# Drinking liqour is not Haram - Federal Shariat Court



## Spring Onion

Shariat court rules whipping for drinking un-Islamic

ISLAMABAD, May 28:* The Federal Shariat Court (FSC) has declared whipping for the offence of drinking as un-Islamic and directed the government to amend the law to make the offence bailable.*

A full-bench of the FSC comprising Chief Justice Haziqul Khairi, Justice Salahuddin Mirza and Justice Fida Mohammad Khan gave the ruling on Thursday after hearing the arguments that the Holy Quran asks Muslims to stay away from liquor but does not specifically declares it Haram, or prohibited.

The FSC had taken up a Shariat petition of Dr M. Aslam Khaki, who had challenged different provisions of the Prohibition Order (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance 1979, in which drinking was provided as Hadd, prescribing 80 lashes as punishment for the offence.

Pleading the case, Dr Aslam Khaki argued before the FSC that the punishment of 80 whips was neither provided by the Holy Quran nor Sunnah, hence the offence should not be termed as Hadd. Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him), he recalled, had awarded only 40 sticks that too of a date tree to the offender, but not 80 whips.

Article 8 of the Prohibition Order (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance 1979 declares drinking liable to Hadd and suggests that whoever being an adult Muslim drinks intoxicating liquor by mouth is guilty of drinking liable to Hadd and shall be punished with whipping numbering 80 whips.

Islam had declared some specific offences as Hadd which are heinous, but the offence of drinking is not a heinous crime, he argued.Though the Holy Quran has attributed drinking as both benefit and also Haram, but declared Haram is more than its benefit. Thus the offence of drinking is not absolute Haram.

He contended that Article 25 of the ordinance which provided punishment for attempt to drinking was violative of the injunction of Islam as neither Holy Quran nor Sunnah had provided any punishment for it.

If a person makes an attempt to drink but withdraws, he should be appreciated but not be punished, he said, adding intention of commission of crime without any physical act was not a crime.

The court agreeing with the petitioner declared the provisions of 80 lashes as un-Islamic and directed the federal government to amend the relevant laws to replace the punishment of whipping with sticks within six months by making it bailable offence.

In case the government failed to amend the Hadd law, the punishment will cease to exist and become void, the judgment held.



Shariat court rules whipping for drinking un-Islamic


PAKISTAN OBSERVER: Drinking liqour is not Haram - Federal Shariat Court

Shariat court rules whipping for drinking un-Islamic

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## MilSpec

Drinking liqour is not Haram - Federal Shariat Court- cheers... good for the alcoholic drinks mfgs I guess


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## Imran Khan

qazi may be take it free last night lolz muft ki sharab or qazi wali baat hoi ye to .

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## Vibs

Jana said:


> Shariat court rules whipping for drinking un-Islamic
> *This method of killing is more for revenge and rage of insecure aging (generally) rich men with multiple captive sex partners of whom they are afraid for not being able to meet their (women's) emotional and sexual needs; as well as to create a state of general terror for the society and the minds of any prospective paramours*.


 
..was this really in the article or was this your own creation Jana? Either ways it's a gem!!!

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## Ajaxpaul

Good for everyone..more tax for govt. Win Win situation..


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## Malik Usman

This is what is our Fudal Class..............whole top level military officers, politcal leaders and beurcrates and even Some Supreme or High court Judges all they are drinkers................and they need reason to adopted this ****** thing.

Those Idiots i think didn't read the Quran clearly............where in Quran its mentioned........&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1604;&#1593;&#1606;&#1578; &#1576;&#1740;&#1726;&#1580;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1588;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576; &#1662;&#1729;&#1606;&#1746; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1746; &#1662;&#1585; &#1662;&#1604;&#1575;&#1606;&#1746; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1746; &#1662;&#1585;&#1548; &#1576;&#1740;&#1670;&#1746; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1746; &#1662;&#1585;&#1548; &#1582;&#1585;&#1740;&#1583;&#1606;&#1746; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1746; &#1662;&#1585;&#1548; &#1604;&#1575;&#1583; &#1705;&#1585; &#1604;&#1740;&#1746; &#1580;&#1575;&#1606;&#1746; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1746; &#1662;&#1585; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585;&#1575;&#1587; &#1662;&#1585; &#1580;&#1587; &#1705;&#1746; &#1604;&#1740;&#1746; &#1604;&#1575;&#1583; &#1705;&#1585; &#1604;&#1740;&#1746; &#1580;&#1575;&#1569;&#1740; &#1711;&#1740; &#1729;&#1746;&#1748;"

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## Xestan

What a pathetic judgement. I hope Islamic Ideology Council takes some action!

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## FreekiN

Smoking is actually worse than drinking.

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## Chogy

1) No alcohol, ever - probably a good choice in life

2) Glass of beer or wine with a meal - no problems, potential health benefits, still under debate

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3) getting ripped, blotto'd, smashed, trashed - haram

How about making intoxication haram? And what about smoking? Smoking is just as bad, if not worse, than alcohol.

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## xTra

I think drinking is Haram in Public not in Private

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## BelligerentPacifist

Chogy said:


> ...
> How about making intoxication haram? And what about smoking? Smoking is just as bad, if not worse, than alcohol.


Smoking was declared Haraam by Azhari scholars in the 1920s. Reading that short fatwa was very instructive of how their thought process worked. I''ll try to grab a hold of it again if I can.


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## BelligerentPacifist

*Jana, PAKISTAN OBSERVER has grossly misrepresented the statement of the FSC in their rubric "Drinking liqour is not Haram - Federal Shariat Court".

What they should have said is this: "whipping for drinking un-Islamic federal shariat court". Which is very understandable and quite unproblematic, given the fact of the absence of a State and the prevailing conditions of this society.*


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## kingkobra

smoking,drinking and any use of tobacco should be banned in all countries...suicide is a crime in all nations i guess then why allow this slow form of suicide??

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## Don Jaguar

Don Jaguar 
FULL MEMBERS

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

This message has been deleted by Elmo.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/122338-intruder-aircraft-will-shot-down-iaf.html


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## BelligerentPacifist

^Suicide is a crime? What is the usual punishment awarded?!

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## sur

Chogy said:


> 1) No alcohol, ever - probably a good choice in life
> 
> 2) Glass of beer or wine with a meal - no problems, *potential health benefits, still under debate*
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 3) getting ripped, blotto'd, smashed, trashed - haram
> 
> *How about making intoxication haram?* And what about smoking? Smoking is just as bad, if not worse, than alcohol.


 
Those benefits attributed to small-amounts of Red-wine etc are actually anti-Oxident benefits, & NOT because of alcohol part of it...
Those anti-Oxident benefits can be had even better by ingesting red-grapes instead of red-wine... 
-
--------------------------
-
*As to third point...
& as answer to that ruling given in OP... beating is NOT un-islamic... thou one can argue whether beating could be with "lashes" or not*

*Bukhari :: Book 3 :: Volume 38 :: Hadith 509*
Narrated 'Uqba bin Al-Harith:

When An-Nuaman or his son was brought *in a state of drunkenness, Allah's Apostle ordered all those who were present in the house to beat him*. I was one of those who beat him. We beat him *with shoes and palm-leaf stalks*.

*Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 81 :: Hadith 765*
Narrated 'Uqba bin Al-Harith:

An-Nu'man or the son of An-Nu'man was brought to the Prophet on a charge of drunkenness. So the Prophet ordered all the men present in the house, to beat him. So all of them beat him, and I was also one of them who beat him with shoes.


*Abu-Dawud :: Book 38 : Hadith 4474*
Narrated AbdurRahman ibn Azhar:

I saw the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) on the morning of the conquest of Mecca when I was a young boy. He was walking among the people, seeking the camp of Khalid ibn al-Walid. A man who had drunk wine was brought (before him) and he ordered them (to beat him). So they beat him with what they had in their hands. Some struck him with whips, some with sticks and some with sandals. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) threw some dust on his face.

When a man who had drunk wine was brought before *AbuBakr, he asked them (i.e. the people) about the number of beatings which they gave him. They numbered it forty. So AbuBakr gave him forty lashes.*

When Umar came to power, Khalid ibn al-Walid wrote to him: The people have become addicted to drinking wine and they look down upon the prescribed punishment and its penalty.

He said: They are with you, ask them. The immigrants who embraced Islam in the beginning were with him. He asked them and they agreed on the fact that (a drunkard) should be given eighty lashes.

Ali said: When a man drinks wine, he tells lies. I, therefore, think that he should be prescribed punishment that is prescribed for telling lies..


*Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 81 :: Hadith 770*
Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid:

We used to strike the drunks with our hands, shoes, clothes (by twisting it into the shape of lashes) during the lifetime of the Prophet, Abu Bakr and the early part of 'Umar's caliphate. But during the last period of 'Umar's caliphate, *he used to give the drunk forty lashes;* and when drunks became mischievous and disobedient, he used to scourge them eighty lashes.

*Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 104*
Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah observed: The fornicator who fornicates is not a believer so long as he commits it and no thief who steals is a believer as long as he commits theft, and* no drunkard who drinks wine is a believer as long as he drinks it. *'Abdul-Malik b. Abi Bakr' narrated this on the authority of Abu Bakr b. Abdur-Rahman b. Harith and then said: Abu Huraira made this addition: No plunderer who plunders a valuable thing that attracts the attention of people is a believer so long as he commits this act.

*BUT beating should NOT be so much for person to die...*
*Muslim :: Book 17 : Hadith 4232*
Ali reported: If I impose Hadd on anyone, and he (in course of punish ment) dies, I would not mind except in case of a drunkard. If he dies. I would pay indemnity for him because the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has laid down no rule for it.

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## kingkobra

BelligerentPacifist said:


> ^Suicide is a crime? What is the usual punishment awarded?!


 
its a crime if one fails to die..


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## Karachiite

Its about time to legalize it.

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## sur

BelligerentPacifist said:


> ^Suicide is a crime? What is the usual punishment awarded?!


No-Tresspassing of paradise... 

*Bukhari :: Book 2 :: Volume 23 :: Hadith 445*
Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak:

The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "Whoever intentionally swears falsely by a religion other than Islam, then he is what he has said, (e.g. if he says, 'If such thing is not true then I am a Jew,' he is really a Jew). And *whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire*." Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, "*A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him."*

*Bukhari :: Book 2 :: Volume 23 :: Hadith 446*
Narrated Abu Huraira-:

The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."

*Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 73 :: Hadith 73*
Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak:

(who was one of the companions who gave the pledge of allegiance to the Prophet underneath the tree (Al-Hudaibiya)) Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever swears by a religion other than Islam (i.e. if somebody swears by saying that he is a non-Muslim e.g., a Jew or a Christian, etc.) in case he is telling a lie, he is really so if his oath is false, and a person is not bound to fulfill a vow about a thing which he does not possess. And if somebody commits suicide with anything in this world, he will be tortured with that very thing on the Day of Resurrection; And if somebody curses a believer, then his sin will be as if he murdered him; And whoever accuses a believer of Kufr (disbelief), then it is as if he killed him."

*Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 78 :: Hadith 647*
Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak:

The Prophet said, "Whoever swears by a religion other than Islam, is, as he says; and whoever commits suicide with something, will be punished with the same thing in the (Hell) Fire; and cursing a believer is like murdering him; and whoever accuses a believer of disbelief, then it is as if he had killed him."


*Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 297*
Narrated Abu Huraira:

We were in the company of Allah's Apostle in a Ghazwa, and he remarked about a man who claimed to be a Muslim, saying, "This (man) is from the people of the (Hell) Fire." When the battle started, the man fought violently till he got wounded. Somebody said, "O Allah's Apostle! The man whom you described as being from the people of the (Hell) Fire fought violently today and died." The Prophet said, "He will go to the (Hell) Fire." Some people were on the point of doubting (the truth of what the Prophet had said) while they were in this state, suddenly someone said that he was still alive but severely wounded. When night fell, he lost patience and committed suicide. The Prophet was informed of that, and he said, "Allah is Greater! I testify that I am Allah's Slave and His Apostle." Then he ordered Bilal to announce amongst the people: 'None will enter Paradise but a Muslim, and Allah may support this religion (i.e. Islam) even with a disobedient man.'

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## Imran Khan

FreekiN said:


> Smoking is actually worse than drinking.


 
yes thats what i always say smoking make you sick and drinking bring you back hahahaha\

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## Imran Khan

kingkobra said:


> its a crime if one fails to die..


 
he should try seriously otherwise he fail shot on your head there will be no chance for failure lolz


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## sur

Chogy said:


> ...Smoking is just as bad, if not worse, than alcohol.


-
-


Imran Khan said:


> yes thats what i always say smoking make you sick and drinking bring you back hahahaha\


-
-

No smoking is NOT just as bad...

Smoking is hurtful for ur person mostly,,, drinking mostly hurts *society* other than ur person ,,, *Rapes & driving accidents & murders* ... individual cases don't count, rather we have to look at statistical data. Watch western local channels, every day ppl die from alcohol related incidences...

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## Imran Khan

sur said:


> -
> -
> 
> -
> -
> 
> No smoking is NOT just as bad...
> 
> Smoking is hurtful for ur person mostly,,, drinking hurts society other than ur person, mostly,,, *Rapes & driving accidents & murders*


 
11 saal main hum ne to na kisi ko hurt kiya na RAPE ki juraat hoi hahahah kam per jaty thy hafty main 2-3 bar 4 pag laga ker so jaty


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## Jango

were they under the influence of alcohol????,,,,i think the title has benn misdirecting, lashing for drinking is haraam, not alcohol is halal.


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## Evil Flare

any thing which causes humans to loose his mental state is Haram

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## Bilal Akhtar

i wish i had never started this but due to peer pressure i fell in the trap,15 years took its toll now im a patient of liver cirrhosis the damage and fibrosis is irreversible why dint ayone tell me its haram back then  i regret everything


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## BelligerentPacifist

^BA, I hope Allaah gives you recovery in health.


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## nescafe

sur said:


> Those benefits attributed to small-amounts of Red-wime etc are actually anti-Oxident benefits, & NOT because of alcohol part of it...
> Those anti-Oxident benefits can be had even better by ingesting red-grapes instead of red-wine...
> -
> --------------------------
> -
> *As to third point...
> & as answer to that ruling given in OP... beating is NOT un-islamic... thou one can argue whether beating could be with "lsahes" or not*
> 
> *Bukhari :: Book 3 :: Volume 38 :: Hadith 509*
> Narrated 'Uqba bin Al-Harith:
> 
> When An-Nuaman or his son was brought *in a state of drunkenness, Allah's Apostle ordered all those who were present in the house to beat him*. I was one of those who beat him. We beat him *with shoes and palm-leaf stalks*.
> 
> *Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 81 :: Hadith 765*
> Narrated 'Uqba bin Al-Harith:
> 
> An-Nu'man or the son of An-Nu'man was brought to the Prophet on a charge of drunkenness. So the Prophet ordered all the men present in the house, to beat him. So all of them beat him, and I was also one of them who beat him with shoes.
> 
> 
> *Abu-Dawud :: Book 38 : Hadith 4474*
> Narrated AbdurRahman ibn Azhar:
> 
> I saw the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) on the morning of the conquest of Mecca when I was a young boy. He was walking among the people, seeking the camp of Khalid ibn al-Walid. A man who had drunk wine was brought (before him) and he ordered them (to beat him). So they beat him with what they had in their hands. Some struck him with whips, some with sticks and some with sandals. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) threw some dust on his face.
> 
> When a man who had drunk wine was brought before *AbuBakr, he asked them (i.e. the people) about the number of beatings which they gave him. They numbered it forty. So AbuBakr gave him forty lashes.*
> 
> When Umar came to power, Khalid ibn al-Walid wrote to him: The people have become addicted to drinking wine and they look down upon the prescribed punishment and its penalty.
> 
> He said: They are with you, ask them. The immigrants who embraced Islam in the beginning were with him. He asked them and they agreed on the fact that (a drunkard) should be given eighty lashes.
> 
> Ali said: When a man drinks wine, he tells lies. I, therefore, think that he should be prescribed punishment that is prescribed for telling lies..
> 
> 
> *Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 81 :: Hadith 770*
> Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid:
> 
> We used to strike the drunks with our hands, shoes, clothes (by twisting it into the shape of lashes) during the lifetime of the Prophet, Abu Bakr and the early part of 'Umar's caliphate. But during the last period of 'Umar's caliphate, *he used to give the drunk forty lashes;* and when drunks became mischievous and disobedient, he used to scourge them eighty lashes.
> 
> *Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 104*
> Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah observed: The fornicator who fornicates is not a believer so long as he commits it and no thief who steals is a believer as long as he commits theft, and* no drunkard who drinks wine is a believer as long as he drinks it. *'Abdul-Malik b. Abi Bakr' narrated this on the authority of Abu Bakr b. Abdur-Rahman b. Harith and then said: Abu Huraira made this addition: No plunderer who plunders a valuable thing that attracts the attention of people is a believer so long as he commits this act.
> 
> *BUT beating should NOT be so much for person to die...*
> *Muslim :: Book 17 : Hadith 4232*
> Ali reported: If I impose Hadd on anyone, and he (in course of punish ment) dies, I would not mind except in case of a drunkard. If he dies. I would pay indemnity for him because the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has laid down no rule for it.


 
i was about to do that, but you prepared the answer in such a nice way. thanks...  and thumbs up for you.

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## VCheng

nescafe said:


> i was about to do that, but you prepared the answer in such a nice way. thanks...  and thumbs up for you.



So were these excellent and pertinent references not presented before the Federal Shariat Court, if not in their knowledge already?


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Given this judgement, what is the legal position now.

Can you drink or can you not?

Can foreigners drink and if so where can they do so and is there any restrictions?


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## kartika

sree narayana guru once told,

"its ok to drink alcohol,
its ok to distiribute alcohol,
its ok to keep alcohol,
just don't make it"!


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## AAtish

> What is the punishment or penalty when one has drunken alcohol?
> Can the person make salaat/ramadan?
> 
> Praise be to Allaah.
> Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
> 
> &#8220;O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), and gambling, and Al-Ansaab, and Al-Azlaam (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaytaan&#8217;s (Satan&#8217;s) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful&#8221;
> 
> [al-Maa&#8217;idah 5:90]
> 
> In Saheeh al-Bukhaari (2295) and Saheeh Muslim (86) it is narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: &#8220;No one who commits zina is a believer at the moment when he is committing zina, and no one who drinks wine is a believer at the moment when he is drinking it, and no thief is a believer at the moment when he is stealing, and no robber is a believer at the moment when he is robbing and the people are looking on.&#8221; This means that such a person is not a believer in the sense of having complete faith, rather his faith is greatly lacking because of this evil action.
> 
> It is also narrated in al-Bukhaari (5147) and Muslim (3736) from &#8216;Abd-Allaah ibn &#8216;Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: &#8220;Whoever drinks wine in this world and does not repent from that, he will be deprived of it in the Hereafter.&#8221;
> 
> In Sunan Abi Dawood (3189) it is narrated that Ibn &#8216;Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both) said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: &#8220;Allaah has cursed alcohol, the one who drinks it, the one who pours it, the one who sells it, the one who buys it, the one who squeezes it (squeezes the grapes, etc), the one for whom it is squeezed, the one who carries it and the one to whom it is carried.&#8221; (Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 2/700)
> 
> In Sunan al-Nasaa&#8217;i (5570) it is narrated that Ibn al-Daylami said to &#8216;Abd-Allaah ibn &#8216;Amr, &#8220;O &#8216;Abd-Allaah ibn &#8216;Amr, did you hear the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say anything about wine?&#8221; He said, &#8220;Yes, I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, &#8216;If any man from among my ummah drinks wine, Allaah will not accept his prayers for forty days.&#8217;&#8221; This was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilat al-Saheehah (709). What this means is that he will not be rewarded for them, but he is still obliged to pray; in fact he is obliged to do all the prayers. If he forsakes prayer during this time, he will be committing one of the worst of major sins, one which some of the scholars said amounts to kufr, Allaah forbid.
> 
> There are very many ahaadeeth and reports which state that alcohol is emphatically forbidden and that it is the mother of all evils; whoever falls into this sin, it will lead him into other evil actions. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound.
> 
> With regard to the punishment of the drinker in this world, the punishment is flogging, according to the consensus of the fuqaha&#8217;, because of the report narrated by Muslim (3281) from Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) flogged the one who had drunk wine with palm branches stripped of their leaves and with shoes.
> 
> But there is some difference of opinion as to the number of lashes. The majority of scholars are of the view that it is eighty lashes for a free man and forty for others.
> 
> They quoted as evidence the hadeeth of Anas quoted above, in which it says that a man who had drunk wine was brought to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and he had him flogged forty times with two palm branches that had been stripped of their leaves. Abu Bakr also did likewise (during his caliphate). When &#8216;Umar was the caliph, he consulted the people and &#8216;Abd al-Rahmaan said, &#8220;The minimum punishment is eighty,&#8221; so that is what &#8216;Umar commanded.
> 
> The Sahaabah agreed with &#8216;Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) and did not differ. The Council of Senior Scholars is agreed that the punishment for one who drinks wine is the hadd punishment, which is eighty lashes.
> 
> Some of the scholars &#8211; such as Ibn Quddamah (may Allaah have mercy on him) and Shaykh al-Islam [Ibn Taymiyah] in al-Ikhtiyaaraat &#8211; think that giving more than forty lashes is left to the discretion of the Muslim leader. So if he thinks that there is a need to give more than forty lashes, as happened at the time of &#8216;Umar, then he may make it eighty. And Allaah knows best.&#8221;
> 
> (See Tawdeeh al-Ahkaam, 5/330)
> 
> With regard to the wine-drinker&#8217;s prayer and fasting, undoubtedly he is obliged to perform the prayers on time and to fast in Ramadaan. If he neglects any of his prayers or fasts, then he is committing a major sin which is worse than the sin of drinking alcohol. If he drinks wine during the day in Ramadaan then he is committing two major sins: the first is breaking the fast during the day in Ramadaan and the second is drinking alcohol. He should note that if a Muslim falls into sin and is unable to repent because his faith is weak that does not justify him persisting in sin or failing to do acts of worship and being negligent concerning them. Rather he should do whatever he can of acts of worship and strive to give up the major sins that he is committing. We ask Allaah to help us to avoid sins, both major and minor, for He is the All-Hearing, Ever Near.
> 
> And Allaah knows best.



So 40 minimum and above it is upon the Muslim leader of the time if he wants to increase them up until 80.


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## Imran Khan

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> Given this judgement, what is the legal position now.
> 
> Can you drink or can you not?
> 
> Can foreigners drink and if so where can they do so and is there any restrictions?


 nope you can not ok mind it its land of pure if you have pure DALMORE world most expensive wine you can.if you are rich then dafa-11 drugs never apply on you . if you are middle class you can pay 500 rishwat the its impossible to take you in police station .if you sale and give batha you are most welcome . police will never ever touch you if you have wine cost more then 2000 ruppes because they know if you can buy 2000 ruppes wine you can give them 200 ruppes kharcha paani ..but in any case you are poor you drink desi and in your pocket there is 20 ruppes you are convected and you should stay in police station at night so morning your family bring rishwat for take you out .its land of pure .

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## 53fd

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> Given this judgement, what is the legal position now.
> 
> Can you drink or can you not?
> 
> Can foreigners drink and if so where can they do so and is there any restrictions?


 
There has not been any restriction for foreigners or non-Muslims to drink publicly in Pakistan, but I believe there is some 'paperwork' involved. Alcohol should be legalized for everyone, & everyone should be allowed to make their own choices.

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## manojb

Congrats. Now thats progress. Adults have to make their own choices. Thats the way it is.


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## Imran Khan

manojb said:


> Congrats. Now thats progress. Adults have to make their own choices. Thats the way it is.


 
adults can chose but we can not let them chose alcohol because it will make alcohol more expensive for us lolz


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## SQ8

Which maulana wants the liquor halwa??


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> Which maulana wants the liquor halwa??



All of them!


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## S.M.R

What has been held by court? whipping or drinking? what is not haram... I think it is whipping..


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## S.M.R

Waisay molvi to muft ki sharaab bhi nahi chorta.... Lolz


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## BelligerentPacifist

I find it amusing and sad at the same time that the FSC has time to ponder over this kind of petty stuff while the country is falling to pieces. Very much reminiscent of the Mongol sack of Baghdad when the scholars were busy debating whether Maryam PBUH was still a virgin after having given birth.

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## pak-marine

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy


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## T-Faz

Drinking is definitely halam.

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## VCheng

T-Faz said:


> Drinking is definitely halam.



Halam? Surely a typo that should be corrected.


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## T-Faz

VCheng said:


> Halam? Surely a typo that should be corrected.


 
No, its a new word.

It's a mix of haram and halal.

It means that something is halal if you like it, haram if you don't.

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## VCheng

T-Faz said:


> No, its a new word.
> 
> It's a mix of haram and halal.
> 
> It means that something is halal if you like it, haram if you don't.




I want to thank your post, but I am afraid that I will be struck down by a bolt of lightning!


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## Tshering22

Now one can have a good ole' mug at anytime in Pakistan. Think about it; so much stress could be relieved by those having a hard day mentally. But this all depends on how much a person can control himself or herself after drinking. That is where one's will power comes to test.


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## S.M.R

T-Faz said:


> No, its a new word.
> 
> It's a mix of haram and halal.
> 
> It means that something is halal if you like it, haram if you don't.


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## Meengla

@Bilal Akhtar: I am sorry to hear of your health issues. I hope you make a speedy recovery.

Drinks are quite available in Pakistan. Now, unless you REALLY are in a bad place, bad time, you are okay; people enjoy it in their houses.
During my last trip to Pakistan (Karachi) in 2009 I was offered some Murree Brewery beers by some cousins. Having never tasted any Pakistani beers ever in life I had to go for that. Boy, they made it strong there: After only a pint and a half of a stout beer, I was buzzed.

Nothing wrong with drinking in moderation. And if you are so inclined to drink a lot then just make sure the only damage you do is to yourself. You will have fun going down the drain--both money and life--but we all wither away one day anyway. Enjoy like Omar Khayyam's Rubai-yat.

Good that the FSC has made the ruling. Not that I have ever heard of public or even behind the wall lashings since damned Zia ul Haq died.

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## Vassnti

pak-marine said:


> Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy


 
Lol Sounds like PDF Partay at Pak-M's place bring your own beer


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## Thorough Pro

Actually anything/everything addictive is prohibited in Islam.




Chogy said:


> 1) No alcohol, ever - probably a good choice in life
> 
> 2) Glass of beer or wine with a meal - no problems, potential health benefits, still under debate
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 3) getting ripped, blotto'd, smashed, trashed - haram
> 
> How about making intoxication haram? And what about smoking? Smoking is just as bad, if not worse, than alcohol.


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## FreekiN

Thorough Pro said:


> Actually anything/everything addictive is prohibited in Islam.


 
So why aren't cigarretes banned? They do way more damage than alcohol.

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## muse

> How about making intoxication haram? And what about smoking? Smoking is just as bad, if not worse, than alcohol.



Some think that it is intoxication that is Haram - whatever the agent of intoxication.

A note to all -- the article says the FSC ruling is that Whipping persons for drinking Alcohol is UnIslamic ---- The state cannot tell you what you may or may not drink or eat or smoke - It is your voluntary act of faith, which prevents you from intoxicating yourself, not fear of the state - La iqra fideen - no compulsion in religion, no tyranny of religion - however, no conviction and or obligation undertaken voluntarily as a act of faith, can ever be a tyranny or a coercion by the state.

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## sur

FreekiN said:


> So why aren't cigarretes banned? *They do way more damage than alcohol*.


Simply statistically *WRONG* ... besides their damage is LARGELY limited to person himself, but alcohol hurts society more than or same as the person himself... One would love to see u die of lung cancer for all one cares... but if u r drunk & bother ppl around then they're gonna beat the crap out of u...


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## sur

muse said:


> Some think that it is intoxication that is Haram - whatever the agent of intoxication.
> 
> A note to all -- the article says the FSC ruling is that Whipping persons for drinking Alcohol is UnIslamic ---- The state cannot tell you what you may or may not drink or eat or smoke - It is your voluntary act of faith, which prevents you from intoxicating yourself, not fear of the state - *La iqra fideen * - no compulsion in religion, no tyranny of religion - however, no conviction and or obligation undertaken voluntarily as a act of faith, can ever be a tyranny or a coercion by the state.


But limited to premises of ur private residence ONLY, if u come in drunk state in public then it DOES become a responsibility of state & state can force it on u...


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## muse

Drunk in public becomes a legal matter - Drinking in public is not a legal matter - would you agree?

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## third eye

muse said:


> Drunk in public becomes a legal matter - Drinking in public is not a legal matter - would you agree?


 
I would 

The first unwritten rule while having a drink is not to drink to get drunk. 

Next, each one of us who drinks knows his ' limits' and knows when to callit a day & hit the sack.

Only " Dhobhis" get drunk in public and rightfully deserve the ' jootas' they get for it.

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## Agni5000

Is there any age limit for drinking in Islam?


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## notsuperstitious

Agni5000 said:


> Is there any age limit for drinking in Islam?


 
Yeah, its mentioned in one's death certificate.

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## Zarvan

Jana said:


> Shariat court rules whipping for drinking un-Islamic
> 
> ISLAMABAD, May 28:* The Federal Shariat Court (FSC) has declared whipping for the offence of drinking as un-Islamic and directed the government to amend the law to make the offence bailable.*
> 
> A full-bench of the FSC comprising Chief Justice Haziqul Khairi, Justice Salahuddin Mirza and Justice Fida Mohammad Khan gave the ruling on Thursday after hearing the arguments that the Holy Quran asks Muslims to stay away from liquor but does not specifically declares it Haram, or prohibited.
> 
> The FSC had taken up a Shariat petition of Dr M. Aslam Khaki, who had challenged different provisions of the Prohibition Order (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance 1979, in which drinking was provided as Hadd, prescribing 80 lashes as punishment for the offence.
> 
> Pleading the case, Dr Aslam Khaki argued before the FSC that the punishment of 80 whips was neither provided by the Holy Quran nor Sunnah, hence the offence should not be termed as Hadd. Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him), he recalled, had awarded only 40 sticks that too of a date tree to the offender, but not 80 whips.
> 
> Article 8 of the Prohibition Order (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance 1979 declares drinking liable to Hadd and suggests that whoever being an adult Muslim drinks intoxicating liquor by mouth is guilty of drinking liable to Hadd and shall be punished with whipping numbering 80 whips.
> 
> Islam had declared some specific offences as Hadd which are heinous, but the offence of drinking is not a heinous crime, he argued.Though the Holy Quran has attributed drinking as both benefit and also Haram, but declared Haram is more than its benefit. Thus the offence of drinking is not absolute Haram.
> 
> He contended that Article 25 of the ordinance which provided punishment for attempt to drinking was violative of the injunction of Islam as neither Holy Quran nor Sunnah had provided any punishment for it.
> 
> If a person makes an attempt to drink but withdraws, he should be appreciated but not be punished, he said, adding intention of commission of crime without any physical act was not a crime.
> 
> The court agreeing with the petitioner declared the provisions of 80 lashes as un-Islamic and directed the federal government to amend the relevant laws to replace the punishment of whipping with sticks within six months by making it bailable offence.
> 
> In case the government failed to amend the Hadd law, the punishment will cease to exist and become void, the judgment held.
> 
> 
> 
> Shariat court rules whipping for drinking un-Islamic
> 
> 
> PAKISTAN OBSERVER: Drinking liqour is not Haram - Federal Shariat Court
> 
> Shariat court rules whipping for drinking un-Islamic


 
Traitors of Islam Alcohal is a crime and its punishment is 80 lashes in Islam and these traitors are their to make their corrupt masters happy


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## Zarvan

Agni5000 said:


> Is there any age limit for drinking in Islam?


 
Drinikng is Haram in Islam you can't drink a single drop age limit is out of question


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## Zarvan

muse said:


> Some think that it is intoxication that is Haram - whatever the agent of intoxication.
> 
> A note to all -- the article says the FSC ruling is that Whipping persons for drinking Alcohol is UnIslamic ---- The state cannot tell you what you may or may not drink or eat or smoke - It is your voluntary act of faith, which prevents you from intoxicating yourself, not fear of the state - La iqra fideen - no compulsion in religion, no tyranny of religion - however, no conviction and or obligation undertaken voluntarily as a act of faith, can ever be a tyranny or a coercion by the state.


 Sorry sir Islamic State can and has to tell you and stop you from eating and drinking which is Haram because it is compulsory on Islamic Government only the slaves of Kafirs don't stop

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## muse

Thank you for confirming that coercion is mothers milk in your understanding of Islam and "Islamic government" -- and

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## SpArK

If drinking is haram, try injecting it.

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## Zarvan

muse said:


> Thank you for confirming that coercion is mothers milk in your understanding of Islam and "Islamic government" -- and


If you have problem with Islam its your problem but Islamic Government can't allow those things which are haram in Islam if you get caught in dealing with those things or eating them up Islamic Government can punish you and decide punishment for you because you are breaking the LAW and I think for breaking the LAW there is punishment to


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## muse

The problem can not be with Islam, it's with lunes who think they wil tell us that Islam and Islamic governance is about coercion and brutality - you guys are so deluded, mouthing off about what is islam and Islamic government - but it's OK, after all, there's little else you lot can do.


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## divya

if intoxication is so wrong what about anesthesia which is given for operation. what about all the medicines where alcohol and other intoxicating drugs are used....


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## Spring Onion

Vibs said:


> ..was this really in the article or was this your own creation Jana? Either ways it's a gem!!!


 
 NO NO how can i write such a gem lolzzzz 

it was part of that observer news writer's write up 

PAKISTAN OBSERVER: Drinking liqour is not Haram - Federal Shariat Court
lolzz though i read later it was such a rubish and no substance so


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## President Camacho

Alright, all those who want to lash others for drinking, what would you do about the alcohol that your own body produces for your own consumption on daily basis? 

Punish your own body for that?


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## divya

Jana said:


> NO NO how can i write such a gem lolzzzz
> 
> it was part of that observer news writer's write up
> 
> PAKISTAN OBSERVER: Drinking liqour is not Haram - Federal Shariat Court
> lolzz though i read later it was such a rubish and no substance so


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## Safriz

The title of this thread is very misleading


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## Zarvan

muse said:


> The problem can not be with Islam, it's with lunes who think they wil tell us that Islam and Islamic governance is about coercion and brutality - you guys are so deluded, mouthing off about what is islam and Islamic government - but it's OK, after all, there's little else you lot can do.


 Sorry Sir Secularism is only promoted by those traitors who don't want to leave their evil life style but ALLAH has clearly said in the Quran Islam will be implemented in the whole world even though kafirs don't like it so who ever will stand with Islam will be defeated and loose forever but Islam will be implemented no man can stop it


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## Zarvan

President Camacho said:


> Alright, all those who want to lash others for drinking, what would you do about the alcohol that your own body produces for your own consumption on daily basis?
> 
> Punish your own body for that?


 
Stop being funny man drinking Alcohal makes you loose control of yourself damages your body and destroys your health use some common sense sir


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## divya

Zarvan said:


> Sorry Sir Secularism is only promoted by those traitors who don't want to leave their evil life style but ALLAH has clearly said in the Quran Islam will be implemented in the whole world even though kafirs don't like it so who ever will stand with Islam will be defeated and loose forever but Islam will be implemented no man can stop it


 
so when are you planning to blow yourself off for the noble cause and kill some kaafirs.


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## President Camacho

Zarvan said:


> Stop being funny man drinking Alcohal makes you loose control of yourself damages your body and destroys your health use some common sense sir


 
What I am stating is not common knowledge, may be that is why you think it is funny. 

If you were among those whose alcohol content in the blood exceeded the permissible limit on daily basis, you would not be saying that.

Funny for you, no doubt !


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## President Camacho

Darn it, the double post


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## Zarvan

divya said:


> so when are you planning to blow yourself off for the noble cause and kill some kaafirs.


Sir first check the Maoists in your country they are enough for you


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## Zarvan

President Camacho said:


> What I am stating is not common knowledge, may be that is why you think it is funny.
> 
> If you were among those whose alcohol content in the blood exceeds the permissible limit on daily basis, you would not be saying that.
> 
> Funny for you, no doubt !


 and that makes a person drunk


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## divya

Zarvan said:


> Sir first check the Maoists in your country they are enough for you


 
sorry maoist are not self blowing fanatics who want to kill all the kaafirs. if they win it will be just india turning into communist state but will remain as it is today.... A country full of kafirs... lol


I wonder whats your plan with the kaafir china...


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## President Camacho

Zarvan said:


> and that makes a person drunk


 
I strongly feel you are one of those who laugh at others' miseries simply because they go beyond your comprehension capacity.


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## Safriz

Sorry...couldnt resist posting this pic about alcohol


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## Zarvan

divya said:


> sorry maoist are not self blowing fanatics who want to kill all the kaafirs. if they win it will be just india turning into communist state but will remain as it is today.... A country full of kafirs... lol
> 
> 
> I wonder whats your plan with the kaafir china...


 
India if you want peace solution is simple stop killing Kashmiris leave Kashmir and don't kill Muslims in your country and if you will not do it than expect backlash a severe backlash


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## Spring Onion

Zarvan said:


> Drinikng is Haram in Islam you can't drink a single drop age limit is out of question


 
The Shariat Court has asked for amendment in whopping punishment for drinking and NOT saying that its not haram


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## SpArK




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## Zarvan

President Camacho said:


> I strongly feel you are one of those who laugh at others' miseries simply because they go beyond your comprehension capacity.


 
Sir I laughed at your illogical comment the poison which we produce in our self doesn't make a person out of control he know what he is doing but a drunk don't knows and losses control on his brain and body man this is proved be science to man just go and ask a doctor and make sure he is not a muslims because you again will blame Muslims


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## Zarvan

Jana said:


> The Shariat Court has asked for amendment in whopping punishment for drinking and NOT saying that its not haram


 
Whopping punishment was decided by those who know Islam more than anyone else these cartoons are their to make corrupt Zardari happy


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## Vibs

Jana said:


> The Shariat Court has asked for amendment in whopping punishment for drinking and NOT saying that its not haram


Don't waste your energy here.Lost cause.



Zarvan said:


> Whopping punishment was decided by those who know Islam more than anyone else these cartoons are their to make corrupt Zardari happy


Didn't you have an id called Janubaba sometime back?


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## punit

imo drinking was quite popular during medival time among muslim nobles/kings.even in arabia. When it became a taboo?


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## President Camacho

Zarvan said:


> Sir I laughed at your illogical comment the poison which we produce in our self doesn't make a person out of control he know what he is doing but a drunk don't knows and losses control on his brain and body man this is proved be science to man just go and ask a doctor and make sure he is not a muslims because you again will blame Muslims


 
What post of mine makes me sound like some anti-Muslim guy who would go on to blame Muslims?

While there are many people whose bodies produce so much alcohol by fermenting sugar in their cells, that they do lose more control than normal drinkers. But that is not the question here. 

The question is - whether consumption of alcohol should be made punishable. If yes, then what kind of consumption, as SpArK already pointed out that people could inject themselves with alcohol. If all sorts of alcohol consumption is to be made punishable, then what about the bodies themselves producing alcohol? In certain people higher intake of sugar can also help raise alcohol level in the body and even induce drowsiness. 

I raised the point of body producing its own alcohol because there is utter lack of specificity in the law that is on debate here. I have seen similar ambiguities in other laws creating big problems for people in Pakistan, hence my skepticism and query.

Do let me know if you have any more doubts.


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## President Camacho

punit said:


> imo drinking was quite popular during medival time among muslim nobles/kings.even in arabia. When it became a taboo?


 
Was certainly not a taboo for Christ (Also a prophet in Islam) who turned water into wine - his last supper.


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## Zarvan

punit said:


> imo drinking was quite popular during medival time among muslim nobles/kings.even in arabia. When it became a taboo?


 
It was always in Haram


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## Spring Onion

Zarvan said:


> and that makes a person drunk


 
 no thats make a person an idiotly drunk


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## Zarvan

President Camacho said:


> Was certainly not a taboo for Christ (Also a prophet in Islam) who turned water into wine - his last supper.


 
Sorry Sir this never took place according to Islam Jesus or any other PROPHET PBUH never used drink Alcohal


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## Ahmad Abdullah Ravian

Unbelievable !!!! Is the word of ALLAH and PROPHET not enough for them, the worst ever Justice of Shuria Court ........

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## President Camacho

The insensitivity of some people here just amazes me!


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## Vibs

Zarvan said:


> It was always in Haram


 
You need to stop eating bread, taking medicines,especially those that are in liquid form and read about the entire history of the Abrahamic religion and their association with wine before Prophet Mohammed.


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## Ahmad Abdullah Ravian

President Camacho said:


> The insensitivity of some people here just amazes me!



No one wise in the whole world can declare Liquor a good thing whatsoever , It is the thing that brings the greatest troubles ............ along list.....

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## Ahmad Abdullah Ravian

Vibs said:


> You need to stop eating bread, taking medicines,especially those that are in liquid form and read about the entire history of the Abrahamic religion and their association with wine before Prophet Mohammed.


 
Most Muslims take every possible care in choosing any Product either perfumes , medicines ,cosmetics etc...... ( no Liquor , no Pig )

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## Zarvan

Vibs said:


> You need to stop eating bread, taking medicines,especially those that are in liquid form and read about the entire history of the Abrahamic religion and their association with wine before Prophet Mohammed.


 Sir we know Abrahamic Religions sir as per Islam no single PROPHET drank alchoal or allowed alcohal for its people they all prohibited it but people later change their teachings and made alcohal legal for themselves


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## President Camacho

Ahmad Abdullah Ravian said:


> No one wise in the whole world can declare Liquor a good thing whatsoever , It is the thing that brings the greatest troubles ............ along list.....


 
You should've sought an explanation before shooting in the dark. 

My post on insensitivity was directed at Jana and Zaravan who are not missing the chance to make fun of those who suffer from the conditions I mentioned in my previous posts.


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## Zarvan

President Camacho said:


> You should've sought an explanation before shooting in the dark.
> 
> My post on insensitivity was directed at Jana and Zaravan who are not missing the chance to make fun of those who suffer from the conditions I mentioned in my previous posts.


 
Explain insensitivity sir ?


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## Ahmad Abdullah Ravian

At one side are the lessons and teachings of 1 lac 24 thousand PROPHETS,PROPHET MUHAMMAD and All his Friends ( SAHABA) And above All the ultimate Power ALLAH and on the other is our ISLAMIC ( so-called) COURT . shame shame ..........
what non-Muslims do is non of our Business , they may drink all day no worry ,
But This is my and your country and we want the Word of our Creator honored more then anything else in world.

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## fd24

I dont personally drink or smoke. However when i went to Pakistan it was offered to me at the hotel i stayed in and i believe is readily available. I think we are all old enough to decide what we believe is good and bad for us and are answerable for our acts in the after life. What i am against is the hypocrisy when people in charge who will drink at home and outside pretend that it should be prohibited. Be transparent and that will benefit us all.
I suppose if it was available readily and legalized a tax could be put on it and that would help our economy. We know its their whether we like it or not so lets make financial gain from it.

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## Ahmad Abdullah Ravian

superkaif said:


> I dont personally drink or smoke. However when i went to Pakistan it was offered to me at the hotel i stayed in and i believe is readily available. I think we are all old enough to decide what we believe is good and bad for us and are answerable for our acts in the after life. What i am against is the hypocrisy when people in charge who will drink at home and outside pretend that it should be prohibited. Be transparent and that will benefit us all.
> I suppose if it was available readily and legalized a tax could be put on it and that would help our economy. We know its their whether we like it or not so lets make financial gain from it.


 
LoL , the court was forced by Finance ministry you say...... for the decision!!!!!


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## Abu Basit

Without any doubt, the Judges were drunk when they were passing the judgement otherwise it's very clear that there's a Punishment for drinking liqour, countless Hadiths proves this-


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## Ahmad Abdullah Ravian

I just remembered a very *Important incident* from Hazrat Umer R.A.W life , when he himself ordered his son to be lashed for drinking and he died facing the punishment , what you think Hazrat Umer R.A.W , the friend of Prophet Muhammad being so much caring for his LORD order!!!!

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## BanglaBhoot

Everything in moderation is a good thing. Excess is a sin.

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## 53fd

I say, let people sin & be answerable to their God, no one else. Simple.

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## DarK-LorD

According to Me:
Alcohol is Bad
Smoking is worse
Pornography is even worse
Drug Consumption is the Worst.


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## S.M.R

bilalhaider said:


> I say, let people sin & be answerable to their God, no one else. Simple.


 
Little correction bilal, as long as the sin involves the 'personal' himself, not others...

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## Zarvan

bilalhaider said:


> I say, let people sin & be answerable to their God, no one else. Simple.


 
Sorry Sir that doesn't work in Islam Islam if you breaks law of Islam and you will be punished

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## Vibs

S.M.R said:


> Little correction bilal, as long as the sin involves the 'personal' himself, not others...


Good point. 


Zarvan said:


> Sorry Sir that doesn't work in Islam Islam if you breaks law of Islam and you will be punished


 So you are saying that a human being has the right to punish a sinner before God does! In other words, the human beings who are punishing the sinner are carrying out God's work. In other words (your words) the interpretation is these people can interpret the Quran and Hadith however they like it and claim it to be true (which btw is supposed to be restricted to Godmen and Prophets). Isn't it unislamic to follow these people? Or do you have a bypass for this rule?


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## 53fd

S.M.R said:


> Little correction bilal, as long as the sin involves the 'personal' himself, not others...


 
Yes, you know I meant that. I was refering to the 'drinking' portion of the sinning.

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## muse

Differentiating between Sin and Crime, it seems to me, is something we can all take an interest in.m Sins, one is answerable to whatever Diety illuminates the confession one is persuaded by, Crime is the purview of the laws of man, not God.


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## BanglaBhoot

*Alcohol in the Quran

By Mesbahuddin Faruq*

Over the years, the detrimental effects of alcohol are well recorded even in the West. The highway statistics of deaths, because of the influence of alcohol, are astronomically high. The US Congress once voted for the prohibition of alcohol in 1917, when cars were rare on the streets. Organizations such as MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving) sprang up in recent years to elevate social conscience about the use of alcohol.

But alcohol as a source of intoxication is poles apart from its beneficial aspects. Quite often, alcohol is needed as preservative and solvent in medicines.

Nevertheless, very frequently, sermons are heard in the mosques to avoid those medicines that contain alcohol. Islamic journals could hardly be browsed without stumbling upon an article, advising the devout Muslims to check the alcohol and other ingredients in medicines. Even tooth paste - a cleaning substance, is not spared by the 'self-appointed' Islam-defenders.

Contrary to popular belief, a Koranic verse of a very revered Sura describes the alcoholic drinks as gifted with "good nourishment", and or, "wholesome drink". Naturally, this Koranic verse may inspire a few truth-seekers to trace their memories on the Koran, and relate the journals and news coverage, on the life-enhancing marvels of selective alcoholic drinks.

In reality, the medical researchers, in recent years, have confirmed that the taking of certain red wine in a prescribed limit has been proven to be highly deterrent against heart-attack. The effectiveness of alcohol, in the prevention of infection during oral surgery - and for that matter most surgery is indisputable. Nevertheless, the mullahs, the Imams, as well as those scholars, heavily brain-washed with the corrupted Islamic value based on the Hadith, are adamant in their belief that the Koran prohibits alcohol even as a life saver.

Does the Koran really define alcohol as 'haram'? Let us examine the source - the Koran, and keep the Hadith not to intervene in this issue.

The characteristics of haram or prohibitions found in the Koran usually begin with the expression "forbidden for you." In some occasions, it gives a strong warning of hellfire. For instance, about the prohibiton of swine meat, the Koran says:

"Forbidden unto you are carrion and blood and swine-flesh.... (5. Al Ma' idah: 3).

The Koranic prohibition about murder states:

"Whosoever slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is hellfire for ever..." (4. An-Nisa: 93).

There are five major verses in the Koran that deal with the alcoholic drinks. Selecting by their sequential positions in the Koran, the first one contains the most interesting dogma and will be addressed at the end of this topic.

The second verse advises the followers of Islam not to engage in prayers when they are under the influence of alcohol. The Koranic text is:

"O you who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when you are drunken, till you know that which you utter,. ...." (4. An-Nisa: 43).

Obviously, the expression "forbidden for you" is not found anywhere nearby. Nor the threat of 'hellfire' is directly or indirectly traceable in the verse. Rather, the deterrence applies to praying under alcoholic influence.

The third verse defines alcoholic drinks as "an infamy of Satan's handiwork." and indicates the believer that to succeed in life, it is advisable to stay away from alcoholic drinks. The Koranic text is:

"O you who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed." (5. Al Ma' idah: 90).

Strikingly, no word of forbiddance or the fear of hellfire is found here to classify alcohol as 'haram'. More to the point, the advice: "leave it aside in order that you may succeed" relates to earthy success in life. No doubt, career successes are often impaired and impeded because of the excessive influence of alcohol. Amazingly, the Koran places rightful emphasis on it.

The fourth verse relates to food in general including alcohol, and assures the believers not to be too concerned about consuming food, as long as they do 'good work'. The phrase 'good work' has been emphasized repeatedly. Here again the hellfire and words of forbiddance are missing. The verse states:

"There shall be no sin unto those who believe and do good works for what they may have consumed. So be mindful of your duty and do good works; and again: be mindful of your duty, and believe; and once again: be mindful of your duty, and do right. Allah loveth the good." (5. Al Ma' idah :93).

As stated earlier, the fifth verse relates to a significant Sura of the Koran. It describes the alcoholic drinks as gifted with "good nourishment", and or, "wholesome drink" (16.An Nahl : 67) The Koran, as translated, reads:

"And from the fruit of the palm and the grapes, you get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise (Yusuf Ali).

And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence you derive strong drink and good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense. (Pickthall).

Now we come to the first verse that we skipped in the beginning for analytical discussion. Here, alcoholic drinks are qualified as having both 'detrimental' and 'beneficial' aspects for the mankind. The verse places emphasis on the 'detriment' (interpreted as sin) than on the 'benefit'. This, in reality, is the status of alcohol even today and its interface with numerous life saving usage besides medicines. Incidentally, the word 'alcohol' is derived from the Arabic word 'alkuhul' and it originates during the Golden Periods of Islam.

What God addressed to prophet Muhammad in the Koran, can logically be understood as:

"They question you about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great abuse and usefulness for mankind; but the abusive side of them is greater than their usefulness." (2. Al-Baqarah :219).

It is worth mentioning here that the word "abuse" has been replaced as "sin" by the early promoters of Islam. It is really a mind-boggling issue whether the word "sin" is an appropriate opposite of "usefulness"?

Philologists or the experts of languages tell us that they find groups of languages that have similar root words and similar ways of expressing the same idea. They, however, find in other areas of languages, an altogether different grammatical scheme. With all these linguistic characteristics, the antonyms or the opposite words of all languages are the same. For instance the opposite of 'good' is 'bad' and definitely not 'dog'. Thus, when the opposite of 'usefulness' is arbitrarily made to mean 'sin', question arises as to the credence to the interpretation and its validity.

Despite having total absence of the fear of hellfire and prohibitive connotation, it is really a thought provoking question: Why alcohol is known as a prohibited (haram) drink in Islam? Perhaps, the answer is not apparent, rather buried under the rubbles of historical antiquities.

Unlike today, access to the Koran was limited to a few people in the early days of Islam because of the absence of paper and printing press. Paper, though an ancient commodity in China, came to the Arab's hand and subsequently to the West only during the tenth century. And not until Johann Gutenberg's invention of printing press in the fifteenth century, the mass production of any book was feasible, including the Koran.

Obviously, those religious elite, possessing copies of the Koran in parchment with golden calligraphy, had no rival in challenging their marinated interpretation, with their own recipe. Over the years, the unchallenged interpretations got ingrained in the religious belief and kept passing from generations to generations.

Unfortunately, that's the way the Koranic verses have been interpreted, translated and propagated. In other words, the Koranic interpreters had to bend the linguistic rules to suit the whim of Islam's promoters during those early days, closer to 300 years after Prophet Muhammad.

History tells us that the Seljuk warlords were mostly originated in Turkey, Azerbaijan, and Turkmenistan. Towards the collapsing days of the Abbasid dynasty, the Seljuks captured the administration of the Abbasid kingdom. The Abbasid Sultans remained happy only with a yearly allowance and hearing their names mentioned during the "Khutba" of the Friday-prayer.

After analysing the historical sequence of the Abbasid dynasty, some historians are of the opinion that it was the Seljuk generals who chopped-off alcoholic drinks for their soldiers in the battlefield. A few years before the Seljuks, the Buyids systematically had formulated their theological and judicial ideas. And more than ever the ulemas got prominance in functioning as the interpreters of Islamic laws.

The Seljuks, previously exposed to Christianity, were the new converts to Islam. It was a juncture of the time when the dominance of Bukhari's Hadith was more prevalent than the Koran. After all, when Bukhari insisted that his Hadith was no inferior to the Koran, it was normal for the Seljuks to place more importance on the Hadith - presumed to be the updated Islamic guidance than adhering to the Quran - viewed as old and outdated. The Hadith provided the Seljuks all the ammunition to rule the country in the false pretext of Muhammad's precedents.

In fact, most Sharia Laws were developed during this Seljuk period of Islam based on the Hadith. The dreadful powers of Fatwa, apostasy, stoning to death, honour killing, Jihad with a reward of 70 virgins in the heaven and many more were enshrined in the Hadith while they were totally absent in the Koran. Obviously it doesn't leave any room for the researchers to ponder other than to conclude that the prohibition of alcohol too was a strategy of the Seljuks. It was largely the Seljuks that tossed Islam from its original orbit.

It is an irony that the alcoholic drink had been a normal beverage during the time of the prophets prior to Muhammad. Wine was a significant item when Jesus was having his last supper with his twelve disciples. Even one of his miracles involved the making of wine for the guests in a party. In fact, the use of wine could be traced in the Old Testament to all the notable prophets including Moses, David and Solomon.

The Koran tells us that wine is one of the significant attributes and rewards in the Heaven. Yet the early Imams arbitrarily made it a forbidden drink despite the fact that neither the word, 'forbidden', nor the warning of 'hellfire' relates to alcohol in the verses of the Koran.

Presumably, it is a high time for the rational Muslims to ponder and read the verses of the Koran for themselves instead of relying solely on the hearsay. After all, the Islamic God Himself has declared the Koran as

"....a lecture in Arabic containing no crookedness.... (Aa-Zumar 28).

Could the Koran then be so complicated? Have the Muslims not been assured in the very preamble of Surah Al-Baqarah that the Koran is a "guidance"?

Misrepresented by the ill-educated mullahs, misinterpreting the message of the Koran for political and military purposes, the Muslims are perceived today as backward people with nothing to offer to the rest of the world. While God allows even the forbidden swine-flesh to save life, what could be more evil than avoiding medicines because of their alcoholic contents? 

Alcohol in the Quran | free-minds.org

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## Vibs

muse said:


> Differentiating between Sin and Crime, it seems to me, is something we can all take an interest in.m Sins, one is answerable to whatever Diety illuminates the confession one is persuaded by, Crime is the purview of the laws of man, not God.



Kind of gets murky here doesn't it. Sin for every religion is different.Crime is the same.How do you draw a line between the two if a society's law has a base in a particular religion?


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## divya

Zarvan said:


> Sorry Sir that doesn't work in Islam Islam if you breaks law of Islam and you will be punished


 
Sorry come again who are you? Mr. God....


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## Vibs

MBI Munshi said:


> *Alcohol in the Quran
> 
> By Mesbahuddin Faruq*
> 
> ................
> Does the Koran really define alcohol as 'haram'? Let us examine the source - the Koran, and keep the Hadith not to intervene in this issue.
> 
> .....


 
I'm normally at loggerheads with your posts.But this was really good. Thank you for sharing.

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## Imran Khan

ok we can agree on wine zones it will be better .but BTW we all know getting wine wodka bear is easy in pakistan as we buy cigarettes .so were the hell is ban ?


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## muse

> Sin for every religion is different.Crime is the same.How do you draw a line between the two if a society's law has a base in a particular religion?



Indeed Sin may well be different - Confessions are not jail houses, as a voluntarily accepted act of faith, a conscious Muslim, chooses to fast, this is taken voluntarily by the adherent - no law, that I am aware of, can force you to fast.

But some Sins are also crimes? What then?? Yeah, what then? As Bilal has already offered, the laws of God, God is the adjudicator for, the laws of man, men are adjudicators.

Munshi Sahab, that was a sixer -- I can see the lunes going to the source (mullah online) even now


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## Burger Boy

Zarvan said:


> Traitors of Islam Alcohal is a crime and its punishment is 80 lashes in Islam and these traitors are their to make their corrupt masters happy


 
They never said it's not haram but said that it shouldn't be punished by whipping, which is a good move as whipping is a barbaric punishment which has no place in modern society.


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## Burger Boy

What's the purpose of the Shariat Court anyway?

Are its decrees supposed to be higher than the supreme court.

I believe a few months ago, they wanted to ban the women's protection act because it was unislamic and spread obscenity and vulgarity.


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## muse

d1rty Minded said:


> What's the purpose of the Shariat Court anyway?
> 
> Are its decrees supposed to be higher than the supreme court.
> 
> I believe a few months ago, they wanted to ban the women's protection act because it was unislamic and spread obscenity and vulgarity.



part of the whole islamization project - can we be arbi now?


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## Burger Boy

muse said:


> part of the whole islamization project - can we be arbi now?


 
If we have to be arbi, then I hope we can be like Levantine Arabs rather than Gulf Arabs.


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## muse

Lets just be Pakistani - it suits us best.

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## Abu Basit

bilalhaider said:


> I say, let people sin & be answerable to their God, no one else. Simple.


 
this happens only on the Planet of Apes-


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## Ahmad

Abu Basit said:


> this happens only on the Planet of Apes-


 
so, it means the apes are better than the humen then.

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## Abu Basit

Ahmad said:


> so, it means the apes are better than the humen then.


 
obviously Apes will consider themselves better than humans--

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## mughaljee

Judge Sahib Nay Khud Pee Lee Ho gi, Jo Aasa Fasla Diya Hay.

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## mughaljee

bilalhaider said:


> I say, let people sin & be answerable to their God, no one else. Simple.



But
With your Sins, Please Take a journey towards jungles & mountains, 
Not in-front of Peoples.

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## Zarvan

Vibs said:


> Good point.
> 
> So you are saying that a human being has the right to punish a sinner before God does! In other words, the human beings who are punishing the sinner are carrying out God's work. In other words (your words) the interpretation is these people can interpret the Quran and Hadith however they like it and claim it to be true (which btw is supposed to be restricted to Godmen and Prophets). Isn't it unislamic to follow these people? Or do you have a bypass for this rule?


because ALLAH has ordered to punish criminals and they have committed a crime in Islamic society so for committing a crime they would be punished


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## Zarvan

Ahmad said:


> so, it means the apes are better than the humen then.


 Sir in Islam criminals have to be punished in Animals criminals are not punished common sense


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## Zarvan

d1rty Minded said:


> They never said it's not haram but said that it shouldn't be punished by whipping, which is a good move as whipping is a barbaric punishment which has no place in modern society.


 Sorry sir Whipping is not barbaric because ALLAH has told this punishment so its not barbaric its complete justice and this modern society of your only wants to give right to criminals and abusers but not for victims so don't tell about this corrupt modern society which has humiliated humanity


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## Vibs

Zarvan said:


> Sorry sir Whipping is not barbaric because ALLAH has told this punishment so its not barbaric its complete justice and this modern society of your only wants to give right to criminals and abusers but not for victims so don't tell about this corrupt modern society which has humiliated humanity


 Now I'm convinced. You are Janubaba with a new id.


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## muse

Vibs said:


> Now I'm convinced. You are Janubaba with a new id.


 

It's not new id it's multiple accounts


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## Ahmad

Zarvan said:


> Sir in Islam criminals have to be punished in Animals criminals are not punished common sense


 
you have got a long way to understand what people exaclty mean here.

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## Zarvan

Ahmad said:


> you have got a long way to understand what people exaclty mean here.


 I know what it mean here in Islam drinking Alcohal is a crime and person who does it is a criminal and his punishment is lashes simple as that


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## Dr. NooB NinjA

Just let people decide what they should drink or eat...... 
After all its their life....
And i am absolutely pro alcohol personally....   It totally makes my weekend.. .....


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## untitled

Zarvan said:


> I know what it mean here in Islam drinking Alcohal is a crime and person who does it is a criminal and his punishment is lashes simple as that



Where does it say that alcohol consumers should be lashed ?


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## untitled

Dr. NooB NinjA said:


> Just let people decide what they should drink or eat......
> After all its their life...................



Does that include drugs, toxins and poisons ?


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## T-Rex

Jana said:


> Shariat court rules whipping for drinking un-Islamic
> 
> ISLAMABAD, May 28:* The Federal Shariat Court (FSC) has declared whipping for the offence of drinking as un-Islamic and directed the government to amend the law to make the offence bailable.*
> 
> A full-bench of the FSC comprising Chief Justice Haziqul Khairi, Justice Salahuddin Mirza and Justice Fida Mohammad Khan gave the ruling on Thursday after hearing the arguments that the Holy Quran asks Muslims to stay away from liquor but does not specifically declares it Haram, or prohibited.
> 
> The FSC had taken up a Shariat petition of Dr M. Aslam Khaki, who had challenged different provisions of the Prohibition Order (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance 1979, in which drinking was provided as Hadd, prescribing 80 lashes as punishment for the offence.
> 
> Pleading the case, Dr Aslam Khaki argued before the FSC that the punishment of 80 whips was neither provided by the Holy Quran nor Sunnah, hence the offence should not be termed as Hadd. Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him), he recalled, had awarded only 40 sticks that too of a date tree to the offender, but not 80 whips.
> 
> Article 8 of the Prohibition Order (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance 1979 declares drinking liable to Hadd and suggests that whoever being an adult Muslim drinks intoxicating liquor by mouth is guilty of drinking liable to Hadd and shall be punished with whipping numbering 80 whips.
> 
> Islam had declared some specific offences as Hadd which are heinous, but the offence of drinking is not a heinous crime, he argued.Though the Holy Quran has attributed drinking as both benefit and also Haram, but declared Haram is more than its benefit. Thus the offence of drinking is not absolute Haram.
> 
> He contended that Article 25 of the ordinance which provided punishment for attempt to drinking was violative of the injunction of Islam as neither Holy Quran nor Sunnah had provided any punishment for it.
> 
> If a person makes an attempt to drink but withdraws, he should be appreciated but not be punished, he said, adding intention of commission of crime without any physical act was not a crime.
> 
> The court agreeing with the petitioner declared the provisions of 80 lashes as un-Islamic and directed the federal government to amend the relevant laws to replace the punishment of whipping with sticks within six months by making it bailable offence.
> 
> In case the government failed to amend the Hadd law, the punishment will cease to exist and become void, the judgment held.
> 
> 
> 
> Shariat court rules whipping for drinking un-Islamic
> 
> 
> PAKISTAN OBSERVER: Drinking liqour is not Haram - Federal Shariat Court
> 
> Shariat court rules whipping for drinking un-Islamic


*
Drinking alchohol is clearly forbidden in Islam, but the secular leaders of Pakistan regularly take it, so they have decided to re-interpret the Qu'ran to meet their requirement. Next, if they try to re-write the Qu'ran I won't be surprised. The secular leaders of the Muslim countries are rotten to the core.*

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## Zarvan

varigeo said:


> Where does it say that alcohol consumers should be lashed ?


 
As it is haram in Islam Islamic Government can decide punishment for it that was exactly done by HZARAT UMAR RA who ordered lashing of his own son and he died because of those 80 lashed


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## untitled

T-Rex said:


> ...................



Alcohol consumption clearly legal until the 1980s .... before ZIA....
Then it was banned but the number of people drinking has not decreased


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## Zarvan

varigeo said:


> Alcohol consumption clearly legal until the 1980s .... before ZIA....
> Then it was banned but the number of people drinking has not decreased


 
If some Haram was allowed it doesn't make it HALAL HARAM remains HARAM we have to implement the law and punish those who are caught drinking without being biased or protecting the rich and corrupt elite class of Paksitan

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## fd24

Zarvan said:


> I know what it mean here in Islam drinking Alcohal is a crime and person who does it is a criminal and his punishment is lashes simple as that


 
We live in a society and modern world where there are other means of punishment. I think we need to be flexible and realize that we are all answerable for our sins. Zarvan sometimes we must change to accommodate a more humane environment to live. Ive already said on here i don't drink but i think we are all adults and should be allowed to live our own lives the way we want.


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## muse

Muttawa - in the how'se


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## untitled

Zarvan said:


> If some Haram was allowed it doesn't make it HALAL HARAM remains HARAM we have to implement the law and punish those who are caught drinking without being biased or protecting the rich and corrupt elite class of Paksitan


 
But the law is already in place ... it was introduced by the elite class.... nothing happened


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## Dr. NooB NinjA

varigeo said:


> Does that include drugs, toxins and poisons ?



Dont take what i said literally.... Alcohol cannot be compared to narcotics ever... They are in totally different league....
Believe me, Drug addicts are worse than alcoholics socially.. I Have personally seen addicts in rehab being a doctor.. They cannot function properly in a sane and peaceful society, but moderate alcoholics can.. And i absolutely share the idea that if u have had alcohol, there are some basics rules that u should follow, like not drinking and driving, not bothering others etc etc..


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## Zarvan

superkaif said:


> We live in a society and modern world where there are other means of punishment. I think we need to be flexible and realize that we are all answerable for our sins. Zarvan sometimes we must change to accommodate a more humane environment to live. Ive already said on here i don't drink but i think we are all adults and should be allowed to live our own lives the way we want.


 Sorry Sir Islam is meant for all times and its orders will remain valid till the last day of the earth this modern world of your only talks about the right of the one is a criminal but not of victims sir Lashes is the punishment told by GOD no one is smarter than the GOD so rules of Islam will remain valid for always and they will be implemented sooner or later and Alcohal is ha ram and will remain haram and the creator of humans knows better that what is good and what is bad for humans sir no sir if you are muslims you have to follow rules of Islam and Islam government has to and will force laws of Islam this is not modern world this is a corrupt world and that is why people are coming to Islam in the whole world


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## T-Rex

*In this age when drinking alcohol and smoking is universally seen as harmful not only to an individual but also to the society in general, we see an attempt by the Muslim leaders in Pakistan to make it halal. May Allah save the Muslim world from this kind of 'Muslim' leaders.*


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## Zarvan

varigeo said:


> But the law is already in place ... it was introduced by the elite class.... nothing happened


 
Law should be implemented without and biased and whoever is caught should be punished in public that is the order of Islam people will not do it ALLAH will make them a part of history and will be not remembered in good terms


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## Devil Soul

*Drinking Alcohol is HARAM ... end of story *

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## untitled

Dr. NooB NinjA said:


> Alcohol cannot be compared to narcotics ever... They are in totally different league....


 
Yet so many people die while under the influence while driving

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## Zarvan

T-Rex said:


> *In this age when drinking alcohol and smoking is universally seen as harmful not only to an individual but also to the society in general, we see an attempt by the Muslim leaders in Pakistan to make it halal. May Allah save the Muslim world from this kind of 'Muslim' leaders.*


 
Brother these leaders are slave and puppet of west they worship these false GODS and take money from them they have and secular traitors have tried their best make changes in Islam but they can't because ALLAH is protecting it

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## untitled

Devil Soul said:


> *Drinking Alcohol is HARAM ... end of story *



Yet the Islamic Republic is full of Alcoholics


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## Zarvan

varigeo said:


> Yet the Islamic Republic is full of Alcoholics


 
Not full of but their are some who drink it


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## untitled

Zarvan said:


> Not full of but their are some who drink it


 
Even those "some" constitute a very large number


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## S.M.R

Even the alcohol is regarded as Najis.... like urine, semen, potty etc.

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## Devil Soul

varigeo said:


> Yet the Islamic Republic is full of Alcoholics



*&#8220;The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: &#8216;If you have no shame, do as you wish.&#8217;" (al-Bukhari) *

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## JonAsad

superkaif said:


> I dont personally drink or smoke. However when i went to Pakistan it was offered to me at the hotel i stayed in and i believe is readily available. I think we are all old enough to decide what we believe is good and bad for us and are answerable for our acts in the after life. What i am against is the hypocrisy when people in charge who will drink at home and outside pretend that it should be prohibited. Be transparent and that will benefit us all.
> I suppose if it was available readily and legalized a tax could be put on it and that would help our economy. We know its their whether we like it or not so lets make financial gain from it.


 
of all the other things- the tax collected from alcoholic drinks will revive our economy- joke of the century-


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## FreekiN

JonAsad said:


> of all the other things- the tax collected from alcoholic drinks will revive our economy- joke of the century-


 
Works on ciggs.


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## sur

muse said:


> Drunk in public becomes a legal matter - *Drinking in public is not a legal matter - would you agree*?


No i don't agree,,

*for example in Canada, u can NOT even carry a bottle of wine "openly" it has to be covered, something like that, Now that is example of a country that has allowed drinking but banned doing it openly, or even carrying it openly ...
*


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## Machoman

Ab kayaamat door nai maray dost. In few days they will say even prostitution is not haraam, Zina kari is not haram, eating pork is not haram. let see

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## sur

varigeo said:


> *Where does it say *that alcohol consumers *should be lashed* ?


One can argue nitty gritty if one cannot absorb, but here it says *about lashes*... 




sur said:


> Those benefits attributed to small-amounts of Red-wine etc are actually anti-Oxident benefits, & NOT because of alcohol part of it...
> Those anti-Oxident benefits can be had even better by ingesting red-grapes instead of red-wine...
> -
> --------------------------
> -
> *As to third point...
> & as answer to that ruling given in OP... beating is NOT un-islamic... thou one can argue whether beating could be with "lashes" or not*
> 
> *Bukhari :: Book 3 :: Volume 38 :: Hadith 509*
> Narrated 'Uqba bin Al-Harith:
> 
> When An-Nuaman or his son was brought *in a state of drunkenness, Allah's Apostle ordered all those who were present in the house to beat him*. I was one of those who beat him. We beat him *with shoes and palm-leaf stalks*.
> 
> *Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 81 :: Hadith 765*
> Narrated 'Uqba bin Al-Harith:
> 
> An-Nu'man or the son of An-Nu'man was brought to the Prophet on a charge of drunkenness. So the Prophet ordered all the men present in the house, to beat him. So all of them beat him, and I was also one of them who beat him with shoes.
> 
> 
> *Abu-Dawud :: Book 38 : Hadith 4474*
> Narrated AbdurRahman ibn Azhar:
> 
> I saw the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) on the morning of the conquest of Mecca when I was a young boy. He was walking among the people, seeking the camp of Khalid ibn al-Walid. A man who had drunk wine was brought (before him) and he ordered them (to beat him). So they beat him with what they had in their hands. Some struck him with whips, some with sticks and some with sandals. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) threw some dust on his face.
> 
> When a man who had drunk wine was brought before *AbuBakr, he asked them (i.e. the people) about the number of beatings which they gave him. They numbered it forty. So AbuBakr gave him forty lashes.*
> 
> When Umar came to power, Khalid ibn al-Walid wrote to him: The people have become addicted to drinking wine and they look down upon the prescribed punishment and its penalty.
> 
> He said: They are with you, ask them. The immigrants who embraced Islam in the beginning were with him. He asked them and they agreed on the fact that (a drunkard) should be given eighty lashes.
> 
> Ali said: When a man drinks wine, he tells lies. I, therefore, think that he should be prescribed punishment that is prescribed for telling lies..
> 
> 
> *Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 81 :: Hadith 770*
> Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid:
> 
> We used to strike the drunks with our hands, shoes, clothes (by twisting it into the shape of lashes) during the lifetime of the Prophet, Abu Bakr and the early part of 'Umar's caliphate. But during the last period of 'Umar's caliphate, *he used to give the drunk forty lashes;* and when drunks became mischievous and disobedient, he used to scourge them eighty lashes.
> 
> *Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 104*
> Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah observed: The fornicator who fornicates is not a believer so long as he commits it and no thief who steals is a believer as long as he commits theft, and* no drunkard who drinks wine is a believer as long as he drinks it. *'Abdul-Malik b. Abi Bakr' narrated this on the authority of Abu Bakr b. Abdur-Rahman b. Harith and then said: Abu Huraira made this addition: No plunderer who plunders a valuable thing that attracts the attention of people is a believer so long as he commits this act.
> 
> *BUT beating should NOT be so much for person to die...*
> *Muslim :: Book 17 : Hadith 4232*
> Ali reported: If I impose Hadd on anyone, and he (in course of punish ment) dies, I would not mind except in case of a drunkard. If he dies. I would pay indemnity for him because the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has laid down no rule for it.

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## VCheng

Machoman said:


> Ab kayaamat door nai maray dost. In few days they will say even prostitution is not haraam, Zina kari is not haram, eating pork is not haram. let see




December 2012?


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## BATMAN

So far............ no reference from Quran!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shall i assume hadith is in conflict with Quran? !!!!

If you have brains than stop searching your answers in Hadith without referring to Quran.

*Fact is that smoking one pack of cigarette is much more injurious to health than having one peg of wine.*

How do you weigh this fact in light of Quran and prevailing social laws????????????

I tell you one easy way.... take a PDF Quran and search for key words... i.e. 'Haram'

Remember 99% of all Hadith Mullahs in Pakistan are product of foreign intelligence agencies.

Recognize your enemies....... recognize who want to eliminate your generation........... *'in ki nasal ko khatam kardo'* !!!!!!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

while i know why drinking is ''bad'' --- i dont think it ever would make sense to issue physical threats to people over partaking in such activity

if people wanna drink, let them....they dont, they dont....

let God be the final judge...

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## somebozo

When Baghdad was being sacked by Halaku, the scholars were busy discussing if Jabriel could pass through needle eye.
or
Nero was playing flute as Rome was burning.

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## sur

BATMAN said:


> So far............ *no reference from Quran!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> Shall i assume hadith is in conflict with Quran? !!!! *You wish !!!*
> 
> If you have brains than stop searching your answers in Hadith *without referring to Quran*.






> *Fact is that smoking one pack of cigarette is much more injurious to health than having one peg of wine.*
> ...


As I said before at least twice, you can chose to kill urself & ur family who inhale ur *smoke*, for all anyone cares,,,
But when something affects *society* THEN it becomes a matter where coersion is justified ...

& as to ur picking contradiction b/w hadees & Quran...:-

*Q:5:91:-*
&#1575;&#1746; &#1604;&#1608;&#1711;&#1608; &#1580;&#1608; &#1575;&#1740;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1604;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746; &#1729;&#1608;&#1548; &#1740;&#1729; *&#1588;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576; *&#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1580;&#1608;&#1575; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1740;&#1729; &#1570;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1662;&#1575;&#1606;&#1587;&#1746;&#1548; &#1740;&#1729; &#1587;&#1576; &#1711;&#1606;&#1583;&#1746; *&#1588;&#1740;&#1591;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740; &#1705;&#1575;&#1605; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722;&#1548; *&#1575;&#1606; &#1587;&#1746; &#1662;&#1585;&#1729;&#1740;&#1586; &#1705;&#1585;&#1608;&#1548; &#1575;&#1605;&#1740;&#1583; &#1729;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1601;&#1604;&#1575;&#1581; &#1606;&#1589;&#1740;&#1576; &#1729;&#1608;&#1711;&#1740; (&#1641;&#1632 &#1588;&#1740;&#1591;&#1575;&#1606; &#1578;&#1608; &#1740;&#1729; &#1670;&#1575;&#1729;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729; *&#1588;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576; *&#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1580;&#1608;&#1574;&#1746; &#1705;&#1746; &#1584;&#1585;&#1740;&#1593;&#1729; &#1587;&#1746; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1583;&#1585;&#1605;&#1740;&#1575;&#1606; &#1593;&#1583;&#1575;&#1608;&#1578; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1576;&#1594;&#1590; &#1672;&#1575;&#1604; &#1583;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1705;&#1740; &#1740;&#1575;&#1583; &#1587;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1606;&#1605;&#1575;&#1586; &#1587;&#1746; &#1585;&#1608;&#1705; &#1583;&#1746; &#1662;&#1726;&#1585; &#1705;&#1740;&#1575; &#1578;&#1605; &#1575;&#1606; &#1670;&#1740;&#1586;&#1608;&#1722; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1575;&#1586; &#1585;&#1729;&#1608; &#1711;&#1746;&#1567; (&#1641;&#1633

*2:219:-*
 &#1662;&#1608;&#1670;&#1726;&#1578;&#1746; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722;: *&#1588;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576; *&#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1580;&#1608;&#1574;&#1746; &#1705;&#1575; &#1705;&#1740;&#1575; &#1581;&#1705;&#1605; &#1729;&#1746;&#1567; &#1705;&#1729;&#1608;: &#1575;&#1606; &#1583;&#1608;&#1606;&#1608;&#1722; &#1670;&#1740;&#1586;&#1608;&#1722; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1576;&#1681;&#1740; &#1582;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576;&#1740; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1711;&#1585;&#1670;&#1729; &#1575;&#1606; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1604;&#1608;&#1711;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1746; &#1604;&#1740;&#1746; &#1705;&#1670;&#1726; &#1605;&#1606;&#1575;&#1601;&#1593; &#1576;&#1726;&#1740; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722;&#1548; &#1605;&#1711;&#1585; &#1575;&#1606; &#1705;&#1575; &#1711;&#1606;&#1575;&#1729; &#1575;&#1615;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1601;&#1575;&#1574;&#1583;&#1746; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1729;&#1578; &#1586;&#1740;&#1575;&#1583;&#1729; &#1729;&#1746;

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## VCheng

sur said:


> As I said before at least twice, you can chose to kill urself & ur family who inhale ur *smoke*, for all anyone cares,,,
> But when something affects *society* THEN it becomes a matter where coersion is justified ...
> 
> & as to ur picking contradiction b/w hadees & Quran...:-
> 
> *Q:5:91:-*
> &#1575;&#1746; &#1604;&#1608;&#1711;&#1608; &#1580;&#1608; &#1575;&#1740;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1604;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746; &#1729;&#1608;&#1548; &#1740;&#1729; *&#1588;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576; *&#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1580;&#1608;&#1575; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1740;&#1729; &#1570;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1662;&#1575;&#1606;&#1587;&#1746;&#1548; &#1740;&#1729; &#1587;&#1576; &#1711;&#1606;&#1583;&#1746; *&#1588;&#1740;&#1591;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740; &#1705;&#1575;&#1605; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722;&#1548; *&#1575;&#1606; &#1587;&#1746; &#1662;&#1585;&#1729;&#1740;&#1586; &#1705;&#1585;&#1608;&#1548; &#1575;&#1605;&#1740;&#1583; &#1729;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1601;&#1604;&#1575;&#1581; &#1606;&#1589;&#1740;&#1576; &#1729;&#1608;&#1711;&#1740; (&#1641;&#1632 &#1588;&#1740;&#1591;&#1575;&#1606; &#1578;&#1608; &#1740;&#1729; &#1670;&#1575;&#1729;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729; *&#1588;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576; *&#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1580;&#1608;&#1574;&#1746; &#1705;&#1746; &#1584;&#1585;&#1740;&#1593;&#1729; &#1587;&#1746; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1583;&#1585;&#1605;&#1740;&#1575;&#1606; &#1593;&#1583;&#1575;&#1608;&#1578; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1576;&#1594;&#1590; &#1672;&#1575;&#1604; &#1583;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1705;&#1740; &#1740;&#1575;&#1583; &#1587;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1606;&#1605;&#1575;&#1586; &#1587;&#1746; &#1585;&#1608;&#1705; &#1583;&#1746; &#1662;&#1726;&#1585; &#1705;&#1740;&#1575; &#1578;&#1605; &#1575;&#1606; &#1670;&#1740;&#1586;&#1608;&#1722; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1575;&#1586; &#1585;&#1729;&#1608; &#1711;&#1746;&#1567; (&#1641;&#1633
> 
> 2:219:-
> &#1662;&#1608;&#1670;&#1726;&#1578;&#1746; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722;: *&#1588;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576; *&#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1580;&#1608;&#1574;&#1746; &#1705;&#1575; &#1705;&#1740;&#1575; &#1581;&#1705;&#1605; &#1729;&#1746;&#1567; &#1705;&#1729;&#1608;: &#1575;&#1606; &#1583;&#1608;&#1606;&#1608;&#1722; &#1670;&#1740;&#1586;&#1608;&#1722; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1576;&#1681;&#1740; &#1582;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576;&#1740; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1711;&#1585;&#1670;&#1729; &#1575;&#1606; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1604;&#1608;&#1711;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1746; &#1604;&#1740;&#1746; &#1705;&#1670;&#1726; &#1605;&#1606;&#1575;&#1601;&#1593; &#1576;&#1726;&#1740; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722;&#1548; &#1605;&#1711;&#1585; &#1575;&#1606; &#1705;&#1575; &#1711;&#1606;&#1575;&#1729; &#1575;&#1615;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1601;&#1575;&#1574;&#1583;&#1746; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1729;&#1578; &#1586;&#1740;&#1575;&#1583;&#1729; &#1729;&#1746;



Is there a difference between "parhaiz kero" (to avoid) and "mana he" (forbidden)?


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Devil Soul said:


> *Drinking Alcohol is HARAM ... end of story *



A Fatwa?

No reasoning necessary?


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## Imran Khan

S.M.R said:


> Even the alcohol is regarded as Najis.... like urine, semen, potty etc.


 
yuuuuuuukkkkkk damn you destroy it .it was our soft drink dear . now with every bottle buy cardamom too lolz


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## BATMAN

VCheng said:


> Is there a difference between "parhaiz kero" (to avoid) and "mana he" (forbidden)?


 
Bribery is forbidden clearly, profiteering is forbidden clearly, hoarding is forbidden clearly and much more than what you described above.

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## sur

VCheng said:


> Is there a difference between "parhaiz kero" (to avoid) and "mana he" (forbidden)?


 
Yes there IS a defference ... But again Alcohol is well known carcinogen, state can chose to ban it for medical reasons as well, & as said before to protect society from incidences of traffic accidents, rape, murders...

& then "_Shaitaanee Kaaam_".... !!!


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## VCheng

sur said:


> Yes there IS a defference ... But again Alcohol is well known carcinogen, state can chose to ban it for medical reasons as well, & as said before to protect society from incidences of traffic accidents, rape, murders...



So it is "not banned" by the Quran, but advisable to "avoid it (in excess)"?


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## BATMAN

sur said:


> As I said before at least twice, you can chose to kill urself & ur family who inhale ur *smoke*, for all anyone cares,,,
> But when something affects *society* THEN it becomes a matter where coersion is justified ...
> 
> & as to ur picking contradiction b/w hadees & Quran...:-
> 
> *Q:5:91:-*
> &#1575;&#1746; &#1604;&#1608;&#1711;&#1608; &#1580;&#1608; &#1575;&#1740;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1604;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746; &#1729;&#1608;&#1548; &#1740;&#1729; *&#1588;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576; *&#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1580;&#1608;&#1575; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1740;&#1729; &#1570;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1662;&#1575;&#1606;&#1587;&#1746;&#1548; &#1740;&#1729; &#1587;&#1576; &#1711;&#1606;&#1583;&#1746; *&#1588;&#1740;&#1591;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740; &#1705;&#1575;&#1605; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722;&#1548; *&#1575;&#1606; &#1587;&#1746; &#1662;&#1585;&#1729;&#1740;&#1586; &#1705;&#1585;&#1608;&#1548; &#1575;&#1605;&#1740;&#1583; &#1729;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1601;&#1604;&#1575;&#1581; &#1606;&#1589;&#1740;&#1576; &#1729;&#1608;&#1711;&#1740; (&#1641;&#1632 &#1588;&#1740;&#1591;&#1575;&#1606; &#1578;&#1608; &#1740;&#1729; &#1670;&#1575;&#1729;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729; *&#1588;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576; *&#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1580;&#1608;&#1574;&#1746; &#1705;&#1746; &#1584;&#1585;&#1740;&#1593;&#1729; &#1587;&#1746; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1583;&#1585;&#1605;&#1740;&#1575;&#1606; &#1593;&#1583;&#1575;&#1608;&#1578; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1576;&#1594;&#1590; &#1672;&#1575;&#1604; &#1583;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1705;&#1740; &#1740;&#1575;&#1583; &#1587;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1606;&#1605;&#1575;&#1586; &#1587;&#1746; &#1585;&#1608;&#1705; &#1583;&#1746; &#1662;&#1726;&#1585; &#1705;&#1740;&#1575; &#1578;&#1605; &#1575;&#1606; &#1670;&#1740;&#1586;&#1608;&#1722; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1575;&#1586; &#1585;&#1729;&#1608; &#1711;&#1746;&#1567; (&#1641;&#1633
> 
> *2:219:-*
> &#1662;&#1608;&#1670;&#1726;&#1578;&#1746; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722;: *&#1588;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576; *&#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1580;&#1608;&#1574;&#1746; &#1705;&#1575; &#1705;&#1740;&#1575; &#1581;&#1705;&#1605; &#1729;&#1746;&#1567; &#1705;&#1729;&#1608;: &#1575;&#1606; &#1583;&#1608;&#1606;&#1608;&#1722; &#1670;&#1740;&#1586;&#1608;&#1722; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1576;&#1681;&#1740; &#1582;&#1585;&#1575;&#1576;&#1740; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1711;&#1585;&#1670;&#1729; &#1575;&#1606; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1604;&#1608;&#1711;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1746; &#1604;&#1740;&#1746; &#1705;&#1670;&#1726; &#1605;&#1606;&#1575;&#1601;&#1593; &#1576;&#1726;&#1740; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722;&#1548; &#1605;&#1711;&#1585; &#1575;&#1606; &#1705;&#1575; &#1711;&#1606;&#1575;&#1729; &#1575;&#1615;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1601;&#1575;&#1574;&#1583;&#1746; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1729;&#1578; &#1586;&#1740;&#1575;&#1583;&#1729; &#1729;&#1746;


 
Is smoking Halal???? I need to reconfirm your quotes ... so give me clear references. Chapter and verse....


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## Tiki Tam Tam

sur said:


> Yes there IS a defference ... But again Alcohol is well known carcinogen, state can chose to ban it for medical reasons as well, & as said before to protect society from incidences of traffic accidents, rape, murders...



Smog, fog and pollution is also harmful to society.

So can it be banned?


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## BATMAN

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> A Fatwa?
> 
> No reasoning necessary?


 
You seemed to be more concerned about Fatwas but i can understand your ignorance...


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## sur

BATMAN said:


> Is smoking Halal???? I need to reconfirm your quotes ... *so give me clear references. Chapter and verse*....




they r there *5:91 & 2:219*...!!!




Tiki Tam Tam said:


> *Smog, fog and pollution *is also harmful to society.
> 
> So can it be banned?


go ahead ban them in india...


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## Tiki Tam Tam

BATMAN said:


> You seemed to be more concerned about Fatwas but i can understand your ignorance...



I am.

Because it is a diktat.

Wiki states

According to the usul al-fiqh (principles of jurisprudence), the fatw&#257; must meet the following conditions in order to be valid:

The fatw&#257; is in line with relevant legal proofs, deduced from Qur'anic verses and ahadith; provided the hadith was not later abrogated by Muhammad.
It is issued by a person (or a board) having due knowledge and sincerity of heart;
It is free from individual opportunism, and not depending on political servitude;
It is adequate with the needs of the contemporary world.

Therefore, I was wondering if the poster has considered the same before foreclosing any options.


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## VCheng

BATMAN said:


> Is smoking Halal???? I need to reconfirm your quotes ... so give me clear references. Chapter and verse....



I think they are Sura 5, Verse 91 and Sura 2, Verse 219.


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## ashokdeiva

Why follow religion when it comes to habbits that are haraam for your body.
Drinking excesivly will result in Liver and Spleen damage, Smoking will result in resoiratory damage. 
Drinking can be accepted when it is used as a apitizing agent or a heating agent in case of cold countries.
So any thing that is excessive is haraam


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## Tiki Tam Tam

sur said:


> they r there *5:91 & 2:219*...!!!
> 
> 
> 
> go ahead ban them in india...



I was replying to your post.

Was it on India?

In India drinking is allowed.

Heard the ghazals?

They are mostly on _jam_.


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## sur

ashokdeiva said:


> Why follow religion when it comes to habbits that are *hallal *for your body.
> Drinking excesivly will result in Liver and Spleen damage, Smoking will result in resoiratory damage.
> Drinking can be accepted when it is used as a apitizing agent or a heating agent in case of cold countries.
> So any thing that is excessive is *Hallal*


 
I think u r using the wrong word ... u probably wantd to say "haraam" !!!


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## sur

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> I was replying to your post.
> 
> Was it on India?


 
That was satire, i mean, *CAN U BAN SMOG, FOG *!!!


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## ashokdeiva

sur said:


> I think u r using the wrong word ... u probably wantd to say "haraam" !!!


 
sorry mate, ill edit the post


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## My-Analogous

In Sahi Bukari it is written that "Hur nasha danay wali cheez haram hay".


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## BATMAN

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> I am.
> 
> Because it is a diktat.
> 
> Wiki states
> 
> According to the usul al-fiqh (principles of jurisprudence), the fatw&#257; must meet the following conditions in order to be valid:
> 
> The fatw&#257; is in line with relevant legal proofs, deduced from Qur'anic verses and ahadith; provided the hadith was not later abrogated by Muhammad.
> It is issued by a person (or a board) having due knowledge and sincerity of heart;
> It is free from individual opportunism, and not depending on political servitude;
> It is adequate with the needs of the contemporary world.
> 
> Therefore, I was wondering if the poster has considered the same before foreclosing any options.


 
Well Well..........You know Islam more than i know!!!!
Than you must have also came across the word 'Haram' in Quran.
The debate here is is about Haram.... which are clearly mentioned in Quran...

I will never debate on Hadith because most of them are made in UK.


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## VCheng

ghazaliy2k said:


> In Sahi Bukari it is written that "Hur nasha danay wali cheez haram hay".



But NOT the Quran?


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## BATMAN

ghazaliy2k said:


> In Sahi Bukari it is written that "Hur nasha danay wali cheez haram hay".


 
Why Quran did not mention the word Haram?

Dear... i need reference from Quran. I have not yet reconfirmed above quoted reference from Quran, but all what i understand from above quote is that every thing which keep us away from 'SALAT' is WRONG.

While we also know 'SALAT' is your right toward Allah, which can be forgiven but Quran mention many rights towards society which can never be forgiven.

Remember 'ZAKAT' is equally important than 'SALAT' and 50% of Pakistan do not pay it !!!!!!!!!!

Point is there are more important issue to debate in reference to Islam and there are things which are clearly forbidden and those include 'CORRUPTION'

IMO... We must focus equally more on what is 'FARZ' on us and there is long list..... because 'SALAT' is farz which is disturbed by wine drinking and while we ignore remaining 'FARZ' intentionaly.

Personally, i'm less disturbed by (occasional) wine drinker than a corrupt person who support the enemies of Pakistan.

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## Chogy

> Sir we know Abrahamic Religions sir as per Islam no single PROPHET drank alchoal or allowed alcohal for its people they all prohibited it but people later change their teachings and made alcohal legal for themselves



Sir, to be blunt, that is ridiculous. Abraham drank wine. So did Noah (Genesis 9:20-25). So did Jesus. 

You can cover your ears and eyes and say "Nyaah nyaah, I don't hear or see any of that! It's not true!" but unfortunately, it is. _There is nothing wrong with wine. It is a natural product._ What's wrong are fallible people who ABUSE wine.


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## Chogy

There is no such thing as moderate smoking. It's all harmful. *And it is absolutely intoxicating.* No, you won't fall unconscious, but to a new user, nicotine will turn you inside out. Major buzz, nausea, dizziness, vomiting.

So why is tobacco okay? It harms the smoker, _and it definitely harms society, as the cost to treat smokers' diseases puts an enormous strain on public health systems._

Hash/MJ... HUGELY popular in the ME. Technically illegal, but overlooked in many places.

Intoxicants are illegal? - how about a nice adrenaline "rush" from skydiving? How about those wonderul endorphins your own body makes while running long distances? The endorphins are basically human-made morphine. That's why many people can become addicted to running.

Caffeine - It's easy to cop a nice buzz with some strong coffee.

There are hundreds of Halal substances that intoxicate. So let's be intellectually honest. Either outlaw all of it, or how about this? _Allow an adult to make these decisions._ If those decisions harm others, like DUI, then punish. Otherwise, glorious freedom, rather than a slave to others' opinions.

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## Jango

this is a country in which the mullahs give khutba that you should not pray in X mosque, you should beat a ahmadi, you should kill the army people, ye that has happened and in the very mosque near my house.

These so called experts give these khutbas instead of preaching that you should not talk while sermon is being given, you should not walk over shoulders during sermon, the number of steps you tak while walking to mosque for friday prayer translate into sawab for each step.

What can you expect???


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## BATMAN

I also witness a Mullah near in a mosque inspiring to kill on infamous cartoon issue.... i had no doubt that this Mullah is a foreign agent.

In my whole life i never came across such inspiration but only now.


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## MM_Haider

IMO the title is falsified and moderators must change it.. FSC never said that consuming liquor is not Haram rather they only banned the whipping as a punnishment.. which is justified as per Quran and Sunnah. as far as islam is concerned telling lie, giving bribe, eating the wealth of orphan etc all are haram but Hadd is not applied on them.. same goes to consuming liquor which is the worst of all harams.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

the way i see it:


worst of all harams is something that causes detriment to society collectively....drinking only harms oneself, not others...though excess drinking can cause (among some people) a person to do things which could harm or endanger others


worst of all harams is murder; because the killing of one is the killing of all humanity ---as the Quran explains. Extortion, bribery, theft are also ''up there'' in the list.

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## Awesome

It's not haraam but they want to re-enact their S&M fantasies by whipping anyway... Confused much?

Mullahs can't even get Islam right...


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## Xeric

The Quran puts it (something) like this; _'is (alchohol) main faida kam or nuksan ziada hai, islye is sy bacho'_ - there is more harm in it than guud.

People with brains can make out the rest.

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## somebozo

Yes drinking liquor is not Haram - for the non-muslims and those who want to drink will drink it regardless.


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## 53fd

I will not comment on whether liquor is haram or not, I personally do not drink, but every person should be allowed to make whatever decision they want to, & be accountable to their God for it.


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## S.M.R

Imran Khan said:


> yuuuuuuukkkkkk damn you destroy it .it was our soft drink dear . now with every bottle buy cardamom too lolz


 
waisay I never tasted any of bear / alcohol in whole of my life, although i have been in the gathering where, raat bhar jaam say jaam takraya thaa...


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## Awesome

Chogy said:


> There is no such thing as moderate smoking. It's all harmful. *And it is absolutely intoxicating.* No, you won't fall unconscious, but to a new user, nicotine will turn you inside out. Major buzz, nausea, dizziness, vomiting.
> 
> So why is tobacco okay? It harms the smoker, _and it definitely harms society, as the cost to treat smokers' diseases puts an enormous strain on public health systems._
> 
> Hash/MJ... HUGELY popular in the ME. Technically illegal, but overlooked in many places.
> 
> Intoxicants are illegal? - how about a nice adrenaline "rush" from skydiving? How about those wonderul endorphins your own body makes while running long distances? The endorphins are basically human-made morphine. That's why many people can become addicted to running.
> 
> Caffeine - It's easy to cop a nice buzz with some strong coffee.
> 
> There are hundreds of Halal substances that intoxicate. So let's be intellectually honest. Either outlaw all of it, or how about this? _Allow an adult to make these decisions._ If those decisions harm others, like DUI, then punish. Otherwise, glorious freedom, rather than a slave to others' opinions.


 
IIRC someone was struggling with their own nicotine addiction... Sounds like we've got a handle on it now?

I grew up with a simple lesson from my dad, to not even touch a bottle of any liquor. That was good enough for me. Its been quite a bummer when I've had these drunk chicks spill all their beer on me twice on concerts. 

Anyway, later on, we learned anything that intoxicates, anything in any way makes you lose control of yourself, anything that harms you, its all forbidden. The concept of Haraam, is anything that was declared Haraam. But c'mon, I'm pretty sure there were a lot of things thats the Prophet didn't get around to declaring them specifically haraam in his 23 years of Prophet hood. But its simply implied.

Smoking was never declared Haraam, its implied IMO. Or lets get more technical, Ex was not even invented back then - its implied its Haraam. Or we can say it in English, if the Haraam tag is supposed to be kept exclusive.

Religion should remain a personal choice, there should be no declaration of Haraam or halaal and no punishment of whipping. Let the parents teach their children however they want to.

Religious people in charge of government never get it right.

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## S.M.R

VCheng said:


> Is there a difference between "parhaiz kero" (to avoid) and "mana he" (forbidden)?


 
in substance both have same meanings.

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## S.M.R

Xeric said:


> The Quran puts it (something) like this; _'is (alchohol) main faida kam or nuksan ziada hai, islye is sy bacho'_ - there is more harm in it than guud.
> 
> People with brains can make out the rest.


 
General, see this post of sur...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...ram-federal-shariat-court-12.html#post1981568

he has quoted two verses.


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## Xeric

S.M.R said:


> General, see this post of sur...
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...ram-federal-shariat-court-12.html#post1981568
> 
> he has quoted two verses.


 
Yup, it was the second verse that i was trying to paraphrase.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Xeric said:


> The Quran puts it (something) like this; _'is (alchohol) main faida kam or nuksan ziada hai, islye is sy bacho'_ - there is more harm in it than guud.
> 
> People with brains can make out the rest.


 
absolutely, that's right...

Allah SWT gave human beings something called a brain......brain is there to be used. People can for themselves, if they are even half-educated and raised properly, wuud know how to distinguish right from wrong....beneficial from detrimental


so that should be enough


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## MM_Haider

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the way i see it:
> 
> 
> worst of all harams is something that causes detriment to society collectively....drinking only harms oneself, not others...though excess drinking can cause (among some people) a person to do things which could harm or endanger others
> 
> 
> worst of all harams is murder; because the killing of one is the killing of all humanity ---as the Quran explains. Extortion, bribery, theft are also ''up there'' in the list.


 
How can you be so sure that consuming liqour only harms onself? If somebody is doing drunk driving hits another car and all others are either injured for life or dead, who is responsible? if a person is addicted his whole family suffers.. go around the society and you will find horrible stories of those childern whose lives were made horrible because of father's drinking habit.. statistics tell that almost all of the rapists were drunk when the crime was committed. 

Evil Effects of Drinking Wine and other Intoxicants


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## T-Faz

We had a great leader once, this great man used to get creative with women and alcohol.

Think nude body and flowing alcohol, the rest you can figure out yourself.

This is definately halam too.

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## punit

Zarvan said:


> It was always in Haram



then how come we find the mention of alchohal in Arabian nights .. and poetry of omar khayyam


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## punit

zahid sharab peene de masjid main baith kar
ya wo jaga bata de jahan par khuda na ho


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Drink! for you know not whence you came nor why: drink! for you know not why you go, nor where.
Omar Khayyam


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Ghalib

Hazaaron khwahishen aisi ke har khwahish pe dam nikle
Bohat niklay mere armaan, lekin phir bhi kam nikle

Daray kyon mera qaatil? kya rahega us ki gardan par?
Voh khoon, jo chashm-e-tar se umr bhar yoon dam-ba-dam nikle

Daray kyon mera qaatil? kya rahega us ki gardan par?
Voh khoon, jo chashm-e-tar se umr bhar yoon dam-ba-dam nikle


Nikalna khuld se aadam ka soonte aaye hain lekin
Bahot be-aabru hokar tere kooche se hum nikle


Bharam khul jaaye zaalim! teri qaamat ki daraazi ka
Agar is tarahe par pech-o-kham ka pech-o-kham nikle

Magar likhvaaye koi usko khat, to hum se likhvaaye
Hui subaha, aur ghar se kaan par rakh kar qalam nikle

Hui is daur mein mansoob mujh se baada aashaami
Phir aaya voh zamaana, jo jahaan mein jaam-e-jaam nikle


Hui jin se tavaqqa khastagi ki daad paane ki
Voh ham se bhi zyaada khasta e tegh e sitam nikle

Mohabbat mein nahin hai farq jeenay aur marnay ka
Usi ko dekh kar jeetay hain, jis kaafir pe dam nikle


Zara kar jor seene par ki teer-e-pursitam niklejo
Wo nikle to dil nikle, jo dil nikle to dam nikle


Khuda ke waaste parda na kaabe se uthaa zaalim
Kaheen aisa na ho yaan bhi wahi kaafir sanam nikle

Kahaan maikhane ka darwaaza Ghalib aur kahaan vaaiz
Par itna jaantay hain kal voh jaata tha ke ham nikle

Hazaaron khwahishen aisi ke har khwahish pe dam nikle
Bohat niklay mere armaan, lekin phir bhi kam nikle...


***************

Zauq! Jo medresse ke bigre hue hain mulla
Un ko maikhaane mein le aao sanwar jaayenge.
(Zauq! Bring the mulla misled by a medressa
To the tavern, it will correct his ways.) 

********************

Would the Lucknow maulana like to pass a fatwa against Iqbal's poetry? Now that would be much bigger news than a judgement against Madhushala. Of course Iqbal was never as provocative as Daagh could be:
Zahid sharaab peene de masjid mein baith kar
Ya wo jagah bata de jahan par Khuda na ho.
(Priest, let me sit and drink inside the mosque
Or tell me that place where God can't be found.)

*****************

Lutf-e-mai tujh se kya kahoon, zahid
Hai kambakht tu ne pee hi nahin.
(How do I describe, o priest, wine's joy to you?
A drop has never passed your misbegotten lips.)


Would Anyone Dare Issue a Fatwa Against Iqbal?


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## Raja.Pakistani

You do not need to be a Muslim to believe that drunkenness and excess alcohol consumption are undesirable and have a hugely negative impact on society. Alcohol can alter a person's judgment. It can cause people to act in ways that they wouldn't normally and the risk is that someone who intends to drink a small amount will end up drinking a large amount

There is a story that once a pious man met a woman, who invited him towards committing a sin (adultery). The man flatly refused. After her constant insisting, she still failed. Thereafter, she gave him a choice of options,

1. Committing adultery with her or

2. To murder her newly born child, whom had she begot from her previous husband. Or

3. To consume some alcohol which she possessed. If he were not willing to comply then she would scream and falsely inform the inhabitants of that place that he had raped her.

The man upon pondering decided to consume the alcohol, taking it to be least harmful of the three sins. Upon the consumption of alcohol, he became intoxicated, and then consequently, he killed the child and also committed adultery with the woman.

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## T-Faz

^^^^

Have the movie rights been sold yet?

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## VCheng

T-Faz said:


> ^^^^
> 
> Have the movie rights been sold yet?



The script is called _"Maula Jat tunn ho giya!"_


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## Raja.Pakistani

T-Faz said:


> ^^^^
> 
> Have the movie rights been sold yet?


 not yet. you can have all rights reserve to you 

But point was to convey the moral of movie : )


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## TheJewverine

Raja.Pakistani said:


> You do not need to be a Muslim to believe that drunkenness and excess alcohol consumption are undesirable and have a hugely negative impact on society. Alcohol can alter a person's judgment. It can cause people to act in ways that they wouldn't normally and the risk is that someone who intends to drink a small amount will end up drinking a large amount
> 
> There is a story that once a pious man met a woman, who invited him towards committing a sin (adultery). The man flatly refused. After her constant insisting, she still failed. Thereafter, she gave him a choice of options,
> 
> 1. Committing adultery with her or
> 
> 2. To murder her newly born child, whom had she begot from her previous husband. Or
> 
> 3. To consume some alcohol which she possessed. If he were not willing to comply then she would scream and falsely inform the inhabitants of that place that he had raped her.
> 
> The man upon pondering decided to consume the alcohol, taking it to be least harmful of the three sins. Upon the consumption of alcohol, he became intoxicated, and then consequently, he killed the child and also committed adultery with the woman.


 
Out of curiousity, who told this story originally?


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## Burger Boy

T-Faz said:


> Drinking is definitely halam.


 
Why not "Haral"?


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## Kompromat

Looks like our judges are fans of Atiqa odho.


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## Chogy

Asim Aquil said:


> IIRC someone was struggling with their own nicotine addiction... Sounds like we've got a handle on it now?



I dip Copenhagen snuff, and have for 20 years. I'd say that makes me an expert on nicotine addiction, which is why I can declare it intoxicating. That was the point. You'll also note I advocate freedom of choice in these matters. No hypocrisy at all. And my personal habits are surely not relevant to this thread, are they? 



> I grew up with a simple lesson from my dad, to not even touch a bottle of any liquor. That was good enough for me. Its been quite a bummer when I've had these drunk chicks spill all their beer on me twice on concerts.



Excellent choice. But some people can use alcohol with total responsibility.



> Anyway, later on, we learned anything that intoxicates, anything in any way makes you lose control of yourself,* anything that harms you*, its all forbidden. The concept of Haraam, is anything that was declared Haraam. But c'mon, I'm pretty sure there were a lot of things thats the Prophet didn't get around to declaring them specifically haraam in his 23 years of Prophet hood. But its simply implied.



*How about risky behaviors?* They certainly harm people. No one needs to sky dive, for example. But you get a cool adrenaline rush from it. Your brain pumps your body full of chemicals.



> Smoking was never declared Haraam, its implied IMO. Or lets get more technical, Ex was not even invented back then - its implied its Haraam. Or we can say it in English, if the Haraam tag is supposed to be kept exclusive.
> 
> Religion should remain a personal choice, there should be no declaration of Haraam or halaal and no punishment of whipping. Let the parents teach their children however they want to.
> 
> Religious people in charge of government never get it right.



I understand and appreciate what you are saying here, and agree with almost all of it. Legislating human behaviors with regards to intoxicants of any form is almost always doomed to fail. Look at the sad, decades long "war on drugs." Consider the enormous human misery. And I refer not to the drugs so much as the trafficking, the policing, the smuggling, narco-terrorism, jail, on and on.

_Something else to consider - Let's go back in time to the year 1800. I can grow and use MJ. I can go into any chemist shop and buy giant bricks of opium. I can eat magic mushrooms all day long. There were no State narcotics laws... at least none in the U.S. and most of the world was similar.

What did human society look like then? Was everyone junkies, drug-addled fools? No. If all of these substances are sooo evil, how did we as a species survive? I'll tell you the answer... we did fine. Some people had problems. Most didn't._

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## Subramanian

Try to apply common sense here.

The great Propher obviously banned Liquour because Arabia is a hot place and if u r a drunkard there in the hot weather,you ll erode yoesur liver black.It is even worse for the common working class man as he has to toil in the sun to make a living.

Same thing happens in TamilNadu also.Being a hot place,any kind of liquour is going to erode the liver and heat up the body too much and people cant go out and work in the farms,despite the religion being lenient the society thinks of drinking as a big haram and smoking also.

Same thing in Punjab,where drinking is alright but smoking is haram as it deprives you of stamina and without that it gets difficult to work/fight.


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## Xeric

Subramanian said:


> Try to apply common sense here.
> 
> The great Propher obviously banned Liquour because Arabia is a hot place and if u r a drunkard there in the hot weather,you ll erode yoesur liver black.It is even worse for the common working class man as he has to toil in the sun to make a living.
> 
> Same thing happens in TamilNadu also.Being a hot place,any kind of liquour is going to erode the liver and heat up the body too much and people cant go out and work in the farms,despite the religion being lenient the society thinks of drinking as a big haram and smoking also.
> 
> Same thing in Punjab,where drinking is alright but smoking is haram as it deprives you of stamina and without that it gets difficult to work/fight.


 
This post qualifies for http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/29147-stupid-funny-all-over-world.html

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## T-Faz

Subramanian said:


> Try to apply common sense here.
> 
> The great Propher obviously banned Liquour because Arabia is a hot place and if u r a drunkard there in the hot weather,you ll erode yoesur liver black.It is even worse for the common working class man as he has to toil in the sun to make a living.
> 
> Same thing happens in TamilNadu also.Being a hot place,any kind of liquour is going to erode the liver and heat up the body too much and people cant go out and work in the farms,despite the religion being lenient the society thinks of drinking as a big haram and smoking also.
> 
> Same thing in Punjab,where drinking is alright but smoking is haram as it deprives you of stamina and without that it gets difficult to work/fight.


 
Take your advice, put the bottle down.

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## S.M.R

*Just chill and drink..*


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## Subramanian

T-Faz said:


> Take your advice, put the bottle down.


 
i am sure the teachings had way more common sense to apply based on the cultural demands of the place than some random intervention as you think so.I dont mind bro,any practice ll have value if and only if it is of practical use.

I dont understand why the prophet being practical with his teachings offends you lot.

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## nescafe

Chogy said:


> There is no such thing as moderate smoking. It's all harmful. *And it is absolutely intoxicating.* No, you won't fall unconscious, but to a new user, nicotine will turn you inside out. Major buzz, nausea, dizziness, vomiting.
> 
> So why is tobacco okay? It harms the smoker, _and it definitely harms society, as the cost to treat smokers' diseases puts an enormous strain on public health systems._
> 
> Hash/MJ... HUGELY popular in the ME. Technically illegal, but overlooked in many places.
> 
> Intoxicants are illegal? - how about a nice adrenaline "rush" from skydiving? How about those wonderul endorphins your own body makes while running long distances? The endorphins are basically human-made morphine. That's why many people can become addicted to running.
> 
> Caffeine - It's easy to cop a nice buzz with some strong coffee.
> 
> There are hundreds of Halal substances that intoxicate. So let's be intellectually honest. Either outlaw all of it, or how about this? _Allow an adult to make these decisions._ If those decisions harm others, like DUI, then punish. Otherwise, glorious freedom, rather than a slave to others' opinions.


 
there is a difference between "running 15 km to get 6 mm endorphins" and "lying on the restroom's couch of a night club and buying the morphine"...lol


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## Abu Zolfiqar

where i come from it's easier to get hash than it is to get a Sugarfree Redbull.....

me personally, I found that the best drug in the world is one that comes naturally (endorphins). All you really need to do is wake up early and play squash or tennis; or do a quick 15 lap run around a 400 meter track.

the best part is, the only hangover you feel is increased alertness and better mood. (as opposed to being comatose)


but regardless of what your drug or vice is --- if your gonna do something (out of curiosity, or just out of habit) at least know to do it in moderation....because too much of anything is bad in life. And by anything i really mean -- ANYTHING.

as for the whole haram/halal thing --- yes alcohol is haram. There are logical reasons behind it, as someone partly outlined earlier. But humans are only humans and are imperfect and will die imperfect. 


Only God (if you truly believe) can judge in the end. Your parents, siblings, friends etc. can only help guide you. Rest is up to you.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

nescafe said:


> there is a difference between "running 15 km to get 6 mm endorphins" and "lying on the restroom's couch of a night club and buying the morphine"...lol


 
the difference lies in the thickness of your wallet and the cells (or lackthereof in some cases) in the brain


by the way, since when do nightclub bathrooms have couches? Where are you hanging out sir?

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## ansarya

I think that the full-bench of the FSC comprising Chief Justice Haziqul Khairi, Justice Salahuddin Mirza and Justice Fida Mohammad Khan, were drunken!!
They also might have heared that famous song before passing the judgment, "Nasha sharab mmain hota tou nachhte botal"


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## Pride

I remember one ghazal by Akbar Allahabadi, Sung by Ghulam Ali. "Hungama hai kyon barpa, Thodi si jo pee li hai". Its history is also very amazing. Just picking quotes from someone-



> Let me say a couple of things about this particular ghazal.Generally,it is believed that this ghazal is about peena-pilana(taking liquor).It is not really, my dear friends!People ,who have read other works of Akbar Allahabadi know very well how he use to write.Incidenatlly,he never even touched wine in all of his life(like a true devout muslim).This particular piece of poetry has a sense of history and a particular background.It was written when the differences between the congress and Muslim League were at its peak.They were totally divided and fighting with each other.The English were very successful in propagating their(or infamous) famous&#8221;Divide and Rule policy&#8221;.Sir Syed (Founder of AMU) was a prominenet Muslim leader and was with british establishments.Even at this point of time Akbar Allahabadi was talking about the unity of Hindus and Muslims.Detractors of Akbar Allahabadi concluded that Hindus have offered some Nasha (liquor) to him and this is the reason he was talking totally out of tune and context! Akbar Allahabadi wrote this particular ghazal to address them.If you listen even to the small peice of this ghazal sung beautifully by Ghulam Ali,you may notice that in one of shers that &#8220;Us may se nahi matlab jo &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Maksood(meaning) hain us may se dil hi mein chanati hain&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..
> 
> Hope it makes sense to at least some of you!!

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## araz

Chogy said:


> 1) No alcohol, ever - probably a good choice in life
> 
> 2) Glass of beer or wine with a meal - no problems, potential health benefits, still under debate
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 3) getting ripped, blotto'd, smashed, trashed - haram
> 
> How about making intoxication haram? And what about smoking? Smoking is just as bad, if not worse, than alcohol.


 
Chogy 
There is no doubt in my mind that Alcohol is Haram, and the punishment for it is lashings which are on record for having been administered to a Sahabi .Incidentally we also find the prophet going to the same Sahabi after his lashings and talking to him kindly and even joking with him. The prophet however rejected the suggestion of Umar that as this Sahabi was caught for the same crime 3 times , he should be beheaded.
In order to understand the teachings of Islam you have to understand the logic behind its rulings. Islam understands that for every act of moderation(for instance 95% of christians always drink in moderation and dont get intoxicated, but 5%do and get addicted) there will be a small minority that would not be able to control themselves. So Islam's answer is to abstain from a potentially bad act which might bring harm to some of the people. It is because till such time that you start , you will never know how you will behave. This principle is the basis of all the commands that Islam enforces on the muslims. I hope you understand why it is not allowed to drink in Islam.

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## araz

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Smoking was declared Haraam by Azhari scholars in the 1920s. Reading that short fatwa was very instructive of how their thought process worked. I''ll try to grab a hold of it again if I can.


 
The basis for this is the Ayat in Surah Baqara translated as "do not knowingly bring your self to harm" Interestingly the original translation suggested that it was in relation to Muslims donating money to support the war effort and thereby becoming subjugated.
Araz


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## araz

Pride said:


> I remember one ghazal by Akbar Allahabadi, Sung by Ghulam Ali. "Hungama hai kyon barpa, Thodi si jo pee li hai". Its history is also very amazing. Just picking quotes from someone-


 
I could not double thank you for bringing this to light so thank you again!! Akbar Illah abadi was indeed a great and pious man and a devout muslim.

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## araz

Devil Soul said:


> *Drinking Alcohol is HARAM ... end of story *


 
You must know the reason for it as well. That way instead of showing a rigid attitude, you express knowledge and act wisely.
WaSalam
Araz


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## VCheng

It would be pertinent to mention here that throughout the golden era of Islam, alcohol was widely available and used not only in science but socially as well.


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## araz

VCheng said:


> It would be pertinent to mention here that throughout the golden era of Islam, alcohol was widely available and used not only in science but socially as well.


 
Availability should not translate into freedom of use for Muslims. Indeed the keeping, using, buying and selling of Alcohol is haram in Islam. However during the era, we lived amongst Christians and Pagans who consumed and manufactured Alcohol. So where as it was sold and consumed by these pagans, it was considered a crime for muslims to drink alcohol.
Araz


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## VCheng

araz said:


> Availability should not translate into freedom of use for Muslims. *Indeed the keeping, using, buying and selling of Alcohol is haram in Islam.* However during the era, we lived amongst Christians and Pagans who consumed and manufactured Alcohol. So where as it was sold and consumed by these pagans, it was considered a crime for muslims to drink alcohol.
> Araz




...... and yet it *WAS *used, bought and sold freely during the the hundreds of years of the Islamic golden era without any harm to the Muslims. We are still on the same planet with "christians and pagans" who consume and manufacture alcohol.


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## araz

VCheng said:


> ...... and yet it *WAS *used, bought and sold freely during the the hundreds of years of the Islamic golden era without any harm to the Muslims. We are still on the same planet with "christians and pagans" who consume and manufacture alcohol.


 
As long as the parameters are in use and proper punishments are dealt out JUSTLY!! I dont have any problem with alcxohol being sold. It is a similar matter that in order to avoid people getting addicted we long ago banned Morphine from being manufactured. Tell you what. People just found other drugs to get addicted to.


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## U-571

araz said:


> Chogy
> There is no doubt in my mind that Alcohol is Haram, and the punishment for it is lashings which are on record for having been administered to a Sahabi .Incidentally we also find the prophet going to the same Sahabi after his lashings and talking to him kindly and even joking with him. The prophet however rejected the suggestion of Umar that as this Sahabi was caught for the same crime 3 times , he should be beheaded.
> In order to understand the teachings of Islam you have to understand the logic behind its rulings. Islam understands that for every act of moderation(for instance 95% of christians always drink in moderation and dont get intoxicated, but 5%do and get addicted) there will be a small minority that would not be able to control themselves. So Islam's answer is to abstain from a potentially bad act which might bring harm to some of the people. It is because till such time that you start , you will never know how you will behave. This principle is the basis of all the commands that Islam enforces on the muslims. I hope you understand why it is not allowed to drink in Islam.


 
actually these people know all this info, but just act ignorant

every american can see what happens when they become drunk, they may never know they wake up in a garbage can next morning


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## VCheng

araz said:


> As long as the parameters are in use and proper punishments are dealt out JUSTLY!! I dont have any problem with alcxohol being sold. It is a similar matter that in order to avoid people getting addicted we long ago banned Morphine from being manufactured. Tell you what. People just found other drugs to get addicted to.


 

Exactly. Let it be, and just guide and educate people properly, that is all. After all, self-inflicted damages are by definition self-limiting.


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## JonAsad

Buying- selling of alcohol is Haram in Islam- so whats the problem if there is a law telling us exactly that?- After all the laws are meant to reinforce isn't it?-


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## araz

VCheng said:


> Exactly. Let it be, and just guide and educate people properly, that is all. After all, self-inflicted damages are by definition self-limiting.


 
All the education in the west has not stopped people from harming themselves. How do you think it will stop People in Pakistan ?


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## roadrunner

araz said:


> In order to understand the teachings of Islam you have to understand the logic behind its rulings. Islam understands that for every act of moderation(for instance 95% of christians always drink in moderation and dont get intoxicated, but 5%do and get addicted) there will be a small minority that would not be able to control themselves. So Islam's answer is to abstain from a potentially bad act which might bring harm to some of the people. It is because till such time that you start , you will never know how you will behave. This principle is the basis of all the commands that Islam enforces on the muslims. I hope you understand why it is not allowed to drink in Islam.


 
i dont agree with that, personally. That sounds more like collective punishment/reward. 

If you do something good, you receive reward, not the Muslim standing next to you who did nothing. 

If you get drunk and do something "incorrect", you receive negative points, not the Muslim next to you. 

If 5% of Muslims are unable to drive without being wreckless, the other 95% would still be allowed.


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## Durrak

bilalhaider said:


> I say, let people sin & be answerable to their God, no one else. Simple.


 
*Mohammed (s.a.w) has said : when you see a wrong (sin) try to stop it with your hands, and if you cant then atleast tell the person it is a sin to do such a thing, and if you cannot do even this, then you have only an atom of eeman left in you and if you want to save this, think of the wrong as a sin and abstain from it; (i.e) do not become a partner to it, do not join in the persons sinful act.*

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## Durrak

BATMAN said:


> Is smoking Halal???? I need to reconfirm your quotes ... so give me clear references. Chapter and verse....


 
*The Prophet Mohamed sala alaahu alaihi wa salam said: "Do not harm yourself or injure others"; "Do not wish death even on the death bed" (Bukhari & Muslim).*

*The Qur'an says clearly: "You shall spend in the cause of God; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; God loves the charitable". (Qur'an 2:195)..*

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## VCheng

araz said:


> All the education in the west has not stopped people from harming themselves. How do you think it will stop People in Pakistan ?



Very true, but at an endemic level of costs that are acceptable to society, at least in the West. For Pakistan, it might be different, but consider that we have always had low levels of endemic drug use, albeit with a rise in the early eighties. The problems that arise in instigating and enforcing the ban are far more troublesome than the alternative, but we can debate that further.


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## desiman

does it really matter, I dont think I know a muslim in Canada who does not drink. Why do we even discuss such laws when they have no bearing on anyone, we only like religious laws that are helpful to us, but we tend to find ways around laws that we dont like.

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## VCheng

desiman said:


> does it really matter,* I dont think I know a muslim in Canada who does not drink.* Why do we even discuss such laws when they have no bearing on anyone, we only like religious laws that are helpful to us, but we tend to find ways around laws that we dont like.



I think you need to widen your circle of acquaintances!

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## T-Faz

I don't drink but I know many people who do and they drink in front of me but it does not influence me to do it.

I have however tasted alcohol once and its not for me.

I wouldn't mind drinking cocktails and other such beverages socially if there is a requirement. It depends on the environment actually, I move into such a gentry professionally but even then a glass of juice is preferred.

I will taste all kinds of alcohols though in my life just so I know the taste, a sip or two isn't a sin according to me.

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## desiman

VCheng said:


> I think you need to widen your circle of acquaintances!


 
lol studied in many universities here bro and involved at the local mosque as well, I know enough people to make a judgement call there.


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## araz

VCheng said:


> Very true, but at an endemic level of costs that are acceptable to society, at least in the West. For Pakistan, it might be different, but consider that we have always had low levels of endemic drug use, albeit with a rise in the early eighties. The problems that arise in instigating and enforcing the ban are far more troublesome than the alternative, but we can debate that further.


 
At least in UK the NHS has started feeling the pinch from alcohol related problems. In addition you need to count the cost of personal and emotional costs of drinking, which are substantial.
As to drugs, why do you say there is no significant problem in Pakistan. That is a very uninformed view.
Araz


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## U-571

desiman said:


> lol studied in many universities here bro and involved at the local mosque as well, I know enough people to make a judgement call there.


 
studied in many universities?????????


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## desiman

U-571 said:


> studied in many universities?????????


 
undergrad, masters, PM courses, various certifications and now working towards a doctorate.


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## araz

roadrunner said:


> i dont agree with that, personally. That sounds more like collective punishment/reward.
> 
> If you do something good, you receive reward, not the Muslim standing next to you who did nothing.
> 
> If you get drunk and do something "incorrect", you receive negative points, not the Muslim next to you.
> 
> If 5% of Muslims are unable to drive without being wreckless, the other 95% would still be allowed.


 
So be it, but laws are not devised for the benefit of the few. Alcohol is a nuisance as is being reported in UK and US and the health care and social, Psychological, crime and other related issues including broken homes are reason enough for people to keep away from it. I look at it from a purely religious point of view and say if Allah SWT and his Prophet SAW have forbidden us, that is good enough for a reason. All the logic pales in front of the command. For instance why has Pork been forbidden. If you drink , do you take a similar attitude towards Pork, or for that matter Halal meat.
Araz

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## VCheng

desiman said:


> lol studied in many universities here bro and involved at the local mosque as well, I know enough people to make a judgement call there.



I would submit to you that this particular judgement call is based on insufficient sampling.

****************************************************************



araz said:


> At least in UK the NHS has started feeling the pinch from alcohol related problems. In addition you need to count the cost of personal and emotional costs of drinking, which are substantial.
> As to drugs, why do you say there is no significant problem in Pakistan. That is a very uninformed view.
> Araz



Yes, but on a societal level, these costs have acceptance. As social mores change, more restrictions may be applied, but not before that happens.

It is presumptuous of you to call my view uninformed without understanding it. Please note that I said:



VCheng said:


> Very true, but at an endemic level of costs that are acceptable to society, at least in the West. For Pakistan, it might be different, but consider that we have always had low levels of endemic drug use, albeit with a rise in the early eighties. The problems that arise in instigating and enforcing the ban are far more troublesome than the alternative, but we can debate that further.


 
which is correct, but without any judgement as to the significance of the problem. Let me explain in simpler terms:

Before the 80s, drug use was endemic at a low level, RISING after the 80s. "It might be different" refers to the fact that Pakistan might NOT find the endemic level of cost of drug use acceptable. Also, my point is that starting and enforcing society-wide bans cause more problems than they solve, but this part we can debate.

Please try to comprehend before jumping to conclusions.


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## abdulahad1

Ye Pakistan ki Court hy na k ISLAMI riasat ki, jis tara Pakistan mein ijtamai muamlat mein jaisay SIASAT, MAESHAT, MUASHARAT, TALEEM, DAKHLA / KHARRJA Policy mein ISLAM ka koi wajood nahi esi tarah yahan ki ADALTUN mein faislay bi ISLAM k mutabiq nahi balkay Pakistan bannay sy pehlay k British Indian Act 1935 k mutabiq hutay hein.

"Jo ALLAH k utaray huay k mutabik faisla nahi kartay wohi Zalim, Fasiq aur Kafir hein" (Surah Al-Maida).

Ham sab ko fikar karni chahiye k Qabar aur Hashar mein ham kya jawab den gy k dunya mein kis k HUKAM aur NIZAM k mutabik zindagi guraz kar aye hein.

ISLAM IS NOT SECULAR, ISLAM IS DEEN; TOTAL AND ACCURATE WAY OF LIFE, JIS MEIN IBADAAT K SAATH MUAMLAT BI HEIN LEKIN UN MUAMLAT KA NIFAZ AIK ISLAMI RIASAT K BAGHAIR NAHI HU SAKTA, JO IS PURI DUNYA MEIN KAHIN NAHI HY.
LEHAZA AGAR MUSALMAN ALLAH K HUKAM K MUTABIK ZINDAGI GUZAR KAR DONO JAHANUN MEIN SURKHURU HUNA CHAHTAY HEIN TU US ISLAMI RIASAT KO QAIM KARNA UN PAR FARZ HY.

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## Zarvan

Islam doesn't allow Alcohal Alochal is a sin in Islam and its duty of Islamic Government to implement the Laws of Islam and HAZRAT UMAR RA the great leader of Islam ordered the punishment of lashing for his own son and his son died because of that punishment


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## Pride

araz said:


> I could not double thank you for bringing this to light so thank you again!! Akbar Illah abadi was indeed a great and pious man and a devout muslim.


 
No probs I felt what you felt.. I love this ghazal more after knowing history another connection is I am also Allahbadi (Illahabadi)


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## FreekiN

Zarvan said:


> Islam doesn't allow Alcohal Alochal is a sin in Islam and its duty of Islamic Government to implement the Laws of Islam and HAZRAT UMAR RA the great leader of Islam* ordered the punishment of lashing for his own son and his son died because of that punishment*


 
What happened to being a religion of peace?

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## Imran Khan

again i say keep GOV and reliegon'S nose out of personal matters let people decide abut there personal matters .if he drink and disturb or harm someone arrest him same time .

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## Chogy

araz said:


> In order to understand the teachings of Islam you have to understand the logic behind its rulings. Islam understands that for every act of moderation(for instance 95% of christians always drink in moderation and dont get intoxicated, but 5%do and get addicted) *there will be a small minority that would not be able to control themselves.* So Islam's answer is to abstain from a potentially bad act which might bring harm to some of the people. It is because till such time that you start , you will never know how you will behave. This principle is the basis of all the commands that Islam enforces on the muslims. I hope you understand why it is not allowed to drink in Islam.



I can see the logic behind this, but doesn't this create a situation where the majority are subject to the tyranny of the minority?

Some people become addicted to vicoden, a prescription pain narcotic that is very common. Should vicoden be eliminated because some people have trouble with it? This would be horrible for people in pain. 

There will always be behaviors and/or substances that cause problems. The list is huge. Fatty foods, various medicines, firearms, motorcycles, etc. Do we outlaw deep-fried food because some people become obese eating it?

I respect the rights of a country to limit behaviors and objects like guns, drugs, alcohol... but I'd rather see people make better choices, and above all, take responsibility for those choices.


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## Chogy

I'd like someone to address my thought experiment. 

*100 years ago, there were no laws with regards to drugs.* I could go in a drug store and buy a liter of Mrs Winslow's soothing syrup which was chock full of morphine. 







I could grow and smoke marijuana. _ Society functioned fine. Humanity progressed._ Did some people have problems? Of course. They are going to have problems regardless of laws that legislate morality.

Such things should be a personal decision. I respect anybody who decides not to drink, for whatever reason. But someone else's religious law should not become a State law. That is the only limit I'd place on it.

I am a huge fan of Libertarianism; freedom in all things, responsibility in all things.


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## untitled

Chogy said:


> I could grow and smoke marijuana. _ Society functioned fine. Humanity progressed._ Did some people have problems? Of course. They are going to have problems regardless of laws that legislate morality.



How much freedom in your opinion should an individual have ?


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## Chogy

varigeo said:


> How much freedom in your opinion should an individual have ?



Almost unlimited, so long as they understand any harm they cause to themselves is on them.

I am certainly not against laws restricting crimes like violence and theft. I believe people should wear clothes.  Essentially, if I don't harm my neighbor, it's good to go. If I want to ride my motorcycle without a helmet, I should be allowed to do so. If I crash and need expensive medical care, it's on me to pay for it. I dislike "nanny laws" where big brother government tells me what to do, wear, consume, and think. FWIW I don't use drugs. 

Societies' attempts to enforce morality rarely work well.


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## Mabs

I would like to try to add to this thought provoking discussion with my limited knowledge and would welcome any corrections. I will try to address many issues which have been raised throughout the thread.

First off, you can not see Quran or the Hadith in isolation. The one can not work without the other and you would be left clueless as to what to do. For example, *the mannerisms of praying have not been defined in the Quran but in the Hadith and if you were to go strictly by the Quran, everyone would be praying their own way. Quran is the word of the God and Hadith is how the prophet explained it to the people*, both are important and need to be seen in entirety rather than Isolation.

As per the Muslim faith, Quran is the continuation of the Torah and the Bible and the final word of God. It builds upon what the previous scriptures said and holds the power to allow or abolish which was permitted or forbidden before. *Alcohol was allowed in the days of Prophets David,Jesus and even early days of Muhammad but was systematically phased out in 3 stages. You can not justify consumption of alcohol by establishing that Abraham or Jesus consumed it too. The last manuscript i.e the Quran disallows and that needs to be taken as the final word*. God in the Quran says that with Quran he has completed the faith and nothing new needs to be added so NO there isn't a chance that prophet Muhammad didn't get the time to tell each and everything to the people.

The verse about not praying while intoxicated refers to that time when the alcohol was being phased out. To understand the real verdict on alcohol, you need to see the last ruling on it which declares it forbidden. *Having said that using alcohol for medicinal use will not make you a Kafir and exclude you from the religion. The rough translation of a verse in the Quran says " We have made this religion easy for you so do not try to overburden yourself by going to the extreme and make it hard on yourself". Praying is the most fundamental and utmost important part of the Muslim faith but even that can be given up if fear of life is at hand. You can even tell someone that you are not a Muslim and don't believe in God if you fear for your life. I can't see how using alcohol to save a life is worse than pronouncing yourself as a Kafir.*

Lastly, the Fatwa regarding cigarettes in my personal opinion is a bit misplaced and a skewed interpretation of the verse. The verse is regarding giving money to fuel war and not personal health. If we go by the logic of the fatwa which was that anything which is self detrimental is Haram, then too much fast food should be Haram as well as it results in obesity which leads to heart problems which might be fatal. To really understand the Quran, it is imperative that one understands the context in which the verse was revealed. Like the verse which is so often quoted against Islam is that " Kill the disbelievers wherever you see them". *Now the context of the verse is that kill them when you see them in a battle filed and make peace if they wish to do so. The verse by itself sure looks violent to say the least but when seen in the right context it makes sense as in a war, if you don't kill the enemy, the enemy will kill you.*

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## Zarvan

FreekiN said:


> What happened to being a religion of peace?


 Sir Peace doesn't mean you start forgiving every criminal Sir His son committed a crime and he was punished according to the law now if he died its no ones fault


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## Zarvan

Chogy said:


> Almost unlimited, so long as they understand any harm they cause to themselves is on them.
> 
> I am certainly not against laws restricting crimes like violence and theft. I believe people should wear clothes.  Essentially, if I don't harm my neighbor, it's good to go. If I want to ride my motorcycle without a helmet, I should be allowed to do so. If I crash and need expensive medical care, it's on me to pay for it. I dislike "nanny laws" where big brother government tells me what to do, wear, consume, and think. FWIW I don't use drugs.
> 
> Societies' attempts to enforce morality rarely work well.


 No Sir human thoughts are limited and they can't decide good and bad for themselves only GOD knows what is better and what is bad for humans so he he has given you the rules for your own good


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## Zarvan

Imran Khan said:


> again i say keep GOV and reliegon'S nose out of personal matters let people decide abut there personal matters .if he drink and disturb or harm someone arrest him same time .


 
Sorry Sir this doesn't work for Islam Islam is a whole way of Life and it gives orders for every things so and Islamic Government has the duty to enforce these orders


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## Awesome

Chogy said:


> I dip Copenhagen snuff, and have for 20 years. I'd say that makes me an expert on nicotine addiction, which is why I can declare it intoxicating. That was the point. You'll also note I advocate freedom of choice in these matters. No hypocrisy at all. And my personal habits are surely not relevant to this thread, are they?


Often tones are not expressed on forums, my comment was congratulatory 



> How about risky behaviors? They certainly harm people. No one needs to sky dive, for example. But you get a cool adrenaline rush from it. Your brain pumps your body full of chemicals.


See its a given, the more technical religious you get, the less fun everything gets. So thats why I always say let it be a personal choice and even if you're religious you can use your personal judgment on what God will be okay with and what not. 

I don't think any religion ever truly covered having fun. The worldly aspects of Islam are more or less about living healthy, keeping society functioning, reducing crime, dispensing justice among many such similar things. Which is why the technical religious people are also not so much in favor of a sport like cricket. Its something Islamically not necessary. Are risky behaviors necessary? Is fun necessary? I think there must be some leeway for being human, after God made us well... human. How much? Your call, you'll answer for it in the end if you make the wrong call.

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## Awesome

For all the Sharabi's in the house...

Nasha Sharaab main hota toh, naachti botal
Maikaday jhoomtay, paimaanon main hoti halchal

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## abdulahad1

Imran Khan said:


> again i say keep GOV and reliegon'S nose out of personal matters let people decide abut there personal matters .if he drink and disturb or harm someone arrest him same time .


 
This is the freedom which come from Secular Ideology and which the west wants to inject in Muslims that everybody is free, that's why many haram are not considered in Muslims as haram. If someone do sexual intercourse willingly then this is their personal matter (ALAS!). And now they want homosexual legally in Muslims land and one such cermony to promote this Haram action was occur in Islamabad at US Embassy about 3 weeks ago.
Any one who declare LA ILAHA ILLAL ALLAH MUHAMMAD UR RASOOLAL ALLAH is in contract and bound in his all indivisual and collective matter of life to live it according to Allah and His Messenger Muhammad. A true Muslim knows that if he did anything hidden then it may hidden from Government and other people but Allah is with him and see every action he is doing.

This is pure secularism to kick out religion from your STATE matters. And that's why we are disgrace in front of Allah and he left us because our matters in Politics, Economics, Judiciary, Education, Health, Foreign and Internal Policies and Social System is not coming from ISLAM.

Oh! Ummat e Muslima come back to ISLAM totally as Allah says in Quran "Come into Deen e Islam Totally" (BAKARA:208).

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## VCheng

abdulahad1 said:


> ..............
> Any one who declare LA ILAHA ILLAL ALLAH MUHAMMAD UR RASOOLAL ALLAH is in *contract *and bound in his all indivisual and collective matter of life to live it according to Allah and His Messenger Muhammad. A true Muslim knows that if he did anything hidden then it may hidden from Government and other people but Allah is with him and see every action he is doing.
> ...............



IF you are going to use the contract analogy, then please consider that only adults can enter into contracts, and no parent would have the right to bind their offspring by this "contract", and thus the death penalty cannot apply to an unenforceable contract.


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## araz

VCheng said:


> I would submit to you that this particular judgement call is based on insufficient sampling.
> 
> ****************************************************************
> Vcheng
> we seem to be going on in circles.The only reason these costs are accepted is because it is not possible for a western Government to ban alcohol. They gain financially from it and dont have any cogent religious reason to ban it. Politically also it would tentamount to suicide. So they lumber on and bear the cost. But that does not mean that they are not feeling the pinch and impact
> Araz


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## untitled

^^^ The Americans banned beer/alcohol in 20s (Probation/Gangster period)... American beer has never been the same since .... I am told


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## VCheng

araz said:


> Vcheng
> we seem to be going on in circles.The only reason these costs are accepted is because it is not possible for a western Government to ban alcohol. *They gain financially from it* and dont have any cogent religious reason to ban it. Politically also it would tentamount to suicide. So they lumber on and bear the cost. But that does not mean that they are not feeling the pinch and impact
> Araz



Exactly correct, I agree with you here, since you now get my point. As long as the revenues are much greater than costs, which they presently are, then the costs are regarded as socially acceptable. In fact, some people use this analogy to argue for legalizing all drugs but taxing them heavily.


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## untitled

VCheng said:


> In fact, some people use this analogy to argue for legalizing all drugs but taxing them heavily.


 
Do you agree with that ?


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## untitled

double post .... delete


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## VCheng

varigeo said:


> Do you agree with that ?



In principle, yes. But there need to be heavy taxation, and close safeguards.

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## untitled

VCheng said:


> But there need to be heavy taxation, and close safeguards.



Does your opinion also apply to performance enhancing drugs in sports ?


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## VCheng

varigeo said:


> Does your opinion also apply to performance enhancing drugs in sports ?



That is debatable. I could argue either way on that particular issue, but I am inclined to say no.


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## untitled

So your opinion is ... All kinds toxins, poisons, drugs, additives should be available for consumption as long as they are regulated by the government (Pretty much does away with the FDA in the US)



VCheng said:


> That is debatable. I could argue either way on that particular issue, but I am inclined to say no.



Why should the athletes not be allowed to reach their potential..... Many are using it anyway ..... it will do away with the embarrassing doping tests for good.


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## VCheng

varigeo said:


> So your opinion is ... All kinds toxins, poisons, drugs, additives should be available for consumption as long as they are regulated by the government (Pretty much does away with the FDA in the US)



Well, why not? There are many ways to make sure the regulations stay appropriate to the particular toxin, drug or additive in question. The FDA's, or similar agencies', roles can be mandated differently.





varigeo said:


> Why should the athletes not be allowed to reach their potential..... Many are using it anyway ..... it will do away with the embarrassing doping tests for good.



It depends on whether it is a team sport or only individual, and perhaps consider two types of leagues for each, one "enhanced" and one "natural", but openly and fairly.


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## Chogy

I want to be sure people understand my position. * I respect people of faith following their religious edicts, so long as those religious rules do not become State laws, which I (and others) would be forced to live under.*

Islam is not the only religion that says "no booze." Mormonism is even more strict, with caffeine and tobacco also off limits. I find it admirable. Just don't legislate it.

I believe any attempts to re-create God's _intended _world for us here on Earth is doomed to fail. We had the allegorical Garden of Eden, and because we suck at following the rules, our environment became nasty - thorns, pain, death, all that. There will always be neighbors who engage in behavior you don't approve of, and so long as what they are doing does not harm you, then I don't think you'd have any say in the matter. The simple example is the gay couple living next door, who fire up a bong every so often.

Do you like it? Probably not. Are they harming you? Absolutely not.

Unless they crash into you with their car while intoxicated. Then, you hammer them, but only within the law.


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## Mabs

Chogy said:


> I want to be sure people understand my position. * I respect people of faith following their religious edicts, so long as those religious rules do not become State laws, which I (and others) would be forced to live under.*
> 
> Islam is not the only religion that says "no booze." Mormonism is even more strict, with caffeine and tobacco also off limits. I find it admirable. Just don't legislate it.
> 
> I believe any attempts to re-create God's _intended _world for us here on Earth is doomed to fail. We had the allegorical Garden of Eden, and because we suck at following the rules, our environment became nasty - thorns, pain, death, all that. There will always be neighbors who engage in behavior you don't approve of, and so long as what they are doing does not harm you, then I don't think you'd have any say in the matter. The simple example is the gay couple living next door, who fire up a bong every so often.
> 
> *Do you like it? Probably not. Are they harming you? Absolutely not.*
> 
> Unless they crash into you with their car while intoxicated. Then, you hammer them, but only within the law.


 
They might not be harming you personally but can you neglect the social harm that comes along with something which isn't right ?What if your kid gets influenced by the couple next door and starts using all kinds of drugs excessively. What if God forbid something happens to your kid as a result of using excessive drugs while being influenced by the couple next door ? Would you blame them or who would you adjudicate responsible for the state of your child ?


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## VCheng

Mabs said:


> They might not be harming you personally but can you neglect the social harm that comes along with something which isn't right ?What if your kid gets influenced by the couple next door and starts using all kinds of drugs excessively. What if God forbid something happens to your kid as a result of using excessive drugs while being influenced by the couple next door ? Would you blame them or who would you adjudicate responsible for the state of your child ?



Excuse me, but raising your kids is YOUR responsibility. Your failure to meet that responsibility should NOT be imposed on anybody who are free to live IN THEIR OWN HOME they way THEY choose.


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## Chogy

> Would you blame them or who would you adjudicate responsible for the state of your child ?



Blaming the neighbors, or especially blaming the State, is a cop out. I'd blame myself, then I'd blame my child, depending upon how old he or she is.

Along with less nanny State rules comes a need to take responsibility, both for myself, and for those who depend upon me.


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## Mabs

VCheng said:


> Excuse me, but raising your kids is YOUR responsibility. Your failure to meet that responsibility should NOT be imposed on anybody who are free to live IN THEIR OWN HOME they way THEY choose.


 
It sure is the responsibility of the parents to raise THEIR children but the parents can only do so much. As a parent I can tell my child about the bad effects of drug usage but what happens when he constantly sees people using drugs on his way to school everyday ? Are you so naive to assume that a parent's counseling and the moral conscious of a child are enough to stop him from doing something harmful ? The people on the street are not harming the child personally in anyway but are effecting him and the society on a subliminal level. These external influences are always there which play a significant role in the decision making process of an individual. How do you propose we deal with this challenge ? Shouldn't collective good supersede individual liberties ?


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## Mabs

Chogy said:


> Blaming the neighbors, or especially blaming the State, is a cop out. I'd blame myself, then I'd blame my child, depending upon how old he or she is.
> 
> Along with less nanny State rules comes a need to take responsibility, both for myself, and for those who depend upon me.


 
Yes you blame yourself to an extent but how can you not factor in the external influences that a child picks upon when he goes out and interacts with others ? Am I to believe that the neighbors constantly using drugs will have no affect whatsoever on a child just because he knows that it is bad ?


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## M8R

Honestly - It's a no brainier - I am very liberal person but i would never support legalization of Alcohol.I mean it's quite clear in Quran that it's haram so i don't honestly see the big issue with banning it.It should remain banned for good.Next thing we know the leftists will suggest we legalize rape/murder too since we can't stop it from happening.

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## VCheng

Mabs said:


> .....................Shouldn't collective good supersede individual liberties ?



No, since the road to hell is paved with that intention. Just look at human history for an enlightening lesson.



&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;1991239 said:


> .............I mean it's quite clear in Quran that it's haram so i don't honestly see the big issue with banning it..............



No, since the Quran says it is better to avoid it, it does NOT declare it haram.


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## M8R

VCheng said:


> No, since the Quran says it is better to avoid it, it does NOT declare it haram.


I didn't know that.So what is the difference between Haram Products and products which Quran says we should avoid?Or is the same thing?


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## VCheng

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;1991301 said:


> I didn't know that.So what is the difference between Haram Products and products which Quran says we should avoid?Or is the same thing?



Haram means uncoditionally forbidden, for example pork. Quran uses the term "perhaiz kero" for alcohol which is the same category as divorce, allowed but not preferred. The exact ayah have been quoted in this thread previously.


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## M8R

VCheng said:


> Haram means uncoditionally forbidden, for example pork. Quran uses the term "perhaiz kero" for alcohol which is the same category as divorce, allowed but not preferred. The exact ayah have been quoted in this thread previously.


 Thanks - I stand corrected.

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## Cloakedvessel

Although the type of punishment for drinking alcohol seems debatable (street justice doesn't seem right), the prohibition of alcohol is clear cut.

Alcohol NOT declared haraam in the Quran?


Question:

An aquaintance is insisting Alcohol is NOT outright declared haraam in the Quran... when quoted the explanation of sequence of revelation with the banning of alcohol in stages, he replies with the actual order of revelation of Surah's, which has Surah 3 first, then 4, then 5... with the first Surah stating "Will ye not then abstain," thereby nullifying the sequential banning of alcohol argument. Is there any response to this JUST using Quran alone? 


Answer:



May this find you in the best of states and Iman.

The prohibition of alcohol in our deen is an unquestionable reality questioned only by those who have no understanding of the Arabic language or basic principles of Islamic law, and no scholarly resources. 

The following should make the ruling of alcohol emphatically clear:



The great Qur'an exegete Maliki jurist and hadith scholar Imam al-Qurtubi says in his Tafsir (commentary of the Quran): 



The prohibition of alcohol occurred in stages and [after] many incidents, for they [the Arabs] used to love to drink it. The first [verse] revealed regarding the matter of alcohol was: "They ask you about alcohol and gambling. Say: 'There is great sin in both although there is some benefit for people" [Baqarah:219] i.e. [benefit] in their trade. Hence, when this verse was revealed, some people left [alcohol] saying, "We have no need for that in which there is great sin," and some did not leave it saying, "We take [from its] benefit and we leave its sin." Thereafter, the verse was revealed: "Do not approach prayer while you are drunk" [Nisa:43] So some people left it saying, "We have no need for that which distracts us from the prayer," and some drank it outside the times of prayer until the verse was revealed: "O you who believe! Alcohol, gambling, [sacrificing for] idols, and divining of arrows are only an abomination [of Satan's work]" [Maidah:90-91]So [alcohol] became prohibited for them such that some of them said, "Allah did not prohibit anything as strictly as alcohol." 



The saying of Allah (may He be exalted), "Avoid it", He means: "Stay away from it and put it aside." Therefore, Allah, exalted He be, ordered for these matters to be avoided. This, combined with [the use of] the imperative form ["Avoid"], the texts of the ahadith [narrations], and 'Ijma of the Ummah [ i.e.:the consensus of the entire Muslim nation], led to the "avoiding" [in the verse] to be [understood] in regards to prohibition, and by this alcohol was prohibited. 



There is no disagreement between the Muslim scholars that Sura Maidah was revealed with the prohibition of alcohol and it is a Madani chapter [ i.e. revealed in Medinah] from the last of that which was revealed [hence, it was not abrogated]. Furthermore, the prohibition of [consuming] carrion meat, blood, and flesh of swine [as] is mentioned in the saying of Allah, exalted He is, "Say: I do not find [in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden for a consumer who wishes to eat it except if it is carrion, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine]" [An'am:145] and [as is mentioned in] other verses, is by means of an announcement, whereas in alcohol [the prohibition] was stated with a command [to desist] and reproof and this is the strongest of prohibitions and the most emphasized. Ibn Abbas said, "When the prohibition of alcohol was revealed, the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah upon him, walked to each other saying, 'Alcohol has been prohibited and it has been made equivalent to shirk [associating partners with Allah].'" Meaning it was [mentioned] along with sacrificing for idols and that is shirk. Thereafter, Allah said, "So that you may succeed." So He made success conditional upon the command [to avoid alcohol] and this indicates emphasizing its obligation. And Allah knows best. 

[End of quote  Tafsir al-Qurtubi]



There are several important points Imam Qurtubi mentioned: 

1-the order of revelation, making it clear that that the last verse was indeed the one in Sura Maidah, and thus all previous verses were abrogated by it and it wasn't abrogated by anything. 

2-The language of the verse emphatically means prohibition. (Even in English, someone who drinks alcohol is not "avoiding it.") 

3-There is an 'Ijma  a consensus of all Muslims that alcohol is prohibited. Consensus is one of the basic principles which the Sacred Law is built upon, hence, when there is a consensus on anything and someone denies it, he is no longer a Muslim. 



Moreover, the prohibition of alcohol is considered to be from those things which are "known in the Religion by necessity." Meaning that any Muslim who is asked, be it a child or adult, learnt or not, he would know that alcohol is prohibited in Islam. Another example of this is the prayer every Muslim knows that the prayer is obligatory. Hence, anyone who denies that which is known in the Religion by necessity has left Islam. 



This abovementioned should be more than sufficient but just for additional emphasis 



From the Hidayah of Al-Marghinani:

That alcohol is prohibited in and of itself is not a result of [one being in the state of] drunkenness, nor is it [ i.e.: the prohibition] conditional upon it [i.e.: being drunk]. There are amongst the people those who deny its being prohibited by itself and say, "[Becoming] drunk from it is prohibited because that is what causes iniquity, which is [being] prevented from the remembrance of Allah, may He be exalted." This is apostasy for it is a denial of the Quran, for Allah [in the Quran] called [alcohol] sin and sin is that which is prohibited in and of itself. Additionally the Sunnah contains mutawatir * narrations from the sunnah that the Prophet, the peace and blessings of Allah upon him, prohibited alcohol, and upon this is the consensus [of the Ummah]The one who regards alcohol as permissible is [regarded as] a disbelieverbecause the prohibition of alcohol is definite. 

[end of quote]

*Mutawatir meaning an extensive number of narrations such that it is impossible for the reports to have been forged. In the case of the prohibition of alcohol, there are many narrations with the same meaning, thus making the meaning of the narrations [which is the prohibition of alcohol] mutawatir. 

And yes, we will quote some of these narrations even for those who 'JUST' want to use the Quran because using the narrations is using the Quran, whether they like it or not. Allah, Almighty and Exalted says: 



"Whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you from, refrain [from it]." [Hashr:7] 

"Say: If you love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and will forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger. If they turn away, then Allah indeed does not love those who disbelieve." [Imran:30-31] 



It is very important that this point be clear  we should never answer someone on the premises of "using the Quran alone" because it is an absurd fallacy. The Quran would never have reached us were it not for the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, so if someone doesn't want to use what the Messenger (peace and blessings be forever upon him), brought  he can't use the Quran either. Yes, the narrations in the sunnah have different levels of authenticity, from authentic to weak. Nonetheless, there are narrations that have the same level of authenticity as the Quran  the mutawatir (as mentioned above)  such that anyone who denies a narration that is mutawatir is like denying a verse in the Quran  it is disbelief. Likewise, denying that the Sunnah is a source of legislation is disbelief because it is direct denial of the verses quoted above.





Hence, from the collections of Imam Bukhari and Muslim, the narration of Anas, "Alcohol was prohibited for us", likewise the narrations of Ibn Umar, and Umar, may Allah be pleased with them all. 



This following is narrated by Imams Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, Nasa'I, and Ahmad: 



"When the prohibition of alcohol was [being] revealed, Umar said, "O Allah! Clarify for us the [matter of] alcohol with a clear statement," thus the verse which is in Baqarah was revealed, "They ask you about alcohol and gambling. Say: In them is great sin" So Umar was called and it was read to him and he said [again], "O Allah! Clarify for us the [matter of] alcohol with a clear statement." Thereafter the verse in Al-Nisa was revealed: "O you who believe! Do not approach prayer while you are drunk" Hence, the herald of the Messenger of Allah, the peace and blesseings of Allah upon him, would call out when the prayer was about to commence, "Let no drunken approach the prayer," and Umar was called [again] and it was read to him. He said, "O Allah! Clarify for us the [matter of] alcohol with a clear statement," so the verse was revealed, "so will you not refrain?!" Umar said, "We refrain." 



ALL of these Imams included a section on the prohibition of alcohol in their collections. As for those who do not accept the sunnah of the Messenger and they want to "use JUST the Quran"  they have no acceptance from Allah in this deen and have come out of the Light of Islam, peace and blessings of Allah forever upon him. 



What has been quoted here is very little compared to the vast literature on the subject, i.e. from all the scholars who have written about the prohibition of alcohol, but inshaAllah it should be more than sufficient for anyone in doubt. Those who would still deny the prohibition of alcohol after all this, it is out of their audacity to deny that which Allah has revealed in His Book and what He has revealed on the tongue of His Messenger, the peace and blessings of Allah upon him and so we say to them: Allah indeed does not love those who disbelieve. 

"Those who do not judge by that which Allah has revealed, those are the disbelievers." [Maidah:44] 



And Allah alone gives success. 



Waslaaam,
Shaista Maqbool 

Alcohol NOT declared haraam in the Quran?

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## nescafe

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the difference lies in the thickness of your wallet and the cells (or lackthereof in some cases) in the brain
> 
> 
> by the way, since when do nightclub bathrooms have couches? Where are you hanging out sir?



i said restroom, which is not specifically a bathing-room. its a place people come out to escape from the heat for a while. i may have been to cheap night clubs. but you have never been to any club for sure.


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## Mabs

VCheng said:


> No, since the road to hell is paved with that intention. Just look at human history for an enlightening lesson..


 
And you conveniently chose not to reply to the rest of my post. Probably it was below the intellectual frequency that you operate at. Enlighten me with the history that you talk of Sensei.


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## VCheng

Mabs said:


> And you conveniently chose not to reply to the rest of my post. Probably it was below the intellectual frequency that you operate at. Enlighten me with the history that you talk off Sensei.



Shifu the Sensei says: _"One must first master the highest level of kung fu, and that is clearly impossible if that one is someone like you."_ (Kung Fu Panda)


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## Mabs

Cloakedvessel said:


> Although the type of punishment for drinking alcohol seems debatable (street justice doesn't seem right), the prohibition of alcohol is clear cut.
> 
> Alcohol NOT declared haraam in the Quran?
> 
> 
> Question:
> 
> An aquaintance is insisting Alcohol is NOT outright declared haraam in the Quran... when quoted the explanation of sequence of revelation with the banning of alcohol in stages, he replies with the actual order of revelation of Surah's, which has Surah 3 first, then 4, then 5... with the first Surah stating "Will ye not then abstain," thereby nullifying the sequential banning of alcohol argument. Is there any response to this JUST using Quran alone?
> 
> 
> Answer:
> 
> 
> 
> May this find you in the best of states and Iman.
> 
> The prohibition of alcohol in our deen is an unquestionable reality questioned only by those who have no understanding of the Arabic language or basic principles of Islamic law, and no scholarly resources.
> 
> The following should make the ruling of alcohol emphatically clear:
> 
> 
> 
> The great Qur'an exegete Maliki jurist and hadith scholar Imam al-Qurtubi says in his Tafsir (commentary of the Quran):
> 
> 
> 
> The prohibition of alcohol occurred in stages and [after] many incidents, for they [the Arabs] used to love to drink it. The first [verse] revealed regarding the matter of alcohol was: "They ask you about alcohol and gambling. Say: 'There is great sin in both although there is some benefit for people&#8230;" [Baqarah:219] i.e. [benefit] in their trade. Hence, when this verse was revealed, some people left [alcohol] saying, "We have no need for that in which there is great sin," and some did not leave it saying, "We take [from its] benefit and we leave its sin." Thereafter, the verse was revealed: "Do not approach prayer while you are drunk&#8230;" [Nisa:43] So some people left it saying, "We have no need for that which distracts us from the prayer," and some drank it outside the times of prayer until the verse was revealed: "O you who believe! Alcohol, gambling, [sacrificing for] idols, and divining of arrows are only an abomination [of Satan's work&#8230;]" [Maidah:90-91]So [alcohol] became prohibited for them such that some of them said, "Allah did not prohibit anything as strictly as alcohol."
> 
> 
> 
> &#8230;The saying of Allah (may He be exalted), "Avoid it", He means: "Stay away from it and put it aside." Therefore, Allah, exalted He be, ordered for these matters to be avoided. This, combined with [the use of] the imperative form ["Avoid"], the texts of the ahadith [narrations], and 'Ijma of the Ummah [ i.e.:the consensus of the entire Muslim nation], led to the "avoiding" [in the verse] to be [understood] in regards to prohibition, and by this alcohol was prohibited.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no disagreement between the Muslim scholars that Sura Maidah was revealed with the prohibition of alcohol and it is a Madani chapter [ i.e. revealed in Medinah] from the last of that which was revealed [hence, it was not abrogated]. Furthermore, the prohibition of [consuming] carrion meat, blood, and flesh of swine [as] is mentioned in the saying of Allah, exalted He is, "Say: I do not find [in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden for a consumer who wishes to eat it except if it is carrion, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine&#8230;]" [An'am:145] and [as is mentioned in] other verses, is by means of an announcement, whereas in alcohol [the prohibition] was stated with a command [to desist] and reproof and this is the strongest of prohibitions and the most emphasized. Ibn Abbas said, "When the prohibition of alcohol was revealed, the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah upon him, walked to each other saying, 'Alcohol has been prohibited and it has been made equivalent to shirk [associating partners with Allah].'" Meaning it was [mentioned] along with sacrificing for idols and that is shirk. Thereafter, Allah said, "So that you may succeed." So He made success conditional upon the command [to avoid alcohol] and this indicates emphasizing its obligation. And Allah knows best.
> 
> [End of quote &#8211; Tafsir al-Qurtubi]
> 
> 
> 
> There are several important points Imam Qurtubi mentioned:
> 
> 1-the order of revelation, making it clear that that the last verse was indeed the one in Sura Maidah, and thus all previous verses were abrogated by it and it wasn't abrogated by anything.
> 
> 2-The language of the verse emphatically means prohibition. (Even in English, someone who drinks alcohol is not "avoiding it.")
> 
> 3-There is an 'Ijma &#8211; a consensus of all Muslims that alcohol is prohibited. Consensus is one of the basic principles which the Sacred Law is built upon, hence, when there is a consensus on anything and someone denies it, he is no longer a Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> Moreover, the prohibition of alcohol is considered to be from those things which are "known in the Religion by necessity." Meaning that any Muslim who is asked, be it a child or adult, learnt or not, he would know that alcohol is prohibited in Islam. Another example of this is the prayer &#8211;every Muslim knows that the prayer is obligatory. Hence, anyone who denies that which is known in the Religion by necessity has left Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> This abovementioned should be more than sufficient but just for additional emphasis&#8230;
> 
> 
> 
> From the Hidayah of Al-Marghinani:
> 
> That alcohol is prohibited in and of itself is not a result of [one being in the state of] drunkenness, nor is it [ i.e.: the prohibition] conditional upon it [i.e.: being drunk]. There are amongst the people those who deny its being prohibited by itself and say, "[Becoming] drunk from it is prohibited because that is what causes iniquity, which is [being] prevented from the remembrance of Allah, may He be exalted." This is apostasy for it is a denial of the Quran, for Allah [in the Quran] called [alcohol] sin and sin is that which is prohibited in and of itself. Additionally the Sunnah contains mutawatir * narrations from the sunnah that the Prophet, the peace and blessings of Allah upon him, prohibited alcohol, and upon this is the consensus [of the Ummah]&#8230;The one who regards alcohol as permissible is [regarded as] a disbeliever&#8230;because the prohibition of alcohol is definite.
> 
> [end of quote]
> 
> *Mutawatir meaning an extensive number of narrations such that it is impossible for the reports to have been forged. In the case of the prohibition of alcohol, there are many narrations with the same meaning, thus making the meaning of the narrations [which is the prohibition of alcohol] mutawatir.
> 
> And yes, we will quote some of these narrations even for those who 'JUST' want to use the Quran because using the narrations is using the Quran, whether they like it or not. Allah, Almighty and Exalted says:
> 
> 
> 
> "&#8230;Whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you from, refrain [from it]." [Hashr:7]
> 
> "Say: If you love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and will forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger. If they turn away, then Allah indeed does not love those who disbelieve." [Imran:30-31]
> 
> 
> 
> It is very important that this point be clear &#8211; we should never answer someone on the premises of "using the Quran alone" because it is an absurd fallacy. The Quran would never have reached us were it not for the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, so if someone doesn't want to use what the Messenger (peace and blessings be forever upon him), brought &#8211; he can't use the Quran either. Yes, the narrations in the sunnah have different levels of authenticity, from authentic to weak. Nonetheless, there are narrations that have the same level of authenticity as the Quran &#8211; the mutawatir (as mentioned above) &#8211; such that anyone who denies a narration that is mutawatir is like denying a verse in the Quran &#8211; it is disbelief. Likewise, denying that the Sunnah is a source of legislation is disbelief because it is direct denial of the verses quoted above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hence, from the collections of Imam Bukhari and Muslim, the narration of Anas, "Alcohol was prohibited for us&#8230;", likewise the narrations of Ibn Umar, and Umar, may Allah be pleased with them all.
> 
> 
> 
> This following is narrated by Imams Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, Nasa'I, and Ahmad:
> 
> 
> 
> "When the prohibition of alcohol was [being] revealed, Umar said, "O Allah! Clarify for us the [matter of] alcohol with a clear statement," thus the verse which is in Baqarah was revealed, "They ask you about alcohol and gambling. Say: In them is great sin&#8230;" So Umar was called and it was read to him and he said [again], "O Allah! Clarify for us the [matter of] alcohol with a clear statement." Thereafter the verse in Al-Nisa was revealed: "O you who believe! Do not approach prayer while you are drunk&#8230;" Hence, the herald of the Messenger of Allah, the peace and blesseings of Allah upon him, would call out when the prayer was about to commence, "Let no drunken approach the prayer," and Umar was called [again] and it was read to him. He said, "O Allah! Clarify for us the [matter of] alcohol with a clear statement," so the verse was revealed, "&#8230;so will you not refrain?!" Umar said, "We refrain."
> 
> 
> 
> ALL of these Imams included a section on the prohibition of alcohol in their collections. As for those who do not accept the sunnah of the Messenger and they want to "use JUST the Quran" &#8211; they have no acceptance from Allah in this deen and have come out of the Light of Islam, peace and blessings of Allah forever upon him.
> 
> 
> 
> What has been quoted here is very little compared to the vast literature on the subject, i.e. from all the scholars who have written about the prohibition of alcohol, but inshaAllah it should be more than sufficient for anyone in doubt. Those who would still deny the prohibition of alcohol after all this, it is out of their audacity to deny that which Allah has revealed in His Book and what He has revealed on the tongue of His Messenger, the peace and blessings of Allah upon him and so we say to them: Allah indeed does not love those who disbelieve.
> 
> "&#8230;Those who do not judge by that which Allah has revealed, those are the disbelievers." [Maidah:44]
> 
> 
> 
> And Allah alone gives success.
> 
> 
> 
> Waslaaam,
> Shaista Maqbool
> 
> Alcohol NOT declared haraam in the Quran?


 
This, for me has been a pure scholarly debate and I was unclear on the status of alcohol before this. The above mentioned points in my opinion very aptly illustrates that alcohol indeed is not permissible and answers almost all the questions raised by the people against it. If anyone has any scholarly proof to refute the above mentioned evidence, I would be very interested in seeing it.


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## VCheng

Mabs said:


> This, for me has been a pure scholarly debate and I was unclear on the status of alcohol before this. The above mentioned points in my opinion very aptly illustrates that alcohol indeed is not permissible and answers almost all the questions raised by the people against it. If anyone has any scholarly proof to refute the above mentioned evidence, I would be very interested in seeing it.



Absolutely correct to say that, since you can make up your mind, and let others make up their minds, based on evidence judged to be logically acceptable to each one.

In short, to each, their own.

So you see, there is no real issue here.

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## Pashtun Khan

Islamic republic of pakistan to Alcoholic republic of pakistan


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## VCheng

Pashtun Khan said:


> Islamic republic of pakistan to Alcoholic republic of pakistan


 
Well, consider that the learned and august *Federal Shariat Court* considered all the evidence before it rendered its verdict.


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## Pashtun Khan

lol people drink alcoholic there anyway, this rule will make no diffence at all.
just go to Karachi and you will know


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## FreekiN

Legal or Illegal.

Those who want it, know how to get it. 

Prohibition tends to lead to curiosity.


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## M8R

FreekiN said:


> Legal or Illegal.
> 
> Those who want it, know how to get it.
> 
> Prohibition tends to lead to curiosity.


Absolutely - We should legalize incest too.


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## Mabs

VCheng said:


> Absolutely correct to say that, since you can make up your mind, and let others make up their minds, based on evidence judged to be logically acceptable to each one.
> 
> In short, to each, their own.
> 
> So you see, there is no real issue here.


 
Well there is that little issue of establishing authenticity of facts, after all we can't both be interpreting Einstein's Law of Relativity our own way, can't we now ?


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## FreekiN

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;1991515 said:


> Absolutely - We should legalize incest too.


 
It's already legal in Pakistan. You know how many cousins marry each other in Pakistan yearly? 

Epic fail.

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## VCheng

Mabs said:


> Well there is that little issue of establishing authenticity of facts, after all we can't both be interpreting Einstein's Law of Relativity our own way, can't we now ?



No issue there either.

The only relevant _fact_ in this debate is that there are many possible interpretations of the Quran where alcohol is concerned. Also, you are wrong about Einstein's work too, since it is not the _Law_ but the _Theory_ of Relativity, which can be further examined by experimentation.


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## JonAsad

FreekiN said:


> It's already legal in Pakistan. You know how many cousins marry each other in Pakistan yearly?
> 
> Epic fail.


 
Unless the definition is changed Marrying cousins is not incest-



> Incest: The crime of having sexual intercourse with a parent, child, sibling, or grandchild


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## FreekiN

JonAsad said:


> Unless the definition is changed Marrying cousins is not incest-


 
It's just as bad. Enjoy your increased chances of genetic defects.


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## VCheng

JonAsad said:


> Unless the definition is changed Marrying cousins is not incest-



Well, you were too selective in defining incest. The correct definition is as follows:



> *Incest is sexual intercourse between close relatives that is illegal in the jurisdiction where it takes place* and is conventionally considered a taboo. *The type of sexual activity and the nature of the relationship between people that constitutes a breach of law or social taboo vary with culture and jurisdiction*. Some societies consider incest to include only those who live in the same household, or who belong to the same clan or lineage; other societies consider it to include "blood relatives"; other societies further include those related by adoption or marriage.

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## Mabs

VCheng said:


> No issue there either.
> 
> The only relevant _fact_ in this debate is that there are many possible interpretations of the Quran where alcohol is concerned. Also, you are wrong about Einstein's work too, since it is not the _Law_ but the _Theory_ of Relativity, which can be further examined by experimentation.


 
Lol, I purposely said Law and not Theory and you did exactly what I was hoping you would. When we are so precise as to call it a _Theory_ and not a _Law_, why leave the interpretation of the Quran to ambiguity ? When facts are presented to you, you either refute them or accept them as accurate, there's no room for I'll do what makes me happy attitude.


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## VCheng

Mabs said:


> Lol, I purposely said Law and not Theory and you did exactly what I was hoping you would. When we are so precise as to call it a _Theory_ and not a _Law_, why leave the interpretation of the Quran to ambiguity ? When facts are presented to you, you either refute them or accept them as accurate, there's no room for I'll do what makes me happy attitude.



Because the Quran is a divine text, and cannot be judged by rules of science and experimentation and logic?

Because religious law has always been a matter of interpretation, starting from the Hadith, which, by definition is Muhammad's (PBUH) interpretation of the Quran?

Because the Quran itself gives the right of _Ijmah_ to its followers as a means for updating interpretations by mutual consensus?

Because there is a wide space between rebuttal and acceptance, and even the Quran and Hadith accept that space?

Need I go on? (You really need to practice more to improve your "intellectual" kung fu!  )


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## AAtish

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;1991515 said:


> Absolutely - We should legalize incest too.


 
So shall the US remove Paedophile laws along with underage s** and some others.. they should also allow children to drink openly etc etc.

They don't do that.. don't know why?


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## AAtish

FreekiN said:


> It's just as bad. Enjoy your increased chances of genetic defects.


 
Hilarious .. if that was true, Muslims should be genetically defected all over the world.. where as i see more 'handicap' in England than i ever saw in my whole life in Pakistan ..


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## AAtish

VCheng said:


> Because the Quran is a divine text, and cannot be judged by rules of science and experimentation and logic?
> 
> Because religious law has always been a matter of interpretation, starting from the Hadith, which, by definition is Muhammad's (PBUH) interpretation of the Quran?
> 
> Because the Quran itself gives the right of _Ijmah_ to its followers as a means for updating interpretations by mutual consensus?
> 
> Because there is a wide space between rebuttal and acceptance, and even the Quran and Hadith accept that space?
> 
> Need I go on? (You really need to practice more to improve your "intellectual" kung fu!  )


 
 Only Mutashabihaat can be discussed.. clear or 'vazeh' orders cannot come under your definition..

Ahadees are not Prophet's (PBUH) interpretations of Qur'an.. these are his sayings to be followed.. interpretation means 'according to his understanding'.. He was always 'told'.. he never 'understood'..

Ijma is done on things which are not clearly mentioned and come under 'mutashabihaat'.. for example.. Is cig halal or haram?

Hope you are more clear on the concepts now..


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## JonAsad

FreekiN said:


> It's just as bad. Enjoy your increased chances of genetic defects.


 


VCheng said:


> Well, you were too selective in defining incest. The correct definition is as follows:


 
it differs from society to society-
The society we live in marrying cousins is not considered as taboo- plus chances of a genetically defective child according to


> A study by the National Society of Genetic Counselors says that having a child with your first cousin raises the risk of a significant birth defect from about *3-to-4 percent* to about* 4-to-7*



Statistically the difference is not big enough to cause a worry or for it to be considered as a taboo- 

btw on topic: the chances of becoming alcoholic addict is 5% and if one of the parents was an addict the chances increase dramatically to 50%.

I think people should be more vocal against alcohol consumption than marrying a cousin- and ban it completely-

Some alcoholic facts from the developed and literate american society-


> Currently, nearly 14 million Americans&#8212;1 in every 13 adults-abuse alcohol or are alcoholic. Several million more adults engage in risky drinking patterns that could lead to alcohol problems. In addition, approximately 53 percent of men and women in the United States report that one or more of their close relatives have a drinking problem.





> Alcohol contributes to 100,000 deaths annually, making it the third leading cause of preventable mortality in the United States after tobacco and diet/activity patterns.





> More than seven percent of the population ages 18 years and older -- nearly 13.8 million Americans -- have problems with drinking, including 8.1 million people who are alcoholic





> 3.1 million Americans -- approximately 1.4% of the population 12 and older -- received treatment for alcoholism and alcohol-related problems in 1997; treatment peaked among people 26-34.





> An estimated 6.6 million children under 18 live in households with at least one alcoholic parent.
> 
> About 43% of adults in the US (76 million people) have had a parent, child, sibling or spouse who is or was an alcoholic.
> 
> Two-thirds of the population consumes alcohol, but 10% of drinkers drink half of all alcohol consumed.
> 
> Alcohol contributes to 100,000 deaths annually, making it the third leading cause of preventable death in this country.
> 
> 41% of all traffic fatalities are alcohol related.




Of all the problems Pakistan as a nation is facing- this alcoholic thing should be the least we should look forward to making legal--

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## VCheng

AAtish said:


> Only Mutashabihaat can be discussed.. clear or 'vazeh' orders cannot come under your definition..
> 
> ................



So you accept that *not *everything in the Quran is crystal clear?

The Federal Shariat Court has included the use of alcohol in that area, since there is not clear order declaring it haram.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Ppl will drink be it legal or illegal.


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## AAtish

VCheng said:


> So you accept that *not *everything in the Quran is crystal clear?
> 
> The Federal Shariat Court has included the use of alcohol in that area, since there is not clear order declaring it haram.


 
Everything which requires to be cleared is cleared.. in Qur'an, Intoxication is Haram... so any thing which makes you unaware of difference between 'Good' and 'Bad' .. or in clear sense 'Naiki' and 'Badi' is Haram

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## VCheng

AAtish said:


> Everything which requires to be cleared is cleared.. in Qur'an, Intoxication is Haram... so any thing which makes you unaware of difference between 'Good' and 'Bad' .. or in clear sense 'Naiki' and 'Badi' is Haram



Agreed about intoxicants, but there is a huge difference between sipping a drink and being drunk. The Quran in its infinite wisdom rightly recognizes that aspect, and this has also been reaffirmed by the FSC.

Do you mean to to say that the FSC did not look at similar arguments carefully before rendering its verdict? If so, please challenge it to rectify the "error".


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## Xestan

I don't know if this verse has been quoted before or not, but it clarifies that Alcohol is indeed Haram in Islam.

*O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah ], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful.*

_Surah Al-Maidah [5:90]_

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## VCheng

Xestan said:


> I don't know if this verse has been quoted before or not, but it clarifies that Alcohol is indeed Haram in Islam.
> 
> *O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah ], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful.*
> 
> _Surah Al-Maidah [5:90]_



Alcohol, used in moderation, is NOT an intoxicant.


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## Dil Pakistan

*Forget what Federal Shariat Court or any other court said. Think what your conscience tells you and (most importantly) you can explain and answer to ALLAH on the day of judgement. 

Does any body think that he can stand in front of ALLAH and say I was drinking alcohol because it was not HARAM ? 

In Quran the orders are very clear about prohibiting from drinking alcohol and even it advised in a stern way. Therefore, no problems. Try and go through the BIYAN-UL-QURAN by Dr Israr Ahmed (available on Tanzeem.org).

This thread is total waste of time.*


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## Xestan

Self Delete


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## VCheng

Dil Pakistan said:


> *Forget what Federal Shariat Court or any other court said. Think what your conscience tells you and (most importantly) you can explain and answer to ALLAH on the day of judgement. Does any body think that he can stand in front of ALLAH and say I was drinking alcohol because it was not HARAM ?
> 
> In Quran the orders asre very clear about prohibiting from drinking alcohol and even it advised in a stern way. Therefore, no problems. Try and go through the BIYAN-UL-QURAN by Dr Israr Ahmed (available on Tanzeem.org).
> 
> This thread is total waste of time.*



The FSC took all that detail into account, so the verdict is important in that regard.

The Day of Judgment will take ALL of life into account, rather than just alcohol, so such fear-mongering is not need, and is counter-productive.


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## VCheng

Xestan said:


> Here you go!
> 
> It was narrated from Jaabir ibn &#8216;Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say when he was in Makkah at the time of the Conquest: *&#8220;Allaah and His Messenger have forbidden the sale of alcohol, dead meat, pork and idols.&#8221;* It was said:* &#8220;O Messenger of Allaah, what do you think of the fat of dead animals, for ships are caulked with it and animal skins are daubed with it, and the people use it to light their lamps?&#8221;* He said:* &#8220;No, it is haraam.&#8221; *Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: *&#8220;May Allaah curse the Jews, for when Allaah forbade them animal fat, they melted it down and sold it, and consumed its price.&#8221;*
> 
> _Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1212; Muslim, 1581. _



That is a _Hadith _narrated by a companion and documented several lifetimes later in another land, and thus interpretation by definition. *There is no such prohibition on alcohol in the Quran itself.*


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## S.M.R

So what is the end of debate? FSC was right or wrong...??

Btw.... What is exact verdict of court? Whipping or drinking, what has been declared haram?

Further, eating donkey's flesh is haram or halal or halam? If not haram then how much quantity we can take at one point of time?


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## VCheng

S.M.R said:


> So what is the end of debate? FSC was right or wrong...??
> 
> Btw.... What is exact verdict of court? Whipping or drinking, what has been declared haram?
> 
> Further, eating donkey's flesh is haram or halal or halam? If not haram then how much quantity we can take at one point of time?



The FSC verdicts outlaws whipping for using alcohol based on the fact that is is *not *_haram_, hence a person cannot be subject to the _hadd_ imposed for _haram_ acts.

If enough people think that the court got it wrong, then please challenge the verdict.


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## Xestan

VCheng said:


> That is a _Hadith _narrated by a companion and documented several lifetimes later in another land, and thus interpretation by definition. *There is no such prohibition on alcohol in the Quran itself.*


 
lol Nice one! It's funny when people like you don't want to follow a Islamic law, they make excuses like these, Qur'an clearly prohibits all the intoxicants and Alcohol is something which intoxicate, further, about Hadith, there are many hadith further explaining about the Haram thing.

if you don't want to believe it's your problem, These Hadith whether collected hundreds of years later have been proved authentic by all the scholars of Muslim Ummah, there's a study of Hadith which explains which Hadith is authentic and which is not, there's a a complete research, the top six most authentic books of Hadith were compiled following this reason and whole Muslim world have consensus on these books.

Some more Hadith, if you don't want to believe, at least don't come up with illogical statements which have no sense.

Hadith - Abu Dawood, narrated Tariq ibn Suwayd or Suwayd ibn Tariq [R.A] 

Wa'il said: Tariq ibn Suwayd or Suwayd ibn Tariq asked the Prophet about wine, but he forbade it. He again asked him, but he forbade him. He said to him: Prophet of Allah, it is a medicine. The Prophet [S.A.W] said: *No it is a disease.*

The Prophet of Islam Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

a. _In Sunan Ibn-I-Majah Volume 3, Book of Intoxicants, Chapter 30 Hadith No. 3371._
*Alcohol is the mother of all evils and it is the most shameful of evils.*

_b. In Sunan Ibn-I-Majah Volume 3, Book of Intoxicants, Chapter 30 Hadith No. 3392_
*Anything which intoxicates in a large quantity, is prohibited even in a small quantity.*

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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> That is a _Hadith _narrated by a companion and documented several lifetimes later in another land, and thus interpretation by definition. *There is no such prohibition on alcohol in the Quran itself.*


 
surah baqarah .. ayah 219.. clearly defines how the harmful effects of Alcohol outweigh its benefits.
If one was to look at the Quran alone.. you would start mirroring some extreme wahabi elements.

The practical implementation of the Quran is the sunnah of the prophet.
And the way we know of the Sunnah of the prophet is through his hadiath.. and he in his life forbade alcohol.
step by step.. but he did.. that too has lessons for those intending to convert non-muslims..
Do not enforce everything on them at once, bring them into the fold one step at a time.

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## VCheng

Xestan said:


> ..............
> 
> if you don't want to believe it's your problem, ............[/B]



Thank you. Please let me take care of my problems, and you take care of your problems. Just don't try to enforce your beliefs and interpretations on others.

Then everything is fine.


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> surah baqarah .. ayah 219.. clearly defines how the harmful effects of Alcohol outweigh its benefits.
> If one was to look at the Quran alone.. you would start mirroring some extreme wahabi elements.
> 
> The practical implementation of the Quran is the sunnah of the prophet.
> And the way we know of the Sunnah of the prophet is through his hadiath.. and he in his life forbade alcohol.
> step by step.. but he did.. that too has lessons for those intending to convert non-muslims..
> Do not enforce everything on them at once, bring them into the fold one step at a time.



Fair enough, but the fact remains that *the Quran itself does NOT declare alcohol haram*.


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## Xeric

Santro said:


> surah baqarah .. ayah 219.. clearly defines how the harmful effects of Alcohol outweigh its benefits.
> If one was to look at the Quran alone.. you would start mirroring some extreme wahabi elements.
> 
> The practical implementation of the Quran is the sunnah of the prophet.
> And the way we know of the Sunnah of the prophet is through his hadiath.. and he in his life forbade alcohol.
> step by step.. but he did.. that too has lessons for those intending to convert non-muslims..
> Do not enforce everything on them at once, bring them into the fold one step at a time.


 
After this post, the mongers should die!

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## VCheng

Xeric said:


> After this post, the mongers should die!



Fortunately, life and death are in Allah's hands!


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## AAtish

VCheng said:


> Agreed about intoxicants, but there is a huge difference between sipping a drink and being drunk. The Quran in its infinite wisdom rightly recognizes that aspect, and this has also been reaffirmed by the FSC.
> 
> Do you mean to to say that the FSC did not look at similar arguments carefully before rendering its verdict? If so, please challenge it to rectify the "error".


 
Any intoxicant is haram in even small quantity, just to protect unwilling overuse, if you start drinking e.g., with the intention of NOT losing your conscience and then a little 'saroor' makes you keep going until you are fully 'out of your senses'.. then you fall in the category of not knowing the difference between 'naiki' and 'badi'.. 

So, Intoxicants are not allowed, even in minute quantity, it is as simple as that..

Just my two cents..


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## VCheng

AAtish said:


> ....................So, Intoxicants are not allowed, even in minute quantity, it is as simple as that..
> 
> .................



No, it is as simple as reading the Quran in this particular case.


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## Dil Pakistan

VCheng said:


> The FSC took all that detail into account, so the verdict is important in that regard.
> 
> *The Day of Judgment will take ALL of life into account, rather than just alcohol*, so such fear-mongering is not need, and is counter-productive.


 
So you want to answer one question less or one question more ?


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## VCheng

Dil Pakistan said:


> So you want to answer one question less or one question more ?



The Day of Judgement is between me and my Allah, so why don't you let me worry about it? Many thanks for your concern about my well-being, but no thanks!


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## AAtish

VCheng said:


> Fair enough, but the fact remains that *the Quran itself does NOT declare alcohol haram*.


 
Fair enough.. It is not 'by name' in Qur'an.. and no where Qur'an says that 'alcohol is haram' or 'sharab is haram' as people claim...

Qur'an is a religious book and covers all aspects.. so it says about Khumr.. everything that 'intoxicates'..


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## VCheng

AAtish said:


> Fair enough.. It is not 'by name' in Qur'an.. and no where Qur'an says that 'alcohol is haram' or 'sharab is haram' as people claim...
> 
> Qur'an is a religious book and covers all aspects.. so it says about Khumr.. everything that 'intoxicates'..



And alcohol, used in moderation, is NOT an intoxicant.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hazrat Mohammad PBUH never drank... so how is it no haram? 


@VCheng....... dude u can drink if u want... who cares abt legal n illegal........... bootleggers r minting lots of $$ anyways!


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## Dil Pakistan

VCheng said:


> The Day of Judgement is between me and my Allah, so why don't you let me worry about it? Many thanks for your concern about my well-being, but no thanks!


 
I am not concerned about you at all. I only tried to clarify your confused arguement for you. Try and read your post day of judgement covering whole life and not one issue and then read my reply. It will become clear for you what i wrote.


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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Hazrat Mohammad PBUH never drank... so how is it no haram?



Oh my God! He never drove a car or travel by airplane! Did he smoke cigarettes may be? Let's break all the televisions and computers too! After all, Muhammad PBUH did not use them either.

So what is your point? 




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> @VCheng....... dude u can drink if u want... who cares abt legal n illegal........... bootleggers r minting lots of $$ anyways!



Actually, I don't drink or smoke or use any intoxicants at all, it may surprise you to know that.

To each his own, I say.

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## VCheng

Dil Pakistan said:


> I am not concerned about you at all. I only tried to clarify your confused arguement for you. Try and read your post day of judgement covering whole life and not one issue and then read my reply. It will become clear for you what i wrote.



Thank you. But I am quite clear in my thought processes.

And please leave my Day of Judgement between ME and Allah, as your Day is no concern of mine either!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> Oh my God! He never drove a car or travel by airplane! Did he smoke cigarettes may be? Let's break all the televisions and computers too! After all, Muhammad PBUH did not use them either.
> 
> 
> 
> And the plans n stuff were not present in tht time but alcohol was.
> So what is your point?



The point is tht alcohol intoxicates n is the mother of many societ ills.............. all muslim clerics have declared it haram.................................Hence i dnt think how it cant be not haram.............. 





> Actually, I don't drink or smoke or use any intoxicants at all, it may surprise you to know that.
> 
> To each his own, I say.


Yes u advocate its legality? lol


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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The point is tht alcohol intoxicates n is the mother of many societ ills.............. all muslim clerics have declared it haram.................................Hence i dnt think how it cant be not haram..............



So how do you explain the FSC verdict? They looked at all such arguments presented before them, did they not?

And why are you now using "clerics" after trying to use the Quran and Hadith to justify the ban?



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yes u advocate its legality? lol



All I am saying is the the Quran does not declare alcohol haram, and I do not question its wisdom.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> So how do you explain the FSC verdict? They looked at all such arguments presented before them, did they not?
> 
> And why are you now using "clerics" after trying to use the Quran and Hadith to justify the ban?


Thts my second post in the thread... Tell me just coz FSC says somethin means its true>?? while the whole muslim world considers it haram.......... Mohammad PBUH,sahabas etc nobdy drank... thn how come its halal?



A man was once asked why he did not drink, and he replied, 'By God, I am not happy with my mind when it is sound, so why should I corrupt it even further?' - The Seventy-seven Branches of Faith - Imam Al-Bayhaqi, The Quillian Press - (1996, ISBN 1 872038 03 4) - Page 31
Alcohol is detrimental to your health especially your liver. Alcohol befogs the mind and prevents rational thinking. Alcohol causes road accidents and innocent lives lost. Alcohol increases the occurance of domestic violence. Alcohol addiction causes financial ruin.
The Holy Quran, 2.219: They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider. 
The Holy Quran, 5.90: O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. 

The Holy Quran, 5.91: Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain? 





> All I am saying is the the Quran does not declare alcohol haram, and I do not question its wisdom.



It would be amusing to see drunk mullahs.. haha

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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> ...................
> It would be amusing to see drunk mullahs.. haha



No, not amusing. They are like regular drunks, only with beards. I have seen them too.

All of what you have said has been discussed in the previous pages.

The fact remains: *The Quran has NOT declared alcohol haram. It says to avoid it, and that is correct advice too.*


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## BATMAN

sur said:


> they r there *5:91 & 2:219*...!!!




Hi,
So here i'm with both references.
I agree it is recommended not to drink because of bad consequences ONLY.

Lets see one by one:







5.91
'It clearly says 'satan' wishes us to drink so that we make 'adawat' and 'bugaz' in society......'
My questions:
1- What about those who makes trouble in society without drinking wine? I think by virtue of Indian TV we only learn 'adawat' and 'bugaz' and this is what our new generation is learning.

Is it not much better to avoid such up bringing where we learn 'adawat' and 'bugz' without drinking wine?

2- How much one peg can un-sober you?

It is also clear 'satan' eventually wish us to be jealous of each other and be enemy to each other.
One ceremonial peg will not take away your senses and if inherently you are not a jealous person, you fail 'satan' even after drinking.
At the same time all men do not have same nature, therefore by rule it is discouraged/forbidden, what ever you believe.






The description of the 'ayyat' in above picture is self explanatory.
In the same sense many other things are non-recommended.

Does watching indian movie is recommended?

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## MM_Haider

a request to mods..  please change the title of the topic as it is misleading... FSC NEVER SAID THAT CONSUMING LIQOUR IS NOT HARAM.. THEY ONLY GAVE VERDICT AGAINST THE PUNNISHMENT OF EIGHTY WHIPS... IT IS HARAM AND IT IS PROVEN BY QURAN

even now a days Atiqa Odho is quoting this thread on her twitter account..


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## VCheng

MM_Haider said:


> a request to mods..  please change the title of the topic as it is misleading... FSC NEVER SAID THAT CONSUMING LIQOUR IS NOT HARAM.. THEY ONLY GAVE VERDICT AGAINST THE PUNNISHMENT OF EIGHTY WHIPS...
> 
> even now a days Atiqa Odho is quoting this thread on her twitter account..



*The FSC verdicts outlaws whipping for using alcohol based on the fact that is is not haram, hence a person cannot be subject to the hadd imposed for haram acts.
*


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## MM_Haider

VCheng said:


> *The FSC verdicts outlaws whipping for using alcohol based on the fact that is is not haram, hence a person cannot be subject to the hadd imposed for haram acts.
> *


 
DUDE THIS IS YOUR INTERPRETITION OF THE VERDICT. LET ME JUST TELL YOU ONE THING THAT IT IS HARAM JUST LIKE TELLING LIE, GAMBLING, EATING ORPHAN'S WEALTH, BACKSTABBING ETC BUT FROM QURAN THE PUNNISHMENT OF EIGHTY WHIPS IS NOT PROVEN AS PER FSC SO THEY ADVISED PARLIAMENT TO RE-CONSIDER IT.


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## S.M.R

MM_Haider said:


> DUDE THIS IS YOUR INTERPRETITION OF THE VERDICT. LET ME JUST TELL YOU ONE THING THAT IT IS HARAM JUST LIKE TELLING LIE, GAMBLING, EATING ORPHAN'S WEALTH, BACKSTABBING ETC BUT FROM QURAN THE PUNNISHMENT OF EIGHTY WHIPS IS NOT PROVEN AS PER FSC SO THEY ADVISED PARLIAMENT TO RE-CONSIDER IT.


 
The FSC decision doesn't say that liquor is 'halal' or they have allowed the same. They have just said that whips ('lashes') under hudood ordinance are not proven from Quran or Hadith, 'hudd' cannot be applied on a person who is victim of drinking.


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## VCheng

S.M.R said:


> The FSC decision doesn't say that liquor is 'halal' or they have allowed the same. They have just said that whips ('lashes') under hudood ordinance are not proven from Quran or Hadith, 'hudd' cannot be applied on a person who is victim of drinking.



No Sir: Please read the verdict of the court and its rationale.



> The Federal Shariat Court (FSC) has declared whipping for the offence of drinking as un-Islamic and directed the government to amend the law to make the offence bailable. *A full-bench of the FSC comprising Chief Justice Haziqul Khairi, Justice Salahuddin Mirza and Justice Fida Mohammad Khan gave the ruling on Thursday after hearing the arguments that the Holy Quran asks Muslims to stay away from liquor but does not specifically declares it Haram, or prohibited.*
> 
> The FSC had taken up a Shariat petition of Dr M. Aslam Khaki, who had challenged different provisions of the Prohibition Order (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance 1979, in which drinking was provided as Hadd, prescribing 80 lashes as punishment for the offence. Pleading the case, Dr Aslam Khaki argued before the FSC that the punishment of 80 whips was neither provided by the Holy Quran nor Sunnah, hence the offence should not be termed as Hadd. Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him), he recalled, had awarded only 40 sticks that too of a date tree to the offender, but not 80 whips. *Article 8 of the Prohibition Order (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance 1979 declares drinking liable to Hadd and suggests that whoever being an adult Muslim drinks intoxicating liquor by mouth is guilty of drinking liable to Hadd and shall be punished with whipping numbering 80 whips. Islam had declared some specific offences as Hadd which are heinous, but the offence of drinking is not a heinous crime, he argued. Though the Holy Quran has attributed drinking as both beneficial and also injurious but declared that its injury is more than its benefit. Thus the offence of drinking is not absolute Haram.
> *
> He contended that* Article 25 of the ordinance which provided punishment for attempt to drinking was violative of the injunction of Islam as neither Holy Quran nor Sunnah had provided any punishment for it. *"If a person makes an attempt to drink but withdraws, he should be appreciated but not be punished," he said, adding intention of commission of crime without any physical act was not a crime. *The court agreeing with the petitioner declared the provisions of 80 lashes as un-Islamic and directed the federal government to amend the relevant laws* to replace the punishment of whipping with sticks within six months by making it bailable offence. In case the government failed to amend the Hadd law, the punishment will cease to exist and become void, the judgment held.

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## jam master

VCheng said:


> *The FSC verdicts outlaws whipping for using alcohol based on the fact that is is not haram, hence a person cannot be subject to the hadd imposed for haram acts.
> *


 
hello vcheng, you dont even know if alcohol is haram according to quran

i suggest you not to comment in this thread because you are deliberately lying without knowledge


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## VCheng

jam master said:


> hello vcheng, you dont even know if alcohol is haram according to quran
> 
> i suggest you not to comment in this thread because you are deliberately lying without knowledge


 
Wrong. I do read and understand the Quran, and I think you should read the relevant _ayaat _as well as the verdict of the FSC given above for yourself.

And please remember that I have as much of a right to express my opinion as you do.

Therefore, it would be better if you could respond to the substance of my posts rather than trying to prevent me from saying my mind.


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## 53fd

This thread is getting pretty boring now... snoozefest...


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## fd24

bilalhaider said:


> This thread is getting pretty boring now... snoozefest...


 
agreed. Lets go for a drink and call it a day............( non alchoholic of course)


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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> agreed. Lets go for a drink and call it a day............( non alchoholic of course)



Nah, you guys go ahead, I think I will stay here for a while yet!


----------



## jam master

BATMAN said:


> Hi,
> So here i'm with both references.
> I agree it is recommended not to drink because of bad consequences ONLY.
> 
> Lets see one by one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5.91
> 'It clearly says 'satan' wishes us to drink so that we make 'adawat' and 'bugaz' in society......'
> My questions:
> 1- What about those who makes trouble in society without drinking wine? I think by virtue of Indian TV we only learn 'adawat' and 'bugaz' and this is what our new generation is learning.
> 
> Is it not much better to avoid such up bringing where we learn 'adawat' and 'bugz' without drinking wine?
> 
> 2- How much one peg can un-sober you?
> 
> It is also clear 'satan' eventually wish us to be jealous of each other and be enemy to each other.
> One ceremonial peg will not take away your senses and if inherently you are not a jealous person, you fail 'satan' even after drinking.
> At the same time all men do not have same nature, therefore by rule it is discouraged/forbidden, what ever you believe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The description of the 'ayyat' in above picture is self explanatory.
> In the same sense many other things are non-recommended.
> 
> Does watching indian movie is recommended?


 
dear batman, i ask you that in ayyat its written that through alcohol the devil makes a guy do bad things, so it means, when a person even drinks one sip, then the devil engages with him, so why you think that drinking to certain amount is not haram??please explain

the ayyats also mention to turn to prophets guidance, and we all know the story in which prophet strictly orddered the sahabas to throw down and smash their vessels of wine when the ayyats were disclosed to him??

there was reason to prohibit of any use of alcohol in islamic society, the ban was not allow muslims to engage with alcohol in the first place, if a guy drinks certain amounts he wishes to drink more till he lose his senses, the evil cannot be eridicated without cutting its entire roots


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## VCheng

jam master said:


> dear batman, i ask you that in ayyat its written that through alcohol the devil makes a guy do bad things, so it means, when a person even drinks one sip, then the devil engages with him, so why you think that drinking to certain amount is not haram??please explain



How about so many other things where the Devil engages the believer? Alcohol is the same, in that it is best to stay away from it, but it is not haram.


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## jam master

VCheng said:


> How about so many other things where the Devil engages the believer? Alcohol is the same, in that it is best to stay away from it, but it is not haram.


 
what do you mean by other things??, its haram to lye, its not like lye a little and its not haram but its best to stay away

are you joking or what??


----------



## VCheng

jam master said:


> what do you mean by other things??, its haram to lye, its not like lye a little and its not haram but its best to stay away
> 
> are you joking or what??



Does not the Devil test us through money, for example?


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## my2cents

VCheng said:


> How about so many other things where the Devil engages the believer? Alcohol is the same, in that it is best to stay away from it, but it is not haram.


 
According to my understanding 
divine and diabolical, 
love and hate, 
sacred and profane 
........................etc reside in you. 

You cannot have one without the other. They are all complementary. You will not understand the concept of light without darkness. Temptations are nothing but your desires. In the ultimate sense nothing is sin or haram. Its all about choices you make in life which lead you to heaven or hell on earth. Life is a journey of discovery(unknown) and experience(known). Peace.


----------



## VCheng

my2cents said:


> According to my understanding
> divine and diabolical,
> love and hate,
> sacred and profane
> ........................etc reside in you.
> 
> You cannot have one without the other. They are all complementary. You will not understand the concept of light without darkness. Temptations are nothing but your desires. In the ultimate sense nothing is sin or haram. Its all about choices you make in life which lead you to heaven or hell on earth. Life is a journey of discovery(unknown) and experience(known). Peace.



I respect your right to have your own set of beliefs and opinions about these matters.


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## Xeric

Amy Winehouse and the Perils of Alcohol Withdrawal - NYTimes.com

Now what?


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## VCheng

Xeric said:


> Amy Winehouse and the Perils of Alcohol Withdrawal - NYTimes.com
> 
> Now what?



Nothing.

The Quran advises to keep away from alcohol for good reasons, but does not declare it haram, even after Amy's death. What's your point?


----------



## jam master

VCheng said:


> Does not the Devil test us through money, for example?


 
through money one can buy alcohol which is bad and food which is good


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## VCheng

jam master said:


> through money one can buy alcohol which is bad and food which is good



....................or you can be tempted to earn it by haram means, or stay with halal ways of earning it. The choice is yours, and the Devil tempts you in many ways.

But money itself is not haram. After all, Muhammad PBUH himself used to prayed to be saved from poverty.

Similarly, the Quran advises us to stay away from alcohol because it has benefits, but losses too. But it does not make it haram.


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## jam master

VCheng said:


> ....................or you can be tempted to earn it by haram means, or stay with halal ways of earning it. The choice is yours, and the Devil tempts you in many ways.
> 
> But money itself is not haram. After all, Muhammad PBUH himself used to prayed to be saved from poverty.
> 
> Similarly, the Quran advises us to stay away from alcohol because it has benefits, but losses too. But it does not make it haram.


 
in ayyats its clearly the term used 'haram', so its cant be disputed whether its haram or not

drinking alcohol is haram, similarly, earning livlehood is not haram, and as you said, earning through bad sourse is haram


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## VCheng

jam master said:


> *in ayyats its clearly the term used 'haram',* so its cant be disputed whether its haram or not
> 
> drinking alcohol is haram, similarly, earning livlehood is not haram, and as you said, earning through bad sourse is haram



WRONG! IT does *NOT *say that, please see the relevant _ayaat _above in this thread.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

25 pages deep talking about alcohol during Ramzan......


----------



## VCheng

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> 25 pages deep talking about alcohol during Ramzan......



It seems to be an important topic I think!


----------



## Cloakedvessel

I don't know if it's posted or read yet, but I found this small paper and the arguments are very compelling regarding the issue of alcohol prohibition:

Prohibition of Alcohol (In The Light of The Holy Quran)

Hazrat Aqdas Maulana Shah Abdul Ghani Saheb
Phulpuri (Rahmatullah Alaihi)
Compiled By

Shaikh-ul-Arab Wal Ajam Arifbillah Hazrat Aqdas Maulana Shah
Hakeem Muhammad Akhtar Saheb
(Damat Barakaatuhum)
Special Attendant of Hazrat Phulpuri (Rahmatullah Alaihi)

Translated by:
Maulana Tameem Ahmad

Preface

This humble compiler states that about two years ago, an officer
attended the gathering of Hazrat Shah Abdul Ghani Phulpuri and he
asked him, Some officers ask me about alcohol claiming that the word
Haraam (prohibited) regarding alcohol is not present in the Quran then
why do the Ulama (scholars) declare it so? As an answer to that
question, Hazrat delivered a detailed lecture, which presented clear
evidence from the Quran regarding the prohibition of alcohol. Hazrat
asked me that this speech should be transcribed and published so that
our uninformed Muslim brothers who have this misconception could be
made aware as this speech was a blessing from Allah Ta`ala.
Therefore, in fulfilment of Hazrats request, this draft was
prepared and the officer who promised the printing and publishing of
draft kept it by him for approximately two years. Yet, due to some
circumstances, the officer was unable to print and publish it.
Nevertheless, some of my sincere friends during this period
continuously drew my attention towards the publishing of this topic but,
due to certain constraints, I was not able to start on this task. However,
when the appointed time from Allah Ta`ala comes for the completion of
any task then unforeseen ways and means develop on their own.
Yesterday, on the 26th of Ramadhan al-Mubarak 1382 AH, I
was passing Bruns Road, Karachi, accompanied by a friend who
mentioned that some of his acquaintances were discussing that alcohol
has not been declared Haraam (prohibited) anywhere in the Quran.
Listening to this conversation wounded my heart and made me feel
extremely regretful for my procrastination. With a wounded heart and a
strong yearning, this humble compiler went to Hazrat Phulpuri and told
him about what took place today, which had a major impact on me and
caused much restlessness along with a strong desire that I should spread
this topic regarding alcohol in the country as soon as possible. It is
hoped that those uninformed Muslims who are under this misconception
could be warned so that they may be granted the ability to repent from
the consumption of alcohol or at least have the correct knowledge so
they realize that alcohol is Haraam (prohibited) if they choose to
consume it. The benefit of this would be that their beliefs would at least

correct and the correctness of belief would eventually lead to the
hope of forgiveness after suffering the consequence of their sins in the
hereafter.
The object of this lecture is not to make the consumption of
alcohol continue intrepidly but the object is to save these ignorant
Muslims, who consider Haraam (prohibited) as Halaal (lawful), from
disbelief. It is a unanimous ruling in the Islamic Creed that to commit a
prohibited act knowing clearly about its prohibition is a grave sin and it
is strictly prohibited but to commit a prohibited act while considering it
lawful is an act of Kufr (disbelief) because such a person is deliberately
tampering with the Divine Law.
Hazrat Phulpuri (Rahmatullah Alaihi) then stated that it seemed
that this is the time of publishing this pamphlet because when Allah
Ta'ala, the Most Exalted, wills then such unforeseen events take place.
Hazrat also commanded that these events which became the reason and
grounds for the publishing of this pamphlet should also be written so
that Allah Ta`ala may grant the entire benefit from this pamphlet.
Humble Compiler
Muhammad Akhtar (May Allah pardon his sins)
Friday, 28th Ramadhanul Mubarak 1382 AH

Prohibition of Alcohol

They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, in both there is great
sin, and some benefits for people. And their sin is greater than their
benefit.
(Baqarah 2:219)

In this verse, Allah Ta`ala informs His bondsmen that alcohol
has more harm to it than benefit because the benefits are temporary but
there is no limit to the harms. Because when the intellect starts to
decline then so does the glory of human nature and it is due to the
intellect of humans that they are called Ashraful-Makhluqaat (Best of
all Creations). Therefore, the consumption of alcohol is as if losing this
honor and civility of humanity from your hands. This was the first verse
revealed regarding alcohol. Now if a scientist claims that the benefits of
alcohol are greater than the harms then we would call him ignorant and
unaware of reality because evidently the knowledge of the creation
cannot compete with the knowledge of the True Creator.
Allah Taala states:

And you are not given from the knowledge but a little.
(Al-Isra 17:85)

Oh People you are given little knowledge. Allah Exalted, regarding this
knowledge claims:

Does He not know what He created?
(Mulk 67:14)

Daily observations are witness to the fact that the research that scientists are content with today is refuted after a few days because of the detections of some errors within. They would continue to publish the
contradiction of their previous research. On the contrary, the knowledge
of the True Creator is free from any probable error. Allah Exalted
states:

And you will never find a change in Allahs consistent practice.
(Al-Ahzab 33:62)

For a Mumin (believer) a mandate of the Quran that alcohol is ithme
kabir (a great sin) is enough to prevent him from alcohol because every
sin whether small or great is a source of Allah Taalas disobedience,
and disobedience is a reason for His displeasure. Then how could a
Mumin (believer) endure the displeasure of Allah? The quality of a
perfect bondsman is:

Seeking grace from Allah, and (His) good pleasure
(Al-Fath 48:29)

Allah Taala states that Companions of Rasulullah (Sallellaho Alaihi
Wasallam) try to find Our Pleasure and Our Grace by searching for any
action that would please their True Cherisher all the time. The Quran,
while accepting the few benefits of alcohol, also expresses its abundant
harms. This is a clear evidence of the genuineness of Islam, for Islam
does not deny observations because denying established observations is 
futile. After the above mentioned verse, the following verses were
revealed regarding alcohol:

O you who believe! Wine, gambling, altars and divining
arrows are *****, made up by Satan. Therefore, refrain from it, so that
you may be successful. Satan wishes only to plant enmity and malice
between you through wine and gambling, and to prevent you from the
remembrance of Allah and from Salaah. Would you, then, abstain?
(Maidah 5:90-91)

From the above mentioned verse, the following points can be
established:

1 )

Taala informs his believing bondsman that they should not adopt the
customs of the disbelievers and that alcohol, gambling, idols and arrows
of divination are foul things and satanic acts. Wine is mentioned along
with gambling, idols and divining arrows to indicate what a foul thing it
is. It is placed before the foul deeds like gambling, idols and divining
arrows so it could be noted for its extreme impure nature.

O Muslims! Ponder on the fact that the consumption of alcohol is
mentioned with idolatry so that hatred for this deed could be developed.
This deed is closer to disbelief because alcohol prevents from Salaah
(Prayer) which is the greatest ritual and symbol of Islam. When people
are this distant from Imaan (belief) then eventually this will lead them
closer to Kufr (disbelief).

2  &#1585;&#1580; &#1587;
Allah Ta`ala declared the consumption of alcohol as Rijs i.e. a defiled
and ****** act. Glory be to Allah! What a psychological treatment! After
developing the natural aversion to alcohol (by mentioning it with
gambling, idols and divining arrows), the ability has now been
developed to accept and listen to the harms of alcohol. The wisdom and
eloquence of Quran cannot be encompassed.

Neither does His beauty have any limit, nor do Sa`dis
words of praise come to an end,
The seeker of water dies of thirst and the river remains as is.

3) 

Consumption of alcohol is a satanic act. O Muslims! Ponder on the fact
that we claim to be Muslims which suggests that we believe in the
Oneness of Allah Taala and the Prophethood of Rasulullah (Sallallahu
Alaihi Wasallam). If Allah Taala is declaring a certain act to be satanic
are we scheming to prove it Halaal (lawful)? Claiming to be devoted,
but acting like a rebel! By informing us that the consumption of alcohol
is a satanic act, Allah Taala illustrates how Satan disobeyed and
rebelled against Allahs Command and became the Rejected One, then
in the same way alcohol has a similar quality. This is because the
consumption of alcohol will develop the roots of intoxication,
disobedience and rebellion inside of you, and as a result of the
continuous presage of disobediences there is a chance to become the
Rejected One just like the Satan.

4)  &#1608;&#1618;&#1618;&#1608; &#1729;  &#1576;  &#1606;g &#1601;&#1575; &#1580;

So refrain from it! O Muslims! Allah Taala orders us to refrain from
the consumption of alcohol and has used the imperative command from
which the strict order of abstinence can be derived. Now every Muslim
can reflect on the clear order to refrain, for can there be any other
meaning to this? Like some ignorant Muslims believe that consuming
such an amount of alcohol that intoxicates is prohibited. Where, after
all, is the proof of such a thing in the Quran? Does anyone have the
right to contest the divinely revealed verses with their own opinions?

5) 

So that you may be successful. O Muslims! Allah Taala proclaims that
your success is only in the abstinence from alcohol so dont go near it.
Today, we believe that the secret of our success and prosperity is
dependent on alcohol. Muslims believe that if we adopt an Islamic code
of life, we would never be able to attain success. May Allah Exalted
grant divine guidance with His Mercy to all the Muslim leaders to ban
alcohol completely, Ameen!

6) Through alcohol, Satan develops enmity and malice amongst you. The
intellectuals of the times are united on the fact that any nation without
unity will not be able to attain glory and success. We all should try to
look deep within ourselves and wake our dozing conscience and ponder
that from which face do we claim to be the well-wishers of the nation
when Quran declares that consumption of alcohol is a source of
contention? Day and night the shout of, unity, unity is on our tongue
but as for the barrier in our unity i.e. alcohol, we are engaged in
scheming to make it lawful instead of preventing the consumption and
outlets of alcohol. Oh Allah, make the truth apparent for us and save us
from falsehood. Ameen!

7)

Satan desires to hinder you from the remembrance of Allah and Salaah
(Prayer) through alcohol.

O Muslims! Ponder over the message the Quran is conveying. Do
you prefer that you are made negligent from remembrance of the
True Cherisher and Salaah (Prayer)? No Muslim would ever be
able to prefer this. Then why are we embracing the consumption of
alcohol and not restricting the promotion of alcohol outlets? The
reason for this is that we do not have enough of a connection with
the remembrance of Allah and prayer as we should. Otherwise, why
would we not abandon those things that hinder us from His
remembrance and Salaah?

8) 

Would you, then abstain? The Quran is making us feel extremely
repugnant to alcohol from this topic. This topic is employed by an
affectionate teacher or a father at the time when he has whole-heartedly
warned about the harms of a certain foul habit. He then says, After you
have realized so many harms, would you then abstain? Similarly, when
Allah Ta`ala made His bondsmen aware about the numerous harms of
alcohol such as:

a.) It is such a foul object that it is mentioned with gambling, idols
and arrows of divination and holds the first rank amongst them.
b.) It is a defiled act.
c.) Its Consumption is a satanic act.
d.) It has been ordered to refrain from its consumption.
e.) You would not be able to attain success through its
consumption.
f.) Through it, Satan plans to instil enmity amongst you.
g.) Satan wishes to prevent you from the remembrance of Allah
Ta`ala and Salaah (Prayers).

After making us aware of so many evils and harms of alcohols, Allah
commands: &#1606;&#1614;&#1618; &#1615; &#1614; 
&#1618;  &#1615; &#1615; &#1618; 
&#1575;&#1614; &#1618; &#1618; &#1614; &#1614; Would you, then abstain?"

Every Muslim could now ponder on the above-mentioned verses and
see whether they prove alcohol as Halaal (lawful) or Haraam
(prohibited)? Is one ever guided to avoid and abstain from the lawful
and permitted things? Is the Quran, Allah forbid, a discourse of
someone insane?

"One should weep over this type of intellect and wisdom"

In a narration of Tirmidhi, it has been mentioned when the honoured
Companions (May Allah be Pleased with them all) heard,
&#1606;&#1614; &#1615; &#1618; 	&#1614; 
&#1618;  &#1615; &#1615; &#1618; 
&#1575;&#1614; &#1618; &#1618; &#1614; &#1614; would you then abstain? They immediately remarked,
&#1614;
 &#1614; &#1614; 
&#1575;&#1616; we have abstained. It is mentioned in another narration of
Bukhari that at that time (when this verse was revealed) the
Companions threw away all their remaining alcohol. The Prophet
(Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) even forbade them to drink juice in the
utensils in which alcohol used to be consumed to develop in their hearts
extreme hatred for alcohol.
Few ignorant people claimed that in the Noble Quran, the word
Haraam (Prohibited) is not present regarding alcohol whereas the
Quran proves about alcohol that:

1) It is impure.

2) It is a satanic act.

3) It is Ithm e Kabir (A grave sin).

4) Mentioned along with idolatry.

5) The imperative command, an order to refrain from alcohol.

Now the search for the word Haraam (prohibited) is purely satanic
crookedness and deceit of the lower self. For a person with a sound
intellect and a right mind, these topics of restriction and prohibition are
sufficient.
One day, I was reciting the Quran when I was inspired about the proof
of the prohibition of alcohol. I informed some of my acquaintances who
happen to be scholars about this topic and they were very pleased. The
argument was that Allah Taala commands in Surah A`raaf:

Translation: Say, My Lord has prohibited only the shameful acts,
whether open or secret, and (every) sinful act, and unjust aggression.
(Aaraf 7:33)

It should be understood with attention that this is the first case, on the
basis of the art of logic it is the minor term of a syllogism.
Now the next case which is proved by the second verse, &#1612; &#1616; &#1618;  &#1614; &#1612;  &#1573;&#1616; &#1618; &#1614; &#1616; &#1618; &#1616; is the second case and logically the major proposition of a syllogism.
Combining both of them, we get the result that with respect to the first
case that alcohol is filed under &#1617;&#1616; &#1614;  &#1605;&#1614; &#1585;&#1614; &#1617;&#1614; "&#1614; (My Lord had prohibited).

Understand the discussion above in an easier language that in one verse
Allah declares &#1614; &#1618; # &#1608;&#1614;&#1575; &#1616;&#1618; as prohibited under &#1614;  &#1605;&#1614; &#1585;&#1614; &#1617;&#1616; &#1617;&#1614; "&#1614; and then in another
verse proves that in the consumption of alcohol there is &#1612; &#1618; &#1616;  &#1614; &#1612;  &#1573;&#1616; &#1618; (a great sin) as in &#1612; &#1616; &#1618;  &#1614; &#1612;  &#1573;&#1616; &#1618;  &#1616; &#1618; &#1616; . Thus when Allah asserts that sins are prohibited then whichever object in which the presence of &#1612; &#1616; &#1618;  &#1614; &#1612;  &#1573;&#1616; &#1618; (a great sin), is stated then its prohibition can also clearly be proven to be a severe prohibition. This is such a plain argument that there is not a single ambiguity left in it. Moreover, regarding alcohol the emphasis of
nunnation in &#1612; &#1618; &#1616;  &#1614; &#1612;  &#1573;&#1616; &#1618; (great sin) is the proof that the consumption of
alcohol is a much severe sin than all the other great sins.

After substantiating the prohibition of alcohol (through the verses of
Holy Quran), to make a different interpretation of the obvious meaning
and to represent it falsely to please the inner self is a dangerous sin.
This act of impudence and disobedience is so extreme that it is feared
that it would be the cause of disbelief because it is established in
Islamic Creed that rejecting the final orders is disbelief. Such
meaningless type of interpretations employed here to make alcohol
lawful is the same as rejecting the final orders from Allah Taala.
Therefore, consuming, making, aiding in the production, buying or
selling alcohol is Haraam (Prohibited). May Allah keep all of us
Muslims in His Protection and make the truth apparent for us. Ameen.

O Muslims! Today those people who are striving to make alcohol
Halaal (lawful) should consider that the blessed Prophet of Allah
(Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) prophesized about this occurrence
fourteen hundred years ago:

Translation: Indeed, there will be in my Ummah such people who will
regard as permissible for themselves fornication, silk, wine and musical
instruments. [Bukhari]

Therefore, it is an occasion to be fearful.
Maulana Rumi (Rahmatullah Alaihi) says:

When He gives intoxication from the wine of His wrath,
Then the inexistent appear to become existent

May Allah Taala protect our intelligence from the wrath in the
intoxication of alcohol and grant us perfect understanding. Ameen.

Link of text (where you see the Arabic parts) :

Prohibition of Alcohol in the light of the Holy Quran by Hazrat Maulana Shah Hakeem Muhammad Akhtar Saheb (db)


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## VCheng

Cloakedvessel said:


> I don't know if it's posted or read yet, but I found this small paper and the arguments are very compelling regarding the issue of alcohol prohibition:
> 
> Prohibition of Alcohol (In The Light of The Holy Qur&#8217;an)
> 
> ...............................................
> 
> Link of text (where you see the Arabic parts) :
> 
> Prohibition of Alcohol in the light of the Holy Quran by Hazrat Maulana Shah Hakeem Muhammad Akhtar Saheb (db)



It is still only his interpretation, quite convoluted by necessity, since the Quran itself does NOT declare it haram.


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## FreekiN

For me, chocolate is an intoxicant.

Does that mean it's banned? 

Allaho akbar!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

so i wonder if any of you saw this thread, and then ran to a 5 star hotel somewhere to get a stiff drink --"knowing" that you were "in the clear"


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## VCheng

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> so i wonder if any of you saw this thread, and then ran to a 5 star hotel somewhere to get a stiff drink --"knowing" that you were "in the clear"



I would bet NOBODY changed their behavior about alcohol based on the verdict, or any of the subsequent pontification.


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## FreekiN

VCheng said:


> I would bet NOBODY changed their behavior about alcohol based on the verdict, or any of the subsequent pontification.


 
Agreed. Once they sip it, they're going to spit it out because it tastes like piss at first anyways.

Well, at least beer does.

I'm a heavy binge drinker. Bring it on, fools!


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## AAtish

VCheng said:


> And alcohol, used in moderation, is NOT an intoxicant.


 
Any intoxicant, even in small proportions is not allowed, less you overdose yourself to intoxication unwillingly.. this is not so difficult to understand


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## AAtish

FreekiN said:


> For me, chocolate is an intoxicant.
> 
> Does that mean it's banned?
> 
> Allaho akbar!


 
Do you lose your conscience? do you forget the difference between good and bad? if so, yes it falls under the same category for you.. as long as something takes you in a condition where you cannot distinguish between 'naiki' (good deeds) and 'badi' (bad deeds), it is haram for you...

Simple rule of tumb!

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## Captain03

intoxication is clearly banned in the quran. but like the quran says: the hypocrites will manipulate the words to match their desires

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## BanglaBhoot

*Hunter beer grabbing Bangladesh market*

Crown Beverage Limited, a sister concern of Jamuna Group, which is a large business and industrial conglomerate in Bangladesh introduced first locally made alcoholic beverage couple of years back. The company is also capable of producing various types of liquor, including 'Siraji' brand whisky.

Bangladesh's Narcotics Department issued licences to produce beer in the country. Jamuna Group has set up the brewery at Gazipur area, where they are now brewing and marketing Hunter Beer. The brewery can produce up to 100 million cans of beer a year. Annual consumption of beer in Bangladesh is approximately 300 million cans.

Actually, from way back Jamuna Group had been making "energy drinks" in the name of Crown and Hunter. The Narcotics Control Department had complained that the energy drinks contained excessive amounts of alcohol. Now, however, these are no longer energy drinks with too much alcohol content; Jamuna is now producing genuine beer. Bangladesh government lifted ban on production of alcoholic beverage, though any citizen in this Muslim dominated country requires 'license' to consume beer or any such alcoholic beverage.

According to the Narcotics Control Act 1990, no one can drink alcoholic beverages without a licence; no distilleries or breweries can be set up; no alcoholic drink can be produced, processed, carried, transported, imported, exported, supplied, bought, sold, kept, stored, preserved, displayed or used. Now the law have been amended to create scope for local entrepreneurs in producing alcoholic beverages.

The consumption, storage, display, advertising, sales, purchase and supply of alcoholic drinks are banned. But those holding a licence can do all this. However, a licence is required for consumption of liquor. There are about 80 thousand persons in Bangladesh who have such licences to drink and according to available statistics, on an average; these license holders are consuming approximately 160,000 litres of alcoholic beverage every month. The government is issuing 12,000 new licenses to individuals allowing them to consume alcoholic beverage. This is very little in comparison to the country's population. Even so, Jamuna is ready to carry on the beer business.

Hunter beer contains 5 per cent alcohol. The company started selling this brand since 2009. Officials of the Department of Narcotics Control said the company would be able to sell its beer to off-shops, bars, clubs and hotels that have a permission to sell. Earlier, international brands such as Heineken, Tuberg, Carlsberg, Lowenbrau, Elephant, Baron, Atlas etc brands were available in Bangladesh market. Though Crown Beverage is selling locally produced beer at the rate of US$ 0.80 per can [includes local taxes], foreign brands are also being sold in diplomatic and bonded warehouses in the country.

Crown Beverage is advancing slowly despite having a plant with a capacity of brewing 30 tons of beer a day with the major raw materials - malt and hops - being imported from abroad. The company is also setting a beer bottling plant soon targeting international market. The company is eyeing on the huge market of beer in the Middle East and other Asian-African countries.

Hunter beer grabbing Bangladesh market :: Weekly Blitz


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## wmdisinfo

lol they were drunk in the meeting instead of being called fedral shariat court FSC it should be called FDC fedral drunk court


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## khanabdullahafridi

Good for us Although the judgement is full of crap. This is THE punishment in the Islamic Law. Its implementation in Pakistan is a separate issue. We should honestly and simply admit the punishment to be unpractical in today's state of affairs rather than trying to justify and cover the non compliance by monkeying with the interpretation of Islam all over. In a country where the supreme court passed a similar judgment to abolish all interest based instruments in 10 years but backed off later by sheepishly agreeing that in today's integrated global economy, it is not workable, why can't the FSC just declare that whipping is no longer practicable as a punishment for alcohol consumption rather than declaring the core punishment in Islamic Juriprudence as 'Un Islamic" and make a mockery of itself. Don't try to re write the script, have the moral courage to defy it!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

well the choice is yours really....i mean, i personally think that the word "defy" has strong connotations behind it, no?


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## Zarvan

VCheng said:


> Haram means uncoditionally forbidden, for example pork. Quran uses the term "perhaiz kero" for alcohol which is the same category as divorce, allowed but not preferred. The exact ayah have been quoted in this thread previously.


 
For your kind information their are three different ayats for the ban of Alcohol because it was banned with time so the last ayat day it is banned not you just stay away from it and it is no where HALAL sorry you have taken the wrong meaning Talaq is halal but Alcohol is not


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## Zarvan

FreekiN said:


> For me, chocolate is an intoxicant.
> 
> Does that mean it's banned?
> 
> Allaho akbar!


 You are really funny man because chocolate a man doesn't losses control and it is not also very damaging to your health but by Alcohol a man loses control on his mind and can do very bad things


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Fair enough, but the fact remains that *the Quran itself does NOT declare alcohol haram*.


 
If the Quran is all that you hold dear.. then why even revere the prophet for an instant.
If he had no role , why wasn't Quran just bought down as a miracle on everybody??

Whatever the prophet practiced in his life.. he did so as an implementation of the Quran.
If Alcohol was not haram.. then why was it forbidden in the first place?
Is there any record to counter the hadiath that the companions of the prophet continued to drink after it was prohibited??

One can justify the need to consume liquor from here and there.
Pass up excuses.. but what has been laid down as law.. is law.
Ive had eggnog mixed with brandy in my childhood to cure congestion.. but that still did not make it halal.
And once clarified.. I never had it again.

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## VCheng

Santro said:


> If the Quran is all that you hold dear.. then why even revere the prophet for an instant.
> If he had no role , why wasn't Quran just bought down as a miracle on everybody??
> 
> Whatever the prophet practiced in his life.. he did so as an implementation of the Quran.
> If Alcohol was not haram.. then why was it forbidden in the first place?
> Is there any record to counter the hadiath that the companions of the prophet continued to drink after it was prohibited??
> 
> One can justify the need to consume liquor from here and there.
> Pass up excuses.. but what has been laid down as law.. is law.
> Ive had eggnog mixed with brandy in my childhood to cure congestion.. but that still did not make it halal.
> And once clarified.. I never had it again.



Ah, that is different.

The Quran did not make it haram, and Muhammad (PBUH) himself did not use it, I accept that. I also accept that it harms much more than it benefits. I myself do not drink.

Just don't misrepresent information, and make it worse by trying to force it on others. That is all I am saying.


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Ah, that is different.
> 
> The Quran did not make it haram, and Muhammad (PBUH) himself did not use it, I accept that. I also accept that it harms much more than it benefits. I myself do not drink.
> 
> Just don't misrepresent information, and make it worse by trying to force it on others. That is all I am saying.


 
But there is no misrepresentation.
Nor is there enforcement.
What is are stated records and facts.
Nobody is being forced to stop drinking..
but to declare it ambiguous when there is ample evidence that it was not preferred.. is incorrect.

The Prophet showed his dislike for alcohol.. but did not declare it Haram to allow for new converts to come in without being put off..
But most of these converts were made to eventually give up alcohol....
if it had not been disliked as such.. why stop those new ones from having it??


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> But there is no misrepresentation.
> Nor is there enforcement.
> What is are stated records and facts.
> Nobody is being forced to stop drinking..
> but to declare it ambiguous when there is ample evidence that it was not preferred.. is incorrect.
> Its like declaring that someone prefers that other people not sleep with his wife..
> or the he would blow the brains out of the person who does so.



"Not preferred" is correct. I accept that.

The whole thread is based on the FSC verdict, is it not? They did take into account the stated records and facts when they gave this judgement, right?

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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> "Not preferred" is correct. I accept that.
> 
> The whole thread is based on the FSC verdict, is it not? They did take into account the stated records and facts when they gave this judgement, right?


 
Either that.. or some people just wanted to drink and feel a little better about it.


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> Either that.. or some people just wanted to drink and feel a little better about it.



If one drinks and feels bad about it, then it is a clear indication that they should stop. Trying to rationalize or justify alcohol use is just as wrong as trying to ban it.

To each his own, I have said many a time, then leave it to that person and Allah.


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## Spring Onion

*Zaroor uss ki Tawajho ki Rahbari ho gee
Nashay main tha tau main apnay hee ghar gaya kaisay *
Yeh zahar mairay lahoo main utar gaya kaisay 

Main hosh main tha


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> "Not preferred" is correct. I accept that.
> 
> The whole thread is based on the FSC verdict, is it not? They did take into account the stated records and facts when they gave this judgement, right?


 
The court said it does NOT come under haad and whipping punishment is not correct for it.

and when entire Pakistan is having free for all tubs of liquor then whats the fuss about it since we can not implement the rules and laws so whats the use of yelling


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## Spring Onion

BelligerentPacifist said:


> ^Suicide is a crime? What is the usual punishment awarded?!


 
bwahahahhaa what punishment should they give to pieces of different body parts of the suicide bombers?


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## VCheng

Jana said:


> The court said it does NOT come under haad and whipping punishment is not correct for it.



... and the *REASON *it does not come under the punishment of _Hadd _is that is has *NOT *be declared haram by the Quran, as the detailed evidence accepted by the court shows.



Jana said:


> and when entire Pakistan is having free for all tubs of liquor then whats the fuss about it since we can not implement the rules and laws so whats the use of yelling



Dear Jana, that is another issue entirely!


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> ... and the *REASON *it does not come under the punishment of _Hadd _is that is has *NOT *be declared haram by the Quran, as the detailed evidence accepted by the court shows.







 but i am unable to understand does it matter if its haram or not? it ruins the health, it distrubes the soceity, family, personal life and so on .
heavy dirnkers are always shakey unstable and can not take decisions, can not differentiate between good bad and friends and foes.

khair oyeee that was emotional sermon.

am just wondering if people avoid alcohol just beacuse its haram ? if that is so then why dont they avoid sexual behviour? all those activities which come under haad ? why dont they avoid those? why just for sake of showing they are Muslims they show anger over status of liquor?



> Dear Jana, that is another issue entirely!



:p YEH just activate phone network and you can get every kind of sharab even in Peshawar.


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## thegreensprite

Xestan said:


> What a pathetic judgement. I hope Islamic Ideology Council takes some action!



I don't get this, why should the IIC get involved in this again? We need to move away from these extremist practices as this affects everybody on all levels of society. If somebody is a Muslim and he drinks, so what, it shouldn't be the governments job to police personal habits. Why is alcohol brewed in Pakistan if people hate it so much?


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## Spring Onion

thegreensprite said:


> I don't get this, why should the IIC get involved in this again? We need to move away from these extremist practices as this affects everybody on all levels of society. If somebody is a Muslim and he drinks, so what, it shouldn't be the governments job to police personal habits. Why is alcohol brewed in Pakistan if people hate it so much?


 
either you are ignorant or naive enough not to differntiate between personal life and rules and laws .

in your own country go and check there are rules and laws for liquor too.


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## VCheng

Jana said:


> but i am unable to understand does it matter if its haram or not? it ruins the health, it distrubes the soceity, family, personal life and so on .
> heavy dirnkers are always shakey unstable and can not take decisions, can not differentiate between good bad and friends and foes.
> 
> khair oyeee that was emotional sermon.
> 
> am just wondering if people avoid alcohol just beacuse its haram ? if that is so then why dont they avoid sexual behviour? all those activities which come under haad ? why dont they avoid those? why just for sake of showing they are Muslims they show anger over status of liquor?
> 
> 
> 
> :p YEH just activate phone network and you can get every kind of sharab even in Peshawar.



Yes, I do agree with you that the harm of using alcohol is much greater than its benefits. However, that should be left to the users or non-users to decide if, when and how much to use. Just remove legal incentive for the mullah's interference in people's lives in this matter.


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## FreekiN

Narrated by Gaber bin Abdullah:
We were with the messenger of Allah, PBUH and he asked for a drink. One of his men said: "Oh Messenger of Allah, Can we offer you wine to drink?" He said Yes. He (Gaber) went out looking for the drink and came back with a cup of wine. The messenger (Peace Be Upon him) asked, &#8220;Have you covered it with a twig in a transverse manner&#8221; He (Gaber) said, &#8220;Yes&#8221; and he (Muhammad) drank.
Sahih Muslim - Hadith #3753


Narrated by Abdullah bin Masoud (May God be pleased with him):
He was with the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him on the night of the jinn when he asked him if he had water. He answered that he had wine in a pot. Mohammed said: Pour me some to do ablution and he did. [The] Prophet peace be upon him [said]: "O Abdullah bin Masood it is a drink and a purifier."
Musnad Ahmad - Hadith #3594


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## VCheng

FreekiN said:


> Narrated by Gaber bin Abdullah:
> We were with the messenger of Allah, PBUH and he asked for a drink. One of his men said: "Oh Messenger of Allah, Can we offer you wine to drink?" He said Yes. He (Gaber) went out looking for the drink and came back with a cup of wine. The messenger (Peace Be Upon him) asked, &#8220;Have you covered it with a twig in a transverse manner&#8221; He (Gaber) said, &#8220;Yes&#8221; and he (Muhammad) drank.
> Sahih Muslim - Hadith #3753
> 
> 
> Narrated by Abdullah bin Masoud (May God be pleased with him):
> He was with the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him on the night of the jinn when he asked him if he had water. He answered that he had wine in a pot. Mohammed said: Pour me some to do ablution and he did. [The] Prophet peace be upon him [said]: "O Abdullah bin Masood it is a drink and a purifier."
> Musnad Ahmad - Hadith #3594



There are many such _ahadith _too, but they are not regarded as robustly as many others indicating Muhammad PBUH himself did not partake.


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## BanglaBhoot

VCheng said:


> Ah, that is different.
> 
> The Quran did not make it haram, and Muhammad (PBUH) himself did not use it, I accept that. I also accept that it harms much more than it benefits. I myself do not drink.
> 
> Just don't misrepresent information, and make it worse by trying to force it on others. That is all I am saying.


 
The first source of law is the Quran which has not clearly or specifically made drink haram. Similarly Muhammad (PBUH) did not use alcohol but this is only a second source of the law and is not entirely clear. It may have been Muhammad's (PBUH) preference not to drink but this does not make it haram. Only the Quran can make a thing haram and where the Quran omit to mention something then only through analogy can a thing be made haram. Since the Quran does mention drink but has not made it haram it cannot be made haram through analogy. One cannot usurp the role of the Qurna as the prime source of morality and law.

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## T-Faz

I think that the FSC members were drinking when they said this.


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## T-Faz

VCheng said:


> There are many such _ahadith _too, but they are not regarded as robustly as many others indicating Muhammad PBUH himself did not partake.


 
Ahadith are further elaborations for the verses of the Quran, real examples that can be used to provide an insight and give clear indication of what is meant by the verse.

Such hadith have no factual backing for their authenticity.

Edit: I am addressing Freekin, not VCheng, replied to the wrong post by mistake.


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## BATMAN

jam master said:


> dear batman, i ask you that in ayyat its written that through alcohol the devil makes a guy do bad things, so it means, when a person even drinks one sip, then the devil engages with him, so why you think that drinking to certain amount is not *haram*??please explain


Hi,
You are stating what you believe, without engaging the context.

Anyhow, In the whole debate 'haraam' is the key word.

I have the feeling, the actual meaning of the word itself are not clear to us!

IMO... 'haraam' is something, which is not tolerated in Islam, even a drop of it or bit of it in any circumstances and such are clearly identified in Quran from day one. e.g. 'shirk' and &#8216;Hadith&#8217; only reconfirms it.
While some other acts clearly declared &#8216;haraam&#8217; are even made &#8216;halal&#8217; in certain conditions. e.g. in condition of life and death. e.g. pork meat.
Where as some acts are declared as sins equivalent to &#8216;haraam&#8217; e.g. &#8216;bribery&#8217;
While some are advised to abstain but not stated as &#8216;haraam&#8217; for such cases IMO equating them &#8216;allowed&#8217; or &#8216;haraam&#8217; both would be wrong.
For better understanding in such case, we have to understand the context, where &#8216;abstain&#8217; is stated and in present case the context is a harmony and peace of society.
(P.S.:I have posted the Ayyats for every one to read the context and explanation&#8230;. as well.)
While, it comes to make rule or redefine&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;be careful not to replace the words &#8216;abstain&#8217; to &#8216;haraam&#8217;
To understand the difference&#8230;. now, gauge the state of &#8216;khumar&#8217; in terms of various punishments for various crimes in Islamic history.
I take one comparative example&#8230; Killing is the biggest crime and punishment is death but still forgivable if &#8216;Deet&#8217; amount paid... hence technically the crime will not be punished anymore on judgment day!
While lashes for drinking are no where mentioned in Quran.

Same goes while we prepare Islamic law&#8230;. Quran shall be consulted not &#8216;Hadith&#8217; and amusingly in Islamic state laws are equal for both Muslim and non-Muslim while in the laws of &#8216;Islamic republic of Pakistan&#8217; drinking is allowed for non-Muslims and not allowed for Muslims!!!!!!

Here, I must say&#8230; appointing murderer as your president while criticizing a drunkard is hypocrisy&#8230; but this does not imply drinking is &#8216;permitted&#8217;.

IMO... we cannot take 'abstain' and 'haraam' in same context&#8230; and violating what is advised as &#8216;abstain&#8217; can be only defined by the degree of abuse. 
example.. &#8216;abstain&#8217; is advised from 'divorce' but doing it without valid reason&#8230;.. is wrong and many more examples...

Note,,,, the word used in Quran is 'KHUMAR' and many things may lead to mild &#8216;khumar&#8217; i.e. loosing sense of good and bad for few hours.
IMO... watching indian TV is equal to intoxicating a child&#8217;s brain, where he loose sense of good and bad for ever.
Who is going to stop it???? Who is going to raise voice?
Corruption lead to destruction of economy and society.... and we practice it in front of our children but we may well tell them wine is 'forbidden'!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What we forget in doing so is&#8230;&#8230;. one day that child will grow up and in process either will adopt to such hypocrite beleifs or will loose respect for his hypocrite elders.

I AGREE, Quran advised avoid getting in state of 'khumar' (by any means) but what is the point if my children believe 'hunuman' as an avatar of god?



> the ayyats also mention to* turn to prophets guidance*, and we all know the story in which prophet strictly orddered the sahabas to throw down and smash their vessels of wine when the ayyats were disclosed to him??


Prophet's guidance... fine but where is prophets guidance written? I agree when prophet was alive he was source of guidance but today it if his written guidance do not confirm what is written in Quran than to whom shall we ask?

Becareful&#8230;. I have read narratives (only Allah knows the truth) in news that UK has been running Islamic seminaries as old as more than 100 years before... where youth were only taught about various 'Hadith' books!! 
I even read accounts of non Muslims from some states working as imams in Pakistani Mosques.... what were they promoting 'Quran' no such elements promote non Quran Islam ....... so be careful out there...



> there was reason to prohibit of any use of alcohol in islamic society, the ban was not allow muslims to engage with alcohol in the first place, if a guy drinks certain amounts he wishes to drink more till he lose his senses, the evil cannot be eridicated without cutting its entire roots


Excess of any thing is 'haraam'


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## JonAsad

VCheng said:


> Alcohol, used in moderation, is NOT an intoxicant.


 
God has forbidden us from Zina- Going by your logic is it alright to Kiss or have a hot foreplay session with another girl?-

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## jam master

thegreensprite said:


> I don't get this, why should the IIC get involved in this again? We need to move away from these extremist practices as this affects everybody on all levels of society. If somebody is a Muslim and he drinks, so what, it shouldn't be the governments job to police personal habits. Why is alcohol brewed in Pakistan if people hate it so much?


 
so it should be a problem if drugs are used, policing the people who use drugs is wrong too

also policing the internal matters of families and social services is wrong too, you should understand the concept before blindly licking the goras


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## VCheng

JonAsad said:


> God has forbidden us from Zina- Going by your logic is it alright to Kiss or have a hot foreplay session with another girl?-



*No*. We are talking about only alcohol here. I could discuss this further but why take the thread off-topic?

My logic refers to exactly what the Quran says, no more, no less, for alcohol. Simple.


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## Zarvan

VCheng said:


> *No*. We are talking about only alcohol here. I could discuss this further but why take the thread off-topic?
> 
> My logic refers to exactly what the Quran says, no more, no less, for alcohol. Simple.


 
Sir about Alcohal Islam says don't even go close to it you can't drink a single drop because a man is very much capable of start drinking it in great amount


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## VCheng

Zarvan said:


> Sir about Alcohal Islam says don't even go close to it you can't drink a single drop because a man is very much capable of start drinking it in great amount



Your statement indicates an incomplete and incorrect understanding of what Islam says about alcohol, and indeed about alcohol itself.


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## Mabs

VCheng said:


> Because the Quran is a divine text, and cannot be judged by rules of science and experimentation and logic?


Actually, there have been many studies which have proven that Quran is compatible with the modem concepts of science. Research into, it's never too late to learn.


VCheng said:


> Because religious law has always been a matter of interpretation, starting from the Hadith, which, by definition is Muhammad's (PBUH) interpretation of the Quran?


NO, I am afraid you are wrong. Hadith is not the Muhammad's (PBUH) intepretation of the Quran. Quran's phraseology and vocabulary is far superior to the everyday spoken Arabic and thus needed the prophet to explain it to the people to avoid contradictions and ensure clarity. God in the Quran says: " Take what the prophet gives you and leave what he forbids you(Not Literal Translation)". If God had this much faith in the prophet's ability to eloquently deliver his message to the people, then I guess I'll have a lil faith too. What you do is your own prerogative. 



VCheng said:


> Because the Quran itself gives the right of _Ijmah_ to its followers as a means for *updating interpretations* by mutual consensus?


You are either severely misinformed or acutely misled. Ijmah can not be done to overrule an established fact. You can not declare Zakat as voluntary and not obligatory through the process of Ijmah. Also, Ijamh can only be done to deal with the issues which arise with the passage of time and were not present when the Quran was being revealed. Furthermore, Ijmah is done in the light of knowledge which is already present and the rules which have already been laid down. For example to determine if Ecstasy and LSD are Halal or not, an Ijamh can be performed as these drugs are the inventions of modern times. However the process of ijmah will be based on information already available in the religion and the ruling on substances which fall in the same category as Ecstasy and LSD.



VCheng said:


> Because there is a wide space between rebuttal and acceptance, and even the Quran and Hadith accept that space?


Only when the ruling is unclear or murky. When the status of something is established in the religion, then there is no room for your own interpretation.


VCheng said:


> Need I go on? (You really need to practice more to improve your "intellectual" kung fu!  )



I apologize for the delayed reply, was practicing my kung fu.


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## VCheng

Mabs said:


> Actually, there have been many studies which have proven that Quran is compatible with the modem concepts of science. Research into, it's never too late to learn.



We are not talking about the same thing. Dogma is different than science, since dogma is not a hypothesis that can be tested by experimentation by definition.



Mabs said:


> NO, I am afraid you are wrong. Hadith is not the Muhammad's (PBUH) intepretation of the Quran. Quran's phraseology and vocabulary is far superior to the everyday spoken Arabic and thus needed the prophet to explain it to the people to avoid contradictions and ensure clarity. God in the Quran says: " Take what the prophet gives you and leave what he forbids you(Not Literal Translation)". If God had this much faith in the prophet's ability to eloquently deliver his message to the people, then I guess I'll have a lil faith too. *What you do is your own prerogative.*



Thank you, that is exactly correct. I will respect your prerogatives to practice and believe whatever you like as long my right to do the same for myself is respected.

Even the clarifications of the Sunnah are not consistent. For example, there are many different ways of saying namaz as can be witnessed inside Al-Haram Al-Sharif, and they all lay claim to be following Rasul Allah's methods as were shown by him as one time or another.



Mabs said:


> You are either severely misinformed or acutely misled. *Ijmah can not be done to overrule an established fact.* You can not declare Zakat as voluntary and not obligatory through the process of Ijmah. Also, Ijamh can only be done to deal with the issues which arise with the passage of time and were not present when the Quran was being revealed. Furthermore, Ijmah is done in the light of knowledge which is already present and the rules which have already been laid down. For example to determine if Ecstasy and LSD are Halal or not, an Ijamh can be performed as these drugs are the inventions of modern times. However the process of ijmah will be based on information already available in the religion and the ruling on substances which fall in the same category as Ecstasy and LSD.



But that is the whole point: It was established by the FSC, based on the evidence presented before it, that alcohol is NOT haram. You may disagree, but at least you *cannot *claim the ban on alcohol as "established".

Please note that I have carefully defined my position in this thread, since all other examples, such as Zakat, that are being used, I agree with, because the clarity of the Quran is definitive in those cases.



Mabs said:


> Only when the ruling is unclear or murky. When the status of something is established in the religion, then there is no room for your own interpretation.



I reiterate the above: Quran has NOT "established" alcohol as haram.



Mabs said:


> I apologize for the delayed reply, was practicing my kung fu.



.......... and the improvement is to be appreciated. Many thanks for continuing to participate.


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## Myth_buster_1

Pakistanis should not have any problem with Politicians drinking liquor since their founding fathers were addicted to it.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Pakistanis should not have any problem with Politicians drinking liquor since their founding fathers were addicted to it.


 
do you have proof that they were "addicts" (i.e. alcoholics?) ??


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## T-Faz

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> do you have proof that they were "addicts" (i.e. alcoholics?) ??


 
Don't waste your time with him, he is against the creation of Pakistan and our founding fathers for creating because of his Ummah.

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## Pride

"Thukrao abki pyaar karo Main nashe mein hoon". I dont know why such a long discussion on this topic as who drinks will get an excuse for same while thos who never tried religious will be arch against of it. And then finally there is no "Absolute truth" in this world


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## Zarvan

Pride said:


> "Thukrao abki pyaar karo Main nashe mein hoon". I dont know why such a long discussion on this topic as who drinks will get an excuse for same while thos who never tried religious will be arch against of it. And then finally there is no "Absolute truth" in this world


 
Their is Absolute truth and that is truth of ISLAM which is spread fast


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## forcetrip

That is your absolute truth and you have to share the world with other people who consider you as a liar. So the best way would be that you have your truths and let others have theirs. How much more simpler can life be.

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## WHF

sur said:


> -
> -
> 
> -
> -
> 
> No smoking is NOT just as bad...
> 
> Smoking is hurtful for ur person mostly,,, drinking mostly hurts *society* other than ur person ,,, *Rapes & driving accidents & murders* ... individual cases don't count, rather we have to look at statistical data. Watch western local channels, every day ppl die from alcohol related incidences...


 
and what about the passive smokers??there are rules/laws for rage driving,drunk and drive etc but no laws for passive smoking??why??smoking kills 100 times more ppl than drinking does..if u have problm with drunk and drive related accidents why not ban driving..


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## T-Faz

This ad was recently plastered all over Express Tribune and Daily Times.







Presenting *Saudi Champagne* (100% Halam) from Al-Hilal Industries.

I guess drinking is legal now, .

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## Pride

Zarvan said:


> Their is Absolute truth and that is truth of ISLAM which is spread fast


 
Wrong.. This is Your Truth, My truth is different from yours and How hard you try, you cant change my truth.


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## muse

> There are many such ahadith too, but they are not regarded as robustly as many others indicating Muhammad PBUH himself did not partake.




VC
Indeed - but why is it so important that we must find that the beloved prophet did not partake? Is Islam the totality of the prophet's behaviors, likes and dislikes?, So what if on that occasion he did partake, how does that alter the debate? For instance, consider the 4 wives business, should we not look at the CULTURAL and HISTORIC context of that, even as we compare that prophet had more than four? Shall we follow that example??

Should we not take greater care to filter out the cultural context of 7th century Arabian society, to arrive at a universal Islam?

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## untitled

muse said:


> Should we not take greater care to filter out the cultural context of 7th century Arabian society, to arrive at a universal Islam?



Yes as good Muslims we should try to emulate the Prophet PBUH..... His whole life was emulating the Quran... If you are a Muslim you should know that

Yup having 4 wives is wrong, old and 7th century Arabic custom .... having 50 gfs instead is modern hip, chic and the in thing today

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## T-Faz

varigeo said:


> Yes as good Muslims we should try to emulate the Prophet PBUH..... His whole life was emulating the Quran... If you are a Muslim you should know that
> 
> Yup having 4 wives is wrong, old and 7th century Arabic custom .... *having 50 gfs instead is modern hip, chic and the in thing today*


 
Who's got 50 GF's?


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## untitled

T-Faz said:


> Who's got 50 GF's?



Usually the people who make fun of the four wives issue ...
OK 50 was an exaggeration ..... but do you know the average partners a person has in the west ....
If Bill Clinton could marry more than once ... would he have been stuck in the scandal he was a victim ?


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## Ahmad

varigeo said:


> Usually the people who make fun of four wives issue ...
> OK 50 was an exaggeration ..... but do you know the average partners a person has in the west ....
> If Bill Clinton could marry more than once ... would he have been stuck in the scandal he was a victim ?


 
Clinton didnt have more than one wife, where did you get this?


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## untitled

Ahmad said:


> Clinton didnt have more than one wife, where did you get this?



That is not what I meant ..... re read what I typed ..... the context and all.... you will figure it out


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## muse

> If you are a Muslim you should know that




Why so belligerent Varigeo ?? So we should all have more than one wife?? What if this is in conflict with the law? Should we not historicize Quran and the life of the beloved prophet?


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## untitled

muse said:


> Why so belligerent Varigeo ?? So we should all have more than one wife?? What if this is in conflict with the law? Should we not historicize Quran and the life of the beloved prophet?



Why not if one can afford to and has the need why not have more than one wife ?

Well yes I would think twice if it conflicts with law of the land but I will definitely consider it my right.

And is it not the whole point of to be a Muslim ? Trying to emulate the Prophet PBUH.


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## T-Faz

varigeo said:


> Usually the people who make fun of the four wives issue ...
> OK 50 was an exaggeration ..... but do you know the average partners a person has in the west ....
> If Bill Clinton could marry more than once ... would he have been stuck in the scandal he was a victim ?


 
But most people in the west do not even know of the 4 wives thing, why would they make fun of it?

As for Billy C, I don't know.


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## untitled

T-Faz said:


> But most people in the west do not even know of the 4 wives thing, why would they make fun of it?
> 
> As for Billy C, I don't know.



Have you ever tried to talk about Islam to any of your friends .... one of the first things they ask is that (apart from terrorism)?


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## T-Faz

varigeo said:


> Have you ever tried to talk about Islam to any of your friends .... one of the first things they ask is that (apart from terrorism)?


 
Like I said, they don't know much about Islam and only know a few negative things like 72 virgins, terrorism and whatever else they see or read in the media.


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## untitled

T-Faz said:


> Like I said, they don't know much about Islam and only know a few negative things like 72 virgins, terrorism and whatever else they see or read in the media.



Once a Croatian doctor said to me ... Tell me how can I become a Muslim.... I am tired of my wife ... I need another one


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## muse

varigeo said:


> Why not if one can afford to and has the need why not have more than one wife ?
> 
> Well yes I would think twice if it conflicts with law of the land but I will definitely consider it my right.
> 
> And is it not the whole point of to be a Muslim ? Trying to emulate the Prophet PBUH.


 
Excellent -- Lets allow others to think about what you have claimed as a "right" -- I am thinking of the present day and the question of religious freedom with the polygamist "prophet" of some mormon religion on trial in the US, a saw of picture of him kissing one of his 12 year old wives -- I would request that you also address the question historicizing Quran and the life of the prophet ---- Is "context" merely an apologist position? Does Quran and the life of the prophet exist out of "context"? And if Quran is the word of God, are we as Muslims to hold the life of the prophet, a man (by definition fallible) to be something supernatural, that is to say, not man?

Does Quran ask Muslims to emulate the life of the prophet and does Quran say that is the point of being a Muslim?


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## T-Faz

varigeo said:


> Once a Croatian doctor said to me ... Tell me how can I become a Muslim.... I am tired of my wife ... I need another one


 
But he can have 50 GF's so then why would he want another wife?

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## untitled

muse said:


> Excellent -- Lets allow others to think about what you have claimed as a "right" -- I am thinking of the present day and the question of religious freedom with the polygamist "prophet" of some mormon religion on trial in the US, a saw of picture of him kissing one of his 12 year old wives -- I would request that you also address the question historicizing Quran and the life of the prophet ---- Is "context" merely an apologist position? Does Quran and the life of the prophet exist out of "context"? And if Quran is the word of God, are we as Muslims to hold the life of the prophet, a man (by definition fallible) to be something supernatural, that is to say, not man?
> 
> Does Quran ask Muslims to emulate the life of the prophet and does Quran say that is the point of being a Muslim?



I dont care what the others think about me or Islam .... Like they have cared for Islam for the last 1500 years ....

What is wrong with having a a 12 year old wife ? There are plenty of cases of girls getting pregnant at the age of 12 everywhere including the west..... There are even departments in West which provide social services to these girls ... As for the age of 12 (the age of consent) ... It is just a number and it varies from country to country... I have a feeling it is about to be lowered.

The Prophet PBUH was a man just like you and me but the perfect example of mankind.

The life of the Prophet is for all humanity to emulate till the end of time... That is my belief as a Muslim

And Yes Islam means complete obedience to the will of God....

People worship/ emulate all sorts of people here in the west ..... people like Bill Gates, Michale Jackson... Are these your role models ?

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## untitled

T-Faz said:


> But he can have 50 GF's so then why would he want another wife?



That is what I told him


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## VCheng

muse said:


> ......................
> 
> Should we not take greater care to filter out the cultural context of 7th century Arabian society, to arrive at a universal Islam?



That is a great point, with one proviso that is equally important:

Islam cannot be regarded as a static religion, so in addition to filtering out the ancient cultural context, it is important to keep updating the application of its universal truths. Indeed, this built-in dynamism is what makes it stand out from all Abrahamic religions. Thus, there is no "universal" Islam that is correct for all cultures for all times.

As an example that is above the navel, there is great stress on burying the dead immediately. So what about Muslims in dying in those areas where the ground is frozen so hard in the winter that burial has to be delayed until the spring thaw? I have previously given the example of fasting times at higher latitudes too, in the same vein. How about namaz times for an astronaut with the sun setting and rising very quickly in orbit? Zakat is regarded as a pillar, but _Nisaab _has so many news ways to be interpreted in addition to gold and silver equivalents.

My point is that on one hand, one cannot claim Islam as the total code of life for everyone, for all times, unless the mechanisms to ensure its dynamism are given their due importance.

Please note that I am not challenging any dogmatic beliefs, but stressing the need to ensure that the application and implementation of those beliefs remains updated.

I believe that is exactly why both Allah and his Rasul PBUH laid so much stress on understanding and _Ijtehaad_.

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## Elmo

Hot foreplay session, 50 girlfriends, needs - guess the liquor got to you all.

For those advocating peadophilia and polygamy, why not have women emulating the life of the Prophet as well and having more than one husband? 

The thought disgusts you?

Just because a man has needs does not mean that a woman doesn't or that her needs are any less than his.

If most Muslim women suffer their mundane, sparkless marriages day in and day out when Islam clearly gives them an option of walking out of it (but then society bars them from doing so), a man should also keep his needs in check and may be control and curb? But wait - to you men who have the 'option' that doesn't sound right or fair?

As for the liquor, yup not haraam. Everyone knows abt the legislation and the punishment after Prophet's death, so FSC's so-called "verdict" should not be surprising.

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## untitled

VCheng said:


> That is a great point, with one proviso that is equally important:
> 
> Islam cannot be regarded as a static religion, so in addition to filtering out the ancient cultural context, it is important to keep updating the application of its universal truths.
> 
> As an example that is above the navel, there is great stress on burying the dead immediately. So what about Muslims in dying in those areas where the ground is frozen so hard in the winter that burial has to be delayed until the spring thaw? I have previously given the example of fasting times at higher latitudes too, in the same vein. How about namaz times for an astronaut with the sun setting and rising very quickly in orbit? Zakat is regarded as a pillar, but _Nisaab _has so many news ways to be interpreted in addition to gold and silver equivalents.
> 
> 
> I believe that is exactly why both Allah and his Rasul PBUH laid so much stress on understanding and _Ijtehaad_.



How does Islam fail you as a code of life ?

As for praying in Artic/Antartica or Space .... Do Astronauts eat only 3 times in six months? Do they perform their other bodily functions once or twice in in the peroid of daylights or space.... They follow their normal schudule as if they were on earth.... As prayer is spirtual food... it should too be done accordingly


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## VCheng

varigeo said:


> How does Islam fail you as a code of life ?
> 
> ....................



Islam does not fail me at all. My beliefs work for me very well.


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## untitled

Elmo said:


> Hot foreplay session, 50 girlfriends, needs - guess the liquor got to you all.
> 
> For those advocating peadophilia and polygamy, why not have women emulating the life of the Prophet as well and having more than one husband?
> 
> The thought disgusts you?



Try asking that question from a woman..... and let me know the answer.... Do they want more than one husband ?

How would a person know who is parents are ?

As for women they are taking part in Slut walks around the world for that right you mentioned..... Do you want you want that here too ?


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## untitled

VCheng said:


> Islam does not fail me at all. My beliefs work for me very well.



And may Allah bless you and me ....

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## Elmo

varigeo said:


> Try asking that question from a woman..... and let me know the answer.... Do they want more than one husband ?
> How would a person know who is parents are ?
> As for women they are taking part in Slut walks around the world for that right you mentioned..... Do you want you want that here too ?


 
I am a woman. A Pakistani woman who knows many other Pakistani women.

Why don't you try asking for a change - you'll be in for a surprise. Your assumption clearly shows that you've never even bothered to consider what a woman thinks or feels. Rather you'd want her to feel and think what you think she should be feeling. Let me tell you, you will never keep your woman happy. Men like you, their wives put up a facade and hate their husbands in reality. I also have a strong feeling that your interaction with wome have been limited a handful only. Go out, talk to them, before spouting whatever you just spouted.

Sex is not a man's domain. Women also practice and I dont understand why Muslim men are so embarassed to admit and see their women as sexual beings.

So by your retarded logic, if a man practices polygamy, then the children know who his parents are and if a woman does the same, he won't know.

Slut walk - what are you on about? Are you in your senses? Who is talking about that?

Once again by your logic, men who practice polygamy should be male sluts?

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## muse

varigeo said:


> I dont care what the others think about me or Islam .... Like they have cared for Islam for the last 1500 years ....
> 
> What is wrong with having a a 12 year old wife ? There are plenty of cases of girls getting pregnant at the age of 12 everywhere including the west..... There are even departments in West which provide social services to these girls ... As for the age of 12 (the age of consent) ... It is just a number and it varies from country to country... I have a pretty good feeling it is about to be lowered.
> 
> The Prophet PBUH was a man just like you and me but the perfect example of mankind.
> 
> The life of the Prophet is for all humanity to emulate till the end of time... That is my belief as a Muslim
> 
> And Yes Islam means complete obedience to the will of God....
> 
> People worship/ emulate all sorts of people here in the west ..... people like Bill Gates, Michale Jackson... Are these your role models ?


 
Varigeo

Again, Excelent - for a while after I read your post, I was speechless -- first a "right" to polygamy, and now to underage nubiles - Who da man?? You da man - a perverted man.

Anyway, you have, without meaning to, I am certain, again, brought up the issue of historicizing Quran and the life of the beloved prophet -- Do social values change or evolve? If yes, then certainly the question of Emulation is one that we must be very very careful with - we must not be ignorant and allow Emulation to foster present day ideals, not the ideals that have not stood the test of time or are in conflict with our present day values.

Now, with regard to Historicizing - We look at the past with "lens" that are informed by the values of the present (your case is of course different and I am sure multiple 12 year olds and your goodself can be accommodated, somewhere else) -- how fair then is it to judge the past and the behaviors of the past with present day values?? Is it possible that we can deposit "positive" values in the past when the values of the past conflict with our present day values?? Of course not - and that is why Mullah Hazrat promote tribal values, to alter the values of the present day to what they were in the past - and therefore, to see polygamy and 12 yr old nubiles as acceptable marriage material and even to impregnate - Astagfurallah!


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## VCheng

I will openly reaffirm what Elmo is saying, and thank her for stating it so clearly. Bravo, my dear lady, bravo!


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## untitled

Elmo said:


> I am a woman. A Pakistani woman who knows many other Pakistani women.



I did not know that ... my apologies madam.

Do you want me to reply ? Or should I come back when you are in a better mood ?


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## T-Faz

Elmo said:


> Hot foreplay session, 50 girlfriends, needs - guess the liquor got to you all.
> 
> For those advocating peadophilia and polygamy, why not have women emulating the life of the Prophet as well and having more than one husband?
> 
> *The thought disgusts you?*
> 
> Just because a man has needs does not mean that a woman doesn't or that her needs are any less than his.
> 
> If most Muslim women suffer their mundane, sparkless marriages day in and day out when Islam clearly gives them an option of walking out of it (but then society bars them from doing so), a man should also keep his needs in check and may be control and curb? But wait - to you men who have the 'option' that doesn't sound right or fair?
> 
> As for the liquor, yup not haraam. Everyone knows abt the legislation and the punishment after Prophet's death, so FSC's so-called "verdict" should not be surprising.


 
Agreed, I am disgusted by this suggestion that women must have more than one husband.

As for why Muslim woman suffer, it is because this life is a "test", preparation for the here after and if you pass then you go to heaven and you get 72 female virgins.

That is where all the fun begins.

So to round up briefly, Muslim men are the "test" that a Muslim woman must go through.

And its one damn hard test.

So two Muslim husbands mean an even more difficult test.

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## untitled

muse said:


> Varigeo
> 
> Again, Excelent - for a while after I read your post, I was speechless -- first a "right" to polygamy, and now to underage nubiles - Who da man?? You da man - a perverted man.



Now a personal attack ...... So according to you it is acceptable for a girl to get pregnant at the age 12 but if she gets married she commits an unthinkable crime.


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## VCheng

Can the debate please rise north of the navel, instead of concentrating on the nether regions?

There is much more to Islam than just reproductive issues, right?

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## untitled

Elmo said:


> Once again by your logic, men who practice polygamy should be male sluts?



When I say *polygamy* I mean up to 4 times marriage.

So it is acceptable to live the life of Tiger Woods, Bill Clinton and Hugh Hefner .... But marrying four time ..... nope that is an unthinkable sin 

As for woman marrying more than one times... how can she establish who the father is ? In the words of Michal Jackson .... *The kid is ...*


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## untitled

VCheng said:


> Can the debate please rise north of the navel, instead of concentrating on the nether regions?
> 
> There is much more to Islam than just reproductive issues, right?



I agree ....


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## T-Faz

VCheng said:


> Can the debate please rise north of the navel, instead of concentrating on the nether regions?
> 
> There is much more to Islam than just reproductive issues, right?


 
When you get drunk, it doesn't matter which region is being discussed as long as something is being discussed.

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## untitled

T-Faz said:


> When you get drunk, it doesn't matter which region is being discussed as long as something is being discussed.



Sorry for going off topic .... but then again these issues were dragged in .... Thank you for being patient with me and not issuing me an infraction


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## VCheng

T-Faz said:


> When you get drunk, it doesn't matter which region is being discussed as long as something is being discussed.



LOL! A very good point that I cannot argue with, until I "sober" up, eh?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

men and women both have needs....takes two to tango 

i was about to say something mildly-to-moderately inappropriate......but then i realized i still have another 8 hours and 23 minutes to go till iftar


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## T-Faz

VCheng said:


> LOL! A very good point that I cannot argue with, until I "sober" up, eh?


 
Unfortunately Iftar is still a bit far away.

Until then I am going to read something about religion so I can get a visa for heaven.

Hopefully things will be sober by then.


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## forcetrip

varigeo said:


> When I say *polygamy* I mean up to 4 times marriage.
> 
> So it is acceptable to live the life of Tiger Woods, Bill Clinton and Hugh Hefner .... But marrying four time ..... nope that is an unthinkable sin
> 
> As for woman marrying more than 4 times... how can she establish who the father is ? In the words of Michal Jackson .... *The kid is ...*


 
Its very easy. People have figured out way more difficult questions like space and the combination of water. If they did not have DNA tests then .. maybe they should allow it now?


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## untitled

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> .....but then i realized i still have another 8 hours and 23 minutes to go till iftar


 


T-Faz said:


> Unfortunately Iftar is still a bit far away.



Sorry if I kharabed your roza..... I have already iftared mine

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## DaRk WaVe

> *What is wrong with having a a 12 year old wife ? *There are plenty of cases of girls getting pregnant at the age of 12 everywhere including the west..... There are even departments in West which provide social services to these girls ... As for the age of 12 (the age of consent) ... It is just a number and it varies from country to country... I have a feeling it is about to be lowered.



Though I don't approve any girl getting pregnant at age of 12 but have you ever heard of thing called pedophilia? I try my best to restrain myself but seriously this what religion can do to you, you end up justifying Pedophilia... 
Have you ever came across a 12 year old girl? You really think she is matured enough to decide for herself...


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## untitled

forcetrip said:


> maybe they should allow it now?



Go for it


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## muse

Seeing the past with the values of the present day will always be problematic -- how then can we resolve this conflict?

By historicizing, by becoming aware of the context, of the interaction of real life men and women, with the ideas of the past and the then present day, to become aware of the social and cultural context within which these men and women and these ideas, interacted.

So what will that do for our understanding of such ideas as Emulation - The habibullah was a real person, a real "man" not a mythical creation, his behavior was what it was and was seen as legitimate or not, in the context of his environment -- we all do not live in the 7th century Arabia, so how do we relate with the life of the habibullah?? 

We relate with his life through filtering the values of the past for conflict with the values of the present - this is the method of an Islam ever rejuvenating, ever relevant, ever the source of spiritual nourishment, ever the source of strength.


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## untitled

DaRk WaVe said:


> Though I don't approve any girl getting pregnant at age of 12 but have you ever heard of thing called pedophilia? I try my best to restrain myself but seriously this what religion can do to you, you end up justifying Pedophilia...
> Have you ever came across a 12 year old girl? You really think she is matured enough to decide for herself...



Please create another thread about this .... plus many people here are observing roza or are not sober


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## DaRk WaVe

varigeo said:


> Please create another thread about this .... plus many people here are observing roza or are not sober


 
I have just conveyed my message, its upto you to think...


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## untitled

DaRk WaVe said:


> I have just conveyed my message, its upto you to think...



I know that ...... if you are curious enough .... but this not the place to discuss this


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## forcetrip

varigeo said:


> Go for it


 
Go for what?? You mumbling nothing ?? So will a religion allow both men and women to have equal rights to choosing however many partners they wish??


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## untitled

forcetrip said:


> So will a religion allow both men and women to have equal rights to choosing however many partners they wish??



Islam does not .....
Do you really want a woman who has many partners/husbands (depending upon how liberal you are) to go through all the trouble of finding out who the father of the kid every time she is expecting ?


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## DaRk WaVe

All standards of purity and morality start and finish with how religious people want women to behave and act. Sickening it is.


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## untitled

DaRk WaVe said:


> All standards of purity and morality start and finish with how religious people want women to behave and act. Sickening it is.



Because unfortunately woman have much more to lose then men.... but then again who is asking you to follow any religion


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## DaRk WaVe

varigeo said:


> Because unfortunately woman have much more to lose then men....



Stop been a sexist



> but then again who is asking you to follow any religion



Religious Morals are forced on to women, even if they don't want to follow it


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## VCheng

DaRk WaVe said:


> All standards of purity and morality start and finish with how religious people want women to behave and act. Sickening it is.



The use of religion to control intimate aspects of life is ancient, and most prone to misuse, as witnessed by history.

However, I fear that this thread is heading for closure if it goes off-topic like this.

Remember the topic please: The FSC verdict about alcohol.


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## forcetrip

varigeo said:


> Islam does not .....
> Do you really want a woman who has many partners/husbands (depending upon how liberal you are) to go through all the trouble of finding out who the father of the kid every time she is expecting ?


 
The reason I said about the DNA thing was because of your question. Now you are questioning common sense? why would anyone want more than one wife? Common sense for both men and women would be to think before they choose their partners. No religion should condone one party to have open rights to something that was done to grow population. Keep the medieval rules and regulation and bury them with the times. Condone them, rather than encourage people to marry 12 year olds.

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## untitled

DaRk WaVe said:


> Stop been a sexist



So you are saying woman are equal to men in every way..... they have same amount of hormones, strength... they think the same way as men .... 

I always felt sorry for woman who think that to get recognized you have to become a man.


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## untitled

forcetrip said:


> The reason I said about the DNA thing was because of your question. Now you are questioning common sense? why would anyone want more than one wife? Common sense for both men and women would be to think before they choose their partners. .



Because in a society woman outnumber men.

Yet so many men are caught cheating on their wives..... and the other woman usually knows he is cheating on his .... Why does that gf not think about her being equal


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## forcetrip

varigeo said:


> So you are saying woman are equal to men in every way..... they have same amount of hormones, strength... they think the same way as men ....
> 
> I always felt sorry for woman who think that to get recognized you have to become a man.



Ignorance is definitely bliss, I am just wondering if I stopped looking around and seeing how the world has changed would I actually be agreeing with this guy rather than laughing at him?


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## DaRk WaVe

VCheng said:


> The use of religion to control intimate aspects of life is ancient, and most prone to misuse, as witnessed by history.
> 
> However, I fear that this thread is heading for closure if it goes off-topic like this.
> 
> Remember the topic please: The FSC verdict about alcohol.


 
I just found his comments about 12 year old girl, absolutely disgusting, I had to respond to that



varigeo said:


> So you are saying woman are equal to men in every way..... they have same amount of hormones, strength... they think the same way as men ....
> 
> I always felt sorry for woman who think that to get recognized you have to become a man.


 
Never mind, But i'll still say all standards of purity and morality start and finish with how religious people want women to behave and act


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## forcetrip

varigeo said:


> Because in a society woman outnumber men.
> 
> Yet so many men are caught cheating on their wives..... and the other woman usually knows he is cheating on his .... Why does that gf not think about her being equal


 
Please look at the number of men and women in the world first. You want to pass a religious law because there is a 1% increase in women? what if that changed? what does the religion say then?


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## muse

DaRk WaVe said:


> All standards of purity and morality start and finish with how religious people want women to behave and act. Sickening it is.


 

Sickening? Pakistani authorities will beg to differ --- It is noble. But on the other hand, women scare the Mullah, they always have - see the Mullah can turn the minds of the men, but then they are alone with a woman and that woman sets their heads straight -- women are competition for the Mullah.

And there is something else, it's sexual shame - In the present, the people who are most attracted to 12 year olds and misogyny in general, are deeply insecure persons (pencil dicks) - the very idea of being "real", in the present, is not just alarming to them, it negates life as a ritual, a pattern repeating without consciousness.


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## untitled

forcetrip said:


> Ignorance is definitely bliss, I am just wondering if I stopped looking around and seeing how the world has changed would I actually be agreeing with this guy rather than laughing at him?



I too am finding out the hard way .... when a society takes completely religion out of life, how it ends up ...... it is a cyclical process .... civilizations come and go.... I am pleased your amused ... enjoy while it lasts


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## forcetrip

varigeo said:


> I too am finding out the hard way .... when a society takes completely religion out of life, how it ends up ...... it is a cyclical process .... civilizations come and go.... I am pleased your amused ... enjoy while it lasts


 
You just havent grasped the fact that your civilization died with the ottomans .. Welcome to the real world.. you can try to hold on as tight as you want to these cultural customs, your children will explain the truth to you one day, if not them then maybe their children. Hope you are alive to see that day.


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## untitled

forcetrip said:


> Please look at the number of men and women in the world first. You want to pass a religious law because there is a 1% increase in women? what if that changed? what does the religion say then?



Well Islam does not say every man should have up to 4 wives.... Only those who can afford, need and be just ......
Even when is it legal here in our society .... how many people do you know who practice it


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## muse

I thought you said it was a "right" -- are "rights" restricted to the rich in Islam?

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## untitled

muse said:


> I thought you said it was a "right" -- are "rights" restricted to the rich in Islam?



Yes it is right .... with conditions ......
Would a person in his right mind take responsibility of another wife when he is broke ?
Would any father give his daughter to man who already has a wife and is broke ?


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## forcetrip

He will most likely say that it is to support the woman if her husband dies. She cannot support herself because she has been but under a blanket and now she can be entertainment for the guy and he pays for her and the children to survive, with dignity. Utterly insensitive . I just can not talk about this anymore.

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## DaRk WaVe

muse said:


> Sickening? Pakistani authorities will beg to differ --- It is noble. But on the other hand, women scare the Mullah, they always have - see the Mullah can turn the minds of the men, but then they are alone with a woman and that woman sets their heads straight -- women are competition for the Mullah.



The simple fact is that Mullahs just cannot stand happy, satisfied & successful women, they have a independent woman phobia. These are the people who on record say that if women cannot bring 4 witness for rape then they should not report rape (Ameer JI Syed Munawar) 



> And there is something else, it's sexual shame - In the present, the people who are most attracted to 12 year olds and misogyny in general, are deeply insecure persons (pencil dicks) - the very idea of being "real", in the present, is not just alarming to them, it negates life as a ritual, a pattern repeating without consciousness.



Well thats what happens when all kinds of sexual desiers are supressed, you end up been a pervert. The Logic that to prevent 12 year old from getting pregnant out of marriage just marry them because age of 12 is all right, Can a 12 year old girl decide for herself, They think yes

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## forcetrip

varigeo said:


> Yes it is right .... with conditions ......
> Would a person in his right mind take responsibility of another wife when he is broke ?
> Would any father give his daughter to man who already has a wife and is broke ?


 
All I am saying my brother is that please understand that this should not be brought up as religious formalities anymore. Those times are gone. Everyone can take their own decisions today. That is what should be preached.

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## untitled

DaRk WaVe said:


> I just found his comments about 12 year old girl, absolutely disgusting, I had to respond to that



Ever heard of Eden Woods ? Did you hear about the Samba queen in Brazil in 2010 ? Google these if you don't
Were these decisions in you opinion made by religious bigots ?


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## DaRk WaVe

varigeo said:


> Because in a society woman outnumber men.
> 
> Yet so many men are caught cheating on their wives..... and the other woman usually knows he is cheating on his .... Why does that gf not think about her being equal


 
it is equal...genetics dictates that..it comes down 1:1...If u ever look at at stats of countries and their gender balance in the "marriageable age" bracket, there are usually more men than women.
There will be a female majority because on average women tend to live longer than men. Look at an age-pyramid diagram for most countries.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimb&#8203;all.ma.ultranet/BiologyPag&#8203;es/F/France_India75.gif

Look at France. Men and women are nearly equal across all age groups with a female majority coming in at 70+.


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## untitled

forcetrip said:


> All I am saying my brother is that please understand that this should not be brought up as religious formalities anymore. Those times are gone. Everyone can take their own decisions today. That is what should be preached.



Look mate I understand you have a grudge against me since the last we talked about the US embassy issue ...
You feel hurt when some one criticizes values you hold dear....
I feel the same way too and I too have the right to respond people who attack my beliefs.


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## muse

DaRk WaVe said:


> The simple fact is that Mullahs just cannot stand happy, satisfied & successful women, they have a independent woman phobia. These are the people who on record say that if women cannot bring 4 witness for rape then they should not report rape (Ameer JI Syed Munawar)
> Well thats what happens when all kinds of sexual desiers are supressed, you end up been a pervert. The Logic that to prevent 12 year old from getting pregnant out of marriage just marry them because age of 12 is all right, Can a 12 year old girl decide for herself, They think yes


 
That's why all this Jamati "Islamize" rubbish does nothing but defame Islam - when 12w year olds are the object of sexual satisfaction and multiple wives (hareem keeping) is considered a ideal and a "right" if you are rich enough - is it any wonder peole around the world think of Islam in the way they do?

We used to be Muslims, now we are "Islamized" - and ain't we glad?


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## DaRk WaVe

varigeo said:


> Look mate I understand you have a grudge against me since the last we talked about the US embassy issue ...
> You feel hurt when some one criticizes values you hold dear....
> I feel the same way too and I too have the right to respond people who attack my beliefs.


 
Values? lol
You mean been a sexist, a large part of your values is obsession with women & all values are based around a misogynistic view..


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## untitled

DaRk WaVe said:


> The Logic that to prevent 12 year old from getting pregnant out of marriage just marry them because age of 12 is all right, Can a 12 year old girl decide for herself, They think yes


 
It is not only the Mullahs .... in the west girls as small 12 are given lessons in the birds and the bees in their schools .... and taught safe techniques in adult education.... why blame the Mullahs ?


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## Ahmad

varigeo said:


> When I say *polygamy* I mean up to 4 times marriage.
> 
> So it is acceptable to live the life of Tiger Woods, Bill Clinton and Hugh Hefner .... But marrying four time ..... nope that is an unthinkable sin
> 
> As for woman marrying more than one times... how can she establish who the father is ? In the words of Michal Jackson .... *The kid is ...*


 And who is giving a thumb up to tiger woods and clinton? didnt you see the news how much of drama it created for both of them? DNA test can establish the child's father.

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## untitled

DaRk WaVe said:


> Values? lol
> You mean been a sexist, a large part of your values is obsession with women & all values are based around a misogynistic view..



You mean calling a spade a spade is sexist ? You mean treating a woman like a lady is sexist ? If I do that I am a misogynist ? 
So your saying only woman who act like men are WOMAN..

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## niaz

I am only a student of Islamic history. To the best of my knowledge the following three verses describe what the holy Quran says about wine and drinking.

002.219 
They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-

004.043 
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.

005.090 
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper


I dont see clear cut order banning the wine altogether even though drinking has been described as great sin. Some of the holy Prophets (PBUH) companions must be heavy drinkers during the early period of Islamic state in Medina otherwise a Qurans verse asking the faithful not to enter the mosque wouldn't be revealed. 

According to Sahih Bukhari

The selling of alcoholic drinks were made unlawful in the year of the conquest of Mecca...Sahih Bukhari: 5.59.590

This is the history. What does Sharia and Hadith say about it? I cant say with any certainty. 

Regardless of whether prohibited or not, wine drinking has been quite prevalent among the poets and the aristocracy ever since the Omayyad period.

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## DaRk WaVe

muse said:


> That's why all this Jamati "Islamize" rubbish does nothing but defame Islam - when 12w year olds are the object of sexual satisfaction and multiple wives (hareem keeping) is considered a ideal and a "right" if you are rich enough - is it any wonder peole around the world think of Islam in the way they do?
> 
> We used to be Muslims, now we are "Islamized" - and ain't we glad?


 
When you live in a society where little girls have to be covered so that they cannot be viewed as sexual objects (they intentionally or unintentionally end up sexuali-zing girls) you know that something's seriously worked up, with the values you have.. The logic of Mr. Varigeo is an example of how majority of Pakistanis have a twisted view of sex & sexuality regarding women, they are literally saying that 'their evil is smaller than the other one'..

I'll have a Muslim Pakistan over a "Islamized" any day, I want my Pre Zia Pakistan back :|

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## Ahmad

varigeo said:


> Please create another thread about this .... plus many people here are observing roza or are not sober


 
how will that discussion interfere with roza?


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## DaRk WaVe

varigeo said:


> It is not only the Mullahs .... in the west girls as small 12 are given lessons in the birds and the bees in their schools .... and taught safe techniques in adult education.... why blame the Mullahs ?


 
So are actaully saying that if west is doing that we will do this, regardless of how perverted it is?

I don't see any problem with educating girls about their body, whats wrong with that? at least they won't think that they are bleeding to death...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## untitled

Ahmad said:


> And who is giving a thumb up to tiger woods and clinton? didnt you see the news how much of drama it created for both of them? DNA test can establish the child's father.



They would have been if they were not married... given thumbs up I mean.

Like I said do you really want a woman to go thru that, DNA tests I mean ?


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## DaRk WaVe

varigeo said:


> They would have been if they were not married... given thumbs up I mean.
> 
> Like I said do you really want a woman to go thru that, DNA tests I mean ?


 
LOL! thank you for been so funny


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## forcetrip

varigeo said:


> You mean calling a spade a spade is sexist ? You mean treating a woman like a lady is sexist ? If I do that I am a misogynist ?
> So your saying only woman who act like men are WOMAN..


 
Just treat women as human beings. You are treating them like a goat who will herd off and pasture in the neighbors yard. Try to understand that women have developed their brains way more since 1400 years ago, when all they were kept as were prostitutes and wives. They can actually be productive members of society. Does she have to pick up heavy things? I guess not. But can she. Why do you not let her decide? If she is capable then who are you and any religion to stop her. Will she stops if she hurts herself or others? Any person in their right mind would. Please look out for the future of your children and mine.


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## untitled

DaRk WaVe said:


> So are actaully saying that if west is doing that we will do this, regardless of how perverted it is?
> 
> I don't see any problem with educating girls about their body, whats wrong with that? at least they won't think that they are bleeding to death...



Yes a girl should know about herself... I agree

Isn't teaching safe techniques to them all about encouraging them (by giving out free ).... I mean they are just 12 ..... Many if them do go out and do it.... 
You mean she is old enough to know about it
She is old enough to do it if she is willing
But not old enough to get married


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## Ahmad

varigeo said:


> They would have been if they were not married... given thumbs up I mean.
> 
> Like I said do you really want a woman to go thru that, DNA tests I mean ?


 
nobody will give you thumb up to be with another girl if you are in relationship be it marriage or co habitation as they call it.


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## untitled

forcetrip said:


> Just treat women as human beings. You are treating them like a goat who will herd off and pasture in the neighbors yard. Try to understand that women have developed their brains way more since 1400 years ago, when all they were kept as were prostitutes and wives. They can actually be productive members of the world. Please look out for the future of your children and mine.



And how am I doing that ? I have no problem with woman pursuing a career..... becoming PhDs or leaders .... if they can.
So being a wife, mother is degrading to being a woman you mean ?


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