters have reached on the spot for rescue activities while contingents of Frontier Corps (FC) has been deployed for its security.

The helicopter would be taken to military’s Khalid Airbase located in the provincial capital of Balochistan tomorrow.


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## Blackpearl

Which type of helo is this, MI17 or B412


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## Jango

Blackpearl said:


> Which type of helo is this, MI17 or B412



Heard that it was an Mi-17...but no concrete word.

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## naveen mishra

*ISLAMABAD: A Pakistan army aircraft crashed near the city of Gujranwala on Tuesday killing both pilots on board, the military said.*
The military said in a statement a "small two-seater Mushshak aircraft on a routine training flight crashed due to technical fault near Gujranwala," 151 kilometres (93 miles) southeast of Islamabad.

"Both the pilots embraced shahadat (martyrdom)", it added.

The Pakistan army uses Mushshak aircraft to train pilots commissioned in its aviation wing. 

The aircraft, which is manufactured indigenously, is a big source of export earnings for Pakistan and sold to several Middle Eastern countries.

The exact cost of the aircraft and number sold have not been made public. -- AFP
- See more at: Two killed in Pakistan army aircraft crash - Latest - New Straits Times

Two killed in Pakistan army aircraft crash - Latest - New Straits Times

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## Parul

Already Posted.

Mushak crashes in Gujranwala | Page 2


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## SBD-3

Army aviation using Mashaks?


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## nomi007

pakistan need to replace with old mushaks with new advance mushaks
nor invest in 
*Aero L-159 Alca*
invest in 
*TAI Hürkuş*
or in
*KAI KT-1 Woongbi*


----------



## fatman17

*Crew Escape Crash-Landing of Pakistan Army Mi-17*
April 8th, 2014 


A PAKISTAN Army Mi-17 helicopter encountered a technical malfunction and crash landed yesterday, April 7, close to FC Camp, near [...]
*Two Crew Killed in Pakistan Army Mushshak Crash*
April 8th, 2014 


A PAKISTAN Army AMF MFI-17 Mushshak aircraft crashed today, April 8, as a result of a technical fault during a [...]


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## IND151

2 Pilots dead as Pak Army plane crashes in Gujranwala | idrw.org


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## MilSpec

rip...very unfortunate.


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## fatman17

*Crew Escape Pakistan Army Aviation AH-1 Crash*
April 18th, 2014 


A PAKISTAN Army Aviation AH-1 Cobra attack helicopter crash-landed on April 16 on the runway at Peshawar-Bacha Khan International Airport, [...]


----------



## Blackpearl

fatman17 said:


> *Crew Escape Pakistan Army Aviation AH-1 Crash*
> April 18th, 2014
> 
> 
> A PAKISTAN Army Aviation AH-1 Cobra attack helicopter crash-landed on April 16 on the runway at Peshawar-Bacha Khan International Airport, [...]




any further details???


----------



## fatman17

Blackpearl said:


> any further details???


 
no but this is the 3rd attrition loss in the last 6 months and all when the crews were on training sorties.


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## nomi007

kindly share any 1 this pic to pAA and PA only way to save the lives of pilots


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## Blackpearl

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 25268
> kindly share any 1 this pic to pAA and PA only way to save the lives of pilots



Theoretically possible but impracticable,


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## nomi007

Blackpearl said:


> Theoretically possible but impracticable,


why impossible already used by different companies


----------



## Black Eagle 90

I think PAF most equipment is old. Needs replacement.


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## Indus Falcon

Black Eagle 90 said:


> I think PAF most equipment is old. Needs replacement.


You would be a perfect candidate for a brain transplant, with a monkey!

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## elitepilot09

^ Nishan 101/BlackEagle90... guaranteed.


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## ejaz007

Reports are coming in of a possible training plane crash in Karachi.

Source ARY News.


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## Zarvan

ejaz007 said:


> Reports are coming in of a possible training plane crash in Karachi.
> 
> Source ARY News.


Yes a Plane has crashed in Baldia Town two bodies recovered from the Plane


----------



## Jango

Plane crashes in Karachi's Baldia Town; two pilots killed - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

According to the above link, it was a Mirage (Although the spellings are wrong).

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## Zarvan

nuclearpak said:


> Plane crashes in Karachi's Baldia Town; two pilots killed - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> According to the above link, it was a Mirage (Although the spellings are wrong).


Not good for our Air Force we lost a Mirage need to replace them fast with JF-17 death toll rises to 3


----------



## Assault Rifle

nuclearpak said:


> Plane crashes in Karachi's Baldia Town; two pilots killed - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> According to the above link, it was a Mirage (Although the spellings are wrong).



Several casualties on the ground too.
Early reports said it was a cessna but now they say it was a jet.


----------



## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Plane crashes in Karachi's Baldia Town; two pilots killed - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> According to the above link, it was a Mirage (Although the spellings are wrong).


ET is saying something else.

*KARACHI: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) training aircraft crashed in Baldia Town, Karachi, Express News reported on Tuesday.*

The aircraft landed in an unpopulated area and no loss of life was reported. The plane erupted in flames after the crash and a fire brigade is in the area to extinguish the fire.

The area was cordoned off and ambulances have also arrived at the location.

The reason for the crash is not known at this time.

_This is an ongoing story and will be updated accordingly._


----------



## Jango

As always, every news channel giving it's own theory.

Some are quoting eyewitnesses as saying that the aircraft was on fire and was coming down. 

It scraped the top of the bus (the roof is sheared off) and then crashed into the open area.

A parachute is also visible, corroborating the eyewitness accounts that at least one pilot did eject.

Very sad news.

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ

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## nair

RIP dead......



nuclearpak said:


> *As always, every news channel giving it's own theory.
> *
> Some are quoting eyewitnesses as saying that the aircraft was on fire and was coming down.
> 
> It scraped the top of the bus (the roof is sheared off) and then crashed into the open area.
> 
> A parachute is also visible, corroborating the eyewitness accounts that at least one pilot did eject.
> 
> Very sad news.
> 
> إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ



That is the sad part of competition between 24/7 news channels, every one want to be the first to report, and in this hurry, the first causality is *"Truth"*


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## Windjammer



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## Panther 57

nuclearpak said:


> As always, every news channel giving it's own theory.
> 
> Some are quoting eyewitnesses as saying that the aircraft was on fire and was coming down.
> 
> It scraped the top of the bus (the roof is sheared off) and then crashed into the open area.
> 
> A parachute is also visible, corroborating the eyewitness accounts that at least one pilot did eject.
> 
> Very sad news.
> 
> إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


It may be a drag chute confused with parachute. So far news is declaring 5 causalities including two pilots.

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## Windjammer

Some reports saying plane exploded in mid-air, if true then there's little hope for the plots. A very sad day indeed.

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## Assault Rifle

@Windjammer

ET is now reporting 2 pilots are dead.

Two pilots dead as PAF training aircraft crashes in Karachi – The Express Tribune


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## Devil Soul

*إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ*
*May Allah grant the departed souls a place in Jannah & Sabr to the families....
a great loss indeed *

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## maxpayne

_*KARACHI: Four persons including the pilot and co-pilot were killed and three others injured when a training jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed in Baldia Town area of Karachi on Tuesday, Geo News reported.*

According to sources, a PAF fighter jet crashed near a bus stand in Yousuf Goth area of Baldia Town during a routine training session. As soon as the jet came down, a blast occurred and fire broke out that engulfed several buses at the bus stand.

Four persons including a pilot, co-pilot and two civilians lost their lives in the unfortunate incident. Three others also sustained injuries in the mishap who were shifted to hospital for treatment.

The PAF spokesman has confirmed the incident.

http://www.geo.tv/article-149673-Two-pilots-among-4-killed-as-PAF-trainer-jet-crashes-in-Baldia

Rescue teams, fire brigades and PAF personnel reached the crash site and kicked off rescue efforts immediately.

Further details about the accident are yet to be confirmed.
_

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## Umair Nawaz

sad but gov should ban any flying of training purpose in city and its surrounding.........Civilians must be protected.

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## Men in Green

Rest in peace.


> *Those who served, and those who continue to serve in the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coast Guard took an oath to uphold and protect the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, and we can never forget the importance of their commitment to our Nation.*


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## Jazzbot

Sad incident. Rest in peace.


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## rockstarIN

Sad, RIP Please merge with sticky thread @Aeronaut


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## third eye

Most unfortunate...

*PAF aircraft crashes at Karachi bus station, 3 killed, four wounded*


Karachi- At least three people including both pilots of training aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force were killed when their air craft crashed at bus terminal in Yousuf Goth area of Karachi’s Baldia Town.

According to officials, the PAF’s Mirage jet crashed near a bus terminal in the Yousuf Goth area, where ten buses parked at terminal caught fire. Rescue teams including teams from the armed forces reached the crash site. PAF spokesman said both pilot and co-pilot of the ill-fated jet were martyred in the incident while one man who is said to be a bus driver also died on the ground.

Four other people on the ground also got injured. Wounded people were shifted to Civil Hospital while fire brigade vehicles started operation to control fire on accident site. A spokesman of the PAF said that the plane was on a routine training mission and had developed a technical fault in its engine.


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## Indus Falcon

nuclearpak said:


> Plane crashes in Karachi's Baldia Town; two pilots killed - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> According to the above link, it was a Mirage (Although the spellings are wrong).


Ina lillahi wa ina ilahi rajaeon. Very sad news.


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## nomi007

REST IN PEACE


----------



## BDforever

RIP


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## nomi007



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## Side-Winder

Damn! RIP the departed souls!
We need to boost the production of JFTs to replace the mirages as soon as possible.

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## acetophenol

A Mushak I guess?
Rest In Peace,they've made the supreme sacrifice.


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## Basel

R.I.P very sad news. 

did we have Mushak's at Karachi for training??


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## nomi007

pakistan need more advance basic trainers aircrafts as well as to replace mirages and f-7s with new jf-17 thunders on immediately

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## SALMI

We lost Wing commander Khurram Samad and Squadron Leader Umair Elahi in the accident. May Allah Almighty bless them with best place in heaven and grant Sabr-e-Jameel to the their families.

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## CENTCOM

Our heart and prayers go out to the families and friends of the pilots who died in this crash. We sincerely hope that they will find the strength to deal with this tragedy.

Ali Khan 
Digital Engagement Team, USCENTCOM

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## third eye

Umair Nawaz said:


> sad but gov should ban any flying of training purpose in city and its surrounding.........Civilians must be protected.



Training sorties are always in designated flying areas & they are well away from cities.

Unfortunately, cities have expanded in a manner that they have grown around & beyond airfields.

An aircraft on its home run is compelled to fly over populated areas .


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## Dazzler

RIP to brave souls, very sad indeed !


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## Basel

*إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ *


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## rockstar08

RIP


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## TheNoob

Arent these accidents happening alot lately? :s


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## trident2010

*Four killed in Pakistan air force plane crash*

KARACHI: A Pakistan air force fighter plane crashed at a bus terminal on the outskirts of Karachi on Tuesday, killing at least four people and injuring nine, officials said.

The accident happened in the Baldia Town district just west of Karachi, Pakistan's biggest city and commercial hub.

"Both pilots embraced martyrdom in the fighter jet crash today," an air force spokesman said.

Police said two people on the ground were also killed and nine injured. Sajid Sadozai, a senior police official said two buses parked at the terminal were destroyed while another was damaged.

TV footage showed plumes of black smoke rising from the scene as rescue teams rushed in.

Another security official said the crashed plane was a Mirage fighter jet. Pakistan has a large fleet of refurbished Mirages.

The air force blamed the crash on technical reasons but gave no details. 


Four killed in Pakistan air force plane crash - The Times of India


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## Basel

Why pilots were not able to eject timely??


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## Zhukov

Why not Spend some Fucking Dollars on some quality Ejection Seats?
Pilot Life is Priceless Plane can go to hell.
There are so many incidents of Pilots going down in these kind of crashes these days. Every Plane should be fitted with Modern Ejection seats probably Martin Baker one?

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## Basel

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> Why not Spend some Fucking Dollars on some quality Ejection Seats?
> Pilot Life is Priceless Plane can go to hell.
> There are so many incidents of Pilots going down in these kind of crashes these days. Every Plane should be fitted with Modern Ejection seats probably Martin Baker one?



On many occasions it has been shown that Martin Baker seats are used in air crafts for safety of the pilots, but why those are not working??


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## Munir

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> Why not Spend some Fucking Dollars on some quality Ejection Seats?
> Pilot Life is Priceless Plane can go to hell.
> There are so many incidents of Pilots going down in these kind of crashes these days. Every Plane should be fitted with Modern Ejection seats probably Martin Baker one?



I think the philosophy you have seems to be logical but planes are priceless and avoiding casualties is something that can be seen beyond human logical sacrifice... Certainly westerners where they hardly care about collateral anywhere the world.


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## Informant

Munir said:


> I think the philosophy you have seems to be logical but planes are priceless and avoiding casualties is something that can be seen beyond human logical sacrifice... Certainly westerners where they hardly care about collateral anywhere the world.



Pilots probably didnt bail out to avoid the population centers. Albeit their efforts proved futile.

Rest in peace oh men of the sky.


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## ynmian

I am sure it must be some Chinese jet. It cant be mushak as I can see long cylindrical jets in pictures.

I am also not confident with J17 from safety point of view.


Informant said:


> Pilots probably didnt bail out to avoid the population centers. Albeit their efforts proved futile.
> 
> Rest in peace oh men of the sky.


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## LonE_WolF

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


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## atlssa

It seems the plane was a Mirage Jet


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## Gryphon

*Pakistan Air Force Mirage*

*Date: *June 3, 2014
*Nationality: *Pakistan Air Force
*Type: *Unconfirmed, possibly a Mirage
*Serial No.: *Unknown
Following a technical malfunction, this two-seat Mirage crashed into a bus terminal on the outskirts of Karachi, killing both the instructor and student pilot, plus at least one other person, while eight others on the ground suffered severe burns. The accident occurred in the Baldia Town district of Karachi, after the pilot lost control, moments before landing at PAF Base Masroor. Two buses parked at the terminal were destroyed while another was damaged.

*Pakistan Air Force Mirage | AirForces Daily*

*Pakistan AF Mirage Crashes into Bus Terminal
*
Posted on: June 3rd, 2014
*




*
_Pakistan Air Force (PAF)/25 Squadron Mirage 5DD 04-002 (a former Libyan Air Force aircraft) taxies out for a training mission on February 18, 2007, at PAF Base Kamra-Minhas. A PAF fighter, which some unconfirmed reports say was a two-seat Mirage, crashed into a bus terminal in Karachi today, killing at least two people. AFD-Alan Warnes_

A PAKISTAN Air Force (PAF) two-seat Dassault Mirage crashed into a bus terminal in the Baldia Town district, on the outskirts of Karachi today, June 3, following a technical malfunction. Both the instructor and student pilot, plus at least one other person, were killed, while eight others on the ground suffered severe burns.

The accident occurred after the pilot lost control, moments before landing at PAF Base Masroor. Two buses parked at the terminal were also destroyed while another was damaged. AFD-Dave Allport
*
Pakistan AF Mirage Crashes into Bus Terminal | AirForces Daily
*


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## A.Rafay

RIP to the brave pilots. Sad incident.


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## PakEye

maxpayne said:


> _*KARACHI: Four persons including the pilot and co-pilot were killed and three others injured when a training jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed in Baldia Town area of Karachi on Tuesday, Geo News reported.*
> 
> According to sources, a PAF fighter jet crashed near a bus stand in Yousuf Goth area of Baldia Town during a routine training session. As soon as the jet came down, a blast occurred and fire broke out that engulfed several buses at the bus stand.
> 
> Four persons including a pilot, co-pilot and two civilians lost their lives in the unfortunate incident. Three others also sustained injuries in the mishap who were shifted to hospital for treatment.
> 
> The PAF spokesman has confirmed the incident.
> 
> Two pilots among 4 killed as PAF trainer jet crashes in Baldia | PAKISTAN - geo.tv
> 
> Rescue teams, fire brigades and PAF personnel reached the crash site and kicked off rescue efforts immediately.
> 
> Further details about the accident are yet to be confirmed._


* training jet or*
_ fighter jet ???_


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## truthseeker2010

pakeye said:


> * training jet or*
> _ fighter jet ???_


 mirage, 2 seater which is used for conversion.

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## A.Rafay

Innalilah wa inna ilahi rajeon RIP.


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## atlssa

*Pakistan Air Force Jet Crashes, Killing 3*
KARACHI, Pakistan June 3, 2014 (AP)

A Pakistan air force fighter jet crashed into the country's largest city after a technical fault Tuesday, killing two pilots and a civilian on the ground, authorities said.

Air force spokesman Tariq Mahmood said the *Mirage jet* was on a routine training mission when it went down at a bus terminal in the Yousuf Goth neighborhood in Karachi, the capital of southern Sindh province.

Shortly after the crash, local news channels showed its burning wreckage as firefighters worked to douse the flames.

Mahmood identified the slain pilots as Wing Commander Khurram Sammad and Squadron Leader Umair Elahi.

He said a board of inquiry had been formed to determine what caused the crash, and the air force would compensate for the loss of life and civilian property. The Pakistan air force provided no details about any civilian losses, but police officer Sajid Sadozai said one civilian was killed and three buses were damaged in the crash.

He said authorities have transported all the dead to hospitals in the city.

Pakistan's air force has suffered similar crashes in the past.

Pakistan Air Force Jet Crashes, Killing 3 - ABC News

BTW, I'm sorry for the losses.
R.I.P all those who lost their life!


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## SQ8

Considering that the airframes at Karachi are among some of the oldest, not surprising. 
Sadly, the paucity of funds means that you have no choice in when and where you lose your assets.


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## Jango

Quite a big impact, the engine has been separated from the outer body.

Perhaps the workers are carrying the ejection seat along with half-deployed parachute (going with the eyewitness accounts that at least one pilot did seem to eject). Maybe the pilot ejected too close to the ground while the aircraft was inverted? (The landing gear are facing upwards in the images)






Serial Number 003.



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> _Pakistan Air Force (PAF)/25 Squadron Mirage 5DD 04-002 (a former Libyan Air Force aircraft) taxies out for a training mission on February 18, 2007, at PAF Base Kamra-Minhas. A PAF fighter, which some unconfirmed reports say was a two-seat Mirage, crashed into a bus terminal in Karachi today, killing at least two people. AFD-Alan Warnes_



Incidentally, it's the aircraft with the serial number next to the one pictured...04-003.


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## baqai

Wing Cdr and Sdr Ldr wow both senior pilots what a loss


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## Bratva

> The accident occurred in the Baldia Town district of Karachi, after the pilot lost control, moments before landing at PAF Base Masroor.



The reason pilots died imho. Plane must be at 1000-1500 ft, technical fault occurred, got in to irrecoverable spin,didn't had time to eject, one who tried but close proximity to ground rendered his efforts useless



baqai said:


> Wing Cdr and Sdr Ldr wow both senior pilots what a loss



10-15 Squadron leaders have been perished in crashes in last two years

It's second crash of dual seater mirage this year.

2 Wing commanders, one flying officer and one squadron leader has been killed in 2014

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## alibaz

Basel said:


> Why pilots were not able to eject timely??



Probably it caught fire in air and the pilots tried to take aircraft away from dense population and in their effort they lost precious seconds. Anyways just guesses, inquiry will establish exact causes. 
May Allah bless all the lost souls with peace who lost their lives in this accident and early recovery of the injured ones.

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## Pinnacle

Very very very sad incident. May departed souls rest in peace... cant stop my tears now!!  A wing commander and a squardon leader! what a loss for our air force. Please replace these damn old mirages..


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## foxbat

Why would a Wing Commander and a Sq Leader flying a training mission together. A trained pilot with a rookie one would be the normal combination on training flights.

RIP



Windjammer said:


> Some reports saying plane exploded in mid-air, if true then there's little hope for the plots. A very sad day indeed.


Is a bomb explosion being considered a possibility. Given the mid air explosion theory


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## Jango

foxbat said:


> Why would a Wing Commander and a Sq Leader flying a training mission together. A trained pilot with a rookie one would be the normal combination on training flights.
> 
> RIP



In Pakistan, every two seater is called a training jet and every crash called a 'crash during a training flight'.

TBH though, every mission is a training of sorts, hands on training. 

Anyways, perhaps the Squadron Leader was transitioning or something like that...anything is possible.

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## Jango

F-22P said:


> Do you support that PAF should move all of the Mirages to Punjab region and brings in JF-17s in Sindh region.



No.

I mean what's the logic in it?

Your argument of moving jets around the country and concentrating a singular type of attacking force in one specific region on the basis of maintenance support does not hold water.

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## Indus Falcon

F-22P said:


> may be you are right!!! But I think its good. or let PAF think which is better...


Are you Nishan? Tell us the truth, you won't get banned.

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## khanboy007

the last accident was a 2 seat mirage as well !!!!

whats with them crashing !!!! 

IMO this needs investigation and a thorough one to pick out the fault thats taking on the fleet


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## dexter

کراچی میں پاک فضائیہ کا تربیتی طیارہ مسرور بیس کے باہر بس ٹرمینل کے قریب گر کر تباہ ہو گیا، حادثے میں پائلٹ سمیت چار افراد جاں بحق اور 8 زخمی ہو گئے، پائلٹ نے اپنی جان دیکر سیکڑوں جانوں کو بچا لیا





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=791657164218324

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## AUSTERLITZ

RIP.Old junk killing pilots on both sides.


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## Windjammer

foxbat said:


> Is a bomb explosion being considered a possibility. Given the mid air explosion theory


Every inch of a fighter jet is packed with something sensitive, a minor fire can prove catastrophic. Here you can see a perfect looking flight disintegrates after going supersonic.

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## Tacticool

If we look at wikipedia data all major crashes occured after 2006-2007. We lost many planes mirages, f-7s, mushak and one f-16. Do you think quality of maintenance went down or corruption is rising?


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## fatman17

Pakistan AF Mirage Crashes into Bus Terminal
June 3rd, 2014 


A PAKISTAN Air Force (PAF) two-seat Dassault Mirage crashed into a bus terminal in the Baldia Town district, on the outskirts […]


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## foxbat

Windjammer said:


> Every inch of a fighter jet is packed with something sensitive, a minor fire can prove catastrophic. Here you can see a perfect looking flight disintegrates after going supersonic.


Fair point. Wanted to know if sabotage is an angle being explored.


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## SQ8

foxbat said:


> Fair point. Wanted to know if sabotage is an angle being explored.


Nein, I would be more suspecting of bird strike. People in the area dump their garbage that includes old food items all around the flightpath of airfields(_due to the open space surrounding them and the rather easy way one can throw their trash out there instead of making the effort to take it to the trash dumps_). This attracts scavengers by the dozens and has led to many bird strikes in the past. Both seagulls, eagles and crows throng the flightpath of some localities. 
In certain cases this led to increasing the airfield perimeter to deter these poor or ignorant folk that live near the area from dumping their trash near the field. It is sad that just due to poor hygiene and bad attitude of both the people and the municipal government, pilots lose their lives.

The IAF finally took the inititave in a much more comprehensive role as it has suffered just as much(or more in some cases due to the geographical location of some IAFS). 


> The biggest damage to aircraft is caused by vultures, kites and other raptors. Vultures and kites are basically scavengers which feed on the offal matter that is thrown in the open. Availability of this food in the vicinity of the aerodrome increases their population and thereby dangerously increases the
> 2 Aerospace Safety A u g u s t 2 0 1 2 INDIAN AIR FORCE“No person shall slaughter or ﬂ ay any animal or deposit or drop any rubbish, ﬁlth garbage or any other polluted or obnoxious matter including such material from hotels, meat shops, ﬁ sh shops and bone processing mills which attract or are likely to attract vultures and other birds and animals within a radius of 10 Km
> from the Aerodrome Reference Point.(Aircraft Amendment Rules, 2009; Published vide Ministry of Civil Aviation
> Notiﬁ cation {G.S.R 532E} dated 16 Jul 2009)probability of their strike. This was taken cognizance of in India as early as 1937 (decades before the boom in aviation). The Aircraft Rules 1937, is a subsidiary document to the Aircraft Act 1934 which
> governs the operations of aircraft in the country. Rule 91 of the Aircraft Rules (as amended in 2009) is given in the box. The rule provides teeth to hold accountable personnel responsible for enhancement of bird activity in an area of up to 10 Km from the Aerodrome Reference Point (ARP).


http://indianairforce.nic.in/fsmagazines/AUGUST 12.pdf

India Buys Bird-Strike Radars | Aviation International News

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## Jango

dexter said:


> کراچی میں پاک فضائیہ کا تربیتی طیارہ مسرور بیس کے باہر بس ٹرمینل کے قریب گر کر تباہ ہو گیا، حادثے میں پائلٹ سمیت چار افراد جاں بحق اور 8 زخمی ہو گئے، پائلٹ نے اپنی جان دیکر سیکڑوں جانوں کو بچا لیا
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=791657164218324



At 00:57, is that the helmet? In a previous screenshot of the same area, there is a parachute and something resembling a mangled seat over there as well.

At 00:45, good to see the respect people have for military professionals.

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> At 00:57, is that the helmet? In a previous screenshot of the same area, there is a parachute and something resembling a mangled seat over there as well.
> 
> At 00:45, good to see the respect people have for military professionals.


As disclosed before, just to avoid the bus terminal, the pilot stayed with his aircraft until the last moment, it seems once in the clear, he ejected but being so low his parachute failed to deploy. A supreme sacrifice indeed.

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## Luftwaffe

nuclearpak said:


> Plane crashes in Karachi's Baldia Town; two pilots killed - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> According to the above link, it was a Mirage (Although the spellings are wrong).



Yes Mirage Both Pilots Wg Cdr Khurram and Sqd Leader Umair has embraced Shahadat. Other reports says it came low as there were pole electrical wires.

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## Xeenon

RIP to the brave warriors!!!!
PAF should seriously consider replacement of these fighters with JF-17s as soon as more are available. We are losing precious lives because of these old birds.


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## Rahil khan

Luftwaffe said:


> Yes Mirage Both Pilots Wg Cdr Khurram and Sqd Leader Umair has embraced Shahadat. Other reports says it came low as there were pole electrical wires.



Mere Khaak-o-Khoon Se Tu Ne Ye Jahan Kiya Hai Paida
Sila-e-Shaheed Kya Hai, Tab-o-Taab-e-Javidana

Salute to our Shaheeds, Our Heroes, Our Pride..!!


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## third eye

From what I have read on this case, I will be very surprised if it isn't a bird hit.

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## Inception-06

Oscar said:


> Nein, I would be more suspecting of bird strike. People in the area dump their garbage that includes old food items all around the flightpath of airfields(_due to the open space surrounding them and the rather easy way one can throw their trash out there instead of making the effort to take it to the trash dumps_). This attracts scavengers by the dozens and has led to many bird strikes in the past. Both seagulls, eagles and crows throng the flightpath of some localities.
> In certain cases this led to increasing the airfield perimeter to deter these poor or ignorant folk that live near the area from dumping their trash near the field. It is sad that just due to poor hygiene and bad attitude of both the people and the municipal government, pilots lose their lives.
> 
> The IAF finally took the inititave in a much more comprehensive role as it has suffered just as much(or more in some cases due to the geographical location of some IAFS).
> 
> http://indianairforce.nic.in/fsmagazines/AUGUST 12.pdf
> 
> India Buys Bird-Strike Radars | Aviation International News



Than the PAF needs a better politic and tactic to clean his flight areas !


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## aliyusuf

I think the civil administration should get off its butt and start doing its bit and cooperate 100% with the PAF in clearing the area surrounding the Masroor base of everything that attracts birds.

This has gone on long enough!


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## Basel

alibaz said:


> Probably it caught fire in air and the pilots tried to take aircraft away from dense population and in their effort they lost precious seconds. Anyways just guesses, inquiry will establish exact causes.
> May Allah bless all the lost souls with peace who lost their lives in this accident and early recovery of the injured ones.



but modern ejection seats allow pilots to eject at low altitudes, why our pilots are not ejecting safely??


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## Wingman

khanboy007 said:


> the last accident was a 2 seat mirage as well !!!!
> 
> whats with them crashing !!!!
> 
> IMO this needs investigation and a thorough one to pick out the fault thats taking on the fleet


In the last Mirage crash where a wing commander and a flying officer died; attributed to bad weather and in this case it was a technical fault and pilots laid their lives in saving Precious lives on ground,


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## Rafi

Basel said:


> but modern ejection seats allow pilots to eject at low altitudes, why our pilots are not ejecting safely??



Pilots staying in the plane - to the last second, to avoid casualties on the ground, these guys took valor to the line and then crossed it.

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## Wingman

Mirage's ejection system is not like F 16 Which allows pilots to eject at low altitude... F 6s were bought in 1966 and seats Changed in 1974,... A 5s were Purchased in 1983 and MB seats were introduced in 1991 after Losing 7 pilots in 8 crashes..

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## Wingman

Fulcrum15 said:


> In Pakistan, every two seater is called a training jet and every crash called a 'crash during a training flight'.
> 
> TBH though, every mission is a training of sorts, hands on training.
> 
> Anyways, perhaps the Squadron Leader was transitioning or something like that...anything is possible.



It depends upon the Nature of the Mission, Nothing unusual,


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## Panther 57

Wingman said:


> Mirage's ejection system is not like F 16 Which allows pilots to eject at low altitude... F 6s were bought in 1966 and seats Changed in 1974,... A 5s were Purchased in 1983 and MB seats were introduced in 1991 after Losing 7 pilots in 8 crashes..


Interestingly Chinese seats are all mechanical, I remember one of my No 2 saying to me after he ejected on my call. "You once said though it does not fire but there is no harm trying it. I did and there I am still alive." . If I am not wrong Mirage has a zero zero.



Xeenon said:


> RIP to the brave warriors!!!!
> PAF should seriously consider replacement of these fighters with JF-17s as soon as more are available. We are losing precious lives because of these old birds.


My dear your government is hell bent upon reducing defence production budget, salute them who are still fighting with old weapons in all three arms.



Ulla said:


> Than the PAF needs a better politic and tactic to clean his flight areas !


How can PAF control corrupt SBCA, just like how rangers can clean up Karachi with political influence

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## Alphacharlie

Dont your Mirages have Zero Zero Ejection Seats ?


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## SQ8

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> If we look at wikipedia data all major crashes occured after 2006-2007. We lost many planes mirages, f-7s, mushak and one f-16. Do you think quality of maintenance went down or corruption is rising?


Flight hours also went up. Pilots are flying more than the usual.. and in addition, the airframes are slowly starting to show their age.

The F-16 went down due to CFIT, essentially pilot error.



Alphacharlie said:


> Dont your Mirages have Zero Zero Ejection Seats ?



Zero Zero does not account for rolling out of control at less than 100 feet when trying to save people in a bus terminal


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## Alphacharlie

Oscar said:


> Flight hours also went up. Pilots are flying more than the usual.. and in addition, the airframes are slowly starting to show their age.
> 
> The F-16 went down due to CFIT, essentially pilot error.
> 
> 
> 
> Zero Zero does not account for rolling out of control at less than 100 feet when trying to save people in a bus terminal



Painful.


----------



## alibaz

Basel said:


> but modern ejection seats allow pilots to eject at low altitudes, why our pilots are not ejecting safely??


Once plane is on fire and pilots attempting to take aircraft out of population, the fire affected systems keep going down definitely time comes when nothing works even ejection seat doesn't fire or crew become incapacitated and mind you hundreds of degrees temperature right behind someone's back doesn't take more than seconds to reach cockpit.


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## Basel

alibaz said:


> Once plane is on fire and pilots attempting to take aircraft out of population, the fire affected systems keep going down definitely time comes when nothing works even ejection seat doesn't fire or crew become incapacitated and mind you hundreds of degrees temperature right behind someone's back doesn't take more than seconds to reach cockpit.



but at least one pilot could have ejected, they were senior officers and their lives were precious.


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## Chak Bamu

It is so difficult to educate people about the danger of bird-strike. It would be better to construct another base out of the city and allocate enough area that issue of bird strike never come in because of ignorant and uncaring population. What a waste of precious lives and hardware.


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## Panther 57

Basel said:


> but at least one pilot could have ejected, they were senior officers and their lives were precious.


my dear no one knows what they went through in the cockpit except them. It is until the inquiry is complete some jigsaw pieces will be put in place to rebuild the story. Yet actual happening has gone with them to the heavens above.

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## mike bennett

Windjammer said:


> As disclosed before, just to avoid the bus terminal, the pilot stayed with his aircraft until the last moment, it seems once in the clear, he ejected but being so low his parachute failed to deploy. A supreme sacrifice indeed.


Please excuse my question.
Has the plane definitely been identified as a Mirage?
I want to ensure I have the details correct.
With greatest respect
Mike Bennett
www.ejection-history.org.uk


----------



## Bratva

mike bennett said:


> Please excuse my question.
> Has the plane definitely been identified as a Mirage?
> I want to ensure I have the details correct.
> With greatest respect
> Mike Bennett
> www.ejection-history.org.uk



Yes, it was two seat Mirage

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## mike bennett

Dear Panther57,

Can you contact me offline about the ejection you mention?
Mike Bennett
mbenshar@aol.com


----------



## mike bennett

mafiya said:


> Yes, it was two seat Mirage


Thank you for the quick reply.
Can you confirm?
Dassault Mirage 5DD
04-003
8 Squadron
Masroor Air Base
with respect


----------



## Myth_buster_1

@mike bennett 

Dear

Did IAF stop losing fighter jets after 2013? or am i missing something in your site.

with respect


----------



## mike bennett

Myth_buster_1 said:


> @mike bennett
> 
> Dear
> 
> Did IAF stop losing fighter jets after 2013? or am i missing something in your site.
> 
> with respect


There were at least 3 losses in 2014 - they are shown on the Year page
2014

I haven't yet transferred them to the IAF Losses page.
best regards
Mike


----------



## Bratva

mike bennett said:


> Thank you for the quick reply.
> Can you confirm?
> Dassault Mirage 5DD
> 04-003
> 8 Squadron
> Masroor Air Base
> with respect



Yes it was 04-003


----------



## alibaz

Basel said:


> but at least one pilot could have ejected, they were senior officers and their lives were precious.


Logically correct but I think it's very difficult decision to leave your buddy to let die once mission is not complete. And very few seconds only are available to decide.


----------



## SALMI

Fulcrum15 said:


> At 00:57, is that the helmet? In a previous screenshot of the same area, there is a parachute and something resembling a mangled seat over there as well.
> 
> At 00:45, good to see the respect people have for military professionals.


Yes, it is broken helmet. I also saw dismantled canopy and parachute in the recent snaps. It is quite possible that at the last moment when they pulled the ejection cord, the jet got inverted. Landing gear in inverted position was also witnes


Wingman said:


> In the last Mirage crash where a wing commander and a flying officer died; attributed to bad weather and in this case it was a technical fault and pilots laid their lives in saving Precious lives on ground,


Can you please elaborate the role of bad weather in the last Mirage crash?


----------



## Devil Soul

Wg Cdr Khurram and Sqn Ldr Umair Shaheed. May Allah give you the highest ranks in Jannah. Aameen.





(L) Squadron Leader Umair Elahi and (R) Wing Commander Khurram Sammad.


----------



## fatman17

*Two pilots martyred in army helicopter crash *

June 26, 2014 - Updated 055 PKT 
From Web Edition






*MULTAN: Two pilots were martyred Wednesday when an army helicopter crashed in Multan while carrying out a training exercise, military officials said.*
"Two army aviation pilots embraced martyrdom when their helicopter crashed during a night flying training mission due to a technical fault at Multan tonight," the military said in a statement.
A senior military official told AFP that a dust storm that hit the aviation base as the helicopter was taking off could have been a factor in the crash.
The official and the statement did not give the type of helicopter, but army has Russian and American helicopters in its fleet. (AFP)

another Cobra crash.



Devil Soul said:


> Wg Cdr Khurram and Sqn Ldr Umair Shaheed. May Allah give you the highest ranks in Jannah. Aameen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (L) Squadron Leader Umair Elahi and (R) Wing Commander Khurram Sammad.


 
such pictures should not be posted -

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## Panther 57

fatman17 said:


> *Two pilots martyred in army helicopter crash *
> 
> June 26, 2014 - Updated 055 PKT
> From Web Edition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *MULTAN: Two pilots were martyred Wednesday when an army helicopter crashed in Multan while carrying out a training exercise, military officials said.*
> "Two army aviation pilots embraced martyrdom when their helicopter crashed during a night flying training mission due to a technical fault at Multan tonight," the military said in a statement.
> A senior military official told AFP that a dust storm that hit the aviation base as the helicopter was taking off could have been a factor in the crash.
> The official and the statement did not give the type of helicopter, but army has Russian and American helicopters in its fleet. (AFP)
> 
> another Cobra crash.
> 
> 
> 
> such pictures should not be posted -


Innalillah. 

And I agree to your point on posting of such pictures.


----------



## Tangent

fatman17 said:


> *Two pilots martyred in army helicopter crash *
> 
> June 26, 2014 - Updated 055 PKT
> From Web Edition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *MULTAN: Two pilots were martyred Wednesday when an army helicopter crashed in Multan while carrying out a training exercise, military officials said.*
> "Two army aviation pilots embraced martyrdom when their helicopter crashed during a night flying training mission due to a technical fault at Multan tonight," the military said in a statement.
> A senior military official told AFP that a dust storm that hit the aviation base as the helicopter was taking off could have been a factor in the crash.
> The official and the statement did not give the type of helicopter, but army has Russian and American helicopters in its fleet. (AFP)
> 
> another Cobra crash.
> 
> 
> 
> such pictures should not be posted -


Is the helicopter type confirmed???


----------



## razgriz19

Tangent said:


> Is the helicopter type confirmed???



Cobra


----------



## Rajput_Pakistani

Very Sad

News coming in of a PAF plane crash in Sargodha


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Damn. Hope not :/


----------



## Gentelman

Latest news state that it was UAV which crashed near Sarghoda.............


----------



## Zarvan

Gentelman said:


> Latest news state that it was UAV which crashed near Sarghoda.............


than good if really UAV

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## Chak Bamu

UAV 'crash landing'. If there is such a thing.


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## nomi007

when media hightigt sargodha 
f-16 1st comes in mind
thanks GOD its an a uav

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## Al Bhatti

August 10, 2014

*Pakistani drone crashes near air base*
Military uses locally made drones for surveillance in a country now fighting a Taliban and militant insurgency

An air force spokesman in Pakistan says one of his country’s drones has crashed while trying to land at a base.

Air Commodore Tariq Mahmood said the drone crashed on Sunday during a routine flight in eastern Punjab province. Mahmood says the drone sustained minor damage in the crash and that no one was injured on the ground.

Pakistan’s military uses locally made drones for surveillance in a country now fighting a Taliban and militant insurgency.

The US also conducts drone strikes on suspected militants in the country, a source of tension between Washington and Islamabad. The US strikes had seen a six-month lull until a recent Pakistani offensive in its North Waziristan tribal region against militants there.

Source: Pakistani drone crashes near air base


----------



## razgriz19

Chak Bamu said:


> UAV 'crash landing'. If there is such a thing.



probably gear collapse, or veering of the runway.
They do land automatically


----------



## rohailmalhi

Damn this thread always make my heart pounding when It comes up in Latest commented threads...............


----------



## Panther 57

Chak Bamu said:


> UAV 'crash landing'. If there is such a thing.


Yes there is.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Chak Bamu said:


> UAV 'crash landing'. If there is such a thing.



it was partially destroyed, not a write-off



rohailmalhi said:


> Damn this thread always make my heart pounding when It comes up in Latest commented threads...............



seriously....me too.

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## aliyusuf

Sometimes this thread reminds me of the obituary column in news papers.


----------



## Zarvan

A Trainer Jet has crashed near Sajawal Thatta Pilot is safe


----------



## JonAsad

Bad omen to see this thread popping up so early in the morning-


----------



## Reichmarshal

Actually it's a naval uav


----------



## Junaid Ashraf

Which one it was Uqaab? or the Navy has acquired Shahpar and Burraq???


----------



## nomi007

one more uav crash near hangu kpk 
samaa news


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

link?


----------



## Informant

Shukr it was a uav.


----------



## Imran Khan

PAF‬ trainer ‪#‎aircraft‬ crashes in ‪#‎Quetta‬

*Two pilots injured as trainer aircraft crashes in Quetta*

Balochistan
Pakistan
Top Stories
5 mins ago





*QUETTA: Two pilots have been injured as Paksitan army’s trainer aircraft crashed near Loralai, Quetta on Saturday morning, Samaa News reported.*

According to reports, the aircraft was flight from Khalid Air Base.


----------



## Kompromat

These Mushaks should be replaced by Super Mushaks now.


----------



## nomi007



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## Imran Khan




----------



## Sinnerman108

It is a Helo not a Mashaq.

Two pilots injured in Ziarat helicopter crash – The Express Tribune


----------



## Basel

why those planes don't have ejection seats?


----------



## syedali73

Basel said:


> why those planes don't have ejection seats?


Probably weight (not sure though) and/or cost.


----------



## Xeric

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/513231515049017344

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## Basel

@syedali73 weight should not be an issue now as ejection seats r available for light aircrafts too, just google it.


----------



## Xeric

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/513232141476298752

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/513233104706609154

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/513234713079582720

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/513237194148814848

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## fatman17

PAC has offered to sell the SuperMushshak to the army but so for no decision has been taken...


----------



## Al Bhatti

September 20, 2014

*Pakistan army aircraft crashes in Quetta*
*Two pilots injured*

A Pakistan army aircraft crashed in the southwestern city of Quetta on Saturday injuring two pilots, the military said.

"Two pilots were wounded after their MFI-17 Mushshak aircraft-fixed gear trainer aircraft, crashed near the hills of Ziarat, about 40 kilometres east of Quetta on Saturday morning", a military official said.

The incident was confirmed by another military official who said the crash was a result of technical fault.

"The wounded pilots were transported to Quetta for treatment. They are in stable condition," he told AFP.

The Pakistan army uses Mushshak aircraft to train pilots in its aviation wing.

The aircraft, which is manufactured locally, is a big source of export earnings for Pakistan and sold to several Middle Eastern countries.

The exact cost of the aircraft and number sold have not been made public.

Pakistan army aircraft crashes in Quetta - Emirates 24/7


----------



## fatman17

*Attrition*
*Pakistan Army MFI-17 Mushshak*
September 20th, 2014 Following a technical failure, this aircraft crashed near the southwestern city of Quetta, Balochistan. both pilots received serious injuries and were quickly removed to a military hospital where their condition is now stable.


----------



## Areesh

Good to hear that pilots condition is stable.


----------



## Dazzler

F-7p crashed just outside Quetta, pilot unharmed, no casualties reported.

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## ejaz007

The news is that it is a training plane. Pilot is safe.


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## Imran Khan

f-7pg crashed as per ajj news


----------



## Maaaz Khan

it was a disaster for my family when we got this news as he was one of our relative, I remember that tragic moment i was in 7th standard.


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## Zarvan

PAF Falcons
PAF fighter jet crashes near Kuchlak, pilots unharmed

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter jet crashed near Kuchlak town on Wednesday, with both pilots ejecting to safety. According to PAF spokesperson, the aircraft was on a routine training flight when it crashed 45 KMs away from Quetta due to a technical fault. Fortunately, no loss to civilian life or property on ground has been reported. The spokesperson said Air headquarters has ordered an inquiry to determine the cause of accident.


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## Hurter

Imran Khan said:


> f-7pg crashed as per ajj news



F-7 should be grounded now. We cannot risk the lives of our fighter pilots now.

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## Zarvan

Junaid B said:


> F-7 should be grounded now. We cannot risk the lives of our fighter pilots now.


Until JF-17 are built more we need to use F-7 than we nee to improve economy and get a lot new Fighter Jets

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## fatman17

*PAF aircraft crashes near Quetta *

October 01, 2014 - Updated 1226 PKT 






*QUETTA: A fighter aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed due to technical fault during a routine operational training mission near Quetta on Wednesday, Geo News reported.*

According to the PAF spokesperson, the pilot of the aircraft executed successful planned ejection and remained safe in the accident.

Fortunately, no loss of life and damage to property on ground was reported as crash occurred in the barren area.

A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air headquarters to determine the cause of accident.

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## Donatello

Thank god, Pilot is safe. Must be F-7P/F-7PG, due for replacement soon anyway.


----------



## IPL5

why officials have not revealed the aircraft type ?


----------



## nomi007

its not f-7
its probably mushaq


----------



## Mujraparty

Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > ASN Aviation Safety Database results

how credible is this site..,??

*Sent from my U2 using Forum Fiend v1.2.11.*


----------



## Imran Khan

Junaid B said:


> F-7 should be grounded now. We cannot risk the lives of our fighter pilots now.


 some are from early 2000s made sir jee



nomi007 said:


> its not f-7
> its probably mushaq


 sir jee mashaq has ejection seats ?


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Junaid B said:


> F-7 should be grounded now. We cannot risk the lives of our fighter pilots now.



the older ones should be


----------



## fatman17

*Pakistan Air Force F-7PG*
October 1st, 2014 While undertaking a routine operational training mission, the aircraft was destroyed in a crash near ...

thats bad news...


----------



## fatman17

*Military*

On October 1, a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter aircraft crashed near Kuchlak around Quetta because of a technical fault. The pilot suffered minor injuries.[9]


----------



## Shariqattari

Sad news..... Allah Pilot ko ghareeq e rehmat karay... Ameen


----------



## rockstarIN

F-7PG is relatively new?


----------



## Archie

rockstarIN said:


> F-7PG is relatively new?



Yes F7PGs were inducted in year 2001, as a stop gap measure 
But now it seems that they will remain in service till 2030 due to Mis management of economy by PPP-PMLN
PAF requires a force of 450 Fighters 
So u have 250 JF17 in future supported by 100 F-16 and possibly 36 5th gen fighters
That still leaves a shortfall of 60+ Jets, which would be fullfilled by either second hand F-16s or Continued service of F7PGs


----------



## Arsalan

Maaaz Khan said:


> it was a disaster for my family when we got this news as he was one of our relative, I remember that tragic moment i was in 7th standard.


what are you referring to? who crashed when you were in 7th?? when you got what news? the news about plane that crashed yesterday? you were in 7th grade?

Kindly be a bit more specific what you are referring to.



Junaid B said:


> F-7 should be grounded now. We cannot risk the lives of our fighter pilots now.


we cant just phase out all of them at once. F-7, specially the latter PG version will keep flying for PAF for quite a few years. Some of these planes are only about 12, 13 years into there service life and this is not a lot of time for fighter jets.


----------



## Dazzler

Arsalan said:


> what are you referring to? who crashed when you were in 7th?? when you got what news? the news about plane that crashed yesterday? you were in 7th grade?
> 
> Kindly be a bit more specific what you are referring to.
> 
> 
> we cant just phase out all of them at once. F-7, specially the latter PG version will keep flying for PAF for quite a few years. Some of these planes are only about 12, 13 years into there service life and this is not a lot of time for fighter jets.




on the contrary, PGs have a very good flight safety record, just behind jf-17 and f-16s


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Dazzler said:


> on the contrary, PGs have a very good flight safety record, just behind jf-17 and f-16s



and that too with many hours under their belt....this incident is pretty unfortunate though given that its a newer variant. The last major induction took place early 2000s (i want to say 2003, but not sure)


----------



## fatman17

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and that too with many hours under their belt....this incident is pretty unfortunate though given that its a newer variant. The last major induction took place early 2000s (i want to say 2003, but not sure)


 
Pakistan ordered 57 *F-7PG*s in early 2000 so you are not off the mark.

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## farhan_9909

Training aircraft down after take off on the runway of Islamabad airport


----------



## fatman17

farhan_9909 said:


> Training aircraft down after take off on the runway of Islamabad airport


 
what type. do you mean chaklala?


----------



## farhan_9909

fatman17 said:


> what type. do you mean chaklala?



cessna,3 injured,one of the in critical condition


----------



## fatman17

farhan_9909 said:


> cessna,3 injured,one of the in critical condition


 
so civilian aircraft not military?


----------



## farhan_9909

fatman17 said:


> so civilian aircraft not military?



Yes


----------



## Reichmarshal

farhan_9909 said:


> Training aircraft down after take off on the runway of Islamabad airport



It was a Cessna 172, with two trainee pilots n a instructor on board.
The reason for the crash was jet wash, as it was taking off behind a wide body passenger airliner n the small size of the 172 could not take the turblance.

One of the pilots is seriously injured, plz pray for him.


----------



## SQ8

Reichmarshal said:


> It was a Cessna 172, with two trainee pilots n a instructor on board.
> The reason for the crash was jet wash, as it was taking off behind a wide body passenger airliner n the small size of the 172 could not take the turblance.
> 
> One of the pilots is seriously injured, plz pray for him.



The controller does have a play in this as they are responsible for ensuring ample spacing between flights.

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## Reichmarshal

Oscar said:


> The controller does have a play in this as they are responsible for ensuring ample spacing between flights.



Alas! If only we had the benefit of retrospect in our daily lives in form of premonitions.......
Chaklala AP is one busy AP from a training prospective as their r two flying clubs along with some three PAF sqds opp from the same AP/one runway n the same air space.
U can can see constantly c130, CN235, Il 76, G IV, citation, Cessnas n other small training ac, in circuit, doing touch n gos. The pattern on most days is full.

In such congested air space, where controller r pressed for time, things like these happen


----------



## SQ8

Reichmarshal said:


> Alas! If only we had the benefit of retrospect in our daily lives in form of premonitions.......
> Chaklala AP is one busy AP from a training prospective as their r two flying clubs along with some three PAF sqds opp from the same AP/one runway n the same air space.
> U can can see constantly c130, CN235, Il 76, G IV, citation, Cessnas n other small training ac, in circuit, doing touch n gos. The pattern on most days is full.
> 
> In such congested air space, where controller r pressed for time, things like these happen



Regardless, even the busiest airports in the world(where we have an idea of Jet wash instilled onto ATC).. separation is kept between larger and smaller aircraft. The pilot too should have kept this idea in mind. At least 2 minutes of separation is needed to safely avoid Jetwash.

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## Najam Khan

Oscar said:


> The controller does have a play in this as they are responsible for ensuring ample spacing between flights.



Exactly.
One more thing is that in Chaklala controller sits way far from tarmac/flight lines. He has no visual, radios are everything there. It could be both pilot's fault and/Or miscommunication b/w control tower and pilot(s).

I recall two C-130's accident at Chaklala in 1990s, the controller lady played her role in the crash too. It was pilot error/by-passing SOPs/flight safety and following wrong procedures.


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Regardless, even the busiest airports in the world(where we have an idea of Jet wash instilled onto ATC).. separation is kept between larger and smaller aircraft. The pilot too should have kept this idea in mind. At least 2 minutes of separation is needed to safely avoid Jetwash.



Agree, since the pilot himself was on the runway, he should have known what aircraft departed for him for adequate distance between the two planes. Isb isn't exactly a big airport, doesn't even have proper taxiways/parallel runways. They were luck that the plane crashed from a small height and survived. Kudos to the Cessna's structure.

Better build than your average jap crap.


----------



## SQ8

*PAF Mirage goes down near Gadap*

KARACHI: A small aircraft is reported to have crashed in Gadap town in the metropolis Friday, police said.

According to SSP Malir Rao Anwar, residents of Gadap town have informed him that they witnessed the crash and the fire that erupted following the incident.

Quoting the residents, the police official said that the crash took place at a distance of 10 to 15 kilometers from toll plaza. -Samaa

Small aircraft reportedly crashes in Karachi


----------



## Sulman Badshah

KARACHI: A fighter aircraft has reportedly crashed in Gadap Town of the metropolis Friday, Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) official said.

The CAA sources said Mirage aircraft took off from Masroor Airbase.

According to SSP Malir Rao Anwar, residents of Gadap town have also informed him that they witnessed the crash and the fire that erupted following the incident.

Quoting the residents, the police official said that the crash took place at a distance of 10 to 15 kilometers from toll plaza. -Samaa


----------



## flameboard

And the pilot?


----------



## truthseeker2010

flameboard said:


> And the pilot?



it was a twin seat trainer, and reportedly both pilots are injured, one of them sqn leader tanveer was at the stick during crash.


----------



## truthseeker2010

Reichmarshal said:


> Alas! If only we had the benefit of retrospect in our daily lives in form of premonitions.......
> Chaklala AP is one busy AP from a training prospective as their r two flying clubs along with some three PAF sqds opp from the same AP/one runway n the same air space.
> U can can see constantly c130, CN235, Il 76, G IV, citation, Cessnas n other small training ac, in circuit, doing touch n gos. The pattern on most days is full.
> 
> In such congested air space, where controller r pressed for time, things like these happen



why not use dhamial for small aircraft like cessna?

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## Green Arrow

Good that pilots are safe


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## khail007

Sqd. Ldr. Tanvir Ahmed martyred in Mirage crash near Gadap Karachi. Inna Lillah Wa Innah Alaihay Rajaeoon


----------



## Rahil khan

*KARACHI: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pilot was killed after his Mirage aircraft crashed on the outskirts of Karachi on Friday evening during a routine night training mission.*

The PAF Mirage aircraft crashed 48 kilometers outside Karachi near Gadap Town. There was no loss of civilian life or damage to property on the ground.

The PAF, while identifying the pilot as Squadron Leader Tanvir Ahmed, added that an inquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the crash.

Following the incident, the area was surrounded by law enforcement agencies as well as officials and personnel of the PAF. Fire tenders and ambulances were also immediately dispatched to the spot since the plane had exploded and caught fire soon after the crash. Helicopters were also called in to participate in the rescue and relief operation.

The incident took place in a mountainous area known as Jenai close to the Balochistan border. The incident took place away from the residential and commercial areas, hence minimising damage to civilians.

This is the third such incident in recent months.

Earlier on October 1, a PAF fighter aircraft crashed near Kuchlak, a suburb of Quetta due to a technical fault. The pilot sustained minor injuries as the aircraft crashed in an open area. No loss of life was reported.

On September 20, two pilots were wounded after their MFI-17 Mushshak aircraft—fixed gear trainer aircraft, crashed near the hills of Ziarat, about 40-kilometres off Khalid Airbase
http://tribune.com.pk/story/794955/paf-aircraft-crashes-in-karachi/


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## Abu Zolfiqar

IT IS TIME TO MOTHBALL THOSE OLDER MIRAGES. This is not acceptable.


RIP to the pilot, bless his soul


----------



## Rahil khan

Squadron Leader Tanvir Ahmed has embraced Shahadah. إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ Man i can't take such news any more....These Mirages will continue to fall outa our skies along with our price less pilots...!!! We need to replace these old cold war era's flying junks God Dam it....!!!

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## duhastmish

God bless the pilots, wish them quick recovery.

People don't judge aircraft or pilot without full news. I am sure these people know well when retire the jets and pilots must have tried their best to save it from crash.


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## Rahil khan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> IT IS TIME TO MOTHBALL THOSE OLDER MIRAGES. This is not acceptable.
> 
> 
> RIP to the pilot, bless his soul



Imagine these airframes flying for another 6 or 7 years, with ten or more crashing with our pilots....how long we can take such news...!!!


----------



## xTra

duhastmish said:


> God bless the pilots, wish them quick recovery.
> 
> People don't judge aircraft or pilot without full news. I am sure these people know well when retire the jets and pilots must have tried their best to save it from crash.



RIP,

But you know AMC is very costly affair in our part of world.


----------



## duhastmish

xTra said:


> RIP,
> 
> But you know AMC is very costly affair in our part of world.


Yes dear but paf is one of the most patriotic and least corrupt organisation. These people due to lack of funds have such every ounce of life from these jets. We don't know because there is no detail but i think Pakistan mirage are not in such a mess to be phased out.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Rahil khan said:


> Imagine these airframes flying for another 6 or 7 years, with ten or more crashing with our pilots....how long we can take such news...!!!



former Air Marshal R. Suleman is on record stating that they need to be retired.....lives have been lost

its a formidable aircraft that has served the nation with pride.....I grew up seeing these aircrafts in action. Their service life is finished. Most are old and have reached the end of their utility. 

the fleet should be grounded...pilot life is WAY too precious

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## Donatello

If it was from Masroor, it was most probably a ROSE Mirage.....night strike eagles? Since it was on a night mission?

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## A.Rafay

RIP to the pilot. Very sad incident.


----------



## Basel

Very Sad news if true. 

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ 

PAF now have to find quick solution to replace aging Mirages fast as they are crashing regularly and putting precious pilots life in danger, if PAF can get used F-16s or even M2K9s in relatively low price then they should buy them at least they will be much safer to fly and will add more capability then these Mirages.


----------



## Sine Nomine

25-5-2015
PESHAWAR: The two pilots of a twin-seater training fighter jet survived a crashed in the country s northwest on Wednesday, officials said.





Pakistan Air Force reports that a PAF aircraft, while on a routine operational training mission, crashed in Shah Mansoor town near Swabi. Both pilots survived but one got injured. Rescue teams have shifted the injured to Bacha Khan Medical Complex, Swabi, according to authorities.
According to reports Aircraft was k-8 Karakoram from *Pakistan Air Force Academy (PAFA) Risalpur*,it is first crash of k-8 in PAF service since introduction of type in 1995 .




*Karakorum-8*
@Horus @Windjammer @syedali73

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## maxpayne

قناص said:


> 25-5-2015
> PESHAWAR: The two pilots of a twin-seater training fighter jet survived a crashed in the country s northwest on Wednesday, officials said. Pakistan Air Force reports that a PAF aircraft, while on a routine operational training mission, crashed in Shah Mansoor town near Sawabi. However, the pilot and co-pilot were not hurt in the aeronautical mishap . More details are .........
> @Horus @Windjammer @syedali73


Thanks to Allah that pilots are safe. Which trainer is it btw?

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## furqanusafzai

Thanks God they are safe.
There was a plane crash some years back in Swabi. They have installed a model T-37 in his memory here in our Uni.He minor escaped an academic department. People say he maneuvered his plane saving many lives.


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## انگریز

Raining mirages again?
Cloudy with a chance of meat balls ...... Or cloudy with a chance of PAF Mirage


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## Kurlang




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## Windjammer

انگریز said:


> Raining mirages again?
> Cloudy with a chance of meat balls ...... Or cloudy with a chance of PAF Mirage


No, it wasn't a mirage but a K-8 training aircraft.
If I'm not wrong, this is the first crash of the type in over 20 years of service.

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## Sage

A PAF T-37 jet crashed in Shahmansoor, District Swabi, Kyber Pukhtunkhwa province ...Both pilots survived ...however one of them got his leg broken ...As I am writing this....A PAF Alouette Chopper is hovering above the crash site ...Both pilots were evacuated earlier ! I will upload the video later ...


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## Devil Soul

Pilots ejected that's great


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## Sage

@Oscar Are you gonna lock this one up as well  ?


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## Rahil khan

Thank God pilots are safe...!! Thanks Allah.

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## Ankit Kumar 001

Hi
Pakistan presently has the means and resources both to replace these tweets. Why not increase the production rate of K8 karakorams. 
And God willing both of them will be flying soon.
Cheers
Thanks

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## Windjammer

Dude, it wasn't a T-37 but a K-8.
Probably first crash of the type in over 20 years of service,
There's already a thread on it, besides there's a dedicated thread for all PAF crashes.
Anyways, thank God, the pilots are safe.

*25-5-2015 PAF Trainer Crashes in Swabi-KPK

Notify PAF Aircraft Crashes*

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## fatman17

Today a PAF fighter or trainer aircraft has crashed. The pilot has survived but injured. Pilot's name is ghous who is a IP. Any further news?


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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force pilots survive fatal crash

National
PESHAWAR:

Two pilots on a twin-seater training fighter jet survived a deadly crash in the northwest of Pakistan on Monday morning (today), according to officials.

“Pakistan Air Force reports that a PAF aircraft, while on a routine operational training mission, crashed in Shah Mansoor town near Swabi. Fortunately, the pilot and co-pilot were not hurt in the aeronautical mishap” sources told a private media outlet.

Rescue teams have shifted the injured to Bacha Khan Medical Complex, Swabi, according to authorities.

Pakistan Today


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## fatman17

Probably T37


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## fatman17

Crash site


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> Probably T37



It was a K-8 .
Reportedly first crash of the type in over 20 years of flying with the Academy.


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> It was a K-8 .
> Reportedly first crash of the type in over 20 years of flying with the Academy.



Thanks the IP was a cousin and part of sherdils who performed in 23rd March air show. Thank god he is safe and survived

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## JonAsad

Good that the pilot is safe- Alhamdolillah


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## TheNoob

Sage said:


> @Oscar Are you gonna lock this one up as well  ?



I see your butthurt because he locked the thread due to the fact that the video you posted there had 2 different videos squeezed into one.

You need to be more smarter to understand how the videos and propaganda works....


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## In arduis fidelis

TV channels are reporting it was a bird strike


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## boke

飞行员没事就好，T-37已经有六十岁高龄了，它已经不适合继续再承载也承载不了现代战机飞行员的培训任务了，已经考虑用新型教练机取代它，这是对国家利益负责，更是对飞行员的生命负责！


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## niaz

fatman17 said:


> Thanks the IP was a cousin and part of sherdils who performed in 23rd March air show. Thank god he is safe and survived



Aircraft is just a piece of metal and no matter what accidents do and will happen..Pilots are far more important than the aircraft and it is good to know that bot the pilots are safe

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## Sage

TheNoob said:


> I see your butthurt because he locked the thread due to the fact that the video you posted there had 2 different videos squeezed into one.
> 
> You need to be more smarter to understand how the videos and propaganda works....


My comment was for Oscar ...Are you his secretary or spoke person ?



Rafay Jamil said:


> TV channels are reporting it was a bird strike


I watched the video .....!


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## fatman17

Two Crew Eject Safely Before Pakistan Air Force K-8 Crash

Posted on 25 May, 2015


One of the PAF’s K-8s was written-off in a crash today in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province. AFD-Alan Warnes

A PAKISTAN Air Force Hongdu K-8P Karakoram jet trainer has crashed in northwestern Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province during a routine training mission. Both pilots ejected safely. The accident occurred today, May 25, in an open field near Zaida villiage in the Swabi district.

The aircraft was destroyed by a post-crash fire, but there were no reports of injuries or damage to property on the ground, according the PAF spokesperson Air Commodore S M Ali. He said a Board of Inquiry will be convened to determine the cause of the accident. AFD-Dave Allport


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## nomi007




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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Two Crew Eject Safely Before Pakistan Air Force K-8 Crash
> 
> Posted on 25 May, 2015
> 
> 
> One of the PAF’s K-8s was written-off in a crash today in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province. AFD-Alan Warnes
> 
> A PAKISTAN Air Force Hongdu K-8P Karakoram jet trainer has crashed in northwestern Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province during a routine training mission. Both pilots ejected safely. The accident occurred today, May 25, in an open field near Zaida villiage in the Swabi district.
> 
> The aircraft was destroyed by a post-crash fire, but there were no reports of injuries or damage to property on the ground, according the PAF spokesperson Air Commodore S M Ali. He said a Board of Inquiry will be convened to determine the cause of the accident. AFD-Dave Allport



The IPs full name and rank is S/ L Ghous Majeed Almakky


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## Jango

*A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) helicopter, which was carrying flood reliefs goods, was forced to make an emergency landing in Chitral after developing a technical fault, Express Newsreported.*

Reports said PAF’s MI-17 helicopter crash-landed in the Mastuj area of Chitral after it is said to have been partially damaged while carrying out flood relief activities in the region.

Read: Rescue operation: Army chief visits flood-hit DG Khan

Pakistan’s armed forces are busy carrying out relief operations across the country, including Chitral, as floods continue to ravage various parts of Pakistan.

Earlier on Wednesday, ISPR stated that Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif visited flood affected areas of Chitral where he was had been given a detailed briefing by local military commanders on the rescue and relief efforts by Pakistan Army, FWO and FC.

General Raheel directed FWO to keep the communication infrastructure of Chitral open and also lauded the efforts of FWO, army troops and army aviation in rescue operations.

On Tuesday, the army chief visited flood-hit areas of Layyah in Dera Ghazi Khan Division to review the on-going rescue and flood relief operations.

Read: Assistance plan: NDMA shores up relief efforts in Chitral

According to the ISPR, the army chief expressed his deepest regret over the loss of life and property and assured the flood victims that the military would stand by them till their complete rehabilitation.

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## Donatello

Reports on Dawn.com indicating a helicopter has crashed in Mansehra, killing 9....


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## Hell hound

inna lillahi wa inallah rajioon
rip soldiers and anyone else who was involve in crash


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## Caprxl

No one died I think , it was a crash land and only few injuries until I saw news. 
Don't know about updates


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## Jango

Now news coming in of a crash in Mansehra or sirikot, different news coming in.

And some saying it's KPK Govt, some saying Army Aviation.

I'll try and get more on this in a while.


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## Caprxl

Probably 8 people got Martyred


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## Ankit Kumar 001

RIP to Men in Uniform who place their poor countrymen above themselves.


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## alibaz

Reports are that helicopter caught fire during flight. Crashed near Lassan Nawab, district Mansehra. Reports suggest All on board embraced shahada.
انا اللہ و انا الیہ راجعون


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## niaz

Unfortunately rotary wing aircraft are still not as reliable as the fixed wing. Still any loss of life is always a great tragedy.

May Allah bless souls of the departed and grant forbearance to their relations for the loss of their loved ones.


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## Basel

Why Mi-17s crashing frequently? Their safety record is getting poor. Even in Pakistan other helicopters are flying much safer.


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## Devil Soul

inna lillahi wa inallah rajioonrajioon


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## MastanKhan

Major Muzammil---does anyone know his full name and age----? Is he the son of Maj. Tajammul Hussein R?


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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force Mi-17



Date: Nationality: Pakistan Air ForceType: Serial No.: 

This Mi-17 is reported to have hit a tree during take-off in the Mastuj area of the flood-hit Chitral district, while taking part in flood relief operations, but was believed not to have been seriously damaged when it subsequently made an emergency landing. It had been rescuing 13 people and also evacuating a dead body, but no serious injuries were reported.

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## Zarvan

#Breaking: Pakistan Air Force jet crashes in Mastung, details coming up shortly on JAAG TV, stay tuned

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> #Breaking: Pakistan Air Force jet crashes in Mastung, details coming up shortly on JAAG TV, stay tuned



thanks to ALLAH that pilot is safe

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## Sine Nomine

Shukar Allah, Aviator is safe,rest we make machines.

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## fatman17

F7PG is reportedly crashed. Do they operate from Samungli

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## Roybot

Another Mirage? Or F7?


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## Burhan Wani

Pakistan Air Force F-7PG plane crashed in Mastung, official sources said. Local administration said pilot successfully ejected and safe. PAF officials reached the spot shortly after the incident . The PAF said that the plane was on training mission and investigation are under progress.
@Windjammer @Side-Winder @Horus @WAJsal @Shamain @fakhre mirpur @Muhammad Omar @Akheilos @Umair Nawaz @DESERT FIGHTER @Bratva @Imran Khan @airbus 




پاک فضائیہ کا طیارہ آگ لگنے سے گر کر

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## Kompromat

Good to know that Pilots is alive.

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## LonE_WolF

glad to hear that pilot is safe

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## Windjammer

The F-7 has served PAF well for two decades and in due course would be replaced by the JF-17.
The main and irreplaceable assets are the pilots.

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## graphican

We have hope, F-7 PG will be replaced someday soon InShaAllah. JF-17 Program is on track.


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## I S I

F7PG,Mirage are flying coffins. Better retire them asap. Pilots life are more precious than a metal junk.
Good to know Pilot is safe.


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## rockstarIN

Good that Pilot is safe!

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## lastofthepatriots

Alhamdulilah

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## DANGER-ZONE

I S I said:


> F7PG,Mirage are flying coffins. Better retire them asap. Pilots life are more precious than a metal junk.
> Good to know Pilot is safe.



F-7pg were inducted in 2002, they are relatively new as compared to the Mirages & original F-7ps which are serving since 80s. F-7pg has long life to serve the PAF and Its crash rate is very low as compared to F-7p.
Only 2 or 3 a/c are crashed till date.

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## Windjammer

lastofthepatriots said:


> Alhamdulilah



Indeed, it's a relief that F/L Yasir Akram ejected safely without any injury.

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## alibaz

AlhamdoLillah pilot is safe. Agreed with @DANGER-ZONE that these are relatively newer than F-Ps.

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## I S I

DANGER-ZONE said:


> F-7pg were inducted in 2002, they are relatively new as compared to the Mirages & original F-7ps which are serving since 80s. F-7pg has long life to serve the PAF and Its crash rate is very low as compared to F-7p.
> Only 2 or 3 a/c are crashed till date.


TIL
Thanks


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## aliyusuf

I S I said:


> F7PG,Mirage are flying coffins. Better retire them asap. Pilots life are more precious than a metal junk.
> Good to know Pilot is safe.



The F-7PGs are J-7s with modified delta wings that gives them enhanced maneuverability. Inducted in 2002. The more widely accepted estimates suggest that we acquired 48 F-7PGs and 9 FT-7PG. Out of which we have lost 6 planes ... 4 or 5 F-7PGs and 1 or 2 FT-7PG. They are being operated from SQDs 17,20,23. Where SQDs 17(Tigers) and 23(Talons) operate out of Samungli airbase. SQD 20 (Cheetahs) operate out of Rafiqui.

So in 13 years losing 6 planes hardly qualifies them as flying coffins ... especially when 2 of those were lost in mid air collision in a single unfortunate incident in which (apparently) the air crafts did not malfunction.

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## Devil Soul

*PAF training aircraft crashes near Mastung*

Islamabad
26 MINS AGO BY INP





An F-7 training aircraft of the Pakistan Airforce (PAF) on Wednesday crashed near Mastung area of Balochistan province, pilot remained unhurt.

According to PAF spokesperson, the F-7 aircraft was on regular training flight when it crashed and no loss of life took place because of the accident, as the pilot was able to safely evacuate from the aircraft, which was destroyed from the crash.

The PAF spokesman said that an inquiry board has been formed to find out the reasons for the accident.
----
_*AlHumduillah, on the news of pilot ejected safely.....*_


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## Pindi Boy

thank GOd pilot is safe


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## nomi007

yr waise jitnay be incident hote hai

*kisi ki be incident ki report nai ati*

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## Zaneesh852

Windjammer said:


> The F-7 has served PAF well for two decades and in due course would be replaced by the JF-17.
> The main and irreplaceable assets are the pilots.


This is not Mirage or F-7P but the newer F-7PG.


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## Preacher

Hopefully PAF will replace the F7s and Mirages with JF-17s according to Air Marshall (R) Mirza Zafar on the last
Mirage Trainer jet crash in March.

_
"Eventually *Mirages would be retired and replaced by JF17s*. PAF ac are maintained according to highest practises of maintenance. I believe last November mirage accident was mechanical problem and pilots wanted to save the aircraft at all costs against clear cut instructions to eject at 2000 AGL. It is generally the urge to save ac that leads to fatal accidents. There are many glorious examples where to avoid populated area pilot delayed ejection and got killed. This Mirage accident it is too early to comment. It could be human factor or weather or mechanical malfunction. Best is to wait for Inquiry Report. Our senior commanders lead from the front and hence fly a lot."

P.S: this is an old statement about Mirage Trainer jet crash._

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## shah1398

ALHUMDULILLAH Pilot is safe and sound. MODP and PAC should operate Thunder program on optimum level as to replace all F-7Ps, F-7PGs and Non Rose Mirages at earliest.


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## DMP

Preacher said:


> Hopefully PAF will replace the F7s and Mirages with JF-17s according to Air Marshall (R) Mirza Zafar on the last
> Mirage Trainer jet crash in March.
> 
> _
> "Eventually *Mirages would be retired and replaced by JF17s*. PAF ac are maintained according to highest practises of maintenance. I believe last November mirage accident was mechanical problem and pilots wanted to save the aircraft at all costs against clear cut instructions to eject at 2000 AGL. It is generally the urge to save ac that leads to fatal accidents. There are many glorious examples where to avoid populated area pilot delayed ejection and got killed. This Mirage accident it is too early to comment. It could be human factor or weather or mechanical malfunction. Best is to wait for Inquiry Report. Our senior commanders lead from the front and hence fly a lot."
> 
> P.S: this is an old statement about Mirage Trainer jet crash._


But this jet which crashed was F-7PG. f-7P will be retired but F-7PG will remain in service for some more time



shah1398 said:


> ALHUMDULILLAH Pilot is safe and sound. MODP and PAC should operate Thunder program on optimum level as to replace all F-7Ps, F-7PGs and Non Rose Mirages at earliest.


F-7P will be replaced soon but not F-7PG.


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## Sipahi

F7 -PG have severed more then their capability, PAC have to deliver fast so our brilliant fighter pilots can have better machines.


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## shah1398

DMP said:


> F-7P will be replaced soon but not F-7PG.



I understand that PGs are newer than F-7Ps but F-7PGs were bought to increase the numbers rather we were forced to go for it as didnt have any other option at that time. I suppose when we are thru with replacement of older Mirages and F-7s then may be in max 5 years from now F-7PGs should have been replaced by Thunder.We can always find a good customers for them to sell to.Like Nigeria, Sudan, Sri Lanka or even Bangladesh can be potential buyers of these.

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## Muhammad Omar

Shukar Alhamdulillah the pilot is safe.. PAF need to replace F-7's ASAP and even Mirages....


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## DMP

shah1398 said:


> I understand that PGs are newer than F-Ps but F-7PGs were bought to increase the numbers rather we were forced to go for it as didnt have any other option. I suppose when we are thru with replacement of older Mirages and F-7s then may be in max 5 years from now F-7PGs should have been replaced by Thunder.We can always find a good customers for them to sell to.Like Nigeria, Sudan, Sri Lanka or even Bangladesh can be potential buyers of these.


they will serve longer than 5 years. After replacing mirages F-7Ps we don't have potential to quickly retire PG too it will take time. F-7 PG has a long life to go.


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## silent poison

Mig -21 and its copies should say goodbye to South Asian Skies as soon as possible .


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## Preacher

@Horus @Windjammer 
I just asked Air Commodore ( R) Kaiser Tufail about the crash here is the conversation. :

*Respected Sir, I have a question about F7 PG crash today. if it comes out to be a Mechanical Malfunction of the Aircraft after the investigations don't you think we must replace these F7s and Mirages with JF-17s soon.
*

*When was the inquiry done?
*

*If we lose a JF-17 or an F-16, should we replace them with something new?
*

*The F-7PG is newer than the F-16, by the way.

Thank you sir I highly trust our Air force management. But so many people saying that the Mirages and F-7 etc are now flying confines.
*

*Only ill-informed people on defense forums are saying that.
*

*You can't make a judgement within a few hours of a crash. An inquiry takes several weeks, sometimes months. The PAF knows what remedial action to take.
*

*Crashes are part if the game.
*

*Flying is risky business. Machines are not perfect; they fail. So do humans.
*
_____________________________________________________________________________
*
Me : Nicely explained sir smile emoticon 
Thank you for your time.*

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## shah1398

DMP said:


> they will serve longer than 5 years. After replacing mirages F-7Ps we don't have potential to quickly retire PG too it will take time. F-7 PG has a long life to go.



Inventory of PAF other than PGs in next 5 years can be like Rose Mirages, F-16s and Thunders and these all are far superior to PGs with generation gaps in between. So PGs might lose their utility except to show a blip on radar, air policing western borders (which they are doing now too) or used in Army Exercises. PGs wud find it difficult to blend it just like A-5s and F-6s and wud lose active role at that time to superior aircraft at that time. So we have to concentrate on that area and those circumstances.

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## DMP

Muhammad Omar said:


> Shukar Alhamdulillah the pilot is safe.. PAF need to replace F-7's ASAP and even Mirages....





shah1398 said:


> Inventory of PAF other than PGs in next 5 years can be like Rose Mirages, F-16s and Thunders and these all are far superior to PGs with generation gaps in between. So PGs might lose their utility except to show a blip on radar, air policing western borders (which they are doing now too) or used in Army Exercises. PGs wud find it difficult to blend it just like A-5s and F-6s and wud lose active role at that time to superior aircraft at that time. So we have to concentrate on that area and those circumstances.


In next 5 years other than thunders there will b a new aircraft showing off soon may b J-10 but not sure. F-7PG will not lose their utility, Still China uses it's j-7. If we are gona finish off F-7 fleet completely what's gonna do the interception job for us, It is easy to say but this isn't gona happen that soon. Today PAF is in need of jet's, as a member said earlier in 13 years we only lost 6-7 of them 2 in a air collision this is not a machine error so, left with 4-5 crashes,..!! look at the rate at which mirages are crashing are the replaced till yet ?????? PAF needs jets today , jet's which are flying well and don't have high crash ratio will not b retired that soon as PAF is aiming to increase number of jet's in its fleet, In the last mirage crash the most newest mirage of PAF crashed our F-16s crashed shall we retire our F-16's too ??? i mean they are older than F-7PPG they also crashed shall we retire them too ???? what will be left if we retire F-7PG too just F-17 and thunder. PAF is not gona retire PG in 5 years it will serve longer


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## salman77

Allah ka shukar hai that pilot is safe.


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## Archie

Its all about the number of Hours which the Airframe has clocked, rather than the Number of years.

Due to the Iraq and Afghan Wars, USAF was forced to retire dozens of fighters after 20-25 years, mainly because they had completed their technical life of 8000-10000 Hrs

The F7PG has an airframe life of 2500 Hrs, If the fighter is flown at normal rate, then it should remain useful for 20 years, As per Indian Air-force Records, majority of Mig21 crashes have happened after the airframe has completed its technical life of 2500 hours, infact average age of a Mig21 lost to crash was 2700 hours and 26 years

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## gau8av

Preacher said:


> @Horus @Windjammer
> I just asked Air Commodore ( R) Kaiser Tufail about the crash here is the conversation. :
> 
> *Respected Sir, I have a question about F7 PG crash today. if it comes out to be a Mechanical Malfunction of the Aircraft after the investigations don't you think we must replace these F7s and Mirages with JF-17s soon.
> *
> 
> *When was the inquiry done?
> *
> 
> *If we lose a JF-17 or an F-16, should we replace them with something new?
> *
> 
> *The F-7PG is newer than the F-16, by the way.
> 
> Thank you sir I highly trust our Air force management. But so many people saying that the Mirages and F-7 etc are now flying confines.
> *
> 
> *Only ill-informed people on defense forums are saying that.
> *
> 
> *You can't make a judgement within a few hours of a crash. An inquiry takes several weeks, sometimes months. The PAF knows what remedial action to take.
> *
> 
> *Crashes are part if the game.
> *
> 
> *Flying is risky business. Machines are not perfect; they fail. So do humans.
> *
> _____________________________________________________________________________
> *
> Me : Nicely explained sir smile emoticon
> Thank you for your time.*


and are you just a civilian or in the PAF yourself ?


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## aliyusuf

F-7PG is way more maneuverable than F-7P and all the Mirages. Its 25.2 deg/sec max. instantaneous and 16 deg/sec max. sustained turn rates are quite decent if you consider that F-16s 26+ deg/sec max. instantaneous and 18+ deg/sec max. sustained turn rates. Also it houses a different and more advanced radar Grifo-7MG compared to the F-7Ps Grifo-7mk.II radar that has a track while search range of 55km for 5m2 targets. Its radar performance is close to that of the Grifo-M3 radar of the ROSE-I Mirage. Till the induction of the JF-17 Thunder ... the PGs were considered the 2nd most potent platform in the PAF.

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Thank God the Pilot is safe.


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## Shamain

Phew!!

@Irfan Baloch


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## AtiF Malang

Alhamdulillah F/L is safe .


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## Preacher

gau8av said:


> and are you just a civilian or in the PAF yourself ?



Civilian


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## Beethoven

The worrying point was the crash site, Mastung which falls in the vicinity of Quetta is still infested with BLA rats. The good thing is we got our hands on the flight lieutenant before any potential damage

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## gau8av

Preacher said:


> Civilian


 and you guys can just shoot off e-mails with smileys to service chiefs and they respond ? 

wow


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## Preacher

gau8av said:


> and you guys can just shoot off e-mails with smileys to service chiefs and they respond ?
> 
> wow



he is my uncle.

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## gau8av

Preacher said:


> he is my uncle.


aah, that explains it.


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## Preacher

gau8av said:


> aah, that explains it.



Asking such question in PDF doesn't makes sense at all


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## Muhammad Omar

DMP said:


> In next 5 years other than thunders there will b a new aircraft showing off soon may b J-10 but not sure. F-7PG will not lose their utility, Still China uses it's j-7. If we are gona finish off F-7 fleet completely what's gonna do the interception job for us, It is easy to say but this isn't gona happen that soon. Today PAF is in need of jet's, as a member said earlier in 13 years we only lost 6-7 of them 2 in a air collision this is not a machine error so, left with 4-5 crashes,..!! look at the rate at which mirages are crashing are the replaced till yet ?????? PAF needs jets today , jet's which are flying well and don't have high crash ratio will not b retired that soon as PAF is aiming to increase number of jet's in its fleet, In the last mirage crash the most newest mirage of PAF crashed our F-16s crashed shall we retire our F-16's too ??? i mean they are older than F-7PPG they also crashed shall we retire them too ???? what will be left if we retire F-7PG too just F-17 and thunder. PAF is not gona retire PG in 5 years it will serve longer



i know it'll be J-10b for sure


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## TOPGUN

Thank GOD pilot is safe ... machine can be replaced .


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## DMP

Muhammad Omar said:


> i know it'll be J-10b for sure


yeah it will b J-10b but in next 5 years there could b a slight chance of getting a trainer if we are left with some money after buying J-10b


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## aliyusuf

@DMP @Muhammad Omar 

Gentlemen, we can only speculate at this point. What makes you so sure?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

F-7 trainer

no loss of life

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## DMP

aliyusuf said:


> @DMP @Muhammad Omar
> 
> Gentlemen, we can only speculate at this point. What makes you so sure?


but by observing the conditions we can predict whats gonna happen as PAF is showing interest in Yak-130, KAIs machine and L-15 so this indicates that a advance trainer is coming soon as if we are gonna retire mirages and f-7s and after some time F-7PGs too so what we are left with ?????? F-16 and Jf-17 so what after K-8p direct thunder then F-16 who's gonna do the interception job ?????? a trainer will which could be converted to light attack jet will fill the gap ....!!!!!!!!! steps will gonna b something like this you go to Mushshak then probably super mushshak then to t-37 then K-8 in fighter conventional after K-8P the more advanced trainer which might come soon then on thunder and J-10b or F-16 after it.


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## Muhammad Omar

aliyusuf said:


> @DMP @Muhammad Omar
> 
> Gentlemen, we can only speculate at this point. What makes you so sure?



our 40 F-16 are 3 decades old except for few... F-7 are falling from the sky and needs to be retire and Mirage more then 4 decade old what do we have in our inventory? JF-17 and few F-16? J-31 is not coming till decade and what do you think Pakistan will buy J-31 in 100's of numbers? i don't think so there will be only 80 J-31 and 150-200 JF-17 our f-16 need to be replaced after a few years what will we have to counter India? 


India have 

Su-30 MKI
Mirage 2000
MiG 29
Jaguar
MiG-27
Harpy
Tejas
even sooner or later will get Rafales too

Pakistan have

F-16 number 99 40 are old whic we got in 1983 
JF-17.... 53
F-7 Decades old need to be retired number 146
Mirage III need to retires ASAP number 75

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## aliyusuf

DMP said:


> but by observing the conditions we can predict whats gonna happen as PAF is showing interest in Yak-130, KAIs machine and L-15 so this indicates that a advance trainer is coming soon as if we are gonna retire mirages and f-7s and after some time F-7PGs too so what we are left with ?????? F-16 and Jf-17 so what after K-8p direct thunder then F-16 who's gonna do the interception job ?????? a trainer will which could be converted to light attack jet will fill the gap ....!!!!!!!!! steps will gonna b something like this you go to Mushshak then probably super mushshak then to t-37 then K-8 in fighter conventional after K-8P the more advanced trainer which might come soon then on thunder and J-10b or F-16 after it.



That is all fine ... but how does it specifically point towards the acquisition of J-10B? The situation you are portraying can be also be handled by expanding JF-17 production infrastructure and speeding up production (if situation becomes that bad) ... while also keeping an eye out for available used F-16s. Don't get me wrong, I am all in favor of acquiring the J-10B/FC-20 ... but that would depend on a significant escalation over the PAF's top brass's current threat perceptions and the required funds availability.

All we can do for now is to speculate, hope for the best ... and wait to see how things turn out.


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## Mr.WetPants

I S I said:


> F7PG,Mirage are flying coffins. Better retire them asap. Pilots life are more precious than a metal junk.
> Good to know Pilot is safe.


Retire em?With Su-35's?



Muhammad Omar said:


> Shukar Alhamdulillah the pilot is safe.. PAF need to replace F-7's ASAP and even Mirages....


Dude, that costs ''money'' alot of it.


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## aliyusuf

Muhammad Omar said:


> our 40 F-16 are 3 decades old except for few... F-7 are falling from the sky and needs to be retire and Mirage more then 4 decade old what do we have in our inventory? JF-17 and few F-16? J-31 is not coming till decade and what do you think Pakistan will buy J-31 in 100's of numbers? i don't think so there will be only 80 J-31 and 150-200 JF-17 our f-16 need to be replaced after a few years what will we have to counter India?
> 
> 
> India have
> 
> Su-30 MKI
> Mirage 2000
> MiG 29
> Jaguar
> MiG-27
> Harpy
> Tejas
> even sooner or later will get Rafales too
> 
> Pakistan have
> 
> F-16 number 99 40 are old whic we got in 1983
> JF-17.... 53
> F-7 Decades old need to be retired number 146
> Mirage III need to retires ASAP number 75



True. But be mentally prepared that the PAF will be a smaller but more powerful air force in the coming years. The modernization via replacements thru JF-17 or used F-16s or (maybe) J-10B or whatever will not be on a 1-to-1 basis to the older Mirages and F-7s. Capability and effectiveness wise the PAF will progress by leaps and bounds but it will be through the formation of a leaner and meaner fleet. That is the only way we can progress safely and steadily in the face of consistently increasing costs of modern weapons. Perhaps when our economy doubles or even triples the current size ... then maybe we can pick and choose in required quantity.


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## Preacher

Muhammad Omar said:


> our 40 F-16 are 3 decades old except for few... F-7 are falling from the sky and needs to be retire and Mirage more then 4 decade old what do we have in our inventory? JF-17 and few F-16? J-31 is not coming till decade and what do you think Pakistan will buy J-31 in 100's of numbers? i don't think so there will be only 80 J-31 and 150-200 JF-17 our f-16 need to be replaced after a few years what will we have to counter India?
> 
> 
> India have
> 
> Su-30 MKI
> Mirage 2000
> MiG 29
> Jaguar
> MiG-27
> Harpy
> Tejas
> even sooner or later will get Rafales too
> 
> Pakistan have
> 
> F-16 number 99 40 are old whic we got in 1983
> JF-17.... 53
> F-7 Decades old need to be retired number 146
> Mirage III need to retires ASAP number 75



Force comparison is not at all linear as described by you. Our military planners are alive to latest details; numbers alone has never been our concern with them As in both '65 and 71 wars. We were outnumbered but Air power gave a good account of itself. Don't get embroiled in details, Trust the professionals to handle such matters.


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## syed_yusuf

was it FT-7 or F-7PG


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## shah1398

DMP said:


> In next 5 years other than thunders there will b a new aircraft showing off soon may b J-10 but not sure. F-7PG will not lose their utility, Still China uses it's j-7. If we are gona finish off F-7 fleet completely what's gonna do the interception job for us, It is easy to say but this isn't gona happen that soon. Today PAF is in need of jet's, as a member said earlier in 13 years we only lost 6-7 of them 2 in a air collision this is not a machine error so, left with 4-5 crashes,..!! look at the rate at which mirages are crashing are the replaced till yet ?????? PAF needs jets today , jet's which are flying well and don't have high crash ratio will not b retired that soon as PAF is aiming to increase number of jet's in its fleet, In the last mirage crash the most newest mirage of PAF crashed our F-16s crashed shall we retire our F-16's too ??? i mean they are older than F-7PPG they also crashed shall we retire them too ???? what will be left if we retire F-7PG too just F-17 and thunder. PAF is not gona retire PG in 5 years it will serve longer



Its not about crash rate but the blend of fighters and their utility that matters. Crashes only occur when extensive flying is executed and same is case with PAF as they are logging in more and more hours, participating in more and more exercises (inland and abroad). A-5s were still flying worthy with almost no crash record in previous years before their retirement but they were grounded as JF-17s were suppose to replace them. Also U r planning to induct Block II and Block III Thunders in next 5 years. So either U ll ask Govt to sanction new Squadrons or replace them with old Sqns and later is happening in our case. Say if 100 Thunders are suppose to be inducted in PAF what U propose would be modus of operandi? I my view they wud do so by retiring old Non Rose Mirages, F-7Ps and PGs. Rose Mirages are older than PGs by decades but they are suppose to stay and is evident by PAF intentions as they are going for AAR in them but not for newer PGs which are suppose to fly more as they are required for Air interceptions.Rest its upon PAF to decide as they ofcourse know better than all of us.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

media says PG but some sources say trainer?


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## Windjammer

It was an F-7PG, the news is that it was a flame out.

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## Muhammad Omar

Preacher said:


> Force comparison is not at all linear as described by you. Our military planners are alive to latest details; numbers alone has never been our concern with them As in both '65 and 71 wars. We were outnumbered but Air power gave a good account of itself. Don't get embroiled in details, Trust the professionals to handle such matters.



In 71 and 65 the jets not that advance as now they are... BVR and all others stuff it's now just about quality if you don't have it your screwed and India has Quality fighters



aliyusuf said:


> True. But be mentally prepared that the PAF will be a smaller but more powerful air force in the coming years. The modernization via replacements thru JF-17 or used F-16s or (maybe) J-10B or whatever will not be on a 1-to-1 basis to the older Mirages and F-7s. Capability and effectiveness wise the PAF will progress by leaps and bounds but it will be through the formation of a leaner and meaner fleet. That is the only way we can progress safely and steadily in the face of consistently increasing costs of modern weapons. Perhaps when our economy doubles or even triples the current size ... then maybe we can pick and choose in required quantity.



Look m fine with JF-17 Block III i know it will have much better things and quality stuff.... But 150 Jf-17 are taking place of 150 F-7's f-16 will be there till 2023-2025 we have to retire most of them at that time which jet will replace F-16? our 70+ Mirages are about to retire and in bad shape which jet is going to be there when there'll be no mirage? 

We'll have air Force like this 

50 F-16's 
150-200 JF-17 
70-80 J-31
90-100 J-10B

30-50 J-11D for Naval Role 

after having we can counter any threat by any airforce...

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## Faiez

By the time the last mirage or F-7 gets replaced by JF-17, the first JF-17 to enter service will be nearing end of service life


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## Burhan Wani

Muhammad Omar said:


> In 71 and 65 the jets not that advance as now they are... BVR and all others stuff it's now just about quality if you don't have it your screwed and India has Quality fighters
> 
> 
> 
> Look m fine with JF-17 Block III i know it will have much better things and quality stuff.... But 150 Jf-17 are taking place of 150 F-7's f-16 will be there till 2023-2025 we have to retire most of them at that time which jet will replace F-16? our 70+ Mirages are about to retire and in bad shape which jet is going to be there when there'll be no mirage?
> 
> We'll have air Force like this
> 
> 50 F-16's
> 150-200 JF-17
> 70-80 J-31
> 90-100 J-10B
> 
> 30-50 J-11D for Naval Role
> 
> after having we can counter any threat by any airforce...


Kindly Add Eurofighter Typhoon.


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## karakoram

Muhammad Omar said:


> In 71 and 65 the jets not that advance as now they are... BVR and all others stuff it's now just about quality if you don't have it your screwed and India has Quality fighters
> 
> 
> 
> Look m fine with JF-17 Block III i know it will have much better things and quality stuff.... But 150 Jf-17 are taking place of 150 F-7's f-16 will be there till 2023-2025 we have to retire most of them at that time which jet will replace F-16? our 70+ Mirages are about to retire and in bad shape which jet is going to be there when there'll be no mirage?
> 
> We'll have air Force like this
> 
> 50 F-16's
> 150-200 JF-17
> 70-80 J-31
> 90-100 J-10B
> 
> 30-50 J-11D for Naval Role
> 
> after having we can counter any threat by any airforce...


Add some 150 mig 35 and 180 f18 super hornet plus 36 f22 ho tuh maza ajaye lolzzz

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## Muhammad Omar

karakoram said:


> Add some 150 mig 35 and 180 f18 super hornet plus 36 f22 ho tuh maza ajaye lolzzz



Paise China dega ya Russia??

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## Preacher

The J-10 doesn't make sense as it will be yet another weapon system to manage, which from a logistics and training point of view can be quite a headache. Besides, even if we get them, we won't be able to buy more than 20-odd aircraft. We'd rather get 40 more JF-17s instead.


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## [Bregs]

karakoram said:


> Add some 150 mig 35 and 180 f18 super hornet plus 36 f22 ho tuh maza ajaye lolzzz



better to have 200 hospitals, 200 colleges and some highways instead

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## Preacher

[Bregs] said:


> better to have 200 hospitals, 200 colleges and some highways instead


Okay, why is not india spending on the toilets instead of getting Rafales spending on projects like Arjun and Tejas which are yet once again postponed ?
watch out your mouth kids


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## DMP

aliyusuf said:


> That is all fine ... but how does it specifically point towards the acquisition of J-10B? The situation you are portraying can be also be handled by expanding JF-17 production infrastructure and speeding up production (if situation becomes that bad) ... while also keeping an eye out for available used F-16s. Don't get me wrong, I am all in favor of acquiring the J-10B/FC-20 ... but that would depend on a significant escalation over the PAF's top brass's current threat perceptions and the required funds availability.
> 
> All we can do for now is to speculate, hope for the best ... and wait to see how things turn out.


how much you can expect to expand Jf-17 production there are round about 2000 men working in manufacturing Jf-17 on 6th sep the residents of AMF colony PAC kamra were took to a visit of Jf-17 production facility i was one of them we were well briefed. 2000 men are working i saw only 4 block 2 under final assembly that time others were in manufacturing progress 4 block 1 were there 1 was for maintenance our production limit is not that much and nor we can go on for more modifications of Jf-17 we are doing it still under loans from china block 3 will b end if it is extended there will b a block 4 nothing more than it and yu said about J-10 that was a conditional jet as you all see first deals were made then canceled there was a condition if India buys rafaels then we would buy J-10 they are buying rafaels we will acquire J-10 now quickly and after retiring mirages and F-7 we are only left with thunder and F-16 we need a third fighter .....!!


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## aliyusuf

Muhammad Omar said:


> In 71 and 65 the jets not that advance as now they are... BVR and all others stuff it's now just about quality if you don't have it your screwed and India has Quality fighters
> 
> 
> 
> Look m fine with JF-17 Block III i know it will have much better things and quality stuff.... But 150 Jf-17 are taking place of 150 F-7's f-16 will be there till 2023-2025 we have to retire most of them at that time which jet will replace F-16? our 70+ Mirages are about to retire and in bad shape which jet is going to be there when there'll be no mirage?
> 
> We'll have air Force like this
> 
> 50 F-16's
> 150-200 JF-17
> 70-80 J-31
> 90-100 J-10B
> 
> 30-50 J-11D for Naval Role
> 
> after having we can counter any threat by any airforce...



The MLU F-16s are good till 2030-35. Read up on the MLU and Air Frame / Engine refurbishment/overhauling that the Block-15 Vipers have gone thru. F-7PG and the ROSE Mirages will soldier on till 2025. The rest will be replaced by JF-17 and the process JF-17 blocks may not end at III and could go into further improved blocks. A 5th-Gen fighter will be inducted. Not in large numbers mind you because they are going to be costly to purchase and costlier to operate. In the time frame in between if funds are somehow arranged we may see another platform before we induct the 5th Gen fighter. Otherwise we may see another platform after we have inducted the 5th Gen fighter.

You see the purpose is to maintain a minimum deterrence without forcing India to raise the stakes. The game is to keep yourself armed but not so much that the adversary who has more resources is forced to up the ante. Because if we somehow manage what you are suggesting India is not going to stay put and will raise the stakes and get more. Then where will we be?

@DMP you have hit the core issue yourself by what you have posted. We barely can keep the JF-17 production process going because we are doing that (at least a part of it) on credit from China. Unless we get our economy back on track where will we get the money for J-10Bs? Let alone J-11Ds. Now that you mention it ... I think this is not happening for a while.

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## Kakaspai

[Bregs] said:


> better to have 200 hospitals, 200 colleges and some highways instead


And nothing to protect them


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## Muhammad Omar

aliyusuf said:


> The MLU F-16s are good till 2030-35. Read up on the MLU and Air Frame / Engine refurbishment/overhauling that the Block-15 Vipers have gone thru. F-7PG and the ROSE Mirages will soldier on till 2025. The rest will be replaced by JF-17 and the process JF-17 blocks may not end at III and could go into further improved blocks. A 5th-Gen fighter will be inducted. Not in large numbers mind you because they are going to be costly to purchase and costlier to operate. In the time frame in between if funds are somehow arranged we may see another platform before we induct the 5th Gen fighter. Otherwise we may see another platform after we have inducted the 5th Gen fighter.
> 
> You see the purpose is to maintain a minimum deterrence without forcing India to raise the stakes. The game is to keep yourself armed but not so much that the adversary who has more resources is forced to up the ante. Because if we somehow manage what you are suggesting India is not going to stay put and will raise the stakes and get more. Then where will we be?
> 
> @DMP you have hit the core issue yourself by what you have posted. We barely can keep the JF-17 production process going because we are doing that (at least a part of it) on credit from China. Unless we get our economy back on track where will we get the money for J-10Bs? Let alone J-11Ds. Now that you mention it ... I think this is not happening for a while.



Well m not saying that eveything is going to retire now and we should buy J-10 J-31 and others today..... i am telling about 2025....


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## [Bregs]

Kakaspai said:


> And nothing to protect them



we already have enough weapons already


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## Basel

shah1398 said:


> Inventory of PAF other than PGs in next 5 years can be like Rose Mirages, F-16s and Thunders and these all are far superior to PGs with generation gaps in between. So PGs might lose their utility except to show a blip on radar, air policing western borders (which they are doing now too) or used in Army Exercises. PGs wud find it difficult to blend it just like A-5s and F-6s and wud lose active role at that time to superior aircraft at that time. So we have to concentrate on that area and those circumstances.



with 5th generation WVR missiles coupled with HMS/HMD PGs will be very potent interceptor if employed with good tactics.

If PGs are carrying 2 R-74s or ASRAAMs and 2 IRIS-T or A-Darters with HMS/HMD one can imagine how deadly they can be in interceptor role as earlier missiles have good range (up to 50kms) and later are very deadly in close range, in well trained hands they will be very deadly for any below 5th gen fighter jet.


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## Kharral

Preacher said:


> Hopefully PAF will replace the F7s and Mirages with JF-17s according to Air Marshall (R) Mirza Zafar on the last
> Mirage Trainer jet crash in March.
> 
> _
> "Eventually *Mirages would be retired and replaced by JF17s*. PAF ac are maintained according to highest practises of maintenance. I believe last November mirage accident was mechanical problem and pilots wanted to save the aircraft at all costs against clear cut instructions to eject at 2000 AGL. It is generally the urge to save ac that leads to fatal accidents. There are many glorious examples where to avoid populated area pilot delayed ejection and got killed. This Mirage accident it is too early to comment. It could be human factor or weather or mechanical malfunction. Best is to wait for Inquiry Report. Our senior commanders lead from the front and hence fly a lot."
> 
> P.S: this is an old statement about Mirage Trainer jet crash._



Around this time last year we went over for Fatiha to a village in Mandi Bahauddin. A mirage had clashed close to the village narrowly avoiding the village. Both the pilots embraced shahdat. Incidentally a serving Air Force pilot ( sargodha base ) was also present there & the topic of that air crash came up. According to the pilot both of the pilots could have ejected safely had they chosen to but they chose not to & tried till the last moment to steer it away from the village & towards river Chenab or the Major canal closer to the village. Although they managed to steer it away from the village & saved a lot of lives on ground but fell a bit short from the close by Canal. 
I have since then wondered what went through those two heroes minds.

Thank GOD the pilot is safe in this instance.

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## Humble Analyst

[Bregs] said:


> better to have 200 hospitals, 200 colleges and some highways instead


Please if you can persuade India to stop PAKFA and Rafael we will be glad to oblige


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## Blue Marlin

as long as if the pliot is safe then im not bothered. sure a plane is destroyed, but you cant replace a good pliot.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

I spoke with Sir Kaiser Tufail Sahib - confirms it was F-7PG not a trainer. Pilot is 100% safe. Ejected successfully and was extracted without incident.



I S I said:


> F7PG,Mirage are flying coffins. Better retire them asap. Pilots life are more precious than a metal junk.
> Good to know Pilot is safe.



Not true at all some of those F-7 variants were inducted in early 2000s and not only do they have plenty of service life in them - they are very much capable interceptor aircrafts for our needs. Older variants must be scrapped, I do believe the time and era of the Mirages on the other hand is over. 75-80% of them need to be grounded NOW.

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## Thorough Pro

No they are not flying coffins, shit happens.



I S I said:


> F7PG,Mirage are flying coffins. Better retire them asap. Pilots life are more precious than a metal junk.
> Good to know Pilot is safe.


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## I S I

Subcontinental said:


> Shame


Yes you're a shame indeed.


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## tarrar

Wasn't F7 retired recently.


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## fatman17

Pilot Ejects Safely Before Pakistan Air Force Chengdu F-7 Crash

Posted on 9 September, 2015



Pakistan Air Force Chengdu F-7MP from 14 Squadron ‘Tail Choppers’ taxies out at PAF Base Kamra-Minhas on February 18, 2007. A PAF F-7, believed to be an F-7PG variant, crashed today in Balochistan after the pilot had ejected safely. AFD-Alan Warnes

A PAKISTAN Air Force (PAF) Chengdu F-7 was destroyed in a crash today, September 9, near Mustung, Balochistan province. The pilot, FltLt Yasir Ali, ejected safely.

The aircraft was undertaking a routine training flight from PAF Base Samungli, Quetta, in poor weather when the engine caught fire and then seized. The aircraft, believed to be an F-7PG variant, was destroyed, but there was no loss of life or damage to property on the ground. AFD-Dave Allport

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## انگریز

PG are Pakistan's interceptors, being the fastest planes in the inventory


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## Abu Zolfiqar

انگریز said:


> PG are Pakistan's interceptors, being the fastest planes in the inventory



they are fantastic aircrafts and the newer variant ones will continue to serve us for well over another decade or so.

PAF is gradually replacing the oldest ones with JF-17s as the latter's production rate increases.


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## shah1398

Basel said:


> with 5th generation WVR missiles coupled with HMS/HMD PGs will be very potent interceptor if employed with good tactics.
> 
> If PGs are carrying 2 R-74s or ASRAAMs and 2 IRIS-T or A-Darters with HMS/HMD one can imagine how deadly they can be in interceptor role as earlier missiles have good range (up to 50kms) and later are very deadly in close range, in well trained hands they will be very deadly for any below 5th gen fighter jet.



Sir wishlist has no ending and we want even more than that but question is that would current Griffo Radar on PGs (plz correct me if i am wrong) accommodate or is capable to get these upgrades integrated with it? I highly doubt that its gona happen. Also i am sure that PAF is wise enough not to use any of the funds on up gradation of PGs rather they have got many other areas which are already good and can be brought in at par with any modern system.



tarrar said:


> Wasn't F7 retired recently.



Those retired were from number 2 squadron and they were F-7Ps, not F-7PGs.


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## black-hawk_101

But for PAF Mirage IIIs and Vs, its better to phase out non-Rose ones and convert them into spares for the Rose Upgraded Mirage IIIs and Vs. Also, buy MirageVs from Egypt as spares to support the current fleet. In the mean time PAF needs to negotiate for SU-35s or J-31s.


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## Bilal Khan 777

Subcontinental said:


> shame "F-7" is down, thank god that guy is safe.



Thank you for the good wishes. The F7 experience in Pakistan is not even close to the nightmare India has on the Mig-21. however, aircraft are machines and machines fail. Thank god for a safe ejection.

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## aftab_s81

*Moscow:* Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov said, Sputnik reported.

Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS. Increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India, Ryabkov said, adding that Pak-Russia ties were improving in other sectors as well, including energy.

The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."

The twin-engine Sukhoi-35 is a fourth generation multi-role combat jet which also incorporates technology of the fifth generation jets, according to details available on the Sukhoi company's website. It is also said to be more agile as compared to previous models.

Pakistan and Russia had signed a bilateral defence cooperation agreement aimed at strengthening military-to-military relations in November last year. The deal had to be followed by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ to pave the way for sale of defence equipment to Pakistan.

Just last year, Russia’s Rostec hi-tech corporation CEO Sergey Chemezov announced that Russia had lifted its embargo on the delivery of armaments and military hardware to Pakistan and was holding negotiations on the delivery of helicopters to the country.


black-hawk_101 said:


> But for PAF Mirage IIIs and Vs, its better to phase out non-Rose ones and convert them into spares for the Rose Upgraded Mirage IIIs and Vs. Also, buy MirageVs from Egypt as spares to support the current fleet. In the mean time PAF needs to negotiate for SU-35s or J-31s.

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## graphican

aftab_s81 said:


> *Moscow:* Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov said, Sputnik reported.
> 
> Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS. Increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India, Ryabkov said, adding that Pak-Russia ties were improving in other sectors as well, including energy.
> 
> The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."
> 
> The twin-engine Sukhoi-35 is a fourth generation multi-role combat jet which also incorporates technology of the fifth generation jets, according to details available on the Sukhoi company's website. It is also said to be more agile as compared to previous models.
> 
> Pakistan and Russia had signed a bilateral defence cooperation agreement aimed at strengthening military-to-military relations in November last year. The deal had to be followed by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ to pave the way for sale of defence equipment to Pakistan.
> 
> Just last year, Russia’s Rostec hi-tech corporation CEO Sergey Chemezov announced that Russia had lifted its embargo on the delivery of armaments and military hardware to Pakistan and was holding negotiations on the delivery of helicopters to the country.



Oh Bhai, you've posted this news a wrong section. This thread isone of the most hatred thread at PDF. Don't put any news in this particular thread.. this is for crashes only.


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## I S I

Subcontinental said:


> shame "F-7" is down, thank god that guy is safe.


Yeah whatever


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## Basel

shah1398 said:


> Sir wishlist has no ending and we want even more than that but question is that would current Griffo Radar on PGs (plz correct me if i am wrong) accommodate or is capable to get these upgrades integrated with it? I highly doubt that its gona happen. Also i am sure that PAF is wise enough not to use any of the funds on up gradation of PGs rather they have got many other areas which are already good and can be brought in at par with any modern system.
> 
> 
> 
> Those retired were from number 2 squadron and they were F-7Ps, not F-7PGs.



Its not wishlist 2 out 4 (R-73/74 & A-Darter) weapon systems have huge probability of being inducted in PAF as they are pursuing those for different reasons.


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## Panther 57

DMP said:


> but by observing the conditions we can predict whats gonna happen as PAF is showing interest in Yak-130, KAIs machine and L-15 so this indicates that a advance trainer is coming soon as if we are gonna retire mirages and f-7s and after some time F-7PGs too so what we are left with ?????? F-16 and Jf-17 so what after K-8p direct thunder then F-16 who's gonna do the interception job ?????? a trainer will which could be converted to light attack jet will fill the gap ....!!!!!!!!! steps will gonna b something like this you go to Mushshak then probably super mushshak then to t-37 then K-8 in fighter conventional after K-8P the more advanced trainer which might come soon then on thunder and J-10b or F-16 after it.


What is wrong with sending pilots to F-16 and Thunder directly? And by the way for interception both thunder and F-16 are MR aircraft, fully capable of performing air interceptions. T-37 is ultimately going to be retired and when Mushak is a mushak irrespective whether MFI-17 or super Mushak. 

Technology is changing and PAF is taking full advantage. Results are evident through tremendous reduction i suspension rates, possible only through extensive simulator training. So my friend dont worry our boys are fully capable to jump in fly by wire cockpit out of K-8



Subcontinental said:


> Mig-21 Belongs here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i have no Faith in these 3rd Gen Fighters.


My friend never say this thing infront of those who have been sitting in these machines. You will offend them.


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## TaimiKhan

*Guys, keep the discussion to crash of jets. For other discussion relevant threads are there.*


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## Panther 57

Subcontinental said:


> they want/need new fighters, they deserve Rafales and LCAs. its our governments fault.....


Its no body's fault its fault of budgets. Governments have to look at their budgets and try to accommodate as much as they can . Aircraft are not cheap. Its not only the cost of aircraft which is considered, but support cost as well. there are some strategic points which become decisive factors. those in business have to deliberate each point and then reach a structured decision. It cant be on the whims.

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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> *Guys, keep the discussion to crash of jets. For other discussion relevant threads are there.*


 
ideally TK these posts should be deleted.


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## shah1398

Basel said:


> Its not wishlist 2 out 4 (R-73/74 & A-Darter) weapon systems have huge probability of being inducted in PAF as they are pursuing those for different reasons.



Yes Sir, U r right abt that. But i PGs?I highly doubt that.


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## alimobin memon

well I still think F7PG is excellent Dogfighter with Aerodynamics improvements incorporated from F16 it can still serve u know.


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## Basel

shah1398 said:


> Yes Sir, U r right abt that. But i PGs?I highly doubt that.



Don't doubt it man, if F-7 can have AIM-9L/Ms (see pic below) then why PGs can't have those as they will give them deadly WVR capability and to some level BVR capability too because ASRAAM or R-73/74 have ranges of upto 50 to 40 kms.


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## fatman17

Basel said:


> Don't doubt it man, if F-7 can have AIM-9L/Ms (see pic below) then why PGs can't have those as they will give them deadly WVR capability and to some level BVR capability too because ASRAAM or R-73/74 have ranges of upto 50 to 40 kms.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 255702


 
the pic is of F7PG double delta wings.


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## karakoram

[Bregs] said:


> better to have 200 hospitals, 200 colleges and some highways instead


yeah I was mocking my fellow pds member. he has a very long and dhasu wish list of aircrafts   



Muhammad Omar said:


> Paise China dega ya Russia??


paisa altaf Bhai dega bolo kitna chaheye

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## [Bregs]

karakoram said:


> yeah I was mocking my fellow pds member. he has a very long and dhasu wish list of aircrafts
> 
> 
> paisa altaf Bhai dega bolo kitna chaheye



lol; bro his list of weapons can US afford only not even china can have that lol

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## karakoram

[Bregs] said:


> lol; bro his list of weapons can US afford only not even china can have that lol


lolz yeah right  but day dreaming has no limit let him dream what ever he want  btw how are you boss long time bo see

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## [Bregs]

karakoram said:


> lolz yeah right  but day dreaming has no limit let him dream what ever he want  btw how are you boss long time bo see



yeah some times i am busy but i do come once daily to get updates here

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## Basel

fatman17 said:


> the pic is of F7PG double delta wings.



F-7s are compatible with those as it was one of primary requirement of PAF when they asked for 24 modifications in them.


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## syed zia Hassan

hi everyone ..see the my picture and tell me about who I am ?

hi any one from (29th GDP allied)


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## fatman17

syed zia Hassan said:


> hi everyone ..see the my picture and tell me about who I am ?
> 
> hi any one from (29th GDP allied)



this is not the right thread for it. go to members introduction thread.


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## syed zia Hassan

ok


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## LonE_WolF

F-7 just crashed on a routine flight. One pilot is safe while co pilot injured.


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## shah1398

LonE_WolF said:


> F-7 just crashed on a routine flight. One pilot is safe while co pilot injured.


Area plz? It F-7P or PG?


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## LonE_WolF

shah1398 said:


> Area plz? It F-7P or PG?


saw it on news, they were just saying F-7. I think it was Mianwali.


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## shah1398

shah1398 said:


> Area plz? It F-7P or PG?


Can not find anything of news yet. Lets wait then.


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## aliyusuf

If its Mianwali, then it could be an FT-7PG trainer from the Cheetahs Sqd # 20 of the PAF Base M.M. Alam.


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## Windjammer

It was an FT-7 dual seat trainer which crashed in Kundlan area of Mianawali.
Although both pilots ejected but sadly female student pilot F/O Mariam em brassed martyrdom. 

Inna Lillah!

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## AtiF Malang

May Allah keep the pilots safe and sound. Aameen
Edited : إِنَّا للهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ
May Allah bless the female cadet. Aameen

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## The Eagle

RIP our sister. Indeed a great loss but her martyrdom will give us all courage. My sympathies with the family.

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## pkd

Windjammer said:


> It was an FT-7 dual seat trainer which crashed in Kundlan area of Mianawali.
> Although both pilots ejected but sadly female student pilot F/O Mariam em brassed martyrdom.
> 
> Inna Lillah!




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/669072016448864257


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## Windjammer

pkd said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/669072016448864257



Not sure, this is the tweet i received,


> Flying Officer Mariam embraced martyrdom in today's FT-7 crash near Mianwali. Instructor pilot conscious but still in ICU.


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## Paksanity

إِنَّا للهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ‎


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## Arsalan

O God 
إِنَّا للهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ
May Her soul rest in peace, Dont know why it feels more of a loss compared to if it was some male cadet. Not to sound gender biased but we all can agree that women have a spcial place/respect in our lives, both through our religion and culture so i am that much more sad on this news. May Allah give courage to the family of the cadet.

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## Windjammer

God bless you sister, our hearts are broken.

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## thesameguy

News channels reporting safe ejection, no death


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## Rashid Mahmood

So Sad.
إِنَّا للهِوَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


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## thesameguy

Rashid Mahmood said:


> So Sad.
> إِنَّا للهِوَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


Not confirmed by any news channel yet


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## Rashid Mahmood

thesameguy said:


> Not confirmed by any news channel yet



Confirmed by Dunya News & ARY.


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## NHUDA

PAF aircraft crashes in Mianwali, female trainee pilot dead - Daily Pakistan Global

RIP Sister ... Tragic Loss


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## Windjammer

thesameguy said:


> Not confirmed by any news channel yet



*She was from Baluchistan. *

Lady pilot Maryam martyred as PAF training aircraft crashes near Mianwali - thenews.com.pk


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## LonE_WolF

إِنَّا للهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ‎

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## Windjammer




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## Peaceful Civilian

Windjammer said:


> God bless you sister, our hearts are broken.


Sad news. RIP....


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## AHMED85

Sad news

Why not she ejected herself.


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## Drebin

My deepest condolences for the brave daughter of the soil and first ever female martyred in the line of duty. May God rest her soul in peace and giver courage to her family in their trying times. 

P.S, F-7PGs are relatively new platforms, aren't they? Thus, that'd rule out the notion of obsolence. So, has the cause of the crash been ascertained yet?


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## niaz

My salute to a brave Pakistani girl and condolences to her family.

Sadly the brave die young.


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## aliyusuf

I salute the warrior sister.
May Allah grant her Jannah.



aliyusuf said:


> If its Mianwali, then it could be an FT-7PG trainer from the Cheetahs Sqd # 20 of the PAF Base M.M. Alam.




Confirmed that it was an FT-7PG that crashed.


> A PAF FT-7PG flown by Squadron Leader Saqib Abbasi and co-pilot Flying Officer Marium Mukhtiar was on a routine operational training mission when it encountered an in-flight emergency during the final stages of the mission, said a PAF statement




*Source:*
Female pilot dies as PAF trainer jet crashes near Mianwali - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

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## I S I

Time to retire these flying coffins.

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## hassan1



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## hassan1



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## MilSpec

Very sad news, RIP Brave-hearts.

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## Wingman

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ
.
They were in the Final stage of the Mission, Coming to Land, air craft developed Some technical Issues, she Initiated ejection Procedure as she was sitting in the rear cockpit, ejection Went fine but Something Happened to her during ejection as she was found unconscious and died during medical Treatment.. S/L Saqib sustained Minor injuries

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## war&peace

It is really a sad and tragic news. She is a martyr in line of her duty. May Allah grant her highest place in Jannah. 
PAF please retire F7s before more casualties......a 50 yrs old machine with cheap materials and one of earliest copies of Russian airplane by Chinese. JF-17 are a much better alternative.


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## Humble Analyst

Wingman said:


> إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ
> .
> They were in the Final stage of the Mission, Coming to Land, air craft developed Some technical Issues, she Initiated ejection Procedure as she was sitting in the rear cockpit, ejection Went fine but Something Happened to her during ejection as she was found unconscious and died during medical Treatment.. S/L Saqib sustained Minor injuries


 Souds like ejection seat canopy issue.


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## thesameguy

PAF got plenty of flying coffins. Top brass is in no hurry to ramp up JF-17 production and get rid of these vintage jets who belong in the museum


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## [Bregs]

such crashes are very unfortunate, takes away precious lives of young pilots. rest in peace

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## Humble Analyst

thesameguy said:


> PAF got plenty of flying coffins. Top brass is in no hurry to ramp up JF-17 production and get rid of these vintage jets who belong in the museum


Do they have the money and resources, I can understand the emotions are high but have to understand the ground realities.



thesameguy said:


> PAF got plenty of flying coffins. Top brass is in no hurry to ramp up JF-17 production and get rid of these vintage jets who belong in the museum


Top brass flew in the older ones themselves.

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## Viper 94

Bull said:


> Probably he decided to be in the plane so that he can manouvoure the plane out off populated area.


here is something we could do to prevent this.
stop the building of population centers around airbases so the pilots won't need to risk their lives to avoid hitting civilians 
also the PAF should train its pilots away from population centers 

that said these f-7s and mirages for that matter are old and unreliable. They need to be phased out ASAP 
these crashes are inevitable when you have such old planes 
these fighters were outdated in the 90s and now there are 2 decades past their retirement age 
not just age wise but their capability is also not up to the standards for a potent air force

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## Abu Zolfiqar

I feel as if i lost my own sister.......what a sad news. Loss of talent. 

RIP comrade.



Viper 94 said:


> here is something we could do to prevent this.
> stop the building of population centers around airbases so the pilots won't need to risk their lives to avoid hitting civilians
> also the PAF should train its pilots away from population centers
> 
> that said these f-7s and mirages for that matter are old and unreliable. They need to be phased out ASAP
> these crashes are inevitable when you have such old planes
> these fighters were outdated in the 90s and now there are 2 decades past their retirement age
> not just age wise but their capability is also not up to the standards for a potent air force



the old ones should most definitely be retired immediately.....the ones inducted in later years are good and we will continue to fly them for some time

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## Viper 94

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I feel as if i lost my own sister.......what a sad news. Loss of talent.
> 
> RIP comrade.
> 
> 
> 
> the old ones should most definitely be retired immediately.....the ones inducted in later years are good and we will continue to fly them for some time


that is unfortunate because their capability is not even comparable to 4th gen and by 2020 more and more 4.5 and 5th gen fighter are going to be in service and f-7pg is simply not going to survive the future threat environment 
even jf-17 will have a tough time after year 2020 but at least it won't have all these pesky maintenance issues


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Viper 94 said:


> that is unfortunate because their capability is not even comparable to 4th gen and by 2020 more and more 4.5 and 5th gen fighter are going to be in service and f-7pg is simply not going to survive the future threat environment
> even jf-17 will have a tough time after year 2020 but at least it won't have all these pesky maintenance issues



JF17 is evolving and will be backbone of PAF for quite some time, premier/flagship will of course be the F-16s (new ones, and refurbished/modernized/upgraded older fleet). Yeah all F-7s/PGs etc will be phased out by 2025 or 2030 ish - i would imagine let's see


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## ArsalanKhan21

Humble Analyst said:


> Top brass flew in the older ones themselves.



When the flew these planes they were new and serviceable and now they are only flying coffins. Let old top brass fly these old plane the new young pilots should have shiny new planes.


----------



## fatman17

A Pakistani Air Force (PAF) pilot has died




during a training flight. Muarium Mukhtiar died after her FT-7PG crashed due to an unspecified in-flight emergency. Muhtiar was one of 20 female pilots in the PAF since females were allowed combat roles in 2006. The accident has been one in a series of crashes of PAF aircraft this year which included another fighter in September, and two military helicopters in August and May. Pakistan is currently revamping



its older aircraft in service and co-developing new fighters with China to reduce dependence on western companies.

*Pakistan's First Female Fighter Pilot Killed in Trainer Crash*
By Usman Ansari 3:25 p.m. EST November 24, 2015

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan's first female fighter pilot died today when a twin-seat fighter aircraft crashed in Punjab province on a training mission.

A statement from the Pakistan Air Force soon after the crash said "an FT-7PG aircraft, while on a routine operational training mission, crashed near Kundian (Mianwali). Both the pilots of the aircraft ejected safely and [have] been rescued. No loss of civilian life and property has been reported on ground. A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident."

However, it was later reported that Flying Officer Marium Mukhtiar died of injuries sustained on ejection.

Flying Officer Mukhtiar was the subject of a report by the BBC early in 2014 that covered her decision to join the PAF as a fighter pilot. Pakistan has only had female fighter pilots since 2006.

Defense News was unable to obtain more details from the PAF's Director of Media Affairs Air Commodore Muhammad Ali as further information was unavailable in the early stages of the aftermath of the crash.

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) soldiers carry the coffin of female fighter jet pilot Marium Mukhtiar, who was killed in a crash during a training mission, at the Faisal Air Base in Karachi. (Photo: AFP/Getty Images)

The FT-7PG was ordered in 1999 as part of the F-7PG package. The F-7PG is a double-delta development of the Chengdu F-7 and fitted with uprated avionics by Pakistan.

Kaiser Tufail was one of the officers who evaluated the F-7PG prior to its selection and purchase. He also flew the F-7P operationally. A former air force pilot and analyst, Tufail praised the aircraft, but under certain circumstances said it can be unforgiving.

"The FT-7PG is a regular F-7P except for the cockpit switchology and layout, which is similar to the -PG version," he said. "It is a fairly safe aircraft ... until something fails drastically."

He said he understands whatever happened hampered the ability of the pilots to eject safely.

"I have no idea what might have gone wrong, but word has it that since the ejection took place at very low altitude on final approach, the fatality might have been due to a delayed ejection," he said. "Under such flight conditions involving a rate of descent, there is not giving enough time for the chute to blossom fully."

He said without further details however this is presently speculative.

Pakistan's F-7 series of fighters are fitted with Martin Baker Mk10 zero-zero ejection seats in which it places a high degree of faith. The seat is also fitted to its Mirage-III/5s, and prior to their retirement from Pakistani service was fitted to the Nanchang A-5, Shenyang FT-5 and F-6/FT-6 jets.

Though it is a very good seat, Tufail said under certain circumstances it may not perform as well as it could.
"It is a zero-zero seat, but these have to be activated in level flight at zero level (ground). If there is a rate of descent, the minimum ejection height goes up, proportionately. In this case, the aircraft was low, on final approach, and the rate of descent apparently did not allow enough time for the parachute to blossom fully," he said.

Tufail said he believes for Mukhtiar these circumstances may have been compounded by the type of training mission she may have been flying as usually the instructor occupies the rear seat. However, if it was an instrument flying mission, then the student would have sat in the rear seat and been under a 'hood' to restrict external vision.

Though he said he did not know her personally, Tufail paid tribute to Mukhtiar.

"I am told she was a very fine officer."

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## Muhammad Saleem Azam

"Surely we belong to Allah and to Him shall we return" 
This is a great loss to the Nation, our condolences to *Maryum Mukhtiar, *we pray that the Almighty Allah gives the family strength to overcome this irreplaceable loss Aa'min.

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## Humble Analyst

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> When the flew these planes they were new and serviceable and now they are only flying coffins. Let old top brass fly these old plane the new young pilots should have shiny new planes.


 No the F7 was the old version now we have F7PG, for fighter conversion the top brass flew FT5 which were Chinese version of Mig 15. Do agree Mirages are old but when top brass flew them they did not have MLU. It is a financial restraint and please check details before making sweeping statements. I still believe we need new planes though but do not like baseless accusations which bring the morale down by propoganda.


----------



## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> A Pakistani Air Force (PAF) pilot has died
> 
> 
> 
> during a training flight. Muarium Mukhtiar died after her FT-7PG crashed due to an unspecified in-flight emergency. Muhtiar was one of 20 female pilots in the PAF since females were allowed combat roles in 2006. The accident has been one in a series of crashes of PAF aircraft this year which included another fighter in September, and two military helicopters in August and May. Pakistan is currently revamping
> 
> 
> 
> its older aircraft in service and co-developing new fighters with China to reduce dependence on western companies.
> 
> *Pakistan's First Female Fighter Pilot Killed in Trainer Crash*
> By Usman Ansari 3:25 p.m. EST November 24, 2015
> 
> ISLAMABAD — Pakistan's first female fighter pilot died today when a twin-seat fighter aircraft crashed in Punjab province on a training mission.
> 
> A statement from the Pakistan Air Force soon after the crash said "an FT-7PG aircraft, while on a routine operational training mission, crashed near Kundian (Mianwali). Both the pilots of the aircraft ejected safely and [have] been rescued. No loss of civilian life and property has been reported on ground. A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident."
> 
> However, it was later reported that Flying Officer Marium Mukhtiar died of injuries sustained on ejection.
> 
> Flying Officer Mukhtiar was the subject of a report by the BBC early in 2014 that covered her decision to join the PAF as a fighter pilot. Pakistan has only had female fighter pilots since 2006.
> 
> Defense News was unable to obtain more details from the PAF's Director of Media Affairs Air Commodore Muhammad Ali as further information was unavailable in the early stages of the aftermath of the crash.
> 
> Pakistan Air Force (PAF) soldiers carry the coffin of female fighter jet pilot Marium Mukhtiar, who was killed in a crash during a training mission, at the Faisal Air Base in Karachi. (Photo: AFP/Getty Images)
> 
> The FT-7PG was ordered in 1999 as part of the F-7PG package. The F-7PG is a double-delta development of the Chengdu F-7 and fitted with uprated avionics by Pakistan.
> 
> Kaiser Tufail was one of the officers who evaluated the F-7PG prior to its selection and purchase. He also flew the F-7P operationally. A former air force pilot and analyst, Tufail praised the aircraft, but under certain circumstances said it can be unforgiving.
> 
> "The FT-7PG is a regular F-7P except for the cockpit switchology and layout, which is similar to the -PG version," he said. "It is a fairly safe aircraft ... until something fails drastically."
> 
> He said he understands whatever happened hampered the ability of the pilots to eject safely.
> 
> "I have no idea what might have gone wrong, but word has it that since the ejection took place at very low altitude on final approach, the fatality might have been due to a delayed ejection," he said. "Under such flight conditions involving a rate of descent, there is not giving enough time for the chute to blossom fully."
> 
> He said without further details however this is presently speculative.
> 
> Pakistan's F-7 series of fighters are fitted with Martin Baker Mk10 zero-zero ejection seats in which it places a high degree of faith. The seat is also fitted to its Mirage-III/5s, and prior to their retirement from Pakistani service was fitted to the Nanchang A-5, Shenyang FT-5 and F-6/FT-6 jets.
> 
> Though it is a very good seat, Tufail said under certain circumstances it may not perform as well as it could.
> "It is a zero-zero seat, but these have to be activated in level flight at zero level (ground). If there is a rate of descent, the minimum ejection height goes up, proportionately. In this case, the aircraft was low, on final approach, and the rate of descent apparently did not allow enough time for the parachute to blossom fully," he said.
> 
> Tufail said he believes for Mukhtiar these circumstances may have been compounded by the type of training mission she may have been flying as usually the instructor occupies the rear seat. However, if it was an instrument flying mission, then the student would have sat in the rear seat and been under a 'hood' to restrict external vision.
> 
> Though he said he did not know her personally, Tufail paid tribute to Mukhtiar.
> 
> "I am told she was a very fine officer."



She was not the first female fighter Pilot. Never the less a great loss

Ayesha is the first female fighter pilot, if you all can remember


----------



## Drebin

syed_yusuf said:


> She was not the first female fighter Pilot. Never the less a great loss
> 
> Ayesha is the first female fighter pilot, if you all can remember


Unfortunately we can't. Can you kindly remind us and quote the source. We'll be indebted to you.

Best regards.

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## muhammadali233

Is this pilot Flying Officer Mariam Mukhtar?


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## The Eagle

muhammadali233 said:


> View attachment 274830
> 
> Is this pilot Flying Officer Mariam Mukhtar?



At least name tag proves it to be Maryam


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

I would like to see the aerial view of the crash site---to determine what residential area she was trying to protect.


----------



## TaimiKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would like to see the aerial view of the crash site---to determine what residential area she was trying to protect.



Sir, plz open the link below and see the pics and then the video also. You can clearly see buildings hardly 50-100 meter away from the crash site. 

Female pilot dies as PAF trainer jet crashes near Mianwali - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

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## MastanKhan

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir, plz open the link below and see the pics and then the video also. You can clearly see buildings hardly 50-100 meter away from the crash site.
> 
> Female pilot dies as PAF trainer jet crashes near Mianwali - Pakistan - DAWN.COM




Hi,

The video does not give God's eye view of the accident-----. You should listen to Rauf Klasra's interview of the Retd Air Vice Marshall----.


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## mrrehan

Where is this interview i can find any link please.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Well the gist of the interview was that the pilots are instructed to save the aircraft at all costs----


----------



## fatman17

Army Mushshak

Two Crew Killed in Crash of Pakistan Army Mushshak

Posted on 9 February, 2016

Pakistan Army Mushshak 95-5375 takes off from Quasim on November 17, 2009. One of the Army’s Mushshaks crashed this evening, killing both pilots. AFD-Alan Warnes

BOTH CREW members were killed when a Pakistan Army PAC MFI-17 Mushshak crashed this evening, February 9, near Gujranwala in the Gujrat district of Punjab. The fatalities were identified as instructor pilot Major Azhar and student pilot Captain Ahmed.

The circumstances surrounding the crash, which occurred during a routine training mission, were not immediately clear. AFD-Dave Allport


----------



## fatman17

One Crew Member Killed in Pakistan Army Mi-17 Crash

Posted on 29 February, 2016


Pakistan Army Aviation Corps Mi-172 58628 taxies out at Qasim Army Aviation Base on November 17, 2009. A Pakistan Army Mi-17 crashed today near Tarbela, killing one of the five crew members. AFD-Alan Warnes

A PAKISTAN Army Aviation Corps Mi-17 helicopter crashed today, February 29, following a technical malfunction during a routine night training flight. One crew member, identified as Lt Col Tauqeer, died in the accident.

Four other crew members escaped from the crash, although it was not reported whether any of them had been injured. The helicopter came down near Tarbela, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. AFD-Dave Allport

Posted in News


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## MastanKhan

Not a paf---but a US F16 crashed after flyover an F18 also crashed---pilot died saving lives on ground

*Air Force jet crashes in Colo. after flyover at Obama graduation speech---pilot bailed out---survived the crash*

*http://www.cbsnews.com/news/air-force-jet-crashes-after-flyover-at-colorado-obama-graduation-speech/*

*Then an F18 crashed as well---pilot died in the crash*

*https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-navy-blue-angels-fighter-044411041.html*


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## Bilal Khan 777

Wingman said:


> إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ
> .
> They were in the Final stage of the Mission, Coming to Land, air craft developed Some technical Issues, she Initiated ejection Procedure as she was sitting in the rear cockpit, ejection Went fine but Something Happened to her during ejection as she was found unconscious and died during medical Treatment.. S/L Saqib sustained Minor injuries


Ejection seats are qualified to a particular weight category. Anyone below that category is at risk. The position during ejection is also extremely critical. Any mistake during this violent event can cause serious injury, which was the case of this fine young lady. RIP.

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## GuardianRED

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Ejection seats are qualified to a particular weight category. Anyone below that category is at risk. The position during ejection is also extremely critical. Any mistake during this violent event can cause serious injury, which was the case of this fine young lady. RIP.



This is true ie the case of positioning of the seat!. An Indian Piloting a Jaguar was killed while ejecting, the reason was the he adjusting his seat at a dangerous Setting 

BUT can u explain the weight? how would this effect in this case - The pilot i assume wasn't heavy ?


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## Bilal Khan 777

GuardianRED said:


> This is true ie the case of positioning of the seat!. An Indian Piloting a Jaguar was killed while ejecting, the reason was the he adjusting his seat at a dangerous Setting
> 
> BUT can u explain the weight? how would this effect in this case - The pilot i assume wasn't heavy ?



Every seat is qualified for Anthrometric data, highest and lowest percentile weight category of a pilot. If the weight category is low or high, it puts the pilot at risk during ejection. However, the most important data is the ejection position. If the pilot has not taken the correct position during ejection, the Gs (16-20) can easily put strain on the spinal column specifically the neck, since the pilot is wearing a helmet. When the helmet starts weighing 16 to 20 kilos, it can cause serious injury, leading to death.

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## Side-Winder

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter jet F7-PG crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency, officials said on Saturday.




According to initial reports, the pilots were not hurt in the incident. Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1187587/paf-fighter-jet-crashes-khyber-agency/


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## DESERT FIGHTER

What do you expect from antique mig-21s and mirages from the 70s.

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## Tipu7

Side-Winder said:


> A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter jet F7-PG crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency, officials said on Saturday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to initial reports, the pilots were not hurt in the incident. Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault.
> 
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/1187587/paf-fighter-jet-crashes-khyber-agency/



PG?
And These Birds are meant to fly beyond 2020. 
Good to know pilot is safe . 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What do you expect from antique mig-21s and mirages from the 70s.



These are new air frames, inducted in 2002.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Tipu7 said:


> PG?
> And These Birds are meant to fly beyond 2020.
> Good to know pilot is safe .
> 
> 
> 
> These are new air frames, inducted in 2002.



And how do you of these were the PG versions or the same old shyt?

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## LonE_WolF

Glad to hear the pilots are safe


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## Farah Sohail

Uffff....PAF... Already i have a strange gut feeling and after tht its surely not a good omen to read such news  ..... Number of crashes have been many...in the last few years.

But thankGod the pilot is safe


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## Tipu7

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And how do you of these were the PG versions or the same old shyt?



By source itself.


*A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter jet F7-PG* crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency, officials said on Saturday.

According to initial reports, the pilots were not hurt in the incident. Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault.

Last year, *a PAF fighter jet F7-PG* crashed near Mastung during what officials described as a routine training operation. The pilot managed to eject to safety.

According to a spokesperson for PAF’s Samungli Airbase in Quetta, “The F7-PG fighter jet was on a routine training mission when its engine caught fire and crashed on a fray near Mastung.”

“The pilot, flight lieutenant Yasir, ejected himself from the plane safely while no loss of life and property was reported in the incident,” he added.

Air force officials, Frontier Corps and Levies rushed to spot soon after the crash and cordoned the area.

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## Windjammer

Guys do consider how many hundreds of extra sorties are currently taking place . Some technical snag is bound to hit somewhere.

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## M.SAAD

F7? PG? What junk.!!


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## nunna

MIG 21 and its variants are quite difficult fighter to fly specially for newly trained pilots or with technical problems, we need to retire all these 2nd Gen jets ASAP and should replace them with at least JF-17 and F-16s.


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## Tipu7

Windjammer said:


> Guys do consider how many hundreds of extra sorties are currently taking place . Some technical snag is bound to hit somewhere.
> 
> View attachment 337467


I think its first air crash this year, past year there was one crash too.
Both were F7PG.
One crash per year is definitely not bad record ............
Compared to our neighbor who lost 2 aircrafts in a month and one barely survived few days ago

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## Windjammer

nunna said:


> MIG 21 and its variants are quite difficult fighter to fly specially for newly trained pilots or with technical problems, we need to retire all these 2nd Gen jets ASAP and should replace them with at least JF-17 and F-16s.


The F-7PG in fact is a potent aircraft, during DACT, it proved a worthy opponent against the F-16s, it was due to it's good capabilities that it was fielded to exercise with the F-22.

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## Path-Finder

these birds have served far beyond their imaginable service date in comparison to what's available on the market today. Hopefully JF17 production can increase and these birds get retired in right proportion of time.

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## hassamun

F-7PG is a very reliable aircraft made for CAPs...The best thing is that the Pilots are safe...The rest doesn't matter...My father had an ejection in the 1970s...

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## The Eagle

Pilot is safe by the grace of ALLAH.

PGs are being pushed beyond limits being an old platform but still capable enough for dedicated rule though technical glitches cannot be ruled out. Safe flying guys.

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## Windjammer

Tipu7 said:


> I think its first air crash this year, past year there was one crash too.
> Both were F7PG.
> One crash per year is definitely not bad record ............
> Compared to our neighbor who lost 2 aircrafts in a month and one barely survived few days ago


You know i just checked the records and you are damn spot on.
we have had a few army aviation accidents but first air force incident this year......not bad at all considering all of our jets are single engine....unlike across the border.

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## Armoured Division

Tipu7 said:


> I think its first air crash this year, past year there was one crash too.
> Both were F7PG.
> One crash per year is definitely not bad record ............
> Compared to our neighbor who lost 2 aircrafts in a month and one barely survived few days ago


There were three PAF Jet crashes last year(2 Mirages & 1 F-7) and not one

Since you dragged India into this thread, as per data from 'aviation-safety net' & 'ejection co uk' since January 2012 onwards and till date(today) there have 25 crashes of IAF jets compared to 18 crashes of PAF jets; i.e. a ratio of 1.39:1 now taking into consideration that IAF is at least 1.8x to 2.0x the size of PAF, PAF's crash rate is worse than IAF

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## Casia

Thanks Allah Almighty that pilots is safe, we need to change 2nd Gen single engine fighter jets urgently.


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## umair86pk

Armoured Division said:


> There were three PAF Jet crashes last year(2 Mirages & 1 F-7) and not one
> 
> Since you dragged India into this thread, as per data from 'aviation-safety net' & 'ejection co uk' since January 2012 onwards and till date(today) there have 25 crashes of IAF jets compared to 18 crashes of PAF jets; i.e. a ratio of 1.39:1 now taking into consideration that IAF is at least 1.8x to 2.0x the size of PAF, PAF's crash rate is worse than IAF



Why we always compare ratio. You can't expect to loose half aircraft. Losses do happen its a risky business be it technical fault or human error its been the issue since the begining of flight we have to live with it.


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## Armoured Division

umair86pk said:


> Why we always compare ratio. You can't expect to loose half aircraft. Losses do happen its a risky business be it technical fault or human error its been the issue since the begining of flight we have to live with it.


Agreed that looses do happen.
Anyways the only reason I mentioned the ratio is because Tipu7 & Windjammer dragged in India into this thread without any reason.

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## Mrc

Good thing pilot is safe


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## Windjammer

Armoured Division said:


> There were three PAF Jet crashes last year(2 Mirages & 1 F-7) and not one
> 
> Since you dragged India into this thread, as per data from 'aviation-safety net' & 'ejection co uk' since January 2012 onwards and till date(today) there have 25 crashes of IAF jets compared to 18 crashes of PAF jets; i.e. a ratio of 1.39:1 now taking into consideration that IAF is at least 1.8x to 2.0x the size of PAF, PAF's crash rate is worse than IAF


There's no comparison whatsoever, you guys don't even have the confidence to fly any single engine over your parade venue and those that participate just make a single straight fly past, on the contrary, we push our jets to their limits right over the heart of our capital.

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## Armoured Division

Windjammer said:


> There's no comparison whatsoever, you guys don't even have the confidence to fly any single engine over your parade venue and those that participate just make a single straight fly past, on the contrary, we push our jets to their limits right over the heart of our capital.


It is a common practice to ban single engine aircraft from venue.Italy, South Korea have placed ban on single engine jets at parades.
Also our aircraft perform several manuevers like vertical charlie at republic day and immelmann & split s at AF day.

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## GuardianRED

Armoured Division said:


> It is a common practice to ban single engine aircraft from venue.Italy, South Korea have placed ban on single engine jets at parades.
> Also our aircraft perform several manuevers like vertical charlie at republic day and immelmann & split s at AF day.


Pal, U forget the Mirage 2000 has taken part in very republic day parade

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## somebozo

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What do you expect from antique mig-21s and mirages from the 70s.



F7 is very capable interceptor but we need to get new air frames...the chinese solved 400+ problems in the air frame design when technology was transferred from soviet union to China..


----------



## GuardianRED

Sorry But why they are reporting this then??


The Express Tribune > Pakistan > KP & FATA
 
* Pilot killed as PAF fighter jet crashes in Khyber Agency*

By Iftikhar Firdous
Published: September 24, 2016
A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pilot was killed on Saturday as a fighter jet F7-PG crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency, _ISPR_ said.

Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault. The area is a high peaked mountain located in the confluence of two tribal areas.

*JF-17 inducted in multirole squadron*

Speaking to _The Express Tribune, _a senior official of the political administration said, “A team of Swat scouts and Levis officials have been sent to the site of the incident.” Meanwhile, locals began rescue efforts, he added.

Last year, a PAF fighter jet F7-PG crashed near Mastung during what officials described as a routine training operation. The pilot managed to eject to safety.

According to a spokesperson for PAF’s Samungli Airbase in Quetta, “The F7-PG fighter jet was on a routine training mission when its engine caught fire and crashed on a fray near Mastung.”

*Female co-pilot dies as training jet crashes in Mianwali*

“The pilot, flight lieutenant Yasir, ejected himself from the plane safely while no loss of life and property was reported in the incident,” he added.

Air force officials, Frontier Corps and Levies rushed to spot soon after the crash and cordoned the area.

_This is a developing story and will be updated accordingly

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1187587/paf-fighter-jet-crashes-khyber-agency/_


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## Hassan Guy

These things are still in service?


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## Windjammer

Armoured Division said:


> It is a common practice to ban single engine aircraft from venue.Italy, South Korea have placed ban on single engine jets at parades.
> Also our aircraft perform several manuevers like vertical charlie at republic day and immelmann & split s at AF day.


Here please enlighten yourself with what's called aerobatics....vertical charlie is aircraft just pulling up away from the venue.

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## GuardianRED

Side-Winder said:


> The quote says it all


And the Headline??? ... Thats a Horrible Misprint!


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## Armoured Division

Windjammer said:


> Here please enlighten yourself with what's called aerobatics....vertical charlie is aircraft just pulling up away from the venue.





Windjammer said:


> Here please enlighten yourself with what's called aerobatics....vertical charlie is aircraft just pulling up away from the venue.


Vertical Charlie is considered an aircraft manuever.
BTW in Republic Day ceremonies there are no need to perform complex manuevers as it is a fly past & parades.
Such manuevers are reserved mainly for Airshows.

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## Windjammer

GuardianRED said:


> Sorry But why they are reporting this then??
> 
> 
> The Express Tribune > Pakistan > KP & FATA
> 
> * Pilot killed as PAF fighter jet crashes in Khyber Agency*
> 
> By Iftikhar Firdous
> Published: September 24, 2016
> A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pilot was killed on Saturday as a fighter jet F7-PG crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency, _ISPR_ said.
> 
> Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault. The area is a high peaked mountain located in the confluence of two tribal areas.
> 
> *JF-17 inducted in multirole squadron*
> 
> Speaking to _The Express Tribune, _a senior official of the political administration said, “A team of Swat scouts and Levis officials have been sent to the site of the incident.” Meanwhile, locals began rescue efforts, he added.
> 
> Last year, a PAF fighter jet F7-PG crashed near Mastung during what officials described as a routine training operation. The pilot managed to eject to safety.
> 
> According to a spokesperson for PAF’s Samungli Airbase in Quetta, “The F7-PG fighter jet was on a routine training mission when its engine caught fire and crashed on a fray near Mastung.”
> 
> *Female co-pilot dies as training jet crashes in Mianwali*
> 
> “The pilot, flight lieutenant Yasir, ejected himself from the plane safely while no loss of life and property was reported in the incident,” he added.
> 
> Air force officials, Frontier Corps and Levies rushed to spot soon after the crash and cordoned the area.
> 
> _This is a developing story and will be updated accordingly
> 
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/1187587/paf-fighter-jet-crashes-khyber-agency/_



There's no mention of pilot being killed in the link, you just doctored the title.

@Irfan Baloch @Oscar @WAJsal


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## Panther 57

Windjammer said:


> There's no mention of pilot being killed in the link, you just doctored the title.
> 
> @Irfan Baloch @Oscar @WAJsal


ARY showing news of fatality Flt/Lt Umar Shahzad


----------



## GuardianRED

Windjammer said:


> There's no mention of pilot being killed in the link, you just doctored the title.
> 
> @Irfan Baloch @Oscar @WAJsal


Pal... Why would i edit the post?

It was misprint from express tribune and have edit their post

Look at the comments ... even one of the reader said it was fake news

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## CHI RULES

The Eagle said:


> Pilot is safe by the grace of ALLAH.
> 
> PGs are being pushed beyond limits being an old platform but still capable enough for dedicated rule though technical glitches cannot be ruled out. Safe flying guys.



A platform inducted in 2000 how it is old?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

GuardianRED said:


> Sorry But why they are reporting this then??
> 
> 
> The Express Tribune > Pakistan > KP & FATA
> 
> * Pilot killed as PAF fighter jet crashes in Khyber Agency*
> 
> By Iftikhar Firdous
> Published: September 24, 2016
> A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pilot was killed on Saturday as a fighter jet F7-PG crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency, _ISPR_ said.
> 
> Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault. The area is a high peaked mountain located in the confluence of two tribal areas.
> 
> *JF-17 inducted in multirole squadron*
> 
> Speaking to _The Express Tribune, _a senior official of the political administration said, “A team of Swat scouts and Levis officials have been sent to the site of the incident.” Meanwhile, locals began rescue efforts, he added.
> 
> Last year, a PAF fighter jet F7-PG crashed near Mastung during what officials described as a routine training operation. The pilot managed to eject to safety.
> 
> According to a spokesperson for PAF’s Samungli Airbase in Quetta, “The F7-PG fighter jet was on a routine training mission when its engine caught fire and crashed on a fray near Mastung.”
> 
> *Female co-pilot dies as training jet crashes in Mianwali*
> 
> “The pilot, flight lieutenant Yasir, ejected himself from the plane safely while no loss of life and property was reported in the incident,” he added.
> 
> Air force officials, Frontier Corps and Levies rushed to spot soon after the crash and cordoned the area.
> 
> _This is a developing story and will be updated accordingly
> 
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/1187587/paf-fighter-jet-crashes-khyber-agency/_



Wow man you are pathetic .. 

You even edit news ..


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## GuardianRED

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Wow man you are pathetic ..
> 
> You even edit news ..


I didn't , can't help your news papers can't get the facts correct!

heck @Panther 57 is saying ARY is reporting the same

Why these comments from your compatriots? - 2 of them is saying fake news - why?

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## RPK

http://tribune.com.pk/pakistan/khyber-pakhtunkhwa-fata/



@GuardianRED is Shows Pilot killed

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## Side-Winder

@Windjammer Some sources are saying one pilot embraced martyrdom. Please look into it.

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## Zarvan

Pilot was martyred unfortunately. We need to ejection system of these F-7 PG and also Mirages

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## G0dfather

RIP

May Almighty provide strength to the family members of deceased pilot.

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## GuardianRED

RPK said:


> http://tribune.com.pk/pakistan/khyber-pakhtunkhwa-fata/
> 
> 
> 
> @GuardianRED is Shows Pilot killed


They have again change the headline (3rd time) , it did show read the aircraft crash and the pilot was safe.

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## ejaz007

RIP son of soil.


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## Farah Sohail

Now PAF is saying tht Pilot has died. Flight lieutenant Umar Shahzad.. May his soul rest in peace......unfortunate........ its official now from PAF spokesman ..its on every channel

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## Devil Soul

*Pilot killed as PAF fighter jet crashes in Khyber Agency*
By Iftikhar Firdous
Published: September 24, 2016
342SHARES
SHARE TWEET EMAIL
A pilot of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was killed on Saturday as his fighter jet crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency.

“The pilot of the aircraft Flt Lt Omer Shazad sustained fatal injuries,” the military’s media wing ISPR said. The PAF aircraft was on a routine operational training mission.

“No loss of civilian life and property has been reported on ground,” the statement added. A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident.

Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault. Speaking to_The Express Tribune, _a senior official of the political administration said, “A team of Swat scouts and Levis officials have been sent to the site of the incident.”

*JF-17 inducted in multirole squadron*

Last year, a PAF fighter jet F7-PG crashed near Mastung during what officials described as a routine training operation. According to a spokesperson for PAF’s Samungli Airbase in Quetta, “The F7-PG fighter jet was on a routine training mission when its engine caught fire and crashed on a fray near Mastung.”


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## ssalizai

RIP


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## IceCold

Can anybody explain why even after the presence of ejection seat did the pilot got killed? Did he not ejected or was it the angle of ejection or the terrain itself or the ejection seat itself it the main reason which resulted in the loss of a precious life and an asset of our country?
May Allah SWT give him a place in heaven and sabar to his family members. We all grieve over the loss of a son of soil. Our salute to the men in uniform who lay their lives so that we can live peacefully.

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## Skyliner

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajiun
Allah unhen jannat-ul-firdous may allaw makkam atta farmae AMEEN

I still hope this news is not true.

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## aliyusuf

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un (Arabic: إِنَّا للهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ‎‎)
May Allah Grant him Jannat and give his loved ones the solace and fortitude to bear his Shahadat.
RIP Sir.

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## Signalian

@Windjammer 

what kind of faults is F-7 P/PG prone to?


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## X-2.

Side-Winder said:


> A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter jet F7-PG crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency, officials said on Saturday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to initial reports, the pilots were not hurt in the incident. Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault.
> 
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/1187587/paf-fighter-jet-crashes-khyber-agency/


Rip
Actially pilot is shaheed 
We need to keep there maintenance well and to be grounded asap jf replace them


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## hassamun

May Allah give Patience to the Pilot's family....Truly a tragedy...


X-2. said:


> Rip
> Actially pilot is shaheed
> We need to keep there maintenance well and to be grounded asap jf replace them



We shouldn't jump to conclusions...Proper investigation shall be done...and we shall know of the outcome...If there is a major problem only then the aircraft shall be phased out...


----------



## X-2.

hassamun said:


> May Allah give Patience to the Pilot's family....Truly a tragedy...
> 
> 
> We shouldn't jump to conclusions...Proper investigation shall be done...and we shall know of the outcome...If there is a major problem only then the aircraft shall be phased out...


There are couple of cases with f 7"
I didn't said to ground right now ,all of them should need well maintenance and need to investigate thoroughly as it's not first case sir... we have lost the pilot as well


----------



## hassamun

X-2. said:


> There are couple of cases with f 7"
> I didn't said to ground right now ,all of them should need well maintenance and need to investigate thoroughly as it's not first case sir... we have lost the pilot as well


This is the F-7PG, an improved version of the F-7....


----------



## X-2.

hassamun said:


> This is the F-7PG, an improved version of the F-7....


Advance or more advanced if has some issues it still mark with questions 
So first need to do through investigation then we can come to conclusion


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## Hallian_Khan

My his soul rest in peace....


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## Feelings

RIP brave pilot


----------



## Thunder Bolt

Flight Lieutenant Omer Shahzad S/O Air Commodore Asif Shahzad embraced Shahadat. !!!

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## War Thunder

one jet down indians 
More visits to Lord Krishna and his sudharshan should o it


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## Side-Winder



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## Areesh

RIP.

These F7s and Mirages need to be retired as soon as possible. Ps or PGs they are all crap.


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## G0dfather

War Thunder said:


> one jet down indians
> More visits to Lord Krishna and his sudharshan should do it


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## messiach

Very unfortunate incident.May Allah SWT forgive him.
Engine fire can be catastrophic in a short time. WP-7 uses GH46 HT alloy and GH 33A heat resistance alloys for turbine disc over-expansion and afterburner nozzle closure preventing heat buildup and premature shutdown. This should not have happened. Probably maintenance was the issue. Investigate.


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## Panther 57

Zarvan said:


> Pilot was martyred unfortunately. We need to ejection system of these F-7 PG and also Mirages


If I am not wrong all our aircraft are equipped with MB


----------



## Thunder Bolt



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## razgriz19

Over 300 aircraft took part in last highmark exercise, this year will be the same if not more taking part. This incident had a high probability of taking place.

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## AKD

R.I.P. i hope propee investigation would be done to prevent these kind of accidents



War Thunder said:


> one jet down indians
> More visits to Lord Krishna and his sudharshan should o it


Why drag India into this???
You are Pathetic

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## razgriz19

And airplanes can live long for decades, if their airframe and engine is designed to do so. PAF cannot be legally flying flying if they the airframe is past it's life, and they don't. They have retired the ones that were past their life. Obviously they become more prone to failure as they age, and that's why maintenance practices also change with time, some airframe require extended inspections on much shorter intervals. Highmark is meant to duplicate war time scenarios, meaning the aircraft would start taking part in it's pristine condition but as the exercise progress they would only get inspected for a shorter period of time as they would in wartime.

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## baal tu kela

the more you fly, the more the jets will tend to malfunction.we(ind and pak) are no developed countries nor do we have the full industrial base/money to produce and procure every spare for buttersmooth operation. If you fly the jets like commercial plane, straight and smooth, that wont increase the probability of malfunction but will affect the pilots fighting skill; if you do combat manuver more often the result will be viceversa. The current situation is exactly like that. Due to operation highmark, the paf planes are subjected to much stress. Hence the accident.

Add their age as an additive factor

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## monitor

Side-Winder said:


> A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter jet F7-PG crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency, officials said on Saturday.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> According to initial reports, the pilots were not hurt in the incident. Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault.
> 
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/1187587/paf-fighter-jet-crashes-khyber-agency/


BBC Bangla reports pilot is dead. If true very sad indeed

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## tarrar

PAF seriously needs to ground the old dying fleet & replace them. I don't know why J10B was shelved by PAF, they could had been used to replace most of the dying fleet of PAF. Now we are also well aware on the status of SU35, we won't be seeing them in PAF colors, so PAF needs to work on options in hand.


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## litman

really really sad news. i knew him since he was 3 yr old.

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## LadyFinger

I seriously hate this, these training flights killing people. What the hell! If the machinery of these aircrafts is so rusty why doesn't PAF get rid of them. Why do we have to hear such news time and again and all these deaths of pilots?


Devil Soul said:


> *Pilot killed as PAF fighter jet crashes in Khyber Agency*
> By Iftikhar Firdous
> Published: September 24, 2016
> 342SHARES
> SHARE TWEET EMAIL
> A pilot of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was killed on Saturday as his fighter jet crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency.
> 
> “The pilot of the aircraft Flt Lt Omer Shazad sustained fatal injuries,” the military’s media wing ISPR said. The PAF aircraft was on a routine operational training mission.
> 
> “No loss of civilian life and property has been reported on ground,” the statement added. A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident.
> 
> Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault. Speaking to_The Express Tribune, _a senior official of the political administration said, “A team of Swat scouts and Levis officials have been sent to the site of the incident.”
> 
> *JF-17 inducted in multirole squadron*
> 
> Last year, a PAF fighter jet F7-PG crashed near Mastung during what officials described as a routine training operation. According to a spokesperson for PAF’s Samungli Airbase in Quetta, “The F7-PG fighter jet was on a routine training mission when its engine caught fire and crashed on a fray near Mastung.”

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## kaykay

Tipu7 said:


> I think its first air crash this year, past year there was one crash too.
> Both were F7PG.
> One crash per year is definitely not bad record ............
> Compared to our neighbor who lost 2 aircrafts in a month and one barely survived few days ago


There was no need to compare since India uses more fighters. Anyway you lost 3 fighters last year not one. We too.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

May God give strength to the family of pilot. 

Eurofighter and new F18s also do crash. The PG is relatively a newer airframe. Flying aircrafts is one hell of a thing , a decimals error and....

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## Mughal-Prince

Windjammer said:


> Guys do consider how many hundreds of extra sorties are currently taking place . Some technical snag is bound to hit somewhere.
> 
> View attachment 337467



That was the gut feeling I was having for last few days because exercises are underway and border is hot too so I was expecting some news as we all know that we are flying Mirages and F7-PG which are relatively old airframes then the other ones.


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## New Resolve

Tragic loss, we really need to expedite JF17 inductions which has an excellant flight safety record compared to the outdated F7's. Its been a long time since the last JF17 squadron was inducted, the rate is slow.


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## Rupeshkumar

Tragic. RIP to the departed soul !

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## shah1398

This exercise is all about near to war time operations where extensive sorties are generated day n night so even if *GOD FORBID* we loose 1,2 more of our birds then its pretty much normal with such extensive operations (in case of war) like @Windjammer Sir pointed out. May ALLAH accept the Shahadat of the Pilot n grant him highest places in Jannat-ul-Firdous. AAMEEN. Indeed he was a good lad.



LadyFinger said:


> I seriously hate this, these training flights killing people. What the hell! If the machinery of these aircrafts is so rusty why doesn't PAF get rid of them. Why do we have to hear such news time and again and all these deaths of pilots?



Plz consider what I pointed above.


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## Willis Carroll

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What do you expect from antique mig-21s and mirages from the 70s.


How many pilots where present in the plane???


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Willis Carroll said:


> How many pilots where present in the plane???


1


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## Willis Carroll

Oooh it was sad to hear the dead of the pilot.

The plane looks obsolete . Pakistan should upgrade them or change them

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Flying coffins !!! PAF f-7 crash in 2013

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Flt/LT Umar Shahzad

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## Sine Nomine

Sarge said:


> @Windjammer
> 
> what kind of faults is F-7 P/PG prone to?


Hydraulics failure,engine catching fire,engine stall and aircraft suddenly stops responding to control.

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## The Sandman

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajiun

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## cerberus

Why crash was happened resulted in death bird hit


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## Humble Analyst

Windjammer said:


> Here please enlighten yourself with what's called aerobatics....vertical charlie is aircraft just pulling up away from the venue.


MashaAllah the fitness of the pilot is great. He was going between aeorobatics without time lag or distance and his orientation was superb.



IceCold said:


> Can anybody explain why even after the presence of ejection seat did the pilot got killed? Did he not ejected or was it the angle of ejection or the terrain itself or the ejection seat itself it the main reason which resulted in the loss of a precious life and an asset of our country?
> May Allah SWT give him a place in heaven and sabar to his family members. We all grieve over the loss of a son of soil. Our salute to the men in uniform who lay their lives so that we can live peacefully.


There can be multiple reasons, speed of plane at the time of ejection, altitude, the type of incident (fire etc.) close parachute landing to debri, parachute getting damaged due debri or fire, chute not fully deploying, canopy not clearing fully, the plane altitude and orientation combination, faulty ejection seat or faulty chute, late ejection due to lack of time or delay in ejection there are so many and ejection has limitations too especially speed of plane at the time of ejection is critical. Allah mughfirat karay aur ghar walon ka maamla acha ho Aameen.


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## GumNaam

Inna lillahi wa inna ilauhi raajioon


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## Windjammer

A very tragic loss indeed, 130 GDP sword of honour winner. R.I.P brother.

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## RedHulk

Stop playing with the lives of Pilots. Just ground these out dated planes with out telling any one. Pakistan can buy thunders from china to fill the gap on urgent basis.


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## Peaceful Civilian

Sad incident .
RIP.....


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## LOGICAL BOSSS

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1187587/paf-fighter-jet-crashes-khyber-agency/

A pilot of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was killed on Saturday as his fighter jet crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency.



“The pilot of the aircraft Flt Lt Omer Shazad sustained fatal injuries,” the military’s media wing ISPR said. The PAF aircraft was on a routine operational training mission.





Wreckage of the PAF aircraft crashed in Jamrud. PHOTO: EXPRESS

“No loss of civilian life and property has been reported on ground,” the statement added. A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident.





Wreckage of the PAF aircraft crashed in Jamrud. PHOTO: EXPRESS

Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault. Speaking to_The Express Tribune, _a senior official of the political administration said, “A team of Swat scouts and Levis officials have been sent to the site of the incident.”

*JF-17 inducted in multirole squadron*

Last year, a PAF fighter jet F7-PG crashed near Mastung during what officials described as a routine training operation. According to a spokesperson for PAF’s Samungli Airbase in Quetta, “The F7-PG fighter jet was on a routine training mission when its engine caught fire and crashed on a fray near Mastung.”


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## Humble Analyst

RedHulk said:


> Stop playing with the lives of Pilots. Just ground these out dated planes with out telling any one. Pakistan can buy thunders from china to fill the gap on urgent basis.


This is not an old plane


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## The Eagle

CHI RULES said:


> A platform inducted in 2000 how it is old?



Meant by Tech Generation.


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## Ahsen Tariq

Some body please tell 
*Mitsubishi F-2* is that Replica of F-16


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## illuminatidinesh

IceCold said:


> Can anybody explain why even after the presence of ejection seat did the pilot got killed? Did he not ejected or was it the angle of ejection or the terrain itself or the ejection seat itself it the main reason which resulted in the loss of a precious life and an asset of our country?
> May Allah SWT give him a place in heaven and sabar to his family members. We all grieve over the loss of a son of soil. Our salute to the men in uniform who lay their lives so that we can live peacefully.


Unfortunately its not 100% fool proof, Almost always the pilot sustains some sort of Chronic or Acute injuries when ejecting, everything depends on SPEED < ANGLE<ALTITUDE and the TERRAIN where he lands. 
RIP to him.

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## GuardianRED

Ahsen Tariq said:


> Some body please tell
> *Mitsubishi F-2* is that Replica of F-16


 No. Though they look the same , the F-2 is an enlarged version of the F-16.


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## DayDreamerz

Side-Winder said:


> A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter jet F7-PG crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency, officials said on Saturday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to initial reports, the pilots were not hurt in the incident. Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault.
> 
> According to Their Great Skills if luck dosent go very unfavourable then there is nothing witch can hurt all these NOORS .......MAY THEY LIVE FOR EVER ...........same way cant understand why ??? on roads while they can hold the situation from their Respective places ........If they can figure out T T P in th


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## Aero

Ahsen Tariq said:


> Some body please tell
> *Mitsubishi F-2* is that Replica of F-16


Not exactly ,you can say it is a development from F16


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## Feelings




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## Indian Jatt

Tipu7 said:


> I think its first air crash this year, past year there was one crash too.
> Both were F7PG.
> One crash per year is definitely not bad record ............
> Compared to our neighbor who lost 2 aircrafts in a month and one barely survived few days ago


Indian airspace>Pakistani airspace
IAF fighters fly more sorties, in different environments and maybe sometimes human error that includes pilots to mechanics and maintenance team.....
Indian coastline >Pakistani coastline
Ships, planes are machines that get old and wear out upon usage, you cannot expect a sprinter to run a marathon....

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## Ghazwa e Hind

Pilot martyred.... May Allah give sabr e jameel to his family

F-7PGs and Mirages supported PAF beyond their capacities. Pakistani government should immediately issue extra funds for the expansion of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and installation of more assembly lines for JF-17 Thunder. We should immediately increase the production of Thunders from 16 currently to 25 inorder to induct 250 jets ASAP.

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## DayDreamerz

unBear Able Loss may he Gdets the higest of jannah ......and live for ever their .....but must not happen ...ever again ....ground them SIRS G ......PILOTS ARE TOO RARE ........along every one else in Army ........Hope the weather of the country will change soon............... you might try every police station for a check for T T P ......put real ones in the places of T T P rest they will look after ........why to play high cards of trumps when lowest can work ....i mean they can make civilians work in no second .......but Rangers and you must be checking them too........Diamonds cannot be wasted like this .....


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## raj76

War Thunder said:


> one jet down indians
> More visits to Lord Krishna and his sudharshan should o it


stupid trolling uncalled for

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## Super Falcon

Ye


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What do you expect from antique mig-21s and mirages from the 70s.


Yes PAF has to get rid of these antiques specifically F7 and mirages

Alone mirages we have around 80. to 100

induction of SU 35 will get job done

F 16. Usa
JF 17 china
SU 35 Russia

Good balance three powers in one hand


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## Knight Rider

F-7 PG's are not that old aircrafts they were inducted in 2002 . They are newer than the F-16A/B's. How they keep crashing in Mountainous Terrains ????  This is the third crash in Mountainous Terrain.

Is something wrong with the Radar Altimeter ????

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## salarsikander

The real story was IAF went with their special sneaky squad in close knit tight formation, terrain hugging. PAF was on routine exercise and did not detect the threat. Then in a press of button phoff the jet was shot down. PAF was alerted and sent their jets on hot scramble, As soon as they were in air they realized that wing commander was sunny deol and second in command was Sai ali khan, Upon seeing this they had to call it a day off


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## LOGICAL BOSSS

Knight Rider said:


> F-7 PG's are not that old aircrafts they were inducted in 2002 . They are newer than the F-16A/B's. How they keep crashing in Mountainous Terrains ????  This is the third crash?


Because they are Chinese product, usually have half life then original ones.
Saying abt Chinese: chale tu Chand tak, nahi tu jamin par


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## Raider 21

salarsikander said:


> The real story was IAF went with their special sneaky squad in close knit tight formation, terrain hugging. PAF was on routine exercise and did not detect the threat. Then in a press of button phoff the jet was shot down. PAF was alerted and sent their jets on hot scramble, As soon as they were in air they realized that wing commander was sunny deol and second in command was Sai ali khan, Upon seeing this they had to call it a day off


An aviator died and you're cool with playing a sarcasm game ??!!!

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## baqai

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un


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## illuminatidinesh

salarsikander said:


> The real story was IAF went with their special sneaky squad in close knit tight formation, terrain hugging. PAF was on routine exercise and did not detect the threat. Then in a press of button phoff the jet was shot down. PAF was alerted and sent their jets on hot scramble, As soon as they were in air they realized that wing commander was sunny deol and second in command was Sai ali khan, Upon seeing this they had to call it a day off


Pathetic attempt noob, be it a PAF or IAF pilot he died doing something which needs appreciation . 
Do you even realize u are typing these words safely because he ensured dying?

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## salarsikander

illuminatidinesh said:


> Pathetic attempt noob, be it a PAF or IAF pilot he died doing something which needs appreciation .
> Do you even realize u are typing these words safely because he ensured dying?


hey cut it out. No ones needs your fake sympathy, I just missed the updates news that he was killed in accident !


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## illuminatidinesh

salarsikander said:


> hey cut it out. No ones needs your fake sympathy, I just missed the updates news that he was killed in accident !


Hey noob you are posting in 8th page of the thread and say u missed it. Perhaps someone teach u something called comprehension , besides I have no sympathy for the pilot only respect. Pity there people on both sides of border.

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## salarsikander

illuminatidinesh said:


> Hey noob you are posting in 8th page of the thread and say u missed it. Perhaps someone teach u something called comprehension , besides I have no sympathy for the pilot only respect. Pity there people on both sides of border.


Mind your tongue before you get reported idiot !

As I Said I read the first page and posted the reply there


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## Michael Corleone

These Chinese shit always crash. Countless times in Bangladesh. Not undermining China's manufacturing capability but why most fighter crashes involve f-7?


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## cerberus

Mohammed Khaled said:


> These Chinese shit always crash. Countless times in Bangladesh. Not undermining China's manufacturing capability but why most fighter crashes involve f-7?


BS If Mechanical failure happens Pilot would have ejected I think its bird Hit


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## Michael Corleone

cerberus said:


> BS If Mechanical failure happens Pilot would have ejected I think its bird Hit


If it was hit... won't we have heard more about it already?


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## cerberus

Mohammed Khaled said:


> If it was hit... won't we have heard more about it already?


So why the reason Pilot not ejected


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## TOPGUN

Pilots are safe thank GOD , shit happens its a machine and can be replaced a life can't.

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## cloud4000

TOPGUN said:


> Pilots are safe thank GOD , shit happens its a machine and can be replaced a life can't.



How soon before pilots are made redundant given the pace of technology? Drones are becoming commonplace. Sooner or later drones will be take up air defense duties with little or no human intervention.


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## Michael Corleone

TOPGUN said:


> Pilots are safe thank GOD , shit happens its a machine and can be replaced a life can't.


Alhamdulilah.

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## YeBeWarned

TOPGUN said:


> Pilots are safe thank GOD , shit happens its a machine and can be replaced a life can't.



PAC needs to PACE up the Thunder production line ... Pilots are Valuable Assets we cant just risk them like that ..

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## nana41

M.SAAD said:


> F7? PG? What junk.!!


This is what the nation could afford to buy with whatever was left in the coffers after the loot by zardari,chaudheris,shareef and their cronies.


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## ziaulislam

Ghazwa e Hind said:


> Pilot martyred.... May Allah give sabr e jameel to his family
> 
> F-7PGs and Mirages supported PAF beyond their capacities. Pakistani government should immediately issue extra funds for the expansion of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and installation of more assembly lines for JF-17 Thunder. We should immediately increase the production of Thunders from 16 currently to 25 inorder to induct 250 jets ASAP.


if indeed 250 are going to be inducted, as of now we would barely make 150 for paf


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

No worries planes can always be replaced


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## fatman17

F7PG crashes in khyber agency due to technical malfunction.


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## fatman17

Flt.Lt Umar Shahzad Shaheed


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## graphican

*إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ
*
We were told Pilot was safe. Is that a new incident?


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## MastanKhan

Wingman said:


> إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ
> .
> They were in the Final stage of the Mission, Coming to Land, air craft developed Some technical Issues, she Initiated ejection Procedure as she was sitting in the rear cockpit, ejection Went fine but Something Happened to her during ejection as she was found unconscious and died during medical Treatment.. S/L Saqib sustained Minor injuries



Hi,

How could she be sitting in the back seat----the back seat is for the instructor---.

I am pretty sure that the back seater ejects first and then the front seat---otherwise the back seater would be burnt by the exhaust.


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## Signalian

قناص said:


> Hydraulics failure,engine catching fire,engine stall and aircraft suddenly stops responding to control.



A hydraulic system failure has some stages. In the minimal failure, the pilot may not manoeuvre left or right, the max failure will also decline ability to make the a/c climb. But this can be overcome by use of aircraft engine, by decreasing or increasing power, the pilot can manage to land the plane atleast. 
Is hydraulic failure dependant on oil used? the pistons wear out?

engine stalling and catching fire is a mechanical problem? what kind of engines are used in F-7's?

@Nilgiri , your insight too plz.


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## ziaulislam

i think the f-7s needs to be grounded ASAP,keep the mirages, thunder and f-16s, they need get their hands on some used f-16s in numbers like yesterday


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## Ghazwa e Hind

ziaulislam said:


> if indeed 250 are going to be inducted, as of now we would barely make 150 for paf


It will be nothing less than 250. Wait and watch!


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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> i think the f-7s needs to be grounded ASAP,keep the mirages, thunder and f-16s, they need get their hands on some used f-16s in numbers like yesterday



This was a PG not the F7P which need to be grounded soonest.


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## Thunder Bolt



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## Sine Nomine

Sarge said:


> A hydraulic system failure has some stages. In the minimal failure, the pilot may not manoeuvre left or right, the max failure will also decline ability to make the a/c climb. But this can be overcome by use of aircraft engine, by decreasing or increasing power, the pilot can manage to land the plane atleast.
> Is hydraulic failure dependant on oil used? the pistons wear out?
> 
> engine stalling and catching fire is a mechanical problem? what kind of engines are used in F-7's?
> 
> @Nilgiri , your insight too plz.


F-7 uses LMC (Liyang) WP7B(BM) turbojet (43.2 kN; 9,700 lb st dry, 59.8 kN; 13,448 lb st with afterburning) in F-7M; 
LMC WP13 turbojet (40.2 kN; 9,039 lb st dry, 64.7 kN; 14,550 lb st with afterburning) in J-7 III/F7-3; WP13F (44.1 kN; 9,921 lb st dry, 64.7 kN; 14,550 lb st with afterburning) in F-7PG.

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## salarsikander

illuminatidinesh said:


> Again Noob read before U post. U call me idiot and U wanna report? U troll and U wanna report? Go ahead do it....
> Now shoo off and dont let the door hit u.


Do I care what you think ?? All the members are well aware of my credibility here, so bugger off


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## Nilgiri

Sarge said:


> A hydraulic system failure has some stages. In the minimal failure, the pilot may not manoeuvre left or right, the max failure will also decline ability to make the a/c climb. But this can be overcome by use of aircraft engine, by decreasing or increasing power, the pilot can manage to land the plane atleast.
> Is hydraulic failure dependant on oil used? the pistons wear out?
> 
> engine stalling and catching fire is a mechanical problem? what kind of engines are used in F-7's?
> 
> @Nilgiri , your insight too plz.



It depends on how serious the hydraulic failure is. If its a complete failure, the pilot will be trained to do emergency procedures....but he will need enough altitude for this to work...2 engines also really helps here to do throttle based yawing. If partial flight controls are available, thats also good too...some aircraft have redundancies (i.e physical mechanical systems) but they generally need the a/c to be flying as slow as possible (without stall) so the pilot can operate them given the dynamic pressures involved.

Some oils/fluids are better than others for long term performance, but it should not be a major issue....as long as routine maintenance is done.

Now if the engine fire is what prompted the hydraulic failure...then that is generally very bad news because a serious engine issue + loss of hydraulic pressure means the aircraft will be completely uncontrollable even theoretically. Thats when you have to bail out if its a single engine aircraft, no real choice there.

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## Basel




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## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> It depends on how serious the hydraulic failure is. If its a complete failure, the pilot will be trained to do emergency procedures....but he will need enough altitude for this to work...2 engines also really helps here to do throttle based yawing. If partial flight controls are available, thats also good too...some aircraft have redundancies (i.e physical mechanical systems) but they generally need the a/c to be flying as slow as possible (without stall) so the pilot can operate them given the dynamic pressures involved.


I am not well versed on F-7 hydraulics and control systems. They are same ones as Mig-21 of IAF? or completely different?



> Some oils/fluids are better than others for long term performance, but it should not be a major issue....as long as routine maintenance is done.


Considering PAF maintenance standards, quality of oils shouldnt be an issue.



> Now if the engine fire is what prompted the hydraulic failure...then that is generally very bad news because a serious engine issue + loss of hydraulic pressure means the aircraft will be completely uncontrollable even theoretically. Thats when you have to bail out if its a single engine aircraft, no real choice there.


WP13F engine seems a chinese engine. I think these can be overhauled at PAC.


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## Windjammer

wiseone2 said:


> F-7s are good for base air defense
> it won't survive a shoot out with Rafales


Why do you guys talk present scenario with something at least five years away.
On the contrary one could argue what chance does India's present fleet has against the latest F-16s.

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## Windjammer

wiseone2 said:


> two or three Flankers could easily handle one F-16. The IAF has the numbers to handle the F-16s


Well they certainly didn't fancy their chances in 2008....did they.

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## litman

only the lucky ones and chosen ones are selected for the honor of shahadat


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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> This was a PG not the F7P which need to be grounded soonest.


PG were meant for 20 years too,not more, i think keeping them beyond 2020 would create issues as well
airforce needs to be lean and lethal rather than old and bulky..


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## nang2

thank God the pilot is safe.



nang2 said:


> thank God the pilot is safe.


Gosh, pilot didn't make it. May Allah bless his soul.


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## Nilgiri

Sarge said:


> I am not well versed on F-7 hydraulics and control systems. They are same ones as Mig-21 of IAF? or completely different?



Not 100% sure...but they should be quite similar since they come from same base heritage. I doubt the Chinese back then saw fit to change much in the reverse engineering of that. Dont mess with the crucial life-dependent stuff unless you really know what you are doing and have time and money to do extensive testing. 

Now you can always add more stuff on top (like say wire based actuators for redundancy if you are willing to take a hit on the weight and volume penalties (if its even possible to do so in the first place).

A somewhat interesting story is that they did this for the original B-52 when it was first introduced as the hydrualics felt too "Easy" for the pilots that had converted from WW2 era bombers....so they figured hey its extra redundancy anyway....and put in mechnanical actuators as well both to toughen up the feel and also act as backup.

As pilots eventually rotated through the generations, they changed back to hydraulic only with an upgrade and added redundancies based on that. Its always a lot easier and forgiving on a large aircraft when you have space and weight to work with.

On a fighter jet or small aircraft in general, its a premium....given the performance envelope is quite sensitive.



Sarge said:


> WP13F engine seems a chinese engine. I think these can be overhauled at PAC.





Sarge said:


> Considering PAF maintenance standards, quality of oils shouldnt be an issue.



Yah I don't think its a maintenance based issue at all....given PAF and PAC are professionally run. It is probably a one-off unique thing given the age of the airframes/engines and certain small factors all coinciding by random chance. It will need to be investigated to see if any issue exists beyond age related general attrition.

Basically past a certain age, almost all aircraft (esp performance/payload based) are somewhat living on borrowed time. A dedicated maintenance and inspection/overhaul regimen can mitigate it....even substantially (though it depends, and the cost/benefit has to be analysed especially as time progresses)....but the basic issue will always be there given things like micro cracks, corrosion voids in inaccessible places (and complete change of these will probably cost more than just buying a new a/c).

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## GDP Adil Khan Niazi

Shaheed ki jo mout hai wo qoum ki hayaat hai. In the near future if i would have to choose between ejection and getting Shaheed, i would definitely wish to Shaheed without thinking second time. Yeh baray hoslay ki baten hotii hai, har kisi k naseeb mein nae hota Shaheed hona. But definitely Pakistani peoples and the Pakistan Armed Forces salutes all the Martyred who sacrifices their lives for this country. Pakistan Zindaabaad.

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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> PG were meant for 20 years too,not more, i think keeping them beyond 2020 would create issues as well
> airforce needs to be lean and lethal rather than old and bulky..



All the best laid out plans are never achieved. The air force modernisation plan has encountered many delays.

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## Devil Soul

*Unmanned PAF aircraft crashes near Mianwali*
SYED SAMMER ABBAS — UPDATED 24 MINUTES AGO
WHATSAPP
 7 COMMENTS
 PRINT


LAHORE: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) crashed near Mianwali on Monday.

A PAF spokesman confirmed the UAV was on a routine training mission when it crashed.

No loss of life or property has been reported as yet, he said.

A Board of Enquiry was ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the crash.

This is the second PAF aircraft which has crashed over the past week. PAF Flight Lieutenant Omer Shahzad died in an air crash in Khyber Agency's Jamrud tehsil on Saturday when the F-7PG he was flying encountered a technical fault and crashed.


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## nadeemkhan110

what is the name of this UAV?


----------



## graphican

Could be Falco.


----------



## X-2.

Man!!!why couple of technical issues in r recent day.. hope paf will overcome these loses


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## Tipu7




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## The Eagle

@Irfan Baloch @WAJsal @mods

Kindly merge the under mentioned thread here being similar in subject.

https://defence.pk/threads/paf-drone-crashed-in-mianwali-geo-news.451538/#post-8732581

Thanks.


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## Path-Finder

assan leh ke jana we tano Mianwali

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## Mughal-Prince

graphican said:


> Could be Falco.



Wing shape determines its not a Falco UAV I am pretty sure. Its wing pattern more look like a Burraq. So I believe it's a Burraq.


----------



## GDP Adil Khan Niazi

nadeemkhan110 said:


> what is the name of this UAV?



nae matlab k ho kyaa raha ha ??
2nd air crash of Pakistan Airforce within 4-5 days,
now i think PAF should really took this matter seriously

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## Mughal-Prince

GDP Adil Khan Niazi said:


> nae matlab k ho kyaa raha ha ??
> 2nd air crash of Pakistan Airforce within 4-5 days,
> now i think PAF should really took this matter seriously
> View attachment 338232



This is not an official picture of accident but it seems like some V tail UAV which we don't have in our arsenal.

That is right PAF should took this seriously.

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## GDP Adil Khan Niazi

Mughal-Prince said:


> This is not an official picture of accident but it seems like some V tail UAV which we don't have in our arsenal.
> 
> That is right PAF should took this seriously.



Well i don't know if it is the official picture or not , i get this picture Via Express News but i'm terrified from this news because in an interval of 4-5 days hardly PAF has faced 2nd plane crash and if that is going to happen on regular basis than from where the hell should Pakistan fight if any sort of war on terror situation is imposed on us. So, i think Pakistan Air Force should take it seriously and look into the matter more carefully. This is not just about the plane crash , this is also about the number of planes getting one less day after day.


----------



## Darth Vader

Nothing to worry about as For people going Nuts uav are not that reliable for now that we compare them with planes 
Main reason could be since Pakistan and India are on high alert and assets are being over the clock so higher sortie rate
Mistakes do happen some time ita human error some time its mechinal error

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## cloud4000

X-2. said:


> Man!!!why couple of technical issues in r recent day.. hope paf will overcome these loses



Strange how these accidents happen in a short period of time. It's happens to air forces the world over.


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## surya kiran

Mughal-Prince said:


> This is not an official picture of accident but it seems like some V tail UAV which we don't have in our arsenal.
> 
> That is right PAF should took this seriously.



That looks more like an American Reaper. Nothing like the one in the first video.


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## X-2.

cloud4000 said:


> Strange how these accidents happen in a short period of time. It's happens to air forces the world over.


Yes but paf is more professional and technical advance but in these days it's faced few errors


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## Mughal-Prince

surya kiran said:


> That looks more like an American Reaper. Nothing like the one in the first video.



True I believe they have taken a file photo to represent an UAV and they just put up which ever the first picture of a crashed UAV they have found. There is a Chinese UAV which is somewhat is equal to the size of Reaper and has a VTail so its a remote possibility if its under testing but its just a speculation.


----------



## surya kiran

Mughal-Prince said:


> True I believe they have taken a file photo to represent an UAV and they just put up which ever the first picture of a crashed UAV they have found. There is a Chinese UAV which is somewhat is equal to the size of Reaper and has a VTail so its a remote possibility if its under testing but its just a speculation.



Nah. I know the one you are talking about, but, that has 2 more horizontal tailplanes and the position of that jet intake is also not right. So most probably dumb journos picking up any uav photo.


----------



## That Guy

Aircraft crashes are exactly why drones are starting to be used heavily by nations such as Pakistan. If a manned plane crashes, you lose the aircraft and potentially a pilot, but if you lose a drone aircraft, other than a financial loss, you don't lose anything.

A few crashed UAVs are probably within the acceptable margin of error, especially since Pakistan has been using them so extensively in its war against terrorism, and to guard the borders on its east and west.

Having said all that, Pakistan really should try and hurry the process of replacing its old fleet of F-7s and Mirages. with the thunder. The F-7s should have retired a long time ago, and with Pakistan facing a short fall of up to 190 planes by 2020, it needs to make sure that its capabilities remain in tact.

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## American Pakistani

Good that no life loss.

Through investigation is required as to why 2 failures in short period of time.


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## SQ8

American Pakistani said:


> Good that no life loss.
> 
> Through investigation is required as to why 2 failures in short period of time.


How about an operational tempo that has PAF pilots near insomnia and on the edge. The number of sorties being flown and hours logged is almost equal to the flying done in the past 6 months. Flight safety is paramount, but so is Murphy's law.

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## war&peace

nadeemkhan110 said:


> what is the name of this UAV?


The video is really crappy...low resolution and poor camera work.


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## SQ8

Nilgiri said:


> Not 100% sure...but they should be quite similar since they come from same base heritage. I doubt the Chinese back then saw fit to change much in the reverse engineering of that. Dont mess with the crucial life-dependent stuff unless you really know what you are doing and have time and money to do extensive testing.
> 
> Now you can always add more stuff on top (like say wire based actuators for redundancy if you are willing to take a hit on the weight and volume penalties (if its even possible to do so in the first place).
> 
> A somewhat interesting story is that they did this for the original B-52 when it was first introduced as the hydrualics felt too "Easy" for the pilots that had converted from WW2 era bombers....so they figured hey its extra redundancy anyway....and put in mechnanical actuators as well both to toughen up the feel and also act as backup.
> 
> As pilots eventually rotated through the generations, they changed back to hydraulic only with an upgrade and added redundancies based on that. Its always a lot easier and forgiving on a large aircraft when you have space and weight to work with.
> 
> On a fighter jet or small aircraft in general, its a premium....given the performance envelope is quite sensitive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yah I don't think its a maintenance based issue at all....given PAF and PAC are professionally run. It is probably a one-off unique thing given the age of the airframes/engines and certain small factors all coinciding by random chance. It will need to be investigated to see if any issue exists beyond age related general attrition.
> 
> Basically past a certain age, almost all aircraft (esp performance/payload based) are somewhat living on borrowed time. A dedicated maintenance and inspection/overhaul regimen can mitigate it....even substantially (though it depends, and the cost/benefit has to be analysed especially as time progresses)....but the basic issue will always be there given things like micro cracks, corrosion voids in inaccessible places (and complete change of these will probably cost more than just buying a new a/c).



How about something called Murphy's law?


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## TaimiKhan

Its either Shahpar or Burraq.


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## SQ8

TaimiKhan said:


> Its either Shahpar or Burraq.


PAF -> Falco or Shahpar.. 

Interesting note about the idiots in the less than astute western media and the expected Indian media.. the Shahpar has nothing to do with anything Chinese. I saw the first prototype myself more than a decade ago as mentioned earlier somewhere; In the basement of a KFC in the Defence area..some would remember that in 1998 there were 3 or 4 KFCs in total.

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## TaimiKhan

Oscar said:


> PAF -> Falco or Shahpar..
> 
> Interesting note about the idiots in the less than astute western media and the expected Indian media.. the Shahpar has nothing to do with anything Chinese. I saw the first prototype myself more than a decade ago as mentioned earlier somewhere; In the basement of a KFC in the Defence area..some would remember that in 1998 there were 3 or 4 KFCs in total.



Yups, Shahpar has no Chinese equivalent. Its totally inhouse production.

The big wreckage pic wing design is more corresponding to Shahpar plus at one place it shoes what looks like to be the unique wing design which we see on Shahpar or Burraq.

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## Salza

More extensive sorties and flying hours because of on going PAF exercise. The operational capabilities of all the planes,drones will be 4-5 times more than normal days. Problems, shortcomings will be exposed and that's what exercises/testing is all about.


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## SQ8

TaimiKhan said:


> Yups, Shahpar has no Chinese equivalent. Its totally inhouse production.
> 
> The big wreckage pic wing design is more corresponding to Shahpar plus at one place it shoes what looks like to be the unique wingtip which we see on Shahpar or Burraq.


Actually, the founder of IDS where Shahpar and other UAVs( along with a host of backdoor dealings with Israel and other arms vendors) was done was inspired by the Rutan canard designs. He also built something that would not fly, which is chief pilot who I last heard owns a RC shop named Hobby World(_not to be confused with the lahore and Isb based Hobby Lobby_)in DHA Phase II Karachi said wont..and it did not. 

They also were developing a AAM seeker, but then it was mostly guys in coveralls .. all the way back in 1998.

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## Nilgiri

Oscar said:


> How about something called Murphy's law?



That is always somewhat applicable for sure...we will need to wait and see what the investigation ascertains.

The law worded as it is ....is a bit too absolute for me....but the concept in relation to probability summation through say the swiss cheese model is definitely valid....especially if the time in operation is long enough in relation to the nature of the summation curve.


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## Bilal Khan 777

Oscar said:


> PAF -> Falco or Shahpar..
> 
> Interesting note about the idiots in the less than astute western media and the expected Indian media.. the Shahpar has nothing to do with anything Chinese. I saw the first prototype myself more than a decade ago as mentioned earlier somewhere; In the basement of a KFC in the Defence area..some would remember that in 1998 there were 3 or 4 KFCs in total.



Its a Falco. Obvious from the broken intake which is unique for the zanzoterra engine.



Oscar said:


> Actually, the founder of IDS where Shahpar and other UAVs( along with a host of backdoor dealings with Israel and other arms vendors) was done was inspired by the Rutan canard designs. He also built something that would not fly, which is chief pilot who I last heard owns a RC shop named Hobby World(_not to be confused with the lahore and Isb based Hobby Lobby_)in DHA Phase II Karachi said wont..and it did not.
> 
> They also were developing a AAM seeker, but then it was mostly guys in coveralls .. all the way back in 1998.



Shahpar is an AWC design, not IDS. The designer is a professor in one of the AF universities. Still has many issues but moving forward. It is not a pirate of Israeli models. Any aeroform can be chosen to build a vehicle.

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## PAK_MyRoots

Devil Soul said:


> *Unmanned PAF aircraft crashes near Mianwali*
> SYED SAMMER ABBAS — UPDATED 24 MINUTES AGO
> WHATSAPP
> 7 COMMENTS
> PRINT
> 
> 
> LAHORE: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) crashed near Mianwali on Monday.
> 
> A PAF spokesman confirmed the UAV was on a routine training mission when it crashed.
> 
> No loss of life or property has been reported as yet, he said.
> 
> A Board of Enquiry was ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the crash.
> 
> This is the second PAF aircraft which has crashed over the past week. PAF Flight Lieutenant Omer Shahzad died in an air crash in Khyber Agency's Jamrud tehsil on Saturday when the F-7PG he was flying encountered a technical fault and crashed.


sad, but chuloo no problem... ghirtay hein sheh sawaar he medaanay jung mien.... 
NEHI TERA NISHAYMUN KUSRAY SULTANI K GOMBUD PUR, THO SHAHEEN HIA BESEERA KUR MODI KI CHITANOO PUR....


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## Hellfire

American Pakistani said:


> Good that no life loss.
> 
> Through investigation is required as to why 2 failures in short period of time.




Probably due to high tempo and rate of operating. 

Acceptable crashes/failures.

Although loss of the pilot the other day was an unfortunate and sad incident.

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## razgriz19

It's human error. Either maintenance or pilot error. And please don't use old age as an excuse. Every time the aircraft gets overhauled, it is brought back to manufactures specifications. That is the purpose of overhauling. And besides F-16s are much older than F-7PGs so there's that. Since PAF never officially releases any info on mishaps, we will never know the exact cause of the crash.

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## satishkumarcsc

razgriz19 said:


> It's human error. Either maintenance or pilot error. And please don't use old age as an excuse. Every time the aircraft gets overhauled, it is brought back to manufactures specifications. That is the purpose of overhauling. And besides F-16s are much older than F-7PGs so there's that. Since PAF never officially releases any info on mishaps, we will never know the exact cause of the crash.




Well the F 7 are the AD and CAP workforce of the PAF and hence it clocks more flight time when compared to the F 16s. And F 7s are flown by the young pilots of the PAF. The experienced ones are posted in the F 16s. Perhaps that might be the reason. F 7PGs are based on the MiG 21 which is a very potent aircraft and still gives nightmares to the western forces. A technical snag can be possible, a bird hit or pilot error is possible. But I think the higher flight hours of F 7 PG might have put more stress on components.


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## volatile

Hi for any incident thats why some tools are used such as Why Why Analysis ,4M (Machine ,Man ,Method ,Material) 


razgriz19 said:


> It's human error. Either maintenance or pilot error. And please don't use old age as an excuse. Every time the aircraft gets overhauled, it is brought back to manufactures specifications. That is the purpose of overhauling. And besides F-16s are much older than F-7PGs so there's that. Since PAF never officially releases any info on mishaps, we will never know the exact cause of the crash.


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Its a Falco. Obvious from the broken intake which is unique for the zanzoterra engine.
> 
> 
> 
> Shahpar is an AWC design, not IDS. The designer is a professor in one of the AF universities. Still has many issues but moving forward. It is not a pirate of Israeli models. Any aeroform can be chosen to build a vehicle.



I was pretty sure it was IDS since that planform is pretty common and I have seen that. Satuma has something like that as well; although their main product had the cranked biplane arrangement.


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## razgriz19

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well the F 7 are the AD and CAP workforce of the PAF and hence it clocks more flight time when compared to the F 16s. And F 7s are flown by the young pilots of the PAF. The experienced ones are posted in the F 16s. Perhaps that might be the reason. F 7PGs are based on the MiG 21 which is a very potent aircraft and still gives nightmares to the western forces. A technical snag can be possible, a bird hit or pilot error is possible. But I think the higher flight hours of F 7 PG might have put more stress on components.



I totally understand that they're being used a lot, and it's also true that machinery, and systems can fail due to wear and tear, especially seals, pumps, etc. But things show signs of wear almost all the time, that's why you don't see airliners crashing so often because of equipment failure. Maintenance is highly regulated in Civil. I can bet 99% of airliner crashes in last 5 years were due to human error and not because of unforseen system failure. 
All I'm saying is that PAF would have to modify their maintenance practices in light of keeping aging equipment past their service life, maybe inspection needs to be done more frequently.


----------



## SQ8

razgriz19 said:


> I totally understand that they're being used a lot, and it's also true that machinery, and systems can fail due to wear and tear, especially seals, pumps, etc. But things show signs of wear almost all the time, that's why you don't see airliners crashing so often because of equipment failure. Maintenance is highly regulated in Civil. I can bet 99% of airliner crashes in last 5 years were due to human error and not because of unforseen system failure.
> All I'm saying is that PAF would have to modify their maintenance practices in light of keeping aging equipment past their service life, maybe inspection needs to be done more frequently.



Airliners arent required to pull 7-8Gs regularly.. FYI.

They are built for higher tolerances but also experience much greater stress in shorter intervals than airliners do.

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## Thunder Bolt

Reported a JF-17 crash by a person in contact with PAF Officer 
Any one got that news share details ....


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## Side-Winder

Random Tweets as well
@Windjammer


----------



## Thunder Bolt

May Allah Protect The Pilot

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## salarsikander

Raul_AD said:


> Again Crashed???? JF-17???
> 
> Whats wrong with this bird????


When was it crashed before ?


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## Agent_47

Raul_AD said:


> Again Crashed???? JF-17???
> 
> Whats wrong with this bird????


Every flying plane crashes.
Lets hope pilot is safe.

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## Zibago

Pilot error or technical fault?


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## Areesh

Nothing on media till now


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## RealNapster

Raul_AD said:


> Again Crashed???? JF-17???
> 
> Whats wrong with this bird????



if this news is true. then this is 2nd crash of jf-17 till date.

2nd crash since it's induction. that makes 8 years as induction started in 2008. 2 crash in 8 years is not a big deal.

ab bata itna heraan kis bat pe ho raha hay ?

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## Tipu7

Raul_AD said:


> Again Crashed???? JF-17???
> 
> Whats wrong with this bird????



Apparently some thing ''wrong'' has happened to this bird only twice (if current case is crash) in past 10 years.
Keep trolls away from thread @waz @Irfan Baloch @HRK 



Zibago said:


> Pilot error or technical fault?



To early to say anything.
Over sea, meaning possible technical error.


----------



## The Deterrent

Oscar said:


> PAF -> Falco or Shahpar..


Nope, it was Burraq.

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## RealNapster

Zibago said:


> Pilot error or technical fault?



Sir ! no body can even confirm the news for now. and you started NAT GEO presents AIR CRASH INVESTIGATION.

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## janu.bravo

RealNapster said:


> if this news is true. then this is 2nd crash of jf-17 till date.
> 
> 2nd crash since it's induction. that makes 8 years as induction started in 2008. 2 crash in 8 years is not a big deal.
> 
> ab bata itna heraan kis bat pe ho raha hay ?


adat se majboor hai...Tejas urh nahin paa raha is liye  I hope pilot is safe.

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## Zibago

Tipu7 said:


> Apparently some thing ''wrong'' has happened to this bird only twice (if current case is crash) in past 10 years.
> Keep trolls away from thread @waz @Irfan Baloch @HRK
> 
> 
> 
> To early to say anything.
> Over sea, meaning possible technical error.


Someone said jf 17hasnt been cleared for marine roles wahan to Mirage hota hay


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## YouGotRouged

Raul_AD said:


> Again Crashed???? JF-17???
> 
> Whats wrong with this bird????



Every bird crashes. Doesn't take anything away from the plus points of the plane. F-22's have crashed. B-52s, B-2's, F-22's have crashed, does it mean something is inherently wrong with the plane?

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## YeBeWarned

rather than playing the guess game over the Fault or error we should pray for Pilot safety ... Planes does not matter as it can be rebuild or we can make a new one, but Life can't be brought back .. May Allah Protect the Pilot

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## Tipu7

Zibago said:


> Someone said jf 17hasnt been cleared for marine roles wahan to Mirage hota hay


Jf17 is deployed for Maritime role.
Minhas Squadron is using both air crafts.


----------



## deckingraj

RealNapster said:


> if this news is true. then this is 2nd crash of jf-17 till date.
> 
> 2nd crash since it's induction. *that makes 8 years as induction started in 2008. 2 crash in 8 years is not a big deal.*
> 
> ab bata itna heraan kis bat pe ho raha hay ?


of-course it is not and is pretty impressive...however just an FYI i believe sorties/crash is more relevant figure in fighter jets....
On topic - ..if the news is true...more important news should be about the safety of pilot.

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## Falgrine

My brother's coursemate was flying wingman to the downed pilot. Do not have any confirm news yet. Will share if hear anything specific.


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## Falgrine

No 16 Sqn Jf-17. MOst probably deployed to Masroor due to HM-2016


----------



## deckingraj

janu.bravo said:


> adat se majboor hai...Tejas urh nahin paa raha is liye  I hope pilot is safe.


ummm actually it is flying...also i believe this thread is more important to Pakistani's than Indian...so why thrown flame baits?? shouldn't you be more worried about the safety of your pilot?


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## rida.rwp

Zibago said:


> Pilot error or technical fault?


it may be technical fault like this one http://www.ytvideos.net/watch.php?v=u9eWwuJJbis


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## Areesh

Honestly speaking it is pretty pathetic by PAF. 2 crashes in 1 week. In fact 3 if we add that drone crash too.

I am disappointed with this performance of PAF.

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## GumNaam

Nothing in the news, nothing on dawn, tribune or ary, sounds fake.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

If the news is true I hope the Pilot is safely rescued ..


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## WaLeEdK2

They're probably testing it to its limits. I haven't heard of any jf-17 crashes before these.


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## The Eagle

Seen many sorties in evening. 1st crash was more of crew error and bird was pushed beyond limits that even some analysis the same deliberate. No such news for the 2nd crash. Hope for the best and safety of Pilot as machine can be replaced. Furthermore, every bird has a crash record and the most feared F-16 has much of crash numbers in starting years. 

Let the Truth come out there will be report of any kind of error as well. No worries, pray for pilot.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Areesh said:


> Honestly speaking it is pretty pathetic by PAF. 2 crashes in 1 week. In fact 3 if we add that drone crash too.
> 
> I am disappointed with this performance of PAF.



F-7s are ancient so one can understand...

Let's hope the news isn't true..


----------



## janu.bravo

deckingraj said:


> ummm actually it is flying...also i believe this thread is more important to Pakistani's than Indian...so why thrown flame baits?? shouldn't you be more worried about the safety of your pilot?


you should ask this question from your country fellow. and yes i am very much worried


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## DESERT FIGHTER

WaLeEdK2 said:


> They're probably testing it to its limits. I haven't heard of any jf-17 crashes before these.



10 years back .. The fault was due to the some turd in chengdu and PAC who didn't assemble the jet properly .. Some losed screws were held responsible for the crash..

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## Areesh

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> F-7s are ancient so one can understand...
> 
> Let's hope the news isn't true..



Agreed


----------



## Side-Winder

Just talked to an officer. He says, Nothing confirmed yet. We are working on it.

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## maximuswarrior

Any official word yet?


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## deckingraj

Areesh said:


> Honestly speaking it is pretty pathetic by PAF. 2 crashes in 1 week. In fact 3 if we add that drone crash too.
> 
> I am disappointed with this performance of PAF.


look in the overall context and not in weeks/months....these are machines and they do fail...so are men...


----------



## Areesh

deckingraj said:


> look in the overall context and not in weeks/months....these are machines and they do fail...so are men...



Agreed.



maximuswarrior said:


> Any official word yet?



Nope.


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## deckingraj

janu.bravo said:


> you should ask this question from your country fellow. and yes i am very much worried


what should i ask?? anyways that's why i said this thread is about your pilot safety(news is not even confirmed though)..so keeping trolls off this thread should be more important to you...no?

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## kaykay

Hope pilot is safe.... aircrafts can be replaced but not lives of pilots.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IMHO no point commenting when there is no information. If true, I hope the pilot is safe.

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## WaLeEdK2

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 10 years back .. The fault was due to the some turd in chengdu and PAC who didn't assemble the jet properly .. Some losed screws were held responsible for the crash..



I doubt this is the cause for this crash but it is definitely to be wary of. But I believe that they are really testing it out this time with difficult maneuvers.


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## Side-Winder

*The pilot whose picture being shared by some accounts at twitter, rumored to be flying the aircraft. *

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## JOEY TRIBIANI

It was a rumor .


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## NKVD

Twitter Post 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/780853289357279232


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## Tuchha

Hope Pilot is safe, does there is any confirmation...


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## RealNapster

deckingraj said:


> of-course it is not and is pretty impressive...however just an FYI i believe* sorties/crash* is more relevant figure in fighter jets....
> On topic - ..if the news is true...more important news should be about the safety of pilot.



Yes sir. i do agree. and if i am not wrong some 2-3 months ago @Windjammer shared news that JF-17 completed 19000 flight hours, which i think will require around same number of sorties. so still it's a good sign.

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## IndoUS

NKVD said:


> Twitter Post
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/780853289357279232


Is that official army?

If so RIP to the pilot and my prayers for the family.


----------



## RealNapster

janu.bravo said:


> adat se majboor hai...Tejas urh nahin paa raha is liye  I hope pilot is safe.



Allah apne amaan me rakhy.

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## JonAsad

I cant understand how come the pilot doesn't eject? - he should eject - 

Is it PAF doctrine or something ? - 
Try to save the plane until last moment? - 

Some one explain to me why did the pilot did not eject? - 

It was over the sea no population to avoid so what held him up? - 

What is this? -


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## Mrc

IndoUS said:


> Is that official army?
> 
> If so RIP to the pilot and my prayers for the family.




Fake

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## Peaceful Civilian

Seems fake news.

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## Farah Sohail

IndoUS said:


> Is that official army?
> 
> If so RIP to the pilot and my prayers for the family.



Fake account... There is only one account of ISPR and the other is of, Asim Bajwa, which are official, on twitter... No other official account on twitter

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## NKVD

IndoUS said:


> Is that official army?
> 
> If so RIP to the pilot and my prayers for the family.


?Nahh Its Some random Posting In Twitter

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## Sulman Badshah

We should wait for official confirmation ...


----------



## Mrc

NKVD said:


> ?Nahh Its Some random Posting In Twitter




Following of account 1001 ono...
I mean pak army is not such a bad organization.. 
Most posts have 1 like...


----------



## janu.bravo

RealNapster said:


> Allah apne amaan me rakhy.


Aameen!

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## Azadkashmir

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 10 years back .. The fault was due to the some turd in chengdu and PAC who didn't assemble the jet properly .. Some losed screws were held responsible for the crash..



are you serious a loose screw bro even on motorbikes they use locktite glue or special screws or bolts that are designed to not open even under intense viberation.


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## RealNapster

JonAsad said:


> Some one explain to me why did the pilot did not eject? -



i think it "MAY" have something with the elevation. if plane is at this elevation try control it. if reduces from this elevation, eject...


----------



## Armoured Division

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/780847832639139840

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## deckingraj

RealNapster said:


> Yes sir. i do agree. and if i am not wrong some 2-3 months ago @Windjammer shared news that JF-17 completed 19000 flight hours, which i think will require around same number of sorties. *so still it's a good sign*.


of-course...it is..

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## CriticalThinker02

Is it a confirmed news from official sources or still a rumor?


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## Armoured Division

Waqkz said:


> Is it a confirmed news from official sources or still a rumor?


You won't hear anything from official sources whether it is a confirmation or denial in the middle of the night.
Wait till tomorrow morning.


----------



## JonAsad

Our pilot is probably at the sea alone in the dark night waiting for a miracle - 

Please all pray for him -

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## SQ8

The Deterrent said:


> Nope, it was Burraq.


In that case the silver lining in all of this is that it is being integrated into operational usage.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Azadkashmir said:


> are you serious a loose screw bro even on motorbikes they use locktite glue or special screws or bolts that are designed to not open even under intense viberation.



Not literally from what I've heard from insiders the jet wasn't assembled strongly .. The plane disintegrated in the air due to the same reason..



JonAsad said:


> I cant understand how come the pilot doesn't eject? - he should eject -
> 
> Is it PAF doctrine or something ? -
> Try to save the plane until last moment? -
> 
> Some one explain to me why did the pilot did not eject? -
> 
> It was over the sea no population to avoid so what held him up? -
> 
> What is this? -



Our pilots try the save the jet till the end .. And in many cases they don't eject to prevent the plane from crashing into populated areas

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## Fenrir

GDP Adil Khan Niazi said:


> nae matlab k ho kyaa raha ha ??
> 2nd air crash of Pakistan Airforce within 4-5 days,
> now i think PAF should really took this matter seriously
> View attachment 338232



That's an American Predator B that crashed near Nogales, Arizona in 2006.

Here's a better picture:






Just another case of the media being the media.


----------



## PakSword

Raul_AD said:


> Again Crashed???? JF-17???
> 
> Whats wrong with this bird????



To crash a plane, you need to fly it.

Plane whose air frame is paraded and is under development for more than two decades does not crash.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Maddy Lynn said:


> That's an American Predator B that crashed near Nogales, Arizona in 2006.
> 
> Here's a better picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just another case of the media being the media.



That was actually a file photo..

@Oscar. Any news on the JF rumour ?



Oscar said:


> In that case the silver lining in all of this is that it is being integrated into operational usage.



Remember the Wing Loong crash ? Did they make a decision on its induction or were/are they already operational ?


----------



## Azadkashmir

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Not literally from what I've heard from insiders the jet wasn't assembled strongly .. The plane disintegrated in the air due to the same reason..
> 
> 
> 
> Our pilots try the save the jet till the end .. And in many cases they don't eject to prevent the plane from crashing into populated areas




anyway can you explain to me why paf engineers do not electric screwdrivers to tight screws/bolts etc. i seen videos but it all hand tightening.

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## Mughal-Prince

Oscar said:


> In that case the silver lining in all of this is that it is being integrated into operational usage.



Oscar can you please confirm it is there any crash occur today which is associated with JFT or is it only a rumor ?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Azadkashmir said:


> anyway can you explain to me why paf engineers do not electric screwdrivers to tight screws/bolts etc. i seen videos but it all hand tightening.



I have no idea .. Don't have a single relative in the airforce .. It's all army.

But considering they are upgrading the production from 16 to 25-26 along with SM & K8.. And building an "Aviation City"... I do hope they are on it or already using it..


The fault wasn't solely PACs but Chengdus aswell the frame wasn't "bolted" strong by the Chinese either..


@Oscar. Knows more..

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## SQ8

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Remember the Wing Loong crash ? Did they make a decision on its induction or were/are they already operational ?


Still under evaluation

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## Irfan Baloch

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Not literally from what I've heard from insiders the jet wasn't assembled strongly .. The plane disintegrated in the air due to the same reason..
> 
> 
> 
> Our pilots try the save the jet till the end .. And in many cases they don't eject to prevent the plane from crashing into populated areas


now this is scandalous blunder and criminal in nature
no excuse at all. those that approved it flight worthy are as culpable as the ones who did a half arsed job. 
good luck with export 
this is tragic , shameful and funny at the same time

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## SQ8

Mughal-Prince said:


> Oscar can you please confirm it is there any crash occur today which is associated with JFT or is it only a rumor ?


It is currently 1:35 AM in PK, most people are either not going to respond if the news is true; relevant personnel would be busy. 

What is important to understand is that the High Mark exersizes generate some of the highest sortie rates for an exercise that in cases surpass any carried out elsewhere. During High Mark 2010, pilots that had averaged 180 hours a year ended up hitting anywhere between 250-300; NOW; here is the more interesting part, unlike many airforces, the PAF has at least 2 pilots to 1 aircraft - which means that both these pilots have to achieve similar hours in the jet, which leads to the jet accumulating hours much faster than it would otherwise.

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## Ultima Thule

JonAsad said:


> I cant understand how come the pilot doesn't eject? - he should eject -
> 
> Is it PAF doctrine or something ? -
> Try to save the plane until last moment? -
> 
> Some one explain to me why did the pilot did not eject? -
> 
> It was over the sea no population to avoid so what held him up? -
> 
> What is this? -


wait for confirmation, i think its fake news no reporting on 1 am news don't assume yourself that your silly thought


----------



## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> now this is scandalous blunder and criminal in nature
> no excuse at all. those that approved it flight worthy are as culpable as the ones who did a half arsed job.
> good luck with export
> this is tragic , shameful and funny at the same time


The information is a little incorrect; it was scandalous but not attributed to maintenance. Call it a case of Jugaar for a system gone wrong.

Addendum: if there was indeed a crash with the claimed 120NM out to sea location; SAR will probably take a while to get there and current weather and sea states are as follows:
Breezy whitecapping conditions with moderate choppy seas. Small short period wind waves.

Winds: WSW 15 to 20 knots.

Seas: WSW 1.7 meters at 6 seconds.

This means that an ejected pilot will have a difficult time staying in the same location @Penguin


----------



## Mughal-Prince

Oscar said:


> It is currently 1:35 AM in PK, most people are either not going to respond if the news is true; relevant personnel would be busy.
> 
> What is important to understand is that the High Mark exersizes generate some of the highest sortie rates for an exercise that in cases surpass any carried out elsewhere. During High Mark 2010, pilots that had averaged 180 hours a year ended up hitting anywhere between 250-300; NOW; here is the more interesting part, unlike many airforces, the PAF has at least 2 pilots to 1 aircraft - which means that both these pilots have to achieve similar hours in the jet, which leads to the jet accumulating hours much faster than it would otherwise.



Indeed thats right and I know thats the reason here of wear and tear and that shows the professionality of our crew who are keeping an older aircraft like Mirage in flying condition.

Any ways I can understand what you have told above but I was asking just as I thought you can connect through and extract some news. Lets keep our hopes high and pray that all is a rumor.

I believe that RD-93 is a derivative of an engine which is used at sea by Indian and Russian airforce Migs. So I believe it is built for the purpose I mean sea based operations.

Oscar in my early days I used to live in nazimabad where the landing formation always pass over my home so I am a witness of the sorties they make in a day the CAP they perform in F-6, A-5, F7, Mirage and now in JFT. Since I came to know that how much a sortie cost makes me think we are spending a hell lot of money on preparation and readiness and I think thats going to pay us.


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## The Eagle

No such news of JFT crash yet however sorties were in evening and around 8p.m. then after, it is complete silence (unusual). Also, low flying airspace closure was announced earlier, in Karachi.

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## Ultima Thule

why low flying airspace closure in Karachi? any idea


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## Irfan Baloch

Oscar said:


> The information is a little incorrect; it was scandalous but not attributed to maintenance. Call it a case of Jugaar for a system gone wrong.
> 
> Addendum: if there was indeed a crash with the claimed 120NM out to sea location; SAR will probably take a while to get there and current weather and sea states are as follows:
> Breezy whitecapping conditions with moderate choppy seas. Small short period wind waves.
> 
> Winds: WSW 15 to 20 knots.
> 
> Seas: WSW 1.7 meters at 6 seconds.
> 
> This means that an ejected pilot will have a difficult time staying in the same location @Penguin


god help the pilot if he managed to eject. hope he doesnt become victim to sharks or drowns due to rough sea.. or exhaustion. think their gear comes with locator, flares, inflatable and some shark repellents


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## The Eagle

pakistanipower said:


> why low flying airspace closure in Karachi? any idea



Part of High Mark 2016 exercise especially for low flying sorties.

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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> god help the pilot if he managed to eject. hope he doesnt become victim to sharks or drowns due to rough sea.. or exhaustion. think their gear comes with locator, flares, inflatable and some shark repellents


Sharks are the concern, That area is notorious for it. A/Cdre Middlecoat is assumed to have been lost to them.


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## baqai

Praying that the news is a rumor, hopefully the pilot is safe if God forbids news is correct


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## NKVD

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/780885621866917890


----------



## farhan_9909

I hope the pilot is safe


----------



## November Charlie

News is confirmed. JF 17 is missing 40 nm south of ormara. SAR in progress. Pilot's fate isnt confirmed yet. Prayers requested.


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## Mrc

praying for the pilot


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## November Charlie

NKVD said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/780885621866917890





Oscar said:


> It is currently 1:35 AM in PK, most people are either not going to respond if the news is true; relevant personnel would be busy.
> 
> What is important to understand is that the High Mark exersizes generate some of the highest sortie rates for an exercise that in cases surpass any carried out elsewhere. During High Mark 2010, pilots that had averaged 180 hours a year ended up hitting anywhere between 250-300; NOW; here is the more interesting part, unlike many airforces, the PAF has at least 2 pilots to 1 aircraft - which means that both these pilots have to achieve similar hours in the jet, which leads to the jet accumulating hours much faster than it would otherwise.


So far the news is confirmed but the fate of SL Rizwan isnt. Let us we all praye for him. May Allah return him back to his family alive. Ameen.


----------



## razgriz19

Oscar said:


> Airliners arent required to pull 7-8Gs regularly.. FYI.
> 
> They are built for higher tolerances but also experience much greater stress in shorter intervals than airliners do.



Okay....but just like you said they ARE built to handle that 7-8G stress so how can it break down before the end of its service life?

And Landing and taking off half a million ton aircraft puts a lot of stress on any airliner. Pressurizing to 8000 ft of cabin altitude and depressurizing the aircraft every cycle puts even greater stress on air frame, but a mechanical failure is not the same as structural failure. If a load bearing structure failed, sure we can say that's poor design or cause of pulling 7-8Gs on regular basis. Mechanical failure can usually be traced back to poor maintenance, or a design flaw, but since F-7pg is such an older air frame, would assume all design flaws are probably worked out. So that just leaves maintenance.


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## messiach

JF17 went down? not good. Lets confirm.


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## Mrc

Another rumour another site...ocean search and rescue as part of excercise... scenario is being misquoted ??

Nothing is confirm till its officially confirm...

Praying


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## Ultima Thule

November Charlie said:


> News is confirmed. JF 17 is missing 40 nm south of ormara. SAR in progress. Pilot's fate isnt confirmed yet. Prayers requested.


what your source bro their is nothing in the news at 4 am it might be fake rumors waiting to be confirmed


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## mingle

Again it shows if News Is true Pak should look for twin Engine Maritime strike Aircraft .

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## Vortex

I hope the news is fake, or it was just an exercise part of High Marks 2016.

PAF should think better for safety of pilots. And all armed forces should undertake all efforts to recover our men quickly.

Couldn't they use PAF or navy air asset to detect any pilot in the sea ?


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## SQ8

razgriz19 said:


> Okay....but just like you said they ARE built to handle that 7-8G stress so how can it break down before the end of its service life?
> 
> And Landing and taking off half a million ton aircraft puts a lot of stress on any airliner. Pressurizing to 8000 ft of cabin altitude and depressurizing the aircraft every cycle puts even greater stress on air frame, but a mechanical failure is not the same as structural failure. If a load bearing structure failed, sure we can say that's poor design or cause of pulling 7-8Gs on regular basis. Mechanical failure can usually be traced back to poor maintenance, or a design flaw, but since F-7pg is such an older air frame, would assume all design flaws are probably worked out. So that just leaves maintenance.


Is airframe the only thing on an aircraft?


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## GumNaam

The military rumor mill has it that it was yet another bird hit.


----------



## Foxtrot-Bravo

*Please don't delete the thread like before as the news are legitimate and I take full responsibility. *

Reportedly a JF-17 Thunder has crashed somewhere near Pasni, Balochistan while on a routine mission with Pakistan Navy.

Situation of the pilot, SL Rizwan still remains doubtful as some sources claim that his ejection beacon is still alive. Pakistan Navy has already sent out units for SAR.







Captured this picture a few minutes ago, outside his house. His family is stationed in PAF Base Minhas, Kamra.

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## Salahuddin Ayyubi

hope the pilot is fine. this is the 3rd crash in a month, i know it's good to be prepared and do air drills, but when u loose 2 jets and 1 uav, u kinda have to wonder what would the situation be if we get into some conflict.


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## Thunder Bolt

Side-Winder said:


> *The pilot whose picture being shared by some accounts at twitter, rumored to be flying the aircraft. *
> 
> View attachment 338667





Side-Winder said:


> *The pilot whose picture being shared by some accounts at twitter, rumored to be flying the aircraft. *
> 
> View attachment 338667



Actually he is thunder pilot Rizwan got shadat in 1st crash of jf 17 in 2005 in Minawali Paikhel


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## barbarosa

The 2nd crash in the one week and tension with India?????????????


----------



## I.R.A

My prayers are with family of pilot ............ may ALLAH keep their son out of harm's way and may we find him alive soon Ameen.


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Salahuddin Ayyubi said:


> hope the pilot is fine. this is the 3rd crash in a month, i know it's good to be prepared and do air drills, but when u loose 2 jets and 1 uav, u kinda have to wonder what would the situation be if we get into some conflict.



This crash is supposed to be because of some sea birds.



User said:


> My prayers are with family of pilot ............ may ALLAH keep their son out of harm's way and may we find him alive soon Ameen.



Ameen, we are praying for the same too.

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## RAMPAGE

Our prayers go out to the pilot. May Allah keep him safe and reunite him with his family and squadron.

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

RAMPAGE said:


> Our prayers go out to the pilot. May Allah keep him safe and reunite him with his family and squadron.



Ameen.


----------



## thrilainmanila

2nd JF-17 crash, 1 crashed in mangla hills


----------



## Signalian

attrition losses should be replaced with Block III

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## SQ8

thrilainmanila said:


> 2nd JF-17 crash, 1 crashed in mangla hills


Again.. relevancy or just needless trash throwing?
Please prove the relevancy of a crash whose reasons are purely a combination of pilot and engineering error in exceeding design limits to one which we know jack about for now.

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

The_Sidewinder said:


> I pray for safety of the pilot. Looks like JF17s are turning out to be flying coffins just like Mig21s of IAF. What are the causes of these incidents? Pilot error or mechanical issues??



Flying coffins? Are you serious mate? This is the second crash in about 8 years. Plus, the reason of both crashes, the first one and this one is a bird hit. So, a bird hit is totally bad luck, there's no such thing as pilot or engineering failure.

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## thrilainmanila

Oscar said:


> Again.. relevancy or just needless trash throwing?
> Please prove the relevancy of a crash whose reasons are purely a combination of pilot and engineering error in exceeding design limits to one which we know jack about for now.


no need to get touchy i'm stating fact.


----------



## Armoured Division

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> Flying coffins? Are you serious mate? This is the second crash in about 8 years. Plus, the reason of both crashes, the first one and this one is a bird hit. So, a bird hit is totally bad luck, there's no such thing as pilot or engineering failure.


Bird hit over sea in the middle of the night???


----------



## Mrc

thrilainmanila said:


> no need to get touchy i'm stating fact.



Raffale has crashed 4 times in same period

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## barbarosa

Sarge said:


> attrition losses should be replaced with Block III


The foundation is not strong what will the 3rd floor do? its result will be the same.


----------



## Mrc

@mods check indian trolling


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Armoured Division said:


> Bird hit over sea in the middle of the night???



Haven't you heard of sea birds dude?

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## SQ8

thrilainmanila said:


> no need to get touchy i'm stating fact.


What for? It is not about touchy, do you actually have Pakistan image and interests in mind?
Because that is the SOLE purpose of this site; as much as I want heads rolled or an idea of what went wrong, I will wait for the facts before posting the same meaningless and speculation sparking BS like "2nd Crash, 1st in Mianwali"

Because you are too well aware what the next post will be on it, it will talk of a flawed jet; which also needs introspection.. but not while you have a man;s life is hanging in the balance.

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## Dazzler

The_Sidewinder said:


> I pray for safety of the pilot. Looks like JF17s are turning out to be flying coffins just like Mig21s of IAF. What are the causes of these incidents? Pilot error or mechanical issues??



An blatant example of inferiority and obsession and speaking without having any prior info. the HIGH MARK 2016 is underway and i myself witness thunders and mirages flying multiple sorties from masroor base. It is quite evident that the PAF is focusing on verh high sortie generation this time around. This takez a lot of toll on the airframe, engine and other components.

Did you get it yet? There is a world of difference between a crash occurring while pushing the envelope and crashing for no apparent reason, thats what your migs have been doing for the last four decades.

Lastly, 2 crashes in 8 years of active service is a record any aircraft would take pride in. Heck, the USAF ended up crashing more F-22s than that during its service.

Still, there is no confirmation that the crashed aircraft was a jf-17

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## RPK

It is operated By PN or PAF?

@GuardianRED


----------



## MastanKhan

thrilainmanila said:


> 2nd JF-17 crash, 1 crashed in mangla hills



Hi,

Okay---so what is the big deal---.

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## saiyan0321

May Allah protect the pilot and bring him home safely. Planes can be built again but a pilot's life is invaluable and its that loss that truly clenches the heart. A machine can be replaced a thousand times but human being can never be replaced.

May Allah bring him back to us safely.

As for the reasons for crash. We will go over each inch of the plane after we make sure the pilot is safe.

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## thrilainmanila

Oscar said:


> What for? It is not about touchy, do you actually have Pakistan image and interests in mind?
> Because that is the SOLE purpose of this site; as much as I want heads rolled or an idea of what went wrong, I will wait for the facts before posting the same meaningless and speculation sparking BS like "2nd Crash, 1st in Mianwali"
> 
> Because you are too well aware what the next post will be on it, it will talk of a flawed jet; which also needs introspection.. but not while you have a man;s life is hanging in the balance.


what has pakistans image have anything to do with what i said, when did i disrespect the pilot, even if someone talks about flaws whats the problem this forum is made to engage in a civilized open debate. constructive criticism is always beneficiary, not all of us are born foolish enough to chant pakistan zindabad in a kumbaya manner and expect the problem to fix itself


----------



## SQ8

thrilainmanila said:


> what has pakistans image have anything to do with what i said, when did i disrespect the pilot, even if someone talks about flaws whats the problem this forum is made to engage in a civilized open debate. constructive criticism is always beneficiary, not all of us are born foolish enough to chant pakistan zindabad in a kumbaya manner and expect the problem to fix itself



Nobody is asking you to sing Kumbaya around the fire, but no one should start bleating out RAW everytime there is a terrorist attack; which is exactly what you are doing regarding the Jf-17 and "flaws".

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Dazzler said:


> An blatant example of inferiority and obsession and speaking without having any prior info. the HIGH MARK 2016 is underway and i myself witness thunders and mirages flying multiple sorties from masroor base. It is quite evident that the PAF is focusing on verh high sortie generation this time around. This takez a lot of toll on the airframe, engine and other components.
> 
> Did you get it yet? There is a world of difference between a crash occurring while pushing the envelope and crashing for no apparent reason, thats what your migs have been doing for the last four decades.
> 
> Lastly, 2 crashes in 8 years of active service is a record any aircraft would take pride in. Heck, the USAF ended up crashing more F-22s than that during its service.
> 
> Still, there is no confirmation that the crashed aircraft was a jf-17



Well, the jet was JF-17, its confirmed.


----------



## T-72M1

what kind of terrain did it go down in and did they find the pilot yet ?


----------



## GumNaam

Man, I've been scowering the news channels like anything, no mention of any crash, not even in the tickers, what gives?


----------



## ziaulislam

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> Well, the jet was JF-17, its confirmed.


you should give a news briefing to the news channels at least


----------



## Foxtrot-Bravo

ziaulislam said:


> you should give a news briefing to the news channels at least



The concerned authorities would, his house is a few blocks away from mine that's why I am confirming it. Don't take it personally.


----------



## ziaulislam

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> The concerned authorities would, his house is a few blocks away from mine that's why I am confirming it. Don't take it personally.


nope, i am not, but this is concerning that they have kept it hidden..


----------



## baqai

any updates on the SAR op? hope they find him


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

Dazzler said:


> There is a world of difference between a crash occurring while pushing the envelope and crashing for no apparent reason, thats what your migs have been doing for the last four decades.


You have no clue what you are talking about.
Did you read every single CoI that has been constituted to investigate such accidents?


----------



## Armoured Division

Dazzler said:


> An blatant example of inferiority and obsession and speaking without having any prior info. the HIGH MARK 2016 is underway and i myself witness thunders and mirages flying multiple sorties from masroor base. It is quite evident that the PAF is focusing on verh high sortie generation this time around. This takez a lot of toll on the airframe, engine and other components.
> 
> Did you get it yet? There is a world of difference between a crash occurring while pushing the envelope and crashing for no apparent reason, thats what your migs have been doing for the last four decades.


Since you brought in India into this thread, you do realize that as per data from aviation-safety.net & ejection.co.uk, since January 2012 there have 25 crashes of IAF fighter jets whereas PAF has seen 19 fighter jet crashes i.e. a ratio of 1.32:1.
Now taking into consideration the fact the IAF is 1.8 to 2.0x the size of PAF, PAFs crash rate is significantly worse than IAF's.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

I fail to find any news portal reporting it. 

Is there a storm over the sea in Arabian ocean ?


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## Dazzler

Lord Of Gondor said:


> You have no clue what you are talking about.
> Did you read every single CoI that has been constituted to investigate such accidents?



I do, perhaps more than you do. Lets discuss it in another thread shall we?

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## RPK

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> I fail to find any news portal reporting it.
> 
> Is there a storm over the sea in Arabian ocean ?



Weather is very clear in Arabian sea

http://www.imd.gov.in/pages/satmet_main.php

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## NirmalKrish

RPK said:


> Weather is very clear in Arabian sea
> 
> http://www.imd.gov.in/pages/satmet_main.php



IMD.gov seriously needs a face-lift to their webpage format, its like using internet from the early 90's long before flash and shockwave came in!


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## Ankit Kumar 002

RPK said:


> Weather is very clear in Arabian sea
> 
> http://www.imd.gov.in/pages/satmet_main.php



Hmm, then most probably its the RD93 to blame. 

However first of all I pray for the human life. God Speed the Search and Rescue team.


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## GuardianRED

NirmalKrish said:


> IMD.gov seriously needs a face-lift to their webpage format, its like using internet from the early 90's long before flash and shockwave came in!


Maybe they just want to keep it simple! really simple!


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## NirmalKrish

GuardianRED said:


> Maybe they just want to keep it simple! really simple!



Seriously its a joke!

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

ziaulislam said:


> nope, i am not, but this is concerning that they have kept it hidden..



They will update media for sure once the situation is clear.


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## GuardianRED

NirmalKrish said:


> Seriously its a joke!


Atleast the content is clear (Sat Pic)

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## Fireurimagination

No news anywhere, is this a hoax news or what?


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## Mrc

Hoax... no announcement


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Fireurimagination said:


> No news anywhere, is this a hoax news or what?





Mrc said:


> Hoax... no announcement



No haox, the jet crashed, its 100% confirmed. I think the authorities will publicize it once the situation about pilot is clear.

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## Nilgiri

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> No haox, the jet crashed, its 100% confirmed. I think the authorities will publicize it once the situation about pilot is clear.



I hope pilot is safe and will be recovered.

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Nilgiri said:


> I hope pilot is safe and will be recovered.



My sources claim that the pilot had successfully ejected and his ejection beacon was active till this morning. We all hope he is safe and sound.

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## Mrc

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> No haox, the jet crashed, its 100% confirmed. I think the authorities will publicize it once the situation about pilot is clear.



Another site was saying that it was a rsscue scenario at sea as part of excercise.. some one saw the search and rescue assets moving towards sea and persumed that a jet has gone down....
What and where is the source???


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Mrc said:


> Another site was saying that it was a rsscue scenario at sea as part of excercise.. some one saw the search and rescue assets moving towards sea and persumed that a jet has gone down....
> What and where is the source???



The pilot flying the jet lives just a few blocks from my home and the picture below shows the entrance of his bungalow, with the ambulances.

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## hussain0216

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> The pilot flying the jet lives just a few blocks from my home and the picture below shows the entrance of his bungalow, with the ambulances.
> View attachment 338767



Why would their be ambulances outside his home if he is lost at sea?

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## Mrc

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> The pilot flying the jet lives just a few blocks from my home and the picture below shows the entrance of his bungalow, with the ambulances.
> View attachment 338767



What are ambulances doing there?? Pilot is at sea...

Sory i m a bit skepticle


----------



## Armoured Division

Mrc said:


> What are ambulances doing there?? Pilot is at sea...
> 
> Sory i m a bit skepticle


Probably because family members became unwell after hearing the news.


----------



## Mrc

Armoured Division said:


> Probably because family members became unwell after hearing the news.



Or some one became ill period....

People do fall sick without hearing bad news as well


----------



## Armoured Division

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/781043712839286785


Mrc said:


> Or some one became ill period....
> 
> People do fall sick without hearing bad news as well


Extremely unlikely coincidence.
The name of the pilot missing was revealed yesterday night.
And today morning ambulances appeared outside his door.


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## Windjammer

One aircraft is missing during a night sortie deep over the sea, 
A British Airways flight flying overhead picked up a signal and reported to the authorities.
Navy and air force search and rescue are combing the area.


----------



## Mrc

Armoured Division said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/781043712839286785
> 
> Extremely unlikely coincidence.
> The name of the pilot missing was revealed yesterday night.
> And today morning ambulances appeared outside his door.




Ok lets wait and see...

But if tge family has been informed.. there is no need to not make an announcement.. i can understand witholding info till next of kin is notified only...
Lets see


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

hussain0216 said:


> Why would their be ambulances outside his home if he is lost at sea?





Mrc said:


> What are ambulances doing there?? Pilot is at sea...
> 
> Sory i m a bit skepticle



This is SOP, to handle any sort of emergencies.


----------



## messiach

Looks like we have lost a jet. Anyone confirm if it is jf17. It surely is not an engine issue, until something totally drastic happened. Depressing, lost two jet and pilots? in as many days.


----------



## Windjammer

Apparently the aircraft was on a solo flight and being pushed to limits.....nothing confirmed yet, a flame out can't be ruled out either.


----------



## SALMI

Sad to hear that. May Allah Protect S/L Rizwan.


----------



## Ankit Kumar 002

Windjammer said:


> Apparently the aircraft was on a solo flight and being pushed to limits.....nothing confirmed yet, a flame out can't be ruled out either.



Any estimate about how far the incident took place from the shore ? 

Because if its far , fixed wing assets should be pressed in, critical seconds can save the pilot. 
( I am of course presuming that the first assets as said by few tweets were Sea Kings. ) 

And with new ATR72s, I presume they must be too pressed in to help .

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## royalharris

Rip


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## hussain0216

Question 

Does it normally take this long to announce a lost aircraft?

I know their may be some issues/sensitivity over a possibly lost pilot


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## Mrc

hussain0216 said:


> Question
> 
> Does it normally take this long to announce a lost aircraft?
> 
> I know their may be some issues/sensitivity over a possibly lost pilot




No and yes


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

Flying over sea has its perils. The biggest issue in night sea flying is disorientation.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Flying over sea has its perils. The biggest issue in night sea flying is disorientation.



Any update from SAR team ?


----------



## barbarosa

Allah grant him place in the Jannat ul Firdos, AAmen sooma AAmen.


----------



## Dazzler

@Jango @Manticore @Oscar

Clean the thread and do us all a favor please. 

Thanks

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## messiach

Windjammer said:


> Apparently the aircraft was on a solo flight and being pushed to limits.....nothing confirmed yet, a flame out can't be ruled out either.



flame out..., maybe? there is inbuilt ECMS with operational and industrial modes, fully automated. Pilots gets aware much before flame out. Onboard diagnostics mode 'subtype O -operational mode' keeps realtime awareness. FLT - fault localization is semi-automated. Flame out is remote but possible. Something extremely disastrous must have happened. Very disappointed to hear.


----------



## Dazzler

Windjammer said:


> Apparently the aircraft was on a solo flight and being pushed to limits.....nothing confirmed yet, a flame out can't be ruled out either.



I doubt a flameout as it would be visible on the MFD courtesy the fuel status and even the HUD shows "Bingo Fuel".









However, as @Bilal Khan 777 said, flying over the ocean during night time is tricky business. Lets wait for what the official statement has to say.

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## senses

Is there any chance the jet crashed in international waters?


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## Bilal Khan 777

senses said:


> Is there any chance the jet crashed in international waters?



Aircraft crashed at night south of Ormara. It is likely to be disorientation during night flight. Lets wait for official news release tomorrow.

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## Fazeel.Q

I believe the beacon signalled can be backup - ed by extra battery ? but in water !! the chances of getting Pilot remain alive is not substantial.



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Aircraft crashed at night south of Ormara. It is likely to be disorientation during night flight. Lets wait for official news release tomorrow.



I believe the beacon signalled can be backup - ed by extra battery ? but in water !! the chances of getting Pilot remain alive is not substantial.


----------



## indiatester

Fazeel.Q said:


> I believe the beacon signalled can be backup - ed by extra battery ? but in water !! the chances of getting Pilot remain alive is not substantial.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the beacon signalled can be backup - ed by extra battery ? but in water !! the chances of getting Pilot remain alive is not substantial.


The ejection mechanism should also function as a flotation device. If he ejected safely, he should be rescued IMO.


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

indiatester said:


> The ejection mechanism should also function as a flotation device. If he ejected safely, he should be rescued IMO.



Kindly do your research before making posts here, or stop making posts to increase your post count.
Every fast jet pilot has both life safety equipments: bailout device in air, parachute, and floatation device, such as raft as part of his survival gear. If the pilot ejected, his seat provides both the parachute and life raft if landing on water. All pilots are trained in survival school to use this, and survival at sea during day and night. If in any situation the pilot has not been able to eject, then the chances of survival from a water landing are slim.

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## The Diplomat

JF-17 Thunder from Number 16 Squadron crashed into Arabian Sea yesterday about 120 Nautical Miles away from land.
Squadron Leader Rizwan was on routine Night Mission when aircraft went missing. Authorities believe that aircraft must have crashed and pilot have been ejected. Search and Rescue Missions are deployed by Pakistan Navy and Pakistan Air Force.
S/L Rizwan is still missing, Pray for him.
*







Link:* https://www.facebook.com/HeroesOfPa...36632674672/10154633381099673/?type=3&theater
*Is this true?

*

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## Haystack

Let's wait for a reliable source. I doubt the authenticity of a Facebook page.


----------



## The Diplomat

Haystack said:


> Let's wait for a reliable source. I doubt the authenticity of a Facebook page.


I have tried to find reliable sources but I couldn't, I don't know but I thought it was worth a share to find out any info.


----------



## Burhan Wani

@Windjammer @Side-Winder FYI.


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## Mrc

Strong rumour but nothing official.. i doubt they would have waited this long to give an official statement


----------



## The Diplomat

Mrc said:


> Strong rumour but nothing official.. i doubt they would have waited this long to give an official statement


No statement given by ISPR or PAF up to now and no reliable sources as well. Lets pray that it is a rumor and not real.

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## Burhan Wani

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/781101931083300864


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## Windjammer

Yes one aircraft missing since last night, there's a dedicated thread running.

https://defence.pk/threads/notify-paf-aircraft-crashes.3718/page-194

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## Danish saleem

Lahore_PAF said:


> No statement given by ISPR or PAF up to now and no reliable sources as well. Lets pray that it is a rumor and not real.



no clarification as well from ISPR.


----------



## The Diplomat

Jonah Arthur said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/781101931083300864


I can't bare to see a young girl with out her father, may Allah grant him the highest place in heaven. Pakistan Zindabad!

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## Darth Vader

Something Seems Fishy Why Not Single Source has Confirmed This News and Air Force is Keeping it a close lid about it
If you Check Old news about it
@Windjammer Seems Understand able if PAF is testing the full potential of bird 
But Why Seems strange everyone year who is Giving info about the pilot , if that was the Case News Channels would have already contacted the the Family Members are they would have been in touch with Emergency Contact


----------



## SBD-3

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Flying over sea has its perils. The biggest issue in night sea flying is disorientation.


Disorientation makes sense if the pilot is pulling wild manuvers. Otherwise there's ample information on HUD as well as warning mechanism available in the aircraft not to mention night flying modes like LANTRIN. Must have been some failure. But what I can't figure out that whether the pilot gave mayday call or not.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think it is not professional to start posting about items , when there is no official word from PAF
For all we know the reporter initially got the news from this same thread or one from yesterday where someone claimed JF17 Thunder was involved and it turned out to be F-7

(Comment made prior to merge of thread)


----------



## SBD-3

indiatester said:


> The ejection mechanism should also function as a flotation device. If he ejected safely, he should be rescued IMO.


Not necessary. Over sea there are a lot of troubling issues. One of the biggest enemy of pilots bailing out over sea is the same parachute which brings them down safe. If pilot isn't able to detach it in time, it can prove fatal.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think it is not professional to start posting about items , when there is no official word from PAF
> For all we know the reporter initially got the news from this same thread or one from yesterday where someone claimed JF17 Thunder was involved and it turned out to be F-7


Yesterday there was very unusual air activity over Karachi. Even yesterday night PAF sent a pair of fighters for sea patrol from Faisal which is not what I have witnessed everyday. On routine Faisal launches C-130s and P-3Cs. Fighters come from Masroor.


----------



## Talwar e Pakistan

Until JF-17 completely replaces these Aircraft, we're stuck with them and we'll have to deal with the crash rates. Just bare on another several years.


----------



## SBD-3

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Until JF-17 completely replaces these Aircraft, we're stuck with them and we'll have to deal with the crash rates. Just bare on another several years.


It's a supposedly JF-17 which crashed. Do read up the posts before posting random thoughts


----------



## SQ8

Lahore_PAF said:


> I have tried to find reliable sources but I couldn't, I don't know but I thought it was worth a share to find out any info.


Please make the effort to look at threads that might exist on the same subject before creating one of your own.


----------



## SBD-3

One thing I can guess it for not being thunder is that most of the flights seen in Karachi are those of Mirages. I am yet to witness a thunder flaying over Karachi. But then again, that's just a guess.


----------



## Khanate

Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi raji'un.


----------



## Mrc

ok ... delaying an announcement for this long is even possible? any of the extended family of pilot can contact media. if there is no announcement tomorrow, crash did not happen....


----------



## HAIDER

@SOHEIL .......????...paf UAV....origin and type

But no JF17 crash...just rumor .


----------



## TAC

Black Panthers are based at Kamra aren't they? Is it usual for Sq leader from so far north going on a sea mission? Or maybe part of the exercises?


----------



## JamD

HAIDER said:


> @SOHEIL .......????...paf UAV....origin and type



I asked an informed friend. It was a Burraq.


----------



## Lone Bullet

May Allah bring him back safely. Squadron Leader Rizwan Saqib was interviewed in this program last year at PAF Base Kamra. You can watch him from 26:20 mark, and please ignore the dumb host.

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## SQ8

TAC said:


> Black Panthers are based at Kamra aren't they? Is it usual for Sq leader from so far north going on a sea mission? Or maybe part of the exercises?


Deployments for exercise locations vary. No.16 may be based out of Peshawar but it may be operating in a role assigned to it within the parameters of high mark.


----------



## Ultima Thule

Khanate said:


> Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi raji'un.


For what? it is just a baseless and fake news based upon someone's tweet or Facebook post

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## The Diplomat

Oscar said:


> Please make the effort to look at threads that might exist on the same subject before creating one of your own.


Will do, thanks for merging it.


----------



## Mughal-Prince

SBD-3 said:


> One thing I can guess it for not being thunder is that most of the flights seen in Karachi are those of Mirages. I am yet to witness a thunder flaying over Karachi. But then again, that's just a guess.



Not one but many one after another I saw them night flying when I was at my friends place at roof top in Nazimabad from where the sorties passes through every time when they are descending towards Masroor for a landing. And also once above Hassan Square when I was passing through and heard a Jet sound I look above the sky it was a JFT passing right above me and that was a night time.


----------



## indiatester

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Kindly do your research before making posts here, or stop making posts to increase your post count.
> Every fast jet pilot has both life safety equipments: bailout device in air, parachute, and floatation device, such as raft as part of his survival gear. If the pilot ejected, his seat provides both the parachute and life raft if landing on water. All pilots are trained in survival school to use this, and survival at sea during day and night. If in any situation the pilot has not been able to eject, then the chances of survival from a water landing are slim.


I don't understand you criticizing me. Did I say anything different?


----------



## Dazzler

SBD-3 said:


> One thing I can guess it for not being thunder is that most of the flights seen in Karachi are those of Mirages. I am yet to witness a thunder flaying over Karachi. But then again, that's just a guess.


Seriously? I watch them flying with miragez as well as solo at least once or twice each day, especially at night. Somehow, they are more active after the sunset making tight maneuvers. I suspect they may be mastering the art of night flying over the arabian sea.

Watching thunders fly is a joy nonetheless.



Mughal-Prince said:


> Not one but many one after another I saw them night flying when I was at my friends place at roof top in Nazimabad from where the sorties passes through every time when they are descending towards Masroor for a landing. And also once above Hassan Square when I was passing through and heard a Jet sound I look above the sky it was a JFT passing right above me and that was a night time.



Mate, go around Gulshan and Nipa region and youll see not one not two but multiple thunders maneuvering all over the sky. Thats where i saw two thunders and Mirages maneuvering as if they were simulating a dogfight.


----------



## SOHEIL

HAIDER said:


> @SOHEIL .......????...paf UAV....origin and type
> 
> But no JF17 crash...just rumor .



CH-3 / Burraq


----------



## Fazeel.Q

Lets not judgemental and concluded others views, despite in view of general and relevant experiences even many posted technically. So respect for all those.

Lets not judgemental and concluded others views, despite in view of general and relevant experiences even many posted technically. So respect for all those.


----------



## SBD-3

Mughal-Prince said:


> Not one but many one after another I saw them night flying when I was at my friends place at roof top in Nazimabad from where the sorties passes through every time when they are descending towards Masroor for a landing. And also once above Hassan Square when I was passing through and heard a Jet sound I look above the sky it was a JFT passing right above me and that was a night time.


Identify a fighter during the night flying. I must commend your extraordinary eyesight. All me an ordinary humans can see is the thrust coming out of the engine and a blinking light.



Darth Vader said:


> Something Seems Fishy Why Not Single Source has Confirmed This News and Air Force is Keeping it a close lid about it
> If you Check Old news about it
> @Windjammer Seems Understand able if PAF is testing the full potential of bird
> But Why Seems strange everyone year who is Giving info about the pilot , if that was the Case News Channels would have already contacted the the Family Members are they would have been in touch with Emergency Contact


PAF has a bad habbit of keeping a lid on everything. Remember the Kamra attack when terrorists destroyed an Erieye. Plus PAF would have already tested the "Full potential" of the bird at Flight Test Station (FTS) Kamra.

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## Raider 21

It is weird hearing of a JF-17 crash without any coverage for it. Back in 1987 When my dad ejected in Afghanistan, it was over the news in a matter of hours. Just praying that the aviator of the JFT, his family and his colleagues.


----------



## Darth Vader

SBD-3 said:


> Identify a fighter during the night flying. I must commend your extraordinary eyesight. All me an ordinary humans can see is the thrust coming out of the engine and a blinking light.
> 
> 
> PAF has a bad habbit of keeping a lid on everything. Remember the Kamra attack when terrorists destroyed an Erieye. Plus PAF would have already tested the "Full potential" of the bird at Flight Test Station (FTS) Kamra.


Terrorist attack is different thing where lid is a must
When bird goes missing or soldier on duty for over 24 hours unless it's a covert op and his family must be informed
While plane going black on sea and its over 36 hours already 
If this was true or false Paf would have already informed
Something seems fishy 
As For Full potential it goes both ways for plane and pilot
Unless Paf is keeping a lid because of Indian Agggressive Stance 
Because have almost lost 3 assessts in 1 week 
2 planes
1 ucav


----------



## mshan44

great news

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## niaz

All aircraft crashes are sad events and I am glad that the pilot is safe. However, we must realize that flying has always been a dangerous occupation and each time a fighter pilot takes off, whether on an exercise or during the war, the brave person is putting his life on the line. Thus fighter and bomber pilots are among the bravest of the braves.

Exercises are a must for honing one’s flying skills and no matter what you do, occasionally crashes will happen, either due to the human error in flying or in the maintenance of the aircraft or due to the limits of the aircraft being crossed or even the bad weather. Important thing is to investigate the reasons of the crash and to ensure that in future the same thing does not happen again.

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## Archie

Aircraft crashing is part of the life in Air force
Their is no air force worth its name, which has not lost fighters and pilots to crashes

What is more important is number of flight hours per crash

The Su30MKI, which is the pride of the Indian air-force, has been involved in 6 crashes since 1996, During that time, the fleet has grown to 220 aircrafts which have together clocked over 250000 Flight Hours

As a rule of thumb,
as long as your rate of crashes remain less than 1 per 10000 flight hours, you are in the clear

Israeli Airforce has a crash rate of 1 every 22000 Flight Hour,
UK RAF has close to 1 every 20000 FLH
while USAF has 1 crash every 18000 FLH

Closer to home IAF has a crash rate of 1 every 14000 FLH,
which is mainly due to its large fleet of Mig21/27 still in service

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## Fazeel.Q

SBD-3 said:


> PAF has a bad habbit of keeping a lid on everything. Remember the Kamra attack when terrorists destroyed an Erieye. Plus PAF would have already tested the "Full potential" of the bird at Flight Test Station (FTS) Kamra.



Very true - its should be a habit to form a prestige outcome - when we need to address a nation.


----------



## The Deterrent

Oscar said:


> In that case the silver lining in all of this is that it is being integrated into operational usage.


Indeed, UCAV squadrons are now operational with PAF.


----------



## The Diplomat

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 339006
> great news


Any sources? Please post link. Thanks


----------



## Windjammer

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 339006
> great news


@Foxtrot-Bravo . Do you have any updates.... surely hope this is true.


----------



## mshan44

Lahore_PAF said:


> Any sources? Please post link. Thanks


it was posted by army personnel on twitter


----------



## Gryphon

One Saab AWACS damaged in Kamra attack was repaired sometime back. All four Saab AWACS are operational.

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## Ultima Thule

mshan44 said:


> it was posted by army personnel on twitter


fake news it is almost three days no press release from ISPR and PAF officials, how do you know its a army personal ? its someone's fake id pretending to be a army personal


----------



## GuardianRED

pakistanipower said:


> fake news it is almost three days no press release from ISPR and PAF officials, how do you its a army personal ? its someone's fake id pretending to be a army personal


if it is fake, why no press release from ISPR or PAF saying it is fake that there is no crash of the JF17 (it is all over social media)

Has anyone contacted SL Riwan and told him that such news is found?


----------



## Ultima Thule

GuardianRED said:


> if it is fake, why no press release from ISPR or PAF saying it is fake that there is no crash of the JF17 (it is all over social media)
> 
> Has anyone contacted SL Riwan and told him that such news is found?


Thats is i am thinking if there is a silence from ISPR or PAFso i believe than no such incident had happen


----------



## messiach

Very weird. No confirmation. 
The aircraft can go hypersonic 1.2+ very sustainably, without AD compromise. Its been tested for 1.8M
New planes get problems. Rus had problems at low-levels with Mig25-27 which is a very capable hypersonic jet.


----------



## Ultima Thule

messiach said:


> Very weird. No confirmation.
> The aircraft can go hypersonic 1.2+ very sustainably, without AD compromise. Its been tested for 1.8M
> New planes get problems. Rus had problems at low-levels with Mig25-27 which is a very capable hypersonic jet.


@Oscar look at this guy he is trolling, please delete his poost


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

messiach said:


> Very weird. No confirmation.
> The aircraft can go hypersonic 1.2+ very sustainably, without AD compromise. Its been tested for 1.8M
> New planes get problems. Rus had problems at low-levels with Mig25-27 which is a very capable hypersonic jet.


Supersonic not hypersonic

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## baqai

any updates on the situation? hope pilot is recovered and is safe and sound


----------



## messiach

pakistanipower said:


> @Oscar look at this guy he is trolling, please delete his poost


AoA, Introduce ur self plz!



Lord Of Gondor said:


> Supersonic not hypersonic


True. But there's lack of discontinuity in both flows.


----------



## Bossman

Rumor originated because the ongoing PAF exercise included a scenario about pilot being lost at sea to test PAF and PN SAR readiness. The posts on this forum were part of the scenario. I must say PAF has become really sophisticated


----------



## Raider 21

Bossman said:


> Rumor originated because the ongoing PAF exercise included a scenario about pilot being lost at sea to test PAF and PN SAR readiness. The posts on this forum were part of the scenario. I must say PAF has become really sophisticated


Interesting...


----------



## baqai

Bossman said:


> Rumor originated because the ongoing PAF exercise included a scenario about pilot being lost at sea to test PAF and PN SAR readiness. The posts on this forum were part of the scenario. I must say PAF has become really sophisticated



wtf? are you serious?


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

Bossman said:


> Rumor originated because the ongoing PAF exercise included a scenario about pilot being lost at sea to test PAF and PN SAR readiness. The posts on this forum were part of the scenario. I must say PAF has become really sophisticated


 Propaganda.


----------



## Ultima Thule

baqai said:


> wtf? are you serious?


It is a possibility Why not? Simulating SAR operations in the sea


----------



## SQ8

Bossman said:


> Rumor originated because the ongoing PAF exercise included a scenario about pilot being lost at sea to test PAF and PN SAR readiness. The posts on this forum were part of the scenario. I must say PAF has become really sophisticated


A jet has gone down but not what we suspect.


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## Bilal Khan 777

Oscar said:


> A jet has gone down but not what we suspect.



I think this matter will not sea the light of day or officially acknowledged. Thats how it will be. 
Peace to the soul of the flyer.

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## surya kiran

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I think this matter will not sea the light of day or officially acknowledged. Thats how it will be.
> Peace to the soul of the flyer.



I thought, the pilot was rescued safely?


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## Rafael

Oscar said:


> A jet has gone down but not what we suspect.



I hope not a teen.


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## T-72M1

eh, so did they rescue him (pilot in the pic with his little daughter) or did a crash never take place ?


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## Bratva

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I think this matter will not sea the light of day or officially acknowledged. Thats how it will be.
> Peace to the soul of the flyer.



Why is that ? When America acknowledges its F-22 crashes and the problems it faces, heck the news about certain pilots refusing to pilot F-22 made it to news. Talk about the accountability of the most classified plane on earth. Is JF-17 somehow surpasses F-22 ?

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## Bilal Khan 777

Bratva said:


> Why is that ? When America acknowledges its F-22 crashes and the problems it faces, heck the news about certain pilots refusing to pilot F-22 made it to news. Talk about the accountability of the most classified plane on earth. Is JF-17 somehow surpasses F-22 ?



Comparing Pakistan to the US is a falsehood I don't subscribe to. Why? Call Sohail, someone made him ACM, and ask him why he choses to keep matters quiet at the time of strict tension with the neighbor.

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## Fazeel.Q

can any one clarify over JFT Pilot aliveness or death - Still no way we are near to end the curiosity. Is this still a real or hide and seek planned!!!!!


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Comparing Pakistan to the US is a falsehood I don't subscribe to. Why? Call Sohail, someone made him ACM, and ask him why he choses to keep matters quiet at the time of strict tension with the neighbor.


We'll hear about it in the next issue of Air Forces monthly - they do report attrition to them all the time.

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## Bratva

Rumor going is It was 15-209 which went down.


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## air marshal

It is reported that the pilot had ejected safely.


http://www.deccanchronicle.com/worl...air-force-jf-17-crashes-into-arabian-sea.html

http://www.catchnews.com/world-news...have-crashed-into-arabian-sea-1475324392.html


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## khanasifm

air marshal said:


> It is reported that the pilot had ejected safely.
> 
> 
> http://www.deccanchronicle.com/worl...air-force-jf-17-crashes-into-arabian-sea.html
> 
> http://www.catchnews.com/world-news...have-crashed-into-arabian-sea-1475324392.html



No need tpost Indian sites , crashed or not , final statement is biased "design" issues 

Especially by folks who has not participate in any design and are making statements , not that I know if there is design issue or not but never believe anything coming out of South Asians (indo pak, bangla etc.)

Journalism at the lowest level

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## BlackOpsIndia

*ISLAMABAD: A commission has been formed to investigate why a Pakistani JF-17 Thunder jet crashed into the Arabian Sea earlier this week, Geo News has learnt.*

According to sources, the incident took place after pilot took off on a routine exercise flight from the Masroor Airbase in Karachi on Tuesday, September 27.

The pilot, however, stayed unhurt after he skillfully managed to eject before the aircraft crashed into water.

Sources say the commission will investigate the reasons behind the crash of the aircraft and will submit its findings which will become part of the Pakistan Air Force records.

The JF-17 aircraft series is Pakistan's own jet built jointly in collaboration with China.

https://www.geo.tv/latest/116515-Authorities-investigating-JF-17-crash-into-Arabia-Sea


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## air marshal

https://www.geo.tv/latest/116515-Authorities-investigating-JF-17-crash-into-Arabia-Sea


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## raj76

did i missed that or no one discussed this topic. its geo tv report
@Windjammer

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## SQ8

raj76 said:


> did i missed that or no one discussed this topic. its geo tv report
> @Windjammer


Happened at night over Arabian sea. Either flameout or kite(the bird) into intake.

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## Windjammer

raj76 said:


> did i missed that or no one discussed this topic. its geo tv report
> @Windjammer


It's been discussed in the dedicated thread from day one but obviously how can some Indians feel comfy without starting a new thread for every Pakistani incident.

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## The Sandman

Don't know *if *it is true or not but if it is than i am happy that at least pilot is safe.


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## raj76

Oscar said:


> Happened at night over Arabian sea. Either flameout or kite(the bird) into intake.


umm gd thing no casualties but wasnt covered due to all war mongering hype



Windjammer said:


> It's been discussed in the dedicated thread from day one but obviously how can some Indians feel comfy without starting a new thread for every Pakistani incident.


hey buddy its not crime to miss an topic and i didnt started i just reacted cause i didnt knew it happened no need to get upset


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## Windjammer

raj76 said:


> hey buddy its not crime to miss an topic and i didnt started i just reacted cause i didnt knew it happened no need to get upset


No dude I'm not blaming you, few threads were started when the news first came out and were moved into the dedicated section.

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## Jhon Smith

*https://safety.army.mil/Portals/0/D.../Standard/Accident_Investigators_Handbook.pdf
Accident Investigator's Handbook - U.S. Army Safety Center
https://safety.army.mil/.../REPORTINGANDINVESTIGATION/REPORTINGANDIN...
procedures to assist U.S. Army Accident Investigation/Installation-level accident (CAI/IAI) ... both aviation and non-aviation (ground) accidents. Unless otherwise.







Jet Accidents could have many reasons However PAC should investage it in order to keep JF-17 for buyers choice a good jet. Lockheed Martain keep update record of crashes in order to make jet more robust *
*Course structure *
*Aircraft Accident Investigation*

The course features lectures, tutorials and practical training, including a 3-day simulation of a transport accident investigation.
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In order to deliver a balanced training experience, the first three weeks of the course focuses on the fundamental skills required of an accident investigator by drawing upon the experiences of air, marine and rail transport investigators. The remaining three weeks concentrate on applying techniques to the specialised aspects of aircraft operations and includes a week-long simulated accident investigation where delegates can apply the new skills learned.

*Core content*
The six week course has two key modules:

*Module 1 –* *Fundamentals of Accident Investigation*


Legislation and Regulation
Appraisal of the Accident Site
Disaster Response
Recovery of Wreckage
Collection of Evidence
Accident Photography
Hazards Management on Site
Wreckage Recovery
Interviewing Techniques
Structures and Crashworthiness
Human Factors for Investigators
Media Management
Accident Pathology
Data Recorders and their Analysis
Analytical Techniques
Systemic Approach to Investigation
Managing Investigations
Liaising with Victims and their Families
Relations with the Regulator/Interested Parties
Developing and Managing Recommendations
Report Writing
Follow-Up Actions
Court Procedures for Investigators
*Module 2 – Applied Aircraft Accident Investigation*


Aircraft Structures
In-Flight Breakup and Flight Path Analysis
Helicopter Accidents
Light Aircraft Accidents
Investigation of Military Aircraft Accidents
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Powerplant Investigations
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*Upgrade to a professional qualification*
Successful completion of the course assessment will lead to a certificate which can be used towards our postgraduate programme in Safety and Accident Investigation.

*Who should attend*
The course is designed for those who may have to conduct or participate in an aircraft accident investigation. This may be in the role of official investigator for a State or as an accredited representative/technical advisor of a manufacturer, operator or service provider. Although the main focus of the course is the civil aviation industry, there is also considerable value for military personnel and there is always a significant military presence on the course.

Course delegates typically are fixed or rotary-wing pilots, engineers, safety specialists, air traffic controllers, human performance specialists and state accident investigators. All lectures and workshops will be in English and those without a thorough knowledge of English would be at a severe disadvantage. There are no formal qualifications for entry, but course numbers are limited and courses are often oversubscribed.

*Speakers*
One of the strengths of this course is that we bring together a world-class group of experts to share their experiences. This includes Inspectors of Accidents from the AAIB, MAIB and RAIB. We are also proud to feature experts from a range of areas vital to the process of accident investigation. These include specialists in:


 Accident investigation outside the UK
 Aeronautical Engineering
 Air Traffic Control
 Aircraft Manufacture
 Aviation Law and Court Procedures
 Aviation Psychology
 Aviation Pathology
 Investigative Interviewing
 Disaster Management and Family Assistance
 Media Relations
 Military Accident Investigation
 Safety Regulation
 Safety Management Systems
 Research and Development.
*Concessions*
Group discount Where three delegates or more are booking from within one site or one organisation, a discount of 10% will apply to the invoice for the course tuition fee. Accommodation fees are not included in the discount scheme. Please ask about our discount scheme at time of booking.
*Accommodation options and prices*
Accommodation is available at Mitchell Hall which is located on campus. All rooms are en-suite and bookings are on a half-board basis. If you would like to book accommodation for this short course at Mitchell Hall, please indicate this on the registration form and we will arrange this for you.

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*Location and travel*
Cranfield University is situated in Bedfordshire close to the border with Buckinghamshire. The University is located almost midway between the towns of Bedford and Milton Keynes and is conveniently situated between junctions 13 and 14 of the M1.

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## Areesh

T-72M1 said:


> eh, so did they rescue him (pilot in the pic with his little daughter) or did a crash never take place ?



Pilot has been rescued as per media.

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## TheNoob

Bossman said:


> Rumor originated because the ongoing PAF exercise included a scenario about pilot being lost at sea to test PAF and PN SAR readiness. The posts on this forum were part of the scenario. I must say PAF has become really sophisticated



Nah.
You dont use a damn functional jet to excercise that.

Its probably a techinical issue. 

Lets not forget, crash in JF17 is very rare.


----------



## YeBeWarned

Oscar said:


> Happened at night over Arabian sea. Either flameout or kite(the bird) into intake.



Any word on Pilot ?


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

No such accident happened


----------



## messiach

Oscar said:


> We'll hear about it in the next issue of Air Forces monthly - they do report attrition to them all the time.


I'll be interested to find the reason for crash, if it is indeed confirmed by paf.


----------



## Mrc

Windjammer said:


> Yes one aircraft missing since last night, there's a dedicated thread running.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/notify-paf-aircraft-crashes.3718/page-194




I was the most skepticle one...


----------



## Dazzler

BlackOpsIndia said:


> *ISLAMABAD: A commission has been formed to investigate why a Pakistani JF-17 Thunder jet crashed into the Arabian Sea earlier this week, Geo News has learnt.*
> 
> According to sources, the incident took place after pilot took off on a routine exercise flight from the Masroor Airbase in Karachi on Tuesday, September 27.
> 
> The pilot, however, stayed unhurt after he skillfully managed to eject before the aircraft crashed into water.
> 
> Sources say the commission will investigate the reasons behind the crash of the aircraft and will submit its findings which will become part of the Pakistan Air Force records.
> 
> The JF-17 aircraft series is Pakistan's own jet built jointly in collaboration with China.
> 
> https://www.geo.tv/latest/116515-Authorities-investigating-JF-17-crash-into-Arabia-Sea



There is a whole freaking thread to notify crashes under the airforce section. Cant you guys read? 

@Oscar , merge it please


----------



## SQ8

All PAF crash threads to be posted in the PAF aircraft crashes sticky. Future threads will be deleted without explanation.

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## BlackOpsIndia

Oscar said:


> All PAF crash threads to be posted in the PAF aircraft crashes sticky. Future threads will be deleted without explanation.


Is it PAF-specific rule or apply to every other airforce? Most of the time if any IAF jet crashes I see a Trollfest out there without any thread merging or deleting. Just asking no pun intended.

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## SQ8

BlackOpsIndia said:


> Is it PAF-specific rule or apply to every other airforce? Most of the time if any IAF jet crashes I see a Trollfest out there without any thread merging or deleting. Just asking no pun intended.


PAF specific. We have a dedicated thread for it.

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## Danish saleem

here in this forum few members think that these birds are from 70's.

The fact is yes F-7p drives from Mig-21's, but these birds and their air frames are not from 70s. Pakistan acquired F-7s, from china, in late 80,s, and n that time these birds were few year old, 

In 20's we acquired F-7PG's, which are absultly new birds, with new Engine, and Avon ices.

so perception that these birds are old are not true.


----------



## S.U.R.B.

That aircraft which crashed.Was that the 10-123 which had performed at the Paris airshow?

Three ACs were sent at the Paris airshow with their respective pilots.
10-123
13-143
13-146

Two of the pilots were mostly seen on the ground around their AC (as a representative) talking to the media and press.




Time stamp 00:25

One can't dismiss a coincidence though.


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## Areesh

Starlord said:


> Any word on Pilot ?



Rescued as per media.



surya kiran said:


> I thought, the pilot was rescued safely?



Yes he was. As per media.

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## YeBeWarned

Areesh said:


> Rescued as per media.



Alhamdulliah

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## Martin Kingsworth

Sir, these are all rumours. There has been no luck in locating the wreckage or the pilot.


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## fatman17

Pilot Ejects Safely Before Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder Crash

A PAKISTAN Air Force JF-17 Thunder is reported to have crashed … AFD

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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder
September 27th, 2016 
This JF-17 is reported to have crashed into the Arabian Sea while taking part in Exercise High Mark .


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## BilalSE

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder
> September 27th, 2016
> This JF-17 is reported to have crashed into the Arabian Sea while taking part in Exercise High Mark .



Whats new in this information.?



Areesh said:


> Pilot has been rescued as per media.



The pilot ejection which media is prorating has not any source of information which can confirms that pilot has ejected safely.
There is not any single information which has delivered from the forces official regarding any finding of jet along with the pilot into the Arabian sea.

Rescue mission still on progress.

The incident of JF-17 Thunder crashes was happened on 27th September 2016 at around 9:05 PM into Arabian sea.
The location of the incident as per Armed forces are at near Ormara.

Till the date of this incident happened the rescue mission is started according to the latest information not a single finding and clue has been provided to the family of Pilot.

We all wish and pray that Rescue mission can find out the Jet and Pilot alive and happiness comes again on the faces of there family and loved one's.


----------



## nomi007

no comments
just upset


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## Areesh

BilalSE said:


> The pilot ejection which media is prorating has not any source of information which can confirms that pilot has ejected safely.
> There is not any single information which has delivered from the forces official regarding any finding of jet along with the pilot into the Arabian sea.



Lets see. For now we have these media reports and we have to believe them until we find something else.


----------



## BilalSE

Fazeel.Q said:


> can any one clarify over JFT Pilot aliveness or death - Still no way we are near to end the curiosity. Is this still a real or hide and seek planned!!!!!





Fazeel.Q said:


> can any one clarify over JFT Pilot aliveness or death - Still no way we are near to end the curiosity. Is this still a real or hide and seek planned!!!!!



No further update. Pilot and Jet is still missing and rescue operation haven't been successful on finding any thing from the sea.
Pray for Pilot to return alive to his family.


----------



## hussain0216

Everyone is right to be upset but its just one of those things 

These things happen and will happen again

Just pray that when it does happen we learn and hope the pilot is safe


----------



## BilalSE

Areesh said:


> Lets see. For now we have these media reports and we have to believe them until we find something else.



its good to believe on these media reports and being as Muslims our faith is very strong and hopeful for any miracle with God wills.
The Good news is that the media has reported that the pilot ejected safely.
The Bad news is that the same media is unable to provide any evidence or any source for the pilot survival.

Still Hopefull.


----------



## Areesh

BilalSE said:


> its good to believe on these media reports and being as Muslims our faith is very strong and hopeful for any miracle with God wills.
> The Good news is that the media has reported that the pilot ejected safely.
> The Bad news is that the same media is unable to provide any evidence or any source for the pilot survival.
> 
> Still Hopefull.



The good news is that we don't have any other reason to doubt media report.


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## messiach

I think it was in 2003, july or august, F7 p variant carshed near attock. Inquiry was ordered. I was with an airforce establishment then. The report was quite comprehensive but i never got a followup review on recommendations till i left in 2005. These reports are never revealed in public domain.


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## R!CK

There is a higher probability that the pilot survived and the SAR operation is only taking time to find him. Please don't loose hope and pray to almighty for his good health. 

Good Day!

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## baqai

how much can a pilot survive in open sea? i guess the beacon also has a battery life, with tides and their history SAR can make a guess in which direction he might have drifted (if he haven't fought to move against the current), the area where he crashed, is that area prone to any sharks or other harmful creatures?

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## Sun.A

baqai said:


> how much can a pilot survive in open sea? i guess the beacon also has a battery life, with tides and their history SAR can make a guess in which direction he might have drifted (if he haven't fought to move against the current), the area where he crashed, is that area prone to any sharks or other harmful creatures?


----------



## salman-1

Why it has become a mystery on this forum only, if there had a search operation still going on, then it would have become a prime story on our media. I don't think pilot is still missing, why would Air Force not made any comment on that .


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

salman-1 said:


> Why it has become a mystery on this forum only, if there had a search operation still going on, then it would have become a prime story on our media. I don't think pilot is still missing, why would Air Force not made any comment on that .



There is a fair amount of skeptics here. There is a fair amount of well connected and serving uniform here as well. Hence the mystery.


----------



## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> There is a fair amount of skeptics here. There is a fair amount of well connected and serving uniform here as well. Hence the mystery.


So are you willing to let the cat out of the bag or are you going to play the "No comment " game.
Regards
A


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

araz said:


> So are you willing to let the cat out of the bag or are you going to play the "No comment " game.
> Regards
> A



Araz as I have told you many times, I have no information, only opinion.


----------



## araz

R!CK said:


> There is a higher probability that the pilot survived and the SAR operation is only taking time to find him. Please don't loose hope and pray to almighty for his good health.
> 
> Good Day!


If they have not located the pilot in 3 days on sea with a beacon and possible raft , then I am afraid we need to start to accept the inevitable that the pilot may have been lost. If the pilot had been rescued then the PAF would have announced it.
A


Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Araz as I have told you many times, I have no information, only opinion.


Bilal Khan 777As I have reiterated many a times it is your opinions which we want to listen to but in some details not the succinct and abbreviated style which leaves us a bit unsure .
A

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## salman-1

In both cases lost or found some statement should have come out of PAF.
The family of pilot must have spoken something . If Indian media had claimed of pilot eject, I think he must have been rescued , but Paf is just hiding info about the cause of crash and that is normal situation.


----------



## BilalSE

salman-1 said:


> Why it has become a mystery on this forum only, if there had a search operation still going on, then it would have become a prime story on our media. I don't think pilot is still missing, why would Air Force not made any comment on that .



Hi Salman it's 100℅ confirmed news that pilot is missing from the day the plane crashed.

It's not a hide and seek game where the official authorities are playing game with the family of Pilot.
This is very serious matter for all of us because it is true.



araz said:


> If they have not located the pilot in 3 days on sea with a beacon and possible raft , then I am afraid we need to start to accept the inevitable that the pilot may have been lost. If the pilot had been rescued then the PAF would have announced it.
> A
> 
> Bilal Khan 777As I have reiterated many a times it is your opinions which we want to listen to but in some details not the succinct and abbreviated style which leaves us a bit unsure .
> A



The main question which comes first in mind is that.
It's not about that pilot haven't been rescued it's about the rescue mission which are totally failed of finding any thing from this crash.
They are unable to find and part of the craft or anything which belongs to Pilot.

How we can admit anything without watching

We still are very hopeful


----------



## Bratva

Since we are talking about Disorientation of Pilots. Check the G-counter at upper left and altitude meter at right.


Obtained by Aviation Week, the declassified footage below shows the importance of Ground Collision Avoidance Technology (GCAT).

It was filmed from the HUD (Head-Up Display) of a U.S. Air Force Arizona ANG F-16 whose student pilot was rendered unconscious by high-G BFM (Basic Fighter Maneuver) up to 8.4g during a training flight.

With the pilot suffering G-induced loss of consciousness (G-LOC) the aircraft started an uncontrolled steep descent from 17,000 feet in full afterburner.

You can clearly hear the worried IP (Instructor Pilot) radio “Two, recover!”, three times as the aircraft, 55-degree nose down, thundered towards the ground at more than 600 knots.

When the aircraft seems to be destined to hit the ground, the Auto-GCAS detects the unusual attitude and executes a recovery maneuver at around 8,700 ft. and 650 kt, saving “Sully 2” from CFIT (Controlled Flight Into Terrain).





We have analysed GCAT in depth with an article by USAF Flight Surgeon, Capt Rocky ‘Apollo’ Jedick, last year.

As explained in that story, two of the most common human factors conditions that lead to death or loss of aircraft in combat aviation are spatial disorientation and G-induced loss of consciousness (G-LOC).

Spatial Disorientation is the inability to determine one’s position, location, and motion relative to their environment. The Pilot-Activated Recovery System (PARS) will save pilots suffering from recognized Spatial-D as long as the pilot remains able to activate the technology. If a pilot is spatially disoriented but remains unable to initiate PARS, Auto-GCAS should theoretically still save him/her from CFIT.

Auto-GCAS provokes inputs to the flight controls automatically without pilot initiation. The technology relies on sophisticated computer software, terrain maps, GPS and predictive algorithms that will ‘take the jet’ from the pilot when CFIT is predicted to be imminent.

Although Ground Collision Avoidance Technology has proved to save several lives (this is the fourth confirmed “save” by the Auto-GCAS system since the system was introduced in 2014 according to AW’s Guy Norris) it has some significant software and hardware limitations.

For example, as we highlighted last year, the system is not able to make inputs on the throttle. If the power reduction is required for the optimal recovery GCAT systems (as Auto-GCAS and PARS) might be unable to initiate recovery overriding the current throttle setting.

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## Bilal Khan 777

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> My question would be---why a single aircraft mission over the water mission---why not in pairs---.



What makes you think he went on the mission as single aircraft?


----------



## BilalSE

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> My question would be---why a single aircraft mission over the water mission---why not in pairs---.


The mission was in pair not Single.
The aircraft which was crashed was the leading aircraft in the mission.
During some point in mission 1 craft turn left and 2nd aircraft haven't turned and after few minutes this incident happened.
This means the junior pilot haven't seen the aircraft going down into sea.


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Because if it was a sortie of two---the other pilot would have circled around and kept a watch over the pilot who went down and transmitted the location to the base---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> But the location of the accident would then be easily narrowed down.
> 
> Why would they split over water---?



You make a lot of assumptions, and answering those will give away the details of the incident which is classified. Please don't interrogate this matter further. Thanks.

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## BilalSE

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Because if it was a sortie of two---the other pilot would have circled around and kept a watch over the pilot who went down and transmitted the location to the base---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> But the location of the accident would then be easily narrowed down.
> 
> Why would they split over water---?



They were unable to identify the correct position of Beacon signals into deep sea in first 3 days of rescue because the signal's of Beacon were sometime disappeared and sometime very weak that's why it's very difficult for them to plot the exact location in to deep sea and another thing beacon changes its location very fast due to the fast moments in sea.
This is the main reason they were unable to plot the coordinates of the beacon.

The sea Depth starts from 150meters to maximum 11000 meters and there is not any such technology we have to go on the deep Start point of sea.
The divers can only go down maximum 150meters and more than this the sea Water has high depression so the divers life can be in risk.


----------



## ConcealCarry

It takes just a few seconds to google the correct info 

For SCUBA divers on air, recreational diving sets a limit of _*40 meters*_ (_*130 feet*_) because of the risk of nitrogen narcosis, which is similar to nitrous oxide (laughing gas) intoxication at low levels (30-50 meters) but can cause death at high levels (100 meters).




BilalSE said:


> They were unable to identify the correct position of Beacon signals into deep sea in first 3 days of rescue because the signal's of Beacon were sometime disappeared and sometime very weak that's why it's very difficult for them to plot the exact location in to deep sea and another thing beacon changes its location very fast due to the fast moments in sea.
> This is the main reason they were unable to plot the coordinates of the beacon.
> 
> The sea Depth starts from 150meters to maximum 11000 meters and there is not any such technology we have to go on the deep Start point of sea.
> *The divers can only go down maximum 150meters* and more than this the sea Water has high depression so the divers life can be in risk.


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

ConcealCarry said:


> It takes just a few seconds to google the correct info
> 
> For SCUBA divers on air, recreational diving sets a limit of _*40 meters*_ (_*130 feet*_) because of the risk of nitrogen narcosis, which is similar to nitrous oxide (laughing gas) intoxication at low levels (30-50 meters) but can cause death at high levels (100 meters).



And I will correct you, that our navy as mixed gas diving capability beyond your traditional scuba air diving. The water around this area is easily between 300-1200 meters deep. This is beyond any human dive capability, and no point to dive unless you have the exact location using sonar.

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## ConcealCarry

I know what Pakistan navy's capabilities are, my post was not about that. It was in response to the person who mentioned 150 meters for a diver.



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> And I will correct you, that our navy as mixed gas diving capability beyond your traditional scuba air diving. The water around this area is easily between 300-1200 meters deep. This is beyond any human dive capability, and no point to dive unless you have the exact location using sonar.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Dangit---I was almost in bed---when this thought hit me---. I got up from the bed---came down stairs---turned on the lights---turned the computer on---and here it is.

Was it shot down by the americans---maybe it came too close to a U S naval battle group.

A simple crash is not classified---an engine malfunction is not classified---an alien encounter is classified---a head on collision with a U S fighter is classified---a confrontation with our enemy is classified---a missile strike is classified---.

Was there a sub doing funny things in our waters and once confronted---launched a missile at it?

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## Sine Nomine

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Dangit---I was almost in bed---when this thought hit me---. I got up from the bed---came down stairs---turned on the lights---turned the computer on---and here it is.
> 
> Was it shot down by the americans---maybe it came too close to a U S naval battle group.
> 
> A simple crash is not classified---an engine malfunction is not classified---an alien encounter is classified---a head on collision with a U S fighter is classified---a confrontation with our enemy is classified---a missile strike is classified---.
> 
> Was there a sub doing funny things in our waters and once confronted---launched a missile at it?


What is currently location of CBG.


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## VCheng

> ..................
> Was it shot down by the americans---maybe it came too close to a U S naval battle group.
> 
> A simple crash is not classified---an engine malfunction is not classified---an alien encounter is classified---a head on collision with a U S fighter is classified---a confrontation with our enemy is classified---a missile strike is classified---.
> 
> Was there a sub doing funny things in our waters and once confronted---launched a missile at it?



Such speculation is an indication of a _sick _mind for an incident like this. Let it rest, dude.

If PAF is silent, it must have its own good reasons for being so. I am sure all will be made known at the right time. If the pilot did not survive, then I wish him eternal peace, with gratitude for his service.


==================================

Edit: There are deep sea recovery options available from many sources internationally, if they are deemed to be necessary.

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## Rathor X

PAF probably lost aircraft and the pilot also and still not able to trace any wreckage to determine the cause of crash. That is why they are mum over it and I have notice many times in past too Pakistan armed forces keeps mum over some issues and never release the details which should be made public.


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## MastanKhan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Such speculation is an indication of a _sick _mind for an incident like this. Let it rest, dude.
> 
> If PAF is silent, it must have its own good reasons for being so. I am sure all will be made known at the right time. If the pilot did not survive, then I wish him eternal peace, with gratitude for his service.
> 
> 
> ==================================
> 
> Edit: There are deep sea recovery options available from many sources internationally, if they are deemed to be necessary.




Syed,

I would accept this stupidity from a 17 years old---. What is sick about a fighter aircraft loaded with weapons or other goodies being shot down in an area that is starting to get 'hot'.

Have courage to speak directly---.

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## VCheng

MastanKhan said:


> Syed,
> 
> I would accept this stupidity from a 17 years old---. What is sick about a fighter aircraft loaded with weapons or other goodies being shot down in an area that is starting to get 'hot'.
> 
> Have courage to speak directly---.



Where is the debris field, then, if your baseless conspiratorial speculation is to be given any credence? _You_, of all people, should know when not to try and score political points over a possible tragedy such as this. There are lots of commercial traffic and radio transcripts that clearly provide evidence against your baseless accusations.


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## MastanKhan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Where is the debris field, then, if your baseless conspiratorial speculation is to be given any credence? _You_, of all people, should know when not to try and score political points over a possible tragedy such as this. There are lots of commercial traffic and radio transcripts that clearly provide evidence against your baseless accusations.



Hi,

What do you mean debris field---what debris field---and what political points---? I thought you were smarter than that---. I don't post for political points.

Why don't you post the evidence from commercial traffic then---if it is there---.

It is a small aircraft---there is good chance there won't be any debris field at all. Many an F16's crashed into the great salt lake in the 80's---the standard examiner would report that there was no debris field---as if the plane got swallowed into a vortex---.

Paf is acting as it is a shameful act that an aircraft crashed---to hide the declaration would be like trying to hide the ' shame '.

And what is there to be shameful---fighter aircrafts crash.


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## VCheng

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What do you mean debris field---what debris field---and what political points---? I thought you were smarter than that---. I don't post for political points.
> 
> Why don't you post the evidence from commercial traffic then---if it is there---.
> 
> It is a small aircraft---there is good chance there won't be any debris field at all. Many an F16's crashed into the great salt lake in the 80's---the standard examiner would report that there was no debris field---as if the plane got swallowed into a vortex---.
> 
> Paf is acting as it is a shameful act that an aircraft crashed---to hide the declaration would be like trying to hide the ' shame '.
> 
> And what is there to be shameful---fighter aircrafts crash.



As long as you do not raise baseless speculations as you did previously of the plane being shot down (it was not), what you say about any response by PAF, or the the lack thereof, is fine by me. Even better, let us wait in silence, to give the family a chance to deal with this uncertain situation.


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## MastanKhan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> As long as you do not raise baseless speculations as you did previously of the plane being shot down (it was not), what you say about any response by PAF, or the the lack thereof, is fine by me. Even better, let us wait in silence, to give the family a chance to deal with this uncertain situation.



Hi,

I did not think that you were this simple.

When information does not come out---you can make an outrageous statement to put pressure on those not releasing the information and make them realize the stupidity of their actions.

It is old techniques used in cross examinations---.

And why are you defending pak military---you are not the one known for it.

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## VCheng

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I did not think that you were this simple.
> 
> When information does not come out---you can make an outrageous statement to put pressure on those not releasing the information and make them realize the stupidity of their actions.
> 
> It is old techniques used in cross examinations---.
> 
> And why are you defending pak military---you are not the one known for it.



Sir, please keep in mind that your outrageous statement will not be enough to move PAF to come clean, but will only further misguide the already lost fools here. Why even raise a possibility of murder rather than accident?

And you should know by now that I do not serve any pre-set or prescribed agendas - I only support what is correct and true. _Always_.

In this case, it can take time to find a plane in the featureless vastness of the sea. Give the SARR teams this time to do their job, and let the family know the result first and foremost. Once the mission is complete, we can talk about it.

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## ConcealCarry

Go back to sleep @MastanKhan , you need some rest after a long day



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Dangit---I was almost in bed---when this thought hit me---. I got up from the bed---came down stairs---turned on the lights---turned the computer on---and here it is.
> 
> Was it shot down by the americans---maybe it came too close to a U S naval battle group.
> 
> A simple crash is not classified---an engine malfunction is not classified---an alien encounter is classified---a head on collision with a U S fighter is classified---a confrontation with our enemy is classified---a missile strike is classified---.
> 
> Was there a sub doing funny things in our waters and once confronted---launched a missile at it?

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## Hell hound

ConcealCarry said:


> Go back to sleep @MastanKhan , you need some rest after a long day


we have to admit he got a solid point here.you normally don't classify a plane crash there is something fishy here(pardon my pun it was not intended)

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## syed_yusuf

There is nothing fishy, PAF lost a JFT. it wasn't announced for a while due to the impact of the loss.


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## VCheng

Is the Recovery Operation still underway or has it been declared to be over, officially? Has the family been notified of the result?


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## Hell hound

syed_yusuf said:


> There is nothing fishy, PAF lost a JFT. it wasn't announced for a while due to the impact of the loss.


pls show us the news or tweet where PAF/ISPR has accepted or announced the jft crash


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## syed_yusuf

Hell hound said:


> pls show us the news or tweet where PAF/ISPR has accepted or announced the jft crash



please check it out, it was announced last week


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## Hell hound

syed_yusuf said:


> please check it out, it was announced last week


it was more like a leak than announcement.PAF still haven't officially acknowledged the crash yet.
if they have pls share it.

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## Bratva

another erieye scandal in making to hide incompetency.

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## Hell hound

Bratva said:


> another erieye scandal in making to hide incompetency.


pardon my ignorance here but are you talking about recent jf 17 crash.if so i would love to hear your views on this matter too.


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## syed_yusuf

Bratva said:


> another erieye scandal in making to hide incompetency.


Like quite a few connected knows a lot more than press released. Take an advise, let it go. There was nothing wrong with JFT. let this saga die its death and move on.

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## Hell hound

syed_yusuf said:


> Like quite a few connected knows a lot more than press released. Take an advise, let it go. There was nothing wrong with JFT. let this saga die its death and move on.


brother the problem here is there was no press release what we got was leaked info PAf is still not acknowledging or denying the crash.this is the first time it is happening PAF has never hidden any crash before so why are they doing it now it was a simple fighter jet not a strategic plane like saab 2000.so why the secrecy and why should we let it go if something is wrong there should be transparency and accountability from the PAF side like it was in first jf 17 crash.our armed forces has bad habit of hiding the info that should be released to the public in the first place to avoid the generation of feelings of lack trust on armed forces in public and same thing is happening now again.

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## VCheng

Hell hound said:


> brother the problem here is there was no press release what we got was leaked info PAf is still not acknowledging or denying the crash.this is the first time it is happening PAF has never hidden any crash before so why are they doing it now it was a simple fighter jet not a strategic plane like saab 2000.so why the secrecy and why should we let it go if something is wrong there should be transparency and accountability from the PAF side like it was in first jf 17 crash.our armed forces has bad habit of hiding the info that should be released to the public in the first place to avoid the generation of feelings of lack trust on armed forces in public and same thing is happening now again.



Whether anything is acknowledged in public or not, any buyers of the JF17 will be looking at the incident very closely. @araz any comments, Sir?


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## Bratva

Hell hound said:


> pardon my ignorance here but are you talking about recent jf 17 crash.if so i would love to hear your views on this matter too.



PAF only hide news when they want to cover up their blunders. Simple is that. It will take time just as the first crash of JF-17 was declared a bird hit by the so called members with insider sources or erieye saga, after 2-3 years we will know whats up



syed_yusuf said:


> Like quite a few connected knows a lot more than press released. Take an advise, let it go. There was nothing wrong with JFT. let this saga die its death and move on.



Do you even hear yourself what you are saying ?

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## syed_yusuf

Hell hound said:


> brother the problem here is there was no press release what we got was leaked info PAf is still not acknowledging or denying the crash.this is the first time it is happening PAF has never hidden any crash before so why are they doing it now it was a simple fighter jet not a strategic plane like saab 2000.so why the secrecy and why should we let it go if something is wrong there should be transparency and accountability from the PAF side like it was in first jf 17 crash.our armed forces has bad habit of hiding the info that should be released to the public in the first place to avoid the generation of feelings of lack trust on armed forces in public and same thing is happening now again.



What are you going to do if you know the fact in bit more detail, PAF lost the bird and the pilot. end of the story. everything else is totally unnecessary. there are things that are beyond arm chair analysts like you and me. again, not a big news, neither a cover-up, just move on. there is nothing to dig.

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## Hell hound

syed_yusuf said:


> What are you going to do if you know the fact in bit more detail, PAF lost the bird and the pilot. end of the story. everything else is totally unnecessary. there are things that are beyond arm chair analysts like you and me. again, not a big news, neither a cover-up, just move on. there is nothing to dig.


so why the hesitation then on PAFs part.


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## syed_yusuf

Hell hound said:


> so why the hesitation then on PAFs part.



There are things beyond common man understanding and explanation.


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## Mrc

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Whether anything is acknowledged in public or not, any buyers of the JF17 will be looking at the incident very closely. @araz any comments, Sir?




plane has been flying since 2004... if true this is second crash....

rafaele crashed 4 times in same period..

this is not reason for hiding this news


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## araz

Hell hound said:


> so why the hesitation then on PAFs part.


People.
PAF is currently not acknowledging the loss. Lets wait till it does. The more you persevere the more conspiracies will be generated and it will get us no where. The people in the know are not going to talk. Lets leave it at that.
A

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## VCheng

araz said:


> People.
> PAF is currently not acknowledging the loss. Lets wait till it does. The more you persevere the more conspiracies will be generated and it will get us no where. The people in the know are not going to talk. Lets leave it at that.
> A



Does PAF have the necessary deep sea recovery facilities accessible, if not locally available?


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## Irfan Baloch

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Does PAF have the necessary deep sea recovery facilities accessible, if not locally available?


yes they do and they have Pakistan navy at their disposal.

my guess is that the pilot didnt survive the crash . either he couldnt bail out or maybe he was missing floation devices in his seat or they didnt work and drowned he out of exhaustion 

had he or his body been returned then the news would have been out by now it just cant be hidden or suppressed



Roybot said:


> Maybe the pilot defected


yea sure
defected to the dolphin kingdom.
makes sense



MastanKhan said:


> Syed,
> 
> I would accept this stupidity from a 17 years old---. What is sick about a fighter aircraft loaded with weapons or other goodies being shot down in an area that is starting to get 'hot'.
> 
> Have courage to speak directly---.


I think Americans will announce such transgression and their reaction to it. American Naval fleet is parked in Bahrain and quiet deep in the sea well beyond the range of a lone JF-17. unless if it was meant to be a one way trip to achieve whatever

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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> yes they do and they have Pakistan navy at their disposal.
> 
> my guess is that the pilot didnt survive the crash . either he couldnt bail out or maybe he was missing floation devices in his seat or they didnt work and drowned he out of exhaustion
> 
> had he or his body been returned then the news would have been out by now it just cant be hidden or suppressed



I hope that the family is informed of their loved one as soon as possible., and I am sure that every effort will made to recover the downed aviator.

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## IHK_PK

So still no news or statement regarding the downed jet and it's pilot's remains. Alaaaas!


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## Irfan Baloch

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> I hope that the family is informed of their loved one as soon as possible., and I am sure that every effort will made to recover the downed aviator.


Americans have a good presence in the area. contrary to the hostilities on media and web.. the navies cooperate with each other.. the US fleet would have ordered its vessels to look out for the pilot as well but there is complete blackout.

I agree that the family normally is the first to know and if it was been told to keep quiet then the news will be formally made about Pilot being MBD. missing believed dead

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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> Americans have a good presence in the area. contrary to the hostilities on media and web.. the navies cooperate with each other.. the US fleet would have ordered its vessels to look out for the pilot as well but there is complete blackout.
> 
> I agree that the family normally is the first to know and if it was been told to keep quiet then the news will be formally made about Pilot being MBD. missing believed dead



I am sure that the US forces will help in any way they can in this matter. The reasons for the blackout will be clear once the matter has been resolved. As of now, there is no urgency except the recovery of the pilot. All the other considerations can wait.


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## syed zia Hassan

FT5 Jet. crashed on 29th July 1986 at Mainwali Air base. Pilot Office Zia Hassan Shaheed and Flt Lt. Abbas Patiwala did not received any injuries ..


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## Mav3rick

Another Mirage crashes. These are getting notorious now, must ground all Mirages.


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## dilpakistani

Man ... they are really falling quickly now


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## rashid.sarwar

We are getting "India Pakistan bhai bhai" in this regard.....

Both are flying "flying coffins"


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## Windjammer

Try to understand that presently due to ongoing exercises, these aircrafts are being pushed beyond limits.

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## Zarvan

Windjammer said:


> Try to understand that presently due to ongoing exercises, these aircrafts are being pushed beyond limits.



Pushing 40 year old Jets beyond limit is not only stupid but reckless. We need to get rid of them fast and for that even if we get 40 High Jets the won't be enough. So we also need to consider either JH-7 B or J-10 C

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## The Accountant

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage jet crashed near Karachi's Musharraf Colony area on Tuesday, police said.

"A Mirage plane crashed near Musharraf colony," Senior Superintendent Police city confirmed.

Squadron leader Baqir Ali reported that an aircraft of the PAF took off from Masroor Base and crashed during flight at Musharraf Colony.

Rescue teams have reached the site of the crash.


http://www.dawn.com/news/1290726/paf-mirage-jet-crashes-in-karachi-police


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## Zain Iqbal 1081

Tale# 912 , Mirage, 2x pilots, - media reports


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## barbarosa

Any information about pilot,please info someone.


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## dilpakistani

What about Pilot... just heard that he got martyred in the crash


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## raihans

Prayers to Allah Almighty for safety of pilot(s) and people on ground

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## Gryphon

F-7P's & Mirage (non-ROSE) are now our own "flying coffins". PAF should at least ground all F-7P's.

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## The Sandman

God again? i hope pilots are safe man these old planes are becoming dangerous.

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## Zee-shaun

PAF should lease new F-7's from China to temporarily replace these flying coffins.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Pilot Shaheed. May Allah bless his soul.

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## The Sandman

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Pilot Shaheed. May Allah bless his soul.


Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un  
another precious life lost and some idiot a*** are barking about "tax payer's money"

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## Morse_Code

the pilot Wing Cdr Fayyaz is martyred. May Allah grant him eternal peace Ameen

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## baajey

hope the pilots are safe.

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## Bravo Lion

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un

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## Morse_Code

Zain Iqbal 1081 said:


> Tale# 912 , Mirage, 2x pilots, - media reports


Was there any other pilot too? can you confirm?


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## ejaz007

RIP brave warrior.


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## GreenFalcon

On tv, they are saying that its a Trainer Jet, does that still make it a mirage?
http://www.92newshd.tv/paf-trainer-jet-crashes-in-karachi/
http://www.awaztoday.pk/News-Talk-S...et-crashed-near-Musharraf-Colony-Karachi.aspx

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## Mentee

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un


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## Nilgiri

RIP.

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## Windjammer

There is a dedicated section for PAF crashes , why do you need to open a new thread .
In any case it was a Mirage from 22 OCU tail no 910.
There's conflicting news, some sources claiming that W/C Fayaz ejected safely.


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## barbarosa

ALLAH AL MIGHTY grant him place in jannat al firdos Ameen.


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## Devil Soul

*Pilot killed as PAF Mirage jet crashes in Karachi*
By Faraz Khan
Published: October 18, 2016
16SHARES
SHARE TWEET EMAIL





The plane took off from Masroor Base, before it crashed in Musharraf Colony. PHOTO: EXPRESS

KARACHI: A pilot of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was killed on Tuesday as his Mirage jet crashed near Karachi’s Musharraf Colony.

According to Squadron leader Baqir Ali, PAF Mirage jetbearing tale number 921 took off from Masroor Base, before it crashed near Musharraf Colony. The pilot died on the spot, police officials stated.

“A Mirage plane crashed near Musharraf colony,” Senior Superintendent Police city confirmed.

*Pilot killed as PAF fighter jet crashes in Khyber Agency*

“The pilot ejected from the aircraft and sustained fatal injuries,” PAF spokesperson said in a statement, adding that though the pilot did not survive himself, he “succeeded in saving precious lives on ground.”

“No loss of civilian life or property has been reported. A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident,” the statement read.

Last month, a PAF pilot was killed as his fighter jet crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency. “The pilot of the aircraft Flt Lt Omer Shazad sustained fatal injuries,” the military’s media wing ISPR said. The PAF aircraft was on a routine operational training mission.

*Military helicopter crashes in Hunza*

Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault. Speaking to_The Express Tribune, _a senior official of the political administration said, “A team of Swat scouts and Levis officials have been sent to the site of the incident.”

*Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un*


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## raihans

إِنَّا للهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ‎‎


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## Rupeshkumar

Really hope that contradictory reports are correct and Pilot is safe !


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## Zee-shaun

Why didn't they eject?


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## Salza

We have lost so many pilots recently just because of flying these obsolete junks. Will somebody question Air chief here ? whats going wrong with our pilots/training and skill level as a whole ? Why so many crashes are occurring in the last 2-3 years. This is really embarrassing no matter how much we try to ignore it especially when we taunt IAF and their crashes. I think label of flying coffins should be passed over to PAF from IAF now.

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## HSM

The nation is sick of all this subjective BS. Even during interviews all we hear is narrative such as We are ready and this and that, All BS. What are our military planners doing and can they ever speak in objective terms and tell us that they can defend us because if they can defend us partially then there is no point in wasting the 8 billion we spend? Since 1947 we are hearing that we are poor and our policy is defensive and that we cannot spend and BS.


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## Dawood Ibrahim

KARACHI: A pilot of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was killed on Tuesday as his Mirage jet crashed near Karachi’s Musharraf Colony.

According to Squadron leader Baqir Ali, PAF Mirage jetbearing tale number 921 took off from Masroor Base, before it crashed near Musharraf Colony. The pilot died on the spot, police officials stated.

“A Mirage plane crashed near Musharraf colony,” Senior Superintendent Police city confirmed.

*Pilot killed as PAF fighter jet crashes in Khyber Agency*

“The pilot ejected from the aircraft and sustained fatal injuries,” PAF spokesperson said in a statement, adding that though the pilot did not survive himself, he “succeeded in saving precious lives on ground.”

“No loss of civilian life or property has been reported. A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident,” the statement read.

Last month, a PAF pilot was killed as his fighter jet crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency. “The pilot of the aircraft Flt Lt Omer Shazad sustained fatal injuries,” the military’s media wing ISPR said. The PAF aircraft was on a routine operational training mission.

*Military helicopter crashes in Hunza*

Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault. Speaking to_The Express Tribune, _a senior official of the political administration said, “A team of Swat scouts and Levis officials have been sent to the site of the incident.”

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1201845/pilot-killed-paf-aircraft-crashes-karachi/


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## B2B

Salman Zahidi said:


> We have lost so many pilots recently just because of flying these junks. Will somebody question Air chief here ? whats going wrong with our pilots/training and skill level as a whole ? Why so many crashes are occurring in the last 2-3 years. This is really embarrassing no matter how much we try to ignore it especially when we taunt IAF and their crashes. I think label of flying coffins should be passed over to PAF from IAF now.



Sad to see that many of the members in this forum refer to your front-line fighter jets as junks/flying coffins and so on.
It's infact derogatory to the makers who built these jets , the and engineers who care for them, the soldiers who use these machines to defend your frontiers.
Media sensationalism apart its not good to refer to something as " flying coffins " just because there have been poor performance and recent crashes.

The recent rise in crashes for PAF in my opinion is directly related to the higher number of sorties since the Indian hostilities.

You cant crash a jet if you don't fly it .

Peace and salute to the pilot who gave his life to defend your country.

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## Zain Malik

Plz Edit your thread title....
He Martyred not killed RIP

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## Taygibay

I can't wait for reports. I suppose he was near the ground 
since ejection did not save him. That's one disadvantage
of older jets : lacking a zero-zero pop-up seat.

In any case, R.I.P. brother, eternal thanks for your service,
Tay.

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## EyelessInGaza

RIP. My condolences to his family.


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## Mystery

Taygibay said:


> I can't wait for reports. I suppose he was near the ground
> since ejection did not save him. That's one disadvantage
> of older jets : lacking a zero-zero pop-up seat.
> 
> In any case, R.I.P. brother, eternal thanks for your service,
> Tay.


All Pakistani jet retro fitted with zero zero ejection seats but most of the times Pakistani pilots don't wants to eject over populated area and to save civilians the prefer to give their lives.

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## skybolt

إِنَّا للهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ‎‎


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## Max

RIP brother..

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## Peaceful Civilian

RIP .... Sad news

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## Zain Malik

https://www.geo.tv/latest/118132-PAF-Mirage-crashes-in-Karachi


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## PakShaheen79

Innna Lillah hi Wa Inna Alihe Rajioon. Time to expedite Mirage and F-7 replacements.

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## Syed Taha Wajahat

May Allah bless his soul. Rest in Peace brother. You served your country very well and we are thankful for that.

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## Reichsmarschall

Zain Malik said:


> Plz Edit your thread title....
> He Martyred not killed RIP


*And say not of those who are killed in the Way of Allh, "They are dead." Nay, they are living, but you* *perceive (it) not. [Al-Baqrah, vers 154]"*

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## Mystery

Zee-shaun said:


> Why didn't they eject?


Pakistani pilots don't eject despite orders over heavily populated areas to save the civilians, they always prefer to give their lives for Pakistan and Pakistanis.

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## aliyusuf

May Allah grant his soul peace & Jannah for his shahadat ... and fortitude and solace to his bereaved family members.

According to Express-Tribune the a/c had the serial number 921 ... which means it was one of the ex-Lebanese vintage Mirage-IIIEL ... the ex-Lebanese Mirages have the 900s series numbers.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1201845/pilot-killed-paf-aircraft-crashes-karachi/

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## Ghazwa e Hind

A Mirage aircraft from Pakistan Airforce's Number 22 Ghazis Squadron crashed near Mauripur this morning. Wing Commander Fayyaz martyred in the result of the crash.

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## Mystery



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## Mystery

aliyusuf said:


> May Allah grant his soul peace & Jannah for his shahadat ... and fortitude and solace to his bereaved family members.
> 
> According to Express-Tribune the a/c had the serial number 921 ... which means it was one of the ex-Lebanese vintage Mirage-IIIEL ... the ex-Lebanese Mirages have the 900s series numbers.


Did they are upgraded to ROSE standards?


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## Sheikh Rauf

is this the 2nd crash of the day?


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## Mystery




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## The Eagle

@WAJsal @waz @Aether 

Kindly merge the thread here.

https://defence.pk/threads/mirage-f...-wng-cmd-fayyaz-martyred.456565/#post-8824089

Thanks.

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## The Eagle

Kindly avoid creating separate thread that we already have a thread running based upon the same news and subject. Thanks.

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## Syed Taha Wajahat

Zain Malik said:


> Plz Edit your thread title....
> He Martyred not killed RIP


this happen when you copy paste everything without reading it.

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## X-2.

Doordie said:


> KARACHI: A pilot of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was killed on Tuesday as his Mirage jet crashed near Karachi’s Musharraf Colony.
> 
> According to Squadron leader Baqir Ali, PAF Mirage jetbearing tale number 921 took off from Masroor Base, before it crashed near Musharraf Colony. The pilot died on the spot, police officials stated.
> 
> “A Mirage plane crashed near Musharraf colony,” Senior Superintendent Police city confirmed.
> 
> *Pilot killed as PAF fighter jet crashes in Khyber Agency*
> 
> “The pilot ejected from the aircraft and sustained fatal injuries,” PAF spokesperson said in a statement, adding that though the pilot did not survive himself, he “succeeded in saving precious lives on ground.”
> 
> “No loss of civilian life or property has been reported. A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident,” the statement read.
> 
> Last month, a PAF pilot was killed as his fighter jet crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency. “The pilot of the aircraft Flt Lt Omer Shazad sustained fatal injuries,” the military’s media wing ISPR said. The PAF aircraft was on a routine operational training mission.
> 
> *Military helicopter crashes in Hunza*
> 
> Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault. Speaking to_The Express Tribune, _a senior official of the political administration said, “A team of Swat scouts and Levis officials have been sent to the site of the incident.”
> 
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/1201845/pilot-killed-paf-aircraft-crashes-karachi/


Rip brother 
So many incidents now a days...


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## aliyusuf

Mystery said:


> Did they are upgraded to ROSE standards?



As per my knowledge, only the 500s serial numbered Mirage-IIIEAs (ex-Australian vintage) under went the ROSE-I upgrade.

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## Muhammad Omar

RIP Pilot... 

We Need to Retire Mirages and F-7P ASAP... 

Buy New Planes Like J-11D or J-10C

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## Thunder Bolt

*Wing Commander Fayyaz shaheed - October 18, 2016*







*May Allah Bless Him With Higher Ranks In Jannah ........*

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## !eon

When jets in hand of Wing Commander rank officers start going down, they need to be replaced.

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## shhh

Doordie said:


> KARACHI: A pilot of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was killed on Tuesday as his Mirage jet crashed near Karachi’s Musharraf Colony.
> 
> According to Squadron leader Baqir Ali, PAF Mirage jetbearing tale number 921 took off from Masroor Base, before it crashed near Musharraf Colony. The pilot died on the spot, police officials stated.
> 
> “A Mirage plane crashed near Musharraf colony,” Senior Superintendent Police city confirmed.
> 
> *Pilot killed as PAF fighter jet crashes in Khyber Agency*
> 
> “The pilot ejected from the aircraft and sustained fatal injuries,” PAF spokesperson said in a statement, adding that though the pilot did not survive himself, he “succeeded in saving precious lives on ground.”
> 
> “No loss of civilian life or property has been reported. A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident,” the statement read.
> 
> Last month, a PAF pilot was killed as his fighter jet crashed in Jamrud, Khyber Agency. “The pilot of the aircraft Flt Lt Omer Shazad sustained fatal injuries,” the military’s media wing ISPR said. The PAF aircraft was on a routine operational training mission.
> 
> *Military helicopter crashes in Hunza*
> 
> Officials claim the aircraft crashed due to a technical fault. Speaking to_The Express Tribune, _a senior official of the political administration said, “A team of Swat scouts and Levis officials have been sent to the site of the incident.”
> 
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/1201845/pilot-killed-paf-aircraft-crashes-karachi/



Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi rajioon.

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## Danish saleem

we just came here share our condolences and then forgot, we just keep in that mind that Pilot was someone's son, a brother, and husband and a father of some, their lives will be changed completely in just a moment.

how can we fill the space of a father of his child, a husband of his wife. a son of his mother and father.

May Allah grant his soul in peace.

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## Preacher

Eventually Mirages would be retired and replaced by JF17s. PAF ac are maintained according to highest practises of maintenance. I believe last November mirage accident was mechanical problem and pilots wanted to save the aircraft at all costs against clear cut instructions to eject at 2000 AGL. It is generally the urge to save ac that leads to fatal accidents. There are many glorious examples where to avoid populated area pilot delayed ejection and got martyred. This Mirage accident it is too early to comment. It could be human factor or weather or mechanical malfunction. Best is to wait for Inquiry Report. Our senior commanders lead from the front and hence fly a lot.

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## Taygibay

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=190723



Mystery said:


> All Pakistani jet retro fitted with zero zero ejection seats but most of the times Pakistani pilots don't wants to eject over populated area and to save civilians the prefer to serve give their lives.



You're right, I should have been clearer :
I believe the pilot maneuvered to avoid civilian zones.
However ...

The Mirage 921 of the Bandits was a ROSE1 upgrade.
I know the MB Mk10 is supposed to be a Zero-Zero but
it just cannot save you except at level attitude near ground.
Forget ejecting closing fast in a spiral which is always though
in any case. It just cannot compare with an MB Mk16 or any
with electronic sequencer and so on.

That's no flaw by the engineers of PAC or anything like that,
it's just an age related problem as those have reached their
initially planned retirement date ( 2010-15 max. ).

Good day to you under the circumstances, Tay.

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## Mystery

Muhammad Omar said:


> F-7P


They are quite new and probably will serve 10 more years.


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## Pakistani sipahi

May Allah Accept him as a Shaheed of highest level .


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## Muhammad Omar

Mystery said:


> They are quite new and probably will serve 10 more years.



Please.... till 2020 PAF needs to replace 200+ Aircraft (Mirage and F-7PG) Currently JF-17 is replacing F-7PG and you are saying that they can serve more 10 years... 

Result gonna be more crashes


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## GiG

Zain Malik said:


> Plz Edit your thread title....
> He Martyred not killed RIP


forcing young pilots to fly 40-50 years old jets is killing ,when PAF will realise the worth of young Pilots over obsolete fleet?


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## Mystery

GiG said:


> forcing young pilots to fly 40-50 years old jets is killing



No body forcing anyone, They himself proudly accept to serve Pakistan till death.

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## barbarosa

Mystery said:


> No body forcing anyone, They himself proudly accept to serve Pakistan till death.


It does not means to wast the precious lives of the pilots.
PAF pilots should martyr in the war, not to kill them in the 50 60 years old air crafts. It is their aim.

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## fitpOsitive

I am sure that pilot, the son of Pakistan, was trying his level best to save the plane to a limit, that he forgot about ejecting and saving his own life. 
Why don't we ground them all?


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## hacker J

all of a sudden PAF has started seeing these unfaithful crashes is it because of PAF is straning already old aircrafts too much suddenly ?


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## Qamar shah1

GiG said:


> forcing young pilots to fly 40-50 years old jets is killing ,when PAF will realise the worth of young Pilots over obsolete fleet?


PAF don't have much funds how they can replace all old aircraft. still we have near 75 JF. I think it will take more time to replace mirages and F7P. Because PAF is also thinking for 5th generation it will take more funds.


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## Mughal-Prince

RIP to Shaheed ...

I am seriously PISSED OFF and calling names but restraints here.
We had left M2K for nothing. We could have these in PAF and flying. We are still flying Mirages and could be replaced with M2K which is much safe option to operate.


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## I S I

RIP

What the heck is going on? PAF top brass should be accountable for the loss of precious lives.


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## Mystery

barbarosa said:


> It does not means to wast the precious lives of the pilots.
> PAF pilots should martyr in the war, not to kill them in the 50 60 years old air crafts. It is their aim.


These jets are well maintained and upgraded most of them, As per standards they are safe for flying and performing mission but crashes happens in every air force even F-22 grounded many times.


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## Taygibay

hacker J said:


> all of a sudden PAF has started seeing these unfaithful crashes is it because of PAF is straning already old aircrafts too much suddenly ?



Not to much or suddenly, my young friend. It is what ageing is about.
Near its end of service life, an aircraft is like an old athlete : there is a
wear and tear accumulation and where when he was young, a small 
injury came once a season, he is now at risk in every game.



Qamar shah1 said:


> PAF don't have much funds how they can replace all old aircraft. still we have near 75 JF. I think it will take more time to replace mirages and F7P.



Except that the Thunders are supposed to replace the ChMiGs only.
There is no clear path to replacing the Mirages.



Mughal-Prince said:


> We had left M2K for nothing. We could have these in PAF and flying. We are still flying Mirages and could be replaced with M2K which is much safe option to operate.



Hum! Yummy!
I was following talks on a French mil/def forum recently about that.
That M2000 line could be sold and revived, technically at least. If you
remember well, it was offered after closing to India at the MRCA initial
stage and they declined to protect the Tejas.

Advantages include the strong cell which if built anew from scratch in
Pakistan could be a great base, ownership of the type is a natural follow-
through on the Mirage III ... but with quite a technological jump and ...
turning history's table on the neighbours.

I don't think it is likely to happen sadly. The biggest counter-point being the
amountS of money it would take, one should see that most industrial tools
don't exist anymore ( $ ) ... this can only work if ancillary equipment is top
of line and up to date ( $ ) with any local development costing more than
imports ( $ ).

Unless the so-called _fifth gen_ comes around, increases in Thunders & Vipers
is the path of least resistance cash-wise.

Great day all, Tay.

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## Asimzranger

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


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## [Bregs]

Putting these 40 yrs old fighters to limits in excesses because of tensions with India is no excuse to risk the precious lives of pilots

RIP pilot who sacrificed his life while practicing on older planes


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## Taimur Khurram

hacker J said:


> all of a sudden PAF has started seeing these unfaithful crashes is it because of PAF is straning already old aircrafts too much suddenly ?



They can't fly forever, they are old. Even the ones that have been upgraded are still prone to crashing due to age.


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## ADIL SHERDIL

Its about time we get rid of these antiques. No need for sending our pilots in these planes.
Heart felt condolences to the family of this hero. May Allah give them courage to face this hard time.


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## coffee_cup

Inna Lillah hi wa Inna Ilahi raj'un


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## Secret Service

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


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## nair

May his soul rest in peace.....


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## baqai

the location (Mauripur) is not far from base maybe 2-5 mins flying or less,i guess he was either trying to achieve his flight level after take off or was coming down for landing in either cases i guess what ever incident happened, it happened at low altitude, any possibility of bird strike and engine flame out?

Edit: I checked Google maps to be sure, the crash site is around 15km away from the base, considering the average cruise speed of Mirage is around 900km/h it's hardly 1-2 minutes flight time


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## barbarosa

Mystery said:


> These jets are well maintained and upgraded most of them, As per standards they are safe for flying and performing mission but crashes happens in every air force even F-22 grounded many times.


First Mirage 3 was built in 1958,
Pakistan get these air crafts in 1967, at that time its age was 9 years only.
Since then we are operating them with havy MAKE UP, ROSE 1,2,3.
How can we make 60 years old woman or man as a young girl or boy by MAKE UP?
Why we have keep our selves in the deceptions?


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## Mystery

barbarosa said:


> First Mirage 3 was built in 1958,
> Pakistan get these air crafts in 1967, at that time its age was 9 years only.
> Since then we are operating them with havy MAKE UP, ROSE 1,2,3.
> How can we make 60 years old woman or man as a young girl or boy by MAKE UP?
> Why we have keep our selves in the deceptions?


Not all these Mirage jets were that old only Mirage 3 early version are made in early 60s, We are operating Mirage 3 and 5 as well will eventually being replaced by JF-17 very soon but Only few ROOSE upgraded will serve little longer.


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## Zarvan

The Pilot who got martyered today

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## YeBeWarned

Mirages are coming close to get the title of Flying Coffins for PAF pilots .. RIP


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## Thunder Bolt

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1079929118781048





*Mirages Getting back to base after routine sortie *
This machine served a lot and accident can happen any where but one should keep these things in mind that

No sortie or operation is carried without complete check up of the jet
Technicians and Engineers try their best to keep machine in best flying condition

During technical faults pilots go for best possible solution and judgment 

So any machine can catch failure any where any time .Change and replacement always takes time 
So these mirages and PGs will also take time to be retired

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## skybolt

Thunder Bolt said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1079929118781048
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mirages Getting back to base after routine sortie
> This machine served a lot and accident can happen any where but one should keep these things in mind that
> 
> No sortie or operation is carried without complete check up of the jet
> Technicians and Engineers try their best to keep machine in best flying condition
> 
> During technical faults pilots go for best possible solution and judgment
> 
> So any machine can caught failure any where any time .Change and replacement always takes time
> So these mirages and PGs will also take time to be retired


Totally agreed


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## Lavrentiy

I S I said:


> RIP
> 
> What the heck is going on? PAF top brass should be accountable for the loss of precious lives.


My dear "I S I", don't talk about accountability. Otherwise the real ISI will knock at your door...........


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## GiG

Qamar shah1 said:


> PAF don't have much funds how they can replace all old aircraft. still we have near 75 JF. I think it will take more time to replace mirages and F7P. Because PAF is also thinking for 5th generation it will take more funds.





Mystery said:


> No body forcing anyone, They himself proudly accept to serve Pakistan till death.


After 4 years of training pilots were given thin 40-50 years old jet what option do they have obey orders or face strict disciplinary punishments. 
Flight safety should be number one priority of PAF, PAF is losing Mirages every 2-3 months now at least PAF leadership should ground the fleet until completion of investigation a standard practice in whole world


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## I S I

Lavrentiy said:


> My dear "I S I", don't talk about accountability. Otherwise the real ISI will knock at your door...........


huh?


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## Mystery

GiG said:


> After 4 years of training pilots were given thin 40-50 years old jet what option do they have obey orders or face strict disciplinary punishments.
> Flight safety should be number one priority of PAF, PAF is losing Mirages every 2-3 months now at least PAF leadership should ground the fleet until completion of investigation a standard practice in whole world


F-16 were also nearly 35 years old still serving very well and probably would serve well more 10 years (early blocks), Any jet PAF is using very well maintained and inspected each and ever time before flight still accidents are happen due to some technical issues developed mid air but still these jet are schedule to be replaced with JF-17 not because they are no more considered safe but due to avionics.


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## monitor

RIP, Really a sad incident losing any pilot is bad and losing a wing comander level serving pilot is great loss indeed. Pakistan air force have lost two fighter and it's more valuable pilot in just two weeks should taken care by the top brass to find out the reason and solution for this kind of incident.


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## GiG

Mystery said:


> F-16 were also nearly 35 years old still serving very well and probably would serve well more 10 years (early blocks), Any jet PAF is using very well maintained and inspected each and ever time before flight still accidents are happen due to some technical issues developed mid air but still these jet are schedule to be replaced with JF-17 not because they are no more considered safe but due to avionics.


Tell this to the families of young Pilots who commit ed their sons and daughters for national security but they ended dying in avoidable accidents

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## monitor

Eminent Mainstream Media said:


> Why the Orange dress ?
> 
> Fear of crash and possible ejection ?




No showings warning to Pakistan's enemy their death is coming.

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## Eminent Mainstream Media

monitor said:


> No showings warning to Pakistan's enemy their death is coming.



I avoid nonsensical discussions- you can continue your cheer leading without quoting me-


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## Mystery

Eminent Mainstream Media said:


> Why the Orange dress ?
> 
> Fear of crash and possible ejection ?



orange flying suit because of flying over sea and in case of ejection rescue teams could easily spot the pilot.

and go get a life Indian troll.

Reported for mocking the crash and trolling.

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## Mystery

GiG said:


> Tell this to the families of young Pilots who commit ed their sons and daughters for national security but they ended dying in avoidable accidents


You have serious comprehension problem even F-22 crashed and many times grounded. Any jet any time could crash it is a complex machine and flying object any technical issue could cause a crash which is not even noticeable while driving a car many times engine stops but since they don't fly don't crash hence no monkey dance by a kid like you.

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## Khafee

Eminent Mainstream Media said:


> Why the Orange dress ?
> 
> Fear of crash and possible ejection ?


Please edit your post.

Thank You

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Are the ejection seats on non upgraded Mirages Zero-Zero?


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## Zee-shaun

Mystery said:


> Pakistani pilots don't eject despite orders over heavily populated areas to save the civilians, they always prefer to give their lives for Pakistan and Pakistanis.



It didn't crash in a populated area.

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## TaimiKhan

We seriously need to look into these Martin baker ejection seats. Have lost too many pilots in these crashes. The survival rate seems very low.

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## Eminent Mainstream Media

Khafee said:


> Please edit your post.
> 
> Thank You



It is a question- no offense intended-


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## VCheng

Eminent Mainstream Media said:


> Why the Orange dress ?



SOP for marine flights.



TaimiKhan said:


> We seriously need to look into these Martin baker ejection seats. Have lost too many pilots in these crashes. The survival rate seems very low.



Who is responsible for maintaining these seats? MB or PAF?


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## Khafee

May Allah Almighty forgive his sins and give him the highest place in Jannah. May Allah give patience to his family and loved ones. Very sad news.

From what I have heard, he died steering his a/c away from populated areas, and saving innocent civilians on the ground, without any thought for his life. Despite the fact that an early ejection could have saved him. Nothing less than a hero. 

Salute to you Sir, and your parents, who brought you into this world. 

You gave the ultimate sacrifice. Your courage and dedication is commendable, you join a line of those few selfless heroes who gladly make the ultimate sacrifice for their motherland, without a thought to their own safety. It is because of selfless people like you, that Pakistan exists today. You will be remembered in the best of words, and thoughts, by millions. Our prayers are with you and your loved ones.

May Allah Almighty reward you the best of the best, from his endless bounties. May you eternally Rest in Peace.

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## TaimiKhan

Edited

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## TaimiKhan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> SOP for marine flights.
> 
> 
> 
> Who is responsible for maintaining these seats? MB or PAF?



I think after sale services are provided but most of the maintenance meaning day to day would b done by paf guys with usual inspections by MB guys. A more insightful view by person with inner workings of paf might give a better idea.

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## Khafee

Eminent Mainstream Media said:


> Why the Orange dress ?
> 
> Fear of crash and possible ejection ?



@TaimiKhan @waz @Jungibaaz @Aether @Irfan Baloch Kindly edit the above offensive post. 

Thank You

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## VCheng

TaimiKhan said:


> I think after sale services are provided but most of the maintenance meaning day to day would b done by paf guys with usual inspections by MB guys. A more insightful view by person with inner workings of paf might give a better idea.



A marine operating environment is not exactly easy on electronics and propellants.


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## Irfan Baloch

monitor said:


> RIP, Really a sad incident losing any pilot is bad and losing a wing comander level serving pilot is great loss indeed. Pakistan air force have lost two fighter and it's more valuable pilot in just two weeks should taken care by the top brass to find out the reason and solution for this kind of incident.


PAF has almost 100% pilot death record in these crashes.
one of the usual line is that pilot tried to avoid the civilian population from the harm and in the end was unable to bail out and died with the plane.

but the problem with this narrative that it seems to suggest a lazy attitude towards finding the causes of the crash.
this problem of a pilot death has to be addressed. and training should be conducted over the areas where there is no civilian population so that if the pilot still fails to bail out then we know that delaying in bail out due to saving civilians was not the cause of his death

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## Khafee

TaimiKhan said:


> We seriously need to look into these Martin baker ejection seats. Have lost too many pilots in these crashes. The survival rate seems very low.


You need a few seconds to eject, but when an a/c becomes technical, those few seconds are precious. 

The first thought a fighter pilot has is not to save his life, but the lives on the ground, and this time and again, has cost a precious aviators life.

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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> PAF has almost 100% pilot death record in these crashes.
> one of the usual line is that pilot tried to avoid the civilian population from the harm and in the end was unable to bail out and died with the plane.
> 
> but the problem with this narrative that it seems to suggest a lazy attitude towards finding the causes of the crash.
> this problem of a pilot death has to be addressed. and training should be conducted over the areas where there is no civilian population so that if the pilot still fails to bail out then we know that delaying in bail out due to saving civilians was not the cause of his death


You are using 40 year old Jets no matter How much you update them. They would still remain 40 year old and you are using them beyond limits or routine. What else you are expecting ? We need to increase JF-17 production also ask China to produce them for us. Secondly get 40 EuroFighter or SU-35 and if necessary than also get J-10 C to replace older Jets


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## Mystery

Irfan Baloch said:


> PAF has almost 100% pilot death record in these crashes.
> one of the usual line is that pilot tried to avoid the civilian population from the harm and in the end was unable to bail out and died with the plane.
> 
> but the problem with this narrative that it seems to suggest a lazy attitude towards finding the causes of the crash.
> this problem of a pilot death has to be addressed. and training should be conducted over the areas where there is no civilian population so that if the pilot still fails to bail out then we know that delaying in bail out due to saving civilians was not the cause of his death


I saw a video when PAF pilot bailed out during takeoff inside the airbase since there is no risk of civilian casualty, jet was extremely slow and low in altitude but pilot successfully bailed out with minor injuries.Which proves our pilots are well trained in every aspect of flying and other things but the real reason behind to save the civilian population is became a legacy since many older generation pilots do that to try till last minutes to save the air craft.

It is a matter of legacy not to eject rather than training or fault in a ejection system.

F-7 crash video





Another proof where PAF male pilot eject safely while female student not survive the impact of force during ejection.





@Khafee @Irfan Baloch

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## Irfan Baloch

Mystery said:


> I saw a video when PAF pilot bailed out during takeoff inside the airbase since there is no risk of civilian casualty, jet was extremely slow and low in altitude but pilot successfully bailed out with minor injuries.Which proves our pilots are well trained in every aspect of flying and other things but the real reason behind to save the civilian population is became a legacy since many older generation pilots do that to try till last minutes to save the air craft.
> 
> It is a matter of legacy not to eject rather than training or fault in a ejection system.
> 
> F-7 crash video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another proof where PAF male pilot eject safely while female student not survive the impact of force during ejection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Khafee @Irfan Baloch


yea I have seen first video.. seems like the jet lost energy and stalled .. true that pilot ejected.. hence I used the term almost 100% death record

I mean it is quiet a dismal record when we can count in few fingers where pilot survived compared to hundreds of deaths

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## Mystery

Irfan Baloch said:


> yea I have seen first video.. seems like the jet lost energy and stalled .. true that pilot ejected.. hence I used the term almost 100% death record
> 
> I mean it is quiet a dismal record when we can count in few fingers where pilot survived compared to hundreds of deaths


Pakistan is a densely populated country hence many flights took place over heavily populated area and above all due to early pilots acts to save the air craft or the population till the last seconds becomes the legacy so the newer generation is not willing to break it. Since they are regarded as martyrs and heroes rather then being subject of rigid interrogation how and when it happened.

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## Khafee

Mystery said:


> Pakistan is a densely populated country hence many flights took place over heavily populated area and above all due to early pilots acts to save the air craft or the population till the last seconds becomes the legacy so the newer generation is not willing to break it. Since they are regarded as martyrs and heroes rather then being subject of rigid interrogation how and when it happened.



Fighter pilots by nature are a very tough breed. PAF pilots are no doubt best of the best. From my personal experience I can tell you that facing a board of inquiry is like water on a ducks back. They have it drilled in their head from day one that "lives matter", and it is this doctrine that makes sure they fight till the last second. Legacy is something you think about in leisure, in the cramped cockpit of an out of control aircraft, you do not have that luxury.

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## hacker J

dsr478 said:


> They can't fly forever, they are old. Even the ones that have been upgraded are still prone to crashing due to age.



ryt but my point was that i am use to hearng that pak airforce has excelent maintainance and keeping srandards and their aircrafts dun crash like they have been crashing specially in last quater and now again, may be paf is straining them too much recently


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## Mystery

hacker J said:


> may be paf is straining them too much recently


Yes.


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## aliyusuf

hacker J said:


> ryt but my point was that i am use to hearng that pak airforce has excelent maintainance and keeping srandards and their aircrafts dun crash like they have been crashing specially in last quater and now again, may be paf is straining them too much recently



That certainly may be the case.

But, there comes a time when even the most efficient maintenance regime and procedures cannot prevent an otherwise old air craft from inflight parts and system failure ... due to the cumulative fatigue on the frame and constituent subsystems.

Although not all of these air frames are 40 years old some are less old, but they were still quite old. Furthermore, in PAF an aircraft is shared by multiple pilots from the squadron ... always has been the case ... so they are subjected to more flying hours and due to which the probability of accumulated fatigue effect setting in is increased.

Even in the west ... relatively newer fighters have suffered accidents ... but fatalities are less because they made sure that urban population did not come near the older air bases.

In Pakistan ... most air bases are now surrounded by populated areas (extremely poor sightedness of the civilian development authorities) due to which pilots tend to delay their ejection till they can be sure (as much as possible) that the aircraft will not fall over populated areas.


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## GDP Adil Khan Niazi

Video : http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/357239-PAF-Mirage-aircraft-crashes-in-Karachi







A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage jet crashed near Karachi's Musharraf Colony area on Tuesday, police said, adding the pilot Fayyaz has been killed.

"A Mirage plane crashed near Musharraf colony," Senior Superintendent Police city confirmed.






The site of the crash. ─ DawnNews








The aircraft of the PAF took off from Masroor Base and crashed during flight at Musharraf Colony, it was reported.

The jet was on a routine operational training mission when it crashed, a spokesperson from PAF said.

Rescue teams have reached the site of the crash.

"No loss of civilian life and property has been reported on ground," a press release by PAF stated.

"A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident," it added.

_This is a developing story that is being updated as the situation evolves. Initial reports in the media can sometimes be inaccurate. We will strive to ensure timeliness and accuracy by relying on credible sources such as qualified authorities and our staff reporters.

_

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## Khafee

@waz @Aether @Irfan Baloch Can this thread be moved to the appropriate thread please. 

Thank You
https://defence.pk/threads/notify-paf-aircraft-crashes.3718/page-213#post-8825124

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## MastanKhan

Mystery said:


> It is a matter of legacy not to eject rather than training or fault in a ejection system.
> 
> F-7 crash video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another proof where PAF male pilot eject safely while female student not survive the impact of force during ejection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Khafee @Irfan Baloch



Hi,

It is not a matter of Legacy---if it is---then it is tantamount to treason---destruction of national property---not the machine---but the pilot in itself---.



Irfan Baloch said:


> yea I have seen first video.. seems like the jet lost energy and stalled .. true that pilot ejected.. hence I used the term almost 100% death record
> 
> I mean it is quiet a dismal record when we can count in few fingers where pilot survived compared to hundreds of deaths



Hi,

I think that there is a serious problem with Paf with deaths happening in these crashes where a pilot can walk away from the crash after ejecting from the aircraft---.

As for the death of the female pilot---we would need to know the type of injuries she had---was it an impact to the ground injury or a broken neck due to ejection speeds.

When the seat is Zero Zero ejection seat---that would mean that the female pilot should have landed safely----but if her neck broke---then she may not have been physically strong---did not have strong muscles built up during training.

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## PAFMAN

RIP !!!!

Our Senior air force authority should take some serious action in this regards,
i think this is 3rd incident in 2016. Pilot life is much more expensive than anything and simply government and our Air force is playing with life just because of these RUSTY machines - we have completely useless machines/Jets and i use to hear that we are the Best Air force bla bla. 
if we are going to use these machine's against SU30MKI, mirage 2000 or whatever is in line.

for God sake stop making fool your nation and safe our Expensive treasure (Pilots) life.
Beggar government and useless ACM.

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## mrrehan

This is happening because of us all we are keep quite watching corruption after corruption money is draining on unproductive still we are quite. On its own, defense forces of Pakistan particularly PAF have continue to do wonders from the beginnings. Light to heavy modification on existing OLD platforms. The technical team is remarkable and international excepted efforts towards modernization specially its fleet. After all they are flying what they can have in the current inventory. Good economic condition, institutional efforts to keep upgrading, and right decisions on time keep these accidents to minimum. As faults happen from motorbike to aircraft. Pray for Shaeed.

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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> then she may not have been physically strong---did not have strong muscles built up during training.


really shows your knowledge base

its my feeling but is it the fact that our pilots eject late trying to safe aircraft ..or is sit simply bad luck, but we have relativly more deaths per crash


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## messiach

Cause should be determined. Blame game is child mentality. Chinese are especially meticulous at maintenance of jet fleet. They use to say 'We know better what We have designed'. Chinese wisdom.


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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> really shows your knowledge base
> 
> its my feeling but is it the fact that our pilots eject late trying to safe aircraft ..or is sit simply bad luck, but we have relativly more deaths per crash



Son,

Don't write stupid----. I have already met the first pakistani pilot who broke / fractured his neck after ejection due to ejection forces and survived---and that was in 1984-85 in Ogden Utah when he was based at Hill AFB.

The seat is zero zero---means that at even zero elevation zero sped it has safe ejection---. Being a female pilot---she may have a much higher tendency to break the neck if she has not done heavy workout to build up neck muscles.

Until and unless the autopsy report is not released and proves otherwise---I highly suspect that the pilot officer Marium died of a broken neck---.

A malfunction of the ejection seat is also possible---but when too many deaths start to happen---there are some very very serious issues inthe mechanical / technical dept of Paf.

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## Abingdonboy

Windjammer said:


> Try to understand that presently due to ongoing exercises, these aircrafts are being pushed beyond limits.


I don't understand this explanation, why would the PAF be intentionally pushing their a/c beyond their limits? Limits exist for a reason, if one is pushing them "beyond" accepted safe parameters they are only inviting disaster.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Son,
> 
> Don't write stupid----. I have already met the first pakistani pilot who broke / fractured his neck after ejection due to ejection forces and survived---and that was in 1984-85 in Ogden Utah when he was based at Hill AFB.
> 
> The seat is zero zero---means that at even zero elevation zero sped it has safe ejection---. Being a female pilot---she may have a much higher tendency to break the neck if she has not done heavy workout to build up neck muscles.
> 
> Until and unless the autopsy report is not released and proves otherwise---I highly suspect that the pilot officer Marium died of a broken neck---.
> 
> A malfunction of the ejection seat is also possible---but when too many deaths start to happen---there are some very very serious issues inthe mechanical / technical dept of Paf.



Just out of curiosity was he flying F-16s at Hill AFB ??


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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Just out of curiosity was he flying F-16s at Hill AFB ??



Hi,

He could not fly after the accident that happened flying out of Shorkot air base---the aircraft was an F6 if I remember it correctly.

He was there for either procurement or was incharge of the paf pilots coming in.

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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> yea I have seen first video.. seems like the jet lost energy and stalled .. true that pilot ejected.. hence I used the term almost 100% death record
> 
> I mean it is quiet a dismal record when we can count in few fingers where pilot survived compared to hundreds of deaths


Has to do with needless bravado displayed by PAF pilots on trying to "bring the aircraft in". They try to save the equipment and end up getting fixated and not consider ejection. There are limits to where the pilot takes a decision.

It is also important that needless speculation be avoided, there is already enough of it said with such authority that it passes off as truth.

18 confirmed losses of mirages since 2006. Two seats employed - MB PRM4-1 and MB-6. Former on older Mirages,newer on ROSE systems.
Mk.4 limited to
MINIMUM HEIGHT/SPEED ZERO/90 KIAS but depends on aircraft attitude and G as well.
Mk6. Zero/Zero but still dependant on aircraft attitude and pilot orientation.

10 deaths - 1 where the chute did not deploy, 1 due to incorrect safety pin in seat, 2 together in two seat variant
1 confirmed CFIT, 2 failed attempts to bring aircraft back safe.

out of this 4 confirmed ejections with Mk.6 seat. Pilot survived. This is the first known case that the Mk.6 seat was apparently not used.


18 confirmed losses of F-7P/PG variants since 2006. Seat is Martin Bkr
ZERO/ZERO IN *NEAR LEVEL ATTITUDE*

3 death due to impact.

15 Ejections - out of which three fatalities have occurred. That means that the seat still saved 13 lives.


F-16
10 Losses - 4 CFIT
6 Ejections - All pilots safe.


Point being, lets look at metrics before we decide on judging an aircraft or seat.

AIRCRAFT(number operated) DECADE CRASHES FLEET AGE AVG(YRS)

Mirage(94 III&V) 71-81 10 5-10
Mirage(84 III & V) 82-92 18 10-13
Mirage (~180)  93-2003 20 20-36
Mirage (~175) 2003-2016 21 30-46

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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force MirageOctober 18th, 2016 This Mirage crashed due to a technical malfunction after take-off from PAF Base Masroor for a routine mission. wing commander fayyaz was killed.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

This flyer was a Wing Commander---you can replace 10 aircraft and still cannot compensate for the loss of a single wing commander ranked officer---.

If it has to do with needless bravado---then there is a problem with the upper management enforcing its orders---and the pilots following the directive.

Which would also mean---that there is a serious problem of discipline amongst the fighter pilots.

A change of game plan is needed---a death in this manner would be designated as " suicide thru aircraft " and not designated as a " Martyr ".

You people will be surprised at the survival rate of the operators.

One too many higher ranking officers are dying in these crashes.

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This flyer was a Wing Commander---you can replace 10 aircraft and still cannot compensate for the loss of a single wing commander ranked officer---.
> 
> If it has to do with needless bravado---then there is a problem with the upper management enforcing its orders---and the pilots following the directive.
> 
> Which would also mean---that there is a serious problem of discipline amongst the fighter pilots.
> 
> A change of game plan is needed---a death in this manner would be designated as " suicide thru aircraft " and not designated as a " Martyr ".
> 
> You people will be surprised at the survival rate of the operators.
> 
> One too many higher ranking officers are dying in these crashes.



The rank is irrelevant. What must be done are cost based metrics into the monetary and intangible costs that go into creating a officer. Yes, it is important to save the people in the congested apartment bloc... but the chances of the effectiveness of those lower middle class people in a conflict versus a CCS graduate are paramount.
The issue is not just martyrdom, but the after effects of a crash and the paperwork. The general hounding that the PAF does to a pilot who loses an aircraft and the internal witch hunts that follow.

Many a pilot has lot a plane to still rise to the top thanks to a honest investigating team and lead, and many a pilot has ended up with a mediocre career due to a team on a witch hunt.
Similarly, mediocre pilots exhibiting grave errors have been "saved" by higher ups...

Our airframe loss record isnt actually bad once we look at the age of aircraft and accumulated flight hours.

take a look at this

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/PAKISTAN/Mirage_III_V.htm

Then lets compare to this

And look at the causes given. It gives you a picture of flight safety for type and
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/PAKISTAN/Shenyang_F-6.htm

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/INDIA/mig_21_india.htm ( to be fair, the last few years were plagued by spares issues)
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/INDIA/Jaguar_India.htm

Both make, type, location and quantity along with quality of pilots assigned has a big impact on flight safety
@MastanKhan Which is why our F-16 pilots prefer to get out rather then save a lost cause when the probability gets too low( again, US equipment has safety systems FOR safety systems).
They know their value and the idea of living to fight another day.


As for this incident, it is too soon to comment as such on the pilots true motivation. The area does seem populated and perhaps a sense of responsibility to avoid letting the aircraft go into a populated area took over.

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## WhyCry

RIP for the pilot. He saved lives, my salute and condolences are with family.

This is the second in a month i think; earlier one happened in janjur or some like that.

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## syed zia Hassan

Wing commander fayyaz done his job he tried to saved civilian life and loss his life.. This is pride of Pakistan Air force ..always problem with air crafts..1968 to 2016 Mirage will be ground/ retired soon. But Pakistan air force Fighter Pilots are face this conditions from the start of their fighter Squadron unit. I pray to Wing Commander Fayyaz and his family they will face a new kind of challenge. God Help them.

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## araz

MastanKhan said:


> Son,
> 
> Don't write stupid----. I have already met the first pakistani pilot who broke / fractured his neck after ejection due to ejection forces and survived---and that was in 1984-85 in Ogden Utah when he was based at Hill AFB.
> 
> *The seat is zero zero---means that at even zero elevation zero sped it has safe ejection---. Being a female pilot---she may have a much higher tendency to break the neck if she has not done heavy workout to build up neck muscles.*
> 
> Until and unless the autopsy report is not released and proves otherwise---I highly suspect that the pilot officer Marium died of a broken neck---.
> 
> A malfunction of the ejection seat is also possible---but when too many deaths start to happen---there are some very very serious issues inthe mechanical / technical dept of Paf.


The question has been answered by Bilal khan777. According to him, there is a minimum weight for the seat to be effective and safe. The unfortunate female pilot was probably below the weight making it possible for her to have sustained damage during the ejection process. You can search the relevant post in this section regarding the death of the female pilot and read his response.
As to the recent deaths it is probably more to do with multiple factors including aging fleet, pilots wish to minimise ground level destruction, and sometimes sheer speed of occurance of events. I would certainly say that in the Civilian asector certainly evacuation of hte injured especially with regards to protection of the neck leaves a lot to be desired. We could with the right training of our paramedics save a few paralytics a year if not more.
A

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## VCheng

araz said:


> The unfortunate female pilot was probably below the weight making it possible for her to have sustained damage during the ejection process.



So who cleared an underweight pilot for flight in violation of such a basic requirement?

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## Taygibay

About the seats, MK.10 appeared in the seventies and
the first advertized as zero-zero even though the Mk.9
was deemed capable of it in the sixties. To give a time
frame : the first live test was on a Martin-Baker sending
employee Doddy Hay up & down on April Fools in 1961.
Anything prior was not demonstrably a real zero-zero.

Back then, ejection seats were mostly manually activated.
With the years, the electronics getting smaller and more
powerful, ejection sequence went more and more automatic
until on modern jets a pilot can literally wake up away from
his plane with a slap of fresh air.
As all can see from Oscar's post, most PAF ejection seats
save on the F-16s are prior to that Mk.10 I used as yardstick..

The Mk.10 is a nice piece of kit found on many & most jets
from Chendus to Kfirs, and even the Rafale demonstrator!
It just got left behind as even Wiki summarized easily :
The first successful emergency use of a Mk.10 seat involved a Red Arrows BAE Hawk on *17 May 1980*
after the aircraft struck the mast of a yacht moored offshore at Brighton.[2]A fatal accident involving the Red Arrows
in *November 2011* resulted in the temporary grounding of Royal Air Force aircraft fitted with Mk.10 seats.[3]​Checking those highlighted dates, a layman could guess just
about correctly that 30 years is the upper life limit of this product
past which technological advances make it obsolete even if
the seat itself still works fine.

The present series has differences that make it ... well, a different beast
having been developed along the Euro-Fighter program and entering
service in 1995. Here is a summary :
*Mk.16*
The Mk.16 ejection seat design optimises pilot field of view, improves comfort and pilot efficiency, provides integration with OBOGS, chemical defence and helmet mounted systems* and incorporates a second generation electronic sequencer *with increased reliability and maintainability. With the Mk.16, Martin-Baker is *extending the limits of escape system technology* while simultaneously improving aircrew efficiency, reliability and ease of maintenance coupled with lower life cycle costs.

*Mk.16A*
The Mk16A grew out of the early work undertaken by Martin-Baker on the EF Demonstrator in 1984. This aircraft was fitted with the Mk.10LX seat and through various iterations, the Mk16A was developed between 1990-95 culminating in the delivery of seven seats for the Development Aircraft (DA) programme. The development of the Mk16A ejection seat was carried out at Martin-Baker’s facilities at Denham and Chalgrove and Langford Lodge in Northern Ireland. Because of the capabilities and wide operating envelope of the aircraft, Martin-Baker was presented with a series of challenges which have had to be overcome during the development of the seat such as the accommodation of a wider range of pilot models covering height, weight and sex requirements as well as achieving compatibility with equipment such as the Head Mounted Display (HMD), Chemical and Biological protection units (CB) and general aircrew equipment. Furthermore, the Mk16A seat utilizes a second generation digital seat sequencer which incorporates a strategy of *continuous sensing of external environmental parameters*. Under certain speed and altitude conditions the recovery timings at which the parachute is deployed are varied in order to optimise the terrain clearance.

*Mk.16E*
The System Development & Demonstration (SDD) ejection seat that was selected by Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company is a further development of the Mk.16 range that has already been successful with the Raytheon T-6 Texan II (JPATS), the Eurofighter Typhoon, the NASA T-38N and US Air Force T-38 upgrade programs. More importantly, the *US16E* will be common to *all F-35 Lightning II aircraft variants*.

*Mk.16F*
New generation lightweight fighter aircraft, such as *Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale*, demand significant weight reduction for all their subsystems in order to achieve a lower aircraft total mass. The Mk.16 ejection seat achieves its remarkably light weight by combining the twin catapult outer cylinder tubes as both propulsion system and as the seat's primary structure. The Mk.16 ejection seat design optimizes pilot field of view, improves comfort and pilot efficiency, provides integration with OBOGS, chemical defence and helmet mounted systems. Reliability and maintainability have been key elements in the design, resulting in an escape system that has full component accessibility in the cockpit. Modular construction enables the seat to be safely removed or installed in minutes without removing the aircraft cockpit canopy. These and other design features will ensure that *this new generation of ejection seat succeeds the Martin-Baker Mk.10* as the world's most popular escape system.​http://wiki.scramble.nl/index.php/Martin-Baker#History

​So to be clear, replacing the seats is not easy and more of a MLU thing.
The idea is that after 30 years, both the seat and the aircraft it pops out
of should be replaced much sooner than any later.

Have a great day all, Tay.

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## aliyusuf

Oscar said:


> F-16
> 10 Losses - 4 CFIT
> 6 Ejections - All pilots safe.



Thank you sir for sharing such comprehensive information. We get to learn something from such posts. Also, if you don't mind my indulgence on the number of F-16 losses, I was aware of only 9 such losses i.e. ...

*No.....Date.......S/N.......Unit.......Variant/Block*
01--18-Dec-1986--85609--PAF__38___TW--F-16B Block 15U 
02--29-Apr-1987--85720--PAF__14__sqn--F-16A Block 15S 
03--04-Sep-1989--84712--PAF__38___TW--F-16A Block 15Q 
04--16-Jun-1991--85723--PAF___9__sqn--F-16A Block 15T 
05--28-Oct-1991--85725--PAF__14__sqn--F-16A Block 15U 
06--10-Nov-1993--84607--PAF__38___TW--F-16B Block 15N 
07--17-Mar-1994--85721--PAF__14__sqn--F-16A Block 15S 
08--22-Oct-1994--82701--PAF__11__sqn--F-16A Block 15E 
09--17-Jul-2009--92729--____________--F-16A Block 15AQ OCU

Can you kindly share the particulars of the 10th F-16 loss.
I would really appreciate it.

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## Raider 21

aliyusuf said:


> Thank you sir for sharing such comprehensive information. We get to learn something from such posts. Also, if you don't mind my indulgence on the number of F-16 losses, I was aware of only 9 such losses i.e. ...
> 
> *No.....Date.......S/N.......Unit.......Variant/Block*
> 01--18-Dec-1986--85609--PAF__38___TW--F-16B Block 15U
> 02--29-Apr-1987--85720--PAF__14__sqn--F-16A Block 15S
> 03--04-Sep-1989--84712--PAF__38___TW--F-16A Block 15Q
> 04--16-Jun-1991--85723--PAF___9__sqn--F-16A Block 15T
> 05--28-Oct-1991--85725--PAF__14__sqn--F-16A Block 15U
> 06--10-Nov-1993--84607--PAF__38___TW--F-16B Block 15N
> 07--17-Mar-1994--85721--PAF__14__sqn--F-16A Block 15S
> 08--22-Oct-1994--82701--PAF__11__sqn--F-16A Block 15E
> 09--17-Jul-2009--92729--____________--F-16A Block 15AQ OCU
> 
> Can you kindly share the particulars of the 10th F-16 loss.
> I would really appreciate it.



Wreckage remains of 85720.

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## MastanKhan

araz said:


> The question has been answered by Bilal khan777. According to him, there is a minimum weight for the seat to be effective and safe. The unfortunate female pilot was probably below the weight making it possible for her to have sustained damage during the ejection process. You can search the relevant post in this section regarding the death of the female pilot and read his response.
> As to the recent deaths it is probably more to do with multiple factors including aging fleet, pilots wish to minimise ground level destruction, and sometimes sheer speed of occurance of events. I would certainly say that in the Civilian asector certainly evacuation of hte injured especially with regards to protection of the neck leaves a lot to be desired. We could with the right training of our paramedics save a few paralytics a year if not more.
> A



Hi,

Just looking at the picture of the girl---she seems to be in the 140 lbs weight range---.

Supposedly---if she was below the weight range---then it is a HOMICIDE---. Someone needs to be charged with negligence---even though I don't think weight was an issue.

As for the deaths in crashes---one too many senior pilots are dying.

The picture of the current crash shows empty fields far out---.

So---at this stage---excuses are not good enough---there has to be technical reasons for that.



syed zia Hassan said:


> Wing commander fayyaz done his job he tried to saved civilian life and loss his life.. This is pride of Pakistan Air force ..always problem with air crafts..1968 to 2016 Mirage will be ground/ retired soon. But Pakistan air force Fighter Pilots are face this conditions from the start of their fighter Squadron unit. I pray to Wing Commander Fayyaz and his family they will face a new kind of challenge. God Help them.



Hi,

The picture of the crash shows open fields far out---!

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## Jammer

Oscar said:


> Has to do with needless bravado displayed by PAF pilots on trying to "bring the aircraft in". They try to save the equipment and end up getting fixated and not consider ejection. There are limits to where the pilot takes a decision.



Oscar, can't I agree with your needless bravado statement, I still believe that the PAF is a highly disciplined and well trained force and this discipline and training only gets honed further as one progresses up the ranks and gains more experience (including flying experience). Quality and well trained fighter pilots all over the world are trained along with those in communication with him/her on the ground as to when an ejection is inevitable. It obviously depends on the condition of the aircraft. If the pilot is in control of the plane but determines that a crash is inevitable, he should head to the closest unpopulated area, reduce speed (etc. etc., there's more to that obviously, just simplifying  ), and then eject. If, however, the pilot has lost control of the plane's basic functioning and can no longer alter its path in other words not flying but falling, then he should prioritize escaping before impact.
Without knowing the details it is impossible to make a statement whether the pilot was exhibiting unnecessary bravado or just following ejection protocol. Essentially, civilian casualties on the ground is a grave concern, so a safe ditch point is very important to try to achieve. I will tell you with great confidence, take any fighter pilot in the world, from any air force, in a dire situation he is worried about ditching over population period and he will do everything in his power including putting his life on the line to not bail out over populated areas.

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## araz

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just looking at the picture of the girl---she seems to be in the 140 lbs weight range---.
> 
> Supposedly---if she was below the weight range---then it is a HOMICIDE---. Someone needs to be charged with negligence---even though I don't think weight was an issue.
> 
> As for the deaths in crashes---one too many senior pilots are dying.
> 
> The picture of the current crash shows empty fields far out---.
> 
> So---at this stage---excuses are not good enough---there has to be technical reasons for that.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The picture of the crash shows open fields far out---!


Agreed but do consider the speed of travel as well. Many a hundred miles per hour you could be 10 to 15 miles down the line in a couple of seconds.
A


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## MuhammadAliPaki

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This flyer was a Wing Commander---you can replace 10 aircraft and still cannot compensate for the loss of a single wing commander ranked officer---.
> 
> If it has to do with needless bravado---then there is a problem with the upper management enforcing its orders---and the pilots following the directive.
> 
> Which would also mean---that there is a serious problem of discipline amongst the fighter pilots.
> 
> A change of game plan is needed---a death in this manner would be designated as " suicide thru aircraft " and not designated as a " Martyr ".
> 
> You people will be surprised at the survival rate of the operators.
> 
> One too many higher ranking officers are dying in these crashes.


----------



## Taimur Khurram

hacker J said:


> ryt but my point was that i am use to hearng that pak airforce has excelent maintainance and keeping srandards and their aircrafts dun crash like they have been crashing specially in last quater and now again, may be paf is straining them too much recently



The maintanence is excellent in comparison to India, that's what people mean when they say the Air Force has good maintanence.


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## hacker J

dsr478 said:


> The maintanence is excellent in comparison to India, that's what people mean when they say the Air Force has good maintanence.



from where india came into picture hahaha just because an indian tried to praise paf ? I was talking in general terms
or is it so that you just compair just to india and in compairision to rest of world its very poor 
don't quote me into useless comments


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## Taimur Khurram

hacker J said:


> from where india came into picture hahaha just because an indian tried to praise paf ? I was talking in general terms
> or is it so that you just compair just to india and in compairision to rest of world its very poor
> don't quote me into useless comments



I'm saying that when people say great, they mean in comparison to India and other 3rd world countries with the same problems. Compared to Western nations, I'm not sure, but I'm willing to bet we aren't as good.


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## syed zia Hassan

Last 2012.... The National Report.
ISLAMABAD - Fourteen aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) have been destroyed or damaged in thirteen cases of aircraft crashes, fire eruption or emergency landings in over a year but the inquiry report of none of these incidents has come to light till date.According to the data available, more than 10 PAF officers including an air commodore, six squadron leaders, and two flight lieutenants have been killed in the aircraft crashes since October last year.The destroyed or damaged aircraft included Mushak, Mirage, F-7, F-7 PG, JF-17 Thunder and an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV), Falco-I Selex, the PAF surveillance drone that had crashed near Mianwali in May this year. The GS Falco-I Selex is the only type of surveillance drone the PAF present has. After every aircraft crash, the PAF would issue a one-liner, “A board of inquiry has been ordered to determine the cause of accident.” However, the details of these inquiries are neither shared publicly nor any relevant details are made available to media.PAF sources say, the results of these kind of probes are never made public or shared with media. “These are internal probes of highly sensitive nature. Only the PAF top brass remains privy to relevant details,” this correspondent was told.PAF Spokesman Group Captain Tariq Mehmood was called at his official and personal cell and official landline numbers to acquire the armed force’s version on the subject but he did not respond. A message was also dropped with the spokesman’s personal assistant Muhammad Akram but the PAF’s version was not received till the filing of this report. The details of the incidents involving PAF aircraft are as under:Last week (November 22), a PAF aircraft, reportedly a Mushak, crashed near Jhang. A squadron leader was killed. On August 15, 2012, a Mirage aircraft crashed near Thal, the pilot remained safe.On August 6, a PAF aircraft, once again a Mirage, crashed near Charsadda, two pilots had remained safe. June 12, another Mirage crashed near Thal. The pilot was safe.May 29, a PAF F-7 aircraft caught fire during repair at Samungli, Quetta. The aircraft was largely damaged. No loss of life was reported.This year’s May 17 proved to be deadliest day for the PAF in recent times. Two of its Mushak aircraft collided mid-air near Risalpur Academy killing four PAF officers, three squadron leaders and a flight lieutenant.February 8, F-7 PG aircraft crashed in Pisin, Balochistan, a flight lieutenant was killed. January 25, a PAF aircraft, reportedly, a Mushak, crashed near Mianwali. The two pilots were safe. January 17, an aircraft of PAF (type not known) crashed in Turkey near Azmeer base. One squadron leader was killed while unspecified number of trainees had gone missing. They were also reportedly dead.November 14 (last year), a JF-17 Thunder crashed in Attock. A squadron leader lost his life.October 19, 2011, a PAF Mirage crashed near Lasbela, Balochistan. An air commodore was killed. Talking to TheNation, Air Commodore (r) Ali Raza, said that the main cause of the PAF aircraft crashes were technical lapses. “I think the repeated aircraft crash incidents are a result of the poor technical and engineering oversight. It’s the job of engineering branch to ensure that aircraft is well maintained and fully fit for flying operations. The pre-flight and post-flight inspections are carried out to examine if all the parts of an aircraft are functioning properly,” he said.The reason for the technical lapses, the retired air commodore believed, could be extensive occupation at the Western border causing excessive training exercises. “The PAF is extensively engaged in the war on terror on the Western border. This kind of operational engagement requires hectic operational preparedness that involves excessive professional training and other standby arrangements. This could be a constraint for effective aircraft maintenance and repair,” he said. Regarding results of the probes launched into PAF aircraft incidents, Air Commodore (r) Ali Raza said that the probes’ findings are generally shared with the top officials at engineering, operations and administration branches of PAF whereas “these details always remain a mystery for everyone else.”



*Published in The Nation newspaper on 01-Dec-2012*


27 September - A Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Block 2 on a routine flight from Masroor Airbase, crashed into Arabian Sea.[256] The pilot managed to eject before the aircraft crashed into water.
18 October - A Pakistan Air Force Mirage 3 no. 921 of 22 Squadron crashed near Karachi's Musharraf Colony area killing Wing Commander Fayyaz.[

A Pakistan Air Force MFI-17 Mushshak _96-5383_ training aircraft crashed in the Gujrat district of Punjab, two killed.[234]

 A Pakistan Air Force trainer Chengdu J-7 crashed due to technical failures over Mianwali District in Punjab Province.[230] The crew ejected after navigating the jet beyond civilian settlements before crashing. In the aftermath, Squadron Leader Saqib Abbasi suffered only minor injuries while Co-Pilot Flying Officer Marium Iftikhar did not survive her injuries, becoming the first Pakistani female fighter pilot to be killed in an operation.

Its worry

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## MuhammadAliPaki

hacker J said:


> from where india came into picture hahaha just because an indian tried to praise paf ? I was talking in general terms
> or is it so that you just compair just to india and in compairision to rest of world its very poor
> don't quote me into useless comments


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## syed zia Hassan

according to indian border to pakistan only 250 Km from karachi .Sir creek....Pak Navy Antiquate Shot Down By Indian Migs 21. ..very unclear border .I have seen on map ..very difficult to drawn on papers. who were mistake Pak Navy or Indians? on 1999 shot down ? No one can ans that .wreckage of air craft where were found ,,,,no one can ans ..everything is allowed in war.


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## cougar

Salute to u and ur family sir!!


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## volatile

Reports are coming in for Crash of PAF UAV/UCAV not mentioned crashed near Sargodha today


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## Incog_nito

What was the reason behind the recent PAF crashes since a Month?


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## nomi007

volatile said:


> Reports are coming in for Crash of PAF UAV/UCAV not mentioned crashed near Sargodha today


its sure falco uav


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## volatile

nomi007 said:


> its sure falco uav


Very interesting comments ,

You seem quite certain MAy i ask following 

Are Falco facing some problems ?
Are they stationed there ?


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## nomi007

volatile said:


> Very interesting comments ,
> 
> You seem quite certain MAy i ask following
> 
> Are Falco facing some problems ?
> Are they stationed there ?


they are flying coffin of PAF
due to western technology 
falco are use to help the f-16s


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## Arshad Niazi

sword9 said:


> PAF is going through the same phase like the IAF in the 80's due to the aging Mig-21s. The only solution is new aircraft.



*agree but still PAF is No1 air force*


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Armoured Division said:


> Bird hit over sea in the middle of the night???



Why, do not birds fly at night in India? Lol!


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## Clairvoyant

Two of the recent crashes including F.7PG and the JF.17 were CFIT while the Mirage-3 unfortunately sucked a bird into its intake so there is nothing wrong with the the planes,just bad luck and pilot error.


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## razgriz19

^ I smell bullshit


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## DESERT FIGHTER

razgriz19 said:


> ^ I smell bullshit



Yeah im sure........ JF with almost 80 airfract has a faulty design.


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## razgriz19

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yeah im sure........ JF with almost 80 airfract has a faulty design.


I never said anything about faulty design. But just saying that it was pilot error or pilot suicide is absurd. CFIT basically means exactly that. 
Just because it crashed, doesn't mean it has a design flaw, could be a maintenance flaw. Mechanic could've rigged something wrong, maybe didn't replace seals after checking chip detectors, ANYTHING could've happen, but NOT CFIT on both occasions. That's why i smell bullshit. 
P.S
If you look at my profile picture, you might see an airliner sitting in the background. *Hint*


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## Mughal-Prince

Imadafridi said:


> Two of the recent crashes including F.7PG and the JF.17 were CFIT while the Mirage-3 unfortunately sucked a bird into its intake so there is nothing wrong with the the planes,just bad luck and pilot error.



So how come when CFIT committed a pilot has been bailed out ??
Or CFIT committed then why does he bailed out ??
Some thing is fishy!
How this aircraft count is still the same ??


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## BilalSE

Is there any update to anyone about the JF-17 crash on 27September.
Still there is not any further news about the missing pilot and the jet.


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## Tempest II

Just some "official" record on the JF-17 that crashed at sea. The pilot ejected safely and was recovered:

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## khanasifm

Tempest II said:


> Just some "official" record on the JF-17 that crashed at sea. The pilot ejected safely and was recovered:
> 
> View attachment 365087



Airforce monthly magazine is not official record for paf, ispr or paf media is the official record


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## messiach

CFIT,... with builtin EGPWS in FC-1, controlled flight into terrain is nearly next to impossible, until a disastrous malfunction in EGPWS.

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## araz

messiach said:


> CFIT,... with builtin EGPWS in FC-1, controlled flight into terrain is nearly next to impossible, until a disastrous malfunction in EGPWS.


So any ideas about what happened? As always respond only if you feel safe to do so.
Regards
A


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## messiach

I am always safe. I do not know what happened. CFiT is suspicious.


araz said:


> So any ideas about what happened? As always respond only if you feel safe to do so.
> Regards
> A

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## Windjammer

araz said:


> So any ideas about what happened? As always respond only if you feel safe to do so.
> Regards
> A


The Professional word is that it was a case of disorientation.... two airliners flying above (British Airways & Emirates) picked up the SOS signal and reported it to authorities in Karachi and although a major rescue operation was launched within 30 minutes including a P-3 Orion but reportedly pilot was never recovered.

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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> The Professional word is that it was a case of disorientation.... two airliners flying above (British Airways & Emirates) picked up the SOS signal and reported it to authorities in Karachi and although a major rescue operation was launched within 30 minutes including a P-3 Orion but reportedly pilot was never recovered.



in the article above it says the pilot was recovered

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## Sloth 22

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage jet crashed near Jhang's Athara Hazari area on Tuesday, a PAF spokesperson said.

The aircraft crashed while on "routine operation training". No loss of life was reported, according to the PAF, as the pilot was safely ejected from the jet.

In April, an Army-owned Mushshak aircraft experiencing a 'technical failure' crashed into a tree in Kalowal near Jhelum.

The aircraft was on a routine flight when it crashed into a tree and was fully damaged in the crash. The pilot remained unhurt.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1330572/paf-mirage-jet-on-routine-ops-training-crashes-in-jhang


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## PakCan

Report of PAF mirage jet crash in Jhang. Plane was on a routine flight. Pilot ejected safely and no loss of life on ground either. 

https://www.dawn.com/news/1330572/paf
-mirage-jet-on-routine-ops-training-crashes-in-jhang

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## Sloth 22

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/859277145146761216


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## Cool_Soldier

These old mirages need to be replace soon.
Thank to Allah, Pilot is saved.

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## Windjammer

Both instructor and student pilots are safe, who cares about the 50 year old Mirages.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/859286809213149185


Kedardel said:


> Normally, we dont get to know all the crashes of PAF aircrafts. I read somewhere they restrict their flying to maintain spares.


Well you read wrong, it's your front line SU-30s, some 40% which are grounded due to operational issues.

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## skybolt




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## fatman17

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage jet crashed near Jhang's Athara Hazari area on Tuesday, a PAF spokesperson said.

The aircraft crashed while on "routine operation training". No loss of life was reported, according to the PAF, as the pilot was safely ejected from the jet.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Luckily the JF17-2B is almost ready so the plane will be easily replaced if needed

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## skybolt




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## Windjammer

Kedardel said:


> Normally, we dont get to know all the crashes of PAF aircrafts. I read somewhere they restrict their flying to maintain spares.





Kedardel said:


> Oh and do u mean to say that PAF does not repair its A/c despite A/c requiring repairs. What is PAF's rate of maintenance of its Aircrafts ??


Now read slowly and see if your two posts make any sense.

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## Windjammer

Kedardel said:


> What are the figures for PAF ?? Then only Indian figures can be looked at. Or you are just going to shoot and scoot ?
> Anyways 40% seems a good figure.
> 
> P.S. I know my question is a futility, you are never going to give any figure for PAF.


Listen buster, we are talking about your front line fighter aircraft which you Indians claim that it's produced in India just like Pakistan makes the JF-17.....currently our front line aircraft is the F-16 and this is the record it achieved and remember unlike most of your front line types, the F-16 is a single engine aircraft.
*
Pakistani F-16s reach 100,000 accident free flight hours.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article1468.html*

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## Kedardel

Windjammer said:


> Listen hot shot, we are talking about your front line fighter aircraft which you Indians claim that it's produced in India just like Pakistan makes the JF-17.....currently our front line aircraft is the F-16 and this is the record it achieved and remember unlike most of your front line types, the


Its Ok my friend, the topic is ONLY about a PAF aircraft crash not about Indian Aircraft crash.

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## Windjammer

NirmalKrish said:


> If you're not worried about a 50-year-old mirage, why are you still using them & putting your pilots in danger! Just retire them already and get a better top of the line Chinese products!


The older types are gradually being replaced with either JF-17s or with even F-16 acquired from say Jordan but from your MiG-21 experience, you should know it's a long drawn out process.


> They can't help but make every thread centric to India only, as they called it we are an aspiring supa dupa power! I had no intentions of commenting on this thread up and until he brought in India for no god damn reason! But obviously, they just cannot resist the urge to Bash India for their own incompetencies.


Yes, on a Pakistani forum, when Indians habitually take cheap shots on Pakistan, we should simply turn the other cheek....hell, we are not even allowed to join Indian forums for the fear of showing the mirror...

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## Dazzler

Why open a new thread when there is a dedicated thread for crashes?


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## Fledgingwings

Good to know both pilots Bailed out safely.


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## Windjammer

Alphacharlie said:


> Windjammer
> 
> I love your detailed and Thoroughly researched statements.
> Your Home work on Indian crashes is yet again Out Standing !!
> 
> Wow


I know you often have a brainstorm, care to elaborate what was the cause of such reaction here.
And what exactly relates to Indian crashes here.


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## atifM

Windjammer said:


> Listen buster, we are talking about your front line fighter aircraft which you Indians claim that it's produced in India just like Pakistan makes the JF-17.....currently our front line aircraft is the F-16 and this is the record it achieved and remember unlike most of your front line types, the F-16 is a single engine aircraft.
> *
> Pakistani F-16s reach 100,000 accident free flight hours.
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article1468.html*



It's a small number hence easy to maintain.


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## fatman17

WngC Rahat ejected safely.

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## Blacklight

fatman17 said:


> WngC Rahat ejected safely.


Thank God. Aircraft can be replaced, human life cannot be.

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## tarrar

Time to ground these aged dying Mirage fleet for good.


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## salarsikander

Windjammer said:


> I know you often have a brainstorm, care to elaborate what was the cause of such reaction here.
> And what exactly relates to Indian crashes here.


Report his post for going off topic


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## Readerdefence

fatman17 said:


> WngC Rahat ejected safely.


Any info what kind of mirage was it?


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## Readerdefence

MOD please merge this with the relevant thread
Thx


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## fatman17

Readerdefence said:


> Any info what kind of mirage was it?


The mirage flew out of Rafiqui,

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## Jammer

Crashes unfortunately happen in the best of air forces and to the best of pilots, pilot and GIBS safe and that's all that matters now.

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## ghazi52

Thanks to Allah, Pilots are saved.

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## skybolt

Jammer said:


> Crashes unfortunately happen in the best of air forces and to the best of pilots, pilot and GIBS safe and that's all that matters now.


indeed !!!


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## Zarvan

A trainer F-7 PG has crashed near Mianwali today. Pilot ejected safely


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## Rahil khan

Breaking News: PAF F-7P crashed near Mianwali. Pilot ejected safely


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## Windjammer

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) training jet crashed near Mianwali ON Thursday, _Express News_ reported.



According to reports, the jet which was on a routine training mission crashed during landing in Khailanwala near Mianwali, Punjab. Rescue teams have been dispatched to the crash site.

PAF spokesperson confirmed the incident, saying a F-7P jet crashed after developing technical fault during a training flight.

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## Areesh

Good thing that pilot is safe. These Mirages and F7P need to be replaced ASAP.


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## Rashid Mahmood



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## Areesh

Rashid Mahmood said:


> View attachment 399133
> View attachment 399134



Good thing that pilot is safe. Machines can be replaced. Not humans.

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## WarFariX

Why is it that whenever PAF gets active, our jets crashes? :-/ If this goes on then during war times our mirages and F-7s will betray us and we will lose numbers quickly :-/. Alhamdullilah Sqn.Leader is safe

ab sai wali besti honi hai india ke hathon...bolenge ke kal ACM ne sari forward bases operational kardin aur aj apna jahaz gira dia..last time jab ye hoa tha to humara thunder arabian sea mein crash hogaya tha


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## fatman17




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## lovepakaramy

Alhamdulillah our Pilot is safe, May Allah gives our Pilots long life and strength to fly these junks...

Hansi arahi hai mujhy ye news parh k... one statement just clicked on my mind. We are fully capable to face our enemy.. .
yes we are capable to put our precious pilots life's in danger. there is nothing like. Men behind the machine..
tell our ACM to not say this again. 
I just hope this time he and our shit government will think seriously to look new fighter jets.

Allah ka wasta Pakistan ka socho paisa banane ka mat socho. HARAM KHORO.


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## WarFariX

lovepakaramy said:


> Alhamdulillah our Pilot is safe, May Allah gives our Pilots long life and strength to fly these junks...
> 
> Hansi arahi hai mujhy ye news parh k... one statement just clicked on my mind. We are fully capable to face our enemy.. .
> yes we are capable to put our precious pilots life's in danger. there is nothing like. Men behind the machine..
> tell our ACM to not say this again.
> I just hope this time he and our shit government will think seriously to look new fighter jets.
> 
> Allah ka wasta Pakistan ka socho paisa banane ka mat socho. HARAM KHORO.


Jab banday mein aqal na ho to wo thori kam baat kia kare

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## razgriz19

PAF has gotten itself the worst crash rate in the region in the last two years.


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## Imran Khan



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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> View attachment 399175
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 399176


Bad taste mate

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## JamD

Areesh said:


> Good thing that pilot is safe. These Mirages and F7P need to be replaced ASAP.


Going by the PAF press release it was not an F-7P but an F-7PG that crashed. These airframes were delivered 2001/2002 so they are one of our newer aircraft. They are probably going to be replaced after all Mirages and F7Ps are phased out. Sh*t happens.


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## Readerdefence

lovepakaramy said:


> Alhamdulillah our Pilot is safe, May Allah gives our Pilots long life and strength to fly these junks...
> 
> Hansi arahi hai mujhy ye news parh k... one statement just clicked on my mind. We are fully capable to face our enemy.. .
> yes we are capable to put our precious pilots life's in danger. there is nothing like. Men behind the machine..
> tell our ACM to not say this again.
> I just hope this time he and our shit government will think seriously to look new fighter jets.
> 
> Allah ka wasta Pakistan ka socho paisa banane ka mat socho. HARAM KHORO.


Don't worry Indians also looking for one of their su30 disappears from the radar


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> Bad taste mate


nothing happen wrong sir 

f-7 was abut to retired and officer is safe in front of us just chilling


----------



## Jammer

Thank God the pilot is safe. The villagers look so worried for him, trying to do everything in there power to help him and make him comfortable.

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## lovepakaramy

WarFariX said:


> Jab banday mein aqal na ho to wo thori kam baat kia kare



Hi,
Sir ap ker lijiye aqal ki bat, i am sure you have enough to say about this accident.
or if you don't have so please don't tag me, not atleast to take a side of our shit government or our ACM's previous statements. like i just mentioned in my recent post.

Men behind the machine jab acha lagta hai jab machine operate hone k qabil ho, no killer machine who's eating our precious pilots's life.

Anyway. take care.



Readerdefence said:


> Don't worry Indians also looking for one of their su30 disappears from the radar



Sir, we have nothing to do with their Su30. even if they lose 2 or 3 more. that won't effect their jet's number much.
we should look into our force. we are running after time and Our ACM and other's are just talking.
some of our PDF fanboy's like. zarvan bhai will come and start giving useless hopes to us... 

Ramzan Sharif is coming insha Allah, just have wish Allah Rab ul Izzat gives Hidayat to our General's and Government to think about our Pakistan.


----------



## WarFariX

lovepakaramy said:


> Hi,
> Sir ap ker lijiye aqal ki bat, i am sure you have enough to say about this accident.
> or if you don't have so please don't tag me, not atleast to take a side of our shit government or our ACM's previous statements. like i just mentioned in my recent post.
> 
> Men behind the machine jab acha lagta hai jab machine operate hone k qabil ho, no killer machine who's eating our precious pilots's life.
> 
> Anyway. take care.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, we have nothing to do with their Su30. even if they lose 2 or 3 more. that won't effect their jet's number much.
> we should look into our force. we are running after time and Our ACM and other's are just talking.
> some of our PDF fanboy's like. zarvan bhai will come and start giving useless hopes to us...
> 
> Ramzan Sharif is coming insha Allah, just have wish Allah Rab ul Izzat gives Hidayat to our General's and Government to think about our Pakistan.


Sorry for my previous Agression. Ok now for your statement "Men Behind the machine" , Do you know CCS? COMBAT COMMANDERS SCHOOL? Do ask somebody that was this statement "Men behind the machine" made for the instructors there or not? . If you ask a well informed person , you will get very surprising answers.


----------



## Readerdefence

lovepakaramy said:


> Hi,
> Sir ap ker lijiye aqal ki bat, i am sure you have enough to say about this accident.
> or if you don't have so please don't tag me, not atleast to take a side of our shit government or our ACM's previous statements. like i just mentioned in my recent post.
> 
> Men behind the machine jab acha lagta hai jab machine operate hone k qabil ho, no killer machine who's eating our precious pilots's life.
> 
> Anyway. take care.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, we have nothing to do with their Su30. even if they lose 2 or 3 more. that won't effect their jet's number much.
> we should look into our force. we are running after time and Our ACM and other's are just talking.
> some of our PDF fanboy's like. zarvan bhai will come and start giving useless hopes to us...
> 
> Ramzan Sharif is coming insha Allah, just have wish Allah Rab ul Izzat gives Hidayat to our General's and Government to think about our Pakistan.


Bro love pak airforce also its very much obvious that ACM is way ahaed of my & your concerned thoughts and please prey for your love one and love of your country generals or no generals 
WW2 generals were not the on,y one who fought it's your fellow countrymen also 
Any way we all have to think about Pakistan one way or the other 
Thx


----------



## messiach

Aircraft was coming to land? can it be pilot error.


----------



## khanasifm

https://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2016/01/07/usaf-accidents-spiked-2015/78359132/


----------



## khanasifm

https://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2016/01/07/usaf-accidents-spiked-2015/78359132/


----------



## khanasifm

http://www.defencejournal.com/aug98/airaccidents.htm


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## Safriz

PAF has certainly lowered their pilot and crew standard .
Back in the 90s despite acute shortage of parts the PAF didn't have such high crash rate as they have now for the past few years.

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## WarFariX

شاھین میزایل said:


> PAF has certainly lowered their pilot and crew standard .
> Back in the 90s despite acute shortage of parts the PAF didn't have such high crash rate as they have now for the past few years.


Ajeeb logic derahe ho ap :-/


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## Safriz

WarFariX said:


> Ajeeb logic derahe ho ap :-/


مجھے اردو نھیں آتی ۔ انگریجی میں لکھیں ۔


----------



## Talon

messiach said:


> Aircraft was coming to land? can it be pilot error.


Negative,machine fault



Imran Khan said:


> nothing happen wrong sir
> 
> f-7 was abut to retired and officer is safe in front of us just chilling


It was a PG not P and PGs are newer aircrafts and arent going to retire soon..and he's not chilling hosh urr jaty hain ejection hone pe...



WarFariX said:


> Why is it that whenever PAF gets active, our jets crashes? :-/ If this goes on then during war times our mirages and F-7s will betray us and we will lose numbers quickly :-/. Alhamdullilah Sqn.Leader is safe
> 
> ab sai wali besti honi hai india ke hathon...bolenge ke kal ACM ne sari forward bases operational kardin aur aj apna jahaz gira dia..last time jab ye hoa tha to humara thunder arabian sea mein crash hogaya tha


Sirf aik FOB active hoi hy bhaii...na FB wali baten post kro idhr...


----------



## WarFariX

Hodor said:


> Negative,machine fault
> 
> 
> It was a PG not P and PGs are newer aircrafts and arent going to retire soon..and he's not chilling hosh urr jaty hain ejection hone pe...
> 
> 
> Sirf aik FOB active hoi hy bhaii...na FB wali baten post kro idhr...


ap kon , MZ bhai ?


----------



## Talon

WarFariX said:


> ap kon , MZ bhai ?


not ur MZ bhaii


----------



## WarFariX

Hodor said:


> not ur MZ bhaii


To phir kon  , itni samajhdari ki batein aur kon karsakta hai :-/ ? hmmm



WarFariX said:


> To phir kon  , itni samajhdari ki batein aur kon karsakta hai :-/ ? hmmm


harsh


----------



## Talon

WarFariX said:


> To phir kon  , itni samajhdari ki batein aur kon karsakta hai :-/ ? hmmm
> 
> 
> harsh


Are u trying to be sarcastic...?


----------



## WarFariX

Hodor said:


> Are u trying to be sarcastic...?


G , Batao na kon ho :-/


----------



## Talon

WarFariX said:


> G , Batao na kon ho :-/


Forget it man..

The a/c that crashed yesterday..pity cant upload the full picture..

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## Readerdefence

Hodor said:


> Forget it man..
> 
> The a/c that crashed yesterday..pity cant upload the full picture..
> View attachment 399374


Pilot was same as mentioned on plane ?


----------



## Talon

Readerdefence said:


> Pilot was same as mentioned on plane ?


No,he was Sq ldr Saad...was recently posted on PG

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## Readerdefence

Hodor said:


> No,he was Sq ldr Saad...was recently posted on PG


Thx for your input beside this any reason for the crash general one if not specific 
Thx

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## Talon

Readerdefence said:


> Thx for your input beside this any reason for the crash general one if not specific
> Thx


Engine fault...


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## Readerdefence

Hodor said:


> Engine fault...


Thx bro and why we generally have engine problem beside the bird strike 
Excessive use or the fuel we are using not up to the standards or excessive 
Throttling


----------



## Talon

Readerdefence said:


> Thx bro


Sure...



Readerdefence said:


> Thx bro and why we generally have engine problem beside the bird strike
> Excessive use or the fuel we are using not up to the standards or excessive
> Throttling


I'll give u a simple answer for that: 
Like all machines get issues in them,same happens to the aircrafts...
P.s I myself captured the photo that i posted above in sept last year and back then it looked great in condition a lot better than F-7Ps there...so as earlier a guy here said SH*IT HAPPENS...

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## Salza

F7s and Mirages are flying coffins in PAF ranks. They are bound to crash every second month. We really need to replace them with JF17s on emergency basis. Its really surprising and scary to know that they we are still flying them in 2017.


----------



## khanasifm

Salman Zahidi said:


> F7s and Mirages are flying coffins in PAF ranks. They are bound to crash every second month. We really need to replace them with JF17s on emergency basis. Its really surprising and scary to know that they we are still flying them in 2017.



Tell us something we do not know  


With due respect

Even paf is aware of it and bottom line a third world country can only afford what it can and keep flying with its ingenuity

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## lovepakaramy

Readerdefence said:


> Bro love pak airforce also its very much obvious that ACM is way ahaed of my & your concerned thoughts and please prey for your love one and love of your country generals or no generals
> WW2 generals were not the on,y one who fought it's your fellow countrymen also
> Any way we all have to think about Pakistan one way or the other
> Thx



hi,
dear, i love Pak Airforce too my profile name i just like that...
I wanted to be combat Pilot bt my bad coudn't get a chance .

Anyway, on topic.
dear our General should think first for Pakistan... they are just giving false hopes to their nations.
but result so far 0.
yes pak army and navy doing great job.
how about PAF. jst crying for fundings. running after junks f-soola.
why not asking china assistance for new fighters. until when they will stick with sh*t?
or they are waiting for byte frm Uncle Sam? i am sure the answer is Big YES!
This Pakistani nation, Government and some of our General will never learn. 

Allah bless Pakistan and showing his blessing's on our Pakistani's and Muslim all over the World.

Ramadan Mubarak to all my sister's and brother's.

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## Zarvan

Salman Zahidi said:


> F7s and Mirages are flying coffins in PAF ranks. They are bound to crash every second month. We really need to replace them with JF17s on emergency basis. Its really surprising and scary to know that they we are still flying them in 2017.


Not only JF-17 but also time to re consider J-10 specially the latest version J-10 C. J-10 C can be the real replacement for Mirages

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## WarFariX

Hodor said:


> No,he was Sq ldr Saad...was recently posted on PG


now i know who your are 100% ;-)


----------



## Talon

WarFariX said:


> now i know who your are 100% ;-)


U dont even have the slightest idea of who i am


----------



## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> U dont even have the slightest idea of who i am



Hi,

Unless you don't introduce yourself---who you are---people are going to assume that you are --------?

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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Unless you don't introduce yourself---who you are---people are going to assume that you are --------?


Hi yourself,
U should have read all previous messages before commenting..anyways i didnt ask him to make assumptions about me..he himself is making guesses..
PEACE!


----------



## WarFariX

Hodor said:


> U dont even have the slightest idea of who i am


I know you very well bro. UM


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Unless you don't introduce yourself---who you are---people are going to assume that you are --------?


Actually we both know each other from fb but he thinks i dont know who he is in pdf names


Hodor said:


> Hi yourself,
> U should have read all previous messages before commenting..anyways i didnt ask him to make assumptions about me..he himself is making guesses..
> PEACE!


 Itna rude behaviour sir MK ke sath


----------



## Talon

WarFariX said:


> I know you very well bro. UM
> 
> Actually we both know each other from fb but he thinks i dont know who he is in pdf names
> Itna rude behaviour sir MK ke sath


Ok if ur so sure that u know me then send me a message on Facebook..which we'll be of course sent to someone else not me...
And no i am not being rude...


----------



## danke

So 2nd crash within 1 month. PAF seems to be losing jets at a pretty fast clip. 
Reason ? Poor maintenance ?


----------



## WarFariX

Hodor said:


> Ok if ur so sure that u know me then send me a message on Facebook..which we'll be of course sent to someone else not me...
> And no i am not being rude...


No use in sending...you will still ignore me and say "wth r u talking abt"

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## Talon

WarFariX said:


> No use in sending...you will still ignore me and say "wth r u talking abt"


Damn son....ok i give up..u arent going to accept i am someone else..which I really am..

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## hacker J

Anyone ? Was the f7 pg a part of latest batch bought in 2000s ??
Or older plane. Anyways it was a two seater so was it on a training mission ?


----------



## WarFariX

danke said:


> So 2nd crash within 1 month. PAF seems to be losing jets at a pretty fast clip.
> Reason ? Poor maintenance ?


Not poor maintainence. When a person gets aged , he despite of having high treatments , suffer from problems related to many organs and bones. Same case here...But the thing is that PG are not that old to crash just like that :-/


----------



## Talon

WarFariX said:


> Not poor maintainence. When a person gets aged , he despite of having high treatments , suffer from problems related to many organs and bones. Same case here...But the thing is that PG are not that old to crash just like that :-/


Are u really 27? -.-


----------



## IHK_PK

Salman Zahidi said:


> F7s and Mirages are flying coffins in PAF ranks. They are bound to crash every second month. We really need to replace them with JF17s on emergency basis. Its really surprising and scary to know that they we are still flying them in 2017.


7 SU-30's Which r introduced in late 90's, produced locally in india and 60 fighters & helicopters were crashed in last 5 years.
So, we should not panic that much, shit happens.

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## WarFariX

Hodor said:


> Are u really 27? -.-


kyun bachon ko tang karte ho uncle


----------



## Humble Analyst

Salman Zahidi said:


> F7s and Mirages are flying coffins in PAF ranks. They are bound to crash every second month. We really need to replace them with JF17s on emergency basis. Its really surprising and scary to know that they we are still flying them in 2017.



JF 17 is not the replacement for mirages. Just look at the height of the planes and you will see that JF 17 cannot carry some bigger bombs. 
So please pay some attention to detail.

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## WarFariX

Humble Analyst said:


> JF 17 is not the replacement for mirages. Just look at the height of the planes and you will see that JF 17 cannot carry some bigger bombs.
> So please pay some attention to detail.


According to PAF , JF-17 can perfectly replace mirages..It can overtake all mirage roles. Now plz stick to the thread.


----------



## MastanKhan

Humble Analyst said:


> JF 17 is not the replacement for mirages. Just look at the height of the planes and you will see that JF 17 cannot carry some bigger bombs.
> So please pay some attention to detail.



Hi,

Thank you for bringing that out---indeed the Paf forgot to consider the ALCM's configurations when they were designing the JF17.

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## blinder

Hodor said:


> Forget it man..
> 
> The a/c that crashed yesterday..pity cant upload the full picture..
> View attachment 399374



Thanks for sharing Hodor.

Can you be more specific please? Do you mean:
the _same type_ of aircraft (an F-7PG), or
the _exact same_ aircraft (number 830)?

The Sqn Ldr wears a 20sq patch on his flight suit btw.
Some scary moments... but he got out okay and the a/c crashed into farmland.


----------



## Humble Analyst

danke said:


> If jets are so old then why risk the lives of pilots ?
> Old men are not useful in wars.


Old men can be very useful in wars



WarFariX said:


> According to PAF , JF-17 can perfectly replace mirages..It can overtake all mirage roles. Now plz stick to the thread.


I know enough to ignore your statement, and if you cannot see the relevance to the thread I am not surprised.


----------



## razgriz19

WarFariX said:


> Not poor maintainence. When a person gets aged , he despite of having high treatments , suffer from problems related to many organs and bones. Same case here...But the thing is that PG are not that old to crash just like that :-/



Poor maintenance, or Pilot error. Parts just don't fail unless they were faulty from the start.


----------



## Talon

blinder said:


> Thanks for sharing Hodor.
> 
> Can you be more specific please? Do you mean:
> the _same type_ of aircraft (an F-7PG), or
> the _exact same_ aircraft (number 830)?
> 
> The Sqn Ldr wears a 20sq patch on his flight suit btw.
> Some scary moments... but he got out okay and the a/c crashed into farmland.


The exact same aircraft #830(i have the cockpit pictures as well) and yes its from 20 sqn of course...he got out okay but will remain grounded for about 6 months and maybe will be transferred to some other a/c as he recently got posted on PG..

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## WarFariX

Hodor said:


> The exact same aircraft #830(i have the cockpit pictures as well) and yes its from 20 sqn of course...he got out okay but will remain grounded for about 6 months and maybe will be transferred to some other a/c as he recently got posted on PG..


So BTW what was the reason of crash? and when was 830 inducted?


----------



## Talon

WarFariX said:


> So BTW what was the reason of crash? and when was 830 inducted?


Engine Fault...dont know when inducted i dont have records of a/c induction dates(that was seriously a childish question)

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## AMG_12

Hodor said:


> Engine Fault...dont know when inducted i dont have records of a/c induction dates(that was seriously a childish question)


Can you post the cockpit pictures? Never seen a PG's cockpit.


----------



## Talon

Game.Invade said:


> Can you post the cockpit pictures? Never seen a PG's cockpit.


Sorry cant do that..

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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> The exact same aircraft #830(i have the cockpit pictures as well) and yes its from 20 sqn of course...he got out okay but will remain grounded for about 6 months and maybe will be transferred to some other a/c as he recently got posted on PG..


Or he might carry on the same type but after some time. My dad ejected from the F-16 in 1987 but he was back flying it 4 days later. However some admin stuff happened and then he got posted to *FIS *right away. 2 years later he came back to fly F-16s.

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## WarFariX

Knuckles said:


> Or he might carry on the same type but after some time. My dad ejected from the F-16 in 1987 but he was back flying it 4 days later. However some admin stuff happened and then he got posted to *FIS *right away. 2 years later he came back to fly F-16s.


At that time i guess we had less F-16 pilots too so losing any would be great loss ?

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## Talon

Knuckles said:


> Or he might carry on the same type but after some time. My dad ejected from the F-16 in 1987 but he was back flying it 4 days later. However some admin stuff happened and then he got posted to *FIS *right away. 2 years later he came back to fly F-16s.


The one that got friendly missile hit?
F/L Shahid Sikandar?

Replying to ur post PAF has changed a lot now...the pilot who crashed SL Saad had around 300 something hours on PG i think but he was serving as Instructor at risalpur and had just came back on PG and his 8th mission caused him to eject.Now he has enough hours to stay on PG but PAF is not short of PG pilots and it recently transferred some PG pilots to another a/c so same might happen to the subject pilot..


----------



## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> The one that got friendly missile hit?
> F/L Shahid Sikandar?
> 
> Replying to ur post PAF has changed a lot now...the pilot who crashed SL Saad had around 300 something hours on PG i think but he was serving as Instructor at risalpur and had just came back on PG and his 8th mission caused him to eject.Now he has enough hours to stay on PG but PAF is not short of PG pilots and it recently transferred some PG pilots to another a/c so same might happen to the subject pilot..



Wing Commander eventually. F/L at that time. 
Cheers !!!

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## ghazi52

Villagers attending a PAF Pilot who's jet an F-7PG crashed near Mianwali.
Villagers appreciated the Pilot's effort to save life and property on ground and taking evasive maneuvers to crash his doomed jet on open uninhabited ground.

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## Windjammer

*Even a safe ejection can leave it's marks.*

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## Trisonics

*Pak Army drone crashes in Bahawalnagar*

Pakistan Army’s drone crashed in Bahawalnagar today due to technical glitches but no life loss has been traced yet.



According to sources, the drone fell in the fields of Muhammadpur area of Bahawalnagar when drone was on monitoring

Large number of people reached the area to participate in the rescue activity.

A team of Pakistan Army arrived at the scene and removed the debris. Moreover, investigation into the matter has been launched.

http://nation.com.pk/national/07-Jun-2017/pak-army-drone-crashes-in-bahawalnagar

[[[ Please delete if a drone crash does not qualify here ]]]


----------



## IHK_PK

What type of drone was that? Pls share it's type and specs.


----------



## Windjammer

IHK_PK said:


> What type of drone was that? Pls share it's type and specs.


It seems to be a LUNA UAV.


----------



## muhammadali233

Windjammer said:


> It seems to be a LUNA UAV.
> 
> View attachment 403564


seems like the safey chute deployed


----------



## Windjammer

muhammadali233 said:


> seems like the safey chute deployed


Yes, more of a controlled crash hence very little damage.

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## Panther 57

Just heard there is a crash of F-7 near Mianwali. Pilot sustained fatal injury Wg Cdr Zeeshan. Can anyone confirm.

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## The Accountant

Panther 57 said:


> Just heard there is a crash of F-7 near Mianwali. Pilot sustained fatal injury Wg Cdr Zeeshan. Can anyone confirm.


Nothing on news yet


----------



## Talon

Panther 57 said:


> Just heard there is a crash of F-7 near Mianwali. Pilot sustained fatal injury Wg Cdr Zeeshan. Can anyone confirm.


Happened last night,he was OC of 18 sqn.



The Accountant said:


> Nothing on news yet

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## The Accountant

Hodor said:


> Happened last night,he was OC of 18 sqn.


Sad news

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## Tps43

Panther 57 said:


> Just heard there is a crash of F-7 near Mianwali. Pilot sustained fatal injury Wg Cdr Zeeshan. Can anyone confirm.


Did he survived?


----------



## Talon

tps77 said:


> Did he survived?


FATAL means causing death/martyrdom

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## Tps43

Hodor said:


> FATAL means causing death/martyrdom


My bad , I had affiliated with sqn in past some how but losing a pilot is much much worst than lossing an operational asset

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## The Diplomat

May Allah grant the pilot Jannat Ul Fardoos and give Sabr to his family. Ameen

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## Taygibay

Panther 57 said:


> Pilot sustained fatal injury Wg Cdr Zeeshan.





Hodor said:


> Happened last night,he was OC of 18 sqn.



R.I.P. sir!

Tay.

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## Chak Bamu

Inna lillah wa inna ilaihi rajioun.

Very sad to hear of Wing Commander Zeeshan's martyrdom. May Allah grant his family sabr.


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## Yerusalem 4880 Kms

tps77 said:


> I had affiliated with sqn in past some how


Sir you are PAF officer / Pilot?


----------



## STRANGER BIRD

Panther 57 said:


> crash of F-7 near Mianwali.


Most of PAF aircraft crashed near Mianwali , Need to investigate the cause & problem of Accidents.


----------



## Panther 57

STRANGER BIRD said:


> Most of PAF aircraft crashed near Mianwali , Need to investigate the cause & problem of Accidents.


Rest assured PAF will have an inquiry into it and will reach conclusive root cause


----------



## The Accountant

Which base it was


Panther 57 said:


> Rest assured PAF will have an inquiry into it and will reach conclusive root cause


----------



## Panther 57

The Accountant said:


> Which base it was


Mianwali


----------



## Tps43

Amulet said:


> Sir you are PAF officer / Pilot?


Not exactly.


----------



## khanasifm

STRANGER BIRD said:


> Most of PAF aircraft crashed near Mianwali , Need to investigate the cause & problem of Accidents.



Yes because landing and take off are most dangerous part of flying and base at mianwali plus most old f7s at same base also most of the new / young pilot at same place so too many factors at same locations not sure about the weather being a factor as well  guessing

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## Talon

Pilot's body of the recent crash hasnt been found yet...!
@tps77 @khanasifm @The Accountant


----------



## Khanate

*إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ*

High time to get rid of F-7s or they will keep falling out of skies.

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## khanasifm

Actually it's pg per one of the news paper no 20 sqn relocated to mm Alam


----------



## volatile

Better to replace and supplement F7 P/PG`s with some thing capable

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## ghazi52

Inna lillah wa inna ilaihi rajioun.

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## imadul

RIP, Brave son of Pakistan. Winds of motherland salute you.
Most crash reports had been 40 yr old mirage III/IV. F7-PG's seems better record? When were they inducted?


----------



## Windjammer

Wing Commander Zeeshan Atta Commanding Officer No 18 Squadron (Sharpshooters) embraced martyrdom In an Unfortunate F7 P crash. R.I.P brave warrior.


----------



## MastanKhan

STRANGER BIRD said:


> Most of PAF aircraft crashed near Mianwali , Need to investigate the cause & problem of Accidents.



Hi,

That is a very interesting and intriguing comment.

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## khanasifm

The pic showed ac no 03-689 so induction year of 2003 it was pg 

PAF fighter pilot martyred in aircraft crash near Mianwali 

http://www.dawn.com/news/1350584/paf-fighter-pilot-martyred-in-aircraft-crash-near-mianwali

Guessing


----------



## Clairvoyant

Really hate to say this but this was another case of a Controlled flight into terrain due to spatial disorientation,may he rest in peace.Just shows how deadly this condition is and can happen to anyone no matter how senior the rank.


----------



## blinder

khanasifm said:


> The pic showed ac no 03-689 so induction year of 2003 it was pg
> 
> PAF fighter pilot martyred in aircraft crash near Mianwali
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1350584/paf-fighter-pilot-martyred-in-aircraft-crash-near-mianwali
> 
> Guessing



That FT-7PG 03-689 was the one that crashed in November 2015. This was an F-7P from the OCU (18sq).


----------



## Talon

khanasifm said:


> The pic showed ac no 03-689 so induction year of 2003 it was pg
> 
> PAF fighter pilot martyred in aircraft crash near Mianwali
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1350584/paf-fighter-pilot-martyred-in-aircraft-crash-near-mianwali
> 
> Guessing


This news is full of false information,even pilot's name is wrong..the a/c was surely an F7p

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## MastanKhan

Imadafridi said:


> Really hate to say this but this was another case of a Controlled flight into terrain due to spatial disorientation,may he rest in peace.Just shows how deadly this condition is and can happen to anyone no matter how senior the rank.



Hi,

It would be worth it to have " The Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System ".


----------



## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is a very interesting and intriguing comment.


Combination of ocu squadrons and older aircraft tend to do that.

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## Windjammer

R.I.P. Brave son of soil.

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## Clairvoyant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It would be worth it to have " The Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System ".



You can't just put that system into an old aircraft which is on the verge of being phased out while you don't have the same system in the newer aircraft,its sad to see a precious life lost but at the same time we need to keep in mind that there was nothing wrong with the aircraft.The F.7PG that crashed in Peshawar during broad daylight during last year's high mark exercise crashed due to a mix of poor visibility and disorientation.


----------



## MastanKhan

Imadafridi said:


> You can't just put that system into an old aircraft which is on the verge of being phased out while you don't have the same system in the newer aircraft,its sad to see a precious life lost but at the same time we need to keep in mind that there was nothing wrong with the aircraft.The F.7PG that crashed in Peshawar during broad daylight during last year's high mark exercise crashed due to a mix of poor visibility and disorientation.



Hi,

You cannot replace a wing commander--he is worth more alive.

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## fatman17

PAF F-7P fighter jet crashes, Pilot WC Shahzad martyred




Does PAF ground it's aircraft, F7Ps after a crash or routine training continues normal.

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## khanasifm

Last f7p sqn no 18 will convert soon within a year I guess

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## umair86pk

CCS also operate them in adversary role

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## fatman17

Looks like CFIT

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## Talon

Imadafridi said:


> You can't just put that system into an old aircraft which is on the verge of being phased out while you don't have the same system in the newer aircraft,its sad to see a precious life lost but at the same time we need to keep in mind that there was nothing wrong with the aircraft.The F.7PG that crashed in Peshawar during broad daylight during last year's high mark exercise crashed due to a mix of poor visibility and disorientation.


If u are talking about Flt Lt Umer,the a/c was all good so yeah it was pilot error..pity we lost that guy he was best of the best.I was lucky to have a friend like him.



fatman17 said:


> View attachment 417653
> 
> Looks like CFIT


Yes it was,the a/c hit the ground with high speed and pilot's body was torn to pieces that's why i took time to find him...RIP.

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## hacker J

I think pakistan should reduce flying these old machines and train pilots on newer j17s , F16s, and some PGs(because sooner they will be replaced as per sources). These old aircrafts can be made battle ready but not flown much. Is this possible ?


----------



## Clairvoyant

It was in fact CFIT and that's why his body wasnt found,people tend to blame these jets for being old but problem is at times perfectly fit aircraft crash due to one reason or the other.

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## blinder

Let us wait for the crash investigation conclusions.

Meanwhile, please realize that you should take into account the number of flight hours and type of sorties made before a qualification on the safety of any type can be made.

Normally, when a technical failure is suspected or found, the fleet will be temporarily grounded to inspect and - if necessary - repair them. Or ammend operational / safety procedures.

The decision on grounding or withdrawing a type altogether, would be done after an assesment of the over-all safety records, cost-per-flight hour, maintenance effort needed to keep the fleet airworthy, availiabilty of spare parts, availability of alternative assets.

And although the JF-17 is on the horizon to maybe take on the role of lead-in fighter training after a while, there will still be the other role of type conversion for the F-7PG fleet, maintaining flight hours for F-7 instructors and CCS operations.

So even the F-7P will still be here for (at least?) another five years and the F-7PG for around a decade I think.

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## Horizon303

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 417653
> 
> Looks like CFIT


Sir, it could be Spatial disorientation?

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## messiach

CA, AAIB and DoT are responsible for standard, transparent & hard-hitting air disaster inquiries. SI and BoI are generally lacking transparency requirements. Transparency and external audit are mandatory for all professional organisations incld. PAF preventing critical incidents, incompetence, neglect or professional dishonesty. While PAF is now aspiring for the skies, they should adopt AAIB/DoT standards requirements, otherwise it can demoralize workforce.



Windjammer said:


> R.I.P. Brave son of soil.
> 
> View attachment 417549

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> If u are talking about Flt Lt Umer,the a/c was all good so yeah it was pilot error..pity we lost that guy he was best of the best.I was lucky to have a friend like him.
> 
> 
> Yes it was,the a/c hit the ground with high speed and pilot's body was torn to pieces that's why i took time to find him...RIP.


Unfortunately people do not realize how fast distance is covered going at 400-500 knots. airliners fly high and the speed does not translate into its scale. I had the chance of going low in beech King air at 250 knots and even that seemed quite fast where even the slightest of error can make you end up literally digging your own grave.

Aircraft are also machines that obey the laws of physics including inertia and so on. Display teams around the world are made of some of the best of pilots who train for such displays day in and day out; they too end up making mistakes.

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## fatman17

Horizon303 said:


> Sir, it could be Spatial disorientation?


True I'm not an expert on such matters as others claim to be.


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## Talon

Oscar said:


> Unfortunately people do not realize how fast distance is covered going at 400-500 knots. airliners fly high and the speed does not translate into its scale. I had the chance of going low in beech King air at 250 knots and even that seemed quite fast where even the slightest of error can make you end up literally digging your own grave.
> 
> Aircraft are also machines that obey the laws of physics including inertia and so on. Display teams around the world are made of some of the best of pilots who train for such displays day in and day out; they too end up making mistakes.


Yup,lower the altitude,faster the speed appears and so is the chance of collision.
Pilots just focus on the HUD while flying at AGL though a friend of mine took selfie while flying very low xD

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## Thorough Pro

I am sure there must be some rules to follow when flying below a certain height, and if your friend has broiken them, he must be grounded for endangering his own life, life of people on the ground, and risking the loss of a national asset. 



Hodor said:


> Yup,lower the altitude,faster the speed appears and so is the chance of collision.
> Pilots just focus on the HUD while flying at AGL though a friend of mine took selfie while flying very low xD
> View attachment 418091


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## Ahmet Pasha

Hodor said:


> Yup,lower the altitude,faster the speed appears and so is the chance of collision.
> Pilots just focus on the HUD while flying at AGL though a friend of mine took selfie while flying very low xD
> View attachment 418091



Bein a pro pilot could u please share with us small things which piss u off about ur job like for example what if u suddenly need to go to the bathroom while u r flying from Sargodha to Waziristan to bomb TTP???
Wat are some wird quirks or pet peeves of your job as fighter pilot.

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## Talon

Thorough Pro said:


> I am sure there must be some rules to follow when flying below a certain height, and if your friend has broiken them, he must be grounded for endangering his own life, life of people on the ground, and risking the loss of a national asset.


This photo is about two years old and ths guy is one of the best pilots i know,a pro dogfighter...PAF doesnt grounds pilots on whom it has spent so much just bcuz of a picture..PAF pilots fly above villages on low heights u cant even imagine so there's no big deal in that.
P.S a pilot's life is always in danger and so is the a/c.



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Bein a pro pilot could u please share with us small things which piss u off about ur job like for example what if u suddenly need to go to the bathroom while u r flying from Sargodha to Waziristan to bomb TTP???
> Wat are some wird quirks or pet peeves of your job as fighter pilot.


open the canopy and do ur hajat while flying at angels 20 
why would u ask such a lame question?
P.s Did i ever mention i am a fighter pilot? i dont think so

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## Yerusalem 4880 Kms

Hodor said:


> AF doesnt grounds pilots on whom it has spent so much just bcuz of a picture


A friend of my Uncle grounded for 3 months for flying too low and observed by his senior.
They do discipline the rowdy pilots quite fervently.


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## Talon

Amulet said:


> A friend of my Uncle grounded for 3 months for flying too low and observed by his senior.
> They do discipline the rowdy pilots quite fervently.


He would have done it outside of the mission thats why...and he was grounded for 3 months we are talking about grounding permanently
And that too happens only when the pilot gets identified


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## Yerusalem 4880 Kms

Hodor said:


> He would have done it outside of the mission thats why...and he was grounded for 3 months we are talking about grounding permanently
> And that too happens only when the pilot gets identified


Yes he did it over the airbase and his senior reported him.


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## Talon

Amulet said:


> Yes he did it over the airbase and his senior reported him.


he must have been HIGH to do such thing over an airbase xD

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## Yerusalem 4880 Kms

Hodor said:


> he must have been HIGH to do such thing over an airbase xD


Testosterone.

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## Talon

Amulet said:


> Testosterone.


Ahahaha


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## messiach

Has the cause of CFIT been determined? 


fatman17 said:


> True I'm not an expert on such matters as others claim to be.


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## Dazzler

Imadafridi said:


> You can't just put that system into an old aircraft which is on the verge of being phased out while you don't have the same system in the newer aircraft,its sad to see a precious life lost but at the same time we need to keep in mind that there was nothing wrong with the aircraft.The F.7PG that crashed in Peshawar during broad daylight during last year's high mark exercise crashed due to a mix of poor visibility and disorientation.



PGs do have it, dont think the Ps have them or not. 

All PGs were upgraded with GCAS few years ago.

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 417653
> 
> Looks like CFIT


Do our f16 and thundera have ground collision avoiding system ?

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## fatman17

messiach said:


> Has the cause of CFIT been determined?


We'll never know

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## messiach

Being involved with DoT inquiries, they are very hard hitting. No less than seven agencies & two external blind-folded auditors are involved as standard. A hard hitting inquiry is moral boosting, otherwise they end up as black-holes.


fatman17 said:


> We'll never know

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## Thorough Pro

Rules are rules. Period. If the best of the best and the pro's don't follow them, what example do they set for the rest?



Hodor said:


> This photo is about two years old and ths guy is one of the best pilots i know,a pro dogfighter...PAF doesnt grounds pilots on whom it has spent so much just bcuz of a picture..PAF pilots fly above villages on low heights u cant even imagine so there's no big deal in that.
> P.S a pilot's life is always in danger and so is the a/c.
> 
> 
> open the canopy and do ur hajat while flying at angels 20
> why would u ask such a lame question?
> P.s Did i ever mention i am a fighter pilot? i dont think so

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## fatman17

messiach said:


> Being involved with DoT inquiries, they are very hard hitting. No less than seven agencies & two external blind-folded auditors are involved as standard. A hard hitting inquiry is moral boosting, otherwise they end up as black-holes.


Our crash inquiries are somehow confidential. We get information through unofficial sources which may or may not be accurate. leads to sensationalism.

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## SQ8

Speculation is futile in this matter. What we do know so far is that the pilot slammed into a hill.

A sort of relatable incident is when the PN lost an orion over the sea a few years ago during mock exercises against the then new 90b. All hands were lost and many at the time(even those within the force but not in that branch) were quick to blame the pilot for it as MaD(Magnetic Anomaly Detector) runs are done at around 200-100ft.

From what I recall hearing of it(a_nd I could be mistaken or basing my info on early investigation_) was that the aircraft had begun its Anomaly run at the usual altitude or less as the 90b is still a damn quiet sub the pilot dropped to the altitude. Now these were non upgraded orion and they have very rudimentary autopilots if any so the pilot has to constantly keep his hands there or trim the aircraft perfectly. That day, during a run while they were trying to corner the 90b the orion slammed into the water. You could blame the pilot for making an error as an error at 100ft is not forgivable especially by a large turboprop, but as it turned out after recovery of the box; the outer engine on the aircraft had failed just during that run and besides losing altitude sent the aircraft into asymmetric yaw and it cartwheeled into pieces. The time between engine failure to impact took less than 5 seconds.

@Rashid Mahmood might be able to shed some light.

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> Speculation is futile in this matter. What we do know so far is that the pilot slammed into a hill.
> 
> A sort of relatable incident is when the PN lost an orion over the sea a few years ago during mock exercises against the then new 90b. All hands were lost and many at the time(even those within the force but not in that branch) were quick to blame the pilot for it as MaD(Magnetic Anomaly Detector) runs are done at around 200-100ft.
> 
> From what I recall hearing of it(a_nd I could be mistaken or basing my info on early investigation_) was that the aircraft had begun its Anomaly run at the usual altitude or less as the 90b is still a damn quiet sub the pilot dropped to the altitude. Now these were non upgraded orion and they have very rudimentary autopilots if any so the pilot has to constantly keep his hands there or trim the aircraft perfectly. That day, during a run while they were trying to corner the 90b the orion slammed into the water. You could blame the pilot for making an error as an error at 100ft is not forgivable especially by a large turboprop, but as it turned out after recovery of the box; the outer engine on the aircraft had failed just during that run and besides losing altitude sent the aircraft into asymmetric yaw and it cartwheeled into pieces. The time between engine failure to impact took less than 5 seconds.
> 
> @Rashid Mahmood might be able to shed some light.



Hi,

What do you think about the failed engine---they don't go out just like that during flight without warning---do they?

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## Talon

Thorough Pro said:


> Rules are rules. Period. If the best of the best and the pro's don't follow them, what example do they set for the rest?


I think u didnt properly read what i said..

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## messiach

I know very well, have attended proceedings of at-least one. I was contrasting against international standards. 


fatman17 said:


> Our crash inquiries are somehow confidential. We get information through unofficial sources which may or may not be accurate. leads to sensationalism.

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## blinder

I think only the conclusion will be published in a short official statement after the inquiries into the crash have finished. 
Btw I do not know many air forces that publish the integral crash investigation report? 
Also, most air forces shy away from publishing the exact subtype and/or serial number of the crashed aircraft. In my view the serial number is just the tax payer's receipt number on the article they paid for, but I know most officials have a different view on that

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What do you think about the failed engine---they don't go out just like that during flight without warning---do they?


Actually they do at times(not the reason but without warning), you're in a turboprop around 100ft- anything from sea spray to just poor fuel can cause it.

I was trying to work with the PAF(prior to the bribes and commissions souring my mouth) on an instrument that tests fuel for deposits and impurities- to my knowledge they still don't have this instrument in their 70 years of existence and the one used these days is a 1970s spec out if a Ogdc ancient lab.

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## messiach

Turboprop must not fail like this. Such engines should be vulnerable for contained or un-contained failures at liftoff.


Oscar said:


> Actually they do at times(not the reason but without warning), you're in a turboprop around 100ft- anything from sea spray to just poor fuel can cause it.

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> Turboprop must not fail like this. Such engines should be vulnerable for contained or un-contained failures at liftoff.


They are not common, can be maintenance errors, crew error or just plain Murphy's law
Status:
Date: Friday 22 September 1978
Time: ca 12:15
Type:





Lockheed P-3B Orion
Operator: United States Navy
Registration: 152757
C/n / msn: 185-5199
First flight: 1966
Crew: Fatalities: 8 / Occupants: 8
Passengers: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 0
Total: Fatalities: 8 / Occupants: 8
Airplane damage: Damaged beyond repair
Location: near Poland, ME (



United States of America)
Phase: En route (ENR)
Nature: Military
Departure airport: Brunswick NAS, ME (NHZ/KNHZ), United States of America
Destination airport: Trenton Airport, ON (YTR/CYTR), Canada
Narrative:
The P-3 Orion departed Brunswick at 12:05 on a flight to Trenton, where it was to take part in an airshow. Some eight to ten minutes later the aircraft crashed in flames. 
Reportedly, the no. 1 engine experienced a "whirl mode" failure in turbulence. The no. 1 engine separated from the wing, along with an 11 feet outboard portion of the port wing. The wing part struck the port horizontal stabilizer, shearing it off. Aerodynamic forces then caused the (downward) separation of the remaining three engines. The starboard wing folded up at the wing root and broke away. The remainder of the aircraft rolled inverted and impacted the ground.

Status:
Date: Tuesday 26 June 1979
Type:




Lockheed P-3B Orion
Operator: United States Navy
Registration: 154596
C/n / msn: 185-5277
First flight: 1968
Crew: Fatalities: 5 / Occupants: 15
Passengers: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 0
Total: Fatalities: 5 / Occupants: 15
Airplane damage: Damaged beyond repair
Location: near Luzon Island-Cubi Point NAS (NCP) (



Philippines)
Phase: En route (ENR)
Nature: Military
Departure airport: Luzon Island-Cubi Point NAS (NCP), Philippines
Destination airport: ?
Narrative:
During climb out, approximately 15000 ft from Cubi Point, the P-3 crew lost engines number 1 and number 2.
It is believed that a gear box failure in engine no. 1 caused the propeller to depart striking engine no. 2. The crew attempted to return to Cubi Point NAS but the airplane crashed short of the runway.

Status:
Date: Saturday 25 March 1995
Type:




Lockheed P-3C Orion
Operator: United States Navy
Registration: 158217
C/n / msn: 185-5562
First flight:
Engines: 4 Allison T56-A14
Crew: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 11
Passengers: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 0
Total: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 11
Airplane damage: Damaged beyond repair
Location: 8 km (5 mls) off Masirah Airport (MSH) (



Oman)
Phase: Approach (APR)
Nature: Military
Departure airport: Masirah Airport (MSH/OOMA), Oman
Destination airport: Masirah Airport (MSH/OOMA), Oman
Narrative:
The propeller on the no. 4 engine separated during the descent into Masirah. The engine caught fire and subsequently the no. 3 engine's rpm decreased. The no. 3 engine was shut down. Simultaneously both no. 1 and 2 engines flamed out, resulting in a total electrical power loss. At about 2,500 feet, the pilot was able to control the aircraft again. The crew then ditched the plane.


Status:
Date: Friday 29 October 1999
Time: ca 12:00
Type:




Lockheed P-3C-II.75 Orion
Operator: Pakistan Navy Air Arm
Registration: 83
C/n / msn: 185-5827
First flight: 1988
Crew: Fatalities: / Occupants:
Passengers: Fatalities: / Occupants:
Total: Fatalities: 21 / Occupants: 21
Airplane damage: Damaged beyond repair
Location: S off Pasni (



Pakistan)
Phase: En route (ENR)
Nature: Military
Departure airport: Karachi-Mehran NAS (OPSF), Pakistan
Destination airport: Karachi-Mehran NAS (OPSF), Pakistan
Narrative:
Crashed into the sea during a training mission.

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## messiach

No-1 whirl failure is engine-mount issue. Not relevant to engine. Usually at >400 mph.Not relevant to PN issue.
No-2 turboprop have known limitations at rapid ascent to altitude & higher speeds. 
No-3 Again the turboprop vulnerability at higher mph.


Oscar said:


> They are not common, can be maintenance errors, crew error or just plain Murphy's law

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> No-1 whirl failure is engine-mount issue. Not relevant to engine. Usually at >400 mph.Not relevant to PN issue.
> No-2 turboprop have known limitations at rapid ascent to altitude & higher speeds.
> No-3 Again the turboprop vulnerability at higher mph.


Not trying to correlate issue but the basic point of Murphy's law. It could be anything from poor maintenance to bas fuel to spray.. 

The basic issue is that pilot error or lack of reaction can get the best as well
Sully was a good example of how air investigators can reach poor conclusions without factoring in the human


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## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> Not trying to correlate issue but the basic point of Murphy's law. It could be anything from poor maintenance to bas fuel to spray..
> 
> The basic issue is that pilot error or lack of reaction can get the best as well
> Sully was a good example of how air investigators can reach poor conclusions without factoring in the human


Reports coming of another F-7 doing and pilot injured

پاک فضائیہ کاایف 7طیارہ سرگودھا کے قریب گر گیا،ترجمان پاک فضائیہ


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## Panther 57

Another F-7 Crashed near sargodha, pilots ejected.


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## SQ8

Zarvan said:


> Reports coming of another F-7 doing and pilot injured
> 
> پاک فضائیہ کاایف 7طیارہ سرگودھا کے قریب گر گیا،ترجمان پاک فضائیہ


I heard- these things happen in threes


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## Talon

Another PG goes down...


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## Zarvan

*PAF jet crashes while on training mission near Sargodha*


A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) jet crashed near Sargodha while on a training mission on Thursday, a press release issued by PAF said.

"PAF reports with regret that an F7-PG aircraft crashed near Sargodha while on a training mission. Search and rescue operation is in progress," the statement added.

A spokesman for the air force told _DawnNews_ it was being ascertained whether the lone pilot flying the aircraft has survived.

F7-PGs were first inducted in the PAF in 2002 as a replacement for the F-6, which were then decommissioned. The trainer FT-7PGs came later. The PAF had previously operated F-7Ps.

About nine or 10 F7-PGs/FT-7PGs have been lost during their 15 years in service. The PAF has more than 50 of the Chinese-made aircraft in its fleet.

The losses of F7-PGs/FT-7PGs in air crashes are within normal limits, aviation experts claim.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1352107


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## fatman17

PAF jet crashes while on training mission near Sargodha

Naveed Siddiqui
August 17, 2017


A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) jet crashed near Sargodha while on a training mission on Thursday, a press release issued by PAF said.

"PAF reports with regret that an F7-PG aircraft crashed near Sargodha while on a training mission. Search and rescue operation is in progress," the statement read.

A spokesman for the air force toldDawnNews it was being ascertained whether the lone pilot flying the aircraft has survived.

A little over a week ago, a senior PAF officer had embraced martyrdom when his aircraft crashed near Mianwali while on a routine operational flight.


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## Salza

So another one bites the dust. This is serious issue now. PAF has the worst crash rate in the last few years as compared to other Air forces. Just saying that the planes we are crashing are old ones (F7s, mirages) is not the answer. We really should review our daily operations and usage of these planes. I think our maintenance department is doing a very poor job. May be its very generalized statement but looking at the crashes every second week, one has to introspect fast - very fast.


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## fatman17

Salman Zahidi said:


> So another one bites the dust. This is serious issue now. PAF has the worst crash rate in the last few years as compared to other Air forces. Just saying that the planes we are crashing are old ones (F7s, mirages) is not the answer. We really should review our daily operations and usage of these planes. I think our maintenance department is doing a very poor job. May be its very generalized statement but looking at the crashes every second week, one has to introspect fast - very fast.


No it does not


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## WebMaster

fatman17 said:


> PAF jet crashes while on training mission near Sargodha
> 
> Naveed Siddiqui
> August 17, 2017
> 
> 
> A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) jet crashed near Sargodha while on a training mission on Thursday, a press release issued by PAF said.
> 
> "PAF reports with regret that an F7-PG aircraft crashed near Sargodha while on a training mission. Search and rescue operation is in progress," the statement read.
> 
> A spokesman for the air force toldDawnNews it was being ascertained whether the lone pilot flying the aircraft has survived.
> 
> A little over a week ago, a senior PAF officer had embraced martyrdom when his aircraft crashed near Mianwali while on a routine operational flight.



Hoping pilot survived but this sounds no good.

Time to ground them.

PAF jet crashes near Sargodha

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-7 PG jet crashed near Sargodha on Thursday, according to PAF spokesperson.

One PAF official, identified as Lieutenant Bilal, suffered a leg fracture as a result of the incident.

The jet was on a training mission, the spokesperson remarked, adding that rescue operation is under way.

According to details, the pilot had flown the jet from PAF Base Samungli, located near Quetta, to participate in training exercise in Sargodha, where the incident occurred. 

A board of inquiry has been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident.

On May 25, a PAF jet while on a routine operational training mission crashed near Mianwali, informed a PAF spokesperson.

The pilot of F-7 PG aircraft ejected safely and no loss of civilian life and property has been reported on ground, the spokesperson added.




*Training jet crashes near Mianwali: PAF*




On May 2, another PAF training jet crashed near Jhang's Athara Hazari. However, no casualties were reported as a consequence of the crash.

The pilot remained unhurt and safely ejected from the jet, the PAF said. The aircraft had crashed while on "routine operation training."
https://www.geo.tv/latest/154015-paf-jet-crashes-near-sargodha


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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> Hoping pilot survived but this sounds no good.
> 
> Time to ground them.


Yes its an issue everytime a aircraft crashes, having said that there is no need to hit the panic button as some posters here have.

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## NeonNinja

Very sad accident


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## Yaseen1

research and development and maintenance expense is compromised by granting high pension and salary to officers of armed forces to maintain their luxurious life

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## Sine Nomine

2nd crash in one month of same machine,time to withdraw them in Emergency and induct thunders.


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## Gregor Clegane

Don't know if this tweet is true, but if it is this would be the fourth PAF fighter jet crash in 2017.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/898060011871629312


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## Maxpane

oh so sad


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## IHK_PK

And as per TV news it is again the F7pg.... pg's are the newer models inducted in 2002 and yet they r falling like any thing... amazing.
Already 10 or so F7-PGs/FT-7PGs have been lost during their 15 years in service. The PAF still has around 50 of those left.


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## IHK_PK

Am talking about today's crash.. and don't u think something is seriously wrong with the PG's.

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## WebMaster

IHK_PK said:


> Am talking about today's crash.. and don't u think something is seriously wrong with the PG's.



Yes needs to be evaluated. Something has aged/faulty.


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## DarX

fatman17 said:


> Yes its an issue everytime a aircraft crashes, having said that there is no need to hit the panic button as some posters here have.



I need to ask why these F-7 crash in the first place. Unlike the Mirage fleet, these still have after sales support and get an easy supply of new spare parts. So why are they developing technical faults?


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## Safriz

Cloudy with a chance of F-7PG

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## Shane

No matter the aircraft in question, It always puts a smile on my face when I hear the pilot ejected safely. 

The previous one was sobering though. It directly effects the morale so surely PAF must be keen on investigating into the incidents.

May Allah Subhan Taala accept the sacrifices of our Martyrs and have mercy on the survivors, Aameen.

Although I understand that PGs are not that old but older F7s and Mirages have crashed. This is the time that PAF pushes its demands aggressively and parliamentry comitte on defence too must put pressure on the Govt. to procure new air superiority fighters so atleast there is no excuse of older jets being a reason for the crash.

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## fatman17

One PAF official, identified as Flight Lieutenant Bilal, suffered a leg fracture as a result of the incident.

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## Windjammer

*Lets Hear For Our Brave Pilots, Who Had Zero Fear Of Death. They Ejected After Ensuring The Safety Of Residents Of Bhagtanwala. This Courage & Strength Make Our Pilots Best Of The Best. Pray for their Speedy Recovery. Stay Safe Chaps Happy Landings ...*
*




*

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## Sine Nomine

Windjammer said:


> *Lets Hear For Our Brave Pilots, Who Had Zero Fear Of Death. They Ejected After Ensuring The Safety Of Residents Of Bhagtanwala. This Courage & Strength Make Our Pilots Best Of The Best. Pray for their Speedy Recovery. Stay Safe Chaps Happy Landings ...
> 
> View attachment 419017
> *


May Almighty Bless.
Get will soon son of Motherland.
But Alas probably,his flying career has been ended.

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## Salza

fatman17 said:


> One PAF official, identified as Flight Lieutenant Bilal, suffered a leg fracture as a result of the incident.



For a greater good perspective, it is actually good to loose a very accident prone and vulnerable plane today as long as pilot is safe and can recover from his injury to fly again.

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## Windjammer

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> May Almighty Bless.
> Get will soon son of Motherland.
> But Alas probably,his flying career has been ended.


Really all depends on the nature of the injury, remember the legendary Cecil Choudhary had to eject from his stricken F-86 during 1971 war and went on to fly Ten more missions after that.
Today's ejection seats are much more intelligent compared to those fitted some 50 years earlier.

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## Salza

We need to expedite in our JF17 project, get them built on emergency basis. These F7s and Mirages are flying coffins and yes there should be a panic in PAF. We are flying F16s all the time from air shows to day to day operations,hardly there is a F16 crash in recent years. Its no rocket science to figure out the issue.

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## Sine Nomine

Windjammer said:


> Really all depends on the nature of the injury, remember the legendary Cecil Choudhary had to eject from his stricken F-86 during 1971 war and went on to fly Ten more missions after that.
> Today's ejection seats are much more intelligent compared to those fitted some 50 years earlier.


I am also pointing at injury,not his professional conduct.

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## Vortex

Insha'Allah he will recover quickly.
@Windjammer 
Please remove his pic, i feel some kind of disrespect when someone's pic is posted in this situation, and maybe without his agreement.

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## CriticalThought

Hodor said:


> Yup,lower the altitude,faster the speed appears and so is the chance of collision.
> Pilots just focus on the HUD while flying at AGL though a friend of mine took selfie while flying very low xD
> View attachment 418091



It's OK if the speed is also manageable.

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## Major Sam

PAF should need to do some serious work. Its getting way worst. They need to wake up. 






May ALLAH make the pilot healthy again.

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## messiach

These happen sometimes in clusters. No need to panic. Can someone compare PLAAF F7MG attrition record with PG.

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## niaz

F-7 /Mig-21 is a well-designed and well-constructed aircraft. More than 11,000 Mig-21’s and about 2,400 J-7/F-7 have been produced with thousands still flying with the numerous air forces of the world. Hence nothing wrong with the aircraft itself. However no air force can afford to have the fighters falling out of the sky so often. Unless it was due to a natural phenomenon such as bird strike; aircraft accident must be either due to pilot error or because of the equipment failure.

If one does not train hard enough, in case of war, one is likely to be shot out of the sky by the enemy pilots; hence no air force can afford to cut corners on training. Therefore, air combat training is inherently risky as you simulate near combat conditions. All one can do is to try to maintain highest possible maintenance standard and ensure that pilots are physically and mentally fit.

Even though it is inconceivable that PAF would allow any fighter to take off if was not certified ‘Airworthy’; PAF needs to up the quality of aircraft maintenance and may be the pilot’s health checks as well.

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## blinder

Luckily the pilot survived.

I noted the 'Saffron Bandit' badge, was the mishap during this exercise or does it refer to a previous one?

Also, I thought only had F-7P with the CCS are based at Mushaf AB?

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## Windjammer

blinder said:


> Luckily the pilot survived.
> 
> I noted the 'Saffron Bandit' badge, was the mishap during this exercise or does it refer to a previous one?
> 
> Also, I thought only had F-7P with the CCS are based at Mushaf AB?


The aircraft was flying from PAF Base Samungli to PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha.
The badge must be from a previous exercise.


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## Shane

Windjammer said:


> *Lets Hear For Our Brave Pilots, Who Had Zero Fear Of Death. They Ejected After Ensuring The Safety Of Residents Of Bhagtanwala. This Courage & Strength Make Our Pilots Best Of The Best. Pray for their Speedy Recovery. Stay Safe Chaps Happy Landings ...
> 
> View attachment 419017
> *


Salute to the brave pilots and may they recover miraculously quickly and completely, Aameen in sha Allah.

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## Talon

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> 2nd crash in one month of same machine,time to withdraw them in Emergency and induct thunders.


previous one was pilot error...please dont be a part of propaganda against PAF



Windjammer said:


> The aircraft was flying from PAF Base Samungli to PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha.
> The badge must be from a previous exercise.
> 
> View attachment 419042


No it wasnt from a previous exercise..



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> May Almighty Bless.
> Get will soon son of Motherland.
> But Alas probably,his flying career has been ended.


A PAF viper pilot used to fly with a prosthetic leg...



blinder said:


> Luckily the pilot survived.
> 
> I noted the 'Saffron Bandit' badge, was the mishap during this exercise or does it refer to a previous one?
> 
> Also, I thought only had F-7P with the CCS are based at Mushaf AB?


The jet was assigned to No 17 Sqn Tigers and was deployed at Mushaf for exercise..

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> previous one was pilot error...please dont be a part of propaganda against PAF
> 
> 
> No it wasnt from a previous exercise..
> 
> 
> A PAF viper pilot used to fly with a prosthetic leg...
> 
> 
> The jet was assigned to No 17 Sqn Tigers and was deployed at Mushaf for exercise..



I wasn't aware of any exercise currently under progress....however i understand the aircraft was flying in from Samungli.

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> I wasn't aware of any exercise currently under progress....however i understand the aircraft was flying in from Samungli.


Its not necessary to announce every exercise to the public..

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## flameboard

pilot ejected that's good news

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## khanasifm

Ejection by itself is a violent experience with forces exceeding normal Gs

http://www.ejectionsite.com/ejectfaq.htm#5

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## ziaulislam

Need a diplomatic push to get the f16 used ones or refurbished ones. 
Thunder block 3 is not happening before 2019 per PAF chief so i doubt the PG are going to go before 2025. Even 2025 we may have the mirage 3/5 flying

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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> previous one was pilot error...please dont be a part of propaganda against PAF
> 
> 
> No it wasnt from a previous exercise..
> 
> 
> *A PAF viper pilot used to fly with a prosthetic leg...*
> 
> 
> The jet was assigned to No 17 Sqn Tigers and was deployed at Mushaf for exercise..


He was visiting a Viper squadron, he was not an operational pilot on F-16s nor did he train on them. Previous to that he was the 2nd last OC of No.14 Squadron when it was an F-6 OCU.

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> Its not necessary to announce every exercise to the public..


Considering these are held at greater frequency for the past decade than previous years some surpirse to public can be expected- the 90's were pretty barren times

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## Talon

Knuckles said:


> He was visiting a Viper squadron, he was not an operational pilot on F-16s nor did he train on them. Previous to that he was the 2nd last OC of No.14 Squadron when it was an F-6 OCU.


Still,the point is he was operational irrespective of the aircraft...U have better knowledge than me especially about vipers so i wont argue with u..



Oscar said:


> Considering these are held at greater frequency for the past decade than previous years some surpirse to public can be expected- the 90's were pretty barren times


Sir jee common people cant differentiate b/w solo turk and saudi hawks so what do they have to do with PAF's Business..?

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> Still,the point is he was operational irrespective of the aircraft...U have better knowledge than me especially about vipers so i wont argue with u..
> 
> 
> Sir jee common people cant differentiate b/w solo turk and saudi hawks so what do they have to do with PAF's Business..?


We have 220 million people out of which I estimate 50 million consider themselves either by some madressa time, online course or "self certification" as experts in Islam & theology; and you expect people to not comment on PAF business?

PAF is answerable to the people as it is a taxpayer state institution. Just as the USAF briefs congress on whatever they ask and when they ask for it.

The press is informed with the maximum public declared knowledge possible, enthusiastic individuals given access to bases and whatever is not operational security information. 
However, a process and procedure is following if any citizen has a question or objection to how the USAF operates- questions on safety and security etc and so on.

It is imperative that accountability be maintained but at the same time- ill informed meandering be ignored or shut down

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## Talon

Oscar said:


> We have 220 million people out of which I estimate 50 million consider themselves either by some madressa time, online course or "self certification" as experts in Islam & theology; and you expect people to not comment on PAF business?
> 
> PAF is answerable to the people as it is a taxpayer state institution. Just as the USAF briefs congress on whatever they ask and when they ask for it.
> 
> The press is informed with the maximum public declared knowledge possible, enthusiastic individuals given access to bases and whatever is not operational security information.
> However, a process and procedure is following if any citizen has a question or objection to how the USAF operates- questions on safety and security etc and so on.
> 
> It is imperative that accountability be maintained but at the same time- ill informed meandering be ignored or shut down


I was talking about COMMON PEOPLE and not those EXPERTS..
Common people in Pakistan have a lot of other things to worry about than which exercise is being conducted by AF.
PAF isnt USAF...u know well what power armed forces in Pakistan have.(this is totally another topic so i wont go in detail)
Pakistan is a victim of Terrorism so no chance of access to PAF bases/installations(unless u have any relative there)so we cant compare us with USA in this case either.In USA u can easily do SPOTTING around airbases/airports,try that in Pakistan and u'll end up with some serious POCH GOOCH..


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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> I was talking about COMMON PEOPLE and not those EXPERTS..
> Common people in Pakistan have a lot of other things to worry about than which exercise is being conducted by AF.
> PAF isnt USAF...u know well what power armed forces in Pakistan have.(this is totally another topic so i wont go in detail)
> Pakistan is a victim of Terrorism so no chance of access to PAF bases/installations(unless u have any relative there)so we cant compare us with USA in this case either.In USA u can easily do SPOTTING around airbases/airports,try that in Pakistan and u'll end up with some serious POCH GOOCH..


You did not get the point- regardless of access or not access, common people in Pakistan have a tendency to consider themselves expert on a subject after watching on youtube video; and while windy here is right at being surprised as he follows very closely and knows stuff - many would come up with stupid questions regarding it.


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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Still,the point is he was operational irrespective of the aircraft...U have better knowledge than me especially about vipers so i wont argue with u..


No argument at all sir. And no, he was not operational on any aircraft at the time. He was in the phase of slowly leaving the air force. His incident happened in the 1980s when sitting as a passenger in a Cessna and the aircraft crashed, back then he was the OC of No.14 Squadron.


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## Hassan Guy

All f-7s need to be equipped with parachutes

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## Saif-ud-Din Qutuz

Government is busy looting the tax-payer money. They don't want to spend money to get latest fighter/attack jets or setup an indigenous programs. LPC Nooraya


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> You did not get the point- regardless of access or not access, common people in Pakistan have a tendency to consider themselves expert on a subject after watching on youtube video; and while windy here is right at being surprised as he follows very closely and knows stuff - many would come up with stupid questions regarding it.


Ironically when some sources report that PAF pilots spoilt the day for some Typhoons with some associated people assuming they belonged to a a certain Gora Sahib's air arm, others having no clues whatsoever, some of us common folks were able to find out that it wasn't actually pronto for the Vespa warriors.... but what the hell, we civilians can't tell the difference between dive and toss bombing.


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## ziaulislam

so how many air crafts have crashed in last 10 years

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Ironically when some sources report that PAF pilots spoilt the day for some Typhoons with some associated people assuming they belonged to a a certain Gora Sahib's air arm, others having no clues whatsoever, some of us common folks were able to find out that it wasn't actually pronto for the Vespa warriors.... but what the hell, we civilians can't tell the difference between dive and toss bombing.


Alan warnes has nothing to do with aviation but his passion got him where he is, the difference is interest and effort- that is what some academy grads don't get, you may not have a commission or know exactly what happened to a particular jet when it crashed- but given the right amount of effort(emphasis on this) in searching for knowledge, you can make a good guestimate. 

If I can leave the gentleman we were discussed Surprised during my conversation with him, Im pretty sure you can guess the number of Flt lt and sqn ldrs ive left with gaping mouths.

But will I try to pretend the same with a investment banker? Nope, regardless of the news articles I may read; Ill be daft to pretend to be knowledgeable to him.

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## Thorough Pro

Why? did they all go to maintenance/checkup together? same person? parts from same batch?



messiach said:


> These happen sometimes in clusters. No need to panic. Can someone compare PLAAF F7MG attrition record with PG.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

I remember when you pakistani kids were bashing indian pilots on their crashes---.

Pay back is a bit-ch---ain't it.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I remember when you pakistani kids were bashing indian pilots on their crashes---.
> 
> Pay back is a bit-ch---ain't it.


Agreed. In this profession it isn't the fact that it is dangerous, but it becomes dangerous as it is very unforgiving.

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## hacker J

i guess its not just the indian mig21, or bisons pak migs/f-7 also are in dire need of replacement. But then the question is both paf and iaf fly other planes like jaguars and mirages in greater numbers, and they have lower crash rate why?
Not sure but i have some theories, request any senior member to validate them 
1) These aircrafts are old and less advance hence are given lower importance in maintanance, storage of planes which is resulting in failiurs
2) Because pilots are flying more advance aircrafts they try to take these machines beyond what they are capable of enduring(both manuvering, equipments) hence causes crashes, ground collision, disorientation
3) Pilots treat these planes as old toys, old bikes and u know what we do with old machines. We try to rip them apart just for fun(ripping means doing unnecessary dragging, climbing, g forces etc).
4) Some thing is wrong in the original engines of these aircrafts which is just coming up with time (although no reports for this).
@Oscar @Windjammer


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## DarX

hacker J said:


> i guess its not just the indian mig21, or bisons pak migs/f-7 also are in dire need of replacement. But then the question is both paf and iaf fly other planes like jaguars and mirages in greater numbers, and they have lower crash rate why?
> Not sure but i have some theories, request any senior member to validate them
> 1) These aircrafts are old and less advance hence are given lower importance in maintanance, storage of planes which is resulting in failiurs
> 2) Because pilots are flying more advance aircrafts they try to take these machines beyond what they are capable of enduring(both manuvering, equipments) hence causes crashes, ground collision, disorientation
> 3) Pilots treat these planes as old toys, old bikes and u know what we do with old machines. We try to rip them apart just for fun(ripping means doing unnecessary dragging, climbing, g forces etc).
> 4) Some thing is wrong in the original engines of these aircrafts which is just coming up with time (although no reports for this).
> @Oscar @Windjammer



I think it has more to do with the quality of manufacturing in the Chinese F-7 jets. They were inducted only recently in 2002 but still face a lot of technical issues.



Saif-ud-Din Qutuz said:


> Government is busy looting the tax-payer money. They don't want to spend money to get latest fighter/attack jets or setup an indigenous programs. LPC Nooraya



Keep your naive prejudices to yourself. The defense budget is not in the control of any civilian government and if you think Taliban Khan will be any different, you are mistaken.

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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I remember when you pakistani kids were bashing indian pilots on their crashes---.
> 
> Pay back is a bit-ch---ain't it.


Although there shouldn't be any excuse for PAF's crashes but at the same time it's unfair to compare with say IAF.
Firstly majority of IAF's front line strength consists of twin engine jets, which gives you that extra safety besides, unlike the PAF, which has been involved in combat missions for a decade, the IAF hasn't fired in anger since the Kargil conflict....the PAF operations, albeit of low intensity still translates into extra sorties than peacetime flying.


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## khanasifm

Off the topic discussion does not add anything stick to the topic and do not being a b c etc

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## Windjammer

Contrary to reports by some sources, the PAF aircraft involved in the crash was a single seat F-7PG serial # 01-808 from No.17 Sqn.
Pilots was Flt Lt Bilal who safely bailed out.


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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> Although there shouldn't be any excuse for PAF's crashes but at the same time it's unfair to compare with say IAF.
> Firstly majority of IAF's front line strength consists of twin engine jets, which gives you that extra safety besides, unlike the PAF, which has been involved in combat missions for a decade, the IAF hasn't fired in anger since the Kargil conflict....the PAF operations, albeit of low intensity still translates into extra sorties than peacetime flying.



Hi,

You are judged by what you operate and that is what you fight with---.

Incompetence can be fixed thru clearer and well defined instructions---rigorous training and implementing stricter rules.

But arrogance and strutting around---that is a massive problem and it cannot be fixed just like that---and incidently---Paf is full of it---.

Bottomline---Paf has bigger problems in correcting the issue than the Iaf.



khanasifm said:


> Off the topic discussion does not add anything stick to the topic and do not being a b c etc



Hi,

Good morning---.

When you write an original article of your own on this board just for ONCE---maybe then you can comment like that.

In the past years---I have seen nothing original from you---nothing---zilch---nada---not even a worthless article about the subject matter---.

It is all copy paste or stolen material from other posters.

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## messiach

No.


Thorough Pro said:


> did they all go to maintenance/checkup together? same person? parts from same batch?



PIA has been eaten up by 'parasites' , its literally disgusting & so when our group opted out via an intermediary organisation to PAF, the first year was really depressing. Chengdu happened to be a fresh breather for our group and the most glaringly notable difference over the next 5 yrs was the far greater transparency and consequent professionalism matching international standards.

Transparency and Audit, thats what is needed. Rest will fall back.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are judged by what you operate and that is what you fight with---.
> 
> Incompetence can be fixed thru clearer and well defined instructions---rigorous training and implementing stricter rules.
> 
> But arrogance and strutting around---that is a massive problem and it cannot be fixed just like that---and incidently---Paf is full of it---.
> 
> Bottomline---Paf has bigger problems in correcting the issue than the Iaf.

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## Saif-ud-Din Qutuz

DarX said:


> Keep your naive prejudices to yourself. The defense budget is not in the control of any civilian government and if you think Taliban Khan will be any different, you are mistaken.


Wow we've another expert defending baboon league. How naive you're , I can get that by the fact that you support Noora. What have you done? A PHD degree and some 30 years experience in the defense ministry as well as industry?


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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> *well defined instructions---rigorous training and implementing stricter rules*.


U surely havent interacted with any PAF person otherwise u wouldn't be saying this..PAF training is one of the toughest..I know a pilot who had sleep disorders and couldnt sleep at night just bcuz of pressure he had to face during his training..IPs treat their students the way they like,even use vulgar language just to bring them under pressure so that they dont pee their pants when facing the real enemy and make gud decisions ..Fail 3 consecutive missions and u are out of fighter flying...from a batch of 70 cadets avg 20 pilots pass through all the training before becoming OPs...
Talk about rules? If the plane's G limit is 6 and u take it to 6.2 u'll be put under inquiry..etc etc


----------



## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> When you write an original article of your own on this board just for ONCE---maybe then you can comment like that.
> 
> In the past years---I have seen nothing original from you---nothing---zilch---nada---not even a worthless article about the subject matter---.
> 
> It is all copy paste or stolen material from other posters.



It is incredibly arrogant of you to say this, particularly when @khanasifm is actually right.

Over the years he has posted a lot and quality of his posts is better than many here. It does not look good to call into question quality of his posts when you are yourself a one-trick-pony who keeps harping on what did or did not happen 30 years ago.



Saif-ud-Din Qutuz said:


> Wow we've another expert defending baboon league. How naive you're , I can get that by the fact that you support Noora. What have you done? A PHD degree and some 30 years experience in the defense ministry as well as industry?


Keep political discussions out of this thread. If you must discuss politics, then go to politics section.

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> It is incredibly arrogant of you to say this, particularly when @khanasifm is actually right.
> 
> Over the years he has posted a lot and quality of his posts is better than many here. It does not look good to call into question quality of his posts when you are yourself a one-trick-pony who keeps harping on what did or did not happen 30 years ago.



Hi,

Men can answer their critics and not have some ----h answer on their behalf---.

You may be a 'pony' I am just a horse---.

And what have you put up on this board that is worth something---your own---and some stolen copy and paste---.



Hodor said:


> U surely havent interacted with any PAF person otherwise u wouldn't be saying this..PAF training is one of the toughest..I know a pilot who had sleep disorders and couldnt sleep at night just bcuz of pressure he had to face during his training..IPs treat their students the way they like,even use vulgar language just to bring them under pressure so that they dont pee their pants when facing the real enemy and make gud decisions ..Fail 3 consecutive missions and u are out of fighter flying...from a batch of 70 cadets avg 20 pilots pass through all the training before becoming OPs...
> Talk about rules? If the plane's G limit is 6 and u take it to 6.2 u'll be put under inquiry..etc etc



Hi,

When you become a professional---work for a mega corporations---you don't have to interact with an organization to see what is happening---.

What shows on the surface---is the evidence of the ROT that is setting in.

Now---how deep the ROT is---is a different story---for that you have to look inside of the structure---.

But the outside indications are that the PAF is begining to come apart at the seams---.

It may recover and recoup---we will see---but the vast technology gap that it has faced is for sure problematic.



messiach said:


> Transparency and Audit, thats what is needed. Rest will fall back.



Hi,

Indeed---there lies the solution.


----------



## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Men can answer their critics and not have some ----h answer on their behalf---.
> 
> You may be a 'pony' I am just a horse---.
> 
> And what have you put up on this board that is worth something---your own---and some stolen copy and paste---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> When you become a professional---work for a mega corporations---you don't have to interact with an organization to see what is happening---.
> 
> What shows on the surface---is the evidence of the ROT that is setting in.
> 
> Now---how deep the ROT is---is a different story---for that you have to look inside of the structure---.
> 
> But the outside indications are that the PAF is begining to come apart at the seams---.
> 
> It may recover and recoup---we will see---but the vast technology gap that it has faced is for sure problematic.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Indeed---there lies the solution.


Now u are trying to play the game of words...this aint gonna help u
See,most of the NON-MUSLIM world see ISLAM and MUSLIMS as terrorists...and u and I know this is not the case so yeah MR KHAN *Dont judge a book by its cover*..if *YOU* think that upper command of PAF are traitors and incompetent people then u cant say that the whole organisation is incompetent and treacherous..

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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> Now u are trying to play the game of words...this aint gonna help u
> See,most of the NON-MUSLIM world see ISLAM and MUSLIMS as terrorists...and u and I know this is not the case so yeah MR KHAN *Dont judge a book by its cover*..if *YOU* think that upper command of PAF are traitors and incompetent people then u cant say that the whole organisation is incompetent and treacherous..



Hi,

That is not a very intelligent answer---.

Targeting muslim nations as terrs---is a tactical and strategic game plan---it is meant to sabotage their integrity and identity---.

But looking at a business---a corporation---and organization and getting a reflection back has nothing to do with what you stated---seems like you are too young to understand that difference---and do not have a very good comprehension and grasp of the issue at hand.

My recommendations would be to post your age and profession so that I can better understand where you are coming from and answer accordingly---.


----------



## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I remember when you pakistani kids were bashing indian pilots on their crashes---.
> 
> Pay back is a bit-ch---ain't it.


India has mostly groubded their migs and now our migs are reaching the 2000 hrs mark

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## ziaulislam

hacker J said:


> i guess its not just the indian mig21, or bisons pak migs/f-7 also are in dire need of replacement. But then the question is both paf and iaf fly other planes like jaguars and mirages in greater numbers, and they have lower crash rate why?
> Not sure but i have some theories, request any senior member to validate them
> 1) These aircrafts are old and less advance hence are given lower importance in maintanance, storage of planes which is resulting in failiurs
> 2) Because pilots are flying more advance aircrafts they try to take these machines beyond what they are capable of enduring(both manuvering, equipments) hence causes crashes, ground collision, disorientation
> 3) Pilots treat these planes as old toys, old bikes and u know what we do with old machines. We try to rip them apart just for fun(ripping means doing unnecessary dragging, climbing, g forces etc).
> 4) Some thing is wrong in the original engines of these aircrafts which is just coming up with time (although no reports for this).
> @Oscar @Windjammer


Well our migs and mirages both are crashing. India jauguars are much safer twin engines and have different role while the others have been grounded 
Pakistan simply needs urgently 3-4 sq


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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> India has mostly groubded their migs and now our migs are reaching the 2000 hrs mark



Hi,

Thanks you for your post---. 

I also think that the stress of not having a potent aircraft in right numbers may also be an issue---where the pilots may want to outshine---and excel on limited resources---pushing the machines to their limits which may result in a catastrophe.

I mean to say---the pilots still have to do a job---and expecting them to take on far superior equipment just because they are pakistanis and are in the Paf is a little too much to ask---.

That is where accidents happen and inherent problems start to pop up---slowly at first---and then at a rapid pace---because the old machine can only take so much---and the enthusiasm of the pilot is limitless---.

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Men can answer their critics and not have some ----h answer on their behalf---.
> 
> You may be a 'pony' I am just a horse---.
> 
> And what have you put up on this board that is worth something---your own---and some stolen copy and paste---.



Unlike you I never pretended to be an expert. I am an engineer with an interest in Pakistan's armed forces and I do not try to pass myself off as an expert. Like most here I come to learn. As for 'stolen' copy paste, show me one post of mine that was so. Just the fact that you can say this about two long-time posters on this forum says a lot about who you are.

When you are being un-civil, you would be taken to task. I also know that you never take any criticism seriously and keep repeating same stories over and over and over again. So, I used some choice words for you just so that younger posters may know not to emulate your manners.

Again, this is a PAF Aircraft crashes thread, not Mastan-Khan-goes-berserk thread. Keep it civil please.


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## Saif-ud-Din Qutuz

Chak Bamu said:


> Keep political discussions out of this thread. If you must discuss politics, then go to politics section.


Supi sahb, why can't you say this to the one I was replying to? Are you scared of him?


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## hacker J

ziaulislam said:


> Well our migs and mirages both are crashing. India jauguars are much safer twin engines and have different role while the others have been grounded
> Pakistan simply needs urgently 3-4 sq


Yep but still mirages have had a better crash rate if you see crash per 1000 sorties. And jaguars and mirages have kind of similar roles of ground attack air support thats what is rose upgrade is about , standoff weapons amd nuclear attack. Although jaguars have addition role of deep penitration which is served by f16 in paf.


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## Gurjot.S

What is the general perception when migs crash in pakistan ? Here in india, we laugh when we loose migs(if pilots are safe). Atleast new will replace that old junk.


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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> Unlike you I never pretended to be an expert. I am an engineer with an interest in Pakistan's armed forces and I do not try to pass myself off as an expert. Like most here I come to learn. As for 'stolen' copy paste, show me one post of mine that was so. Just the fact that you can say this about two long-time posters on this forum says a lot about who you are.
> 
> When you are being un-civil, you would be taken to task. I also know that you never take any criticism seriously and keep repeating same stories over and over and over again. So, I used some choice words for you just so that younger posters may know not to emulate your manners.
> 
> Again, this is a PAF Aircraft crashes thread, not Mastan-Khan-goes-berserk thread. Keep it civil please.



Hi,

Welcome back----criticism has to have some fundamental truth to it to be taken seriously---it has to have some substance of value---it has to have a direction---a resource and a re-course---which most of you pakistani posters do not have.

You want to take me to task---ok---then talk strategy and planning---show me some substance---I am all ears.

The second part of criticism is---what kind of " poison " is there behind the criticism---is it like---fck---I don't like your face---so I hate you for that---i don't like your position---I am your enemy for that reason---or I just simply dislike you---.

If you don't pretend to be and expert---it is your choice---I pretend to be one either and neither do I claim to---. I am just stating things as I see them---.

On the primary issue the stand that I have taken for the last 10 + years---I have yet to be proved wrong---.



Windjammer said:


> Contrary to reports by some sources, the PAF aircraft involved in the crash was a single seat F-7PG serial # 01-808 from No.17 Sqn.
> Pilots was Flt Lt Bilal who safely bailed out.



Hi,

This thing looks filthy---full of dirt---. Is that the new radar absorbant scheme.


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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This thing looks filthy---full of dirt---. Is that the new radar absorbant scheme.


Ever heard of the man who had every window replaced in the house only to realise afterwards that the crack was actually in his reading glasses....I was once in Pakistan and Islamabad turned into Mars for about 15 minutes, no doubt Samungli surrounded by desserts also faces such show of nature.


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## messiach

@MastanKhan PAF has still managed well. 

AVM S Nawaz and Abdul Razaq (i do'nt know how many here know them!) they are considered the patriarchs behind local fighter jet development program. Right men at the right time. We have capable leadership but the time is ripe for transparency in professional organisations.

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## mikaal hassan

Windjammer said:


> Although there shouldn't be any excuse for PAF's crashes but at the same time it's unfair to compare with say IAF.
> Firstly majority of IAF's front line strength consists of twin engine jets, which gives you that extra safety besides, unlike the PAF, which has been involved in combat missions for a decade, the IAF hasn't fired in anger since the Kargil conflict....the PAF operations, albeit of low intensity still translates into extra sorties than peacetime flying.


Sir for a change we have to admit where PAf is wrong instead of trying to cover up weakness bad decisions have been made by PAf from last 15 years costing us time and presious life and making us weak in front of our enemy ....they didn't like j10 didn't had the balls to negotiate a proper deal with France for rafale and what's the end result you end up with nothing ....

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## ziaulislam

Gurjot.S said:


> What is the general perception when migs crash in pakistan ? Here in india, we laugh when we loose migs(if pilots are safe). Atleast new will replace that old junk.



migs/f7 were due to retire by 2015 under mid 2000 plan when we are getting f-16s/jf-17 combo(originally plan was for 55 f-16s) than extended to 2020, the fact is we only have 1 sq of f-7s which will be replaced by this year. by JF-17 

after wards we will be left with 3 f-7 PG sq PGs were inducted as stop gap in 2002 and will be replaced by 2020.
had we havent had unfortunate incidence of f-16s held on and off, the F-7s would have retired by 2015 instead of this year, while PG would have retired by now instead of aim for 2020
so we are almost done with PG too

than the 2-3 squadrons of mirages will be left that would be retired by 2025
some believe that as F-7PG are relatively new aircrafts(though their life is almost up) they might be retired after mirages but i think mirages are going to stay as we have a good setup for them

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> @MastanKhan PAF has still managed well.
> 
> AVM S Nawaz and Abdul Razaq (i do'nt know how many here know them!) they are considered the patriarchs behind local fighter jet development program. Right men at the right time. We have capable leadership but the time is ripe for transparency in professional organisations.



Hi,

Thank you for your post.

Indeed if it was not for the unsung heroes---Paf was done and dusted. The unsung heroes here are the chinese.

The chinese made sure that the program would not go down the drain---even though the Paf did its best that it did---( the French avionics scenario )---the size of the aircraft---a dedicated IRST less aircraft---a very low profile aircraft ( ground clearance )---a lack of a dual seater from the begining---.

Any how---

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## DarX

Gurjot.S said:


> What is the general perception when migs crash in pakistan ? Here in india, we laugh when we loose migs(if pilots are safe). Atleast new will replace that old junk.



If there is any sort of a crash, whether if the plane is new or old, it is considered extremely questionable and people do get very upset.



Saif-ud-Din Qutuz said:


> Wow we've another expert defending baboon league. How naive you're , I can get that by the fact that you support Noora. What have you done? A PHD degree and some 30 years experience in the defense ministry as well as industry?



Oh so we have a brainwashed fan boy jumping out stinking. Your ignorance can be seen by your support for Jhoota Khan. The dominance of the army and its control of the defense budget is neither a secret nor does it require any expert knowledge to infer. But your lack of intelligence is understandable considering your choice of leaders.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post.
> 
> Indeed if it was not for the unsung heroes---Paf was done and dusted. The unsung heroes here are the chinese.
> 
> The chinese made sure that the program would not go down the drain---even though the Paf did its best that it did---( the French avionics scenario )---the size of the aircraft---a dedicated IRST less aircraft---a very low profile aircraft ( ground clearance )---a lack of a dual seater from the begining---.
> 
> Any how---


The Chinese did their fair done of dusting when they sold the A-5s to PAF. PAF has had their share of mistakes, but that doesn't make them a terrible organisation as a whole. There is always room for improvement, BUT criticism is something that must be accepted in areas where they remain lax.

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## Talon

Oscar said:


> You did not get the point- regardless of access or not access, common people in Pakistan have a tendency to consider themselves expert on a subject after watching on youtube video; and while *windy here is right at being surprised as he follows very closely and knows stuff* - many would come up with stupid questions regarding it.



https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/an-unsung-hero.504731/

Now see this link,it was posted by ur knowledgeable windy and I believed this stuff to be true and couple of days ago i talked about this pilot in this same thread and @Knuckles quoted me wrong and told me MHK Dotani wasnt even operational on any aircraft after he lost his leg and I believe @Knuckles to be the muost authentiic guy here..and this is not the only case,i hv seen windy few more times posting false/unconfirmed content.

I am not saying i know more than windy or he doesnt know stuff etc etc i am just saying anyone can make mistakes and cant know everything...I respect all seniors here including windy so dont take me wrong.
PEACE..!!!

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/an-unsung-hero.504731/
> 
> Now see this link,it was posted by ur knowledgeable windy and I believed this stuff to be true and couple of days ago i talked about this pilot in this same thread and @Knuckles quoted me wrong and told me MHK Dotani wasnt even operational on any aircraft after he lost his leg and I believe @Knuckles to be the muost authentiic guy here..and this is not the only case,i hv seen windy few more times posting false/unconfirmed content.
> 
> I am not saying i know more than windy or he doesnt know stuff etc etc i am just saying anyone can make mistakes and cant know everything...I respect all seniors here including windy so dont take me wrong.
> PEACE..!!!


Oh bhai, we aren't referring to windy or you- but rather the "Pakistan must buy 200 su-35" variety

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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is not a very intelligent answer---.
> 
> Targeting muslim nations as terrs---is a tactical and strategic game plan---it is meant to sabotage their integrity and identity---.
> 
> But looking at a business---a corporation---and organization and getting a reflection back has nothing to do with what you stated---seems like you are too young to understand that difference---and do not have a very good comprehension and grasp of the issue at hand.
> 
> *My recommendations would be to post your age and profession so that I can better understand where you are coming from and answer accordingly*---.



This is hilarious,so u are saying u know stuff in each and every field and know how to interact with every age group..DAMN..
I think its better not to argue with a person who thinks he's the all mighty EXPERT and all others are just kids..
U talked about PAF training to be incompetent and i gave u many examples of how actually tough it is..so as i said earlier now u are trying to play the game of words and i aint going to be a part of that so lets end it here...



Oscar said:


> Oh bhai, we aren't referring to windy or you- but rather the "Pakistan must buy 200 su-35" variety


No,we werent discussing this..anyways we cant buy SU35s they are too costly for us..including the operational costs

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/an-unsung-hero.504731/
> 
> Now see this link,it was posted by ur knowledgeable windy and I believed this stuff to be true and couple of days ago i talked about this pilot in this same thread and @Knuckles quoted me wrong and told me MHK Dotani wasnt even operational on any aircraft after he lost his leg and I believe @Knuckles to be the muost authentiic guy here..and this is not the only case,i hv seen windy few more times posting false/unconfirmed content.
> 
> I am not saying i know more than windy or he doesnt know stuff etc etc i am just saying anyone can make mistakes and cant know everything...I respect all seniors here including windy so dont take me wrong.
> PEACE..!!!


Dude, although i have rich military background but none of my relatives served in the PAF, however i have a few contacts in the PAF and much of the material like the article on A/C Dotani, i receive from various other sources and simply share it here without too much nit picking. I never ever claimed to be the knowledgeable one and many times i stood corrected....hell i'm not here to win any medals, i take interest in the PAF thus follow it.
As for MK Dotani Sahib, i have learned that after his accident he was even patrolling the Western border when former US President as an envoy, was visiting the area after soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Dude, although i have rich military background but none of my relatives served in the PAF, however i have a few contacts in the PAF and much of the material like the article on A/C Dotani, i receive from various other sources and simply share it here without too much nit picking. I never ever claimed to be the knowledgeable one and many times i stood corrected....hell i'm not here to win any medals, i take interest in the PAF thus follow it.
> As for MK Dotani Sahib, i have learned that after his accident he was even patrolling the Western border when former US President as an envoy, was visiting the area after soviet invasion of Afghanistan.


Chill out bro..i never said everything u post is wrong and i respect ur interest in the AF.
PEACE!


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## doppelgängerr

MastanKhan said:


> The chinese made sure that the program would not go down the drain-


And that is why they refuses to Induct JFT and because of that Pakistan getting JFT on higher prices even what they planing to sell.


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## 帅的一匹

F7 is too old, need to be phased out.

Said PAF will accelerate the production numbers of JF17 to 36 units per year.



Mankind's Angel said:


> And that is why they refuses to Induct JFT and because of that Pakistan getting JFT on higher prices even what they planing to sell.


Because PLAAF inducted J10, so they didn't go for JF17. JF17 is a tailored made fighter for PAF.

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## Blue Marlin

wanglaokan said:


> F7 is too old, need to be phased out.
> 
> Said PAF will accelerate the production numbers of JF17 to 36 units per year.
> 
> 
> Because PLAAF inducted J10, so they didn't go for JF17. JF17 is a tailored made fighter for PAF.


people should understand the reason china did not go for the jf-17 is because its small thats it. it has the same avionics as the j10 or near enough the same. in theory it would take very little training for pakistani pilots to be trained to use the j10. the pac and cac facilities each can pop out 24 jf-17 total 48 if the need arises.

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## Windjammer

@Hodor @Oscar @HRK 

Just received this picture of F/L Bilal recovering in hospital, have also learnt that his wife also serves in the PAF.

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## Chanakyaa

Windjammer said:


> @Hodor @Oscar @HRK
> 
> Just received this picture of F/L Bilal recovering in hospital, have also learnt that his wife also serves in the PAF.
> 
> View attachment 419542



Thank God He is Alive. Wish him a speedy recovery.
Brave Soul Indeed !

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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> This is hilarious,so u are saying u know stuff in each and every field and know how to interact with every age group..DAMN..
> I think its better not to argue with a person who thinks he's the all mighty EXPERT and all others are just kids..
> U talked about PAF training to be incompetent and i gave u many examples of how actually tough it is..so as i said earlier now u are trying to play the game of words and i aint going to be a part of that so lets end it here...



Hi,

Plz post your age and job---what you do---or if you still living at mommy and daddy's house so that we can see where you coming from.

I do not argue---you may chose to---it is your discretion.



Knuckles said:


> The Chinese did their fair done of dusting when they sold the A-5s to PAF. PAF has had their share of mistakes, but that doesn't make them a terrible organisation as a whole. There is always room for improvement, BUT criticism is something that must be accepted in areas where they remain lax.



Hi,

If ordinary people make mistakes under ordinary circumstances---the screwups are minuscule.

But when peacocks who are strutting around with full plume of their tail feathers on display make blunders---the problems become too severe with terrible consequences---.

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## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Plz post your age and job---what you do---or if you still living at mommy and daddy's house so that we can see where you coming from.
> 
> I do not argue---you may chose to---it is your discretion.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> If ordinary people make mistakes under ordinary circumstances---the screwups are minuscule.
> 
> But when peacocks who are strutting around with full plume of their tail feathers on display make blunders---the problems become too severe with terrible consequences---.


Sir,

As per part of training even a layman should confess that PAF is superior. On incompetence side one should fully oppose you as COAS is the chosen one ( best of best) along with other leadership. I have argued with you many times that PAF needs are there but they can't get what they like as financial matters are fully in Govt control. 
PAF is trying to be competitive with least availble resources as apart from F16 no foreign jet ordered so far despite requirements. If they ground Mirrage IIIs with F7s the PAF shell be left with limited number of jets.

I am fully agreed with you that for surface and naval roles Pak immediately requires one platform and it should be better to go for FC31 which considering fast pace of Chinese can be made available in next two to three years after required modifications. The old jets due to critical situation may be going for more sorties so start to crash frequently.

I am agreed that F7s and Mirage-IIIS required to be replaced as soon as possible however PAF should raise safety standards of F7PG with some upgrades if required to be used for next ten years or so, just like IAF doing with it's older jets.

Only point on which you are totally wrong is accusing PAF for hard choices which are not made by them solely. *It's Pakistan not USA.*

Further as Mr Mastan Khan has I suppose reached the retirement age so he should not wrestle with young guns.



hacker J said:


> Yep but still mirages have had a better crash rate if you see crash per 1000 sorties. And jaguars and mirages have kind of similar roles of ground attack air support thats what is rose upgrade is about , standoff weapons amd nuclear attack. Although jaguars have addition role of deep penitration which is served by f16 in paf.



In PAF so far deep penetration role is with Mirage III/V not with F16s, they are more or less for defensive roles and mainly for A to A combat as PAF can't/ shall not get permission to integrate long range ground based Ammo or Missiles.
The crash rate in case of PAF is high for Mirage-III and F7s as compared to F7PG or Mirage Vs.

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> No,we werent discussing this..anyways we cant buy SU35s they are too costly for us..including the operational costs


then we were on two different pages - no argument on the Su-35, never paid any serious attention to it.

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## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> Sir,
> 
> As per part of training even a layman should confess that PAF is superior. On incompetence side one should fully oppose you as COAS is the chosen one ( best of best) along with other leadership. I have argued with you many times that PAF needs are there but they can't get what they like as financial matters are fully in Govt control.
> 
> Only point on which you are totally wrong is accusing PAF for hard choices which are not made by them solely. *It's Pakistan not USA.*
> 
> Further as Mr Mastan Khan has I suppose reached the retirement age so he should not wrestle with young guns.
> .




Hi,

Your assessment is INCORRECT regarding financial matters---.

Financing / money was never an issue---strategy and planning were---. So---please don't bring up your financing issues at every turn---. You have no clue about the deceit and deception in the air headquarter.

Most of you young guns don't want to learn---I would still be going 100 miles an hour in my 80's when you would be sputtering around at 20 miles an hour in your 50's.

The enemy is also has superior training---and has superior aircraft---that would be a major major hurdle to come across



Hodor said:


> This is hilarious,so u are saying u know stuff in each and every field and know how to interact with every age group..DAMN..



Hi,

No----to what you wrote---. When I ask your age / profession---that is just a norm here---so that I know how to communicate with you and WHAT TO EXPECT IN RETURN.

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## mikaal hassan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your assessment is INCORRECT regarding financial matters---.
> 
> Financing / money was never an issue---strategy and planning were---. So---please don't bring up your financing issues at every turn---. You have no clue about the deceit and deception in the air headquarter.
> 
> Most of you young guns don't want to learn---I would still be going 100 miles an hour in my 80's when you would be sputtering around at 20 miles an hour in your 50's.
> 
> The enemy is also has superior training---and has superior aircraft---that would be a major major hurdle to come across
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> No----to what you wrote---. When I ask your age / profession---that is just a norm here---so that I know how to communicate with you and WHAT TO EXPECT IN RETURN.


Sir respectfully don't waste your energy on stupid people who won't admit where there beloved PAF is wrong ....you have presented these people with the right information with evedience but it's like taking to a deaf person they still think and will carry on thinking PAF is superior to IAF ....day dreamers

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## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your assessment is INCORRECT regarding financial matters---.
> 
> Financing / money was never an issue---strategy and planning were---. So---please don't bring up your financing issues at every turn---. You have no clue about the deceit and deception in the air headquarter.
> 
> Most of you young guns don't want to learn---I would still be going 100 miles an hour in my 80's when you would be sputtering around at 20 miles an hour in your 50's.
> 
> The enemy is also has superior training---and has superior aircraft---that would be a major major hurdle to come across
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> No----to what you wrote---. When I ask your age / profession---that is just a norm here---so that I know how to communicate with you and WHAT TO EXPECT IN RETURN.



Dear Sir, for speed certainly I am far behind u but on defense matters I also get some data. Please ask Mr Windjammer or any other retired PAF pro about incompetence issue as you are thousands of miles away and in Pak due to tight security u and me can't enter in Air HQ.

On speed issue certainly I drive every day Mehran which due to poor condition and bad roads can't accelrate more than 60 to 70KM at max.

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## messiach

+ Engineering team deputed from PAF & Allied.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> The unsung heroes here are the chinese.

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## Clairvoyant

Windjammer said:


> @Hodor @Oscar @HRK
> 
> Just received this picture of F/L Bilal recovering in hospital, have also learnt that his wife also serves in the PAF.
> 
> View attachment 419542


Not sure if posting someone's private picture on a public forum is the right idea,he had an engine failure right after off and ejected at low level.

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## Windjammer

Imadafridi said:


> Not sure if posting someone's private picture on a public forum is the right idea,he had an engine failure right after off and ejected at low level.


Well his pictures are all over the social networking sites.....i was under impression that he took off from Samungli and encountered emergency near Sargodha.

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## Clairvoyant

No he took off from sarghoda and crashed right after take off due to engine failure

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## messiach

Sad. Engineers working on CATIA and DELMIA adopted platforms at Chengdu & CASC take immense pride in their work. No doubt turbine development is the heart of aerospace engineering. Eventually responsibles will organize all resources under one head exclusively for turbine development in pakistan. No escape at all.



Imadafridi said:


> No he took off from sarghoda and crashed right after take off due to engine failure

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

messiach said:


> Sad. Engineers working on CATIA and DELMIA adopted platforms at Chengdu & CASC take immense pride in their work. No doubt turbine development is the heart of aerospace engineering. Eventually responsibles will organize all resources under one head exclusively for turbine development in pakistan. No escape at all.


Isn't gas turbine technology also relevant for energy and ship propulsion? There's no reason for this to be limited to a PAF matter, it ought to be a national technology program (akin to nuclear).

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## messiach

I for once and i think only once posed a similar Q to a serving AVM. The Q was, our state is practically & effectively a security state and so everything incld. R&D revolves around security concerns first and foremost & people/welfare comes somewhere down the list. So why & how is it that security projects like turbine R/D, electricity generation etc are nowhere on the list of security concerns in a security state surrounded by enemies. This logically should have been on the top of the list. There were at-least three serving AVM and at-least half a dozen retd. officers and one retd. ACM sitting on that table and NO one could answer this question. All i got was a raw smile.

It is NOT on the list of national priorities. No government military/civilian alike intentionally and I have said this time & again intent-fully neglected these national security concerns. The resultant fallout was fully predictable and well-known. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Isn't gas turbine technology also relevant for energy and ship propulsion? There's no reason for this to be limited to a PAF matter, it ought to be a national technology program (akin to nuclear).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

messiach said:


> I for once and i think only once posed a similar Q to a serving AVM. The Q was, our state is practically & effectively a security state and so everything incld. R&D revolves around security concerns first and foremost & people/welfare comes somewhere down the list. So why & how is it that security projects like turbine R/D, electricity generation etc are nowhere on the list of security concerns in a security state surrounded by enemies. This logically should have been on the top of the list. There were at-least three serving AVM and at-least half a dozen retd. officers and one retd. ACM sitting on that table and NO one could answer this question. All i got was a raw smile.
> 
> It is NOT on the list of national priorities. No government military/civilian alike intentionally and I have said this time & again intent-fully neglected these national security concerns. The resultant fallout was fully predictable and well-known.


Unbelievable (and aggravating).

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## Safriz



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## BATMAN

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Isn't gas turbine technology also relevant for energy and ship propulsion? There's no reason for this to be limited to a PAF matter, it ought to be a national technology program (akin to nuclear).



Its relevant for energy, but its low efficiency and high investment system.
It requires turbine blades to be regularly serviced and replaced.
Have limited place in the world of renewable energy world.
However there's nothing wrong to acquire service / operation skills, because their is still huge market in ME, which is occupied by Indians.
Taking share of jobs in ME market, would be a good starting point.

Propulsions these days (all new ships) is 100% electric.
As far a/c is concerned there's no alternate yet.





In Pakistan people need to learn about first aid.
Patient here needs some fresh air, and no one should try to move him. but all is going wrong, what possibly could go wrong.

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## messiach

OK. I am happy for someone to prove me incorrect. I wish someone would.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Unbelievable (and aggravating).



Wartsilla and some dutch-german energy consortium are actively involved with gas-turbines. Initial costs are high that's why it is prohibitive. Better alloys are changing scenes, ECR should improve in future from 30 to 60%. 



BATMAN said:


> Its relevant for energy, but its low efficiency and high investment system.
> It requires turbine blades to be regularly serviced and replaced.
> Have limited place in the world of renewable energy world.
> 
> 
> Propulsions these days (all new ships) is 100% electric.
> As far a/c is concerned there's no alternate yet.

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## BATMAN

messiach said:


> Wartsilla and some dutch-german energy consortium are actively involved with gas-turbines. Initial costs are high that's why it is prohibitive. Better alloys are changing scenes, ECR should improve in future from 30 to 60%.



Leader in turbine design and associated control systems is GE.
Wartsilla... as per my knowledge is into slow speed engines, based on crude oil combustion.
They do have a similar component called Turbo charger, which circulate the flue gases... essentially a turbine but they buy it form 2 external suppliers. Which is simply a complimenting component of power a system not the prime mover.
Better alloys in future may increase MTBSI, but future energy market is moving towards renewables.
There will be no new firms popping up in future.
As I agreed, fighter a/c engine still doesn't have an alternate.
If Pakistan need to go down that path, they need to find their way in to the ME market and take experience and than they will have manpower available, which can help in building turbine designs.

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## araz

messiach said:


> I for once and i think only once posed a similar Q to a serving AVM. The Q was, our state is practically & effectively a security state and so everything incld. R&D revolves around security concerns first and foremost & people/welfare comes somewhere down the list. So why & how is it that security projects like turbine R/D, electricity generation etc are nowhere on the list of security concerns in a security state surrounded by enemies. This logically should have been on the top of the list. There were at-least three serving AVM and at-least half a dozen retd. officers and one retd. ACM sitting on that table and NO one could answer this question. All i got was a raw smile.
> 
> It is NOT on the list of national priorities. No government military/civilian alike intentionally and I have said this time & again intent-fully neglected these national security concerns. The resultant fallout was fully predictable and well-known.


We have for far too long neglected far too many perojects as people have stomachs to fill from commissions from foreign vendors. You know how people are vined and dined and their "every need" looked after when they go abroad for negotiations. This is the sad reality of our acquisition cycles. We think more of ourselves than the country.
Araz

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## hacker J

wanglaokan said:


> F7 is too old, need to be phased out.
> 
> Said PAF will accelerate the production numbers of JF17 to 36 units per year.
> 
> 
> Because PLAAF inducted J10, so they didn't go for JF17. JF17 is a tailored made fighter for PAF.



Sire, no doubt jf17 is not at al a bad aircraft. Cheap healthy and customisable but it just doesn go down the throat that just because jf17 is tailor made for paf(remember cac doing all designing prototyping and testing) that plaaf is not even buying 1 squadrn because they have j 10, they also have pretty old j 7 too which can be replaced very cheaply wd jf 17 as j 10 is almost costing double. Plaaf can for stop gap measure use jf 17 for many reasons. Dun gv xample of f2 or any other aircraft they are based on original aircraft design of f 16 and us already deploys f 16 which are similarly capable. Which aircraft is jf 17 based on ???
I belive even if after block 3 if plaaf doesn buy jf 17 it wl seriously dent the image of jf 17 as well as doubts will remain is it really as capable as it is marketed.

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## war&peace

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Isn't gas turbine technology also relevant for energy and ship propulsion? There's no reason for this to be limited to a PAF matter, it ought to be a national technology program (akin to nuclear).



Yes, you are right, the gas turbines are used in multiple applications both civilian and military. Though the gas turbines used in aerospace applications are special but basic principle is the same i.e. Brayton Cycle. 

Govt of Pakistan should have initiated a national R&D project through a consortium of academia, private and military industries. It requires high precision manufacturing process and equipment, specialised materials (metallurgy) and mechanics of materials, unsteady aerodynamics, mechanical system design, control systems etc. 
After establishing these centres of excellence, you also need collaborations and JV with advanced foreign institutions and industries. Govt of Pakistan lacks this vision.

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## messiach

Continuous combustion is not a feasible option....60% power goes to compressor to keep cycle going. Multiple turbine stages may offer some efficiency advantage. Mid East sure.



BATMAN said:


> Leader in turbine design and associated control systems is GE.
> Wartsilla... as per my knowledge is into slow speed engines, based on crude oil combustion.
> They do have a similar component called Turbo charger, which circulate the flue gases... essentially a turbine but they buy it form 2 external suppliers. Which is simply a complimenting component of power a system not the prime mover.
> Better alloys in future may increase MTBSI, but future energy market is moving towards renewables.
> There will be no new firms popping up in future.
> As I agreed, fighter a/c engine still doesn't have an alternate.
> If Pakistan need to go down that path, they need to find their way in to the ME market and take experience and than they will have manpower available, which can help in building turbine designs.



I have withdrawn this post. This was a semi-private conversation at a marriage ceremony of an PA officer sibling. I do not wish to divulge any further.


araz said:


> We have for far too long neglected far too many perojects as people have stomachs to fill from commissions from foreign vendors. You know how people are vined and dined and their "every need" looked after when they go abroad for negotiations. This is the sad reality of our acquisition cycles. We think more of ourselves than the country.
> Araz



This post is withdrawn.


messiach said:


> I for once and i think only once posed a similar Q to a serving AVM. The Q was, our state is practically & effectively a security state and so everything incld. R&D revolves around security concerns first and foremost & people/welfare comes somewhere down the list. So why & how is it that security projects like turbine R/D, electricity generation etc are nowhere on the list of security concerns in a security state surrounded by enemies. This logically should have been on the top of the list. There were at-least three serving AVM and at-least half a dozen retd. officers and one retd. ACM sitting on that table and NO one could answer this question. All i got was a raw smile.
> 
> It is NOT on the list of national priorities. No government military/civilian alike intentionally and I have said this time & again intent-fully neglected these national security concerns. The resultant fallout was fully predictable and well-known.

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## DarX

Saif-ud-Din Qutuz said:


> I ain't nervous. Probably, you're nervous because you won't get paid by Noora and co. this month lol.



But I see that you are getting your allowance regularly from your charlatan leader.

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## Chak Bamu

@DarX & @Saif-ud-Din Qutuz 

Please keep politics off these threads. Your personal spats shall get negative ratings from hereon. Do not complain then.

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## DarX

Chak Bamu said:


> @DarX & @Saif-ud-Din Qutuz
> 
> Please keep politics off these threads. Your personal spats shall get negative ratings from hereon. Do not complain then.



That is totally understandable. There won't be any responses to this issue from my side.

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## araz

messiach said:


> Continuous combustion is not a feasible option....60% power goes to compressor to keep cycle going. Multiple turbine stages may offer some efficiency advantage. Mid East sure.
> 
> 
> 
> I have withdrawn this post. This was a semi-private conversation at a marriage ceremony of an PA officer sibling. I do not wish to divulge any further.
> 
> 
> This post is withdrawn.


What has been written can not be unwritten.I understand your concerns and the fact that you dont want to divulge any more information. The fact remains that critical technologies have been dealt with in a novice way and ignored in favour of cheap solutions when we had the get up and go to achieve our aims. This is why we are still begging the ukrainians for their engine Technology, knowing fully well that what we are asking for today could have been there if we had mad e a little investment in time and personell. 
A

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## Saif-ud-Din Qutuz

DarX said:


> But I see that you are getting your allowance regularly from your charlatan leader.


I don't need to get paid from any political party. I'm not a loser like you. I'm an entrepreneur who provides job and doesn't look at others to get one. Loser



Chak Bamu said:


> @DarX & @Saif-ud-Din Qutuz
> 
> Please keep politics off these threads. Your personal spats shall get negative ratings from hereon. Do not complain then.


Now that's good. I'm not in to any political talk. That other guy is a psycho. He doesn't understand it.

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## his5850

hacker J said:


> Sire, no doubt jf17 is not at al a bad aircraft. Cheap healthy and customisable but it just doesn go down the throat that just because jf17 is tailor made for paf(remember cac doing all designing prototyping and testing) that plaaf is not even buying 1 squadrn because they have j 10, they also have pretty old j 7 too which can be replaced very cheaply wd jf 17 as j 10 is almost costing double. Plaaf can for stop gap measure use jf 17 for many reasons. Dun gv xample of f2 or any other aircraft they are based on original aircraft design of f 16 and us already deploys f 16 which are similarly capable. Which aircraft is jf 17 based on ???
> I belive even if after block 3 if plaaf doesn buy jf 17 it wl seriously dent the image of jf 17 as well as doubts will remain is it really as capable as it is marketed.



I don't think so like USA which have F-15 and F-16 in their air force for long time in the in the same way if you see F-7 why not replace it all of them with J-10 isn't adding more j-10 will be cheaper if u add JF-17 there would be too many planes for single job which is multi role fighter it will add more cost and add more classes which meaning u have to build number of different spare parts and war tactics 

all em saying if u have 2 different type of multi role fight it will be cheaper for u rather then running 3 different type of plans for the same job

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## DarX

hacker J said:


> Sire, no doubt jf17 is not at al a bad aircraft. Cheap healthy and customisable but it just doesn go down the throat that just because jf17 is tailor made for paf(remember cac doing all designing prototyping and testing) that plaaf is not even buying 1 squadrn because they have j 10, they also have pretty old j 7 too which can be replaced very cheaply wd jf 17 as j 10 is almost costing double. Plaaf can for stop gap measure use jf 17 for many reasons. Dun gv xample of f2 or any other aircraft they are based on original aircraft design of f 16 and us already deploys f 16 which are similarly capable. Which aircraft is jf 17 based on ???
> I belive even if after block 3 if plaaf doesn buy jf 17 it wl seriously dent the image of jf 17 as well as doubts will remain is it really as capable as it is marketed.



There is some substance in this contention about why the PLAAF is not ordering the JF-17. My guess is that the Chinese are waiting for a more developed version such as the Block-3, which has upgrades to the airframe besides its control systems and avionics.

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## DarX

Saif-ud-Din Qutuz said:


> I don't need to get paid from any political party. I'm not a loser like you. I'm an entrepreneur who provides job and doesn't look at others to get one. Loser
> 
> 
> Now that's good. I'm not in to any political talk. That other guy is a psycho. He doesn't understand it.





Chak Bamu said:


> @DarX & @Saif-ud-Din Qutuz
> 
> Please keep politics off these threads. Your personal spats shall get negative ratings from hereon. Do not complain then.



@Chak Bamu

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## hacker J

DarX said:


> There is some substance in this contention about why the PLAAF is not ordering the JF-17. My guess is that the Chinese are waiting for a more developed version such as the Block-3, which has upgrades to the airframe besides its control systems and avionics.



My guess is also the same, block 3 they are waiting. If block 3 is a quantum leap ahead that explains things. But if they want block 3 why not block 2 ? it is better than f7 and cheap and upgadable to block 3. Such questions can be answered but in case they did not order at all,
Then they might be selling cheap shit to pakistan for money thats it. Chinese are already bloody money minded nothing is for free from them. No one knows it better than pakistan specially with CPEC. 
But till then its a question only PLAAF official can answer  .



his5850 said:


> I don't think so like USA which have F-15 and F-16 in their air force for long time in the in the same way if you see F-7 why not replace it all of them with J-10 isn't adding more j-10 will be cheaper if u add JF-17 there would be too many planes for single job which is multi role fighter it will add more cost and add more classes which meaning u have to build number of different spare parts and war tactics
> 
> all em saying if u have 2 different type of multi role fight it will be cheaper for u rather then running 3 different type of plans for the same job



Let me try and correct you
1) F 15 is air superiority fighter and f 16 was a light multi role platform from the start (now they have been customised according to user needs but they were designed for different roles) n the concept of one plane is obviously better but it is not in place with coming of f 35 not before that, and many argue against it too thats why a 10 is still in service
2) F 7 is a interceptor with limited ground attack roles, j 10 is medium weight multirole aircraft and jf 17 is a light multirole aircraft. j 10 was created in requirement of cheap multirole platform (j11 j15 j16 and j 20) all have better range and payload and it is replacing f 7s in service which gives them additional operational effectiveness as a multirole aircraft.
Now my question in we are moving ahead which 5th gen aircraft and j 10 almost costs double than jf 17 so for a stop gap measure where 5th gen planes replace all gen? why are they not going for jf 17 ? (remember they have jf 17 assemble lines, they still deliver some parts to pakistan, they designed it so no prob of maintanince, they are also building indigenous engines for it while j 10 uses russion one.
Not sayig jf 17 is a bad aircraft but it can easily be produced in numbers to replace 3rd gen aircrafts with roles like coin, advance trainer, and light attack and light multirole plactform. You don't always need bombing trucks to do job and jf 17 (as per discription can do everything).
Unless the growth potential in jf 17 is very limited(thats the reason i am assuming).

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## DarX

hacker J said:


> My guess is also the same, block 3 they are waiting. If block 3 is a quantum leap ahead that explains things. But if they want block 3 why not block 2 ? it is better than f7 and cheap and upgadable to block 3. Such questions can be answered but in case they did not order at all,
> Then they might be selling cheap shit to pakistan for money thats it. Chinese are already bloody money minded nothing is for free from them. No one knows it better than pakistan specially with CPEC.
> But till then its a question only PLAAF official can answer  .
> 
> 
> 
> Let me try and correct you
> 1) F 15 is air superiority fighter and f 16 was a light multi role platform from the start (now they have been customised according to user needs but they were designed for different roles) n the concept of one plane is obviously better but it is not in place with coming of f 35 not before that, and many argue against it too thats why a 10 is still in service
> 2) F 7 is a interceptor with limited ground attack roles, j 10 is medium weight multirole aircraft and jf 17 is a light multirole aircraft. j 10 was created in requirement of cheap multirole platform (j11 j15 j16 and j 20) all have better range and payload and it is replacing f 7s in service which gives them additional operational effectiveness as a multirole aircraft.
> Now my question in we are moving ahead which 5th gen aircraft and j 10 almost costs double than jf 17 so for a stop gap measure where 5th gen planes replace all gen? why are they not going for jf 17 ? (remember they have jf 17 assemble lines, they still deliver some parts to pakistan, they designed it so no prob of maintanince, they are also building indigenous engines for it while j 10 uses russion one.
> Not sayig jf 17 is a bad aircraft but it can easily be produced in numbers to replace 3rd gen aircrafts with roles like coin, advance trainer, and light attack and light multirole plactform. You don't always need bombing trucks to do job and jf 17 (as per discription can do everything).
> Unless the growth potential in jf 17 is very limited(thats the reason i am assuming).



I think there are a number of factors which might explain this. The PLAAF operates huge fleets of older jets and so converting the infrastructure once to Block-2 planes, and then again to Block-3 planes, would require massive amounts of resources and effort. The PLAAF must've significant resources tied up in the supply lines of the older jets. The PAF on the other hand had retired the F-6 fleet and closed its rebuild factory. The Q-5 was being maintained from the left over spare parts. Thus it needed the Block-1 urgently to replace these planes. 

Other than this, I think the PLAAF doesn't face the same urgency that the PAF faces, as it has very capable plane in the form of the J-10 available to it. The J-10 also uses the same engine as the J-11 which minimizes supply lines and so satisfies China's needs very effectively. In the end, China might never order the JF-17 for this reason, as it has a much more powerful jet in its place.


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## hacker J

DarX said:


> I think there are a number of factors which might explain this. The PLAAF operates huge fleets of older jets and so converting the infrastructure once to Block-2 planes, and then again to Block-3 planes, would require massive amounts of resources and effort. The PLAAF must've significant resources tied up in the supply lines of the older jets. The PAF on the other hand had retired the F-6 fleet and closed its rebuild factory. The Q-5 was being maintained from the left over spare parts. Thus it needed the Block-1 urgently to replace these planes.
> 
> Other than this, I think the PLAAF doesn't face the same urgency that the PAF faces, as it has very capable plane in the form of the J-10 available to it. The J-10 also uses the same engine as the J-11 which minimizes supply lines and so satisfies China's needs very effectively. In the end, China might never order the JF-17 for this reason, as it has a much more powerful jet in its place.



As i told earlier powerful is not d explaination. If powerful jets were only needed then why to go fr j 10, j11 are alone very capable. Now again one of the qualities of jf 17 as stressed upon by senior members here ws that it could be easily upgaded to block 3. If that has massive investments means ur buying block one and then re buying it to convert to block 2 and 3 ??
I am not just stressing that jf 17 is for the role of j 10 but there are other roles as well which jft can suppliment as a cost effective solution. Some of them are coin, advance trainer, light attack, point defence, normal patroll services, light cost effective plane near d sea servilliance specially wd drop tanks. 
And the urgency is there in plaaf as they want to mve ahead of 3rd gen as fast as poasible to match us airforce which is having already 4plus aircrafts to d least.

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> I for once and i think only once posed a similar Q to a serving AVM. The Q was, our state is practically & effectively a security state and so everything incld. R&D revolves around security concerns first and foremost & people/welfare comes somewhere down the list. So why & how is it that security projects like turbine R/D, electricity generation etc are nowhere on the list of security concerns in a security state surrounded by enemies. This logically should have been on the top of the list. There were at-least three serving AVM and at-least half a dozen retd. officers and one retd. ACM sitting on that table and NO one could answer this question. All i got was a raw smile.
> 
> It is NOT on the list of national priorities. No government military/civilian alike intentionally and I have said this time & again intent-fully neglected these national security concerns. The resultant fallout was fully predictable and well-known.


Understood you withdrew post, but Same reasons I walked away much earlier from the field. Even in security concerns the projects are dictacted by the idiotic- Ill restate - IDIOTIC concept of "Unless India has it, we don't need to bulld it" 
This is enforced from the earliest days of R&D at all institutions incl the one next to Fauji Foundation. Newer kids part of that organization have expressed massive frustration, those that were not desperate or not capable of sticking to the "box" left.

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## DarX

hacker J said:


> As i told earlier powerful is not d explaination. If powerful jets were only needed then why to go fr j 10, j11 are alone very capable. Now again one of the qualities of jf 17 as stressed upon by senior members here ws that it could be easily upgaded to block 3. If that has massive investments means ur buying block one and then re buying it to convert to block 2 and 3 ??
> I am not just stressing that jf 17 is for the role of j 10 but there are other roles as well which jft can suppliment as a cost effective solution. Some of them are coin, advance trainer, light attack, point defence, normal patroll services, light cost effective plane near d sea servilliance specially wd drop tanks.
> And the urgency is there in plaaf as they want to mve ahead of 3rd gen as fast as poasible to match us airforce which is having already 4plus aircrafts to d least.



Your points are absolutely valid. It actually looks very reasonable for the PLAAF to induct a JF-17 type jet as a second line economical fighter. In the end, I think the only logical explanation might be that the PLAAF is either waiting for the Block-3, which has air frame and avionics upgrades, or it is skipping the plane altogether.



hacker J said:


> Then they might be selling cheap shit to pakistan for money thats it. Chinese are already bloody money minded nothing is for free from them. No one knows it better than pakistan specially with CPEC.



With reference to your point regarding the CPEC, I don't think it is unreasonable of the Chinese to package their investment as loans. In this way, it is ensured that the financing is not taken for granted and discipline is maintained. I can assure you that this project is the flagship of their OBOR scheme, which is designed to build China's global stature on the lines of America's Marshal plan, and they cannot be seen to have run their flagship project, and their only ally, into the ground on account of a few dollars. The CPEC also has many other benefits, which is why many countries around the world are panicking, and powerful countries do not panic just because of a few roads.

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## his5850

hacker J said:


> My guess is also the same, block 3 they are waiting. If block 3 is a quantum leap ahead that explains things. But if they want block 3 why not block 2 ? it is better than f7 and cheap and upgadable to block 3. Such questions can be answered but in case they did not order at all,
> Then they might be selling cheap shit to pakistan for money thats it. Chinese are already bloody money minded nothing is for free from them. No one knows it better than pakistan specially with CPEC.
> But till then its a question only PLAAF official can answer  .
> 
> 
> 
> Let me try and correct you
> 1) F 15 is air superiority fighter and f 16 was a light multi role platform from the start (now they have been customised according to user needs but they were designed for different roles) n the concept of one plane is obviously better but it is not in place with coming of f 35 not before that, and many argue against it too thats why a 10 is still in service
> 2) F 7 is a interceptor with limited ground attack roles, j 10 is medium weight multirole aircraft and jf 17 is a light multirole aircraft. j 10 was created in requirement of cheap multirole platform (j11 j15 j16 and j 20) all have better range and payload and it is replacing f 7s in service which gives them additional operational effectiveness as a multirole aircraft.
> Now my question in we are moving ahead which 5th gen aircraft and j 10 almost costs double than jf 17 so for a stop gap measure where 5th gen planes replace all gen? why are they not going for jf 17 ? (remember they have jf 17 assemble lines, they still deliver some parts to pakistan, they designed it so no prob of maintanince, they are also building indigenous engines for it while j 10 uses russion one.
> Not sayig jf 17 is a bad aircraft but it can easily be produced in numbers to replace 3rd gen aircrafts with roles like coin, advance trainer, and light attack and light multirole plactform. You don't always need bombing trucks to do job and jf 17 (as per discription can do everything).
> Unless the growth potential in jf 17 is very limited(thats the reason i am assuming).



JF-17 parts production going from 60% to 80% in Pakistan next year. PLAAF i think is skipping Jf-17 like PAF did. J10 is medium weight fighter so heavy and medium weight fighter will be better and cheaper option because J-10 and J-11 share many parts which will be cheaper to run in long run engine is same so running cost will be low. that's why i think there is not point for JF-17 in PLAAF there is one more point to make they are fallowing the US model for there air force

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## hacker J

his5850 said:


> JF-17 parts production going from 60% to 80% in Pakistan next year. PLAAF i think is skipping Jf-17 like PAF did. J10 is medium weight fighter so heavy and medium weight fighter will be better and cheaper option because J-10 and J-11 share many parts which will be cheaper to run in long run engine is same so running cost will be low. that's why i think there is not point for JF-17 in PLAAF there is one more point to make they are fallowing the US model for there air force



sir, firstly when u talk about 60% to 80%(assuming ur numbers to be correct) its all about the parts of airframe and that too doesn includes parts like landing gear and hydraulics. Even rafael is upto 30% of total plane is imported, because there are many parts in the airplane. As mentioned ubove get out of the illusion of numbers and stop confusing others too. Now if china wants to follow usa then they should be more than desperate to remve all 3rd gen fighters with 4th gen aircrafts ryt, so y not do it with jf 17 ? j 10 and j 11 share no part in common except engine and some avionics and armaments. besides engine every thing else can be shared by jf 17 as well, plus i dn't want to replace j 10 with jf 17 i am just trying to understand why they are skipping this plane which can cheaply remove all their fleet(in some other roles like coin, light multirole, patrole duties, trainer etc) with cost effective solution and in long turn they can eventually replace all by 5 gen airplanes(because us is planning so). And no matter what parts pak produces in house with TOT all original parts were designed, tested in china first.

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> I for once and i think only once posed a similar Q to a serving AVM. The Q was, our state is practically & effectively a security state and so everything incld. R&D revolves around security concerns first and foremost & people/welfare comes somewhere down the list. So why & how is it that security projects like turbine R/D, electricity generation etc are nowhere on the list of security concerns in a security state surrounded by enemies. This logically should have been on the top of the list. There were at-least three serving AVM and at-least half a dozen retd. officers and one retd. ACM sitting on that table and NO one could answer this question. All i got was a raw smile.
> 
> It is NOT on the list of national priorities. No government military/civilian alike intentionally and I have said this time & again intent-fully neglected these national security concerns. The resultant fallout was fully predictable and well-known.



Hi,

Thank you for your post---.

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## Sameer25

this is so sad, we should get rid of then right now because f7s are really unreliable


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## araz

hacker J said:


> sir, firstly when u talk about 60% to 80%(assuming ur numbers to be correct) its all about the parts of airframe and that too doesn includes parts like landing gear and hydraulics. Even rafael is upto 30% of total plane is imported, because there are many parts in the airplane. As mentioned ubove get out of the illusion of numbers and stop confusing others too. Now if china wants to follow usa then they should be more than desperate to remve all 3rd gen fighters with 4th gen aircrafts ryt, so y not do it with jf 17 ? j 10 and j 11 share no part in common except engine and some avionics and armaments. besides engine every thing else can be shared by jf 17 as well, plus i dn't want to replace j 10 with jf 17 i am just trying to understand why they are skipping this plane which can cheaply remove all their fleet(in some other roles like coin, light multirole, patrole duties, trainer etc) with cost effective solution and in long turn they can eventually replace all by 5 gen airplanes(because us is planning so). And no matter what parts pak produces in house with TOT all original parts were designed, tested in china first.


Inappropriately posted in this section. Go to the relevant section on JFT and read from first page. Your querry has been answered many times. Please read all the posts before asking again.
Regards
A


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## messiach

These days i have to travel almost twice weekly between bristol--regensburg. Lot of management issues. 
You are on spot. I have been away for 13 yrs now. I hear things are changing. You know better, you are on ground.



Oscar said:


> Understood you withdrew post, but Same reasons I walked away much earlier from the field. Even in security concerns the projects are dictacted by the idiotic- Ill restate - IDIOTIC concept of "Unless India has it, we don't need to bulld it"
> This is enforced from the earliest days of R&D at all institutions incl the one next to Fauji Foundation. Newer kids part of that organization have expressed massive frustration, those that were not desperate or not capable of sticking to the "box" left.



I have been away for thirteen yrs but things have changed. The 13f is a turbojet with erratic performance characteristics at extreme altitudes both ways. My understanding is that could be a reason for recent F7 problems.
Turbofans have for more reliable characteristics.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post---.

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## Devil Soul

*پاکستان ایئرفورس کا تربیتی طیارہ گر کر تباہ ،پائلٹ محفوظ رہا*
 13 اکتوبر 2017 (15:52)
جنوبی وزیرستان (ڈیلی پاکستان آن لائن )جنوبی وزیر ستان میں پاکستان ایئرفورس کا تربیتی طیارہ مشاق گر کر تباہ ہو گیا تاہم حادثے میں پائلٹ سمیت تمام افراد محفوظ رہے ۔



نجی نیوز چینل ایکسپریس نیوز کے مطابق جنوبی وزیر ستان کی تحصیل وانا میں وانا ایئرسٹرپ سے تربیتی طیارے مشاق نے اڑان بھری تاہم چند لمحوں بعدوانا سٹیڈیم کے قریب ہی طیارہ حادثے کا شکار ہو گیا ا س کے نتیجے میں کسی قسم کا جانی نقصان نہیں ہوا اور پائلٹ 
سمیت تینوں افراد محفوظ رہے ۔ابتدائی اطلاعات کے مطابق حادثے کی وجہ معلوم نہیں ہو سکی ۔
http://dailypakistan.com.pk/national/13-Oct-2017/658883


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## CriticalThought

Devil Soul said:


> *پاکستان ایئرفورس کا تربیتی طیارہ گر کر تباہ ،پائلٹ محفوظ رہا*
> 13 اکتوبر 2017 (15:52)
> جنوبی وزیرستان (ڈیلی پاکستان آن لائن )جنوبی وزیر ستان میں پاکستان ایئرفورس کا تربیتی طیارہ مشاق گر کر تباہ ہو گیا تاہم حادثے میں پائلٹ سمیت تمام افراد محفوظ رہے ۔
> 
> 
> 
> نجی نیوز چینل ایکسپریس نیوز کے مطابق جنوبی وزیر ستان کی تحصیل وانا میں وانا ایئرسٹرپ سے تربیتی طیارے مشاق نے اڑان بھری تاہم چند لمحوں بعدوانا سٹیڈیم کے قریب ہی طیارہ حادثے کا شکار ہو گیا ا س کے نتیجے میں کسی قسم کا جانی نقصان نہیں ہوا اور پائلٹ
> سمیت تینوں افراد محفوظ رہے ۔ابتدائی اطلاعات کے مطابق حادثے کی وجہ معلوم نہیں ہو سکی ۔
> http://dailypakistan.com.pk/national/13-Oct-2017/658883



Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Raji'oon


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## Hell hound

CriticalThought said:


> Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Raji'oon


mate everyone aboard is safe


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## Windjammer

Pathetic media reporting.
It was an army Mushaq aircraft which actually crash landed... and everyone on board is safe.

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## Sinnerman108

Hell hound said:


> mate everyone aboard is safe



its a prayer for bad news 

not just death

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## Morse_Code

Devil Soul said:


> *پاکستان ایئرفورس کا تربیتی طیارہ گر کر تباہ ،پائلٹ محفوظ رہا*
> 13 اکتوبر 2017 (15:52)
> جنوبی وزیرستان (ڈیلی پاکستان آن لائن )جنوبی وزیر ستان میں پاکستان ایئرفورس کا تربیتی طیارہ مشاق گر کر تباہ ہو گیا تاہم حادثے میں پائلٹ سمیت تمام افراد محفوظ رہے ۔
> 
> 
> 
> نجی نیوز چینل ایکسپریس نیوز کے مطابق جنوبی وزیر ستان کی تحصیل وانا میں وانا ایئرسٹرپ سے تربیتی طیارے مشاق نے اڑان بھری تاہم چند لمحوں بعدوانا سٹیڈیم کے قریب ہی طیارہ حادثے کا شکار ہو گیا ا س کے نتیجے میں کسی قسم کا جانی نقصان نہیں ہوا اور پائلٹ
> سمیت تینوں افراد محفوظ رہے ۔ابتدائی اطلاعات کے مطابق حادثے کی وجہ معلوم نہیں ہو سکی ۔
> http://dailypakistan.com.pk/national/13-Oct-2017/658883


It was a crash landing!


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## STRANGER BIRD

Army's Mushak aircraft made an emergency hard landing in WANA, crew sustained injuries but remain in a stable condition.


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## CriticalThought

Hell hound said:


> mate everyone aboard is safe



As @Sinnerman108 said, it is a prayer for any kind of loss, or adversity.


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## syed zia Hassan

f-7p and Mig-21 the Age of Air craft is over now.. and I mean PAF mirages are also too old. Its well done work for PAF to used them today

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## Safriz

syed zia Hassan said:


> f-7p and Mig-21 the Age of Air craft is over now.. and I mean PAF mirages are also too old. Its well done work for PAF to used them today


Seriously don't update this thread with random comments.


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## syed zia Hassan

شاھین میزایل said:


> Seriously don't update this thread with random comments.


ok sir


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## Taygibay

But let's help our new mate a bit, shall we?


Syed Zia, welcome first of all and although
I got your meaning about attrition / crashes
the threads about each type of aircraft exist
and some on specific risk of older frames.

Just understand that this is no choice of PAF
nor of PakGovt. It is purely economics! IF ...

if the money was there, new aircrafts apart
from Thunders would be coming in for the
purpose of replacing the geriatric cases.

Even then, by assuming this extra duration
early on and having upgrade programs set
up to tackle adding/ensuring such longevity,
http://www.pac.org.pk/mrf​Pakistan through PAC and PAF learned quite
a lot as well as spurring growth for the core
competencies to build a stable industrial and
engineering base in the field. Quite visionary!

The years went by, the money's still lacking
but hey, selling Mushshaks and JF-17s is now
a reality and that means some influx of cash?

So yes to the frustration but no to the despair
and full respect to the lads that run those ACs
and a risk they assume.

Good day to you, Tay.

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## Incog_nito

Why not PAC convert all of those old Mushak into UCAVs. Pakistan Army & Air Force can jointly operate them in border areas as well as in areas like Balochistan and KPK for conducting operations.


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## AMG_12

Oxair Online said:


> Why not PAC convert all of those old Mushak into UCAVs. Pakistan Army & Air Force can jointly operate them in border areas as well as in areas like Balochistan and KPK for conducting operations.


Stop reviving threads with useless questions.

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## Windjammer

#BREAKING: Pilot, co-pilot survive as #PAF training aircraft crashes in #Lahore






The pilot and trainee co-pilot of a small training aircraft were slightly wounded when their plane crashed in Lahore's Garden Town area after experiencing technical difficulties, _DawnNewsTV_ reported on Tuesday.

According to _DawnNewsTV_, firefighters were quickly able to contain a fire which had erupted after the plane crash landed.

Rescue 1122 teams transported the plane's pilot, Muhammad Faheem, and co-pilot, Hasham, to a nearby hospital. Doctors confirmed that the two men had received only minor injuries.

The nature of the technical fault that led to the crash has yet to be determined.

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## Maarkhoor

Windjammer said:


> #BREAKING: Pilot, co-pilot survive as #PAF training aircraft crashes in #Lahore


Which aircraft Miraj or Mushak?


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## Windjammer

Looks like some micro light aircraft to me.

http://video.dunyanews.tv/index.php...ane-crashes-in-Model-Town-Lahore#.WvGOi-jwa00


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## Maarkhoor

Windjammer said:


> #BREAKING: Pilot, co-pilot survive as #PAF training aircraft crashes in #Lahore
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pilot and trainee co-pilot of a small training aircraft were slightly wounded when their plane crashed in Lahore's Garden Town area after experiencing technical difficulties, _DawnNewsTV_ reported on Tuesday.
> 
> According to _DawnNewsTV_, firefighters were quickly able to contain a fire which had erupted after the plane crash landed.
> 
> Rescue 1122 teams transported the plane's pilot, Muhammad Faheem, and co-pilot, Hasham, to a nearby hospital. Doctors confirmed that the two men had received only minor injuries.
> 
> The nature of the technical fault that led to the crash has yet to be determined.


Look like Saab Safari copy.



Windjammer said:


> Looks like some micro light aircraft to me.
> 
> http://video.dunyanews.tv/index.php...ane-crashes-in-Model-Town-Lahore#.WvGOi-jwa00


Saab Safari's improved version.


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## Devil Soul

^^ Private not PAF....


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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> #BREAKING: Pilot, co-pilot survive as #PAF training aircraft crashes in #Lahore
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pilot and trainee co-pilot of a small training aircraft were slightly wounded when their plane crashed in Lahore's Garden Town area after experiencing technical difficulties, _DawnNewsTV_ reported on Tuesday.
> 
> According to _DawnNewsTV_, firefighters were quickly able to contain a fire which had erupted after the plane crash landed.
> 
> Rescue 1122 teams transported the plane's pilot, Muhammad Faheem, and co-pilot, Hasham, to a nearby hospital. Doctors confirmed that the two men had received only minor injuries.
> 
> The nature of the technical fault that led to the crash has yet to be determined.


Not PAF...fokker of USFC or LFC based at Walton.


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## alimobin memon

https://www.geo.tv/latest/200752-fighter-jet-crashes-at-peshawar-airport

Pilot Martyred, Inna Lillahi Wa Inna illahe Rajioon Fighter Trainer Crashed


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## Talon

alimobin memon said:


> https://www.geo.tv/latest/200752-fighter-jet-crashes-at-peshawar-airport
> 
> Pilot Martyred, Inna Lillahi Wa Inna illahe Rajioon Fighter Crashed



Both pilots martyred...WC Umar and FO Israr


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## Salza

Hodor said:


> Both pilots martyred...WC Umar and FO Israr



you sure ? E.T saying no deaths reported yet


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## Windjammer

Salza said:


> you sure ? E.T saying no deaths reported yet


Sadly PAF has confirmed the martyrdom of two pilots .







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1011522595710218240


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## CHACHA"G"

Very sad news,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Great , great loss ,,,,,,,, F-7PG ,




*An eye-witness told Geo News, "The pilots tried to save the nearby civilian population and steered the jet towards the runway but it blew up during crash-landing." *
https://www.geo.tv/latest/200752-fighter-jet-crashes-at-peshawar-airport

Man why they did not eject from that plane when it was on runway...………

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## Chak Bamu

Heart breaking Loss, if true and confirmed.

Inna-lillah wa inna-ilaihi rajioun


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## SALMI

Inna-lillah wa inna-ilaihi rajioun. Wing commander Umar shaheed had recently acheived Tamgha e Imtiaz.


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## Windjammer

*
A truly great loss..... Wing Commander Umer Chaudhary and Flying Officer Israr. R.I.P*

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## Devil Soul

Inna-lillah wa inna-ilaihi rajioun


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## Rashid Mahmood



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## BRAVO_

RIP... very tragic news


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## Maarkhoor

*2 pilots martyred as PAF aircraft crashes at Peshawar Air Base*
RIP....

"Pakistan Air Force reports with regret that a PAF FT-7PG trainer aircraft, while recovering from a routine operational training mission, crashed during landing at Peshawar Air Base," the PAF statement reads.


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## Asimzranger

inalilahi wainalilahi rojiun sad news anyone know what was the cause of plane crash and which one was it k-8 or mushshak.


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## Sinnerman108

The PGs need to go, as soon as possible !

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## NeonNinja

Inna-lillah wa inna-ilaihi rajioun


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## ejaz007

*Two pilots martyred as fighter jet crashes in Peshawar*


Listen







*PESHAWAR: Two pilots were martyred after a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft crashed at the Peshawar Air Base on Tuesday.*

According to a statement issued by the PAF, the FT-7PG aircraft came down while recovering from a routine operational training mission.

The PAF said rescue operation was underway in the area.

"Pakistan Air Force reports with regret that a PAF FT-7PG trainer aircraft, while recovering from a routine operational training mission, crashed during landing at Peshawar Air Base. "

According to Geo News the jet caught fire came down on the runway.


https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/333996-pilot-martyred-as-fighter-jet-crashes-in-peshawar


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## Maxpane

RIP


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## graphican

RIP. RIP. RIP.


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## Sine Nomine

.إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ
Seems like we are going to catch India in Flying Coffins Race.
We Must replace these birds,whatever we are trying to tell ourselves,there days are gone.


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## Blackpearl

https://www.dawn.com/news/1416222/2-pilots-martyred-as-paf-aircraft-crashes-at-peshawar-air-base

_As reported in Dawn News

"About 11 or 12 F7-PGs/FT-7PGs have been lost during their 15 years in service. The PAF has more than 50 of the Chinese-made aircraft in its fleet.

The losses of F7-PGs/FT-7PGs in air crashes are within normal limits, aviation experts claim.

Additional reporting by Naveed Siddiqui."_


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## The Accountant

Blackpearl said:


> https://www.dawn.com/news/1416222/2-pilots-martyred-as-paf-aircraft-crashes-at-peshawar-air-base
> 
> _As reported in Dawn News
> 
> "About 11 or 12 F7-PGs/FT-7PGs have been lost during their 15 years in service. The PAF has more than 50 of the Chinese-made aircraft in its fleet.
> 
> The losses of F7-PGs/FT-7PGs in air crashes are within normal limits, aviation experts claim.
> 
> Additional reporting by Naveed Siddiqui."_


What are normal limits


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## undercover JIX




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## Fledgingwings

1 Jet crashed today.both pilots earned shahadat ! Pray for More blessings for our departed men of steel


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## ghazi52

*إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ*


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## ghazi52

*AhmAd IbrAhim*‏ @AhmAdTipu7
Flg Off Israr along with Wg Cdr Umar have embraced shahadat today in an FT-7 PG aircraft crash in Peshawar. Crash occurred due to engine flameout.






















4:37 AM - 26 Jun 2018

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## Safriz

Must be a bird strike.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

.إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


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## Imran Khan

RIP our defenders


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## Reichsmarschall

Windjammer said:


> Sadly PAF has confirmed the martyrdom of two pilots .
> 
> View attachment 482512
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1011522595710218240


this place looks like Avn Qasim Base


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## My-Analogous

alimobin memon said:


> https://www.geo.tv/latest/200752-fighter-jet-crashes-at-peshawar-airport
> 
> Pilot Martyred, Inna Lillahi Wa Inna illahe Rajioon Fighter Trainer Crashed

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> *AhmAd IbrAhim*‏ @AhmAdTipu7
> Flg Off Israr along with Wg Cdr Umar have embraced shahadat today in an FT-7 PG aircraft crash in Peshawar. Crash occurred due to engine flameout.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4:37 AM - 26 Jun 2018



Was he the OC or flight commander of the sqn Lt Col rank ?


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## Raider 21

khanasifm said:


> Was he the OC or flight commander of the sqn Lt Col rank ?


Flight commander.


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## Windjammer

شاھین میزایل said:


> Must be a bird strike.



Apparently after completing it's mission as the aircraft was returning to base, there was a fire on board, the pilots stayed with the aircraft as it was flying over a built up area and while making an emergency landing, it disintegrated.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

The undershoot of Peshawar airport is a very densely populated area; Bara road/Ring road passes thru it. I know a lot of people living there and according to them the aircraft was smoking throughout the landing approach, which was lower than usual and the aircraft had an usually high nose up attitude.


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## Raider 21

Logical Pakistani said:


> The undershoot of Peshawar airport is a very densely populated area; Bara road/Ring road passes thru it. I know a lot of people living there and according to them the aircraft was smoking throughout the landing approach, which was lower than usual and the aircraft had an usually high nose up attitude.


It is very sad but this is not the first time Peshawar had incidents like that. Plenty A-5s have crashed just short of the runway with aircraft crashing into the city just short of runway 17.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Knuckles said:


> It is very sad but this is not the first time Peshawar had incidents like that. Plenty A-5s have crashed just short of the runway with aircraft crashing into the city just short of runway 17.


The locals were praying a lot for the pilots praising them for avoiding the populated areas. It was smoking in the air for quite a lot of time apparently.


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## Raider 21

Logical Pakistani said:


> The locals were praying a lot for the pilots praising them for avoiding the populated areas. It was smoking in the air for quite a lot of time apparently.


Then they pushed their luck too far....then again depends on where they were when the jet caught fire. Ideally they should've ejected once they reached the runway. I'm sure the investigation board will know the answers.

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## MastanKhan

Logical Pakistani said:


> The locals were praying a lot for the pilots praising them for avoiding the populated areas. It was smoking in the air for quite a lot of time apparently.




Hi,

Fck the praise---I would rather have alive fighter pilots any day than praise for the dead pilots men or women---.

These " accidental deaths " keep on repeating like a needle stuck on a record player---.

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## aftab_s81

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Fck the praise---I would rather have alive fighter pilots any day than praise for the dead pilots men or women---.
> 
> These " accidental deaths " keep on repeating like a needle stuck on a record player---.


To me it seems like we have problems with ejection seats, out of two JF-17 crashed, non survived.

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## AMG_12

aftab_s81 said:


> To me it seems like we have problems with ejection seats, out of two JF-17 crashed, non survived.


One crashed into the sea.

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## aftab_s81

Game.Invade said:


> One crashed into the sea.


The first crash was near Kamra, probably wing uprooted.

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## MastanKhan

aftab_s81 said:


> To me it seems like we have problems with ejection seats, out of two JF-17 crashed, non survived.




Hi,

It is more of an issue for ' ejection happening too late '---.

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## araz

aftab_s81 said:


> The first crash was near Kamra, probably wing uprooted.


On both occasions the pilot ejected safely. In Kamra due to the angle and the height the plane was at, the pilot ejected but crashed against the mountian side and died. The second pilot ejected into the sea and if I remember correctly was saved.
A

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

aftab_s81 said:


> To me it seems like we have problems with ejection seats, out of two JF-17 crashed, non survived.


The first time a Thunder crashed, the pilot ejected, but the pilot's parachute didn't completely open. As for the second crash there wasn't really an official statement, so the details of that crash remain shrouded in mystery for now. In this case, there was engine flameout, naturally this means a constantly decreasing speed. The airport in Peshawar has a concrete perimeter wall, which, on the approach end of the runway was recently increased in height. Owing to decrease in speed the pilot would have tried to keep the aircraft airborne for as long as possible to avoid crashing into a populated area, this would have drastically increased the rate of descent and decreased time they had to eject once they were inside the walls of the airport. In my opinion the aircraft might have crashed short of the runway.

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## salman-1

The second one crashed into the Arabian Sea, generally caused known of Pilots unconscious ness, due to some delusions syndrome .

It was not revealed by PAF, as of those days Mynamar deal was being finalised

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## Tps43

Windjammer said:


> Apparently after completing it's mission as the aircraft was returning to base, there was a fire on board, the pilots stayed with the aircraft as it was flying over a built up area and while making an emergency landing, it disintegrated.


Flg off israr was of AD? What was he doing in fighter jet?

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## Windjammer

tps77 said:


> Flg off israr was of AD? What was he doing in fighter jet?


It was an on-going cross training program which includes a 3-month stay in a fighter squadron by the Air Defence Controllers. It is rounded off with a familiarisation sortie in a fighter. Sadly his first ever sortie became his last.

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## Tps43

Windjammer said:


> It was an on-going cross training program which includes a 3-month stay in a fighter squadron by the Air Defence Controllers. It is rounded off with a familiarisation sortie in a fighter. Sadly his first ever sortie became his last.


So sad, I think this kind of programs started in recent years ?

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## razgriz19

Sinnerman108 said:


> The PGs need to go, as soon as possible !


Its not the aircraft, its the men on the ground or behind the machine that cause majority of crashes


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## MastanKhan

razgriz19 said:


> Its not the aircraft, its the men on the ground or behind the machine that cause majority of crashes



Hi,

Please expand on it a little bit---.

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## Sinnerman108

razgriz19 said:


> Its not the aircraft, its the men on the ground or behind the machine that cause majority of crashes



now that is sad !
overall collapse of education system

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## shawn52

Ohhh Sad News


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## Clairvoyant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Please expand on it a little bit---.


The plane crashed because of pilot error,hope this helps.


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## khanasifm

Imad Afridi said:


> The plane crashed because of pilot error,hope this helps.




??if it was on fire then how come pilot error?? if the fire started due to pilot error than its a diff story

Not sure what it means??

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## undercover JIX

I wanted to say since yesterday but was waiting for some senior member say it.

Please do not keep commenting on this thread, as anytime we see it come up Dil doobjata hai kay PAF Aircraft Crash (Allah na karay). so please, I do not know I am right or wrong but this is how i feel.

Maafi chahta hoon agar ghalat baat kar di ho.

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## Danishwer

Yesterday means dated Thursday 13 September, at around 5 o clock , I have seen huge smoke on PNS Mehran/PAF Base Faisal runway side

But thers is no news about this either Fire /crash accident, the smoke was huge,

Any body knows about this incident/accident???


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## Danish saleem

undercover JIX said:


> I wanted to say since yesterday but was waiting for some senior member say it.
> 
> Please do not keep commenting on this thread, as anytime we see it come up Dil doobjata hai kay PAF Aircraft Crash (Allah na karay). so please, I do not know I am right or wrong but this is how i feel.
> 
> Maafi chahta hoon agar ghalat baat kar di ho.



Son, never run from realities of life.


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## undercover JIX

Danish saleem said:


> Son, never run from realities of life.


Theek hai baba ji, samajhney ki baat hai, jis ko aa jai.


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## SALMI

If any body can share the pics of Squadron Leader Mazhar Warsi shaheed and Squadron Leader Shahab Nawaz Shaheed. I will be thankful


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## khanasifm

Danishwer said:


> Yesterday means dated Thursday 13 September, at around 5 o clock , I have seen huge smoke on PNS Mehran/PAF Base Faisal runway side
> 
> But thers is no news about this either Fire /crash accident, the smoke was huge,
> 
> Any body knows about this incident/accident???



I guess a fire fighting drill  no need to speculate

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## hassan1




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## Dazzler

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 501851



Crashing them left and right. Any left or all totalled?

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## GriffinsRule

Read in an interview that Pakistan lost a some due to not buying enough support equipment for them to keep them flying at extended ranges or something and they crashed upon losing connection to the ground stations.


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## Safriz

The PAF morons need to train their UAV pilots better or stop using these assets.
If this is their performance in peace time that they are crashing these UAVs left right and center, what will they do in war time?

Third Falco UAV crash this year.
Pathetic performance by Pakistan air force. They should either train their Drone pilots better or stop abusing these national assets as these are not toys.
If this is Pakistani drone pilots' performance in peace time , what will they do in war time?
Falco is one of the most sophisticated Drone in Pakistan's arsenal and they are crashing it left right and centre. People crash less toy drones than PAF's crashing their war Drone

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## Dazzler

شاھین میزایل said:


> The PAF morons need to train their UAV pilots better or stop using these assets.
> If this is their performance in peace time that they are crashing these UAVs left right and center, what will they do in war time?
> 
> Third Falco UAV crash this year.
> Pathetic performance by Pakistan air force. They should either train their Drone pilots better or stop abusing these national assets as these are not toys.
> If this is Pakistani drone pilots' performance in peace time , what will they do in war time?
> Falco is one of the most sophisticated Drone in Pakistan's arsenal and they are crashing it left right and centre. People crash less toy drones than PAF's crashing their war Drone



Just some minor damage. Sigh!

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## Safriz

Dazzler said:


> Just some minor damage. Sigh!








I am just wondering that is there a signal jamming going on? These drones need pilot signal for guided flying and for autonomous flying they need GPS.. Both can be jammed.

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## Chimgathar

These drones seem quite old


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## SQ8

Dazzler said:


> Just some minor damage. Sigh!


Considering that the MUCH more sophisticated Predators crash much much more frequently despite having more safety systems, you would think ill-informed judgemental posts would be less.

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## araz

Oscar said:


> Considering that the MUCH more sophisticated Predators crash much much more frequently despite having more safety systems, you would think ill-informed judgemental posts would be less.


There is a brilliant post from@Bilal Khan777 which in my view explains the inherent problems. The predator was designed for colder climates and when brought out in the hotter environment experienced difficulties and hence the crashes. He extrapolated that since the Chinese copied the design from the Predator, the inherent problems remain accounting for the crashes. I wonder if we have the same problem evewn though the falcos are sourced else where, or the problem of loss of contact at extreme ranges.
A

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## JamD

araz said:


> There is a brilliant post from@Bilal Khan777 which in my view explains the inherent problems. The predator was designed for colder climates and when brought out in the hotter environment experienced difficulties and hence the crashes. He extrapolated that since the Chinese copied the design from the Predator, the inherent problems remain accounting for the crashes. I wonder if we have the same problem evewn though the falcos are sourced else where, or the problem of loss of contact at extreme ranges.
> A


I think its much simpler than that. At the risk of sounding extreme, UAVs should have a poorer record than manned aircraft. The reason UAVs are cheaper to manufacture and operate is because they are designed and built to much laxer standards than let's say a manned fighter jet. Removing the pilot but keeping all the redundancies will make UAVs much less affordable and ultimately pointless.

Yes, ideally you'd want no crashes, but there are always failures and there's a certain level of acceptance of these failures with UAVs.

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## Windjammer

A PAF F-7 has crashed in Mastoung during a training exercise.
Hope and pray the pilot is safe.


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## undercover JIX

Windjammer said:


> A PAF F-7 has crashed in Mastoung during a training exercise.
> Hope and pray the pilot is safe.


Allah Reham karay, any news link/pics


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## Windjammer

کوئٹہ: مستونگ کے علاقے کھڈ کوچہ فاروق آباد میں پاک فضائیہ کا تربیتی طیارہ گر کر تباہ حادثہ میں تربیتی طیارے کے پائلٹ فلائیٹ لیفٹننٹ طاہر شہید ریسکیو ٹیمیں موقع پر پہنچ گئیں، امدادی سرگرمیاں شروع


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## Maxpane

RIP we lost a precious life

we have to replace f 7s

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## The Accountant

Why most of the time pilots don't survive ... is the ejection system faulty ?

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## third eye

The Accountant said:


> Why most of the time pilots don't survive ... is the ejection system faulty ?


Most pilots attempt to recover the aircraft till the very end


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## Riz

third eye said:


> Most pilots attempt to recover the aircraft till the very end


This is not good.. RIP brave heart . Red salute to this young man who sacrifice his life for us


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## CriticalThought

Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Raji'oon.


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## Salza

third eye said:


> Most pilots attempt to recover the aircraft till the very end



That's stupidity. 

There shouldn't be any effort to save any 3rd generation plane for e.g F7s,Mirages,Mig 21s etc

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## HariPrasad

The Accountant said:


> Why most of the time pilots don't survive ... is the ejection system faulty ?



We halted tejas' flight for nearly 3 months to get ejection timing reduced. It was only after we got it right, we resumed testing. This is an important issue often ignored. If data suggest that more pilot are killed due to inabilty to eject in time, the concern should be addressed. Pilot's life is very important.

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## Abu Zarrar

Windjammer said:


> کوئٹہ: مستونگ کے علاقے کھڈ کوچہ فاروق آباد میں پاک فضائیہ کا تربیتی طیارہ گر کر تباہ حادثہ میں تربیتی طیارے کے پائلٹ فلائیٹ لیفٹننٹ طاہر شہید ریسکیو ٹیمیں موقع پر پہنچ گئیں، امدادی سرگرمیاں شروع


إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


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## Windjammer

Sometimes due to the altitude and speed, its too late to eject, however in this case the pilot did seem to eject but looks as the chute never fully deployed.

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## NeonNinja

Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Raji'oon


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## Windjammer

اے فنا عشق کے دستور ___ تجھے کیا معلوم عشق میں دل ہی نہیں سر بھی دیے جاتے ہیں

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## third eye

Salza said:


> That's stupidity.
> 
> There shouldn't be any effort to save any 3rd generation plane for e.g F7s,Mirages,Mig 21s etc


To a pilot / tank driver or for that matter any combatant his weapon system is dearer than his life, the vintage or type is of no consequence.

Ask a Gunner how he loves his Guns . The caliber of the Gun does not matter.

Such is the love for a soldier with his equipment

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## Trailer23

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ
May Al' Mighty Allah give strength to his family.

-----------------------------------------------------

It appears that his Ejection Seat Shoot seems to be deployed, however, he may have Ejected a bit too late. The angle of the Jet may have resulted in his (unfortunate) death.

An Accident Report will most certainly be kept confidential - however, I think its time that the PAF reevaluate their SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) in regard to 'Ejecting' at a certain altitude if the Equipment is unrecoverable and/or there is no imminent danger to lives on ground.

Its just sad...he seemed so young.

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## ghazi52

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

What squadron did the pilot/aircraft belong to?


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## messiach

God bless these young souls. F7 turbines should be in the garbage bin. @Windjammer

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## Hell hound

may allah grant you high place in jannah


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## MastanKhan

Trailer23 said:


> إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ
> May Al' Mighty Allah give strength to his family.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> It appears that his Ejection Seat Shoot seems to be deployed, however, he may have Ejected a bit too late. The angle of the Jet may have resulted in his (unfortunate) death.
> 
> An Accident Report will most certainly be kept confidential - however, I think its time that the PAF reevaluate their SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) in regard to 'Ejecting' at a certain altitude if the Equipment is unrecoverable and/or there is no imminent danger to lives on ground.
> 
> Its just sad...he seemed so young.



Hi,

It would be the same old story---. Trying to save the aircraft---but died in vain----.


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## Talon

Logical Pakistani said:


> What squadron did the pilot/aircraft belong to?


Talons

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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> Why most of the time pilots don't survive ... is the ejection system faulty ?



Saving the aircraft---.

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## Jammer

Extremely sad news, may he rest in peace.


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## BRAVO_

RIP .... very tragic new .. 
*machines can be replaced by human cannot be ... *


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## Trailer23

MastanKhan said:


> It would be the same old story---. Trying to save the aircraft---but died in vain----.


I know. Its just that...
I work in a commercial airline and realize that the one advantage Fighter Jets have over Commercial Airliners is that they have an Ejection Seat.

Sadly, if a Airliner goes down - its pretty much lights out for everyone. I don't want to put out stats of survival. Not every incident is the _Miracle over Hudson_.

But if a Jet can't recover at say...400 feet or even 300, than there is just no point sticking around. I know patriotism and the word 'Shaheed' is embedded in these guys from day one, but, the PAF needs to consider that its not just the Aircraft at loss.

Just for the sake of discussion - and not taking anything away from the brave lad who gave his life for a freaking F7, but, PAF should possibly think harder on not just the loss of precious life.

The time and money spent on each GDP is nuts. He could have gone on another equipment (even Transport), but only if he had survived.

Earlier, I saw a pic on one of the other threads of his body. You know what's really sad is that he didn't just perish with the plane. Clearly he ejected, however, stumbled on life threatening injuries that eventually took his life.

He EJECTED !!!

I feel bad for him. He was a kid.
I feel bad for his family. They lost a son/brother.

I love the PAF, but I don't feel bad for them.

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Saving the aircraft---.


But our pilots are much more precious and expensive then these junk f7s

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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> But our pilots are much more precious and expensive then these junk f7s



Hi,

It is about the mentality of Paf that is the problem---save the aircraft at all costs---.


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## Fieldmarshal

Pilot error


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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> I know. Its just that...
> I work in a commercial airline and realize that the one advantage Fighter Jets have over Commercial Airliners is that they have an Ejection Seat.
> 
> Sadly, if a Airliner goes down - its pretty much lights out for everyone. I don't want to put out stats of survival. Not every incident is the _Miracle over Hudson_.
> 
> But if a Jet can't recover at say...400 feet or even 300, than there is just no point sticking around. I know patriotism and the word 'Shaheed' is embedded in these guys from day one, but, the PAF needs to consider that its not just the Aircraft at loss.
> 
> Just for the sake of discussion - and not taking anything away from the brave lad who gave his life for a freaking F7, but, PAF should possibly think harder on not just the loss of precious life.
> 
> The time and money spent on each GDP is nuts. He could have gone on another equipment (even Transport), but only if he had survived.
> 
> Earlier, I saw a pic on one of the other threads of his body. You know what's really sad is that he didn't just perish with the plane. Clearly he ejected, however, stumbled on life threatening injuries that eventually took his life.
> 
> He EJECTED !!!
> 
> I feel bad for him. He was a kid.
> I feel bad for his family. They lost a son/brother.
> 
> I love the PAF, but I don't feel bad for them.


ejected too late..i see alot of pilots eject too late in PAF

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## Incog_nito

PAF should try to discuss with BAF of a possible acquisition of F-7PGs in their Air Force, as they aren't buying JF-17 so selling them F-7PGs would be a good deal for PAF to gain some extra cash. Moreover, this same offer can be made for A-5Cs to Burma & BAF, or any other operator!


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## Humble Analyst

MastanKhan said:


> Saving the aircraft---.


And saving the population


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## araz

IM Ozair said:


> PAF should try to discuss with BAF of a possible acquisition of F-7PGs in their Air Force, as they aren't buying JF-17 so selling them F-7PGs would be a good deal for PAF to gain some extra cash. Moreover, this same offer can be made for A-5Cs to Burma & BAF, or any other operator!


We have this discussion everytime a plane crashes. The PGs have life left in them. The Ps are going as fast as we can replace them and will go when we ramp up block 3 production. We still have 150 planes to replace and the cash outlay for this is huge. So whether we like it or not it will not happen in the next 2-5 years. If things improve we can induct another platform to make life easier but PGs and M3/5 Roses Will remain till we extract the last ounce of juice out of them. We have 20-30 yrs of experience on them and can use them to their maximum capacity. Yes I agree their time is past but our coffers are not allowing us to replace them fast enough.
A

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## hacker J

Hi ,

I hate to say this but stop judging the pilot and the aircraft. Most of the time training aircrafts fly at lower height while practicing ground attack, air manuver or training. They only climb altitude to cruise not train. Now having said that at speeds of more than 700km p h which is normal you don't really get lots of time. It's barely 3-5 seconds when you have to make sure 
1) plane is not airworthy (they try to save it)
2) no population is below
3) pilot are on right altitude to eject
4) maintain balance to eject the seat

And they succeed and not succeed at times. It should not be judged rather investigated and made sure that rest of aircrafts are safer from these learnings.
Don't judge me by my flag, it's how it we should think.

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## litman

hacker J said:


> Hi ,
> 
> I hate to say this but stop judging the pilot and the aircraft. Most of the time training aircrafts fly at lower height while practicing ground attack, air manuver or training. They only climb altitude to cruise not train. Now having said that at speeds of more than 700km p h which is normal you don't really get lots of time. It's barely 3-5 seconds when you have to make sure
> 1) plane is not airworthy (they try to save it)
> 2) no population is below
> 3) pilot are on right altitude to eject
> 4) maintain balance to eject the seat
> 
> And they succeed and not succeed at times. It should not be judged rather investigated and made sure that rest of aircrafts are safer from these learnings.
> Don't judge me by my flag, it's how it we should think.


you are right but older air crafts with poor maintenance do have impact on the crash rate of air crafts. both the indian and pakistani air forces have this issue. most o the variants of mig 21/ f-7 and mirage 3/5 are the air crafts of museums but we are flying them because of corrupt politicians dont spare much for the defense forces or for national development. this is also a bitter reality.


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## Zee-shaun

Please take the discussion to appropriate thread. This manhoos thread is to duscuss PAF crashes only and nobody wants to see it updated every time we refresh the page.

Thanks

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## GriffinsRule

Pakistan Army Mushshak crash landed today near Gujranwala. Both pilots are okay.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1511748/p...y-trainer-aircraft-crash-lands-near-wazirabad

A Mushshak trainer aircraft belonging to the Army Aviation crash-landed in a paddy field near Wazirabad in Punjab's Gujranwala district on Saturday, security and rescue sources said.

Both the pilots remained safe in the incident.

According to sources, the two-seater aircraft had taken off from Rahwali Cantt for a training mission, with Capt Ahmad and an instructor on board.

The plane developed a technical fault while flying over Dilawar Cheema near river Chenab, forcing the pilots to make a crash-landing in a paddy field.

Security officials and Rescue 1122 personnel reached the site soon after the incident.

The Mushshak basic trainer is a light-weight, single-engine aircraft. It can operate from any short unprepared strip and is ideal for basic flight training, instrument flying, aerobatics, stalls and deliberate spins, night flying, navigation flying and formation flying.

The aircraft, which has a structure life of 9,500 hours, was developed keeping flexibility in mind ─ it covers both army cooperation and primary flying training.


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## Village life

جب بھی اِس تھریڈ کو ایکٹو دیکھتا ہوں دل بُجھ سا جاتا ہے،اور دعا ہوتی ہے کہ یا اللہ خیر فرمانا،

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## Windjammer

Thankfully both pilots survived any serious injury.

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## Hassan Guy

bruh, when ever this thread pops up in my alert tab I get a mini heart attack


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## NeonNinja

Both pilots are safe.


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## Riz

Windjammer said:


> Thankfully both pilots survived any serious injury.


No ejection seats in mushaq??


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## CHI RULES

litman said:


> you are right but older air crafts with poor maintenance do have impact on the crash rate of air crafts. both the indian and pakistani air forces have this issue. most o the variants of mig 21/ f-7 and mirage 3/5 are the air crafts of museums but we are flying them because of corrupt politicians dont spare much for the defense forces or for national development. this is also a bitter reality.


Sir despite being old Mirage 5 so far has fine safety record may be we need to invest more in new ejection/safety measures in case of old Mirrages/F7s. Can any one compare the ejection/safety measures in case of Mirrages/F7s with latest jets it shall be valuable addition as we cannot retire them in near future.


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## fatman17

CHI RULES said:


> Sir despite being old Mirage 5 so far has fine safety record may be we need to invest more in new ejection/safety measures in case of old Mirrages/F7s. Can any one compare the ejection/safety measures in case of Mirrages/F7s with latest jets it shall be valuable addition as we cannot retire them in near future.


All the investments have been made in the ROSE program and purchasing old mirages from other airforces to ensure supply of engines and spares. The remaining mirages will eventually be replaced by the JF17 program.


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## Talon

Unconfirmed news :
FT-7 crashed in Mianwali.Both pilots embraced martyrdom.


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## Pinnacle

Sad news


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## Maxpane

worst news


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## Cool_Soldier

So sad news.
RIP
PAF must focus on training jets' purchase as FT-7 has already completed its life.
Life of each soldier is very much important.


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## SD 10

Hodor said:


> Unconfirmed news :
> FT-7 crashed in Mianwali.Both pilots embraced martyrdom.


RIP comrades.


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## Amigator

No News in Mainstream Media about it. OP also mentioned it Unconfirmed News. Let's hope it's not happened.


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## Talon

SL Haris bin Khalid 122 GDP
FO Ibaad 141 GDP
both shaheed.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Hodor said:


> SL Haris bin Khalid 122 GDP
> FO Ibaad 141 GDP
> both shaheed.
> View attachment 598400


RIP Both

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## Imran Khan

RIP 


This junk must be stopped now mirages and f7s killed more pilots then anything else

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## StormBreaker

Hodor said:


> SL Haris bin Khalid 122 GDP
> FO Ibaad 141 GDP
> both shaheed.
> View attachment 598400


Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi rajioon

Wtf is FT-7 still going in air ?



Hodor said:


> SL Haris bin Khalid 122 GDP
> FO Ibaad 141 GDP
> both shaheed.
> View attachment 598400


Reason of crash ??

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## Pakistani Fighter

Imran Khan said:


> RIP
> 
> 
> This junk must be stopped now mirages and f7s killed more pilots then anything else


We are short of fighter jets


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## sohail.ishaque

Amigator said:


> No News in Mainstream Media about it. OP also mentioned it Unconfirmed News. Let's hope it's not happened.


Its confirmed. I just saw the video of it by a mobile camera.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214458988735221761


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## GriffinsRule

Whats the point of MB seats if theres no ejection?


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## Maxpane

pilots shold eject . there should be a strict rule in paf


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## fatman17

Hodor said:


> SL Haris bin Khalid 122 GDP
> FO Ibaad 141 GDP
> both shaheed.
> View attachment 598400


RIP brave soldiers

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## Talon

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1305805042959781


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## Raj-Hindustani

RIP..


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## Tps43

Hodor said:


> SL Haris bin Khalid 122 GDP
> FO Ibaad 141 GDP
> both shaheed.
> View attachment 598400


May their souls rest in peace Ameen

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## PakShaheen79

Inna Lillah hi wa Inna Alihe Rajioon.


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## Riz

Why our pilots die in almost every crash??? our control towers must force them to eject.. This is very sad and very bad exercise.. We are wasting our pilots regularly.. RIP brothers

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## BHarwana

Inna Lillah hi wa Inna Alihe Rajioon.


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## Haris Ali2140

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


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## Talon

Young soul

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## The Eagle

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ

Lost of young souls. RIP brothers. A sad news to hear about in the morning. Farewell brothers.

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## HRK

rest in peace


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## Maxpane

Rest inPeace


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## F86 Saber

Is this another case of pilots trying to salvage the plane till the end or trying to avoid crashing on population? Why don't they eject on first sight of trouble like the IAF pilots do? Of all the IAF fighter jets that crashed last year i don't think they lost a single pilot....

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## aliyusuf

*إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ*
May Allah Grant the departed souls ascension to Jannah.
Ameen

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## KhanBaba2

RIP

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## Zayan

Why don't they ejected?
We should save our boys their should be a strict policy
This junk should be retired
Sad day

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

We do have a couple of FT-7's which still have Chinese ejection seats which have a 130 or something knots limit. Or there might've been a maintenance issue with the MB seats or pilots could've suffered spatial disorientation. Not always as simple as pulling a handle and bailing out unfortunately.


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## AMRAAM

An aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed while on a routine operational training mission crashed near Mianwali, PAF reported on Tuesday.






Both pilots, Squadron Leader Haris bin Khalid and Flying Officer Ibaadur Rehman, aboard the plane lost their lives in the crash.

A board of inquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1526820/p...ssion-crashes-near-mianwali-2-pilots-martyred


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## StormBreaker

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> We do have a couple of FT-7's which still have Chinese ejection seats which have a 130 or something knots limit. Or there might've been a maintenance issue with the MB seats or pilots could've suffered spatial disorientation. Not always as simple as pulling a handle and bailing out unfortunately.


How does dual election work? Is it a single pull by either of the cords of 2 seats or both are independent ? Since ejection means breaking through the canopy so does it require same timings for both ?
@Hodor


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## AMRAAM

AMRAAM said:


> An aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed while on a routine operational training mission crashed near Mianwali, PAF reported on Tuesday.
> 
> View attachment 598428
> 
> Both pilots, Squadron Leader Haris bin Khalid and Flying Officer Ibaadur Rehman, aboard the plane lost their lives in the crash.
> 
> A board of inquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident.
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1526820/p...ssion-crashes-near-mianwali-2-pilots-martyred



A sad incident and a great loss. May both of the departing souls rest in peace.

PAC should pacify the production of JFT-B so that these old machines can be replaced as quickly as possible.

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## Pakistani Fighter

AMRAAM said:


> A sad incident and a great loss. May both of the departing souls rest in peace.
> 
> PAC should pacify the production of JFT-B so that these old machines can be replaced as quickly as possible.


We dont have enough fighters of we replace Mirages and F 7s. India has recently retired Mig 27. India is building more SU 30s, getting more Mig 29s, getting Rafales and building more Tejas. We are only going to replace them with only JF 17s. Thats so unfortunate from our side

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## Hiraa

Inna Lillahi Wa inna ilahyi rajioun.

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## AMRAAM

What is the role of F-7s and F-7ps in modern-day warfare? Do they bring anything good on the table or will be just sitting ducks in an encounter with a 4th gen BVR capable fighter?

Can someone please shed some light on the role of F-7s in PAF?

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## Haris Ali2140

Hey anyone up for trolling:



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214468793033871360

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214471326221524992
@PAKISTANFOREVER @StormBreaker


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Salute to Shuhada . F7 and F7Ps Should be replaced as soon as possible .

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## graphican

إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّ إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ‎

News doesn't mention which aircraft. How are we commenting that it is F-7?

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## 313ghazi

We need to replace this old junk as a matter of priority. 2 lives lost today which could have been avoided.


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## SIPRA



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## Vortex

إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّ إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

May Allah give sabr and strength to the families.

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## skyshadow

إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّ إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

RIP 

alot of ppl going to be martyred to next few days good for them we do not have that honor to join them

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## Windjammer

Damn news breaks the heart.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> Salute to Shuhada . F7 and F7Ps Should be replaced as soon as possible .


We need to Upgrade our Old F 16s too


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## 313ghazi

AMRAAM said:


> What is the role of F-7s and F-7ps in modern-day warfare? Do they bring anything good on the table or will be just sitting ducks in an encounter with a 4th gen BVR capable fighter?
> 
> Can someone please shed some light on the role of F-7s in PAF?



I suspect they still fly them because we don't have replacement aircraft yet. You might as well have trained pilots who can fly older jets, rather than no trained pilots at all. In terms of conflict, the IAF still operates plenty of old junk too, the Mig-21 and Jaguars. Also in conflict they could be used to do bombing runs in low intensity areas. It's limited, but it's better than nothing. Once these are replaced with JF-17's our capabilities will increase massively.

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## Windjammer



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## NeptuneShadow

StormBreaker said:


> How does dual election work? Is it a single pull by either of the cords of 2 seats or both are independent ? Since ejection means breaking through the canopy so does it require same timings for both ?
> @Hodor



both pilots have their own ejection handle. Canopy explosive charges release canopy without waiting for the second pilot handle.

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## WarKa DaNG

إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّ إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ


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## StormBreaker

Source : Twitter


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## Rashid Mahmood

انا للہ وانا الیہ راجعون

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## NeptuneShadow

StormBreaker said:


> View attachment 598435
> View attachment 598436
> View attachment 598437
> 
> 
> Source : Twitter


It seems pilots ejected but the impact was severe. May Allah bless shaheeds. Ameen.

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## AMRAAM

313ghazi said:


> I suspect they still fly them because we don't have replacement aircraft yet. You might as well have trained pilots who can fly older jets, rather than no trained pilots at all. In terms of conflict, the IAF still operates plenty of old junk too, the Mig-21 and Jaguars. Also in conflict they could be used to do bombing runs in low intensity areas. It's limited, but it's better than nothing. Once these are replaced with JF-17's our capabilities will increase massively.



Thats what I was thinking too that they are there just to cover numbers and will be replaced as soon as we have a replacement option.



Windjammer said:


>



So sad. May his soul rest in peace.


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## graphican

Hodor said:


> Young soul
> 
> View attachment 598420



Rest in Peace brother. May your service to Nation is remembered with honour and respect forever.

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## Windjammer



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## Big Tank

RIP Heroes..


Why didn't they eject?


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## Death Professor

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Hey anyone up for trolling:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214472589860433922
> [/USER]



You should remove this link, a randian replied with a hashtag.

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## StormBreaker

NeptuneShadow said:


> It seems pilots ejected but the impact was severe. May Allah bless shaheeds. Ameen.


The impact on the right side of helmet indicates that they failed to eject, the helmet is all messed up but there are apparently no signs on top of it which indicates no ejection and hence direct impact from right side to the ground/crash.

I could still be wrong, could be that he managed to eject but parachute issues and direct fall...


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## Windjammer

R.I.P Brave Warrior. 
Squadron Leader Haris Bin Khalid The Fallen Hero Who Embraced Martyrdom In An Unfortunate Crash Of F7

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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> R.I.P Brave Warrior.
> Squadron Leader Haris Bin Khalid The Fallen Hero Who Embraced Martyrdom In An Unfortunate Crash Of F7


Seems a decent man,
May Allah give him highest ranks amongst martyrs as well as the Flying Officer Ammad and give sabr to their Families and Make them a source of inspiration for the young cadets, Officers as well as senior officers.

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## Rahil khan

RIP my brothers. It's the most desired ultimate tribute a soldier can give to its motherland. Nation will remain indebted for their sacrifice. May Allah give Sabr and courage to their family, friends and comrades to handle such loss. I guess PAF will seriously consider replacing these old birds with better options.

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## Sine Nomine

إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّ إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ‎
A great loss.


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## Beast

Big Tank said:


> RIP Heroes..
> 
> 
> Why didn't they eject?


Advance jet training is one of the most dangerous sorties. To simulate low level flying penetration. They fly hug the ground and any mishap has no chance of ejection.

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## Vortex

إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّ إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

May Allah give sabr and strength to the families.

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## LeGenD

إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّ إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

Very sad news.


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## Pakistani sipahi

AMRAAM said:


> What is the role of F-7s and F-7ps in modern-day warfare? Do they bring anything good on the table or will be just sitting ducks in an encounter with a 4th gen BVR capable fighter?
> 
> Can someone please shed some light on the role of F-7s in PAF?



I am not an expert but one thing I know that distances between Pakistani and Indian forward airbases are very less , so in this case BVR can be ruled out and these toys can prove handy in a war situation when you are in a dire need of fighters.

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## Talon

NeptuneShadow said:


> It seems pilots ejected but the impact was severe. May Allah bless shaheeds. Ameen.


Nope, ejection seats failed to work.


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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Nope, ejection seats failed to work.



They Made Sure That People Of Jhabri Mianwali Are Safe before attempting to eject.

The damn FT-7 was a 20-year-old example......but the loss of young lives is irreplaceable.

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## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214513268561190912
@AMRAAM

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## AMRAAM

Haris Ali2140 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214513268561190912
> @AMRAAM



A great loss indeed.

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## nomi007

very sad
hope paf will replace these junks as soon as possible.


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## wali87

Why the hell don’t our boys eject! When they know that something has gone wrong with a plane that’s not only old but is worth nothing close to the value of their lives. The plane can be replaced but it takes years to train a new pilot. Not to mention the irreplaceable loss to the family of the pilot.

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## TNT

Very sad news, no one carws abt the plane but the loss of a sqn leader and FO is very sad. Is it confirmed that the plane was F7?

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## araz

Hodor said:


> SL Haris bin Khalid 122 GDP
> FO Ibaad 141 GDP
> both shaheed.
> View attachment 598400


Inna lillahe wa inna elaihe rajeoun. Rest in peace broothers.
A


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## undercover JIX

Allah Shuhadaa kay darjaat buland karay aur sabr for families and hidayat for people in Charge.

@waz @Arsalan @Dubious @The Eagle need to move this thread to appropriate sticky thread. Thanks

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## R Wing

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> We dont have enough fighters of we replace Mirages and F 7s. India has recently retired Mig 27. India is building more SU 30s, getting more Mig 29s, getting Rafales and building more Tejas. We are only going to replace them with only JF 17s. Thats so unfortunate from our side



It's a matter of budget, unfortunately. Pathetic rulers - both civ and mil - have destroyed this country.

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## Areesh

Rip 


PAF seriousky needs to replace these f7 and mirage asap. The more we use the more we put our boys life in jeopardy

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## StormBreaker

Rahil khan said:


> RIP my brothers. It's the most desired ultimate tribute a soldier can give to its motherland. Nation will remain indebted for their sacrifice. May Allah give Sabr and courage to their family, friends and comrades to handle such loss. I guess PAF will seriously consider replacing these old birds with better options.


I really get angry when these incidents happen.

PAF being a highly responsible and well structured and disciplined organization, its leaders and the Acquisition guys should put these sorts of situations as emergency and throw away these aircrafts while acquiring new birds for the role.

Government is shit if it doesn’t release funds for basic needs of defence arena.

A country like Pakistan without a powerful defence is just another land waiting to be ruled by others !!!! So defence must be the top priority as well as funds with respect to it.

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## Rusty

RIP


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## ARMalik

RIP


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## POPEYE-Sailor

May ALLAH bless their souls. PAF should remove all junk aircraft from their field specially F-7TP and F-7P.

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## loanranger

wali87 said:


> Why the hell don’t our boys eject! When they know that something has gone wrong with a plane that’s not only old but is worth nothing close to the value of their lives. The plane can be replaced but it takes years to train a new pilot. Not to mention the irreplaceable loss to the family of the pilot.


Only time will tell what happened. Sometimes you don't have time to eject. Othertimes you plan to eject after trying to save aircraft but in the process the escape window is gone.

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## AMRAAM

loanranger said:


> Only time will tell what happened. Sometimes you don't have time to eject. Othertimes you plan to eject after trying to save aircraft but in the process the escape window is gone.


Exactly. Investigations will reveal the real reason but still PAF should encourage and focus on the pilot safety first.

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## SecularNationalist

And none of them managed to eject?


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## Hayreddin




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## Signalian

F-7 and it’s variants were acquired in 90’s. Mirages are older.


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## MystryMan

RIP.


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## Zulfiqar

Sqd Ldr Haris's namaz e jenaza will be tomorrow at PAF base Nur Khan at 14:30 Hours.

May ALLAH bless their souls.

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

@Syed Hammad Ahmed 
Our older F16s are modified by TAI in 2009-2014 ( approx 41 fighters were modefied , upgraded u can search on google ) Only 13 or 14 acquired from Jordon are not modified ( may be modified by Jordon or in good condition for now ) even Mirages are well maintained ( MRF in Kamra e.t.c ) but F7T , F7P should be retired as soon as possible because we are losing V V V Precious lives and Indians are also in process of retiring old fighters even abondning the Squadrons ( for now ) .

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## Raider 21

StormBreaker said:


> I really get angry when these incidents happen.
> 
> PAF being a highly responsible and well structured and disciplined organization, its leaders and the Acquisition guys should put these sorts of situations as emergency and throw away these aircrafts while acquiring new birds for the role.
> 
> Government is shit if it doesn’t release funds for basic needs of defence arena.
> 
> A country like Pakistan without a powerful defence is just another land waiting to be ruled by others !!!! So defence must be the top priority as well as funds with respect to it.


Has an investigation report been released regarding if it was a technical malfunction. Or it could've been the bitter pill to swallow involving major poor airmanship error. If this was a Viper or Thunder, I wonder if the same analysis would have been applied here on PDF.

Back in the 90s the same was being said for F-16s, even though the caliber of pilots converting to them were far higher and more competitive than today's intake.

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## air marshal

RIP


----------



## ghazi52

Rest in Peace!
May Allah bless them, Ameen.


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## Defense Reader

اناللہ وانا الیہ راجعون


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## StormBreaker

Knuckles said:


> Has an investigation report been released regarding if it was a technical malfunction. Or it could've been the bitter pill to swallow involving major poor airmanship error. If this was a Viper or Thunder, I wonder if the same analysis would have been applied here on PDF.
> 
> Back in the 90s the same was being said for F-16s, even though the caliber of pilots converting to them were far higher and more competitive than today's intake.


Not until there is a report, can we make conclusions.

But,

It’s been a while since we heard of any FT-7 crash, possibilities are higher in the technical failure end than human error although human error is also much possible.

All we can do is wait and see


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## baqai

اناللہ وانا الیہ راجعون

everytime i see this thread up in new posts my heart skips a beat

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## Raider 21

StormBreaker said:


> Not until there is a report, can we make conclusions.
> 
> But,
> 
> It’s been a while since we heard of any FT-7 crash, possibilities are higher in the technical failure end than human error although human error is also much possible.
> 
> All we can do is wait and see


An FT-7PG crashed just over a year ago, cause was pilot error. Human error is very much possible as much as technical failures, never forget that. And no I disagree, those are meaningless conclusions unless proven otherwise.

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## Nomad40

baqai said:


> اناللہ وانا الیہ راجعون
> 
> everytime i see this thread up in new posts my heart skips a beat


same boat



Knuckles said:


> An FT-7PG crashed just over a year ago, cause was pilot error. Human error is very much possible as much as technical failures, never forget that. And no I disagree, those are meaningless conclusions unless proven otherwise.


Human error is at the top of the list & than weather. If any actual pilots here then back me up.

I think the were too low and maybe did eject, I dont know but it seems like a mix of pilot error and The stupid engine on this is prone to stalls, low altitude. MY BOYSاناللہ وانا الیہ راجعون


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## GumNaam

Hodor said:


> SL Haris bin Khalid 122 GDP
> FO Ibaad 141 GDP
> both shaheed.
> View attachment 598400


INNA LILLA HI WA INNA ILAYHI RAJI'OON...

Our air warriors NEVER give up on saving the peoples on the ground and will always risk their lives by taking the aircraft far away from populated areas...

RIP in Allah's shadow brothers.

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## Dr Ch Bilal Amjad

Tps43 said:


> May their souls rest in peace Ameen


إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

11 FT-7's and a staggering 32 F-7P/PG's have been written off in the last 20 years.
Considering these aircraft are post 1980's, nowhere near as old as some of our Mirages, there's something seriously wrong, either we're overworking these machines, there's some sort of shortcoming in the maintenance or there's something wrong with these Chinese machines. Whatever the reason is the number priority should be getting rid of these platforms especially the F-7P/FT-7P. Hopefully the new LIFT squadron and all remaining OCU's get a new platform wether it be the Thunder B or otherwise ASAP.

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## Windjammer

Although, today's loss is very tragic and irreplaceable as far as the brave pilots are concerned, however am i right in saying that this was the first PAF crash in the last 12 months, since last crash again an F-7 recorded on these pages seems to be in January 2019.
@Hodor @Knuckles

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## ziaulislam

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> 11 FT-7's and a staggering 32 F-7P/PG's have been written off in the last 10 years.
> Considering these aircraft are post 1980's, nowhere near as old as some of our Mirages, there's something seriously wrong, either we're overworking these machines, there's some sort of shortcoming in the maintenance or there's something wrong with these Chinese machines. Whatever the reason is the number priority should be getting rid of these platforms especially the F-7P/FT-7P. Hopefully the new LIFT squadron and all remaining OCU's get a new platform wether it be the Thunder B or otherwise ASAP.


F7s life is over(rated at 20yrs) while PGs are on their last legs
So doesnt matter..
Infact some mirages might be in better shape


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## airomerix

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> 11 FT-7's and a staggering 32 F-7P/PG's have been written off in the last 10 years.
> Considering these aircraft are post 1980's, nowhere near as old as some of our Mirages, there's something seriously wrong, either we're overworking these machines, there's some sort of shortcoming in the maintenance or there's something wrong with these Chinese machines. Whatever the reason is the number priority should be getting rid of these platforms especially the F-7P/FT-7P. Hopefully the new LIFT squadron and all remaining OCU's get a new platform wether it be the Thunder B or otherwise ASAP.



Majority of these losses attribute to pilot error. The simple reason is F-7 is an introductory platform in PAF. The jump between K-8 and F-7 is a big one. Earlier we had FT-5's/FT-6's which was somewhat a more suitable platform to bridge between K-8/T-37s to F-7s. 

Indian Air Force has this problem for years. Their pilots were transitioned from Hawk's/Kiran's to Mig 21s and resultantly we had to devise a new nickname "flying coffin's". Multiply it by poor maintenance. We have losses.

Mig 21/F-7 is a fast interceptor. Thus requires a degree of competence to fly which some of the newer pilots remain deficient in acquiring.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

For the sake of a Crescent O LORD what suns are setting in....

A Muslim warrior and his/her weapons don’t get separated as long as he/she is alive....

May their _Shehadet_ be accepted...

_Sabr-i Jemil_ for their families, PAF and the Pak nation...

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## TsAr

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ

For all those people complaining that why did they not eject? Ejection is not that simple, there are certain parameters that have to be met in order for a successful ejection. Quite a few times pilots managed to eject but were killed instantly because there speed was to high or angle was incorrect. Flying will always remain a dangerous thing no matter how much technology has progressed. May Allah give there families sabar. Brave sons of soil.

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## airomerix

TsAr said:


> إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ
> 
> For all those people complaining that why did they not eject? Ejection is not that simple, there are certain parameters that have to be met in order for a successful ejection. Quite a few times pilots managed to eject but were killed instantly because there speed was to high or angle was incorrect. Flying will always remain a dangerous thing no matter how much technology has progressed. May Allah give there families sabar. Brave sons of soil.



True. 

Mariam Mukhtiar did eject. However, the ejection sequence of FT-7 seats is 15 degree left (front) and 15 degree right (rear). Her aircraft was already at an angle and her 15 degrees meant she would hit the hill with full force. And she did. 

Ejections are fatal at worst and traumatising at best.

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## Windjammer

Apparently just found out that although both pilots ejected but sadly their chutes didn't deploy properly.
However, I was right in the fact that last PAF crash occurred on 23 Jan 2019 in Quetta again involved an F-7.

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## TsAr

Windjammer said:


> Apparently just found out that although both pilots ejected but sadly their chutes didn't deploy properly.
> However, I was right that in the fact that last PAF crash occurred on 23 Jan 2019 in Quetta again involved an F-7.


Possible reason could be that that they were flying very low...


airomerix said:


> True.
> 
> Mariam Mukhtiar did eject. However, the ejection sequence of FT-7 seats is 15 degree left (front) and 15 degree right (rear). Her aircraft was already at an angle and her 15 degrees meant she would hit the hill with full force. And she did.
> 
> Ejections are fatal at worst and traumatising at best.


I was watching a interview of a F-15 pilot who had ejected along with his navigator, the pilot is said to be the only one to have ejected and survived at such high G's force but was severely injured and his navigator instantly died when he came out of the cockpit because of the force of the wind.

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## Windjammer

TsAr said:


> Possible reason could be that that they were flying very low...


Yes, they were flying over a buildup area when the emergency but remained with the aircraft until it cleared the populated part, by then it was too late.


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## Raider 21

TsAr said:


> Possible reason could be that that they were flying very low...
> 
> *I was watching a interview of a F-15 pilot who had ejected along with his navigator, the pilot is said to be the only one to have ejected and survived at such high G's force but was severely injured and his navigator instantly died when he came out of the cockpit because of the force of the wind.*


That was a unique case they ejected angled and while supersonic.


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## mingle

Knuckles said:


> An FT-7PG crashed just over a year ago, cause was pilot error. Human error is very much possible as much as technical failures, never forget that. And no I disagree, those are meaningless conclusions unless proven otherwise.


Time to let these old fellas to go replace them with JF17 B or Armanchi


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## Windjammer



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## mingle

airomerix said:


> True.
> 
> Mariam Mukhtiar did eject. However, the ejection sequence of FT-7 seats is 15 degree left (front) and 15 degree right (rear). Her aircraft was already at an angle and her 15 degrees meant she would hit the hill with full force. And she did.
> 
> Ejections are fatal at worst and traumatising at best.


Any mood of PAF to replace these old jetts hard to maintain mechanical wise also hard to fly for ruke new Era jet trainers a lot easy to fly


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## Jammer

A very tragic day, such is the price our men in uniform pay to defend our nation. May they both rest in eternal peace and may their families find the courage to withstand this earth shattering blow.

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## Foxtrot Delta

Rest in peace.. the price we pay to fly obsolete aircraft with obsolete safety measures.. 

I hope they conclude the techinical faults asap and avoid more lives lost. This is part of life crashes are rare in paf but still there no one is perfect.

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## Yaseen1

jf17 should replace old f7s now


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## Minho

RIP to the pilots, prayers to their families


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## GriffinsRule

Of the 11 FT-7 crashes, seems like only 5 of them had both pilots safely ejecting, other 4 at least 1 pilot died and 3 crashes where both pilots died.
The ranks of the martyred officers gives an indication of who is flying these jets, and points to the lack of a suitable LIFT jet trainer since the retirement of FT-5s. K-8 is a basic subsonic trainer and not exactly suitable for the role.

Flying Officers: 2 x Inj, 3 x Killed
Flight Lieutenants: 1 x Inj, 2 x Killed
Squadron Leaders: 1 x Inj, 2 x Killed
Wing Commanders: 1 x Inj, 1 x Killed
Unknown Rank: 8 x Okay

Still, (11 FT-7 + 52 F-7) crashes since their induction in 1988 in not a very rosy numbers. These crashes are not all attributed to the age of the aircraft of course, since the first couple of crashes happened back in 1992.
Lot of factors can contribute to the crash, including engine troubles, bird hits, structural damage, pilot error, or just complications during take off or landing. At least two crashes happened when the canopy of the aircraft failed that resulted in 2 fatalities.

Even early 4th generation aircraft bring a lot of safety features into aircraft design over the Mig-21/F-7 that increases pilot safety by a lot. Hopefully we will be rid of these aircraft soon as more JF-17B roll off the production lines.

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## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> Of the 11 FT-7 crashes, seems like only 5 of them had both pilots safely ejecting, other 4 at least 1 pilot died and 3 crashes where both pilots died.
> The ranks of the martyred officers gives an indication of who is flying these jets, and points to the lack of a suitable LIFT jet trainer since the retirement of FT-5s. K-8 is a basic subsonic trainer and not exactly suitable for the role.
> 
> Flying Officers: 2 x Inj, 3 x Killed
> Flight Lieutenants: 1 x Inj, 2 x Killed
> Squadron Leaders: 1 x Inj, 2 x Killed
> Wing Commanders: 1 x Inj, 1 x Killed
> Unknown Rank: 8 x Okay
> 
> Still, (11 FT-7 + 52 F-7) crashes since their induction in 1988 in not a very rosy numbers. These crashes are not all attributed to the age of the aircraft of course, since the first couple of crashes happened back in 1992.
> Lot of factors can contribute to the crash, including engine troubles, bird hits, structural damage, pilot error, or just complications during take off or landing. At least two crashes happened when the canopy of the aircraft failed that resulted in 2 fatalities.
> 
> Even early 4th generation aircraft bring a lot of safety features into aircraft design over the Mig-21/F-7 that increases pilot safety by a lot. Hopefully we will be rid of these aircraft soon as more JF-17B roll off the production lines.



Pad had 135 f7s plus another ~60 f7pg 

So total 11+52 out of total inventory has crashed ?? 

So ~63 out of ~195 that’s 32%

What is the source of the numbers ?


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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> Pad had 135 f7s plus another ~60 f7pg
> 
> So total 11+52 out of total inventory has crashed ??
> 
> So ~63 out of ~195 that’s 32%
> 
> What is the source of the numbers ?


Sources are newspapers, websites, magazines etc etc


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## Windjammer

Maarkhoor said:


> @Windjammer


Dude I have seen this and more, please delete the video as it's very painful for friends and family to see all this.
@Maarkhoor

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## Raider 21

mingle said:


> Time to let these old fellas to go replace them with JF17 B or Armanchi


Aermacchi or T-50s would be great. JF-17B is the most obvious choice. However, when Vipers were crashing at a high rate in the 90s they were being called junk as well. Believe it or not F-7 is the most stable jet in the inventory, however it can become unforgiving if not carefully aware. We still don't know if it was a technical malfunction or pilot error.

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## Gryphon

Need dedicated platform for LIFT, not these F-7/FT-7P's.



Knuckles said:


> Aermacchi or T-50s would be great. *JF-17B is the most obvious choice.* However, when Vipers were crashing at a high rate in the 90s they were being called junk as well. Believe it or not F-7 is the most stable jet in the inventory, however it can become unforgiving if not carefully aware. We still don't know if it was a technical malfunction or pilot error.



Imagine a soon-to-be fighter pilot crashing a JF-17B Block 2 which has undergone an expensive MLU incl. AESA rdr in future. Who will be pissed off?

Is that the reason PAF says JF-17B is no LIFT and sends RFI's to Leonardo, Hongdu, etc?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> Need dedicated platform for LIFT, not these F-7/FT-7P's.
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine a soon-to-be fighter pilot crashing a JF-17B Block 2 which has undergone an expensive MLU incl. AESA rdr in future. Who will be pissed off?
> 
> Is that the reason PAF says JF-17B is no LIFT and sends RFI's to Leonardo, Hongdu, etc?


Yep. The CAS said JF-17B is for JF-17 OCU, but there needs to be a LIFT to serve as a bridge between the K-8 (FCU) and JF-17 (OCU). Basically, the LIFT will takeover the intermediary step the FT-7P/PG are handling today.

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## Haris Ali2140

Gryphon said:


> Need dedicated platform for LIFT, not these F-7/FT-7P's.
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine a soon-to-be fighter pilot crashing a JF-17B Block 2 which has undergone an expensive MLU incl. AESA rdr in future. Who will be pissed off?
> 
> Is that the reason PAF says JF-17B is no LIFT and sends RFI's to Leonardo, Hongdu, etc?


What about TAI Hurjet???
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Raider 21

Gryphon said:


> Need dedicated platform for LIFT, not these F-7/FT-7P's.
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine a soon-to-be fighter pilot crashing a JF-17B Block 2 which has undergone an expensive MLU incl. AESA rdr in future. Who will be pissed off?
> 
> Is that the reason PAF says JF-17B is no LIFT and sends RFI's to Leonardo, Hongdu, etc?


A few used Hawks will do the trick. It will close the gap between K-8s and fighters. I'm not talking about the 100 series. But the 50s and 60s ones. Very reliable and an excellent trainer.

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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. The CAS said JF-17B is for JF-17 OCU, but there needs to be a LIFT to serve as a bridge between the K-8 (FCU) and JF-17 (OCU). Basically, the LIFT will takeover the intermediary step the FT-7P/PG are handling today.


What options do we have ?
L-5 ? Having 24 is enough right?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What about TAI Hurjet???
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)





StormBreaker said:


> What options do we have ?
> L-5 ? Having 24 is enough right?


The last time the CAS spoke the main options were M346, L-15 and T-50. They can look at the Hurjet, but that's a few years out, and it seems the LIFT program is more urgent. 



Knuckles said:


> A few used Hawks will do the trick. It will close the gap between K-8s and fighters. I'm not talking about the 100 series. But the 50s and 60s ones. Very reliable and an excellent trainer.


Hawk is plausible, especially with the relative thaw in UK-Pakistan defence ties. If anything, it seems more PAF pilots can vouch for the Hawk than most other platforms.

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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The last time the CAS spoke the main options were M346, L-15 and T-50. They can look at the Hurjet, but that's a few years out, and it seems the LIFT program is more urgent.
> 
> 
> Hawk is plausible, especially with the relative thaw in UK-Pakistan defence ties. If anything, it seems more PAF pilots can vouch for the Hawk than most other platforms.


So are we like really serious to acquire a LIFT now ? When can we expect to hear about deals ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

StormBreaker said:


> So are we like really serious to acquire a LIFT now ? When can we expect to hear about deals ?


The CAS said the aim is getting a LIFT before the FGFA.

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## Genghis khan1

Windjammer said:


> Apparently just found out that although both pilots ejected but sadly their chutes didn't deploy properly.
> However, I was right in the fact that last PAF crash occurred on 23 Jan 2019 in Quetta again involved an F-7.


Same thing happened with Mirage. On which uncle Sq ldr, and his trainee. Trainee ejection system failed, my uncle parachute fail to open at 4000 ft. 

PAF is flying junk.


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## Windjammer

Mapping the crash from Mianwali Pakistan today using media reports shows the aircraft travelled less than 7Kms, possibly leaving the pilots with very little time to eject as "0-collateral ditching" of the plane would've taken priority

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## Genghis khan1

These training jets needs decent ejection seat and low altitude parachutes.


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## Windjammer

Genghis khan1 said:


> Same thing happened with Mirage. On which uncle Sq ldr, and his trainee. Trainee ejection system failed, my uncle parachute fail to open at 4000 ft.
> 
> PAF is flying junk.


Like they service the aircraft engine, avionics or airframe, I wonder if same is done for ejection seats to see if allthe mechanisms are in working order.


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## Gryphon

Knuckles said:


> A few used Hawks will do the trick. It will close the gap between K-8s and fighters. I'm not talking about the 100 series. But the 50s and 60s ones. Very reliable and an excellent trainer.



Good idea.

Anything that provides a mix of affordability and reliability to PAF will do.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> Good idea.
> 
> Anything that provides a mix of affordability and reliability to PAF will do.


I wonder if the PAF would try avoiding anything that can be construed as a light fighter (so as to support JF-17 sales). If so, then it should be looking at the Hawk since, for the most part, it's marketed as a trainer.

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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> Like they service the aircraft engine, avionics or airframe, I wonder if same is done for ejection seats to see if allthe mechanisms are in working order.


That ‘see’ would be a one time see


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## Windjammer

StormBreaker said:


> That ‘see’ would be a one time see


Nopes, there was a case with an aircraft belonging to Red Arrows where the front ejection seat fired while the aircraft was static....unfortunately the pilot fell 200 feet to his death as the parachute never deployed.

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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> Nopes, there was a case with an aircraft belonging to Red Arrows where the front ejection seat fired while the aircraft was static....unfortunately the pilot fell 200 feet to his death as the parachute never deployed.


No, i meant, if we use the ejection once, can we use it again if the seat remains intact upon hit ?
Like car airbags?


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## PakFactor

Windjammer said:


> Dude I have seen this and more, please delete the video as it's very painful for friends and family to see all this.
> @Maarkhoor



What was it that was shown by Maarkhoor.


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## airomerix

StormBreaker said:


> No, i meant, if we use the ejection once, can we use it again if the seat remains intact upon hit ?
> Like car airbags?



An ejection seat cannot be reused once deployed. Even none of its parts can be salvaged after use.

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## Raider 21

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The last time the CAS spoke the main options were M346, L-15 and T-50. They can look at the Hurjet, but that's a few years out, and it seems the LIFT program is more urgent.
> 
> 
> Hawk is plausible, especially with the relative thaw in UK-Pakistan defence ties. If anything, it seems more PAF pilots can vouch for the Hawk than most other platforms.


Not to mention so many ex-PAF pilots have flown on them, in fact one of the highest hours in the world on the Hawk 100 series is an ex-Pakistani AF pilot who has 3000+ hours on the type. UK doesn't sell the 50s/60s anymore, those have ceased production. South Korea and UAE have a couple on sale, unless all the UAE 60s ended up in Jordan as there talks for that. The 100 series are too expensive for PAF, yet an excellent aircraft.



Windjammer said:


> Like they service the aircraft engine, avionics or airframe, I wonder if same is done for ejection seats to see if allthe mechanisms are in working order.


Yes they were. Martin Baker has strict timelines for them.



Windjammer said:


> Nopes, there was a case with an aircraft belonging to Red Arrows where the front ejection seat fired while the aircraft was static....unfortunately the pilot fell 200 feet to his death as the parachute never deployed.


That was a bad year for them. They lost 2 pilots in 4 months.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Knuckles said:


> Not to mention so many ex-PAF pilots have flown on them, in fact one of the highest hours in the world on the Hawk 100 series is an ex-Pakistani AF pilot who has 3000+ hours on the type. UK doesn't sell the 50s/60s anymore, those have ceased production. South Korea and UAE have a couple on sale, unless all the UAE 60s ended up in Jordan as there talks for that. The 100 series are too expensive for PAF, yet an excellent aircraft.


It would depend on the UK's willingness to extend a loan. However, seeing how the PAF is looking at the LIFT as a permanent fixture of its future fleet, and that it may be the only off-the-shelf buy (unless F-16s fall on the table), it can happen. However, Italy might be more forthcoming (on loans, etc) with the M346, and it earned a call-out from the CAS along with the T-50 and L-15.

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## Raider 21

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It would depend on the UK's willingness to extend a loan. However, seeing how the PAF is looking at the LIFT as a permanent fixture of its future fleet, and that it may be the only off-the-shelf buy (unless F-16s fall on the table), it can happen. However, Italy might be more forthcoming (on loans, etc) with the M346, and it earned a call-out from the CAS along with the T-50 and L-15.


M346 is more expensive than the Hawk 50/60s. T-50 would be good too (ex-PAF pilot evaluated it years ago with UAEAF, his comments were very favorable). UK will not extend a loan.


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## Haris Ali2140

PakFactor said:


> What was it that was shown by Maarkhoor.


Dead body of the pilot.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Knuckles said:


> M346 is more expensive than the Hawk 50/60s. T-50 would be good too (ex-PAF pilot evaluated it years ago with UAEAF, his comments were very favorable). UK will not extend a loan.


Yep. The quote for the M346 was around $45-50 m per aircraft, not sure how many years of support Leonardo was including though. But a loan is available for the M346 (and CAMM-ER if and when that enters the conversation).

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## Windjammer

StormBreaker said:


> No, i meant, if we use the ejection once, can we use it again if the seat remains intact upon hit ?
> Like car airbags?


Hardly, remember after ejection the seat separates from the pilot and falls freely, to give you an idea, these are the remains of the ejection seat and survival equipment of Indian MiG-21 that was shot down by our army in Kargil.

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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. The quote for the M346 was around $45-50 m per aircraft, not sure how many years of support Leonardo was including though. But a loan is available for the M346 (and CAMM-ER if and when that enters the conversation).



I think M346 may be the best option. Given Pakistan's deep working history with leonardo/finmeccanica (All the grifo radars, Seaspray 7300E for the ATR-72s, etc) it would go a long way in further solidifying a strong defense partnership with italy and would possibly help Pakistan acquire CAMM-ER for the MILGEM frigates.

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## Kabotar

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. The quote for the M346 was around $45-50 m per aircraft, not sure how many years of support Leonardo was including though. But a loan is available for the M346 (and CAMM-ER if and when that enters the conversation).



Wouldn't it be cheaper to use JF17B for LIFT with fly by wire isn't there a possibility to create different flight envelops?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Kabotar said:


> Wouldn't it be cheaper to use JF17B for LIFT with fly by wire isn't there a possibility to create different flight envelops?


Under ACM Sohail Aman that appeared to be the plan (2015), but under ACM Mujahid Anwar, there's been an emphasis on a dedicated LIFT.

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## GriffinsRule

L-139/159 is also a candidate. 
I really actually like the PC-21 as a candidate for LIFT as well. It can actually replace the K-8 even as its performance is actually on par with it.
https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-test-pilatus-pc-21-fast-learner/84147.article

The real purpose for a LIFT is not performance (speed of the jet etc) but actually helping pilots transition from a basic aircraft like the Mushshak/K-8 to more complicated jets that have a full fidelity avionics and stores management suites to replicate all the functions of the new advanced fighters that the airforce has in order to prepare the pilots before they get to their OCU squadrons. That means onboard avionics that allow all the functionalities of a new generation fighter but with a flight regime and handling that is much more forgiving.

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> L-139/159 is also a candidate.
> I really actually like the PC-21 as a candidate for LIFT as well. It can actually replace the K-8 even as its performance is actually on par with it.
> https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-test-pilatus-pc-21-fast-learner/84147.article
> 
> The real purpose for a LIFT is not performance (speed of the jet etc) but actually helping pilots transition from a basic aircraft like the Mushshak/K-8 to more complicated jets that have a full fidelity avionics and stores management suites to replicate all the functions of the new advanced fighters that the airforce has in order to prepare the pilots before they get to their OCU squadrons. That means onboard avionics that allow all the functionalities of a new generation fighter but with a flight regime and handling that is much more forgiving.


L139 is alot cheaper than Hawk T50 and M340 and no issue from czech Republic.


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## Tank131

GriffinsRule said:


> L-139/159 is also a candidate.
> I really actually like the PC-21 as a candidate for LIFT as well. It can actually replace the K-8 even as its performance is actually on par with it.
> https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-test-pilatus-pc-21-fast-learner/84147.article
> 
> The real purpose for a LIFT is not performance (speed of the jet etc) but actually helping pilots transition from a basic aircraft like the Mushshak/K-8 to more complicated jets that have a full fidelity avionics and stores management suites to replicate all the functions of the new advanced fighters that the airforce has in order to prepare the pilots before they get to their OCU squadrons. That means onboard avionics that allow all the functionalities of a new generation fighter but with a flight regime and handling that is much more forgiving.





mingle said:


> L139 is alot cheaper than Hawk T50 and M340 and no issue from czech Republic.



I think though it is far less expensive, the M346 could be looked at as part of a package deal with Italy.

It can be packaged with CAMM-ER for PAF and PN and Grifo-E on the block 3 if european weapons like Meteor and IRIS-T can be sourced. Get KLJ-7a or LKF-601E) for the block 1 and 2) along with PL-15/PL-10.

IF European weapons cant be sourced then get the chinese package for block 3 but get the M346 along with CAMM-ER and maybe Britecloud DRFM for JF17. Basically use Leonardo as a diplomatic in with Italy, which, has far more to offer Pakistan from a technological level than Czechs ever could... And they are somewhat in need of cash and have had good dealings with Pakistan (Spada 2000, Grifo M, Grifo-7, and Seaspray 7300E). Leonardo even has opened offices in Pakistan. They will likely be willing to invest in local industry as well.

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## hassamun

An unfortunate loss. Sadly we may never know what really happened. Sincerest condolences to their families in this difficult time and may Allah give them patience...

إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّ إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ


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## Rahil khan

News appeared on channel 24 that Training aircraft of PAF crashed near Shorkot. Pilots remained safe.

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## Maxpane

Rahil khan said:


> News appeared on channel 24 that Training aircraft of PAF crashed near Shorkot. Pilots remained safe.


thanks to Almighty Allah Pilots are safe

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## litman

that's how the corrupt politicians lead to a poor economy and adversely affects the military capability as well. paf is forced to fly 50 year old junk today as the government is unable to provide for them newer more capable platforms against an enemy which is spending billions on its military. if we look at the top 15 air powers of the world we will find PAF to be flying the most outdated air crafts. even other muslim countries like turkey, saudi arabia, egypt, UAE and Qatar have better air crafts in their inventory. we are mainly relying on 76 F-16s out of which only 18 are new and about 110 JFTs, an air craft still not at par with F-16, mirage 2000, F-15, rafale etc. as the world is going towards the fifth gen jets it seems PAF will be more handicapped but unfortuantely who cares in this country.


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## Imran Khan

* PAF jet crashes near Shorkot, pilot safe*
Web Desk On *Feb 7, 2020
JHANG: A trainer jet of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed near Shorkot, district Jhang of Punjab, said PAF spokesperson on Friday.*

The Mirage jet was on a training mission, when it crashed near Shorkot, Jhang. The pilot of the aircraft remained safe, while no human or financial loss was reported.

Meanwhile, the Air Headquarters has constituted a committee to find out the causes behind the jet crash incident.

Back in year 2018, a trainer aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had crashed while landing at the Peshawar Air Base, killing two pilots.

According to a PAF spokesperson, the aircraft crashed when it was returning from a routine training mission. Two pilots of the aircraft were martyred in the accident.

“Pakistan Air Force reports with regret that a PAF FT-7PG trainer aircraft, while recovering from a routine operational training mission, crashed during landing at Peshawar Air Base,” a statement issued by the PAF had said and added “Rescue operation is in progress.”


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## The Eagle

Good news is that pilot is safe. However loss of machine really warrants to avoid these incidents anymore. Undoubtedly, platform ageing but we have limitations. I will request everyone in advance to not to come up with ideas of new platform, this & that please.

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## Caprxl

Poverty...., has forced has to make our boys fly these birds (not saying new aircrafts cannot crash). Glad to know pilot is safe.

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## Talon

Rahil khan said:


> News appeared on channel 24 that Training aircraft of PAF crashed near Shorkot. Pilots remained safe.


Jet was from Night Strike Eagles No. 25

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## Rahil khan

Hodor said:


> Jet was from Night Strike Eagles No. 25


Thanks God pilots are safe, but still it hurts man.

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## aliyusuf

Hodor said:


> Jet was from Night Strike Eagles No. 25


That means it could have been a ROSE-II??


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## Pakistani Fighter

Hodor said:


> Jet was from Night Strike Eagles No. 25


It was a two seater?


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## StormBreaker

Maxpane said:


> thanks to Almighty Allah Pilots are safe


Alhamdullilah

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## Pakistani Fighter

2 jets have crashed under 1 month


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## StormBreaker

litman said:


> that's how the corrupt politicians lead to a poor economy and adversely affects the military capability as well. paf is forced to fly 50 year old junk today as the government is unable to provide for them newer more capable platforms against an enemy which is spending billions on its military. if we look at the top 15 air powers of the world we will find PAF to be flying the most outdated air crafts. even other muslim countries like turkey, saudi arabia, egypt, UAE and Qatar have better air crafts in their inventory. we are mainly relying on 76 F-16s out of which only 18 are new and about 110 JFTs, an air craft still not at par with F-16, mirage 2000, F-15, rafale etc. as the world is going towards the fifth gen jets it seems PAF will be more handicapped but unfortuantely who cares in this country.


And they intend to fly Mirages till 2030, fools really, they (PAF) should demand money from government directly, it is a matter of national interest, these pest politicians have fcked our economy and military badly, current rose mirages as just “dil bhelana”. They should be scrapped as soon as possible instead of driving a 1980 mehran with all the noises and problems. Procure J-10.

Block 3 bhi agay jaye jara hai, hamare pilot koi sastay nai hain jo in ghatia machinon par apni zindagi ke sath khelrahe hain.
This long training is all because of the motivation our pilots have to serve Pakistan, can they serve in war if they die before it just on a scrap aircraft ?

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## Talon

aliyusuf said:


> That means it could have been a ROSE-II??


Maybe



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> It was a two seater?


No,Pilot is a Squadron leader

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## Mrc

Paf needs a dedicated striker to replace mirages.. A dedicated bomber like su 34 ..

They shud work on it..

It shudnt be too hard to make one domestically with some help...


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## Salza

Bad start for 2020. Second crash in two consecutive months.

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## Big Tank

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage aircraft crashed on Friday while on a routine operational training mission near Shorkot city in Punjab, PAF confirmed.

A statement issued by the PAF spokesperson said the pilot safely ejected and no loss of life or property had been reported on the ground.

Additionally, a board of inquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident.

Last month, a PAF aircraft crashed while on a routine operational training mission crashed near Mianwali. Both pilots, Squadron Leader Haris bin Khalid and Flying Officer Ibaadur Rehman, aboard the PAF FT-7 aircraft lost their lives in the crash.


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## Caprxl

StormBreaker said:


> Ab bohat hogaya yar,
> Enough is enough.
> This plague of our small defence budget should end. It is a miracle that we are surviving a really huge foe for 7 decades with just $7bn budget at the moment while KSA not having much enemies as huge as india spending 8 times more than us and yet seeking military assistance from others and UAE being isolated from land threats, having just naval interests is also spending 3 times more than us.
> 
> What the f*ck is wrong with us ????


Well it takes 2 to tango,
Corrupt politicians & we as Nation as well are also responsible. Have a lot to say but will derail the thread. We all share your thoughts. Wish best for our boys & I pray somehow they get means for new procurement.

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## StormBreaker

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Karna hai but paisay nahi hai. F16s bhi lene hain. Navy ki procurement horahe hai. Shayad isiliye is baar airforce ke paas kam hun paisa


Or just double down on block 3 production if they really intend to replace mirages with thunders. 26 aircrafts a year, forget exports for 2-3 years, fill your stomach first.

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## Talon

@StormBreaker please do not derail the thread,its just for notifying crashes

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## Imran Khan

*Air Headquarters has formed a committee to investigate the causes of the plane crash.

this is some 450th such committee and we will never know what happen after that . can someone give me address of the members so we can send them reason why 50 years old mirages crash ?

we need new jets not new committee *

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## StormBreaker

Hodor said:


> @StormBreaker please do not derail the thread,its just for notifying crashes


Sorry, noted

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## AMRAAM

Big Tank said:


> A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage aircraft crashed on Friday while on a routine operational training mission near Shorkot city in Punjab, PAF confirmed.
> 
> A statement issued by the PAF spokesperson said the pilot safely ejected and no loss of life or property had been reported on the ground.
> 
> Additionally, a board of inquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident.
> 
> Last month, a PAF aircraft crashed while on a routine operational training mission crashed near Mianwali. Both pilots, Squadron Leader Haris bin Khalid and Flying Officer Ibaadur Rehman, aboard the PAF FT-7 aircraft lost their lives in the crash.



Do they operate Mirages at Shorkot?


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## Wrath

RIP


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## KhanBaba2

Wrath said:


> RIP



There was no loss of life.

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## m52k85

AMRAAM said:


> Do they operate Mirages at Shorkot?


They only operate Mirages at shorkot (Rafiqui)

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## litman

StormBreaker said:


> And they intend to fly Mirages till 2030, fools really, they (PAF) should demand money from government directly, it is a matter of national interest, these pest politicians have fcked our economy and military badly, current rose mirages as just “dil bhelana”. They should be scrapped as soon as possible instead of driving a 1980 mehran with all the noises and problems. Procure J-10.
> 
> Block 3 bhi agay jaye jara hai, hamare pilot koi sastay nai hain jo in ghatia machinon par apni zindagi ke sath khelrahe hain.
> This long training is all because of the motivation our pilots have to serve Pakistan, can they serve in war if they die before it just on a scrap aircraft ?


with the current economic condition we simply can not afford to buy any fighter. previous governments were corrupt and this one is incompetent.


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## NeonNinja

thanks to Almighty Allah Pilots are safe

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## Bossman

litman said:


> that's how the corrupt politicians lead to a poor economy and adversely affects the military capability as well. paf is forced to fly 50 year old junk today as the government is unable to provide for them newer more capable platforms against an enemy which is spending billions on its military. if we look at the top 15 air powers of the world we will find PAF to be flying the most outdated air crafts. even other muslim countries like turkey, saudi arabia, egypt, UAE and Qatar have better air crafts in their inventory. we are mainly relying on 76 F-16s out of which only 18 are new and about 110 JFTs, an air craft still not at par with F-16, mirage 2000, F-15, rafale etc. as the world is going towards the fifth gen jets it seems PAF will be more handicapped but unfortuantely who cares in this country.


Why is everyone assuming that the crash was due to technical issues related to age of the aircrafts? The last two crashes were two seaters and could have crashed due to pilot errors. A lot of countries, including developed ones like USA, Japan, Switzerland, Turkey and Brazil are still flying jets of the same vintage as the Mirage I.e the Phantom, F5, B52 etc.

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## Windjammer

It was a Mirage V EF of 27 Squadron and S/L Omar Cheema successfully ejected from the stricken jet.
There seems to be an extended exercise in operation.

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## TheTallGuy

Windjammer said:


> Mirage V EF of 27 Squadron



Ouch! This is a ROSE III


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## Nomad40

TheTallGuy said:


> Ouch! This is a ROSE III


Quick recovery wishes to the S/L

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## Incog_nito

How many Mirages are in the PAF fleet including Egyptian ones?


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## Chak Bamu

litman said:


> with the current economic condition we simply can not afford to buy any fighter. previous governments were corrupt and this one is incompetent.


Quit derailing the thread with your political rants.

Good to know that the pilot is safe. I wish him speedy recovery. I hope & wish that JF-17 Block-3 would replace the old aircraft as soon as possible. Since JF-17 can not replicate all the roles of Mirages, I agree with @Mrc that there is a dire need for dedicated strike aircraft. However I do not see that happening soon enough.

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## litman

Chak Bamu said:


> Quit derailing the thread with your political rants.
> 
> Good to know that the pilot is safe. I wish him speedy recovery. I hope & wish that JF-17 Block-3 would replace the old aircraft as soon as possible. Since JF-17 can not replicate all the roles of Mirages, I agree with @Mrc that there is a dire need for dedicated strike aircraft. However I do not see that happening soon enough.


its not a rant .its a reality. our pilots are forced to fly obsolete jets as we cant afford new one. someone is responsible or may be many are responsible for that. 2 jets lost in 2 months. that's not something good.


----------



## GriffinsRule

litman said:


> its not a rant .its a reality. our pilots are forced to fly obsolete jets as we cant afford new one. someone is responsible or may be many are responsible for that. 2 jets lost in 2 months. that's not something good.


1 plane a month is not good from a point of losing a training and a specialized asset, however it is not bad either. 

Cant look at a crash in isolation. While it is an older aircraft, it has not surpassed its structural life nor the operational viability. Can anyone here say with confidence or guess work how many hours have the Mirage fleet flown since the last crash in 2017?

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## mingle

litman said:


> its not a rant .its a reality. our pilots are forced to fly obsolete jets as we cant afford new one. someone is responsible or may be many are responsible for that. 2 jets lost in 2 months. that's not something good.


From where this incompetent Govt bring money?? When you have to repay 28 billion $$ next two yrs?? Ask Gen kiyani and kana judges who installed these corrupts and incompetent leaders on pak.

Quick fix is try to get used F-16s as many as U can from US there is no short cutt in this issue.


----------



## GriffinsRule

There are very few other avenues anyways if Pakistan wants to replace its medium weight aircraft. J-10Cs or any new fighter will be upwards of $60-80MM a piece. PAF will try to be as economical as it can be, and hence keep its Mirages on the front lines for another decade as they go through MRF and are rebuilt. The PAC output for JF-17 at 12 aircraft a year is slow enough for Pakistan to be able to afford a certain number of jets a year without breaking its bank. It also means PAF will utilize as much of the airframe life of F-7Ps and F-7PGs as it can. Given that the first 14 Block IIIs wont be inducted until early 2022 sometime, it means the force structure is not going to change dramatically either. 
The only semi-affordable way to replace any of the oldest Mirages (Mirage VPAs & VPA2/s) is to induct used F-16s. The AZM project wont yield any fruits until about 2040 so that is a long term program. By then the older F-16AM/BMs will need to be replaced as well.

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## Talon

A T-37 from Risalpur has crashed.Pilot ejected safely alhamdulilah.

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## Sine Nomine

Hodor said:


> A T-37 from Risalpur has crashed.Both pilots ejected safely alhamdulilah.


Good to know that,if i am not wrong 3rd crash in very short time span.

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## Cool_Soldier

Some Planes are very old.The have completed their life .Obviously, such planes are risk.
Budget constraint is main reason.


----------



## Talon



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## Mav3rick

We need to ground all the unreliable Jets ASAP!


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## Caprxl

Well our Lads are safe, that is d main catch. 
So anyone, how old are our T37s? Not older than mirages i think??


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

*PAF aircraft crashes in Takht Bhai*
**Click the Title above to view complete article on https://nation.com.pk/.*
1 hour agoSputnik


According to preliminary reports, the pilot managed to eject safely. Addressing the issue, the Air Headquarters has established a special committee to discover the causes of the incident.

READ MORE: PAF aircraft crashes in Takht Bhai
A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) jet has crashed near Takht Bhai in the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa region during a routine training mission, according to a PAF spokesperson.

At the moment, there is no information about the causes of the crash.

This is the third time since the beginning of the year that a Pakistani Air Force plane has crashed. Last week, a Mirage aircraft crashed near Shorkot, while in January two Pakistani air force pilots were killed in an FT-7 plane crash.


View More News
Powered By:


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## Pakistani Fighter

3rd jet in 2020


----------



## khanmubashir

is it f16 

they r showing picture of it


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

@airomerix @Hodor any updates?


----------



## TOPGUN

Sad, which fighter this time ?


----------



## Salza

Paf will match iaf record of 2019 I think the way they are crashing their jets these days. It was f7 BTW.

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## Caprxl

TOPGUN said:


> Sad, which fighter this time ?


a Trainer, T-37

Its already reported in PAF Crash Thread

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## PakSword

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> *PAF aircraft crashes in Takht Bhai*
> **Click the Title above to view complete article on https://nation.com.pk/.*
> 1 hour agoSputnik
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to preliminary reports, the pilot managed to eject safely. Addressing the issue, the Air Headquarters has established a special committee to discover the causes of the incident.
> 
> READ MORE: PAF aircraft crashes in Takht Bhai
> A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) jet has crashed near Takht Bhai in the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa region during a routine training mission, according to a PAF spokesperson.
> 
> At the moment, there is no information about the causes of the crash.
> 
> This is the third time since the beginning of the year that a Pakistani Air Force plane has crashed. Last week, a Mirage aircraft crashed near Shorkot, while in January two Pakistani air force pilots were killed in an FT-7 plane crash.
> 
> 
> View More News
> Powered By:


Bhai, remove F-16s pic.. Indian media will start yelling PAF's F-16 has been lost!

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## Caprxl

Hodor said:


> A T-37 from Risalpur has crashed.Both pilots ejected safely alhamdulilah.


@TOPGUN 
Here brother

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## HRK

FT-7 as AJJ news and The news both sharing this pic




- The News
- AJJ News


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## Pakistani Fighter

PakSword said:


> Bhai, remove F-16s pic.. Indian media will start yelling PAF's F-16 has been lost!


Done

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## Haris Ali2140

Salza said:


> Paf will match iaf record of 2019 I think the way they are crashing their jets these days. It was f7 BTW.


No its T 37.


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## Salza

Haris Ali2140 said:


> No its T 37.


 
Yup. Good that both the pilots survived.


----------



## maithil

3rd one in last two months. So sad.


----------



## aliyusuf

The Nation picked this news from Sputnik. Who, being Russian, and stung big time by Su-30MKI shoot down by PAF F-16 Block-15 MLUs ... resorted to posting a pic of the PAF's most lethal F-16D Block-52+ w/o mentioning the type of plane going down. 

Where in reality it was a T-37 that went down.

Sputnik --> Russian sore losers.
The Nation --> Lifafa journalism at play.

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## Talon

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> *PAF aircraft crashes in Takht Bhai*
> **Click the Title above to view complete article on https://nation.com.pk/.*
> 1 hour agoSputnik
> 
> 
> According to preliminary reports, the pilot managed to eject safely. Addressing the issue, the Air Headquarters has established a special committee to discover the causes of the incident.
> 
> READ MORE: PAF aircraft crashes in Takht Bhai
> A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) jet has crashed near Takht Bhai in the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa region during a routine training mission, according to a PAF spokesperson.
> 
> At the moment, there is no information about the causes of the crash.
> 
> This is the third time since the beginning of the year that a Pakistani Air Force plane has crashed. Last week, a Mirage aircraft crashed near Shorkot, while in January two Pakistani air force pilots were killed in an FT-7 plane crash.
> 
> 
> View More News
> Powered By:


There's a dedicated thread for notifying crashes.



HRK said:


> FT-7 as AJJ news and The news both sharing this pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - The News
> - AJJ News


This picture is of the recent F-7 crash in Mianwali.



Salza said:


> Yup. Good that both the pilots survived.


There was only one pilot,a cadet.

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## Pandora

Another Mirage crash. If this is the condition of our Rose Upgraded mirages then imagine ones being flown without any upgrade. May Allah protect our pilots from these flying coffins.


----------



## Areesh

maithil said:


> 3rd one in last two months. So sad.



All decades old single engine unlike IAF


----------



## 313ghazi

The pilot survived, which is good. Pilots are worth more than 60's era junk. We should stop flying these planes ASAP.


----------



## khail007

We used to hear frequently crashing IAF planes and now same started for PAF.
Are we became more ignorant after 27 February - not a good sign, @MastanKhan statements/warnings/alerts seems to be catching up in prevailing situation.

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## Windjammer

There's a dedicated thread for all PAF crashes and the news was posted there several hours earlier but no, we just need to open a new thread without even knowing the contents.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/notify-paf-aircraft-crashes.3718/page-260


----------



## Safriz

Which aircraft was this?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227576717600006145

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227574648348594176

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227589339917541377


----------



## undercover JIX

Allah apnay hifz o amaan mae rakhay...

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## mingle

Time to look replacement for these ageing workhorse let them rest now


----------



## Myth_buster_1

F-7 family has NO PLACE in 21st century to face technically advance IAF. Its like bringing a knife to a gun fight!
its that bad!
F-7 needs to go



khail007 said:


> We used to hear frequently crashing IAF planes and now same started for PAF.
> Are we became more ignorant after 27 February - not a good sign, @MastanKhan statements/warnings/alerts seems to be catching up in prevailing situation.



IAF crashes 4th generation planes and these are F-7 and Mirages from 70s and 80s.


----------



## third eye

Are we having a crash vs crash discussion?

Accidents happen during training, let’s leave it at that

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## airomerix

The chap was on a solo flight. Crashes happen. 

T-37 is a very safe aircraft to fly. It is not only easy to handle, it has an excellent gliding capability, stall recovery and it can also land on its nose wheel in case the main landing gears refuse to push out. Happened so many times. Saved so many pilots.

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## khansaheeb

maithil said:


> 3rd one in last two months. So sad.


Not really, it means our pilots will be flying JF17s next time.


----------



## araz

seven0seven said:


> WHAT WRONG JUSTIFICATION HE GAVE OUR 50+ TRAINER WENT DOWN AND YOU'RE CRASHING YOUR 4TH GEN JETS REGULARLY I ALREADY PROVED THAT TO YOU,HE IS RIGHT,IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT. JUST REPORT AND DON'T REPLY


Please stick to the thread line. This is a discusssion about PAF crashes. Now back to the discussion. Let us first find out the reason for the accident before we start blaming the plane. 
A

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## third eye

seven0seven said:


> your counrtymen @Raj-Hindustani started this


It’s nothing to do with your or my country man. 

Countless posts & threads exist on Pak posters gloating on crashes of IAF machines too

Being a military forum one expects maturity all around on military matters.

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## War Historian

What was the defence budget in 2017-2018 for armed forces. I think it was 11 billion dollars. And how much now... You devalue you currency and ISPR said this year we don't want huge budget. Because we don't want to procure new armament. So who is wrong here... Judgment is your now??


litman said:


> with the current economic condition we simply can not afford to buy any fighter. previous governments were corrupt and this one is incompetent.


----------



## litman

War Historian said:


> What was the defence budget in 2017-2018 for armed forces. I think it was 11 billion dollars. And how much now... You devalue you currency and ISPR said this year we don't want huge budget. Because we don't want to procure new armament. So who is wrong here... Judgment is your now??


ISPR tried to sacrifice to support an incompetent government.


----------



## jaibi

Please don't make this a political issue. Pilots of all air forces know the risks when they climb into the cockpit. Salute to the brave men from all over the world who take this risk for their nation's defense.

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## MastanKhan

litman said:


> with the current economic condition we simply can not afford to buy any fighter. previous governments were corrupt and this one is incompetent.



Hi,

Israel did when Golda Meir made that deal with the US---.

Israel was flat broke---worst than us as we are now---.

Victory has a thousand fathers---defeat---none---.

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## sneakerspark

A F16 has crashed while practicing for Pakistan Day Parade in Islamabad


----------



## BHarwana

Can any one confirm this? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237619621953507328


sneakerspark said:


> A F16 has crashed while practicing for Pakistan Day Parade in Islamabad


No one know what jet it is. People are only talking about crash of some jet in Islamabad.


----------



## PakShaheen79

YES. all over media now


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## Talon

F16 crashed over parade ground while rehearsing.Pilot was maneuvering the jet for max rate turn.No ejection reported.
View attachment 612746


----------



## PakShaheen79

F-16  
Really Sad. Praying for pilot.


----------



## SABRE

2020 has not been a good year for PAF thus far.


----------



## sneakerspark

BHarwana said:


> Can any one confirm this?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237619621953507328
> 
> No one know what jet it is. People are only talking about crash of some jet in Islamabad.


I was watching it and have the video of the crash so i i know


----------



## Caprxl

sneakerspark said:


> A F16 has crashed while practicing for Pakistan Day Parade in Islamabad


Where it is confirmed its f16?


----------



## BHarwana

It is a trainee jet.


----------



## Cool_Soldier

Feeling sorry for both Pilot and plane.


----------



## BHarwana

sneakerspark said:


> I was watching it and have the video of the crash so i i know


It is a trainee jet


----------



## Frozr

Any update on the pilot? Hope he survived


----------



## BHarwana




----------



## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Caprxl said:


> Where it is confirmed its f16?


eyewitnesses


----------



## Caprxl

BHarwana said:


> It is a trainee jet


You sure man ? 
& what about d lad flying ??


----------



## sneakerspark

Frozr said:


> Any update on the pilot? Hope he survived


Unfortunately he did not


----------



## PakShaheen79

Reportedly pilot couldn't survive. Waiting for official confirmation though.


----------



## CT-9914 "Snoop"

BHarwana said:


> View attachment 612748


had to be a mushshak with a VERY big fuel load.


----------



## Rahil khan

Another channel says Pilot is safe. Thanks Almighty.


----------



## Riz

Confirmed.. It was F-16


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237623730341326848
Crash video of F-16


----------



## Caprxl

Riz said:


> Confirmed.. It was F-16





Riz said:


> Confirmed.. It was F-16
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237623730341326848
> Crash video of F-16



Bad, cant see ejection,


----------



## Jamie Brooks

I also saw the smoke... power cut shortly afterwards... Don’t know if I should go in for a closer look.


----------



## PakShaheen79

Who was piloting it ...??


----------



## Frozr

Jamie Brooks said:


> I also saw the smoke... power cut shortly afterwards... Don’t know if I should go in for a closer look.


Security forces would have cordoned off the area by now


----------



## Xestan

It's confirmed. An F-16, no ejection seen.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625068009730052


----------



## CT-9914 "Snoop"

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625816428797954

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237627464744144897
Confirmed F-16, no visible ejection, probably stalled or was too low to compete maneuver.


----------



## SABRE

Xestan said:


> It's confirmed. An F-16, no ejection seen.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625068009730052



There are reports of successful ejection.


----------



## baqai

WC Nauman Akram winner of Sher Afghan is said to be piloting the aircraft


----------



## sherdil76

It seems pilot error, as he tried to take a very low loop...



Xestan said:


> It's confirmed. An F-16, no ejection seen.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625068009730052


----------



## Frozr

SABRE said:


> There are reports of successful ejection.


Hope that's true, the pilots are PAF's most valuable asset


----------



## Enigma SIG

Seems similar to the USAF Thunderbirds F-16 accident. Altimeter not set right?

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## truthseeker2010

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237619621953507328
> Confirmed F-16, no visible ejection, probably stalled or was too low to compete maneuver.





sherdil76 said:


> It seems pilot error, as he tried to take a very low loop...



The plane completed the loop, but lost the power and stalled.

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## Side-Winder

CONFIRMED - F-16 CRASHED

-PAF Spokesperon


----------



## Cool_Soldier

not sure about ejection.
but by seeing video, it was really no chance of escape as plane went too lower to ground.


----------



## Amavous

PAF is getting intoxicated on its own brew of 27th Feb victory drink. It should pay more attention on safety record

2020 is pathetic in terms of flight safety of PAF.

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## Chak Bamu

Xestan said:


> It's confirmed. An F-16, no ejection seen.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625068009730052


This is sad. No ejection seen, though lack of ejection can not be confirmed. It looks as though the pilot misjudged the height needed to complete the loop. Its not the first time this has happened in the world.

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## Salza

F16 a huge lost. 3rd fighter plane crash this year. 1 trainer mushtaq also crashed last month. No news regarding pilot probably died in a crash as well.


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## sherdil76

Wing commander Noman was flying the plane that crashed during 23rd rehearsals... It's not confirmed yet that if he ejected or not


----------



## SABRE

IMO this should be a wake-up call for PAF to think about F-16 numbers. Relative to our threat environment we only have few of these aircraft. Risking them in conflict scenario is one thing, losing them in peacetime is another. Either buy more F-16s or buy their alternative.

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## SecularNationalist

F-16 jet of PAF crashed near sharparian jungle area of Islamabad. Black clouds can be seen from my house and my brother who works nearby can heard and see lot of sirens and rescue teams. The jet was doing rehearsals for parade day,I hope the pilot survived.
Just saw a rescue helicopter over my house.
@Dubious kindly change the thread title it's F-16 not F-26.

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## Amavous

PAF spokesperson is confirming that F-16 is down during rehearsal of 23rd march maneuvers. PAF rearely use language like this So most likely human error

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## Talon

sherdil76 said:


> Wing commander Imran from 106 GDP was in the plane crash during 23rd March rehearsals... It's not confirmed yet that if he ejected or not


No..Wing commander Noman Akram OC No. 9 Squadron.Right one in the picture

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## NA71

Allah o Akbar.....speechless.


----------



## Salza

Can't even replace this very valuable plane. Very poor record this year so far.


----------



## Mr.Cringeworth

Do You have any proof?

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## PakGuns

Mr.Cringeworth said:


> Do You have any proof?


yes videos i have


----------



## SecularNationalist

Mr.Cringeworth said:


> Do You have any proof?


Now it's all over news. What more proof you want?


----------



## NA71

SecularNationalist said:


> F-16 jet of PAF crashed near sharparian jungle area of Islamabad. Black clouds can be seen from my house and my brother who works nearby can see lot of sirens and rescue teams. The jet was doing rehearsals for parade day,I hope the pilot survived.
> Just saw a rescue helicopter over my house.
> @Dubious kindly change the thread title it's F-16 not F-26.


Please correct your thread name....F-16 not F-26

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## hasnainfirst

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625816428797954



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625068009730052
In the second video , you can see that he performed the maneuver at very low altitude and wasn't able to lift the aircraft afterwards so in my opinion it is pilot's mistake , the machine was fine ...

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## GriffinsRule

Just saw the video of the crash. No ejection sadly =(


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

FT7, Mirage and now F16

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## Caprxl

Salza said:


> Can't even replace this very valuable plane. Very poor record this year so far.



Well, our greive is more for our Man & less for d machine, still no news about him.
Maybe its time to get more., replacing aint d option.

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## Rashid Mahmood

*اِنَّا لِلّٰہِ وَاِنَّآ اِلَیْہِ رَاجِعُوْنَ*

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## Defense Reader

Very sad about Pilot & F16 combo great loss for the Nation...... 
اناللہ وانا الیہ راجعون


----------



## Frozr

Salza said:


> Can't even replace this very valuab





Caprxl said:


> Well, our greive is more for our Man & less for d machine, still no news about him.
> Maybe its time to get more., replacing aint d option.


Exactly, you can always buy more planes, but pilots are the real asset with years of training and thousands of flying hours they are what makes PAF the force it is today

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## Mumm-Ra

*اِنَّا لِلّٰہِ وَاِنَّآ اِلَیْہِ رَاجِعُوْنَ*

Allah Rehm karay.

Sad day for the nation


----------



## SecularNationalist

hasnainfirst said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625816428797954
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625068009730052


It was a very steep fast dive I think the pilot didn't survive.Difficult to eject in such circumstances.

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## PakGuns

... pilot error he looped too early without gaining much altitude

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## GHALIB

hasnainfirst said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625816428797954
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625068009730052



how sad


----------



## Caprxl

Rashid Mahmood said:


> *اِنَّا لِلّٰہِ وَاِنَّآ اِلَیْہِ رَاجِعُوْنَ*


Hnmm ... no news on channels?
You confirm brother?


----------



## Hadi ali jaffri

This is so sad
Day by day our fleet strength is depleting
Mirage and then the f16 which is spearhead of our airforce.
May Allah raise the ranks of the pilot.
Inna lilahi wa inna ilahi rajioon


----------



## PradoTLC

Is the pilot ok?...

that is more important

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## Invictus.inc

The pilot did not attain the required altitude to come out of that loop 
Happens often during airshows


----------



## sohail.ishaque

A very very sad news indeed..


----------



## Pinnacle

I just dont give a damn about F-16. The saddest thing is, We have lost our 'Sher Afgan'. I am just speechless

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## elitepilot09

This is incredibly sad news. No way the pilot ejected. Not sure if he looped too early or if he G-LOC'd.

Screw these parades and performances. Keep these fighting machines for what they're meant for. A fly past? Sure. Fancy performances of critical national assets (pilot + plane), NO.

Inna lillahi wa Inna Ilaihi Raji'oon.

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## KAI KAI Baloch

Hodor said:


> No..Wing commander Noman Akram OC No. 9 Squadron.Right one in the picture
> View attachment 612749


Still confusion who imran or nauman


----------



## hasnainfirst

PradoTLC said:


> Is the pilot ok?...
> 
> that is more important


he can't be seen ejecting in the videos available on twitter so ....


----------



## NA71

SO PILOT IS SAFE ....No worries.

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## Esgalduin

All we have is speculation at this point. Still waiting on confirmation from the proper channels. From a purely visual perspective, the plane looked like it was skimming treetops as seen in the two previously posted videos. So far, no ejection has been seen and I honestly can't blame the pilot given how fast the plane went from hundreds of feet until impact. All signs (at the present moment) point to a loss of a Viper driver, though I pray that he is safe. Incidentally, ths brings the existing fleet of PAF F16s to the low 70s, provided Wikipedia's citations are accurate.


----------



## Murgah




----------



## Salza

I always feared such crash during live or practice rehearsals. We have been using F16s in public exhibitions far too many times. There was no need for such show over Karachi just last month where F16s were involved. We already have them in very limited number and we can't even replace them with a new one instantly. Very sad for the plane and the pilot. As mentioned above pilot was wing commander, so definately a set back for PAF.

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## Talon

KAI KAI Baloch said:


> Still confusion who imran or nauman


Noman confirmed



NA71 said:


> SO PILOT IS SAFE ....No worries.


He's gone,media doesn't know sh*t.


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## Caprxl

NA71 said:


> SO PILOT IS SAFE ....No worries.


Still no confirmation from PAF...


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## Zulfiqar

Jets can be replaced, pilots are more important.

RIP Sher Afgan!

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## KAI KAI Baloch

PakGuns said:


> ... pilot error he looped too early without gaining much altitude


Can be gloc as well


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## Esgalduin

NA71 said:


> SO PILOT IS SAFE ....No worries.


The evidence we have so far points to the opposite. No ejection was seen but the two videos posted were taken from quite a distance so I sincerely hope the pilot was able to punch out in time. Thus far, we have no confirmation on the pilot's status, so do keep him in your prayers but try not to say stuff without evidence.


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## Caprxl

Hodor said:


> He's gone,media doesn't know sh*t.


For the 1st time i wish that you are wrong..
That you aint knowing d sh*t about anything.


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## Salza

Pilot killed. Ary News.


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## Esgalduin

KAI KAI Baloch said:


> Can be gloc as well


Could also be a stall due to malfunctioning equipment, or some bird strike, or a collision with some other obstruction not seen in the video. All we can do now is wait for an inquiry. I hope the news of the pilot's shahadat is disproved but the chances of that happening look very small now. Either way, this would be the third or fourth(?) F16 crash for the PAF since its induction. Tragic day for the small group of fighter pilots in Pakistan's military.

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## Amavous

Pilot attained Shahadat. Speaker national assembly confirmed it

Fatheha was said in national assembly for the pilot


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## Devil Soul

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237637016906596355


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## NA71

Salza said:


> Pilot killed. Ary News.


 embraced shahadat....

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## Caprxl

*اِنَّا لِلّٰہِ وَاِنَّآ اِلَیْہِ رَاجِعُوْنَ*

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## Salza

A very valuable asset lost today just for the sake of damn parade. We need these planes in war times/or war type situations, not for show off public shows.

Its 2nd F16 crash after 1994.

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## StormBreaker

I hope the Pilot is safe otherwise that guy had time to eject but he gave his last to safeguard the aircraft by trying till the last moment.

Also, every unit of F-16 is very important, this is a big loss and i hope it isnt B52

Evidently it was a pilot error for pulling out loop at very low altitude or another explanation could be that the pilot was trying to pull a close call loop to the ground but he misunderstood the terrain for being plain but in reality wasn’t.

One last possibility could be which I don’t actually believe it to be the case is that while he was lowering altitude, maybe he lost hold of the throttle or some other malfunction in cockpit but this is the least likely case.

Most likely is Pilot error and Wrong calculated pull...

@Hodor @airomerix @The Eagle

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## Amavous

Salza said:


> We need these planes in war times/or way type situations, not for show off public shows.



It would seem harsh at this moment, But we need to stop this victory dance now, enough already.

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## StormBreaker

Salza said:


> A very valuable asset lost today just for the sake of damn parade. We need these planes in war times/or way type situations, not for show off public shows.
> 
> Its 2nd F16 crash after 1994.


Indeed, just for a parade...

I don’t know whether to be satisfied at “2 since 1994” as compared to adversary prime fighter or sorrow over the fleet size reduction .


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## Devil Soul

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237638958756085761


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## Dazzler

Salza said:


> A very valuable asset lost today just for the sake of damn parade. We need these planes in war times/or way type situations, not for show off public shows.
> 
> Its 2nd F16 crash after 1994.



Thats an impeccable record, 2 crashes in 26 years. 

RIP to the pilot. One of the finest we had.

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## Salza

NA71 said:


> embraced shahadat....



Can't say. Such daredevil stunts are almost mini suicide attempt in my opinion. Not a war type situation either. He got killed in a show off act organised by Paf management all the time. Are these regular airshows part of pilot's duty or not is debatable. Anyways may his soul rest in peace.

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## Esgalduin

StormBreaker said:


> I hope the Pilot is safe otherwise that guy had time to eject but he gave his last to safeguard the aircraft by trying till the last moment.
> 
> Also, every unit of F-16 is very important, this is a big loss and i hope it isnt B52
> 
> Evidently it was a pilot error for pulling out loop at very low altitude or another explanation could be that the pilot was trying to pull a close call loop to the ground but he misunderstood the terrain for being plain but in reality wasn’t.
> 
> One last possibility could be which I don’t actually believe it to be the case is that while he was lowering altitude, maybe he lost hold of the throttle or some other malfunction in cockpit but this is the least likely case.
> 
> Most likely is Pilot error and Wrong calculated pull...
> 
> @Hodor @airomerix @The Eagle


I doubt the pilot had much time. Depending on speed, a jet can go from 400 feet to the ground in about 3 seconds. It is highly likely that the pilot had little time to diagnose the problem and react to it. I'm only speculating and I await the results of the investigation.

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## NA71

StormBreaker said:


> I hope the Pilot is safe otherwise that guy had time to eject but he gave his last to safeguard the aircraft by trying till the last moment.
> 
> Also, every unit of F-16 is very important, this is a big loss and i hope it isnt B52
> 
> Evidently it was a pilot error for pulling out loop at very low altitude or another explanation could be that the pilot was trying to pull a close call loop to the ground but he misunderstood the terrain for being plain but in reality wasn’t.
> 
> One last possibility could be which I don’t actually believe it to be the case is that while he was lowering altitude, maybe he lost hold of the throttle or some other malfunction in cockpit but this is the least likely case.
> 
> Most likely is Pilot error and Wrong calculated pull...
> 
> @Hodor @airomerix @The Eagle



unfortunately the pilot couldn't survive ....


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## Counter-Errorist

StormBreaker said:


> I hope the Pilot is safe otherwise that guy had time to eject but he gave his last to safeguard the aircraft by trying till the last moment.
> 
> Also, every unit of F-16 is very important, this is a big loss and i hope it isnt B52
> 
> Evidently it was a pilot error for pulling out loop at very low altitude or another explanation could be that the pilot was trying to pull a close call loop to the ground but he misunderstood the terrain for being plain but in reality wasn’t.
> 
> One last possibility could be which I don’t actually believe it to be the case is that while he was lowering altitude, maybe he lost hold of the throttle or some other malfunction in cockpit but this is the least likely case.
> 
> Most likely is Pilot error and Wrong calculated pull...
> 
> @Hodor @airomerix @The Eagle



Let's not speculate until we have more information.

Planes can be replaced, but not the lives of true patriots.

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## StormBreaker

Esgalduin said:


> I doubt the pilot had much time. Depending on speed, a jet can go from 400 feet to the ground in about 3 seconds. It is highly likely that the pilot had little time to diagnose the problem and react to it. I'm only speculating and I await the results of the investigation.


Yes yes, you are precise.

Even at half loop, Pilot hadn’t anticipated the crash only until he was descending at 35 degrees to the ground which wasn’t even half a second, and since our pilots aren’t used to ejection, that half second didn’t trigger the “Eject Instinct of a pilot”


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## Invictus.inc

I've been to a number of 23rd March parades & seen the British Red arrows Chinese J10 & Solo Turk Perform first hand
None of them fly as aggressively as PAF with the exception of Solo Turk
Infact I was surprised how carefully the J10 maneuvered at the bare minimum of speeds
What's the need of employing such expensive front line equipment to cheer the crowds is beyond me
We have the Sherdil formation for that & that's all that should have been employed
27Feb made us cocky as a nation & that gets you killed
That being said Rest Easy Warrior !!

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## The Eagle

Hodor said:


> No..Wing commander Noman Akram OC No. 9 Squadron.Right one in the picture
> View attachment 612749



Sher AFgan Trophy Winner.

*اِنَّا لِلّٰہِ وَاِنَّآ اِلَیْہِ رَاجِعُوْنَ*
*
What a gem we lost today. Really sad by now.
RIP brother... farewell.*

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## Dark1

Lots of power towers around and with power going off , could have hit powerlines.


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## PradoTLC

StormBreaker said:


> I hope the Pilot is safe otherwise that guy had time to eject but he gave his last to safeguard the aircraft by trying till the last moment.
> 
> Also, every unit of F-16 is very important, this is a big loss and i hope it isnt B52
> 
> Evidently it was a pilot error for pulling out loop at very low altitude or another explanation could be that the pilot was trying to pull a close call loop to the ground but he misunderstood the terrain for being plain but in reality wasn’t.
> 
> One last possibility could be which I don’t actually believe it to be the case is that while he was lowering altitude, maybe he lost hold of the throttle or some other malfunction in cockpit but this is the least likely case.
> 
> Most likely is Pilot error and Wrong calculated pull...
> 
> @Hodor @airomerix @The Eagle




i doubt it is pilot error... they are highly trained and carefully selected... i am more concerned is given the age of the jet the some controls would malfunctioned. 

also he didnt eject.,

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## StormBreaker

NA71 said:


> unfortunately the pilot couldn't survive ....


There are mixed news coming tho, But I didn’t find any ejection so that would be the unfortunate case sadly, and that too a Wing Commander.



PradoTLC said:


> i doubt it is pilot error... they are highly trained and carefully selected... i am more concerned is given the age of the jet the some controls would malfunctioned.
> 
> also he didnt eject.,


I presented 3 possibilities :
High possible to least possible (up to down)
- Pilot error
- Miscalculation 
- Loss of Grip/Malfunction


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## BL33D

Why is the F16 pilot doing a risky maneuver near a civilian population and at such a low height ??? Was it routine or completely pilots fault ???


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## Esgalduin

Invictus.inc said:


> I've been to a number of 23rd March parades & seen the British Red arrows Chinese J10 & Solo Turk Perform first hand
> None of them fly as aggressively as PAF with the exception of Solo Turk
> Infact I was surprised how carefully the J10 maneuvered at the bare minimum of speeds
> What's the need of employing such expensive front line equipment to cheer the crowds is beyond me
> We have the Sherdil formation for that & that's all that should have been employed
> 27Feb made us cocky as a nation & that gets you killed
> That being said Rest Easy Warrior !!


All lessons in fighter aviation have been written in blood. That is an inescapable fact. The lesson could be specific to one community or one learned by all aviators, but it is written in blood. And I am confident the PAF will try to learn from this tragic loss.

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## Enigma SIG

StormBreaker said:


> There are mixed news coming tho, But I didn’t find any ejection so that would be the unfortunate case sadly, and that too a Wing Commander.
> 
> 
> I presented 3 possibilities :
> High possible to least possible (up to down)
> - Pilot error
> - Miscalculation
> - Loss of Grip/Malfunction


Possible incorrectly set altimeter coupled rising terrain, huge *** powerlines. I don't know why PAF keeps putting man and machine in harms way.

Similar Thunderbird accident:

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## Dark1

In this age of bvr, high speed maneuvering seems redundant. Guess would be useful while evading missiles but seems a waste for airshow.


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## Enigma SIG

Esgalduin said:


> And I am confident the PAF will try to learn from this tragic loss.


They should know better than most of us. Why does it take for a loss of man and machine to learn the right lessons?

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## Caprxl

Amavous said:


> It would seem harsh at this moment, But we need to stop this victory dance now, enough already.






Salza said:


> Can't say. Such daredevil stunts are almost mini suicide attempt in my opinion. Not a war type situation either. He got killed in a show off act organised by Paf management all the time. Are these regular airshows part of pilot's duty or not is debatable. Anyways may his soul rest in peace.



It wasnt a just a show stunt brother & had nothing to do with show off especially 27th related. Every year we celebrate 23rd.

I know you are greived n sadden & so are rest of us. May the Guy find highest place in hereafter. A big loss it is.

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## Esgalduin

Enigma SIG said:


> They should know better than most of us. Why does it take for a loss of man and machine to learn the right lessons?


Could be hubris post 27th Feb, could be insufficient preparation, could be a malfunction, could be a case of GLOC, and so on, and so forth. The hows and whys will be revealed after the investigation. For now, while it is entirely acceptable to respectfully debate how something like this happened, we must not do so with a tone of "this is what the pilot SHOULD have done."

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## StormBreaker

Deceased Wing Commander Noman Akram OC 9 Sqn








__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237641843564781569


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## Salza

Overconfidence often results in such accidents. Using valuable and very strategic machines far too often for public shows should be banned for good. Transfer this role to JF17s only.

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## StormBreaker

It was an F-16 AM since Griffins operate AM and BM.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Caprxl said:


> Hnmm ... no news on channels?
> You confirm brother?


 Yes.


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## Adam_Khan

Dazzler said:


> Thats an impeccable record, 2 crashes in 26 years.
> 
> RIP to the pilot. One of the finest we had.



One more crashed in early 2000's due to spatial disorientation,pilot S/L Saud died. 

It's really sad to see the airforce lose such a precious guy and aircraft just to cheer crowds, it's about time they stop doing that. May he rest in peace.

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## Salza

Caprxl said:


> It wasnt a just a show stunt brother & had nothing to do with show off especially 27th related. Every year we celebrate 23rd.
> 
> I know you are greived n sadden & so are rest of us. May the Guy find highest place in hereafter. A big loss it is.



We don't need valuable F16s during 23rd march air shows. Lesson learnt today.. Did we or not. This role should had been transfered to JF17s only because we can always produce a brand new Jf17 at will but not F16. Now let us mourn on our stupidity and sheer over confidence.

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## NA71

will there be any airshow on 23? or will be canceled....I think PAF will go ahead with it.



Adam_Khan said:


> One more crashed in early 2000's due to spatial disorientation,pilot S/L Saud died.
> 
> It's really sad to see the airforce lose such a precious guy and aircraft just to cheer crowds, it's about time they stop doing that. May he rest in peace.



Yes, another crash was happened on 23 parade day when Mirage was crashed just after taking part in fly past.


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## volatile

It was a high time as PAF has been engaged in several operations,training's plus demonstrations over the past few years ,the need of the time is to reduce unnecessary exposure of pilots to such demonstrations. A great loss and for nothing just few seconds of joy to the people . 

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/airforce/PAF/

Total 9 F16s were write off w/o prior to this incident

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## Reichmarshal

By the looks of the video it seems Pilot error as the loop and the dive were too shallow.The pilot had no chance to eject.
But at the same time at the top of the loop their seems to be smoke from the engine which is very uncharacteristic so could also be a flame out.
All in all a great loss

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## Amavous

Salza said:


> Transfer this role to JF17s only.



No man No. Believe me when I saw this ticker on TV that PAF jet crashed in Islamabad during rehearsal that very second I said to myself, OH God please don't let it be JF17 then 5 seconds later ticker changed and it said f-16 and I was stunned.

We should stop these aggressive low altitude maneuvers altogether. Keep these maneuvers high in the air during training and not in public shows. Just simple fly-by of aircrafts is sufficient for public appearances.

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## Dazzler

Adam_Khan said:


> One more crashed in early 2000's due to spatial disorientation,pilot S/L Saud died.
> 
> It's really sad to see the airforce lose such a precious guy and aircraft just to cheer crowds, it's about time they stop doing that. May he rest in peace.



True.

He was too precious to be lost for airshows and show offs.

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## The Eagle

We all are saddened by the loss as such but lest not downplay the cause for which W/C Noman Akram was there.. be it show or anything else; these professionals are there on purpose. It will be better to stick with the topic and discussion in view of tactical aspects only. Also, it will be appreciated to not to post irrelevant tweets of those getting satisfied over an incident as such while they miserably failed when faced PAF in broad daylight. For those low lives; here is the message that they will face Noman Akram every time.

In regard to causes, nothing is clear as of yet whether a technical fault or highly risked maneuver. Not to forget that W/C Noman Akram was one of the best among pilots & the man wasn't a nave jockey. 

Personally, am really saddened by the loss and cannot put it in words. Let's farewell our brother with honour and stand up-to his dedication & devotion.

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## mourning sage

News says he ejected safely.


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## Haris Ali2140

People are ranting too much. It would have happened during training or during a normal flight. Anything could have happened.

Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

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## Adam_Khan

Dazzler said:


> True.
> 
> He was too precious to be lost for airshows and show offs.



He did eject,saw a picture of his body don't want to post it here but looks like he died because of head injuries.
Sadly he was too low and reckless to start with.


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## chauvunist

Inna Lillah e wa inna ilaihe Raajeon...

What a sad news for the whole nation losing such a brave soul..

It's high time we reduce the number of aerial shows which happen more than quite a few times each year..


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## SecularNationalist

sherdil76 said:


> It seems pilot error, as he tried to take a very low loop...





Chak Bamu said:


> This is sad. No ejection seen, though lack of ejection can not be confirmed. It looks as though the pilot misjudged the height needed to complete the loop. Its not the first time this has happened in the world.





Amavous said:


> PAF spokesperson is confirming that F-16 is down during rehearsal of 23rd march maneuvers. PAF rearely use language like this So most likely human error





PakGuns said:


> ... pilot error he looped too early without gaining much altitude





Invictus.inc said:


> The pilot did not attain the required altitude to come out of that loop
> Happens often during airshows


Yes most probably its a human error. We humans are prone to make mistakes,even the best pilots can make such mistakes.
He dived and miscalculated ,later he tried to recover but failed. He didn't manage to eject because till the very last moment he was thinking he will recover from the dive but he didn't.Otherwise the Martin Baker ejection seats of F-16 works like a charm.
RIP wing commander ,we lost a valuable asset today.


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## Amaa'n

Salza said:


> We don't need valuable F16s during 23rd march air shows. Lesson learnt today.. Did we or not. This role should had been transfered to JF17s only because we can always produce a brand new Jf17 at will but not F16. Now let us mourn on our stupidity and sheer over confidence.


are you fine with loosing a great pilot even in a JF17?
we will get new machines sooner or later, An F16 will get covered by two new JF17 during strike mission. Worst is lose of life, we lost an asset today, it doesn't matter which machine it was, it was the Pilot that deliveredt wrath to the enemy.....

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## StormBreaker

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> are you fine with loosing a great pilot even in a JF17?
> we will get new machines sooner or later, An F16 will get covered by two new JF17 during strike mission. Worst is lose of life, we lost an asset today, it doesn't matter which machine it was, it was the Pilot that deliveredt wrath to the enemy.....


Winner of Sher Afghan trophy as the *Best Marksman *is something that proves a Pilot’s worth, He was indeed a Huge Asset, All those years of practice and hardwork, Gone in a loop !!!

Machines can come again, and sooner F-16s will lose their worth in PAF, but our best assets are our Pilots.

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## Dazzler

SecularNationalist said:


> Yes most probably its a human error. We humans are prone to make mistakes,even the best pilots can make such mistakes.
> He dived and miscalculated ,later he tried to recover but failed. He didn't manage to eject because till the very last moment he was thinking he will recover from the dive but he didn't.Otherwise the Martin Baker ejection seats of F-16 works like a charm.
> RIP wing commander ,we lost a valuable asset today.



F-16s have ACES-2 ejection seats, not Martin Baker.

http://www.ejectionsite.com/f16seat.htm

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## NA71

mourning sage said:


> News says he ejected safely.


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## Esgalduin

The Eagle said:


> We all are saddened by the loss as such but lest not downplay the cause for which W/C Noman Akram was there.. be it show or anything else; these professionals are there on purpose. It will be better to stick with the topic and discussion in view of tactical aspects only. Also, it will be appreciated to not to post irrelevant tweets of those getting satisfied over an incident as such while they miserably failed when faced PAF in broad daylight. For those low lives; here is the message that they will face Noman Akram every time.
> 
> In regard to causes, nothing is clear as of yet whether a technical fault or highly risked maneuver. Not to forget that W/C Noman Akram was one of the best among pilots & the man wasn't a nave jockey.
> 
> Personally, am really saddened by the loss and cannot put it in words. Let's farewell our brother with honour and stand up-to his dedication & devotion.


Exactly, it is perfectly all right to respectfully debate how it could have happened but second-guessing the pilot's state of mind (considering his fine professional caliber) is a cuntish move. We must take great care to be _descriptive_ rather than _prescriptive. _As for the Indians, let them bark. Any fighter pilot regardless of nationality will hopefully not be reacting with such glee, given the fact that they understand how tough, potentially fatal, and unpredictable a job this is.

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## StormBreaker

Salza said:


> On Karachi roads, when ever we see young boys doing stunts on bikes, we don't cheer, we call them crazy, idiots and often say jub accident hoga na phir pata chaley ga. Same situation here. Just for the sake of few minutes entertainment, we end up losing a precious plane and a very skillful pilot. Now who is idiot here... Who will question paf chief... Well no body


Please don’t derail the topic. Bikes and corrola’s aren’t meant for stunts or drifts, for that purpose, there are dedicated vehicles.

Fighter jets are designed specifically for stunts and they are part of Air Combat...

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## Enigma SIG

Was it a compressor stall at the top end of the curve? Might be a bird-strike.


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## Esgalduin

Salza said:


> On Karachi roads, when ever we see young boys doing stunts on bikes, we don't cheer, we call them crazy, idiots and often say kub accident hoga na phir pata chaley ga. Same situation here. Just for the sake of few minutes entertainment, we end up losing a precious plane and a very skillful pilot. Now who is idiot here... Who will question paf chief... Well no body


Dumb of you to place the blame squarely on the chief's shoulders. 23rd March parade and flypast is a long established Pakistani tradition and is dictated more by political considerations than by the whims of the air chief. Furthermore, looking at stats may have caused the authorities to not err on the side of caution, given F16's relatively great safety record and the established precedent of a F16 solo demo.

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## SecularNationalist

Dazzler said:


> F-16s have ACES-2 ejection seats, not Martin Baker.
> 
> http://www.ejectionsite.com/f16seat.htm


Well whatever the point is unlike those Chinese ejection seats ,American seats in F-16s are extremely reliable.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Salza said:


> On Karachi roads, when ever we see young boys doing stunts on bikes, we don't cheer, we call them crazy, idiots and often say jub accident hoga na phir pata chaley ga. Same situation here. Just for the sake of few minutes entertainment, we end up losing a precious plane and a very skillful pilot. Now who is idiot here... Who will question paf chief... Well no body


Are down ratings only available for mods to give?

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## Caprxl

Salza said:


> We don't need valuable F16s during 23rd march air shows. Lesson learnt today.. Did we or not. This role should had been transfered to JF17s only because we can always produce a brand new Jf17 at will but not F16. Now let us mourn on our stupidity and sheer over confidence.


Brother brother brother , i cannot find a common ground with you so am going to end this discussion with you just by saying,

" _mistake or no mistake, *atleast try to honour your fallen brother*, he had d guts, d mind to reach in that Cockpit & sit there, he was there in those dark cold nights when none of us knew what was going on in d skies, he was there in broad day light when we enjoyed our victory & stop mourning over a fuc**** piece of equipment that can be replaced and accounted for but not d MAN "_

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## Salza

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> are you fine with loosing a great pilot even in a JF17?
> we will get new machines sooner or later, An F16 will get covered by two new JF17 during strike mission. Worst is lose of life, we lost an asset today, it doesn't matter which machine it was, it was the Pilot that deliveredt wrath to the enemy.....



I meant we don't need to perform daredevil moves often be it F16 or Jf17 but if our airforce management is bend on showing off every now and than atleast maintain care in using F16 or use Jf17 only. F16 use for airshows should had been banned long time back keeping their limited numbers in our inventory.

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## Haris Ali2140

Salza said:


> I meant we don't need to perform daredevil moves often be it F16 or Jf17 but if our airforce management is bend on showing off every now and than atleast maintain care in using F16 or use Jf17 only. F16 use for airshows should had been banned long time back keeping their limited numbers in our inventory.



These moves are norms during training and gunfights. Even more riskier moves are involved. Fighter Jet is a very very complex machine.


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## SecularNationalist



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## StormBreaker

Enigma SIG said:


> Was it a compressor stall at the top end of the curve? Might be a bird-strike.


Bird strike is always followed by a plasma of blood and debris out of the nozzle, not the case here...
The compressor stall is what i as well gave a thought to but the shallow loop seems better explanation

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## aliyusuf

*إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ*
Very sad news.
A loss indeed.
May Allah Grant the soul of the deceased ascension to Jannah and solace to his loved ones.

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## Amaa'n

StormBreaker said:


> Winner of Sher Afghan trophy as the *Best Marksman *is something that proves a Pilot’s worth, He was indeed a Huge Asset, All those years of practice and hardwork, Gone in a loop !!!
> 
> Machines can come again, and sooner F-16s will lose their worth in PAF, but our best assets are our Pilots.


indeed brother....he was best of the best and a gem.....that post by Salza is upsetting and disrespectful

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## Haris Ali2140

إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ‎

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## StormBreaker

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> indeed brother....he was best of the best and a gem.....that post by Salza is upsetting and disrespectful


Not to forget, it wasn’t Block 52 on 27 Feb but an average MLU.
But the success was due to our Pilots, not some Aircraft or it’s variants.
Even with F-7, it was our pilots that outsmarted the F-22 pilot. What more can i say now !!

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## Sine Nomine

اِنَّا لِلّٰہِ وَاِنَّآ اِلَیْہِ رَاجِعُوْن
That's a great loss indeed, a very precious countryman lost his life,nation lost a honed aviator and a national assets all in one go.
A very sad day.

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## alimobin memon

Enigma SIG said:


> Was it a compressor stall at the top end of the curve? Might be a bird-strike.


Imho engine stalled he went to low on speed with high angle manuever


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## StormBreaker

Another video, civilians couldn’t believe at first that it was indeed a crash

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237648530820431872

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237633596778782720
@Foxtrot Alpha @Hodor @The Eagle @SecularNationalist 

It does seem engine stall NOW

Just watch it closely, this is another video from a different angle.


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## Amaa'n

Salza said:


> I meant we don't need to perform daredevil moves often be it F16 or Jf17 but if our airforce management is bend on showing off every now and than atleast maintain care in using F16 or use Jf17 only. F16 use for airshows should had been banned long time back keeping their limited numbers in our inventory.


come'on brother, everyone here can see what you meant.

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## PakSword

Not very much concerned about F-16. Jets can be purchased right away, not the men who pilot them.

May Allah grant the pilot a high place in Jannah with all other Shuhada. 

Inna Lillah e wa Inna elaihe Raji'un

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## s@@d

StormBreaker said:


> Another video, civilians couldn’t believe at first that it was indeed a crash
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237648530820431872
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237633596778782720
> @Foxtrot Alpha @Hodor @The Eagle @SecularNationalist
> 
> It does seem engine stall NOW
> 
> Just watch it closely, this is another video from a different angle.


for a layman like me its looks he was not doing a maneuver... 
if some one could please update


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## SD 10

Time to start planning about f16 replacement. RIP, Paf lost a brave soul. Its about time now that we start thing about replacing old f16s.


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## Esgalduin

s@@d said:


> for a layman like me its looks he was not doing a maneuver...
> if some one could please update


It did look like a maneuver, what else does it look like to you? The video shows him completing a turn and then ascending to perform a loop. Upon coming down, the aircraft did not recover sufficiently and crashed.

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## Dark1

s@@d said:


> for a layman like me its looks he was not doing a maneuver...
> if some one could please update


He was doing a vertical dive . Either his starting height was low or he started the pull out late. The plane seems ok, it pulled out eventually.


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## Amaa'n



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## Talon

That's not a complete loop.He was performing a split S maneuver and I think altitude miscalculation is involved here, either by the pilot or the machine.

Two shaheed in one picture

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## maithil

Sad to lose a fighter pilot like this.


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## JackTheRipper

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237633124449820673
Yeh F16 tha ya Mushak ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237626056162541570


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## StormBreaker

Esgalduin said:


> It did look like a maneuver, what else does it look like to you? The video shows him completing a turn and then ascending to perform a loop. Upon coming down, the aircraft did not recover sufficiently and crashed.


Upon performing the maneuver, in the last quarter, engine seemed to stall, and the small turn he achieved later on was purely due to flaps and NOT engine.

Write my words down, Engine issue is in play here, either an issue or pilot error in a sense that he didn’t go up with the required thrust to perform maneuver but this is highly unlikely for Wing Commander and A Trophy winner recently...

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## Haris Ali2140

JackTheRipper said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237633124449820673
> Yeh F16 tha ya Mushak ?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237626056162541570


F-16.


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## Amaa'n

StormBreaker said:


> Another video, civilians couldn’t believe at first that it was indeed a crash
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237648530820431872
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237633596778782720
> @Foxtrot Alpha @Hodor @The Eagle @SecularNationalist
> 
> It does seem engine stall NOW
> 
> Just watch it closely, this is another video from a different angle.


Engine Stall but due to what? you are giving the immediate cause not the underlying factor....

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## StormBreaker

JackTheRipper said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237633124449820673
> Yeh F16 tha ya Mushak ?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237626056162541570


These wannabe jacka** experts should first watch the video clearly before tweeting shit


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## Esgalduin

Dark1 said:


> He was doing a vertical dive . Either his starting height was low or he started the pull out late. The plane seems ok, it pulled out eventually.


With high G maneuvers, loss of kinetic energy is a very real danger at lower altitudes. Even if the plane had managed to gain a decent angle of attack pulling out of a controlled dive, there is every possibility of it crashing due to loss of energy. There are videos of a French Mirage and Rafale pulling up at the end of a loop under 100 feet from the ground and still coming within a couple of feet from crashing.

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## iLION12345_1

Best not to make assumptions until the cause of the crash is confirmed. Especially in a disrespectful way as many do. Inna lillahi wa inna illihi rajioon.


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## Esgalduin

StormBreaker said:


> These wannabe jacka** experts should first watch the video clearly before tweeting shit


Sadly, this is what happens when blind nationalistic pride replaces actually using one's own eyes to determine what sort of aircraft it is. Agar JF17 bolta tou samajh mein aata because Viper and Thunder appear similar at a distance to the untrained eye, laikin ye tou alag darjay ka knee-jerk reaction hai.

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## PakSword

Please stop assuming things unless you are a pilot and fly/ have flown a F-16 yourself.

The real reason will be shared with public after investigation.


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## Esgalduin

StormBreaker said:


> Upon performing the maneuver, in the last quarter, engine seemed to stall, and the small turn he achieved later on was purely due to flaps and NOT engine.
> 
> Write my words down, Engine issue is in play here, either an issue or pilot error in a sense that he didn’t go up with the required thrust to perform maneuver but this is highly unlikely for Wing Commander and A Trophy winner recently...


Be that as it may, it is not unknown for skilled pilots to lose their lives performing risky maneuvers they have done hundreds of times before. I mean, even a slight relaxation of the muscles could very quickly lead to GLOC, especially at the 7 to 9 G levels and at merely a few hundred feet above the ground. Your reasoning is indeed sound, but it is also plausible (with all due respect to the Shaheed) that human error or miscalculation amounting to a fraction of a second could be the culprit.

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## StormBreaker

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Engine Stall but due to what? you are giving the immediate cause not the underlying factor....


Don’t know much deep about these things, but i do know that there are set parameters of thrust where one should perform so n so maneuvers. 

But upon viewing the video again and again, especially this one


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237629873658757123
Pilot error seems the best explanation and it is inter related with engine.

Notice when the aircraft starts to lose altitude and a second later you hear less engine sound but just the drag (speed of sound vs speed of light, stall first, sound disappears later), at the last quarter either engine wasn’t working or maybe the Maneuver had *a toll on the pilot, (unconsciousn)*

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## litman

StormBreaker said:


> Not to forget, it wasn’t Block 52 on 27 Feb but an average MLU.
> But the success was due to our Pilots, not some Aircraft or it’s variants.
> Even with F-7, it was our pilots that outsmarted the F-22 pilot. What more can i say now !!


success was due to Allah almighty. i dont know when we will realise this.

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## KhanBaba2

RIP


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## Esgalduin

PakSword said:


> Please stop assuming things unless you are a pilot and fly/ have flown a F-16 yourself.
> 
> The real reason will be shared with public after investigation.



You are correct in that it is rude, arrogant, and ignorant to second-guess Noman Akram Shaheed's caliber and decision making considering that none of us are pilots but there is nothing wrong with respectfully discussing the various possible causes of the crash based on a basic understanding of how maneuvers like these work. These discussions about how this happened will not abate until an official report has been released, after which they will undoubtedly transition to why this crash happened. It is unavoidable.


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## Amaa'n

StormBreaker said:


> Don’t know much deep about these things, but i do know that there are set parameters of thrust where one should perform so n so maneuvers.
> 
> But upon viewing the video again and again, especially this one
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237629873658757123
> Pilot error seems the best explanation and it is inter related with engine.
> 
> Notice when the aircraft starts to lose altitude and a second later you hear less engine sound but just the drag (speed of sound vs speed of light, stall first, sound disappears later), at the last quarter either engine wasn’t working or maybe the Maneuver had *a toll on the pilot, (unconsciousn)*


don't go by the sound in Vid, there will always be a gap die to time and distance variations......we can presume only at the this.It could be compressor stall, Engine failure due to FOD, poor service due to routine flights and exceeding parameters multiple times or G lock....
those saying it was altitude miscalculation need to consider the tact, Pilot in Question was an OC and a Wg Cmder.....f16 was like his baby......he knew what he was doing

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## Invictus.inc

StormBreaker said:


> Not to forget, it wasn’t Block 52 on 27 Feb but an average MLU.
> But the success was due to our Pilots, not some Aircraft or it’s variants.
> Even with F-7, it was our pilots that outsmarted the F-22 pilot. What more can i say now !!


You must be kidding me F7 outsmarting an F22


StormBreaker said:


> Not to forget, it wasn’t Block 52 on 27 Feb but an average MLU.
> But the success was due to our Pilots, not some Aircraft or it’s variants.
> Even with F-7, it was our pilots that outsmarted the F-22 pilot. What more can i say now !!


Where exactly did you get this info about an F7 outsmarting an F22
Kindly post an authentic link

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## PakShaheen79

Inna Lillah hi Wa inna Alihe Rajioon. It is double loss. F-16 along with a very skilled pilot. May Allah Almighty give sabr and strength to family member of deceased WC. Please recite Fatiah for departed soul.

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## Mrc

May Allah bless his soul


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## Amaa'n

@StormBreaker if i was to take a word from an Independent and neutral individual, it would be from Fatima Shafi.....Former PAF Engineer, commanded the F16 Engineering Sqd....her input would be valuable, if u can reach out to her on her IG


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## Talon

StormBreaker said:


> Not to forget, it wasn’t Block 52 on 27 Feb but an average MLU.
> But the success was due to our Pilots, not some Aircraft or it’s variants.
> Even with F-7, it was our pilots that outsmarted the F-22 pilot. What more can i say now !!


The Fuk? F-7 was brutally beaten by the F-22s.

Also you are totally quoting wrong information about the today's crash.

Kindly avoid spreading wrong information.

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## SecularNationalist

StormBreaker said:


> Another video, civilians couldn’t believe at first that it was indeed a crash
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237648530820431872.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237633596778782720
> @Foxtrot Alpha @Hodor @The Eagle @SecularNationalist
> 
> It does seem engine stall NOW
> 
> Just watch it closely, this is another video from a different angle.


Maybe but still most chances are it's a human error.Because pilots are trained to eject in a heartbeat in a engine failure situation.
And I think cloudy weather and poor visibility also played a role in this incident.


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## litman

learn lessons from it. PAF entered the last 23 march parade with lot of pride at the success they achieved by the help of Allah almighty but they owed it mostly their "training and professionalism" and bragged about it through the entire year. words like "invincible" were used in documentaries and now 4 crashes in just 3 months. today unfortunately their best jet flown by their best pilot crashed just while preparing for a day which is meant to demonstrate the military capability of a country. where is this "training and professionalism" now? its time to do some soul searching specially by the PAF. 
what's the fun of having this circus again and again on so many days in a year? today PAF is one short of their most capable platform and pilot and for what? they had this circus recently in last month. can a poor country afford a parade like this every year?
please read is Quran about the details of ghazwa e hunain. that was the first battle in which muslims had numerical superiority over their enemies and some of them became over confident of their capabilities. the battle started and the enemy surprised them and majority of them retreated but then the Prophet called them and the muslims realised their mistake . as a muslim we should keep our horses ready all the time. take every step to be battle ready all the time and then rely entirely on help by Allah almighty. and once victory is achieved we need to be humble and be thankful to Allah alone. 
so last year Allah took the PAF to the skies by giving them a vicrory and now i think He is bringing them to the ground.
we must be professional, well equipped , well trained, confident ,brave but Humble as after all we are just humans and not God.

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## Windjammer

Really sad news and a tragic loss.
From the videos, i have received, it's obvious that either the pilot couldn't pull out of the loop or passed out during the High-g maneuver....

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## American Pakistani

Very very sad incident. 

Rest in peace.


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## Basel

StormBreaker said:


> Don’t know much deep about these things, but i do know that there are set parameters of thrust where one should perform so n so maneuvers.
> 
> But upon viewing the video again and again, especially this one
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237629873658757123
> Pilot error seems the best explanation and it is inter related with engine.
> 
> Notice when the aircraft starts to lose altitude and a second later you hear less engine sound but just the drag (speed of sound vs speed of light, stall first, sound disappears later), at the last quarter either engine wasn’t working or maybe the Maneuver had *a toll on the pilot, (unconsciousn)*



Why pilot didn't ejected??? Its very tragic and sad incident.


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## Windjammer

Same pilot who flew the Army Chief late last year.

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## Adam_Khan

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Engine Stall but due to what? you are giving the immediate cause not the underlying factor....


 There is no such thing as an engine stall there,first he was flying too low and then he exited the loop too early,it's almost a mirror image of the Thunderbirds F.16 crash except under different circumstances.

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## dexter

*اِنَّا لِلّٰہِ وَاِنَّآ اِلَیْہِ رَاجِعُوْنَ*

May ALLAH S.W.T. grant him highest reward in Jannah.

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## Haris Ali2140

Adam_Khan said:


> There is no such thing as an engine stall there,first he was flying too low and then he exited the loop too early,it's almost a mirror image of the Thunderbirds F.16 crash except under different circumstances.


Video or any reference to that vid please.


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## Adam_Khan

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Video or any reference to that vid please.


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## The Eagle

Whatever the reasons are for the cause of crash; PAF as already announced Board of Enquiry, will surely find out and lesson will be learnt accordingly. PAF is a professional force among the best and know how to conduct such business. It will be better to let them professionals find out and we shouldn't be speculating in this regard.

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## Haris Ali2140

Adam_Khan said:


>


Thanks.


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## Darth Vader

Ina Lila


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## Trailer23

Adam_Khan said:


> He did eject,saw a picture of his body don't want to post it here but looks like he died because of head injuries.


Well, if what you claim is true - than I find it difficult to believe that he had passed out due to High G's at such low altitude and manage to bail out.

He probably tried to heroically attempt to recover/save the Jet & (eventually) punched out too late.

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## Windjammer

Arsalan 345 said:


> .


What nonsense you are blabbering....think before you post.....do you think they allow anyone to fly what they want....he was best of the best.

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## graphican

May Allah bless his soul and give him the best reward for his service and efforts for the Nation. It is an institutional and a National loss.

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## JonAsad

Allah maghfirat fermaye .. Ameen.
I am no expert but it seems to me pilot lost conscious -


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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237648269079166976

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## Windjammer

Here's another Thunderbird incident where the pilot failed to pull out of the loop...to the naked eye, it looks that the jet should be able to pull up but it's descending quicker than it can lift.

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## airomerix

It was hard for me to wake up to this news today.

Not because we lost a jet, but the pilot itself.

Block 70's will come, Nauman Akram will not.

I would urge all members to not reach conclusions and try to hold PAF accountable for 'using' F-16. It has been a tradition since decades and we all have enjoyed it without asking any questions before. USAF fields F-22's and RAF is using F-35's now after showcasing Typhoons. It is an absurd notion to disinvent this idea of F-16s in a parade just because something supposedly 'unthinkable' happened.

It was never unthinkable. Whenever these guys up there they know the risk. They perceive, understand and accept it. It is our emotional attachment with the F-16 as forum members which is sparking all this debate.

Every once in a while, history is made, machines malfunction, people are lost. This is exactly what has happened.

Nothing wrong with speculating 'what went wrong'. It appears to be a classic G LOC case (if not pilot error). However, until black box is decoded, verified and accident investigated, we cannot say for sure what happened.

Accept it. Stay humble. And move on.

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## Amaa'n

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237648269079166976


what!!! are they interested to sell us something

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## JonAsad

Shaheed Pilot..





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2744965378944072









__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2744952538945356

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## StormBreaker

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> what!!! are they interested to sell us something


Quite surprising indeed... Last place to expect for condolences and that too at earliest...



JonAsad said:


> Shaheed Pilot..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2744965378944072
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2744952538945356


May Allah Give him Highest Rank in Jannah Ul Firdous and Give Patience to His Family.

Proud Warrior !!!

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## JonAsad

StormBreaker said:


> Last place to expect for condolences and that too at earliest...


Customary..


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## Devil Soul

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237665730646204417


----------



## GriffinsRule

You can see the entire video along with the explanation of what happened.

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## Windjammer



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## GriffinsRule



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## Caprxl

airomerix said:


> _*Block 70's will come, Nauman Akram will not.*_



Well you just summed it up, some fellow members can't just get it into their heads.



airomerix said:


> Accept it. Stay humble. And move on.



Only thing that makes us bear our loss is that The Guy is now at Peace, one day we will meet him for sure IA,, not here but hereafter.

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## Haris Ali2140

GriffinsRule said:


> You can see the entire video along with the explanation of what happened.


Just because he was at the wrong airport.


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## NA71

Salute to Shaheed Bro

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## Maxpane

i feel like i have lost my brother today . No words can describe my feelings to day

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## sohail.ishaque

litman said:


> learn lessons from it. PAF entered the last 23 march parade with lot of pride at the success they achieved by the help of Allah almighty but they owed it mostly their "training and professionalism" and bragged about it through the entire year. words like "invincible" were used in documentaries and now 4 crashes in just 3 months. today unfortunately their best jet flown by their best pilot crashed just while preparing for a day which is meant to demonstrate the military capability of a country. where is this "training and professionalism" now? its time to do some soul searching specially by the PAF.
> what's the fun of having this circus again and again on so many days in a year? today PAF is one short of their most capable platform and pilot and for what? they had this circus recently in last month. can a poor country afford a parade like this every year?
> please read is Quran about the details of ghazwa e hunain. that was the first battle in which muslims had numerical superiority over their enemies and some of them became over confident of their capabilities. the battle started and the enemy surprised them and majority of them retreated but then the Prophet called them and the muslims realised their mistake . as a muslim we should keep our horses ready all the time. take every step to be battle ready all the time and then rely entirely on help by Allah almighty. and once victory is achieved we need to be humble and be thankful to Allah alone.
> so last year Allah took the PAF to the skies by giving them a vicrory and now i think He is bringing them to the ground.
> we must be professional, well equipped , well trained, confident ,brave but Humble as after all we are just humans and not God.



This is the best post on this thread.. 

But i feel real sorry for our brother Noman. May Allah give him high ranks in Jannat. Ameen

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## airomerix

Aircraft serial number - 92-730 - 'A' model MLU.

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## Windjammer

A Shaheed's Last Salute.

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## Zhukov

Great loss to PAF. Our Pilots are one of the best in the world. Its hard to replace them. May Allah Bless your sole Comrade.
On the other hand Any Future Procurement by PAF should come with local Assembly like JF17. Off the shelf purchases should be discouraged. Replacement can be a nightmare in war time situation in that case.

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## NA71

sohail.ishaque said:


> This is the best post on this thread..
> 
> But i feel real sorry for our brother Noman. May Allah give him high ranks in Jannat. Ameen



Exactly, may Allah please forgive us for any thing which falls under the category of Arrogance which Allah never allows.

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## aliyusuf

airomerix said:


> Aircraft serial number - 92-730 - 'A' model MLU.


That would mean both EDA single seat have now cashed. 
The other one crashed on 17th Jul 2009. 
Sadder still is the loss of an extraordinary aviator.


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## litman

sohail.ishaque said:


> This is the best post on this thread..
> 
> But i feel real sorry for our brother Noman. May Allah give him high ranks in Jannat. Ameen


i am really feeling sad for him but i am sure he will rest in paradise for ever by the grace of Allah almighty. cant even imagine the feelings he had just before hitting the ground at such a high speed. tried to save the bird till last moment.

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## Haris Ali2140

aliyusuf said:


> That would mean both EDA single seat have now cashed.
> The other one crashed on 17th Jul 2009.
> Sadder still is the loss of an extraordinary aviator.


What's EDA???


----------



## aliyusuf

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What's EDA???


Excess Defense Articles


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## sherdil76

On this picture it clearly visible that plane hit the high tension wires (which are crosses shakarparrian beside parade ground) 
Did PAF briefed the pilot Noman about those, even the planed dipped quite fast and steeped but he might have ejected safely if plane would not have hit the wires


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## Foxtrot Delta

Sad day for pakistan and pakistan air force. From Allah we come and to him is our return. armed forces people are ready to lay their lives for country and country men each minute of their lives.

i think he blacked out and lost conciousness for a few seconds after those high G turns. this has happened alot in Aggressive flying especially in Turkey, United states and Russia. i think pilot blacked out but could be a technical fault on single engine of F16 too. i wonder if it was old F16 or the C Block 52+. 

feel sad for nauman akram's family wing commander a salute to you. i would take ur place gladly any day. made us proud. May Allah keep you with Him. Ameen.


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## The Eagle

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> what!!! are they interested to sell us something



A diplomatic approach but that quick, is indeed interesting. Wait for it...

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## sherdil76

On this picture it clearly visible that plane hit the high tension wires (which cross shakarparrian beside parade ground)
Did PAF briefed the pilot Noman about those, even the plane dipped quite fast and angel was steep but he might have ejected safely if plane would not have hit those wires


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


----------



## Amaa'n

Foxtrot Delta said:


> Sad day for pakistan and pakistan air force. From Allah we come and to him is our return. armed forces people are ready to lay their lives for country and country men each minute of their lives.
> 
> i think he blacked out and lost conciousness for a few seconds after those high G turns. this has happened alot in Aggressive flying especially in Turkey, United states and Russia. i think pilot blacked out but could be a technical fault on single engine of F16 too. i wonder if it was old F16 or the C Block 52+.
> 
> feel sad for nauman akram's family wing commander a salute to you. i would take ur place gladly any day. made us proud. May Allah keep you with Him. Ameen.


F16A -MLU'ed

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## Foxtrot Delta

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> F16A -MLU'ed


oh earliest model. its good for aerobatics. solo turk also flies the same.


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## airomerix

A similar crash took place at Sargodha in 1983 involving an F-6. 

Lessons need to be relearned.

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## Adam_Khan

airomerix said:


> A similar crash took place at Sargodha in 1983 involving an F-6.
> 
> Lessons need to be relearned.



Are you talking about the incident where Wing Commander Hasnaat crashed while performing aerobatics in Sarghoda.

I agree they didn't learn a lesson.


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## Path-Finder

*انا لله وانا اليه راجعون*

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## Adam_Khan

Sad to say this but in the year 2020 Pakistan airforce is second only to Syrian airforce in attrition rate. 4 crashes in 3 months and three precious lives lost.


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## Windjammer

Adam_Khan said:


> Are you talking about the incident where Wing Commander Hasnaat crashed while performing aerobatics in Sarghoda.
> 
> I agree they didn't learn a lesson.


If i remember last time a crash occurred in connection to Pakistan day parade was a Mirage that went down due to a bird strike in 1987 flypast....so let's not deposit all incidents in today's tragedy.

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## NA71

Crash Site

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237637018890403840


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## Adam_Khan

Windjammer said:


> If i remember last time a crash occurred in connection to Pakistan day parade was a Mirage that went down due to a bird strike in 1987 flypast....so let's not deposit all incidents in today's tragedy.



Talking about a crash that happened at Paf sarghoda when an experienced pilot crashed while performing aerobatics,same story and no lesson was learnt.


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## Windjammer

Adam_Khan said:


> Talking about a crash that happened at Paf sarghoda when an experienced pilot crashed while performing aerobatics,same story and no lesson was learnt.


What possible lessons could be learnt knowing that crashes during airshows or during aerobatics are quite common...the only lesson one can draw is be like the Indian airforce and do a simple flypast.

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## Adam_Khan

Windjammer said:


> What possible lessons could be learnt knowing that crashes during airshows or during aerobatics are quite common...the only lesson one can draw is be like the Indian airforce and do a simple flypast.



Which is perfectly safe!


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## truthfollower

very very sad news RIP our great pilot.


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## Windjammer

Adam_Khan said:


> Which is perfectly safe!


And i suppose they never suffer any crashes due to such measures.

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## Adam_Khan

After they lost a Mirage 2000 in a flypast in late 80's,they stopped aerobatics and haven't suffered a loss atleast during rehearsals/national day parades.

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## Amavous

Windjammer said:


> the only lesson one can draw is be like the Indian airforce and do a simple flypast.



That's not a bad lesson to learn IMHO. Imagine for a minute that this plane could have fallen on the civilian population and then what would have happened?

Crashes happen but it has consequences remember the Pak army aviation plane that crashed on houses last year in Rawalpindi and more than 15 people were burnt while in sleep with no dead bodies left to bury even. If incident like that can be avoided then it should be avoided

Honing skills is one thing but showboating should not be encouraged.

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## StormBreaker



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## Windjammer

Adam_Khan said:


> After they lost a Mirage 2000 in a flypast in late 80's,they stopped aerobatics and haven't suffered a loss atleast during rehearsals/national day parades.


And last year couple of their Hawks collided while rehearsing for an airshow.
I agree PAF is doing the aerobatics too often, perhaps they should do the rehearsals for them elsewhere.

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## StormBreaker

It’s so good to see the deceased Pilot trending everywhere, everyone is posting, Government, Private organizations, cricketers, celebrities


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## Windjammer

Not sure if the F-16 hit the high tension cables in the area or crashed into a pylon as this image suggests.


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## StormBreaker

NA71 said:


> Crash Site
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237637018890403840


@Windjammer Do you think TST guys are also involved in cleaning the F-16 debris to avoid smuggle of technology ?


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## Zarvan

#NomanAkram May ALLAH grant you highest place in Jannah and with shifat of RASOOL SAW. You lived like a Momin and had left this world as a martyr !!!! May ALLAH accept it Ameen. #F16Crash #PakistanAirforce #Pakairforce

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## Adam_Khan

Windjammer said:


> And last year couple of their Hawks collided while rehearsing for an airshow.
> I agree PAF is doing the aerobatics too often, perhaps they should do the rehearsals for them elsewhere.



I knew you'd talk about the hawks but if you could just read my post again i specifically talked about national day flypasts.

To be honest,the airforce needs to stop putting the lives of it's pilots in danger by unnecessary airshows.
Peace

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## Viper27

Amavous said:


> That's not a bad lesson to learn IMHO. Imagine for a minute that this plane could have fallen on the civilian population and then what would have happened?
> 
> Crashes happen but it has consequences remember the Pak army aviation plane that crashed on houses last year in Rawalpindi and more than 15 people were burnt while in sleep with no dead bodies left to bury even. If incident like that can be avoided then it should be avoided
> 
> Honing skills is one thing but showboating should not be encouraged.



Based on that logic most air forces should stop aerobatics because of the inherent risk that it carries. Yet most go on in spite similar tragedies. On that logic PAF should also cut down on combat pilot training because there's a risk of an accident at such high speed and altitude. Noman Akram was PAF's cream of the crop so there was no "showboating" going on. Every maneuver is carefully calibrated and planned. We still do not know what happened. But everyone on PDF is either a military expert or appears to have foresight of everything even before the details are out..this is apparent from the ludicrous comments on "no lessons learnt". Every thread goes into hundreds of pages but there are only a small proportion of comments or insights worth reading. The army aviation aircraft that crashed last year has absolutely nothing to do with today's tragedy. Strange you are even comparing the two as if the aviation pilots were performing aerobatics that day.

What happened today was a tragedy that is hard to express. Its the sort of news you do not want to hear. We lost a crucial aircraft but that loss will be made up in due course. The loss of our best pilot will be hard to fill. Stopping F-16 aerobatics after this accident because we are too afraid of losing an aircraft only reflects fear and lack of confidence in your pilots, technicians and equipment.

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## Riz

I am so sad for the lost of brave pilot.. We can buy a new jet but we will never get back our brave pilot again

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## usman012

It looks like he miscalculated the altitude and speed. He was too speedy with minimum altitude. No altitude to recover at such high speed.

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## Windjammer

Adam_Khan said:


> I knew you'd talk about the hawks but if you could just read my post again i specifically talked about national day flypasts.
> 
> To be honest,the airforce needs to stop putting the lives of it's pilots in danger by unnecessary airshows.
> Peace


But then again, the Mirage wasn't lost on their national day flypast....it failed to come out of a loop during airforce day aerobatics over a base.
But yes i agree, a simple flypast is sufficient for Pakistan day parade.

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## Ghessan

this soul had to depart, time is the deciding factor, انا لله وانا اليه راجعون we will have discussions for a long since pages have been consumed so far, our men matter to us and we owe them big for their services, we salute.

he will be remembered forever like others that we always remember. to this prominent and humble soul and those heroes, our sons we do not forget them who stay alert for the safety of this holy land and its people.

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## airomerix

Viper27 said:


> Based on that logic most air forces should stop aerobatics because of the inherent risk that it carries. Yet most go on in spite similar tragedies. On that logic PAF should also cut down on combat pilot training because there's a risk of an accident at such high speed and altitude. Noman Akram was PAF's cream of the crop so there was no "showboating" going on. Every maneuver is carefully calibrated and planned. We still do not know what happened. But everyone on PDF is either a military expert or appears to have foresight of everything even before the details are out..this is apparent from the ludicrous comments on "no lessons learnt". Every thread goes into hundreds of pages but there are only a small proportion of comments or insights worth reading. The army aviation aircraft that crashed last year has absolutely nothing to do with today's tragedy. Strange you are even comparing the two as if the aviation pilots were performing aerobatics that day.
> 
> What happened today was a tragedy that is hard to express. Its the sort of news you do not want to hear. We lost a crucial aircraft but that loss will be made up in due course. The loss of our best pilot will be hard to fill. Stopping F-16 aerobatics after this accident because we are too afraid of losing an aircraft only reflects fear and lack of confidence in your pilots, technicians and equipment.



Well said. 

A piece of somewhat better news is that the body has been recovered intact Alhamdullilah. 

The aircraft didn't hit in a complete nose dive. It was a belly hit. 

Janaza of Wg. Cmdr Nauman Akram is to be held at AHQ, Islamabad at Maghrib.

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## Amavous

Viper27 said:


> The army aviation aircraft that crashed last year has absolutely nothing to do with today's tragedy. Strange you are even comparing the two as if the aviation pilots were performing aerobatics that day.



I was not comparing both crashes. I am just stressing the point that today's crash as bad it is could have been worst if any damage on ground happened which was a real possibility given that it was a populated area.

And all that risk for what? putting up a daring show for the masses, does it worth it? all this after knowing that most of our hardware is old and hard to come by and lives lost are irreplaceable


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## Kingslayerr

Waste of a precisous life, irreplaceable experience, and our main jet just for the sake of power showcasing, fun and games. RIP


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## Windjammer

@Adam_Khan 



*Jet Fighter Crashes During Exhibition Flight, Killing Pilot*
SHARON HERBAUGHOctober 8, 1989






NEW DELHI, India (AP) _ A Mirage 2000 fighter jet crashed and exploded Sunday during a final acrobatic maneuver on Indian Air Force Day, killing the pilot who had attempted an extra roll, officials said.

No one on the ground was killed, but some of the 2,000 spectators suffered sprained ankles or bruises running to or from the site, they said.

The silver delta-winged aircraft of French design was completing a climb known as a ″Vertical Charlie″ when it plunged to the ground about 300 yards from a reviewing stand at Palam Airport in west New Delhi.



Military and civilian dignitaries, journalists and other guests had watched the parade of 650 enlisted men and an aerial display.



The pilot, identified as Wing Commander Ramesh Bakshi, the 39-year-old commander of the Mirage squadron, was killed instantly, Air Force Chief Marshal S.K. Mehra said.



He told reporters the accident apparently was caused by ″an error in judgment.″



Mehra said the sky was hazy and may have disoriented Bakshi. The plane was about 18 feet from the ground when the pilot tried the maneuver, he said.



The Mirage was completing the final flyby during the parade marking the 57th anniversary of the Indian air force and honoring its 115,000 officers.



Air Marshal N.C. Suri, vice chief of the air staff, said Bakshi was only supposed to perform three rolls in the finale. Instead, the officer said, he attempted four.



The plane made a steep climb, then descended making three loops and rolls, he said. After failing to complete a fourth roll, the pilot was unable to pull out of the descent and the plane hurtled to the ground, he said.



Some spectators gasped and several air force wives ran toward the burning wreckage.



The aircraft slammed into the ground, exploded and bounced three times through fuel tanks, igniting a huge fireball. Several vehicles parked in the area were badily damaged by the burning chunks.



The Mirage is capable of flying up to 1,460 miles an hour at an altitude of 65,600 feet.



The Indian air force bought 49 Mirage 2000 planes between 1982 and 1986.


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## Adam_Khan

Viper27 said:


> Based on that logic most air forces should stop aerobatics because of the inherent risk that it carries. Yet most go on in spite similar tragedies. On that logic PAF should also cut down on combat pilot training because there's a risk of an accident at such high speed and altitude. Noman Akram was PAF's cream of the crop so there was no "showboating" going on. Every maneuver is carefully calibrated and planned. We still do not know what happened. But everyone on PDF is either a military expert or appears to have foresight of everything even before the details are out..this is apparent from the ludicrous comments on "no lessons learnt". Every thread goes into hundreds of pages but there are only a small proportion of comments or insights worth reading. The army aviation aircraft that crashed last year has absolutely nothing to do with today's tragedy. Strange you are even comparing the two as if the aviation pilots were performing aerobatics that day.
> 
> What happened today was a tragedy that is hard to express. Its the sort of news you do not want to hear. We lost a crucial aircraft but that loss will be made up in due course. The loss of our best pilot will be hard to fill. Stopping F-16 aerobatics after this accident because we are too afraid of losing an aircraft only reflects fear and lack of confidence in your pilots, technicians and equipment.



Losing the OC of the most elite squadron in the airforce and that too in low level aerobatics is certainly more avoidable..

Just so you guys know a US marine corps CO was fired recently just because he flew as GIBS during a flypast where he flew low and fast,might be wrong here but the only way to prevent accidents is strict accountability and not this faith that you'd get away with it.

I'm talking about all this because I've got a brother who flies fighters for the airforce and I won't want any family to lose it's near and dear ones in preventable accidents like this.

Here is the link.
https://www.military.com/daily-news...ing-too-low-and-too-fast-during-ceremony.html

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## NeonNinja

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un

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## litman

Viper27 said:


> Based on that logic most air forces should stop aerobatics because of the inherent risk that it carries. Yet most go on in spite similar tragedies. On that logic PAF should also cut down on combat pilot training because there's a risk of an accident at such high speed and altitude. Noman Akram was PAF's cream of the crop so there was no "showboating" going on. Every maneuver is carefully calibrated and planned. We still do not know what happened. But everyone on PDF is either a military expert or appears to have foresight of everything even before the details are out..this is apparent from the ludicrous comments on "no lessons learnt". Every thread goes into hundreds of pages but there are only a small proportion of comments or insights worth reading. The army aviation aircraft that crashed last year has absolutely nothing to do with today's tragedy. Strange you are even comparing the two as if the aviation pilots were performing aerobatics that day.
> 
> What happened today was a tragedy that is hard to express. Its the sort of news you do not want to hear. We lost a crucial aircraft but that loss will be made up in due course. The loss of our best pilot will be hard to fill. Stopping F-16 aerobatics after this accident because we are too afraid of losing an aircraft only reflects fear and lack of confidence in your pilots, technicians and equipment.


air shows and aerobatics do have a purpose. they attract the youth towards joining air force. so they are not purposeless at all. but being a resource constrained air force of a poor country PAF should reduce the frequency of carrying out such displays. we cant afford losing our most capable jets in public displays. right now F-16 is the most capable jet in the PAF and there seems to be no chance of getting any more of these birds and even if we get them we will have to pay a lot. we should not stop this at all but act maturely and reduce the frequency of such events. pakistan is not russia or USA who are producing the jets at a large scale.


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## Cuirassier

G Loc as he would've bailed out if conscious.


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## Adam_Khan

TF141 said:


> G Loc as he would've bailed out if conscious.


He ejected but did not survive,could have posted the picture of his body here but that would be too offensive so won't.

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## NeonNinja

I pray to Allah to give enough strength to his family members to bear this profound grief and may the departed soul rest in peace.

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## Windjammer

Another theory doing rounds is that it was a bird strike,


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## Cuirassier

Didnt see any ejection, are there any videos?


Adam_Khan said:


> He ejected but did not survive,could have posted the picture of his body here but that would be too offensive so won't.


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## Windjammer

TF141 said:


> Didnt see any ejection, are there any videos?


None of the videos are clear to show the last few seconds before the crash....however it's known that sometimes the pilot is thrown clear upon impact....happened to one of our F-104 pilots during 1965 and a British Hunter pilot more recently.


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## loanranger

Big loss loosing him. I don't care about the jet.However, things should continue as they have always. High risk profession for a reason.


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## StormBreaker

airomerix said:


> Well said.
> 
> A piece of somewhat better news is that the body has been recovered intact Alhamdullilah.
> 
> The aircraft didn't hit in a complete nose dive. It was a belly hit.
> 
> Janaza of Wg. Cmdr Nauman Akram is to be held at AHQ, Islamabad at Maghrib.


Belly hit !!!
Nothing else that resembles the thunderbird incident...

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## Sc0lar_Vis@ri

Sad for any soldier to go like this. RIP and may God give strength to his family to get through this tough time.

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## StormBreaker

airomerix said:


> Well said.
> 
> A piece of somewhat better news is that the body has been recovered intact Alhamdullilah.
> 
> The aircraft didn't hit in a complete nose dive. It was a belly hit.
> 
> Janaza of Wg. Cmdr Nauman Akram is to be held at AHQ, Islamabad at Maghrib.


Bro, is it true that he ejected in the last moment but had serious head injuries ?


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## M.AsfandYar

Adam_Khan said:


> After they lost a Mirage 2000 in a flypast in late 80's,they stopped aerobatics and haven't suffered a loss atleast during rehearsals/national day parades.


They did last year. 2


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## Enigma SIG

Best way to honor the fallen pilot would be to do a missing man formation on the 23rd. No aerobatics no funny stuff.

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## SecularNationalist

Update: Some people are saying the pilot was trying to move away his troubled jet from the population area,that's why he was unable to eject.
But it doesn't seem like that in those videos.
The fighter was already above jungle area when the jet was already working fine.And that steep dive doesn't show the pilot was doing anything to move the jet away from populated area.
Your thoughts?

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## Maarkhoor

Enigma SIG said:


> Best way to honor the fallen pilot would be to do a missing man formation on the 23rd. No aerobatics no funny stuff.


Aerobatics are part of training it is / was basically designed to teach how to avoid AAM and to perfect dog fights.

Because of single accident and without proper investigation we should not say any thing about the incident.

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## Enigma SIG

SecularNationalist said:


> Update: Some people are saying the pilot was trying to move away his troubled jet from the population area,that's why he was unable to eject.
> But it doesn't seem like that in those videos.
> The fighter was already above jungle area when the jet was already working fine.And that steep dive doesn't show the pilot was doing anything to move the jet away from populated area.
> Your thoughts?


Shakarparian is a jungle; but you have population all around it. Not so close but in a jet; distances are covered quite fast. Seems in the pictures the aircraft fell by some power lines; no word on if they were hit.

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## blain2

I felt the weather and overcast skies had a hand in this. These aerobatics are a bit too risky in populated centers. They should just stick to flybys. Very unfortunate loss of a gem of a fighter pilot and a very expensive asset. God bless and Inna lillahi wa inna alaihi rajaoun.

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## Enigma SIG

Maarkhoor said:


> Aerobatics are part of training it is / was basically designed to teach how to avoid AAM and to perfect dog fights.
> 
> Because of single accident and without proper investigation we should not say any thing about the incident.


In light of the accident; just a missing man formation would do to pay our respects. Lets not pretend it didn't happen.

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## The Eagle

Adam_Khan said:


> Losing the OC of the most elite squadron in the airforce and that too in low level aerobatics is certainly more avoidable..
> 
> Just so you guys know a US marine corps CO was fired recently just because he flew as GIBS during a flypast where he flew low and fast,might be wrong here but the only way to prevent accidents is strict accountability and not this faith that you'd get away with it.
> 
> I'm talking about all this because I've got a brother who flies fighters for the airforce and I won't want any family to lose it's near and dear ones in preventable accidents like this.
> 
> Here is the link.
> https://www.military.com/daily-news...ing-too-low-and-too-fast-during-ceremony.html



Only thing that can prevent from such incidents is, stop flying at all. The risk factor is always there and enquiry isn't concluded yet. Lest not make it like an irresponsible flypast at all. Anything could happen and no one is irresponsible for not playing by the book. Be it an airshow, fly past or whatever, the risk is always there but wold does not ends at that for professionals. I really hope to see a period from this discussion.

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## blain2

litman said:


> so what should be the gameplan for PAF now? should they continue as planned or be careful. IMO they should ask Allah for forgiveness and be humble in the first place. they became very arrogant after 27 feb thing. IAF before 27 feb were very arroganat and faced the consequences and PAF became arrogant after 27 so Allah has taught both the parties to act like humans do. pride is only for Allah .coming back to PAF 's response. they should come back to the ground. ask for forgiveness. go as planned this year. put another F-16 display giving the notion that they are not afraid of death and keep up the morale of their men high . and in future reduce the number of such circuses. 4 jets lost in 3 months. its not acceptable.


What does arrogance have to do with this?

Its fighter flying and its a risky business. Don't mix two things when they are not connected. Whether 27 Feb happened or not, this aerobatic flying would have gone on in celebration of March 23rd.

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## Trailer23

StormBreaker said:


> Bro, is it true that he ejected in the last moment but had serious head injuries ?


We've all seen the video(s) from different angles. There was a massive fire ball behind the trees.

Had he not of ejected, I doubt his body would've been in condition of a proper burial.

He most certainly must've ejected (at a low height). That & the angle of the jet - vertical. I doubt his chute had fully deployed, (if) it even did.

I believe his injuries on impact possible led to his unfortunate death.

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## HAIDER

anything can happened to any machine . Last year F16 crash .

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## Nomad40

To all the members who do not have the slightest experience of: flying, maneuvers, employment of tactics, have never been to flight school, are not or were not part of a air force flight training program (I dont think we have any active duty), do not know the alif baa taa of real world cockpit, evasive maneuvers, do not know and have never been in situation where it is life or death, have never even seen the eternal of the cockpit, have never been close to an active fighter jet, I please request all members who are saying "lesson was not learn" "using f-16 in an airshow was not a good idea" "flying maneuvers for f16 is risky" "only jft should do airshows" It is my humble request to please be rational, respectful and please understand that if you fly the danger is always there no matter what you do Wing commander Nauman (shaheed)is SHER AFGHAN, He was a warrior who had been train to do tasks that some people think are dangerous, he was trained to be a fighter pilot and all PAF pilots they train hard to fly and the fly to fight and they fight to kill and that is it. 

I am very disappointed in attitudes towards this accident by some members (truly brings the true colors of cowardice, lack of knowledge and just sheer inhumane extrinsic school of thought)

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## Maarkhoor




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## Adam_Khan

Windjammer said:


> None of the videos are clear to show the last few seconds before the crash....however it's known that sometimes the pilot is thrown clear upon impact....happened to one of our F-104 pilots during 1965 and a British Hunter pilot more recently.





Trailer23 said:


> We've all seen the video(s) from different angles. There was a massive fire ball behind the trees.
> 
> Had he not of ejected, I doubt his body would've been in condition of a proper burial.
> 
> He most certainly must've ejected (at a low height). That & the angle of the jet - vertical. I doubt his chute had fully deployed, (if) it even did.
> 
> I believe his injuries on impact possible led to his unfortunate death.



His body is completely intact and looks like he died of head injuries.

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## Nomad40

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> To all the members who do not have the slightest experience of: flying, maneuvers, employment of tactics, have never been to flight school, are not or were not part of a air force flight training program (I dont think we have any active duty), do not know the alif baa taa of real world cockpit, evasive maneuvers, do not know and have never been in situation where it is life or death, have never even seen the eternal of the cockpit, have never been close to an active fighter jet, I please request all members who are saying "lesson was not learn" "using f-16 in an airshow was not a good idea" "flying maneuvers for f16 is risky" "only jft should do airshows" It is my humble request to please be rational, respectful and please understand that if you fly the danger is always there no matter what you do Wing commander Nauman (shaheed)is SHER AFGHAN, He was a warrior who had been train to do tasks that some people think are dangerous, he was trained to be a fighter pilot and all PAF pilots they train hard to fly and the fly to fight and they fight to kill and that is it.
> 
> I am very disappointed in attitudes towards this accident by some members (truly brings the true colors of cowardice, lack of knowledge and just sheer inhumane extrinsic school of thought)






This incident is a clear cause of pilot error (no engine flame out, no compressor stalls, no bird hits) just sheer bad luck and Allah had written his time to be ended on this world at that moment and nothing else. He embraced his death by doing what he loved most for the people that he loved most.

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## Adam_Khan

The Eagle said:


> Only thing that can prevent from such incidents is, stop flying at all. The risk factor is always there and enquiry isn't concluded yet. Lest not make it like an irresponsible flypast at all. Anything could happen and no one is irresponsible for not playing by the book. Be it an airshow, fly past or whatever, the risk is always there but wold does not ends at that for professionals. I really hope to see a period from this discussion.



You can't stop flying dear but you can certainly prevent avoidable loss of life. Machines can be replaced but humans can't be.



Windjammer said:


> None of the videos are clear to show the last few seconds before the crash....however it's known that sometimes the pilot is thrown clear upon impact....happened to one of our F-104 pilots during 1965 and a British Hunter pilot more recently.





Enigma SIG said:


> In light of the accident; just a missing man formation would do to pay our respects. Lets not pretend it didn't happen.



This is the best way to pay tribute to him,no need to continue with the full flypast anymore.

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## Nomad40

any body witness the F-16 2020 27 day air show in Karachi probably one of the most aggressive f-16 demos: there was a point where the air craft almost hit the sea. This happened when f-16 was in a high G turn and the already low f16 sharply baked to the left (F-16 is not a comfortable plane to fly if you have big long arms) it was most definitively pilot caused.

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## The Eagle

Adam_Khan said:


> You can't stop flying dear but you can certainly prevent avoidable loss of life. Machines can be replaced but humans can't be.



This is the part of life/service and only stop flying can prevent one to not to die. No one can predict what will happen next. Even a routine sortie involved machine... the argument is too lame if you ask a real pilot. Unless, the SOP is violated; no one can stop flying merely because of an incident.

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## Adam_Khan

The Eagle said:


> This is the part of life/service and only stop flying can prevent one to not to die. No one can predict what will happen next. Even a routine sortie involved machine... the argument is too lame if you ask a real pilot. Unless, the SOP is violated; no one can stop flying merely because of an incident.



Where are the SOP's in the first place. Losing life during a training sortie is one thing but then losing a very experienced guy in such an avoidable way hurts more.


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## Maarkhoor

The Eagle said:


> This is the part of life/service and only stop flying can prevent one to not to die. No one can predict what will happen next. Even a routine sortie involved machine... the argument is too lame if you ask a real pilot. Unless, the SOP is violated; no one can stop flying merely because of an incident.


I see video in which it looks like after the loop jet stalled for some reason unknown.


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## Windjammer

Adam_Khan said:


> You can't stop flying dear but you can certainly prevent avoidable loss of life. Machines can be replaced but humans can't be.


I'm sure you have heard of cases where ejection seats malfunctioned even when aircraft were static...killing the occupants. Flying is dangerous in all it's forms.









> This is the best way to pay tribute to him,no need to continue with the full flypast anymore.



A missing man formation would be the best tribute.

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## Nomad40

Maarkhoor said:


> I see video in which it looks like after the loop jet stalled for some reason unknown.


pilot error no stalls nothing (stalling an f-16 in that config is virtually impossible) 100-200 feet more and our hero would have been performing on the 23

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## The Eagle

Adam_Khan said:


> Where are the SOP's in the first place. Losing life during a training sortie is one thing but then losing a very experienced guy in such an avoidable way hurts more.



That doesn't suggest that SOP was violated. It was the same top notch Jockey in the seat that lost his life while he was in control of A/C... unless, enquiry suggests anything else. These incidents wouldn't stop anyone from flying otherwise, no more air shows & demos at all. If you can understand, it's unnecessary to keep talking like this and derail thread.... in-fact a disservice to the one or many like him that lost their lives on similar occasions in past.

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## Windjammer

Adam_Khan said:


> Where are the SOP's in the first place. Losing life during a training sortie is one thing but then losing a very experienced guy in such an avoidable way hurts more.


I don't believe Hamid Qadri was doing any aerobatics when he crashed.....


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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> Well said.
> 
> A piece of somewhat better news is that the body has been recovered intact Alhamdullilah.
> 
> The aircraft didn't hit in a complete nose dive. It was a belly hit.
> 
> Janaza of Wg. Cmdr Nauman Akram is to be held at AHQ, Islamabad at Maghrib.


Could've made it had he had a few hundred feet to his advantage. Still tragic and yet seen this happen before around the world. His last maneuver apparently was his mistake. May he rest in peace.

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## Adam_Khan

Windjammer said:


> I'm sure you have heard of cases where ejection seats malfunctioned even when aircraft were static...killing the occupants. Flying is dangerous in all it's forms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A missing man formation would be the best tribute.



Hey windy send me a PM,wanted to send you something. Don't know how to send PM's here.



Windjammer said:


> I don't believe Hamid Qadri was doing any aerobatics when he crashed.....



Hamid Qadri died when his F.7's engine flamed out,from what I heard he ejected but his chute didn't open.


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## Raider 21

StormBreaker said:


> Belly hit !!!
> Nothing else that resembles the thunderbird incident...


Misjudged height. Very clear same happened at Islamabad. And he pulled up too early.

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## The Eagle

Maarkhoor said:


> I see video in which it looks like after the loop jet stalled for some reason unknown.



I personally love to bank hard & turn sharp in the corner but this loop in start appeared like a split S for that height but jet came down in speed. Can suggest what really happened.

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## Shah_Deu

Accidents do happen. Its a part of job. Michael Schumacher is a living (dead) example as he is in coma for years now. Ofcourse it hurts, but guys our pilot left the world doing what he chose for his life and what he loved the most, flying that too an F-16 !

Its a huge loss, apparently from the videos it seems like he ejected but when its time to go, its time to go. Some leave today, others wait for tomorrow, us included! Just because an accident happened on an Autobahn doesnt result in speed limits on it! May God be our protector!

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## Windjammer

Adam_Khan said:


> Hey windy send me a PM,wanted to send you something. Don't know how to send PM's here.


The PM facility has been removed for members and i think only MODS have it.




> Hamid Qadri died when his F.7's engine flamed out,from what I heard he ejected but his chute didn't open.


Even if that's true, it again boils down to the hazards of jet flying.


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## Windjammer

Myth_buster_1 said:


> This is a very sad moment. I think pilot went out of normal procedures and decided to show off by doing a loop at low alt. RIP


Show off....have some decency besides he was practicing and not exactly displaying before a full house.

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## Sc0lar_Vis@ri

Myth_buster_1 said:


> This is a very sad moment. I think pilot went out of normal procedures and decided to show off by doing a loop at low alt. RIP


Sad moment indeed. But you are disrespecting this decorated pilot by making a judgement. There could be a 1000 possibilities as to why the jet crashed. Besides, this wasn't some Cessna, but an advanced fighter. There are always risks involved when flying these. Sad thing is that the aircraft itself can be replaced, but not the pilot.

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## SecularNationalist

Maarkhoor said:


>


Now it's obvious ,there wasn't any technical error.
The pilot simply miscalculated and was unable to recover from the loop.
Definitely a human error.
Reason why he was unable to eject was either he hit the power lines or till last moment hoping to gain control and recover from the loop

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## Malik Shani

Knuckles said:


> Could've made it had he had a few hundred feet to his advantage. Still tragic and yet seen this happen before around the world. His last maneuver apparently was his mistake. May he rest in peace.


It seems he was able to pull up approx 200 feet above the ground but the High Tension Wires could have proved fatal. This could also be the reason of fatality in case he ejected safely.

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## nomi007

Big loss 
both in term of jet and pilot

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## SecularNationalist

Windjammer said:


> He told reporters the accident apparently was caused by ″an error in judgment.″
> 
> 
> 
> Mehra said the sky was hazy and may have disoriented Bakshi.


The same conditions existed today. Same weather .


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## Windjammer



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## Malik Shani

Guys, check this video of a crash during airshow in England. This is exactly what happened in our case:

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## Shah_Deu

Malik Shani said:


> Guys, check this video of a crash during airshow in England. This is exactly what happened in our case:


Pretty much! Very nice share, thankyou for the post!


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## Sc0lar_Vis@ri

Let the PAF do it's investigation, I'm sure they will release reasons as to why this unfortunate incident happened. Why jump to uninformed conclusions? Let the professionals handle it. As lesser informed non-professionals, all we can and frankly, should do, is to condole the loss of life.

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## Nomad40

Shah_Deu said:


> Pretty much! Very nice share, thankyou for the post!


Our boy ejected i can hear it in the video


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## Shah_Deu

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Our boy ejected i can hear it in the video


Sure, apparently might well be the case. But i meant the maneuver. It looks similar.


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## Sc0lar_Vis@ri

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Our boy ejected i can hear it in the video



You must be having some really heavy audio system that can discern ejection over a video grabbed by a mobile phone . Happy if he was able to eject, but I still say let the professionals analyse the incident and then we would know what actually happened.

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## babrum

lets just hope peple dnt bring up 27 feb and start propoganda


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## SecularNationalist

If anyone got pics of the crash site please share so we can know more. Thx


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## Sc0lar_Vis@ri

babrum said:


> lets just hope peple dnt bring up 27 feb and start propoganda


Why would anyone do that? This is a tragic event. The pilot was doing his job and lost his life in the course of his duty towards his country.

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## Kingslayerr

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> To all the members who do not have the slightest experience of: flying, maneuvers, employment of tactics, have never been to flight school, are not or were not part of a air force flight training program (I dont think we have any active duty), do not know the alif baa taa of real world cockpit, evasive maneuvers, do not know and have never been in situation where it is life or death, have never even seen the eternal of the cockpit, have never been close to an active fighter jet, I please request all members who are saying "lesson was not learn" "using f-16 in an airshow was not a good idea" "flying maneuvers for f16 is risky" "only jft should do airshows" It is my humble request to please be rational, respectful and please understand that if you fly the danger is always there no matter what you do Wing commander Nauman (shaheed)is SHER AFGHAN, He was a warrior who had been train to do tasks that some people think are dangerous, he was trained to be a fighter pilot and all PAF pilots they train hard to fly and the fly to fight and they fight to kill and that is it.
> 
> I am very disappointed in attitudes towards this accident by some members (truly brings the true colors of cowardice, lack of knowledge and just sheer inhumane extrinsic school of thought)


1.Every single member here has honored the shaheed and at the same time everyone can have difference of opinion stop criticizing others and stick to yours.
2. During training and dogfights a jet is flying really high and it gives more time to the pilot to think, control the jet, maneuver, or the thrust to kick again and in worst case scenario eject. The only difference of opinion i have is that during these low altitude airshows pilot doesn't always get the time to eject or think or control the jet thus leading to a precisous life and years of experience lost. Jet can be bought again it will eventually be replaced but that experience could have helped pakistan in any misadventure even after his retirement.

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## StormBreaker

Sc0lar_Vis@ri said:


> For anyone thinking why a *gangu* is doing this, for the record, I am happy the PAF inventory is down by an f-16, but at the same time no professional soldier should go like this.


You could have sent your condolences without mentioning gangus or 27th feb, i have seen people doing that before from either side of the boundary, nothing big. Even we don’t make fun of the dead rather send our condolences.

Thanks and Appreciated


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## Nomad40

Kingslayerr said:


> 1.Every single member here has honored the shaheed and at the same time everyone can have difference of opinion stop criticizing others and stick to yours.
> 2. During training and dogfights a jet is flying really high and it gives more time to the pilot to think, control the jet, maneuver, or the thrust to kick again and in worst case scenario eject. The only difference of opinion i have is that during these low altitude airshows pilot doesn't always get the time to eject or think or control the jet thus leading to a precisous life and years of experience lost. Jet can be bought again it will eventually be replaced but that experience could have helped pakistan in any misadventure even after his retirement.


there are 100s of factors that go into a performance of an air craft it depends on a load of variables (our pilots are trained over and over and over again to adjust their craft to those variables)


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## CriticalThought

Inna lillahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Raji'oon.

The pilot has performed a textbook recovery from vertical dive phase of the loop. The only problem is the low altitude. He was definitely trying to push the envelope, and there are always risks involved. The best of the best regularly perish in high risk sports from motor racing to mountain climbing, to surfing.

Most here who are decrying the risks taken would have said nothing if they saw this same video but no accident happened. Having said that, maneuvers have well defined altitude limits and this one was way out of limit. I say this because I asked the pilot in a turbo prop to perform a vertical loop at 3000 ft. He told me clearly the aircraft was not suitable for that, and the required height is 10000 ft. There is no reason at all to take these risks for any airshow. I hope PAF will revise operational procedures after this.

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## Nomad40

Sc0lar_Vis@ri said:


> You must be having some really heavy audio system that can discern ejection over a video grabbed by a mobile phone . Happy if he was able to eject, but I still say let the professionals analyse the incident and then we would know what actually happened.


just experience my phriend


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## Windjammer

It's indeed a very tragic day but let's be realistic about certain things.
F-16 single-engine aircraft in service with PAF since 1983.
This was first F-16 to have crashed since 2009....an impeccable record indeed.

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## aziqbal

Which F16?

block a/b or new c/d?

what is pilot error why did he break the turn at such low altitude


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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> It's indeed a very tragic day but let's be realistic about certain things.
> F-16 single-engine aircraft in service with PAF since 1983.
> This was first F-16 to have crashed since 2009....an impeccable record indeed.


Yes indeed, but still, the sorrow remains...
Sometimes, you win a war, but you lose yourself in the process...



aziqbal said:


> Which F16?
> 
> block a/b or new c/d?


AM from Griffins


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## Kingslayerr

aziqbal said:


> Which F16?
> 
> block a/b or new c/d?


MLUed A

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## aziqbal

What it pilot error ?


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## Windjammer

StormBreaker said:


> Yes indeed, but still, the sorrow remains...
> Sometimes, you win a war, but you lose yourself in the process...
> 
> 
> AM from Griffins


While machines can be bought but the loss of the human gem is irreplaceable.
But for a single engine jet to be repeatedly put through it's paces right above the Capital does require something extra ordinary.

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## aziqbal

Can someone confirm pilot error ? I’m traveling with intermittent reception


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## Nomad40

aziqbal said:


> Can someone confirm pilot error ? I’m traveling with intermittent reception


han bhai pilot error hay aur kuch nahi


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## ghazi52

Sad day for PAF and Pakistan..
إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ

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## Amavous

It is sad and tragic in many ways but hearts really get heavy when we think of the family.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237696448206196736

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## Sc0lar_Vis@ri

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> han bhai pilot error hay aur kuch nahi


Why pilot error? Could have been anything. Technical failure, engine, bird hit, gloc, the pilot was not a novice, and yes, things can go wrong eleven with the best if it's a bad day.

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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> While machines can be bought but the loss of the human gem is irreplaceable.
> But for a single engine jet to be repeatedly put through it's paces right above the Capital does require something extra ordinary.


Tbh, I don’t even care about the F-16 lost. It is Block A model and that too a MLU. Most airforces have retired it and yet we have error-less A and B MLUed flying perfectly in the perfect hands. Block 3 makes the F-16 of PAF inventory seem like a joke.

Loss of Pilot is the real deal here, our assets aren’t these $50-80mn jets, it is our pilots who in turn are sought by other air forces as teachers. Every pilot we have is an extremely filtered person from a huge list of candidates who applied for GDP. These in turn spend years of rigorous flying, studying and training to become what they are during wars and on 27 Feb. Passing away by some pathetic air shows makes me pissed off...
Although I support Air Shows but these pilots do dream to fight for their country one day, many just fell before that time comes...



Amavous said:


> It is sad and tragic in many ways but hearts really get heavy when we think of the family.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237696448206196736


Is he by any chance, from Karachi ? Beard says so...

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## Nomad40

Sc0lar_Vis@ri said:


> Why pilot error? Could have been anything. Technical failure, engine, bird hit, gloc, the pilot was not a novice, and yes, things can go wrong eleven with the best if it's a bad day.





Sc0lar_Vis@ri said:


> Why pilot error? Could have been anything. Technical failure, engine, bird hit, gloc, the pilot was not a novice, and yes, things can go wrong eleven with the best if it's a bad day.


unfortunately it is a case of pilot error, we all hope our Fighting Falcons family see better days our Fighting Falcon will always will be our Fighting Bull and we will get more F-16 out of the storage that isn't any issue


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## StormBreaker

Amavous said:


> It is sad and tragic in many ways but hearts really get heavy when we think of the family.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237696448206196736


May Allah Bless his son and daughter with the same talent to carry forward the heroic legacy of his father in another decade and may they be the riders of AZM someday

Edit : The kid has weak eyeside, so no chance unfortunately...


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## baqai

I have a feeling that he did managed to recover or he would have been able to recover but power lines caused the crash and his shahadaat. Allah knows best.


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## thunderr

Gforce has taken away his life.Good bye fighter jet pilot.May your soul rest in Peace Ameen

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## aziqbal

He was pulling up way too late 

He was a wing commander 

don’t understand this 

he went into turn at very low altitude 

May Allah grant his family patience

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## Invictus.inc

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1481337312043704

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## Windjammer

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> unfortunately it is a case of pilot error, we all hope our Fighting Falcons family see better days our Fighting Falcon will always will be our Fighting Bull and we will get more F-16 out of the storage that isn't any issue


Nopes, it's becoming apparent that the aircraft malfunctioned right above Aabpara Market and the pilot steered it away from built up area.

*''Just Coming Back From Crash Site. It Is Very Close To Pak-China Friendship Center. Having The Aviation Knowledge Specially About F-16 Fighting Falcon & After Watching The Crash Videos. I Came To This Conclusion That He Gave His Life To Protect Many Civilian Lives & Also The Important Buildings. He saved Pak - China Friendship Center, Aabpara Market, Serena Hotel & Took The Aircraft To Unpopulated Spot In Shakarparian. After Insuring The Safety of Above Mentioned Prospects He Didn't Have Enough Time To Eject May Allah Bless Him With Highest Level of Paradise ''..





*

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## Sc0lar_Vis@ri

ghazi52 said:


> Sad day for PAF and Pakistan..
> إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ


For Air forces across the world, nobody


Sc0lar_Vis@ri said:


> For anyone thinking why a *gangu* is doing this, for the record, I am happy the PAF inventory is down by an f-16, but at the same time no professional soldier should go like this.


I simply stated that because another member mentioned Feb 27 and propoganda. This event is neither a reason to mention 27/2 nor to flout propoganda.


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## HRK

Adam_Khan said:


> Hey windy send me a PM,wanted to send you something. Don't know how to send PM's here.





Windjammer said:


> The PM facility has been removed for members and i think only MODS have it.


If you two want I can get both of you connected in PM using my account ....

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## Windjammer

HRK said:


> If you two want I can get both of you connected in PM using by account ....


Yes that would be nice.


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## NA71

From one photo, it seems it was not HT power lines..... The broken PMT is LT type... HT transformer or breakers are seldom installed other thn grid station..... Let's see what investigation says....

So HT power line cause may be removed....


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## Amaa'n

Windjammer said:


> Nopes, it's becoming apparent that the aircraft malfunctioned right above Aabpara Market and the pilot steered it away from built up area.
> 
> *''Just Coming Back From Crash Site. It Is Very Close To Pak-China Friendship Center. Having The Aviation Knowledge Specially About F-16 Fighting Falcon & After Watching The Crash Videos. I Came To This Conclusion That He Gave His Life To Protect Many Civilian Lives & Also The Important Buildings. He saved Pak - China Friendship Center, Aabpara Market, Serena Hotel & Took The Aircraft To Unpopulated Spot In Shakarparian. After Insuring The Safety of Above Mentioned Prospects He Didn't Have Enough Time To Eject May Allah Bless Him With Highest Level of Paradise ''..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


That is not what Hamza Shafqat tweeted.....he is being misquoted


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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> Yes that would be nice.


@Adam_Khan if you too are alright with this suggestion


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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> Passing away by some pathetic air shows makes me pissed off...


I feel your pain brother. Events like Feb' 27 rarely happen. These air shows provide the inspiration that fosters interest in the air force and from which we get the thousands of applicants ... filtered from which we get our future pilots.

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## Amaa'n

Windjammer said:


> Nopes, it's becoming apparent that the aircraft malfunctioned right above Aabpara Market and the pilot steered it away from built up area.
> 
> *''Just Coming Back From Crash Site. It Is Very Close To Pak-China Friendship Center. Having The Aviation Knowledge Specially About F-16 Fighting Falcon & After Watching The Crash Videos. I Came To This Conclusion That He Gave His Life To Protect Many Civilian Lives & Also The Important Buildings. He saved Pak - China Friendship Center, Aabpara Market, Serena Hotel & Took The Aircraft To Unpopulated Spot In Shakarparian. After Insuring The Safety of Above Mentioned Prospects He Didn't Have Enough Time To Eject May Allah Bless Him With Highest Level of Paradise ''..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Heres original tweet
@hamzashafqaat: I was on crash site. He gave his life to protect many civilian lives and also many important buildings. He saved Pak - China Friendship Center, Aabpara Market, Serena Hotel and took the plane towards woods in shakarparian. May Allah bless him with highest level of paradise

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237631516701798400

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## Windjammer

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> That is not what Hamza Shafqat tweeted.....he is being misquoted


Not sure who Hamza Shafqat is but i got these both in English and Urdu on whatsapp.


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## StormBreaker

aziqbal said:


> He was pulling up way too late
> 
> He was a wing commander
> 
> don’t understand this
> 
> he went into turn at very low altitude
> 
> May Allah grant his family patience


Something definitely doesn’t add up, that doesn’t look like a loop, someone here pointed out earlier, it was possibly S maneuver. Then the jet suddenly turns to the ground, we don’t see any sort of activity from the jet, the G’s might have had an effect on WC saheb, he might have lost consciousness and as a result, bird fell directly, but then again, Knuckles said that the impact wasn’t directly by the nose but belly bottom, so this suggest measures taken by pilot to avoid crash.

Possibilities reduced down to :


Altimeter calibration problem
Loss of consciousness but then regained it to some extent but it was already too late
Engine issue
Loss of control in cockpit (throttle issues, timing issues)


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## Amaa'n

Windjammer said:


> Not sure who Hamza Shafqat is but i got these both in English and Urdu on whatsapp.


DC Islamabad.....that thing u recvd is his tweet after mirch masala

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## StormBreaker

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237736058667905025

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## Windjammer

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Heres original tweet
> @hamzashafqaat: I was on crash site. He gave his life to protect many civilian lives and also many important buildings. He saved Pak - China Friendship Center, Aabpara Market, Serena Hotel and took the plane towards woods in shakarparian. May Allah bless him with highest level of paradise
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237631516701798400


What's the difference between the two.....they both saying virtually the same thing....


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## StormBreaker

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> DC Islamabad.....that thing u recvd is his tweet after mirch masala




That is meant for the simple awam, not for us. Although history has always proved our pilots to be prioritizing civilian lives on ground when the jet malfunctions and in turn they lose their lives while saving those on ground, this specific crash doesn’t count on that one. We can clearly see how all of a sudden things went wrong, the panic he might have got in microseconds, didn’t take even 2 seconds to get crashed, no time to think for those on ground especially when you are accelerating downwards during a loop...

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## NA71

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237714252535824385

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## Vortex

*Inna lillah wa inna ilayhi raaji'uun

Very sad news.

May Allah open highest jannat’s doors for him and gave strength and sabr to his family.



*

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## Amaa'n

Windjammer said:


> What's the difference between the two.....they both saying virtually the same thing....


Hamza Shafqaat has no knowledge of Aviation sir, thats thats the difference let alone experience with F16...

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## Nomad40

Windjammer said:


> Nopes, it's becoming apparent that the aircraft malfunctioned right above Aabpara Market and the pilot steered it away from built up area.
> 
> *''Just Coming Back From Crash Site. It Is Very Close To Pak-China Friendship Center. Having The Aviation Knowledge Specially About F-16 Fighting Falcon & After Watching The Crash Videos. I Came To This Conclusion That He Gave His Life To Protect Many Civilian Lives & Also The Important Buildings. He saved Pak - China Friendship Center, Aabpara Market, Serena Hotel & Took The Aircraft To Unpopulated Spot In Shakarparian. After Insuring The Safety of Above Mentioned Prospects He Didn't Have Enough Time To Eject May Allah Bless Him With Highest Level of Paradise ''..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


malfunction what? 


thanks


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## Windjammer

StormBreaker said:


> That is meant for the simple awam, not for us. Although history has always proved our pilots to be prioritizing civilian lives on ground when the jet malfunctions and in turn they lose their lives while saving those on ground, this specific crash doesn’t count on that one. We can clearly see how all of a sudden things went wrong, the panic he might have got in microseconds, didn’t take even 2 seconds to get crashed, no time to think for those on ground especially when you are accelerating downwards during a loop...


So it's a laughing matter for you....i don't think DC Islamabad has a stake in the PAF...if you look at some of the videos, you can see the aircraft making some form of movements or adjustments from it's normal pattern.


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## 313ghazi

Will we ever find out what happened to the aircraft?


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## Windjammer

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Hamza Shafqaat has no knowledge of Aviation sir, thats thats the difference let alone experience with F16...


Ok, some one may have added his own spices to this but same is being quoted in some Urdu tweets.


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## Dark1

Even bbc is carrying the news in its headlines . A bit strange in my opinion , as fighter jets crash on a regular basis around the world. 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51831319


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## Windjammer



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## Hayreddin

People who are claiming it a pilot error have no knowledge of aviation . Shame on you guys . WC nouman was top gun , best of the best f16 pilot .won sher afgan 2019 trophy . He was an asset to paf . 
Rest in peace shaheed WC Nouman akram .

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## AMRAAM

Dark1 said:


> Even bbc is carrying the news in its headlines . A bit strange in my opinion , as fighter jets crash on a regular basis around the world.
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51831319



Shows the importance of F-16s for Pakistan.


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## Nomad40

Hayreddin said:


> People who are claiming it a pilot error have no knowledge of aviation . Shame on you guys . WC nouman was top gun , best of the best f16 pilot .won sher afgan 2019 trophy . He was an asset to paf .
> Rest in peace shaheed WC Nouman akram .


aviation is very unforgiving and one can never master it you can be good at it but cannot master some variables, therefor in my opinion after watching those tragic videos i have concluded on my behalf that pilot error seems to be an evident cause of the incident, pilots are humans and humans make mistakes.

If you think that I am saying this without any knowledge of aviation than that is just a bloody pathetic and baseless rant you can always criticize me as I am most certainly not a full fledged expert I learn new things about aviation every week, but never go out and state that one has no virtue or valuable knowledge in regards to some thing and by no means am I angry at you or neither provoked by you're baseless assessment.

can you please tell me what experience or knowledge do you have in regards to aviation my dear friend and what led you to believe that making a claim of pilot error should be directly associated with shame its wither that or you are a little kid.

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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> So it's a laughing matter for you....i don't think DC Islamabad has a stake in the PAF...if you look at some of the videos, you can see the aircraft making some form of movements or adjustments from it's normal pattern.


I am laughing on mirch masala thing since that is the usual habit of most Pakistanis who are ‘wannabe attention seeking’ reporters.
Don’t know how DC islamabad got involved in this convo...
Well move ahead bro...

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## airomerix

blain2 said:


> I felt the weather and overcast skies had a hand in this. These aerobatics are a bit too risky in populated centers. They should just stick to flybys. Very unfortunate loss of a gem of a fighter pilot and a very expensive asset. God bless and Inna lillahi wa inna alaihi rajaoun.



The clouds were at 1300 to 1500 AGL. This may be a factor. 

The fact that it doesn't look like GLOC is because the aircraft's vertical stabilizer was engaged which means he was actively trying to pull up.

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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> So it's a laughing matter for you....i don't think DC Islamabad has a stake in the PAF...if you look at some of the videos, you can see the aircraft making some form of movements or adjustments from it's normal pattern.


In some videos, Yes. That is the mother of all confusions like i said earlier. At times, it looks like a S turn but then we see a loop but the altitude doesn’t explain that. Definitely something wrong with the aircraft...



airomerix said:


> The clouds were at 1300 to 1500 AGL. This may be a factor.
> 
> The fact that it doesn't look like GLOC is because the aircraft's vertical stabilizer was engaged which means he was actively trying to pull up.


Yes, loss of consciousness can not be explained since the aircraft was actively pulling up but with insufficient force and the crash wasn't a direct nose impact.


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## Adam_Khan

HRK said:


> @Adam_Khan if you too are alright with this suggestion



Yes that would be great.

Thank you

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## sohail.ishaque

Windjammer said:


> What possible lessons could be learnt knowing that crashes during airshows or during aerobatics are quite common...the only lesson one can draw is be like the Indian airforce and do a simple flypast.



I think we should stop using the jets for just Fly past. They cost us alot of money for that and the life of the jet is also reduced. 

But the most important lesson i think should be "*Stay Humble*"

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## Raider 21

Who knew. That from this Pic. Both pilots would leave this world flying Vipers. The man on the left is the one who crashed this morning. The one on the right was the last Viper crash from mid 2009. Both loved their professions and died what they loved doing. Got nothing more other than respect. May they rest in peace for their departure from this world.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Windjammer said:


> Nopes, it's becoming apparent that the aircraft malfunctioned right above Aabpara Market and the pilot steered it away from built up area.
> 
> *''Just Coming Back From Crash Site. It Is Very Close To Pak-China Friendship Center. Having The Aviation Knowledge Specially About F-16 Fighting Falcon & After Watching The Crash Videos. I Came To This Conclusion That He Gave His Life To Protect Many Civilian Lives & Also The Important Buildings. He saved Pak - China Friendship Center, Aabpara Market, Serena Hotel & Took The Aircraft To Unpopulated Spot In Shakarparian. After Insuring The Safety of Above Mentioned Prospects He Didn't Have Enough Time To Eject May Allah Bless Him With Highest Level of Paradise ''..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


the aircraft malfunctioned but he still went up for a split-s? okay.

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> The clouds were at 1300 to 1500 AGL. This may be a factor.
> 
> The fact that it doesn't look like GLOC is because the aircraft's vertical stabilizer was engaged which means he was actively trying to pull up.


He entered the maneuver too soon. Not enough height and too much speed.

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## Bratva

Knuckles said:


> He entered the maneuver too soon. Not enough height and too much speed.



Was Late WC son in law of Kaiser Tufail ?


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## SaffronBandit

Invictus.inc said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1481337312043704



The loop is a very dangerous maneuver and its precisely dangerous because it doesn't look dangerous. You have to have perfect altitude in proportion to speed otherwise this is what happens. I know a family friend who died years ago in an f-6 and he couldn't pull out of a loop; there's numerous videos on YouTube where you'll see pilots get it wrong and paying the ultimate price. To Allah we belong and to whom we shall return!

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## Nomad40

Dark1 said:


> Even bbc is carrying the news in its headlines . A bit strange in my opinion , as fighter jets crash on a regular basis around the world.
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51831319[/QUOTE





Knuckles said:


> He entered the maneuver too soon. Not enough height and too much speed.


@Knuckles are you by any chance a pilot ?


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## Raider 21

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> the aircraft malfunctioned but he still went up for a split-s? okay.


Yeah the part about him steering the jet away doesn't make sense. If he encountered problems in that situation he would've ejected or did something else. Then again, the investigation board are doing their analysis.

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## Amaa'n

StormBreaker said:


> In some videos, Yes. That is the mother of all confusions like i said earlier. At times, it looks like a S turn but then we see a loop but the altitude doesn’t explain that. Definitely something wrong with the aircraft...
> 
> 
> Yes, loss of consciousness can not be explained since the aircraft was actively pulling up but with insufficient force and the crash wasn't a direct nose impact.


i just watched a vid....jet had black smoke during flight.....possibly hinting at Compression stall.....but, again thats immediate factor.....need to know the underlying factor for preventing reoccurrence

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## Raider 21

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> @Knuckles are you by any chance a pilot ?


Yes I am. But my word is not going to be close to what the investigation board will come with.

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## Adam_Khan

Bratva said:


> Was Late WC son in law of Kaiser Tufail ?



His son in law was the previous OC of 9 squadron,before W/C Noman.

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## sneakerspark

Knuckles said:


> View attachment 612879
> 
> Who knew. That from this Pic. Both pilots would leave this world flying Vipers. The man on the left is the one who crashed this morning. The one on the right was the last Viper crash from mid 2009. Both loved their professions and died what they loved doing. Got nothing more other than respect. May they rest in peace for their departure from this world.


Ironic isn't it? SL Saud on the right.


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## raja786

I have seen the videos, sadly it was pilots fault and he had very limited time to eject, May Allah bless his soul. I think low flying and these acrobatic maneuvers should be banned.


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## Nomad40

Knuckles said:


> Yeah the part about him steering the jet away doesn't make sense. If he encountered problems in that situation he would've ejected or did something else. Then again, the investigation board are doing their analysis.



some members just dont use rational and critical thinking to asses cert


Knuckles said:


> Yes I am. But my word is not going to be close to what the investigation board will come with.


what do you fly? 
thanks

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## Raider 21

Hayreddin said:


> People who are claiming it a pilot error have no knowledge of aviation . Shame on you guys . WC nouman was top gun , best of the best f16 pilot .won sher afgan 2019 trophy . He was an asset to paf .
> Rest in peace shaheed WC Nouman akram .


High chance it was pilot error as the best have died in this profession from a miscalculation. The Investigation Board will know more.



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> some members just dont use rational and critical thinking to asses cert
> 
> what do you fly?
> thanks


PM me and we'll talk about my work and experience. Let's leave the thread open for discussion for the crash.



sneakerspark said:


> Ironic isn't it? SL Saud on the right.


Yes it is him on the right

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## raja786

loanranger said:


> Big loss loosing him. I don't care about the jet.However, things should continue as they have always. High risk profession for a reason.


Unnecessary high risk should be avoided at all times. Nothing to prove here!

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## Malik Shani

Guys, I am posting another video related to technicalities of a loop maneuver. The purpose of sharing this video is not accusing the pilot of any error but sharing of information to the aviation enthusiasts like me. 

Few important points discussed are as follows:

Jet must be at sufficient altitude to perform "loop the loop" maneuver. This allows pilot a margin of error in case something goes wrong with plane or the maneuver itself.
If pilot experience any malfunction with Jet while pulling up to gain the altitude for the maneuver, he can invert the jet and simple exit from the maneuver.
During the last stage of the maneuver when the aircraft is heading towards the ground, the G Force is extremely high since the pilot is pulling hard to pitch round. This could result in pilot getting blacked-out.
I am aware that pilots are very well trained to tolerate excessive amount of G-Force but human body has certain limitations.

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## Nomad40

Knuckles said:


> High chance it was pilot error as the best have died in this profession from a miscalculation. The Investigation Board will know more.


this is what i am trying to say @Knuckles 


Knuckles said:


> High chance it was pilot error as the best have died in this profession from a miscalculation. The Investigation Board will know more.
> 
> 
> PM me and we'll talk about my work and experience. Let's leave the thread open for discussion for the crash.
> 
> 
> Yes it is him on the right


that other guy in the picture is doomed I feel it


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## sneakerspark

I honestly suspect wrong altimeter setting. He was already very low to begin with the vertical climb. I have seen previous aerobatics by f16 as well on 23rd march. The aircraft used to be a lil higher than it was this time.

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## StormBreaker

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237699202219728902

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237751960817844224

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## waz

Allah rest his soul. I hoped when I saw news of the crash it was just the plane but sadly we lost something priceless, the life of one our warriors.

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## Talon

airomerix said:


> The clouds were at 1300 to 1500 AGL. This may be a factor.
> 
> The fact that it doesn't look like GLOC is because the aircraft's vertical stabilizer was engaged which means he was actively trying to pull up.


I believe wrong Altimeter settings is what caused the accident.

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## xyxmt

most probably some medical problem


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## Nomad40

Hodor said:


> I believe wrong Altimeter settings is what caused the accident.


most likely pilot did not top off the altimeter



Knuckles said:


> High chance it was pilot error as the best have died in this profession from a miscalculation. The Investigation Board will know more.
> 
> 
> PM me and we'll talk about my work and experience. Let's leave the thread open for discussion for the crash.
> 
> 
> Yes it is him on the right


how can I PM ?


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## StormBreaker

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> that other guy in the picture is doomed I feel it


Hey,
That came to my mind as well, but it isn’t good or ethical to say such,
The guy in the mid, May Allah protect him from any such accident...

BTW, there is a guard as well if you look closely, behind them all...



Hodor said:


> I believe wrong Altimeter settings is what caused the accident.


Who is responsible for setting that ? USA Technical team or PAF technical team ?


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## TaimiKhan

It seems as per initial info, it was a misjudged / miscalculated loop and the pilot till end tried to save the aircraft and people down below and got too late to eject. He preferred martyrdom. 

Sad day, may he get rewarded with a beautiful place in jannah and Allah give courage to his family. Ameen.

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## airomerix

Knuckles said:


> He entered the maneuver too soon. Not enough height and too much speed.



The AB was disengaged upon decedent which should give him enough maneuverability to execute a full loop upon pull up. But yes, not enough height points out to @Hodor assumption of wrong altimeter settings.

There will be a shake up after this incident for sure. Whenever a tragedy happens, we rewrite the rules.

It is the same for aviation everywhere in the world.

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## The Eagle

Invictus.inc said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1481337312043704



Still can't believe that a pilot like Noman Akram will pull that loop like this.. In start of loop, seems like jet was slow as compare to its speed rocketing back to earth.... something seems strange in this video... I am just guessing on the basis after watching lot of recoveries in similar loops. Wasn't climbing with that pace as usual.. the recovery was too fast for a loop that too on such a height. What I find strange that it should have been going the other way to complete such a circle. 

@Knuckles @Hodor @airomerix @Windjammer 

by the way, wasn't it HMDed?

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## Nomad40

StormBreaker said:


> Hey,
> That came to my mind as well, but it isn’t good or ethical to say such,
> The guy in the mid, May Allah protect him from any such accident...
> 
> BTW, there is a guard as well if you look closely, behind them all...
> 
> 
> Who is responsible for setting that ? USA Technical team or PAF technical team ?


The pilot is responsible for all the calibration of avionics my dear friend different balances weights weather AGL conditions affect how you're instruments perform

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## Windjammer

The Eagle said:


> Still can't believe that a pilot like Noman Akram will pull that loop like this.. In start of loop, seems like jet was slow as compare to its speed rocketing back to earth.... something seems strange in this video... I am just guessing on the basis after watching lot of recoveries in similar loops. Wasn't climbing with that pace as usual.. the recovery was too fast for a loop that too on such a height. What I find strange that it should have been going the other way to complete such a circle.
> 
> @Knuckles @Hodor @airomerix @Windjammer
> 
> by the way, wasn't it HMDed?


Also notice the puff of smoke as the jet turns at the top of it's loop.

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## sneakerspark

Windjammer said:


> Also notice the puff of smoke as the jet turns at the top of it's loop.


I believe that's due to AB being disengaged

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## Nomad40

Windjammer said:


> Also notice the puff of smoke as the jet turns at the top of it's loop.


that is most probably unburned fuel it is common with rapid change of the throttle

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## anathema

Fighter pilot community from across the border is extremely sad ! It goes to show at the occupation level - they all mean well to each other ! 
There is a reason why fighter pilots across the world regard acrobatic low level display flying as the most challenging ! Ohm Shanti - to blue skies and beyond ! 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237713094043766784

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237714328666562566

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237626798814294018

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## HRK

TaimiKhan said:


> It seems as per initial info, it was a misjudged / miscalculated loop and the pilot till end tried to save the aircraft and people down below and got too late to eject. He preferred martyrdom.
> 
> Sad day, may he get rewarded with a beautiful place in jannah and Allah give courage to his family. Ameen.


these words were the part of a video of a PAF demo ..... I have no better words to describe the today's incident

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237757131006390273

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## Areesh

We lost a hero today

RIP

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> The AB was disengaged upon decedent which should give him enough maneuverability to execute a full loop upon pull up. But yes, not enough height points out to @Hodor assumption of wrong altimeter settings.
> 
> There will be a shake up after this incident for sure. Whenever a tragedy happens, we rewrite the rules.
> 
> It is the same for aviation everywhere in the world.


Altimeter setting is what came to my mind too, but the rest of his maneuvers looked in a normal trend as the previous demos, not to mention focusing a lot on the HUD for altitude could have taken his judgment and feel for what the altitude should be instead of what it could be. I feel it was very much an error on his side for pulling too early, the same maneuvers are flown by the Block 60 demo pilots and they execute it flawlessly. Either way, the investigation board have already started their process.

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## Windjammer



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## StormBreaker

Knuckles said:


> Altimeter setting is what came to my mind too, but the rest of his maneuvers looked in a normal trend as the previous demos, not to mention focusing a lot on the HUD for altitude could have taken his judgment and feel for what the altitude should be instead of what it could be. I feel it was very much an error on his side for pulling too early, the same maneuvers are flown by the Block 60 demo pilots and they execute it flawlessly. Either way, the investigation board have already started their process.


Report coming in that the pilot completed the loop but the stall prevented him from Gaining altitude again and hence crashing in the forest while ejecting.

Is this confirmed ? Does look legit.
@Windjammer


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## Ra's al Ghul

Inna lillahi wa inna illahi rajioon

a brave solider he was ,
on a side note. PAF make sure that no one can have a photo of the crashed F-16 except PAF profesionals, due to security reasons. 
I hope they understand the warfare concept.

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## The Eagle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> that other guy in the picture is doomed I feel it



Do you have some ethics or is it just like that? What is that being so irresponsible while posting with inappropriate behaviour & non serious attitude?.... you are going off the thread.

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## -=virus=-

Knuckles said:


> Altimeter setting


What about situational awareness, that canopy provides plenty of viewing space to look out and see the ground. 

When war games are conducted, they generally set the floor at a few thousand feet AGL to be treated as actual ground level to avoid just these kind of situations. 

Seems like a low cloud cover day as well, which again, he should have been aware of.. 

All pointing to pilot error/bravado.. 

Tragic loss of life, condolences to his family and friends.

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## TOPGUN

Very sad news indeed may ALLAH rest his soul in peace AMEEN !!


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## The Eagle

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Talon

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> most likely pilot did not top off the altimeter
> 
> 
> how can I PM ?


Its a standard in PAF to set the switch to RDR Alt rather than auto or Baro



StormBreaker said:


> Hey,
> That came to my mind as well, but it isn’t good or ethical to say such,
> The guy in the mid, May Allah protect him from any such accident...
> 
> BTW, there is a guard as well if you look closely, behind them all...
> 
> 
> Who is responsible for setting that ? USA Technical team or PAF technical team ?


Altimeter is set by the pilot as per the area/terrain he's flying on.Search for QNH,QFE,Baro and Alt Rdr.



The Eagle said:


> Still can't believe that a pilot like Noman Akram will pull that loop like this.. In start of loop, seems like jet was slow as compare to its speed rocketing back to earth.... something seems strange in this video... I am just guessing on the basis after watching lot of recoveries in similar loops. Wasn't climbing with that pace as usual.. the recovery was too fast for a loop that too on such a height. What I find strange that it should have been going the other way to complete such a circle.
> 
> @Knuckles @Hodor @airomerix @Windjammer
> 
> by the way, wasn't it HMDed?


He was wearing simple HGU 55 helmet.
Helmet here isnt the concern,HMCS will show same figures the hud is showing.



Knuckles said:


> Altimeter setting is what came to my mind too, but the rest of his maneuvers looked in a normal trend as the previous demos, not to mention focusing a lot on the HUD for altitude could have taken his judgment and feel for what the altitude should be instead of what it could be. I feel it was very much an error on his side for pulling too early, the same maneuvers are flown by the Block 60 demo pilots and they execute it flawlessly. Either way, the investigation board have already started their process.


He had barely started the show,crash happened almost at the start of the display.



Based Gangu said:


> What about situational awareness, that canopy provides plenty of viewing space to look out and see the ground.
> 
> When war games are conducted, they generally set the floor at a few thousand feet AGL to be treated as actual ground level to avoid just these kind of situations.
> 
> Seems like a low cloud cover day as well, which again, he should have been aware of..
> 
> All pointing to pilot error/bravado..
> 
> Tragic loss of life, condolences to his family and friends.


You cannot tell what's your altitude just by your eyes.

The CARA ALOW is set to 300ft by default in F16,at 300ft computer asks you to deploy your gears.

MSL FLOOR is set to 10000ft by default.

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## The Eagle

Hodor said:


> Helmet here isnt the concern,HMCS will show same figures the hud is showing.



Wanted to confirm that... thanks.


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## Side-Winder

Heard, PAF will go for missing man formation on 23rd?

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## StormBreaker

Hodor said:


> Its a standard in PAF to set the switch to RDR Alt rather than auto or Baro
> 
> 
> Altimeter is set by the pilot as per the area/terrain he's flying on.Search for QNH,QFE,Baro and Alt Rdr.
> 
> 
> He was wearing simple HGU 55 helmet.
> Helmet here isnt the concern,HMCS will show same figures the hud is showing.
> 
> 
> He had barely started the show,crash happened almost at the start of the display.
> 
> 
> You cannot tell what's your altitude just by your eyes.
> 
> The CARA ALOW is set to 300ft by default in F16,at 300ft computer asks you to deploy your gears.
> 
> MSL FLOOR is set to 10000ft by default.


And what if the terrain is mountainous? How is the altitude set ? Or is there any sort of proximity sensor or some sort of detection to actively assist in capturing the current ground distance ?



Side-Winder said:


> Heard, PAF will go for missing man formation on 23rd?


Someone in this thread did suggest, it would be extremely cool and great to see such an honorary act by PAF if happens...


----------



## Talon

StormBreaker said:


> And what if the terrain is mountainous? How is the altitude set ? Or is there any sort of proximity sensor or some sort of detection to actively assist in capturing the current ground distance ?
> 
> 
> Someone in this thread did suggest, it would be extremely cool and great to see such an honorary act by PAF if happens...


It doesn't matter if you are flying over mountains or sea.If you dont want to crash you have to Turn On your Rdr Alt switch.If its turned off then aircraft will give you wrong figures.The other way is to contact relevant ATC and set provided QNH in your altimeter.

PAF uses first method as standard,so you dont have to ask ATC and its more reliable.

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## The Eagle

Side-Winder said:


> Heard, PAF will go for missing man formation on 23rd?



I can say Yes.

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## mingle

Whole No 9 to come out on parade day to pay homage to theior fallen comrade at 23 March parade

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## Windjammer



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## NA71

Windjammer said:


>



This gives me tears....oh man.

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## sneakerspark

OT: what video extension can be uploaded here?


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## Adam_Khan

Hodor said:


> It doesn't matter if you are flying over mountains or sea.If you dont want to crash you have to Turn On your Rdr Alt switch.If its turned off then aircraft will give you wrong figures.The other way is to contact relevant ATC and set provided QNH in your altimeter.
> 
> PAF uses first method as standard,so you dont have to ask ATC and its more reliable.



Part of the reason why Auto GCAS is so important for high performance jets. In the last few years majority of the air crashes in PAF were due to Controlled flight into terrain.

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## StormBreaker

NA71 said:


> This gives me tears....oh man.


Bro, just 5 min ago, i saw my mom watching something on tv and sort of shedding tears, then i saw it was the crash vid with bg music of “ae puttar hataan te nahi wikde”, i was surprised since i didn't expect that...



mingle said:


> Whole No 9 to come out on parade day to pay homage to theior fallen comrade at 23 March parade


If something like that happens, that would be so sooo amazing....

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## NA71

StormBreaker said:


> Bro, just 5 min ago, i saw my mom watching something on tv and sort of shedding tears, then i saw it was the crash vid with bg music of “ae puttar hataan te nahi wikde”, i was surprised since i didn't expect that...
> 
> 
> If something like that happens, that would be so sooo amazing....



First one in history of PAF.....if i am not wrong.....

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## StormBreaker

Come on PAF people, you are reading us, please do consider the best you can do to honor WC Noman on Pak Day Parade.

Either whole of Griffin or Missing man formation.

PLEASE

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## NA71

Air chief should announce full family support to his kids and widow......

This is how we love our boys...like our own beloved ones.....

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## Genghis khan1

StormBreaker said:


> Report coming in that the pilot completed the loop but the stall prevented him from Gaining altitude again and hence crashing in the forest while ejecting.
> 
> Is this confirmed ? Does look legit.
> @Windjammer


In some videos, Right at the beginning of downward loop you can see engine generating smoke not usual with F-16 engine and during the loop It kinda drop for a moment.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625445291626497

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## The Eagle

NA71 said:


> Air chief should announce full family support to his kids and widow......
> 
> This is how we love our boys...like our own beloved ones.....



Pakistan Armed Forces take care like family. There shouldn't be any doubt.



StormBreaker said:


> Come on PAF people, you are reading us, please do consider the best you can do to honor WC Noman on Pak Day Parade.
> 
> Either whole of Griffin or Missing man formation.
> 
> PLEASE



It will be done and for sure. I don't see any reason for someone to believe that PAF or any other branch of Armed Forces; wouldn't do.

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## Amaa'n

Genghis khan1 said:


> In some videos, Right at the beginning of downward loop you can see engine generating smoke not usual with F-16 engine and during the loop It kinda drop for a moment.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237625445291626497


that's the video i toowas refering..... Compressor Stall?

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## masterchief_mirza

Tragic news. May Allah (swt) grant the brave shahid the highest possible station in heaven. We do not regard our shahids as "dead" but rather that they live on in ways we don't comprehend. Those who remain behind are strengthened in their resolve against all of Pakistan's enemies. 

_"And do not say that whoso is killed in the path of Allah is dead. No! Indeed they are alive but you do not know how. (Surah 2, al-Baqarah verse 154)"_

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## Dazzler

Not confirmed yet..

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## dbc

Very sad killed by a few feet - these are the small deadly margins for a combat aviator. 
RIP

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## StormBreaker

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> that's the video i toowas refering..... Compressor Stall?


Could you share the link kindly


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## waraich66

May Allah swt bless him with peace .
Better investigation need to be conducted , either accident happened due to engine failure , control system or GLOC .
Fighter planes should not to be allowed to perform aerobics near civilian population .
PM ,PAF Chief , COAS and Civil Aviation Authority chief should review the existing rule and regulations .
I salute to Numan Akram for saving many civilian lives by sacrificing his life.

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## WebMaster

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237655486171885568
Too fast.


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## Muhammad Burham



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## Amaa'n

StormBreaker said:


> Could you share the link kindly


its there already in the quoted post

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## ghazi52

Wing Commander Noman Akram martyred in F-16 crash in Islamabad

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237689262725832706

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## Irfan Baloch

The Eagle said:


> Pakistan Armed Forces take care like family. There shouldn't be any doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> It will be done and for sure. I don't see any reason for someone to believe that PAF or any other branch of Armed Forces; wouldn't do.


I confirm that.

there are notices in the military hospitals requesting out patients to let families of shaheeds have priority in the queue. this is a small token of respect.

those signs are at the medicine counter. at the waiting rooms and corridors reminding people that the shaheeds who died in the line of duty have left their families that deserve our little respect and some allowance

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## Windjammer

*Gulf News Reporting.*

*F-16 crash: Pakistan Air Force pilot Nauman sacrifices his life to save Islamabad population*
Decorated pilot opted not to eject and crashed in woods to avoid casualties

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pak...-life-to-save-islamabad-population-1.70313717

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## fakesoul

A compilation of the PAF F-16 crash videos.

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## Irfan Baloch

sneakerspark said:


> I honestly suspect wrong altimeter setting. He was already very low to begin with the vertical climb. I have seen previous aerobatics by f16 as well on 23rd march. The aircraft used to be a lil higher than it was this time.


is it even conceivable that such error can happen with such an experienced officer and such a sophisticated and safe machine?
I have read many possibilities but find them unlikely because he was an experienced ACE and he was flying a very successful and safe American machine.


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## PakShaheen79

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237799631150551041

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## StormBreaker

fakesoul said:


> A compilation of the PAF F-16 crash videos.


I will definitely shout my heart out when PAF honors Him on Pak Day Parade,
It is complicated relation between us Military Enthusiasts and lovers with the Officers and Soldiers despite not being attached to them by blood or family bond, their deaths mean a lot to us, to me actually very much. When you see Pakistan from a broader prospective as being your single territory, and that it’s defenders are the fort, every brick breaks and you feel saddened.

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## Irfan Baloch

StormBreaker said:


> I will definitely shout my heart out when PAF honors Him on Pak Day Parade,
> It is complicated relation between us Military Enthusiasts and lovers with the Officers and Soldiers despite not being attached to them by blood or family bond, their deaths mean a lot to us, to me actually very much. When you see Pakistan from a broader prospective as being your single territory, and that it’s defenders are the fort, every brick breaks and you feel saddened.


may his soul rest in peace
whatever the cause... we lost a great asset today.

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## Talon

CCTV footage..





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2986533478076830





@Windjammer @The Eagle @HRK @airomerix @Adam_Khan

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## StormBreaker

Hodor said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2986533478076830


Loop was completed, if only he ascended some 30 feets more while the first half of loop, the story would have been different


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## The Eagle

Seems like already on fire before hitting ground... just look at the flame at left top corner of frame... may be because of high voltage cables.

The place is Shakarparian round about, near express way.. close to entrance of Shakarian Parade ground.

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## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237803710140559360

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## NA71

StormBreaker said:


> Loop was completed, if only he ascended some 30 feets more while the first half of loop, the story would have been different




there was apparently no ejection till last moment ...he tried to pull up...trail slided with ground

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## Khan_21

RIP to the brave pilot. My question is why do we even have the 23rd march parade? It serves no purpose.

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## Adam_Khan

Hodor said:


> CCTV footage..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2986533478076830
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Windjammer @The Eagle @HRK @airomerix @Adam_Khan



Looks like he did eject but at the very last moment.


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## The Eagle

Khan_21 said:


> My question is why do we even have the 23rd march parade? It serves no purpose.



Read about 23rd March in details and its importance. Internet is full of details with history references.

Regards,

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## StormBreaker

Adam_Khan said:


> Looks like he did eject but at the very last moment.
> View attachment 612921


I don’t see any ejection, or are you talking about the exact time when the aircraft touched the ground and we see what I believe is a Failed ejection ?



The Eagle said:


> View attachment 612919
> 
> 
> View attachment 612920
> 
> 
> Seems like already on fire before hitting ground... just look at the flame at left top corner of frame... may be because of high voltage cables.
> 
> The place is Shakarparian round about, near express way.. close to entrance of Shakarian Parade ground.


Do you see an ejection ?


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## The Eagle

StormBreaker said:


> Do you see an ejection ?



No. That is not ejection but that small tree... which in next frame looks like something over canopy.

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## NA71

Adam_Khan said:


> Looks like he did eject but at the very last moment.
> View attachment 612921


 if he ejected at ground zero position ...possibility is that his parachute could not be opened up properly due to height factor and he came back like fallen from three stories building ....head injuries were reported earlier.


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## StormBreaker

The Eagle said:


> No. That is not ejection but that small tree... which in next frame looks like something over canopy.
> 
> View attachment 612923


That’s what i observed earlier. So NO EJECTION in this footage, but there should definitely be an ejection as the Pilot was found intact

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## sneakerspark

He didn't eject but one thing is apparent that aircraft was under his control until the last moment. He might have saved some lives down there.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

StormBreaker said:


> That’s what i observed earlier. So NO EJECTION in this footage, but there should definitely be an ejection as the Pilot was found intact


if the ejection was as late as it seems to some, then he might've been thrown clear of the plane just by the impact

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## deep_blue

A brave soul departs.
Can't control my tears.
May Allah bless you.
Indeed your nation is proud of you.

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## NA71

compare the very moments ....in single frame please check the change in cockpit...there was no tree either in front or in back side of the jet...


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## sneakerspark

NA71 said:


> compare the very moments ....in single frame please check the change in cockpit
> 
> View attachment 612925


It hit a tree. U can see the tree in the first frame.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

the exit from the loop/split-s whatever it was, was very fast even to an untrained eye, that combined with the low altitude of the maneuver and the fact that Shakarparian is a hill would've left a very very small amount of time and distance for any decision and from the videos it seems he chose to pull up but again the aircraft was too fast and no lift could've been generated in that small amount of altitude. The aircraft was being pushed to its limit hence the massive amount of vapour seen in the cctv footage, unfortunately too much went wrong. We lost our best today, least we can do is remember him in our prayers.

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## StormBreaker

NA71 said:


> compare the very moments ....in single frame please check the change in cockpit...there was no tree either in front or in back side of the jet...
> 
> View attachment 612925


Nose breaks off the airframe ? But in the rest of the frames, cockpit seems intact


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

StormBreaker said:


> Nose breaks off the airframe ? But in the rest of the frames, cockpit seems intact


Nose cones are detachable parts, they can come off easily upon impact


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## StormBreaker

@The Eagle BTW who performed on 27 Feb in Karachi ? And how good is he regarded in PAF ? Like WC Noman won the trophy last year, quite famous and respected even by Alan warnes

Reason : The aggressive maneuvering might be due to a sort of personal competition between the pilots to perform better than the other, the pilot who performed in Karachi did pull out some aggressive maneuvers and it was one of the best performance of F-16 i have ever seen. Might be that WC Noman wanted to perform even better on 23 March ?

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## Windjammer

Look at the nose and canopy completely intact while the rear fuselage is on fire.

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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> Look at the nose and canopy completely intact while the rear fuselage is on fire.
> 
> View attachment 612926


Bird hit in the end ? Because the engine is on fire even before the impact...



CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> Nose cones are detachable parts, they can come off easily upon impact


Not nose cones, i am also referring to frontal fuselage... They are intact after the tree hit


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## sneakerspark

Windjammer said:


> Look at the nose and canopy completely intact while the rear fuselage is on fire.
> 
> View attachment 612926


That's due to impact with the transmission lines. A white splash can be seen in the begining.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

StormBreaker said:


> Bird hit in the end ? Because the engine is on fire even before the impact...
> 
> 
> Not nose cones, i am also referring to frontal fuselage... They are intact after the tree hit


No bird bird hit, it hit electricity lines coming down


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## NA71

StormBreaker said:


> Nose breaks off the airframe ? But in the rest of the frames, cockpit seems intact



Yes, you are right in next frame the nose breaks off






in the initial frame what was the huge bright light...before plane come in the picture?


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## sneakerspark

NA71 said:


> in the initial frame what was the huge bright light...before plane come in the picture?


Impact with the power transmission lines


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## Raider 21

StormBreaker said:


> @The Eagle BTW who performed on 27 Feb in Karachi ? And how good is he regarded in PAF ? Like WC Noman won the trophy last year, quite famous and respected even by Alan warnes
> 
> Reason : The aggressive maneuvering might be due to a sort of personal competition between the pilots to perform better than the other, the pilot who performed in Karachi did pull out some aggressive maneuvers and it was one of the best performance of F-16 i have ever seen. Might be that WC Noman wanted to perform even better on 23 March ?


He's pretty good. OC No.19 sqn. One of the first Block 52+ pilots back in the day.

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## NA71

sneakerspark said:


> Impact with the power transmission lines



this is the first frame ...where plane enters ...no flames...note....

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## airomerix



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## StormBreaker

airomerix said:


> View attachment 612930


Do GCs also fly in wars ?


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## Mace

RIP. Unfortunate accident. This should not stop man pushing F16 to its limits.

Been to Australian air show few times. Always looked forward to aerobatic display by F16. Treat to watch.

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## Esgalduin

NA71 said:


> there was apparently no ejection till last moment ...he tried to pull up...trail slided with ground


There is a video doing the rounds of his body along with a partially opened parachute. He did indeed eject, which is why his body is intact.


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## MM_Haider

Dazzler said:


> Not confirmed yet..


they should cancel this parade .. for God's sake.. one side is corona and other side a huge loss of WC Nauman ... Please


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## Haris Ali2140

Knuckles said:


> He's pretty good. OC No.19 sqn. One of the first Block 52+ pilots back in the day.


What is "OC"?


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What is "OC"?


officer commanding

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## StormBreaker

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What is "OC"?


Officer Commanding
Or normally in Army you will often hear them sayin “Commanding Officer”



Esgalduin said:


> There is a video doing the rounds of his body along with a partially opened parachute. He did indeed eject, which is why his body is intact.


Link


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Esgalduin said:


> There is a video doing the rounds of his body along with a partially opened parachute. He did indeed eject, which is why his body is intact.


a request to everyone who comes across such videos please report them or at the least don't spread them

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## Windjammer

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What is "OC"?


Officer Commanding.
The general perception now is that the compressor collapsed .

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

_Bir ölür bin diriliriz..._

We rise to be a thousand from one death...

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## Windjammer

With Extended Screen.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237804250199142401

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## Esgalduin

StormBreaker said:


> Officer Commanding
> Or normally in Army you will often hear them sayin “Commanding Officer”
> 
> 
> Link


Whatsapp video hai with that cringey and stupid sentimental music in the background. I'd prefer not to share it out of respect to the Shaheed.

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## StormBreaker

Esgalduin said:


> Whatsapp video hai with that cringey and stupid sentimental music in the background. I'd prefer not to share it out of respect to the Shaheed.


Oh ok


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## dbc

Irfan Baloch said:


> is it even conceivable that such error can happen with such an experienced officer and such a sophisticated and safe machine?
> I have read many possibilities but find them unlikely because he was an experienced ACE and he was flying a very successful and safe American machine.



Pilot error unfortunately - he was close, almost made it. He needed more altitude and less air speed to make it safely to the other side of the loop. I wonder if he transitioned from the JF-17, may be that explains why he pulled a negative g inverted loop in a AoA limited aircraft. The JF-17 is capable of higher AoA's ..

I think John C. "Pappy" Herbst's fatal crash occurred under similar circumstances.

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## Trailer23



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## Windjammer



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## Esgalduin

dbc said:


> Pilot error unfortunately - he was close, almost made it. He needed more altitude and less air speed to make it safely to the other side of the loop. I wonder if he transitioned from the JF-17, may be that explains why he pulled a negative g inverted loop in a AoA limited aircraft. The JF-17 is capable of higher AoA's ..
> 
> I think John C. "Pappy" Herbst's fatal crash occurred under similar circumstances.


Yeah, the F16 is notorious for not being able to sustain higher AoA unlike its initial competitor the F18.


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## dbc

Esgalduin said:


> Yeah, the F16 is notorious for not being able to sustain higher AoA unlike its initial competitor the F18.



Yes, the LERX on the JF-17 allow for much better pitch authority - no where close to the F/A-18's of course since the JF-17's don't have a "V" twin tail to maintain lateral stability at higher AoA.

I'm really curious to know if its common practice for PAF pilots to switch back and forth between the JF-17's and the F-16's? @Windjammer

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## alikazmi007

Had a heavy heart ever since I heard of this accident,




What a loss to fathom and recover from. We certainly appreciate everything he has done for his nations. His leadership will dearly be missed.

Do we know if this was one of MLU bird or one of the 52's?

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## SQ8

Per my contact at 9sq - very few dry eyes in there. Excellent officer and commander, just a bad set of circumstances.



Irfan Baloch said:


> is it even conceivable that such error can happen with such an experienced officer and such a sophisticated and safe machine?
> I have read many possibilities but find them unlikely because he was an experienced ACE and he was flying a very successful and safe American machine.


Very similar flight paths and results - except our pilot did not eject.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Hence, we need drones, and more drones...

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## BHarwana

Windjammer said:


> With Extended Screen.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237804250199142401



May Allah pak grant him highest place in jannah. He tried his best to save the jet till the last moment. His potential was more than the jet he was flying and what makes him a legend.

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## SQ8

BHarwana said:


> May Allah pak grant him highest place in jannah. He tried his best to save the jet till the last moment. His potential was more than the jet he was flying and what makes him a legend.


We aren’t sure of the case but his life(skillset and experience) was worth more than the jet.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Officer Commanding.
> The general perception now is that the compressor collapsed .


Doesn't explain the rapid acceleration during descent. And a compressor stall is very evident, one would have heard it in all the video recordings. I think it was largely due to his misjudgment and maneuver execution. Still I repeat, Investigation Boards are working on it.

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## Windjammer

dbc said:


> Yes, the LERX on the JF-17 allow for much better pitch authority - no where close to the F/A-18's of course since the JF-17's don't have a "V" twin tail to maintain lateral stability at higher AoA.
> 
> I'm really curious to know if its common practice for PAF pilots to switch back and forth between the JF-17's and the F-16's? @Windjammer


Only experienced pilots get posted on JF-17 squadrons as until recently it didn't have a trainer version.
As for the martyred pilot, he was OC of his squadron a prime F-16 unit....no half measures there.

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## SQ8

The Eagle said:


> No. That is not ejection but that small tree... which in next frame looks like something over canopy.
> 
> View attachment 612923


Thrown out of the aircraft probably- from the limited information here it looks like he should have punched out.



Windjammer said:


> Only experienced pilots get posted on JF-17 squadrons as until recently it didn't have a trainer version.
> As for the martyred pilot, he was OC of his squadron a prime F-16 unit....no half measures there.


The term “bawling like kids” was used to describe 9sq pilots to me by one of them when I asked a while ago.

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## Windjammer

Socra said:


> Thrown out of the aircraft probably- from the limited information here it looks like he should have punched out.


Exactly what i said earlier, the impact most probably threw him out as happened with an F-104 pilot attempting to land in a dust storm in Peshawar and more recently a British Hunter pilot during an air display.



Knuckles said:


> Doesn't explain the rapid acceleration during descent. And a compressor stall is very evident, one would have heard it in all the video recordings. I think it was largely due to his misjudgment and maneuver execution. Still I repeat, Investigation Boards are working on it.


But that still doesn't explain the obvious acceleration during the decent, however let's wait and see.


----------



## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Exactly what i said earlier, the impact most probably threw him out as happened with an F-104 pilot attempting to land in a dust storm in Peshawar and more recently a British Hunter pilot during an air display.
> 
> 
> But that still doesn't explain the obvious acceleration during the decent, however let's wait and see.


Lots can happen during impact in this manner. I have heard of one US Marine Corps Colonel (Caddick is his last name I can remember) whose F-18 impacted on the ground during an airshow at Miramar, CA in the late 1980s. By some miracle he survived, impact itself during that instant was over 50G's.



Windjammer said:


> View attachment 612936


Is that a cut image. But that can't be of today, as for displays they don't wear the JHMCS helmets.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Trailer23 said:


>


_Bir hilal uğruna, ya Rab, ne güneşler batıyor...

For the sake of a crescent, O LORD, what suns are setting in... _
*
*

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## Trailer23

...just letting you guys know that I will most certainly be doing my part on behalf of ALL of us here at PDF by doing a Video Edit dedicated to only _Wg Cdr. Nauman Akram (Shaheed)_.

I will require some time as I do not want to do a sloppy/cheesy type of vid that are coming out (as of late). I intend to give The Departed a dedication worthy of his service to the _Pakistan Air Force_ and the _Nation_.

It will most certainly be released after the *23rd of March*, as I would like to add the _Missing Man Formation_.

Note: To those who have judged my choice of music in the past can be rest assured. This one is personal. This one is from defence.pk

@Horus @Dubious @araz @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Socra @waz @Windjammer @Aamir Hussain @airomerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Ark_Angel @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @HawkEye27 @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Dil Pakistan @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Haris Ali2140 @Jinn Baba @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @Knuckles @loanranger @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @NA71 @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Sabretooth @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Vortex @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar @assasiner @PakSword @aliyusuf @PDFChamp @Ghessan @Metanoia @Counter-Errorist @Tank131

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## Raider 21

Esgalduin said:


> Yeah, the F16 is notorious for not being able to sustain higher AoA unlike its initial competitor the F18.


The F-18 would have crashed in the same way. US Marines and the Blue Angels have had similar crashes, the latter being close to 4 years ago.

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## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> ...just letting you guys know that I will most certainly be doing my part on behalf of ALL of us here at PDF by doing a Video Edit dedicated to only _Wg Cdr. Nauman Akram (Shaheed)_.
> 
> I will require some time as I do not want to do a sloppy/cheesy type of vid that are coming out (as of late). I intend to give The Departed a dedication worthy of his service to the _Pakistan Air Force_ and the _Nation_.
> 
> It will most certainly be released after the *23rd of March*, as I would like to add the _Missing Man Formation_.
> 
> Note: To those who have judged my choice of music in the past can be rest assured. This one is personal. This one is from defence.pk
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Socra @waz @Windjammer @Aamir Hussain @airomerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Ark_Angel @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @HawkEye27 @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Dil Pakistan @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Haris Ali2140 @Jinn Baba @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @Knuckles @loanranger @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @NA71 @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Sabretooth @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Vortex @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar @assasiner @PakSword @aliyusuf @PDFChamp @Ghessan @Metanoia @Counter-Errorist @Tank131



Looking forward.

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## StormBreaker

Trailer23 said:


> ...just letting you guys know that I will most certainly be doing my part on behalf of ALL of us here at PDF by doing a Video Edit dedicated to only _Wg Cdr. Nauman Akram (Shaheed)_.
> 
> I will require some time as I do not want to do a sloppy/cheesy type of vid that are coming out (as of late). I intend to give The Departed a dedication worthy of his service to the _Pakistan Air Force_ and the _Nation_.
> 
> It will most certainly be released after the *23rd of March*, as I would like to add the _Missing Man Formation_.
> 
> Note: To those who have judged my choice of music in the past can be rest assured. This one is personal. This one is from defence.pk
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Socra @waz @Windjammer @Aamir Hussain @airomerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Ark_Angel @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @HawkEye27 @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Dil Pakistan @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Haris Ali2140 @Jinn Baba @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @Knuckles @loanranger @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @NA71 @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Sabretooth @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Vortex @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar @assasiner @PakSword @aliyusuf @PDFChamp @Ghessan @Metanoia @Counter-Errorist @Tank131


I have been thinking the same, but i lack content.
I know your choice of music and it is great for Normal videos, but this time since you are dedicating it to WC Noman Late, migjt consider some Vintage Military song...


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## mingle

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> that's the video i toowas refering..... Compressor Stall?


Air craft sounds ok I believe He came too low couldn't pull up


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## waz

Trailer23 said:


> ...just letting you guys know that I will most certainly be doing my part on behalf of ALL of us here at PDF by doing a Video Edit dedicated to only _Wg Cdr. Nauman Akram (Shaheed)_.
> 
> I will require some time as I do not want to do a sloppy/cheesy type of vid that are coming out (as of late). I intend to give The Departed a dedication worthy of his service to the _Pakistan Air Force_ and the _Nation_.
> 
> It will most certainly be released after the *23rd of March*, as I would like to add the _Missing Man Formation_.
> 
> Note: To those who have judged my choice of music in the past can be rest assured. This one is personal. This one is from defence.pk
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Socra @waz @Windjammer @Aamir Hussain @airomerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Ark_Angel @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @HawkEye27 @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Dil Pakistan @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Haris Ali2140 @Jinn Baba @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @Knuckles @loanranger @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @NA71 @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Sabretooth @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Vortex @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar @assasiner @PakSword @aliyusuf @PDFChamp @Ghessan @Metanoia @Counter-Errorist @Tank131



Thank you brother for your hard work.


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## PakFactor

I'm just lost for words -- I don't care about the plane -- it's the human soul we lost a great son of the soil who left behind a beautiful family.
I send my condolences.

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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> Lots can happen during impact in this manner. I have heard of one US Marine Corps Colonel (Caddick is his last name I can remember) whose F-18 impacted on the ground during an airshow at Miramar, CA in the late 1980s. By some miracle he survived, impact itself during that instant was over 50G's.


Both the examples I quoted, both pilots survived...the F-104 jockey was Abassi.


> Is that a cut image. But that can't be of today, as for displays they don't wear the JHMCS helmets.


The martyred pilot in the jet that crashed during an earlier sortie.


----------



## krash

HA! There goes another one of them! Presents everything that he had on his palm. The warrior of the sky falls from it. Is that poetic? Tell me now, how many of us have witnessed this before? Seen, with our own eyes, a brother fulfill his pledge to us? Unsung yesterday, indebted millions today. That is poetic. Wah! Proved more faithful to us than to his son, his daughter. That sher ka bacha got what he always prayed for. Then there are thousands who stand right behind him, ready to step in his stead. Thousands more behind them. Just like he was only yesterday. Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajioon! No doubt, but how many get to return the way he did?

"He was showing off"....The man had hundreds of hours in that bird, had done the maneuver a hundred times before, had left two kids behind at home. He knew the risks better than any of us. Had spent years being broken and then remolded into the example of professionalism and you say he was just showing off? You think the man flying an F-16 over Islamabad in front of the entire nation needs to do anything more to show off? Was it his mistake? Maybe. But pretty sure it wasn't because he was showing off. More sure he gave much more than virtually any of us will ever have to. So if you can't respect what we owe him, respect what he gave, at least.

It hurts, I know. But take notes from the next sher who will replace him and perform this very routine.



Irfan Baloch said:


> is it even conceivable that such error can happen with such an experienced officer and such a sophisticated and safe machine?
> I have read many possibilities but find them unlikely because he was an experienced ACE and he was flying a very successful and safe American machine.



Has happened to pilots whose only job is to perform these routines.

Girte hain shah sawar he maidan e jang mein.

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## Trailer23

StormBreaker said:


> ...consider some Vintage Military song...


Have some faith. Trust me. This not for my Channel. I'm dedicating it to 'A Hero'.

This is not going to be one of those feel-good PAF vids.

I know what i'm doing.

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## SQ8

Knuckles said:


> The F-18 would have crashed in the same way. US Marines and the Blue Angels have had similar crashes, the latter being close to 4 years ago.


Low level aerobatics aren’t an easy task - and when dedicated teams can make mistakes after months of repetitive practice then one can understand the low tolerance for error from our part time airshow pilots.

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## Windjammer

Basically today's crash resembles this crash of a Hunter during an airshow, the Hunter pilot however survived as he was thrown clear on impact but 11 people died on the ground,


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## airmarshal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237806081881059330
Why the pilot did not try to eject? This is so tragic. @Windjammer 

As far as I know, F-16 has a zero level ejection seat. So why the pilot did not attempt ejection?


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## WebMaster

airmarshal said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237806081881059330
> Why the pilot did not try to eject? This is so tragic. @Windjammer
> 
> As far as I know, F-16 has a zero level ejection seat. So why the pilot did not attempt ejection?


Maybe too fast or he thought he would pull up, saving the aircraft. It hit the transmission lines. Too much risk taken here i believe. Unfortunate.

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## airmarshal

But very skilled pilot. Was worth more than the plane.

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## Windjammer

airmarshal said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237806081881059330
> Why the pilot did not try to eject? This is so tragic. @Windjammer
> 
> As far as I know, F-16 has a zero level ejection seat. So why the pilot did not attempt ejection?


You can see while the rear fuselage is on fire, both the nose and canopy of the aircraft intact when it hits the ground seems he remained with the aircraft until last minute, first trying to recover it and then avoiding the built up areas...making the supreme sacrifice.

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## araz

airmarshal said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237806081881059330
> Why the pilot did not try to eject? This is so tragic. @Windjammer
> 
> As far as I know, F-16 has a zero level ejection seat. So why the pilot did not attempt ejection?


Is it just me or was the plane already on fire before it crashed.

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## airmarshal

Windjammer said:


> You can see while the rear fuselage is on fire, both the nose and canopy of the aircraft intact when it hits the ground seems he remained with the aircraft until last minute, first trying to recover it and then avoiding the built up areas...making the supreme sacrifice.



But this is too much to give! He was worth more than the aircraft. leader of an elite squadron.

Question still remains though. Why he did not try to eject? Any technical reasons?

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## Windjammer

araz said:


> Is it just me or was the plane already on fire before it crashed.


Apparently it hit some high tension cables before it hit the ground.

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## Gripen9

krash said:


> HA! There goes another one of them! Presents everything that he had on his palm. The warrior of the sky falls from it. Is that poetic? Tell me now, how many of us have witnessed this before? Seen, with our own eyes, a brother fulfill his pledge to us? Unsung yesterday, indebted millions today. That is poetic. Wah! Proved more faithful to us than to his son, his daughter. That sher ka bacha got what he always prayed for. Then there are thousands who stand right behind him, ready to step in his stead. Thousands more behind them. Just like he was only yesterday. Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajioon! No doubt! But how many get to return the way he did?
> 
> "He was showing off"...ha! The man had hundreds of hours in that bird, had done the maneuver a hundred times before, had left two kids behind at home. He knew the risks better than any of us. Had spent years being broken and then remolded into the example of professionalism and you say he was just showing off? You think the man flying an F-16 over Islamabad in front of the entire nation needs to do anything more to show off?.....His mistake? Maybe. But pretty sure it wasn't because he was showing off. More sure he gave much more than any of us will ever have to. So if you can't respect what we owe him, respect what he gave, at least.
> 
> It hurts! I know. But take notes from the next sher who will replace him and perform this very routine.
> 
> 
> 
> Has happened to pilots whose only job is to perform these routines.
> 
> Girte hain shah sawar he maidan e jang mein.



Aptly said....
fair winds and clear skies Shaheen

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## Maarkhoor

Pilot error confirmed... RIP
@Windjammer @Socra @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Ali_Baba

I am soo sad to hear of this loss. This hurts..

That we lost such a valuable member of Pakistan and the Pakistan Airforce today is really very sad to me.

Time will tell the cause, i am sure of it. People here need to show respect for his sacrifice. This is a reality both he and his fellow airmen accept as a possibility of their profession. It is a bittersweet profession, we too know this.

My condolences to his young family. May they have the strength to cope in these trying times.

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## Aspen

Windjammer said:


> Nopes, it's becoming apparent that the aircraft malfunctioned right above Aabpara Market and the pilot steered it away from built up area.
> 
> *''Just Coming Back From Crash Site. It Is Very Close To Pak-China Friendship Center. Having The Aviation Knowledge Specially About F-16 Fighting Falcon & After Watching The Crash Videos. I Came To This Conclusion That He Gave His Life To Protect Many Civilian Lives & Also The Important Buildings. He saved Pak - China Friendship Center, Aabpara Market, Serena Hotel & Took The Aircraft To Unpopulated Spot In Shakarparian. After Insuring The Safety of Above Mentioned Prospects He Didn't Have Enough Time To Eject May Allah Bless Him With Highest Level of Paradise ''..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



What direction was the plane heading just before it crashed? Was it going north, south, east, or west?


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## SQ8

Maarkhoor said:


> Pilot error confirmed... RIP
> @Windjammer @Socra @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


I would wait for the final investigation report but the altitude when he began the loop along with ambient weather conditions seem to increase the probability of pilot error.

The F-16 is capable of serious maneuvering and putting that physical stress on a pilot. Couple that with the part time performances our pilots give; it only adds up to lower margins of error.

Look up blue angles crash of Capt Jeff Kuss.
Similar corkscrew into split S at a lower altitude than required for the maneuver.
@Knuckles @Hodor

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## undercover JIX

RIP.

Suddenly we have so many expert pilots and flight safety experts....all these experts (idiots) just watched a video clip and figured out Pilot error..kamingy ki bhi had hoti hai..cant say it nicely idiots figured out everything just by sitting their sorry asses on the chair...

aina di phatechar CD 70 kharab ho jai tay ay saray mechanic de grease aalay tatty chat chat kar saaf karday nay pay aithay aina nu sara pata ay, Pilot fault, PAF shortcoming, ay jaaz e purana te kharan si...

beghairat log, 

MODS can delete my post and encourage these idiots to bad mouth PAF Pilots and PAF.

Even if you flew F16 in the past, you were not in the cockpit to know what went on, and more importantly none of you was, is and most likely will never be Sher Afghan so shut your trap and stop insulting our Pilots and PAF.

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## SEAD

This is extremely upsetting and sad news. No one really cares about an Old F-16 - I certainly don't and I am sure neither does PAF. 

It's the irreplaceable loss of a dedicated, brave & talented Fighter Pilot that is hurting us Pakistanis. I read this news in the morning and I can't get over it - it feels as if I have suffered a personal loss.

I wish to take this opportunity to offer my deepest condolences to His Family & PAF - God Bless you brother and accept your sacrifice and Grant you a place in Jannah  Ameen.

PAF - If any member of your department is reading this, please take care of His young Family - this is the least we can do for him.

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## TsAr

araz said:


> Is it just me or was the plane already on fire before it crashed.


RIP brave Son of the Soil.....
The Plane most likely hit power cables before ultimately crashing in the trees. Till now it seems to be a pilot error but lets wait for the official inquiry.


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## Raider 21

undercover JIX said:


> RIP.
> 
> Suddenly we have so many expert pilots and flight safety experts....all these experts (idiots) just watched a video clip and figured out Pilot error..kamingy ki bhi had hoti hai..cant say it nicely idiots figured out everything just by sitting their sorry asses on the chair...
> 
> aina di phatechar CD 70 kharab ho jai tay ay saray mechanic de grease aalay tatty chat chat kar saaf karday nay pay aithay aina nu sara pata ay, Pilot fault, PAF shortcoming, ay jaaz e purana te kharan si...
> 
> beghairat log,
> 
> MODS can delete my post and encourage these idiots to bad mouth PAF Pilots and PAF.
> 
> Even if you flew F16 in the past, you were not in the cockpit to know what went on, and more importantly none of you was, is and most likely will never be Sher Afghan so shut your trap and stop insulting our Pilots and PAF.


Cool down. The pilot who got killed today just proved himself to be human no matter of his OC or Sherafghan status. Could have happened to anyone in a similar situation.

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## Vortex

How much you are skilled does not matter when you are called for last meeting. And everyone will be called for this final meeting.

Please stop talking error or what not, just pray for him and also others who left us.

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## Esgalduin

krash said:


> HA! There goes another one of them! Presents everything that he had on his palm. The warrior of the sky falls from it. Is that poetic? Tell me now, how many of us have witnessed this before? Seen, with our own eyes, a brother fulfill his pledge to us? Unsung yesterday, indebted millions today. That is poetic. Wah! Proved more faithful to us than to his son, his daughter. That sher ka bacha got what he always prayed for. Then there are thousands who stand right behind him, ready to step in his stead. Thousands more behind them. Just like he was only yesterday. Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajioon! No doubt! But how many get to return the way he did?
> 
> "He was showing off"...ha! The man had hundreds of hours in that bird, had done the maneuver a hundred times before, had left two kids behind at home. He knew the risks better than any of us. Had spent years being broken and then remolded into the example of professionalism and you say he was just showing off? You think the man flying an F-16 over Islamabad in front of the entire nation needs to do anything more to show off?.....His mistake? Maybe. But pretty sure it wasn't because he was showing off. More sure he gave much more than any of us will ever have to. So if you can't respect what we owe him, respect what he gave, at least.
> 
> It hurts! I know. But take notes from the next sher who will replace him and perform this very routine.
> 
> 
> 
> Has happened to pilots whose only job is to perform these routines.
> 
> Girte hain shah sawar he maidan e jang mein.


 
Very true and a very poignant understanding of the situation. Baat tou yeh hai kai fighter pilots face death everytime they sit in the cockpit and fly off into the air: there are hundreds of things that can go wrong with only fractions of a second to react to them. Even if all options fail, the ejection itself is risky and there is no complete guarantee of survivability. A fighter pilot risks his life when on duty whether during training or in combat, because their job requirements dictate that they take these risks. Thus it matters little to us that Wg Cdr Nouman Akram Shaheed died while practicing for a flypast or during an operation; the main thing is that he is gone, and the circumstances cannot change the loss we have suffered in any way.

Additionally, about 20k applicants try out for the Academy every year out of which around 500 are selected. Out of these 500, if we assume that all of them were commissioned (unlikely) not all of them will end up as fighter pilots. Assuming that 200 fighter pilots are commissioned, imagine only 20 of them being selected for F16 later on in there careers. All of these numbers are arbitrary and the ratios are what should be focused on. Every single Viper pilot in Pakistan belongs in the upper and most experienced ranks of our air force. There can be no second-guessing with regards to their motivations.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Condolences to the family of Wing Commander Noman Akram.

That said, given that the F-16 is a more finite wartime asset than any other fighter in the fleet, the PAF should perhaps remove it from non-essential tasks (e.g., aerobatics). It doesn't have to be permanent, but until it has secured sufficient attrition reserves. Or maybe limit aerobatics to the ex-Jordanian ADFs (keeping the upgraded MLUs and Block-52+ out)?

Not just the fighter, but the pilots who man them are the best of the best, so the organization ought to consider keeping them away from non-essential activities such as this.

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## Esgalduin

BilalAmjad456 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237867286410588161


Wrong thread, buddy


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## undercover JIX

Knuckles said:


> Cool down. The pilot who got killed today just proved himself to be human no matter of his OC or Sherafghan status. Could have happened to anyone in a similar situation.


Got Killed, Proved himself human, could be anyone, nothing to do with his skills and achievements......shows how much respect you have for PAF and shaheeds.....my post was for meant for you and others like you.

You have no Idea what went on their, no technical data, and most definitely you were not in the cockpit with the Pilot, but you figured out everything..... and what situations you are talking about???? you do not know chit about anything what went on.....

all experts like you are neem hakeem khatra e jaan.....

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## airomerix

undercover JIX said:


> RIP.
> 
> Suddenly we have so many expert pilots and flight safety experts....all these experts (idiots) just watched a video clip and figured out Pilot error..kamingy ki bhi had hoti hai..cant say it nicely idiots figured out everything just by sitting their sorry asses on the chair...
> 
> aina di phatechar CD 70 kharab ho jai tay ay saray mechanic de grease aalay tatty chat chat kar saaf karday nay pay aithay aina nu sara pata ay, Pilot fault, PAF shortcoming, ay jaaz e purana te kharan si...
> 
> beghairat log,
> 
> MODS can delete my post and encourage these idiots to bad mouth PAF Pilots and PAF.
> 
> Even if you flew F16 in the past, you were not in the cockpit to know what went on, and more importantly none of you was, is and most likely will never be Sher Afghan so shut your trap and stop insulting our Pilots and PAF.



I get where you are coming from but this not an adequate way to raise a concern. 

No one is bad mouthing PAF here. Neither is anyone ridiculing the pilot. 

Members are delibrating on the possible outcomes. 

Again, its a bad way to raise a concern.

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## Raider 21

undercover JIX said:


> Got Killed, Proved himself human, could be anyone, nothing to do with his skills and achievements......shows how much respect you have for PAF and shaheeds.....my post was for meant for you and others like you.
> 
> You have no Idea what went on their, no technical data, and most definitely you were not in the cockpit with the Pilot, but you figured out everything..... and what situations you are talking about???? you do not know chit about anything what went on.....
> 
> all experts like you are neem hakeem khatra e jaan.....


You think I don't show respect for PAF and Shaheeds??

I keep repeating, investigation board are doing their analysis. And yes the video does say a lot. I was not in the cockpit but working in the aviation industry gives me some idea. And my old man flew Vipers in PAF, not to mention he ejected in combat, so a lot what I said may come from his side of things on the incident. 

You cool down, try to relax, have a glass of water.

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## undercover JIX

airomerix said:


> I get where you are coming from but this not an adequate way to raise a concern.
> 
> No one is bad mouthing PAF here. Neither is anyone ridiculing the pilot.
> 
> Members are delibrating on the possible outcomes.
> 
> Again, its a bad way to raise a concern.


after reading 10+ pages of so called expert drawing conclusions, There is no nice way to say it. videos clearly showed to me that, how AC dived, it was not an interned maneuver.


----------



## Raider 21

Esgalduin said:


> Very true and a very poignant understanding of the situation. Baat tou yeh hai kai fighter pilots face death everytime they sit in the cockpit and fly off into the air: there are hundreds of things that can go wrong with only fractions of a second to react to them. Even if all options fail, the ejection itself is risky and there is no complete guarantee of survivability. A fighter pilot risks his life when on duty whether during training or in combat, because their job requirements dictate that they take these risks. Thus it matters little to us that Wg Cdr Nouman Akram Shaheed died while practicing for a flypast or during an operation; the main thing is that he is gone, and the circumstances cannot change the loss we have suffered in any way.
> 
> Additionally, about 20k applicants try out for the Academy every year out of which around 500 are selected. Out of these 500, if we assume that all of them were commissioned (unlikely) not all of them will end up as fighter pilots. Assuming that 200 fighter pilots are commissioned, imagine only 20 of them being selected for F16 later on in there careers. All of these numbers are arbitrary and the ratios are what should be focused on. Every single Viper pilot in Pakistan belongs in the upper and most experienced ranks of our air force. There can be no second-guessing with regards to their motivations.


20k is a bit stretched. Applicants are closer to 8k but yes the chances of getting in are low. But not impossible. Getting selected on Vipers back in the early days were far more competitive due to the new nature of the aircraft capabilities.

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## undercover JIX

Knuckles said:


> You think I don't show respect for PAF and Shaheeds??
> 
> I keep repeating, investigation board are doing their analysis. And yes the video does say a lot. I was not in the cockpit but working in the aviation industry gives me some idea. And my old man flew Vipers in PAF, not to mention he ejected in combat, so a lot what I said may come from his side of things on the incident.
> 
> You cool down, try to relax, have a glass of water.


after reading expert here, I am having plenty water.

*May *come from your old man, but all of you are forgetting this was just a rehearsal and rehearsals are done in much safer manner then actual event.....and even a blind man can see pilot struggling with the AC to gain altitude when AC nose dived...and your experience must tell you that...no pilot will try that maneuver at this height.

use your experience and express your opinion....have some rooh afza you might see things clearly.


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## Raider 21

undercover JIX said:


> after reading expert here, I am having plenty water.
> 
> *May *come from your old man, but all of you are forgetting this was just a rehearsal and rehearsals are done in much safer manner then actual event.....and even a blind man can see pilot struggling with the AC to gain altitude when AC nose dived...and your experience must tell you that...no pilot will try that maneuver at this height.
> 
> use your experience and express your opinion....have some rooh afza you might see things clearly.


Behave yourself and ending it there. Keep your emotions in check and be rational l. 

Cheers!!

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## undercover JIX

Knuckles said:


> Behave yourself and ending it there. Keep your emotions in check and be rational l.
> 
> Cheers!!



LOL at wanna be experts.


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## Humble Analyst

Inna Lillah e Inna Alehe Rajeun may Allah grant sabar to the family of this Great son of PAF. It is most unfortunate that we lost one of the most talented pilot of PAF.
The inquiry will reveal the cause of accident please do not show off your vast knowledge as respect to deceased and his close ones.

some suggestions for air shows

Hard deck should be higher than current
Altimeter settings to be cross checked with another pilot. May not be easy to implement but start with Air shows.

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## Thorough Pro

Looks like the plane was already on fire before hitting the ground. Probably hit some tree




airmarshal said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237806081881059330
> Why the pilot did not try to eject? This is so tragic. @Windjammer
> 
> As far as I know, F-16 has a zero level ejection seat. So why the pilot did not attempt ejection?


----------



## Humble Analyst

araz said:


> Is it just me or was the plane already on fire before it crashed.


Thanks this is the best footage I have seen tells a lot could have been high tension wires causing the fire or engine was already on fire hard to tell. Did he eject and got hurt and did not eject hard to say. But he stayed with the plane for quite some time.


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## TsAr

Knuckles said:


> Behave yourself and ending it there. Keep your emotions in check and be rational l.
> 
> Cheers!!


Bhai janay do ne need to waste your energies on stupid posts....

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## undercover JIX

TsAr said:


> Bhai janay do ne need to waste your energies on stupid posts....


i would love to know what stupidity I posted, please enlighten me so I can correct my mistakes.
Thanks.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Esgalduin said:


> *Every single Viper pilot in Pakistan belongs in the upper and most experienced ranks of our air force.* There can be no second-guessing with regards to their motivations.


Hence, no alternatives to the indigenous jets coupled with tons of drones of all sorts including super sonic....

For a reason Elon Musk is for drones...

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## Death Adder

undercover JIX said:


> RIP.
> 
> Suddenly we have so many expert pilots and flight safety experts....all these experts (idiots) just watched a video clip and figured out Pilot error..kamingy ki bhi had hoti hai..cant say it nicely idiots figured out everything just by sitting their sorry asses on the chair...
> 
> aina di phatechar CD 70 kharab ho jai tay ay saray mechanic de grease aalay tatty chat chat kar saaf karday nay pay aithay aina nu sara pata ay, Pilot fault, PAF shortcoming, ay jaaz e purana te kharan si...
> 
> beghairat log,
> 
> MODS can delete my post and encourage these idiots to bad mouth PAF Pilots and PAF.
> 
> Even if you flew F16 in the past, you were not in the cockpit to know what went on, and more importantly none of you was, is and most likely will never be Sher Afghan so shut your trap and stop insulting our Pilots and PAF.




You need to relax people are giving their opinions because they are sad and concerned and on top of that it was a vital war asset. Secondly, have you ever came across any technical enquiry report of last three crashes? If not, then don’t dictate others they are entitled to express their opinions. Seriously you’re acting like those marwanian bundan, ty khany kheery. 

Mods can delete me post if it’s inappropriate, but all those who are saying lets wait for enquiry report, are they certain that enquiry report will ever by published?

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## undercover JIX

Death Adder said:


> Seriously you’re acting like those marwanian bundan, ty khany kheery.



LOL can you please explain how you manage to relate this with my post? or was meant to introduce yourself?


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## Esgalduin

Knuckles said:


> 20k is a bit stretched. Applicants are closer to 8k but yes the chances of getting in are low. But not impossible. Getting selected on Vipers back in the early days were far more competitive due to the new nature of the aircraft capabilities.


Yeah I was trying to quote Kaiser Tufail about his experience but I appear to have erroneously replaced 2000 with 20000. Either way, 500 out of 8000 is still around a 94 percent attrition rate.


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## Aspen

I made this map of the trajectory of the crash. Can some confirm if this is flightpath is accurate?

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## khanasifm

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.ht

Crash data by cause of incident

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## airomerix

StormBreaker said:


> Do GCs also fly in wars ?



No they dont. 

They perform ground duties. For exam academy security is just one thing.


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## Esgalduin

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Condolences to the family of Wing Commander Noman Akram.
> 
> That said, given that the F-16 is a more finite wartime asset than any other fighter in the fleet, the PAF should perhaps remove it from non-essential tasks (e.g., aerobatics). It doesn't have to be permanent, but until it has secured sufficient attrition reserves. Or maybe limit aerobatics to the ex-Jordanian ADFs (keeping the upgraded MLUs and Block-52+ out)?
> 
> Not just the fighter, but the pilots who man them are the best of the best, so the organization ought to consider keeping them away from non-essential activities such as this.



I wonder if proximity to Parade Grounds decided the allocation of a MLU fighter to aerial display duties. Obviously, the Blk 52s are too crucial to be tasked with the aerial display and I agree with your point.

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## Crixus

Rest in peace hero ...you lived your dream ... braves even get respect from enemies

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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> Look at the nose and canopy completely intact while the rear fuselage is on fire.
> 
> View attachment 612926


The fire happens after the plane hits the power cables right before impact. Not a contributing factor in my novice opinion, as regardless of the AOA of the aircraft, there is not enough thrust available to counteract gravity very quickly thus any aircraft would lose altitude regardless of its nose position. It is possible that a tighter more aggressive AOA/recovery out of the loop could have been achieved but FBW systems usually limit extreme maneuvers, generally for pilot and aircraft safety.
The new AGCAS (Auto Ground Collision Avoidance Systems) are a new safety feature in jet fighters, though I am not sure it would have helped in this instance. Here the pilot was in complete control and was applying the correct pressure on the stick to get out of the loop. Those type of feature would have helped in the many other crashes that have occurred in the PAF such as the first JF-17 crash of the Fokker 27 crash into the hillside due to zero visibility and worldwide every year (over a 100/yr alone in the US according to NASA)
https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/Features/Auto-GCAS_Installed_in_USAF_F-16s.html

In real time the crash happened within 2 seconds or so once the pilot probably realized he was too low. Every human goes through a fight or flight mode, and PAF drills in discipline and nerves of steel in its pilots. Its evident that our dear Wng Cmdr fought till the end. May Allah grant him paradise and a place amongst His favored in the afterlife.

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## airomerix

The same aircraft #92730 as USAF F-16A block 15 #92-0406 from the 416th FLTS at Nellis AFB in 2003.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The question is why was a single pilot doing those moves---where was his partner---if no second aircraft---then why not---. 

Who was doing the check and balance act---?


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## Beast

Windjammer said:


> Basically today's crash resembles this crash of a Hunter during an airshow, the Hunter pilot however survived as he was thrown clear on impact but 11 people died on the ground,


No sight of ejection seat, how did the pilot survive?


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## NA71

Windjammer said:


> Apparently it hit some high tension cables before it hit the ground.



Folks in that area say there is no high tension lines in that particular area.


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## sneakerspark

Probable cause.

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## Ahmet Pasha

PLZ PLZ PLZ instead of some cheesy qestern song PLZ insert rah e haq k shaheedo instead. It is evergreen song. It best serves in my view to remember shuhada instead of highway to danger zone type stuff particularly for shuhada


Trailer23 said:


> ...just letting you guys know that I will most certainly be doing my part on behalf of ALL of us here at PDF by doing a Video Edit dedicated to only _Wg Cdr. Nauman Akram (Shaheed)_.
> 
> I will require some time as I do not want to do a sloppy/cheesy type of vid that are coming out (as of late). I intend to give The Departed a dedication worthy of his service to the _Pakistan Air Force_ and the _Nation_.
> 
> It will most certainly be released after the *23rd of March*, as I would like to add the _Missing Man Formation_.
> 
> Note: To those who have judged my choice of music in the past can be rest assured. This one is personal. This one is from defence.pk
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Socra @waz @Windjammer @Aamir Hussain @airomerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Ark_Angel @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @HawkEye27 @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Dil Pakistan @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Haris Ali2140 @Jinn Baba @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @Knuckles @loanranger @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @NA71 @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Sabretooth @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Vortex @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar @assasiner @PakSword @aliyusuf @PDFChamp @Ghessan @Metanoia @Counter-Errorist @Tank131

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## fatman17

We should stop all this speculation. We just lost a brave warrior.

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## NA71

GriffinsRule said:


> The fire happens after the plane hits the power cables right before impact. Not a contributing factor in my novice opinion, as regardless of the AOA of the aircraft, there is not enough thrust available to counteract gravity very quickly thus any aircraft would lose altitude regardless of its nose position. It is possible that a tighter more aggressive AOA/recovery out of the loop could have been achieved but FBW systems usually limit extreme maneuvers, generally for pilot and aircraft safety.
> The new AGCAS (Auto Ground Collision Avoidance Systems) are a new safety feature in jet fighters, though I am not sure it would have helped in this instance. Here the pilot was in complete control and was applying the correct pressure on the stick to get out of the loop. Those type of feature would have helped in the many other crashes that have occurred in the PAF such as the first JF-17 crash of the Fokker 27 crash into the hillside due to zero visibility and worldwide every year (over a 100/yr alone in the US according to NASA)
> https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/Features/Auto-GCAS_Installed_in_USAF_F-16s.html
> 
> In real time the crash happened within 2 seconds or so once the pilot probably realized he was too low. Every human goes through a fight or flight mode, and PAF drills in discipline and nerves of steel in its pilots. Its evident that our dear Wng Cmdr fought till the end. May Allah grant him paradise and a place amongst His favored in the afterlife.



Photo shot of AC just before touches the ground...no fire






Namaz- e Janaza at Muhsuf Base

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## MastanKhan

undercover JIX said:


> RIP.
> 
> Suddenly we have so many expert pilots and flight safety experts....all these experts (idiots) just watched a video clip and figured out Pilot error..kamingy ki bhi had hoti hai..cant say it nicely idiots figured out everything just by sitting their sorry asses on the chair...
> 
> aina di phatechar CD 70 kharab ho jai tay ay saray mechanic de grease aalay tatty chat chat kar saaf karday nay pay aithay aina nu sara pata ay, Pilot fault, PAF shortcoming, ay jaaz e purana te kharan si...
> 
> beghairat log,
> 
> MODS can delete my post and encourage these idiots to bad mouth PAF Pilots and PAF.
> 
> Even if you flew F16 in the past, you were not in the cockpit to know what went on, and more importantly none of you was, is and most likely will never be Sher Afghan so shut your trap and stop insulting our Pilots and PAF.



Hi,

A knowledgeable person would be able to and should be able to make that distinction---. This is not out of the ordinary---.

" You were not in the cockpit " analogy does not work---.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> A knowledgeable person would be able to and should be able to make that distinction---. This is not out of the ordinary---.
> 
> " You were not in the cockpit " analogy does not work---.


How come PAF is putting their ace pilots and top machines into "air shows" is beyond me!!!! PAF pilots are dare devils and it is highly commendable, but the senior leadership is there for a reason...

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## Genghis khan1

Thorough Pro said:


> Looks like the plane was already on fire before hitting the ground. Probably hit some tree


That seems like Ejection flash.


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## Pandora

Performance /Stunts using Jet engine aircrafts is always a risky business. Pakistan should limit public events performances to K8 which is more controllable during such situations. We should stop testing our luck with active assets considering danger to pilots. A flypast should be enough demonstration during such events.

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## Dalit

First of all may Allah have mercy on our hero. May Allah give patience to his family in this time of great loss and sorrow. He was a brave man who was doing his country a great service.

I won't indulge in any hypotheses. This is all I have to say. Time has come to invest in our home grown fighters. US fighters are a thing of the past for the PAF. We won't be getting any in the future anymore. The US won't provide F-16 or any other fighter to PAF. It is also unlikely that we buy F-16s from third parties. It all depends on US approval which in all likelihood won't come. The US is in India appeasment mode which means that selling hardware to Pakistan is next to impossible.

That leaves Pakistan with few options. The best option is to keep investing in JV projects with China.

Keep and maintain the F-16s as long as they are able to fly. Start replacing these fighters with newer blocks of JF-17. We have the equipment and ability to keep the JF-17 in top notch flying condition.

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## truthseeker2010

Beast said:


> No sight of ejection seat, how did the pilot survive?



Unfortunately he didn't.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Dalit said:


> That leaves Pakistan very few options. The best option is to keep investing in JV projects with China.


And, Turkey...

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## Dalit

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> And, Turkey...



Turkey is definitely another brotherly source that Pakistan must work with to acquire advanced fighters. I like Turkey's new 5th gen project. I have high hopes. Turkey has learnt a lot during F-35 participation. We can expect a solid 5th gen platform from Turkey. I admire Turkey's stance. It ditched the F-35 against all odds and went ahead with whatever it deemed right. Today the Americans are pleading Turkey to abandon S-400. Turkey stands firm. That is character and something we could learn a thing or two from.

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## hassan1



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## Maarkhoor

Socra said:


> I would wait for the final investigation report but the altitude when he began the loop along with ambient weather conditions seem to increase the probability of pilot error.
> 
> The F-16 is capable of serious maneuvering and putting that physical stress on a pilot. Couple that with the part time performances our pilots give; it only adds up to lower margins of error.
> 
> Look up blue angles crash of Capt Jeff Kuss.
> Similar corkscrew into split S at a lower altitude than required for the maneuver.
> @Knuckles @Hodor


F-16 designed for super maneuverable craft hence needed computer support to stabilize it with wire control, as per videos (available on you tube) a typical case of stalling probably low air pressure lost of thrust etc could be the cause....
Regards,


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## Khan_21

The Eagle said:


> Read about 23rd March in details and its importance. Internet is full of details with history references.
> 
> Regards,



It was suppose to be celebrated as Republic day celebrating constitution , leaving the Dominion and taking its place in the modern world instead like all things in PK Ayub khan gave it a militarized look in 1958.


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## The Eagle

StormBreaker said:


> @The Eagle BTW who performed on 27 Feb in Karachi ? And how good is he regarded in PAF ? Like WC Noman won the trophy last year, quite famous and respected even by Alan warnes
> 
> Reason : The aggressive maneuvering might be due to a sort of personal competition between the pilots to perform better than the other, the pilot who performed in Karachi did pull out some aggressive maneuvers and it was one of the best performance of F-16 i have ever seen. Might be that WC Noman wanted to perform even better on 23 March ?



No. None of them ever compete in a sense to cross risk line. Never.... in-fact, they are the finest among jockeys and possess individual qualities that differentiate everyone of them from others. We all need to understand that Noman Akram or any other Viper Rider, isn't some sort of flying club youth. They reach the level to fly F-16s after a lot of beating of training, rugged & rouged an forged accordingly. 

Karachi's weather was very clear/sunny and without mountains. Even an ordinary pilot will differentiate between mountain terrains and plains like Karachi.

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## StormBreaker

The Eagle said:


> No. None of them ever compete in a sense to cross risk line. Never.... in-fact, they are the finest among jockeys and possess individual qualities that differentiate everyone of them from others. We all need to understand that Noman Akram or any other Viper Rider, isn't some sort of flying club youth. They reach the level to fly F-16s after a lot of beating of training, rugged & rouged an forged accordingly.
> 
> Karachi's weather was very clear/sunny and without mountains. Even an ordinary pilot will differentiate between mountain terrains and plains like Karachi.






Seems he did eject but chute failed to function maybe because damage due to dense population of trees/branches. The death reason seems to be heavy fractures and serious injuries post/during ejection.

He tried his best till the last moment to save the jet because he couldn’t think of living with being associated with F-16 crash and given his high respect throughout the Airforce, he tried till last to save it.

Such is the Honor of our Men !!!
Allah Jisko izzat dena chahe, deta hai. Today he is trending on No.1 in Twitter Alhamdullilah. Wo bhi naam lerahe hain jo zindagi bhar fauj ko galian dete the.
#NomanAkram

Pakistan Zindabad
PAF Paa-inda-bad

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## undercover JIX

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> A knowledgeable person would be able to and should be able to make that distinction---. This is not out of the ordinary---.
> 
> " You were not in the cockpit " analogy does not work---.


oh yes, now a days everybody is expert in everything......we have internet....Mullahs, doctors, engineers, aviation experts... , do not need to be in the cockpit/flying experience of certain AC or certain qualification...we have google, friends etc....

koi had hoti hai rang bazi ki bhi..


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## The Eagle

StormBreaker said:


> Seems he did eject but chute failed to function maybe because damage due to dense population of trees/branches. The death reason seems to be heavy fractures and serious injuries post/during ejection.
> 
> He tried his best till the last moment to save the jet because he couldn’t think of living with being associated with F-16 crash and given his high respect throughout the Airforce, he tried till last to save it.
> 
> Such is the Honor of our Men !!!
> Allah Jisko izzat dena chahe, deta hai. Today he is trending on No.1 in Twitter Alhamdullilah. Wo bhi naam lerahe hain jo zindagi bhar fauj ko galian dete the.
> #NomanAkram
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad
> PAF Paa-inda-bad



A man of a faith.. A shaheed .. no body loss rather fully intact without nay sign of pain even on face. Whatever he did, irrespective of misjudgment or his mistake to not to eject before; he is hounoured because of his bravery, dedication & fighting till last moment. That's the PAF spirit.. that's the PAF blood. No retreat. 

Removed media as we aren't sharing anything as such here.

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## PradoTLC

*F-16 crash: Pakistan Air Force pilot Nauman sacrifices his life to save Islamabad population*
Decorated pilot opted not to eject and crashed in woods to avoid casualties

Published: March 11, 2020 18:43










Dubai: Wing Commander Nauman Akram who died in the Pakistan Air Force F-16 fighter jet crash on Wednesday morning in Islamabad, is being hailed as a national hero.

Initial investigations in to the crash revealed that Akram sacrificed his life to save lives of civilians in Islamabad. The pilot could have ejected the plane but instead he guided the aircraft towards woods in Shakarparian, a hill resort in Islamabad and crashed. Had he ejected the jet, it would have crashed over populated area and could have lead to massive damage and casualties.





PAF pilot Nauman Akram with his colleaguesImage Credit: Social media
A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 aircraft crashed near Shakarparian, Islamabad during rehearsals for the March 23 parade, a Pakistan Air Force spokesperson confirmed.

Netizens heaped praise on Nauman Akram and called him a national hero. “The nation lost a gem today. You were one of our finest, your services to the country will forever be remembered,” reads a tweet.





PAF Wing Commander Nauman Akram with Pakistan Army Chief General Javed Qamar Bajwa before his recent flight on F-16.Image Credit: PAF
Nauman who embraced martyrdom was one of the best pilots at the PAF. He also recently flew Pakistan Army Chief General Qamar Javed Bajawa in an F-16. The videos of his flight with General also went viral.

Wing Comander Noman Akram Winner of SherAfghan Tropgy2019 Embraced Martyrdom In F16Crash Near Shakarparian Parade Ground.

Rest in Peace Sir,U were one of the Finst F-16Pilot PAF Had,Your srvics wil nvr be frgotn.
Los of F-16 is Tragic but evn more so A Life of A Pilot is pricles.





https://twitter.com/intent/like?tweet_id=1237658228139405312
https://twitter.com/X2tym


Mubashir Zaidi, a Pakistani journalist, tweeted: “Air Force officials say Shaheed Wing Commander Nauman Akram could have easily ejected when the F-16 was over Blue Area (a high-end commercial and residential area in Islamabad) but he ensured that the plane go down in a secluded area to avoid casualties on the ground.”

Wing Commander Akram was also the winner of prestigious ‘Sher Afghan’ Trophy 2019 being marksman in Inter Squadron Armament Competition. He was survived by a widow and two children.






Wing Commander Akram receiving the prestigious ‘Sher Afghan’ Trophy 2019 for being marksman in Inter Squadron Armament CompetitionImage Credit:

Zain Hassan Jafri, another tweep, writes: “He didn’t eject. He gave his life for 2 reasons: To lift up the asset (F-16) and to save civilians from aircraft. _*But, he forgot one thing, he was the actual asset.*_”

A PAF statement reads: “Pakistan Air Force reports with regret that a PAF F-16 aircraft crashed near Shakarparian, Islamabad during the rehearsals of March 23 parade. A board of inquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident.”

Shakarparian is a hill and famous picnic spot for residents in the capital, located near the Zero Point Interchange in Islamabad.

*Recent PAF aircraft crashes*
A PAF trainer aircraft crashed on February 12 during a routine training mission near Takht Bhai in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa’s Mardan district. It was the third PAF training aircraft to have crashed while on a routine training mission in less than two months.

On Feb 7, a PAF Mirage aircraft, which was also on a routine operational training mission, had crashed near the Lahore-Multan Motorway. Pilots in both cases had ejected safely.

A PAF aircraft had crashed in early January while on a training flight near Mianwali. Both pilots — Squadron Leader Haris bin Khalid and Flying Officer Ibaadur Rehman — aboard the PAF FT-7 aircraft lost their lives in the crash.


https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pak...-life-to-save-islamabad-population-1.70313717

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## The Eagle

undercover JIX said:


> oh yes, now a days everybody is expert in everything......we have internet....Mullahs, doctors, engineers, aviation experts... , do not need to be in the cockpit/flying experience of certain AC or certain qualification...we have google, friends etc....
> 
> koi had hoti hai rang bazi ki bhi..



You can try to add to the topic in hand. Please don't derail thread. We can choose to disagree with people and move on. No one is here to prove someone wrong. It's already been enough of these posts. 

Regards,

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## Mav3rick

This is indeed a great loss, I was very sad when I heard the terrible news and especially so when I heard that the Pilot had also gone down. Loss of life is always painful, especially that of a skilled warrior. 

And the loss of an F-16 too is unbearable, we already have too few of these to be losing them. We can always train new pilots as we have no shortage of youth who are lining up for PAF and other military roles. However, it is much harder to acquire F-16's or their replacements. 

So basically, a very very sad incident all over.


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## The Eagle



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## wasileo80

Windjammer said:


> Nopes, it's becoming apparent that the aircraft malfunctioned right above Aabpara Market and the pilot steered it away from built up area.
> 
> *''Just Coming Back From Crash Site. It Is Very Close To Pak-China Friendship Center. Having The Aviation Knowledge Specially About F-16 Fighting Falcon & After Watching The Crash Videos. I Came To This Conclusion That He Gave His Life To Protect Many Civilian Lives & Also The Important Buildings. He saved Pak - China Friendship Center, Aabpara Market, Serena Hotel & Took The Aircraft To Unpopulated Spot In Shakarparian. After Insuring The Safety of Above Mentioned Prospects He Didn't Have Enough Time To Eject May Allah Bless Him With Highest Level of Paradise ''..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


But @Windjammer this area is approximately 2 KM away from parade ground and this loop maneuver should be in the area front of parade ground in 1 KM radius..and the maneuver also showed its not adjusting move of aircraft for next maneuver.. it clearly showed that WC was practicing loop and the area where he was performing the loop is not the place for such maneuver when you have audience to watch it. That maneuver should be in the front of the audience in 1 KM radius... but dont understand the position of such maneuver with respect to 23rd March rehearsal. Any how it is a great loss for PAF, nation and his family... ALLAH reward him Jannah and give sabar to his family. Ameen.


----------



## zarabesunni



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## StormBreaker

@Trailer23 Use this as well.
Last journey of the Pilot


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237952922027163649

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## StormBreaker

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238007836589936640

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## NA71

M.AsfandYar said:


> He ejected. Someone shot a vid of his body and with attachted to parts of seat and parachute.
> 
> 
> He ejected. Someone shot a vid of his body and with attachted to parts of seat and parachute.
> 
> He did.



I extracted a photo from that video clip....showing his seat and Parachute _



_

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## Adam_Khan

NA71 said:


> I extracted a photo from that video clip....showing his seat and Parachute
> _
> View attachment 613025
> _



This is from the F.T7P crash in Mianwali in which both the pilots ejected but died.


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## Trailer23

NA71 said:


> I extracted a photo from that video clip....showing his seat and Parachute
> _
> View attachment 613025
> _


Why do people have to put freakin' emojis in all pictures?!!

What idiots...!!!

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## Zulfiqar

Trailer23 said:


> Why do people have to put freakin' emojis in all pictures?!!
> 
> What idiots...!!!



I saw that video as well on whatsapp. It looks like from another crash as the location looks rural and pilot looked different as well.


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## Amaa'n

The Eagle said:


> A man of a faith.. A shaheed .. no body loss rather fully intact without nay sign of pain even on face. Whatever he did, irrespective of misjudgment or his mistake to not to eject before; he is hounoured because of his bravery, dedication & fighting till last moment. That's the PAF spirit.. that's the PAF blood. No retreat.
> 
> Removed media as we aren't sharing anything as such here.


can you please DM me the link, i need to show it to my father.....he watched Haqeqaat TV and wont believe me that pilot did eject last min......have told him many times HQTV is bs don't watch it....

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## sneakerspark

NA71 said:


> I extracted a photo from that video clip....showing his seat and Parachute
> _
> View attachment 613025
> _


That's from a different crash. Aircraft was a two seater. Probably ft-7


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## StormBreaker

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> can you please DM me the link, i need to show it to my father.....he watched Haqeqaat TV and wont believe me that pilot did eject last min......have told him many times HQTV is bs don't watch it....




My apologies to you brother, i can feel it.
Whole of my ‘Khaandan’ is suffering from this bs



Super Falcon said:


> First of allthanking youfor tagging me
> 
> Pakistan should now consider buy a batch of new twin engine jets most of our F 16 fleet is 40 yers old no matter how much you upgrade it air craft structure remains the older so better of buy new jets


Don’t derail

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## NA71

Adam_Khan said:


> This is from the F.T7P crash in Mianwali in which both the pilots ejected but died.


No bro... i have full video ...the site , his body, people around him adjusting his head, his helmet etc....That was not appropriate to post here.



Trailer23 said:


> Why do people have to put freakin' emojis in all pictures?!!
> 
> What idiots...!!!


The person who captured this video and later posted in S/media added this ...i tried to remove it but Parachute was needed to show here.



sneakerspark said:


> That's from a different crash. Aircraft was a two seater. Probably ft-7


 i mentioned ...it was taken from same clip...F16 crash site.

Someone has posted entire clip on twitter now. you can verify


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## Reichmarshal

The Gp capt. Did eject but died....he did say the kalma shadat as heard on the RT

Their was a prob with the PAF aces 2 ejection seats inventory as most had developed cracks n i had written about it in detail on this forum, dont know if the seats were replaced or the PAF was waiting for some one to die n than do it.

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## Super Falcon

Human soul is more important than entite F 16 fleet

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## Irfan Baloch

Pandora said:


> Performance /Stunts using Jet engine aircrafts is always a risky business. Pakistan should limit public events performances to K8 which is more controllable during such situations. We should stop testing our luck with active assets considering danger to pilots. A flypast should be enough demonstration during such events.


this is my thinking long ago before this crash that there way too many shows and we are putting our top tier jets and experienced pilots on the line to display some acrobatics that might have no value or use in current air battles and are only meant to impress the public and endanger the pilot, the jet and the people below.
this is not a complaint on PAF, other world airforces of West and East have similar or even more horrific incidents.

I was expecting a tragedy like this after PAF increased these airshows and performances to many fold in recent years
even some of the stunts pulled by JF17 pilots are jaw dropping and I dread that the jet might stall and drop like a stone.

for the sake of public display and impressions I would want PAF to switch to Mashaks and K8 only for acrobatics there is already a sherdil team that does impressive job and do check the stunts pulled by Redbull airshows 

and for the thrill and sake of breaking the sound barrier PAF can use their one jet just to do the high speed flight past. 
PAF might reconsider or maybe not. I hope it does

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## AsianLion

Zain Hassan Jafri, another tweep, writes: “He didn’t eject. He gave his life for 2 reasons: To lift up the asset (F-16) and to save civilians from aircraft. _*But, he forgot one thing, he was the actual asset.*_”

Nauman Akram a genius pilot belonged to Lahore, Defence DHA.


One thing, it happens guys, old F16s now, but PAF should ask to practice 1 KM infront of audience and not at the so far away.

Also God willing, if crash happened in rehearsal on actual 23rd March....that would be shameful.

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## Reichmarshal

For all the wrist slitters why doesent the PAF stop flying altogether or better yet why don't me disband PAF..end of story !

The risk is part of the job n it happens to the best all around the world. No where do u see or hear them stop flying or flying lesser a.c.

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## Trailer23

Wg Cdr. Nauman Akram's son with Governer of Punjab, Ch M Sarwar.

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## Adam_Khan

NA71 said:


> No bro... i have full video ...the site , his body, people around him adjusting his head, his helmet etc....That was not appropriate to post here.
> 
> 
> The person who captured this video and later posted in S/media added this ...i tried to remove it but Parachute was needed to show here.
> 
> 
> i mentioned ...it was taken from same clip...F16 crash site.
> 
> Someone has posted entire clip on twitter now. you can verify



Bro seen this video weeks ago,it's not from this crash and this is the body of the Squadron leader who died in that crash.


----------



## NA71

Adam_Khan said:


> Bro seen this video weeks ago,it's not from this crash and this is the body of the Squadron leader who died in that crash.


 Sir I asked you to check on twitter multiple handles have posted this clip....and check the last frame from where the clip restarts. please.


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## Adam_Khan

NA71 said:


> Sir I asked you to check on twitter multiple handles have posted this clip....and check the last frame from where the clip restarts. please.



They are all incorrect dear,this is from the FT.7P crash in Mianwali.

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## NA71

Adam_Khan said:


> They are all incorrect dear,this is from the FT.7P crash in Mianwali.



OK ...i could not post what i got from other media sources....leave it to Inquiry board


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## SIPRA

NA71 said:


> OK ...i could not post what i got from other media sources....leave it to Inquiry board



I think that had this video been of this incidence, by now, it would have been on all the mainstream media and channels.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Khanivore said:


> Apologies for posting this but this woman is an imbecile. Good lord...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238065895433478145


lack of education and stupidity. this will become an international meme and join the hall of shame as top youtube bloopers

the worse part is that in her mind she thinks she hasn't made a mistake and is really proud of injecting English in her comments.

even native speakers on Fox news have made embarrassing comments but they realized and were mortified and sheepishly laughed or were shocked over their mistakes and apologized, this lady just continues

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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


>


Wind, I NEED THIS PIC without the labels & arrows for my upcoming project.

Help a brother out.

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## Windjammer

Trailer23 said:


> Wind, I NEED THIS PIC without the labels & arrows for my upcoming project.
> 
> Help a brother out.

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## airomerix

There was no ejection. 

If anyone thinks otherwise has been misinformed.

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## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


> lack of education and stupidity. this will become an international meme and join the hall of shame as top youtube bloopers
> 
> the worse part is that in her mind she thinks she hasn't made a mistake and is really proud of injecting English in her comments.
> 
> even native speakers on Fox news have made embarrassing comments but they realized and were mortified and sheepishly laughed or were shocked over their mistakes and apologized, this lady just continues


You can be sure the F-16 victim next door are certainly not losing the opportunity to viral this clip.
Shahid Latif can be seen both puzzled and disturbed by the situation but the poor guy doesn't know what to do.

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## airomerix

Irfan Baloch said:


> lack of education and stupidity. this will become an international meme and join the hall of shame as top youtube bloopers
> 
> the worse part is that in her mind she thinks she hasn't made a mistake and is really proud of injecting English in her comments.
> 
> even native speakers on Fox news have made embarrassing comments but they realized and were mortified and sheepishly laughed or were shocked over their mistakes and apologized, this lady just continues



I think mistakes happen. 

Aviation vocabulary is not common anyway. However, it would have been better if she confused it with 'injection' and not what she said. 

Pure bad luck.

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## Windjammer

airomerix said:


> There was no ejection.
> 
> If anyone thinks otherwise has been misinformed.


Till the time of impact, canopy is still intact as the selfless pilot tries desperately to both save the aircraft and avoid built-up area.

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> Till the time of impact, canopy is still intact as the selfless pilot tries desperately to both save the aircraft and avoid built-up area.




Fighter Pilots all around the world knows as what Noman Akram did and it wasn't a mere crash of plane. The man didn't give up till his death... the real warrior..... indeed a Sher Afgan.

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## airomerix

Windjammer said:


> Till the time of impact, canopy is still intact as the selfless pilot tries desperately to both save the aircraft and avoid built-up area.



Yes. The seat has been found intact with some parts of the cockpit.

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## Windjammer

NA71 said:


> Folks in that area say there is no high tension lines in that particular area.


Well this destroyed electric transformer at the crash site tells us otherwise.


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## TsAr

Windjammer said:


> Well this destroyed electric transformer at the crash site tells us otherwise.


Electric wires are there but it was not the cause of the air crash.

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## SIPRA

Windjammer said:


> Well this destroyed electric transformer at the crash site tells us otherwise.



These transformers are installed on 11 kV lines (3 cables in parallel, on tubular poles), which are quite common. It means that there were no HT lines of 132 kV, 220 kV or 500 kV.


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## Windjammer

TsAr said:


> Electric wires are there but it was not the cause of the air crash.





SIPRA said:


> These transformers are installed on 11 kV lines (3 cables in parallel, on tubular poles), which are quite common. It means that there were no HT lines of 132 kV, 220 kV or 500 kV.


No what they are saying is the aircraft hit some of these wires before it impact on the ground.


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## SIPRA

Windjammer said:


> No what they are saying is the aircraft hit some of these wires before it impact on the ground.



I mean, it might have hit some 11 kV line, which are quite common. The transformer shown is installed on these 11 kV lines.


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## TsAr

Windjammer said:


> No what they are saying is the aircraft hit some of these wires before it impact on the ground.


Well yes the plane could have hit electric lines as it came in too low....PAF has been performing in that area for some years now and are aware of the transmission lines are any other hazard....the issue was plane did not possess enough height for the maneuver


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## Windjammer

Beast said:


> No sight of ejection seat, how did the pilot survive?


As i said the impact threw him clear, in the images below you can see the canopy open and the pilot being led to safety by some of the spectators.















TsAr said:


> Well yes the plane could have hit electric lines as it came in too low....PAF has been performing in that area for some years now and are aware of the transmission lines are any other hazard....the issue was plane did not possess enough height for the maneuver


More than that the descent speed was very high....leading to speculation if something had malfunction while executing the loop.

Here's another classical example of an Italian Typhoon failing to come out of its loop, ostensibly the pilot has his afterburners engaged during the decent.


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> As i said the impact threw him clear, in the images below you can see the canopy open and the pilot being led to safety by some of the spectators.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More than that the descent speed was very high....leading to speculation if something had malfunction while executing the loop.


The Hunter crash looked like an accelerated stall in one of the videos. The PAF Viper was far more faster and did not have energy to pull up. Trim settings may have helped, yet it happened very fast.

On a sidenote, seeing his son in a funeral and cleaning out the desk & locker of the deceased pilot is one of the hardest times one would fathom.



Windjammer said:


> As i said the impact threw him clear, in the images below you can see the canopy open and the pilot being led to safety by some of the spectators.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More than that the descent speed was very high....leading to speculation if something had malfunction while executing the loop.
> 
> Here's another classical example of an Italian Typhoon failing to come out of its loop, ostensibly the pilot has his afterburners engaged during the decent.


I think this was a Typhoon test pilot who G-LOCed.

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## ghazi52

DG ISPR
@OfficialDGISPR

COAS paid glowing tribute on shahadat of brave heart Wing Commander Noman Akram in the line of duty. ”Laying one’s life is the ultimate sacrifice one can make for defence of the motherland. May his soul rest in peace. My thoughts and sincere prayers for the bereaved family.” COAS




9:44 AM · Mar 11, 2020

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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> The Hunter crash looked like an accelerated stall in one of the videos. The PAF Viper was far more faster and did not have energy to pull up. Trim settings may have helped, yet it happened very fast.


The point is the notably high speed during descent which is very unusual after the loop


> On a sidenote, seeing his son in a funeral and cleaning out the desk & locker of the deceased pilot is one of the hardest times one would fathom.


yes it must be soul-destroying for all those involved.


> I think this was a Typhoon test pilot who G-LOCed.



But as can be seen, both his afterburners are lit when he hits the water....possibly trying to gain energy.

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## ghazi52

They are the defenders of Pakistan #NomanAkram sacrificed his life. Shaheen got a garland of the roses as he was Sher Afghan.

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## Windjammer



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## NA71

Windjammer said:


> Well this destroyed electric transformer at the crash site tells us otherwise.


I have posted.... Previously.... It is low tension PMT .. HT transformers are basically installed in grids...

The wheel on groung and cable hanging on tree says it all... Pole mounted transformer with foundation structure.... Used in distribution nw.


----------



## StormBreaker

Irfan Baloch said:


> lack of education and stupidity. this will become an international meme and join the hall of shame as top youtube bloopers
> 
> the worse part is that in her mind she thinks she hasn't made a mistake and is really proud of injecting English in her comments.
> 
> even native speakers on Fox news have made embarrassing comments but they realized and were mortified and sheepishly laughed or were shocked over their mistakes and apologized, this lady just continues


Ye kia ejaculation ejaculation lagay hoa hai 
@Mangus Ortus Novem Insani fitrat kabhi na kabhi samnay aa hi jati hai anjanay mein, ye hai haqeeqat e media persons...



Windjammer said:


> Well this destroyed electric transformer at the crash site tells us otherwise.


This is for LT cables, not HT

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## NA71

StormBreaker said:


> Ye kia ejaculation ejaculation lagay hoa hai
> @Mangus Ortus Novem Insani fitrat kabhi na kabhi samnay aa hi jati hai anjanay mein, ye hai haqeeqat e media persons...
> 
> 
> This is for LT cables, not HT


I have explained it.. Previous posts.... HT network is not there.....

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## StormBreaker

Grieving kid accompanied by Governor Punjab and ACM Mujahid

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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> View attachment 613091
> View attachment 613092
> 
> 
> Grieving kid accompanied by Governor Punjab and ACM Mujahid


I have shared something with you on the other forum.

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## MastanKhan

undercover JIX said:


> oh yes, now a days everybody is expert in everything......we have internet....Mullahs, doctors, engineers, aviation experts... , do not need to be in the cockpit/flying experience of certain AC or certain qualification...we have google, friends etc....
> 
> koi had hoti hai rang bazi ki bhi..



Hi,

For the ignorant---illiterate---it is nowadays everyone knows---. But for those who have been in the know---it has been for the decades---.

What happens more often now is that information is readily available to anyone who seeks it---.

In the past---you had to go search---read---talk to different people---.

But it nowadays everyone knows then why so many posters ask me to provide links---.

Which means---that even if they think they know---they are pretending.

But not our "Knuckles".



Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> How come PAF is putting their ace pilots and top machines into "air shows" is beyond me!!!! PAF pilots are dare devils and it is highly commendable, but the senior leadership is there for a reason...



Hi,

That is indeed the case---but the very important question is where is his guide---he is on a practice run---there must be someone to watch over him making this move---.



Windjammer said:


> The point is the notably high speed during descent which is very unusual after the loop
> 
> yes it must be soul-destroying for all those involved.
> 
> 
> But as can be seen, both his afterburners are lit when he hits the water....possibly trying to gain energy.



Hi,

I think he was too fast---maybe he hit an air pocket coming up---possibly some wind shear---if he hit the high voltage power lines then he would have gone out of control---.

Bottomline---he should have not been that close to the ground in the first place in the mountain surrounding.

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## salman-1

Naumaan Akram had ejected as shown in the video his jasdey khaki lying intact with strangled parachute. This parachute did not fully open to save him from impact. This parachute problem has occurred previously as well, when Jf17 crashed.


----------



## airomerix

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For the ignorant---illiterate---it is nowadays everyone knows---. But for those who have been in the know---it has been for the decades---.
> 
> What happens more often now is that information is readily available to anyone who seeks it---.
> 
> In the past---you had to go search---read---talk to different people---.
> 
> But it nowadays everyone knows then why so many posters ask me to provide links---.
> 
> Which means---that even if they think they know---they are pretending.
> 
> But not our "Knuckles".



Now sure what to address here. 100% rhetoric. 




> Hi,
> 
> That is indeed the case---but the very important question is where is his guide---he is on a practice run---there must be someone to watch over him making this move---.




This is not some grave mistake of the 'leadership' again (where you are trying to go)

Clearly, you have no idea how Air Forces work. 

OC of a squadron is someone who DOES NOT need oversight in flying. 

OC 9 in PAF has a rich flying experience, often the Sherafghan CCS graduate, illustrious career as a squadron pilot, pair leader, section leader, flight commander and only then, he gets to command a squadron (IF he graduates from CCS that is) 

Only the inquiry will tell why did he not abide by the rules or what made his aircraft come into this position. 



> Hi,
> 
> I think he was too fast---maybe he hit an air pocket coming up---possibly some wind shear---if he hit the high voltage power lines then he would have gone out of control---.
> 
> Bottomline---he should have not been that close to the ground in the first place in the mountain surrounding.



The only reasonable part of your post. I agree with your bottom line.

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## Skywalker

StormBreaker said:


> View attachment 613091
> View attachment 613092
> 
> 
> Grieving kid accompanied by Governor Punjab and ACM Mujahid


Although I have my job worries these days as it is hanging in a doldrums but these pictures are just slitting my heart into thousand pieces.

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## Raider 21

salman-1 said:


> Naumaan Akram had ejected as shown in the video his jasdey khaki lying intact with strangled parachute. This parachute did not fully open to save him from impact. This parachute problem has occurred previously as well, when Jf17 crashed.


In that video it is very obvious is not even an F-16 pilot, the harness for Viper drivers is not shown



airomerix said:


> Now sure what to address here. 100% rhetoric.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not some grave mistake of the 'leadership' again (where you are trying to go)
> 
> Clearly, you have no idea how Air Forces work.
> 
> OC of a squadron is someone who DOES NOT need oversight in flying.
> 
> OC 9 in PAF has a rich flying experience, often the Sherafghan CCS graduate, illustrious career as a squadron pilot, pair leader, section leader, flight commander and only then, he gets to command a squadron (IF he graduates from CCS that is)
> 
> *Only the inquiry will tell why did he not abide by the rules or what made his aircraft come into this position. *
> 
> 
> 
> The only reasonable part of your post. I agree with your bottom line.


And I hope a report is more available than the last ones. Flight safety and awareness would enhance. I have read some USAF AIB reports, and they give very insightful details.

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## StormBreaker

salman-1 said:


> See the face, when the man lifts his head, pause it there. It is Naumaan Akrams face. Looks the same to me. Same beard and face
> 
> Please use a bit of brain.
> 100% of the surrounding population is dressed and appear by facial features as from KPK area, here it implies Mianwali and the lush greenry seconds it...


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

salman-1 said:


> See the face, when the man lifts his head, pause it there. It is Naumaan Akrams face. Looks the same to me. Same beard and face


What's the point in posting such graphic pictures? Some stuffs are supposed to be kept in _Mehrem..._

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## aliyusuf

salman-1 said:


> See the face, when the man lifts his head, pause it there. It is Naumaan Akrams face. Looks the same to me. Same beard and face


Seems like the beard is a bit more grown than what we have seen on the deceased wing commander.


----------



## Windjammer

salman-1 said:


> [kkkk]. That's the link of that video.


Why do you guys feel the need to post such disturbing images.
For the records, the above video is of S/L Harris Bin Khalid who embarrassed martyrdom along with his trainee pilot when their F-7 crashed early in January.

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## Ghessan

Trailer23 said:


> ...just letting you guys know that I will most certainly be doing my part on behalf of ALL of us here at PDF by doing a Video Edit dedicated to only _Wg Cdr. Nauman Akram (Shaheed)_.
> 
> I will require some time as I do not want to do a sloppy/cheesy type of vid that are coming out (as of late). I intend to give The Departed a dedication worthy of his service to the _Pakistan Air Force_ and the _Nation_.
> 
> It will most certainly be released after the *23rd of March*, as I would like to add the _Missing Man Formation_.
> 
> Note: To those who have judged my choice of music in the past can be rest assured. This one is personal. This one is from defence.pk
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @Arsalan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Socra @waz @Windjammer @Aamir Hussain @airomerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Ark_Angel @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @HawkEye27 @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Dil Pakistan @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Haris Ali2140 @Jinn Baba @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @Knuckles @loanranger @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @NA71 @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Sabretooth @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Vortex @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar @assasiner @PakSword @aliyusuf @PDFChamp @Ghessan @Metanoia @Counter-Errorist @Tank131



anxiously waiting, this man deserve honor, any way we can give.


----------



## salman-1

My objective was not to humiliate any body. I thought it was Naumaan Akrams jasdey khaki. Still if he is not him, he's our shaheed and I have all respect for him.


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## Dazzler

Respect!

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## shaded

airmarshal said:


> But very skilled pilot. Was worth more than the plane.


NO PLANE IS EVER WORTH MORE THAN THE PILOT .


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## airomerix

salman-1 said:


> My objective was not to humiliate any body. I thought it was Naumaan Akrams jasdey khaki. Still if he is not him, he's our shaheed and I have all respect for him.



There is another way. Try looking at details of ejection seats. Martin baker 00 and ACES have considerable differences. Most of us have never met these pilots. Instead of trying to look at their faces and posting here, look at other clues. You'll get your answer.

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## Windjammer

*Assesment by a well known analyst.*

Possibility: Looks like Compressor stalls soon after the last maneuver. The pilot tried till last moment 2 save the jet bcz there's a chance stalls may break at steady flows, hence he didn't eject His last maneuver before the crash exhibits his excellent competency

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## Dazzler

@The Eagle 

You are needed mate...

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## Windjammer

Stall blow out before the jet hit the ground. During crash landing, tail end hit first that led to sudden explosion Shows WingCommanderNomanAkram was trying till last to recover engine from stall stages.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> *Assesment by a well known analyst.*
> 
> Possibility: Looks like Compressor stalls soon after the last maneuver. The pilot tried till last moment 2 save the jet bcz there's a chance stalls may break at steady flows, hence he didn't eject His last maneuver before the crash exhibits his excellent competency


If it was a compressor stall it would've come as a warning in the cockpit, and chances are he would have ejected. Less likely he would be pulling himself all the way to go close to the ground. Accelerated stall is very possible and probably happened near the ground. Still many variables, but compressor stall would've got him an indication.

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## airomerix

Windjammer said:


> *Assesment by a well known analyst.*
> 
> Possibility: Looks like Compressor stalls soon after the last maneuver. The pilot tried till last moment 2 save the jet bcz there's a chance stalls may break at steady flows, hence he didn't eject His last maneuver before the crash exhibits his excellent competency





Windjammer said:


> Stall blow out before the jet hit the ground. During crash landing, tail end hit first that led to sudden explosion Shows WingCommanderNomanAkram was trying till last to recover engine from stall stages.




Both of these posts are based on a wild assumption that aircraft did stall. 

The possibility is very bleak because F-16 does have anti stall devices such as multi spool compressor & turbines, inlet glide vanes etc. 

Furthermore, F-16s FBW also prevents stall by not allowing pilot to lets say 'slow down vis a vis AoA'

In simpler words, the maneuver pictured is far from giving birth to a theory of possible engine stall.

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## Amaa'n

Windjammer said:


> Stall blow out before the jet hit the ground. During crash landing, tail end hit first that led to sudden explosion Shows WingCommanderNomanAkram was trying till last to recover engine from stall stages.


i have been screaming that since yesterday morning and so did @StormBreaker , but Compressor stall is an Immediate cause factor not underlying factor or root cause. 
this is like saying that the person died of cardiac arrest which is fine to know, but what led to the cardiac arrest, what other factors contributed to the incident need to be determined. Based on findings, SOP will be amended so the other person does not develop conditions thats can cause Cardiac arrest.

below are few incident investigation techniques that are very common in every industry. there are few more that are complex systems are deployed as required .....Bow Tie, Root Cause Analysis, SCAT, HAZOP etc

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## Windjammer

On Sept. 3, during its display at the AIRPOWER 2016 airshow in Zeltweg, the “Viper” of the Belgian Air Force F-16 Solo Display Team suffered an apparent compressor stall that forced the pilot to perform a precautionary landing.
Compressor stalls (sometimes referred to as afterburner stalls in aircraft with reheat) are not too rare among military aircraft. They can be caused by several factors, including birdstrikes, FOD (Foreign Object Damage), ingestion of turbulent or hot airflow into the air intake etc.


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## TsAr

salman-1 said:


> See the face, when the man lifts his head, pause it there. It is Naumaan Akrams face. Looks the same to me. Same beard and face


this is not shakarparian or surrounding area (I live nearby), so please lets stop this discussion here.


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## Amaa'n

airomerix said:


> Both of these posts are based on a wild assumption that aircraft did stall.
> 
> The possibility is very bleak because F-16 does have anti stall devices such as multi spool compressor & turbines, inlet glide vanes etc.
> 
> Furthermore, F-16s FBW also prevents stall by not allowing pilot to lets say 'slow down vis a vis AoA'
> 
> In simpler words, the maneuver pictured is far from giving birth to a theory of possible engine stall.


i beg to disagree Sir....F16A has three reported incidents of Stagnation stall / Compressor stall following high angle of attack and low speed....the aircraft of BAF was being pushed to the limit when encountered Compressor stall.....there can be many other factors at play here.....

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## StormBreaker

@Foxtrot Alpha Some videos don’t look like it was a loop


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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> *Assesment by a well known analyst.*
> 
> Possibility: Looks like Compressor stalls soon after the last maneuver. The pilot tried till last moment 2 save the jet bcz there's a chance stalls may break at steady flows, hence he didn't eject His last maneuver before the crash exhibits his excellent competency



Hi

if what you wrote is correct then it is very poor directive to the pilot.

Wing Commanders don’t grow on trees.
Aircraft will be replaced pilot cannot be.

Paf needs yo re visit “saving the aircraft “ mindset.

one too many pilots have lost their lives.

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## StormBreaker

It is clearly a Split-S.
@Foxtrot Alpha @The Eagle @Windjammer 

There are 2 Precautions to perform a Split-S, the second one is the possible reason just when he turned down towards the Ground.


Make sure you start from a safe altitude. Don't start a Split-S below 3000 feet (914 meters).
Airspeed builds quickly in the dive. *Make sure you pull the nose on through to level flight, but don't pull so hard that you induce a stall.*

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## Sinnerman108

Aerobatics are supposed to be performed by pilots, that specialize in just that 
on airplanes which are customized for that purpose. 

I don't understand why did a front line pilot and fighter plane, had to be forced to do monkey business.

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## StormBreaker

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> if what you wrote is correct then it is very poor directive to the pilot.
> 
> Wing Commanders don’t grow on trees.
> Aircraft will be replaced pilot cannot be.
> 
> Paf needs yo re visit “saving the aircraft “ mindset.
> 
> one too many pilots have lost their lives.


Sir,

Imagine yourself being WC Noman for a minute. You have won SherAfghan, You are respected throughout the PAF and many foreign people. You were honored to pilot the flight of COAS Bajwa out of all other Pilots (Although he was at advantage due to being OC), You know very well that your Air force lacks the required strength and that F-16 is a scarce jet, Officers below you see you as inspiration,

Now you are flying F-16, rehearsing for Parade Day, suddenly you come to understand that there has been some sort of mistake, and the very next moment your ‘over-the-years’ adapted mindset of “Aircraft Bachao” soch comes up, you wouldn’t want anyone, junior or senior, others to see you as someone who lost an aircraft, You are forced to defend your honor (even though PAF instructs to let go off the aircraft and save yourself), you try to the last moment, do or die....

How can i say any further ? Anyone who can say any further would be someone who has seen death from mm distance and that he knows the ‘nearing-to-death’ mindset.

Pure intentions of the Deceased Pilot, but he should have saved himself. A $60mn aircraft is worth less than the years of training he had. Take a look at adversary, they buy aircrafts worth $80mn+ and yet the outcome... Pilot matters, not the jet. They can come, Pilots are irreplaceable

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Stall blow out before the jet hit the ground. During crash landing, tail end hit first that led to sudden explosion Shows WingCommanderNomanAkram was trying till last to recover engine from stall stages.


Dude that's the jet catching fire and probably AB engaged as well,just before this ball of fire you can see a spark which is actually because of the jet hitting high voltage wires.


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## Amavous

Its often reported that there is a replacement clause in the original agreement between USA and Pakistan meaning Pakistan doesn't require any approval from congress for the replacement unit as a specific number of F-16 are already approved for sale.

Can someone please provide any details for replacement unit procurement or how it was done in case of past crashed units

Can LM directly provide a single unit to Pakistan or it will be via pentagon? 
Can Pakistan op for the later version of F-16 as a replacement (Later than the one which has crashed)

It may cost us around 80Millon USD for a single unit.


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## Raider 21

Amavous said:


> Its often reported that there is a replacement clause in the original agreement between USA and Pakistan meaning Pakistan doesn't require any approval from congress for the replacement unit as a specific number of F-16 are already approved for sale.
> 
> Can someone please provide any details for replacement unit procurement or how it was done in case of past crashed units
> 
> Can LM directly provide a single unit to Pakistan or it will be via pentagon?
> Can Pakistan op for the later version of F-16 as a replacement (Later than the one which has crashed)
> 
> It may cost us around 80Millon USD for a single unit.


There is no replacement cause if the jet lands and is in service in Pakistan. There is a clause during the delivery and flight testing phase.



StormBreaker said:


> Sir,
> 
> Imagine yourself being WC Noman for a minute. You have won SherAfghan, You are respected throughout the PAF and many foreign people. You were honored to pilot the flight of COAS Bajwa out of all other Pilots (Although he was at advantage due to being OC), You know very well that your Air force lacks the required strength and that F-16 is a scarce jet, Officers below you see you as inspiration,
> 
> Now you are flying F-16, rehearsing for Parade Day, suddenly you come to understand that there has been some sort of mistake, and the very next moment your ‘over-the-years’ adapted mindset of “Aircraft Bachao” soch comes up, you wouldn’t want anyone, junior or senior, others to see you as someone who lost an aircraft, You are forced to defend your honor (even though PAF instructs to let go off the aircraft and save yourself), you try to the last moment, do or die....
> 
> How can i say any further ? Anyone who can say any further would be someone who has seen death from mm distance and that he knows the ‘nearing-to-death’ mindset.
> 
> Pure intentions of the Deceased Pilot, but he should have saved himself. A $60mn aircraft is worth less than the years of training he had. Take a look at adversary, they buy aircrafts worth $80mn+ and yet the outcome... Pilot matters, not the jet. They can come, Pilots are irreplaceable


Just remember had he been alive, the narrative would have been very different with the public. Had he been alive, the best part would have been that he would come home to his family and his service. His death adds more sorrow to the situation. The F-16 would have been criticised, along with an American conspiracy for spare parts, kill switch etc etc.....this is a public that is hard to convince due to his status in the air force. But this crash once again proves, that the best have been killed and at their own hand.

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## Amavous

Knuckles said:


> There is no replacement cause if the jet lands and is in service in Pakistan. There is a clause during the delivery and flight testing phase.



That's disappointing to know

I was under the impression that LM is authorized to sell a specific number of units to Pakistan so if any unit crash LM can sell replacement unit directly to Pakistan.

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> Both of these posts are based on a wild assumption that aircraft did stall.
> 
> The possibility is very bleak because F-16 does have anti stall devices such as multi spool compressor & turbines, inlet glide vanes etc.
> 
> Furthermore, F-16s FBW also prevents stall by not allowing pilot to lets say 'slow down vis a vis AoA'
> 
> In simpler words, the maneuver pictured is far from giving birth to a theory of possible engine stall.


It's a simple case of human error plane sound is ok but when he made maneuver he was already low and recovery took him down its sad tragedy but sometimes good driver also commit errors May rest him in peace.


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## NA71

airomerix said:


> Both of these posts are based on a wild assumption that aircraft did stall.
> 
> The possibility is very bleak because F-16 does have anti stall devices such as multi spool compressor & turbines, inlet glide vanes etc.
> 
> Furthermore, F-16s FBW also prevents stall by not allowing pilot to lets say 'slow down vis a vis AoA'
> 
> In simpler words, the maneuver pictured is far from giving birth to a theory of possible engine stall.



The inquiry board must be reading these posts along with their own investigation ...would give them lots of help....kudos to PDF members..... @airomerix @Windjammer

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Dude that's the jet catching fire and probably AB engaged as well,just before this ball of fire you can see a spark which is actually because of the jet hitting high voltage wires.


Many here are of the opinion that there were no high voltage wires in the area while @Socra has already pointed out that neither AB was engaged or airbrakes deployed....not sure if it can happen but to me it looked as if the throttle got stuck/jammed at max dry thrust or something.

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## NA71

Windjammer said:


> Many here are of the opinion that there were no high voltage wires in the area while @Socra has already pointed out that neither AB was engaged or airbrakes deployed....not sure if it can happen but to me it looked as if the throttle got stuck/jammed at max dry thrust or something.



if it is LT lines, the voltage is enough to cause significant damage..

*THE AVIATION WIRE STRIKE PROBLEM: THE DUTY TO WARN OF THIS AERIAL HAZARD*

https://scholar.smu.edu/cgi/viewcon...e.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1863&context=jalc

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/world/europe/f16-crash-parachute-electricity.html



@Windjammer @Knuckles @StormBreaker

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Many here are of the opinion that there were no high voltage wires in the area while @Socra has already pointed out that neither AB was engaged or airbrakes deployed....not sure if it can happen but to me it looked as if the throttle got stuck/jammed at max dry thrust or something.


We cannot determine that from the video. I pointed out that AB seemed *engaged *and that any measures the pilot could have taken to reduce his rate of decent and get nose authority on the airplane did not seem to be occurring.

We should also not be afraid to conclude it being pilot error. Which has a high likelihood based upon the irregularly of F-16 displays(and associated practice for pilots), altitude of the maneuvers and weather conditions. It is also possible it wasn’t his first practice of the day so fatigue and lack of familiarity with the area may also have led to it. The Margalla hills ground isn’t the best venue to hold these fly pasts in the first place - we have lost a mirage there in an earlier parade as well.

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## Windjammer

Socra said:


> We cannot determine that from the video. I pointed out that AB seemed *engaged *and that any measures the pilot could have taken to reduce his rate of decent and get nose authority on the airplane did not seem to be occurring.
> 
> We should also not be afraid to conclude it being pilot error. Which has a high likelihood based upon the irregularly of F-16 displays(and associated practice for pilots), altitude of the maneuvers and weather conditions. It is also possible it wasn’t his first practice of the day so fatigue and lack of familiarity with the area may also have led to it. The Margalla hills ground isn’t the best venue to hold these fly pasts in the first place - we have lost a mirage there in an earlier parade as well.


It looked as if he disengaged the AB at the top of the loop hence the black smoke....indeed all possibilities are there but what's mindboggling is his decent speed which was as much if no more than his vertical climb.

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Many here are of the opinion that there were no high voltage wires in the area while @Socra has already pointed out that neither AB was engaged or airbrakes deployed....not sure if it can happen but to me it looked as if the throttle got stuck/jammed at max dry thrust or something.


Small bangs can be clearly heard in one of the videos which are probably from the sparks being caused by broken lines plus you yourself posted a picture of wreckage of transformer and wires.In the same video you can see IESCO operators coming towards the site thus electricity was involved for sure.

As far as AB is concerned @Socra has himself corrected you boss.

Also there was no need of applying speed brakes.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Does anyone have video of the proper military funeral ceremony. It always fills me with awe of the status the shaheed has acquired.

I found one video with gun salute after burial.







NA71 said:


> Photo shot of AC just before touches the ground...no fire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Namaz- e Janaza at Muhsuf Base



What was the reason for the crash??


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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Small bangs can be clearly heard in one of the videos which are probably from the sparks being caused by broken lines plus you yourself posted a picture of wreckage of transformer and wires.In the same video you can see IESCO operators coming towards the site thus electricity was involved for sure.
> 
> As far as AB is concerned @Socra has himself corrected you boss.
> 
> Also there was no need of applying speed brakes.


Well I'm not trying to score any points and was only quoting what @Socra said elsewhere....as for the transformer, he may have hit the pylon after crashing to the ground.



Socra said:


> Absolute fake fantasy by utter liars.
> 
> he barely had seconds while coming down in the split S to judge that he was too low and try to get out of it. At no point do his airbrakes seem to be open(an option to dump speed and get a bit more nose authority), or his after burner engaged; which indicates he was unable to apply rectifying maneuvers leave alone have a 10 second conversation with ATc.


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## StormBreaker

Knuckles said:


> There is no replacement cause if the jet lands and is in service in Pakistan. There is a clause during the delivery and flight testing phase.
> 
> 
> Just remember had he been alive, the narrative would have been very different with the public. Had he been alive, the best part would have been that he would come home to his family and his service. His death adds more sorrow to the situation. The F-16 would have been criticised, along with an American conspiracy for spare parts, kill switch etc etc.....this is a public that is hard to convince due to his status in the air force. But this crash once again proves, that the best have been killed and at their own hand.


My dad always advices me that son sometimes you have to bear great losses, that is a PART of your life, when that happens, try to see the brighter side, the pros of those losses rather than being overshadowed by the cons and Thank to Almight for what you have.

In the past, but had he ejected, at least he would have been safe. F-16 is a monetary loss, and to the least, a capability or a capacity loss, but will these F-16s eventually in their current state be worthy enough for nearing battles with Rafales ? Certainly not that much. Block 3 is our own kid, something that is far better equipped in all aspects as compared to a standard Block-AM. Plus, we are soon getting F-16s and that is an undeniable truth certainly...



Windjammer said:


> Many here are of the opinion that there were no high voltage wires in the area while @Socra has already pointed out that neither AB was engaged or airbrakes deployed....not sure if it can happen but to me it looked as if the throttle got stuck/jammed at max dry thrust or something.


I had that in my mind as well, remember i did point out earlier as a possibility that some sort of *accidental mishandling* in the cockpit during the turn might have delayed it and hence the angle...



NA71 said:


> if it is LT lines, the voltage is enough to cause significant damage..
> 
> *THE AVIATION WIRE STRIKE PROBLEM: THE DUTY TO WARN OF THIS AERIAL HAZARD*
> 
> https://scholar.smu.edu/cgi/viewcon...e.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1863&context=jalc
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/world/europe/f16-crash-parachute-electricity.html
> 
> 
> 
> @Windjammer @Knuckles @StormBreaker


Like i said earlier, those are LT cable lines, HT cables require huge transformers, these are local “galli mohalla” Transformers aka “PMT” in local language... Plus, why would an HT cable be too low, like around 15ft ?

Can someone post a clear Split-S video of some other performance from any country but the aircraft should be F-16 ? @Trailer23 @Hodor

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## Windjammer

@Socra 
Is it possible for the throttle to get jammed at a certain position?


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## airomerix

Windjammer said:


> It looked as if he disengaged the AB at the top of the loop hence the black smoke....indeed all possibilities are there but what's mindboggling is his decent speed which was as much if no more than his vertical climb.



You always disengage the AB at the top and then continue downwards. It minimizes the distance required to jack up. That tactic was followed atleast.

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## StormBreaker

airomerix said:


> You always disengage the AB at the top and then continue downwards. It minimizes the distance required to jack up. That tactic was followed atleast.


Is it possible that the FCS or FBW had some problems ?

@Windjammer Buddy, we can’t rule out internal structural faults yet... There have been many incidents in the past due to problems with ailerons.


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## Windjammer

StormBreaker said:


> Is it possible that the FCS or FBW had some problems ?
> 
> @Windjammer Buddy, we can’t rule out internal structural faults yet... There have been many incidents in the past due to problems with ailerons.


It's possible although they say there are several computers to monitor and control certain aspects, however @Socra is the best guy for this info.

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## MastanKhan

airomerix said:


> Now sure what to address here. 100% rhetoric.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not some grave mistake of the 'leadership' again (where you are trying to go)
> 
> Clearly, you have no idea how Air Forces work.
> 
> OC of a squadron is someone who DOES NOT need oversight in flying.
> 
> OC 9 in PAF has a rich flying experience, often the Sherafghan CCS graduate, illustrious career as a squadron pilot, pair leader, section leader, flight commander and only then, he gets to command a squadron (IF he graduates from CCS that is)
> 
> Only the inquiry will tell why did he not abide by the rules or what made his aircraft come into this position.
> 
> 
> 
> The only reasonable part of your post. I agree with your bottom line.



Hi,

No more on " IGNORE LIST "---.


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## Amavous

PAF will have a much clearer picture then us civilians, He must be talking to ATC so if the theory of F-16 developing some snag over abpara is true then he must have said something to ATC.

There is also a possibility of F-16 sharing data & communicating with Erieye. I will even say that there is some possibility that PAF knows exactly what happened even before the completion of board of inquiry.

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## StormBreaker

@Socra @Windjammer @MastanKhan @Foxtrot Alpha @The Eagle In case the board of enquiry gets to the conclusion that there were problems with Flight control or physical problems such as aileron rod broke or stuck, this could be used as a card to justify another SLEP package and in turn negotiate for V upgrades.

We can’t rule out such possibilities and faults. Now you people can educate me if my theory is wrong with regards to F-16 specifically.


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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> @Socra @Windjammer @MastanKhan @Foxtrot Alpha @The Eagle In case the board of enquiry gets to the conclusion that there were problems with Flight control or physical problems such as aileron rod broke or stuck, this could be used as a card to justify another SLEP package and in turn negotiate for V upgrades.
> 
> We can’t rule out such possibilities and faults. Now you people can educate me if my theory is wrong with regards to F-16 specifically.



Hi,

To me it looks like the aircraft was in un-chartered area---. There was no reason for him to be in that place---.

Next time---the Paf needs to recce the area before pilot does any aerobatics in the area---.

They need to stay away from the mountains at all cost---. Plains and high rising terrain does not mix well.

Here at MARCH air reserve base---we have air shows---on north side are higher mountain---and a big big valley---during aerobatics the aircraft don't even get close to the mountains---they stay far away---.

The bottomline here is---the pilot should not have been where he ended up---.

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## StormBreaker

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> To me it looks like the aircraft was in chartered area---. There was no reason for him to be in that place---.
> 
> Next time---the Paf needs to recce the area before pilot does any aerobatics in the area---.
> 
> They need to stay away from the mountains at all cost---. Plains and high rising terrain does not mix well.
> 
> Here at MARCH air reserve base---we have air shows---on north side are higher mountain---and a big big valley---during aerobatics the aircraft don't even get close to the mountains---they stay far away---.
> 
> The bottomline here is---the pilot should not have been where he ended up---.


I was trying to find some old Split S videos of F-16 so watched Last year’s parade.
Solo turk was performing madly and beautifully. Then a shot comes where ACM Mujahid approaches PMIK, PM makes a silly face and asks something to ACM pointing out at the jet, and then ACM shakes head and sort of a “Yes Yes” Gesture.

To me
PMIK : “Aisi performance to karo tumlog bhi”
ACM : “G Agle saal InshaAllah”

Some soloturk was in the making in PAF, my stupid wild guess, call me silly here, i will say yes i am.


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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> I was trying to find some old Split S videos of F-16 so watched Last year’s parade.
> Solo turk was performing madly and beautifully. Then a shot comes where ACM Mujahid approaches PMIK, PM makes a silly face and asks something to ACM pointing out at the jet, and then ACM shakes head and sort of a “Yes Yes” Gesture.
> 
> To me
> PMIK : “Aisi performance to karo tumlog bhi”
> ACM : “G Agle saal InshaAllah”
> 
> Some soloturk was in the making in PAF, my stupid wild guess, call me silly here, i will say yes i am.



Hi,

If that was stated---the air chief should have stated----sir---aerobatics is high risk un-chartered territory---. We are fighter pilots not show pilots---.

And if such was the case that he was trying something new---then it was poorly planned.

Pilots who do aerobatics are a different type of pilots---. They are like the SHOW HORSES---and not the race horses---.

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## NA71

Now this is latest I found...my previous info goes wrong if you watch this video ..you see 11KV Power lines so...the plane indeed hit power lines ...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238085076057014273@StormBreaker

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## Windjammer

NA71 said:


> Now this is latest I found...my previous info goes wrong if you watch this video ..you see 11KV Power lines so...the plane indeed hit power lines ...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238085076057014273


Had the video but didn't want to post it.






*And for those claiming there are no high tension wires in the area.*

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## StormBreaker

NA71 said:


> Now this is latest I found...my previous info goes wrong if you watch this video ..you see 11KV Power lines so...the plane indeed hit power lines ...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238085076057014273@StormBreaker


Massive development, indeed the pilot managed to avoid hitting directly but the power lines and system made him unlucky....

Man


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## NA71

Windjammer said:


> Had the video but didn't want to post it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *And for those claiming there are no high tension wires in the area.*
> 
> View attachment 613169


Yes bro we were wrong....the plane did also struck the PMT while dragging on ground.
11 kv line ground clearance is about 50 to 180 fts ...depends on area

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## Amavous

Is this true that PAF is continuing the rehearsals?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238005409161465856

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## TheTallGuy

@Windjammer @NA71 @airomerix

it was revealed to me that there is a possible hydraulics failure on top of the loop he gave his life attempting to save people and F16...by in service ground crew..is it possible?

he said in his service it has happened quite often once F-16 at sarghoda just at time of landing happened...F-16 belly landed...the ground crew was so much in pain..for Loss of Sir Nauman...he still had a patch on his shoulder from Bholari Sher Afgan Trophy...i cant explain his emotions...he was in tears..truly Sir Nauman ruled the hearts..and was respected! modern day Sqn Ldr.F.S Hussain & Sqn Ldr.Sarfaraz Rafiqui.

which made me ask this question? does all F-16s have this problem? or its the age of PAF aircraft?

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## SABRE

PAF should open the parade with missing man formation flypast by 3 F-16s.

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## mingle

I remember when I was Kid a mirage was crash at 23 March parade day at shaker paryan.


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## Adam_Khan

StormBreaker said:


> Massive development, indeed the pilot managed to avoid hitting directly but the power lines and system made him unlucky....
> 
> Man



Hum Pakistani bi ajeeb makhlooq hain yar,khud mobile se video bana raha hai aur saat mai awazein dey raha hai Fire brigade ko call karo.
Such a shame.

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## Gripen9

mingle said:


> I remember when I was Kid a mirage was crash at 23 March parade day at shaker paryan.


1988. It was a bird strike, pilot avoided all built up area and died with the plane near westridge.
At that time parade was held in race course ground Rawalpindi not in the current location in Islamabad.

I used to watch the formations go by my balcony at PAF Chaklala, and then run over to the TV there was 5-10 sec delay. PAF used to sync to the second with the end of Zia ul Haq's speech. As soon as he ended with Pak Afwaj zindabad Pakistan Paindabad, the lead F-16 (CAS) would fly by. But he kept waiting for 2-3 minutes as they had to re-group. You could see a missing plane in the 4 box formation for one of the mirage formation.

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## Amavous

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237799631150551041

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## Raider 21

Gripen9 said:


> 1988. It was a bird strike, pilot avoided all built up area and died with the plane near westridge.
> At that time parade was held in race course ground Rawalpindi not in the current location in Islamabad.
> 
> I used to watch the formations go by my balcony at PAF Chaklala, and then run over to the TV there was 5-10 sec delay. PAF used to sync to the second with the end of Zia ul Haq's speech. As soon as he ended with Pak Afwaj zindabad Pakistan Paindabad, the lead F-16 (CAS) would fly by. But he kept waiting for 2-3 minutes as they had to re-group. You could see a missing plane in the 4 box formation for one of the mirage formation.


1987. I heard it was a sudden jamming of one of the stabilizers.

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## Gripen9

Knuckles said:


> 1987. I heard it was a sudden jamming of one of the stabilizers.


Yes 1987!


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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> Massive development, indeed the pilot managed to avoid hitting directly but the power lines and system made him unlucky....
> 
> Man



Hi,

You guys know me very well by now---. Here is what it looks like---.

It was un-chartered territory---high tension lines which are about 200 feet above the ground---.

The pilot had no reason and no excuse to be in that area---. He was showing off---high stepping---destroyed the nations property that he had no right of and destroyed nations investment that he had no right of---just to look cool and be praised---.

It was very obvious right from the begining---flat land and mountains don't mix very well with aerobatics and air show training---.

Now you guys can fight over it---.



Adam_Khan said:


> Hum Pakistani bi ajeeb makhlooq hain yar,khud mobile se video bana raha hai aur saat mai awazein dey raha hai Fire brigade ko call karo.
> Such a shame.



Hi,

Video is very important for evidence---so if he started it he should stay with making the video---.


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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You guys know me very well by now---. Here is what it looks like---.
> 
> It was un-chartered territory---high tension lines which are about 200 feet above the ground---.
> 
> The pilot had no reason and no excuse to be in that area---. He was showing off---high stepping---destroyed the nations property that he had no right of and destroyed nations investment that he had no right of---just to look cool and be praised---.
> 
> It was very obvious right from the begining---flat land and mountains don't mix very well with aerobatics and air show training---.
> 
> Now you guys can fight over it---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Video is very important for evidence---so if he started it he should stay with making the video---.


Hey,

Explain the other times when Viper demos went without crashes. His particular jet was lower than usual, but what about the other guys. Why haven't the last 6 demos crashed. Just curious.
Including Soloturk

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Hey,
> 
> Explain the other times when Viper demos went without crashes. His particular jet was lower than usual, but what about the other guys. Why haven't the last 6 demos crashed. Just curious.
> Including Soloturk



Hi,

That is absolutely silly---. Just because they dodged the bullet---did not mean it was not flawed---.

There comes a time when the string is stretched to far and it breaks somewhere---.

Allow me to say---this pilot was on a personal mission of show and strut---carrying on the image of 27th february and went too far---.

His aircraft hit the power lines and went down---that shows---that he was blinded by his own enthusiasm---.

Hitting power lines meant that he had not done his homework before the flight---.

The flight path was not routed out properly---the pilot possibly went out of his way deviated into a no fly zone---.

If he would have survived---he would have been court martialled---and would have had to live with that all his life---.

He intentionally stayed in the aircraft and delayed ejection till the last---if he ever ejected---because in a flick of a second he would have realized his blunder---


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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is absolutely silly---. Just because they dodged the bullet---did not mean it was not flawed---.
> 
> There comes a time when the string is stretched to far and it breaks somewhere---.
> 
> I keep giving you credit for your intellect---and you keep bringing up reason for a lower level of intellect---.
> 
> Allow me to say---this pilot was on a personal mission of show and strut---carrying on the image of 27th february and went too far---.
> 
> His aircraft hit the power lines and went down---that shows---that he was blinded by his own enthusiasm---.
> 
> Hitting power lines meant that he had not don his homework before the flight---.
> 
> The flight path was not routed out properly---the pilot possibly went out of his way deviated into a no fly zone---.
> 
> If he would have survived---he would have been court martialled---and would have had to live with that all his life---.
> 
> He intentionally stayed in the aircraft and delayed ejection till the last---if he ever ejected---because in a flick of a second he would have realized his blunder---sensed the consequences of future of family and decided to lay down his life so that the family could get the benefits---.
> 
> Things that we parents do for our children---. Someone prove me wrong---.


Wasn't being silly or anything. Just wanted further input.

You're wrong about the no fly zone and his personal showboating. He messed up a maneuver yes, but not along the lines the way you described. There are other variables where he was wrong and that led to the incident.

Had he survived and made out of it with an ejection or a few hundred feet so spare, high chances of suspended from fighters. 

Things we have to do for our elderly patients..

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## mingle

Knuckles said:


> 1987. I heard it was a sudden jamming of one of the stabilizers.


I remember it was Gen Zia era parade ground


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> It's possible although they say there are several computers to monitor and control certain aspects, however @Socra is the best guy for this info.


Highly unlikely - asked this of former USAF F-16 demo pilot today. All points to just a misjudged maneuver.

Ill reiterate the elephant in the room.

Soloturk does F-16 displays at low level in their dedicated jet for a multiple months assignment. So does the USAF viper demo team, Norwegian demo team, belgian demo team and so on.. all better tuned pilots to the airshow routine than ours.

We send out a good pilot but with about two weeks two prepare and even less actual practice time for the sequenced maneuvering and flight area.

Yet all those teams have had accidents(including fatal ones) over the years. Why are we so reluctant to assign mistakes to our demo pilot.

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## jay d

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is absolutely silly---. Just because they dodged the bullet---did not mean it was not flawed---.
> 
> There comes a time when the string is stretched to far and it breaks somewhere---.
> 
> Allow me to say---this pilot was on a personal mission of show and strut---carrying on the image of 27th february and went too far---.
> 
> His aircraft hit the power lines and went down---that shows---that he was blinded by his own enthusiasm---.
> 
> Hitting power lines meant that he had not done his homework before the flight---.
> 
> The flight path was not routed out properly---the pilot possibly went out of his way deviated into a no fly zone---.
> 
> If he would have survived---he would have been court martialled---and would have had to live with that all his life---.
> 
> He intentionally stayed in the aircraft and delayed ejection till the last---if he ever ejected---because in a flick of a second he would have realized his blunder---sensed the consequences of future of family and decided to lay down his life so that the family could get the benefits---.
> 
> Things that we parents do for our children---. Someone prove me wrong---.


What a preposterous account of what seems to be an unfortunate incident. I would stand up for this brave man. 

There is a weather factor that must not be discounted. He curtailed the loop due to the cloud cover. He had committed to that manuver. If he had a little more altitude, things would have been different. 

I am not a fighter pilot but I can see the pain through the eyes his little son, giving shoulder to his father's cascatte. That is enough for me to stand up for him!

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## adelphi

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is absolutely silly---. Just because they dodged the bullet---did not mean it was not flawed---.
> 
> There comes a time when the string is stretched to far and it breaks somewhere---.
> 
> Allow me to say---this pilot was on a personal mission of show and strut---carrying on the image of 27th february and went too far---.
> 
> His aircraft hit the power lines and went down---that shows---that he was blinded by his own enthusiasm---.
> 
> Hitting power lines meant that he had not done his homework before the flight---.
> 
> The flight path was not routed out properly---the pilot possibly went out of his way deviated into a no fly zone---.
> 
> If he would have survived---he would have been court martialled---and would have had to live with that all his life---.
> 
> He intentionally stayed in the aircraft and delayed ejection till the last---if he ever ejected---because in a flick of a second he would have realized his blunder---sensed the consequences of future of family and decided to lay down his life so that the family could get the benefits---.
> 
> Things that we parents do for our children---. Someone prove me wrong---.



I haven't seen a more pathetic post than this on pdf. Shame on you that you are judging a soul who is no more to defend himself. I'm sad at the loss of a Pilot but not for an aircraft. Accidents happen and these F-16s are not meant to be preserved in Museum. He was not on a personal mission rather doing his job where he was required to prepare for celebrations of his country's biggest day and that's an honour which you won't understand.
Building a theory of him being court martialed and not ejecting due to family benefits shows how cheap your mentality is.
You lost my respect old man

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## Raider 21

mingle said:


> I remember it was Gen Zia era parade ground


Exactly a month or so before when the solo Viper demo jet was lost in combat

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## blain2

Hope people understand that prior to conducting such aerobatics, the flight path, the entire routine, along with altitude etc. is run by the AHQ and approved. This is not a case of a pilot just getting up in the air and running a routine as a cowboy. To suggest such things is being factually incorrect. Every single thing to the nth amount of detail is documented and rehearsed. It is impossible for the pilot to come up with the aerobatics routine while up in the air. There are officials on the ground that observe and give feedback to pilots during such shows and the preparation. If the pilot is acting like a cowboy, there are people observing and serious repercussions await.

In this case it's quite possible the pilot became disoriented or visibility etc. was an issue. Nothing that people are stating, or that is in the press or in the open domain suggests "showing off" by the pilot. It is too premature to even state this was because of a pilot error.

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## MastanKhan

adelphi said:


> I haven't seen a more pathetic post than this on pdf. Shame on you that you are judging a soul who is no more to defend himself. I'm sad at the loss of a Pilot but not for an aircraft. Accidents happen and these F-16s are not meant to be preserved in Museum. He was not a a personal mission rather doing his job where he was required to prepare for celebrations of his country's biggest day and that's an honour which you won't understand.
> Building a theory of him being court martialed and not ejecting due to family benefits shows how cheap your mentality is.
> You lost my respect old man



Hi,
Never forget---two enemy aircraft do not make the PAF conquerers ( GOT ).

You kids do not have the ability to look at the faults in a critical manner---. Your emotions take charge of your common sense---.

This pilot hit the high tension power lines---.

Which clearly means that he was where he was not supposed to be---secondly---he did not know there were power lines---and the mountain area by itself next to open valley is a big no no for an aerobatic demo training flight.

If visibility issues were present---the flight should have been cancelled---.

But definitely this was a flight of an over zealous and over eager pilot basking in the glory of the past incidents---.

SUB THEEK HAI---KOI PARWAH NAHIN



jay d said:


> What a preposterous account of what seems to be an unfortunate incident. I would stand up for this brave man.
> 
> There is a weather factor that must not be discounted. He curtailed the loop due to the cloud cover. He had committed to that manuver. If he had a little more altitude, things would have been different.
> 
> I am not a fighter pilot but I can see the pain through the eyes his little son, giving shoulder to his father's cascatte. That is enough for me to stand up for him!



Hi,

Obviously the weather issue was there---the cloud cover was there---it just did not happen within mere second or a blink of an eye---and yet the pilot did not restrain from continuing the flight and no one from the ground pulled him back.

About his son---with his last act the father made sure the family would be well taken care of---.

If the pilot had ejected in a timely manner he could have been court-martialed for being at fault---.

We parents end up doing strange things for our children---.

When I was single I never thought I would do things for my children that I would do now---.


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## Rafi

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You kids do not have the ability to look at the faults in a critical manner---.
> 
> This pilot hit the high tension power lines---.
> 
> Which clearly means that he was where he was not supposed to be---secondly---he did not know know there were power lines---and the mountain area by itself next to open valley is a big no no for an aerobatic demo training flight.
> 
> If visibility issues were present---the flight should have been cancelled---.
> 
> But definitely this was a flight of an over zealous and over eager pilot basking in the glory of the past incidents---.



You are a disgrace, I pity you and your old age bitterness. Your pathetic interludes confirms to me that your girlfriend was stolen by an Air Force pilot.

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## airmarshal

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> i beg to disagree Sir....F16A has three reported incidents of Stagnation stall / Compressor stall following high angle of attack and low speed....the aircraft of BAF was being pushed to the limit when encountered Compressor stall.....there can be many other factors at play here.....



So with MLU, I heard engine was also enhanced. Wouldnt that have fixed the issue?

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## MastanKhan

Rafi said:


> You are a disgrace, I pity you and your old age bitterness. Your pathetic interludes confirms to me that your girlfriend was stolen by an Air Force pilot.



Hi,

No sir---I am not---but you sir are a shameless person---. 

I have only put forward an analysis of what happened from known information---.

Hitting of the high tension power lines made things easy to assess---.


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## 74H1R

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No sir---I am not---but you sir are a shameless person---.
> 
> I have only put forward an analysis of what happened from known information---.
> 
> Hitting of the high tension power lines made things easy to assess---.



But where he hit power lines? Are you referring that CCTV footage? I didn't get this.


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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> @Socra @Windjammer @MastanKhan @Foxtrot Alpha @The Eagle In case the board of enquiry gets to the conclusion that there were problems with Flight control or physical problems such as aileron rod broke or stuck, this could be used as a card to justify another SLEP package and in turn negotiate for V upgrades.
> 
> We can’t rule out such possibilities and faults. Now you people can educate me if my theory is wrong with regards to F-16 specifically.



Hi,

There was nothing wrong with the aircraft---.

The pilot got carried away---he ended up in a wrong area---he had no situational awareness of the hurdles in that area---like the high tension power lines---flying in from a valley into mountains---.

One bad decision after the other---over head clouds---visibility not that great---not sure of hurdles on the ground---open valleys and mountains make a very bad combination for an aerobatic training flight---.

Kobe Bryant accident---.



NA71 said:


> Now this is latest I found...my previous info goes wrong if you watch this video ..you see 11KV Power lines so...the plane indeed hit power lines ...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238085076057014273@StormBreaker



Here is the video about the HT wires.



74H1R said:


> But where he hit power lines? Are you referring that CCTV footage? I didn't get this.



Check out the video in the above Ahmad Salman's post---


----------



## jay d

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> Never forget---two enemy aircraft do not make the PAF conquerers ( GOT ).
> 
> You kids do not have the ability to look at the faults in a critical manner---. Your emotions take charge of your common sense---.
> 
> This pilot hit the high tension power lines---.
> 
> Which clearly means that he was where he was not supposed to be---secondly---he did not know there were power lines---and the mountain area by itself next to open valley is a big no no for an aerobatic demo training flight.
> 
> If visibility issues were present---the flight should have been cancelled---.
> 
> But definitely this was a flight of an over zealous and over eager pilot basking in the glory of the past incidents---.
> 
> SUB THEEK HAI---KOI PARWAH NAHIN
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Obviously the weather issue was there---the cloud cover was there---it just did not happen within mere second or a blink of an eye---and yet the pilot did not restrain from continuing the flight and no one from the ground pulled him back.
> 
> About his son---with his last act the father made sure the family would be well taken care of---.
> 
> If the pilot had ejected in a timely manner he could have been court-martialed for being at fault---.
> 
> We parents end up doing strange things for our children---.
> 
> When I was single I never thought I would do things for my children that I would do now---.





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> Never forget---two enemy aircraft do not make the PAF conquerers ( GOT ).
> 
> You kids do not have the ability to look at the faults in a critical manner---. Your emotions take charge of your common sense---.
> 
> This pilot hit the high tension power lines---.
> 
> Which clearly means that he was where he was not supposed to be---secondly---he did not know there were power lines---and the mountain area by itself next to open valley is a big no no for an aerobatic demo training flight.
> 
> If visibility issues were present---the flight should have been cancelled---.
> 
> But definitely this was a flight of an over zealous and over eager pilot basking in the glory of the past incidents---.
> 
> SUB THEEK HAI---KOI PARWAH NAHIN
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Obviously the weather issue was there---the cloud cover was there---it just did not happen within mere second or a blink of an eye---and yet the pilot did not restrain from continuing the flight and no one from the ground pulled him back.
> 
> About his son---with his last act the father made sure the family would be well taken care of---.
> 
> If the pilot had ejected in a timely manner he could have been court-martialed for being at fault---.
> 
> We parents end up doing strange things for our children---.
> 
> When I was single I never thought I would do things for my children that I would do now---.





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> Never forget---two enemy aircraft do not make the PAF conquerers ( GOT ).
> 
> You kids do not have the ability to look at the faults in a critical manner---. Your emotions take charge of your common sense---.
> 
> This pilot hit the high tension power lines---.
> 
> Which clearly means that he was where he was not supposed to be---secondly---he did not know there were power lines---and the mountain area by itself next to open valley is a big no no for an aerobatic demo training flight.
> 
> If visibility issues were present---the flight should have been cancelled---.
> 
> But definitely this was a flight of an over zealous and over eager pilot basking in the glory of the past incidents---.
> 
> SUB THEEK HAI---KOI PARWAH NAHIN
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Obviously the weather issue was there---the cloud cover was there---it just did not happen within mere second or a blink of an eye---and yet the pilot did not restrain from continuing the flight and no one from the ground pulled him back.
> 
> About his son---with his last act the father made sure the family would be well taken care of---.
> 
> If the pilot had ejected in a timely manner he could have been court-martialed for being at fault---.
> 
> We parents end up doing strange things for our children---.
> 
> When I was single I never thought I would do things for my children that I would do now---.



You are an insane, pedantic, delinquent!!! I am aggrieved and i would leave it at that.

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## MastanKhan

jay d said:


> You are an insane, pedantic, delinquent!!! I am aggrieved and i would leave it at that.



Hi,

Maybe in 20 years I might get there---but right now---those issues are not there---.

But with such a Vitriol post---you might start to think thank maybe it is you who might be possessing these fine qualities---


----------



## Thorough Pro

This is the most insensitive and insensible post. DO NOT DISGRACE your martyrs by posting such vids. Regardless of who the pilot is, they have families and they have internet. Please delete this post.



salman-1 said:


> . That's the link of that video.

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## adelphi

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You kids do not have the ability to look at the faults in a critical manner---.
> 
> This pilot hit the high tension power lines---.
> 
> Which clearly means that he was where he was not supposed to be---secondly---he did not know know there were power lines---and the mountain area by itself next to open valley is a big no no for an aerobatic demo training flight.
> 
> If visibility issues were present---the flight should have been cancelled---.
> 
> But definitely this was a flight of an over zealous and over eager pilot basking in the glory of the past incidents---



You clearly don't have the ability to understand the meanings of values or morals. This is not the first crash for PAF and sadly it will not be last either but scoring brownie points on pre-assumed pilot actions in a tragic accident is shameful and you are old enough to understand it. You or anyone else is in no position to judge his actions during that fateful moment.
People need to understand that they are not commercial airlines pilots where safety is priority. They are warriors trained to take risk, put their lives on line & shoot to kill. These aerobatics are not without purpose, they are intended to demonstrate capabilities to foes, win confidence of masses that their airforce is capable of defending them and inspire future generations. These pilots are trained for these risky manoeuvres and it's part of their job so calling it a show off is pathetic. Don't cry on a lost F-16, Pakistan is worth more than that.

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## MastanKhan

adelphi said:


> You clearly don't have the ability to understand the meanings of values or morals. This is not the first crash for PAF and sadly it will not be last either but scoring brownie points on pre-assumed pilots actions in a tragic accident is shameful and you are old enough to understand it. You or anyone else is in no position to judge his actions during that fateful moment.
> People need to understand that they are not commercial airlines pilots where safety is priority. They are warriors trained to take risk, put their lives on line & kill to shoot. These aerobatics are not without purpose, they are intended to demonstrate capabilities to foes, win confidence of masses that their airforce is capable of defending them and inspire future generations. These pilots are trained for these risky manoeuvres and it's part of their job so calling it a show off is pathetic. Don't cry on a lost F-16, Pakistan is worth more than that.



Hi,

This is a defence forum---war and death and destruction forum ---machines that kill people one at a time or in hundreds and thousand---so morality is not being discussed over here---.

What is discussed is straight forward ruthless brutal and honest assessment without prejudice---.

You would need to look elsewhere for morality---.


----------



## airomerix

TheTallGuy said:


> @Windjammer @NA71 @airomerix
> 
> it was revealed to me that there is a possible hydraulics failure on top of the loop he gave his life attempting to save people and F16...by in service ground crew..is it possible?
> 
> he said in his service it has happened quite often once F-16 at sarghoda just at time of landing happened...F-16 belly landed...the ground crew was so much in pain..for Loss of Sir Nauman...he still had a patch on his shoulder from Bholari Sher Afgan Trophy...i cant explain his emotions...he was in tears..truly Sir Nauman ruled the hearts..and was respected! modern day Sqn Ldr.F.S Hussain & Sqn Ldr.Sarfaraz Rafiqui.
> 
> which made me ask this question? does all F-16s have this problem? or its the age of PAF aircraft?



I don't know if it is true or not. There are loads of rumors going around in PAF circles too. Only inquiry will tell. 

However, the hydraulic failure theory makes sense because, in an event of hydraulic loss of power, the rudder and ailerons stop functioning, the avionics/onboard system fails, the EPU (emergency power unit) tries to regain the electrical and hydraulic power but this doesn't happen instantaneously. There is always a gap of a few seconds. 

Since F-16 possesses RSS (relaxed static stability) to allow high maneuverability, it is inherently unstable and requires FBW to correct itself. This means any such hydraulic failure will make it fall down like a brick if it fails to re-establish the link I talked about earlier.

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## adelphi

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is a defence forum---war and death and destruction forum ---machines that kill people one at a time or in hundreds and thousand---so morality is not being discussed over here---.
> 
> What is discussed is straight forward ruthless brutal and honest assessment without prejudice---.
> 
> You would need to look elsewhere for morality---.



We are discussing a soldier's death here, who was also a father and husband. Take your ruthless brutal and honest assessment to nearest US soldiers cemetery in your locality, no one needs your pearls of wisdom here.

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## jay d

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Maybe in 20 years I might get there---but right now---those issues are not there---.
> 
> But with such a Vitriol post---you might start to think thank maybe it is you who might be possessing these fine qualities---



Don't worry about my fine qualities! They are honed by much superior values. I would continue to preserve the sanctity of this brave pilot's sacrifice. He is not dead and you probably don't know that.

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## Thorough Pro

Only in my Pakistan, even a sad event like this, won't stop people from crafting conspiracy theories and exercise restraint from judging and prosecuting the pilot and the PAF without even knowing what happened.

Flying is inherently risky, and this is how he was destined to leave this world. Maybe he made a judgement error, maybe something went wrong with the plane yet he tried his best to save it. No one except ALLAH knows what happened.

What's important for us is that he was a brave and accomplished pilot and served the nation and gave his life doing what he loved doing. May ALLAH rest his soul in peace, forgive his shortcomings, raise his stature and give courage to his family.

Love and respect to the brave son of the motherland.

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## MastanKhan

adelphi said:


> We are discussing a soldier's death here, who was also a father and husband. Take your ruthless brutal and honest assessment to nearest US soldiers cemetery in your locality, no one needs your pearls of wisdom here.



Hi,

You have only been here 5 months barely---and I have been here for around 15 yrs plus---more than 1/2 your age---.



jay d said:


> Don't worry about my fine qualities! They are honed by much superior values. I would continue to preserve the sanctity of this brave pilot's sacrifice. He is not dead and you probably don't know that.



Hi,

The pilot did not scarifice---he hit high tension electric wires in a place where he was not supposed to be---.

There was no sanctity in his actions---but rather a failure of planning ahead of time and sticking to the routine and to a known area rather than ending up in mountainous area with high tension wires---.

This euphoria of Feb 27th has gone on for too long---.

It needs to come to a stop---and Allah has done it so---.


----------



## adelphi

MastanKhan said:


> He intentionally stayed in the aircraft and delayed ejection till the last---if he ever ejected---because in a flick of a second he would have realized his blunder---sensed the consequences of future of family and *decided to lay down his life so that the family could get the benefits*---.



I'm better off than posting such comment after being 15 yrs plus on pdf. 
What a waste

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## GriffinsRule

salman-1 said:


> That's the link of that video.



Reported this post for removal. Have some decency and stop sharing pictures and videos of deceased bodies of our martyred pilots and soldiers. In fact this should become a part of the forum rule .

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## jay d

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You have only been here 5 months barely---and I have been here for around 15 yrs plus---more than 1/2 your age---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The pilot did not scarifice---he hit high tension electric wires in a place where he was not supposed to be---.
> 
> There was no sanctity in his actions---but rather a failure of planning ahead of time and sticking to the routine and to a known area rather than ending up in mountainous area with high tension wires---.
> 
> This euphoria of Feb 27th has gone on for too long---.
> 
> It needs to come to a stop---and Allah has done it so---.



Well you are entitled to have your flawed views. We d continue to refute them. Nothing doing to the rest of us here.

Te Chall hunn nikull...

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## Jammer

@MastanKhan . I made it a point to ignore your stupid, ridiculous, delusional and insane comments on this board. However, today you are forcing my hand. You need to SHUT THE F@$K UP! You stupid pathetic little man, you have "No", I repeat "No" idea what happened. Investigations are in process, even trained professionals who have flown most of their lives are keeping quite and more importantly being respectful. Noman was an excellent pilot and a better human being than you can ever aspire to be. when you spout out insane bull sh%t without any experience or knowledge you are disrespectful to the fallen, his friends and family and come across as a complete *** hat! Behave your self and in time you will continue to know nothing.

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## Raider 21

Jammer said:


> @MastanKhan . I made it a point to ignore your stupid, ridiculous, delusional and insane comments on this board. However, today you are forcing my hand. You need to SHUT THE F@$K UP! You stupid pathetic little man, you have "No", I repeat "No" idea what happened. Investigations are in process, even trained professionals who have flown most of their lives are keeping quite and more importantly being respectful. Noman was an excellent pilot and a better human being than you can ever aspire to be. when you spout out insane bull sh%t without any experience or knowledge you are disrespectful to the fallen, his friends and family and come across as a complete *** hat! Behave your self and in time you will continue to know nothing.


I second to that. Never thought he'd stoop down that low to say something like that. Take this as an example my friend, that being older or elder does not mean you are always right. He gives out the impression of the an Arnab Goswami or similar

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## Humble Analyst

Reichmarshal said:


> For all the wrist slitters why doesent the PAF stop flying altogether or better yet why don't me disband PAF..end of story !
> 
> The risk is part of the job n it happens to the best all around the world. No where do u see or hear them stop flying or flying lesser a.c.


Germany has banned air shows

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## mingle

This crash is smiliar to El toro F18 crash 1988 same maneuver and same result.RIP


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## Raider 21

mingle said:


> This crash is smiliar to El toro F18 crash 1988 same maneuver and same result.RIP


The pilot in this video made it alive. He died decades later. Colonel Jerry Caddick, US Marine Corps.

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## Amaa'n

guys this is not gospel and yes I can be wrong, feel free to ask any question and or add to my argument)

Okay so this image above is basically showing the relation B/W lift characteristics and Air flow at various angles but his is very simple but the biggest point to be taken after making such arguments is that A fighter is built to be unstable and hence the maneuverability of the f-16 Now if people are suggesting that it was a stall then I would like to make Assertions to support my argument.

some of this is in Regards to the F-16 and some is *general knowledge* FOR THE MEMBERS

If we take a look at the the video one can clearly see that the air craft is climbing ( I have some speculation about the climb it looked a little slow) If the F-16 was in an aerodynamic stall (loosing most of its lift) we would note that the aircraft would not be climbing but it would be at a high angle of attack and the air speed would not be as such in the videos.

Another Point to be noted that if it was in-fact a stall the F-16 would not have been able to pull such a high g turn in relations to its stall speed and at those altitudes the F-16s glide ratio would have not helped a bunch and Because of the small and some what stubby wings of the F-16 it will most likely fall like a rock with a drag chute and that is of course without any engine power (Because that is how fighters fly).

The F-16 wouldn't have been able to pull those aggressive G and into the Dive/Loop because it would not have sufficient air speed it would have yawed to either side at high AOA ( The F-16 was doing a half Split S) so we know from the videos that it was already inverted and ready to commence the half loop (In case of Aero dynamic stall the pilot would have never executed the half loop instead he would have let go of the controls at let the air craft correct it self or engaged that big after burner to give it that 1:1 thrust (fly it like a stone with a rocket) or the Pilot would have tried to reduce angle of attack and take it from there.


Now Here comes the Compressor stall theory (which in my opinion did not happen) but if this was In-fact a compressor stall than here is what would have most likely happened, the F-16 would have most likely continued the some the climb and not inverted the air craft and than would have taken it from there (compressors stalls are easy to fix and P&W engine is very very robust and the intakes air flow has been designed in such a way that it eliminates un even air flow.

If you say the the compressor stall happened during the transition from Inverted - Dive even than that does not mean you loose power immediately in some cases you actually dont even lose power and with sufficient altitude the air craft would have exited any loop with ease and let Gravity do its work.

If it was a compressor stall than fighter pilots are trained to climb as high as possible to sufficient efforts in safe manner to restart the Engine if it has lost power completely and if not than get ready to do some pre ejection checks Feet off the rudder pedals push the cheeks inside to the seat rest the neck and head and pull the handle with both hands and arms firm to the sides (hope for the best).

That puff of Smoke is most probably some unburned fuel.

That picture of the F-16 where it is Labeled as stall blow out is most probably some of the debris entering the engine with the mixture of the electric discharge, wire snapping and the high speed impact of aft belly first on to the ground (BUT I COULD BE WRONG).

The members who are posting video and images of the shaheed pilots is from Feb 7 FT-7 crash and is clearly evident by the location, terrain, ejection seat mk10 and the uniform of the deceased Pilots.

Dear members as I have been unjustly banned from couple of forums I apologize for sharing my POV in this thread.

The biggest issue for me now is the delay in the transition from the dive to exiting the loop

Nothing but Respect for our Dear Fighting Falcon who knows what could be the cause


@Foxtrot Alpha thanks for sharing on the crash thread.

sincerely,

Mirage Battle Commander

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## Enigma SIG

Jammer said:


> @MastanKhan . I made it a point to ignore your stupid, ridiculous, delusional and insane comments on this board. However, today you are forcing my hand. You need to SHUT THE F@$K UP! You stupid pathetic little man, you have "No", I repeat "No" idea what happened. Investigations are in process, even trained professionals who have flown most of their lives are keeping quite and more importantly being respectful. Noman was an excellent pilot and a better human being than you can ever aspire to be. when you spout out insane bull sh%t without any experience or knowledge you are disrespectful to the fallen, his friends and family and come across as a complete *** hat! Behave your self and in time you will continue to know nothing.


So many pages of respect and it takes one person so full of himself to ruin it for everyone.

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## Yaseen1

i think fighter jets like f16 are made for war and not for airshow,russian jets like su30 are good for airshows as they have high maneuverability using TVC due to double engine whereas f16 is single engine agile jet use for better air to air attack


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## NA71

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is a defence forum---war and death and destruction forum ---machines that kill people one at a time or in hundreds and thousand---so morality is not being discussed over here---.
> 
> What is discussed is straight forward ruthless brutal and honest assessment without prejudice---.
> 
> You would need to look elsewhere for morality---.


 Sir leave for some other times...we all are very sad for the loss of our brother with emotions running high....my request.

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## Talon

@MastanKhan is a disgrace to this forum, having no respect for the Shaheed and @StormBreaker is nothing but a conspiracist who has no experience or knowledge about how flying works.

You may hate me for the statement...I simply do not care..!



NA71 said:


> Sir leave for some other times...we all are very sad for the loss of our brother with emotions running high....my request.


Its his job to spit venom against PAF he cant help himself.

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## iLION12345_1

Yaseen1 said:


> i think fighter jets like f16 are made for war and not for airshow,russian jets like su30 are good for airshows as they have high maneuverability using TVC due to double engine whereas f16 is single engine agile jet use for better air to air attack


Another incredibly dumb comment. If you don’t know anything about a topic. Please don’t comment on it, this also applies to MastanKhan. (Ever seen SoloTurk? Guess what the guy flies.)
Please keep your absolutely moronic opinions and armchair expertise to yourself. Freedom of speech does not mean you start yapping about everything however you want.

The cause of the crash and all the things related to it are for the Air Force to determine. Questioning the pilots actions or making up something yourself doesn’t prove anything. Even if the pilot had deliberately crashed the plane (not implying he did. Just making a point) you still would have no right to comment on it this way because he has the hundreds of hours of flying experience and he spent his life serving his country. Not you. Aircrafts fly, they crash. Happens all over the world. Treating it like the entire Air Force has failed to accomplish anything is also pretty dumb.
Secondly; I’ve seen the “It’s a Defence forum” argument too much now. What is that supposed to mean? When you say that and then give your completely illogical and nonsensical opinions, your just ruin the point of your own argument. You’re making a Defence forum look like a fan page. Leave the discussions to the people who actually know what they’re saying.

it’s not even about emotions running high or having a god complex about the armed forces. Most of the people here know that they’re not perfect and do make mistakes, even better armed forces make the same mistakes. It’s just that people try to prove their points and don’t like to admit when they’re wrong. 
Try not to feel too important when you criticize the armed forces, because again, even if they make mistakes. They have the experience and they put in the work while you sat at home on a bed and criticized them.

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## Trango Towers

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There was nothing wrong with the aircraft---.
> 
> The pilot got carried away---he ended up in a wrong area---he had no situational awareness of the hurdles in that area---like the high tension power lines---flying in from a valley into mountains---.
> 
> One bad decision after the other---over head clouds---visibility not that great---not sure of hurdles on the ground---open valleys and mountains make a very bad combination for an aerobatic training flight---.
> 
> Kobe Bryant accident---.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the video about the HT wires.
> 
> 
> 
> Check out the video in the above Ahmad Salman's post---


One has to ignore a rabbid barking dog who's only achievement is a american passport and Budweiser

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## Talon

*@The Eagle cant we close this thread for a while? This discussion has gone far too long now.*

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## StormBreaker

Socra said:


> Highly unlikely - asked this of former USAF F-16 demo pilot today. All points to just a misjudged maneuver.
> 
> Ill reiterate the elephant in the room.
> 
> Soloturk does F-16 displays at low level in their dedicated jet for a multiple months assignment. So does the USAF viper demo team, Norwegian demo team, belgian demo team and so on.. all better tuned pilots to the airshow routine than ours.
> 
> We send out a good pilot but with about two weeks two prepare and even less actual practice time for the sequenced maneuvering and flight area.
> 
> Yet all those teams have had accidents(including fatal ones) over the years. Why are we so reluctant to assign mistakes to our demo pilot.


So i was sort of correctly suggesting PAF’s intentions to perform similarly to Soloturk’s low altitude, aggresive demo ? thanks for bringing in Viper Demo team as well.



Hodor said:


> @MastanKhan is a disgrace to this forum, having no respect for the Shaheed and @StormBreaker is nothing but a conspiracist who has no experience or knowledge about how flying works.
> 
> You may hate me for the statement...I simply do not care..!
> 
> 
> Its his job to spit venom against PAF he cant help himself.


You can save your comments... Me a ‘Conspiracist’ ? Wow...
All i have done here is present some possibilities and nothing more

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## NA71

thread needs closure for some period of time....heated too much now.

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## StormBreaker

NA71 said:


> thread needs closure for some period of time....heated too much now.


Indeed, no point in continuing...
And Mods, kindly don’t block me from this thread, i am unwatching it my self...


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## SQ8

NA71 said:


> thread needs closure for some period of time....too much heat now.


Why?
It should expose who really knows what they are talking about and who is basically ranting out due to their own needs for attention via personal failures in life.

It shows who is looking at the event as a tragedy due to a set of bad circumstances leading to the loss of a valuable life, or who is ranting and I dare say gloating over the death of a fine officer and commander, a son, a father, a brother and a national asset.

Let all come out and be in the open.

Time to see the nakedness of personal insecurities of those who truly have no stake in this.. 

The wing commander’s wife.. and kids.. his squadron mates.. they have stakes.

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## SIPRA



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## Rafi

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You have only been here 5 months barely---and I have been here for around 15 yrs plus---more than 1/2 your age---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The pilot did not scarifice---he hit high tension electric wires in a place where he was not supposed to be---.
> 
> There was no sanctity in his actions---but rather a failure of planning ahead of time and sticking to the routine and to a known area rather than ending up in mountainous area with high tension wires---.
> 
> This euphoria of Feb 27th has gone on for too long---.
> 
> It needs to come to a stop---and Allah has done it so---.



You are a heartless old goat, stop denigrating a person, that just gave his life for his country, imagine a used car salesman, criticising a hero. If you lived 3 life times, you would not be worth as much as him.

Now begone, vile thing.

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## Genghis khan1

Looking at the video, right before He could have and should have ejected.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You have only been here 5 months barely---and I have been here for around 15 yrs plus---more than 1/2 your age---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The pilot did not scarifice---he hit high tension electric wires in a place where he was not supposed to be---.
> 
> There was no sanctity in his actions---but rather a failure of planning ahead of time and sticking to the routine and to a known area rather than ending up in mountainous area with high tension wires---.
> 
> This euphoria of Feb 27th has gone on for too long---.
> 
> It needs to come to a stop---and Allah has done it so---.


I would say, it was an accident. It’s could be an Operator fault or the machine fault, could be both. Only investigation will clear things up, public might never know the actual finding since we honor our fallen. He made the loop and struck the ground within seconds. Claims that.. he saved Blue area or population...this or that, I don’t buy them.


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## AMRAAM

I've been reading and following this thread silently. 

Even the 2 days have passed, the heart still mourns on this tragedy. A great loss indeed, a great W/C.

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## Kaleem.61

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is a defence forum---war and death and destruction forum ---machines that kill people one at a time or in hundreds and thousand---so morality is not being discussed over here---.
> 
> What is discussed is straight forward ruthless brutal and honest assessment without prejudice---.
> 
> You would need to look elsewhere for morality---.



You are such a p**r minded person using defense and destruction at the same time... *** ** ** ****

Your highness is that morality does not matter ... Yuck..

After morality what left...?????
You need to sleep for 8 hour. If it works fine else go to psychiatrist.


----------



## NA71

Socra said:


> Why?
> It should expose who really knows what they are talking about and who is basically ranting out due to their own needs for attention via personal failures in life.
> 
> It shows who is looking at the event as a tragedy due to a set of bad circumstances leading to the loss of a valuable life, or who is ranting and I dare say gloating over the death of a fine officer and commander, a son, a father, a brother and a national asset.
> 
> Let all come out and be in the open.
> 
> Time to see the nakedness of personal insecurities of those who truly have no stake in this..
> 
> The wing commander’s wife.. and kids.. his squadron mates.. they have stakes.



Baat tu sach hy...


----------



## Viper27

Genghis khan1 said:


> Looking at the video, right before He could have and should have ejected.
> 
> I would say, it was an accident. It’s could be an Operator fault or the machine fault, could be both. Only investigation will clear things up, public might never know the actual finding since we honor our fallen. He made the loop and struck the ground within seconds. Claims that.. he saved Blue area or population...this or that, I don’t buy them.



You don't have to buy anything before the inquiry is complete. However, he did have the opportunity to eject and had he done so the plane would have likely fallen on civilian property which was only meters away from the crash site.


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## baqai

Mastaan uncle at times reminds me of typical phoophoo who needs to find something wrong in everything and is there to create panga in every event

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## The Eagle

Hodor said:


> *@The Eagle cant we close this thread for a while? This discussion has gone far too long now.*



I will however let the Thread continue while foul mouths & rants are kicked out forever. Either it was Noman or the weather or any technical fault etc; those who comes on board to disrespect and call it show shaa; shall know in advance that you will be facing the most merciless of me.

Enough of these smelly rants. It proves the approach & capability of one that think like it was some kind of a street show to impress a GF or for some cheers. What a shame for so-called expertise & keep claiming it to be a critical analysis. That also speaks volume of the one's civility, decency and manners.

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## salarsikander

HRK said:


> these words were the part of a video of a PAF demo ..... I have no better words to describe the today's incident
> View attachment 612889


I would outright say this when describing the fallen ones in the line of duty one must take extreme precautions of the words described !!!

Though I am not an expert on English but what I find highly offensive is the term " *temerity " 

TEMERITY, AUDACITY, HARDIHOOD, EFFRONTERY, NERVE, CHEEK, GALL, CHUTZPAH mean conspicuous or flagrant boldness. TEMERITY suggests boldness arising from rashness and contempt of danger. had the temerity to refuse AUDACITY implies a disregard of restraints commonly imposed by convention or prudence. an entrepreneur with audacity and vision HARDIHOOD suggests firmness in daring and defiance. admired for her hardihood EFFRONTERY implies shameless, insolent disregard of propriety or courtesy. *

Hi,

If I am not wrong, It was Sdn 9 that received the first f-16s in 83. May Allah bless the departed soul who left has left us,

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## airomerix

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is absolutely silly---. Just because they dodged the bullet---did not mean it was not flawed---.
> 
> There comes a time when the string is stretched to far and it breaks somewhere---.
> 
> Allow me to say---this pilot was on a personal mission of show and strut---carrying on the image of 27th february and went too far---.
> 
> His aircraft hit the power lines and went down---that shows---that he was blinded by his own enthusiasm---.
> 
> Hitting power lines meant that he had not done his homework before the flight---.
> 
> The flight path was not routed out properly---the pilot possibly went out of his way deviated into a no fly zone---.
> 
> If he would have survived---he would have been court martialled---and would have had to live with that all his life---.
> 
> He intentionally stayed in the aircraft and delayed ejection till the last---if he ever ejected---because in a flick of a second he would have realized his blunder---



It is wise of you to edit your comment and remove that 'family benefits' accusation. 

I would have roasted you till either one of us was banned from here. And It would have been you most likely.



Hodor said:


> *@The Eagle cant we close this thread for a while? This discussion has gone far too long now.*



I second this.

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## Maarkhoor

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is absolutely silly---. Just because they dodged the bullet---did not mean it was not flawed---.
> 
> There comes a time when the string is stretched to far and it breaks somewhere---.
> 
> Allow me to say---this pilot was on a personal mission of show and strut---carrying on the image of 27th february and went too far---.
> 
> His aircraft hit the power lines and went down---that shows---that he was blinded by his own enthusiasm---.
> 
> Hitting power lines meant that he had not done his homework before the flight---.
> 
> The flight path was not routed out properly---the pilot possibly went out of his way deviated into a no fly zone---.
> 
> If he would have survived---he would have been court martialled---and would have had to live with that all his life---.
> 
> He intentionally stayed in the aircraft and delayed ejection till the last---if he ever ejected---because in a flick of a second he would have realized his blunder---


I advised you before eat figs...you stopped eating and now you have weird / absurd delusions agains while sitting on hot seat....

Investigation still on....who told you he hit the electric lines?

You have proof....?


----------



## Eagle_Nest

Do alam sy krti hy begana dilko
Ajb chez hy lazt e ashnai
Shahadt hy mtlob o mqsood o momin
Na mal e ghnemt na kishwr kushai!

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238410538549477376


----------



## NA71

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238410538549477376



Religious family.... Mualana Tariq Jameel was also present in Namaz e Janaza..


----------



## blain2

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is a defence forum---war and death and destruction forum ---machines that kill people one at a time or in hundreds and thousand---so morality is not being discussed over here---.
> 
> What is discussed is straight forward ruthless brutal and honest assessment without prejudice---.
> 
> You would need to look elsewhere for morality---.


Your prejudice is that you are devoid of facts. You have access to no information yet the way you post is as if you are sitting in the BoI itself and reviewing all the details.

You make claims that the pilot was flying callously, what factual data do you have and what professional qualifications do you have to make such statements at this point in time and lastly, are you aware of the details of flight envelope and the demo routine that the pilot was supposed to fly? 

Pilot error of course is not an impossibility but let's desist from posting misinformed conjecture which does nobody any good and ends up misinforming people.

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## krash

Amavous said:


> Is this true that PAF is continuing the rehearsals?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238005409161465856



Would not expect it otherwise. Or did we think that they were going to get scared and scrap everything? Sit huddled up in their bunkers?

Pardon the hyperbole, but these men are bred to face death. They face a distinct possibility of not returning every time they take off. WC Nauman was just one of the uncountable that they have lost and will lose. It just hit the Pakistani people harder than usual this time because it's the first time they saw it happen with their own eyes, that too during preparation meant for national celebrations. Nothing new for the PAF or any other branch of the Pakistani security apparatus. As I said before, there was always someone standing right behind WC Nauman, ready, willing and waiting to follow him into the air and then into the ground. Then there's another standing right behind him.

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## Counter-Errorist

@MastanKhan @Socra







The crash happened around 5km away from Margalla Hills, there weren't any mountains nearby.


----------



## SQ8

Counter-Errorist said:


> @MastanKhan @Socra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The crash happened around 5km away from Margalla Hills, there weren't any mountains nearby.


How did you determine elevation on that map?


----------



## Counter-Errorist

Socra said:


> How did you determine elevation on that map?



I just returned from the cordon perimeter. The green you see is the Pakistan Sports Board grounds. There's no mountains nearby. I'm sure we have other PSB regulars here who could testify.


----------



## SQ8

Counter-Errorist said:


> I just returned from the cordon perimeter. The green you see is the Pakistan Sports Board grounds. There's no mountains nearby. I'm sure we have other PSB regulars here who could testify.



Mountains is a relative term. You on your feet walking at 3 mph have no obstacles to worry about.

A F-16 at 500mph has an entire 20mi radius of obstacles and elevation to consider in a matter of seconds.

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## The Eagle

Counter-Errorist said:


> @MastanKhan @Socra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The crash happened around 5km away from Margalla Hills, there weren't any mountains nearby.



Shakarparian is just next to Daman-e-Koh connecting Margalla hills (North side), if I am not wrong... been there for 10 months.


----------



## Counter-Errorist

Socra said:


> Mountains is a relative term. You on your feet walking at 3 mph have no obstacles to worry about.
> 
> A F-16 at 500mph has an entire 20mi radius of obstacles and elevation to consider in a matter of seconds.



With due respect brother, the crash is being attributed to a mountain being nearby. That is simply what I'm trying to dispel. An aircraft doing a loop would hardly be going over 100mph horizontally. So a mountain 5km away should not be considered relevant.



The Eagle said:


> Shakarparian is just next to Daman-e-Koh connecting Margalla hills (North side), if I am not wrong... been there for 10 months.



Look up Pakistan-China Friendship Center - that's where the close-up CCTV footage was taken.


----------



## The Eagle

Sulemanms202 said:


> i hope this crash is not hiding attempt on sensitives sites!



My friend, we really need to stay away from such toxic thoughts or conspiracies. No more please. 

Regards,

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## Cuirassier

Sulemanms202 said:


> i hope this crash is not hiding attempt on sensitives sites!


Elaborate?


----------



## Raider 21

MBilal106 said:


> Maybe US used F-16 kill switch !


It is Friday. Already seeing bad bullshit.

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## Mig hunter

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> Never forget---two enemy aircraft do not make the PAF conquerers ( GOT ).
> 
> You kids do not have the ability to look at the faults in a critical manner---. Your emotions take charge of your common sense---.
> 
> This pilot hit the high tension power lines---.
> 
> Which clearly means that he was where he was not supposed to be---secondly---he did not know there were power lines---and the mountain area by itself next to open valley is a big no no for an aerobatic demo training flight.
> 
> If visibility issues were present---the flight should have been cancelled---.
> 
> But definitely this was a flight of an over zealous and over eager pilot basking in the glory of the past incidents---.
> 
> SUB THEEK HAI---KOI PARWAH NAHIN
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Obviously the weather issue was there---the cloud cover was there---it just did not happen within mere second or a blink of an eye---and yet the pilot did not restrain from continuing the flight and no one from the ground pulled him back.
> 
> About his son---with his last act the father made sure the family would be well taken care of---.
> 
> If the pilot had ejected in a timely manner he could have been court-martialed for being at fault---.
> 
> We parents end up doing strange things for our children---.
> 
> When I was single I never thought I would do things for my children that I would do now---.


Yep, the only wise and critical thinker man on the forum.. Bravo
There is critical thinking and then there is sick thinking, u always prefer the 2nd one

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## Raider 21

Mig hunter said:


> Yep, the only wise and critical thinker man on the forum.. Bravo
> There is critical thinking and then there is sick thinking, u always prefer the 2nd one


Remember his age, so his age relates to his experience. Since he's older he'll be always be right in that mindset.


----------



## Pakistan Space Agency

Ina Lillahi Wa Ina Alaihi Rajioun.

May Allah bless the warrior with the highest abode in Jannat-ul-Firdaus.

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## baqai

i have heard 23rd parade is cancelled, if only it was cancelled few days back he would be with us


----------



## TsAr

MBilal106 said:


> Maybe US used F-16 kill switch !


I so wish I could give a negative rating here....



baqai said:


> i have heard 23rd parade is cancelled, if only it was cancelled few days back he would be with us


his time was up whether it was for 23rd march or not.....We as Muslims believe that life and death belongs to Allah...

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## Counter-Errorist

Can we revert this thread back to its original purpose?

It's turned a somber set of events into a full-on crapfest.

I suggest any further discussion (speculation) be segregated to another dedicated thread.

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## Adam_Khan

Video of mirage crash last month, not sure if posted before. 





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2527611624185758

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## NA71

Look at our people.... So caring and loving for our boys.... Rushed to the crach site helping him.... Chanting Allah o Akbar.....

I wonder why sudden rise in crash incidents.....


----------



## Windjammer

Capture from a new video shows the F-16 just before it hits the ground....no high tension wires or fire.
The brave martyred warrior just trying desperately to save the aircraft.

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## NeonNinja

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238739605194768385

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## NA71

NeonNinja said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238739605194768385


the whole assumptions and analysis we have made so far..... are again proved wrong...just listen the skidding sound and this friction to ground may cause the initial fire.

@StormBreaker @Hodor @The Eagle @airomerix


----------



## NA71

SIPRA said:


> I thought that there is only one CCTV footage of last moments of crash. Is there another video, as well?


the above video is latest ....posted by arshad sharif of ARY NEWS....

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## SIPRA

NA71 said:


> the above video is latest ....posted by arshad sharif of ARY NEWS....



Thanks.



NA71 said:


> the above video is latest ....posted by arshad sharif of ARY NEWS....



You shall tag all those PDF posters, who have knowledge of aviation, to analyse this latest video, in conjunction with already available videos and images.


----------



## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238749592335851521

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## deep_blue

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238749592335851521


Looks like inter services contingent. May be during rehearsals


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## SIPRA

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238749592335851521



Yeh kaun *sakhi* haen
Jin kay *lahoo ki ashrafiyaan*
Chan chan chan chan
Dharti kay paeham piyasay
Kashkol main dhalti jaati haen
Kashkol ko bharti jaati haen

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## Enigma SIG

NA71 said:


> the whole assumptions and analysis we have made so far..... are again proved wrong...just listen the skidding sound and this friction to ground may cause the initial fire.
> 
> @StormBreaker @Hodor @The Eagle @airomerix


You can clearly see sparks high above the ground before it crashed. No high tension wires though.


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## sherdil76

Arshad Malik is totally wrong about his claim, check the attached picture

Aircraft did hit the HTW that flamed the aircraft engine moment before hitting the ground (Ref to clip of PakChina center's security cam.) You can also hear the popping sound of electric shocks in another clip which shows a man showing the crash site before the army Jawan and fire fighters came in and locked the site. 

Also the dawn news posted their breaking news with a picture of hanging wires (ie of the pole that is in middle, of attached picture)







Lastly but most importantly this new clip shows the initial steep downwards angle of angle of attack and then last minute effort of recovering by pilot suggests he would certainly suffered a G-lock, then recovered but not much height and time left for a successful escape... RIP Braveheart

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## NA71

some sort of splash just before touching ground...

View attachment 613703


View attachment 613704


yes @sherdil76 it is definitely electrical splash sound...i am very familiar with it (my field of work) and before hitting the ground a brief bluish white light is basically electrical contact. Just watch the video the light when plane appears behind trees before touching ground....



first splash...





2nd photo when it touches ground:

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## baqai

ohh from this last clip it seems that it's GLOC, plane is coming straight down and you can see attempts to pull up at the very last few seconds, his first instinct was to pull up instead of ejecting

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## sherdil76

Huge electric spark

Engine flame before touching the ground


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## Bratva

*Report: Thunderbirds pilot killed in crash lost consciousness in high-G maneuver*
Stephen Losey
October 16, 2018





Thunderbirds pilot Maj. Stephen Del Bagno prepares to board his F-16 Fighting Falcon during a modified ground show practice at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, Jan. 26. Del Bagno was killed April 4 when his aircraft crashed on the Nevada Test and Training Range during a practice aerial demonstration. (Master Sgt. Christopher Boitz/Air Force)


Thunderbirds pilot Maj. Stephen Del Bagno temporarily lost consciousness during a high G-force maneuver and was incapacitated right before a fatal crash in April.

The Air Force on Tuesday released the report on the investigation into the April 4 crash at the Nevada Test and Training Range near Nellis Air Force Base.

*Del Bagno, along with five other elite Thunderbird pilots, was practicing an aerial maneuver called the High Bomb Burst Rejoin, and flew inverted for about 22 seconds at about 5,500 to 5,700 feet above ground level, where he experienced up to negative two G-forces, the report said.

Del Bagno then started a descending half-loop maneuver called the Split-S, reaching a maximum of 8.56 Gs after five seconds, the report said. The extreme G-forces caused him to lose consciousness and be absolutely incapacitated for the next five seconds.

About a second before hitting the ground, the report said he recovered somewhat and started trying to recover his F-16CM, but it was too late. He did not attempt to eject.
*
T*he accident investigation board found that the “push-pull effect” of quickly going from -2.06 Gs — or twice the equivalent of standing on one’s head — to 8.56 Gs dramatically lessened his tolerance to G-forces, and substantially contributed to the crash. Those conditions also lessened the effectiveness of his anti-G force straining maneuver.

Del Bagno, whose call sign was “Cajun,” was an experienced F-35 pilot, whose love of flying, enthusiasm and excitement for his first season with the Thunderbirds was apparent to all. In a January video documenting the moment he and other newly minted Thunderbirds received their iconic red flight helmets, Del Bagno called it “a fantastic day.”*

His death rocked the Air Force, and especially the Thunderbird community, which grieved his loss. Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson and Chief of Staff Gen. Dave Goldfein were among those who expressed their grief. Fighter jets flew a missing man formation during a memorial service for Del Bagno at his high school in Santa Clarita, California, in April.

The Thunderbirds, known formally as the U.S. Air Force Air Demonstration Squadron, suspended public performances for six weeks after Del Bagno’s loss.

The report said Del Bagno was known as “an ‘inspirational’ leader who was always positive and put others before himself.”

“The merger between his positive personality and pilot skills made him a ‘perfect fit for the Thunderbirds' mission to recruit, retain and inspire,” the report said. “A member of his squadron summed up [Del Bagno] as ‘just a beautiful human being.’”
*
Del Bagno appeared in good spirits before the flight, the report said, and was current and qualified to fly. He had a reputation for exceptional physical fitness and had carried out many high-G maneuvers successfully in the weeks prior to the mishap.

But the report said that physical fitness does not protect against the physiological effects of negative-Gs, which can widen blood vessels and result in a loss of blood pressure and lowered heart rate. This can increase the danger when a pilot quickly shifts to high G-forces, which tends to pull the blood to the abdomen and lower extremities and away from the brain.*

The F-16 was not overdue for any inspections, and there was no indication of any recurring maintenance problems or any mechanical, structural or electrical failure that would have contributed to the crash.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/...-crash-lost-consciousness-in-high-g-maneuver/

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## sherdil76



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## V. Makarov

AOA, I'm Vladimir Makarov. I don't know the first thing about Aircraft aerobatics, hence I will not comment on the crash.

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## Readerdefence

V. Makarov said:


> AOA, I'm Vladimir Makarov. I don't know the first thing about Aircraft aerobatics, hence I will not comment on the crash.


Hi my friend thanks for your understanding on this matter 
Thank you


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## M.AsfandYar

__ https://www.facebook.com/










__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## airomerix

After viewing some videos, Air Force pilots have ruled out the possibility of compressor stall or electrical wires as a cause of crash.

Only if he had 10-15 more feet, he would have pulled up from ground zero.

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## The Eagle

sherdil76 said:


> View attachment 613732



The argument of Electric Wire started in view of a possibility that if he had some more height, could have pulled A/C in loop. However, saying that Wires are totally responsible for crash, is wrong. It was discussed to explain the possibility to recover A/C.

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## SIPRA

airomerix said:


> After viewing some videos, Air Force pilots have *ruled* the possibility of compressor stall or electrical wires as a cause of crash.



I think, you mean "have ruled out".


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## HRK

M.AsfandYar said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/



I have downloaded the above posted video and watch multiple time, this video make it clear that there was no fire ball till the very last moment before impact to the ground ..... 










following is the link for 4 time enlarge pic [click]

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## M.AsfandYar

HRK said:


> I have downloaded the above posted video and watch multiple time, this video make it clear that there was no fire ball till the very last moment before impact to the ground .....
> 
> View attachment 613788
> 
> View attachment 613789


And it didnt hit any high tension cables.
Looks more and more like pilot misjudgement. 
Even the greatest of men makes mistakes. I hope PAF sets certain restrictions and guideline for future.
Though it did seem very fast. And it was pitching down till the last second. Few more feet and he might've made it.

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## HRK

M.AsfandYar said:


> Looks more and more like pilot misjudgement.


Well won't comment on this till official enquiry is concluded as there could be many other reasons for this mishap, In my post I was just highlighting that there was no impact with high tension wire till very last moment of crash to the ground

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## Humble Analyst

Mig hunter said:


> Yep, the only wise and critical thinker man on the forum.. Bravo
> There is critical thinking and then there is sick thinking, u always prefer the 2nd one





The Eagle said:


> The argument of Electric Wire started in view of a possibility that if he had some more height, could have pulled A/C in loop. However, saying that Wires are totally responsible for crash, is wrong. It was discussed to explain the possibility to recover A/C.


Agree when and if he hit the wires he was already too low and other circumstances brought the plane to such low altitude.
The possibility of a black or brown out or what some like to call a G Loc and the S type maneuver resulting in possible incapacity for a brief time are there by looking at the videos. The presence of clouds alone should have resulted in changing and increasing the minimum altitude. But this is all speculation until the result of inquiry are available. Looking at past release of the investigations, results may not be made public.
A fine pilot and a good family man is gone and this incident should be investigated fully to avoid unnecessary risks. Those who say flying is risky I do not disagree but at the same time believe in avoiding risks unless it is absolute necessary.

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## NA71

airomerix said:


> After viewing some videos, Air Force pilots have ruled out the possibility of compressor stall or electrical wires as a cause of crash.
> 
> Only if he had 10-15 more feet, he would have pulled up from ground zero.


sir if you look at this power line tower.....it is double circuit 11KV lines ....means 6 wires....the yellow encircled conductors terminal insulator pointing towards ground..... it means connected line is broken....

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## Windjammer

City of Eagles, remembers it's Hero.

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## Silicon0000

Plane definitely fall like a rock for sometime so it's either mechanical failure or loss of consciousness which is played a role. 

Wires are at a height where plane presence means nothing can be done actually so it's useless to debate that if pilot knows about wires and poles location ..... etc etc

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## sherdil76

This clip is enough to explain (by experts obviously) what went wrong inside the cabin of that ill fated aircraft...



M.AsfandYar said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/

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## khanasifm

??


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## Tom_Cruise

M.AsfandYar said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/



So painful watching that. Devastating.

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## Windjammer

Virtually at treetop height and nose pointing straight down tells us of some serious issues with the flight.

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## sherdil76

I am not an expert but what I believe is that the pilot took a very early / low loop maneuver and suffered GLOC on his way down though he recovered and tried to steer out of falling too steep too fast but failed, he probably had 2 to 3 seconds to decide before hitting the ground...

Secondly those high tension wires are not at all responsible for crash, neither, if they were not there would have changed anything from happening, but my question is why an ace pilot would risk doing such a low level maneuver over the highest point of Shakar Parriyan with tall mega-wires poles and trees? Did aircraft had correct ground and altitude readings in first place?

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## Windjammer

sherdil76 said:


> I am not an expert but what I believe is that the pilot took a very early / low loop maneuver and suffered GLOC on his way down though he recovered and tried to steer out of falling too steep too fast but failed, he probably had 2 to 3 seconds to decide before hitting the ground...
> 
> Secondly those high tension wires are not at all responsible for crash, neither, if they were not there would have changed anything from happening, but my question is why an ace pilot would risk doing such a low level maneuver over the highest point of Shakar Parriyan with tall mega-wires poles and trees? Did aircraft had correct ground and altitude readings in first place?


I have been advised there's no question of G-LOC as he was experienced enough to pull 9G....where as during the loop he was doing much less.


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## Amaa'n

airomerix said:


> After viewing some videos, Air Force pilots have ruled out the possibility of compressor stall or electrical wires as a cause of crash.
> 
> Only if he had 10-15 more feet, he would have pulled up from ground zero.


Agree, possibility of COmpressor stall is ruled out.....I wasn't even considering electrical wires as cause of crash, that got nothing to do with the incident

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## sherdil76

The only difference that I can see between this and Noman, is that this pilot was in senses throughout and didn't suffered a GLOC.... Where you can see that Noman's was initially falling like rock until the very last moment tried to recover



khanasifm said:


> ??



I think anyone can get a GLOC in such maneuver and especially those in 40s, it's a tricky age... 

But if its not the GLOC then why it was falling straight down till last second... possible bird strike???



Windjammer said:


> I have been advised there's no question of G-LOC as he was experienced enough to pull 9G....where as during the loop he was doing much less.

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## Windjammer

sherdil76 said:


> The only difference that I can see between this and Noman, is that this pilot was in senses throughout and didn't suffered a GLOC.... Where you can see that Noman's was initially falling like rock until the very last moment tried to recover
> 
> But if its not the GLOC then why it was falling straight down till last second... possible bird strike???


Bird strike would have caused the aircraft to emit smoke if not a tongue of flame.....my hunch was frozen control or even the elevator but i'm no expert.....

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## Amavous

Windjammer said:


> City of Eagles, remembers it's Hero.



There are banners and hoardings about him in many places in Sargodha city. Especially on PAF road and university road which are very near PAF base Sargodha.

Actually I was surprised to see them but due to the internet and social media people are more aware of it.

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## Humble Analyst

NA71 said:


> sir if you look at this power line tower.....it is double circuit 11KV lines ....means 6 wires....the yellow encircled conductors terminal insulator pointing towards ground..... it means connected line is broken....
> 
> View attachment 613795


In one of the videos the person says do not go there are wires (taren hen udhar). Does not mean that electric cables were caused of the accident but may have compounded the effect of it or not will know after the enquiry


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## sherdil76

PAF should stop using its elite pilots and frontline assets in such events meant for 10 minutes entertainment max, if not then T38 and K8 are more than enough

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## Windjammer

Amavous said:


> There are banners and hoardings about him in many places in Sargodha city. Especially on PAF road and university road which are very near PAF base Sargodha.
> 
> Actually I was surprised to see them but due to the internet and social media people are more aware of it.

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## airomerix

sherdil76 said:


> PAF should stop using its elite pilots and frontline assets in such events meant for 10 minutes entertainment max, if not then T38 and K8 are more than enough



It is being considered to only use JF-17 for future shows. But aerobatics will take place. 




NA71 said:


> sir if you look at this power line tower.....it is double circuit 11KV lines ....means 6 wires....the yellow encircled conductors terminal insulator pointing towards ground..... it means connected line is broken....
> 
> View attachment 613795



This picture is very vague evidence to draw any conclusion. The lines can be severed for any reason. Whenever a transformer blows up, the lines do break. A transformer did fall down which means a few wires did break.

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## Raider 21

sherdil76 said:


> The only difference that I can see between this and Noman, is that this pilot was in senses throughout and didn't suffered a GLOC.... Where you can see that Noman's was initially falling like rock until the very last moment tried to recover
> 
> 
> 
> I think anyone can get a GLOC in such maneuver and especially those in 40s, it's a tricky age...
> 
> But if its not the GLOC then why it was falling straight down till last second... possible bird strike???


It was not G-LOC and he was not coming straight down but in trajectory going with the Max G he was pulling. The angle and position of where the video was shot gives out the impression he was heading straight down. If that were the case, his training would have told him to eject, unless his sole intent was to save the jet. His final decision either way costed his life and the jet.

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## airomerix

Knuckles said:


> It was not G-LOC and he was not coming straight down but in trajectory going with the Max G he was pulling. The angle and position of where the video was shot gives out the impression he was heading straight down. If that were the case, his training would have told him to eject, unless his sole intent was to save the jet. His final decision either way costed his life and the jet.



The video clearly shows the elevators fully deployed and nose being jacked up, which explains he was trying to recover the aircraft.

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## NA71

for 11 kv circuits...HT transformers are not installed on Poles....and there is mechanism that separate conductors from mechanical stress ... they can only be broken through cross strong winds ...or through Impact.

The broken conductor may not be the cause of crash but it is definitely involved in plane's final route.

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## Windjammer

Some one who knows his stuff had this to say.

*He just misjudged the split S height and/or had a compressor stall on the third half pulling up - then kept trying to recover the aircraft.*

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Some one who knows his stuff had this to say.
> 
> *He just misjudged the split S height and/or had a compressor stall on the third half pulling up - then kept trying to recover the aircraft.*


Multiple variables still being investigated including that. Some of the PAF pilots mentioned pilot error by missing out on a roll followed by a Split S. A large contribution of it was poor judgment. 

Saw previous demos which show 2 slow rolls followed by a Split S.

Multiple variables, multiple narratives, for an unfortunate outcome.

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## Path-Finder

So do we know what caused the incident with the plane?


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## Safriz

Clearest video of the last moments.
He seems to have levelled out the plane quite high up but the plane keeps falling and he hits power lines at the last moments.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238971680610975744

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## BATMAN

Knuckles said:


> It was not G-LOC and he was not coming straight down but in trajectory going with the Max G he was pulling. The angle and position of where the video was shot gives out the impression he was heading straight down. If that were the case, his training would have told him to eject, unless his sole intent was to save the jet. His final decision either way costed his life and the jet.


That's true, and i suspect some electronic warfare weapon was used from the ground.



شاھین میزایل said:


> Clearest video of the last moments.
> He seems to have levelled out the plane quite high up but the plane keeps falling and he hits power lines at the last moment.



very brave indeed.


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## SaffronBandit

NeonNinja said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238739605194768385


He needed 500 feet to have barely survived this one. The nose is pitched up but the downward momentum was too great.

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## Vortex

airomerix said:


> It is being considered to only use JF-17 for future shows. But aerobatics will take place.



I don’t know how happen the training with PAF about the shows, but here in France, the Patrouille de France made with highly skilled pilots ( team specialised for the shows) trains 6 months each years specifically for the shows. Pilots stay in the team from 2 to 4 years and there is a turn over of 3 pilots each year... 

I’m not expert nor a pilot so take it as only my 2 anays khi soch.

It is always sad to hear such loss of life in our armed forces. I pray for their safety but when Time comes... nobody could escape.


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## Raider 21

Vortex said:


> I don’t know how happen the training with PAF about the shows, but here in France, the Patrouille de France made with highly skilled pilots ( team specialised for the shows) trains 6 months each years specifically for the shows. Pilots stay in the team from 2 to 4 years and there is a turn over of 3 pilots each year...
> 
> I’m not expert nor a pilot so take it as only my 2 anays khi soch.
> 
> It is always sad to hear such loss of life in our armed forces. I pray for their safety but when Time comes... nobody could escape.


That is a dedicated aerobatics team. Same goes with the Rafale solo demo team. Whereas with PAF demos they are normally practiced close to a time of choosing regarding an occasion. PAF normally does not have a dedicated squadron pilot who flies demos. A good example is UAEAF, who have a junior operational pilots assigned as demo pilots for flying the Mirage 2000-9 & F-16 Block 60s.

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## Vortex

Knuckles said:


> That is a dedicated aerobatics team. Same goes with the Rafale solo demo team. Whereas with PAF demos they are normally practiced close to a time of choosing regarding an occasion. PAF normally does not have a dedicated squadron pilot who flies demos. A good example is UAEAF, who have a junior operational pilots assigned as demo pilots for flying the Mirage 2000-9 & F-16 Block 60s.



Thanks for explanation. Therefore PAF should change a little bit the shows training. I’m not advocating for having a full time demo team, but at least training for demo should be a little bit more than the few days allocated (as per my reading here and there).

I know we have many constraints so it’s not easy.

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## Raider 21

Vortex said:


> Thanks for explanation. Therefore PAF should change a little bit the shows training. I’m not advocating for having a full time demo team, but at least training for demo should be a little bit more than the few days allocated (as per my reading here and there).
> 
> I know we have many constraints so it’s not easy.


Airshows are more of a recruiting tool and defence expos outside of Pakistan. For the average kid aspiring to be a pilot, he's normally more caught with a few PAF songs. In retrospect, a kid in let's say the USA would be inspired by an airshow display that happens regularly around the country.

Different cultures, different mindsets.

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## anathema

Knuckles said:


> That is a dedicated aerobatics team. Same goes with the Rafale solo demo team. Whereas with PAF demos they are normally practiced close to a time of choosing regarding an occasion. PAF normally does not have a dedicated squadron pilot who flies demos. A good example is UAEAF, who have a *junior operational pilots *assigned as demo pilots for flying the Mirage 2000-9 & F-16 Block 60s.



Junior pilots ? Are you sure ? World over aviators consider flying display as one of the most challenging since margin of error is extremely small. So pretty much display team is made up of seasoned aviators !


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## baqai

he had ample amount of time to bail out but he till the very last second was trying to pull up

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## LeGenD

I am late to comment on this development due to sickness, but I shall do the needful.

Very sad news and development (i.e. loss of PAF’s Wg Cdr Noman Akram). 

*Inna Lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un*.

My 2 cents.

1. WE live in troubling times (aur iss era mein nazar lagg jaati hai). Lessen demonstrations at personal and national capacity. Dua for mercy from Allah Almighty.

2. PAF should not consider accomplished pilots for RISKY acrobatics in a show. Maybe consider training a few pilots for these ends/spectacles - safer this way.

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## CaptainNemo



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## ghazi52

DG ISPR
No PR- 45/2020-ISPR
Lahore, March 15, 2020

Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Qamar Javed Bajwa visited family of Wing Commander Noman Akram Shaheed in Lahore today.
COAS prayed for the departed soul and offered Fateha.
" We owe improved peace & stability to supreme sacrifices rendered by our martyrs. Their sacrifices won’t go waste”. COAS







__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1239238978290810880

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## Silicon0000

I think PAF should make a dedicated team of pilots for air shows with JF17. It will also help in JF17 promotion in international air shows. 

Just my opinion.

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## Raider 21

anathema said:


> Junior pilots ? Are you sure ? World over aviators consider flying display as one of the most challenging since margin of error is extremely small. So pretty much display team is made up of seasoned aviators !


Yes by junior operational pilots. Another thing from when I spoke to a retired Viper veteran today, PAF does not field a no.2 or safety observer when aerobatics are being flown as they normally stay in radio comms with them. Another negative sadly.

Notice in the clip below, 2 rolls followed by a split S a few seconds later. PAF Viper demos normally are not creative to change hence the expected maneuver by late Wing Commander Noman would have been the same. In the videos from what I've noticed, he does 1 roll followed by an immediate Split S.

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## extinct

Everyone knows about stalls but there is a lesser known category of stalls that happens at high speed during maneuvers (turns and loops)... this is because the "angle of attack" (thus the "critical angle of attack" just before stall) is between "wing chord" and "relative wind" and not the "head wind"... 

when a pilot tries to pull close to the bottom of a loop his/her plane (to level out) the wing is close to critical angle of attack since the "relative wind vector" is more from the bottom of the wing. The wing loses lift and the plane starts sinking in the loop... the only way to decrease the angle of attack here is to ease on the stick, or widen the loop, but the wider loop is not possible since the ground is fast approaching and if there is no altitude margin (this was an demonstration maneuver designed to wow the spectators so no margin here) a crash in inevitable...

Lift of a wing depends on (at current altitude) wind speed/direction, humidity, baro pressure, ambient temperature... Physics is brutal and the equation is dynamic... you set your loop decision heights and after that you are on a roller coaster that will follow the tracks of physics...

This was neither pilot error, nor it was machine error... an experienced airshow caliber pilot was rehearsing maneuvers to wow a crowd, margins were lowered and it was his day to perish due to an unsolvable equation...

I think he did eject at the last moment, hence the parachute deployment, saved his remains intact, quite lucky as the outcome could have been complete vaporization at a nose first impact...

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## Raider 21

extinct said:


> Everyone knows about stalls but there is a lesser known category of stalls that happens at high speed during maneuvers (turns and loops)... this is because the "angle of attack" (thus the "critical angle of attack" just before stall) is between "wing chord" and "relative wind" and not the "head wind"...
> 
> when a pilot tries to pull close to the bottom of a loop his/her plane (to level out) the wing is close to critical angle of attack since the "relative wind vector" is more from the bottom of the wing. The wing loses lift and the plane starts sinking in the loop... the only way to decrease the angle of attack here is to ease on the stick, or widen the loop, but the wider loop is not possible since the ground is fast approaching and if there is no altitude margin (this was an demonstration maneuver designed to wow the spectators so no margin here) a crash in inevitable...
> 
> Lift of a wing depends on (at current altitude) wind speed/direction, humidity, baro pressure, ambient temperature... Physics is brutal and the equation is dynamic... you set your loop decision heights and after that you are on a roller coaster that will follow the tracks of physics...
> 
> This was neither pilot error, nor it was machine error... an experienced airshow caliber pilot was rehearsing maneuvers to wow a crowd, margins were lowered and it was his day to perish due to an unsolvable equation...
> 
> I think he did eject at the last moment, hence the parachute deployment, saved his remains intact, quite lucky as the outcome could have been complete vaporization at a nose first impact...


He was an experienced fighter pilot, a sharpshooter by talent and qualifications. Not to mention a leader by OC. But definitely he was not an experienced demo pilot and no you're mistaken. Did not eject at all.

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## airomerix

extinct said:


> Everyone knows about stalls but there is a lesser known category of stalls that happens at high speed during maneuvers (turns and loops)... this is because the "angle of attack" (thus the "critical angle of attack" just before stall) is between "wing chord" and "relative wind" and not the "head wind"...
> 
> when a pilot tries to pull close to the bottom of a loop his/her plane (to level out) the wing is close to critical angle of attack since the "relative wind vector" is more from the bottom of the wing. The wing loses lift and the plane starts sinking in the loop... the only way to decrease the angle of attack here is to ease on the stick, or widen the loop, but the wider loop is not possible since the ground is fast approaching and if there is no altitude margin (this was an demonstration maneuver designed to wow the spectators so no margin here) a crash in inevitable...
> 
> Lift of a wing depends on (at current altitude) wind speed/direction, humidity, baro pressure, ambient temperature... Physics is brutal and the equation is dynamic... you set your loop decision heights and after that you are on a roller coaster that will follow the tracks of physics...
> 
> This was neither pilot error, nor it was machine error... an experienced airshow caliber pilot was rehearsing maneuvers to wow a crowd, margins were lowered and it was his day to perish due to an unsolvable equation...
> 
> I think he did eject at the last moment, hence the parachute deployment, saved his remains intact, quite lucky as the outcome could have been complete vaporization at a nose first impact...



Beautifully explained.

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## Safriz

extinct said:


> Everyone knows about stalls but there is a lesser known category of stalls that happens at high speed during maneuvers (turns and loops)... this is because the "angle of attack" (thus the "critical angle of attack" just before stall) is between "wing chord" and "relative wind" and not the "head wind"...
> 
> when a pilot tries to pull close to the bottom of a loop his/her plane (to level out) the wing is close to critical angle of attack since the "relative wind vector" is more from the bottom of the wing. The wing loses lift and the plane starts sinking in the loop... the only way to decrease the angle of attack here is to ease on the stick, or widen the loop, but the wider loop is not possible since the ground is fast approaching and if there is no altitude margin (this was an demonstration maneuver designed to wow the spectators so no margin here) a crash in inevitable...
> 
> Lift of a wing depends on (at current altitude) wind speed/direction, humidity, baro pressure, ambient temperature... Physics is brutal and the equation is dynamic... you set your loop decision heights and after that you are on a roller coaster that will follow the tracks of physics...
> 
> This was neither pilot error, nor it was machine error... an experienced airshow caliber pilot was rehearsing maneuvers to wow a crowd, margins were lowered and it was his day to perish due to an unsolvable equation...
> 
> I think he did eject at the last moment, hence the parachute deployment, saved his remains intact, quite lucky as the outcome could have been complete vaporization at a nose first impact...


Pilot never ejected. There is a video being shared on social media in which a PAF pilot is lying on the ground with parachute deployed, but that's from Mianwali crash involving an FT-7.
The plane did come down like a bullet after the loop and there seems to be something wrong. An experienced pilot couldn't have come that fast towards the ground.


----------



## Yaseen1

initial reports saying that jet was hit by bird due to which its maneuverability was affected and pilot failed to control it,also there were birds flying near jet at time of accident.


----------



## Raider 21

Silicon0000 said:


> I think PAF should make a dedicated team of pilots for air shows with JF17. It will also help in JF17 promotion in international air shows.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Manpower is something they'd lack, PAF normally moves in a cyclic manner particularly with pilots. It took them over 30 years just to upgrade their Sherdils routine. Nothing is impossible in their capabilities, they have top notch aviators who can do the job. They just don't exhibit a culture for those type of air shows.

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1239370406462722048

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## sneakerspark

Knuckles said:


> Yes by junior operational pilots. Another thing from when I spoke to a retired Viper veteran today, PAF does not field a no.2 or safety observer when aerobatics are being flown as they normally stay in radio comms with them. Another negative sadly.
> 
> Notice in the clip below, 2 rolls followed by a split S a few seconds later. PAF Viper demos normally are not creative to change hence the expected maneuver by late Wing Commander Noman would have been the same. In the videos from what I've noticed, he does 1 roll followed by an immediate Split S.


I'm glad you pointed this out. This is what i have been discussing in my circle. He did only one roll instead of two as been done previously. I was an eye witness to this from start till end. I observed the following:

1. While entering into the arena, i observed the the aircraft was relatively lower as compared to JF17 ( jf also preformed the same day before f16)

2. While taking the right hand turn as per the planned maneuver, aircraft pulled up and only performed single roll instead of two which made him lose precious additional altitude to complete split s within the safe envelope.

3. While performing the split s, it appeared to me aircraft pulled up relatively late while it was coming down vertically which indicates that pilot wasn't pulling on stick as hard as the circumstances would nhave required. That would have been a normal if aircraft was subjected to two rolls resulting in additional altitude.


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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1239370406462722048


*A video from the same event.*

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## krash

Windjammer said:


> I have been advised there's no question of G-LOC as he was experienced enough to pull 9G....where as during the loop he was doing much less.



Unfortunately, experience isn't a guarantee against the phenomenon. Plenty of very experienced pilots have perished to G-LOC.

I know we are all a bit emotional about it and putting the crash to anything related to the Wing Commander seems like a disservice to him, his skill, and his service. Due to that we keep trying to claim and hold on to the possibility that it was anything but him. However, these things have happened to the best and the most experienced before. Thing to remember is that this crash does not take anything away from the Wing Commander's credentials or skill that he exhibited throughout his career.

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## Safriz

krash said:


> Unfortunately, experience isn't a guarantee against the phenomenon. Plenty of very experienced pilots have perished to G-LOC.
> 
> I know we are all a bit emotional about it and putting the crash to anything related to the Wing Commander seems like a disservice to him, his skill, and his service. Due to that we keep trying to claim and hold on to the possibility that it was anything but him. However, these things have happened to the best and the most experienced before. Thing to remember is that this crash does not take anything away from the Wing Commander's credentials or skill that he exhibited throughout his career.


G-Loc is an occupational hazard faced by all fighter pilots.

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## Fire_Ball

Hope everyone is doing fine. I live near the parade ground so I watch these rehearsal every year. The manuvers they do are the same every year. Here's what happened.
Soon as the the F-16 arrives at the parade square it take a sharp right, pulls the aircraft up and does 4-5 rolls. After completing rolls it gains more altitude and then inverts the aircraft for a complete loop. 
What happened this time was after completing rolls W/c Noman inverted the aircraft and went for the loop without gaining more altitude which resulted in this crash. 
Another thing I noticed is that after completing rolls he kept his aircraft inverted a bit longer than usual, that makes me assume maybe he blacked out after rolls.

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## Raider 21

Fire_Ball said:


> Hope everyone is doing fine. I live near the parade ground so I watch these rehearsal every year. The manuvers they do are the same every year. Here's what happened.
> Soon as the the F-16 arrives at the parade square it take a sharp right, pulls the aircraft up and does 4-5 rolls. After completing rolls it gains more altitude and then inverts the aircraft for a complete loop.
> What happened this time was after completing rolls W/c Noman inverted the aircraft and went for the loop without gaining more altitude which resulted in this crash.
> Another thing I noticed is that after completing rolls he kept his aircraft inverted a bit longer than usual, that makes me assume maybe he blacked out after rolls.


Doing well, hope you're good too.

I'd say 2 rolls. Followed by slight increase in altitude and then the pilot would start a split S. Wing Commander Noman missed out on 1 roll and the slight altitude.

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## Fire_Ball

Yes, you are right he did 2 rolls to be exact. Please watch the F-16 performance of 2018 Parade and compare it with the crash video.






Watch from 24:20 onwards


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## extinct

Bottom line is...

گرتے ہیں شہسوار ہی میدان جنگ میں

He perished doing what he was good at and enjoyed... he perished in his chosen uniform... what more can a mortal ask for something that is inevitable...

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## Raider 21

extinct said:


> Bottom line is...
> 
> گرتے ہیں شہسوار ہی میدان جنگ میں
> 
> He perished doing what he was good at and enjoyed... he perished in his chosen uniform... what more can a mortal ask for something that is inevitable...


He was an F-16 pilot, a squadron commander, a leader and had an assignment to perform aerobatics. He must have done right things in life to be there. Very few are fortunate to be in a profession like that.

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## Ahmet Pasha

TOTAL CONSPIRACY THEORY FROM ME
But I think it's fishy how all these jets crashed near February 2020. Does India have assets in AirForce ground crews??

Just how much vetting and security clearance does an average technician go through??


PradoTLC said:


> *F-16 crash: Pakistan Air Force pilot Nauman sacrifices his life to save Islamabad population*
> Decorated pilot opted not to eject and crashed in woods to avoid casualties
> 
> Published:  March 11, 2020 18:43
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dubai: Wing Commander Nauman Akram who died in the Pakistan Air Force F-16 fighter jet crash on Wednesday morning in Islamabad, is being hailed as a national hero.
> 
> Initial investigations in to the crash revealed that Akram sacrificed his life to save lives of civilians in Islamabad. The pilot could have ejected the plane but instead he guided the aircraft towards woods in Shakarparian, a hill resort in Islamabad and crashed. Had he ejected the jet, it would have crashed over populated area and could have lead to massive damage and casualties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF pilot Nauman Akram with his colleaguesImage Credit: Social media
> A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 aircraft crashed near Shakarparian, Islamabad during rehearsals for the March 23 parade, a Pakistan Air Force spokesperson confirmed.
> 
> Netizens heaped praise on Nauman Akram and called him a national hero. “The nation lost a gem today. You were one of our finest, your services to the country will forever be remembered,” reads a tweet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Wing Commander Nauman Akram with Pakistan Army Chief General Javed Qamar Bajwa before his recent flight on F-16.Image Credit: PAF
> Nauman who embraced martyrdom was one of the best pilots at the PAF. He also recently flew Pakistan Army Chief General Qamar Javed Bajawa in an F-16. The videos of his flight with General also went viral.
> 
> Wing Comander Noman Akram Winner of SherAfghan Tropgy2019 Embraced Martyrdom In F16Crash Near Shakarparian Parade Ground.
> 
> Rest in Peace Sir,U were one of the Finst F-16Pilot PAF Had,Your srvics wil nvr be frgotn.
> Los of F-16 is Tragic but evn more so A Life of A Pilot is pricles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mubashir Zaidi, a Pakistani journalist, tweeted: “Air Force officials say Shaheed Wing Commander Nauman Akram could have easily ejected when the F-16 was over Blue Area (a high-end commercial and residential area in Islamabad) but he ensured that the plane go down in a secluded area to avoid casualties on the ground.”
> 
> Wing Commander Akram was also the winner of prestigious ‘Sher Afghan’ Trophy 2019 being marksman in Inter Squadron Armament Competition. He was survived by a widow and two children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wing Commander Akram receiving the prestigious ‘Sher Afghan’ Trophy 2019 for being marksman in Inter Squadron Armament CompetitionImage Credit:
> 
> Zain Hassan Jafri, another tweep, writes: “He didn’t eject. He gave his life for 2 reasons: To lift up the asset (F-16) and to save civilians from aircraft. _*But, he forgot one thing, he was the actual asset.*_”
> 
> A PAF statement reads: “Pakistan Air Force reports with regret that a PAF F-16 aircraft crashed near Shakarparian, Islamabad during the rehearsals of March 23 parade. A board of inquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters to determine the cause of accident.”
> 
> Shakarparian is a hill and famous picnic spot for residents in the capital, located near the Zero Point Interchange in Islamabad.
> 
> *Recent PAF aircraft crashes*
> A PAF trainer aircraft crashed on February 12 during a routine training mission near Takht Bhai in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa’s Mardan district. It was the third PAF training aircraft to have crashed while on a routine training mission in less than two months.
> 
> On Feb 7, a PAF Mirage aircraft, which was also on a routine operational training mission, had crashed near the Lahore-Multan Motorway. Pilots in both cases had ejected safely.
> 
> A PAF aircraft had crashed in early January while on a training flight near Mianwali. Both pilots — Squadron Leader Haris bin Khalid and Flying Officer Ibaadur Rehman — aboard the PAF FT-7 aircraft lost their lives in the crash.
> 
> 
> https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pak...-life-to-save-islamabad-population-1.70313717



Afterall, the chalaak dushman India has managed to penetrate media, politicians and a bunch of other institutions and used that to wage an unconventional war against us. Blackwater recruited former SSG some were disgruntled for some reason, some did it just for the money. I beleieve ISI's offensive capabilities are much much more limited than RAW. ISI does not seem to display forward thinking and grand strategies like RAW, MOSSAD, CIA etc do they act upon 5,10,15 year long term strategies, just look at deal of century and arab spring how these agencies turned the world upside down. Whereas, ISI is always busy with internal political randi rona. The agencies of the respective tri forces perform very well. Like on 27Feb the strikes PAF conducted were precise and Time on target was perfect credit goes to Naval/Air intelligence and MI during 27Feb and Pakistan's WoT.

I think the problem also lies in doctrinal changes when Gen Hameed Gul was led and he said in several interview that The American(CIA) and other secret society azad khayal assets in Pakistan felt ISI was getting too strong and needed it's wings to be cut.

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## Raider 21

Ahmet Pasha said:


> *TOTAL CONSPIRACY THEORY FROM ME*
> But I think it's fishy how all these jets crashed near February 2020. Does India have assets in AirForce ground crews??
> 
> Just how much vetting and security clearance does an average technician go through??
> 
> 
> Afterall, the chalaak dushman India has managed to penetrate media, politicians and a bunch of other institutions and used that to wage an unconventional war against us. Blackwater recruited former SSG some were disgruntled for some reason, .I beleieve ISI's offensive capabilities are much much more limited than RAW. ISI does not seem to display forward thinking and grand strategies like RAW, MOSSAD, CIA etc do they act upon 5,10,15 year long term strategies, just look at deal of century and arab spring how these agencies turned the world upside down. Whereas, ISI is always busy with internal political randi rona. The agencies of the respective tri forces perform very well. Like on 27Feb the strikes PAF conducted were precise and Time on target was perfect credit goes to Naval/Air intelligence and MI during 27Feb and Pakistan's WoT.
> 
> I think the problem also lies in doctrinal changes when Gen Hameed Gul was led and he said in several interview that The American(CIA) and other secret society azad khayal assets in Pakistan felt ISI was getting too strong and needed it's wings to be cut.


Conspiracy. Or fiction for a book or a TV show. 

And the article is wrong about the saving of civilians part, a little bit of coating the situation. His choice not to eject was up to him, and I quote some current and ex-Viper drivers that he could've punched out during the descent.

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## Raider 21



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## jay d

Knuckles said:


>


Thanks for sharing this. God bless the Shaheed.

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## masterchief_mirza

Knuckles said:


>


Thanks for uploading. Very brave action by the wing cmdr to tilt his jet and save civilian lives even though he knew he was doomed himself.



Knuckles said:


> Conspiracy. Or fiction for a book or a TV show.
> 
> And the article is wrong about the saving of civilians part, a little bit of coating the situation. His choice not to eject was up to him, and I quote some current and ex-Viper drivers that he could've punched out during the descent.


You're saying he did or he didn't save civilians? I'm not clear on your inference.


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## Basel

NA71 said:


> compare the very moments ....in single frame please check the change in cockpit...there was no tree either in front or in back side of the jet...
> 
> View attachment 612925



If he had ejected then a flame of rocket booster had to be visible in pics or video and F-16s have 0-0 ejection seats which should have saved the pilot.

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## SaffronBandit

Fire_Ball said:


> Yes, you are right he did 2 rolls to be exact. Please watch the F-16 performance of 2018 Parade and compare it with the crash video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch from 24:20 onwards



Interesting! I thought they'd been some modification to the maneuver but what WC Yasir Shaifique is doing is almost the same as what WC Nuaman was doing. The chain of events and the eventual mishap, after seeing this, has to be even before the actual split S because Shafique after doing rolls keeps gaining altitude for considerably longer duration before getting into the split S and also notice that he gains altitude and then inverts into the split s while Nauman got into the maneuver too soon and is gaining altitude inverted. Strange. Possibly it was the altimeter setting because Islamabad is at a higher sea level then Sargodha. Don't know the complete technicality of it is but it appears that he saw an in correct altitude and got into the maneuver too soon.

Anyway, I actually hope they don't make this inquiry public. Its pointless. Learn internally and move on.

Pilots who are fighter pilots first should not be doing these kind of shows. There should be dedicated ones to do it but of course that isn't a luxury Pakistan has. I've seen a Thunderbird and a Blue Angel crash doing this split s and they do this stuff all year long.



Knuckles said:


>


This is informative.
So many things that can go wrong that are just not of a visual nature

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## Safriz

Wing commander Nauman crash , processed video.
Many freeze frames to highlight various moments.
When he starts coming out of the dive he seems to be facing towards the population , or the side where the guy recording the video is standing. Houses or buildings can be seen in freeze Frame.
The levels the plane about 3 seconds before impact and at altitude , which is enough time to eject. But as soon as he is levelled, he starts banking left or away from population.
The last 3 most crucial seconds are spent on trying to steer the plane towards the narrow belt of trees ,to avoid crashing on population.
The high voltage line was hit, as evident by freeze frame of pylon . 
Also in the CCTV vide there are two very bright flashes at the beginning. These were caused by breaking power lines.

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## NA71

Please check.....


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Safriz

NA71 said:


> Please check.....
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


Your link is not working


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## NA71

شاھین میزایل said:


> Your link is not working


It is taken from Instagram...trying to find this beautiful video on you tube.....

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## Fire_Ball

Yes, there might have been some issue with the altimeter or he might have black out during rolls as you can see in the video the Aircraft was inverted for a bit longer than usual. Maybe it was too late when regained consciousness.
Secondly I guess during parade days they fly from PAF Base Nur Khan Rawalpindi as flying on daily basis from Sargodha is not very feasible.


SaffronBandit said:


> Interesting! I thought they'd been some modification to the maneuver but what WC Yasir Shaifique is doing is almost the same as what WC Nuaman was doing. The chain of events and the eventual mishap, after seeing this, has to be even before the actual split S because Shafique after doing rolls keeps gaining altitude for considerably longer duration before getting into the split S and also notice that he gains altitude and then inverts into the split s while Nauman got into the maneuver too soon and is gaining altitude inverted. Strange. Possibly it was the altimeter setting because Islamabad is at a higher sea level then Sargodha. Don't know the complete technicality of it is but it appears that he saw an in correct altitude and got into the maneuver too soon.
> 
> Anyway, I actually hope they don't make this inquiry public. Its pointless. Learn internally and move on.
> 
> Pilots who are fighter pilots first should not be doing these kind of shows. There should be dedicated ones to do it but of course that isn't a luxury Pakistan has. I've seen a Thunderbird and a Blue Angel crash doing this split s and they do this stuff all year long.
> 
> 
> This is informative.
> So many things that can go wrong that are just not of a visual nature


----------



## Sage

SaffronBandit said:


> He needed 500 feet to have barely survived this one. The nose is pitched up but the downward momentum was too great.


Yes exactly....He tried to do the loop at a bit lower altitude...

Also I did not see his afterburner on while pulling up ...

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## Irfan Baloch

C.W. Lemoine comments on the F-16 crash

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## Safriz

Power lines were hit at the last moment. Does that electrocute the pilot?
Actual picture from crash site.


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## kursed

Sir Nauman was flying from Sargodha to Islamabad for March 23rd practice runs.

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## Raider 21

kursed said:


> Sir Nauman was flying from Sargodha to Islamabad for March 23rd practice runs.


Yeah. And he was in his final days as an OC.

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## airomerix

Knuckles said:


> Yeah. And he was in his final days as an OC.



True. 

Flt Cmdr Ops is currently acting OC 9.


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## sneakerspark

DCS recreation of the unfortunate crash.

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## Defense Reader

اناللہ وانا الیہ راجعون 
Pak Army Mushak trainer Jet crashes near Gujrat as per news both Pilots martyrdom. 
؛


----------



## Apocalypse

Mushshak crash near Gujrat
Maj Umar and Lt. Faizan embraced Shahadat
May Allah grant them Jannah Ameen

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## mingle

Burāq OI said:


> Mushshak crash near Gujrat
> Maj Umar and Lt. Faizan embraced Shahadat
> May Allah grant them Jannah Ameen


From Gujranwala Rah wali Kent Airport it's PAA traing center.


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## KhanBaba2

Burāq OI said:


> Mushshak crash near Gujrat
> Maj Umar and Lt. Faizan embraced Shahadat
> May Allah grant them Jannah Ameen



RIP.

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## maithil

RIP. 

Crashes happening too often. SOP not being followed?


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## Yaseen1

crashes of Mushaq are very frequent ,we have to look in technical aspects of this jet and I think there is problem with this jet which needs to be fixed


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## fatman17

Jet?


Yaseen1 said:


> crashes of Mushaq are very frequent ,we have to look in technical aspects of this jet and I think there is problem with this jet which needs to be fixed

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## sneakerspark

Ina lil lahi wa ina alehe rajioun. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1249580316886474759
Aircraft appears to be out of control while gaining height. Not sure if it was taking off or what.


----------



## AMRAAM

RIP.
Why don't Pakistani pilots eject? The fatality rate is too high. Almost every crash takes the life of one ore 2 pilots. So sad.


----------



## NeonNinja

RIP


----------



## I S I

Rip. Another asset lost due to negligence of high ranking drunkards.


sneakerspark said:


> Ina lil lahi wa ina alehe rajioun.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1249580316886474759
> Aircraft appears to be out of control while gaining height. Not sure if it was taking off or what.


/r/killthecameraman


----------



## Tom_Cruise

Terrible loss. Irreplaceable.
RIP


----------



## PakShaheen79

Inna lillah hi wa inna alihe rajioon.

2 more lost. What will happen. Nothing. Statement will be issued about an inquiry and tomorrow this incident will be history.


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## WebMaster

Ejection and PAF....


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## Caprxl

Again.... 
إِنَّا لِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ‎,


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## Apocalypse

AMRAAM said:


> RIP.
> Why don't Pakistani pilots eject? The fatality rate is too high. Almost every crash takes the life of one ore 2 pilots. So sad.





WebMaster said:


> Ejection and PAF....


Mushshaks do not have ejection seats


----------



## Vortex

Very sad news.


*Inna lillah wa inna ilayhi raaji'uun*


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## Yasser76

sneakerspark said:


> Ina lil lahi wa ina alehe rajioun.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1249580316886474759
> Aircraft appears to be out of control while gaining height. Not sure if it was taking off or what.




Not PAF, Army. Ranks of dead tell you that


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## sneakerspark

Yasser76 said:


> Not PAF, Army. Ranks of dead tell you that


Ignore what's written in the tweet. I posted it just for the video.


----------



## Trailer23

I S I said:


> Rip. Another asset lost due to negligence of high ranking drunkards.


That's a uncalled for statement.

You, nor I know the reasons behind the demise of the plane or its occupants.


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## Kharral

Inna LILLAH e wa Inna ELLAIH e Raji’oon

The plane crashed over Chopala Village, Dist Gujrat.
Apparently Major Umar hailed from the same village.


----------



## ghazi52

No PR- 61/2020-ISPR
Rawalpindi - April 13, 2020

Pakistan Army training aircraft Mushshak on routine training mission crashed near Gujrat this morning. Both pilots Major Umer (Instructor Pilot) resident of Gujrat, and Lieutenant Faizan (Student Pilot) resident of Kalar Kahar, Chakwal embraced Shahadat.
Major Umer survived by wife.

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## alikazmi007

ghazi52 said:


> No PR- 61/2020-ISPR
> Rawalpindi - April 13, 2020
> 
> Pakistan Army training aircraft Mushshak on routine training mission crashed near Gujrat this morning. Both pilots Major Umer (Instructor Pilot) resident of Gujrat, and Lieutenant Faizan (Student Pilot) resident of Kalar Kahar, Chakwal embraced Shahadat.
> Major Umer survived by wife.

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## Bossman

A training flight out of Gujrawala. A few corrections to what has been reported. Army Aviation and PAF. Not a jet but propeller driven light aircraft. No ejection seats. Most probably pilot error.


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## Sunny4pak

RIP to the Crew Members.


----------



## Adam_Khan

AMRAAM said:


> RIP.
> Why don't Pakistani pilots eject? The fatality rate is too high. Almost every crash takes the life of one ore 2 pilots. So sad.





Bossman said:


> A training flight out of Gujrawala. A few corrections to what has been reported. Army Aviation and PAF. Not a jet but propeller driven light aircraft. No ejection seats. Most probably pilot error.



What makes you think it's pilot error?


----------



## GriffinsRule

Could be any number of reasons for the crash. PAA hasn't upgraded their Mushshaks to the new Super Mushshak standard nor with the glass cockpits I believe.
I wonder what the glide profile is for the Mushshak if it loses power. Either way, sad loss for the nation and their families.


----------



## MastanKhan

Kharral said:


> Inna LILLAH e wa Inna ELLAIH e Raji’oon
> 
> The plane crashed over Chopala Village, Dist Gujrat.
> Apparently Major Umar hailed from the same village.



Hi,

Looks like the aircraft was intact till the last moment till it hit an obstruction---. The visible damage in picture 4 leads to that assessment---.

Now guys don't get mad at me---.

None of you have apologized my assessment about W/C Nauman---till the white GUY mentioned the same---altitude altitude altitude---. Now all of you morons are squirming yet none has the audacity to say " I am sorry "---.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Looks like the aircraft was intact till the last moment till it hit an obstruction---. The visible damage in picture 4 leads to that assessment---.
> 
> Now guys don't get mad at me---.
> *
> None of you have apologized my assessment about W/C Nauman---till the white GUY mentioned the same---altitude altitude altitude---. Now all of you morons are squirming yet none has the audacity to say " I am sorry "---.*


I think most agreed with you on that, even with the USAF/USN guy. But a lot were shocked by the insulting comments you had about the pilot showboating. Nobody should apologise to you for that if you're trying to market your own justification. Ask for apologies elsewhere, no need for that here. Just some advice.

Cheers !!!

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## Kharral

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Looks like the aircraft was intact till the last moment till it hit an obstruction---. The visible damage in picture 4 leads to that assessment---.
> 
> Now guys don't get mad at me---.
> 
> None of you have apologized my assessment about W/C Nauman---till the white GUY mentioned the same---altitude altitude altitude---. Now all of you morons are squirming yet none has the audacity to say " I am sorry "---.



Yes, the plane does look intact.
I am no expert so I could probably be wrong, but judging from these photos I think it was a case of not enough altitude to land the aircraft properly. That is when the engine stalled or whatever happened the Plane wasn’t high enough to manoeuvre & get it to land on to the pathway that is visible in the photos. 

For me the most touching part of this tragedy is the fact that the Major lost his life over his own village. In a way it’s a perfect way to depart, but at the same time it’s equally tragic as well.


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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> I think most agreed with you on that, even with the USAF/USN guy. But a lot were shocked by the insulting comments you had about the pilot showboating. Nobody should apologise to you for that if you're trying to market your own justification. Ask for apologies elsewhere, no need for that here. Just some advice.
> Cheers !!!



Hi,

Those comments came after posters started insulting me---. But I was not off target---.

Sadly the pilot has passed away---.


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## Jammer

May the pilots rest in peace.
Regarding someone thumping their chest for pointing out the fact that WC Nauman's aircraft crash was due to altitude, it has categorically got to be the dumbest f@%&ng shit I have ever heard. Its like saying the person drowned and the cause was water. Just idiotic!
No body has to apologize to anybody for speaking like a d#@b arse. Copy?


----------



## MastanKhan

Kharral said:


> Yes, the plane does look intact.
> I am no expert so I could probably be wrong, but judging from these photos I think it was a case of not enough altitude to land the aircraft properly. That is when the engine stalled or whatever happened the Plane wasn’t high enough to manoeuvre & get it to land on to the pathway that is visible in the photos.
> 
> For me the most touching part of this tragedy is the fact that the Major lost his life over his own village. In a way it’s a perfect way to depart, but at the same time it’s equally tragic as well.



Hi,

Looks like the plane came down OK--landed okay---but almost at the end it hit the thick brush and dirt mound---while the front of the aircraft came to a stop---the rear of the plane was still moving forward and you can see in crush crumble and fold in the middle---.

One of the owners at the dealerships that I worked at died in a similar manner---not in an aircraft but in a DUNE BUGGY---.

Him and a colleague were travelling at a high speed in desert---the dune buggy had a V8 engine in it----the front of the buggy went into a dip and hit the dirt at pretty high speed---the front of the buggy stopped---but the momentum carried the engine in the back forward---the frame could not take the crushing force of the forward motion of the V8 engine---it crumbled and folded forward---the back of the frame came forward and decapitated the owner and crushed the other person---.

Here is what happens in a first second of a crash---

" The car and everything inside are going at the speed of the vehicle, for the purposes of demonstration we will pick 35 mph. The front bumper strikes a tree and begins to deform. The front center of the car slows to 0 mph; the rest of the car and its occupants continue moving forward at 35 mph.

In the second tenth of a second: The bumper continues to deform as the energy of the crash is being dissipated, the radiator and fan begin to crush, the engine and frame strike the tree and begin to decelerate.

In the third tenth of a second: The frame and body of the car continue to deform, the passenger compartment, front dash and windshield have decelerated to 20 mph. The car’s passengers are still traveling forward at 35 mph.

In the fourth tenth of a second: The frame of the car decelerates to 20 mph and continues to dissipate the energy of the crash. The safety belts and passengers continue forward at 35 mph.

In the fifth tenth of a second: The safety belts begin to deform by stretching to decelerate the passenger in a comparatively gentle manner. Occupants decelerate to 25 mph, the car frame has decelerated to 15 mph. Unbelted occupants continue forward at 35 mph. Loose objects from the back seat and deck continue forward at 35 mph.

The sixth tenth of a second: The safety belts have reached their deformation limits. Belted occupants decelerate to 10 mph, the dashboard and windshield decelerate to 0 mph. The car body, frame and engine continue to absorb the energy from the crash. Unbelted occupants continue forward to strike the dashboard, steering column and windshield at 35 mph. Loose objects from the rear seat and deck come flying forward to strike the front seat passengers at 35 mph. The unsecured objects in the back of the vehicle could strike with enough energy to cause injury or death.

In the seventh tenth of a second: The frame and body have finished deforming and rebound in the opposite direction (reaction to the crash action); the belted occupants rebound from the safety belts, their heads continue back to come into contact with the head restraints. Unbelted occupants reach 0 mph by striking the windshield, steering column and dashboard, they deform and crush. Their internal organs, still going 35 mph, strike their rapidly decelerating body frames ".



Jammer said:


> May the pilots rest in peace.
> Regarding someone thumping their chest for pointing out the fact that WC Nauman's aircraft crash was due to altitude, it has categorically got to be the dumbest f@%&ng shit I have ever heard. Its like saying the person drowned and the cause was water. Just idiotic!
> No body has to apologize to anybody for speaking like a d#@b arse. Copy?



You are the dumbest one there is---if you don't know the PHYSICS of the accident then better shut up---.

Exactly a similar accident happened in the past to an F16 in the US---.

So---either put up or shut up---.

I can go in more detail---but then you guys will be screaming murder---.

If you have the courage to read---then I will write the complete analogy of the accident and the frame of mind of the pilot---and I will hear your screams here in the US from pakistan---.

Do you have the guts to hear the truth---?

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## WebMaster

Avoid personal attacks guy. thanks!

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Here is the video of the F16 crash where the pilot mis-calculated the altitude---.

Another interesting item---a poster once asked about ejection phenomenon.

Here you will see the explosive at the base of the canopy frame blowing the canopy off the aircraft and then the pilot ejecting with his seat






and here is another video of an F18 crashing and the canopy being blown off by the explosives in place---


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## Jammer




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## Basel

Are these type of crash happen often?? Here is EFT crash very similar to F-16.






Did PAF have went through these kind of incidents??


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## PDF

Basel said:


> Did PAF have went through these kind of incidents??


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-brilliant-capabilities-of-paf-engineers.546900/

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## khanasifm

Basel said:


> Are these type of crash happen often?? Here is EFT crash very similar to F-16.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did PAF have went through these kind of incidents??




Possible not sure but usually there is cartridge that is fired to push down the load further Inside the pylons to release

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## GriffinsRule

Looks like the Mushshak performed a victory roll before the crash and the aerobatic maneuver could have been the contributing factor for the resulting crash. That it was performed over the IPs village as mentioned earlier sheds some color on why the pilot chose to do it perhaps.

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## mig25

It looks like the angle of attack was too high to sustain lift. The only thing left to survive this before the aircraft goes into an unrecoverable spin is to point the nose down and increase speed. I can see that happening also. Alas, not enough altitude to recover. Looks like pilot error.


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## Adam_Khan

GriffinsRule said:


> Looks like the Mushshak performed a victory roll before the crash and the aerobatic maneuver could have been the contributing factor for the resulting crash. That it was performed over the IPs village as mentioned earlier sheds some color on why the pilot chose to do it perhaps.



Yes and he paid the price of such a maneuvere with his life.

There is a book about history of Pakistan army aviation which also info about majority of the air crashes,sadly quite a few planes in the past have crashed because of such maneuvers with loss of life.

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## araz

Defense Reader said:


> On social media pics circulating on more Mushak traing aircraft crashes near Gujranwala Allah khair kary ameen


Kya Mashaq ko bhi Corona virus lag gaya? Allah khair karay.
A


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## airomerix

Magazine "Second to none"

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## Adam_Khan

Sadly another life lost due to showboating. He clearly performed an unauthorised maneuver at very low altitude and paid the prize with his life for it.





__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Sincere007

airomerix said:


> Magazine "Second to none"
> 
> View attachment 628906


Beautiful cover picture... 
Nouman akram incident made mark in my head... I couldn't let it go... Recently I saw video where lady posted transcript of Nauman and ground control in his last unfortunate moments... According to transcript ground controller kept repeating for eject but Nauman answered that he need to avoid populated area... Right now I have two doubts or two questions if someone can kindly answer them.
1st question is that, if this transcript is real?
2nd thing she said in video that last year coas took flight with Nauman and this year coas had same plan... So it looks like it's pre-planned by raw.
If transcript is real then it's clear there is no pilot error no Glock no altitude error... Except it's total mechanical error or bird strike.

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## airomerix

Sincere007 said:


> Beautiful cover picture...
> Nouman akram incident made mark in my head... I couldn't let it go... Recently I saw video where lady posted transcript of Nauman and ground control in his last unfortunate moments... According to transcript ground controller kept repeating for eject but Nauman answered that he need to avoid populated area... Right now I have two doubts or two questions if someone can kindly answer them.
> 1st question is that, if this transcript is real?



It's not real



> 2nd thing she said in video that last year coas took flight with Nauman and this year coas had same plan... So it looks like it's pre-planned by raw.
> If transcript is real then it's clear there is no pilot error no Glock no altitude error... Except it's total mechanical error or bird strike.



A highly unlikely scenario. An investigation is underway. The results will be out soon hopefully.

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## litman

4 PAF crashes in 3 months, 1 army air craft lost and 1 PIA jet lost. 3 paf pilots, 2 army aviators shaheed and 99 lives lost in PIA accident and we have not even completed 06 months in 2020. if you call it satisfactory its your choice but the world doesnt seem to agree. on any international forum like bbc , aljaeera or saudi news whenever you see a news regarding the aviation related accidents in pakistan one sentence is common every where" pakistan has a checkered aviation safety record" and they give a list of the losses of PAF, PA and CA. we operate mostly obsolete jets , pilot errors are frequent (f-16 crash and the recent PIA crash both were the experienced pilots),psyche of "juggar lagana" exists in aviation and SOPs are breached . and if we accept the argument of the member here that PAF pilots are directly going to F 7s and mirages directly from K8 leading to increased crashes then its again fault of the PAF policy makers. but i think there is a need to compare the data of the crashes of F7s and mirages before and after the deinduction of FT5. i dont think its very significant. the mirages and F7s are simply obsolete but we have to fly them as we dont have any other option. so in my opinion we cant deny the fact that air crashes are vry frequent in PAF, PA and CA and the reasons are:
obsolete air crafts.
corruption in the system as AM shahid masood himself admitted few years back in an interview that "merit"has a taken a hit.
lack of resources to maintain the current fleet.
training of aviators and engineers as there are evidences that SOPs are breached often.

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## litman

this is what the world thinks about pakistan aviation (militay and civial aviation)
_"Pakistan has a checkered military and civilian aviation safety record, with frequent plane and helicopter crashes over the years.

Wednesday's incident comes just months after a fighter jet crashed during a training mission near Mianwali in Punjab province, killing both pilots.

In July last year at least 18 people were killed when a small army plane crashed in Rawalpindi.

And in 2016, a Pakistan International Airlines plane burst into flames after one of its two turboprop engines failed while flying from remote northern Pakistan to Islamabad, killing more than 40 people."
https://saudigazette.com.sa/article...s-in-Pakistan-capital-during-parade-rehearsal
"Pakistan has a chequered military and civilian aviation safety record, with frequent plane and helicopter crashes over the years."
https://www.dw.com/en/pakistani-passenger-jet-crashes-near-karachi-airport/a-53531686_
"
*"What is Pakistan's safety record like?*
_Pakistan has a chequered aviation safety record, including a number of airliner crashes.

In 2010, an aircraft operated by private airline Airblue crashed near Islamabad, killing all 152 people on board - the deadliest air disaster in Pakistani history.

In 2012, a Boeing 737-200 operated by Pakistan's Bhoja Air crashed in bad weather on its approach to land in Rawalpindi, killing all 121 passengers and six crew.

And in 2016, a Pakistan International Airlines plane burst into flames while travelling from northern Pakistan to Islamabad, killing 47 people."
_"
_"Pakistan has a chequered aviation safety record, including a number of airliner crashes.

Last year a small military plane crashed into a residential area near Rawalpindi, which neighbours Islamabad. At least 18 people were killed and several injured ."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51831319_

this is the world opinion. we are acting like indians here. they kept on ranting about the F-16 crash and christine fair openly said that it doesnt matter what you believe. the thing that matters is what the world believes and they believe that there was no F-16 shot down. so it doesnt matter that we keep on saying that our safety and maintenance is best the thing that matters is what the world believes with the undeniable facts.

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## Raider 21

Jammer said:


> May the pilots rest in peace.
> Regarding someone thumping their chest for pointing out the fact that WC Nauman's aircraft crash was due to altitude, it has categorically got to be the dumbest f@%&ng shit I have ever heard. Its like saying the person drowned and the cause was water. Just idiotic!
> No body has to apologize to anybody for speaking like a d#@b arse. Copy?


But it very much does point out to low altitude. He made a mistake and paid the price for it, with a slight margin to eject as well. Personally it may have costed him his career, but had he ejected he would have come home to his family, his service and country. That's all that matters. It is terrible to see the base car pull up to a pilot's house with senior personnel to tell the news. And even more horrific to those who empty out their lockers.

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## Jammer

Knuckles said:


> But it very much does point out to low altitude. He made a mistake and paid the price for it, with a slight margin to eject as well. Personally it may have costed him his career, but had he ejected he would have come home to his family, his service and country. That's all that matters. It is terrible to see the base car pull up to a pilot's house with senior personnel to tell the news. And even more horrific to those who empty out their lockers.


I think you are missing the point, the point is that altitude is absolutely the issue, it is obvious, very, very , obvious. It is childish to point it out as a eureka discovery (not talking about you here), Ray Charles can see that for God's sake. Let us let him rest in peace.


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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> *It's not real*
> 
> 
> 
> A highly unlikely scenario. An investigation is underway. The results will be out soon hopefully.


It was beyond unreal. A 15 second convo for a 5 second descent. A bit of Bollywood spice thrown into it.



Jammer said:


> I think you are missing the point, the point is that altitude is absolutely the issue, it is obvious, very, very , obvious. It is childish to point it out as a eureka discovery (not talking about you here), Ray Charles can see that for God's sake. Let us let him rest in peace.






Here is an interesting account of an experienced pilot killed while flying low level. I like how they release investigative reports, irrespective of who or what was at fault.

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## khanasifm

airomerix said:


> It's not real
> 
> 
> 
> A highly unlikely scenario. An investigation is underway. The results will be out soon hopefully.


Paf has never publicly disclosed any investigation unofficially it will be but it’s mostly likely what already know. 
End of story

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## GriffinsRule

Knuckles said:


> It was beyond unreal. A 15 second convo for a 5 second descent. A bit of Bollywood spice thrown into it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an interesting account of an experienced pilot killed while flying low level. I like how they release investigative reports, irrespective of who or what was at fault.


If this was a PAF accidents, some members here would say he was showing off for the camera, was full of himself, didn't eject because he wanted his family to get benefits, was not a good pilot ... and whatever else would come to their mind.

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## TsAr

GriffinsRule said:


> If this was a PAF accidents, some members here would say he was showing off for the camera, was full of himself, didn't eject because he wanted his family to get benefits, was not a good pilot ... and whatever else would come to their mind.


What people don't understand is that these accidents happen very quickly, the pilot has a split second to make a decision, i dont know how you can think about your family and benefits etc in that time period

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## Jammer

Knuckles said:


> It was beyond unreal. A 15 second convo for a 5 second descent. A bit of Bollywood spice thrown into it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an interesting account of an experienced pilot killed while flying low level. I like how they release investigative reports, irrespective of who or what was at fault.



Countless pilots have lost there lives for one reason or the other, whether self induced error or otherwise, it happens. As Mr. Griffin has eluded, mistakes or errors in fighter flying have an exponentially cumulative trajectory, i.e. something goes bad the next linked problem is going to join the party pretty fast. Can happen to anyone.
Some still wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat having relived a near miss . 
Remember altitude good, ground bad!


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## Safriz

Please don't revive this thread unnecessarily.
Gives a mini heart attack to many of us , if we see this thread in the list of threads with a new post.

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## Raider 21

Jammer said:


> Countless pilots have lost there lives for one reason or the other, whether self induced error or otherwise, it happens. As Mr. Griffin has eluded, mistakes or errors in fighter flying have an exponentially cumulative trajectory, i.e. something goes bad the next linked problem is going to join the party pretty fast. Can happen to anyone.
> Some still wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat having relived a near miss .
> Remember altitude good, ground bad!


I'm aware of those cold sweats. Been through some near misses. As a Viper test pilot told me, stick down and stick up can have the houses looking bigger no matter what orientation you're in.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you---altitude altitude altitude---it is always the altitude nd 1/4 of the people die by drowning in water as shallow as two to three feet in a flowing river---.
> 
> https://www.nbc12.com/story/15275723/sunni-shallow-drowning/
> 
> Knowledge and information about air craft accidents is not a myth anymore---. Those who are well informed and well versed can understand the cause if the accident by looking at the given scenarios---and hardly any expert is wrong about the assessment being made before the release of the official report---.
> 
> Why---because the aircraft have become extremely safe to fly over the decade---and accidents happen when the basics of maintenance are not met by the technicians or the basics of flight are not met by the pilots---and in design flaws---like in the 737 MAX---the manufacturer opts not to install a seond fail safe sensor---or in the Air France accident---the pilots are too casual to get the Captain take charge right away and the captain is also too casual to step in and the junior pilot is pulling on the control to lift the nose up till they crash into the ocean due to a stall---.
> 
> In a similar manner---the PIA airbus crash---nothing un-predictable about the crash---no reason to set hope high for the actual official report---when the behavior of the pilots is clearly visible from the recordings of the conversation with the air controller---.
> 
> And same with W/C Nauman---.
> 
> It is always the basics of flight adherence when they are neglected by the experienced pilots---result is catastrophic disasters---.
> 
> Has not changed over the years and will never change over a period of history---.
> 
> You never do aerobatics in a mixed terrain---it is always a NO NO---even if you do---you basic minimum is above the tallest land mark in the area.
> 
> Now for the PIA airbus crash---I think they were fasting---and the most crucial part---they had their COVID NOSE MASKS on---.
> 
> They were starving for oxygen---.
> 
> It happened to me about a month ago---at work---I am usual taking down customer information and made multiple serious errors---they were in my mind but I never asked the questions and filled up the irght information---.
> 
> I got called three times by the secretary to correct three blunders---I was literally shocked as to why I did it and I had it in my mind to ask but could not---.
> 
> Then a couple of days later my wife says to me---your nose mask is very thick---you could get oxygen starved---and then I realized that I was oxygen starved---because there was a lots of confusion and a lack of direction---.
> 
> Listening to the pilot and and tower conversation---the too casual of the pilot behaviour suggests that they may be oxygen starved---because their answers were emotionless right to the end---like being too lazy---not being able to make a decision---taking the easy way out---not understanding the warning chimes noise in the cockpit---and not reacting to it---.
> 
> I am definite that it was oxygen starvation because they had their covid masks on and they were fasting as well---.


Nope. No oxygen issue. This was a little silly on the way you tried to reason it with the oxygen issue. A320s don't lose pressurization that quickly, no matter which covid kits and masks they had on it was not oxygen deprivation. Fasting has a high possibility on fatigue, but the coordinated aircrew's decision to approach at 210 kts and touch down around 190 kts was very absurd.

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## Invictus.inc

mods to please intervene 
this thread is solely reserved as an alert to an aircraft crash
any discussion on the cause of the crash to be discussed on other threads

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## Counter-Errorist

@MastanKhan @Knuckles 
Kindly continue the discussion in the original thread. This thread bumping up causes anxiety.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pia-...with-93-on-board.667671/page-65#post-12404501

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## Jammer

I vote to temporarily shut this thread, the conspiracy theories and extrapolations are getting quite ridiculous. Apologies, I might have been part responsible for encouraging these tangential "tales". If not then I am out of this chain of thought, life's too short and blood pressure too high.

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## ziaulislam

whats going on in this thread


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## Amavous

No clarity on the type of aircraft yet. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1305766182788780032

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1305746424047587330

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1305744302358880256

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## SD 10

Aryeih Leib said:


> Some of Twitter handles are claiming that it was Jeff


Calm down indian!

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## Bonito Boy

Amavous said:


> No clarity on the type of aircraft yet. As per ARY 2 Pilots ejected safely
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1305742379358584832
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1305746424047587330
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1305744302358880256




isn't this picture belongs to Feb-20 Crash?


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## khansaheeb

One way of getting a new JF17.


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## Tomcats

The first image(unsure about 2nd) is from the Feb-20 Crash near Shorkot. As of this moment there is no images yet.

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## devil thunder 302

Guys these pics are from shorkot crash dont rely on these pics and speculate which A/C is this


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## devil thunder 302

KAI KAI Baloch said:


> second image looks like jf17 from number 14 sqd tail choppers


bro these pics are old from shorkot accident

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## KAI KAI Baloch

as per my source, it was a bird hit....


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## Fighting Falcon 01

I hope it's not an F16 but an f7


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## KAI KAI Baloch

devil thunder 302 said:


> bro these pics are old from shorkot accident


Bro last i checked there was no thunder crash in shorkot.... or i may be wrong


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## Cuirassier

Pindigheb is near Attock. Fear this could be a JFT; Bravo if two pilots ejected.


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## Tomcats

I cannot find any info on the second picture of the tail piece so it could *possibly* be from the current crash. If so then it is remarkably similar to the JF-17 tail when compared to an image of it and an F-7 side by side.


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## Bonito Boy

KAI KAI Baloch said:


> as per my source, it was a bird hit....



And which type of AC was, according to your Source, please.

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## kursed

Just confirmed. It's a JF-17 crash.

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## kursed

And not a Bravo.

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## Fighting Falcon 01

kursed said:


> Just confirmed. It's a JF-17 crash.


How did two pilots eject then ?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

It's great that the pilot has safely ejected...

Machines, that too indigenous, can be replaced with even better machines, but souls can't...

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## kursed

Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> How did two pilots eject then ?


One pilot. A model. And safe ejection.

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## Amavous

kursed said:


> Just confirmed. It's a JF-17 crash.



I was fearing that, as PAF officials were using vague terms which is never a good sign. 2020 turning out to be a bad bad year for aircraft safety.

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## Bonito Boy

kursed said:


> Just confirmed. It's a JF-17 crash.



So SAD,  however, whatever the type of aircraft, the damage has been done to Pakistan, but thanks to Almighty Allah, no casualties were reported and the pilot is safe.

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## Cuirassier

Relieved that the pilot is safe. Hasn't been a nice year.


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## SSG_Commando

I heard it is F7-PG


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1305748221357162496


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## Bonito Boy

Another Thunder crashed today near Pindigheb. However, the pilot ejected safely.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-aircraft-crashed-near-pindigheb-pilot-ejected-safely.684727/

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## Tomcats

Another picture. Source: Natsecjeff twitter.

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## Marker

If the crashed plane is JF-17,then there is a possibility that the crashed plane was on test flight and flown from PAC Kamra.

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## Cuirassier

Issam said:


> View attachment 669966
> 
> Another picture.


mid-air disintegration? could be a bird hit.


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## fatman17

F7PG crash due to bird hit


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## Bonito Boy

fatman17 said:


> F7PG crash due to bird hit



Whatever the type of aircraft was, the damage has been done to Pakistan, but thanks to Almighty Allah, no casualties were reported and the pilot is safe.

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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> F7PG crash due to bird hit



Negative sir, 
Its JFT from Tail Choppers Sqn.
Pilot Ejected Safely.

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## Bonito Boy

We used to make fun of India when their planes crashed (mostly in last year), maybe this (arrogant) thing is disliked by Allah, we should seek forgiveness from Allah. 😔

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## Saahir Malik

It is so sad,not have been good year for aviation ...thank god pilot ejected safely

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## devil thunder 302

Issam said:


> I cannot find any info on the second picture of the tail piece so it could *possibly* be from the current crash. If so then it is remarkably similar to the JF-17 tail when compared to an image of it and an F-7 side by side.


yup second pic tail is definitely of a jf 17


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## SecularNationalist



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## KAI KAI Baloch

KAI KAI Baloch said:


> Bro last i checked there was no thunder crash in shorkot.... or i may be wrong





Bonito Boy said:


> And which type of AC was, according to your Source, please.


jf17


----------



## Amavous

Which Block of JFT "Tail Choppers" are flying. Block-I or Block-II ?


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## Marker

Issam said:


> View attachment 669966
> 
> Another picture. Source: Natsecjeff twitter.


If this is the crash site, than the aircraft is painted and flag is also visible on the tail. This aircraft is not from PAC.


----------



## The Accountant

Bonito Boy said:


> We used to make fun of India when their planes crashed (mostly in last year), maybe this (arrogant) thing is disliked by Allah, we should seek forgiveness from Allah. 😔


So how you have 12 post in last 4 years?

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## Bonito Boy

Amavous said:


> Which Block of JFT "Tail Choppers" are flying. Block-I or Block-II ?



B-IIs


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## TNT

Sad incident but cant do much with bird hits. Good thing is pilot is safe.


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## Boomin' Bomber I.J.

Amavous said:


> I was fearing that, as PAF officials were using vague terms which is never a good sign. 2020 turning out to be a bad bad year for aircraft safety.



It's been a bad year for everything and everyone around the world. Alhamdulillah, the pilot is safe.

Air force crashes are, more or less, a routine affair because men and machines are often tested to the limits.

Let's learn to thank God for what is left rather than mourn that is lost.

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## Bonito Boy

The Accountant said:


> So how you have 12 post in last 4 years?




During this time I have spent most of my time on PDF as a silent reader

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## hussain0216

It happens

The pilot is safe, that's all that matters

Analyse why crash happen, ensure all safety procedures were carried out, replace plane and move on

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## Ali_Baba

Military Planes crash from time to time. That is a reality of life. Thankfully the pilot is safe, and the plane can be replaced without restrictions unlike the F16s that PAF operates.

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## Irfan Baloch

Dawn news moderation tool is helpless against usual Indian Indian trolling
As expected. The internet hindus swarm on such news and spam the comments section.
Sometimes no Pakistani post is selected. I stopped trying to get my commenting years ago since only once my comment was posted about 6 or 7 years ago. 
I am not suggesting dawn is more pro India or censors any post that is pro Pak military but their moderation tool or criteria is dysfunctional.

Check out the snide comments selected by dawn.com











Pakistan’s efforts made Afghan talks possible, says Bajwa


Credits Imran for facilitating Doha dialogue.



www.dawn.com

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## Jammer

Pilot is safe and no ground casualties, thank God! Unfortunately such things happen.


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## The Accountant

Is it confirm it was a thunder?


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## Tamiyah

The Accountant said:


> Is it confirm it was a thunder?


Nope. Senior journalists are saying that it was F-7P. I dunno what happened. My sources deny to claim anything so far.


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## Imran Khan

The aircraft was PAF No. 14 "Tail Choppers" Squadron JF-17 Thunder. The squadron is based at PAF Base Minhas, Kamra, Attock.

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## ARMalik

That wreckage looks more like F-7 not JF-17. Every JF-17 has number written under the flag, whereas F-7s don't.

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## JonAsad

ARMalik said:


> That wreckage looks more like F-7 not JF-17. Every JF-17 has number written under the flag, whereas F-7s don't.
> 
> View attachment 670054


i think it is jf-17, the rudder is a big give away -


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## Pandora

ARMalik said:


> That wreckage looks more like F-7 not JF-17. Every JF-17 has number written under the flag, whereas F-7s don't.
> 
> View attachment 670054



Thunders are the only ones with straight stabilizers. The pic shared above is showing a thunder but if it is a latest pic that remains to be seen.


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## ARMalik

Well I guess only time will tell what aircraft it was.


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## AMRAAM

Marker said:


> If the crashed plane is JF-17,then there is a possibility that the crashed plane was on test flight and flown from PAC Kamra.



This makes sense. It could be one of those newly built ACs undergoing testing.


----------



## Sohail Niazai

Pandora said:


> Thunders are the only ones with straight stabilizers. The pic shared above is showing a thunder but if it is a latest pic that remains to be seen.


This should be the latest picture because JF17 were inducted in "Tail Choppers" in 2017. and last crash of JF17 on land was back in 2011.


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## PakFactor

Seems JF-17 from the stabilizer and rudder.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

ARMalik said:


> That wreckage looks more like F-7 not JF-17. Every JF-17 has number written under the flag, whereas F-7s don't.
> 
> View attachment 670054


No. The back of the vertical stabilizer is completely vertical in a JF-17, and seems to be the same in the picture of the crash. Number could be missing as it might not have been assigned to a squadron yet or simply not painted on yet.


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## volatile

Lets hope PAF discloses what crashed unlike last JF17 crashed our Arabian sea it was pure silence and in the end people realizes that it was a thunder . Indeed a sad incident


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Who came to the conclusion it's from the 14 squadron, last I checked the 16 squadron was also colocated at Kamra.
What SAR squadron operates in the region tho? Because if it's using the AW139, it means another squadron has also transitioned on to it.


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## ABBASIA

Jf-17 by wreckage and total count of down aircrafts now is 3


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## The Accountant

Imran Khan said:


> The aircraft was PAF No. 14 "Tail Choppers" Squadron JF-17 Thunder. The squadron is based at PAF Base Minhas, Kamra, Attock.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 670051


Probably you are right. This is near minhas air base and only thunders are operating from minhas air base. So uptill now three crashes of thunder out of which atleast 2 are from engine failure. One was over the Arabian sea and this was on the road. Good thing is pilots are safe opposed to accidents of mirages and f7s. Apparently thunder has a much better ejection system.

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## The Eagle

Thunders have excellent flight safety record given the thousands of hours flying. Secondly, PAF will surely look into every aspect and learn from the incident. We might not read everything in public domain. Initially, it is a bird hit. Given the number of hours flown and air frames age; incidents can happen and happens in real world where professional force learn from the incidents and raise the bar of quality. There are machines that will be replaced by the time and crash is not something that one can guarantee as will never happen. However, the mentality is to take care of every aspect and maintain the fleet with high quality for which, PAF has own place among other air forces. Bird hit is an unfortunate thing that one can only pray in such case. Above all, no loss of life or any damage on the ground. Alhamdulillah.

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## Arsalan 345

Looks like jf-17 tail choppers with no number assigned.probably mechanical failure or bird strike.


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## PanzerKiel

The Accountant said:


> Probably you are right. This is near minhas air base and only thunders are operating from minhas air base. So uptill now three crashes of thunder out of which atleast 2 are from engine failure. One was over the Arabian sea and this was on the road. Good thing is pilots are safe opposed to accidents of mirages and f7s. Apparently thunder has a much better ejection system.


The Arabian Sea Thunder was a case of CFIT.

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## truthfollower

why jets cant land after bird engine hit? Not enough momentum to land safely?


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## truthfollower

PanzerKiel said:


> The Arabian Sea Thunder was a case of CFIT.


CFIT?

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## arjunk

Thunders can be replaced, the pilot cannot neither can a foreign jet like the F-16. Hopefully a block 1 only.


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## PanzerKiel

truthfollower said:


> CFIT?


Controlled Flight Into Terrain 

an accident in which an airworthy aircraft, under pilot control, is unintentionally flown into the ground, a mountain, a body of water or an obstacle

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## The Accountant

PanzerKiel said:


> The Arabian Sea Thunder was a case of CFIT.


Seems strange. Given your experience how CFIT could occur at sea. As per my understanding it happens during landing in extreme weather.

If I am right first crash was also associated with block 1 wing structural limit. Wing got broken when going for extreme maneuver. It got fixed in block 2 and subsequent MLU.

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## PanzerKiel

The Accountant said:


> Seems strange. Given your experience how CFIT could occur at sea. As per my understanding it happens during landing in extreme weather.
> 
> If I am right first crash was also associated with block 1 wing structural limit. Wing got broken when going for extreme maneuver. It got fixed in block 2 and subsequent MLU.


... You can imagine night time, with the border line between sea and sky not clear at horizon. 

Same is the case in bad weather as well....

Point is, the pilot becomes unsure of his aircraft position relative to ground..... 

Pilots are therefore trained to trust their instruments at all costs in such conditions. But then, you pay the price if you don't. 

I still remember, that JF17 over Arabian Sea, was flying normally, but once it crashed, the altitude loss rate was horrendous enough..... thousands of feet in a few seconds, almost went nose down.... 

No may day call, nothing.

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## PanzerKiel

PanzerKiel said:


> ... You can imagine night time, with the border line between sea and sky not clear at horizon.
> 
> Same is the case in bad weather as well....
> 
> Point is, the pilot becomes unsure of his aircraft position relative to ground.....
> 
> Pilots are therefore trained to trust their instruments at all costs in such conditions. But then, you pay the price if you don't.
> 
> I still remember, that JF17 over Arabian Sea, was flying normally, but once it crashed, the altitude loss rate was horrendous enough..... thousands of feet in a few seconds, almost went nose down....
> 
> No may day call, nothing.


... And you can also imagine.... 

Clear night sky, full of stars with big moon..... That's in the sky, but then you see the same image in the sea, below the horizon as well.... 

So what you see is, stars all around you, two moons..... No horizon visible to naked eye..... That's where you've got to trust your instruments.

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## fatman17

Air crashes happen. Part and parcel of the business. Cannot get emotional about it and ignore the comments from the east.

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## The Accountant

PanzerKiel said:


> ... And you can also imagine....
> 
> Clear night sky, full of stars with big moon..... That's in the sky, but then you see the same image in the sea, below the horizon as well....
> 
> So what you see is, stars all around you, two moons..... No horizon visible to naked eye..... That's where you've got to trust your instruments.


So pilot didn't survived or did he ?

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## PanzerKiel

The Accountant said:


> So pilot didn't survived or did he ?


Couldn't.... 





It happened in High Mark 2016.... 

Overall


Casualties in "High" Mark 2016 -

1 F-7PG aircraft - Fl. Lt. Omer Shahzad dead
1 JF17 aircraft - Sqn Ldr Rizwan dead
1 GIDS Shahpar UAV crash

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## Windjammer

The aircraft that crashed appeared in a video recently.

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## Arsalan 345

PanzerKiel said:


> ... And you can also imagine....
> 
> Clear night sky, full of stars with big moon..... That's in the sky, but then you see the same image in the sea, below the horizon as well....
> 
> So what you see is, stars all around you, two moons..... No horizon visible to naked eye..... That's where you've got to trust your instruments.


Lots of passenger planes also destroyed because of spatial disorientation. We can replace machines but not the pilots. Thank God pilot is safe.

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## Ghost 125

PanzerKiel said:


> ... You can imagine night time, with the border line between sea and sky not clear at horizon.
> 
> Same is the case in bad weather as well....
> 
> Point is, the pilot becomes unsure of his aircraft position relative to ground.....
> 
> Pilots are therefore trained to trust their instruments at all costs in such conditions. But then, you pay the price if you don't.
> 
> I still remember, that JF17 over Arabian Sea, was flying normally, but once it crashed, the altitude loss rate was horrendous enough..... thousands of feet in a few seconds, almost went nose down....
> 
> No may day call, nothing.


more chances of this happening at sea...same happened to French rafale few years back.

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## Windjammer

truthfollower said:


> CFIT?


It's also called pilot disorientation.....in this case the aircraft was some 80 miles out over the sea in pitch darkness, no features to distinguish between sea and sky.

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## Windjammer

*In today's crash, the pilot was able to walk up to the Rescue Helicopter with his belongings.*

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## Green Angel

Bonito Boy said:


> We used to make fun of India when their planes crashed (mostly in last year), maybe this (arrogant) thing is disliked by Allah, we should seek forgiveness from Allah. 😔


We must seek forgiveness from Allah,but when Indian Fighter jet Crashes then we feel lovely.....

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## Deino

ARMalik said:


> Well I guess only time will tell what aircraft it was.



Nope ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1305836669812092930

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## PDF

Seems PAF also started training for ejection. (Ouch, that must hurt...I can only imagine the trolling we used to do to IAF). [Stated on a lighter note]
But, glad pilot is safe. Proves PAF is just like any other airforce and vulnerable to accidents. No Air force who flies as much as PAF and in the manner PAF flies can be safe from accidents. Excellency comes at a great cost. But sometimes, you are forced by your situation to be at such a risky position.

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## Blacklight

Dr. Abdul Basit said:


> *arynews.tv website citing the PAF source claims it's F7PG.*.although all yours comments regarding similarity are valid. When would they ever start providing some accurate news 😖
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF training aircraft crashes in Rawalpindi, no causalities reported
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, the Air Headquarters has constituted a committee to find out the causes behind the jet crash incident.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arynews.tv


The link you have posted says no such thing.

Although, It quotes an earlier crash of a FT-7PG based out of Peshawar back in 2018. Please re-read.

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## Dr. Abdul Basit

Blacklight said:


> The link you have posted says no such thing.
> 
> Although, It quotes an earlier crash of a FT-7PG based out of Peshawar back in 2018.


Thanks 
That's my mistake sorry to the media as well.
Deleting post.

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## SQ8

The pilot is safe - the aircraft is a $18 million loss. 

But

We aren’t going to have to now prepare to ask for a new jet through embassy contacts
Ask for a quote, think of congressional approval or any other foreign parliamentary approval.

We have all the parts available, all the technology available today to build a replacement within 6 months.

That is what indigenous stuff gets you.

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## Mrc

Replace this with block 3

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## Ali_Baba

Hopefully that free Tie from Martin Baker is working it's way to that pilot right now .. good to see the pilot up and about on his own. Looks like a good clean ejection from the ejection seat.

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## masterchief_mirza

Irfan Baloch said:


> Dawn news moderation tool is helpless against usual Indian Indian trolling
> As expected. The internet hindus swarm on such news and spam the comments section.
> Sometimes no Pakistani post is selected. I stopped trying to get my commenting years ago since only once my comment was posted about 6 or 7 years ago.
> I am not suggesting dawn is more pro India or censors any post that is pro Pak military but their moderation tool or criteria is dysfunctional.
> 
> Check out the snide comments selected by dawn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s efforts made Afghan talks possible, says Bajwa
> 
> 
> Credits Imran for facilitating Doha dialogue.
> 
> 
> 
> www.dawn.com


Nothing new or unexpected. 

Alhamdolillah pilot is safe and will guard our skies once again.

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## Blacklight

Stealth said:


> Pakistani Fav State of the Ar JF17 LOL this is the first time PAF not even mention the aircraft name


i'm surprised they didn't, but with the tail pic out on social media, ideally they should have.

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## PanzerKiel

Windjammer said:


> The aircraft that crashed appeared in a video recently.
> 
> View attachment 670082


I wonder why the parachute was open.......if it was not taken away by authorities after the crash....

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## Blacklight

PanzerKiel said:


> I wonder why the parachute was open.......if it was not taken away by authorities after the crash....


Drag chute? 

Speculation - The enormity of the crash caused the chute to deploy?

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## Windjammer

PanzerKiel said:


> I wonder why the parachute was open.......if it was not taken away by authorities after the crash....


Do you mean drag chute of the aircraft.....possibly the impact forced it open.

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## CHI RULES

EagleEyes said:


> F-7 sure make the category of Mig-21s. Even though they are effective, but are really bad as far as the crashing rate goes. I think much of the causes of the crashing depends on the maintenance, air frame age, and total awareness of the planes condition which i am pretty sure Chinese and Russian fighters lack due to how their avionics is.


Sir simple F7 and even F7PGs were designed for short span of time yet we are extending their life, similarly I have read that Mig 21 family variants have high speed and some times pilot is unable to eject or improper ejection causes the loss of life, I wrote that PAF at least should make ejection systems better in old jets and a pro refuted my idea and said that PAF jets already have modern ejection system. Due to lack of time I am unable to do research however have seen many ejection systems in documentaries especially US ones where pilots eject even at low or very high altitudes and remain safe.

Certainly there is a sense of pride which some times brings disaster.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> i'm surprised they didn't, but with the tail pic out on social media, ideally they should have.


Poor information control. For people who talk big about hybrid warfare and stuff, we do a lousy job with building narratives.

@SQ8 laid out the right approach.

We should've said:

_"Yes, a JF-17 was lost to an accident. Fortunately, there are no casualties or damage to surrounding areas. AHQ is now beginning an inquiry to determine the cause of the accident. AHQ will also start talks with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex to replace this unit as soon as possible."_​
So: avoid the word "crash" and end the statement with something about PAC and our ability to replace this at-will. Let that last point drive the narrative (i.e. no one's stopping us from replacing this unit).

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## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Poor information control. For people who talk big about hybrid warfare and stuff, we do a lousy job with building narratives.
> 
> @SQ8 laid out the right approach.
> 
> We should've said:
> 
> _"Yes, a JF-17 was lost to an accident. Fortunately, there are no casualties or damage to surrounding areas. AHQ is now beginning an inquiry to determine the cause of the accident. AHQ will also start talks with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex to replace this unit as soon as possible."_​
> So: avoid the word "crash" and end the statement with something about PAC and our ability to replace this at-will. Let that last point drive the narrative (i.e. no one's stopping us from replacing this unit).



Exactly, our media relations is poor.

Question, if this was a Block 1 will it be replaced by Block 2 or they replace it like for like?


----------



## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Poor information control. For people who talk big about hybrid warfare and stuff, we do a lousy job with building narratives.
> 
> @SQ8 laid out the right approach.
> 
> We should've said:
> 
> _"Yes, a JF-17 was lost to an accident. Fortunately, there are no casualties or damage to surrounding areas. AHQ is now beginning an inquiry to determine the cause of the accident. AHQ will also start talks with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex to replace this unit as soon as possible."_​
> So: avoid the word "crash" and end the statement with something about PAC and our ability to replace this at-will. Let that last point drive the narrative (i.e. no one's stopping us from replacing this unit).


Keeping indians guessing is one more objective achieved.
But crowd don't think strategically.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Qutb-ud-din Aybak said:


> Keeping indians guessing is one more objective achieved.
> But crowd don't think strategically.


The Indians that matter aren't guessing. The plane in question is obvious. The real objective should've been to flip the script. But that's what the Indians are good at, not us. We're just stuck at doing a bad job "hiding" things, starting with OBL.

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## Stealth

Blacklight said:


> i'm surprised they didn't, but with the tail pic out on social media, ideally they should have.



Failed to understand why we are not showing failure stuff... why PAF not openly mention the aircraft lol why we are hiding stuff... because we believes sab pagal hain aur bas ham samajdaar hain lol

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## Blacklight

Stealth said:


> Failed to understand why we are not showing failure stuff... why PAF not openly mention the aircraft lol why we are hiding stuff... because we believes sab pagal hain aur bas ham samajdaar hain lol


@SQ8 and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) have beautifully spelt it out how it should have been disclosed, in this age of social media. 

I had a look at the PAF website, and was really disapointed. Not one Press release since Oct 2019.



http://www.paf.gov.pk/#/press-release

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## Stealth

Blacklight said:


> @SQ8 and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) have beautifully spelt it out how it should have been disclosed, in this age of social media.
> 
> I had a look at the PAF website, and was really disapointed. Not one Press release since Oct 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.paf.gov.pk/#/press-release



And here a force who has fear to admit or mention the aircraft type which everybody knows why, this force will going to built 5th Gen fighter .... dunya nay taraki aween nahe karli... hamara masla eek hey "Ham sab ko bewakoof aur kudh ko bohat phanay khan samajtay hain" from social media to news, everyone making fun of us... JF17 na hogaya Raptor hogaya

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Alhamdu'lillah the pilot is safe. Sad day for Pakistan Air Force and all combat aircraft enthusiasts all over.

Third JF-17 Thunder to honour Pakistan Air Force and to fly as the pride of Pakistan.


*Aircraft*​*Block*​*Model*​*Serial No.*​*Status*​*Date*​JF-17 Thunder1​A​10-127​Crashed​Monday 14 November 2011JF-17 Thunder2​A​15-209​Crashed​Tuesday 27 September 2016JF-17 Thunder2​A​17-241​Crashed​Tuesday 15 September 2020

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## Tipu7

The information handling approach of Armed Forces media departments regarding crisis and disasters, is naive to say the least. People working in these departments fail to project correct information at correct time and thus form a information vacuum which is usually filled up by online propaganda or rumors. The 'uniformed men' sitting in high offices need to realise that they are not living in 80s or 90s where controlling flow of information was as easy as blocking a news from getting published in newspaper. Now every person with phone is a walking news channel. The duties of media departments of armed forces is far more than releasing of random songs and videos on timely basis. The sooner they learn it, the better.

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## Salman876

Pakistan fought bravely and wisely on 27 Feb, but lost in media (f16, 300 terrorist). We should be so much clear that there should be no question and no doubt by neutral observer.

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## SQ8

Blacklight said:


> @SQ8 and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) have beautifully spelt it out how it should have been disclosed, in this age of social media.
> 
> I had a look at the PAF website, and was really disapointed. Not one Press release since Oct 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.paf.gov.pk/#/press-release


Considering the amount of operational hours this has accumulated, the metrics are pretty good.

While the neighbors may be having their selfpleasure sessions we need to look at the following.

The first crash caused by a combination of poor test methodology which caused the airframe to disintegrate - Pilot KIA due to low altitude and g’s pulled(quite a bit per some reports)

Second was CFIT - no fault of airframe

Third was bird strike - no fault of airframe and the pilot

Compare that to other airframe operated around us and their crash causes

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## Riz

nomi007 said:


> یہ جو انکوری ریپوٹ ہوتی ھے
> یہ پبلل کیوں نہں ٰہوتی


کیونکہ پھر بندروں کے ہاتھ بندوق لگ جاتی ہے

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## Blacklight

SQ8 said:


> Considering the amount of operational hours this has accumulated, the metrics are pretty good.
> 
> While the neighbors may be having their selfpleasure sessions we need to look at the following.
> 
> The first crash caused by a combination of poor test methodology which caused the airframe to disintegrate - Pilot KIA due to low altitude and g’s pulled(quite a bit per some reports)
> 
> Second was CFIT - no fault of airframe
> 
> Third was bird strike - no fault of airframe and the pilot
> 
> Compare that to other airframe operated around us and their crash causes


Unfortunately, we are terrible, when it comes to PR.

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## Mrc

nomi007 said:


> یہ جو انکوری ریپوٹ ہوتی ھے
> یہ پبلل کیوں نہں ٰہوتی




U want technical details of jf 17 there strengths and weaknesses made public?
Shud we also put number of nukes their power and locations and capacity of our reactors in same report or in a separate one?

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## hussain0216

Salman876 said:


> Pakistan fought bravely and wisely on 27 Feb, but lost in media (f16, 300 terrorist). We should be so much clear that there should be no question and no doubt by neutral observer.



PAKISTAN won in everyway in February 2019

It was total humilation of India

Indian fantasy has just made them look like numbskulls


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## Trailer23

Pilot walked away - literally to the rescue copter without any aid.
No loss of life on Ground

I mean this sh!t happens around the World all the time.

Earlier this year a USAF F-16 crashed into a f#*kin' warehouse. I don't see anyone calling the Viper 'junk', so I couldn't care less 'bout what comes out from the East.

Its sad that one of our Squadrons in now a plane short, but there is a valuable lesson to be learnt from the Crash which the PAF will look into.

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## PakFactor

Trailer23 said:


> Pilot walked away - literally to the rescue copter without any aid.
> No loss of life on Ground
> 
> I mean this sh!t happens around the World all the time.
> 
> Earlier this year a USAF F-16 crashed into a f#*kin' warehouse. I don't see anyone calling the Viper 'junk', so I couldn't care less 'bout what comes out from the East.
> 
> Its sad that one of our Squadrons in now a plane short, but there is a valuable lesson to be learnt from the Crash which the PAF will look into.



Exactly, our track record still remains the best and as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) said we can replace this in-house rather than requesting US and Co. And we learn from this and improve. Same can’t be said of the shit bags to our East who shot down their own air craft.

Lest not forget in 10 years it’s only the 3 plane

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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> The aircraft that crashed appeared in a video recently.
> 
> View attachment 670082


17-241 with Aselpod in one of the previous flights .....

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## SQ8

Blacklight said:


> Unfortunately, we are terrible, when it comes to PR.


Well - to be fair the USAF instagram account has been mislabeling aircraft for the longest time.

But we do face a total of 1.3 billion of which the genocidal hatred percentage is in double digits and then those with general hatred follow - add to that 30% on the internet so even if its just 200 million then its 200 million who start their morning wanting to harm us in any way possible even if it is excreting on twitter.

We cannot match that online voice or army without funding and an extremely well thought out strategy; which many who do also fail at.

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## ziaulislam

RIP 17-241 you served well for 3 years

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## mingle

PanzerKiel said:


> ... You can imagine night time, with the border line between sea and sky not clear at horizon.
> 
> Same is the case in bad weather as well....
> 
> Point is, the pilot becomes unsure of his aircraft position relative to ground.....
> 
> Pilots are therefore trained to trust their instruments at all costs in such conditions. But then, you pay the price if you don't.
> 
> I still remember, that JF17 over Arabian Sea, was flying normally, but once it crashed, the altitude loss rate was horrendous enough..... thousands of feet in a few seconds, almost went nose down....
> 
> No may day call, nothing.


They said JFK Jr plane crashed due to disorientation he was unable to judge things in dark and plunged into sea I also remember in 80s we lost F16 at sargodha same case

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## alee92nawaz

Riz said:


> کیونکہ پھر بندروں کے ہاتھ بندوق لگ جاتی ہے


Because we are naaris and they are noories. We pay for the toys but can't ask about them

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Well - to be fair the USAF instagram account has been mislabeling aircraft for the longest time.
> 
> But we do face a total of 1.3 billion of which the genocidal hatred percentage is in double digits and then those with general hatred follow - add to that 30% on the internet so even if its just 200 million then its 200 million who start their morning wanting to harm us in any way possible even if it is excreting on twitter.
> 
> We cannot match that online voice or army without funding and an extremely well thought out strategy; which many who do also fail at.


If we want to buy into the concept of '5th-gen war' or 'hybrid war,' then Pakistan should be investing in actual hybrid warriors for the task. You need economists, policy experts, digital marketers, content marketers, and video/creative designers, not conventionally trained officers.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If we want to buy into the concept of '5th-gen war' or 'hybrid war,' then *Pakistan should be investing* in actual hybrid warriors for the task. You need economists, policy experts, digital marketers, content marketers, and video/creative designers, not conventionally trained officers.


Made me chuckle bhai

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## truthfollower

thank you for saving our pilot's life #Thank you Martin Baker 🥰

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## GriffinsRule

truthfollower said:


> thank you for saving our pilot's life #Thank you Martin Baker 🥰
> View attachment 670261
> 
> View attachment 670262


This is news news to me as I imagined/hoped that the second JF-17 crash during the night exercises over the sea might have had an ejection too and that the pilot survived but looks like it's not the case. Glad to see this young officer did eject safely.

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## Thorough Pro

All man-made things that are put in the air or on the water, will someday go down because that is a natural thing to happen, no one can stop it. Failures happen and nature works. Thank GOD pilot is safe and no loss of life or property on the ground.

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## fatman17

Block 2


Windjammer said:


> The aircraft that crashed appeared in a video recently.
> 
> View attachment 670082


----------



## Fawadqasim1

Girte hain shahsawar hi maidan-e-jang mein
Wo tifl kyaa girega jo ghutnon ke bal chale

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## Tomcats

SQ8 said:


> Considering the amount of operational hours this has accumulated, the metrics are pretty good.
> 
> While the neighbors may be having their selfpleasure sessions we need to look at the following.
> 
> The first crash caused by a combination of poor test methodology which caused the airframe to disintegrate - Pilot KIA due to low altitude and g’s pulled(quite a bit per some reports)
> 
> Second was CFIT - no fault of airframe
> 
> Third was bird strike - no fault of airframe and the pilot
> 
> Compare that to other airframe operated around us and their crash causes


I don't think there is an official statement regarding the cause of the crash of the recent incident? I've seen the bird strike reason been put out but it's just like when news channels were throwing around 'F-7' and images of the Shorkot crash before images of JF-17 wreckage started to surface. So as of this moment i don't think we know the exact reason really, it could be birds or a plethora of other reasons. I hope that the PAF clarifies though in time.


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## PakFactor

Thorough Pro said:


> All man-made things that are put in the air or on the water, will someday go down because that is a natural thing to happen, no one can stop it. Failures happen and nature works. Thank GOD pilot is safe and no loss of life or property on the ground.



Agreed just happy the pilot has survived its our most valuable asset. The plane can and will be replaced.

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## Marker

Aircraft accident investigation should be thorough. Every evidence and exhibit must be thoroughly examined, evaluated in detail and depth. Every possible direct and indirect cause should be identified and addressed.

Preventive measures must be highlighted to avoid such unfortunate occurrence.

Operational, maintenance and other related staff must be told to avoid complacency as this is the major reason of any mishap.

After Feb 2019, it appears most of the staff in PAF has become complacent. This must be avoided.

Success and failures are part of life. We must focus on the current task and mission at our hand. By avoiding complacency we will be able to achieve 100% result otherwise......

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## alibaz

nomi007 said:


> یہ جو انکوری ریپوٹ ہوتی ھے
> یہ پبلل کیوں نہں ٰہوتی



Its military aircraft and its inquiry is not meant for general public. inquiry report in public may leak out information regarding its systems or weaknesses which are not desired to let adversary know. Finally have we achieved by making few inquiries public, what I learnt that many monkeys found a match box and they started putting jungle on fire.

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## PanzerKiel

Marker said:


> Operational, maintenance and other related staff must be told to avoid complacency as this is the major reason of any mishap.
> After Feb 2019, it appears most of the staff in PAF has become complacent. This must be avoided.


Harsh verdict from your side, i must say.

Instead of complacency, it has more to do with regional dynamics / environment, increased flying post-Feb 2019, increased drills....overall increased flying. Our country been much nearer to war from Feb 2019 till now than never before.

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## Enigma SIG

PanzerKiel said:


> Harsh verdict from your side, i must say.
> 
> Instead of complacency, it has more to do with regional dynamics / environment, increased flying post-Feb 2019, increased drills....overall increased flying. Our country been much nearer to war from Feb 2019 till now than never before.


I'm pretty sure higher sortie rates increase attrition.

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## Marker

PanzerKiel said:


> Harsh verdict from your side, i must say.
> 
> Instead of complacency, it has more to do with regional dynamics / environment, increased flying post-Feb 2019, increased drills....overall increased flying. Our country been much nearer to war from Feb 2019 till now than never before.


PAF pilots continuously undergo harsh flying training. It is their part of daily routine. 

When I referred complacency, I was considering human nature. It is human nature, to become complacent due to some outstanding achievements. Repeating tasks and missions also make a person complacent.

FOD drill is a regular drill in the morning. But there were some occasions when a person responsible to pick the FOD missed it and the same was sucked in engine. A routine makes you complacent. 

Therefore, it is the duty of commanders to ensure that their subordinates do not show such attitude. Repeated reminders are necessary.

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## Tomcats

alibaz said:


> Its military aircraft and its inquiry is not meant for general public. inquiry report in public may leak out information regarding its systems or weaknesses which are not desired to let adversary know. Finally have we achieved by making few inquiries public, what I learnt that many monkeys found a match box and they started putting jungle on fire.


Well alternatively PAF could follow the USAF route in that they publish 2 reports. One that is meant for civilian viewing and another more detailed 'full' report that only those who the PAF deem necessary can view. I'm sure the USAF knows what information is deemed too valuable to be able to be made public, likewise with the PAF.

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## Raider 21

Issam said:


> Well alternatively PAF could follow the USAF route in that they publish 2 reports. One that is meant for civilian viewing and another more detailed 'full' report that only those who the PAF deem necessary can view. I'm sure the USAF knows what information is deemed too valuable to be able to be made public, likewise with the PAF.


USAF makes sure that it is USA's air force. PAF is for PAF itself. I feel it is more about maintaining a mighty status in the country rather than being realistic and open to the public. Like one good example would be, the PAF Viper that crashed in Islamabad during a rehearsal. Unofficially amongst air force members and word of mouth there is a cause for the crash, yet the public officially don't have a statement unfortunately from PAF. I personally have a lot of respect for what PAF does and their roles (fortunate to have been an air force brat). But there's a lot that needs to be worked on, and I hope with time it does get addressed.

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## Talon

PanzerKiel said:


> Casualties in "High" Mark 2016 -
> 
> 1 F-7PG aircraft - Fl. Lt. Omer Shahzad dead
> 1 JF17 aircraft - Sqn Ldr Rizwan dead
> 1 GIDS Shahpar UAV crash


You forgot Mirage Crash at Masroor

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## kursed



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## Chak Bamu

GriffinsRule said:


> This is news news to me as I imagined/hoped that the second JF-17 crash during the night exercises over the sea might have had an ejection too and that the pilot survived but looks like it's not the case. Glad to see this young officer did eject safely.


The very first JF-17 loss had an ejection too, IIRC. But we lost gem of a pilot because the aircraft was low, at an angle, & so the seat ejected into terrain before the parachute could deploy. Its been a few years and I am too lazy to double-check. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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## airomerix

Marker said:


> PAF pilots continuously undergo harsh flying training. It is their part of daily routine.
> 
> When I referred complacency, I was considering human nature. It is human nature, to become complacent due to some outstanding achievements. Repeating tasks and missions also make a person complacent.
> 
> FOD drill is a regular drill in the morning. But there were some occasions when a person responsible to pick the FOD missed it and the same was sucked in engine. A routine makes you complacent.
> 
> Therefore, it is the duty of commanders to ensure that their subordinates do not show such attitude. Repeated reminders are necessary.



Post swift retort, PAF has seen a major change in the curriculum where the training doctrine has been tightened like never before. More pilots are being disqualified due to a new syllabus that has been recently innovated. 

For example, to qualify for section leader, let's say if there are x number of continuous sorties required. For any reason, in one of the sorties, the aircraft is forced to recover back without completing the mission. That sortie is not counted as per the new curriculum and the entire chain of qualification has to be duplicated. This not only puts the pilots to the test, but also the engineering and other combat support elements involved. 

Your earlier verdict of complacency is based on a mere assumption that is actually far from what has been happening in the institution.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

airomerix said:


> Post swift retort, PAF has seen a major change in the curriculum where the training doctrine has been tightened like never before. More pilots are being disqualified due to a new syllabus that has been recently innovated.
> 
> For example, to qualify for section leader, let's say if there are x number of continuous sorties required. For any reason, in one of the sorties, the aircraft is forced to recover back without completing the mission. That sortie is not counted as per the new curriculum and the entire chain of qualification has to be duplicated. This not only puts the pilots to the test, but also the engineering and other combat support elements involved.
> 
> Your earlier verdict of complacency is based on a mere assumption that is actually far from what has been happening in the institution.


It sounds like we're stressing our airframes more, which necessitates new-build aircraft. I think we should be pushing PAC's JF-17 output to its limit, possibly look at expanding our order past the 188 aircraft (26 JF-17Bs and 162 Block-I/II/III). Perhaps manufacture a dozen or so for storage/attrition replacements.

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## mingle

Chak Bamu said:


> The very first JF-17 loss had an ejection too, IIRC. But we lost gem of a pilot because the aircraft was low, at an angle, & so the seat ejected into terrain before the parachute could deploy. Its been a few years and I am too lazy to double-check. Please correct me if I am wrong.


I think pilot was Sqdn leader Zulfiqar??


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## PakFactor

mingle said:


> I think pilot was Sqdn leader Zulfiqar??



Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain

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## Thorough Pro

no need to divulge every detail of the curriculum



airomerix said:


> Post swift retort, PAF has seen a major change in the curriculum where the training doctrine has been tightened like never before. More pilots are being disqualified due to a new syllabus that has been recently innovated.
> 
> For example, to qualify for section leader, let's say if there are x number of continuous sorties required. For any reason, in one of the sorties, the aircraft is forced to recover back without completing the mission. That sortie is not counted as per the new curriculum and the entire chain of qualification has to be duplicated. This not only puts the pilots to the test, but also the engineering and other combat support elements involved.
> 
> Your earlier verdict of complacency is based on a mere assumption that is actually far from what has been happening in the institution.


----------



## Marker

airomerix said:


> Post swift retort, PAF has seen a major change in the curriculum where the training doctrine has been tightened like never before. More pilots are being disqualified due to a new syllabus that has been recently innovated.
> 
> For example, to qualify for section leader, let's say if there are x number of continuous sorties required. For any reason, in one of the sorties, the aircraft is forced to recover back without completing the mission. That sortie is not counted as per the new curriculum and the entire chain of qualification has to be duplicated. This not only puts the pilots to the test, but also the engineering and other combat support elements involved.
> 
> Your earlier verdict of complacency is based on a mere assumption that is actually far from what has been happening in the institution.


No further comments on this subject,


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## mingle

PakFactor said:


> Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain


Thanks for correction


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## mingle

Marker said:


> No further comments on this subject,


From Marker to Shareff


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## Marker

mingle said:


> From Marker to Shareff


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## Myth_buster_1

airomerix said:


> Post swift retort, PAF has seen a major change in the curriculum where the training doctrine has been tightened like never before. More pilots are being disqualified due to a new syllabus that has been recently innovated.
> 
> For example, to qualify for section leader, let's say if there are x number of continuous sorties required. For any reason, in one of the sorties, the aircraft is forced to recover back without completing the mission. That sortie is not counted as per the new curriculum and the entire chain of qualification has to be duplicated. This not only puts the pilots to the test, but also the engineering and other combat support elements involved.
> 
> Your earlier verdict of complacency is based on a mere assumption that is actually far from what has been happening in the institution.



In IAF take off and landing is considered TOP GUN achievement.

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## maverick1977

kursed said:


> Just confirmed. It's a JF-17 crash.


dont be sad folks, everything is for betterment, i am sure it will reveal some important parameter for future, which will improve jf17

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## Dark1

airomerix said:


> Post swift retort, PAF has seen a major change in the curriculum where the training doctrine has been tightened like never before. More pilots are being disqualified due to a new syllabus that has been recently innovated.
> 
> For example, to qualify for section leader, let's say if there are x number of continuous sorties required. For any reason, in one of the sorties, the aircraft is forced to recover back without completing the mission. That sortie is not counted as per the new curriculum and the entire chain of qualification has to be duplicated. This not only puts the pilots to the test, but also the engineering and other combat support elements involved.
> 
> Your earlier verdict of complacency is based on a mere assumption that is actually far from what has been happening in the institution.


Major change ? For a operation that was considered a success , what necessitates a major change ? Success is built upon. Maybe a few tweaks would have been enough ? Doesn't compute.


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## Marker

Dark1 said:


> Major change ? For a operation that was considered a success , what necessitates a major change ? Success is built upon. Maybe a few tweaks would have been enough ? Doesn't compute.


This is why I wanted to avoid further discussions. It is urged that the respected members must avoid critical topics in open forums.

Details of PAF pilot's training is not scope of this forum.

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## fatman17

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Negative sir,
> Its JFT from Tail Choppers Sqn.
> Pilot Ejected Safely.


Yes

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## Bratva

Dark1 said:


> Major change ? For a operation that was considered a success , what necessitates a major change ? Success is built upon. Maybe a few tweaks would have been enough ? Doesn't compute.



It was CCS cadre leading the Swift Retort Operation in the air. Strikers ( JF-17 Squadron Leader who dropped mk-83 is from CCS) Hassan Siddqiue , Noman, Mirage pilots. Veterans and CCS Cadres and Creme *de* la creme . Now the tactics has to trickle down to normal cadre, the regular squadrons.

PAF exposed their tactics to IAF. Another reason to modify and bring new tactics in curriculum to keep the element of surprise. You dont build upon already exposed tactics as Enemy has already anticipated your moves. You surprise them with new set of tactics.

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## airomerix

Bratva said:


> It was CCS cadre leading the Swift Retort Operation in the air. Strikers ( JF-17 Squadron Leader who dropped mk-83 is from CCS) Hassan Siddqiue , Noman, Mirage pilots. Veterans and CCS Cadres and Creme *de* la creme . Now the tactics has to trickle down to normal cadre, the regular squadrons.
> 
> PAF exposed their tactics to IAF. Another reason to modify and bring new tactics in curriculum to keep the element of surprise. You dont build upon already exposed tactics as Enemy has already anticipated your moves. You surprise them with new set of tactics.



Excellent post. 

Similarly, tactics evolve regularly. Post swift retort we have also learnt significantly about enemy's training, tactics and doctrine. Hence there is no reason to be confused about these changes that actually represent progress. 

@Dark1 @Marker

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## The Eagle

Dark1 said:


> Major change ? For a operation that was considered a success , what necessitates a major change ? Success is built upon. Maybe a few tweaks would have been enough ? Doesn't compute.



Different Air Forces, different calibers, different goals, different mindset, different level of quality, different bars to up the skills & capability, different tactics, different battlefield approach & plans; in the end one cannot match the curriculum of two Air Forces having large margin of professionalism and different results.

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## PanzerKiel

The Eagle said:


> Different Air Forces, different calibers, different goals, different mindset, different level of quality, different bars to up the skills & capability; in the end once cannot match the curriculum of two Air Forces having large margin of professionalism.


.... And all these differences made and will again make THE DIFFERENCE.

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## TsAr

PanzerKiel said:


> Controlled Flight Into Terrain
> 
> an accident in which an airworthy aircraft, under pilot control, is unintentionally flown into the ground, a mountain, a body of water or an obstacle


Do you mean to say spatial disorientation.

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## Marker

CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




Wikipedia site is attacked by Indian trolls.
They added 4th JF-17 crash on 15 Feb 2020.
Semi blocked the page to stop further edit.
Any member current on unblocking and correcting the page, please do so.


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## GriffinsRule

Marker said:


> CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wikipedia site is attacked by Indian trolls.
> They added 4th JF-17 crash on 15 Feb 2020.
> Semi blocked the page to stop further edit.
> Any member current on unblocking and correcting the page, please do so.



They are complete morons and pathetic to no end. Their fictional crash is that of the T-37 where the pilot ejected safely, as is mentioned in the new report as well and it being a trainer aircraft(the picture is from the first crash in 2011). Now, if it was a JF-17 and the pilot had ejected safely, Martin Baker would have not called the September 15th crash as the first successful ejected from the Thunder.


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## Sohail Niazai

Just Coming in, PAF JET crashed near Attock...

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## Windjammer

A PAF trainer has crashed near Attock, both pilots ejected safely.

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## Sohail Niazai

Windjammer said:


> A PAF trainer has crashed near Attock, both pilots ejected safely.


Was if JF17B ?

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## Sifar zero

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423553104050540545

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## Windjammer

Sohail Niazai said:


> Was if JF17B ?



Yes JF-17B on final approach crashed.....likely a bird strike.

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## Sohail Niazai

Windjammer said:


> Nothing confirmed yet.


Was just curious because last JF17 crash was near same area and JF17Bs are also stationed there...


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## Hawkeye1

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423558135432818690

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423557226527182850


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## Yasser76

So glad pilots and people on the ground are safe. This is the ultimate strength of PAF now, we lose a JF-17B and in a few months can churn out a replacement. IAF lose a Rafale or SU-30 then they have to run to Russia or France....

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## The Raven

Wouldn't surprise me if it was a bird strike, given the degree of urbanisation around PAF bases, and poor sanitation and disposal of waste, especially during Eid time. Some of the major airbases need to be relocated in my opinion, otherwise we'll see more of this in the future.

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## Areesh

Good news is that both pilots are safe and that is what matters

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## Vortex

Allah Ka shukkar hay both pilots are safe and no one lost life on ground

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## Tomcats

Pakistan Air Force


Pakistan Air Force, Islamabad, Pakistan. 194,381 likes · 3,058 talking about this · 3,292 were here. Official page of the Pakistan Air Force being managed by DGPR (AF). For more info visit:...




www.facebook.com


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## The Eagle

Bird hit on final approach.

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## Shahzad Sultan

Alhamdollilah no loss of life

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## Tomcats

*PAF trainer aircraft crashes near Attock*
Both pilots ejected successfully and no loss of life or property has been reported

*LAHORE:*
A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) trainer aircraft crashed near Attock on Friday during a routine training mission.

"Both pilots have ejected successfully. No loss of life or property has been reported so far on the ground," said a statement from the air force.

The statement added that a board of Inquiry has been ordered to investigate the cause of the accident.

Last year in September, A PAF trainer aircraft crashed near the Pindigheb area of Attock district during a routine flight.

Read More: PAF inducts 14 dual-seat JF-17 aircraft into its fleet

"The pilot ejected safely," a PAF spokesperson had said adding that a board of inquiry had been ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident.

Earlier in February of the same year, a PAF Mirage aircraft crashed near Shorkot in Punjab. The aircraft was on a routine operational training mission at the time of the incident, said a statement released by the PAF.

The had pilot ejected safely and no loss of life or property has been reported on the ground. A board of inquiry was ordered by Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the accident.









PAF trainer aircraft crashes near Attock | The Express Tribune


Both pilots ejected successfully and no loss of life or property has been reported




tribune.com.pk


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## Village life

Shukar Alhamdolillah no loss of lifes , will make new plane soon inshallah,


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## MIRauf

If the Jigs have been switched over to Block-III then how will a Block-IIB be built without switching back ?

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## Yasser76

MIRauf said:


> If the Jigs have been switched over to Block-III then how will a Block-IIB be built without switching back ?



There is a Chinese facility and also I imagine a massive amount of commonality between the airframes, unsure if that would leave to totally new jigs, the diffrences in Block III are mostly internal and avionics


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## Amavous

Bad new. It will be bitter but truth be told JF-17 safety record so far can be termed as mediocre at best. Now units from Block I, Block II & Block II- B have crashed, which were all almost brand new.

Training & maintenance procedures must be re-worked, we cannot just ignore every crash by saying "Bird Hit". Block III should be tested and tested some more for safety, even if it means delaying it.

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## Yasser76

Amavous said:


> Bad new. It will be bitter but truth be told JF-17 safety record so far can be termed as mediocre at best. Now units from Block I, Block II & Block II- B have crashed, which were all almost brand new.
> 
> Training & maintenance procedures must be re-worked, we cannot just ignore every crash by saying "Bird Hit". Block III should be tested and tested some more for safety, even if it means delaying it.



If it was a bird hit these things simply happen. No need to worry about the sky falling down. Engine flame out, pilot error or stall then yes, look into changing things. We had an experianced guy crash a F-16 doing aerobatics last year, does not mean we grounded the F-16 fleet.


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## Akh1112

MIRauf said:


> If the Jigs have been switched over to Block-III then how will a Block-IIB be built without switching back ?


It’s the same airframe mostly as 1/2.


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## Jawad-Ali-Khan

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 767809
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423581120080138240


Engine had stopped working at 5:50?


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## iLION12345_1

Amavous said:


> Bad new. It will be bitter but truth be told JF-17 safety record so far can be termed as mediocre at best. Now units from Block I, Block II & Block II- B have crashed, which were all almost brand new.
> 
> Training & maintenance procedures must be re-worked, we cannot just ignore every crash by saying "Bird Hit". Block III should be tested and tested some more for safety, even if it means delaying it.


Comment makes little sense, bird strikes have nothing to do with maintenance. In fact the birds are likely around due to the negligence of civilians who throw out their trash into the streets. How the heck will better training and maintenance avoid a bird strike? How does this mean the thunder is unsafe or it’s safety record is mediocre?

In fact the Thunder has a Stellar service record for having only 4 crashes in its entire lifetime and 1 or 2 of them not even being the aircrafts fault. Compare that to literally any other aircraft with a 10+ year service life that’s flown in this many numbers and for this many hours, you’ll fail to find any aircraft much safer than this. Even the USAF has bird strikes, does this mean they’re not doing proper maintenance…?

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## Falconless

No tweet by Martin Baker? Do the B’s use Chinese seats?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1305911717138960384


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## Amavous

iLION12345_1 said:


> Comment makes little sense, bird strikes have nothing to do with maintenance. In fact the birds are likely around due to the negligence of civilians who throw out their trash into the streets.



I am not saying that bout "bird hits", that can happen anyways but not all crashes were bird hits. that part of my comment is about the crashes that were not the bird the hit.

2ndly, my house is just 2 KMs away from Sargodha airbase, and comes under the cantonment board which is technically headed by Base commander. Our street throws all of it trash in a open area due to lack of waste bin there. My late father had to visit the cantonment board office multiple times, for them to send sanitation truck just to clean that garbage up. Even for the streets that do have these garbage bin. garbage is always over flowing no regular cleaning there either. That's the way things are around Sargodha airbase (biggest PAF base).

All surrounding areas near PAF airbases are technically under PAF/cantonment board responsibility. They cannot just dump it on civilian and escape accountability. They way they handle roads & other infrastructure is story for another day.

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## Windjammer

Sorry guys had to delete earlier posts as it were some Indian loser putting up fake images.
However the Video of Pilots recovery is genuine.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423581120080138240

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## Marker

PAF lost first F-16 due to wild boar hit during TO.

PAF lost many valuable aircraft and some times precious lives of pilots due to bird hit. 

PAF has a very effective programme to minimise/eliminate this menace. However, more efforts are required to avoid such occurrences.

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## PakFactor

Windjammer said:


> Sorry guys had to delete earlier posts as it were some Indian loser putting up fake images.
> However the Video of Pilots recovery is genuine.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423581120080138240



Is it confirmed it was JF-17?


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## Windjammer

PakFactor said:


> Is it confirmed it was JF-17?


Yes, Thunder Bravo.

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## The Eagle

Amavous said:


> Bad new. It will be bitter but truth be told JF-17 safety record so far can be termed as mediocre at best. Now units from Block I, Block II & Block II- B have crashed, which were all almost brand new.
> 
> Training & maintenance procedures must be re-worked, we cannot just ignore every crash by saying "Bird Hit". Block III should be tested and tested some more for safety, even if it means delaying it.



I don't know what makes you think that a professional force will merely say a bird hit and ignore it. For east reference, just look at safety record of PAF. It's just below the belt by calling ignorance.

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## iLION12345_1

Amavous said:


> I am not saying that bout "bird hits", that can happen anyways but not all crashes were bird hits. that part of my comment is about the crashes that were not the bird the hit.
> 
> 2ndly, my house is just 2 KMs away from Sargodha airbase, and comes under the cantonment board which is technically headed by Base commander. Our street throws all of it trash in a open area due to lack of waste bin there. My late father had to visit the cantonment board office multiple times, for them to send sanitation truck just to clean that garbage up. Even for the streets that do have these garbage bin. garbage is always over flowing no regular cleaning there either. That's the way things are around Sargodha airbase (biggest PAF base).
> 
> All surrounding areas near PAF airbases are technically under PAF/cantonment board responsibility. They cannot just dump it on civilian and escape accountability. They way they handle roads & other infrastructure is story for another day.


Yes, only 2 of the crashes were actual malfunctions, and somehow that means Thunder has a bad safety record according? Even if it was 4 crashes and none of them were due to bird strikes, it’s still an excellent Safety record.


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## White Lion

Windjammer said:


> Yes JF-17B on final approach crashed.....likely a bird strike.


Low Level bird strike is always dangerous. Just a thought though on finals the aircraft is on reduced power hence gliding. How come the pilots did not try to land? The only reason is structural failure due to bird strike in which the aircraft could not glide.


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## Yasser76

White Lion said:


> Low Level bird strike is always dangerous. Just a thought though on finals the aircraft is on reduced power hence gliding. How come the pilots did not try to land? The only reason is structural failure due to bird strike in which the aircraft could not glide.



You have never seen a bird strike impact on a cockpit have you?


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## Windjammer

White Lion said:


> Low Level bird strike is always dangerous. Just a thought though on finals the aircraft is on reduced power hence gliding. How come the pilots did not try to land? The only reason is structural failure due to bird strike in which the aircraft could not glide.


Bird strikes are known to have brought down multi engine jets, a single engine aircraft has little to no chance.
Sometimes the impact can be so severe that the aircraft falls like a stone from the air....also on finals with low altitude, no chance of a recovery.

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## ziaulislam

Amavous said:


> Bad new. It will be bitter but truth be told JF-17 safety record so far can be termed as mediocre at best. Now units from Block I, Block II & Block II- B have crashed, which were all almost brand new.
> 
> Training & maintenance procedures must be re-worked, we cannot just ignore every crash by saying "Bird Hit". Block III should be tested and tested some more for safety, even if it means delaying it.


Yeah f22 has bad record..so many have crashed
So is the f16
A crash of mirage jf17 and f7 isnt a crash if the pilots surivive since those are eaisly replaceable or disposable


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## DrWatson775

Windjammer said:


> Sorry guys had to delete earlier posts as it were some Indian loser putting up fake images.
> However the Video of Pilots recovery is genuine.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423581120080138240


Hope they recover quickly... press release did not mention any serious injury.


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## Raider 21

ziaulislam said:


> Yeah f22 has bad record..so many have crashed
> So is the f16
> *A crash of mirage jf17 and f7 isnt a crash if the pilots surivive since those are eaisly replaceable or disposable*


13 recorded cases of the Raptor in its over 25 year span. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/type/F22
F-16s were by a lot back in the day. 

Any aircraft is replaceable. The cost of the pilot far exceeds any aircraft they fly.

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## ziaulislam

Raider 21 said:


> 13 recorded cases of the Raptor in its over 25 year span. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/type/F22
> F-16s were by a lot back in the day.
> 
> Any aircraft is replaceable. The cost of the pilot far exceeds any aircraft they fly.


Bottom line its not a big deal since both of them ejctd safely

An f16 is still not replaceble but bravo we can build more


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## Raider 21

ziaulislam said:


> Bottom line its not a big deal since both of them ejctd safely
> 
> *An f16 is still not replaceble but bravo we can build more*


I don't know who would "we" be. But yes if PAF can afford it and have funds for it, then they can place a formal order to have the write-off replaced eventually.


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## PakShaheen79

Indeed, a sad news but biggest comfort was when I learned about the safety of both pilots. Alhamdolillah. Unfortunately, bird strikes are something no one can do anything except ensuring that birds stay away from our airbases. I am pretty sure, PAF will double down its efforts in this regard.


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## krash

White Lion said:


> Low Level bird strike is always dangerous. Just a thought  though on finals the aircraft is on reduced power hence gliding. How come the pilots did not try to land? The only reason is structural failure due to bird strike in which the aircraft could not glide.



You can't glide indefinitely in any aircraft. Combat jets on the other hand make very bad gliders, they require higher speeds and in turn thrust to generate the required lift. On finals, the aircraft is already close to its stall speed. When it then loses power from a bird strike, the deployed gear and flaps don't allow it much time before it crosses the stall threshold and drops straight down.



MIRauf said:


> If the Jigs have been switched over to Block-III then how will a Block-IIB be built without switching back ?



There will be parallel sub-assemblies for the two variants. That's how you produce both A and B versions for a single order.



Yasser76 said:


> There is a Chinese facility



.........No there isn't.

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## Liquidmetal

Though it should never happen but machines and humans are fallible & though relatively expensive - we can replace the JF-17 B since we make them ourselves. The pilots are the true assets. Thank God they are alive.

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## White Lion

Yasser76 said:


> You have never seen a bird strike impact on a cockpit have you?


On the contrary been in one such incident. Landed safely with the wind shield shattered as this occurred incidentally on finals too.



Windjammer said:


> Bird strikes are known to have brought down multi engine jets, a single engine aircraft has little to no chance.
> Sometimes the impact can be so severe that the aircraft falls like a stone from the air....also on finals with low altitude, no chance of a recovery.


True still there is always a chance of recovery though probability is low and this probability is dependent on the perception of the pilot and his abilities to judge. Non the less Pilots are safe they can fly an other day.



krash said:


> You can't glide indefinitely in any aircraft. Combat jets on the other hand make very bad gliders, they require higher speeds and in turn thrust to generate the required lift. On finals, the aircraft is already close to its stall speed. When it then loses power from a bird strike, the deployed gear and flaps don't allow it much time before it crosses the stall threshold and drops straight down.


They all are designed to glide and have a specific glide angle. Once on Finals there are no more turns required. With Flaps and Landing gear extended Drag increases still glide can be maintained.

The landing speed is higher than glide speed this is done to compensate from the lag of time for engines to spool up (From Idle to Maximum Thrust),

What happened is best known to the Pilots flying and inquiry report would clarify and highlight both the problems and its solutions so that a repeat may never happen again.


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## Dil Pakistan

Thought you guys might want to smile - enjoy: 

(15043) Why Pakistan Hide So Called " Rafale Killer ” Jf 17 Thunder Crash News ? - YouTube


----------



## Shahzaz ud din

*PAF fighter trainer aircraft crashes near Attock*


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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> Yeah f22 has bad record..so many have crashed
> So is the f16
> A crash of mirage jf17 and f7 isnt a crash if the pilots surivive since those are eaisly replaceable or disposable


Every crash gets investigated. Here before the investigations there is talk of bird strike! We have also had boar strikes losing an F16 to wild boars. Let us wait till more information comes out. The important thing is the pilots ejected and are safe. The metal can be reacquired.
A


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## Marker

Mrc said:


> I think the boar strike f 16 was sent to China and that resulted in jf 17


It was fully loaded aircraft proceeding for CAP mission. I was watching it burning and all its munition exploding around it. A very sad scene. In the end only rubbles were left.

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## Ali_Baba

Shahzaz ud din said:


> *PAF fighter trainer aircraft crashes near Attock*



I am loathe to give them a "Youtube view" for such rubbish ..

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## krash

White Lion said:


> They all are designed to glide and have a specific glide angle. Once on Finals there are no more turns required. With Flaps and Landing gear extended Drag increases still glide can be maintained.
> 
> The landing speed is higher than glide speed this is done to compensate from the lag of time for engines to spool up (From Idle to Maximum Thrust),
> 
> What happened is best known to the Pilots flying and inquiry report would clarify and highlight both the problems and its solutions so that a repeat may never happen again.



Best not to ask the question if you're going to reject the answer without making any sense.

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## Windjammer

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 768148


Will you please stop copy pasting everything you see on FB or other social media pages.
This image is from last year and has nothing to do with yesterdays crash.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1305936857289625600

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## TheTallGuy

any idea of tail number?


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## Imran Khan

it was 20614 



















TheTallGuy said:


> any idea of tail number?


20-614

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## untitled

There has been no tweet from Martin-Baker this time around?


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## TheTallGuy

untitled said:


> There has been no tweet from Martin-Baker this time?


i think chinese seats for Bravo?

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## untitled

TheTallGuy said:


> i think chinese seats for Bravo?


So not all JF-17s have Martin-Bakers?


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## Moon

untitled said:


> There has been no tweet from Martin-Baker this time?


Maybe we approached them and told them to not publicise such events?


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## TheTallGuy

Cost cutting on Bravo?


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## Akh1112

Afaik I haven’t seen evidence to suggest it’s a new seat, from my own research I couldn’t conclude due to the lack of images of the cockpit, if someone has high res images I can confrim the seat type for you.


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## Moon

TheTallGuy said:


> Cost cutting on Bravo?


Doubtful, everything hints towards a bird strike.


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## Dazzler

All As and Bs have MB seats.

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## truthfollower

A Pakistan Air Force JF-17B aircraft crashed late last week on a training mission near Attock. Both aircrew ejected successfully from the twin seat aircraft using PK16LE Ejection Seats.


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## Trailer23

I'm glad both guys are alive & safe. Yes, we lost a bird, but those machines can be replaced at some point.

*We've discussed the sh!t out of this incident & requesting everyone to stop posting here - atleast until we have another* incident.*

*Praying it won't be anytime soon.

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## MIRauf

krash said:


> There will be parallel sub-assemblies for the two variants. That's how you produce both A and B versions for a single order.


Ok, thank you much appreciated. As I wasn't aware that PAC was running two assembly lines and since Block B production has ended for now thus my question.


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## krash

MIRauf said:


> Ok, thank you much appreciated. As I wasn't aware that PAC was running two assembly lines and since Block B production has ended for now thus my question.



You misunderstood me. There aren't two assembly lines anywhere. It's a single assembly line with nodes (sub assemblies or "sub-processes") that are either agile enough (adaptable to both models), common to both models, or go off in parallel to join again later. It's two different versions of the same aircraft, not two different aircraft. The commonalities between them extend to their production as well. It's also how a single assembly line for a car, say the Honda Civic, produces different trims, options, and models (hatchback or notchback) for the same car.

An assembly line can look as non-linear as this,

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## Sifar zero

Can anyone list crashes of both Mirage variants in use of PAF over the years.
@iLION12345_1 @Windjammer


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## Raider 21

Sifar zero said:


> Can anyone list crashes of both Mirage variants in use of PAF over the years.
> @iLION12345_1 @Windjammer


https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist.php?Country=AP 
You can try browsing through this

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## Sohail Niazai

Please avoid discussion in this thread unless(hopefully not) there is any crash because it is hard to see messages here because first thing comes to mind is "there is another crash"

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## Black Tornado

*PAF trainer aircraft crashes near Mardan: spokesperson*








The logo of Pakistan Air Force.

Wednesday Sep 22 2021
ISLAMABAD: A small trainer aircraft has crashed near Mardan during a routine training mission, a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) spokesperson said Wednesday.
“A Board of Inquiry has been ordered to investigate the cause of the accident,” the statement added.
_More to follow..._









PAF trainer aircraft crashes near Mardan: spokesperson


Board of Inquiry has been ordered to investigate cause of accident, says spokesperson




www.geo.tv

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## Talon

News of crash of a risalpur based aircraft


----------



## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

What happened to pilots? Are they fine? Allah kare wo thek hoon baki khair hai


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## Black Tornado

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> What happened to pilots? Are they fine? Allah kare wo thek hoon baki khair hai


Reportedly both died


----------



## INDIAPOSITIVE

we feel your pain we lost 2 of ours recently very sad rip

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## sneakerspark

Allah Khair karay.


----------



## SIPRA



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## SIPRA

sneakerspark said:


> Allah Khair karay.


----------



## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

GEO is reporting crash of trainer aircraft .Anyone know how are our pilots? Have they ejected safely??


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## Talon

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> GEO is reporting crash of trainer aircraft .Anyone know how are our pilots? Have they ejected safely??


unconfirmed : pilots shaheed


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## HRK

Hodor said:


> unconfirmed : pilots shaheed


"pilot*s" *you mean *both *.... ???


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## Bilal9

SIPRA said:


> View attachment 779402



Inna Lillahey wa Inna Ilaihey Raji'un.

Ya Allah please accept these two brave souls who have embraced Shahada' and give them your choicest places in Jannah.

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## sneakerspark

Riz said:


> JF-17 ? Allah khair kary


Negative,


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## Riz

T-37 crashed both pilots dead


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## Black Tornado

T-37


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## SIPRA

Bilal9 said:


> Inna Lillahey wa Inna Ilaihey Raji'un.
> 
> Ya Allah please accept these two brave souls who have embraced Shahada' and give them your choicest places in Jannah.



It is one pilot martyred.


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## Riz

Lost two champs due to these faulty junks , RIP brothers


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Riz said:


> T-37 crashed both pilots dead


----------



## SIPRA

Riz said:


> Lost two champs due to these faulty junks , RIP brothers



It is one pilot martyred, as reported in Pakistani news.


----------



## VkdIndian

RIP soldiers.

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## Vortex

_*Inna Lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un*_
May Allah open the doors of the greatest Jannat for the deceased.


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## alibaz

SIPRA said:


> It is one pilot martyred, as reported in Pakistani news.


Heard that It was his first solo mission. Rest in Peace soldier

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## Tomcats

(The reason for the accident is unconfirmed at the moment) Rest in Peace, for those involved in the incident.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440602712299630594


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## ejaz007

*PAF trainer jet crashes near Mardan*
“A Board of Inquiry has been ordered to investigate the cause of the accident,” says PAF spokesperson

Web Desk
September 22, 2021

















Photo: file 
ISLAMABAD: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) training aircraft crashed near Mardan during a routine training mission, a spokesperson of the force said Wednesday.
In a statement, the PAF spokesperson said, “A Board of Inquiry has been ordered to investigate the cause of the accident.”

There were no further details about the incident.









PAF trainer jet crashes near Mardan


ISLAMABAD: A Pakistan Air Force training aircraft crashed near Mardan during a routine training mission, a spokesperson of the force said Wednesday.In a statement, the PAF spokesperson said,...




www.thenews.com.pk


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## Windjammer

*A T-37 aircraft crashed during a training sortie. Sadly A/C Fahad martyred in the tragic accident.*



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440611329845334033

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## MisterSyed

Time to retire this piece of crap! , RIP the Martyrs!


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## Aesterix

When Pakistan has K-8 , why still using museum pieces T-37?


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## ghazi52

A T-37 Tweet aircraft crashed during a training sortie. 
Sadly an under training officer 'UTO'got martyred in the tragic accident.
The aircraft caused no damage to people or infrastructures on the ground. May the Almighty rest his noble soul in peace & give strength to his family in this hour of grief ...

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## Marker

Aesterix said:


> When Pakistan has K-8 , why still using museum pieces T-37?


All PAF T-37 aircraft have undergone SLEP mod (started mid 90s) which extended its operational life to additional 8000 hours. Similarly T-37 received from Turkish Ai Force were already modified.

Furthermore PAF T-37 are/were being upgraded with glass cockpit.

“We are upgrading the T-37s with a glass cockpit, just as we have the Super Mushshak previously”.
Air Chief Marshal (Rtd) Mujahid Anwar Khan, Ex Chief of the Air Staff

Source: https://www.asianmilitaryreview.com/2019/01/pakistan-air-force-builds-for-the-future/

PAF and Ecuadorian Air Force are the only Air Forces operating this aircraft. PAF inducted this aircraft in 1962. These have been supplemented over the years with additional aircraft from Turkey and the United States. 

T-37 cockpit having side by side seating arrangement, provides better opportunities to both instructor and student pilots to teach and learn hence making it a very potent basic jet trainer.

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

Another day Another son.

















تربیتی طیارہ حادثہ، پائلٹ نے بہادری کا مظاہرہ کیا پائلٹ جان کی پرواہ کیے بغیر طیارے کو آبادی سے دور لے گئے جس سے زمین پر جانی یا مالی نقصان نہیں ہوا۔۔ عینی شاہدین نے ویڈیو شئیر کر دی


: آج صبح ایک افسوسناک واقعہ پیش آیا جب مردان میں پاک فضائیہ کا تربیتی طیارہ گر کر تباہ ہو گیا۔ ترجمان پاک فضائیہ کی جانب سے جاری بیان میں بتایا گیا کہ مردان میں پاک فضائیہ کا تربیتی طیارہ گر کر تباہ ہوا۔ جس کے نتیجے میں ایک پائلٹ شہید ہو گیا۔ طیارہ معمول کی تربیتی پرواز پر تھا جب حادثے کا شکار...




www.urdupoint.com

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## Trailer23

Sad.

When are we gonna be rid of these m.c. junk?

J-10 - J-10 - J-10. Bloody hell, what good are those J-10's gonna be if we keeping losing our youth to such prehistoric-RadioShack-dinosaur-age crap...?


----------



## baqai

Everytime i see this thread i skip a heart beat  Allah janat naseeb karay such a young chap

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## m52k85

Do these T-37s have ejection seats? Martin Baker? Very brave of such a young chap to try to fly his place out of populated area. The nation is eternally indebted to such brave men and their families. Inna lillahi wa inna ilihi rajioon

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## Marker

m52k85 said:


> Do these T-37s have ejection seats? Martin Baker? Very brave of such a young chap to try to fly his place out of populated area. The nation is eternally indebted to such brave men and their families. Inna lillahi wa inna ilihi rajioon


Twin side by side ejection seats designed by Weber Aircraft.

Shoulder ranks of deceased pilot reveals that he was in semi-final term and must have been recently transferred to BFT for his basic flying training. He may be carrying out solo training flight. Reason for crash is still not known.

May Allah subhanhuwata'ala grant young Fahad, Jannah and eternal peace, ameen.
May Allah subhanahuwata'ala bless his family with peace and sabr, ameen.

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## SQ8

Trailer23 said:


> Sad.
> 
> When are we gonna be rid of these m.c. junk?
> 
> J-10 - J-10 - J-10. Bloody hell, what good are those J-10's gonna be if we keeping losing our youth to such prehistoric-RadioShack-dinosaur-age crap...?


Whenever everyone in Pakistan pays tax . There is not going to be any Mon or Salwa for Bani Bakistan no matter how many crocodile tears they shed while they litter their streets and engage or tolerate corruption daily.

T-37 are still fairly good jets and the PAF knows how to maintain them - however, with so many moving parts there is always things to go wrong.

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## Raider 21

Marker said:


> Twin side by side ejection seats designed by Weber Aircraft.
> 
> *Shoulder ranks of deceased pilot reveals that he was in semi-final term and must have been recently transferred to BFT for his basic flying training. He may be carrying out solo training flight. Reason for crash is still not known*.
> 
> May Allah subhanhuwata'ala grant young Fahad, Jannah and eternal peace, ameen.
> May Allah subhanahuwata'ala bless his family with peace and sabr, ameen.


Very unfortunate. And he was on second or third solo flight. Nothing has been released yet from PAF regarding the cause of the crash, and if it is indeed pilot error, they'll keep the tabs low on that. For now the shaheed term markets well.

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## ghazi52

No wonder why heaven is beautiful because it is full of Jewels like Aviation cadet Fahad Shaheed. Who gave his last breathe in harness. To Allah we belong & to Allah we shall return may the departed soul rest in eternal peace Ameen ...

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## alibaz




----------



## Chak Bamu

Just saw this. I was hoping that it would be someone posting a question or something.

Innalillah wa Inna Ilaihi Rajioun. RIP young cadet. Your journey ended way too soon.

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## Side-Winder

My junior from the Academy. He was in semi final term. 4 sqn.

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## Areesh

Sudarshan said:


> Reportedly both died



Both?? One died


----------



## AeroEngineer

Side-Winder said:


> My junior from the Academy. He was in semi final term. 4 sqn.


The shoulder tapes appear red so this can’t be right.


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## Side-Winder

AeroEngineer said:


> The shoulder tapes appear red so this can’t be right.



Flying sqns are always different in coverall. Blue tapes in quarter final, red tapes in semi final. 
He weared yellow tapes outside flying wing with working uniform (blues)


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## AeroEngineer

Side-Winder said:


> Flying sqns are always different in coverall. Blue tapes in quarter final, red tapes in semi final.
> He weared yellow tapes outside flying wing with working uniform (blues)
> View attachment 779557
> View attachment 779558


Could be the case now though don’t recall this being the case that PFT was blue and BFT red but then that was a lifetime ago so maybe the memory is not what it used to be


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## Marker

AeroEngineer said:


> Could be the case now though don’t recall this being the case that PFT was blue and BFT red but then that was a lifetime ago so maybe the memory is not what it used to be


There is another possibility. May be he was transferred to red squadron due to strength parity. 

There is always lot of iteration during PFT and BFT cycle. May be red squadron was affected more.


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## Side-Winder

AeroEngineer said:


> Could be the case now though don’t recall this being the case that PFT was blue and BFT red but then that was a lifetime ago so maybe the memory is not what it used to be



Sir,
PFT, BFT both have 2 sqns each. Blue and red. I was refering to his pictures below.

The point being, wing 2 cadets (3 & 4 sqn) dont wear their sqn tapes in coverall.

@Marker - there are only 2 sqns in flying wing. Blue and red. His academy sqn was 4 (yellows)

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## Areesh

Side-Winder said:


> Flying sqns are always different in coverall. Blue tapes in quarter final, red tapes in semi final.
> He weared yellow tapes outside flying wing with working uniform (blues)
> View attachment 779557
> View attachment 779558



RIP Young man 

May Allah bless you with jannah


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## Talon

Raider 21 said:


> Very unfortunate. And he was on second or third solo flight. Nothing has been released yet from PAF regarding the cause of the crash, and if it is indeed pilot error, they'll keep the tabs low on that. For now the shaheed term markets well.


Not saying in reference to this one but cadets taking cellphones on their missions has become a routine and it's a very dangerous thing. Not very long ago, saw a video of a cadet landing a T-37 while recording himself from phone..that cadet also passed away ( but not from a crash ) .

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## AeroEngineer

Side-Winder said:


> Sir,
> PFT, BFT both have 2 sqns each. Blue and red. I was refering to his pictures below.
> 
> The point being, wing 2 cadets (3 & 4 sqn) dont wear their sqn tapes in coverall.
> 
> @Marker - there are only 2 sqns in flying wing. Blue and red. His academy sqn was 4 (yellows)


You are correct I have a vague recollection now. But it also happens that to maintain parity between squadrons, cadets are sometimes moved from one squadron to another, that’s what I thought when I saw in qtr final he had blue tapes and in semi he had red. Thanks for the refresher.

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## PDF

Can anyone inform me which aircraft crashed on 5 April 2002 near Attock/Pindi Gheb?

Was it F-7P p or F-7PG? Or was it A-5/F-6?








PAF aircraft crashes near Pindigheb, pilot safe | The Express Tribune


No loss of life or damage to infrastructure was reported on the ground




tribune.com.pk


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## PDF

It will be great if someone can also find out details of the following. I am trying to collect some information on PAF crashes in past.

1. 20-MAR-2001 Near Thal Desert
2. 04-OCT-2000 Near Jhang
3. 05-MAY-1999 Near Mianwali AB
4. 20-JAN-1997 Near Chakwal Pilot F/O Syed Ahmar Tamkee (Shaheed)
5. 06-FEB-1996 Near Manser Camp
6. 12-JAN-1986 SW of ISB on training Flight
7. 03-MAR-1987 Twin Seater Training flight in Karachi
8. 13-JUL-1974 Near Karachi


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## baqai

Hodor said:


> Not saying in reference to this one but cadets taking cellphones on their missions has become a routine and it's a very dangerous thing. Not very long ago, saw a video of a cadet landing a T-37 while recording himself from phone..that cadet also passed away ( but not from a crash ) .



Action Camera's with helmet mounts or normal mounts are dirt cheap now days if they DO want to have that instagram post why the heck just get one of those cameras


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## PDF

Sifar zero said:


> Can anyone list crashes of both Mirage variants in use of PAF over the years.
> @iLION12345_1 @Windjammer



*Mirage III/V Known Crashes*

datetyperegistrationoperatorfat.location7-Feb-20Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force (PAF)0near Shorkot, Jhang districy, Punjab province2-May-17Dassault Mirage IIIEL00-90422 OCU PAF (Pakistan Air Force)0Athara Hazari area, near Jhang18-Oct-16Mirage921Pakistan Air Force (PAF)1Musharraf colony, Karachi4-Mar-15Dassault Mirage 5Pakistan Air Force (PAF)2near Dera Ismail Khan1-Dec-14Dassault Mirage 5Pakistan Air Force (PAF)0Athara Hazari, Jhang district, Punjab21-Nov-14Dassault Mirage 5DD7 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)1Kirthar Mountains, Gadap Town near Karachi1-Oct-14Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force0near Quetta3-Jun-14Dassault Mirage 5DD04-003Pakistan Air Force (PAF)2Near Baldia Ittehad Town16-Jan-14Dassault Mirage IIIDP27 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)2Qadirabad, Mandi Bahauddin, Punjab22-Nov-12Dassault Mirage 5EF25 Sqn Pakistan Air Force1Near Kot Shakir, Hussnainabad15-Aug-12Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force (PAF)0Near Bhakkar12-Jun-12Dassault Mirage 5DDPakistan Air Force (PAF)0Near Uthal, Balochistan11-May-12Dassault Mirage IIIEA90-5157 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)0Balochistan, 30 km from Karachi19-Oct-11Dassault Mirage 5PA38 Sqn Pakistan Air Force1Uthal, Lasbela district, Balochistan3-May-11Dassault Mirage 5Pakistani Army1Jhang district16-Dec-09Dassault Mirage V Ef96-706Pakistan Air Force0Durrab Lake, Kallar Kahar18-Mar-08Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force022 km west of Rajanpur25-Apr-07Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force (PAF)0near Jhang20-Apr-06Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force (PAF)04 miles west of Masroor Air Base11-Sep-05Dassault Mirage III5 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)1near Mianwali, Punjab25-Aug-05Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force (PAF)0170 (105 miles) east of Karachi27-Jul-05Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force (PAF)0Basal, 50 miles (80km) southwest of Islamabad5-Aug-04Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force0ca 30 mi NE of Quetta16-Oct-03Dassault Mirage 5Pakistan Air Force02 mi E of Quaid-e-Azam International Airport30-Sep-03Dassault Mirage III or 5Pakistan Air Force0Hub12-Jul-03Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force1near Shorkot in Punjab province24-Jan-02Dassault Mirage 5PA37 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)1ca 20 mi S of Karachi26-Jul-01Dassault Mirage IIIOAPakistan Air Force120 mi of Masroor AB30-May-01Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force0near Mainwali, Punjap26-Apr-01Dassault Mirage 5EF96-752Pakistan Air Force0near Basal, Attock12-Sep-00Dassault Mirage IIIEAPakistan Air Force0near Masroor AB5-Jul-00Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force040 mi N of Masroor AFB6-Jun-00Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force26-Oct-99Dassault Mirage IIIE7 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)0near Masroor, Karachi13-Dec-97Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force1Masroor AB19-Mar-95Dassault Mirage IIIEP67-1085 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)015-Jan-95Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force015-Jun-94Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force0Sind Province27-Sep-93Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force023-Aug-93Dassault Mirage IIIDPPakistan Air Force1Masroor Air Base3-May-93Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force07-Nov-92Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force01-Nov-92Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force018-May-92Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force08-Sep-91Dassault Mirage5 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)1near Peshawar8-Mar-89Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force06-Jul-88Dassault Mirage IIIDPPakistan Air Force2near Karachi23-Mar-87Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force1Islamabad

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## GriffinsRule

PDF said:


> It will be great if someone can also find out details of the following. I am trying to collect some information on PAF crashes in past.
> 
> 1. 20-MAR-2001 Near Thal Desert
> 2. 04-OCT-2000 Near Jhang
> 3. 05-MAY-1999 Near Mianwali AB
> 4. 20-JAN-1997 Near Chakwal Pilot F/O Syed Ahmar Tamkee (Shaheed)
> 5. 06-FEB-1996 Near Manser Camp
> 6. 12-JAN-1986 SW of ISB on training Flight
> 7. 03-MAR-1987 Twin Seater Training flight in Karachi
> 8. 13-JUL-1974 Near Karachi


I am missing most of the types of air craft involved in these as well, however I think the May 99 crash would be an FT-5 as it was reported as a training aircraft and both pilots ejected safely. No 1 Sqn operated out of Mianwali. 

Feb 2, 1996 I had listed as an FT-7.

Is your Jan 12, 1986 crash where FO Hasnat was killed in the crash near Sargodha? That was an F-6.

I don't have the 1987 in my file. Is it different from the 3/4/1986 crash of F-6 with FO Zaheer?

Do you have the types for the two crashes in April 12 and April 24, 1998? The April 12 happened at Risalpur so might have been a T-37.


PDF said:


> *Mirage III/V Known Crashes*
> 
> datetyperegistrationoperatorfat.location7-Feb-20Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force (PAF)0near Shorkot, Jhang districy, Punjab province2-May-17Dassault Mirage IIIEL00-90422 OCU PAF (Pakistan Air Force)0Athara Hazari area, near Jhang18-Oct-16Mirage921Pakistan Air Force (PAF)1Musharraf colony, Karachi4-Mar-15Dassault Mirage 5Pakistan Air Force (PAF)2near Dera Ismail Khan1-Dec-14Dassault Mirage 5Pakistan Air Force (PAF)0Athara Hazari, Jhang district, Punjab21-Nov-14Dassault Mirage 5DD7 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)1Kirthar Mountains, Gadap Town near Karachi1-Oct-14Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force0near Quetta3-Jun-14Dassault Mirage 5DD04-003Pakistan Air Force (PAF)2Near Baldia Ittehad Town16-Jan-14Dassault Mirage IIIDP27 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)2Qadirabad, Mandi Bahauddin, Punjab22-Nov-12Dassault Mirage 5EF25 Sqn Pakistan Air Force1Near Kot Shakir, Hussnainabad15-Aug-12Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force (PAF)0Near Bhakkar12-Jun-12Dassault Mirage 5DDPakistan Air Force (PAF)0Near Uthal, Balochistan11-May-12Dassault Mirage IIIEA90-5157 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)0Balochistan, 30 km from Karachi19-Oct-11Dassault Mirage 5PA38 Sqn Pakistan Air Force1Uthal, Lasbela district, Balochistan3-May-11Dassault Mirage 5Pakistani Army1Jhang district16-Dec-09Dassault Mirage V Ef96-706Pakistan Air Force0Durrab Lake, Kallar Kahar18-Mar-08Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force022 km west of Rajanpur25-Apr-07Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force (PAF)0near Jhang20-Apr-06Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force (PAF)04 miles west of Masroor Air Base11-Sep-05Dassault Mirage III5 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)1near Mianwali, Punjab25-Aug-05Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force (PAF)0170 (105 miles) east of Karachi27-Jul-05Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force (PAF)0Basal, 50 miles (80km) southwest of Islamabad5-Aug-04Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force0ca 30 mi NE of Quetta16-Oct-03Dassault Mirage 5Pakistan Air Force02 mi E of Quaid-e-Azam International Airport30-Sep-03Dassault Mirage III or 5Pakistan Air Force0Hub12-Jul-03Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force1near Shorkot in Punjab province24-Jan-02Dassault Mirage 5PA37 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)1ca 20 mi S of Karachi26-Jul-01Dassault Mirage IIIOAPakistan Air Force120 mi of Masroor AB30-May-01Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force0near Mainwali, Punjap26-Apr-01Dassault Mirage 5EF96-752Pakistan Air Force0near Basal, Attock12-Sep-00Dassault Mirage IIIEAPakistan Air Force0near Masroor AB5-Jul-00Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force040 mi N of Masroor AFB6-Jun-00Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force26-Oct-99Dassault Mirage IIIE7 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)0near Masroor, Karachi13-Dec-97Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force1Masroor AB19-Mar-95Dassault Mirage IIIEP67-1085 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)015-Jan-95Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force015-Jun-94Dassault Mirage IIIPakistan Air Force0Sind Province27-Sep-93Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force023-Aug-93Dassault Mirage IIIDPPakistan Air Force1Masroor Air Base3-May-93Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force07-Nov-92Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force01-Nov-92Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force018-May-92Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force08-Sep-91Dassault Mirage5 Sqn PAF (Pakistan Air Force)1near Peshawar8-Mar-89Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force06-Jul-88Dassault Mirage IIIDPPakistan Air Force2near Karachi23-Mar-87Dassault MiragePakistan Air Force1Islamabad


I have some more than what you have listed here. Will share later.

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## PDF

GriffinsRule said:


> I don't have the 1987 in my file. Is it different from the 3/4/1986 crash of F-6 with FO Zaheer?









I don't have others... I was just sorting and collecting the data from https://aviation-safety.net/ into excel. I wanted to know of the missing data as it's score ago information.
PAF's F16 crash record: 
Last 3 crashes are 10.5 and 14.5 years apart from one another.

DateTypeSerial No.MartyrdomLocation11-Mar-20General Dynamics F-16A MLU Fighting Falcon927301near Shakarparian, Islamabad17-Jul-09General Dynamics F-16A81-09131Khushab, Khushab District, Punjab province22-Oct-94General Dynamics F-16A Fighting Falcon827010near Sarghoda, Punjab26-Apr-94General Dynamics F-16A17-Mar-94General Dynamics F-16A857211near Sargodha10-Nov-93General Dynamics F-16B Fighting Falcon846070near Sarghoda AB, Punjab27-Oct-91General Dynamics F-16A857250near Attock, Punjab16-Jun-91General Dynamics F-16A857230near Kamra PAFB, Kamra, Attock District, Punjab4-Sep-89General Dynamics F-16A Fighting Falcon847121near Sarghoda, Punjab29-Apr-87General Dynamics F-16A-15S Fighting Falcon857200Pakistan/Afghanistan Border18-Dec-86General Dynamics F-16B Fighting Falcon856090Sarghoda AB, Punjab


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## GriffinsRule

DATETYPESERIAL NOLOCATIONCASUALTIES

1/29/1985Mirage--3/13/1984Mirage11/29/1983Mirage11/10/1983Mirage 3RP111/10/1983Mirage 3RP67-201012/00/1982Mirage19/7/1982Mirage5/15/1982Mirage9/14/1981Mirage8/10/1981MirageMirageRafiqui AB0MirageRafiqui AB04/10/1978Mirage10/11/1977Mirage9/8/1977Mirage4/3/1976Mirage12/21/1974Mirage 3EP7/27/1974Mirage 3EP7/26/1971Mirage 3EP67-1030

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## WinterFangs

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506249571009187847

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## The Eagle

WinterFangs said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506249571009187847



Local said, pilot is in there. I don't know how the man sees the pilot into fire like that but, I pray for no loss of life.

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## WinterFangs

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506253631913406474
Inna Lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un

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## Rahil khan

According to news channel both pilots embraced shahadat. Inna Lillah e Wa Inna Alaih e Raajeoon. Massive loss. 😔


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## Skywalker

Inna Lillah e Wa Inna Alaih e Raajeoon


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## khail007

If it is Saab MFI-17, indeed there is no ejection system.

Still, pray for the lives of the pilots.

As news of shahadat of both pilots is pouring in:





Patience to the family/friends of both shaheeds, may ALLAH SWT elevate them both in JANNAH - AMEEN.

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## Windjammer

khail007 said:


> If it is Saab MFI-17, indeed there is no ejection system.
> 
> Still, pray for the lives of the pilots.


It's not Saab MFI-17 but a Super Mashaq. 
Sadly both the occupants have been martyred. Reportedly the training pilot was from the Navy.

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## Clairvoyant

Just look at how insensitive we are as a nation. Really sad and shocking that even in such a painful situation mobiles are out and people are making videos.

Reportedly one of the pilots was Wing Commander Asfandyar who belonged to the nearby village. May both rest in peace.

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## Windjammer

Clairvoyant said:


> Just look at how insensitive we are as a nation. Really sad and shocking that even in such a painful situation mobiles are out and people are making videos.
> 
> Reportedly one of the pilots was a Wing Commander who belonged to the nearby village. May they rest in peace.


Wrong, one was a Squadron Leader Asfand Yar and Naval cadet Zia.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Very unfortunate incident indeed 😔.

May Allah bless the Shaheeds with high reward.
Allah Kareem un ki family ko ajr e Azeem ata farmaye


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## Clairvoyant

Windjammer said:


> Wrong, one was a Squadron Leader Asfand Yar and Naval cadet Zia.



I stand corrected. He was the classfellow of my brother in school and friends with my brothers. Really sad loss for the whole area. Was a C130 pilot.

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## Windjammer

R.I.P Brave Warriors.
Squadron Leader Asfand Yar and Lt. Cdr. Zia.

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## Irfan Baloch

rest in peace to the dead in the lineof duty.

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## baqai

Inna lilahay wa inna alaihay rajion 

*sigh* another time this threads updates, another time my heart sinks, i open the thread in hope and pray that it's only the loss of the machine not the souls

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## White privilege

Fly high , Soar eternal warriors.....

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## cssniper

Old soldiers never die, they just fade away. 😣


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## rAli

Inna lillahi wa inna elaihi rajioon.

May Allah SWT grants their families Sabr-e-Jameel


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## Clairvoyant

Video of the crash.








تربیتی طیارہ گرنے کی براہ راست منظر😢 ورسک روڈ شاہ دل بانڈہ (گاڑہ تاجک) میں تربيتی طيارہ گر کر تباہ ۔۔ دونوں پائیلٹ شہید ۔۔ جس میں ایک پائیلٹ اسفندیار کا... | By What is Going on in Peshawar 3 | Facebook


6.4K views, 44 likes, 0 loves, 14 comments, 12 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from What is Going on in Peshawar 3: تربیتی طیارہ گرنے کی براہ راست منظر😢 ورسک روڈ شاہ دل بانڈہ (گاڑہ تاجک) میں تربيتی...




fb.watch


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## RescueRanger

Inna lillahi wa inna elaihi rajioon. Yes great pilot, may Allah grant them both a beautiful home in paradise and may Allah grant his family courage, serenity and courage during this time.

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## Windjammer



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## Arsalan345

Loss of controls. A right turn turned into an out-of-control descent. Low altitude means no chance of recovery from the spiral. they would have recovered if they were on a high altitude.

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## Vortex

_Inna lillah wa inna ilayhi raaji'uun_​
Very sad loss. May Allah open the doors of greatest Jannat and give strength and sabr to their families.

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## alibaz

May the fallen soldiers rest in eternal peace.


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## Solidify

There should be some backup emergency plan for pilot, how does a aircraft fall out of sky? 
PAF does not operate Mig-21s.

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## mshan44

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506366904457474057

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## GriffinsRule

mshan44 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506366904457474057


Pilot attempted an inverted loop? Reminds me of another Mushshak crash a couple of years ago over the village of the pilot that killed both him and the trainee when the he performed an aerobatic maneuver at low level.

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## Great Janjua

mshan44 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506366904457474057


Rest in peace loss of life is the extreme price we pay. Also kudos to the guy who was recording he seemed dumbfounded when the aircraft took a nosedive. Love for soldiers will never die.


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## khail007

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 826286



The patch on his uniform is of No:6 Squadron?


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## SecularNationalist

Rip 
Very Sad Incident.



GriffinsRule said:


> Pilot attempted an inverted loop? Reminds me of another Mushshak crash a couple of years ago over the village of the pilot that killed both him and the trainee when the he performed an aerobatic maneuver at low level.


My childhood friend and neighbor brothers was died doing so in 2009 along with his instructor .

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## Riz

RIP warriors, Very sad incident indeed

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## SD 10

Inna lilahi wa inna ilahi rajiun......Is it just me or really our crashes have increased post feb 2019?


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## SQ8

I feel he was attempting a roll but just when he goes past inverted the wings flick back as if locked back to level and he goes down. Was it a failure of controls or a misjudged loop?

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## MastanKhan

SQ8 said:


> I feel he was attempting a roll but just when he goes past inverted the wings flick back as if locked back to level and he goes down. Was it a failure of controls or a misjudged loop?



Hi,

He was flying outside of the flying limits of the aircraft.

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> He was flying outside of the flying limits of the aircraft.


You’re right - and at this altitude so unfortunately from this limited angle it feels like showboating gone wrong. But it is very speculative based on what is visible

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## abdullah_khan

Assalamu Alaikum all of you.

I am Abdullah Khan. I am a medical doctor by profession.

I want to share some important information with you. Sorry for the length of the post. But please read it till end as two very important pieces of information are in this post.

As we all know, *PAF MFI-17 Super Mushshak* Airplane crashed on *22 March, 2022* near Peshawar in which two pilots embraced Shahadat.

One pilot was *Squadron Leader Asfandyar* from Pakistan Air Force. Coincidentally, his plane crashed in his own home town, that is, Warsak, Peshawar. The plane was completely controlled by Asfandyar at the time of crash.

The other pilot was *Commander Zia* from Pakistan Navy. Note that he was one rank senior than Asfandyar. He was not some new cadet learning to fly as some people believe by mistake. Rather he was a very experienced pilot and instructor. He served 16 years in Pakistan Navy and was also the Captain of Pakistan Navy airplane P-3C Orion. His home town was Bagh Dushkhel, Talash, Lower Dir.

Commander Zia was my first cousin. I was greatly moved by the demise of Zia bhai. He was the most loving person I have ever seen in my whole family.

A few days after the crash, I was obsessed to find out the cause of this accident because I generally have a great interest in aviation, especially in documentary videos discussing the causes of aviation accidents. I felt like I will not be able to sleep at night unless someone tells me some possible cause of this accident.

I found a video of the crash of this airplane. Please watch this video. It is a new video, not shared here previously. Here is the link.

bit.ly/mushak

After finding the video, I quickly uploaded it to my own Youtube channel so as not to lose it in future.

I emailed this video link to some 25+ pilots, organizations and institutes and asked them about the possible cause of the crash.

I did not receive any reply from Pakistan Air Force or Army or Navy or any other Pakistani institute or organization. A few foreign organizations apologized that they cannot comment on it. Most of the foreign pilots I contacted also did not reply.

However, one organization did reply. It is an international organization of general aviation pilots named *AOPA*. I got really satisfied to get an answer and reply to my curiosities.

Here is the comment of a senior pilot and instructor from AOPA organization that I received:



> "What I saw was an intentional pitch-up to a roll to inverted, which is standard procedure in most aerobatic airplanes. After the airplane rolled inverted, however, there was an immediate entry to a nearly vertical descent. In the descent two distinct things happened - 1. power was reduced and 2. the plane was rolled left and right a bit.
> 
> There was no sign of the pilot trying to pull out of the dive. This, coupled with the fact that the airplane immediately entered a dive after rolling inverted, leaves me to believe the elevator control broke. Firm forward elevator is required to hold an inverted airplane upright. My educated guess is that as soon as the pilot pushed forward, the elevator control failed, causing the airplane to instantly nose down. That fact, and that there was no detected attempt to pull-out of the ensuing dive further cements this possibility."



WHY I SHARED ALL THIS WITH YOU?

Because I want that the above video link and the above comment of the pilot regarding the video to reach the investigators who are currently in the process of investigating this crash. These two pieces of information will greatly help them in establishing the cause of this accident. They will be able to figure out the factors responsible and it will help to prevent such accidents from happening again in the future.

If you can somehow do it, do share the above video link and comment with the investigators of this crash. Or help it reach them in some way.

Thanks a lot. JAZAKALLAH.

Abdullah Khan
abdullah.aimc@gmail.com
www.facebook.com/akiqbalian

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## SQ8

abdullah_khan said:


> Assalamu Alaikum all of you.
> 
> I am Abdullah Khan. I am a medical doctor by profession.
> 
> I want to share some important information with you. Sorry for the length of the post. But please read it till end as two very important pieces of information are in this post.
> 
> As we all know, *PAF MFI-17 Super Mushshak* Airplane crashed on *22 March, 2022* near Peshawar in which two pilots embraced Shahadat.
> 
> One pilot was *Squadron Leader Asfandyar* from Pakistan Air Force. Coincidentally, his plane crashed in his own home town, that is, Warsak, Peshawar. The plane was completely controlled by Asfandyar at the time of crash.
> 
> The other pilot was *Commander Zia* from Pakistan Navy. Note that he was one rank senior than Asfandyar. He was not some new cadet learning to fly as some people believe by mistake. Rather he was a very experienced pilot and instructor. He served 16 years in Pakistan Navy and was also the Captain of Pakistan Navy airplane P-3C Orion. His home town was Bagh Dushkhel, Talash, Lower Dir.
> 
> Commander Zia was my first cousin. I was greatly moved by the demise of Zia bhai. He was the most loving person I have ever seen in my whole family.
> 
> A few days after the crash, I was obsessed to find out the cause of this accident because I generally have a great interest in aviation, especially in documentary videos discussing the causes of aviation accidents. I felt like I will not be able to sleep at night unless someone tells me some possible cause of this accident.
> 
> I found a video of the crash of this airplane. Please watch this video. It is a new video, not shared here previously. Here is the link.
> 
> bit.ly/mushak
> 
> After finding the video, I quickly uploaded it to my own Youtube channel so as not to lose it in future.
> 
> I emailed this video link to some 25+ pilots, organizations and institutes and asked them about the possible cause of the crash.
> 
> I did not receive any reply from Pakistan Air Force or Army or Navy or any other Pakistani institute or organization. A few foreign organizations apologized that they cannot comment on it. Most of the foreign pilots I contacted also did not reply.
> 
> However, one organization did reply. It is an international organization of general aviation pilots named *AOPA*. I got really satisfied to get an answer and reply to my curiosities.
> 
> Here is the comment of a senior pilot and instructor from AOPA organization that I received:
> 
> 
> 
> WHY I SHARED ALL THIS WITH YOU?
> 
> Because I want that the above video link and the above comment of the pilot regarding the video to reach the investigators who are currently in the process of investigating this crash. These two pieces of information will greatly help them in establishing the cause of this accident. They will be able to figure out the factors responsible and it will help to prevent such accidents from happening again in the future.
> 
> If you can somehow do it, do share the above video link and comment with the investigators of this crash. Or help it reach them in some way.
> 
> Thanks a lot. JAZAKALLAH.
> 
> Abdullah Khan
> abdullah.aimc@gmail.com
> www.facebook.com/akiqbalian


I am sorry for your loss and hope both you and his family are granted patience. I know P-3 pilots myself and they are generally very good fliers due to the long hours and difficult low level flight profiles they have to undertake.

Thank you for the effort to investigate but sharing it across the forum will not get it more attention and detracts from the other discussion s.

Yes, that explanation does look logical as it does look like the aircraft had control failure.
Generally, these are looked at during maintenance cycles and at times during preflight as well( I used to do this during my training on the Piper Warrior). However, the low level aerobatics are also ill advised especially over a populated area so not sure who was in command that initiated that maneuver.

I am sure the investigators are taking that into account but be advised that IF it turns out to be a combination of maintenance neglect and pilot error in doing those aerobatics at low level where recovery or escape was not an option these will likely never be released to the public such as me or you. It may be that Commander Zia’s course mates or squadron mates might be made aware of the conclusion.

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## abdullah_khan

SQ8 said:


> I am sorry for your loss and hope both you and his family are granted patience. I know P-3 pilots myself and they are generally very good fliers due to the long hours and difficult low level flight profiles they have to undertake.
> 
> Thank you for the effort to investigate but sharing it across the forum will not get it more attention and detracts from the other discussion s.
> 
> Yes, that explanation does look logical as it does look like the aircraft had control failure.
> Generally, these are looked at during maintenance cycles and at times during preflight as well( I used to do this during my training on the Piper Warrior). However, the low level aerobatics are also ill advised especially over a populated area so not sure who was in command that initiated that maneuver.
> 
> I am sure the investigators are taking that into account but be advised that IF it turns out to be a combination of maintenance neglect and pilot error in doing those aerobatics at low level where recovery or escape was not an option these will likely never be released to the public such as me or you. It may be that Commander Zia’s course mates or squadron mates might be made aware of the conclusion.


Thanks a lot for your reply.

I am sorry to spam different threads. I didn't mean to do so. I was not fully aware of the rules here. I will avoid it in the future.

Yes I know that results of such investigations are usually not made public. And I already know that PAF will never release such reports to public or even relatives as it is seen as defaming for them. Probably that was one reason I got even more curious to find the cause of it from other people as I knew PAF is not going to tell me anyway.

It is possible that it is a combination of pilot error (non-compliance with the aerobatics rules) and maintenance lapses. Maybe it was just a game of luck and no maintenance lapse is involved at all. But a mechanical failure was indeed involved in it. And a control failure did happen. And that was the only part I was trying to know during my whole search endeavour.

I am not expecting any further details about it from the authorities anyway. I was just going out-of-the way to share the video with the investigating bodies for helping them. As this specific crash video is not viral on social media yet.

Thanks again for your time. JAZAKALLAH KHAIR.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

ARY news is giving breaking news---pakistan mission Congo---a puma helicopter went down---8 military personal passed away. May Allah bless their souls.

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## Imran Khan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> ARY news is giving breaking news---pakistan mission Congo---a puma helicopter went down---8 military personal passed away. May Allah bless their souls.


6 not 8 sir


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## iLION12345_1

Imran Khan said:


> 6 not 8 sir


8 total, of which 6 Pakistanis, one Russian, one Serbian.

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## Chak Bamu

Very sad news. RIP warriors. Inna lillah wa inna ilaihi rajioun.

There are unconfirmed reports that the helicopter was targeted by M23 group during its attacks on Congolese army. If the reports are true, then whoever targeted UN Peacekeepers must pay a very steep price.









U.N. chopper crashes in eastern Congo, 8 peacekeepers killed, army blames rebels


Eight peacekeepers were killed when a U.N. helicopter crashed in eastern Democratic Republic of Congo on Tuesday amid rebel fighting, the United Nations said.




www.reuters.com


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## SQ8

abdullah_khan said:


> Thanks a lot for your reply.
> 
> I am sorry to spam different threads. I didn't mean to do so. I was not fully aware of the rules here. I will avoid it in the future.
> 
> Yes I know that results of such investigations are usually not made public. And I already know that PAF will never release such reports to public or even relatives as it is seen as defaming for them. Probably that was one reason I got even more curious to find the cause of it from other people as I knew PAF is not going to tell me anyway.
> 
> It is possible that it is a combination of pilot error (non-compliance with the aerobatics rules) and maintenance lapses. Maybe it was just a game of luck and no maintenance lapse is involved at all. But a mechanical failure was indeed involved in it. And a control failure did happen. And that was the only part I was trying to know during my whole search endeavour.
> 
> I am not expecting any further details about it from the authorities anyway. I was just going out-of-the way to share the video with the investigating bodies for helping them. As this specific crash video is not viral on social media yet.
> 
> Thanks again for your time. JAZAKALLAH KHAIR.


It is certain that IF a maintenance lapse is confirmed the people involved will be reprimanded severely or their careers might be in jeopardy. Generally in Pakistan because pilots are officers and maintenance people ratings the officers are able to take the maintenance people to task more than each other. 
However, it will likely come down to inspection hours and how it was carried out along with the pilot’s actions as well.

Either way, the pilot’s time was written.. many years ago a P-3C went down due to engine failure even though it has 4 of them - due to the nature of their flying they have to go as low as 100ft and losing an engine causes sudden altitude loss where a 100ft goes in less than a second. 

Even now a Pakistan Army helicopter went down due to fire and 6 Pakistanis were lost that have people who hold them dear as well. Investigation will be carried out there and perhaps the families will know or maybe they will not - the best we can do is pray for them.

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## baqai

abdullah_khan said:


> Thanks a lot for your reply.
> 
> I am sorry to spam different threads. I didn't mean to do so. I was not fully aware of the rules here. I will avoid it in the future.
> 
> Yes I know that results of such investigations are usually not made public. And I already know that PAF will never release such reports to public or even relatives as it is seen as defaming for them. Probably that was one reason I got even more curious to find the cause of it from other people as I knew PAF is not going to tell me anyway.
> 
> It is possible that it is a combination of pilot error (non-compliance with the aerobatics rules) and maintenance lapses. Maybe it was just a game of luck and no maintenance lapse is involved at all. But a mechanical failure was indeed involved in it. And a control failure did happen. And that was the only part I was trying to know during my whole search endeavour.
> 
> I am not expecting any further details about it from the authorities anyway. I was just going out-of-the way to share the video with the investigating bodies for helping them. As this specific crash video is not viral on social media yet.
> 
> Thanks again for your time. JAZAKALLAH KHAIR.



sorry to hear about your loss, you can try to get in touch with this person : https://www.youtube.com/c/CWLemoine/about and see if goes through your video, he is ex Viper pilot and he runs a very knowledgeable channel

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## Talon

Early reports coming out that a #PakistanAirForce F-7P aircraft crashed near Mianwali while on training sortie. The Pilot ejected safely with no loss of life or property on ground.

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## PanzerKiel

Hodor said:


> Early reports coming out that a #PakistanAirForce F-7P aircraft crashed near Mianwali while on training sortie. The Pilot ejected safely with no loss of life or property on ground.
> 
> View attachment 847600


Engine flameout after take-off....while bringing throttle back after AB.

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## sneakerspark

PanzerKiel said:


> Engine flameout after take-off....while bringing throttle back after AB.


Was it F7P or FT7?


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## fatman17

Hodor said:


> Early reports coming out that a #PakistanAirForce F-7P aircraft crashed near Mianwali while on training sortie. The Pilot ejected safely with no loss of life or property on ground.
> 
> View attachment 847600


Thank God the pilot is safe 🙏

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## PanzerKiel

sneakerspark said:


> Was it F7P or FT7?


PG.

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## Bilal9

I remember in a live firing exercise a few years ago, one of the BAF F-7BGs had its rocket pod explode (probably one of the rockets inside exploded in situ with the combustibles because it could not leave the chamber), the resulting impact took out one wing, unbalanced it and the aircraft went out of control - and corkscrewed into the ground in less than a second. Pilot could not react fast enough or pull up.

Some stuff in an F-7 will always be questionable in quality and it's not the fault of the Chinese. Just older unreliable technology lacking modern safety in design. It is what it is.


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## Tomcats

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1529380176689233922


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## baqai

so glad there was no human loss

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## Trailer23

sneakerspark said:


> Was it F7P or FT7?


Does it matter...? They're all crap.

The sooner we get rid of these rust buckets the safer our boys will be - let not forget the loss of life & damage on ground.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## White privilege

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 847689


This the right way to behave post ejection. Wait for the paramedics and quietly ride back to CMH to be declared fit.There can be a ton of things ,during and post ejection,that can go wrong and can hurt a human body. Once I saw a picture in which a pilot was casually slouching atop a _char pai _while contacting his base apparently through a cell phone. That was reckless, also don't do this.😄😁

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## denel

PanzerKiel said:


> Engine flameout after take-off....while bringing throttle back after AB.


It definitely is reaching a critical point where hard decisions to discontinue all F7s is most imperative. Thank fully the pilot lived; how many will continue to lose their lives not only here but also on the hiluxes (off topic)

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## johncliu88

There are still a few J-7s flying in China AF as well. Yes, they are old but for some training purposes, as long as the planes are still in good shape, they can be flied. Anyway, they are moving into the scrape yard slowly, I think.

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## Talon

White privilege said:


> This the right way to behave post ejection. Wait for the paramedics and quietly ride back to CMH to be declared fit.There can be a ton of things ,during and post ejection,that can go wrong and can hurt a human body. Once I saw a picture in which a pilot was casually slouching atop a _char pai _while contacting his base apparently through a cell phone. That was reckless, also don't do this.😄😁
> View attachment 847701


That also happened in Mianwali. 20 sqn crash 2017


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## Two banks of the River

johncliu88 said:


> There are still a few J-7s flying in China AF as well. Yes, they are old but for some training purposes, as long as the planes are still in good shape, they can be flied. Anyway, they are moving into the scrape yard slowly, I think.



The PG family came after 2000. So they are not exactly old by flying hours or even by capabilities. They are half as young as the Mirage fleet and the AM/BM fleet.

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## haroonn

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 847689


If you look closely, next to his wings, its the emblem of LIFT (Lead-In Fighter Trainer) squadron so may be an F-7P ?


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## Thrust_Vector998

haroonn said:


> If you look closely, next to his wings, its the emblem of LIFT (Lead-In Fighter Trainer) squadron so may be an F-7P ?


Cranked delta wing clearly tells it a f7pg


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## haroonn

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> Cranked delta wing clearly tells it a f7pg


I did not see that picture. Anyways, glad pilot is safe.


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## Tomcats

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1530133422403895296

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## White privilege

Hodor said:


> That also happened in Mianwali. 20 sqn crash 2017


Yes exactly, that incident.


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## GriffinsRule

Does anyone know what serial number was this F-7PG painted in the Tiger scheme for the squadrons 50th anniversay?

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