# Air Force Question Thread



## Imran Khan

can any body answer me who give pakistan F5 jets tempary in 1971 war.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## blain2

imran khan said:


> can any body answer me who give pakistan F5 jets tempary in 1971 war.



Royal Jordanian Air Force (if we are talking about Northrop Grumman F-5s and not Chinese FT-5/6).


----------



## hassan1

how i classification of paf air defence
how many units in paf air defence 
for example
radars unit
baloon baridge unit
aa guns unit 
???
i dont know more 
plz reply me


----------



## EagleEyes

blain2 said:


> Royal Jordanian Air Force (if we are talking about Northrop Grumman F-5s and not Chinese FT-5/6).



Turkey also provided F-5 with other air-to-air ammunition. Please confirm. We also recieved F-104 from Turkey.


----------



## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> Turkey also provided F-5 with other air-to-air ammunition. Please confirm. We also recieved F-104 from Turkey.



Jordanian F-5s were actually parked at Mauripur (Masroor) but never used in combat.
Turkish a/c were offered but never delivered. this is my info based on PAF history.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## blain2

yes that is correct. Nothing materialized from Turkey.


----------



## Energon

Why weren't these aircrafts used in combat? Also didn't Saudi Arabia have a sizable fleet to offer as replacement/force multipliers at the time as well?


----------



## Muradk

The F-5s has a funny story behind it.
Flt Lt Naeem took off and after about 2 min we see the OC flying running towards the Flight ops.
"So what happend Sir" "Tell that ediot to land the dame plane it does not have an ejection system installed in it we just found out they just told us a few min ago".  so actualy flytime of F-5 over a PAF base is 4 min. appox.

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## EagleEyes

blain2 said:


> yes that is correct. Nothing materialized from Turkey.



There is some air force base in Pakistan where they have the F-104 (monument or whatever) in the Turkish colors. There is a picture also that is floating around. I am guessing that was because of the "offer".


----------



## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> There is some air force base in Pakistan where they have the F-104 (monument or whatever) in the Turkish colors. There is a picture also that is floating around. I am guessing that was because of the "offer".



donated by TAF to PAF to signify the brotherly relations between the two muslim nations.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> donated by TAF to PAF to signify the brotherly relations between the two muslim nations.



How does a single plane signify the brotherly relations?


----------



## fatman17

IceCold said:


> How does a single plane signify the brotherly relations?



symbolic gesture of goodwill. Turkey supplied ammo to pakistan when the armed forces ran short after 17 days of fighting in 1965.


----------



## Imran Khan

i seen in wikipedia that pakistan take same f 5 from friendly nations in 1971 .but real is USA send F5 way of jorden.libya send staff and same air mans for F5 . but pakistan use F5 until 1977 for air supererty .these only 3 pieces of F5.


----------



## Imran Khan

TURKY sply ammo for army .end of the war there is two cargo planes came from turky with ammo but we cant use .becase war that time was over.


----------



## Muradk

imran khan said:


> i seen in wikipedia that pakistan take same f 5 from friendly nations in 1971 .but real is USA send F5 way of jorden.libya send staff and same air mans for F5 . but pakistan use F5 until 1977 for air supererty .these only 3 pieces of F5.



Sorry your info about the F-5 is wrong we got 3 in total and total air time flown by PAF pilots were 5 min hardly. They did not have the cartridges under the ejection seat. so we did not fy them and gave them back. with thanks.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Imran Khan

Freedom Fighter in Service with Pakistan


----------



## Imran Khan

that link i missed sir may be i have wrong info but i read abut F5 was in service until 1977 .and thanks for this info.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

PAF should configure JF-17s and J-10s fuel tank, to perform the task of air to air refueling, accommodating each other with enough fuel if run out to land safely, as it will be very cost effective for Il-78 to do that job. 
But the primary job for providing extended fuel to squadrons will be performed by Il-78!


----------



## Muradk

23march said:


> PAF should configure JF-17s and J-10s fuel tank, to perform the task of air to air refueling, accommodating each other with enough fuel if run out to land safely, as it will be very cost effective for Il-78 to do that job.
> But the primary job for providing extended fuel to squadrons will be performed by Il-78!



J-10 has the capability of A-t-A Refueling , JF-17 wount have any problems everything will come with time. 
a small question for all aviation fans.
PAF broke the record of doing a loop with 16 f-86 sabers, does any one know what happed after the loop?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

Muradk said:


> J-10 has the capability of A-t-A Refueling , JF-17 wount have any problems everything will come with time.
> a small question for all aviation fans.
> PAF broke the record of doing a loop with 16 f-86 sabers, does any one know what happed after the loop?



hope they landed safely!


----------



## fatman17

The PAF "Falcons" make history:

2nd Feb-58, was a significant day in the history of the PAF. on that day for the 1st time a formation of 16 fighters (F-86 Sabres) performed a loop during an air display at masroor air base. the team was led by war-time leader of the PAF, Wing Cmdr MZ Masud who was awarded HJ in the 65 war.

The Team:

WC MZ Masud
SL Nazir Latif
SL SU Khan
SL G.Haider
SL SM Ahmed
SL Aftab Ahmed
SL M Sadruddin
FL Sajjad "Nosey" Haider
FL AU Ahmed
FL Hameed Anwar
FL Minir ud din Ahmed
FL M Arshad
FL Jamal A. Khan
FL AMK Lodhi
FL Waqar Azim
FL MI Middlecoat

wow what a illustrious Team of War Heroes and Air Marshals of later days.


----------



## EagleEyes

> FL AMK Lodhi



I wonder who this is.


----------



## Muradk

WebMaster said:


> I wonder who this is.



AMK Lodhi ( Arshad Muhammad Kamran Lodhi ) he retired in 59 later he joined PIA.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Muradk said:


> J-10 has the capability of A-t-A Refueling , JF-17 wount have any problems everything will come with time.
> a small question for all aviation fans.
> PAF broke the record of doing a loop with 16 f-86 sabers, does any one know what happed after the loop?



JF-17 is fited with air to air refueling prob, and so is J-10. but my point was the picture. buddy to buddy refueling.


----------



## blain2

SL SM Ahmed was my very close relative. May he rest in peace.


----------



## Muradk

blain2 said:


> SL SM Ahmed was my very close relative. May he rest in peace.



You mean Wing Commander SM Ahmed ( Sitara-i-Jurat) 1971 .
what relations did you have with him, I flew 2 missions with him over dekha.
God Bless his soul Jewel of a guy and an excellent fighter pilot.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Muradk

Blain :
Dec 4th 1971 was the longest day in the history of PAF in dekha 14 sqd.
we did 128 missions that day. I will write it tomorrow on this thread its 2.24 am.


----------



## baqai

I would like to know that we heavily invest in multi role platform but what about taking a look at some dedicated platforms like Tornado to replace A-5's?


----------



## blain2

Muradk said:


> Blain :
> Dec 4th 1971 was the longest day in the history of PAF in dekha 14 sqd.
> we did 128 missions that day. I will write it tomorrow on this thread its 2.24 am.



Do write about it, would love to know more. The relative of mine who took part in the loop died in an air crash in the 60s while serving with the PAF. I sent you a pm about it too.


----------



## JK!

baqai said:


> I would like to know that we heavily invest in multi role platform but what about taking a look at some dedicated platforms like Tornado to replace A-5's?



There is a two seat version of J10 which would be the ideal platform for this role.


----------



## Keysersoze

baqai said:


> I would like to know that we heavily invest in multi role platform but what about taking a look at some dedicated platforms like Tornado to replace A-5's?



This is a interesting question.....I am sure it was covered before. But the shortfalls of the available aircraft during previous conflicts, created the purchase of the A-5. So would there be a dedicated ground attack wing of multi role aircraft?


----------



## fatman17

Keysersoze said:


> This is a interesting question.....I am sure it was covered before. But the shortfalls of the available aircraft during previous conflicts, created the purchase of the A-5. So would there be a dedicated ground attack wing of multi role aircraft?



the JF-17 is expected to perform many roles for the PAF once fully inducted and integrated in the PAF by 2014.

1. Air-Defence.
2. Interdiction - ground attack.
3. ant-ship.


----------



## Awaaz

fatman17 said:


> the JF-17 is expected to perform many roles for the PAF once fully inducted and integrated in the PAF by 2014.
> 
> 1. Air-Defence.
> 2. Interdiction - ground attack.
> 3. ant-ship.



I believe so too, its a dream come true for pakistan. As the plane is more tested an engaged with other planes such as f16 etc. It will give paf a good understanding of the plane and also how they can make improvements for the future batches.


----------



## HAIDER

PAF ever use JATO or ZEL takeoff ?


----------



## MastanKhan

Haider,

I believe tha PAF had an older version of C 130 that came with the jato kit on the sides. Other than that sample, I don't think any other plane had that option----I can be corrected here.


----------



## EagleEyes

Can anybody confirm that we have 38 A-5s instead of 40? I think x_man or MuradK should know. I do know that A-5s are already being retired however.


----------



## niaz

HAIDER said:


> PAF ever use JATO or ZEL takeoff ?



I remember a PAF pilot telling me that some of the Mirage-111 were equiped with Jet assisted take off. Hon Murad is this correct??


----------



## Muradk

niaz said:


> I remember a PAF pilot telling me that some of the Mirage-111 were equiped with Jet assisted take off. Hon Murad is this correct??



I commanded 9 SQD when they were equipped with Mirages In my days I never saw one do it , yes I saw one with F-6 but in China never with a mirage but there are air forces who do use them on mirage. photo attached . Our C-130 do them very often specially in gilgit when the load is to high. 
If they are doing it now in PAF I am not aware of it.










> sDuXTZioM0g[/media] - Blue Angels Fat Albert C-130 JATO






> u6cQKvEH6_0[/media] - C130 Test landing


----------



## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> Can anybody confirm that we have 38 A-5s instead of 40? I think x_man or MuradK should know. I do know that A-5s are already being retired however.



the original order was for 52 a/c. quite a few have perished due to accidents. so 38 seems right (2 squadron strength). i remember there was a time when the PAF wanted 150 of these babies. actually the PAF pilots are not too keen on this type.!


----------



## fatman17

MastanKhan said:


> Haider,
> 
> I believe tha PAF had an older version of C 130 that came with the jato kit on the sides. Other than that sample, I don't think any other plane had that option----I can be corrected here.



i think it was the L-100 civilian version of the C-130!


----------



## Myth_buster_1

i want to know if our K-8s are also used in light attacks for traning porpuse..


----------



## IceCold

23march said:


> i want to know if our K-8s are also used in light attacks for traning porpuse..



K-8 could be used as a light bomber not only for training purpose, but in actual conflict as well.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

IceCold said:


> K-8 could be used as a light bomber not only for training purpose, but in actual conflict as well.



i have seen K-8s over kabul River in Nowsharra.. i will post a 35 sec video when i was in PAF accadimy, got the T-37 K-8 mushsak and super sushak line up!.. 
my point is.. is PAF using K-8s for combat traning porpose?


----------



## fatman17

23march said:


> i have seen K-8s over kabul River in Nowsharra.. i will post a 35 sec video when i was in PAF accadimy, got the T-37 K-8 mushsak and super sushak line up!..
> my point is.. is PAF using K-8s for combat traning porpose?



I dont believe so as the PAF dosnt have enough K-8s in their inventory.


----------



## Muradk

fatman17 said:


> I dont believe so as the PAF dosnt have enough K-8s in their inventory.



They have 20 K8s.


----------



## Muradk

It takes our airmen appox 45 min to change its configuration from a trainer to a fighter.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muradk

23march said:


> i want to know if our K-8s are also used in light attacks for traning porpuse..



as you can see above they can some air forces are using them as fighters but we at PAF are using them for training.


----------



## fatman17

Muradk said:


> They have 20 K8s.



cant argue with that!


----------



## Blackpearl

Can somebody tell me about the engine of K-8
is it western or chineese?
Also i believe due to slow speed , this aircraft may be employed for counter insurgency ops....
Any comment?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Neo

Blackwater said:


> Can somebody tell me about the engine of K-8
> is it western or chineese?
> Also i believe due to slow speed , this aircraft may be employed for counter insurgency ops....
> Any comment?



Crew: 2 (trainer and trainee) 
Engine: Garrett TFE-731-2A-2A Turbo fan 
Wing Span: 9.36 m 
Length: 11.06 m 
Maximum Speed: 702 miles/hour


----------



## PakShaheen79

Why PAF have just 20? Wasn't it an ATJ joint venture?Why just 20?


----------



## IceCold

PakShaheen79 said:


> Why PAF have just 20? Wasn't it an ATJ joint venture?Why just 20?



We will get more of these birds.


----------



## Muradk

IceCold said:


> We will get more of these birds.



I dont think so they stopped the production on K-8 in Kamra. Engine problems.


----------



## Quwa

Muradk said:


> I dont think so they stopped the production on K-8 in Kamra. Engine problems.


PAF ordered 27 K-8s a couple years back, presently being delivered from China. The engine issue has been solved as it is now equipped with a Chinese system.


----------



## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> PAF ordered 27 K-8s a couple years back, presently being delivered from China. The engine issue has been solved as it is now equipped with a Chinese system.



in the 1st batch 8 were delivered. then the US imposed the embargo on the garrett/collins engine. production was stalled. remember the PAF wanted 80 of these birds (can someone answer why?)
then 911 came and the US and Pak were chums again. a further 28 K-8s were ordered which are being delivered but with the same garrett/collins engine and avionics. the chinese engine was rejected.(Mark Sien-u can correct me on that)
so now we will have 2 sqdns of K-8 for AJT. but i think the K-8 is not the right platform to train our future pilots on jet flying. we need something superior and there are a lot of options available. turkey has selected the S.Korean T-50 as the AJT. this could be a possibility for the PAF also considering the close military ties with the S.Koreans.


----------



## Imran Khan

after the JF17 induct fully in paf. what we have to next plane making?


----------



## EagleEyes

There is no plan so far. However, we hope that Pakistan collaborates in the Chinese 5th generation fighter programme.


----------



## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> in the 1st batch 8 were delivered. then the US imposed the embargo on the garrett/collins engine. production was stalled. remember the PAF wanted 80 of these birds (can someone answer why?)
> then 911 came and the US and Pak were chums again. a further 28 K-8s were ordered which are being delivered but with the same garrett/collins engine and avionics. the chinese engine was rejected.(Mark Sien-u can correct me on that)
> so now we will have 2 sqdns of K-8 for AJT. but i think the K-8 is not the right platform to train our future pilots on jet flying. we need something superior and there are a lot of options available. turkey has selected the S.Korean T-50 as the AJT. this could be a possibility for the PAF also considering the close military ties with the S.Koreans.


PAF stopped ordering K-8s in the 1990s because the T-37s got a Life Extension Program, and the PAF decided to fly them through completely. Overall 33 K-8s were ordered since 2001-2002 and I have not heard about anyone continuing the U.S. engine...the Chinese system is standard. PAF will probably continue procuring K-8s to replace the T-37s - overall looking at 75 aircraft. 

For AJT & LIFT the PAF will use twin-seat JF-17.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Mark Sien said:


> For AJT & LIFT the PAF will use twin-seat JF-17.



dont think JF-17 will sute for AJT.
i think the best choice for PAF will probibly be to have about 25 more K-8s to buring the fleet to 50 or so and buy two squadron of new Chinese advance jet tranier L-15.


----------



## Imran Khan

wich one have best radar anr range IAF falcon vs PAF SAAB2000 ?


----------



## EagleEyes

imran khan said:


> wich one have best radar anr range IAF falcon vs PAF SAAB2000 ?



Read this thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/4528-phalcon-awacs.html

Then read this:
Air Force Technology - EMB-145 Erieye - Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft


----------



## 0UTL4W

if pakistan purchases 5th generation fighters from china can anyone predict how many pakistan may acquire? and also by when?


----------



## HAIDER

Chinese industry is not mature enough for real time 5th generation fighter yet.

Is there any concept of "dissimilar training" in PAF.


----------



## fatman17

HAIDER said:


> Chinese industry is not mature enough for real time 5th generation fighter yet.
> 
> Is there any concept of "dissimilar training" in PAF.



DCAT is part and parcel of CSS - Sargodha.


----------



## Imran Khan

pakistan can enter in 5th genration in 2020.before that there is no chance.resorces of pakistan not allow for 5th genration planes enter in PAF


----------



## sohailbutt

Imran bhai i doubt that coz of 2 major reasons:

1. Lockheed is going to produce an estimated 3500 F-35's for the potential customers, which include Turkey, US, Britain and other countries as well, so once there orders r fulfilled then we may recieve our jets if US allows us to have them (If we order F-35's which I doubt due to the price tag)!!!

2. Till now the are only aircraft in the 5th generation category are, Raptor and F-35, one thing is for sure US will never sell us Raptor, the other thing even if it sells us F-35 it may be we have to wait 15 years to get our hands on the first one!!!

In my view, despite our purchase of F-16's (Block 52's and modifications to the older F-16's), J-10's, and JF-17's we should have fighters which can really be a force to reckon with, my point here is we have an option for 18 more F-16's it would be best for PAF to get 18 F-16 block 60's, I would love to see more of these block 60 aircraft with PAF.


----------



## Imran Khan

i thing they not sell pakistan F22 or F35 more then 25 years. whats new plane we get from USA after F16.nothing they scared to sell new waipens to pakistan .there is so many resans first of all if happen same like IRAN in pakistan extremists take power.pakistan is close friend and aly of chaina they scared to TOT of new waipens to chaina . and also our nekes .these F16 now we get when F16 not like 80s and 90s.persnaly i not trust on USA .better we go with chaina france or sweden for modren planes.what you think mr sahilbutt?


----------



## IceCold

imran khan said:


> better we go with chaina france or sweden for modren planes.what you think mr sahilbutt?



If US places sactions on pakistan, you can say goodbye to sweden. Why because many compotents in the Gripen are of US origin and hence too many strings attached to it. 

France, the option is there provided india does not go for the rafale, because if they do, french would never want to upset their costumer, besides the cost factor with the french equipment is also there. They are too high of a price for PAF to have in significant numbers.

China well we can always rely on to them interms of military hardware, but they are still lacking behing years as compared to the western tech and would require few more years and maybe a decade to reach the same level of success as that of the west.


----------



## sohailbutt

Imran Bhai thank you for asking me to give my views, here is what I think, after reading ur and IceCold's post:

I'm damn sure US will not place sanctions on Pakistan in the coming 10 years, because of the current situtation they are in, they r a lost cow at the moment, they r simply stuck in Afganistan and Iraq they would never sanction us especially now when they can start a war with Iran at any time, they need us more than ever, it can be justified by their increasing so called "MILITARY AND FINANCIAL AID", and one more thing PAF will not go for gripen fighters cause they have already selected F-16's over them, so eliminate gripen from the equation.

You mentioned rafale, if India selects it as the MRCA winner, I know one thing for sure that PAF will not be purchasing the same jet to counter the rafale threat, PAF will be looking for a real kick *** fighter which I think would be either Eurofighter or US F-18 SuperHornet (Eurofighter most likely to be the choice), I know that the price tag is above $100 million per piece for all three jets, but PAF does not need them in very high numbers 50 of either of these 2 jets eurofighter or f-18 can kick some serious rafale ***, cause we know one thing "if our brave pilots can kick *** in gulf war without any loss aginst Israeli pilots, then i think they can do anything, just think wut they can do with new block 52's or possibly in the future eurofighter or superhornet".

Regarding Chinese fighters,, I completely agree with u, we know Chinese avaiation industry lacks in technology when compared to Western Countries that's why I would suggest that we do buy Chinese jets like the J-10 and the co-produced JF-17's but we should keep some new Western tech with us as well, cause if in the future we buy either eurofighter or superhornet as a response to MRCA, we can use one of those jets, study it and then use it to improve J-10's or any fighters with us at that time, this will reduce the technology gap between the Chinese and Westerns Jets but again, I would recommend that PAF should not keep all of its eggs in one basket (NO offence here to anyone by this statement), they should have Western jets with Chinses jets at the same in PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Imran Khan

so we have to wait and see until india select any jet .then we show our cards. but i also say same like my last post pakistann can't trust USA .we trust them so many time but they always same use us and forget.and my brother if they sanctions us after 10 years then we buy speare parts from black market same like before ?  for jets also we have to see multy nation jets not from one country even chaina.but we must enter chaines new 5th genration jet program.


----------



## asifhabib7

Assalamualaikum to all of u

regarding airforce my question is that would jf17 with the help of awac be able to take on mki effectively?
2.what is the difference between the rc400, mica and chinese avionics in terms of performance.....and hv v signed the mica and rc400 deal with france for our jf17?
i would love to see some expert comments on the above questions particularly from fatman sir,icecold sir,blain sir.mastan sir and from webmaster sir... thx


----------



## MastanKhan

Asifhabib,

It is unfair to compete JF 17 w / awacs support to the SU 30. There is no comparison at this time. SU 30 is on a totally different pleateu----there has to be some fairness given in comparison of two machines. You are not talking about DACT are you instead of real combat

You cannot compare a Chevrolet Corvette to a Honda civic and specially a plane that has not even entered service yet---that is a big no no.

Now between the next 3 to 5 years from now, when all the euipment has matured and a much more powerful engine is available for the JF 17, we can say that we do have a platform that can compete with all the other planes in the IAF arsenal except for the SU 30.

Su 30 MKI is a monster of a plane---PAF will have the blk 52 with the amraams to match upto it. Remember in combat, a pilot makes the big difference, but if one pilot is not even within the firing range of his weapons and the opponent has a first and second shot at their discretion---how can you compete. 

You have to provide the pilots with a comparable equipment and then expect them to perform. Otherwise, you are sending them on suicide missions.

As for the equipment Mark will be able to answer that question better.


----------



## asifhabib7

thx mastan sir for making it clear


----------



## Imran Khan

when we get tanker of air refuleing wich plane refule by it ?
f-16
JF17
F7PG
A5
MIRAGE


----------



## blain2

fatman17 said:


> DCAT is part and parcel of CSS - Sargodha.



True, however in my humble opinion DACT is not the responsibility of the CCS alone. They do much more than training aircraft on DACT profiles.

The PAF sqns go through yearly training camps where aircraft of various types from different sqns are pitched against each other for DACT. CCS participation in many of these exercises is on the basis of organizers, umpires etc.

Speaking of CCS, the latest batch of the combat commanders from CCS just graduated.
http://www.app.com.pk/photo/photo_lib/19-04-2008/2b68f20401733353b9cd94d271dc9437.jpg

For those unaware, the CCS is Pakistan Air Force's Weapons School similar to USAF's Warfare Center (Nellis).


----------



## sohailbutt

salamualikum to all,

guys i was thinkin abut PAF F-16's, we will need to replace them after 2025 (well I'm not sure abut the date but it's just a guess), PAF has always kept a technological edge over it's adversorie's, by keeping modern aircraft like f-16's in it's inventory, we all know that f-16 is a multirole fighter, wut i would like to ask is that in the future when we need to replace these f-16's which western jet we will be goin for????

I read somewhere that f-35's (Multirole fighter) would replace US f-16's as f-35's would in the future take over the role of f-16's for US and many other countries which includes our friend n brother nation of Turkey.

Will PAF also be lookin for F-35's after 2025 as a replacement for its F-16's, or will it be another westernjet?????


----------



## Muradk

sohailbutt said:


> salamualikum to all,
> 
> guys i was thinkin abut PAF F-16's, we will need to replace them after 2025 (well I'm not sure abut the date but it's just a guess), PAF has always kept a technological edge over it's adversorie's, by keeping modern aircraft like f-16's in it's inventory, we all know that f-16 is a multirole fighter, wut i would like to ask is that in the future when we need to replace these f-16's which western jet we will be goin for????
> 
> I read somewhere that f-35's (Multirole fighter) would replace US f-16's as f-35's would in the future take over the role of f-16's for US and many other countries which includes our friend n brother nation of Turkey.
> 
> Will PAF also be lookin for F-35's after 2025 as a replacement for its F-16's, or will it be another westernjet?????



Hard to Answer by 2025 you might see planes more advanced than F-35, F-22. US has always kept its edge , when they gave you F-16s they had something to counter that so by the time comes and they start delivering the JSF and F-22s they might come up with something to counter that.


----------



## Imran Khan

past present and future we can't trust USA they wil give us f16 in 80 for there benifits and now also for there WAT aly . in future if they have some thing with pakistan they can sell us f25 if no then no chance.us not behave with us like costmer.we check this so many times.so forget us and we seen any other fighter for future


----------



## sohailbutt

Muradk sir thank u for anwering to my post


----------



## EagleEyes

blain2 said:


> True, however in my humble opinion DACT is not the responsibility of the CCS alone. They do much more than training aircraft on DACT profiles.
> 
> The PAF sqns go through yearly training camps where aircraft of various types from different sqns are pitched against each other for DACT. CCS participation in many of these exercises is on the basis of organizers, umpires etc.
> 
> Speaking of CCS, the latest batch of the combat commanders from CCS just graduated.
> http://www.app.com.pk/photo/photo_lib/19-04-2008/2b68f20401733353b9cd94d271dc9437.jpg
> 
> For those unaware, the CCS is Pakistan Air Force's Weapons School similar to USAF's Warfare Center (Nellis).



Here is the picture from the CCS.


----------



## Muradk

Looks like we should go back to the RPAF standards , no beards only mustache. Only ground officers can keep Breads. The guy has such a big beard that the oxy mask wount fit properly, gets into Hypoxia and its all over.

Hypoxia is a lack of sufficient oxygen in the body cells or tissues caused by an inadequate supply of oxygen, inadequate transportation of oxygen, or inability of the body tissues to use oxygen. A common misconception among many pilots who are inexperienced in high-altitude flight operations and who have not been exposed to physiological training is that it is possible to recognize the symptoms of hypoxia and to take corrective action before becoming seriously impaired. While this concept may be appealing in theory, it is both misleading and dangerous for an untrained crewmember. Symptoms of hypoxia vary from pilot to pilot, but one of the earliest effects of hypoxia is impairment of judgment. Other symptoms can include one or more of the following:
(1) Behavioral changes (e.g., a sense of euphoria).
(2) Poor coordination.
(3) Discoloration at the fingernail beds (cyanosis).
(4) Sweating.
(5) Increased breathing rate, headache, sleepiness, or fatigue.
(6) Loss or deterioration of vision.
(7) Light-headedness or dizzy sensations and listlessness.
(8) Tingling or warm sensations.
While other significant effects of hypoxia usually do not occur in a healthy pilot in an un-pressurized aircraft below 12,000 feet, there is no assurance that this will always be the case. The onset of hypoxic symptoms may seriously affect the safety of flight and may well occur even in short periods of exposure to altitudes from 12,000 to 15,000 feet. The ability to take corrective measures may be totally lost in 5 minutes at 22,000 feet. However, that time would be reduced to only 7 to 10 seconds at 40,000 feet and the crewmember may suffer total loss of consciousness soon thereafter and lose an Aircraft and then blame PAF for having bad planes or older planes.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MastanKhan

Murad,

You are correct. Hypoxia maybe compared to carbonmonoxide poisioning. When you go to sleep, there is no coming out of it.

I think PAF should be very clear on not growing facial hair---regardless air or ground crew---there is no place for a beard in the armed forces.


----------



## Energon

MastanKhan said:


> Murad,
> 
> You are correct. Hypoxia maybe compared to carbonmonoxide poisioning. When you go to sleep, there is no coming out of it.
> 
> I think PAF should be very clear on not growing facial hair---regardless air or ground crew---there is no place for a beard in the armed forces.



MK, mechanical hypoxia and carbon monoxide poisioning (which is also hypoxia) are two very different physiological phenomena with radically different mechanisms and reactions and are hence incomparable.


----------



## MastanKhan

Energon,

Agreed---one is like explosion the other is like implosion. I wasn't talking about the similiar chemical part of the reaction, but even in them not being similiar, they both reach a point of no return where a human being loses senses and goes past into the beyond.

So, other than that the person is dead, the rest is left to aesthetics.


----------



## fatman17

blain2 said:


> True, however in my humble opinion DACT is not the responsibility of the CCS alone. They do much more than training aircraft on DACT profiles.
> 
> The PAF sqns go through yearly training camps where aircraft of various types from different sqns are pitched against each other for DACT. CCS participation in many of these exercises is on the basis of organizers, umpires etc.
> 
> Speaking of CCS, the latest batch of the combat commanders from CCS just graduated.
> http://www.app.com.pk/photo/photo_lib/19-04-2008/2b68f20401733353b9cd94d271dc9437.jpg
> 
> For those unaware, the CCS is Pakistan Air Force's Weapons School similar to USAF's Warfare Center (Nellis).



true again - i was merely trying to answer the bloke's inquiry about DCAT.


----------



## sohailbutt

guys, i was readin abut the purchase by PAF of 500 AIM 120C-5 which have a range of 65mi/105Km, this is enough in the BVR, very happy that PAF will inshallah get them, but wut i would like to ask is, which missile is PAF goin to arm itself in the BVRAAM range, which can easily take out any fighter, will it be the MBDA Meteor, or the AIM-120D/205km (130 mi)????

anyway i got information about both these missiles, i would vote for Meteor, it's in the makin but if purchased, sale of the missile cannot be blocked as compared to American AIM-120D missiles (if purchased), by their congress!!!!!

MBDA Corporate Site

AIM-120 AMRAAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

just think, BVRAAM side by side with AMRAAM on our F-16's, J-10's, n our very impressive low cost fighter JF-17, it will be a force to rekon with

views welcome


----------



## khanz

it says on wiki in paf article that already they inducted 28 jf-17s into the airforce is this true ? it seems much faster than i imagined .


----------



## Imran Khan

wikipedia is not a good for info.i can make 128 now


----------



## Imran Khan

sir can some has info abut pakistan have MI 24 HIND i read that only one in service ?


----------



## Muradk

imran khan said:


> sir can some has info abut pakistan have MI 24 HIND i read that only one in service ?



2 of them and they were the ones PAF got them to surrender in Air. 
Have you seen Chalire wilsons war the figures of there fighters taken down by stingers are all wrong they are the figures PAF planes shot down not the stingers.


----------



## shehbazi2001

MastanKhan said:


> Murad,
> 
> You are correct. Hypoxia maybe compared to carbonmonoxide poisioning. When you go to sleep, there is no coming out of it.
> 
> I think PAF should be very clear on not growing facial hair---regardless air or ground crew---there is no place for a beard in the armed forces.




I completey disagree with this idea. This shall deeply hurt or even force the concerned personnel to quit PAF.

PAF should only concentrate on its professional matters of technical progress, flying skill and build-up. 

Stalin had to face immense destruction and defeat in the start of Operation Barbarossa due to purges he had done on personal like and dislike basis.

If we are muslims, we should never pass an order which contradicts Allah and his prophet's teachings. I personally know very talented and precious men who quit PAF academy due to beard issues even in aeronautical engineering.

PAF may get punished by God for this.....and this is not a joke......The No.14 squadron pilots who fired at bangalis faced an ultimate insult a human being can possibly suffer......leave alone a pilot.....surrender and at the top of this, the Sabres were taken in flying form by Indians......only some sabres were fired at by machine guns by our crew. 

PAF should concentrate on learning about Electronic warfare. No expert has answered till now on my post of jammer pods. What is this level?

It is a pilot's headache to choose a correct helmet for himself. He shall surely trim his beard if he faces difficulty in wearing it or with oxygen mask.

what punishment we may get for actions like mentioned above ....and what the world powers are thinking about Pakistan.....what planning has already being done........shall tell u somewhat in my next posts.


----------



## blain2

shehbazi2001 said:


> PAF should concentrate on learning about Electronic warfare. No expert has answered till now on my post of jammer pods. What is this level?



What jamming pods are you referring to? The ones in use by the PAF are ALQ-131s (the same stuff as in use by the NATO air forces flying F-16s). PAF has ordered additional ALQ-131/ALQ-184 pods for existing F-16s (blk 15s) as well as 18 ALQ-178s for the blk 52s.

The Mirages and F-7s are equipped with Self Protection capability with RWR/Chaff/Flares. Fairly rudimentary but effective for self-protection.

For actual electronic warfare and jamming, I believe F-16s currently are the only ones with this capability with the above mentioned ALQ-131 pods.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Blain, I referred to my thread in Militray Aviation head with title "Main Funtions of a Jammer Pod".

I dont want the equipment details of PAF. Its a knowledge related question, on the use of a jammer pod. 

I may also send a post on the wrong decisions made by PAF for its selection of high-altitude HQ-2B SAMs in the past.

I did not want to post it, but that beard issue is forcing me to fully show the importance of concentrating on professional matters and not on the enmity with islam.


----------



## x_man

shehbazi2001 said:


> I completey disagree with this idea. This shall deeply hurt or even force the concerned personnel to quit PAF.
> 
> PAF should only concentrate on its professional matters of technical progress, flying skill and build-up.
> 
> Stalin had to face immense destruction and defeat in the start of Operation Barbarossa due to purges he had done on personal like and dislike basis.
> 
> If we are muslims, we should never pass an order which contradicts Allah and his prophet's teachings. I personally know very talented and precious men who quit PAF academy due to beard issues even in aeronautical engineering.
> 
> *PAF may get punished by God for this*........




Punishment for What ? For telling people to follow rules .....??

I think you are unnecessarily boiling your blood over an issue which is not even an issuePAF personal had been keeping beards and will continue to do so.No one is stopping anyone from beard, the only thing that Airforce is asking them, is to keep the beard according to the existing rules...

Airforce has rules/regulations for everything and has a complete set of instructions on the DRESS CODE .This manual also contains instructions about the length / dimensions of beard , shape/ size of moustaches , haircut, sideburns etc etcall serving members have to abide by the dress code prescribed in the Manual

If I want to grow beard today, I will have to take permission from AHQ and in my application, I will confirm that my beard will be according to the Dress code Manual. I havent come across a single soul, who applied for keeping the beard and his application was turned down.so if anyone is telling you that he wasnt given permission or dispelled from Airforce because of beard, he is just bluffing.

What was happening over the years that people started to have longer beards than they were allowed.and when finally Airforce asked them to shorten their beards according to dress regulations, many people back lashed. They assumed that they are being asked something which is contrary to Islam and plainly refused to shorten their beards.Now the problem starts herethings came in mediapeople started to assume that PAF has become some evil anti-beard cult.or its asking people to completely shave off the beardsto gain the sympathies of masses, the defaulters portray a total wrong picture to the outside world and the things became a big mess.. everyone started to blame the force and finally the Airforce had to come back tough on the defaulters..

Meray bhai, the only thing PAF asked them was to keep the beard according to rules.no one was asked to shave it off completely...I hope I am able to remove some of your doubts about the issue...


----------



## Keysersoze

shehbazi2001 said:


> I completey disagree with this idea. This shall deeply hurt or even force the concerned personnel to quit PAF.
> 
> PAF should only concentrate on its professional matters of technical progress, flying skill and build-up.
> 
> Stalin had to face immense destruction and defeat in the start of Operation Barbarossa due to purges he had done on personal like and dislike basis.
> 
> If we are muslims, we should never pass an order which contradicts Allah and his prophet's teachings. I personally know very talented and precious men who quit PAF academy due to beard issues even in aeronautical engineering.
> 
> PAF may get punished by God for this.....and this is not a joke......The No.14 squadron pilots who fired at bangalis faced an ultimate insult a human being can possibly suffer......leave alone a pilot.....surrender and at the top of this, the Sabres were taken in flying form by Indians......only some sabres were fired at by machine guns by our crew.
> 
> PAF should concentrate on learning about Electronic warfare. No expert has answered till now on my post of jammer pods. What is this level?
> 
> It is a pilot's headache to choose a correct helmet for himself. He shall surely trim his beard if he faces difficulty in wearing it or with oxygen mask.
> 
> what punishment we may get for actions like mentioned above ....and what the world powers are thinking about Pakistan.....what planning has already being done........shall tell u somewhat in my next posts.



X-man has been polite about this....I am going to be a bit more rude. If you are seriously saying that GOD makes people lose wars because of their lack of beards then I would say that you need serious psychiatric help.

The simple fact as I have stated is that if God punishes people without beards, I would love to know why he has not punished the British army which has not allowed beards for hundreds of years (for the sake of field hygiene) and has not lost a war in that time. 

If a pilot chooses to grow a long beard that causes him to crash a plane then he is committing suicide. Is that allowed? Maybe then people with beards should show God loves them by not using oxygen at all?

Why use Jammer pods? why not use their beards to stop incoming missiles?

It makes my blood boil hearing people spout such rubbish! 
GOD HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES.


----------



## fatman17

blain2 said:


> What jamming pods are you referring to? The ones in use by the PAF are ALQ-131s (the same stuff as in use by the NATO air forces flying F-16s). PAF has ordered additional ALQ-131/ALQ-184 pods for existing F-16s (blk 15s) as well as 18 ALQ-178s for the blk 52s.
> 
> The Mirages and F-7s are equipped with Self Protection capability with RWR/Chaff/Flares. Fairly rudimentary but effective for self-protection.
> 
> For actual electronic warfare and jamming, I believe F-16s currently are the only ones with this capability with the above mentioned ALQ-131 pods.



Blain2-what about the Falcon-20s with the PAF.arn't they also used for ECM and jamming.?


----------



## niaz

shehbazi2001 said:


> I completey disagree with this idea. This shall deeply hurt or even force the concerned personnel to quit PAF.
> 
> PAF should only concentrate on its professional matters of technical progress, flying skill and build-up.
> 
> Stalin had to face immense destruction and defeat in the start of Operation Barbarossa due to purges he had done on personal like and dislike basis.
> 
> If we are muslims, we should never pass an order which contradicts Allah and his prophet's teachings. I personally know very talented and precious men who quit PAF academy due to beard issues even in aeronautical engineering.
> 
> PAF may get punished by God for this.....and this is not a joke......The No.14 squadron pilots who fired at bangalis faced an ultimate insult a human being can possibly suffer......leave alone a pilot.....surrender and at the top of this, the Sabres were taken in flying form by Indians......only some sabres were fired at by machine guns by our crew.
> 
> PAF should concentrate on learning about Electronic warfare. No expert has answered till now on my post of jammer pods. What is this level?
> 
> It is a pilot's headache to choose a correct helmet for himself. He shall surely trim his beard if he faces difficulty in wearing it or with oxygen mask.
> 
> what punishment we may get for actions like mentioned above ....and what the world powers are thinking about Pakistan.....what planning has already being done........shall tell u somewhat in my next posts.



Unlike in Sikhism, where there is a clear order to keep long hair, there is no mention in the holy Quran that keeping a beard is a must. No country is more orthodox than Saudi Arabia. Just go there and see how many people are clean shaven. In Kuwait I have even offered prayers behind an Imam who had very slight beard. Keeping the fist size beard is a "SUNNAT" not a "FARZ". If you can follow the sunnat it is indeed very good and
commendable. But not a must. 

Even in the time of the holy Prophet ( PBUH); sehabas had different lenght beards. For example it is a fact that Hazrat Ali ( RA) had very slight beard, very common in the Arabs these days. On the other hand Hazrat Osman( RA) had a long beard. How can you than say that it is the order of Allah and PAF will be punished??? It is the misinterpretation of the religion in the extreme. 

Besides, if life is at the stake, even "Haram" food is allowed. If you care to read Islamic history closely, once during the time of a famine in Medina, Hazrat Omer ( RA) repealed the ban on many haram things so that people dont die of hunger.

It is this idiotic interpretation of a ISLAM by semi literate mullah's that Islam gets a bad name. Life is the most precious gift of Allah and one must do all one can to safeguard it.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Mr Keyser...the promise of reward and warning of punishment is only for muslims........dont drag british in this issue.....u were right in saying that ur post is going to be rude, yes it was really rude. 

Even with that situation, the BRITISH had an insulting and memorable defeat at the hands of TRIBAL PATHANS. The GREAT BRITISH EMPIRE failed to get their hands on the dead body of a SINGLE pathan. They saw the blood track going into mountians, but a british mother had not given birth to a son who could follow those blood tracks....

People like you cant even understand it. Once an afghan child was drinking the dirty water of a pond, and a british saw him...he started count down that child would be dead within minutes.....that child would become a warrior with a superior immunity system to the normal human beings..... 

in this regard,you should watch the "The light Horsemen". This film is set in the First World War theatre of Palestin and is about the role of an Australlian cavalry unit that participated in war against Turks alongwith Allies.

u shall find Australlian army men enjoying the off-duty time in NUDE at the seaside of Gaza Strip. That unit then defeated the turkish positions. Now should we do the same thing for being victorious? 

The reason of defeat was the lack of reinforcements because Anwar Pasha had opened yet another front on the Russian side. Logic must never be forgotten but dont enforce something which may be sacred for someone. 

Now the islamic details of whether sunnah is must or not and Hazrat Ali had a short beard.....my dear many arabs naturally dont have dense hair....it is not that they trimmed it.....its not only sunnah of our Prophet (PBUH), every prophet did it......

however presenting these details does not seem a good idea because there exist difference of opinion and yet another thing is the THRESH HOLD level of every person. Everyone has set separate limits for himself as acceptable and not acceptable. 

Therefore its better not to touch these issues and not to pass orders in these issues.We can be muslims but we are not momins. Untill u follow islam 100%, u cant be a complete muslim or momin and promises of heavenly support are with momins.

As for the armed forces, they should focus on their professional excellence, especially the technical progress.


----------



## blain2

fatman17 said:


> Blain2-what about the Falcon-20s with the PAF.arn't they also used for ECM and jamming.?



Yes you are right DA-20 as well. I was specifically referring to combat aircraft.
However I believe the DA-20 has additional ELINT capabilities as well where it can actually detect and gather various threat signatures (builds out the signature library from the detected radar frequencies). F-16s would require DRFM to do the same. In the absence of DRFM, the F-16 would use threat libraries from other platforms such as the DA-20 and inshallah Erieye in the future.


----------



## x_man

blain2 said:


> Yes you are right DA-20 as well. I was specifically referring to combat aircraft.
> However I believe the DA-20 has additional ELINT capabilities as well where it can actually detect and gather various threat signatures (builds out the signature library from the detected radar frequencies). F-16s would require DRFM to do the same. In the absence of DRFM, the F-16 would use threat libraries from other platforms such as the DA-20 and inshallah Erieye in the future.



Very Well said...

DA-20 has both capabilities, i.e. COMINT and ELINT....It can also carry out effective ECM .

It provides an excellent value for the money as far as the training of pilots/controllers in ECM environments is concerned. 

PAF is working and there is lot of awareness towards the field of Electronic warfare....I hope Erieye will prove its worth and will take care of many shortcoming that DA-20 had and will prove a very effective force multiplier.


----------



## shehbazi2001

what about the establishement of an Electronic Warfare Range like POLYGON in Europe on the border of France and Germany I think.

There they do all the experiments related to EW.


----------



## x_man

Electronic Warfare Test and Training Range (EWTTR) has been procured from Turkey...A lot needs to be done in terms of establishing data links especially and integration of various components of range with each other, its full potential is yet to be explored in many ways...PAF has also tailored made it according to her own requirements/needs and its great to have it......


----------



## shehbazi2001

I had said in one of my previous mails to mention some of the planning that the world powers seem to have done 

against Pakistan. Unfortunately, we have access only to media and bringing the real inside-stories is the jobs of 

professionals of the agencies, who are busy in politics.....

Journal Name : Science et Vie, Special Issue, Aviation 2007
Title of article : "Rafale at the heart of Inter-force manouvers"
Author: Jean-Patrick Gaviard, Consultant at Centre for Strategic Intelligence Studies

Page-67,

"An external operation in 2025. The french army is engaged in Balochistan for bringing peace to the very troubled region. Army finds itself confronted with the (problem) of separation of a major city of the country (Pakistan), that has fallen into the hands of terrorists. The reconquest into federation is decided. The air superiority task is given to French Air Force....."

That gives a glimpse of the planning and in this context, we can understand the situation in Pakistan. Govt of Pakistan should stop all its military operation in NWFP and Balochistan, so that no one can enter Pakistan on the pretext of bringing peace to the region.

To deprive Pakistan of its nuclear arsenal, very strange schemes may be in preparation and we need to be careful.


----------



## blain2

x_man said:


> Electronic Warfare Test and Training Range (EWTTR) has been procured from Turkey...A lot needs to be done in terms of establishing data links especially and integration of various components of range with each other, its full potential is yet to be explored in many ways...PAF has also tailored made it according to her own requirements/needs and its great to have it......



I was just looking at this yesterday.  Have had it bookmarked for quite a while. I think PAF purchased this system a year or two ago.
Electronic Warfare Test and Training Range (EWTTR)


----------



## shehbazi2001

When I read in PAF histroy book about 1962 grand firing demonstration at Jamrud during my college time, I decided to visit the range with two of my friends. 

As we reached there, we introduced ourselves as students of Islmia College Peshawar and told that we want to see the live firing. The airmen informed us that a formation of F-7s is coming within minutes for practice strafing on ground targets. The targets were in front of us.

The airmen gave each of us a cup of tea. We started taking sips of tea and in the meanwhile the F-7s started to roar in the skies above. Before this we had never seen or heard live firing of fighters. An F-7 came in a dive and fired its guns. We were standing close and the sounds were like little thunders, we could hardly hold our cups of tea.

Then I had a chat with the range officer, perhaps a Fl Lt and after some time when I saw that officer in PTV drama "Shahpar", the memories came to my mind again. 

However then I heard that Jamrud range has been put out of use. I dont know that the squadrons of peshawar and kamra use which range for practice now.


----------



## sohailbutt

Can somebody please answer my following questions:

1. Will JF-17 have thrust vector control on future blocks of JF-17 like block 4 or 5? (which can give MKI a serious bang for a buck!!!)

2. Will JF-17 also in its future versions would have an engine which does not give out a blue flare out at its back which could be easily seen by the naked eye at night time? (this is very important when low level flights r carried out at night durin wartime, i suppose!!!)

Thank u in advance to anyone who answers my question


----------



## x_man

shehbazi2001 said:


> When I read in PAF histroy book about 1962 grand firing demonstration at Jamrud during my college time, I decided to visit the range with two of my friends.
> 
> As we reached there, we introduced ourselves as students of Islmia College Peshawar and told that we want to see the live firing. The airmen informed us that a formation of F-7s is coming within minutes for practice strafing on ground targets. The targets were in front of us.
> 
> The airmen gave each of us a cup of tea. We started taking sips of tea and in the meanwhile the F-7s started to roar in the skies above. Before this we had never seen or heard live firing of fighters. An F-7 came in a dive and fired its guns. We were standing close and the sounds were like little thunders, we could hardly hold our cups of tea.
> 
> Then I had a chat with the range officer, perhaps a Fl Lt and after some time when I saw that officer in PTV drama "Shahpar", the memories came to my mind again.
> 
> However then I heard that Jamrud range has been put out of use. I dont know that the squadrons of peshawar and kamra use which range for practice now.




While at Mianwali and Peshawar in early/mid 90s, I had plenty of chances not only to use the Jamrud Range for firing/bombing but also performed unlimited duties as Range Safety Officer (RSO). Jamrud range was decommissioned because of various domestic and technical reasonsFor example it was surrounded by local hutments that were dangerously close and range also became the victim of encroachment all around. There were many instances, where aircrafts missed the local kids by few feet especially in the strafing pattern. I happened many times where we had to call off the live attack because there were kids around the target areas

Although Airforce tried its best to move them away but they were toooo manyand their fav hobby was to collect the empty 30 m.m / 23 m.m / shells or get hold of as many shells of 25 Ib/6kg bombs..The empty shells would fetch some good bucks from the local marketsI must say that those kids had some balls of steel.and their timings were very perfect, they knew that how long the next aircraft takes to align itself with the target.and as soon as the first aircraft peeled of after firing, kids would emerge from behind the targets, collect the shells and would disappear before the next fighter is lined up for firing.amazing timings.

Along with these snags, there were few technical reasons too , so after few near misses, finally Airforce decided to abandon this range.A new range was built around Kamra and now its been used by northern bases and sometimes they also use the famous Thal Range near Athara Hazri.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Thank you, X-man, that was a nice reply.


----------



## Muradk

sohailbutt said:


> Can somebody please answer my following questions:
> 
> 1. Will JF-17 have thrust vector control on future blocks of JF-17 like block 4 or 5? (which can give MKI a serious bang for a buck!!!)
> 
> 2. Will JF-17 also in its future versions would have an engine which does not give out a blue flare out at its back which could be easily seen by the naked eye at night time? (this is very important when low level flights r carried out at night durin wartime, i suppose!!!)
> 
> Thank u in advance to anyone who answers my question
> 
> Sohail: The engine used for the JF-17 regardless the block the Thrust to power ratio will not be enough for thrust vectoring. It is still not on papers what will happen in the future is totally unpredictable because JF-17 is like a baby its growing and will have potential to grow, But now at this time it will be hard to say.
> The blue flare is the after burner , if you are talking about the vapour trail which most people say smoke, That will be fixed in future.


----------



## sohailbutt

Muradk said:


> sohailbutt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can somebody please answer my following questions:
> 
> 1. Will JF-17 have thrust vector control on future blocks of JF-17 like block 4 or 5? (which can give MKI a serious bang for a buck!!!)
> 
> 2. Will JF-17 also in its future versions would have an engine which does not give out a blue flare out at its back which could be easily seen by the naked eye at night time? (this is very important when low level flights r carried out at night durin wartime, i suppose!!!)
> 
> Thank u in advance to anyone who answers my question
> 
> Sohail: The engine used for the JF-17 regardless the block the Thrust to power ratio will not be enough for thrust vectoring. It is still not on papers what will happen in the future is totally unpredictable because JF-17 is like a baby its growing and will have potential to grow, But now at this time it will be hard to say.
> The blue flare is the after burner , if you are talking about the vapour trail which most people say smoke, That will be fixed in future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank u sir, i did not know wut that blue flare was but now i know, actually that question poped up in my mind when i saw Raptor, F-35, Eurofighter, in flight but even those fighters give out flares when they use there afterburners
Click to expand...


----------



## shehbazi2001

Here I would like to clarify the THRUST VECTORING.

Everyone thinks that Thrust Vectoring means moving the nozzle or installing special diverters outside nozzle that deflect the exhaust.

A new thrust vectoring Mechanism, which it is believed to be used on EUROFIGHTER is no moving parts at all for the THRUST VECTORING.

It would certainly be better to upload a picture of it. But I shall tell u in easy words. TV is achieved also by extra fluid injection in the nozzle, this way an non symmetric flow field results.

In a normal nozzle, the air flow is symmetric in all directions, but with fluid injection, the air mass flow rate may be different in upper half nozzle than lower half and this way thrust vector is changed upwards or downwards.


----------



## shehbazi2001

The black smoke of the JF-17 Thunder means that the combustion of fuel in the combustion chamber of the jet engine is incomplete. 

If u look at the pictures of Mig_29, it also leaves a smoke trail. The same was the case with F-4 Phantoms. Then the engine technology improved and the combustion of fuel was COMPLETE and we saw no smoke in the exhaust. 

This smoke is unburnt carbon in the exhaust. The fuel is not fully burnt.

The smoke trail was also the problem with SIDEWINDER untill its AIM-9M version, which has smokeless rocket motor, and this makes it harder to detect.

I would like if all the AIM-9Ls are upgraded to M version too.


----------



## x_man

*@ Sohailbutt*

If you are referring to the afterburner, the appropriate word for the blue exhaust will either be the Afterburner *PLUME *or may be Afterburner *FLAME*....

Flare is something else and are ejected from the aircraft when its been fired upon or is threatened by a heat seeking missile...

As far as your query regarding thrust vectoring, as Sir Murad K mentioned in his post, nothing is in black and white for JF-17.

Remember that one cannot just put any variable nozzle engine in any aircraft and make it a thrust vectoring..there are millions of other design considerations that need to be taken care of. Many USAF/ USN fighters ( F-16 , F-18 , F-15 etc ) did try thrust vectoring in past but after many trials and test , decision was in favour of conventional fix jet nozzles.Because thrust vectoring is expensive, complex in design and heavy on maintenance..

JF-17 is still evolving and continue to do so for many years.Chinese might try thrust vectoring on it but will it be a permanent design feature in future models , is anybodys guess


----------



## x_man

Check this out.....

Photos: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29A (9-12A) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net


----------



## shehbazi2001

In the famous History Channel program of DOGFIGHTS......I saw an episode "MIG KILLERS OF THE MIDWAY"........in that program they showed a dogfight between Phantom and Migs........and when the Mig was on the six of the Phantom, the Phantom Pilot did a last ditch "back-flip" manouver.........from level flight, he did a sort of sommersault..........first full forward stick+bottom rudder...then pull hard back+top rudder.....

Top and bottom rudder mean left and right rudders or thats different? 

and if F-4 Phantom can do this, I want to know if just any fighter can do it?

and how a pilot senses that the bogey is about to fire, when that bogey is on his six? because I heard it a lot during DOGFIGHT shows.....on the occasions when the defending pilot wanted to do evasive maneuver but waited for the moment when bogey is about to fire........


----------



## Myth_buster_1

in one occasion coming from nowshara cantt on the way to Islamabad.. just by kamra air base "which i have to tell its very busy" i saw a jf-17 configured with 3 fuel tanks and two sidewinders fallowed by 2 f-7s circling right above the highway and got to see this bird for the first time! the point is... it did leave a small thin trail of smoke but lol not as much as the one in the mig-29 picture provided by x_man.. but I wonder was it Rd-93 or a Chinese one??


----------



## shehbazi2001

I was looking at the pictures of F-7PG and found that its windshield is single piece as compared to the 3-piece windshield of the F-7P.

We see that 3-piece windshield in the A-5, F-6, F-86, F-4 Phantom, F-14 Tomcat, Jaguar, Tornado, Mirage F-1 etc but that disappeared in all new fighters like F/A-18, F-15, F-16 etc.........

In Mirage-3 and Mirage-5, the forward canopy windshield was too 3-piece but later the Mirage-2000 changed to single piece windshield.....

so why was it necessary before to have a 3-piece windshield?


what was exactly the purpose of this structure of the windshield (the forward canopy)....perhaps for housing the gunsights etc


----------



## blain2

shehbazi2001 said:


> I was looking at the pictures of F-7PG and found that its windshield is single piece as compared to the 3-piece windshield of the F-7P.
> 
> We see that 3-piece windshield in the A-5, F-6, F-86, F-4 Phantom, F-14 Tomcat, Jaguar, Tornado, Mirage F-1 etc but that disappeared in all new fighters like F/A-18, F-15, F-16 etc.........
> 
> In Mirage-3 and Mirage-5, the forward canopy windshield was too 3-piece but later the Mirage-2000 changed to single piece windshield.....
> 
> so why was it necessary before to have a 3-piece windshield?
> 
> 
> what was exactly the purpose of this structure of the windshield (the forward canopy)....perhaps for housing the gunsights etc



One piece windshields afford better visibility for close-in combat. The 3 piece windshield is a thing of the past when the technology to make single piece windshield was too expensive or not available to many countries producing fighter aircraft.


----------



## Muradk

shehbazi2001 said:


> The black smoke of the JF-17 Thunder means that the combustion of fuel in the combustion chamber of the jet engine is incomplete.
> 
> If u look at the pictures of Mig_29, it also leaves a smoke trail. The same was the case with F-4 Phantoms. Then the engine technology improved and the combustion of fuel was COMPLETE and we saw no smoke in the exhaust.
> 
> This smoke is unburnt carbon in the exhaust. The fuel is not fully burnt.
> 
> The smoke trail was also the problem with SIDEWINDER untill its AIM-9M version, which has smokeless rocket motor, and this makes it harder to detect.
> 
> I would like if all the AIM-9Ls are upgraded to M version too.





YES SIR, Department of Defense has approved your request and are working on it.


----------



## Muradk

23march said:


> in one occasion coming from nowshara cantt on the way to Islamabad.. just by kamra air base "which i have to tell its very busy" i saw a jf-17 configured with 3 fuel tanks and two sidewinders fallowed by 2 f-7s circling right above the highway and got to see this bird for the first time! the point is... it did leave a small thin trail of smoke but lol not as much as the one in the mig-29 picture provided by x_man.. but I wonder was it Rd-93 or a Chinese one??



The 3 fuel tanks and 2 sidewinders are a standard configuration, The smoke trail to civilians it looks like the plane has some big time fault but no. When the Actual fight starts trust me the last things is looking for a smoke trail. The smoke trail is useless for the enemy planes who have the capabilities of BVR. Now if the same plane enters a dog fight which is a 90% chance that he will the smoke trail would be the last thing on both the pilots Friend or Foe.
Plus the smoke trail vanishes after a certain hight.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shehbazi2001

Murad sahib...please dont call me as SIR.....I am too young for you........plus u r our senior on this forum......


----------



## shehbazi2001

For the information of forum members I want to clarify that F-16C is less maneuverable than F-16A, as the thrust-weight ratio of the former is less than the latter........wing loading may have also increased.......and thats what I saw in a text book of aeronautical engineering......

and thats why A model was used by US Aggressor squadrons... 

I mentioned it because somewhere on the forum I saw a post saying that F-16C would be more agile than its A model.

Hereby I don't mean that A is better than C. We definitely need C now.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Muradk said:


> The 3 fuel tanks and 2 sidewinders are a standard configuration, The smoke trail to civilians it looks like the plane has some big time fault but no. When the Actual fight starts trust me the last things is looking for a smoke trail. The smoke trail is useless for the enemy planes who have the capabilities of BVR. Now if the same plane enters a dog fight which is a 90% chance that he will the smoke trail would be the last thing on both the pilots Friend or Foe.
> Plus the smoke trail vanishes after a certain hight.



Sir.. at that time when i saw these planes.. i was pretty much close to the air base i could get from the highway.. wright after it took off, some thin trail of smoke was visibel...


----------



## shehbazi2001

I just had a query about functioning of radar altimeter.........we know that radar altimeter measures height from ground by sending waves downward and noting the time of return of waves.

and I read somewhere that after a certain height perhaps, the barometric altimeter is not used.

The question is that if the aircraft gets inverted in level flight or when its diving, or climbing, would the radar altimeter give correct reading? and if it gives correct reading, then how it is possible?.....


----------



## x_man

Radar altimeter or radio altimeters are generally effective till 2500 feet onlyabove this height RA are not useful and pilot solely relies on his baro altimeter (BA)..Whenever a pilot needs very accurate height information above the ground level (remember that BA is generally set to read altitude from the sea level) .. He will use RA instead of BA..

For example, you want to fly a Hi- Lo-Hi profile to carry out a Lo level bombing attack at an airfield.......So you will take off , climb to initial hi altitude and proceed to waypoint, all the way maintaining height on your BA.once you descend to lo level , now you will switch on your RA and rely on it , you will need to set the height on it that you want to maintain ( lets say 230 feet)if you go below 230 feet, it will alert you with a beepso all the way you maintain your height now on RAcarry out the attack.head back home..and as you start to climb , you will once again start to refer to your Barometric altimeter.

The commercial aircrafts once carrying out Instrument landing or ILS approach with autopilot engaged also use Radio Alt heights..they are not allowed to carry auto landing, if their RA is unserviceable.

Remember that whenever you are referring to your RA, the BA doesnt go off ..It will continue to give height info.

As far as your query regarding getting inverted etc, so you are right.RA will give erroneous readings and one will need to rely on BA only in such situations...


----------



## shehbazi2001

Thanks x for the detailed reply. 

I had made a mistake that after a certain height BA is not used.....in fact it is RA that is not used after certain height.ok.


----------



## niaz

shehbazi2001 said:


> The black smoke of the JF-17 Thunder means that the combustion of fuel in the combustion chamber of the jet engine is incomplete.
> 
> If u look at the pictures of Mig_29, it also leaves a smoke trail. The same was the case with F-4 Phantoms. Then the engine technology improved and the combustion of fuel was COMPLETE and we saw no smoke in the exhaust.
> 
> This smoke is unburnt carbon in the exhaust. The fuel is not fully burnt.
> 
> The smoke trail was also the problem with SIDEWINDER untill its AIM-9M version, which has smokeless rocket motor, and this makes it harder to detect.
> 
> I would like if all the AIM-9Ls are upgraded to M version too.



A long time ago I was working for the National Engineering Laboratories at East Kilbride near Glasgow. I am also an avid bridge player. My bridge partner happened to be an aeronautics engineer working at the Rolls Royce Engine Repair and Overhaul factory located practically next door. I therefore had the occasion to visit it a few times and had the chance to look at the Spey Engine (a low by pass turbofan) at various stages of assembly and testing.

You are correct the about smoke being indicative of part of the fuel not completely burnt. It depends a lot on the air intake and the air compressor of the engine. In order to get maximum thrust, a lot of fuel is injected in the combustion chamber and if there is not enough oxygen available from the air, some of the fuel will not burn and instead exit in the form of atomised carbon which is smoke.

The problem is easier to resolve in larger turbines but in a minitiarised form as in the aircraft engine, it is extremely difficult, the size of air intake in the engine is a design compromise and cannot always be corrected.

IMO manufacture and design of aircraft's power plant is far more complex than the fuselage and wings.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Many of the aviation-historians are still angry with UK that why UK gave jet-engine samples to Russia (immediately after WW2 I thihk). Russia developed it further and used it in Korean War with Mig-15s.

The jet engine technology is limited to just a few companies in the world. Alongwith aerodynamics, I also chased the mirage of jet-engine right from my first year of engineering but the result is that there are many things that we dont find in the books.......

Someone interested in understanding jet-engines should read the books written in 1950s, as they are almost pure. After that?????????

key design tricks are restricted to those companies that design and manufacture jet engines.

In many of the colorful "cut-away" drawings of jet engines....there are errors......and the publishers were told to publish the wrong engine drawings in the books.

One of the publishers then revealed it. I read it myself. I am editing this post to include the details of that publisher, otherwise I may appear as conspiracy theorist. You should study the volume 10 of the series "Modern Fighting Aircraft" published by Acro Publishing. Volume 10 is about Panavia Tornado.

India has established since 1950s, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) and they are working on "Kaveri" jet engine for LCA since 1986 and have apparently fixed 2009 for starting production. 

Niaz, the miniaturized word should only be used for the jet engines of the cruise missiles and jet drones.....the aircraft jet engines are big.......some like GE90 of the commercial aircrafts are too much big.......

Research on jet engines is going at very fast pace now, first to reduce its noise, second to reduce fuel consumption and third to reduce its weight.

A jet-engine with a high thrust-to-weight ratio will in turn give high thrust-to-weight ratio to aircraft.

By 2020, the acceptable noise levels are going to be halved.....now the noise is not only generated by jet engine, its also generated by wings and fuselage, especially any holes, keys, slots etc on them.

So it is expected that in 2020, PIA may again be banned over Europe and america and be forced to change its aircraft or at least engines for complying with reduced noise regulations. So PIA should keep in mind this 2020 deadline while making purchases now.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Alignement of Guns

Like we know about WW-2 fighter that their guns on both wings had a focus point ahead of the aircraft. The focus length was left to pilots. Some pilots preferred that all guns should aim at a point at close range and other wanted a more distant focus point. For close focus points, the bullets from all 4 or 6 guns would target the same area/point in space at say 500 feet ahead from own fighter, which had a devastating effect.

I want to know that is it the same practice with jets like F-7s,Mirages and A-5s? and is it still left to the choice of pilots? ..........of course the fighters with a single gun are out of this discussion.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Air-to-Air Gunnery at different Aspect Angles 

In an episode of Dogfights called "Desert Aces", the leading jet ace Giora Epstein says that no matter how many fighters are up in the air against you, only one can be at your tail. And only that one can kill you. 
While that may be true in 1967 and 1973, now I think these things have changed. 

I know that with AIM-9L and all modern heat-seekers can take shot even from front or from High Off-Boresight Angles (HOBA).But what remains is the gunnery. Can gun be used at aspect angles other than tail-chase? and more importantly does the PAF train for other than tail-aspect gun shooting?


----------



## shehbazi2001

Air War at Night

1) Night Interceptions
2) Night air combats
3) Night dogfights

In 1965 and 1971, we heard of night interceptions only. These interceptions were related to Canberras. It follows that INTERCEPTION means when u engage a BOMBER (I want to understand it) and not a fighter. Also "interception" is used for Martime Patrol Aircraft/Surveillance/ECM aircrafts. Is it correct? 

While night air combat is a possibility with BVRs (took place in Balkans), logically it seems that night dogfight is rare because dogfight is mostly after visual contact. Some night dogfights took place during Korean war but still I dont know of a night dogfight of PAF?...........Does PAF train for dogfight at night with and without GCI / AWACS.....?


----------



## shehbazi2001

Strategic and Tactical

We know that there are medium bombers and there are heavy bombers. The heavy bombers like B-52,B-2,B-1 are called strategic bombers. B-57 was not strategic bomber.Fighters are never called as Strategic even if they can drop a nuclear weapon, like the F-105 ThunderChief.

So what characterises a weapons system as "Strategic".........the range or destructive power...........Is the range of Su-27/30 short for being called as strategic? I discussed this with my class-mates of armed forces at Defence and Strategic Studies Dept of Quaid-e-Azam University, but we could not conclude......


----------



## blain2

shehbazi2001 said:


> Air-to-Air Gunnery at different Aspect Angles
> 
> In an episode of Dogfights called "Desert Aces", the leading jet ace Giora Epstein says that no matter how many fighters are up in the air against you, only one can be at your tail. And only that one can kill you.
> While that may be true in 1967 and 1973, now I think these things have changed.
> 
> I know that with AIM-9L and all modern heat-seekers can take shot even from front or from High Off-Boresight Angles (HOBA).But what remains is the gunnery. Can gun be used at aspect angles other than tail-chase? and more importantly does the PAF train for other than tail-aspect gun shooting?



Shehbazi,

AIM-9L is not an a true HOBS AAM. It definitely provides frontal aspect engagement opportunities though.


----------



## Blackpearl

shehbazi2001 said:


> Strategic and Tactical
> 
> We know that there are medium bombers and there are heavy bombers. The heavy bombers like B-52,B-2,B-1 are called strategic bombers. B-57 was not strategic bomber.Fighters are never called as Strategic even if they can drop a nuclear weapon, like the F-105 ThunderChief.
> 
> So what characterises a weapons system as "Strategic".........the range or destructive power...........Is the range of Su-27/30 short for being called as strategic? I discussed this with my class-mates of armed forces at Defence and Strategic Studies Dept of Quaid-e-Azam University, but we could not conclude......




I think, now a days, the distinction between a true strategic and tactical aircraft is gone. I mean, it all depands what type of mission is being performed by the aircraft.
The definition of strategic and tactical goes like this.
*Strategic* : Attacking industries, power generation houses, fuel dumps, government buildings, telecommunication exchanges, railways, seaports, harbour and so on.

Tactical : Attacking enemy forces, command posts/complexes, field headquarters, logistics depots, bridges, etc.

So we can see that it is the type of target which describe the nature of the mission.

Now consider F-16 a tactical fighter and B-2 strategic Bomber.
An f-16 with two AIM-9L, two drop tanks and a single MK-84 (2000 lbs) bomb is tasked to target a main grid station, so performing a strategic mission.

A B-2 Bomber, with carrying a dozen MK-82 (500 lbs) bombs attacking an enemy supply column of fuel bowsers along a road ( convoy leading to forward line troops), so B-2 is a on a tactical mission.
During USAF operation in Afghaniustan, many of us must have seen videos of B-52 raining MK-82s over Tora Bora mountasin, supposedly sheltering Talibans, the front line soldiers. So bomber was on a tactical mission.


----------



## Muradk

shehbazi2001 said:


> Air War at Night
> 
> 1) Night Interceptions
> 2) Night air combats
> 3) Night dogfights
> 
> In 1965 and 1971, we heard of night interceptions only. These interceptions were related to Canberras. It follows that INTERCEPTION means when u engage a BOMBER (I want to understand it) and not a fighter. Also "interception" is used for Martime Patrol Aircraft/Surveillance/ECM aircrafts. Is it correct?
> 
> While night air combat is a possibility with BVRs (took place in Blakans), logically it seems that night dogfight is rare because dogfight is mostly after visual contact. Some night dogfights took place during Korean war but still I dont know of a night dogfight of PAF?...........Does PAF train for dogfight at night with and without GCI / AWACS.....?



shehbazi: 
There are 2 way for Night Interception .
Ist we call it *POORMANS way *Intercection. The radar controller or GCI guide you to the plane, He sets a block which is the hight you will maintain , 99&#37; you dont see **** because they turn off their Anti Collision Beacon , so when the Radar controller say he is 5 mile away you turn on your targeting sitting wait for the tone and fire.

2nd way is doing it your self like in Mirage III , F-16 you have your own radar find the sucker and shoot him down.
in 1971 war we shot a canberra, between Mianwali and sagodha in the night. Thanks to the radar controllers excellent experience.
There are no dog fights in the night, iF the bandit pull's up or down he will loose or gain couple of thousand ft and there is no way you can go head to head with him. 
ACM is not something that you learn quickly. You will not become an ace by
the end of the ACM block of instruction. You will, however, learn several
concepts that will take years to perfect: 1) speed is life&#8212;never reach a point
where you end up out of airspeed and ideas; 2) know your aircraft to make
the enemy fight your fight, not vice versa; 3) your game plan and your
reactions in an engagement must be executed automatically; 4) the best
fighters press the edge of their operating envelope all the time.

Balkans was a fluke


----------



## shehbazi2001

False Canopy

I never saw a false canopy paint on a PAF aircraft, although from time to time, I happened to see it on the military aircrafts of the world. Some background information about it is also available at,

Canopy (aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Here wiki has mentioned that some pilots are skeptical of its advantage but I think there may be some turns or maneuvers where this false canopy can deceive the other pilot.

A false canopy paint on Gripen,

JetPhotos.Net Photo » 30 (CN: 39.3301) Hungary - Air Force Saab JAS-39C Gripen by Branko Cesljas - CroSpotterTeam


----------



## Muradk

shehbazi2001 said:


> False Canopy
> 
> I never saw a false canopy paint on a PAF aircraft, although from time to time, I happened to see it on the military aircrafts of the world. Some background information about it is also available at,
> 
> Canopy (aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> 
> Here wiki has mentioned that some pilots are skeptical of its advantage but I think there may be some turns or maneuvers where this false canopy can deceive the other pilot.
> 
> A false canopy paint on Gripen,
> 
> JetPhotos.Net Photo » 30 (CN: 39.3301) Hungary - Air Force Saab JAS-39C Gripen by Branko Cesljas - CroSpotterTeam




Yar False Canopy concept is one failed experiment, You can put a canopy on the tail it woun't make much difference , If they are shooting you they don't care where the canopy is. Plus if a pilot fails to identify a bandit, where is the plane headed north or south he has no business sitting in a fighter.


----------



## blain2

Canadian AF CF-18s are the primary users of this false canopy concept. Their pilots say that during DACT/ACM, it helps to confuse the other side, but in a real shooting war, who cares where the canopy is as stated above.


----------



## Blackpearl

shehbazi2001 said:


> Alignement of Guns
> 
> 
> I want to know that is it the same practice with jets like F-7s,Mirages and A-5s? and is it still left to the choice of pilots? ..........of course the fighters with a single gun are out of this discussion.



I dont think boresighting of guns, engagement of targets is left with the choice of pilots in PAF. There are always laid down standars technical procedures, organizational SOPs, for engagement of targets in aerial combat, as far as distance is concerned. Guns are boresighted at a pre determined distance. Its the pilot, who then have to engage the target at that distance bracket. Near or far from target, bullets will miss the target.

I have a question here, F-16 20 mm cannon can be used for straffing or not,


----------



## shehbazi2001

I think every gun on a combat aircraft can be used for Air to Ground work ie Strafing.....either fixed gun of aircraft or gun pod..........but u must change the mode............if ur mode is air-to-air and u use the gun towards a ground target, it shall miss the target..............;

I did the same mistake in Flight Simulations, once I was firing at an aircraft in air and gun was in strafing mode...............so no hits.........

In start, F-4s did not carry guns in Vietnam war, then gun pods were installed on the centreline pylon, and then USAF brought the F-4E with gun installed. But installation of gun in the nose changed the Centre of Gravity of aircraft and some internal fuel tanks had to be relocated to balance the CG. 

There are many pictures of F-16 firing its gun (more precisely cannon) on ground targets. One of such pictures is in MODERN FIGHTING AIRCRAFT series Volume 2 (1983), written by Richardson and published by Acro Publishing.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Blackwater said:


> I dont think boresighting of guns, engagement of targets is left with the choice of pilots in PAF. There are always laid down standars technical procedures, organizational SOPs, for engagement of targets in aerial combat, as far as distance is concerned. Guns are boresighted at a pre determined distance. Its the pilot, who then have to engage the target at that distance bracket. Near or far from target, bullets will miss the target.
> 
> I have a question here, F-16 20 mm cannon can be used for straffing or not,



ok may be its not left to pilots.............;;but its not clear whether the streams of bullets from both guns just go parallel to each other all the time or both the streams of bullets (say of F-7) meet at some distance ahead of aircraft ie having a focus point.

because the bullets dont maintain a straight line at long distance due to gravity and air-to-air gunnery gives best results only at short ranges, I think the focus point should not be far away............;

Further the focus point may be adjusted according to the mission, like for all F-7s, guns focal point can be optimised for air-to-air work and those of A-5s can be optimised for air-to-ground work. Effects of the gravity on the bullet in air-ground seems to be less serious than in air-to-air straight shooting or upward shooting.


----------



## Muradk

shehbazi2001 said:


> ok may be its not left to pilots.............;;but its not clear whether the streams of bullets from both guns just go parallel to each other all the time or both the streams of bullets (say of F-7) meet at some distance ahead of aircraft ie having a focus point.
> 
> because the bullets dont maintain a straight line at long distance due to gravity and air-to-air gunnery gives best results only at short ranges, I think the focus point should not be far away............;
> 
> Further the focus point may be adjusted according to the mission, like for all F-7s, guns focal point can be optimised for air-to-air work and those of A-5s can be optimised for air-to-ground work. Effects of the gravity on the bullet in air-ground seems to be less serious than in air-to-air straight shooting or upward shooting.



F-16 does strafing and it does it beautifully.
To compenste Gravity we keep the nose up by 20degree and then fire ( Air-to Air )

zB99xkfvxas[/media] - F16 20mm cannon



A-10 and F-16 both doing Strafing.

2QNyAtIgFjg[/media] - A-10 & F-16 strafing run


----------



## shehbazi2001

Muradk said:


> Yar False Canopy concept is one failed experiment, You can put a canopy on the tail it woun't make much difference , If they are shooting you they don't care where the canopy is. Plus if a pilot fails to identify a bandit, where is the plane headed north or south he has no business sitting in a fighter.



I agree, rather it is clear that a false canopy is useless against any type of missile or even gun bullets.........but its only role is in close-in dogfight......it may not be much useful but investment is also nothing......just a paint 

and I can think of some situations where it may be useful like in a horizontal turning fight.....u are chasing the opponent but somehow decide to disengage....now u shall have to reverse the direction, either first diving if altitude permits, or rolling the wings and pulling away.........u roll the wings and at the same time if the opponent turns his head back for a second.......he would get an impression that u r still pulling towards him.......

this deceptive painting can be taken further, and not just limited to false canopy........false pylons, false fuel tanks can also be painted over the wings.......and it costs almost nothing........

but I can think of reasons why PAF did not implement it........perhaps this deceptive paint would degrade the primary camoflauge colors on the upper and lower surfaces of the aircrafts........like a camoflauge color on the underside that blends with the sky and a color on the upper side that blends with the terrain.........it then becomes a comparative study of advantages and disadvantages......


----------



## Myth_buster_1

shehbazi2001 said:


> I agree, rather it is clear that a false canopy is useless against any type of missile or even gun bullets.........but its only role is in close-in dogfight......it may not be much useful but investment is also nothing......just a paint
> 
> and I can think of some situations where it may be useful like in a horizontal turning fight.....u are chasing the opponent but somehow decide to disengage....now u shall have to reverse the direction, either first diving if altitude permits, or rolling the wings and pulling away.........u roll the wings and at the same time if the opponent turns his head back for a second.......he would get an impression that u r still pulling towards him.......
> 
> this deceptive painting can be taken further, and not just limited to false canopy........false pylons, false fuel tanks can also be painted over the wings.......and it costs almost nothing........
> 
> but I can think of reasons why PAF did not implement it........perhaps this deceptive paint would degrade the primary camoflauge colors on the upper and lower surfaces of the aircrafts........like a camoflauge color on the underside that blends with the sky and a color on the upper side that blends with the terrain.........it then becomes a comparative study of advantages and disadvantages......



black canopy will not enhance any performance nether confuse the enemy, though it can confuse the spectators?.
what i think the most effective camouflage is "stealth camouflage"..


----------



## Muradk

I or I could say my engg made a fake canopy on 2 F-6s , when I was commanding 14 sqd. Me and my Flight Cmd including OC flying all 3 went head to head with each other, The fight was so close that we 3 were mostly 20 or 30 feet behind each other, My stick could feel his jet wash but after 10 min no one could shoot each other and then we changed positions and asked the OC fllying to shoot us while we point the fake canopy towards him at a distance of 3 miles . It took him couple of sec to spot us and shoot us down.
I think it was just waist of paint.


----------



## Imran Khan

sir murad whats the pc-3 with E-2C HAWKEYE AIR BORN EARLY WARNING SYSTEM.its same like SAAB-2000?


----------



## Neo

imran khan said:


> sir murad whats the pc-3 with E-2C HAWKEYE AIR BORN EARLY WARNING SYSTEM.its same like SAAB-2000?



Its another modern platform being developped for the Maritime AEW/AEWACS requirements, comepareable to Erieye.

​
The Lockheed Martin P-3 AEW Orion was developed using ex-Royal Australian Air Force and US Navy P-3B airframes, combined with the APS-125 Radar and Mission System (later retrofitted with an APS-138 system) from the United States Navy E-2 Hawkeye carrier-borne AEW&C aircraft. The United States Customs Service, which is at this time the sole user of the P-3 AEW, took delivery of the first one in 1988 and since 1993 has been operating a fleet of four aircraft for counter-narcotics missions in the US particularly over the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean. Other radars fitted to the P-3 AEW to fulfill the counter-narcotics mission includes the Hughes APG-63U, derived from the radar used in early model F-15 Eagle fighters.


----------



## Imran Khan

THANKS NEO. i get the point


----------



## Muradk

imran khan said:


> THANKS NEO. i get the point



Imran: these Maritime AEW/AEWACS have special equipment to track subs under water and throw a sonar on top of it and then drop a torpedo. Second way is they spot it or track it call in the heli which is carrying a torpedo and that does the work.


----------



## Imran Khan

thanks sir its the point they can detect subs and distroy them also but saab200 is multyrole AWCS from sea to air we seen in viedeo there is 8 modes to set the hight of saab2000


----------



## EagleEyes

imran khan said:


> thanks sir its the point they can detect subs and distroy them also but saab200 is multyrole AWCS from sea to air we seen in viedeo there is 8 modes to set the hight of saab2000



The point is to set a dedicated PN AWACS, so they can do their own thing.


----------



## Muradk

WebMaster said:


> The point is to set a dedicated PN AWACS, so they can do their own thing.



1 will be based in karachi.


----------



## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> The point is to set a dedicated PN AWACS, so they can do their own thing.



thats why PN is looking at the P-3H with the hawkeye-2000 radar.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Till a few years back or perhaps even now, I see all aircrafts (except F-16) in all photos with AIM-9P or Matra Magic-2.

Tornado-IDS, Jaguar of RAF and A-10 all are good ground-attack aircrafts and I think they all use at least AIM-9L , which is all aspect or ASRAAM. These aircrafts are not required to carry BVRs. Escorts are provided for that purpose. Rich countries even provide Jamming aircraft to them.

I dont know why we are still relying on AIM-9P. If that has been upgraded to AIM-9P-4, then may be its acceptable but I don't know if its really -9P-4.

I think PAF was trying to fit AIM-9L on F-7s but I don't know what happened then..........has this objective been achieved?


----------



## blain2

All the F-16s with blue tipped sidewinders are AIM-9L. There is no dearth of images on the web showing PAF F-16s with AIM-9L. The F-7PG at least is mated to AIM-9L with its Grifo radar. There is a very detailed article about this in the AFM from back in 2003. Alan Warnes was helped by Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail is writing that out. What makes the F-7PG a potent dog fighter is the AIM-9L and the maneuverability combination.

You are right about Mirages and the F-7s with Matra and AIM-9Ps though. Older aircraft, PAF probably did not want to go through the integration challenges of mating the 9L and now the 9Ms to them.


----------



## fatman17

blain2 said:


> There is a very *detailed article* about this in the AFM from back in 2003. Alan Warnes was helped by Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail is writing that out. What makes the F-7PG a potent dog fighter is the AIM-9L and the maneuverability combination..



this article i can provide if allowed by mods?


----------



## blain2

fatman17 said:


> this article i can provide if allowed by mods?



Its available here:
Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info


----------



## fatman17

blain2 said:


> Its available here:
> Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info



quick draw mcgraw! great article! what would happen if the F-7PG was fitted with a western powerplant? food for thought.


----------



## araz

fatman17 said:


> quick draw mcgraw! great article! what would happen if the F-7PG was fitted with a western powerplant? food for thought.



Wouldnt it still remain a short ranged point defnce fighter? Would that have any advantage, given that in its present configuration it is still a pretty potent fighter ( obviously considering the restriction)for this role.
My 2 Ps worth
Araz


----------



## fatman17

araz said:


> Wouldnt it still remain a short ranged point defnce fighter? Would that have any advantage, given that in its present configuration it is still a pretty potent fighter ( obviously considering the restriction)for this role.
> My 2 Ps worth
> Araz



i assume it would become a more reliable aircraft and hence not be replaced by the JF-17 any time soon.


----------



## shehbazi2001

blain2 said:


> Its available here:
> Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info




In this article, in the second-last paragraph titled "FT-7PG", 

this is the first sentence, which I think is wrong

"CAC did not design a double-delta version of the F-7MG". 

It must be "double-seater"


----------



## shehbazi2001

shehbazi2001 said:


> I was looking at the pictures of F-7PG and found that its windshield is single piece as compared to the 3-piece windshield of the F-7P.
> 
> We see that 3-piece windshield in the A-5, F-6, F-86, F-4 Phantom, F-14 Tomcat, Jaguar, Tornado, Mirage F-1 etc but that disappeared in all new fighters like F/A-18, F-15, F-16 etc.........
> 
> In Mirage-3 and Mirage-5, the forward canopy windshield was too 3-piece but later the Mirage-2000 changed to single piece windshield.....
> 
> so why was it necessary before to have a 3-piece windshield?
> 
> 
> what was exactly the purpose of this structure of the windshield (the forward canopy)....perhaps for housing the gunsights etc





Today I found an answer to my former question about the need for 3-piece windshield in early design fighters like F-86, Mirage-3/5, F-4 etc.........

The middle piece of these windshields was in fact "Bullet-Proof". That middle-piece was in front of pilot's face and gunsight, thus saving the pilot from the bullet fired from head-on.

These details were told by the host of Program "SHOWDOWN-AIR COMBAT" of the Discovery's Military Channel.

Showdown: Air Combat: Military Channel
some videos are given at
Military : Video : Military Channel (see F-86 Overview)


----------



## araz

fatman17 said:


> i assume it would become a more reliable aircraft and hence not be replaced by the JF-17 any time soon.



Fatman 
I will bow to your superior knowledge, but as far as i have read, F7 engine has a shorter life between overhauls but there have been no safety issues. So yes there might be some advantage in saving maintenance costs but to put a further investment in a 50s era fighter does not seem warranted. Secondly, the problem of it being short legged is due to its fuel carrying capacity, not a hungry engine and therefore may not encessarily be sorted by changing the engine. Engine choice again is an important issue, as RD93 costs 2.5 million$ a shot.
Am I barking up a rtotally wrong tree?. Feel free to educate.
WaSalam
Araz


----------



## Owais

*I have a question here!
does our air force have the capability to intercept and shoot down a B-52 bomber flying at 55000ft??? *


----------



## Muradk

shehbazi2001 said:


> Today I found an answer to my former question about the need for 3-piece windshield in early design fighters like F-86, Mirage-3/5, F-4 etc.........
> 
> The middle piece of these windshields was in fact "Bullet-Proof". That middle-piece was in front of pilot's face and gunsight, thus saving the pilot from the bullet fired from head-on.
> 
> These details were told by the host of Program "SHOWDOWN-AIR COMBAT" of the Discovery's Military Channel.
> 
> Showdown: Air Combat: Military Channel
> some videos are given at
> Military : Video : Military Channel (see F-86 Overview)





Bullet-Proof or not it does'nt make a different the glass it not capable of suporting 3 to 4 tons may be more, just take an example a duck flying at 5 miles per hour having a weight of 5 lb when it hits a plane at 300Kn its impact 3 tons on the plane.

A simple question can you tell me when you fire a shot from a gun or a pistol when you squeez the triger there is a big bang and the bullet comes out , why the loud bang?


----------



## Interceptor

Owais said:


> *I have a question here!
> does our air force have the capability to intercept and shoot down a B-52 bomber flying at 55000ft??? *



The B-52H cant fly over 50.000ft, its possible to intercept depending how good the Pakistani ground forces are, the B-52 is an ancient plane but is built to last for the future, at the moment the life span of the newly modified B-5's
is around 2040, tracking the Plane at high altitudes might require some good radars like the *AN/TPS-77* this one we just received in the US military assistance package can detect at an evelations of 100.000ft, as I said the B-52 is ancient but packed with the latest tech, it has the ability to launch various payload and in context of payload it is also USAF only bomber with the ability release the largest delivery system built. The B-52 has also the ability to launch multiple cruise missiles, and drop precision guided bombs, it to be intercepted may in terms be limited, the Pakistani Air force is more than capable to destroy a subsonic aircraft, however, there are limitations in the PAF of how quick the PAF can react to the call, the B-52 as told can launch various payload, and in Pakistans case to destroy key location would probably be with Cruise missile payload, it depends how quick the PAF can react to a B-52 assault, and it also depends how well protected the bomber is. The other alternative is the HQ-2 surface to air missile, historically it has destroyed a U2 reconance plane so it is a capable weapon in this age after so many modifications.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Muradk said:


> Bullet-Proof or not it does'nt make a different the glass it not capable of suporting 3 to 4 tons may be more, just take an example a duck flying at 5 miles per hour having a weight of 5 lb when it hits a plane at 300Kn its impact 3 tons on the plane.
> 
> A simple question can you tell me when you fire a shot from a gun or a pistol when you squeez the triger there is a big bang and the bullet comes out , why the loud bang?



When a shot is fired, hot and high-pressure air from inside the barrel expands suddenly out in the air and that produces the big noise. Now how a professional silencer or a bottle fitted to the barrel suppresses the bang??? it provides an extra space for the air to expand/////

The same principle applies to the silencers of vehicles and motorcycles. Remove the silencer from motorcycle and the noise shall be unbearable.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Interceptor said:


> The B-52H cant fly over 50.000ft, its possible to intercept depending how good the Pakistani ground forces are, the B-52 is an ancient plane but is built to last for the future, at the moment the life span of the newly modified B-5's
> is around 2040, tracking the Plane at high altitudes might require some good radars like the *AN/TPS-77* this one we just received in the US military assistance package can detect at an evelations of 100.000ft, as I said the B-52 is ancient but packed with the latest tech, it has the ability to launch various payload and in context of payload it is also USAF only bomber with the ability release the largest delivery system built. The B-52 has also the ability to launch multiple cruise missiles, and drop precision guided bombs, it to be intercepted may in terms be limited, the Pakistani Air force is more than capable to destroy a subsonic aircraft, however, there are limitations in the PAF of how quick the PAF can react to the call, the B-52 as told can launch various payload, and in Pakistans case to destroy key location would probably be with Cruise missile payload, it depends how quick the PAF can react to a B-52 assault, and it also depends how well protected the bomber is. The other alternative is the HQ-2 surface to air missile, historically it has destroyed a U2 reconance plane so it is a capable weapon in this age after so many modifications.



Tracking a bomber or any aircraft at high altitude is more easy than tracking them at low altitude. An aircraft in the background of clear sky gives excellent radar reflections because there is no CLUTTER.
The difficulty with tracking low flying aircrafts is the ground clutter, the false radar returns. B-52 is not stealth, its RCS is huge and it can be tracked even by WW-2 radars, no need for high-tech radars for B-52. B-52 has eight jet engines, its IR-signature must also be immense. If not protected by escorts, it should not be a difficult target.

For shooting down very high flying aircraft, I think that fighters armed with BVRs are more suitable than SAMs. For shooting down an aircraft flying at 70,000 feet, the SAM shall have to cover 70,000 feet from ground up, a BVR may only need to cover 20,000 feet because the launch aircrafts can go to 50,000 feet themselves. However the two can be combined.

A BVR AAM is not only for firing straight ahead, it can be easily fired in upward direction. For details see how Iranian F-14A Tomcats dealt with Iraqi Mig-25s.


----------



## Interceptor

Yes of course, but my concerns in my post were the delivery of the B-52, which will be quick, I am sure the USAF will not send us something for target practice, hence the following got me worried, I would rather use something quick to take out a bomber like B-52, as IMO the longer it stay in the sky the more damage it will cause. They used this in the Gulf War and it dropped half of the bombs used in the entire war,That is what concerned me, its got that ability to launch any sort of payload especially in my opinion if a confrontation occurs cruise missiles will be first choice.


----------



## Muradk

shehbazi2001 said:


> When a shot is fired, hot and high-pressure air from inside the barrel expands suddenly out in the air and that produces the big noise. Now how a professional silencer or a bottle fitted to the barrel suppresses the bang??? it provides an extra space for the air to expand/////
> 
> The same principle applies to the silencers of vehicles and motorcycles. Remove the silencer from motorcycle and the noise shall be unbearable.



no wrong answer any one else like to go for it before I answer, Its fairly simple.


----------



## Interceptor

Due to the pressure that builds up behind the bullet as it tries to leave the barrel, and the hot gas spreads around as it does this the vacuum created which makes that sound, like uncorking a bottle, the sound of the bullet when it is in mid air travelling at super sonic speed has its own his created from the sonic boom.


----------



## Tang0

As for the multipane on the earlier fighter canopies, it is to protect against "Airborn Organic Material", like MuradK said. The reason f-16 and later don't feature it is merely materials technology. The new canopies deform on impact and slowly go outward again without interference. I seem to recall during canopy testing for the f-16 they actually fired a chicken out of an aircannon. This may simply be an "Urban Legend", but North American geese can fly above 20,000 ft, and pose something of a problem, mostly for CAP patrol, as I don't think there are any birds that fly that high outside of North America. Whooper swans have been spotted at over 29,000 ft. in Europe, but they are nowhere near as common as the Canadian goose.


----------



## Tang0

On a side note:

"The altitude record is held by a R&#252;ppell's griffon Gyps rueppelli, a vulture with a 10-foot wingspan. On November 29, 1975 one was sucked into a jet engine 37,900 feet above the Ivory Coast in West Africa. The plane was damaged but landed safely. What the bird was doing up so high I have no idea, since this species is not migratory."

Seems there are very high flying birds all over, guess I was wrong.


----------



## Muradk

Interceptor said:


> Due to the pressure that builds up behind the bullet as it tries to leave the barrel, and the hot gas spreads around as it does this the vacuum created which makes that sound, like uncorking a bottle, the sound of the bullet when it is in mid air travelling at super sonic speed has its own his created from the sonic boom.[/QUOT
> 
> you got it. The bullet goes supersonic that s why it makes the bang.


----------



## Tang0

Sir, Sub-Sonic ammunition is loud as well if it is not fired from a silenced weapon. Although "Breaking the Sound Barrier" is a significant contributer, I think any study of firearms and suppressors would reveal the "Ballistic Crack" effect is actually responsible for only a portion of the decibel level of the original report. Otherwise, bullets would sound very loud passing nearby a mile away. The majority of the effect is the expansion caused by exhaust gases. That is why a short barreled carbine like the M-4 sounds much louder than an M-16, despite the fact that the ammunition and mechanism is the same. Although the Ballistic Crack alone is quite loud, firing super-sonic ammo with a suppressor is usually "Sound Safe" I.E, you don't have to wear earmuffs. Really, just think about all the sound a firecracker makes...


----------



## shehbazi2001

Yes the sonic boom also contributes to the sound of bullet but its a small part of it. The main noise source is the muzzle blast. Suppressors or silencers are usually designed to suppress the noise of muzzle blast as its more important. Sonic boom is loud for aircrafts but as bullets are small, so is the effect. And this supersonic noise is reduced further for those bullets which are of smaller calibre. And the Subsonic ammunition does not generate the sonic boom.

Further, a suppressor mostly does not reduce the speed of bullet.............but still the noise or bang is reduced/


----------



## Tang0

On the question of a B-52, yeah, in US military parlance, the B-52 is the "Bomb Truck". It wouldn't last 10 minutes in any type of modern anti-air environment, but when all the enemy air technology newer than say ~1950 has already been eliminated, it works wonders. It is also has a unit cost of 30-50 million dollars, compared to the 2.2 billion dollar price tag on the B-2, or the 281 million dollar price tag on the B-1.


----------



## Comet

They are still flying the B2's which according to their pilots were flown by their parents and grandparents. so its really getting cheap for them.


----------



## shehbazi2001

umairp said:


> They are still flying the B2's which according to their pilots were flown by their parents and grandparents. so its really getting cheap for them.



I suppose u mean B-52, not B-2.


----------



## Comet

Oh sorry......
Yes B52's the BUFFs ( Big Ugly Fat Fellow )


----------



## Interceptor

Tang0 said:


> On the question of a B-52, yeah, in US military parlance, the B-52 is the "Bomb Truck". It wouldn't last 10 minutes in any type of modern anti-air environment, but when all the enemy air technology newer than say ~1950 has already been eliminated, it works wonders. It is also has a unit cost of 30-50 million dollars, compared to the 2.2 billion dollar price tag on the B-2, or the 281 million dollar price tag on the B-1.



Well the price tag due to few thing in my opinion, one the B-52 is a absolute bomber concept, it is also gigantic compared to any other bombers, the design is nearly 60 odd years old building one of these on request is expensive, however, the USAF force has mostly refurbished these B-52H's and started using them, they are specialist bomber units, if you know the history of the UK bomber planes you will see that these kind of large bombers are mostly absolute, look at the Victor and Veliant they are more sophisticated bombers than the B-52H, however, they are now used as cargo planes, when they were designed, they were specialist bombers for the cold war to attack Russian targets with nuclear warheads.


----------



## niaz

Interceptor said:


> Well the price tag due to few thing in my opinion, one the B-52 is a absolute bomber concept, it is also gigantic compared to any other bombers, the design is nearly 60 odd years old building one of these on request is expensive, however, the USAF force has mostly refurbished these B-52H's and started using them, they are specialist bomber units, if you know the history of the UK bomber planes you will see that these kind of large bombers are mostly absolute, look at the Victor and Veliant they are more sophisticated bombers than the B-52H, however, they are now used as cargo planes, when they were designed, they were specialist bombers for the cold war to attack Russian targets with nuclear warheads.



The reason why the famed V-Bombers of the Royal Airforce were laid off and converted into tankers; was because UK defence was at that time geared to fighting USSR. It was considered far more cost effective to have sub-marine launched nuclear missiles strike force than have a manned nuclear bomber force. The policy decision was taken by the the Labour Govt under Harold Wilson in 1964.


----------



## Interceptor

^

Thanks Niaz thats what I didn't remember, this is your speciality the extra detail encouraging better debate, why is the B-52 still in operation, even though there are much more sleeker and advanced delivery systems developed.


----------



## niaz

B-52 is an excellent long range high altitude carpet bomber. They were used heavily in the Vietnam War in 60's. They were used in both the Iraqi wars and also in Afghanistan 40 years later.

IMO US strategy makers think that in future conflicts, a need exists 
for a conventional and nuclear bomber; mainly to implement US decisions globally. B-52 fits that need.


----------



## Tang0

Congressional study from 2003 that decided to keep the B-52 running until 2040 (It was scheduled to be retired well before 2010)

From Wikipedia Summary

The Air Force intends to keep the B-52 in service until at least 2040, an unprecedented length of service for a military aircraft. B-52s are periodically refurbished at the USAF maintenance depots such as Tinker Air Force Base, Oklahoma.

The USAF continues to rely on the B-52 because it remains an effective and economical heavy bomber, particularly in the type of missions that have been conducted since the end of the Cold War, mainly against nations that have limited air defense capabilities. The B-52's capacity to "loiter" for extended periods over (or even well outside) the battlefield, while delivering precision standoff and direct fire munitions, has been a valuable asset in conflicts such as Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan.

The speed and stealth of the B-1 Lancer and B-2 Spirit have only been useful until enemy air defenses were destroyed, a task that has been swiftly achieved in recent conflicts. The B-52 boasts the highest mission capable rate of the three types of heavy bombers operated by the USAF. Whereas the B-1 averages a 53&#37; ready rate, and the B-2 achieved a 26%, the B-52 averages 80%.

Link to study:
http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/reports/2004-06-b52h_re-engining.pdf


----------



## shehbazi2001

Going off from the B-52, I want to go to code system of the military.

While taking a quiz on the site of military channel, I read that japanese zero fighter was code-named as zeke. The reason being that code names were given to all types of japanese aircraft and the rules were,

Boy names for Fighters
Girl names for Bombers
Bird names for Gliders
Tree names for Trainers

It be would be interesting to know whether PAF and IAF also gives code names to various aircrafts of other side.

In the Middle East, the urdu conversation of our pilots was listened by IDF/AF, this means that the radio communication was not encrypted.

It also means that either we encrypt the communication or we use codes, so that even if someone intercepts the messages, they are not going to understand it. Perhaps for the added safety, we can use encrypted+coded messaging system.<

I want to share an interesting old method of top secret communication, perhaps used by ancient romans. It was to remove all the hair over the head of a slave, servant or soldier and then write the message over his head, then let the hair grow and then the agent was ready to be sent to deliver it. 

The method was slow but the method seemed to be safe. But there was a limitation that if the king changed the decision during the hair growth period, everything went in vain.


----------



## Muradk

Well Iraqis had a simpler way shove the message into the soilders butt. Atleast saves times for something to grow.
In Arab war we spoke in Punjabi, Pusto regularly, but in Combat we spoke Arabic but not like you see in the movie TOP GUN , the dog fights starts and both lead and wingman and going frantic , no we had a simpler way.
Speak only needed and our arabic was better than the locals. IAF found out when we accidently spoke punjabi on a CAP mission. Till today my theory is that IAF didn't have the capabilities to listen to us but the US Carrier standing in the gulf could and they told them.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Radio Communications

When a pilot intercepts an intruder and escorts him out of his airspace, I think that he communicates with the intruding pilots and tells him to turn back. Now I think this communication is done on the International Frequency. I hope this frequency is known to all air forces of the world. Just to have an idea, whats that frequency?

When the Hakimullah forced the IAF Gnat to land, perhaps Hakim sahib did not talk to him on International Frequency because afterwards the Indian Pilots said that he mistook Pasroor strip for an indian one.

Secondly a pilot communicates with other fellow airborne pilots and ground controller. Is this communication between air force elements done on the same frequency? I mean with fellow aircraft and ground controller.......Because sometimes in wars, I read that the commanders were listening to the air combat on the ground.

Thirdly, a pilot needs to communicate with the Forward Air Controllers of army. Now I suppose the frequency for communication with army and navy shall be different than the one used by air force elements among themselves.

Fourth, there is mention of Emergency Frequency.....is it the same international frequency or this is another.......Emergency frequency seems to be for distress or mayday calls......

wikipedia says that the civilian aircraft emergency frequency is 121.5 MHz. Military aircraft use 243 MHz. 

International Code of Signals (INTERCO) seems to be used by naval elements for martime signalling. What about International Aviation Code of Signals.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Visual Aircraft Signals

During many documentaries, I watched that wings movements (rolling right and then rolling left) were used as signals to the fellow or even saluts to opponent pilots.......what other movements can possibly be a signal by the formation leader to the rest of formation??? (eg start the attack run) ...thus avoiding the use of radio......


But perhaps other formation members cant use such signals because they are not visible to those who are flying ahead of them.


----------



## Sam Dhanraj

shehbazi,

Here you can find some standard Visual Communication Examples amongst others 

Downloads - Latest additions

While I am sure that Murad Sir and X-Man would share some interesting visual signals of their own that they might have used...


----------



## x_man

Shahbazi

The frequencies 121.5 Mhz lies in VHF and 243.0 Mhz is in UHF band and are recognised an international emergency frequencies..With few exceptions, military aircrafts use UHF frequencies because its range is shorter and message quality is clearer than VHF that is used by all civil traffic because of its longer ranges..Trans Atlantic flights use HF band, that has even more range but voice quality is much poorer than UHF or VHF...Remember the rule...lower the frequency, higher the wavelength and farther the range..

All the civilian pilots are taught about interception procedures we have already discussed all this in another thread earlier ( http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/9416-paf-scramble-time.html) .If you are looking for detailed hand signals.follow the below link..its a word document and explains the signals..
http://www.otto5.com/_spi/InterceptSignals.doc

To tell you frankly, with better COMINT / ELINT facilities on both sides, despite all the codes and secret jargon, we exactly know what IAF is doing and they know what we are uptoEach time pilot presses his transmission button, theres someone who is recording itcall it Spy Vs SpyThe only thing that the enemy cant monitor, are the hand signals.

To avoid any unnecessary R/T, formation members use many hand signals from start till landingand also in case of a radio failure , there are dedicated hand/finger signals to tell other member that whats your exact problem

The sideways wing movement you mention is called Rocking the Wings and is used to draw the attention of other member in case of radio failure...


----------



## Muradk

Yes now the Technology is advanced enough to talk to each other if they like 99% dont like to talk hand signals are universal , in the back 80s There is no such communication, Pilots are totally deaf and D in the skies , WE forced landed 2 Afghan Migs in total there were 4 one got shot one damaged and the other 2 got into a pickel instaed of running back wards to his base he kept going inside PAK Air Space crossed Parachinar by that time orders were to shoot and they were easy targets GCI said SAMs are ready Get out the area. but the PAF pilot and his wing man said no wait let me try something he went aside the Mig and fired a shot burst and them lowered his gears, It took both the Migs couple of sec to lower there gears down , PAF pilot just said by pointing follow him and they both landed in Peshawar and them 4 F-16s brought them to Chaklala.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Ok thanks...thats what I wanted know....what I extract from both the posts of xman and Muradk is that its not conventional to talk to the intruder over the radio using international frequency......Perhaps it will only be possible if he also switches to that frequency......so the conventional method of communication with an intruder is hand signals or other visual aircraft movements supposing that the intruder is not in the mood of fighting.


----------



## Blackpearl

Aerial Communication via moarse code.

If somebody has seen the movie, 'Critical Decision or Executive Decision', SF personnel, on board the hijacked aircraft transmitted a short message through Elevator Position lights to a following F-15, not to shoot the aircraft, and ask for 10 more minutes. One of the SF personnel disconnected the power cable going to rear lights and then by simply making and breaking the contact, he generated a moarse code message (dash and dots). The pilot on board, interceptor, read the message as lights were switched on and off, . Now it is one of the possibilty (atleast theoratically) that leader, can send a meassage to his wingman, or following aircraft (3 ship/4 ship formation), by simply switching on and off aircarft position lights, by Light toggle switch. However, it can only be done once aircarft is at safe altitude and attitude as, one hand of the pilot will be on the toggle switch. The toggle switch must also be strong enough, to take this rigirous punishment, otherwise it may simply sheer off. The advantage is that aircarft may receive this message in any other fotrmation and do not require to be in Line Abrest formation, to visually see the leaders hand signal.

Practically, i dont thgink it is ever practised.


----------



## shehbazi2001

I want to know that where in Pakistan are stored those two aircrafts (Su-7+Mig-21) of Afghan Air Force that defected to Pakistan during Afghan War.

The Su-7 landed at Dalbandin strip on 20 Nov 1983 and Mig-21 landed in Kohat on 12 Oct 1986. In principle, they should be in PAF Museum but still it will be good if someone can verify.

I heard an interesting thing about the Su-7 that when examined by PAF, the radio communication equipment in that Russian-made Su-7 was of US origin. What can be the purpose of using US radio equipment by Russians? a deception or just looking for quality????

Also it would be nice to know if PAF has taken back the control of Dalbandin from US after Operation Enduring Freedom..........


----------



## blain2

At least one of these aircraft is at the PAF museum in Karachi.


----------



## Imran Khan

sir murad who can a small bird crash the plane?


----------



## p2prada

Need permission from Mods
There is a social networking site called Orkut with various communities including one called the "JF-17 Thunder".

There was a thread called "Su-30 vs F-16". Most of the pakistani's believed the F-16 to be superior to the MKI in every way until a "PAF Airforce Pilot" jumped into the discussion. He claims to works in the AHQ, his father is an ACAS , and he is a close friend of the "Chief Project Director JF-17". He is telling the truth cause it was confirmed he works for the PAF. His first name is ASAD.

He listed various drawbacks within the PAF and many more. If u are interested i can give u the link and _post the comments of the pilot_(since the site needs registration to view posts). 

I know u have a policy regarding other forums. But this is a non moderated forum. Its a social networking site. So, can i post?


----------



## EagleEyes

Please do so.

Would be interesting.

Thanks.


----------



## p2prada

Thanks



http://www.orkut.co.in/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=4706074&tid=2435110426634041068

It might be easier for non members to just join and view the posts urself.
I m NOT ADVERTISING THE NETWORKING SITE

He, ASAD ALI was arguing with another guy called SAAD, a cadet in a defence academy. Though SAAD deleted his posts ASADs posts are still there.
Most of this happened in 2006. So, some inaccuracies exist, like PAF was denied the RD-93.


I m posting all of ASADs posts.




> come on guys..this is not world war 2 you are tawkin about
> 
> 
> wat the hell can a pilot do if his opponents can shoot him down from over a 100 kms away ??..
> 
> 
> wake up
> 
> times have changed.....
> 
> in todays air warfare
> 
> its the machine, its avionics and weapons...not the man....
> 
> 
> the MAN in the cockpit is the only limiting factor in todays fighter design






> just tell me oen thing....
> 
> 
> IAF flies a pair of MiG-29s....they carry a total of 6 AAM.....4 of them BVR.......so in one flight there are 8 BVRs....we launch 2 F-16s to intercept them....
> 
> 1 IAF does not need ot cross into pak to shoot them down
> 
> 2 IAF keeps PAF on the defensive
> 
> 3 4 BVRs fer each PAF fighter..
> 
> 
> 
> jeeeeeeez man..do a little reseach before you come and comment on something liekt his
> 
> quite frankly...unless we get BVRMs....IAF has PAF by the balls





> the only effective conuter is Chaffs and very very veyr hard manuvering.....
> 
> if we are buzy being totally on the defensive...and not pose any threat tot he intruder....its better not to fly the fighters at all and save them for another day
> 
> also
> 
> see the term DOGFIGHT ahs been replaced by the term KNIFE-FIGHT....
> 
> you know wat that is?
> 
> 
> in a knife fight....the 2 opponents are tied togather by one wrist....leaving just 1 hand free for each person.....they are both handed a knife.....and its a fight till the death....
> 
> one wins....one losses....but both of them are injured...
> 
> 
> this is exactly wat dog fights have turned into...
> 
> 
> you enter a dogfight....
> 
> 1 both you and ur opponents plane will be damaged.....
> 
> 2 you burn up all ur fuel
> 
> 3 YOU ARE A VERY VERY VISIBLE TARGET FOR THE ENTIRE BATTLE FIELD
> 
> one wins...the other is shot down.....but the winner also has a damaged jet and no fuel...thus leaving him combat ineffective for the rest of the fight....and probably the rest of the war as well.....
> 
> being visible in the AO is wat gets you killed....and dog fights make you very very visible...
> 
> 
> NO SELF-RESPECTING PILOT WANTS TO GET INTO A DOGFIGHT....but everyone trains hard for that
> 
> 
> the USAF is the most succuessful AF cuz it doesnt get into dogfights...IAF knows this...and is capitolizing on this
> 
> do you research dude...
> 
> in the JF-17....EVERYTHING from the engine airframe tot he avionics is all chinese...only the radar will be french..
> 
> the russian RD-93 engine which was originally designed to be put on the JF-17 has been withdrawn by the russians.....
> 
> thus the remaining whole package is chinese
> 
> for you info....china is demanding 10 milllion dollars for just ONE test launch of an SD-10....
> 
> 
> oh and plzz.....being russian dont not make a jet infirior in any way...
> 
> those Su-30 ( NOT THE SU-30MKi which is the most advanced flanker in production today) and the MiG-29z kick *** in dogfights....that is if u get near them
> 
> 
> the Su-30/SU-30MKi is currently the top ranking jet in asia/europe...the only competitors being the F-15C, F-22 and EF-2000
> 
> you use the net....start looking around....and get to know just exactly wat IAF and russian jets are capable of...
> 
> *oh n PAf lags behind IAF by more than 20 yrs *
> 
> one more thingi...
> 
> JF-17 wont be entering service anytime before early 2008
> 
> 
> and on a side note
> 
> 
> our Mirages III/V with ROSE I/II upgrades are more advance and expensive then the current fleet of F-16s we have
> 
> dude....thee EFFECTIVE range of the AIM-120C AMRAAM is 60 miles....thats 100 kmz...
> 
> second.....yea th MLU'ed Vipers will be technically more advanced than the mirages..
> 
> third....i live next door to Chief Project Director JF-17....so dun bullshit me on that...Chief Consultant for the JF is a very close frnd
> 
> 4th...the russian jets are superior dogfights...even the americans admit to that....BUT that only comes into play if the russians get anywhere near the US fighter....
> 
> got the point.....
> 
> the whole concept is never to get visual with the enemy...never give him a shot...always keep him on the defensive....you cant do that without BVRs....which PAFz lacks..
> 
> oh btw...if things go right..wel just moght get AIM-120c AMRAAMs n AGM-88 HARMs with the Viper package
> 
> 
> as for PAFs claims on th JF.....do u even know the history of the project?
> 
> did u kno wen PAF initated the project with china.....then called the FC-1?....any idea?.....it was 1983
> 
> did u know just how many times PAF has pulled out of this project?.....this is the 3rd time PAF joined this project....1st time we started the project...its was called the FC-1....2nd time we joined in...we called it super-7 and sayin it was a whole new jet concept......and now we are calling it the JF-17
> 
> originally the work on this jet was done by the US company Gruman ( which designed n made the F-14 Tomcat )....from then on it was ALL RUSSIAN N CHINESE.....
> 
> westren avionices n engines ( p404 i guess was planed initailly) were planed....the west withdrew all support n tech for the project due to 1 the preslar n brown agreements n 2nd the 1998 nuke tests were.....even the russian say they are not gonna let china give us the RD-93 engines for the JF....sayin it made china sign an end user agreement on the engine...
> 
> 
> so where is the deal.....the WHOLE of JF-17 is chinese....weapons will be intergrated in pakistan by AWC, POF and PEC ( not PAC)...the jet will be assembled at PAC...
> 
> _SAAD's Post:>>And yes MiG-29 and Su-30 are good dog fighters specially with their HMS ......... but PAF has great experiance on these machines in Syria amd Iraq. and with Su-30 in China ..... so this will be a great advantage on our side where Indians have only done exercises with F-16s only twice ""_
> 
> ASADs reply>>>
> got news for you dude....
> 
> we tested the MiG-29z for PAF.....we didnt take them cuz we cudnt afford to maintain them...
> 
> btw...PAF pilots other than in russia doing evaluation fights....have never flown a MiG-29....
> 
> PAF was in NO WAY involved in any iraq war in anytime ...
> 
> 
> OH N PLZZ....
> 
> we operate Mirages n F-7s ( chinese mig-21s)....these 2 jets make up about 2/3rds of our fighter fleet...and IAF operates both mirages ( including mirage 2k) and MiG-21 with Bison upgrades....india flies half of our fleet.....so dont even think kay we have the upper hand :S...
> 
> as for exercises...
> 
> did u by any chance forget IAF took its fighter to alaska for exercises against multiple air forces ?.....and IAF also commanded quite a few of the missions ?...that is IAF pilots flying as commander of the op?...
> 
> 
> did u know....the MiG-25R routinly came overhead our istallations but PAF couldnt do anything about it ?..
> 
> 
> come on man...wake up...stop living under a rock :S
> 
> lolzz
> 
> iraqiz never gave a **** abt pakistan or PAF for that matter..just exactly which jet did the iraqi AF operated fer which our pilots were qualified to fly?..Iraqi AF was wholely trained by the russians, ukrainians and the french to some extent
> 
> 
> about the FC-1 project..initially PAF wanted to upgrade the F-7Ps..but within a week of initiation of the project..it was planed to be a totally seperate , medium tech interceptor with bom,bing as a 2ndry role.
> 
> initial work n feasibility study was done by Gruman USA, engine study was conducted by PW..it turned out to be a highly feasible fighter, with full multirole capability with westren avionices n the P404 was the most sutied engine for the project
> 
> this was early 1983
> 
> in late 1983, the US sold the F-16A/B blocks 10 thru 20 to the PAF
> 
> PAF lost all interest in the FC-1..n poulled out of the project..but china continued to develop the jet with US assistance.
> 
> then came your preslar n brown agreements..we lost all support tot he F-16s and china lost the support to the FC-1..we turned back tot he FC-1..this time calling it the Super-7..meanwhile china had asked MiG to help out with the project, which MiG did..PAF was laging wayy behind in the development of the FC-1..n heace cudnt play any major role in it from then on..we only had 10 to to 20 ppl on the prject in china where as china had 2 to 3000
> 
> then came 1995-96 the 2nd gulf war..support of the US got us the support n spares we needed for the Vipers..n thus PAF again lost interest n AGAIN pulled out of hte project Super-7
> 
> 
> then came your nuke tests in 98 and again for 2 yrs we cudnt think of wat to do..n then PAC reminded PAF of the FC-1/Super-7..PAF decided to join back in like 2002..this time calling it the JF-17
> 
> we wre suppose to get the RD-93 engine (modified versions of the RD-33 flyin on the MiG-29) russia has withdrawn it.
> 
> wen this jet comes off the production line..its gonna be wholey chinese with frnch radar and avionces derived from the IAI LAVI project
> 
> @ saad...
> 
> 
> 
> are u telling me that an airforce who operates in an AWACS environment will have less knowledge abt AWACS :S....
> 
> 
> anti BVR tactics ?....like wat chaffs, hard manuvering, low level flying, usign ground clutter to confue the missile??..
> 
> oo bhai...no more arguements from me...
> 
> IAF can take total air dominance of pak airspace in 24 hrs....PAF knows this...thats y we going after the F-16s...
> 
> but even if we get the F-22....without BVR we can never win...
> 
> have u read the specs of the Bison fire controll system ?...
> 
> 
> the last exercise PAf did with another AF was in 1997....wen our F-7 n mirages operated against a US carrier task force......uss say phalay it was in the 80z?....did u know that?
> 
> 
> stop lissinging to wat the media is tell you...get on the net...start talking to ppl...and you`ll know...
> 
> ur still a cadet in sargodha......your mind is being molded to think PAF is better than the IAF...
> 
> so no more arguements from my side...
> 
> 
> but mark my words....my dad is an ACAS...IAF can take down PAF in 24 hrs..
> 
> oh and...about procurment..
> 
> taking into consideration wat IAF is beign offered....our Block50/52 Vipers are nothing..
> 
> 
> theya re being offered the Eurofighter EF-2000, Su-35 Terminator, E/F-18E/F Super Horent, F-16C/D/ADF Blocks 50/52/60, Mirage 2005/2009 adn the Rafeal...
> 
> every single one of these fighter are state of the art....
> 
> and the JF-17....well its still inferior to the F-16C/D block 30 and Mirage 2000....
> 
> their MiG-25 is being replaced by russia with MiG-31 Foxhounds almost free of cost.....u must already know the MiG-25/31 is the fastest and highest flying operation fighter on the planet
> 
> Phalcon AWACS being inducted....
> 
> 
> do the maths yourself.....
> 
> ps
> 
> the USAF/USANG/USN will be exersicing with the IAF every year if not bi-annually in not only AWACS but also digial battlefield environments
> 
> now you do the maths
> 
> yaaaar....when exactly was any of our units deplyed ?.
> 
> that bullshit about turkey is exactly that..BULLSHIT...
> 
> and we work with the saudi civil defencse force...not the Airforce.....btw...50&#37; of their airforce is manned by the USAF...
> 
> 
> mind it SD-10 has never been test fired...china asked PAF 10 million dollars for one test fire..
> 
> those Bison carry teh Amos BVR....n shes got a range of abt 70 kmz.....that more than the radar range of our F-7P.......you are tawking about the basic MiG-21...not the MiG-21 with Bison upgrades
> 
> EriEye is an AEW platform.....its just a flying radar.....nothing else......the Phalcon is AEW & C ( AWACS ) its a stand alone air-borne controll system.....
> 
> wen we operate with the EriEye.our interceptors still will effectively flyin under GCI type controll....AWACS eliminate ground control entirely...
> 
> 
> about the last stand off ?....beta kargil may IAF nay pak army ki jo ki do u know that....the IAF kiled 2000 soldiers in 1 week....dad PAF do anything...NO....so dont bullshit me on ops...
> 
> abt 2000/01.....India was never gonna attack us.....they provoked us....they were watchin us....they know exactly how we will react to them....and therefore plan accordingly....
> 
> 
> IAF is a hell lot more professional than wat they are potrayed here...even ISI admits to that....they monitor R/T traffic of both PAF n IAF....IAF is 10 times more diciplined than PAF...this is wat ISI says
> 
> LOLZZ
> 
> u acutally think NATO will let PAF piltos fly their jets in combat exercises ?..
> 
> PAF went to turkey as observers PERIOD.....no participation wat so ever
> 
> 
> ISI monitors both PAF n IAF activites and RT.....dont believe me SO WAT...
> 
> 
> and why r you talkin about WUD IF.....chances are we are not going to get any BVR...and teh SD-10 is a piece of ****...y cuz my dad teams went for its evaluation so i know
> 
> abt Kargil......we even lie abt the 1965 n 1971 wars...jsut y wuoldnt the army lie about this today......do you have any idea on the number of helo soties flown just to get the KIA out of kargil?....each flight carried 20 dead.....there were over 100 flights......do the maths..
> 
> 
> PAf did participate in the kargil conflict JUST TO SHOW THE PAK ARMY WAT IS GONNA HAPPEN TO IT IF PAF DID EXIST..
> 
> y did it do that.....because the amry had plans ot make PAF part of the ARMY AIR CORP....and not let it be a seperate arm...
> 
> oh and by the time ur out of the academy...pakistan will have a 4th service....
> 
> 
> deekh this is the problem with PAf....its still living in the so called glory days of it.....and not realizing wat PAf faces today.....this is our problem..we think we are the best...while infact we are no where near it
> 
> oh and u wanna monitor PAF n IAF ....get a UHF tuner.....u will need a decoder for the IAF bands....PAF freq are not coded
> 
> and funny...u in an cadet college....and im at the AHQ....and u telling me u know more then me.... :| wow
> 
> yaar..the ops sqdns u tawkin about..unn ki anual reports go thru my dad...so I KNO...
> 
> 
> NESCOM is no where near BVR tech...BVR choro we cant copy the Sidewinder we have!!......missile banana is no big deal...guidence IS....guidence nai develp kar saktay....there are only 4 or 5 counties in the world do make the guidence systems for missiles....BVRM itself is a flyin radar...
> 
> abt our F-16s....they were doing 60 hrs a month for yrs until HighMark...IAF does 270 hrs a month on each airframe they have.....this just shows where the experieeence level of our pilots is...
> 
> other unit....they train hard....anti BVR is not simple....
> 
> u said ECM....aik ECM pod covers only a 1 or 2 bands....not the entire spectrum......this is the problem...we dontknow which bands to jam.....
> 
> plus th point...with Phalcons....IAF can see as far deep as peshawer wen flyin 50 kmz inside india.....this give them a stratigic advantage...they know where we r...we dont know where they are.....
> 
> IAF is like 20 yrs ahead of PAF in every department....oh plus 8 Singapore AF Vipers..ya Viper C block 30s are going to india fer exercies tihs month...
> 
> abt kargil.....if these number went public....do u kno army kaysa th public nay kya karna hay.....think outsid eof the box......my sourses are not just PAF officers....but also the army helo pilots who flew in kargil (who happen to be are my flight instructors) india lost less than half of the pak army casulties.....
> 
> oh did u know we left the CREAM of our SSG to die in kargil ?......yup we deserted them.....they died for nothing...and dont buillshit me on kashmir....cuz we started kargil....jsut like we started the 1965 war...those guys gave their lives for a generals dream...
> 
> 
> coming back to the point this thread is all abt...
> 
> F-16 Vs. the SU-30/ SU-30MKi......Viper will get its *** whooped everytime it comes up against the Flanker UNLESS THE VIPER IS FLYIN WITH AMRAAMs
> 
> argument closed!
> 
> *one more thing....
> 
> IM NTO AGAINST THE PAF....i luv the PAF
> 
> i analyze air forces......thats it
> 
> 
> our problem is we living in a dream that we are still better than the IAF...while infact we are laging behind in every single way....unless we realize this....there is NO WAY IN HELL we can ever come upto their standards *
> 
> yaar lissin
> 
> in 1965, pakistan started the war by crossing the LoC into kashmir....
> 
> indian objective...to get pakistan out of kashmir.....which they did brillently....
> 
> as for the F-86....it is the best of the non-supersonic fighter of the 50s and 60s....you always forget...PAF was technilogically more advanced back then as compared to the IAF...and our pilots were tarined by the USAF in the US.....
> 
> we take a few incidents and say pakistan won....true the IAF made mistakes and all.....but it won the over all war...
> 
> 
> sames the case in 1971....we lost east pakistan not because of india....but becase of west pakistan.....how is a long story...
> 
> 
> anyway
> 
> 
> you again talk about its the mna, not the machine...
> 
> 
> here is an example from cope india 2004...
> 
> F-15C V.s MiG-21, MiG-29, Su-30, and Mirage 2000
> 
> the US fighters lost 80% of hte engagements just becase they were flying
> 1 without AMRAAMs
> 2 without AESA radars
> 3 wihtout AWACS support
> 4 were out numbered 3 to 1
> 
> if the man behind the machine really mattered then the USAF wouldnt have been beaten that bad.....because US crews are the best in the world
> 
> yes these are the same F-15s that hold a 107-0 combat kill record....only difference....less the 30 of those 107 kill are in dogfights....all are BVR.....in other words...they won just because they technilogically overwhelm the enemy.....thats hows its been working after vietnam war
> 
> 
> u tell me....does the man behind the machine really matter in todays combat?....no he does not...
> 
> 
> chalo even take todays WVR fights.....with IRTS ( on MiGs) and HMS on westren fighters....with which u can fire a sidewinder X ( or archer) at you opponent who is at 90 degree from your current heading.....what can the opponent do.....those missiles can handle targets 100 degress off bore sight....
> 
> 
> today...its the machine....not the man




ASAD stopped posting after this.
I hope ASAD does not get any hate mails after this. Dont forget it is only his opinion although an airforce pilot.

anyways Thanks again for letting me post this.


----------



## p2prada

Off course, things are changing in PAF especially in relation to new F-16s


----------



## Myth_buster_1

LOL what laughing stocks you have posted... a indian trying to play a PAF pilot role.. but his indianess can be spotted like a cat with dogs balls..


----------



## p2prada

23march said:


> LOL what laughing stocks you have posted... a indian trying to play a PAF pilot role.. but his indianess can be spotted like a cat with dogs balls..



Hmm, do u know what a social network site is. 
Find out from your friends about Orkut. Then register and join. They will help u by inviting.

Send ASAD a "friends request" and view the photos he has posted in his PROFILE. 
A photo of him in the PAF uniform. The transport plane he flies. Other family photos. ETC ETC

U even have info regarding his cuisines, books, movies and other stuff he likes. In case u are still not satisfied, here is his profile

http://www.orkut.co.in/Profile.aspx?uid=11837908105342383788

Talk to him yourself.


If he wasnt a pilot or even pakistani then i wouldnt have broken my head over posting useless jargon.

I had made it clear to one of your mods that i dint join this community to waste time.

If u still dont believe, then u can remain stubborn. I cant help it.

Or according to ASADs words


> come on man...wake up...stop living under a rock :S


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Some of his comments in 2006 may have had some validity. Obviously he is entitled to his opinion, we have PAF and PA people on this forum and elsewhere who would disagree with many of the conclusions he has arrived at.

A lot of his comments are based around the lack of a BVRAAM in the PAF - and that deficiency is certainly an issue, however it has been addressed through the AAMRAAM acquisition, and non-American sources will also be utilized.

The JF-17 in 2006 was not the same JF-17 we have today, and where it is heading in terms of future upgrades, so his comments regarding the capabilities of the AC seem a bit outdated.

With regards to his points about the Chinese having done a lot of the work on the jet, that is true, I don't think very many informed posters will disagree with that contention.

It is our first venture into designing and constructing an AC, and a tremendous opportunity to learn. At the end of the day, it is about the deployable capability the program gives us, and we should hopefully see the fruits of that by the end of this year.


----------



## Muradk

Some people think that they know the air force because they are in one. what would a junior officer know. Not much. 
Saying IAF has PAF by the balls , sometimes we like to scratch but IAF does it for us.


----------



## p2prada

Muradk said:


> Some people think that they know the air force because they are in one. what would a junior officer know. Not much.



Maybe yes maybe no. He claims his dad is an ACAS(i dont know what the abbr means) and he is close to the chief consultant in the JF program(meaning his dad might be closer and not him, atleast professionally). 
If his dad and friend like to talk a little more than needed during tea, then he might know something any other junior officer doesnot. 

Anyways children of defence personal know more than they seem. The same applies in india too.


----------



## p2prada

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Some of his comments in 2006 may have had some validity. Obviously he is entitled to his opinion, we have PAF and PA people on this forum and elsewhere who would disagree with many of the conclusions he has arrived at.
> 
> A lot of his comments are based around the lack of a BVRAAM in the PAF - and that deficiency is certainly an issue, however it has been addressed through the AAMRAAM acquisition, and non-American sources will also be utilized.
> 
> The JF-17 in 2006 was not the same JF-17 we have today, and where it is heading in terms of future upgrades, so his comments regarding the capabilities of the AC seem a bit outdated.
> 
> With regards to his points about the Chinese having done a lot of the work on the jet, that is true, I don't think very many informed posters will disagree with that contention.
> 
> It is our first venture into designing and constructing an AC, and a tremendous opportunity to learn. At the end of the day, it is about the deployable capability the program gives us, and we should hopefully see the fruits of that by the end of this year.





Most of the comments centre around BVR cause the other guy SAAD was hell bent on believing PAF fighter pilots can bring down F-22s using pea shooters. Notice how Asad closed his point of view.


> today...its the machine....not the man [/QUOTE
> 
> Look at most of Asads replies
> 
> 
> 
> oo bhai...no more arguements from me... etc etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously Asad had a biased opponent. He had to keep repeating to prove the man and machine point.
> Had the other member been more flexible, we could have had better reading material, atleast more sophisticated.
> 
> Anyways, a young PAF pilot, has the opinion that PAF lacks in comparison to the IAF . For me, this is a first. Thats why I decided to share this.
> 
> What I have noticed is he is capable of stomaching criticism. The fact that he was a pilot dint help the other forum members.
Click to expand...


----------



## p2prada

Here are some snippets on what he had to contend with,



> come asad saab,ab aisi bhi baat nahi hai.BVR is not that much big threat.u know about combat commanders school?in CCS,our pilots are trained and made expert in anti-BVR tactics.BVR ki accuracy 100&#37; hai kia?nahi na.it needs a good pilot who can deliver BVR accurately.



Asad replied with the "4 BVRs for each fighter" and hard manouvering



> well asad,i have not even half of the knowledge u got,but just tell me one thing.in history,when was PAF better than IAF?in 65?or 71?on paper,according to data,Hunter is far better than F-86.but see M M ALAM.Su 7 and MiG 21 were downed by F-86.its the man behind the guns yaar.now i know wat u r gonna say.that was past.now BVR threat is too much for us.yar asad,i can`t do paper research,coz i hav no time.but i know 1 thing.although we r not as modern as IAF,but history will repeat itself.seems unrealistic to u?coz u rely on paper research and data of aircrafts.anyway,nice information u ha got.i really like it.but sorry,i can`t do research on net.i hav got no time.



PAF IAF ballz dialog



> asad tum yehan pay bhi shroo...tsk tsk.....koi haal nahi hai tumhara....lolz....... haha u guys better believe this guy he noes wat he is talking abt trust me......



Some guy poking his nose in



> well asad,i have not even half of the knowledge u got,but just tell me one thing.in history,when was PAF better than IAF?in 65?or 71?on paper,according to data,Hunter is far better than F-86.but see M M ALAM.Su 7 and MiG 21 were downed by F-86.its the man behind the guns yaar.now i know wat u r gonna say.that was past.now BVR threat is too much for us.yar asad,i can`t do paper research,coz i hav no time.but i know 1 thing.although we r not as modern as IAF,but history will repeat itself.seems unrealistic to u?coz u rely on paper research and data of aircrafts.anyway,nice information u ha got.i really like it.but sorry,i can`t do research on net.i hav got no time.



talks about the 65 war and ends his discussion




> u give indians Russian adder,alamo,archer etc. and also USAIM-120 and AIM 7 spparow.and just give us inferior SD-10 or MICA.and then see the results.and asad,u rely too much on data and statistics.waise i am impressed by ur knowledge.son o ACAS shud know all this.i cant do research coz i am under training at PAF Academy Risalpur and i hav no time.soo,end result.*u r son of ACAS,and i am only an Aviation Cadet.so no match of ur sources of info and mine,but i still believe. ITS THE MAN BEHIND THE GUNS.* if we can fight Mig-21 and Su-7 with sabre,we can compete AMRAAMs wid MICA.and by the way,u both plz add me in ur hotmail and yahoo ids.just wana talk to u.orkut is not very good medium of discussion.soo,waiting.



Asad stops replying after that.

So, the guy he was replyin to wanst that well informed. supposedly he is in training.


----------



## blain2

p2prada said:


> Maybe yes maybe no. He claims his dad is an ACAS(i dont know what the abbr means) and he is close to the chief consultant in the JF program(meaning his dad might be closer and not him, atleast professionally).
> If his dad and friend like to talk a little more than needed during tea, then he might know something any other junior officer doesnot.
> 
> Anyways children of defence personal know more than they seem. The same applies in india too.



There is not one PAF/PA/PN officer who would go on line and blabber BS that he has posted. Also note not a single thing he has mentioned is insider information. It has already been speculated upon and discussed to death on multiple Pakistani defence forums. So I am not impressed. The Big-I is the hallmark of anonymity, so lets keep the trust factor of the posts and posters on line in mind.

PAF has definitely had a deficiency in first-shot capability. You know and I know that is no longer the case. 


> those Su-30 ( NOT THE SU-30MKi which is the most advanced flanker in production today) and the MiG-29z kick *** in dogfights....that is if u get near them



I think not! USAF in CI05 had no problems handling the Mig-29s with their Vipers. I have already put up some comments of the USAF Pilots about their engagements with the MKI and others including the F-16.




> You use the net....start looking around....and get to know just exactly wat IAF and russian jets are capable of...



No doubt most of this purported "Assad's" info is gleaned from the Web as well.



> "did u kno wen PAF initated the project with china.....then called the FC-1?....any idea?.....it was 1983
> 
> did u know just how many times PAF has pulled out of this project?.....this is the 3rd time PAF joined this project....1st time we started the project...its was called the FC-1....2nd time we joined in...we called it super-7 and sayin it was a whole new jet concept......and now we are calling it the JF-17
> 
> originally the work on this jet was done by the US company Gruman ( which designed n made the F-14 Tomcat )....from then on it was ALL RUSSIAN N CHINESE....."



If this guy is a PAF insider then he deserves an *** kicking (no offense to Muradk and X-man sahiban here).

All this idiot of an insider had to do was to pick up the official PAF history book and read through the history of the Super-7 project. Had he known anything or done a bit more reading (most of his comments are based on his Internet reading), he would have figured that JF-17 and Super-7 had no real links aside from the fact that both projects involved PAF and China. Super-7 was a project based on a F-7 airguard airframe with US avionics and propulsion, whereas JF-17 was designed from scratch. Maybe we should all be impressed by his mention of Northrop Grumman's involvement in the project 

Then this genius goes on claiming:



> we tested the MiG-29z for PAF.....we didnt take them cuz we cudnt afford to maintain them...
> 
> btw...PAF pilots other than in russia doing evaluation fights....have never flown a MiG-29....
> 
> PAF was in NO WAY involved in any iraq war in anytime ..."



Nobody in the PAF uses a term like "Cuz"!! Its as American slang as it gets. This little kid is no one but an Internet PAF wanna-be. I have been around to know a thing or two about how our guys talk and communicate at least.

Also the point about not affording the Mig-29 maintenance is BS. Countries poorer and more ill-equipped than PAF have flown these aircraft. Secondly, PAF rejected the Mig-29 in favor of the Su-27. The PAF air staff suggested to the GoP that some Mig-29s could be purchased aside from the Su-27s, albeit with modifications. The topic of maintenance never came up because the Russians came back and said the sale was no go as the Russian government could not clear the sale to Pakistan. This was the end of the Su-27/Mig-29 debate.




> this is exactly wat dog fights have turned into...
> 
> 
> you enter a dogfight....
> 
> 1 both you and ur opponents plane will be damaged.....
> 
> 2 you burn up all ur fuel
> 
> 3 YOU ARE A VERY VERY VISIBLE TARGET FOR THE ENTIRE BATTLE FIELD
> 
> one wins...the other is shot down.....but the winner also has a damaged jet and no fuel...thus leaving him combat ineffective for the rest of the fight....and probably the rest of the war as well.....



What kind of an idiot is this guy? I would put money on it that this guy has no clue or linkages (abba, chacha, mama does not count) to the PAF. Who says that "both planes would be damaged"? How so? PAF pilots have been in many, many dogfights (including MuradK sahib here) and I can tell you that they have lived to fight another day with their aircraft being intact. 



> you burn up all ur fuel


No **** sherlock, but fighter pilots are not morons like this idiot. They constantly do fuel checks to see if they have enough to mix it up and then return to the base. Chances of close in combat are always there. Who is to say that you cannot run out of your BVR AAM load out and have to take on the adversary in close in combat?




> 3 YOU ARE A VERY VERY VISIBLE TARGET FOR THE ENTIRE BATTLE FIELD



Really? Another revelation from this idiot of a genius! Why is the assumption that a dogfight is only over a battlefield? What kind of a retard is this individual? Certainly not someone who has served. I can guarantee you that much.



> 4th...the russian jets are superior dogfights...even the americans admit to that....BUT that only comes into play if the russians get anywhere near the US fighter....
> 
> got the point.....



Hmm so Raytheon and the billions it has spent on a program such as AIM-9x (and to name a few more like Diehl's IRIS-T, Rafael Python 5 etc. etc.) are being developed and deployed in vain?

Let me leave it at this. Would love to chat with this Assad guy to find out what key position in the PAF he is in.  

I don't even want to give this guy the credit for trying to act like an Airforce officer because he does a really shitty job of it.


----------



## Tang0

I'm sorry, but "asad" types like a 12 year old from the United States.


----------



## p2prada

OK. Its ur opinion. he has his and i have mine. Lets leave it at that.


Lets discuss something more constructive cause i m still not sure about PAF BVR capability. What does PAF have.....
the AMRAAMs are yet to be delivered and the SD-10 is still undergoing tests.

i have only heard of H2 and H4. Nothing except the names.


Anyways what is ACAS? I m not aware of PAF administrative positions (and neither that of india)


----------



## blain2

ACAS is Assistant Chief of Air Staff equal to the rank of a Maj Gen in the Army. They server under the Deputy Chiefs of Air Staff (of which there are 6 within the PAF). So quite a few ACAS in the PAF.


----------



## Muradk

blain2 said:


> ACAS is Assistant Chief of Air Staff equal to the rank of a Maj Gen in the Army. They server under the Deputy Chiefs of Air Staff (of which there are 6 within the PAF). So quite a few ACAS in the PAF.



 I know the kids father's name he is the Project dir JF-17 . when I talk to him tomorrow lets see where his carrier takes him, I was a son of a general to in 71 war he was fighting on the ground and I in the air, and I asked him a question about one of his missions he slapped me infront of gen Musa who was standing right next to him. The same gen musa who put a medal on my chest 3 days before. 
Musa said Lodhi why did you slap him, and my father replied he should know his place and being an officer he should know better to ask me this question regardless he is my son or not. 
This kid doesn't understand his loose talk will get his father fired.
Farhat*&^*^&(()&*()


----------



## blain2

Muradk said:


> I know the kids father's name he is the Project dir JF-17 . when I talk to him tomorrow lets see where his carrier takes him, I was a son of a general to in 71 war he was fighting on the ground and I in the air, and I asked him a question about one of his missions he slapped me infront of gen Musa who was standing right next to him. The same gen musa who put a medal on my chest 3 days before.
> Musa said Lodhi why did you slap him, and my father replied he should know his place and being an officer he should know better to ask me this question regardless he is my son or not.
> This kid doesn't understand his loose talk will get his father fired.
> Farhat*&^*^&(()&*()



Murad Sahib,

This kid is not related to the CPD JF-17 in any way. He made this one claim "third....i live next door to Chief Project Director JF-17....so dun bullshit me on that...Chief Consultant for the JF is a very close frnd

I can guarantee that he is a military brat running off his mouth not knowing his mouth from his ***. Also this idiot made these remarks in 2005, at the time Shahid Latif sahib used to be CPD JF-17 so I doubt it if the current CPD JF-17 or his kids have anything to do with this. So I would just discount these idiotic comments for what they are..idiotic!


----------



## p2prada

I would call that discipline, yes sir.

Oh! and ASAD ALI mentioned his father is an ACAS. He is the JF proj directors neighbour.


----------



## p2prada

blain2 said:


> ACAS is Assistant Chief of Air Staff equal to the rank of a Maj Gen in the Army. They server under the Deputy Chiefs of Air Staff (of which there are 6 within the PAF). So quite a few ACAS in the PAF.



Thanks for the info.


----------



## shehbazi2001

p2prada said:


> OK. Its ur opinion. he has his and i have mine. Lets leave it at that.
> 
> 
> Lets discuss something more constructive cause i m still not sure about PAF BVR capability. What does PAF have.....
> the AMRAAMs are yet to be delivered and the SD-10 is still undergoing tests.
> 
> i have only heard of H2 and H4. Nothing except the names.
> 
> 
> Anyways what is ACAS? I m not aware of PAF administrative positions (and neither that of india)




From the paintings of Hussaini, its clear that PAF used Matra 530 series medium range missiles with Mirages. Now if you search this missile, Pakistan appears in the list of users. 


But its not clear which version exactly it was. The upgraded Mirages of ROSE-I should in principle carry some french BVR like Matra Super 530D at least. It will be amazing if Mirages were upgraded without the integration of any new weapons.


----------



## p2prada

I know the IR version was inducted. Its the other 2 i want to know about. Even googling gives forums and wikipedia.

Some mention PAF had only R-530 and R-550 and not the BVR versions.

Maybe a pilot in PAF can clear this.


----------



## melb4aust

p2prada said:


> Lets discuss something more constructive cause i m still not sure about PAF BVR capability. What does PAF have.....
> the AMRAAMs are yet to be delivered and the SD-10 is still undergoing tests.
> 
> i have only heard of H2 and H4. Nothing except the names.



H2 and H4 are both classified fitted on to mirage aircrafts, more to say they probably were inducted just to fill the gap until PAF induct JF-17 along with SD-10 or MICA and F-16's with AMRAAM. 
Here is an old news from one of your own media group:


> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force has inducted H-4 Beyond Visual Range missile which could strike a target from a distance of 120 km without visually citing it, evading enemy radars.
> 
> "It is a step towards adding the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles to our arsenal for defensive purposes and to address the strategic imbalance in the region," Pakistan daily Dawn quoted PAF officials as saying.
> 
> The officials claimed that the missile was developed by the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), which works in close collaboration with Pakistan Missile Organisation and the Air Weapons Complex.
> 
> "Three successful tests of H-4, with the latest conducted this year, produced satisfactory results leading to addition of arsenal in the fighter jets," they said, adding the missiles were modified version of the South African T-Darter BVR missiles. The PAF claims to have H-2 BVR missiles which could hit targets up to 60 km.
> 
> Reports of Pakistan seeking the BVR technology appeared in the South African media. In the face of protests from India, the South African government blamed "rogue" elements to collaborate with Pakistan to develop BVRs.
> 
> PAF officials said the H-4 missiles which was an infra-red device and comparable to that of the AA11, AA12 and Python 4 missiles of the IAF would be fitted on to the PAF's Mirage aircraft until the induction of new plane JF-17 Thunder, jointly developed by Pakistan and China, in 2006.
> 
> They said European and the US suppliers were currently not willing to share the technology with Pakistan but PAF was managing with whatever technology at its disposal.


Pak Air Force inducts BVR missiles-Pakistan-World-The Times of India

Wikepedia link: H-2 BVR-AAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

Not only this PAF F-7's also have some limited BVR capability as pointed out by some of the airforce members on this forum.

Regarding information about SD-10


> Following the unsuccessful PL-4, PL-10 and PL-11 semi-active radar-homing MRAAM programmes, 607 Institute was asked by the PLA in the mid-1990s to develop a new advanced all-weather, day/night active radar-homing MRAAM comparable to the U.S. AIM-120 AMRAAM and Russian R-77 (NATO codename: AA-12 Adder). The PL-12 development officially began in 1997 and took seven years to complete. During a fire test carried out on 16 August 2005, a total of eleven missiles were fired, all hitting their targets. The first multi-target fire test was also carried out successfully in late 2005.



Link: PL-12 (SD-10) Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile - SinoDefence.com

The missile is ready, can be inducted any time sooner. Remind you as of now pakistan already have around 12 JF-17's BVR capable aircrafts that are undergoing several tests. Plus, Thales RC-400 along with MICA has already been offered by france.

Past was past, we are looking into the future, which seems pretty bright, but sorry to say hard to digest by not some but quite a number of indians.


----------



## shehbazi2001

According to an article on Home - acig.org written by Tom Cooper, the rounds obtained by PAF with Mirages prior to 1971 war included the radar-guided R-530s. Now Tom Cooper is someone I want to trust but he may be wrong. However, Tom Cooper has written many excellent articles on military aviation and seems credible.

On the site pakdef, there is a list of kills of 1971, and we can see some kills of R-530 but they did not mention whether it was radar or IR version of R-530.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Mountain or Ridge Crossing at Low Level

While playing a simulation, I came across an interesting method to cross a ridge or mountain while maintaining the low-level profile.

If we stick close to the ground (remain low) on one side of the mountain/hill/ridge, the aircraft shall go to unacceptable high altitude on the other side of the hill.

If we want to remain low on the other side of the hill, we shall have to fly a bit high at start and expose ourselves......

So what can be a solution to remain at low-level all the time while crossing a hill????? (I know it already, its just for discussion)


----------



## Alex_2008

Hope our Pakistani brother will like it.
Ð¡°ÍèÉÁú´óÕ½ËÕ30-Ã×¶û¾üÊÂÊÓÆµ


----------



## araz

Alex
Thank you very much for this video. It has been posted before .
Regards
Araz


----------



## p2prada

> PAF officials said the H-4 missiles which was an infra-red device and comparable to that of the AA11, AA12 and Python 4 missiles of the IAF would be fitted on to the PAF's Mirage aircraft until the induction of new plane JF-17 Thunder, jointly developed by Pakistan and China, in 2006.



I dont understand and i m throughly confused.

According to what u posted the H-4 is a *BVR* with *IR seeker* which means it is actually a short range missile with 120km range. Also, it is comparable to AA-11(range=30km) and Python-4(range=15km) which are short range and also comaprable to the R-77(range=90km) which is BVR.


So, which is it.


----------



## p2prada

shehbazi2001 said:


> According to an article on Home - acig.org written by Tom Cooper, the rounds obtained by PAF with Mirages prior to 1971 war included the radar-guided R-530s. Now Tom Cooper is someone I want to trust but he may be wrong. However, Tom Cooper has written many excellent articles on military aviation and seems credible.
> 
> On the site pakdef, there is a list of kills of 1971, and we can see some kills of R-530 but they did not mention whether it was radar or IR version of R-530.



I have heard of kills using the sidewinder on the sabres and starfighters.



> they did not mention whether it was radar or IR version of R-530.



I guess it was the infrared version.
the radar version came out in 1979. Only the BVR version is radar guided, ie the super 530F and 530D. the only IR version is the R-530.


----------



## shehbazi2001

p2prada said:


> I have heard of kills using the sidewinder on the sabres and starfighters.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it was the infrared version.
> the radar version came out in 1979. Only the BVR version is radar guided, ie the super 530F and 530D. the only IR version is the R-530.






R-530 entered service with French Air Force in 1963 and it had two interchangeable seekers IR and semi-active radar guided.

It was the Super 530F which came out in 1979 with Super 530D coming in 1988.

R530 series has THREE distinct missiles....

First R530 in two versions IR and Radar guided

Second Super 530F (semi-active radar)

Third Super 530D (semi-active radar)

There were two seekers for the first R-530, one IR called AD3501 and other AD26 semi-active radar.

R.530/Super 530F/Super 530D - Archived 12/2003


----------



## CanadianPad

The four aircraft that came in are of what version?... block 52 ???


----------



## Muradk

p2prada said:


> I have heard of kills using the sidewinder on the sabres and starfighters.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it was the infrared version.
> the radar version came out in 1979. Only the BVR version is radar guided, ie the super 530F and 530D. the only IR version is the R-530.



I will answer couple of question over here instead looking for members and answer them.



*First *

In 1971 we did use Sidewinders but they were not IR , The Sidewinders we used at that time a 12 year old can make those, it had a total of 3 degree of angle which comes out to be 1.5gs, so if you fired it at the enemy and he did a hard turn or jinks the Missile would miss the target.
The sidewinders we had used to tract elector-Magnatic , how it work we will use a Graph, when a missile is fire the missile on the graph keeps going up if it misses the target the graph drops down and it exploded.

*Second *

IAF has BVR and PAF does not so is PAF in trouble ? NO

BVR Beyond Visual Range fire and forget, A fighter fires its missile from a 100 miles away for example. It is locked on to one target only. It fired on a F7PG now we have the tech to tell if the plane is being painted / targeted, Now he had a lot of option the simplest is Flares which are 3 times hotter than the engine he fires 10 flares the BVR suddenly has 11 targets and them we have Jamming pods as well by the time the missile is close to the fighter it will be so pissed off and confused it might just go back and hit its own operator and will miss its target but before it does than the warhead will explode because it will know it missed the target and wants to take out what ever it can. So there is a 50 50 chance it will hit. Yes if the pilot is unaware than yes he is history but he will still know have time to Eject because when the missile enters his range the plane if start cursing at the pilot to do something. 

Anti-aircraft ('Surface to Air' or SAM) missiles come in many different shapes and sizes. However, they are most likely to use small sized portable SAMs, known in the trade as 'Manpads' (MAn Portable Air Defense Systems).
These portable Manpads have a very small rocket in a launching tube. The user simply aims the rocket at the target and then pulls the launching trigger (they are very simple to operate). The rocket has a heat seeking nose that senses the heat from the target, which steers itself to the target. When the rocket physically hits the target, its explosive charge is detonated.
Because the missile flies directly into the hottest thing that it can see in the sky, it will typically lock onto engine exhausts - these are the hottest parts of most planes. For this reason, most missiles have to be fired from behind the plane, to make it easier for the missile to 'see' the exhaust coming out of the jet (or propeller) engines.
The US Stinger missile and the Soviet style SA-7 SAMs are the best known varieties of these Manpads. They typically have a range of 3 - 5 miles, and can attack targets up to about a maximum height of 10,000-12,000 ft.
It can take a soldier as few as five seconds to ready a Stinger, aim it, and fire it. One guy could fire five rockets in a single minute. And it typically takes only 15 seconds for the missile to reach its target - it all happens incredibly quickly, with very little time for any defensive measures.
The missiles don't have an infinite life. Their batteries eventually fail, but they are definitely reliable for at least five years, and potentially for ten years or longer.

*
How Likely is it that a Missile would Hit an Undefended Plane*

Assuming that the plane has no countermeasures (see below) then the probability of it being hit by a missile is anything up to about 90&#37; in a 'perfect' scenario.

If the missile is in poor condition, and if it is not correctly sighted and fired, or if the plane isn't in a good position relative to the missile launch, then of course this probability greatly reduces, and it seems that typical 'success' rates for missiles being fired in real world conditions against undefended planes are in the 50% range. In addition is another unknown - the number of times that would-be attackers don't launch missiles due to being unable to get a good firing solution.

*How the Israeli 757-300 Avoided Two Missiles*

This is an intriguing mystery. Officially, the Israeli plane was not carrying any countermeasures, but somehow two missiles both missed the plane. There are several possible explanations - maybe the missiles were old and faulty, and maybe they were incorrectly fired.
Some insiders guess this plane did indeed have countermeasures. It is generally believed that all El Al planes have missile countermeasures. This was a charter plane, not an El Al plane, but it may also have been the charter plane that the Israeli Prime Minister had been using just several weeks earlier - and you just absolutely know, for sure, that anything the Israeli Prime Minister flies on would have lots of protection.
There have also been some puzzling descriptions about noises coming from the rear of the plane while the missiles were approaching. That suggests, to me, the sound of flare dispensers firing out their flares. And so, although the Israelis officially deny this, it is likely the plane was equipped with counter measures, and the counter measures were probably the main factor enabling the plane to escape from the two missiles. Defenseless planes are unlikely to be as lucky.
*
What Damage Would Occur*

Strangely, a civilian airplane is much harder to destroy than a military jet. A heat seeking missile is probably going to hit and explode either right inside an engine or else very close to it.In the case of a military jet, its engines are tightly integrated inside the main fuselage of the plane, and an explosion in an engine will probably damage a lot more than the engine alone. But a regular passenger plane has engines suspended on pylons from the wings. An explosion inside one of those engines may cause less damage. Sure, the engine will probably be destroyed, but all jets can safely fly on one less engine.The unknown is whether the explosion will then cause pieces of metal to fly into the wing and possibly damage hydraulic lines, control surfaces, or fuel tanks, and what the implications of this additional damage might be.
Manpads don't have very large warheads. Typically they have perhaps 2-4 pounds of high explosive. This is enough to destroy an engine or to cause localised damage to part of a wing, but it may not be enough to cause the wing to fall off, and it may or may not cause critical damage that prevents the plane from limping back to an airport.Of the five Boeing 727s and 737s hit by Manpads, three were destroyed (and remember that the 727 is more vulnerable than the 737 due to having its engines close to the fuselage).





















*How to Defend Against SAMs*

There are *five main types of countermeasures* against an IR SAM attack. The *first *is evasive maneuvering of the plane to avoid the missile. However, that is close to impossible for a passenger plane in the few minutes immediately after take-off or before landing.The *second* is to release small flares - little matchbox sized objects that burn very intensely and hotly for a short while. In theory the missile sees the flare and ignores the airplane. A potential problem is that flares, if ejected at low altitude, may land on the ground (or on people or cars or buildings) while still burning, causing damage and potentially starting fires.The *third* is to use an IR 'jammer' - devices on the plane that send out special IR radiation that confuses the missile and causes it to fly off course. The *fourth* is a new capability of using a high power laser to burn out the seeker head on the missile so that it is 'blinded' and flies harmlessly off course. I don't know much about this, but it seems to me that a laser powerful enough to burn out the seeker head could burn out a lot of other things, too, that came in its path.A *fifth* possibility is to have military fighters escorting all passenger planes in and out of the highest risk areas around airports. Although this has been suggested, the costs of this would be exorbitant, air traffic control issues would be a nightmare, and it is not a practical solution. Worst of all, the mere presence of a fighter plane doesn't mean that it will be able to defend a civilian airliner against missile attack. What would it do? Sacrifice itself? Try and shoot the missile down?
Even the most sophisticated combination of defensive strategies are unlikely to provide 100% protection against the latest generation of SAMs. For example, the Russian SA-18 Igla missile has a dual band IR seeker to prevent it being confused by flares or IR jammers. There are thousands of SA-18s in military inventories around the world. But again we do have the capabilities to counter them , I can't and will not got into details.

*IMRAN* :* Beta your question how can a bird damage a plane*

Simple if you throw a rock at a standing cars windshild it might not break the glass but if the car is moving at 25 MPH and you throw the rock it will break the glass. There are different force working on the wind shield.
First the weight of your rock the speed of your rock the weight of the car and the speed of the car if you combine all of these factors and then think of a fighter flying at between 120mph to mach 2.5 what will happen to the plane if is object hits it will only 2 or 3 mile per hour. KABOOM


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

The BVR scenario I think has been quite abused lately. Just because you get a lock-on doesn't mean at all you have a kill. besides even the AIM-120C has a wide failure rate. 

PAF has been training in anti-BVR tactics anyway for twenty years. we know how to use BVR weapons very well thanks to some friendly countries. and as Blain mentioned before, the PAF, *only on paper*, does not have BVR.


----------



## IceCold

CanadianPad said:


> The four aircraft that came in are of what version?... block 52 ???



No not block 52. Block 52 is yet to come i think by 2009. These are the jets for which Pakistan payed in the 90s but did not get them due to sanctions. Now they have been realized and with MLU.


----------



## EagleEyes

Sir what are the height ceilings of the MANPADs Anza I, II, and III?


----------



## fatman17

CanadianPad said:


> The four aircraft that came in are of what version?... block 52 ???



Blk-15 OCU


----------



## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> Sir what are the height ceilings of the MANPADs Anza I, II, and III?



upto 2-2.5 miles.


----------



## shehbazi2001

shehbazi2001 said:


> Mountain or Ridge Crossing at Low Level
> 
> While playing a simulation, I came across an interesting method to cross a ridge or mountain while maintaining the low-level profile.
> 
> If we stick close to the ground (remain low) on one side of the mountain/hill/ridge, the aircraft shall go to unacceptable high altitude on the other side of the hill.
> 
> If we want to remain low on the other side of the hill, we shall have to fly a bit high at start and expose ourselves......
> 
> So what can be a solution to remain at low-level all the time while crossing a hill????? (I know it already, its just for discussion)




ok lets do it..........the question is clear.....Normally the choice is to fly between the mountains ie in valleys or ravines and avoid climbing over the mountains.....but if for some reason one has to cross a mountain while maintaining a low-level profile......then its not possible to do so while maintaining a straight level flight.......

The best and quickest way to go down from height is to roll the wings inverted and pull back on the stick instead of just pushing the stick forward......this is perhaps due to the fact that an aircraft can pull more positive gs as compared to negative gs. (typically +9g and -3g)

The same fact is used for crossing a ridge/hill.........stay low over the ground, go a bit high as u climb up the hill........once on the top......roll inverted and pull back on the stick to nose down and then roll straight and go back to low level. 

The trick was to become inverted at the top of the hill so that one can quickly go down.........with aircraft straight, trying to go down will be difficult.....and height shall increase dangerously.........


----------



## Muradk

Try doing that with a delta wing, with the same speed.


----------



## blain2

IceCold said:


> No not block 52. Block 52 is yet to come i think by 2009. These are the jets for which Pakistan payed in the 90s but did not get them due to sanctions. Now they have been realized and with MLU.



These are not MLU'd Vipers. For MLU, they will go back to the US. They are actually refurbished and have some other minor mods to the structure and systems but do not have the MLU capability as of yet.


----------



## Muradk

These are the same block we already have. There is nothing new about them they were used extensively in Red Flags.


----------



## Interceptor

Waste of money, F16 have been a pain in the rear end since the day Pakistan bought them, when sanctions come the jets get in all sorts of mechanical difficulties, with over priced parts and labour the F16 has been a hustle to maintain, we have very little knowledge on how to reproduce any of its parts, it would have been wiser to move towards French jets with complete ToT or Chinese Jets with complete ToT.

I think its 3 or 4 F16 that have been grounded due to mechanical failure they are now used as spares.


----------



## EagleEyes

Interceptor,

Mirage-2000 was to replace the F-16. Ask Zardari he should know about it.


----------



## muse

"Waste of money, F16 have been a pain in the rear end since the day Pakistan bought them"


Get used to it - anything Pakistan may purchase or get from US is always going to be a pain in the rear end - it's not because the equipment is not anything but excellent, rather it's because the kind of relationship US has and in the forseeable future, will continue to have with Pakistan - it's shocking to me how few see what the US has planned for Pakistan - all to be delivered b the so called "democratic" government and her so called politicians.

Pakistan's orientation, it's one true ally, is to be shown harm - isolating Pakistan from her true ally, so Pakistani politicians can collect crumbs from the table of the "civilized world" - How long will the guardians of Pakistan sit and watch this without acting??


----------



## ejaz007

Muse,
Its off topic. By the way are you advocating another military takeover. It only shows how stupid we are. Just came out of dictatorship and already fed up of democracy. A bad democracy is better than a good dictatorship. If you have brains try figuring out how much damage Pakistan has suffered because of one man shows.


----------



## Muradk

Interceptor said:


> Waste of money, F16 have been a pain in the rear end since the day Pakistan bought them, when sanctions come the jets get in all sorts of mechanical difficulties, with over priced parts and labour the F16 has been a hustle to maintain, we have very little knowledge on how to reproduce any of its parts, it would have been wiser to move towards French jets with complete ToT or Chinese Jets with complete ToT.
> 
> I think its 3 or 4 F16 that have been grounded due to mechanical failure they are now used as spares.



None of the F-16s are grounded, Yes it is true that when ever we are slapped by sanction we are in trouble. But at that time there are companies in Europe that buy the spares and give it to us bad thing about it is The front tire is for $5500/- in the black market it is for $10000/- Everything is double in price. Normally the spares come from turkey but mostly Israel.


----------



## muse

ejaz

Why so personal? Stupid? no brains? If you cannot defend your position with reasonable argument, please do not attempt it but getting personal will get you in trouble.

Muradk made the point that equipment maintenance costs are double to us - perhaps for "democrats" that is a good thing, but I don't think ordinary Pakistanis will agree that it's a good thing.


----------



## ejaz007

Muse,

Perhaps you did not get the point. Your post indicates you are in favour of dictatorship. If this is the fact then tell me what should I call you?

As far as defensing myself. I have nothing to defend. I firmly believe in democracy and it is the only way forward for Pakistan. These military generals some people praise are nothing but trouble for Pakistan. If you ever get some time preferably early in the morning do sit down and analyse what happened to Pakistan under Ayub Khan, Zia ul Haq and Musharaf.

Don't take it personal but I am straight forward and shall remain that way.


----------



## blain2

Ejaz sahib while straight forwardness is a virtue, comments like "If you have brains try figuring out" will only lower the quality of the thread as you will get responses befitting such comments.

Thanks and now back to the topic.


----------



## araz

Hello guys. come on Lets all be friends again. Now I have a question which has puzzled me. We have talked about the PAFs plans to acquire Mirage 2000-5 which were eventually scuppered. My question was the logic behind going for this platform. How would it have augmented our fleet and complimented F16s. or was it juist a case of no other platform available therefore----.
Thanks in advance for your response
Araz


----------



## Always Neutral

I heard China is developing a naval version of the J10. Is Pakistan a part of that plan ?

Regards


----------



## fatman17

araz said:


> Hello guys. come on Lets all be friends again. Now I have a question which has puzzled me. We have talked about the PAFs plans to acquire Mirage 2000-5 which were eventually scuppered. My question was the logic behind going for this platform. How would it have augmented our fleet and complimented F16s. *or was it juist a case of no other platform available therefore----.*Thanks in advance for your response
> Araz



if i can remember it was a case of no other platform available - i believe ACM was Anwar Shamim who called it a "super duper" aircraft. the price-tag was US3 bill for 40 a/c and the french wanted hard cash for them.at the same time however there were reports (un-confirmed) that PAF pilots has test flown the MiG-29.


----------



## Interceptor

The Mirage 2000-5 have been flown by our pilots, on a regular occasions, in middle east, by operating pilots there, they were quite comfortable for them and as I believe the platform out flanked our F16 anyways by a mile, the platform was outstanding.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Interceptor said:


> The Mirage 2000-5 have been flown by our pilots, on a regular occasions, in middle east, by operating pilots there, they were quite comfortable for them and as I believe the platform out flanked our F16 anyways by a mile, the platform was outstanding.



But thanks to your "L" Losers PPP leaders and 10&#37; who only cared about their 10% commission!! PAF would have been in a very advantage edge with M-2000-5 and most probably French BVR missile would have acquired ultimately equipping both front line fighters F-16s and M-2000-5 with BVR!


----------



## blain2

Interceptor said:


> The Mirage 2000-5 have been flown by our pilots, on a regular occasions, in middle east, by operating pilots there, they were quite comfortable for them and as I believe the platform out flanked our F16 anyways by a mile, the platform was outstanding.



Actually Mirage2000-5 was the first aircraft after the F-16s that PAF thought was capable enough to serve PAF as no additional F-16s were coming along. It was thought of as an alternate but a good one. However PAF have always thought that political strings aside, US hardware gives the biggest bang for the buck.
Also keep in mind that French are also susceptible to Western biases. They have put on hold things when they felt like it. So either the option should be "nothing western" or you deal with the Americans and the French. Nothing Western entails China which was not able to give the PAF the high-tech element that it desired.



> i believe ACM was Anwar Shamim who called it a "super duper" aircraft. the price-tag was US3 bill for 40 a/c and the french wanted hard cash for them.



The Mirage 2000 deal was in the time of ACM Farooq Feroze Khan. The French were willing to provide financing but wanted a hefty down payment and then the rest of the balance paid within a rather short amount of time. The GoP agreed to this and then backed out (or the Government interest fizzled out). PAF evaluated the Mirage 2000 three times and out of those, 2 times the performance of the Mirage 2000 was found inferior to the F-16s an on the third time (M2k-5), it was found to be comparable and thus the PAF interest.


----------



## Interceptor

23march said:


> But thanks to your "L" Losers PPP leaders and 10% who only cared about their 10% commission!! PAF would have been in a very advantage edge with M-2000-5 and most probably French BVR missile would have acquired ultimately equipping both front line fighters F-16s and M-2000-5 with BVR!



Benazir finalized the deal with France for complete ToT on Agosta 90 submarines, why wasn't there any commissions and kick backs then, its inconsistent, and is a malice lie that always be a means to sling mud at Bhutto's.


----------



## blain2

Interceptor said:


> Benazir finalized the deal with France for complete ToT on Agosta 90 submarines, why wasn't there any commissions and kick backs then, its inconsistent, and is a malice lie that always be a means to sling mud at Bhutto's.



There were kick-backs in this exact same deal...remember Adm Mansoor-ul-Haque? This happened during BB's time. He was BB's Naval Chief. Then came your buddy Nawaz Sharif and he booted the guy and had him arrested for corruption.


----------



## fatman17

blain2 said:


> There were kick-backs in this exact same deal...remember Adm Mansoor-ul-Haque? This happened during BB's time. He was BB's Naval Chief. Then came your buddy Nawaz Sharif and he booted the guy and had him arrested for corruption.



1. blain2 thx for correcting me

2. interceptor - when r u going to learn - BB and AZ was / is corrupt.


----------



## blain2

No worries sir!


----------



## Myth_buster_1

The AAM acquisition plan has been addressed by PAF like MICA, SD-10, AIM-120, R-darter and A-darter...But other then Harpoon and Ra'ad CM at least i am not aware of any PAF plan for new AGM like anti-radiation anti-runway and guided missiles.. 
what are the chance of these AGMs in PAF?..
AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon 
AGM-88E Advanced Anti Radiation Guided Missile
AGM Armiger Anti Radiation Missile with Intelligent Guidance & Extended Range
newer version of AGM-64..


----------



## BATMAN

Interceptor said:


> Benazir finalized the deal with France for complete ToT on Agosta 90 submarines, why wasn't there any commissions and kick backs then, its inconsistent, and is a malice lie that always be a means to sling mud at Bhutto's.


Every deal in BB's era was subjected to 10% commission.
My company boss was a foreigner and he use to pay % plus foreign tours to various intermidiaries of Zardari. My boss use to disclose such details informally in office.
He also told us that our company heads came to Pakistan and met the govt. and offered to make Pakistan regional hub for services but the answer they got 'how it will help us (Zardari)'. Our company split there investment to Dubai and India and caio caio to Pakistan!
Why Kotecna inspection was mandatory for all import and exports? In reality no inspection was ever made and every thing was mere paper work? all money went ot Zardari's pocket.
Zardari got rich in couple of years, much faster than bil gates! where as he use to live in jail!


----------



## fatman17

23march said:


> The AAM acquisition plan has been addressed by PAF like MICA, SD-10, AIM-120, R-darter and A-darter...But other then Harpoon and Ra'ad CM at least i am not aware of any PAF plan for new AGM like anti-radiation anti-runway and guided missiles..
> what are the chance of these AGMs in PAF?..
> AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon
> AGM-88E Advanced Anti Radiation Guided Missile
> AGM Armiger Anti Radiation Missile with Intelligent Guidance & Extended Range
> newer version of AGM-64..



there were reports of US releasing the JSOW but i guess they were in-correct. US could re-lease this AGM as they have done for Turkey in the recent past.. others u have mentioned i am not so sure.


----------



## EagleEyes

fatman17 said:


> there were reports of US releasing the JSOW but i guess they were in-correct. US could re-lease this AGM as they have done for Turkey in the recent past.. others u have mentioned i am not so sure.



No.. we have the JSOW. More on order i believe.

Check the old thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...an-develops-joint-standoff-weapon-system.html


----------



## blain2

WebMaster said:


> No.. we have the JSOW. More on order i believe.
> 
> Check the old thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...an-develops-joint-standoff-weapon-system.html



I concur. Pakistan did acquire the JSOW from US stocks right after we were granted MNNA status



> i am not aware of any PAF plan for new AGM like anti-radiation anti-runway and guided missiles..



If you go back a while to maybe 2004/5 timeframe and pick up the AFM, it had AVM Shahid Latif's interview. He said that for ARM capability, PAF has the option to change the seeker on the SD-10 to get this capability. I suspect this is the way PAF will go as PAF has not really gone for any outside purchase from the west for this crucial capability.

In terms of anti-runway munitions, AWC's licensed production of Matra/now MBDA BLU-107 Durandal (known as HAFR-2 in Pakistan) is an effective anti-runway capability. It is still a current technology that does not require replacement (even the USAF uses the same French hardware for this purpose with the F-16 as the only platform capable of this payload). 

Guided missiles can be in a plethora of categories. I think PAF has most of these covered. We are ok on the WVR but need 5th gen missiles so MBDA MICA and hopefully AIM-9x would fulfill this requirement, BVR has to become fully operational across the air force and SD-10 would ensure that along with AIM-120, standoff capability is afforded by various means such as LGBs, H2/H4, JSOW, Ra'ad and potentially even Babur (although an air platform has to be designated for its use).


----------



## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> No.. we have the JSOW. More on order i believe.
> 
> Check the old thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...an-develops-joint-standoff-weapon-system.html



this is good but i am confused - did PAF/PN acquire this capability indigenously or we were supplied the AGM-154 by the US. 
webby the link was not clear on this point.
blain2 - can u pls provide me the month of the AFM magazine where this info was published.
thx a lot.


----------



## blain2

fatman17 said:


> this is good but i am confused - did PAF/PN acquire this capability indigenously or we were supplied the AGM-154 by the US.
> webby the link was not clear on this point.
> blain2 - can u pls provide me the month of the AFM magazine where this info was published.
> thx a lot.



The AGM-154 capability was acquired based on the disclosure made during the 95th Corps Commanders conference:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ps-joint-standoff-weapon-system.html#post6530

I will dig up the AFM.


----------



## blain2

Ok found it:

The following is a quote of then AVM Shahid Latif (now Air Marshal), former CPD JF-17 stated for AFM July 2004:

"I cannot give details of our plans for acquiring anti-radiation missile, but we could acquire a BVR and just change the seeker head".


----------



## fatman17

blain2 said:


> Ok found it:
> 
> The following is a quote of then AVM Shahid Latif (now Air Marshal), former CPD JF-17 stated for AFM July 2004:
> 
> "I cannot give details of our plans for acquiring anti-radiation missile, but we could acquire a BVR and just change the seeker head".



ok thx - i remember it now - sold!


----------



## shehbazi2001

Alternatives for Runways

While I think PAF is doing well in protecting its aircraft, the issue of runway apparently remains unsolved (at least as I know).

Call it alternatives for runways or Plan-B,C,D etc for making aircraft take off and land in case the runways are either damaged by bombing or sabotage activity of special forces.

First the Arab Air forces and then Pakistan have seriously suffered because the runways were put out of use by enemy action. Unable to take off or land, the consequences were fatal.

I was just thinking whether we have a Plan-B or Plan-C or alternatives to make aircraft take off and land in case the runways are damaged.

Do we have the systems of make-shift or temporary runways???? A demonstration of such capabilities shall surely act as deterrent.
*
and is this scenario made part of PAF excercises?? after all we have suffered seriously due to runway destruction. *

In my opinion the runway repair teams should be given real exercises where a small concrete runway be destroyed by different munitions like Durandals, 2000 lb iron bombs and special penetration munitions like BLU-109s and then repair teams sent to see that how long it takes to repair them after the attack of a specific weapon.

The weapons to be used in runway attack exercise should be according to the real threat that we face.

An option which came into press was the usage of Motorway but even for this, the aircraft support infrastructure like re-arming and refueling should be there to use the motorway as runway. 

I would stress that we explore or invent new runways alternatives. Even mechanical runways can be tried. Army uses bridge vehicles that lay mechanical bridges within minutes for other vehicles to pass. By using almost the same technique, mechanical runways can be tested for feasibility. 

Satellite technology shall almost in real time verify it to the enemy whether the runway has again been repaired or not.........and we should not rely on concrete runways alone. 

Mechanical runway can even be folded again in case of enemy attack and pushed inside hardened shelters (may be, depends on design). Mechanical runways can even be coated with rubber for increased braking efficiency.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muradk

That is why they deployed 3 Sqd on different parts of the motor way to see if it will work or not and it did. 4 C130 were deployed with them and it took PAF one night to move them with full equipment. Impressive this way we keep 3 fighters on ADA at the bases let the attacker go for the base if those 3 can take off well and good if not the same SQD will take care of the attacker by attacking them from the motor way. 
If the move changes and the attackers go for the motor way the ADA will get them.
I cant say were but if you are driving on a motor way you will notice that the texture for a mile or so that is because it has 4 inches of concrete under it and the then the road.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## shehbazi2001

*Runway Intersections and Junctions*

During the Arab-Israeli 1967 war and even later the planning was done to hit the "Intersection point" of two runways. If the pilot delivers his bombs accurately, he puts out of action both the runways.

If runways are builts like runway 27 and runway 18, they are likely to cross each other if not far enough, making a point of intersection. This junction of both runways is bombed during war to disable both runways.

Here we need to see that how many of PAF base runways actually have these intersection points and if bombed then how much it shall reduce the operational capability of the base. This study can even be done on google earth.

For example, as seen from google, the runway 14 and 24 at sargodha are making intersections but
the runway layout of masroor seems to be good enough, with runways 27 and 22 not making intersections.

PAF should study these runway junctions and in my opinion should try to make one runway completely independent of the other, if not so already.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shehbazi2001

As I discussed runway numbers in the last mail, I wanted to give an explanation for those who might not know.

Runway 27 means that its at 270 degrees from the North. Similarly runway 14 means that its at 140 degrees from North. This is what I understand, someone may correct me if I am wrong somewhere.


----------



## Muradk

shehbazi2001 said:


> As I discussed runway numbers in the last mail, I wanted to give an explanation for those who might not know.
> 
> Runway 27 means that its at 270 degrees from the North. Similarly runway 14 means that its at 140 degrees from North. This is what I understand, someone may correct me if I am wrong somewhere.



no you are righ I thing chaklala is L24 AND R29 I THINK.


----------



## x_man

shehbazi2001 said:


> As I discussed runway numbers in the last mail, I wanted to give an explanation for those who might not know.
> 
> Runway 27 means that its at 270 degrees from the North. Similarly runway 14 means that its at 140 degrees from North. This is what I understand, someone may correct me if I am wrong somewhere.



Shehbazi you are right, just to add few bits, when we say runway 27 , it means that once lined up or coming to land on the runway 27, your aircraft heading will be 270 

Although very rare but has happened, runway directions can be confusing, especially if you are going to an airfield for the first time.many times pilots came for the landing from the opposite direction and ended up head-on to the aircraft that were taking-off.

Sir Murad, Chaklala is 12/30..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## x_man

shehbazi2001 said:


> *Runway Intersections and Junctions*
> 
> During the Arab-Israeli 1967 war and even later the planning was done to hit the "Intersection point" of two runways. If the pilot delivers his bombs accurately, he puts out of action both the runways.
> 
> If runways are builts like runway 27 and runway 18, they are likely to cross each other if not far enough, making a point of intersection. This junction of both runways is bombed during war to disable both runways.
> 
> Here we need to see that how many of PAF base runways actually have these intersection points and if bombed then how much it shall reduce the operational capability of the base. This study can even be done on google earth.
> 
> For example, as seen from google, the runway 14 and 24 at sargodha are making intersections but
> the runway layout of masroor seems to be good enough, with runways 27 and 22 not making intersections.
> 
> PAF should study these runway junctions and in my opinion should try to make one runway completely independent of the other, if not so already.



For any airfield strike mission, the runway intersections are definitely the most important and lucrativeand a Direct Hit (DH) on an intersection can fetch you good marks in mock exercises.As seen by below Google Earth pic , Sargodha has a main runway ( 14/32) , a parallel runway and a secondary runway ( 06/24)..and even if two surfaces are damaged , operations can still be carried out.



There are also many other airfields just around Sargodha.just try to find few in the below pic.look for the plus or cross signs.you should atleast be able to pick 3 in this pic



The other airfield with good number of surfaces available is Masroor, Karachi





Considering todays scenario, airfields are one of the most heavily defended VPs.they have outer and inner protection rings and sometimes outer, middle and inner rings..to penetrate safely thru the net of defences , drop your load exactly where you want to and then have a safe exit from defences and enemys CAPs etc , is not a walk in the park..Also consider that with these cutting edge Rapid runway repair (RRR) equipment , any damage can be repaired in few hours..I remember attending few demonstrations by these RRR guys , and the way they filled a Durandal hit patch was amazing and makes you think as a pilot that What the hell , why even bother so much with hitting a runway if these guys RRR guys are there..

In Indo / Pak scenario, any airfield strike will comprise good number of aircrafts and as I mentioned earlier that airfields are very heavily defended , so there is a good chance that you are bound to have some attrition until and unless enemy is tipsy or sleeping..So in the end of a airfield strike, if I have lost my 3 aircrafts and three pilots and the runway that they hit is up and running again ( courtesy of RRR guys) after few hours, it will make me think if all that effort and attrition was worth it ? 

Sometimes its do and die situation and you might need to neutralise an airfield for few hours in order to achieve some bigger objective elsewhere and you even dont mind few losses , I would say go ahead with the strike .BUT just striking an airfield for the heck of itNot a very good idea

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Muradk

x_man said:


> Shehbazi you are right, just to add few bits, when we say runway 27 , it means that once lined up or coming to land on the runway 27, your aircraft heading will be 270 &#8230;
> 
> Although very rare but has happened, runway directions can be confusing, especially if you are going to an airfield for the first time&#8230;.many times pilots came for the landing from the opposite direction and ended up head-on to the aircraft that were taking-off&#8230;.
> 
> Sir Murad, Chaklala is 12/30..



 Thanks X


----------



## Muradk

In 71 we got hammered by the IAF in Peshawar and Karmra, but we always found a way to take off and hats of to the Army Engg they work 24/7 to keep us in air.

1981 Minawali our base taxi ( piper S ) had a bird hit that the co pilot had to have surgery to get the dead dove's parts and glass out of his left shoulder. The proprs were damaded so I told them, just to land on the main road and they did the on comming traffic were not much a problem in the month of july its to hot so only trucks on the road and buses and the locals knew what a plane looks like. It landed perfectly and not only that the locals put the pilots in a car and rushed them to the base they some how picked the plane and put it on a on a open truck by the locals, by the time our queen fari got out of the base the police called and said every thing is ok the pilots are on there way and the plane is on a local truck on its ways Every one who helped were given a money to help PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Neo

Excuse my ignorance but I wanted to ask a simple question. Can all civil airports be used by airforce in case of emergency?

How long will it take to install temporary logistic infrastructure?

A list of major airports in Pakistan:

*Main Airports*
Airport ICAO code Runway length Runway width Height Latitude (DD) Longitude (DD) 

Allama iqbal intl OPLA 2744 m 44 m 217 m 31.520 74.400 
Allama iqbal intl OPLA 3360 m 44 m 217 m 31.520 74.400 
Bahawalpur OPBW 1524 m 22 m 115 m 29.350 71.710 
Bandari OP 2779 m 30 m 769 m 27.850 65.160 
Bannu OPBN 1830 m 29 m 403 m 32.970 70.520 
Basal OP 1993 m 45 m 396 m 33.530 72.260 
Belab OP 1493 m 14 m 114 m 30.340 70.560 
Chaklala OPRN 3287 m 45 m 507 m 33.620 73.100 
Chandhar OP 2743 m 45 m 188 m 32.080 73.790 
Chashma OP 1066 m 15 m 196 m 32.420 71.460 
Chitral OPCH 1749 m 30 m 1493 m 35.890 71.800 
Dera ghazi khan OPDG 1981 m 30 m 148 m 29.960 70.490 
Dera ismail khan OPDI 1511 m 22 m 181 m 31.910 70.900 
Dhingar OP 2468 m 45 m 1589 m 29.920 66.750 
Faisalabad intl OPFA 2814 m 45 m 180 m 31.370 73.000 
Gilgit OPGT 1645 m 30 m 1457 m 35.920 74.330 
Gurha salim OP 922 m 10 m 243 m 32.880 73.610 
Gwadar OPGD 1584 m 28 m 29 m 25.230 62.330 
Gwadar OPGD 1524 m 27 m 29 m 25.230 62.330 
Jinnah intl OPKC 3406 m 45 m 30 m 24.910 67.160 
Jinnah intl OPKC 3200 m 45 m 30 m 24.910 67.160 
Jiwani OPJI 1625 m 45 m 56 m 25.070 61.810 
Juzzak OP 1581 m 30 m 872 m 29.040 61.650 
Kandhkot OP 1177 m 24 m 76 m 28.270 69.280 
Kashmor OP 1185 m 21 m 79 m 28.470 69.600 
Khairpur OP 914 m 22 m 91 m 28.040 69.670 
Khanpur OP 926 m 45 m 86 m 28.640 70.630 
Kharan OPKN 905 m 28 m 152 m 28.590 65.420 
Kharan east OP 1550 m 29 m 152 m 28.630 65.470 
Khewra OP 1084 m 12 m 233 m 32.630 73.020 
Khorewah OP 1199 m 19 m 4 m 24.790 68.560 
Khuzdar OPKH 1828 m 30 m 1209 m 27.790 66.640 
Kot addu OP 1037 m 24 m 131 m 30.500 70.970 
Mad juma OP 2400 m 60 m 78 m 28.360 70.600 
Mandi bahauddin OP 884 m 24 m 228 m 32.600 73.510 
Mangla OPMA 1524 m 30 m 274 m 33.050 73.640 
Mari indus east OP 1400 m 24 m 310 m 32.920 71.690 
Masroor OPMR 2628 m 39 m 10 m 24.890 66.940 
Masroor OPMR 2749 m 60 m 10 m 24.890 66.940 
Mianwali OPMI 3097 m 47 m 210 m 32.560 71.570 
Mianwali OPMI 3154 m 29 m 210 m 32.560 71.570 
Minhas OP 3147 m 49 m 304 m 33.870 72.400 
Mir baz OP 826 m 30 m 716 m 31.190 70.180 
Miram shah OPMN 1402 m 45 m 935 m 33.010 70.060 
Miram shah OPMN 2222 m 45 m 935 m 33.010 70.060 
Moenjodaro OPMJ 1984 m 30 m 46 m 27.340 68.140 
Multan intl OPMT 2757 m 29 m 122 m 30.200 71.420 
Murid OP 2724 m 29 m 540 m 32.910 72.770 
Muzaffarabad OPMF 914 m 22 m 830 m 34.340 73.510 
Nawabshah OPNH 2744 m 45 m 28 m 26.220 68.390 
Nok kundi OP 1134 m 27 m 678 m 28.820 62.730 
Nushki OPNK 872 m 24 m 975 m 29.540 66.020 
Okara OPOK 3351 m 24 m 152 m 30.740 73.360 
Ormara OPOR 1528 m 22 m 18 m 25.270 64.590 
Ouzkani OP 862 m 27 m 710 m 30.250 70.240 
Panjgur OPPG 1524 m 22 m 1002 m 26.950 64.130 
Pano aqil southeast OP 1833 m 45 m 52 m 27.810 69.170 
Parachinar OPPC 1202 m 22 m 1764 m 33.900 70.070 
Pasni OPPI 2733 m 46 m 10 m 25.280 63.330 
Peshawar OPPS 2743 m 45 m 369 m 33.990 71.510 
Qasim OPQS 1000 m 45 m 492 m 33.560 73.030 
Qasim OPQS 2040 m 45 m 492 m 33.560 73.030 
Quetta OPQT 3648 m 30 m 1605 m 30.250 66.940 
Quetta OPQT 3657 m 45 m 1605 m 30.250 66.940 
Rafiqui OPRQ 3048 m 48 m 149 m 30.760 72.280 
Rafiqui OPRQ 2932 m 29 m 149 m 30.760 72.280 
Rahwali OP 707 m 25 m 227 m 32.240 74.130 
Rahwali OP 1906 m 45 m 227 m 32.240 74.130 
Rajanpur OP 3048 m 45 m 121 m 29.260 70.190 
Rawalakot OPRT 914 m 22 m 1676 m 33.850 73.800 
Risalpur OPRS 1780 m 49 m 320 m 34.080 71.970 
Risalpur OPRS 2769 m 49 m 320 m 34.080 71.970 
Robray OP 1507 m 48 m 560 m 26.250 63.130 
Robray OP 1360 m 39 m 560 m 26.250 63.130 
Saidu sharif OPSS 1829 m 46 m 970 m 34.810 72.350 
Sargodha OPSR 3125 m 49 m 187 m 32.050 72.670 
Sargodha OPSR 2425 m 35 m 187 m 32.050 72.670 
Shahbaz ab OPJA 3060 m 45 m 54 m 28.280 68.450 
Shahbaz ab OPJA 2952 m 24 m 54 m 28.280 68.450 
Shaikh zayed OPRK 3048 m 45 m 82 m 28.390 70.280 
Sharea faisal OPSF 2450 m 45 m 8 m 24.870 67.120 
Skardu OPSD 3640 m 30 m 2229 m 35.330 75.540 
Skardu OPSD 1981 m 30 m 2229 m 35.330 75.540 
Sui OPSU 1516 m 45 m 232 m 28.650 69.180 
Sui OPSU 1828 m 30 m 232 m 28.650 69.180 
Sukkur OPSK 2743 m 29 m 59 m 27.720 68.790 
Talhar OPTH 2733 m 22 m 15 m 24.840 68.840 
Tarbela dam OPTA 1706 m 30 m 339 m 33.990 72.610 
Thal OP 1403 m 45 m 807 m 33.390 70.590 
Thar OP 1473 m 25 m 50 m 27.200 69.150 
Turbat intl OPTU 1817 m 30 m 151 m 25.990 63.030 
Velhari OP 3135 m 45 m 131 m 30.090 72.150 
Walton OPLH 1338 m 45 m 213 m 31.490 74.350 
Wana OPWN 964 m 44 m 1386 m 32.310 69.570 
Wateji OP 1821 m 45 m 44 m 24.870 67.410 
Zhob OPZB 1770 m 30 m 1417 m 31.360 69.460 

PAKISTAN Main Airports Geography Population Map City and cities coordinates location

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Keysersoze

Interesting.....In Finland you can see the occasional aircraft shelters on the side of long motorways. Maybe the PAF should look into having a few emergency areas like that.


----------



## x_man

Neo said:


> Excuse my ignorance but I wanted to ask a simple question. Can all civil airports be used by airforce in case of emergency?
> 
> How long will it take to install temporary logistic infrastructure?
> 
> [/url]



By emergency if you mean any in-flight problem, then definitely any airfield can be used for immediate landing may it be civil or military

In case of outbreak of any hostilities also, any civil airfield can be used for the deployment and operationsBut there are many pre-requisites for fighters operations, few of the major ones are highlighted below....

1..The length of the runway should be minimum 9000 feetany shorter runway will not be good enough ..

2. Availability of correct grade of fuelpreferably JP-4 or JP-5 .many civil airports do have ample amount of jet fuels, but many dont haveSo any civil airfield which doesnt house the correct specification fuel, is probably useless to operate from

3. Aircraft stopping barriers at both the runway ends...

4. Civilian world generally uses VHF for radio transmissions, whereas military guys use UHFso any airport whos ATC doesnt have UHF transmission/reception facilities, is again considered useless for fighter ops

5. Availability of aircraft shelterscant park them on open Tarmacs.

Besides these there are many other small considerations that are related to aircraft maintenance etc..

The good thing is that majority of civil airports on our eastern border fulfil the fighter ops requirements and squadrons have been regularly deploying there

Squadron deplyement can be done in less than a day if all other pre-requisites are met...quick deployment is one of the major attribute of the airpower..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Neo

Thank you for detalied reply!


----------



## x_man

Keysersoze said:


> Interesting.....In Finland you can see the occasional aircraft shelters on the side of long motorways. Maybe the PAF should look into having a few emergency areas like that.









PAF have also used motorway for landing by Mirages and F-7 There are quite a few long straight stretches close to Sheikupura ( near Lahore) and the width of motorway is also perfect.There are few areas on the motorway that are marked for fighter operations incase of any hostilities breakout..


----------



## Myth_buster_1

sir x-man.. Is gripen specifically designed for quick and easy operation from highways...


----------



## Neo

Mig's and Mirages used National Highway near Karachi in 1971, my uncle (friend of my late father) Farooq Abbasi was honored for engineering it.


----------



## x_man

23march said:


> sir x-man.. Is gripen specifically designed for quick and easy operation from highways...



Sweeds are famous for off-runway operations...probably their every major road can be used for fighter ops...check these out..


----------



## Muradk

In 71 war we did such amazing things you guys wount belive , during a dog fight me and one of my course mate God Blass his soul. we ended up doing sissors with a Gnat and the saber went and hit the high tenstion cable, it got stuck 90deg to the nose so the gnat got away because the saber was carring the cable and it was 150 ft long, Now the bigges problem was how to land the plane and in such emegencies commercial airports wount be a good thing because the cable will rip apart eveything which comes to contact as the speed reduced to 150k the cable started to fall down the saber was toucht enought to carry it but he had to put a lot of prssure on his left rudder to keep it staright, finally we decided to land at Kamra as the plane reduced its speed the cable went down and it was a danger that if he lands the cable would hit the groud first that the saber would get into trouble. well he touched down and the cable dragging with it, Everything was going well the cable got close to the plane and went into thr tires well I dont have to tell you what happend next 1 saber destroyed 2 sabers and one fuel taker. Now if he would have landed at a commercial Airport just imagine what could hapen.

2nd 
in the 60 s and 70s the flight surgeons had to do 15 hous a week in flying, I took a young Flt lt and as I took of it was his first flight he strated to screem and started to hit the canopy to let his out and I was at 7 thousand feet, with his conditon I had no other choice but to pull gs so I can put him to sleep. I did that and it worked for about 10 sec and them I declared emegency and told Karachi International I still rmember telling ATC ,"Karachi ATC this is T-33 comming in for emegency landing cannot go around " Copy PAF you have first priority please land " just because of the doctor we had to tell 4 airlines to go around and land. What if they were low on fuel them what ?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Neo

Last three SAAB designs, the JA-35 Draken, JA-37 Viggen and now JAS-39 Gripen all have STOL capability and can operate from a runway as short as 700m!

*Draken*





*Viggen*


*Gripen*


----------



## IceCold

Draken had rather unusual shape of its time. It was rather very unique looking more like a space ship sort of a thing. The latter are all typical.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Discovery channel made a documentary on swedish aircrafts called "Wings of Sweden" and I searched it several times but could not watch this documentary. It would be great if someone can find it on net.

Regarding Gripen's use from roads, one another factor is that it can be turned around or maintained by just a small team of 5-6 technicians. Thats important for roadside operations because elaborate infrastructure is not available there and fighters heavy on maintenance requirements are somewhat difficult to operate from the roads.


----------



## Keysersoze

shehbazi2001 said:


> Discovery channel made a documentary on swedish aircrafts called "Wings of Sweden" and I searched it several times but could not watch this documentary. It would be great if someone can find it on net.
> 
> Regarding Gripen's use from roads, one another factor is that it can be turned around or maintained by just a small team of 5-6 technicians. Thats important for roadside operations because elaborate infrastructure is not available there and fighters heavy on maintenance requirements are somewhat difficult to operate from the roads.



Well its on the military channel at 11 am on the 29th I couldn't find any others apart from the Russian and American ones


----------



## abdul salam

i am no shown this picture


----------



## AIR-CAV

well through out the heat of operations aviation is one arm of pakistan army seems working beyond its limitations supporting operations carried by own troops to take the culprits to the task............


GIVE YOUR VIEWS!


----------



## blain2

There was a pretty good article by one of the fellows at Pakdef in AFM about the role of PAA in the recent operations. It was pretty good reading.


----------



## JK!

Yeah I particularly liked the SSG extraction story featuring Mi17s and Cobra gunships.


----------



## abdul salam

*sir i have one question related with ID Card Member ship>
that it is possiable to make a membership card in which i show that im the Real Membership of Defence.pk and if i want to visit your PIA and Airforce Area the the security of your departement allow me to visit your PIA and Defence area b.coz this my wishes to visit Airfore departement but i have no any permission and no any Card so this coz i conform you to tell me this solution. how can i see your departement. please tell us all detaies about this knowledge.
im kindly thankful to you. *


----------



## fatman17

blain2 said:


> There was a pretty good article by one of the fellows at Pakdef in AFM about the role of PAA in the recent operations. It was pretty good reading.



I covered that news for our forum!


----------



## fatman17

AIR-CAV said:


> well through out the heat of operations aviation is one arm of pakistan army seems working beyond its limitations supporting operations carried by own troops to take the culprits to the task............
> 
> 
> GIVE YOUR VIEWS!



in my view we dont have enough assets like gunship-helicopters, assault helicopters, transport / lift helicopters to make the PAA really effective in these operations.
u r correct, the PAA is extended beyond its limits and is doing a great job supporting ground ops.


----------



## muse

Whereas i would argue that while that is so, what Pakistan armed forces need is capacity building, that is more institutions of technical scientific education and a system to rotate greater numbers of personnel through these institutions.

just wanted to add, that we may also look at training, we need to upgrade the training, particularly to bring the training up past US marines training, for example and substantially increase our SSG personnel and give it a capablity that Pakistan must have.Especially since there are "guests" in the neigborhood.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## JK!

Its just a shame that the South African Rooivalk project is being closed as that would have been an ideal system for the Pakistan army aviation.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> that is more institutions of technical scientific education and a system to rotate greater numbers of personnel through these institutions.



I would definitely agree with that, though Blain can probably explain better on that count...


----------



## fatman17

^^^it is always good to learn new techniques and ideas, but the current level of training being imparted in our armed forces is robust and up to the required standards of our threat perceptions.


----------



## Energon

fatman17 said:


> in my view we dont have enough assets like gunship-helicopters, assault helicopters, transport / lift helicopters to make the PAA really effective in these operations.
> u r correct, the PAA is extended beyond its limits and is doing a great job supporting ground ops.


I vaguely remember articles being posted on why its difficult for the PA to base their attack helos near the front lines (security and logistical purposes primarily). Which probably means that the pilots have to fly a larger distance and hence come up with lesser fuel when they reach their intended area of operation; which needless to say puts them at a disadvantage. This in turn got me thinking, why aren't the PA and FC looking into procuring turboprop counterinsurgency specific platforms like the Super Tucano? These things seem to be highly sophisticated, and sport the ability to provide CAS as well as strategic interdiction capabilities using laser guided munitions and such. They also have great survivability in the context of counterinsurgency operations and relatively lower maintenance costs (especially when compared to jet fighters). I'm assuming they can cover greater distances than the helicopters and fly high altitude missions if/when needed. Also, the PAF probably has a lot of pilots capable of flying an aircraft of this sort (don't know if it requires radically different training such as that associated with helicopter pilots) which means the integration can be a lot faster.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

Energon said:


> I vaguely remember articles being posted on why its difficult for the PA to base their attack helos near the front lines (security and logistical purposes primarily). Which probably means that the pilots have to fly a larger distance and hence come up with lesser fuel when they reach their intended area of operation; which needless to say puts them at a disadvantage. This in turn got me thinking, why aren't the PA and FC looking into procuring turboprop counterinsurgency specific platforms like the Super Tucano? These things seem to be highly sophisticated, and sport the ability to provide CAS as well as strategic interdiction capabilities using laser guided munitions and such. They also have great survivability in the context of counterinsurgency operations and relatively lower maintenance costs (especially when compared to jet fighters). I'm assuming they can cover greater distances than the helicopters and fly high altitude missions if/when needed. Also, the PAF probably has a lot of pilots capable of flying an aircraft of this sort (don't know if it requires radically different training such as that associated with helicopter pilots) which means the integration can be a lot faster.



1. PAF's doctrine does not include COIN. CAS yes with FGA's. it maybe a good idea to now start thinking about COIN ops which is basically the purview of the PAA. inter-service jostling for priority / funds will be a restriction if PA/PAF go for this much needed expansion. therefore it is very important that we somehow obtain the CI funds for equipment and training being offered by the US without compromising our interests.


----------



## Owais

I have a question here. I have searched the details of PAF F16 squadrons(F-16 Inventory) on F16.net but details shows that there are only 9-10 jets in each squad. where are remaining other 10 jets??


----------



## fatman17

Owais said:


> I have a question here. I have searched the details of PAF F16 squadrons(F-16 Inventory) on F16.net but details shows that there are only 9-10 jets in each squad. where are remaining other 10 jets??



due to sanctions, there were no attrition replacements and pre-911 PAF had consolidated to 2 sqdns (9 and 11)
now replacements are being received (14 so far) and therefore sqdn replinishment is taking shape. we r up to 2.8 sqdn strength based on 16 a/c per sqdn.(9,11 and OCU)


----------



## Muradk

fatman17 said:


> due to sanctions, there were no attrition replacements and pre-911 PAF had consolidated to 2 sqdns (9 and 11)
> now replacements are being received (14 so far) and therefore sqdn replinishment is taking shape. we r up to 2.8 sqdn strength based on 16 a/c per sqdn.(9,11 and OCU)



Yar I thing there should be only 2 Sdq 9 and 11, 11 being OCU. Plus remember just because we have more F-16 doesn't mean that all of them will be flying most of the times a ratio is maintained and the rest dont fly till they want them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

Muradk said:


> Yar I thing there should be only 2 Sdq 9 and 11, 11 being OCU. Plus remember just because we have more F-16 doesn't mean that all of them will be flying *most of the times a ratio is maintained and the rest dont fly till they want them*.



Thanks for clarifying sir, but wont those a/c be assigned a sqdn no?


----------



## Owais

some sources are saying that Pakistan is getting Lockheed Martin's Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod where as some are saying that we will be getting AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods? what are the purpose of acquiring two types of equipments? is there is any use of DRFM instead of having AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods?


----------



## CanadianPad

What is the thing above the gun and why is it covered??? the one with the red cover on it??


http://www.defence.pk/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1569


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Owais said:


> some sources are saying that Pakistan is getting Lockheed Martin's Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod where as some are saying that we will be getting AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods? what are the purpose of acquiring two types of equipments? is there is any use of DRFM instead of having AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods?



ALQ-211 V9 is basically a advance defensive Electronic Warfare suite.. which will provide situational awareness like laser, FR,IR and with a great punch of countermeasure capability.. Sniper pod for F-16 is like adding a scope to your gun

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## x_man

CanadianPad said:


> What is the thing above the gun and why is it covered??? the one with the red cover on it??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are called Auxiliary air intake doors and you can find one on each side&#8230;Besides main intake which is in nose ( you cant miss it ) , Mig-21/F-7P/PG has few other small air intakes in the fuselage that open/close at certain speeds or throttle settings&#8230;In the above pic ( click it to enlarge), you can see that Aux door is open&#8230;&#8230;.When aircraft is on ground , the front and Aux intakes are protected with intake covers so any bird or FOD doesn&#8217;t go into the intake&#8230;that&#8217;s what those red covers are for&#8230;..they are removed during the pre-flight inspection by the ground &#8211;crew&#8230;
> 
> In the above pic, if you watch closely, try spotting another air intake&#8230;any success? Well it&#8217;s on the nose where aircrafts number is written&#8230;just see ahead of number 8&#8230;there is a square thing.... You will rarely find a pic where these intakes are open&#8230;.They are hinged outwards from front and open against springs to allow air in the duct to spill overboard whenever supply exceeds demand. These normally operate at Mach numbers greater then 1.3 &#8230;
> 
> Front intakes are easy to design than the side or belly intakes&#8230;.But then front intakes do have many technical and operational limitation too&#8230;Remember that jet engines are big suckers&#8230;Once you make the pilot sit in the path between intake and engine , you are choking the poor engine&#8230;so it needs aux intakes elsewhere in the fuselage to support it appetite&#8230;
> 
> The biggest operational limit for the front intakes is that you cannot house a powerful radar or electronic / avionics equipment &#8230;.Other than Mig-21, F-7 and SU-22, I cant recall any other fighter that is still operational and has a front intake. Or is there any ??
> 
> *P.S* ..Any Mod or Webby, can you please enlarge the F-7s pic, I tried making it bigger but all my science failed...

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Muradk

If you see a mirage you can see them very clearly. In an f-86 they are right next to the tail on both sides.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## shehbazi2001

In 1965 war, PAF's No.4 Squadron with SA-16 Albatross maritime aircrafts detected and tracked the movements of Indian naval vessels especially the carrier INS Vikrant. 

They were fitted with search radars and had very long endurance.

From http://orbat.com/site/history/open1/pakistan_pafsquadrons.pdf

"On 19 August 68 the SA-16s were placed in storage, bringing to a close their commendable ten year contribution to the task of search and rescue. No 4 Squadron continued operating its helicopters till they too were approaching the end of their useful life. In March 69 the unit was number-plated."


I was wondering which aircrafts Pakistan AF or Navy used for maritime reconnaissance in 1971?? Was it not possible to put SA-16s back into service??

This question is important since we lost some naval ships in 1971 due to Indian Navy missile boats. It means that maritime recce was either abscent or not fully capable in 1971.


----------



## Munir

Muradk said:


> If you see a mirage you can see them very clearly. In an f-86 they are right next to the tail on both sides.



All plane have this feature. It is about having low speed but needing lots of thrust. So you need not only lots of fuel but also lots of air to generate that. If you fly fast you get enough air to make the mixture but if you are starting to generate speed you need that extra intake. Somme planse have moveable intakes (like F15) some planes have extra intakes around the intake (like the Harrier) but there are some planes you need to think very deep... (the f16 has them on the topsides of the intake)

Then you go beyond that understanding if you are at high speed and you do not want tooooo much airflow then you end up with complex or intelligent conus or DSI kind of apparatus... Certainly if you get supersonic airspeed then you need to slow down your inflowspeed... You just want to keep you engine flow subsonic otherwise you end pretty much dead...

a... Love to have these kind of insights with Murad and X-man. when I walked around at AMARC it was one of these topics you keep thinking about how the engineers solved it. Love engineers. Love pilots.


----------



## Muradk

Munir said:


> All plane have this feature. It is about having low speed but needing lots of thrust. So you need not only lots of fuel but also lots of air to generate that. If you fly fast you get enough air to make the mixture but if you are starting to generate speed you need that extra intake. Somme planse have moveable intakes (like F15) some planes have extra intakes around the intake (like the Harrier) but there are some planes you need to think very deep... (the f16 has them on the topsides of the intake)
> 
> Then you go beyond that understanding if you are at high speed and you do not want tooooo much airflow then you end up with complex or intelligent conus or DSI kind of apparatus... Certainly if you get supersonic airspeed then you need to slow down your inflowspeed... You just want to keep you engine flow subsonic otherwise you end pretty much dead...
> 
> a... Love to have these kind of insights with Murad and X-man. when I walked around at AMARC it was one of these topics you keep thinking about how the engineers solved it. Love engineers. Love pilots.



In my opnion Engg should get more credit but the way RPAF was set up a GDP is a GDP and Engg is a gracia. in 65 , 71 we should have given all the engg a medal for keeping the fleet working 24/7.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Imran Khan

i looks on google earth our air base parking were line up planes that dark black why its oil or any other thing?


----------



## Muradk

imran khan said:


> i looks on google earth our air base parking were line up planes that dark black why its oil or any other thing?



Yes specially Mirage when it stops it leaks fuel from both front and the back JP4 that is why when the plane stops the Airman puts oil trays underneath them. 
I wish you guys could see a SR-71 Blackbird preflight condition it leaks oil from every part of its body, the faster it goes the leaks stop after Mach 1 no oil leaks, It took 19 hours of 
prep time to fly it for 4 hours only.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## fatman17

shehbazi2001 said:


> In 1965 war, PAF's No.4 Squadron with SA-16 Albatross maritime aircrafts detected and tracked the movements of Indian naval vessels especially the carrier INS Vikrant.
> 
> They were fitted with search radars and had very long endurance.
> 
> From http://orbat.com/site/history/open1/pakistan_pafsquadrons.pdf
> 
> "On 19 August 68 the SA-16s were placed in storage, bringing to a close their commendable ten year contribution to the task of search and rescue. No 4 Squadron continued operating its helicopters till they too were approaching the end of their useful life. In March 69 the unit was number-plated."
> 
> 
> I was wondering which aircrafts Pakistan AF or Navy used for maritime reconnaissance in 1971?? Was it not possible to put SA-16s back into service??
> 
> This question is important since we lost some naval ships in 1971 due to Indian Navy missile boats. It means that maritime recce was either abscent or not fully capable in 1971.



shabaz ji this is a very good question - i will check with my naval friends meanwhile IMO there was no maritime recce available to both PN and IN and if you remember the soviets loaned a maritime recce a/c to india during the war.


----------



## niaz

I remember the Naval Commander incharge of Anti Air Defence of Keamari telling me that some Fokkers were drafted for maritime recce work during 1971. It has been a very long time and my memory is foggy.


----------



## Sam Dhanraj

niaz said:


> I remember the Naval Commander incharge of Anti Air Defence of Keamari telling me that some Fokkers were drafted for maritime recce work during 1971. It has been a very long time and my memory is foggy.



Niaz Sahib, Seems You are correct. Here is some more info on air craft and Pilots on Indian Navy Website citing Pakistani Books after war



> *PAKISTAN MARITIME RECONNAISSANCE​*
> 
> *"Excerpt from Pakistan's Crisis in Leadership" *
> 
> 
> "The Navy, in the absence of any shore based radar and maritime reconnaissance aircraft, was virtually blind. Therefore the services of a civilian radar were requisitioned and Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) willingly provided a Fokker Friendship flight to operate reconnaissance flights. The PIA plane had its own limitations for the purpose it was being used. Its radar was a weather radar and it had only 7 degree decline which could not see downwards. The civil pilots, however, did an extremely good job of work without any previous training in this particular field.
> 
> 
> "At about the same time on December 3, when Naval HQ was issuing orders and instructions, the Fokker flying along the Kathiawar coast - PIA air patrols had been started on November 30 - reported the sighting of India's Western Fleet consisting of a cruiser, six destroyers and an oil tanker off the Rann of Kutch coast. It was operating around its forward base at Okha."
> 
> *"Excerpts from the Story of Pakistan Navy"*
> 
> 
> "The PN reconnaissance aircraft sighted a formation of eight enemy ships when the war had just started, but the naval observer, being unaware of war having started, made his contact report hours later after landing.
> 
> 
> "After the first missile attack, Commodore Hanif took over as DCNS(O) on 5 December and contacted the Air Priority Board which provided a mixed bag of a dozen aircraft including the Governor of Punjab's Cessna, a plant protection aircraft, an old DC3 Dakota, some Aero Club Austers and two armed Cessnas. We also obtained two Fokkers and two Twin Otters fitted with radar. All these aircraft were lined-up at Karachi civil airport where a "Fleet Air Arm" was set up immediately. The aircraft were controlled by naval officers positioned at the airport along with a PAF liaison officer provided by MHQ.
> 
> 
> "The aircraft were manned by civilian volunteer crews from PIA and the Flying Club and maintained by PIA and CAA at Karachi in such an efficient manner that there was no problem in operating 3 or 4 light aircraft at a time during day in their respective sectors on an arc 200 miles from Karachi covering the entire area from Jamnagar to the Makran coast. At night, two radar-fitted aircraft at a time covered the same arc. Thus, from the afternoon of 5 December, it was difficult for an Osa to approach within 200 miles of Karachi undetected
> 
> http://indiannavy.nic.in/t2t2e/Trans2Trimph/chapters/12_1971&#37;20anlysis of pak account1.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## fatman17

Sam Dhanraj said:


> Niaz Sahib, Seems You are correct. Here is some more info on air craft and Pilots on Indian Navy Website citing Pakistani Books after war



sad reading indeed!


----------



## shehbazi2001

Following the posts, it means that SA-16 Albatross Maritime Patrol Aircrafts were put out of use or say decommissioned without replacement just two years before the 1971 war and the results were disastrous.

PIA aircrafts or Flying Club aircrafts did a good effort but these aircrafts are not optimised for searching over sea and tracking the vessels. Dedicated radars, long endurance, dedicated communication equipment etc are required in addition to professional training in this particular area.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Munir

When you have no tools you still make the best out of the toys. These guys are example how far one can get with the right spirit. Love the info.


----------



## BATMAN

niaz said:


> I remember the Naval Commander incharge of Anti Air Defence of Keamari telling me that some Fokkers were drafted for maritime recce work during 1971. It has been a very long time and my memory is foggy.


Being once passenger of Fokker in good old times, i can very well imagine how challenging it could be.
I remember once travelling to Bahawalpur, it was bit strong wind from behind and Fokker had to turn around in opposite direction of wind for landing and the wind from behind took it far away in the process.

I also remember once travelling to Islamabad we caught in sudden storm near Islamabad, It was some night. Fokker was jumping up and down perhaps hundreds of feet and I could hear the lashes of blitz on the fuselage. I still wonder how pilot was able to play with the panel.
It was like riding a mad bull, the pilot who forced his way into storm and landed safely in Islamabad could do anything with his Fokker.


----------



## superbikez

Which country pak or india have strong Airforce *(in Defence advance fighters and missile system etc ?) *


----------



## Kasrkin

Pssh, dude Pakistan obviously, by a long shot...

Okay seriously now, in terms of figures the Indians are ahead of us but then again they were ahead of us in 65 too. Pakistan will be getting advanced fighters, Indians will be getting them too. As usual its down to the skill and organization of the pilots and the ground crew.
India plans things differently than we do. Indias purpose is power-projection and ours is minimal deterrence, so both are satisfied with their forces.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TOPGUN

superbikez said:


> Which country pak or india have strong Airforce *(in Defence advance fighters and missile system etc ?) *



I agree with kasrkin India has a much bigger airforce with alot more funds then we do to spend ! second there tatics are much diff from ours they seem to think qty over qulity we think the other way well really we have no choice cuz of funds etc but i know for sure with some knowledge that i have plus having some PAF backround in my family PAF is one of the best in the world in regards to our Pilots ,traning , tatics and combat experience and inshallah we will be getting our jf-17's , j-10's and f-16's hoping on the f-16's anyhow followed by air defense , air refueling tankers ,awacs and uav's thats my thought


----------



## shehbazi2001

shehbazi2001 said:


> Alignement of Guns
> 
> Like we know about WW-2 fighter that their guns on both wings had a focus point ahead of the aircraft. The focus length was left to pilots. Some pilots preferred that all guns should aim at a point at close range and other wanted a more distant focus point. For close focus points, the bullets from all 4 or 6 guns would target the same area/point in space at say 500 feet ahead from own fighter, which had a devastating effect.
> 
> I want to know that is it the same practice with jets like F-7s,Mirages and A-5s? and is it still left to the choice of pilots? ..........of course the fighters with a single gun are out of this discussion.




I am revisiting this post just to clarify this point as I came across it on net recently. Its properly called "CONVERGENCE". As I came to know, this was more important for those propeller and jet aircrafts whose guns were mounted on the wings. With nose-mounted guns, the importance of convergence has reduced. And with more and more fighters using a single gun, this phenomenon seems to disappear now.














In the first picture, gun convergence is set to 600 yards and in some others its set to 300 yards and its effect on target shooting is also shown.


----------



## Blackpearl

Gun boresighting...

My guess is that present aircarft guns are boresighted to engage targets at a range of 1000 yards.
Talking about F-16, fitted with Gatling 6 barrel rotating gun on left side. The gun still require to be boresighted
to converge pilot line of sight through gunsight reticle/piper on HUD, and bullets travel path, at some distance. 

However. i have a question here that since bullets travel in a straight path, how F-16 engages bandit through gun while turning a tight turn. There must be some restriction on firing the gun uptil a certain rate of turn, otherwise bulletsw will not find their impact point.
There is a posasibilty that F-16 fire control computer itself calculates calculates the impact point by projeting CCIP (continously Calculated Impact Point) over the HUD. The input parametrs may be the speed of aircarft, altitude, and rate of turn. 
The same may be the case with Mirage and F-7s......


----------



## shehbazi2001

Blackwater said:


> Gun boresighting...
> 
> My guess is that present aircarft guns are boresighted to engage targets at a range of 1000 yards.
> Talking about F-16, fitted with Gatling 6 barrel rotating gun on left side. The gun still require to be boresighted
> to converge pilot line of sight through gunsight reticle/piper on HUD, and bullets travel path, at some distance.
> 
> However. i have a question here that since bullets travel in a straight path, how F-16 engages bandit through gun while turning a tight turn. There must be some restriction on firing the gun uptil a certain rate of turn, otherwise bulletsw will not find their impact point.
> There is a posasibilty that F-16 fire control computer itself calculates calculates the impact point by projeting CCIP (continously Calculated Impact Point) over the HUD. The input parametrs may be the speed of aircarft, altitude, and rate of turn.
> The same may be the case with Mirage and F-7s......





Bullets dont travel straight......under the action of gravity, bullets lose height and it depends on the muzzle velocity..........higher the muzzle velocity, farther the bullet goes straight...........

For shooting a bandit during turn, a technique called "Deflection Shooting" is used...........bullets dont go straight but they still hit the target...depends on gunsight and pilot skill......

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## p2prada

shehbazi2001 said:


> *Bullets dont travel straight......under the action of gravity*, bullets lose height and it depends on the muzzle velocity..........higher the muzzle velocity, farther the bullet goes straight...........
> 
> For shooting a bandit during turn, a technique called "Deflection Shooting" is used...........bullets dont go straight but they still hit the target...depends on gunsight and pilot skill......




Wind plays an important part too. 


I also think the guns are capable of moving a few degrees on either side to increase its LOS. I m not sure though.

Anyways TVC helps in such situations.


----------



## p2prada

Question directed at Shehbazi.

Do u have any information on solid state devices used for microwave communications?
Any information will do. I can build up on that. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Luftwaffe

sorry to p opup in the middle of discussion...

Question u can call it stupid one but...

Why did PAF not design JF-17 equal in size to F-16??could have been more payload more room for upgrades etc.


----------



## Imran Khan

sorry mi don't under stand your qes but you can check size of both here. jf-17 is little big then f-16

*jf-17nGeneral characteristics*
Crew: 1 (2 for twin-seater) 
Length: 14.94 m[40] (49 feet) 
Wingspan: 9.45 m[40] (31 ft) 
Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in) 
Wing area: 24.4 m&#178;[40] (263 ft&#178 
Empty weight: 6,441 kg[40] (14,200 lb) 
Loaded weight: 9,100 kg[41] (20,062 lb) 
Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg[41] (28,000 lb) 
Powerplant: 1&#215; Russian RD-93 turbofan 
Dry thrust: 50 kN (11,240 lbf) 
Thrust with afterburner: 81.4 kN[41] (18,300 lbf) 
Fuel Capacity: 5,130 lb [42] 
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.1 
Combat radius: 1,352 km (890 nmi, 1,025 mi) 
Ferry range: 3,500 km[43] (2,100 mi) 
Service ceiling 17,000+ m[44] (55,000 ft) 
Thrust/weight: 0.95 
G-limit: +8.5 g[21] 



*f-16General characteristics*
Crew: 1 
Length: 49 ft 5 in (14.8 m) 
Wingspan: 32 ft 8 in (9.8 m) 
Height: 16 ft (4.8 m) 
Wing area: 300 ft&#178; (27.87 m&#178 
Airfoil: NACA 64A204 root and tip 
Empty weight: 18,900 lb (8,670 kg) 
Loaded weight: 26,500 lb (12,000 kg) 
Max takeoff weight: 42,300 lb (19,200 kg) 
Powerplant: 1&#215; Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 afterburning turbofan 
Dry thrust: 14,590 lbf (64.9 kN) 
Thrust with afterburner: 23,770 lbf (105.7 kN) 
Alternate powerplant: 1&#215; General Electric F110-GE-100 afterburning turbofan 
Dry thrust: 17,155 lbf (76.3 kN) 
Thrust with afterburner: 28,600 lbf (128.9 kN) 
Performance

Maximum speed:

At sea level: Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,470 km/h) 
At altitude: Mach 2+ (1,500 mph, 2,414 km/h) 
Combat radius: 340 NM (295 mi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with six 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs 
Ferry range: 2,280 NM (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks 
Service ceiling 50,000+ ft (15,200+ m) 
Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s) 
Wing loading: 88.3 lb/ft&#178; (431 kg/m&#178 
Thrust/weight: For F100 engine: 0.898, For F110: 1.095


----------



## niaz

imran khan said:


> sorry mi don't under stand your qes but you can check size of both here. jf-17 is little big then f-16
> 
> *jf-17nGeneral characteristics*
> Crew: 1 (2 for twin-seater)
> Length: 14.94 m[40] (49 feet)
> Wingspan: 9.45 m[40] (31 ft)
> Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
> Wing area: 24.4 m²[40] (263 ft²)
> Empty weight: 6,441 kg[40] (14,200 lb)
> Loaded weight: 9,100 kg[41] (20,062 lb)
> Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg[41] (28,000 lb)
> Powerplant: 1× Russian RD-93 turbofan
> Dry thrust: 50 kN (11,240 lbf)
> Thrust with afterburner: 81.4 kN[41] (18,300 lbf)
> Fuel Capacity: 5,130 lb [42]
> Performance
> 
> Maximum speed: Mach 2.1
> Combat radius: 1,352 km (890 nmi, 1,025 mi)
> Ferry range: 3,500 km[43] (2,100 mi)
> Service ceiling 17,000+ m[44] (55,000 ft)
> Thrust/weight: 0.95
> G-limit: +8.5 g[21]
> 
> 
> 
> *f-16General characteristics*
> Crew: 1
> Length: 49 ft 5 in (14.8 m)
> Wingspan: 32 ft 8 in (9.8 m)
> Height: 16 ft (4.8 m)
> Wing area: 300 ft² (27.87 m²)
> Airfoil: NACA 64A204 root and tip
> Empty weight: 18,900 lb (8,670 kg)
> Loaded weight: 26,500 lb (12,000 kg)
> Max takeoff weight: 42,300 lb (19,200 kg)
> Powerplant: 1× Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 afterburning turbofan
> Dry thrust: 14,590 lbf (64.9 kN)
> Thrust with afterburner: 23,770 lbf (105.7 kN)
> Alternate powerplant: 1× General Electric F110-GE-100 afterburning turbofan
> Dry thrust: 17,155 lbf (76.3 kN)
> Thrust with afterburner: 28,600 lbf (128.9 kN)
> Performance
> 
> Maximum speed:
> 
> At sea level: Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,470 km/h)
> At altitude: Mach 2+ (1,500 mph, 2,414 km/h)
> Combat radius: 340 NM (295 mi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with six 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs
> Ferry range: 2,280 NM (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks
> Service ceiling 50,000+ ft (15,200+ m)
> Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s)
> Wing loading: 88.3 lb/ft² (431 kg/m²)
> Thrust/weight: For F100 engine: 0.898, For F110: 1.095




I was under the impression that Max Speed of J-17 was Mach 1.6. Have they managed to increase it to Mach 2.1?

Was expecting that with increased thrust, max speed may improve to Mach 1.8. To improve it to Mach 2.1 would normally require major improvement in the air intake design. May be Sir Murad can clarify.


----------



## p2prada

niaz said:


> I was under the impression that Max Speed of J-17 was Mach 1.6. Have they managed to increase it to Mach 2.1?
> 
> Was expecting that with increased thrust, max speed may improve to Mach 1.8. To improve it to Mach 2.1 would normally require major improvement in the air intake design. May be Sir Murad can clarify.



It actually depends. Different conditions i mean.
For example, Mach 1 at SEA LEVEL is 1225km/hr
At the same time, Mach 1 at altitudes above 10000metres is 1060km/hr.

So, Mach 2.1 at high altitude (= 2226km/hr) using sea level calculations is 2572.6 km/hr. 


But, at sea level calculations mach 1.8 would be ~mach 2.1

Mach is calculated by using impact pressure, static pressure and specific heat ratios. This makes it dependent on atmospheric conditions at times of measurements of speed.

Here, they have just manipulated the Mach speed to suit their own interests or just plain ignorance. Dont take such "specifications" figures seriously. Anything above Mach 1.6 is good.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## p2prada

No need of re-designing air-intakes. Just mess with math, a lot cheaper.


----------



## superbikez

Kindly Comparison between PAK F16z and India Su30 MKiz ?


----------



## Imran Khan

General characteristics 0f f-16Crew: 1 +2


Length: 49 ft 5 in (14.8 m) 
Wingspan: 32 ft 8 in (9.8 m) 
Height: 16 ft (4.8 m) 
Wing area: 300 ft&#178; (27.87 m&#178 
Airfoil: NACA 64A204 root and tip 
Empty weight: 18,900 lb (8,670 kg) 
Loaded weight: 26,500 lb (12,000 kg) 
Max takeoff weight: 42,300 lb (19,200 kg) 
Powerplant: 1&#215; Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 afterburning turbofan 
Dry thrust: 14,590 lbf (64.9 kN) 
Thrust with afterburner: 23,770 lbf (105.7 kN) 
Alternate powerplant: 1&#215; General Electric F110-GE-100 afterburning turbofan 
Dry thrust: 17,155 lbf (76.3 kN) 
Thrust with afterburner: 28,600 lbf (128.9 kN) 
Performance

Maximum speed:

At sea level: Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,470 km/h) 
At altitude: Mach 2+ (1,500 mph, 2,414 km/h) 
Combat radius: 340 NM (295 mi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with six 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs 
Ferry range: 2,280 NM (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks 
Service ceiling 50,000+ ft (15,200+ m) 
Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s) 
Wing loading: 88.3 lb/ft&#178; (431 kg/m&#178 
Thrust/weight: For F100 engine: 0.898, For F110: 1.095 

M61A1 on display.Armament


Guns: 1&#215; 20 mm (0.787 in) M61 Vulcan gatling gun, 515 rounds 
Hardpoints: 2&#215; wing-tip Air-to-air missile launch rails, 6&#215; under-wing & 3&#215; under-fuselage pylon stations holding up to 20,450 lb (9,276 kg) of payload 
Rockets:

4&#215; LAU-61/LAU-68 rocket pods (each with 19&#215; /7&#215; Hydra 70 mm rockets, respectively) or 
4&#215; LAU-5003 rocket pods (each with 19&#215; CRV7 70 mm rockets) or 
4&#215; LAU-10 rocket pods (each with 4&#215; Zuni 127 mm rockets) 
Missiles:

Air-to-air missiles: 
2&#215; AIM-7 Sparrow or 
6&#215; AIM-9 Sidewinder or 
6&#215; IRIS-T or 
6&#215; AIM-120 AMRAAM or 
6&#215; Python-4 
Air-to-ground missiles: 
6&#215; AGM-45 Shrike or 
6&#215; AGM-65 Maverick or 
4&#215; AGM-88 HARM 
Anti-ship missiles: 
2&#215; AGM-84 Harpoon or 
4&#215; AGM-119 Penguin 
Bombs:

2&#215; CBU-87 Combined Effects Munition 
2&#215; CBU-89 Gator mine 
2&#215; CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon 
Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser capable 
4&#215; GBU-10 Paveway II 
6&#215; GBU-12 Paveway II 
6&#215; Paveway-series laser-guided bombs 
4&#215; JDAM 
4&#215; Mark 84 general-purpose bombs 
8&#215; Mark 83 GP bombs 
12&#215; Mark 82 GP bombs 
B61 nuclear bomb 
Others:

SUU-42A/A Flares/Infrared decoys dispenser pod and chaff pod or 
AN/ALQ-131 & AN/ALQ-184 ECM pods or 
LANTIRN, Lockheed Martin Sniper XR & LITENING targeting pods or 
up to 3&#215; 300/330/370 US gallon Sargent Fletcher drop tanks for ferry flight or extended range/loitering time. 
Avionics


APG-68 radar [/COLOR]


Main article: List of F-16 Fighting Falcon operators

Operators of F-16 Bahrain 
Belgium 
Chile 
Denmark 
Egypt 
Greece 
Jordan 
Indonesia 
Israel 
Italy 
Morocco 
Netherlands 
Norway 
Oman 
Pakistan 
Poland 
Portugal 
Singapore 
Republic of China (Taiwan) 
South Korea 
Thailand 
Turkey 
United Arab Emirates 
United States 
Venezuela

a PAF F-16 at LEJAS AFB


----------



## Imran Khan

*Specifications (Sukhoi Su-30MKI)*General characteristics

Crew: 2 
Length: 22.10 m (72 ft 51 in) 
Wingspan: 14.70 m (48 ft 23 in) 
Height: 6.38 m (22 ft 89 in) 
Wing area: 62.04 m&#178; (667.8 ft&#178 
Empty weight: 17,700 kg (39,300 lb) 
Loaded weight: 34,500 kg (76,100 lb) 
Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg (85,600 lb) 
Powerplant: 2&#215; Lyulka AL-31FP turbofans with thrust vectoring, 131 kN (29,400 lbf) each 
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.35 (2,500km/h) 
Range: 8000km (5,330miles) (Refueled) () 
Service ceiling 20,000 m (59,000 ft) 
Rate of climb: >304 m/s (70,000 ft/min) 
Wing loading: 556 kg/m&#178; (113 lb/ft&#178 
Thrust/weight: 0.77(at loaded weight) 

Armament: Air to Air Missiles:

6 &#215; R-27R/AA-10A/Astra[25] semi-active radar homing medium range AAM of range 80 km. 
6 &#215; R-27T (AA-10B) infrared homing seeker, medium range AAM, 70 km 
2 &#215; R-27P (AA-10C) passive radar seeker, long range AAM 
10 &#215; R-77 (AA-12) active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km 
6 &#215; R-73 (AA-11) short range AAM, 30 km 
Air to Surface Missiles:

2 &#215; Kh-59ME TV guided standoff Missile, 115 km 
2 &#215; Kh-59MK Laser guided standoff Missile, 130 km 
4 &#215; Kh-35Anti-Ship Missile, 130 km 
3 &#215; PJ-10 Bramhos Supersonic Cruise Missile,300 km 
6 &#215; Kh-31P/A anti-radar missile, 70 km 
6 &#215; Kh-29T/L laser guided missile, 30 km 
4 &#215; S-8 rocket pods (80 unguided rockets) 
4 &#215; S-13 rocket pods (20 unguided rockets) 
Bombs:

6 &#215; KAB-500L laser guided bombs 
3 &#215; KAB-1500L laser guided bombs 
8 &#215; FAB-500T dumb bombs 
28 &#215; OFAB-250-270 dumb bombs 
32 &#215; OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs 
8 &#215; RBK-500 cluster bombs

IAFsu-30 at lejas AFB


----------



## Ahassan

Somehow depends on pilot!!!!


----------



## Indicom

airbus said:


> Somehow depends on pilot!!!!



Not really,the PAF Vipers in their current config gets beaten even if the MKI pilot is dozing off.

No hard feelings BTW.


----------



## Imran Khan

sir pak have f-16 from 83 we have long experince with this bird and remember no f-16 down from 1994


----------



## Ahassan

Indicom said:


> Not really,the PAF Vipers in their current config gets beaten even if the MKI pilot is dozing off.
> 
> No hard feelings BTW.



No actually i was talkin about the f-16 MLU's which can some how compete with su-30's only if thr is exprnce pilot in it!!!


----------



## z9-ec

Indicom said:


> Not really,the PAF Vipers in their current config gets beaten even if the MKI pilot is dozing off.
> 
> No hard feelings BTW.



Not a chance. PAF Pilot armed with 6 AIM-120C5 or SD-10. It is a worthy bird cosidering the MLU M3


----------



## su-47

z9-ec said:


> Not a chance. PAF Pilot armed with 6 AIM-120C5 or SD-10. It is a worthy bird cosidering the MLU M3



Not yet. 

It will be a few years before PAF has a credible BVR capable air force. By that i mean 3 or more BVR capable squadrons.


----------



## z9-ec

su-47 said:


> Not yet.
> 
> It will be a few years before PAF has a credible BVR capable air force. By that i mean 3 or more BVR capable squadrons.



Actually, we have quite a few squadrons with limited or capable BVR considering the Mirage Rose programs. Indigenous BVRs include H2 (60 km) and H4 (120 km).


----------



## Black Stone

How are we suppose to compare them? Do you mean like Top Trumps or under a dog fight scenario? or what?.


----------



## Kharian_Beast

Well according to the debriefing after Red Flag, the Americans were quick to point out the lack of Indian experience with the SU30MKI. When they would use their thrust vectoring to maneuver in dog fights, the SU30 would lose altitude with its nose pitched up. All the Americans had to do was switch to guns and dive in after them. F-16's were involved along with others, the Americans did point out the SU was a bit more advanced than legacy era aircraft but the sheer size of the plane along with the huge radar cross section and Indian pilot inexperience coupled with faulty AWACS and lack of battlefield intelligence and awareness cost them dearly. Clearly it's all about the pilot, although BVR capability has numerical superiority with the Indians.

I would say this is a fair conclusion : 

WVR : F-16
BVR : SU30

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## daredevil

The future of A/C fights is now increasingly becoming network centric and IMHO BVR fights will the thing of the future and the better BVR capable A/Cs will rule the roost. In this context, Su30MKI has upper hand over F-16.

If it comes to WVR, all that will matter is pilot skills.


----------



## Neo

daredevil said:


> The future of A/C fights is now increasingly becoming network centric and IMHO BVR fights will the thing of the future and the better BVR capable A/Cs will rule the roost. In this context, Su30MKI has upper hand over F-16.


I agree! Though AMRAAM is a war tested and reliable. Main advantage of the R-77 Archer is \in range and maneuverability. The longer range is because the R-77 is a larger 200 mm vs 178 mm (8 vs 7 in), heavier 175 vs 150 kg (386 vs 335 lb) missile than the AMRAAM and contains more propellant. 



> If it comes to WVR, all that will matter is pilot skills.


Skills and experience and in this case PAF will dominate the dog fight since all F-16's are flown by senior pilots.


----------



## Ahassan

Bro all f-16's in PAF inventory are not flown by senior pilots!!!
Many of my Frndz are flying current F-16's thr rank is only Flt lt's so it doesnt matter.....

As far as R-77Missile is concerned we have some how comparable missile that is H-4 which is also radar evading,MLU f-16's armed with H-4 and AIM-120C5 can easily compete with Su-30....!!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muradk

airbus said:


> Bro all f-16's in PAF inventory are not flown by senior pilots!!!
> Many of my Frndz are flying current F-16's thr rank is only Flt lt's so it doesnt matter.....
> 
> As far as R-77Missile is concerned we have some how comparable missile that is H-4 which is also radar evading,MLU f-16's armed with H-4 and AIM-120C5 can easily compete with Su-30....!!!!



The junior Officer go to 11 Sqd first before they join 9 Sqd. By the time they are in 9 Sqd they are fully trained in combat. Specially CCS being at the same base they get pretty good traning with them. 11, 9 Sqd both go head to head with Instructors of CCS. So while they are doing their Conversion they get to have some fun to see how they are doing.


----------



## Ahassan

Muradk said:


> The junior Officer go to 11 Sqd first before they join 9 Sqd. By the time they are in 9 Sqd they are fully trained in combat. Specially CCS being at the same base they get pretty good traning with them. 11, 9 Sqd both go head to head with Instructors of CCS. So while they are doing their Conversion they get to have some fun to see how they are doing.



U r rite sir thy are in 11 SQN and recently talked to them one of them is going to Germany for training purpose!!!

My question to u is do germans have good facility to help pilots in aerial combat field!!!

In aerial combat field!!! wat do u thnk germans are good or french!!!


----------



## Indicom

Dear Friends,this can go on & on,but the simple truth is that the MKI has beaten the F-16,F-15 in a dogfight and are better in both WVR & BVR as rightly explained by Col.Fernoff of USAF.But having said so the Blk-52 upgrades with a good PAF pilot will be a serious bet that I would'nt underestimate.


----------



## Muradk

airbus said:


> U r rite sir thy are in 11 SQN and recently talked to them one of them is going to Germany for training purpose!!!
> 
> My question to u is do germans have good facility to help pilots in aerial combat field!!!
> 
> In aerial combat field!!! wat do u thnk germans are good or french!!!



Hands down French, I have had ACMs with them they are really good.
If he is going to Germany he is not going for flying he is going for some acydamic or to learn about a few toys we are getting.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## was

Indicom said:


> Dear Friends,this can go on & on,but the simple truth is that the MKI has beaten the F-16,F-15 in a dogfight and are better in both WVR & BVR as rightly explained by Col.Fernoff of USAF.But having said so the Blk-52 upgrades with a good PAF pilot will be a serious bet that I would'nt underestimate.



i think you are overestimating your MKI


----------



## z9-ec

Indicom said:


> Dear Friends,this can go on & on,but the simple truth is that the MKI has beaten the F-16,F-15 in a dogfight and are better in both WVR & BVR as rightly explained by Col.Fernoff of USAF.But having said so the Blk-52 upgrades with a good PAF pilot will be a serious bet that I would'nt underestimate.



Dude, who told you F-16s lost? Perhaps, you should go through the thread all over again. 

In op. red flag the USAF F-16s were able to defeat the Su-30s in simulated air combat due to inexperience/inability and faulty intel sent by awacs to the MKI. I think we even have the video of that briefing here.


----------



## daredevil

Guys, it is not wise to compare F-16 and MKI in military exercises. These military exercises are only for learning from one another, not to show which one is better.

Technically, if you put F-16 and MKI side-by-side, MKI is superior, no two ways about it.

To cut long story short, MKI has radar with a greater detection range, higher jamming immunity and better maneuverability compared to F-16

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## z9-ec

daredevil said:


> Guys, it is not wise to compare F-16 and MKI in military exercises. These military exercises are only for learning from one another, not to show which one is better.
> 
> Technically, if you put F-16 and MKI side-by-side, MKI is superior, no two ways about it.
> 
> To cut long story short, MKI has radar with a greater detection range, higher jamming immunity and better maneuverability compared to F-16




Actually, my intent was to justify that no matter how superior or inferior the aircraft is the final aspect which comes in to account is the pilot's ability to cope up with the scenario at hand. This by no means makes F-16 inferior but a worthy opponent against the MKI.


----------



## daredevil

z9-ec said:


> Actually, my intent was to justify that no matter how superior or inferior the aircraft is the final aspect which comes in to account is the pilot's ability to cope up with the scenario at hand. This by no means makes F-16 inferior but a worthy opponent against the MKI.



Definitely, F-16 is not inferior and is a worthy opponent. If one has to talk about the numbers, IIRC, Su-30MKIs maneuverability give this aircraft superiority in close air combat in which it excels the 'F-16C Block 50' by 15 percent, 'F-16C Block 60' by 20-30 percent (as the high wing loading significantly limits its maneuverability in close-range combat). I will try to find the link. It was on Vayusena I guess (what I posted here was from my comparison notes).


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

daredevil said:


> Definitely, F-16 is not inferior and is a worthy opponent. If one has to talk about the numbers, IIRC, Su-30MKI&#8217;s maneuverability give this aircraft superiority in close air combat in which it excels the 'F-16C Block 50' by 15 percent, 'F-16C Block 60' by 20-30 percent (as the high wing loading significantly limits its maneuverability in close-range combat). I will try to find the link. It was on Vayusena I guess (what I posted here was from my comparison notes).


read up on red flag, you'll see just how maneuverable the sukhoi was against the F-15 and F-16. there are at least a hundred posts here by Blain2 and Shebazi going into detail, I don't need to post. thrust vectoring that you see your pilots perform was of absolutely no use in a real battle, just like everyone here argued earlier.

read this http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ts-usaf-briefing-about-iaf-participation.html


----------



## Goodperson

asaad-ul-islam said:


> read up on red flag, you'll see just how maneuverable the sukhoi was against the F-15 and F-16. there are at least a hundred posts here by Blain2 and Shebazi going into detail, I don't need to post. thrust vectoring that you see your pilots perform was of absolutely no use in a real battle, just like everyone here argued earlier.
> 
> read this http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ts-usaf-briefing-about-iaf-participation.html



If you see the videos in Youtube they have disappeared. However you can still see them at USAF pilot describes IAF Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag-08 - The DEW Line. 

One should also read comments and understand about the videos. 

This is the post from the forum:
_________________________________________________
Quote:
On Ex Red Flag-the You Tube video- The other side of the Coin!!

These are comments by a friend of mine-one of our top grade professional youngsters, and a participant in the recently concluded Red Flag Ex in Nellis AFB.
1. No 1vs1s were flown during the Flag,nor did they engage in Thrust Vectoring(TV) then.IvIs were flown during the sorties in Mountain Home AFB and that too on the first day only! In none of these ex were the Su ever shot down or become vulnerable(This can of course be checked on the ACMI Pod films/casettes).
2.The data rates of turn and TV with regard to the Su is grossly out- the ones on the F-22 may be closer to the truth!! The figures for the Su are very much more than that referred to in the video!!
3.The Radar of the F-22 is superior to the Su presently!
4.Fratricide by our side did take place, more due to not being networked-it occurred when the AWACS was not available(u/s) and a very poor standard of controlling by USAF controllers( terminology and accent).This was mentioned in the debrief.Surprisingly, Fratricide was present for the F-15C as well as other allied A/C. Considering that they were better networked( Link-16,IFF-Mode 4 etc), while we had nothing,it should be a matter of concern for them and not us!!
5.FOD-Take-Off separation-was 30" at Mountain Home but extended to 1min and known to all participants before the start of the Ex!!
6.Incidentally,Mission achievement ratio was higher than 90%, whereas the mission success rates were significantly lower for the USAF, inspite of us op some 20000 kms away!!
7.Our level of experience was a standard Sqn cross-section and our youngsters performed very well in the new environment and not one rule was violated.Our professional approach was very favourably commented upon.
8. In the ultimate analyses, we had a significant edge all throughout and retained it.
It appears that this video was to pep up the US industry, showing that the F-22 is the answer to the Su-30MKI and one never knows-this will be the pitch for larger orders!!


----------



## daredevil

Goodperson, why don't you post the same in the Red Flag thread. This will clear some air with some of our friends and we can discuss some more there.


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi Webmaster,

Please kindly let us know why is this thread open? Somebody puts in a one liner----has no say about the issue from his own research and you let it roll.

Isn't it against the posting rules on starting a new thread!!!


----------



## z9-ec

Oh come on. Seriously, F-22 vs Su-30. Thats like an elephant being compared with girafe.

Further more, comments on YouTube are unreliable and it's basically like Wikipedia where anyone could brag about anything. Like me being the Prince of Bel Air.

The video here in question is the briefing given with regards to MKI which revealed some serious flaws.


----------



## Super Falcon

there is not much of difference in both birds but what make makes f 16 perfect is its experienced in most wars and came victorious


----------



## batmannow

Super Falcon said:


> there is not much of difference in both birds but what make makes f 16 perfect is its experienced in most wars and came victorious



sure but its gona be obsolute some day, and time will pass forward!
its always a man behind maschine!
i hounrly accept SU30MKI, surly superior thn f-16's, but PAF have the edge , when it comes to man.


----------



## superbikez

lol guess what i open defence.pk and saw this thread F16 and MKI comp i really happy wow wat a nice thread after thn im shocked oh damn its my TOPIC  lolzzz

anways nice replyzz


----------



## batmannow

superbikez said:


> lol guess what i open defence.pk and saw this thread F16 and MKI comp i really happy wow wat a nice thread after thn im shocked oh damn its my TOPIC  lolzzz
> 
> anways nice replyzz



keep tryin.... you will become good some day!


----------



## Muradk

daredevil said:


> Guys, it is not wise to compare F-16 and MKI in military exercises. These military exercises are only for learning from one another, not to show which one is better.
> 
> Technically, if you put F-16 and MKI side-by-side, MKI is superior, no two ways about it.
> 
> To cut long story short, MKI has radar with a greater detection range, higher jamming immunity and better maneuverability compared to F-16




*Better maneuverability compared to F-16 lets see.*

Jet plunges deep into a post-stall envelope, a realm where many would lose control and plummet into a ground. But for this jet with the pairs of Thrust-Vectoring nozzles and an ear-shattering thrust-to-power ratio, such a maneuver is all but a routine. Neatly pitching its nose up, over and beyond the vertical, the jet seemingly defies the physics of flight.
The concept of developing post-stall maneuverability into a new blend of fighter tactics is not new. It was first explored in earnest in the late 1970s, under the guidance of German engg Wolfgang Herbst.
Despite what the air-show audience might perceive they are seeing, the thrust-vectoring nozzle provides no magic wand for manipulating a combat aircrafts performance. It does not allow a fighter with a pathetic turn rate to mysteriously halve its turn radius. Engineering studies have established that TV ( thrust-vectoring ) techniques have minimal impact on a fighters turn rate under typical modern air combat fight conditions, regardless of weather turn rate is measured on a sustained or an instantaneous basis. Adding TV nozzles will not improve the jets acceleration. Such measures of fighter performance as specific excess power, time to altitude, or climb rate, depend heavily on thrust-to-power ratio, something which TV technology does nothing to enhance. If anything , the extra weight of a TV engine nozzle may harm many of these traditional performance measures.
The reason that the TV nozzle fails to alter performance measures, including measures for turn rate, is that TV has only an incidental effect on aircraft lift. With a few exception like STOVL aircraft- Operating at low speed- TV was never intended to be lift enhancing features, And the amount of lift force they can provide, pales in compassion to the aerodynamic lift available from the wing.
Contrary to popular perception changing the direction the jets nose points does not alter the flight path of the aircraft. This has been demonstrated mostly during air show performances, as it pitches its nose end-over-end, while its existing momentum continues to propel it along the original trajectory. Changing the flight path of an aircrafts flight path without flying into the ground is a demanding task. Consider for example that the jet is undergoing even modest 5-g turn weather on a transient or a sustained basis its wing and other lifting surfaces generates a force 5 times the weight of the aircraft. A modern fighter even with Thrust-to-weight ratio that slightly exceeds one will see only marginal gains from the thrust to increase its overall lift. There is not enough thrust available, under ordinary flight conditions, to both overcome drag and contribute to lift in a meaningful way. Other than allowing the pilot to decelerate rapidly to the corner speed- Where its natural instantaneous turn performance will be at a max- TV technology will have no meaningful impact on the turn rate.
Rather being a lift enhancement device, TV nozzle is an altitude control mechanism allowing the pilot to maintain control of the aircraft deep into the post stall regime, under conditions that were previously unthinkable. This is a flight regime where the airflow over the fighters wings will become separated, where drag will rise precipitously, lift will decrease or even vanish. A smart F-16 pilot will wait for it to go in a TV position and take full advantage of its agility, just think for a min the weight of the SU VS the weight of the F-16. The tons of Ammo on the SU VS F-16. 
You have to understand that both planes are very different in all aspects and when it will come to close quarters F-16 will have a big advantage over a huge target like SU.
Yes there is no doubt that SU being a powerful machine will not have an advantage on the F-16 if the F-16 pilot is not careful and passes him over or under him during a Dog-fight the SU can go TV and take a shot.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

Goodperson said:


> If you see the videos in Youtube they have disappeared. However you can still see them at USAF pilot describes IAF Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag-08 - The DEW Line.
> 
> One should also read comments and understand about the videos.
> 
> This is the post from the forum:
> _________________________________________________
> Quote:
> On Ex Red Flag-the You Tube video- The other side of the Coin!!
> 
> These are comments by a friend of mine-one of our top grade professional youngsters, and a participant in the recently concluded Red Flag Ex in Nellis AFB.
> 1. No 1vs1s were flown during the Flag,nor did they engage in Thrust Vectoring(TV) then.IvIs were flown during the sorties in Mountain Home AFB and that too on the first day only! In none of these ex were the Su ever shot down or become vulnerable(This can of course be checked on the ACMI Pod films/casettes).
> 2.The data rates of turn and TV with regard to the Su is grossly out- the ones on the F-22 may be closer to the truth!! The figures for the Su are very much more than that referred to in the video!!
> 3.The Radar of the F-22 is superior to the Su presently!
> 4.Fratricide by our side did take place, more due to not being networked-it occurred when the AWACS was not available(u/s) and a very poor standard of controlling by USAF controllers( terminology and accent).This was mentioned in the debrief.Surprisingly, Fratricide was present for the F-15C as well as other allied A/C. Considering that they were better networked( Link-16,IFF-Mode 4 etc), while we had nothing,it should be a matter of concern for them and not us!!
> 5.FOD-Take-Off separation-was 30" at Mountain Home but extended to 1min and known to all participants before the start of the Ex!!
> 6.Incidentally,Mission achievement ratio was higher than 90%, whereas the mission success rates were significantly lower for the USAF, inspite of us op some 20000 kms away!!
> 7.Our level of experience was a standard Sqn cross-section and our youngsters performed very well in the new environment and not one rule was violated.Our professional approach was very favourably commented upon.
> 8. In the ultimate analyses, we had a significant edge all throughout and retained it.
> It appears that this video was to pep up the US industry, showing that the F-22 is the answer to the Su-30MKI and one never knows-this will be the pitch for larger orders!!


sources used from my side of the argument are from aviationweek, I think that's a lot more reliable than what is said above.

anyways, I've said this before. The americans did not use thrust vectoring on their aircraft until they reached the F/A-22 when their technology had matured. second, light aircraft like the F-16 simply do not need TVC to dogfight with a 38 ton elephant like the flanker. 

the only things I see useful is the radar, even that is not necessary for today's AWAC's environment, and the range which is awesome for deep strike roles. I still would not risk flying that giant bird over SAM-infested territory.


----------



## Kharian_Beast

Can someone inform me if H-2 and H-4 (120 km range) BVR missiles have been inducted for the PAF, and if our Mirage will also carry them? According to info on the web they are modified South African BVR missiles and completed testing in 2003 (developed by NESCOM). 

If such weaponry is already in our arsenal why was the order for 500 AMRAAM from US placed in 2007? 

Please discuss.


----------



## ejaz007

Kharian_Beast said:


> Can someone inform me if H-2 and H-4 (120 km range) BVR missiles have been inducted for the PAF, and if our Mirage will also carry them? According to info on the web they are modified South African BVR missiles and completed testing in 2003 (developed by NESCOM).
> 
> If such weaponry is already in our arsenal why was the order for 500 AMRAAM from US placed in 2007?
> 
> Please discuss.



H-2 and H-4 are for Mirages and perhaps F-7 while AIM-120 is for F-16's. We have not matted the H-2 or H-4 on the falcons. This is the information I have perhaps some one can correct me if I am wrong.

Also I believe AMRAAM is better than H-2 and H-4.


----------



## ejaz007

Super Falcon said:


> there is not much of difference in both birds but what make makes f 16 perfect is its experienced in most wars and came victorious



There is lots of difference between both planes. While performance of both in different scenarios may be compared technical parameters can not be compared. F-16 is a light weight multi role fighter while SU-30 falls in the heavy weight multi role fighter bomber and air superiority category. Original SU-30 was designed as an air superiority fighter however depending upon country's specific requirements has been converted into an fighter bomber and air superiority fighter.

See both planes specs and you would realize.


----------



## waheedrafiq

Salaam to all my Pakistani brothers 

I am very worried about my mother land , and very concern that after 50 years of indepentants. we still can't supply the basic needs as eletric for 24 hours 


I was wondering if someone can answer my question Why can't Pakistan build a war plane all by them self. or have I got this wrong.

because I can;t really see the point of buying them from USA ?


----------



## General Fujita

The reason pakistan did not build the jf-17 all by itself is because it would have been too expensive. Not only do joint ventures reduce the cost in R&D, they also bring together knowledge from different fields and perspectives making the project more efficient. Hey, you have to start off somewhere and i think that this is a great start by pakistan on the road to self-sufficientcy


----------



## Chanakya.10

General Fujita said:


> The reason pakistan did not build the jf-17 all by itself is because it would have been too expensive. Not only do joint ventures reduce the cost in R&D, they also bring together knowledge from different fields and perspectives making the project more efficient. Hey, you have to start off somewhere and i think that this is a great start by pakistan on the road to self-sufficientcy





Not sarcastically as some might percieve, but may i know which specific parts of JF-17 were actually MADE in pakistan and BY pakistan???? And in which labs?????? With credible links plz if anyone can.......


----------



## Imran Khan

who say to you jf-17 is fully made in pakistan we all know its joint production engene from russia avioncs from france some parts from chaina and some parts from pakistan it will become a jf-17 don't bring here your drama its just qes thread and answers for guys wich don't know abut air force stick on topic please not highjek thread like you gus already so many thread distroy please


----------



## Chanakya.10

^^^^^^^ dont fite wid me when u dont understand any post......in every thread u r bashing at me, whats wrong????

I just asked *WHICH PART OF JF-17 IS MADE IN PAKISTAN BY PAKISTAN*.....thats all, if u dont have any answer to this dont reply to my post......


----------



## EagleEyes

Chanakya.10 said:


> Not sarcastically as some might percieve, but may i know which specific parts of JF-17 were actually MADE in pakistan and BY pakistan???? And in which labs?????? With credible links plz if anyone can.......



I dont think anything was made in Pakistan except for some designing works. Most of the work was done in China with collaboration. Pakistan worked mostly on avionics and designing.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Muradk

Chanakya.10 said:


> Not sarcastically as some might percieve, but may i know which specific parts of JF-17 were actually MADE in pakistan and BY pakistan???? And in which labs?????? With credible links plz if anyone can.......



I can give you the names and parts we developed and the name of the labs but its confidential info. You think JF-17 is the only plane we are working on with China.
When you work on a new design you need a big facility for R&D and space for it to test. China had the facility. The JF-17 factory is twice the size of General Dynamics in Dover TX USA. If you don't know the F-16 factory is 1 mile long.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

ok..................where are the pakistani awacs? 
shouldnt we have had em already or is someone going 
to get that deal killed aswell?


----------



## Rafael

Guys I know this is not a proper thread to post this question but i couldnot find realated thread either so i m posting it here.

Do we have somthing like america's strategic oil reserve which can be used incase of a war or a naval blockade? in other words do we have some oil reserves for atleast 30 days??

Please comment!!

Regards,


----------



## Owais

atmi_chuza said:


> ok..................where are the pakistani awacs?
> shouldnt we have had em already or is someone going
> to get that deal killed aswell?



The AWACs program with Saab-Ericsson is going smooth. we have received 1 of 5 Erieyes this year and 4 of them will be coming in 2-3years.

see the thread for complete information

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/1284-pakistan-awacs-aew-cs-aircrafts-21.html


----------



## SSGPA1

Chanakya.10 said:


> ^^^^^^^ dont fite wid me when u dont understand any post......in every thread u r bashing at me, whats wrong????
> 
> I just asked *WHICH PART OF JF-17 IS MADE IN PAKISTAN BY PAKISTAN*.....thats all, if u dont have any answer to this dont reply to my post......



Darling,

Weapon delivery system is mostly made in Kamra. Avionics, electronics and design has tremendous input from PAF engineers.

I work in Aerospace industry and trust me not even a single nation is manufacturing fighters etc without forign help.

You may find hard to believe but the fact is that most EU and US fighters have some material manufactured in Malaysia, Mexico and even in China.


Main thing is that PAF has its own fighter now and they don't have to look for spares from an out side source.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## blain2

raheel1 said:


> Guys I know this is not a proper thread to post this question but i couldnot find realated thread either so i m posting it here.
> 
> Do we have somthing like america's strategic oil reserve which can be used incase of a war or a naval blockade? in other words do we have some oil reserves for atleast 30 days??
> 
> Please comment!!
> 
> Regards,



Not the correct thread for this question, but the short answer is yes, we do have our strategic reserves of POL and they are goo for 30-45 days (at least that was what I had heard when Gen Mirza Aslam beg was the CoAS).

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

blain2 said:


> Not the correct thread for this question, but the short answer is yes, we do have our strategic reserves of POL and they are goo for 30-45 days (at least that was what I had heard when Gen Mirza Aslam beg was the CoAS).



you r correct but during the oil crisis (US$ 150/barrel), the strategic reserves were depleted down to 3 days. now-a-days they r re-building as cost of oil is down.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Anwar2

In the context of JF-17 it does not matter where the individual parts are fabricated, as long as the following conditions are met:
1.	These are assured resources, means we are not embargoed when we need the parts.
2.	The supplier industrial base is large enough to justify production runs during the long life cycle of the jet (could be as long as 40 years).
3.	Supplier is financially stable.

China being our ever green friend, and with an Aerospace industrial base on the upswing meets all of the above conditions. 

Pakistan&#8217;s biggest challenges are:
1.	To have an assured source for the RD-93 engine or its Chinese incarnation as WS-13. This necessitates achieving a long term breakthrough in relationship with Russia. Or alternately negotiate partnership in the WS-13 consortium?
2.	Integration of Weapons Systems data bus, electro-optics optimized to topologies that suit Pakistan&#8217;s long term requirements. This is the area PAF and certain select players in the Pakistani defense industry have to make a substantial investment in R&D, production and obsolescence fighting mechanisms.

The best long term strategy is to work on growth versions from now with China, and develop an export market. As soon as the total fleet size exceeds about 700-800, the long term future of JF-17 will be assured.


----------



## waheedrafiq

You see what concerns me is that Air Power is vital in War and if you can't manufacture your own parts and build a complete machine , then you are in a losing battle , look at our mother-indian , you have Reva G-Wiz car a first indian electric car , and then you got Tata company who build the worlds first car that cost 1000 pounds. and then you got Pakistan who can't even build a wind turbine engine that generates electric to solve their electric problems. and don't tell me we don't make electric motors


----------



## Kharian_Beast

waheedrafiq said:


> You see what concerns me is that Air Power is vital in War and if you can't manufacture your own parts and build a complete machine , then you are in a losing battle , look at our mother-indian , you have Reva G-Wiz car a first indian electric car , and then you got Tata company who build the worlds first car that cost 1000 pounds. and then you got Pakistan who can't even build a wind turbine engine that generates electric to solve their electric problems. and don't tell me we don't make electric motors



Your concerns are well founded, but please do not think that building cars will save someone in the event of war. These are shortcomings that are apparent in Pakistan but in no way shape or form hinder the capability to summon a defense of the nation in times of crisis.


----------



## hasang20

Muslims countries should unite i dont think anyone can stop us we all need unity.


----------



## waheedrafiq

I think you have hit the stop there brother we need to have unity. and be able to trade amongst each other. I just feel you know that we can over come this shortfall such as electric cut outs , by adding solar power and wind turbine power on to the grid , if you where to think about it specailly with Wind turbine it should not be a issue as we should be able to produce a motor and all the steel comes from paksitan anyway , so i feel its possible , its just needs someone to do it. and if they are not carefull I will make that move soon inshallah.


----------



## MastanKhan

It is not the right place---but discussion is going awry----


Gentlemen and young readers,

It is a wake up call for the young pakistanis----open up your eyes and open up your minds----there is no such thing as UNITY AMONGST MUSLIM COUNTRIES. It is long over due that muslim pakistani boys get over this misconception. It has never happened in the history of islam and will never happen till the day the world die's. 

So, do the next best thing that is possible--do something different---do something that your and my parents were never able to do--create unity amongst yourselves---as pakistanis---the first step in getting to that goal is to recognize the diversity amongst the citizenery of the people of pakistan----diversity means to acknowledge the uniqueness of the individuals----even though we are born pakistanis---we still have our ethnic groups-----.

It really amazes me to realize that 'HOW HARD HEADED WE PAKISTANIS ARE'. FOR THE 60 PLUS YEARS WE ARE FORCING EVERYONE TO BE PAKISTANI FIRST----we have disgracefully fallen on our faces-----we have failed because we have been lying to ourselves----the foundations built on lies crumble faster than sandcastles built on the ocean's beaches.

To take the nation forward---the younger pakistanis will have to think different---acknowledge and understand that we are a group of people who are unique in their diversity----you take the diversity away from them----you are creating a problem. Let them be who they are---and they will prove that pakistan comes first and foremost----it is just basic human nature to preserve ones identity----tragically pakistanis failed miserably.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Muradk

We have 15 days of fuel, and 45 days of Ammo. 70% of fuel is consumed by PAF.


----------



## SSGPA1

Thank you sir.

15 days of fuel for peace time or for war time?


----------



## Muradk

War time. 
This concept of Indians taking action against Pakistan can go very wrong for Zardari, If something happens and Zardari doesn't take action than Army will take over.


----------



## Kharian_Beast

Muradk said:


> War time.
> This concept of Indians taking action against Pakistan can go very wrong for Zardari, If something happens and Zardari doesn't take action than Army will take over.



Let's keep our fingers crossed sir.


----------



## EagleEyes

Muradk said:


> War time.
> This concept of Indians taking action against Pakistan can go very wrong for Zardari, If something happens and Zardari doesn't take action than Army will take over.



I wouldn't mind. I would have kid with military advisory than Zardari alone.


----------



## superbikez

*What about Pakistan's future Aircraft. Jets, refueler, AWAcS and other fighter, transport Aircrafts list ? *


----------



## AliFarooq

J-10
J-11
J-xx (maybe in 10 to 20 years lol)
kc-135 (refuller for f-16, hopefully americans sell)


----------



## superbikez

i dont think KC 135 US intrested to sell us  but if thn Good for us..

Kindly dont post WISHLIST only post reality bases information if any wishlist thn just post like ie: is that anychance to get B2  otherwise post right info here.. thanks

just like i wanted to know is there anychance pakistan will get New F16s ? or F15 Eagle ? and also any Carpet bomber ?


----------



## AliFarooq

Na, i think, in a few years america will sell us the kc-135, if we continue to buy more f-16.
Lockhead also selling pakistan C-130 transport planes.

J-10
J-11
J-XX

is not a wish list lol, pakistan will surely be gettin those in future lol.


----------



## AliFarooq

Lockheed to supply F-16, C-130, P 3 Orion to Pakistan

KARACHI, Nov 26 (APP) - Lockheed Martin, USA will supply upgraded F-16 jets, C-130 transport planes and P 3 Orion surveillance aircraft to Pakistan armed forces. This was stated by President Lockheed Martin, Middle East and Africa, Gen (rtd) James Jamerson in an interview here Wednesday.

To a question, he said that he had meetings with top officials of Ministry of Defence, Chief of Naval Staff and Air Chief of Pakistan Air Force.

&#8220;I have discussed with the Naval Chief the Orion aircraft up-gradation project,&#8221; he said mentioning that Orion aircraft were being upgraded for Pakistan Navy in the United States and they will soon come to Pakistan.

Regarding the supply of F-16 jets, he said that these fighters were upgraded and overhauled in Pakistan as well as in USA.

&#8220;We are also supplying equipment and parts to Pakistan for F-16s overhauled in Pakistan. Similarly, we are also upgrading F-16s in USA for supply to Pakistan,&#8221; said the Lockheed Martin President.

James said that his company was also upgrading a number of C-130 for Pakistan Air Force in USA.

He did not mention the exact number of these jets and aircraft saying the number was significant.

http://www.app.com.pk/en_/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=60382&Itemid=1


----------



## superbikez

but the question is numbers ? mmm anyways nice repliz


----------



## superbikez

My question is how many NEW F16s coming in PAF ?? and about model version?


----------



## General Fujita

18 F-16 C/D


----------



## Muradk

General Fujita said:


> 18 F-16 C/D



And if Sheeri Rehman sleeps with obama than we might get Block-52


----------



## Kharian_Beast

Muradk said:


> And if Sheeri Rehman sleeps with obama than we might get Block-52



I don't think you will see high ticket platforms coming from Obama any time soon, with or without Sheeri Rehman's help!


----------



## Imran Khan

Muradk said:


> And if Sheeri Rehman sleeps with obama than we might get Block-52



sir this one i post for f-22 rapter now i change my stance now we send shery rehman for f-35


----------



## Jawad73

As being widely reported in our media that IAF's limited air strike is almost inevitable. My question is do we have enough capability to counter that attack which will most probably target "Mureedke" where jamat Al Dawa (Lashker -e Taiba) is based and some other so called camps in Azad Kashmir...
Also what are our chances of retaliation OR we will just react the same as we use to do after every Predator ???


----------



## Imran Khan

itruduce your self bro and read there is thread already open abut this


----------



## RS4

I have a question for all of you, i have asked myself with operations in the Norther and tribal area looking more and more as if they are not going to be short term operations, does the PAF intend to improve its close air support facilities, for example would not the AC 130 spectre gunship be an effective weapons system for supporting troops. Iknow the USAF has plans to reduce its fleet by 30 aircraft this year alone so we could in thery purchas them. 

What are your thoughts?
Regarsd RS4


----------



## Keysersoze

RS4 said:


> I have a question for all of you, i have asked myself with operations in the Norther and tribal area looking more and more as if they are not going to be short term operations, does the PAF intend to improve its close air support facilities, for example would not the AC 130 spectre gunship be an effective weapons system for supporting troops. Iknow the USAF has plans to reduce its fleet by 30 aircraft this year alone so we could in thery purchas them.
> 
> What are your thoughts?
> Regarsd RS4



I am sure the AC-130 would be a great addition to the PAF However I would suggest that a 3 aircraft complement would be needed.(one in maintenance one in ops and one on standby) at $130-190 million per unit it would place it beyond the budget of the PAF at the moment. And bear in mind the cost does not include the support costs. thats at least half a billion plus in costs. If The U.S. releases some in EDA then maybe.


----------



## fatman17

Jawad73 said:


> As being widely reported in our media that IAF's limited air strike is almost inevitable. My question is do we have enough capability to counter that attack which will most probably target "Mureedke" where jamat Al Dawa (Lashker -e Taiba) is based and some other so called camps in Azad Kashmir...
> Also what are our chances of retaliation OR we will just react the same as we use to do after every Predator ???



not likely friend!


----------



## fatman17

Keysersoze said:


> I am sure the AC-130 would be a great addition to the PAF However I would suggest that a 3 aircraft complement would be needed.(one in maintenance one in ops and one on standby) at $130-190 million per unit it would place it beyond the budget of the PAF at the moment. And bear in mind the cost does not include the support costs. thats at least half a billion plus in costs. If The U.S. releases some in EDA then maybe.



agreed but like the A-10 Warthog, the AC-130 is for exclusive use of the US.


----------



## Keysersoze

fatman17 said:


> agreed but like the A-10 Warthog, the AC-130 is for exclusive use of the US.


Actually they were going to export the A10 at one point (after GW1)
The problem is that they are a luxury of sorts. As few airforces have the budget for a dedicated ground attack aircraft that is as expensive as the warthog.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Muradk

We have 1 AC-130 gunship. But we will not use that until we are sure that the bad guys are there. Intel coming from abroad or through SAT will not. Last thing PAF wants to kill innocent Pakistanis.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## m15t3r7

IS PAKISTAN GONNA BUY J 11 FIGHTER JETS


----------



## TOPGUN

No conform reports as of yet nor as is there any conform report of our interest in it there are only rumors going around ! but i do hope we get it !!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## m15t3r7



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## m15t3r7

YEAH PAKISTAN SHOULD GET THEM....I THINK CHINA WOULD SELL THEM TO PAKISTAN


----------



## Imran Khan

please see here already much more posts we have here

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...offered-chinese-4th-generation-j-11-su27.html

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## m15t3r7

I BET INDIA IS GONNA BE PISSED IF WE END UP BUYING J 11s


----------



## Sgt Automatic

I doubt that India will get pissed, cause if Pakistan gets J-11's than they will just ask the Russians for something better than that, and the cycle will go on. I think wat Pakistan should worry more about should be SAMs.


----------



## Muradk

m15t3r7 said:


> YEAH PAKISTAN SHOULD GET THEM....I THINK CHINA WOULD SELL THEM TO PAKISTAN



It not that easy that China has a fighter and it can sell it to a third party. When you sign a contract with another country to buy engines or avionics , weapons they are mostly forbidden to sell until the seller agrees to it. In our case we have our all time favourite India

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## TOPGUN

I really think if we can we should get some J-11's they will come in very handy !!


----------



## rubyjackass

TOPGUN said:


> I really think if we can we should get some J-11's they will come in very handy !!


J-11s are merely upgraded Sukhois. India already has Sukhois.

Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sukhoi Su-27 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So what do say? 
What other aircrafts can do better?


----------



## TOPGUN

rubyjackass said:


> J-11s are merely upgraded Sukhois. India already has Sukhois.
> 
> Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Sukhoi Su-27 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> So what do say?
> What other aircrafts can do better?



So wat if India has them !! we are not talking about wat aircraft will do better we are talking about j-11 and if we can get them from China as rumors have been going around !!


----------



## Rafael

guys I want to know something realated to the eveent that took place 2 days before, when IAF violated pak airspace:

Rumor has it that their were 2 mirage 2000's of IAF that crossed our border, and we sent some of our f-16s and f-7s..

I want to know that isnt f-7 a inferior aircraft when compared to mirage 2000??? so whywe had sent them??

please share some thoughts,

Regards,


----------



## Imran Khan

raheel1 said:


> guys I want to know something realated to the eveent that took place 2 days before, when IAF violated pak airspace:
> 
> Rumor has it that their were 2 mirage 2000's of IAF that crossed our border, and we sent some of our f-16s and f-7s..
> 
> I want to know that isnt f-7 a inferior aircraft when compared to mirage 2000??? so whywe had sent them??
> 
> please share some thoughts,
> 
> Regards,



f7 we use for more then one porpes i think they sent F7pg for mirage2000 its ok


----------



## Muradk

No matter what aircraft its the man behind the machine, when we recived mirages we used to dog fight with F-6 vs Mirages and to tell you the truth the person with experience would always win , pulling 7 gs in a F-6 was like hanging yourself but we used to do it tho most pilots said it can't be done.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Rafael

Muradk said:


> No matter what aircraft its the man behind the machine, when we recived mirages we used to dog fight with F-6 vs Mirages and to tell you the truth the person with experience would always win , pulling 7 gs in a F-6 was like hanging yourself but we used to do it tho most pilots said it can't be done.




agreed thankyou sir,


----------



## Imran Khan

yes sir you 100&#37; right .also i thing for these kind of missions PAF use its good mans.hope all senior poilets can give good answer to IAF .


----------



## x_man

raheel1 said:


> I want to know that isnt f-7 a inferior aircraft when compared to mirage 2000??? so whywe had sent them??
> 
> please share some thoughts,



When a scramble is ordered, whichever aircraft are on ADA rush to intercept intrudersIts NOT like this that F-7s will only scramble against Migs and F-16s against M-2k or SU-30s: system doesnt work like this.Sometimes aircraft are scrambled from the two different bases as well and one might be giving ADA with F-16s and the other with Mirages.

All PAF pilots are equally trained to intercept any kind of aircraft that violates IB. Unlike Falcon 4.0 ( game) , unfortunately while a pilot sits on the *real *ADA, he/she doesnt have an option to choose opponent fighters.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## x_man

Muradk said:


> No matter what aircraft its the man behind the machine, when we recived mirages we used to dog fight with F-6 vs Mirages and to tell you the truth the person with experience would always win , pulling 7 gs in a F-6 was like hanging yourself but we used to do it tho most pilots said it can't be done.



Very right Sir.On a lighter note , F-6s could never come to terms with Mirages split S, and the Mirage guys always chickened out against F-6s in scissors..........Good old days.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Muradk

x_man said:


> Very right Sir.On a lighter note , F-6s could never come to terms with Mirages split S, and the Mirage guys always chickened out against F-6s in scissors..........Good old days.



 you are right we used to go slow in F-6 Long Arm and the mirage guys used to say no thats cheating because mirage couldn't keep up at that speed to much drag. When we converted to mirages we had too much experience before we went to CCS .I had a total of 14 confirmed kills in CCS in which I shot 4 mirages , it was just a crazy day I was with my course mate who was also evaluating me I saw 4 mirages at 38,000/-ft and CGI says we dont see any one and I said wait a few sec I am going to engage them luck was on my side they never expected that I will jump on all 4 at the same time and they said split and all 4 mirages turned right at the same time so I just had to go Flash1, flash2, Flash 3, Flash4 you are all dead in less than 12 sec. the Instructors were no thats not possible I said ok lets land a develop the film and forsure I had all 4 mirages in my piper in less than 12 sec. Good old days I really miss them.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## vish

Muradk said:


> you are right we used to go slow in F-6 Long Arm and the mirage guys used to say no thats cheating because mirage couldn't keep up at that speed to much drag. When we converted to mirages we had too much experience before we went to CCS .I had a total of 14 confirmed kills in CCS in which I shot 4 mirages , it was just a crazy day I was with my course mate who was also evaluating me I saw 4 mirages at 38,000/-ft and CGI says we dont see any one and I said wait a few sec I am going to engage them luck was on my side they never expected that I will jump on all 4 at the same time and they said split and all 4 mirages turned right at the same time so I just had to go Flash1, flash2, Flash 3, Flash4 you are all dead in less than 12 sec. the Instructors were no thats not possible I said ok lets land a develop the film and forsure I had all 4 mirages in my piper in less than 12 sec. Good old days I really miss them.



You sure were one top-gun during your times sir...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kharian_Beast

Sgt Automatic said:


> I doubt that India will get pissed, cause if Pakistan gets J-11's than they will just ask the Russians for something better than that, and the cycle will go on. I think wat Pakistan should worry more about should be SAMs.



They are already getting something better, they are in the process of their MMRCA deal which will put them over the qualitative edge, so much so that 18 block 52 F-16 will be hard pressed against 130 or so Mig 35/FA/18/Block 60/Rafale. 

I am a big fan of J11B because I know how far Chinese have really come from SU 27 and it is indeed in Pakistan's interests to take a look at this bird.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## batmannow

does PAF needs 500+ aircrafts in 2012, to counter all the dangers!

in the light of , PAF 's growing weakness , against the dangers of IAF , DOES IT REALLY NEEDS 500+ FIGHTER AIRCRAFTS, TILL 2012!


plz open up, your thoughts , so we can reach some point!

thanks


----------



## batmannow

PAF 'S expected targets in the light of an IAF attacks in pakistan!

in the expectation of IAF's surgical strikes in pakistani areas, what could be reailstic targets of PAF in the indian areas!

plz dont be , hypothetical , just go with the post, dont take it personly


----------



## ejaz007

My priority targets would be Srinagar and Avantipur in Occupied Kashmir and Adampur, Halwara and Pathankot in Punjab.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Rafael

Muradk said:


> you are right we used to go slow in F-6 Long Arm and the mirage guys used to say no thats cheating because mirage couldn't keep up at that speed to much drag. When we converted to mirages we had too much experience before we went to CCS .I had a total of 14 confirmed kills in CCS in which I shot 4 mirages , it was just a crazy day I was with my course mate who was also evaluating me I saw 4 mirages at 38,000/-ft and CGI says we dont see any one and I said wait a few sec I am going to engage them luck was on my side they never expected that I will jump on all 4 at the same time and they said split and all 4 mirages turned right at the same time so I just had to go Flash1, flash2, Flash 3, Flash4 you are all dead in less than 12 sec. the Instructors were no thats not possible I said ok lets land a develop the film and forsure I had all 4 mirages in my piper in less than 12 sec. Good old days I really miss them.




sir how many kill do u have?? i mean in 65" 71" war??


----------



## m15t3r7

is china gonna give pakistan j-xx 5th generation stealth fighter????????????????


let me know plez


----------



## Imran Khan

m15t3r7 said:


> is china gonna give pakistan j-xx 5th generation stealth fighter????????????????
> 
> 
> let me know plez



wait dude until it will be ready 

if you wana time pass see j-xx here 






i wana see this is paf coloers


----------



## m15t3r7

my question is that WILL Pakistan get them or china gonna keep the good tech to them self


----------



## Imran Khan

we will get them inshallah.and if you know abut chaina pak defence copretion chaina offer us her every fighter until today see last offer is j-11b .i am shore we get them.


----------



## m15t3r7

imran khan said:


> we will get them inshallah.and if you know abut chaina pak defence copretion chaina offer us her every fighter until today see last offer is j-11b .i am shore we get them.



Thanks dude. And is Pakistan gonna buy j-11b????.......if we do then we gonna have an edge of India


----------



## Imran Khan

m15t3r7 said:


> Thanks dude. And is Pakistan gonna buy j-11b????.......if we do then we gonna have an edge of India



not yet decide abut j-11b may be yes may be no i think if usa stop f-16 block52 same day we go for j-11b wich is 1000 times better then f-16 s all blocks


----------



## m15t3r7

imran khan said:


> not yet decide abut j-11b may be yes may be no i think if usa stop f-16 block52 same day we go for j-11b wich is 1000 times better then f-16 s all blocks



HAY IMRAN CAN YOU FIND THE COST OF J-11B FOR ME


----------



## Imran Khan

you ask too much bro

its between 30mn$ to 35mn$ unit cost

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Najam Khan

Sir Murad i have heard that Mirages becomes unstable while flying in closebox formation...too much air pressure creates between all members due to fault in the basic design of mirage aircraft.This defect arises especially during low-altitude missions.


It is the same reason that Mirage-2000 has small canard type foreplanes on the air intake takes(along with fly-by-wire controls)

These small intakes allow it to secure the advantages of a delta platform nd make it more stable during low altitude missions.

*is that true??*


----------



## x_man

I am sure Sir MK will elaborate it later, just few bits from my side...

Heres a pic of Mirage in a perfect box close formation flying around 1000 during a run-in for 23 March paradeAt the moment they are aprox 10 feet from each , at lo level ( 1000 feet is still low) and seems that they are flying quite stable and smooth





[/url][/IMG]

So I guess that air pressure myth is busted? Problem only arises if one comes directly behind the exhaust i.e. behind the jet washbut this can happen with any aircraftJet wash can even topple the aircraft and there have been few incident where pilots lost controls and crashed at low level Other than this close formation poses no dangers

Mirage III/ V are designed to operate at low level and high speed with full load. They are quite stable at those flight conditions

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Muradk

Very well said X.
Najam yar these are at least 10 feet away in CCS we used to cramp oue selves by coming as close to 6 feet so that the radar cant know how many and yes during a dog fight I went through a Jet wash it threw me away and I almost hit my wingman. WE both felt a DUG and I thought I took his front nose with me. The combat was stopped and we landed God willing nothing happend to my wingman or my wife would have chopped my head off because he was my brother in-law as well.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## batmannow

Muradk said:


> Very well said X.
> Najam yar these are at least 10 feet away in CCS we used to cramp oue selves by coming as close to 6 feet so that the radar cant know how many and yes during a dog fight I went through a Jet wash it threw me away and I almost hit my wingman. WE both felt a DUG and I thought I took his front nose with me. The combat was stopped and we landed God willing nothing happend to my wingman or my wife would have chopped my head off because he was my brother in-law as well.



Muradk; sir
plz come to my thread, i need your guidness, many peopls, thinks that PAF cant defend pakistan on different fronts, against USAF+NATO one side , on other hand, taking on IAF!
but i THOUGHT that , ITS DIFFICULT BUT NOT IMMPOSIBLE?

PLZ, PLZ do comment on that
thanks and regards, wishing you very happy life


----------



## TOPGUN

batmannow said:


> Muradk; sir
> plz come to my thread, i need your guidness, many peopls, thinks that PAF cant defend pakistan on different fronts, against USAF+NATO one side , on other hand, taking on IAF!
> but i THOUGHT that , ITS DIFFICULT BUT NOT IMMPOSIBLE?
> 
> PLZ, PLZ do comment on that
> thanks and regards, wishing you very happy life



Yes we need Muradk sir to come but if anything iam with u on this batmannow we can defend or selves we always have and always will things might be difficult but nothing in the world is impossible and PAF has proved that through out the years time after time GOD bless Pakistan !!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bilsher007

Muradk said:


> you are right we used to go slow in F-6 Long Arm and the mirage guys used to say no thats cheating because mirage couldn't keep up at that speed to much drag. When we converted to mirages we had too much experience before we went to CCS .I had a total of 14 confirmed kills in CCS in which I shot 4 mirages , it was just a crazy day I was with my course mate who was also evaluating me I saw 4 mirages at 38,000/-ft and CGI says we dont see any one and I said wait a few sec I am going to engage them luck was on my side they never expected that I will jump on all 4 at the same time and they said split and all 4 mirages turned right at the same time so I just had to go Flash1, flash2, Flash 3, Flash4 you are all dead in less than 12 sec. the Instructors were no thats not possible I said ok lets land a develop the film and forsure I had all 4 mirages in my piper in less than 12 sec. Good old days I really miss them.




Asalaam alikum wr wb Murad bhai;

Brother are you or were you a PAF fighter pilot ?!! ..Forgive me as i am still very new to this forum. Cause if you are or have been a PAF pilot then i am honoured to meet you sir .


----------



## Imran Khan

Bilsher007 said:


> Asalaam alikum wr wb Murad bhai;
> 
> Brother are you or were you a PAF fighter pilot ?!! ..Forgive me as i am still very new to this forum. Cause if you are or have been a PAF pilot then i am honoured to meet you sir .



yes sir murad from PAF and they also particpate in wars and also sir murad not just a poilet but a war hero .sir murad has SJ from gov of pak.


----------



## Bilsher007

imran khan said:


> yes sir murad from PAF and they also particpate in wars and also sir murad not just a poilet but a war hero .sir murad has SJ from gov of pak.



REALLY !..Well i am honoured to share this forum with PAF fighter pilot who also happens to be a war hero !. Sir murad was describing how he shot four mirages, was he refering to a simulated dogfight exercise or a actual war dogfight ? 

Sir murad can you please sum up PAF current capability against IAF. I personally believe indian Air Force has always had better aircraft and greater numbers than pakistan in every era due to it's financial strength/ resources available to it. But thankfully with grace of ALLAH Pakistan Air Force due to it's very high pilot training and fighter tactics school alongwith jazba e momin have always overwhelmingly beaten Indian Air Force in 1965 and 1971 wars. As a result of the high standards at CCS PAF pilots shot Israelis fighter jets in 1967 and 1973 wars without losing a single of it's pilots in jordanian and iraqi fighter jets. PAF pilots are recognised the best in the world beyond any doubt. All we need to do is get serious funding to modernise PAF and include the latest state of the art fighter jets, radars,bvrs,air refueling aircrafts, awacs and fast track our indigenous jf-17 serial production at home and get involved in many other joint ventures with china in producing fourth and fifth generation jets. 

We should definitely get j-11s from china ASAP. By the way when will J-10(Fc-20 Dragon) be delivered to PAF ? And when approximately J-17 Thunders are expected to be commissioned in PAF ? 

Murad bhai i love PAF for their standards and history i wish i was in PAF, i will make sure my son develops passion for PAF and INSHALLAH will get selected.


----------



## Imran Khan

> how he shot four mirages, was he referrig to a simulated dogfight exercise or a actual war dogfight ?



yes ofcorese simulater india will take mirage2000 when sir murad was leaving paf.also there is no dog fight with indian mirages until now.


----------



## Bilsher007

imran khan said:


> yes ofcorese simulater india will take mirage2000 when sir murad was leaving paf.also there is no dog fight with indian mirages until now.



Which war did sir murad fight in and which squadron was he based in and which fighter jets did he fly ? Did he shot down any IAF jets in the war he was involved in ? 

Also imran bhai can you tell me when will J-10(Fc-20 Dragon) be delivered to PAF ? And when approximately J-17 Thunders are expected to be commissioned in PAF ?

Sorry i know too many questions asked, It's almost like a "Rapid Fire " round !


----------



## Bilsher007

What's the best tactic in shooting down american drones, should we use our fighter jets or just utilise anza missile system ?

Should'nt we have shot down indian su-30s which violated our air space on sunday ? Do you think we were in position to do so ? I believe if we were then we should have shot all or most of the IAF jets which violated our air space.

I also believe that pakistan badly badly badly needs a change of political leadership. A Former ISI chief will do nicely take the example of vladimir putin of russia. We can't afford a weak minded person as head of state, it is already demoralising and highly insulting that someone like zardari is our nation's president.


----------



## Imran Khan

Bilsher007 said:


> Which war did sir murad fight in and which squadron was he based in and which fighter jets did he fly ? Did he shot down any IAF jets in the war he was involved in ?
> 
> Also imran bhai can you tell me when will J-10(Fc-20 Dragon) be delivered to PAF ? And when approximately J-17 Thunders are expected to be commissioned in PAF ?
> 
> Sorry i know too many questions asked, It's almost like a "Rapid Fire " round !




its repeted so many times better you go sir murad profile and read his posts its better then i will write because sir murad writing style is so cool.65 and 71 war both sir murad have fight i think sir murad onbord mirage in 71.

and abut fc-20 it will be next year last months inshallah will be here.abut jf-17 we get 10 and more 25 now per year from PAC if we took delevry from chaina then may be 50 jf-17 per year.10 jf-17 here in paf see

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## raheelocelot

Bilsher007 said:


> What's the best tactic in shooting down american drones, should we use our fighter jets or just utilise anza missile system ?
> 
> Should'nt we have shot down indian su-30s which violated our air space on sunday ? Do you think we were in position to do so ? I believe if we were then we should have shot all or most of the IAF jets which violated our air space.



Fight jets can be used for these drones. But due to drones' slow speed, the best option would be to use slow speed aircraft and helicopters. In this case, the drones would have to be at a lower altitude.

About shooting down of SUs, they came in and as soon as they learned that PAF jets are approaching they ran away. Even if they were shot down, their debri would have fallen on the other side thereby making it difficult for pakistan to explain this act and things would have turned bad. Hope i answered the question 

If u want to read more abt UAVs, i suggest this article UAVs AND THEIR FUTURE PROSPECTS

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muradk

Taking down the UAVs is not a big deal we can put 2 or 3 K-8s in that area they can do a excellent job.

Yes it will be very difficult to defend our selves if we are attacked from both sides. There are a few things I cant say but I will try to answer your question in a manner that your question is answered.
Pl give me a day or 2.
If you are very concerned let me tell you it wount be NATO but Israel. If India decides that yes we have to take 1 or 2 major targets and give the Israelis a green signal for them to land in India.
Israel have diverted all there attention to GAZA and they have done this a few times to mislead countries. Well are thinking oh they are no threat and the next thing we find out they take Iran's plant and than try to take ours.
In that case China will get a freehand to help us military wise and they take over the Island. Iran being wounded will come for our help that would give us extra air power. Israelis are already angry with Russia for supplying Iran with SAMs 
Normally you fight with a country which is has a stable leadership. Everyone knows that Pakistan being a Nuclear Country with people like Zardari who can be taken off in 9 min and than Army taking over would be a scary situation. 

All is racket about India and war will go away just watch after there elections you will not hear a word about the TAJ or MR. Kasab.
If I am not wrong India talks about piece and harmony and blame Pakistan for everything if that's the case why did they give Bugti's son Asylum this shows that all what happend in Balochistan India was behind it.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## RedBaron

Bilsher007 said:


> *What's the best tactic in shooting down american drones*, should we use our fighter jets or just utilise anza missile system ?



Not so fast, my young friend. The US drones may end up saving your soldiers lives. I'm guessing you have not watched the below documentary.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/war-terror/18954-pakistans-war-documentary.html

If you had, you would have seen first-hand the dangers facing your soldiers from the entrenched Taliban. You would have seen tanks retreating (and in one case burnt), infantry ambushed from hidden Taliban nests.

Now these very US drones that you want to shoot down will help your troops site these nests so your tanks and infantry can take them out. Why? Because PA officers now have access to Predator drone video-feeds in FATA. Read the WSJ article:
Pakistan and U.S. Rebuild Strained Military Ties - WSJ.com

Hope watching the documentary and reading the link, you will put two and two together...


----------



## raheelocelot

Muradk said:


> Taking down the UAVs is not a big deal we can put 2 or 3 K-8s in that area they can do a excellent job.
> 
> I would differ here sir. Taking down a simple drone may not be difficult but the UAVs which are under discussion here are quiet lethal. They can defend themselves very well. For more on this, I suggest
> 
> Rise of the Reaper​


----------



## XYON

raheelocelot said:


> Muradk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Taking down the UAVs is not a big deal we can put 2 or 3 K-8s in that area they can do a excellent job.
> 
> I would differ here sir. Taking down a simple drone may not be difficult but the UAVs which are under discussion here are quiet lethal. They can defend themselves very well. For more on this, I suggest
> 
> Rise of the Reaper​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The US/CIA has been using The Reaper (derivative of the Predator) for a very long time. These drones are to be categorized as UCAV (Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle) rather than and ordinary drone or UAV. I have to agree with MuradK that these can be shot off in the air depending on what kind of mission payload they are carrying. Normally the Reaper is tipped with a 10-km range top attack US missile that is not effective against any aircraft. However and if we start to knock down a few, the Americans in defiance may also arm the same UCAV's with short range Sidewinders which can then mean some trouble for our pilots. However, the Reaper or any of its derivative still have to prove ACM against any other manned aircraft and therefore the advantage of a knock-out may just be on our side. But that also in large depends on if the USAF has any eye-in-the-sky AWACS to forewarn the UCAV of a pending aircraft on its tail.
Click to expand...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hj786

raheelocelot said:


> Taking down a simple drone may not be difficult but the UAVs which are under discussion here are quiet lethal. They can defend themselves very well. For more on this, I suggest
> 
> Rise of the Reaper​




MQ-1 Predator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"An Iraqi MiG-25 shot down a Predator performing reconnaissance over the no fly zone in Iraq on 23 December 2002, after the Predator fired a missile at it. This was the first time in history a conventional aircraft and a drone had engaged in combat. Predators had been armed with AIM-92 Stinger air-to-air missiles, and were being used to "bait" Iraqi fighter planes, then run. In this incident, the Predator didn't run, but instead fired one of the Stingers. The Stinger's heat-seeker became "distracted" by the MiG's missile and so missed the MiG, and the Predator was destroyed."


----------



## raheelocelot

The question is not how a UAV would fight against a fighter aircraft. The real threat would be on board jammers, early warning regarding the threat coming to UAVs in operation and Friendly assistance in the form of SAMs and aerial support. Nobody would leave a REAPER class UAV, unprotected...


----------



## Owais

I have a question here.
why JF17 have G-Limit less than +9? even F7PG Hvae G-Limit of -3/+9g. some sources say that It does not have negative static ability


----------



## Manticore

jf17 has 8-8.5G capability probably because of the underpowered enjine and less than 1 thrust to weight ratio.. [only in the first 50 jets]


----------



## ejaz007

Owais said:


> I have a question here.
> why JF17 have G-Limit less than +9? even F7PG Hvae G-Limit of -3/+9g. some sources say that It does not have negative static ability



JF-17 has G Limit of +8.5/-3.


----------



## ejaz007

*Serial production of JF-17 aircraft to start soon, NA body told*

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) would soon start serial production of JF-17 Thunder in collaboration with China, Standing Committee of the National Assembly on Defence Production was informed on Thursday.

The committee, headed by Sheikh Aftab Ahmad, visited the PAC and was given a detailed briefing on the ongoing projects. PAC Chairman Air Marshal Khalid Chaudhry gave a detailed briefing on the projects, informing them that the PAC has set up the factory for initiating the serial aircrafts production. He said PAC had the capability to manufacture 75 percent of avionics and 58 percent of air-frame of the fighter aircraft.

About other projects being carried out by PAC, he said facility had been overhauling around 180 engines of various fighter jets and 60 aircraft a year. He also said the Mirage Rebuild Factory, which is a part of PAC has been rebuilding 35-year old Mirage aircraft, which were bought as scrap from various countries.

The chairman as well as members of the committee appreciated the work being carried out at PAC. They assured their full support to the management of PAC. app

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


----------



## Muradk

ANTIBODY said:


> jf17 has 8-8.5G capability probably because of the underpowered enjine and less than 1 thrust to weight ratio.. [only in the first 50 jets]



That is not how you tell weight to thrust ratio Son. And I don't think most people know the exact WTR of JF-17. its way above you think.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Muradk

raheelocelot said:


> The question is not how a UAV would fight against a fighter aircraft. The real threat would be on board jammers, early warning regarding the threat coming to UAVs in operation and Friendly assistance in the form of SAMs and aerial support. Nobody would leave a REAPER class UAV, unprotected...



Raheel I have a question for you. When you are on finals for landing and are about 5 miles away in a A-5. What call does a pilot give to ATC. Can you share that with us please.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## zavis2003

what would be next option for PAF in terms of an engine


----------



## jupiter2007

> 85 Mirages were upgraded to ROSE standard, all ex-RAAF & ex-Arme de Air, with 20 under ROSE II & the rest ROSE I. ROSE II machines have the DART FLIR in place of the Grifo M3. The other Mirages are too depreciated, with the possible exception of the Mirage 5PA3/PA2s & their two-seater versions in the Mirage 5DPA2.




Does anyone know how many Mirage iii/V were upgraded to Rose-2 standard and how many were upgraded to Rose-3 standard? and what kind of Radar and Avionics, ew suites does Rose-3 has? 

I have heard that ROSE-3 are upgraded with Italian FIAR Grifo 2000/16 Radar, has (ImIR) capability, ECM (Electronic Countermeasures), self-protection jamming pod, electronic reconnaissance pod, FILAT, Helmet-Mounted Sights, french avionics. Is this ture?



> Mirage ROSE-III that can carry out surgical strike missions using long-range glide bombs.



Is there a way to upgrade Mirage III/V with RD-93 engine? 

Here is the picture of Mirage III with Rose-3 upgrade.


----------



## hj786

Muradk said:


> Raheel I have a question for you. When you are on finals for landing and are about 5 miles away in a A-5. What call does a pilot give to ATC. Can you share that with us please.



Raheel you have just been called out!


----------



## mean_bird

Can someone please tell what exactly is the H-4 missile? and is it being used by the JF-17?

The news about it came in 2003 and there was a lot of confusion to what it actually is i.e whether a BVR or A2G. wiki (not the best source though) is reporting it to be a BVR.

H-4 BVR-AAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pak Air Force inducts BVR missiles-Pakistan-World-The Times of India

thanks


----------



## syedmobeenali

Asalam o alikum to all members,

I have question about our jet fighters inventory.As we know we haven't get our Upgraded f-16 and f-16 C/D block 52.Our Jf-17 is in testing process and we also haven't get FC-20's from china.We have mirage rose III and f-7pg in active condition and i think mirage is better than f-7.
Can our members tell us about Paf mirage's That how much upgraded,radar specification,Is it Bvr capable,which Bvr missile we have for mirage and how much range is of it?


----------



## batmannow

dear, sir
i guss differnt conditions, & different situation, makes best ! different ACs


----------



## syedmobeenali

batmannow said:


> dear, sir
> i guss differnt conditions, & different situation, makes best ! different ACs



well its right that who is behind the machine.I am asking about Mirage rose III avionics Specifications?


----------



## batmannow

syedmobeenali said:


> well its right that who is behind the machine.I am asking about Mirage rose III avionics Specifications?



syedmobeenali;sir
i am not a concerned person on the issue!
but i guss, Mirage rose III plus F-7 PGS were the best for me, i guss its not just a plane, when we are talking about PAF!
but its more about combinations, maybe many commrades dissagree with me , & there answer goes to F-16s, but Mirage & F-7s are the most flyed combo , of PAF.
SPECIALLY Mirage rose III ,plus 5 were the most oldest airwarriors , defending pakistan's aerospace!


----------



## arsalan shafique

according to the data i have the mirage 3 & F 7 are faster in speed than F 16 but turning rate of F 16 & its light weigth body gives it high muneuvers & PAF also mirages are old fighters without having any war experiences during the wars between IAF & PAF, as PAF only used its F 16s.


----------



## tamir

arsalan shafique said:


> according to the data i have the mirage 3 & F 7 are faster in speed than F 16 but turning rate of F 16 & its light weigth body gives it high muneuvers & PAF also mirages are old fighters without having any war experiences during the wars between IAF & PAF, as PAF only used its F 16s.



F-16s have not been used against the Indians. It is those "old" fighters that you are talking about that have seen action with India.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## syedmobeenali

batmannow said:


> syedmobeenali;sir
> i am not a concerned person on the issue!
> but i guss, Mirage rose III plus F-7 PGS were the best for me, i guss its not just a plane, when we are talking about PAF!
> but its more about combinations, maybe many commrades dissagree with me , & there answer goes to F-16s, but Mirage & F-7s are the most flyed combo , of PAF.
> SPECIALLY Mirage rose III ,plus 5 were the most oldest airwarriors , defending pakistan's aerospace!



according to your opinion Mirages & f-7 are best in Paf.We haven't got any information about our mirage that what's the avionics are installed in it,The radar (grifo M) range & specs.Are they bvr capable if it so which bvr we have for it.Is it from france or from others.


----------



## shehbazi2001

*Independent Power Supply for Air Defence Command and Air Bases*

Attack on power generation units or power stations or even dams or grid stations is a very likely scenario in a war. It has happened in almost all wars from the famous RAF "DAM BUSTER" raids on Germany of WW2 to attack on Iraqi power stations in first Gulf war.

The question that comes to mind in this scenario is "Are our air defence command centers dependent on external (WAPDA) electric power supply?" or they have their own power supply units or they have backup generators only.

The same applies to vital components of air bases like power supplies to aircraft shelters and technical/repair units of air base. Do they have independent/backup electric power generation system?

If there is no redundant/backup power supply system, our operations may come to a virtual halt in the event of power disconnection.


----------



## BATMAN

shehbazi2001 said:


> *Independent Power Supply for Air Defence Command and Air Bases*
> 
> Attack on power generation units or power stations or even damns or grid stations is a very likely scenario in a war. It has happened in almost all wars from the famous RAF "DAM BUSTER" raids on Germany of WW2 to attack on Iraqi power stations in first Gulf war.
> 
> The question that comes to mind in this scenario is "Are our air defence command centers dependent on external (WAPDA) electric power supply?" or they have their own power supply units or they have backup generators only.
> 
> The same applies to vital components of air bases like power supplies to aircraft shelters and technical/repair units of air base. Do they have independent/backup electric power generation system?
> 
> If there is no redundant/backup power supply system, our operations may come to a virtual halt in the event of power disconnection.



Well if that's the case than all defence forces of Pakistan, especially AF should switch to instruments, communications systems and auxilaries operated by DC supply and buy UPS for those devices which cannot be converted to DC.
Backup generators should be used to supply the battries of DC supply system.
This not only offer redundancy in supply system but also ensure uninterupted supply in simplified and reliable form.
In this way solar pannels can also be integrated in such system.


----------



## PAFAce

BATMAN said:


> In this way solar pannels can also be integrated in such system.



Solar panels are very inefficient in the conversion of solar energy into electrical. Also, solar energy is available for fixed durations in a day, if at all, depending on the season, location, altitute, weather etc. The best option in these cases is uninterruptible power supply (UPS) and backup generators. In nuclear power plants, UPS are used for the most valuable resources, and devices connected to UPS are usually Level I failure devices (required for complete core shutdown). Also, when most power plants fail, the plant becomes a consumer of electricity from the grid, which is being supplied by other generating stations.

In the long run, a distributed generation grid throughout the country is our best bet. The enemy will not be able to attack every single power generating station (throughout the country) as they are classified as Vurlerable Points and, therefore, are defended by the forces. The more distribution we have, the more energy we will be able to produce and the less vulnerable our forces will be to complete power shutdown. The development of more generating stations will also help the country in peace time, as we are currently facing an energy crisis.

Lastly, I don't see why converting to DC will make a difference. If anything, it is more difficult to transfer DC over larger distances. However, if necessary, that DC conversion can be accomplished indigenously using simple rectifier circuits or off the shelf converters, so modification of the equipment isn't really necessary. Maybe I midunderstood your point, so please forgive me if I have gone off topic.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## shehbazi2001

In the Indo-Pak wars, I dont know if any side attacked the power generation units but this scenario cant be discounted in future especially that now we have nuclear power stations too. 

These nuclear power stations, if attacked in operational or hot conditions, may cause immense damage to population and thus one must think many times before embarking on such a mission because even Israel attacked the Iraqi nuclear plant before its getting hot. 

But hydroelectric/thermal Power stations have no such problems and then we never know the intentions of aggressor or enemy. Allies wanted to completely cripple down the Iraqi military machine and thus they bombed the power stations.

Although we follow an Indo-reactive and Indo-centric defence policy, our defence mechanism should be optimised for countering just any aggressor. 

Thus we may induct weapon systems optimised for countering Indian aggression but our defence infrastructure should be shaped to counter any aggressor coming from anywhere and ensuring uninterrupted power supply to air defence centres, command and control centres and vital components of air bases is part of this.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## IceCold

shehbazi2001 said:


> In the Indo-Pak wars, I dont know if any side attacked the power generation units but this scenario cant be discounted in future especially that now we have nuclear power stations too.
> 
> *These nuclear power stations, if attacked in operational or hot conditions, may cause immense damage to population and thus one must think many times before embarking on such a mission because even Israel attacked the Iraqi nuclear plant before its getting hot. *
> 
> But hydroelectric/thermal Power stations have no such problems and then we never know the intentions of aggressor or enemy. Allies wanted to completely cripple down the Iraqi military machine and thus they bombed the power stations.
> 
> Although we follow an Indo-reactive and Indo-centric defence policy, our defence mechanism should be optimised for countering just any aggressor.
> 
> Thus we may induct weapon systems optimised for countering Indian aggression but our defence infrastructure should be shaped to counter any aggressor coming from anywhere and ensuring uninterrupted power supply to air defence centres, command and control centres and vital components of air bases is part of this.



So one cannot predict what enemy might strike on, however for the highlighted part, if a nuclear power plant that is hot is attacked if i understand your post correctly means will be something like a nuclear bomb because of the nuclear radiation and the amount of harm that it will bring about to almost anything population, plants, water atmosphere, so what will be our response?
Will it be a nuclear response or perhaps something on the same lines meaning attacking Indian nuclear installations?


----------



## shehbazi2001

IceCold said:


> So one cannot predict what enemy might strike on, however for the highlighted part, if a nuclear power plant that is hot is attacked if i understand your post correctly means will be something like a nuclear bomb because of the nuclear radiation and the amount of harm that it will bring about to almost anything population, plants, water atmosphere, so what will be our response?
> Will it be a nuclear response or perhaps something on the same lines meaning attacking Indian nuclear installations?




The attack on a hot nuclear power plant may resemble a nuclear strike at the maxima and may resemble a nuclear accident at the minima.

The nuclear accidents like Chernobyl in Soviet Union and Three Mile Island in USA caused tremendous release of radioactivity, which has severe long lasting health problems like cancer etc. If the attack causes a massive explosion, then we can expect greater instantaneous losses of life.

For response, I think a tit for tat response shall fit in.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Patriot

As far as i know Pakistan and India signed treaty to not attack their nuclear reactors during war time and also shared the locations of their nuclear reactors!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## PAFAce

shehbazi2001 said:


> But hydroelectric/thermal Power stations have no such problems and then we never know the intentions of aggressor or enemy.



In case of war, nuclear powerplants will be used for minimum energy and we will be able to initiate critical shutdown immediately upon news of an enemy raid. If an attack takes place after proper shutdown, the effects may be quite minimum.

Hydroelectric plants are just as dangerous when they are not running because a damaged dam will almost cerainly break immediately, giving little time to those downstream to evacuate. Many lives will be lost. I was born in Wah Cantt, and my father always told me that one of the biggest threats facing the town in war was the dam not too far awar.

Therefore, once again I conclude that the answer to Pakistan's peacetime and wartime energy issues lies in a distributed and well planned energy grid making use of as many natural/sustainable resources as possible. These include hydro, nuclear, and even geothermal (vast coastline of Sindh and Balochistan). I have been planning to write a paper onthis very subject, but have not found the time.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## zavis2003

Durin war all should prepare themselves for the bad things and nothing gonna prevent from NUKES uses, coz nuclear strikes would be cariied out on the basis of intellegence
and if india or pak got rong intelligence that we r under attack of nukes in min than u knows what would the authoritatives decide. Simply atomic war
It is much easily to convert a conventional war btween the two
coz no one trust on other
both found each other first enemy
there are nosoft corner in our heart for indians atleast not in my heart
and same is the case with indians


----------



## mean_bird

saadahmed said:


> As far as i know Pakistan and India signed treaty to not attack their nuclear reactors during war time and also shared the locations of their nuclear reactors!



Yes, but when the going gets tough little can be said about any such agreement. If there is always a possibility of nuking the other country, what makes you think the reactors would be spared.

Such treaty will only hold in a "light combat" where no major loss is suffered by either opponent. Also remember, list of nuclear reactors shared are 'civilian'.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BATMAN

PAFAce said:


> Solar panels are very inefficient in the conversion of solar energy into electrical.


So by not making use of solar energy we are not improving any efficiency.
I said they *can be incorporated *to increase independence.


> Also, solar energy is available for fixed durations in a day, if at all, depending on the season, location, altitute, weather etc.


I'm sorry that I used the word solar panels, I should have said solar electric system, which includes battery banks which continue to supply electricity during night as well. In Pakistan we always have enough light during the day to keep the battries fully charged.


> The best option in these cases is uninterruptible power supply (UPS) and backup generators.


No, better option is to use backup generators and large battery banks as a source of DC Supply instead of using AC supply UPS.
There are lot of complications associated with DC to AC conversion.
One is that you not only need to oversize ur generators because of harmonics but insulation also tends to fail more rapidly. Complications increase as you increase power.
DC systems will be 10 times more reliable. There are more practical, technical and ecnomical reasons.


> In nuclear power plants, UPS are used for the most valuable resources, and devices connected to UPS are usually Level I failure devices (required for complete core shutdown).


Battery systems will also be Uninterupted Power Supply source.
Why they use UPS is because they have AC machines but I said convert your machines to DC or buy DC operated machines. DC lights (LED) consume 10 times less energy than present day energy saver lights.
In my house 2 watt DC LED light give me same as 11 watt energy saver.


> Also, when most power plants fail, the plant becomes a consumer of electricity from the grid, which is being supplied by other generating stations.


 Load of auxilaries depend on type of power plant.
Normally power plants have blackout generators to run their auxilaries.
When main generators fail they are disconnected from grid in no time.


> In the long run, a distributed generation grid throughout the country is our best bet.





> The enemy will not be able to attack every single power generating station (throughout the country) as they are classified as Vurlerable Points and, therefore, are defended by the forces. The more distribution we have, the more energy we will be able to produce and the less vulnerable our forces will be to complete power shutdown. The development of more generating stations will also help the country in peace time, as we are currently facing an energy crisis.



Are you reffering to ring type distribution network system?
But we need to have power plants distributed across the state, hydal power plants transmit energy to longer distances and hence any damge can result in major blackout.
We definately need more power generation but I'm deadly agaist oil fired power plants where as we have natural dams and water flowing in rivers.
Than comes coal and oil should be the last solution.



> Lastly, I don't see why converting to DC will make a difference. If anything, it is more difficult to transfer DC over larger distances.


It depends how long you need to transmitt. If you are talking of couple of hundred than it is no problem infect the size of conductor is reduced.
But we are talking here for Airbase as an island situation whose radius will be within 50 km.


> However, if necessary, that DC conversion can be accomplished indigenously using simple rectifier circuits or off the shelf converters, so modification of the equipment isn't really necessary. Maybe I midunderstood your point, so please forgive me if I have gone off topic.


This is exactly my point the DC conversion is much simpler and more reliable solution for the instruments and auxilaries of military bases.
UPS should be used where DC operated equipment isnot available.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PAFAce

BATMAN said:


> So by not making use of solar energy we are not improving any efficiency.
> I said they *can be incorporated *to increase independence.
> 
> I'm sorry that I used the word solar panels, I should have said solar electric system, which includes battery banks which continue to supply electricity during night as well. In Pakistan we always have enough light during the day to keep the battries fully charged.
> 
> No, better option is to use backup generators and large battery banks as a source of DC Supply instead of using AC supply UPS.
> There are lot of complications associated with DC to AC conversion.
> One is that you not only need to oversize ur generators because of harmonics but insulation also tends to fail more rapidly. Complications increase as you increase power.
> DC systems will be 10 times more reliable. There are more practical, technical and ecnomical reasons.
> 
> Battery systems will also be Uninterupted Power Supply source.
> Why they use UPS is because they have AC machines but I said convert your machines to DC or buy DC operated machines. DC lights (LED) consume 10 times less energy than present day energy saver lights.
> In my house 2 watt DC LED light give me same as 11 watt energy saver.
> Load of auxilaries depend on type of power plant.
> Normally power plants have blackout generators to run their auxilaries.
> When main generators fail they are disconnected from grid in no time.
> 
> Are you reffering to ring type distribution network system?
> But we need to have power plants distributed across the state, hydal power plants transmit energy to longer distances and hence any damge can result in major blackout.
> We definately need more power generation but I'm deadly agaist oil fired power plants where as we have natural dams and water flowing in rivers.
> Than comes coal and oil should be the last solution.
> 
> It depends how long you need to transmitt. If you are talking of couple of hundred than it is no problem infect the size of conductor is reduced.
> But we are talking here for Airbase as an island situation whose radius will be within 50 km.
> 
> This is exactly my point the DC conversion is much simpler and more reliable solution for the instruments and auxilaries of military bases.
> UPS should be used where DC operated equipment isnot available.



Thanks for the detailed explanation. I had misunderstood your original point. I, too, am against coal-fired or oil-fired power plants, mainly because they are the cause of our current energy crisis and because we will never be completely self-sufficient until we stop buyng oil and coal. Pakistan has vast resources in hydro, and we have a long coastline off Sindh and Balochistan which can be used to harness geothermal energy. The mountainous regions can also be home to large-scale wind-power plants. Also, if we distribute generation over a larger area and produce _more_ energy than we consume, we could not only avoid large-scale blackouts in case of an attack but could also store some of that energy for critical use. However, as you may know, there is no efficient way of storing lots of excess energy today and every type of power generation has its drawbacks. Hydro distrupts the flow of water and damages local ecosystems, geothermal is expensive to build and also has other issues etc.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hj786

Regarding the coal fired power plants, I read somewhere that Pakistan has lots of coal reserves (recently discovered I think). Why can't these be utilised by building modern coal-fired powerplants that are more efficient and less polluting (through use of gas scrubbers for example) than old plants? Surely this would benefit the economy as well as the power grid, the coal mining operations would give employment to many unskilled people. Of course full reliance on coal is a bad idea and it should be treated as a short term solution.

Not to go off the topic, anybody have the latest info on the refuellers, Erieyes and number of JF-17 in Pakistan?


----------



## santa cruz slugg

This may sound stupid but do the Eyeries have air-refueling capabilities or would they have to land and refuel. Also when are the JF-17's expected to get IOC b/c i thought the 8 that were delivered were to be used to integrate weapons and other systems. 
Thanks!


----------



## Arsalan

santa cruz slugg said:


> This may sound stupid but do the Eyeries have air-refueling capabilities or would they have to land and refuel. Also when are the JF-17's expected to get IOC b/c i thought the 8 that were delivered were to be used to integrate weapons and other systems.
> Thanks!




about the eyeries refueling part i dont think they need one as there flying time is already good enoug, but i dont know the exact answer to you question,

as per the JF17 status, yes the current fleet of 10 is being used to integrate weapons and are actually in evaluation phase, they may be particularly being evaluated for ground support role as they first squadrons are said to be replacing the A5 land attack squadrons, some are under production and it is stated the the first squadron of the JF17 comprising of 18~19 aircrafts will be operational by the first quarter of 2009 that means by march-april,,,so it may well be COMMING SOON,

i would love to see these birds flying, fully operational by April!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## santa cruz slugg

How many plants are producing the JF-17? If its just one like it is for many aircraft that seems like an awful lot of aircraft to be churned out so quickly. Im going to assume that the were partially assembled kits from the Chengdu factory that's how 18 aircraft will be built so quickly.


----------



## Neo

There's a new plant built at PAC Kamra for the production of JF-17 with the capacity of 20-25 aircraft per annum.

​
*Manufacturing of JF-17 Thunder Sub-Assemblies Commence at PAC, Kamra
22 January, 2008 ​*
Inaugural Ceremony to launch the manufacturing of JF-17 Thunder sub-Assemblies was held today at PAC Kamra. Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was the chief guest on this historical occasion. The ceremony commemorates yet another milestone in the Pakistan China Military Cooperation.

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, Chief of the Air Staff, speaking on the occasion said I am committed to ensuring that PAC quickly gears up its resources to take up its share of co-production. I am looking forward to achieving, within one year, a capability of producing 15 JF-17 aircraft annually. This would then have to be enhanced to 20-25 aircraft in 2-3 years time. I am also looking forward to the establishment of the first JF-17 Operational Conversion Unit in PAF by the end of this year. He also said, I would like to remind every one _ especially, the personnel of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex_of the challenge and promise of success that lie ahead, as you embark upon the coveted goal of manufacturing. Not many people are afforded an opportunity to be part of the major and prestigious national programme such as the JF-17 Thunder aircraft. It is for you to seize the opportunity and make your nation proud. He further said, I take pride in this joint venture between the Peoples Republic of China and the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

The JF-17 Thunder project clearly envisages co-production of the aircraft both in China and Pakistan. The objective of setting up of JF-17 production facilities at PAC Kamra is not only to enhance the PAFs operational capability at affordable price but also create employment opportunities for about 5000 people. In line with the original plan, the manufacturing of sub-assemblies for the JF-17 Thunder is being launched at PAC Kamra on 22 January, 2008. This would, indeed, be a red letter day in the history of PAC. The production of sub-assemblies would be, subsequently, expanded to encompass the parts manufacturing, final assembly and flight testing. Fighter aircraft manufacturing, which was once a closely guarded realm of developed countries only, is now well within our reach. The success, today, stands on the foundations of the perseverance of our pilots, engineers and technicians and their Chinese counterparts. The landmark achievement is not only a source of pride for the Pakistani nation but also a measure of rare distinction for the country to have joined a select group of nations having indigenous fighter aircraft production capability.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## fatman17

*I am also looking forward to the establishment of the first JF-17 Operational Conversion Unit in PAF by the end of this year.&#8221; *

first OCU by end of 2009 but no mention of the first re-equipment of one of the A-5 sqdns (16 or 26) by the end of april 2009 (as mentioned in the ACMs interview to AFM).


----------



## MZUBAIR

Deat All,

I want to know about Mirrage ROSE upgrade process?
Its current status?
and do you think after upgradation how much and how many of these birds can be put equal to the 4th and 4.5th generations eagles?
and How long these birds can serve Pakistan?


----------



## TruthSeeker

This is misplaced here as a new member introduction thread. But Welcome!!


----------



## MZUBAIR

Deat All,

I want to know about Mirrage ROSE upgrade process?
Its current status?
and do you think after upgradation how much and how many of these birds can be put equal to the 4th and 4.5th generations eagles?
and How long these birds can serve Pakistan?


----------



## MZUBAIR

Sorry 
Now I put it on "Military Forum "


----------



## MZUBAIR

Deat All,

I want to know about Mirrage ROSE upgrade process?
Its current status?
and do you think after upgradation how much and how many of these birds can be put equal to the 4th and 4.5th generations eagles?
and How long these birds can serve Pakistan?


----------



## MastanKhan

hj786 said:


> Regarding the coal fired power plants, I read somewhere that Pakistan has lots of coal reserves (recently discovered I think). Why can't these be utilised by building modern coal-fired powerplants that are more efficient and less polluting (through use of gas scrubbers for example) than old plants? Surely this would benefit the economy as well as the power grid, the coal mining operations would give employment to many unskilled people. Of course full reliance on coal is a bad idea and it should be treated as a short term solution.
> 
> Not to go off the topic, anybody have the latest info on the refuellers, Erieyes and number of JF-17 in Pakistan?




Hi,

Off topic----

I believe that thar coal was either discovered or worked by the germans. I can be corrected---the germans offered to develop the field---process coal to "coal gas" and use it for power generation. The german had the most experience in this field----but the pakistanis----we took it from the hands of victory and put it into the jaws of defeat---the project was re-negotiated---chinese got involved---the germans got sidelined and kicked out---chinese came in---they didnot have any experience----they just wanted a piece of the pie.

Thar coal project is just a black hole in pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MZUBAIR

Deat All,

I want to know about Mirrage ROSE upgrade process?
Its current status?
and do you think after upgradation how much and how many of these birds can be put equal to the 4th and 4.5th generations eagles?
and How long these birds can serve Pakistan?


----------



## santa cruz slugg

> and do you think after upgradation how much and how many of these birds can be put equal to the 4th and 4.5th generations eagles?
> and How long these birds can serve Pakistan?


 I don't know how many of the Mirages are being upgraded but they should be upgraded to 4th generation status. They can't become 4.5 gen aircraft, but it doesn't mean that they won't be potent. They should serve another 10-15+ years with the Pakistani air force.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MZUBAIR

Thanxs Santa


----------



## hj786

ROSE Mirages are fairly advanced 3rd gen combat jets. Got some links for ROSE info:
Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info
Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

Also, this article on Mirage ROSE (Retrofit Of Strike Element) upgrade program was posted on the forum by M Ahmed:

The avionics upgrade project named the 'Retrofit of Strike Element' (ROSE was conceived in 1992 and commenced effectually from April 1995. The avionics package included Inertial Navigation System, Head Up Display, Airborne Video Tape Recording System, and self protection systems like RWR, Chaff and Flares. A modern airborne radar, the Griffo-M was also retorfitted. When the Americans released 360 AIM-9L missiles under the Brown Amendment, it was decided that the Mirages being upgraded and equipped with the Griffo-M radar must also be made capable of carrying the AIM-9L missiles. The hardware modification of this project had been completed, but its software was under development. The SAGEM company, which was carrying out the upgradation of the Mirages, had developed their own Forward Looking Infra Red (FLIR) Pod. They needed to carry out the proto-typing of this equipment on an aircraft, free of cost, so that if found fit, the PAF could buy them. FLIR modification on these aircraft was also in progress.

Of the forty-five aircraft eventually recovered at PAC Kamra, there were seven dual-seat models that were allotted to No. 5 Squadron. Out of the forty-two single-seat Mirages, thirty-two with ROSE configuration, were allotted to No. 7 and CCS Squadrons. Four aircraft belonging to Photo Reconnaissance category and an additional aircraft were recovered and allotted to the No. 5 Squadron. One aircraft crahsed prior to ROSE modification and the remaininf five aircraft were found beyond recovery and were reduced to spares.


In the second half of 1992, the PAF had a genuine concern over the gap that would be created by the phasing out of the A-5s in 1997. After considering various courses, the purchase and re-lifting of some used Mirages seemed a practical option. The sources included Belgium, Spain, France, Lebanon and Zaire. In 1995, the planners at Air Headquarters established an operational requirement for at least fifty such aircraft. On the directive of the CAS, the feasibility of a package of forty Mirages was validated and the case for allocation of funds was taken up. The government released the necessary funds.

In order to reliably assess the physical condition of these Mirages, a PAF team visited Spain, France and Lebanon, while the Air Attache in Paris was asked to inspect the Belgian aircraft. During their visits, the team inspected seventy-one Mirages and submitted their report. Similarly, the Defence and Technical Attache in Paris inspected twenty-five aircraft from SABCA, Belgium.

On 25 May, 1995, after a post visit presentation to the Air Board, the CAS approved the formation of a project team to manage all aspects related to a cost effective induction of about forty Mirages in the PAF fleet. These aircraft were to be of a single varient, capable of a surface attack role, not exceeding a total cost of $120 million, and were to form two viable and homogenous squadrons, fully suportable with the PAF maintenance resources and infrastructure.

The project team obtained proposals for the intended purchase of Mirages from all the potential vendors, and simultaneously launched a market study. The PAF's own overhauling experiences in Kamra were kept in view to work out the expected costs of each aircraft and the related project. During a visit to France in 1995, the project team was pleasantly surprised to learn that forty Mirage Vs and about forty Mirage IIIs of the French Air Force were available for sale at quite a reasonable price. The French Mirage V suited the PAF requirement because of its longer range and additional payload. Later, through various coordination meeting in Pakistan, the PAF and AIRCO worked out a detailed proposal which included the required statement of work. Representatives from the French DGA and the French Air Force accompanied the AIRCO team, to demostrate their full support to the PAF-AIRCO agreements and obligations.

SAGEM is a French company that has Defence and Security Division as one of its main branches. In this division, SAGEM specializes in three specific categories, i.e. inertial navigation, electro-optic equipment, and system integration. In Project ROSE, the PAF was already acquiring thirty-six Mirages upgraded by SAGEM through their inertial navigation and system integration departments. In August 1995, SAGEM combined their upgrade skills with the potential sales opportunity, and proposed to the PAF a package deal of forty Mirages at a quoted cost of $150 million.

As the SAGEM proposal became more and more attractive and feasible, the PAF negotiated a further reduction in costs so that they actually fell into its feasibility regime. Through numerous discussions, SAGEM came up with a revised proposal of $124 million in November 1995. According to this proposal, the package was to consist of thirty-four Mirage Vs and six dual-seat Mirage IIIs, making a total of forty fully overhauled aircraft. Out of the forty aircraft, twenty Mirage Vs would be mordanized to the ROSE-II standards (ROSE-II modification is the same as ROSE-I, except the Griffo-M radar is replaced by FLIR). The engines installed on the aircraft would have a minimum life of four years and 300 hours. The package would also include the required ground support, alternate mission equipment, and line replaceable units. Besides, the kits for RWR, CFD and GPS would be installed in all aircraft.

Keeping in view the overall SAGEM package vis-a-vis quoted prices, the offer appeared quite viable to the PAF. According to a conservative estimate, the cost of this package should have been atleast $146 million. On 27 December 1995, the PAF gave the go ahead, and the contract for the forty Mirages was signed on 1 February 1996 for a total amount of 118 million.

This deal had become somewhat controversial mainly due to the misreporting of the press. The PAF preferred to have the necessary modifications done in France because PAC Kamra was, during that time frame, already busy overhauling the PAF's Mirages. Accepting any additional work would have unnecessarily deplayed the delivery of the French Mirages to the PAF wothout making any difference in cost.

SAGEM encountered problems on purchase of spares which they needed for the timely and efficient running of their work. Thus the programme suffered delays during most of 1997 and 1998. However, the company managed to get the first batch ready by September 1998, when PAF pilots ferried across eight Mirages on 22 September 1998. A second batch of eight was recieved in 1999 while the third batch of eight came to Pakistan on 22 June 2000. The deliveries of the rest were supposed to be completed by the end of the year 2000. ​
Another thing I found, Air Weapons Complex makes an Infra-Red Search and Track system for Mirages:
Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mean_bird

*PAFs capabilities to be enhanced, says Gilani*



> ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani on Wednesday assured the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) that the government would provide all necessary resources for enhancing PAFs professional capabilities.
> 
> The prime minister gave this assurance while talking to the Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmad, who called on him here at the PM House.Gilani said the PAF had always played an important role in the defence of the country in addition to providing vital support to the civil administration in relief and rehabilitation efforts during natural calamities. During the meeting, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood apprised the prime minister of various measures taken by the PAF to optimise its effectiveness and efficiency.
> 
> He also informed the prime minister about the ongoing projects for upgrading the PAF. APP adds: Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani directed Pakistans ambassador designate to the Netherlands to focus on improving Pakistans bilateral relations. Talking to ambassador-designate Aizaz Ahmad Chaudhry, who called on him on Wednesday before leaving on his new assignment, Gilani directed him to try to seek the inclusion of the Netherlands in the Friends of Democratic Pakistan Group.
> 
> The prime minister noted that the ambassador designate had been working as a focal person for the group that had been meeting to prepare for the Donors Conference, likely to be held in Tokyo next month. Gilani noted that the Netherlands had emerged as the fourth largest investor and the fifth major buyer of Pakistans products in the EU during the last fiscal year.
> 
> He appreciated that the Netherlands had more than doubled its development assistance for Pakistan after the induction of the new democratic government, which it had suspended after imposition of emergency in 2007.
> 
> He underlined the importance of high-level exchanges for strengthening the Pakistan-Netherlands ties and hoped that special efforts would be made during the tenure of the ambassador designate to promote people-to-people contacts.
> 
> PAFs capabilities to be enhanced, says Gilani



I didn't see a thread about PAF discussion and didnt want to open a new one so decided to put this here.

Does anyone else feels that ACM Tanvir Mahmood has been meeting PM or president very often of late? like on a weekly or fortnightly basis? Sounds unusual to me. I know of the Mumbai drama and all that, but I see the meetings unusual.
And now Zardari will be in China from Feb 20. Could we hear some news about FC-20s?


----------



## Hasnain2009

If Zardari will be in china after 20feb, he will not ask abt FC-20, he will ask for rokhra(money)!!


----------



## ejaz007

Hasnain2009 said:


> If Zardari will be in china after 20feb, he will not ask abt FC-20, he will ask for rokhra(money)!!



Government approved purchase of FC-20 in 2007. It is supposed to be delivered in 2009-2010. Do some research before posting.


----------



## Hasnain2009

ejaz007 said:


> Government approved purchase of FC-20 in 2007. It is supposed to be delivered in 2009-2010. Do some research before posting.



No bro! We are not buying J-10a's, we are buying J10b, and J-10b is not yet officially completed!! And no order have been inked!!!


----------



## PAFAce

Hasnain2009 said:


> We are not buying J-10a's, we are buying J10b



Are you sure about this? The J-10B, like you said, is still under development. We are supposed to have our FC-20s soon (by the end of this year, I believe). It seems a little far fetched to expect the Chinese to sell you a plane that they themselves have not yet finished and inducted.

More and more I'm starting to think that the first 36 FC-20s might be regular old J-10A upgrades. But I hope I am wrong.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mean_bird

PAFAce said:


> Are you sure about this? The J-10B, like you said, is still under development. We are supposed to have our FC-20s soon (by the end of this year, I believe). It seems a little far fetched to expect the Chinese to sell you a plane that they themselves have not yet finished and inducted.
> 
> More and more I'm starting to think that the first 36 FC-20s might be regular old J-10A upgrades. But I hope I am wrong.




The ACM said that an agreement would be inked in the next 12 months...that means an agreement would be reached this year...but when the planes start arriving will take much longer.

Besides, what's it that much that the J10b will have that the J10a won't? Especially if we will be going with western avionics and radars and weapons? The only things that would/could be missing, as I feel it , is a DSI and TVC and those are just possibilities not confirmed. 

I think most of our JF-17s would be cost effective, numerical additives, but at least one or two batches will go for top-of-the-line gadgets....and it would make all the more sense if our gadgets for that advanced batch of JF-17 and J-10 be similar for logistics reason.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

can someone please dig out the JF-17 picture in hanger it was posted in this forum..


----------



## showstopper

Has anyone heard of different variations of the JF-17? Considering that it's going to form the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force, could a strike/bomber/attack version be in the works? Mabye similar to the F-15 vs. F-15E?


----------



## mean_bird

according to SDF, an attack version is being focused on right now particularly as it is an interest of PLAAF.


----------



## showstopper

thanks! and on a related note, how does one thank someone in this forum? i see a detail below people's profile that says "thanked x times in y posts," but have no idea how to thank someone "properly."


----------



## Zob

ok firstly our ACM is leaving by the end of next month sorry infact by the 10th of March....so yes he is meeting e is meeting the President and Prime minster regularly...secondly no contract has been inked regarding the J10s period so no we r not getting any by next year or whatever... let us ink a contract and wait 2 years for them to come through....thank you...and yes for thanking someone u go to the persons posts look down on the right side and click thanks.....and now can someone tell me how i can change my avatar...?


----------



## mean_bird

showstopper said:


> thanks! and on a related note, how does one thank someone in this forum? i see a detail below people's profile that says "thanked x times in y posts," but have no idea how to thank someone "properly."



there is a button on the right hand side of ever post labeled 'thanks' (with a thumbs up icon)


----------



## Hasnain2009

Zob said:


> now can someone tell me how i can change my avatar...?



Go to "User CP" Which is on the top left of the page, then it display a list on left side, choose "Edit Avatar" that link and change your avatar!!
Thanks!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## showstopper

thanks everyone.


----------



## showstopper

wait. i don't think i get it. please pardon my apparant thickheadedness.


----------



## Manticore

what is the recent state of f16 block 52 delivery to paf... has u.s turned it down ?


----------



## zombie:-)

ANTIBODY said:


> what is the recent state of f16 block 52 delivery to paf... has u.s turned it down ?



yes there are reports of it on other threads on this forum


----------



## MZUBAIR

zombie:-) said:


> yes there are reports of it on other threads on this forum



Reference Please

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SSGPA1

Why Israel shut down it's LAVI project?

I think Lavi was initiated to transfer the latest know how to China at substantial cost.

Israel knew that lobbies in the US would never let them become a competitor in fighter jet manufacturing so they started the project and under anticipated pressure they stopped the project.

In order to recover the cost, Isrealis utilized their lobbying muscles in the US and convinced all players that it is okay to sell this technology to China because it is not advanced.

Israeli AF was going after F-35 JSF therefore it is not a loss for them in any ways. In addition they made a great deal of money and an improved relationship with China.

Jews know how to make money


----------



## qsaark

Is there a proof that Lavi designs were sold to China? As far as my understanding goes, LAVI project was not shelved because of the US pressure (I live in US and know all too well who presurrises whom) but because it was financially not feasible to go ahead with that project. Besides, you want to have your own Fighters if there is a fear of an embargo (they always had such fears from France and Britain). Israel has no such fears from US. Also important to remeber is, to get the most advanced fighters from US, they dont even have to pay. The fact of the matter is, US actually helped financing the LAVI. The total cost for the development and production of the Lavi was around US$6.4 billion in 1983, of which around 60&#37; was funded by the United States and 40% by the Israeli government. One of the major reason besides the availability of the realiable and superior aircrafts (F-16s/F-15s) of the cancellation was the final cost. Some community welfare organizations in Israel also blasted the spending associated with the Lavi as a bottomless pit, and contrasted it with dwindling expenditure on health and education.

Lavi was incepted primarily for the close air support (CAS) and battlefield air interdiction (BAI) mission with a secondary air-defense mission as a potential replacement for A-4s, F-4s and Kafir C-2. People try to compare LAVI with F-16 which is not a good comparison. The Lavi was rather smaller and lighter, with a less powerful powerplant, and a lower thrust-to-weight ratio. Even though on paper, the Lavi was becoming similar (not exactly alike) to the F-16 and F-18 (as per Israeli sources). In reality, however, Israel possessed neither the technology nor the capital required for such a project. This is basically a BS that IAI Lavi was an indigenous effort of Israel. It was not, actually the whole program was relying heavily on the US assistance. Even if the program was not cancelled, in actuality Lavi was going to be an American fighter made in Israel. And that was the reason why so many US companies got upset about the whole idea. Export of Lavi is another matter (which most Israelis claim to be the major reason of the cancellation). Owing to such high investment (both capital and technological) US could always ask Israel not to export the Lavi but to keep it for Israeli defence forces or to sell it only to the 'US approved' foreign customers. Afterall, US sold its F-16s, F-18s, F-15s to several countries. Besides, Israel didn't have the required infrastructure in place to manufacture the large number of aircrafts for the export market. So I dont think that IAI Lavi was posing a real threat to the sales of the US warplanes.


----------



## Patriot

Yeah, from what i've heard Israel halted the project because of US pressure.


----------



## Rehmat

saadahmed said:


> Yeah, from what i've heard Israel halted the project because of US pressure.


What pressure? Have you not heard Sharon - _I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it _Ariel Sharon to Shimon Peres, October 3rd, 2001, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

Furthermore, more tha half of Obama's administration consists of dual citizen Jews and pro-Israel Zionists.


----------



## PeaceForAll

First Generation Fighters (circa 1945 to 1955)

The first generation of fighters probably consists of those that appeared at the beginning of the Jet Age, starting late in World War II up through the Korean War. These planes were the first to be powered by turbojet engines, but were otherwise largely similar in capability to the older piston-engined fighter they replaced. These early jet engines were limited in thrust such that the fighters could not typically operate above the speed of sound. These first generation fighters were not often equipped with radar. Their armaments also generally consisted of older technologies like conventional guns, dumb bombs, and rockets since guided missiles were still largely experimental.

First generation fighters: MiG-15 and F-86 Sabre
First generation fighters: MiG-15 and F-86 Sabre

Perhaps the most representative fighters of that era are the F-86 Sabre and MiG-15, the two planes that fought most fiercely over the skies of Korea. Other fighters in this generation include:

Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe
Heinkel He 162 Salamander
Messershmitt Me 162 Komet
Gloster Meteor
de Havilland Vampire
de Havilland Venom
Hawker Siddeley/Armstrong Whitworth Sea Hawk
Supermarine Attacker
Supermarine Swift
Lockheed P-80 (F-80) Shooting Star
Republic F-84 Thunderjet / Thunderstreak
North American F-86 Sabre
Northrop F-89 Scorpion
Lockheed F-94 Starfire
McDonnell FH-1 Phantom
Vought F6U Pirate
Vought F7U Cutlass
North American FJ (F-1) Fury
McDonnell F2H (F-2) Banshee
McDonnell F3H (F-3) Demon
Douglas F4D (F-6) Skyray
Grumman F9F (F-9) Panther / Cougar
Douglas F3D (F-10) Skyknight
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-15
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-17
Lavochkin La-15
Yakovlev Yak-15
Yakovlev Yak-17
Yakovlev Yak-23
Dassault Ouragan
Dassault Mystère
Saab J21R
Saab J29
Saab Lansen
Avro Canada CF-100 Canuck

Second Generation Fighters (circa 1955 to 1960)

The factors that most epitomized fighters of the second generation were higher speed, radar, and use of the first guided air-to-air missiles. Many of these aircraft incorporated lessons learned in Korea to improve overall performance and combat effectiveness. These aircraft were the first fighters capable of maintaining supersonic speeds in level flight. Their designs also took advantage of new electronics technologies making radar small enough to be carried aboard. Similarly, advances in guided missile development allowed this new weapon to begin replacing the gun as the primary offensive weapon for the first time in fighter history.

Second generation fighters: The Century Series
Second generation fighters: The Century Series (F-100, F-101, F-102, F-104)

Best representing this class of fighters is the American "Century Series." Other members of the second generation include:

North American F-100 Super Sabre
McDonnell F-101 Voodoo
Convair F-102 Delta Dagger
Lockheed F-104 Starfighter
Republic F-105 Thunderchief
Convair F-106 Delta Dart
Vought F8U (F-8) Crusader
Grumman F11F (F-11) Tiger
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-19
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-21
Sukhoi Su-9 / Su-11
Yakovlev Yak-25
BAC Lightning
de Havilland Sea Vixen
Gloster Javelin
Hawker Hunter
Supermarine Scimitar
Dassault Etendard
Dassault Mirage III
Saab Draken

Third Generation Fighters (circa 1960 to 1970)

Many of the fighters of the third generation were those that served in the Vietnam War, particularly in the latter stages of the conflict. Most of these planes were the first to be designed specifically as multi-purpose fighters capable of performing both air defense and ground attack missions.

Third generation fighter: F-4 Phantom II
Third generation fighter: F-4 Phantom II

Perhaps the best representative of this generation of fighters is the F-4 Phantom II, which entered service not only with the US Navy, Marines, and Air Force, but also with a number of foreign militaries. Other examples of third generation fighters include:

McDonnell Douglas F4H (F-4) Phantom II
Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter / Tiger II
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-23
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-25
Sukhoi Su-15
Sukhoi Su-17/20/22
Tupolev Tu-28P
Yakovlev Yak-28
British Aerospace Harrier
Dassault Mirage F.1
Dassault Super Etendard
Shenyang J-8II

Fourth Generation Fighters (circa 1970 to 1990)

The next generation continued the trend towards multi-role fighters equipped with increasingly sophisticated avionics and weapon systems. These fighters also began emphasizing maneuverability rather than speed to succeed in air-to-air combat.

Fourth generation fighters: F-16s in formation with a MiG-29
Fourth generation fighters: F-16s in formation with a MiG-29

Good representatives of this class of fighter include the American F-16 and Soviet MiG-29. Other members of the fourth generation include:

Grumman F-14 Tomcat
McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle
General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon
McDonnell Douglas F-18 Hornet
McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-29
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-31
Sukhoi Su-27
Yakovlev Yak-38
Panavia Tornado
Dassault Mirage 2000
Saab Viggen
Mitsubishi F-2
AIDC Ching-Kuo
Chengdu J-10
Hindustan LCA

4.5 Generation Fighters (circa 1990 to 2000)

The term "4.5 generation" is also sometimes seen refering to more recent fourth generation fighters. These aircraft are generally seen as retaining the same basic characteristics of fourth generation planes but with enhanced capabilities provided by more advanced technologies that might be seen in fifth generation fighters. Good examples are the F-18 Super Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon, and Dassault Rafale. All three make use of advanced avionics to improve mission capability and limited stealth characteristics to reduce visibility when compared to older fourth generation aircraft. However, none is considered advanced enough to be classified as a fifth generation fighter (though arguments can be made for the Typhoon and perhaps the Rafale).

4.5 generation fighter: F-18 Super Hornet
4.5 generation fighter: F-18 Super Hornet

Other members of this generation include:

Boeing F-18E/F Super Hornet
Sukhoi Su-30
Sukhoi Su-33
Sukhoi Su-35
Eurofighter Typhoon
Saab Gripen
Dassault Rafale

Fifth Generation Fighters (circa 2000 to ?)

The technologies that best epitomize fifth generation fighters are advanced integrated avionics systems that provide the pilot with a complete picture of the battlespace and the use of low observable "stealth" techniques. The F-22 and F-35 are the only fifth generation fighters developed to date, but Russia hopes that technologies being created by the Mikoyan Gurevich MFI and Sukhoi Su-47 may make them competitors in that market.

Fifth generation fighter: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
Fifth generation fighter: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

It only seems logical to name the F-35 as the ultimate example of this generation since the Joint Strike Fighter was the original inspiration for this entire subject. Other examples include:

Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
Lockheed Martin F-35

Keep in mind that these categories are merely one opinion and are not intended to be official in any way. Also note that it is not always easy to classify a particular aircraft. The long-lived F-4 and MiG-21, for example, could fall under second, third, or fourth generation depending on which variant or upgrade is considered. Nevertheless, we feel that the above list provides a good overview of the evolution of jet-powered fighters that should be useful to those interested in combat aircraft.


link : Aerospaceweb.org | Ask Us - Fighter Generations

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SSGPA1

qsaark said:


> As far as my understanding goes, LAVI project was not shelved because of the US pressure (I live in US and know all too well who presurrises whom) but because it was financially not feasible to go ahead with that project. ... So I dont think that IAI Lavi was posing a real threat to the sales of the US warplanes.



"A slim majority of the Cabinet was finally persuaded to abandon building the Lavi as a result of pressure from the Reagan Administration and recommendations from the Israeli Finance Ministry, the Defense Ministry and Israel's army and air force. "

source: http://http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE4DA173AF932A0575BC0A961948260

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SSGPA1

qsaark said:


> ... One of the major reason besides the availability of the realiable and superior aircrafts (F-16s/F-15s) of the cancellation was the final cost[/U]. Some community welfare organizations in Israel also blasted the spending associated with the Lavi as a bottomless pit, and contrasted it with dwindling expenditure on health and education.
> 
> ... Besides, Israel didn't have the required infrastructure in place to manufacture the large number of aircrafts for the export market. So I dont think that IAI Lavi was posing a real threat to the sales of the US warplanes.



"Some $1.3 billion of U.S. aid went into the Lavi before alarm bells went off in Washington: why was the U.S. paying Israel to develop and produce an aircraft that would compete on the international arms market with planes produced by its own companies and put American workers out of their jobs? The Reagan administration, averse to putting pressure on Israel over issues such as stopping settlement construction in the West Bank, leaned on the Israeli government, which duly caved in: the Lavi project was cancelled in 1987."

source: Has Israel&rsquo;s U.S.-Funded Lavi Jet Been Reborn as China&rsquo;s J-10 Warplane?


----------



## SSGPA1

qsaark said:


> Is there a proof that Lavi designs were sold to China? ...



There is no hard evidence bit people who know the project and Israeli source claim the sale and ToT. Here is one Israeli source:

"20 years later, in January 2007, on the other side of the globe, China proudly presented its Chengdu J-10 fighter jet. According to international aviation experts, the Chinese jet bares striking similarities to the 1980s Israeli Lavi fighter. They say thats because Israelis sold the jets technology to China."

Link: Google Image Result for http://quicklink.all.googlepages.com/chengdu_03.jpg


----------



## Luftwaffe

Have a question..Is Egypt going to MLU its not sure 195 or 220 F-16s to blk 50/52+


----------



## zombie:-)

MZUBAIR said:


> Reference Please





arsalanaslam123 said:


> hmm the JF17 may prove to be fine when backed by the AWACs, but still it is not fully operational and it wil be a new system, i do not want to relay on this plane until its second batch comes with some major modification!
> 
> and yes sorry for the FC20, no question on its abilities, speciall keeping in view that unlike the Russian and eurpean who always boast about there machine the Chines always seem to be quite silent about there product and always present them as a downgraded or atleast not fully describe its potential
> 
> *for the F16,, it seems to be over n out sir
> the deal do not seems to be finalized ever!!!*
> 
> 
> May Allah Help Us!!



now you can *THANK *me too Mr.hj786
here is the reference


----------



## Hasnain2009

@ zombie 
arsalanaslam also said JF-17 is better then LCA, reference is here,
http://www.defence.pk/forums/308956-post227.html


arsalanaslam123 said:


> i was just pointing to the fact that there have been many problems that we have been listening to with the LCA, and now when it will be developed the real picture will come out but since this is not the case it is, i think, pointless to compare the two i-e the JF17 and the LCA!
> 
> one thing is for sure and you will also agree to it, the JF 17 is among the few planes in the world with huge potential for modifications, it can be refitted with quite a few number of new engines ad avionic packs without the need for a redesign! that is what makes it a better AC. we can easily change it accorging to our requirments and as we have money in hand, similarly for the export market this is one big plus point for the JF17,
> 
> once we start producing them om mass scale and export them, PAF can use the Revenue to turn it into a more superior platform. it is quite somewhat similar to the F16 project! you see generations gap between the first block F16z and the current Block 52 or Block60!! all this was made possible by the export orders!
> 
> i hope JF17 turns out to be one hell of a plane
> May Allah Help Us!!!



I will thank u if u are agree with arsalan!!


----------



## zombie:-)

Hasnain2009 said:


> @ zombie
> arsalanaslam also said JF-17 is better then LCA, reference is here,
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/308956-post227.html
> 
> 
> I will thank u if u are with with arsalan!!



i am not here for putting the most thanks on board

but as i said in another post i think it is not WISE to compare them just as yet first they are not built to compete and next they have to be operational and i think it wil be better if we compare mk2 versions of the plane because by then both platforms will be mature enough


----------



## hj786

zombie:-) said:


> now you can *THANK *me too Mr.hj786
> here is the reference


Make a decent post first Mr Clown.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Helmet Color/Paint

In the following picture, the F-7s have been given camouflage paint but the white helmets of pilots are destroying the whole camouflage. 

5 - Pakistan Defence Gallery

Also in the following shot, most pilots are being seen with white helmets.

F7-MG - Pakistan Defence Gallery

Would not it be better that the helmet color match the aircraft paint? At least the helmets of each squadron can be given a specific color that matches the color/paint of the squadron aircrafts.


----------



## All-Green

shehbazi2001 said:


> Helmet Color/Paint
> 
> In the following picture, the F-7s have been given camouflage paint but the white helmets of pilots are destroying the whole camouflage.
> 
> 5 - Pakistan Defence Gallery
> 
> Also in the following shot, most pilots are being seen with white helmets.
> 
> F7-MG - Pakistan Defence Gallery
> 
> Would not it be better that the helmet color match the aircraft paint? At least the helmets of each squadron can be given a specific color that matches the color/paint of the squadron aircrafts.



Salaams

Interesting question.

In my mind one of the reasons it may not be done is due to the relative size of the helmet versus the size of the whole aircraft and the speed of the aircraft.
With these factors combined the helmet color would not really make much of a visual impact compared to overall color scheme of the aircraft.
The camouflage is only effective from a distance and at that distance the helmet will not stand out.

In the snapshots even the PAF roundel is comparable/bigger than the helmet size.

My 2 cents.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## duhastmish




----------



## x_man

shehbazi2001 said:


> Helmet Color/Paint
> 
> In the following picture, the F-7s have been given camouflage paint but the white helmets of pilots are destroying the whole camouflage.
> 
> 5 - Pakistan Defence Gallery
> 
> Also in the following shot, most pilots are being seen with white helmets.
> 
> F7-MG - Pakistan Defence Gallery
> 
> Would not it be better that the helmet color match the aircraft paint? At least the helmets of each squadron can be given a specific color that matches the color/paint of the squadron aircrafts.




Shehbazi this is a very old pic of FT-7s..PAF doesnt use brown camo on F-7 anymore (its all grey now). As far as the helmets colour is concerned, it really doesnt matter as they arent visible from farther distance and high speeds. Please note that the pic has been taken from only10 feet and zero relative speed, so therefore the helmets are standing out which otherwise dont. 

Since late 50s to date, PAF has been using the white helmets and they never became an issue as far as camouflage is concerned. In late 80s, PAF also started to use the Grey helmets which can be seen in abundance in airforce. Its upto the personal preference of pilot that which helmet he/she wants to fly with. 

Having flown with both the helmets , I always preferred the Grey one because its lighter in weight, comes with a chic helmet bag, the padding inside the helmet fits much better than the white one and looks better than the white ( in my own opinion)..

*P.S:* Duhastmish, whats the relevance of these F-18 pictures with this thread??? Please dont turn this into another international aircraft picture frenzy thread, until and unless you have some specific query to some particular picture

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## MaXimMaRz

zombie:-) said:


> i am not here for putting the most thanks on board
> 
> but as i said in another post i think it is not WISE to compare them just as yet first they are not built to compete and next they have to be operational and i think it wil be better if we compare mk2 versions of the plane because by then both platforms will be mature enough


Anything operating in the same medium can be compared , LCA and Thunder have almost the same max Gs and roll rate , thunder theoretically will have better T/W ratio...it all comes down to their AI and thw weapon on board...!


----------



## shehbazi2001

x_man said:


> Shehbazi this is a very old pic of FT-7s..PAF doesnt use brown camo on F-7 anymore (its all grey now). As far as the helmets colour is concerned, it really doesnt matter as they arent visible from farther distance and high speeds. Please note that the pic has been taken from only10 feet and zero relative speed, so therefore the helmets are standing out which otherwise dont.
> 
> Since late 50s to date, PAF has been using the white helmets and they never became an issue as far as camouflage is concerned. In late 80s, PAF also started to use the Grey helmets which can be seen in abundance in airforce. Its upto the personal preference of pilot that which helmet he/she wants to fly with.
> 
> Having flown with both the helmets , I always preferred the Grey one because its lighter in weight, comes with a chic helmet bag, the padding inside the helmet fits much better than the white one and looks better than the white ( in my own opinion)..



Thanks X_man for the update. Grey helmets shall surely improve the visual camouflage. I know that in a modern battlefield, a white helmet does not matter much as compared to AEWs,various radars and IRSTs. But as we still use camouflage paint in the presence of all these detection technologies, then I thought that white helmet spoils that camouflage. 

The disadvantage that I had in mind was during close air combat,where relative speeds would be low as you quoted. An interceptor flying high and trying to locate a ground-hugging aircraft may be just looking for any clue and white helmet may prove to be that clue.

In March 2009 issue of Air Forces Monthly, I read an article on the Serb ground attack aircraft called "ORAO". Orao pilots sometimes managed to escape detection even by NATO AWACS by taking terrain cover. It means that look-down radar can be defeated in certain cases. Next comes the human eye and to escape human visual detection, camouflage is still in use.


----------



## MaXimMaRz

shehbazi2001 said:


> Thanks X_man for the update. Grey helmets shall surely improve the visual camouflage. I know that in a modern battlefield, a white helmet does not matter much as compared to AEWs,various radars and IRSTs. But as we still use camouflage paint in the presence of all these detection technologies, then I thought that white helmet spoils that camouflage.
> 
> The disadvantage that I had in mind was during close air combat,where relative speeds would be low as you quoted. An interceptor flying high and trying to locate a ground-hugging aircraft may be just looking for any clue and white helmet may prove to be that clue.
> 
> In March 2009 issue of Air Forces Monthly, I read an article on the Serb ground attack aircraft called "ORAO". Orao pilots sometimes managed to escape detection even by NATO AWACS by taking terrain cover. It means that look-down radar can be defeated in certain cases. Next comes the human eye and to escape human visual detection, camouflage is still in use.


Sun can play a big role in Any combat in visual ranges. Any one against the sun will shine, specially those A/C having Air superiority Grey color. Its a proven fact ! and if a guy can locate a helmet in the heat of the moment i am sure he will be able to locate the HUGE plane under or around it !!!


----------



## zombie:-)

MaXimMaRz said:


> Anything operating in the same medium can be compared , LCA and Thunder have almost the same max Gs and roll rate , thunder theoretically will have better T/W ratio...it all comes down to their AI and thw weapon on board...!



i never said *THEY SHOULD NOT BE COMPARED PLEASE GO THROUGH MY POST CAREFULLY*



> i think it is not WISE to compare them just as yet


----------



## PAFAce

With all the acquisitions the PAF has made / is making, don't you guys think that a recruitment thrust is imminent? the PAF will need pilots, engineers, technicians, administrators, operators etc. to operate the new systems (AEWACS, fighters, Air Defence Systems, Radars etc.) When can we expect this recruitment thrust to occur? 

I believe that many posters here would be wondering the same, seeing that many want to become a part of the Air Force. I certainly wouldn't mind trying enrolling for a GD(P) Graduate Course (which they are not running currently, unfortuntely).


----------



## mean_bird

PAFAce said:


> With all the acquisitions the PAF has made / is making, don't you guys think that a recruitment thrust is imminent? the PAF will need pilots, engineers, technicians, administrators, operators etc. to operate the new systems (AEWACS, fighters, Air Defence Systems, Radars etc.) When can we expect this recruitment thrust to occur?
> 
> I believe that many posters here would be wondering the same, seeing that many want to become a part of the Air Force. I certainly wouldn't mind trying enrolling for a GD(P) Graduate Course (which they are not running currently, unfortuntely).



The project Manager of the JF-17 had said that it will create some 5000 jobs here, and I believe I also saw some ads about the recruitment few months ago.


----------



## araz

mean_bird said:


> The project Manager of the JF-17 had said that it will create some 5000 jobs here, and I believe I also saw some ads about the recruitment few months ago.



My understanding was that the K8 manufacturing line had been stopped and in its place Thunder would be assembled. That alone would not have required any additional manpower. However, if along with that we have (Surely) acquired newer technologies , the infrastructural setup would require new recruitment. However, Kamra must look at hte situation carefully and acquire manpower as required, otherwise it will become non viable in the long run once work dries up.
Araz


----------



## mean_bird

araz said:


> My understanding was that the K8 manufacturing line had been stopped and in its place Thunder would be assembled. That alone would not have required any additional manpower. However, if along with that we have (Surely) acquired newer technologies , the infrastructural setup would require new recruitment. However, Kamra must look at hte situation carefully and acquire manpower as required, otherwise it will become non viable in the long run once work dries up.
> Araz



Please correct me if I am wrong here... Pakistan only manufacture few parts (including front fuselage) of K8, which is then sent to china. We do not have a K-8 assembly line in pakistan.

Also I read in a newspaper that China State engineering company was awarded the contract to build the infrastructure in pakistan and with some major machinery imported from sweden ( IIRC). I don't think the K-8 facility, or its current strength will be able to handle the JF-17. In addition to that, if PAC intends to manufacture 30 aircrafts per year, I am sure a lot of jobs will be create.

In the long run, this facility will also act as a rebuild factory and for possible export orders.

Please feel free to correct me if I missed something.


----------



## hassan1

which uav is this


----------



## Owais

hassan1 said:


> which uav is this



thats not a UAV its a kind of TV guided GBU


----------



## araz

mean_bird said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong here... Pakistan only manufacture few parts (including front fuselage) of K8, which is then sent to china. We do not have a K-8 assembly line in pakistan.
> 
> Also I read in a newspaper that China State engineering company was awarded the contract to build the infrastructure in pakistan and with some major machinery imported from sweden ( IIRC). I don't think the K-8 facility, or its current strength will be able to handle the JF-17. In addition to that, if PAC intends to manufacture 30 aircrafts per year, I am sure a lot of jobs will be create.
> 
> In the long run, this facility will also act as a rebuild factory and for possible export orders.
> 
> Please feel free to correct me if I missed something.



meanbird.
brother you are probably right. However there was some news to the extent that work on K8 had to be cancelled to accomodate Thunder assembly line. I may have gotten it totally wrong that there was a plan to assemble K8 in Kamra. From your post it seems and rightly so that there is much more work involved than i had originally anticipated. You are correct regarding Swedish machinery.
WaSalam
Araz


----------



## hj786

hassan1 said:


> which uav is this





Owais said:


> thats not a UAV its a kind of TV guided GBU


It is a South-African glide bomb:
*..:: DENEL DYNAMICS - Division of Denel Pty LTD. ::..*


----------



## hassan1

hj786 said:


> It is a South-African glide bomb:
> *..:: DENEL DYNAMICS - Division of Denel Pty LTD. ::..*


 i need information about it
and when Paf use


----------



## MaXimMaRz

hassan1 said:


> i need information about it
> and when Paf use



I dont think we got those buddy.

but i would love to get my hands on those


----------



## hassan1

MaXimMaRz said:


> I dont think we got those buddy.
> 
> but i would love to get my hands on those



check this link for detail

Paintings


----------



## Najam Khan

Any body remember serial no of Red & white coloured F-7 used by 18Sqn in 90s and the serial no of 17Sqn F-7PG with _Tiger Color Scheme_.

PS:if iam not mistaken the serial number of that F-7PG is 810.


----------



## MaXimMaRz

NAjAM Khan said:


> Any body remember serial no of Red & white coloured F-7 used by 18Sqn in 90s and the serial no of 17Sqn F-7PG with _Tiger Color Scheme_.
> 
> PS:if iam not mistaken the serial number of that F-7PG is 810.



why do you need that?......are you form logistics?


----------



## MaXimMaRz

NAjAM Khan said:


> Any body remember serial no of Red & white coloured F-7 used by 18Sqn in 90s and the serial no of 17Sqn F-7PG with _Tiger Color Scheme_.
> 
> PS:if iam not mistaken the serial number of that F-7PG is 810.



*AND NO SERIAL NuMBERS OF ANY AIRCRAFT IS ALLOWED....*


----------



## Muradk

MaXimMaRz said:


> *AND NO SERIAL NuMBERS OF ANY AIRCRAFT IS ALLOWED....*



MAX: I think you have the wrong info, The fighter is a property of GOP and is in public domain you just need to know where to look for it , Najam I will get the numbers.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muradk

WebMaster said:


> Turkey also provided F-5 with other air-to-air ammunition. Please confirm. We also recieved F-104 from Turkey.



Jordan gave us F-5, I think I mentioned it in one of my threads I took off and 
nazar in F-5, We got a frantic call from the OC flying that land the dame planes they don't have Ejection R installed in it

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Najam Khan

MaXimMaRz said:


> why do you need that?......are you form logistics?



I have made some sketches,but they are incomplete without serial numbers for eg...

Two sketches of 17 Sqn F-7PG colored in tiger scheme on 50th anniversary of the squadron. PAC has really done great paint job.




This one is No.18 Sqn F-7.There is a small clip of this aircraft in a PAF song.This particular aircraft used this color scheme in 90s.


And an Ex-RAAF Mirage-IIIDA Sr.No 90-502 belonging to No.22 OCU

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Najam Khan

Muradk said:


> MAX: I think you have the wrong info, The fighter is a property of GOP and is in public domain you just need to know where to look for it , Najam I will get the numbers.



Thanks for the post sir,i have dozen of related questions for you.
Can you please acquire serials of Red Sabres,Red barons,rattlers, F-6's tiger demo team etc... ? Is there any real photo of these birds?

May be Hussaini didn't got original serials and used front or rear angle to create paintings of F-6's demo teams(rattlers,tigers) and red Sabres.

I have used the same logic once....but iam eager to know the original serials,just to make a side pose of these birds.

*and last but not the least is it possible if you can post details of all colored birds/display teams used by PAF from Red Dragons till 17 Sqn F-7PG?*


----------



## MaXimMaRz

Muradk said:


> MAX: I think you have the wrong info, The fighter is a property of GOP and is in public domain you just need to know where to look for it , Najam I will get the numbers.



1. There are alot of things that are of Government , Still you dont get them ! why ?

2. Things that are not ment to be brought in public , shouldn't be brought in public......!!! *( i dont know why i have to even explain this to you ?) *


----------



## hj786

MaXimMaRz said:


> 2. Things that are not ment to be brought in public , shouldn't be brought in public......!!! *( i dont know why i have to even explain this to you ?) *


Sir MuradK is an ex-PAF fighter pilot who has fought for his country in two wars, he deserves a lot more respect than that. Please edit your post, you have no right to mock him in this way.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hassan1

CHECK PAF NEW JH-7A AIRCRAFT

PAF JH-7A - Pakistan Defence Gallery


----------



## notsuperstitious

Najam Khan, neat sketches sir.


----------



## shehbazi2001

NAjAM Khan said:


> *and last but not the least is it possible if you can post details of all colored birds/display teams used by PAF from Red Dragons till 17 Sqn F-7PG?*




The painting of Sabre is not bad but there are some techincal mistakes like the three 0.5 inch (12.7 mm) calibre guns on each side of the fuselage are not in order. The guns are placed in an arrow head type arrangement with the middle gun protuding ahead of the top and bottom gun.

Then it seems that you have placed rocket pods on the wrong pylon. The pylon that you have used is a wet pylon, used for carrying the fuel tank. The inboard underwing pylon was used for rocket pods.

Also you have combined flaps and ailerons, which is wrong in case of F-86. Yes you can add full-span slats on them but not full-span flaps.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Hasnain2009

Good job Najam!!


----------



## Najam Khan

shehbazi2001 said:


> The painting of Sabre is not bad but there are some techincal mistakes like the three 0.5 inch (12.7 mm) calibre guns on each side of the fuselage are not in order. The guns are placed in an arrow head type arrangement with the middle gun protuding ahead of the top and bottom gun.
> 
> Then it seems that you have placed rocket pods on the wrong pylon. The pylon that you have used is a wet pylon, used for carrying the fuel tank. The inboard underwing pylon was used for rocket pods.
> 
> Also you have combined flaps and ailerons, which is wrong in case of F-86. Yes you can add full-span slats on them but not full-span flaps.



Thanks for your detailed reply Shehbazi,its always great to acquire knowledge from you guys at Def.pk. I'll make sure these mistakes arent repeated!

Thanks to fateh and Hasnain


----------



## spurdozer

Gr8 job. Najam sir.


----------



## spurdozer

sorry guyys double post.


----------



## HAIDER

Does a plane burnt more gas to sustain lower speed on high attitude ...for example refueling ??


----------



## Muradk

HAIDER said:


> Does a plane burnt more gas to sustain lower speed on high attitude ...for example refueling ??



Nice question 
lets start with the basics at low altitude we have more Oxygen more Friction which means more Drag. So at any speed it will suck your tank dry because of the above conditions.
Now when we are at higher altitude we have less Oxygen less Drag so it will not burn more Fuel. If you have noticed that all commercial airlines which are crossing over that Atlantic or any other ocean will be at a higher altitude to cross 5 to 6 thousand miles they climb higher. The longer the trip the higher the altitude.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## HAIDER

We notice second world war plane had frequent problem of stall....is this common technical issue, can we still find this problem in modern fighters. If it happened what are chances of survival for fighter during air combat ???...


----------



## Muradk

HAIDER said:


> We notice second world war plane had frequent problem of stall....is this common technical issue, can we still find this problem in modern fighters. If it happened what are chances of survival for fighter during air combat ???...



Every Fighter has a limit and after that it will stall. Stall means it runs out of air speed, Even fighters like F-22 with such Weight to Thrust Ratio will stall at a certain point.
In war if you stall either you end up in Hell or Heaven there is no 3rd option.


----------



## PAFAce

Muradk said:


> Every Fighter has a limit and after that it will stall. Stall means it runs out of air speed, Even fighters like F-22 with such Weight to Thrust Ratio will stall at a certain point.
> In war if you stall either you end up in Hell or Heaven there is no 3rd option.



Sir, what is the post-stall maneauver, and what is its significance when related to thrust vectoring? I watched a Canadian show in which they told Canadian Air Force recruits not go below 180knots in their CF-18s, and if they did, to dive and build up air-speed to 180knots before continuing. Is that the post-stall maneuver?


----------



## Tang0

Muradk said:


> Nice question
> lets start with the basics at low altitude we have more Oxygen more Friction which means more Drag. So at any speed it will suck your tank dry because of the above conditions.
> Now when we are at higher altitude we have less Oxygen less Drag so it will not burn more Fuel. If you have noticed that all commercial airlines which are crossing over that Atlantic or any other ocean will be at a higher altitude to cross 5 to 6 thousand miles they climb higher. The longer the trip the higher the altitude.



Right notion, but wrong explanation good sir. 

Sorry, I am an aerospace engineer and I could not resist. 

First off, lets ignore propeller driven aircraft because well..It is complicated.
Jets have a similar fuel efficiency for a given thrust all throughout their operational altitudes, so the engine does not really care. Drag is proportional to air density, but so is lift. It is proportional to the square of velocity, but again, so is lift. "Parasite drag" also increases with the square of the velocity. Since: Drag =Parasite Drag + Lift Induced Drag, that means, drag increases faster than lift as you increase velocity, especially as you get past Mach .75. 

Lets ignore the transonic region as well though.

The issue essentially amounts to how fast you want to get somewhere. For lift to be equal to weight(IE to "fly"), if we increase velocity, to stay in level flight, we need to decrease the air density. Otherwise, we climb, which has the side effect of decreasing the air density anyway. 

If you do the calculations, you find that the most fuel efficient flight path is slow, near the ground, at around 120% of stall speed. 

This ignores atmospheric turbulence that you get at lower altitudes, but that is situational. The issue is of course, no-one wants to sit and wait for 5 hours, when they could get to their destination in 3. So, if you want to go faster and still be relatively fuel efficient (In steady level flight), you climb. 

Long story short, most airlines fly between 30% and 60% faster than the most fuel efficient speed, and at higher altitudes because of that. In addition, higher altitudes get you more consistent wind magnitudes and direction along with less turbulence. 

The reasons for fast, high altitude flight do not however relate directly to an increase in fuel efficiency.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Tang0

PAFAce said:


> Sir, what is the post-stall maneauver, and what is its significance when related to thrust vectoring? I watched a Canadian show in which they told Canadian Air Force recruits not go below 180knots in their CF-18s, and if they did, to dive and build up air-speed to 180knots before continuing. Is that the post-stall maneuver?



Stall is a technical definition meaning: The point at which, because of low velocity of the wing relative to the air stream, you stop generating significant lift. This happens because of not enough thrust, too low speeds, or high angles of attack. Basically, aerodynamic forces are no longer the most important, and gravity does its thing. Falling is bad, especially as the plane is not designed to be stable while falling.
Post stall maneuvering is anything that happens after you stall, but before lift takes over again. Usually, it is some variation on the dive, but you could do anything. With enough thrust, you can complete a turn, or in the case of the F-16, even gain altitude.
Generally, stalling your aircraft is a bad plan. And in a dogfight, slows you down enough for the enemy to gain altitude and get the drop on you. 

Muradk I am sure could come up with some better examples.


----------



## Muradk

PAFAce said:


> Sir, what is the post-stall maneauver, and what is its significance when related to thrust vectoring? I watched a Canadian show in which they told Canadian Air Force recruits not go below 180knots in their CF-18s, and if they did, to dive and build up air-speed to 180knots before continuing. Is that the post-stall maneuver?



Below 180 it will stall and will not recover, With TV you have so much power that the fighter can stay in air suspended drop its nose and not go into a flat spin with TV technology Flat spin recovery is easy. The following is in a way a few ways to do PSM

*STALL TURN*:
To execute a Stall Turn, the aircraft must start in level flight and nose up to a vertical flight path until it comes to a stop. At which point the model aircraft yaws through 180 degrees, then dives and finally recovers straight and level on a flight path in the opposite direction to the entry. Entry and exit should be at the same height. Low powered aircraft types would be expected to execute a shallow dive at full throttle in order to pick up the necessary speed before commencing the maneuver. The Stall Turn will allow players to regain the offensive position.
*
The Herbst Maneuver* 

The Herbst Maneuver another classic post-stall maneuver. The goal of the maneuver is to quite simply reverse the aircrafts heading angle and to complete the reversal at the same point and velocity that the maneuver was started from. The maneuver typically resembles the one illustrated; the aircraft pitches to a high AOA to stop the forward component of its velocity, puts in rudder at the top of the climb to point the aircraft down, and then dives to regain speed as it returns to the starting point, enabling a rapid direction change.
*
The Cobra*

The Cobra is yet another post-stall maneuver. The two primary characteristics of this maneuver are 1 a rapid pitch-up to near 90 degrees AOA and 2 a rapid decrease in velocity by 50-75%. (The latter is due to the fact that the aircraft is flying through the air on its tail when at 90 degrees AOA, and therefore is incurring a huge drag penalty.) The maneuver also results in an increase in altitude due to the lift generated at AOA values greater than zero.

*The Kulbit*

An aircraft could shoot an opponent directly behind them by extending the Cobra past 90 degrees to a full 180 degrees. The aircraft actually pitches all the way from 0 to 360 degrees AOA while flying in a nearly straight line, except for the altitude increase as before with the Cobra. This allows for ideal missile shot positioning. But It depends on a the fighter which is locked in a dog fight this move is good but have to bring the boggy close and then pull it , if the boggy is 1500 to 2000 ft behind you and you pull this you are dead. He is go for full breaks and a missile shot or guns.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muradk

Tang0 said:


> Right notion, but wrong explanation good sir.
> 
> Sorry, I am an aerospace engineer and I could not resist.
> 
> First off, lets ignore propeller driven aircraft because well..It is complicated.
> Jets have a similar fuel efficiency for a given thrust all throughout their operational altitudes, so the engine does not really care. Drag is proportional to air density, but so is lift. It is proportional to the square of velocity, but again, so is lift. "Parasite drag" also increases with the square of the velocity. Since: Drag =Parasite Drag + Lift Induced Drag, that means, drag increases faster than lift as you increase velocity, especially as you get past Mach .75.
> 
> Lets ignore the transonic region as well though.
> 
> The issue essentially amounts to how fast you want to get somewhere. For lift to be equal to weight(IE to "fly"), if we increase velocity, to stay in level flight, we need to decrease the air density. Otherwise, we climb, which has the side effect of decreasing the air density anyway.
> 
> If you do the calculations, you find that the most fuel efficient flight path is slow, near the ground, at around 120% of stall speed.
> 
> This ignores atmospheric turbulence that you get at lower altitudes, but that is situational. The issue is of course, no-one wants to sit and wait for 5 hours, when they could get to their destination in 3. So, if you want to go faster and still be relatively fuel efficient (In steady level flight), you climb.
> 
> Long story short, most airlines fly between 30% and 60% faster than the most fuel efficient speed, and at higher altitudes because of that. In addition, higher altitudes get you more consistent wind magnitudes and direction along with less turbulence.
> 
> The reasons for fast, high altitude flight do not however relate directly to an increase in fuel efficiency.



If I start using Airforce terms my friend will not learn any thing, So I try to stay very basic when it comes to make someone understand, What you said I learned it in When I did my PHD in AeroD in 1984. If I go into deep details that wount help instead make things complicated with more question. What all you said I said it in 1 line. The people asking questions are quite aware when I say Friction or drag. 
And please you don't have to say Sorry.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MaXimMaRz

Tang0 said:


> Right notion, but wrong explanation good sir.
> 
> Sorry, I am an aerospace engineer and I could not resist.
> 
> First off, lets ignore propeller driven aircraft because well..It is complicated.
> Jets have a similar fuel efficiency for a given thrust all throughout their operational altitudes, so the engine does not really care. Drag is proportional to air density, but so is lift. It is proportional to the square of velocity, but again, so is lift. "Parasite drag" also increases with the square of the velocity. Since: Drag =Parasite Drag + Lift Induced Drag, that means, drag increases faster than lift as you increase velocity, especially as you get past Mach .75.
> 
> Lets ignore the transonic region as well though.
> 
> The issue essentially amounts to how fast you want to get somewhere. For lift to be equal to weight(IE to "fly"), if we increase velocity, to stay in level flight, we need to decrease the air density. Otherwise, we climb, which has the side effect of decreasing the air density anyway.
> 
> If you do the calculations, you find that the most fuel efficient flight path is slow, near the ground, at around 120% of stall speed.
> 
> This ignores atmospheric turbulence that you get at lower altitudes, but that is situational. The issue is of course, no-one wants to sit and wait for 5 hours, when they could get to their destination in 3. So, if you want to go faster and still be relatively fuel efficient (In steady level flight), you climb.
> 
> Long story short, most airlines fly between 30% and 60% faster than the most fuel efficient speed, and at higher altitudes because of that. In addition, higher altitudes get you more consistent wind magnitudes and direction along with less turbulence.
> 
> The reasons for fast, high altitude flight do not however relate directly to an increase in fuel efficiency.





good 1 , i totally agree....Please get involved more, cuz we need people with know how to generate talks......


----------



## PAFAce

Muradk said:


> ...I learned it in When I did my PHD in AeroD in 1984...



Sir, did you get your PhD from the Air War College or the Air University? I had read that there were programs in place for PAF officers to complete graduate studies, both nationally and abroad. If this is true, then I would definitely consider doing graduate and research work in Pakistan instead of Canada or the US.


----------



## qsaark

PAFAce said:


> Sir, did you get your PhD from the Air War College or the Air University? I had read that there were programs in place for PAF officers to complete graduate studies, both nationally and abroad. If this is true, then I would definitely consider doing graduate and research work in Pakistan instead of Canada or the US.


I dont know how it is on the engineering side, but after trying in a couple of very BIG name Pakistani Institutions and wasting three precious years of my life I had to leave Pakistan to do my PhD abroad. A decision, I always regret why I didn't make earlier.


----------



## Muradk

PAFAce said:


> Sir, did you get your PhD from the Air War College or the Air University? I had read that there were programs in place for PAF officers to complete graduate studies, both nationally and abroad. If this is true, then I would definitely consider doing graduate and research work in Pakistan instead of Canada or the US.




Yar In Pakistan we retire at a early age its not like USA that you retire after 65 and say I am done but after that people do work in USA. I being a fighter pilot retire having a BA in Aerospace Engg and Masters that will not get you a job after retirement. So I did my BA', 2 Masters, 1 Masters in Military Operations, The other 1 in Physics and a PHD. All done in USA except BA.


----------



## mean_bird

Muradk said:


> Yar In Pakistan we retire at a early age its not like USA that you retire after 65 and say I am done but after that people do work in USA. I being a fighter pilot retire having a BA in Aerospace Engg and Masters that will not get you a job after retirement. So I did my BA', 2 Masters, 1 Masters in Military Operations, The other 1 in Physics and a PHD. All done in USA except BA.



Wow..incredible credentials. May I ask what was your topic in PhD? 

Btw, expect me to keep bothering you with silly newbie questions as Aerodynamics and military jets seems to be my new-found hobby


----------



## PAFAce

Muradk said:


> Yar In Pakistan we retire at a early age its not like USA that you retire after 65 and say I am done but after that people do work in USA. I being a fighter pilot retire having a BA in Aerospace Engg and Masters that will not get you a job after retirement. So I did my BA', 2 Masters, 1 Masters in Military Operations, The other 1 in Physics and a PHD. All done in USA except BA.



Sir, if I were interested in joining the PAF in the R&D departments, would you recommend that I complete at least a Masters from Canada or the US, or will a Bachelor of Applied Science degree be enough? Also, what departments in the PAF hire civillians for R&D work? I know PAC Kamra does a lot of engineering work, but not R&D. CAE is probably one institution that focuses on R&D, along with SUPARCO etc.

Also, what are the chances of the PAF re-opening the GD(P) Graduate Program. Will it be possible to get more information on this?


----------



## sohailbutt

I was wondering if PAF uses Maverick missile for air to ground attacks basically used to take out tanks and other land based military hardware, can any one with the proper knowledge please answer my question?


----------



## Muradk

mean_bird said:


> Wow..incredible credentials. May I ask what was your topic in PhD?
> 
> Btw, expect me to keep bothering you with silly newbie questions as Aerodynamics and military jets seems to be my new-found hobby



PhD in Aerodynamics and my son is doing his PhD in Astrophysics.
Son I have been teaching all my life regardless of my rank. I used to pick up the least experienced pilot and say ok Son Show me what you got out of 69 students I have never raised my voice always had a smile which made them easy in the cockpit but I admit 1 student who is now a very big person in PAF I have broken his bones because he being selected for BPT quite on me that people say that I look like a mouse so I want to quit PAF and I picked him up and started beating him and didn't stop while beating him I was crying more than him because he was more than a son too me. After the thrashing he flew with one of the worst people in the history of PAF a man who thought he was the best and used to fire SQD Cmd on the spot, my student flew with him and won the BPT. 
So you can ask me anything regardless of what you think is a stupid question, is actually not stupid. knowledge is knowledge no matter what others say. There are a very few people who have really seen a Fighter let alone fly one, You might be very educated but sitting a flying is a totally separate thing and having a couple of boogies under your belt makes hell of a difference.
So ask anything except weapons I will not go into details unless PAF has openly told everyone. I hope you can understand. So fire away sometimes I am busy with job and grandkids so reply might be late which I appologise my wife has already said that Defence.pk is my SawtanA waring for NEO and ASIM if she lands in your city vanish  it takes her 1 sec from becoming a good house wife to bruce lee.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Patriot

Sir, How many planes have you shot down in 65 and 71 wars?


----------



## Muradk

PAFAce said:


> Sir, if I were interested in joining the PAF in the R&D departments, would you recommend that I complete at least a Masters from Canada or the US, or will a Bachelor of Applied Science degree be enough? Also, what departments in the PAF hire civillians for R&D work? I know PAC Kamra does a lot of engineering work, but not R&D. CAE is probably one institution that focuses on R&D, along with SUPARCO etc.
> 
> Also, what are the chances of the PAF re-opening the GD(P) Graduate Program. Will it be possible to get more information on this?



Look I don't want to discourage you person with the name Nisar was asked by Gen Zia to join DR Q. And nisar was the most educated person in that field at that time he quit his job from USA and joined Mr Q he left the job in 3 months because he was a civilian and his advice was taken as crap. Same person who loved Pakistan left a 6 figure job in USA now hates Pakistan because how he was treated and he is now one of the top people in NASA today.
you can join PAC by sending your resume to CPD JF-17 don't surrender your nationality you might need it. Again Who an I to tell you if you want to join do it we need good people .
This year they will not take GDP Applications because they have qualified people on waiting list. My advise join CAE and change to GDP after 2 months. After hiring GDP Cadet most leave within a month a space is open you can convert your course from CAE to GDP. Academy likes to keep a higher ratio of cadets in the pilot field.


----------



## Muradk

saadahmed said:


> Sir, How many planes have you shot down in 65 and 71 wars?




 NEO can tell you the count.


----------



## shehbazi2001

sohailbutt said:


> I was wondering if PAF uses Maverick missile for air to ground attacks basically used to take out tanks and other land based military hardware, can any one with the proper knowledge please answer my question?




Yes in a video/song of PAF, we see Mavericks with F-16s. Now I dont know which version of Maverick PAF has bought.........may be the TV-guided AGM-65A or improved AGM-65B.

TV-guided Mavericks can't be used if the weather is not clear or if its night or darkness............

For night ground-attack , there is an IR-guided Maverick version......

For all-weather attack, there is a laser-guided version of Maverick....

For all-weather/round-the-clock capability, you need a wide variety of weapons.........

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mean_bird

Muradk said:


> PhD in Aerodynamics and my son is doing his PhD in Astrophysics.



Actually my question was about your topic...like the exact area you worked on in your PhD or better asked, "what was the title of your dissertation report?"

If its available online, you can save the explanation and throw in the link or any of your research papers.



Muradk said:


> So you can ask me anything regardless of what you think is a stupid question, is actually not stupid. knowledge is knowledge no matter what others say. There are a very few people who have really seen a Fighter let alone fly one, You might be very educated but sitting a flying is a totally separate thing and having a couple of boogies under your belt makes hell of a difference.



That's very kind of you. 



Muradk said:


> So ask anything except weapons I will not go into details unless PAF has openly told everyone. I hope you can understand.



Oh, don't worry, my questions are rather about aerodynamics than PAF and any PAF specific question would be general. I can understand that things in the armed forces are pretty sensitive and sometimes even things we may consider normal as classified. 



Muradk said:


> So fire away sometimes I am busy with job and grandkids so reply might be late which I appologise my wife has already said that Defence.pk is my SawtanA waring for NEO and ASIM if she lands in your city vanish  it takes her 1 sec from becoming a good house wife to bruce lee.



Let's hope she doesn't read this part 


*My first question:*

This question arises from rumors about JF-17 will possibly have a future twin-tail version. Its been rumored around by all and sundry but also reported by some rather respectable people that we "should expect a twin-tail version in the future".

So the question is : What advantages would a *light weight* ,twin-tail, presumably *single engine* plane offer to the *airforce*? 

The bolded part seems interesting (to me). My limited knowledge tells me at a first glance that twin tails may have several advantages...like reduction in height ... which is helpful in putting them in a hanger (particularly interesting for Navy), reduction is RCS , shorter take off because a canted twin-tail also have the vertical component of the airflow that might add to the lift, helpful in maintaining balance in twin-engine if one engine fails or provides unequal thrust, etc but has a disadvantage in that it increases weight which is of significant importance to a light weight aircraft. 

All the above features (with the exception of reduction in RCS) suits the Navy better. No wonder F-14, F-18, was mostly in the US Navy use (although they were used by airforces of other nations like Iran , Australia, Spain,etc). Infact, and if I am not wrong, the F-16 and the F-18 were in direct competition at the design stage both hoping to impress the forces for their then next generation light-weight fighter. The USAF chose the F-16 while the US Navy preferred the F-18 both with slight modifications. 

Other twin-tail fighters, however, have been used by airforces like the Sukhoi Su-27, F-22, F-35, etc but atleast all these and the one used by the Navy were twin engines and heavy weight (OK, F-35 has one but a mammoth one) .Of these, the Su-30 and the F-15 both had pure vertical twin-tails unlike the hornet. Here I have omitted older designs because presumably with advances in understanding of aerodynamics, later designs are much more optimized. I also excluded the the F-14 having vertical tails because it has another unique feature in that it can change its aspect ratio.

Light/medium weight single engine popular design do not use the twin-tails e.g F-16, EF-2000, Rafale, Grippen, JF-17, J-10, LCA, etc. 

In summary, the question(s) is/are:
- what advantages or disadvantages would a twin-tail design give to the JF-17 or any other signe-engined fighter?

- How do these advantages/disadvantages compare with primary role of airforce/Navy in addition to what I have stated? (like in why USAF went with F-16 while USN with F-18 while other airfroces did opt for F-18)

- How does a vertical twin tail / canted twin tail relate to other features like aspect ratio, wing design,dihedral angle, sweep angle etc and characteristics of the plane like flight regime?


I presume the answer to each of these sub-questions would be rather long, so please take your time and if you wish you can answer one part at a time. Also, if you have some online resource for *easy reference* or know of any video lectures, graphical explanation on any of these topics, it would be highly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.


P.S. Oh, just a note...Mods/ Admins, if this thread isn't the right place for this discussion, you can move it to a more appropriate place since this thread is primarily related to air force questions rather then aerodynamics of planes.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Tang0 said:


> Jets have a similar fuel efficiency for a given thrust all throughout their operational altitudes, so the engine does not really care.
> 
> _Engine does care. Aircrafts have different ranges at different altitudes, why? because the engine does care. Thats why the designers optimise an engine for a given altitude.
> 
> The engines of Tornado are optimised for low-level flight and their performance at medium level is not impressive. Air superiority fighter engines are designed for medium level altitudes and they burn more fuel at low altitudes, reducing their range at low level.
> 
> At higher altitudes, air density is lower, which can cause a reduction in thrust, if engine is not optimised for this altitude. A reduction in thrust for a given fuel increases the specific fuel consumption (sfc). But then the engines of airliners are designed for cruising heights, which are themselves at medium altitudes. _
> 
> The issue essentially amounts to how fast you want to get somewhere. For lift to be equal to weight(IE to "fly"), if we increase velocity, to stay in level flight, we need to decrease the air density. Otherwise, we climb, which has the side effect of decreasing the air density anyway.
> 
> _Hard for me to digest. Aircrafts regularly accelerate to supersonic speed while remaining at level flight. Increasing velocity does not mean that we must climb (to reduce air density)._

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## anoopsaxena76

Muradk said:


> PhD in Aerodynamics and my son is doing his PhD in Astrophysics.
> ..............
> So you can ask me anything regardless of what you think is a stupid question, is actually not stupid. knowledge is knowledge no matter what others say. There are a very few people who have really seen a Fighter let alone fly one, You might be very educated but sitting a flying is a totally separate thing and having a couple of boogies under your belt makes hell of a difference.
> So ask anything except weapons I will not go into details unless PAF has openly told everyone. .....




Hello Mr. Murad, just wanted to thank you. Have read many posts and your views / replies and have to tell you, it is a pleasure to read your insights. We may have a history of two wars behind us as citizens of two different countries but my objectivity allows me to respect men in uniform irrespective of the country and so taking this opportunity to share my thoughts with you. This particular thread has given good insights and hoping to read more on aerodynamics etc. I do have a question though, and if I may narrate an incident before that.

My brother-in-law a retired commodore from the IN, did his Engineering from IIT (a highly reputed institute in India for the benefit of those who may not know) and then his masters from UK sponsored by the IN. You may have heard of the ATV project (the nuclear submarine project in India) which really is not going anywhere frankly and he was part of the team that was posted in Russia to understand and absorb the technology. He narrated this incident to me. After a few classes of training, the Indian Engineers demanded that they be handed over the notes which they can read in leisure time thereby expediting the entire learning process instead of being taught like in a class room. Initially Russian instructor hesitated but upon persistence he gave the notes away. And my brother-in-law tells me that the science in those notes was really so advanced that the team could not make much of it. 

So my question is, what is the technology gap between US/ Russia and Pakistan/India, of course only about things that you can disclose. I realise it is a very open ended question in terms of "technological gap in which field" but I leave it to you to address it.  I hope you do not mind.

Thanks and kind regards,
Anoop.


----------



## Tang0

shehbazi2001 said:


> Tang0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Engine does care. Aircrafts have different ranges at different altitudes, why? because the engine does care. Thats why the designers optimise an engine for a given altitude.
> 
> The engines of Tornado are optimised for low-level flight and their performance at medium level is not impressive. Air superiority fighter engines are designed for medium level altitudes and they burn more fuel at low altitudes, reducing their range at low level.
> 
> At higher altitudes, air density is lower, which can cause a reduction in thrust, if engine is not optimised for this altitude. A reduction in thrust for a given fuel reduces the specific fuel consumption (sfc)._
> 
> The issue essentially amounts to how fast you want to get somewhere. For lift to be equal to weight(IE to "fly"), if we increase velocity, to stay in level flight, we need to decrease the air density. Otherwise, we climb, which has the side effect of decreasing the air density anyway.
> 
> _Hard for me to digest. Aircrafts regularly accelerate to supersonic speed while remaining at level flight. Increasing velocity does not mean that we must climb (to reduce air density)._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note that I say "Stay in steady Level Flight". That means without changing your angle of attack, which changes lift generation, and the direction of your lift vector. You can lower your nose and stay at the same altitude, but you will have decreased your fuel efficiency in order to do so. This is one of the many reasons that dog fighting is incredibly costly from a fuel standpoint.
> 
> About the engines: You are correct, but the simplifying assumption is not all to terrible for a "Hand Wavy" discussion. At least, that is what my professors said when I was an undergrad.
> 
> All of that said, I would love to talk tech with an actual Ph.D. with fighter experience. I am a recent BA recipient in aerospace, and I freely admit the depths of my ignorance when it comes to the intricacies of flight stability and dynamics.
Click to expand...


----------



## blain2

sohailbutt said:


> I was wondering if PAF uses Maverick missile for air to ground attacks basically used to take out tanks and other land based military hardware, can any one with the proper knowledge please answer my question?



Yes AGM-65s are in the PAF inventory for use on the F-16s. AS-30s are used by the Mirages in a similar role.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MastanKhan

shehbazi2001 said:


> Tang0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jets have a similar fuel efficiency for a given thrust all throughout their operational altitudes, so the engine does not really care.
> 
> _Engine does care. Aircrafts have different ranges at different altitudes, why? because the engine does care. Thats why the designers optimise an engine for a given altitude.
> 
> The engines of Tornado are optimised for low-level flight and their performance at medium level is not impressive. Air superiority fighter engines are designed for medium level altitudes and they burn more fuel at low altitudes, reducing their range at low level.
> 
> At higher altitudes, air density is lower, which can cause a reduction in thrust, if engine is not optimised for this altitude. A reduction in thrust for a given fuel reduces the specific fuel consumption (sfc)._
> 
> The issue essentially amounts to how fast you want to get somewhere. For lift to be equal to weight(IE to "fly"), if we increase velocity, to stay in level flight, we need to decrease the air density. Otherwise, we climb, which has the side effect of decreasing the air density anyway.
> 
> _Hard for me to digest. Aircrafts regularly accelerate to supersonic speed while remaining at level flight. Increasing velocity does not mean that we must climb (to reduce air density)._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Could not resist---you got me out of my break / vacation---we need to remember that the higher we climb---the lesser the amount of oxygen is available to burn---so that creates a problem---which is the starvation of combustion because of lack of oxygen fuel---
> 
> oh guess what---can't do a cobra at high altitude either---any immediate change in direction of an aircraft at high altitude would disrupt the air flow to the engine---resulting in a possible 'compressor bump / stall' ( am I right MuradK )
> 
> Another examples is in automobiles----they are tuned differently to be driven at sea level---unless they have the modern fuel injection systems which automatically adjust the amount of fuel and air and ignition timing for higher altitudes. But then still there are limitations---all the compensations can only do so much---lack of oxygen would just starve the engine and reduce the power.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tang0

Do we dare open this can of worms...?

The problem is what precisely you are talking about. If you know anything about compressible supersonic flow, you know that things behave...oddly after the speed of sound. So are we talking about M <1 or > 1? Are we talking about high bypass turbofans, or turbojets? There are big complicated equations relating air density, velocity, temperature, specific heat capacity, and half a dozen other things, to specific thrust, and they are slightly diffrent for every engine. 

The reason I did my hand-wavy simplification is that although net thrust decreases with altitude, you have to fly at higher velocities at higher altitudes to stay aloft in any case. And the effects for velocity and density are both "Close to" linear, so they "Mostly" cancel each other out. Of course, I was making all types of simplifications in the first place, assuming all we really cared about was getting the farthest on a tank of gas, and ignoring things like weather and time constraints. Along with changes in AOA, the need to turn....

Any mathematically rigorous analysis as you can see is going to explode fairly quickly. There are engineers who spend many months of analysis picking specific engines for specific airframes with specific missions, and, they often get it wrong. 

Should we create a separate thread for "Technical Discussions" where all us rotor heads can hash this type of stuff out?


----------



## HAIDER

I have seen lots of debate about Delta and non delta wing aircraft. Historically non delta wings like F16,F14,F15,F18 has highest kill ratio in the world. But present day everyone has launched delta wings, Rafale,Euro,LCA,J10,Mirage,etc. Some of critics support the point of having less Delta wings in Pakistan air force, because they have very limited role. Mainly navel warfare. Are we following the concept of successful use of Argentina's Mirage during falkland war, sinking HMS Shaff..
Why ?...


Second part of my Question to Sir Murad or anyone, did PAF learn the best use of Mirage after Falkland war or PAF already had the concept, before Argentina.
...But Sir Brits gives the argument HMS Shaf was not in function mode and some Brits say,Shaff radar was not capable of catching low flying in comings)


----------



## MaXimMaRz

HAIDER said:


> I have seen lots of debate about Delta and non delta wing aircraft. Historically non delta wings like F16,F14,F15,F18 has highest kill ratio in the world. But present day everyone has launched delta wings, Rafale,Euro,LCA,J10,Mirage,etc. Some of critics support the point of having less Delta wings in Pakistan air force, because they have very limited role. Mainly navel warfare. Are we following the concept of successful use of Argentina's Mirage during falkland war, sinking HMS Shaff..
> Why ?...
> 
> 
> Second part of my Question to Sir Murad or anyone, did PAF learn the best use of Mirage after Falkland war or PAF already had the concept, before Argentina.
> ...But Sir Brits gives the argument HMS Shaf was not in function mode and some Brits say,Shaff radar was not capable of catching low flying in comings)



1. Delta wing Aircraft are basically designed for High payload and there for are high speed Aircraft cuz the stall speed is a bit higher.

2. delta wings produces Induced drag ( How ever Canards and Thrust vectoring can catter for that i.e in terms of performance only)

3. The old delta wing Aircraft, i mean the ones not having modren avionic may not perform as good as a non-delta in a close combat ( the reason is induced drag)

4. PAF is very much capable of utilizing its Delta wings ( Mirages are the supreme example of slash and dash tactics)

5. There role is not limited to just a load dumping platform. With a Good AI or ground control , these high speed platforms play hell in close combats.

6. Every structure has its advantages and disadvantages, and we posess a good ratio and a good combo of such structures. So no worries in this aspect

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Muradk

HAIDER said:


> I have seen lots of debate about Delta and non delta wing aircraft. Historically non delta wings like F16,F14,F15,F18 has highest kill ratio in the world. But present day everyone has launched delta wings, Rafale,Euro,LCA,J10,Mirage,etc. Some of critics support the point of having less Delta wings in Pakistan air force, because they have very limited role. Mainly navel warfare. Are we following the concept of successful use of Argentina's Mirage during falkland war, sinking HMS Shaff..
> Why ?...
> 
> 
> Second part of my Question to Sir Murad or anyone, did PAF learn the best use of Mirage after Falkland war or PAF already had the concept, before Argentina.
> ...But Sir Brits gives the argument HMS Shaf was not in function mode and some Brits say,Shaff radar was not capable of catching low flying in comings)



Yes we did learn from FalkL War that man behind the machine does matter, Our cadets were better pilots than them, While doing a course in 
uk they showed us all the Air -to- Air kill. Most of the kills were not above 2gs and most were flying straight, You never flying straight in a Air War.
We at PAF have been flying Mirages 12 years before FalkL , We established UAE airforce, I flew Mirages from France to UAE 3 times. 
During my command of 9 Sqd I had 1 vs 1 Dogfight with Hakilullah Ex COAS than the base commander during the dogfight I pulled 7.6gs one of the most difficult landings in my career the wings got screwed up. That Mirage was grounded for 6 months a replaced by another.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## MastanKhan

Haider,

It is not only the british that use the excuse that HMS SHAF was not ready for what happened to it or it was not capable---

Doesn't this statement sound familiar on our own home turf---you fight battles with what you have purchased and trained on five years ago---when you go to war, you put your best foot forward----

Any old timer remember the first wrestling match between AKRAM PEHLWAN & ANTONIO INOKI and the bull-s-h-i-t that Akram Pehalwan started with before ther fight and the crying game he played after losing the fight0--- " us nay meri ankh mein ungli mari " " fir us nay mera bazoo tor dia " ( he poked my eye ) here is what Aki pehalwan stated shamwelessly---english translation----first he poked me in the eye---then he broke my arm. The only problem with that fight was that Akram was not prepared to fight Inoki---Akram was already too old and had not fought too many matches---oto Inoki was younger stronger and andf very tactful----people can translate it what they feel is fit---and deduct their own conclusions.

And indeed, if the RAF was facing PAF instead of argentinian AF, the royal navy fleet would have been history alongwithg the carrier battle group.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## HAIDER

So, Delta wing can be good bomber, cuz it has better load carrying , but not good interceptor ??????...If mirage on operation then it need wings ??either F7 or F16?.atleast one or two..

Sir , Brit still say, During the Falkland war they had non radar for low flying incoming. And same wording when in 199 Pak mirage breakin American fleet during exercise, Fleet was not equipped with any radar for low flying....But i can't take this it was 1995 and Falkland war was 80s era


----------



## MastanKhan

HAIDER said:


> So, Delta wing can be good bomber, cuz it has better load carrying , but not good interceptor ??????...If mirage on operation then it need wings ??either F7 or F16?.atleast one or two..
> 
> Sir , Brit still say, During the Falkland war they had non radar for low flying incoming. And same wording when in 199 Pak mirage breakin American fleet during exercise, Fleet was not equipped with any radar for low flying....But i can't take this it was 1995 and Falkland war was 80s era



Hi,

You are absolutely correct---radar or no radar---when I enter the field of war---what am I going to say to Sqdrn Ldr Jaswant Singh---oye sardara---I don't have BVR missiles yet---can we fight this war another day---so that we are evenly matched.

Here is what the brits and the yanks are telling---we need to undrstand their language---what they are saying is that even though we have radars---but there is a certain anamoly that happens that the low flying birds can fly through our protective canopy without being seen. Now it is upto the enemy to manipulate that situation to his advantage.

So let me go back---what the brits and yanks were saying was not what they meant---exactly for that reason---you have to put yourself in your ewnemies shoes and think like him----what is your adversary trying to say when he makes a statement---. 

That radar things was a can of big big worms for the brits and the yanks----they were trying to hide it from the russians and others how the security of their carrier battle group could be breached.

The delta wing is the pride of the french air force as well as the paf alongwith australians---the israeli air force---the israelis would have never procured mirages---if the m3/5 was not a great fighter interceptor in its class.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tang0

Alot of the success of delta wings can be attributed to the fact that they are relatively cheaper to create and maintain compared to say the cropped delta wing of the f-16 for example. 
Because of the way shock waves form, they also perform better at high altitudes in supersonic flight. See Boeing: History -- Products -- North American Aviation XB-70A Valkyrie Research Aircraft

Disadvantages include high induced drag during, and the fact that it has a fairly low angle of attack before you stall compared to other military aircraft designs. The eurofighter typhoon does some very clever things with its forward canards and good avionics to help alleviate this problem. This adds cost, which is contrary to one of the reason the delta wing was popular in the first place. 

Long story short, if you need supersonic performance on a budget, and are willing to sacrifice some maneuverability to get it, the delta wing is the way to go.


----------



## Zarbe Momin

*I have a question!*
F-16 block 60 has overblown (swollen) part on both sides behind the cockpit where wings attach to main frame of aircraft, adjacent to wings and airframe. It is also now visible on J-10B airframe. What is this. If this is for fuel storage why we dont design new block of JF-17 like this.


----------



## niaz

I have had many discussions with the aircraft designers at the Farnborough Air shows on the subject of delta versus swept wings. I would therefore like to add a few additional points to the very informative reply of Hon MAximMarz.

Delta wing is structurally stronger than swept wing of an equivalent weight; therefore it is preferred shape for supersonic aircrafts. Even civilian supersonic aircrafts such as Concord and the ill fated Boing SST were of delta wing design. However, due to high induced drag at low speeds, delta winged aircraft loses speed rapidly specially while turning. Up to transonic speeds and at low altitudes; a swept wing aircraft will be more maneuverable and has a definite edge. Some aircrafts such as F-111 and F-14 were designed with folding wings, to take advantage of both the shapes in a single aircraft.

The loss of lift at low speeds can be overcome to some extent by the addition of a small wing at the forward section of the fuselage known as canard. This also acts as a controller of airflow similar to the elevators. 

Advantages of the delta are evident from the fact that nearly all modern high performance aircrafts are of delta wing and those that are not, such F-18; utilize delta in the form extensive leading root edge extension. Sukhoi Mk1 on the other hand has large forward canard in combination with the swept wing.


----------



## araz

MastanKhan said:


> Haider,
> 
> It is not only the british that use the excuse that HMS SHAF was not ready for what happened to it or it was not capable---
> 
> Doesn't this statement sound familiar on our own home turf---you fight battles with what you have purchased and trained on five years ago---when you go to war, you put your best foot forward----
> 
> Any old timer remember the first wrestling match between AKRAM PEHLWAN & ANTONIO INOKI and the bull-s-h-i-t that Akram Pehalwan started with before ther fight and the crying game he played after losing the fight0--- " us nay meri ankh mein ungli mari " " fir us nay mera bazoo tor dia " ( he poked my eye ) here is what Aki pehalwan stated shamwelessly---english translation----first he poked me in the eye---then he broke my arm. The only problem with that fight was that Akram was not prepared to fight Inoki---Akram was already too old and had not fought too many matches---oto Inoki was younger stronger and andf very tactful----people can translate it what they feel is fit---and deduct their own conclusions.
> 
> And indeed, if the RAF was facing PAF instead of argentinian AF, the royal navy fleet would have been history alongwithg the carrier battle group.



mastan Khan
You have reminded me of the good old days. Man what a pallavva.The only addition to your post that I would put forwards, is that, Uk at that time was also a nuclear power, and had we fought them and decimated their fleet, they would just have nuked us. Thatcher threatened to do so to Argentina, if France did not give UK the source codes for Excorcet missiles and france duly obliged. 
WaSalam
Araz


----------



## hj786

Zarbe Momin said:


> *I have a question!*
> F-16 block 60 has overblown (swollen) part on both sides behind the cockpit where wings attach to main frame of aircraft, adjacent to wings and airframe. It is also now visible on J-10B airframe. What is this. If this is for fuel storage why we dont design new block of JF-17 like this.




Those parts are called "conformal fuel tanks" (CFT). Search them up on google. F-15E also has them. They are not visible on the real J-10B's airframe, the J-10B pictures you are talking about are simply computer-generated pictures that were made by a Chinese air force fan. I'm pretty sure JF can be modified with them, but whether JF-17 actually needs them is the question. I think there are higher priorities like getting a more powerful, reliable and economical engine fitted to JF. It is already compatible with aerial refuelling anyway, so I doubt it needs CFT.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MaXimMaRz

hj786 said:


> Those parts are called "conformal fuel tanks" (CFT). Search them up on google. F-15E also has them. They are not visible on the real J-10B's airframe, the J-10B pictures you are talking about are simply computer-generated pictures that were made by a Chinese air force fan. I'm pretty sure JF can be modified with them, but whether JF-17 actually needs them is the question. I think there are higher priorities like getting a more powerful, reliable and economical engine fitted to JF. It is already compatible with aerial refuelling anyway, so I doubt it needs CFT.



1. Agreed , JF-17 doesn't need extra fuel cells , the ROA is sufficient for the missions it will under take. 

2. But it cant be modified for CFT, cuz then u got to modify the CG , Aerfoil and wing loading, and again compromise on the take of weight, and finally make sure that the engine thrust to weight ration is compaitable.....i dont think we are ready to do that just for a few fuel cells.

3. Powerful engines may produce more thrust to weight ratio, but then u got to see the design, excess of thrust produces structural damage

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## qsaark

MaXimMaRz said:


> But it cant be modified for CFT, cuz then u got to modify the CG , Aerfoil and wing loading, and again compromise on the take of weight, and finally make sure that the engine thrust to weight ration is compaitable.....i dont think we are ready to do that just for a few fuel cells.


You think when Lockheed Martin was designing F-16, they already had CFT in mind?


----------



## MaXimMaRz

qsaark said:


> You think when Lockheed Martin was designing F-16, they already had CFT in mind?



No , But once u get such a super hit model and u get so much export money, u can modify it to sell some more blocks.....its all about money for them and they have alot of resources already......we dont , we have to meet our ends first

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## qsaark

MaXimMaRz said:


> No , But once u get such a super hit model and u get so much export money, u can modify it to sell some more blocks.....its all about money for them and they have alot of resources already......we dont , we have to meet our ends first


So technically JF can be modified for CFT or more correctly, CFTs can be designed for existing JF airframe if the resources are available. Correct me if I got it wrong.


----------



## MaXimMaRz

qsaark said:


> So technically JF can be modified for CFT or more correctly, CFTs can be designed for existing JF airframe if the resources are available. Correct me if I got it wrong.



Yeah , i guess it all comes to resources and we dont have many options


----------



## Muradk

Right now there is no such thing for JF-17 may be after a few years, Its not that simple to make a change in the design it takes years to make it perfect Lockh has been working on CFT for the last 7 years.
With full pay load the Fighter uses a lot of fuel while he is taxing out and take off that is why, We take off with limited fuel and refuel from a tanker.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Luftwaffe

Gloster Javalin resurrected or am i wrong but some what LCA resembles this old britsh Jet and Indians have the habit of copying some british designs like HAL HF-24.
LCA = Gloster Javalin + Mirage 2000

GLOSTER JAVALIN


Mirage 2000







Now look at LCA compare it too both Gloster Javalin and M2000


----------



## saiko

luftwaffe said:


> Gloster Javalin resurrected or am i wrong but some what LCA resembles this old britsh Jet and Indians have the habit of copying some british designs like HAL HF-24.
> LCA = Gloster Javalin + Mirage 2000



Everyone copies everyone. And frankly, if your strategic situation is not urgent and you can afford to lag behind a half generation and reverse engineer something and save half the development cost why the hell not?

I would. You would too, if you had to make the tough decisions on defence spending too. Even the might US DoD is not immune to this - how many programs have been axed? And many in late-stages (Commanche, Crusader, etc) of the program too. If i recall correctly they axed Commanche after they spent $2 billion setting up the assembly line.


----------



## zombie:-)

luftwaffe said:


> Gloster Javalin resurrected or am i wrong but some what LCA resembles this old britsh Jet and Indians have the habit of copying some british designs like HAL HF-24.
> LCA = Gloster Javalin + Mirage 2000
> 
> GLOSTER JAVALIN
> 
> 
> Mirage 2000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now look at LCA compare it too both Gloster Javalin and M2000



so whats the point you wanna make ...want another huge war of words ...utter waste of bandwidth


----------



## Hasnain2009

Jf-17 is copy of F-16+MiG29+Mirage2000+....


----------



## Zob

as for CFT see if we getting tankers i don't think we need CFTs that bad....i doubt we will ever expect JF to go deep into enemy airspace for a surgical strike and in peace time to just stay on station i think tankers should do the job. spending on CFT might just not be such a feasible option....i think


----------



## Hasnain2009

Do F-16MLU have CFT's??


----------



## araz

Hasnain2009 said:


> Do F-16MLU have CFT's??



No it does not. You need a higher thrust engine and modification to a plane to accomodate the CFTs .You cant do that to an old plane. As mentioned before our best option is to airfuel on takeoff with aerial refuelling tankers.
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hasnain2009

araz said:


> No it does not. You need a higher thrust engine and modification to a plane to accomodate the CFTs .You cant do that to an old plane. As mentioned before our best option is to airfuel on takeoff with aerial refuelling tankers.
> Araz



Thank u araz!!


----------



## Zarbe Momin

First I asked question about CFT. I thought may be by adding CFT on JF-17, we can save two hard points for BVR missels on wings. But if we increase hard points from 7 to 9, then its ok.


----------



## qsaark

Hi, what is underneath the fuselage of this F-6?


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,


JF 17 is a much smaller plane than the F 16---it will really look chubby with cft's ( will it be as agile with the extra weight and bulge )---as Maxim and Muradk stated it is not needed either at this stage---first job is to get the fleet of 50 airborne and made fully capable to do their jobs. Any further modifications are possibly not wanting at this moment. 

As Muradk stated that with the air tankers in service---the plane will take off with full load and minimal fuel---once airborne---the plane will fill up in the air---. 

Aircraft burn more fuel on take off---one of our pilot colleagues can describe that in detail---like how much the A 5 / F7PG / Mirage 3/5 used on take off.


----------



## hj786

qsaark said:


> Hi, what is underneath the fuselage of this F-6?



One of the modifications to the PAF's F-6 was addition of a conformal fuel tank under the fuselage, that must be it. Old Mig designs like Mig-19 (F-6) have very small range, I guess PAF preferred the conformal fuel tank because they would always have to fly with a droptank anyway. 
I read about one civilian pilot who actually owns and flies old Migs, he commented that by the time you have taxied to the runway you need to refuel.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shehbazi2001

qsaark said:


> Hi, what is underneath the fuselage of this F-6?



Precisely, its the gondola external fuel tank. It seems that it was used only rarely.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## shehbazi2001

While searching the Mirage F1 material, I came across this article on the ACIG, 

Mirage F.1s in Combat

This article mentions Pakistani pilots flying F-1s in Libyan AF. Did they also participate in operations against targets in Chad?. What are the details if this is true? The timeframe that the article mentions is 1981-1983 for Pakistani pariticpation.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## notorious_eagle

I had a question, today i read in the news that Pakistani Forces targetted the terrorists in Orkazai. Which jets are used for operations like these to drop off precision guided bombs?


----------



## blain2

notorious_eagle said:


> I had a question, today i read in the news that Pakistani Forces targetted the terrorists in Orkazai. Which jets are used for operations like these to drop off precision guided bombs?



F-16s for sure and possibly Mirages. Initially even F-7s were used.


----------



## Manticore

*The twin-engined Jian-8IIM is claimed to be better equipped to survive damage than single-engined F-16A/C and Mirage 2000 series. The high-altitude high-speed performance of the Jian-8IIM is superior to the F-16A/C, F-18, and Mirage 2000; and its radar and electronic equipment are better than those of the F-16A and are similar to those of F-16C, F-18,and Mirage 2000-5. By using the new, powerful WP-13B engines, the Jian-8IIM fighter boasts greatly improved low-altitude maneuverability, which is slightly better than that of the F-18 and Mirage 2000-5, but still inferior to that of the F-16*
.
Fighter J-8 Finback Air force Arsenal
J-8 (Jianjiji-8 Fighter aircraft 8) / F-8

my question is that instead of making a new jet.. i.e jf17 why didnt we made a single engined j8 from china? the initial 3 fc1 prototypes have a striking resemblence with j8...


----------



## mean_bird

ANTIBODY said:


> *The twin-engined Jian-8IIM is claimed to be better equipped to survive damage than single-engined F-16A/C and Mirage 2000 series. The high-altitude high-speed performance of the Jian-8IIM is superior to the F-16A/C, F-18, and Mirage 2000; and its radar and electronic equipment are better than those of the F-16A and are similar to those of F-16C, F-18,and Mirage 2000-5. By using the new, powerful WP-13B engines, the Jian-8IIM fighter boasts greatly improved low-altitude maneuverability, which is slightly better than that of the F-18 and Mirage 2000-5, but still inferior to that of the F-16*
> .
> my question is that instead of making a new jet.. i.e jf17 why didnt we made a single engined j8 from china? the initial 3 fc1 prototypes have a striking resemblence with j8...



First of all, where did you get that from?

Secondly, J-8 is primarily an interceptor much like the LCA and not a Multi-Role fighter like JF-17 or F-16. High altitude, high speed do not perform very good in low altitude, low speed and not as maneuverable. Besides, its an old design.


----------



## Imran Khan

notorious_eagle said:


> I had a question, today i read in the news that Pakistani Forces targetted the terrorists in Orkazai. Which jets are used for operations like these to drop off precision guided bombs?



many many times i see PAF use F-7s in fata posible as sir blan say F-16 & MIRAGES also used.sir blan what abut A-5 its ground attack also?.


----------



## Muradk

imran khan said:


> many many times i see PAF use F-7s in fata posible as sir blan say F-16 & MIRAGES also used.sir blan what abut A-5 its ground attack also?.



A-5 YES. F-16S were used but now I mean yesterday they used A-5s and F-7s. It depends on the mission Day or light.


----------



## Imran Khan

yes 100&#37; right sir i see f-7s use are we really need f-16 used in this kind of actions sir i think we have to keep out and far our f-16 from this small actions .


----------



## Manticore

i heard somewhere thatPAF aircrafts were flying all over peshawar mostly over hayatabad for more then 1hour(1037p.m-1145p.m)the pilots were flying at low altitudes... any cause/updates?


----------



## HAIDER

Pakistani F16 are night mission capable ?...because today senate briefing by Halbrooke show they are not . Here is the quote.



> The US envoy said that Pakistan had used F-16 aircraft against the militants in Bajaur and Swat but only during the daylight.
> 
> The US, he said, was now doing midlife upgrading of these F-16s and after the upgrading they could be used more effectively against the extremists.
> 
> Mr Holbrooke said that the DG ISI, who accompanied the presidential delegation to Washington, would stay in the US capital after the delegation left.
> dawn.com


----------



## Patriot

That's for Land Bombing.Pakistan's F16's can perform CAP/A2A Missions 24/7 but for night Air to Ground missions only few are capable AFAIK they have some special pods.Mirage is used for strike platform if i am not wrong and it can bomb in Night or Day.


----------



## blain2

HAIDER said:


> Pakistani F16 are night mission capable ?...because today senate briefing by Halbrooke show they are not . Here is the quote.



Saad is correct! The current ATLIS is only a day/fair weather designation pod. It cannot conduct lasing of targets at night time as a result PGM deliveries cannot be carried out at that time.

The Sniper pod essentially is a FLIR like the DART one on PAF Mirages. If upgraded, the F-16s would be able to carry out strikes at night time as well.


----------



## Zob

balin that means currently we have no night time capable strike platform currently....


----------



## fatman17

Zob said:


> balin that means currently we have no night time capable strike platform currently....



Zarrar Sqn at Kamra is nite-strike capable (Mirage Rose IIIs)!


----------



## Arsalan

its is only a squadron of mirages with night time operational status!

infact there are two types of night capability:
1: to operate in dark, without the help of any star light cbased completely on scientific equipment
2: to operate in moon light

only the squadron of mirages is equiped with instruments to be night time operational!


----------



## Manticore

does jf17 have night time capability?


----------



## Arsalan

ANTIBODY said:


> does jf17 have night time capability?




yes dear!

JF17 is a day/night all weather multirole fighter aircraft!



regards!


----------



## Arsalan

do anyone know which targetting pod the JF17 will be carrying for groung attack role?

it is some LDTP 
"Laser Designator and Targeting Pod (LDTP) is for target illumination and detection with day/ night capabilities."

can anyone provide with some etailed info?

regards!


----------



## tal

Hi,

I hope i am posting this in right forum. I wanted to ask a q regarding drone attacks i would be much interested to know opinion of pak air force guys, ok here it goes suppose india bought same drone models like US is using in Pak and also disguise them like US drones how will it be differentiated from US drones? I am assuming drones are operating from afghanistan.

thanks
tal


----------



## blain2

Zob said:


> balin that means currently we have no night time capable strike platform currently....



No we definitely do. The Mirage IIIs (Rose II/IIIs) are excellent night attack platforms with an excellent FLIR which allows PGM deliveries day/night/adverse weather. Undoubtedly this capability would be further enhanced with Sniper equipped F-16s.


----------



## blain2

fatman17 said:


> Zarrar Sqn at Kamra is nite-strike capable (Mirage Rose IIIs)!



FM Sir,

We have more than a sqn worth of these FLIR equipped Mirages in service. The PAF liked this capability so much during the ROSE II upgrades that additional Mirages were put through the ROSE III upgrades just to get more aircraft with the FLIR capability. 

These Mirages are an amazing force multipliers post ROSEII/III upgrades.


----------



## blain2

tal said:


> Hi,
> 
> I hope i am posting this in right forum. I wanted to ask a q regarding drone attacks i would be much interested to know opinion of pak air force guys, ok here it goes suppose india bought same drone models like US is using in Pak and also disguise them like US drones how will it be differentiated from US drones? I am assuming drones are operating from afghanistan.
> 
> thanks
> tal



You cannot tell whose UAV/drone it is, however you can detect it and take action. The jury is out on where the drones are operating from.


----------



## Muradk

In such situations fast Air Crafts are no good until it uses LDW. We should open up one of our sealed pens which have Harvard T-6 and use 2 0r 3 they are very slow, tuff and can bomb the **** out of the Taliban's, 
Or its time to use K-8 even T-37. The T-6 is a very difficult plane to fly most pilots now a days wount even know how to fly it but we can. I am sure there are pilots from my era who would jump in without questions.
Oh and I just didn't come up with the T-6 idea it was discussed day before yesterday in a high level meeting.


----------



## PAFAce

Muradk said:


> Oh and I just didn't come up with the T-6 idea it was discussed day before yesterday in a high level meeting.



Use T-6s! It would be a wake-up call to the world if we did that. A Korean war era plane to fight a war in the 21st century. The Americans will torch their F-35s if we succeed!

Just kidding ofcourse.


----------



## Muradk

PAFAce said:


> Use T-6s! It would be a wake-up call to the world if we did that. A Korean war era plane to fight a war in the 21st century. The Americans will torch their F-35s if we succeed!
> 
> Just kidding ofcourse.



Americans had every technology in NAM but they were forces to use WII fighters to support there ground troops.


----------



## nik007

I think f16 is much better than jf17. rit?

why cant pak reverse engineer that beauty?


----------



## Muradk

nik007 said:


> I think f16 is much better than jf17. rit?
> 
> why cant pak reverse engineer that beauty?



*Well we did try but the dame thing didn't fly it started laying eggs.*
oh mera bahi if we would have that tech you would be a part of Pakistan by now.


----------



## nik007

Muradk said:


> *Well we did try but the dame thing didn't fly it started laying eggs.*
> oh mera bahi if we would have that tech you would be a part of Pakistan by now.



ARE BABA.....

dint u know,? the chinese had secret access to the f16s. I am sure they did something with that.


----------



## Patriot

nik007 said:


> ARE BABA.....
> 
> dint u know,? the chinese had secret access to the f16s. I am sure they did something with that.


Nice, you seem to have more info then him.(You were probably in liquid form when he was flying F86 over India).Can you give credible
proof that Chinese had access to F16??


----------



## nik007

I read it somewhere .... I'll search

BINGO got it....

unfortunately , i cant paste the source yet.

but here it is

F-16 Falcon Technology in PLAAF Jet

In addition, China has added several features that were directly reverse-engineered from a U.S.-made F-16 Falcon jet fighter provided to Beijing by Pakistan. 

The Pakistani F-16, sold to Islamabad during the 1980s, was given to the PLAAF as part of a secret military trade deal between Pakistan and China. In return for the U.S.-made F-16 jet, Pakistan received a deep discount on the purchase of Chinese-made M-11 ballistic missiles.

The new Chinese J-10 supersonic fighter is designed to take on and defeat U.S.-built F-16 and F-18 fighters that make up the bulk of American airpower. Western sources estimate that Chengdu will manufacture over 1,000 of the delta-winged fighters to replace aging MiG-21 and MiG-19 fighter designs that currently make up the vast majority of China's air force.


----------



## Muradk

saadahmed said:


> Nice, you seem to have more info then him.(You were probably in liquid form when he was flying F86 over India).Can you give credible
> proof that Chinese had access to F16??



 and I thought my answer was funnyno his is a new member so we should give him some space, but I love your answer.
Yes I think to some extend Chinese are very good in buying or stealing blueprints of almost everything. Just take a look at J-10 ahh they did screwup a little in the intake design but rest is good.


----------



## nik007

Mr. Muradk

Mr. saadahmed

please read my above post. about f16 tech going to chinese hands


----------



## Muradk

my friend I was head of Project Falcon So I would know, The info you have provided is news to me.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nik007

Mr. Muradk 

The source is American website newsmax.com article:

Chinese Air Force Gets New Jet 
Charles R. Smith
Friday, Nov. 8, 2002

Perhaps it was kept a secret even from you.

(Although I wonder why it is public now)


----------



## ejaz007

If Chineese had access to the F-16's they would be by now part of every third world airforce. We are not as careless as are portrayed by Americans.

One question for you if we had provided F-16 to China then why is USA willing to provide us even better version of the plane.

Don't believe every thing USA says .


----------



## mean_bird

nik007 said:


> I think f16 is much better than jf17. rit?
> 
> why cant pak reverse engineer that beauty?



Pakistan has the F-16 blk 15 and in the opinion of many including the ex-ACM, the JF-17 is superior to the blk 15 F-16s.

As Muradk has already said, we (pakistan) do not have the technology to reverse engineer it. Our manufacturing industry is simply not that advance. 

If you are talking about airframe and China, then I doubt China needs an F-16 from pakistan for anything they haven't already got from the Israelis through the Lavi. So China has that technology and it is called the J-10. Pakistan has access to it and can buy it anytime but a J-10 costs twice as much as a JF-17.



Muradk said:


> *Well we did try but the dame thing didn't fly it started laying eggs.*



lol, good one


----------



## Patriot

nik007 said:


> Mr. Muradk
> 
> The source is American website newsmax.com article:
> 
> Chinese Air Force Gets New Jet
> Charles R. Smith
> Friday, Nov. 8, 2002
> 
> Perhaps it was kept a secret even from you.
> 
> (Although I wonder why it is public now)


So i take it you trust every other US website whether it's run by United Government or not?Besides Lockheed Martin was satisfied with F16 Security (They checked every year) which is why they offered Block52.


----------



## tal

>>You cannot tell whose UAV/drone it is, however you can detect it and take >>action. The jury is out on where the drones are operating from.

Thanks for replying blain2. I already know that drone can be detected and shot down but it's useless really since u cannot tell which is American and which is Indian.
I am amazed that why indians did'nt tried any thing like this.


----------



## Patriot

tal said:


> >>You cannot tell whose UAV/drone it is, however you can detect it and take >>action. The jury is out on where the drones are operating from.
> 
> Thanks for replying blain2. I already know that drone can be detected and shot down but it's useless really since u cannot tell which is American and which is Indian.
> I am amazed that why indians did'nt tried any thing like this.


They don't have Predeator.Besides if they have doubt regarding it's Identity F16 Pilot can Visual ID it before shooting it down.


----------



## tal

My original q
>>I hope i am posting this in right forum. I wanted to ask a q regarding drone >>attacks i would be much interested to know opinion of pak air force guys, ok here >>it goes suppose india bought same drone models like US is using in Pak and also >>disguise them like US drones how will it be differentiated from US drones? I am >>assuming drones are operating from afghanistan.

Can u visually identify even when it has been disguise?


----------



## Patriot

Pakistan can confirm with US if their drones are in the area..If they fly from east then they are not American's drones besides i don't think India can put US flag's on their drones and i highly doubt America would sell drone tech to any country atm


----------



## mean_bird

tal said:


> My original q
> >>I hope i am posting this in right forum. I wanted to ask a q regarding drone >>attacks i would be much interested to know opinion of pak air force guys, ok here >>it goes suppose india bought same drone models like US is using in Pak and also >>disguise them like US drones how will it be differentiated from US drones? I am >>assuming drones are operating from afghanistan.
> 
> Can u visually identify even when it has been disguise?



tal,

To start with and as many people have said, India doesn't have drones. 

Secondly, it has surfaced from many sources that these drones actually fly from pakistani bases and with full knowledge of our government. So they must be telling our forces in advance before conducting any such operation whether they are flying from pakistan or afghanistan. 

Thirdly, if anything flies even close to the india-pakistan border, it gets detected by radars and you know where these are coming from. If you are suggesting that these are indian drones but flying from afghanistan, then too our intelligence agencies have a pretty good idea who is in afghanistan and what they are doing. India doesn't have ground forces there and you cannot be flying drones out of embassies and not get noticed. 

Finally as noted above, you cannot replicate the whole drone design and be flying with US flags on it. So seeing the above, it is impossible for what you are suggesting to happen.


----------



## HAIDER

How low you can fly ? ....and how low pilot need to fly to evade radar ? Is their any special training in PAF for flying low ?


----------



## Imran Khan

air force call tree hight and some time more then that when tree hight some one fly its hard to detect on radar.am i right sir murad?.


----------



## mean_bird

HAIDER said:


> How low you can fly ? ....and how low pilot need to fly to evade radar ?



I guess something along these lines should be good enough to evade radar or altitude of 100m should avoid detected till the last moment when it is too late. But that is just my guess.









HAIDER said:


> Is their any special training in PAF for flying low ?


Seeing that we have such a territory, I am sure our pilots must be having such trainings. Murad Sahib will be in a better position to comment.


----------



## SQ8

mean_bird said:


> tal,
> 
> To start with and as many people have said, India doesn't have drones.
> 
> Secondly, it has surfaced from many sources that these drones actually fly from pakistani bases and with full knowledge of our government. So they must be telling our forces in advance before conducting any such operation whether they are flying from pakistan or afghanistan.
> 
> Thirdly, if anything flies even close to the india-pakistan border, it gets detected by radars and you know where these are coming from. If you are suggesting that these are indian drones but flying from afghanistan, then too our intelligence agencies have a pretty good idea who is in afghanistan and what they are doing. India doesn't have ground forces there and you cannot be flying drones out of embassies and not get noticed.
> 
> Finally as noted above, you cannot replicate the whole drone design and be flying with US flags on it. So seeing the above, it is impossible for what you are suggesting to happen.



So which country did the searcher UAV flying in our airspace near the Indian border which was taken down by an F-16 during the previous to previous standoff belong to,OR do the other IAI provided Unmanned Aerial Vehicles not qualify as drones?What is a drone by definition then?


----------



## Muradk

tal said:


> My original q
> >>I hope i am posting this in right forum. I wanted to ask a q regarding drone >>attacks i would be much interested to know opinion of pak air force guys, ok here >>it goes suppose india bought same drone models like US is using in Pak and also >>disguise them like US drones how will it be differentiated from US drones? I am >>assuming drones are operating from afghanistan.
> 
> Can u visually identify even when it has been disguise?



Tal Every day Air Defence Command get a list of private, commercial and PAF fighters so they know which and where the object is other wise CAP is on it.
Even if a known fighter goes into a no fly Zone by accident CAP is on his *** to Ascort him out of that Zone.


----------



## Muradk

mean_bird said:


> I guess something along these lines should be good enough to evade radar or altitude of 100m should avoid detected till the last moment when it is too late. But that is just my guess.
> 
> H02iFmosrH4[/media] - F16 Low Level
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing that we have such a territory, I am sure our pilots must be having such trainings. Murad Sahib will be in a better position to comment.



We used to fly 20 to 30 feet above the water in the Valley done it in F-86 , F-6, F-7, F-16, I remember a old actress name Sangita was shooting her movie ( Mouthi ber Chawal ) and me and Andrabi were flying so slow that they were shooting over the rocks we passed and she fainted by the time we landed we got the whole news about what had happend and the film industry is very upset. Just to see who the hell was she we both went and watched the movie when it came out.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## sohailbutt

Sir, Murad, you mentioned about the very low level flight that you and your co-pilots used to carry out sometimes. (that must take a lot of skill, hats off to you and other pilots)

My question is: "Did you guys used to be questioned by the senior officers back at base, as to why did you carry out this low flight?"

and if "YES", "Were you guys ever punished for doing it?"

But, Sir,, in my view this is very dangerous adventure on the part of pilots, you are well aware of the dangers, like bird strikes etc, so "Does PAF nowadays have any restrictions as to what the present pilots can and cannot do? like these low level flights"

I asked lot of questions, hope you donot mind.


----------



## HAIDER

Sir good old days chaffing still effective weapon against radar and radar guide missiles..AA


----------



## mean_bird

Sohail,

Murad Sahib is saying that they used to do so because of the question being raised...i.e...fly so low that you cannot be detected by enemy radar. Its a standard practice and even US bombers use to practice after one of their plane was shot down from 71,000ft by the Russians. Before that, the practice was to fly so high as to be out of reach. 

They use to practice it as part of a tactics not as disobeying orders or for fun.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## HAIDER

Ever commanding officer ever use fowl lingo during mission briefing ?...For example if ...India intruders....lolzz


----------



## Muradk

sohailbutt said:


> Sir, Murad, you mentioned about the very low level flight that you and your co-pilots used to carry out sometimes. (that must take a lot of skill, hats off to you and other pilots)
> 
> My question is: "Did you guys used to be questioned by the senior officers back at base, as to why did you carry out this low flight?"
> 
> and if "YES", "Were you guys ever punished for doing it?"
> 
> But, Sir,, in my view this is very dangerous adventure on the part of pilots, you are well aware of the dangers, like bird strikes etc, so "Does PAF nowadays have any restrictions as to what the present pilots can and cannot do? like these low level flights"
> 
> I asked lot of questions, hope you donot mind.



In our days we did a lot of things by our selves do the mission and then have fun Swat was our favorite destination flying inside the valley WHAT A RUSH normally you were not allowed but 2 war vets flying no one messed with you plus if you are a Sqd Cmd you are the boss. I used to take everyone of my students through the valley, after that then came a time when flight safety was really drilled into your brains, Me and my big mouth told an AVM and I a Sqd Ldr at that time IF YOU ARE SO WORRIED ABOUT FLIGHT SAFETY STOP FLYING 
Now a days senior pilots do what ever they feel like but junior pilots nope. Things are pretty strict but good pilots who are well known for there flying still do what we used to do.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## tal

I think i should be more clear with my question I never assume that they were flying from India. India is using Afghanistan to destabilize pak so they can do that too IMHO. Second i think US drones operating in Pakistan don't have any flags on it, correct me if i am wrong? What would u ppl say if drone attack intelligence is leaked it can be used by other parties right? btw thanks for replying everybody


----------



## Munir

tal said:


> I think i should be more clear with my question I never assume that they were flying from India. India is using Afghanistan to destabilize pak so they can do that too IMHO. Second i think US drones operating in Pakistan don't have any flags on it, correct me if i am wrong? What would u ppl say if drone attack intelligence is leaked it can be used by other parties right? btw thanks for replying everybody



India is worried that it is surrounded by opponents... All armed by China. Pakistan, China, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Myanmar etc etc... All it can do is use a destroyed nation like Afghanistan to surround Pakistan. They did the same with the paria Iran but that did not work wel cause Idia voted against Iran about Nuclear program while loved to have US nuclear help...

Besides that... With Indian programs failing there is nothing else left then acting like a terrorist.


----------



## x_man

sohailbutt said:


> Sir, Murad, you mentioned about the very low level flight that you and your co-pilots used to carry out sometimes. (that must take a lot of skill, hats off to you and other pilots)
> 
> My question is: "Did you guys used to be questioned by the senior officers back at base, as to why did you carry out this low flight?"
> 
> and if "YES", "Were you guys ever punished for doing it?"
> 
> But, Sir,, in my view this is very dangerous adventure on the part of pilots, you are well aware of the dangers, like bird strikes etc, so "Does PAF nowadays have any restrictions as to what the present pilots can and cannot do? like these low level flights"
> 
> I asked lot of questions, hope you donot mind.




Military pilots are trained and suppose to fly low for various reasons. For that they are trained in a very systematic way while being made aware of all the low level hazards that they might face. Its a risky flying no doubt but it all comes as a second nature once you are adequately and properly trained.

The low level flying training in PAF starts from the academy. The qualified instructors demonstrate the students first and then expect them to do it by themselves. There is a good chunk of Low level Navigation syllabus in academy where you initially start to fly around 500 feet AGL ( above ground level) and once comfortable, subsequently lower your height to 150 feet AGL ( or even further lower). By the time student pilots graduate from academy, join Fighter conversion units, qualify operational conversion and finally join their first fighter squadron, Low Level flying is second nature to them.

Over the decades, flying operations have matured and changed dramatically. As Sir MK has stated that flight safety has taken the front seat and todays pilots cannot think of doing many things that their predecessors did. Every aircraft is equipped with transponder, there is a good network of low level radars and hence there are many eyes that are monitoring that what you are doing up there and where you are going. Aircrafts and pilot training have become very expensive and no one wants to risk losing a life or a machine while doing something stupid and utterly unnecessary. While pilots still fly at ultra low level altitudes as operations demand so but its all very organised and scrutinised. 

However, sometimes people still do silly things like buzzing over towns or unauthorised flying but they cant get away from the bamboo that follows later.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Manticore

please can somebody start a *thread with bvr comparisons *[techniacal and practical aspects]regarding aim120c/d ,adder /sd10 1/2 ,mica/meteor , darter, pl12, pl13 bvrs??
does the adder enjoy supremecy over 120c? etc
.
@meanbird.. you have a very good knowledge perhaps you could start this thread?


----------



## A1Kaid

I have a question, what is Pakistan's BVR capability as of now? 

Please don't spill any guts or sensitive info...Just looking for an informative answer.

If you could also provide a regional comparison of nation's with BVR capabilities that would be nice too. 

Thanks


----------



## Luftwaffe

sohailbutt check this out...Mods something related to low flying if posted wrong u can remove it thanks..


----------



## a1b2c145

A1Kaid said:


> I have a question, what is Pakistan's BVR capability as of now?
> 
> Please don't spill any guts or sensitive info...Just looking for an informative answer.
> 
> If you could also provide a regional comparison of nation's with BVR capabilities that would be nice too.
> 
> Thanks



As to BVR, I am afraid, i have a very pessimistic view~~~

BRV is not only the radar' s problem but also a big test on missile 's range! anyway, this 's is a very complex and comprehensive question


----------



## SQ8

A1Kaid said:


> I have a question, what is Pakistan's BVR capability as of now?
> 
> Please don't spill any guts or sensitive info...Just looking for an informative answer.
> 
> If you could also provide a regional comparison of nation's with BVR capabilities that would be nice too.
> 
> Thanks



One line answer: 40% force is BVR capable, However no missile available(So we have a 0% capability as of now Tuesday May12th 2009 7:07 PST ).


----------



## nik007

santro said:


> One line answer: 40% force is BVR capable, However no missile available(So we have a 0% capability as of now Tuesday May12th 2009 7:07 PST ).



u must be terminator


----------



## mttester

Saudi Arabia is the best Islamic Friend of Pakistan. he gave gift of F-05 to Pakistan in 1971
u may visit bolpakistan.com to get more information and history of F-05 and Pakistan Saudi Arabia relations


----------



## Muradk

mttester said:


> Saudi Arabia is the best Islamic Friend of Pakistan. he gave gift of F-05 to Pakistan in 1971
> u may visit bolpakistan.com to get more information and history of F-05 and Pakistan Saudi Arabia relations



Whats F-05?


----------



## All-Green

Muradk said:


> Whats F-05?



The James bond of the Aircraft world?


I think he may be referring to F-5...
though that was Jordan and not Saudi Arabia.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

nik007 said:


> u must be terminator



Still looking for john connor to tell him.. "It is time"


----------



## Manticore

HAL_Tejas 
Talk:HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
.
IS THIS THE UPDATED VERSION>?
CHECK OUT .. ALL THE WRONG INFO REGARDING LCA in wikedipia is discussed here
.
indians might get really pissed after reading this..


----------



## SQ8

Read it.. Looks like another feud over Wikipedia article owner ship.. I think its actually a problem that anybody can edit Wikipedia.(Although the changes are approved by the site operators).
From what I can gather it probably reflects what I said earlier about the bird. Its the first time they are doing this on thier own completely and they tried to put in too much. Should have been flown light, basic glass cockpit and should have planned for a foreign engine from the start, Flight characteristics documented and then move onto avionics,composites.. etc. Kind of like ACM Mushaf did, He knew radar and other avionics were holding the thunder up, so he pushed hard for the aircraft to be built and flown first. Avionics and the like can be integrated later. And a project that was half dead suddenly came to life and flew in less than 5 years.
But.. The Indians did learn how not to make a 4.5 jet, so while the posts in the page do suggest the Tejas in trouble. IT does also mean that the tooling, Electronics and software have been tested. So.. while they an ditch this project and call it a lost cause. The things they learn from it can be used for the MCA or any other aircraft they produce. 
Btw.. does anyone have that F-16 picture.. the one with top gun on the nose??


----------



## Muradk

All-Green said:


> The James bond of the Aircraft world?
> 
> 
> I think he may be referring to F-5...
> though that was Jordan and not Saudi Arabia.



KSA has never given Pakistan any Military help on the other hand during, Bhutto, Auyb and Zia's era, We and the Chinese have done a lot for there Forces.


----------



## HAIDER

must be talking about Iranian F5 ....its in pic gallery with Pak flag on tail.


----------



## Muradk

HAIDER said:


> must be talking about Iranian F5 ....its in pic gallery with Pak flag on tail.



Haider I flew the F-5 but we didn't put Pakistani flag on them, that PS.
I flew the F-5 for maybe 10 min than we were ordered to land ASAP because it didn't have the ejection Cartridges in them. After that we never flew them and returned them with thanks.


----------



## HAIDER

Sir, how was experience . Cuz i never seen any kill record of this plane.


----------



## Muradk

HAIDER said:


> Sir, how was experience . Cuz i never seen any kill record of this plane.



I was on Sabers when I was told to fly it, It is a useless fighter in other words pathetic. Good for training purposes only.


----------



## hj786

Muradk said:


> I was on Sabers when I was told to fly it, It is a useless fighter in other words pathetic. Good for training purposes only.



Sir, you obviously will know about the F-20 Tigershark (an advanced F-5) being offered to Pakistan with licence production before F-16 was cleared for sale. Of course PAF pushed for the F-16. My questions are: 

- Assuming no sanctions, would the F-20 have been a good choice for Pakistan rather than F-16? (I think F-16 was originally bought to take out India's nuclear facilities, so no because F-20 would not have enough range.)
- Would F-20 have been a good choice in addition to F-16? I think yes because of PAF's efforts to develop F-7 Sabre II (Project Sabre II) and JF-17, which are both similar in many ways to F-20)

Also, can you tell us more about Project Sabre II or show me any good sources you have found about it? From what I have found so far (very little), I know it was an F-7 with side-intakes, proper nose radome for F-20 Tigershark radar, extra hardpoint under each wing for a AIM-9L, new canopy design similar to F-20. Project was cancelled because the upgrade was expensive and F-7P was found to be good enough to serve alongside the F-16, plus America's sanctions on China after 1989 Tienanmen Square incident made the American contractors for the project pull out. 

Sorry for long post, I understand if you do not have time to reply!


----------



## Muradk

hj786 said:


> Sir, you obviously will know about the F-20 Tigershark (an advanced F-5) being offered to Pakistan with licence production before F-16 was cleared for sale. Of course PAF pushed for the F-16. My questions are:
> 
> - Assuming no sanctions, would the F-20 have been a good choice for Pakistan rather than F-16? (I think F-16 was originally bought to take out India's nuclear facilities, so no because F-20 would not have enough range.)
> - Would F-20 have been a good choice in addition to F-16? I think yes because of PAF's efforts to develop F-7 Sabre II (Project Sabre II) and JF-17, which are both similar in many ways to F-20)
> 
> Also, can you tell us more about Project Sabre II or show me any good sources you have found about it? From what I have found so far (very little), I know it was an F-7 with side-intakes, proper nose radome for F-20 Tigershark radar, extra hardpoint under each wing for a AIM-9L, new canopy design similar to F-20. Project was cancelled because the upgrade was expensive and F-7P was found to be good enough to serve alongside the F-16, plus America's sanctions on China after 1989 Tienanmen Square incident made the American contractors for the project pull out.
> 
> Sorry for long post, I understand if you do not have time to reply!



I will go over it in details while you read this 


High-performance jet fighter, fully armed with missiles, guns. ECM equipment, fresh paint (stars and bars painted over), single seat, 97% reliability rate, will outclimb, outturn F-16, outrun F-14, low fuel burn (relatively), all digital avionics, radar, terrain following, INS, GPS, Tacan, used only for testing and sales promotion. Now in storage.
Contact Northrop Corp. Will trade for Mig-25 and home address of Air Force Acquisition officer.

* ad found in 'Pacific Flyer' magazine, shortly after the F-20 program was cancelled.*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shehbazi2001

Muradk said:


> Haider I flew the F-5 but we didn't put Pakistani flag on them, that PS.
> I flew the F-5 for maybe 10 min than we were ordered to land ASAP because it didn't have the ejection Cartridges in them. After that we never flew them and returned them with thanks.




Can you please mention that when did the F-5s arrive? I mean during the 1971 war or after it. 

On the following page of US National Security Archive, we find the transfer date as 29 December, which is well after the cease-fire of 16 December 1971.

The Tilt: The U.S. and the South Asian Crisis of 1971



> Document 44
> United States Embassy (Tehran), Cable, F-5 Aircraft to Pakistan, Secret, December 29, 1971, 3 pp. Includes DOD cable.
> Source: NPMP, NSC Files, Indo-Pak War, Box 575
> 
> Embassy Iran reports that three F-5A Fighter aircraft, reportedly from the United States, had been flown to Pakistan to assist in the war efforts against India.


----------



## HAIDER

Pilots and Sir Murad....what you think about avionic after looking at this Chengdu JF17 ad...is it very much similar to F16,,,can't say anything about performance..


----------



## Muradk

shehbazi2001 said:


> Can you please mention that when did the F-5s arrive? I mean during the 1971 war or after it.
> 
> On the following page of US National Security Archive, we find the transfer date as 29 December, which is well after the cease-fire of 16 December 1971.
> 
> The Tilt: The U.S. and the South Asian Crisis of 1971



F-5 came after the war Feb 22nd 1972


----------



## Wingman

Muradk said:


> The F-5s has a funny story behind it.
> Flt Lt Naeem took off and after about 2 min we see the OC flying running towards the Flight ops.
> "So what happend Sir" "Tell that ediot to land the dame plane it does not have an ejection system installed in it we just found out they just told us a few min ago".  so actualy flytime of F-5 over a PAF base is 4 min. appox.



Sir Murad, could u please share some stories like this one u just mentioned above... or start a new forum to invite people to share their experinces like dealing with emergencies, arrival of other country's airplanes & their pilots.... like in 1978 US f-15 came in pakistan...etc


----------



## Muradk

dreamer said:


> Sir Murad, could u please share some stories like this one u just mentioned above... or start a new forum to invite people to share their experinces like dealing with emergencies, arrival of other country's airplanes & their pilots.... like in 1978 US f-15 came in pakistan...etc



F-15 came to Pakistan a lot of times, The most important thing was we always had a better kill ratio with our fighters against F-15 and I am not talking about F-16s, but Mirages , F-6, F-7p. May be it was luck may be tactics. When I went against it I thing both luck and tactics were on my side that day the F-15 pilots were too confident and used to make lot of errors thinking its a superior fighter.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Muradk

HAIDER said:


> Pilots and Sir Murad....what you think about avionic after looking at this Chengdu JF17 ad...is it very much similar to F16,,,can't say anything about performance..
> 4-r1gXm9h6g[/media] - ??????????



The HUD Display is all from 102 flying over kamra not china they have mixed the video up.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mean_bird

Muradk said:


> F-15 came to Pakistan a lot of times, The most important thing was we always had a better kill ratio with our fighters against F-15 and I am not talking about F-16s, but Mirages , F-6, F-7p. May be it was luck may be tactics. When I went against it I thing both luck and tactics were on my side that day the F-15 pilots were too confident and used to make lot of errors thinking its a superior fighter.



Saudi F-15 ( I mean pilots) or USAF F-15? and what year approximately was that?


----------



## Manticore

hi! i scrolled through the Pakistan AWACs/AEW&Cs Aircrafts thread.. but couldnt find a definative post which shows 
1]the paf specific chanes in Erieye as compared to other countries.. suppose say brazil?.

2]In the newer posts on net, also the Erieye is called AEW&Cs.. .what was done to upgrade standard Erieye to make it become AEW&Cs from just AWACs..what upgrades were done?[was the seating arrangement increased in the front only?]

3]paf also has the same upgraded AEW&Cs

4]how much effect will Erieye ' AEW&Cs' have against phalcon?
thanks


----------



## sohailbutt

Questions to Professionals!

I was thinking recently about the ongoing war in few of our troubled Northern areas, and I was also thinking about the usefulness of an AC-130 gunship that PAK can possibly use to deliver a bigger knock out punch in addition to the one that it is already giving to the taliban guys.

As you already know that AC-130's have performed support missions in Iraq and Afghanistan and taken out a lot of bad guys in areas difficult to reach, like remote mountainous regions, so I have really 2 questions not just one;

1. Is it feasible for PAK to go for some of these AC-130 gunships given the scenario we are facing today?

2. Also if it goes for them, how many aircraft do you think would be enough for PAK?


----------



## Jabar 1

sohailbutt said:


> Questions to Professionals!
> 
> I was thinking recently about the ongoing war in few of our troubled Northern areas, and I was also thinking about the usefulness of an AC-130 gunship that PAK can possibly use to deliver a bigger knock out punch in addition to the one that it is already giving to the taliban guys.
> 
> As you already know that AC-130's have performed support missions in Iraq and Afghanistan and taken out a lot of bad guys in areas difficult to reach, like remote mountainous regions, so I have really 2 questions not just one;
> 
> 1. Is it feasible for PAK to go for some of these AC-130 gunships given the scenario we are facing today?
> 
> 2. Also if it goes for them, how many aircraft do you think would be enough for PAK?



We already have 2 modified by Peru, notice the Gatling gun space on the C-130 when it came to UK painted with relief photos. 1 in Karachi and 1 in chaklala. Right now they are busy with relief camps dropping food.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## qsaark

Jabar 1 said:


> We already have 2 *modified by Peru*, notice the Gatling gun space on the C-130 when it came to UK painted with relief photos. 1 in Karachi and 1 in chaklala. Right now they are busy with relief camps dropping food.


So we have come to this low that we got our C-130s modified by Peru! interesting progress.


----------



## Jabar 1

qsaark said:


> So we have come to this low that we got our C-130s modified by Peru! interesting progress.



I feel sorry for people like your self who say stuff without knowing anything about it. Most Air Forces send there fleet to Peru for structural improvements, avionics upgrades and overall. 
Lockheed has a set up over there since 1984 so different forces can send there Charlie's over there Cheap labor.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## blain2

mean_bird said:


> Saudi F-15 ( I mean pilots) or USAF F-15? and what year approximately was that?



USAF F-15s. 1978 and after.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muradk

blain2 said:


> USAF F-15s. 1978 and after.



F-15 B and C 1979 Karachi came from KSA but were USAF. 
1986 A and D

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## qsaark

Jabar 1 said:


> I feel sorry for people like your self who say stuff without knowing anything about it. Most Air Forces send there fleet to Peru for structural improvements, avionics upgrades and overall.
> Lockheed has a set up over there since 1984 so different forces can send there Charlie's over there Cheap labor.


You don't have to feel sorry, because this is not my arena. I had no clue that Lockheed had a setup in Peru. Now I know, thank you. Next time, please provide with little more information, not everybody on this forum has a military background. The confusion could have been avoided if your sentence was like this "We already have 2 modified by Lockheed facility in Peru".


----------



## blain2

ANTIBODY said:


> hi! i scrolled through the Pakistan AWACs/AEW&Cs Aircrafts thread.. but couldnt find a definative post which shows
> 1]the paf specific chanes in Erieye as compared to other countries.. suppose say brazil?.



Many differences. Some we know about, others are obviously not known. The biggest difference is the PAF's extended coverage requirement which is up to ~360 degrees now. Secondly, we have 5 operator consoles on the aircraft which were not available in the early versions. Thirdly, our aircraft have different ECM/ECCM gear than those that are on board the Hellenic AF's Erieyes.




> 2]In the newer posts on net, also the Erieye is called AEW&Cs.. .what was done to upgrade standard Erieye to make it become AEW&Cs from just AWACs..what upgrades were done?[was the seating arrangement increased in the front only?]



Nothing has been done. The aircraft category has undergone a change. Now all such aircraft are termed AEW&C instead of AWAC. This is because there has been a generational change in the abilities of such aircraft. The current term is AEW&C. 


> 3]paf also has the same upgraded AEW&Cs



Yes. Ours are the SAAB Erieye AEW&C aircraft. Some officers and old timers will still refer to the aircraft as AWACS...that is because they are used to that terminology. 


> 4]how much effect will Erieye ' AEW&Cs' have against phalcon?
> thanks


[/QUOTE]

Not sure what this question means. Each platform has different capabilities.

Some more details from an earlier article:


Saab 2000 AEW&C Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft, Sweden

The Saab 2000 AEW&C airborne early warning and control aircraft is a variant of the Saab 2000 regional transport turboprop aircraft equipped with the spine-mounted Saab Systems Erieye PS-890 side-looking reconnaissance radar.

The first customer for the Saab 2000 AEW&C, the Pakistan Fiza'ya (the Pakistan Air Force), placed the order on Saab, based in Stockholm, in June 2006. The first of five aircraft was rolled out in April 2008 and is scheduled to enter service in 2009. Thailand announced the selection of the Saab 2000 AEW&C in June 2007.

The aircraft, fully equipped for airborne early warning and control, can also be used for national security missions, border control, airborne command and control, disaster management coordination and for emergency air traffic control.


Saab 2000 construction
Saab Surveillance Systems is the lead contractor for the Saab 2000 AEW&C programme. Saab Aerotech is responsible for the development and modification of the Saab 2000 regional aircraft to the AEW&C configuration. Six other Saab business units are also contracted for major elements of the programme.

The outer wing sections have been strengthened, as has the roof of the fuselage, to accommodate the weight of the Erieye antenna and its housing. The vertical tail area has been increased to provide improved stabilisation.

Main cabin
The main cabin is fitted with five mission operator consoles on the starboard side. The windows on the starboard side of the main cabin have been removed. The cabin is air-conditioned and fitted with an active noise cancellation system.

The aft section of the main cabin accommodates fuel tanks and mission equipment. Two auxiliary fuel tanks are installed on the starboard side in the mid fuselage section immediately aft of the mission consoles.

The mission operator consoles perform: system and sensor management; mission planning and simulation; track data processing; asset management and control; identification and allocation. The display systems incorporate digital maps and use high-resolution flat-panel colour displays and touch input display controls. The main cabin aft section also accommodates the electronic warfare equipment, the Erieye equipment and the Erieye power units.

Radar
Saab Microwave Systems (formerly Ericsson) is the lead contractor for the Erieye surveillance radar. The Erieye radar is operational on a number of other aircraft including the Saab 340, Embraer R-99 and Embraer EMB-145. Erieye is an active phased array pulse Doppler radar operating in the 3.1GHz to 3.3GHz band. The radar is operational from three minutes after take-off and during climb and provides an effective surveillance area of 500,000km&#178;.

The Erieye radar has an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350km against a fighter aircraft sized target in dense hostile electronic warfare environments and at low target altitudes. The system is capable of tracking multiple air and sea target over the horizon and provides above 20km altitude coverage, 360&#176; coverage and has sea surveillance capability. The radar incorporates an identification friend or foe interrogator. The system comprises an active phased array pulse Doppler radar with a secondary surveillance radar.

The fixed dual sided electronically scanned antenna array is installed in a rectangular housing, dorsally mounted above the fuselage.


Electronic warfare suite

The aircraft's electronic warfare suite is based on the Saab Avitronics HES-21 electronic support measures (ESM) and self-protection suite. The HES-21 also provides a ground-based support system (EGSS), which provides mission data for the aircraft electronic warfare system and for analysis of recorded data.

Electronic support measures

The electronic support measures (ESM) system comprises digital narrow band and wide band receivers and associated antennae, providing close to 100 &#37; probability of intercept (POI). The digital receiver is equipped with interferometer antenna arrays.

The ESM obtains the electronic order of battle (EOB) data and intercepts, characterises and identifies signals, defines their direction of arrival, generating and displaying warning information. The ESM system operates autonomously and allows real time ESM analysis and presentation to the ESM operator on board the aircraft. ESM data is recorded during missions for post mission tactical and technical analysis. Information is transferred to other onboard systems including the command and control system and the radio data link-controller.

The radar receivers cover low band (7GHz to 2GHz), mid band (2GHz to 18GHz) and high band (28GHz to 40GHz).

The digital RF receiver provides very high sensitivity and selectivity and uses fast Fourier transforms (FFT) and channelisation signal processing techniques. The ESM's wide band and narrow band receivers provide 360&#176; coverage, and close to 100% probability of intercept. The system provides high sensitivity and selectivity in dense and hostile signal environments.

Self-protection system

The self-protection system (SPS) comprises: defensive aids control system, radar warning, laser warning, missile approach warning and chaff and flare dispenser systems. The self-protection suite provides selection and, in automatic mode, the initiation of the chaff and countermeasures sequences.

The laser warning system is based on the Saab Avitronics LWS-310 laser warner operating in the 0.5 to 17 microns wavelength bands. Spatial and spectral coverage is provided by an array of three sensors on each side of the aircraft.

The missile launch and approach warner (MAW) is based on the Saab Avitronics MAW-300, which can simultaneously monitor and track up to eight threats. It has four sensors, two on each side, and each with 110&#176; azimuthal coverage to provide the overlapped 360&#176; spatial coverage.

The chaff and flare dispensing system (CFDS) comprises a dispenser control unit, (CFDC) with a cockpit mounted display and control panel, defensive aids suite computer with a threat library database, two BOL electromechanical dispensers and six BOP pyrotechnical dispensers.

The BOL dispenser is a high-capacity, 160-cartridges, electro-mechanical chaff dispenser. The BOL dispensers are installed in the fairings under the wingtip-mounted radar warning pods. The dispenser incorporates vortex generators which provide chaff blooming characteristics and a chaff cloud Doppler response.

The BOP dispenser is a pyrotechnic dispenser carrying Nato standard rectangular cartridges or magazines of 39 1in&#178; cartridges. The dispenser has the capability to dispense different ammunition types concurrently. The BOP dispensers are housed on each side of the underside of the fuselage to the aft of the wings.

Engine

The aircraft is fitted with two Rolls-Royce AE 2100A turboprop engines developing 3,095kW.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muradk

qsaark said:


> You don't have to feel sorry, because this is not my arena. I had no clue that Lockheed had a setup in Peru. Now I know, thank you. Next time, please provide with little more information, not everybody on this forum has a military background. The confusion could have been avoided if your sentence was like this "We already have 2 modified by Lockheed facility in Peru".



MY BAD SORRY. He asked me the question I should have been more clear about the details

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

Jabar 1 said:


> *We already have 2 modified by Peru, notice the Gatling gun space on the C-130 when it came to UK painted with relief photos.* 1 in Karachi and 1 in chaklala. Right now they are busy with relief camps dropping food.



any pictures to verify this claim!
Pakistan is not listed as a AC-130 operator!


----------



## criminal.justice

New Delhi, August 07, 2007 - Indian intelligence agencies on Tuesday categorically rejected newspaper reports about the detention of underworld don Dawood Ibrahim and some of his henchmen by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence in Karachi. 

The intelligence agencies, which have been tracking Dawood all this while, say it is highly improbable that Dawood and his henchmen have been taken into custody by the ISI. "There is no basis for these reports," they say.

These agencies have, however, confirmed to CNN-IBN that the gangster is very much in Karachi, and not in Quetta as reported in sections of the media on Tuesday.

Newspaper reports on Tuesday claimed Dawood has been taken into custody by the ISI along with his trusted lieutenant Chhota Shakeel and the 1993 Mumbai blasts mastermind Tiger Memon. 

The reports claimed that the trio was rounded up last Thursday from their hideout near the Pak-Afghan border. The three are currently being held at a safe-house on the outskirts of Quetta, they say.

The reports described the ISI move as a desperate move by the Pakistani intelligence agency to save face of the Musharraf regime amid mounting US pressure to arrest these criminals. 

The Indian intelligence, however, trashed these reports. They, however, confirmed that the don was indeed injured in a gambling brawl on Monday. The underworld don, India's most wanted fugitive, was shot in his left leg when a scuffle broke out between him and his fellow gamblers &#8212; Firoz Gitto, Firoz Dausa and Black Prince. 

The incident took place in the penthouse of Regent Crown Plaza Hotel in Karachi. The hotel belongs to infamous gambler Firrazudin Baweza. 

For years now, India has been claiming that Dawood is indeed in Pakistan and he has been enjoying the full support of the ISI. From time to time, New Delhi has also furnished proofs to Islamabad about Dawood's presence in Karachi and demanded that he should be handed over to India, as per ibnlive.com.

On its part, Pakistan has always denied the presence of these people in its territory.

Last week, US endorsed the view of India that Dawood was indeed in Pakistan after the FBI and US drug enforcement agencies laid their hands on evidence that proved Dawood's role as a facilitator of the al-Qaeda and his complete control over the international drug syndicate.


----------



## MastanKhan

unneccessary----post is deleted

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muradk

fatman17 said:


> any pictures to verify this claim!
> Pakistan is not listed as a AC-130 operator!



Yar the photos are in our gallery.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Muradk

post is deleted


----------



## z9-ec

qsaark said:


> So we have come to this low that we got our C-130s modified by Peru! interesting progress.



I consider this post as malicious. Please do not forget that we have the brightest minds working to achieve the best. They take every consideration in to account before a decision is made within the limited resources the government offers. Further more, LM and Boeing have several facilities outside US including Pakistan for it's commercial aircrafts. PAC manufactures aviation parts for Boeing 747, 767 and 777 aircrafts.


----------



## Jabar 1

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> You are new on this board---a little more respect to the posters will be appreciated in your replies.
> 
> Qsaark is an extremely respected member on this board. Thankyou. MK



Qsaark Friend I am sorry for being rude, I was in a totally different state of mind when I replied and hope you will forgive me. I hope we will end up as very good friends as a token of friendship please send me your email through pm, Will send you a collectors photo of JF-17 Just for you.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Imran Khan

Muradk said:


> I am sorry I just read this and yes you are right I apologize on his behalf Qsaark . It will be taken care off and will not happen again for his sake.



no sorry from you sir its sir jabbar statement and he already say sorry .you are my favorite boss  please sit on highest seat.


----------



## HAIDER

Yesterday news, Dutch sold their recently MLU F16s to Chile. Why Pakistan didn't come forward for the bid ?


----------



## Muradk

HAIDER said:


> Yesterday news, Dutch sold their recently MLU F16s to Chile. Why Pakistan didn't come forward for the bid ?



Haider we can't buy American fighters without there permission, I would be surprise if we get anything from Uncle Sam.


----------



## SQ8

We needed permission from the US Congress just to sell our older T-37's to Bangladesh.


----------



## Imran Khan

I don't think so .there is huge strategic difference between f-16 and t-37


----------



## Arsalan

imran khan said:


> I don't think so .there is huge strategic difference between f-16 and t-37



well sir regardless of the difference in there abilities, they are US origin planea and we cannot do anything to them without uncle sams permission, selling them is impossible with out there permission!!! 

that is why i am against US equipment!!

i wish the same policy continues with indians and that surely will become a HUGEE problem for them


----------



## Imran Khan

you right but there is dirty politcs involve there .US blackmail US sanction an US broke deals after paid.its US history we have to learn from history.i am pretty fan of falcone but i see with open eyes USA never delever them to pakistan.


----------



## MastanKhan

z9-ec said:


> I consider this post as malicious. Please do not forget that we have the brightest minds working to achieve the best. They take every consideration in to account before a decision is made within the limited resources the government offers. Further more, LM and Boeing have several facilities outside US including Pakistan for it's commercial aircrafts. PAC manufactures aviation parts for Boeing 747, 767 and 777 aircrafts.




H Z9,

My good man, it is not a malicious post---PAC does not manufacture parts in the sense that I get from your post---PAC fabricates them from the machines they have purchased from the u s, technology that they have learnt from the u s, personale that have been trained in the u s or in pakistan by the u s personale---.

The brightest of the minds need to pointed and directed towards the right direction for them, to give appropriate results---at the end of the day---we will be judged by the results and not by our resources.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MastanKhan

imran khan said:


> you right but there is dirty politcs involve there .US blackmail US sanction an US broke deals after paid.its US history we have to learn from history.i am pretty fan of falcone but i see with open eyes USA never delever them to pakistan.





Hi Imran Khan,

You are absolutely correct in your assessment---but the onus falls upon us to counter the threat of u s sanctions before hand---don't you think that it is not appropriate to blame the u s all the time for its sanctions----don't you think that it becomes our responsibility more so, if we get entrapped for the upteenth time.

What do you expect if you put your hand on the back of a scorpion----you get stung---one time---ok---but if happens the tenth time---should we be telling anyone about the sanctions at all---don't you think that we would be the butt of jokes for everyone listening.

For next time---get equipment in advance---and pay upon delivery----or as I stated one time----LEARN TO TRAVEL THE DIFFERENT ROAD---learn to travel the road leading to PARIS---FRANCE

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## mean_bird

imran khan said:


> you right but there is dirty politcs involve there .US blackmail US sanction an US broke deals after paid.its US history we have to learn from history.i am pretty fan of falcone but i see with open eyes USA never delever them to pakistan.



I agree. 

But the better idea would have been to not go the US way in the first place i.e order the 18 blk-52. Just get the 60MLU kits and have it done by whoever was willing to do it at the earliest. There are some advantages of going for 18 new F-16s since we have operated the plane for so long, have all the training and infrastructure and operated around 32 of them as compared to going for just 18 planes of a totally different platform.

Considering just the upgrade for those Mirages are costing $20m a copy, I don't think that would be an affordable option for us unless UAE is selling them real cheap for some strange reason. Personally I suspect France will buy them back and give them the Rafale. 

Regarding Dutch F-16, I don't know why PAF didn't try for them knowing that PAF was considering second-hand F-16s from US or from other Partner nations (Belgium?) back around 2-3 yrs ago. I am pretty sure even those would have involved US permission first. One reason I can think of is the economic condition. You cannot ask for aid money from one hand while spending on fighter jets with another, not unless you have a pretty strong leadership.


----------



## SQ8

There may be a huge difference but they fall under the same laws, therefore when we wanted to transfer these aircraft to Bangladesh a request was sent to the congress for the approval of this transfer and it was voted on by congress.
ONLY then was this transfer approved. Albeit there is a difference, Congress had little objection to us giving 45 year old airframes to another third world country.
Match that up with a new fighter.. and there will be many objections and many NAYs in the vote.


----------



## z9-ec

MastanKhan said:


> H Z9,
> 
> My good man, it is not a malicious post---PAC does not manufacture parts in the sense that I get from your post---PAC fabricates them from the machines they have purchased from the u s, technology that they have learnt from the u s, personale that have been trained in the u s or in pakistan by the u s personale---.



Exactly, my point sir. Being assembled in Peru does not necessarily mean the service is below par by any means as they are trained by LM/Boeing for this very reason. I never said that the aviation parts we made for Boeing were indigenous but were made in Pakistan regardless of the machinery being used. 

Nonetheless, I agree, I may have come out a bit harsh on qsaark.



> The brightest of the minds need to pointed and directed towards the right direction for them, to give appropriate results---at the end of the day---we will be judged by the results and not by our resources.



Completely agree with you on this one.


----------



## qsaark

Jabar 1 said:


> Qsaark Friend I am sorry for being rude, I was in a totally different state of mind when I replied and hope you will forgive me. I hope we will end up as very good friends as a token of friendship please send me your email through pm, Will send you a collectors photo of JF-17 Just for you.


Please, you do not owe me any apology. Even my sentence was sarcastic, and you only replied to that. It is graciousness and kindness of Mastan Saheb that he thinks this high of me....in fact this reflects his own personality, a person who can said such words for a person with whom he has been into bitter dialogues, is indeed a respectable person. I'll PM you my Email to receive your 'token of friendship'. Thanks in advance and no hard feelings.


----------



## hj786

mean_bird said:


> I agree.
> 
> But the better idea would have been to not go the US way in the first place i.e order the 18 blk-52. Just get the 60MLU kits and have it done by whoever was willing to do it at the earliest. There are some advantages of going for 18 new F-16s since we have operated the plane for so long, have all the training and infrastructure and operated around 32 of them as compared to going for just 18 planes of a totally different platform.
> 
> Considering just the upgrade for those Mirages are costing $20m a copy, I don't think that would be an affordable option for us unless UAE is selling them real cheap for some strange reason. Personally I suspect France will buy them back and give them the Rafale.
> 
> Regarding Dutch F-16, I don't know why PAF didn't try for them knowing that PAF was considering second-hand F-16s from US or from other Partner nations (Belgium?) back around 2-3 yrs ago. I am pretty sure even those would have involved US permission first. One reason I can think of is the economic condition. You cannot ask for aid money from one hand while spending on fighter jets with another, not unless you have a pretty strong leadership.



According to the inside sources at PakDef, PAF was forced to buy the block 52 in order to get AMRAAM released.


----------



## HAIDER

Whats underneath ...??


----------



## mean_bird

HAIDER said:


> Whats underneath ...??




I believe it is for creating the colored smoke, but I could be wrong.


----------



## SQ8

Smoke seems to be coming from somewhere else...
Unless they have two colours??


----------



## Munir

It is couloured diesel thrown into hot air... Turns into what you see... And if you are there you would smell diesel.


----------



## SQ8

Yup... smelled it at the 2007 parade


----------



## spurdozer

Hi I wanted to enquire about PAF's arsenal. Which AAMs are in current use by PAF? AGMs, PGBs?
Another thing could anyone tell me about the H-2, H-4 bombs/AAMs?
Which cannon are we going to use on the JF-17?
If sir Muradk or sir fatman can answer?


----------



## HAIDER

What Chinese precision AA and AG to weapon Pak use or in past ?. are they proven yet in any scenario ?


----------



## hassan1

CAN SOME BODY FIND THE ORIGNAL NAME OF "CONDOR" RADAR.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

can our mirage 5 load bombs like this...?





regards


----------



## HAIDER

Sir Murad ,,,where i can get Rayban Caravan /green/58MM. Its 60s style but need brand new one.
thanks


----------



## Muradk

HAIDER said:


> Sir Murad ,,,where i can get Rayban Caravan /green/58MM. Its 60s style but need brand new one.
> thanks



email me I might be able to help.


----------



## Tempest II

Any PAF or former who have worked with the Air Force if Zimbabwe or its personnel?

Thanks.


----------



## Jabar 1

911Turbo said:


> *COULD THIS BE THE NEW AGE OF AIR WARFARE*



To some extend but the problem comes in when you look at it in a 3 dimension way. The pilot is sitting a long way from it so it can't defend its self. Yes 1 day AI will take over then these planes will be a threat.


----------



## PAFAce

911Turbo said:


> Will unmanned fighter jet be THE NEXT BIG THING IN S.ASIA?


Yes, this will be true everywhere, including South Asia. In the words of a USAF commander "when a UAV is shot down, I don't have to write a letter to the family explaning what went wrong". Manned fighters will still be around a few decades from now, but UCAVs will be the spine of the force. A remotely piloted UCAS takes away the weakest part of a fighter plane, the pilot's body, and keeps the best part, the pilot's head. Autonomous UCAS will be very slow to develop, but will eventually be inducted in droves in my opinion. 



911Turbo said:


> COULD THIS BE THE NEW AGE OF AIR WARFARE


Yes and no. That particular aircraft is an X-45 engineering experimental aircraft by Boeing. The "X" designation means its purely experimental for now, and not geared for immediate operational demands. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) initiated the program. DARPA research planes don't always become a reality, but they provide advanced research and development experience, which is more valuable than any single aircraft or weapon in the world. So, don't expect the next operational UCAS un US service to be exactly like the X-45, but it gives us a good idea of what we can expect.

X-45




X-46 (Carrier Variant of the X-45, still under development)





*Edit*
In response to the article, I believe that India needs a more focused strategy. They can't go announcing aircraft projects all willy-nilly, even the US doesn't do that, and they have the budget to back it up. Senior and more experienced heads in India will definitely ask the DRDO (or whoever it is that makes these plans) to narrow down their selection and utilize their manpower and skills more efficiently. The PAK-FA is a certainty, because its a joint project, and the UCAS can be another feasible choice, but the MCA and the "Lead-in Fighter" are simply shots in the dark and waste of resources. What is the point of developing two high-tech fighters (PAK-FA and MCA),a low-tech fighter (LCA), a UCAS and two trainers ("Lead-in Fighter" and HAL Sitara) while simultaneously producing, inducting and maintaining a fleet of two other high-tech fighters (Su-30MKI and MMRCA winner)? On top of that TATA is getting impatient and is rising against DRDO's Aerospace supremacy by trying to team up with European aircraft manufacturers. In these troubling times, it is irresponsible to allow such extravagant waste of public resources. India must reign in its decision makers, for its own good.


----------



## lahori

what BVR missiles air to air PAF currently have. ?


----------



## lahori

OUT OF 18 IN TOTAL . ARE THEY FITTED WITH AIM 120 BVR


----------



## Coolyo

I think zero...

I doubt we'll ever get them... Americans are just like that!

We should focus on the J-10B, because China is one of our true allies. The US just seeks its own interests, and has proven time after time that they only care about themselves and not Pakistan.

We need to differentiate between those who are loyal to us, and those who are only trying to seek their own benefits!


----------



## echo 1

I have to agree with you on that one. We can just pray that we do get them though. We have paid a lot of money already for them.


----------



## lahori

and what are other missiles F-& and F-7 pg can carry.


----------



## lahori

which laser desiganation pod and LGBS are fitted.


----------



## Patriot

Yes, all F7's are equipped with AIM9 Sidewinder Missile.


----------



## lahori

what is the total number of F-16 A and B and C/Ds at the present.


----------



## lahori

how amrican sidewinder is integarated with chiness aircraft?

on what other air crafts it used along with F-16

can they drop american LGbs or of some other type.


----------



## lahori

it is heard taht AIM 9 can be used with F-7s than it might be possible jf-17.


----------



## Desertfalcon

*This may help...*

PAF Inventory, Program Model Block, Qty.=(#), Serials Delivered 

Peace Gate I F-16A Block 15 (2) 82701/82702 1983 
F-16B Block 15 (4) 82601/82604 1983 

Peace Gate II F-16A Block 15 (26) 83703, 84704/84719,
85720/85728 1983-1987 
F-16B Block 15 (8) 82605, 84606/84608,
85609/85612 1983-1987 

Peace Gate III F-16A Block 15OCU (6) 91729, 92730/92734 embargoed 
F-16B Block 15OCU (5) 91613, 92614/92617 embargoed 

Peace Gate IV F-16A Block 15OCU (7) 92735/92739, 93740/93741 embargoed 
F-16B Block 15OCU (10) 92618, 93619/93621,
94622/94624, 95625/95627 embargoed 
F-16A Block 15OCU (41) 9_742/9_782 stop-work 
F-16B Block 15OCU (2) 9_628/9_629 stop-work 

New Order F-16C Block 52 (12) ? 2009-2010 
F-16D Block 52 (6) ? 2009-2010 
Option F-16C/D Block 52 (18) ? 2009-2010

*A total of 40 F-16's were delivered and although these were the earlier Block 15 models, they have been mostly upgraded with new radar and fire control bringing them to OCU standard.

71 F-16 were either embargoed or a work stoppage enacted and were not delivered. As of 2006, agreement was reached to deliver a total of 62 F-16, 36 will be paid as new orders and the rest as compensation for past embargoed aircraft.

Greg*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lahori

f-16 OR MIRAGE OR BOTH?


----------



## Patriot

No, we dont have AIM45.


----------



## Patriot

They already have the capability to drop Laser Guided Bombs.Thanks to ROSE Upgrade.


----------



## Patriot

We asked US to help us integrate the missile on F7 and they helped us.In fact we had AIM9 on F6 too.


----------



## SQ8

Oi lahori.. you ask more questions than a 4 year old and in the wrong places.
You'll see there is something here called the air force question thread. You cant miss it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lahori

CAN THEY CARRY AMERICAN gbu-12.


----------



## blain2

RoseII/III Mirages are capable of precision surface attack with LGBs. RoseIs are optimized for air-to-air role with their upgraded AI radars.


----------



## Penguin

> Targeting
> 
> Laser Designator and Targeting Pod (LDTP) for target illumination and detection with day/ night capabilities;
> 
> Weapons
> 
> Fixed weapon includes a GSh-23 dual-barrel 23mm cannon. Alternatively the aircraft can be fitted with a GSh-30 dual-30mm cannon. There are 7 stores stations, including one under the fuselage, 4 under the wings, and 2 wingtip mounted, with up to 3,700kg weapon payload.
> 
> The aircraft is callable of &#8216;beyond-visual-range&#8217; (BVR) attack capability with the PL-12/SD-10 active radar-homing medium-range air-to-air missile (MRAAM) developed by China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (LETRI, also known as 607 Institute). The aircraft also carries two short-range AAMs on its wingtip-mounted launch rails. The options include U.S. AIM-9P and Chinese PL-7, PL-8, and PL-9.
> 
> _The aircraft can carry a special pod allowing day/night delivery of laser-guided weapons. _In addition, it can also carry unguided weapons such as low-drag general-purpose (LDGP) bombs and unguided rocket launchers.


FC-1 (JF-17 Thunder) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com



> Under-wing hardpoints can be fitted with multiple ejector racks, allowing each hardpoint to carry two unguided or laser-guided bombs (Mk 82, GBU-12).
> ...
> GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JF-17_Thunder



> The _LeiTing-2_ (LT-2, LeiTing = &#8220;Thunder&#8221, also known as GB1 in its export name, is the first Chinese domestically built laser guided bomb (LGB) that has entered operational service with the PLA. First revealed to the public in October 2006, the LT-2 bears a great deal of similarity to the Russian KAB-500L in appearance, suggesting that it may be a licensed or reverse-engineered copy of the Russian design. _The 500kg bomb can be carried by a range of aircraft including JH-7, Q-5, FC-1, J-8B, and J-10. _The weapon entered the PLA service in 2003/04.


LeiTing-2 Laser Guided Bomb - SinoDefence.com



> LS-500J
> The LGB appears similar to Russian KAB-500L and its export version is called LT-2. It is the first such type of smart weapon to enter the service with PLAAF, even though Chinese have been testing LGBs (including LS-500J) using Q-5E/F attack aircraft for some years. LS-500J's weight is 564kg, length 3530mm, diameter 377mm, range>10km, CEP&#163;6.5m, warhead 450kg. Its development was completed in 2003. _The laser designator pod carried by JH-7A is thought to be the product of 613 Institute. _The latest image indicated that LS-500J can also be carried by J-10.
> - Last Updated 9/9/08


Chinese Military Aviation



> FILAT (Forward-looking Infrared and Laser Attack Targeting) pod is an airborne attack pod designed to provide aircraft with all weather / night attack capabilities. It was first revealed to the public at 1998 Zhuhai Air Show, and it is designed by the 613 Institute of AVIC. FILAT pod is the Chinese equivalent of the AN/AAQ-14 targeting pod of the LANTIRN system, and several derivatives have already been developed since its public debut. The Chinese government has acknowledged that FILAT pod is based on the experience of the following three western targeting pods: LANTIRN, TIALD and LITENING targeting pods.


FILAT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> The Blue Sky low altitude navigational pod is an airborne navigational / attack pod designed to provide aircraft with all weather / night attack capabilities. It was first revealed to the public at 1998 Zhuhai Air Show, and it is designed by CLETRI, or more commonly known as the 607th Institute. Blue Sky navigational pod is the Chinese equivalent of the AN/AAQ-13 navigational pod of the LANTIRN system, and several derivatives have already been developed since its public debut. Like the FILAT targeting pod, Blue Sky navigational pod is based on the experience of LANTIRN, a fact that is officially acknowledged by the Chinese governmental media.


Blue Sky navigation pod - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Imageshack - ft7withtargetingpodsl0


----------



## tal

ok i have a question what are radar pointing errors and how radar pointing errors are sensed in single-target track mode?


----------



## Penguin

lahori said:


> it is heard taht AIM 9 can be used with F-7s than it might be possible jf-17.




AIM-45 ???

AIM-9 of JF-17:



> Active radar homing beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missiles, such as the Chinese PL-12/SD-10, can be deployed once integrated with the on-board radar and data-link for mid-course updates. PL-12/SD-10 is expected to be the aircraft's primary BVR air-to-air weapon, although this may change if radars of other origin are fitted. Chinese short range infra-red homing missiles such as the PL-5E and PL-9C, as well as missiles of other origin such as the AIM-9L/M, can be launched. The PAF is also seekingto arm the JF-17 with a modern fifth generation close-combat missile such as the IRIS-T or A-darter. These will be integrated with the helmet mounted sights/display (HMS/HMD) as well as the radar for targeting
> 
> ...
> 
> Being primarily an export-orientated fighter, the JF-17's tactical/mission avionics are based on the MIL-STD-1760 data bus architecture, so that Western weapons and other systems can be integrated with them. This allows JF-17 to effectively use Western as well as Chinese sensors and weapon systems such as radars, electronic warfare suites, missiles and bombs. Certain types of weapons, such as the Russian KAB series of bombs, require special adapter rails to be fitted to the aircraft's hardpoints.
> 
> Beyond the initial 50 PAF JF-17, the remaining production aircraft may also be equipped with European avionics, radars and weaponry. Pakistan had begun negotiations with British and Italian defence firms over potential avionics and radars for JF-17 during initial development. Some of the radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7 and the French Thomson-CSF RC400 (a variant of the RDY-2), along with the MBDA MICA IR/RF short/medium range air-to-air missiles. The Vixen 500E AESA radar has also been offered to the PAF for installation on the JF-17 by the British company SELEX, but the PAF may be looking for a more advanced AESA radar
> 
> ...
> 
> Missiles:
> 
> Air-to-air missiles:
> Short range: AIM-9L/M, PL-5E, PL-9C
> Beyond visual range: PL-12 / SD-10


JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> The aircraft has &#8216;beyond-visual-range&#8217; (BVR) attack capability with the PL-12/SD-10 active radar-homing medium-range air-to-air missile (MRAAM) developed by China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (LETRI, also known as 607 Institute). The aircraft also carries two short-range AAMs on its wingtip-mounted launch rails. The options include U.S. AIM-9P and Chinese PL-7, PL-8, and PL-9.
> 
> The JF-17s in service with the PAF are fitted with an Italian Grifo S-7 multi-track, multi-mode, pulse Doppler radar radar. The radar has 25 working modes and a non-break-down time of 200 hours, and is capable of &#8220;look-down, shoot-down&#8221;, as well as for ground strike abilities. Alternatively, the aircraft can be fitted with the Thales RC400, GEC Marconi Blue Hawk, Russian Phazotron Zemchug/Kopyo, and Chinese indigenous KLJ-7 developed by Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET).
> 
> The FC-1&#8217;s avionics architecture is supported by two mission computers based on Multi-Bus System (MIL-STD-1553B).


http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp

ROSE upgraded Mirage III/Vs:


> Mirage III ROSE Program
> Main article: ROSE upgrade
> The ROSE program was launched by the French SAGEM to upgrade the Pakistan Air Force's Mirage III & Mirage 5 series. The upgradings took place in three stages - ROSE-I, ROSE-II, and ROSE-III. Approximately 42 Mirage IIIs underwent _the ROSE I upgrade which included the addition of the Grifo M radar - which gave the PAF's ROSE I aircraft BVR capability_. Under the ROSE-II program at least 40 PAF's Mirage 5 aircraft were upgraded with digital cockpits and FLIR pods; this made the ROSE II an air-to-surface strike-oriented aircraft capable of using H-series precision-guided bombs. The Mirage ROSE III is a follow-up version of the ROSE II, the PAF has 14 ROSE III aircraft in service.
> 
> Missiles: 2&#215; AIM-9 Sidewinders OR Matra R550 Magics plus 1&#215; Matra R530


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_III
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROSE_upgrade


----------



## HAIDER

Sir Murad...you agree or not agree....in Mirage M2k and F16 scenario( comment about Mirage 2000


> "Sustained turning is much more important than instantaneous turning then fading quickly, concerning a real life dog fight. You need to hold your nose for a decent amount of time to get a sucessful kill with guns. You can't just spot them for a few seconds and expect to get a good kill with guns. "


----------



## Penguin

F-16 (provided it has a laser targeting pod)

AS-30L is laser guided, the carrier aircraft would need a laser designator. 



> Launch platforms are: Mirage 2000D, Mirage 2000-5, F-16, Jaguar, Mirage F1, upgraded Super Etendard, Rafale.


(AS-30L - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
(AS-30L)



> Qualification was achieved in 1985 on the Jaguar, in 1985 and 1986 on the export version of the Mirage F1 and the Mirage 2000, in 1992 on F-16 Fighting Falcon and 1993 on the Mirage 2000D. Since then it has also been cleared for carriage on Rafale, Super Etendard, Tornado GR. Mk 1 and possible AMX aircraft. In the case of the F-16 Fighting Falcon successful night firings were carried out using a Martin Marietta (now Lockheed Martin) Sharpshooter pod.


(air-force)


----------



## Penguin

lahori said:


> on what other air crafts it used along with F-16



I know of no AIM-45 air-to-air missile. I do know AGM-45 Shrike anti-radiation missile, AIM-47 Falcon air-to-air missile and AIM-54 Phoenix long range air-to-air missile.


----------



## Penguin

48 F-7PG
120 F-7MP 
15 FT-7P
9 FT-7PG 
Total 192

PL-2, PL-5, PL-7, PL-8, PL-9, Magic R.550, AIM-9 short-range AAM 
Chengdu J-7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Cheetah786

lahori said:


> on what other air crafts it used along with F-16



Hey Noob are U that lazy that cant search the forums and you keep asking questions about the subjects that have been discussed here search the forums and read.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## King Julien

Check for AIM-120 C, PAF is getting this


----------



## Muradk

HAIDER said:


> Sir Murad...you agree or not agree....in Mirage M2k and F16 scenario( comment about Mirage 2000



Haider if you are talking about truning radius in a Dog Fight F-16 will have a upper hand, with a delta wing you have to keep the nose up to tell you the truth I have 2000 hr on Mirages and a lot of hours on F-16s but I have not flown MK2. Yes few of my students have flown it and are still flying it in UAEAF. They speak very highly of it. If we get BVR on F-16s than we are good, I don't want to boast if a pilot like my self sits in a MK2 I would curtainly have a hard time locking on a Falcon. Again it will come to tactics and experience.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Desertfalcon

*Muradk*, Sir, the Mirage III was a fine fighter platform though, is that correct? I mean it has such a reputation, even though it has that large delta wing.


----------



## Tempest II

I have not researched this and will be as soon as I finish posting this. I am however hoping that those of you who already know can help:

Am I correct to assume that for interception/dog fighting, the PAF will pick the F-7 first before the Mirage? The Mirages are more for strike roles? In other words *"is the F-7 a better interceptor than the Mirage III?"*


----------



## Desertfalcon

I would think that any surviving Mirage III's would be used for strike roles, but I know that they have an impressive air to air record, particularly in Israeli hands.


----------



## Muradk

Desertfalcon said:


> I would think that any surviving Mirage III's would be used for strike roles, but I know that they have an impressive air to air record, particularly in Israeli hands.



Israeli were just lucky they got to fight with pilots who had no combat experience. Why was it that when ever a Pakistani pilot took off they got clean kills. Everyone of us. I will not go into details if PAF hasn't released any info who am I to open the box. My point was simple when ever we went 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2 , 3 vs 3 we won and without any fancy moves.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## spurdozer

none. And there is no need to say we are not getting the planes cos' the actual timescale for getting these birds is 2010 and we are still a year away from 2010. If you could just read through the F-16 discussion thread, you would not have been asking this question. Meanbird sir has answered this question thoroughly and many times.
Maybe mean-bird sir can answer more appropriately.


----------



## Tempest II

Muradk,

Thanks for answering my question. I was hoping you will and nearly addressed the question directly to you. I grew up in Zimbabwe during the days of apartheid South Africa and hated the regime with a passion. Was prepared to join the freedom movements there and fight. 

As you know, to set up our air force, we received a lot of help from Pakistan  in fact, I was in class with one of the instructors daughters in the late 80s at school. Even now, we have PAF instructors who were recruited not more than two years ago. To me, that says Zimbabwe is getting ready for the FC-1. 

I was thinking and the scenario between South Africa and Zimbabwe. South Africa had the Mirage IIIs (before the upgraded Cheetah modifications) and Zimbabwe, with instruction, guidance and advice from PAF bought the F-7s. It the clicked to me that PAF operated the Mirages as well   the light then came on,   ! I would even dare venture to say while Zimbabwe was selecting an interceptor, Pakistan would have afforded them some detailed performance information on the Mirages IIIs.


----------



## Munir

Muradk said:


> Israeli were just lucky they got to fight with pilots who had no combat experience. Why was it that when ever a Pakistani pilot took off they got clean kills. Everyone of us. I will not go into details if PAF hasn't released any info who am I to open the box. My point was simple when ever we went 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2 , 3 vs 3 we won and without any fancy moves.



Murad, 

Most realistic and ood reply sofar. About the Israeli... Winning the war starts with derading the opponent and making own forces look like hero's and saints. I never believed the superiority of Israelis was based on facts. The Americans and jews just copied Goebels ideas. You know, the one that turned millionbs into jew haters. Now they just copied Nazi ideas like concentration camps (westbank, Gaza) and mass manipulation...

I did hate the fact that arabs are not able to handle a badic level. Arabs even run towards Israel to sell their plane and soul... You can never win a war with soldiers like arabs.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sajidkhan

hey which fighter jet in our force will counter the indian sukhois?? n can u plz give me the list of current fighter jets in our air force! thnx in advance.


----------



## araz

lahori said:


> OUT OF 18 IN TOTAL . ARE THEY FITTED WITH AIM 120 BVR



Mr Lahori
Could you please stop opening threads with one liners and questions. It clogs the forum and is a waste of band width. Please ask any questions that you have in the PAF Q+A section. Believe me , there is one.
WaSalam
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Sunny4pak

Assalam-o-Alaikum
Sir MuradK what are your views if we compare JF 17 and LCA ........?
I mean what ur experience say about these aircrafts.....
Regards,
Sunny


----------



## Munir

I think a delta at high altitude and hih speed is a danger. But sofar there are no teeths for the delta. JF17 is more for low and agility in mind with 2-4 BVR and 2 WVR. Knowing that Pak will sooner or later get decent high altitude cover and (FC20) we can say that JF17 will do its job as expected.


----------



## Manticore

sajidkhan said:


> hey which fighter jet in our force will counter the indian sukhois?? n can u plz give me the list of current fighter jets in our air force! thnx in advance.


the f16s [block15 after mlu=block50]with awacs support will counter the su30 untill f16 block50 and j10s arrive.. apart from that, we have f7, mirage 3/5 with rose upgrades, a5 ground attack jets... a squadron is in the evaluation and subsequent induction phase of jf17, which would eventually take over the roles of mirages, f7 and a5
aim120c5 and sd10[pl12] bvr missiles are going to be inducted, perhaps even mica... ra'ad might be our awacs killer if we dont get ft2000
just type paf wikipedia and youll get the info..
detailed , specific info can be found here on this forum


----------



## pshamim

Biggest drawback our F-16 had was their inability to operate at night. While we will not have that problem with the Blk-50, the night capability is also being added during the MLU.

Our anti state elements were aware of this shortcoming and consistently took advantage by moving around at night while hising during the day. They will not have this luxary any more.


----------



## qsaark

pshamim said:


> *Biggest drawback our F-16 had was their inability to operate at night*. *While we will not have that problem with the Blk-50, the night capability is also being added during the MLU*.
> 
> Our anti state elements were aware of this shortcoming and consistently took advantage by moving around at night while hising during the day. They will not have this luxary any more.


I am little confused here. You are saying that our F-16 were not capable of night operation. Following are the excerpts from Air Commodore (Retd) Shahid Kamal Khan's assay "Early Warning - The Phalcon &#8220;Phallacy&#8221;".

"Join me at Thirty Thousand Feet. In pitch black darkness, in a jewel studded night sky over the North West Frontier Province at CAP Station Alpha. In an F-16 cockpit twiddling knobs, pressing buttons, listening to the ALR-69 Radar Warning Receiver, selecting threat libraries, identifying blips, monitoring radio transmissions and performing a host of other complex tasks. Working the APG-66 radar, varying tilt angles, scan modes, zooming in to targets, locking, unlocking, zooming out to distant targets, trying to identify, sort and prioritize the threat posed by each one of the blips that appear on the airborne radar display screen. 

This is a particularly busy night. Some major ground action is underway, fully supported by air power. The small, square radar screen between my knees is lit up like the proverbial Christmas tree with multiple targets at various ranges, different altitudes and differing speeds. Those six slow moving blips flying low, close to the ground are obviously night attack helicopters probably targeting some Mujahideen ground concentrations. The four faster, higher targets conclusively identified as specialized ground attack aircraft in a weapon delivery pattern, dropping flares, lighting up the area for both the helicopters and themselves as they pound the earth below. Another set of four blips further back, patrolling at fifteen thousand feet. Obviously fighters, judging by their speed and other parameters that the on-board systems have analyzed. Parked high above and beyond the ground combat zone, these lethal machines providing cover and the wherewithal to assist the ponderous, heavily laden, less manoeuvrable ground attack aircraft in case they are attacked. And the lone blip, well in the distance, lumbering across the sky in a defined orbit. The Airborne Command Centre from where this major ground assault, fully supported by air assets is most probably being orchestrated. Watching me watching them. More blips dotted across the screen. Aircraft transiting back to base, having done their bit and soon, another set of blips indicating the arrival of replacements. 

At CAP Station Alpha we are able to look deep inside Afghanistan while remaining safely inside our borders. Powerful sensors on board the F-16 provide us this very sobering vision. Our task is to watch and ensure that the action does not drift into our airspace. Airborne early warning packing a lethal punch.

The eastern sky starts to light up in an amazing kaleidoscope of colour, hues and radiating shafts of brilliance. Dawn comes early at this altitude. Down below, still in darkness, my replacements are preparing to come up, take over from me and continue the vigil as the new day approaches. *A pair of day interceptors* are getting ready to take off as soon as the day breaks at ground level. Fast, nimble, lightweight and lethal but without the radar and the other electronics that the F-16 carries. The replacements are machines optimized for clear weather, daytime combat. piloted by bright, talented. hawkeyed pilots who work closely with ground based radars and use their sharp visual acquisition skills to pick up threats in the sky. Pilots trained and skilled in &#8220;burn and turn&#8221; tactics, excelling in fighting Within Visual Range.

Soon their voices come crackling across on the radio. Sharp, fresh, confident, mutually supportive calls confirming to each other &#8220;tails clear&#8221;, a term designed to confirm the absence of any threat in their cone of vulnerability. 

Here am I in my modern cockpit surrounded with technology providing me with a fairly sobering picture of what lies out there, and there they are, completely oblivious of the threat. This is not as foolhardy as it sounds; the combat ready pair is fully capable of taking on any hostile aircraft that enters its zone of lethality. They sing a different song, they dance to a different tune. They know their tactics well. Tactics based on forcing the enemy to come within their visual range if he is to hurt them. Tactics based on long range visual acquisition of anything airborne. Tactics that ensure that once an enemy is sighted, he is outmanoeuvred and overwhelmed. Brilliant, gut wrenching tactics. These pilots do not see what lies beyond their considerable visual acquisition range. Frankly, they couldn't care less. A lethal punch with negligible early warning.

Source: http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?t=4992

I will be thankful to you if you clear up this confusion.


----------



## pshamim

qsaark said:


> I am little confused here. You are saying that our F-16 were not capable of night operation. Following are the excerpts from Air Commodore (Retd) Shahid Kamal Khan's assay "Early Warning - The Phalcon &#8220;Phallacy&#8221;".
> 
> "Join me at Thirty Thousand Feet. *Working the APG-66 radar, varying tilt angles, scan modes, zooming in to targets, locking, unlocking, zooming out to distant targets, trying to identify, sort and prioritize the threat posed by each one of the blips that appear on the airborne radar display screen. *The eastern sky starts to light up in an amazing kaleidoscope of colour, hues and radiating shafts of brilliance. Dawn comes early at this altitude. Down below, still in darkness, my replacements are preparing to come up, take over from me and continue the vigil as the new day approaches. *A pair of day interceptors* are getting ready to take off as soon as the day breaks at ground level. Fast, nimble, lightweight and lethal but without the radar and the other electronics that the F-16 carries. The replacements are machines optimized for clear weather, daytime combat. piloted by bright, talented. hawkeyed pilots who work closely with ground based radars and use their sharp visual acquisition skills to pick up threats in the sky. Pilots trained and skilled in &#8220;burn and turn&#8221; tactics, excelling in fighting Within Visual Range.
> 
> Soon their voices come crackling across on the radio. Sharp, fresh, confident, mutually supportive calls confirming to each other &#8220;tails clear&#8221;, a term designed to confirm the absence of any threat in their cone of vulnerability.
> *
> Tactics based on long range visual acquisition of anything airborne*. Tactics that ensure that once an enemy is sighted, he is outmanoeuvred and overwhelmed. Brilliant, gut wrenching tactics. *These pilots do not see what lies beyond their considerable visual acquisition range*. Frankly, they couldn't care less. A lethal punch with negligible early warning.
> 
> Source: Early Warning - The Phalcon &#8220;Phallacy&#8221; - PakDef Forums
> 
> I will be thankful to you if you clear up this confusion.




Read the first para again. It talks about the APG-66 being used. Correct! it could scan every thing which would reflect on the radar screen. But you have no visual. How do you track people. They cannot be scanned. Ground is dark and nothing is visible. This shortcoming is being taken care of now.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## qsaark

pshamim said:


> Read the first para again. It talks about the APG-66 being used. Correct! it could scan every thing which would reflect on the radar screen. But you have no visual. How do you track people. They cannot be scanned. Ground is dark and nothing is visible. This shortcoming is being taken care of now.


Got it. Thanks.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Our early F-16A/Bs could operate at night very well but for air to air missions. The problem, generally believed, was that they were not able to conduct proper night ground-attack missions.

An airborne radar has both air to air and A2G modes but it may be that those Ground-Mapping or Moving-Target Indication (MTI) or Synethic Aperture Radar (SAR) modes were not available with those early APG-66 radar sets.

But for precision strikes, in addition to A2G radar modes, you also need targeting+navigation pods that can work at night too like the LANTRIN pods.

Was the LANTRIN available to PAF F-16s in 1990s or not is a matter sometimes debated.


----------



## Munir

I think it can be explained simpler... You do get ground picture but not enough detail and certainly not fast enough to control your actions. I have seen older scans of F16 and surely you do see islands but hardly comparable what you would see during daytime. And it takes a lot more computing and scanning power to look for object you probably want to hit. Even IR binoculars are restricting your vision cause they have kind of tunnelvision and make everything that is far away look like it is very close. Maybe it works fine in Europe where there is a lot of artificial light during night. It is a whole other setting if you fly near the Afghan border hoping to hit a few man...


----------



## Muradk

A smart pilot is who knows the potential of his fighter. JF-17 vs LCA is quite an interesting match under 20,000ft Thunder will take a few sec to get it in its sights, What I have seen the LCA during display in India was at 1000ft and could not keep the plane straight, I mean the nose was alway pointed upwards atleast 20 degrees up wards, 2 things either the engine is low powered or the design is fuc---up.
Thunder pulls 9 gs at 320 knots without FB and the Falcon has to do the same with full after burners.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lahori

do PAf have Aim 7 sparrow . if yes on which aircrafts it is used.what is its range.


----------



## lahori

What is the exact use of AGM 45 .is it currently functional in PAF.


----------



## lahori

what are the anti radar missiles PAF presently has. on which aircrafts they are compatible with


----------



## Zarbe Momin

I have a question? JF-17 can adopt JAS-39 *back landing wheel design* after some minor changes in design. In my view by doing this we can add an extra hard point on each wing. At moment JF-17 back wheels open in wings like J-7 (F-7) and it take some place of wing. If it opens back like JAS-39 then at least PAF can save some place for extra pay load.
About this whether it is possible or not answer of a Professional like Sir Muradk will be more welcome.


----------



## lahori

DOES PAF HAS AGM 88 HARM MISSILE ? IS IT 80 KM RANGE AGM ?


----------



## Gabriel

lahori said:


> DOES PAF HAS AGM 88 HARM MISSILE ? IS IT 80 KM RANGE AGM ?



lahori 
U.S. foreign military sales are subject to notification to U.S. congress.
If you are interested in a specific equipment you can look it up here: 
DSCA -- Arms Sales Notifications


----------



## fatman17

Nice Pic - F-22
View attachment 3688


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

ROSE IV
Why PAF didnt go for ROSE IV phase, it will bring at least one Mirage squadron to BVR capable with Grifo M3 radars and MBDA MICA Missiles with least cost.

French is showing kindness to Pakistan these days and by the end of this year many contracts will be signed (when French President Sarkozy will visit Pakistan). 

PPP has a long history of buying French and they started ROSE program and should finish it too.


----------



## Manticore

question, 

1]do we have something on the lines of python4?

2]with the induction of tankers, where does the attack radius extended to?

3]are f16s or mirages integrated with mar1 missiles?


----------



## TaimiKhan

Well Zavis, 

super cruise is basically the ability of an aircraft with some load of weapon or equipment to go at supersonic speed (more then the speed of sound) without using the afterburner of the aircraft. 

and as for subsonic, any vehicle traveling below the speed of sound is in a subsonic flight. the tomahawk and babur cruise missile are good examples of subsonic flight.


----------



## news1tube

i realy dont know sorrry


----------



## TaimiKhan

well Anti Body,

i don't think Pakistan has any indigenous A2A missile program. But chinese may in future be bringing something on the line or something similar to Python 4 as Chinese already have the Python 3 technology. But there is a talk that Pakistan may in future get IRIS-T which may be equal or superior to Python 4. By the way Python 5 is also there, an improved version of Python 4. 

Well due to tankers practically the combat radius can be nearly doubled, but in Pakistan's case, i guess it will give more loitering capability to our fighters, enabling them to stay in air for longer period of time, also Pakistan can have now airbases as deep as possible, to be far away from Indian missiles range or would give ample time to PAF for reacting to any threat coming towards the bases.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TaimiKhan

and as for Mar-1, in my opinion it would work with F-16 and Mirages, reason being Brazil has western weapons and aircraft, so they must have made it to be compatible with western radars and aircrafts as without it the sales prospective would not be great for the manufacturing company.


----------



## qsaark

What is the preferred way of delivering a fighter jet, flaying it all the way from the seller to the buyer or shipping it? I am asking this because if a fighter has to fly 12-14 hours (say for example between USA and Pakistan) than effectively the total life of the aircraft is less by 12-14 hours while literally making no &#8216;contribution&#8217;.


----------



## blain2

ANTIBODY said:


> question,



1]do we have something on the lines of python4?

AIM-9L and AIM-9M stack well against Python-4.

2]with the induction of tankers, where does the attack radius extended to?

Depends on what the flight profile is, how the aircraft is loaded up etc. etc.

3]are f16s or mirages integrated with mar1 missiles?

Either of the F-16s or ROSE 1 Mirages could be integrated, even JF-17 could be potential candidates.


----------



## fatman17

Blast from the past
F-5 Radar !!!
View attachment 4052

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Wingman

fatman17 said:


> Blast from the past
> F-5 Radar !!!
> View attachment 4052



F-5 radar????


----------



## fatman17

dreamer said:


> F-5 radar????



early chinese models!


----------



## wangrong

mirage 

note:R-73+RD33


----------



## hj786

wangrong said:


> mirage
> 
> note:R-73+RD33



Wouldn't the JF-17 would be more cost-effective than this Mirage F1 upgrade?


----------



## Muradk

hj786 said:


> Wouldn't the JF-17 would be more cost-effective than this Mirage F1 upgrade?



Its sucks in close quaters its was never intended to take a fighter 1 on 1 , on the other hand JF-17 is a perfect weapon for 1 on 1.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Munir

I think that the F1 is a great interceptor but it is ok for dogfights. Not super. JF17 is optimized for low altitude dogfights... I do not think may would survive it even with F16...


----------



## Muradk

Munir said:


> I think that the F1 is a great interceptor but it is ok for dogfights. Not super. JF17 is optimized for low altitude dogfights... I do not think may would survive it even with F16...



Yes you are right now a days you hardly find a interceptor \, The pilots who moved from F-16s to thunder are very impressed buy its performance, they are used to Full after burners manuv but with thunder they can do it without the ABs

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zulfiqar

So Sir murad if JF-17 is good without after burner then i assume it will be better with it. Am i correct?


----------



## TaimiKhan

Murad Sir, can u tell has JF-17 gone through all its weapons test & evaluation ???

Have chinese PGMs been tested on JF-17 or not or any other platform??

Has PAF started to use or tested chinese (Blue Sky) navigation & targeting pods on JF-17 or any other platform ?? any results about them ???

And one big mystery for me atleast, is PAF using Chinese PGMs operationally or have they been used in the air strikes in swat or fata areas ???

I have looked at the new chinese JDAM & LGM, by their specification they look capable enough. Has PAF considered them as a weapon system ???


----------



## Munir

Mian Asad said:


> So Sir murad if JF-17 is good without after burner then i assume it will be better with it. Am i correct?



I think it is a good question. It depends on the plane how much extra you get... But do remind that AB eats fuel, shows huge signature and certainly makes people a bit deaf...  If you have a delta where the tail slip into the curve then you need that damn thing. Every turn you create huge drag. If you have midwinged (both length as height) high performance fighterjets then the AB is just a big extra but you can keep your speed with less thrust. You do not bleed energy as much as delta's. Flying with less AB means also less maintenance (engine cycles, stress)...

F16 pilots love their AB so much... The Dutch display pilot loves to throw it into full AB (mode 4) without the steps... They have specially altered that for him. And do remember that you need spool time to get there... Some engines are incredible responsive (Mirage 2000) bu some have extremely slow spool up time.

Good discussion here...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zarbe Momin

I have a question whether it is economical to own JH-7 project for further development by PAF & kamra.

Xian JH-7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AL-31 F aircraft turbofan engine | Russian Arms, Military Technology, Analysis of Russia's Military Forces

1- Replacement of Xian WS9 by Al-31 F because boht have similarities.

*AL-31 F aircraft turbofan engine*


* Maximum augmented thrust, kgf .....12500
* Minimum specific fuel consumption, kg/ kgf.h .....0,67
* Weight, kg .....1570
* Length, m .....4,99
* Inlet diameter, m .....0,9
* Maximum external diameter, m ..... 1,28

*Xian WS9 (a license-built Spey Mk202) afterburning turbofans*
* Type: Low bypass turbofan
* Length: 204.9 in (5204.4 mm}
* Diameter: 43.0 in (1092.2 mm)
* Dry weight: 4,093 lb (1856 kg)

2- By increasing wing span area
3- DSI intakes, CFT, IRST and air refueling etc

If india can buy american stuff then russia wouldnt mind to sell us AL-31N engin. By developing JH-7 further it will be cheap solutions to SU-30 MkI and also to other indian future fighter and bombers.


----------



## Blackpearl

Can somebody tell me the difference and upgrades available in super mushak and mushak.PAF Academy uses which aircarft for primery training.


----------



## fatman17

Blackwater said:


> Can somebody tell me the difference and upgrades available in super mushak and mushak.PAF Academy uses which aircarft for primery training.



check the world airforces - pakistan thread for info!


----------



## Wingman

Muradk said:


> Yes you are right now a days you hardly find a interceptor \, The pilots who moved from F-16s to thunder are very impressed buy its performance, they are used to Full after burners manuv but with thunder they can do it without the ABs



One of my friend's flew F-16 and now flying THunder, he said thunder is a fantastic A/C

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## pakpower

Hello Fatman Sir

Hello sir how r u everybody respected you a lot by ur seniority and experience in military field, I was thinking what will be ur AGE? as ur a experience man.


----------



## fatman17

pakpower said:


> Hello Fatman Sir
> 
> Hello sir how r u everybody respected you a lot by ur seniority and experience in military field, I was thinking what will be ur AGE? as ur a experience man.



50 yrs old


----------



## pakpower

> 50 yrs old



Thanks a lot sir jee for your prompt reply to my question I really appreciated that GOD Allah bless you with lot's of happiness.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PAFAce

fatman17 said:


> 50 yrs old


Naah. You're just 25, with an additional 25 years of experience.

Though I must say, I thought you would be younger. It's just that, in old age, people tend to become negative ("is mulk ka kuch nahi ho sakta" rants etc.), and you seem to be quite positive. I guess that's what makes military retirees different from civilian retirees.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

dreamer said:


> One of my friend's flew F-16 and now flying THunder, he said thunder is a fantastic A/C



people need to be patient and wait for the final product - once it is upgraded with western powerplant, avionics and missiles, it is going to be a block-buster. it will fulfill or fillful PAF requirements for air defence, CAS and Nav-attack!


----------



## hj786

fatman17 said:


> people need to be patient and wait for the final product - once it is upgraded with western powerplant, avionics and missiles, it is going to be a block-buster. it will fulfill or fillful PAF requirements for air defence, CAS and Nav-attack!


For sure. 
Is the western powerplant confirmed yet? Last I read they were considering the Snecma M53-P2 back in 2008. I don't think they'll go for the western powerplant because Russia has been offering to supply upgraded versions of the RD-93, even with TVC.


----------



## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> people need to be patient and wait for the final product - once it is upgraded with western powerplant, avionics and missiles, it is going to be a block-buster. it will fulfill or fillful PAF requirements for air defence, CAS and Nav-attack!



that the real point that many of us (including myself offcourse) tend o forget so so often. we havent seen the first squadron yet and have discussed it to death!
perhaps it is all out of love and respect that we have for that platform and the people involved in the projet. nevertheless nothing can be claimed until it is fully operational and its performance is clear to the top-brass atleast from where we can all get our peice of info and then compile it here to reach a conclusion!
however saying all this, i guess, as far as the reports claim, the JF 17 is surely a great plane and will be there to fulfil our need for good time now! alos it will prove to be first step toward the indeginious fighter plane development ability!

regards!


----------



## Zulfiqar

> Russia has been offering to supply upgraded versions of the RD-93, even with TVC.



Russian engines have a low MTBO as compared to western engines. With TVC it will go even lower.

IMO TVC does not have much use as newer 5th gen missiles with high off bore capability will cancel the advantage.


----------



## Super Falcon

[url="http://


----------



## Manticore

sirs, 2 questions..
1] what is the historical sig. of this building?




2]how is a jf17 squadron develop during this transition period..like suppose one of our deepstrike squadrons have to be converted.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ssigned-different-squadrons-2.html#post443503


----------



## base_alpha_8

can anyone tell me if theres goin to be an airshow on coming defence day ? ... in lahore?


----------



## unstopabl3

Recently I saw PAF Hiring advertisement in the newspaper dated Aug 11, 2009. I looked at the requirements for GDP Pilot and it said that students who have done their First Year of FSC can apply if their school/colleges provide a recommendation letter that the student will be able to complete the second year with required grades/percentage.

What I would like to know is that can someone who is doing A Level also apply for GD Pilot after giving AS exams with Phys and Maths (First Year Papers of A Level) and without chemistry? I ask this for two reasons

1) In the requirements it said that a student can apply for GD Pilot if he/she has done A Level with at-least Phys and Maths. Therefore, chemistry doesn't look to be necessary ... right?

2) If students who have done First Year of FSC can apply for GD Pilot, I'm sure the students who have done First Year of A Level can also apply ... right?

I have contacted the PAF Information Center, Lahore Cantt, but still no reply from them. That's why I am asking these questions here.

Hoping, someone will guide me in the right direction.

Thanks!


----------



## Nucleus

I have the same questions
Someone please reply..
Thanks


----------



## SSGPA1

I was at PAF base Masroor waiting for my final medical examination but one of the doctors was busy with an operation. So after waiting for an hour, buddy and I walked outside the room and with guidance from one of the NCOs actually met the doctor outside his office.

My buddy was a little more excited so he went to the officer ahead of me and described him the purpose of his visit, that officer looked at him and told him in a harsh tone to go back and wait where he is supposed to wait. Then he looked at me so I got confused and asked "what about me sir?" he almost yelled and said "same for you!"

Moral of the story, if FSC and A-Level are equivalent then math and physics etc requirements are the same as well.

*Now shrugg off your bloody lazy attitude and go to the centre with all your documents and get answers directly.*


----------



## Nucleus

haha, maybe that's a normal attitude in army 
Thanks for the info


----------



## Muradk

It just pisses me off these OC selection Center don't pick there phones nor do they answer any questions when kids approach them. I have got a about 50 emails on this I promise this will be taken care of with 24 hours. Specially for Karachi, Lahore and Pindi.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## EagleEyes

Muradk said:


> It just pisses me off these OC selection Center don't pick there phones nor do they answer any questions when kids approach them. I have got a about 50 emails on this I promise this will be taken care of with 24 hours. Specially for Karachi, Lahore and Pindi.



Good going!


----------



## unstopabl3

SSGPA1 said:


> *Now shrugg off your bloody lazy attitude and go to the centre with all your documents and get answers directly.*



Not trying to be a hardass here but last time I went to the PAF Information center located in my vicinity (Cantt, Lahore) to get information on how to join PAF, it's requirements etc, the clerk at the information booth gave me a helpline number and told me I that should call that number to get my answers. I told him it had taken me more than an hour to locate their center and if he could kindly answer at-least a few of my questions. His response was similar as yours, which was "buzz off". I called the number he gave me numerous times, without anyone picking up. When I finally got through, I was told to visit the PAF Center. I had still not lost hope, but can't say same about other new comers.

As human beings we are supposed to be humble, kind and helpful and as being a Muslim these traits should go beyond than that of any other human being's.

Please don't be offended, I had already mentioned in my first post, the reason I was making the thread, which was that the PAF info helpline and the PAF info center were not able to answer my questions.

So considering you guys are the experts and have already been through all of this, it would be appreciated if you could help new comers like myself. Isn't that the point of these forums ... well at-least a small part of it 


P.S FSC and A Level requirements are different for joining PAF.

P.S Thanks sir Murad for your concern and interest. But can you kindly query my questions to your links within PAF and get back to me ASAP as I have to submit my exams application in a couple of days!


----------



## DaRk WaVe

wat are specifications of F-7PG?, could not find it any where


----------



## PAFAce

unstopabl3 said:


> Recently I saw PAF Hiring advertisement in the newspaper dated Aug 11, 2009. I looked at the requirements for GDP Pilot and it said that students who have done their First Year of FSC can apply if their school/colleges provide a recommendation letter that the student will be able to complete the second year with required grades/percentage.


This means they are re-opening the selection. I'm glad. I'll be contacting them soon, InshAllah, regarding GD(P) for graduates. I'll see if I can get your questions answered along with mine. If I do, I'll post them here for everyone's benefit.


----------



## TaimiKhan

emo_girl said:


> wat are specifications of F-7PG?, could not find it any where



Export variant of the J-7PG, with the 2-piece windshield replacing the 3-piece windshield of the J-7PG. Pakistan ordered a total of 80 in two batches, with 50 and 30 respectively in each. As per PAF acounts, the performance at high altitude of the F-7PG has increased more then the previous versions.Italian FIAR Grifo-MG or Grifo 7PD radar on F-7PG, which are being assembled at PAC.


----------



## Muradk

unstopabl3 said:


> Not trying to be a hardass here but last time I went to the PAF Information center located in my vicinity (Cantt, Lahore) to get information on how to join PAF, it's requirements etc, the clerk at the information booth gave me a helpline number and told me I that should call that number to get my answers. I told him it had taken me more than an hour to locate their center and if he could kindly answer at-least a few of my questions. His response was similar as yours, which was "buzz off". I called the number he gave me numerous times, without anyone picking up. When I finally got through, I was told to visit the PAF Center. I had still not lost hope, but can't say same about other new comers.
> 
> As human beings we are supposed to be humble, kind and helpful and as being a Muslim these traits should go beyond than that of any other human being's.
> 
> Please don't be offended, I had already mentioned in my first post, the reason I was making the thread, which was that the PAF info helpline and the PAF info center were not able to answer my questions.
> 
> So considering you guys are the experts and have already been through all of this, it would be appreciated if you could help new comers like myself. Isn't that the point of these forums ... well at-least a small part of it
> 
> 
> P.S FSC and A Level requirements are different for joining PAF.
> 
> P.S Thanks sir Murad for your concern and interest. But can you kindly query my questions to your links within PAF and get back to me ASAP as I have to submit my exams application in a couple of days!




*PM me your tele number don't waist time atleast apply for it, later I can guide you. They will be selecting 20 candidates per selection center they have increased the pass &#37; to 85 % , and the IQ test is harder now. One of my students son passed today but out of 200 only 17 passed. 
Total entry for GDP in Risalpure 116 boys 4 girls.
This is for everyone sending me emails and who are intouch with me I will guide you follow me stay with me and you will pass I will not tell one of my students to pass you ( sifarish ) but yes if you clear CMB then I will bend my rule for Sifarish because you have earned it and you should be given a chance by putting you on the list. *

And please for 3 members stop sending me thank you cards I am doing this because you are the future of Pakistan and my nature is to pass along all what I was taught by my Instructors to all of you and all of you are dear to me there are no Favorites.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## netgeek

Wow! Thats A nice update Sir!..
InshAllah we will make it up to CMB..
I have been selected after initial test, and yes i was thinking why this time the test was soo hard In my City Multan up till now only 18 Candidates can qualify for Medical Test.Let See How many of them can make it up to ISSb.
My medical is On 20th n i was wondering what they gonna do as they have told me to Come Completely Shaved  + Wear loose cloths(Shalwar kameez) and do bring a ball point. Everything is fine but A ball point ? That is Suspicious


----------



## Patriot

Well they will check your testicles and put something in ur *** for like few seconds lolz.


----------



## netgeek

PAFAce said:


> This means they are re-opening the selection. I'm glad. I'll be contacting them soon, InshAllah, regarding GD(P) for graduates. I'll see if I can get your questions answered along with mine. If I do, I'll post them here for everyone's benefit.



Regarding Your question I have asked the same for one of my friend who want to Join Gdp after completing BS..
here in my City Multan the Selection Center people are not that bad.. so what they answered me is that initially they are approaching For Fsc recruitment after a very long time span, so nothing could be said about the graduates cuz may be the next time they will induct Candidates from Bs level instead of Fsc.. So Hope for the Best and Keep in Touch..


----------



## netgeek

Patriot said:


> Well they will check your testicles and put something in ur *** for like few seconds lolz.



Kool! yeah i have an idea they check number of testicles.. but why do they need to check all this ? where does it matters ?


----------



## Muradk

netgeek said:


> Kool! yeah i have an idea they check number of testicles.. but why do they need to check all this ? where does it matters ?



Testicles are nothing they make you bend and put a pen  up your *** to see if you have hamorides and tell you to cough loud 3 to 4 times and don't be shy if there is a lady around if they tell you to take every thing off do it. Basically they are checking for Hamoriods , Knee knocking, Flat foot, Eye side, Color blindness. The shaving thing comes in it makes you look clean. Take my word for it start fingering your As- because the pen goes prettydeep

OHHHH this is hilarious

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## netgeek

Fiiiishh!!! Why Not Sir Why.. Why i will shy in front of a lady, what making me scare is i hope those doctors etc wont be pathan or you know what i mean.
And about Pen thingy.. Dont worry i will bring the thinnest n shortest ball point with me as they have told me to bring along my self 
I will share it as soon as i will experience it what happened and what they do, what i just hope is whatever they do will be shareable


----------



## Righteous_Fire

Muradk said:


> It just pisses me off these OC selection Center don't pick there phones nor do they answer any questions when kids approach them. I have got a about 50 emails on this I promise this will be taken care of with 24 hours. Specially for Karachi, Lahore and Pindi.



Hay Sir! you forgot about Peshawar!


----------



## r0ck

Muradk said:


> Testicles are nothing they make you bend and put a pen  up your *** to see if you have hamorides and tell you to cough loud 3 to 4 times and don't be shy if there is a lady around if they tell you to take every thing off do it. Basically they are checking for Hamoriods , Knee knocking, Flat foot, Eye side, Color blindness. The shaving thing comes in it makes you look clean. Take my word for it start fingering your As- because the pen goes prettydeep
> 
> OHHHH this is hilarious



Awh man......this is awful!!


----------



## Righteous_Fire

netgeek said:


> i hope those doctors etc wont be pathan or you know what i mean.





Not an Islamic or nice joke!  I am an Afghan (Pushtun). Those words are not even decent. I hope you regret what you said. 

-----------------------------------------------------------

I completely disagree with such inspection practices in our armed forces. Since I am a doctor, I know they are all useless and trivial attempts at achieving nothing. They maybe practices in all the rest of the world armed forces but they are:

1) Medically completely and BSly unnecessary,
2) Completely Un-Islamic,
3) Totally In-humane.

----------------------------------------------------------

I hope some major big wig Doctor General changes them for the better. I cant forget how embarrassed some of my friends were when they joined the Medical Corps.


----------



## Muradk

I am a 3rd gen Pathan but when it came to medical I didn't give a hoot. 
Just remember boys don't give them a pen with a cap  They use the back end of a pen not the nib.
I went through this 49 years Ago. But at that time there were no ballpens so they used to have sticks of kiker lined up and shove the kiker up your As-.


----------



## Righteous_Fire

Muradk said:


> I am a 3rd gen Pathan but when it came to medical I didn't give a hoot.
> Just remember boys don't give them a pen with a cap  They use the back end of a pen not the nib.
> I went through this 49 years Ago. But at that time there were no ballpens so they used to have sticks of kiker lined up and shove the kiker up your As-.



*for a few moments there, I was thinking to myself  Goddamn! what's a kiker!!! , * 

Ouch!  *that would hurt Sir Murad!! *. Poor souls.

-------------------------------------------------------

Let me just point out the Medical aspect of these practices. Medically all these checks are outdated. There are far better and efficient and dare I say *Humane* tests that are far more accurate. I hope, along with the modernization of other branches of the Armed forces, the Medical Branches also get modernized.


----------



## netgeek

righteous_fire said:


> Not an Islamic or nice joke!  I am an Afghan (Pushtun). Those words are not even decent. I hope you regret what you said.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I completely disagree with such inspection practices in our armed forces. Since I am a doctor, I know they are all useless and trivial attempts at achieving nothing. They maybe practices in all the rest of the world armed forces but they are:
> 
> 1) Medically completely and BSly unnecessary,
> 2) Completely Un-Islamic,
> 3) Totally In-humane.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I hope some major big wig Doctor General changes them for the better. I cant forget how embarrassed some of my friends were when they joined the Medical Corps.



Oh. I regret I am Sorry I never meant to offend anyone. was just a joke and nothing else


----------



## FlyingEagle

PAFAce said:


> This means they are re-opening the selection. I'm glad. I'll be contacting them soon, InshAllah, regarding GD(P) for graduates. I'll see if I can get your questions answered along with mine. If I do, I'll post them here for everyone's benefit.



Thankyou Sir. But please ask them to make an opportunity for girls in GDP for graduates.


----------



## FlyingEagle

PAFAce said:


> This means they are re-opening the selection. I'm glad. I'll be contacting them soon, InshAllah, regarding GD(P) for graduates. I'll see if I can get your questions answered along with mine. If I do, I'll post them here for everyone's benefit.



Sir please ask them to allow girls in Graduation course.


----------



## Atria

Muradk said:


> I am a 3rd gen Pathan but when it came to medical I didn't give a hoot.
> Just remember boys don't give them a pen with a cap  They use the back end of a pen not the nib.
> I went through this 49 years Ago. But at that time there were no ballpens so they used to have sticks of kiker lined up and shove the kiker up your As-.



I wonder how did it feel? 
You told this in other threads too, I thought you were joking (hehe)
but if it's in real, it's pretty embarrassing


----------



## Super Falcon

well well well when we wanted job in paf no one helped us any way i hope it will change now and our armed forces provide national people with more jobs


----------



## SSGPA1

unstopabl3 said:


> Not trying to be a hardass here but last time I went to the PAF Information center located in my vicinity (Cantt, Lahore) to get information on how to join PAF, it's requirements etc, the clerk at the information booth gave me a helpline number and told me I that should call that number to get my answers.



Arey yaar I wasn't trying to say buzz off. I regret if you feel offended.


----------



## SSGPA1

Muradk said:


> Testicles are nothing they make you bend and put a pen  up your *** to see if you have hamorides and tell you to cough loud 3 to 4 times and don't be shy if there is a lady around if they tell you to take every thing off do it. Basically they are checking for Hamoriods , Knee knocking, Flat foot, Eye side, Color blindness. The shaving thing comes in it makes you look clean. Take my word for it start fingering your As- because the pen goes prettydeep
> 
> OHHHH this is hilarious



haha ... this reminds me of one more thing that if your medical is in Jan or Feb time frame then be prepraed to handle Karachi's cold in an underwear.

Basically you sit in an underwear for 2 - 3 hrs in a waiting room with little furniture. I hope things have changed in the last few yrs but some how I doubt it


----------



## PAFAce

righteous_fire said:


> Let me just point out the Medical aspect of these practices. Medically all these checks are outdated. There are far better and efficient and dare I say *Humane* tests that are far more accurate. I hope, along with the modernization of other branches of the Armed forces, the Medical Branches also get modernized.


Does knee-knocking affect your ability to become a good fighter pilot, medically speaking? Or is this just another carry-over from the WWII pilot testing PAF currently puts its candidates through.

In the Canadian Forces, the testing for physical dimensions is computerized. They have models of the CF aircraft inventory built into a software, and every candidate is tested against each aircraft. Therefore, if you will have trouble meeting the CF-18 cockpit dimensions, it doesn't automatically rule you out from flying the P-3. By doing this, the CF make sure that tests are not "one-size-fits-all" and none of the tests are wasteful and useless. As far as I am concerned, the PAF should learn from this. An Air Force that cannot adapt with time is looking for trouble.



FlyingEagle said:


> Sir please ask them to allow girls in Graduation course.


I surely will if I get the opportunity.


----------



## Muradk

Knee knocking has nothing to do with flying but with KK you cant parade. How to fix it horse riding 2 months of strap a foot ball between your legs.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AliFarooq

Sir i just passed the initial test today, from multan for GDP pilot it was tough, only a few made it.

I have the medical test on friday, i hope i pass it.

Does any one kno, about eye sight weakness, how weak your eyes can be.


----------



## Atria

AliFarooq said:


> Sir i just passed the initial test today, from multan for GDP pilot it was tough, only a few made it.
> 
> I have the medical test on friday, i hope i pass it.
> 
> Does any one kno, about eye sight weakness, how weak your eyes can be.



it should be 20/20 (6/6)


----------



## AliFarooq

netgeek said:


> Wow! Thats A nice update Sir!..
> InshAllah we will make it up to CMB..
> I have been selected after initial test, and yes i was thinking why this time the test was soo hard In my City Multan up till now only 18 Candidates can qualify for Medical Test.Let See How many of them can make it up to ISSb.
> My medical is On 20th n i was wondering what they gonna do as they have told me to Come Completely Shaved  + Wear loose cloths(Shalwar kameez) and do bring a ball point. Everything is fine but A ball point ? That is Suspicious



I probbably saw you today, i passed it also, and they told me the same thing.

What batch were you, and ur table number?

and good luck with the medical test.


----------



## Muradk

AliFarooq said:


> I probbably saw you today, i passed it also, and they told me the same thing.
> 
> What batch were you, and ur table number?
> 
> and good luck with the medical test.



Watch out they have started to take interviews right after the medical out of 200 17 passed , after medical 8 passed after the interview 6 passed for ISSB.


----------



## Muradk

AliFarooq said:


> I probbably saw you today, i passed it also, and they told me the same thing.
> 
> What batch were you, and ur table number?
> 
> and good luck with the medical test.



Watch out they have started to take interviews right after the medical out of 200 17 passed , after medical 8 passed after the interview 6 passed for ISSB.

One complain I got from the OC you guys stop chewing gums. they notice everything so stay sharp.


----------



## Atria

hahaha 
by the way, does that knee knocking and especially that pen doing something...hurts? it's really embarrassing.


----------



## netgeek

^Yeah That is what i am worried of :p

@ Sir Murad: Wooah! that interview thingy is new.. today is my medical let see what they do after medical and in medical


----------



## PAFAce

Lol. It's funny to hear all these testing procedures. I am getting excited just hearing all about the tests.

All the best to everyone trying out for this. As Murad Khan Sahab said, stay sharp and represent us well. Be confidant and well-behaved. InshAllah, you will meet with success.

Oh, and make sure to keep us informed. Remember, regardless what happens, maintain your dignity and be proud of yourselves, at least you had the courage to swing the bat, now whether you hit a six or get bowled is not up to you.

*Edit*
Here's the official flier.
PAF Permanent Commission as an Officer
Unfortunately, according to this, August 16 was the last day to register.


----------



## unstopabl3

Can't wait for the members to respond back with their medical testing experience. Good luck!


----------



## unstopabl3

So guys what's the verdict?


----------



## AliFarooq

they told us to bring the pen so we could write our info on the fourms. I passed the medical, now i have an interview on the 26th.


----------



## Y2A

*


araz said:



Mr Lahori
Could you please stop opening threads with one liners and questions. It clogs the forum and is a waste of band width. Please ask any questions that you have in the PAF Q+A section. Believe me , there is one.
WaSalam
Araz

Click to expand...


Respected sirs, 

Isn't it little harsh to say like this , i am also junior member and know very littile about the matter of military avionics and all that so few question which were poping up in my mind are now dead and buried as , i mean to say it remind me of my school days when my math teacher use to say "the question you are asking has been answered previously", and i never knew it then, at least seniors can point to the respective thread by giving link, its the same feeling which i get in the class. *


----------



## Y2A

Y2A said:


> *
> 
> Respected sirs,
> 
> Isn't it little harsh to say like this , i am also junior member and know very littile about the matter of military avionics and all that so few question which were poping up in my mind are now dead and buried as , i mean to say it remind me of my school days when my math teacher use to say "the question you are asking has been answered previously", and i never knew it then, at least seniors can point to the respective thread by giving link, its the same feeling which i get in the class. *


*Nah..sudharnay ka koi chance nahee.......i was then a bad boy and eat the brain out of my teachers, hope all seniors won't mind when i start doing the same.*


----------



## araz

Y2A
I like a bit of spunk in a newcomer.however, every senior has a certain responsibility to teach your juniors and a cluttered forum does not allow us to see all the threads much less educate anyone. My response to lahori was after seeing about 6-7 threads opened with one liners .dForums are to debate and project your view point not one liners.
my response to him was also civil. So i dont know why you find it so harsh.
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zarbe Momin

*whether it was necessary and logical to start a new nonproductive topic*.!!!!


----------



## Muradk

Y2A said:


> *
> 
> Respected sirs,
> 
> Isn't it little harsh to say like this , i am also junior member and know very littile about the matter of military avionics and all that so few question which were poping up in my mind are now dead and buried as , i mean to say it remind me of my school days when my math teacher use to say "the question you are asking has been answered previously", and i never knew it then, at least seniors can point to the respective thread by giving link, its the same feeling which i get in the class. *



First Mr Araz is right second your teacher was right too. Please do us a favor don't use the whole text in Bold please.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

yes im also confused over here about the inventories of f16 in PAF and the total no of f16 that PAf is going to receive.


----------



## LiberalPakistani

none so far and will not have any F-16 Blk 50/52 til another 8 years or so....there's no chance so far what's going on right now


----------



## Arsalan

Y2A said:


> *
> 
> Respected sirs,
> 
> Isn't it little harsh to say like this , i am also junior member and know very littile about the matter of military avionics and all that so few question which were poping up in my mind are now dead and buried as , i mean to say it remind me of my school days when my math teacher use to say "the question you are asking has been answered previously", and i never knew it then, at least seniors can point to the respective thread by giving link, its the same feeling which i get in the class. *



well i need not say much as two of the most senior and respected members have already explained it to you and i hope you will understand them!
moreover dear, if one have some question in mind like this one then 
1. better check the existing thread about F16, 
2. second option would have been to ask it in the relavent threads dedicated to questions:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/10260-air-force-question-thread.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/8600-air-force-monthly-news-discussions.html
3. if not so, then one may have asked on the thread about F16 discussion:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/15226-pakistan-f-16-discussions-2-a.html
so in presence of all these options, opening a thread for one liner thread is not going to do any good to the forum oand the posters image!
seniors are here to guide, they must be helpful in nature and i guess they absolutely are! just trying to consult someone and do this in the right place, you wont be disappointed!

no offense!
best wishes,

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

this says it all:



Muradk said:


> First Mr Araz is right second your teacher was right too. Please do us a favor don't use the whole text in Bold please.




regards!


----------



## BORNTOKILL

I also passed initial , medical & interview tomorrow i have to submit the ISSB form ..

RAZA K


----------



## BORNTOKILL

And ali don`t worry interview is just a piece of cake .They will just ask you about your family and some girly stuff ( girl friend and dating stuff ) . So just be yourself don`t fake . You will pass Inshallah .One thing more tell exactly what your father do as you have written in the initial registration form , because the interviewee will ask you questions about your family from the same form you filled.The registration form is in front of the OC when he is interviewing you , so tell exactly as you filled before.

Best of luck 

RAZA K

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## FlyingEagle

Best of luck to all the candidates.


----------



## PAFAce

I e-mailed the GSO last Thursday, exactly seven days ago, regarding many of the questions people here had including some of my own. I haven't heard anything yet. I was wondering, is it part of the GSO's job description to answer questions for interested personnel? If it isn't, then I can understand why he hasn't replied, he probably thought it was a waste of his time. But if it is, then this is a poor reflection on the professionalism of the entire force and must be rectified immediately.

So, is it part of his/her job description?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## FlyingEagle

Strange............


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

i need help here.
can any one tell me,is there any aircraft display program at masroor airbase karachi this 6 or 7 september?or it helds somewhere else in karachi?
how to get there and is there any kind or restriction for common people?
plz do answer it!


----------



## base_alpha_8

danger-zone said:


> i need help here.
> can any one tell me,is there any aircraft display program at masroor airbase karachi this 6 or 7 september?or it helds somewhere else in karachi?
> how to get there and is there any kind or restriction for common people?
> plz do answer it!



i asked tht abt lahore... still waiting for someone to reply .. gud luck


----------



## AliFarooq

I passed the interview, but IBCC wont give me an equilance certificate for FSc pre eng, bcuz i didnt take chemistry in grade 11 in canada but i have taken grade 12 chemistry.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

i need help here.
can any one tell me,is there any aircraft display program at masroor airbase karachi this 6 or 7 september?or it helds somewhere else in karachi?
how to get there and is there any kind or restriction for common people?
plz do answer it!


----------



## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> i need help here.
> can any one tell me,is there any aircraft display program at masroor airbase karachi this 6 or 7 september?or it helds somewhere else in karachi?
> how to get there and is there any kind or restriction for common people?
> plz do answer it!


well i know that it will be there at chaklala airbase atleast and that is what i am most concerned about!! 
atleast here there is no restriction for common civilians to visit the air base to enjoy the exhibation! 

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

well i know that it will be there at chaklala airbase atleast and that is what i am most concerned about!! 
atleast here there is no restriction for common civilians to visit the air base to enjoy the exhibation! 

regards!


----------



## Muradk

Let me ask the DPR about the venue and get back to you. PAF bases never have restrictions for civilians during such events there is always another Guardroom from Civilians , If not this time they will be checking every one, You can take a bottle of water and your camera that is it, Because if this policy has been enforced in Chaklala it will be forces on all bases. I will also check if thunders are on display or not because of the security and the events which took place in the last 4 days that might change PAF plans. Last thing you want some As-whole blowing up one of our F-16 or thunder.
Let em check its 11.30 in the night in Pakistan *I will call him at 8 AM and what ever he says I will inform the mod where he can get a thread out to all members about the venue *


----------



## base_alpha_8

thank u sir !... ... anxiously waiting for the day ..


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Muradk said:


> Let me ask the DPR about the venue and get back to you. PAF bases never have restrictions for civilians during such events there is always another Guardroom from Civilians , If not this time they will be checking every one, You can take a bottle of water and your camera that is it, Because if this policy has been enforced in Chaklala it will be forces on all bases. I will also check if thunders are on display or not because of the security and the events which took place in the last 4 days that might change PAF plans. Last thing you want some As-whole blowing up one of our F-16 or thunder.
> Let em check its 11.30 in the night in Pakistan *I will call him at 8 AM and what ever he says I will inform the mod where he can get a thread out to all members about the venue *



thank you so much sir murad,but still confused about karachi.there are two PAf bases Faisal and Masroor,where it is going to held?


----------



## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> thank you so much sir murad,but still confused about karachi.there are two PAf bases Faisal and Masroor,where it is going to held?



acoording to Sir.MuradK


> I will call him at 8 AM and what ever he says I will inform the mod where he can get a thread out to all members about the venue


i hope you understand this simple englisg sentense being more knowledgeable then many, , , 

regards!


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

arsalanaslam123 said:


> acoording to Sir.MuradK
> 
> i hope you understand this simple englisg sentense being more knowledgeable then many, , ,
> 
> regards!



ohhhhhh 
welll ill wait then.. thanx


----------



## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> ohhhhhh
> welll ill wait then.. thanx



that will be fine,, 
anyway, if you have any trouble finding it there in Karachi come here to chaklala airbase, 
be my guest friend!!


regards!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## FlyingEagle

PAFAce said:


> I e-mailed the GSO last Thursday, exactly seven days ago, regarding many of the questions people here had including some of my own. I haven't heard anything yet. I was wondering, is it part of the GSO's job description to answer questions for interested personnel? If it isn't, then I can understand why he hasn't replied, he probably thought it was a waste of his time. But if it is, then this is a poor reflection on the professionalism of the entire force and must be rectified immediately.
> 
> So, is it part of his/her job description?



Any reply from their side?


----------



## PakShaheen79

I know any one can only make a guess here but there are couple of question in my mind about THUNDERS
1- Will PAF raise number of active fighter squadrons after replacing F-7Ps, Mirages, A-5Cs etc.?

2- If answer of above question is "YES" then how many we must raise from current level?


----------



## PAFAce

FlyingEagle said:


> Any reply from their side?


No ma'am. I'll try again in a few days, see if they wake up.



AliFarooq said:


> I passed the interview, but IBCC wont give me an equilance certificate for FSc pre eng, bcuz i didnt take chemistry in grade 11 in canada but i have taken grade 12 chemistry.


Congratulations. Maybe you can contact your Canadian province/city's school board for help. Electrical/Mechanical/Civil Engineering requirements for Ontario students' when I applied in 2006 simply stated "one of Grade 12 University Chemistry or Biology" along with mandatory Physics, 2 Mathematics and English, also of University level. If you took all this, you meet the requirements in Canada. Then surely, you must also meet requirements in Pakistan as well. Let me know if you need any assistance.

Also, did you apply remotely from Canada or are you presently in Pakistan?


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

arsalanaslam123 said:


> that will be fine,,
> anyway, if you have any trouble finding it there in Karachi come here to chaklala airbase,
> be my guest friend!!
> 
> 
> regards!



have u seen wat sir.murad have post there in the event thread, no civilians are allowed .it was the first time that i got free time to visit paf base.
well if i have much money,ill surely come on ur invitationand thanx for inviting
if ur not civilian and going chaklala on 6,then must bring Thunders pix.


----------



## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> have u seen wat sir.murad have post there in the event thread, no civilians are allowed .it was the first time that i got free time to visit paf base.
> well if i have much money,ill surely come on ur invitationand thanx for inviting
> if ur not civilian and going chaklala on 6,then must bring Thunders pix.


well it is an information, civilians were allowed to visit the base in the past, i myself visited it three times although it was sometime ago but i dont think there were any restrictions even in last few years, however i will check it out and will try to involve some man in uniform from my relatives and try to sneak in there,, 
it will be difficult to manage time for me this year but with lots of new procurement and chance that they might be dsiplayed i will surely try to go!!

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> I know any one can only make a guess here but there are couple of question in my mind about THUNDERS
> 1- Will PAF raise number of active fighter squadrons after replacing F-7Ps, Mirages, A-5Cs etc.?
> 
> 2- If answer of above question is "YES" then how many we must raise from current level?



i dont think that any one is going to give you an exact answer as those who are concerned will try to keep it under cover for time being,
however i do not think there will be much increase in number of squadrons as initially the planes will be replacing our existing fleet,,
the major increase may occure once we get the FC20 in PAF colors!

hope it helped,
do not wait for someone to come up with exact number as it wont be made public!

regards!


----------



## PakShaheen79

Dude! concealing a whole squadron is not that easy. Markings on planes and insignia on pilot uniform can give some idea which squadron they flew for.Then PAF will be building more shelters for these fighters or new bases may be so concealing is not that easy.

The reason i asked this was, till 9/11 all focus was on Eastern side but after US invasion into Afghanistan i think scenario has changed and Pakistan will have to build some bases on West of Indus as well. There are few in Baluchistan but we need more. So once new air bases are there new (read additional) squadrons will be there.


----------



## Arsalan

*concealing them is not so easy* do not mean that one should go and speak out loud about the exact numbers on such public forums,
it is quite simple point if you want to understand!

regards!


----------



## FlyingEagle

What about Nucleous, Ali Farooq, Borntokill and Netgeek? They receive their ISSB calls or not?


----------



## Nucleus

FlyingEagle said:


> What about Nucleous, Ali Farooq, Borntokill and Netgeek? They receive their ISSB calls or not?



hehe I haven't even completed my A-Levels yet :p


----------



## FlyingEagle

Nucleus said:


> hehe I haven't even completed my A-Levels yet :p



okey...........what about others??????????//


----------



## AliFarooq

PAFAce said:


> No ma'am. I'll try again in a few days, see if they wake up.
> 
> 
> Congratulations. Maybe you can contact your Canadian province/city's school board for help. Electrical/Mechanical/Civil Engineering requirements for Ontario students' when I applied in 2006 simply stated "one of Grade 12 University Chemistry or Biology" along with mandatory Physics, 2 Mathematics and English, also of University level. If you took all this, you meet the requirements in Canada. Then surely, you must also meet requirements in Pakistan as well. Let me know if you need any assistance.
> 
> Also, did you apply remotely from Canada or are you presently in Pakistan?



I was in pakistan at that time, i went and talked to the chairman of IBCC, i told him about the university requirement in Canada. I showed him my university documents that i was in first year engineering in Canada. The fagget was stuck on, "You don't meet the requirements for FSc cause you did not take chemistry in grade 11. You can either go back to Canada and retake chemistry or take it in Pakistan."

The person who took my interview, i talked about this and he told me, he would let me go on to ISSB, but once i passed that i would still need FSc equivalence to join the academy. 

Now im back in canada


----------



## SQ8

Anybody have any idea what the Sarab-1 was ??.. according to Wikipedia it was a botched attempt by Pakistan to design an A2A missile based on the magic.


----------



## Arsalan

santro said:


> Anybody have any idea what the Sarab-1 was ??.. according to Wikipedia it was a botched attempt by Pakistan to design an A2A missile based on the magic.



no i dont think so,
perhaps it is being confused with Saber II project whoom many sources claim to be a cancled project and the one from which JF17 was born,, 
not that JF have any technical research related to that cancled project but after cancelation due to lack of fund PAF latter chosed to go for a new project that produced JF17:
the following is a paragraph from wikipedia, i hope it wil give you some insight!


> After a successful deal with China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) in the early 1980s resulting in the Chengdu F-7M Airguard, the United Kingdom offered a further upgrade to improve the performance of the F-7M by adopting either General Electric F404 or Pratt & Whitney PW1120 turbofan engines. The radar options would include the Red Fox, a repackaged version of the Blue Fox radar used on Sea Harrier FRS Mk 1, and the Emerson AN/APG-69. Although radar tests were successful, the upgrade was rejected before any engine tests because both the radar and engine cost more than a new J-7 (2 million 1984 United States Dollars). The name Super-7, however, was to be used again for later projects.
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) started looking for a new fighter to replace their large fleet of Shenyang F-6 in the late 1980s.[14] Despite upgrades such as ability to fire the AIM-9 Sidewinder and Martin Baker ejection seats, the F-6 fighters were becoming obsolete and their ageing airframes were approaching the end of their service lives. The PAF initiated Project Sabre II, a programme to re-design the Chengdu F-7 airframe with more modern avionics from the United States.
> 
> In January 1987, a contract was awarded to Grumman Aerospace of Bethpage, New York, to study and define the Sabre II concept with cooperation from CAC and PAF specialists. The study was completed after seven months and concluded that the project was a financial risk due to very high costs and other options were much more cost-effective, despite the prospects of producing Sabre II in Pakistan and giving the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex more experience and technical knowledge.[14]
> 
> Under Project Sabre II, considered a replacement of the abandoned Super-7 project by the Chinese, the F-7 airframe was redesigned with air intakes on the sides of the fuselage replacing the nose intake. Located behind and below the cockpit, the side-mounted intakes were angled for improved airflow during high angle of attack. The F-7 nose intake was replaced by a solid nose radome, planned to house the General Electric AN/APG-67 radar used on the F-20 Tigershark. An extra hardpoint was added under each wing, inboard of the hardpoints already present, for carrying a pair of AIM-9L air-to-air missiles. The resulting aircraft looked much like the Guizhou JL-9 (or FTC-2000) jet trainer / fighter aircraft.
> 
> Project Sabre II was terminated in 1989, due to the breaking of relations between the U.S. and China after the Tiananmen Square protest. The PAF decided on a much less expensive solution for replacement of the F-6, the Chengdu F-7P Skybolt, an upgraded version of the F-7M Airguard. The F-7P fleet was to be supported by a fleet of over 100 advanced F-16 Fighting Falcons from the United States, 40 of which had been delivered during the 1980s.




regards!


----------



## SQ8

probable that it is the case.. I do however concretely remember the director of AWC in 99 telling me that they were working on an A2A missile. I suppose nothing came of it.


----------



## Arsalan

santro said:


> probable that it is the case.. I do however concretely remember the director of AWC in 99 telling me that they were working on an A2A missile. I suppose nothing came of it.



it is heared that we are waiting some A2A missiles under licienced production i guess,
however H2 and H4 are a sure case but they are air to ground, penetration bombs,,,

regards!


----------



## brahmastra

Do Pakistan airforce prefers two seater fighters? if yes, why? no then why?


----------



## Arsalan

are you talking about twin seater or twin engine bro???
well for twin seater there are some F7 and F16 twin seat versions as far as i know!
also JF17 may see a twin seat version and it was stated by senior officials of PAF. JF17 twin seat version may caome handy for more dedicated roles such as ground air support or even in marine time role!
there is nothing like a NO to twin seat planes, but yes, for twin engine planes it is a NO by PAF for atleast another 10 years!!
i hope this helped you!!

regards!


----------



## unstopabl3

AliFarooq said:


> Now im back in canada



Do you still plan to join PAF or have you given up?


----------



## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> AMK Lodhi ( Arshad Muhammad Kamran Lodhi ) he retired in 59 later he joined PIA.



ABDUL MAJEED KHAN Lodhi. Great friend of Air Marshal Jamal Ahmad Khan. Died in January of 2000 (if I recall correctly, maybe 2001) and is buried in Cranbury, NJ.


----------



## Maliha Arooj

Salam everyone,
This is Maliha , i want to knw that what are the requirements and opportunities for females in PAF and whats the criteria. can anyone help me in this regard PLZ


----------



## FlyingEagle

Maliha Arooj said:


> Salam everyone,
> This is Maliha , i want to knw that what are the requirements and opportunities for females in PAF and whats the criteria. can anyone help me in this regard PLZ



Just visit : : : Pakistan Air Force Official Website: : :
Then select----->Carrer in PAF----->Click on "As an Officer"----->download Officers carreir brochure.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## AliFarooq

unstopabl3 said:


> Do you still plan to join PAF or have you given up?



I'll go back next year, this time ill take the grade 11 chemistry in night school.


----------



## shr_bwp

AliFarooq said:


> ...snip.... The fagget was stuck on, "You don't ...snip



What is a "fagget"?


----------



## bilal1219

Its could mean either of the 2 words, Happy Or Homosexual. In other words, "Gay"


----------



## shr_bwp

bilal1219 said:


> Its could mean either of the 2 words, Happy Or Homosexual. In other words, "Gay"



Oh you think he meant "faggot"???

In that case, may I humbly suggest to poster "AliFarooq" who hopes to be an officer in the Pakistan Air Force that the first time he encounters a difficulty, calling the other guy a homosexual, is perhaps not appropriate....

Perhaps AliFarooq may consider a different approach to successfully engage and pass the ISSB process......one that shows persistence, determination, patience, and above all consideration for the other guy's position. In fact, this could be a selling point for him, since he can make the case that "despite all the hurdles put in his way, here he is trying to make a successful entrance into the AF, through the ISSB - i.e. I took my lumps, but here I am still determined to join"

What do you think?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Wingman

Maliha Arooj said:


> Salam everyone,
> This is Maliha , i want to knw that what are the requirements and opportunities for females in PAF and whats the criteria. can anyone help me in this regard PLZ




Yeah in all fields except GD(P)...


----------



## Wingman

shr_bwp said:


> Oh you think he meant "faggot"???
> 
> In that case, may I humbly suggest to poster "AliFarooq" who hopes to be an officer in the Pakistan Air Force that the first time he encounters a difficulty, calling the other guy a homosexual, is perhaps not appropriate....
> 
> Perhaps AliFarooq may consider a different approach to successfully engage and pass the ISSB process......one that shows persistence, determination, patience, and above all consideration for the other guy's position. In fact, this could be a selling point for him, since he can make the case that "despite all the hurdles put in his way, here he is trying to make a successful entrance into the AF, through the ISSB - i.e. I took my lumps, but here I am still determined to join"
> 
> What do you think?



"Faggot" was the name of the aircraft, just like F-16 "fighting falcon",
F-6 "farmer". JF-17 "Thunder", A-5 "Fantan", F-104 "StarFighter" Please check this out

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## FlyingEagle

dreamer said:


> Yeah in all fields except GD(P)...



Bad luck for.......


----------



## shr_bwp

dreamer said:


> "Faggot" was the name of the aircraft, just like F-16 "fighting falcon",
> F-6 "farmer". JF-17 "Thunder", A-5 "Fantan", F-104 "StarFighter" Please check this out



Correct: it is the NATO designation for the MiG-15. 

But poster AliFarooq was not referring to a plane - he called the person who he was dealing with a "fagget".......


----------



## Wingman

FlyingEagle said:


> Bad luck for.......



Bad Luck for???

I think u still have the chance to join PAF before the age of 28 in IT deptt. I sincerely advice go for it...


----------



## Wingman

Please note Sir MuradK is sick and hospitalized may not be able to attend the forum for few days..


----------



## AliFarooq

shr_bwp said:


> Oh you think he meant "faggot"???
> 
> In that case, may I humbly suggest to poster "AliFarooq" who hopes to be an officer in the Pakistan Air Force that the first time he encounters a difficulty, calling the other guy a homosexual, is perhaps not appropriate....
> 
> Perhaps AliFarooq may consider a different approach to successfully engage and pass the ISSB process......one that shows persistence, determination, patience, and above all consideration for the other guy's position. In fact, this could be a selling point for him, since he can make the case that "despite all the hurdles put in his way, here he is trying to make a successful entrance into the AF, through the ISSB - i.e. I took my lumps, but here I am still determined to join"
> 
> What do you think?



its not about being patience, i wouldn't mind going back to pakistan next year and giving the test again. Theres only one problem with that, there might not be seats for GDP ppilots next year or the following year. I might not even get a chance before i reach the age limit.

Secondly when ever they give the advertisment in the papers, its always on a short notice.

The guy was a pathan :p


----------



## shr_bwp

AliFarooq said:


> its not about being patience, i wouldn't mind going back to pakistan next year and giving the test again. Theres only one problem with that, there might not be seats for GDP ppilots next year or the following year. I might not even get a chance before i reach the age limit.
> 
> Secondly when ever they give the advertisment in the papers, its always on a short notice.
> 
> The guy was a pathan :p



I am sorry to hear that: welcome to the uncertain nature of things in Pakistan!!! 

AliFarooq, may I suggest that, while good for a laugh, a stereotype is just that: a stereotype. Funny, nonetheless, but still a stereotype. 

You end up judging an individual by the actions of a few (now where else have we heard that?.....hmmm...."all muslim are terrorists" comes to mind) is not healthy...


----------



## Huda

un ka koi religion nhi hota islam is a religion of peace they are mindless people woh hum mayse nhi hai


----------



## Wingman

PAFAce said:


> Naah. You're just 25, with an additional 25 years of experience.
> 
> Though I must say, I thought you would be younger. It's just that, in old age, people tend to become negative ("is mulk ka kuch nahi ho sakta" rants etc.), and you seem to be quite positive. I guess that's what makes military retirees different from civilian retirees.



The fatman17 says " I am 17 with 33 years of experience"


----------



## Wingman

shr_bwp said:


> ABDUL MAJEED KHAN Lodhi. Great friend of Air Marshal Jamal Ahmad Khan. Died in January of 2000 (if I recall correctly, maybe 2001) and is buried in Cranbury, NJ.



Do You know any further details of AMK Lodhi Sb?? Please throw some light, I am searching the forum but could not find any detail, in what contest his name was used...


----------



## Patriot

shr_bwp, are you ex-paf officer ;p?


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

this question is realated to army-portion,but this is an aviation forum so i wana ask a question about PAK-ARMY PUMA helis.

*first see these pix of puma helicopter flying at the GHQ*.














*it looks like this puma,*



*rather then PAK-ARMY's regular puma*.





if u watch it closly.the puma at GHQ has a different jet intake as compare to regular pak army puma.
so my question is.
*1-is that a newer version?
2-is it done by Pak-avation?
3-when pakistan get those helis?*

im not regular at defence.pk now a days,if any body hav any strong information about it plz also write my answers at my profile wall,or msge me.cuz its hard to search a page after many days.
regards


----------



## TaimiKhan

danger-zone said:


> this question is realated to army-portion,but this is an aviation forum so i wana ask a question about PAK-ARMY PUMA helis.
> 
> *first see these pix of puma helicopter flying at the GHQ*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *it looks like this puma,*
> 
> 
> 
> *rather then PAK-ARMY's regular puma*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if u watch it closly.the puma at GHQ has a different jet intake as compare to regular pak army puma.
> so my question is.
> *1-is that a newer version?
> 2-is it done by Pak-avation?
> 3-when pakistan get those helis?*



That may be the ex-UAE puma which were rumored to have been bought by Pakistan & refurbished by the French.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

taimikhan said:


> That may be the ex-UAE puma which were rumored to have been bought by Pakistan & refurbished by the French.



ohhh god,silly me
i opened my own old thread to find the answer that pakistan geting tiger helis or not.but the last post of that thread was posted by sir.FATMAN.he told there somthing about puma upgrade.
i think thats the answer of my question.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/28110-new-pakistan-military-helicopters-3.html

FATMAN said:
"*the PAA has the capability to overhaul every helo in its inventory - but when it comes to upgrades like the recent upgrades of the PUMA, the helo's have to be sent to the supplier / manufacturer.

in this regard Kamra is ahead of the PAA central workshop's *"


----------



## FlyingEagle

dreamer said:


> Bad Luck for???...



Obviously for Pakistani Girls



dreamer said:


> I think u still have the chance to join PAF before the age of 28 in IT deptt. I sincerely advice go for it...



Thanks dear for the suggestion. Currently I'm heading a software house and in IT Industry this a very good post. Alhamdolillah I am sucessfull in running that portion of a company for which people think it will not work and has to be close. This gives me the feeling of honor and pride. For IT I'll not leave this company.

Allah Almighty always give me success Alhamdolillah, except GDP. But I'm trying and will keep on trying untill get my goal (GDP) or become inelligible for it, Inshaw Allah.


----------



## FlyingEagle

And one thing more I love to do impossible things. At least try them bcoz impossible itself says "I M Possible"


----------



## bilal1219

thats an indian movie dialougue


----------



## FlyingEagle

bilal1219 said:


> thats an indian movie dialougue



Really I dont know bcoz have no interest in indian movies. Impossible is a thing which is not tryed.


----------



## Wingman

FlyingEagle said:


> Obviously for Pakistani Girls
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks dear for the suggestion. Currently I'm heading a software house and in IT Industry this a very good post. Alhamdolillah I am sucessfull in running that portion of a company for which people think it will not work and has to be close. This gives me the feeling of honor and pride. For IT I'll not leave this company.
> 
> Allah Almighty always give me success Alhamdolillah, except GDP. But I'm trying and will keep on trying untill get my goal (GDP) or become inelligible for it, Inshaw Allah.



For GD(P) in PAF i said earlier the last age to apply is 22 years, I wish you have not crossed that!!! Check website Welcome to Thunder City if you have at least 1 million and above you can have joy rides in mach 2.0 fighters...


----------



## Wingman

FlyingEagle said:


> Really I dont know bcoz have no interest in indian movies. Impossible is a thing which is not tryed.



Can you tell me the name of your father?? and in which branch he used to work in PAF? PM me


----------



## FlyingEagle

dreamer said:


> For GD(P) in PAF i said earlier the last age to apply is 22 years, I wish you have not crossed that!!! ...



Ohh dear 22 is for F.Sc and 30 for B.Sc.


----------



## shr_bwp

Patriot said:


> shr_bwp, are you ex-paf officer ;p?



Not at all. I would have been an utter disgrace!!!!


----------



## shr_bwp

dreamer said:


> Do You know any further details of AMK Lodhi Sb?? Please throw some light, I am searching the forum but could not find any detail, in what contest his name was used...



Notice the photo I use as my avatar? This is the famous Sabre formation. Mr. Lodhi was one of the pilots in the formation. I believe someone listed the names of the participants and in fact YOU may have asked who was AMK Lodhi. 

MuradK replied that it was Arshad Mohammad Kamran Lodhi, when in fact it was Abdul Majeed Khan Lodhie. I hope this answers your question.


----------



## Wingman

shr_bwp said:


> Notice the photo I use as my avatar? This is the famous Sabre formation. Mr. Lodhi was one of the pilots in the formation. I believe someone listed the names of the participants and in fact YOU may have asked who was AMK Lodhi.
> 
> MuradK replied that it was Arshad Mohammad Khan Lodhi, when in fact it was Abdul Majeed Khan Lodhie. I hope this answers your question.



Formation Led by

Wing Commander M Z Masud with

Squadron Leaders Sadruddin, Aftab Ahmed, S M Ahmed, S U Khan, Nazir Latif, Ghulam Haider

FLT LTs, Middle coat, A M K Lodhi, H Anwar, A U Ahmed, S S Haider, Munir, Waqar Azim, Jamal A Khan, M Arshad


----------



## Wingman

shr_bwp said:


> Notice the photo I use as my avatar? This is the famous Sabre formation. Mr. Lodhi was one of the pilots in the formation. I believe someone listed the names of the participants and in fact YOU may have asked who was AMK Lodhi.
> 
> MuradK replied that it was Arshad Mohammad Khan Lodhi, when in fact it was Abdul Majeed Khan Lodhie. I hope this answers your question.



Dear I said earlier I did not find details, I thought u will submit some details but you simply came up in just quoting the name only, anyways I gathered some info wanted to share with you as well


----------



## shr_bwp

dreamer said:


> Dear I said earlier I did not find details, I thought u will submit some details but you simply came up in just quoting the name only, anyways I gathered some info wanted to share with you as well



Capt. Lodhie (from his PIA days) was a " PAF original": flew F86s - one of the ferry pilots, flew B57s - commanded 8 Squadron twice ('62, '64 - I believe) Please refer to "The Story of PAF: a saga of courage and honour) for exact details. He flew some B57 bombing missions in '65, returning from PIA for the duration of the war- the details are obscure now.

For PIA he flew everything from Super Connies to the 747 (if I recall correctly). He was grounded due to heart ailment and had ground assignments with PIA. He migrated to the US and lived a retired life, when in January 2001 his heart gave in.

He was personal friend of AM Jamal (they used to visit regularly when Jamal Sahib would be in the US) as well as AC Khaqan Abbasi, and AM Asghar Khan.

Hamid Anwar, by the way, is also here and living in Chicago, last I recall.

I hope this helps.

I have other details but they are of personal nature.


----------



## Patriot

So i guess you are Ex-PAF pilot :p?


----------



## Wingman

shr_bwp said:


> Capt. Lodhie (from his PIA days) was a " PAF original": flew F86s - one of the ferry pilots, flew B57s - commanded 8 Squadron twice ('62, '64 - I believe) Please refer to "The Story of PAF: a saga of courage and honour) for exact details. He flew some B57 bombing missions in '65, returning from PIA for the duration of the war- the details are obscure now.
> 
> For PIA he flew everything from Super Connies to the 747 (if I recall correctly). He was grounded due to heart ailment and had ground assignments with PIA. He migrated to the US and lived a retired life, when in January 2001 his heart gave in.
> 
> He was personal friend of AM Jamal (they used to visit regularly when Jamal Sahib would be in the US) as well as AC Khaqan Abbasi, and AM Asghar Khan.
> 
> Hamid Anwar, by the way, is also here and living in Chicago, last I recall.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> I have other details but they are of personal nature.



Thanks, for the details. It was really interesting. I feel sorry for A M K Lodhi Sb.

He commanded 7 SQN. as Sqn. Ldr in (a) Aug 1960 (b) Jan 1964

Note: You can share personal stuff at my email ID


----------



## shr_bwp

Patriot said:


> So i guess you are Ex-PAF pilot :p?



No. Captain Sahib was a family friend.


----------



## shr_bwp

dreamer said:


> Thanks, for the details. It was really interesting. I feel sorry for A M K Lodhi Sb.
> 
> He commanded 7 SQN. as Sqn. Ldr in (a) Aug 1960 (b) Jan 1964
> 
> Note: You can share personal stuff at my email ID



I suppose you meant "sad" instead of "sorry" - he had lead a full life and now is with God.

The personal information I have is about his family (who they are, where they are, etc) - nothing that will help you.

Whenever I get a chance I will see if the PAF will release the mission information about his war experience - perhaps somewhere in 7 Squadron records, are his activities.

He belonged to the generation that did not think it was a big deal that they risked his life - that is just what they did for their country. Very selfless generation. He would not share the mission details at all, just "I did my job".

While I appreciate the attitude, I do think that the generation that fought the wars need to be recognized and their deeds need to be recorded just as the deeds of other warriors across the centuries and nations and races, have been.


----------



## Wingman

TO: Shr_Bwp:

I hope you will ignore my top class english, how can I compete with you; living in USA, while (I am) living in Pakistan?

No doubt that generation was really great.


----------



## shr_bwp

dreamer said:


> TO: Shr_Bwp:
> 
> I hope you will ignore my top class english, how can I compete with you; living in USA, while (I am) living in Pakistan?
> 
> No doubt that generation was really great.



Arrey yaar, I understood what you meant - I just wanted to make sure that humarey aur bhai bhi should be on the same page.

How about my Urdu???


----------



## Wingman

shr_bwp said:


> Arrey yaar, I understood what you meant - I just wanted to make sure that humarey aur bhai bhi should be on the same page.
> 
> How about my Urdu???



Looks good


----------



## shr_bwp

dreamer said:


> TO: Shr_Bwp:
> 
> I hope you will ignore my top class english, how can I compete with you; living in USA, while (I am) living in Pakistan?
> 
> No doubt that generation was really great.



....moreover, I can introduce to some people here in the US, born and bred, and the English they speak will make you cringe. So do NOT believe that we in the US have any special mastery of the English language, believe you me!


----------



## BlackenTheSky

hey guys can any one tell me how these squadrons are made in air force..i mean on what basis they are made??


----------



## Stealth

Is there any chance Pakistan ask for KC 135 for Air-2-Air F16 refuelling and also US AWACS ????


----------



## hyper878

As-Salam-Wa-Alikum =)

I need some information regarding Air force recruitment for 2009 , as a Pilot...

Can some one please help me with the registration form or information where i can contact.
I live in Sharjah, UAE and it can be a little difficult for me to get the form.
If some one can help me with the registration information and the dates i can work it out.
my details are as follows

16 Years
Grade 10 O'levels
low eyesight (-3).

Would really appreciate if some one could help me ASAP.


Thank You.

Allah Hafiz =)

Please provide me with the telephone number if u can for Karachi .


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

i ve seen falcon20 of france.
but i couldent findout the purpose of DA-20 FALCON of PAF.

second where did all those mirage-3 ep go?


----------



## Patriot

DA-20 Falcon is using for ELINT and SIGNAL Intelligence.


----------



## FlyingEagle

hyper878 said:


> As-Salam-Wa-Alikum =)
> 
> I need some information regarding Air force recruitment for 2009 , as a Pilot...
> 
> Can some one please help me with the registration form or information where i can contact.
> I live in Sharjah, UAE and it can be a little difficult for me to get the form.
> If some one can help me with the registration information and the dates i can work it out.
> my details are as follows
> 
> 16 Years
> Grade 10 O'levels
> low eyesight (-3).
> 
> Would really appreciate if some one could help me ASAP.
> 
> 
> Thank You.
> 
> Allah Hafiz =)
> 
> Please provide me with the telephone number if u can for Karachi .



Have look on "How to join PAF" thread in this fourm. Ur question is related to that. The contact info for karachi is 

Telephone No Office: 021-9240340 
Fax Number 021-9512119 

Visit the following link

PAKISTAN AIR FORCE - Official website

I think u are not medically fit bcoz of ur eyesight problem.


----------



## Wingman

hyper878 said:


> As-Salam-Wa-Alikum =)
> 
> I need some information regarding Air force recruitment for 2009 , as a Pilot...
> 
> Can some one please help me with the registration form or information where i can contact.
> I live in Sharjah, UAE and it can be a little difficult for me to get the form.
> If some one can help me with the registration information and the dates i can work it out.
> my details are as follows
> 
> 16 Years
> Grade 10 O'levels
> low eyesight (-3).
> 
> Would really appreciate if some one could help me ASAP.
> 
> 
> Thank You.
> 
> Allah Hafiz =)
> 
> Please provide me with the telephone number if u can for Karachi .


weak eye sight.... not fit for flying try other branches..


----------



## Super Falcon

In 13 of last July (2007) Russia announced officially on the successful experience of the first missile complex land / atmosphere model (s -400) and is intended to defend the capital Moscow and its environs, the Russian armed forces and has since decided Earlier in the deployment of almost (30) complex is similar in all parts of the country to provide integrated protection against any air attack hostile air and say that Russia has more than (30) complex of the previous model (s - 300) will be replacing all during the period from mid-year and even the end of 2015 style with the latest (s - 400) and is characterized by the latter from its predecessor that the range of its missiles and rockets beyond the heads of self-destructive direction for this classified compounds (s - 400) as the fourth generation of air defense systems and is the world's only could fire many missiles land / air arsenal in the world and though they are not able to intercept ballistic missiles, intercontinental, it can intercept and destroy targets or other air vehicles from all types of modern aircraft, including those that have the capabilities and hidden through the rocket Raft Alballestsp and missiles flying at speeds of up to (3) miles per second and the end of Baldanat smart self-direction can also destroy the missiles radar stations and command and control centers, in addition to any important strategic objectives


look at this for PAF


----------



## razgriz19

is there any agressor squadron in PAF?
if there isn't then i think they should make one and equipe them with mirage! 
i think its a pretty capable a/c in terms of maneuverability. i have seen many french mirages doing crazy things.....


----------



## Taha Samad

don't know for sure but i think CCS at Sargodha has mirage-III


----------



## shr_bwp

In this post, the poster obliterated the author's name for some reason.

Can anyone tell me who the author is?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/678946-post319.html


----------



## Wingman

shr_bwp said:


> In this post, the poster obliterated the author's name for some reason.
> 
> Can anyone tell me who the author is?
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/678946-post319.html



So that You do not Call Him.........


----------



## shr_bwp

Sorry Dreamer and Muradk, but I now know that the author of the book is Air Commodore(Retired) Khaleel Ahmad.


----------



## shr_bwp

dreamer said:


> So that You do not Call Him.........



I have better things to do than call "Him".


----------



## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> There we go again.



..and where are we going?


----------



## Wingman

shr_bwp said:


> Sorry Dreamer and Muradk, but I now know that the author of the book is Air Commodore(Retired) Khaleel Ahmad.



Thanks a Million dear...Hope you will be Tension Free now


----------



## Wingman

shr_bwp said:


> I have better things to do than call "Him".



We are waiting for such BETTER things and we want you to do better things rather than going after for only one thing


----------



## Wingman

shr_bwp said:


> ..and where are we going?



Perhaps MURADK is expecting another confusing thing from you


----------



## Wingman

shr_bwp said:


> Sorry Dreamer and Muradk, but I now know that the author of the book is Air Commodore(Retired) Khaleel Ahmad.



Can you find that Book and if possible get some pages scanned and send it on PDF, PLEASE


----------



## su-47

Just a quick doubt...which is more dangerous, negative G-force or Positive G-force? Which is harder to recover from?


----------



## TaimiKhan

su-47 said:


> Just a quick doubt...which is more dangerous, negative G-force or Positive G-force? Which is harder to recover from?



Read the below, it will give you a good idea. Do read the *Vertical axis g-force* section as it can give some insight to your question. 

g-force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Starion

shr_bwp said:


> ABDUL MAJEED KHAN Lodhi. Great friend of Air Marshal Jamal Ahmad Khan. Died in January of 2000 (if I recall correctly, maybe 2001) and is buried in Cranbury, NJ.



Captain Abdul Majeed Khan Lodhie. 
Born: 1931
Died: 1/30/2001 at 6:55PM. 
Name of the Cemetery : Jersey State Memorial Park, Millstone,NJ.

Captain Lodhie also received a best pilot trophy by Air Commodore Kelly, Chief of staff Royal Pakistan Air Force, at the Passing-Out Parade at Risalpur on Monday, December 24th, 1951. For more details please refer to The Pakistan Times archives 

He also voluntarily participated in the 1971 war. 


Please refer to the following link that has more detail in regards to the sixteen Pakistan Air Force Sabres rehearsing their diamond formation aerobatics.

flightglobal[dot]com/pdfarchive/view/1958/1958%20-%200189.htm


----------



## razgriz19

why does everybody love(except US) two piece canopy?


----------



## Wingman

One of the more notable features one piece canopy from a pilot&#8217;s perspective is the exceptional field of view from the cockpit, a feature that is vital during air-to-air combat. The single-piece, bird-proof bubble canopy provides 360&#176;

The Aircrafts like F16 ejection does not include the pilot breaking the canopy at all, since the entire one piece canopy is ejected before ignition of the ejection seat. Also, one piece canopies like in F16 and F22 are very, very thick because they have none of the supporting features found on old style canopies with struts. If Canopy Fails to Separate, the top of the seat can also give a clue with the cutting edges slightly above headrest level.

The all- transparent canopies (F-16, F-22 etc.) are indeed very useful and helping features compared with canopies divided by frames. Just try to fly them and compare the sensation, alertness and comfort it gives! But it is not for explanations. It was simply found to be very good thing to have.


----------



## razgriz19

dreamer said:


> One of the more notable features one piece canopy from a pilots perspective is the exceptional field of view from the cockpit, a feature that is vital during air-to-air combat. The single-piece, bird-proof bubble canopy provides 360°
> 
> The Aircrafts like F16 ejection does not include the pilot breaking the canopy at all, since the entire one piece canopy is ejected before ignition of the ejection seat. Also, one piece canopies like in F16 and F22 are very, very thick because they have none of the supporting features found on old style canopies with struts. If Canopy Fails to Separate, the top of the seat can also give a clue with the cutting edges slightly above headrest level.
> 
> The all- transparent canopies (F-16, F-22 etc.) are indeed very useful and helping features compared with canopies divided by frames. Just try to fly them and compare the sensation, alertness and comfort it gives! But it is not for explanations. It was simply found to be very good thing to have.



exactly wat i was trying to say, but then why dont chinese use single piece canopy in j-10 or in thunders?


----------



## SQ8

Here is something to keep people thinking. Why would a F-7PG pilot and good one at that make the following statement:
"Now we don't fight in close combat..its old concept..tactics have totally changed.."
For all I remember the PG was strictly a WVR fighter.. or was it??? :S


----------



## Luftwaffe




----------



## fatman17

*Turning the Old Into New*

*Vendors should be helping cash-strapped air forces upgrade aircraft, writes former Pakistani Air Commodore Azfar A Khan.*

Date: 30 Nov 2009 

In recent times a number of nations such as Israel, South Africa and Pakistan have carried out large-scale programmes to upgrade aircraft, and by doing so have avoided the high expense - on average a new fighter plane costs about $50m - that comes with replacement.

There are several ways an upgrade can be made cheaper for air forces around the world  something for all technology vendors to keep in mind.

If the upgrade is done locally, for example, the cost for the end user can be brought down. Manpower is another issue  keeping installation and the manufacture of items in-house will make an upgrade proposition more valuable not only in terms of cost but also because exposing defence teams to new technology reduces training and upkeep costs.

From Australia to Pakistan

In the 1990s, the Pakistan Air Force purchased 42 Mirage-IIIs from Australia and discarded the avionics systems, replacing them with a new state-of-the-art system that boosted performance and efficiency. These aircraft were upgraded at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra by local factory Kamra Avionics and Radar Factory (KARF).

"By upgrading an existing fleet it is, to a great extent, possible to attain the performance and efficiency of new aircraft."The upgrade was carried out in collaboration with French company Sagem, which provided expertise and most of the equipment. The avionics package included an inertial navigation system, head-up display, an airborne video tape recording system, communication systems, computers, data bus, IFF, user interface and self-protection systems such as Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), and a chaff and flares dispenser. 

These systems have been growing in complexity, and their importance has been heightened as the technology has advanced. Modern airborne radar, Grifo-M, was also retrofitted.

Extensive planning was required for the project, called Retrofit of Strike Element (ROSE), to work. A project team was formed to oversee it, and regular review meetings were held alternatively in Pakistan and France, where problems were brought up and solved.

The factory engineers and technicians were actively involved in the upgrade, and some parts were manufactured and quality-checked at the PAC factories. Only the avionics systems were upgraded, not the entire aircraft, which brought further cost savings.

Once the upgrade for the first aircraft was complete, Pakistan Air Force test pilots flight-tested all the new equipment and validated its performance. The new technology installed proved a resounding success. By going through this process, the local engineers and technicians of the Pakistan Air Force acquired experience and gained confidence to undertake any similar project with confidence in future, while the Mirage received new capabilities that improving its performance in battle dramatically. This exercise also saved Pakistan's cash-strapped air force a huge amount of foreign exchange.

As good as new

By upgrading an air force's existing fleet it is, to a great extent, possible to attain the performance and efficiency of new aircraft. Another benefit is that the pilots and the ground crew need only be trained on those systems that are being upgraded as the remaining systems remain the same. It also means that upgrades are carried out as they become affordable. As such, upgrading is an option vendors should also be careful to consider when proposing technologies to forces around the world.

Air Force Technology

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## sur

*Is there any videos and photos of PAF practicing landing/takeoffs on M-2 Motorway???*


----------



## F86 Saber

Can someone please post a picture of an air craft properly labled for the understanding of a novice like me (For example, as i have learned here that the two fin like things under the canopy of the Euro fighter are called canards) ?? If such a pic has already been posted please guide me to it..... 

Also is there a specific thread or post having the full version of the most commonly used abbreviations like AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) or AMRAAM(Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile)?


----------



## hassan1

http://img705.imageshack.us/i/mirrageonmotorwayl.jpg/

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Wingman

FT7, landing on motorway......


----------



## Wingman

F86 Saber said:


> Can someone please post a picture of an air craft properly labled for the understanding of a novice like me (For example, as i have learned here that the two fin like things under the canopy of the Euro fighter are called canards) ?? If such a pic has already been posted please guide me to it.....
> 
> Also is there a specific thread or post having the full version of the most commonly used abbreviations like AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) or AMRAAM(Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile)?



This will help you out

http://www.eu-digest.com/uploaded_images/eurofighter-launching-long-range-missile-769701.jpg


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

hassan1 said:


> http://img705.imageshack.us/i/mirrageonmotorwayl.jpg/



DAMN


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

although PAF using the most advance version of MIRAGE-3 family.
if the designer of first ever mirage some how could see PAF mirage's cockpit,he might die by hart attack.even it looks more beautiful then mirage-2000h.
but my question is
*"PAF mirage-5 is installed with FLIR device under cockpit for night vision.but can these mirage-3/5 load LGBs with FLIR-pod under belly and four bombs on jettisonable fuel tank"*
thanks in advance for accurate reply.
regards


----------



## TaimiKhan

danger-zone said:


> although PAF using the most advance version of MIRAGE-3 family.
> if the designer of first ever mirage some how could see PAF mirage's cockpit,he might die by hart attack.even it looks more beautiful then mirage-2000h.
> but my question is
> *"PAF mirage-5 is installed with FLIR device under cockpit for night vision.but can these mirage-3/5 load LGBs with FLIR-pod under belly and four bombs on jettisonable fuel tank"*
> thanks in advance for accurate reply.
> regards



Yes it can take LGBs with the FLIR Pod and do attack. PAF Mirages have been doing PGM strikes in the current operation in tribal areas. 

But the load of the missiles would be as per the weapon load carrying capacity of the Mirage. Without fuel tanks, it can easily take any kind of bombs on its hard points, but as said, the overall weight of the bombs should not exceed the total weight capacity. 

But with a full weapon load without fuel tanks, the radius of the aircraft gets reduced unless it can refuel in the air, as with full weapon load the aircraft needs a lot of power to take off and a lot of fuel is spent in that process. 

But its doable.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TaimiKhan




----------



## DANGER-ZONE

@*taimikhan*
plz look at these pictures.




ECM pod under bally,and bombs under fuel tank.








Ground attack armament consists normally of two 30 mm DEFA 552A guns in fuselage, each with 125 rounds of incendiary, high-explosive or armour-piercing ammunition, and two 454 kg (1,000 lb) bombs, or an AS 30 air-to-surface missile under the fuselage and 454 kg (1,000 lb) bombs under the wings. *Total external load, on five hardpoints 4,000 kg (8,818 lb). Alternative underwing stores include combined tank/bomb carriers, each with 500 litres (132 US gallons; 110 Imp gallons ) of fuel and 907 kg (2,000 lb) of bombs; JL-100 pods, each with 250 litres (66 US gallons; 55 Imp gallons) of fuel and 18 rockets; jettisonable underwing fuel tanks*. For interception duties, one Matra R.530 air-to-air missile can be carried under fuselage, with optional guns and two Matra Magic missiles.

now the orange Mirage shows that belly hard point posses electronic linking or weapon loading,so it can also be attached with FLIR targeting pod.
and special fuel tanks can also be loaded with 4 or 2 GBU-12 weighing 2000 lbs or 1000lb total respectively.


----------



## niaz

fatman17 said:


> *Turning the Old Into New*
> 
> *Vendors should be helping cash-strapped air forces upgrade aircraft, writes former Pakistani Air Commodore Azfar A Khan.*
> 
> Date: 30 Nov 2009
> 
> In recent times a number of nations such as Israel, South Africa and Pakistan have carried out large-scale programmes to upgrade aircraft, and by doing so have avoided the high expense - on average a new fighter plane costs about $50m - that comes with replacement.
> 
> There are several ways an upgrade can be made cheaper for air forces around the world  something for all technology vendors to keep in mind.
> 
> If the upgrade is done locally, for example, the cost for the end user can be brought down. Manpower is another issue  keeping installation and the manufacture of items in-house will make an upgrade proposition more valuable not only in terms of cost but also because exposing defence teams to new technology reduces training and upkeep costs.
> 
> From Australia to Pakistan
> 
> In the 1990s, the Pakistan Air Force purchased 42 Mirage-IIIs from Australia and discarded the avionics systems, replacing them with a new state-of-the-art system that boosted performance and efficiency. These aircraft were upgraded at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra by local factory Kamra Avionics and Radar Factory (KARF).
> 
> "By upgrading an existing fleet it is, to a great extent, possible to attain the performance and efficiency of new aircraft."The upgrade was carried out in collaboration with French company Sagem, which provided expertise and most of the equipment. The avionics package included an inertial navigation system, head-up display, an airborne video tape recording system, communication systems, computers, data bus, IFF, user interface and self-protection systems such as Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), and a chaff and flares dispenser.
> 
> These systems have been growing in complexity, and their importance has been heightened as the technology has advanced. Modern airborne radar, Grifo-M, was also retrofitted.
> 
> Extensive planning was required for the project, called Retrofit of Strike Element (ROSE), to work. A project team was formed to oversee it, and regular review meetings were held alternatively in Pakistan and France, where problems were brought up and solved.
> 
> The factory engineers and technicians were actively involved in the upgrade, and some parts were manufactured and quality-checked at the PAC factories. Only the avionics systems were upgraded, not the entire aircraft, which brought further cost savings.
> 
> Once the upgrade for the first aircraft was complete, Pakistan Air Force test pilots flight-tested all the new equipment and validated its performance. The new technology installed proved a resounding success. By going through this process, the local engineers and technicians of the Pakistan Air Force acquired experience and gained confidence to undertake any similar project with confidence in future, while the Mirage received new capabilities that improving its performance in battle dramatically. This exercise also saved Pakistan's cash-strapped air force a huge amount of foreign exchange.
> 
> As good as new
> 
> By upgrading an air force's existing fleet it is, to a great extent, possible to attain the performance and efficiency of new aircraft. Another benefit is that the pilots and the ground crew need only be trained on those systems that are being upgraded as the remaining systems remain the same. It also means that upgrades are carried out as they become affordable. As such, upgrading is an option vendors should also be careful to consider when proposing technologies to forces around the world.
> 
> Air Force Technology



Presume that upgrade of the Mirages or any other aircraft also includes complete rebuild/ structural overhaul as well. This would involve replacing all parts /panels reaching end of their structural life. If this is not the case than the article above does not present a true picture. 

A brand new aircraft is good for 20 years. It is debatable whether 
Avoinics upgrade without increasing total flight hours would be cost effective. Higher operating cost of an old aircraft over a much shorter life span may not be worth it.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Found this F-7 with CFT concept.


----------



## Xtremeownage

*How much would needed to be invested if Pakistan decided to make a completely indigenous aircraft?

Also, what aspects of the plane do we have complete indigenous capabilities, and which aspects of the plane (ie. Engine making/designing) do we need advances in?*


----------



## niaz

Xtremeownage said:


> *How much would needed to be invested if Pakistan decided to make a completely indigenous aircraft?
> 
> Also, what aspects of the plane do we have complete indigenous capabilities, and which aspects of the plane (ie. Engine making/designing) do we need advances in?*



It is possible that Pakistan could design aircraft frame &#8216;ab initio&#8217; with proper software. But this will only be on paper. We don&#8217;t have technology to manufacture aircraft engines. Therefore Pakistan won&#8217;t be able to design and build a complete aircraft in flying condition. 

It is estimated that an all metal aircraft frame uses about 20&#37; Titanium. Additionally, in modern military aircrafts a large percentage of &#8220;Composites&#8217; are also used as these are lighter and tougher than metal, though far more difficult to repair. Don&#8217;t think we have metallurgy skills to forge Titanium and /or Composites. 

Indian LCA is still waiting for a suitable power plant and JF-17 wouldn&#8217;t have been to fly without the Russian engines. Even Swedish Grippen uses US made engines.

As a rough guess, it would cost at least $500-million in R&D (with manpower cost at Pakistani levels) for a brand new design to come to fruition. However, even a country like Israel had to give up on &#8216;Lavi&#8217; as being too costly to produce on its own. Europeans form a consortium (pooling of resources) of 2 to 3 countries and it takes 10 years in R&D before an aircraft finally emerges. Rotary aircraft is even more complex to design and build.

Most companies that started aircraft manufacture were initially car manufacturing firms.
So far Pakistan has not yet made a car or a truck of it own design. I mean manufacturing all parts of the car including the body and the engines from scratch. We don&#8217;t make engine for Al Khalid either. These come from Ukraine. 

Co-production with China is a great enough achievement for a country such as Pakistan which is short on cash as well as technical manpower. It is much cheaper to buy an aircraft in complete knocked down condition and assemble it locally. We should start with manufacturing spare part parts before we can even start to think of complete manufacture of an aircraft or a helicopter from scratch.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## pg7

What was meant by air shield air chief was referring to


----------



## razgriz19

how can u tell the difference between mi-8 and mi17?!


----------



## Imran Khan

difrent between them is

larger TV3-117MT engines

rotors

transmission development

large door 

armor plates around the cockpit area and engines

Eight have a loading ramp in place of the usual clamshell doors

fuselage improvements for heavier loads

The designation Mi-17 is for export; Russian armed forces call it Mi-8MT. The Mi-17 can be recognized because it has the tail rotor on the port side instead of the starboard side, and dust shields in front of the engine intakes. Engine cowls are shorter than on the TV2 powered Mi-8, not extending as far over the cockpit, and an opening for bleed-valve outlet is present forward of the exhaust.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

Hello everyone!

Since we cannot refrain from dragging ourselves into India vs Pakistan talk in every thread, i am starting this thread for a simple question. I request you to please refrain from posting useless remarks. 

The question is that i read in the Sunday Dawn news (last page), an interview with the ACM Rao Qamar that Pakistan is planning on getting 14 extra BLK 52 f-16s on top of 18 already on order. Then he says that after june, Turkish Aerospace Industries will upgrade our existing f-16s. But he says all remaining F-16s to be upgraded to blk 52......what does he mean by that? I mean can we plug in the An/APG 66 with newer APG 68??? Also wouldn't that require structural changes? Because i am of the impression that the existing 32 f-16s will get the MLUs only in Turkey

Please elaborate on that, if possible, check the Sunday March 28th 2010 Dawn news, last page.


----------



## jagjitnatt

I too am skeptical about the report because upgrading A/B variants to C/D requires structural changes which are not feasible. It would be better to buy a new F16 than to upgrade an existing one.

I don't think A/B variants would be upgraded. They are reaching their end of life soon. It would be wise to replace them with newer block 52 F16s


----------



## zagahaga

no not blk 52 but 40 standards .... and upgradeing them is much better than to buy them..... our f 16 areknown world wide for takeing care of them soo i really dont think there a problem


----------



## jagjitnatt

zagahaga said:


> no not blk 52 but 40 standards .... and upgradeing them is much better than to buy them..... our f 16 areknown world wide for takeing care of them soo i really dont think there a problem



even block 40 are C/D airframes. The last A/B variant was block 20. Although it has a few features of block 52 but they are too restricted by their frames.

I still believe upgrading would be waste of money specially in 2010. They will have to be replaced in this decade itself

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Rain

I my opinion if APG 68 is integrated in A/B along with other MLUs it will be worthy of its bucks


----------



## Luftwaffe

Rain APG 68 is in F-16 C block 25/30 APG 68(V)1 is integrated in block 40/42


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

100% block C/D level , MLU , avionics and capability sure there will be 4-5% difference but that will be trivial 

Going up from A/B standards to 95% Block C/D level with enhanced avionics and radars should be sufficient defensive upgrade for Pakistan Airfroce


----------



## Myth_buster_1

People should do a research on PAF MLU M3 upgrades and then talk before pretending to be ACMs. MLU M3 has as much important systems as block 52+ but not 100&#37; the same and also PAF may opt for MLU M4/5 for newly inducted block 15 which has very few flying hours clocked in them.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Donatello

Growler said:


> People should do a research on PAF MLU M3 upgrades and then talk before pretending to be ACMs. MLU M3 has as much important systems as block 52+ but not 100% the same and also PAF may opt for MLU M4/5 for newly inducted block 15 which has very few flying hours clocked in them.




As i said it would be better if you could read Dawns news Sunday paper, March 28th. The Air Chiel Marshal clearly states it.


As for those who think it would not be worthy, the money is being paid by the US government most probably under the coalition support fund.


----------



## Luftwaffe

penumbra..whether its a coalition support fund or not its not free we've done things for them we deserve to get those funds but everything in our inventory has been paid for by PAF nothing comes free to me there is no such thing as free from us of a.

jagjitnatt...a decade of service is far too good if these airframes can give us service of 10 years that i consider a miracle.


----------



## Donatello

luftwaffe said:


> penumbra..whether its a coalition support fund or not its not free we've done things for them we deserve to get those funds but everything in our inventory has been paid for by PAF nothing comes free to me there is no such thing as free from us of a.
> 
> jagjitnatt...a decade of service is far too good if these airframes can give us service of 10 years that i consider a miracle.




I was referring to an earlier post where they said we should not be wasting our money on our older f-16. Thats what i exactly meant, we deserve upgrades for the jets which we paid for by ourselves. Americans, if they cannot give us weapons free of cost, then at least they can help us upgrade them free of cost for what we have done for them.


----------



## F86 Saber

luftwaffe said:


> penumbra..whether its a coalition support fund or not its not free we've done things for them we deserve to get those funds but everything in our inventory has been paid for by PAF nothing comes free to me there is no such thing as free from us of a.
> 
> jagjitnatt...a decade of service is far too good if these airframes can give us service of 10 years that i consider a miracle.



Ahmmm a decade is actually 10 years .....


----------



## Luftwaffe

so? read again 
a *decade *of service is far too good if these airframes can give us service of *10 years* that i consider a miracle.
did i not say 10 years = decade?

And actually 10 Years is worth something to keep flying those upgraded block F-16s


----------



## bc040400065

jagjitnatt said:


> I too am skeptical about the report because upgrading A/B variants to C/D requires structural changes which are not feasible. It would be better to buy a new F16 than to upgrade an existing one.
> 
> I don't think A/B variants would be upgraded. They are reaching their end of life soon. It would be wise to replace them with newer block 52 F16s



How can u say this. What u will say about the norway, denmark, holland and other countries which upgraded their F16 to newer standards???? and what u think PAF is mad that they will spend over a billion dollars on upgrade when according to u it is not feasible...?? If u first get some info about the 2006 F16 deal u would find out the items that PAF ordered ... TAI will only get the equipment bought by PAF and then upgrade the 42 F16. 4 are already under MLU in USA.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

luftwaffe said:


> so? read again
> a *decade *of service is far too good if these airframes can give us service of *10 years* that i consider a miracle.
> did i not say 10 years = decade?
> 
> And actually 10 Years is worth something to keep flying those upgraded block F-16s



NOTE: 

These P-3s are hardly used and most of the cases have not been used at all! Recently delivered P-3C Update II.5 are the newest of all P-3 and their air frame can easily take 20 years of service.


----------



## Luftwaffe

good if they can drag to 20 years..I was explaining to mr. F-86 that even those airframes he consider so old if dragged to 10 Years are more than enough for their life and worth buying or and maintaining.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

This question has been answered in the F-16 sticky, several times.

IIRC, the MLU'd F-16's will be equivalent to the Block 52's in terms of avionics, radar etc., but not in terms of hardpoints, engines and range.

*Thread closed. Please read through the existing threads to see if your question has been answered, or post your question on this thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/10260-air-force-question-thread.html

Don't start new threads just to ask a question - they will be deleted without notice from now on.*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Here are the details of the MLU, courtesy Blain2 and PAFAce:



> The MLU upgrade kits will include: APG-68(V)9 radar; Embedded GPS/INS (EGI); Link-16 data link; APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF); Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map; ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pod; Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting; Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS); Reconnaissance Pod capability; improved avionics systems; JDAM capability; EGBU capability; AIM-120 AMRAAM capability; and AGM-84 Harpoon capability. While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity. Overall, the MLU program will extend the service life of Pakistan&#8217;s original F-16 aircraft and very significantly increase the capability of the Pakistan Air Force to conduct Close Air Support and night precision attack missions. I would like to highlight that in parallel with the significant improvement in weapon accuracy gained by precision guided munitions like JDAM, there is the potential to dramatically reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*OK - F-16 MLU thread merged with PAF questions thread.*


----------



## pakistantiger

why not we going towards twin engin fighters when all airforces of the world going towards twin engin than how com we not going is paf and our defence minister is mad or mr 10&#37; wan his share there either


----------



## pakistantiger

why not we going towards twin engin fighters when all airforces of the world going towards twin engin than how com we not going is paf and our defence minister is mad or mr 10% wan his share there either


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

im an artist,making a sketch of jf17.
plz somebody tell me,what kind of targeting pod is attached with thunder.mention the name or post its picture.
REGARDS


----------



## TaimiKhan

danger-zone said:


> im an artist,making a sketch of jf17.
> plz somebody tell me,what kind of targeting pod is attached with thunder.mention the name or post its picture.
> REGARDS



If its Chinese, it would be something like this:

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TaimiKhan



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TaimiKhan




----------



## araz

pakistantiger said:


> why not we going towards twin engin fighters when all airforces of the world going towards twin engin than how com we not going is paf and our defence minister is mad or mr 10% wan his share there either



Pakistan tiger
Twin engined aircraft are chosen if the area one needs to cover is large or you think you will need to carry a lot of armaments a long way. Being twin engined, they need morew looking after and are therefore expensive to maintain. Another reaosn is in case you are going over sea as a single engined aircraft developing a fault would nbe lost totally whereas a twin engined aircraft would survive
Single engined aircrafts on the other hand are easier to maintain, more economical and to some extent, on account of quicker turnaround can deliver almost the same amount of armaments. 
If you look at pakistan, our main adversary is India and our borders are contiguous. Our strategic depth is not enough to warrant a twin engined plane.Even at sea, ouyr economic zone merely extends a couple of hundred miles and being a defensive force we will most likely not utilize our fighters for deep interdiction strikes, instead using missiles and CM. 
Therefore for us it is a logical decision to use single engined aircrafts.
Araz


----------



## razgriz19

are IL-78 cost effective planes to operate?
i mean are they cheap to operate or not??


----------



## Tanzil

what was the total strength of the PAF's fleet and IAF's fleet in 1965


----------



## Tanzil

JK! said:


> There is a two seat version of J10 which would be the ideal platform for this role.


Could J 10 be compared with F 16


----------



## Barrett

araz said:


> Pakistan tiger
> Twin engined aircraft are chosen if the area one needs to cover is large or you think you will need to carry a lot of armaments a long way. Being twin engined, they need morew looking after and are therefore expensive to maintain. Another reaosn is in case you are going over sea as a single engined aircraft developing a fault would nbe lost totally whereas a twin engined aircraft would survive
> Single engined aircrafts on the other hand are easier to maintain, more economical and to some extent, on account of quicker turnaround can deliver almost the same amount of armaments.
> If you look at pakistan, our main adversary is India and our borders are contiguous. Our strategic depth is not enough to warrant a twin engined plane.Even at sea, ouyr economic zone merely extends a couple of hundred miles and being a defensive force we will most likely not utilize our fighters for deep interdiction strikes, instead using missiles and CM.
> Therefore for us it is a logical decision to use single engined aircrafts.
> Araz



I will disagree with you. PAF has operated with two twin engine jets F-6 and A-5s and both these planes have served the country very well. 
As far as the maintenance issue is concerned PAF has a very professional technical staff who can maintain their birds better then most. The current inventory of aging fleet in good condition and very low crash rate is an example. Relatively newer twin-engine jets can still not be as difficult to maintain as the 30-40 year old single engine jets, you can't compromise your national security based on maintenance issues.
So the twin-engine high maintenance argument is not an issue compared to what you are putting the effort for.

Now lets come to the second point of strategic depth, IMHO with or without strategic depth twin-engine jets are more of a plus then negative at any given day. All the modern Air forces in the world are equipping themselves with twin-engine jets either to play the role of an offensive Airforce or to counter such threats playing the defensive role.

The only reason why we don't operate any modern twin-engine jets is because we don't have such relations with Russia and U.S has never offered us any such planes and we don't have enough in our pockets to buy them even if they were available.

PAF would love to operate modern twin-engine jets, do you seriously think if U.S offers us F-15s instead of F-16s we would say no thanks they are very difficult to maintain and we don't have any strategic depth so we don't want them?

cheers.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Defender.pk

IT MAY BE DAY ONLY DEWSIGNATION OR DAY/NIGHT ? PLEASE ELOBRATE


----------



## hataf

Tanzil said:


> what was the total strength of the PAF's fleet and IAF's fleet in 1965



here is the link 
Aerial warfare in 1965 India Pakistan War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

During the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 the PAF was out-numbered 5:1 against the Indian Air Force and, initially, both sides claimed to have downed around 100 aircraft of the opposition during the 23 day war. The PAF fleet at the time consisted of 12 F-104 Starfighters, some 120 F-86 Sabres and around 20 B-57 Canberra bombers.[10] The Indian claim of 100 PAF aircraft downed was proven to be highly exaggerated when 86 F-86 Sabres, 10 F-104 Starfighters and 20 B-57 Canberra bombers were flown in a parade after the war. The InAF is later believed to have admitted the loss of at least 75 aircraft, while the PAF admitted to losing 19 aircraft. The PAF's claim was confirmed by the U.S. Military Assistance Advisory Group. The PAF also claims to have had complete air superiority over the battle area from the second day of operations [11] and it is believed that the Indian Army would agree.[12] Close air support to the Pakistan Army was unexpectedly effective and the PAF is widely considered to have single-handedly neutralised the large difference in military strength of India and Pakistan.[11]


----------



## Mike Wilson

Hello,

Thanks for giving the information about the Air force Question . I like that. Thanks for sharing the useful information about Air force

Thanks
Mike Wilson


----------



## sunakaffck

hey guys before i start i would like to say that this is an excellent forum have read tens of threads and was very impressed.

my question is what the difference between normal version and the naval version combat aircraft's bcoz they cost at least 30% higher than the simple version.


----------



## hataf

sunakaffck said:


> hey guys before i start i would like to say that this is an excellent forum have read tens of threads and was very impressed.
> 
> my question is what the difference between normal version and the naval version combat aircraft's bcoz they cost at least 30&#37; higher than the simple version.



Naval jet should have more power full engine as short runway on aircraft carrier and employee extra component for stopping the plain in short length

These two things I know, others can be told by seniors


----------



## sunakaffck

ok thanks for the info hataf


----------



## zagahaga

our f -16 MLU would there structure be repaired? like there body.. would they have conformal fuel tanks? what about there radar? and would they be head on with the block 50/52?


----------



## gambit

sunakaffck said:


> hey guys before i start i would like to say that this is an excellent forum have read tens of threads and was very impressed.
> 
> my question is what the difference between normal version and the naval version combat aircraft's bcoz they cost at least 30% higher than the simple version.


The stress of a carrier landing demand more robust physical construction, especially of the landing gear system. Here is an example of how complicated something can be in the construction of a naval fighter...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/817476-post17.html

The salt water environment demand higher than normal corrosion resistant materials such as alloys and paint. Although advances in the technology of those two items made all aircrafts, not just naval ones, capable of withstanding the sea environment.


----------



## jagjitnatt

zagahaga said:


> our f -16 MLU would there structure be repaired? like there body.. would they have conformal fuel tanks? what about there radar? and would they be head on with the block 50/52?



The structure would be repaired, slight modifications would be made to the airframe. New radar would be installed, along with new flight control computer, Mission Computer, Advanced Identification Friend-or-Foe system, Wide Angle Conventional HUD, new LCD screens, new display generator, A/V recorder, Improved Data Modem, Digital Terrain System, etc etc.

But no conformal fuel tanks for F16 MLU since the older airframe can not support the weight of the tanks.

They wouldn't be head on with the block50/52. They are different planes. Although the MLU upgrade does add quite a lot of features to older F16s but still they becomes equivalent to only block 40 or so.

Block 50/52 is a different plane.


----------



## Barrett

zagahaga said:


> our f -16 MLU would there structure be repaired? like there body.. would they have conformal fuel tanks? what about there radar? and would they be head on with the block 50/52?



The MLU upgrade kits will include: APG-68(V)9 radar; Embedded GPS/INS (EGI); Link-16 data link; APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF); Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map; ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pod; Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting; Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS); Reconnaissance Pod capability; improved avionics systems; JDAM capability; EGBU capability; AIM-120 AMRAAM capability; and AGM-84 Harpoon capability. While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity. Overall, the MLU program will extend the service life of Pakistan&#8217;s original F-16 aircraft and very significantly increase the capability of the Pakistan Air Force to conduct Close Air Support and night precision attack missions.

And yes they will be close to the Block 50/52


----------



## Defender.pk

1.) status of Aim 7 sparow in PAF.

2)night precision attack capability of PAF F-16 & mirrages.

3) H2 & H4 ARE PGM OR AA BVR MISSILES?

4) BVR MISSILE USED WITH ROSE UPGRADED MIRRAGES . DEVELOPED INDIGENOUSLY?

ANSWERES OF THESE QUESTIONS ARE NOT FOUND ANY WHERE


----------



## Patriot

1.) status of Aim 7 sparow in PAF.
A)Pakistan does not operate Sparrows.
2)night precision attack capability of PAF F-16 & mirrages.
Ans) DAMN GOOD
3) H2 & H4 ARE PGM OR AA BVR MISSILES?
Well we've only heard about it in Media and yes h2 and h4 exist and i am not sure about BVR.
4) BVR MISSILE USED WITH ROSE UPGRADED MIRRAGES . DEVELOPED INDIGENOUSLY?
As above


----------



## shr_bwp

Anybody know to which branch Air Vice Marshal (retired) Bahar ul haq belonged? Supposedly, he is the father of Faisal Shahzad........

Is he the same Sqn Ldr Bahar ul Haq who formed the Sherdils when he was an Instructor in Risalpur (1972)?


----------



## TaimiKhan

shr_bwp said:


> Anybody know to which branch Air Vice Marshal (retired) Bahar ul haq belonged? Supposedly, he is the father of Faisal Shahzad........
> 
> Is he the same Sqn Ldr Bahar ul Haq who formed the Sherdils when he was an Instructor in Risalpur (1972)?



It seems so, as the AVM Bahar Ul Haq retired around 1992, thus if he was a Sqd Ldr in 1972, the profile fits him to be a retired AVM by 1992.


----------



## Blackpearl

Can somebody confirm that Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman is not from F-16 pilot stream, he is basically a Mirage pilot, neither he has commanded F-16 squadron nor Sargodha Airforce Base?


----------



## Patriot

^ That is correct.He has flown mainly Mirages and F6.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## F86 Saber

Ok i have a few very basic and novice questions about PAF from our senior PAF members


1. What kind of call signs do our pilots and ground control use?
2. Which language is used for communication between A/Cs and 
ground control?


----------



## guru8904

F86 Saber said:


> Ok i have a few very basic and novice questions about PAF from our senior PAF members
> 
> 
> 1. What kind of call signs do our pilots and ground control use?
> 2. Which language is used for communication between A/Cs and
> ground control?



The call signs are alloted by the Air Headquarters and the language used for communication is English.


----------



## guru8904

shr_bwp said:


> Anybody know to which branch Air Vice Marshal (retired) Bahar ul haq belonged? Supposedly, he is the father of Faisal Shahzad........
> 
> Is he the same Sqn Ldr Bahar ul Haq who formed the Sherdils when he was an Instructor in Risalpur (1972)?



You are right. He was from flying branch and that's why he was there in the Sherdils.


----------



## Javed3

AVM Bahar ul Haq is from the B-57 Bomber stream. He was OC 7 Sqn Masroor for a long time. His performance during the 1971 war was commendable; known for his consistency under tough conditions when numerous B-57's were lost during night missions.


----------



## F86 Saber

guru8904 said:


> The call signs are alloted by the Air Headquarters and the language used for communication is English.



Thanks, can you also give example of some call signs? Also what kind of importance does a call sign have? I mean are they unique like if there's a call sign allocated to someone it will not change till he retires?


----------



## guru8904

F86 Saber said:


> Thanks, can you also give example of some call signs? Also what kind of importance does a call sign have? I mean are they unique like if there's a call sign allocated to someone it will not change till he retires?



All kinds of words are used for the squadron call signs ranging from regional,historical, cultural and Islamic. Some examples are Shaheen, Khalid, Haider, Arrow etc etc. Individual pilot call signs are not permanent; rather, a squadron is given one call sign and starting from the senior most pilot, the same prefix is used in numerical order e.g. if No. 71 squadron is given the call sign Tiger, then the pilots' call signs will start like Tiger 101, Tiger 102, Tiger 103 and if there are 13 pilots in the squadron, the junior most will have the call sign Tiger 113.
Since most of the flying in fighter squadrons is carried out in formations of 2 or more aircraft, pilots are also allotted formation call signs. Again, they are based on alphabets, colours etc etc e.g. for No. 53 squadron, the formation call signs could be Shaheen Alpha, Shaheen Bravo, Shaheen Charlie or Shaheen Silver, Shaheen Black, Shaheen Red.
There is no such thing as a permanent call sign allotted to an individual pilot. On transfer from one squadron to another, a pilot becomes Eagle 45 from Raider 264. Similarly, the formation call signs also change when you move from one squadron to another.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Muradk

guru8904 said:


> The call signs are alloted by the Air Headquarters and the language used for communication is English.



Call Sings are alloted by the SQD you serve in. AHQ only gives out call signs to pilots who serves AHQ and want to fly. those call signs are/ start with ( Shaheen ) and then a number well this was how they did it in our days.
English is the official language but there are some SQD where the english is too difficult because everything is in code words like CCS. 
for example they guy said ok PANCAKE and I said well are you hungry he says negative I am not hungry that means return to base. So next time you are with your wife at a party you can easily go and say PANCAKE OR EXTEND if she says extend which means stay if she says pancake well you better get your butt home. When senior officer of SQD fly they can speak anything they want to the other pilot they are flying with. When I flew with Hakim SB spoke Pusto when flew with Naeem Atta spoke punjabi even during a dogfight in 71 war. and who ever flew with nosy had to keep a dictionary with him  his english was very good and he used words which were bigger than the saber its self.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Muradk

Question members do you know who Air Cdre Masroor died. The real story????


----------



## Patriot

Muradk said:


> Question members do you know who Air Cdre Masroor died. The real story????


No sir you spill the beans


----------



## Muradk

He died flying a bomber, A eagle hit his canopy broke the canopy and hit his face the navigator was screaming his guts out Eject Eject Eject but his head was just resting on his shoulders. Finally the Nav jumped out but Masroor Sb didn't. He was a great man and great officer if he would have lived he would have gone to the top as COAS. There are always some officer when you see them or fly with them you can say he will reach the top. In 1974 sitting in Flight Ops talking to Khawaja I said these 2 kids Rashid and shahid Latif will go to the top and they did and then there were officer who we used to say if he can just start the engine I will give him Rs 100/- which was a lot of money in 74 and yes they used to sit and then go blank not that they didn't know they didn't have the confidence and when an IP was sitting with them they flew beautifully.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## indiarocks

Energon said:


> Why weren't these aircrafts used in combat? Also didn't Saudi Arabia have a sizable fleet to offer as replacement/force multipliers at the time as well?



Brother both the countries tried to use less DWH{during war help} so as to keep the war two sided...as read in a book by some journo who covered the war....some rectben....search on google.....


----------



## farhan_9909

How much height is required for PAF?

i heard that it is 5feet and 6 inches bt nt confirm

can any body confirm it


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

*need assistance of senior member!*

can anyone tell me which kind of mirage3 was in no.9 Sqd in 1971 war,mirage-3ep or mirage-3 E/R reconnaissance version.


----------



## fatman17

not sure but the 1st batch of 18 a/c were IIIE/D type (single and 2-seat)

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tiger Awan

farhan_9909 said:


> How much height is required for PAF?
> 
> i heard that it is 5feet and 6 inches bt nt confirm
> 
> can any body confirm it




No dear. This is all drama. Believe me ( many will not i know)

If they like you they will select you even if you are 5 feet 5 inch 


I remember a story. A son of a judge with excellent health, verbal expressions and educational record and also with extreme love for army was rejected.

Why bcz he had never seen any defeat in his life and army thought that he will not be able to face it.

And the decision was correct. As soon as he realized that his passion for joining army will not be materialized he committed suicide 


So you do not know what is the criteria.


----------



## farhan_9909

Tiger Awan said:


> No dear. This is all drama. Believe me ( many will not i know)
> 
> If they like you they will select you even if you are 5 feet 5 inch
> 
> 
> I remember a story. A son of a judge with excellent health, verbal expressions and educational record and also with extreme love for army was rejected.
> 
> Why bcz he had never seen any defeat in his life and army thought that he will not be able to face it.
> 
> And the decision was correct. As soon as he realized that his passion for joining army will not be materialized he committed suicide
> 
> 
> So you do not know what is the criteria.



Thaxn for the reply

well i am very much intrested in Military..i want to be a chief of pak army in future..
i am Ist year(11th) pre medical student suttdent..good i knew tat for army the minimum required height is 5feet 4inch..bt i thought pilot are tall..


----------



## Tiger Awan

farhan_9909 said:


> Thaxn for the reply
> 
> well i am very much intrested in Military..i want to be a chief of pak army in future..
> i am Ist year(11th) pre medical student suttdent..good i knew tat for army the minimum required height is 5feet 4inch..bt i thought pilot are tall..



Just stay calm and be ready for funny and stupid questions

e.g. have you ever taken bath with your sister ( my cousin was asked this question). If you become angry you are go went gone. not you are in.

and things like how you enter. A friend of mine told that a when a candidate went for interview the door was half opened, so he returned the door to its initial condition after entering the room and was cleared with in minutes while another one who did not was sent home.


----------



## Wingman

farhan_9909 said:


> How much height is required for PAF?
> 
> i heard that it is 5feet and 6 inches bt nt confirm
> 
> can any body confirm it



Its 5 feet 4 inches(minimum requirement)


----------



## Wingman

Muradk said:


> He died flying a bomber, A eagle hit his canopy broke the canopy and hit his face the navigator was screaming his guts out Eject Eject Eject but his head was just resting on his shoulders. Finally the Nav jumped out but Masroor Sb didn't. He was a great man and great officer if he would have lived he would have gone to the top as COAS. There are always some officer when you see them or fly with them you can say he will reach the top. In 1974 sitting in Flight Ops talking to Khawaja I said these 2 kids Rashid and shahid Latif will go to the top and they did and then there were officer who we used to say if he can just start the engine I will give him Rs 100/- which was a lot of money in 74 and yes they used to sit and then go blank not that they didn't know they didn't have the confidence and when an IP was sitting with them they flew beautifully.



A/C Masroor Hussain was landing his jet at Mauripur Base (now Masroor Base, named after him)


----------



## Qasibr

I have two things I wanted to find out more about.

First's the likelihood of the Chinese inducting the JF-17/FC-1 in the context of their having cleared the aircraft in "design appraisal", and then their conducting successful taxi trials of the aircraft using the WS-13 engine recently. Why would the Chinese be conducting these tests and spending time on the aircraft if they weren't seriously thinking about it.

One can imagine that a major concern for the Chinese would be that the aircraft have a native engine if they were to induct it. So anyone have any info on the Chinese inducting it, and what the status of the WS-13 project is?

And secondly I wanted to ask about JF-17's twin seat variant. Last I heard Pakistan had decided to foot the bill to develop the variant, any updates on that?

Thanks!

Design Appraisal: FC-1 Xiaolong fighter passes design appraisal - People's Daily Online
Taxi Trials: China Defense Blog: FC-1 equipped with WS-13 completed first successful runway taxi test.


----------



## LeeRain

hey guys can any one tell me how these squadrons are made in air force..i mean on what basis they are made??


----------



## vishal

one squad consists of about 14 to 18 fighters nd 2 to 4 tandem sitter trainers
but the number varies


----------



## aj120

Does anyone know the meaning of these acronyms: CFT, BFT, PFT, ATTs etc? Any other commonly used acronyms and abbreviations anyone else heard of that I should know of?


----------



## Mani2020

aj120 said:


> Does anyone know the meaning of these acronyms: CFT, BFT, PFT, ATTs etc? Any other commonly used acronyms and abbreviations anyone else heard of that I should know of?



There can be different abbreviations of these words i dont know for which you are talking about but being precise what i know i'll share it with you 

*CFT* stands for Conformal Fuel Tanks.

Conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) are additional fuel tanks fitted closely to the profile of an aircraft which extend either the range or "time on station" of the aircraft, with little aerodynamic penalty compared to the same fuel capacity carried in external drop tanks.

here is a Pic of F-15 CFT 






*BFT*
In military context BFT can be abbrevation of different things,But the common one is

*Blue Force Tracking* : which is a United States military term used to denote a GPS-enabled system that provides military commanders and forces with location information about friendly (and despite its name, also about hostile) military forces.

*PFT*
PFT term is usually used in military for "Physical Fitness Test"

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

danger-zone said:


> *need assistance of senior member!*
> 
> can anyone tell me which kind of mirage3 was in no.9 Sqd in 1971 war,mirage-3ep or mirage-3 E/R reconnaissance version.





fatman17 said:


> not sure but the 1st batch of 18 a/c were IIIE/D type (single and 2-seat)



ok this question is related too my previous one.
can some senior member tell me which version of mirage was flown by Sir.Murad Khan in 1971 war.?
acurate answer plz


----------



## hassan1

which PAF aircraft is this?




Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## guru8904

hassan1 said:


> which PAF aircraft is this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us



This is a Quickie II. It was a kit plane acquired and assembled by the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex somewhere in the late 80s. It flew only a few times since it had some serious engine/airframe issues and was later given to the museum.


----------



## guru8904

Mani2020 said:


> There can be different abbreviations of these words i dont know for which you are talking about but being precise what i know i'll share it with you
> 
> *CFT* stands for Conformal Fuel Tanks.
> 
> Conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) are additional fuel tanks fitted closely to the profile of an aircraft which extend either the range or "time on station" of the aircraft, with little aerodynamic penalty compared to the same fuel capacity carried in external drop tanks.
> 
> here is a Pic of F-15 CFT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BFT*
> In military context BFT can be abbrevation of different things,But the common one is
> 
> *Blue Force Tracking* : which is a United States military term used to denote a GPS-enabled system that provides military commanders and forces with location information about friendly (and despite its name, also about hostile) military forces.
> 
> *PFT*
> PFT term is usually used in military for "Physical Fitness Test"



Your explanations could be right in a general sense but specific to PAF, these acronyms stand for:

CFT College of Flying Training
BFT Basic Flying Training (Wing)
PFT Primary Flying Training (Wing)
ATT Aircraft Technical Training

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

danger-zone said:


> ok this question is related too my previous one.
> can some senior member tell me which version of mirage was flown by Sir.Murad Khan in 1971 war.?
> acurate answer plz



can anyone answer


----------



## aliyusuf

danger-zone said:


> can anyone answer



Mirage-IIIEP?

I could be wrong ... I was just a 4 year old back then .


----------



## Qasibr

I have two things I wanted to find out more about.

First's *the likelihood of the Chinese inducting the JF-17/FC-1 *in the context of their having cleared the aircraft in "design appraisal", and then their conducting successful taxi trials of the aircraft using the WS-13 engine recently. Why would the Chinese be conducting these tests and spending time on the aircraft if they weren't seriously thinking about it.

One can imagine that a major concern for the Chinese would be that the aircraft have a native engine if they were to induct it. So anyone have any info on the Chinese inducting it, and what the *status of the WS-13 project* is?

And secondly I wanted to ask about *JF-17's twin seat variant*. Last I heard Pakistan had decided to foot the bill to develop the variant, any updates on that?

Thanks!

Design Appraisal: FC-1 Xiaolong fighter passes design appraisal - People's Daily Online
Taxi Trials: China Defense Blog: FC-1 equipped with WS-13 completed first successful runway taxi test.


----------



## Dazzler

Simplest explanation is that they are replacing their ground strike capable Q-5s with jf-17s.

Two seat variant is deemed necessary for PAF and we will pay the development expenditures but it will take some time to develop as we have too many projects going on in house.


----------



## Qasibr

nabil_05 said:


> Simplest explanation is that they are replacing their ground strike capable Q-5s with jf-17s.
> 
> Two seat variant is deemed necessary for PAF and we will pay the development expenditures but it will take some time to develop as we have too many projects going on in house.



@nabil, that's the thing - Pakistan said they were going to *fund* the development, my understanding was that it would still be the Chinese who'd develop it. I don't think we have the ability to manufacture new aircraft designs, my guess is that funding is the biggest hurdle here. I just don't see how that problem's going to subside in the short run.

Let's really hope the Chinese go for the JF-17, that'd mean that they'd have a vested interest in continously upgrading the aircraft.


----------



## Zarbe Momin

we are doing MLU of our F-16 A&B models and we are going to groud our F-7P fighters in few years. My question is that would it be economical to redesign & reconstruct some parts in our existing F-7P's as it can be seen in Guizhou JL-9, although it is newly built on design of F-7 and not existing F-7 reconstructed.(Guizhou JL-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) i.e bigger nose which can bring betterment in Radar, air inlets on side can also be DSI, change in tail and redesing it like JF-17, data link with air born radar, and WS-13 engin, on tip of wing extra hard points, wings like F-7PG, air to air refueling and CFT. (Its a bit imaginative work), now we have our own trained man power because of JF-17 project and reconstruction can be done in Pakistan in Kamra


----------



## Tempest II

Zarbe Momin said:


> we are doing MLU of our F-16 A&B models and we are going to groud our F-7P fighters in few years. My question is that would it be economical to redesign & reconstruct some parts in our existing F-7P's as it can be seen in Guizhou JL-9, although it is newly built on design of F-7 and not existing F-7 reconstructed.(Guizhou JL-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) i.e bigger nose which can bring betterment in Radar, air inlets on side can also be DSI, change in tail and redesing it like JF-17, data link with air born radar, and WS-13 engin, on tip of wing extra hard points, wings like F-7PG, air to air refueling and CFT. (Its a bit imaginative work), now we have our own trained man power because of JF-17 project and reconstruction can be done in Pakistan in Kamra



Ever wondered why they crash the old cars (e.g. 15 year old BMW 5-series) instead of saving the environment and money buy reusing most of the components and produce a 2010 BMW 5-Series?

My take is by the time you dismentle, inspect, clean and repair EVERY panel, bolt, rivert, shaft, etc it will cost you more than a new machine. There will be some aspects of the old model/design you just cannot change - you therefore are unlikely to get as good a machine as starting anew.

Just my opinion.


----------



## nightcrawler

Questioned it before but never got the answer so here its is again

it is mentioned that the presence of LERX above air intakes in T-50 is great improvement when compared with F-22. I would like to know how this gonna effect the performance of T-50.
Given that 


> The F-22 Raptor has chines that lead to the leading edge extensions that are blended into the engine air intakes
> Wikipedia


How do LERX in T-50 compares with chines in F-22??


----------



## SQ8

The LERX in T-50 arent just LERX, they lead to LERX like canards which are movable surfaces. The F-22 has Chines similar to the concept used in the SR-71, they are still fixed surfaces.
The T-50's surfaces assist in maneuverability and may afford it a better performance in flight as compared to the F-22.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nightcrawler

santro said:


> The LERX in T-50 arent just LERX, they lead to LERX like canards which are movable surfaces. The F-22 has Chines similar to the concept used in the SR-71, they are still fixed surfaces.
> The T-50's surfaces assist in maneuverability and may afford it a better performance in flight as compared to the F-22.



I am an engineering student so plz dont get annoyed by mine toooo technical queries!!
I have read


> The chines contribute useful additional lift at supersonic speeds, as well as acting as LERX at low speeds.


 WikiPedia

Question is simple. Provided that chines can act as LERX too; can LERX do the same & do plz provide any magnified image of a plane incorporating LERX or Chines I have seen various pics but can tell where these respetive parts are


----------



## SQ8

First fighter with LERX




See the area that joins with the main wings.. from the joint at '46' to where the angle of the plane changes.. and the wings start.
Thats the LERX.
Here are some more LERX from other fighters.




Here are the LERX on the F-22 and T-50..




In this case right above the intake's.. 

Chines, are flattened winglike extensions that lead from the root of the wing blending into the forward fuselage.




If you look at the sides of the nose of the SR-1 you see that they seem like they have been flattened and then get thinner till at the sides.. this goes on to meet the wing roots. This flat surface that runs across the front of the fuselage is referred to as Chines.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

Hey!

This is the Airforce question thread, so instead of opening a new one i would rather ask a simple question here.


Pakistan recently ordered and started receiving 500 BVR AAMs from USA which were AIM 120-c5 class.
We also ordered 200 SRAAMs which were AIM9 class.

Can someone tell us why did we order so less SRAAMs? Like do we have plenty of them already or are we using some other SRAAMs in large numbers? Because certainly the entire PAF fleet is capable of using AIM9 so why order so less?

Thanks!


----------



## fatman17

penumbra said:


> Hey!
> 
> This is the Airforce question thread, so instead of opening a new one i would rather ask a simple question here.
> 
> 
> Pakistan recently ordered and started receiving 500 BVR AAMs from USA which were AIM 120-c5 class.
> We also ordered 200 SRAAMs which were AIM9 class.
> 
> Can someone tell us why did we order so less SRAAMs? Like do we have plenty of them already or are we using some other SRAAMs in large numbers? Because certainly the entire PAF fleet is capable of using AIM9 so why order so less?
> 
> Thanks!



the order which Pakistan placed was the largest ever for 500 units of the aim-120c5.

PAF has a large inventory of aim-9 series and also possesses adequate numbers of the pl-9 and the magicmatra aam's.

more aim-120c5 or the newer c7 or the d version will be purchased as all the vipers get upgraded.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

danger-zone said:


> can anyone answer



only 2 versions were available in 71.

III-EP
III-RP


----------



## rockstarIN

I have one doubt,

Wts the diff between AESA & PESA radars..

If AESA is good than PESA?, SU-30 MKI is using PESA radar and has range 350Miles, whats the range of modern AESA radars?

Just confused..11


----------



## Donatello

rockstar said:


> I have one doubt,
> 
> Wts the diff between AESA & PESA radars..
> 
> If AESA is good than PESA?, SU-30 MKI is using PESA radar and has range 350Miles, whats the range of modern AESA radars?
> 
> Just confused..11




Its range is not 350 miles, but 300 km. Varies on the RCS of target.


----------



## nightcrawler

> At an early stage of the fighter's development
> it became obvious that the MFI was a
> lot different from the American fifth-generation
> fighters. For instance, the Mikoyan fighter
> had a *variable ventral air* intake from the
> start, whereas the F-22 had *non-adjustable
> two-shock lateral intakes* optimised for supersonic
> cruise and the rival Northrop/General
> Dynamics YF-23 had *non-adjustable dorsal
> intakes*. Soviet aerodynamicists believed a
> ventrally located intake offered certain
> advantages during vigorous manoeuvres,
> minimising the danger of an intake stall during
> high-G turns and high-alpha flight. Also,
> the tail-first layout maximised lift and the
> canards performed a pitch damping function
> at critical AoAs. By comparison, the F-22 and
> YF-23 utilised a more conventional layout
> with trapezoidal wings and stabilators.



Source:
Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter
Technology Demonstrators
Yefim Gordon
Original translation by Dmitriy Komissarov

Question is simple; is Soviet thinking while choosing from 3 given air intakes is correct & why US think otherwise??


----------



## Tajdar adil

I realy dont know about this.


----------



## HASANITALIA

Mock Dogfight wat is that some body explain ^^


----------



## Patriot

Mock Dogfight = Simulated Dog Fight.


----------



## HASANITALIA

Patriot said:


> Mock Dogfight = Simulated Dog Fight.



in simulater ground 

o real ? in air 

i heard turkey and greek do mock fight in dispiuted tertory


----------



## F86 Saber

My question is, i have read for numerous fighter plane crashes, the reason has been given as "Pilot Disorientation". What exactly does this term mean, what causes this disorientation and as i have ready more than often the pilot is unable to eject in this situation, why is that?


----------



## siegecrossbow

F86 Saber said:


> My question is, i have read for numerous fighter plane crashes, the reason has been given as "Pilot Disorientation". What exactly does this term mean, what causes this disorientation and as i have ready more than often the pilot is unable to eject in this situation, why is that?



Hmm I think disorientation means that the pilot has lost sense of directions as in up, down, left/right, etc. This could happen very easily in fighterjets when they are performing tight manuevers since they are experiencing high G and their brains don't get the same amount of oxygen. They can't think clearly under such circumstances and sometimes they make the wrong decisions, which could result in pilot death.


----------



## guru8904

siegecrossbow said:


> Hmm I think disorientation means that the pilot has lost sense of directions as in up, down, left/right, etc. This could happen very easily in fighterjets when they are performing tight manuevers since they are experiencing high G and their brains don't get the same amount of oxygen. They can't think clearly under such circumstances and sometimes they make the wrong decisions, which could result in pilot death.



Yes, disorientation means loss of orientation in space. A disoriented pilot is unable to make out whether he is turning left or right or flying straight and level or inverted. It has nothing to do with the lack of oxygen or high G manoeuvring. It is caused by the lack of visual cues and normally occurs when a pilot is flying in very bad visibility or at night. 
If someone needs more information, just google "Spatial Disorientation"and you'll find tons of pages.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## siegecrossbow

guru8904 said:


> Yes, disorientation means loss of orientation in space. A disoriented pilot is unable to make out whether he is turning left or right or flying straight and level or inverted. It has nothing to do with the lack of oxygen or high G manoeuvring. It is caused by the lack of visual cues and normally occurs when a pilot is flying in very bad visibility or at night.
> If someone needs more information, just google "Spatial Disorientation"and you'll find tons of pages.



Kinda like how a pilot flying over a large body of water sometimes couldn't tell which is the sky and end up flying "up" into the ocean?


----------



## Donatello

HASANITALIA said:


> in simulater ground
> 
> o real ? in air
> 
> i heard turkey and greek do mock fight in dispiuted tertory




Mock dog fight is in the air. You can't train pilots on computer as AI cannot match the human factor in real life.

It is mock because even though missiles are used, they are dummy missiles and not loaded with warhead.


With regards to Turkey and Greece......they actually shot each other down...so it kinda is a real dogfight.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

can some one, any senior member *PLEASE* tell me which version of mirage was flown by Sir.Murad Khan in 1971 war.? 
PLZ PLZ PLZ


----------



## x_man

danger-zone said:


> can some one, any senior member *PLEASE* tell me which version of mirage was flown by Sir.Murad Khan in 1971 war.?
> PLZ PLZ PLZ



The answer lies in question that which all versions PAF had during 71 war?

PAF had *Mirage IIIEP* delivered in early March 1968 and a total of 3 Mirage III *DP*, 18 Mirage IIIEP, 3 Mirage III *RP* delivered in 1968-1971. 

*DP *stands for Dual Purpose i.e. the two seat training version. *RP *is for Reconnaissance Purpose : the ones with cameras. RP is same as IIIEP except it had the camera in nose. So basically we only had Mirage III EP.

Hope it helps.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

x_man said:


> The answer lies in question that which all versions PAF had during 71 war?
> 
> PAF had *Mirage IIIEP* delivered in early March 1968 and a total of 3 Mirage III *DP*, 18 Mirage IIIEP, 3 Mirage III *RP* delivered in 1968-1971.
> 
> *DP *stands for Dual Purpose i.e. the two seat training version. *RP *is for Reconnaissance Purpose : the ones with cameras. RP is same as IIIEP except it had the camera in nose. So basically we only had Mirage III EP.
> 
> Hope it helps.



thank u very much sir, but ur answer made it more complicated and difficult for me.See actually i ve an incomplete story of a mission done by MK in 1971, that he gave me to make a sketch of it...i couldn't keep in touch with him later, not even through PDF.i need a few details to cover up and to start my work on that event's drawing.So can u help me with that. i am very curious to draw an un drawn mission sortie. 
here's my art work..........PLZ HELP 
PAF Falcons - Picture Gallery


----------



## x_man

danger-zone said:


> thank u very much sir, but ur answer made it more complicated and difficult for me.See actually i ve an incomplete story of a mission done by MK in 1971, that he gave me to make a sketch of it...i couldn't keep in touch with him later, not even through PDF.i need a few details to cover up and to start my work on that event's drawing.So can u help me with that. i am very curious to draw an un drawn mission sortie.
> here's my art work..........PLZ HELP
> PAF Falcons - Picture Gallery



Yaar I dont know which mission you want to sketch, for that you have to contact sir MK as only he knows about it. I am not in contact with him either. All I can tell you is that it is *Mirage III EP*. 

Just saw your work. Its great. Keep it up.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## HASANITALIA

i hav question about air intake wat is that and wat they do in air craft ?

advantage and disvantage ?


----------



## Patriot

danger-zone said:


> can some one, any senior member *PLEASE* tell me which version of mirage was flown by Sir.Murad Khan in 1971 war.?
> PLZ PLZ PLZ


The Mirage is in picture is flown by Sir Muradk

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## General General

> i hav question about air intake wat is that and wat they do in air craft ?
> 
> advantage and disvantage ?



The air intake is like the nose. It provides air to help in the combustion in engines. The shape of an intake has to be very carefully designed so as to make sure the engine gets an ideal amount of air an a given speed. If air is too less, the engine will not have enough Oxygen for combustion, and will "flame-out" or die. If too much air is being received, the compressed air infornt of the intake will form a barrier. In the diagram "1" is labled as the intake.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Patriot said:


> The Mirage is in picture is flown by Sir Muradk



Super duper man, Thanx Alot


----------



## HASANITALIA

General General said:


> The air intake is like the nose. It provides air to help in the combustion in engines. The shape of an intake has to be very carefully designed so as to make sure the engine gets an ideal amount of air an a given speed. If air is too less, the engine will not have enough Oxygen for combustion, and will "flame-out" or die. If too much air is being received, the compressed air infornt of the intake will form a barrier. In the diagram "1" is labled as the intake.




but some body say jf17 is 2 fighter to use inytake? 

not all air craft use intake ?


----------



## mjnaushad

HASANITALIA said:


> but some body say jf17 is 2 fighter to use inytake?
> 
> not all air craft use intake ?


Some claimed that JF 17 is 2nd Aircraft to use *DSI Intake*.....And i think its true..


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

JFT is the first jet with DSI in active service if im correct.


----------



## HASANITALIA

wat is diffrenza between normal intake and DSI INTAKE


----------



## General General

> wat is diffrenza between normal intake and DSI INTAKE


I'm not an aerodynamic engineer, so I could be wrong here. DSI is a non-mechanical part of an intake that diverts the turbulent, boundry layer of air away from the engine. The DSI comes into effect only at speeds greater than mach 1 (761 miles/hour). Indtead of a DSI, most jets use complex mechanical moving parts that spring into action when the aircraft reaches mach 1 speed. The DSI has been used (as far as I know) on J-10B/FC-20, JF-17 and F-35.

*JF-17 without DSI intake:*









*JF-17 with DSI intake:*









*J-10 without DSI intake:*





*J-10 with DSI intake:*





*F-35 with DSI intake:*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hassan1

WHICH AIRCRAFT IS THIS?
THIS MAGE ALSO IN PAF MUSEUM,THESE ARE RAF AIRCRAFT .IS THERE ANY IMPORTANCE OF TIS PAINTING


----------



## Zulfiqar

This painting was in one of the previous PAF calenders(i think it was published either in 2006 or 2005). IIRC its about a PAF pilot training in RAF academy or something like that.I don't remember exactly as i don't have the calender any more.


----------



## rockstarIN

One Question

What does it mean - TOT?

Full technology transfer?

Su-30s are producing in India by HAL thru TOT

Means it is just an assembly line, all parts being exported from Russia and being assembled here.

OR

Only engine is getting from Russia and producing other pats of the plane in India?

What does this mean?

What is the &#37; of indigenious items whcih was made in Pakistan(JFT), India(Su-30) & F-16(Turkey)?

If full technology transfer means full items being made in the respective country, the above countries can make planes whatever nos they can without the help of source nation, namely Russia, china & USA?


----------



## IndianArmy

rockstar said:


> One Question
> 
> What does it mean - TOT?



Transfer of Technology



rockstar said:


> Full technology transfer?



There is No Full TOT given, Core technologies would not be shared.



rockstar said:


> Su-30s are producing in India by HAL thru TOT



Su-30 MKI was a Joint Venture, Not an Export variant of Su 30....



rockstar said:


> Means it is just an assembly line, all parts being exported from Russia and being assembled here.



Engines and Airframes are produced here, There are Indian Avionics Present Along with the Israeli ones....



rockstar said:


> OR
> 
> Only engine is getting from Russia and producing other pats of the plane in India?



Engine is Produced By HAL under TOT 




rockstar said:


> What is the % of indigenious items whcih was made in Pakistan(JFT), India(Su-30) & F-16(Turkey)?



According to HAL chairman, HAL is Looking forward to Make su 30 100% in India by the end of 2011.....



rockstar said:


> If full technology transfer means full items being made in the respective country, the above countries can make planes whatever nos they can without the help of source nation, namely Russia, china & USA?



TOT is Given Under License, You break it, Then Forget further assistance and Spares what so ever

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## IndianArmy

hassan1 said:


> WHICH AIRCRAFT IS THIS?
> THIS MAGE ALSO IN PAF MUSEUM,THESE ARE RAF AIRCRAFT .IS THERE ANY IMPORTANCE OF TIS PAINTING



these are TB 30 Epsilon , If Iam Not wrong..... Could anyone confirm??


----------



## rockstarIN

IndianArmy said:


> Transfer of Technology
> 
> 
> 
> There is No Full TOT given, Core technologies would not be shared.
> 
> 
> 
> Su-30 MKI was a Joint Venture, Not an Export variant of Su 30....
> 
> 
> 
> Engines and Airframes are produced here, There are Indian Avionics Present Along with the Israeli ones....
> 
> 
> 
> Engine is Produced By HAL under TOT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to HAL chairman, HAL is Looking forward to Make su 30 100% in India by the end of 2011.....
> 
> 
> 
> TOT is Given Under License, You break it, Then Forget further assistance and Spares what so ever



- If MKI engines are produced here, cant we use the same technology to make engine for LCA?

-Y worry about Spares? if we can produce here in case of 100% ToT.

-if 100% MKI Indian, what will Russia gets from the sales?


----------



## mjnaushad

rockstar said:


> - If MKI engines are produced here, cant we use the same technology to make engine for LCA?
> 
> -Y worry about Spares? if we can produce here in case of 100% ToT.
> 
> -if 100% MKI Indian, what will Russia gets from the sales?


I dont think AL31 will fit in LCA


----------



## fatman17

IndianArmy said:


> these are TB 30 Epsilon , If Iam Not wrong..... Could anyone confirm??



trainers flying over RAF Cranwell in the UK


----------



## IndianArmy

rockstar said:


> - If MKI engines are produced here, cant we use the same technology to make engine for LCA?



No at all, One needs to create Technology In order to Make One, The Real Technology is Still In the hands of Russia 



rockstar said:


> -Y worry about Spares? if we can produce here in case of 100% ToT.



Because , Su 30 Is not the Only Russian aircraft we have and Not the Only one we would Have, and More Over, and By 100% , It does not Mean everything is Indigenous, We would start manufacturing Raw materials Here, But the Technology is still not given to us....



rockstar said:


> -if 100% MKI Indian, what will Russia gets from the sales?



Well, India does not have marketing Rights, and Still We pay some amount of Royalties to them for the Aircrafts we make On there Behalf....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

*need details about this mission and the Indian Aircraft shoot down in the painting, its picture is also required.

regards *

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shr_bwp

IAF Recon Alize shot down in 1971:

Breguet Alizé - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hassan1

IndianArmy said:


> these are TB 30 Epsilon , If Iam Not wrong..... Could anyone confirm??





i found the name of aircraft from key publisher web
name of A/C: Percival Prentice
Location:RAF College Cranwell
The aircraft are coded for 19 SFTS/FTS of the RAF College as well.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nightcrawler

@ DT Su 35S Flanker March 2010 - Fullscreen





> The gimbaled antenna permits
> the Su-35S to change heading past 90 degrees
> after missile launch and spoil opposing BVR missile
> shots.



Cannot understand this ??


----------



## TaimiKhan

nightcrawler said:


> @ DT Su 35S Flanker March 2010 - Fullscreen
> 
> Cannot understand this ??



Well, the AESA radar of Su-35 is not fixed, it rotates, its fixed on a gimballed swash-plate that covers about 240 degrees around the nose, while other AESA radars are mostly fixed, non movable or non-rotatable. Thus it gives the ability to the Su-35 to fire its missile and take a larger turn away from any incoming missiles or incoming fighter aircraft, while most probably with the adversary having fixed AESA radar would not be able to take such a big turn away from the Su-35, which if it does, may not be able to guide its missile. For any radar to keep a track and lock on the enemy aircraft, the aircraft nose is to be in some direction, radar antenna rotation limitation is there, from where it can deviate less as then it will loose the track of the enemy aircraft. 

Below articles may give you a good idea:

See how much the AESA radar antenna of Su-35 can rotate, thus giving it lot of coverage compared to any fixed AESA. 

Wide Angle View

Read the Antenna Coverage section to understand fully and see the last image also giving the radar coverages of Su-35 and F-35s. 

How? The Deadly Question for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nightcrawler

^^Extreme Thnx


----------



## nightcrawler

Two parts that really intrigue me are 

Engine Inlets
Plasma Ports



Regarding the 1st one; is there any difference b/w air intakes & Engine Inlets that are labeled in fig. (because yellow arrows dont mention the big air intakes)





Regarding 2nd; we had a talk about these magical things stealth tech before & many senior members refrain talking about it CLEARLY. I was of the view which was referenced in a book (I will reproduce the source if req.) that it was something Chemical in nature; while Gambit if I am correct related it with Radar science. Having this fig. I suppose people here can make me understand in a better/CLEAR way


----------



## Shahzad834

mjnaushad said:


> I dont think AL31 will fit in LCA



please define LCA


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Shahzad834 said:


> please define LCA



Light Combat Aircraft.
HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## hassan1

I HAVE SOME GOOD BOOKS ON PAF

THE BOOKS NAME 
(RIGHT TO LEFT)
1 Defenders of Pakistan
2 PAF OVER THE YEAR'S 2007
3 AIR WARRIOR 3RD EDITION
4 PAF OVER THE YEAR'S 2003
5 FIZAI SARFRRSH
6 Battle for Pakistan The Air War of 1965 
7 The Story of the Pakistan Air Force a saga of courage and honour
8 The story of the Pakistan Air Force, a battle against odds
9 Fiza'ya - Psyche of the Pakistan Air Force
10 'Pak Fiza'ya Ki Tareekh 1947-1984'
11 History of The Pakistan Air Force 1947-1982'
12 CUTTING EDGE PAF
13 UNTOLD TALES OF PAKISTAN AIR FORCE
14 AN AIRMAN REMEMBERS
15 PAF Bomber Operations in the 1965 and 1971 Wars 
16 MY YEARS IN BLUE UNIFORM
17 A LUCKY PILOT
18 MOSAIC OF MEMORY
19 Great Air Battles of Pakistan Air Force
20 PAF SELECTION NOTES
21 FIGHT OF FALCONS
22 FIZZAYAN
23 AIR WARFARE IN MISSILE AGE
24 PAK FIZAYA KI DASTAAN E SHUJAAT
25 PAK FAZAIA TAREEKH KAY AAINAY MAI
26 CIVIL DEFENCE BY PAF

AND SOME MIX BOOKS (PAK NAVY & PAK ARMY)

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## @rrows

During the current flood some missiles had been damaged at jacobabad base. But all the essential equipment were evacuated safely and water never entered at the base. if it is true how much was the damaged.


----------



## rolandzhangt

&#21457;&#36825;&#20010;&#24086;&#23376;&#26159;&#20026;&#20102;&#25226;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;4&#20195;&#26426;&#30340;&#22270;&#29255;&#21457;&#19978;&#26469;
Pls webmaster forgive me!


----------



## nightcrawler

Good thinking; having silica cells around books


----------



## fatman17

@rrows said:


> During the current flood some missiles had been damaged at jacobabad base. But all the essential equipment were evacuated safely and water never entered at the base. if it is true how much was the damaged.



no damage to equipment - all were moved to samugli (quetta)


----------



## fatman17

*PAF Finishing School holds graduation ceremony*

ISLAMABAD: The graduation ceremony of PAF Finishing School was held at the Air Headquarters Officers&#8217; Mess on Friday. Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi was the chief guest on the occasion. 

Qureshi awarded certificates to the graduating students. While addressing the audience, he said, &#8220;I am confident that an institution like yours can provide valuable guidance to our girls, as they move from one environment to another, marked with independence and responsibility. From this perspective, I consider the contribution of the Finishing School very significant and far-reaching.&#8221; PAF Finishing School is the first of its kind in the country. It offers various courses in communication skills, languages, management, art of self-presentation, domestic science, general culture, cuisine, protocol, art, childcare, psychology and spiritual enrichment. *staff report*


----------



## Xeric

@ post #1162:
The guy's an idiot! And the one who posted it is a bigger idiot.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

take it down


----------



## nightcrawler

*ELINT planes have lots of electronics for listening for radar frequencies but do they have their own air to air intercept radar??*


----------



## TaimiKhan

nightcrawler said:


> *ELINT planes have lots of electronics for listening for radar frequencies but do they have their own air to air intercept radar??*



Fighter jet in ELINT role may have their own, but not other jets, taking the example of PAF Sqd 24 Falcons.


----------



## nightcrawler

TaimiKhan said:


> *Fighter jet in ELINT role* may have their own, but not other jets, taking the example of PAF Sqd 24 Falcons.



Sir are you referring to for instance F-18 purely converted for ELINT purpose...even then I failed to search that it has got A2A interceptor radar


----------



## TaimiKhan

nightcrawler said:


> Sir are you referring to for instance F-18 purely converted for ELINT purpose...even then I failed to search that it has got A2A interceptor radar



Here below is the official brochette from Boeing, you can clearly see that the EA-18G has AESA APG-79. 

"The EA-18G advanced cockpit is combined with its onboard sensors and weapons, enable superior Suppression of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD) capability. The active electronically scanned array APG-79 AESA radar offers increased electronic warfare support and is capable of precision targeting utilizing cues from the ALQ-218 precision receiver system. Integrating these systems with advanced weapons yields a more formidable SEAD capability than previously possible."

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/ea18g/docs/EA-18G_overview.pdf

If you check out wiki, you can see the armaments has AIM-120 in it and it can carry 2 of them if required even in its SEAD/DEAD role. Thus its fully capable to defend itself and it has all the times its APG-79 AESA radar with it, which it can use for A2A combat. 


Boeing EA-18G Growler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AN/APG-79 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2003/q4/nr_031229m.html

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## farhan_9909

I want a reply from a senior member

Can a female pilot take a high g turn during their piriods?

question for +18..


----------



## ynmian

farhan_9909 said:


> I want a reply from a senior member
> 
> Can a female pilot take a high g turn during their piriods?
> 
> question for +18..



You should ask that to a doctor instead.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

farhan_9909 said:


> I want a reply from a senior member
> 
> Can a female pilot take a high g turn during their piriods?
> 
> question for +18..





i ve herd, in western air forces, they go on long leave.


----------



## SQ8

ynmian said:


> You should ask that to a doctor instead.



Or more properly..
google it..
since it is a subject specific to women..and not aircraft.
however..I would think it depends. Since every female has a different reaction and it would be up to the flight surgeon to decide if the woman is fit to fly or not.

End of discussion on this one please.


----------



## alimobin memon

how many combat aircrafts currently paf has?


----------



## Imran Khan

alimobin memon said:


> how many combat aircrafts currently paf has?



inventory on wiki is not bad for new members


List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## ynmian

Imran Khan said:


> inventory on wiki is not bad for new members
> 
> 
> List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I saw that list, seems all of our boys will have new toys to play with till 2014-15. may be with written names on each plane like usaf (someday).


----------



## Imran Khan

ynmian said:


> I saw that list, seems all of our boys will have new toys to play with till 2014-15. may be with written names on each plane like usaf (someday).



only f-16 of PAF has such details on f16.net sir you can see details and name of every bird there


----------



## ynmian

Imran Khan said:


> only f-16 of PAF has such details on f16.net sir you can see details and name of every bird there



may be u misunderstood.....I meant name of pilot written on plane.


----------



## Imran Khan

ynmian said:


> may be u misunderstood.....I meant name of pilot written on plane.



there is pilot names on k-8 sher dils until now i see


----------



## ynmian

Imran Khan said:


> there is pilot names on k-8 sher dils until now i see



yeah u r right, may be because those pilots are special acrobat guys and PAF want to designate each plane with a specific pilot.


----------



## fatman17

name of pilot and chief maintainer are stencilled on all a/c - it is normal.


----------



## alimobin memon

Imran Khan said:


> inventory on wiki is not bad for new members
> 
> 
> List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



i have read it but globalsecurity gives different info than wiki
wiki says approx 490 and globalsecurity says 320


----------



## ynmian

fatman17 said:


> name of pilot and chief maintainer are stencilled on all a/c - it is normal.



not in paf.


----------



## Jango

although the names are written on the aircraft....but that aircraft is not specific to the pilot.....for example A/C 1 has pilot X on it while 2 has Y.one day they fly in the same order.but the next day pilot X may fly adn often does fly A/C 2 adn Y flies A/C 2. The names are just written for all the pilots of the squardron.


----------



## Jango

A question. How does the a F-22 raptor pilot see another friendly F-22 on its radar?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> A question. How does the a F-22 raptor pilot see another friendly F-22 on its radar?


 
Using a datalink....


----------



## For Ever Pakistan

Slam all, remember the U.S navys "Top Gun" school  , should ent pakistan have one like this 2 train its F-16 crew 4 ACM and have the F-14 to replicate the Migs.ps any news on how pakistan did in "Red Flag" and "Green Flag" 2010


----------



## Whiplash

Pakistan already has such a school. It's called the CCS. 
As for your second statement. Whats the point training against replicated Migs? Indias gonna retire most of them in 3-4 years. If needed you could purchase one squadron of used J-11s to replicate MKIs for aggressor training.


----------



## AHMED85

alimobin memon said:


> how many combat aircrafts currently paf has?


 
combat depend on the pilot and air craft as 50-50...


----------



## thyhio

combat depend on the pilot and air craft as 50-50...that righs


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

my question isn't related to Air force but 
Plz can some one provide the link of a website that exactly mentions the total Ballistic missile of Pakistan currently in service and their updated exact ranges..

Regards & advance thanx


----------



## nightcrawler

danger-zone said:


> my question isn't related to Air force but
> Plz can some one provide the link of a website that exactly mentions the total Ballistic missile of Pakistan currently in service and their updated exact ranges..
> 
> Regards & advance thanx


Noops; thats a secret


----------



## Jango

i recently saw a picture somewhere of a PAF JF17 and the nose of the aircraft was covered.....why is that so??...i understand the intakes ,exhaust and cockpit covered but why the nose?


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

probably here, http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/74163-jf-17-zuhai-air-show-2010-a-58.html 

and your answer is already there then y to re ask same question ???


----------



## NASR KHAN

i have applied for the post of FLYING OFFICER in PAF n preparing for final interview, can anyone plz guide me about it...


----------



## Nimrah Anwar Khan

Hey I'm Nimrah, & I'm doing B.Sc. with Double Maths & Physics, expected to get completed in 2012....I want to join Pakistan Air Force; but I saw on the PAF website that there are no opportunities for girls except GD(P) & Aeronautical Engineering. Are there any other jobs offered? And in which fields can I apply after completing my B.Sc.? Please someone do help me; I'm way more than tensed, plus I've got no proper guidance!
Regards,
Nimrah Anwar Khan.


----------



## DV RULES

danger-zone said:


> my question isn't related to Air force but
> Plz can some one provide the link of a website that exactly mentions the total Ballistic missile of Pakistan currently in service and their updated exact ranges..
> 
> Regards & advance thanx



Pakistan missiles 
MissileThreat :: Ballistic Missiles of the World


Pakistan cruise missiles

MissileThreat :: Cruise Missiles of the World

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

^ oay thanx buddy.....


----------



## Maverick007

Nimrah Anwar Khan said:


> Hey I'm Nimrah, & I'm doing B.Sc. with Double Maths & Physics, expected to get completed in 2012....I want to join Pakistan Air Force; but I saw on the PAF website that there are no opportunities for girls except GD(P) & Aeronautical Engineering. Are there any other jobs offered? And in which fields can I apply after completing my B.Sc.? Please someone do help me; I'm way more than tensed, plus I've got no proper guidance!
> Regards,
> Nimrah Anwar Khan.


 
Nimrah, in the mid90s you could have applied in Psyhology or Air Traffic Control duties so check whether you can still do that with the PAF.


----------



## masijames

i have question, recently F-15 E is crashed in Lbyia and i saw the picture that AM-120C was armed on it and two AIM-9X 

can foreign air forces create countermeasure for these two air to air missile ? by taking these missile to there home countries since anyone had access to destryed aircraft parts 

countries like russia and china ?


----------



## TOPGUN

DV RULES said:


> Pakistan missiles
> MissileThreat :: Ballistic Missiles of the World
> 
> 
> Pakistan cruise missiles
> 
> MissileThreat :: Cruise Missiles of the World


 
Thx for sharing... but they failed to add RA'AD cruise missle in the cruise missle section ..


----------



## Jango

some body please answer post 1191!!!...thanks if u do!


----------



## Tempest II

I would think sensitive equipment/electronics and heat do not agree!! Where I grew up car interior plastic parts (used to) melt from the midday sun. That is why your computer has a fan.


----------



## nightcrawler

Tempest II said:


> I would think sensitive equipment/electronics and heat do not agree!! Where I grew up car interior plastic parts (used to) melt from the midday sun. That is why your computer has a fan.


 
my computer don't; it has a water radiator


----------



## Jango

but then you would have to cover the entire plane!!


----------



## Thorough Pro

nuclearpak said:


> but then you would have to cover the entire plane!!


 
That is why they are parked in shaedes / shelters.


----------



## relativiti

I want to ask a question to all the pakistani members here that if pakistan air force is looking for a 5th generation fighter in the future?? probably 2020 onwards......a joint collaboration with china???? a customized version of J-20 perhaps??


----------



## Manticore

^ many things can happen in 10 years... who knows we build e tot silent eagle versions of both jf17 and j10.. and ultimated join single engined jv for 5th and 6th gen fighters with any of the multiple chinese companies working on these projects at the moment...

paf will take necessary steps when pakfa is inducted across the border


----------



## relativiti

I have few more question to you guys..........

1. Is JF-17 and F-16 are the only fighters reliable in PAF inventory??? What about mirage3,5, F-7......are they obsolete??,

2. In case of an aerial invasion by a) India using Su-30MKI. Mig-29, MRCA etc *OR* b) USA using F/A-18, F-16, E/A-18, F-15E, B-2 etc....... which aircraft would PAF depend more?* 

3. Since PAF is using both US and China made fighters does PAF acts as a middleman in allowing USA to check out Chinese tech and China to check out USA tech??

Note: The second question is just my curiosity and invasions are highly unlikely.


----------



## Luftwaffe

Mirage III/V ROSE (Retrofit of Strike Element) and F-7PG will remain to serve in PAF for few more years to come. The older Mirages and F-7P will be retired as the number of JF-17s roll out of factory to replace older aircraft in service/squadrons..
PAF is and will depend on all options PAF didn't buy 500 AMRAAMs for nothing.

No PAF is a professional Force PAF does not allow either China to check F-16s or US to check non American tech.


----------



## BATMAN

Recently, PAF and PLAAF had condeucted joint excercises in Pakistan but all hush hush.
from PLAAF, it ought to be J-10!


----------



## Silk

The Chinese went to Turkey with the same Flankers...


----------



## Najam Khan

Infra-red Line scan (IRLS) was inducted in PAF in 1983. No.5 Sqn (then TA & R Sqn) operated it since then. I am unable to find any image of it, if any one has it please post here.


----------



## relativiti

To ALL you guys, there are lots of stuffs(praise and criticism) about PAF's backbone fighter JF-17 and many technical explanations and imaginations in this forum.
I'd like to know what is pakistan's contribution to this project?? Don't take it in the wrong way, i'm just not privy to the facts!! i know about chinese aviation capabilities but i'd seriously like to know pak's area of contribution in this project (point wise briefly).
Thank You!!


----------



## fatman17

relativiti said:


> To ALL you guys, there are lots of stuffs(praise and criticism) about PAF's backbone fighter JF-17 and many technical explanations and imaginations in this forum.
> I'd like to know what is pakistan's contribution to this project?? Don't take it in the wrong way, i'm just not privy to the facts!! i know about chinese aviation capabilities but i'd seriously like to know pak's area of contribution in this project (point wise briefly).
> Thank You!!



check the JFT threads - its all there - been discussed many times


----------



## Manticore

before the pakistani involvement in the jft programme-- it was merely an upgraded f-7 [called sabre2] 


paf engineers studied the design and came up with proposals--after that paf engineers and experienced f16 pilots joined hands in upgrading the requirements -- so , rumours of supplying an old f16 jet as well as test pilots which could easily compare the performance of jft protypes with f16a surfaced-- f16 influence is apparent in the jft

r&d offices might not be present , initially at kamra , however kamra was repairing overhauling modifying and maintaining ALL our inventory at that time-- so the engineers went directly to the r&d offices in china , rather waiting [and wasting several years ] for the setup to mature in pak kamra--- the number of engineers increased and made a mini pakistan city their.


99% people on this forum are not directly related to the jft programme, on top of that due to chinese secrecy programme , we dont find many links on the internet anyway. most of the chinese links are being found now, thanks to google translate --YOU got to understand ,''AVIONICS PACKAGE, COUNTERMEASURES, etc are very broad and vague terms--- there are SO many subsystems in a fighter, that you cant count them on your fingers-- only now, some of the systems have appeared in the media and most of them are produced at kamra.

nabil does post some enginearing tidbits improvements in jft from his pakistani sources

imran did post 7 posts together describing the pak. compaines aswell as their long subsystem production lists-- i have to say it was quite impressive

tempest provided some info on the inital klj7 radar

frankly, i dont even care if we didnt contribute anything except money, in this programme--- the end result is , we are gradually able to manufacture all parts of jft in pakistan within 5 years--initially it was just assembly line and now even the avionics packages are being produced in kamraa--not to mention the great exposure presented to our engineers in this process-- r&d is still going on for a twin seeter and stealthy version of jft aswell as j10b--- that too after the proposals from pakistan-- you got to understand , a person can only provide proposals WHEN he knows what he is doing and has the basic command on the subject

this jv has provided a very strong basic foundation in r&d, production of a modern fighter-- which will eventually help our aircraft industry


go through the jft info pool--- however their is no official report on this subject from a proffesional that we can point you to other than scattered info of different systems being produced alongwith r&d in pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## relativiti

ANTIBODY said:


> before the pakistani involvement in the jft programme-- it was merely an upgraded f-7 [called sabre2]
> 
> 
> paf engineers studied the design and came up with proposals--after that paf engineers and experienced f16 pilots joined hands in upgrading the requirements -- so , rumours of supplying an old f16 jet as well as test pilots which could easily compare the performance of jft protypes with f16a surfaced-- f16 influence is apparent in the jft
> 
> r&d offices might not be present , initially at kamra , however it was repairing overhauling modifying and maintaining ALL our inventory at that time-- so the engineers went directly to the r&d offices in china , rather waiting for the setup to mature in pak kamra--- the number of engineers increased and made a mini pakistan city their.
> 
> 
> 99% people here are not related to the jft programme, on top of that due to chinese secrecy programme , we dont find many links on the internet anyway.there are SO many subsystems in a fighter, that you cant count them on your fingers-- only now, some of the systems have appeared in the media and most of them are produced at kamra.
> 
> nabil does post some enginearing tidbits improvements in jft from his pakistani sources
> 
> imran did post 7 posts together describing the pak. compaines aswell as their long subsystem production lists-- i have to say it was quite impressive
> 
> tempest provided some info on the inital klj7 radar
> 
> frankly, i dont even care if we didnt contribute anything except money, in this programme--- the end result is , we are gradually able to manufacture all parts of jft in pakistan within 5 years--initially it was just assembly line and now even the avionics packages are being produced in kamraa--not to mention the great exposure presented to our engineers in this process-- r&d is still going on for a twin seeter and stealthy version of jft aswell as j10b--- that too after the proposals from pakistan-- you got to understand , a person can only provide proposals WHEN he knows what he is doing
> 
> this jv has provided a very strong basic foundation in r&d, production of a modern fighter-- which will eventually help our aircraft industry
> 
> 
> go through the jft info pool--- however their is no official data on this subject from a proffesional that we can point you to other than scattered info of different systems being produced alongwith r&d in pakistan.


 
thanks for that!
not sure if i understood all of it!!!
you mentioned stealth so does that mean 5th gen JF-17 or something like the EF which has some partial stealth feature


----------



## fatman17

recently the ACM give sqdn colours to No.4 Squadron - if one checks the PAF ORBAT, No.4 Sqdn is not listed under any of the current Wings.

so the question arises.

1-was No.4 number-plated?
2-is No.4 activated?
3-which type of a/c it has re-equipped with? - the mirages of No.5 sqdn (who have the new F-16s) or No.4 is getting ready for the 3rd sqdn of the JFT.

any ideas?


----------



## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> recently the ACM give sqdn colours to No.4 Squadron - if one checks the PAF ORBAT, No.4 Sqdn is not listed under any of the current Wings.
> 
> so the question arises.
> 
> 1-was No.4 number-plated?
> 2-is No.4 activated?
> 3-which type of a/c it has re-equipped with? - the mirages of No.5 sqdn (who have the new F-16s) or No.4 is getting ready for the 3rd sqdn of the JFT.
> 
> any ideas?


 
Well Sir, 

If you are talking in reference to this news item PAF fully capable to thwart any threat: Air Chief | The Jazba Blog, Seeking for truth then i believe this No4 Sqd is something in the PAF Academy, like the 1st, 2nd & 3rd Pak Battalions we have in PMA. This No 4 Sqd does not seems to be an operational Sqd. 

But in the past we did used to have a No 4 Sqd which got deactivated, and i believe it was for SAR purposes.

http://www.paffalcons.com/squadrons/index.php



If am missing anything let me know plz.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> Well Sir,
> 
> If you are talking in reference to this news item PAF fully capable to thwart any threat: Air Chief | The Jazba Blog, Seeking for truth then i believe this No4 Sqd is something in the PAF Academy, like the 1st, 2nd & 3rd Pak Battalions we have in PMA. This No 4 Sqd does not seems to be an operational Sqd.
> 
> But in the past we did used to have a No 4 Sqd which got deactivated, and i believe it was for SAR purposes.
> 
> PAF Falcons - PAF s' Squadrons
> 
> 
> 
> If am missing anything let me know plz.



Pakistan Air Force Academy
Primary Flying Training Wing

1 Primary Flying Training Squadron
MFI-395 Super Mushshak

2 Primary Flying Training Squadron
MFI-395 Super Mushshak

Basic Flying Training Wing
Basic Flying Training Squadron

T-37C Tweet

Advanced/Basic Flying Training Wing
Advanced/Basic Flying Training Squadron

K-8 Karakorum

K-8P Karakorum

Flying Instructors' School*
MFI-395 Super Mushshak

T-37C Tweet

Evaluation Flight
K-8 Karakorum

K-8P Karakorum


no No.4 Squadron listed under the PAF Academy.


----------



## Zarbe Momin

Very Serious question need reply please.
I want to know in 2006-2007 there were news that Pakistan got VERA passive sensor from Czech, what was outcome, have we that sort of thing now or we have developed something like that after checking that technology and know how.


----------



## FC 20

after the osama incident wat will happen to the 14 F 16s PAF wanted to get ,KC 135S THROUGH EDA,the 30 bells on order and the super vipers v were abt to get by 2015? plz can any onyone answer?


----------



## Windjammer

Can you guys identify the equipment on the Mirage's centre pylon ? it doesn't look like a fuel tank.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Can you guys identify the equipment on the Mirage's centre pylon ? it doesn't look like a fuel tank.



i dont know but nice pic though!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## SQ8

@jammer..
Its a LOROP pod.
Long range Oblique Photography.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Windjammer

Thanks for that Santro,
But as the aircraft is a dedicated Recce version (III RP), what benefit does the pod offer.


----------



## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Thanks for that Santro,
> But as the aircraft is a dedicated Recce version (III RP), what benefit does the pod offer.


 
Stand off capability for recce.
The cameras in the nose of the Rp's are only looking down.. which means they have to fly overhead or very close to a potentially highly defended target.. putting themselves at sure shot risk of being shot down.
With LOROP.. you look at the target from the side via long range cameras and relatively away from SHORADs surrounding the target.
Such a view does have its disadvantages.. you are looking at only one angle .. and whilst you may get a better look at the facility from the view as compared to conventional recce..you may miss something behind a building(although you may catch something through the open doors of a hangar).

Interestingly.. I wonder what happened to the DB-110 pods ordered ??.. are they still heading to the Vipers or have they been re-designated for the Mirage.. which is what we might be looking at.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## nightcrawler

Santro said:


> @jammer..
> Its a LOROP pod.
> Long range Oblique Photography.


 
More info here: Condor 2



> With LOROP.. you look at the target from the side via long range cameras and relatively away from SHORADs surrounding the target.



That is why the word 'Oblique'


----------



## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> i dont know but nice pic though!


 
Thats not LOROP, its LORAP (Long Range Aerial Reconnaissance pod). Its was inducted in PAF in 1978, iam confident that No.5 Sqn (then TA&R Sqn) is the only recipient of LORAP. Since past 33 years, LORAP is providing trans-frontier imagery to both PAF and PA.

In the past it was used to capture imagery of Siachin glacier too. No.5 Sqn also provided accurate images of water level during floods, these photos were helpful in making decisions at the right time.

Infra-red Line scan (IRLS) was also another pod used by the unit, it was inducted in 1983. IRLS provided both day and night imagery to PAF. Its also attached to centerline pylon.

With induction of Goodrich's DB110 No.5 MR sqn is continuing its reconnaissance role.

All the No.5 Sqn Mirages and its related equipment(H-2/4, LORAP, IRLS, durandal bombs etc) are distributed among other Mirage Sqn. Most of them are alloted to only one unit.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Najam Khan

No.5 Sqn Mirage with LORAP, mid90s photo.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

NAjAM Khan said:


> No.5 Sqn Mirage with LORAP, mid90s photo.


 
now the question is which mirage version this one is. it is quite different


----------



## MJaa

NAjAM Khan said:


> No.5 Sqn Mirage with LORAP, mid90s photo.


 
Incredible find brother, keep up the goodwork


----------



## Najam Khan

danger-zone said:


> now the question is which mirage version this one is. it is quite different


 
Thats ex-RAAF Mirage-IIIEA received under Blue Flash V contract, 42 Mirage-IIIEA and 8 dual seat Mirage-IIIDA were part of the deal. Later in next couple of years all of these Mirages went to PAC for ROSE Upgrade.

No.5 Sqn has the distinction of following more Mirages variants then any other squadron in the world, Mirage-IIIEA/DA/EP/RP and Mirage-VDR were part of their inventory in the last decade.


----------



## humza_313

NAjAM Khan said:


> Thats ex-RAAF Mirage-IIIEA received under Blue Flash V contract, 42 Mirage-IIIEA and 8 dual seat Mirage-IIIDA were part of the deal. Later in next couple of years all of these Mirages went to PAC for ROSE Upgrade.
> 
> No.5 Sqn has the distinction of following more Mirages variants then any other squadron in the world, Mirage-IIIEA/DA/EP/RP and Mirage-VDR were part of their inventory in the last decade.



PAF was also known as the mirage force apart from the f-6/f-7s used in large number..! we are the largest users of mirage after france with a wide variety and many different versions and derivatives.

but does anyone have any update on the induction of mirage 2000s in the future?


----------



## GHOST RIDER

Can any body tell me how many F-16 will we have by 2015????????all blocks????


----------



## GHOST RIDER

Guy can any body tell me what this thing is,on the F-16 block52 and 60.between the fuel tanks


----------



## Najam Khan

GHOST RIDER said:


> Guy can any body tell me what this thing is,on the F-16 block52 and 60.between the fuel tanks


 
Its the dorsal spine only dual seat Bk52/60 F16s have it. It contains the electronic warfare avionics and other additional features which are related to the weapons controller or GIBS.


----------



## fatman17

humza_313 said:


> PAF was also known as the mirage force apart from the f-6/f-7s used in large number..! we are the largest users of mirage after france with a wide variety and many different versions and derivatives.
> 
> but does anyone have any update on the induction of mirage 2000s in the future?



there are no plans to induct m2k


----------



## alimobin memon

who needs m2k now?


----------



## INSVikramidtya

Does Pakistan have plans for acquiring a 5th gen aircraft? any deals are signed?


----------



## humza_313

INSVikramidtya said:


> Does Pakistan have plans for acquiring a 5th gen aircraft? any deals are signed?




not yet... but we might have talks with china soon. but the indian government boosted its talks with china after the successful evaluation of j-20 and also progressed work on the PAK FA-T-50..!


----------



## humza_313

alimobin memon said:


> who needs m2k now?


 
the m2k n version is still at the peak dude...! it is very lethal

this the mirage 2k family


----------



## humza_313

The Mirage 2000N is the nuclear strike variant which was intended to carry the Aerospatiale Air-Sol Moyenne Portee (ASMP) nuclear stand-off missile. Initial flight tests of two prototypes began on February 3, 1983, and the Mirage 2000N entered operational service in 1988. A total of 75 were built.

The fighter had strengthened wings for low-altitude operations, as well as low-level precision navigation/attack systems, built around the Dassault/Thales Antilope 5 radar, which was designed for the strike role and featured a terrain-avoidance capability.

The ASMP missile is 5.38 meters long with a kerosene-powered ramjet that allows it to cruise at Mach 3 to a maximum range of 100 km carrying a nuclear warhead with a yield of 300 kT.


----------



## SQ8

The M2k-5-2 is the peak.. able to do all that the N variant does.. and more.
the N stands for nuclear.. nothing more.. otherwise its just another M2K-D.


----------



## INSVikramidtya

Hasnt the Mirage 2000 production line discontinued already. IAF was very much interested in these fighters but by the time MMRCA came out, Mirage was discontinued and the French offered the Rafale instead


----------



## INSVikramidtya

humza_313 said:


> not yet... but we might have talks with china soon. but the indian government boosted its talks with china after the successful evaluation of j-20 and also progressed work on the PAK FA-T-50..!


 
Ya FGFA project work is going on by Russia and India and I think it will be inducted by 2019-2020, 2 years after the J-20 is inducted by China.


----------



## ahsanraza81

I read somewhere France denied its fighter planes to Pakistan Air Force(PAF)

*plz confirm..*


----------



## SQ8

ahsanraza81 said:


> I read somewhere France denied its fighter planes to Pakistan Air Force(PAF)
> 
> *plz confirm..*


 
They'll deny Pakistan food and water if need be.. Since right now they need to sell the Rafale to India.

The denial involved avionics for the JF-17.. not an aircraft.


----------



## humza_313

ahsanraza81 said:


> I read somewhere France denied its fighter planes to Pakistan Air Force(PAF)
> 
> *plz confirm..*



the benazir government had continued the deal in early and mid 90s for the purchase of the mirage 2ks.. but this deal dissolved with the dissolving of the benazir government is mid 90s..

the french never rejected the mirage sale, they were only not selling the complete 2k package to pakistan due to come restrictions during those days on Pakistan.

on the other hand, Pakistan is the 2nd largest user of mirage family after France itself and operates various versions of that fighter.


----------



## humza_313

INSVikramidtya said:


> Ya FGFA project work is going on by Russia and India and I think it will be inducted by 2019-2020, 2 years after the J-20 is inducted by China.


 

yes most probably.
do you have any idea that the rejection of russian MIGs by the indian government would have affected the progress of t-50?
the russian government was not happy after the cancellation of a $12 billion deal?


----------



## INSVikramaditya

humza_313 said:


> yes most probably.
> do you have any idea that the rejection of russian MIGs by the indian government would have affected the progress of t-50?
> the russian government was not happy after the cancellation of a $12 billion deal?


 
No government would be happy after losing a $12 billion deal . But I dont think it would affect the FGFA program. India and Russia have a lot of collaboration on other projects like Brahmos and share a strong defence relationship. Plus we continue to induct the Su30MKI too in large numbers


----------



## humza_313

INSVikramaditya said:


> No government would be happy after losing a $12 billion deal . But I dont think it would affect the FGFA program. India and Russia have a lot of collaboration on other projects like Brahmos and share a strong defence relationship. Plus we continue to induct the Su30MKI too in large numbers



 hahaha..ok!


----------



## wakapdf

@ 4:21 i think its a jaguar but what i found extraordinary was that it was carrying Air to Air missiles on top of wings rather than below it. Could jf17 or mirage be modified to carry more light weight missiles through this technique or is it only something limited to jaguars


----------



## satishkumarcsc

You mean like this?


----------



## solid snake

I have an important question regarding the air force. I am about to complete my Bachelors in Engineering, Electronics (specializing in Mechatronics). In today's (Sunday's) dawn newspaper, there is an ad for the 108 non-GD course and it states that persons with BE degrees can apply for Special Short Services Commission. 

My question is, what is the scope for officers who've been granted special SSC? I know that such officers can be granted PC upon satisfactory performance (after how many years though?), but once the PC has been granted, are the career prospects the same as those of engineers who've graduated from Risalpur? Generally, what is the highest rank that persons who've been granted PC after entering the special SSC can attain? Wing Commander, Group Captain, Air Commodore? or not even W/C? 

I am highly interested in applying for the next non-GD course as a Special SSC candidate in the engineering branch. But starting out with a rank of Flying Officer at the age of 25-26 will only be worth it if in the future I can attain PC and then good career advancement is possible in the air force.

Those who know the answers, please help me out!


----------



## Najam Khan

solid snake said:


> My question is, what is the scope for officers who've been granted special SSC?


You can join Engg branch, the work will be related to your field not of Aernautical Engg.



solid snake said:


> I know that such officers can be granted PC upon satisfactory performance (after how many years though?), but once the PC has been granted, are the career prospects the same as those of engineers who've graduated from Risalpur? Generally, what is the highest rank that persons who've been granted PC after entering the special SSC can attain? Wing Commander, Group Captain, Air Commodore? or not even W/C?


If AF is impressed by your work, you wil get the offer to sign the bond within five years, else after seven years you'll be asked if you want to continue service or not...The highest rank for SSC Officers is Air Cdre, the highest post is ACAS....the extension of career depends on other situations in service, SSC Officers face promotion board for W/C and onwards ranks.



solid snake said:


> I am highly interested in applying for the next non-GD course as a Special SSC candidate in the engineering branch. But starting out with a rank of Flying Officer at the age of 25-26 will only be worth it if in the future I can attain PC and then good career advancement is possible in the air force.


Whats you age now? as i recall training period is 52weeks...once you are in AF, age is not an issue medical condition matters in later years. I know people who joined for SSC at age of 28/29..even one at 34, all are Sqn Ldrs now and doing great....Good luck!


----------



## TOPGUN

Guys can some one list all air to air missles and air to ground missles and bombs that PAF carries in its inventory thought to have a list here would be nice thx.


----------



## razgriz19

^^i think pictures would be much appreciated..


----------



## gOtHmOG

I've got a question, may sound silly to the professionals. During the tensions following the Mumbai incident there were frequent incursions by the IAF. I've got it in my head that the PAF was flying J-5s or other low tech fighter at low altitudes near the border. A potential IAF incursion would be countered by them popping up and revealing themselves to discourage the fighters. Is this tactic viable or will the look-down-shoot-down capability of the radars pick them up from a distance


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

gOtHmOG said:


> I've got a question, may sound silly to the professionals. During the tensions following the Mumbai incident there were frequent incursions by the IAF.



not several...just one or two. And they scurried away as fast as they tried coming in. A ''test'' of sorts which they learned the answer to quite quickly.




> I've got it in my head that the PAF was flying J-5s or other low tech fighter at low altitudes near the border.



F-7PGs interceptors were dispatched and deployed

A-5s are only for ground attack roles. They were not used. 


rest of your question i would leave to experts on it. There are methods, but you have to give scenario. You have within visual range and beyond visual range combat. 

when the visual is established, many tactics cud be used depending on the situation....though once again, once the aircraft leaves Pakistani territory they can't really be fired upon --unless of course the countries are officially at war.


----------



## gOtHmOG

BVR for sure. Can the defending aircraft be detected and be successfully locked on to even with the ground clutter?


----------



## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> Guys can some one list all air to air missles and air to ground missles and bombs that PAF carries in its inventory thought to have a list here would be nice thx.



TG we have done this many times - just check the airforce monthly thread for it


----------



## F86 Saber

I have a question, 

Does the Maximum Range of a Missile (Say BVR AIM-120 having 110 KM as maximum range) mean that the Missile only has energy to fly till +/- 120 KM and after that it will drop to the ground? Does this mean that if the fired upon aircraft can turn away and go beyond 110 KM of the point where the missile was fired it can evade the threat?


----------



## epinephrine

i m not a missile expert but if something is out of a missile's max range how it can get hit by that missile???


----------



## F86 Saber

Actually my question is whether the Max range of a Missile determined by the effective range of radar or the juice the missile carries?


----------



## BelligerentPacifist

F86 Saber said:


> I have a question,
> 
> Does the Maximum Range of a Missile (Say BVR AIM-120 having 110 KM as maximum range) mean that the Missile only has energy to fly till +/- 120 KM and after that it will drop to the ground? Does this mean that if the fired upon aircraft can turn away and go beyond 110 KM of the point where the missile was fired it can evade the threat?





F86 Saber said:


> Actually my question is whether the Max range of a Missile determined by the effective range of radar or the juice the missile carries?



Yes it would eventually drop off the sky, but this is usually a managed affair i.e. the autodestruct kicks in.

That range is quoted at a certain altitude, a certain aircraft speed etc and is usually the max of all those possible. You can be almost sure your aam won't fly its max range most of the time.

Radar is a limiting factor in aam use but usually the radar liiks far beyond the aam's range, which is dependent on the the kinetic energy of and the drag on the missile, and the ke is imparted mostly by the rocket motor on it, which btw burns only seconds not all the way to max range.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## epinephrine

during the last stages in the flight of an active radar guided missile such as the amraam the missile depends upon its own radar rather then the radar of the air craft that's y they r called as "fire n forget"missiles.so the max range depends upon the power carried by the missile in itself.
f-16c blk 52 has a radar range of abt 300 km n the max range of the amraam is 105 km so i think its the missile energy that gets depleted in the last stages of its flight

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nightcrawler

F86 Saber said:


> Actually my question is whether the Max range of a Missile determined by the effective range of radar or the juice the missile carries?


As far as I know it depends on following factors

*Primary Factors*

1] Propellant in missile
2] Direction of incoming target
3] Speed of incoming target
4] Direction of launch vehicle
5] Speed of launch vehicle (Russian R-77 (RVV-AE) Missile launched from JF-17 has relatively reduced range than if launched from F-16/ Mig-29 with afterburner)
6] Altitude (less dense air in upper atmosphere causes less drag & greater range is achieved)

others factors are...speed/direction of wind

Radar has nothing to do with range...its a guiding hand. Missile with terminal active onboard seekers like the Russian missile I mentioned will function even if it transgresses the limits of say aeroplane radar range

having understood above mentioned factors observe this sentence:

Fired against *high-altitude * *non-maneuvering* targets approaching *head-on*, the R-77RVV-AE has a range of 100 km (62 mi),

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## F86 Saber

So from nightcrawler's post i gather that the max range of a missile is the max energy it carries and if it goes into self lock mode at the time it is running out of energy and still is far enough away from it's target it will reach a maximum distance and then self destruct. Right? So lets say a jet is locked at 90 NM by an AIM 120, if it can turn and go a further 20-30 miles in the other direction before the missile gets close enough it will be safe.


----------



## gOtHmOG

Can low flying planes be locked on to at BV ranges?


----------



## Luftwaffe

Does anyone out there has any information on PAF Handley Page Halifax if there is any airframe that survived and stored. 

I haven't been able to find good information on it and why has it not become a part of PAF Museum.


----------



## razgriz19

F86 Saber said:


> So from nightcrawler's post i gather that the max range of a missile is the max energy it carries and if it goes into self lock mode at the time it is running out of energy and still is far enough away from it's target it will reach a maximum distance and then self destruct. Right? So lets say a jet is locked at 90 NM by an AIM 120, if it can turn and go a further 20-30 miles in the other direction before the missile gets close enough it will be safe.



ok lets make things a bit more clear.
pilots fire missiles when the target is atleast 1/3 of its range! so for 100km missile, a pilot would fire it when the target is about 30km away.
most BVR missiles has a range around 100km (head on). the range will change depending on the target's velocity, direction (if its moving away from the launching aircraft or heading right towards it). if its coming head on then the pilot could fire the missile at target 50km away (because the distance missile has to travel is decreasing as the target is coming towards it). if the target is moving away then the missile would be fired at about 25km-30km or much less, because it would deplete its fuel as it chases the target! however if the target gets out of missile's max range then yes, it will be safe.


----------



## razgriz19

i have a question, does anyone know how old are those IL-78MP refuellers that we bought from Ukraine?
they are not new, im pretty sure about that so how old are they?


----------



## VelocuR

razgriz19 said:


> i have a question, does anyone know how old are those IL-78MP refuellers that we bought from Ukraine?
> they are not new, im pretty sure about that so how old are they?


 
dear my son, why you so much care about old vs new ?? Is that matters for you, what you sure ?!? Are you suggest brand new expensive KC-130F tanker ??


----------



## Luftwaffe

RaptorRX707 said:


> dear my son, why you so much care about old vs new ?? Is that matters for you, what you sure ?!? Are you suggest brand new expensive KC-130F tanker ??


 
Actually US ordered more KC-130J for tankers and with their inductions older F models more of them retired. The KC-130J is the latest variant operated by the United States Marine Corps, with 38 delivered out of 47 ordered. It replaced older KC-130F and KC-130R variants. 

I don't know if PAF has any plans to gets specialized KC-130 variant as tankers.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> Actually US ordered more KC-130J for tankers and with their inductions older F models more of them retired. The KC-130J is the latest variant operated by the United States Marine Corps, with 38 delivered out of 47 ordered. It replaced older KC-130F and KC-130R variants.
> 
> I don't know if PAF has any plans to gets specialized KC-130 variant as tankers.



EDA request has been made but with 'relations' as they are, dont expect anything soon....


----------



## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> i have a question, does anyone know how old are those IL-78MP refuellers that we bought from Ukraine?
> they are not new, im pretty sure about that so how old are they?



they were upgraded and overhauled - engines are new. i dont know how old the airframe is!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> EDA request has been made but with 'relations' as they are, dont expect anything soon....


 
There was a PAF C-130's pilot's picture at Zhuhai wearing KC130 patch(if iam not mistaken). It seems that something is in the pipe line..as you said it depends on 'relations'!


----------



## fatman17

NAjAM Khan said:


> There was a PAF C-130's pilot's picture at Zhuhai wearing KC130 patch(if iam not mistaken). It seems that something is in the pipe line..as you said it depends on 'relations'!



PAF crews were 'training' with USAF.


----------



## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> PAF crews were 'training' with USAF.


 
Training on KC130 is different thing and training in US is different thing. What i mean was that he may have 'earned' the patch after successful conversion not after 'exchange' of patch.


----------



## razgriz19

RaptorRX707 said:


> dear my son, why you so much care about old vs new ?? Is that matters for you, what you sure ?!? Are you suggest brand new expensive KC-130F tanker ??


 
first of all my question was not directed towards any "brand new expensive KC-130F tanker"!
and yes it does matter! every aircraft has its operating life, after which it doesn't considered airworthy! these IL-78 were in service with some ukranian airline, and so i just wanted to know how old these airframes were! 
upgrades can only increase the life by certain amount..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hassan1



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Last Hope

Ata Rabbani.. I love him. Got his books with me.


----------



## rockstarIN

Guys one question, hope some experts can reply.

Can a Navy fighter be operated from ground air base? say F-18 Navy model or Sea harrier?


----------



## SQ8

rockstar said:


> Guys one question, hope some experts can reply.
> 
> Can a Navy fighter be operated from ground air base? say F-18 Navy model or Sea harrier?


 
The Swiss and Finnish AF's do it with the F-18..
The Canadians do it with the CF-18.
USMC jets switch from carrier to land when needed.
Heck they even tried using a land based arrestor hook system coupled with a ski jump to allow F-18's to do STOL from the middle of the desert.

Reactions: Like Like:

2


----------



## Hulk

I have a very dumb question being civilian. Why do aircraft have emit fog/gas from wing tips. I have seen it in many pictures and.videos.


----------



## fatman17

indianrabbit said:


> I have a very dumb question being civilian. Why do aircraft have emit fog/gas from wing tips. I have seen it in many pictures and.videos.



i think its called 'contrails' maybe when the a/c cuts the air at supersonic speed, it creates this phenomenon


----------



## fatman17

*Cruise Missiles*

"Pakistan has developed its own cruise missile somewhat similar to Tomahawk cruise missile, named the Babur. Pakistan is
reportedly developing air-launched version of the Babur to be adapted to its ever increasing F-16 Fighting Falcon fleet and Chinese/Pakistan-made JF-17 fighters."

ADJ


----------



## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> *Cruise Missiles*
> 
> "Pakistan has developed its own cruise missile somewhat similar to Tomahawk cruise missile, named the Babur. Pakistan is
> reportedly developing air-launched version of the Babur to be adapted to its ever increasing F-16 Fighting Falcon fleet and Chinese/Pakistan-made JF-17 fighters."
> 
> ADJ


 But sir we need, Naval versions of Cruise missile if I am not wrong. Babur can have radi of target only 700Km and Ra'ad with 350Km.
If Navy can get somewhat 1000KM, it can not only target from 'other side' i.e. Near Bangladesh, but also we can get a whole fleet of Navy comming together. Those might include an A/C, and half a dozen other boats. If range is long one, then we wont have any danger from the Enemy's subs either.


----------



## Jango

fatman17 said:


> i think its called 'contrails' maybe when the a/c cuts the air at supersonic speed, it creates this phenomenon


 
with due respect sir fatman, i believe you are wrong a bit here, contrails are the trails from the engines of civilian or military jet at high altitudes, this phenomena happens when the exhaust from the engines at high altitude condense at hence give a smoke thing. The smoke at wingtips is the effect on air through the shockwave and compression produced by the aircraft at high G's or sharp turns. When sound barrier is broken then instead of only on the wingtips , the whole aircraft gets surrounded by compressional waves.

Hope i am not wrong and this clears it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

Last Hope said:


> But sir we need, Naval versions of Cruise missile if I am not wrong. Babur can have radi of target only 700Km and Ra'ad with 350Km.
> If Navy can get somewhat 1000KM, it can not only target from 'other side' i.e. Near Bangladesh, but also we can get a whole fleet of Navy comming together. Those might include an A/C, and half a dozen other boats. If range is long one, then we wont have any danger from the Enemy's subs either.



Navy is working on it

---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------




nuclearpak said:


> with due respect sir fatman, i believe you are wrong a bit here, contrails are the trails from the engines of civilian or military jet at high altitudes, this phenomena happens when the exhaust from the engines at high altitude condense at hence give a smoke thing. The smoke at wingtips is the effect on air through the shockwave and compression produced by the aircraft at high G's or sharp turns. When sound barrier is broken then instead of only on the wingtips , the whole aircraft gets surrounded by compressional waves.
> 
> Hope i am not wrong and this clears it.



no probs! thanks!


----------



## SBD-3

Last Hope said:


> But sir we need, Naval versions of Cruise missile if I am not wrong. Babur can have radi of target only 700Km and Ra'ad with 350Km.
> If Navy can get somewhat 1000KM, it can not only target from 'other side' i.e. Near Bangladesh, but also we can get a whole fleet of Navy comming together. Those might include an A/C, and half a dozen other boats. If range is long one, then we wont have any danger from the Enemy's subs either.


 
I think Babur has already been modified, here read through


> Pakistan Successfully Tests Hatf-VII Babur Cruise Missile
> Pakistan has successfully tested the Hatf-VII Babur Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM) today. Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) has announced that Hatf-VII Babur was test fired against the target at a range of 600 kilometers. Hatf-VII Babur Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM) has a* maximum range of 750 kilometers *km and can carry both conventional and nuclear warhead. Babur Cruise Missile is designed with stealth requirements in mind and with the capability to fly at very low altitude to avoid detection by the enemy radars. *Hatf-VII Babur Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM) was test fired from a new round canister instead of the typical box like canister used for the Babur LACM in the past.This could be a stepping stone towards fielding the long range cruise missile on the ships and submarines of the Pakistan Navy*.
> 
> Hatf-VII Babur Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM) uses the highly advance &#8216;Terrain Contour Matching&#8217; (TERCOM) and &#8216;Digital Scene Matching & Area Co-relation&#8217; (DSMAC) to achieve circular error probability (CEP) of only 3 meters, such pinpoint accuracy allow the Babur to be used in surgical strikes. Both President Asif Ali Zardari and Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani have applauded scientists behind the success of Hatf-VII Babur Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM). Both Pakistan and India are required to information the other country about the possible tests prior to the testing a ballistic missile under the agreement signed by both countries but this agreement don&#8217;t cover the testing of cruise missiles. Work on Hatf-VII Babur cruise missile was started in mid 1990 after Indian efforts to license produce the improved version of Russian Yakhont cruise missile which can also be used for land attacks. In 1998 Pakistan was able to recover atleast two intact US RGM/UGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missiles from the Southern Pakistan which were fired against the targets in Afghanistan by the United States of America. These missiles boosted the Pakistani efforts. *In August 2005, Pakistan announced that it has successfully test fired a ground launched cruise missile from with maximum range of 500 kilometers, later on this range was increased to 750 kilometers. Pakistani scientists are already working on a longer range version which will have range of 1,000 km.* Pakistan has also developed Ra&#8217;ad air launched cruise missile (ALCM) which has been tested in past to range of 350Km. *Third cruise missile designed for the Pakistan navy is also under development*. Pakistan Navy will be able to fire its cruise missile from its surface ships and submarines.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## razgriz19

i have a question, wouldn't it be better if PAF scrap plans for J-10B, and go with Anti-ballistic missile system?
since we dont have enough money to acquire both equipment at same time..

or create funds from somewhere to buy missile system, because i think its probably the most important defensive weapon that we dont posses.


----------



## mirage 5000

razgriz19 said:


> i have a question, wouldn't it be better if PAF scrap plans for J-10B, and go with Anti-ballistic missile system?
> since we dont have enough money to acquire both equipment at same time..
> 
> or create funds from somewhere to buy missile system, because i think its probably the most important defensive weapon that we dont posses.


 
air defence needs are on secound option always in PAF they trust on jets more then air defence sir.


----------



## razgriz19

mirage 5000 said:


> air defence needs are on secound option always in PAF they trust on jets more then air defence sir.


 
i understand, but im more concern about ballistic missiles and cruise missiles....
we need a long range air defence system to counter ballistic missiles


----------



## showstopper

I've heard that the government has prohibited the air force from inducting any twin-engine fighters until 2019. Is that true? And, if so, what's the reasoning behind it?


----------



## fatman17

showstopper said:


> I've heard that the government has prohibited the air force from inducting any twin-engine fighters until 2019. Is that true? And, if so, what's the reasoning behind it?



from whom have you heard this pl.


----------



## showstopper

fatman17 said:


> from whom have you heard this pl.


 
Just around these forums. I read two posts over the last few days that said that. One of them is here, http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-250.html (post #3739). Can't seem to find the one which referred to some sort of cabinet order. 

I've been digging around on the Internet for some official confirmation, but no luck so far. Any information would be greatly appreciated. The aircraft planned for induction in the next five years as well as the current inventory are single-engined, correct?


----------



## Manticore

> ''One-engine fighter aircraft is not my view but PAF.F-16, FC-20, and JF-17 are all one-engine and as per AFFDP-2019 no new fighter aircraft till atleast 2019.Both F-6 & A-5 were and are nighmaret to run a small check on the engine or any one engine.''


 - H Khan said it in 2006

Armed Forces Development Programme 2019



> The modernization stall would end in April 2006 when the *Pakistani cabinet approved *the Pakistan Air Force's proposal to procure 350 new fighters from the U.S and China. The Pakistan Government has launched the Armed Forces Development Programme - 2019 (AFFDP-2019); this programme will oversee the modernization of the Pakistan Air Force from now to 2019. According to the Business Recorder, a leading financial newspaper in Pakistan, PAF is interested to increase its strength. The list includes:
> 
> 36J-10A/B Vanguard fighters from China
> 37 F-16A/B Block 15OCU MLU-3 Fighting Falcon (ex-Peace Gate III/IV aircraft) from United States
> 18 F-16C/D Block 52 Fighting Falcon from United States, with an option for another 18[37][38]
> 250 JF-17 Thunder [39][40]
> 6 Saab 2000 Erieye AWACS + 1 Training Aircraft
> 4 IL-78 Midas Air-to-Air Refueling Aircraft
> 12 C-130H w/6 reserve C-130H Medium Lift Transport Aircraft
> 80+ K-8 Intermediate Jet Trainer[41]


 wiki

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## showstopper

ANTIBODY said:


> One-engine fighter aircraft is not my view but PAF.F-16, FC-20, and JF-17 are all one-engine and as per AFFDP-2019 no new fighter aircraft till atleast 2019.Both F-6 & A-5 were and are nighmaret to run a small check on the engine or any one engine. - H Khan


 
Thanks for the clarification. Pardon my ignorance, but what does AFFDP stand for?
So twin-engined fighters come with too many maintenance headaches? There goes my dream of seeing a Rafale in the PAF - not that the French would sell it to us anyway..

EDIT: Can you confirm if this decision was made by the government? Wouldn't the military have more knowledge of the details of running an air force?


----------



## fatman17

showstopper said:


> Just around these forums. I read two posts over the last few days that said that. One of them is here, http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-250.html (post #3739). Can't seem to find the one which referred to some sort of cabinet order.
> 
> I've been digging around on the Internet for some official confirmation, but no luck so far. Any information would be greatly appreciated. The aircraft planned for induction in the next five years as well as the current inventory are single-engined, correct?



who in our cabinet has the expertise to decide on one or two engines other than the PAF


----------



## showstopper

fatman17 said:


> who in our cabinet has the expertise to decide on one or two engines other than the PAF


 
That's exactly what I'm wondering. Pretty confused right now.


----------



## fatman17

ANTIBODY said:


> ''One-engine fighter aircraft is not my view but PAF.F-16, FC-20, and JF-17 are all one-engine and as per AFFDP-2019 no new fighter aircraft till atleast 2019.Both F-6 & A-5 were and are nighmaret to run a small check on the engine or any one engine.'' - H Khan



F6/A5 were robust platforms - i think the PAF thinking in those days was related to servicing two engines which had to be over-hauled after 100 hrs of flying time - the F6 was referred as 'fly and forget' after 100 hours and that is why they came relatively cheap! - so in that sense one can say it was difficult but not nightmarish. things and esp technology has changed a lot - Kamra itself has come a long way and such thinking should be passe!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## fatman17

showstopper said:


> That's exactly what I'm wondering. Pretty confused right now.



the delays in procurement plans are due to lack of funds - nothing else.


----------



## Manticore

sir fatman , ive updated my original post with ''cabinet'' and ''AFFDP-2019'' tags --- i am qouting wiki and hkhan and these are not my personal views

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## showstopper

fatman17 said:


> F6/A5 were robust platforms - i think the PAF thinking in those days was related to servicing two engines which had to be over-hauled after 100 hrs of flying time - the F6 was referred as 'fly and forget' after 100 hours and that is why they came relatively cheap! - so in that sense one can say it was difficult but not nightmarish. things and esp technology has changed a lot - Kamra itself has come a long way and such thinking should be passe!



Exactly! Hopefully the air force brass shares this view as well.



fatman17 said:


> the delays in procurement plans are due to lack of funds - nothing else.



Ah, I can see why that would be a problem then.

Thank you and Antibody for the help!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

ANTIBODY said:


> sir fatman , ive updated my original post with ''cabinet'' and ''AFFDP-2019'' tags --- i am qouting wiki and hkhan and these are not my personal views



no probs - HKhan is a reliable source but i am not a fan of wiki.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## *Awan*

what is the difference b/w AWACS and AEW&C.
which system is more superior?
and we have which one?


----------



## untitled

If this question has been asked before I am sorry....
Why did the PAF change its Fin Flash to the Pakistani flag and when

Secondly do PAF aircraft have a low visibilty roundel too ?


----------



## Manticore

Nomi965 said:


> what is the difference b/w AWACS and AEW&C.
> which system is more superior?
> and we have which one?


 


blain2 said:


> This is not correct. AWACS = AEW&C. Its a change in nomenclature and terminology over the past decade or so. All current systems including the Phalcon, Wedgetail, Erieye and E3 are now categorized as AEW&C. There are some old articles lingering on the web which try to make this distinction between the two definitions. The reality is that the only AWACS was the first one and that was the E-3 Sentry. That was the name given to the aircraft. People started linking the size of the platform to assume the bigger ones were AWACS and smaller ones AEW&C, when in reality, some of the smaller systems pack more gadgetry and technology than the bigger platforms. Now everything is AEW&C.


 here you go....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## fatman17

varigeo said:


> If this question has been asked before I am sorry....
> Why did the PAF change its Fin Flash to the Pakistani flag and when
> 
> Secondly do PAF aircraft have a low visibilty roundel too ?



as far as i remember PAF always had the Pak Flag (green background/crescent and star). the white strip was added in the 80's as its fin flash. low visibility roundels are a recent event esp on the F-16's. some C-130's also have the low-viz.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## untitled

fatman17 said:


> as far as i remember PAF always had the Pak Flag (green background/crescent and star)



But why was it changed ... can you please elaborate on that ? On whose orders?


----------



## fatman17

varigeo said:


> But why was it changed ... can you please elaborate on that ? On whose orders?



i dont have this info.


----------



## Manticore

the white depicts nonmuslims in pakistan and green depicts muslims -- i read that in 8th grade , its good that they are showing the full flag , eventhough its in low visibility mode


----------



## Last Hope

Oh Sorry. I only heard rumors of a Naval version of Babur, never saw the confirmation. 

Anyways even I have a little question. We all know about Jets, and some of us know each and every detail.
But one thing that bothers me is, how do the F-16s and other start? Is there any key or what? If so, are the keys always in the crafts during ADA?
Who has the keys whilst off duty?

Thanks.


----------



## untitled

Last Hope said:


> Anyways even I have a little question. We all know about Jets, and some of us know each and every detail.
> But one thing that bothers me is, how do the F-16s and other start? Is there any key or what? If so, are the keys always in the crafts during ADA?
> Who has the keys whilst off duty?
> 
> Thanks.



There are no keys

To start a jet engine you need to provide it with an air bleed (blow air in to the engine).... that can be provided with a Ground Start cart or an APU (Auxiliary Power Unit)
APU is a small engine inside an aircraft that doubles as a generator and provides air bleed too to the engine (or engines).... The APU itself is started by the aircrafts battery... The APU genrator can be used to power the electrical systems when the engines are off.... it is not advisable to to keep the APU on for lengthy peroid of time.... That is why there are extrneal power sockets too... YOu plug them in to the aircraft for power

Some fighters like Tornado have thier own APU.

Here is the start cart for the SR-71 (provides only air bleed not Electrical power)

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## VCheng

The F-16 will need a completed DTC inserted into its slot from an approved Mission Planning System in order to fly effectively.


----------



## muse

sorry unnecessary comment


----------



## hassan1

Aircraft Type: Vickers Viscount 734
Year Built: 1955
Inducted in PAF: 1956
PAF Serial Number: J-751
Phased out from PAF: 1967
currently status:?




Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## GHOST RIDER

I have a quetion
is PAF buying Norway F-16?


----------



## fatman17

GHOST RIDER said:


> I have a quetion
> is PAF buying Norway F-16?



discussions are taking place.


----------



## turkish

Is there any new Aircraft PAF is interested or looking for besides Chinese stuff???


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

i think they are ''analysing'' at least with a modicum of interest ---UAE Mirage-2000s


----------



## TaimiKhan

turkish said:


> Is there any new Aircraft PAF is interested or looking for besides Chinese stuff???


 
Nops, future tier would be JF-17s, F-16s, FC-20s and hopefully one stealth version.


----------



## ziaulislam

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i think they are ''analysing'' at least with a modicum of interest ---UAE Mirage-2000s


nope they are not as those mirages will need upgrades which are too expensive, besides its used by india..well if we get them free than it may be another story,,

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> nope they are not as those mirages will need upgrades which are too expensive, besides its used by india..well if we get them free than it may be another story,,



its a long shot but one never knows!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ziaulislam

india went for 50 odd upgrades worth 2.4 billion..
why would pakistan but and upgrade them in such large numbers..we can go for near 100 j-10 at that cost..even jf-17 is quite comparable to that role..if we get them as a gift from UAE (which is possible, i guss) then PAF would think to induct them..i said think, as adding infrastruture etc will be complicated thing


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

NEED URGENT HELP !

Kindly tel me which Jordanian F-104 shoot down IN Alize in 71 war. i need Sr. Number. A strong reference as well. 
Dont want to see this pic in answer .http://****************/pictures/data/3026/medium/(s)f-104b.jpg
it is in accurate.


----------



## rockstarIN

ziaulislam said:


> india went for 50 odd upgrades worth 2.4 billion..
> why would pakistan but and upgrade them in such large numbers..we can go for near 100 j-10 at that cost..even jf-17 is quite comparable to that role..if we get them as a gift from UAE (which is possible, i guss) then PAF would think to induct them..i said think, as adding infrastruture etc will be complicated thing


 
Good question, 2.4 million for 51 fighters. Quality matters...we are convinced that french systems are very good. (I still believe the cost is very high).

YOu need to pay more for good systems.


----------



## rockstarIN

One doubt,

Ever R-77 or |R-73 being fired upon any F-15,16 ot 18 aircrafts?


----------



## fatman17

danger-zone said:


> NEED URGENT HELP !
> 
> Kindly tel me which Jordanian F-104 shoot down IN Alize in 71 war. i need Sr. Number. A strong reference as well.
> Dont want to see this pic in answer .http://****************/pictures/data/3026/medium/(s)f-104b.jpg
> it is in accurate.



not accurate - the Alize was shot-down by PAF own starfighter.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> not accurate - the Alize was shot-down by PAF own starfighter.


 
But sir, i ve discussed it with a Sqn Ldr of No 8 Sqn and he two mentioned that it was a Jordanian aircraft and also read it some where before. access f-104 delivered to Pakistan by Jordan were stationed at Masroor. a few of them had Desert Camouflage.


----------



## fatman17

danger-zone said:


> But sir, i ve discussed it with a Sqn Ldr of No 8 Sqn and he two mentioned that it was a Jordanian aircraft and also read it some where before. access f-104 delivered to Pakistan by Jordan were stationed at Masroor. a few of them had Desert Camouflage.



i dont agree with what u say, but they were never used in combat.


----------



## Patriot

fatman17 said:


> i dont agree with what u say, but they were never used in combat.


 
Yes I can confirm that - I once asked Muradk and he clearly mentioned that Jordnonians air craft arrived without ejections tapes for seats hence PAF did not use them.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

ok... thats quite help full. i ve come to know from another source recently that it was not Jordanian. 
thanx . 

That question was related to this work of mine.














and here i wrote Serial 56-803, which crashed before 71 war. will rub it and put some sunlight effect on it to erase it from picture. because still no body knows which aircraft downed Alize !

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## krash

Patriot said:


> Yes I can confirm that - I once asked Muradk and he clearly mentioned that Jordnonians air craft arrived without ejections tapes for seats hence PAF did not use them.


 
I believe the ejection seat problem was with the F-5s which came. Did the F-104s share the same problem?


----------



## ziaulislam

rockstar said:


> Good question, 2.4 million for 51 fighters. Quality matters...we are convinced that french systems are very good. (I still believe the cost is very high).
> 
> YOu need to pay more for good systems.



india traditionally is blankcheck country for defence weapons..americans and french have sold same equipment half the price what its selling to india..you can compare the prices of c-130, globe master..even the french equipment sales follow the same suit


----------



## showstopper

I know that "plane A vs. plane B" threads are discouraged, but can anyone explain how the F-16 (block 52) stacks up against the JF-17 (either block) and J-10B? I know that the block 52s carry all the latest goodies, but the plane is still of 1980s development, and hopefully the latter two fighters can at least match it. Or am I being too naive haha?


----------



## TaimiKhan

showstopper said:


> I know that "plane A vs. plane B" threads are discouraged, but can anyone explain how the F-16 (block 52) stacks up against the JF-17 (either block) and J-10B? I know that the block 52s carry all the latest goodies, but the plane is still of 1980s development, and hopefully the latter two fighters can at least match it. Or am I being too naive haha?


 
Blk-52 is superior to both, if we look at overall picture, but may be in some factors JF-17 & J-10B may be superior to what Blk-52 has. 

But Blk-52 being a mature platform, and knowing American stuff, is superior overall. 

Nothing can be said about the future.


----------



## Beast

The only thing superior about Blk 52 will be the air to ground system which indeed is very mature. But when comes to air superiority, no doubt J-10A/B will come on top. 

It is also why india looks for rafale or typhoon instead of the so called f-16 I which claim to be superior to all previous Blk of F-16. They know they will be up against China J-10A/B which is very good in air superiority. While the air to ground task will be given to Su-30 MKI which has longer legged and higher weapon payload. Now PAF is going to have J-10B. It is even more important for India to get Typhoon or rafale.


----------



## showstopper

Thanks for the insight, gents.


----------



## Jango

Do the old dogfighting rules still apply? For example, get yourself in between the Sun and the Enemy, and the S turns and all?


----------



## nitetrogen70

any info on 5th gen fighter being in paf anytime between 2015 to 2020 ?


----------



## fatman17

nitetrogen70 said:


> any info on 5th gen fighter being in paf anytime between 2015 to 2020 ?



no known plans as of now but that dosnt mean the PAF planners are sitting 'idle'. they must be evaluating


----------



## killerx

any details on JF17 block2? or some one any images?


----------



## Last Hope

nitetrogen70 said:


> any info on 5th gen fighter being in paf anytime between 2015 to 2020 ?


Project going to start after 2014 and first stealth fighter to take trials in 2016. (Estimation. And till date, all estimated dates proved to be sooner than forecast)


killerx said:


> any details on JF17 block2? or some one any images?


Wait for 7 more months.


----------



## nitetrogen70

hehehe sounds good


----------



## killerx

Last Hope said:


> Project going to start after 2014 and first stealth fighter to take trials in 2016. (Estimation. And till date, all estimated dates proved to be sooner than forecast)
> 
> Wait for 7 more months.




what


----------



## killerx

what about the 50 17thunder for china i think they would be block1 right


----------



## circuitbaba

what will be the Third Squadron for JF-17....Does anybody know


----------



## killerx

block2 pic any or the official changes from block1?


----------



## alimobin memon

BF3: i5 2500k & GTX 580 Ultra 1080p - YouTube
A real warfare experience ... cobra maneuver is dangerous


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

guys i was wondering if some one gets lost in a certian area with no civilization around and he/she have a radio is there a frequency he can use to call for help like an emergency open frequency all forces listen to?


----------



## Blackpearl

40.5 MHz VHF, 243 MHz UHF

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

Blackpearl said:


> 40.5 MHz VHF, 243 MHz UHF


is that emergency specific


----------



## fatman17

*Battle of Sharoora - 1969, Saudi Arabia * 

During the 1969 South Yemen - Saudi conflict, many PAF men and officers from different branches based at Khamis took active part in the battle.

does anyone have any further info on this topic!?


----------



## GHOST RIDER

fatman17 said:


> *Battle of Sharoora - 1969, Saudi Arabia *
> 
> During the 1969 South Yemen - Saudi conflict, many PAF men and officers from different branches based at Khamis took active part in the battle.
> 
> does anyone have any further info on this topic!?



*In 1969, South Yemen (strong ally of USSR at that time) attacked and captured Mount Vadiya in Sharoora Province of Saudi Arabia. PAF pilots (and officers and men of other branches) who were serving in Saudi Arabia, along with the Saudi pilots drove the enemy away. The painting depicts two RSAF Lightnings successfully carrying out the close air support mission against the enemy tanks. RSAF Lightnings and F-86s took part in that battle*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Irfan Baloch

I have Aviation question


if the supersonic air has to be converted(slowed down) into subsonic before it can be fed to the engines from air intakes then does it not cause a lot of drag? what process ensures that the entry and exit of to and from the air intakes is smooth and turbulence free?
My guess is that this (super to subsonic conversion) process is resulting in a lot of fuel and energy being wasted that doesn&#8217;t directly contribute in keeping the jet afloat. explan


----------



## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> I have Aviation question
> 
> 
> if the supersonic air has to be converted(slowed down) into subsonic before it can be fed to the engines from air intakes then does it not cause a lot of drag? what process ensures that the entry and exit of to and from the air intakes is smooth and turbulence free?
> My guess is that this (super to subsonic conversion) process is resulting in a lot of fuel and energy being wasted that doesn&#8217;t directly contribute in keeping the jet afloat. explan



http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/48342-j-10-vs-f-16-technical-comparison-2.html#post1109192


----------



## Sapper

Irfan Baloch said:


> I have Aviation question
> 
> 
> if the supersonic air has to be converted(slowed down) into subsonic before it can be fed to the engines from air intakes then does it not cause a lot of drag? what process ensures that the entry and exit of to and from the air intakes is smooth and turbulence free?
> My guess is that this (super to subsonic conversion) process is resulting in a lot of fuel and energy being wasted that doesn&#8217;t directly contribute in keeping the jet afloat. explan



Dear, Good Question, But really tough to answer considering the audience.

The Supersonic air flowing into an engine is slowed down, but in effect it is also being compressed, and as a result, it is also getting HOT. Thats the whole point of burning fuel in the engine, heat the air so the it gets compressed due to rise of pressure, enabling it to pick up speed when exhausted.

This is how an (non afterburning) engine works.

1. Compress the inflowing air, using compressor stages. This increases Pressure and well as Temperature. The energy supplied to compressor is added to energy content of airflow, which is a product of Temperature, Pressure and Speed of air-mass.
2. Inject Fuel and Burn, Heating the air-mass, thus increasing its Temperature & Pressure tremendously, increasing the energy content of air-mass.
3. Run a small turbine stage from the high-temp-high-pressure air-mass, which in used provide power for the compressor stage. This reduces the overall energy content of the air-mass. But, an important thing to note is that under theoratical idealistic conditions energy added in compression is exactly the same amount as energy extracted in turbine, cancelling each other out.
4. Exhaust nozzle that allows controlled exit of airflow, designed in a way to maximize the thrust generated by the expanding high-temp-high-pressure airflow into high-speed airflow. A significant part of pressure and heat is also carried by this exhaust which is lost-energy but cannot be helped (because of 2nd Law of Thermodynamics), amounting to almost 40~50% of total energy provided by fuel. This is wasted energy. Rest is all converted to thrust.

Now for a supersonic engine a pre-requisite stage is engineered into the engine.

0. Bring the Supersonic airflow to subsonic airflow, to allow for safe and steady compressor ingestion and operation. This slowed down airflow is already precompressed and preheated as a result of inlet design geometry. This heat+pressure is not lost but adds to the total energy carried out by the airflow, but indeed limits the overall max fuel consumption. Remember the higher the max fuel consumption, the higher the energy supplied, and thus higher the max thrust of the engine.


Now the only problem with this is that when subsonic, and engine intake air is cold, lets assume 25C. But during supersonic flight, the intake air is preheated and precompressed by the inlet, lets assume 200C. Now this is bad only beacause it tends to overheat the airflow to a point where turbine components start to show fatigue and failure. Do keep in mind that Turbine-Stage is the Hottest area of any engine, and all safe engine operation depends on keeping the turbine inlet temperature into safe operating limits, which tend to overshoot when operating at supersonic speeds due to heat added by intake geometry.


I assure you that this is a very dumbed down version and the actual thermodynamic calculations are far too complex, even under assumptions of ideal condition. Removing ideal-gas conditions makes those equations nightmares, and warrents use of mainframes and supercomputers to compute data.

Regards,
Sapper

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Irfan Baloch

thanks for explaining this. I must read few times to get the gist of it.

question I am wondering is

does the process of making the supersonic airflow to subsonic (before it can be fed to the engine) create some sort of drag or not?
or does the intake design and the process of compression actually doesnt let that happen?



Consider a conveyer belt moving with a steady pace containing 4x4 cm cubes of whatever. At the end there is a grinder which can take say 2 cubes of the said size at a time. Now suddenly the conveyer belt speed is increased say times x2 and a hammer is added at the end of the conveyer belt before the cubes fall into the grinder and that hammer smashes the cubes from 4x4 to 2x2 and then 4 cubes fall into the grinder now instead of 2 of original size but since they take the same volume so there is no extra strain on the grinder and no spillage. 

But in the absence of that hammer the grinder wont be able t take more cubes at higher speed and any form of obstacle to slow down the incoming cubes on the belt if result in a gridlock and a clog. Looks like I will have to let this question pass and tell myself that something magical happens that ensures that the air is slowed down and it doesn&#8217;t cause any drag because once the air is decompressed and escapes from the exhaust, the resulting thrust negates whatever initial drag would have happened at the point of super to sub sonic conversion.


----------



## Sapper

Irfan Baloch said:


> thanks for explaining this. I must read few times to get the gist of it.
> 
> question I am wondering is
> 
> does the process of making the supersonic airflow to subsonic (before it can be fed to the engine) create some sort of drag or not?
> or does the intake design and the process of compression actually doesnt let that happen?



Dear,

You are absolutely correct. There is a lot of DRAG at supersonic speed, and the action of slowing down the supersonic airflow to subsonic speeds produces quite a lot of drag. This is why the engine progressively loses its thrust to drag ratio, and there comes a point when the engine cannot accelerate the plane anymore, which determines its Top-Speed.

For example ... lets assume an imaginary plane with Mach 2 top speed.

1. At 0 speed, engine produces 100% thrust, 0% drag. Net result 100 units of acceleration.
2. At Mach 0.1, engine produces 98% thrust, 3% drag. Net result 95 units of acceleration.
3. At Mach 0.5, engine produces 90% thrust, 10% drag. Net resuly 80 units of acceleration.
4. At Mach 0.99, engine produces 85% thrust, 15% drag. Net result 70 units of acceleration.
5. At Mach 1.01, engine produces 75% thrust, 25% drag. Net result 50 units of acceleration.
6. At Mach 1.5, engine produces 60% thrust, 40% drag. Net result 20 units of acceleration.
7. At Mach 2, engine produces 50% thrust, 50% drag. Net result NO acceleration. Cannot go any faster.

Now keep in mind that the drag at supersonic speeds come from all over the plane, engine inlet is just small part of it. Infact at supersonic speeds, more than 90% of the drag is only coming from the leading edges of every surface, and not the skin of the surface itself, i.e. the wing's drag is mostly produced by its thin and sharp leading edge instead of the wing itself (that is why F104 had razor sharp leading edges, to reduce supersonic drag). Engine inlets do produce drag, but in overall scenario, this drag accounts for probable only 10~15% of the total drag produced by the entire body of the plane.

Hope this answers your querry.

Regards,
Sapper

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## fatman17

*RSAF Lightnings and F-86s took part in that battle*

whose F-86's? PAF


----------



## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> *RSAF Lightnings and F-86s took part in that battle*
> 
> whose *F-86's*? PAF



Its there apparently.. but when did they operate the type?
http://flic.kr/p/7GXu5R





Any ideas FM?


----------



## fatman17

Oscar said:


> Its there apparently.. but when did they operate the type?
> Saudi Air Force Museum, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia._7441 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any ideas FM?



your guess is as good as mine!

---------- Post added at 07:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------

the photostream seems to be from 1958


----------



## untitled

Oscar said:


> Its there apparently.. but when did they operate the type?
> Saudi Air Force Museum, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia._7441 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any ideas FM?


 


fatman17 said:


> your guess is as good as mine!
> the photostream seems to be from 1958



If Wikipedia is to be believed F-86s entered Saudi Service in 1966 with No.7 squadron which now operates the Tornadoes


----------



## shaam3346758628

Can anybody tell me what to do for lieutenant in pak air force


----------



## Fieldmarshal

shaam3346758628 said:


> Can anybody tell me what to do for lieutenant in pak air force



their is no such thing as a lieutenant in PAF. they are known as "flight lieutenant"
and if u want to join PAF than go to ur nearest PAF selection center or see the PAF website.


----------



## alibaz

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> guys i was wondering if some one gets lost in a certian area with no civilization around and he/she have a radio is there a frequency he can use to call for help like an emergency open frequency all forces listen to?



Any aircraft can request for help once it is in state of emergency on universal frequencies. These emergency frequencies are also known guard frequencies, it's 243 MHz for military use also known as Military Air Distress (MAD) and exact half of it, i.e. 121.5 for civilian use also known as International Air Distress (IAD).

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

* J-15 Flying Shark*

One of the J-15 prototypes was landing at SAC in mid-2011 revealing a retracted IFR probe behind the port side of the nose, canard forplanes and the indigenous WS-10H turbofan engine nozzles. J-15 is the first generation of Chinese shipborne fighter aircraft being developed by both 601 Institute and SAC for PLAN's first aircraft carrier. Initially there were rumors claiming that J-15 was a new semi-stealth design based on a similar but more advanced stealth design developed earlier by SAC/601 Institute to compete for the J-20 project (see below). However this design (J-18?) appears to be a follow-on design which is in the early development stage at SAC. In order to save time and cut cost, the aircraft turned out to be based on Russian Su-33 in terms of structural configuration and flight control system as well as domestic J-11B (see above) in terms of radar and weapon systems. Similar to Su-33, J-15 features enlarged folding wings/horizontal tailfins, strengthened landing gears with twin nose wheels, an arresting hook, a pair of small canard foreplanes and a larger wing area to improve its low speed handling and shortened tailcone to avoid tail-strike during high AoA landing. Some key shipborne aircraft technologies such as landing/navigational systems are believed to have been obtained from Russia and Ukraine. One Su-33 prototype (T-10K-3) was acquired from Ukraine around 2001 and has been studied extensively. Some components onboard J-15 are based on those onboard J-11B, such as the anti-ship enhanced PD radar (or AESA?), the glass cockpit as well as the improved WS-10H turbofan engine with a higher TO thrust (12,800kg) and better acceleration in order to achieve full-load taking off from the ski-jump. It can also fire a variety of Chinese designed weapons, including PL-8, PL-12 AAMs and YJ-83K AShM. Overall J-15 is believed to be in the same class of American F/A-18C. The aircraft is expected first to be stationed onboard the Varyag aircraft carrier currently being fitted in Dalian. The first prototype was assembled at SAC in 2008. It made the maiden flight on August 31, 2009, powered by two Russian AL-31F turbofan engines. The first takeoff from a land based simulated ski-jump occurred on May 6, 2010 at CFTE. Currently several prototypes are undergoing various tests at SAC and CFTE. A twin seat trainer version has also been planned (dubbed J-15S?). Recent images (May 2011) showed a J-15 prototype wearing a light navy blue color scheme and is powered by two WS-10H engines. At least 3 prototypes (S/N 551, 553 & 556) are currently unergoing various tests on simulated flight decks on the land, powered by Russian AL-31F turbofans. 

- Last Updated 2/8/12 

_would the PAF consider this platform for its maritime strike squadron in support of the PN?_

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## asadmunir

I applied in PF as LDC, But my domicial was not ready so I was unable for test. why domicial is necessary for the test?

---------- Post added at 01:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 PM ----------

what is the main purpose of domicial?


----------



## fatman17

what restricts the F-7PG from firing BVR AAM's. cant the radar/avionics be upgraded to fire BVR AAM's or is it not cost effective to do so?


----------



## ziaulislam

F-7 radar has an azimuth or search range of +/- 30 degree. so it can fire a BVR in this area only. This is only half as effcient as modern fighters who have a search range of atleast +/-60 degree or more.
so even though f-7pg can fire a bvr it is not as effcient , therefore its much better to equip thunders with BVR rather than f-7s and use them as point defense.


Problem lies in nose of f-7 due to air intake you cant place a large radar in there.


----------



## ziaulislam

the same is true for mig21, it also cant use the r-77 in all aspects due to similar limitations.


----------



## fatman17

*Shortage of air traffic controllers*


Our Staff Reporter

KARACHI: The International Federation of Air Traffic Controllers&#8217; Associations (IFATCA), referring to a shortage of air traffic controllers in Pakistan, has urged the Civil Aviation Authority to address the issue so that air safety is not compromised. 

According to sources, in a Feb 17, 2012 letter to the CAA, IFATCA chief Alexis Brathwaite says: &#8220;The IFACTA calls on the CAA to take immediate measures to address the shortage of skilled air traffic controllers in Pakistan and to prevent the ATC sectors from being operated without necessary safety margins.

&#8220;Air traffic control is a complex and demanding task and controllers bear a significant responsibility for the safety of the flying public. Pakistan&#8217;s air traffic controllers should be adequately recognised for the professional skills they display every day.&#8221;

The IFATCA further says: &#8220;The Pakistan Air Traffic Controllers Guild reports that there is a serious shortage of qualified controllers in Pakistan, among other consequences, this results in a lack of required refreshers training, necessary to maintain the highest professional standards.

&#8220;As air traffic control is a 24-hour operation, any shortage in staff is made up by current staff thereby restricting the leaves and as a consequence the ATCs become fatigued, which compromises their ability to provide a safe service.&#8221;


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

i have a few questions.

1. what will be the future air combat between two sheath fighters..bvr or wvr ?
some says it going to be bvr but others says it going to be wvr because bvr kill probability is very less, both being stealth will make each other detect very late etc.


----------



## killerx

when paksitan aiforce will bne getting J10B


----------



## Nishan_101

So is there any signs of Burraq???


----------



## razgriz19

when are we gonna invest in LONG RANGE SAMs??
This is the only sector where we are lacking severly..

we need to get something that can shoot down short range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles.


----------



## ridoking

razgriz19 said:


> when are we gonna invest in LONG RANGE SAMs??
> This is the only sector where we are lacking severly..
> 
> we need to get something that can shoot down short range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles.



u need something like HQ-9 AND HQ10

AND PAC-3 MORE SPECIALIZED IN BMD

BEST OF LUCK

ALLAH MA'KM​


----------



## Bratva

How does dog fighting done at night time and any history of PAF Dog fighting done at night time?


----------



## epinephrine

A PAF F104 shot down an indian air craft at night in 65 war.


----------



## Last Hope

mafiya said:


> How does dog fighting done at night time and any history of PAF Dog fighting done at night time?



I cannot talk about dog fight. Apparently someone answered your question.
But a F-16A did take down a Indian Navy drone over Northern Punjab, can't recall the place maybe Lahore, and that was a night time kill.

There have been night time Air-to-Air exercises too.


----------



## Bratva

Last Hope said:


> I cannot talk about dog fight. Apparently someone answered your question.
> But a F-16A did take down a Indian Navy drone over Northern Punjab, can't recall the place maybe Lahore, and that was a night time kill.
> 
> There have been night time Air-to-Air exercises too.



according to my logic, only radar and engine flame can guide you during nightime doghfight.


----------



## fatman17

Last Hope said:


> I cannot talk about dog fight. Apparently someone answered your question.
> But a F-16A did take down a Indian Navy drone over Northern Punjab, can't recall the place maybe Lahore, and that was a night time kill.
> 
> *There have been night time Air-to-Air exercises too*.



and kills in both 65 and 71 and during the afghan conflict

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## abdulbarijan

*Is there a way for an ordinary civilian like myself to visit PAC kamra??
*
eg If I was visitng for educational purposes????
Plz respond...
thanx


----------



## Jango

abdulbarijan said:


> *Is there a way for an ordinary civilian like myself to visit PAC kamra??
> *
> eg If I was visitng for educational purposes????
> Plz respond...
> thanx



School trips have gone there.

But they let you go only in specified areas, like the Mirage rebuild factory, F-7 area etc.

Not the top end stuff.

And only school trips, preferably APS or PAF schools.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## mosu

how many fighter jets required pakistan air-force to become world's best air force ?
which fighter jets and why ?


----------



## MastanKhan

laghari said:


> how many fighter jets required pakistan air-force to become world's best air force ?
> which fighter jets and why ?



Sir,

With this kind of question---I believe the ejector seat should automatically deploy.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Manticore

pakistan does not have aspirations of power projection and neither can we afford it-- you can check out wiki to see the qualitative and quatititative edge the americans have -- rest of the world is catching up as u.s does not share its top notch tech with other countries
Top Ten Nuclear Capable Air Forces Of The World part2 - YouTube

part2 of my video

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> With this kind of question---I believe the ejector seat should automatically deploy.



Hahahaha! Intriguing scenario. Actually, i wonder if we should have normal seats in life which eject you out of life, based on what you are saying.  I think i'll take it on as my final year Engineering project. I will keep you updated.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Dawn21

Can any body tell about the opportunity for females to join PAF as Air traffic controllers ATC ? what is the criteria & how to apply? I have not seen any advertisement like this. 

If one has already got training as ATC then is s/he eligible to join as ATC ? again how to join?


----------



## Najam Khan

Dawn21 said:


> Can any body tell about the opportunity for females to join PAF as Air traffic controllers ATC ? what is the criteria & how to apply? I have not seen any advertisement like this.
> 
> If one has already got training as ATC then is s/he eligible to join as ATC ? again how to join?


 
In PAF there isn't any specialized branch for ATC. Its the admin branch people which do work as ATC. ( I think all admin branch officers have to do 1yr in ATC.)..so look for advertisement of SSC in admin branch. Good luck!


----------



## Dawn21

Thankyou Najma Khan, I want to know where I can see such advertises and also what are prerqusites for joining administration branch of PAF via SSC? do they allow females to apply as well?


----------



## Farooqi1

Can anybody give me the logic that why can't we are going for twine engine fighter aircrafts other then being expensive and we don't have money? Also Russian President is going to visit Pakistan soon. Why can't we ask for some of their fighter aircrafts?


----------



## fatman17

Farooqi1 said:


> Can anybody give me the logic that why can't we are going for twine engine fighter aircrafts other then being expensive and we don't have money? Also Russian President is going to visit Pakistan soon. Why can't we ask for some of their fighter aircrafts?



Russia has a policy of not selling offensive weapons to PK bcuz of India.


----------



## Trailer23

Guys, i'm kinda new on this forum (as U may have noticed by the number of posts i've made).

I'm just curious *where* this pic was taken & *which* aircraft is it that our boys are inspecting?







Note: I wouldn't of asked knowing full well that there is probably a topic about it - somewhere. But just the thought of going through 200 something pages (on each topic) would be a killer.


----------



## alimobin memon

Trailer23 said:


> Guys, i'm kinda new on this forum (as U may have noticed by the number of posts i've made).
> 
> I'm just curious *where* this pic was taken & *which* aircraft is it that our boys are inspecting?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note: I wouldn't of asked knowing full well that there is probably a topic about it - somewhere. But just the thought of going through 200 something pages (on each topic) would be a killer.


This is Photoshop image not real... However there are rumours of diamond nose shape jf17 been in test


----------



## Trailer23

Okay, now I feel like a complete *** for asking such a question. I will say this that whoever did work on this pic, went through a lot of trouble with the deatils such as shadows & all...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Najam Khan

Trailer23 said:


> Okay, now I feel like a complete *** for asking such a question. I will say this that whoever did work on this pic, went through a lot of trouble with the deatils such as shadows & all...


Haha...trust me its fun going down that road. That "trouble" is paid off when such pictures raise viewers eyebrows

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hassan1

Two PAF Cessna 172M Skyhawk along with spares on &#8220;as is where is basis&#8221; are offered for sale by Pakistan's Directorate General Defence Purchase (DGDP)
Defence Export Promotion Organization

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

^^^^

i don't want to be a nag....certainly the enemy may or may not have ways to observe what you did; but best to be safe than sorry

i would advise you respectfully to plz remove this kind of information; best to leave it for 'private consumption' only

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Jango

Well, they were not really camouflaged or anything, neither placed in a secret corner.

I was on a commercial flight and saw them while in the plane and taxiing. They were right beside the runway.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

well im sure it was an interesting sight to see....was happy to see them inducted just a few years back

good system, for PAF's needs


----------



## Jango

I was really surprised to see them there, sitting right there, the radar moving 360, and the SAM's all positioned. 

I came to Isl about a week or so back, and at that time, I didn't spot them. Must be a new position.


----------



## razgriz19

nuclearpak said:


> I was really surprised to see them there, sitting right there, the radar moving 360, and the SAM's all positioned.
> 
> I came to Isl about a week or so back, and at that time, I didn't spot them. Must be a new position.



could u pls PM me the image, thanks!


----------



## MastanKhan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ^^^^
> 
> i don't want to be a nag....certainly the enemy may or may not have ways to observe what you did; but best to be safe than sorry
> 
> i would advise you respectfully to plz remove this kind of information; best to leave it for 'private consumption' only



Loose lips---sink ships---.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Jango

razgriz19 said:


> could u pls PM me the image, thanks!



No, i dont have any images.


----------



## VCheng

alimobin memon said:


> This is Photoshop image not real... However there are rumours of diamond nose shape jf17 been in test


 


Trailer23 said:


> Okay, now I feel like a complete *** for asking such a question. I will say this that whoever did work on this pic, went through a lot of trouble with the deatils such as shadows & all...


 


Najam Khan said:


> Haha...trust me its fun going down that road. That "trouble" is paid off when such pictures raise viewers eyebrows



The shadows of the two personnel on the flank do not correspond to the lighting around the intake, which is an easy giveaway.


----------



## Jango

MastanKhan said:


> Loose lips---sink ships---.



i don't see how i divulged any top secret info.

Some things placed beside the runway of a commercial airport, one on which Indian VIP flights also come do not constitute secret.

There is much more being divulged on this forum than this!


----------



## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

may be this question has already been asked but i just wanna know that , is there any aircraft in P.a.f. like the us. f-18 growler and\or wild weasel or any electronic warfare aircraft ??


----------



## hassan1

any information that why PAF induct the following aircraft for very short time.


Registration: AP-BJL 

Certificate of Airworthiness Number: 759 

Registration Date: 


Operator/Owner: Lynx Aviation 

Aircraft Type: British Aerospace BAe 125 Series 800A 

Construction Number: 258095 

Line Number: 

Year Built: 1987 

SelCal Code: 

First Flight: 

Test Flight Registration: 

Delivery Date: 

Aircraft Name: 

Previous Registration: ZS-OXY 

Previous Operator: 

Fate: 

Next Registration: 

Next Operator: 

Additional Remarks: Construction number 258095. Registered in United Kingdom (UK) as G-5-561 for test flight. Registered in United States of America (USA) as N534BA, Northern Holding Corporation, August 1987. Departed from Hatfield to USA, August 3, 1987. Registered in USA as N200LS, Northern Holding Corporation, November 1987. Registered in Canada as C-FPCP and operated by PanCanadian Petroleum Limited, July 25, 1989. Registered in Canada as C-GHXY and operated by PanCanadian Petroleum Limited, January 2, 2001. Registered in United States of America (USA) as N40255, Raytheon Aircraft Company (RAC), January 22, 2001. Specialized Aircraft Services, June 28, 2002. Registered in South Africa as ZS-OXY, National Airways Corporation (NAC), sales/distributor for Hawker Beechcraft Corporation, May 9, 2003. Registered in Pakistan as AP-BJL for Lynx Aviation, March 28, 2006. *Pakistan Air Force (PAF) serial J-795*, May 16, 2006. Registration AP-BJL removed from Pakistan Aircraft Register on August 20, 2007. Registered in South Africa as ZS-OXY, Nouvelle Air Affaires Gabon. Operated by SkyeInvest Administration, January 18, 2008.


----------



## krash

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;3240957 said:


> may be this question has already been asked but i just wanna know that , is there any aircraft in P.a.f. like the us. f-18 growler and\or wild weasel or any electronic warfare aircraft ??



You've already been answered.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-monthly-news-discussions-33.html#post3270876


----------



## razgriz19

hassan1 said:


> any information that why PAF induct the following aircraft for very short time.
> 
> 
> Registration: AP-BJL
> 
> Certificate of Airworthiness Number: 759
> 
> 
> 
> Registration Date:
> 
> 
> Operator/Owner: Lynx Aviation
> 
> Aircraft Type: British Aerospace BAe 125 Series 800A
> 
> Construction Number: 258095
> 
> Line Number:
> 
> Year Built: 1987
> 
> SelCal Code:
> 
> First Flight:
> 
> Test Flight Registration:
> 
> Delivery Date:
> 
> Aircraft Name:
> 
> Previous Registration: ZS-OXY
> 
> Previous Operator:
> 
> Fate:
> 
> Next Registration:
> 
> Next Operator:
> 
> Additional Remarks: Construction number 258095. Registered in United Kingdom (UK) as G-5-561 for test flight. Registered in United States of America (USA) as N534BA, Northern Holding Corporation, August 1987. Departed from Hatfield to USA, August 3, 1987. Registered in USA as N200LS, Northern Holding Corporation, November 1987. Registered in Canada as C-FPCP and operated by PanCanadian Petroleum Limited, July 25, 1989. Registered in Canada as C-GHXY and operated by PanCanadian Petroleum Limited, January 2, 2001. Registered in United States of America (USA) as N40255, Raytheon Aircraft Company (RAC), January 22, 2001. Specialized Aircraft Services, June 28, 2002. Registered in South Africa as ZS-OXY, National Airways Corporation (NAC), sales/distributor for Hawker Beechcraft Corporation, May 9, 2003. Registered in Pakistan as AP-BJL for Lynx Aviation, March 28, 2006. *Pakistan Air Force (PAF) serial J-795*, May 16, 2006. Registration AP-BJL removed from Pakistan Aircraft Register on August 20, 2007. Registered in South Africa as ZS-OXY, Nouvelle Air Affaires Gabon. Operated by SkyeInvest Administration, January 18, 2008.



PN operates the newer version these aircrafts. its just under different designation, its called Hawker 800xp.

here is a picture.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hassan1

sir gee yeh information Hawker 800 ki hai pakistan navy main hawker 850xp hain.pakistan air force main hawker 800 ka reg number J-795 hai .or navy ke 850xp ka reg 101 hai .
mera question yeh hai ke 800xp q induct kia Gia?


----------



## razgriz19

hassan1 said:


> sir gee yeh information Hawker 800 ki hai pakistan navy main hawker 850xp hain.pakistan air force main hawker 800 ka reg number J-795 hai .or navy ke 850xp ka reg 101 hai .
> mera question yeh hai ke 800xp q induct kia Gia?



Pakistan air force probably inducted hawker as a stop gap untill the G4 arrived.
jitne bhi VIP transport aircrafts hain woh sab air force operates karti hai, aur sare PAF base chaklala pe station hain.
to navy ne yeh jahaz khareede take woh PN chief ko ya phir aur koi high ranking official ko easily transport kar saken. without relying on air force to send a jet all the way from chaklala to karachi.


----------



## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> Pakistan air force probably inducted hawker as a stop gap untill the G4 arrived.
> jitne bhi VIP transport aircrafts hain woh sab air force operates karti hai, aur sare PAF base chaklala pe station hain.
> to navy ne yeh jahaz khareede take woh PN chief ko ya phir aur koi high ranking official ko easily transport kar saken. without relying on air force to send a jet all the way from chaklala to karachi.



the PN a/c is dual-purpose, EW and VIP. further 3 are reportedly to be inducted.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hassan1

pakistan Air Force PT-6 Primary Trainer (Very Rare)

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## fatman17

hassan1 said:


> pakistan Air Force PT-6 Primary Trainer (Very Rare)



many a/c platforms were 'loaned' for testing purposes. in the early 70's, 2 chinese IL-28's were loaned, designated B-58 in PK but were rejected. an Mi-26 heavy lift helo was also evaluated but it unfortunately crashed in the himalayas. PT-6's were also evaluated but PAF opted for the Saab Supporter (Mushshak).



fatman17 said:


> the PN a/c is dual-purpose, EW and VIP. further 3 are reportedly to be inducted.



ELINT not EW - my bad!


----------



## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> many a/c platforms were 'loaned' for testing purposes. in the early 70's, 2 chinese IL-28's were loaned, designated B-58 in PK but were rejected. *an Mi-26 heavy lift helo was also evaluated but it unfortunately crashed in the himalayas.* PT-6's were also evaluated but PAF opted for the Saab Supporter (Mushshak).



Can you please provide details on the bold part, in the Army Aviation thread perhaps?


----------



## SQ8

Last Hope said:


> Can you please provide details on the bold part, in the Army Aviation thread perhaps?


A little correction there on the typo by Fatman. 
The Chinese Il-28 which was the Harbin H-5 was designated the B-56 in PAF service.
A sole Mi-6 was sent to the PAF during Bhutto's re-engagement policy with the USSR after the 65 war..
It crashed while testing under the hot and humid conditions of the Himalayas range.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Jango



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 3030

The photo with Chinese trainer is of BAF not PAF, you dont have such palm trees at Risalpur.


----------



## turbo charged

do Paf pilots carry some sort of fire arms with them into the cockpit?...is it some handgun or a small mini machine gun like uzi,mp5 or a sawed off shot gun?

also do the pilots receive training in survival..if they have to eject in enemy territory?...is it close to SSG commando training?


----------



## alimobin memon

turbo charged said:


> do Paf pilots carry some sort of fire arms with them into the cockpit?...is it some handgun or a small mini machine gun like uzi,mp5 or a sawed off shot gun?
> 
> also do the pilots receive training in survival..if they have to eject in enemy territory?...is it close to SSG commando training?



Yes they do have atleast a pistol or mp5 smg .... Survival guides are given too plus a satellite phone to call for rescue but I dont know if PAF has satellite phones for pilots.


----------



## alimobin memon

turbo charged said:


> do Paf pilots carry some sort of fire arms with them into the cockpit?...is it some handgun or a small mini machine gun like uzi,mp5 or a sawed off shot gun?
> 
> also do the pilots receive training in survival..if they have to eject in enemy territory?...is it close to SSG commando training?



Yes they do have atleast a pistol or mp5 smg .... Survival guides are given too plus a satellite phone to call for rescue but I dont know if PAF has satellite phones for pilots.


----------



## Last Hope

turbo charged said:


> do Paf pilots carry some sort of fire arms with them into the cockpit?...is it some handgun or a small mini machine gun like uzi,mp5 or a sawed off shot gun?
> 
> also do the pilots receive training in survival..if they have to eject in enemy territory?...is it close to SSG commando training?



Yes. All PAF and AAC pilots carry Beretta/Glock with them. On some missions, the pilots carry SMGs like MP-5, FN-F2000 or FN-P90 in case they have to eject over enemy territory. 

And all officers go through survival training, although it's not SSG-training. They also go through ejection-training.


----------



## Jango

Look at the right thighs of the pilots.







The man in the centre is Maj Bari shaheed, in that Bell-412 crash in water.

usually, pilots from 404 group carry firearms, 202 no too much.


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Look at the right thighs of the pilots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The man in the centre is Maj Bari shaheed, in that Bell-412 crash in water.
> 
> usually, pilots from 404 group carry firearms, 202 no too much.


 
The pilots were Major Zahid Bari and Captain Ahmad.

He was not flying a Bell 412 but a Schweizer that crashed.


----------



## Jango

Last Hope said:


> The pilots were Major Zahid Bari and Captain Ahmad.
> 
> He was not flying a Bell 412 but a Schweizer that crashed.


 
Woops, yeah, schweizer. 

The thing to look at was the firearm as a member questioned.


----------



## Pak47

Can Jf-17/F-16 perform the Cobra Maneuver? 

I know its not that important in actual combat, but curiosity gets the best of you.


----------



## s1lencer

^^ nope , it will need TVC for that

its important in a2a combat , when the enemy is on your tail, u can do the cobra maneuver and after that the enemy will have you on his tail


----------



## Pak47

s1lencer said:


> ^^ nope , it will need TVC for that
> 
> its important in a2a combat , when the enemy is on your tail, u can do the cobra maneuver and after that the enemy will have you on his tail



Its a nice move.. especially to appeal the crowd. 
It can be countered if the pilot knows what he's doing. It's like any other move in dogfighting. 


i saw some footage of a J-10a doing something similar, and it doesn't have thrust vectoring..
Thats why i was curious, yeah i thought of the TVC engine.


----------



## s1lencer

Pak47 said:


> Its a nice move.. especially to appeal to the crowd.
> It can be countered if the pilot knows what he's doing. It's like any other move in dogfighting.
> 
> 
> i saw some footage of a J-10a doing something similar, and it doesn't have thrust vectoring..
> Thats why i was curious, yeah i thought of the TVC engine.


 
can u give the link of the video?


----------



## Pak47

s1lencer said:


> can u give the link of the video?


 
I been and still am searching

Also.. if a plane has a thrust to weight ratio of above 1..

It should be able to go straight up correct.. 

If so.. thats basically what thrust vectoring is.. but the tricky part is keeping the Jet at the same altitude while performing the maneuver.


----------



## s1lencer

Pak47 said:


> I been and still am searching
> 
> Also.. if a plane has a thrust to weight ratio of above 1..
> 
> It should be able to go straight up correct..
> 
> If so.. thats basically what thrust vectoring is.. but the tricky part is keeping the Jet at the same altitude while performing the maneuver.


 
i dont think the j10 has enough thrust to do that , i saw only dual engine planes with TVC do that


----------



## Pak47

s1lencer said:


> that maneuver must be done in the shortest amount of time in order to surprise the enemy, in order to achieve that precious time , the plane must have a high rate of climb ,and that is achieved by TC engines ,sure the maneuver can be done in other planes aswell but the cobra loop will be large because a non TVC engine will have less rate of climb


 
I can't find the video.. but it was something like this F-14 is doing.. it doesn't have the TVC engines either..






I have come to conclude the J10, and this F-14 is just going through stress tests on the airframe. Thats what i saw.. it looks very similar no doubt.

Cheers mate.




s1lencer said:


> i dont think the j10 has enough thrust to do that , i saw only dual engine planes with TVC do that


 
the F-14.. has a T/W ratio of below 1.


----------



## s1lencer

Pak47 said:


> I can't find the video.. but it was something like this F-14 is doing.. it doesn't have the TVC engines either..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have come to conclude the J10, and this F-14 is just going through stress tests on the airframe. Thats what i saw.. it looks very similar no doubt.
> 
> Cheers mate.


 

thats a cobra dude


----------



## Pak47

s1lencer said:


> thats a cobra dude


 
self delete.. miss understanding on my part xD

Yeah, it is

Notice it gains altitude while it performs the maneuver though.

Thats the difference of a jet performing this move compared to a jet with TVC engine.


----------



## s1lencer

Pak47 said:


> Lol, dude its not a cobra.. that is an F-14.. look at
> 
> 0:08.. the back of the jet..
> 
> and
> 
> 0:09.. it has the USAF logo on the jet.


 
i know its tomcat , see my previous post i said any plane can do cobra but the maneuver is effective if u do it in the shortest possible amount of time



Pak47 said:


> self delete.. miss understanding on my part xD
> 
> Yeah, it is
> 
> Notice it gains altitude while it performs the maneuver though.
> 
> Thats the difference of a jet performing this move compared to a jet with TVC engine.


 
i see :3


----------



## Pak47

s1lencer said:


> i know its tomcat , see my previous post i said any plane can do cobra but the maneuver is effective if u do it in the shortest possible amount of time


 
I read the posts.. since i posted the original question. 

Please.. show me where, because i don't see it.. unless you edit it now..


----------



## s1lencer

Pak47 said:


> I read the posts.. since i posted the original question.
> 
> Please.. show me where, because i don't see it.. unless you edit it now..


 
lol i edited it 

hold on ill give the cocept if i can find it on net



> Now learn how the thrust-vectoring nozzle is controlled?
> 
> Presumably, the nozzle sense is controlled by the avionics inside it, right? But it is the pilot who is given a direct feed on the nozzle angle? Because maneuvers like the Pugachev's Cobra supermaneuvers are too complex to fathom.
> 
> Pugachev's Cobra or dynamic braking is a maneuver in which within 3-4 seconds, the nose of the aircraft is pulled up to high angles of attack (80°-110°) and then returned to normal horizontal flight. This causes intensive loss of airspeed. You can execute this maneuver from level flight at various altitudes and at indicated airspeeds of 350-450 kilometers per hour.
> 
> In level flight at the appropriate entry speed of 350 to 450 km/h, disable the AOA limiter. Execute the cobra by pulling the stick fully aft. As the nose reaches the vertical (pointed straight up) allow the stick to go to neutral and let the nose fall back down to level flight. Smoothly increase thrust towards the end of the maneuver. The AOA limiter will automatically re-engage after executing the cobra.



source is Sukhoi Su-30 MKI - Purpose of Thrust Vectoring

it basically explains how the maneuver work, now if we do that in a non tvc engine aircraft, it will take more time for the aircraft to complete the maneuver


----------



## Pak47

s1lencer said:


> it basically explains how the maneuver work, now if we do that in a non tvc engine aircraft, it will take more time for the aircraft to complete the maneuver


 
I answered my question buddy, im not going to get in to much detail..
or
begin comparing jets Peace.. Good bye.


----------



## s1lencer

Pak47 said:


> I answered my question buddy, im not going to get in to much detail..
> or
> begin comparing jets Peace.. Good bye.


 
haha was not comparing jets , just giving the concept of tvc and the advantage it has over non tvc

well c ya


----------



## Windjammer

Guys, it's been discussed to the bone that albeit Cobra is a great crowd pleasure but in a shooting war it's execution can prove suicidal, doing the Cobra may force the chaser to overshoot but the hanging in the air out of power and energy, any one else out there with a decent missile round, and the Cobra jockey is a sitting Duck. !!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## alimobin memon

Windjammer said:


> Guys, it's been discussed to the bone that albeit Cobra is a great crowd pleasure but in a shooting war it's execution can prove suicidal, doing the Cobra may force the chaser to overshoot but the hanging in the air out of power and energy, any one else out there with a decent missile round, and the Cobra jockey is a sitting Duck. !!


 
Yes, Indeed with Off boresight atleast 40 degrees and HMS/D cobra is useless


----------



## Jango

Windjammer said:


> Guys, it's been discussed to the bone that albeit Cobra is a great crowd pleasure but in a shooting war it's execution can prove suicidal, doing the Cobra may force the chaser to overshoot but the hanging in the air out of power and energy, any one else out there with a decent missile round, and the Cobra jockey is a sitting Duck. !!


 
In a 1-v-1 though, it could prove useful IMO. You bleed your speed very quickly, and as you said, force the other guy to overshoot you and now you are on his tail.

But let's not forget, a Cobra is a difficult maneuver, requiring tremendous pilot skill and a good TVC and agile aircraft, and you have to be an expert to do it in a dogfight. So, most pilots wouldn't be doing it!


----------



## Pak47

Windjammer said:


> Guys, it's been discussed to the bone that albeit Cobra is a great crowd pleasure but in a shooting war it's execution can prove suicidal, doing the Cobra may force the chaser to overshoot but the hanging in the air out of power and energy, any one else out there with a decent missile round, and the Cobra jockey is a sitting Duck. !!



Bro, see my original post, i admitted right there.. the Cobra maneuver is not that important.. just curious.


----------



## fatman17

does anybody know if PAF is participating in Excercise Shaheen Star being held in the UAE during September-2012?


----------



## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> does anybody know if PAF is participating in Excercise Shaheen Star being held in the UAE during September-2012?



No sir, PAF is not going.
In fact i have heard about participation of only US, UK, UAE. Dont know much details.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rkevin

Who can tell me some companies or institutions that is in charge of aircraft maintainance specially for Chinese aircraft?

Long-term Friendship between China and Pakistan!


----------



## Windjammer

rkevin said:


> Who can tell me some companies or institutions that is in charge of aircraft maintainance specially for Chinese aircraft?
> 
> Long-term Friendship between China and Pakistan!



My friend you should first introduce your self in the members introduction section.
To answer your query, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and it's subsidiaries are in charge of maintaining all the aircraft as well as production of JF-17 Thunder.


----------



## Gul Mushtaq

i have some most important questions about to be selected in PAF as a GD P . Sir firstly i want to introduce me , My name is M. Gul Mushtaq and I am from Karachi and I have passed my Matric with A-one grade. I am so much excited to be selected but for that I have to pass ISSB tests and I got good height and also good eye sights 6/6 and also i hae good physical stamina for passing physical test but problem is in medical test . Sir I am confused about my penis and its testicles , actually Sir my penis is curved to left hand side and my one testicle is like hanging freely and one is fine so what is it , will it count at medical?


----------



## PiyaraPakistan

Very ---exy query i have ever seen in this forum.
Dear Brother I think it is not the right forum to discuss such things, Tilted ---is very common in new generation (thanks to our advance media) medically it&#8217;s not a disease to disqualify, you can discuss it with Honorable X or in-service Air force members in " Discussions" for further guidance. For your own satisfaction please visit some medical websites. 

Regards
PiyaraPakistan


----------



## Manticore

Gul Mushtaq said:


> i have some most important questions about to be selected in PAF as a GD P . Sir firstly i want to introduce me , My name is M. Gul Mushtaq and I am from Karachi and I have passed my Matric with A-one grade. I am so much excited to be selected but for that I have to pass ISSB tests and I got good height and also good eye sights 6/6 and also i hae good physical stamina for passing physical test but problem is in medical test . Sir I am confused about my penis and its testicles , actually Sir my penis is curved to left hand side and my one testicle is like hanging freely and one is fine so what is it , will it count at medical?



naturally , one testicle hangs lower than the other - the tilted shaft is due to wearing undergarments & is also natural these days

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


> naturally , one testicle hangs lower than the other - the tilted shaft is due to wearing undergarments & is also natural these days



You are a doctor if I am not mistaken, right?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Thorough Pro

Gul Mushtaq said:


> i have some most important questions about to be selected in PAF as a GD P . Sir firstly i want to introduce me , My name is M. Gul Mushtaq and I am from Karachi and I have passed my Matric with A-one grade. I am so much excited to be selected but for that I have to pass ISSB tests and I got good height and also good eye sights 6/6 and also i hae good physical stamina for passing physical test but problem is in medical test . Sir I am confused about my penis and its testicles , actually Sir my penis is curved to left hand side and my one testicle is like hanging freely and one is fine so what is it , will it count at medical?



Please edit your post, remove the details and go see some doctor. No need to discuss your condition on a public forum.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

Gul Mushtaq said:


> i have some most important questions about to be selected in PAF as a GD P . Sir firstly i want to introduce me , My name is M. Gul Mushtaq and I am from Karachi and I have passed my Matric with A-one grade. I am so much excited to be selected but for that I have to pass ISSB tests and I got good height and also good eye sights 6/6 and also i hae good physical stamina for passing physical test but problem is in medical test . Sir I am confused about my penis and its testicles , actually Sir my penis is curved to left hand side and my one testicle is like hanging freely and one is fine so what is it , will it count at medical?



go see a doctor


----------



## mosu

i am a doctor and what ANTIBODY tells him thats 100% right


----------



## Jango

What is the status of the base at Murid? Is it operational, semi-operational, or just lying there as a standby?


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> What is the status of the base at Murid? Is it operational, semi-operational, or just lying there as a standby?



PAF Base Murid is a FOB (Front-line Operational Base) kept as standby. For now, it's semi-operational with squadron of UAV which are actively participating in Waziristan. These UAV are owned by PAF which are recently acquired from China.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Jango

There were A-5's there in 2010 if i remember correctly. They have been replaced with UAV's it seems then.

An Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed near PAF Mureed base ....

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-n...y-2012/paf-falco-i-surveillance-drone-crashes

Google Earth also shows a UAV in the base.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hassan1



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Jango

Didn't know where to put this picture, so here it goes!







Those white hangars were constructed around 2011-2012, so possibly for ZDK-03?

http://www.airliners.net/photo//2099296/L/


----------



## Jango

This is a Dutch airbase.






Similarly, all other airbases are masked like this, or pixelated at a certain height. French, Israeli even Japanese airbases are also pixelated or masked.

My question is, why does not PAF do it? , especially considering that 2 attacks have happened at the airbases, and the terrorists can have easy recce of the airbase through GE, and in most cases, even know which planes are where.

What are the difficulties in doing it, monetary issues, political issues? I read somewhere that Japan requested GE to pixelate it's military installation, so do you have to just make a request?


----------



## Windjammer

And in some cases, you can even see planes taking off.


----------



## Death Rattle

Windjammer said:


> And in some cases, you can even see planes taking off.


But still your not our air bases got attacked twice.


----------



## Windjammer

Death Rattle said:


> But still your not our air bases got attacked twice.



No, they got attacked dozens of times from the air. !!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Death Rattle

Windjammer said:


> No, they got attacked dozens of times from the air. !!


But still a quarter of attacks on PAF bases from air.


----------



## Jango

There are also planes taking off from Mianwali, but that is not my point.

My point is that we should request GE to mask our bases, because of obvious security concerns. 

Getting a detailed picture of the airbase through GE is very much possible, and I wouldn't be surprised if it has been already done.


----------



## Yashkun

why pakistan doesn't buy f-22? Should/can pakistan buy f-22/f-35 from UsA in the future?


----------



## Jango

Yashkun said:


> why pakistan doesn't buy f-22? Should/can pakistan buy f-22/f-35 from UsA in the future?



Yeah of course we can buy it!!! 

F-22, coming to the novelty store near your house shortly!!!


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> This is a Dutch airbase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Similarly, all other airbases are masked like this, or pixelated at a certain height. French, Israeli even Japanese airbases are also pixelated or masked.
> 
> My question is, why does not PAF do it? , especially considering that 2 attacks have happened at the airbases, and the terrorists can have easy recce of the airbase through GE, and in most cases, even know which planes are where.
> 
> What are the difficulties in doing it, monetary issues, political issues? I read somewhere that Japan requested GE to pixelate it's military installation, so do you have to just make a request?



I second you over here. Although it would not end the terrorist activities, it will reduce them to minimal level. The Saudi authorities had earlier censored their military and civil airports, but now they're open. All military establishments must be censored for public use.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## vor033

Hi All,

I wonder if anyone can answer my questions (and sorry if its already been answered elsewhere) I served in the British Royal Air Force Regiment for a number of years and wondered if the Pakistan Air Force had anything similar ? ie a unit that undertakes Ground Defence and low level Air Defence of Air Bases or forward deployed Air Force units ??

Thanks for any help.


----------



## Last Hope

vor033 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I wonder if anyone can answer my questions (and sorry if its already been answered elsewhere) I served in the British Royal Air Force Regiment for a number of years and wondered if the Pakistan Air Force had anything similar ? ie a unit that undertakes Ground Defence and low level Air Defence of Air Bases or forward deployed Air Force units ??
> 
> Thanks for any help.



Yes there are....


----------



## zon95

Hi guys, please help me distinguish the difference between the aircraft.

Multi-role combat aircraft vs. Fighter Aircraft vs. Fighter Attack vs. Fighter Bomber vs. Strike Fighter vs. Air Superiority

In my mind Su-27, F-16, MiG-29, Rafale, EF-2000, J-10, J-11 & JF-17 are the fighter aircraft or multi-role combat aircraft. I understand that the F-14D, F-15E and F-35 all three are Strike Fighter, the Su-34 (or similar Su-24, JH-7, F-4, F-105 & Tornado IDS) is a fighter bomber, F/A-18 is a fighter attack role. And eventually Su-35, T-50 and F-22 are air superiority.

They are similar to each other, they work with air-to-air, surface attack and interdiction

*I do not see the difference between them *!!!!!


----------



## fatman17

vor033 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I wonder if anyone can answer my questions (and sorry if its already been answered elsewhere) I served in the British Royal Air Force Regiment for a number of years and wondered if the Pakistan Air Force had anything similar ? ie a unit that undertakes Ground Defence and low level Air Defence of Air Bases or forward deployed Air Force units ??
> 
> Thanks for any help.



PAF employs base air-defence units. they are listed as squadrons eg; 84 Crotale Squadron etc. perimeter defence is leased to the PA.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Luftwaffe

vietminh said:


> Hi guys, please help me distinguish the difference between the aircraft.
> 
> Multi-role combat aircraft vs. Fighter Aircraft vs. Fighter Attack vs. Fighter Bomber vs. Strike Fighter vs. Air Superiority




You can always Google...

Multirole combat aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fighter aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fighter-bomber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Strike fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Air superiority fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Najam Khan

vor033 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I wonder if anyone can answer my questions (and sorry if its already been answered elsewhere) I served in the British Royal Air Force Regiment for a number of years and wondered if the Pakistan Air Force had anything similar ? ie a unit that undertakes Ground Defence and low level Air Defence of Air Bases or forward deployed Air Force units ??
> 
> Thanks for any help.



There are Ground Combatier (GC) in PAF, which are airmen tasked with role of bases security and ground role in war (If required). GC go through very hard training (including weapons training) just like soldiers of army or navy. They used to be in small number in the past, but after attacks on military installations and airbases GC induction has increased rapidly in PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## intelaadil@gmail.com

Can anyone know about the materials used in armouring of different equipment in JF-17 thunder.


----------



## vor033

Thank you Last Hope,Fatman17 and Najam Khan for your answers, they are much appreciated.


----------



## hassan1



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hassan1



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hassan1



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hassan1




----------



## hassan1




----------



## hassan1




----------



## hassan1




----------



## hassan1



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hassan1




----------



## hassan1




----------



## hassan1



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hassan1



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hassan1



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hassan1




----------



## hassan1



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## krash

Im sorry but I just couldn't figure out where to post this question. Anyway, the F-22 uses a combo of its rudders (out), flaps (down) and ailerons (up) as airbrakes. Now does that not hinder the pilots control over the bird while deploying them?


----------



## Najam Khan

krash said:


> Im sorry but I just couldn't figure out where to post this question. Anyway, the F-22 uses a combo of its rudders (out), flaps (down) and ailerons (up) as airbrakes. Now does that not hinder the pilots control over the bird while deploying them?



No, it doesn't. Pilots are trained to think and manage things using different approaches. In any fighter aircraft the purpose is to control the air speed that can be done using a combination of aileron/flaperons, rudder and horizontal stabilizers. Inside aircraft secondary flight control system manages the control of lift and drag( and primary FCS manages steering (pitch, roll and yaw). 

Regarding F-22, it has no dedicated speed brakes it employs 'split' rudders as virtual air brakes, which interestingly work more effectively than air brakes. Both rudders are independent are generate fair amount of drag which generates very effective stopping power. Now you must be thinking why the don't used 

conventional air brakes in F-22? The answer is that they reduced weight of aircraft by handling things 'virtually'...also by giving more command to aircraft's computer.

Very useful discussion on F-22's rudders.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-13293.html

F-22 FLIGHT TEST PROGRAM UPDATE by Lt Col Steven M. Rainey, USAF (M), F-22 Operations Officer


> *The F-22 has no dedicated speed brake surfaces, but uses the standard flight control surfaces for the speed brake function.* In the CRUISE configuration, the ailerons deflect up, flaperons down, and rudders deflect out or the "barn door" mode. This is very effective in slowing the aircraft. In comparison, the F-22 and F-15 in side-by-side formation both deployed their speed brakes and the F-15 wound up in front.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

Just wondering, the newly acquired "Aircraft carrier killer" missile, the CM-400 AKG, has a reported range of between 100-250 KMs.
Since this weapon is to be launched from the JF-17, does the aircraft has a radar which can detect and lock it's target at this distance. ?? Thanks.


----------



## rockstarIN

Windjammer said:


> Just wondering, the newly acquired "Aircraft carrier killer" missile, the CM-400 AKG, has a reported range of between 100-250 KMs.
> Since this weapon is to be launched from the JF-17, does the aircraft has a radar which can detect and lock it's target at this distance. ?? Thanks.



Good question, I believe the look-down mode of any radar will be less than their a2a mode.


----------



## Pakistanisage

Muradk said:


> The F-5s has a funny story behind it.
> Flt Lt Naeem took off and after about 2 min we see the OC flying running towards the Flight ops.
> "So what happend Sir" "Tell that ediot to land the dame plane it does not have an ejection system installed in it we just found out they just told us a few min ago".  so actualy flytime of F-5 over a PAF base is 4 min. appox.






Sir that is a hilarious story. So the Naeem sir was sitting on a seat that did not have an ejection system ?

How funny is that ?

I guess they must have told him after he landed, lol....

Sir, tell them that story when Wing Commander Randhawa was training a student pilot on a T-6 which went into a spin and he could not recover soon enough so he told his student to bail out and he bailed out. The student didn't bail out and recovered the aircraft from the spin and came back and landed.

Of course we know that when Randhawa sahib who was a tall and hefty fellow bailed out it moved the CG and the aircraft recovered from spin easily, but it did cause an embarrassment to a red faced Instructor, lol.....

I always wanted to find out if that story was true ?

Can your confirm the veracity of that story, Sir ?


----------



## Pakistanisage

hassan1 said:


>







This is NOSTALGIC. A lot of teenage memories attached to this aircraft. I was 17 when I first sat and flew in a T-6 with a Flight Instructor in December of 1969. Beautiful memories. Thanks for sharing my friend.

Reactions: Like Like:
 1


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

The Sabre @ Fortress Stadium (Lahore)....one of my personal favourite displays, don't know why.








and of course F-6 @ China Chowk







every display, whether ancient vintage or 1960s vintage always brings me great joy. 


PAF Zindabad

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Muradk said:


> The F-5s has a funny story behind it.
> Flt Lt Naeem took off and after about 2 min we see the OC flying running towards the Flight ops.
> "So what happend Sir" "Tell that ediot to land the dame plane it does not have an ejection system installed in it we just found out they just told us a few min ago".  so actualy flytime of F-5 over a PAF base is 4 min. appox.



I wish we could devote a thread just to some of your great experiences, stories (sad, suspenseful or funny, etc.) during your time in the service.

Bless you Sir, Allah give you long life and happiness. Thank you for your service to the nation.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Jango

Seen this video a fair few times.

So, what is the background of this, and the story? Pilot, squadron, nature of fault etc etc? To me, it looks like a partial/full loss of power, and maybe the FCS being problematic.

The ejection looked a bit too early IMO.

Any comments?

I searched the forum and the net a bit, but nothing.


----------



## Pakistanisage

nuclearpak said:


> Seen this video a fair few times.
> 
> So, what is the background of this, and the story? Pilot, squadron, nature of fault etc etc? To me, it looks like a partial/full loss of power, and maybe the FCS being problematic.
> 
> *The ejection looked a bit too early IMO.
> 
> Any comments?*
> I searched the forum and the net a bit, but nothing.





*Are you kidding me ? This is a low level ejection right after Take-off which is considered the most critical Emergency because the aircraft is at low altitude with very slow airspeed.

By my estimate it looks like the Pilot ejected at 200 Ft.

Any later and he may not have deployed the Parachute ?

Also it causes a concern that someone was filming this ?
@Muradk, any comments, Sir ?*


----------



## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Seen this video a fair few times.
> 
> So, what is the background of this, and the story? Pilot, squadron, nature of fault etc etc? To me, it looks like a partial/full loss of power, and maybe the FCS being problematic.
> 
> The ejection looked a bit too early IMO.
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> I searched the forum and the net a bit, but nothing.



Bird strike soon after take off.....number 2 realised the emergency and can be seen pulling away from the stricken aircraft.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Seen this video a fair few times.
> 
> So, what is the background of this, and the story? Pilot, squadron, nature of fault etc etc? To me, it looks like a partial/full loss of power, and maybe the FCS being problematic.
> 
> The ejection looked a bit too early IMO.
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> I searched the forum and the net a bit, but nothing.



It was a bird hit, the pilot survived.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Pakistanisage said:


> *Are you kidding me ? This is a low level ejection right after Take-off which is considered the most critical Emergency because the aircraft is at low altitude with very slow airspeed.
> 
> By my estimate it looks like the Pilot ejected at 200 Ft.
> 
> Any later and he may not have deployed the Parachute ?
> 
> Also it causes a concern that someone was filming this ?
> @Muradk, any comments, Sir ?*



it was being filmed for a Music video, the camera crew was there just on one of those occasions.
I saw this the week it happened as I know a pilot who was in that sq.

You can hear some smart-alec making the comment about "rang de Basanti"

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Jango

Thank you all for your replies!


----------



## fatman17

*Tooling up: Chinese weaponeers make their mark*.


Last posted:
2012-Nov-29


UAV weapons out in the open
Air weapon powerhouse
SAM array

The evidence of Airshow China 2012, held in Zhuhai from 13-18 November, is that China's guided weapon sector is growing exponentially, with an unprecedented number of new, sometimes overlapping, programmes. Robert Hewson reports 

Although chiefly an aerospace event, Airshow China is increasingly home to a land and maritime systems component and this year's event brought together an impressive array of new weapons for all three domains. 

A quick analysis shows that more than a dozen new weapons, never before seen in public, appeared at this year's event - along with many improvements to existing products. This underlines the ever-growing capabilities of China's weapon makers and the ever-increasing product range that China now offers for export. 

There were several notable firsts among the air weapon exhibits, including China's first dedicated anti-radiation defence suppression weapons; its first very-high-speed (Mach 4+) weapons; long-range gliding dispenser weapons; specialist penetrator weapons for hardened target attacks; laser-guided rockets; and a fuel-air explosive (FAE) bomb. Continuing progress could be seen in the development of small weapons both for unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and for internal carriage on China's future fighters. There were also new air-launched derivatives of missiles previously seen only in the surface-to-surface role - and even new surface-to-air versions of current air-to-air missiles. 

The expanded range of air-defence products at Zhuhai - as with all other exhibits, all available for export - was very obvious. Several previously unknown mobile multi-weapon/multi-sensor ground-based air-defence systems were on show, alongside fully functional hardware for large systems such as the FD-2000 (export designation HQ-9) and LY-80 (export designation HQ-16). 

The CASIC LY-80 (export designation for China's HQ-16 SAM) was prominently displayed at Airshow China alongside the longer-range FD-2000 (HQ-9) system. (Robert Hewson) China is also offering an increasing number of precision-guided surface-to-surface weapons and Airshow China 2012 saw the first public appearances of the CM-501G and WS-33 truck-launched medium-range missiles, plus the latest WS-22 and WS-32 variants of the WS-2 multiple rocket launcher family. 

There were strong appearances from Chinese weapon makers that had not previously attended the show. This included Norinco (the China North Industries Corporation), whose Harbin Jiancheng Group subsidiary showed eight air-launched weapons (seven of which had not been exhibited before). Also making its debut was the China South Industries Group Corporation (CSG), which brought a collection of bombs, including the CS/BBF1 FAE bomb, plus a dispenser weapon - all newly revealed in public. Better known as an automobile manufacturer (it has joint ventures with Ford, Suzuki, and Volvo among others), CSG displayed an entire hall full of combat vehicles, including armoured transports, air defence and radar systems, UAV launch-and-control vehicles, all-terrain vehicles and even a mine-resistant ambush-protected (MRAP) vehicle. This was the first time such a concentration of land systems had been brought to Airshow China (there were many other military vehicles from other manufacturers also), underlining the fact that the event has become a major showcase for China's defence industry as a whole. 

Air weapon revelations

The appearance of a new air-launched anti-radiation missile (ARM) was a significant development at the show. The weapon, the LD-10, is being promoted for export by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) and is a product of the Luoyang Optoelectro Technology Development Centre (LOEC). The missile, which is closely based on LOEC's SD-10 (PL-12) air-to-air missile (AAM), is the first dedicated ARM to be observed in China. LOEC officials told stated that the LD-10 is already in production for an (unnamed) export customer. 

LOEC's LD-10 is the first dedicated anti-radiation missile to be seen emerging from China and is likely to be part of the export weapon set for the JF-17 Thunder lightweight fighter. (Robert Hewson) AVIC data identifies the PAC/AVIC JF-17 Thunder (FC-1) as the "typical carrier aircraft" for the LD-10. This points directly to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) as the customer for the missile. A senior PAF officer noted at the show that the Brazilian-built Mectron MAR-1 ARM is already integrated and operational with the JF-17 but suggested that it was preferable to have "options" when it came to future JF-17 exports. LOEC officials also acknowledged the status of the MAR-1 on the JF-17 but added that the LD-10 was a lighter, more modern weapon that offered greater effective range (quoted as 60 km).* JF-17 programme officials added that the aircraft is close to winning new orders outside Pakistan*. 

LOEC representatives would not be drawn on where the seeker technology for the LD-10 was developed. The company already has some experience in anti-radiation systems and has incorporated a passive homing mode in the SD-10 AAM. However, the seeker for that missile was developed with Russian input and well-placed Russian sources suggest that the Omsk-based Avtomatika concern, which specialises in air-to-surface anti-radiation seekers, may have assisted with the LD-10. 

An anti-radiation seeker is also being offered by the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC) for its new FT-6A extended-range glide bomb. The FT-6 is a 250 kg-class weapon that mates a Mk 82-type bomb body with a wing kit that delivers a glide range of 60 km. The latest FT-6A incorporates an anti-radiation seeker that allows the weapon to directly target air-defence systems, and mobile systems in particular. CASC has developed additional new terminal seeker options for the GPS/INS-guided FT bomb family and showed an improved FT-3A weapon fitted with a TV/imaging infrared seeker. According to CASC, the bomb's accuracy has been improved from a circular error probable (CEP) of about 20 m to less than 3 m with the new seeker. 

CASC has significantly improved the accuracy of its Fei Teng series INS/GPS-guided bombs by adding new terminal seekers to the weapons. The newly modified FT-3A and FT-6A are seen here in front of other members of the FT family. (Robert Hewson) Norinco and CSG both exhibited new stand-off dispenser weapons in the class of the US AGM-154 Joint Stand-Off Weapon. The two Chinese weapons are remarkably similar in appearance and performance and may well have been developed to meet a competitive export requirement. Norinco's Tianlei (Sky Thunder) has a gliding range of more than 80 km. It weighs 680 kg and can deliver a mix of submunition types. Company officials said that 12 anti-runway penetrating bomblets can be carried for an airfield attack, but up to 100 anti-personnel bomblets could be loaded for an area attack mission. The Tianlei is certain to have an inertial navigation system fitted, but a receiver antenna on the nose also points to an additional satellite guidance capability. 
CSG has adopted complex (and opaque) designations for its new air-launched systems, referring to its new gliding dispenser as the CS/BBC5. This is a 500 kg-class stand-off weapon designed to deliver several payload options over long ranges and at low cost. CSG provided almost no information on this, or any of its products, but noted that the CS/BBC5 is intended for all-weather use over distances that allow the launch aircraft to avoid hostile air defences. Two satellite receiver antennas mounted on top of the airframe indicate that the CS/BBC5 uses a GPS-aided inertial navigation system. CSG said that a submunition payload or a unitary warhead can be carried. 

The new Tiange guided-bomb series from Norinco includes the 250 kg TG250-ER weapon with wing kit (front), the 'baby' 100 kg TG100 (behind) and the 500 kg TG500 (rear). The weapon at the back of this display is the Tiangang 500 kg extended-range glide bomb. (Robert Hewson) Alongside the Tianlei, Norinco/Harbin Jiancheng exhibited new precision-guided munitions (PGMs) ranging from 100 kg to 1,000 kg (the TG100, TG250, TG250-ER, TG500 and TG1000). The Tiange PGM family (named after an ancient Chinese weapon resembling a pike; Tiange roughly translates as 'Sky Spear') breaks down along three distinct lines. Within these divisions the weapons exhibit cues from various US and Russian guided-bomb designs, but all in distinctly Chinese final form. The Tiange bombs are mostly dual-mode weapons with GPS/INS guidance and semi-active laser homing in the terminal phase. Only the 500 kg TG500 stands apart as a single-mode (laser-guided) bomb. As the largest weapon, the 1,050 kg TG1000 is perhaps the most important as it is a specialist penetrator. It closely resembles the US GBU-28 Paveway III design (although it is less than half the weight) and Norinco says it is capable of penetrating more than 2.4 m of concrete reinforced to a strength of 35 MPa. The TG1000 is claimed to be accurate to within 3 m over a maximum range of about 20 km. However, company officials noted that it had not yet undergone airborne drop tests. 

The largest member of the Tiange guided-bomb series is the TG1000: a dual-mode guided specialist penetrator weapon. (Robert Hewson) At the other end of the scale is the 130 kg TG100, which appears to have the same Paveway III genes as the TG1000 and resembles a GBU-22 in many ways. It has been developed to equip UAVs, armed trainers and light combat aircraft and was one of several new small weapons to be found at Zhuhai. 

UAV weapons out in the open

Alongside the first true example of an operational, armed Chinese UAV (the AVIC Chengdu Wing Loong) at Airshow China were four different tailored lightweight weapons. On its underwing hardpoints the UAV carried a pair of Norinco HJ-10 (KD-10) air-to-surface anti-armour missiles identified on this occasion with their export designation Blue Arrow 7. The Hellfire-class HJ-10 has already been extensively trialled with the Wing Loong and this particular aircraft was painted with 15 'missile shot' silhouettes. 

The AVIC Wing Loong (flying dragon) UAV made its Airshow China debut this year as a real piece of hardware. The array of weapons around it showed that China's designers have been working had to give it operational combat capabilities. (Robert Hewson) The LOEC LS-6-50 small-diameter bomb was displayed with the Wing Loong: the first time this weapon has been expressly associated with a UAV. Elsewhere at the show LOEC exhibited the separate semi-active laser and electro-optical seekers for the 50 kg-class LS-6-50 and the 100 kg-class LS-6-100. 

Two recently developed small weapons from CASIC (China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation) were also arranged alongside the Wing Loong. The YZ-200 is described by CASIC as a precision-guided bomb for UAVs, helicopters, and fighter aircraft. While CASIC did not identify the guidance type used, the display article was identified as a laser-guided bomb. A CASIC YZ-100 anti-personnel bomb was also on show. 

In the exhibition halls a model of the CASIC CM-502KG air-to-surface missile was displayed carried by a model of CASIC's high-speed WJ-600 UAV. A similar configuration was present at Airshow China 2010, but the weapon was not identified on that occasion. Now CASIC notes that the CM-502KG is a lightweight missile with a 25 km range and an 11 kg warhead optimised for precise strikes against targets on land or at sea. 

CASIC displayed this illustration of its CM-502KG glide bomb, which bears more than a little resemblance to the Boeing GBU-39 SDB I. (Robert Hewson) Another contender in the small precision weapon arena could be glimpsed at Norinco, where Harbin Jiancheng displayed a range of 90 mm airborne rockets designated Tianjian (Sky Arrow). Company data says that a guidance option is available and a brochure illustration depicts what appears to be a laser-guided rocket: the first time such a system has been observed in China. 

Air weapon powerhouse

There was an avalanche of new weapon programmes in evidence at Airshow China and, while it is not possible to assess the real status of many of these, experience shows that most of what first appears at Zhuhai ends up as real hardware. In many cases, some of what is presented as 'brochure-ware' in public is already hardware, as evidenced by the appearance this year of AVIC's 'conceptual fighter' model (the real-world Shenyang J-31) and illustrations of the CASIC CM-400AKG very-high-speed missile - which was later confirmed to already be in PAF service. 

CASIC continued to tease observers at the event with glimpses of several significant new weapons. These included the CM-506KG: seemingly a close copy of the US GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb. Illustrations show a compact precision-guided glide bomb in the 150 kg class fitted with a DiamondBack-type folding wing that gives a claimed range of 130 km. The baseline weapon has GPS/INS guidance, but this can be augmented with additional terminal seekers. 

The radar-guided CASIC C-705 anti-ship missile, meanwhile, has been transformed into a multipurpose air-launched weapon. The new C-705KD is turbojet-powered weapon with a range of 140 km. It is fitted with a TV/imaging infrared seeker and datalink for precision attack, with man-in-the-loop control. A new warhead and fuze can also be fitted. 

The C-602 anti-ship missile has also evolved into the CM-602G land-attack weapon, which can be fired from a three-tube mobile truck launcher as well as from ships. The missile has a 290 km range with a 480 kg penetrating blast/fragmentation warhead. The CM-602G has a baseline GPS/INS guidance fit that can be augmented to provide man-in-the-loop control, according to CASIC. 

SAM array

An array of new ground-based air-defence systems (GBADS) were also on display in Zhuhai, with a clear trend towards mobile, multipurpose systems with a combination of gun and missile armament. 

CASIC showed its KS-1000 short- to medium-range SAM, part of the new FK-1000 mobile system. The KS-1000 bears a strong resemblance to the KBP 9M311 missile that equips several Russian air-defence systems, while the FK-1000 itself has adopted a configuration not unlike KBP's Pantsir-S1 truck-mounted mobile gun/missile system. 

According to CASIC, the FK-1000 is an all-weather mid- to low-altitude air-defence system with a combined gun/missile armament in an integrated combat vehicle capable of conducting independent acquisition, tracking and engagement of multiple targets. The system is designed for battlefield air defence against fixed-wing aircraft, helicopters, UAVs, and cruise missiles. 

Also to hand was a new evolution of the CASIC FL-2000 mobile short-range air-defence system: the FL-2000C. This is a 4x4 truck-mounted system that is larger and more capable than the various FL-2000 systems seen to date (of which there are at least three). The FL-2000C has a combined radar and electro-optical target detection and tracking system and is armed with two pods of a new type of infrared (IR)-guided SAM. CASIC does not identify this weapon but notes that it has a 90 mm diameter. Elsewhere a new type of staring IR seeker designated the FB-10 was displayed by CASIC and this is almost certainly linked with the FL-2000C. 

The CASIC FL-2000C is the latest evolution in the FL-2000 series of mobile air-defence systems. It has adopted a new IR-guided missile that is significantly larger than the MANPADS-type missiles used previously. (Robert Hewson) Export versions of CASIC's heavy mobile SAM systems - the FD-2000 (HQ-9) and LY-80 (HQ-16) - were shown at Zhuhai along with their missiles and associated radar vehicles. Hardware for these systems had not been displayed previously at Airshow China. 

Under the AVIC banner, LOEC revealed a surface-to-air version of its SD-10A air-to-air missile (AAM) that is very different to earlier proposals for a ground-based SD-10. This surface-launched SD-10A is extensively modified to combine the forward section of the AAM with an entirely new mid- and rear section. The revised missile is now 5.054 m long but retains the same fuselage diameter as the AAM. Four new centrebody strakes are attached to the airframe, which also has significantly enlarged tail fins to provide the enhanced manoeuvring control the SAM demands. AVIC says the SD-10A SAM has an effective range of 50 km and an operating altitude of 30 m to 20,000 m. 

Robert Hewson is editor of IHS Weapons: Air-Launched, based in London 

Related Articles 
CM-400AKG becomes Pakistan's carrier killer.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Najam Khan

In couple of years LD-10 and CM-400 will be available for JF-17 and export. These two have came out as good weapons from Zhuhai 2012, but I believe PAF should now move on to enhancing its air defence and network-centric capabilities, mobile systems like FK-1000/FL-2000 should be procured till 2016/17.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## mirza555

what is the actual motto of paf???plz tell me accurate sentence


----------



## Windjammer

Pakistan Air Force Motto (Persian): Sahrast ke daryast tah-e-bal-o-par-e-mast (English translation: "Lord of all I survey")


----------



## VCheng

Windjammer said:


> Pakistan Air Force Motto (Persian): Sahrast ke daryast tah-e-bal-o-par-e-mast (English translation: "Lord of all I survey")



English Translation: Be it desert or river, all are under my wings.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Saquib

VCheng said:


> English Translation: Be it desert or river, all are under my wings.




Or put in another way: With Limited resources I can still kick ***! With apologies to PAF

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bratva

If an aircraft is to go into air with 1 drop tank and full weapons load, they say yo keep the fuel minimum so an aircraft can takeoff easily and then refuel the plan in mid air, but i don't understand with full weapons load and full refuel load isn't aircraft going to face problems w.r.t such excess loads or will these excess load will restrict aircraft maneuverability greatly and causes jitteriness or would aircraft has to burn it's afterburners to remain afloat with such loads?


----------



## Last Hope

mafiya said:


> If an aircraft is to go into air with 1 drop tank and full weapons load, they say yo keep the fuel minimum so an aircraft can takeoff easily and then refuel the plan in mid air, but i don't understand with full weapons load and full refuel load isn't aircraft going to face problems w.r.t such excess loads or will these excess load will restrict aircraft maneuverability greatly and causes jitteriness or would aircraft has to burn it's afterburners to remain afloat with such loads?


All hail to Aero-Dynamics and Fluid Engineering! Taking-Off requires more thrust than cruising at altitude.


----------



## Jango

mafiya said:


> If an aircraft is to go into air with 1 drop tank and full weapons load, they say yo keep the fuel minimum so an aircraft can takeoff easily and then refuel the plan in mid air, but i don't understand with full weapons load and full refuel load isn't aircraft going to face problems w.r.t such excess loads or will these excess load will restrict aircraft maneuverability greatly and causes jitteriness or would aircraft has to burn it's afterburners to remain afloat with such loads?



I have not fully understood your question, but here it goes.

If a aircraft is fully loaded with fuel and weapons/bombs, then it means that the aircraft is going on a bombing mission deep into enemy territory and not be getting into high-g dogfights or any action with any other aircraft. Going into a deep strike bombing mission, aircraft usually have an escort with them, to provide support with a range of AAM.

An example is the Israeli raid on Iraqi nuclear reactors. They had a mix of F-15's and F-16's. The F-16's were with the bombs, and they were fully loaded, and jettisoned the fuel tanks over Saudi Arab. The F-15's were there to provide support in case of engagement. So a aircraft that is fully loaded with fuel and bombs won't be getting into a fight where high-g maneuvers are called for.

The case where aircraft takeoff with light load of fuel and refuel mid air is because of multiple reasons. One is that a de-rated takeoff might be performed, so as to save the engine. Second is that more weapons load can be carried by an aircraft, so the takeoff weight limit is still not crossed, but the weapons load is maximum. Then after takeoff and during a level phase of flight, the aircraft can then refuel, and get back to a full load of fuel and weapons.

Another thing is that Max take off weight (MTOW) is always greater than Max landing weight (MLW). MLW never exceeds MTOW. The inflight gross max weight is more than MTOW I believe (will check on that).

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> The case where aircraft takeoff with light load of fuel and refuel mid air is because of multiple reasons. One is that a de-rated takeoff might be performed, so as to save the engine. Second is that more weapons load can be carried by an aircraft, so the takeoff weight limit is still not crossed, but the weapons load is maximum. Then after takeoff and during a level phase of flight, the aircraft can then refuel, and get back to a full load of fuel and weapons.



This is what he asked for.


----------



## fatman17

drop tanks are now mostly used for 'ferry' and 'training' sorties. they are not used so much in combat (as long as air-refuelling is available) to maximize the ordnance load. gone are the days of 'punching' the drop tanks for dog-fighting.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muradk

mafiya said:


> If an aircraft is to go into air with 1 drop tank and full weapons load, they say yo keep the fuel minimum so an aircraft can takeoff easily and then refuel the plan in mid air, but i don't understand with full weapons load and full refuel load isn't aircraft going to face problems w.r.t such excess loads or will these excess load will restrict aircraft maneuverability greatly and causes jitteriness or would aircraft has to burn it's afterburners to remain afloat with such loads?



Friend I don't under stand by 1 drop tank. Second part yes its easy for the fighter to refuel in mid-Air with extra weight. Remember it takes a lot of power to take a fighter off with fuel and weapons. 
If the fighter loses his right or left fuel tank and the fighter is with 1 fuel tank and loaded with weapons he is in for a ride of his life.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Teeta

I know its kinda retarded but how many aircrafts are present in Pakistan Air Force? 

Wiki says that Pakistan got total of 34 F-16 C/D block 52+ ...it is true? I thought the number was only 18..but apparently US gave another additional 14 F-16 C/D to Pakistan.

Also , does anyone know the exact number of JF-17s in PAF at the moment? Can I get any credible list?


----------



## Najam Khan

Teeta said:


> I know its kinda retarded but how many aircrafts are present in Pakistan Air Force?
> 
> Wiki says that Pakistan got total of 34 F-16 C/D block 52+ ...it is true? I thought the number was only 18..but apparently US gave another additional 14 F-16 C/D to Pakistan.
> 
> Also , does anyone know the exact number of JF-17s in PAF at the moment? Can I get any credible list?


63 F-16s, 45 A/B models undergoing MLU, 18 F-16C/D Block52. 
Over 40 JF-17s in operational service (+5-7 undergoing evaluation).

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## kernelx

I want to know that what are the difficulties to fix a missile on drone? as I have listen to fix a missile and to control it is a difficult task and Pakistan still not got this technique of fixing. So I want to know why its too difficult. apparently it seems that it must not be a difficult task


----------



## fatman17

kernelx said:


> I want to know that what are the difficulties to fix a missile on drone? as I have listen to fix a missile and to control it is a difficult task and Pakistan still not got this technique of fixing. So I want to know why its too difficult. apparently it seems that it must not be a difficult task



the size and engine- of the drone for starters.


----------



## Donatello

Najam Khan said:


> 63 F-16s, 45 A/B models undergoing MLU, 18 F-16C/D Block52.
> Over 40 JF-17s in operational service (+5-7 undergoing evaluation).



Najam Sahab,

Will the recent JF-17 loss be made up for? As i think it was still with PAC and not officially delivered to the Air Force.


----------



## Najam Khan

Donatello said:


> Najam Sahab,
> 
> *Will the recent JF-17 loss be made up for?* As i think it was still with PAC and not officially delivered to the Air Force.



I believe so. Producing one more extra air frame is not a problem, losing a precious member of the team is one.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hassan1

Pakistan Air force A-7 Corsair II (refused)


----------



## Najam Khan

hassan1 said:


> Pakistan Air force A-7 Corsair II (refused)


...because of the terms and conditions they were offered with. One of the key points was rolling back Nuke program and get 120 A-7s in exchange.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Saquib

what is the average number of aircraft make a PAF squadron?


----------



## INDIAISM

16 jet per Squad if i am not wrong....


----------



## S.Y.A

16 if my info is correct

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## truthseeker2010

it varies but typically its 18.....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Saquib

How many pilots to a aircraft?


----------



## HAIDER

Saquib said:


> How many pilots to a aircraft?



You can guess, but a PAF pilot will never answer you. Its all subject to PAF training and confidentiality. Or even number of Squad. It always varies from situation to situation .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

18................

Reactions: Like Like:

1


----------



## farhan_9909

18 in general

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Saquib

Are there any NCO pilots or are all officers


----------



## Luftwaffe

Moderators close the Thread, this should be asked in Air Force Question Thread.

*Are there any NCO pilots or are all officers.*

All Officers...gone are the days of WWI/WWII but US still practices it due to shortage of Pilots specially in USN.


----------



## HAIDER

Luftwaffe said:


> Moderators close the Thread, this should be asked in Air Force Question Thread.
> 
> *Are there any NCO pilots or are all officers.*
> 
> All Officers...gone are the days of WWI/WWII but US still practices it due to shortage of Pilots specially in USN.



no...all veteran pilots...lolzzz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kaykay

paf maintains 2 pilots per aircraft....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Captain Spark

Hi I'm a new member, so couldnt start a thread, so asking the question here:

I would like to know your opinions on how the PAF plans to counter the IAF in case of any conflict owing overwhelming superiority of IAF platmorms and weapons both in number and quality??

I think none of the pakistani members would agree to this but cummon, be realistic, hw on earth is the PAF is thinking of countering T-50s, Su30mki and rafael with only F16s ????


----------



## Last Hope

Captain Spark said:


> Hi I'm a new member, so couldnt start a thread, so asking the question here:
> I would like to know your opinions on how the PAF plans to counter the IAF in case of any conflict owing overwhelming superiority of IAF platmorms and weapons both in number and quality??



This has been answered many times before.


> I think none of the pakistani members would agree to this but cummon, be realistic, hw on earth is the PAF is thinking of countering T-50s, Su30mki and rafael with only F16s ????


T-50s are long way. Su-30s and Rafale can be countered by F-16s, J-10s and possibly JF-17s too. All that is required is right man behind the gun. With tactics and skills of pilot, F-16 can shoot down F-22. 

For more, go through this thread. 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/160130-how-paf-should-counter-su-30-mki.html

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## giant panda

I noticed Paf have many female pilots of K-8, Here I have a question
when can we expect to see more Paf female pilots of JF-17??


----------



## fatman17

giant panda said:


> I noticed Paf have many female pilots of K-8, Here I have a question
> when can we expect to see more Paf female pilots of JF-17??



if they qualify, you will see them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Thorough Pro

Captain Spark said:


> I would like to know your opinions on how the PAF plans to counter the IAF in case of any conflict owing overwhelming superiority of IAF platmorms and weapons both in number and quality??



There is no such thing as overwhelming superiority of IAF, they probably have more than one target per PAF pilots.


----------



## Captain Spark

Thorough Pro said:


> There is no such thing as overwhelming superiority of IAF, they probably have more than one target per PAF pilots.



yeah exactly......that is what I meant.


----------



## Muradk

Saquib said:


> what is the average number of aircraft make a PAF squadron?



Dont ask questions like that please. Somethings are better off not knowing them, Yes now a days we all can Google Earth and few other sites and look at the Air Base and count the planes, Not a must that they are the right number. 
Thanks.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muradk

fatman17 said:


> if they qualify, you will see them.



First to answer the ( all of the above ) all of you have the wrong number of Fighters so stop throwing out numbers it depends on the situation which changes day to day.


Fatman dear friend I hope all is well. what I saw and what I was told few of them did graduated but for some reason which I don't or the person telling me didn't know was all the ladies ended up in the VIP SQD in Chaklala. Again if you want I can make a few calls and find out the exact number and who is flying what. Anything for you dear.
MK

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Desertfalcon

Luftwaffe said:


> but US still practices it due to shortage of Pilots specially in USN.


There were only a few special rated, enlisted/Sargent pilots in WWII. There have been none in the American services since then. All pilots are officers, in every service, no matter what they fly.


----------



## Muradk

Desertfalcon said:


> There were only a few special rated, enlisted/Sargent pilots in WWII. There have been none in the American services since then. All pilots are officers, in every service, no matter what they fly.



In the Air-Force and Navy yes but the other 2 branches they have pilots who are not officers. ( Talking about choppers ).


----------



## Desertfalcon

Muradk said:


> In the Air-Force and Navy yes but the other 2 branches they have pilots who are not officers. ( Talking about choppers ).


Ah! Yes, there are warrant officers who are chopper pilots but unlike most of the worlds military forces, warrant officers are not considered senior NCO's in the American armed forces but I see your point. In American service, warrant officers are saluted, billeted with officers, enjoy the officers clubs, etc. In most military forces, they are a separate grade of senior NCO's.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Luftwaffe

Desertfalcon said:


> There were only a few special rated, enlisted/Sargent pilots in WWII. There have been none in the American services since then. All pilots are officers, in every service, no matter what they fly.



The Navy is conducting a test program to select highly motivated active duty enlisted Sailors in the paygrades of E-5 through E-7, and place them (as Chief Warrant Officers) in cockpits as Naval Pilots and Naval Flight Officers (NFO).

The test program began in 2006, in which the Navy selected ten pilots and four NFOs. The 2007 selection board chose ten pilots and six NFOs. Over the next two years, 15 sailors will be commissioned in the paygrade of CW02, attend Chief Warrant Officer Indoctrination Training, then undergo flight training. Five pilots and three NFOs will be selected by a board in July 2008, and four pilots and three NFOs by a board in July 2009. 

Warrant officers are being training under this program to be pilots on P-3 Orion, EP-3 Aries, E-6 Mercury, and SH-60B/MH-60S helicopter s. Warrant officers selected for NFO will fly in the P-3 Orion, EP-3 Aries and E-6 Mercury aircrafts.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

Muradk said:


> First to answer the ( all of the above ) all of you have the wrong number of Fighters so stop throwing out numbers it depends on the situation which changes day to day.
> 
> 
> Fatman dear friend I hope all is well. what I saw and what I was told few of them did graduated but for some reason which I don't or the person telling me didn't know was all the ladies ended up in the VIP SQD in Chaklala. Again if you want I can make a few calls and find out the exact number and who is flying what. Anything for you dear.
> MK



thanks Sir!
hope all is well with you and your family. i pray for your health and well being.
God Bless!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ssrule

brother can any body tell me quantity of jf 17 in dec 2012


----------



## Last Hope

ssrule said:


> brother can any body tell me quantity of jf 17 in dec 2012



3 Squadron, unconfirmed figures between 46-50.


----------



## fatman17

Last Hope said:


> 3 Squadron, unconfirmed figures between 46-50.



sir 8+42 = 50.
1 attrition leaves 49 in service.
16/squadron.


----------



## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> sir 8+42 = 50.
> 1 attrition leaves 49 in service.
> 16/squadron.



The loss was/is being made up for. As far as I heard the last 4 units produced were called back by PAC for further tests and grounded till they are given green signal to fly.


----------



## Gentelman

Captain Spark said:


> Hi I'm a new member, so couldnt start a thread, so asking the question here:
> 
> I would like to know your opinions on how the PAF plans to counter the IAF in case of any conflict owing overwhelming superiority of IAF platmorms and weapons both in number and quality??
> 
> I think none of the pakistani members would agree to this but cummon, be realistic, hw on earth is the PAF is thinking of countering T-50s, Su30mki and rafael with only F16s ????



ohhh boy Su 30 MKI is just start to being induced and it is in initial phase.. 
and Rafeal?? have u any rafeal?? no its long way to go.......
maybe 2016-17...
well aircrafts maintained by PAF are largely modranized....
i.e chk out F7 of PAF they made it a different platform.....with great radar IRST etc and also chk our mariages.....
sooo PAF aircrafts are upgraded dont underestimate them.....
well u have 5 gen fightes bt PAF dont soo this is a concern.... bt with traning all this can be neutralized...
and in near future i hope they will get one from china.....


----------



## khanasifm

anything new in this article?

PUTTING PLANS TO THE TEST
The Pakistan Air Force is supporting the army in its efforts to rid the country of militants. Alan Warnes reports

Dec issue

AIR International: For the best in modern military and commercial aviation

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> anything new in this article?
> 
> PUTTING PLANS TO THE TEST
> The Pakistan Air Force is supporting the army in its efforts to rid the country of militants. Alan Warnes reports
> 
> Dec issue
> 
> AIR International: For the best in modern military and commercial aviation



the story/news about the FLIR Herks was new to many. the DB-110's quick induction and photography of most of FATA was good news. the Mirages with LORAP have been made redundent by the DB-110's. the PAF updating its CAS doctrine was something new. - not everyone is privy to such news - it was a good article IMO.


----------



## Jango

fatman17 said:


> the story/news about the FLIR Herks was new to many. the DB-110's quick induction and photography of most of FATA was good news. ...



THe Herk FLIR came into public eye only after Kamra attack.


----------



## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> anything new in this article?
> 
> PUTTING PLANS TO THE TEST
> The Pakistan Air Force is supporting the army in its efforts to rid the country of militants. Alan Warnes reports
> 
> Dec issue
> 
> AIR International: For the best in modern military and commercial aviation


Some information given in this thread.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/220473-star-safire-brite-star-systems-paf.html


----------



## Bratva

nuclearpak said:


> THe Herk FLIR *came into public eye only after Kamra attack*.



Are you sure? Didn't it came into public eye when PAF chief disclosed in 2010 in which he told how many bombs have been dropped and how Herk FLIR is being deployed to monitor terrorist movements?


----------



## Jango

mafiya said:


> Are you sure? Didn't it came into public eye when PAF chief disclosed in 2010 in which he told how many bombs have been dropped and how Herk FLIR is being deployed to monitor terrorist movements?



I mean public, not in PDF eyes. By public i mean news channels and major coverage avenues. It was also the ifrst time it was seen in action.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

Does PAF F 16s use drouge and probe refuelling or boom refuelling?

Does the PAF IL 78 tanker use the drouge refuelling or it can use also boom refuelling?


----------



## fatman17

satishkumarcsc said:


> Does PAF F 16s use drouge and probe refuelling or boom refuelling?
> 
> Does the PAF IL 78 tanker use the drouge refuelling or it can use also boom refuelling?



PAF F-16's have the plumbing (probe) for IFR but the IL-78 cannot mate with the F-16's (drouge) or basket.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jahanzeb111

i want to ask that our latest 18 (f16c/d block 52+) jets are of what use??? i mean we cant go out of our borders without the permission of usa, we cant fire on nato friendly opposition. 
usa monitors our jets 24/7, there r jamming & tracking pods in 52+

if v r buying the jets then y not to buy those jets that could be flown anywhere without any restriction......

52+ r of what use, if not helpful in case of any attack.....???


----------



## Last Hope

jahanzeb111 said:


> i want to ask that our latest 18 (f16c/d block 52+) jets are of what use??? i mean we cant go out of our borders without the permission of usa, we cant fire on nato friendly opposition.
> usa monitors our jets 24/7, there r jamming & tracking pods in 52+
> 
> if v r buying the jets then y not to buy those jets that could be flown anywhere without any restriction......
> 
> 52+ r of what use, if not helpful in case of any attack.....???



They are just a gap replacement till J-10 and JF-17 Block II/III are ready which means atleast a decade.


----------



## jahanzeb111

i dont think that every airforce is under such a check&balance who is flying 52+
then y v????
these r not came in aid, v paid for them....


----------



## Jango

fatman17 said:


> PAF F-16's have the plumbing (probe) for IFR but the IL-78 cannot mate with the F-16's (drouge) or basket.



As I understand, F-16's don't have a probe rather a receptacle. It isn't a probe and drogue system, rather a boom that fixes onto the receptacle.


----------



## Pfpilot

jahanzeb111 said:


> i want to ask that our latest 18 (f16c/d block 52+) jets are of what use??? i mean we cant go out of our borders without the permission of usa, we cant fire on nato friendly opposition.
> usa monitors our jets 24/7, there r jamming & tracking pods in 52+
> 
> if v r buying the jets then y not to buy those jets that could be flown anywhere without any restriction......
> 
> 52+ r of what use, if not helpful in case of any attack.....???



Hmm...the answers to all your questions are present in your post. Why would the US sell us fighters if the end result will be their use against American allies? The thinking that your post represents is precisely why there are restrictions. Restrictions that are relevant only if your goal is to rule all of Asia and bomb everyone from Israel to Russia. The reality is, the F-16s are capable of accomplishing the exact tasks that they would face in a realistic scenario. They are unstoppable against terrorists and will give the IAF a headache in any endeavor across the border. The restrictions then, are only relevant because of the ambitious thinking of PDF posters. Our conflicts are local and at most regional; and our struggle is theoretically defensive. So if one can accept that, then the puzzle pieces fit into place.

As the premier super power, the US pulls all the strings. Any equipment bought from them has implicit restrictions, whether we speak of Pakistan or Taiwan or Israel. Where there are hotspots and potential for conflict, they are far more vocal about what they are and aren't ok with. If we want, we can use these f-16s for all we want, but by attacking NATO ally, we would face a response that would overwhelm us. And neither the Rafale or Eurofighter would change that. You cannot buy from a nation and then cry foul when they'd prefer you didn't attack their closest allies. Lets not forget, India is so economically intertwined with America and for that matter China, you are going to be lucky to procure equipment that doesn't have some restrictions on its offensive use. Now how lenient that nation is depends on the wider relationship. But try using f-7s to bomb Pyongyang and see how the Chinese react. No nation will sell at the expense of its own long term needs and that of their allies. Israel gets a free hand because the nations it has disagreements with were part of the Soviet hegemony in the Middle East; hardly the nations the US will care for. 

To defend ourselves, we can launch all the amraams the heart desires. But cross either border and you are actively defying the world the US perceives itself to be building and just ask Saddam how that turned out.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## muse

So, can someone explain what use these F16 are? By accepting these F16, have Pakistan basically given over to the US their autonomy of action?

Not suggesting that we attack anybody, but if a foreign power has the say so in when and how these weapons systems can be used, why do we need a PAF or any kind of armed forces in Pakistan? Why should we keep feeding scare treasury funds to support these armed forces when they themselves belong not to the nation but to a foreign power??

Please, no offense intended, just explain


----------



## SQ8

muse said:


> So, can someone explain what use these F16 are?* By accepting these F16, have Pakistan basically given over to the US their autonomy of action?*
> 
> Not suggesting that we attack anybody, but if a foreign power has the say so in when and how these weapons systems can be used, why do we need a PAF or any kind of armed forces in Pakistan? Why should we keep feeding scare treasury funds to support these armed forces when they themselves belong not to the nation but to a foreign power??
> 
> Please, no offense intended, just explain



At no point has that happened. What you have is nothing more than the stench of yellow journalism going overboard with the oft repeated kill switches and what not. At no point are these weapons restricted in their usage except perhaps through power of words.

The only restrictions however are those based on curtailing plagiarism and stealing of technology by the Chinese or by the PAF for the Chinese. After all, the J-10 program owes a lot to the PAF's willingness to let the Chinese scan their F-16s inside out.
To prevent that from happening again, the US has put in strict controls in terms of who, when and how maintenance is done on the critical electronics and sensitive system. While this does not mean that the PAF will need a LockMart Technician every time it needs to change a bolt. It does mean that systems such as Digital Processing cards or other sensitive electronics within LRUs cannot be fixed by PAF personnel and have to be sent back to the US and a complete unit refitted in its place.
Moreover, there is also strict control on the Spare records and what is stored where. Digital ID tags on all equipment and video surveillance of storage areas(those storing sensitive equipment) within Jacobabad. 
Systems such as the SNIPER targeting pod have both physical and digital seals to detect unauthorized tampering.

And finally.. under no circumstances(unless cleared by the US mil attache) are any Chinese personnel to be allowed near the premises where the F-16s are operating from.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> At no point has that happened. What you have is nothing more than the stench of yellow journalism going overboard with the oft repeated kill switches and what not. At no point are these weapons restricted in their usage except perhaps through power of words.
> 
> The only restrictions however are those based on curtailing plagiarism and stealing of technology by the Chinese or by the PAF for the Chinese. After all, the J-10 program owes a lot to the PAF's willingness to let the Chinese scan their F-16s inside out.
> To prevent that from happening again, the US has put in strict controls in terms of who, when and how maintenance is done on the critical electronics and sensitive system. While this does not mean that the PAF will need a LockMart Technician every time it needs to change a bolt. It does mean that systems such as Digital Processing cards or other sensitive electronics within LRUs cannot be fixed by PAF personnel and have to be sent back to the US and a complete unit refitted in its place.
> Moreover, there is also strict control on the Spare records and what is stored where. Digital ID tags on all equipment and video surveillance of storage areas(those storing sensitive equipment) within Jacobabad.
> Systems such as the SNIPER targeting pod have both physical and digital seals to detect unauthorized tampering.
> 
> And finally.. under no circumstances(unless cleared by the US mil attache) are any Chinese personnel to be allowed near the premises where the F-16s are operating from.





Hi,

I am sure the Chinese cannot get hands on actually F-16 BLK52 hardware, but they can get the experience and interface results out of the pilots who fly them. So for example, PAF pilots can tell the Chinese at Chengdu or Shenyang that hey, this is how the F-16 Radar works in such and such situation. Can we have the JF-17 or J-10 radar like that or perhaps negate the weaknesses? So i am sure PAF experience can go into designing the Chinese jets.

Also, it is only a matter of time when the Chinese catch up to the electronics of the western fighters.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## muse

Oscar said:


> At no point has that happened. The only restrictions however are who, when and how maintenance is done on the critical electronics and sensitive system. While this does not mean that the PAF will need a LockMart Technician every time it needs to change a bolt. It does mean that systems such as Digital Processing cards or other sensitive electronics within LRUs cannot be fixed by PAF personnel and have to be sent back to the US and a complete unit refitted in its place.
> Moreover, there is also strict control on the Spare records and what is stored where. Digital ID tags on all equipment and video surveillance of storage areas(those storing sensitive equipment) within Jacobabad.
> Systems such as the SNIPER targeting pod have both physical and digital seals to detect unauthorized tampering.
> 
> And finally.. under no circumstances(unless cleared by the US mil attache) are any Chinese personnel to be allowed near the premises where the F-16s are operating from.



Thank you for the explanation- as you yourself have made clear Pakistan have very limited control over these systems - As the US already has a record, so to speak, of being a poor or unreliable supplier, why exactly have a segment of the Pakistani officer corp allowed Pakistan's defense to be under the control of the US??

You have said that the US decides WHO, HOW and WHEN - Is it, therefore, unreasonable to conclude that what a particular segment of the officer corp have done is to outsource Pakistan's autonomy of action to a foreign power (WHO, HOW, WHEN) 

I completely understand that the segment of the officer corp which is in the good books of the US should find such a conclusion embarrassing, however, don't you think that instead of justifying the outsourcing of Pakistan's defense to a hostile foreign power that we should be rectifying this mistake??


The US is a hostile foreign power, not just towards Pakistan but towards Muslims in general, but even if this assertion is controversial to the segment of the officer corp favorable to the US, clearly, the public perception of the US and the officer corps cozy relationship with it, is having a negative effect on both the officer corp and the relationship with the US, will that segment of the officer corp that is cozy with the US, not realize that it cannot be out of step with the public?? Or will it risk it's very existence for the sake of being cozy with US and her interests over those of Pakistan and her populace?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am sure the Chinese cannot get hands on actually F-16 BLK52 hardware, but they can get the experience and interface results out of the pilots who fly them. So for example, PAF pilots can tell the Chinese at Chengdu or Shenyang that hey, *this is how the F-16 Radar works in such and such situation*. Can we have the JF-17 or J-10 radar like that or perhaps negate the weaknesses? So i am sure PAF experience can go into designing the Chinese jets.
> 
> Also, it is only a matter of time when the Chinese catch up to the electronics of the western fighters.



That is still only stating a requirement.. this may not be analogous to people trying to replicate the KFC secret recipe by trial and error. Since to say the radar works this and this way.. would still require the Chinese to reach a level in signal processing that they can replicate those parameters noticed by PAF pilots.



muse said:


> Thank you for the explanation- as you yourself have made clear Pakistan have very limited control over these systems - As the US already has a record, so to speak, of being a poor or unreliable supplier, why exactly have a segment of the Pakistani officer corp allowed Pakistan's defense to be under the control of the US??
> 
> You have said that the US decides WHO, HOW and WHEN - Is it, therefore, u*nreasonable to conclude that what a particular segment of the officer corp have done is to outsource Pakistan's autonomy of action to a foreign power* (WHO, HOW, WHEN)
> 
> I completely understand that the segment of the officer corp which is in the good books of the US should find such a conclusion embarrassing, however, don't you think that instead of justifying the outsourcing of Pakistan's defense to a hostile foreign power that we should be rectifying this mistake??
> 
> 
> The US is a hostile foreign power, not just towards Pakistan but towards Muslims in general, but even if this assertion is controversial to the segment of the officer corp favorable to the US, clearly, the public perception of the US and the officer corps cozy relationship with it, is having a negative effect on both the officer corp and the relationship with the US, will that segment of the officer corp that is cozy with the US, not realize that it cannot be out of step with the public?? Or will it risk it's very existence for the sake of being cozy with US and her interests over those of Pakistan and her populace?



Not autonomy of action per-se.. but autonomy of continued operations during wartime.
The PAF can if it wishes simply not comply with the US rules, however that will mean that any further US spares may not be forthcoming until the compliance is verified.
Think of it in terms of an Iphone(although too simple an example).. You may use the Iphone as you wish.. as long as you dont jailbreak it and install illegal software. When and if you do that, the warranty offered by Apple becomes void.

So you may go ahead and use the system in your defense or hand it over to the Chinese. But when and if that happens the support for your F-16s gets cut-off. After that you may take the whole aircraft apart and try to replicate it but there will be no more US hardware heading your way.

If there is to be actual serious concern about sovereignty then it should be about the surveillance system at KPT and Port Qasim that was operational during Musharraf's time(current status unknown)..
every container that came into Pakistan was scanned in real time by people sitting in the US..

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## muse

Oscar said:


> Think of it in terms of an Iphone
> So you may go ahead and use the system in your defense or hand it over to the Chinese. But when and if that happens the support for your F-16s gets cut-off. After that you may take the whole aircraft apart and try to replicate it but there will be no more US hardware heading your way.
> .




Which why I never purchase any Apple products - because the purchase is really a lease of a sort, the equipment is never yours.

Now, I don't mean to test your patience, but do you guys actually understand that what you are doing is putting your existence (unreconstructed) at risk? You do realize don't you, that you will be "reconstructed"? And no unkil Sam to the rescue.

Instead of spending any more time and money on this system, PAF should be looking to sell this system and look to reliable suppliers who enjoy the confidence of the Pakistani nation. The usual retort of the evil Indian up to no damn good, has now begun to wear thin, after all, who in Pakistan is up to any good that we should be so concerned about the Indian?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

muse said:


> Which why I never purchase any Apple products - because the purchase is really a lease of a sort, the equipment is never yours.
> 
> Now, I don't mean to test your patience, but do you guys actually understand that what you are doing is putting your existence (unreconstructed) at risk? You do realize don't you, that you will be "reconstructed"? And no unkil Sam to the rescue.
> 
> Instead of spending any more time and money on this system, *PAF should be looking to sell this system and look to reliable suppliers who enjoy the confidence of the Pakistani nation.* The usual retort of the evil Indian up to no damn good, has now begun to wear thin, after all, who in Pakistan is up to any good that we should be so concerned about the Indian?



Who will buy the system? 
The F-16s were a trade off(since you were getting more of them at less of a cost that it would have your procuring systems like the Eurofighter or the Rafale)..because at the end, you still know enough about them to come up with some way to keep them going.. whether good or bad, it was a catch-22 situation for many in the PAF command. Had the actual amount of funds that Pakistan received been appropriated .. the PAF may very well have bought the Rafale. But as always happens in Pakistan..Monuments and Fountains were deemed more important.

At this point.. there are NO reliable suppliers of combat aircraft other than China for the PAF. And China has yet to reach that level of reliable technological advancement that the PAF desires. 



> this is the detail of the sale and how it has been carried out.
> 
> *Supplies paid for with a mix of Pakistani national funds and FMF include:*
> 
> ! up to 60 Mid-Life Update kits for F-16A/B combat aircraft (valued at *$891 million*, with* $477 million* of this in FMF(pakistan paid $414 million), Pakistan currently plans to purchase 45 such kits and 8 have been delivered to date); and
> 
> *Notable items paid or to be paid for entirely with Pakistani national funds include:*
> 
> ! 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 combat aircraft (valued at $*1.43 billion*; all delivered);
> ! F-16 armaments including 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles; 1,450 2,000-pound bombs; 500
> JDAM Tail Kits for gravity bombs; and 1,600 Enhanced Paveway laser-guided kits, also for
> gravity bombs ($629 million);
> ! 100 Harpoon anti-ship missiles ($298 million);
> ! 500 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles ($95 million); and



In other words... Pakistan paid approx *$1.85 billion* for the F-16s of which are 18 new build..and 45 updated versions..bringing the total to some 63 essentially "new" combat aircraft) at $*29-30 million* dollars per Aircraft.(or $80 million for the new jets and $million for updating the older ones to Block-52 avionics and weapons capability standards)
NOT A BAD DEAL. 
In contrast.. a purchase of a comparable number of Rafale's or Eurofighters would require in excess of $6 billion dollars just for the aircraft.

As for the last part.. nero may still continue to play the fiddle as long as Rome burns. That is nero's conscious choice since nero has wilfully chosen to ignore it by preferring to look at its immediate need within basic needs.. 
Whatever gets nero Roti-Kapra-Makaan.. is all holy and true..
whatever does not has to be blamed on someone else since nero is and cannot be at fault.
Previously the target was India , today it is the US(using India as well).
However, under all circumstances.. the fiddle must be played as it is soothing to the frustrated, nerve whacked and generally delirious nero.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## muse

Oscar said:


> The F-16s were a trade off(since you were getting more of them at less of a cost that it would have your procuring systems like the Eurofighter or the Rafale)..because at the end, you still know enough about them to come up with some way to keep them going.. whether good or bad, it was a catch-22 situation for many in the PAF command. Had the actual amount of funds that Pakistan received been appropriated .. the PAF may very well have bought the Rafale. But as always happens in Pakistan..Monuments and Fountains were deemed more important.
> 
> At this point.. there are NO reliable suppliers of combat aircraft other than China for the PAF. And China has yet to reach that level of reliable technological advancement that the PAF desires.



See, it's not a trade off - it's a sell out - the aircraft belong to us in name only, operational control (WHO, HOW and WHEN) is in the hands of a hostile power - there is no point in sugar coating this deal, it's just an awful terrible deal -- A bad deal is always worse than no deal at all, always!

True to US style we ended up acknowledging that we are up to no good with our real ally, China, and we further agreed that we will distance ourselves from our real ally - this is just the beginning, the US now has you guys hooked, it can reel you in whenever it needs to and in the meantime, the nation sees that you lot are not be trusted with what is supposed to be your core competence, the security and autonomy (strategic and tactical) of Pakistan.

Who will buy it?? First make the decision to be rid of the system and American strings - I realize that is a process, but it can be a life saving and institution saving process - Ishara


----------



## SQ8

muse said:


> See, it's not a trade off - it's a sell out - the aircraft belong to us in name only, *operational control (WHO, HOW and WHEN) is in the hands of a hostile powe*r - there is no point in sugar coating this deal, it's just an awful terrible deal -- A bad deal is always worse than no deal at all, always!
> 
> True to US style we ended up acknowledging that we are up to no good with our real ally, China, and we further agreed that we will distance ourselves from our real ally - this is just the beginning, the US now has you guys hooked, it can reel you in whenever it needs to and in the meantime, the nation sees that you lot are not be trusted with what is supposed to be your core competence, the security and autonomy (strategic and tactical) of Pakistan.
> 
> Who will buy it?? First make the decision to be rid of the system and American strings - I realize that is a process, but it can be a life saving and institution saving process - Ishara



Does not mean that you cannot use it to its maximum capability during a war. 
It does mean you will end up without support in a war. 
So yes it is a bad deal, but the others werent too good either.
The question is of money and some vested interests.. 
but as I mentioned.. Nero is busy playing the fiddle.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## muse

Oscar said:


> Does not mean that you cannot use it to *its maximum capability during a war*.
> It does mean you will end up without support in a war.
> So *yes it is a bad deal, but the others werent too good either*.
> The question is of money and some vested interests..
> but as I mentioned.. Nero is busy playing the fiddle.



You cannot use it to it's potential in any war because it is controlled by a hostile foreign power - essentially it is a stone, you throw it against the adversary and that's that.

Other deals were no good either - sure, then that means "no deal" - see with this bad deal, you neither have a system you can use as you may want to, you lose the confidence of the nation, you alienate your true ally and you agree to make yourself the hostage of a hostile foreign power -- A bad deal is worse than no deal at all - it's just a universal law - We Pakistanis pride ourselvesevs at being practical but perhaps we should take the advice of the Chinese to heart, as in the JF17, it may not be all ours, but if we have the will, it can be - no strings, no US.

All our available funds should be going into building capability at PAC and not subsidizing US defense industry - see, in the end it does not matter what the US says, you can always be sure that it is hostile - Pakistan are Muslim and nuclear, two things no US can tolerate, all of this "India BS" is just a waste, our enemies are elsewhere.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jahanzeb111

i m talking about any aggression from india......
paf has no concern with nato or other. i mean v cant engage with everyone in the world, but to defend ourself. and for that what v have should be 100% operational.......


----------



## jahanzeb111

gentlemen will you please tell me that how many f16 have been upgraded till dec 2012 by Turkish Aerospace??? and are the upgraded jets equavilent to blk 50 or 52??

gentlemen will you please tell me that how many f16 have been upgraded till dec 2012 by Turkish Aerospace??? and are the upgraded jets equavilent to blk 50 or 52??


----------



## fatman17

jahanzeb111 said:


> gentlemen will you please tell me that how many f16 have been upgraded till dec 2012 by Turkish Aerospace??? and are the upgraded jets equavilent to blk 50 or 52??
> 
> gentlemen will you please tell me that how many f16 have been upgraded till dec 2012 by Turkish Aerospace??? and are the upgraded jets equavilent to blk 50 or 52??




six upgraded and equivalent to blk 40/42.


----------



## Taygibay

@muse

You end with this :


> All our available funds should be going into building capability at PAC and not subsidizing US defense industry - see, in the end it does not matter what the US says, you can always be sure that it is hostile - Pakistan are Muslim and nuclear, two things no US can tolerate, all of this "India BS" is just a waste, our enemies are elsewhere.



I detect a clear animosity at the US in there, i.e. "you can always be sure that it is hostile". and what follows. Let me ignore that as unrelated to PAF in particular and say this : What you describe would happen with all vendors; it is the type of control or assistance that you weigh in, to tell the truth. The US is most political and the amount of control they exert is too high for most nations save ... allies or poor ones.* ( As Oscar explained, the man in the high castle and his cronies will on occasion choose such for costs reasons but the simple fact that the US would sell "cheap" is because politics allows it or to get a foot in the door. Ask yourself if there was an interest at the time for Pakistan to better its relations with the US? )
And thus the EF would be less political but also less meaningful as the four nations that make it will probably never speak as one as allies of Pakistan. France selling the Rafale to the Indians shows political involvement over the years turning into a defence relationship. Had Pakistan had the money, getting the Rafale first would most likely have stopped India from acquiring it? Ahhhh, see what I mean? Politic overtones always accompany defence deals.
I hope that you understand that the Russians have a "hidden" agenda too ( if lesser now for economic necessity. )???
And they are unhappy with China for instance for their tech is being copied. And not all that pro-Islam anyway?
As for the Chinese themselves, a Mig remake and a LAVI extrapolation are all fine and nice to share with Pakistan but in the long run, one should remain alert when his homeland is but the doorstep to expansion to a more powerful neighbour.

So two conclusions spring to mind. One, for now, China and JF-17 and J-10 are fine but if you value your country's autonomy, you better inquire about how much it learns from its participation in those....
and two for later is the development of National capacities. In that respect, one would like to see plans, drawings, CAD/CAO images of projects. Funding the first blocks of tomorrow's Pakistani mili air.
As things stand though, the cooperation with China is present for the hardware. Deals like with Turkey for the F-16 upgrade can deliver a little more expertise. Training with your Gulf allies brings tactical nous and keep relations good with the West.

Warning though, do not overestimate your abilities as the Indians do on the production abilities as that slows the process.

So in closing, practical call : are there projects ongoing for national designs of fighters? And in the long run, is the sum of the technology from Muslim states enough to start one and when?

That answers your desires more efficiently than just ranting at the Yanks!
Good day all, Tay.

* And even for those sometimes too high a price!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## muse

Thank for your fine post - I think we are all under no illusions in that we all understand that nations act in self interest and the political movements that shape those interests - Not just you but a couple of other posters have asked why I am suggesting we distance ourselves from a security relationship with the US - so, allow me to briefly offer a rational - To my thinking, due to it's internal compulsions, the US will be involved in more wars, primarily waged upon Muslim populations - this will create even more political turmoil in Pakistan - therefore Pakistan security managers would do well, to consider their internal political imperatives, than silly stuff about 2 squadrons of any kind of aircraft - 2 squadrons will not make a difference in any conflict Pakistan will find herself in.

Yes, I very much agree that Pakistan's problem is economic and only a change in the nature of politics can help it out of the basket case category, however, what i am suggesting is that since there is little hope of political sanity, we should embrace the opportunity offered by the Chinese to actually build a capability to design and manufacture -- I find the Chinese experience instructive, for years variants of j7 sufficed till industry was at a "take off" or "tipping point" so to speak. Right now and for the next 5 to 10 years at least, Pakistan do not need, NEED, US or French fighter jets, especially just 2 squadrons of them (economy will not allow for more -- and US grants will further exacerbate the political problem that US policies create ) 

Good relations with the West? I want excellent relations with the West and such relations can only be predicated on commerce first, not security first. Pakistanis over estimating themselves? there is little chance of this -- and really it's not about this, its an opportunity to learn and to relearn ambition and confidence that will serve not just the service but serve as vehicle to bring the nation together.

Allow me to also briefly deal with this India bogey man -- This is just not a persuasive bogey man, no Indian is blowing up Pakistanis in Masajid or Bazaars or shooting down PAF personnel like dogs in the streets, no Indian is dividing Pakistanis by sect or involving them in entirely needless schisms and fissures in the very fabric of society - so the indian is welcome to anything he can pay for or get, I just do not see that as a threat, certainly not when compared to the internal fissures that Pakistani security managers have allowed to be created in Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Taygibay

"... I am suggesting we distance ourselves from a security relationship with the US..."

Silly me, I had entirely disregarded that aspect of things. I'm so sorry, from that perspective, you are quite right.
The rest of the post was then not necessary but I am glad to have read it nonetheless.

Please keep me posted on any indigenous design and good evening, Tay


----------



## MastanKhan

Taygibay said:


> @muse
> 
> You end with this :
> 
> 
> I detect a clear animosity at the US in there, i.e. "you can always be sure that it is hostile". and what follows. Let me ignore that as unrelated to PAF in particular and say this : What you describe would happen with all vendors; it is the type of control or assistance that you weigh in, to tell the truth. The US is most political and the amount of control they exert is too high for most nations save ... allies or poor ones.* ( As Oscar explained, the man in the high castle and his cronies will on occasion choose such for costs reasons but the simple fact that the US would sell "cheap" is because politics allows it or to get a foot in the door. Ask yourself if there was an interest at the time for Pakistan to better its relations with the US? )
> And thus the EF would be less political but also less meaningful as the four nations that make it will probably never speak as one as allies of Pakistan. France selling the Rafale to the Indians shows political involvement over the years turning into a defence relationship. Had Pakistan had the money, getting the Rafale first would most likely have stopped India from acquiring it? Ahhhh, see what I mean? Politic overtones always accompany defence deals.
> I hope that you understand that the Russians have a "hidden" agenda too ( if lesser now for economic necessity. )???
> And they are unhappy with China for instance for their tech is being copied. And not all that pro-Islam anyway?
> As for the Chinese themselves, a Mig remake and a LAVI extrapolation are all fine and nice to share with Pakistan but in the long run, one should remain alert when his homeland is but the doorstep to expansion to a more powerful neighbour.
> 
> So two conclusions spring to mind. One, for now, China and JF-17 and J-10 are fine but if you value your country's autonomy, you better inquire about how much it learns from its participation in those....
> and two for later is the development of National capacities. In that respect, one would like to see plans, drawings, CAD/CAO images of projects. Funding the first blocks of tomorrow's Pakistani mili air.
> As things stand though, the cooperation with China is present for the hardware. Deals like with Turkey for the F-16 upgrade can deliver a little more expertise. Training with your Gulf allies brings tactical nous and keep relations good with the West.
> 
> Warning though, do not overestimate your abilities as the Indians do on the production abilities as that slows the process.
> 
> So in closing, practical call : are there projects ongoing for national designs of fighters? And in the long run, is the sum of the technology from Muslim states enough to start one and when?
> 
> That answers your desires more efficiently than just ranting at the Yanks!
> Good day all, Tay.
> 
> * And even for those sometimes too high a price!




Hi,

The reason for the paf not buying the rafale was not monetory---but rather BAD ANALYSIS---. Around 2003 to 2005--paf had made up their minds that the peace progress with india was in its final stages---and would be signed shortly----so they decided that there was no reason for pakistan to spend such a large sum of money to get an aircraft like the rafale which---as to their assessment would never ever be used---so they went ahead with cheap investment---jf17.

They thought it would be a big waste of money----. Remember---after 9/11 pakistani banks were bursting with money and the govt was comparatively rich in cash---people had gotten new found wealth like never before.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Taygibay

Peace process with India? Isn't that like the water in a river, a never ending flow?
And now it's going to be J-17 against Rafale which is not correct. I hope the Indians
are fair play and use Tejas on that border. Maybe M2Ks and keep the MKI and Raffys
for China 

All kidding aside, your government of then should have remembered the driving motto
of functional armies since Rome : Civis pacem, para bellum.
_If you want Peace, prepare for War.

Thnx for the answer, good day all, Tay.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

Taygibay said:


> Peace process with India? Isn't that like the water in a river, a never ending flow?
> And now it's going to be J-17 against Rafale which is not correct. I hope the Indians
> are fair play and use Tejas on that border. Maybe M2Ks and keep the MKI and Raffys
> for China
> 
> All kidding aside, your government of then should have remembered the driving motto
> of functional armies since Rome : Civis pacem, para bellum.
> _If you want Peace, prepare for War.
> 
> Thnx for the answer, good day all, Tay.




Hi,

Actually someone should have reminded that to the idiots in the air force blue uniforms---.


----------



## TAC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The reason for the paf not buying the rafale was not monetory---but rather BAD ANALYSIS---. Around 2003 to 2005--paf had made up their minds that the peace progress with india was in its final stages---and would be signed shortly----so they decided that there was no reason for pakistan to spend such a large sum of money to get an aircraft like the rafale which---as to their assessment would never ever be used---so they went ahead with cheap investment---jf17.
> 
> They thought it would be a big waste of money----. Remember---after 9/11 pakistani banks were bursting with money and the govt was comparatively rich in cash---people had gotten new found wealth like never before.



Sorry but all of this is absolute and utter rubish. JF-17 was never pursued instead of Rafale and the banks were never ever in the history of Pakistan ' bursting with money'. Please do not try to pass off things you make up as fact. Only an idiot will believe nonesense like this.


----------



## MastanKhan

TAC said:


> Sorry but all of this is absolute and utter rubish. JF-17 was never pursued instead of Rafale and the banks were never ever in the history of Pakistan ' bursting with money'. Please do not try to pass off things you make up as fact. Only an idiot will believe nonesense like this.




Son,

It is not the first time kids call their elders or parents with that name---and it won't be the last either---in my teen years 40 + years ago---I have addressed my parents and elders as such---so these words like RUBBISH and idiot don't mean much---.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Kompromat

@TAC Would humbly request you to show a "little bit" of respect.


----------



## Gentelman

when PAF is getting Spada??
wt about third squadron of JF-17..are we geeting J-10 Bor not??
I heard about deal of 36 J-10 on some papers and some websites.....
there were some specific requirements by PAF on those birds.....


----------



## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Son,
> 
> It is not the first time kids call their elders or parents with that name---and it won't be the last either---in my teen years 40 + years ago---I have addressed my parents and elders as such---so these words like RUBBISH and idiot don't mean much---.



Well sir, in that case it is Karma catching up with you.

About your oft-aired views: Need to move on sir. PAF strategy makes sense only in backdrop of inflicting unacceptable damage to an aggressor. With the state of economy today, that is just as well. At least I do not foresee any invasion or strike from India if we play our cards right. China has well shown that one could avoid war and grow while bear-hugging your adversary. We could learn from that.

You have often remarked that a superior weapon system could lead to a satisfactory solution of Kashmir issue. I disagree. After Kargil, no weapon system can substitute the strategic damage done by ourselves. Your estimation of the impact of a weapon system perhaps reflects your background. But do understand that the world does not necessarily run its course according to how one wishes to see it happen. Reality is far more complex than what you allow for in your analysis relating to acquisition of a particular weapon system and its purported impact.

We in Pakistan need ten years of growth, diversification of energy sourcing, close to 100% school attendance, lesser degree of ideological disorientation, and a dogged determination to achieving objectives. No weapon package would help us along the path. Some vocal detractors say that we are 'fooling' ourselves with JF17, but its impact on national psyche can not be ignored. In that this program is worth more than the money spent on it.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Actually PAF was looking at Rafale very seriously and French were ready to sell it. Me personally I believe inducting and developing Thunder platform should be biggest priority.


----------



## MilSpec

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Actually PAF was looking at Rafale very seriously and French were ready to sell it. Me personally I believe inducting and developing Thunder platform should be biggest priority.



PAF can afford much more than what seems, Your army is starving your airforce!

Instead of next 100 Nukes, My slight guess would be 5 sqdns of EFT's or j31's would be a better deterrent

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## notorious_eagle

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Actually PAF was looking at Rafale very seriously and French were ready to sell it. Me personally I believe inducting and developing Thunder platform should be biggest priority.



It is indeed the biggest priority, look at the timeline of JF17 from the past five years and look how far it has evolved. The weaponery on board JF17 makes it a very potent platform, especially for us when our enemy is right next door. PAF looked at the Rafale but was not interested due to the cost factor and also PAF's love for the F16's. From Day 1, the plan was to procure additional F16's and put money in for JF17's development. 
@MastanKhan is absolutely correct in his analogy that PAF dropped in the ball in 2003. She sure had the funds but laziness was one of the reasons for the delayed procurement. It was not just PAF, the entire country was under the spell of peace with India. Indian people were being invited to our guest shows and the 2004 cricket series set the motion for the peace process. I remember there were several talk shows where respected individuals from both sides were advocating reunion between both India and Pakistan. Thus, Khan Sahib is right in claiming that PAF dropped the ball and should have been more proactive with their procurements.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

sandy_3126 said:


> PAF can afford much more than what seems, Your army is starving your airforce!
> 
> Instead of next 100 Nukes, My slight guess would be 5 sqdns of EFT's or j31's would be a better deterrent



A joint chiefs of staff committee exists and I trust their calculated decisions


----------



## MilSpec

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> A joint chiefs of staff committee exists and I trust their calculated decisions



Do remember who were part of these committees, Zia, musharrafs and the likes... trustworthy bunch indeed... !

chairmen Joint chief, Army - 11, Navy - 2, Air Force - 1....


----------



## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> Well sir, in that case it is Karma catching up with you.
> 
> About your oft-aired views: Need to move on sir. PAF strategy makes sense only in backdrop of inflicting unacceptable damage to an aggressor. With the state of economy today, that is just as well. At least I do not foresee any invasion or strike from India if we play our cards right. China has well shown that one could avoid war and grow while bear-hugging your adversary. We could learn from that.
> 
> You have often remarked that a superior weapon system could lead to a satisfactory solution of Kashmir issue. I disagree. After Kargil, no weapon system can substitute the strategic damage done by ourselves. Your estimation of the impact of a weapon system perhaps reflects your background. But do understand that the world does not necessarily run its course according to how one wishes to see it happen. Reality is far more complex than what you allow for in your analysis relating to acquisition of a particular weapon system and its purported impact.
> 
> We in Pakistan need ten years of growth, diversification of energy sourcing, close to 100% school attendance, lesser degree of ideological disorientation, and a dogged determination to achieving objectives. No weapon package would help us along the path. Some vocal detractors say that we are 'fooling' ourselves with JF17, but its impact on national psyche can not be ignored. In that this program is worth more than the money spent on it.




Hi,

Indeed----so the story goes like this---after Gov Ameer Mohammad Khan's son murdered him---they wanted to dump his body somewhere---and one of the older men told a little story----.

Sons were tired of their old miserable father---so they decided to kill him. They all decided to go for a picnic on the canal bank. After the picnic kids and women moved away---men stayed at one place----the boys knew it was time---so they picked up their father by the legs and feet and started swinging him to throw in in the canal----the old man cried---'stop stop stop'----don't kill me here----but you can kill me over there---a little further down that spot----. The boys asked why----you would die either way---. The old man replied----' this is the spot where I threw my father in the canal '----.

So----what is the moral of the story----if you want to beat the sh-it out of your old man---got to think of something new and different---hehn-----.

Kargil was the episode that brought india and pakistan to the peace table and almost signing of the deal---. Don't put down kargil as a negative for pakistan---.

Indira Ghandhi was right about pakistani generals----they have no vision---no tactics---no gumption---no future analysis planning---.

We need to have a way to find out if pak military has a wing or a think tank for future analysis---how they think and what they decide----is it just the commanders of the forces or a whole group who decides---.

Looking at the procurement by air force----the systems is extremely poorly managed and the analyists extremely poor thinkers.

See----if pak wanted the F16---then they should have gone for the blk 52 the day after they agreed to join the coalition---. They should have the condition for F16 delivery on a fast track---.

By now----we should have had 150---200 F16 new from u s---and used from other nations that retired them and upgrades as well.

It was not there---PAF was lollygagging all thru this time---. They lied to the nation---they lied to themselves---. This was the LONGEWALLA episode all over again----. 

PAF has more traitors than any other force in the country---.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Pfpilot

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Indeed----so the story goes like this---after Gov Ameer Mohammad Khan's son murdered him---they wanted to dump his body somewhere---and one of the older men told a little story----.
> 
> Sons were tired of their old miserable father---so they decided to kill him. They all decided to go for a picnic on the canal bank. After the picnic kids and women moved away---men stayed at one place----the boys knew it was time---so they picked up their father by the legs and feet and started swinging him to throw in in the canal----the old man cried---'stop stop stop'----don't kill me here----but you can kill me over there---a little further down that spot----. The boys asked why----you would die either way---. The old man replied----' this is the spot where I threw my father in the canal '----.
> 
> So----what is the moral of the story----if you want to beat the sh-it out of your old man---got to think of something new and different---hehn-----.
> 
> Kargil was the episode that brought india and pakistan to the peace table and almost signing of the deal---. Don't put down kargil as a negative for pakistan---.
> 
> Indira Ghandhi was right about pakistani generals----they have no vision---no tactics---no gumption---no future analysis planning---.
> 
> We need to have a way to find out if pak military has a wing or a think tank for future analysis---how they think and what they decide----is it just the commanders of the forces or a whole group who decides---.
> 
> Looking at the procurement by air force----the systems is extremely poorly managed and the analyists extremely poor thinkers.
> 
> See----if pak wanted the F16---then they should have gone for the blk 52 the day after they agreed to join the coalition---. They should have the condition for F16 delivery on a fast track---.
> 
> By now----we should have had 150---200 F16 new from u s---and used from other nations that retired them and upgrades as well.
> 
> It was not there---PAF was lollygagging all thru this time---. They lied to the nation---they lied to themselves---. This was the LONG-16 EWALLA episode all over again----.
> 
> PAF has more traitors than any other force in the country---.



The Egyptian Air Force is an example of the benefits of allying one's self with the Americans. They have a massive f-16 force, albeit one with severely limited capability. But a nation cannot traitorously switch sides and then be expected to be trusted fully; especially when it's hobby was to repeatedly attack one of America's core allies. Two of the four largest operators of f-16s are Muslim nations. Our issue cannot then be as simple as America constantly trying to destroy the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Our failure to procure more f-16s is a byproduct of the the double agent like role Pakistan has played in WOT; a guilty conscious.

At no point after 9/11 has it seemed that the Pakistani government or populace felt the Americans would follow through on their promises. Military deals were slow to form and few in number. Until the Pakistani military could be sure of covering all corners in a potential scenario of all encompassing sanctions post-WOT, it was reluctant to procure anything but the most rudimentary equipment. While the history of US-Pak relations completely justifies the paranoia; it does not explain the self fulfilling prophecy the whole ordeal has turned into. While we never trusted the Americans, we had no qualms in going behind their back and supporting the very entity they were trying to eliminate. Our fear that the Americans would eventually abandon us, resulted in us creating the very situation that turned the worst case scenario into reality. Through out this last decade, it has been Pakistan that has come across as unreliable and untrustworthy.

Today, it is all irrelevant. The damage is done, the Americans have seen past Pakistan's game and would be unlikely to supply anything of importance ever again. But there was a time when the future path of US-Pak relations was in our hands. We hedged our bets and failed miserably in the endeavor. We could have technically made deals for far more US equipment, but it is my opinion that Pakistan never expected the relationship to last. For that I blame our government for letting the past cloud their judgement to the degree that they squandered the present and future. Of course, in an ideal world, we would avoid embroiling ourselves in grand games with the US and quietly toe the line. But the reality is we attempted to enter into a relationship of equals with the US; failed to benefit from it and now find ourselves cursing the Americans for not being more helpful.

We should have done as the Turks, the Saudis, and the Egyptians did. Quietly fall in line with the wishes of the super power and then reap the benefits. Those other nations were not thinking of some noble global Islamic cause. Why were we? Our problem was India, we needed equipment to face the IAF, IA, and IN...much like the Turks armed themselves to dominate the Greeks. One must pick his battles; sacrifice and compromise in one corner in order to benefit where it is needed most. We should have sold out everyone from the Taliban, to the TTP, to any other entity the Americans perceived as the enemy. Had we crushed them, not only would we no longer be fighting a long and protracted war with those same elements. We would have a far more potent force singularly focused on the western border. Once again, I am no fan of our master-servant relationship with the US or China. But in a world where we repeatedly jump into an ocean filled with sharks, we must stop trying to fight a creature that will finish us in one bite. Either play along or don't swim at all.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## muse

Pfpilot:

Please don't present history in such personal terms - The problems between US and Pakistan are not new (see _Friends Not Masters_ ) - and should have quietly just fallen in line? That's just what it did - Please understand that the dominant narrative in both countries runs counter to the aims of the govt , that is to say that it's problematic, politically speaking - that's just reality - And therefore, time to move on, for both the US and Pakistan - if we can craft relations based on economic or commercial relations that are fortified by if not a respect than certainly not disrespect for the civilization heritage that we are from, all the better, but don't hold your breath for that to happen in the near future.

Anyways, let me ask, if US is now an ally of India (and it is), why is it that you are suggesting that we continue to see the Indian as an enemy, does not that not by extension mean we continue to see US as an enemy?? To clarify, I'm not suggesting some love fest with the Indian, but perhaps we may move away from hysterics and towards sobriety - See, we can, if we had to, vaporize the Indian, in the blink on an eye, we would be dead, but so would they -- all this F16 stuff has now outlived it's utility - Tomorrow if the US wants India to throw it's weight around, how will 1000 PAF F16 that US controls (Who How and When), effect the situation?? It seems some argue that just the possession of F16 is somehow meant to induce sobriety in an adversary, whereas in the case of Pakistan, the terms under which Pakistan may operate the system are designed to introduce sobriety not on an adversary but rather the operator, is this not the case? Should we not, now, therefore, use this time to build our domestic industrial defense capability and infrastructure?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

sandy_3126 said:


> Do remember who were part of these committees, Zia, musharrafs and the likes... trustworthy bunch indeed... !
> 
> chairmen Joint chief, Army - 11, Navy - 2, Air Force - 1....



Um yeah and decisions are consensus based

Gen Zia never was Chairman of the Comittee. Please know what you are talking about first before peddling misinformation.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Gentelman said:


> when PAF is getting Spada??
> wt about third squadron of JF-17..are we geeting J-10 Bor not??
> I heard about deal of 36 J-10 on some papers and some websites.....
> there were some specific requirements by PAF on those birds.....



We've had spada for some years now.


----------



## Chrome9

Pfpilot said:


> The Egyptian Air Force is an example of the benefits of allying one's self with the Americans. They have a massive f-16 force, albeit one with severely limited capability. But a nation cannot traitorously switch sides and then be expected to be trusted fully; especially when it's hobby was to repeatedly attack one of America's core allies. Two of the four largest operators of f-16s are Muslim nations. Our issue cannot then be as simple as America constantly trying to destroy the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Our failure to procure more f-16s is a byproduct of the the double agent like role Pakistan has played in WOT; a guilty conscious.
> 
> At no point after 9/11 has it seemed that the Pakistani government or populace felt the Americans would follow through on their promises. Military deals were slow to form and few in number. Until the Pakistani military could be sure of covering all corners in a potential scenario of all encompassing sanctions post-WOT, it was reluctant to procure anything but the most rudimentary equipment. While the history of US-Pak relations completely justifies the paranoia; it does not explain the self fulfilling prophecy the whole ordeal has turned into. While we never trusted the Americans, we had no qualms in going behind their back and supporting the very entity they were trying to eliminate. Our fear that the Americans would eventually abandon us, resulted in us creating the very situation that turned the worst case scenario into reality. Through out this last decade, it has been Pakistan that has come across as unreliable and untrustworthy.
> 
> Today, it is all irrelevant. The damage is done, the Americans have seen past Pakistan's game and would be unlikely to supply anything of importance ever again. But there was a time when the future path of US-Pak relations was in our hands. We hedged our bets and failed miserably in the endeavor. We could have technically made deals for far more US equipment, but it is my opinion that Pakistan never expected the relationship to last. For that I blame our government for letting the past cloud their judgement to the degree that they squandered the present and future. Of course, in an ideal world, we would avoid embroiling ourselves in grand games with the US and quietly toe the line. But the reality is we attempted to enter into a relationship of equals with the US; failed to benefit from it and now find ourselves cursing the Americans for not being more helpful.
> 
> We should have done as the Turks, the Saudis, and the Egyptians did. Quietly fall in line with the wishes of the super power and then reap the benefits. Those other nations were not thinking of some noble global Islamic cause. Why were we? Our problem was India, we needed equipment to face the IAF, IA, and IN...much like the Turks armed themselves to dominate the Greeks. One must pick his battles; sacrifice and compromise in one corner in order to benefit where it is needed most. We should have sold out everyone from the Taliban, to the TTP, to any other entity the Americans perceived as the enemy. Had we crushed them, not only would we no longer be fighting a long and protracted war with those same elements. We would have a far more potent force singularly focused on the western border. Once again, I am no fan of our master-servant relationship with the US or China. But in a world where we repeatedly jump into an ocean filled with sharks, we must stop trying to fight a creature that will finish us in one bite. Either play along or don't swim at all.



Skewed analysis and quite self pitying point of view you have there - I agree with muse here - At no point should Pakistan abandon it's own national interest for that of another country. Our Geo-political and strategic interests are sacrosanct and under no circumstances come secondary to any foreign power - be that the USA. 

The two air forces you site as references namely Turkey and Egypt are hardly models Pakistan should follow. I'd take what Pakistan has over what Egypt has any day of the week - We don't have a toothless over burdening F-16 fleet which can't be used against our number one adversary in the time of need. Turkey is hardly comparable but even the Turks are beginning to get weary of uncle SAM's tight bear hug. What the the PAF did was the best it could under the prevailing circumstances - Build an almost Parallel air force of Chinese and western origin air craft with maximum redundancy and minimum dependence. 

As for hedging our bets with the Taliban - well the results are in front of all to see - The Us and its allies are withdrawing in 2014 and actively seeking dialogue with the Taliban and attempting to accommodate them in any future set up in some elaborate re conciliatory effort.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Donatello

muse said:


> Pfpilot:
> 
> Please don't present history in such personal terms - The problems between US and Pakistan are not new (see _Friends Not Masters_ ) - and should have quietly just fallen in line? That's just what it did - Please understand that the dominant narrative in both countries runs counter to the aims of the govt , that is to say that it's problematic, politically speaking - that's just reality - And therefore, time to move on, for both the US and Pakistan - if we can craft relations based on economic or commercial relations that are fortified by if not a respect than certainly not disrespect for the civilization heritage that we are from, all the better, but don't hold your breath for that to happen in the near future.
> 
> Anyways, let me ask, if US is now an ally of India (and it is), why is it that you are suggesting that we continue to see the Indian as an enemy, does not that not by extension mean we continue to see US as an enemy?? To clarify, I'm not suggesting some love fest with the Indian, but perhaps we may move away from hysterics and towards sobriety - See, we can, if we had to, vaporize the Indian, in the blink on an eye, we would be dead, but so would they -- all this F16 stuff has now outlived it's utility - Tomorrow if the US wants India to throw it's weight around, how will 1000 PAF F16 that US controls (Who How and When), effect the situation?? It seems some argue that just the possession of F16 is somehow meant to induce sobriety in an adversary, whereas in the case of Pakistan, the terms under which Pakistan may operate the system are designed to introduce sobriety not on an adversary but rather the operator, is this not the case? Should we not, now, therefore, use this time to build our domestic industrial defense capability and infrastructure?



MastanKhan's point has been that JF-17 is not a bad deal, it's just it came too little too late. JF-17 in the next 5-10 years might be even superior to F-16blk52s, but it comes too late.

That's the issue.

Reactions: Like Like:
 1


----------



## MastanKhan

Donatello said:


> MastanKhan's point has been that JF-17 is not a bad deal, it's just it came too little too late. JF-17 in the next 5-10 years might be even superior to F-16blk52s, but it comes too late.
> 
> That's the issue.



Hi,

Thank you sir---that is all there is to weapons systems----it is all in the timing---. What you are going to deploy today---you had to decide 5---10 years ago and plan accordingly---


PFpilot,

What a great post---. You see pak did not have to show any allegiance to taliban---because they had nowhere else to run to than pakistan----which means that they were a captive audience---. The taliban should have been punished and made to ralize of their folly in supporting al qaeda---.

But the main problem stays with pakistanis themselves---a lack of identity---a nation not sincere to itself---a citizenery who cannot honor their identity mand pride of ownership of the land that they live in---they don't deserve to be a nation and h
ave a land to call their nation.



Chak Bamu said:


> Well sir, in that case it is Karma catching up with you.
> 
> You have often remarked that a superior weapon system could lead to a satisfactory solution of Kashmir issue. I disagree. After Kargil, no weapon system can substitute the strategic damage done by ourselves. Your estimation of the impact of a weapon system perhaps reflects your background. But do understand that the world does not necessarily run its course according to how one wishes to see it happen. Reality is far more complex than what you allow for in your analysis relating to acquisition of a particular weapon system and its purported impact.
> 
> Sir,
> 
> You are going around in circles----an example of those who just want to justify in-action by stating that it would be worthless---.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> You are going around in circles----an example of those who just want to justify in-action by stating that it would be worthless---.



Have I advocated inaction? I do not believe so. I have just emphasized the importance of action in improving our economy. The way I see events unfolding, for the next two to three years, there are zero chances of war. After this time, we shall be in better shape. Our energy woes might be on decline (Neelam - Jehlum Power project, other misc. hydel power projects, at least three thermal power projects, Iran-Pak Gas pipeline, etc...). Our economy would likely be looking to grow beyond current 3%. Post 2014 fallout of WOT would definitely have been managed.

We desperately need to spend on infrastructure and social services otherwise there is no hope. No expensive weapon program would help us here. 

Where do you see JF-17 program post-2015? In better shape I hope?


----------



## Pfpilot

muse said:


> Pfpilot:
> 
> Please don't present history in such personal terms - The problems between US and Pakistan are not new (see _Friends Not Masters_ ) - and should have quietly just fallen in line? That's just what it did - Please understand that the dominant narrative in both countries runs counter to the aims of the govt , that is to say that it's problematic, politically speaking - that's just reality - And therefore, time to move on, for both the US and Pakistan - if we can craft relations based on economic or commercial relations that are fortified by if not a respect than certainly not disrespect for the civilization heritage that we are from, all the better, but don't hold your breath for that to happen in the near future.
> 
> Anyways, let me ask, if US is now an ally of India (and it is), why is it that you are suggesting that we continue to see the Indian as an enemy, does not that not by extension mean we continue to see US as an enemy?? To clarify, I'm not suggesting some love fest with the Indian, but perhaps we may move away from hysterics and towards sobriety - See, we can, if we had to, vaporize the Indian, in the blink on an eye, we would be dead, but so would they -- all this F16 stuff has now outlived it's utility - Tomorrow if the US wants India to throw it's weight around, how will 1000 PAF F16 that US controls (Who How and When), effect the situation?? It seems some argue that just the possession of F16 is somehow meant to induce sobriety in an adversary, whereas in the case of Pakistan, the terms under which Pakistan may operate the system are designed to introduce sobriety not on an adversary but rather the operator, is this not the case? Should we not, now, therefore, use this time to build our domestic industrial defense capability and infrastructure?



That's an astute observation. I may have done, what is akin to cherry picking facts. If there is a defense, then it was my interest in (relatively) fast tracking the argument I was presenting. I already have a tendency to write in a 1000 words what more capable members can explain in 200.

While you aren't suggesting a love fest with India, I have actually been very vocally supportive of such a future. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't have extensive friendly relations. But that is my opinion. My original point was made while keeping the geopolitical reality in mind. A military as powerful as ours (politically) cannot exist if there is no enemy. If I am to propose that the Taliban and the likes be dealt with, it invariably requires a renewed focus on "aggressor" India. If we suddenly stopped seeing enemies like mirages in the desert, then this whole conversation is irrelevant. We wouldn't need f-16s or even f-7s if there wasn't a constant boogeyman at the doorstep.

I actually do feel that a large force of f-16s would have provided a deterrent in their very presence. My issues with the platform only extend as far as procurement of highly fatigued USN airframes. Otherwise it's potential presence in large numbers would have been a game changer in the approx. 15 year gap in the initial procurement and arrival of Rafales in the IAF. I say this because I am of the opinion that any chance of a Pak-Indo peace that doesn't skew the compromises in India's favor was required in the 2000s. The Indian growth is too strong today and the head start they have on us is too formidable for us to make any dent in the disadvantaged situation we find ourselves in, relative to them. With the leverage India has at this point, peace is unlikely without sever concessions from Pakistan. As such, it is almost impossible. The f-16s could have made a difference before this became a reality, before Pakistan's own equally formidable short term growth was proven to be unsustainable.

The impact of US restrictions has been overblown. What the sanctions would do to PAF after a war does not diminish what it will be able to accomplish during the war. And that is most likely the view of the IAF. The idea is to have a force formidable enough that any future war, of any intensity is so potentially damaging to Indian assets that they are forced to the peace table. The fact that the force would be unable to fight again at that same level would not be much consolation to the Indian forces if Pakistan was causing tangible damage to it's adversaries war fighting capability in the here and now. 

As others have pointed out, capabilities are relative and the f-16 in numbers could have done what the jf-17 won't be able to do when it is a matured platform. That is to swiftly close the gap between the IAF and PAF. Minimum deference? Sure, but anything more than maintaining the status quo is impossible with our current procurement plans.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## muse

Pfpilot said:


> My original point was made while keeping the geopolitical reality in mind. A military as powerful as ours (politically) cannot exist if there is no enemy.* If I am to propose that the Taliban and the likes be dealt with, it invariably requires a renewed focus on "aggressor" India... *
> 
> I actually do *feel* that a large force of f-16s would have provided a deterrent i*n their very presence*. *My issues with the platform only extend as far as procurement of highly fatigued USN airframes. Otherwise it's potential presence in large numbers would have been a game changer* in the approx. 15 year gap in the initial procurement and arrival of Rafales in the IAF. *I say this because I am of the opinion that any chance of a Pak-Indo peace that doesn't skew the compromises in India's favor was required in the 2000s. The Indian growth is too strong today and the head start they have on us is too formidable for us to make any dent in the disadvantaged situation we find ourselves in, relative to them. With the leverage India has at this point, peace is unlikely without sever concessions from Pakistan. As such, it is almost impossible. The f-16s could have made a difference before this became a reality, before Pakistan's own equally formidable short term growth was proven to be unsustainable.*
> 
> *The impact of US restrictions has been overblown. What the sanctions would do to PAF after a war does not diminish what it will be able to accomplish during the war.* And that is most likely the view of the IAF. *The idea is to have a force formidable enough that any future war, of any intensity is so potentially damaging to Indian assets that they are forced to the peace table. The fact that the force would be unable to fight again at that same level would not be much consolation to the Indian forces if Pakistan was causing tangible damage to it's adversaries war fighting capability in the here and now*.
> 
> *As others have pointed out*, capabilities are relative and the f-16 in numbers could have done what the jf-17 won't be able to do when it is a matured platform. That is to swiftly close the gap between the IAF and PAF. *Minimum deference? Sure, but anything more than maintaining the status quo is impossible with our current procurement plans*.




Thank you for your post, I do take your point about putting together your thoughts at a 1000 words a minute, I find myself in that situation often - You will note the I have bolded and highlighted some points you made

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

Pfpilot,

My assessment is that paf got carried away by the idea of the JF 17---a plane manufactured by an air force for an air force---. They were pis-sed of at the americans and they wanted to show the americans that the paf could not be messed with-----an utter stupidity on the part of paf---.

All the planning of the paf got shoved right up when the americans told the french not to proceed with the radar and electronics package for the jf17---.

Jf 17 would have been a good idea for a state with no serious worries from an enemy state----just to play around develop the technology--but to make this aircraft the backbone of the pak airforce and then failing with the project and not supplying the state of an air worthy and a tactically capable air craft in A TIMELY FASHION is tantamount to gross negligence rather treason.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## muse

MK



> but to make this aircraft the backbone of the pak airforce and then failing with the project and not supplying the state of an air worthy and a tactically capable air craft in A TIMELY FASHION is tantamount to gross negligence rather treason


.

That's rather harsh MK, Are you certain that the JFT is not air worthy and not tactically capable?


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

I am not harsh---I am just writing what I am looking at---paf has lied all through these years---. You have to go back and read what I wrote about this aircraft initially---. I told you guys as to how long it would take to integrate this aircraft---you remember how members over here made fun of me----now all their mouths are shut in shame----they have not apologized yet---.

If I was right about this aircraft step by a step----3 years ago---there has nothing come up so far that would change my assessment---as a matter of fact---it would have lesser capabilities than before---originally with french electronics and weaponery would have compensated from other weaknesses----.

Paf stuck with this aircraft out of shame and embarrassment----of what india or others would say---F16's new and used were the weapon of choice after 9/11----if cost was a factor---.

Why do you want to be 15 years behind the curve after 5 years


----------



## muse

MK

You are offering rhetoric, not facts - block 15 is not as capable of 52, it takes time for any platform - how much time for JFYT I don't know - but I don't think we can come to conclusion you have, because we don't have information to conclude either way - secondly JFT from the start was to replace the Mirage, A5 and later F7, it was not claimed that it is the technological answer to every aircraft.

I'm not suggesting that your conclusion is right or wrong, just that we don't have the information to do so - I think we might keep our powder dry on that.

As for the contention that we have to worry about Indian on a priority basis - that's a tough sell -

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Contrarian

muse said:


> As for the contention that we have to worry about Indian on a priority basis - that's a tough sell -



It would not be a tough sell were there to be a major terrorist attack on Indian soil. 
And Pakistan Army is the singular greatest beneficiary of the fall out - uncannily. 

So unless there is a decided political mandate from the Pakistani Govt to the Pakistani Army, so strong and unequivocal, maybe even threatening, that PA - as immune as it is from any kind of Govt pressure and oversight - does not violate it. Then you have lasting peace.

Edit: Although it has to be said that GoI has now realized the limited control over PA, and the noises made by political leaders after 26/11 were most helpful - to the extent that Pakistani's dont even realize - in averting a natural military kick back that GoI would have started. Very helpful indeed.


----------



## fatman17

muse said:


> MK
> 
> You are offering rhetoric, not facts - block 15 is not as capable of 52, it takes time for any platform - how much time for JFYT I don't know - but I don't think we can come to conclusion you have, because we don't have information to conclude either way - secondly JFT from the start was to replace the Mirage, A5 and later F7, it was not claimed that it is the technological answer to every aircraft.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that your conclusion is right or wrong, just that we don't have the information to do so - I think we might keep our powder dry on that.
> 
> As for the contention that we have to worry about Indian on a priority basis - that's a tough sell -



my dear muse - it would be good to put the record straight. in the early 2000's, the JFT project was in the doldrums until the late ACM MAMir decided to 'delink' the selection of the avionics and weapons package from the main project. this basically 'fast-tracked' the development. design and selection of the powerplant and the aircraft was able to make its 'maiden' flights and six prototypes were quickly built. the rest is as they say is history. with the a few modifications like the 'air-intakes (DSI) etc the JFT is very close in design (only) to the JAS Gripen. and yes the JFT was developed to replace all our 60's designed aircraft in the next 5-7 years which was / is an ambitious plan. replacing nearly 300 aircraft! wow!. while this is going on, rightly or wrongly, the PAF continues to convince the US to supply more F-16's through EDA or new built - this was / is a good strategy to have a mix of high / med tech aircraft in the inventory. additionally the chance to acquire 40 odd J-10's as a 'back-up' if the US decides to not supply (which it hasnt) more F-16's. what has 'delayed' all this planning has been the lack of 'funds' at the right time to keep this program on 'track'. we can only hope that the economy improves (it cannot get any worse than it is today) and for the armed forces to 'overtly' demand such funds at this time would be very bad PR (they arnt good at this anyway). only the 'real' experts can tell us how good the JFT is performance wise but from the looks of it, it aint doing too shabbilly.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MilSpec

@Pfpilot and @MastanKhan, Maybe Jft is an interim option along with the limited f16's til the 2020 and then PAF might have a bigger plans of fielding , mix of J20's and j31 or unspecified chinese 5th gen a/c against perdominantly 4/4.5th gen IAf with few 5th gen pakfa's... PAF might just pull a fast one on IAF...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Gentelman

sandy_3126 said:


> @Pfpilot and @MastanKhan, Maybe Jft is an interim option along with the limited f16's til the 2020 and then PAF might have a bigger plans of fielding , mix of J20's and j31 or unspecified chinese 5th gen a/c against perdominantly 4/4.5th gen IAf with few 5th gen pakfa's... PAF might just pull a fast one on IAF...



PAF for 5th gen will choose one of chineese jet you mentioned.....
well in 4-4.5 gen JFT would be developed...
as long as it takes it to develop and mature i suppose PAF would look forward for F-16 blkC/D or J-10B(more improved as PAF requirements)...
bt main concentration of PAF is on locally produced jet for airforce(developed with china JFT)....
as 4.5 gen i suppose blk 3 of JF-17 was aimed with AESA,IRST,Hardpoints and engine improvements and more load to carry,more composites and RCS lowered...
britans offered AESA for blk 1 bt was rejected by PAF and then PAF was blacklisted coz of nuclear experiment..
bt not sanctions are removed soo we can hope that Block 3 would be that what was pre planned.....


----------



## MilSpec

Gentelman said:


> PAF for 5th gen will choose one of chineese jet you mentioned.....
> well in 4-4.5 gen JFT would be developed...
> as long as it takes it to develop and mature i suppose PAF would look forward for F-16 blkC/D or J-10B(more improved as PAF requirements)...
> bt main concentration of PAF is on locally produced jet for airforce(developed with china JFT)....
> as 4.5 gen i suppose blk 3 of JF-17 was aimed with AESA,IRST,Hardpoints and engine improvements and more load to carry,more composites and RCS lowered...
> *britans offered AESA* for blk 1 bt was rejected by PAF and then PAF was blacklisted coz of nuclear experiment..
> bt not sanctions are removed soo we can hope that Block 3 would be that what was pre planned.....


I am quite skeptical about the Britain offered aesa part!!


----------



## Gentelman

sandy_3126 said:


> I am quite skeptical about the Britain offered aesa part!!



forum.*********************/index.php?showtopic=54339
defence form India in LCA and JF-17 comparison thread
wiki
Jf-17 fb page
rupee news
rupeenews.com/2012/01/beyond-pakistani-made-jf-17-thunders/
and in 2-3 magzines i read about that...
1of the magzine was Global Science in urdu language....


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

5th gen aircraft for paf is a little too far fetched---there are too many growing pains with this aircraft----too many technical issues-----pak is better off for a while with a true 4.5 gen aircraft---missiles and radar systems to counter the 5th gen.

Muse:----I don't have a problem people disagreeing with me on the jf17 issue---. Just because it is a replacement for he A5's and mirage 3 / 5 does not mean it had to be ordinary----the A5 and mirage 3 /5 were obsolete pieces of equipment---.

Most of you will agree with me in another 2---3 years.

Any aircraft that was needed to be replaced should have been of a minimum capability of the F16 Blk 52 in the current stage or in MLU upgrade----not a test bed----.

Paks need to get their heads out of the tar---when you face an enemy the size of india---you don't go manufacturing a test bed---you need something that will work for you and fight for you NOW------you may decide to develop something on the side and that is fine.

WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT FOR YOU PAKS TO UNDERSTAND THAT ANALOGY-----that is how nations act----. But then you have proved many a times that 'you are not a nation'---.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Pfpilot

MastanKhan said:


> Pfpilot,
> 
> My assessment is that paf got carried away by the idea of the JF 17---a plane manufactured by an air force for an air force---. They were pis-sed of at the americans and they wanted to show the americans that the paf could not be messed with-----an utter stupidity on the part of paf---.
> 
> All the planning of the paf got shoved right up when the americans told the french not to proceed with the radar and electronics package for the jf17---.
> 
> Jf 17 would have been a good idea for a state with no serious worries from an enemy state----just to play around develop the technology--but to make this aircraft the backbone of the pak airforce and then failing with the project and not supplying the state of an air worthy and a tactically capable air craft in A TIMELY FASHION is tantamount to gross negligence rather treason.



When I first heard about the concept of an Air Force directly involved in the development of a fighter aircraft, it set the alarm bells ringing. That initial shock doesn't seem unwarranted when the PAF seems directly involved in marketing and selling aircraft and hasn't exactly done the best job. The indigenous production of any kind of product should first meet the criteria of demand; a large domestic demand and opportunities for international expansion. Even if the second point is less relevant initially, domestic demand should be accounted for. Pakistan's requirement isn't huge, nor is Pakistan able to pay for the jf-17s being procured. What you have is a fighter subsidized by the Chinese government, hardly the way a local development should go.

On the other hand, the criticisms of the technological capabilities of the jf-17s have little to do with the aircraft itself. The lack of air superiority option and limited number of f-16s lead to the jf-17s being perceived as the be all and end all of PAF capability. Were we in possession of a larger f-16 fleet or even a sizable j-10 force, this conversation would not be happening. That raises a couple of questions: is it the jf-17 that fails in what it was developed for? Or is it the lack of developments in augmenting the capabilities it offers?

I agree with your sentiments. But find I am sometimes guilty of placing the short comings of the PAF directly at the feet of the jf-17. As one of the very few tangible developments of the PAF in the last two decades, it may just be an easy target because the PAF doesn't possess anything else of value to even point a finger at.



sandy_3126 said:


> @Pfpilot and @MastanKhan, Maybe Jft is an interim option along with the limited f16's til the 2020 and then PAF might have a bigger plans of fielding , mix of J20's and j31 or unspecified chinese 5th gen a/c against perdominantly 4/4.5th gen IAf with few 5th gen pakfa's... PAF might just pull a fast one on IAF...



The question is of money. Otherwise, even the most short sighted developments can be glossed over. Pakistan doesn't have the kind of money in the present, nor the medium term forecast for sizable economic growth in the future. Under such circumstances, a scenario in which the PAF can field a force with a significant 5th gen component seems far fetched.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

@Pfpilot, @muse.
the other thing to note is 'upgrades'. generally within 2-3 years after uinduction of the base model, upgrades are undertaken to keep the platform 'upto date' with contemporary adversaries. EFT is already undergoing Tranche I and II upgrades. so will Rafale and Gripen as their numbers increase (esp. for export). similarly the JFT program is doing exactly the same. 50 Blk-I, and now the Blk-II program will start and so on. depending on need and funds availability, the Blk-i's would be upgraded to Blk-II. granted the JFT will not be compared to the likes of EFT, Rafale etc but it was never supposed to be - the JFT was designed to counter india's LCA program. the PAF will need to decide quickly to increase their F-16' assets or purchase the J-10B in large numbers for their high end aircraft.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Armstrong

fatman17 said:


> @Pfpilot, @muse.
> the other thing to note is 'upgrades'. generally within 2-3 years after uinduction of the base model, upgrades are undertaken to keep the platform 'upto date' with contemporary adversaries. EFT is already undergoing Tranche I and II upgrades. so will Rafale and Gripen as their numbers increase (esp. for export). similarly the JFT program is doing exactly the same. 50 Blk-I, and now the Blk-II program will start and so on. depending on need and funds availability, the Blk-i's would be upgraded to Blk-II. granted the JFT will not be compared to the likes of EFT, Rafale etc but it was never supposed to be - the JFT was designed to counter india's LCA program. the PAF will need to decide quickly to increase their F-16' assets or purchase the J-10B in large numbers for their high end aircraft.



I remember asking @Oscar, something along the lines of, how far does the PAF envision the JF-17 to be upgradeable to & he said, unless I'm mistaken, roughly comparable to F-16 Block 40s ! @Oscar : I do apologize if I've misquoted you & do correct me, if you will !  

However if the Block 40 thing is taken to be the truth than shouldn't that be an admirable 'low' ? Shouldn't a 'mid' tier of our current crop of F-16s be sufficient & shouldn't we be looking into the J-31 as a possible 'High' end platform ? Or even the Indonesian, Turkish & Korean 5th Generation aircraft that are proposed to be designed & manufactured ?


----------



## niaz

It all does boils down FUNDS. Understand the 3rd squadron of JF17 is not yet fully operational and development of Thunder block 2 is also delayed.

Everyone must understand that Pak economy is in real bad shape and under these circumstances we should not expect our wish list to be fulfilled. Like it or not this is the ground reality.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Luftwaffe

Moderators i don't know where else to post it, you may move it to appropriate Thread.

Feb 25 2013
F-7PG being tested in Flight Test Center, China. But I thought PG was for PAF, what is going on anyone?


----------



## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> Moderators i don't know where else to post it, you may move it to appropriate Thread.
> 
> Feb 25 2013
> F-7PG being tested in Flight Test Center, China. But I thought PG was for PAF, what is going on anyone?



Testbed for F-7BGI


----------



## Luftwaffe

Oscar where do i move this image i don't want to upload it to some image site but it is ok if uploaded and managed by defence.pk

South Korean F-5 Freedom Fighter checked out by PAF, 1987.

http://sdrv.ms/XczFi1

South Korean F-4D Phantom II checked out by PAF, 1987.

http://sdrv.ms/YBpD5N


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

few questions, @sancho , @gambit , @Oscar 
@ptldM3 

 @Abingdonboy
or anybody who is pretty sure about it. 
1. Is there any solid state aesa jammer on board on any fighter jet ?
2. can anti radiation missile lock on to aesa radar signals and home on ? 
3. is anti radiation missiles needs to be guided by any other active method till the anti radiation seeker gets activated ? if yes at what distance ?
4. can today's bvr missiles (it's mono pulse seeker ) lock on to stealth jet's(will it detect them, if detects will it recognise them as a threat because of extreme low rcs or will it classify it as a bird, clutter or any other false alarm ?


----------



## Thorough Pro

Sorry this is confidential info, can not be shared on this forum.



Agnostic_Indian said:


> few questions, @sancho , @gambit , @Oscar
> @ptldM3
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy
> or anybody who is pretty sure about it.
> 1. Is there any solid state aesa jammer on board on any fighter jet ?
> 2. can anti radiation missile lock on to aesa radar signals and home on ?
> 3. is anti radiation missiles needs to be guided by any other active method till the anti radiation seeker gets activated ? if yes at what distance ?
> 4. can today's bvr missiles (it's mono pulse seeker ) lock on to stealth jet's(will it detect them, if detects will it recognise them as a threat because of extreme low rcs or will it classify it as a bird, clutter or any other false alarm ?


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Thorough Pro said:


> Sorry this is confidential info, can not be shared on this forum.



well then keep it with yourself.


----------



## SQ8

Agnostic_Indian said:


> few questions, @sancho , @gambit , @Oscar
> @ptldM3
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy
> or anybody who is pretty sure about it.
> 1. Is there any solid state aesa jammer on board on any fighter jet ?
> 2. can anti radiation missile lock on to aesa radar signals and home on ?
> 3. is anti radiation missiles needs to be guided by any other active method till the anti radiation seeker gets activated ? if yes at what distance ?
> 4. can today's bvr missiles (it's mono pulse seeker ) lock on to stealth jet's(will it detect them, if detects will it recognise them as a threat because of extreme low rcs or will it classify it as a bird, clutter or any other false alarm ?



1. An AESA radar can be theoretically used as a jammer as well. Both the APG-79 and APG-81 have this capability near testing phase.

2. As long as the AESA is not emitting in LPI mode. Yes.

3. Datalinks are possible between launch platform and missile. but as such emission are enough to give the missle a bearing to go to.. 

4. The radar on aircraft has trouble locking onto fighters such as the F-22.. However.. if it gets close enough.. there is a high possibility that the seeker can lock onto an aircraft which has certain non-stealthy sections like the J-20 or PAK-FA

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Donatello

niaz said:


> It all does boils down FUNDS. Understand the 3rd squadron of JF17 is not yet fully operational and development of Thunder block 2 is also delayed.
> 
> Everyone must understand that Pak economy is in real bad shape and under these circumstances we should not expect our wish list to be fulfilled. Like it or not this is the ground reality.




Funds should have been appropriated before the program began. Funds that no one can touch except JF-17 program. 





Oscar said:


> Testbed for F-7BGI



Same as PAF's F-7PG?

We have the Italian radars, right?


----------



## sancho

Oscar said:


> 1. An AESA radar can be theoretically used as a jammer as well. Both the APG-79 and APG-81 have this capability near testing phase.



I think what you are talking about is electronic attack / jamming capabilities of AESA radars, which we will see in the coming years in the US and also European AESAs (under development for Rafale and EF), but Agnostic_Indian might talk about AESA jammers, as part of the EW equipment.
These are available today in the Rafale, or the EF for example, certain EW jamming pods and I guess his question is hinted on the reports about Indian upgrade and new fighters will have similar techs as well (Mig 29UPG, Super 30 and even LCA), but they are not yet part of any fighter and might depend on cost as well.


----------



## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Same as PAF's F-7PG?
> 
> We have the Italian radars, right?



We have the Grifo series.
http://www.selexgalileo.com/~/media/Files/S/Selex-Galileo/documents/press-backgrounders/04grifo-family-backgrounder.pdf


----------



## ANPP

Agnostic_Indian said:


> f
> or anybody who is pretty sure about it.
> 1. Is there any solid state aesa jammer on board on any fighter jet ?



If you are talking about jamming of AESA radar than, yes.
This "entire spectrum" is in fact very narrow for any useful application. And signal coding is useless if signal/noise ratio is almost zero. You can say AESA a PC/ network more than a radar.
But if it comes gnd based AESA, than no airborne plateform is capable of taking such a large jammer with it (power of GW). And if you are increasing jamming capability of plane than means you are destroying its conventional capabilities like Growler.
You can read many papers in ieee for that solution, but all of them either are not feasible or very less effective by modern tach.




> 2. can anti radiation missile lock on to aesa radar signals and home on ?



Yes, but pretty tough for missile. As Oscar say only upto LPI mode.




> 4. can today's bvr missiles (it's mono pulse seeker ) lock on to stealth jet's(will it detect them, if detects will it recognise them as a threat because of extreme low rcs or will it classify it as a bird, clutter or any other false alarm ?



BVR missile can lock-on fighter but again range is issue. Stealth fighter has very low RCS, so missile needs to come enough close to fighter so that threshold of RCS for missile would cross, but it is impossible for missile even with fighter radar by beyond visual range.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## bigzgvr4

what about the NEBo radar that india is building with russia and israel how does that match up in detection and jamming


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> We have the Grifo series.
> http://www.selexgalileo.com/~/media/Files/S/Selex-Galileo/documents/press-backgrounders/04grifo-family-backgrounder.pdf




Which specific one?

Also, if you scroll down, it says Grifo 500 designed for JF-17 platform? Like WTH??


----------



## gambit

Agnostic_Indian said:


> 3. is anti radiation missiles needs to be guided by any other active method till the anti radiation seeker gets activated ? if yes at what distance ?


Anti-radiation missiles are called that way because that is the *ONLY* mode of operation they use. The preferred term among many engineers is 'beamrider' because it is bit more visually descriptive.

A missile can have more than one mode of guidance operations.

- *Active guidance* is where the missile have and employs its own sensor, be it radar or infrared.

- *Passive guidance* is where the missile relies on external instructions on where is the target and where is it going to be. Understand that an instruction is not the same as a command, even though we uses the two casually. An instruction is more like an FYI whereas a command is like 'DO THIS' or 'TURN HERE'. That is not how internal missile guidance works. Other than a tail chase situation, or pure pursuit guidance, a missile must calculate intercept points that are *AHEAD* of the target. If you ever done any skeet shooting, you know what I am saying -- lead the target and shoot that empty space. So if you are going to actually command the missile, you must do all that calculations for it.

Under passive guidance are two sub-modes.

Data...The missile can receive literally electronic instructions about the target in this manner: _'You are travelling at 1000 km/hr and the target is approaching you at 30 deg to your right at 500 km/hr at 30 deg descent angle from 1000 meters relative altitude.'_ The missile then takes this information and calculate its own intercept point. Keep in mind that this is a highly dynamic situation in 3D space so the source of these instructions must keep in constant communication with the missile and that mean those figures are in constant changes.

Radar...The missile receives radar reflections off the target and the source of those transmissions are *NOT* of its own. The origin can be from a friendly parent like a standoff AWACS or a companion like a flight member, which is most likely the parent launch aircraft.

- *Beamrider guidance* is the simplest and this is where the missile simply home in the strongest transmitter/source. If the transmission is off angle, the missile will overshoot, senses that there is a loss of signal strength, alters its flight path to the last known direction of that signal strength, then hopefully reacquire. Against ground transmission sources, beamrider mode alone is sufficient because those ground targets are limited to two axes of travel and very slow compare to missile speed. The only thing that would make a ground target beamrider missile more expensive is counter-countermeasures. Two or more ground radar stations can rapidly 'blink' on/off, thereby creating confusion for the missile.

As a side note -- and an important one if you are curious -- wake homing torpedo works on the same concept except the torpedo senses water displacement or 'excitation' on surface and displacement sub-surface. Surface excitation or bubbles create -- noise. And that is sonar reception. Sub-surface displacement disturbs a set of internal gyros and accelerometers designed separately to detect torpedo body deviations from current path. Another set of gyros and accels that navigate and stabilize the torpedo serves as a reference. When the two nulls each other out, the torpedo knows it passed through the wake, then it turns around to the last known location to try to reacquire the wake. The goal for the torpedo is to minimize that time outside the wake. So when it is inside the wake cone if it senses the slightest decrease in disturbance/displacement, it will immediately turn to the opposite direction.







Radar transmissions are always more focused than wake. The result is that the torpedo have a more pronounced zig-zag path to the target than a radar beamrider missile does.

Advanced Acoustic Concepts - News Article


> Wake-homing torpedoes are guided by sensors that detect the turbulence of a ships wake. The *torpedo snakes from side to side within the cone of the wake* and follows it to the ships stern before detonation.
> 
> Nixie is streamed behind a ship on a cable and *generates a noise louder than that of the ship*, thereby decoying a torpedo away from it.



Anyway...Is it possible to have a missile that have all three modes of guidance operation? Absolutely.

How much money you got? AMRAAM ain't selling on Ebay or Amazon.



Agnostic_Indian said:


> 4. can today's bvr missiles (it's mono pulse seeker ) lock on to stealth jet's(will it detect them, if detects will it recognise them as a threat *because of extreme low rcs or will it classify it as a bird, clutter or any other false alarm ?*


If the RCS is low enough, the system will classify as a bird or clutter. Not because it is too low therefore it must be a threat. The reverse is what you are saying and that will create chaos because now every real bird must be classified as a potential threat.

A mono-pulse radar have one transmission source but splits into four antenna transmissions.






The result is four distinct reflections off the target. Comparators inside the radar computer will attempts to inform the operator of any deviation that will take the system greater than the null value the comparator circuit produces. The target must be at the intersection of those four transmissions.

Against an F-117 class body, even if the target is close enough that its RCS rises above the clutter rejection threshold, if the target is maneuvering, it will play havoc on the comparator circuits precisely because the target is shaped to reduce RCS. Remember, there are now four radar views, not one, and certain maneuvers by the target will create reflection strength that are grossly too high or too low for the comparator circuits to compensate.

A mono-pulse radar is no guarantee against an F-117 class body. The only guarantee for now is -- get even closer.

Your other questions have been adequately answered by others.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Which specific one?
> 
> Also, if you scroll down, it says Grifo 500 designed for JF-17 platform? Like WTH??



The PG's now use the Grifo-200.. with a 7 series antenna.

There was the Grifo-500 designed for JF-17 but its cost/benefits weren't as high and the KLJ-7 performed better.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zarbe Momin

Some body can give me a satisfied answer why pakistan is not going to develop its own air defence missle system. If the task given to NESCOM is not a difficult job.


----------



## Last Hope

Zarbe Momin said:


> Some body can give me a satisfied answer why pakistan is not going to develop its own air defence missle system. If the task given to NESCOM is not a difficult job.



When was the last time you paid your tax?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

Last Hope said:


> When was the last time you paid your tax?


he is german

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Neptune

How many combat aircraft, rotor fixed, ESW...etc. does PAF have? Thx.


----------



## fatman17

Neptune said:


> How many combat aircraft, rotor fixed, ESW...etc. does PAF have? Thx.



all these answers are available in PAF section - pls surf

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Nucleus

Can anyone tell why are some of them wearing glasses being pilots?
Thanks!

Full link here so you can zoom in: http://pafwallpapers.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/jf-17_thunder_no26_sqn_black_spiders.jpg


----------



## SQ8

Nucleus said:


> Can anyone tell why are some of them wearing glasses being pilots?
> Thanks!
> 
> Full link here so you can zoom in: http://pafwallpapers.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/jf-17_thunder_no26_sqn_black_spiders.jpg



Not everybody's a pilot.. 
some are the engineers working with the squadron.


----------



## S.U.R.B.

Nucleus said:


> Can anyone tell why are some of them wearing glasses being pilots?
> Thanks!
> 
> Full link here so you can zoom in: http://pafwallpapers.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/jf-17_thunder_no26_sqn_black_spiders.jpg



The are 16 pilots in the image quoted above (as far as i can see).
And none of them are wearing spectacles.


----------



## Jango

The ones with the maps and checklists on their thighs are pilots, also with the strap on chest...rest are not.


----------



## Argus Panoptes

Nucleus said:


> Can anyone tell why are some of them wearing glasses being pilots?
> Thanks!
> 
> Full link here so you can zoom in: http://pafwallpapers.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/jf-17_thunder_no26_sqn_black_spiders.jpg



Who thinks up these slogans?

What does "Black Spiders: venomous than ever" mean? Perhaps the slogan-writer wanted to say "MORE venomous than ever"?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

Argus Panoptes said:


> Who thinks up these slogans?
> 
> What does "Black Spiders: venomous than ever" mean? Perhaps the slogan-writer wanted to say "MORE venomous than ever"?



Sssh.. Thou shalt not question Pakglish... 

That is proper terse and can be used.. 
It is a much more reformed form of old colonial English..
Where "BullShit" is a verb, an adjective, a noun etc

Where Mayn't and Might'nt are still in use.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Argus Panoptes

Oscar said:


> Sssh.. Thou shalt not question Pakglish...
> 
> That is proper terse and can be used..
> It is a much more reformed form of old colonial English..
> Where "BullShit" is a verb, an adjective, a noun etc
> 
> Where Mayn't and Might'nt are still in use.



I stand corrected Sir.

Obviously my Pakglish is not as good as my English, so I shall try harder to learn. Thank you for the guidance.


----------



## Windjammer

Then there are those who literally translate it word for word....."Golia'n chal rahi hai'n", as.... Tablets are walking. !!

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## S.U.R.B.

"Our" Aesthetic sense and the sense of making any sense has undergone mutation successfully. 
"We" believe that we have just one finger on our hand that is pointed towards our opponent and our adversary is congenitally blind in one eye.

I believe that P.A.F. stands for Pakistan air force.
That's my question, in fact.?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

Argus Panoptes said:


> Who thinks up these slogans?
> 
> What does "Black Spiders: venomous than ever" mean? Perhaps the slogan-writer wanted to say "MORE venomous than ever"?



its militarize...!

nice pic though

16 helmets so 16 a/c in sqn

so based on that 16+16+16 = 48 a/c. so a/c for 3rd sqn are already available. maybe it stands up on 23rd March - just thinking!


----------



## Nishan_101

Does PAF placed any order for Sensor Fused Weapons from USA. I think it was neccessary for PAF to have about 1100 of them at least as these are quite useful in wars and I am sure PAC Avionics division along with KRL and NESCOM can be able to produce Laser and GPS/Satellite guided bombs on their own.... Like Kits of them at home.

But Currently I think PAC Avionics division along with KRL and NESCOM should look in to doing JV with EU in development of Sensors like Radar, IR and Sonar... for many purposes...


----------



## Liquidmetal

Argus Panoptes said:


> Who thinks up these slogans?
> 
> What does "Black Spiders: venomous than ever" mean? Perhaps the slogan-writer wanted to say "MORE venomous than ever"?



That quote is terrible without the 'More' - leaves u hanging with venomous than ever, this is another example where I worry that standards are slipping. If you get the small things wrong then God help us regarding the big issues. These people need to read the book: Eats, shoots and leaves.

In fact we need to do what Germany did and institute a nation wide regime of excellence and minimum level of quality for everything, from growing crops to making our nuclear submarines, and look where Germany is. Quality is quality and will always win.


----------



## fatman17

Liquidmetal said:


> That quote is terrible without the 'More' - leaves u hanging with venomous than ever, this is another example where I worry that standards are slipping. If you get the small things wrong then God help us regarding the big issues. These people need to read the book: Eats, shoots and leaves.
> 
> In fact we need to do what Germany did and institute a nation wide regime of excellence and minimum level of quality for everything, from growing crops to making our nuclear submarines, and look where Germany is. Quality is quality and will always win.



its military english - as long as they are effective....dont worry about such details...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bratva

@Oscar, pic is of F-7 PG, question is, is this simple helmet or HMD/S ?


----------



## SQ8

mafiya said:


> @Oscar, pic is of F-7 PG, question is, is this simple helmet or HMD/S ?


Simple, good "old" helmet. However, worth mentioning is that the PAF has all but switched to a lightweight helmet that is a lot less of the headache they had with the old bone domes.



fatman17 said:


> its military english - as long as they are effective....dont worry about such details...



Exactly.. as long as they can slect currect chanels on telewion.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Neptune

@mafiya maybe yes. But I don't think that PAF will waste it's HMD's to the planes such as F-7.

Anyways folks, I have a Q:

Exercise Anatolian Eagle is just about to start. Do you have any infos on wheather will PAF join or not?


----------



## Jango

mafiya said:


> @Oscar, pic is of F-7 PG, question is, is this simple helmet or HMD/S ?



Is Fahrenheit a callsign or something?


----------



## Inception-06

nuclearpak said:


> Is Fahrenheit a callsign or something?



It is a german word, and its a famous Anti-US-capitalism Film, she dont like the Amerikis !


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Nishan_101 said:


> Does PAF placed any order for Sensor Fused Weapons from USA. I think it was neccessary for PAF to have about 1100 of them at least as these are quite useful in wars and I am sure PAC Avionics division along with KRL and NESCOM can be able to produce Laser and GPS/Satellite guided bombs on their own.... Like Kits of them at home.
> 
> But Currently I think PAC Avionics division along with KRL and NESCOM should look in to doing JV with EU in development of Sensors like Radar, IR and Sonar... for many purposes...


----------



## Sulieman

Just a question , does Pakistan Got ''intercept'' tech like iron dome .... and what is the name?


----------



## A.Rafay

Welcome to the forum!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Side-Winder

Sulieman said:


> Just a question , does Pakistan Got ''intercept'' tech like iron dome .... and what is the name?



Nope,we haven't


----------



## Sulieman

Side-Winder said:


> Nope,we haven't



ok heard that spada 2000 is for that purpose



A.Rafay said:


> Welcome to the forum!



thanks


----------



## Side-Winder

Sulieman said:


> ok heard that spada 2000 is for that purpose
> 
> 
> 
> SPADA is an Air defence system..operates only where there is a serious threat from enemy airrcrafts


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Side-Winder said:


> Nope,we haven't



Iron dome is useless in indo-Pak war scenerio... as for SAMs we do have SPADA-2000 n HQ series from China..


----------



## Side-Winder

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Iron dome is useless in indo-Pak war scenerio... as for SAMs we do have SPADA-2000 n HQ series from China..



ofcourse it's useless....
HQ series? which one? 9? or 18?
you sure???


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Side-Winder said:


> ofcourse it's useless....
> HQ series? which one? 9? or 18?
> you sure???



if i tell u il have to kill u..


----------



## Side-Winder

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> if i tell u il have to kill u..



 keep that with you 

coz as far as i know this matter about possesing HQ series SAMs is highly classified and can't easily be leaked on a public forum...


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Side-Winder said:


> keep that with you
> 
> coz as far as i know this matter about possesing HQ series SAMs is highly classified and can't easily be leaked on a public forum...



Some idiot did tht actually... on this very forum..


----------



## Side-Winder

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Some idiot did tht actually... on this very forum..



well,afterall he was an idiot

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## razgriz19

Side-Winder said:


> ofcourse it's useless....
> HQ series? which one? 9? or 18?
> you sure???



I hate to break it to you but the only long range SAM we ever acquired was HQ-2, which is very outdated now.
A lot of them have been retired as well. If you ever get a chance to go to PAF museum, you will see a few of them sitting on their final resting grounds.


----------



## Bamboo Castle

Can anybody tell me why Pakistan Air Force is maintaining a mega fleet of 500 Junkyard fighters like F-7, Mirage-3, Mirage-5 etc instead of buying 64 new F-16 or J-10 and protect the Pakistani skies.


----------



## Side-Winder

razgriz19 said:


> I hate to break it to you but the only long range SAM we ever acquired was HQ-2, which is very outdated now.
> A lot of them have been retired as well. If you ever get a chance to go to PAF museum, you will see a few of them sitting on their final resting grounds.



but i have heard that PAF may be looking for HQ-9 or HQ-18 series SAMs?


----------



## ejaz007

Bamboo Castle said:


> Can anybody tell me why Pakistan Air Force is maintaining a mega fleet of 500 Junkyard fighters like F-7, Mirage-3, Mirage-5 etc instead of buying 64 new F-16 or J-10 and protect the Pakistani skies.



PAF is in the process of replacing F-7 and Mirage fighters with JF-17. The process is ongoing and we have already replaced A-5 with JF-17.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jamesseo89

Does PAC produce 50 Jf-17 Block-Is till 2012, which many of the people claims.? Other than 8-10 receive from China that are used by Kamra for test and evaluation.


----------



## razgriz19

Side-Winder said:


> but i have heard that PAF may be looking for HQ-9 or HQ-18 series SAMs?



Yes, the key word here is "interested"
We don't have funds. That's the reason why every program has stalled.


----------



## Side-Winder

jamesseo89 said:


> Does PAC produce 50 Jf-17 Block-Is till 2012, which many of the people claims.? Other than 8-10 receive from China that are used by Kamra for test and evaluation.



All the aircrafts of Batch I were not built at PAC kamra -- yes initial 8 came from China


----------



## jamesseo89

Side-Winder said:


> All the aircrafts of Batch I were not built at PAC kamra -- yes initial 8 came from China



I think that all of these aircraft were produce by PAC and about 50 of them. Now some rumours on forum was that PAC had started making Block-IIs from late 2012 or from 2013.


----------



## Side-Winder

jamesseo89 said:


> I think that all of these aircraft were produce by PAC and about 50 of them. Now some rumours on forum was that PAC had started making Block-IIIs from late 2012 or from 2013.



LOL! NO not at all -- Block III from 2012? you nuts??? 
we are waiting here for Block II yet -- Block III production is supposed to be started by late 2015


----------



## SQ8

Why does deagel have the AGM-154 JSOW listed as transferred to Pakistan in 2008?
specifically 47 items?


----------



## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Why does deagel have the AGM-154 JSOW listed as transferred to Pakistan in 2008?
> specifically 47 items?



One time america provided us JDAMS and local channel reported it as ALCM name JSOW in 08/09. Perhaps local media screw up was believed by some arms recording database


----------



## SQ8

mafiya said:


> One time america provided us JDAMS and local channel reported it as ALCM name JSOW in 08/09. Perhaps local media screw up was believed by some arms recording database



That would still make sense. Since SIPRI has no JSOWs and it would probably create a sensation in India. But the numbers might still be accurate about 47 JDAMs being delivered.


----------



## zilahumafazal

*Air Force position of flight engineer and how to become one.??????????????????*


----------



## agent_ali

zilahumafazal said:


> *Air Force position of flight engineer and how to become one.??????????????????*



a tricky and long answer.... well, i advice you to go through preliminary selection procedure of PAF for GD Pilot or google the forum


----------



## Mugwop

@Aeronaut 
Why didn't PAF take interest in F-15S eagles?


----------



## Kompromat

@Jessica_L

Too expensive to buy, too expensive to operate for a country with 20mil kids out of schools.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Shinade

Why does JF-17 not use JDAM?


----------



## That Guy

Jessica_L said:


> @Aeronaut
> Why didn't PAF take interest in F-15S eagles?



What @Aeronaut said, also want to mention that the US has never offered Pakistan the F-15, and probably never will. Even if it does, it PAF will stay away because US aircrafts tend to have a big weakness in the PAF, and that weakness is military sanctions.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

That Guy said:


> What @Aeronaut said, also want to mention that the US has never offered Pakistan the F-15, and probably never will. Even if it does, it PAF will stay away because US aircrafts tend to have a big weakness in the PAF, and that weakness is military sanctions.



They would have sold the F-15s to Pakistan, had we been able to muster up the money to buy and operate them, they offered the F/A-18 Hornets to Pakistan too. An F-15 costs almost twice as much as operating an F-16.

If we had a robust economy, i would have Typhoons in PAF rather than F-15s.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mugwop

> If we had a robust economy, i would have Typhoons in PAF rather than F-15s.


 How come? Is it because a Typhoon trainer Shot Down 2 F15's during a flight over the Lake District? Typhoons have supercruise capabilities but can it shoot down a F22 Raptor?


----------



## Safriz

Jessica_L said:


> How come? Is it because a Typhoon trainer Shot Down 2 F15's during a flight over the Lake District? Typhoons have supercruise capabilities but can it shoot down a F22 Raptor?


Hello,
Why do you want PAF to go Bankrupt? (that is if they already aren't)
These were 2009 approximate costs of operating these aircrafts Per flying Hour..

Gripen $3,000 - $4,500 USD
F-16 approximately $5,000 USD
Rafale $16,000 USD 
F-22 $19,000-$40,000 USD
F-15C $17,000-$30,000 USD
Eurofighter Typhoon - $14,000 USD

Today the costs will be much higher,

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mugwop

> Hello,
> Why do you want PAF to go Bankrupt? (that is if they already aren't)


I don't want them to go bankrupt I am not from PPP! I was just asking a question.
BTW I would like to thank you for the information you provided me.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Luftwaffe

If you've got the money like saudis and arabs Nations generally you could buy anything and everything like fruits a little this and little that. 

For wish list contact nishan_101, azadpakistan and a latest entry i don't remember his ID.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kompromat

Jessica_L said:


> How come? Is it because a Typhoon trainer Shot Down 2 F15's during a flight over the Lake District? Typhoons have supercruise capabilities but can it shoot down a F22 Raptor?



Because i will buy the Typhoons on maximum industrial technology seeding contracts, with full avionics, AESA radar, composite materials and EJ-200 technology transfer. Then i will use the EJ-200s produced in Pakistan to power the JF-17s new blocks, then i will upgrade the EJ-200 to a 100 Kn output configuration and join SAC J-31 Research,development and production as a full partner. 

Then i'll utilise the upgraded EJ-200 to power the J-31. So i'd have 3 jets 1 engine = low operating and maintenance/spare parts costs = more jets we could buy = an air force lethal enough to match the capabilities of our highly trained and deadly pilots. Lastly, i would use the same EJ-200 technology to develop smaller turbofans to extend Babur cruise missile's range up to 2500-kms which means i would have the ability to launch a stealthy conventional attack on 100% Indian territory, day or night at moment's notice.

Now you know why i'd buy Typhoons instead of F-15s, and yes you, are free to call that my wishful thinking.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## humayounkhatri

i don't no but why u asking ervery one , who give pakistan F 5 jets tempary in 1971 war, msamjha nai ap Q pouch rahy ho is m kia koi khass bt ahi


----------



## he-man

Ok ppl can anyone tell me the best radar in pakistani f-16's??apg-66 or 68?

If apg-68 then which version and the specifications of that radar like range etc

Does f-16 have a dedicated irst??If yes then range will be appreciated


----------



## araz

Aeronaut said:


> Because i will buy the Typhoons on maximum industrial technology seeding contracts, with full avionics, AESA radar, composite materials and EJ-200 technology transfer. Then i will use the EJ-200s produced in Pakistan to power the JF-17s new blocks, then i will upgrade the EJ-200 to a 100 Kn output configuration and join SAC J-31 Research,development and production as a full partner.
> 
> Then i'll utilise the upgraded EJ-200 to power the J-31. So i'd have 3 jets 1 engine = low operating and maintenance/spare parts costs = more jets we could buy = an air force lethal enough to match the capabilities of our highly trained and deadly pilots. Lastly, i would use the same EJ-200 technology to develop smaller turbofans to extend Babur cruise missile's range up to 2500-kms which means i would have the ability to launch a stealthy conventional attack on 100% Indian territory, day or night at moment's notice.
> 
> Now you know why i'd buy Typhoons instead of F-15s, and yes you, are free to call that my wishful thinking.



Now I would call it something else!!!! But out of sheer civility stay out>
Regards
Araz



Aeronaut said:


> Because i will buy the Typhoons on maximum industrial technology seeding contracts, with full avionics, AESA radar, composite materials and EJ-200 technology transfer. Then i will use the EJ-200s produced in Pakistan to power the JF-17s new blocks, then i will upgrade the EJ-200 to a 100 Kn output configuration and join SAC J-31 Research,development and production as a full partner.
> 
> Then i'll utilise the upgraded EJ-200 to power the J-31. So i'd have 3 jets 1 engine = low operating and maintenance/spare parts costs = more jets we could buy = an air force lethal enough to match the capabilities of our highly trained and deadly pilots. Lastly, i would use the same EJ-200 technology to develop smaller turbofans to extend Babur cruise missile's range up to 2500-kms which means i would have the ability to launch a stealthy conventional attack on 100% Indian territory, day or night at moment's notice.
> 
> Now you know why i'd buy Typhoons instead of F-15s, and yes you, are free to call that my wishful thinking.



Now I would call it something else!!!! But out of sheer civility I will stay out.
Regards
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ExplodingSnow

Does PAF speak with each other in English or in Urdu?

In dogfights to other pilots?
On Ground?
Air to ground control?


----------



## RAMPAGE

@Aeronaut @Oscar 

yara are all the PAF's F-16A/B Block 15 and F-16A/B Block 15 OCU going through MLU ?

also , how much service life is left !!!

@That Guy any idea mate ?


----------



## Inception-06

ExplodingSnow said:


> Does PAF speak with each other in English or in Urdu?
> 
> In dogfights to other pilots?
> On Ground?
> Air to ground control?



I think only in English, You can finde it out, when you will see this Video.


It starts at 04:17 a very interesting and nice Video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojpcrdIHR6U

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ExplodingSnow

Ulla said:


> I think only in English, You can finde it out, when you will see this Video.
> 
> 
> It starts at 04:17 a very interesting and nice Video.



The video is interesting, but also kind of disappointing. 
Assuming it doesn't really matter which language is spoken as long as the job's done. 
I would also like to point out air defense radar say's scramble 2 F-16's, but 1 F-16 and 1 F-7 is deployed. Why?
Also i had no idea how much of a huge rule ground support play's while pursuing the target. 

This is all of course assuming this video is 100% exactly how PAF would act in such an incident. Which i doubt they would release to the public.


----------



## That Guy

RAMPAGE said:


> @Aeronaut @Oscar
> 
> yara are all the PAF's F-16A/B Block 15 and F-16A/B Block 15 OCU going through MLU ?
> 
> also , how much service life is left !!!
> 
> @That Guy any idea mate ?



I'm pretty sure they're all going through it, it would only make sense, having said that, I don't know for sure.

The F-16s, even the early models, were made to last well within the 21st century. Now, taking into account that Pakistan got it's fighters in the mid 80s, and if they were sent straight from the factory floor to Pakistan, they're pretty much finished around half their expected life cycle, maybe a bit more.

Other than this, I can't say much. I don't know enough about aircrafts, especially the F-16, to make a better guess than this, I'm more of a drone guy. Try asking gambit, he and I may disagree on political issues, but when it comes to aircrafts, he's pretty knowledgable.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## airomerix

Dreamreaper said:


> Hello,
> Why do you want PAF to go Bankrupt? (that is if they already aren't)
> These were 2009 approximate costs of operating these aircrafts Per flying Hour..
> 
> Gripen $3,000 - $4,500 USD
> F-16 approximately $5,000 USD
> Rafale $16,000 USD
> F-22 $19,000-$40,000 USD
> F-15C $17,000-$30,000 USD
> Eurofighter Typhoon - $14,000 USD
> 
> Today the costs will be much higher,



The current operating costs of F-35A vary between $40,000 to $45,000 per hour. The reason why most of the states are turning towards Eurofighters.


----------



## TaimoorMalik

*Can anyone tell whats the upcoming registration date for applying PAF as commissioned officer? I know 25 Aug was the last date but im late... Whats the next ? Any idea *


----------



## Kompromat

TaimoorMalik said:


> *Can anyone tell whats the upcoming registration date for applying PAF as commissioned officer? I know 25 Aug was the last date but im late... Whats the next ? Any idea *


 @F.O.X Pls do the needed.


----------



## jaibi

ExplodingSnow said:


> Does PAF speak with each other in English or in Urdu?
> 
> In dogfights to other pilots?
> On Ground?
> Air to ground control?



The PAF has a rich tradition of bilingualism.


----------



## F.O.X

TaimoorMalik said:


> *Can anyone tell whats the upcoming registration date for applying PAF as commissioned officer? I know 25 Aug was the last date but im late... Whats the next ? Any idea *



After 6 months of Aug


----------



## TaimoorMalik

F.O.X said:


> After 6 months of Aug



Thanks For the infor


----------



## jaibi

F.O.X said:


> After 6 months of Aug



FOX, sir, I would be grateful if you could tell me about the induction dates of Psychologists in the PAF (education branch) as well.


----------



## Panther 57

jaibi said:


> FOX, sir, I would be grateful if you could tell me about the induction dates of Psychologists in the PAF (education branch) as well.


You will have to wait for the ad, which is dependent upon vacancies and requirements.


----------



## jaibi

Panther 57 said:


> You will have to wait for the ad, which is dependent upon vacancies and requirements.



Yes, and there has been no ad this entire year. I just completed my degree and can apply now


----------



## Panther 57

jaibi said:


> Yes, and there has been no ad this entire year. I just completed my degree and can apply now



Your application will not be actioned. Best way is to visit PAF selection center and talk to the people there. They should be able to guide you best.


----------



## jaibi

Panther 57 said:


> Your application will not be actioned. Best way is to visit PAF selection center and talk to the people there. They should be able to guide you best.



I did they say it's 'probable' that it'd come next year. Plus I know that the Navy Psych seats are coming this Dec/Jan but I want to go for PAF


----------



## Tacticool

Hur abbas said:


> Can someone tell me how to join Paf after matric??



Do fsc then wait for gdp induction date. then go to selection center. endure their misbehavior. remove your pant in front of them (i removed it twice). then get the issb form

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ZohaibMumtaz

guyz i want to know JF-17 thunder is better then LCA Tejas and i have read that idians saying that JF-17 thunder can`t fire a missile


----------



## Drebin

Hello guys,

I want to humbly inquire as to the meaning of "retiring" an aircraft? I mean is it decommissioned or scrapped, or sent to junkyard, museums. Or it is SOLD? Additionally, is there a certain pletue that we want to achieve with JF-17 in short, medium or long term? As like make it technologically comparable or, dare I say better then F-16 (whichever the block)?


----------



## Taygibay

Of course the Thunder can fire missiles! Don't trust any poster on the Internet, Zohaib!
Even Wikipedia could have told you that. The question of being better than another Aircraft is more complex though. Until they either face each other or face the same type in exercises, it can't be known apart from their specifications : speed, engines, radar type, armament, etc and even exercises are never totally reliable since they include rules that may skew the results.
Until a more knowledgeable poster from Pk.def comes by I'd say that the Thunder is about the same as Tejas ( and may mature faster ) and a light version of the F-16 to answer Drebin. But the new avionics as it goes along in the future may change that upward.

As for Drebin's other question, all of your answers are good plus being stocked for use of its parts as replacements for active jets. If you use retiring for a TYPE of fighter however, it only means that its use will cease for the concerned air force, whatever happens to the planes themselves.

Good day both, Tay.


----------



## Drebin

@Taygibay,

Thanks for the answers but, can you be more specific or elaborate in a bit mord detail rather then say, lighter version of F -16. It unfortunately doesn't explains much .

Actually, both my questions are based on the logic of technology and capital. You see F-16s had always given us an edge over India. Thus, making the highs of our Airforce. But in today's theatre of war, its not true anymore as our neighbour now sports the likes of Su-30 and soon PAK-FA and may be Rafales. Therefore, relying on 'em like in the past, in my humble opinion has become more of an expansive liability for us. We need to move on to attain the same edge as we once had to balance out the power disparity in the region/Sub - continent. But again, it all boils down to availability of funds.

While on the other hand, we aim to build and induct induct some 250 of JF -17 Thunder platforms, constantly upgrading it via block wise approach (clever & cost effective). Thus, effectively making it our mainstay aircraft, making high lows of our Airforce and, retiring the entire fleets of all other TYPES of A/C.

So even with that configuration, quality (apart from human element) & quantity wise, we stand no chance compared to our old adversary.

So what probably I am trying to deduce is whether Airforce aims to sell out all other platforms as they gradually induct more JF-17s while retiring the others? As that seems a very lucrative way of arranging the necessary funds to fast tracking the Thunder programme. It'll not only enhance the capability of the platform but, also tremendously boost its appeal in international markets. Through that, bringing in more revenue for the Airforce.

If that's the strategy of Pakistan Airforce then, what cost does individual outgoing A/C expected to fetch? And what will be that comparable performance/weapons/avionics etc sweetspot that Airforce will aim for with JF-17 vs F -16s and A/Cs in Indian inventory.

Lastly and most importantly, can same be strategised for F-16s? As funds generated via their sell can be utilised for procurement of modern and far effective platforms like 4th or 4+ Gen: A/Cs like Typhoon. Or even be used to fund / invest in JV for 5th Gen: platform with China like J31 as India is doing with Russia for PAK FA.

I'm not dreaming as fanboy, rather I want to discuss if such strategy is possible as Pakistan Airforce needs to modernise at some point. So if able, knowledgeable and senior members could clarify a few quarries in regards to this post and, outline positives and negatives of such a approach, I'd be really thankful. It'd far more enlightening to us all if wise members could outline the actual approach Airforce plans to take or their own opinion in this regard would be of immense value.

Thank you and sorry for such a long post.


----------



## Taygibay

No problem with the long post Drebin my friend, better long &clear than short and imprecise.

First on the "light" thing. Most numbers for the Thunder are around 80% of the equivalent ones for the Falcon of the blocks owned by Pakistan! The avionics are not superior either? Its only valid superiority is that it allows the PAF to use BVR missiles which is awesome on a national level. You should really keep in mind that the JF_17 will likely face TEJAS, MiG-29 or 27 in a war with India, Mirage 2000 at best! The Su-30 and Rafale if/when MMRCA comes thru will be for China? Which then explains why numbers are just about meaningless outside of scenarii and strategic tactical considerations. Let's be honest that if a new war had India and Pakistan facing each other and no one else involved or intervening so that both used all their might, in the air, India would win if only by attrition of numbers of the PAF fighters?

Moving on to your plan for it.
There are two problems with your idea, IMHoO. First, selling relatively recent US planes is harder than it seems. You'd have to sell these to a nation that the USA fully supports otherwise they'd quickly become useless for lack of support, bombs, parts, etc? Those are rare as if they have the money for it, the US will prefer to sell them new planes or barring that sell them used ones from the USAF?
The second bug is that as long as the USA meaningfully services the F-16s sold to the PAF, they should be kept in function to fight in the scenario outlined above of facing India.

The alternative that I would favor goes towards sales of the JF-17 itself? I did write in the export thread that too much should not be expected but there is a market, you know? Any Nation not wanting to align to RU-China and too poor to get the expensive Western toys ( Raffy-Typhie or even Gripen ) should consider the Thunder. Just think that even the South Africans are finding their Gripens expensive to run? And let's keep in mind that most rich Muslim nations buy Western uber-jets and that selling to Iran would break the bond with America?

From this, we can draw a plan :
1- state a neutral selling strategy : not to rogue states nor religiously driven;
2- plan to use the proceeds to fuel development of the JF-17's blocks thus insuring new (re-)orders;
3- put the rest of the money in the future aircraft of the PAF whether that be a buy or ideally a co-development again but this time on equal footing or with Pakistan as main designer?

That would already be a big and quick step-up! Most countries that tried either failed or took much longer? As for the market itself, Argentina or heck, even Afghanistan could be prospects. Granted that the tensions with your neighbor contradict that last idea but that is in fact one way to subdue them? IE. They'd be relying on **** help and you'd have little to fear from their AF?
Still, elsewhere as in Africa there could be markets opening. As a matter of fact, unless an agreement with China was signed, places on the continent that can't afford J-10s or align to the Chinese would likely be fine with the Thunder for a reasonable self-defence force. In addition to which, if the PAF uses its image of having professional quality pilots, some could be sent along to fly the things as many African nations do not have those? 

I know all this seems to run far into the future and that your proposal carries more weight at the moment ( except for selling the F-16s really ) but it is with vision that one builds tomorrow. Anything else is merely growing old?

Talk to you soon, have a great day, Tay.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Drebin

@Taygibay,

Hello dear sir, how are you doing? I'm sorry for leaving the discussion incomplete as I had Diploma exams. Anyway, you made some very interesting and knowledgeable points which not only ans the quarries but, also serve as the eye opener and, increases the thirst for attaining more knowledge. I really thank you for that .

And so continuing on with our discussion, I'd like to make a few points by quoting text from your post and one other member for reference. And, please bear with me as its going to be a very long reply.



> First on the "light" thing. Most numbers for the Thunder are around 80% of the equivalent ones for the Falcon of the blocks owned by Pakistan! The avionics are not superior either? Its only valid superiority is that it allows the PAF to use BVR missiles which is awesome on a national level.



WOW! Reading the comparative numbers for JF-17 Block-I being equivalent to 80% to F-16C/D Block 50/52+ at such a low cost is indeed an achievement of Titanic proportions. And not only that, rather development and integration of the future blocks as per PAF's needs means the A/C could end up becoming one extremely lethal, mean machine attuned for deadly pilots of PAF and technologically being right up there with elites of the aviation Industry. This in itself becomes a massive selling point and, things start to make sense in regards to potential global market as well as in pakistan's immediate neighbourhood. This project has indeed been a boon and blessing for pakistan, helping its infant Aerospace Industry usher in new era and writing a new chapter in its history. I assume the Pakistani input in Chengdu J-10 project which later evolved it into J-10B is the direct result of experience gained by PAC, during 15 years -and counting- of work on JF-17 project?



> You should really keep in mind that the JF_17 will likely face TEJAS, MiG-29 or 27 in a war with India, Mirage 2000 at best! The Su-30 and Rafale if/when MMRCA comes thru will be for China? Which then explains why numbers are just about meaningless outside of scenarii and strategic tactical considerations. Let's be honest that if a new war had India and Pakistan facing each other and no one else involved or intervening so that both used all their might, in the air, India would win if only by attrition of numbers of the PAF fighters?



I agree with the outlined engagement scenerio of Thunder facing the said A/Cs in Indian inventory and, India winning in an isolated air conflict purely on the attrition of numbers. But what I do not agree with is India stocking and reserving the 4++ and 5th Gen: A/C ONLY for China. Although this arguement seems quite valid in reference to Indian ICBMs but, not for jets as old air conflict strategies have been completely discarded in light of new technologies, weapon systems etc available. And if not that then, IAF knows for the fact that PAF is capable of inflicting some serious damage even in conventional warfare as it is now, which could have detrimental effects on its economy in the long term leaving her incapable of waging war vs China. Then why would India risk absorbing such devastation, instead of using its shiny new jets which could drastically reduce the casualties as well as cost of war? That in my humble opinion, doesn't make any sense at all.

And speaking of China, why on earth would it ever want to go to war with India anyway? Doesn't it got enough hostile neighbours of her own ? Its in China's best interests to keep India firmly focused on us! And its actually India which is becoming overly ambitious too quickly, too soon. Of course, there's a huge part of WEST in it too but, let's leave it for another discussion .



> Moving on to your plan for it.
> There are two problems with your idea, IMHoO. First, selling relatively recent US planes is harder than it seems. You'd have to sell these to a nation that the USA fully supports otherwise they'd quickly become useless for lack of support, bombs, parts, etc? Those are rare as if they have the money for it, the US will prefer to sell them new planes or barring that sell them used ones from the USAF?
> The second bug is that as long as the USA meaningfully services the F-16s sold to the PAF, they should be kept in function to fight in the scenario outlined above of facing India.



We can't sell them, we can't live without them. LOL! Goes to tell you the kind of relations we enjoy with one of our oldest ally, USA. Thus, I'm inclined to share the sentiments of my fellow Pakistanis regarding sanctions prone American equipment and, need for indigenisation and diversification.



> The alternative that I would favor goes towards sales of the JF-17 itself? I did write in the export thread that too much should not be expected but there is a market, you know? Any Nation not wanting to align to RU-China and too poor to get the expensive Western toys ( Raffy-Typhie or even Gripen ) should consider the Thunder. Just think that even the South Africans are finding their Gripens expensive to run? And let's keep in mind that most rich Muslim nations buy Western uber-jets and that selling to Iran would break the bond with America?
> 
> From this, we can draw a plan :
> 1- state a neutral selling strategy : not to rogue states nor religiously driven;
> 2- plan to use the proceeds to fuel development of the JF-17's blocks thus insuring new (re-)orders;
> 3- put the rest of the money in the future aircraft of the PAF whether that be a buy or ideally a co-development again but this time on equal footing or with Pakistan as main designer?
> 
> That would already be a big and quick step-up! Most countries that tried either failed or took much longer? As for the market itself, Argentina or heck, even Afghanistan could be prospects. Granted that the tensions with your neighbor contradict that last idea but that is in fact one way to subdue them? IE. They'd be relying on **** help and you'd have little to fear from their AF?
> Still, elsewhere as in Africa there could be markets opening. As a matter of fact, unless an agreement with China was signed, places on the continent that can't afford J-10s or align to the Chinese would likely be fine with the Thunder for a reasonable self-defence force. In addition to which, if the PAF uses its image of having professional quality pilots, some could be sent along to fly the things as many African nations do not have those?
> 
> I know all this seems to run far into the future and that your proposal carries more weight at the moment ( except for selling the F-16s really ) but it is with vision that one builds tomorrow. Anything else is merely growing old?
> 
> Talk to you soon, have a great day, Tay.



I'm in total agreement with you sir but, a few recent diplomatic breakthroughs do create openings and opportunities that should be cashed in aggressively. Like the recent Iran Nuclear Deal, which America went ahead with in face of severe opposition from Israel and Saudi Arabia. It resulted in loosening of sanctions and resumptions of dialogue decades after the Iranian revolution. It is indicative of US's will to pursue better relationships with the oil rich country to better support and sustain its own dwindling economy which recently went into "shut down." Furthermore, the fact that USA has showed its interest to divert its NATO supplies via Iran instead of Pakistan is another indication of an effort to improve diplomatic ties. Therefore, I think its paramount for Pakistan to take full advantage of the space created to exercise some backdoor diplomatic maneuvering for strong lobbying of Iran-Pakistan Gas Pipeline Project, which we need not just to overcome our crippling energy crisis. But, also as a foundation for building new, sustainable, long term relationship with Iran encompassing cooperation at strategic level.

So far stars seems to be aligning well for Pakistan as at recent ECO summit, Islamabad successfully engaged Tehran which agreed for renegotiation of terms and tariff of IP Gas Pipeline. Additionally, there has been news(rumors?) flying around of an anonymous state which isn't a traditional friend of Pakistan, providing 1 $Billion for construction of the pipeline inside our borders. If I was to assume anything then, I'd say that this is all happening with the blessings of United States.

Thus, contradicting your point, Iran may very well become one of the biggest future potential market for JF-17. Of course, this is all theory and too many uncertainties but, like you said yourself,"It is with vision that one builds tomorrow. Anything else is merely growing old."

Furthermore, peace is in our best interest as striving for it today is the only guaranteed way of reaping its dividends tomorrow in form of prosperity. And its equally true for our another neighbour, Afghanistan. Speaking of whom, you made some very excellent and compelling points as having strong trade and defence ties is the only way of attaining mutual understanding and lasting peace. And last week's visit of Premier Nawaz to kabul where he offered greater and active Pakistani cooperation (access to Mulla Brother/peace talks with talibaan etc) as well as support for nation building ($20 Million) is an effort directed towards just that.

Besides, there's no other nation that can play as vital a role in building peaceful and stable Afghanistan as Pakistan, because of our cultural similarities, geology, history and religion. And warranting the stability, pakistan can pledge an utmost support in defence which comprise not just military training but, also military hardware at very cost effective budget that include rifles and bullets to tanks and jets.

So ya, Afghanistan could become another very, very lucrative market not just for JF-17s but an array of military hardware.

Apart from that, I am in complete agreement with your three point sell, development and market strategy .

On the side note, I'd like to take this opportunity to ask you two more questions;


What is your opinion of J10-B/FC20 as a combat aircraft overall and vs Pakistani F-16? I'm asking this because there is lots of debate here in this forum for its induction in PAF. And also, I recently read a Chinese member @jack_zx who said, "Chinese want to see J-10B in considerable number before even offering J-20. The money + interest of Chinese companies is in NOT offering Pakistan J-20 unless J-10B is flying with PAF in number." Because,"Any plane operating with PAF is a free marketing for Chinese companies (I was so proud of it when an AVIC personal said it to me in the presence of PAF personal that the world trusts PAFs standards)." For better read/understanding, please visit here. Your comments?
Its about Chengdu J20 and Shenyang J31 actually, i.e., Which one is better for Pakistan? The reason why I ask this is because, many a member vote for J31 which is a multirole stealth 5th Gen: A/C designed as an alternate for F-35. Whereas, I differ on the basis that EVERYTHING in our inventory so far is bought, designed on this very philosophy and, it'll continue to get even better with future blocks of JF-17 and induction -if ever- of FC20. J20 on the other hand is being designed as *5th Gen: Air Superiority Fighter.* Don't you think we've enough of multirole A/C and, its J20 we need particularly to thwart off the threat of HAL FGFA in future or any such aggression via Indian MMRCA?
Thanks a million for going through my lengthy post. Would you believe that I've REALLY tried to make it as short and sweet and concise as possible ? LOL!

Thanks for your time and your and comments of senior members and participators are a source of infinite wisdom. Thanks all.

Peace.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Taygibay

Hello back Drebin! I fully understand about any delays as I have an "analog" life too ( and sort of pity the poor devils that don't )! In fact, I was feeling sorry myself for not having answered you quicker and even mentioned you on my blog in yesterday's Post, LOL shaming myself for my laziness.

Your first reply is fine. There is very little to add. Indeed, the important thing in any project (civilian or military ) is to make progress over the previous attempt, something so many folks do not understand. In that regard, the collaboration with China was just what the doctor recommended. It allowed to get a decent bird with a decent lifetime ahead of it that could incrementally be brought to previous levels of the PAF at a decent price all the while developing the design skills of the **** aero engineers.
I understand why some Indians would boast of the LCA program as being so much more but that is an improper comparison. The question is how much ones progresses ( which in turn depends on where one was to begin with ) and at what cost. If one gets a tit for that in the replacement over the previous fighter and learns 50% of what it did not know for a given amount, the other getting an identical replacement and learning 75% of what it did not know only "won" if the amount invested is balanced out ( around 50% more $ )?
As you surmised, if the learning curve has carried on to a participation in the J-10B, then the payback is kept alive ( skills are preserved over time ). I sadly lack any worthy source to confirm that. Do you have a serious link to procure to me about such a participation. Mine, from China, only mention Chinese involvement. Recent infos even show some Sino reluctance on the J-10 sales to Pakistan.
完全原创--专访歼10总设计师宋文骢院士[图]--军事频道-中华网-中国最大职业人士门户
J-10 aircraft not exported to Pakistan over license issue, says China | Terminal X

On the F-16 issue, again, you understood me perfectly. Yup, the Yanks are often hiding the intent of not allowing not only use but even more so progression of their allies industrial base behind sales.
This is why France since De Gaulle spent so much on maintaining a fully independent Mili Arms sector. As a matter of fact, the F-16 in its earliest form was sold to many European nations that had aero makers and later closed them. The idea of shutting down the competition both for dominance & future profit purposes still exists in the F-35 BTW. It may maintain jobs and some capacities in Canada or Turkey to have joined it but it clearly hurts the British for instance. While they got a big share of the work, it almost makes BAe and others subsidiaries of American MIC firms? And if they do not go into a next gen. plan for ACs with the Germans/Italians/Spanish nor accept a less than 50% chance of the design in their new collaboration with the French, it will likely make them unable to build a warplane 100% by themselves ever again.
Learning from such mistakes in Pakistan's case might offer this prospective view : do not commit yourselves entirely to the Chinese channel of coop work. It may be as simple as finding a partner to build say a UAV/UCAV or trainer plane with to keep the design studios at work. But if independence is the ultimate goal, it has to be done! Brazil's Embraer, Turkey, KAI maybe? Or bringing together Muslim nations although that is a bit far fetched ( Gulf ones for funds and best Asian ones for work? ). Just diversify your alliances! It is the price of survival IMHoO!

On that last point, I'd skip directly to your analysis concerning Iran. All of it seems fine to me ( and I do see why a special relationship between you and them is a natural on many aspects ) except for one thing. Do not count on JF-17 sales soon! The adverb being the focal point here, you should be very wary of expecting too much in terms of openings between the West and Allies regarding Teheran. The sanctions for instance are still in place. At the last deal on their nuclear power which I treated on Definitive Lapse of Reason, they gained a modest softening of the worst ones only and only in a temporary manner ( 6 months )? The harsh stance of the Revolutionary Guards on Israel's right to existence will be a major blocking point for a long time to come as it periodically resurfaces. And the Muslim oil-rich Nations that opposes Iran for religious reasons also benefit from these sanctions on a commercial standpoint which makes 2 reasons to one ( Dislike of the Jewish state ) for them to keep running back to siding with the US / West at the first sign of problem?
From a geo-political PoV, I'd be very surprised if sales of fighters by Islamabad to Teheran were to happen in the next decade ( or if so, without severe cost in support from Western countries to Pakistan, USA most of all! ).

On the Indian part, there are many considerations left unanswered. As the Tejas nears its induction ( confirmed for December 20th ), the question of how much it can do is soon to be clarified. If it gets anywhere near the value of the pre-udpate of the M-2000H which lays a lot on its avionics and EW suite, I think that you can expect it to the spearhead of actions against Pakistan in a possible conflict. Of course, some Su-MKI and Rafales will be thrown in but not that many? If you look at it dispassionately which in your case might understandably be difficult, a small number of 30s up high and Rafales in penetration would do immense damage to the PAF simply on a platform vs platform standpoint and despite the recognized abilities of its pilots. And while you mention ICMBs in the Chinese scenario, these would also be available to reach your own land? ( About which I hope that we both mean conventional warheads ones as there is a reason why nukes have only been used once in history? )
If you admit this, you will then find out why the fear of a two-front war is so prevalent in Indian posts and on their own fora! First, China could base some of its fighters in Pakistan and second, the superiority in numbers the IAF retains over you guys and the relative balance it has with China alone would then fall to a minority rapport? Which also brings in your remark about China not really wanting a war with Bharat? I'd agree in general with that view save for one thing : the quality of the relations India entertains with other Asian nations. IF they'd join India then the Chinese would avoid the conflict and concentrate on Japan and the seas as it is doing now. Then again, it is simply impossible for now to imagine a war between the Celestial Empire & the 3 majors on the Pacific front ( Jp/Ko/Phil ) as the US will not stand by idly if it happens. ( Taïwan? Remote possibility there but very remote. ) Again, I made a 2 parts Post on that as it would be a WWIII type of thing.
What I am trying to convey here is this : the next war between China and a neighbour is entirely circumstantial until it happens? If a situation arises to allow it and China is ready, yes but it would be utter presumption to state where and when that will spring up at present. The China seas have the edge for now.

And so finally, about Avic's actual workhorse the J-10 and its successor the J-10. As you have seen from the above link, the J-10's appearance in the PAF is not confirmed and thus, the J-20 even less?
And yes, I'd believe what you heard, namely that the presence of the 10-B would have a good marketing value for the Chinese industry. But let me mitigate that though. It has such value UNTIL the Chinese find a buyer? Not to disparage the PAF as we agree that its professionalism IS recognized but simply to compound my previous take on alliances? There are 3 good reasons for the J-10 to be offered to Pakistan. One, the PAF's renown, visibility bonus! Two, it makes it an exported plane, commercial bonus! Three, sales to a country that already operates recent American planes would make it seen as broadly equivalent, marketing bonus?

Big IF however! How good is that aircraft? It flies, fine! It has a modern design if only by virtue of being a bastard copy ... child of the EF and/or Lavi, oki! But what else? I mean, I have seen the Chinese aerobatics team on it and it did not impress me as being anywhere near a top Sukhoi or Raffy? And what's more important, crucial even, how good if any are the electronics onboard? If I had to state an honest reservation about the present day Chinese productions, that would be it! Not to say that it is absolutely certain that is way backward but seriously, I'd have to find reports from even an exercise with modern fighters telling of its prowess in detection and counter-measures and EW and so on before trusting all the nice hype from Beijing and Chengdu/Harbin/etc. Copying russian jets and motors or French helos and motors is one thing but making state of the art equipment is another. As such, until I have proof to the contrary, the j-20-31 et al are but empty shells to boost propaganda! When they fire missiles or bombs in anger at long-distance hard to reach targets in a disputed environment, we'll see?
Which begs the question : why would Pakistan want a dummy?
Let us not loose ourselves in speculations, my poor Drebin. The PAF has a present to take care of. The Defence Minister should be keeping ahead of the future, true, but until even the PAK_fgFA gets anywhere near serial production, worries about India's stealth arsenal are premature? Heck, in all truth, even the F-35 still hasn't shown real worth except moneywise 

Or is that money UNwise LMAO ...

I gotta run but will come back to check on you soon, have a great day and all the best to you & yours, Tay.


----------



## MilSpec

How many of JF17/FC1 sub systems are being manufactured in/by PAC?


----------



## TaimiKhan

sandy_3126 said:


> How many of JF17/FC1 sub systems are being manufactured in/by PAC?



Search JF-17 information pool and other main JF-17 main thread. All the information given in it. Even some of the info provided on PAC official thread.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nomi007

TaimiKhan said:


> Search JF-17 information pool and other main JF-17 main thread. All the information given in it. Even some of the info provided on PAC official thread.


which sq is going to add new jf-17


----------



## TaimiKhan

nomi007 said:


> which sq is going to add new jf-17



Most probably someone which is nearly by to Kamra or already in Kamra. 

I have heard about the No.14 Sqd too, they are in Kamra, best that all 3 Sqds are very much nearby.


----------



## Abdul haq Bhanbhro

Any body tell me that when will be announced Pakistan Air force jobs to require Matric qualification ....


----------



## Introvert

Since now we have 50 JF17, how many old PAF fighter jets (Mirage III, F 7, A5 etc) will be decomissioned.


----------



## khanasifm

*Selex ES targets 'affordable' AESA market with Grifo-E*

Selex ES targets 'affordable' AESA market with Grifo-E - IHS Jane's 360

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ra'ad

Hi,
Regarding the designation of upgraded models of aircraft, what is the difference between blocks and ABCD model designations. Both represent upgraded models.

Like our upgraded thunder is called block 2, while the Chinese are naming their upgraded j10 as j10a, j10b, j10c.

And for that matter, the f16 we bought is block52 and C/D. Do these separate designations show separate upgrades?


----------



## Taygibay

Hello Ra'ad. I can partially answer you. Block 2 is an evolution which is somewhat different from an upgrade. An evolution is a new way of making the plane with new components or capabilities whereas an upgrade is done on existing planes. The same more or less goes for the J-10.
As far as the F-16 is concerned however you should decouple the block from the letters. A/B is a single seat to two-seats distinction between the original Fighting Falcons to the C/D one for the evolved or redesigned later version and stands again for the E/F case. 
Blocks instead concern the equipment onboard and is similar to block for the Thunder. Some blocks however are indicative of production variants.
For instance, A/B block 20 are old planes brought up to Block 50-52 level save the capacities that couldn't fit. But E/F block 60s for their part are a specific development on the C/D models with a different radar APG-80, engine dash 132 instead of 129, Falcon Edge EW suite, ASRAAM & SLAM missiles and a fiber-optics bus that was only delivered to the UAE.
In all, there are nearly 50 variants of the F-16, more if you count test and development ones!!!
Pakistani F-16 are the next to last new build models to the UAE ones so very top of the line except that other Falcons of the second series could be updated to that level through an MLU type procedure.

To compare with two present non-US birds, the EF-Typhoon comes in three Tranches or production/delivery variants that are not fully compatible whereas the Rafale comes in many more Standards that are all retrofitted, meaning that any made in the past only needs to go through a refurbish at worst or service overhaul within the AF to acquire the latest standard's evolutions.

It is thus a bit tough to follow because designations vary in meaning from one manufacturer or place to the other.

Good day to you and all, Tay.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## fatman17

Baazi said:


> Since now we have 50 JF17, how many old PAF fighter jets (Mirage III, F 7, A5 etc) will be decomissioned.


 
36-40 A-5's already replaced - 2 squadrons.
its most likely the 3rd JFT squadron will replace a Mirage III squadron.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khanasifm

PAK FA stealth features patent published - IHS Jane's 360
PAK FA stealth features patent published - IHS Jane's 360





This profile view of the PAK FA illustrates the extensive shaping that has been done in an effort to reduce the usual radar-returning traps around the air intakes. Source: Sukhoi
Details of the Sukhoi Design Bureau's work on the stealthy aspects of the T-50 PAK FA fighter aircraft emerged in late December 2013, when the company's patents were published.

According to the patent paperwork, taken together, all of the stealthy measures offer significant improvements over legacy fighter designs. *The papers claim that the radar cross-section (RCS) of an Su-27 was in the order of 10-15 m 2 , with the intention being to reduce the size of the RCS in the T-50 to an "average figure of 0.1-1 m 2 ".*

In common with other low observable aircraft designs, this reduction is achieved throught the use of radar-absorbing and radar-shielding materials and coatings, panel shaping (especially around the air intakes) and in the design of the junctions between moving elements, such as flaps and hatches.

In particular, the patent spells out the benefits of internal weapons carriage, s-shaped engine air ducts, (which were considered but are actually not implemented in the production PAK FA), and the use of radar blockers. It adds that the inlet guide vanes of the engines' compressors generate "a significant portion [up to 60%] of the radar cross-section of the airframe-powerplant system in the forward hemisphere" and that this is reduced by using radar-blocking devices and radar-absorbing coatings in the walls of the air ducts.

The shape of the airframe reduces the number of directions that radar signals are reflected in with the angles of sweep of the wings and the tail plane's leading and trailing edges, the edges of the air intakes and hatch covers being reduced and deflected from the aircraft's axis. Viewing the aircraft from the flank, the fuselage sides, lateral edges of the air intakes and vertical empennage are all deflected at the same angle.

Some openings and slots on the airframe's surface - such as the boundary-layer bleeds on the sides of the air intakes and the openings on the upper fuselage immediately aft of the cockpit - are covered with a thick grid, featuring a mesh of less than one quarter of the wavelength of a search radar, which reduces the reflections from these uneven surfaces. Gaps between the airframe elements are filled with conducting sealants, while the glazing of the cockpit canopy is metallised.

The surfaces of the PAK FA's own five radar arrays are also angled off from the vertical plane, helping to 'deflect' enemy radar signals. The covers of the radar arrays are selective, letting through their own signals, but blocking other frequencies. Additionally, the array compartments are edged with radar-absorbing 'curtains' to reduce possible leaks of these amplified signals.

Antennas are recessed from the surface of the skin to reduce protuberances (the vertical empennage serves as a communications antenna), while the turret of the aircraft's nose-mounted infrared search-and-track (IRST) sight is rotated backwards into a cruise position, exposing its rear hemisphere, which is covered with a radar-absorbing coating.

The release of this list of patents follows the July 2013 release of documentation covering the configuration of the fighter's integrated avionics suite.

There are currently five T-50 prototypes - the latest, T-50-5, first flew on 27 October 2013 - supporting the development programme and they are believed to have undertaken over 300 sorties to date.

In the 'Schedule of Activity for the Russian Ministry of Defence for 2013 to 2020' published in mid-2013, the PAK FA's Initial Operational Capability and the launch of full-scale series production is scheduled for 31 December 2016. The Russian National Armament Programme stipulates that 60 production PAK FA fighters will be delivered between 2016 and 2020.

The assembly of aircraft T-50-6-1 is nearing completion and three further aircraft (T-50-6-2, T-50-7 and T-50-8) are in build. One of the T-50-6 aircraft is intended for static trials and the other one is intended for flight testing.




The PAK FA's designers have paid close attention to stealthy features, which include the use of radar-absorbent coatings on the reverse of the nose-mounted IRST, the widespread use of baffles and the use of absorbent coatings in the air intakes and at the junctions between moving surfaces. (Sukhoi)
(632 words)


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

damn nigga, thats a nice piece....

i wonder if any of our PAF boys do Breitling watches


----------



## farhanalee7

Is that true that PAF will become 2 Planes Airforce JF-17 and F-16???


----------



## fatman17

farhanalee7 said:


> Is that true that PAF will become 2 Planes Airforce JF-17 and F-16???


 
in the medium term - probably until the F-20 (J-10) or J-31 is inducted.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Thorough Pro

no upgrade is comparable to other, even for the same plane. These designations are not associated with some specific type of upgrades, its manufacturer/Operator choice to differentiate between planes of the same class with different capabilities




Ra'ad said:


> Hi,
> Regarding the designation of upgraded models of aircraft, what is the difference between blocks and ABCD model designations. Both represent upgraded models.
> 
> Like our upgraded thunder is called block 2, while the Chinese are naming their upgraded j10 as j10a, j10b, j10c.
> 
> And for that matter, the f16 we bought is block52 and C/D. Do these separate designations show separate upgrades?


----------



## LonE_WolF

farhanalee7 said:


> Is that true that PAF will become 2 Planes Airforce JF-17 and F-16???


in the short term, yes.
but if the economy recovers, then we may see another platform as well.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## farhanalee7

LonE_WolF said:


> in the short term, yes.
> but if the economy recovers, then we may see another platform as well.


What are we going to do with f7s and Mirages??


----------



## LonE_WolF

farhanalee7 said:


> What are we going to do with f7s and Mirages??


they will be replaced by JF-17's


----------



## Indus Falcon

farhanalee7 said:


> What are we going to do with f7s and Mirages??


PAF Museums!


----------



## Luftwaffe

farhanalee7 said:


> What are we going to do with f7s and Mirages??



Almost 180 F-7 variants with 63-65 F-7PGs that could be retired by 2022 will be preserved in storage where as F-7Ps will go to scrapyard and a couple or so could end up in museum. Same is going to be the fate of Mirage Rose I/II/III in next 10 years all might end up in storage where as the non Rose goes to scrapyard and couple or so to museum and a few as decorations in parks public places or and bases.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indus Falcon

Luftwaffe said:


> Almost 180 F-7 variants with 63-65 F-7PGs that could be retired by 2022 will be preserved in storage where as F-7Ps will go to scrapyard and a couple or so could end up in museum. Same is going to be the fate of Mirage Rose I/II/III in next 10 years all might end up in storage where as the non Rose goes to scrapyard and couple or so to museum and a few as decorations in parks public places or and bases.



Don't forget chorangees!!


----------



## Want to be GD (P)

Sir, I registered my cousin for Paf as Civillian staff 2014 vacancies online. But date of Birth is wrong I want to change his birthday and his exam date is 18-08-2014 .Please tell.how can I change his birthday.


----------



## Xeric

Is it wrong on Form B or Matric certificate?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Genesis

BTW, why is Pakistan not going after F-35, expensive yes, but very potent. Seems the better option than waiting for a J-31 or 20 or any other 5th gen fighter.

America and Pakistan are still allies right? F-35 would seem the perfect fit to counter any Indian 5th generation and could potentially be a decade + earlier than Indian 5th.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Want to be GD (P)

Xeric said:


> Is it wrong on Form B or Matric certificate?


Matric certificate mein 12-05-1992
lekin Paf registration mein galti se 12-04-1993 lag gya hai.
Ab ye kaise change hoga.


----------



## Xeric

Want to be GD (P) said:


> Matric certificate mein 12-05-1992
> lekin Paf registration mein galti se 12-04-1993 lag gya hai.
> Ab ye kaise change hoga.


It shouldnt be a problem, just tell them, they would do it.


----------



## Want to be GD (P)

Xeric said:


> It shouldnt be a problem, just tell them, they would do it.


Thanks
Exam waley din bhi kar k dein gye.


----------



## Xeric

Want to be GD (P) said:


> Thanks
> Exam waley din bhi kar k dein gye.


How did this happen? Didnt he show his matric cert to them during enrollment?


----------



## Want to be GD (P)

Xeric said:


> How did this happen? Didnt he show his matric cert to them during enrollment?


We have done online registration.
Kya ye exam wale din sahi ho jai ga.


----------



## Hammad-ROX

fatman17 said:


> in the medium term - probably until the F-20 (J-10) or J-31 is inducted.




Why PAF is going for J 31 instead of J 20?


----------



## Pakistan_airforce

its 2014 and most of the countries have moden aircrafts though they are less in numbers but they are technology advanced but pakistan air force is still using old crap every air force retired their mirages but paf still using it bcz paf prefer numbers over quality.. ,j7 these both are (3rd generation fighters) old f16s and 3.5 generation j17 so i want to ask how long will pakistan use these old jets?? thanks must answer!!


----------



## Side-Winder

Pakistan_airforce said:


> its 2014 and most of the countries have moden aircrafts though they are less in numbers but they are technology advanced but pakistan air force is still using old crap every air force retired their mirages but paf still using it bcz paf prefer numbers over quality.. ,j7 these both are (3rd generation fighters) old f16s and 3.5 generation j17 so i want to ask how long will pakistan use these old jets?? thanks must answer!!



As JF-17 Production Continues, Replacement for aging fleet of Mirages and F-7s is being done... They can't just retire them over night with no suitable replacement.


----------



## Counter-Errorist

When we have the money for it

You'd me amazed at what PAF has managed with the relatively little funds its got

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Pakistanisage

As soon as we can bring back the stolen 200 million USD by the Politicians back to Pakistan...


----------



## JOEY TRIBIANI

Pakistanisage said:


> As soon as we can bring back the stolen 200 million USD by the Politicians back to Pakistan...


itz 200 billions .

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Echo_419

Pakistanisage said:


> As soon as we can bring back the stolen 200_* Billion *_USD by the Politicians back to Pakistan...



corrected that for you


----------



## Hyperion

When people stop voting for people such as Nawaz Sharif! 

On point: We don't face any immediate threat from abroad.......... we need to focus internally and clean our house first......... 



Pakistan_airforce said:


> its 2014 and most of the countries have moden aircrafts though they are less in numbers but they are technology advanced but pakistan air force is still using old crap every air force retired their mirages but paf still using it bcz paf prefer numbers over quality.. ,j7 these both are (3rd generation fighters) old f16s and 3.5 generation j17 so i want to ask how long will pakistan use these old jets?? thanks must answer!!


----------



## FaujHistorian

Counter-Errorist said:


> When we have the money for it
> 
> You'd me amazed at what PAF has managed with the relatively little funds its got



Agreed!


to be more precise!


When we'll have DOLLARS to pay for it. 


Rupee cannot be used to buy expenseive military hardware. 

We need dollars, euoros, pounds and gold to buy such things. 

And unfortunately as a nation, we refuse to work hard for the West to earn dollars, euoros, pounds and gold.

Chinese work hard for the West to earn dollars, euoros, pounds and gold. But Pakistanis cannot. 
Japanese work hard for the West to earn dollars, euoros, pounds and gold. But Pakistanis cannot. 
Indians work hard for the West to earn dollars, euoros, pounds and gold. But Pakistanis cannot. 
S, Koreans work hard for the West to earn dollars, euoros, pounds and gold. But Pakistanis cannot. 
Taiwanese work hard for the West to earn dollars, euoros, pounds and gold. But Pakistanis cannot. 


Why? Pakistanis cannot work hard for the West to earn dollars, euoros, pounds and gold. 


That's the million dollar question. 


Once you have the answer,

And 

Pakistanis start working hard for the West to earn dollars, euoros, pounds and gold. 

We will be able to modernize our AF like Chinese. 
We will be able to modernize our AF like Indians. 


Hope you all understand it now. 


Thank you



JOEY TRIBIANI said:


> itz 200 billions .



hahahahah


I can say 200 trillions. 

As long we are all boasting wihtout documentary evidence and bank statements, 

we can continue adding zeros. 

Zero is easy to add. no effort needed.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Stealth

When 3 - 5 more OBL type Raid ... phir **** Fund b ajayeengay


----------



## The SC

Aeronaut said:


> Because i will buy the Typhoons on maximum industrial technology seeding contracts, with full avionics, AESA radar, composite materials and EJ-200 technology transfer. Then i will use the EJ-200s produced in Pakistan to power the JF-17s new blocks, then i will upgrade the EJ-200 to a 100 Kn output configuration and join SAC J-31 Research,development and production as a full partner.
> 
> Then i'll utilise the upgraded EJ-200 to power the J-31. So i'd have 3 jets 1 engine = low operating and maintenance/spare parts costs = more jets we could buy = an air force lethal enough to match the capabilities of our highly trained and deadly pilots. Lastly, i would use the same EJ-200 technology to develop smaller turbofans to extend Babur cruise missile's range up to 2500-kms which means i would have the ability to launch a stealthy conventional attack on 100% Indian territory, day or night at moment's notice.
> 
> Now you know why i'd buy Typhoons instead of F-15s, and yes you, are free to call that my wishful thinking.


Is KSA getting all that ToT?


----------



## Luftwaffe

@The SC don;t give heed to wishful thinking always go with logic and rational mind and stay in reality and improve upon it, Pakistan's problem is we wish alot and do little by ourselves.


----------



## Soldier-X

i wanna ask about the salary plan of airmen..how much starting salary an aero technician or aero support man got ?


----------



## zeeshanvita

cadet zain said:


> i wanna ask about the salary plan of airmen..how much starting salary an aero technician or aero support man got ?


why...............????????????????


----------



## Soldier-X

zeeshanvita said:


> why...............????????????????


becuase one of my friend is planning to apply for airmen job. i only have some info about army's departments but dnt know much about paf thats why....


----------



## Junaid Ashraf

About Mirages:
How many ex-operators of Mirage-III&Vs are who can easily provide PAF with French approval spares for engine and airframe? And will Egypt going to sell PAF their 80 Mirage-Vs???

Also later on, Will PAF be able to gain UAE-Qatri-Egypt's Mirage-2000s by giving them money or like Qatar(whose relation with Pakistan is growing) will pay for the machines to Egypt and UAE.


----------



## Syed Naeem shahzad

Imran Khan said:


> can any body answer me who give pakistan F5 jets tempary in 1971 war.


china i think


----------



## Syed Naeem shahzad

sohailbutt said:


> salamualikum to all,
> 
> guys i was thinkin abut PAF F-16's, we will need to replace them after 2025 (well I'm not sure abut the date but it's just a guess), PAF has always kept a technological edge over it's adversorie's, by keeping modern aircraft like f-16's in it's inventory, we all know that f-16 is a multirole fighter, wut i would like to ask is that in the future when we need to replace these f-16's which western jet we will be goin for????
> 
> I read somewhere that f-35's (Multirole fighter) would replace US f-16's as f-35's would in the future take over the role of f-16's for US and many other countries which includes our friend n brother nation of Turkey.
> 
> Will PAF also be lookin for F-35's after 2025 as a replacement for its F-16's, or will it be another westernjet?????



i think PAF Should enhance this bird also because performance wise it was the best bird in his period. but now we have to face many new challenges and new technology. So we have to make some new Flying birds like JF-17 thunder. replace or ground these birds???


----------



## nana41

Imran Khan said:


> can any body answer me who give pakistan F5 jets tempary in 1971 war.


Kingdom of Jordan.


----------



## Cyberian

Can someone please confirm what bomb/rocket is used by Pakistan Air Force to destroy the simulated runway in this video at 7:00?


----------



## Bratva

SUPARCO said:


> Can someone please confirm what bomb/rocket is used by Pakistan Air Force to destroy the simulated runway in this video at 7:00?



Hafr-1 a.k.a matra durandal Runway Penetration Bomb

Pakistan & Azerbaijan to Cooperate on Runway Penetration Bomb | Pakistan Military Review

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Maaaz Khan

Jordanian F-5s were actually offered by turkey based in maripur.


----------



## SipahSalar

Can anyone give me their non-patriotic and unbiased opinion on how good the JF 17 really is? And how do you feel it will perform against the evolving air threats from India? Will it be able to hold its own vs SU-27s?


----------



## MastanKhan

SipahSalar said:


> Can anyone give me their non-patriotic and unbiased opinion on how good the JF 17 really is? And how do you feel it will perform against the evolving air threats from India? Will it be able to hold its own vs SU-27s?



Hi,

The un-patriotic version is here on the board----look for it.


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

Wanted to know if the A5's can be restored and brought back into PAF service to do bombing missions against the Talibans.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## truthseeker2010

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Wanted to know if the A5's can be restored and brought back into PAF service to do bombing missions against the Talibans.



no need to do that JF-17 and Mirages would be far better in every aspect.......


----------



## A2Z

When will PAF get the first JF-17 block 2? I heard first 5 will be delivered by the end of the year i.e, 2014.


----------



## Mugwop

Hammad-ROX said:


> Why PAF is going for J 31 instead of J 20?


PAF doesn't like large fighters


----------



## Khaliquk

.


----------



## Oruc

Could anyone plz id this aircraft? Might be a f-7 with tail section missing.  Or is it a mirage?
The single one parked at the back.
@Oscar

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## syed_yusuf

FireAngel said:


> Could anyone plz id this aircraft? Might be a f-7 with tail section missing.  Or is it a mirage?
> The single one parked at the back.
> @Oscar



One mirage and the rest are F-7

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## khanasifm

MKI BARS performance from the OEM

Radar control system "BARS" for Su-30MKI, Su-30MKA, Su-30MKM fighters

interesting MiG29 type detection 140km not 300 km as speculated, ground resolution 10...20 meters, comparison apg 68 SAR mode resolution is 3 meters detection not sure but speculated ~105-120km 

300/400 km is perhaps for larger transport types.

APG 68 V9 has 6 on 6 processing power, 6 AMRAAMS on 6 different target simultaneously compared to previous version of APG 68. KLJ-7 currently has 2 on 2 capability

Keep in mind detection not tracking ranges, which is where u can launch weapons

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Manticore

latest paf fighter crash rate / year or /10,000 flying hours
@Horus

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

khanasifm said:


> MKI BARS performance from the OEM
> 
> Radar control system "BARS" for Su-30MKI, Su-30MKA, Su-30MKM fighters
> 
> interesting MiG29 type detection 140km not 300 km as speculated, ground resolution 10...20 meters, comparison apg 68 SAR mode resolution is 3 meters detection not sure but speculated ~105-120km
> 
> 300/400 km is perhaps for larger transport types.
> 
> APG 68 V9 has 6 on 6 processing power, 6 AMRAAMS on 6 different target simultaneously compared to previous version of APG 68. KLJ-7 currently has 2 on 2 capability
> 
> Keep in mind detection not tracking ranges, which is where u can launch weapons



Not sure about those figures for both APG or Mig29.......seems low for tracking range.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khanasifm

I think OEM/manufacturer of Radar would know their products and not advertise wrong data , they may exaggerate in their marketing material. APG 68 are from OEM site too if i remember correctly

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## razgriz19

Does PAC manufactures tires for our jets?
or do they at least retread them?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## A2Z

Is PAF planning to get more ZDK-03?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Drebin

Hello all respected members. Hope everyone is doing well. I was hoping to gain a better understanding of what defines an air superiority fighter and, why Pakistan chooses multirole over air superiority fighter? Furthermore, what encompasses avionics suite? 

An elaborate and detailed ans will be highly appreciated. 

Peace.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## araz

razgriz19 said:


> Does PAC manufactures tires for our jets?
> or do they at least retread them?


No they have full level depot management for the tyres. They even have the khokha with phajja tyre puncture repair shop written on it.
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Taygibay

Drebin said:


> I was hoping to gain a better understanding of what defines an air superiority fighter and, why Pakistan chooses multirole over air superiority fighter? Furthermore, what encompasses avionics suite?
> 
> An elaborate and detailed ans will be highly appreciated.



 WOW? That's all? Would you like a dessert and coffee with that? 

I'll attempt a sketch because a proper answer would take pages, Drebin.
( Good to see you again by the way! )

Fighter types run many missions hence the modern multi-role moniker.
The two most basic ones are air to air vs air to ground missions.
Ideally, a jet that bombs should be able to defend itself from other ACs.
But that depends a lot on its age of design and context of use ( local AF ).

Pure bombers on the other end ( long range types : the Ru Bears / US B2 )
may lack any ability to defend themselves, sometimes _escorted to provide
it_ and sometimes to _go far, unload and attempt to return but not expected to.
_
To face ground level threats and bomb ( air support ), a fighter should be
sturdy, even slow and with avionics favoring ground detection & targeting.
To protect the overall battle field, a fighter should stay higher with ability to
target enemy air platforms ( including slow helos & fast jets ) ideally from a
bit farther with avionics suited to finding and engaging such targets.
To allow the above types to operate safely and to ward off the long range 
fighters, a fighter should stay a high as possible and fire from very far as
to keep the zone behind/below fighter free with avionics suited to that task.

The latest is the air superiority mission profile in its true sense.

The best example comes from the USA today :
The F-22 is made to down enemy planes at a distance, using its range to
get to them both over their own land or at least NOT over its own territory.
The F-35 is ( will have been ) made to face enemy fighters and air defense
above and around a contested zone, ground to air, wherever one happens.

Yes, modern electronics and designs mean that the Raptor will get decent
bombing capacity but it is a bonus.
The best way to see the differences in mission profiles uses layers thus :
20-50 km diameter area on the ground equals battlefield / meters high ceiling.
10 km diameter half sphere centered on the previous is the CAS bubble.
20 km and beyond half sphere is where the aircrafts from air support face off
with each other.
Outside of this is the realm of air superiority proper to keep clean from menace.

You do need to understand that what I said above mixes and matches though.
Air superiority can take place with and between different types inside the 20K.


To summarize, an air superiority fighter should : go high and fast with almost
only air to air weapons to secure interdiction of a high volume airspace, so that
it needs the best in radar, fuel, missiles all at max range available.

Geography ( country size ) is the biggest motivation to own a dedicated design
air superiority fighter. Thanks to the aforementioned modern day avionics and
engines, smaller lands can use multi-role fighters for the task relatively "safely".

Don't hesitate to ask for specific developments from this nutshell explanation,
Tay.

P.S. "Avionics" ( everything electronic needed to make the plane fulfill its job )
was used to shorten the answer, mission equipments is a better term from my
viewpoint since civilian aircrafts have avionics too & no war related electronics.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Ankit Kumar 001

Hi
I have got some questions.
1.Pakistan bought many Libyan mirages after 2000. Are they flying or being used as spares?
2.Does Pakistan actually operates gunships based on Puma helicopters?
I will be thankful for the answers.
Cheers
Thanks

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Taygibay

*Ankit Kumar 001*

The Pumas ( IAR 330 ) exist :
*Pakistan*

*S:* Romania 4 SA-330 Puma Helicopter (1987) 1988 4 IAR-330 version
I have no correct information on their present state, sorry.

The Mirage from Libya were bought for parts from the onset though. The ones that saw the ROSE III upgrade
are those ( 40 - 1 = 39 ) gotten from France itself.
No direct confirmation exists of this save in checking numbers but you can cross-reference it with these sources :
PAF Falcons - Picture Gallery - Mirage III/V Pictures album
Delivery of Libyan Mirages begins - Newspaper - DAWN.COM
""The shipment of grounded Libyan Mirages (of type 3 and 5) has begun and the PAF will use their spares to keep its fleet operational," an air force spokesman told Deutsche Presse-Agentur (dpa)."

Have a great day, Tay.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Drebin

Taygibay said:


> WOW? That's all? Would you like a dessert and coffee with that?
> 
> I'll attempt a sketch because a proper answer would take pages, Drebin.
> ( Good to see you again by the way! )
> 
> Fighter types run many missions hence the modern multi-role moniker.
> The two most basic ones are air to air vs air to ground missions.
> Ideally, a jet that bombs should be able to defend itself from other ACs.
> But that depends a lot on its age of design and context of use ( local AF ).
> 
> Pure bombers on the other end ( long range types : the Ru Bears / US B2 )
> may lack any ability to defend themselves, sometimes _escorted to provide
> it_ and sometimes to _go far, unload and attempt to return but not expected to.
> _
> To face ground level threats and bomb ( air support ), a fighter should be
> sturdy, even slow and with avionics favoring ground detection & targeting.
> To protect the overall battle field, a fighter should stay higher with ability to
> target enemy air platforms ( including slow helos & fast jets ) ideally from a
> bit farther with avionics suited to finding and engaging such targets.
> To allow the above types to operate safely and to ward off the long range
> fighters, a fighter should stay a high as possible and fire from very far as
> to keep the zone behind/below fighter free with avionics suited to that task.
> 
> The latest is the air superiority mission profile in its true sense.
> 
> The best example comes from the USA today :
> The F-22 is made to down enemy planes at a distance, using its range to
> get to them both over their own land or at least NOT over its own territory.
> The F-35 is ( will have been ) made to face enemy fighters and air defense
> above and around a contested zone, ground to air, wherever one happens.
> 
> Yes, modern electronics and designs mean that the Raptor will get decent
> bombing capacity but it is a bonus.
> The best way to see the differences in mission profiles uses layers thus :
> 20-50 km diameter area on the ground equals battlefield / meters high ceiling.
> 10 km diameter half sphere centered on the previous is the CAS bubble.
> 20 km and beyond half sphere is where the aircrafts from air support face off
> with each other.
> Outside of this is the realm of air superiority proper to keep clean from menace.
> 
> You do need to understand that what I said above mixes and matches though.
> Air superiority can take place with and between different types inside the 20K.
> 
> 
> To summarize, an air superiority fighter should : go high and fast with almost
> only air to air weapons to secure interdiction of a high volume airspace, so that
> it needs the best in radar, fuel, missiles all at max range available.
> 
> Geography ( country size ) is the biggest motivation to own a dedicated design
> air superiority fighter. Thanks to the aforementioned modern day avionics and
> engines, smaller lands can use multi-role fighters for the task relatively "safely".
> 
> Don't hesitate to ask for specific developments from this nutshell explanation,
> Tay.
> 
> P.S. "Avionics" ( everything electronic needed to make the plane fulfill its job )
> was used to shorten the answer, mission equipments is a better term from my
> viewpoint since civilian aircrafts have avionics too & no war related electronics.



Hello Tay. . . Great to see you brother. How are you doing?

It's truly a great feeling that it's you who happen to reply me just like my first ever quarry/post you addressed on this forum . Although I'm sorry for my late reply to your ever so informative ans.

Now let me start by first thanking you for sparing time and energy for an excellent ans which was both, concise yet self explanatory. And now that I've a bit better understanding of aircraft type or role, let me ask you that why haven't PAF ever opted for such aircraft type? You said that the biggest motivation for a country to acquire such an aircraft is it's geography (size). By that I assume you meant a country with a larger land mass has a greater affinity or motivation to acquire an air superiority fighter versus the country with a smaller overall area. Yet, I see a country as small as Singapore boasting F-15s. I can't say educatedly about South Korea but, I'M ASSUMING HERE that it's geographically a smaller state compared to Pakistan and still, it also has F-15s as it's lead attack warplane. My point is, considering the threat perception of both the countries, I don't really see a threat which can't be tackled with relative ease with the F-16s the individual country possess and yet, they opted to go for an air superiority platform. Why? And here we've our so called arch rival India boasting Flankers - which were custom designed to take on F-15s - as their lead platform to cripple PAF and, establish an absolute air superiority to facilitate their war effort on ground. And this is a typical modern day war scenario that whichever country successfully establishes air superiority, war then tends to turn in their favor. And we've seen clear examples of this move starting with early U.S wars and then, being perfected by the time of gulf wars (both) and in Afghanistan in 2001 and now the latest in move to repel ISIS in middle east using their prized Raptors.

I understand that vipers and even Thunders with support of AEW&C airplanes can take on Indian Sukhois. But, the question is that what will be their survival chances versus if PAF had a dedicated air superiority platform like F-15?

Of course, I always here the same petty argument about PAF lacking funds. But that wasn't always the case, was it? Till the Soviet collapse, Pakistan was economically doing well then India. Even after Henery Kessinger's threat to Bhutto of making an example out of him - which they did BTW - pakistan successfully managed to build an atomic bomb right under CIA's noses - which they knew of course but, acted being oblivious of the fact - and even got it's first F-16s! Question is, PAF knowing full well of India's numerical majority and it induction policay of an air superiority fighters in it's air force in mid to long term, why did PAF stayed oblivious to it and never thought about inducting a similar platform in it's own ranks? I can understand that at that time India did not plan to attain Flankers and Vipers were more then an adequate ans to whatever India could throw at us but, isn't it shortsightedness on PAFs' behalf to see such a move coming? Or should I say that it was an intelligence failure which could not timely inform PAF of IAF's plans?

With these questions and scenarios Tay, I'm probably trying to get a better understanding of PAF's mind pent then anything else. Because, it's severely disappointing and disheartening to know that PAF has pinned our future to just 7 days of war making effort after which, it will be completely destroyed .

And now in any discussion, we repeatedly get told or scold by senior members that PAF is massively cash strapped. Not just that but, in older days PAF even though having a history of operating twin engine jets, now wouldn't because of expansive nature of such planes. That all seems a - I'm sorry to say - a bit ridiculous.

P.S, I'm sorry for any mistakes that I might have made in the entire reply because of my lack of knowledge. But your reply would be invaluable in helping me better understand the different aspects of topic at hand. And lastly, I'm indebted for your time, patience and resolve in helping noobs like me and answering our every quarry willingly and with smile. God bless you brother .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Taygibay

First, YVW ( you're very welcome )! It's always a pleasure to talk with someone as inquisitive and polite as yourself, Drebin my friend!



Drebin said:


> and yet, they opted to go for an air superiority platform. Why?


You gave 2 main examples :
Singapore will have to fight feet wet ( over water ) and so will South Korea. The best way to do that is with long range fighters, customarily the case of sir superiority ACs.
Pakistan, by comparison would fight India over dry mountainous terrain. Up to a degree, considering the size of Pakistan and its geographical characteristics, it could almost rely solely on ground based missiles à la Iron Dome for Israel and stay secure from India that way. It costs less than fighters, you know?
Air assets in Switzerland come to mind, where the sole reason for jets is air policing i.e. checking stray jetliners. They don't even react out of business hours as pilots are home with family?!!? Their territory is so small anyhow that by the time their fast jets are up in the air, the "menace" has usually left their airspace in any case!!! Weird but all true!

Second, South Korea is geared to fight China but ( and it holds for Singapore too ) *not alone*!!! Their relationship with the USA is secure if it somewhat makes them indentured which they likely find a correct price to pay. In that respect, their choices are in big part dictated by help ( both technological and financial ) from America and by a desire to have weapons that will integrate as seamlessly as possible with the USN.
Pakistan is more autonomous and plays a bit of each power ( China, US, some Russian, some French ). The variations in reliability of each source ( mostly due to political shifts ) are more important and buying solely from one source would make it too dependent which I trust your country wants to avoid.

A lot of times, nations spend too much for capacities they'll never use, often just to look powerful! I'm thinking Middle-East here. And most air forces with lots of fighters are for making war away from your land. I trust Pakistan does not intend to invade either Liberia or Liechtenstein!



Drebin said:


> And we've seen clear examples of this move starting with early U.S wars and then, being perfected by the time of gulf wars (both) and in Afghanistan in 2001 and now the latest in move to repel ISIS in middle east using their prized Raptors.


It refers to image, politics and sales, brother!
A- Using the best fighter around is a symbol of supremacy.
B- Using the Cold War/WW III tailored Raptor helps convince Congress and the taxpayers that their money was put to good use ( regardless of whether this is true or not ).
C- If the Raptor bombs ISIL, by trickle down, those wanting a top notch fighter are more likely to invest in F-35s ( the F-22 line itself being shut down ).
Combat proven is an important label for commercial reasons, no matter how shallow that may sound and in fact be!



Drebin said:


> Because, it's severely disappointing and disheartening to know that PAF has pinned our future to just 7 days of war making effort after which, it will be completely destroyed .


Now, now, let's not over react, young Jedi! 7 days for the next wars is actually a long time. If all hell broke loose, Pakistan and India might well be radioactive long before their air forces run out of jets. You do have this deterrence thinghie called Nukes, remember? But even if the scenario was more limited in scope, again, it has to take into account alliances. If say India attacked first and for the conventional kill, China could take some edge off by closing the Nepal-
Bangladesh-Bhutan "strait" isolating Assam and Arunachal Pradesh while also intervening in Aksai Chin and Jammu&Kashmir and so on. If the situation called for it, it would not take Beijing a week to decide and act upon that!
So that it then depends on the relation and agreements or treaties between Islamabad and the PRC of which I am not privy and I surmise neither are you?
I'm not saying this reaction would automatically ensue but New Delhi certainly knows it could which is why the IAF format is geared towards a two fronts war?
To give you a far fetched but still applicable example, do you remember the AQMI et consorts attempt to nab Bamako?
Those *cough, cough* bright jihadis* only *forgot ( or possibly ignored ) that Paris had sworn to defend its ex-colony at independence time through a military accord. It cost them success of their endeavor, loss of gains made so far and a little over 2,000 men in a few months and by rebound created the Barkhane grouping of Mauritania, Burkina-Faso, Mali, Niger and Chad with France that now cuts their traditional sources of revenues by smuggling across the Sahel.
While most peeps forget about these things and some such agreements ( Ukraine CSCE/UN assurances come to mind again ) are truly not worth the paper they're signed on, sincere relations sometimes exists far beyond what was expected and ignorance of as over-reliance on this can be quite costly?

What I am saying is that while your questioning is perfectly valid, past a given point, it becomes conspiracy theory or at least day dreaming to read to much into a secret book in a code you can't decipher?
I understand your worries fully but they may ( hopefully for your country ) not be founded. Again, all nations that maintain huge air forces are either deeply paranoid or intent on conquest, very often both! Don't be too disappointed if it is not the case for Pakistan? 

And lastly, in echo of up there, it is a pleasure to answer honest queries from someone wise enough to ask in order to learn. Your questions are uttered by a soothing voice amongst the noise of such things as Internet fora ( no disrespect of PDF in particular ). Talking with such a gentle soul as yourself is its own reward for time spent. I only hope to always be able to provide no matter how unlikely since I do not know all about all.

May God keep you and yours safe and may your spirit soar for a long time little brother, Tay.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

khanasifm said:


> MKI BARS performance from the OEM
> 
> Keep in mind detection not tracking ranges, which is where u can launch weapons



There is a lot more to be said about radar performance by ideal claims...environmental conditions, serviceability, receiver sensitivity, ECM, and rcs as it relates to swirling I target and target aspect to radar. Rest is just claims for entertainment. PAF has some very capability air intercept radars that are good enough for for the job.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## fazeel baig

May be Turkey

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## alimobin memon

khanasifm said:


> MKI BARS performance from the OEM
> 
> Radar control system "BARS" for Su-30MKI, Su-30MKA, Su-30MKM fighters
> 
> interesting MiG29 type detection 140km not 300 km as speculated, ground resolution 10...20 meters, comparison apg 68 SAR mode resolution is 3 meters detection not sure but speculated ~105-120km
> 
> 300/400 km is perhaps for larger transport types.
> 
> APG 68 V9 has 6 on 6 processing power, 6 AMRAAMS on 6 different target simultaneously compared to previous version of APG 68. KLJ-7 currently has 2 on 2 capability
> 
> Keep in mind detection not tracking ranges, which is where u can launch weapons


I dont understand why people still believe its 2 on 2 for klj7. its 2 on 2 for Semi Active radar. and for Active radar which is now only used probably is on 4 on 4 mode.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## chou.wong

My Pakistan friends let me introduce some fighter plane from china ! It the most advanced plane in china better than FC-31. we call it jian-20.bellow is the address

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## HRK

Is there any member who can help to find the details about *M/s Indra’s EW Suite Controller *

@Horus , @Oscar .... do you people know about this sys ..... 

thnx in advance

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hammad azhar

Pakistan has interest to buy J-10 chinies jet


----------



## boke

如果不是为了现实紧迫的需要，我觉得还是应该走JF-17的道路，即：联合研发，本国能够自主生产，改进提高，这样才能最大限度的提升本国的军事势力保障本国的国防安全不会受制于人。巴基斯坦装备了美制和中国产的装备，当然也有别的国家的，来源多样化有好处也有坏处，弊端之一就在于通用性和后勤保障，未来的发展应该巴基斯坦化，即：形成巴基斯坦的军工标准，首要形成自己的特色和保障能力，其次兼顾通用性！

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

boke said:


> 如果不是为了现实紧迫的需要，我觉得还是应该走JF-17的道路，即：联合研发，本国能够自主生产，改进提高，这样才能最大限度的提升本国的军事势力保障本国的国防安全不会受制于人。巴基斯坦装备了美制和中国产的装备，当然也有别的国家的，来源多样化有好处也有坏处，弊端之一就在于通用性和后勤保障，未来的发展应该巴基斯坦化，即：形成巴基斯坦的军工标准，首要形成自己的特色和保障能力，其次兼顾通用性！



Translation 

If not for the real pressing needs , I think it should take the road of JF-17 , namely: joint research and development , the country can be independent production, improvement to improve , so as to maximize the country's military forces to enhance the protection of the country's national security is not controlled by others . Pakistan equipped with US-made and Chinese-made equipment , of course, there are other countries , diversification of sources have advantages and disadvantages , one of the drawbacks is that the versatility and logistical support, should be Pakistan 's future development , that is : the formation of Pakistan's military standards primary formed its own characteristics and support capabilities , followed by both versatility !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

boke said:


> 如果不是为了现实紧迫的需要，我觉得还是应该走JF-17的道路，即：联合研发，本国能够自主生产，改进提高，这样才能最大限度的提升本国的军事势力保障本国的国防安全不会受制于人。巴基斯坦装备了美制和中国产的装备，当然也有别的国家的，来源多样化有好处也有坏处，弊端之一就在于通用性和后勤保障，未来的发展应该巴基斯坦化，即：形成巴基斯坦的军工标准，首要形成自己的特色和保障能力，其次兼顾通用性！



巴基斯坦空军一直在寻找开发一种战斗机可能超过F-7的和F- 16的性能，所以他们开发出了超级7.如果我们回头看它的设计是一个混合米格和F - 16 。虽然后来由于PAF的财务问题和有利于J- 10上提出的以色列LAVI因为这是在性能上的F-16区块的类似设计的后盾出中国空军从这个项目15.中国也无法出售这些飞机甚至无法透露这个项目，直到它完成，它是要被引导。

考虑到这些东西PAF有JF- 17可以进一步发展。过了一段时间回来据报道，总理纳瓦兹·谢里夫曾下令对JF- 17隐形版本。


Pakistan Air Force was looking to develop a fighter aircraft which could exceed the performance of F-7's and F-16's, so they developed the Super 7. If we do look back at it the design was a mixture Mig and F-16. Though later on due to financial issues of PAF and the backing out of PLAAF from this project in favor of J-10 a design made on the Israeli LAVI as that was similar in performance to that of F-16 block 15. China was also unable to sell these aircraft or even was unable to disclose this project till it was complete and it was about to be inducted. 

Considering these things PAF has the JF-17 which can be further developed. Some time back it was reported that the Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif had ordered a stealth version of JF-17.


----------



## MR J

can anybody tell me who is the latest CPD JF-17. Seems some serious change in June


----------



## JamD

I have a question regarding the IL-78 we operate.

Can the crew compartment be pressurized independently of the cargo bay to, lets say, open the bay doors at cruising altitude?

I have read that some versions of the IL-76 could do this but can our models do this? Someone working with the IL-78 can probably answer this. I'm hoping someone on the forum is and is reading this.


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

MR J said:


> can anybody tell me who is the latest CPD JF-17. Seems some serious change in June


Air Marshal Iqbal is the new CPD. AVM Arshad Malik is being transferred to PAC as Vice Chairman.



JamD said:


> I have a question regarding the IL-78 we operate.
> 
> Can the crew compartment be pressurized independently of the cargo bay to, lets say, open the bay doors at cruising altitude?
> 
> I have read that some versions of the IL-76 could do this but can our models do this? Someone working with the IL-78 can probably answer this. I'm hoping someone on the forum is and is reading this.



Why, do you plan to jump out of one anytime soon? IL76 and IL78, both have the crew compartment separated from Nav and Flight deck. Cargo bay can be de-pressurised while crew compartment remains pressurised. However, this is never done. There is a load-master in the crew compartment, and would be very uncomfortable. For para jumps for IL76-MD aircraft, a/c comes to a lower altitude.



araz said:


> No they have full level depot management for the tyres. They even have the khokha with phajja tyre puncture repair shop written on it.
> Araz


No aircraft tyres are manufactured or re-treaded in Pakistan.



Junaid Ashraf said:


> About Mirages:
> How many ex-operators of Mirage-III&Vs are who can easily provide PAF with French approval spares for engine and airframe? And will Egypt going to sell PAF their 80 Mirage-Vs???
> 
> Also later on, Will PAF be able to gain UAE-Qatri-Egypt's Mirage-2000s by giving them money or like Qatar(whose relation with Pakistan is growing) will pay for the machines to Egypt and UAE.



Mirages in PAF are on their way out. Egyptian Mirages are hardly Serviceable. There is enough spares and support available, including MRF to take care of our Mirages.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## JamD

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Why, do you plan to jump out of one anytime soon? IL76 and IL78, both have the crew compartment separated from Nav and Flight deck. Cargo bay can be de-pressurised while crew compartment remains pressurised. However, this is never done. There is a load-master in the crew compartment, and would be very uncomfortable. For para jumps for IL76-MD aircraft, a/c comes to a lower altitude.



I was asking because I was wondering what aircraft would we use for HALO/HAHO jumps for let's say 35,000 ft. We don't have the IL76 MD do we? We have the IL78 only no?

So it can be done but its never done? More to do with the load master feeling cold and sick? Do I understand correctly?


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

JamD said:


> I was asking because I was wondering what aircraft would we use for HALO/HAHO jumps for let's say 35,000 ft. We don't have the IL76 MD do we? We have the IL78 only no?
> 
> So it can be done but its never done? More to do with the load master feeling cold and sick? Do I understand correctly?



Russians do para jumps from their IL76MDs, but IL78 MIDAS in PK are not used for this purpose.



Luftwaffe said:


> Almost 180 F-7 variants with 63-65 F-7PGs that could be retired by 2022 will be preserved in storage where as F-7Ps will go to scrapyard and a couple or so could end up in museum. Same is going to be the fate of Mirage Rose I/II/III in next 10 years all might end up in storage where as the non Rose goes to scrapyard and couple or so to museum and a few as decorations in parks public places or and bases.



ROSEs will fly, so will PA2/PA3, rest will be decom

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MR J

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Air Marshal Iqbal is the new CPD. AVM Arshad Malik is being transferred to PAC as Vice Chairman.
> 
> Is Sir Iqbal from inter- service intelligence? please give me some hints


----------



## ROZELA

Please tell me how to chat any one here, i am new!!!!!!!!!!!!!! reply me soon as possible!


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

Air Marshal Iqbal was on secondment to outside posting, prior to his new assignment as CPD JF17 PMO.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MR J

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Air Marshal Iqbal was on secondment to outside posting, prior to his new assignment as CPD JF17 PMO.


secondment outside posting means he is assigned jobs in other countries? previously thought he was promoted from PAF system, seems he is not.


----------



## MastanKhan

ROZELA said:


> Please tell me how to chat any one here, i am new!!!!!!!!!!!!!! reply me soon as possible!



This is a defense forum honey---it is not a very friendly place for young kids to chat.


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

MR J said:


> secondment outside posting means he is assigned jobs in other countries? previously thought he was promoted from PAF system, seems he is not.


Secondment means he was not serving directly in PAF, as in this case he was in ISI, and now will be returning to a regular PAF position.


----------



## raazh

A general question here, @gambit @Oscar

Why are the fuel tanks on Delta planes (J10 and Mirage) attached almost with the wings while the ones on JF17, F16 and other non-delta ones attached with huge racks ?? Whats the science behind this and wont it be better to have smaller ones to safe extra weight ??


----------



## denel

Pals, any idea on the where about of vice airmarshall Rab Nawaz. I had learnt that his son had passed away in a fokker crash a few years back. I had the pleasure of meeting him many times.


----------



## princefaisal

What will be the status of Thompson Atlis II laser designator pod after the integration of new Sniper pods in F-16s?


----------



## Jango

JamD said:


> I was asking because I was wondering what aircraft would we use for HALO/HAHO jumps for let's say 35,000 ft. We don't have the IL76 MD do we? We have the IL78 only no?
> 
> So it can be done but its never done? More to do with the load master feeling cold and sick? Do I understand correctly?



From what I know, the IL-78 is a version of the IL-76MD...and the MD had independent pressurization of the cockpit and the cargo hold...so 78 would also have it I guess.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## saudaA

can anyone guide me abOut the criteria for ISSB Grading ?
what do we mean by :
ALPHA 
BRAVO 
CHARLIE 41,42,43,44
DELTA 
and what activities does effect this grading the most 
after recommendation some can't make it to the final merit list , the reason is perhaps grading 
how do we improve our grading ?


----------



## Defence Turkey

Turkish National Police Order Male and Tactical UAV Systems

Do you want to learn more information ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## untitled

My question is directed @MastanKhan but anyone else is welcome to respond

Since you claim that PAF has a history of acquisition blunders so would it help Pakistan better if PAF was merged in to the air wings of the Navy and Army? 

The US did not have a separate air force in WWII. All aircraft were operated by the army, navy and marines during the war.

Other countries that have taken this step in recent times are Canada and Belgium.

The RAF although not been disbanded but has too gotten rid of its once proud fighter and bomber commands.

By not having a separate air force the navy too can get its share of funds.

Your thoughts

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## untitled

raazh said:


> A general question here, @gambit @Oscar
> 
> Why are the fuel tanks on Delta planes (J10 Whats the science behind this and wont it be better to have smaller ones to safe extra weight ??



Have you seen pics of the typhoon rafale or the kfir?


----------



## raazh

persona_non_grata said:


> Have you seen pics of the typhoon rafale or the kfir?


yes, why u asked ??


----------



## MastanKhan

persona_non_grata said:


> My question is directed @MastanKhan but anyone else is welcome to respond
> 
> Since you claim that PAF has a history of acquisition blunders so would it help Pakistan better if PAF was merged in to the air wings of the Navy and Army?
> 
> The US did not have a separate air force in WWII. All aircraft were operated by the army, navy and marines during the war.
> 
> Other countries that have taken this step in recent times are Canada and Belgium.
> 
> The RAF although not been disbanded but has too gotten rid of its once proud fighter and bomber commands.
> 
> By not having a separate air force the navy too can get its share of funds.
> 
> Your thoughts



Hi,

Navy needs it own wing---I would not mind the air force being merged into the army.

There is no sense having a third wing-----. When the navy needs it and when the army needs it----it can call on its own resources.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## IrbiS

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Navy needs it own wing---I would not mind the air force being merged into the army.
> 
> There is no sense having a third wing-----. When the navy needs it and when the army needs it----it can call on its own resources.



Shouldn't we make our own version of Pentagon? a combined GHQ

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## untitled

raazh said:


> yes, why u asked ??


They are delta wings and an exception to the rule you mentioned


----------



## raazh

persona_non_grata said:


> They are delta wings and an exception to the rule you mentioned


How so?? In fact all these three delta aircraft also have the same small wing pylons like the mirages .. please google their images and compare the size of pylons with non-delta aircraft.


----------



## araz

persona_non_grata said:


> My question is directed @MastanKhan but anyone else is welcome to respond
> 
> Since you claim that PAF has a history of acquisition blunders so would it help Pakistan better if PAF was merged in to the air wings of the Navy and Army?
> 
> The US did not have a separate air force in WWII. All aircraft were operated by the army, navy and marines during the war.
> 
> Other countries that have taken this step in recent times are Canada and Belgium.
> 
> The RAF although not been disbanded but has too gotten rid of its once proud fighter and bomber commands.
> 
> By not having a separate air force the navy too can get its share of funds.
> 
> Your thoughts


It may or may not. My humble opinion is that PAFs problems stem from the lack of finances and from that point of view it would not help and at times political interference.
However from economical operations and better coordination I think it would be a fantastic move. Traditionally the country has three operational commands. If forces could be divided into commands and resources could be allocated it would cut the red tape and administrative overheads and possibly give a more coordinated force. As someone has mentioned the Navy's role is unique and only confined to the eastern command. Whether it can be integrated into the eastern command for better coordination or not is something which people who have been in the force can answer better@ Rashid Mahmood, @ Jaibi,@ Horus,@fatman17.
A


----------



## Paksanity

Defence Turkey said:


> Turkish National Police Order Male and Tactical UAV Systems
> 
> Do you want to learn more information ?



Welcome to PDF 
Go right ahead. Post in appropriate section.


----------



## hassan1




----------



## xiaahmad

What options PAF has against 
SU30-MKI
Rafales
and SU35 (in future)

I dont think F-16 and JF-17 can match these


----------



## Introvert

What's the difference between a twin engine fighter jet and the one that's not?


----------



## fital

Baazi said:


> What's the difference between a twin engine fighter jet and the one that's not?



The only reason their are 2 engine fighter jets is because if one engine fails you still have the other. The second engine does add extra weight but the power output compensates for it, easily.


----------



## A2Z

When will we see this kind of camera work with our fighters?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Silicon0000

Why their is unusually high number of flights of PAF Jets in the Sky of Karachi since last few hours?


----------



## mzeeshanfahd

guys can somebody help me out .... in understanding what is this ..... posted on FB 
(I am assuming its not PSed)






found it on Strategical Journal on 7 january

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

mzeeshanfahd said:


> guys can somebody help me out .... in understanding what is this ..... posted on FB
> (I am assuming its not PSed)
> 
> View attachment 292373
> 
> 
> found it on Strategical Journal on 7 january






Hi,

Surprised that you did not know abou it---that was when two pakistani F7PG's took on the F22---and you know what happens when pakistani pilots take on foreign pilots---!!!



Baazi said:


> What's the difference between a twin engine fighter jet and the one that's not?



Hi,

It is more powerful---can carry COMPARATIVELY more weight---fly longer distances---can carry more fuel and more weapons.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Khafee

mzeeshanfahd said:


> guys can somebody help me out .... in understanding what is this ..... posted on FB
> (I am assuming its not PSed)
> 
> View attachment 292373
> 
> 
> found it on Strategical Journal on 7 january



Here enjoy this bud 

*Iron Falcon 2009 - Abu Dhabi*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## baron von richtofen

Hello fellowmembers.
I had a query , i hope im posting it in the right section. I applied for 86TH CAE , my ISSB is clear , my CMB is clear but i didnt got the joining call for the course , as my ISSB s valid for one year im waiting for my chance for joining in 87th CAE. Is there anyone here who has gone through such a phase and could share about the chances..

Thankyou.


----------



## litman

Paksanity said:


> No, he wasn't a shallow person like some on this forum with false flags.


be realistic . how will you grade F-7PG against a raptor?



litman said:


> be realistic . how will you grade F-7PG against a raptor?


some years ago some one talked about the score of that exercise in which i guess F-7, F-16s, mirage 2000 and raptors..raptors clearly showed who is the daddy. all the other air crafts proved to be junk. F-7 is definitely the most obsolete jet in that exercise.


----------



## Paksanity

litman said:


> be realistic . how will you grade F-7PG against a raptor?
> 
> 
> some years ago some one talked about the score of that exercise in which i guess F-7, F-16s, mirage 2000 and raptors..raptors clearly showed who is the daddy. all the other air crafts proved to be junk. F-7 is definitely the most obsolete jet in that exercise.



Do you think these exercises are where pilots show off like rich brats gather to show off what daddy has bought him yesterday? As I said, they are far from shallow worthless beings.


----------



## litman

Paksanity said:


> Do you think these exercises are where pilots show off like rich brats gather to show off what daddy has bought him yesterday? As I said, they are far from shallow worthless beings.


these exercises are meant to determine how well the new platforms (jets/ missiles) perform against other dissimilar jets. in 2008 when the indians sent their su 30 to red flag the french sent their rafale to compare the two jets. the raptors simply outclassed the falcons, mirages and skybolts.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Paksanity

litman said:


> these exercises are meant to determine how well the new platforms (jets/ missiles) perform against other dissimilar jets. in 2008 when the indians sent their su 30 to red flag the french sent their rafale to compare the two jets. the raptors simply outclassed the falcons, mirages and skybolts.



Can you please share with us the results of this exercise? Obviously you were involved thoroughly in this exercise to know such things.


----------



## litman

Paksanity said:


> Can you please share with us the results of this exercise? Obviously you were involved thoroughly in this exercise to know such things.


sorry these are classified. and please don't make a statement for the sake of statement. thanx n bye


----------



## manaal

Can anybody tell me what's the maximum height requirement for females to join GDP?


----------



## Syed Asif Bukhari




----------



## Side-Winder

CGI work by Najam Khan from PAF wallpapers.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Syed Asif Bukhari

Thread closed



Side-Winder said:


> CGI work by Najam Khan from PAF wallpapers.


Thanks yaar


----------



## Zahoor Raja-Jani

Side-Winder said:


> CGI work by Najam Khan from PAF wallpapers.


JF 17 can drop LGB although pic was digitally modified.


----------



## Syed Asif Bukhari

Zahoor Raja-Jani said:


> JF 17 can drop LGB although pic was digitally modified.


which targeting pod is used by JF17?


----------



## Zahoor Raja-Jani

Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> which targeting pod is used by JF17?


Chinese-made WMD-7 Optical Targeting pod


----------



## AliWaqar

*Aslamoalikum to all of you, Mein 1st time post kar raha hun aur mery kuch Questions hain may b i will get answer *

1: hum Paf walon k pichy parey hain k wo yeah karain jab k jo PAF main mojod Experts hain kya wo beeter nai janty 

2: Jf17 Agar kisi Kabil nai tu is project ko Close q nai kiya jata?

3: Agar JF17 replacemnt k liye hai to Jf17 ko kis sy replace kiya jaye ga ?

4: Su 30 k counter k liye hamrey pass kun sa fighter jet hai ?

5 : Hq9 ka hamain kya faida jab India Russia sy S400 lay raha hai


----------



## Foxtrot-Bravo

AliWaqar said:


> *Aslamoalikum to all of you, Mein 1st time post kar raha hun aur mery kuch Questions hain may b i will get answer *
> 
> 1: hum Paf walon k pichy parey hain k wo yeah karain jab k jo PAF main mojod Experts hain kya wo beeter nai janty
> 
> 2: Jf17 Agar kisi Kabil nai tu is project ko Close q nai kiya jata?
> 
> 3: Agar JF17 replacemnt k liye hai to Jf17 ko kis sy replace kiya jaye ga ?
> 
> 4: Su 30 k counter k liye hamrey pass kun sa fighter jet hai ?
> 
> 5 : Hq9 ka hamain kya faida jab India Russia sy S400 lay raha hai




-----------------------------------

1- PAF has its own experts, what we do here is basically *Jhak Marna*, I mean we just give our point of views and opinions here.

2- It tells me you are pretty a recruit here, if you are not aware of JF-17s capabilities. Its your first priority multi role light weight attack aircraft and its far more capable then F-7s and Mirages, nearly equal or I would say a bit more than your present F-16s too.

3- Its currently replacing F-7s and will replace Mirages in the future too.

4 & 5, someone else would have better answers.


----------



## MastanKhan

AliWaqar said:


> *Aslamoalikum to all of you, Mein 1st time post kar raha hun aur mery kuch Questions hain may b i will get answer *
> 
> 1: hum Paf walon k pichy parey hain k wo yeah karain jab k jo PAF main mojod Experts hain kya wo beeter nai janty
> 
> 2: Jf17 Agar kisi Kabil nai tu is project ko Close q nai kiya jata?
> 
> 3: Agar JF17 replacemnt k liye hai to Jf17 ko kis sy replace kiya jaye ga ?
> 
> 4: Su 30 k counter k liye hamrey pass kun sa fighter jet hai ?
> 
> 5 : Hq9 ka hamain kya faida jab India Russia sy S400 lay raha hai



Sir,

Please have some respect for this forum---. We have worked very hard to build it to where it is at today---. 

Our language of communication is ENGLISH----. In members club---there are urdu sections.

Speak in english please. thank you.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## batool100

Very Useful Information


----------



## Pindi Boy

Hi
i have found a Teja(s) Vs Thunder comparision its mads by indian fanboys
but i request senior member to please point out mistakes in it(if any)
@Tipu7 @Quwa @Windjammer @Horus @MastanKhan
@Umair Nawaz


----------



## syed_yusuf

That is a bs comparison


----------



## Tipu7

Al-Qassam Brigade said:


> Hi
> i have found a Teja(s) Vs Thunder comparision its mads by indian fanboys
> but i request senior member to please point out mistakes in it(if any)
> @Tipu7 @Quwa @Windjammer @Horus @MastanKhan
> @Umair Nawaz
> 
> View attachment 314780



Jf17 units produced : 75
Tejas units produced : 2

By the way, above parameters is fan work.
Nothing real about it. But I loved the "score" system...... lol

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## WaLeEdK2

Tipu7 said:


> Jf17 units produced : 75
> Tejas units produced : 2
> 
> By the way, above parameters is fan work.
> Nothing real about it. But I loved the "score" system...... lol



Quite entertaining though


----------



## Pindi Boy

Tipu7 said:


> Jf17 units produced : 75
> Tejas units produced : 2
> 
> By the way, above parameters is fan work.
> Nothing real about it. But I loved the "score" system...... lol


can you point the bogus things in it??


----------



## Taygibay

Check here :

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...as-and-china's-xiaolong-fighters-compare.html

Decent attempt with more details, Tay.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Tipu7

Al-Qassam Brigade said:


> can you point the bogus things in it??


First bogus thing is it's paper comparison. Based upon "claims" made on internet.
No one can just point out so sharp figures like that unless and untill officials leak such information.
Bogus things are many, like

Price per unit. Blk2 cost bit more than 20 Million $, not 28 Million$.

G Limit. Tejas & Jf17 has pulled 8+ G turns so far. There is no info available that any of them pulled 9G or -3.5G.

He mentioned many unnecessary parameters just because Tejas is superior in them. Like thanks to American F404 engine, it has better thrust, FAFEC, etc etc .......

RCS values are classified, it's based on assumptions......

OBOGS & Aerodynamic unstable body are not such things to be mentioned in such comparison, but since LCA has them so the biased judge gave them importance ......

He deliberately missed parameters in which Jf17 is better..... he don't know Jf17 has IFR capability, only probe is yet to install. Rest

Like weapon package, combat ability, drill experience, angle of attack, ability to absorb advance sub systems, total units produced etc etc

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Pindi Boy

Tipu7 said:


> First bogus thing is it's paper comparison. Based upon "claims" made on internet.
> No one can just point out so sharp figures like that unless and untill officials leak such information.
> Bogus things are many, like
> 
> Price per unit. Blk2 cost bit more than 20 Million $, not 28 Million$.
> 
> G Limit. Tejas & Jf17 has pulled 8+ G turns so far. There is no info available that any of them pulled 9G or -3.5G.
> 
> He mentioned many unnecessary parameters just because Tejas is superior in them. Like thanks to American F404 engine, it has better thrust, FAFEC, etc etc .......
> 
> RCS values are classified, it's based on assumptions......
> 
> OBOGS & Aerodynamic unstable body are not such things to be mentioned in such comparison, but since LCA has them so the biased judge gave them importance ......
> 
> He deliberately missed parameters in which Jf17 is better.....
> 
> Like weapon package, combat ability, drill experience, angle of attack, ability to absorb advance sub systems, total units produced etc etc


Thanks alot


----------



## khanasifm

Where can one get copy of the books?

http://www.paf.gov.pk/press_release/uploaded/1427530824.pdf
History of Pakistan Air Force:“Entering the new century” is the fourth volume in the sequel of PAF history books which encapsulates the officialaccount of PAF from 1999-2013.

Sentinels in the Sky”summarizes the heroic deeds of PAF’s Ghazis and Shuhada who were awarded with gallantry awards for displayingextraordinary valour during Indo-Pak wars of 1965 and 1971.


----------



## maj-MAN

Aslaam-o-ALIKUM...... do you need 90 percent marks to be selected as a GDP officer in AIRFORCE....though the eligibility criteria is 60%......my marks in first year are 68%.....I want to apply for GDP please help......


----------



## MastanKhan

Pakistan Zindabad said:


> Hi
> i have found a Teja(s) Vs Thunder comparision its mads by indian fanboys
> but i request senior member to please point out mistakes in it(if any)
> @Tipu7 @Quwa @Windjammer @Horus @MastanKhan
> @Umair Nawaz
> 
> View attachment 314780



Hi,

It is a great comparison. The effort is very much appreciated.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is a great comparison. The effort is very much appreciated.


 the expert speaks again


----------



## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> the expert speaks again



You m---n----that was a sarcastic post---.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## mkhan6131

Hi, I've got a Provisional Appointment letter from PAF Airforce for Civilian vacancy of UDC. It asks me to visit Masroor Base Karachi for a medical test. After that I'm gonna be provided with a Formal Appointment letter.
My question is that after the Medical test, what's gonna happen? If they select me, are they gonna send me back home to wait for the "Formal Appointment Letter"? Meanwhile, I'll be setting up my suit case to report for duty. Also, when is this Formal letter gonna arrive after I appear for Medical test in Masroor Base. I will appear on 30th September, 2016.

I'm waiting for someone to reply who has knowledge about this thing.


----------



## VOR

Hi, would like to get PAF or Pakistani's view of PAF history. If you could recommend one book, which one would it be?


----------



## BHarwana

Can someone tell me how many F 6 (F 86 saber) we have in operational condition in Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Taygibay

None to my knowledge, mate!

You're a bit late to the party with that one.
They went over 10 years ago.

Welcome to PDF and have a great day, Tay.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Inception-06

Dear @Bilal Khan 777 , Sir @MastanKhan and all Masters of Air Force, I have very important question:

What Type of air to air missile the J-7 and Mirage carries and what is the deadliest missile (longest range) which this fighter planes can carry and is in our inventory ?


----------



## untitled

Ulla said:


> @Bilal Khan 777 and all Masters of Air Defence, I have very important question:
> 
> What Type of air to air missile the J-7 and Mirage carries and what is the deadliest missile (longest range) which this fighter planes can carry and is in our inventory ?


Why are you calling the F7 the J7?

The Mirages come Matra Super 530 and 550 magic missiles. The Rose mirages are BVR capable but not sure we have a BVR missile for them.

The Pl5 should arm the F7s.

Both are capable to carry the AIM 9

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Inception-06

member.exe said:


> Why are you calling the F7 the J7?
> 
> The Mirages come Matra Super 530 and 550 magic missiles. The Rose mirages are BVR capable but not sure we have a BVR missile for them.
> 
> The Pl5 should arm the F7s.
> 
> Both are capable to carry the AIM 9



OK sorry, maf kardie from now I will name it F-7P and F-7PG !

are capable OK, but is it confirmed that they can carry the AIM-9 ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## untitled

Ulla said:


> OK sorry, maf kardie from now I will name it F-7P and F-7PG !
> 
> are capable OK, but is it confirmed that they can carry the AIM-9 ?


https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-f-7pg-the-little-plane-that-could.424853

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Tank131

Both can carry aim 9. Mirages operate typically with Matra supers and f-7 with pl-5. The mirages have bvr range, but no bvr missile is integrated with them from my understanding. F-7pg should hace limited bvr range (37km) but again no bvr integration.


----------



## Zeeshan Farooqi

hassan1 said:


> how i classification of paf air defence
> how many units in paf air defence
> for example
> radars unit
> baloon baridge unit
> aa guns unit
> ???
> i dont know more
> plz reply me


Very important Questions you have raised.Agreed with you and please share your information about above questions?


----------



## hassan1

VOR said:


> Hi, would like to get PAF or Pakistani's view of PAF history. If you could recommend one book, which one would it be?


INBOX YOUR EMAIL ID


----------



## Arsala.nKhan

Can any one tell me more about the plane which we just got from china in the exhibition at expo recently 2016, November?


----------



## chaklala2

Guys: I just joined this forum so look forward to exchanging thoughts. My father's name is Air Commodore Rtd Mir Mubarizuddin Ahmed. He was a sqn commander during 1965 of No 20 Sqn


----------



## razgriz19

Question: Does the radar or seeker in an air to air missile works the same way as it does for Surface to Air missile seeker? (not talking about infrared but radar guided)
I am reading a book in which they mention skunk works developed an ECM after Garry Powers was shot down in his U2 to counter soviet SAM systems. And it worked fairly well considered they developed it in late 50s/early 60s. 
However they were only able to come up with that system after they gathered enough information through U2 missions over Russian defenses. They first had to learn all the frequencies on which soviet defense systems operated. 
This brings me to two more questions, first is there a chance that we can learn and come up with our own ECM system after playing "war games" with China and their newly acquired S400? (I doubt they would reveal their operating spectrum but hypothetically speaking) 
India is aquiring the same system that's why. 
Second, do we already have a powerful enough ECM on JF-17? I assume the 52 falcons are much better off right now than JF-17


----------



## khanasifm

AAM Life example, western AAM are in 1000s

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MastanKhan

khanasifm said:


> AAM Life example, western AAM are in 1000s
> View attachment 380919



Hi,

Thanks for the post---.

For that very reason---we don't see the BVR's on the aircraft---everytime you hook them up---you reduce their life---and replace the gizmo to cool the seeker head ( a I correct on the last part )?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khanasifm

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the post---.
> 
> For that very reason---we don't see the BVR's on the aircraft---everytime you hook them up---you reduce their life---and replace the gizmo to cool the seeker head ( a I correct on the last part )?




I think some folks have too much time too debate irrelevant topics , just because one have not seen pic so ... forget about it and move on


----------



## MastanKhan

khanasifm said:


> I think some folks have too much time too debate irrelevant topics , just because one have not seen pic so ... forget about it and move on



Hi,

Can you tell me what do you want to say in context of what I stated!!!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khanasifm

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can you tell me what do you want to say in context of what I stated!!!!!




As usually some folks asking question about JF and SD10 and debating why there are no SD 10 on ADA basically still doubtful about whats available on JF. I think mostly perhaps Indians. 

Bottom line SD10, PL5E2 and C803 plus other weapons integrated now one can ask question if all sqns have attained qualification in all roles than yes some new sqn may need 1-2 years to get qualified i.e all pilots qualified on all weapons and roles. Example RAF had more Typhoons and fewer qualified pilots at one time in various roles like a2a, a2g, a2s etc. but thats an on going process and it take time.
When Grifo radar was introduced on Mirage 3 the sqn took 1-2 years to train all pilots on the radar per sqn history and during that time sqn was not fully declared operational 


My 2 cents

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Talon

khanasifm said:


> Where can one get copy of the books?
> 
> http://www.paf.gov.pk/press_release/uploaded/1427530824.pdf
> History of Pakistan Air Force:“Entering the new century” is the fourth volume in the sequel of PAF history books which encapsulates the officialaccount of PAF from 1999-2013.
> 
> Sentinels in the Sky”summarizes the heroic deeds of PAF’s Ghazis and Shuhada who were awarded with gallantry awards for displayingextraordinary valour during Indo-Pak wars of 1965 and 1971.


Staples Book Shop,Garden Town Lahore..or any AFB


----------



## khanasifm

Hodor said:


> Staples Book Shop,Garden Town Lahore..or any AFB




online order? or website for Staples??


----------



## Talon

khanasifm said:


> online order? or website for Staples??


Negative...u'll have to go there or ask someone to go there though its better if u get it from any AFB as it would be cheap there...your from?


----------



## MastanKhan

khanasifm said:


> As usually some folks asking question about JF and SD10 and debating why there are no SD 10 on ADA basically still doubtful about whats available on JF. I think mostly perhaps Indians.
> 
> Bottom line SD10, PL5E2 and C803 plus other weapons integrated now one can ask question if all sqns have attained qualification in all roles than yes some new sqn may need 1-2 years to get qualified i.e all pilots qualified on all weapons and roles. Example RAF had more Typhoons and fewer qualified pilots at one time in various roles like a2a, a2g, a2s etc. but thats an on going process and it take time.
> When Grifo radar was introduced on Mirage 3 the sqn took 1-2 years to train all pilots on the radar per sqn history and during that time sqn was not fully declared operational
> 
> 
> My 2 cents



Hi,

The posters were wanting to know why the aircraft are not flown with BVR missiles on the racks---.

Then you posted the russian missile clip in your post---that explained about the shelf life and operational life of the missile---.

I guess you did not realize that you had already posted the information that posters were looking for and that is what I had pointed out to you so that you could get the credit.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khanasifm

Hodor said:


> Negative...u'll have to go there or ask someone to go there though its better if u get it from any AFB as it would be cheap there...your from?




Afb meaning there is a shop which sells books and other items on the bases?? And some one with access can buy it from there ??


----------



## Talon

khanasifm said:


> Afb meaning there is a shop which sells books and other items on the bases?? And some one with access can buy it from there ??


Yes,souvenir shop or from mess as well...they too have such stuff..and if u are from KHI u can find it from PAF Museum too
By AFB i meant air force base..


----------



## miss mahi

plz tell me abi PAF initial medial and interview


----------



## khanasifm

all-weather stand-off dual-mode precision strike accuracy (laser/dual mode) of less than 4 meters circular error probable.
Precision http://www.janes.com/article/68476/lockheed-martin-announces-paragon-direct-attack-munition


----------



## Talon

miss mahi said:


> plz tell me abi PAF initial medial and interview


1st clear ur e-test..u cant do anything about the medical or much for the interview..


----------



## miss mahi

Hodor said:


> 1st clear ur e-test..u cant do anything about the medical or much for the interview..


i have passed already thats y m asking


----------



## Talon

miss mahi said:


> i have passed already thats y m asking


Hein..?
with e-test i meant jo computer based test hota hy initial me...medical aur interview to following days me hi ho jaty hain..
kindly make urself clear abt what u are trying to ask..
Peace..!!


----------



## miss mahi

Hodor said:


> Hein..?
> with e-test i meant jo computer based test hota hy initial me...medical aur interview to following days me hi ho jaty hain..
> kindly make urself clear abt what u are trying to ask..
> Peace..!!


ab tu mera medical or interview bhi hogya hai initial ... mje issb form mila hai....


----------



## Talon

miss mahi said:


> ab tu mera medical or interview bhi hogya hai initial ... mje issb form mila hai....


Zbrdst...goodluck for issb


----------



## Danish Siddique

hello I need help about my Initial Test, plz guide me about it



Danish Siddique said:


> hello I need help about my Initial Test, plz guide me about it


For GDP Course


----------



## MastanKhan

General information V1 VR V2----what does that mean---enjoy the video


----------



## khanasifm

Did paf acquired south Korean alq200 jamming pod ?? http://www.modp.gov.pk/frmDetails.aspx?id=1&opt=publications


Per modp it did 9 ??

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Falcon26

khanasifm said:


> Did paf acquired south Korean alq200 jamming pod ?? http://www.modp.gov.pk/frmDetails.aspx?id=1&opt=publications
> 
> 
> Per modp it did 9 ??



Seems suspicions pakistan will get the ALQ200 has been in circulation for years. This seems to confirm it. Can @Bilal Khan (Quwa) give details of the importance of this jammer. What sets it apart?

http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/506385.html


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> Seems suspicions pakistan will get the ALQ200 has been in circulation for years. This seems to confirm it. Can @Bilal Khan (Quwa) give details of the importance of this jammer. What sets it apart?
> 
> http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/506385.html


@Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar - are any of you familiar with what happened with the ALQ-200? I thought it was canned from US pressure, but any idea about the 9 apparently delivered? Or is this one of those where the order was booked, but unable to go ahead?


----------



## khanasifm

Unless it's typo and alq131 or alq211/213 from US firm


----------



## HRK

khanasifm said:


> Unless it's typo and alq131 or alq211/213 from US firm



We manage to receive some ALQ-200 from S.Korea @Oscar stated it previously, but this is the official confirmation which you have posted


----------



## khanasifm

These were meant for Jf fleet so I am assuming just 8!will not be enough at min 4-6 per sqn will be required


----------



## HRK

khanasifm said:


> These were meant for Jf fleet so I am assuming just 8!will not be enough at min 4-6 per sqn will be required



it seems further deliveries were cancelled, but I hope we might have learned some lessons form this system for future use ....


----------



## Huzaifa hs

Imran Khan said:


> can any body answer me who give pakistan F5 jets tempary in 1971 war.


China


----------



## Imran Khan

Huzaifa hs said:


> China


thanks sir


----------



## thenexttime

Huzaifa hs said:


> China


 Pak ofc


----------



## khanasifm

If paf did receive some does not make sense why would paf go for Spanish ew system and pods ?


----------



## khanasifm

Huzaifa hs said:


> China



Jordanian plus expect same support in future in form of f16s from ME ???


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

khanasifm said:


> Did paf acquired south Korean alq200 jamming pod ?? http://www.modp.gov.pk/frmDetails.aspx?id=1&opt=publications
> 
> 
> Per modp it did 9 ??



Contract signed and then not honored, as Koreans backed out due to non-permission from Israel.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Reichsmarschall

@The SC @Penguin @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can you identify this SAM??
its stationed in skurdu Pakistan





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1211158039009790


----------



## The SC

Narendra Trump said:


> @The SC @Penguin @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can you identify this SAM??
> its stationed in skurdu Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1211158039009790


Can't see the system, only buildings, and only one picture shows the other is marked with an X.. Sorry

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Reichsmarschall

The SC said:


> Can't see the system, only buildings, and only one picture shows the other is marked with an X.. Sorry


click on the pic its 3D check on left side













__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1211158039009790


----------



## The SC

Narendra Trump said:


> click on the pic its 3D check on left side
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1211158039009790


Sorry, I can only see some small land radar antenna..


----------



## Signalian

is it possible for aircraft to take off with less fuel and heavy weapon loading to compensate for max take off weight?and get refuelled in air to reach full fuel capacity? 
does wing loading come into play?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Taygibay

Signalian said:


> is it possible for aircraft to take off with less fuel and heavy weapon loading to compensate for max take off weight and get refuelled in air to reach full fuel capacity?



Yes, of course! That's why buddy-buddy refueling was made for naval aircrafts.

Good day to you, Tay.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

Signalian said:


> is it possible for aircraft to take off with less fuel and heavy weapon loading to compensate for max take off weight?and get refuelled in air to reach full fuel capacity?
> does wing loading come into play?



Hi,

That is what the U S navy does----for a long / deep mission aircraft takes off with minimum fuel and maximum weapons from an aircraft carrier---and gets refuelled immediately.

I have written about it multiple times on this board for many a years.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Fawad alam

Can any body tell me EW is related to which engineering field?
like Electronics, Electrical or Computer engineering, I am asking details for career building purpose(specially for girls) in maintenance and also operating scopes.
Such as qualification of operators in EW or Awacs planes and engineers for maintenance ect.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Its must be ELINT. Not sure tho. With Army ELINT is linked with C4i


Fawad alam said:


> Can any body tell me EW is related to which engineering field?
> like Electronics, Electrical or Computer engineering, I am asking details for career building purpose(specially for girls) in maintenance and also operating scopes.
> Such as qualification of operators in EW or Awacs planes and engineers for maintenance ect.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Taygibay

Fawad alam said:


> Can any body tell me EW is related to which engineering field?



I'll give you a broad international answer, Fawad.

At the start, complete high school with algebra.
That's a minimum to be an EW specialist anywhere.

The next level is technical : electro-mechanic, electronic,
computer or any maintenance of related equipment.
Cheers to the support crew who save lives quietly.

At around univ/college degree, go for pure sciences if so
inclined but most should aim for an advanced IT cursus :
Network, Administration, Engineer, Programmer, Analyst.

Some Armed Forces require you to have a diploma but
others ( those with the most modern techs ) actually form
you into someone able to hold a post in a civilian setting.

And last but it actually starts earlier than the rest so that 
I should have listed it first : you need to be a clean sheet
good citizen because the entire domain requires a security
clearance.

Have a great day, Tay.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MastanKhan

Fawad alam said:


> Can any body tell me EW is related to which engineering field?
> like Electronics, Electrical or Computer engineering, I am asking details for career building purpose(specially for girls) in maintenance and also operating scopes.
> Such as qualification of operators in EW or Awacs planes and engineers for maintenance ect.



Electronics engr

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## alphaxyz

Can anyone tell me which PAF aircrafts are shore based mainly dedicated to act along with PN for maritime security? Thanks.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Handlers ko report karni hai information????




alphaxyz said:


> Can anyone tell me which PAF aircrafts are shore based mainly dedicated to act along with PN for maritime security? Thanks.


----------



## alphaxyz

haha haan, pdf hi aayenge saare yeh sab kaam ke liye. My question was more on the lines of which aircraft PAF trusts more for these kinda operations.


----------



## nana41

Imran Khan said:


> can any body answer me who give pakistan F5 jets tempary in 1971 war.


It was Jordan.



Imran Khan said:


> can any body answer me who give pakistan F5 jets tempary in 1971 war.


Saudi Arabia and Jordan had F5 fighters,but it was Jordan ,which transferred 12 each to Pakistan.These planes were,however returned to Jordan .


----------



## Windjammer

nana41 said:


> It was Jordan.
> 
> Saudi Arabia and Jordan had F5 fighters,but it was Jordan ,which transferred 12 each to Pakistan.These planes were,however returned to Jordan .


Right and wrong, Jordan transferred the F-104 Star fighters while Saudi Arab gave the F-5s.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## war&peace

Fawad alam said:


> Can any body tell me EW is related to which engineering field?
> like Electronics, Electrical or Computer engineering, I am asking details for career building purpose(specially for girls) in maintenance and also operating scopes.
> Such as qualification of operators in EW or Awacs planes and engineers for maintenance ect.


Predominantly an Electrical / Electronics Engineer but like any system EW has inputs from multiple disciplines. Mechanical, Mechatronics, IT (Software engineers, Networking experts) etc

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## The SC

Fawad alam said:


> Can any body tell me EW is related to which engineering field?
> like Electronics, Electrical or Computer engineering, I am asking details for career building purpose(specially for girls) in maintenance and also operating scopes.
> Such as qualification of operators in EW or Awacs planes and engineers for maintenance ect.


Electrical Engineering, which has many majors where you can concentrate on electronics, power engineering and computer science (Hardware mostly..with some programming)..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is what the U S navy does----for a long / deep mission aircraft takes off with minimum fuel and maximum weapons from an aircraft carrier---and gets refuelled immediately.
> 
> I have written about it multiple times on this board for many a years.


Hot pit refueling and it has been done with PAF F-16 squadrons in the 1980s....

Only difference is that US Navy make a quick jump for the naval aviators and naval flight officers....the aircrews change after they land, and a fresh aircrew climb for the next sortie. No easy day....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Raider 21

Fawad alam said:


> Can any body tell me EW is related to which engineering field?
> like Electronics, Electrical or Computer engineering, I am asking details for career building purpose(specially for girls) in maintenance and also operating scopes.
> Such as qualification of operators in EW or Awacs planes and engineers for maintenance ect.


Systems Engineering with electives in Aerospace electronics.



alphaxyz said:


> Can anyone tell me which PAF aircrafts are shore based mainly dedicated to act along with PN for maritime security? Thanks.


The C172.....it can be quite deadly in the right hands....especially with its STOL capability..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sara gillani

Nice information Shared.


----------



## 420canada

Found out a couple a months back. The mirage was sent to China a long time ago under embargo. All of China delta wing configurations are made from
Research on the mirage. Also the f-16 aswell. This is coming from ex paf engineers. I talked with the pilot who flew the j-11 and j-10 he lives in canada now. What he said was that the j-11 is not practical and the j-10 was very hard to control.


----------



## his5850

420canada said:


> Found out a couple a months back. The mirage was sent to China a long time ago under embargo. All of China delta wing configurations are made from
> Research on the mirage. Also the f-16 aswell. This is coming from ex paf engineers. I talked with the pilot who flew the j-11 and j-10 he lives in canada now. What he said was that the j-11 is not practical and the j-10 was very hard to control.


can u please share the full story


----------



## MastanKhan

420canada said:


> Found out a couple a months back. The mirage was sent to China a long time ago under embargo. All of China delta wing configurations are made from
> Research on the mirage. Also the f-16 aswell. This is coming from ex paf engineers. I talked with the pilot who flew the j-11 and j-10 he lives in canada now. What he said was that the j-11 is not practical and the j-10 was very hard to control.



Hi,

I guess israeli consultants did not help with anything on the Levi design before the Tianamen sq issue---


----------



## 420canada

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I guess israeli consultants did not help with anything on the Levi design before the Tianamen sq issue---




From what I know is that all delta wing air craft in Chinese built are from mirage research. Might have been Israelis aswell.but from what this engineer told me was pretty convincing. But after I took a strong interest in the matter he understood that I understood and he refrained from talking anymore. He works at a local airline in canada. him and one other PAF fighter pilot work together.



his5850 said:


> can u please share the full story


 
The fighter pilot who tested the j-11 and j-10 lives in canada. I know him through another fighter pilot from PAF he is retired and Canot fly due to heart condition. But he introduced me to the pilot which is his buddy. I ask him a series of question but only got two responses and a couple of gestures. 

1. J -11 is not practical for PAF. 
2. J-10 is hard to control 

Oh yea I forgot one more thing mirage upgrades have BVR MISSILES A2A I confirmed it with the PAF engineer 60Km+

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MastanKhan

420canada said:


> From what I know is that all delta wing air craft in Chinese built are from mirage research. Might have been Israelis aswell.but from what this engineer told me was pretty convincing. But after I took a strong interest in the matter he understood that I understood and he refrained from talking anymore. He works at a local airline in canada. him and one other PAF fighter pilot work together.
> 
> 
> 
> The fighter pilot who tested the j-11 and j-10 lives in canada. I know him through another fighter pilot from PAF he is retired and Canot fly due to heart condition. But he introduced me to the pilot which is his buddy. I ask him a series of question but only got two responses and a couple of gestures.
> 
> 1. J -11 is not practical for PAF.
> 2. J-10 is hard to control
> 
> Oh yea I forgot one more thing mirage upgrades have BVR MISSILES A2A I confirmed it with the PAF engineer 60Km+



Hi,

Ask them if you may please---. Why would china seek the mirage design---when they have access to a much modern Lavi design---.

And if the end product looks like the Levi---( the J10) then how is it taken from the mirage---!!!

China may have access to the mirage---but if the end product looks more like Lavi---then obviously it is Lavi.


----------



## syed_yusuf

420canada said:


> From what I know is that all delta wing air craft in Chinese built are from mirage research. Might have been Israelis aswell.but from what this engineer told me was pretty convincing. But after I took a strong interest in the matter he understood that I understood and he refrained from talking anymore. He works at a local airline in canada. him and one other PAF fighter pilot work together.
> 
> 
> 
> The fighter pilot who tested the j-11 and j-10 lives in canada. I know him through another fighter pilot from PAF he is retired and Canot fly due to heart condition. But he introduced me to the pilot which is his buddy. I ask him a series of question but only got two responses and a couple of gestures.
> 
> 1. J -11 is not practical for PAF.
> 2. J-10 is hard to control
> 
> Oh yea I forgot one more thing mirage upgrades have BVR MISSILES A2A I confirmed it with the PAF engineer 60Km+



which missiles, and after 20 years, there must be some evidence. otherwise we are good to settle with just as ROSE 1 is today and that is with AIM9

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 420canada

syed_yusuf said:


> which missiles, and after 20 years, there must be some evidence. otherwise we are good to settle with just as ROSE 1 is today and that is with AIM9


The only problem is that I can’t get anymore info out of the guy. I see him every month because of my work but every time I ask him he starts to laugh and just dismisses the question.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Ask them if you may please---. Why would china seek the mirage design---when they have access to a much modern Lavi design---.
> 
> And if the end product looks like the Levi---( the J10) then how is it taken from the mirage---!!!
> 
> China may have access to the mirage---but if the end product looks more like Lavi---then obviously it is Lavi.



Lavi or not the engineer said that mirage was use for R&D. The Chinese must have used the design in some way shape or forum.


----------



## Maxpane

Very informative


----------



## MastanKhan

420canada said:


> The only problem is that I can’t get anymore info out of the guy. I see him every month because of my work but every time I ask him he starts to laugh and just dismisses the question.
> 
> 
> 
> Lavi or not the engineer said that mirage was use for R&D. The Chinese must have used the design in some way shape or forum.



Hi,

Thank you for your response---indeed the mirage was used for R&D---but in the end it was the Lavi design which got the nod for the J10.


----------



## 420canada

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your response---indeed the mirage was used for R&D---but in the end it was the Lavi design which got the nod for the J10.




I agree with you. But the Chinese have been testing canards delta fighter jets for a while. Take for instance j-9 it’s a “delta” and had prototypes with canards aswell. My theory is that j-10 is aindigenous design. Through year of cooperation with other countries and R&D


----------



## MastanKhan

420canada said:


> I agree with you. But the Chinese have been testing canards delta fighter jets for a while. Take for instance j-9 it’s a “delta” and had prototypes with canards aswell. My theory is that j-10 is aindigenous design. Through year of cooperation with other countries and R&D



Hi,

The secret to successful engineering technology is that when you have an original design available---there is no reason to build an indigenous design---.

That is the sole difference between success and failure---.


----------



## Shabi1

It doesn't make a difference whether Mirage or Lavi. If one wants to argue, on the subject and waste time, it can be debated the delta design was influenced from the cancelled Helwan HA-300. It goes like this.

Helwan HA-300 ----- Mirage -----Lavi (F-16+Mirage)

Its quite openly acknowledged Chinese got good access to Lavi technical information and if they are influenced by Lavi in their designs they automatically get mirage influence.

Infact if you think about it looks like Mig-21/J7/J8 took alot from this design as well.

German aircraft designer Willy Messerschmitt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helwan_HA-300









By the way Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage V (serial# 87-119) on display at China Aviation Museum, Datangshan, Changping District of Beijing, China.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ultima Thule

Shabi1 said:


> It doesn't make a difference whether Mirage or Lavi. If one wants to argue, on the subject and waste time, it can be debated the delta design was influenced from the cancelled Helwan HA-300. It goes like this.
> 
> Helwan HA-300 ----- Mirage -----Lavi (F-16+Mirage)
> 
> Its quite openly acknowledged Chinese got good access to Lavi technical information and if they are influenced by Lavi in their designs they automatically get mirage influence.
> 
> Infact if you think about it looks like Mig-21/J7/J8 took alot from this design as well.
> 
> German aircraft designer Willy Messerschmitt.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helwan_HA-300
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage V (serial# 87-119) on display at China Aviation Museum, Datangshan, Changping District of Beijing, China.


 lavi was more influence F-16 rather than Mirage

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Shabi1

pakistanipower said:


> lavi was more influence F-16 rather than Mirage


true.


----------



## Ultima Thule

420canada said:


> I agree with you. But the Chinese have been testing canards delta fighter jets for a while. Take for instance j-9 it’s a “delta” and had prototypes with canards aswell. My theory is that j-10 is aindigenous design. Through year of cooperation with other countries and R&D


China was a partner in Lavi project @420canada

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Readerdefence

420canada said:


> The only problem is that I can’t get anymore info out of the guy. I see him every month because of my work but every time I ask him he starts to laugh and just dismisses the question.
> 
> 
> 
> Lavi or not the engineer said that mirage was use for R&D. The Chinese must have used the design in some way shape or forum.


Hi my friend I’m not negating you knowledge from one of the pilot who flew j11 & j10 can you please let us know when he did that coz now j11 and j10 all are fly by wire thing one of the best
As they are assembling j10c and j11b so the pilot must have handled these may be at earlier stages of the j series assembled 
Hope you can get some more good info on these jets from some senior members
Thank you
Ps MastanKhan or any other more literate member if possible to put up some more info about j10 or j11 will be a added bonus

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## 420canada

Readerdefence said:


> Hi my friend I’m not negating you knowledge from one of the pilot who flew j11 & j10 can you please let us know when he did that coz now j11 and j10 all are fly by wire thing one of the best
> As they are assembling j10c and j11b so the pilot must have handled these may be at earlier stages of the j series assembled
> Hope you can get some more good info on these jets from some senior members
> Thank you
> Ps MastanKhan or any other more literate member if possible to put up some more info about j10 or j11 will be a added bonus


 I will follow up on the fighter pilot. And update you guys.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armchair

Hi I have a question about PAF. Well, a few questions if you don't mind. 

1. Did some of the Libyan Mirages get put into service?

2. PAF is using HMS with MAA-1A, and PL-9s. I understand this is not official but openly known. What other missile do they have which is unofficially known?

3. The R-darter was integrated with the Mirage and the F-7s. Were the missiles manufactured locally with SA help?

4. What were the local companies that took over the ROSE upgrades from the French? How successful were their subsystems?

5. What happened to the stealth Mirage III mods that supposedly penetrated indian airspace without detection? Was there ever any attempt to get LO capabilities for the JF-17 from this development?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Chimgathar

Guys when PAF received 18 F-16s in mid 2000s, I heard they are maintained only by US technicians stationed at PAF base. Pakistani technicians are not trained to maintain them. Also these air crafts cannot be used in war without prior US permission. Does anyone has info on this?


----------



## GriffinsRule

Chimgathar said:


> Guys when PAF received 18 F-16s in mid 2000s, I heard they are maintained only by US technicians stationed at PAF base. Pakistani technicians are not trained to maintain them. Also these air crafts cannot be used in war without prior US permission. Does anyone has info on this?


Yes, you heard wrong on all accounts.



Shabi1 said:


> By the way Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage V (serial# 87-119) on display at China Aviation Museum, Datangshan, Changping District of Beijing, China.




Just a gift to an aviation museum by Pakistan. The serial number is actually 67-119, which of course is made up, as only Mirage III EA #67-001 through 118 were ordered and operated by PAF. Also, this airframe is either an ex-French or ex-Libyan Mirage V variant.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## denel

pakistanipower said:


> China was a partner in Lavi project @420canada


Lavi was a project which my country was a partner in. When this fell apart due to appeasement to US by the respective Isreali Govt; it shattered many of my colleagues' dreams. It would have rivaled if not beaten F-16 hands down.
This later made its way over to China where it was resurrected in the form of J10. J10 is not indigenous to China; it has Lavi DNA. 

To clarify - China inherited the designs and works much later. It was not a partner in the actual design. It was between IAI/Altas with bulk of the work being done at IAI. Project Cheetah was an interim gap measure until Lavi was to become available in quantity.



Shabi1 said:


> It doesn't make a difference whether Mirage or Lavi. If one wants to argue, on the subject and waste time, it can be debated the delta design was influenced from the cancelled Helwan HA-300. It goes like this.
> 
> Helwan HA-300 ----- Mirage -----Lavi (F-16+Mirage)
> 
> Its quite openly acknowledged Chinese got good access to Lavi technical information and if they are influenced by Lavi in their designs they automatically get mirage influence.
> 
> Infact if you think about it looks like Mig-21/J7/J8 took alot from this design as well.
> 
> German aircraft designer Willy Messerschmitt.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helwan_HA-300
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage V (serial# 87-119) on display at China Aviation Museum, Datangshan, Changping District of Beijing, China.


Helwan is more toward Gnat fighter league.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Incog_nito

Is PAF still looking for these stuffs?

AJT (Other than JF-17B)
New IJT in a small number (Other than K-8)
New Basic Trainer in a small number (Other than Super Mushak)
Support Spares for T-37s
UAVs from EU & other countries
New & Used Helicopters


----------



## Cat Shannon

China bought the LAVI design with hard cash. Israel was smart to sell it.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## blinder

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes, you heard wrong on all accounts.
> Just a gift to an aviation museum by Pakistan. The serial number is actually 67-119, which of course is made up, as only Mirage III EA #67-001 through 118 were ordered and operated by PAF. Also, this airframe is either an ex-French or ex-Libyan Mirage V variant.



Indeed, it is a Mirage 5DE, a former Libyan Air Force aircraft, serial number 108, built September 1971.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## GriffinsRule

blinder said:


> Indeed, it is a Mirage 5DE, a former Libyan Air Force aircraft, serial number 108, built September 1971.



Thanks for the confirmation and the S.No to boot!!


----------



## Armchair

What happened to the MAA-1B? Things went awefully quiet about it. My guess is some where bought but never announced. Probably armed more Mirages.

Supposedly comes with an HMS


----------



## khanasifm

Armchair said:


> What happened to the MAA-1B? Things went awefully quiet about it. My guess is some where bought but never announced. Probably armed more Mirages.
> 
> Supposedly comes with an HMS



With aim-9l/m ( all paf aircraft with radar carry) there was no serious interest I think it was just an options available at the time back in early 2000s but never pursued due to various reasons like $ I think [emoji848]

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armchair

khanasifm said:


> With aim-9l/m ( all paf aircraft with radar carry) there was no serious interest I think it was just an options available at the time back in early 2000s but never pursued due to various reasons like $ I think [emoji848]



thanks for the info!


----------



## Tank131

Armchair said:


> What happened to the MAA-1B? Things went awefully quiet about it. My guess is some where bought but never announced. Probably armed more Mirages.
> 
> Supposedly comes with an HMS


Frankly I think MAA-1 was acquired to integrate onto JF-17 to show potential buyers other options are available beyond Chinese ones so that you can taylor it to ypur requirements and that Pakistan was capable of doing said integration for you. Although why anyone would want non-chinese weapons to be used with chinese equipment when the chinese weapons work well and are effective, but it shows options.


----------



## 420canada

Ok guys i got the interviews ready with the pilots. I need a interviewer or a host. Anyone in missisauga canada wanna do Q & A? I will set it up at a neutral location. I told him about PDF. He said he has over a dozen pilots that would love to go on record.


----------



## HRK

420canada said:


> Ok guys i got the interviews ready with the pilots. I need a interviewer or a host. Anyone in missisauga canada wanna do Q & A? I will set it up at a neutral location. I told him about PDF. He said he has over a dozen pilots that would love to go on record.


@Horus @WebMaster .... might help in this regards

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Signalian

@HRK @django @Inception-06 @Basel @Arsalan @Gryphon @Tipu7 @blueazure @Indus Pakistan @Armchair @tps77 @The Eagle @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and others.

Your thoughts on a STOVL aircraft induction in PAF or PN, like a Harrier or F-35.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## GriffinsRule

First, there is no Harrier to be had. That leaves only option for a STOVL option being the F-35, which is already a non-starter. Second, there is no need for extra complicated aircraft in either PAF or PN, not to mention it doesn't fit their doctrine nor operations.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Signalian said:


> Your thoughts on a STOVL aircraft induction in PAF or PN, like a Harrier or F-35.


My thoughts for now and the next decade -

PN - no more purchases at all. Place a cap and *downsize* it please. Forgot abot STOVL.
PAF - further purchases strictly on cost/benefit analysis. Yes to ATAK choppers to enhance COIN ability.
PA - cap on any further investment in armour, artillery. Place cap. Downsize conventional forces and shift to internal gendarmie duties.

Savings go on internal scurity, education and health for next decade as matter of war footing. Declare a war against poverty, illiteracy, disease.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> @HRK @django @Inception-06 @Basel @Arsalan @Gryphon @Tipu7 @blueazure @Indus Pakistan @Armchair @tps77 @The Eagle @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and others.
> 
> Your thoughts on a STOVL aircraft induction in PAF or PN, like a Harrier or F-35.


I wouldn't do STOVL. Rather, optimize Project Azm for EX/STOL (extreme/short take-off and landing) so that it can operate from temporary air fields and aircraft carriers (albeit with some additional modifications).

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ziaulislam

Indus Pakistan said:


> My thoughts for now and the next decade -
> 
> PN - no more purchases at all. Place a cap and *downsize* it please. Forgot abot STOVL.
> PAF - further purchases strictly on cost/benefit analysis. Yes to ATAK choppers to enhance COIN ability.
> PA - cap on any further investment in armour, artillery. Place cap. Downsize conventional forces and shift to internal gendarmie duties.
> 
> Savings go on internal scurity, education and health for next decade as matter of war footing. Declare a war against poverty, illiteracy, disease.


PAF is on short footing...rest i kinda agree...economy(which includes health and edcuatiob that normally is 30% of your economy in Pakistan its not even 5%) needs more attention


----------



## Basel

Signalian said:


> @HRK @django @Inception-06 @Basel @Arsalan @Gryphon @Tipu7 @blueazure @Indus Pakistan @Armchair @tps77 @The Eagle @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and others.
> 
> Your thoughts on a STOVL aircraft induction in PAF or PN, like a Harrier or F-35.



Not required currently, because we need to fill the gap first, it will be handy to have for small ACCs, if Pakistan decided to extend its foot print in Arabian sea and Indian Ocean.



GriffinsRule said:


> First, there is no Harrier to be had. That leaves only option for a STOVL option being the F-35, which is already a non-starter. Second, there is no need for extra complicated aircraft in either PAF or PN, not to mention it doesn't fit their doctrine nor operations.



If one have money then Yak can built one STOVL as they also have tech and expertise.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tps43

Signalian said:


> @HRK @django @Inception-06 @Basel @Arsalan @Gryphon @Tipu7 @blueazure @Indus Pakistan @Armchair @tps77 @The Eagle @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and others.
> 
> Your thoughts on a STOVL aircraft induction in PAF or PN, like a Harrier or F-35.


The only window we have at the moment is project azam in which we can mold our plans. Basically we are not in position of inducting STOVL ac but I would rather prefer a variat of azam which can do extremely short takeoffs so that the mobility issues are resolved.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## django

Signalian said:


> @HRK @django @Inception-06 @Basel @Arsalan @Gryphon @Tipu7 @blueazure @Indus Pakistan @Armchair @tps77 @The Eagle @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and others.
> 
> Your thoughts on a STOVL aircraft induction in PAF or PN, like a Harrier or F-35.


TBH we need to move forward with Project Azm, we are in no position to procure F-35s either economically or politically, heck the Yanks would not even sell us block 60 F-16s even if we had the funds upfront.Kudos bro


----------



## HRK

Signalian said:


> @HRK @django @Inception-06 @Basel @Arsalan @Gryphon @Tipu7 @blueazure @Indus Pakistan @Armchair @tps77 @The Eagle @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and others.
> 
> Your thoughts on a STOVL aircraft induction in PAF or PN, like a Harrier or F-35.


I believe rather to move in the direction of more complicated system which actually restrict the aircraft performance examples Harrier and F-35 STOVL variant, its better for us to keep following the current approach of landing and takeoff from highways and motorways with fighters of short turn around time.

We should spread and expand number of these sort of specially selected strips of highways/motorway.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> @HRK @django @Inception-06 @Basel @Arsalan @Gryphon @Tipu7 @blueazure @Indus Pakistan @Armchair @tps77 @The Eagle @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and others.
> 
> Your thoughts on a STOVL aircraft induction in PAF or PN, like a Harrier or F-35.



Some members have suggested Project Azm for STOVL, but are the Chinese, who will get most design work out of it, capable of building one? I don't think so.

Since you have mentioned PN, which doesn't own AC, what role do you envisage for a STOVL aircraft?

I would rather have JH-7B's with PAF, providing ground attack and maritime strike capabilities the service lacks. And more motorways optimized for take-off/landing as HRK mentioned.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Arsalan

Signalian said:


> @HRK @django @Inception-06 @Basel @Arsalan @Gryphon @Tipu7 @blueazure @Indus Pakistan @Armchair @tps77 @The Eagle @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and others.
> 
> Your thoughts on a STOVL aircraft induction in PAF or PN, like a Harrier or F-35.


Not very excited about it. Currently, or even for next 15-20 years, i do not see any need of ship borne attack planes. As long as we are concerned with defending territorial waters this wont be required. Plus i have some idea of the economic situation so will say a straight NO to it. There are some much more pressing matters, military and non-military that need to be addressed on priority.



HRK said:


> I believe rather to move in the direction of more complicated system which actually restrict the aircraft performance examples Harrier and F-35 STOVL variant, its better for us to keep following the current approach of landing and takeoff from highways and motorways with fighters of short turn around time.
> 
> We should spread and expand number of these sort of specially selected strips of highways/motorway.


Indeed! Keep it simple yet lethal!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## The Eagle

Signalian said:


> @HRK @django @Inception-06 @Basel @Arsalan @Gryphon @Tipu7 @blueazure @Indus Pakistan @Armchair @tps77 @The Eagle @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and others.
> 
> Your thoughts on a STOVL aircraft induction in PAF or PN, like a Harrier or F-35.



To be honest and being precised; I would say straight No for STOVL due to maintenance, cost & sometimes like sitting duck (not moving but taking time for vertical T.O) but can amend it for STOL. Just imagine the war scenario where infrastructure is targeted through different types of attack and then we need a bird in the air.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Incog_nito

Like any other Air Force, PAF is also quite committed to its operational redness 24/7 and with the increasing demand in operations across all 4 corners of the borders, PAF needs to put more time and efforts in operations rather than taking on task for R&D, Manufacturing, & Maintaining it's equipment.

In all that scenario, isn't it better if PAF privatizes PAC (all facility) to some local trusted partners from GIDS side but keeps full control on everything, especially over R&D. 

And I consider same should be followed for Navy & Army.


----------



## alimobin memon

Is Pakistan Air Force or PAC doing any researches on radar technology ? Since engineering institutes do tell alternates to doppler radars or ESA radars ? 

F22 alike jets are not easy with these techs to lock or track on. Pakistan should look towards Electro Optical Radars or radars that are based on light emitting. Another approach is Russian alike radar photonic based. In the modern world Pakistan can use the tech already present and encourage students of universities not just from NUST but also from other institutes to do project on such kind of things.


----------



## M16174

Assalamoalikum.
Any one know about Lahore air base ?
I mean, Lahore airbase is not that operational airbase but according to Wikipedia, ADA is present here for immediate reply to any attack.
Which squadron or Fighter aircrafts are present at the air base , Any one knows about that ?

Also one can clearly find 4 fighter aircraft HAS present left to the Runway 36 (South East of Airbase)


----------



## Tps43

M16174 said:


> Assalamoalikum.
> Any one know about Lahore air base ?
> I mean, Lahore airbase is not that operational airbase but according to Wikipedia, ADA is present here for immediate reply to any attack.
> Which squadron or Fighter aircrafts are present at the air base , Any one knows about that ?
> 
> Also one can clearly find 4 fighter aircraft HAS present left to the Runway 36 (South East of Airbase)


Lahore Is an *operational* base but not a flying base


----------



## M16174

Tps43 said:


> Lahore Is an *operational* base but not a flying base



Yes, it isn't a flying base, but Wikipedia says, it contains ADA.
Also, when i visited the base on 6sept, i could see a building with radar mounted on it , which was operating.
When i saw it on satellite maps, i found it ADA building next to the Aircraft PENS

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAF_Base_Lahore

You can read the last Paragraph (Present use).
it says regarding full year air defence coverage (operational wing)


----------



## Tps43

Every air strip in Pakistan which is jet cap has ADA huts .


M16174 said:


> i could see a building with radar mounted on it


ATC tower , Due to Vip and Log movements.


M16174 said:


> it says regarding full year air defence coverage


Intersting thing is Base doesnt operationally control MCC wing but Its falls under Censec jurisdiction


M16174 said:


> Yes, it isn't a flying base, but Wikipedia says, it contains ADA.


----------



## Cuirassier

Forward Operating Base (FOB). Just like the Qadri FOB in Skardu.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

@M16174
Please make it a point to first look at the existing threads before opening new ones. The Air force question thread has existed since 2008 and is also a sticky so if you just take a little time to see the list of threads from the top it is right there.
Thanks

Why are you using a proxy if you are in Pakistan and went to the airbase?
PDF is not a restricted site in Pakistan and proxy IPs are not needed


----------



## M16174

Oscar said:


> @M16174
> Please make it a point to first look at the existing threads before opening new ones. The Air force question thread has existed since 2008 and is also a sticky so if you just take a little time to see the list of threads from the top it is right there.
> Thanks
> 
> Why are you using a proxy if you are in Pakistan and went to the airbase?
> PDF is not a restricted site in Pakistan and proxy IPs are not needed



Sorry for the thread mistake, I couldn't find this thread before, but there was no activity for long time,so i couldn't find this before.
But Oscar, please don't implement such false things to me of using proxy.
I've never used any proxy ,in fact for any thing for last few months. I'm using mobile data over mobilink and Opera mini browser, nothing else.


----------



## SQ8

M16174 said:


> Sorry for the thread mistake, I couldn't find this thread before, but there was no activity for long time,so i couldn't find this before.
> But Oscar, please don't implement such false things to me of using proxy.
> I've never used any proxy ,in fact for any thing for last few months. I'm using mobile data over mobilink and Opera mini browser, nothing else.


Something was triggering our IP checks.


----------



## Incog_nito

Why there's so much activity of PAF (fighter jets) in the sea view area of Karachi?

I can hear jets are roaring too much!


----------



## Trailer23

Who knows, maybe a new airbase in KHI (that we still don't know of) or some exercises taking place.

Oh and for those who can spare a few mins..., check out my new Video Edit on:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-air-force-vids-edited-on-adobe-premiere.585383/


----------



## Imran Khan

IM Ozair said:


> Why there's so much activity of PAF (fighter jets) in the sea view area of Karachi?
> 
> I can hear jets are roaring too much!


routine missions over sea .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Incog_nito

I think there's some rehearsal on Karachi Sea View area!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## salman-1

There's activity over Lahore too. I just heard very clear just after our jumma prayers. Over DHA


----------



## Trailer23

*Q.* If the PAF faces issues over spares for our aging F-16 - how difficult would it be to Reverse Engineer some of the Mechanical Parts by PAC?

I know that it might not be possible for certain exterior components and/or electrical based on complexity - but just wondering.

Case in point: Iranians have been flying those F-14 Tomcats for well over 04 Decades now. Its not as if they can get parts from another nation under the table - no one has ever operated those jets.


----------



## Shabi1

IM Ozair said:


> Why there's so much activity of PAF (fighter jets) in the sea view area of Karachi?
> 
> I can hear jets are roaring too much!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bossman

M16174 said:


> Assalamoalikum !
> Can any body explain about the extent of reality regarding PAF Sargodha AFB underground Hangars ?
> Says Wikipedia regarding underground facility.


Facilities yes and on all bases. Hangers no.


----------



## Trailer23

Flying to Karachi in the morning...
Gonna be staying with my dad at Sea View and return on the 29th itself (evening).

Just might get a glimpse of the Air Show if its earlier in the day .


----------



## Signalian

The Sandman said:


> @Nilgiri @Signalian (salam if you're still here) Can you guys tell me the difference between an AN/ASQ-228 ATFLIR pod *&* AN/AAQ-28 Litening targeting pod? Which is better and why? In lay man terms plz



They both have same functions apart from a couple of minor differences, some of those relating to politics. I will not list down the functions supposing that you are familiar with targeting pods.

Lets starts with political reason first, ATFLIR was designed for the F-18's initially but US Navy/USMC started equipping F-18 A+/C/D and Harrier AV-8B with Litening pods, even when ATFLIR pods had been ordered already. When ATFLIR pods arrived, they installed them on F-18 E/F SH. Now the debate is to convert all F-18's (basically all F-18 C/D's) to ATFLIR for commonality of system. There are of course two lobbies; one says that Litening is inducted on all F-18's so should be installed now on all F-18 E/F's, while other says that ATFLIR was originally intended for all F-18's so strip F-18 A+/C/D's from Litening and install ATFLIR instead just like F-18 E/F. 

Technically, Litening doesn't take up a hard point while ATFLIR takes up an AMRAAM hard point under fuselage for F-18's.There are claims that ATFLIR's performance (resolution) is better than Litening Pod, but it could be debatable since i reckon that F-18 E/F's sensors, data bus and radar are better than F-18 C/D's so maybe these components could affect the performance of the targeting pod also. 

Cost wise, Litening is cheaper, ATFLIR is expensive. Litening is used by USAF, USN, USMC and lots of other air forces, while ATFLIR has fewer customers.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## The Sandman

Signalian said:


> They both have same functions apart from a couple of minor differences, some of those relating to politics. I will not list down the functions supposing that you are familiar with targeting pods.
> 
> Lets starts with political reason first, ATFLIR was designed for the F-18's initially but US Navy/USMC started equipping F-18 A+/C/D and Harrier AV-8B with Litening pods, even when ATFLIR pods had been ordered already. When ATFLIR pods arrived, they installed them on F-18 E/F SH. Now the debate is to convert all F-18's (basically all F-18 C/D's) to ATFLIR for commonality of system. There are of course two lobbies; one says that Litening is inducted on all F-18's so should be installed now on all F-18 E/F's, while other says that ATFLIR was originally intended for all F-18's so strip F-18 A+/C/D's from Litening and install ATFLIR instead just like F-18 E/F.
> 
> Technically, Litening doesn't take up a hard point while ATFLIR takes up an AMRAAM hard point under fuselage for F-18's.There are claims that ATFLIR's performance (resolution) is better than Litening Pod, but it could be debatable since i reckon that F-18 E/F's sensors, data bus and radar are better than F-18 C/D's so maybe these components could affect the performance of the targeting pod also.
> 
> Cost wise, Litening is cheaper, ATFLIR is expensive. Litening is used by USAF, USN, USMC and lots of other air forces, while ATFLIR has fewer customers.


Thanks for replies and info guys appreciate it! 

@Nilgiri

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> Cost wise, Litening is cheaper, ATFLIR is expensive.



Yeah this is the big issue that is being debated right now actually. From the grapevine I have some access to, lot of USMC higher ups are prioritizing acquisition speed....versus the commonality debate pushed by USMC-USN mentality types.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Gryphon

@CriticalThought

Reply to comment: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-to-retire-the-f-7-fleet.598665/page-7#post-11128007

PAF F-16s lack ALCM capability, and there is no other option except SOM since the US will almost certainly refuse to sell cruise missiles to Pakistan. SOM is already certified for Turkish F-16s.

For JF-17, many weapons with stand-off ranges are available. The CM-400AKG (which PAF says is integrated to JF-17 but not in operational service) can be used in air-to-ground as well as anti-ship role. It is not a sea-skimming cruise missile, the missile's flight altitude exceeds the limits of most short-to-medium range SAM's and in the terminal phase, it dives towards the target at supersonic-hypersonic speeds, which reduces the probability of intercept.

Since No. 2 sqn is dedicated to the maritime strike role, C-802AK & CM-400AKG equipped JF-17s will act as a conventional deterrent against the enemy (until a platform like Su-35/J-16 is acquired). PAF F-16s don't have this role, which is evident from the Harpoon inventory, which is all held by PN.



@Tps43 
Plz continue here.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> PAF F-16s lack ALCM capability, and there is no other option except SOM since the US will almost certainly refuse to sell cruise missiles to Pakistan. SOM is already certified for Turkish F-16s.



F-16 was inducted as Air Defence fighter in 1983 and was tasked only with Air to Air missions until the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan at the end of 1980's and that's when the Thompson-CSF ALTIS II laser designation pod was installed for Air to Ground missions. It is said that LANTRIN pod was not available in market, however it was in USAF service in 1987. The same year PAF started installing Thompson-CSF ALTIS II laser designation pod, which is French. I am assuming that Thompson-CSF ALTIS II laser designation pod was installed on PAF F-16's with US permission. This means permission from US for SOM would be required also for use on F-16's ?

Secondly, although F-16's have taken part in extensive A2G Ops on western border, still PAF prioritizes them as front line Air Defence fighter. This could pertain that onus of future Air to Ground Ops could fall mostly on JF-17, apart from the obvious use of ROSE Mirages. Another reason for extensive use of F-16's Air strikes on western border could not only be because of their capabilities but also that JF-17 had just started to get inducted into PAF at that time. The saga of ALCM is limited to Mirages only. A new aircraft or a smaller version of Raád on JF-17 could enhance use of ALCM in PAF. An option that could be explored is to convert a transport plane (Y-8/Y-12/CN235 etc) as a test bed ALCM carrier in case Mirage fleet has to be grounded.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Tps43

Gryphon said:


> @CriticalThought
> 
> Reply to comment: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-to-retire-the-f-7-fleet.598665/page-7#post-11128007
> 
> PAF F-16s lack ALCM capability, and there is no other option except SOM since the US will almost certainly refuse to sell cruise missiles to Pakistan. SOM is already certified for Turkish F-16s.
> 
> For JF-17, many weapons with stand-off ranges are available. The CM-400AKG (which PAF says is integrated to JF-17 but not in operational service) can be used in air-to-ground as well as anti-ship role. It is not a sea-skimming cruise missile, the missile's flight altitude exceeds the limits of most short-to-medium range SAM's and in the terminal phase, it dives towards the target at supersonic-hypersonic speeds, which reduces the probability of intercept.
> 
> Since No. 2 sqn is dedicated to the maritime strike role, C-802AK & CM-400AKG equipped JF-17s will act as a conventional deterrent against the enemy (until a platform like Su-35/J-16 is acquired). PAF F-16s don't have this role, which is evident from the Harpoon inventory, which is all held by PN.
> 
> 
> 
> @Tps43
> Plz continue here.


I just saw ur post here now sorry for being late.
Usa would never allow pakistan to use F 16's in maritime role . But other then that I would certainly say F 16's are true multiroler AC for Paf and Paf used them in both a2g and a2a roles in wartimes and they were highly successful .
Rose mirages on the other hand are quite formidable ones esp one's from 25th and 27th sqn as they will carry N.weapon when and were need arises plus they have complete night strike capibility . Your question regarding Mirages horus , my answer is maybe paf looking to replace non rose mirages with them but I dont see more then 2 sqn's being raised from them and paf is looking to buy 50 mirages in price of 0.5 F 16 , they can stick on for 10 years and maybe paf thinks by that time economic conditions would improve they can buy any other platform .
Although whatever I heard was mirages would be replaced by west origin AC and in case of war we will go for J 10's otherwise west origin AC.
Jf 17's a2g role is tested in north west region and they are infact great and Block 3 will have goodies with it which will make it a more formidable weapon system
F-7 PG have sucessfully intercepted and locked on eagle once and man what an interception it was , if I am not wrong AC was from 20 sqn . PG will serve us till the final AC induction of JFT block 3

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ziaulislam

Tps43 said:


> I just saw ur post here just now sorry for being late.
> Usa would never allow pakistan to use F 16's in maritime role . But other I would certainly say F 16's are true multiroler AC for Paf and Paf used them in both a2g and a2a roles in wartimes and they were highly successful .
> Rose mirages on the other hand are quite formidable ones esp one's from 25th and 27th sqn as they will carry N.weapon when were need arises plus they have complete night strike capibility . Your question regarding Mirages horus , my answer is maybe paf looking to replace non rose mirages with just but I dont see more then 2 sqn's being rasied from them and paf is looking to buy 50 mirages in price of 0.5 F 16 , they can stick on for 10 years and maybe paf thiinks by that time economic conditions would improve so they can buy anyother platform .
> Although whatever I heard was mirages would be replaced by west origin AC and in case of war we will go for J 10's otherwise west origin AC.
> Jf 17's a2g role is tested on north west region and they are infact great and Block 3 will have goodies with it which will make it a formidable weapon system
> F-7 PG have sucessfully intercepted and locked on eagle once and man what an interception it was , ifI am not wrong AC was from 20 sqn . PG will serve us till the final AC induction of JFT block 3


which western plate0oarm will let you carry nuclear weapons apart from rafale..i am eager to see this


----------



## Tps43

ziaulislam said:


> which western plate0oarm will let you carry nuclear weapons apart from rafale..i am eager to see this


Too early too say but don't forget Paf's personal may times on media stated that mirages ideal replacement is Rafale , but for next 10 years I don't see any new western platform in paf mainly because of our economic situation.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mentee

Tps43 said:


> Too early too say but don't forget Paf's personal may times on media stated that mirages ideal replacement is Rafale , but for next 10 years I don't see any new western platform in paf mainly because of our economic situation.


The pessimistic billi in your Avatar looks more promising than paf's procurement plans

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Tps43

Mentee said:


> The pessimistic billi in your Avatar looks more promising than paf's procurement plans


but do remember I am @Tps43 part and parcel of Paf , and billi is love & life of mine

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Nilgiri

Mentee said:


> The pessimistic billi in your Avatar looks more promising than paf's procurement plans

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Tps43

Nilgiri said:


> View attachment 535416


How sweet of u , u got collection of my avatars

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mentee

Nilgiri said:


> View attachment 535416


At least he's not into giving endless and dubious timelines 



Nilgiri said:


> View attachment 535416


See that? even the pills didn't get him

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Nilgiri

Tps43 said:


> How sweet of u , u got collection of my avatars



They're the best running series here lol

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tps43

Nilgiri said:


> They're the best running series here lol


Add another one

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tps43

Nilgiri said:


> When you get in trouble with mods for smacking "innocent" little mousies here (not that you do, but if you do).....best part is mods here are even red too lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK I will stop derailing this thread now lol


take it to whatever we can continue there lol

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ziaulislam

Tps43 said:


> Too early too say but don't forget Paf's personal may times on media stated that mirages ideal replacement is Rafale , but for next 10 years I don't see any new western platform in paf mainly because of our economic situation.


buying rafale will not be possible..typhoon, f16 wont let integration..so i dont see any western option..best next thing will be to get stealth AC from china


----------



## Tps43

ziaulislam said:


> buying rafale will not be possible..typhoon, f16 wont let integration..so i dont see any western option..best next thing will be to get stealth AC from china


Thats another thing and it's already in pipeline , neither u nor I have seen future so we share what we think or know.
I shared mine knowledge I can get wrong but down the road eventually u will see a western platform which can be 5th or euro 6th gen or who know's we see 4.5 gen top of the line fighter


----------



## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> F-16 was inducted as Air Defence fighter in 1983 and was tasked only with Air to Air missions until the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan at the end of 1980's and that's when the Thompson-CSF ALTIS II laser designation pod was installed for Air to Ground missions. It is said that LANTRIN pod was not available in market, however it was in USAF service in 1987. The same year PAF started installing Thompson-CSF ALTIS II laser designation pod, which is French. I am assuming that Thompson-CSF ALTIS II laser designation pod was installed on PAF F-16's with US permission. This means permission from US for SOM would be required also for use on F-16's ?



US approval needed, along with OEM support in integration. SOM seems to be the only option considering that any request for sale of AGM-158 JASSM to Pakistan will almost certainly be declined.



> Secondly, although F-16's have taken part in extensive A2G Ops on western border, still PAF prioritizes them as front line Air Defence fighter. This could pertain that onus of future Air to Ground Ops could fall mostly on JF-17, apart from the obvious use of ROSE Mirages. Another reason for extensive use of F-16's Air strikes on western border could not only be because of their capabilities but also that JF-17 had just started to get inducted into PAF at that time. The saga of ALCM is limited to Mirages only. A new aircraft or a smaller version of Raád on JF-17 could enhance use of ALCM in PAF.



Agreed. F-16 role is primarily air defence since PAF doesn't possess/use HARM, Harpoon, air-to-ground cruise missiles and Durandal with them, AFAIK.

Raad (and later Raad-II) were developed as strategic weapons, i.e., primarily meant to carry a nuclear payload. A smaller version, if developed, will likely come in the ~700-800kg weight class with a smaller warhead (~250kg) and a smaller range, potentially compromising the second strike capability in aerial domain.

Now, if this is what is required, why not acquire the CM-802AKG with local assembly/production rights and label it indigenous?

PN has already done it with C-602 (Zarb), that is operated by the NSFC.

@Tps43

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> US approval needed, along with OEM support in integration. SOM seems to be the only option considering that any request for sale of AGM-158 JASSM to Pakistan will almost certainly be declined.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. F-16 role is primarily air defence since PAF doesn't possess/use HARM, Harpoon, air-to-ground cruise missiles and Durandal with them, AFAIK.
> 
> Raad (and later Raad-II) were developed as strategic weapons, i.e., primarily meant to carry a nuclear payload. A smaller version, if developed, will likely come in the ~700-800kg weight class with a smaller warhead (~250kg) and a smaller range, potentially compromising the second strike capability in aerial domain.
> 
> Now, if this is what is required, why not acquire the CM-802AKG with local assembly/production rights and label it indigenous?
> 
> PN has already done it with C-602 (Zarb), that is operated by the NSFC.
> 
> @Tps43



For Naval air support from fighter aircrafts, the first question which pops in mind is, Are 30 aircrafts an effective proponent for PN? 12 of them being Mirage-V and others are JF-17's from 2nd Sqd.

Then comes the missile. Mirage-V can carry one exocet, while JF-17 can carry 2 x C-802. Its not just the anti-ship missile that Pakistan needs. There is no equivalent of AGM-65 for ground support in PAF service. JF-17 lacks not just cruise missile but an Air to ground missile for supporting troops on the ground.

Since Mirages are being mentioned, what if IAF asks UAE, EAF and QAF etc to sell their remaining Mirgae 2000's to it or if the tender for sale at cheap price is floated and IAF raises hand to buy, what will be PAF's stance?


----------



## MastanKhan

Signalian said:


> Since Mirages are being mentioned, what if IAF asks UAE, EAF and QAF etc to sell their remaining Mirgae 2000's to it or if the tender for sale at cheap price is floated and IAF raises hand to buy, what will be PAF's stance?



Hi,

It will be---It is the man behind the machine---we are not afraid to die---. Angels will come and help us---man with a long white beard and wearing a green dress will catch the bombs and will grab the missiles---.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Tps43

Gryphon said:


> US approval needed, along with OEM support in integration. SOM seems to be the only option considering that any request for sale of AGM-158 JASSM to Pakistan will almost certainly be declined.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. F-16 role is primarily air defence since PAF doesn't possess/use HARM, Harpoon, air-to-ground cruise missiles and Durandal with them, AFAIK.
> 
> Raad (and later Raad-II) were developed as strategic weapons, i.e., primarily meant to carry a nuclear payload. A smaller version, if developed, will likely come in the ~700-800kg weight class with a smaller warhead (~250kg) and a smaller range, potentially compromising the second strike capability in aerial domain.
> 
> Now, if this is what is required, why not acquire the CM-802AKG with local assembly/production rights and label it indigenous?
> 
> PN has already done it with C-602 (Zarb), that is operated by the NSFC.
> 
> @Tps43


Of course why not brilliant idea


----------



## khanasifm

Trailer23 said:


> *Q.* If the PAF faces issues over spares for our aging F-16 - how difficult would it be to Reverse Engineer some of the Mechanical Parts by PAC?
> 
> I know that it might not be possible for certain exterior components and/or electrical based on complexity - but just wondering.
> 
> Case in point: Iranians have been flying those F-14 Tomcats for well over 04 Decades now. Its not as if they can get parts from another nation under the table - no one has ever operated those jets.



Iran had 77-80 f-14 so it’s current fleet is few so most of the fleet was canabalized to keep it flying


----------



## hassan1



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Signalian

Found something interesting

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MastanKhan

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 535833



Hi,

It is the POWER PROJECTION that matters---. Numbers are just for show---. What is inside of the aircraft---that is what is important---.

2 sqdrn's of F22's can take out 20 sqdrn's of enemy aircraft without a hiccup---.

So---please don't be flattered by the enemy's aircraft sqdrn's going down---.

Their power projection---force multiplication---has gone up multiple times by inducting newer aircraft and retiring older gen aircraft---.

So---Pakistanis lads should not fall into that FEEL GOOD TRAP---.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shaded

i heard that only 10 - 12 % of gdp cadets successfully earn their wings . why is it that the rest of them fail ? do they lack study preparation ? or it that they are just not good enough ? i apologize for posting this thread again since no one was replying


----------



## Nilgiri

Signalian said:


> Found something interesting
> View attachment 540775



Visual Basic 6? Bruh, just learn java.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Signalian

Nilgiri said:


> Visual Basic 6? Bruh, just learn java.


*L I N K - 1 6* 

I m not a programmer

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shabi1

The requirements are very strict, and only a handful can be chosen.


----------



## shaded

Shabi1 said:


> The requirements are very strict, and only a handful can be chosen.


 I understand the requirements are very strict . im asking what the requirements really are .


----------



## Imran Khan

shaded said:


> I understand the requirements are very strict . im asking what the requirements really are .


if we know it then everyone will pass dear and got wings


----------



## shaded

Imran Khan said:


> if we know it then everyone will pass dear and got wings


so completely classified? how secretive .


----------



## Talon

shaded said:


> i heard that only 10 - 12 % of gdp cadets successfully earn their wings . why is it that the rest of them fail ? do they lack study preparation ? or it that they are just not good enough ? i apologize for posting this thread again since no one was replying


You heard wrong..only 10-12% fail to earn their wings or maybe even less than this percentage.



Imran Khan said:


> if we know it then everyone will pass dear and got wings


Bossman course is not secret... There's PFT then BFT and atlast AJFT.All of this involves simple flying and anyone who can withstand heights and Ragra can pass it.Real deal starts from FCU.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shaded

Posts: 112
Joined: 28 May 2005, 20:28





02 Nov 2005, 19:23

College of Flying Training (CFT) 
Responsibility for transforming new cadets into potential officer material and imparting basic flying skills is entrusted to the College of Flying Training (CFT). Based since 1947 at Risalpur, the CFT controls the Flying Training Wing (FTW) which was established at Risalpur on 19 July 1955. The FTW itself is divided into two separate and distinct training organizations, namely the Primary Flying Training Wing (PFTW) operating the PAC MFI-17 'Mushshak' and the MFI-395 'Super Mushshak' primary trainers and the Basic Flying Training Wing (BFTW) operating the PAC/NAMC K-8 ('Karakorum-8') intermediate and advanced jet trainer (AJT). 

One common element for all trainees is the constant pressure to excel. Only 10-15% of the original candidates succeed in earning their wings. In other words, of the original entry of 100 cadets only 10-15 survive to become pilots in the PAF. Only the best become PAF pilots, and only the best of the best become PAF fighter pilots. 

( i actually saw this information on this website .i was suprised myself to see the numbers )
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4225


----------



## Talon

shaded said:


> Posts: 112
> Joined: 28 May 2005, 20:28
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 02 Nov 2005, 19:23
> 
> College of Flying Training (CFT)
> Responsibility for transforming new cadets into potential officer material and imparting basic flying skills is entrusted to the College of Flying Training (CFT). Based since 1947 at Risalpur, the CFT controls the Flying Training Wing (FTW) which was established at Risalpur on 19 July 1955. The FTW itself is divided into two separate and distinct training organizations, namely the Primary Flying Training Wing (PFTW) operating the PAC MFI-17 'Mushshak' and the MFI-395 'Super Mushshak' primary trainers and the Basic Flying Training Wing (BFTW) operating the PAC/NAMC K-8 ('Karakorum-8') intermediate and advanced jet trainer (AJT).
> 
> One common element for all trainees is the constant pressure to excel. Only 10-15% of the original candidates succeed in earning their wings. In other words, of the original entry of 100 cadets only 10-15 survive to become pilots in the PAF. Only the best become PAF pilots, and only the best of the best become PAF fighter pilots.
> 
> ( i actually saw this information on this website .i was suprised myself to see the numbers )
> http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4225


All information is correct except for the passing ratio.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shaded

ofcourse . there is alot of misinformation out there misguiding people .that's why i wanted to confirm this .thank you sir ..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## denel

Nilgiri said:


> Visual Basic 6? Bruh, just learn java.


forget java. assembler/c++/python is the way.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Raider 21

shaded said:


> i heard that only 10 - 12 % of gdp cadets successfully earn their wings . why is it that the rest of them fail ? do they lack study preparation ? or it that they are just not good enough ? i apologize for posting this thread again since no one was replying


It is not for everybody. The percentage rate of passing is set high due to the rules having been written in blood. But I can assure you on this......it is quite the experience.....and definitely a lot of fun packed with horrors occasionally.


----------



## Nilgiri

denel said:


> forget java. assembler/c++/python is the way.



Yes I went that way and am thankful for it. Makes my job that much easier (I have to adapt and develop lot of simulation based code essentially in C/C++/MATlab and sometimes taking/adapting stuff even from FORTRAN...so I need good understanding of code architecture/processes).

But if you are out for simple application surface one time use/dabbling (and plan to commercialise etc without getting too deep into the whole philosophy/understanding)....I always suggest java mostly...just because of how apps/interfacing is done these days. It just depends how much you plan to use stuff in your work/hobby. Similar to how i suggest few youtube channels to people (if they show some interest on something) over the core sources that the content was created on. They will naturally segue into deeper stuff if they see need to.


----------



## shaded

Knuckles said:


> It is not for everybody. The percentage rate of passing is set high due to the rules having been written in blood. But I can assure you on this......it is quite the experience.....and definitely a lot of fun packed with horrors occasionally.


but it is attainable right ? through hardwork or is it just complete natural talent ?


----------



## denel

Nilgiri said:


> Yes I went that way and am thankful for it. Makes my job that much easier (I have to adapt and develop lot of simulation based code essentially in C/C++/MATlab and sometimes taking/adapting stuff even from FORTRAN...so I need good understanding of code architecture/processes).
> 
> But if you are out for simple application surface one time use/dabbling (and plan to commercialise etc without getting too deep into the whole philosophy/understanding)....I always suggest java mostly...just because of how apps/interfacing is done these days. It just depends how much you plan to use stuff in your work/hobby. Similar to how i suggest few youtube channels to people (if they show some interest on something) over the core sources that the content was created on. They will naturally segue into deeper stuff if they see need to.


indeed. never a one shoe fit all. most of my work is using assembler/c++. Had no time for the issues with java as it cannot be certified for many applications.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Raider 21

shaded said:


> but it is attainable right ? through hardwork or is it just complete natural talent ?


Both. And a good pool of instruction.


----------



## Ali0625

One question trolling in my mind for months;

Why PAF wastes alot of money in buying training weapons (i mean dummy) weapons.
You can see at all display or airshow pictures that all the weapons pilled up for show , they all have one thing written on them : "INERT or DUMMY"
Even you see the sidewinders and PL5 on the f16 and Jf-17 they are dummy too

Even Dummy bomb or missile costs thousands of dollars.
You may correct me if I'm wrong


----------



## GriffinsRule

Ali0625 said:


> One question trolling in my mind for months;
> 
> Why PAF wastes alot of money in buying training weapons (i mean dummy) weapons.
> You can see at all display or airshow pictures that all the weapons pilled up for show , they all have one thing written on them : "INERT or DUMMY"
> Even you see the sidewinders and PL5 on the f16 and Jf-17 they are dummy too
> 
> Even Dummy bomb or missile costs thousands of dollars.
> You may correct me if I'm wrong



CATMs or Captive Air Training Missiles are used for training. They have the same weight, center of gravity, and dimensions of the actual missiles, we well as the seeker heads and electronics. 

Missiles and other hitech weapons with electronics are very sophisticated as well as delicate objects with very short shelf life, and once they have been taken out of their containers and put on aircraft. After a certain number of "flight hours", depending on the missiles, they are more prone to malfunction and deemed unsafe, requiring them to be sent back for overhaul/refurbishment. After a few of those cycles, they could be put out of service. 

So when you see dummy/inert missiles and weapons on aircraft, it means the airforce is saving money instead of wasting it.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## shaded

i read a book about the history of airforce and the author ( in one section ) explained the percentage of gdp cadet induction . about 80 - 90 % of the inductions come from the students of two military airforce colleges ( sargodha and lower topa ) .the rest percentages comes from already pre-inspired childrens of pilot officers who follow on their footsteps . the ones from civilian background mostly get rejected . is SAFARISH and the two military colleges the only way to get inducted into the airforce?


----------



## Fieldmarshal

shaded said:


> i read a book about the history of airforce and the author ( in one section ) explained the percentage of gdp cadet induction . about 80 - 90 % of the inductions come from the students of two military airforce colleges ( sargodha and lower topa ) .the rest percentages comes from already pre-inspired childrens of pilot officers who follow on their footsteps . the ones from civilian background mostly get rejected . is SAFARISH and the two military colleges the only way to get inducted into the airforce?


B.S book and ur assumption based on hearsay

Safarish get u institutions like Punjab police n not institutions like PAF, where less than 20% of cadets manage to pass out from Rasalpur.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shaded

Fieldmarshal said:


> B.S book and ur assumption based on hearsay
> 
> Safarish get u institutions like Punjab police n not institutions like PAF, where less than 20% of cadets manage to pass out from Rasalpur.


i agree . i did not wanted to believe this thats why i had to confirm it . my own friends belonging to airforce families quoted such things as SIFARISH based entrances . the author of the book '' the story of pakistan airforce '' wrote this induction rate at the end part of the book


----------



## Fieldmarshal

shaded said:


> i agree . i did not wanted to believe this thats why i had to confirm it . my own friends belonging to airforce families quoted such things as SIFARISH based entrances . the author of the book '' the story of pakistan airforce '' wrote this induction rate at the end part of the book



If the son of the airchief or the son of D.G ISI cant make the cut and r rejected by ISSB and the son of a havaldar goes on to become the COAS PA than u know the system does work.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shaded

Fieldmarshal said:


> If the son of the airchief or the son of D.G ISI cant make the cut and r rejected by ISSB and the son of a havaldar goes on to become the COAS PA than u know the system does work.


sir perfectly said . cant argue with that


----------



## shaded

is it possible to become and f -16 pilot one and a half year after induction ?


----------



## Reichmarshal

Only if u buy an f16


----------



## Fatima Khan0007

Muradk said:


> Sorry your info about the F-5 is wrong we got 3 in total and total air time flown by PAF pilots were 5 min hardly. They did not have the cartridges under the ejection seat. so we did not fy them and gave them back. with thanks.


Is air show on 23 march happening in Islamabad this year? when and where?


----------



## sneakerspark

Fatima Khan0007 said:


> Is air show on 23 march happening in Islamabad this year? when and where?


Yes, it is. It will also happen on 19th and 21st as well. Venue is parade ground.


----------



## Meliodas

Any idea why there isn't any squadron 13 in PAF. I'm interested to know if there is a story to it. 

If paf has a squadron 13 pls confirm.


----------



## Umar Nazir

I knew its highly in PAF favor but any body knew exact numbers???????


----------



## ZedZeeshan

Umar Nazir said:


> I knew its highly in PAF favor but any body knew exact numbers???????


Jitney Indians ki cheekhey nikal rahey hain.. consider it as a score...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Sine Nomine

http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/september/wars.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Umar Nazir

ZedZeeshan said:


> Jitney Indians ki cheekhey nikal rahey hain.. consider it as a score...


as per Wikipedia
in 1965 war as per neutral claims we shoot down over 75 jets of IAF against 20 losses
where as in 1971 as per neutral claims we still able to shoot down 45 against 42


----------



## ZedZeeshan

Umar Nazir said:


> as per Wikipedia
> in 1965 war as per neutral claims we shoot down over 75 jets of IAF against 20 losses
> where as in 1971 as per neutral claims we still able to shoot down 45 against 42


wikipedia pa jiska dil karey woh haath phair lea...


----------



## maverick1977

ZedZeeshan said:


> wikipedia pa jiska dil karey woh haath phair lea...



2:1 ratio is there for sure

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Areesh

maverick1977 said:


> 2:1 ratio is there for sure



It should be more than 2 imo

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Khurram2349

According to John Fricker's book on 1965 Air War total IAF losses were 73 as compared to PAF's 19 . The Indian losses of 73 includes destroyed in aerial combat as well as on ground during PAFs air raids on Indian bases .

According to autobiography of Chuck Yeager who was serving as USAF observer in Pakistan during 1971 war , Indian losses were more then 100 . According to another aviation book Fighter Aces Pakistan destroyed over 100 Indian planes both in air and on ground while lost total 32 of their own during 1971 war .

After these two wars , India lost two planes during 1999 Kargil skirmish but both were hit by SAMs carried by Pakistan soldiers . 

And now on Feb 27 so far Pakistan claims officially downing two more Indian planes while unofficial reports are that further then these 2 IAF lost one more plane plus a chopper but PAF do not claim this as yet !

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Umar Nazir

ZedZeeshan said:


> wikipedia pa jiska dil karey woh haath phair lea...


three diffrent kinds of claim given on wekipedia, Indian Pakistani and Neutral and i quoted the neutral one. even few Indians generals accepted their 1965 war highest no of losses



Areesh said:


> It should be more than 2 imo


its 5:1 in 1965 war . Our jets destroyed IAF completely


----------



## zulu

And in 1971 14 of those 32 destroyed after the runways were totally destroyed so they cant fly anymore cant move anywhere u will find many books about it 


Khurram2349 said:


> According to John Fricker's book on 1965 Air War total IAF losses were 73 as compared to PAF's 19 . The Indian losses of 73 includes destroyed in aerial combat as well as on ground during PAFs air raids on Indian bases .
> 
> According to autobiography of Chuck Yeager who was serving as USAF observer in Pakistan during 1971 war , Indian losses were more then 100 . According to another aviation book Fighter Aces Pakistan destroyed over 100 Indian planes both in air and on ground while lost total 32 of their own during 1971 war .
> 
> After these two wars , India lost two planes during 1999 Kargil skirmish but both were hit by SAMs carried by Pakistan soldiers .
> 
> And now on Feb 27 so far Pakistan claims officially downing two more Indian planes while unofficial reports are that further then these 2 IAF lost one more plane plus a chopper but PAF do not claim this as yet !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## monitor

Umar Nazir said:


> I knew its highly in PAF favor but any body knew exact numbers???????



This questions have no conclusive answer. There will be multiple results from Pakistani source Indian source and international source . It's upto you whom to believe or take the average number of those figure .


----------



## Umar Nazir

monitor said:


> This questions have no conclusive answer. There will be multiple results from Pakistani source Indian source and international source . It's upto you whom to believe or take the average number of those figure .


But even in neutral claims PAF at way ahead


----------



## Jugger

IAF did not give air superiority to PAF in any of the wars. Otherwise the outcome would not be so favourable to India.


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

Jugger said:


> IAF did not give air superiority to PAF in any of the wars. Otherwise the outcome would not be so favourable to India.





ANY evidence for your claims? With the amount of lies which are proven indians always spout, it is EXTREMELY difficult to believe ANYTHING you people say.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Umar Nazir

Jugger said:


> IAF did not give air superiority to PAF in any of the wars. Otherwise the outcome would not be so favourable to India.


favorable to india ????? When and where ????????????????


----------



## Flash_Ninja

Jugger said:


> IAF did not give air superiority to PAF in any of the wars. Otherwise the outcome would not be so favourable to India.



Thats incorrect and also irrelevant to the topic

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## mastaan

Even by Indian accounts, we lost more than PAF.. How much will remain the open question.. But here is an article from 2015 on this

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...look-at-the-1965-war/articleshow/48628306.cms

This is another account with a lot of references, but i suspect some might find it tough to digest as he is not very kind on MM Alam's claims.. But even he admits bigger losses of IAF over PAF in 1965.

https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger...ion-how-the-outgunned-iaf-beat-the-paf_396591

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

mastaan said:


> Even by Indian accounts, we lost more than PAF.. How much will remain the open question.. But here is an article from 2015 on this
> 
> https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...look-at-the-1965-war/articleshow/48628306.cms
> 
> This is another account with a lot of references, but i suspect some might find it tough to digest as he is not very kind on MM Alam's claims.. But even he admits bigger losses of IAF over PAF in 1965.
> 
> https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger...ion-how-the-outgunned-iaf-beat-the-paf_396591








The above sources are indian. Therefore they are all invalid at best but more likely to be lies. 10 years from now, indians will be claiming they destroyed and completely defeated the PAF on 27th of February 2019.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## mastaan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> The above sources are indian. Therefore they are all invalid at best but more likely to be lies. 10 years from now, indians will be claiming they destroyed and completely defeated the PAF on 27th of February 2019.


The point I was trying to make was - even by Indian accounts, the losses for IAF were higher. Rest, whatever flies your kite.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

mastaan said:


> The point I was trying to make was - even by Indian accounts, the losses for IAF were higher. Rest, whatever flies your kite.






Does claiming indians invented UFOs 7,000 years ago float your boat:

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ancient-i...nets-radical-claim-raises-controversy-1481897

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mastaan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Does claiming indians invented UFOs 7,000 years ago float your boat:
> 
> https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ancient-i...nets-radical-claim-raises-controversy-1481897


And you made this point because? How is this related to the topic? I was trying to agree to a point which was arguing against my flag and even that offends you?
Let's stick to topic may be instead of being so sensitive?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## zulu

U get your answer now but its always boots on ground final outcome depends but Airforce pivotal more so in new age wars starting from gulf war 1991


Umar Nazir said:


> But even in neutral claims PAF at way ahead



Good to see you back  seems u only online on weekends.Start any post regarding current indian elections or any analyses?dont forget to tag me


mastaan said:


> And you made this point because? How is this related to the topic? I was trying to agree to a point which was arguing against my flag and even that offends you?
> Let's stick to topic may be instead of being so sensitive?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Signalian

No F-16 was delivered to Iran, but its reported that tooling and maintenance equipment was delivered, which was later sold to Pakistan. Any confirmation on this ?


----------



## SQ8

Signalian said:


> No F-16 was delivered to Iran, but its reported that tooling and maintenance equipment was delivered, which was later sold to Pakistan. Any confirmation on this ?


Yes. We took delivery of this equipment after 81.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Trailer23

This is purely a hypothetical question...

*[If] there is an Israeli Pilot in custody of the Pakistan Armed Forces..., does the 'Geneva Convention' apply on his return?*

I ask because we (Pakistan) do not recognize them as a State and which automatically means we do not have Diplomatic Ties with them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Signalian

What distance is the self-homing distance for Aim-120?
1.distance from host a/c
2.distance from target a/c


----------



## Pakistan Space Agency

Does anyone know which of these JF-17 Thunder serials are correct?

17-249 / 18-249
17-250 / 18-250


----------



## loanranger

Trailer23 said:


> This is purely a hypothetical question...
> 
> *[If] there is an Israeli Pilot in custody of the Pakistan Armed Forces..., does the 'Geneva Convention' apply on his return?*
> 
> I ask because we (Pakistan) do not recognize them as a State and which automatically means we do not have Diplomatic Ties with them.


Should not apply to such a state like Isreal.They want him back ask publicly otherwise we dont have him
Ofcourse this would be the case unless we have been threatened by the US to be bombed to the stoneage if we fail to return him.


----------



## airomerix

Signalian said:


> What distance is the self-homing distance for Aim-120?
> 1.distance from host a/c
> 2.distance from target a/c



This is classified information.


----------



## MystryMan

Whats difference b/w PL-9C and PL-5EII?


----------



## Ultima Thule

MystryMan said:


> Whats difference b/w PL-9C and PL-5EII?


PL-5EII is based on Soviet R-13 which was Copied AIM-9 Sidewinder Captured by China from Taiwan incident i n 60, whereas PL-9C is based on Israeli Python-3, PL-9C is basically improvement of PLAAF PL-8 @MystryMan

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MystryMan

pakistanipower said:


> PL-5EII is based on Soviet R-13 which was Copied AIM-9 Sidewinder Captured by China from Taiwan incident i n 60, whereas PL-9C is based on Israeli Python-3, PL-9C is basically improvement of PLAAF PL-8 @MystryMan


Why PAF uses/prefers PL-5E over PL-9?


----------



## denel

MystryMan said:


> Why PAF uses/prefers PL-5E over PL-9?


Simple. it is lighter.


----------



## Ultima Thule

MystryMan said:


> Why PAF uses/prefers PL-5E over PL-9?


We used both PL-9C on F-7PG and PL-5E on JF-17 @MystryMan


----------



## loanranger

Does AIM 120 -C and other variants have a self destruct feature. Incase it misses its target or is evaded succesfully?


----------



## Deltadart

Has PAF done any further upgrades to the capabilities of the mirages beyond the Rose upgrades?


----------



## Ultima Thule

Deltadart said:


> Has PAF done any further upgrades to the capabilities of the mirages beyond the Rose upgrades?


No @Deltadart


----------



## jupiter2007

Iran was a able to copy America fighter jet. Does Pakistan has the ability to build Mirage V frame after getting experience in building Jf-17?


----------



## ZedZeeshan

jupiter2007 said:


> Iran was a able to copy America fighter jet. Does Pakistan has the ability to build Mirage V frame after getting experience in building Jf-17?


No need..!!


----------



## jupiter2007

ZedZeeshan said:


> No need..!!



I am only asking about the ability.


----------



## Shabi1

jupiter2007 said:


> I am only asking about the ability.



PAC Kamra has the ability to make airframes if you are asking about capability. But building Mirages is something it doesnt need to do and a waste of resources.

As for Iran it mostly rebuild airframes and even though it claims building new jets its ability to mass produce them has been questionable.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shaded

where are these mechanicals jamming devices like chaffs , decoys and corner deflectors located on an aircraft


----------



## airomerix

shaded said:


> where are these mechanicals jamming devices like chaffs , decoys and corner deflectors located on an aircraft


Beneath the aircraft. 

Google flare/chaff dispensers. You will get a fair idea of their location.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shaded

airomerix said:


> Beneath the aircraft.
> 
> Google flare/chaff dispensers. You will get a fair idea of their location.


thank you sir


----------



## shaded

Can anyone explain the FALCON UP modification upgrade ? will be appreciated


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> Beneath the aircraft.
> 
> Google flare/chaff dispensers. You will get a fair idea of their location.


Which anti ship missile JF 17 uses? CM 400AKG or C 802 AK?


----------



## GriffinsRule

shaded said:


> Can anyone explain the FALCON UP modification upgrade ? will be appreciated


Just some structural strengthening of the airframe to ensure if reached its 8000 flying hours life as designed for originally.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shaded

Hodor said:


> You heard wrong..only 10-12% fail to earn their wings or maybe even less than this percentage.
> 
> 
> Bossman course is not secret... There's PFT then BFT and atlast AJFT.All of this involves simple flying and anyone who can withstand heights and Ragra can pass it.Real deal starts from FCU.



sir i am extremely sorry to ask this question again . but i posed this question to someone within the airforce . he passionately agreed to this percentage and even said " it maybe even less than that " . i am confused at this stage . can you confirm that what is the real statement ?


----------



## MastanKhan

shaded said:


> i heard that only 10 - 12 % of gdp cadets successfully earn their wings . why is it that the rest of them fail ? do they lack study preparation ? or it that they are just not good enough ? i apologize for posting this thread again since no one was replying



Hi,

Why are you worried about 10-12 %---. The military puts you thru the GRINDER---. That grinder is a unique machine---one of a kind---and is not predictable---.

The only predictability is you and your character---what are you build of---your inner resource---your energy---your ability & that is what comes out the other side when you go thru the machine---.

This Grinder machine has a pecking order---just like fruit on a conveyer belt---with the scanner checking it and grading it---1-2-3-4 and sorting them out seperately---.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## messiach

Depends on whos operating the grinder.
Top men, top job.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Why are you worried about 10-12 %---. The military puts you thru the GRINDER---. That grinder is a unique machine---one of a kind---and is not predictable---.
> 
> The only predictability is you and your character---what are you build of---your inner resource---your energy---your ability & that is what comes out the other side when you go thru the machine---.
> 
> This Grinder machine has a pecking order---just like fruit on a conveyer belt---with the scanner checking it and grading it---1-2-3-4 and sorting them out seperately---.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Keysersoze

shaded said:


> that is really helpful sir , i highly appreciate this . in other words i have to just focus on my abilities and the output that comes out because of it . this puts me to ease
> 
> on another note can you tell me more about the grinder ? will be thankful ...


Its a metaphorical grinder....It means they physically and mentally grind you down to sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Army research

shaded said:


> that is really helpful sir , i highly appreciate this . in other words i have to just focus on my abilities and the output that comes out because of it . this puts me to ease
> 
> on another note can you tell me more about the grinder ? will be thankful ...


I'm not well versed about risalpur, but here's some notes from pma 
From the first day in academy you at told that only a select few will pass out ( sometimes people have been withdrawn on their passing out date ) 
They constantly remind you of this and try to break you, they place you in a impossible situation yet they also keep the shortcut/cheat less guarded on purpose , if you cheat your out , however if you try your best and still fail, but you were honest and gave it all you had , you will earn your wings

Reactions: Like Like:
 2


----------



## MastanKhan

shaded said:


> that is really helpful sir , i highly appreciate this . in other words i have to just focus on my abilities and the output that comes out because of it . this puts me to ease
> 
> on another note can you tell me more about the grinder ? will be thankful ...



Hi,

There is a saying in english---" control the controllable "---. Controllable is you---what you do---it is your physical ability---your mental capability---yes I can attitude---.

Physical fitness will take you a long ways---. Running longer distances is most important---. How do you run long distance---? You need to get your legs stronger---you need to get your back stronger---your need to get your upper body stronger---. But you don't need to have a weightlifter body---. Pak military prefers lean bodies---.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## B.K.N

MastanKhan said:


> But you don't need to have a weightlifter body---. Pak military prefers lean bodies---.



Pakistan millitry prefers nothing 
Pakistani soldiers are just like common citizens a lot of soldiers I have seen are skinny fat even those in their 20s

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Trailer23

Does anyone have the (new) Insignia/Logo of the Mushaf Air Base...?
@Windjammer @Hodor @airomerix


----------



## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is a saying in english---" control the controllable "---. Controllable is you---what you do---it is your physical ability---your mental capability---yes I can attitude---.
> 
> Physical fitness will take you a long ways---. Running longer distances is most important---. How do you run long distance---? You need to get your legs stronger---you need to get your back stronger---your need to get your upper body stronger---. But you don't need to have a weightlifter body---. Pak military prefers lean bodies---.


Pak military does not have any preference. They are lean by young age and become belly fighters with time. Like any other military organization in the region.

Very few amongst them will comprehend to the fact that weight lifting helps with G tolerance and builds better endurance for longer careers in flying fighters. But what about the daily biryanis....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> Does anyone have the (new) Insignia/Logo of the Mushaf Air Base...?
> @Windjammer @Hodor @airomerix

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Hassan_Aziz_261

Hodor said:


> View attachment 573315








Found this at a thread somewhere.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Khafee

Hodor said:


> View attachment 573315


Great guy RIP.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Talon

Hassan_Aziz_261 said:


> View attachment 583149
> 
> 
> Found this at a thread somewhere.


Out dated


----------



## Talon

Khafee said:


> Great guy RIP.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Khafee

Hodor said:


> View attachment 583228


The guy had a solid reputation. Gem of a guy. True Gentleman, RIP.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Trailer23

Which PAF Base are the AGGRESSORS based at?

Is it Mushaf...?


----------



## GriffinsRule

Trailer23 said:


> Which PAF Base are the AGGRESSORS based at?
> 
> Is it Mushaf...?


Yep, along with the other ACE squadrons

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Trailer23

Any clue as to which Squadron will be at the *2019 Dubai Air Show* later this month?

@Windjammer @Horus @airomerix @Khafee @Tps43

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

For people who want to know---a while ago---a question was asked---how much do passenger aircraft wings flex.

For a 777 it is about 9 feet upwards---in this test---it was tested to 26 feet---. For a longer wing longer flex---. Here is a video

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## shaded

when is the next gdp course registration opening due ?


----------



## Incog_nito

As PAF looking up for diversification in its fleet and wanted to replace their Mirages with a potent aircraft, so is PAF looking for some options?

In order to replace 200+ Mirages operational in its fleet require replacement and there are several options available like:
1. 40 EF-2000s (with KSA support & also JAS-39 is not available / IAF already have Rafael)
2. 40-60 SU-35 from Russia.
3. 40-60 SU-57 from Russia.

These 120-160 Aircraft will be enough to replace 200+ Mirages in PAF fleet easily. As 170-200+ JF-17s are replacing 175+ F-7 models and already replaced 50+ A-5Cs from PAF.

As project AZM will be replacing old F-16s first.

And there's at least 10 years for the 1st AZM jet to join PAF.


----------



## jupiter2007

IM Ozair said:


> As PAF looking up for diversification in its fleet and wanted to replace their Mirages with a potent aircraft, so is PAF looking for some options?
> 
> In order to replace 200+ Mirages operational in its fleet require replacement and there are several options available like:
> 1. 40 EF-2000s (with KSA support & also JAS-39 is not available / IAF already have Rafael)
> 2. 40-60 SU-35 from Russia.
> 3. 40-60 SU-57 from Russia.
> 
> These 120-160 Aircraft will be enough to replace 200+ Mirages in PAF fleet easily. As 170-200+ JF-17s are replacing 175+ F-7 models and already replaced 50+ A-5Cs from PAF.
> 
> As project AZM will be replacing old F-16s first.
> 
> And there's at least 10 years for the 1st AZM jet to join PAF.



Pakistan wanted SU-35 from Russia but i don’t think We have enough $$$ Cash right now.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TsAr

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan wanted SU-35 from Russia but i don’t think We have enough $$$ Cash right now.


There are other issues that matter more then cash, like integration of weapons and radar.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## StormBreaker

IM Ozair said:


> As PAF looking up for diversification in its fleet and wanted to replace their Mirages with a potent aircraft, so is PAF looking for some options?
> 
> In order to replace 200+ Mirages operational in its fleet require replacement and there are several options available like:
> 1. 40 EF-2000s (with KSA support & also JAS-39 is not available / IAF already have Rafael)
> 2. 40-60 SU-35 from Russia.
> 3. 40-60 SU-57 from Russia.
> 
> These 120-160 Aircraft will be enough to replace 200+ Mirages in PAF fleet easily. As 170-200+ JF-17s are replacing 175+ F-7 models and already replaced 50+ A-5Cs from PAF.
> 
> As project AZM will be replacing old F-16s first.
> 
> And there's at least 10 years for the 1st AZM jet to join PAF.


What are you smoking ???

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

@Gryphon sir I saw u mentioning about Air Launched Brahmos and then after CM 400AKG on Thunders. Brahmos is a terrian hugging cruise missile whereas CM 400 AKG has ballistic missile trajectory. So CM 400AKG will easily gets intercepted by Air defence right as compared to Brahmos?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Gryphon

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> @Gryphon sir I saw u mentioning about Air Launched Brahmos and then after CM 400AKG on Thunders. Brahmos is a terrian hugging cruise missile whereas CM 400 AKG has ballistic missile trajectory. So CM 400AKG will easily gets intercepted by Air defence right as compared to Brahmos?



After launch, the CM-400AKG climbs to altitudes unachievable for most SAMs, and in the terminal stage dives on its target at Mach 5+, so unless there are BMDs deployed, interception is unlikely.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## StormBreaker

Gryphon said:


> After launch, the CM-400AKG climbs to altitudes unachievable for most SAMs, and in the terminal stage dives on its target at Mach 5+, so unless there are BMDs deployed, interception is unlikely.


Can the CIWS on Vikramaditoa counter CM-400 ? Most likely NEVER

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Gryphon

StormBreaker said:


> Can the CIWS on Vikramaditoa counter CM-400 ? Most likely NEVER



The CM-400AKG isn't classified as an anti-ship missile at all - both by the user (PAF) and the seller (AVIC).

It is an air-to-ground missile as the G in its name indicates. IIRC, the missile employs no active seeker either.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ghost 125

IM Ozair said:


> As PAF looking up for diversification in its fleet and wanted to replace their Mirages with a potent aircraft, so is PAF looking for some options?
> 
> In order to replace 200+ Mirages operational in its fleet require replacement and there are several options available like:
> 1. 40 EF-2000s (with KSA support & also JAS-39 is not available / IAF already have Rafael)
> 2. 40-60 SU-35 from Russia.
> 3. 40-60 SU-57 from Russia.
> 
> These 120-160 Aircraft will be enough to replace 200+ Mirages in PAF fleet easily. As 170-200+ JF-17s are replacing 175+ F-7 models and already replaced 50+ A-5Cs from PAF.
> 
> As project AZM will be replacing old F-16s first.
> 
> And there's at least 10 years for the 1st AZM jet to join PAF.


we dont have 200+ Mirages, we ve only 4 or 5 operational Mirage squadrons that hardly mkes 80 to 100 Max

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## jupiter2007

Ghost 125 said:


> we dont have 200+ Mirages, we ve only 4 or 5 operational Mirage squadrons that hardly mkes 80 to 100 Max



We are still flying F-7s and Mirage. Out of 90 mirage V and 65 Mirage iii, Only hand full of mirage went through rose 2 and 3 upgrade. In total, We have more than 250 older fighter planes, including 100 to 135 F-7s, which should have been replaced by 2018.

Mirage Sqd 7, 8, 15, 22, 25, 27
F-7s sqd 17, 18, 20, 23

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ghost 125

jupiter2007 said:


> We are still flying F-7s and Mirage. Out of 90 mirage V and 65 Mirage iii, Only hand full of mirage went through rose 2 and 3 upgrade. In total, We have more than 250 older fighter planes, including 100 to 135 F-7s, which should have been replaced by 2018.
> 
> Mirage Sqd 7, 8, 15, 22, 25, 27
> F-7s sqd 17, 18, 20, 23


we are flying them but as i said the num of squadrons are less only 6 squadron that makes roughly 120 if at max strength, 4 F 7 squadrons means max 80


----------



## jupiter2007

Ghost 125 said:


> we are flying them but as i said the num of squadrons are less only 6 squadron that makes roughly 120 if at max strength, 4 F 7 squadrons means max 80



It is still 200. We are only planing to build 60 planes (B3 and dual seats B2) in next 6 years, and Project AZM won’t be ready until 2030. PAF is not planning to acquire any new platform in next 10 years. Even if USA agreed to sell new F-16s, it won’t be more than 18. Acquiring older F-16s should be much easier now then 2 years ago. 18 new and 18 older F-16s, that’s 36 planes if IK play his cards correctly.

Question still remains, how are we going to replace 200 older planes?


----------



## StormBreaker

jupiter2007 said:


> It is still 200. We are only planing to build 60 planes (B3 and dual seats B2) in next 6 years, and Project AZM won’t be ready until 2030.
> How are we going to replace 200 older planes?


Don’t forget those 60 you are quoting are simple for Air force which is a huge number in five years. In the mean time, we can expect from Navy as well to order Block 3s. I always had a feeling that baby was waiting for Block 3 and maybe some optimized ew variant as well for their possible future air arm. Even if navy gives order, we have enough production capacity to fulfill that as well along with airforce and exports

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jupiter2007

StormBreaker said:


> Don’t forget those 60 you are quoting are simple for Air force which is a huge number in five years. In the mean time, we can expect from Navy as well to order Block 3s. I always had a feeling that baby was waiting for Block 3 and maybe some optimized ew variant as well for their possible future air arm. Even if navy gives order, we have enough production capacity to fulfill that as well along with airforce and exports



We don’t have the capacity to build more than 18 planes per year for both domestic and international orders.


----------



## StormBreaker

jupiter2007 said:


> We don’t have the capacity to build more than 18 planes per year for both domestic and international orders.


We can exceed 20 and can go for 24 !!!
We have enough capacity Alhamdullilah

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Export zaroor hona chahiye JF17 ko we can make it the MiG21 of 21st century, a staple of every 3rd(some 1st) world countries.


StormBreaker said:


> We can exceed 20 and can go for 24 !!!
> We have enough capacity Alhamdullilah


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

jupiter2007 said:


> It is still 200. We are only planing to build 60 planes (B3 and dual seats B2) in next 6 years, and Project AZM won’t be ready until 2030. PAF is not planning to acquire any new platform in next 10 years. Even if USA agreed to sell new F-16s, it won’t be more than 18. Acquiring older F-16s should be much easier now then 2 years ago. 18 new and 18 older F-16s, that’s 36 planes if IK play his cards correctly.
> 
> Question still remains, how are we going to replace 200 older planes?


Why not buy from Norway and upgrade all of them?


----------



## jupiter2007

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Why not buy from Norway and upgrade all of them?



That's always an option but It has to be approved by USA government.

The idea of local production of *Hongdu L-15B* in Pakistan was floating few years back but Chinese was asking too much money for it. It's not worth spending 15 million for each.


----------



## GriffinsRule

We also have Mirages that are barely 20 years old and have a lot of life left in them. Expect to see a small batch of Mirages flying in PAF for another 2 decades.


----------



## jupiter2007

GriffinsRule said:


> We also have Mirages that are barely 20 years old and have a lot of life left in them. Expect to see a small batch of Mirages flying in PAF for another 2 decades.



It would be ideal to replace all F-7s by 2025 and decommissioned all mirages fighters by 2028.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## araz

jupiter2007 said:


> It is still 200. We are only planing to build 60 planes (B3 and dual seats B2) in next 6 years, and Project AZM won’t be ready until 2030. PAF is not planning to acquire any new platform in next 10 years. Even if USA agreed to sell new F-16s, it won’t be more than 18. Acquiring older F-16s should be much easier now then 2 years ago. 18 new and 18 older F-16s, that’s 36 planes if IK play his cards correctly.
> 
> Question still remains, how are we going to replace 200 older planes?


I dont think we should run after newer 16s at all. If we need newer fighters we should build more JFTs. The blackmail from US needs to stop and the only way this is going to happen is if we stop using US equipment. I dont think it will matter much as US wants to retain its influence in PA/PAF it will come running after you with offers galore. Remember they will never let go of Pakistan without doing a balancing act vis a vis India and Pakistan.
A

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jupiter2007

araz said:


> I dont think we should run after newer 16s at all. If we need newer fighters we should build more JFTs. The blackmail from US needs to stop and the only way this is going to happen is if we stop using US equipment. I dont think it will matter much as US wants to retain its influence in PA/PAF it will come running after you with offers galore. Remember they will never let go of Pakistan without doing a balancing act vis a vis India and Pakistan.
> A



PAF and our generals want more American equipment so they have a reason to visit USA. Love affair between PAF and F-16 will remain active.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## GriffinsRule

jupiter2007 said:


> It would be ideal to replace all F-7s by 2025 and decommissioned all mirages fighters by 2028.


Yes ideal, but not realistic.


----------



## Haris Ali2140

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes ideal, but not realistic.


How many F-7s are left??? @Tipu7 said that there are only 2 sq. left.

@Dazzler @Windjammer

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

Haris Ali2140 said:


> How many F-7s are left??? @Tipu7 said that there are only 2 sq. left.
> 
> @Dazzler @Windjammer


I make it at least four squadrons still equipped with a mix of F-7Ps and F-7PGs.
17...18...20 and 23.....plus the Shooter LIFT unit.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Tipu7

Haris Ali2140 said:


> How many F-7s are left??? @Tipu7 said that there are only 2 sq. left.
> 
> @Dazzler @Windjammer


One squadron of F7/FT7-P
Sq18 Sharp Shooters

Three Squadrons of F7/FT7-PG
Sq 17 Tigers
Sq 20 Cheetahs
Sq 23 Talons

In total, roughly 85 F7P/PG aircrafts are still operational in PAF. (including dual seat variants)

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Windjammer

Tipu7 said:


> One squadron of F7/FT7-P
> Sq18 Shooters
> 
> Three Squadrons of F7/FT7-PG
> Sq 17 Tigers
> Sq 20 Cheetahs
> Sq 23 Talons


No 18 is called.....Sharp Shooters, whereas Shooters is the new F-7 LIFT unit.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tipu7

Windjammer said:


> No 18 is called.....Sharp Shooters, whereas Shooters is the new F-7 LIFT unit.


Hmmm. Meaning both squadrons go side by side where Sharp Shooters is a dedicated combat squadron while Shooters is its extension meant for LIFT purposes.


----------



## Windjammer

Tipu7 said:


> Hmmm. Meaning both squadrons go side by side where Sharp Shooters is a dedicated combat squadron while Shooters is its extension meant for LIFT purposes.


Nopes.....Sharpshooters are home base Rafiqui while Shooters is stationed in M M ALAM Base, Minawali.


----------



## Tipu7

Windjammer said:


> Nopes.....Sharpshooters are home base Rafiqui while Shooters is stationed in M M ALAM Base, Minawali.


And Shooters squadron No is?


----------



## Windjammer

Tipu7 said:


> And Shooters squadron No is?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khanasifm

No 18 sharpshooter is the last f-7p sqn still there unless the new jf sqn in works replaces it ?? One by March expected ?? 

Shooter was new LIFT type temp sqn made up of f-7ps airframes with some hours left and will be disbanded or replaced by jf or something else who knows


----------



## araz

jupiter2007 said:


> PAF and our generals want more American equipment so they have a reason to visit USA. Love affair between PAF and F-16 will remain active.


It may not be the sole reason. Yes certain people may have benefited from these Lockmart/PAF /USA deals but the issue remains that in spite of sanction the 16s remain our fronline fighters to date. The maturity of equipment and the weapons system and the price makes it an ideal weapons system. We did not have any alternative either as the French are prohibitively expensive and the EU poses the same problems in addition to being in the US pockets. The Red bear/has kept his tous away from us till fairly recently and the Chinese are only just breaking into the party. So retrospectively thinking where were our options looking at price vs capabilities? I am sure our independence decision has also been shaped by these factors and what it has given us in spite of limited time in the industry is matchless performance on a price scale which we can afford. PAC seems like a small child spoilt rotten in a Toys factory where it gets to make its own toys as per its specifications. We have our Chinese brothers to thank for this endeavour along with the hard work of some of our stalwarts. It needs vision to be able to set up on newer directions but once the way becomes clearer everyone can follow this route.
A

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Nopes.....Sharpshooters are home base Rafiqui while Shooters is stationed in M M ALAM Base, Minawali.


Sharp Shooters home base is Mianwali,they left Rafiqui in 2013/14.

Both squadrons are based in Mianwali.



Windjammer said:


> I make it at least four squadrons still equipped with a mix of F-7Ps and F-7PGs.
> 17...18...20 and 23.....plus the Shooter LIFT unit.


You forgot Sky Bolts from CCS

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

In air force who is responsible for pre flight pilot or the ground crew/technicians.

What about in ADA scramble is the pre flight skipped altogether?


----------



## haroonn

Hodor said:


> You forgot Sky Bolts from CCS



Isn't CCS F-7 called "Dashings" & Mirage squadron "Skybolts"?


----------



## Tank131

So, with the introduction of Ra'ad II, it got me wondering about India's strike capacity, specifically, weapons similar to Ra'ad. Of course we have Brahmos, but that was a "joint" Indian/russian project. Then there is Storm Shadow. I know there is talk that the Emirates received MTCR compliant variant known locally as Black Shaheen, but what of those in service with Egypt, KSA, Qatar and specifically India? The stated range of the missile is 560km (well above the 300km MTCR limits). Did these countries also recieve MTCR compliant weapons?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa), @MastanKhan, @Windjammer


----------



## HRK

Tank131 said:


> specifically India?


India has become full member of MTCR in 2018 so it can receive full range version
link: 1, 2


----------



## Muhammad Burham

hassan1 said:


> how i classification of paf air defence
> how many units in paf air defence
> for example
> radars unit
> baloon baridge unit
> aa guns unit
> ???
> i dont know more
> plz reply me


Being a responsible citizen, Such information can not be posted on internet.


----------



## ghazi52



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Incog_nito

Is PAF looking to acquire these Aircraft from China:

40-60: J-10Cs 
40-60: JH-7Bs (for Navy)
40-60: J-20 (if possible)


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF looking to acquire these Aircraft from China:
> 
> 40-60: J-10Cs
> 40-60: JH-7Bs (for Navy)
> 40-60: J-20 (if possible)


Hain? 
Nahi bhai


----------



## StormBreaker

IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF looking to acquire these Aircraft from China:
> 
> 40-60: J-10Cs
> 40-60: JH-7Bs (for Navy)
> 40-60: J-20 (if possible)


Free mein batrahe hain ?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Lone Ranger

IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF looking to acquire these Aircraft from China:
> 
> 40-60: J-10Cs
> 40-60: JH-7Bs (for Navy)
> 40-60: J-20 (if possible)


bhai yaha khanay ko roti nahi hai ye kaha se aain ge

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TsAr

IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF looking to acquire these Aircraft from China:
> 
> 40-60: J-10Cs
> 40-60: JH-7Bs (for Navy)
> 40-60: J-20 (if possible)


where did you get this idea from?


----------



## Incog_nito

TsAr said:


> where did you get this idea from?


Just got an idea  but this is all plausible. I have even heard that PAF or PNAF got some JH-7Bs.

Heard that Pakistan is getting JH-7Bs from China as a gift.

Will that be for PNAF? if that's true I wish PN will going to establish 3 squadrons of it.


*Karachi*
*Ormara (Develop a New Air Base)*
*Gwadar (Develop a New Air Base)*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Readerdefence

IM Ozair said:


> Just got an idea  but this is all plausible. I have even heard that PAF or PNAF got some JH-7Bs.
> 
> Heard that Pakistan is getting JH-7Bs from China as a gift.
> 
> Will that be for PNAF? if that's true I wish PN will going to establish 3 squadrons of it.
> 
> 
> *Karachi*
> *Ormara (Develop a New Air Base)*
> *Gwadar (Develop a New Air Base)*


Hi my friend there isn’t any free lunch available at the moment none of the navy’s of China & Pakistan can’t even get their cargo vessel to Pakistan from Chinese port as mighty Indian has seized Chinese vessel took it to their port both Chinese & Pakistani were sleeping if they can’t guard their transit goods in between their countries what else 
Thank you


----------



## MastanKhan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi my friend there isn’t any free lunch available at the moment none of the navy’s of China & Pakistan can’t even get their cargo vessel to Pakistan from Chinese port as mighty Indian has seized Chinese vessel took it to their port both Chinese & Pakistani were sleeping if they can’t guard their transit goods in between their countries what else
> Thank you



Hi,

This information is incorrect---. The ship was already docked in the port---and had the permission to sale the next day when it got boarded on the day of departure---.


----------



## airomerix

Ahmet Pasha said:


> In air force who is responsible for pre flight pilot or the ground crew/technicians.
> 
> What about in ADA scramble is the pre flight skipped altogether?



Pilots only double check a few things before take off. The ground crew's area of responsibility. 

ADA jets have already undergone preflight as soon as the pilot is assigned on the ADA.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

So pilots basically do run up procedures/checks before actual take off. And ground crew does ALL the preflight?

OR do pilot do some preflight in addition to run up checks? Do fighter jets even have run up checks??


airomerix said:


> Pilots only double check a few things before take off. The ground crew's area of responsibility.
> 
> ADA jets have already undergone preflight as soon as the pilot is assigned on the ADA.


----------



## airomerix

Ahmet Pasha said:


> So pilots basically do run up procedures/checks before actual take off. And ground crew does ALL the preflight?
> 
> OR do pilot do some preflight in addition to run up checks? Do fighter jets even have run up checks??



It's not like pilots do not do anything at all. 

Pilots are responsible for making sure the 'crew' has done its job. May it be pre flight, post flight or run up. 

There are some checks of crew chief which are only done by him. Then there are certain checks of pilots which cannot be done by crew chief. Like fire trolley present, crew chief present, intake & dust excluders removed, saftey pins and armour pins removed. etc.

For ADA aircraft, the checks are already done. Only the checks related to start up are done.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Yeah that's what I thought since all of this would play a part in the reaction time during a scramble.


airomerix said:


> It's not like pilots do not do anything at all.
> 
> Pilots are responsible for making sure the 'crew' has done its job. May it be pre flight, post flight or run up.
> 
> There are some checks of crew chief which are only done by him. Then there are certain checks of pilots which cannot be done by crew chief. Like fire trolley present, crew chief present, intake & dust excluders removed, saftey pins and armour pins removed. etc.
> 
> For ADA aircraft, the checks are already done. Only the checks related to start up are done.


----------



## Readerdefence

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This information is incorrect---. The ship was already docked in the port---and had the permission to sale the next day when it got boarded on the day of departure---.


Hi Mastan Khan thanks for the update I wrote what I heard from the Pakistani FA spokeswoman including her Chinese counterpart if that’s the case at least a face saving for both the nations but they shouldn’t be boarded on the ship at the first instance 
I hope you understand what I’m trying to say 
Thank you

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Incog_nito

Are any JH-7 (A or B) coming to PAF / PNAF?


----------



## Incog_nito

Any possibility of PAF thinking of acquiring Saab Gripped E/F models in near future? May be a deal in 2021?


----------



## ZedZeeshan

Incog_nito said:


> Any possibility of PAF thinking of acquiring Saab Gripped E/F models in near future? May be a deal in 2021?


NO


----------



## Incog_nito

ZedZeeshan said:


> NO


But I guess in the current situation PAF can ask China to send some:
40 J10A&S
And place an order of:
40 J10C

But what about the JH7B which China was gifting Pakistan? Good to have 3 to 4 squadrons for naval role.


----------



## Imran Khan

Incog_nito said:


> Any possibility of PAF thinking of acquiring Saab Gripped E/F models in near future? May be a deal in 2021?


not even in 2121 sir . they are not toyota corolla to be changed every year

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Incog_nito

Imran Khan said:


> not even in 2121 sir . they are not toyota corolla to be changed every year


Then Chinese ones with some Chinese monetary support?


----------



## Imran Khan

Incog_nito said:


> Then Chinese ones with some Chinese monetary support?


nothing will come jf-17 block3 will come and then project AZM will see the light .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Incog_nito

Just like other countries can Pakistan have a private airforce that can assist in PAF training and small missions?

Having JF-17s, J-10s & J-11s


----------



## ziaulislam

Incog_nito said:


> But I guess in the current situation PAF can ask China to send some:
> 40 J10A&S
> And place an order of:
> 40 J10C
> 
> But what about the JH7B which China was gifting Pakistan? Good to have 3 to 4 squadrons for naval role.


only if project AZM fails and is pushed to beyond 2030 or something else unexpectedly happens..
PAF has high *hopes* on jf17 and more f16s

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## untitled

ghazi52 said:


>


Could the F6 carry 6 missiles?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TsAr

Incog_nito said:


> Just like other countries can Pakistan have a private airforce that can assist in PAF training and small missions?
> 
> Having JF-17s, J-10s & J-11s


Mind giving an example or some reference of private airforce used by any country in a conflict...


----------



## untitled

The C130 has been used in many roles including as an AWACS. But why hasn't it been used in the anti-submarine role?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## PanzerKiel

untitled said:


> The C130 has been used in many roles including as an AWACS. But why hasn't it been used in the anti-submarine role?



Yes, something like that...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## untitled

PanzerKiel said:


> Yes, something like that.


Probably been on the drawing board but never considered. Lockheed for some reason always preferred the P3 (earlier P2 Neptunes) over the C130 in this role. And now Boeing has taken over with their P8s

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## untitled

TsAr said:


> Mind giving an example or some reference of private airforce


If I remember correctly the drug lord Carlos Lehder wanted to acquire some Harrier jump jets to protect his operations in the Carribbean

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ziaulislam

untitled said:


> The C130 has been used in many roles including as an AWACS. But why hasn't it been used in the anti-submarine role?


Was made on paper 
It was offered but nobody bought it

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TsAr

untitled said:


> If I remember correctly the drug lord Carlos Lehder wanted to acquire some Harrier jump jets to protect his operations in the Carribbean


wanted! it was a wish that did not come true....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

@Mirage Battle Commander test hogaya PAF ka?


----------



## nomi007

untitled said:


> Could the F6 carry 6 missiles?


No


----------



## untitled

nomi007 said:


> No


Thought so


----------



## Nomad40

Pakistani Fighter said:


> @Mirage Battle Commander test hogaya PAF ka?



*Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem*

Abhi bhai corona hay me Canada me betha hu

Allah malik hay I have a bright future here Inshallah ahead of me but PAF is On top of all must try if Allah wishes.

Prayers needed.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Incog_nito

There was a thread of PAF possible acquisition of Mirage 2000s from Qatar and UAE.

Can anyone share the link, please?


----------



## litman

what role F-7 will play in any future war???
F-16- air defence.
JFT - complement F-16 in air defence , air to ground strikes and air to sea role
mirage- ground strike
F-7/ F-16 ADF-?????may be the second line air defence duties and limited air to ground strikes very close to the border.


----------



## Ultima Thule

litman said:


> what role F-7 will play in any future war???
> F-16- air defence.
> JFT - complement F-16 in air defence , air to ground strikes and air to sea role
> mirage- ground strike
> F-7/ F-16 ADF-?????may be the second line air defence duties and limited air to ground strikes very close to the border.


point defense or base defense i assume


----------



## truthfollower

what kind of plane might be flying?

You cant hear it but can see its blinking lights
how high it might be flying
And no data on flightradar24


----------



## untitled

Why don't BVR missiles have folding wings like on standoff bombs? Won't the resultant extra lift increase the flight time of the missile?


----------



## Talon

untitled said:


> Why don't BVR missiles have folding wings like on standoff bombs? Won't the resultant extra lift increase the flight time of the missile?


SOW are used against stationary or slow moving targets so even if the motor goes off or runs out of fuel the bomb will hit its target (if launched with correct procedures) but this is not the case for AA missile,the target aircraft will be cold and moving away from the missile so when the missile runs out of fuel its gliding capability will be useless..at least that's what I understand.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## untitled

Hodor said:


> gliding capability will be useless.


I was thinking along the lines of having delta-wings to assist in mach 2+ plus speeds


----------



## Jungibaaz

untitled said:


> Why don't BVR missiles have folding wings like on standoff bombs? Won't the resultant extra lift increase the flight time of the missile?



They do have wings and fins.







You’re right to ask about where the lift component of their flight characteristics comes from. It doesn’t seem obvious but at those higher supersonic speeds that these AAMs achieve, the body of the missile and those small wings generate a lot of lift compared to the small mass of the AAM.

Also, some missiles you’ll see like ASRAAM and that have no wings, just small fins for control. It’s been optimised for low drag, and at high speed, given even slight AoA, the body of the missile produces enough lift. For most missiles there’s a sweet spot for AoA and associated lift to drag ratio that’ll allow it to achieve maximum range.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

untitled said:


> Why don't BVR missiles have folding wings like on standoff bombs? Won't the resultant extra lift increase the flight time of the missile?



no. Only missiles fires from canisters have fuddling fins/strakes. Others are all optimized for their flight envelope include, take off, ferry, launch, all the way to target.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Talon

untitled said:


> I was thinking along the lines of having delta-wings to assist in mach 2+ plus speeds


Well in your previous post you talked about increasing flight time so I replied in that context

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## PDF

PanzerKiel said:


> Controlled Flight Into Terrain
> 
> an accident in which an airworthy aircraft, under pilot control, is unintentionally flown into the ground, a mountain, a body of water or an obstacle





PanzerKiel said:


> ... And you can also imagine....
> 
> Clear night sky, full of stars with big moon..... That's in the sky, but then you see the same image in the sea, below the horizon as well....
> 
> So what you see is, stars all around you, two moons..... No horizon visible to naked eye..... That's where you've got to trust your instruments.


@gambit @Bilal Khan 777
Sirs, can you divulge up further on CFIT and any incidents that comes to your mind that you heard during your careers? Just thought ex fighter pilots' posts will be great to learn and hear from.


----------



## faq

Dear All,

I'm a researcher/producer whose developing a project concerning the 17th August 1988 plane crash that took the life of 30 people, most notably President Zia Ul-Haq and US Ambassador Arnold Raphael.

I've been looking into the crash for nearly 20 years and have spoken to various individuals who have knowledge of the crash as well as gaining access to thousands of pages of documentation that have never been seen before.

The goal is to produce a piece of work (either as a podcast and/or a book) that would examines all the theories surrounding the cause of the crash, carefully assessing the credibility of each one.

As part of this work, I'd like to speak to people who can volunteer what they saw or heard of the crash during this period. 

Part of my work has led me to look at the theories that were put forward by a now deceased PAF officer, Zaheer Zaidi, who was part of the original crash investigation team. 

Another is to look at former PAF officer, Akram Awan, alleged involvement in the crash. He was convicted of spying but stories have been published claiming he had some knowledge of it. There is not much known about either officer beyond what has been published in the Pakistan press at the time and has been repeated since. Most recently in Ejaz Ul Haq's interview to Turkish media in February 2020.

I understand that this story has attracted a great deal of theories, some of it easily dismissible, and it is my intention to try and produce a piece of work that lays to rest some of the misinformation surrounding it.

Did anyone here know what happened with this and the subsequent investigations looking into the crash? Who would it be worth me reaching out to? Is there documentation you would recommend I look at? 

Some background about myself, I work as a writer/producer in the UK and US. Films I helped make include the Emmy and BAFTA award winning documentary, LEAVING NEVERLAND. The BAFTA winning feature, FOUR LIONS and the critically acclaimed satire, THE DAY SHALL COME. I've also worked on documentaries looking at the 2017 Manchester Arena bombing and the Grenfell Tower fire.

If you have any questions about myself or the project, I can be reached at faq@protonmail.com .

Sincerely,

Faisal A. Qureshi 
-----------
This post was vetted by the Webmaster of the forum.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## V. Makarov

There are some things, that happen in Pakistan, which suddenly disappear from everyday discussion. One such thing is also the OBL raid in Abbottabad. I hope you are able to compile and analyze new info regarding the 88' crash. I also think that someone should dive into the mystery that is the OBL raid, so that future Pakistani generation can know what went wrong. 



sorry for derailing the thread a bit.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## faq

V. Makarov said:


> There are some things, that happen in Pakistan, which suddenly disappear from everyday discussion. One such thing is also the OBL raid in Abbottabad. I hope you are able to compile and analyze new info regarding the 88' crash. I also think that someone should dive into the mystery that is the OBL raid, so that future Pakistani generation can know what went wrong.



The information I have uncovered so far does correct some aspects of the crash that have been accepted as facts. For example, it tends to be reported that the US ambassador and general were last minute guests of Zia Ul-Haq. In fact they had been booked in advance. Another is the missing flight recorder whereas the plane had no such device which was not unusual.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

faq said:


> Dear All,
> 
> I'm a researcher/producer whose developing a project concerning the 17th August 1988 plane crash that took the life of 30 people, most notably President Zia Ul-Haq and US Ambassador Arnold Raphael.
> 
> I've been looking into the crash for nearly 20 years and have spoken to various individuals who have knowledge of the crash as well as gaining access to thousands of pages of documentation that have never been seen before.
> 
> The goal is to produce a piece of work (either as a podcast and/or a book) that would examines all the theories surrounding the cause of the crash, carefully assessing the credibility of each one.
> 
> As part of this work, I'd like to speak to people who can volunteer what they saw or heard of the crash during this period.
> 
> Part of my work has led me to look at the theories that were put forward by a now deceased PAF officer, Zaheer Zaidi, who was part of the original crash investigation team.
> 
> Another is to look at former PAF officer, Akram Awan, alleged involvement in the crash. He was convicted of spying but stories have been published claiming he had some knowledge of it. There is not much known about either officer beyond what has been published in the Pakistan press at the time and has been repeated since. Most recently in Ejaz Ul Haq's interview to Turkish media in February 2020.
> 
> I understand that this story has attracted a great deal of theories, some of it easily dismissible, and it is my intention to try and produce a piece of work that lays to rest some of the misinformation surrounding it.
> 
> Did anyone here know what happened with this and the subsequent investigations looking into the crash? Who would it be worth me reaching out to? Is there documentation you would recommend I look at?
> 
> Some background about myself, I work as a writer/producer in the UK and US. Films I helped make include the Emmy and BAFTA award winning documentary, LEAVING NEVERLAND. The BAFTA winning feature, FOUR LIONS and the critically acclaimed satire, THE DAY SHALL COME. I've also worked on documentaries looking at the 2017 Manchester Arena bombing and the Grenfell Tower fire.
> 
> If you have any questions about myself or the project, I can be reached at faq@protonmail.com .
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Faisal A. Qureshi
> -----------
> This post was vetted by the Webmaster of the forum.


moved to Air Force questions thread


----------



## truthfollower

Jungibaaz said:


> You’re right to ask about where the lift component of their flight characteristics comes from. It doesn’t seem obvious but at those higher supersonic speeds that these AAMs achieve, the body of the missile and those small wings generate a lot of lift compared to the small mass of the AAM.
> 
> Also, some missiles you’ll see like ASRAAM and that have no wings, just small fins for control. It’s been optimised for low drag, and at high speed, given even slight AoA, the body of the missile produces enough lift. For most missiles there’s a sweet spot for AoA and associated lift to drag ratio that’ll allow it to achieve maximum range.


why russian missiles have these odd looking fins in the middle?


----------



## Trailer23

*Q.* How do Wings work in the PAF?

So far i've seen Three Colors being used.

Anyone who reaches the rank of Wing Commander, gets the Red Crescent & Star.

Officers upto the rank of Squadron Leader wear the Blue Crescent & Star.

*Q.* What about the White Crescent & Star?



















​@Hodor @Raider 21 @airomerix


----------



## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> *Q.* How do Wings work in the PAF?
> 
> So far i've seen Three Colors being used.
> 
> Anyone who reaches the rank of Wing Commander, gets the Red Crescent & Star.
> 
> Officers upto the rank of Squadron Leader wear the Blue Crescent & Star.
> 
> *Q.* What about the White Crescent & Star?
> 
> View attachment 680401
> 
> 
> View attachment 680404
> 
> 
> View attachment 680405
> 
> 
> View attachment 680406
> ​@Hodor @Raider 21 @airomerix



Ranks have nothing to do with color of the wings. You will see certain 1/2/3 star's with a blue wings too. It is all about the flying hours. 

White: 0-1500 hrs
Blue : 1500-2500 hrs
Red: +2500 hrs

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Trailer23

airomerix said:


> White: 0-1500 hrs
> Blue : 1500-2500 hrs
> Red: +2500 hrs


[Kya baat hai aap ki, Sir jee]

Thank you.

If it weren't for individuals like yourself, the ignorant would assume...kay [shayed rung pasand par hota ho ga] 😆 .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> Ranks have nothing to do with color of the wings. You will see certain 1/2/3 star's with a blue wings too. It is all about the flying hours.
> 
> White: 0-1500 hrs
> Blue : 1500-2500 hrs
> Red: +2500 hrs
> 
> View attachment 680422


Seen 3 at home. The red one I clearly remember. And yes the mentioned categories are correct.


----------



## mingle

Imran Khan said:


> can any body answer me who give pakistan F5 jets tempary in 1971 war.


These were Jordanian jets 5 of them sent but didn't see any action


----------



## Salman Baig

Why we never see fighter jets on patrol over Lahore. Is Lahore a no fly zone for them in peace time? Or they fly so high that its not possible to spot them or hear their roar? Years ago I went to Karachi and fighters jets were quite frequently seen there. 
Only time I see fighter jets in Lahore is twice in September. Once they arrive for air show display and once when they leave back. And that too didn't happened this year. Only other time I saw them was post Mumbai attack in 2008 when India was threatening then fighter jets did a low fly past over Lahore for public moral lifting. Shaking almost every window in Gulberg area by roar.


----------



## truthfollower

wow 

@Trailer23 
PAF pilots are not allowed to capture such footage?


----------



## Nomad40

mingle said:


> These were Jordanian jets 5 of them sent but didn't see any action


Libyan I guess


----------



## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Libyan I guess


No libyan Jett in Pak at 71 War only Jordan send jetts


----------



## Nomad40

mingle said:


> No libyan Jett in Pak at 71 War only Jordan send jetts


Man I just cant remember but I believe if my memory serves me right, I did se a painting of Libyan F-5's In Masroor ik for a fact that Turks sent over there F-104's---- any ways there is a PAF saber with I believe 4 air to air kill an is in Winnipeg. 

A coupe of turk Star fighter's in Canada as well and Turk F-5's.

Reactions: Wow Wow:
1


----------



## PDF

How does dropping external tanks feel like? I mean other than adrenaline push ( if dropped due to combat initialization), does the jet get lighter and more manoeuvrable (would be same after weapons) ?

Also, at what flying speed should a missile be released such as A2A or A2G munitions? Is there a minimum speed required?


----------



## TsAr

PDF said:


> How does dropping external tanks feel like? I mean other than adrenaline push ( if dropped due to combat initialization), does the jet get lighter and more manoeuvrable (would be same after weapons) ?


You are driving with 4 people in the car, how would the drive feel if 4 of them get off? Any decrease in load will make the plane more responsive and maneuverable.


----------



## Trailer23

PDF said:


> How does dropping external tanks feel like? I mean other than adrenaline push ( if dropped due to combat initialization), does the jet get lighter and more manoeuvrable (would be same after weapons) ?
> 
> Also, at what flying speed should a missile be released such as A2A or A2G munitions? Is there a minimum speed required?


I think @TsAr put it in simplest words for anyone to understand, but i'll go one step further from a infamous (or notorious) incident that took place last year.

27th Feb, 2019 - Wg Cdr. Abhinandan Varthaman failed to drop his External Tanks during combat.

Alan Warnes & Kaiser Tufail give a clearer picture... Just click play on vid (below)





I can't speak on a missile being launched A2A, I think someone with more knowledge would have a better idea. I will say this that I doubt speed would truly matter in the event a BVR is being launched.

As for A2G, I don't think would be wise to overshoot something that isn't moving.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Nomad40

PDF said:


> How does dropping external tanks feel like? I mean other than adrenaline push ( if dropped due to combat initialization), does the jet get lighter and more manoeuvrable (would be same after weapons) ?
> 
> Also, at what flying speed should a missile be released such as A2A or A2G munitions? Is there a minimum speed required?


The speed will determine the range of the smart munition higher the speed the better the range. anywhere between 450 Knots - 500 knots I believe will be an ideal speed (at least in dcs) but theoretical you can drop munition at what ever speed you want. 

You can discover the answer to the fuel tank question. Take a nice heavy object and run and whilst running drop it (make sure you dont hurt yourself) and you will have an answer.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Akh1112

PDF said:


> How does dropping external tanks feel like? I mean other than adrenaline push ( if dropped due to combat initialization), does the jet get lighter and more manoeuvrable (would be same after weapons) ?
> 
> Also, at what flying speed should a missile be released such as A2A or A2G munitions? Is there a minimum speed required?



Depends on the type of munition.

For a BVRAAM, the end goal is, your missile has as much kinetic energy as possible by the time it meets its target. Most BVRAAMs have a engine burn time of only a few seconds, meaning they undergo rapid acceleration however, for most of the flight time, they are not powered. Now, lets use a simple example to visualise the effect of speed on a missile:

F-16 lets say it is travelling at 250kts. Now, the missiles motor causes it to accelerate to 1000kts, now, if we look at the total speed, we get 1250kts at its peak, since the missile does not need to accelerate from 0, so you have a advantage of 250kts. Overall the missile travels faster right vs a non moving object(this is an entirely hypothetical example).


In the terminal stage of a missiles flight, it has the least kinetic energy of any flight profile, this means, you could potentially outmaneuver it, this would be the best time to try, as say something like a sharp climb could be hard for the missile to follow as all it is experiencing is drag and lift, no thrust, however, your fighter is able to constantly output thrust. Therefore, by maximising the missiles kinetic energy, you increase the energy available to the missile by adding whatever speed you were flying at, to whatever speed the missiles motor can bring it to, giving your missile every little bit of extra chance to hit its target- another way to look at this is the Probability of Kill, or pK, simply put, the more KE a missile has, the higher its pK, regardless of other factors such as a dense ew environment or adverse weather conditions.

Missiles use every trick to maximise their range and pK, including lofting, where they climb to a higher altitude, where the air is thinner, therefore less drag and less counter forces, i.e less air to push against the thrust of the motor, enabling them to produce more speed per unit thrust or whatever, enabling them to be faster at time of interception. It also gives the missile an opportunity to pick up more speed if it needs to descend to meet the target at its calculated point of impact.

Same principle applies to glide bombs or any sort of ER bombs, Higher launch altitude= less air= less drag=more speed= more range. 

For dumb bombs without any sort of range extender kit, it doesn't matter nearly as much, if not, at all.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PDF

What is the difference between UAV and UCAV. I am asking this because many times, drones are catagorized as UAV although they are armed with munitions and weapons.


----------



## MIRauf

In simple terms, an UCAV is also an UAV, however not all UAV are UCAV.


----------



## Akh1112

PDF said:


> What is the difference between UAV and UCAV. I am asking this because many times, drones are catagorized as UAV although they are armed with munitions and weapons.


C in ucav stands for Combat, armed uavs come under ucavs, recce uavs, so single use designs, uav's


----------



## Incog_nito

Why people are discussing about the MiG-35s?


----------



## Irfan Baloch

PDF said:


> What is the difference between UAV and UCAV. I am asking this because many times, drones are catagorized as UAV although they are armed with munitions and weapons.
> [/QUOTE
> UCAV is armed with weapons


----------



## syed_yusuf

Infographic: The Mammoth Cost Of Operating America's Combat Aircraft


This chart shows the operating cost per aircraft in fiscal year 2018.




www.statista.com





Cost of operating us aircraft

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vapour

If PAF had the finances, what is the ideal number of squadrons to have - thinking wrt to the current scenario, where inevitably IAF will gain air supremacy due to sheer numbers in an all-out war situation?


----------



## fatman17

Vapour said:


> If PAF had the finances, what is the ideal number of squadrons to have - thinking wrt to the current scenario, where inevitably IAF will gain air supremacy due to sheer numbers in an all-out war situation?


That will always be the case, money or no money. btw PAF budget is 26 sqdns up from a previous of 22. IAF is in the 45 to 48 sqdns range.


----------



## Incog_nito

As Leonardo is now in Pakistan, shall we all expect that PAF CCS will be getting some in coming year:

50 M-345
50 M-346


----------



## Incog_nito

Besides PAF's interest in J-20, will PAF going to evaluate the Russian SU-57 for a possible acquisition after 2025?


----------



## Imran Khan

Incog_nito said:


> Besides PAF's interest in J-20, will PAF going to evaluate the Russian SU-57 for a possible acquisition after 2025?


did we ever used a single russian fighter jet in our history sir ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Incog_nito

Imran Khan said:


> did we ever used a single russian fighter jet in our history sir ?



Do we need history to buy a new platform for our armed forces? Mi-35s were never used by PAA (Mi-25 Hinds) in history. Now, you might say we captured one from the Afghan Air Force. Also, you might say we already operate Mi-17 which is just a transport.

Sir, open your consciousness


----------



## Incog_nito

PAC can also consider a similar deal with Embraer like the one they did with Saab Safari in the 1980s.

PAC can license produce Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano for PAF and other airforces of Asia, Africa, & also for Europe.


----------



## airbus101

Does anyone know what kind of Radar is this


----------



## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> did we ever used a single russian fighter jet in our history sir ?


*بچہ ہے خوش ہونے دو*


----------



## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> did we ever used a single russian fighter jet in our history sir ?


No but copies yes, F6 (MiG19) and F7 (MiG21)

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

F5 (MiG15)?


fatman17 said:


> No but copies yes, F6 (MiG19) and F7 (MiG21)


----------



## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> No but copies yes, F6 (MiG19) and F7 (MiG21)


they were not russian technically sir .


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

A very interesting read for members here.

Recently in a discussion on a chinese def forum---a reputed poster negated this incidence from another poster---who had commented that an aircraft going supersonic can hit its own bullets that it fired.

The reputed member threatened to ban the person who made those comments.

The discussion started with launching of bvr missiles from a supersonic speed---and that reputed member just just using his silly reasoning to negate its effects on the missile.

Anyway----why is it prefered to launch a BVR missile from a plane flying supersonic---well---the missile is already flying supersonic with the aircraft---so it does not have to break the supersonic barrier on its own power---& that means what---!!!!

Doubters----check out Millenium 7 on this issue.



"

Kyle Mizokami
Mon, December 28, 2020, 12:10 PM PST


From Popular Mechanics
In 1956, the Grumman aircraft corporation was testing its new fighter, the F-11 Tiger, off the coast of New York state.
The pilot fired a long burst from its guns and moments later suffered mysterious, catastrophic damage that caved in the windshield and mortally wounded the engine.
What happened? The pilot had shot himself down.

The F-11 Tiger, like all Grumman aircraft, was named after a cat. Fast and nimble, the F-11 was only the second supersonic fighter in the Navy's inventory, capable of 843 miles per hour (Mach 1.1). It was actually Grumman's first supersonic fighter, and the company's inexperience with the consequences of supersonic flight, as well as the fighter's amazing speed, would be one test Tiger's undoing.
*✈ Our Favorite Hobby RC Planes*
On September 21, 1956, as DataGenetics explains, a Grumman test pilot flying a Tiger off the coast of Long Island dropped his nose 20 degrees and pointed it at an empty spot of ocean. He fired a brief, four second burst from his four Colt Mk.12 20-millimeter cannons, entered a steeper descent, and hit the afterburners.
A minute later, his windshield suddenly caved in and his engine started making funny noises, eventually conking out as the pilot attempted to return to Grumman's Long Island airfield. CONTD click on the link below











Ever Hear the Tale of the F-11 Tiger? It's the Fighter Plane That Shot Itself Down


Ever hear the tale of the F-11 Tiger, which literally ran into its own gunfire?




www.yahoo.com


----------



## fatman17

Licenced copies


Imran Khan said:


> they were not russian technically sir .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Raja Porus

Can anyone tell from where I can learn about aircrafts and stuff. Basically I have interest in land warfare but have also developed an interest in aerial warfare recently. Any suggestion/advice will be highly appreciated. Thanks


----------



## Raja Porus

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Can anyone tell from where I can learn about aircrafts and stuff. Basically I have interest in land warfare but have also developed an interest in aerial warfare recently. Any suggestion/advice will be highly appreciated. Thanks


Anyone?


----------



## arjunk

You could read articles on PDF and the rest of the internet, watch vidoes, etc. Ask military people in your family/friends circle questions and they will be happy to answer (avoid classified stuff and immature questions eg kaali vigo).

Then if you want, play a flight sim like DCS world or watch tutorials of it. DCS comes with a free Su-25T and it comes with paid planes like JF-17, F-16, F-18 and F-14. Some of these plains are expensive though, since they are simulated nearly exactly as in real life (all buttons in cockpit are functional, physics simulated etc). You WILL need at least 16GB of RAM if you want anything playable though. And I highly reccomend you use a joystick.

If the free Su-25T is interesting for you and you want to do air to air stuff then I reccomend you buy one of the cheaper paid planes on sale for around $10, like the F-15 or Su-27 (this one comes with a free J-11 too).

If you REALLY think you will enjoy flight simming then wait for a discount and buy the JF-17, it's arguably the best plane in the game at the moment.

Or wait for a free trial period (should be one for the summer sale soon) to test the more complex and expensive planes.

It helps you understand the concepts of aerial warfare really well by putting you in the pilot's place. Though it is a bit lacking in EW but that stuff is impossible to code accurately since it's in the classified domain.

I will say, I've sat in actual simulators and DCS is by far the closest thing to the real deal. But again, be warned, it is kind of buggy and needs a decent PC to run. It also takes patience to master a plane.


Desert Fox 1 said:


> Can anyone tell from where I can learn about aircrafts and stuff. Basically I have interest in land warfare but have also developed an interest in aerial warfare recently. Any suggestion/advice will be highly appreciated. Thanks

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Incog_nito

Is PAF open to acquiring more Mirages from past operators?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

Incog_nito said:


> Is PAF open to acquiring more Mirages from past operators?


Lol. none left


----------



## Incog_nito

fatman17 said:


> Lol. none left


I mean the ex-operators like Swiss. They can be bought and upgraded.

PAF should make a new wing for Mirages as Strike Elements and divide them into 4 groups; 25% fleet in North, 25% fleet in South, 25% fleet in East, and 25% fleet in West.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fatman17

Incog_nito said:


> I mean the ex-operators like Swiss. They can be bought and upgraded.
> 
> PAF should make a new wing for Mirages as Strike Elements and divide them into 4 groups; 25% fleet in North, 25% fleet in South, 25% fleet in East, and 25% fleet in West.


I think they have squeezed every option plus the french won't be forthcoming with any upgrade assistance.

Reactions: Love Love:
1


----------



## Incog_nito

fatman17 said:


> I think they have squeezed every option plus the french won't be forthcoming with any upgrade assistance.



Let's see.


----------



## fatman17

Incog_nito said:


> Let's see.


Sure


----------



## arjunk

Do PAF pilots get to choose which plane they prefer to fly?


----------



## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> View attachment 573315


*Any chance of getting a proper file this time around of PAF Base Mushaf (insignia)?*

Something that isn't from a book.

How is it possible that we keep posting pictures of F-16's and JF-17 & yet its almost impossible to get Base/Squadron insignias?

Any of the usual suspects...are welcome to help out. Working on a new project.

@Windjammer @SQ8 @Hodor @airomerix 

FYI: New vid coming out in 12hrs for 23rd March. Pradhan Mantri [Narendra Modi] to make a special Guest Appearance]  .

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Signalian

Some tasks i was doing few years back. For fun sake and interest if anyone wants.

To design an airborne early warning pulse Doppler radar system with the following specification:


Operating frequency = 3.2 GHz
Range ≥ 200 km
Range resolution = 50 m (i.e. targets 50 m apart can be separately detected)
Receiver noise figure = 6 dB
Received S/N ≥ 12 dB (based on the peak transmitter power)
Transmit and receive antenna gain = 40 dBi
Minimum detectable target radar cross section = 5
What is the maximum range (in km) at which the radar can detect a target with a radar cross section of 5 m2 if the radar is subject to surface clutter with s0 = –30 dB at a grazing angle y = 0.3˚? Assume that the minimum signal to clutter ratio (S/C)min is 4 dB.

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Wow Wow:
1


----------



## JamD

Signalian said:


> Some tasks i was doing few years back. For fun sake and interest if anyone wants.
> 
> To design an airborne early warning pulse Doppler radar system with the following specification:
> 
> 
> Operating frequency = 3.2 GHz
> Range ≥ 200 km
> Range resolution = 50 m (i.e. targets 50 m apart can be separately detected)
> Receiver noise figure = 6 dB
> Received S/N ≥ 12 dB (based on the peak transmitter power)
> Transmit and receive antenna gain = 40 dBi
> Minimum detectable target radar cross section = 5
> What is the maximum range (in km) at which the radar can detect a target with a radar cross section of 5 m2 if the radar is subject to surface clutter with s0 = –30 dB at a grazing angle y = 0.3˚? Assume that the minimum signal to clutter ratio (S/C)min is 4 dB.


Hit me up if this requires adaptive filtering - I know some techniques that might appear magical to some nonadaptive people. I can demonstrate techniques on representative toy problems that you design. Just throwing this wild and wide net out there

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## truthfollower

no air force show for this year air force day?


----------



## khanasifm

In te res ting 









Boeing Unveils New Two-Stage Long-Range Air-To-Air Missile Concept


The new missile offering from Boeing uses two stages instead of one to increase range and lethality.




www.thedrive.com

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

Does any one has information as how the JF-17 gun ammo is loaded.
Is this trolley used to load the ammo drum.


----------



## khanasifm




----------



## TsAr

Windjammer said:


> Does any one has information as how the JF-17 gun ammo is loaded.
> Is this trolley used to load the ammo drum.
> 
> View attachment 779683


This is a locally made trolley made by Daud Sons.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khanasifm




----------



## python-000

Does Pakistan needed big bombers ?


----------



## Signalian

Aircraft could have been saved from crash after it touched the ground ?


----------



## HRK

Signalian said:


> Aircraft could have been saved from crash after it touched the ground ?


this is the video of RC plane, right .... ??

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Talon

Signalian said:


> Aircraft could have been saved from crash after it touched the ground ?


Nope, aircraft literally started to fall into pieces after its exhaust struck with the ground. Timely ejection saved the pilot's life. Don't know if it was luck or the climb was deliberate but it gave enough altitude for him to eject.


HRK said:


> this is the video of RC plane, right .... ??


No..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Signalian

HRK said:


> this is the video of RC plane, right .... ??


Explosion. RC wouldn't explode like that.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Signalian said:


> Explosion. RC wouldn't explode like that.


You clearly haven’t owned a turbine RC - I nearly started a large fire after over stressing the airframe and had it catch fire.
(Not implying that video is/isn’t RC)


----------



## Signalian

SQ8 said:


> You clearly haven’t owned a turbine RC - I nearly started a large fire after over stressing the airframe and had it catch fire.
> (Not implying that video is/isn’t RC)


Yes i haven't - so far.


----------



## Pakistan Space Agency

What aircraft is this parked at Minhas Air Base?


----------



## untitled

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> What aircraft is this parked at Minhas Air Base?
> 
> View attachment 806093​


T-33

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## blinder

untitled said:


> T-33



Preserved. Anyone have a recent photo of it?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Trailer23

Aray, where is that *'PAF Doctrine*' Topic that was started by @Nomad40 a couple of Years back?

J-10's arrived & that Topic went bye-bye. Abhe tou F-Shola's nay bhee ana hai 😆 .

@waz @LeGenD @Irfan Baloch @The Eagle

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Signalian

@PanzerKiel 
What are ROEs on hitting Indian military formations through air strikes on neutral territory like Afghanistan.

Reactions: Love Love:
1


----------



## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> @PanzerKiel
> What are ROEs on hitting Indian military formations through air strikes on neutral territory like Afghanistan.


Lets not say indian...lets call them hostile. Air strikes normally signify a major escalation....much more than small arms fire, artillery fire, sending own special operations troops inside etc. Such strikes normally are launched in retaliation to a major incident.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Love Love:
1


----------



## Signalian

PanzerKiel said:


> Lets not say indian...lets call them hostile. Air strikes normally signify a major escalation....much more than small arms fire, artillery fire, sending own special operations troops inside etc. Such strikes normally are launched in retaliation to a major incident.



Aother point.
Possible use of IAF SAM deployed in Afghanistan in an event of war between India and Pakistan so that PAF is unable to fly it’s sorties with full freedom. An envelope of S-400 on Pakistan’s eastern and western borders can hinder PAF’s capabilities.

Reactions: Love Love:
1


----------



## PanzerKiel

Signalian said:


> Aother point.
> Possible use of IAF SAM deployed in Afghanistan in an event of war between India and Pakistan so that PAF is unable to fly it’s sorties with full freedom. An envelope of S-400 on Pakistan’s eastern and western borders can hinder PAF’s capabilities.


IT can of course. But then, they wont be deployed or pop up out of no where. They are full battalion sized deployments, not some MANPADs. Just their move and them nearing Afghanistan will signal another major spike, which will be countered by us at .....somwhere equally important and pinching.


----------



## Tomcats

PanzerKiel said:


> Lets not say indian...lets call them hostile. Air strikes normally signify a major escalation....much more than small arms fire, artillery fire, sending own special operations troops inside etc. Such strikes normally are launched in retaliation to a major incident.


To add on this, in the case of targeting a HVTs Air strikes have and can be used.

Reactions: Wow Wow:
1


----------



## Reichmarshal

Signalian said:


> Aother point.
> Possible use of IAF SAM deployed in Afghanistan in an event of war between India and Pakistan so that PAF is unable to fly it’s sorties with full freedom. An envelope of S-400 on Pakistan’s eastern and western borders can hinder PAF’s capabilities.


wt have we learnt from the Ukraine war ?
these russian AD systems are more bark than bite


----------



## PanzerKiel

Reichmarshal said:


> wt have we learnt from the Ukraine war ?
> these russian AD systems are more bark than bite


Let's not be that much strict. Those Russian systems faced the complete might of NATO EW systems coupled with C4ISTAR, and what not... The latest systems western world had to offer... Everything the NATO could throw at them.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Reichmarshal

PanzerKiel said:


> Let's not be that much strict. Those Russian systems faced the complete might of NATO EW systems coupled with C4ISTAR, and what not... The latest systems western world had to offer... Everything the NATO could throw at them.


western propaganda aside, Russian systems have faired badly. n its not just the AD systems russia has performed badly across the board. russia will eventually achieve all its objectives but at a prohibitive cost, had the price of oil not been where it is right now, russia would have packed up n gone home a long time ago.

Reactions: Love Love:
1


----------



## TsAr

Signalian said:


> Aother point.
> Possible use of IAF SAM deployed in Afghanistan in an event of war between India and Pakistan so that PAF is unable to fly it’s sorties with full freedom. An envelope of S-400 on Pakistan’s eastern and western borders can hinder PAF’s capabilities.


I am not saying it is impossible, but I don't foresee this in near future.



Reichmarshal said:


> western propaganda aside, Russian systems have faired badly. n its not just the AD systems russia has performed badly across the board. russia will eventually achieve all its objectives but at a prohibitive cost, had the price of oil not been where it is right now, russia would have packed up n gone home a long time ago.


well it was payback from western powers, after Russia thwarted their actions in Syria.


----------

