# Pakistan's Future ICBM 'Taimur'



## Salahadin

Pakistan . ICBMS Nuclear Capable Missile Taimur is this a rumor or is there something we are working on please advise


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## owais.usmani

Rumor until it is tested.


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## spsk

For attacking India or Isrel (may be possible future threat) Pak does not need ICBM,Can any of our friends tell me if there is any significance Pakistan spending on ICBM?


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## jamal18

psugumar said:


> For attacking India or Isrel (may be possible future threat) Pak does not need ICBM,Can any of our friends tell me if there is any significance Pakistan spending on ICBM?



There might / will be a threat from Nato. Something to make people nervous in europe and us might be a good idea.

A slv is needed anyway; a slv is infact an icbm.

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## araz

I think there is a commenrcial market for launching satellites and pakistan wants in on this.These technologies are always dual use and unless we can justify it for the commercial aspect it would be difficult for us to justify it. It is impoertant to understand that each stage of development in science and industry creates many parallel industries and capabilities. in many ways it is that capability which the world wants ot deny us and India tosome extent rather than the Ballistic missiles.
As far as taimur is concerned there are certainly rumours but there is no concrete proof of its existance. If ever we hear of it , I have a strong hunch we will hear of it in its commercial form
I hope it helps 
Araz

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## Awesome

psugumar said:


> For attacking India or Isrel (may be possible future threat) Pak does not need ICBM,Can any of our friends tell me if there is any significance Pakistan spending on ICBM?


We can always use it to attack India from far far away. Especially if a submarine version comes around...

Anyway, we should be capable of attacking any threat that may come by in the future. So we need missiles which can hit any part of the world.

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## Beskar

Isn't Pakistan currently working on MIRV system for now? The ICBM rumours are nothing but rumours for now (Or so it seems) because Pakistan first has to complete it's Ghauri-III and Shaheen-III.

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## Falcon2

I dont think Pak has any ICBM.However they might be working on one and Taimur might be a classified ICBM project for the future.I hope we do get one in the future.When Pak test fired Babur , it shocked the world.

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## TOPGUN

And inshallah we shall do the shocking once again!! very soon..

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## ajpirzada

guys there is already enough propoganda regarding our nukes. and this is when our nukes cant even reach beyond 2000km. imagine once we get an ICBM, even the polar ice caps will start melting. 
i would say first of all we dont really need an ICBM. second even if we do get them, they should be kept as a secret and should only be exposed once our country is threatened by countries beyond our reach. 
for the time being ghauri III and shaheen III will be great. shaheen III, with the range of 4000-4500km, can also be used as an SLV.
and i guess it was said last year that there are no plans for any SLV in next 10yrs.

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## metalfalcon

I heard about Tipu Sultan as well. No more Information about it as well.

Regarding Taimur........ Its nice name by the way but ICBM is liking asking to much from our Scientists first let them Finish Projects like Tipu Sultan (IF ANY) and especially MIRV of Shahenn II and Ghauri III.

We need ICBM for our SLV project and also to Keep USA away from attacking Pakistan, I mean if USA says that there are some high value targets in Islamabad and the Drones Strike....... Pakistan will never want this to happen. Before USA used to strike on Borders areas only now They are Striking deeper and deeper into Pakistan, so that's why i have a feeling that they might Strike in Peshawar as well. So we need ICBM in case they feel safe because of the huge Distance between Pakistan and USA.

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## duhastmish

Sir there are no permanent enemy in this political world. same as no permanent friend so when some people say Pakistan don't need ICBM i don't agree. its always good to have some Armour in your wardrobe, you don't know when you will need it. 
and as an Indian who knows the quality of its political enemy. pakistan might not have it right now but it will have it!

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## Patriot

Pakistan should develop ICBM but keep it secret or buy icbms from China .Anyway i think Pakistan should immediately develop MIRV which is far more important then ICBM because we can hit our enemies easily using ICBM and even if we get ICBM they will be intercepted way before they reach any NATO nations (In case we get into conflict with NATO/US).
Thanks


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## metalfalcon

Falcon2 said:


> I dont think Pak has any ICBM.However they might be working on one and Taimur might be a classified ICBM project for the future.I hope we do get one in the future.When Pak test fired Babur , it shocked the world.



Pakistan is full of surprises and World may see another one soon.


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## duhastmish

metalfalcon said:


> Pakistan is full of surprises and World may see another one soon.


sir 
this is all just nationalist dream, you need to understand that fear of weapon is more important and fearful than weapon itself. and to make a ICBM is no joke you need very high technology ( i don't doubt that Pakistan can make it ... since their experience with missile technology). but you need to do test and answer where this funding go to people of you nation etc. and there are many more factor such as technology share , and making a statement about power of your country. so in my opinion Pakistan don't have a ICBM for now .
*but i am sure they are developing some* , and we the world will know when they will have it.

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## metalfalcon

duhastmish said:


> sir
> this is all just nationalist dream, you need to understand that fear of weapon is more important and fearful than weapon itself. and to make a ICBM is no joke you need very high technology ( i don't doubt that Pakistan can make it ... since their experience with missile technology). but you need to do test and answer where this funding go to people of you nation etc. and there are many more factor such as technology share , and making a statement about power of your country. so in my opinion Pakistan don't have a ICBM for now .
> *but i am sure they are developing some* , and we the world will know when they will have it.



Its the Fear of the weapon which is preventing another war between Pakistan and India, Isn't it ?

As you said we don't have it right now, you are right but no one knows about the future. India knows very well that we are full of Surprises remember India thought we were bluffing on Nukes but we came up with a Bang on 28th of may 1998 and again when we tested Babur cruise missile, India was stunned. 

We are moving forward and we will continue to do so.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Pakistan Pushes To Improve Missile Strike Capability*​
By Usman Ansari
Published: 17 November 2008
Print Print | Print Email

ISLAMABAD - *Pakistan is continuing efforts to increase the range, accuracy and lethality of its ballistic missiles while gradually switching from liquid- to solid-fueled propellants.*

According to P.I. Cheema, head of the Islamabad Policy Research Institute think tank, who last year co-edited "Ballistic Missiles and South Asian Security," these efforts are sparked by the Indian threat.

"The driving force behind the program is basically India," he said. "Basically, throughout the Indo-Pak standoff, Pakistan has always been striving for parity or a qualitative edge, given the disparity we have in terms of numbers. Continuous improvisation is required to ensure the system works and remains valid, so you have to continuously update your systems."

A ballistic missile arsenal is necessary to maintain a national deterrent. The close geographical proximity of India and Pakistan would also make surprise attacks with conventionally armed missiles highly effective.

It is widely believed Pakistan obtained at least some missile-related know-how from abroad to initiate its efforts. The solid-fueled Chinese M-11 and liquid-fueled North Korean No Dong, plus associated technologies, are widely regarded to have formed the building blocks of the Pakistan program.

This has resulted in the Ghauri and Shaheen series of medium- to intermediate-range ballistic missiles. The established development/deployment pattern has seen the simpler liquid-fueled Ghauri series initially fielded, followed by the more advanced, solid-fueled Shaheen.

Liquid-fueled missiles require a longer logistics train (due to having to separately transport the fuel) and take hours to fuel, but they have performed a vital stopgap function. In this way, the 1,500-kilometer range Ghauri-I formed a stopgap until supplemented by the 750-kilometer range Shaheen-I, and then replaced by the 2,300 kilometer Ghauri-II.

*With the deployment of the 2,500-kilometer Shaheen-II, development has shifted to the proposed 3,500- to 4,000-kilometer range Ghauri-III, which will be eventually replaced by the envisioned 4,000- to 4,500-kilometer Shaheen-III.*

Strike at a Safe Distance

Pakistan needs such ranges so it can strike any targets within arch-rival India at a safe enough distance from the Indo-Pak border.

*These increases in range have been achieved by using more efficient fuel or rocket motors, reducing the weight of the payload and simply incorporating additional stages. More ambitious advances involve the quest to increase accuracy by moving away from inertial navigation guidance systems to ones like GPS, and possibly developing multiple warhead technology.*

According to defense analyst Usman Shabbir, the main force behind advances in the missile program is the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM) defense conglomerate and its subsidiary, the National Defence Complex (NDC).

*"NESCOM has been quietly and steadily refining its missile designs with special emphasis on more precision and greater range and warhead capacity," he said. "Work on MIRV [multiple independently targeted re-entry vehicle] warheads is ongoing and might be fielded in the near future on the Shaheen-II ballistic missile system.
*
"NESCOM is also working on new guided missile projects and in some cases helping other Pakistani research facilities with theirs. One such example was the recently tested air-launched cruise missile RAAD, developed by AWC [Air Weapons Complex] in collaboration with NESCOM," Shabbir said.

Pakistan has also developed a range of solid-fueled battlefield and short-range ballistic missiles to target high-value targets such as airfields, headquarters, troop concentrations, and ammunition and supply depots. The 290-kilometer-range Ghaznavi closely resembles the Chinese M-11 (of which Pakistan is said to have received a number in the early 1990s), and there is a possibility it is a variant of the same missile.

The 180-kilometer-range Abdali, however, is a development of Pakistan's initial indigenous efforts to develop a missile capability, the Hatf-1/1A, dating from the 1980s. These missiles can be armed with a range of conventional or nonconventional warheads.

Though the liquid-fueled missiles will eventually be retired, they may yet form the basis of a satellite-launch capability. They are ideal for such purposes because of the comparatively higher thrust they deliver.

However, Arshad Siraj, the secretary of Pakistan's national space agency, the Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission, said, "At this point in time, there is no such program, though it of course would be in the long-term planning of any space agency to have this capability. Perhaps this will happen, but definitely not within the next 10 years."

This is within the timeframe of retiring the Ghauri system and developing it to launch satellites. &#9632;

Pakistan Pushes To Improve Missile Strike Capability - Defense News



This comes from a VERY credible author.

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## asaad-ul-islam

From what we can establish, Tipu Sultan is a different missile, it isn't derived from the shaheen and ghauri series. If Ghauri III has a stated range of 3500-4000 km, and Shaheen III has a range of 4000-4500 km, we are probably looking at a 5000+km range for Tipu Sultan giving us an ICBM.


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## Luftwaffe

hehe long live North Korea....we might already have the missiles blueprints


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## nightcrawler

Prevention is better than cure & I feel that ICBM wth integrated MIRV will certainly make our enemies think 100 times before even planning to attack us. Regarding our future threats yes they don't just lie in our neighbours rather they lie far West!! I believe that certainly missile like Bulava or Topol will give us strategic & psychological benefits over our enemies

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## paritosh

getting an ICBM would go against pakistan.We have the capabiltiy of producing an ICBM on short-notice because of our space program...but havnt because having an ICBM proves to be too much of a liability...if we are to get an ICBM..the MRCA contract and the nuclear deal and similar deals would be hard to come by.pakistan which already is struggling to find strategic partners..will be further pushed to a corner.dont you know that for a nuclear capable country armed with an ICBM...the european countries would refuse to trade all together!

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## hasang20

ICBM is must for Pakistan and we have to make sure it carries the range about 6000KM to reach US and it cities because everyday our citizens are killed and no possible action we have the worst President @ the worst Time Kayani Marshall law now ! and we should stop killing our brothers in NWFP and get Kashmire from India 50years people are dying everyday it makes me sick how much Muslims die everday.

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## Moscow

implications of an icbm for pakistan

ICBM=MILITARY MIGHT
ICBM=ECONOMIC DESTRUCTION.

pakistan needs to decide.
thnx

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## nightcrawler

paritosh said:


> getting an ICBM would go against pakistan.We have the capabiltiy of producing an ICBM on short-notice because of our space program...but havnt because having an ICBM proves to be too much of a liability...if we are to get an ICBM..the MRCA contract and the nuclear deal and similar deals would be hard to come by.pakistan which already is struggling to find strategic partners..will be further pushed to a corner.dont you know that for a nuclear capable country armed with an ICBM...the european countries would refuse to trade all together!



Thats what I am talking about buddy the point here is that Equal division of powers in most circumstances prevent any disastrous war & believe me that Pakistan already is making enough defence contracts with Sweden Germany France & notable China that Quest for strategic partners has already taken shape & the ball is in now our court


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

moscow said:


> implications of an icbm for pakistan
> 
> ICBM=MILITARY MIGHT
> ICBM=ECONOMIC DESTRUCTION.
> 
> pakistan needs to decide.
> thnx



I don't see the latter occurring unless we get someone like Ahmedinejad in power.

Sanctions were place on Pakistan because of US law and Pakistan's nuclear program. 

AFAIK, there is no law in the West that imposes sanctions fro developing an ICBM. The current economic aid is in the context of making the region stable, and if Pakistan has ICBM's, that makes the need for ensuring Pakistan remains stable even more important, since the West would definitely not want a nuclear armed nation with ICBM's to fall apart, and allow those things to get in the hands of extremists.

So contrary to what you said, it will not have an economic impact.

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## Contrarian

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I don't see the latter occurring unless we get someone like Ahmedinejad in power.
> 
> Sanctions were place on Pakistan because of US law and Pakistan's nuclear program.
> 
> AFAIK, there is no law in the West that imposes sanctions fro developing an ICBM. *The current economic aid is in the context of making the region stable, and if Pakistan has ICBM's, that makes the need for ensuring Pakistan remains stable even more important, since the West would definitely not want a nuclear armed nation with ICBM's to fall apart, and allow those things to get in the hands of extremists.*
> 
> So contrary to what you said, it will not have an economic impact.



Flawed analysis. This is exactly diplomacy with a gun to own head.
A nuclear armed nation like Pakistan with ICBM's would create even more of a ruckus and almost every nation barring China would be loathe to give Pakistan offensive technology(which INCLUDES AEW&C's as well as Subs).

Do you realise one thing, this time, the decision to sell U-214's to Pakistan was challenged and there was a debate in Germany. Earlier, there was never such a thing, the govt of the day decided whether to sell or not, this time, it has evoked a parliamentary response. Now whether the deal passed through or not is not the question, the question and point is why did such a hearing take place in the first place.

Same thing in the US, there are senators questioning selling of any military equipment to Pakistan, EDA or not. There would be even greater pressure on western nations to be hard on Pakistan, if it starts having the capability to target them. This does play a huge role. A declared Muslim nation, with nukes and ICBM's that is unstable and has cyclical bankruptcy issues. 

ICBM's would change a lot of things IMO.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

malaymishra123 said:


> Flawed analysis. This is exactly diplomacy with a gun to own head.
> A nuclear armed nation like Pakistan with ICBM's would create even more of a ruckus and almost every nation barring China would be loathe to give Pakistan offensive technology(which INCLUDES AEW&C's as well as Subs).



Diplomacy with a gun to her head? I am not making any arguments that this is how Pakistan should conduct diplomacy - I am merely pointing out that Moscow's analysis of 'economic sanctions' is incorrect. 



> Do you realise one thing, this time, the decision to sell U-214's to Pakistan was challenged and there was a debate in Germany. Earlier, there was never such a thing, the govt of the day decided whether to sell or not, this time, it has evoked a parliamentary response. Now whether the deal passed through or not is not the question, the question and point is why did such a hearing take place in the first place.


What was the last big ticket item Germany sold us and when? And is getting parliamentary approval not a constitutional requirement in Germany?



> Same thing in the US, there are senators questioning selling of any military equipment to Pakistan, EDA or not. There would be even greater pressure on western nations to be hard on Pakistan, if it starts having the capability to target them. This does play a huge role. A declared Muslim nation, with nukes and ICBM's that is unstable and has cyclical bankruptcy issues.
> 
> ICBM's would change a lot of things IMO.


I consider the US attitude to be an 'improvement' since the last time we bought something from them they sanctioned us and kept our money and equipment. So I do not see the attitudes in the US as anythign different from the past, and in fact slightly positive.

Of course a lot of that is tied to the WoT, and will continue so long as the WoT continues - but that is also why Pakistan is moving away from the US in terms of reliance on her equipment.

Attitudes in the West will eventually be shaped by Pakistan's progress towards democracy and fight against AQ and terrorism.

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## asaad-ul-islam

malaymishra123 said:


> Flawed analysis. This is exactly diplomacy with a gun to own head.
> A nuclear armed nation like Pakistan with ICBM's would create even more of a ruckus and almost every nation barring China would be loathe to give Pakistan offensive technology(which INCLUDES AEW&C's as well as Subs).
> 
> Do you realise one thing, this time, the decision to sell U-214's to Pakistan was challenged and there was a debate in Germany. Earlier, there was never such a thing, the govt of the day decided whether to sell or not, this time, it has evoked a parliamentary response. Now whether the deal passed through or not is not the question, the question and point is why did such a hearing take place in the first place.
> 
> Same thing in the US, there are senators questioning selling of any military equipment to Pakistan, EDA or not. There would be even greater pressure on western nations to be hard on Pakistan, if it starts having the capability to target them. This does play a huge role. A declared Muslim nation, with nukes and ICBM's that is unstable and has cyclical bankruptcy issues.
> 
> ICBM's would change a lot of things IMO.


on the contrary, your analysis is flawed. true, an ICBM would cause a lot of tension, considering Pakistan is a muslim country. However, an ICBM would be a "game-changer", you would see less "do more" pressure on Pakistan. The US may actually get something done in afghanistan for change.

the decision to sell arms to Pakistan is always challenged, it's the same thing with almost every other country. The german govt. passed the deal with a large majority. It's interesting to see indians continuing to bring this up, when they forget that their pressure tactics had no effect on germany. The bottome line is, the germans are trying to enter Pakistan's defense industry. the U-214 is not the only thing they are offering. TKMS has also offered their MEKO frigates to Pakistan, with considerable technology transfer and production in Pakistan's shipyards. 

as for the US, that's not a good argument. Lobbies always challenge arms sales to Pakistan, nuclear weapons or not. What matters is whether the arms deal goes through, which usually does. again, the bottom line is, we are getting F-16's for free on EDA, and india is not.

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## Contrarian

My view is different. Lets leave it at that.


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## IceCold

IMO ICBM is a must thing for Pakistan. There are no permanent enemies and no permanent friends, however to attain an ICBM, we need to strengthen our economy first so that no latter economic threat can lead us to withdraw from our project. Moreover i am also of an opinion that as long as this government is in place, we will not see anything even closely related to an ICBM, reason we all know very well. Plus it would be better if instead of making an ICBM, we increase the range of our cruise missiles and bring it in the same league as TomaHawk and enable its use on our subs, perhaps a nuclear sub on lease from China can give us the capability to hit anywhere in the world if God for bid the time comes down to that.

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## jamal18

IceCold said:


> IMO ICBM is a must thing for Pakistan. There are no permanent enemies and no permanent friends, however to attain an ICBM, we need to strengthen our economy first so that no latter economic threat can lead us to withdraw from our project. Moreover i am also of an opinion that as long as this government is in place, we will not see anything even closely related to an ICBM, reason we all know very well. Plus it would be better if instead of making an ICBM, we increase the range of our cruise missiles and bring it in the same league as TomaHawk and enable its use on our subs, perhaps a nuclear sub on lease from China can give us the capability to hit anywhere in the world if God for bid the time comes down to that.



A good point, but cruise missiles and ICBM are different items all together.

An ICBM is more potent and Pakistan should make them; off course it would be political suicide to test one now. All the pieces should be ready, and put together when needed.

A nuclear power sub is also essential for power projection, I think it has to be indigenous; too much political liability for any other country to provide it.

Both the above are based on the political assumption that a conflict with the west is on the cards.


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## ARSENAL6

jamal18 said:


> A good point, but cruise missiles and ICBM are different items all together.
> 
> An ICBM is more potent and Pakistan should make them; off course it would be political suicide to test one now. All the pieces should be ready, and put together when needed.
> 
> *A nuclear power sub is also essential for power projection, *I think it has to be indigenous; too much political liability for any other country to provide it.
> 
> Both the above are based on the political assumption that a conflict with the west is on the cards.




Hmmm No doubt I am favour for ICMB on subs but isn't that an old way of projecting power around the world.
What I'm saying is having another way of flexing muscle rather than using missles.
If we did that not only will it cause confusion, lack of understanding of this new idea and fear towards our enemy but this will be our own our acheivement Like the US developed the Stealth technology, or the Germans developed the U-boat.


I do have faith on Pakistani Sciencist.

However on another note Pakistan need ICMB for Space exploration and stalight launch.

NB: I'm only saying


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## Arsalan

i think we do not need it for military need, i mean it is not practical!!

it may be there to prove our military muscel only!!

the main need for such a system for me may have been the satalite launch system as it have huge potential market!!


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## sweetboy

saadahmed said:


> Pakistan should develop ICBM but keep it secret or buy icbms from China .Anyway i think Pakistan should immediately develop MIRV which is far more important then ICBM because we can hit our enemies easily using ICBM and even if we get ICBM they will be intercepted way before they reach any NATO nations (In case we get into conflict with NATO/US).
> Thanks



if pakistan get this ICBM the we will use it only in the case of any threat/conflict.


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## nightcrawler

For the time being I don't think so that Pakistan is thinking of getting any ICBM We already have so much financial & political crisis to think about these MEGA projects & talking about Nuclear subs these are quiet risky ones history proves my point. We just can't gamble with the lives of our naval men!!
Talking about Indian ICBM you will fing the following document quiet comprehensive
U.S. ISRAEL COOPERATION WITH INDIA IN SPACE & missile.zip


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## paritosh

sweetboy said:


> if pakistan get this ICBM the we will use it only in the case of any threat/conflict.



it would have been an obvious fact...but coming from a pakistani...i'd say thank god!


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## Patriot

I don't think we need ICBM.First of all, do you want to fly the missile over whole world before it radiates hindu dhothis?Secondly our enemy is India and will always remain India.Another Enemy is Afghanistan but that threat can be neutralized without nukes.


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## paritosh

saadahmed said:


> I don't think we need ICBM.First of all, do you want to fly the missile over whole world before it radiates hindu dhothis?Secondly our enemy is India and will always remain India.Another Enemy is Afghanistan but that threat can be neutralized without nukes.



radiate hindu dhotis? haha...well be careful with the lighter fluid..your elaborate beard might catch fire...!(i hope you have a sense of humor)
about the ICBM...you are right...add israel to the list.america would have been another impractical enemy..though.


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## ARSENAL6

doesn't, having an ICMB gives the ability to go to space ?


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## Trisonics

ARSENAL6 said:


> Hmmm No doubt I am favour for ICMB on subs but isn't that an old way of projecting power around the world.
> *What I'm saying is having another way of flexing muscle* rather than using missles.


The best way to flex your muscle is to grow a stronger economy! Everything else falls into place. It will also wipe out the "rogue" tag that seems to associated with the Pakistan of today. I'm just a little surprised that some Pakistanis here are going overboard, The first thing Pakistan has to fix at a fast pace is it economy and world reputation. ICBMS, Space Tech, Nuking India, Attacking US, NATO, Afghanistan can come later!

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## Zarbe Momin

IF Pakistan develops missels having range 5000Km then Nuclear assets of Pakistan will be safe in future from Israeli attack and this chapter will closed for ever.


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## TOPGUN

Iam sure they are in works as we speak right now buliding along range missle !!


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## araz

TOPGUN said:


> Iam sure they are in works as we speak right now buliding along range missle !!



they may well be in the works but the question is whether it si worth our while to demonstrate the capability. In the current crisis, the answer has to be NO. We need to develop the technology to send our own satellites into space. We should do that. the other facet is MIRv. Work again may be on going but will never be publicized till it becomes necessary.
i agree that in our case our strongest defence would be a strong and buoyant economy based on sound principles and exhibiting a sustained growth. It is the only answer to a lot of our illsand miseries.
As an outsider, i see so many Indians wanting to go back to India to set up their own businesses. Unfortunately , i see no such trend amongst the pakistanis.it is not the lack of love for our country. it is just the conditions that do not allow us. I would love to see this situation change.
Araz

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## Luftwaffe

well as many other countries are trying to develop in home capabilities to sent satellites to space from home ground rather than asking US/Russia or Euro to send it i am sure Pakistan is well on its way working in a right course but we do not know the time frame as well as the influx of funds for such a project or program..rest assure Pakistan has to acquire the capabilities of sending satellites to space save millions of dollars as well as sending satellites for the surrounding peaceful neighboring countries in space saving $$ for them as well...Yes we must have a program for ICBM in place but we must wait for the economy to get better as well atleast we should start working on ICBMs towards entry level for know how before its too late in this field as well.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

We should test an ICBM to send a strong msg

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## Luftwaffe

mughaljee same situation is b/w noth and south Korea did US do anything about them but yeah if PPP is in power dang nothing can be done.


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## Jako

Pakistan should keep a icbm on the shelf right now(fully prepared to fly).........and test fire it at the time of tensions with any foreign country......testing such a device now may detoriate its relation with the americans and may arouse the possibilities of various sanctions.......thnx


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## nightcrawler

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> We should test an ICBM to send a strong msg



What do you mean by a _strong message_ I beileve that this be a message of hatred to Americans/ Israel or whatever. I hope you may not be talking that they treat us like Iranians because if they do our economy will be turned to MUD because we don't have influential Russian support in any aspect yet!! also we don't have that much oil & gas reserviors to make our economy a sustained one


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## IceCold

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> We should test an ICBM to send a strong msg



Before sending out a strong message of this type, we need to send one interms of our economy. We need to show them that we can and will sustain with or without your help. Secondly we need to get out of this mess that we are currently in, thanks to the WOT. Once we achieve the above two things, going ICBM will not be that hard.

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## XYON

An ICBM is 5000+ range projectile. Where do we fire it from and to for this suggested test?? Frankly my dear and at this stage we only need to be technology ready and do not really need an ICBM albeit our smaller range operational deployed projectiles already cover the length and breadth of India (which remains enemy No. 1 for such a purpose). So I do not see the logic behind this. However, I am all for the conductance of a Hydrogen Bomb Test by Pakistan in the Arabian Ocean designated site. Sooner the better!


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## aboutimeee

i totally disagree with pakistan having a ICBM.

First question is can we even build it? having the ability to have ICBM does not mean do we have capable scientist, you need more than scientist to build a weapon like that. 

currently USA, russia, china and france have working ICBMs and look at there GDP ranks
Rank Country GDP (millions of USD) 
1 United States 14,330,000
3 China (PRC) 4,222,000
5 France 2,978,000
8 Russia 1,757,000

49 Pakistan 160,900
Source: 2008 List by the CIA World Factbook

oh and im not an indian pretending to be pakistani and having a go at pakistani economy but we have to face the facts. 

Secondly do we even need one? i see ppl here say we need to send a strong message, wat message is this? ppl (rightly) complaining about USA carrying out drone attacks, well this is the way to make them stop? i can think of other ways of doing that cant u? remember USA is NOT carrying out these attack forcefully but with our governments approval, remember "we agreed to disagree" crap. if tomorrow Pakistan foreign minister says "if USA drone violate Pakistani air space we will shoot them down" simple and they will stop. we go and beg for LOANS from IMF and worldbank otherwise we might go bankrupt and buy American military hardware And receive billions of dollar of military and civilian aid from them and then you ppl are thinking of "putting them in our range".
ICBM will bring pakistan nothing but trouble, if you look at Japan, Germany, United Kingdom, Italy and lots more who both have resource and scientist to build ICBM but they don't. and a Muslim state with nukes and ICBM is the last thing this world would wants.
besides pakistan military has a minimum deterrent strategy and a 20% cost and 80% benefit policy. Slow and over long time development towards a civilian use rocket is fine because we need the technology for civilian space program but we should never test of formally acknowledge a ICBM.
If pakistan wants to enter the world stage and do Geo politics then we should make more friends, do more trade and strengthen our economy.


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## Arsalan

true, the only case for Pakistan going for a long range missile is to develop a satallite launch rocket!

we do not want it for offensive purpose but IF needed it can be turned into an ICBM effetively, Pakistan have the technology and infrastructure to develop it!!


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> Before sending out a strong message of this type, we need to send one interms of our economy. We need to show them that we can and will sustain with or without your help. Secondly we need to get out of this mess that we are currently in, thanks to the WOT. Once we achieve the above two things, going ICBM will not be that hard.



I say that we should take the money and also launch the ICBM. The US will Eventually pull its hands out .
But we must make sure that our missiles should be capable of reaching TELAVIV(ISRAEL)

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## IceCold

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> I say that we should take the money and also launch the ICBM. The US will Eventually pull its hands out .
> But we must make sure that our missiles should be capable of reaching TELAVIV(ISRAEL)



I think Israel comes in our missile range....correct me on this one. I remember at a time when there was a high chance Israel along with India were about to attack Pakistan's nuclear installations, Ghauri was fueled and was targeted towards Israel as a result of which an unusual visit by the Israeli FM to Pakistan occurred in which he assured that Israel does not have such intentions.


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## Arsalan

IceCold said:


> I think Israel comes in our missile range....correct me on this one. I remember at a time when there was a high chance Israel along with India were about to attack Pakistan's nuclear installations, Ghauri was fueled and was targeted towards Israel as a result of which an unusual visit by the Israeli FM to Pakistan occurred in which he assured that Israel does not have such intentions.




no the distance between pakistan and israel is 3355.79 km, the longest range missile we have are:
*ghauri II *with a range of 2300km with 1200 Kg payload and if the payload is decreased to 750 kg the range is increased to 2800Km

*saheen II* with range of 2500 but this can carry MIRV so if this MIRV is removed the range may well be increased but still it wont hit Israel!!

BUT the Shaheen-III and Ghauri-III in development with range of about 3500-4000 and 3000-3500Km if developed will be able to reach Israel!!
but i dont thhink the Americans will let us do that, as i have said i read somewhere about this issue

i hope it the post helps you!


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## MZUBAIR

I think ( I feel) Pakistan have already developed Shaheen-III and Ghauri-III with range of about 3500-4000 and 3000-3500Km


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> I think Israel comes in our missile range....correct me on this one. I remember at a time when there was a high chance Israel along with India were about to attack Pakistan's nuclear installations, Ghauri was fueled and was targeted towards Israel as a result of which an unusual visit by the Israeli FM to Pakistan occurred in which he assured that Israel does not have such intentions.



I think that there was some kind of plan like this but in the End the Indians backed out from it feeling that Pakistan would engage into a full scale war .

As far as i know that our Missiles cannot reach Israel .

We can use such kind of tests(ICBM tests) as a detterent or for changing the rules of engagement.


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## Arsalan

no they cannot, i have already posted this info but i guess that something went wrong and it is not here, atleast i cannot se that post so for your info here i post it again, sorry if it gets repeated!



> no the distance between pakistan and israel is 3355.79 km, the longest range missile we have are:
> ghauri II with a range of 2300km with 1200 Kg payload and if the payload is decreased to 750 kg the range is increased to 2800Km
> 
> saheen II with range of 2500 but this can carry MIRV so if this MIRV is removed the range may well be increased but still it wont hit Israel!!
> 
> BUT the Shaheen-III and Ghauri-III in development with range of about 3500-4000 and 3000-3500Km if developed will be able to reach Israel!!
> but i dont thhink the Americans will let us do that, as i have said i read somewhere about this issue
> 
> i hope it the post helps you!


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## sergente rehan

It's important for Pakistan to have ICBM program, maybe it's better to keep it secret until we need it against any serious threat. 

India is our N.1 enemy but don't forget the hiding enemy; Israel which is backing india and all anti-Muslim forces. It's Israel the Muslim world N.1 enemy and we must build the capability to target and destroy it, so it's better to have an ICBM.

Our possible enemies are also beyond us; our politicians. we must also get the capabilty to punish them....not like in the past when every politician do damage to Pakistan and simply get away without any problem, if they do corruption, it's same as like they betray Pakistan so they must be hang up! so the new ones think twice before doing anything against Pakistani interests...i think we don't need an ICBM to do all this?! 

For now Pakistan N.1 Goal is internal security and our economy. we must fix these 2 problems first.

once we have a Stable Economy it would be more easier for us to carry out any costly program like ICBM etc.


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## Zarbe Momin

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> I think that there was some kind of plan like this but in the End the Indians backed out from it feeling that Pakistan would engage into a full scale war .
> 
> As far as i know that our Missiles cannot reach Israel .
> 
> We can use such kind of tests(ICBM tests) as a detterent or for changing the rules of engagement.



Yes, Pakistan need missels with range 4000Km.


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## TOPGUN

I really think it is at work a long range missle or parhaps not who know's Pakistan is good at keeping secrets or likes to atleast ! but i really think right now the main focus should be on our economy second the wot cleaning up this terror from our nation even if we havent made a long range missle we need to do take care of more important things first this can always be done in due time when perhaps needed we have the tech if we want to do it iam sure we can


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## batmannow

pakistan , should go for ICBM 'Taimur' !
why?
why not, its a very important & very much needed step in this power dominated world of our's, pakistan should get the power to defend itself from any 1 of the veto powers , in case of thier any attack on pakistan, & in any condition.

it will be a confidence booster for the nation itself, it will going to give a insurance to the country that , no one can attack it !
sure , my vote goes to yes!


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## Arsalan

> *Posted by batmannow*
> Pakistan , should go for ICBM 'Taimur' !
> why?
> why not, its a very important & very much needed step in this power dominated world of our's, pakistan should get the power to defend itself from any 1 of the veto powers , in case of thier any attack on pakistan, & in any condition.
> 
> it will be a confidence booster for the nation itself, it will going to give a insurance to the country that , no one can attack it !
> sure , my vote goes to yes!



yes we do need it, as disscussed earlier, more to show off our military muscel! 

the technology is not a problem as with such high tech missiles already being produced with such command over them, we will Inshallah face no problems increasing the range,

the major issue or problem will be that it will/may draw up so much international pressure and in these desperate times of our economy, we surely dont want them to get angry!!

so for me, again, the option is to develp as space launch rocket, it will have the range, thrust and pay-load and by working on this tech, developing an ICBM will me months away!
in other words we must work on an ICBA undercover of a space rocket! 

what do you guys think of it

regards


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## TOPGUN

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes we do need it, as disscussed earlier, more to show off our military muscel!
> 
> the technology is not a problem as with such high tech missiles already being produced with such command over them, we will Inshallah face no problems increasing the range,
> 
> the major issue or problem will be that it will/may draw up so much international pressure and in these desperate times of our economy, we surely dont want them to get angry!!
> 
> so for me, again, the option is to develp as space launch rocket, it will have the range, thrust and pay-load and by working on this tech, developing an ICBM will me months away!
> in other words we must work on an ICBA undercover of a space rocket!
> 
> what do you guys think of it
> 
> regards



In the worlds eyes specialy the US's it will be looked at as like another North korean launch India will make noise forsure!


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## IceCold

batmannow said:


> pakistan , should go for ICBM 'Taimur' !
> why?
> why not, its a very important & very much needed step in this power dominated world of our's, pakistan should get the power to defend itself from any 1 of the veto powers , in case of thier any attack on pakistan, & in any condition.
> 
> it will be a confidence booster for the nation itself, it will going to give a insurance to the country that , no one can attack it !
> sure , my vote goes to yes!



Yup but we also need an economy to sustain such a project because once we have the US in range, we can't expect dollars to flow..right?
Also there are other projects which can give us the same capability without raising too much eyebrows for example an SLCM. Moreover an anti satellite capability is also a need of the hour. To blind an enemy from gathering real time intelligence can seriously hurt the offensive capability of someone such as the US who heavily rely on information gathering through satellite.


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## Arsalan

IceCold said:


> Yup but we also need an economy to sustain such a project because once we have the US in range, we can't expect dollars to flow..right?
> Also there are other projects which can give us the same capability without raising too much eyebrows for example an SLCM. Moreover an anti satellite capability is also a need of the hour. To blind an enemy from gathering real time intelligence can seriously hurt the offensive capability of someone such as the US who heavily rely on information gathering through satellite.




very true, again i will e,phasis on a space launch rocket, actually i keep on repeating this same point again and again because i feel that the satelite launch market have huge potential, even if we manage to get minimum share of private or foreign space market we can earn lots of Foreign Exchange that can then be used for further improvements.
if we develop this rocket technology, we can earn money which can be used for developing/buying guaidance system for anti-satelite or ICBM,

actually i have previously mentioned that the technology is not an issue, we are good at it, all we lack is money, so hy not get it from exploring the space market!!

regards

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## QADRI

i just read in today's JANG newpaper (13 August 2009) that Pakistan has prepared a missile with 7000 km range and it will be tested soon. 
Any info regarding this.?



> *Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile With 7,000 KM Rage War Head On Going*
> 
> PAKISTAN, ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is contemplating developing an Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) with a 7,000 km range to make the country&#8217;s defence impregnable and strengthen the armed forces of the country against any offence. The plan was evolved after successful test fire of Agni IV, the Indian ICBM system with a target range of 6000 km, which caused an imbalance of power in South Asia, extremely well informed defence sources told Business Recorder here on Wednesday.
> 
> Sources maintained that preparations are underway for the development of this long range ballistic missile and very soon it would be test fired. It would have the capacity to carry conventional and nuclear war heads. This missile, if successfully test fired, will be a milestone in the history of the country and a major achievement of scientists and engineers of Pakistan.
> 
> The possession of this ICBM not only will make Pakistan&#8217;s defence impregnable but will also help create a balance of power in the region, which defence analysts believe was disturbed by the Indian test firing of Agni IV missile with a range of 6000 kilometres.
> 
> This scribe contacted high officials of the Defence Ministry who claimed ignorance of this development and refused to comment on this matter. The Director General of the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), when contacted by this scribe also said that he was not aware of the development of the ICBM with a range of 7000 kilometre. It is pertinent to note that India recently test fired the 6000-kilometer Agni IV Missile with a capacity to hit and destroy targets deep in China.


http://www.apakistannews.com/inter-...le-with-7000-km-rage-war-head-on-going-133677

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## MZUBAIR

Yes, I already read this in Express news.(attatched)
As far as I know its already developed and known as Tippu, Scientists are preparing for test.

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## arihant

Can anyone give source, whether missile haws been developed (pending test), or it will be developed (Development plan). ?

English Source : http://aaj.tv/news/National/143945_detail.html


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## jalip

arihant said:


> Can anyone give source, whether missile haws been developed (pending test), or it will be developed (Development plan). ?
> 
> English Source : AAJ TV : Pakistan Ki Awaz



some thing is coming soon wait and see i think its already developed and news is leaked to check western response it will be in august or in Sep I

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## luoshan

What is the intended target for this missile?
The Aaj TV report says this missile is in response to India's Agni-IV missile, which is basically targeted towards Beijing and is yet to be tested. Right now India's longest range tested missile is Agni-III which has range of 3,500Kms.

How and where will this new ICBM be tested?


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## QADRI

MZUBAIR said:


> Yes, I already read this in Express news.(attatched)
> As far as I know its already developed and known as Tippu, Scientists are preparing for test.



this would be the great event for Pakistan...But sir i think Tipu was reported to have a range of 4500 to 6000 kms. Are you sure that this missile will be the Tipu...? if it is so then this would be HATF 9 hnnn?


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## QADRI

ISLAMABAD : Pakistan is contemplating developing an Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) with a 7,000 km range to make the country's defence impregnable and strengthen the armed forces of the country against any offence. The plan was evolved after successful test fire of Agni IV, the Indian ICBM system with a target range of 6000 km, which caused an imbalance of power in South Asia, extremely well informed defence sources told Business Recorder here on Wednesday.

Sources maintained that preparations are underway for the development of this long range ballistic missile and very soon it would be test fired. It would have the capacity to carry conventional and nuclear war heads. This missile, if successfully test fired, will be a milestone in the history of the country and a major achievement of scientists and engineers of Pakistan.

The possession of this ICBM not only will make Pakistan's defence impregnable but will also help create a balance of power in the region, which defence analysts believe was disturbed by the Indian test firing of Agni IV missile with a range of 6000 kilometres.

This scribe contacted high officials of the Defence Ministry who claimed ignorance of this development and refused to comment on this matter. The Director General of the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), when contacted by this scribe also said that he was not aware of the development of the ICBM with a range of 7000 kilometre. It is pertinent to note that India recently test fired the 6000-kilometer Agni IV Missile with a capacity to hit and destroy targets deep in China.


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## arihant

I still doubt if its still completed. Because most of the leak comes when the product is in production (missile easily takes 10 years to develop). There is news about Surya Missile capacity of around 8-12K Km. But Govt. of India denies about existence of such projects (might be secret).

So, lets wait for some good source or at least meaningful source which states, what is stage currently, when will be tested and when will be integrated.


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## mhacsan

arihant said:


> I still doubt if its still completed. Because most of the leak comes when the product is in production (missile easily takes 10 years to develop). There is news about Surya Missile capacity of around 8-12K Km. But Govt. of India denies about existence of such projects (might be secret).
> 
> So, lets wait for some good source or at least meaningful source which states, what is stage currently, when will be tested and when will be integrated.



8-12k is a good jump mate, good luck if india goes for longer n longer ranges pakistan i guess would have no choice but to counter it.

Reality on indian side depicts a bit of different picture dont u think so! dreaming is legal, no offense: here is a little clue:

JAtoRfc-8sw[/media] - Incredible Indian Missile test

On the other note i dont see any news on ICBM in todays-13-AUG-2009 Jang paper.

if it is true it must be due for 14h of August

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## Developereo

I am not sure why Pakistan needs an ICBM.

We are not going to take on Europe, Russia or the US.
Our existing missiles cover most of India anyway. The only new target would be Israel.

So what's the point of developing long range missiles? The only side benefit might be a satellite launch vehicle. That would be awesome!

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## arihant

hacsan said:


> 8-12k is a good jump mate, good luck if india goes for longer n longer ranges pakistan i guess would have no choice but to counter it.
> 
> Reality on indian side depicts a bit of different picture dont u think so! dreaming is legal, no offense: here is a little clue:
> 
> JAtoRfc-8sw[/media] - Incredible Indian Missile test
> 
> On the other note i dont see any news on ISBN in todays-13-AUG-2009 Jang paper.
> 
> if it is true it must be due for 14h of August



It's just program, there is no news that it is developed or not. Once it was mention on some security expert site. Whether its dream, reality or whatever, I don't know. Also, china has around 12K range missile (or underdevelopment) so no accuse to Indians for this.

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## arihant

Developereo said:


> I am not sure why Pakistan needs an ICBM.
> 
> We are not going to take on Europe, Russia or the US.
> Our existing missiles cover most of India anyway. The only new target would be Israel.
> 
> So what's the point of developing long range missiles? The only side benefit might be a satellite launch vehicle. That would be awesome!



But it will make sure that US never thinks wrong about Pakistan.


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## glomex

Developereo said:


> So what's the point of developing long range missiles? The only side benefit might be a satellite launch vehicle. That would be awesome!



Hmm....thats a good point....the earlier rockets were modified long range missiles....so this would be a great step forward towards a healthy space program....

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## mughaljee

Salam Brothers, 

Since long time, we did't heard any thing about a successful Missile test. 
Did our Quota finished ? Comments please.

Always regards


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## mughaljee

what kind of this Missile will be, Specially why we need this big range ?
Comments please.


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## ANDUBYLL

Why does Pakistan need an ICBM ?
Last time I checked, Fiji wasn't a threat to Pakistan


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## QADRI

hacsan said:


> 8-12k is a good jump mate, good luck if india goes for longer n longer ranges pakistan i guess would have no choice but to counter it.
> 
> Reality on indian side depicts a bit of different picture dont u think so! dreaming is legal, no offense: here is a little clue:
> 
> JAtoRfc-8sw[/media] - Incredible Indian Missile test
> 
> On the other note i dont see any news on ICBM in todays-13-AUG-2009 Jang paper.
> 
> if it is true it must be due for 14h of August




i am talking about daily jang newspaper multan.... you can find that news on the firth or sixth row from the top on the extreme right of the paper, third news from the main headline.

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## SBD-3

QADRI said:


> this would be the great event for Pakistan...But sir i think Tipu was reported to have a range of 4500 to 6000 kms. Are you sure that this missile will be the Tipu...? if it is so then this would be HATF 9 hnnn?


I think it is Taimur Missile it is speculated from a while now I mean if officials are talking of test fire very soon then it should be in final stages.


> Developereo
> We are not going to take on Europe, Russia or the US.
> Our existing missiles cover most of India anyway. The only new target would be Israel.


Isreal can be hit by Shaheen II no point of concern 
The benifit will be that it will help Pakistan in developing its ICBM defense shield and long range SAMs

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## dabong1

glomex said:


> Hmm....thats a good point....the earlier rockets were modified long range missiles....so this would be a great step forward towards a healthy space program....



Pakistan should have basic health and education before wasting money on a space programme.


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## paritosh

this missile is meant for Israel I guess....is Pakistan actually interested in picking up a fight with Israel?
what good would that do?
it would be a blunder to pick-up a premature fight...Israel enjoys a healthy Chinese support...you'd compromise a lot of things....


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## glomex

dabong1 said:


> Pakistan should have basic health and education for all before wasting money on a space programme.



There are many things that Pakistan and India should not waste money on......


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## Imran Khan

now its waste of money? what abut nukes subs air craft carerr and MRCA?.its great news for us its threat our friends who help india in any case what abut mosscow tel aviv after this test they never inter in our conflict .if they help india like 71 we will wipe them also.this missile give pakistan an international power of on step.

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## Skywalker

I guess this missile will be used as SLVs. We have different strategy then Indians when it comes to leaking the info to public.

Indians use this as propaganda, but we only leak it to see the reaction of other countries and there is also a possibility that this has already been tested, since independence day is just round the corner they might wanna give some good moral boosting news to the nation.

But irrespective of the facts or nature of this missile we need an SLV and it would be a giant leap forward.

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## SBD-3

paritosh said:


> this missile is meant for Israel I guess....is


how many times will i have to say that Tel Aviv is not 7000 KMs away from islamabad 
here is the exact difference
3594.9 KMs

Distance from Islamabad, Pakistan | Islamabad distance calculator


> Pakistan actually interested in picking up a fight with Israel?
> what good would that do?
> it would be a blunder to pick-up a premature fight...Israel enjoys a healthy Chinese support...you'd compromise a lot of things....


This could also means that if Israel interferes in Pakistan its gonna lose the support of China!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
think rationally plz

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## SBD-3

imran khan said:


> i know why our indian brothers  because of there  now go to sleep.say to your media make this news as rising great pakistani power . as if its indian test they will do
> 
> dream of super power now



lolz but one thing is for sure India is taking full advantage of its economy in its defense

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## Imran Khan

hasnain0099 said:


> lolz but one thing is for sure India is taking full advantage of its economy in its defense



pakistan is taking full advantige of pakistani brain in our defence.

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## glomex

hasnain0099 said:


> lolz but one thing is for sure India is taking full advantage of its economy in its defense



its the other way around brother....Your commerce grows...trade grows...trade channels grow...so your defense expenditure grows to protect those trade routes and your trade assets....

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## EagleEyes

Its a challenge for Pakistan, but i think it is a challenge that we all Pakistanis want to be completed.

The improvement in the nuclear program is needed for Pakistan to be a heavy force in the region. It is also important to understand that nuclear weapons are Pakistan's last defense, and a defense that is so potent.

Next generation fighter development.
Nuclear submarines
Long range nuclear missiles
Space program

Are just a few areas where Pakistan needs to get its edge, and it needs that edge for a powerful Pakistan.

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## glomex

WebMaster said:


> Its a challenge for Pakistan, but i think it is a challenge that we all Pakistanis want to be completed.
> 
> The improvement in the nuclear program is needed for Pakistan to be a heavy force in the region. It is also important to understand that nuclear weapons are Pakistan's last defense, and a defense that is so potent.
> 
> Next generation fighter development.
> Nuclear submarines
> Long range nuclear missiles
> Space program
> 
> Are just a few areas where Pakistan needs to get its edge, and it needs that edge for a powerful Pakistan.



Exaclty...this is required ...and this can be achieved with focussed resources on research and developement which I believe Pakistan is allready working upon......


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## dabong1

imran khan said:


> now its waste of money? what abut nukes subs air craft carerr and MRCA?.its great news for us its threat our friends who help india in any case what abut mosscow tel aviv after this test they never inter in our conflict .if they help india like 71 we will wipe them also.this missile give pakistan an international power of on step.



The govt of pakistan said once we have nukes we will be secure and safe and then we can spend on the people.......now we have to go into space and spend more on missiles and then we are safe,it never ends.
Education and health is what will make pakistan strong and no doubt pakistan has to have a strong defence sector but not at the cost of a weak education-health sector.
The russians had more weapons then we did but collapsed from no external attack but from with in.


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## graphican

mughaljee said:


> what kind of this Missile will be, Specially why we need this big range ?
> Comments please.



Before conquering Makkah, Holy Prophet PBUH ordered to destroy Jewish Castle of Khyber, which was center of conspiracies and evils against Muslims. When Khyber was conquered, Makkah was conquered without battle. No wonder we see Israel behind most of the conflicts that Muslim world has today and they are opening new windows of terrorism in Baluchistan and FATA not against Pakistan, but against another Muslim State. So we have our reason to destroy Israel and return the piece of land which originally belongs to people of Palestine.

We find Israeil's F16s eager to fly towards us from Indian soils, their asserts trying to penetrate in our politics, society and at anchor points. We find Israelis funding TTP and BLA in Pakistan. So they are the heart of conspiracy even after after 1400 years. Why they are doing so? Let me share my understanding here. 

True followers of Judah (the original Jews) know they are asked to live scattered among other nations. But most of the Jews have deviated from their original teachings (which call themselves Zionists) and they await Dajjal (Antichrists) for their time of glory and prosperity. Zionists know Dajjal would not appear unless state of Israel would exist between two rivers: Nile and Euphrates as the boundaries of state of Israel (and this is what they also represent in their flag: a 6 corner star representing "holy land" and two blue borders at the top and bottom). To "awake" Dajjal, Zionists need to expand Israeli's boundaries which they have been expanding slowly and gradually.. but they need to conquer state of Egypt and other Muslim area upto the Euphrates and that would need military power and no resistance against them. No wonder Israel is one of the largest Military hardware manufacturer and spends billions of dollars to support their asserts in the Arab World. Now Arabs are sheep to Zionists and they know the only states that could rise against them could be Iraq, Iran and Pakistan. After destroying Iraq, there remain two "threats" to them: Iran and Pakistan. God Forbid God Forbid God Forbid if they are successful in incapacitating Pakistan and Iran, Israel would expand their borders so Dajjal would arrive and their time of Glory as an Nation would start. 

This is where our Holy Prophet PBUH said "I feel breez coming from Hind" and Ahadith of Ghawae-Hind become important. Pakistan was given to us on 27th of Ramdan, the best time of the year and we see what service God has kept for this Nation to offer. Pakistan is a sacred land. See what Sufia Akram tell you about this. See what Nemat-Ullah-Shah-Wali has predicted, understand what Prophet Muhamad PBUH ment when he waid "I feel breez coming from Hind".

So this is where we need a long range missile that could hit Israel at their heart and destroy them if they continued their games with our homeland, Pakistan and Muslim Ummah.

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## SBD-3

WebMaster said:


> Its a challenge for Pakistan, but i think it is a challenge that we all Pakistanis want to be completed.
> 
> The improvement in the nuclear program is needed for Pakistan to be a heavy force in the region. It is also important to understand that nuclear weapons are Pakistan's last defense, and a defense that is so potent.
> 
> Next generation fighter development.
> Nuclear submarines
> Long range nuclear missiles
> Space program
> 
> Are just a few areas where Pakistan needs to get its edge, and it needs that edge for a powerful Pakistan.



Sir with due regards, I would like to propose few modifications

Next generation fighter development. (Sure why not)
Nuclear submarines. (NO! built silent and CM capable subs in large numbers)
Long range nuclear missiles (NO need.Take them as development base for ICBM defense shield.)
Space program.Definatly


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## EagleEyes

dabong1 said:


> The govt of pakistan said once we have nukes we will be secure and safe and then we can spend on the people.......now we have to go into space and spend more on missiles and then we are safe,it never ends.
> Education and health is what will make pakistan strong and no doubt pakistan has to have a strong defence sector but not at the cost of a weak education-health sector.
> The russians had more weapons then we did but collapsed from no external attack but from with in.



Actually we are spending less and less than the Indians. We are also spending less in education. All in all its all good. You cannot completely stop the developments. Both things need to continue. I am all in for increase in education!


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## The Patriot

I believe Pakistan has developed this missile. its just waiting for appropriate time and wants to see reaction. The test would go well in Europe, Israel And the US. As they would come under its range. But Pakistan needs such missiles to protect itself from any threat coming from any corner. Its time we should not be India-centric only. I believe we can deal with India. We have bigger threats now. But using India as an excuse for our own defense developments is a good tactic.


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## EagleEyes

We can already reach Israel. In my opinion, Israel is hardly a threat to Pakistan. Nothing can be said about the future threats however. So it is great to see some new developments.

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## greatsequence

Having something for Israel makes a lot of sense but I am not sure about having a range of 7000Km unless some decision makers are thinking same as an ordinary pakistani that US is a bigger threat than India.

Anyway something from the missile sector was due and we finally see an ICBM. Personally I would have liked some Air to Air missile rather than an ICBM.

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## graphican

WebMaster said:


> We can already reach Israel. In my opinion, Israel is hardly a threat to Pakistan. Nothing can be said about the future threats however. So it is great to see some new developments.



Israel is kind of a landmine for Pakistan. It would never pose direct threat to us as they know result could be devastating for them. They are busy digging holes, softening grounds and installing their asserts in Pakistan with the help of India. After all who is financing TTP and BLA and giving them the un-traceable communication equipment. An unexposed enemy is dangerous then the one you already know and Israel knows if there could be any threat to their existence ever, it would be from Iran or Pakistan.. rest have been "leveled" already. So we need to be aware that of these aspects and stay prepared for any mis-adventure on the part of Israel.


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## EagleEyes

greatsequence said:


> Having something for Israel makes a lot of sense but I am not sure about having a range of 7000Km unless some decision makers are thinking same as an ordinary pakistani that US is a bigger threat than India.
> 
> Anyway something from the missile sector was due and we finally see an ICBM. Personally I would have liked some Air to Air missile rather than an ICBM.



 SD-10 is your answer.


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## greatsequence

But SD-10 is a pure Chinese product and we will be buying it from china not producing it.


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## paritosh

hasnain0099 said:


> how many times will i have to say that Tel Aviv is not 7000 KMs away from islamabad
> here is the exact difference
> 3594.9 KMs


what is the need of this missile then?there aren't any known enemies in a radius>5000kms...


> This could also means that if Israel interferes in Pakistan its gonna lose the support of China!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> think rationally plz


China wouldn't close a market in a hot-spot.the Israelis get arms from America and China...while the Arab nations get arms from Russia...China would neither support Pakistan nor Israel...contingency imports would suffer since now most of your weapons are of chinese make.


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## paritosh

Skywalker said:


> I guess this missile will be used as SLVs. We have different strategy then Indians when it comes to leaking the info to public.
> 
> Indians use this as propaganda, but we only leak it to see the reaction of other countries and there is also a possibility that this has already been tested, since independence day is just round the corner they might wanna give some good moral boosting news to the nation.
> 
> But irrespective of the facts or nature of this missile we need an SLV and it would be a giant leap forward.



We have long had the capability to make an ICBM from our GSLV program...yet we9the govt. or DRDO or any of the COSs) haven't publicly stated a willingness to pursue such a program.
The cost is very high...USA and the EU have a dozen watchdog organizations and agencies that monitor the WMD programs and missile programs of all nations...our getting into such a program would've menat no nuke deal and other weapon trade with the USA.
Pakistan is even more dependent on the Americans.they surely would notice.


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## hazi

I think this is going to be a space launch vehicle because Pakistani scientists and engineers, under the supervision of Chinese scientists, are working in the PAKSAT-IR in China. which may be launched by a pakistani made slv.


But these are just rumours i have read on a couple of articles on the net.


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## SBD-3

hazi said:


> I think this is going to be a space launch vehicle because Pakistani scientists and engineers, under the supervision of Chinese scientists, are working in the PAKSAT-IR in China. which may be launched by a pakistani made slv.
> 
> 
> But these are just rumours i have read on a couple of articles on the net.



I think PakSat-IR is already due for launch


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## BATMAN

> Chinese scientists, are working in the PAKSAT-IR in China


I remember PAKSAT-1 was awarded to canadian company by Musharraf govt.
*Pakistan selects Telesat for procurement and launch of Paksat 1-R satellite*


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## IceCold

I dont know how much credible the news really is but i saw it yesterday on DIN news channel but i could not find the news on their website. Anyways one could assume that the purpose of the missile to move our SLV project ahead but then again why need to protay as a missile, i mean we can easily call it for a space program and avoid unnecessary attention and raising of eyebrows. Also there was another news some time back about 35%cut in our nuclear and missile program, i doubt if we can pull this one off with such a low budget not to forget who's running the government these days, i doubt he will do anything that will agitate the americans at this point.

My 2 cents.

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## TOPGUN

Hope the news is true and in works!


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## QADRI

hasnain0099 said:


> I think PakSat-IR is already due for launch



Plz. tell me about PakSat-IR.. and its purpose ?


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## SBD-3

IceCold said:


> I dont know how much credible the news really is but i saw it yesterday on DIN news channel but i could not find the news on their website. Anyways one could assume that the purpose of the missile to move our SLV project ahead but then again why need to protay as a missile, i mean we can easily call it for a space program and avoid unnecessary attention and raising of eyebrows. Also there was another news some time back about 35%cut in our nuclear and missile program, i doubt if we can pull this one off with such a low budget not to forget who's running the government these days, i doubt he will do anything that will agitate the americans at this point.
> 
> My 2 cents.


one thing is for sure Jung is the only news paper which breaks out such news
I mean i can still remeber a few months back there was a news on jung that Pakistan's Nuke Program was saved by None other but a deceived in love girl whose boy friend was a spy installed by Russia in Kahota.But she leaked out the secret because she wanted to avenge him  Pethatic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
why would Pakistan need to go for ICBM????? just because India is making it? and trust me jang is a crap i dont read it i rather prefer far less crappy express.


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## hazi

But it is also reported on aaj


link: AAJ TV : Pakistan Ki Awaz


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## graphican

hasnain0099 said:


> one thing is for sure Jung is the only news paper which breaks out such news
> I mean i can still remeber a few months back there was a news on jung that Pakistan's Nuke Program was saved by None other but a deceived in love girl whose boy friend was a spy installed by Russia in Kahota.But she leaked out the secret because she wanted to avenge him  Pethatic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> why would Pakistan need to go for ICBM????? just because India is making it? and trust me jang is a crap i dont read it i rather prefer far less crappy express.



Jang Group and its patriotism with the country is a question after they produced fabricated Video about Qassab. See they run Voice of America and I think only the producer used to watch it but still aired on Prime Time. NEWS of ICBM "leaked" out by Jang Group might be another effort to destabilize the country by presenting Pakistan as a hostile state for the west. 

Another reason could be yet another IDIOTIC attempt by our Government. This government is standing on one leg and knows what is the level of hate for them in Public. Its a rare chance but may be they are trying to use this "achievement" (which might not be ready) of Pakistan and gain few points in their favor. This government is considered a US puppet and such NEWS would dilute this image.

Yet another reason could be a well thought well calculated message for the USA and allies. Zardari waits to wash dirty underwear of Americans to appease them but its a different story between Army of the two Nations. Armies of the two country are working in collaboration which is nothing more than "tied together inspite of hating each other". Pakistan is US/NATO supply line and we use this aspect to our advantage whenever we can. May be its a loud thinking but Inter Continental Ballistic Missile might be one such card which Pakistan is trying use for its advantage.

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## hazi

By the end of 2011, Pakistan plans to replace PAKSAT-1 with a new high-tech powered communication satellite, PAKSAT-1R, which will be manufactured exclusively for Pakistan in People's Republic of China. The satellite will support all conventional and modern Fixed Satellite Service (FSS) applications. The satellite will have a total of up to 30 transponders: 18 in Ku-band and 12 in C-band. To ensure high degree of reliability / availability of the system, two (02) fully redundant Satellite Ground Control Stations (SGCS) would be established in Karachi and Lahore, one to act as the Main and the other as Backup respectively


The satellite is indigenously being developed by Pakistan's SUPARCO scientists. SUPARCO also stated that Pakistani scientists and engineers, under the supervision of Chinese scientists, are working in the PAKSAT-IR in China


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## advaita

StealthQL-707PK said:


> This must be great news for our newest developments in our scientists. Congratulations!
> 
> We have already Shaheen II which is good enough on Zionist state (I doubt, it will be threat to Pakistan but must prepared). If there is 7000KM longe range missile, we push button to fire it roarly to the further away to US or Russia or some Europe, they have capable to prevent it with *Anti-ballastic missiles system* (missile defence shield).
> 
> i.e- Arrow of Israel, Patriot of US, S-400 of Russia.
> 
> What is useful of 7000KM long range missiles? MIRV including?



If Shaheen is good enough for Zion and India. Then Its only usefulness (ICBM+MIRV) would be to show to the world that the Indians are living in a dangerous neighbourhood.

Keep it up.

And BTW, Happy B.Day in advance. May god bless us all.


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## Arsalan

hazi said:


> But it is also reported on aaj
> 
> 
> link: AAJ TV : Pakistan Ki Awaz




well friend, AAJ belongs to Jang group of newspapers!! 
infact The News, Geo and AAJ are all part of the Jang Group,,,

regards!


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## Arsalan

more of a spectulation at the moment then any real news!!
if it turns out to be true, one can point to many goods that it cac bring to us if we think on it. but, first let us get confirmed and it is better to start the debat on it merits and edmerits after this!!
i hope you guys agree!

regards!


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## batmannow

Developereo said:


> I am not sure why Pakistan needs an ICBM.
> 
> We are not going to take on Europe, Russia or the US.
> Our existing missiles cover most of India anyway. The only new target would be Israel.
> 
> So what's the point of developing long range missiles? The only side benefit might be a satellite launch vehicle. That would be awesome!



clear your mind ,pakistan is ready to take on , any one, who ever he , could be to harm pakistan.. any one wiether it is(Europe, Russia or the US).


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## batmannow

arsalanaslam123 said:


> more of a spectulation at the moment then any real news!!
> if it turns out to be true, one can point to many goods that it cac bring to us if we think on it. but, first let us get confirmed and it is better to start the debat on it merits and edmerits after this!!
> i hope you guys agree!
> 
> regards!



i guss, they want to keep the things quiet as much as posible for now!


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## Righteous_Fire

ICBM: Pakistan intercontinental missile underway | Pakistan Daily



According to sources, the intercontinental missile has a range of 7000 kilometres and is capable of hitting its target falling within its range. The missile can contain nuclear as well as traditional warheads. The missile has been termed a significant milestone for the defence of the country and is believed to strengthen the defence. According to sources, the missile would soon be test fired.

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## A1Kaid

Wow 7,000 km (4,349 miles)...

If this is true then this would categorize this missile as an ICBM.

Consider this the distance from NY City to San Francisco is 4,828 Km ( or 3,000 miles) (the width of the US)....

This missile can reach (proximity and close est.) Europe, Moscow, Russia, Israel, Japan, West Africa, and other corners of the Earth. Great technological attainment/achievement by Pakistan.

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## Righteous_Fire

A1Kaid said:


> Wow 7,000 miles...



 7,000 *kilometers*


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## A1Kaid

righteous_fire said:


> 7,000 *kilometers*



I already know in fact I corrected my mistake (within seconds) and included the conversions...


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## Righteous_Fire

A1Kaid said:


> I already know in fact I corrected my mistake (within seconds) and included the conversions...



Its cool Bro! 

PS: Guess, I'm a fast typing dude then


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## Developereo

This was discussed at length in a different thread that ICBMs would be a net-negative for Pakistan. If we can hit Europe, they would be less likely to help us militarily. And it might bring sanctions from US -- no military sales unless they are COIN related.


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## graphican

I think few recent moves of India that it increased its defense budget 33% and got Nuclear Submarine + Anti Submarine Aircrafts has asked Paksitan to do something "amaizing" for its countrymen.. or it is a subliminal message to CIA or God knows what but its not our requirement to go for ICBMs and raise eyebrows of western world without any reason. I remember an interview with Sir Samar Mubarik Mand and the same question of ICBM was asked to him and he replied "We are not in need of such missile but have capacity to build if needed". May be Pakistan is feeling some need to show-off its control over technology etc. Other than that, I really dont see a reason why Pakistan would want to have an ICBM which would cost millions of dollars and its production would be equally costly and burden upon our counted budget. We dont have anybody to hit sitting 7000KM away. Can somebody enlighten me please??


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## ARSENAL6

I echos Graphicans post that ICBM will be too expensive for Pakistan
as military platform to launch nuclear strikes. and that Pakistan doesn't have a real enemy at 4000 miles unless Israel starts acting funny.

the only Obvious reason i can think of is that Pakistan is going for space and launching Satatlights which is good news.

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## Righteous_Fire

The Pakistani space program was long due but with impending sanctions in the past and cutting of funds, it got waylaid many times. However, the ability was always present and now this ICBM is a step towards that capability.


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## luoshan

A1Kaid said:


> Wow 7,000 km (4,349 miles)...
> 
> 
> This missile can reach (proximity and close est.) Europe, Moscow, Russia, Israel, Japan, West Africa, and other corners of the Earth. Great technological attainment/achievement by Pakistan.



This means Beijing, Tianjin, Guangzhou and Shanghai will be within the range of this missile. I wonder how the Chinese will react to this. One more country with capability to point nuclear tipped missiles at it, will not be a happy prospect for the Chinese. International friendships and alliances are temporary. Friends and enemies keep changing fast. Nothing is permanent except self-serving national interests.


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## luoshan

I wonder how is Pakistan going to test this missile. The territory of Pakistan is not 7000Kms long. The missile has to be flown over Arabian sea and Indian ocean. To evaluate the performance of the missile it has to be continuously tracked over its flight path, which means Pakistani naval ships have to be positioned all over the Arabian sea and Indian ocean.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

luoshan said:


> This means Beijing, Tianjin, Guangzhou and Shanghai will be within the range of this missile. I wonder how the Chinese will react to this. One more country with capability to point nuclear tipped missiles at it, will not be a happy prospect for the Chinese. International friendships and alliances are temporary. Things change pretty fast in international scenario. Only self-serving national interests are permanent.



Don't worry about us Chinese losing sleep, my Hindu friend. Honestly, I don't worry at all. Why should Chinese people fear/distrust Pakistanis?! They are our faithful friends. Also both India's and Pakistan's nukes are 20-30 kt, where as China's are 10+ Mt. Furthermore, just like USA and Russia we have THOUSANDS of them that we can "rain in" on any continent.  Pakistan & China will remain friends longer than you can ever imagine! 

By the way, when will you change your name from Chinese-sounding to Hindu-sounding?! Because deceiving others is not a nice thing.

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## A1Kaid

luoshan said:


> Nothing is permanent except self-serving national interests.





Besides your obvious stupid remarks, I will say this it's in both Pakistan's and China's "national interest" to prevent Indian hegemony and to contain India. That too will most likely be permanent.

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## Brahm0s

graphican said:


> Israel is kind of a landmine for Pakistan. It would never pose direct threat to us as they know result could be devastating for them. They are busy digging holes, softening grounds and installing their asserts in Pakistan with the help of India. After all who is financing TTP and BLA and giving them the un-traceable communication equipment. An unexposed enemy is dangerous then the one you already know and Israel knows if there could be any threat to their existence ever, it would be from Iran or Pakistan.. rest have been "leveled" already. So we need to be aware that of these aspects and stay prepared for any mis-adventure on the part of Israel.



Friend you mean war between pakistan and israel would end israel and america would eat popcorn and watch it? i think pakistan wont even know what came and hit them untill its too late. if pakistan even dare to take on israel than thats it. That would be begning of 'end' of pakistan my friend. Anyway you are taking israel too much lightly (due to size of it). Let us know what pakistan got and compare it to israel. Am sure you would know the 'huge' difference.

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## Brahm0s

A1Kaid said:


> Besides your obvious stupid remarks, I will say this it's in both Pakistan's and China's "national interest" to prevent Indian hegemony and to contain India. That too will most likely be permanent.



so does its india + america + japan's intrest to contain pak-china.


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## MZUBAIR

jalip said:


> some thing is coming soon wait and see i think its already developed and news is leaked to check western response it will be in august or in Sep I



Yes, I guess its already developed. Pakistan is announcing initiation of its development coz of strategical policy............I believe that, it will be fired within 2 to 3 weeks.


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## MZUBAIR

arihant said:


> But it will make sure that US never thinks wrong about Pakistan.



Y they will think wrong abt Pakistan?


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## MZUBAIR

Developereo said:


> This was discussed at length in a different thread that ICBMs would be a net-negative for Pakistan. If we can hit Europe, they would be less likely to help us militarily. And it might bring sanctions from US -- no military sales unless they are COIN related.



Y europe will think like that? There is no threat for europe or any other cuntry. Its just enhancment of missel technology


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## MZUBAIR

luoshan said:


> This means Beijing, Tianjin, Guangzhou and Shanghai will be within the range of this missile. I wonder how the Chinese will react to this. One more country with capability to point nuclear tipped missiles at it, will not be a happy prospect for the Chinese. International friendships and alliances are temporary. Friends and enemies keep changing fast. Nothing is permanent except self-serving national interests.



Y china will be worried.............China is already cooperatin with us to enahnce missel technology. This missile could be for one step ahead for Satellite killer.

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## LiberalPakistani

I'm so exicted Inshallah will have the ICBM hats off to Pakistan Army congrats all

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## MZUBAIR

Brahm0s said:


> so does its india + america + japan's intrest to contain pak-china.



Its only India.

America already suppoted Pakistan in cruise technology. We build them b4 India with the cooperation of USA.

USA n Pakistan together fighting against terrorism.  

Japan has no concern wt so ever Pak will develop. We have very good relations with them.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

MZUBAIR said:


> Its only India.
> 
> America already suppoted Pakistan in cruise technology. We build them b4 India with the cooperation of USA.
> 
> USA n Pakistan together fighting against terrorism.
> 
> Japan has no concern wt so ever Pak will develop. We have very good relations with them.



Also concerning Japan, the youth and nearly all adults don't want war with China or any Asian nation -- furthermore, more and more Japanese are realizing their misjudgement (i.e. realizing the "special treatment" Honorary Whites receive ain't friendly). Japan's population is easy to understand (for me). The very small numbers of old farts that look condescending towards other Asians is shrinking..... especially with the rise of China to its natural place, Japanese are re-learning their rightful place as partners of Asia (rather than as Honorary Whites).

Regarding India, they are Asians as well. The sooner they realize a united Asia is best for themselves as well a the world, the better off. 

Concerning USA, they are in no position for another war (unless they want Armageddon). The world is too inter-connected and inter-dependent, that any conflict will mean we ALL suffer.

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## A1Kaid

Brahm0s said:


> so does its india + america + japan's intrest to contain pak-china.




It is not in Japan's interest to contain Pakistan. However it is in Russia's, China's, Iran's, Pakistan's and other SCO/Asian countries to contain US. Both Iran and Pakistan can effectively contain Israel, and Pakistan and China and considering China's buildup of Bangladesh's defence India will be contained and constricted at trilateral points (Pakistan to west, China to North, Bangladesh to East). 

This ICBM allows Pakistan to challenge and confront future threats, Pakistan is enhancing it's missile projection capability.

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## SinoIndusFriendship

A1Kaid said:


> It is not in Japan's interest to contain Pakistan. However it is in Russia's, China's, Iran's, Pakistan's and other SCO/Asian countries to contain US. Both Iran and Pakistan can effectively contain Israel, and Pakistan and China and considering China's buildup of Bangladesh's defence India will be contained and constricted at trilateral points (Pakistan to west, China to North, Bangladesh to East).
> 
> This ICBM allows Pakistan to challenge and confront future threats, Pakistan is enhancing it's missile projection capability.



Not to mention with Bharat's latest moves, they made more enemies in the East (namely North Korea & Myanmar). It's in India's interests to join Asia, not "contain" Asia.

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## A1Kaid

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Not to mention with Bharat's latest moves, they made more enemies in the East (namely North Korea & Myanmar). It's in India's interests to join Asia, not "contain" Asia.



Yes but there is little military harm North Korea can do to India directly, unless North Korea launches it's ICBM's at India, though considering North Korea's ICBM supply is limited their ICBM's are US-specific. Though Myanmar on the other hand could reinforce Bangladesh at China's bequest and this could prove to be great difficulty for the Indians, that they are being double-teamed on their right flank.


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## A1Kaid

By the way it is great timing that Pakistan acquired ICBM's on it's 62nd independence day.


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## applesauce

A1Kaid said:


> Yes but there is little military harm North Korea can do to India directly, unless North Korea launches it's ICBM's at India, though considering North Korea's ICBM supply is limited their ICBM's are US-specific. Though Myanmar on the other hand could reinforce Bangladesh at China's bequest and this could prove to be great difficulty for the Indians, that they are being double-teamed on their right flank.



north korea dont have icbms, the last few times they tested long ranged missles all failed... as far as sny knows they cant even hit hawaii let alone main land usa


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## A1Kaid

applesauce said:


> north korea dont have icbms, the last few times they tested long ranged missles all failed... as far as sny knows they cant even hit hawaii let alone main land usa



North Korea has the Taep&#8217;o-dong-2 ICBM missile.



Missiles: Range (Km)
Taep&#8217;o-dong-2, 2A, 2B (6) 6,400-6,700 
Taep&#8217;o-dong-2A > 7,000 
Taep&#8217;o-dong-2A 8,000-12,000 
Taep&#8217;o-dong-2C/3 9,976-14,964 

Source: Taep'o-dong 2 (TD-2) - North Korea

The range of the Taep&#8217;o-dong-2 missile does categorize it as an ICBM, officially any missile with a range of 5,000+ Km is considered an ICBM.


Please read below,



> "*A declassified CIA report to the Congress estimated that North Korea would require 10-15 years to develop an ICBM capable of delivering a chemical, biological, or nuclear warhead*. However, 1998 Rumsfeld report concluded that
> 
> "There is evidence that North Korea is working hard on the Taep'o-dong 2 (TD-2) ballistic missile. The status of the system's development cannot be determined precisely.* Nevertheless, the ballistic missile test infrastructure in North Korea is well developed*. Once the system is assessed to be ready, a test flight could be conducted within six months of a decision to do so. If North Korea judged the test to be a success, the TD-2 could be deployed rapidly. It is unlikely the U.S. would know of such a decision much before the missile was launched. *This missile could reach major cities and military bases in Alaska and the smaller, westernmost islands in the Hawaiian chain. Light-weight variations of the TD-2 could fly as far as 10,000 km, placing at risk western U.S. territory in an arc extending northwest from phoenix, Arizona, to Madison, Wisconsin. These variants of the TD-2 would require additional time to develop and would likely require an additional flight test.*"



Source: Taep'o-dong 2 (TD-2) - North Korea

I understand some of their tests failed, but you can bet the N.Korean military scientist are making progress and are learning from their mistakes.


I think you should reevaluate your assessment on North Korea's ICBM capability...

*Edit: Please visit this source:
*

"*North Korea's satellite claim means ICBM threat is real at last*"

http://www.upi.com/news/issueofthed...BM-threat-is-real-at-last/UPI-13811235497413/


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## A1Kaid

Everybody complains Pakistan is always "reactive" to threats, well this time Pakistan is "proactive" in meeting future threats. I fully agree, acquiring ICBM's was a great step forward in Pakistan confronting future threats and enhancing it's missile projection capability.

I believe one of the major motives of Pakistan attaining an ICBM is to counter contemporary and certainly future threats. Considering the historical animosity between Pakistan and Israel, this ICBM will certainly allow Pakistan to counter any Indo-Israeli strikes on Pakistan has had been attempted in the past, by Pakistan making direct strikes on Israeli territory.

Consider the horrible tragedy and genocide of Bosnia by Serbians, Croats, and other Christian ethnic groups in the 1990's. If Pakistan had possessed this ICBM we could have launched the ICBM at Serbia and help protect our Bosnian brothers and friends by striking Serbia. Yes, this ICBM of 7,000km can reach SE Europe and especially the Balkan region, this would have certainly come in handy in the future...

Pakistan is flexing it's muscles and projecting it's missile range, this is a good step in our military affairs and development.

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## toxic_pus

Well if it is indeed an effort at space launching, I would say that Pakistan is doing it wrong. It is easier to masquerade an ICBM project as space program because this window dressing enables the entire research relating to ICBM, to be done outside the scope of prying eyes and ears. Why would Pakistan want to do it the other way round. Declare a space program as ICBM project and draw unnecessary attention, and in the process create unnecessary flutter among powers that be? 

So either it is a genuine ICBM project, which in itself may prove to be diplomatically costly, or it is just for domestic consumption. Or the report itself is not true.


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## moha199

arihant said:


> I still doubt if its still completed. Because most of the leak comes when the product is in production (missile easily takes 10 years to develop). There is news about Surya Missile capacity of around 8-12K Km. But Govt. of India denies about existence of such projects (might be secret).
> 
> So, lets wait for some good source or at least meaningful source which states, what is stage currently, when will be tested and when will be integrated.


Bro the leak of this missile was long ago and in Pakistan it's when the news is out it means it is been done. I agree with you because when india leaks any news of her missiles its either start working on it or in the middle but in Pakistan it works the other way around. Pakistani believe that we had this missile for almost 2-3 years back, We were just waiting for India to make a move like always so we fallow.

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## A1Kaid

Developereo said:


> This was discussed at length in a different thread that ICBMs would be a net-negative for Pakistan. If we can hit Europe, they would be less likely to help us militarily. And it might bring sanctions from US -- no military sales unless they are COIN related.



Interesting concern you raise, well Iran can hit Europe and Europeans some of them still conduct business with Iran, Turkey can hit Europe, hell Turkey can invade Europe...

I don't see any reason why Europe would view Pakistan as a threat, there's really no substance or validity to this concern. I really don't see this development as a "net-negative" for Pakistan, *I mean perhaps the possibility exist but the probability is little*. I could be wrong, we will have to stay tuned to see the reaction, let time take it's course...


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## Developereo

luoshan said:


> This means Beijing, Tianjin, Guangzhou and Shanghai will be within the range of this missile. I wonder how the Chinese will react to this.



The same way Israel, Russia, Europe and US will react to Indian ICBMs.


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## Developereo

Brahm0s said:


> so does its india + america + japan's intrest to contain pak-china.



Japan is fast increasing friendship with China.

Japan does not want to be America's stooge in Asia. Looks like they are passing the baton to India.

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## Awesome

The Agni IV was fired?



> *Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile With 7,000 KM Rage War Head On Going*
> 
> PAKISTAN, ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is contemplating developing an Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) with a 7,000 km range to make the country&#8217;s defence impregnable and strengthen the armed forces of the country against any offence. The plan was evolved after successful test fire of Agni IV, the Indian ICBM system with a target range of 6000 km, which caused an imbalance of power in South Asia, extremely well informed defence sources told Business Recorder here on Wednesday.
> 
> Sources maintained that preparations are underway for the development of this long range ballistic missile and very soon it would be test fired. It would have the capacity to carry conventional and nuclear war heads. This missile, if successfully test fired, will be a milestone in the history of the country and a major achievement of scientists and engineers of Pakistan.
> 
> The possession of this ICBM not only will make Pakistan&#8217;s defence impregnable but will also help create a balance of power in the region, which defence analysts believe was disturbed by the Indian test firing of Agni IV missile with a range of 6000 kilometres.
> 
> This scribe contacted high officials of the Defence Ministry who claimed ignorance of this development and refused to comment on this matter. The Director General of the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), when contacted by this scribe also said that he was not aware of the development of the ICBM with a range of 7000 kilometre. It is pertinent to note that India recently test fired the 6000-kilometer Agni IV Missile with a capacity to hit and destroy targets deep in China.


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## Awesome

The Asian Age - Enjoy the difference



> *Pakistan close to 7,000-km ICBM*
> 
> 
> Shafqat Ali
> 
> Islamabad
> 
> Aug. 13: Pakistan has started preparing an intercontinental missile with a range of 7,000 km, defence sources said.
> 
> "The aim is to increase our defence capabilities. The work on the project has started. It will soon be test-fired", the sources said, adding, "The intercontinental missile has a range of 7,000 km and is capable of hitting targets falling within its range. The missile can contain nuclear as well as traditional warheads," the source said.
> 
> He said the missile will be a significant milestone for the defence of the country.
> 
> On Wednesday, Air Chief Marshal Qamar Suleman said that the Pakistan Air Force plans to induct four Chinese airborne refuellers next year, in a move to counter IAF&#8217;s enhanced capabilities after New Delhi acquired six similar aircraft.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Qamar Suleman underlined that the airborne refuellers were necessary to match IAF&#8217;s capabilities. "This is an absolutely new capability which we are inducting. We never had this capability in the PAF," he said.
> 
> He said in order to match IAF&#8217;s acquisition of the first of three airborne warning and control systems, PAF will receive four Chinese systems between 2011 and 2012.



Still "sources", no quotes.


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## Developereo

MZUBAIR said:


> Y europe will think like that? There is no threat for europe or any other cuntry. Its just enhancment of missel technology



Pakistan is a nuclear armed muslim state. Anti-muslim media and politcians in Europe will hype up that threat to block any military help to Pakistan.

Even if some politicians know that the threat is not real, the media and pubic opinion will make it very difficult for them to help Pakistan. Witness the U-214 debate in Germany.


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## A1Kaid

Asim Aquil said:


> The Agni IV was fired?



I think the article made a honest mistake and confused the incident with the actual Agni-III which was 'first successfully test-fired in April 2007, after initial test failure'. On May 8, 2008 the Agni-III was retested successfully* The Agni III has a range of at least 3,000 KM and that makes it more than enough to hit strategic Chinese cities like Hong Kong and Beijing for India...


*The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Agni test-fire sends 2 signals


This is a useful diagram.







The Agni-V is believed to have a range of 5,000-6,000 km's.


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## Awesome

I'm not one of those people who subscribe to the notion that we shouldn't build an ICBM because the US or Israel would start thinking maybe its for them since all our other missiles have been for India only.

Pakistan's missiles should be able to go hit mars, if the need is there. Doesn't mean we will just randomly shoot at people. That sort of talk is insulting - we really aren't crazy loons. 

Nuclear weapons are mostly used as a deterrance. Also not to mention these weapons give us great second strike capability especially if ported as an SLBM. If God forbid all of Pakistan is destroyed, a sub sitting far, far away from the scene can start firing these nukes at our enemies.

So its all just great for deterrance and must be built. All of our enemies are doing it anyway. It'll be downright treacherous to cower away from building this weapon due to political concerns.

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## Awesome

A1Kaid said:


> I think the article made a honest mistake and confused the incident with the actual Agni-III which was 'first successfully test-fired in April 2007, after initial test failure'. On May 8, 2008 the Agni-III was retested successfully* The Agni III has a range of at least 3,000 KM and that makes it more than enough to hit strategic Chinese cities like Hong Kong and Beijing for India...
> 
> 
> *The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Agni test-fire sends 2 signals
> 
> 
> This is a useful diagram.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Agni-V is believed to have a range of 5,000-6,000 km's.


No Agni IV?


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## A1Kaid

Asim Aquil said:


> No Agni IV?





Well I did find this information regarding the Agni IV.


"
*Agni 4 Long Range Missile - Capable Of Striking Inland China*

Dated 12/12/2007

India announced major plans to increase its nuclear capabilities Wednesday, saying it was close to testing a ballistic missile capable of *hitting targets up to 6,000 kilometres (3,800 miles) away*.

*Such a distance would nearly double the military's current strike range, putting targets even in Europe within reach*, and came one day after neighbouring Pakistan tested a nuclear capable cruise missile. M. Natarajan, who heads the Indian government's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), *said flight tests of Agni-IV ballistic missiles would begin within months*."


Source: Agni 4 Long Range Missile - Capable Of Striking Inland China | India Defence


It would be best to seek further verification on these claims in the article.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

A1Kaid said:


> Well I did find this information regarding the Agni IV.
> 
> 
> "
> *Agni 4 Long Range Missile - Capable Of Striking Inland China*
> 
> Dated 12/12/2007
> 
> India announced major plans to increase its nuclear capabilities Wednesday, saying it was close to testing a ballistic missile capable of *hitting targets up to 6,000 kilometres (3,800 miles) away*.
> 
> *Such a distance would nearly double the military's current strike range, putting targets even in Europe within reach*, and came one day after neighbouring Pakistan tested a nuclear capable cruise missile. M. Natarajan, who heads the Indian government's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), *said flight tests of Agni-IV ballistic missiles would begin within months*."
> 
> 
> Source: Agni 4 Long Range Missile - Capable Of Striking Inland China | India Defence
> 
> 
> It would be best to seek further verification on these claims in the article.



Don't bother, it's already been verified as failures. Go to rupeenews.com for details - author is staunch Pak Nationalist but his research is well-grounded.


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## Super Falcon

i hope muslims will send their own sattelites


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## Stealth

Brahm0s said:


> Friend you mean war between pakistan and israel would end israel and america would eat popcorn and watch it? i think pakistan wont even know what came and hit them untill its too late. if pakistan even dare to take on israel than thats it. That would be begning of 'end' of pakistan my friend. Anyway you are taking israel too much lightly (due to size of it). Let us know what pakistan got and compare it to israel. Am sure you would know the 'huge' difference.



My friend buying (Su30, F18 or F16 American tech n Isreal Phalcon Awacs) for Pakistan ?? end pakistan and china ?? and you think we and chinez eat popcorn and watch it ???? i think Indian wont even know what came!

If India even dare to take on PAK or CHINA would be begning of """"END"""" OF INDIA and Hinduism (INCLUDING) you are taking pakistan too much lightly since last 10 years. So remember my words

1 matchz END OF INDIA!!!

PS: n ya remmeber we dont like 50 50 or 5 day test match.. we luv 20 20 and Answer any country with in short MATCH!

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## graphican

Brahm0s said:


> Friend you mean war between pakistan and israel would end israel and america would eat popcorn and watch it? i think pakistan wont even know what came and hit them untill its too late. if pakistan even dare to take on israel than thats it. That would be begning of 'end' of pakistan my friend. Anyway you are taking israel too much lightly (due to size of it). Let us know what pakistan got and compare it to israel. Am sure you would know the 'huge' difference.



I respect your concerns for Pakistan but its not people of Pakistan who would want to go against Zionists, its what God has written in our fate. Pakistan is a developing country with millions of problems and issues. Our mistake but we are far behind in the field of technology, manufacturing, health, agriculture and education. But even then Pakistan is able to develop superior Nuclear Technology and Long Rage Missiles, one of the best battle tanks and quality fighters. Its not Muslims but particularly people of Pakistan who would join Prophet Isa Iban-e-Maryam against Zionists and it will happen the time when Anti-Christ (Dajjal) would be in the best of his powers. So we know, our enemy would be strongest of its times but we also know we are going to defeat it.

There was one battle, the battle of Constantinople about which Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH had predicted and promised. It has happened Alhamdolillah and the way we were told. Now there is another prediction and promise of great reward about Ghazwatul-Hind and Fight against Dajjal and even the results are told already. So you wont find us shiver when you show us the comparison. As we know the results, we are waiting and waiting desperately for the day when Allah would put us under the test and reward us. May be 95% of Pakistani's would die or perhaps only 10 thousand would survive but we will be victorious and who cares for life which is going to end in 60 years time in any case.

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## blueoval79

^^^^^^^
Wow...and I always thought religious fanatic bed time stories are present in India only....


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## TsAr

I think this would be not targeted against any country but would help in future space programme

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## Righteous_Fire

blueoval79 said:


> ^^^^^^^
> Wow...and I always thought religious fanatic bed time stories are present in India only....



Well I wont require you blueoval79 to believe in that stuff because its neither your religion nor more importantly have you read about it.

You can't call it 



blueoval79 said:


> religious fanatic bed time stories



 Portents of that are present in Sahih Ahadith, meaning the established by research true words of the Prophet PBUH are present as evidence that say exactly what "graphican" said. As Muslims this is part of our Faith and you don't have to be a Fanatic to believe what the Prophet said. Any and every Muslim will tell you, whether from the traditional Muslim areas or Western countries, they believe the words of the Prophet PBUH and accept them to be more true than you and I being alive or here  .

*But what I liked about Graphican's statement was they way in which he conveyed the spirit of a Muslim.* Material wealth ans resources are not the end but a mere means to an end.


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## wild peace

blueoval79 said:


> ^^^^^^^
> Wow...and I always thought religious fanatic bed time stories are present in India only....



This is not the stories these are the Sayings of Prophet MUHAMMAD (saw) and we belive in this . Don't you see why Bin Gorian in 1948 say 
enematic words against Pakistan. My Childest thinking brother the comming war is the pure religious war and it is mainly between Islam and jewism.

Regards
Always wild but after peace.


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## wild peace

Sir we all are going away form topic
This missile is only for Pakistan defence and its space development . Who ever hate this do their best . Now my reports are Pakistan has this from last 5 to 6 years in its inventory its cold tests all are done with all its perfections but they do not want an test it but now InshAllah Pakistan is going to test its Slv plus returning vehicle so guys hold your Thoughts Pakistan is again again going to surprise you all.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

It will be a deterrent and will stop any future wars and misadventure against Pakistan even from 7000Km away.


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## Hyde

But the question arises is: where are the going fire? Africa? Europe or deep inside Russia or China??????? where exactly, they cannot test only in Pakistan, the missile has to go somewhere and which country is going to allow this? and why western countries will not try to interrupt it?

I am happy for this news but i don't think its realistic yet, may be we have the capability but we are not going to fire it anytime soon, write it down, as long as Americans are there in Afghanistan and drone attacks in Pakistan i don't see enhancements in our Missile technology....... only small tests will take place for a while and after the drone attacks are over, then we can talk about something big, i guess 5000KM one week, 6000OM second, 7000KM third and 10000KM fourth week is possible but only after AMERICA is away from Pakistan


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## nightrider_saulat

*it will be reveal at the right time
*


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## gambit

Mr X said:


> But the question arises is: where are the going fire? Africa? Europe or deep inside Russia or China??????? where exactly, *they cannot test only in Pakistan*, the missile has to go somewhere and which country is going to allow this? and why western countries will not try to interrupt it?
> 
> I am happy for this news but i don't think its realistic yet, may be we have the capability but we are not going to fire it anytime soon, write it down, as long as Americans are there in Afghanistan and drone attacks in Pakistan i don't see enhancements in our Missile technology....... only small tests will take place for a while and after the drone attacks are over, then we can talk about something big, i guess 5000KM one week, 6000OM second, 7000KM third and 10000KM fourth week is possible but only after AMERICA is away from Pakistan


That is a problem.

Just because a ballistic missile is capable of X distance, it does not mean the warhead will hit the intended target. The longer the distance, the longer the flight time and the more influences, such as aerodynamics or guidance errors, can increase its CEP to unacceptable level. So in order for Pakistan to actually verify the accuracy of this intercontinental level missile, where will Pakistan land the warhead and how will Pakistan verify its accuracy?

Imagine picking up a pistol, fire off one round and immediately throw the pistol into the trash can. Or how about imagining an F-15 Strike Eagle crew ejecting out of a perfectly functional fighter after they dropped their bombs. Sounds silly? Not really. That is exactly a missile -- a throwaway weapon. Every time you launch a missile, you are throwing away the launch vehicle. One launch vehicle per load. It is not cost effective so the idea of multiple warheads was borned, multiple independent reentry vehicles (MIRV). But you are still discarding the launch vehicle for every load, MIRV-ed or not. So in order to have a reasonable return-on-investment (ROI), and a missile launch towards the enemy is very much an 'investment', you should make the product to be as efficient and productive as possible and that mean verifying at that 7000km away location that the warhead will land somewhere around X.

After you fired off all 15 rounds of your semiautomagic pistol, you reload and perform the actions all over again. You clean the weapon periodically. Same for the F-15 Strike Eagle fighter. After you dropped your bombs, you do whatever you can to return to base so the aircraft can be rearmed. You have good ROI on both weapons.

Is Pakistan wealthy enough to throwaway so many missiles?


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## PAFAce

gambit said:


> That is a problem.
> 
> Just because a ballistic missile is capable of X distance, it does not mean the warhead will hit the intended target. The longer the distance, the longer the flight time and the more influences, such as aerodynamics or guidance errors, can increase its CEP to unacceptable level. So in order for Pakistan to actually verify the accuracy of this intercontinental level missile, where will Pakistan land the warhead and how will Pakistan verify its accuracy?
> 
> Imagine picking up a pistol, fire off one round and immediately throw the pistol into the trash can. Or how about imagining an F-15 Strike Eagle crew ejecting out of a perfectly functional fighter after they dropped their bombs. Sounds silly? Not really. That is exactly a missile -- a throwaway weapon. Every time you launch a missile, you are throwing away the launch vehicle. One launch vehicle per load. It is not cost effective so the idea of multiple warheads was borned, multiple independent reentry vehicles (MIRV). But you are still discarding the launch vehicle for every load, MIRV-ed or not. So in order to have a reasonable return-on-investment (ROI), and a missile launch towards the enemy is very much an 'investment', you should make the product to be as efficient and productive as possible and that mean verifying at that 7000km away location that the warhead will land somewhere around X.
> 
> After you fired off all 15 rounds of your semiautomagic pistol, you reload and perform the actions all over again. You clean the weapon periodically. Same for the F-15 Strike Eagle fighter. After you dropped your bombs, you do whatever you can to return to base so the aircraft can be rearmed. You have good ROI on both weapons.
> 
> Is Pakistan wealthy enough to throwaway so many missiles?


How many are we talking here? All weapon systems go through prototype phases, and these prototypes are rarely put into operational service (JF-17, for instance). If we were to lose a few, but veerify its acuracy, it's a pretty damn good ROI isn't it?

Also, you don't really have to fire it off into another country, fire it into the sea. Or, if you really want to, launch it from the North and gather it up in the South, and extrapolate the data to calculate its accuracy over a longer distance. Errors are most likely to occur during the launch or final stages, and those are really not dependent on the distance travelled.

Worst case scenario, we ask the Chinese for assistance. Being unable to launch and recover it, or throwing a few away for the sake of RDTE and V&V are not reason enough to scrap a program of this magnitude, if it exists.

On the other hand, the area that such a project will benefit most is our Space Program. I have always believed that we had the know-how in missile-tech to work towards a space system launch vehicle, but were constrained due to funding and political short-sightedness. If this program turns out to be true, then surely, an SLV must be in the works as well. Space, in my opinion, is a much more beneficial (and a lot more justifiable) target to aim for than anyone 7000KM away from us.


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## SBD-3

Mr X said:


> But the question arises is: where are the going fire? Africa? Europe or deep inside Russia or China??????? where exactly, they cannot test only in Pakistan, the missile has to go somewhere and which country is going to allow this? and why western countries will not try to interrupt it?
> 
> I am happy for this news but i don't think its realistic yet, may be we have the capability but we are not going to fire it anytime soon, write it down, as long as Americans are there in Afghanistan and drone attacks in Pakistan i don't see enhancements in our Missile technology....... only small tests will take place for a while and after the drone attacks are over, then we can talk about something big, i guess 5000KM one week, 6000OM second, 7000KM third and 10000KM fourth week is possible but only after AMERICA is away from Pakistan


Well interesting thoughts but I think Pakistan would save this missile for any curing future "Over confidence" just like nukes and babur and i personally think we should not do such things untill absolutely necessary.just like israel which has nukes but doesn't officially admits this.


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## lein303

gambit said:


> That is a problem.
> 
> Just because a ballistic missile is capable of X distance, it does not mean the warhead will hit the intended target. The longer the distance, the longer the flight time and the more influences, such as aerodynamics or guidance errors, can increase its CEP to unacceptable level. So in order for Pakistan to actually verify the accuracy of this intercontinental level missile, where will Pakistan land the warhead and how will Pakistan verify its accuracy?
> 
> Imagine picking up a pistol, fire off one round and immediately throw the pistol into the trash can. Or how about imagining an F-15 Strike Eagle crew ejecting out of a perfectly functional fighter after they dropped their bombs. Sounds silly? Not really. That is exactly a missile -- a throwaway weapon. Every time you launch a missile, you are throwing away the launch vehicle. One launch vehicle per load. It is not cost effective so the idea of multiple warheads was borned, multiple independent reentry vehicles (MIRV). But you are still discarding the launch vehicle for every load, MIRV-ed or not. So in order to have a reasonable return-on-investment (ROI), and a missile launch towards the enemy is very much an 'investment', you should make the product to be as efficient and productive as possible and that mean verifying at that 7000km away location that the warhead will land somewhere around X.
> 
> After you fired off all 15 rounds of your semiautomagic pistol, you reload and perform the actions all over again. You clean the weapon periodically. Same for the F-15 Strike Eagle fighter. After you dropped your bombs, you do whatever you can to return to base so the aircraft can be rearmed. You have good ROI on both weapons.
> 
> Is Pakistan wealthy enough to throwaway so many missiles?



Missiles arnt as expensive as other military hardware. The hardware you stated above (most notably the F-15) are very expensive machines compared to medium range ballistic or cruise missiles. If you talk about ICBM's then I doubt pakistan would use them for purely conventional means


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## gambit

PAFAce said:


> How many are we talking here? All weapon systems go through prototype phases, and these prototypes are rarely put into operational service (JF-17, for instance). If we were to lose a few, but veerify its acuracy, it's a pretty damn good ROI isn't it?
> 
> Also, you don't really have to fire it off into another country, fire it into the sea. Or, if you really want to, launch it from the North and gather it up in the South, and *extrapolate the data to calculate its accuracy over a longer distance. Errors are most likely to occur during the launch or final stages, and those are really not dependent on the distance travelled.*
> 
> Worst case scenario, we ask the Chinese for assistance. Being unable to launch and recover it, or throwing a few away for the sake of RDTE and V&V are not reason enough to scrap a program of this magnitude, if it exists.
> 
> On the other hand, the area that such a project will benefit most is our Space Program. I have always believed that we had the know-how in missile-tech to work towards a space system launch vehicle, but were constrained due to funding and political short-sightedness. If this program turns out to be true, then surely, an SLV must be in the works as well. Space, in my opinion, is a much more beneficial (and a lot more justifiable) target to aim for than anyone 7000KM away from us.


Not as simple as you think.

One of the most common problems in missile design and construction, regardless of type, is the thrust-body angle alignment. Basically, the issue is about if the direction of thrust is in line with the body and it is more problematic than most people realize. The rocket motors cannot be bolted to the missile body, their vibration will catastrophically fail the missile the moment it start. They must be isolated to some degree yet remain structurally integral to the missile so as not their thrust go out of alignment during flight. The higher the misalignment, the sooner and therefore shorter distance the error will manifest itself. If this issue is not addressed then it is irrelevant on how powerful and how far the missile can go. It will embarrassingly miss the target.

As the missile design is being refined, assuming the thrust-body angle alignment being minimized, it will be necessary to remove onself from launch to that X distance to verify if the thrust-body angle alignment is being properly addressed. If there are some misalignment that cannot be repaired then it must be compensated. The methods can be through aerodynamics such as fins to exploit aerodynamics forces to counteract the misdirection that misalignment induces, or to use lateral thrust mechanisms to effect the same counteractions. There are plenty of publicly available sources that shows those small side rocket bursts. They are for stabilization and to compensate for the missile's own thrust-body misalignment.

These items cannot be extrapolated as you cannot predict if those fins will actuate to the degree you want or those side thrusts will be constant over time. After you perform those repairs or install those compensation measures, you must run out to that 5000 km or 6000 km point and check if your fixes works as your suppliers claim they should. You must perform these tests on random, from launch times to distances.

Another issue that must be verified at the target point, meaning *YOU* have to be there, is when should the missile perform a 'gravity turn'...

Gravity turn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> The gravity turn is commonly utilized with launch vehicles such as a rocket or the Space Shuttle which launch vertically. The rocket begins by flying straight up, gaining both vertical speed and altitude. During this portion of the launch gravity acts directly against the thrust of the rocket, lowering its vertical acceleration. Losses associated with this slowing are known as gravity drag, and can be minimized by executing the next phase of the launch, *the pitch over maneuver, as soon as possible*. The pitch over should also be carried out while the vertical velocity is small to avoid large aerodynamic loads on the vehicle during the maneuver.


If the missile travels mostly endoatmosphere, it is more vulnerable to interception. So do you really want to perform this gravity turn 'as soon as possible'? May be or may be not. But regardless of when you want your missile to make this turn, the only way you can verify is with the final result and that mean you have to be at the target point.

In order for Pakistan to have an effective 7000 km ballistic missile force, much money must be allocated to testing this capability and that require Pakistan to have a 'blue water' navy force *IF* the intention is to test over water. The Chinese does not have a 'blue water' navy.

Because a missile is essentially a throwaway weapon, it would be criminally wasteful to have anything less than a full testing regime that would involve Pakistan to be at all points throughout the entire 7000 km distance. If the missile is acceptably accurate, based upon a certain CEP figure, at 6000 km and goes wildly out of tolerance beyond that, then the claim is 6000 km, not 7000 km even though the missile is capable of traveling that far. Of course, that tolerance is arbitrary but as far as those who are experienced at ICBM deployment, and that would include US and Russia, if the missile's CEP is beyond 100 meters, might as well go nuclear in order to have a good ROI.


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## TaimiKhan

Before posting so many remarks about this story has anyone thought about its logic.

I think the 7000Km missile story is a hoax, as Pakistan does not need such a long range missile for the time being or may be in future too. 

Has anyone studied a missile program ?? specially pakistan's ??

Missiles are made one step at a time. The farthest missile that PA is Shaheen & Ghuri, whose tested variants have a range of at the most 2500KM to 3500KM. 

And if you look at the Hatf series of Pakistan ballistic missiles, they are developed in stages, one step at a time. Ghauri-I had a range of 1500KM, then came Ghauri-II with a 2000+KM range, Shaheen-1 had 750KM range, then came Shaheen-II 2500+ KM range. 

So if we have an approx 3000+KM or 2500+KM range missile, logically we should be going for a 4000+ or 4500+ range missiles, not a double leap to 7000+KM range missile. Our missile program is a testament to the step by step approach, rather all developers adopt this tactic. 

As we know our newspaper & media, they tend to exaggerate the original story, to make it more spicy. 

I see Ghauri III or Shaheen III or may be an upgraded version of the LACM to be the next outcome with ranges of around 4000KM or so. LACM if any will definitely have less range. 

7000KM missile is one hectic job & costly too, which we can't sustain for a longer period of time with weak state of economy. Once we reach the 5000KM or so mark then we can think of going to 7000KM range mark. 

For us right now, the current arsenal of ballistic missiles is to be increased & made operationally effective & destructive. MIRV capability should be tested and made operational & ways to counter the Anti-ballistic missile shield of future & present.


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## ck_mizz

@ Mughal Jee

Bro since 1960 a hell lot of our fellow Pakistani people have migrated to Europe and Americas. and since then 2 more generations have been evolved. So, in this context, we need a very systematic and precise mode of logistics to deliver MITHAI k DABBBAYYYYYYYYYY !!!!! 

What kind of a question it was yaar !!! it is mentioned above k Balance of Power in the region is the key factor.

Once we have reached Tel-Aviv or Jeruselam, then Pakistan will be on top of Middle-East & Asian Cold Warfare. Then we will be bargaining India on the tables of Pentagon.


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## MZUBAIR

toxic_pus said:


> Well if it is indeed an effort at space launching, I would say that Pakistan is doing it wrong. It is easier to masquerade an ICBM project as space program because this window dressing enables the entire research relating to ICBM, to be done outside the scope of prying eyes and ears. Why would Pakistan want to do it the other way round. Declare a space program as ICBM project and draw unnecessary attention, and in the process create unnecessary flutter among powers that be?
> 
> So either it is a genuine ICBM project, which in itself may prove to be diplomatically costly, or it is just for domestic consumption. Or the report itself is not true.



Thanxs for ur suggestions


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## mughaljee

Brother ck_mizz
Distance from Pakistan to Israel ?


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## SBD-3

mughaljee said:


> Brother ck_mizz
> Distance from Pakistan to Israel ?



its only 3594.9 KM from islamabad to tel aviv
if we launch shaheen II from Peshawar its surly gonna reach Tel Aviv
Israel is already under our gunns

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## moha199

hasnain0099 said:


> its only 3594.9 KM from islamabad to tel aviv
> if we launch shaheen II from Peshawar its surly gonna reach Tel Aviv
> Israel is already under our gunns



You are so right but i believe this program is based on Space... We want our step in, Once we launch this we will be going to space pretty soon.... I love it lol

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## SBD-3

moha199 said:


> You are so right but i believe this program is based on Space... We want our step in, Once we launch this we will be going to space pretty soon.... I love it lol


Yep we desperatly need spy sats in space and then we can work alongwith China and benifit from its experience antissattlite warfare if we are gonna do these two things its gonna be a heck of an achievement


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## Hyde

hasnain0099 said:


> its only 3594.9 KM from islamabad to tel aviv
> if we launch shaheen II from Peshawar its surly gonna reach Tel Aviv
> Israel is already under our gunns



what place from Islamabad have to selected and what from Tel Aviv  how can you be so sure its 3594.9KM  are you pointing from your home to the Israeli Prime Minister home  or any other logic behind it 

I guess the distance is counted from the post offices of the respective cities but how can you be so accurate about this much distance? I challenge its 3594.8KM and not 3594.9KM


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## TaimiKhan

Mr X said:


> what place from Islamabad have to selected and what from Tel Aviv  how can you be so sure its 3594.9KM  are you pointing from your home to the Israeli Prime Minister home  or any other logic behind it
> 
> I guess the distance is counted from the post offices of the respective cities but how can you be so accurate about this much distance? I challenge its 3594.8KM and not 3594.9KM



Islamabad, Pakistan to Tel Aviv, Israel = Direct Route 3556.0KM
Peshawar, Pakistan to Tel Aviv, Israel = Direct Route 3414.0KM
Lahore, pakistan to Tel Aviv, Israel = Direct Route 3711.0KM

Check out the website, its cool

How Far Is It Between


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## Spitfighter

FYI, Israel has nukes too. Why does Pakistan have a problem with Israel anyway?


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## Hyde

taimikhan said:


> Islamabad, Pakistan to Tel Aviv, Israel = Direct Route 3556.0KM
> Peshawar, Pakistan to Tel Aviv, Israel = Direct Route 3414.0KM
> Lahore, pakistan to Tel Aviv, Israel = Direct Route 3711.0KM
> 
> Check out the website, its cool
> 
> How Far Is It Between



Thanks for the site

well i now its saying its 3603KM from Islamabad to Tel Aviv? I have my strong reservations about this site

and also we haven't test any missile ranged above 2500KM right? so i don't think we can hit tel aviv from Karachi that is 3234.000KM or Gwadar that is 2785.000KM from the site you have mentioned.... is there any closest city a part from the Gwadar? and why will be install there, it must be in the true range and not like first we have to transfer our weapons to the boundary of the country and then fire it  We should assume where our missiles are installed already so we can have a proper estimation rather than loading your missiels in a truck and start finding at place at the boundary line to fire Israel


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## IceCold

Spitfighter said:


> FYI, Israel has nukes too. Why does Pakistan have a problem with Israel anyway?



Isnt this the case vice verse. They have problem with every muslim nation in the world apart from certain exceptions(Turkey,Egypt) and specially with a country that has nuclear weapons.


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## Developereo

IceCold said:


> Isnt this the case vice verse. They have problem with every muslim nation in the world apart from certain exceptions(Turkey,Egypt) and specially with a country that has nuclear weapons.



Egyptians don't like Israel, either.
Only the tyrant, Hosni Mubarak, gets paid "protection money" by the US to play nice to Israel.

Pakistan's problem with Israel is that its Zionist supporters actively campaign against Pakistani (and almost all) Muslim countries' interests.


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## gambit

Developereo said:


> Egyptians don't like Israel, either.
> Only the tyrant, Hosni Mubarak, gets paid "protection money" by the US to play nice to Israel.
> 
> Pakistan's problem with Israel is that its Zionist supporters actively campaign against Pakistani (and almost all) *Muslim countries' interests.*


Which is to wipe Israel off the map.


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## Developereo

gambit said:


> Which is to wipe Israel off the map.



Agreed.
We consider Israel to be an illegal land grab sanctioned by gunboat diplomacy.

That does not mean Israelis, especially those born in Israel, should be killed but some acknowledgement of history and reconciliation is probably the best way forward.

Maybe this is getting a bit too off-topic.

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## gambit

Developereo said:


> Agreed.
> We consider Israel to be an illegal land grab sanctioned by gunboat diplomacy.
> 
> That does not mean Israelis, especially those born in Israel, should be killed but some acknowledgement of history and reconciliation is probably the best way forward.
> 
> Maybe this is getting a bit too off-topic.


So the muslims' problems with Israel is that the Jews there object to the muslims' desire to erase the political entity known as 'Israel', kill any Jews who resist, and basically enslave any Jews that remain alive.


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## Developereo

gambit said:


> So the muslims' problems with Israel is that the Jews there object to the muslims' desire to erase the political entity known as 'Israel', kill any Jews who resist, and basically enslave any Jews that remain alive.



The Arab (Muslim and Christian) position is that Israel ceased to exist when the Romans invaded in AD70. Since that time, the land has been inhabited by many peoples, mostly by overwhelmingly Arab majorities with a tiny Jewish minority.

The current incarnation of Israel as a "Jewish State" has no secular justification. It was justified purely on the basis of the Jewish belief in God's Abrahamic Covenant which "reserved" the land in perpetuity for his Chosen People. Because of support from Western superpowers, this purely 100% religious justification was dressed up and concealed under various secular Declarations from the UN and others.

Even at the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, after years of clandestine immigration, Jews only made up 10% of the population of Palestine. Yet the Declaration calls is a future "Jewish homeland" where the rights of the non-Jewish peoples (90% of the population) would be protected.

Any way you look at it, it was a land grab at gun point. It just so happened that the Arabs and Turks were in no position to resist the conquering Western powers who legitimized their conquest through sham UN resolutions.

To the victor go the spoils. Legitimacy has nothing to do with it.

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## gambit

Developereo said:


> The Arab (Muslim and Christian) position is that Israel ceased to exist when the Romans invaded in AD70. Since that time, the land has been inhabited by many peoples, mostly by overwhelmingly Arab majorities with a tiny Jewish minority.
> 
> The current incarnation of Israel as a "Jewish State" has no secular justification. It was justified purely on the basis of the Jewish belief in God's Abrahamic Covenant which "reserved" the land in perpetuity for his Chosen People. Because of support from Western superpowers, this purely 100% religious justification was dressed up and concealed under various secular Declarations from the UN and others.
> 
> Even at the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, after years of clandestine immigration, Jews only made up 10% of the population of Palestine. Yet the Declaration calls is a future "Jewish homeland" where the rights of the non-Jewish peoples (90% of the population) would be protected.
> 
> Any way you look at it, it was a land grab at gun point. It just so happened that the Arabs and Turks were in no position to resist the conquering Western powers who legitimized their conquest through sham UN resolutions.
> 
> To the victor go the spoils. Legitimacy has nothing to do with it.


But the Arabs had no problems with how the ME was partitioned from the remnants of the Ottoman Empire to give the oil wealthy lands they have today. Only with the Jews living in an assertive position does somehow UN resolutions are illegitimate.


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## moha199

Spitfighter said:


> FYI, Israel has nukes too. Why does Pakistan have a problem with Israel anyway?


What israel's F-16s were doing in India on 27th may 1998? What did we do to Israel in 80s when they were planing to attack Kahota? If i go on it will not finish!!!


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## Developereo

gambit said:


> But the Arabs had no problems with how the ME was partitioned from the remnants of the Ottoman Empire to give the oil wealthy lands they have today. Only with the Jews living in an assertive position does somehow UN resolutions are illegitimate.



Actually the division of the Middle East into little tinpot Arab dictators was a ploy by the British and the French.

The Arabs were originally promised a pan-Arab state if they rebelled against the Ottoman Turks.

The BBC documentary: Promises and Betrayals: gives an excellent account of the history.

I do not absolve the Arab governments of responsibility. I believe that they, along with Israeli hardliners, want to prolong the conflict to divert attention from domestic issues.

Most Arab governments have criminally mismanaged their oil wealth.
And Israel has simmering ethnic tensions between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews.


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## TaimiKhan

gambit said:


> So the muslims' problems with Israel is that the Jews there object to the muslims' desire to erase the political entity known as 'Israel', kill any Jews who resist, and basically enslave any Jews that remain alive.



We don't wanna kill any Jews, problem is when west created Israel, hundred thousands of Palestinians were thrown out of their homes, homes where they were living for centuries & since then these people have been living as refugees and don't have their own identity. And their land was grabbed by force by the Jews living in Israel and the Jews imported from rest of the world thanks to Western countries. 

When Americans talk about the terrorism done by Palestinians, i find it very ironical how they, the Americans forget about their past, how they killed and threw out the Red Indians from their lands, and made them live in reservations specially assigned for them, just like the Israelis have done by limiting the Palestinians in walled sections carved out from their own tertiary inhabited by them for hundreds of years, just like Red Indians, who were living for hundred of years and then came the foreigners who killed them and grabbed their land, and now voice for democracy and to end evil, when the biggest supported of evil forces & evil doing if America itself. 
Aaahhh just remembered, the black people, how americans behaved with them, how they were enslaved for centuries, just 50 years ago there was color segregation in the so called upholder of democracy, and now also we see number of cases where blacks and other community people are subjected to racism. 

Americans supplies & funds Israel to kill innocent people & children just like killing insects, and Americans come to us to give us lecture, while on the other hand their so called friend is killing thousands of innocent people with their weapons. 

Gambit Sir, have u ever thought that what will you do once someone tries to grab your home, your land and kicks you out of your own home ?? Are you gonna sit and watch or are you gonna try to get your home back ?? 

Why US led half a century cold war against USSR, becoz US was afraid that if it did not counter the UUSR, it will attack and grab US land. 

So if Palestinians are fighting for their land from where they were thrown out, whats the big deal ? Isn't that what you will do once you are thrown out of your home ???

If US so much cares about Israel, why doesn't US gives some piece of its land to create Israel ??? 

We Muslims have not lost our balls just like Christians have, we fight for our land, for our holy places. Not like Christians who were mum when some years back in 2002 i guess Israeli Soldiers besieged the Christians holiest site, The Church of Nativity & fired at it. 

So kindly before you lecture us, see your own counties mistake and atrocities

Israel is a murderer of thousands of Muslims and has grabbed Muslim land & wishes to destroy our 2nd holiest religious site, for that we will fight them if we have to and whoever supports them. US attacked the Taliban because they supported Al Qaeda, so why not Muslims attack US which supports, funds & arms Israel ??? 

And Sir, please don't reply with a BS kind of answer, you are a senior member with a Mil Prof tag, so reply as a human being after looking into the facts & reality. 

US has been there for hundreds of years, Muslims had no animosity with US, but why has it reached its height in the last 3 to 4 decades ??? Do give it a thought.

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## gambit

Developereo said:


> Actually the division of the Middle East into little tinpot Arab dictators was a ploy by the British and the French.
> 
> The Arabs were originally promised a pan-Arab state if they rebelled against the Ottoman Turks.
> 
> The BBC documentary: Promises and Betrayals: gives an excellent account of the history.
> 
> I do not absolve the Arab governments of responsibility. I believe that they, along with Israeli hardliners, want to prolong the conflict to divert attention from domestic issues.
> 
> Most Arab governments have criminally mismanaged their oil wealth.
> And Israel has simmering ethnic tensions between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews.


You are just tap-dancing around the issue. You said this -- _To the victors goes the spoils_ -- and used the Romans conquest of the region as example of how a Jewish nation-state was erased off the map. Fact is that world history is repleted with such conquests. But it is also a fact that the victors *WILL* do what they want with the spoils as they see fit. The Western powers have the remnants of the Ottoman Empire as spoils. They divied up the region, rightly or wrongly or mistakenly, into separate nation-states according to the demographics they felt appropriate. The Arabs made no bones about such divisions. Forward to WW II and once again the Western powers have the ME as the spoils. Give the Jews a patch of desert and all of a sudden this particular bit of the spoils became an injustice that every muslim must felt betrayed no matter how far away he is and if he is borned after Israel was created. This is a religious war and you are not fooling anyone.


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## Developereo

gambit said:


> You are just tap-dancing around the issue. You said this -- _To the victors goes the spoils_



You just acknowledged that the current scenario is the spoils of war. It is gunboat diplomacy and the only legitimacy is the one obtained by virtue of superior weapons.



gambit said:


> The Arabs made no bones about such divisions.



You are right. The tinpot Arab dictators with their own little oil empire are being disingenuous. I never said that Israel is solely to blame for the current mess. The Arab regimes are equally guilty.



gambit said:


> This is a religious war and you are not fooling anyone.



I never denied that this is a religious war.
On the contrary, I fully acknowledge that this has become a religious war *but only because the Israelis made it one.*

Originally, it was a simple territorial conflict between two groups of people. It was the Israelis who injected religion into this debate. The core precept of Zionism is a "Jewish state". The Israelis did this for several reasons:

- the only justification of Israeli claim to the land is the Torah.
- bringing in the Bible assured the support of the powerful American Evangelical Christian constituency (Rapture and Jesus' return).
- it allows Israel to play the race/victim card by invoking anti-Semitism to silence any criticism.

It is unfortunate that the Arabs and the Muslims fell for this trap. This conflict should never have been against Jews -- only Zionists -- because there are Jews, even ultra-Orthodox rabbis, who are against Israel. ( Jews Not Zionists )

The other two Abrahamic faiths (Judaism and Christianity) are respected in Muslim belief as "people of the Book". There _were_ instances in the past when Muslims, including the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), were in conflict with Jews, but those were specific battle scenarios against specific Jewish tribes. Post-Israel, some Muslims have hijacked that history and deliberately misinterpreted Islamic writings to define a global, perpetual jihad against Jews. That is ridiculous. Muslims, Jews and Christians have a lot in common. Jews and Arabs share many cultural traditions and there is no reason why they shouldn't get along once they solve Israel/Palestine.

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## jalip

totally out of topic guys please stick to the topic and provide any intresting information regarding Tipu?


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## IceCold

gambit said:


> So the muslims' problems with Israel is that the Jews there object to the muslims' desire to erase the political entity known as 'Israel', kill any Jews who resist, and basically enslave any Jews that remain alive.



no actually thats the opposite case here. Israel's desire to erase any political entity known as Palestine, kill any muslim who resists it(Lebanon, Palestine massacre by Israel recently) and enslave any remaining muslims that remain alive. And yeah one more thing Muslims do not dare try to get nuclear technology even of it is for peaceful purpose as it is only the right of the west or Israel and those who try to obtain(Iran) will be bombed.

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## gambit

toxic_pus said:


> Well if it is indeed an effort at space launching, I would say that Pakistan is doing it wrong. *It is easier to masquerade an ICBM project as space program because this window dressing enables the entire research relating to ICBM,* to be done outside the scope of prying eyes and ears. Why would Pakistan want to do it the other way round. Declare a space program as ICBM project and draw unnecessary attention, and in the process create unnecessary flutter among powers that be?
> 
> So either it is a genuine ICBM project, which in itself may prove to be diplomatically costly, or it is just for domestic consumption. Or the report itself is not true.


And it will be even easier for the world to see through this feeble ploy. A valid space program vehicle is subject to the same ballistic mechanics as a valid weapons vehicle. Just as a 747 airliner must obey the same navigation principles as a bomber. You forget that the space program came from the missile program.


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## Developereo

gambit said:


> And it will be even easier for the world to see through this feeble ploy. A valid space program vehicle is subject to the same ballistic mechanics as a valid weapons vehicle. Just as a 747 airliner must obey the same navigation principles as a bomber. You forget that the space program came from the missile program.



Are you saying the world would object to Pakistan developing a SLV?


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## gambit

Developereo said:


> Are you saying the world would object to Pakistan developing a SLV?


As if the world would believe that is what it is claimed to be. Looky here...The world really have no choice but to leave Pakistan alone once that facade is made public. But it is a very thin mask.


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## Developereo

gambit said:


> As if the world would believe that is what it is claimed to be. Looky here...The world really have no choice but to leave Pakistan alone once that facade is made public. But it is a very thin mask.



Well, we can't walk on eggshells because of some people's paranoia.

Space should be open to everyone and Pakistan should pursue a peaceful space program, regardless of what anyone objects.

Although I agree that, just like civilian nuclear technology, some people will hype up the dual-use danger aspect to try and limit new entrants into the select club of space-capable countries.


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## ahf_nuke1

I want to see the test hearing this rumors for long time ...We need this for our security world have changed we do have visible and invisible enemies now we must strengthen our Missile and Space program and Insha allah we will.


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## mughaljee

I still remember the *"Crime" done by Isralies in Sabra and Shatila camp*, therefore i believe and strongly believe , believe like death, we can not live with Israel, they are the enemy of Muslims and we are not friend of them.


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## gambit

Developereo said:


> Well, we can't walk on eggshells because of some people's paranoia.


Some measure of paranoia is healthy and necessary.



Developereo said:


> Space should be open to everyone and Pakistan should pursue a peaceful space program, regardless of what anyone objects.
> 
> Although I agree that, just like civilian nuclear technology, some people will hype up the dual-use danger aspect to try and limit new entrants into the select club of space-capable countries.


Those 'space-capable' countries are so capable for several reasons. First is that some of them, like US or the Russians, became capable on our own, meaning we develop our capabilities in-house. Others, like Japan, became capable for being an ally with another space-capable country, like US. No one can really prevent Pakistan from developing an ICBM capability. An ICBM capability is more an immediate sort of need for Pakistan than being space-capable. So your dancing around the issue will be in vain. Pakistan can say the rocket program is obstensibly for 'peaceful' purposes, but like the Iranians with their nuclear programs, no one will buy that line.


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## SBD-3

Spitfighter said:


> FYI, Israel has nukes too. Why does Pakistan have a problem with Israel anyway?


its not about Pakistan having problem with Israel Its about Israel having problem with Pakistan just like all the other Muslim countries

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## luoshan

hasnain0099 said:


> its not about Pakistan having problem with Israel Its about *Israel having problem with Pakistan* just like all the other Muslim countries



Can someone elaborate on this?


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## TaimiKhan

Guys, i think the talk has gotten out of the real topic. 

Simple conclusion is, for Israel any Muslim country having nukes is a threat, reason simple, the IDF are very well equipped & superior fighting force and have the support of US. So conventionally there is no one around Israel to defeat it or challenge it. Now the questions of Nukes comes in, as nukes are the real danger for Israel, God forbid if a nuclear exchange does took place, the Muslim countries can withstand it as they have huge land mass, but Israel may not exist becoz they are very tinny in the land mass category. 

Leaving other factors constant  

As for Pakistan, it has a right to acquire any missile with any range, becoz we also do have many enemies disguised as friends. Past is a testament to this and in future we don't know what west can or will do. 

The western people supporting Israel or asking questions about Pakistan long range missile, can they tell me why Israel needs a 7000+KM range Jericho Missile ?? or the latest rumor of Jericho III missile with a range to target Asia, Europe and even can reach America itself. 

If Israel has only surrounding Muslim countries as enemies, why is it having & making such long range missiles which can target nearly all possible locations we can think of ?? And the people who run Israel are more hawkish then Muslims running their countries. 

So if Israel with its hawkish leadership can have long range missiles, whats the problem in Pakistan having them ?? 

And yea we shouldn't forget the nuclear proliferation which Israel did by helping the south african nuclear program in the 80s. 

West has concerns with our nuclear program and missiles & proliferation, and Israel being the most cruel & barbaric nation who did most brutal killings of human beings, having long range missiles, having a nuclear proliferation record is left to do what it wishes to ?? That's ironic. 

Pakistan has & deserves the full right to posses as many nukes & long range missiles as it wishes, becoz we have a dozen of enemies who say we are friends on the contrary which is not.

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## Developereo

gambit said:


> First is that some of them, like US or the Russians, became capable on our own, meaning we develop our capabilities in-house. Others, like Japan, became capable for being an ally with another space-capable country, like US.



The brains behind the US space program was Wernher Von Braun and the team of German scientists who built Hitler's V2 rockets.

The Russians also nabbed a few German scientists, but the US got the cream of the crop. Thus the Russian space program was more 'indigenous' than NASA.

Everybody else, including the French, Chinese and Indians copied from others.



gambit said:


> An ICBM capability is more an immediate sort of need for Pakistan than being space-capable. So your dancing around the issue will be in vain. Pakistan can say the rocket program is obstensibly for 'peaceful' purposes, but like the Iranians with their nuclear programs, no one will buy that line.



We will dance our way into space.

America can either prove its friendship to us by helping us, or deepen it's decline into irrelevance by trying to stop us in vain. Because there are other countries who will help us just fine. Despire fake and ineffective American temper tantrums.


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## Hyde

well, i guess there will not any further news about this topic just like what happened with "Russia agreed on civil nuclear technology with Pakistan". These are just a rumours and nothing concrete coming unless it is actually tested 

Just hope this is true but highly unlikely


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## arihant

Pakistan's enemy are under 2500 range. But developing 7K km missile always give edge to any relation. Firmly I am in favor of this development of this missile. It might also strengthen Pakistan position in the Space.


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## Arsalan

well, as i said earlier, let it be confirmed and i can give you a lot of reasons for its development. i mean this is all rubbish that with enemies within range with the 2500 Km misile why develop a 7000 Km one,, there are lot of things PA may have considered beide India as an enemy!!!

regards!


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## arihant

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well, as i said earlier, let it be confirmed and i can give you a lot of reasons for its development. i mean this is all rubbish that with enemies within range with the 2500 Km misile why develop a 7000 Km one,, there are lot of things PA may have considered beide India as an enemy!!!
> 
> regards!



Why under estimate threats from other countries.


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## gambit

Developereo said:


> The brains behind the US space program was Wernher Von Braun and the team of German scientists who built Hitler's V2 rockets.
> 
> The Russians also nabbed a few German scientists, but the US got the cream of the crop. Thus the Russian space program was more 'indigenous' than NASA.
> 
> Everybody else, including the French, Chinese and Indians copied from others.


I fully expected you to bring up von Braun and you did not disappoint. It is the typical response of those who would seek to diminish the main point by pecking at the minutae. The US is a land composed of immigrants and those immigrants, along with their descendants, worked with everyone to produce. You cannot take credit away from the country simply by pointing out the original ethnicities of the people who worked hard to exploit the native resources, natural and human, to create all these technological advances.



Developereo said:


> We will dance our way into space.
> 
> America can either prove its friendship to us by helping us, or *deepen it's decline into irrelevance* by trying to stop us in vain. Because there are other countries who will help us just fine. Despire fake and ineffective American temper tantrums.




The US Space Shuttle fleet is being retired due to age. Show me a single country that has its replacement. Do not bring up the Russians. They have a working launch method that is iinferior, expendable launch vehicles (ELV) while the Space Shuttle is reusable (RLV). Will Pakistan step up? If we have to regress back to using ELV, and we will have to, it will be because of financial, not technological reasons. Until anyone else can offer a working advancement of the Space Shuttle, an RLV that is both a launch vehicle as well as a functioning space station by itself, the US remain the leader in this aspect of space exploration.

Of course, you can always suck on the intellectual lollipop of focusing on how many non-whites are there in NASA in trying to push US along to our 'irrelevance'.


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## mhacsan

gambit said:


> I fully expected you to bring up von Braun and you did not disappoint. It is the typical response of those who would seek to diminish the main point by pecking at the minutae. The US is a land composed of immigrants and those immigrants, along with their descendants, worked with everyone to produce. You cannot take credit away from the country simply by pointing out the original ethnicities of the people who worked hard to exploit the native resources, natural and human, to create all these technological advances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The US Space Shuttle fleet is being retired due to age. Show me a single country that has its replacement. Do not bring up the Russians. They have a working launch method that is iinferior, expendable launch vehicles (ELV) while the Space Shuttle is reusable (RLV). Will Pakistan step up? If we have to regress back to using ELV, and we will have to, it will be because of financial, not technological reasons. Until anyone else can offer a working advancement of the Space Shuttle, an RLV that is both a launch vehicle as well as a functioning space station by itself, the US remain the leader in this aspect of space exploration.
> 
> Of course, you can always suck on the intellectual lollipop of focusing on how many non-whites are there in NASA in trying to push US along to our 'irrelevance'.



Have you got same explanations to US Atomic programme? Mate US is a super power but dont get carried away with it, there are underlying facts u cant deny


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## gambit

hacsan said:


> Have you got same explanations to US Atomic programme? Mate US is a super power but dont get carried away with it, there are underlying facts u cant deny


Mate...You yourself can be an Einsteinian genius but if the land you are living in does not have the necessary techological, economic and other foundations, your genius will be for naught. Are Russians stupid? No...But how much of the Soviet space program have benefited the ordinary Russians? Now take a look at the US space program and see how much life conveniences, from Tang the powdered orange juice to the microwave oven and uncounted other off-shoots that the American business entrepreneurs exploited and advances the overall technological standing of America. You cannot diminish these accomplishments by zeroing in on the skin color of the person who made the discovery or the invention. It is pure childishness.


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## SBD-3

gambit said:


> I fully expected you to bring up von Braun and you did not disappoint. It is the typical response of those who would seek to diminish the main point by pecking at the minutae. The US is a land composed of immigrants and those immigrants, along with their descendants, worked with everyone to produce. You cannot take credit away from the country simply by pointing out the original ethnicities of the people who worked hard to exploit the native resources, natural and human, to create all these technological advances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The US Space Shuttle fleet is being retired due to age. Show me a single country that has its replacement. Do not bring up the Russians. They have a working launch method that is iinferior, expendable launch vehicles (ELV) while the Space Shuttle is reusable (RLV). Will Pakistan step up? If we have to regress back to using ELV, and we will have to, it will be because of financial, not technological reasons. Until anyone else can offer a working advancement of the Space Shuttle, an RLV that is both a launch vehicle as well as a functioning space station by itself, the US remain the leader in this aspect of space exploration.
> 
> Of course, you can always suck on the intellectual lollipop of focusing on how many non-whites are there in NASA in trying to push US along to our 'irrelevance'.



with due respect, US established all of its current industrial empire with industrial espionage from UK.We all know as well that how US got this land who owned this land who developed the nuke tech of US


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## Silent observer

guys, we are going off the topic, please, kindly, discuss pakistan s 7000 km missile not US space and nuclear programme. 

i have some questions regrading the topic and that are:

at this stage, when we are economically unstable, and at war in the tribal areas, even if we have this ICBM capability of 7000km range in our arsinal (i mean untested in open) will our leaders (political and forces both) agree to test it? and second should we do the test or wait like we waited for the right time as we did for nuclear tests? opinions please

moreover, please keep another thing in mind also while answering this question and that is we are also in the middle of many defence deals with US (F16, may be predator, frigates etc) and europe (sub, may be nuclear deal with france). if this test result in sanctions as in past, then may be we will see history repeating itself in case of these defence deals.


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## Developereo

gambit said:


> I fully expected you to bring up von Braun and you did not disappoint. It is the typical response of those who would seek to diminish the main point by pecking at the minutae. The US is a land composed of immigrants and those immigrants, along with their descendants, worked with everyone to produce. You cannot take credit away from the country simply by pointing out the original ethnicities of the people who worked hard to exploit the native resources, natural and human, to create all these technological advances.



A silly attempt to dance around the topic with predictable and irrelevant cliches. These immigrants did not come to the American shores with empty pockets and work their way into the space program. They were grabbed by the US *precisely* because of their pre-existing knowledge. By your logic, if Pakistan abducted the top NASA scientists and had them develop its space program, then that program would be 'fully indigenous'.



gambit said:


> The US Space Shuttle fleet is being retired due to age. Show me a single country that has its replacement. Do not bring up the Russians. They have a working launch method that is iinferior, expendable launch vehicles (ELV) while the Space Shuttle is reusable (RLV). Will Pakistan step up? If we have to regress back to using ELV, and we will have to, it will be because of financial, not technological reasons. Until anyone else can offer a working advancement of the Space Shuttle, an RLV that is both a launch vehicle as well as a functioning space station by itself, the US remain the leader in this aspect of space exploration.



The US is becoming irrelevant in the sense that it's decision to help is no longer necessary. There are other countries, notably France and China, who are more than happy to help countries *especially* against the US wishes. We are not talking about space shuttles or missions to Saturn. The first step for Pakistan would be a SLV, for which there is plenty of help available. If the US helps, good. If not, it is irrelevant.



gambit said:


> Of course, you can always suck on the intellectual lollipop of focusing on how many non-whites are there in NASA in trying to push US along to our 'irrelevance'.



Spare me your pathetic attempt to turn this into a racial discussion. I have never presented this as a white v/s non-white issue.


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## gambit

Developereo said:


> A silly attempt to dance around the topic with predictable and irrelevant cliches. These immigrants did not come to the American shores with empty pockets and work their way into the space program. They were grabbed by the US *precisely* because of their pre-existing knowledge. By your logic, if Pakistan abducted the top NASA scientists and had them develop its space program, *then that program would be 'fully indigenous'.*


Of course it would be, because the program would contain Pakistani scientists, engineers, technicians, laborers and assorted resources within Pakistan. Who said that an indigenous program must begin with an indigenous idea?





Developereo said:


> The US is becoming irrelevant in the sense that *it's decision to help is no longer necessary.* There are other countries, notably France and China, who are more than happy to help countries *especially* against the US wishes. We are not talking about space shuttles or missions to Saturn. The first step for Pakistan would be a SLV, for which there is plenty of help available. If the US helps, good. If not, it is irrelevant.


Right...As if our decision to help was relevant to begin with. When Pakistan decided to embark on a path to become a nuclear weapons state, was the US consulted for technical assistance? Likewise here, if Pakistan is determined to become an ICBM power, under the paper thin disguise of a 'space program'...har...har...good one...then our assistance is irrelevant anyway.



Developereo said:


> Spare me your pathetic attempt to *turn this into a racial discussion*. I have never presented this as a white v/s non-white issue.


But bringing up the ethnicity is not...?


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## Developereo

gambit said:


> Of course it would be, because the program would contain Pakistani scientists, engineers, technicians, laborers and assorted resources within Pakistan. Who said that an indigenous program must begin with an indigenous idea?



I was responding to your claim that the US (and Russia) became capable on their own and developed their capabilities in-house. My point was that the US built upon the work done by Germany (which built upon Goddard's work). Of course everybody builds upon everybody else's work, so it becomes a semantic issue where do you draw the line and claim something as original work.



gambit said:


> Right...As if our decision to help was relevant to begin with. When Pakistan decided to embark on a path to become a nuclear weapons state, was the US consulted for technical assistance? Likewise here, if Pakistan is determined to become an ICBM power, under the paper thin disguise of a 'space program'...har...har...good one...then our assistance is irrelevant anyway.



Glad you agree that the US is irrelevant in this matter.



gambit said:


> But bringing up the ethnicity is not...?



Where did I bring up ethnicity?


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## gambit

Developereo said:


> I was responding to your claim that the US (and Russia) became capable on their own and developed their capabilities in-house. My point was that the US built upon the work done by Germany (which built upon Goddard's work). Of course everybody builds upon everybody else's work, so *it becomes a semantic issue* where do you draw the line and claim something as original work.


Really...? Imagine the uproar from muslims if I used that line of argument about past scientific accomplishments by historical muslims.

An idea is dead if no one act upon it, regardless of the origins of that idea. That said, the people that acted upon the idea, expanded on it, exploited it for their own benefits, and systematically improve upon it, then the credit rightly goes to that people, or that country. No semantics there, just reality.

The US did not import whole components, assembled them and launch the rockets. The US and the Soviets studied whatever that was produced before them, educate their own peoples, used the natural and human resources of their countries, and independently produced their own space programs. Same for nuclear, even if the Soviets stole the designs for the atom bombs from US, they managed to understand better its functions and its foundations and create their own nuclear reactors, warheads and weaponry. This is not the same as Iraq calling upon France (or whoever) and buying whole components, hiring foreign engineers and even technicians, import raw and refined materials, to build a nuclear reactor. That is not an indigenous program. A truly indigenous program of any kind of technology should be self sustaining.



Developereo said:


> Glad you agree that the US is irrelevant in this matter.


As if we really care if Pakistan ask US for help.



Developereo said:


> Where did I bring up ethnicity?


When you brought up the fact that the US space program had its origin from German scientists. Ethnicity, nationality or race, it does not matter. When you try to diminish US accomplishments by pointing out the original nationality or ethnicity of the inventor, it is a sign of desperation.

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## Silent observer

Silent observer said:


> guys, we are going off the topic, please, kindly, discuss pakistan s 7000 km missile not US space and nuclear programme.
> 
> i have some questions regrading the topic and that are:
> 
> at this stage, when we are economically unstable, and at war in the tribal areas, even if we have this ICBM capability of 7000km range in our arsinal (i mean untested in open) will our leaders (political and forces both) agree to test it? and second should we do the test or wait like we waited for the right time as we did for nuclear tests? opinions please
> 
> moreover, please keep another thing in mind also while answering this question and that is we are also in the middle of many defence deals with US (F16, may be predator, frigates etc) and europe (sub, may be nuclear deal with france). if this test result in sanctions as in past, then may be we will see history repeating itself in case of these defence deals.



guys, does it matter now whther US or russia or anyother country s space, missile or nuclear programme was indigenous or not. the fact is that these countries have a developed these programme and they are using it for their own good. US and Russia were the first 2 countries to start their space programme indigineouly or somehow. there is no point in discussing the things of the past. 

lets come back to the topic now and can someone please answer my question:

at this stage when Pakistan is economically unstable and at war in the tribal areas, even if we have this ICBM capability of 7000km range in our arsinal will the leaders of Pakistan agree to test it? and second should Pakistan do the test or wait like it had waited for the right time for nuclear tests? opinions please

moreover, please keep another thing in mind while answering this question and that is we are also in the middle of many defence deals with US (F16, may be predator, frigates etc) and europe (sub, may be nuclear deal with france). if this test result in sanctions as in past, then may be we will see history repeating itself in case of these defence deals (stopping of F16 delivery etc)

Thanks in advance

regards


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## Hyde

all i wish is, We send our shuttle on the Moon in my life

Don't care after i die 

btw i am 21


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## SBD-3

Mr X said:


> all i wish is, We send our shuttle on the Moon in my life
> 
> Don't care after i die
> 
> btw i am 21



do we need to build a shuttle? US can do this because they afford to.We are a different story


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## gambit

Silent observer said:


> guys, *does it matter now whther US or russia or anyother country s space, missile or nuclear programme was indigenous or not.* the fact is that these countries have a developed these programme and they are using it for their own good. US and Russia were the first 2 countries to start their space programme indigineouly or somehow. there is no point in discussing the things of the past.


Of course it does to many who are desperate to downplay US accomplishments in any way possible. Else they would not be so quick to point out the ethnicities and race of the prominent figures in US technology progress.



Silent observer said:


> lets come back to the topic now and can someone please answer my question:
> 
> at this stage when Pakistan is economically unstable and at war in the tribal areas, even if we have this ICBM capability of 7000km range in our arsinal will the leaders of Pakistan agree to test it? and second should Pakistan do the test or wait like it had waited for the right time for nuclear tests? opinions please


I pointed out several pages back that a missile is essentially a throwaway weapon. That mean every time a missile is launched, there is an expectation that the weapon must be reasonably accurate at the other end -- the target end. This is called return-on-investment (ROI) in moneyspeak. Petty despots are more suspicious of their immediate neighbors than of any potential enemy thousands of km away. In a region filled with petty despots, can Pakistan really afford the luxury of developing a nuclear tipped ICBM instead of a battlefield level ballistic missile with better accuracy, obviating the need for a nuclear warhead, hence far less expensive with a conventional warhead that will ensure a good ROI? Is the prestige, aka 'bragging rights', of an ICBM worth it?


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## Developereo

gambit said:


> Really...? Imagine the uproar from muslims if I used that line of argument about past scientific accomplishments by historical muslims.



Neither you not I can speak for "all Muslims" so spare me the hyperbole. I already said that all knowledge builds upon another. The Europeans built upon the Muslims, who built upon the Chinese and Greeks, who built upon the Persians and Egyptians, etc.



gambit said:


> An idea is dead if no one act upon it, regardless of the origins of that idea. That said, the people that acted upon the idea, expanded on it, exploited it for their own benefits, and systematically improve upon it, then the credit rightly goes to that people, or that country. No semantics there, just reality.



The V2 rocket was far from dead. The US cherry picked scientists and technology from a state-of-the-art, live German program and built upon it. Not just ideas, not research papers, real live equipment and people stolen from the Germans.



gambit said:


> The US did not import whole components, assembled them and launch the rockets. The US and the Soviets studied whatever that was produced before them, educate their own peoples, used the natural and human resources of their countries, and independently produced their own space programs. Same for nuclear, even if the Soviets stole the designs for the atom bombs from US, they managed to understand better its functions and its foundations and create their own nuclear reactors, warheads and weaponry.



I agree with this part.



gambit said:


> As if we really care if Pakistan ask US for help.



You care that Pakistan gets it's space program *despite* US objections. The temper tantrum about Pakistan's nuclear program is proof enough. As much as you deny it, the US military mindset it still geared in the good ol' days when the US could dictate it's way around the world. Those days may live on in US military barracks and on Fox News, but the rest of the world (and the new US administration) has moved on. It's time the Fox News crowd got with the program.



gambit said:


> When you brought up the fact that the US space program had its origin from German scientists. Ethnicity, nationality or race, it does not matter. When you try to diminish US accomplishments by pointing out the original nationality or ethnicity of the inventor, it is a sign of desperation.



I brought up nationality. Nationality has nothing to do with ethnicity or race. I think you better stop there instead of digging yourself in deeper.


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## gambit

Developereo said:


> Neither you not I can speak for "all Muslims" so spare me the hyperbole. I already said that all knowledge builds upon another. The Europeans built upon the Muslims, who built upon the Chinese and Greeks, who built upon the Persians and Egyptians, etc.


I said nothing about who speaks for whom. I merely pointed out that your admission is a rarity among muslims.



Developereo said:


> The V2 rocket was far from dead. The US cherry picked scientists and technology from a state-of-the-art, live German program and built upon it. Not just ideas, not research papers, real live equipment and people stolen from the Germans.


So how does this disprove the argument that the US space program is indigenous? It does not. You agreed that the US import neither raw nor refined resources to improve its already existing rocket program. Do not play with words with me about a rocket is not part of a space program. 



Developereo said:


> You care that Pakistan gets it's space program *despite* US objections. The temper tantrum about Pakistan's nuclear program is proof enough.


I only care to expose the tissue thin story that Pakistan is developing a 'space program' when the intent is to develop an ICBM capability. The *CLANDESTINE* nuclear weapons program is supportive of that doubt.



Developereo said:


> As much as you deny it, the US military mindset it still geared in the good ol' days when the US could dictate it's way around the world. Those days may live on in US military barracks and on Fox News, but the rest of the world (and the new US administration) has moved on. It's time the Fox News crowd got with the program.


No need to openly 'dictate'. The defeat and invasion of two countries in the ME, plus our technological superiority in warfare, is enough to persuade many to rethink their foreign policies.



Developereo said:


> I brought up nationality. *Nationality has nothing to do with ethnicity or race.* I think you better stop there instead of digging yourself in deeper.


Utter BS. You need to take an anthropology class. While nationality does not determine the racial or ethnic component of a person, those two components often help establish initial social and cultural identity.


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## Developereo

gambit said:


> Utter BS. You need to take an anthropology class. While nationality does not determine the racial or ethnic component of a person, those two components often help establish initial social and cultural identity.



Let me repeat: Nationality has nothing to do with ethnicity or race. It's ironic that you, of all people, should dispute that, since the US is perhaps the best example of a multiracial society. When someone says that an American did such-and-such, there is no way to know from that statement alone if that person is white, black, hispanic, native american, asian, indian, etc.


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## Hyde

hasnain0099 said:


> do we need to build a shuttle? US can do this because they afford to.We are a different story



may be not now but after 40 years? I said In My Life. . . . And yes we will need it in 2050


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## asad ikram

first of all to all the great pakistanies ,if this project completes in next upcomming two years or ...at least five years .it will be major and brilliant landmark in the history of pakistan.i have reads all the posts in which some says its in progress and some say that it maytake time.first of all the foreign guys .listen the pakistan media is so responbile and have all freedom and most have solid sources .so it should be clear in the mind of all guys that its a solid news .now as to compare with india and other enemies of pakistan......u should know that who is supplying weapons and all other stuff in norther and balcohistan province so their mouth will be shutup with this project. and as compare to india pakistan missile system is so intensive and intelligent that it never fails when it is tested as indian missiles dropback to ground with all moscow and other countries supportso it will be astep to make pakistan a super power in south asia .

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## Enigma SIG

gambit said:


> No need to openly 'dictate'. The defeat and invasion of two countries in the ME, plus our technological superiority in warfare, is enough to persuade many to rethink their foreign policies.



Clearly the americans are warmongering fanatics bent on satisfying the never filling belly of their american war machine; your above statement proves it...


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## arihant

Welcome to DF. If you referring anything please use neutral source. 



asad ikram said:


> u should know that who is supplying weapons and all other stuff in norther and balcohistan province so their mouth will be shutup with this project



So, 7000 km missile posses threat to "one who" is supplying weapons to Baluchistan. You need some more knowledge about defense and the weapons. So just try scroll around other threads before saying what just you have heard from "your" source.


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## asad ikram

first of all indian buddy .u and we know that war can not be happen between indian and pakistan but a cold war may be or has been strated .so u know better from this..


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## arihant

You still didn't understood truly but I respect your cool reply. 

I wanted to tell you that India has width of 2500 km. and Pakistan has shaheen II which could easily target all over India. In response India has Brahmos (300 km) Agni I (750 km) and Agni II (2500 KM) and Agni VI (3500). Pakistan has width of by most 500-750 Km.

So, everything is reachable. So, there is no point in discussing "India, Pakistan & 7000 km range missile). If its 7000 km range missile, it just handful tool to make sure even China remains your friend forever.


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## EagleEyes

Nice try to drag China into Pakistan's potential threat, but it is not happening. Pakistan will maintain nuclear missile edge versus India, as it is a last military deterrence of Pakistan.


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## arihant

WebMaster said:


> Nice try to drag China into Pakistan's potential threat, but it is not happening. Pakistan will maintain nuclear missile edge versus India, as it is a last military deterrence of Pakistan.



Do you think India has potential threat from Russia. But still making anything more than 5000 Km will make sure that no one dare to make you fool on real ground.


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## EagleEyes

arihant said:


> Do you think India has potential threat from Russia. But still making anything more than 5000 Km will make sure that no one dare to make you fool on real ground.


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## asad ikram

u didnt understand my reply .my means to say is that not only india is involving in destabilize pakistan may be it is a game by players of india,russia,usa,israel as pakistan has only the islamic country who dares to compete with any one as in swat .think that in afganistan usa forces are fighting there since almost 9 years but they didnt control on them but our great pak army has control all mother**** in one year on those land who has vast trees and very complex path to find and kill them but usa forces dnt control so the main purpose will be to see the play of power to those who want to destablize pakistan...

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## arihant

WebMaster said:


>



I have intention to point for both India and Pakistan to build ICBM. India doesn't have enemy beyond 4000, Pakistan doesn't have beyond 2500 but still 7000 Km gives you sharp edge against any country.

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## arihant

asad ikram said:


> u didnt understand my reply .my means to say is that not only india is involving in destabilize pakistan may be it is a game by players of india,russia,usa,israel as pakistan has only the islamic country who dares to compete with any one as in swat .think that in afganistan usa forces are fighting there since almost 9 years but they didnt control on them but our great pak army has control all mother**** in one year on those land who has vast trees and very complex path to find and kill them but usa forces dnt control so the main purpose will be to see the play of power to those who want to destablize pakistan...



India, Israel are under your missile range. If you mean USA, then sorry brother you might need at least 12000 Km missile. For Russia 7000 Km is enough.


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## asad ikram

buddy if 7000 km can be made then to to increase 5000 km is not diifficult for our brilliant scientist ,engineers,labours,......
PAKISTAN ATOMIC commision will be always there

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## TaimiKhan

Man this thread is going nuts  

The news has not been confirmed by any reliable source, the media published a news item, who have the tendency to post by adding 'mirch masala' to spice it up. 

Which country jumps to making a 7000KM range missile from 3000+Km missile which it just made ??? Let a 4000+ range missile come, then 5000+, then 6000+ and then you can think of a 7000+KM range missile. 

Kindly think about the news item first,its authenticity, we all are discussing about a thing, which as per past record of development of our missile program is at least a decade away. 

Arihant Sir, in one of my previous post in this thread, i mentioned Israel Jericho missile, whose latest version has a 7000+KM range and can easily target asia, europe & even can reach the american continent. So if Israel has enemies only around itself, why does it needs missile which can target whole of asia, europe & america ??? 
Sometimes the enemy is not just across the border, plus you never know which friend today becomes an enemy of future. So for nations which can have missiles & the longer they are, make up a deterrence for any future possible outcome. India has the right to make them as it has regional power & may be a future global power ambitions. And for Pakistan, they are also necessary without taking into context which nations are friends and which are not. 

And i do hope more discussion on this topic is closed as it has no value for the time being as the authenticity of this news item is not confirmed nor reliable.

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## arihant

taimikhan said:


> Arihant Sir, in one of my previous post in this thread, i mentioned Israel Jericho missile, whose latest version has a 7000+KM range and can easily target asia, europe & even can reach the american continent. So if Israel has enemies only around itself, why does it needs missile which can target whole of asia, europe & america ???
> Sometimes the enemy is not just across the border, plus you never know which friend today becomes an enemy of future. So for nations which can have missiles & the longer they are, make up a deterrence for any future possible outcome. India has the right to make them as it has regional power & may be a future global power ambitions. And for Pakistan, they are also necessary without taking into context which nations are friends and which are not.
> 
> And i do hope more discussion on this topic is closed as it has no value for the time being as the authenticity of this news item is not confirmed nor reliable.



Hopefully, other Pakistani too can understand. No one knows who is your future enemy. The British who were our enemy earlier are now our friend. So, it's extremely negligence to believe in present.

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## TaimiKhan

arihant said:


> Hopefully, other Pakistani too can understand. No one knows who is your future enemy. The British who were our enemy earlier are now our friend. So, it's extremely negligence to believe in present.



Yups, in today's world its not about friendships from the heart, its globalization and nations make friends for their own purposes. 

US wants to counter china and for its defense industries prosperity it is now selling weapons to India. Many other examples there to quote, so crux is no country is a friend, everyone has its own intentions and ambitions.

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## arihant

taimikhan said:


> Yups, in today's world its not about friendships from the heart, its globalization and nations make friends for their own purposes.
> 
> US wants to counter china and for its defense industries prosperity it is now selling weapons to India. Many other examples there to quote, so crux is no country is a friend, everyone has its own intentions and ambitions.



Even Russia sells weapons to China even though their is Land Dispute with them. USA wants to counter China, but USA itself is one of the largest importer of Chinese Products. So, in real no one knows who is your enemy. It likes continue with whatever happening.

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## grey boy 2

arihant said:


> Even Russia sells weapons to China even though their is Land Dispute with them. USA wants to counter China, but USA itself is one of the largest importer of Chinese Products. So, in real no one knows who is your enemy. It likes continue with whatever happening.



Please do some reseach before shooting trash,

China had no more border issue with Russia!

big5.fmprc.gov.cn/gate/big5/us.china...org/.../t198291.htm -

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## arihant

grey boy 2 said:


> Please do some reseach before shooting trash,
> 
> China had no more border issue with Russia!
> 
> big5.fmprc.gov.cn/gate/big5/us.china...org/.../t198291.htm -



Ya, it might not have. Thanks anyway.


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## moha199

gambit said:


> So the muslims' problems with Israel is that the Jews there object to the muslims' desire to erase the political entity known as 'Israel', kill any Jews who resist, and basically enslave any Jews that remain alive.


I would expect better then that unless Mr Bush has visited you in your sleep, "a bit harsh reply but i couldn't help it" since you are asking funny questions. What Israel is doing all against muslims so i have counter question what Israel's plan? Wipe off Muslim countries and control more land since jews are growing and Israel is small for them? So Israel has right to take over muslim countries? Grow up and i believe you have but not enough.... If Israel is acting the way it is, Trust me it will be wiped off by either Pakistan or USA.... See you are a kind who just watch Fox and CNN. Do you even know how many times Israel tried to use USA for her wars against muslim countries? How many times Israel has Passed on our weapons to the 3rd world countries? with out our will. Israel is a spiritual Country under their God and today or later their God will be up against USA then i should ask you, What should we Americans do to counter Israel. Israel is no ones Friend. Go study about Israel since i have and i know what iam talking about and you find out yourself by turning some pages about if..... Stop fooling yourself with Israel being so innocent when Israel is the one who has taken over lands of other not Muslim Countries!

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## SBD-3

moha199 said:


> I would expect better then that unless Mr Bush has visited you in your sleep, "a bit harsh reply but i couldn't help it" since you are asking funny questions. What Israel is doing all against muslims so i have counter question what Israel's plan? Wipe off Muslim countries and control more land since jews are growing and Israel is small for them? So Israel has right to take over muslim countries? Grow up and i believe you have but not enough.... If Israel is acting the way it is, Trust me it will be wiped off by either Pakistan or USA.... See you are a kind who just watch Fox and CNN. Do you even know how many times Israel tried to use USA for her wars against muslim countries? How many times Israel has Passed on our weapons to the 3rd world countries? with out our will. Israel is a spiritual Country under their God and today or later their God will be up against USA then i should ask you, What should we Americans do to counter Israel. Israel is no ones Friend. Go study about Israel since i have and i know what iam talking about and you find out yourself by turning some pages about if..... Stop fooling yourself with Israel being so innocent when Israel is the one who has taken over lands of other not Muslim Countries!


Israel bows no one.They take it as their right to receive billions of USDs in aid they do what ever they want to do and how do they tame US? well they support the presidential candidates and democrats financially in their campaigns.They have control over print media of US so they can manipulate the US mindset the Jews in US take them as Israel they would support Israel in case of any confrontation any Jew any where in world is an Israeli not German, Not French, Not British even though born and raised on these countries resources.Secondly about the expansion if you would see the Israeli Flag 


it shows their ambition it looks like this 
____________________________________
____________________________________(The Euphrates) 



David Star (The government of David)



____________________________________
____________________________________ (The Nile)
I hope that would answer your question why do they want to expand and what is their aim


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## Comet

If Pakistan can make 7000 km range Missile, can Pakistan launch a satellite?


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## arihant

umairp said:


> If Pakistan can make 7000 km range Missile, can Pakistan launch a satellite?



Concept is very simple.

If you can launch satellite to middle orbit then yes, one can make ICBM Missile easily within few years on the condition that earlier missiles IRBM were totally homemade.

So, first of all you have create rockets which are capable of placing satellite in middle orbit, then one can think about range of above 5000 Km missile.

For you information, North Korea tried to launch satellite in the middle orbit to test the range which ultimately failed.

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## Munir

Well, you need certain engines to get there... IF you can build those engines you can shoot decent load to other continents...


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## Y2A

some would say we do not need any ICBM, but i would say *bettter to have it when you don't need it, rather then you need it and you don't have it.*

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## BlackPearll

Pakistan should concentrate on launching it's own satelite to enter in space arena instead of launching ICBM's. SLV's are enough to show the world that you could put anything anywhere on over this globe. Making an ICBM is waste of resources and money in today's age. This world is very competative and pakistan has lots of catching up to do. But pakistan has a choice of some smart leaps and taking it step further instead of standing in the same line with other's. 
"Some got something to show, some got something they could do".

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## Comet

I have heard something about launching a satellite in orbit by 2010.


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## Peshwa

Y2A said:


> some would say we do not need any ICBM, but i would say *bettter to have it when you don't need it, rather then you need it and you don't have it.*



Testing an ICBM is like opening Pandora's box.....Pakistan will be in a heap of trouble from the international community.....

Take the example of North Korea......The people there are seriously eating grass to support the nuclear and missile program....

Besides, Pakistan hardly has any enemies other than India that it cannot repel with conventional weapons and the current list of Pak missiles should be suffice for Indian assault

There really is no need for an ICBM.....It will become an "Aa Bail Mujhe maar" situation!!


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## Comet

Peshwa said:


> Testing an ICBM is like opening Pandora's box.....Pakistan will be in a heap of trouble from the international community.....
> 
> Take the example of North Korea......The people there are seriously eating grass to support the nuclear and missile program....
> 
> Besides, Pakistan hardly has any enemies other than India that it cannot repel with conventional weapons and the current list of Pak missiles should be suffice for Indian assault
> 
> There really is no need for an ICBM.....It will become an "Aa Bail Mujhe maar" situation!!



I think you are right. As mentioned earlier in the post, Pakistan should opt for satellite launching instead of ICBM.


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## RazorMC

SLV is much preferred since it can boost military intelligence gathering and promote scientific achievements.

SLV technology can enable us to create ICBMs but not the other way around.

Anyways, ICBMs may soon become outdated once laser technology advances in 20-30 years.


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## gambit

razormc said:


> SLV is much preferred since it can boost military intelligence gathering and promote scientific achievements.
> 
> SLV technology can enable us to create ICBMs but not the other way around.
> 
> Anyways, *ICBMs may soon become outdated once laser technology advances in 20-30 years*.


That is a very bad argument. Assuming this is true, that we will have 'Star Wars' type energy weapons system that can destroy an ICBM before it reaches orbit, how many countries will be able to afford this new technology? Responsible military planning take into consideration current *ATTAINABLE* technology and this mean asking if the country can build or purchase, after that can the country support it through sustainable deployment. This is why the world have grossly disparate military capabilities. Immediate neighbors who are hostile to each other can attempt to outspend each other, bankrupting their economies in the process.


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## PakShaheen79

Peshwa said:


> Testing an ICBM is like opening Pandora's box.....Pakistan will be in a heap of trouble from the international community.....
> 
> Take the example of North Korea......The people there are seriously eating grass to support the nuclear and missile program....
> 
> Besides, Pakistan hardly has any enemies other than India that it cannot repel with conventional weapons and the current list of Pak missiles should be suffice for Indian assault
> 
> There really is no need for an ICBM.....It will become an "Aa Bail Mujhe maar" situation!!



I think Pakistan MUST test one just to make sure that it has capability to making ICBMs if needed in future. I am not agree that India is only enemy of Pakistan. I foresee Israel a much more bigger threat for Pakistan and Israel hold US in her hands against Pakistan so Pakistan do need ICBMs in a way.


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## EvoluXon

those who r sayin that pakistan doesnt need ICBM jus bcoz its current missile can cover whole India now lets suppose that India disintegrates in to 30 independant states and threat 4 pakistan from India vanishes U cant guarantee that after India no body will harm you even Russia can wake up and tries to take revenge of its disintegration against Pakistan then we will need ICBM so anything that guarantees our existence from anyone then it shuld b in our arsenal.

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## arihant

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think Pakistan MUST test one just to make sure that it has capability to making ICBMs if needed in future. I am not agree that India is only enemy of Pakistan. I foresee Israel a much more bigger threat for Pakistan and Israel hold US in her hands against Pakistan so Pakistan do need ICBMs in a way.



Israel is within reach of Pakistan. It is not more than 2000 km.



Faixan_Hashmee said:


> those who r sayin that pakistan doesnt need ICBM jus bcoz its current missile can cover whole India now lets suppose that India disintegrates in to 30 independant states and threat 4 pakistan from India vanishes U cant guarantee that after India no body will harm you even Russia can wake up and tries to take revenge of its disintegration against Pakistan then we will need ICBM so anything that guarantees our existence from anyone then it shuld b in our arsenal.



Ya possibly Pakistan disintegrates into 7 states (Baluchistan, Jinnapur, Sindhistan, FATA, SWATistan, Northern Areas, Punjabistan and may be one left is Islamabad and there remains no pakistan so why Pakistan needs ICBM when existence of itself is not seen. Guy, you are making fool to yourself creating trolling stories of Ziad Bhai. Talk rationally and you will get answer rationally.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

arihant said:


> Israel is within reach of Pakistan. It is not more than 2000 km.
> 
> 
> 
> Ya possibly Pakistan disintegrates into 7 states (Baluchistan, Jinnapur, Sindhistan, FATA, SWATistan, Northern Areas, Punjabistan and may be one left is Islamabad and there remains no pakistan so why Pakistan needs ICBM when existence of itself is not seen. Guy, you are making fool to yourself creating trolling stories of Ziad Bhai. Talk rationally and you will get answer rationally.



Bakistanis have a common (native) language, Urdu that creates a common glue holding them together. Bharatis don't have a common (native) language. Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.


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## Y2A

Peshwa said:


> Testing an ICBM is like opening Pandora's box.....Pakistan will be in a heap of trouble from the international community.....
> 
> Take the example of North Korea......The people there are seriously eating grass to support the nuclear and missile program....
> 
> Besides, Pakistan hardly has any enemies other than India that it cannot repel with conventional weapons and the current list of Pak missiles should be suffice for Indian assault
> 
> There really is no need for an ICBM.....It will become an "Aa Bail Mujhe maar" situation!!


Notional interests do not remain the same and so as Friends and enemies, today's "MASTERS" are quite "fit" to become the "potential" destination of an ICBM.

Pakistan is on the verge of dual with US, even isarail has threatened to attack the Pakistani Nuclear Installations on several occasions, keeping these factors in mind, having an ICBM is more the worthy .

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## Y2A

arihant said:


> Ya possibly Pakistan disintegrates into 7 states (Baluchistan, Jinnapur, Sindhistan, FATA, SWATistan, Northern Areas, Punjabistan and may be one left is Islamabad and there remains no pakistan so why Pakistan needs ICBM when existence of itself is not seen. Guy, you are making fool to yourself creating trolling stories of Ziad Bhai. Talk rationally and you will get answer rationally.



If i put my self in your shoes, I'll be more concern about the erupting situation of seven sisters (Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, forgot the last one) of India.

cut the BS before asking others to talk rationally, how long you guys want to suffer more of this Pakistan-phobia ?


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## Kompromat

Faixan_Hashmee said:


> those who r sayin that pakistan doesnt need ICBM jus bcoz its current missile can cover whole India now lets suppose that India disintegrates in to 30 independant states and threat 4 pakistan from India vanishes U cant guarantee that after India no body will harm you even Russia can wake up and tries to take revenge of its disintegration against Pakistan then we will need ICBM so anything that guarantees our existence from anyone then it shuld b in our arsenal.





Hello every one , i have been reading through this Thread for a long time

I think Pakistan Must develop & well develop its ICBM Capibility.
Reasons are as under according to my personal view:

Pakistan would be able to hit more high value targets and potential threats within a wide range.

Other enimies than India would have to think 100 times before they try to bring any aggression to us.

Pakistan will stand high in Islamic Ummah & they will feel a bit more secure

India would develop its strategic assets in future Far away from its borders , Pakistan would be able to take'em Out.

It will kick start Its Space Industry , and we are going to put 2 satellites By 2011 Inshallah.

it would have a phychological impact on any aggressor nation .

Israel is not our most important Target but it is a potential Target if they Keep threatning us and calling us the supreme Enemy , then we must think about them too but by not being over provoked !!

Pakistan will join the list of ICBM capable Nations list.

Most important thing in this regard is that we must not listen to "Loud mouth" Individuals arround us , suggesting us not to have an ICBM , " How come they can know better than us about our Intrests?"

Hope it helps guys:
Regards:

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## pakpower

Yes dude I totally agree with you on this that Pakistan should keep on going in making it's own ICBM and take it to the new level of heights.

It is very important for our existance in this hostile world specially if our neighbour is that kind of.


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## Ababeel

Y2A said:


> Notional interests do not remain the same and so as Friends and enemies, today's "MASTERS" are quite "fit" to become the "potential" destination of an ICBM.
> 
> Pakistan is on the verge of dual with US, even isarail has threatened to attack the Pakistani Nuclear Installations on several occasions, keeping these factors in mind, having an ICBM is more the worthy .



It's a very good answer keeping in mind the continuously and fast changing world scenario. And now its crystal clear that US can not be a friend of any muslim nation even it is Pakistan under secularists like Zardari a & co. Also Pakistan will have to be very careful for any Israeli conspiracies that might involve Indian brahmin mind.

As Quran says,"Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not".

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## laiqs@mi

@icecold
Sir with respect i dont agree ..that first we build our economy ...and then go for the ICBM
My point is that until we look at others for economy building we will be at the same position or lower...
what i think go for the kill ... we dont need any aid any help Pakistan has all the potential to stay alone ... and we have a very good frnd China... so most of our members will not agree but its my way of thinking...

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think Pakistan should invest the rocket and missile technology and start a proper space program , for research and development 

We don't need really super long range missile capabilities


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## Super Falcon

psugumar said:


> For attacking India or Isrel (may be possible future threat) Pak does not need ICBM,Can any of our friends tell me if there is any significance Pakistan spending on ICBM?



why u have any probleum if we destroy israel and u also dont need 4 air craft carriers MRCS,pakfa,100 naval ships,corvetes,P8 posedian., scorpene subs, arihant sub ,awacs,

than why u are buying them if we make some thing u have big pain in ur *** if even we buy G 3 u have pain that it willl be used against indian what is indian are u bhagwan that no one can use anything against u if u want to fight go to hell


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## Hyde

Super Falcon said:


> why u have any probleum if we destroy israel and u also dont need 4 air craft carriers MRCS,pakfa,100 naval ships,corvetes,P8 posedian., scorpene subs, arihant sub ,awacs,
> 
> than why u are buying them if we make some thing u have big pain in ur *** if even we buy G 3 u have pain that it willl be used against indian what is indian are u bhagwan that no one can use anything against u if u want to fight go to hell



cool man cool 

we are not in a state of war man coooool 

Peace


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## ice_man

aditiwari007 said:


> Pakistanis are addicted to getting foreign technology as donation. They even cant develop missiles on their own, forget ICBMs



great firstly prove it that we take foreign missile technology!!! because our missile systems are way different from the CHINESE....

as for india please spare me the crap all your missiles technology everything you have is of SOVIET ORIGIN!!!


but staying on the topic i don't think Pakistan needs ICBMs we will be better off in investing in indigenous SAMs as well as cruise missiles or plutonium or hydrogen bomb technology!

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## Joodi

aditiwari007 said:


> They even cant develop missiles on their own, forget ICBMs



Vow what a rubbish statement:

Babur
ghauri1
Ghaur2
Shaheen1
Shaheen 2
Abdali
Raad 

Should i list some more pakistai missile, which are making indian dhoti wet. We know how original and effective indian missiles are.


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## SBD-3

aditiwari007 said:


> Pakistanis are addicted to getting foreign technology as donation. They even cant develop missiles on their own, forget ICBMs


a typical Indian statement. there is a famous saying "nau dolatia apni auqat bhool jata hay".


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## SABRE

aditiwari007 said:


> *Pakistanis are addicted to getting foreign technology as donation. *They even cant develop missiles on their own, forget ICBMs



MiG-29, Su-30MKI, BrahMos, balah blah ... which of these is actually Indian technology? Not to forget Israeli missiles. 

For the indigenous weapons and ballistic missiles, which weapon system is actually inducted in Indian Army in large numbers? None! Only Prithvi is operational that too not in large numbers and with 170Km range.

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## Lethalforce

I agree Pakistan does need an ICBM for any country that has a missile program to come halfway and stop is silly, the threat can come from the other side of the world and if they can bomb you and you can't bomb them they have a leverage gainst you.

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## Y2A

Originally Posted by aditiwari007 said:


> Pakistanis are addicted to getting foreign technology as donation. They even cant develop missiles on their own, forget ICBMs



Wake up mate, its ain't Pakistan who claims duds like tirshool and prithvi from DRDO, yeah you can forget ICBM because it is not intended for you, ICBM development is a dangerous work so stay safe, don't try this at "home", you are already burning.

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## abbasniazi

Time has proven that pakistan always came up with a solution to every indian threat, and i am sure pakistan would be working on it.

by the way sometimes i think that there might be a secret pact between indian and pakistani army to keep a certain level of tension between them just to find excuses for procurement and development of more and more sophisticated weapons with the help of the rest of the world.

its just a funny idea, nothing more...

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## Student

Pakistan Should build ICBM but the one that can threaten Uncle Sam just in case if US attacks Pakistan.

As Far as india is concerned we have got it covered already.

ICBM will keep those narco fascist EURO at bay too.

As far as Russia is concerned it is my personal opinion that we should develop stretegic ties with Russia.


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## PakSher

Pakistan Russian ties have improved and need to continue to build economic and strategic relations with them. Russia is a rising power, Pakistan is the 6th biggest country in the world in population and we have common interests as well.


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## Sunny4pak

Where is our long range 7000km misile i think this is the right time to test this misile if it is ..............
Regards,
Sunny


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## IceCold

Sunny4pak said:


> Where is our long range 7000km misile i think this is the right time to test this misile if it is ..............
> Regards,
> Sunny



Hold your horses. There is no missile in the Pakistani arsenal with the range you mentioned above. So lets not get carried away.


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## batmannow

abbasniazi said:


> Time has proven that pakistan always came up with a solution to every indian threat, and i am sure pakistan would be working on it.
> 
> by the way sometimes i think that there might be a secret pact between indian and pakistani army to keep a certain level of tension between them just to find excuses for procurement and development of more and more sophisticated weapons with the help of the rest of the world.
> 
> its just a funny idea, nothing more...



YOU know it can be TRUE!


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## The Patriot

i dont see any benefit of ICBM at this moment. Pakistan should work on its image, improve economy and trade, and develop capability for ICBM but not test it. any test at this time will bring more pressure which pakistan cannot afford. a strong economy will support any project we want just like the indians. 
I would rather prefer Pakistan develop its space capability which will help in spying, communication and our cruise missiles and even against terrorists.

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## batmannow

IceCold said:


> Hold your horses. There is no missile in the Pakistani arsenal with the range you mentioned above. So lets not get carried away.



D. Ice COLD, sir!
ever you thought, that we had a nucklear war head,READY scince 1984?
i guss, on the basses of that, HARD FACT, its logical to ASSUME , there is something in the testing fields, btw no one can ANSWER, that when our economy can become, a super ECONOMY?
So if we cant determind when , our economy will stand , its better to have ICBM in our hands, so the world can understand that, they can share us but they cant bombed us!


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## Lethalforce

while on the topic of economy all the economic powers became economic powers after having an ICBM japan and germany ww2 losers are the only exceptions.

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## Joodi

ok technically speaking, having in ICBm capability is owesum.

1- But who we are going to target with an ICBM. Is there any enemy country at 7000 + km range, which we consider as a potential threat to our security in present and in near future.

2- Is there a financial justification for such luxury item like ICBM, we have justification for our ballistic and cruise missile programs having range from (290 to 2500km) in the form of threats from india.


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## Materialistic

> ok technically speaking, having in ICBm capability is owesum.
> 
> 1- But who we are going to target with an ICBM. Is there any enemy country at 7000 + km range, which we consider as a potential threat to our security in present and in near future.
> 
> 2- Is there a financial justification for such luxury item like ICBM, we have justification for our ballistic and cruise missile programs having range from (290 to 2500km) in the form of threats from india.



Buddy, we should not forget that we are not living in medieval ages where a relationship is held as long the king lives. Today, its all about interests and they change over night so Nobody is actually sure when he gets up next morning then who will be the enemy and who will be ally. The best examples are US-Iraq & US-Taliban relations.

*Also, having an ICBM capability will keep other western nations on their shores if they try to act over smart tomorrow. As UK admits that war on Iraq was not justified & unnecessary, they bombed Iraq for their own interests.*


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## A$HU

Currently pakistan has no need for an icbm nor in the near future.As soon as it tests an icbm, the next big news will be pakistan under international sanctions because it wont have the the answer why it needs an icbm.Perhaps after 25 to 30 years when it is economically self sufficient and strong enough it can build one.But to me it would be nothing but a thing for national pride and power projection which currently it does not need to show but as I said after 20 to25 years.


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## Parashuram1

Oh no... not another of those mass destruction threads. Now could you sensibly think:

1) What is the need for developing ICBMs?USA? Israel? both have already got you in their sights and range.

2) Can your economy sustain the development, testing and deployment of ICBM at present situation when you owe a lot of money already to IMF?

3) Do you think that European and Western nations would be ready to trade with you in weapons and even advanced civilian technology, that could be modified for military use? An ICBM test would result in a blanket embargo on Pakistan, costing your economy dearly. 

4) What pretext would you use to justify your test? India? The whole world knows that your missiles already cover the entire Indian territory. There would be nothing to hide behind, but rather openly display your hatred for West and become another Khomeinist-style Iran.

5) With half the world already worried about your nuclear weapons' safety, a test of this nature would be the final nail in your coffin of dead trade, commerce and economic support from world around. Why do you think your neighbour is not pursuing ICBM technology despite having one of the most most advanced space programmes around the world? Think about it. 

6) Europe if not the United States would be the most displeased with either of you acquiring an ICBM since we already face threat of radical Islamist fundamentalism in some European countries. The last thing would be your government unable to quell a fundamentalist invasion and taking over your missile arsenal even if not nuclear arsenal.

7) DO you want to end up like North Korea?

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## s6demon

Parashuram1 said:


> *Europe if not the United States would be the most displeased with either of you acquiring an ICBM *




aaaaah yes we dont want to "DISPLEASE" europeans and americans since they are our overlords and get to dictate to US and to the lower world what technology is one fit to recieve.

we would like to beg forgiveness for our dicretions against the almighty white men for WE (the non whites) do not know our place in this world and dared to imagine a place where a human being from another part of a world would be considered as free or equal as they are to their peers.

Alas we all know that Europeans and Americans with the pure white skins should be allowed to have ICBMs in case us lower beings decided to develop some self esteem and they have to put us in our place by targeting our cities and our people.



............ is what sits just perfectly with the indians with their cast mentality.


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## Creder

Parashuram1 said:


> Oh no... not another of those mass destruction threads. Now could you sensibly think:
> 
> 1) What is the need for developing ICBMs?USA? Israel? both have already got you in their sights and range.
> 
> *great then we can have them in our sights and range *
> 
> 2) Can your economy sustain the development, testing and deployment of ICBM at present situation when you owe a lot of money already to IMF?
> *
> Can your economy sustain the wars you guys are waging, we've managed in the past we'll manage even now
> *
> 3) Do you think that European and Western nations would be ready to trade with you in weapons and even advanced civilian technology, that could be modified for military use? An ICBM test would result in a blanket embargo on Pakistan, costing your economy dearly.
> *
> And pray tell what favors have the europeans and americans showering upon us in the past decade or so, unless you consider sanctions a favor ? and before you said you might wanna check the bank balances of the dictators you've helped put in *
> 
> 4) What pretext would you use to justify your test? India? The whole world knows that your missiles already cover the entire Indian territory. There would be nothing to hide behind, but rather openly display your hatred for West and become another Khomeinist-style Iran.
> 
> *We have interest in the world as a whole, india is a part of the bigger picture not the whole picture*
> 
> 5) With half the world already worried about your nuclear weapons' safety, a test of this nature would be the final nail in your coffin of dead trade, commerce and economic support from world around. Why do you think your neighbour is not pursuing ICBM technology despite having one of the most most advanced space programmes around the world? Think about it.
> *
> half the world was in support of waging a war on iraq, half the world sees israelis as a peaceful nation...that half of the world is different than this half of the world and we've learned really not to give two sh**ts about that half *
> 
> 6) Europe if not the United States would be the most displeased with either of you acquiring an ICBM since we already face threat of radical Islamist fundamentalism in some European countries. The last thing would be your government unable to quell a fundamentalist invasion and taking over your missile arsenal even if not nuclear arsenal.
> 
> *I am sure if they could do such a thing without serious repercussions they would have done so *
> 
> 7) DO you want to end up like North Korea?
> *
> We want to end up as a free nation that enjoys peace with its neighbors, we want to see a world that is not exploited by bunch of thugs, we want peace but not at the price of supression
> *

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## Vassnti

Perhaps i am biased because i live in a little country with no great ambitions other than to beat Australia at rugby and perhaps one day in the distant future at cricket. 

We have no nukes, no missiles and no desire to get either, I wonder when people post that Pakistan needs more schools, more hospitals and a solution to load shedding that people talk about spending limited resources on ICBM's and space programs what their priorities are?

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## TechLahore

Vassnti said:


> Perhaps i am biased because i live in a little country with no great ambitions other than to beat Australia at rugby and perhaps one day in the distant future at cricket.
> 
> We have no nukes, no missiles and no desire to get either, I wonder when people post that Pakistan needs more schools, more hospitals and a solution to load shedding that people talk about spending limited resources on ICBM's and space programs what their priorities are?



You also live in a country that has never known chaos and destruction involving millions of deaths - and that too at its very birth. Nor are you living in a country that has fought multiple wars with a larger belligerent neighbour, or one that faced regional nuclearization without itself initiating the race, that then faced the prospect of nuclear annihilation had it not developed a deterrent. You don't live in a country that had its neighbour fund and arm insurgents, separatists and terrorists on your territory. Or a country that is dealing with the violation of water accords. Or a country that is contending with the byzantine insertion of inimical operatives in a weak, ungoverned western neighbour by a bellicose eastern neighbour. Or a country that is at the crossroads of key energy routes, thus attracting the worst this world has to offer, in terms of intelligence agencies playing grand games in the neighbourhood...

So, perhaps you can't relate to how we Pakistanis feel.

But I do hope you beat Australia at cricket sooner rather than later.

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## s6demon

TechLahore said:


> You also live in a country that has never known chaos and destruction involving millions of deaths - and that too at its very birth.




dont forget they did very nearly wipe out the natives and took over their country. just like the aussies have.


maybe if the natives had the same weaponry they wouldnt have seen their families killed, their culture wiped out and their country being overtaken.


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## zagahaga

ATTENTION ALL EDUCATED MEMBERS 
ICBM CAN THERE BE A ICCM AKA LONG RANGE CRUISE MISSEL


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## bc040400065

Parashuram1 said:


> Oh no... not another of those mass destruction threads. Now could you sensibly think:
> 
> 1) What is the need for developing ICBMs?USA? Israel? both have already got you in their sights and range.
> 
> 2) Can your economy sustain the development, testing and deployment of ICBM at present situation when you owe a lot of money already to IMF?
> 
> 3) Do you think that European and Western nations would be ready to trade with you in weapons and even advanced civilian technology, that could be modified for military use? An ICBM test would result in a blanket embargo on Pakistan, costing your economy dearly.
> 
> 4) What pretext would you use to justify your test? India? The whole world knows that your missiles already cover the entire Indian territory. There would be nothing to hide behind, but rather openly display your hatred for West and become another Khomeinist-style Iran.
> 
> 5) With half the world already worried about your nuclear weapons' safety, a test of this nature would be the final nail in your coffin of dead trade, commerce and economic support from world around. Why do you think your neighbour is not pursuing ICBM technology despite having one of the most most advanced space programmes around the world? Think about it.
> 
> 6) Europe if not the United States would be the most displeased with either of you acquiring an ICBM since we already face threat of radical Islamist fundamentalism in some European countries. The last thing would be your government unable to quell a fundamentalist invasion and taking over your missile arsenal even if not nuclear arsenal.
> 
> 7) DO you want to end up like North Korea?



well for ur concern i think it is not an ICBM, it may be shaheen iii or ghuri iii. may be some one just made up a news. pakistan is more focusing now on more improvements in its missile tech. and more focus now on cruise missile with more range like babar ii with 1000km. also for ur info india is developing an ICBM and this is no secret. check out wikipedia for that. and about our missile and nukes going into taliban hands well this is just simply western and indian propanganda to pressurize us and nothing else. west and india know that we have an strong military and these few hundred stupids cann't take over. and also for ur info our nukes and missiles are not toys that any one can play with them. u need keywords at every stage to get to near of any kind of nuke or missile delivery or test etc. and please do look around there are more unsafe nuke programs in the world than pakistan's. more than a million force is there to protect pakistan. Also u referred to USA and europe's concern well india got an Nuclear submarine last year from russia ,,,,, what about that???? no concern?????? india is developing nuclear capable supersonic cruise missile with russia,,,, what about that????? hope there is concern about that as well.........


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## Arsalan

bc040400065 said:


> well for ur concern i think it is not an ICBM, it may be shaheen iii or ghuri iii. may be some one just made up a news. *[1]pakistan is more focusing now on more improvements in its missile tech. *and more focus now on cruise missile with more range like babar ii with 1000km. also for ur info india is developing an ICBM and this is no secret. check out wikipedia for that. and about our missile and nukes going into taliban hands well this is just simply western and indian propanganda to pressurize us and nothing else. west and india know that we have an strong military and these few hundred stupids cann't take over. and also for ur info our nukes and missiles are not toys that any one can play with them. u need keywords at every stage to get to near of any kind of nuke or missile delivery or test etc. and please do look around there are more unsafe nuke programs in the world than pakistan's. more than a million force is there to protect pakistan. Also u referred to USA and europe's concern well india got an Nuclear submarine last year from russia ,,,,, what about that???? no concern?????? india is developing nuclear capable supersonic cruise missile with russia,,,, what about that????? hope there is concern about that as well.........



i agree that pakistan is more keen on further improving its ballistic missile technologyand rather then improving on range they are more concerned about MIRV, flight path and accuracy of already existing ballistic missile arsenal. this is how it should be. Pakistan missiles covers the entire Indian land and that is our closest enemy we are ever going to (God Forbade) fight with. Moreover if we further increse the range Israel come into striking range and that will raise lots of noice in international community that we dont want to creat. International relations are not to be governed by childish approach of showing power. What we can do is that develop a Satellite launch rocket and that can be used for any purpose when required,,,
Pakistan government also seem to put a lot of hope behind cruise missile projects specially after success of Babur and Raad. Now we will be increasing the range of Babur II to 1000 Km and are working on ship and submarine launched versions!
as far as india is concerned that have test fired there Agni III with 3500Km range and that is a step towards ICBMs but pakistan should be least concerned about it.
moreover they are ready to test Agni V in this year but agin it is non of our business. what we need is to develop a good SLCM and ShLCM. then keep working on further improving accuracy and flight parameter of our ballistic missiles!

regards!

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## Cold-Fire

any update????


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## pak blood

Brahm0s said:


> Friend you mean war between pakistan and israel would end israel and america would eat popcorn and watch it? i think pakistan wont even know what came and hit them untill its too late. if pakistan even dare to take on israel than thats it. That would be begning of 'end' of pakistan my friend. Anyway you are taking israel too much lightly (due to size of it). Let us know what pakistan got and compare it to israel. Am sure you would know the 'huge' difference.



pakistan has no plans to attack israel wat so ever , so i think all that was stupid . but yes if in any case pakistan does that , we ll pay heavy price due to usa intervention . lets leave israel to iran


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## The Deterrent

Any Pakistani ICBM project does not exist.....please stop dreaming...realize the result of nuking US/Israel..try standing on your own feet...then think about doing more than required...


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## blackcobran

A$HU said:


> Currently pakistan has no need for an icbm nor in the near future.As soon as it tests an icbm, the next big news will be pakistan under international sanctions because it wont have the the answer why it needs an icbm.Perhaps after 25 to 30 years when it is economically self sufficient and strong enough it can build one.But to me it would be nothing but a thing for national pride and power projection which currently it does not need to show but as I said after 20 to25 years.


oh YES why not if we have one then it goes to terrorists! dont you guyz have missiles? no body says anything about your missiles?can't they go to mr.ball thakry(the terrorist)??????Why & how do you need agnvi (iv or v) dont they have range more then you guyz need for us(PAKISTAN)!!!SO I wanna ask you why do you have these toys???


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## My-Analogous

Vassnti said:


> Perhaps i am biased because i live in a little country with no great ambitions other than to beat Australia at rugby and perhaps one day in the distant future at cricket.
> 
> We have no nukes, no missiles and no desire to get either, I wonder when people post that Pakistan needs more schools, more hospitals and a solution to load shedding that people talk about spending limited resources on ICBM's and space programs what their priorities are?


 
When someone pointing gun at you what will be your priority build house or protect your self?

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## ARSENAL6

You forget Does NZ have any threats with its neigbour or does it have a very powerful nation that is bullying Pakistan to become whatever they wanted to be even if it goes against Pakistani people ?


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## ARSENAL6

s6demon said:


> dont forget they did very nearly wipe out the natives and took over their country. just like the aussies have.
> 
> 
> maybe if the natives had the same weaponry they wouldnt have seen their families killed, their culture wiped out and their country being overtaken.


Wrong the British never wiped out the M&#257;ori tribes people In fact they encourage their culture and people to spread as well as intergrate unlike their Austrailain counter part with their Aborging tribemen.

Please stop your BS and get some fact before posting here !


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## ARSENAL6

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i agree that pakistan is more keen on further improving its ballistic missile technologyand rather then improving on range they are more concerned about MIRV, flight path and accuracy of already existing ballistic missile arsenal. this is how it should be. Pakistan missiles covers the entire Indian land and that is our closest enemy we are ever going to (God Forbade) fight with. Moreover if we further increse the range Israel come into striking range and that will raise lots of noice in international community that we dont want to creat. International relations are not to be governed by childish approach of showing power. *What we can do is that develop a Satellite launch rocket and that can be used for any purpose when required,,,* .....Point 1
> Pakistan government also seem to put a lot of hope behind cruise missile projects specially after success of Babur and Raad. Now we will be increasing the range of Babur II to 1000 Km and are working on ship and submarine launched versions!
> *as far as india is concerned that have test fired there Agni III with 3500Km range and that is a step towards ICBMs but pakistan should be least concerned about it.
> moreover they are ready to test Agni V in this year but agin it is non of our business. what we need is to develop a good SLCM and ShLCM. then keep working on further improving accuracy and flight parameter of our ballistic missiles!* Point 2
> 
> regards!




I couldn't have agreed with you more 
Point 1 : Having Pakistan to launch Satellite to space is a must. She should be self reliant and if that happens Pakistan will be more independant
Point 2: If india is gong for an ICMB how about Pakistan to develop a shield system for defence in thw meantime.


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## Dazzler

Stay on topic folks...... The name Taimur is not confirmed but there is a presence of such a weapon system ready for tests if the need arises! Current political turmoil in Pakistan as well as in region doesn't allow its test

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## khurasaan1

I hope Insha-Allah it will be tested soon successfully....


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## ARSENAL6

ICBM is only Valid if the US planning an attack on Pakistan.


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## T-Rex

Vassnti said:


> Perhaps i am biased because i live in a little country with no great ambitions other than to beat Australia at rugby and perhaps one day in the distant future at cricket.
> 
> We have no nukes, no missiles and no desire to get either, I wonder when people post that Pakistan needs more schools, more hospitals and a solution to load shedding that people talk about spending limited resources on ICBM's and space programs what their priorities are?



When countries like america, israel and india will stop arming themselves with every kind of WMDs the world will automatically start talking about education and food for all because they don't have to worry about being 'liberated' by the masters of Abu Gharib and Guantanamo Bay concentration camp.

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## The Deterrent

*THE PAKISTANI ICBM*


First of all,I have very credible information from reliable sources,that no development is being done regarding an ICBM.Maybe some paperwork was done and feasibility reports were taken into consideration,but no solid development towards this project is known...

*REASONS FOR THE NON-EXISTANCE OF THE PROJECT:*

*1. Non-existence of a distant enemy:*

Except India,there is no other enemy state of Pakistan at the present...the least likely possibility is Israel,which will be covered by the induction of the 4000km range system.Now,some Pakistani youngsters declare US as an enemy state and target...just imagine the massive retaliation if a single warhead reaches there which is nearly impossible because by the time we make one,the ABM technology would be much advanced...only one SSBN is enough to take out all the major cities of Pakistan.
If you got a problem with the drones,use the Airforce...if Americans are to be attacked ,we have the ability to take out the military bases in Afghanistan,which would be a better option than the ICBM, but still the worst.

*2.International Pressure:*

Firstly,the International community,especially the US and UK will consider all their aid going waste on the name of WoT...first we ask for aid because we have a feeble economy,then we spend it on making useless ICBMs...
Secondly,everybody would be forced to think that who is our target?...who we are intending to reach?...which will only worsen the image of Pakistan...
Thirdly,since the controversies about the safety of Pakistan's Nuclear Assets (which is ,in fact,very rather very very strong) are ever increasing,the last thing everybody in the world would want is some ICBM landing over their homes just because some terrorists were angry with them...this will certainly prove more disadvantageous for Pakistan...

*3.Limited Funding:*

The new government has cut short the budget for the missile program,and due to this some other programs have been slowed down...
Now a fully functional ICBM project with 15-20 systems,testing systems,storage facilities etc would cost over 300 million US dollars,an amount Pakistan certainly does not have to waste as a precautionary measure...not to mention the already stumbling economy.

*THE NAME*

Even the name is controversial....

Abdali,Ghaznavi,Ghauri,Babur all attacked sub-continent...
Shaheen,Ra'ad and NASR are symbolic names...

But Tipu fought the british and Amir Taimur wasn't related to the sub-continent(I'm not sure about him)

I hope that these reasons are enough.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Its TIPU not taimur.

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## Malik Usman

psugumar said:


> For attacking India or Isrel (may be possible future threat) Pak does not need ICBM,Can any of our friends tell me if there is any significance Pakistan spending on ICBM?


 

If Pakistan don't need this then why Indian's need such big military and mountain of weapons...she is increasing crazingly.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

We need an ICBM that can hit mainland United States of America... 

Our military is constantly refusing to disengage from the Americans because of fear of retaliation from the Americans... 

I just invented a phrase actually that came to my mind considering the situation... 

If you dont have balls... grow some...

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## EjazR

Well I wonder if the person who names the ICBM Taimur knows that Taimur was involved in attacking only Muslim Kings and rulers throughout his life wether it was Persia, Baghdad, Khorasan or the Delhi Sultanate.

Then again, maybe its meant to indicate that the ICBM will be used against Muslim countries?

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## Markus

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> We need an ICBM that can hit mainland United States of America...
> 
> Our military is constantly refusing to disengage from the Americans because of fear of retaliation from the Americans...
> 
> I just invented a phrase actually that came to my mind considering the situation...
> 
> If you dont have balls... grow some...


 
First things first - Become economically independent if you have any plans of non compliance with Black House.......oops I mean the White House.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Markus said:


> First things first - Become economically independent if you have any plans of non compliance with Black House.......oops I mean the White House.


 
Thanks for the good will Markus but the problem is Pakistan will never be able to get rid of its economic woes as long as it stays as America's prostitute due to the traitors at the top of Pakistan Government and Military...


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## Markus

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Thanks for the good will Markus but the problem is Pakistan will never be able to get rid of its economic woes as long as it stays as America's prostitute due to the traitors at the top of Pakistan Government and Military...


 
Well my friend then Pakistan will have to keep doing all the dirty work that the US wants it to do.

No escape here.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

EjazR said:


> Well I wonder if the person who names the ICBM Taimur knows that Taimur was involved in attacking only Muslim Kings and rulers throughout his life wether it was Persia, Baghdad, Khorasan or the Delhi Sultanate.
> 
> Then again, maybe its meant to indicate that the ICBM will be used against Muslim countries?


 
I agree... Taimur is not a good name for this... Imagine its full name... Taimur Langra... Tipu would be cool... I have a suggestion for the name for an ICBM that can reach United Snakes of America... How about naming it Malik Shahbaz!!!! (Malcolm X)


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Markus said:


> Well my friend then Pakistan will have to keep doing all the dirty work that the US wants it to do.
> 
> No escape here.


 
Pessimism is not an option either... I already know where all this is heading btw... 

It takes the surprise out of the things to come in the future I do admit


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## acetophenol

i strongly believe that pakistan is developing icbms,
its always gud to have weapons.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

acetophenol said:


> i strongly believe that pakistan is developing icbms,
> its always gud to have weapons.


 
 insightful my friend


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## khurasaan1

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> I agree... Taimur is not a good name for this... Imagine its full name... Taimur Langra... Tipu would be cool... I have a suggestion for the name for an ICBM that can reach United Snakes of America... How about naming it Malik Shahbaz!!!! (Malcolm X)


 
No ..thnx..keep the non-Muslim ideas to ureself ...find some good Muslim name. only..


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## The Deterrent

I think nobody took my post seriously.....
When are you guys going to understand that *we do not need an ICBM*???


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## BelligerentPacifist

khurasaan1 said:


> No ..thnx..keep the non-Muslim ideas to ureself ...find some good Muslim name. only..


What in either in both names of the man is not Muslim? Have you ever read about this man?

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## acetophenol

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> insightful my friend


the strong defence forces and its nukes has always helped pakistan


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

khurasaan1 said:


> No ..thnx..keep the non-Muslim ideas to ureself ...find some good Muslim name. only..


 
Malcolm X was a non Muslim?


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

AhaseebA said:


> I think nobody took my post seriously.....
> When are you guys going to understand that *we do not need an ICBM*???


 
We most certainly do...

All attempt to discuss liberation from the slave master America on this forum at least gets bogged down by "sincere" and "patriotic" people telling us that we are MAJBOOR to have ties with America because otherwise they ll bomb us to stone age... If we had ICBMs at least Musharaf could nt have attempted to get himself off the hook by using similar tactics in defence of his treason... 

So there... We need ICBMs... within the next two years... without it, the Americans cannot be stopped... 

Its like the call of Jalaluddin Khwarzim who kept shouting and sending messages to the Caliph in Baghdad about the approaching menace of the TarTars... The Caliph sent no help thinking it was a border issue and paid with his life for his stupidity... 

so once again... the Tar Tars are coming... and we need these ICBMs within two years time...


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## The Deterrent

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> We most certainly do...
> 
> All attempt to discuss liberation from the slave master America on this forum at least gets bogged down by "sincere" and "patriotic" people telling us that we are MAJBOOR to have ties with America because otherwise they ll bomb us to stone age... If we had ICBMs at least Musharaf could nt have attempted to get himself off the hook by using similar tactics in defence of his treason...
> 
> So there... We need ICBMs... within the next two years... without it, the Americans cannot be stopped...
> 
> Its like the call of Jalaluddin Khwarzim who kept shouting and sending messages to the Caliph in Baghdad about the approaching menace of the TarTars... The Caliph sent no help thinking it was a border issue and paid with his life for his stupidity...
> 
> so once again... the Tar Tars are coming... and we need these ICBMs within two years time...


 
Why don't you understand.....ICBMs will cost a lot and still they can't be designed by us to get past the first wall...
We are not living in Middle ages.....we are talking about serious retaliation which could wipe our existence off the face of the earth...

Look at Iran (in present)...they don't have ICBMs but still nobody dares to mess with them,not even US.......why?
because they have a stable economy,so they are not dependent on US...
If we are powerful economically,the world will stand beside us and nobody can threaten us...

Why aren't we seriously focusing our hard work in other fields too?

Get rid of the Americans,nobody is going to Bomb us.....Attack them and you'll make sure we are sent way beyond the stone age.....

PS: can you point out the illogical reasons which I gave?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Malcolm X was a non Muslim?


 
Malcolm X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

AhaseebA said:


> Why don't you understand.....ICBMs will cost a lot and still they can't be designed by us to get past the first wall...
> We are not living in Middle ages.....we are talking about serious retaliation which could wipe our existence off the face of the earth...
> 
> Look at Iran (in present)...they don't have ICBMs but still nobody dares to mess with them,not even US.......why?
> because they have a stable economy,so they are not dependent on US...
> If we are powerful economically,the world will stand beside us and nobody can threaten us...
> 
> Why aren't we seriously focusing our hard work in other fields too?
> 
> Get rid of the Americans,nobody is going to Bomb us.....Attack them and you'll make sure we are sent way beyond the stone age.....
> 
> PS: can you point out the illogical reasons which I gave?


 
Yaar... I never said we should attack America... dont go off tangents... Our Nukes and ICBMs are for deterrance only... 

We need ICBMs... otherwise we will remain slaves to America... its as simple as that... once they know that we are capable of MAD, their hands shall be tied like with the Soviets... Otherwise I dont need any lessons in being told that they are a nation that has the political will to annihilate their enemies (the weaker ones) when they get the chance... Hiroshima and Nagasaki hear hear!!!

If you think that ICBMs are going to be costly... can we not buy a few from China? After all we buy a lot of equipment that we do not make ourselves... ?? Would that be a better option...

Lets say... How many big cities are there in America? 50 for all state capitals?


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> Malcolm X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
I know all about him... that question was only rhetorical... 

actually thinking back all those years... one of the first books I bought from Amazon was his biography...


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## Simorgh

This topic gives good insight into why Pakistan is in such poverty.  First your leaders decide your people should eat grass so the state can attain nukes, now your leaders decide your people need to eat grass so the state can attain ICBMs, next your leaders will decide you need to eat grass while they attain something else.... all this while they hold million dollar weddings, have luxurious houses and parties....  Keep up the good work people.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Simorgh said:


> This topic gives good insight into why Pakistan is in such poverty.  First your leaders decide your people should eat grass so the state can attain nukes, now your leaders decide your people need to eat grass so the state can attain ICBMs, next your leaders will decide you need to eat grass while they attain something else.... all this while they hold million dollar weddings, have luxurious houses and parties....  Keep up the good work people.


 

U should mind ur own business.......... Despite all this our economy was one of the fastest till the mid 2000s... It will recover soon..
Also we r not as poor as u think............... Also its oil on which u jump......... if there was no oil in iran... u would have been looking after sheeps n camels.. or looting caravans at max.


F..k the politicians............ N u do ur own work.............. 

P.S=It would suck to get a decent haircut in iran.


No wonder iran is so isolated in the region...........U guys deserve ...

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## somebozo

Simorgh said:


> This topic gives good insight into why Pakistan is in such poverty.  First your leaders decide your people should eat grass so the state can attain nukes, now your leaders decide your people need to eat grass so the state can attain ICBMs, next your leaders will decide you need to eat grass while they attain something else.... all this while they hold million dollar weddings, have luxurious houses and parties....  Keep up the good work people.



For instance when our leader decide that nation should eat grass to attain nukes and missles..atleast we suceed in that..and not only suceed but remarkably suceed..that the whole world is shocked..what about iran...making good progress with the sanctions..funding and arming terrorist world wide..diplomats kicked out from senegal, eriteria and kuwait..please look into your own collar before pointing fingers..Pakistan is not Iran..ironically the same country you choose to make fun off is buying gas from you at this critical time even when your all time best friend has given up to uncle sam pressure

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Simorgh said:


> This topic gives good insight into why Pakistan is in such poverty.  First your leaders decide your people should eat grass so the state can attain nukes, now your leaders decide your people need to eat grass so the state can attain ICBMs, next your leaders will decide you need to eat grass while they attain something else.... all this while they hold million dollar weddings, have luxurious houses and parties....  Keep up the good work people.


 
whats your problem man? Did someone say we needed ICBMs to strike Iran or something?

Just because someone says they want sophisticated and modern weaponary for their military does not automatically mean they are happy with corrupt politicians... 

be rational my friend...


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## Secret Service

Simorgh said:


> This topic gives good insight into why Pakistan is in such poverty.  First your leaders decide your people should eat grass so the state can attain nukes, now your leaders decide your people need to eat grass so the state can attain ICBMs, next your leaders will decide you need to eat grass while they attain something else.... all this while they hold million dollar weddings, have luxurious houses and parties....  Keep up the good work people.


 
at least we are achieving something by eating grass....


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## Desert Fox

Simorgh said:


> This topic gives good insight into why Pakistan is in such poverty.  First your leaders decide your people should eat grass so the state can attain nukes, now your leaders decide your people need to eat grass so the state can attain ICBMs, next your leaders will decide you need to eat grass while they attain something else.... all this while they hold million dollar weddings, have luxurious houses and parties....  Keep up the good work people.


 
Well even when we were "eating grass" to attain nukes we had a progressing economy and we were not internationally isolated the way iran is today! You iranian and Arabs have a lot in common, your both arrogant, prideful (too much prideful) and both have a lot of oil! If it weren't for oil Arabs would have been living in tents in the middle of nowhere in Arabian desert while you iranian would have been sheep herders.

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## Simorgh

Yeah, the Persian empire came to be with oil alright.  Currently 18 times highest world average scientific output, and in world's top in many fields and high living standards, while under heavy sanctions, has a lot to do with oil alright, and nothing with decisions of ones leaders.

As for the gas that Pakistan can barely agree on , Iran is almost giving it free of charge. No, it's not because we feel that sorry for the daily power outages the past decades in Pakistan. It has to do with getting that pipeline further connected, which, mind you, would earn Pakistan $1 billion annually per each country that gets connected (which was initially the main reason India didn't want to sign), so spare your bullshit about helping Iran out. Just keep those damn terrorists from crossing the borders into Iran, that'll be enough help.

Now what I said wasn't meant as an insult, but an true observation. Pakistan leaders are good at walking around in their expensive suits, living hedonistic lives, and at the same time talk big about how the population will endure this or that for the greater good of Pakistan.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Simorgh said:


> Yeah, the Persian empire came to be with oil alright.


Tht was centuries ago... Also i hope u know how many times it was defeated......nothin to boast of..



> Currently 18 times highest world average scientific output,


Wat unique things have u produced?reverse engineered helis and F-4s which are far inferior to even the 1970s models.



> and in world's top in many fields and high living standards, while under heavy sanctions, has


Thts all coz of oil.



> a lot to do with oil alright, and nothing with decisions of ones leaders.


Do u have any oil refinery?




> As for the gas that Pakistan can barely agree on , Iran is almost giving it free of charge


. 
Yeah right....... For 8 billion.


> No, it's not because we feel that sorry for the daily power outages the past decades in Pakistan. It has to do with getting that pipeline further connected,


Conect to wat india? they backed out under US pressure....



> which, mind you, would earn Pakistan $1 billion annually per each country that gets connected (which was initially the main reason India didn't want to sign),


Lame reason..... They would love to have cheap gas ... 1 billion $ is nothing big.



> . Just keep those damn terrorists from crossing the borders into Iran, that'll be enough help.



Jandullah is iran based on Pakistan based.....might wanna checkout the details...........

P.S=ISI helped u catch Rigi....... while ur press tv was bullshittin tht Pakistan is helping them.



> Now what I said wasn't meant as an insult, but an true observation. Pakistan leaders are good at walking around in their expensive suits, living hedonistic lives, and at the same time talk big about how the population will endure this or that for the greater good of Pakistan.


 
Who gives a crap abt these pathetic politicans.. in the end they would get their kicked...........But hey atleast we are a democracy!!!

As for an ICBM.......Well its our internal matter.........we have no bad intentions towards iran........... If u think we do....then remember tht any current missile would do in Irans case.......so dont worry.

P.S=Iran was a great country under Shahs rule......

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## jayron

Now what a missile named after a Turkic king? Pathetic!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

jayron said:


> Now what a missile named after a Turkish king? Pathetic!


 
Have a lil shame man....... u guys r so pathetic!

Taimur is an islamic name not turkish..............

P.S=Its going to be called Tipu.

post reported.

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## jayron

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Have a lil shame man....... u guys r so pathetic!
> 
> Taimur is an islamic name not turkish..............
> 
> P.S=Its going to be called Tipu.
> 
> post reported.


 
I meant Turkic sorry. But you are the one who should be ashamed for not finding someone from your country for naming your proud missile. But I am not surprised, after all, the third largest Pakistani city is named after the Saudi King coz he gave some charity. That would never happen in India or anywhere else in the world . Only Pakistanis have such "big hearts".

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Trolls have no shame....... i pitty ur kind.

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## jayron

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Trolls have no shame....... i pitty ur kind.


 
Why would you abuse me without trying to give a sensible answer? You really don't have a local hero to make your name your city and missiles after? You as the Pakistani Nationalist should know best.


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## Emmie

jayron said:


> I meant Turkic sorry. But you are the one who should be ashamed for not finding someone from your country for naming your proud missile. But I am not surprised, after all, the third largest Pakistani city is named after the Saudi King coz he gave some charity. That would never happen in India or anywhere else in the world . Only Pakistanis have such "big hearts".



Do you have any point to prove?. Well I don't reckon so!!. Before Faisalabad it used to be Lyallpur, its better to have a name after KHADIM-UL-HARMAIN SHARIFAIN than a BRITISH INVADER.
Please embellish your info a little, especially pertaining KHADIM-UL-HARMAIN SHARIFAIN, and of course about Tipu or Taimor also.
Peace

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## jayron

Emmie said:


> Do you have any point to prove?. Well I don't reckon so!!. Before Faisalabad it used to be Lyallpur, its better to have a name after KHADIM-UL-HARMAIN SHARIFAIN than a BRITISH INVADER.
> Please embellish your info a little, especially pertaining KHADIM-UL-HARMAIN SHARIFAIN, and of course about Tipu or Taimor also.
> Peace


 
It was named Lyallpur when we were ruled by the British . Are you ruled by Arabs now? My point is your identity crisis and your compulsion to please people who look down upon you.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

mods ban this troll.

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## ARSENAL6

jayron said:


> Why would you abuse me without trying to give a sensible answer? You really don't have a local hero to make your name your city and missiles after? You as the Pakistani Nationalist should know best.


 
Because you came here to insult. Post reported

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## jayron

wow.. you guys are ganging up to get me banned. it is like a easy way out of a tough question?


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## Emmie

jayron said:


> It was named Lyallpur when we were ruled by the British . Are you ruled by Arabs now? My point is your identity crisis and your compulsion to please people who look down upon you.



Most of non Arab Muslims add Muhammad before their real name, if you stand true then all of them must have been slaves of Arabs. Take it this way, there's no any other Hindu populated country in the world except India. Believe me if there were some they would have definitely followed India in many ways.
Faisalabad was named followed the session of first successful Islamic Summit Conferences at Lahore 1974. Shah faisal, king of KSA was acclaimed a hero of that success. I guess you know the entire story!
BTW I was expecting an avatar of Bhagat Singh at your display, Achilles made me altogether astonished. I am amazed at your personality of inspiration, you got to idealized something Indian, right!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Leave the troll guys hes just here to troll n derail the thread........... typical.


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## Emmie

jayron said:


> wow.. you guys are ganging up to get me banned. it is like a easy way out of a tough question?


I take your pardon, the question you are asking is not tough its very much moronic indeed. To be more precise full of anti Pak venom.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Yaar... I never said we should attack America... dont go off tangents... Our Nukes and ICBMs are for deterrance only...
> 
> We need ICBMs... otherwise we will remain slaves to America... its as simple as that... once they know that we are capable of MAD, their hands shall be tied like with the Soviets... Otherwise I dont need any lessons in being told that they are a nation that has the political will to annihilate their enemies (the weaker ones) when they get the chance... Hiroshima and Nagasaki hear hear!!!
> 
> If you think that ICBMs are going to be costly... can we not buy a few from China? After all we buy a lot of equipment that we do not make ourselves... ?? Would that be a better option...
> 
> Lets say... How many big cities are there in America? 50 for all state capitals?


 
True, Pakistan needs to ensure it can target at least 50 American cities in order to stop being blackmailed.

BTW, DF-31 is mature and uncostly, and i think it would be a good available option.

Since China did sell DF-3 to Saudi Arabia, an ally of US in 1987. And DF-31 won't be out of possibility.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> True, Pakistan needs to ensure it can target at least 50 American cities in order to stop being blackmailed.
> 
> BTW, DF-31 is mature and uncostly, and i think it would be a good available option.
> 
> Since China did sell DF-3 to Saudi Arabia, an ally of US in 1987. And DF-31 won't be out of possibility.


 
It would be harmful for us to test an ICBM as of now........... Nor we have any intention to nuke anyone.... unless we r provoked.

Also thank u very much for the offer brother.......But it would be better if we make it(and we are developing it) indigenously.

Plus..... i hope they buy the "carrier killer" DF 21D.. or develop something like it.


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## jayron

Emmie said:


> I take your pardon, the question you are asking is not tough its very much moronic indeed. To be more precise full of anti Pak venom.


 
I don't know why you are so offended. Why is it anti-Pak? your own countrymen are pretty divided on the idea of glorifying foreigners like this just because they are muslims.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> It would be harmful for us to test an ICBM as of now........... Nor we have any intention to nuke anyone.... unless we r provoked.
> 
> Also thank u very much for the offer brother.......But it would be better if we make it(and we are developing it) indigenously.
> 
> Plus..... i hope they buy the "carrier killer" DF 21D.. or develop something like it.


 
If Pakistan can come out with its own ICBM, that would be the best option for sure. BTW, i do have the faith that Pakistan can indeed succeed since your missile scientists are also one of the best. 

BTW, some information of our old version of DF-31 was leaked by few of our traitors several years ago to CIA, that's why we will soon phase out the primitive version of DF-31. But now all land based ICBMs are constituted by the brigades of DF-31A/B and DF-41.


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## jayron

Emmie said:


> Most of non Arab Muslims add Muhammad before their real name, if you stand true then all of them must have been slaves of Arabs. Take it this way, there's no any other Hindu populated country in the world except India. Believe me if there were some they would have definitely followed India in many ways.
> Faisalabad was named followed the session of first successful Islamic Summit Conferences at Lahore 1974. Shah faisal, king of KSA was acclaimed a hero of that success. I guess you know the entire story!
> BTW I was expecting an avatar of Bhagat Singh at your display, Achilles made me altogether astonished. I am amazed at your personality of inspiration, you got to idealized something Indian, right!


 
That's not Achilles. It is a Roman soldier I painted recently . Any way, you cannot compare an individual's choice with the choices made by a nation which affects the psyche of its people.


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## The Deterrent

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> .....*.But it would be better if we make it(and we are developing it) indigenously.*


 
Do you have any proof that Pakistan is developing its own ICBM?....except that somebody from the Army bluffed about a feasibility meeting and some paper work...

Check out Pakistan's Missile Testing history.....Nobody knew what (new) system Pakistan is going to test next.....it is impossible for such news to get out...the same goes with Ghauri-3....... and Shaheen-3 (only the name,not the
system)...remember how after every new test PDF guys exclaimed "it just came out of the blue"?......

Now you may say that predicting an ICBM for Pakistan is sensible in a sense that every nuclear nation has made/is trying to make one.....I agree.

I asked someone about this,and they told me that no work is being done on this thing.....we are now focusing more on very effective and reliable shorter range weapons.....and for now,no new system will be named Ghauri or Shaheen...

What I think is that this "news" was deliberately released.....i don't know perhaps for some positive propaganda...

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## The Deterrent

jayron said:


> That's not Achilles. It is a Roman soldier I painted recently . Any way, you cannot compare an individual's choice with the choices made by a nation which affects the psyche of its people.


 
Hey why don't you stick with only the name of the ICBM?

You want to discuss Pakistani Nation's psyche,you're most welcome.....but do so in another thread in some other section than the WMDs and Missiles...


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## The Deterrent

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Yaar... I never said we should attack America... dont go off tangents... Our Nukes and ICBMs are for deterrance only...
> 
> We need ICBMs... otherwise we will remain slaves to America... its as simple as that... once they know that we are capable of MAD, their hands shall be tied like with the Soviets... Otherwise I dont need any lessons in being told that they are a nation that has the political will to annihilate their enemies (the weaker ones) when they get the chance... Hiroshima and Nagasaki hear hear!!!
> 
> If you think that ICBMs are going to be costly... can we not buy a few from China? After all we buy a lot of equipment that we do not make ourselves... ?? Would that be a better option...
> 
> Lets say... How many big cities are there in America? 50 for all state capitals?


 
Okay,agreed with your deterrence view...

If the Army decides that they must have an ICBM,it would be better option to make it on our own.....otherwise it will raise international concerns...

As a mentioned,by the time we make an ICBM,the ABM technology would be reaching its peak...


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## Secret Service

jayron said:


> I meant Turkic sorry. But you are the one who should be ashamed for not finding someone from your country for naming your proud missile. But I am not surprised, after all, the third largest Pakistani city is named after the Saudi King coz he gave some charity. That would never happen in India or anywhere else in the world . *".Only Pakistanis have such "big hearts*


 
i only agree with bold part..

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## Simorgh

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Tht was centuries ago... Also i hope u know how many times it was defeated......nothin to boast of..


Defeat is irrelevant, just like we received a heavy blow during the 8 year imposed war, by the world. What is important is that you stand up, rebuild and do your best again. Iran under heavier sanctions and embargoes achieved a thousand fold more than Iraq while they come right after Iran in terms of oil. Iran was being embargoed and sanctioned from 1979, while Iraq received its sanctions a decade later and had received an estimated $400 billion dollars of aid from Saudi/Kuwait/UAE and several EU countries while they were at war with us, and consistently were receiving weapons, military intelligence and advisory from the west.

It is not oil that makes you achieve what Iran has. Otherwise countries like Libya, Indonesia and such would have achieved at least half of what Iran has with all that oil they had.




> Wat unique things have u produced?reverse engineered helis and F-4s which are far inferior to even the 1970s models.


I bet you'd wish Pakistan could at least reverse engineer these. It's easy to put others down, I'm not going to put down a list for you, instead, why don't you show what other countries have achieved with the precious oil you talk of.



> Do u have any oil refinery?


You seem to be stuck in the past, Iran does not import gasoline and started exporting gasoline for a year now. Iran is one of world's highest gasoline consuming countries. Use your imagination on how much gasoline we produce. Of course being one of few countries in the world that can make refinaries has a lot to do with the oil we have. 



> Yeah right....... For 8 billion.


Where did you get this amount from? The pipeline on Pakistan's side costs $1.65b and the total export of $4.9b per million btu, cheaper than you could get it from anywhere else.



> Conect to wat india? they backed out under US pressure....


China said they would want to be connected to it on the condition that India doesn't get connected to it. Either way it's important to connect India too, to get the pipeline further into Asia. Even if it takes a pipeline through the sea.



> Lame reason..... They would love to have cheap gas ... 1 billion $ is nothing big.


Depends on whether you want to have 24/7 electricity and what not in your country or not. At the rate India wanted to import, it would have earned Pakistan $1b per year, depending on how much China wants to import, it'll earn even more. All of it for what? For having a pipeline run through your country and keep it from being blown up by wahhabis. The price of the gas for Pakistan would then be at most $3.9b per million btu. On top of that Pakistan would attain some political leverage over the other country. Which is part of the reason Pakistan didn't want to sign the contract obligating them to let the gas pass to India even in case of war between the two countries.



> Jandullah is iran based on Pakistan based.....might wanna checkout the details...........


Yeah sure, that's why we catch so many Pakistani citizens. There are Iranians among them though. However the leader of that satanic group himself was a Pakistani national too.



> P.S=ISI helped u catch Rigi....... while ur press tv was bullshittin tht Pakistan is helping them.


Yeah sure, that's why they ordered his release years ago when he was caught by local police. ISI is a corrupt gang who doesn't seem to know what is best for Pakistan. On top of that Iranian intelligence said no foreign agency took part in arresting him. They would not have said that, had ISI taken any part.



> Who gives a crap abt these pathetic politicans.. in the end they would get their kicked...........But hey atleast we are a democracy!!!


Have you ever been to Iran? lol... "atleast we are a democracy" you say, lol. I have lived in Karachi for years buddy. Pakistan is corrupt mess. A ticket from Pakistan to Iran is very cheap, I suggest you visit it and then tell me whether Iran is more of a democracy or Pakistan.... Just so you know, we have a lot of illegal Afghans and Pakistanis in Iran who we can't easily get rid of.



> As for an ICBM.......Well its our internal matter.........we have no bad intentions towards iran........... If u think we do....then remember tht any current missile would do in Irans case.......so dont worry.


Of course it's not meant against Iran. Pakistan can already hit Iran with its Shaheed missile. It's just that some fools in Pakistan seem to think their live would become any better or that they would attain any kind of leverage with having ICBMs. Do you seriously think Pakistan can gain leverage against the US, or even more preposterous, "MAD" against the US???

I'll tell you what, let's compare a closer country to your borders. If both Pakistan and India fire nuclear missiles at one another, Pakistan would seize to exist long before even Pakistan manages to damage half of India.

This is the reality of things. Instead of being busy with this nonsense, spend your time on bettering relations with India, exchange tourists, stop ISI from bothering surrounding friendly countries terrorists and work on advancing your countries infrastructure, science, healthcare, etc, etc.



> P.S=Iran was a great country under Shahs rule......


Why do you think Pakistan had better relations with Iran when Iran was being controlled by a U.S. placed dictator? lol... Pakistan till this day is still in slave state under US rule. Glad we got rid of that dictator, now it's your turn...

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## The Deterrent

Simorgh said:


> Of course it's not meant against Iran. Pakistan can already hit Iran with its Shaheed missile. It's just that some fools in Pakistan seem to think their live would become any better or that they would attain any kind of leverage with having ICBMs. Do you seriously think Pakistan can gain leverage against the US, or even more preposterous, "MAD" against the US???
> 
> I'll tell you what, let's compare a closer country to your borders. If both Pakistan and India fire nuclear missiles at one another, Pakistan would seize to exist long before even Pakistan manages to damage half of India.
> 
> This is the reality of things. Instead of being busy with this nonsense, spend your time on bettering relations with India, exchange tourists, stop ISI from bothering surrounding friendly countries terrorists and work on advancing your countries infrastructure, science, healthcare, etc, etc.
> 
> 
> Why do you think Pakistan had better relations with Iran when Iran was being controlled by a U.S. placed dictator? lol... Pakistan till this day is still in slave state under US rule. Glad we got rid of that dictator, now it's your turn...


 
I agree with this part TOTALLY except the ISI thing...

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## The Deterrent

I don't see why my Pakistani friends are against Mr. Simorgh.....just because hes telling the bitter truth,we should not oppose him.....hes right (except the ISI thing).....

We should explore our weaknesses and see whats wrong with us...then we will be able to make up for them and make are country better...

BTW just look at his post....its like a post of a man who lives in an advanced and truly developed country.....We must accept that Iranians are a better nation than us and we should learn from them.....and stop fighting among ourselves.....


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## Emmie

I have no clue of what exactly you are trying to put up! Keep your gas with you, I don't think these negotiations gonna yield anything. You guys are more comfortable with India, pipeline that you are interested in is actually for India and China. They both need energy for their growing economy, and of course its a golden chance for Iran to exploit their needs. Pakistan and Iran never enjoyed good relations in caparison to relations of Iran with India, so it makes no sense if you say Iran is interested in exporting gas to Pakistan for free to help it out of the crisis. it would make sense if Iran does not intend to connect pipeline to India and China, and give its help exclusively to Pakistan. Its just Business!!!!


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## The Deterrent

Hey guys BTW this discussion is derailing so Mr. Simorgh,back to the ICBM!!!


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## waz

Simorgh said:


> I'll tell you what, let's compare a closer country to your borders. If both Pakistan and India fire nuclear missiles at one another, Pakistan would seize to exist long before even Pakistan manages to damage half of India.



You do know the flight times for *most* of each country's respective ballistic missiles would be the same right? Barring Southern India, Pakistani missiles would have that just little bit further to go. So your analysis of Pakistan "ceasing to exist" before half of India is "damaged" is utter rubbish.

"Our Shaheen missiles hit targets [during testing]; the world recognized their delivery system," said Mubrakmand. "None of India's cities can remain safe from our missiles. ... Pakistan's width is less than India's, which is 1,200 to 1,400 kilometers. Therefore, no corner of India is safe from the Shaheen II

Pakistan warns its nukes are ready

Looking at some credible sources about such a nuclear exchange it says no where that Pakistan will "cease to exist".

NRDC: The Consequences of Nuclear Conflict between India and Pakistan

As it stands Pakistan also has far more operational weapons (120) against India (70 odd) , although India can potentially have a bigger arsenal. So if the first strike isn't enough then the second strike will go in. 

Lastly for an Iranian to be talking about a country "ceasing to exist" is extraordinary, considering you have no such weapon and won't do for the foreseeable future. You don't have any means to defend yourself from a *WMD* assault (Israel), so I think you need to reevaluate who will cease to exist in such a scenario.

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## usman jutt

In my point of view pakistan should have ICMBs to stop America. Our nation has already been bearing poverty since long long time and he is ready to bear it more untill the achievement of our goal. After that we should work on improving our economy. Good luck our Scientists. 

THANKS

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## khurasaan1

plz guyz stick to the topic(ICBMS ONLY)...


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## Saquibk

message deleted


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## Saquibk

jayron said:


> That's not Achilles. It is a Roman soldier I painted recently . Any way, you cannot compare an individual's choice with the choices made by a nation which affects the psyche of its people.



You failed to point out that we glorified Indian Kings too, like Babur and Ghori. I guess the Indian nationalist in you was not pleased, just becasue they were Muslims.

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## ARSENAL6

Pakistan needs an ICMB for the following reason: 

1) The US gave Nuclear technology to India,
2) The US accuses Pakistan funding terrorism when the truth is the opposite,
3) the US wants to split the country into five parts,
4) the US orchestrated terrorist attacks ( Black Water) in Pakistan,
5) Raymond Davis,
6) The US attacks Pakistan with Drone strikes
7) THE US has put Sanctions on Pakistan
8) The US keeps putting corrupt politicains in Pakistan to control it.

China had ICMB before it was economy power house -reason the US threaten china in 60s that they will bomb every city with nukes if China turned to communism, so Russia help her, and then the US didn't touch her.

Pakistan needs not only a ICBM but a defence against another countries ICBM reaching to Pakistan.
And when It has got an ICBM system and defence system against ICBM, it can concentrate on inproving its economy with the no fear of disability.
The Pakistani People will have to change as well.
THis will allow Pakistn to prosper and grow.

However I think the best and the most great thing that Pakistan can do first, put a Pakistani in Space then on the Moon and why not - MARS no matter how long it takes.

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## ChineseTiger1986

ARSENAL6 said:


> Pakistan needs an ICMB for the following reason:
> 
> 1) The US gave Nuclear technology to India,
> 2) The US accuses Pakistan funding terrorism when the truth is the opposite,
> 3) the US wants to split the country into five parts,
> 4) the US orchestrated terrorist attacks ( Black Water) in Pakistan,
> 5) Raymond Davis,
> 6) The US attacks Pakistan with Drone strikes
> 7) THE US has put Sanctions on Pakistan
> 8) The US keeps putting corrupt politicains in Pakistan to control it.
> 
> China had ICMB before it was economy power house -*reason the US threaten china in 60s that they will bomb every city with nukes if China turned to communism, so Russia help her, and then the US didn't touch her.*
> 
> Pakistan needs not only a ICBM but a defence against another countries ICBM reaching to Pakistan.
> And when It has got an ICBM system and defence system against ICBM, it can concentrate on inproving its economy with the no fear of disability.
> The Pakistani People will have to change as well.
> THis will allow Pakistn to prosper and grow.
> 
> However I think the best and the most great thing that Pakistan can do first, put a Pakistani in Space then on the Moon and why not - MARS no matter how long it takes.


 
Actually, it was in 1950s that China had an agreement with USSR to be protected under its nuclear umbrella, but Mao found the Soviet was not trustworthy.

In 1960s, it was USSR who threatened to nuke us, but US stopped them and wanted to form a temporary alliance with PRC to against the threat of USSR. This temporary alliance was ended until the collapse of USSR

BTW, China never trusted either USSR or USA, Mao only believed to build up its own deterrence. I think it is the same for Pakistan, it is better to build up a reliable deterrence to contain the threat of the US.

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## T-Rex

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Actually, it was 1950s that China has an agreement with USSR to be protected under its nuclear umbrella, but Mao found the Soviet was not trustworthy.
> 
> In 1960s, it was USSR who threatened to nuke us, but US stopped them and wanted to form a temporary alliance with PRC to against the threat of USSR. This temporary alliance was ended until the collapse of USSR
> 
> BTW, China never trusted either USSR or USA, Mao only believed to build up its own deterrence. I think it is the same for Pakistan, it is better to build up a reliable deterrence to contain the threat of the US.


 
For the time being Pakistan should ask China to provide it with some DF-31A. Is that a remote possibilty? I'm sure China realises that the US dictated by the hawks of israel is a far greater threat to Pakistan than india. The CIA and the Mossad are quite capable of another false flag operation like the 9/11. Can anyone remind us of the incident when isreali war planes struck an american warship in the Mediterranean and then blamed Egypt? I remember the american false flag operation in the Tonkin Bay in the 60s.

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## VelocuR

One of the best detterence _instead ICBM theory,_ I believe is a *silent nuclear submarines under the deep sea, where nobody detect it.* In fact, Russia submarines deployed outside US almost 20 years+.

ICBM including MIRVs is not good idea to the far away of target, i don't agree.

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## Obambam

RaptorRX707 said:


> One of the best detterence _instead ICBM theory,_ I believe is a *silent nuclear submarines under the deep sea, where nobody detect it.* In fact, Russia submarines deployed outside US almost 20 years+.
> 
> ICBM including MIRVs is not good idea to the far away of target, i don't agree.


 
Silent killers with nuke launching capability will always the best form of detterence as ICBM theory is already outdated by today's standard.

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## ChineseTiger1986

T-Rex said:


> For the time being Pakistan should ask China to provide it with some DF-31A. Is that a remote possibilty? I'm sure China realises that the US dictated by the hawks of israel is a far greater threat to Pakistan than india. The CIA and the Mossad are quite capable of another false flag operation like the 9/11. Can anyone remind us of the incident when isreali war planes struck an american warship in the Mediterranean and then blamed Egypt? I remember the american false flag operation in the Tonkin Bay in the 60s.


 
Yeah, it is possible since it is important for Pakistan to stop being blackmailed by US and Nato.

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## T-Rex

RaptorRX707 said:


> One of the best detterence _instead ICBM theory,_ I believe is a *silent nuclear submarines under the deep sea, where nobody detect it.* In fact, Russia submarines deployed outside US almost 20 years+.
> 
> ICBM including MIRVs is not good idea to the far away of target, i don't agree.


 
Pakistan's submarines do not qualify as 'silent killers', they're quite detectable, that is, if they can carry any long range missiles and remain submurged indefinitely. BTW the number of submarines is a factor too, it will take another 20 years to raise the number significantly. So, improved ICBMs is the logical step.l

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## QADRI

ICBM is now the necessity for us because even if we are not going to use them but still it will be helpful to put pressure on isrealis and americans and in future we will see americans demanding to stop ICBM program.

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## khurasaan1

ARSENAL6 said:


> Pakistan needs an ICMB for the following reason:
> 
> 1) The US gave Nuclear technology to India,
> 2) The US accuses Pakistan funding terrorism when the truth is the opposite,
> 3) the US wants to split the country into five parts,
> 4) the US orchestrated terrorist attacks ( Black Water) in Pakistan,
> 5) Raymond Davis,
> 6) The US attacks Pakistan with Drone strikes
> 7) THE US has put Sanctions on Pakistan
> 8) The US keeps putting corrupt politicains in Pakistan to control it.
> 
> China had ICMB before it was economy power house -reason the US threaten china in 60s that they will bomb every city with nukes if China turned to communism, so Russia help her, and then the US didn't touch her.
> 
> Pakistan needs not only a ICBM but a defence against another countries ICBM reaching to Pakistan.
> And when It has got an ICBM system and defence system against ICBM, it can concentrate on inproving its economy with the no fear of disability.
> The Pakistani People will have to change as well.
> THis will allow Pakistn to prosper and grow.
> .


 
Excellently said....1000% agree with u...
thatswhat we needto do at first and the rest of the game later....


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## Secret Service

ARSENAL6 said:


> Pakistan needs an ICMB for the following reason:
> 
> 1) The US gave Nuclear technology to India,
> 2) The US accuses Pakistan funding terrorism when the truth is the opposite,
> 3) the US wants to split the country into five parts,
> 4) the US orchestrated terrorist attacks ( Black Water) in Pakistan,
> 5) Raymond Davis,
> 6) The US attacks Pakistan with Drone strikes
> 7) THE US has put Sanctions on Pakistan
> 8) The US keeps putting corrupt politicains in Pakistan to control it.
> 
> China had ICMB before it was economy power house -reason the US threaten china in 60s that they will bomb every city with nukes if China turned to communism, so Russia help her, and then the US didn't touch her.
> 
> Pakistan needs not only a ICBM but a defence against another countries ICBM reaching to Pakistan.
> And when It has got an ICBM system and defence system against ICBM, it can concentrate on inproving its economy with the no fear of disability.
> The Pakistani People will have to change as well.
> THis will allow Pakistn to prosper and grow.
> 
> However I think the best and the most great thing that Pakistan can do first, put a Pakistani in Space then on the Moon and why not - MARS no matter how long it takes.


 
why you forget your own territory name , the biggest threat above all ....

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

AhaseebA said:


> The world is rapidly moving towards a no-war era (regarding the nuclear nations).....
> 
> Most of the reasons you mentioned are created by our own corrupt politicians which belong to Pakistan.....so until we change ourselves and the whole nation,we cannot progress in a field other than WMD development.....
> 
> I have now started to somehow agree with you guys regarding deterrence thing......
> 
> But the thing is that Pakistan would take atleast 10 years before testing any kind of an ICBM.....reason being that till now,no serious work is being done on it.....and also we do not have the ability to jump from 2750km (upgraded Shaheen-II) to 7000km.....
> 
> but I'm sure that the 4000km system will surprise the enemies of Pakistan beyond their expectations.....
> 
> I don't know why you guys are not considering US military bases in Afghanistan,Iraq,Qatar as potential targets which are already in range of Shaheen-IIs.....


 
It wont take more than ten days to get a ready made ICBM if our leaders want it... Pakistan is not another Libya with a crackpot ruling it for the past forty years... despite the corruption of our politicians, our country is still recognized as having potential and talent across the world... 

Where there is a will there is a way... We need ICBMs first and then once our state becomes ideological and the problems with funding inside our state are sorted with a new system ( you know what I m talking about ) then we can work on silent submarines etc... 

The key to any future development would be treaties with our friendly nation in the north east... certain sectors require such good will and co operation anyway like space exploration... China can be the ideal partner in development in these sectors...

Lastly... US Marines in Afghanistan are a temporary phenomenon... We need capability to strike their motherland...


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## All-Green

Obambam said:


> Silent killers with nuke launching capability will always the best form of detterence as ICBM theory is already outdated by today's standard.


 
Both land based ICBM and submarine launched missiles go hand in hand in ensuring a credible second strike capability.

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## red_baron

insha'Allah Pakistan's ICBM would be "the great equalizer" on world stage


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## T-Rex

red_baron said:


> insha'Allah Pakistan's ICBM would be "the great equalizer" on world stage


 
And that is exactly why the US is so adamantly against Pakistan acquiring ICBMs. It would mean the end of 'we will bomb you back to stone-age' era.

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## red_baron

T-Rex said:


> And that is exactly why the US is so adamantly against Pakistan acquiring ICBMs. It would mean the end of 'we will bomb you back to stone-age' era.


 
that was just a gay rant by a mad man.....we have submarines and we can deliver something in a crude form anywhere on this planet anytime ...i dont think it costs much to make a contraption that can launch a nuclear capable Raad from a surfaced submarine 

how about modifying a Raad into a drone submarine?or placing it in a torpedo


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## T-Rex

red_baron said:


> that was just a gay rant by a mad man.....we have submarines and we can deliver something in a crude form anywhere on this planet anytime ...i dont think it costs much to make a contraption that can launch a nuclear capable Raad from a surfaced submarine
> 
> how about modifying a Raad into a drone submarine?


 
Why crude form? What's the problem with a pure form? Drone cruise missiles don't make any sense because they are unmanned anyway.


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## red_baron

T-Rex said:


> Why crude form? What's the problem with a pure form? Drone cruise missiles don't make any sense because they are unmanned anyway.


 
i was referring delivery system as crude..not payload and Raad being fired from a surfaced submarine if the target is inland or in the form of torpedo if coastal.


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## The Deterrent

red_baron said:


> i was referring delivery system as crude..not payload and Raad being fired from a surfaced submarine if the target is inland or in the form of torpedo if coastal.


 
Excuse me?....Ra'ad being launched from a submarine?...what happened to Babur SLCM?
Please don't bluff.....We don't have AIP submarines yet.....even if we do,US has detection systems as SOSUS...not to mention US Navy's 55 Destroyers and 75 Submarines.....


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## red_baron

AhaseebA said:


> Excuse me?....Ra'ad being launched from a submarine?...what happened to Babur SLCM?
> Please don't bluff.....We don't have AIP submarines yet.....even if we do,US has detection systems as SOSUS...not to mention US Navy's 55 Destroyers and 75 Submarines.....



possibilities are endless when its do or die or now or never

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

T-Rex said:


> And that is exactly why the US is so adamantly against Pakistan acquiring ICBMs. It would mean the end of 'we will bomb you back to stone-age' era.


 
or at least the end of the excuses, that fat and corrupt Generals at the top of Pakistan Army have been giving to us to hide their treason against us... era


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## The Deterrent

red_baron said:


> possibilities are endless when its do or die or now or never


 
But Ra'ad is an ALCM.....how can we launch it from a sub without booster motor?...again,what about Babur SLCM?
Base your argument on facts and figures,only then you can find a feasible solution...


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

red_baron said:


> that was just a gay rant by a mad man.....we have submarines and we can deliver something in a crude form anywhere on this planet anytime ...i dont think it costs much to make a contraption that can launch a nuclear capable Raad from a surfaced submarine
> 
> how about modifying a Raad into a drone submarine?or placing it in a torpedo


 
As I said, when there is a will there is a way...

The time is coming fast when Pak Army needs to wake up from its slumber... stop sucking up to their fake masters in the west and turn towards the real lord of the worlds... I think this very discussion on this forum is evidence that people with hearts realize there is a need to change the decades old malfunctioning system of slavery to America... We have helped the Americans tremendously not just in the cold war but as recently as helping the Sri Lankans... enough is enough... we need to look after our own now...


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## The Deterrent

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> As I said, when there is a will there is a way...
> 
> The time is coming fast when Pak Army needs to wake up from its slumber... stop sucking up to their fake masters in the west and turn towards the real lord of the worlds... I think this very discussion on this forum is evidence that people with hearts realize there is a need to change the decades old malfunctioning system of slavery to America... We have helped the Americans tremendously not just in the cold war but as recently as helping the Sri Lankans... enough is enough... we need to look after our own now...


 
Nobody is stopping us from getting rid of the US.....except the whole corrupt nation(including myself)...probably we will get rid of US and then go into someone else's slavery...we need to change ourselves...US is not the problem,our behavior is the problem...

Well there is a way but somethings are just impractical.....its very easy to imagine...

FYI,To launch a Babur SLCM,we don't need to surface the submarine...


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## ARSENAL6

secretservice said:


> why you forget your own territory name , the biggest threat above all ....


If there one thing I have forgot is this thread on PDF:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-defence/80983-next-false-flag-planned-blamed-pakistan.html

.and these links
19 troops killed in Dir attack | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Several dead in Pakistan attacks - Central & South Asia - Al Jazeera English

BBC News - Afghanistan: Hundreds escape from Kandahar prison

Pakistan accuses US of 'negative propaganda' - Telegraph

as for not mentioning Israel , well they havent even thwarted Hezbollah so what chance do they have against Pakistan then.

List of other links on PDF that may relate to this topic:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-pakistan-doesn-t-need-isi-collaboration.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ban-infiltrate-into-pakistan-afghanistan.html


http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...iles-show-isi-listed-terror-organisation.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...isi-had-nothing-do-26-11-gen-athar-abbas.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-pakistan-accuses-us-negative-propaganda.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...arges-four-pakistanis-mumbai-attack-plot.html


Theses are great signs to come and Pakistan needs not just to improve its ICMB but Jet fighters, Build a long range heavy stratigic bomber, make their navy a Blue water navy have the ability to launch Statlights, creating new technologies.

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## Zarvan

Pakistan should go ahead with ICMB and should develop it as soon as possible


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## Pioneerfirst

Shaheen-II can be converted to SLV after minor changes but space program is being neglected in Pakistan.We have already hired chinese services for launching our satellite i-e also made in china.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

ARSENAL6 said:


> If there one thing I have forgot is this thread on PDF:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-defence/80983-next-false-flag-planned-blamed-pakistan.html
> 
> &#8230;.and these links
> 19 troops killed in Dir attack | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online
> 
> Several dead in Pakistan attacks - Central & South Asia - Al Jazeera English
> 
> BBC News - Afghanistan: Hundreds escape from Kandahar prison
> 
> Pakistan accuses US of 'negative propaganda' - Telegraph
> 
> as for not mentioning Israel , well they haven&#8217;t even thwarted Hezbollah so what chance do they have against Pakistan then.
> 
> List of other links on PDF that may relate to this topic:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-pakistan-doesn-t-need-isi-collaboration.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ban-infiltrate-into-pakistan-afghanistan.html
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...iles-show-isi-listed-terror-organisation.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...isi-had-nothing-do-26-11-gen-athar-abbas.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-pakistan-accuses-us-negative-propaganda.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...arges-four-pakistanis-mumbai-attack-plot.html
> 
> 
> Theses are great signs to come and Pakistan needs not just to improve its ICMB but Jet fighters, Build a long range heavy stratigic bomber, make their navy a Blue water navy have the ability to launch Statlights, creating new technologies.


 
Are you a Muslim?


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

AhaseebA said:


> Nobody is stopping us from getting rid of the US.....except the whole corrupt nation(including myself)...probably we will get rid of US and then go into someone else's slavery...we need to change ourselves...US is not the problem,our behavior is the problem...
> 
> Well there is a way but somethings are just impractical.....its very easy to imagine...
> 
> FYI,To launch a Babur SLCM,we don't need to surface the submarine...


 
Ah wow I did nt know that... so we have capability to launch missiles from beneath the water? 

As for your other points... no the US IS A PROBLEM... our own short comings do not amount to the the destruction we are seeing in our country... once w get rid of this US influence, only then there is room for "looking after our own affairs" and "standing on our own two feet"... the main problem that is keeping us in the dark ages is our economy and that is going no where unless we stick with a Soodi Nizam...


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## The Deterrent

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Ah wow I did nt know that... so we have capability to launch missiles from beneath the water?
> 
> As for your other points... no the US IS A PROBLEM... our own short comings do not amount to the the destruction we are seeing in our country... once w get rid of this US influence, only then there is room for "looking after our own affairs" and "standing on our own two feet"... the main problem that is keeping us in the dark ages is our economy and that is going no where unless we stick with a Soodi Nizam...


 
Yes,work on Babur SLCM is in final stages with testing already begun...

You're complaining about economy.....if you track back each problem we face now,it will lead you to only one inescapable fact...
That we are not sincere with our own country...

Anyway,since this topic is related to the Pakistani ICBM,we must focus on it.....I don't want to discuss anything else except the ICBM in this thread...


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## VelocuR

AhaseebA said:


> Excuse me?....Ra'ad being launched from a submarine?...what happened to Babur SLCM?
> Please don't bluff....*.We don't have AIP submarines yet...*..even if we do,US has detection systems as SOSUS...not to mention US Navy's 55 Destroyers and 75 Submarines.....


 

Under the latest agreement, China will co-produce six AIP technology submarines with Pakistan. Currently, the neighbouring navy (Pakistan) has only one submarine -- PNS Hamza. Pakistan already has one in the shape of PNS Hamza, one of the three French Agosta-90B submarines inducted by it over the last decade. Moreover, work is also underway to retrofit the French "Mesma" AIP in hulls of the other two submarines, PNS Khalid and PNS Saad.

Source

Babar SLCM is under process in different experiments. Time will tell!


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## The Deterrent

RaptorRX707 said:


> Under the latest agreement, China will co-produce six AIP technology submarines with Pakistan. Currently, the neighbouring navy (Pakistan) has only one submarine -- PNS Hamza. Pakistan already has one in the shape of PNS Hamza, one of the three French Agosta-90B submarines inducted by it over the last decade. Moreover, work is also underway to retrofit the French "Mesma" AIP in hulls of the other two submarines, PNS Khalid and PNS Saad.
> 
> Source
> 
> Babar SLCM is under process in different experiments. Time will tell!


 
Thats why I said we don't have AIP submarines *"YET"*...

And I know about Babur SLCM...I was just telling the guy (read my above posts)...time has already told...

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## Conqueror

Acquiring ICBM Technology in itself would be good enough for us. We don't need ICBMs to attack any country in the world but with this tech, we will be able to launch and kill enemy satellites at the time of need. It starts with that and ends with that.


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## Zarvan

Pakistan should develop ICBM and should also develop the naval version of our Cruise Missile so we can cause severe damage to any enemy who should be taught lesson


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## Abdu Samad

Well what I see, India is no longer going to be a threat for Pak in near future. Indian People like us are poor and love peace and they love Pakistanis just like we love their movies but their leadership is problem. Indian knows very well that now war between two countries will be MAD [mutally Assured Destruction] and no one loves to commit suicide. 

However we might have serious threat [a matter of surival or death] from very far. We must have some thing that could reach with surety to 12000 miles. It could be ICBM or SUBs loaded with Cruises. Thu our economy is very bad but this is like, that if I am in my house and it is confirmed to me that a daciot may break in my room any time & murder me; then in this case should I spend money to buy an air conditioner that I need, or a Rifle to defend myself?

Pakistan is very peaceful country and we will never attack any one first, and Noble Quran forbids any kind of offense on any one but BOOK Of ALLAH also emphasize on to keep very strong defense. When attacker will realize that Pak can retaliate up to 12000 miles; no one will dare to balckmail/attack Pakistan. 

No one knows world of today. Ur best friend of today might turn to ur number01 enemy tomorrow. No one knows this. We all Pakistani know about the real danger that we might face in near future but we have bad habbit to turn a blind eye to the facts like that silly pigeon who closed his eyes when was being attacked by a cat. But life for that pigeon is just for one time. He will not come back once his neck is in the teeth of that cat.

*I am very sure, our Scientists like A Q Khan and Dr. Samar have the best brains in world. We request them* to make similar SUB-launched Missiles that a week ago Russia has fired/tested from its SUB from North pole and its traget was near Japan in Valadivostak. - a Range of ICBM. *If Russians can make it, why we cannot?*
First thing that is important, is to improve our economy and reduce corruption which is impossible unless we have honest and sincere Government

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## The Deterrent

Abdu Samad said:


> Well what I see, India is no longer going to be a threat for Pak in near future. Indian People like us are poor and love peace and they love Pakistanis just like we love their movies but their leadership is problem. Indian knows very well that now war between two countries will be MAD [mutally Assured Destruction] and no one loves to commit suicide.
> 
> However we might have serious threat [a matter of surival or death] from very far. We must have some thing that could reach with surety to 12000 miles. It could be ICBM or SUBs loaded with Cruises. Thu our economy is very bad but this is like, that if I am in my house and it is confirmed to me that a daciot may break in my room any time & murder me; then in this case should I spend money to buy an air conditioner that I need, or a Rifle to defend myself?
> 
> Pakistan is very peaceful country and we will never attack any one first, and Noble Quran forbids any kind of offense on any one but BOOK Of ALLAH also emphasize on to keep very strong defense. When attacker will realize that Pak can retaliate up to 12000 miles; no one will dare to balckmail/attack Pakistan.
> 
> No one knows world of today. Ur best friend of today might turn to ur number01 enemy tomorrow. No one knows this. We all Pakistani know about the real danger that we might face in near future but we have bad habbit to turn a blind eye to the facts like that silly pigeon who closed his eyes when was being attacked by a cat. But life for that pigeon is just for one time. He will not come back once his neck is in the teeth of that cat.
> 
> *I am very sure, our Scientists like A Q Khan and Dr. Samar have the best brains in world. We request them* to make similar SUB-launched Missiles that a week ago Russia has fired/tested from its SUB from North pole and its traget was near Japan in Valadivostak. - a Range of ICBM. *If Russians can make it, why we cannot?*
> First thing that is important, is to improve our economy and reduce corruption which is impossible unless we have honest and sincere Government



Nice metaphor...
AQ Khan is sick (he had nothing to do with any missile)...and Mubarakmand is no longer serving in Nescom...but there are other brains available...

We can make a missile with range 11000km.....it will only take a span of 25 years...

Please stop over-estimating our country and its scientists.....they are already doing an extraordinary job...these things take much time...


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## Najam Khan

Producing ICBMs is a political and strategic decision.
If a country produces ICBMs, it implies that it is threatened by another state(s) that comes in the range of the ICBM in question. Having said that, Pakistan's ICBM would give negative (and threatening) signals to those states with whom it does not enjoy good relations. Why would Pakistan want to create more troubles for itself when its plate is already full?

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## Ignited Mind

What's this Pakistani fetish of naming their national assets after pillagers and raiders?


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## PWFI

Ignited Mind said:


> What's this Pakistani fetish of naming their national assets after pillagers and raiders?


 pillagers? raiders? according to hindus?!! right

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## Ignited Mind

PWFI said:


> pillagers? raiders? according to hindus?!! right


 
Ok so somebody barges into your home, loots your house, kills your family and you name your national assets after them?

Great!

I think I just learned a good few things about the Pakistani mentality. Thanks a lot.


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## Water Car Engineer

PWFI said:


> pillagers? raiders? according to hindus?!! right


 
What do you think of what the Mongols did to the Muslims? Timur wasn't the best friend of the Turkish, Persian, or the Muslims in India either btw.

It would be surprising if Pakistan can pull out a ICBM. India is already working on it.


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## Abdu Samad

What I mean that still Smar and A Q Khan are good advisors and our in service scientiists always consult them. So it is not a mephore as u branded it. Ur post show u love to live like a pigeon that I highlighted in my previous post and u are suggesting others to live on the mercy of others, Ur span of 25 yrs is nothing but a bull. Whom are u working for?


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## 53fd

Pakistan already has the ghauri 3 developed which has a range of 4000 km, which is more than enough to strike a lot of places including israel.


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## Abdu Samad

It will be of densive nature and what about those who have laready ICBMS? Are they not already sending threntening signals to others? So ur point is shallow w/o any logic. Self defense is right of every one. Do u wish to live like a sheep so that any one can come and slaughter u under different fabricated slanders?


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## Areesh

Ignited Mind said:


> What's this Pakistani fetish of naming their national assets after pillagers and raiders?


 
I hate when people brag stupidly about the name of the missile. 

Idiotic.


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## xataxsata

Liquid said:


> What do you think of what the Mongols did to the Muslims? Timur wasn't the best friend of the Turkish, Persian, or the Muslims in India either btw.
> 
> It would be surprising if Pakistan can pull out a ICBM. India is already working on it.


 

I don't get the logic of pakistani govt. how they honor every invader and name their missiles after them. Don't they have their own heroes or people worthy of that honor???

What i understand is that they just do it to take some cheap shots and feel pleasure that it might offend Hindus (for them Indian = hindu)

But the fact of the matter is that Taimur have killed and raped more pakistani then Indian.

When some Pakistani feel proud of Indus valley civilization and calls it as their own because of its location in current pakistan then they should also realize that the Taimur came through same pakistan not by taking a train ticket or flying over to India but by killing, butchering thousands of Pakistanis, burning their homes and raping their people before entering into India.

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## Abdu Samad

Grow up. Expand ur thought further to realize the truth


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## Abdu Samad

It is our corrupt leaders' mentality and not a Pakistani mentality. Fix loose nut and bolts in ur head please so u can think properly!


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## Abdu Samad

Before u hate other, better ur hate ur own narrow mind


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## The Deterrent

Abdu Samad said:


> What I mean that still Smar and A Q Khan are good advisors and our in service scientiists always consult them. So it is not a mephore as u branded it. Ur post show u love to live like a pigeon that I highlighted in my previous post and u are suggesting others to live on the mercy of others, Ur span of 25 yrs is nothing but a bull. Whom are u working for?


 
I called the pigeon example as a metaphor.....

Brother,my assessment is based on facts.....if you want to ignore the facts,please go ahead...

Pakistan is not making an ICBM right now,this is confirmed according to my source...



> Whom are u working for?


Yeah,thats what guys like me get for expressing the ground reality...Idiot,do you think I belong to some agency or I'm an Indian?

would you like some facts which I compiled about Pakistani ICBM?


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## The Deterrent

Abdu Samad said:


> It will be of densive nature and what about those who have laready ICBMS? Are they not already sending threntening signals to others? So ur point is shallow w/o any logic. Self defense is right of every one. Do u wish to live like a sheep so that any one can come and slaughter u under different fabricated slanders?


 
This is the modern age my friend.....in future,the country with stabilized economy will win wars.....

BTW nice metaphors...they are not applicable everywhere...


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## The Deterrent

*THE PAKISTANI ICBM
*

First of all,I have very credible information from reliable sources,that no development is being done regarding an ICBM.Maybe some paperwork was done and feasibility reports were taken into consideration,but no solid development towards this project is known...

*REASONS FOR THE NON-EXISTANCE OF THE PROJECT:*

*1. Non-existence of a distant enemy:
*
Except India,there is no other enemy state of Pakistan at the present...the least likely possibility is Israel,which will be covered by the induction of the 4000km range system.Now,some Pakistani youngsters declare US as an enemy state and target,which is 11000km away...just imagine the massive retaliation if a single warhead reaches there which is nearly impossible because by the time we make one,the ABM technology would be much advanced...only one SSBN is enough to take out all the major cities of Pakistan.
If you got a problem with the drones,use the Airforce...if Americans are to be attacked ,we have the ability to take out the military bases in Afghanistan,which would be a better option than the ICBM, but still the worst.

*2.International Pressure:*

Firstly,the International community,especially the US and UK will consider all their aid going waste on the name of WoT...first we ask for aid because we have a feeble economy,then we spend it on making useless ICBMs...
Secondly,everybody would be forced to think that who is our target?...who we are intending to reach?...which will only worsen the image of Pakistan...
Thirdly,since the controversies about the safety of Pakistan's Nuclear Assets (which is ,in fact,very rather very very strong) are ever increasing,the last thing everybody in the world would want is some ICBM landing over their homes just because some terrorists were angry with them...this will certainly prove more disadvantageous for Pakistan...

*3.Limited Funding:*

The new government has cut short the budget for the missile program,and due to this some other programs have been slowed down...
Now a fully functional ICBM project with 15-20 systems,testing systems,storage facilities etc would cost over 300 million US dollars,an amount Pakistan certainly does not have to waste as a precautionary measure...not to mention the already stumbling economy.

I hope that these reasons are enough. 

Also,

*Ghauri-III* has been "under-development" for over a decade,therefore I think Ghauri-III has been shut down because better options like hypothetical Shaheen-III are available...

And *Shaheen-III* is not what you people think it is,I cannot tell more than this...the name of the next long range ballistic missile(4000km) is entirely different...


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## aatayyab

AhaseebA said:


> *THE PAKISTANI ICBM
> *
> 
> First of all,I have very credible information from reliable sources,that no development is being done regarding an ICBM.Maybe some paperwork was done and feasibility reports were taken into consideration,but no solid development towards this project is known...
> 
> *REASONS FOR THE NON-EXISTANCE OF THE PROJECT:*
> 
> *1. Non-existence of a distant enemy:
> *
> Except India,there is no other enemy state of Pakistan at the present...the least likely possibility is Israel,which will be covered by the induction of the 4000km range system.Now,some Pakistani youngsters declare US as an enemy state and target,which is 11000km away...just imagine the massive retaliation if a single warhead reaches there which is nearly impossible because by the time we make one,the ABM technology would be much advanced...only one SSBN is enough to take out all the major cities of Pakistan.
> If you got a problem with the drones,use the Airforce...if Americans are to be attacked ,we have the ability to take out the military bases in Afghanistan,which would be a better option than the ICBM, but still the worst.
> 
> *2.International Pressure:*
> 
> Firstly,the International community,especially the US and UK will consider all their aid going waste on the name of WoT...first we ask for aid because we have a feeble economy,then we spend it on making useless ICBMs...
> Secondly,everybody would be forced to think that who is our target?...who we are intending to reach?...which will only worsen the image of Pakistan...
> Thirdly,since the controversies about the safety of Pakistan's Nuclear Assets (which is ,in fact,very rather very very strong) are ever increasing,the last thing everybody in the world would want is some ICBM landing over their homes just because some terrorists were angry with them...this will certainly prove more disadvantageous for Pakistan...
> 
> *3.Limited Funding:*
> 
> The new government has cut short the budget for the missile program,and due to this some other programs have been slowed down...
> Now a fully functional ICBM project with 15-20 systems,testing systems,storage facilities etc would cost over 300 million US dollars,an amount Pakistan certainly does not have to waste as a precautionary measure...not to mention the already stumbling economy.
> 
> I hope that these reasons are enough.
> 
> Also,
> 
> *Ghauri-III* has been "under-development" for over a decade,therefore I think Ghauri-III has been shut down because better options like hypothetical Shaheen-III are available...
> 
> And *Shaheen-III* is not what you people think it is,I cannot tell more than this...the name of the next long range ballistic missile(4000km) is entirely different...


 
Pakistan is the only country which is being attacked on all fronts and its political leadership is doing nothing about it. However, it is nice to see that Pakistan Army has always been able to keep it 'separate' from the anarchy by Zardari Government. Pakistani defense is in hands of a more capable Army than its "sham" democratic partner in Islamabad. Hopefully Army will continue performing its professional duties without meddling into the civilian affairs. New elections are going to bring someone very much pro-Pakistan in power. Let's all wait and see.


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## Abdu Samad

When I read ur following line:

"Except India,there is no other enemy state of Pakistan at the present.."
LOL
I can conculde with not just 100% but 101% certainity: that:
1- Either u are not living in this planet or if u are living in Pak, u are not aware of situation
2- Or, U are working for some one and want to DELIBERATELY misguide other members of this forum. But u can misguide only kids may be and not to a mature person. What u Said, can be said only by either a blatent sleeping fool or a member of NGO who is working against Pakistan.
Are u a blind who cannot see the situation at western border. 

Read at following link: and STOP UR NON-SENSE in this forum & STOP TO MISGUIDE Pakistanis!!!

http://www.thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=14878

*A Man who want to fight his 3rd war in Pakistan!!* - Watch Youtube Vide Pls.

General Petraeus Faints While Being Questioned By Senator McCain


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## Abdu Samad

U said:

"Except India,there is no other enemy state of Pakistan at the present...the least likely possibility is Israel,which will be covered by the induction of the 4000km range system.Now,some Pakistani *youngsters *declare US as an enemy state and target,which is 11000km away...just imagine the massive retaliation *if a single warhead reaches* there *which is nearly impossible*"

*Again u have proved ur ignorance and Stupidity as an NGO or a foriegn agent: Proof: Mr Youngster: Watch Pakistan capability even 10 yrs ago. Read following:*

Howard Bloom Warning of Nuclear Threat from Pakistan

This is why, a grp of modern-time crusaders is sitting in Afghanistan in order to snatch that ability!!!

I have already said in my previous post that Pakistan is not going to attack any one first. But assume, if your forces start to attack 150 tragets in Pak including nuclear installation, then what u suggest in that sscenario to Pak? What u suggest, what Pak should do then? 

I know ur answer and great advice that will be, just be silent or escape from ur country and also u will say, do not use ur forces otherwise u will have massive retaliation. Will any one believe in ur this nonsensical rant???

A.m link show that Pakistan was able to retaliate at massive scale any attacker up to 12000 miles apart even 10 years ago [refer to above-given link]. Today is 2011. Do u know how many tritium-Blend-Plutoniun warhead based tipped Babars a SUB can carry? Do u know to calculate total numbers of Babars in at least 8 AIP SUBS?

Do u know why 17 French engineers were killed in Karachi many years ago by Balck water? These Engineers were manufacturing Agosta SUBS in Karachi Shiip Yard? The main strength of Pak Navy.

Do you know why Black water [refer to news papers of last week] has attacked again three Pak Navy BUSES? BECAUZZZZZZZZZZZZZ they are scared from Pak Navy. 

Do u know that our agencies and NAB has found recently that just in Karachi over 700 workers of USAID are in fact men of Blackwater?
--------------------------------
Do u know what is present atomic stockpile of Pak? U will say 80~110. No this is not correct, It was in 2001. What is size of today? I will not tell u.

Do U know that Pak scientists from yrs are blending Tritium drops in Plutonium based warheads?
Do u know, by blending Tritium, Power go from KiloTons to MegaTons?

Do u know who was mastermind behind killing of BeNazir?
Do u know who was mastermind behind killing of ZAB?
Do u know who was mastermind behind killing of Zia-Haq?
Do u know who was mastermind behind murder of First Prime minister of Pakistan "Liaqat Ali Khan?
Mr. Yougester! please watch proof in following Video. Speaker in Video is World Class one of the most truthful schloar living in Florida:

Liaquat Ali Khan ko kis ne Shaheed kia tha - raaz khul gaya.


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## The Deterrent

Look,first of all,I do not belong to any NGO nor I am a US national...I'm a patriot just like you,except that I do not let my emotions overwhelm my mind....you can read all my posts to see that...I'm not trying to misguide anyone...if you or anybody doesnt want to believe me,you are free to do so...

I know that US is trying to destabilize Pakistan,but Pakistan is not Afghanistan or Iraq....if US has some evil intentions,we can react wisely.

1. If US attacks Pakistan,it has to do it from the Arabian sea (battle groups) and Afghanistan (military bases)...we have the capability to take out each one of them with our present missiles and Navy...We can even strike US base as far as Iraq and Qatar with nuclear missiles...

2. 12000km is the range of submarines,not missiles....the Nuclear Harpoon capability was developed 2 years ago,not in 2001...Babur SLCM is under going massive testing...it will enter production in 1-2 yrs...

3. I have authentic information from a very credible source that development regarding an ICBM (5500km) is only on the paper work.....it will take if not 25,at least 15 yrs to make an ICBM of 11000km range...during that time US will already have attacked Pakistan...

4. Nuclear installations of Pakistan are the most secured structures in Pakistan,plus US has also admitted that it doesn't know the whereabouts of all of them...US will never destroy these installations,however it may try to snatch the strategic assets...for that exercises have been conducted...
If US does this kind of act,there will be no other option to retaliate on each and every US asset in the region...

5. Exposing the US moves (blackwater,assassinations,bomb blasts) is the job of the ISI (which is doing its part) and the politicians (which are regrettably pro-american)... 

6. No,Pakistan does not yet have the Megaton range nukes...for that thermonuclear weapons are need...Pakistan is atleast 5 years away from developing a thermonuclear weapon... 

7. I said that Ballistic missile warheads cannot reach US,because the have very strong ABM systems and air defenses....

No doubt this time you have raised some serious points.....I hope I have answered them...


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## Abdu Samad

U have not said a word about Professor Howard Bloom? Why? Do u think Howard Bloom was a fool and an ignorant beast when he published this article 10 yrs ago?
Howard Bloom Warning of Nuclear Threat from Pakistan

What u say Credible Report is mostly Incorrect

What u say abt the Video about the Murder of Liaqat Ali Khan? Because u claimed in ur previous post, no one is enemy of Pak except India?

What about the News in which General Petraes has said that he will fight third war in Pakistan and from past 5 days n one from pentagon has denied this report? 

Now a country who wants to fight his 3rd war in Pakistan is ur friend or ur enemy? Because u claimed, No one is enemy of Pak except India? 
Were u a responsible and a sensible person when u claimed so in ur previous post? Was ur claim not shallow and baseless?
U said:
"Pakistan is at least 5 years away from developing a thermonuclear weapon"
May be u forgot to place 2 on the left side of 5 years. Because u said in ur precious post that we are so stupid fool and backward people that we need some more 25 year to upgrade a device. That created doubt in my mind when I asked u; whom are u working for?

Do u not know that in 1998 tests, thermo-nuclear device was also tested. It is 13 yrs from that test now: U are denying the reports of many world level institutions.

U said:
"If US attacks Pakistan,it has to do it from the Arabian sea (battle groups) and Afghanistan (military bases)...we have the capability to take out each one of them with our present missiles and Navy...We can even strike US base as far as Iraq and Qatar with nuclear missiles..."

But house of attacker 11000 KM apart will remain safe, but ur+mine HOUSE will be turned into in pile of debris, so ur this para does not make any sense. What I said is that No matter if it is ICBM or NOT, or SUBSs, we MUST find a way to attack the HOUSE of attacker who will attack our House first. By just hitting in Iraq and Qatar what u will achieve? 

The point that I am trying to make here in this forum is:

THAT YOU WILL NEVER throw A STONE ON MY HOUSE, IF YOU KNOW AHEAD THAT I CAN ALSO THROW A BIG STONE ON YOUR HOUSE AS RETALIATION. 

If u living in US knew ahead that I have only ability to hit ur car that is parked [in Qatar or Iraq or Afghanistan] far away from ur actual house, then It will not prevent u to attack me. I am talking about real deterrent.

I am never in favor of a war unless some one impose on us, as wars brings nothing but misery


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## The Deterrent

*I AM NOT AN AMERICAN....*

You have read my post in a hurry.....please calm down,be polite and read again what I have said...

I already wrote that US is trying to destabilise Pakistan and is involved in assassinations,bombings etc......but it is the job of the officials to uncover them...

I'm sorry I exaggerated when I wrote 25 years...

What proof do you have that Pakistan tested a thermonuclear device in 1998?...the 6th test was of a plutonium device which was of lesser weight and was designed to be delivered by missiles.....all the rest where Uranium fission devices...it is proved by their yields...largest was 35kt...

We should focus on developing a strong economy,get independent of US aid and then kick them out of Pakistan...

Of course we should retaliate massively beyond the region too,but we just do not have the weapons (ICBMs) for now...and honestly,I don't think US will attack directly on Pakistan unless it makes Pakistan internally weak...

Look,brother...we should have high hopes for our country...but not that high...
My assessment is based on our history and our capabilities...

Lastly,I will not be able to continue this discussion except on the ICBM because:
1. In PDF,we stick to the topic...trolling is avoided...you can post your thoughts in the Geo-political issues section...
2. I do not have enough knowledge,neither I am capable of discussing Geo-political issues...
3. As long as your discussion is related to Pakistan's WMDs and Missiles,I will willingly reply...

Everybody is free to share his own views and information in PDF...so please stop acting aggressively...

PS: I am not running or anything...


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## aatayyab

This is so non-sense whenever I see people using emotions to stir up anything between USA and Pakistan. Pakistan Armed Forces are "part" and "parcel" of US Armed Forces. They are one and same. And Taliban are essentially the product of such a marriage between two nations. Whatever war you see now-a-days, it is an endless war against extremists. These extremist elements (whoever is now-a-days sponsoring them) are the very reason that all these forces everywhere in the world are fighting against them. Unfortunately, the bitter truth could be that all of these nations are involved in some sort of dirty tactics of espionage against each other. This war game must end right away. Every country's interests are inter-woven with each other's. Nobody can afford war, hence this non-sense needs to stop. Let peace and love win. Instead of involving in bigger wars, we can easily continue this intra-agencies cooperation to find these "extremist" elements. Looks like someone up in the ladder lost his/her sanity.


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## T-Rex

aatayyab said:


> This is so non-sense whenever I see people using emotions to stir up anything between USA and Pakistan. Pakistan Armed Forces are "part" and "parcel" of US Armed Forces. They are one and same. And Taliban are essentially the product of such a marriage between two nations. Whatever war you see now-a-days, it is an endless war against extremists. These extremist elements (whoever is now-a-days sponsoring them) are the very reason that all these forces everywhere in the world are fighting against them. Unfortunately, the bitter truth could be that all of these nations are involved in some sort of dirty tactics of espionage against each other. This war game must end right away. Every country's interests are inter-woven with each other's. Nobody can afford war, hence this non-sense needs to stop. Let peace and love win. Instead of involving in bigger wars, we can easily continue this intra-agencies cooperation to find these "extremist" elements. Looks like someone up in the ladder lost his/her sanity.



Your speech is noble but hollow, it has no touch with the ground reality. Everybody like you talks of peace but no one shows a logical and just way to achieve it. Not until you can convince the war mongers in Washington or Tel Aviv not to wage wars in order to continue their hegemony will there be peace. People like netanyahu of israel talk about peace and at the same time expand the illegal settlements in Palestine. After that when people like you talk of peace it sounds like you're trying to make fun of the miseries of the oppressed people.

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## aatayyab

T-Rex said:


> Your speech is noble but hollow, it has no touch with the ground reality. Everybody like you talks of peace but no one shows a logical and just way to achieve it. Not until you can convince the war mongers in Washington or Tel Aviv not to wage wars in order to continue their hegemony will there be peace. People like netanyahu of israel talk about peace and at the same time expand the illegal settlements in Palestine. After that when people like you talk of peace it sounds like you're trying to make fun of the miseries of the oppressed people.


 
Since you started addressing me directly via "you" comment, hence I'd at least expect you to say "hi", if not a "Salam". The path to peace is simple and straight forward. Simply give up the arms and migrate to a land where you can gather enough strength to counter missiles with missiles, instead of the Palestinian stones countering the Israeli tanks. I'd never let my family live in such a hostile environment. We can rather request the neighboring Muslim countries to take all those Palestinian refugees and let Israel have its own "moment". I'm not trying to make fun of the miseries of oppressed people you fool. I'm trying to come up with some sort of a saner and more common-sense option to live. 

Does it ring any sort of "realistic" bells in your head? 

Wassalam,

Amir
Qurango.com

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

aatayyab... actually this is what will solve the problem... only when Israel is matched by Muslims with might that this problem will be solved once and for all inshaAllah


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## T-Rex

aatayyab said:


> Since you started addressing me directly via "you" comment, hence I'd at least expect you to say "hi", if not a "Salam". The path to peace is simple and straight forward. Simply give up the arms and migrate to a land where you can gather enough strength to counter missiles with missiles, instead of the Palestinian stones countering the Israeli tanks. I'd never let my family live in such a hostile environment. We can rather request the neighboring Muslim countries to take all those Palestinian refugees and let Israel have its own "moment". I'm not trying to make fun of the miseries of oppressed people you fool. I'm trying to come up with some sort of a saner and more common-sense option to live.
> 
> Does it ring any sort of "realistic" bells in your head?
> 
> Wassalam,
> 
> Amir
> Qurango.com



No one is suggesting to the Palestinians that they battle the Israeli tanks with stones. However, suggesting that they migrate to other Muslim states and spend their lives as refugees doesn&#8217;t sound like &#8216;realistic bell&#8217; but sounds more like an israeli tune to me. BTW would you please mention which Muslim state has that utopian atmosphere where the Palestinians can concentrate on building missiles for countering the Israeli missiles? Are you from Mars? What&#8217;s on your mind, wiseguy?

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## farhan_9909

we want this soon

if we had this ICBM operational 

USA would not even dare to attack us like they are scaring from North korea.north korea missile can reach north america

we need this ICBM to be operational soon

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## T-Rex

farhan_9909 said:


> we want this soon
> 
> if we had this ICBM operational
> 
> USA would not even dare to attack us like they are scaring from North korea.north korea missile can reach north america
> 
> we need this ICBM to be operational soon



I believe Pakistan has a window of opportunity to test its ICBM. If it cannot produce one within a year Pakistan should get some from China. I don't think america is going to wait long before they try to neutralise Pakistan's nukes.

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Question is... Is anyone sincere to our land and people who can do something about this reading our discussion here?? Will they be doing anything about it??

We should ve grown some sense long time ago and worked on our ICBM tech along with the nukes... 

At least for me personally we wont have The America can bomb us to Stone Age nonsense flown in my face, any time I talk about the Caliphate..

What a relief that would be...


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## T-Rex

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Question is... Is anyone sincere to our land and people who can do something about this reading our discussion here?? Will they be doing anything about it??
> 
> We should ve grown some sense long time ago and worked on our ICBM tech along with the nukes...
> 
> At least for me personally we wont have The America can bomb us to Stone Age nonsense flown in my face, any time I talk about the Caliphate..
> 
> What a relief that would be...



Forum like this is part of the wider electronic mass media and those who have doubts about the impact of it should look at what happened in Tunisia and Egypt. You have to have faith in Allah and do what you can and He will do the rest; He will make them listen to what you say. Why do you think the americans and indians are so active on this forum? It's because they know the impact of it but don't expect them to admit that to you. To you they will say that you're waisting your time and energy but you won't see them staying away from it.


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## Manoj.pandey33

I dont think so, this is just waste of money.


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## T-Rex

Manoj.pandey33 said:


> I dont think so, this is just waste of money.



Yeah, I say the same thing to you! So, get the f*** off and spend your time and money somewhere else!


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## T-Rex

Manoj.pandey33 said:


> I dont think so, this is just waste of money.



Yeah, I say the same thing to you! So, get the f*** off and spend your time and money somewhere else!


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## The Deterrent

T-Rex said:


> I believe Pakistan has a window of opportunity to test its ICBM. If it cannot produce one within a year Pakistan should get some from China. I don't think america is going to wait long before they try to neutralise Pakistan's nukes.


 
Pakistan is far,far away from testing an ICBM of the range that can reach US (11000km)...

Getting an ICBM from China will only worsen our image in the world.....
US can never neutralize our Nukes,unless Pakistan is weak enough that it disintegrates (God forbid)...the defences of these installations are strong and impenetrable...

(I heard from a source,that a strategic asset is located in far vicinity of Abottabad.PAF thought that US aircrafts (which originated from Tarbela-Ghazi) are after that so it shot down one Blackhawk from gunfire...after that they were escorted to PAF airbase Risalpur,from where they were set free...I am considering it another conspiracy theory...)


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## T-Rex

AhaseebA said:


> Getting an ICBM from China will only worsen our image in the world....



If you think too much about image you can do nothing. Besides, Pakistan's image in the west is predetermined by fate, you cannot change that.



AhaseebA said:


> US can never neutralize our Nukes,unless Pakistan is weak enough that it disintegrates (God forbid)...the defences of these installations are strong and impenetrable...



Never say never. It's good to have confidence but overconfidence is one of the worst human traits. Never underestimate an adversary and specially an adversary like uncle sam. Hitler and many like him faced defeat because of overconfidence, Hitler had underestimated the power of USSR.


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## The Deterrent

T-Rex said:


> If you think too much about image you can do nothing. Besides, Pakistan's image in the west is predetermined by fate, you cannot change that.
> 
> 
> 
> Never say never. It's good to have confidence but overconfidence is one of the worst human traits. Never underestimate an adversary and specially an adversary like uncle sam. Hitler and many like him faced defeat because of overconfidence, Hitler had underestimated the power of USSR.


 
True we should never overestimate our enemy.....thats why I mentioned a condition...


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## T-Rex

AhaseebA said:


> True we should never overestimate our enemy.....thats why I mentioned a condition...



You overestimate the value of image and underestimate an adversary; not a good sign. I hope our leaders can overcome this weakness.


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## The Deterrent

T-Rex said:


> You overestimate the value of image and underestimate an adversary; not a good sign. I hope our leaders can overcome this weakness.


 
Anyway.....but it is a fact that Pakistani ICBMs are a myth...

Pakistan is focusing more on Short-range systems.In other words, PA,SPD,ASFC have decided that if a nuclear war is to be fought against a country,the country would be India...this is evident from the following systems:

Newly inducted NASR
Upgraded ABDALI,GHAZNAVI,SHAHEEN-I

and more short range system(s) to be inducted in future...

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## Malik Usman

psugumar said:


> For attacking India or Isrel (may be possible future threat) Pak does not need ICBM,Can any of our friends tell me if there is any significance Pakistan spending on ICBM?


 

IF Pakistan don't need ICBM, then why india is makeing mountains of weapons and increasing its stockpiles and increasing its defence budget every year like hell................what you need for that..........better tell your govt....to spend that money on your poor peoples.....coz in India still there are more poor peoples than Africa.


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## The Deterrent

Malik Usman said:


> IF Pakistan don't need ICBM, then why india is makeing mountains of weapons and increasing its stockpiles and increasing its defence budget every year like hell................what you need for that..........better tell your govt....to spend that money on your poor peoples.....coz in India still there are more poor peoples than Africa.


 
Brother,India is already in range of Pakistani systems.....we don't need ICBMs for attacking India...
The only thing left to achieve (against India) is the MIRV capability...


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## T-Rex

AhaseebA said:


> Brother,India is already in range of Pakistani systems.....we don't need ICBMs for attacking India...
> The only thing left to achieve (against India) is the MIRV capability...



Times have changed and so are the circumstances, some on this forum are totally ignorant of it or deliberately ignore it. Yes, india is still a potent threat to Pakistan but the fact is it is not india which has been violating Pakistan's sovereignty for the last six or seven years. If it ever happens, it won't be india to snatch away Pakistan's nukes. Some on this forum need to understand that priorities have changed for Pakistan. In life priorities keep changing, those who ignore it are fools.

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

T Rex gets my vote for the coolest (ex) Pakistani of this forum!!!!


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## Abdu Samad

Attention: Dear *AhaseebA*


*One Million Dollar Question*

*Who is Number ONE enemy of Pakistan?*

Is it Sri Lanka or Nepal or Vetican City or Somalia or Greenland or Brunai or India or USA?

"The US plan to make peace with the Taliban in reality involves the idea that the US can gain control of the Pashtun population and play that ethnic group in a cross-border civil war into Pakistan with the idea being the same one it's always been: wake up Pakistan into the Sindh, Punjabi, the Baluchistan area, the [Pakhtunkhwa] area.

In other words, fragment Pakistan in four ways, which will mean that you'll never have a Pakistan energy pipeline with an oil pipeline from Iran into China. And that is the big strategic goal.

*So the breakup of Pakistan is at the top of the agenda of USA*. And it has to be done indirectly because Pakistan, of course, has nuclear weapons. In a certain way, nuclear deterrence is operative against the United States in several military realms." 

*Reference links are below: *

Islam Times - 'US seeks to divide Pakistan'

PressTV - 'US seeks to Balkanize Mideast'

Is Pakistan weaker even than North Korea or Iran or Vanzvela?. 

NO; but Pak GOV is coward because is a grp of sold out stooges


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## T-Rex

Abdu Samad said:


> Attention: Dear *AhaseebA*
> 
> 
> *One Million Dollar Question*
> 
> *Who is Number ONE enemy of Pakistan?*
> 
> Is it Sri Lanka or Nepal or Vetican City or Somalia or Greenland or Brunai or India or USA?
> 
> "The US plan to make peace with the Taliban in reality involves the idea that the US can gain control of the Pashtun population and play that ethnic group in a cross-border civil war into Pakistan with the idea being the same one it's always been: wake up Pakistan into the Sindh, Punjabi, the Baluchistan area, the [Pakhtunkhwa] area.
> 
> In other words, fragment Pakistan in four ways, which will mean that you'll never have a Pakistan energy pipeline with an oil pipeline from Iran into China. And that is the big strategic goal.
> 
> *So the breakup of Pakistan is at the top of the agenda of USA*. And it has to be done indirectly because Pakistan, of course, has nuclear weapons. In a certain way, nuclear deterrence is operative against the United States in several military realms."
> 
> *Reference links are below: *
> 
> Islam Times - 'US seeks to divide Pakistan'
> 
> PressTV - 'US seeks to Balkanize Mideast'
> 
> Is Pakistan weaker even than North Korea or Iran or Vanzvela?.
> 
> NO; but Pak GOV is coward because is a grp of sold out stooges



It's now an open secret that the americans are helping the indains in Beluchistan. Uncle sam desperately needs to break up Pakistan, but uncle sam wants to be seen as a trusted friend of Pakistan. Hence, uncle sam employs its age old tactics of terrorism in its worst form.

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## khurasaan1

T-Rex said:


> It's now an open secret that the americans are helping the indains in Beluchistan. Uncle sam desperately needs to break up Pakistan, but uncle sam wants to be seen as a trusted friend of Pakistan. Hence, uncle sam employs its age old tactics of terrorism in its worst form.


Yes! we already knw that ..their NGOz are running day and night supporting terrorists of TTP and otherz financially and materialistically to carry out their terrorist activities around the country....and this is our punishment from Allah SBWT cuz we dont differentiate between Halaal and Haraam....cuz our govt is takng Haraam from US in $$$ and letting US/NGOz to carry out their covert business inside here.....


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## IND151

having ICBM is not good idea for Pakistan. Israel will exploit this situation. Europe and america will place sanctions on it. 
first Pakistan should try to improve its economic strength. once you have sound economy you will not have to be afraid of sanctions.

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## T-Rex

IND151 said:


> having ICBM is not good idea for Pakistan. Israel will exploit this situation. Europe and america will place sanctions on it.
> first Pakistan should try to improve its economic strength. once you have sound economy you will not have to be afraid of sanctions.



Do you think pakistan's enemies will just sit there while Pakistan improves its economy? Pakistan will not be allowed to have political or economic stability and that's quite clear from uncle sam's drone attacks and india's terrorism in Beluchistan. For indians nothing can be worse than Pakistan somehow finding a way to block uncle sam's nuclear blackmail against Pakistan.


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## The Deterrent

Abdu Samad said:


> Attention: Dear *AhaseebA*
> 
> 
> *One Million Dollar Question*
> 
> *Who is Number ONE enemy of Pakistan?*
> 
> Is it Sri Lanka or Nepal or Vetican City or Somalia or Greenland or Brunai or India or USA?
> 
> "The US plan to make peace with the Taliban in reality involves the idea that the US can gain control of the Pashtun population and play that ethnic group in a cross-border civil war into Pakistan with the idea being the same one it's always been: wake up Pakistan into the Sindh, Punjabi, the Baluchistan area, the [Pakhtunkhwa] area.
> 
> In other words, fragment Pakistan in four ways, which will mean that you'll never have a Pakistan energy pipeline with an oil pipeline from Iran into China. And that is the big strategic goal.
> 
> *So the breakup of Pakistan is at the top of the agenda of USA*. And it has to be done indirectly because Pakistan, of course, has nuclear weapons. In a certain way, nuclear deterrence is operative against the United States in several military realms."
> 
> *Reference links are below: *
> 
> Islam Times - 'US seeks to divide Pakistan'
> 
> PressTV - 'US seeks to Balkanize Mideast'
> 
> Is Pakistan weaker even than North Korea or Iran or Vanzvela?.
> 
> NO; but Pak GOV is coward because is a grp of sold out stooges


 
I know what US is doing over here...you don't need to tell me this...

I'm just saying that we have to terminate all kinds of relations with US if we are to take aggressive steps...

IMO,we should stop cooperation with US in all fields including WoT,and kick them out...
Also the Government and ISI should expose these moves...they should tell the world that this is wrong...

(and please stop considering me as an anti-Pakistan person...I'm just telling the truth that Pakistani ICBMs do not exist,for whatever reasons that might be...)


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## The Deterrent

For those who think that we should go with direct war with US...

Awaz Kamran Shahid kay sath | Kamran Shahid - May 09 2011 Talk Show @ Pakistan Herald

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## The Deterrent

We just do not have enough resources to back us up in case of a new conflict with any country.....

Make ICBMs, fine...then what? not use them? or use them and extinguish ourselves?

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## T-Rex

AhaseebA said:


> For those who think that we should go with direct war with US...
> 
> Awaz Kamran Shahid kay sath | Kamran Shahid - May 09 2011 Talk Show @ Pakistan Herald



Who told you that having ICBMs means going to war with the US? Russia has them, China has them, are they at war with the US? There's no logic in what you're saying. You're just speculating what the US might do and in the same way I can also speculate what the US might not do. ICBMs are for preventing wars, not for waging wars. Matter of fact, sooner or later Pakistan will find itself at war with the war-mongers in Washington if it does not develop its own ICBMs.

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## farhan_9909

ICBM is very imp for PAkstan

we have nukes right but we dont have anything to deliever them to the USA.

we need ICBM

if we had ICBM american wont dare to attack us like north korea
USA would have invaded north korea bt due to the north korean ICBM they know that Norrth korea will turn our city into hiroshima


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## khurasaan1

T-Rex said:


> Who told you that having ICBMs means going to war with the US? Russia has them, China has them, are they at war with the US? There's no logic in what you're saying. You're just speculating what the US might do and in the same way I can also speculate what the US might not do. ICBMs are for preventing wars, not for waging wars. Matter of fact, sooner or later Pakistan will find itself at war with the war-mongers in Washington if it does not develop its own ICBMs.


 
+++++++11111111111111
yes!!!!!!!!!


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## moha199

Falcon2 said:


> I dont think Pak has any ICBM.However they might be working on one and Taimur might be a classified ICBM project for the future.I hope we do get one in the future.When Pak test fired Babur , it shocked the world.


 
I'm positive that Pakistan has ICBM and i'm 1000% sure we do possess it, Reason is because if you go back in 2007 and early 2008. You will see Musharraf declaring that 2008 will be the year of Space for Pakistan. Now he declared many times on many international levels, All went wrong when Pakistan got hit with a political storm and fake DemoCRAZY took place and Pakistani economy went in the hands of IMF AND WORLD BANK AND USA.


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## T-Rex

moha199 said:


> I'm positive that Pakistan has ICBM and i'm 1000% sure we do possess it, Reason is because if you go back in 2007 and early 2008. You will see Musharraf declaring that 2008 will be the year of Space for Pakistan. Now he declared many times on many international levels, All went wrong when Pakistan got hit with a political storm and fake DemoCRAZY took place and Pakistani economy went in the hands of IMF AND WORLD BANK AND USA.



It may be true but there's no sign of it right now. Pakistan can say that its sovereignty is in real danger and in order to safeguard its sovereignty Pakistan has the opportunity to test its ICBM, that is, if it really has any.

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## The Deterrent

moha199 said:


> I'm positive that Pakistan has ICBM and i'm 1000% sure we do possess it, Reason is because if you go back in 2007 and early 2008. You will see Musharraf declaring that 2008 will be the year of Space for Pakistan. Now he declared many times on many international levels, All went wrong when Pakistan got hit with a political storm and fake DemoCRAZY took place and Pakistani economy went in the hands of IMF AND WORLD BANK AND USA.


 
No,Pakistan doesn't have an ICBM....I have credible source(s)...
Space program doesn't mean that you can deliver a warhead 11,000 km away...


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## The Deterrent

T-Rex said:


> Who told you that having ICBMs means going to war with the US? Russia has them, China has them, are they at war with the US? There's no logic in what you're saying. You're just speculating what the US might do and in the same way I can also speculate what the US might not do. ICBMs are for preventing wars, not for waging wars. Matter of fact, sooner or later Pakistan will find itself at war with the war-mongers in Washington if it does not develop its own ICBMs.


 
It will send a message though.....that we will use it IF you don't stop...for that we have to first break all relations with them...

I mean you just can't say that "we can nuke you" after we receive the damn aid....


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## T-Rex

AhaseebA said:


> It will send a message though.....that we will use it IF you don't stop...for that we have to first break all relations with them...
> I mean you just can't say that "we can nuke you" after we receive the damn aid....



What's wrong in sending a message, isn't america sending its messages to the entire world everyday, but can you make them admit what kind of message they are sending? Besides, what kind of message do you think Russia and China are sending by having ICBMs? So, why are you making such a big deal about this message.


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## moha199

AhaseebA said:


> No,Pakistan doesn't have an ICBM....I have credible source(s)...
> Space program doesn't mean that you can deliver a warhead 11,000 km away...


 What is your source. I have as Ex president of Pakistan, what is your source? launching SLV is equal to warhead! What are you talking about!!!


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## T-Rex

moha199 said:


> What is your source. I have as Ex president of Pakistan, what is your source? launching SLV is equal to warhead! What are you talking about!!!



You cannot convince this guy. Most probably he and his family live in the US and has a lot to lose if hostilities between Pakistan and the US break out.


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## Juice

This continuous talk of nuking everyone is why many think Pakistan is not a mature enough country to control nukes. And if you do have an ICBM with fission warheads and fired them at the US, it would definantly hurt (if they got through)... but your country would cease to exist. Plus the many Pakis living in western nations would have a rather rough time of it.


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## T-Rex

Juice said:


> This continuous talk of nuking everyone is why many think Pakistan is not a mature enough country to control nukes. And if you do have an ICBM with fission warheads and fired them at the US, it would definantly hurt (if they got through)... but your country would cease to exist. Plus the many Pakis living in western nations would have a rather rough time of it.



So, having ICBMs is same as nuking everyone. It's really amazing how some people twist what their 'enemies' say in order to portray them as villains. Nukes in the hands of warmongers like bush and obama is the most dangerous prospect for the world.


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## Juice

T-Rex said:


> So, having ICBMs is same as nuking everyone. It's really amazing how some people twist what their 'enemies' say in order to portray them as villains. Nukes in the hands of warmongers like bush and obama is the most dangerous prospect for the world.


 
Have you read much of this forum?


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## majesticpankaj

ICBM is not a toy to have....look at the implication of having a ICBM.. India is already under the missile range pf pakistan.. ICBM will generate thret in western countries only.. because apart from that they do not have any so called enemy.. in retaliation there will be trade embargo, sanctions and etc.... 
alredy west having a defence system in place which is more capable and advance that pakistan can ever have...

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## The Deterrent

moha199 said:


> What is your source. I have as Ex president of Pakistan, what is your source? launching SLV is equal to warhead! What are you talking about!!!


 
Its in NDC.....
(read my thread "Tactical Nuclear Delivery Systems") 


No,launching SLV doesn't mean that you can land a warhead anywhere.....the smallest SLV can be modified to deliver warheads fromm3000-5000 km (I suppose)...but US is 11,000 km away...


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## The Deterrent

moha199 said:


> What is your source. I have as Ex president of Pakistan, what is your source? launching SLV is equal to warhead! What are you talking about!!!


 
The Ex-president also said that Ghauri failed.....now you don't believe that,do you?


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## The Deterrent

T-Rex said:


> You cannot convince this guy. Most probably he and his family live in the US and has a lot to lose if hostilities between Pakistan and the US break out.


 
Its a pity that my Nation assumes things so quickly and is best at making conspiracy theories (although most of them are true)...

Who told you guys that I am a US national?.....Yaar main aik Pakistani hoon,aur rawalpindi main rahta hoon....meri saari family yahin muqeem hai...
jo cheez nai hai wo nai hai...main sirf ye chahta hoon k aap logon ko sach bataon...laikin aap log mante hi nahi ho...


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

AhaseebA said:


> We just do not have enough resources to back us up in case of a new conflict with any country.....
> 
> Make ICBMs, fine...then what? not use them? or use them and extinguish ourselves?


 
You forget the prospect that you also extinguish the enemy... and our enemy is arrogant but not stupid...


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## The Deterrent

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> You forget the prospect that you also extinguish the enemy... and our enemy is arrogant but not stupid...


 
Exactly,our enemy is not stupid.....it will make sure that every step is well countered...


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## moha199

T-Rex said:


> You cannot convince this guy. Most probably he and his family live in the US and has a lot to lose if hostilities between Pakistan and the US break out.


 
Excuse me T REX? Having ICBM doesn't mean that Pakistan start nuking or attacking countries or USA for this matter. I don't believe that Pakistan should declare herself as ICBM stat as well because it will further create problems for Pakistan nothing less. Any country against Pakistan knows well that what Paskistan possess or no!If hostility breaks out between Pakistan and USA, it is bad for both countries, not one, well im not one of those morons who believe that we can challenge USA in anyways, I believe that Pakistan should build up and become strong in next 15-20 years and once we are strong enough and have reputation in world, then we can challenge anyone, but most likely we won't have to by then BUT if we get stronger!

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## moha199

AhaseebA said:


> The Ex-president also said that Ghauri failed.....now you don't believe that,do you?


 listen man idk what happen to this forum seriously, where are the mods of old times. Indeed initial Ghauri test failed and it was reported by other generals as well way back in 2002, but no one said that Ghuri failed as a missile? Test could be failed but then you work on it and we did, and made it perfect!!!!


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## The Deterrent

moha199 said:


> listen man idk what happen to this forum seriously, where are the mods of old times. Indeed initial Ghauri text failed and it was reported by other generals as well way back in 2002, but no one said that Ghuri failed as a missile? Text could be failed but then you work on it and we did, and made it perfect!!!!


 
Exactly.....Please excuse me as I confused you with other people....
I was talking about 1 or 2 tests of course.....Ghauri is perfectly ready for use by the PA and ASFC...

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

AhaseebA said:


> Exactly,our enemy is not stupid.....it will make sure that every step is well countered...


 
The reason why people question your identity is because you are playing the devil's advocate and desire to keep Pakistan in permanent slavery... as I remember you actually changed your stance once and agreed that we need ICBMs... are you not in agreement anymore?


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## The Deterrent

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> The reason why people question your identity is because you are playing the devil's advocate and desire to keep Pakistan in permanent slavery... as I remember you actually changed your stance once and agreed that we need ICBMs... are you not in agreement anymore?


 
What?I desire to keep Pakistan in permanent slavery???
If you think that an ICBM can stop UCAV attacks,you're dreaming...Our Airforce is well armed with Side-winders and AIM-120...we can take them out anytime...provided the GoP gives the order...

If we stop receiving aid from US,if our politicians stop consulting with US before taking major decisions,we can get out of slavery... 

I'm still confused why we need an ICBM.....since I cannot explain my view point clearly (for now),I am not discussing "why"

I am available for discussion regarding "what" and "when"...


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## T-Rex

AhaseebA said:


> Such rude behaviour will get you no where and it cannot prove your point...
> These are facts.....I dont think that we should ignore them...
> 
> 
> I am just telling the reality...I explained the possible reasons,a few of them might be wrong...
> You are free to disagree...



You do not know what reality is, people who say, *"I'm still confused why we need an ICBM.....since I cannot explain my view point clearly (for now),I am not discussing "why"* have nothing to do with facts or logic, they are guided by their unreliable sensory organs and emotions! They fail to grasp the implication of what they say, which makes them out as a tool for the enemy.


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## khurasaan1

T-Rex said:


> You do not know what reality is, people who say, *"I'm still confused why we need an ICBM.....since I cannot explain my view point clearly (for now),I am not discussing "why"* have nothing to do with facts or logic, they are guided by their unreliable sensory organs and emotions! They fail to grasp the implication of what they say, which makes them out as a tool for the enemy.


 
I guess he dont wanna be free....and independant of any threats especially from US.....Indeed we need ICBMz at all costs plus hypersonic cruise ICBMz...so that no system in the world can stop them...to keep us safe from any enemy in the world.....Insha-Allah....


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

AhaseebA said:


> What?I desire to keep Pakistan in permanent slavery???
> If you think that an ICBM can stop UCAV attacks,you're dreaming...Our Airforce is well armed with Side-winders and AIM-120...we can take them out anytime...provided the GoP gives the order...
> 
> If we stop receiving aid from US,if our politicians stop consulting with US before taking major decisions,we can get out of slavery...
> 
> I'm still confused why we need an ICBM.....since I cannot explain my view point clearly (for now),I am not discussing "why"
> 
> I am available for discussion regarding "what" and "when"...


 
Perhaps you ve missed the tons of discussion that we have had on these issues before... Firstly there is absolutely no will on part of either the traitor Government as well as the Traitor, Sell Out and Scumbag top brass of Pak Army to tackle the drone issue... Secondly we have been told numerous times here by sincere elements that America is going to bomb us to stone age if we dare challenge it in any way or form (e.g drone issue)... So we are left with no choice except to procure ICBMs and aim them at Washington D.C as deterrence...

This is now the task of the sincere elements within Pak Army and all resistance to this idea should be noted and documented... This is how Pak Army can recognize the snakes within its sleeve!!!


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## The Deterrent

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Perhaps you ve missed the tons of discussion that we have had on these issues before... Firstly there is absolutely no will on part of either the traitor Government as well as the Traitor, Sell Out and Scumbag top brass of Pak Army to tackle the drone issue... Secondly we have been told numerous times here by sincere elements that America is going to bomb us to stone age if we dare challenge it in any way or form (e.g drone issue)... So we are left with no choice except to procure ICBMs and aim them at Washington D.C as deterrence...


You said we should procure ICBMs.....how?
Keeping in mind that DC is 11,000 km away.....


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## secularbuster

AhaseebA said:


> Look,you guys have little technical knowledge of the ICBM...
> 
> By definition,ICBM is a missile with 5500 km+ range...US is 11,000 km away...until now,we have made Shaheen-II with 2750km max range with a suitable warhead...
> 
> In my opinion,we should have strong diplomacy so that US is forced to stop itself.....it requires guts to fire even an SRBM (not required against India)...if the GoP does not have them to shoot down a drone,ICBM chalana to door ki Baat hai...
> 
> Gar hamari economy strong hogi,to dunya hamare saath hogi...as in case of India...



Yes, I also think that instead of wasting resources on ICBMs Pakistan should develop missiles that cannot prevent uncle sam's sweet nuclear blackmail. Pakistan can convince uncle sam not to attack Pakistan by sending some beautiful Pakistani ladies to the parties held in Washington. Who says power of love cannot change the world?

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

AhaseebA said:


> You said we should procure ICBMs.....how?
> Keeping in mind that DC is 11,000 km away.....


 
Thats the easy part... just get me the state funds... I ll get you the ICBMs... LOL

Man what are you... a clown... no offence but you really think its impossible to get some missiles from all these countries desperate to sell their weapons for a good profit... Any Russian on this forum??


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

secularbuster said:


> Yes, I also think that instead of wasting resources on ICBMs Pakistan should develop missiles that cannot prevent uncle sam's sweet nuclear blackmail. Pakistan can convince uncle sam not to attack Pakistan by sending some beautiful Pakistani ladies to the parties held in Washington. Who says power of love cannot change the world?


 
Those kinda things happen in the movies only... unless you got your Ms Lewinsky in the white house... its better to play it safe... the lady may actually double cross you... they can be unpredictable...


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## secularbuster

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Those kinda things happen in the movies only... unless you got your Ms Lewinsky in the white house... its better to play it safe... the lady may actually double cross you... they can be unpredictable...



Hey, I'm just giving a boost to our friend, Ahseeba on this forum. She thinks that ICBMs are only for america and her allies. Uncle sam will be really angry with Pakistan if Pakistan somehow claims a share in it! I think she has a point though the point seems no point to most of us.


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## The Deterrent

secularbuster said:


> Hey, I'm just giving a boost to our friend, Ahseeba on this forum. She thinks that ICBMs are only for america and her allies. Uncle sam will be really angry with Pakistan if Pakistan somehow claims a share in it! I think she has a point though the point seems no point to most of us.


 
I am a male.....

Of course a possible ICBM is intented for US/Nato....who else might be our enemy? Mexico?


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## The Deterrent

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Thats the easy part... just get me the state funds... I ll get you the ICBMs... LOL
> 
> Man what are you... a clown... no offence but you really think its impossible to get some missiles from all these countries desperate to sell their weapons for a good profit... Any Russian on this forum??


 
Clown? I am afraid that would be you...

First,no country (Russia or China) would sell us that (11,000km range missile)....as it contains a handsome amount of technology which is sacred to them...
Second,we have a treaty that prevents announced trading of 300+km range ballistic missile...
Third,if we somehow conclude the deal,we can never procure them secretly...

And if we get caught,you know what the world is gonna think and say.....

Third,


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## secularbuster

AhaseebA said:


> I am a male.....
> 
> Of course a possible ICBM is intented for US/Nato....who else might be our enemy? Mexico?



Only america and her allies have the right to have ICBMs, this is what I meant. Your understanding of English is alos very poor.

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## ChineseTiger1986

AhaseebA said:


> Clown? I am afraid that would be you...
> 
> First,no country (Russia or China) would sell us that (11,000km range missile)....as it contains a handsome amount of technology which is sacred to them...
> Second,we have a treaty that prevents announced trading of 300+km range ballistic missile...
> Third,if we somehow conclude the deal,we can never procure them secretly...
> 
> And if we get caught,you know what the world is gonna think and say.....
> 
> Third,


 
Russia, of course, will not sell any relevant technology to Pakistan. but how you can underestimate the friendship between China and Pakistan?

China even sold the DF-3 ballistic missiles to Saudi Arabia back in 1980s. Today, the technology of DF-31A is very cheap for China, and our primary deterrence will drift to DF-41 and JL-2A. And DF-5 will soon be retired, even giving it as a gift to Pakistan isn't out of question.

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## secularbuster

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Russia, of course, will not sell any relevant technology to Pakistan. but how you can underestimate the friendship between China and Pakistan?
> 
> China even sold the DF-3 ballistic missiles to Saudi Arabia in 1980s. Today, the technology of DF-31A is very cheap for China, and our primary deterrence will drift to DF-41 and JL-2A. And DF-5 will soon be retired, even giving it as a gift to Pakistan isn't out of question.



I don't think Pakistan has that much time in hand. Uncle sam has started arming the Beluch Liberation Army and any day you might see american troops roaming the streets of Pakistan. So, if China thinks of giving any gift it better be very soon.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Russia, of course, will not sell any relevant technology to Pakistan. but how you can underestimate the friendship between China and Pakistan?
> 
> China even sold the DF-3 ballistic missiles to Saudi Arabia in 1980s. Today, the technology of DF-31A is very cheap for China, and our primary deterrence will drift to DF-41 and JL-2A. And DF-5 will soon be retired, even giving it as a gift to Pakistan isn't out of question.


 
You are right my friend... I asked for a Russian as being sarcastic... The Russians fear the Pak Nukes as much as any other hostile state towards Pakistan... including the US... 

besides money talks and the bs walks... we will ultimately need the ICBMs... and time is running out


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## The Deterrent

secularbuster said:


> Only america and her allies have the right to have ICBMs, this is what I meant. Your understanding of English is alos very poor.


 
No,What about Russia and China?.....should'nt they have ICBMs too?


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## khurasaan1

AhaseebA said:


> Clown? I am afraid that would be you...
> 
> First,no country (Russia or China) would sell us that (11,000km range missile)....as it contains a handsome amount of technology which is sacred to them...
> Second,we have a treaty that prevents announced trading of 300+km range ballistic missile...
> Third,if we somehow conclude the deal,we can never procure them secretly...
> 
> And if we get caught,you know what the world is gonna think and say.....
> 
> Third,


OH my god u think its a candy that we will be punished...just buy a dozen of them and then watch ..how the world/enemies will be under ure control....nobody dare gonna mess with u, guaranteed , cuz everybody will be worried for their lives ...


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## khurasaan1

AhaseebA said:


> Look,you guys have little technical knowledge of the ICBM...
> 
> By definition,ICBM is a missile with 5500 km+ range...US is 11,000 km away...until now,we have made Shaheen-II with 2750km max range with a suitable warhead...
> 
> In my opinion,we should have strong diplomacy so that US is forced to stop itself.....it requires guts to fire even an SRBM (not required against India)...if the GoP does not have them to shoot down a drone,ICBM chalana to door ki Baat hai...
> 
> Gar hamari economy strong hogi,to dunya hamare saath hogi...as in case of India...


Great ! Excellent ! why dont u give this lecture to US , Britain and france, why they keeping ICBMS then...are they dumb @$$ foolz... or they are class prep kidz...
Plz dont give us lecture for not having ICBMz.....instead US and Israel needz these kinda lectures...if US listens to it and demolish their ICBMz then we will be very happi to listen and follow u....

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## emoriphious

Pakistani ICBM is ready and would soon be test fired.This intercontinental missile has a range of 7000 kilometres and is capable of hitting its target falling within its range. The missile can contain nuclear as well as traditional warheads. The missile has been termed a significant milestone for the defence of the country and is believed to strengthen the defence. According to sources, this missile is ready and would soon be test fired.

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## emoriphious

Good work Pakistan


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## DV RULES

Link of your source? 
When they are going to test it?
With 7000 KM they can put under target only NATO but not US. They should increase range up to 11000 Km & they have to do something against US/NATO bases in Afghanistan (The real threat for Pakistan).


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## AUz

*Source??* The pic is of Shaheen-II that only cover Bharti territory . . . . . . . . 

What is the purpose of wasting your and our time? Next time DON'T OPEN A USELESS THREAD IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CREDIBLE SOURCE !


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## ANG

Hi, this topic has been discussed in great detail in this thread.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/86486-icbm-pakistan-intercontinental-missile-underway.html

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## QADRI

well Pakistan may not test this missile in the current situation, when there is a pressure from the whole world on other issues. But definately this test will help to shut the mouths of many hostile nations.


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## SMC

Really hope this is true, but we need missiles that can reach US. 7,000 won't cut it.

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## ChineseTiger1986

The 7000 km ICBM is better than nothing, at least you can put the West Europe into the range of your missile.

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## farhan_9909

this news is very old

bt i am sure we are developing a ICBM. bt secret because it will create further problems for Pakistan


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Wonderful news Proud achievement by our Scientist

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## khurasaan1

AUz said:


> *Source??* The pic is of Shaheen-II that only cover Bharti territory . . . . . . . .


 
Nope the pic is of Ghauri II not Shaheen ..bro!...I guess he is just saying whatever he dont even know....

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## khurasaan1

farhan_9909 said:


> this news is very old
> 
> bt i am sure we are developing a ICBM. bt secret because it will create further problems for Pakistan


 
bro! we r already into so many problems that ...the more dont even matter us anymore...


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## khurasaan1

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Wonderful news Proud achievement by our Scientist


Nope! ..not Yet ....we still waitin for it .....hope we achieve it ..Insha-Allah...


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## khurasaan1

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The 7000 km ICBM is better than nothing, at least you can put the West Europe into the range of your missile.


 Yes! u r right at least we can take out NATO first ....and if we can use it from Turkey or North Korea then...yes we can reach US...or there is another way we can equip it on any sea platform take it into open sea , US within its range and can use it then....Insha-Allah...


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## secularbuster

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The 7000 km ICBM is better than nothing, at least you can put the West Europe into the range of your missile.


 
Why doesn't Pakistan just acquire some DF-31A from China for the time being? Is China reluctant to sell or lease them to Pakistan?


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## secularbuster

AhaseebA said:


> No,What about Russia and China?.....should'nt they have ICBMs too?



If america and her allies can have ICBMs, why can't Pakistan? That is my point!


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## secularbuster

khurasaan1 said:


> Great ! Excellent ! why dont u give this lecture to US , Britain and france, why they keeping ICBMS then...are they dumb @$$ foolz... or they are class prep kidz...
> Plz dont give us lecture for not having ICBMz.....instead US and Israel needz these kinda lectures...if US listens to it and demolish their ICBMz then we will be very happi to listen and follow u....


 
Very good point but Ahaseeba will definitely come up with more of his feminine logic. This guy sounds like women. Women tend to think less of sovereignty and selfrespect, they tend to go for peace at any cost and that's why western countries want to see women in power in Muslim states.

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## Dr. Strangelove

we need icbms to prevent war if we developed a messile of 11000km range then no body will attack us

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

wasm95 said:


> we need icbms to prevent war if we developed a messile of 11000km range then no body will attack us


 
also importantly traitors like Musharaf wont have the excuse for their treason i.e America threatened to bomb us to stone age woof woof...


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## IND151

wasm95 said:


> we need icbms to prevent war if we developed a messile of 11000km range then no body will attack us


 
11000 km ICBM is very critical to develop. how Pakistan is going to develop it? even if you develop it you can not produce even 10 ICBM of such range due to 2 reasons >
1. it requires very high technology and superb industrial base. you lack both.
2. very high cost of producing and maintaining ICBM.

USA will place sanctions on you. India will have excuse to develop ICBM.


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## secularbuster

IND151 said:


> 11000 km ICBM is very critical to develop. how Pakistan is going to develop it? even if you develop it you can not produce even 10 ICBM of such range due to 2 reasons >
> 1. it requires very high technology and superb industrial base. you lack both.
> 2. very high cost of producing and maintaining ICBM.
> 
> USA will place sanctions on you. India will have excuse to develop ICBM.



There's no shortage of excuses for india, what india lacks is the technology to develop ICBMs.


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## IND151

secularbuster said:


> There's no shortage of excuses for india, what india lacks is the technology to develop ICBMs.


 
try to understand. we dont need 11000 km ICBM. even Agni 5 is enough for us. we have already tested 3000 km Agni 3. so do you think it is difficult for us to develop Agni 5. 

then we can increase its range by 600 km and it will be a ICBM. but probably we will not do so. our main concern is china and to warn overlords of china in Beijing Agni 5 is enough


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## vikrams

Having An ICBM is like having a PSLV rocket ready to launch from anytime,anywhere, 24/7 ,365 days.That is how hard is to have ICBM.I bet pakistan cant develop it for another two decades or more.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

haha... Mr Vikrams... some used to say similar things about our nukes... 

watch this space!!!

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## vikrams

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> haha... Mr Vikrams... some used to say similar things about our nukes...
> 
> watch this space!!!


 
you got your nukes from china,so thats how you are going to get icbm, the chinaway.
or
The United States government states that the Ghauri design is based on North Korea's Rodong-1 (also known as Nodong-1) missile.

https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/archived-reports-1/jan_jun1999.html#pakistan


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## Dr. Strangelove

oo who tell u this mr vikramslol:


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

vikrams said:


> you got your nukes from china,so thats how you are going to get icbm, the chinaway.
> or
> The United States government states that the Ghauri design is based on North Korea's Rodong-1 (also known as Nodong-1) missile.


 
exactly... the point being... everything is possible and nothing is real!!! hahaha

We need ICBMs... We shall inshaAllah have then in a couple of years... After that we maintain peace using the ICBM NUKE deterrence...

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## vikrams

wasm95 said:


> oo who tell u this mr vikramslol:


 

THAT WOULD BE THE CIA


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## Dr. Strangelove

vikrams said:


> you got your nukes from china,so thats how you are going to get icbm, the chinaway.
> or
> The United States government states that the Ghauri design is based on North Korea's Rodong-1 (also known as Nodong-1) missile.
> 
> https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/archived-reports-1/jan_jun1999.html#pakistan


 
if we get our nukes from china and messiles from n.korea then u get your nukes fron israel and russia lol


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## vikrams

wasm95 said:


> if we get our nukes from china and messiles from n.korea then u get your nukes fron israel and russia lol


 
where is your proof.
nobody can say agni is based on russian missiles.israel does not have nukes.


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## Dr. Strangelove

vikrams said:


> where is your proof.
> nobody can say agni is based on russian missiles.israel does not have nukes.


 
the whole world know israel have nukes how u can say this


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## vikrams

wasm95 said:


> the whole world know israel have nukes how u can say this


 
world doesnt know pak has nukes until they test it in 1998.when did israel test its nukes.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> exactly... the point being... everything is possible and nothing is real!!! hahaha
> 
> We need ICBMs... We shall inshaAllah have then in a couple of years... After that we maintain peace using the ICBM NUKE deterrence...


 
i think we al ready have icbms but we do not test them due to international preessure our militry programs r very secret who knows

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## Dr. Strangelove

vikrams said:


> world doesnt know pak has nukes until they test it in 1998.when did israel test its nukes.


 
we have nukes in 1986 but we not test them we r a nuclear power in 1986 israel can test its nukes in near future


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## ChineseTiger1986

secularbuster said:


> Why doesn't Pakistan just acquire some DF-31A from China for the time being? Is China reluctant to sell or lease them to Pakistan?


 
Hu Jintao maybe is reluctant, but the next leader Xi Jinping is more pro-military strategy between China and Pakistan, not just for economic alliance.

And China can't openly sell the ICBM to Pakistan, this transition of technology must be done underground.

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## ChineseTiger1986

khurasaan1 said:


> Yes! u r right at least we can take out NATO first ....and if we can use it from Turkey or North Korea then...yes we can reach US...or there is another way we can equip it on any sea platform take it into open sea , US within its range and can use it then....Insha-Allah...


 
My suggestion is that it is time for Pakistan to develop its own SLBM, and don't wait to convert the landbased ICBM into the seabased SLBM, just look at the mess caused by Topol M/Bulava.

And JL-2 wasn't based on the technology of DF-31, it was developed from a different institution. China first developed the medium range SLBM JL-1 many decades ago, then it has been upgraded into the intercontinental range JL-2.

It is time for Pakistan to develop the short-medium range SLBM, then the long range SLBM.

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## Khan_patriot

It doesn't even matter incase we have to wage war on the US its gonna be WW3 baby and I judge that atleast all the Muslim ummah, N korea and probably Russia and China are gonna be up against the US, NATO and the rest of them so we can pretty much bang the US from N-korea, western Africa,
Turkey and a hell lot of strategic locations but the bottom line is this is never gonna happen because we have our thinking done by cowards and our fighting done by Idiots.......
PS by idiots i dont mean the army i mean the proxy forces we have made in many places on many occasions instead of our real army........


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## Mr.Ryu

No i dont believe 7000KM missile to hit sky soon, Even wonder if such program exist which is in finishing stage, But i need to ask why the missile picture shown is always same i have seen the picture at least in 2 other different occasion doubt if this is the only missile in the arsenal.


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## Khan_patriot

Mr.Ryu said:


> No i dont believe 7000KM missile to hit sky soon, Even wonder if such program exist which is in finishing stage, But i need to ask why the missile picture shown is always same i have seen the picture at least in 2 other different occasion doubt if this is the only missile in the arsenal.



All missiles look alike to you because you dont even know the first thing about missile tech.......


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## desiman

Please provide a source or else this is a wet dream, its not a child's play to make an ICBM, only countries with advanced Space programs till now have the capability to make such missiles.


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## AUz

desiman said:


> Please provide a source or else this is a wet dream,*its not a child's play to make an ICBM, only countries with advanced Space programs till now have the capability to make such missiles.*




For instance...North Korea


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## desiman

AUz said:


> [/B]
> 
> For instance...North Korea


 
North Korea also has the best army in the world as per the official website, would you like to believe that as well ?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

From Kashmir to US , its 7500 km distance from US to Pakistan 

The Timur is a 7000 km intercontinental Missile 

I think we need to be be real - 

Going form 7000-7500 lol is not going to take a lot more effort 

Again , we are really interested in protecting our National Interest

Any more misadventures , would probbly mean 

And we will fire it over Antarctica mess up the Penguines too

If it get intercepted then fall out will go over india so can't blame us on that


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## Zarvan

Mr.Ryu said:


> No i dont believe 7000KM missile to hit sky soon, Even wonder if such program exist which is in finishing stage, But i need to ask why the missile picture shown is always same i have seen the picture at least in 2 other different occasion doubt if this is the only missile in the arsenal.


 
you guys said the same thing about our Cruise Missile and we tested it within a week


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## luckyyy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> From Kashmir to US , its 7500 km distance from US to Pakistan
> 
> The Timur is a 7000 km intercontinental Missile
> 
> I think we need to be be real -
> 
> Going form 7000-7500 lol is not going to take a lot more effort
> 
> Again , we are really interested in protecting our National Interest
> 
> Any more misadventures , would probbly mean
> 
> *And we will fire it over Antarctica mess up the Penguines too*
> 
> If it get intercepted then fall out will go over india so can't blame us on that





khurasaan1 said:


> Yes! u r right *at least we can take out NATO first [....and if we can use it from Turkey or North Korea then...yes we can reach US*...or there is another way we can equip it on any sea platform take it into open sea , US within its range and can use it then....Insha-Allah...


 
US is well equiped to shoot it down in air , but then , how your country going to take up when US retaliate ?...think about it !!


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## secularbuster

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> From Kashmir to US , its 7500 km distance from US to Pakistan
> 
> The Timur is a 7000 km intercontinental Missile
> 
> I think we need to be be real -
> 
> Going form 7000-7500 lol is not going to take a lot more effort
> 
> Again , we are really interested in protecting our National Interest
> 
> Any more misadventures , would probbly mean
> 
> And we will fire it over Antarctica mess up the Penguines too
> 
> If it get intercepted then fall out will go over india so can't blame us on that



The distance from Kasmir to the US is not 7500 km, it is 15000km.


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## luckyyy

SMC said:


> Really hope this is true, but *we need missiles that can reach US. * 7,000 won't cut it.


 ............................


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## indian dream

Is ICBMs necessary for pakistan... A single ICBM(US-minute man III) costs $7,000,000..


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## secularbuster

indian dream said:


> Is ICBMs necessary for pakistan... A single ICBM(US-minute man III) costs $7,000,000..



Many would argue that ICBMs are necessary only for the US and her allies. Countries whom uncle sam regards as adversaries or 'bastion of Islamic terrorists' do not need ICBMs.


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## khurasaan1

secularbuster said:


> The distance from Kasmir to the US is not 7500 km, it is 15000km.


nope ..it is around 12000kmz


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## khurasaan1

desiman said:


> Please provide a source or else this is a wet dream, its not a child's play to make an ICBM, only countries with advanced Space programs till now have the capability to make such missiles.


 
Hey! when it comes to Pakistan ..then everything is a childz play ..man.......


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## President Camacho

secularbuster said:


> The distance from Kasmir to the US is not 7500 km, it is 15000km.


 
He meant some islands around Alaska, that's less than 7K km. 

P.S. No two points on this planet are 15000 KM apart.

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## The Deterrent

I don't know why you guys are going so hysteric and high-hoped on this issue...

Look,it is not there...we can't buy it...we can't make it in the required time (1-2) yrs...

You people are critisizing me because I'm telling the truth...


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## The Deterrent

khurasaan1 said:


> Hey! when it comes to Pakistan ..then everything is a childz play ..man.......


 
Don't be such a child...we have faced failures too,that never came up...you know what this means?

That we are doing somethings on our own...true that we are at this stage with the assistance of China...

The Pakistani ICBM is a hoax...I have been searching for it for 2 yrs,and from each source,I got the same answer..."no"...

You guys need to move on...there are better things that we are doing right now...IMO,a 1000km range SLBM would be a better option...but nothing is being done on it,thats a fact...

You guys need to understand that there are other ways of kicking US out of the region.....

Watch TV,every single serious analyst/politician that comes up says that fighting US is not an option,even Imran Khan said it...we just need better diplomacy...
Venezuala,Iran don't have ICBMs...how come they are holding their grounds?...just because they have a strong and patriotic leadership...

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## IndianTiger

i dnt think pakistan have capability to develop ICBM on its own...


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## IndianTiger

zaid hamid isnt that same fool that stated that kasab is indian,


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## Mr.Ryu

Khan_patriot said:


> All missiles look alike to you because you dont even know the first thing about missile tech.......


 
First most of the missiles dont look alike may be the camo not the dimension [CF], Nose , height, That's what at least in most of the country may be its similar there because they are simply the same missile different name different range. Of-Cource i am not in DRDO just ordinary person but i can learn a lot from your great experience in missile tech please tell me more.


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## Mr.Ryu

Zarvan said:


> *you guys* said the same thing about our Cruise Missile and we tested it within a week



Do you mean we in PDF or our government if our government who told source ? or if you mentioned us literally in PDF yes may be its true or may be its not true we can not argue now but how come a person joined in 04-28-2011 know what happened in late 2005 or 06 i guess when missile was developed if am not wrong. 

And to mention your best Babur is sub sonic and has range less than 700 you cant compare it with a ICBM with range of 7000.


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## Juice

Perhaps 24 hour electric service should be a priority..then worry about ICBM's!


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

AhaseebA said:


> Don't be such a child...we have faced failures too,that never came up...you know what this means?
> 
> That we are doing somethings on our own...true that we are at this stage with the assistance of China...
> 
> The Pakistani ICBM is a hoax...I have been searching for it for 2 yrs,and from each source,I got the same answer..."no"...
> 
> You guys need to move on...there are better things that we are doing right now...IMO,a 1000km range SLBM would be a better option...but nothing is being done on it,thats a fact...
> 
> You guys need to understand that there are other ways of kicking US out of the region.....
> 
> Watch TV,every single serious analyst/politician that comes up says that fighting US is not an option,even Imran Khan said it...we just need better diplomacy...
> Venezuala,Iran don't have ICBMs...how come they are holding their grounds?...just because they have a strong and patriotic leadership...


 
You are very naive and do not understand how ideological states act towards each other... 

anyway... you are entitled to your opinion... however Pakistan will disclose it has an ICBM soon God willing...

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## khurasaan1

AhaseebA said:


> The Pakistani ICBM is a hoax...I have been searching for it for 2 yrs,and from each source,I got the same answer..."no"...
> 
> You guys need to move on...there are better things that we are doing right now...IMO,a 1000km range SLBM would be a better option...but nothing is being done on it,thats a fact...You guys need to understand that there are other ways of kicking US out of the region.....
> 
> Venezuala,Iran don't have ICBMs...how come they are holding their grounds?...just because they have a strong and patriotic leadership...


 
I guess this is 21st century not 19th century that we shold go for 1000km range SLBMz.....this is global age....everything should have global effect and reach ...thats why we need ICBMz...LOL....
Anywayz we already learnt our lessons from Saddam, Libya , Egyt and Tunisia...so we know what is right and wrong for us....ure lectures are better if u give to US and its counterparts...thanks....
Yes! Saddam was very patriotic and also held his ground and the world has seen what happened to him and same is going on with Libya Ghaddafi now too....he is very patriotic too....


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## Zarvan

if ICBM is ready than Pakistan should test it as soon as possible and if the work is still going on than Pakistan should increase its speed


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## secularbuster

AhaseebA said:


> I don't know why you guys are going so hysteric and high-hoped on this issue...
> 
> Look,it is not there...we can't buy it...we can't make it in the required time (1-2) yrs...
> 
> You people are critisizing me because I'm telling the truth...


 
If u r so sure why do u bother at all? Just shut up and sing your sweet songs to your uncle sam. It's quite clear why you are so desperate.


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## secularbuster

Juice said:


> Perhaps 24 hour electric service should be a priority..then worry about ICBM's!


*
Yeah, I say the same to you, set your own priorities (such as having human rights in your CIA run gulags) first before lecturing others!* There are millions of homeless people in your country and your government spends trillions on military. Can't you just give up this ugly habit of telling others what is good for them and what is not just to secure your unethical interests?


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## IndianTiger

zaid hamid isnt that same fool that stated that kasab is indian,


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## Juice

secularbuster said:


> *
> Yeah, I say the same to you, set your own priorities (such as having human rights in your CIA run gulags) first before lecturing others!* There are millions of homeless people in your country and your government spends trillions on military. Can't you just give up this ugly habit of telling others what is good for them and what is not just to secure your unethical interests?


 
I am sorry. Live in a mud hut and hug your ICBM. Is Bangladesh working on an ICBM?


----------



## khurasaan1

Juice said:


> I am sorry. Live in a mud hut and hug your ICBM. Is Bangladesh working on an ICBM?


 
U wanna give us an example of third world country...I guess that is ure role model then....
Why u dont give us an example of a first world developed country like US.....so we follow iit and get developed too....
U wish us to live in mud and underdeveloped ...LOL.....
sure if we follow Bangladesh we gonna be underdeveloped and will stay like that for the rest of our lives.......


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## secularbuster

Juice said:


> I am sorry. Live in a mud hut and hug your ICBM. Is Bangladesh working on an ICBM?



Is it about Bangladesh? There's a site where you can discuss the defence of Bangladesh but you've chosen to bring Bangladesh here for you have nothing else to say. It is the national hobby of all americans to poke their dirty nose everywhere.* Perhaps China should start telling the americans what kind of government they should have, after all, these arrogant americans are living on money borrowed from China.*

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

You are not telling us the truth Mr Haseeb... You are telling us that we dont need ICBMs... That is enough to put your motivation into suspicion...


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## Dr. Strangelove

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> You are not telling us the truth Mr Haseeb... You are telling us that we dont need ICBMs... That is enough to put your motivation into suspicion...


 
NONE OF US CAN TELL WHEATHER WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO PRODUCE ICBMS OR NOT


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## Dr. Strangelove

WAIT TILL WE TEST AN ICBM


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## Juice

wasm95 said:


> WAIT TILL WE TEST AN ICBM


 
Not a single ICBM has been tested "beginning too end "


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## Juice

secularbuster said:


> Is it about Bangladesh? There's a site where you can discuss the defence of Bangladesh but you've chosen to bring Bangladesh here for you have nothing else to say. It is the national hobby of all americans to poke their dirty nose everywhere.* Perhaps China should start telling the americans what kind of government they should have, after all, these arrogant americans are living on money borrowed from China.*


 
The gentleman I quoted has his flag as Bangladesh(PS have your Chinese buddies tell us to dismantle our ICBM's. I'm sure we will reply "Oh yas sah massah...)


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## Zarvan

AhaseebA said:


> I don't know why you guys are going so hysteric and high-hoped on this issue...
> 
> Look,it is not there...we can't buy it...we can't make it in the required time (1-2) yrs...
> 
> You people are critisizing me because I'm telling the truth...


 
Sir Pakistan in this case I mean Nuclear Missile case has proved lot of countries wrong


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Juice said:


> Not a single ICBM has been tested "beginning too end "


 
Whats that supposed to mean... neither had a single man gone to the moon before 1960s

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## Zarvan

secularbuster said:


> Is it about Bangladesh? There's a site where you can discuss the defence of Bangladesh but you've chosen to bring Bangladesh here for you have nothing else to say. It is the national hobby of all americans to poke their dirty nose everywhere.* Perhaps China should start telling the americans what kind of government they should have, after all, these arrogant americans are living on money borrowed from China.*


 Brother but you need to develop your Armed Forces or India will keep bullying you


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## Juice

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Whats that supposed to mean... neither had a single man gone to the moon before 1960s


 
What do you think it means, genius? They are so dangerous noone has fires a fully armed one towards a target... smaller test yes. A full end to end test might end up in war.


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## Dr. Strangelove

WE WILL TEST OUR SECRET ICBMS AT THE CORRECT TIME

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## secularbuster

Juice said:


> The gentleman I quoted has his flag as Bangladesh(PS have your Chinese buddies tell us to dismantle our ICBM's. I'm sure we will reply "Oh yas sah massah...)



And the man I quoted has his american flag, so now I'm going to tell him to worry about the trillion dollar debt instead of worrying about who has ICBMs and who doesn't! Why don't you inform us how your government plans to pay that debt?* Though the topic is not about the f****** american debt but we're going to discuss it here anyway, because that is your f******* style!
*


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## Last Hope

Well well well.... Pakistan has Ghauri III ready as inside sources suggest but it isint test fired due to the international pressure and political crisis.
So even if Tipu/Taimur is made, it wont be test fired until Ghauri III. 


Regards.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Last Hope said:


> Well well well.... Pakistan has Ghauri III ready as inside sources suggest but it isint test fired due to the international pressure and political crisis.
> So even if Tipu/Taimur is made, it wont be test fired until Ghauri III.
> 
> 
> Regards.


 WAIT WAIT AND WAIT


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## khanz

pakistan will launch ICBM soon just a matter of time


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## Dr. Strangelove

khanz said:


> pakistan will launch ICBM soon just a matter of time


 
BUT WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR THAT TIME


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## crankthatskunk

Juice said:


> The gentleman I quoted has his flag as Bangladesh(PS have your Chinese buddies tell us to dismantle our ICBM's. I'm sure we will reply "Oh yas sah massah...)




Juice, 

I agree with you we all should have a taste of reality. So what about you trying it for once! Let me give you a poser. 

Abolish US dollar as world reserve currency, and you will soon be amongst the not so advanced nations, not able to pay for your fuel import bills. Result in reduction in transport and movement of goods and people, Employment, GDP, standard of living etc. Your streets would be full of mugs and murderers, burned by the agitators. Riots police out in force, the lot.

This my friend is the reality of the situation. For last few decades you have survived because of your currency is the reserve currency of the world and you can print it as much as you like and pay for imports, interest on your foreign debts, spend on your army in far flung countries where you are conducting illegal wars. I challenge you to prove how USA can launch these expensive wars if they end up paying with another currency for which they have to work to earn rather than just going in to printing over drive. 

The latest victims of US vengeance are Strauss-Kahn working for Euro and Gaddafi to spread the idea for a Gold base Dinar. USA is hell bound to stop anyone even contemplating or spreading the idea of an alternative mode of payment in international transactions. Saddam was another victim, now Iran is floating the idea for a while, when it makes any attempt, it would be attacked. Our Bhutto was made an example for working for Muslim Unity in 70S. 

I can understand USA zeal it would be bankrupt and go in to default over night as soon as Dollar is removed from its position of world reserve currency. 
Two things are keeping you afloat, Dollars and your military exports. 

You disagree with my analysis!


----------



## Mabs

@ Juice

My man, Pakistan's current energy needs are at 14,000-15,000 MW. Right now, utilizing the resources that we have, without factoring in the upcoming projects, Pakistan has the capability of generating 20,000 MW. I am not saying this, it is the view of the many officials in the energy sector. As aptly put by someone, Pakistan is not a poor economy, but a sadly mis-managed economy. If we streamline our processes, we can easily produce surplus cheap electricity for the next couple of years without adding any new projects. All we need is someone who is willing to do the right thing.


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## The Deterrent

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> You are not telling us the truth Mr Haseeb... You are telling us that we dont need ICBMs... That is enough to put your motivation into suspicion...


 
With truth I meant that they do not exist for now...you can ditch the we-don't-need-ICBMs thing if you like to do so...


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## The Deterrent

secularbuster said:


> If u r so sure why do u bother at all? Just shut up and sing your sweet songs to your uncle sam. It's quite clear why you are so desperate.


 
I guess someone is angry with me...I'll keep singing bro,you can shut your ears...


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## The Deterrent

Last Hope said:


> Well well well.... Pakistan has Ghauri III ready as inside sources suggest but it isint test fired due to the international pressure and political crisis.
> So even if Tipu/Taimur is made, it wont be test fired until Ghauri III.
> 
> 
> Regards.


Well,I have to disagree with you.....there was a plan for Ghauri-III,but it was later discarded due to the induction of solid-fueled Shaheen series...

I suggest that happened because:

1. Liquid-fueled missile requires fueling prior to launch because Hydrazine is pretty reactive and the missile's fuel tanks cannot hold it for long...on the other hand solid fueled systems can store their fuel safely within them for extended periods...

2. Liquid fueled missiles are rather slow than solid fueled ones,thus making them easy to intercept...

3. The thrust of a liquid fueled motor is lesser than that of a soli fueled one( keeping other parameters same)...

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## secularbuster

AhaseebA said:


> I guess someone is angry with me...I'll keep singing bro,you can shut your ears...


*
Of course, you have to sing your uncle sams's tune or else you won't get paid.*

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## The Deterrent

secularbuster said:


> *
> Of course, you have to sing your uncle sams's tune or else you won't get paid.*


 
What is with you? are you short of money or something?

Its easy to write words and express your feelings...come up with some facts and figures,then we'll have some nice debate...


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## secularbuster

AhaseebA said:


> What is with you? are you short of money or something?
> 
> Its easy to write words and express your feelings...come up with some facts and figures,then we'll have some nice debate...



'Pakistan can never build ICBMs in this decade' this is your fact. You are being paid to say what you say, so keep your screwed facts to yourself.

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## The Deterrent

secularbuster said:


> 'Pakistan can never build ICBMs in this decade' this is your fact. You are being paid to say what you say, so keep your screwed facts to yourself.


 
OMG!!!...I got a job!!!

Pakistan cannot build a 11,000km range missile in this decade...

an ICBM is a missile with range of 5500km+....so if youre saying that we can make a 5500km range system in this decade,I totally agree with you...


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## secularbuster

AhaseebA said:


> OMG!!!...I got a job!!!
> 
> Pakistan cannot build a 11,000km range missile in this decade...
> 
> an ICBM is a missile with range of 5500km+....so if youre saying that we can make a 5500km range system in this decade,I totally agree with you...



Pakistan can build ICBMs with a range of 11000km within 2-3 years!

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## The Deterrent

secularbuster said:


> Pakistan can build ICBMs with a range of 11000km within 2-3 years!


 
Alright...now here are two things:

1. If its "Pakistan can".....then how? keeping in view the development history (e.g. Babur took 4 yrs to go in production)
2. If its "Pakistan will".....then I am ready to bet on it...


----------



## secularbuster

AhaseebA said:


> Alright...now here are two things:
> 
> 1. If its "Pakistan can".....then how? keeping in view the development history (e.g. Babur took 4 yrs to go in production)
> 2. If its "Pakistan will".....then I am ready to bet on it...



Increasing the range of a cruise missile is much more complicated because of its compact size. On the other hand, an ICBM can be of more than two stages thus allowing it to carry huge amount of fuel. It's the re-entry and acquiring target that require advanced technology and Pakistan has already mastered the technology of acquiring target, now Pakistan needs to master the art of re-entry and with the help of her friends Pakistan can do it within 2-3 years.

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## The Deterrent

secularbuster said:


> Increasing the range of a cruise missile is much more complicated because of its compact size. On the other hand, an ICBM can be of more than two stages thus allowing it to carry huge amount of fuel. It's the re-entry and acquiring target that require advanced technology and Pakistan has already mastered the technology of acquiring target, now Pakistan needs to master the art of re-entry and with the help of her friends Pakistan can do it within 2-3 years.


 
Good,now we're upto something...

Babur was an example,anyway we didn't increase its range,we made a new one...
and FYI,it wasn't about the range...Babur had delays because we couldn't get any help on it,not even from the Chinese...

As for the ICBM,its not that simple.....a good ICBM should also have counter-measure suites (for evading the best ABMs),MIRVs,communication at hypersonic speeds,adequate launch platforms,a reliable guidance system (so far,Chinese satellites are helping us on this) and much more that we both don't know about...

An ICBM of 11,000km should be a masterpiece,as US will know about it much beforehand.....it should not be something as V-2 (just for an example)..

Also,it should be kept in mind that US is testing Airborne laser missile defence(600km range,can take out a missile in boost phase),which would be soon operational.....it could be fielded in Afghanistan...

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## secularbuster

AhaseebA said:


> .
> 
> Also,it should be kept in mind that US is testing Airborne laser missile defence(600km range,can take out a missile in boost phase),which would be soon operational.....it could be fielded in Afghanistan...



Well, Pakistan has to keep track of those 'air-borne lasers' in Afghanistan.

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## The Deterrent

secularbuster said:


> Well, Pakistan has to keep track of those 'air-borne lasers' in Afghanistan.


 
Again...how?


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## Dr. Strangelove

stop discussing about an icbm of range 11000kms this thread is about taimur/tipu icbm and i hope its range is 7000km if the program exists

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## The Deterrent

wasm95 said:


> stop discussing about an icbm of range 11000kms this thread is about taimur/tipu icbm and i hope its range is 7000km if the program exists


 
I agree...


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## khurasaan1

AhaseebA said:


> Alright...now here are two things:
> 
> 1. If its "Pakistan can".....then how? keeping in view the development history (e.g. Babur took 4 yrs to go in production)


 
For this u have to be recruited in the KRL and work there ...they wont expose their tech secrets to u here ...LOL......


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## The Deterrent

khurasaan1 said:


> For this u have to be recruited in the KRL and work there ...they wont expose their tech secrets to u here ...LOL......


 
Here I want to clear another confusion.....KRL no longer forms an important part in the manufacturing of Pakistani missiles...

NESCOM has the best expertise in make these systems...KRL only made Ghauris,and even their warheads are being made by a branch of NESCOM...

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## khurasaan1

AhaseebA said:


> Here I want to clear another confusion.....KRL no longer forms an important part in the manufacturing of Pakistani missiles...
> 
> NESCOM has the best expertise in make these systems...KRL only made Ghauris,and even their warheads are being made by a branch of NESCOM...


 
Okay so get Job in NESCOM then...they will show u how to make ICBMz then....u wnna know.....


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## Dr. Strangelove

khurasaan1 said:


> Okay so get Job in NESCOM then...they will show u how to make ICBMz then....u wnna know.....


 
mr khurassan1 we cant make icbms of range more than 11000kms 
in my opinion we r working on icbms of range 6000kms to 7000kms


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## The Deterrent

khurasaan1 said:


> Okay so get Job in NESCOM then...they will show u how to make ICBMz then....u wnna know.....


 
They can't...because jo cheez hai hi nahi,us k bare main kia batana?


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## khurasaan1

wasm95 said:


> mr khurassan1 we cant make icbms of range more than 11000kms
> in my opinion we r working on icbms of range 6000kms to 7000kms


 
Yes! I guess u r right cuz they cant make or making ICBMz of range 11000kmz...yes they are working on 6-7000kmz ..thats not even joke...cuz it needz independant sattlelite systems for guidance as well...


----------



## khurasaan1

AhaseebA said:


> They can't...because jo cheez hai hi nahi,us k bare main kia batana?


 
Challoo Aap Khush ho jao keh ICBM hai hi nahi...abb kya karrain ...US toa Pakistan per aa kar kabza karr ley gaa....


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## Najam Khan

khurasaan1 said:


> Challoo Aap Khush ho jao keh ICBM hai hi nahi...abb kya karrain ...US toa Pakistan per aa kar kabza karr ley gaa....


 
ICBM k bhugair be kr ley ga...LoL;-)
some people wonder if US comes to Pak, they will at least have good administration as compare to our present govt, they don't know how difficult is it to get rid of the 'Amreecan sundi'...

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## araz

I dont see any reason to keep this discussion open if members are openly insulting each other rather than indulging in fruitful debate.If you have a point of view support it otherwise ______!! Please guys lets get back to topic at hand
Araz

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## The Deterrent

NAjAM Khan said:


> ICBM k bhugair be kr ley ga...LoL;-)
> some people wonder if US comes to Pak, they will at least have good administration as compare to our present govt, they don't know how difficult is it to get rid of the 'Amreecan sundi'...


 
Yes,US can do it whether Pakistan has ICBMs or not...


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## The Deterrent

khurasaan1 said:


> Yes! I guess u r right cuz they cant make or making ICBMz of range 11000kmz...yes they are working on 6-7000kmz ..thats not even joke...cuz it needz independant sattlelite systems for guidance as well...


 
Don't be so sure.....do you know the name of the next Pakistani IRBM?

All I'm saying is that this all frenzy is based on just a silly statement by a military person....The Army is so tight-lipped on these development that they don't even report failures...how can they disclose whats coming up?...

Remember,this is not India...where every development is announced...

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## The Deterrent

araz said:


> I dont see any reason to keep this discussion open if members are openly insulting each other rather than indulging in fruitful debate.If you have a point of view support it otherwise ______!! Please guys lets get back to topic at hand
> Araz


 
I'm trying to have a nice discussion based on technical knowledge but everybody seems to be having a super-duper patriotic fever...

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## Dr. Strangelove

i hope tipu/taimur icbm is not a remour and we will see it in next 2 or 5 years but first we have to test our shaheen 3 and ghori 3


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## The Deterrent

wasm95 said:


> i hope tipu/taimur icbm is not a remour and we will see it in next 2 or 5 years but first we have to test our shaheen 3 and ghori 3


 
Here I want to clear another confusion...

I already mentioned why Ghauri-III is not a viable option for Pakistan...I have confirmed its non-existence from the sources too...

As for Shaheen-III...it is not what you guys think it is...true that there is a missile under-development which has the characteristics of proposed Shaheen-III,but it has a new name...
Shaheen-III is a technology demonstrator...

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## aatayyab

T-Rex said:


> No one is suggesting to the Palestinians that they battle the Israeli tanks with stones. However, suggesting that they migrate to other Muslim states and spend their lives as refugees doesnt sound like realistic bell but sounds more like an israeli tune to me. BTW would you please mention which Muslim state has that utopian atmosphere where the Palestinians can concentrate on building missiles for countering the Israeli missiles? Are you from Mars? Whats on your mind, wiseguy?



When you got nothing wise or sane to say on this forum, why on earth do you even post stuff? Palestine is NOT a nation, they are Muslims and in Islam, there is no concept of 56 Nations. Islam is one nation and Muslims are all brothers and sisters, not Palestinians or Jordanians, etc. When they will migrate to the neighboring countries, they'd definitely start doing whatever is necessary to combat the IDF. In the next post, unless you have anything of importance or any real use, you'd do yourself a favor by refraining to post.


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## T-Rex

aatayyab said:


> When you got nothing wise or sane to say on this forum, why on earth do you even post stuff? Palestine is NOT a nation, they are Muslims and in Islam, there is no concept of 56 Nations. Islam is one nation and Muslims are all brothers and sisters, not Palestinians or Jordanians, etc. When they will migrate to the neighboring countries, they'd definitely start doing whatever is necessary to combat the IDF. In the next post, unless you have anything of importance or any real use, you'd do yourself a favor by refraining to post.



*Where did you learn the zionazi tune? If you love the zionazi tune so much start waving the zionazi flag, it has a star of David. Do yourself a favour, get lost.*


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## A.Rafay

Already 4 of 5 threads about pakistani ICBMS Are opened Just for trolling nobody is posting Actual info in them


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## Slayer786

There is always some truth to rumours. But there is no article or links suggesting that Pakistan is developing an ICBM. But it makes sense not to disclose it at this sensitive time. Because after Syria and Iran it will be the turn of Pakistan to face the wraith of the West.


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## karan21

Why Pakistan needs to keep a secret. Just call Tiamur a space launch vehicle rather than a missile. Reason: India has big ones so we need one too. West has no reason to put any more sanctions. I think it is very imp for Pakistan to launch its own satellites. As an India I can tell you how much benefit Indian space missions have brought to us. The returns are far beyond the investments done.

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## Dr. Strangelove

karan21 said:


> Why Pakistan needs to keep a secret. Just call Tiamur a space launch vehicle rather than a missile. Reason: India has big ones so we need one too. West has no reason to put any more sanctions. I think it is very imp for Pakistan to launch its own satellites. As an India I can tell you how much benefit Indian space missions have brought to us. The returns are far beyond the investments done.


havent you seen the western draMA about north korean slv


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## T-Rex

Slayer786 said:


> Because after Syria and Iran it will be the turn of Pakistan to face the wraith of the West.



*The friends of uncle sam in Pakistan definitely won't admit this and they are in power. They think if Pakistan befriends israel the threat will disappear. They will never admit that uncle is bent on breaking Pakistan.*


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## qasimali

We are sleeping but not dead. We will protect ourselves very well.

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## regular

but the sleepings are almost dead......can't do anything...

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## Dr. Strangelove

i request mods to close such threads they only invite fanboys and trolls

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## MastanKhan

qasimali said:


> We are sleeping but not dead. We will protect ourselves very well.



Senor,

That is just an illusion that we have maintained and believed in to satisfy our laziness and incompetence.

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## genmirajborgza786

qasimali said:


> We are sleeping but not dead. We will protect ourselves very well.



sorry _janab gusthaki maaf _ but you were saying the same thing regarding siachin from 1978 onward but when the time came you did not deliver 




MastanKhan said:


> Senor,
> 
> That is just an illusion that we have maintained and believed in to satisfy our laziness and incompetence.



what else do you expect sir' after all we are paying the price of sycophancy 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8-M3CvMrGpE/T4VFy97WFvI/AAAAAAAAX4E/VZcM_qZqCns/s1600/SYCOPHANCY.jpg

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## Dr. Strangelove

MastanKhan said:


> Senor,
> 
> That is just an illusion that we have maintained and believed in to satisfy our laziness and incompetence.





what else we can do


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## Alpha1

Is it just me or almost the entire Pakistan defence forum hierarchy is filled with indian,pro-indian a liberals and anti pakarmy trolls! Coming back to topic any exact date on Taimoor ICBM


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## SOHEIL



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## Hassan Guy

Where these Taimurs and Tipus at?


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## Reichsmarschall

Arsalan said:


> BUT the Shaheen-III and Ghauri-III in development with range of about 3500-4000 and 3000-3500Km if developed will be able to reach Israel!!


Sir why do they reduced the range to 2750??


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## Hassan Guy

*RSD-10/SS-20 



*
Long Range 3 MIRV capable 2 stage Solid fuel Ballistic Missile

Shaheen 4 will be something similar(probably)


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## Reichsmarschall

Hassan Guy said:


> *RSD-10/SS-20
> View attachment 346048
> *
> Long Range MIRV capable 2 stage Solid fuel Ballistic Missile
> 
> Shaheen 4 will be something similar(probably)


which country own it??


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## Hassan Guy

Narendra Trump said:


> which country own it??


Soviets, they have many other variations in service with Russia today


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## Super Falcon

If india have ICBM why can't we we should have a full range of toys


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## Skies

Super Falcon said:


> If india have ICBM why can't we we should have a full range of toys



Just in case money is the issue, I was thinking if it is possible to open public fund where people would donate as much as possible.

Want to see PK sending its own Sat using SLV from its own soil.

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## Sinnerman108

Skies said:


> Just in case money is the issue, I was thinking if it is possible to open public fund where people would donate as much as possible.
> 
> Want to see PK sending its own Sat using SLV from its own soil.



The day we launch anything with 1km range more than what india is,
the whole world will go crazy ..

In the name of survival, lets not increase any range, 
All we need are small , effective, accurate battle field systems or cruise missiles.

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## Skies

Sinnerman108 said:


> The day we launch anything with 1km range more than what india is,
> the whole world will go crazy ..
> 
> In the name of survival, lets not increase any range,
> All we need are small , effective, accurate battle field systems or cruise missiles.




It can be a good business, and the market is Muslim world. 

India earns from Sat launch of other countries regularly.


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## ISI-1

psugumar said:


> For attacking India or Isrel (may be possible future threat) Pak does not need ICBM,Can any of our friends tell me if there is any significance Pakistan spending on ICBM?



Maybe you're correct in your assumption. If Pakistan is developing such a system - ICBM or any other, why does it bother anyone? The dastardly illegal Zionist Yehuud state alongside decepetive Zionist India, has weapons to obliterate and annihilate countless people the world over, and yet they're blind, ignorant hypocritical fools asking absurd naive questions relating to Pakistan developing such weapons? I'd recommend such people to go out more often and develop friendships rather than make assumptions and demonise peace loving states, who want to exist and allow others to exist, provided no threats emanate fom any quarters.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Skies said:


> It can be a good business, and the market is Muslim world.
> 
> India earns from Sat launch of other countries regularly.




Unfortunately, apart from Pakistan, Iran, Turkey & Indonesia the rest of the Muslim world is indifferent and in a slumber. Or they're suffering really badly like the Iraqis, Syrians & Libyans. My heart goes out to them. The Muslim world is not in a position at the moment to reap the rewards or add to Pakistani military developments.

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## DavidSling

vikrams said:


> world doesnt know pak has nukes until they test it in 1998.when did israel test its nukes.


Did Israel Play a Role in 1979 South Africa Nuclear Test?

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...le-in-1979-south-africa-nuclear-test-1.281226

Nearly 30 years later there still is no certainty that a flash detected by the sensors of an American satellite indeed signaled a nuclear test that, according to foreign publications, *involved Israel.*


It is believed that the *Jericho III* is a nuclear armed ICBM which entered service in 2011. *The Jericho III is believed to have a three-stage solid propellant and a payload of 1,000 to 1,300 kg.* *It is possible for the missile to be equipped with a single 750 kg nuclear warhead or two or three low yield MIRV warheads.* It has an estimated launch weight of 30,000 kg and a length of 15.5 m with a width of 1.56 m. It may be similar to an upgraded and re-designed Shavit space launch vehicle, produced by Israel Aerospace Industries. It probably has longer first and second-stage motors. It is estimated by missilethreat.com that it has a range of 4,800 to 6,500 km (2,982 to 4,038 miles),[22] though a 2004 missile proliferation survey by the Congressional Research Service put its possible *maximum range at 11,500 km*.[23]

According to an official report which was submitted to the American congress in 2004,* it may be that with a payload of 1,000 kg the Jericho III gives Israel nuclear strike capabilities within the entire Middle East, Africa, Europe, Asia and almost all parts of North America, as well as large parts of South America and North Oceania. Missile Threat reports: "The range of the Jericho 3 also provides an extremely high impact speed for nearby targets, enabling it to avoid any Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) defenses that may develop in the immediate region."*[22] On 17 January 2008 Israel test fired a multi-stage ballistic missile believed to be of the Jericho III type, reportedly capable of carrying "conventional or non conventional warheads."[24] On 2 November 2011, Israel successfully test fired a missile believed to be an *upgraded version of the Jericho III* at Palmachim; the long trail of smoke was seen throughout central Israel.[25] *Israel's intercontinental ballistic missile launchers are believed to be buried so far underground that they would survive a nuclear attack.*[26][27]

After a further test in 2013 Alon Ben David published this opinion in an article in Aviation Week on the missile's range and throw weight "Reportedly, Israel's Jericho III intermediate-range ballistic missile is capable of carrying a 1,000-kg (2,204-lb.) warhead more than 5,000 km."[28]


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## khansaheeb

psugumar said:


> For attacking India or Isrel (may be possible future threat) Pak does not need ICBM,Can any of our friends tell me if there is any significance Pakistan spending on ICBM?



We do need Taimur as a delivery vehicle to send Satellites up.

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## Banglar Bir

ALHUMDULILLAH, PRAYING TO ALMIGHTY ALLAH , THAT ICBM GOALS ARE ACHIEVED WITH IN THE SHORTEST POSSIBLE TIME, NOT MEANT FOR INDIA *BUT PRIMED, COORDINATED AND AIMED TO STRIKE AT THE HEART OF THE EVIL ZIONISTS EMPIRE, AS WELL.*

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## Ultima Thule

khansaheeb said:


> We do need Taimur as a delivery vehicle to send Satellites up.


bro launch vehicle and ICBM whole different things, you mixing up both


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## The SC

"Pakistan possesses various ICBMs which have a range of 9000+ kilometres", said the official, "But they will be revealed and tested when there is a need for it. At the moment, Pakistan is silently observing the Eastern Theatre of Operations spearheaded by the US and its increasing presence in Europe, the Pacific Ocean and South Asia. Add to that Indian frolicking and the coming US-Israel drills in the Middle East... and when the time comes, those who should know, will know, Pakistan also has targets beyond India... way beyond India". 

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...ange-of-9000-kilometres.176064/#ixzz4O8ns0jfe

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## T-Rex

The SC said:


> "Pakistan possesses various ICBMs which have a range of 9000+ kilometres", said the official, "But they will be revealed and tested when there is a need for it. At the moment, Pakistan is silently observing the Eastern Theatre of Operations spearheaded by the US and its increasing presence in Europe, the Pacific Ocean and South Asia. Add to that Indian frolicking and the coming US-Israel drills in the Middle East... and when the time comes, those who should know, will know, Pakistan also has targets beyond India... way beyond India".
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...ange-of-9000-kilometres.176064/#ixzz4O8ns0jfe



*You mentioned this forum as the source, that's not a bright practice. Anyway, what you claimed should be the case but if you take into consideration the shortsightedness and corrupt nature of the Pakistani leaders there's a chance that they have not yet developed any ICBMs. The US pays handsome amounts to the 'right' people in Pakistan just to prevent this kind of development.*

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## The SC

T-Rex said:


> *You mentioned this forum as the source, that's not a bright practice. Anyway, what you claimed should be the case but if you take into consideration the shortsightedness and corrupt nature of the Pakistani leaders there's a chance that they have not yet developed any ICBMs. The US pays handsome amounts to the 'right' people in Pakistan just to prevent this kind of development.*


Source:
Exclusive: Pakistani security official discusses the Shaheen-1A test ~ Terminal X
Maybe you should try to open this link to show us how brilliant you are


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## singlefighter

First of all Pakistan must recruit new engineers and scientists for the Suparco and give them a handsome budget and then give them task to overhaul their rocket motor facility into a modern state of art laboratory to check the new solid propellants and rocket body composites to overcome their shortage of knowledge with respect to need of time.then also start work on the satellite of different job purpose with the help of chinese friends and then suparco could be converted into profitable institution for the commercial satellites launching facility for different national and international institutions. But all we can do in order to made a road map for the wake up of suparco which is long sleep period. I know it is difficult but they can do this i know an engineer who working in suparco but after 10 years job he joins the NDC and after some training he join the team of shaheen missile series its mean they had the potential but never utilize. If they try to make Suparco once again national pride like late 60s and 70s era it is possible they can call back their old employees and start work on rocket engineering than can achieve the goal in a short period of 5 to 7 years which will be not very late.they can also establish a educational facility for advance study on rocket science where selected student will study ansd then serve Suparco and NDC or NESCOM. "Jahan chah wahan raah". Thank you.


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## T-Rex

The SC said:


> Source:
> Exclusive: Pakistani security official discusses the Shaheen-1A test ~ Terminal X
> Maybe you should try to open this link to show us how brilliant you are


*
I tried your source but it gives out 'error 404'. Anyway I gave my opinion as to what critics might point out, I had no intention to insult you, matter of fact, your view and mine are pretty much same. I think we should try to avoid misunderstanding by looking at the intention of our friends rather than looking at the way they express themselves. The last thing we need right now is more misunderstanding among ourselves.*

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## surya kiran

Super Falcon said:


> If india have ICBM why can't we we should have a full range of toys



India does not have an operational ICBM, nor has it tested one. 'Surya' is just a rumour.


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## Andrea17

T-Rex said:


> *You mentioned this forum as the source, that's not a bright practice. Anyway, what you claimed should be the case but if you take into consideration the shortsightedness and corrupt nature of the Pakistani leaders there's a chance that they have not yet developed any ICBMs. The US pays handsome amounts to the 'right' people in Pakistan just to prevent this kind of development.*





US can pay all they want but the security R&D infrastructure has always remained out of reach for US or even the Pakistani elite subject to US influence.

And the major threats for Pakistan will emerge from Europe and Americas if not already. The more they cozy up to China and Russia the more anti Nato they will become...and this is where Pakistan is being led now by the current Security Elite, and the current pro west elite is the last generation that are soon to be ousted...

Or so say some of my well paced contacts in the right places...

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## The SC

T-Rex said:


> *I tried your source but it gives out 'error 404'. Anyway I gave my opinion as to what critics might point out, I had no intention to insult you, matter of fact, your view and mine are pretty much same. I think we should try to avoid misunderstanding by looking at the intention of our friends rather than looking at the way they express themselves. The last thing we need right now is more misunderstanding among ourselves.*


I agree, and hope you understand why I pointed out to the PDF thread now.. The post was important enough for this thread..
Cheers

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## khanmubashir

Salahadin said:


> Pakistan . ICBMS Nuclear Capable Missile Taimur is this a rumor or is there something we are working on please advise [/QUOTE
> a small slbm of few 1000 km ha can b launched from torpedo tubes like tomahawk can will b much more useful than icbm


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## Incog_nito

I think Taimur might be tailored version of the recently retired Chinese ICBM.


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## Hassan Guy

Oxair Online said:


> I think Taimur might be tailored version of the recently retired Chinese ICBM.


It will most probably be Soviet Based because they have designed ICBMS that are launched from a road-mobile TEL.

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## Incog_nito

Hassan Guy said:


> It will most probably be Soviet Based because they have designed ICBMS that are launched from a road-mobile TEL.


But Pakistan should have bought recent Chinese retired ICBMs and upgrade it with latest Chinese avionics.


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## Hassan Guy

Oxair Online said:


> But Pakistan should have bought recent Chinese retired ICBMs and upgrade it with latest Chinese avionics.


The Chinese ones themselves are based on Soviet Designs. They will need improve the Shaheen Series, as said the next Shaheen Missile will (probably) be something similar to the SS-20.

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## T-Rex

*I think the clock is ticking, we might see a conventional war in this subcontinent any day. Modi and his RSS terrorists have dragged the situation to a point of no return. The RSS terrorists are in war frenzy just like the Nazis were prior to WW-II. If the war starts facilities involved in developing ICBMs will certainly be targeted with the help of the US and israeli intelligence and logistical support. It seems like the window of opportunity for developing ICBMs has closed for Pakistan. All these years Pakistan kept it for tomorrow and the tomorrow never came.*


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## Army research

T-Rex said:


> *I think the clock is ticking, we might see a conventional war in this subcontinent any day. Modi and his RSS terrorists have dragged the situation to a point of no return. The RSS terrorists are in war frenzy just like the Nazis were prior to WW-II. If the war starts facilities involved in developing ICBMs will certainly be targeted with the help of the US and israeli intelligence and logistical support. It seems like the window of opportunity for developing ICBMs has closed for Pakistan. All these years Pakistan kept it for tomorrow and the tomorrow never came.*


And replies also reached 666


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## Faiez

metalfalcon said:


> Pakistan is full of surprises and World may see another one soon.



AGREED !

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## RuheTag

surya kiran said:


> India does not have an operational ICBM, nor has it tested one. 'Surya' is just a rumour.



India do have now a gau Rakshak at power, isnt he enough? I think India doesnt need any ICBMs anymore. As stated by Defence Minister Parriker, the Hanumans can destroy enemy without its knowledge so why need waste money on ICBMs.


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## Neutron

I think it is compulsion for Pakistan to develop ICBM keeping in view US and Israel inclination towards india. Recent defence pact between US and India adversely affected balance of power in this region. So there is no other solution but to develop ICBM for balance of power in this region.

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## EpiiC

ziaulislam said:


> the article is an exaggeration of facts..
> 
> its claims we have a capacity of 12 since 1998 ..that means we would have 200 plotonium nukes?
> 
> we should equip our subs for nuclear deterrence, as they are much safer



True More important than land based Taimur is a SLBM 6-8 MIRVed ICBM !!!



Pakistanisage said:


> So when the US built 10,000 warheads did they seek Pakistan's permision ?
> 
> Pakistan needs to have at least 5000 + warheads to be taken seriously as a nuclear power. Period.
> 
> Pakistan also need to build another 20 Reactors to amply provide the Energy needed by this growing country.



I think its more about the missiles If you have 100 great missiles each missile can have depending on the payload 10-15 MIRV warheads so thats 100 nuclear missiles with total 1000-1500 warheads!!! As for 20 Nuclear power plants even that is not enough!!! 20,000MW more elecrtricty is still way too low....



Zarvan said:


> Sir America is always against us so we need a lot more Nuclear Weapons and Fastest ICBM



True this is a great post Zarwan my idea is that we need *+ at least 50 Land Based ICBMs Missies range 12000kms in ballistic as well as cruise missiles* --- As for the Sub Based we need 70-to 80 Missiles 



Narendra Trump said:


> Sir why do they reduced the range to 2750??



Pakistan messed up big time with Shaheen III range..... Shaheen ii or Gauri II was said to be 2500KM range max I was expecting Shaheen to have somewhere between 4000-5000KM range but like usual I am disappointed... 


Hassan Guy said:


> *RSD-10/SS-20
> View attachment 346048
> *
> Long Range 3 MIRV capable 2 stage Solid fuel Ballistic Missile
> 
> Shaheen 4 will be something similar(probably)



Pakistan need 3 stage Solid ICBM not 2 stage..... Is Pakistan capable of Three 150 kt Mirvs? We only have small tiny bomb yeilds, fusion bombs have low yeild we need fission bombs.....



Super Falcon said:


> If india have ICBM why can't we we should have a full range of toys



We should have a full range of toys and given more hostilty from USA and Israel testing Jericho III and every other nuclear state apart from us has ICBM .... we should not be the odd one left out. It's not in our interest .


Neutron said:


> I think it is compulsion for Pakistan to develop ICBM keeping in view US and Israel inclination towards india. Recent defence pact between US and India adversely affected balance of power in this region. So there is no other solution but to develop ICBM for balance of power in this region.



Your reasoning carries weight ... Pakistan will always find a way to disappoint with their missiles shaheen II Max range 2500 km and Shaheen III Max range 2750km lol Shaheen IIII will be around 4000km we are behind in every regard when it comes missile and rocket tecnology... 



Starlord said:


> Yeah , a Sub with AIP Tech with 8 CM with Range of 1000 KM is more than enough to tackle your enemy .. you don't have any enemy besides India .. US , NATO , Russia is out of our league to Fight


 Still we should not be limited like this.... 

So what we need now are better delivery systems, ICBMs, higher yield. H-bombs, nuke subs and SLMBs for second strike. 200-300 nuclear missiles, high and low yield with a ICBMs and cruise missile + target directing sattelites+ 2nd and 3rd Nuklear strike capability through stealthy subs, deep burried seilos and aircrafts etc etc....+ get ready to use them against any kinda threat to our country......Insha-Allah...... is more then enough to act as a detterent, having a few hundred nuclear missiles is a scary thought, and it will deter any aggressor. Currently we have tiny yield tactical nukes which are not good enought to cause major damage to India the way India can do to us so we must hurry!!


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## Alphacharlie

An ICBM Test by Pakistan will send a Devastating Message to West and Freeze all remaining AID.

Incase you are keen on Inflation to Reach 500%, VISAs to West to be Blocked, No More Loans from IMF and Milk to cost 200Rs Please go for It.....

But who will you launch it against - Israel/Brits/Yanks ?
Just Remember repurcussion 1 Yank SSBM/Dolphin Class is enough to Pay Back Many time(s)

You need to *WAKE UP* - HItting is 1 Option ----But a Big Butt----
What will you Protect yourself with ?

Nuclear Nations which engage in ICBMs or IRBMs go for Missile Defence as *SHEILD* !!
*You ?*


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## EpiiC

Alphacharlie said:


> An ICBM Test by Pakistan will send a Devastating Message to West and Freeze all remaining AID.
> 
> Incase you are keen on Inflation to Reach 500%, VISAs to West to be Blocked, No More Loans from IMF and Milk to cost 200Rs Please go for It.....
> 
> But who will you launch it against - Israel/Brits/Yanks ?
> 
> Just Remember repurcussion 1 Yank SSBM is enough to Pay Back Many time(s)


We must have other people in our range as detterence ..... Other nuclear states have us in their range why can't we???!!!!!


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## I S I

Alphacharlie said:


> and Milk to cost 200Rs Please go for It.....


Oh no, not the Milk. 

SCRAPING THE PROJECT.

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## Tank131

EpiiC said:


> Pakistan messed up big time with Shaheen III range..... Shaheen ii or Gauri II was said to be 2500KM range max I was expecting Shaheen to have somewhere between 4000-5000KM range but like usual I am disappointed...



Many experts have speculated that the actual range is much larger, but that the stated range was kept at 2750km because that is the exact range you need to hit all of India and its islands from deep in Pakistan. Interestingly the distance between Gawadar and Tel Aviv is 2790km meaning that from outside Gawadar, Pakistan could hit Israel too. For Pakistan, that is sufficient (STATED) range. More than that raises many other questions on why Pakistan needs such range and can be problematic for international relations. Just look at the 7 companies and institutions that were sanctioned by the US this week for the participation in Pakistan's missile project. I think there is more too it than meets the eye. Either Pakistan has stolen, acquired tech that will help it build a SLV/ICMB or the range of Shaheen 3 and or Babur is much more than meets the eye.


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## AUz

Alphacharlie said:


> An ICBM Test by Pakistan will send a Devastating Message to West and Freeze all remaining AID.
> 
> Incase you are keen on Inflation to Reach 500%, VISAs to West to be Blocked, No More Loans from IMF and Milk to cost 200Rs Please go for It.....
> 
> But who will you launch it against - Israel/Brits/Yanks ?
> 
> Just Remember repurcussion 1 Yank SSBM is enough to Pay Back Many time(s)



There is no need for ICBM test by Pakistan.

We already complete cover India and Israel with our current missile forces, and beyond that, we face very little direct threat.

The capability of conducting an ICBM missile launch has been achieved by Pakistan now. So we need to consolidate our economy, expand our tax base, fix our broken political system, and many more things.

By 2030, once we are strong enough--we can think about officially conducting ICBM tests IF we really do want to.

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## Khanate

EpiiC said:


> We must have other people in our range as detterence ..... Other nuclear states have us in their range why can't we???!!!!!




Marsian and Space Invaders pose no threat to Pakistan. Having operational ICBMs to guard against them is just frivolous defence spending.


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## EpiiC

Khanate said:


> Marsian and Space Invaders pose no threat to Pakistan. Having operational ICBMs to guard against them is just frivolous defence spending.


North Korea and Israel have them!!! Every other Nuclear state has them!!! Why can't we!!!


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## Khanate

EpiiC said:


> North Korea and Israel have them!!! Every other Nuclear state has them!!! Why can't we!!!




Bro, operational cost of ICBM isn't worth it given that we gain no additional benefit against our traditional foe, i.e., India. The money can be better spent on the new Air Defence systems, modernization efforts in Air Force, Navy and Army, etc.

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## war&peace

For a long time, I have advocated Pakistan demonstrating a restraint in testing long range missiles especially ICBMs. But the new developments like US slapping sanction on Pakistani organisation working in the field of missile development while supporting India into MTCR despite its testing of an ICBMs, has changed my mind and I support Pakistan testing an ICBM with a considerable range.

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## EpiiC

Khanate said:


> Bro, operational cost of ICBM isn't worth it given that we gain no additional benefit against our traditional foe, i.e., India. The money can be better spent on the new Air Defence systems, modernization efforts in Air Force, Navy and Army, etc.


Yaar, why should we be the left out all the time... Every country has us in their range but we barely have India in ours.... We shouldn't put all our missiles in one basket ala India it should be able to reach africa, europe, asia, ocienia, americas..... America also allowed India to mtcr and sanctioned some of our countries it's time to let hostile states no they ain't safe from us either!!!



war&peace said:


> For a ling I have advocated Pakistan demonstrating a restraint in testing long range missiles especially ICBMs. But the new developments like US slapping sanction on Pakistani organisation working in the field of missile development while supporting India into MTCR despite its testing of an ICBMs, has changed my mind and I support Pakistan testing an ICBM with a considerable range.


What sort of range are talking about here? 10-12000km ?


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## war&peace

EpiiC said:


> Yaar, why should we be the left out all the time... Every country has us in their range but we barely have India in ours.... We shouldn't put all our missiles in one basket ala India it should be able to reach africa, europe, asia, ocienia, americas..... America also allowed India to mtcr and sanctioned some of our countries it's time to let hostile states no they ain't safe from us either!!!
> 
> 
> What sort of range are talking about here? 10-12000km ?


A missile is considered an ICBM if it has a range of ≥ 5500 km But I'm talking about something in the 7000-8000 km and later test an SLBM with similar range after Pakistan acquires an SSBN..but that will take some time. However a more prudent approach will be test an MIRV with gigantic payload capacity for multiple warheads and range of ≥ 3500 and which can defeat enemy's defences.


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## The Deterrent



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## DavidSling

AUz said:


> There is no need for ICBM test by Pakistan.
> 
> We already complete cover India and Israel with our current missile forces, and beyond that, we face very little direct threat.
> 
> The capability of conducting an ICBM missile launch has been achieved by Pakistan now. So we need to consolidate our economy, expand our tax base, fix our broken political system, and many more things.
> 
> By 2030, once we are strong enough--we can think about officially conducting ICBM tests IF we really do want to.


Israel can intercept ur missiles, can u say the same?


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## rustom

war&peace said:


> For a long time, I have advocated Pakistan demonstrating a restraint in testing long range missiles especially ICBMs. But the new developments like US slapping sanction on Pakistani organisation working in the field of missile development while supporting India into MTCR despite its testing of an ICBMs, has changed my mind and I support Pakistan testing an ICBM with a considerable range.



It will be great if Pakistan does it ASAP. AOA.


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## farhan_9909

I had this dream about ICBM for Pakistan in my 9th/10th grade.

Looking at some of the post does make me nostalgic

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## HttpError

DavidSling said:


> Israel can intercept ur missiles, can u say the same?



lol you can only intercept unguided scuds, your iron dome stands no chances against guided missiles. Lol even iron dome isn't as effective against those unguided scuds so can you even think to intercept our very sophisticated systems.

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## war&peace

farhan_9909 said:


> I had this dream about ICBM for Pakistan in my 9th/10th grade.
> 
> Looking at some of the post does make me nostalgic


May your dream come true

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## DavidSling

HttpError said:


> lol you can only intercept unguided scuds, your iron dome stands no chances against guided missiles. Lol even iron dome isn't as effective against those unguided scuds so can you even think to intercept our very sophisticated systems.


LOL, Once u'll invent something on ur own call me alright kk
90% intercept rate it's not effective,kgo


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## Khanate

EpiiC said:


> Yaar, why should we be the left out all the time... Every country has us in their range but we barely have India in ours.... We shouldn't put all our missiles in one basket ala India it should be able to reach africa, europe, asia, ocienia, americas..... America also allowed India to mtcr and sanctioned some of our countries it's time to let hostile states no they ain't safe from us either!!!




To begin with, not "every country" has ballistic missiles in its inventory. And an active ballistic missiles program is rarer still.

*Read*: Worldwide Ballistic Missile Inventories

As I mentioned earlier, we gain no additional benefits from operational ICBMs. What Pakistan needs is to diversify types of missiles and corresponding delivery systems which is happening already. In fact, I would rather have the funds diverted to SUPARCO for the development of an Expendable Launch System than ICBMs we are never going to use. Its a pure waste of money.

As for supposed hostility, it means nothing. We are a nuclear state.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

DavidSling said:


> Israel can intercept ur missiles, can u say the same?




Truth is you lot are only good at intercepting Hamas home made fireworks, little Palestinian babies, children, elderly, defenceless men and women. You stand no chance against our powerful massive advanced missile arsenal or even that of Iran. Both of which could easily overwhelm your iron dome. That's why your establishment is so terrified of the Iranians 

When you can make things yourself 100% indigenously without $100s of billions worth of free assistance from America and Western Europe then please come and talk. Till then just stick to killing little Palestinian babies and disabled elderly.


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## AUz

DavidSling said:


> Israel can intercept ur missiles, can u say the same?



No you can't. Pakistan has long range ballistic missiles that deliver the warhead (few feet long) from space to their target. Intercepting such small warheads at such high velocity is very very hard. Ps, Shaheen III has terminal guidance whereby warhead can be made to change its direction just before it reenters the atmosphere--hence making it almost impossible for ABM systems to successfully acquire intercept these warheads.

Moreover, Pakistan has air-launched and land launched stealth cruise missiles with terrain hugging capability. Detecting them before they reach the target zone is very, very difficult.

Israel is a small, very very small nation. You can not intercept 100% of the missiles and cruise missiles fired at you from various angles, directions, and platforms. Even two strikes on Tel Aviv region and Jerusalem core of Israel will render it absolutely destroyed in terms of majority of its population, industrial capability, and state infrastructure.

Whereas you'll need atleast 15 to 20 such strikes for Pakistan (which is 40x bigger than Israel in land area alone)

So in a nuclear exchange, Israel will lose with almost absolute certainty and Pakistan will suffer great damage (best case scenario) or will cease to exist as a viable state (worst case scerio).

However, in worst case scenario, global Islam will suffer 3% to 5% or so reduction in its global size---whereas, global Judaism will lose 60% of its population (bigger impact than even holocaust)

So stop your little delusions. We are far, far more powerful than you in every way (thanks to our size and military power)--despite Israel being technologically more advance and better developed. You are far richer (just like Qatar, UAE, KSA, Malaysia and so on)

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## DavidSling

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Truth is you lot are only good at intercepting Hamas home made fireworks, little Palestinian babies, children, elderly, defenceless men and women. You stand no chance against our powerful massive advanced missile arsenal or even that of Iran. Both of which could easily overwhelm your iron dome. That's why your establishment is so terrified of the Iranians
> 
> When you can make things yourself 100% indigenously without $100s of billions worth of free assistance from America and Western Europe then please come and talk. Till then just stick to killing little Palestinian babies and disabled elderly.


"advanced" maybe in ur dreams, you come no where close to our technology kid

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## EpiiC

DavidSling said:


> Israel can intercept ur missiles, can u say the same?



Arrow 3 speed is Mach 9 and range is 90 miles?



HttpError said:


> lol you can only intercept unguided scuds, your iron dome stands no chances against guided missiles. Lol even iron dome isn't as effective against those unguided scuds so can you even think to intercept our very sophisticated systems.


Iron dome is used for small rockets....


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

DavidSling said:


> "advanced" maybe in ur dreams, you come no where close to our technology kid




You're right little boy. We don't have any technology advanced or otherwise that is so adept at doing your speciality: which is to murder small Palestinian babies and disabled elderly.


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## EpiiC

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Truth is you lot are only good at intercepting Hamas home made fireworks, little Palestinian babies, children, elderly, defenceless men and women. You stand no chance against our powerful massive advanced missile arsenal or even that of Iran. Both of which could easily overwhelm your iron dome. That's why your establishment is so terrified of the Iranians
> 
> When you can make things yourself 100% indigenously without $100s of billions worth of free assistance from America and Western Europe then please come and talk. Till then just stick to killing little Palestinian babies and disabled elderly.


This is our missiles we have tactical nukes but not nukes that can wipe cities out....








AUz said:


> No you can't. Pakistan has long range ballistic missiles that deliver the warhead (few feet long) from space to their target. Intercepting such small warheads at such high velocity is very very hard. Ps, Shaheen III has terminal guidance whereby warhead can be made to change its direction just before it reenters the atmosphere--hence making it almost impossible for ABM systems to successfully acquire intercept these warheads.
> 
> Moreover, Pakistan has air-launched and land launched stealth cruise missiles with terrain hugging capability. Detecting them before they reach the target zone is very, very difficult.
> 
> Israel is a small, very very small nation. You can not intercept 100% of the missiles and cruise missiles fired at you from various angles, directions, and platforms. Even two strikes on Tel Aviv region and Jerusalem core of Israel will render it absolutely destroyed in terms of majority of its population, industrial capability, and state infrastructure.
> 
> Whereas you'll need atleast 15 to 20 such strikes for Pakistan (which is 40x bigger than Israel in land area alone)
> 
> So in a nuclear exchange, Israel will lose with almost absolute certainty and Pakistan will suffer great damage (best case scenario) or will cease to exist as a viable state (worst case scerio).
> 
> However, in worst case scenario, global Islam will suffer 3% to 5% or so reduction in its global size---whereas, global Judaism will lose 60% of its population (bigger impact than even holocaust)
> 
> So stop your little delusions. We are far, far more powerful than you in every way, despite Israel being technologically more advance and better developed(thanks to our size and military power). You are far richer (just like Qatar, UAE, KSA, Malaysia and so on)


We don't have enough nukes or powerful nukes to wipe Israel fully out and Israel won't be able to cause as much damage to us as we can inflict upon them.... But Israel will have 4 or 5 layers of defense to intercept our missiles...

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## Yaseen1

It is far better to spend money on icbm than to loose it in corruption.It is only the matter of faith and will power.We should consider this spending as in the path of ALLAH ALMIGHTY ALONE for the benefit of whole Muslim world.


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## EpiiC

Muhammad bin Hamid said:


> It is far better to spend money on icbm than to loose it in corruption.It is only the matter of faith and will power.We should consider this spending as in the path of ALLAH ALMIGHTY ALONE for the benefit of whole Muslim world.


Pakistan have old atomic low yield nukes and not the more powerful fission nukes which can wipe cities out also we don't have MIRV so that gives India a good chance to intercept


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

EpiiC said:


> This is our missiles we have tactical nukes but not nukes that can wipe cities out....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We don't have enough nukes or powerful nukes to wipe Israel fully out and Israel won't be able to cause as much damage to us as we can inflict upon them.... But Israel will have 4 or 5 layers of defense to intercept our missiles...




I am talking about EVERYTHING in our inventory. Including those that are not publicly acknowledged or that MOST are not even aware of 



EpiiC said:


> Pakistan have old atomic low yield nukes and not the more powerful fission nukes which can wipe cities out also we don't have MIRV so that gives India a good chance to intercept




WRONG.....COMPLETELY WRONG! Pakistan has had H-bombs capability for AT LEAST 6 years now:

http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...g-nuclear-weapons-time-for-pakistan-to-rever/


The notion that we don't have ICBM or MIRV capability sounds a lot like the same claptrap that so vehemently proclaimed pre-May 1998 that Pakistan would NEVER EVER become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance. That we don't have the potential or capability to do this ever......lol.

Truth is that Pakistan has the above capability and much more. So when the need arises just like it did in May 1998 we will showcase it to the world 

Till then, we'll keep all enemies and potential foes guessing. The element of surprise should never ever be undestimated.


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## war&peace

DavidSling said:


> LOL, Once u'll invent something on ur own call me alright kk
> 90% intercept rate it's not effective,kgo


How effective was it against Hezbollah's unguided rockets?


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## EpiiC

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> I am talking about EVERYTHING in our inventory. Including those that are not publicly acknowledged or that MOST are not even aware of
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WRONG.....COMPLETELY WRONG! Pakistan has had H-bombs capability for AT LEAST 6 years now:
> 
> http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...g-nuclear-weapons-time-for-pakistan-to-rever/


That might be speculation though it took Pakistan 11 years from shaheen II to Shaheen III to add just 250KM I can't feel good about that.



PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> I am talking about EVERYTHING in our inventory. Including those that are not publicly acknowledged or that MOST are not even aware of
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WRONG.....COMPLETELY WRONG! Pakistan has had H-bombs capability for AT LEAST 6 years now:
> 
> http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...g-nuclear-weapons-time-for-pakistan-to-rever/


I know we have the capability its acknowleged itself that it's building low yield tactical nukes.... These nukes ain't going to wipe no city out...



war&peace said:


> How effective was it against Hezbollah's unguided rockets?


They Irom dome and David sling for longer range rockets which Iron dome can't hit or reach... Iron Dome has been extremly effective in intercepting 85-90% of rockets..... David sling will add another layer of protection.... As for Arrow 2 and Arrow 3 they are for theatre ballistic missiles.... Arrow 2 can travel Mach 9 at 60 Mile distance ..... Arrow 3 promises to be even faster and longer range than Arrow 2.... Thats 4 layers of defense not to mention the 5th Layer which is called Iron Beam which is laser based defence.....


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

EpiiC said:


> That might be speculation though it took Pakistan 11 years from shaheen II to Shaheen III to add just 250KM I can't feel good about that.
> 
> 
> I know we have the capability its acknowleged itself that it's building low yield tactical nukes.... These nukes ain't going to wipe no city out...




Not ALL of Pakistan's nukes are low yield tactical ones. We have plenty of race and nation destroyers to. Which is why our enemies are powerless to attack us even though they are more than 7x bigger than us and have abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems whilst we are denied this privilege.


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## EpiiC

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Not ALL of Pakistan's nukes are low yield tactical ones. Who have plenty of race and nation destroyers to. Which is why our enemies are powerless to attack us even though they are more than 7x bigger than us and have abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems whilst we are denied this privilege.


Yes those small yields can be used for strategic locations but we need higher yeild and 6-10 Mirved Missiles!!!! India has a few layers of defence which could intercept our single warhead missiles.


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## war&peace

EpiiC said:


> That might be speculation though it took Pakistan 11 years from shaheen II to Shaheen III to add just 250KM I can't feel good about that.


No you are lying.. there is a huge difference between the two and I don't reveal info to false flaggers


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

EpiiC said:


> That might be speculation though it took Pakistan 11 years from shaheen II to Shaheen III to add just 250KM I can't feel good about that.
> 
> 
> I know we have the capability its acknowleged itself that it's building low yield tactical nukes.... These nukes ain't going to wipe no city out...
> 
> 
> They Irom dome and David sling for longer range rockets which Iron dome can't hit or reach... Iron Dome has been extremly effective in intercepting 85-90% of rockets..... David sling will add another layer of protection.... As for Arrow 2 and Arrow 3 they are for theatre ballistic missiles.... Arrow 2 can travel Mach 9 at 60 Mile distance ..... Arrow 3 promises to be even faster and longer range than Arrow 2.... Thats 4 layers of defense not to mention the 5th Layer which is called Iron Beam which is laser based defence.....




Only 85-90% protection against Hamas homemade dogey fireworks???????......That's rubbish!!!!!!!. They are however highly effective at killing small innocent Palestinian babies and disabled elderly though. 

A competent professional military (like Pakistan) could potentially produce cost-effective countermeasures to those systems though.


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## EpiiC

war&peace said:


> No you are lying.. there is a huge difference between the two and I don't reveal info to false flaggers


Better Guidance system with slightly more payload ?


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

EpiiC said:


> Yes those small yields can be used for strategic locations but we need higher yeild and 6-10 Mirved Missiles!!!! India has a few layers of defence which could intercept our single warhead missiles.




Pakistan already has them and has more than enough counter measures to ANY Indian ABM system. Indian military high command knows this only too well. That's why they were powerless to attack Pakistan after mumbai 2008 even though they are more than 7x bigger than us and have abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems whilst we are denied this privilege


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## EpiiC

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Only 85-90% protection against Hamas homemade dogey fireworks???????......That's rubbish!!!!!!!. They are however highly effective at killing small innocent Palestinian babies and disabled elderly though.
> 
> A competent professional military (like Pakistan) could potentially produce cost-effective countermeasures to those systems though.


Thats the widely reported percentage, some rockets do get past the defense check it out on youtube.... however the intercept rate is still very good... Israel main defence for missiles is the arrow system....



PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Pakistan already has them and has more than enough counter measures to ANY Indian ABM system. Indian military high command knows this only too well. That's why they were powerless to attack Pakistan after mumbai 2008 even though they are more than 7x bigger than us and have abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems whilst we are denied this privilege


None of our nukes have MIRV currently, I guess it only takes 130 low yield nukes to keep India in check!!!


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

EpiiC said:


> Thats the widely reported percentage, some rockets do get past the defense check it out on youtube.... however the intercept rate is still very good... Israel main defence for missiles is the arrow system....





Which have only been tested against dogey homemade fireworks....lol. I can even throw a ball more faster than those things.....lol. And you base everything on that..... 

Nice try trolling false flagger......lol

@Oscar @waz @Zaki



EpiiC said:


> Thats the widely reported percentage, some rockets do get past the defense check it out on youtube.... however the intercept rate is still very good... Israel main defence for missiles is the arrow system....
> 
> 
> None of our nukes have MIRV currently, I guess it only takes 130 low yield nukes to keep India in check!!!




That's what you think....lol. But then again wasn't the same said about Pakistan's nuke capability too? Come out of your she'll now! Poor attempt at your false flag charade


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## EpiiC

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Which have only been tested against dogey homemade fireworks....lol. I can even throw a ball more faster than those things.....lol. And you base everything on that.....
> 
> Nice try trolling false flagger......lol
> 
> @Oscar @waz @Zaki
> 
> Not trolling and I ain't a false flagger either can't deal with critism?
> 
> 
> That's what you think....lol. But then again wasn't the same said about Pakistan's nuke capability too? Come out of your she'll now! Poor attempt at your false flag charade


Your unfounded claim has no basis...


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

EpiiC said:


> Your unfounded claim has no basis...




We'll let the mods decide that. You have been reported. It's easy to spot your kind.


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## EpiiC

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> We'll let the mods decide that. You have been reported. It's easy to spot your kind.


Great it shows how easy it is for you to be fooled.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

EpiiC said:


> Great it shows how easy it is for you to be fooled.




Let's wait and see


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## AUz

EpiiC said:


> We don't have *enough nukes or powerful nukes *to wipe Israel fully out and Israel won't be able to cause as much damage to us as we can inflict upon them.... But Israel will have 4 or 5 layers of defense to intercept our missiles...



Don't talk about things you don't know.

Here's a hint: Pakistani nuclear warheads are designed to create "irreversible" damage on indian targets. 

Targets such as indias largest industrial city (Mumbai with 20 million population) or indias capital region (with almost 46m population)--our nuclear weapons are designed to form deterrence against india. You don't do that by having just 35kt warheads. 



Ps, a mere 50kt warhead would utterly decimate Tel Aviv and surrounding regions. Just four multiple 35kt warheads would make Israel to cease as a viable state. And 35kt is a smaller warhead used by likes of Babur cruise missile---not out "one ton" warhead that Shaheen IIs and IIIs can deliver


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## EpiiC

AUz said:


> Don't talk about things you don't know.
> 
> Here's a hint: Pakistani nuclear warheads are designed to create "irreversible" damage on indian targets.
> 
> Targets such as indias largest industrial city (Mumbai with 20 million population) or indias capital region (with almost 46m population)--our nuclear weapons are designed to form deterrence against india. You don't do that by having just 35kt warheads.
> 
> 
> 
> Ps, a mere 50kt warhead would utterly decimate Tel Aviv and surrounding regions. Just four multiple 35kt warheads would make Israel to cease as a viable state. And 35kt is a smaller warhead used by likes of Babur cruise missile---not out "one ton" warhead that Shaheen IIs and IIIs can deliver


On Nuke map I've tested it we can do a lot of damage to Israel but for that we need Mirv thermonuclear fission missiles we have currently atomic nukes not hydrogen nukes....we don't have higher yeilding thermonuclear weapons we have low yeilding tactical nukes.... The largest yeild we tested was 45KT which is good but not for India.... our largest testing Nuke on Delhi can kill 367,900 people with 1.25M injuries and Thermal radiation/3rd degree burns for 3KM radius..... India has much larger mass area hence it will require much more nukes and power to cause as much damage as they can to us on percentage basis....


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## AUz

EpiiC said:


> On Nuke map I've tested it we can do a lot of damage to Israel but for that we need Mirv thermonuclear fission missiles we have currently atomic nukes not hydrogen nukes....we don't have higher yeilding thermonuclear weapons we have low yeilding tactical nukes.... The largest yeild we tested was 45KT which is good but not for India.... our largest testing Nuke on Delhi can kill 367,900 people with 1.25M injuries and Thermal radiation/3rd degree burns for 3KM radius..... India has much larger mass area hence it will require much more nukes and power to cause as much damage as they can to us on percentage basis....



Tests are just that. Tests.

Our actual warheads don't have to be exact same yield as what we tested.

Anyways, not talking about this anymore..

Keep having fun with websites and calculations. They are fun to play with!


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## EpiiC

AUz said:


> Tests are just that. Tests.
> 
> Our actual warheads don't have to be exact same yield as what we tested.
> 
> Anyways, not talking about this anymore..
> 
> Keep having fun with websites and calculations. They are fun to play with!


Yes here : 

http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/


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