# Su-30MKI - Super Sukhoi Upgrade Program.



## Kompromat

This thread is for all updates and discussions related to the Super Sukhoi upgrade program of the Indian Air Force to upgrade its existing fleet of Su-30 MKI jets.

Keep it clean.

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## Blue Marlin

*India, Russia to sign pact on spares for Su 30 fleet, availability could go up to 75%*

MOSCOW: India and Russia are set to sign a pact for quick delivery of spare parts for the Su 30 MKI fleet that would ensure that the aircraft is available for more combat missions - a key focus area for Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar who has working on reducing the amount of time frontline fighters are grounded due to technical issues. 

The long term spares agreement will provide for an express process for the delivery of spares for the fleet for the next five years. Unlike in the past where each spare part had to be ordered separately with a lengthy process involving license, customs clearance and bank guarantees, the contract will ensure that spare parts start getting manufactured within a month of the air force raising a requirement. 

"A delegation from the Indian defence ministry is expected in the second half of December and we hope to have a positive decision and sign the contract at the soonest," Valery V Chishchevoy, Marketing Director of Sukhoi told ET. 

While in the past, the bureaucratic processes led to a 12 month time period between the time a requirement was raised and the spare part would start to get manufactured, this time will now be cut to 30 days. 

hishchevoy said that the main purpose of the new agreement is to increase the reliability and availability of the Su 30 fleet to 60 percent and higher. The availability rate is the number of aircraft in the entire fleet that are available for combat missions at any given time. At present, just over 50 percent of India's Su 30 fleet - 272 of the fighters have been ordered - are available for combat missions as the rest are either undergoing repairs or grounded due to delay in the supply of spare of spare parts.

Defence Minister Parrikar has told ET in the past that his aim is to increase this availability rate to 65 percent and above so that the available resources of the air force are used optimally. The Su 30 MKI fleet is the cutting edge of the airforce and would be it largest in terms of numbers of a modern fighter jet. 

There is a possibility that the availability of the fleet could touch the magical figure of 75 percent. Chishchevoy said that the Russian proposal ten years ago when the fleet was young was to appoint Sukhoi as the single supplier responsible for the serviceability of the fleet and 75 percent would be `guaranteed'.

"Under the new contract, after the receipt of a request from the Indian air force, the spare part wil be delivered to the air force warehouse within 4-12 months, depending on the time it takes to manufacture the part. As of now, 12 months are required for just to start the production, this will reduce to 30 days," Viacheslav Yu Lozan, After Sale Center Director, Sukhoi said. 


India, Russia to sign pact on spares for Su 30 fleet, availability could go up to 75% - The Economic Times

*Phazotron Zhuk AE AESA Radar*







On the parked MiG-35 visting VIPs could get a closer look at the Russian latest AESA radar – the Zhuk-AE AESA, developed by Phazotron NIIR Corporation. India is already operating the BAR phased array radar on its Su-30MKI and has specified AESA as a critical element of the MRCA platform. This radar was developed with modular approach, enabling upgrading existing Zhuk ME/MSE radars, into the phased array equipped MFE/MSFE standard, deployed in MiG-29/Su-27 platforms.

This 3cm (X-band) radar. The Russians designed their radar to produce linear power output at the range of 6-8 watt, to address available power (provided by the aircraft) and performance (range). The radar uses multiple four channel transceivers modules generating an output of 5watt per channel, installed on a liquid cooled base plate to dissipate the generated heat. If a specific transceiver is overheated, it will be switched off by the radar computer until it cools down. 







Zhuk-AE can detect aerial targets at ranges up to 130 km (head on) in both look-up or look down modes. Look-up tail-on detection range is 50km (40km look down). The radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode, and engage six targets simultaneously in the attack mode. 

The radar provides target designation data for various Russian made missiles such as the R-27R1(R1E0, RVV-AE, R-73E, Kh-31A, Kh-35E and R-27T(TE) missiles. The radar can distinguish and count closely flying targets as well as identifying targets with known signatures. Close maneuvering combat mode optimizes the system's performance to provide effective vertical scans, coverage of the HUD field-of view, and slew to follow the helmet sighting angles. Special optimization is also provided in the helicopter detection mode, detecting and attacking slow-flying and hovering targets. In the air/surface mode the radar supports ranging, mapping and tracking of moving targets, The radar supports real-beam, Doppler beam sharpening and focused synthetic aperture modes, offering different map scale expansion, map 'freezing', and tracking of four targets, including ground or sea-surface moving targets. It has a sea-surface search mode. The Zhuk AE can detect a destroyer size target at a range of 200 km.

*The modernization program*

At this stage Irkut is presenting cabin mockup, power plant and the wind box. The wing of this aircraft will be made of carbon fibres. According to Fedorov, India will remain Irkut’s largest and biggest partner in future as well.

This is the first such in Russia and not many foreign countries produce such aircrafts. Irkut is the largest flier of aircraft and aviation products in the market. 

In response to questions, Fedorov informed that “as far as SU-30MKI is concerned, we have two modernization programs. First is the modernization where the cockpit and all systems would be improved. We are moving in the stage of negotiating technical part.”

He hopes that during this financial year Irkut will conclude the project. It is very large program which is several billion dollars. The second part would be the modernization of the aircraft together with Brahmos air-to-ground supersonic cruise missile program.

Now together with Indian Ministry of Defence we are working out how to share work under the modernization program. What will be done in Russia and in India will be finalized. Fedorov hoped, “this year we will come to conclusion.”

Asked what systems are being proposed, Fedorov declined to give details. But said that we are in negotiation for the upgrading of the entire Sukhoi-30 MKI USD 12 billion project for which the cost has gone up by USD 4 billion.

Under our signed contract, escalation of prices has been included, which is changing. Next year we plan to finalize the development work. After the development work we hope that two year time will be required to finish.

Fedorov revealed that the IAF wants that the new upgraded SU-30 MKIs should be called as Super Sukhoi fighter. Irkut is negotiating to incorporate the AESA radar in the Sukhoi-30MKIs. 

Our idea is to modernize the SU-30 MKI to bring it to near 5th generation aircraft capability. At present, we are negotiating the upgradation. He asserted, “we are trying to get SU-30MKI maximally to FGFA.”

First of all, Irkut is modernizing the cockpit for pilots. This is so designed that it will be easier for the pilots to shift to Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft being developed jointly by India and Russia.

The upgraded Super Sukhoi would also have advanced stealth characteristics. The Super Sukhoi can also be equipped with other long range missiles like R-27P (AA-10 D) infrared homing extended range version of 120 km distance.

Besides medium range missiles like R-77 (AA-12) with active radar homing medium range 100 km along with other 80 km medium range missiles can also be added. 

At present, the current fleet of Sukhoi-30MKIs in IAF will be upgraded to Super Sukhoi. He expressed confidence that the first Super Sukhoi aircraft will be ready by 2015. First the conversion of initial fleets inducted in the early years of last decade will be undertaken for conversion to Super Sukhoi.

As soon as all the testing is completed the older ones will start getting upgraded. But he refused to answer queries on the costs. But said, “total value will be of several billion dollars. It is difficult to tell you about exact price. SU-30 has good market in South East Asia.”

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## mkb95

su30mki coupled with brahmos will be our one of the most important strategic weapon system.this will be the first time iaf will get true deep penetration capability.




question-is there plane of integrating brahmos with naval mig29?

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## nang2

mkb95 said:


> su30mki coupled with brahmos will be our one of the most important strategic weapon system.this will be the first time iaf will get true deep penetration capability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> question-is there plane of integrating brahmos with naval mig29?


What is that plane in the air? Tejas?


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## Maarkhoor

*Unresolved Issues In Su-30MKI Could Impact “Super Sukhoi” Upgrade Talks*
A plan to upgrade Indian Air Force (IAF) Su-30MKI aircraft to the “Super Sukhoi” configuration may be delayed owing to unresolved issues with the Su-30MKI aircraft.

Russia’s Rosoboronexport and Irkut Corp. had proposed in 2011 to equip the Su-30MKI with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, improved weapons and stealth characteristics to bring it close to the level of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

A source confirmed to defenseworld.net that inter-governmental talk is on between India and Russia on the “Super Sukhoi” program. But the IAF is chary about the program as it has “unresolved problems” with the Su-30 MKI.

The unresolved service issues include in-flight displays blanking off, ejection seat activating on its own and problems with the engine. “There has been a game of buck-passing between the IAF, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, and Sukhoi Design Bureau regarding the unresolved issues”, the source said.

The source said that any talk of a Sukhoi upgrade being signed on to by the IAF is not a possibility in the near future. “Talks have been going on for the past three-four years about the Super Sukhoi program – the way the upgrade program is named – but nothing has been decided.”

"Research institutions and industrial facilities in India will participate in the program to modernize the Su-30MKI, which will significantly increase the combat capabilities of the aircraft," an Irkut spokesperson had told journalists ahead of the Aero India show earlier this year.

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## mkb95

nang2 said:


> What is that plane in the air? Tejas?


yep

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## T-72M1

nang2 said:


> What is that plane in the air? Tejas?


yup, I think the pic is from aero India, Bangalore.


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## nang2

T-72M1 said:


> yup, I think the pic is from aero India, Bangalore.


Cool. Thanks  The bird looks great in the air.

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## The Eagle

So far, India has ordered 272 SU-30s in 4 stages:

*1.* 50 Su-30MK and MKIs ordered directly from Russia in 1996. The Su-30MKs were reportedly modernized to a basic Su-30MKI standard.
*2.* Another 40 Su-30MKIs, ordered direct in 2007. These machines have reportedly been upgraded to the “Phase 3” standard.
*3.* A license-build deal with India’s HAL that aims to produce up to 140 more Su-30MKI Phase 3 planes from 2013-2017
*4.* An improved set of 42 HAL-built Su-30MKI “Super 30s”. A preliminary order was reportedly signed in 2011, but the final deal waited until December 2012.

The Super 30 represents the next evolution for the Su-30MKI. Upgrades are reported to include a new radar (probably AESA, and likely Phazotron’s Zhuk-AE), improved onboard computers, upgraded electronic warfare systems, and the ability to fire the air-launched version of the Indo-Russian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.

India may eventually upgrade its earlier models to this standard. For now, they represent the tail end of HAL’s assembly schedule, as the assembly of standard Su-30MKIs continues. The big challenge for HAL is to keep that expansion going, by meeting India’s production targets.

The overall goal is 13-14 squadrons by 2017. Based on 3rd party sources, IAF Su-30MKI squadrons currently comprise:




2 Wing’s 20 Sqn. “Lightnings” & 30 Sqn. “Rhinos”, at Lohegaon AFS in Pune (W)
11 Wing’s 2 Sqn. “Winged Arrows”, at Tezpur AFS in Assam (NE, near Tibet)
15 Wing’s 8 Sqn. “Eight Pursuits” & 24 Sqn. “Hawks”, at Bareilly AFS in Uttar Pradesh (NC, near W Nepal)
14 Wing’s 102 Sqn. “Trisonics”, at Guwahati/Chabua AFS in Assam (NE, near Tibet)
27 Wing’s 15 Sqn. “Flying Lancers”, at Bhuj AFS in Gurajat (NW)
34 Wing’s 31 Sqn. “Lions” & 220 Sqn. “Desert Tigers”, at Halwara AFS in Punjab (NW)
45 Wing’s 21 Sqn. “Ankush”, at Sirsa AFS in Haryana (NW)


Initial Su-30 MKI squadron deployments had been focused near the Chinese border, but the new deployments are evening things out. There have also been reports of basings in other locations, though the number of active squadrons suggest that these are yet to come:




Bhatinda AFS in Punjab (NW, currently 34 Wing’s 17 Sqn. “Golden Arrows” MiG-21s)
Jodhpur AFS in Rajasthan (NW, currently 32 Wing’s MiG-21 and MiG-27 squadrons)
Thanjavur AFS in Tamil Nadu (SE) needs to finish building out, but is expected to permanently house SU-30MKIs by 2018. Its Su-30MKIs will offer India comfortable strike coverage of Sri Lanka, including the major southern port of Hambantota that’s being built with a great deal of Chinese help.

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## Blue Marlin

nang2 said:


> What is that plane in the air? Tejas?


looking at it, the wings being a delta wing it could be a tejas or mk2. most likely a tejas as that picture was taken during an airshow and the tejas did participate in the show

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## Echo_419

nang2 said:


> Cool. Thanks  The bird looks great in the air.



You sure you are Chinese?


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## nang2

Echo_419 said:


> You sure you are Chinese?


I am positive. Why did you ask?

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## The Eagle

*India Ordered, Modernized, Perhaps Regrets Su-30MKIs
Dec 10, 2015 00:19 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff

December 10/15: *India’s capabilities to maintain its Su-30 fleet quickly and effectively has received a boost after a new deal






signed with Russia. The agreement allows for the Indian Air Force (IAF) to receive spare parts of Su-30 aircraft within 30 days instead of the previous 12 months. The five year agreement will cut away red tape such as license, customs clearance and bank guarantees which in the past had to be completed for each part ordered. This will allow for the IAF to keep its Su-30 fleet at optimum levels of operational capacity. For two countries who love bureaucracy, 12 months to 30 days is quite an achievement.

So what about the update of parts, did arrive or stil waiting?


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## mkb95

nang2 said:


> I am positive. Why did you ask?


bcos we are not used to getting praise for tejas from non-indian especially on pdf.


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## nang2

mkb95 said:


> bcos we are not used to getting praise for tejas from non-indian especially on pdf.


I cheer for any accomplishment by other countries, no matter how small, as long as it is not at the cost of China. While Tejas is not the best jet fighter in the world, it is the result of hard working Indians. It is the hard work that earns respect. Of course, I will stop praising the moment it starts to shoot at Chinese.

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## sankar

nang2 said:


> I cheer for any accomplishment by other countries, no matter how small, as long as it is not at the cost of China. While Tejas is not the best jet fighter in the world, it is the result of hard working Indians. It is the hard work that earns respect. Of course, I will stop praising the moment it starts to shoot at Chinese.



Nice conversation, Fair enough.


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## knight11

mkb95 said:


> su30mki coupled with brahmos will be our one of the most important strategic weapon system.this will be the first time iaf will get true deep penetration capability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> question-is there plane of integrating brahmos with naval mig29?



Answer is airlaunch Brahmos - NG, which is smaller, lighter and could be carried not only by the MKI, but other fighter planes like Mig-29, and 29K.

Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?

*Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?*

Hearing from sources that Israel after offering India their 2052 AESA with GaA modules for different jets upgrade programs (LCA MK1A, Jaguars and later Mirages), they have proposed to make the GaN AESA through a JV with India. 

_Elta's offer, however, came with the condition that at least one more fighter in the IAF's inventory should field the ELM-2052 AESA radar. To sweeten the deal, Elta offered to work jointly with HAL on an improved version of the ELM-2052.

This was a win-win for both Elta and HAL. "Look at the market HAL provides Elta. The 61 Jaguars being upgraded to DARIN-3 would all be fitted with the ELM-2052. At least 100 Tejas would get the improved version, possibly with more to follow. Meanwhile, 50 IAF Mirage-2000 fighters are being upgraded, but with a manual radar that could become obsolescent quickly. So the improved AESA could eventually equip the Mirage fleet too,adding up to 200-plus radars," says Raju.(Chmn HAL)_

The latest twist in the story is that they have proposed the upgraded GaN AESA for Super Sukhoi MLU program. The backend software help will be provided by Israel only. Israel has cited that recent technology development it has done for its cutting edge F35 customization has enabled it to have a 360 degree viewing day and night assimilation which can be integrated to the pilots cockpit for MKI upgrade.

This technological leap has stumped IAF and MOD as they were expecting a sensor fusion upgradation package from Russia for Super program and a further step up in the same sensor fusion in their coveted 5th Gen FGFA/PAKFA program.

Israel had asked for ZERO cost for development or time for GaN AESA radar development and has indicated its strongest desire to have the JV and participate in Make In India program.

IAF chief Raha, DM MP both has requested PM NaMo to have a further discussion with the Russian counterparts in their December Summit and seek out whats there in the radar and sensor fusion package to have a comparison, cost and benefit analysis. Since Su 30 MKI has already french and israeli tech, the possibility of having this upgrade from Israel is actually very tempting.

The source says 

_"From 200 GaA AESA add 350 GaN AESA (MKI eventually will reach 350 with an additional tranche prepared to order beyond 272) and minimum of 100+ RBE 2 AESA all under 5th gen jets implies IAF is potentially looking at 700 AESA equipped jets. With 5th Gen birds and their AESA tech eventually with retirement also of some birds, IAF is looking at minimum of 800-850+ AESA equipped jets. They key now is time bound decision making and implementation. The face of IAF can be changed to a far more destructive lean and mean force in a short time if we get this done"_

Source: Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?

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## Echo_419

mkb95 said:


> bcos we are not used to getting praise for tejas from non-indian especially on pdf.



Looks like he is an undercover Indian agent pretending to be Indian 


nang2 said:


> I cheer for any accomplishment by other countries, no matter how small, as long as it is not at the cost of China. While Tejas is not the best jet fighter in the world, it is the result of hard working Indians. It is the hard work that earns respect. Of course, I will stop praising the moment it starts to shoot at Chinese.



I understand 
Wink wink


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## nang2

Echo_419 said:


> Looks like he is an undercover Indian agent pretending to be Indian
> 
> 
> I understand
> Wink wink



You meant "pretending to be Chinese", right?

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## PARIKRAMA

A quick trivia questions:

First question
Most public records in net says India uses Nuke delivery via Mirages and Jaguars.
With the Super 30 upgrade will the upgraded Sukhois will be used for N delivery? 
Or will they continue their air superiority role for Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft like Rafales, Mirages, Jags for N Delivery? 

The second trivia question
Brahmos NG or say Something similar like ASMP ALCM will be used for high value targets for precision strikes via conventional warheads or augmented for N Strikes via N warhead?

That brings to third question
Will Super 30 upgrade the Su30 MKI A2A skills only or its a program to improve A2G with features like terrain hugging ?(mind you airframe of MKI is not designed for that)


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## Capt.Popeye

mkb95 said:


> su30mki coupled with brahmos will be our one of the most important strategic weapon system.this will be the first time iaf will get true deep penetration capability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> question-is there plane of integrating brahmos with naval mig29?




The Brahmos-M will be carried on IN's MiG-29s.


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## Echo_419

nang2 said:


> You meant "pretending to be Chinese", right?


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## Bharat_Bhakt

knight11 said:


> Answer is airlaunch Brahmos - NG, which is smaller, lighter and could be carried not only by the MKI, but other fighter planes like Mig-29, and 29K.
> 
> Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?
> 
> *Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?*
> 
> Hearing from sources that Israel after offering India their 2052 AESA with GaA modules for different jets upgrade programs (LCA MK1A, Jaguars and later Mirages), they have proposed to make the GaN AESA through a JV with India.
> 
> _Elta's offer, however, came with the condition that at least one more fighter in the IAF's inventory should field the ELM-2052 AESA radar. To sweeten the deal, Elta offered to work jointly with HAL on an improved version of the ELM-2052.
> 
> This was a win-win for both Elta and HAL. "Look at the market HAL provides Elta. The 61 Jaguars being upgraded to DARIN-3 would all be fitted with the ELM-2052. At least 100 Tejas would get the improved version, possibly with more to follow. Meanwhile, 50 IAF Mirage-2000 fighters are being upgraded, but with a manual radar that could become obsolescent quickly. So the improved AESA could eventually equip the Mirage fleet too,adding up to 200-plus radars," says Raju.(Chmn HAL)_
> 
> The latest twist in the story is that they have proposed the upgraded GaN AESA for Super Sukhoi MLU program. The backend software help will be provided by Israel only. Israel has cited that recent technology development it has done for its cutting edge F35 customization has enabled it to have a 360 degree viewing day and night assimilation which can be integrated to the pilots cockpit for MKI upgrade.
> 
> This technological leap has stumped IAF and MOD as they were expecting a sensor fusion upgradation package from Russia for Super program and a further step up in the same sensor fusion in their coveted 5th Gen FGFA/PAKFA program.
> 
> Israel had asked for ZERO cost for development or time for GaN AESA radar development and has indicated its strongest desire to have the JV and participate in Make In India program.
> 
> IAF chief Raha, DM MP both has requested PM NaMo to have a further discussion with the Russian counterparts in their December Summit and seek out whats there in the radar and sensor fusion package to have a comparison, cost and benefit analysis. Since Su 30 MKI has already french and israeli tech, the possibility of having this upgrade from Israel is actually very tempting.
> 
> The source says
> 
> _"From 200 GaA AESA add 350 GaN AESA (MKI eventually will reach 350 with an additional tranche prepared to order beyond 272) and minimum of 100+ RBE 2 AESA all under 5th gen jets implies IAF is potentially looking at 700 AESA equipped jets. With 5th Gen birds and their AESA tech eventually with retirement also of some birds, IAF is looking at minimum of 800-850+ AESA equipped jets. They key now is time bound decision making and implementation. The face of IAF can be changed to a far more destructive lean and mean force in a short time if we get this done"_
> 
> Source: Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?


Dont know weather Russia will allow but if somehow we have a Gan based indo israeli AESA radar on MKI then it will be more lethal than Russian air force Su-35's

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## ANPP

PARIKRAMA said:


> A quick trivia questions:
> 
> First question
> Most public records in net says India uses Nuke delivery via Mirages and Jaguars.
> With the Super 30 upgrade will the upgraded Sukhois will be used for N delivery?
> Or will they continue their air superiority role for Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft like Rafales, Mirages, Jags for N Delivery?
> 
> The second trivia question
> Brahmos NG or say Something similar like ASMP ALCM will be used for high value targets for precision strikes via conventional warheads or augmented for N Strikes via N warhead?
> 
> That brings to third question
> Will Super 30 upgrade the Su30 MKI A2A skills only or its a program to improve A2G with features like terrain hugging ?(mind you airframe of MKI is not designed for that)




Miraj used to be India's main nuclear deterrent asset in past. Cannt say about current situation but just see IAF still dont have better plane than miraj for nuclear bomb( even not mki). Offcourse Rafale will replace the miraj for sure. Though IAF do use few prithvi 2 missiles.

Brahmose, a cruise missle, for nuclear delivery....hell no. Brahmose will be used for conventional targets, offcourse high value targets.

MKI upgrades primarily focused on avionics upgrades. That will improve not only A2A performance but also A2G. But will IAF will use these a/c for A2G role will depend on circumstances. Major platform upgrades expect stealth improvement might not happen.

Nowadays, role of fighters is not limited to few areas. It is expected for fighter that it will perform all war time duties. Yes, IAF would like to use mki for air superiority and air cover. But in any unlike condition mki will do ground role also.
As per IAF, they use mki from conventional roles to mini AWACS to even carpet bombing.

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## PARIKRAMA

ANPP said:


> Miraj used to be India's main nuclear deterrent asset in past. Cannt say about current situation but just see IAF still dont have better plane than miraj for nuclear bomb( even not mki). Offcourse Rafale will replace the miraj for sure. Though IAF do use few prithvi 2 missiles.
> 
> Brahmose, a cruise missle, for nuclear delivery....hell no. Brahmose will be used for conventional targets, offcourse high value targets.
> 
> MKI upgrades primarily focused on avionics upgrades. That will improve not only A2A performance but also A2G. But will IAF will use these a/c for A2G role will depend on circumstances. Major platform upgrades expect stealth improvement might not happen.
> 
> Nowadays, role of fighters is not limited to few areas. It is expected for fighter that it will perform all war time duties. Yes, IAF would like to use mki for air superiority and air cover. But in any unlike condition mki will do ground role also.
> As per IAF, they use mki from conventional roles to mini AWACS to even carpet bombing.



Nicely summed up Sir.. Good to hear the first opinion on this ..


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## knight11

Bharat_Bhakt said:


> Dont know weather Russia will allow but if somehow we have a Gan based indo israeli AESA radar on MKI then it will be more lethal than Russian air force Su-35's



If I am the decission maker than I would simply decline any such offer, because for MKI which have N011M Bars Radar, which is between AESA and PESA, better option is to upgrade this Radar, with AESA Antenna, upgrade the Radar computer and its software which would be more economical plus it will free us hassle for the integration of the Russian weapons which MKI possess. 



ANPP said:


> Miraj used to be India's main nuclear deterrent asset in past. Cannt say about current situation but just see IAF still dont have better plane than miraj for nuclear bomb( even not mki). Offcourse Rafale will replace the miraj for sure. Though IAF do use few prithvi 2 missiles.



For Nuclear dilevery with the fighter plane what is needed is the Hardened avionics aka all the electronics of the fighter plane are shielded from the Nuclear blast impulses. I think Rafale and MKI suits this role pretty much, which could fire nuclear tip cruise missile from strandoff distance. I think 50 MKI should be given to SPF for such role, under the nuclear command fly by IAF pilots.



ANPP said:


> MKI upgrades primarily focused on avionics upgrades. That will improve not only A2A performance but also A2G. But will IAF will use these a/c for A2G role will depend on circumstances. Major platform upgrades expect stealth improvement might not happen.
> 
> Nowadays, role of fighters is not limited to few areas. It is expected for fighter that it will perform all war time duties. Yes, IAF would like to use mki for air superiority and air cover. But in any unlike condition mki will do ground role also.
> As per IAF, they use mki from conventional roles to mini AWACS to even carpet bombing.



MKI used for Carpet bombing is the waste of assets and should be given to the Jaguar and MIG-27.

Yes I agree after Super Sukhoi upgrade the MKI would be upgraded to Strike fighter cum Airsuperiority fighter plane. What I heard for the Super Sukhoi upgrade is

1. Aesa for Sure -- Probably Upgraded BARS
2. Internal Virgilus Jammer
3. R-77M -- Long range BVR --max 180 KM
4. BAE Cassidan MAWS
5. OLS-35
6. Streghtening of Airframe to carry 3 Brahmos.
7. KH-34P and other Strandoff Weapons
8. Python-5 WVR
9. Aerial Decoy
10. Upgraded Engine with better MTO and thrust
11. Upgraded Mission Computer, and glass cockpit
12 Dash Helmet
13 RCS reduction.
14. Sensor fussion

Super Sukhoi 30MKI than could perform SEAD, DEAD, Jamming, Ground attack from strandoff weapon, Air superiority.

*My wish*

1. Air frame strengthening, and Sukhoi Certificate of Low altitute 8G.
2. Tech from PAK FA
3. Weapons developed for PAK FA
4. Superior Computing power with fully integration of Indian Air force Battle Management with real time network with IAF Satellite and network.
5. Superior Sensors and 360 degree Radar, to give full spectrum and sensor fussion.



PARIKRAMA said:


> First question
> Most public records in net says India uses Nuke delivery via Mirages and Jaguars.
> With the Super 30 upgrade will the upgraded Sukhois will be used for N delivery?
> Or will they continue their air superiority role for Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft like Rafales, Mirages, Jags for N Delivery?



I think the nuclear Delivery from fighter plane would be given to 50 Super Su 30MKI which will be under SPF command that will bring the total MKI number in India build to 350.



PARIKRAMA said:


> The second trivia question
> Brahmos NG or say Something similar like ASMP ALCM will be used for high value targets for precision strikes via conventional warheads or augmented for N Strikes via N warhead?



For Nuclear Strike Brahmos is totally waste, any stealthy Subsonic cruise missile could delver that weapon because a nuclear explosion is made around few KM in air not on the ground for maximum destruction.
Brahmos NG should be used for the hardened target and high value target.



PARIKRAMA said:


> That brings to third question
> Will Super 30 upgrade the Su30 MKI A2A skills only or its a program to improve A2G with features like terrain hugging ?(mind you airframe of MKI is not designed for that)



Aesa Radar have the capability for ground SAR mapping for terrain hugging, but unfortunately MKI is not certify to fly with fuel and weapon load at that terrain hugging low altitute profile by OEM aka Sukhoi, thats why the need for the Rafale. Best we can make Super Sukhoi Su30 MKI as Su 34 Pull back, not Su-24.

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## PARIKRAMA

knight11 said:


> If I am the decission maker than I would simply decline any such offer, because for MKI which have N011M Bars Radar, which is between AESA and PESA, better option is to upgrade this Radar, with AESA Antenna, upgrade the Radar computer and its software which would be more economical plus it will free us hassle for the integration of the Russian weapons which MKI possess.
> 
> 
> 
> For Nuclear dilevery with the fighter plane what is needed is the Hardened avionics aka all the electronics of the fighter plane are shielded from the Nuclear blast impulses. I think Rafale and MKI suits this role pretty much, which could fire nuclear tip cruise missile from strandoff distance. I think 50 MKI should be given to SPF for such role, under the nuclear command fly by IAF pilots.
> 
> 
> 
> MKI used for Carpet bombing is the waste of assets and should be given to the Jaguar and MIG-27.
> 
> Yes I agree after Super Sukhoi upgrade the MKI would be upgraded to Strike fighter cum Airsuperiority fighter plane. What I heard for the Super Sukhoi upgrade is
> 
> 1. Aesa for Sure -- Probably Upgraded BARS
> 2. Internal Virgilus Jammer
> 3. R-77M -- Long range BVR --max 180 KM
> 4. BAE Cassidan MAWS
> 5. OLS-35
> 6. Streghtening of Airframe to carry 3 Brahmos.
> 7. KH-34P and other Strandoff Weapons
> 8. Python-5 WVR
> 9. Aerial Decoy
> 10. Upgraded Engine with better MTO and thrust
> 11. Upgraded Mission Computer, and glass cockpit
> 12 Dash Helmet
> 13 RCS reduction.
> 14. Sensor fussion
> 
> Super Sukhoi 30MKI than could perform SEAD, DEAD, Jamming, Ground attack from strandoff weapon, Air superiority.
> 
> *My wish*
> 
> 1. Air frame strengthening, and Sukhoi Certificate of Low altitute 8G.
> 2. Tech from PAK FA
> 3. Weapons developed for PAK FA
> 4. Superior Computing power with fully integration of Indian Air force Battle Management with real time network with IAF Satellite and network.
> 5. Superior Sensors and 360 degree Radar, to give full spectrum and sensor fussion.



As usual bro, you come out with some good data..

Air frame strengthening for low altitude will require extensive modification.. especially since airframe is already getting reinforced perhaps for a CM under Belly like Brahmos as of now and later the Brahmos A or Mini which is suppose to be smaller and MKI can carry 3 in numbers.

But Bars does have one serious flaw. The Terrain avoidance mode is not there as compared to a Su34 radar and airframe optimised for low altitude missions. Then again MKI is a Air Superiority beast and Russia clearly has other A2G mission optimised birds like Su34s...
The niip site does not talk about terrain following/avoidance at all
Radar control system "BARS" for Su-30MKI, Su-30MKA, Su-30MKM fighters

Sensor fusion and a upgraded internal EW suite can be a good breakthrough coupled with say a new BMS as defined by you..

BTW any idea of timelines for Super upgrade..



knight11 said:


> I think the nuclear Delivery from fighter plane would be given to 50 Super Su 30MKI which will be under SPF command that will bring the total MKI number in India build to 350.



If its not a CM like Brahmos with N warhead, then i am assuming it would be a N bomb free fall drop types right? Now why would you like a flanker with highest RCS announcing its arrival carrying a free fall type mission? 
Wont it make more sense to let a DPSA handle that and let all MKIs do air superiority to protect the package and since the package delivery requires hardened mode the choices are limited is nt it?
On top the terrain hugging or low altitude flying is not a key choice for MKIs.


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## knight11

PARIKRAMA said:


> But Bars does have one serious flaw. The Terrain avoidance mode is not there as compared to a Su34 radar and airframe optimised for low altitude missions. Then again MKI is a Air Superiority beast and Russia clearly has other A2G mission optimised birds like Su34s...
> The niip site does not talk about terrain following/avoidance at all
> Radar control system "BARS" for Su-30MKI, Su-30MKA, Su-30MKM fighters



That is not called flaw, rather that Mode was not available/needed. N011M in MKI got its full capability i.e Ground mapping in 2010.
When we talk about the Radar its mostly software and we actually see i.e hardware is just 20% (Mechanism to create beam and sensors to read the return) and rest 80% is the software, so lot of computation is required at the background for different mode simultaneously and the full capability of Bars N011M is highly confidential, thats why IAF always used it in training mode during friendly exercise with other nations.

All Aesa have the capability of mapping the ground in big spectrum which is needed to make the image of the terrain for the terrain avoidance, terrain hugging, low altitude profile. For doing low profile, radar avoidance profile you would also need high quality sensors, and its sensors fussion like SPECTRA EW Suite.

For N. attack you would also need NAV attack device on board on the birds nose -- For IAF its available with MKI, Mirrage 2000 UPG, and Jaguar presently.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Sensor fusion and a upgraded internal EW suite can be a good breakthrough coupled with say a new BMS as defined by you..



That is the need of the present and future confrontation which will be high intensity, short duration clash.
With Super Sukhoi EW upgradation will be designed by DARE which includes EADS/Cassidian MAWS, SAAB tech RWS, LWS, Virgilus Internal Jammer, Upgraded HAL/Edgewood Mission Computer aka SPECTRA for MKI.



PARIKRAMA said:


> BTW any idea of timelines for Super upgrade..



2017 onwards



PARIKRAMA said:


> If its not a CM like Brahmos with N warhead, then i am assuming it would be a N bomb free fall drop types right? Now why would you like a flanker with highest RCS announcing its arrival carrying a free fall type mission?
> Wont it make more sense to let a DPSA handle that and let all MKIs do air superiority to protect the package and since the package delivery requires hardened mode the choices are limited is nt it?
> On top the terrain hugging or low altitude flying is not a key choice for MKIs.



Free fall N. Bomb LOLZ why not long range Glide bomb.

KH-55/ KH-101/ KH-102 (RCS of 0.01 sq m)

When the package has to be delivered the deliver platform don't fly alone, rather protected by a group of other aircraft providing fleet jamming, ground jammers, aerial decoys, and protection and delivery could will be done from strandoff distance via cruise missile and there are two things

1. *First Strike* --- SPF Super Sukhoi 30MKI aerial refueling with tanker and covering MKI

2. *Second Strike* --- Rafale, Mirrage 2005, Jaguar buddy buddy refueling with MKI

I excluded any tactical nuclear strike.

PS. There is no open source information available for which aircraft is used for the N delivery using fighter aircraft. Infact any aircraft could be used for that purpose, but needs some modification, some of them heavy and some of them few.

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## PARIKRAMA

knight11 said:


> When the package has to be delivered the deliver platform don't fly alone, rather protected by a group of other aircraft providing fleet jamming, ground jammers, aerial decoys, and protection and delivery could will be done from strandoff distance via cruise missile and there are two things
> 
> 1. *First Strike* --- SPF Super Sukhoi 30MKI aerial refueling with tanker and covering MKI
> 
> 2. *Second Strike* --- Rafale, Mirrage 2005, Jaguar buddy buddy refueling with MKI
> 
> I excluded any tactical nuclear strike.



What about SEAD and DEAD missions? Wont they be pre empt to First Strike?


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## Kompromat

Please keep it technical and on the topic.


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## knight11

PARIKRAMA said:


> What about SEAD and DEAD missions? Wont they be pre empt to First Strike?



SEAD and DEAD is required if you want to fly few rounds to target specific target but for N. package delivery, its just deliver the package from safe strandoff distance via cruise missile, and turn back. Jamming/reduction of ground radars and awacs of enemy would be needed, which would be done with the jammers retrofitted to the wing tips and powerful ground radars near border to reduce the enemy AWAAC power. 

Actually whole mission is a complex game with multiple fake flight of MKI flying close to border and return, to create confussion, Aerial decoys, UAV emitting same radar return etc etc and between them a lone package delivery platform flying to its ultimate destination at low altitute, aerial refuled with budy budy or tanker.



Horus said:


> Please keep it technical and on the topic.



??

What part do you think is offtopic Sir ?

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## PARIKRAMA

knight11 said:


> SEAD and DEAD is required if you want to fly few rounds to target specific target but for N. package delivery, its just deliver the package from safe strandoff distance via cruise missile, and turn back. Jamming/reduction of ground radars and awacs of enemy would be needed, which would be done with the jammers retrofitted to the wing tips and powerful ground radars near border to reduce the enemy AWAAC power.
> 
> Actually whole mission is a complex game with multiple fake flight of MKI flying close to border and return, to create confussion, Aerial decoys, UAV emitting same radar return etc etc and between them a lone package delivery platform flying to its ultimate destination at low altitute, aerial refuled with budy budy or tanker.
> 
> 
> 
> ??
> 
> What part do you think is offtopic Sir ?




But bro, judging by what you are saying the strategic role of IAF continues with MKIs now and super MKIs in future.

That implies tactical or low level roles for other fleet members including mirages, jags and later rafales

Now if tactical role is only envisioned then a more cost intensive solution could have been having a tactical fighter bomber like Su34 replacing mig27s, jags and mirages all at one go..

This analogy implies even with super upgrade if IAF still wants another jet like Rafale, the strategic role will not have super MKIs. Alcm or standoff glide of strategic nature if super MKI was envisioned would have automatically led to striking off of jets like Rafale EF etc from MMRCA itself.

The more ominous signs point super MKI in air superiority role only.. And primary strategic role handled by another category of jets.


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> First question
> Most public records in net says India uses Nuke delivery via Mirages and Jaguars.
> With the Super 30 upgrade will the upgraded Sukhois will be used for N delivery?


You have answered your own question bro. What does the IAF currently designate as its nuclear delivery a/c? The Mirages and Jags- both optimised for low-level strike missions. 

The MKI is not a low-level strike fighter, it is and will remain a air dominance fighter. The addtion of the Brahmos-A changes little as this is a stand-off weapon meant to be fired from friendly airspace, the MKI would not be flying in low into enemy airspace to launch this ALCM. Nothing I have read on the Super MKI upgrade has stated the MKI is being optimised for deep penetration misions and it was never certified to do so (airframe or radar). The nuclear strike mission will remain with the Mirages, Jags and in the future the Rafales- the latter being the "daddy" of 21st century nuclear strike fighter bombers thanks to the French's emphasis on this mission profile being core to the Rafale.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> You have answered your own question bro. What does the IAF currently designate as its nuclear delivery a/c? The Mirages and Jags- both optimised for low-level strike missions.
> 
> The MKI is not a low-level strike fighter, it is and will remain a air dominance fighter. The addtion of the Brahmos-A changes little as this is a stand-off weapon meant to be fired from friendly airspace, the MKI would not be flying in low into enemy airspace to launch this ALCM. Nothing I have read on the Super MKI upgrade has stated the MKI is being optimised for deep penetration misions and it was never certified to do so (airframe or radar). The nuclear strike mission will remain with the Mirages, Jags and in the future the Rafales- the latter being the "daddy" of 21st century nuclear strike fighter bombers thanks to the French's emphasis on this mission profile being core to the Rafale.




My question is a trick question bro..
i have said before that 36 Raffy goes to Strategic core being 5% approx of fleet strength. But then again i was trying to understand the logic of Super 30 MKI from the realms of tactical and strategic missions.
Your answer is almost whats in my mind from the start.. Just wanted to re learn new points which i might have overlooked..


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## ANPP

knight11 said:


> For Nuclear dilevery with the fighter plane what is needed is the Hardened avionics aka all the electronics of the fighter plane are shielded from the Nuclear blast impulses. I think Rafale and MKI suits this role pretty much, which could fire nuclear tip cruise missile from strandoff distance. I think 50 MKI should be given to SPF for such role, under the nuclear command fly by IAF pilots.



Problems with cruise missile is far higher. First space constraint in misslie. So have to develop separate warhead. This nuclear warhead with missile gives very little scope of versatility. I mean when miraj inducted in force they were best and if mki has proof him better so IAF just started using them for nuke delivery. If miraj were using missiles for nuke than those warheads are just waste for mki.
No need to say, we can use any fighter for nuke but not randomly picked pilot.
Limited number export of rafale do justify their use for SEAD and especial missins.



> MKI used for Carpet bombing is the waste of assets and should be given to the Jaguar and MIG-27.



Nope actauly mki is better for carpet bombing. Bird capable of delivering tons of ammu. Jaguar and mig just dont have such things.



> 6. Streghtening of Airframe to carry 3 Brahmos.
> 7. KH-34P and other Strandoff Weapons
> 8. Python-5 WVR
> Super Sukhoi 30MKI than could perform SEAD, DEAD, Jamming, Ground attack from strandoff weapon, Air superiority.



That would be waste of money. Let us see what IAF will demand in these birds.

*



My wish

Click to expand...

*


> 1. Air frame strengthening, and Sukhoi Certificate of Low altitute 8G.
> 2. Tech from PAK FA
> 3. Weapons developed for PAK FA
> 4. Superior Computing power with fully integration of Indian Air force Battle Management with real time network with IAF Satellite and network.
> 5. Superior Sensors and 360 degree Radar, to give full spectrum and sensor fussion.




All this is just too ambitious. lol.
Mki should be improve as it was not as su34.

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## W@rwolf

With the advent of nuke tipped ALCM, deep penetration of enemy airspace for nuke deliveries become irrelevant. The missiles can the launched from stand-off distances away from enemy air defence envelop or even from friendly airspace.
And the MKI fits into that role like a glove.

1. The heavy payload capability of the MKI makes it capable of carrying the Brahmos air launched version tipped with conventional or nuke warheads depending on the mission. The 42 MKI slated to undergo modernization 'could' replace the Mirages of the SFC (and the role of the Jags too upto an extend) as the spear head for the air-leg of the triad during a retaliatory strike. In the future, it'll carry the Brahmos-NG and the Nirbhay ALCM.

2. Rafale will be tasked with SEAD/DEAD/precision strike missions and also CAS deep enemy territory with low level flights during conventional warfare. They will also provide EW protection for the strike fleet.

3. MKI's are already performing CAS roles with dedicated squadrons already in place. (the sqdn that participated in the Ex Indradhanush was one)

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## knight11

PARIKRAMA said:


> But bro, judging by what you are saying the strategic role of IAF continues with MKIs now and super MKIs in future.
> 
> That implies tactical or low level roles for other fleet members including mirages, jags and later rafales
> 
> Now if tactical role is only envisioned then a more cost intensive solution could have been having a tactical fighter bomber like Su34 replacing mig27s, jags and mirages all at one go..
> 
> This analogy implies even with super upgrade if IAF still wants another jet like Rafale, the strategic role will not have super MKIs. Alcm or standoff glide of strategic nature if super MKI was envisioned would have automatically led to striking off of jets like Rafale EF etc from MMRCA itself.
> 
> The more ominous signs point super MKI in air superiority role only.. And primary strategic role handled by another category of jets.



Sorry for such late answer,

however starting India should have air drop nuclear bomb design which would be delivered from fighter plane. Now this is my assessment, how would be the design of such bomb. A bombs should be equipped with parachute and was programmed to be released from a predefined altitude over the target, with the timer which will trigger at preset time. Some reports indicated India did equipped couple of Mirrage 2000 for that role, and some Jaguar.
The platform should be capable of flying deep inside the enemy airspace probably low altitude profile to avoid radar detection, and near the target rise to high altitude to release the bomb and needs air cover from enemy fighter planes.

But now the better option is to deliver via the cruise missile, or other strandoff delivery platform like GPS guided glide bomb. You are correct that Rafale have low RCS, and could fly in terrain hugging profile, and can carry Nuke, but the problem is if cruise missile is the delivery option, than MKI is best suited -- Reasons

1. India is license building SU-30MKI.
2. With Russia India could strategically make certain deals secretly.
3. Which Cruise missile do you want to use for Nuke delivery, and certainly India have many Russian Cruise missile, and active cruise missile program like Brahmos NG, and Nirbhay Mini which would be fit on the aircraft called Super Sukhoi MKI not the rafale.
4. Note- MKI cannot fly low altitude in terrain hugging, terrain avoidance does not means it cannot, rather you need the ground radar, to map the ground which modern Radar like AESA or even PESA N011 M radar can do, and the airframe which can take the stress of some level like say 8.5 G, which in this case is not certified by the OEM i.e Sukhoi/IRKUT.

*And most important the Strategic command asked for the SU-30MKI-- 40 nos under the strategic command, and at that time there was no Rafale there.*



ANPP said:


> Problems with cruise missile is far higher. First space constraint in misslie. So have to develop separate warhead. This nuclear warhead with missile gives very little scope of versatility. I mean when miraj inducted in force they were best and if mki has proof him better so IAF just started using them for nuke delivery. If miraj were using missiles for nuke than those warheads are just waste for mki.
> No need to say, we can use any fighter for nuke but not randomly picked pilot.
> Limited number export of rafale do justify their use for SEAD and especial missins.



Problem with dropping the Bomb is that the fighter plane has to come close to the target to deliver, but doing so close to SAM, and air defence system, and near enemy space. With Cruise Missile, it could be done from the Strandoff and our own space.



ANPP said:


> Nope actauly mki is better for carpet bombing. Bird capable of delivering tons of ammu. Jaguar and mig just dont have such things.



Depend on how you think. Do you want a 125 Million a piece bird, with 2 dedicated Pilots to be used to drop the dump bomb, and not doing what it is specialized i.e Air Superiority. For you information Jaguar and MIG 27 both are the speciallized ground attack fighter aircraft, and what does it means, that they are fitted with the ground radar, not the A2A radar, and Jaguar, with its NAV attack device on its nose can deliver those dumb bomb precisely where it should be placed. And yes offcource both are certified to fly at low altitude with the drop load, which MKI don't pocess. Jaguar can fly at the tree top level at the supersonic speed with the long range aka deep strike capability.
MIG-27 have the bullet proof armour around the area where the Pilot sits, needed, when you attack the armoured formation with its 4 50mm guns, it will cause the havoc when from the sky its coming to the enemy doing straffing fire (same which was tried during the Kargil war, *at the high altitude* which was never attempted before anywhere with this bird, but the gun fire at such rate causes the engine to flame out)and this plane can take the enemy machine gun fire which your other fighter plane cannot.



ANPP said:


> That would be waste of money. Let us see what IAF will demand in these birds.



It will be waste ????
1. Air frame strengthening, not only allows the longer life of the airframe as it would be able to take more stress.

2. KH-34P ARM for SEAD Mission because its range is around 200 KM.

3. Python-5 because it will be inducted in IAF and InAF, and it is the most dangerous WVR missile in the world and provide 360 degree coverage and the offbore sight of 90 degree, which the R-73 don't give.



ANPP said:


> All this is just too ambitious. lol.
> Mki should be improve as it was not as su34.



OK.

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## Abingdonboy

knight11 said:


> *And most important the Strategic command asked for the SU-30MKI-- 40 nos under the strategic command, and at that time there was no Rafale there.*


This is actually a myth.

The MKI is not a suitable n-delivery platform, the SFC asked for 40 aircraft of its own but never specified which aircraft.

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## W@rwolf

Abingdonboy said:


> The MKI is not a suitable n-delivery platform, the SFC asked for 40 aircraft of its own but never specified which aircraft.



Actually, the 42 MKIs being modernized to carry BrahMos will be under SFC control.

"In September 2010 India’s newly constituted tri-services *Strategic Forces Command (SFC)* submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up *two dedicated squadrons* of aircraft comprising 40 Su-30MKI air dominance fighters. The task of this “mini air force” is to *deliver nuclear weapons*."

Why the BrahMos armed Sukhoi is bad news for India’s enemies | Russia & India Report

Strategic Command to acquire 40 nuclear capable fighters | delhi | Hindustan Times

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## Abingdonboy

W@rwolf said:


> Actually, the 42 MKIs being modernized to carry BrahMos will be under SFC control.
> 
> "In September 2010 India’s newly constituted tri-services *Strategic Forces Command (SFC)* submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up *two dedicated squadrons* of aircraft comprising 40 Su-30MKI air dominance fighters. The task of this “mini air force” is to *deliver nuclear weapons*."


This was misreported, the two stories (SFC's request and Brahmos launch capability being added to MKIs) were put together when they are entirely unlinked. 

As @PARIKRAMA has stated, the MKI's electronics aren't hardened for N-delivery nor are they certified for low level deep penetraton strike missions as would be required for the N-delivery role

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## W@rwolf

Abingdonboy said:


> This was misreported, the two stories (SFC's request and Brahmos launch capability being added to MKIs) were put together when they are entirely unlinked.



We'll your point would have been true if the MKI was supposed to drop nuclear dumb bombs. But with the Brahmos, the MKI's would not have to fly low as they can fire the missiles from a stand-off distance while the missile itself follows a hi-lo-hi flight profile. And the upgrade will surely include nuclear hardening of all electronic components in the aircraft including double redundancy.

The almost same number of aircrafts required that to the ones being upgraded is too much of a coincidence to have been misinterpreted.

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## PARIKRAMA

Brahmos warhead is around 200kg.. Based on a demonstrated design the yield is 50KT for 250kgs weight.

So approximately 35KT yield for 200kg standoff Missile

The french ASMP is having a same warhead of 200kg armed with TN 81 but yield is proven 150kt -300kt depending upon single or dual options

Nirbhay alcm version is expected to have warhead of approx 400 -450 kgs with reduced range of maximum 1000 km more like 800-1000 km whereas land version can hit upto 1500 km. That's the missile for 150kt warhead

Thus effectively all arguments of brahmos is clearly a high precision low yield Missile.

Secondly, any aircraft which uses stand off missiles at long range don't require radiation hardening per say. So its foolish to assume that the modified su30mki are radiation hardened.

On the other hand mirages are suppose to carry the free fall n bomb implying they are within the radiation emp effect at the time of detonation and thus they require radiation hardening.

You must understand as I said before the 5-10% rule for nuke force of entire fleet size. The force will have a bird capable of dropping free fall nuclear bombs. That's why radiation hardened. The rest of MKIs are any way first phase as later the mini brahmos will also capable to carry a 150kg low yield 30kt device.. These are all standoff launches from long range but are not necessarily part of SFC..

The machines of SFC will have anytime minimum of 80% availability.. That's why jags with 90% in IAF and Rafales with Proposed 90% is being looked bcz they are for free fall devices. The stand off Missile ones don't require such high availability. If MKI is to be inducted in SFC will require minimum 80% availability criteria. Now you know the answer for that if MKI can achieve it or not..

Lastly brahmos mini and Nirbhay alcm will at an appropriate time will be available for integration to rafales. The Indian customisation does nt say astra, it says indigenous missiles for which suitable support will be provided for integration. So it will be integrated in aphased manner.

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## W@rwolf

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thus effectively all arguments of brahmos is clearly a high precision low yield Missile.



precisely



PARIKRAMA said:


> Secondly, any aircraft which uses stand off missiles at long range don't require radiation hardening per say. So its foolish to assume that the modified su30mki are radiation hardened.



Nuclear hardening is not necessary for the MKIs. But since they are envisaged to operate in a nuclear battlefield, and since the structure is completed being worked upon, there might be a good chance that they'll get the nuclear hardening treatment.



PARIKRAMA said:


> The rest of MKIs are any way first phase as later the mini brahmos will also capable to carry a 150kg low yield 30kt device.. These are all standoff launches from long range but are not necessarily part of SFC..



True, but only the SFC operated MKIs will have the nuclear tipped cruise missiles.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Now you know the answer for that if MKI can achieve it or not..



Hence the apprehension about its availability and reliability.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Lastly brahmos mini and Nirbhay alcm will at an appropriate time will be available for integration to rafales. The Indian customisation does nt say astra, it says indigenous missiles for which suitable support will be provided for integration. So it will be integrated in aphased manner.



Does the Rafale come with any pre-conditions, so that they are not used for launching a nuclear device?
France will remove the capability to fire ASMPA missiles from our Rafales before being delivered.

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## PARIKRAMA

knight11 said:


> And most important the Strategic command asked for the SU-30MKI-- 40 nos under the strategic command, and at that time there was no Rafale there.



September 2010 SFC asked for 40/birds
June 2010 Dassault offered 40jets outside MMRCA especially for India
The SFC request to UPA was in response to Rafale offer.. It was no way connectwd to MKI modernisation plan for 42 especially for brahmos.

Here is all the proof from public domain

Senior Dassault officials in France briefed visiting Indian Air Force AOC-in-C Eastern Air Command, Air Marshal KK Nowhar, about the Rafale and reiterated the company's willingness/ability to rapidly supply 40 Rafales to the IAF as a stopgap ahead of the MMRCA competition results
LIVEFIST: Dassault Reiterates Pitch To IAF For 40 Fast-Track Rafales

The _Press Trust of India_, reports that India's joint nuclear command -- the Strategic Forces Command -- is looking to procure 40 fighters for two dedicated strategic strike squadrons. The report indicates that while the Indian Air Force's Mirage-2000s, Jaguars and Su-30MKIs have so far been earmarked for the nuclear strike profile, the SFC wants two squadrons of its own. The report says nothing more. The Ministry of Defence has not commented on the report.
A totally separate but tantalizing coincidence -- in June, Dassault offered the IAF a fast-track sale of 40 Rafales to shore up squadron strength ahead of the MMRCA induction. The Rafale is also the only aircraft explicitly described in its bid document as a nuclear capable strike fighter. Answers to those questions above and more details later this evening.
LIVEFIST: PTI: India's Joint Nuclear Command Wants 40 Nuclear Strike Jets


And the 42 MKI news is from August 2010
Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.
Why the cost so high
Bcz Some experts pointed out that Russia's latest offer may include airborne weapons and other accessories, such as a new radar and electronic devices.Addition, the contract may also include ground support equipment.

Thus they are not hardwired type as people believed. The hardwired type increases price by about 20%-25% not 100% as shown in that deal..



W@rwolf said:


> Does the Rafale come with any pre-conditions, so that they are not used for launching a nuclear device?
> France will remove the capability to fire ASMPA missiles from our Rafales before being delivered.



No there is no pre condition as in MMRCA French side clearly declared in the submitted documents as Rafale being nuclear capable whereas none of the other contenders declared that. ASMP capability is nullified as we won't get that anyway. But there is no precondition of its usage in fact it was their selling usp



W@rwolf said:


> True, but only the SFC operated MKIs will have the nuclear tipped cruise missiles.



And that is why I am saying an ALCM nuke tipped as of now is not under our SFC command. The minutrised warhead design with 30kt yield is not what SFC wants and is looking. Since our doctrine talks of irrevocable and massive retaliation, the yields are at anytime expected to be minimum 150KT+ and for us the design is 150KT at 450kg warhead. That punishable strike warhead is intended for a any Missile under SFC. The question to ask is the vintage prithvi had warhead of 1000kg and as above picture shows the N warhead is 800kg of legacy design and yield of 200KT.e have been able to bring down the weight by almost 50% over time but still delivery systems as of now don't have 450kg warhead delivery in ALCM mode.

This the brahmos for the moment with present warhead size and lack of proven tested 150kt yield implies its a high precision conventional strike weapon. If and when Nirbhay alcm comes in then perhaps the capability may change and then SFC may integrate a jet like MKI for n strike role or if we can reduce warhead size further but that would be untested design completely.

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## W@rwolf

PARIKRAMA said:


> This the brahmos for the moment with present warhead size and lack of proven tested 150kt yield implies its a high precision conventional strike weapon.



I understand the need for SFC to demand miniaturized warheads, but can't the current gen warheads even with this reduced yield be used to take out HVTs like CCS, FOBs, staging areas with high troop density, enemy TBM launchers etc before the full retaliation with our BMs?
I mean, the SLBMs, Nirbhays and ALCMs (nuke tipped) will be tasked to take out high priority targets while the IRBMs deliver the bulk of nuke warheads. So, the MKI's with their BrahMos will play an integral role during the second strike, don't you think?

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## PARIKRAMA

W@rwolf said:


> I understand the need for SFC to demand miniaturized warheads, but can't the current gen warheads even with this reduced yield be used to take out HVTs like CCS, FOBs, staging areas with high troop density, enemy TBM launchers etc before the full retaliation with our BMs?
> I mean, the SLBMs, Nirbhays and ALCMs (nuke tipped) will be tasked to take out high priority targets while the IRBMs deliver the bulk of nuke warheads. So, the MKI's with their BrahMos will play an integral role during the second strike, don't you think?


Potentially the Indian Nuclear doctrine will see its N warheads capped at 120-150 max. We may have fissile materials available but will not have large warhead numbers.

Since we do not have what you call as massive thermonuclear bombs in Megaton capacity, the yields at 150Kt and 200KT seems standardized ones. The SLBM since they are completing the triad and is for second strike preference will carry heavy warheads.. An example is K15 with reduced warhead of 500kg to maximise range and with standard warhead weight of 1000 kg for declared range of around 750-800 km. The K4 is even more heavier at around 2 tonnes of warhead suggesting either a process of a much heavier warhead or multiple mini ones aka MIRV.(3x450kg)

It is true high priority targets take precedence but in the same manner Indian N yield being limited portfolio advocates all warheads to be of nominal size which guarantees adequate deterrence. 

A simple analysis like say if Nasr has a warhead around 10-20KT (assuming) then Prahaar with 150km also has 200kg warhead but then India has never talked about a 30-35KT warhead mounted on Prahaar. The missile is N capable but as i said earlier the doctrine as of now dont dictate the lower threshold less than 100-150 KT warheads owing to limited numbers. The standardized 150KT has been our planners first choice simply bcz of easier stable replication and commonality of the warhead across each and every missile set that comes under SFC.

A combat Control system or Forward Operating Base or Staging area with high troop density, tactical TBMs etc - each one of those potential scenarios will see first Hight Explosive munitions or the new Thermobaric type warheads being deployed. IF and when India sees a Tactical warhead of N design being deployed, the doctrine now states India can take on the action of neutralizing first with area wide neutralizing mechanism like Pinaka with such war heads (conventional).

If the engagement heads towards nuclear, there is no limit as India does not have a doctrine stating some targets lower yield and some targets higher yield differentiation. if escalated, the tactical TBM will be met with a 450KG warhead of 150KT to not only deter but also make clear that our strikes sizes wont be small mini ones.

Sadly i would have liked your option and enable 20% of the warheads to be sub 50KT types but for that we need minimum 200-250 warheads so that such warheads with reduced weight design stands at 40-50 in numbers and rest standardized size at 200 implying only 2-3 variants from low, medium and high yield. But as of now its medium and high and perhaps we may never see Low since our doctrine and posture does not permit that.

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## ANPP

knight11 said:


> *And most important the Strategic command asked for the SU-30MKI-- 40 nos under the strategic command, and at that time there was no Rafale there.*
> 
> 
> 
> Problem with dropping the Bomb is that the fighter plane has to come close to the target to deliver, but doing so close to SAM, and air defence system, and near enemy space. With Cruise Missile, it could be done from the Strandoff and our own space.
> 
> 
> 
> Depend on how you think. Do you want a 125 Million a piece bird, with 2 dedicated Pilots to be used to drop the dump bomb, and not doing what it is specialized i.e Air Superiority. For you information Jaguar and MIG 27 both are the speciallized ground attack fighter aircraft, and what does it means, that they are fitted with the ground radar, not the A2A radar, and Jaguar, with its NAV attack device on its nose can deliver those dumb bomb precisely where it should be placed. And yes offcource both are certified to fly at low altitude with the drop load, which MKI don't pocess. Jaguar can fly at the tree top level at the supersonic speed with the long range aka deep strike capability.
> MIG-27 have the bullet proof armour around the area where the Pilot sits, needed, when you attack the armoured formation with its 4 50mm guns, it will cause the havoc when from the sky its coming to the enemy doing straffing fire (same which was tried during the Kargil war, *at the high altitude* which was never attempted before anywhere with this bird, but the gun fire at such rate causes the engine to flame out)and this plane can take the enemy machine gun fire which your other fighter plane cannot.
> 
> 
> t give.
> 
> 
> 
> OK.



I said carpet bombing not Close Air Support!


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## anant_s

Flanker on a dance floor






@Abingdonboy @Oscar @Vauban @Taygibay @PARIKRAMA

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## Hellfire

mkb95 said:


> question-is there plane of integrating brahmos with naval mig29?



No



PARIKRAMA said:


> A quick trivia questions:
> 
> First question
> Most public records in net says India uses Nuke delivery via Mirages and Jaguars.
> With the Super 30 upgrade will the upgraded Sukhois will be used for N delivery?



No. Only as a last resort if at all.




PARIKRAMA said:


> Brahmos NG or say Something similar like ASMP ALCM will be used for high value targets for precision strikes via conventional warheads or augmented for N Strikes via N warhead?



Specify what is the target. Counter force or counter value? It is unclear what do you mean by high value.

@PARIKRAMA So far in your posts you have somehow been talking about deployment of nuclear weapons in dumb bomb via aircrafts, something that I have not understood. What makes you think that the Indian doctrine today relies on toss bombing? And I am seeing free fall dumb bombing in nonconventional role being touted. If am mistaken then apologies for the same, but who is going to be doing that? The An-32s and IL-76s have also stopped their carpet bombing practice years back, and the fighters have no role envisaged for these right now in conventional ops.

Additionally your above contention of limitation of Indian nuclear stockpile being limited to the figure you have quoted is probably about two decades late in coming. You need to understand that the Indian nuclear posturing is not minimal deterrence against Pakistan, but against China and Pakistan combined. The stockpile is much higher - rest assured. Additionally, if you do in fact study the development of Indian nuclear weapons over the past decade and a half, the shift has moved to more sub-kiloton warheads rather than the yield as being touted in ranges above the nominal bomb.

I read in the thread a member stating the deployment of the weapon some kilometers above the ground. Whenever such reference comes up for discussion, these become loose terms. The idea is to speak with the Nominal bomb and extrapolate depending upon that.

One also needs to understand the concept of nuclear planning and targeting. What I have so far seen in the thread being discussed is something that shall never ever come even close to employment stage, let alone have any such consequences.

The Indian nuclear doctrine is very clear and unambiguous, contrary to what the people feel. It states that in case of any CBRN attack, India reserves the right to retaliate with weapon of own choice to cause 'unacceptable' damage to the enemy.

When a statement like this is made, one needs to understand the clarity which exists. In short, India has clearly spelled out that it shall and will be willing to consider retaliation with a nuclear device even in case of a chemical attack on its forces. Or, it may choose to ignore the attack altogether. The flexibility provided by the this statement is tremendous. One needs to be very clear that any use of Chemical/Biological weapons (banned by BWC and CWC both India and Pakistan, also I think, being signatories) is in itself a strategic task. There is nothing known as tactical nuclear strike. Any employment of a nuclear device by opposing forces will put our responses in the realm of strategic (namely the GoI has to take a 'political' decision on type of retaliation).

Moving to the nuclear weapons, a 20 KT nominal bomb will have zero radioactive fallout at 190 meters AGL approximately. At a tactical level, the deployment of a nuke will be a counter force application and the aim will be use the ground after elimination of the opposing forces in the area. Hence, need for minimal fallout. In case of absolute effects, 450 - 500 AGL meters will see maximum effects. It works out to about 500 odd casualties with a 20 KT warhead for a division sized force in defenses (keeping in view the deployment patterns and area occupied by the forces being concentrated). If indeed a nuclear strike is ordered for EMP utilization in knocking off the C2I and C3I and so on of the opposing force, the strike will be in excess of 10000 meters AGL.

India has majorly moved in to subkiloton sphere in order to better control the political aspects of any potential nuclear strike by the opposing forces. The intent will be demonstrated, retaliation will be claiberated and multipronged, yet the targets will remain limited to counter force and not countervalue, thus increasing the probability of conflict resolution at the earliest and enabling better conflict management.

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## SQ8

anant_s said:


> Flanker on a dance floor
> View attachment 291678
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Oscar @Vauban @Taygibay @PARIKRAMA


The dance does nothing in multiple aircraft fights, at best it will help it turn around a disadvantageous position to an advantageous one , until the other aircraft kills it anyway. 

More importantly, against modern missiles like the Piranha, PL-10 and Darter... it as good as the guy in the back seat scratching his back.

The MKI is already a good energy fighter, the TVC was a short sighted add on taken while under the spell of the Russian marketing ploy. All it does is add on weight for an advantage that of use in perhaps only 5% of scenarios.

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## knight11

Oscar said:


> The dance does nothing in multiple aircraft fights, at best it will help it turn around a disadvantageous position to an advantageous one , until the other aircraft kills it anyway.



These Dance shows the capability of the fighter planes, its agility and the FBW, TVC aided flight profile. I agree with you that the air display maneuvers are different than the tactical maneuvers.



Oscar said:


> More importantly, against modern missiles like the Piranha, PL-10 and Darter... it as good as the guy in the back seat scratching his back.



MKI is a air superiority fighter plane, and its advantageous for the airsuperiority fighter plane like MKI to keep distance from the bogey, and shoot them from long distance. No fighter pilot want to indulge in dog fighting. As far as BVR, its more of positional tactics and the one who is at better position wins the fight aka position F and E.

The one in the back seat is not only a WSO, but also can fly the MKI completely, thus giving the MKI effective over long distance, important for the two front war perceptive, as far as MKI is concerned. Huge N011M bars radar, not only give a distictive edge over the adversories, but can also act as the passive sensons. The OLS-30 in MKI also gives the distinctive edge, which is evident in the fact that during the duct exercise the Mirrage 2000 and Mig 29 of IAF were shoot down even before they could detect MKI.



Oscar said:


> The MKI is already a good energy fighter, the TVC was a short sighted add on taken while under the spell of the Russian marketing ploy. All it does is add on weight for an advantage that of use in perhaps only 5% of scenarios.



TVC was a short sighted ?? Are you kidding. TVC is not only allow MKI to quickly point its nose toward enemy, but also removes the AOA limit from the aircraft, that's why EF-2000 is now moving toward TVC nozzle, and is also present in F-22 Raptor.

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## ANPP

Oscar said:


> The dance does nothing in multiple aircraft fights, at best it will help it turn around a disadvantageous position to an advantageous one , until the other aircraft kills it anyway.
> 
> More importantly, against modern missiles like the Piranha, PL-10 and Darter... it as good as the guy in the back seat scratching his back.
> 
> The MKI is already a good energy fighter, the TVC was a short sighted add on taken while under the spell of the Russian marketing ploy. All it does is add on weight for an advantage that of use in perhaps only 5% of scenarios.




I read this comment many times from you sir. I just want to know if missiles perform that good against fighters than why you, whole world and we are spending billions of dollars on fighters. Enemy just need one missile, costs few lakhs of dollars, to blow up million dollar baby.

Instead induct few 10s of big or small awacs. Weaponized them. That is actually the cost effective step. Lesser amount of new platform and such platform can petrol a larger area. All those militry guys are fools.....according to your latest thesis.

Please , no no nope. Fighters are inducted because they are good for ground attack. Ohh! common sir, dont give this argument. Missile and precision guidance munition tech is now so much improved that we can destroy target by launching weapons 10s and 100s km far.

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## SQ8

ANPP said:


> I read this comment many times from you sir. I just want to know if missiles perform that good against fighters than why you, whole world and we are spending billions of dollars on fighters. Enemy just need one missile, costs few lakhs of dollars, to blow up million dollar baby.
> 
> Instead induct few 10s of big or small awacs. Weaponized them. That is actually the cost effective step. Lesser amount of new platform and such platform can petrol a larger area. All those militry guys are fools.....according to your latest thesis.
> 
> Please , no no nope. Fighters are inducted because they are good for ground attack. Ohh! common sir, dont give this argument. Missile and precision guidance munition tech is now so much improved that we can destroy target by launching weapons 10s and 100s km far.



You are thinking incorrectly. Missiles are good against fighters , and even better against large targets. The world spends on fighters due to their capability against each other. 

What you are saying is that because the whole world now has guns, why dont they switch to knives

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## SQ8

knight11 said:


> TVC was a short sighted ?? Are you kidding. TVC is not only allow MKI to quickly point its nose toward enemy, but also removes the AOA limit from the aircraft, that's why EF-2000 is now moving toward TVC nozzle, and is also present in F-22 Raptor.


The MKI cannot exceed its G limits which it achieves anyway with its aerodynamics, it exceeding the AoA creates massive drag which makes it drop out of the sky like a brick.. making it an easy kill for even a F-4 phantom. The EF is not going towards TVC for its starting customers but those foolish ones who fell into the lure of TVC.

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## Maarkhoor

anant_s said:


> Flanker on a dance floor
> View attachment 291678
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Oscar @Vauban @Taygibay @PARIKRAMA


Very impressive maneuvers but i don't know why Russia stuck with dog fight doctrine while west moved with BVR tech and designed new jets as per new BVR engagement capabilities. Because of this high maneuverability heavy maintenance required, even it creates lots of trouble in fly by wire system.

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## knight11

Oscar said:


> The MKI cannot exceed its G limits which it achieves anyway with its aerodynamics, it exceeding the AoA creates massive drag which makes it drop out of the sky like a brick.. making it an easy kill for even a F-4 phantom. The EF is not going towards TVC for its starting customers but those foolish ones who fell into the lure of TVC.



FCS won't allow such condition to happen, when it falls like a brick, unless Pilot over authorised it.

Sorry Offtopic Sir but,
*TVC* was actually part of MBBs early design concepts (TKF90) throughout the 70s. That this concept was working has been demonstrated with the X-31 and ITP and MTU started with work on a 3-D TV nozzle as early as 1994. The nozzle was extensively tested on the bench rig and even high altitude chamber. The nozzle was able to deflect 23.5° in any direction at speeds of up to 110°/sec. This was long proposed as a potential feature of Tranche 3 aircraft, but there was no operational requirement besides the customers so that the programme didn't progressed any further. At one point RR was working on a 2-D nozzle as well but abondoned it. In the meantime ITP has continued the work and presented the current concept. The reason why TVC wasn't considered before was mainly on cost/benefit grounds. The new nozzle is optimised for minimum weight penalty and low cost, by using as many parts from the existing nozzle as possible. The advantages might now offset the lowered tradeoffs.

To discuss thrust vectoring, we must first know how non-TVC aircraft behave. Major parameters that impact aircraft’s performance are:


weight
lift, which can be approximated through wing loading
excess thrust, determined by thrust to weight ratio
drag
One of advantages of thrust vectoring is allowing aircraft to enter and recover from a controlled flat spin, yawing aircraft without worrying about rudder, which looses effectiveness at high angles of attack. However, aircraft using close coupled canards instead of thrust vectoring have also demonstrated flat spin recovery capability, example being Saab Gripen. But while thrust vectoring reduces drag during level flight, thus increasing the range, close-coupled canards add drag and decrease lift unless aircraft is turning, thus improving the range.

But to see what impact thrust vectoring has on combat performance, we have to take a look at parameters I have defined above. *Mass* of aircraft determines inertia – thus, heavier the aircraft is, longer it takes to switch from one maneuver to another quickly. This results in slower transients, making it harder for pilot to get inside opponent’s OODA loop – in fact, mass is defined as a quantitative measure of an object’s resistance to acceleration (to clear common mistake in terminology, acceleration can be in any direction – in fact, what is commonly called “deceleration” is mathematically defined as “acceleration”). But to actually turn, aircraft relies on *lift*. Lift is what allows aircraft to remain in the air, and when turning, aircraft uses control surfaces to change direction in which lift is acting, resulting in aircraft turning around imaginary point. It can be approximated by wing loading. But turning leads to increase in angle between air flow around the aircraft and the aircraft itself (this angle is called *Angle of Attack*), which results in increased *drag*. Increasing drag means that aircraft looses energy faster, and once fighter’s level of energy decays below that of his opponent, he is fighting at disadvantage. Loss in energy can be mitigated by *excess thrust*, which can also be used (usually in combination with gravity, aka downwards flight) to recover lost energy. All of this leads to expression “out of ideas, energy and altitude”, which basically means “I’m in trouble and have no way out”. *Nose pointing* allows aircraft to gain a shot at opponent with gun, and was crucial for gaining a shot at opponent with missiles before advent of High Off Bore capability, which shifted requirements more in direction of ability to sustain maneuvers at or near *corner speed* (minimum speed at which aircraft can achieve maximum g loading; it is usually around M 0,6 – 0,9). It must be noted that, while lift and excess thrust of aircraft can be approximated by wing loading and thrust to weight ratio, heavier aircraft will require higher thrust to weight and lift to weight ratios to achieve same turn rates as lighter aircraft.

Thrust vectoring, as its name says, results in shifting of the thrust. Due to modern fighter aircraft’s center of gravity and center of lift never being behind its nozzles, shift in thrust results in aircraft rotating around its center of gravity, resulting in massive increase in Angle of Attack. Thus, comparision non-TVC aircraft turning and TVC-equipped aircraft turning would look like this:





This is result of forces described above acting on aircraft. In this model, assumption is that aircraft can reach angle of attack required for maximum lift both with and without thrust vectoring, which is true for all close-coupled-canard aircraft, but not necessarily for tailed and long-arm canard arrangements.

Thus, forces impacting turn ability of non-TVC and TVC aircraft would look like this:







It can be seen that thrust vectoring increases angle of attack, and thus drag (as entire airframe at high AoA drags far more than just control surfaces plus airframe at far lower AoA), while reducing thrust avaliable to counter the drag – and, in case of very high AoA values, lift avaliable to pull aircraft around. While TVC can improve turn rate even at combat speeds, it happens only if aircraft is unable to achieve angle of attack that is required for maximum lift, one example being F-16, which requires 32 degrees AoA for maximum lift but is restricted to 25,5 degrees by FCS due to departure concerns. Angles of attack in excess of 35 degrees are unsustainable, however, due to massive drag they cause, resulting in very large energy loss, turning fighter into a deadweight in very short order. “Benefit” of extreme AoA values is also not unique to thrust vectoring aircraft: while TVC-equipped X-31 achieved maximum controllable angles of attack of 70 degrees (compare to 60 degrees for another TVC design, F-22), whereas close-coupled-canard delta-wing Rafale and Gripen are able to achieve controllable Angles of Attack that exceed 100 degrees, with Gripen being able to sustain Angle of Attack of 70 – 80 degrees. Further, X-31 without TVC was unable to achieve more than 30 degrees of alpha, even momentarily, whereas without TVC F-22 is limited to 26 degrees, though not due to issues of lift but rather controllability. As such, TVC actually improved instanteneous (and possibly sustained) turn rates of both aircraft by allowing them to reach angle of attack required for maximum lift, which is between 30 and 40 degrees of AoA. Aircraft that use TVC during combat to achieve angles of attack beyond lifting capability of wing actually sink in the air, as opposed to turning, but if they are unable to achieve maximum lift capability without TVC, then TVC does indeed improve their turn capability. Close-coupled canard configuration, on the other hand, drags less in turning than TVC one as it achieves same lift at lower angle of attack, resulting in far lower fuel consumption. This is important as in visual-range fight, most kills have been historically made when one of aircraft fighting ran out of fuel; thus aircraft with less fuel consumption per unit of weight is (assuming similar fuel fraction) more likely to win the fight. Specifically, maximum lift for close-coupled canard is greater than that for just wing at any AoA past 10 degrees AoA; in configuration analyzed in this thesis, lift is greater than baseline value by 3,4% at 10 degrees AoA, 34% at 22 degrees AoA, 9,4% at 34 degrees AoA, 7,2% at 40 degrees AoA and 18,3% at 48 degrees AoA. Thus aircraft does not need to achieve as high AoA for same lift to weight and lift to drag values, consequently allowing pilot a choice (assuming other values are similar) wether to achieve same turn rate as opponent and outlast it due to using up fuel far slower than it is case with fuel-hungry thrust vectoring maneuvers or try to outmaneuver it with higher turn rate.

Neither is main “benefit” of thrust vectoring, post stall maneuverability, anything new. Aside from close-coupled canard designs, which have extensive post-stall maneuverability, Russian Su-27 has demonstrated stall recovery capability and post-stall maneuverability. It is also important to note that John Boyd was able to do Cobra in F-100, and other pilots did it in J-35 Draken. While TVC certainly improves post-stall capability, capability by itself is useless in multi-bogey scenario, as it bleeds energy very fast. As such, thrust vectoring is tactically useless for most fighter aircraft, especially in age of high-off bore missiles, as usage of thrust vectoring would leave then slow-moving aircraft very vulnerable. Further, Cobra – one of main “poster maneuvers” for TVC – is easy to see in advance, and if done, leaves fighter without energy and at opponent’s mercy; so while usage of TVC may surprise pilots that do not know what it allows, it is suicide agains pilots that are aware of it.

TVC does not necessarily increase security either, as resistance to departure and superstall which it provides are inherent advantages of close-coupled canard designs. However, it does allow non-close coupled canard configurations to recover from these conditions.

*Using TVC for maneuvering is beneficial for tailed aircraft, however, at two regimes: at velocities well below corner speed, and during supersonic flight at high altitudes. Simple reason for that is that in these two regimes, flight surfaces are not very effective.* At very low speeds (150 knots – M 0,23 – and below), large control surfaces’ deflections are required for turning due to weak air flow, thus increasing drag – and even when surfaces are fully deflected, aircraft responds comparatively slowly. This also includes takeoff and landing; as result, aircraft with thrust vectoring can take off and land at lower speeds and in shorter distance than same aircraft without thrust vectoring; this capability can be useful if parts of air strip have been bombed (though it is always smarter not to require air strip at all). During supersonic flight, tail finds itself in wake behind the wing, which reduces its effectiveness. Thus thrust vectoring can be used to compensate for this effect. Further, at high altitudes (12 000 to 15 000 meters) aerodynamic control surfaces are less effective, and there is less drag, which means that thrust vectoring provides greater benefits and less penalties. As dogfights happen at altitudes of 1 500 to 10 000 meters, and speeds that start in transonic range, thrust vectoring is obviously not effective for WVR – and, therefore, real world combat.

In level flight, thrust vectoring allows for trimming, thus increasing range due to reduced drag. 3D TVC nozzles can also reduce drag by optimising their shape. Further, thrust vectoring can add STOL capability to otherwise-CTOL aircraft, but it is always better to look at simpler, lighter and cheaper options. If aircraft lacks roll authority, TVC can be used for pitch, freeing up tail control surfaces to improve roll rate – examples of this are F-22 and Eurofighter Typhoon.

TVC (especially of 3D variety) can also provide ability to quickly point nose in a certain direction, but this is only useful in one-on-one gun-only dogfights (which do not happen in real world) as it leaves aircraft with seriously depleted energy and thus vulnerable to opponent’s wingman, and/or its target if attack was not successful. This is especially problematic in age when HOB capability is becoming increasingly common. But even in such unrealistic dogfights, TVC does not garantee victory. In upper set of images, F-22 is seen from Rafale, pulling a turn; OSF is clearly visible, showing that Rafale’s nose is pointed towards the F-22 (allegedly, Rafale won 2 out of 7 engagements; further, while IRST does have high off-bore capability, video camera is fixed):

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## sathya

knight11 said:


> FCS won't allow such condition to happen, when it falls like a brick, unless Pilot over authorised it.
> 
> Sorry Offtopic Sir but,
> *TVC* was actually part of MBBs early design concepts (TKF90) throughout the 70s. That this concept was working has been demonstrated with the X-31 and ITP and MTU started with work on a 3-D TV nozzle as early as 1994. The nozzle was extensively tested on the bench rig and even high altitude chamber. The nozzle was able to deflect 23.5° in any direction at speeds of up to 110°/sec. This was long proposed as a potential feature of Tranche 3 aircraft, but there was no operational requirement besides the customers so that the programme didn't progressed any further. At one point RR was working on a 2-D nozzle as well but abondoned it. In the meantime ITP has continued the work and presented the current concept. The reason why TVC wasn't considered before was mainly on cost/benefit grounds. The new nozzle is optimised for minimum weight penalty and low cost, by using as many parts from the existing nozzle as possible. The advantages might now offset the lowered tradeoffs.
> 
> To discuss thrust vectoring, we must first know how non-TVC aircraft behave. Major parameters that impact aircraft’s performance are:
> 
> 
> weight
> lift, which can be approximated through wing loading
> excess thrust, determined by thrust to weight ratio
> drag
> One of advantages of thrust vectoring is allowing aircraft to enter and recover from a controlled flat spin, yawing aircraft without worrying about rudder, which looses effectiveness at high angles of attack. However, aircraft using close coupled canards instead of thrust vectoring have also demonstrated flat spin recovery capability, example being Saab Gripen. But while thrust vectoring reduces drag during level flight, thus increasing the range, close-coupled canards add drag and decrease lift unless aircraft is turning, thus improving the range.
> 
> But to see what impact thrust vectoring has on combat performance, we have to take a look at parameters I have defined above. *Mass* of aircraft determines inertia – thus, heavier the aircraft is, longer it takes to switch from one maneuver to another quickly. This results in slower transients, making it harder for pilot to get inside opponent’s OODA loop – in fact, mass is defined as a quantitative measure of an object’s resistance to acceleration (to clear common mistake in terminology, acceleration can be in any direction – in fact, what is commonly called “deceleration” is mathematically defined as “acceleration”). But to actually turn, aircraft relies on *lift*. Lift is what allows aircraft to remain in the air, and when turning, aircraft uses control surfaces to change direction in which lift is acting, resulting in aircraft turning around imaginary point. It can be approximated by wing loading. But turning leads to increase in angle between air flow around the aircraft and the aircraft itself (this angle is called *Angle of Attack*), which results in increased *drag*. Increasing drag means that aircraft looses energy faster, and once fighter’s level of energy decays below that of his opponent, he is fighting at disadvantage. Loss in energy can be mitigated by *excess thrust*, which can also be used (usually in combination with gravity, aka downwards flight) to recover lost energy. All of this leads to expression “out of ideas, energy and altitude”, which basically means “I’m in trouble and have no way out”. *Nose pointing* allows aircraft to gain a shot at opponent with gun, and was crucial for gaining a shot at opponent with missiles before advent of High Off Bore capability, which shifted requirements more in direction of ability to sustain maneuvers at or near *corner speed* (minimum speed at which aircraft can achieve maximum g loading; it is usually around M 0,6 – 0,9). It must be noted that, while lift and excess thrust of aircraft can be approximated by wing loading and thrust to weight ratio, heavier aircraft will require higher thrust to weight and lift to weight ratios to achieve same turn rates as lighter aircraft.
> 
> Thrust vectoring, as its name says, results in shifting of the thrust. Due to modern fighter aircraft’s center of gravity and center of lift never being behind its nozzles, shift in thrust results in aircraft rotating around its center of gravity, resulting in massive increase in Angle of Attack. Thus, comparision non-TVC aircraft turning and TVC-equipped aircraft turning would look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is result of forces described above acting on aircraft. In this model, assumption is that aircraft can reach angle of attack required for maximum lift both with and without thrust vectoring, which is true for all close-coupled-canard aircraft, but not necessarily for tailed and long-arm canard arrangements.
> 
> Thus, forces impacting turn ability of non-TVC and TVC aircraft would look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It can be seen that thrust vectoring increases angle of attack, and thus drag (as entire airframe at high AoA drags far more than just control surfaces plus airframe at far lower AoA), while reducing thrust avaliable to counter the drag – and, in case of very high AoA values, lift avaliable to pull aircraft around. While TVC can improve turn rate even at combat speeds, it happens only if aircraft is unable to achieve angle of attack that is required for maximum lift, one example being F-16, which requires 32 degrees AoA for maximum lift but is restricted to 25,5 degrees by FCS due to departure concerns. Angles of attack in excess of 35 degrees are unsustainable, however, due to massive drag they cause, resulting in very large energy loss, turning fighter into a deadweight in very short order. “Benefit” of extreme AoA values is also not unique to thrust vectoring aircraft: while TVC-equipped X-31 achieved maximum controllable angles of attack of 70 degrees (compare to 60 degrees for another TVC design, F-22), whereas close-coupled-canard delta-wing Rafale and Gripen are able to achieve controllable Angles of Attack that exceed 100 degrees, with Gripen being able to sustain Angle of Attack of 70 – 80 degrees. Further, X-31 without TVC was unable to achieve more than 30 degrees of alpha, even momentarily, whereas without TVC F-22 is limited to 26 degrees, though not due to issues of lift but rather controllability. As such, TVC actually improved instanteneous (and possibly sustained) turn rates of both aircraft by allowing them to reach angle of attack required for maximum lift, which is between 30 and 40 degrees of AoA. Aircraft that use TVC during combat to achieve angles of attack beyond lifting capability of wing actually sink in the air, as opposed to turning, but if they are unable to achieve maximum lift capability without TVC, then TVC does indeed improve their turn capability. Close-coupled canard configuration, on the other hand, drags less in turning than TVC one as it achieves same lift at lower angle of attack, resulting in far lower fuel consumption. This is important as in visual-range fight, most kills have been historically made when one of aircraft fighting ran out of fuel; thus aircraft with less fuel consumption per unit of weight is (assuming similar fuel fraction) more likely to win the fight. Specifically, maximum lift for close-coupled canard is greater than that for just wing at any AoA past 10 degrees AoA; in configuration analyzed in this thesis, lift is greater than baseline value by 3,4% at 10 degrees AoA, 34% at 22 degrees AoA, 9,4% at 34 degrees AoA, 7,2% at 40 degrees AoA and 18,3% at 48 degrees AoA. Thus aircraft does not need to achieve as high AoA for same lift to weight and lift to drag values, consequently allowing pilot a choice (assuming other values are similar) wether to achieve same turn rate as opponent and outlast it due to using up fuel far slower than it is case with fuel-hungry thrust vectoring maneuvers or try to outmaneuver it with higher turn rate.
> 
> Neither is main “benefit” of thrust vectoring, post stall maneuverability, anything new. Aside from close-coupled canard designs, which have extensive post-stall maneuverability, Russian Su-27 has demonstrated stall recovery capability and post-stall maneuverability. It is also important to note that John Boyd was able to do Cobra in F-100, and other pilots did it in J-35 Draken. While TVC certainly improves post-stall capability, capability by itself is useless in multi-bogey scenario, as it bleeds energy very fast. As such, thrust vectoring is tactically useless for most fighter aircraft, especially in age of high-off bore missiles, as usage of thrust vectoring would leave then slow-moving aircraft very vulnerable. Further, Cobra – one of main “poster maneuvers” for TVC – is easy to see in advance, and if done, leaves fighter without energy and at opponent’s mercy; so while usage of TVC may surprise pilots that do not know what it allows, it is suicide agains pilots that are aware of it.
> 
> TVC does not necessarily increase security either, as resistance to departure and superstall which it provides are inherent advantages of close-coupled canard designs. However, it does allow non-close coupled canard configurations to recover from these conditions.
> 
> *Using TVC for maneuvering is beneficial for tailed aircraft, however, at two regimes: at velocities well below corner speed, and during supersonic flight at high altitudes. Simple reason for that is that in these two regimes, flight surfaces are not very effective.* At very low speeds (150 knots – M 0,23 – and below), large control surfaces’ deflections are required for turning due to weak air flow, thus increasing drag – and even when surfaces are fully deflected, aircraft responds comparatively slowly. This also includes takeoff and landing; as result, aircraft with thrust vectoring can take off and land at lower speeds and in shorter distance than same aircraft without thrust vectoring; this capability can be useful if parts of air strip have been bombed (though it is always smarter not to require air strip at all). During supersonic flight, tail finds itself in wake behind the wing, which reduces its effectiveness. Thus thrust vectoring can be used to compensate for this effect. Further, at high altitudes (12 000 to 15 000 meters) aerodynamic control surfaces are less effective, and there is less drag, which means that thrust vectoring provides greater benefits and less penalties. As dogfights happen at altitudes of 1 500 to 10 000 meters, and speeds that start in transonic range, thrust vectoring is obviously not effective for WVR – and, therefore, real world combat.
> 
> In level flight, thrust vectoring allows for trimming, thus increasing range due to reduced drag. 3D TVC nozzles can also reduce drag by optimising their shape. Further, thrust vectoring can add STOL capability to otherwise-CTOL aircraft, but it is always better to look at simpler, lighter and cheaper options. If aircraft lacks roll authority, TVC can be used for pitch, freeing up tail control surfaces to improve roll rate – examples of this are F-22 and Eurofighter Typhoon.
> 
> TVC (especially of 3D variety) can also provide ability to quickly point nose in a certain direction, but this is only useful in one-on-one gun-only dogfights (which do not happen in real world) as it leaves aircraft with seriously depleted energy and thus vulnerable to opponent’s wingman, and/or its target if attack was not successful. This is especially problematic in age when HOB capability is becoming increasingly common. But even in such unrealistic dogfights, TVC does not garantee victory. In upper set of images, F-22 is seen from Rafale, pulling a turn; OSF is clearly visible, showing that Rafale’s nose is pointed towards the F-22 (allegedly, Rafale won 2 out of 7 engagements; further, while IRST does have high off-bore capability, video camera is fixed):




I am guessing its a very good technical explanation. 

I will try to divide and read part by part daily..

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## SQ8

knight11 said:


> TVC (especially of 3D variety) can also provide ability to quickly point nose in a certain direction, but this is only useful in one-on-one gun-only dogfights (which do not happen in real world) as it leaves aircraft with seriously depleted energy and thus vulnerable to opponent’s wingman, and/or its target if attack was not successful. This is especially problematic in age when HOB capability is becoming increasingly common. But even in such unrealistic dogfights, TVC does not garantee victory.:



Ill ignore the rest of the copy paste because its repeating something that has been copied and pasted here and everywhere for ages before you joined. 

That is the only relevant bit to why the IAF bought into the TVC hype and is now paying for a capability that is useless to it in most cases.


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## airmarshal

Which radar does the current Su-30MKI has? Its specs?


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## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> This was misreported, the two stories (SFC's request and Brahmos launch capability being added to MKIs) were put together when they are entirely unlinked.
> 
> As @PARIKRAMA has stated, the MKI's electronics aren't hardened for N-delivery nor are they certified for low level deep penetraton strike missions as would be required for the N-delivery role


both, please elaborate why would you need low level penetration for nuclear delivery? This low level penetration is highly overrated btw. as long as you have a some compressed air and a ejector rack like an AKU-58AE, you should be fine. There is a good reason why Mig27 dareIII specifically moved away from low level flight patterns.
As far a electronics not hardened, i don't buy that argument at all. Delivery is delivery you can stuff anything in the payload from nukes to cows...
VSHORADS and Shoulder fires along with ground array radar has rendered this low level flight patterns absolutely suicidal. You want air delivered nukes, you need to rely on strike packages, or CM/BM solution.
The idea of sneaking in a nuke is not at all sensible.

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## T-72M1

airmarshal said:


> Which radar does the current Su-30MKI has? Its specs?


Flanker Radars in Beyond Visual Range Air Combat

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## kaykay

airmarshal said:


> Which radar does the current Su-30MKI has? Its specs?


All about current Su-30MKIs radar...
350km detection range, 200 km tracking range, 150-160 km tracking for a F-16....can act as mini-awacs etc etc

Mini AWACS : The Powerful "N011M" Bars Hybrid Radar System ( Su 30 MKI )

MKI radar comparision compared to other popular radars on other fighters.

http://www.ausairpower.net/XIMG/FA-22A-Radar-2005-APA.png

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## knight11

Oscar said:


> everywhere for ages before you joined.



Are you sure about that ??



Oscar said:


> That is the only relevant bit to why the IAF bought into the TVC hype and is now paying for a capability that is useless to it in most cases.



Ok leave the TVC hype or necessory, could you comment on the IAF love of the tantem seat configuration, because they also want that in FGFA.


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## randomradio

It's too early to talk about configuration when the discussions are still ongoing.


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## SQ8

knight11 said:


> Are you sure about that ??
> 
> 
> 
> Ok leave the TVC hype or necessory, could you comment on the IAF love of the tantem seat configuration, because they also want that in FGFA.


Quite sure, have too many copy pastes for that.

The tandem seat config is pretty useful to alleviate pilot loads especially if you are dealing with the prospect of long range flying or an aircraft that does not have an intuitive user interface that allows the pilot to carry out multiple tasks. 

The USN tried keeping the F/A-18 F as a replacement for its F-14's because they wanted a their radar intercept officer configuration so they could keep their guys employed. 
But as such, most air forces with the prospect of needing multirole combat and especially air combat, with today's advanced interfaces have opted for single seat types. 
Air forces with much more developed modern combat doctrines than those like the IAF or even China.


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## randomradio

Oscar said:


> Quite sure, have too many copy pastes for that.
> 
> The tandem seat config is pretty useful to alleviate pilot loads especially if you are dealing with the prospect of long range flying or an aircraft that does not have an intuitive user interface that allows the pilot to carry out multiple tasks.
> 
> The USN tried keeping the F/A-18 F as a replacement for its F-14's because they wanted a their radar intercept officer configuration so they could keep their guys employed.
> But as such, most air forces with the prospect of needing multirole combat and especially air combat, with today's advanced interfaces have opted for single seat types.
> Air forces with much more developed modern combat doctrines than those like the IAF or even China.



The thing with the tandem seat was the case earlier, especially with the MKI. 

Now, it's much more than that. IAF wants a two seat FGFA for two reasons. One is battlespace management, and two, they need a second pilot to control swarms of unmanned jets.

Think about 4 FGFAs with 4 extra pilots who control a swarm of strike and recce drones along with unmanned FGFAs. The manned FGFAs provide all sorts of support to their unmanned counterparts, while allowing them to take high risk maneuvers.



Oscar said:


> That is the only relevant bit to why the IAF bought into the TVC hype and is now paying for a capability that is useless to it in most cases.



I don't know why you say that. Both FGFA and AMCA will have TVC. Rafale's future with TVC is yet unknown because they are introducing a new 8.5 tons engine in a few years, but TVC for the Rafale is also bound to happen.

Apart from obvious maneuverability advantage, the TVC also helps reduce fuel burn and reduce drag at supersonic speeds. The advantages are enough to ensure TVC is to stay for a long time.



airmarshal said:


> Which radar does the current Su-30MKI has? Its specs?





kaykay said:


> All about current Su-30MKIs radar...
> 350km detection range, 200 km tracking range, 150-160 km tracking for a F-16....can act as mini-awacs etc etc
> 
> Mini AWACS : The Powerful "N011M" Bars Hybrid Radar System ( Su 30 MKI )
> 
> MKI radar comparision compared to other popular radars on other fighters.
> 
> http://www.ausairpower.net/XIMG/FA-22A-Radar-2005-APA.png



This configuration is obsolete. These figures are over 15 years old. The Bars has been heavily upgraded since then. The Russians have been trying to convince the IAF to get the Irbis-E upgrade for the Bars for some time now as the next set of upgrades. This is independent from the Super Sukhoi program.

The IAF has not released the ranges for the new configuration, but it's very high.

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## nana41

mkb95 said:


> yep


It's Mirage 2000 of IAF?.


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## #hydra#

I heard earlier that present mki doesn't have any MAWS,is it true?somebody pls answer me.


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## Manindra

#hydra# said:


> I heard earlier that present mki doesn't have any MAWS,is it true?somebody pls answer me.


Yes, it would be fitted in Super Sukhoi Program

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## Major Shaitan Singh

There are four primary and distinct types of radar carried by Flankers, each with distinct subtypes or block upgrade levels. In regional terms, variants of the baseline N001 series are most commonly seen, with the vastly more capable N011M BARS phased array now also well established in the region.

The Russian drive to improve supersonic persistence in the Flanker via supercruise class engines is clearly in a large part driven by this reality. In the bluntest of terms, throwing a spear from the top of a hill is always easier than throwing one uphill. An R-27EA with a range cited at ~70 nautical miles becomes a ~100 nautical mile class missile if launched supersonic from a superior altitude.

Electronic warfare between opponents remains a key consideration in long range missile combat. While high power aperture radars provide good burnthrough performance, at extreme ranges well in excess of 50 nautical miles burnthrough is unlikely to be a practical proposition. This is because the power ratings of conventional defensive jamming systems will be sized to defeat surface based engagement radars with power aperture performance well in excess of any fighter radar. A technique for suppressing a jamming source that is available to users of AESAs and hybrid ESAs is to put sharp nulls into the antenna mainlobe dynamically.

The use of the ESA or AESA to jam an opponent's radar is a proposition only where the opponent lacks the frequency agility in the their radar to evade jamming, and lacks an X-band anti-radiation missile which would benefit from the stable emissions produced by a jamming mode.

What does become a proposition for both sides is jamming of the missile midcourse datalink uplink channel to deny midcourse flight position updates after a missile launch. Historically the jamming of missile uplinks has been considered difficult and demanding of high power levels. This is because missile datalink antennas point in the direction of the launching aircraft, which means that what little jamming power can couple into the antenna must be carried by surface travelling waves along the missile airframe. With a high power aperture ESA or AESA such uplink jamming becomes feasible. However, both sides also have the option of coating their missiles with X-band lossy materials, which will diminish the coupling effect.

The reality for better or worse is that possessing radar detection and tracking range performance well in excess of missile kinematic range performance is unlikely to provide any benefit beyond very early warning of an inbound threat, giving the pilot the option of reversing and getting away, provided the opponent's radar and radio frequency surveillance systems are not good enough to detect the longer ranging radar. Increased fighter power aperture performance may increase its target detection footprint, but it also increases the opponent's passive detection footprint for the radar - the inverse square law of passive detection produces stronger effect than the inverse fourth power law of radar detection.

*Tikhomirov NIIP N011M BARS*

NIIP N011M BARS Prototype.

The BARS is the most advanced radar developed by Russian industry during the 1990s. It is unusual in being designed with a hybrid array arrangement, the receive path using very similar technology to US and EU AESAs, with similar sensitivity and sidelobe performance, but using a Travelling Wave Tube and backplane waveguide feed for the transmit direction, a technology closest to the B-1B and early Rafale EA radars. As such the BARS is a transitional design sitting in between Passive ESAs (PESA) and contemporary AESAs. There is no doubt this design strategy reflected the unavailability to Russian designers of the Gallium Arsenide power transistors used in Western AESAs.

The baseline N011M radar uses a vertically polarised 0.9 metre diameter aperture hybrid phased array, with individual per element receive path low noise amplifiers delivering a noise figure cited at 3 dB, similar to an AESA. The antenna is constructed using phase shifter and receiver 'stick' modules, a similar technology to early US AESAs.

Three receiver channels are used, one presumably for sidelobe blanking and ECCM. The EGSP-6A transmitter uses a single Chelnok Travelling Wave Tube, available in variants with peak power ratings between 4 and 7 kiloWatts, and CW illumination at 1 kW. Cited detection range for a closing target (High PRF) is up to 76 NMI, for a receding target up to 50 NMI. The phased array can electronically steer the mainlobe through +/-70 degrees in azimuth and +/-40 degrees in elevation. The whole array can be further steered mechanically. Polarisation can be switched by 90 degrees for surface search modes.

The BARS remains in production for the Indian and Malaysian Irkut built Su-30MKI/MKM variants. The radar is available with a range of TWT power ratings, this being the source of considerable confusion to observers who have not tracked this program since its inception. The result is a wide range of performance figures depending on the resulting Power Aperture Product. That the antenna has good power handling capability is evident in its adaptation for the Irbis E design.

Given the similarity between the Irbis E and BARS, existing BARS operators will over time effect block upgrades to convert their BARS inventories into the Irbis E configuration.

Q1. WHY N-011M BARS RADAR USED IN Su-30MKI CONSIDERED TO BE DIFFERENT FROM OTHER PESA SYSTEM??

ANS- It is developed by Tikhomirov, a Passive Electrical Scanned Array (PESA) radar, thats what generally said. But looking at its scanning pattern I’ll say it’s more of a hybrid system that integrates the advantages of Mechanically Scanned Array and PESA system. Unlike other PESA system it doesn’t use same receiver amplifier for each TRM module, rather it has separate system like AESA. But in case of signal transmitting it uses single Oscillator of fixed freq…So you can say it’s a transition from common PESA system to AESA system.

Q2. IS IT A X-BAND OR L-BAND SYSTEM ??

ANS-Yes it is a X-band radar of 8-12GHz freq. As i already told you, it’s a hybrid system, so It incorporates the L-band, 1-2GHz IFF (Identification of Friend-or-Foe) system to improve the performance, and also an
N011-0M mechanically steered antenna system.

Q3. ANYTHING ABOUT POWER O/P, FREQ. BAND, SCANCOVERAGE ??

ANS- It can scan upto +/-70 degree in azimuth and +/- 45 degree in vertical axis, also it can be mechanically steered to +/-55 degree off bore-sight, thus giving the pilot a full +/-100 degree off bore-sight forward hemispherical coverage with 3dB noise figure same as an AESAR. It has 3 Indian made Ts-200 processor of 28GHZ speed with digital processing system and can perform 70million operation per second. Both static and flash memory are of 16MB size. The average power o/p each channel receiver is 1.2kw and 1kw illuminator for radar homing missile…so sum of all 3 channel receiver and target designator has power o/p of 4-5 kw.

Q4. GREAT AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY MULTI-MODE RADAR AND HEY YOU’VE NOT MENTIONED THE RANGE EITHER ??

ANS- Air-Air mode: 15 tracked and 4 engaged simultaneously, 400Km search range, 200km track range, 60km rear tracking. Also in Air-Air mode it can do a Raid assesment and NTCR.
Air-Ground/Maritime strike: 15 tracked, 2 engaged, for tanks it
has detection range of 60km and for Naval ships or destroyers 90-120km. Features include Synthetic Aperture Radar Imaging(SAR), Doppler beam sharpening, real beam mapping and Ground/Maritime Moving Target Indicator(GMTI/MMTI). So it is perfectly suited for swing-role missions where you have no confirmation over the threats either they are ground threats or enemy air defence fighter. You can switch to any mode any time according to your mission requirements. And thats what make it Multi-mode system.

Q.5 Tell me about the Cope-India war game, How did MKI perform against USAF’s F-16 Fighting Falcon and F-15 Strike Eagles ?? And also Indradhanush exercise with RAF.

ANS- In Cope-India war game with USAF and Indradhanus Exercise with RAF… IAF has instructed their pilots not to use the N-011M above training mode! Also MKIs lack an AWACS in their formation. So what happened
actually is every time they got
something in their radar…they
didn’t know it was a friendly or
Threat…because IFF system isn’t
online.(training mode) and before they could know it was a threat or friendly…it was Fox 2…Game over!!! But in dog fight they outperform the USAF F-16s and F-15s. I may say they beat the crap out of F-16s and F-15s. But The RAF Typhoon gives MKI a good run for its money.

Q.6 Ok…enough with these number games, tell me in simple english what’s N011M BARS PANTHER RADAR SYSTEM ??

ANS- Ok…in simple english…no tech words…”YOU TAKE THE ICINGS FROM VARIOUS DELICIOUS PUDDINGS AND MAKE YOUR OWN CAKE WITH THOSE ICE TOPPING”…voila you get a N011M…


*Super MKI*

Russian industry crossed an important milestone with the 2007 unveiling of Phazotron's Zhuk AE AESA radar for the MiG-35. In August, 2009, Tikhomirov NIIP were cleared to publicly display the new AESA developed for the PAK-FA, and also a clear candidate for Flanker retrofits.

Until recently, the principal impediment to the introduction of AESAs has been the unavailability of good Gallium Arsenide technology power transistors for use in AESA Transmit Receive modules. While global commercial GaAs production is of the order of 100 times greater in volume compared to military production in the West, there has been only modest non-military demand for this class of transistor to date. That is changing now with the US breakthrough earlier this decade in Gallium Nitride transistors, now appearing in second generation US AESAs, as these have been identified as an enabling technology for WiMax broadband networking. 

As result the coming decade will see such devices mass produced for commercial users, making their export to Russian defence industry impossible to control. We are already observing Japanese manufacturers producing GaN transistors rated at 50 Watts in the X-band. The commodification of high performance 32-bit and 64-bit microprocessor chips is the applicable case study, since these are now appearing in a wide range of Russian military equipment designs.

The principal challenges Western designers have faced in AESAs have fallen into both antenna design, and integration. AESAs typically use A-class amplifiers to provide bandwidth and frequency agility, and the high linearity and low distortion required for sophisticated waveforms. The result is considerable power dissipation in the antenna, which is typically dealt with by liquid cooling using Poly-Alpha-Olefin (PAO) coolant. Some designs, such as the F-22A and F-16/B60, dump heat into the aircraft's fuel as a thermal buffer, and then dissipate it. Some designs will directly dump the heat into a heat exchanger.

Integration of an AESA into the Flanker airframe will not present difficulties, as there is considerable internal volume, large internal fuel capacity with potentially large cooling capacity, and electrical power to spare with the newer engine designs. 

The large 0.9-1.1 metre diameter aperture provided by the nose and radome design will be especially attractive to an AESA designer. This aperture size permits around twice as many AESA modules of similar size to most current Western designs, apart from the F-22A Raptor APG-77 and F-15C APG-63(V)3/4, to be packed into the antenna. 

The implications of this are sobering, insofar as with modules rated at half the peak power of the current state-of-the-art, such a radar could provide about the same peak power rating as current top end US AESAs. The Power Aperture Product would thus be higher due to the aperture area being so much larger. With COTS derived modules of much higher peak power rating than current US military GaN HEMT technology, a future Flanker AESA could have a very much higher Power Aperture Product figure, with significant counter-stealth potential.

In 2009 there were two principal candidate AESAs for installation in new build Flankers, or retrofit into existing service Flankers. These radars are NIIR Phazotron's intended Zhuk-AS/ASE, scaled up from the MiG-35 Zhuk AE AESA, and a derivative of Tikhomirov NIIP's new PAK-FA AESA, displayed publicly at MAKS 2009.

Both radar designs are based on the quad channel TR module technology first disclosed during the public release of the Zhuk AE. These X-band modules are now being mass produced on an automated line by NPP Istok, who are also planning S-band module production. Mostly Russian produced GaAs components are employed. Cited capacity is sufficient for 50 AESA radars annually.

Other than a stated intent by NIIR Phazotron to scale up the Zhuk AE, there are no technical details of this design available at this time. In a sense it is an analogue of the Raytheon scaling of the APG-79 AESA for the APG-63(V)3/4 upgrade (refer below).





Estimated detection range chart for variants of a Flanker sized AESA equipped with a range of Transmit Receive Module power ratings per channel. The detection range performance of the 10 and 12 Watt module equipped AESA is similar to the Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis-E hybrid ESA in the Su-35S, and much superior to the N011M BARS. The performance of AESA if equipped with modules rated above 15 Watts is superior to the Irbis E. Receiver noise figure and effective aperture area are assumed to be similar. N011M performance is based on parametric data and is better than NIIP cited figures (Author, 2008).

Modelling performed by APA in 2008, making some reasonable assumptions, such as an element count of ~1600 for the antenna provides a good baseline for a Zhuk AS/ASE as well as the PAK-FA AESA. This is detailed under the Zhuk AS/ASE analysis of 2008.






Enhanced stills from a Russian television broadcast reporting the Tikhomirov NIIP PAK-FA AESA design. Static display images of the antenna have a dielectric impedance matching screen installed, which obscures the actual TR module apertures (Vesti - Moskva via Youtube).






NIIP AESA on display at MAKS 2009 (© 2009, Miroslav Gyűrösi).

The Tikhomirov NIIP AESA design for the PAK-FA is better understood. The antenna aperture is very similar in size, if not identical, to the aperture of the Irbis E. The design is intended for fixed low signature tilted installation, rather than gimballed installation, and auxiliary cheek arrays are planned for. The design is claimed to have been integrated with an existing BARS/Irbis radar for testing and design validation purposes.

Public statements made in Russia claim 1,500 TR module elements. Counting exposed radiating elements on video stills of the antenna indicates an estimated 1,524 TR channels, with a tolerance of several percent. This is within 5% of the 2008 APA model for a Flanker AESA.

NIIP have publicly cited detection range performance of 350 to 400 km (190 to 215 NMI), which assuming a Russian industry standard 2.5m2 target, is consistent with the 2008 APA model for a radar using ~10W rated TR modules, which in turn is the power rating for the modules used in the Zhuk AE prototypes. This puts the nett peak power at ~15 kiloWatts, slightly below the Irbis E, but even a very modest 25% increase in TR module output rating would overcome this.

There are distinct differences between the AESA displayed by NIIP for Vesti, which has less depth and uses circular radiators, and the examples displayed at MAKS 2009 and depicted on brochures, which are constructed using TR module sticks and are several inches deeper.

To drive down the cost of this AESA, the best strategy available to the Russians is the export of AESA upgrades to the global community of Flanker users over the coming decade, emulating the US approach with this technology. Tikhomirov NIIP brochures state that the existing AESA would be the basis of AESA upgrade designs for the Su-27/30/35 Flankers.

Recent reports from India suggest that 100 Su-30MKI Flanker H may be retrofitted with AESA upgrades to their N011M BARS radars post 2015. 

It is now inevitable that AESAs will appear on Flankers, the only uncertainties at this stage will be in the number of aircraft retrofitted, the clientele, and exact timelines and performance specifications of these radars.






Instrumented AESA prototype (Tikhomirov NIIP).











AESA antenna mounting. This example is constructed using TR module sticks, using an arrangement similar to the BARS and Irbis E, including the slot radiators. This brochure image may be of a developmental antenna, as the example presented in the Vesti video uses the same style of circular dielectric radiator as the competing Zhuk AE/ASE series (Tikhomirov NIIP).






TR Module stick. Of particular interest is that the feed networks are symmetrically split, permitting this design to produce dual plane monopulse sum and difference outputs from a stack of such sticks (Tikhomirov NIIP).

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## desimorty

> It's Mirage 2000 of IAF?.


Its the Tejas. The mirage 2000 has lower wings where as the Tejas as wings mounted higher on the body.


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## SQ8

Khemkharan said:


> You can close your ears and go la-la-la but doesn't change facts or physics. The only relevant bit is that, as explained very well here is why not a single paf (non-tvc) fighter stands a chance against the su-30 in wvr, to a great degree because of bvr. We are talking bekaa Valley, f-15 versus mig-21 levels of disparity here.
> 
> There was a Greek blogger who explained how the m2k kills the f-16 in the first turn, every single time. Different technique, similar principle but turned up to another level altogether with the best dogfighter in Asia, the su-30 mki.
> 
> Of course, to begin with its very unlikely that would be needed considering none of its south Asian opponents to would survive bvr against the su-30mki to begin with


 Facts is a term often used by people who have nothing else to prove their claim. It is a fact that eating beef is consdiered offensive in India but Kerala has beef fests.


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## Stephen Cohen

Oscar said:


> Facts is a term often used by people who have nothing else to prove their claim. It is a fact that eating beef is consdiered offensive in India but Kerala has beef fests.



Comparing the capability of SU 30 MKI with beef fests in Kerala is like
equating a technical matter with a Legal matter

The sale and consumption of beef is regulated by each state Government
as per their own laws

A few states do allow Beef consumption legally

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## Local_Legend

Haven't heard any news about Super Sukhoi from a long time ... any of you , friends ???


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## Sri

Local_Legend said:


> Nahee ... Aise bolkar hamare dil nahi tod sakte hai app
> 
> ( But thanks for reminding the story . It refreshed lots of childhood memories !)


Last I heard was - IAF was not impressed with the Aesa option given for the upgrade. Not sure far this is true. May be IAF is waiting for T-50 to get operational and ask for this radar.

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## randomradio

Sri said:


> Last I heard was - IAF was not impressed with the Aesa option given for the upgrade. Not sure far this is true. May be IAF is waiting for T-50 to get operational and ask for this radar.



There was no such problem. And Super Sukhoi will have PAK FA technologies.

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## Sri

randomradio said:


> There was no such problem. And Super Sukhoi will have PAK FA technologies.


OK, My understanding was all other components like engine, self protection suite etc are available for upgrade but only radar was the missing piece. I also heard that IAF was looking at other options for radar ( may be 2052 etc). So as per your understanding whats stopping this deal to move forward. are they waiting for all the MKIs to be manufatured before thinking of upgrade?
tx

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## Local_Legend

Russia offered AESA in MIG 35 as AESA was a must have for every MMRCA contender . They are sill in testing stage only . We have to wait more . The pace of ground based radar development in Russia is not happening with Fighter AESA .

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## randomradio

Sri said:


> OK, My understanding was all other components like engine, self protection suite etc are available for upgrade but only radar was the missing piece. I also heard that IAF was looking at other options for radar ( may be 2052 etc).





Local_Legend said:


> Russia offered AESA in MIG 35 as AESA was a must have for every MMRCA contender . They are sill in testing stage only . We have to wait more . The pace of ground based radar development in Russia is not happening with Fighter AESA .



NIIP Tikhomirov will supply the MKI's radar. The Mig-35 radar from Phazatron was speculation. And the MKI won't carry a radar from a different country. Radar was never the missing piece, but the radar technology that will be used is still in doubt, whether we will use the first generation AESA that will come with PAK FA Stage 1 or the second generation radar that will come with PAK FA Stage 2.

The second generation radar is many, many times superior to the first generation. The first gen is a simple radar that you can find in other aircraft today, including the F-22/35, Rafale etc. The second generation radar will be able to map an enemy pilot's face from 500Km away. It can see through the F-22's body and look at the type of weapons it is carrying, it can see through buildings and count the number of people inside it etc.

However what is in question is the type of engine upgrade. We don't know if it will use the same engines, same engines with uprated thrust (most likely) or a brand new engine like the 117S.



> So as per your understanding whats stopping this deal to move forward. are they waiting for all the MKIs to be manufatured before thinking of upgrade?
> tx



The deal is under negotiations stage. They were still deciding the final configuration as of last year. First flight of the Super Sukhoi is expected in 2020.

The upgrade will be in phases. 50 aircraft will be upgraded in the first phase. I suppose new technologies will be added as the upgrades continue. So the Super MKI will probably see the first and second generation radars eventually.

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## GURU DUTT

Sri said:


> Last I heard was - IAF was not impressed with the Aesa option given for the upgrade. Not sure far this is true. May be IAF is waiting for T-50 to get operational and ask for this radar.


actually thing is there are three groups in IAF or say three voices /view points in IAF on the issue of upgrades/MLU of Su-30 MKI 

1.first group wants 5th gen russian radar and engine + some french and israeli avionics and weapons 

2.wants all Israeli package (El2052+AESA based combined EW-ECM suite like Spectra)+ russian engine

3.wants an Indian AESA radar with some Israeli and French package + russian engine

while the MOD wants "the best" of all the above three but at a "better price" than what they are currently offerred 

and thats why i said beerbal ki khichrri and this attitude is when they(beurocrats) know there is no possibillty of "chai pani" 



randomradio said:


> The second generation radar is many, many times superior to the first generation. The first gen is a simple radar that you can find in other aircraft today, including the F-22/35, Rafale etc. The second generation radar will be able to map an enemy pilot's face from 500Km away. It can see through the F-22's body and look at the type of weapons it is carrying, it can see through buildings and count the number of people inside it etc.
> .



bhai ji ye kuch jyada hi hogaya

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## guest11

Losing sleep over Super Sukhoi is unnecessary. MLU won't come till 2020. Plenty of options will be available by then including plethora of tech developed for PAKFA.

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## randomradio

GURU DUTT said:


> bhai ji ye kuch jyada hi hogaya



It's a brand new radar technology. It will replace current radar with an electronic eye that acts like a human eye and will have x-ray vision also. Basically Superman's eyes. Oh, did I mention it will be able to shoot down aircraft and missiles also? I'm not joking.

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## GURU DUTT

randomradio said:


> It's a brand new radar technology. It will replace current radar with an electronic eye that acts like a human eye and will have x-ray vision also. Basically Superman's eyes. Oh, did I mention it will be able to shoot down aircraft and missiles also? I'm not joking.


He he he Bhai ji you are funny  

but even if there is any such tech be rest assured russians are not going to sell it to us and they will only be ready to sell us there gen1 AESA as we are not Pakistan whome russians are going to sell there latest weapons

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## randomradio

GURU DUTT said:


> He he he Bhai ji you are funny
> 
> but even if there is any such tech be rest assured russians are not going to sell it to us and they will only be ready to sell us there gen1 AESA as we are not Pakistan whome russians are going to sell there latest weapons



This radar is available to India.


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## guest11

GURU DUTT said:


> bhai ji ye kuch jyada hi hogaya





randomradio said:


> It's a brand new radar technology. It will replace current radar with an electronic eye that acts like a human eye and will have x-ray vision also. Basically Superman's eyes. Oh, did I mention it will be able to shoot down aircraft and missiles also? I'm not joking.




http://rbth.com/defence/2016/01/21/...ighter-can-detect-any-stealth-aircraft_561275

https://www.rt.com/news/321712-radio-photonic-radar-russia/

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## randomradio

@Arsalan

Go through this thread.
https://defence.pk/threads/analysis...radar-detection-of-aircraft-at-500-km.415852/

And these articles.


guest11 said:


> http://rbth.com/defence/2016/01/21/...ighter-can-detect-any-stealth-aircraft_561275
> 
> https://www.rt.com/news/321712-radio-photonic-radar-russia/

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## Arsalan

randomradio said:


> The second generation radar is many, many times superior to the first generation. The first gen is a simple radar that you can find in other aircraft today, including the F-22/35, Rafale etc. The second generation radar will be able to map an enemy pilot's face from 500Km away. It can see through the F-22's body and look at the type of weapons it is carrying, it can see through buildings and count the number of people inside it etc.
> .





randomradio said:


> It's a brand new radar technology. It will replace current radar with an electronic eye that acts like a human eye and will have x-ray vision also. Basically Superman's eyes. Oh, did I mention it will be able to shoot down aircraft and missiles also? I'm not joking.



As being discussed in that other thread, i hope you have some actually reason for these posts?


Radar that will destroy missiles and aircraft!!


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## GURU DUTT

randomradio said:


> This radar is available to India.


ya ya just like full TOT russians agreed to give for T90 Tanks  

any way truth of pudding is in eating it and im sure russians have linked this upgrade to three frigades rusting in one of there shipyards and a huge order of PAKFA that too as russians want anyway ... cheers mate

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## Arsalan

randomradio said:


> @Arsalan
> 
> Go through this thread.
> https://defence.pk/threads/analysis...radar-detection-of-aircraft-at-500-km.415852/
> 
> And these articles.


oo bahi Kuda ka wasaty yaar,, at least check the source of these BS articles. Aiming high is good but being delusional is problematic. Anyway, what can i say, it is your choice if you want to believe in Aliens.


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## randomradio

GURU DUTT said:


> ya ya just like full TOT russians agreed to give for T90 Tanks



They won't give us design ToT, but they will give us manufacturing ToT.

All countries are running research programs for this type of radar, it's the next level.



> any way truth of pudding is in eating it and im sure russians have linked this upgrade to three frigades rusting in one of there shipyards and a huge order of PAKFA that too as russians want anyway ... cheers mate



We plan on building multitudes of Russian frigates in India, with Reliance for now. We are short of 25+ frigates and we are building only 7.

And the phase I order for FGFA is 154. There is a possibility of ordering 60 older PAK FAs or even the next stage Russian versions. Overall numbers will cross 350.



Arsalan said:


> Radar that will destroy missiles and aircraft!!



That's a technology called HPM or High-Powered Microwave. Radars can generate enough power to actually destroy stuff. The problem is aircraft couldn't carry or generate enough power in the past, but that's changed now.

This is one such weapon.
http://defense-update.com/20150516_champ.html

Basically, this new radar won't have just 1000 or 2000 T/R modules, it will carry thousands of modules. So such radars will be able to generate a lot of energy.

And power will come from new 6th gen engines that can convert their entire thrust to electrical energy. FGFA will come with such engines. The Americans are running the ADVENT program for this engine.



Arsalan said:


> oo bahi Kuda ka wasaty yaar,, at least check the source of these BS articles. Aiming high is good but being delusional is problematic. Anyway, what can i say, it is your choice if you want to believe in Aliens.



Why is it BS? The source is KRET. They design radars for Russia. 

Their official website.
http://kret.com/en/news/10260/


> Thanks to radio-optical phased array antennas, the resolving power of communications systems and radar will increase tenfold. If modern radar has a radar radiation frequency of 10 GHz, with a 3 cm wide range of 1-2 GHz, then the radio-optical phased array antennas will be able to simultaneously operate at this frequency at a range from 1 Hz to 100 GHz.
> 
> In other words, radio-optical phased array antennas will be capable of carrying out a kind of *"X-ray vision"* of planes located at a distance of over 500 kilometers, producing a detailed, three-dimensional image. Moreover, since the signal is able to penetrate any obstacle, including a lead wall a meter thick, this technology can look inside a target to find out what equipment it carries, determine how many people are there, and even see their faces.



This 'alien' technology is real. It is Russian.

It is a whole new generation of radars. The first model is expected to be ready by 2018. And as the article mentions, it is guaranteed on the PAK FA.

They have basically replaced electrons with photons. Photons are used by the human eyes for sight, so it's obvious the physics is the same for a ROFAR. On top of that the human eye doesn't emit light, it only reflects light, whereas the ROFAR will emit its own light. It's basically superior to the human eye. It has x-ray vision as well as it can use it for HPM purposes.

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## Local_Legend

A fly in the ointment
The announcements from Russian manufacturers sound optimistic, but economic realities, shortcomings in organization and management and difficulties with training and recruiting personnel could hinder the implementation of their ideas. Russia still has difficulties mass-producing airborne active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar systems like those the U.S. already has not only on its fifth-generation F-22 and F-35 fighter aircraft, but also on its upgraded fourth-generation F-16 and F-15 fighters. The only Russian AESA radar system, Zhuk-A, created for the MiG-35, was first presented back in 2009, but as at the end of 2015 was still at the testing stage.

According to KRET, the Russian government has allocated 680 million rubles (about $8.4 million) to the entire ROFAR program. By comparison, the U.S. Department of Defense allocated $110 million dollars to photonics back in 2014, and plans to raise at least as much from private investors.

It is not just Russia and the U.S. who are involved in this technology race. For example, scientists from Italy presented a working model of a photonics-based radar system back in March 2013. And Jean-Loïc Galle, the executive vice president at France's Thales Group, has announced that it is stepping up its work in this area.

With such global competition, the announcements from Russia's KRET that working technology is to be created in the very near future sound almost like a challenge and represent a further test of the capabilities of Russia's defense industry.

( Sorry , Can't post link coz Im new.)

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## zebra7

randomradio said:


> NIIP Tikhomirov will supply the MKI's radar. The Mig-35 radar from Phazatron was speculation. And the MKI won't carry a radar from a different country. Radar was never the missing piece, but the radar technology that will be used is still in doubt, whether we will use the first generation AESA that will come with PAK FA Stage 1 or the second generation radar that will come with PAK FA Stage 2.
> 
> The second generation radar is many, many times superior to the first generation. The first gen is a simple radar that you can find in other aircraft today, including the F-22/35, Rafale etc. The second generation radar will be able to map an enemy pilot's face from 500Km away. It can see through the F-22's body and look at the type of weapons it is carrying, it can see through buildings and count the number of people inside it etc.
> 
> However what is in question is the type of engine upgrade. We don't know if it will use the same engines, same engines with uprated thrust (most likely) or a brand new engine like the 117S.



Bhaiya Yeh main Kya sun raha hu 



GURU DUTT said:


> bhai ji ye kuch jyada hi hogaya



Hi Guru Jee Jab aap aye to hum Ban Ho gaye. Random Bhai ne to Jyada to nahi chada lee

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## randomradio

zebra7 said:


> Bhaiya Yeh main Kya sun raha hu



Nanophotonics. Electronics toh suna hoga na? Yeh next gen hai. Aage chal ke electronics ko replace karegi. Saare fields mein, processors mein bhe. Electronics industry se photonics industry.

Developer ka website padho.
http://kret.com/en/news/10260/


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## zebra7

randomradio said:


> Nanophotonics. Electronics toh suna hoga na? Yeh next gen hai. Aage chal ke electronics ko replace karegi. Saare fields mein, processors mein bhe. Electronics industry se photonics industry.
> 
> Developer ka website padho.
> http://kret.com/en/news/10260/


Bahut Acha hai Bhaiya. Most of the things in the article was OHT --- Over Head Transmission to me.

But Bhaiya.

1. Russia is not the only one who is working on this field, nor it is the leading one to put the most money and R&D on it.

2. If we are talking of Super Sukhoi upgrade, than the most economical one would be to persue the Bars upgrade, which would include the AESA probably GANs based Antenna Gimlet, and the Radar Computer upgrade. 

3. Looking at the MKI being the one which is used as the test bed for our indegenous ASTRA, NGRAAM and now the Brahmos, I feel that Russia have shared the source code of the BARS with India. What is needed with the BARS is the algorithm needed for the A2G target detection and the SAR which even Russia lags behind the Israel


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## randomradio

zebra7 said:


> Bahut Acha hai Bhaiya. Most of the things in the article was OHT --- Over Head Transmission to me.
> 
> But Bhaiya.
> 
> 1. Russia is not the only one who is working on this field, nor it is the leading one to put the most money and R&D on it.



Based on open source, US, France and Italy are also working on it. It is obvious that so is India and China.

It's more important to put it in the field first. It appears Russia will be first. Other countries may come in anywhere after 5 to 10 years, maybe more.

Russia did that even in the 80s, when they first put PESA on a Mig-31. Their competitors matched that only in the 2000s.



> 2. If we are talking of Super Sukhoi upgrade, than the most economical one would be to persue the Bars upgrade, which would include the AESA probably GANs based Antenna Gimlet, and the Radar Computer upgrade.



We are not looking at 'economical' upgrades. It is actually more economical if we go for avionics that are similar to FGFA anyway. I am not saying this radar will go on the MKI right away anyway. We are only upgrading the first 50 jets out of 270 right now. So it can come in anytime. Getting it with the first 50 will be bonus.



> 3. Looking at the MKI being the one which is used as the test bed for our indegenous ASTRA, NGRAAM and now the Brahmos, I feel that Russia have shared the source code of the BARS with India. What is needed with the BARS is the algorithm needed for the A2G target detection and the SAR which even Russia lags behind the Israel



We don't know that, if Russia is lagging behind. Bur current Bars is quite restricted in hardware because it is PESA compared to all the AESAs coming up.

We won't know for a few more years.


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## Stephen Cohen

@Centurion2016

You said in that LCA thread that India's contribution to SU 30 mki is equal to Pakistan's contribution in JF 17

https://defence.pk/threads/hal-tejas-updates-news-discussions-thread-2.351401/page-118#post-8450494


That is not correct
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.indiadefence.com/SU_30MKI.pdf

The heart of the Su-30MKI’s cutting-edge navigation and-attack system, however, is India’s own range of core mission computers, display processors and radar programmable signal processors, which have been developed by the State-owned Defence Research & Development Organisation under Project Vetrivel.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html
Indian Contribution
*
The Su-30MKI contains not only Russian, French, South African and Israeli Customer Furnished Equipment (CFE), but also a substantial percentage of Indian designed and manufactured avionics.

They took six years to develop from start to MKI. Advanced avionics were developed by DRDO under a project code named "Vetrivale" (a Tamil name for the victorious lance carried by the youthful Lord Karthikeya or Murugan, a son of Parvati and Shiva) in close collaboration with the PSUs and the IAF.

Indian avionics have been received and acknowledged enthusiastically by the Russian principals.

The following are the components developed by Indian agencies:


Mission Computer cum Display Processor - MC-486 and DP-30MK (Defence Avionics Research Establishment - DARE)
Radar Computer - RC1 and RC2 (DARE)
Tarang Mk2 Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) + High Accuracy Direction Finding Module (HADF) (DARE
IFF-1410A - Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)
Integrated Communication suite INCOM 1210A (HAL)
Radar Altimeter - RAM-1701 (HAL)
Programmable Signal Processor (PSP) - (LRDE)
Multi Function Displays (MFD) - Samtel/DARE


The 32-bit Mission Computer performs mission-oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration-cum-redundancy management and in-flight systems self-tests. In compliance with MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards, Ada language has been adopted for the mission computer's software. The other DARE-developed product, the Tarang Mk2 (Tranquil) radar warning receiver, is manufactured by state-owned BEL at its Bangalore facility.

These avionics equipment have also been certified for their airworthiness in meeting the demanding standards of Russian military aviation. The cumulative value of such indigenous avionic equipment is estimated to exceed Rs. 250 lakhs per aircraft. Since the core avionics were developed by a single agency (DRDO) - they have significant commonality of hardware and software amongst them using a modular approach to design. This obviously results in major cost and time savings in development; it also benefits the user in maintenance and spares inventories.

The DRDO has gone a step further and come out with a new design of the Core Avionics Computer (CAC) which can be used with a single module adaptation across many other aircraft platforms. Thus the CAC which is derived from the computers designed for the Su-30MKI will now be the centre piece of the avionics upgrades for the MiG-27 and Jaguar aircraft as well. The CAC was demonstrated by DRDO at the Aero India exhibition at Yelahanka and attracted a good deal of international attention. Taken together with the systems already developed indigenously for the LCA (such as the Digital Flight Control Computer and HUD), clearly Indian avionics have a significant export potential in the burgeoning global market for avionics modernisation.

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## randomradio

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...sukhoi-russia-upgrade-su-30mki-fgfa/87609150/

*India has stepped up negotiations with Russia to upgrade its 194 Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole aircraft with the near fifth-generation level at a cost of more than $8 billion. The upgraded version would be renamed Super Sukhoi.

"A Russian team was in New Delhi earlier this month to discuss [the] upgrade plan with India, which will be finalized in the next four to six months," said a senior Ministry of Defence (MoD) official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.*

The Indian Air Force (IAF) wants to upgrade the existing and eventually the entire fleet of 272 Su-30MKI to the near fifth-generation level to increase its combat worthiness, an IAF official said.

While the IAF official said the [Su-30MKI] upgrade won't affect the proposed Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) — worth $25 billion — analysts say the diversion of funds for the Super Sukhoi could delay the FGFA.

India and Russia inked a Preliminary Development Agreement in 2011 to jointly build the FGFA. However, a final agreement, which will clear the payment of around $6 billion as India's share in the development of the FGFA, has yet to be inked because the two sides have not been able to resolve issues relating to work share in production, the order from IAF and the incorporation of FGFA by IAF.

"Upgrade of the Su-30 will certainly slow the FGFA acquisition primarily due to financial limitations," retired IAF Air Marshal Muthumanikam Matheswaran said. "But upgraded Su-30 is not the same as FGFA."

Asked the rationale to upgrade in place of buying a new aircraft since the cost of upgrades are often steep, Matheswaran said: "An upgrade at the maximum will be about half the cost of the original aircraft in Su-30 generation. A new aircraft in place of Su-30 means FGFA, which is far more expensive."

Explaining why Super Sukhoi will not come at the cost of the FGFA, a second, senior IAF official said: "FGFA is a program already approved; Super Sukhoi is not yet approved."

Daljit Singh, a retired IAF Air Marshal and defense analyst, explained the difference between FGFA and Super Sukhoi.

"FGFA has some distinct features, which Super Su-30MKI will not have. These include internal weapon-carrying bays to enhance[d] stealth features, integrated internal fit of electronic warfare suite, super-cruise capability and inherent stealth design. Su-30 cannot be redesigned as a stealth aircraft. Any changes of wing design and material to improve stealth would be very expensive and time consuming and would be akin to a different design. Therefore, FGFA project may not be canceled in total in view of the Su-30 upgrade," Singh said.

The plan to bring Super Sukhoi closer to FGFA includes modernizing the cockpit for pilots so that it will be easier for the pilots to shift to FGFA. In addition the upgraded aircraft will have advanced stealth characteristics and be equipped with longer range missiles with an infrared homing system, the Indo-Russian supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, and will have new advanced avionics and active electronically scanned array, according to a diplomat with the Russian Embassy.

"[A] major part of the upgrade [to Super Sukhoi] involves avionics and sensors. These are completely new with new systems and new software. Hence it has no relation to old problems with software. Engine issues will have to be dealt with," Matheswaran said.

*A Russian diplomat in India, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that after the contract is signed for the upgrade to Super Sukhoi, the prototype will be made in Russia and the upgrade will be done at India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.*

Despite the need expressed by IAF for Super Sukhoi, availability of funds remains a major hitch, the first IAF official said. The MoD official also confirmed that availability of funds for upgrade could be an issue.

IAF has significant shortage of combat aircraft and the numbers are falling; and the fighter aircraft strength of IAF is down to 25 squadrons (one squadron is equal to 18 aircraft) as against the required strength of 45 squadrons, the first IAF official said.

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## T-55




----------



## PARIKRAMA

*New lease of life for Indian ‘Flanker’*
Published: July 28th, 2016


According to trade journal _Defense News_, India has ‘stepped up negotiations’ with Russia as it seeks to upgrade its front-line fleet of Sukhoi Su-30MKI multi-role fighters. Expected to cost in excess of $8 billion, the upgrade package is intended to bring the aircraft to a ‘fifth-generation level’ and will be carried out on an initial total of 194 jets.

There has long been talk of a proposed or ‘Super 30’ upgrade for the Indian ‘Flanker’ fleet, but the ‘Super Sukhoi’ now seems to have been adopted for the initiative. It seems that urgency has been added by New Delhi’s continued failure to sign off on a deal for 36 Dassault Rafale fighters, as well as growing concerns that the Indo-Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) might fall short of requirements.

Based on the latest report, Russian officials visited New Delhi in the last few weeks in order to iron out details of the upgrade. Quoting an unnamed official, _Defense News _says that the upgrade deal will be ‘finalized in the next four to six months’.

Under a series of contracts (the first of which was signed on November 30, 1996, and the most recent on December 24, 2012), total orders for the Indian Air Force have reached 272 Su-30MKI versions. By early 2016, the IAF had received an estimated 225 aircraft, including 50 delivered in a ‘flyaway’ condition from Russia and 175 made by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s (HAL) Nasik facility. At the beginning of 2016 the Indian Air Force initiated the procurement of a batch of 40 more Su-30MKIs.
*
The latest upgrade package for India will likely be based around a new computing system (reportedly of Israeli design) as well as new or upgraded sensors, primarily the radar. The weapons array is to be enhanced with long-range RVV-BD (R-37M) and medium-range RVV-SD (R-77-1) air-to-air missiles (AAMs), as well as Kh-59MK air-to-surface missiles. India also wants to adapt the aircraft for the carriage of indigenous weapons, including Astra AAMs; an Astra was launched from a Su-30MKI for the first time on May 4, 2014, during trials in India. New self-protection systems are expected, as well as engine compressor blades, wing and empennage leading edges, and cockpit canopy coatings to reduce the radar cross-section. The AL-31FP engine control system will be upgraded. Under a separate project, the Indo-Russian Brahmos-A air-to-surface missile is to be implemented on the Su-30MKI.

At the beginning of this year Yuri Belyi, the head of the Tikhomirov NIIP radar company, complained that talks with India about the upgrade of the Su-30MKI had stalled. It is more likely that Russia’s Su-30SM fighters will be upgraded first. As far as the radar is concerned, two stages of upgrade work are planned: first, the Indian computers will be replaced with indigenous examples, and then the radar performance will be enhanced (longer range, greater jamming resistance, new operational modes). Replacement of the passive electronically scanned array (PESA) with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) unified with the N036/N079 radar antenna of the fifth-generation Sukhoi T-50 fighter was once considered, but this has apparently been abandoned.*

It has been suggested that Su-30MKI upgrade will push back the FGFA. This is bad timing for the $25-billion Indo-Russian fighter project — itself based on the Sukhoi T-50 — which has already run into flak in India.

According to Angad Singh, a New Delhi-based defense journalist, ‘The IAF has repeatedly signaled a willingness to sacrifice the FGFA if it means they can shore up fighter numbers in the short term. The hugely expensive MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) program, and now the government-to-government Dassault Aviation Rafale deal have priority at Air Headquarters, and multiple pronouncements by multiple officers have indicated that they are willing to push back or scale down (or both) the FGFA in favor of a more immediate fourth-generation buy.’






While the Su-30MKI upgrade won’t boost numbers of aircraft on the flight line, it will help ensure that the IAF remains credible despite a drastic decline in fighter numbers (equivalent to 25 squadrons compared to the required strength of 45 squadrons).

Russian officials confirm that once a contract for the Sukhoi upgrade is signed, an initial prototype will be completed in Russia and upgrade will be conducted by HAL in India. This is the same approach that has been taken for India’s ongoing MiG-29 upgrade project.

A full account of the two-seat Su-30 ‘Flanker’ family — including the IAF’s Su-30MKI — appeared in the August issue of _Combat Aircraft_.

_Thomas Newdick_
http://www.combataircraft.net/2016/07/28/new-lease-of-life-for-indian-flanker/

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## Abingdonboy

T-55 said:


>


That's pretty cool but it's not going to be as drastic as that.

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## ashok321

https://defence.pk/threads/india-ne...sukhoi-standards-for-8bn.441750/#post-8516328

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## [Bregs]

*Russia, India may hold first aircraft launches of BrahMos by year end*

In late June, a modified Su-30MKI fighter jet performed its first experimental flight with a BrahMos missile demonstrator

MOSCOW, August 2. /TASS/. Russia and India may hold two launches of BrahMos cruise missiles from a Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jet against sea and ground targets at the end of this year, the CEO of Russia’s Research and Production Association of Machine-Building told TASS on 

The Research and Production Association of Machine-Building is involved in the development of BrahMos cruise missiles jointly with the Indian side.

"If positive results of the work with the technologically operational missile are received, there are plans to carry out demonstration launches of two organic missiles against a sea and a ground target," CEO of the Research and Production Association of Machine-Building Alexander Leonov said.

In late June, a modified Su-30MKI fighter jet performed its first experimental flight with a BrahMos missile demonstrator, he added.
According to Leonov, a flight with a mock-up equipped with a system of sensors confirmed the calculated data and the results of tests on scaled models in a wind tunnel.

"After fulfilling the program of flights to get operational performance readings, the so-called emergency release of the mock-up is planned to get data on the dynamics of the missile’s safe separation from the aircraft," Leonov said.

Spokesman for the Russian-Indian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace Praveen Pathak earlier told Russian daily Izvestia that the possibility of the missile’s separation from an aircraft would be checked in August. In his estimate, the first launch of a missile from a Su-30MKI may take place in autumn.

India plans to arm three regiments of Su-30MKI fighter jets with BrahMos missiles. For this purpose, the missile has been improved: the airborne version is 500 kilograms lighter and almost half a meter shorter. BrahMos missiles are already operational with the Indian Army and Navy.


More:
http://tass.ru/en/defense/892006

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## GuardianRED

Got an article from combat aircraft about the IAF for the Red Flag Alaska 2016 ... how do i upload this on PDF?


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## Han Patriot

T-55 said:


>


Semi stealth, same like semi-HSR, or semi failure? You guys are really funny.


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## Taygibay

GuardianRED said:


> Got an article from combat aircraft about the IAF for the Red Flag Alaska 2016 ... how do i upload this on PDF?



I take it you mean a paper based article, GuardianR mate?

If so, the old school way is taking a picture of each page with the text big and clear enough
or to find a modern computer printer. Those have scanning possibilities and proper software
will even allow you to read the characters off the print and make it a text based document.

There is an even older trick to be sure and that is to type in the words you read on your keyboard
with your own 2 pretty agile little indexes. I think it's called a transcript and it's a drag but it works!

 Tay.


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## GuardianRED

Taygibay said:


> I take it you mean a paper based article, GuardianR mate?
> 
> If so, the old school way is taking a picture of each page with the text big and clear enough
> or to find a modern computer printer. Those have scanning possibilities and proper software
> will even allow you to read the characters off the print and make it a text based document.
> 
> There is an even older trick to be sure and that is to type in the words you read on your keyboard
> with your own 2 pretty agile little indexes. I think it's called a transcript and it's a drag but it works!
> 
> Tay.


Lol... should have mentioned that i have the e-book version for "combat aircraft monthly"-july issue, and there is an article for Red flag.... trying to convert it to pics , so lets see 

View media item 16986View media item 16987View media item 16988View media item 16989View media item 16990View media item 16991

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## Taygibay

Nope, check :

*Pakistan Defence - Error*
You do not have permission to view media within this album.

https://defence.pk/media/16986/#ixzz4GGlmLlUj

You should check your sharing preferences in your profile/account.

Read you later, mate, Tay.


----------



## GuardianRED

Taygibay said:


> Nope, check :
> 
> *Pakistan Defence - Error*
> You do not have permission to view media within this album.
> 
> https://defence.pk/media/16986/#ixzz4GGlmLlUj
> 
> You should check your sharing preferences in your profile/account.
> 
> Read you later, mate, Tay.


try again


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## Taygibay

No need, I can see the images in your post now! 

I'll read it later, have fun, Tay.

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## randomradio

GuardianRED said:


> Lol... should have mentioned that i have the e-book version for "combat aircraft monthly"-july issue, and there is an article for Red flag.... trying to convert it to pics , so lets see
> 
> View media item 16986View media item 16987View media item 16988View media item 16989View media item 16990View media item 16991



Good to know there were at least 6 F-22s participating.

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## The Eagle

@waz 

Sir, a thread based upon news regarding similar subject is created separately, need to be merged here. Thanks.

https://defence.pk/threads/india-ne...kis-to-super-sukhoi-standards-for-8bn.441750/

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## #hydra#

How our mki perform against f15,there is no point in comparison between mki and other teen series fighters.


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## kaykay

http://www.defencenews.in/article/India,-Russia-make-progress-in-talks-on-Su-30-MKI-upgrade-7526

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## ashok321

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...s-in-talks-on-su30-upgrade/article8991493.ece






— file photo: V. Sudershan
An IAF Su-30 aircraft

India and Russia made *significant progress* in the discussions for modernisation of all Su-30 fighters of the Indian Air Force (IAF) during the visit of a Russian team last month. An agreement is possible by the year-end, senior officials say.

“*Discussions were held last month, and significant ground was covered. We hope to conclude the deal soon*,” a top official told _The Hindu_.

The upgrade will give the fight jets new avionics and radar, improved stealth characteristics to reduce the radar cross-section, better electronic warfare capability and new weapons. Though the quantum of the deal is not finalised, some officials said it could be in the range of $7-8 billion.

Su-30 are the most modern fighters and the main stay of the IAF. Given the delay in procurement of new fighters, they are crucial for maintaining the combat edge of the IAF. Discussions had been under way for some time for upgrading the aircraft to what was called ‘Super Sukhoi’, but the talks gained momentum recently. “There is nothing called Super Sukhoi, but we have been discussing the upgrade of Su-30 to comprehensively improve their capabilities. Some progress has been made, and we are trying to finalise the technical specifications of the upgrade,” a senior IAF officer said.

India had signed the initial agreement with Russia in the late 1990s for procuring 50 Su-30 multi-role fighter jets in a fly-away condition.


Then, it ordered 272 Su-30MKI fighter jets to be made by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) at Nasik. Most of the aircraft to be made by HAL have been delivered, and the entire lot of 222 aircraft is expected to be completed in the next couple of years. The HAL has a production rate of 10-12 aircraft a year.

*No progress on FGFA*
This comes in the backdrop of the delay in concluding the final agreement for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) to be developed by India and Russia, besides the delay in concluding an agreement for the purchase of the Rafale fighter jets and in the induction of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft.

*A preliminary design agreement was signed in 2010 between HAL and Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau to make the FGFA for use by both countries. So far, both sides have invested $295 million in the preliminary design. However, the final agreement got stuck because of the disagreements over the work share and investment. Several rounds of talks have been held, but there has been no progress.

“The FGFA is a long project. It will take some time,” one officer said.*

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## Gregor Clegane

> The upgrade will give the fight jets new avionics and radar, improved stealth characteristics to reduce the radar cross-section, better electronic warfare capability and new weapons.


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## kaykay

So upgrade is all about new avionics and radar, new weapons, improved stealth characteristics, improved EW suite......but it says nothing on engine front....any change in engines like uprating the current ones? or nothing at all.

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## Aero

kaykay said:


> So upgrade is all about new avionics and radar, new weapons, improved stealth characteristics, improved EW suite......but it says nothing on engine front....any change in engines like uprating the current ones? or nothing at all.


They will have to replace engines with new one if Trust increases from new one, then it may go on for testing again.
However if reliability of engines can e improved then it should be there.

Best will be improving common failing parts with better one and asking Russia to allow india to produce spares for jets, this way readiness can be increse > 70% for MKIs.

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## kaykay

Aero said:


> They will have to replace engines with new one if Trust increases from new one, then it may go on for testing again.
> However if reliability of engines can e improved then it should be there.
> 
> Best will be improving common failing parts with better one and asking Russia to allow india to produce spares for jets, this way readiness can be increse > 70% for MKIs.


I think engine issues are sorted out since last year now.... availability rate is also significantly increased and they keep trying to improve. My question was whether current engines would br uprated? Earlier it was reported that current engines would be uprated but nothing of that sort coming out in recent reports.

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## Aero

kaykay said:


> I think engine issues are sorted out since last year now.... availability rate is also significantly increased and they keep trying to improve. My question was whether current engines would br uprated? Earlier it was reported that current engines would be uprated but nothing of that sort coming out in recent reports.


But if they change engines + (Avionics + New Radar system, Stealth Coating or changes in plane)
It may qualify as a new variant or plane in that case & will likely require testing.

More Thrust means strengthening of frame will likely be needed.

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## kaykay

Aero said:


> But if they change engines + (Avionics + New Radar system, Stealth Coating or changes in plane)
> It may qualify as a new variant or plane in that case & will likely require testing.
> 
> More Thrust means strengthening of frame will likely be needed.


No I am not saying about changing of engine but just uprating the current ones....

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## PARIKRAMA

@waz @WAJsal @WebMaster 

Pls merge this thread with the super sukhoi sticky thread.

@ashok321 
Pls post super sukhoi related news in the sticky thread only.


*All Indian members*
Pls do nt open new threads on this topic. The coming time upto annual India Russia summit will see more news.. the ASQRs are more or less ready and next phase of localisation of the upgrades will be part of the agenda along with the financial part.

Pls keep it in sticky so that all can access relevant data and discussion at one place.

Thanks in advance ..

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## #hydra#

kaykay said:


> No I am not saying about changing of engine but just uprating the current ones....


Thrust uprating will cause engine life reduction.


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## ashok321

*Russia, India discuss modernization of Su-30 aircraft*

http://rbth.com/news/2016/08/18/russia-india-discuss-modernization-of-su-30-aircraft_622079









Moscow and New Delhi may work out an agreement on modernizing the Indian Air Force’s Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters before year-end, The Hindu reported on August 17.


According to the newspaper, the parties made considerable headway with their upgrade talks last month, when a Russian delegation came to New Delhi to discuss the military-technical cooperation.



“The consultations took place last month, and good progress was made. We hope for the deal to be made soon,” The Hindu quoted an official who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

The upgrade will equip the fighter jets with sophisticated avionics, radar and weapons and reduce their radar signature.

According to preliminary estimates, the upgrade of up to 200 Su-30MKIs may cost $8 billion.

The upgrade will be handled by India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

The Su-30MKI multirole fighter was developed to meet the requirements of the Indian Air Force.


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## sathya

^^^^ rafale arm wt seem low! I think it's more than8000 kgs or 16000 pounds


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## GuardianRED



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## PARIKRAMA

@GuardianRED - Nice find..
Enjoy this as well..

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## kaykay

Whoa!!! They maintained 100% serviceability for all platforms for 4 weeks during red flag exercise? It means in case of war, it can be done too.

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## Abingdonboy

kaykay said:


> Whoa!!! They maintained 100% serviceability for all platforms for 4 weeks during red flag exercise? It means in case of war, it can be done too.


Where there is a will, there is a way!

A major contributing factor is that the MKI is basically fully indegenised 8 years down the line (from Red Flag 08) meaning India can do most (if not all) support activities in house wheras not too long ago it was dependant on the Russians and we all know how reliable they can be (they seem to fail at to deliver as stipulated in every single service contract).

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## ashok321

*HAL may put in Rs 2,000 crore for Sukhoi 30 spares hub*

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...sukhoi-30-spares-hub/articleshow/53919425.cms

_ Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is working on a pact with the air force and the Russian government to set up a *spares hub* for Sukhoi 30 fighters in India. _

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## ashok321

*Russia's Sukhoi Super 30: The Outlook for India’s Ultra-Advanced Flanker Upgrade*

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...he-outlook-indias-ultra-advanced-17535?page=2








The Su-30MKI program still remains unprecedented in terms of the time it took to implement. Most of the Indian aerospace programs are very slow. They include, for example, the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 upgrades. Such upgrades, however, appear to be the best way for the IAF to bolster its fighting ability, especially in view of the budget constraints and the ongoing paralysis of the tender procedures that prevent the IAF from increasing the number of its squadrons to 45. Upgrading the existing planes obviates the need for increasing the already excessive number of various plane models in service with the IAF. Upgrade programs are also cheaper than buying new planes, and they are fully in line with the government’s _Make in India _policy.

*The languid pace of decision-making on the IAF upgrade programs may be a reflection of India’s fundamental cultural patterns and of the additional red tape introduced by the DPP mechanism.* Back in the 2000s, the IAF had a clear superiority over the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) by every possible measure, and it compensated for the Chinese Air Force’s greater numbers by superior technology (thanks primarily to the rapid implementation of the Su-30MKI program). Slow and deliberate decision-making therefore did not pose any major military-political risks, and it did help to keep costs under control. With the existing balance of military power and technology at the time, there was no pressing need for the Indian MoD to rush the procurement of new planes or the upgrades of the existing ones, so its relaxed approach was entirely rational.

*Now, however, the situation is completely different. Pakistan has received up-to-date versions of America’s F-16 fighters and dozens of the Chinese-Pakistani FC-1 planes. What was once India’s complete dominance over the Pakistani Air Force has become a mere superiority. In fact, Pakistan may well achieve near-parity over time if it receives J-10 fighters from China (as well as the J-31, the quasi-5thgeneration fighter now being developed by the Chinese). Such near-parity between the IAF and the PAF would be completely unprecedented.*


*The power balance with the Chinese Air Force is an even greater worry for India. In the 1990s and early 2000s China bought 76 Su-27SK/UBK fighters and 100Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters from Russia. It quickly built another 105 Su-27SKplanes under Russian license, and then launched production of its own clones of these planes without bothering with the license. All of these planes represented early 1980s technology – but now China is about to start receiving the latest Russian Su-35 fighters. It is also working on its own quasi-5th generation fighter programs. As a result, the Chinese Air Force will catch up with the Indian Air Force in terms of technology, while also maintaining its impressive numerical superiority. India’s old defense procurement model, in which seven to 10 years is required merely to prepare a contract, has therefore become obsolete and unsustainable.*

*There is a pressing need for speeding up the Su-30MKI program in order to restore the Indian Air Force’s technological superiority over the Chinese. Essentially, India needs to pull off the same trick it did in the mid-1990s, when it responded to China’s mass procurement of Su-27/30 fighters with the originalSu-30MKI program. Two decades on, India needs to respond to China’s Su-35 and J-31 jets with the Sukhoi Super 30.*

*Upgrade options*


The choice of the specific upgrade option will represent some kind of compromise between the price tag, the time frame, and the capability of the upgraded plane. In theory, this leaves a broad variety of technological solutions on the table. The most conservative solution - which is also the cheapest and quickest – would be to roll out to the entire Su-30MKI fleet the improvements already incorporated in the latest versions of the plane. The Su-30MKI is the oldest member of the family that also includes the Malaysian Su-30MKM (the 2007 model), and the Russian Su-30SM (the 2011 model). A conservative upgrade option would include a limited number of additional self-defense systems (similar to the ones used in the Malaysian model), *as well as the numerous new missiles and smart bombs that are now being developed as part of the Russian 2020 State Armament Program for the Su-30SM. The conservative approach would essentially bring the Su-30MKI up to the Su-30SM level.*

*Meanwhile, the most radical upgrade option would be to develop an equivalent of America’s Silent Eagle fighter. This option would include replacing most of the plane’s systems. Most importantly, its passive phased array radar would be replaced with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. Changes would also be made to the plane’s airframe to reduce its radar cross-section. The obvious drawback of this option is the high cost and the long time it would take to implement.*

*Finally, the most realistic option that would deliver great returns in terms of the plane’s capability without costing too much or taking too much time sits somewhere in the middle. It includes a deep upgrade of the plane’s N-011M Bars radar and integration of the latest Russian and Indian-made electronics, optics and infrared systems without modifications to the airframe.*

*It would also make sense to implement the Su-30MKI upgrade program in several batches of 50-55 planes, with each successive batch incorporating more complex technology. Such an approach was mentioned as a possibility by Yuri Beliy, chief of the NIIP Tikhomirov company, the developer of the Bars radar. Speaking in an interview, Beliy said that the first phase of the program could include upgrading the Bars radar to give it a greater range, higher resolution, better jamming resistance, and support for new weapons systems. At a later phase, the Bars radar could be equipped with an active phased array. The planes upgraded in the first batch could later be brought to the technical standard of the latest batches without any major difficulties.*



The approach would make it possible to start the program quickly (thereby securing orders for India’s HAL and other local suppliers). It would improve the IAF’s capability in an evolutionary way, and it would be easier on the IAF pilots, who will not have to deal with a quantum leap in the complexity of the upgraded plane’s systems. Such a phased strategy worked well in 2002-2004, when Russia delivered the first 32 Su-30MKI planes. The fighters were supplied in three batches of 10, 12 and 10. Each successive batch included some improvements that were later incorporated in the previous batches, so all 32 planes were eventually brought to the same standard.

When the Su-30MKI specifications were being drawn up, the Indian military came up with an extremely well-balanced set of requirements for the new plane. Those requirements were at the cutting edge of – but not beyond – the Russian defense industry’s capability at the time, and could be implemented at a reasonable cost and within reasonable deadlines. It is to be hoped that a similarly well-balanced solution will be found for the Sukhoi Super 30 program.

_Konstantin Makienko is deputy director of the Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) in Moscow_

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## SR-91

ashok321 said:


> *Russia's Sukhoi Super 30: The Outlook for India’s Ultra-Advanced Flanker Upgrade*
> 
> http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...he-outlook-indias-ultra-advanced-17535?page=2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Su-30MKI program still remains unprecedented in terms of the time it took to implement. Most of the Indian aerospace programs are very slow. They include, for example, the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 upgrades. Such upgrades, however, appear to be the best way for the IAF to bolster its fighting ability, especially in view of the budget constraints and the ongoing paralysis of the tender procedures that prevent the IAF from increasing the number of its squadrons to 45. Upgrading the existing planes obviates the need for increasing the already excessive number of various plane models in service with the IAF. Upgrade programs are also cheaper than buying new planes, and they are fully in line with the government’s _Make in India _policy.
> 
> *The languid pace of decision-making on the IAF upgrade programs may be a reflection of India’s fundamental cultural patterns and of the additional red tape introduced by the DPP mechanism.* Back in the 2000s, the IAF had a clear superiority over the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) by every possible measure, and it compensated for the Chinese Air Force’s greater numbers by superior technology (thanks primarily to the rapid implementation of the Su-30MKI program). Slow and deliberate decision-making therefore did not pose any major military-political risks, and it did help to keep costs under control. With the existing balance of military power and technology at the time, there was no pressing need for the Indian MoD to rush the procurement of new planes or the upgrades of the existing ones, so its relaxed approach was entirely rational.
> 
> *Now, however, the situation is completely different. Pakistan has received up-to-date versions of America’s F-16 fighters and dozens of the Chinese-Pakistani FC-1 planes. What was once India’s complete dominance over the Pakistani Air Force has become a mere superiority. In fact, Pakistan may well achieve near-parity over time if it receives J-10 fighters from China (as well as the J-31, the quasi-5thgeneration fighter now being developed by the Chinese). Such near-parity between the IAF and the PAF would be completely unprecedented.*
> 
> 
> *The power balance with the Chinese Air Force is an even greater worry for India. In the 1990s and early 2000s China bought 76 Su-27SK/UBK fighters and 100Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters from Russia. It quickly built another 105 Su-27SKplanes under Russian license, and then launched production of its own clones of these planes without bothering with the license. All of these planes represented early 1980s technology – but now China is about to start receiving the latest Russian Su-35 fighters. It is also working on its own quasi-5th generation fighter programs. As a result, the Chinese Air Force will catch up with the Indian Air Force in terms of technology, while also maintaining its impressive numerical superiority. India’s old defense procurement model, in which seven to 10 years is required merely to prepare a contract, has therefore become obsolete and unsustainable.*
> 
> *There is a pressing need for speeding up the Su-30MKI program in order to restore the Indian Air Force’s technological superiority over the Chinese. Essentially, India needs to pull off the same trick it did in the mid-1990s, when it responded to China’s mass procurement of Su-27/30 fighters with the originalSu-30MKI program. Two decades on, India needs to respond to China’s Su-35 and J-31 jets with the Sukhoi Super 30.*
> 
> *Upgrade options*
> 
> 
> The choice of the specific upgrade option will represent some kind of compromise between the price tag, the time frame, and the capability of the upgraded plane. In theory, this leaves a broad variety of technological solutions on the table. The most conservative solution - which is also the cheapest and quickest – would be to roll out to the entire Su-30MKI fleet the improvements already incorporated in the latest versions of the plane. The Su-30MKI is the oldest member of the family that also includes the Malaysian Su-30MKM (the 2007 model), and the Russian Su-30SM (the 2011 model). A conservative upgrade option would include a limited number of additional self-defense systems (similar to the ones used in the Malaysian model), *as well as the numerous new missiles and smart bombs that are now being developed as part of the Russian 2020 State Armament Program for the Su-30SM. The conservative approach would essentially bring the Su-30MKI up to the Su-30SM level.*
> 
> *Meanwhile, the most radical upgrade option would be to develop an equivalent of America’s Silent Eagle fighter. This option would include replacing most of the plane’s systems. Most importantly, its passive phased array radar would be replaced with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. Changes would also be made to the plane’s airframe to reduce its radar cross-section. The obvious drawback of this option is the high cost and the long time it would take to implement.*
> 
> *Finally, the most realistic option that would deliver great returns in terms of the plane’s capability without costing too much or taking too much time sits somewhere in the middle. It includes a deep upgrade of the plane’s N-011M Bars radar and integration of the latest Russian and Indian-made electronics, optics and infrared systems without modifications to the airframe.*
> 
> *It would also make sense to implement the Su-30MKI upgrade program in several batches of 50-55 planes, with each successive batch incorporating more complex technology. Such an approach was mentioned as a possibility by Yuri Beliy, chief of the NIIP Tikhomirov company, the developer of the Bars radar. Speaking in an interview, Beliy said that the first phase of the program could include upgrading the Bars radar to give it a greater range, higher resolution, better jamming resistance, and support for new weapons systems. At a later phase, the Bars radar could be equipped with an active phased array. The planes upgraded in the first batch could later be brought to the technical standard of the latest batches without any major difficulties.*
> 
> 
> 
> The approach would make it possible to start the program quickly (thereby securing orders for India’s HAL and other local suppliers). It would improve the IAF’s capability in an evolutionary way, and it would be easier on the IAF pilots, who will not have to deal with a quantum leap in the complexity of the upgraded plane’s systems. Such a phased strategy worked well in 2002-2004, when Russia delivered the first 32 Su-30MKI planes. The fighters were supplied in three batches of 10, 12 and 10. Each successive batch included some improvements that were later incorporated in the previous batches, so all 32 planes were eventually brought to the same standard.
> 
> When the Su-30MKI specifications were being drawn up, the Indian military came up with an extremely well-balanced set of requirements for the new plane. Those requirements were at the cutting edge of – but not beyond – the Russian defense industry’s capability at the time, and could be implemented at a reasonable cost and within reasonable deadlines. It is to be hoped that a similarly well-balanced solution will be found for the Sukhoi Super 30 program.
> 
> _Konstantin Makienko is deputy director of the Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) in Moscow_





Nice read!!!!

IAF needs to start making smart decisions based on long term requirements. Implement this upgrade in batches as stated, would be beneficial and faster.

Super SU-30MKI and Rafales are more than enough to counter China and Pakistan. But if China decides to deploy newly acquired SU-35 on or close Indian border, India to gain advantage, should buy 2 squadrons of newly built PAKFA. 

Even if they don't deploy SU-35s, India should still buy PAKFA and fly them for a couple years to know what changes it requires. IAF pilots will gain additional experience flying a new jet. FGFA will have only avionics changed, structure and flying characteristics will won't change. FGFA is definitely coming, so why not gain the experience faster. These 2 squadrons can later be upgraded to FGFA standard.

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## R!CK

SR-91 said:


> Nice read!!!!
> 
> IAF needs to start making smart decisions based on long term requirements. Implement this upgrade in batches as stated, would be beneficial and faster.
> 
> Super SU-30MKI and Rafales are more than enough to counter China and Pakistan. But if China decides to deploy newly acquired SU-35 on or close Indian border, India to gain advantage, should buy 2 squadrons of newly built PAKFA.
> 
> Even if they don't deploy SU-35s, India should still buy PAKFA and fly them for a couple years to know what changes it requires. IAF pilots will gain additional experience flying a new jet. FGFA will have only avionics changed, structure and flying characteristics will won't change. FGFA is definitely coming, so why not gain the experience faster. These 2 squadrons can later be upgraded to FGFA standard.



Interesting proposal, and you have a point. But 2 squadrons could be a big number. Maybe something like 12 units and it could help understand what the jets lack and need further improvement on. All this only after we sign the agreement for joint research so Russians don't think we are stuck with no choice. But highly unlikely to have IAF follow such a pattern.

Good Day!

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## GuardianRED



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## GuardianRED



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## GuardianRED



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## Agent_47

IndonesianAirForce

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## [Bregs]



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## newindiandefence

Any news regarding super sukhoi and fgfa discussion?


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## [Bregs]

Russia, India Discuss FGFA Advanced Fighter, Su-30MKI Upgrade







Indian and Russian defense delegations discussed joint defense projects and defense issues of mutual interest, in particular, the Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and the upgrade of the Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter, the sources at the Indian Defense Ministry sources told Sputnik.

NEW DELHI (Sputnik) — On Wednesday, the India-Russia intergovernmental commission on military and technical cooperation held a meeting in New Delhi, bringing together the delegations headed by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar.

India Seeks Foreign Defense Firm to Build Domestic Single-Engine Fighters "We discussed… the FGFA project and [upgrade] of SU-31 MKI which is presently India's priority," the sources said on Wednesday.

The Russian-Indian FGFA has stealth capabilities and is based on the Russian T-50 prototype jet. The FGFA project came about following the signing of a Russian-Indian cooperation agreement on October 18, 2007.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201610271046776483-russia-india-fgfa-sukhoi-upgrade/

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## abc123xyx

what is the upgrade ? the sytems are still to be devoloped.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Russia Unveils FGA 50 AESA Radar For MiG, Sukhoi Jets At Chinese Air show*






KRET's ZHUK-AME FGA 50 AESA Radar For MiG-35, Su-35, SU-30MKI
- A +
Russian defence electronics maker, Concern Radio-Electronic Technologies (KRET) showed its Zhuk-AME FGA 50 active phased array (AESA) multi-function compatabiel with the MIG and Sukhoi family of aircraft, at the Air Show China today.

The new radar can detect targets beyond the line of sight, track up to 30 of them and destroy up to 6 targets in the air and 4 on the ground.

Zhuk-AME FGA 50 is a multifunctional, multimode AESA radar (LTCC) that is designed for detection, acquisition, tracking and classification of targets on land, air and water. It can provide information support at low altitudes, navigation, as well as guidance for sophisticated air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons.

“This modernized Zhuk radar station has already received its passport for exporting. The system beats competitors in many tactical and technical aspects and was designed for the new generation of aircraft including the MIG-35 fighter”, said Deputy CEO of KRET Igor Nasenkov in a statement.

Zhuk-AME can function in various modes and can simultaneously detect and track targets on land, air and water and provide missile guidance for these targets.

AESA allows to increase the detection range for Zhuk-AME up to 160 km and to simultaneously operate in "air-air" and "air-land" modes, to recognize and classify group and single objects, to simultaneously attack multiple targets with high-precision means of destruction, as well as to transmit tactical data to other aircraft and to carry out electronic countermeasures.

The Zhuk-AME FGA 50 – multifunctional multimode AESA radar (LTCC), providing simultaneous tracking of multiple targets due to electronic beam position control.

The radar is designed for detection, acquisition, tracking and classification of targets on land, air, and water. FGA 50 can provide information support of low-altitude flight, navigation, guidance for sophisticated air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons. It has advantages in technical characteristics over its competitors, while being smaller and lighter.

*The possible aircraft which could be equipped with Zhuk-AME with AESA could be the MiG-35, the Su-30SM, Su-35 and the Su-30MKI.*

*The AESA radar will most likely be offered as part of the Su-30MKI upgrade package for the Indian Air Force*

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## spectribution

Nope not even close. New Su 30 mki radar will use backend N011M BARS processors with X Band modules and form a new radar reportedly called as MIRES. New radar will be super expensive as a fleet upgrade. You are looking at a retrofit and uprated engines.

Proof:






Prototype testing.

http://www.niip.ru/eng/index.php?op...13-19-53&catid=8:2011-07-06-06-33-26&Itemid=8

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2011/05/super-su-30mki-from-air-dominance-to.html

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## Ali Zadi

wonder if supercrusing is a possibility with these new upgraded engines ?


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## GURU DUTT

Ali Zadi said:


> wonder if supercrusing is a possibility with these new upgraded engines ?


what if they put couple of F16 engines on MKI with a variant of F16 AESA radar and avionics of MKI ... just asking a curious question .... is that even possible ?

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## Ali Zadi

GURU DUTT said:


> what if they put couple of F16 engines on MKI with a variant of F16 AESA radar and avionics of MKI ... just asking a curious question .... is that even possible ?



With the 117S supercrusing is possible already if the engines are upgraded in the lines of the 117S maybe supercrusing is a possibility. F16 engines as powerful as they are but are not designed to supercruse, AESA is already being worked on for the 30MKI but more likely that they will upgrade the pre-existing radar somehow.

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## GURU DUTT

Ali Zadi said:


> With the 117S supercrusing is possible already if the engines are upgraded in the lines of the 117S maybe supercrusing is a possibility. F16 engines as powerful as they are but are not designed to supercruse, AESA is already being worked on for the 30MKI but more likely that they will upgrade the pre-existing radar somehow.


looks more like russians are themselfs reluctant in giving MLU to MKI rather they want india to have Su35 as barnd new Su35 with latest AESA based radar and internal jammers and all those gizons as on MLU'd MKI would cost just over 25%-35% to estimated MLU cost of super sukhoi programme 

hence it would be better if we do a indipendent MLU with israeli EL2052 radar and version of F16 engine in our MKI frames and try bringing cost and spares and mantinece headache down

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## MULUBJA

GURU DUTT said:


> what if they put couple of F16 engines on MKI with a variant of F16 AESA radar and avionics of MKI ... just asking a curious question .... is that even possible ?


 
F 16 engines shall be under power.
FOr AESA of F16, you will requre to put additional modules to exploite the bigger area offered by nosecone of sukhoi. If Additional modules are put, it will work much better than MKI Radar. EW will work fine.


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## #hydra#

GURU DUTT said:


> what if they put couple of F16 engines on MKI with a variant of F16 AESA radar and avionics of MKI ... just asking a curious question .... is that even possible ?


Yup,only after you mixed vodka with beer for night. Then it will be realised in your dream.

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## Kailash Rava

mkb95 said:


> su30mki coupled with brahmos will be our one of the most important strategic weapon system.this will be the first time iaf will get true deep penetration capability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> question-is there *plane* of integrating brahmos with naval mig29?


Plane or plan ?

DONOT POST GRAPHIC/BLOODY/DEAD pictures or videos. Will result in an immediate ban. Write your reply...

Hi I m new here ..bhai ye super sukhoi program kaab start hoga?


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## Robinhood Pandey

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/784686323609268224

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## Water Car Engineer

*










DARE-DRDO Developed Cockpit Displays For Upcoming Super SU 30 MKI






Missile Warning Sensor Added-On To Pylon
*

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## Water Car Engineer

*Super Su 30 MKI Cockpit*

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## Water Car Engineer

Old Engine






New Engine

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## X_Killer

Horus said:


> This thread is for all updates and discussions related to the Super Sukhoi upgrade program of the Indian Air Force to upgrade its existing fleet of Su-30 MKI jets.
> 
> Keep it clean.


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## Ram_80

GURU DUTT said:


> looks more like russians are themselfs reluctant in giving MLU to MKI rather they want india to have Su35 as barnd new Su35 with latest AESA based radar and internal jammers and all those gizons as on MLU'd MKI would cost just over 25%-35% to estimated MLU cost of super sukhoi programme
> 
> hence it would be better if we do a indipendent MLU with israeli EL2052 radar and version of F16 engine in our MKI frames and try bringing cost and spares and mantinece headache down



My exact thoughts but about avionics, Sukhoi has to fit the engines and rest them. We can't because we don't have know why, only know how so we need to get AL 41 F engines. The thrust produced by AL 41 F is more than F414 and I don't think Americans will hand over the engines to Russian. Electronic ware fare, avionics and coke pit may be worked along with multiple industries.



ashok321 said:


> *Russia, India discuss modernization of Su-30 aircraft*
> 
> http://rbth.com/news/2016/08/18/russia-india-discuss-modernization-of-su-30-aircraft_622079
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moscow and New Delhi may work out an agreement on modernizing the Indian Air Force’s Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters before year-end, The Hindu reported on August 17.
> 
> 
> According to the newspaper, the parties made considerable headway with their upgrade talks last month, when a Russian delegation came to New Delhi to discuss the military-technical cooperation.
> 
> 
> 
> “The consultations took place last month, and good progress was made. We hope for the deal to be made soon,” The Hindu quoted an official who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
> 
> The upgrade will equip the fighter jets with sophisticated avionics, radar and weapons and reduce their radar signature.
> 
> According to preliminary estimates, the upgrade of up to 200 Su-30MKIs may cost $8 billion.
> 
> The upgrade will be handled by India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.
> 
> The Su-30MKI multirole fighter was developed to meet the requirements of the Indian Air Force.


Change the image to original MKI rather than SU 35.


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## nik141993

X_Killer said:


>


Don't post stupid stuff

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## doe33

NEW DELHI, MARCH 17: 
India and Russia on Friday signed two long-terms support agreements for the Sukhoi Su-30MKI combat aircraft fleet, which is the mainstay of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Both countries signed two agreements in the presence of Defence Minister Arun Jaitley and Russian Trade Minister Denis Manturov.

*The agreements include an upgraded schedule for delivery of spares from Russia for these jets, local manufacturing of parts and a proposed logistics hub for the fighter jets in Bengaluru by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).*

Su-30MKI was designed and developed by Russia's Irkut Corporation specifically for India. The licensed production of the aircraft takes place at HAL's facility in Nashik, Maharashtra.

*Another agreement was also signed to provide lifecycle support and maintenance of major Russian equipment and platforms for Mi-17 helicopters, MiG-29K aircraft, INS Vikramaditya and T-90 tanks.*

"To ensure smooth lifecycle of such equipments, the objective is to have long-term supply agreements between Russian OEMs and the Indian armed forces or platform manufacturers in case of licensed production such as HAL and the Ordinance Factories Board and to firm up modalities to manufacture some of the identified spare parts and components in India by Indian companies under 'Make in India' initiatives through technology transfer or through joint ventures between India and Russian companies," said a statement.

The agreements were signed between HAL and United Aircraft Corporation and United Engine Corporation.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...ort-pact-on-sukhoi-su30mki/article9589218.ece

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## doe33

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/842682374567600128


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## X_Killer




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## cerberus

*Irkut Corporation, manufacturer of Russia's Sukhoi brand of fighter aircraft, has offered the Indian Air Force a proposal to carry out a 'major modernization' of India's fleet of Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole air superiority fighters. What benefits will the upgrade mean for the Indian Air Force? Sputnik investigates.*

On Thursday, Irkut Corporation President Oleg Demchenko confirmed that the company had made a proposal to the Indian Air Force to modernize its fleet of Su-30MKI fighters. The official said that the modernization would significantly expand the planes' combat capabilities.

Irkut says that the company can build the necessary infrastructure to overhaul the Su-30s in India itself, while integrating new weapons and upgrading existing weapons and onboard systems. Localization would also improve after-sales service as well, according to officials.


The Su-30MKI, built under license by India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), is India's variant of the Russian Su-30 heavy all-weather, long-range multi-role fighter. The plane, expected to eventually form the backbone of India's Air Force as it retires older planes, was developed in the early 2000s, and began to be assembled in India starting in 2004. The IAF now has a total of 230 Su-30MKIs, with plans to order up to 84 more.



Negotiations on the modernization of Su-30MKI are continuing with the Indian Defense Ministry, Demchenko said, with the company presently preparing the necessary documentation.

Irkut officials have long emphasized the Su-30MKI's impressive upgrade potential, particularly its open (block) architecture for its onboard radio electronic equipment.

What specific upgrades are included in the 'major modernization'? Demchenko did not go into details. All that's been revealed is that the aircraft's onboard systems will be modernized, and that new types of weapons will be integrated.

However, according to Indian sources, the IAF's plan is to upgrade India's fleet of Su-30MKIs (beginning with a batch of 80 Su-30 MKIs) to 'Super Sukhois', equipping them with a bevy of improvements, including advanced radar and weapons. The contract, estimated to be worth $7-8 billion, would turn the plane into a near fifth-generation aircraft, officials have said.





_The 'Super Sukhoi' program includes a modernized cockpit, advanced avionics, semi-stealth characteristics, longer range 300 km stand-off missiles (featuring an infrared homing system), and can be equipped with the Indo-Russian BrahMos cruise missile. The upgrade also features an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, a powerful early warning and jamming system, as well as new software for the plane's onboard systems. Other subsystems, including a multiple ejector rack (enabling larger payloads) are also proposed.


Last month, Russia's United Aircraft Corporation, the state holding to which Irkut is a subsidiary, offered to integrate engines from the Su-35, Russia's new 4++ generation air superiority fighter, into the modernized Indian Su-30MKI. The Al-41F-1S engines used by the Su-35 far exceed those of the AL-31FP engines currently used by the Indian Su-30, according to UAC CEO Alexander Artyukhov.

In their upgrade plans for the Super Sukhoi, Delhi had publically contemplated switching to non-Russian designed engines to make up for the AL-31's perceived shortcomings. However, equipping the planes with Russia's advanced new engine, as UAC has proposed, would certainly sweeten the deal for the IAF.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201703251051963447-su30mki-modernization-for-india/_

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## YeBeWarned

No offense but IAF need to paint those Su-30MKI ... why South Asians suck at Painting their Fighter jets ?


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## Jugger

Starlord said:


> No offense but IAF need to paint those Su-30MKI ... why South Asians suck at Painting their Fighter jets ?


There are a few painted sukhois in IAF, just Google it.
No matter from which angle you look at this bird, it looks stunning.

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## war&peace

With the help of Russia.. what happened to make in india guys? 
The "rising" super duper power is so much dependent on foreign help that even Fiji Islands are more self reliant.

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## MULUBJA

Super sukhois shall get many technologies fro pakfa. Rightly this will be a plane with near fifth generation technologies.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

MULUBJA said:


> Super sukhois shall get many technologies fro pakfa. Rightly this will be a plane with near fifth generation technologies.


The key items for Super Sukhoi that Russia can provide are the AL-41F engines and a powerful AESA radar. The rest of the upgrades will probably happen with indigenous components - DRDO has already developed high powered jammer and better multi-functional displays exclusively for Su-30MKI.

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## ashok321

*Irkut Corporation, manufacturer of Russia's Sukhoi brand of fighter aircraft, has offered the Indian Air Force a proposal to carry out a 'major modernization' of India's fleet of Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole air superiority fighters. What benefits will the upgrade mean for the Indian Air Force? Sputnik investigates.*

On Thursday, Irkut Corporation President Oleg Demchenko confirmed that the company had made a proposal to the Indian Air Force to modernize its fleet of Su-30MKI fighters. The official said that the modernization would significantly expand the planes' combat capabilities. 

Irkut says that the company can build the necessary infrastructure to overhaul the Su-30s in India itself, while integrating new weapons and upgrading existing weapons and onboard systems. Localization would also improve after-sales service as well, according to officials.

The Su-30MKI, built under license by India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), is India's variant of the Russian Su-30 heavy all-weather, long-range multi-role fighter. The plane, expected to eventually form the backbone of India's Air Force as it retires older planes, was developed in the early 2000s, and began to be assembled in India starting in 2004. The IAF now has a total of 230 Su-30MKIs, with plans to order up to 84 more. 






Negotiations on the modernization of Su-30MKI are continuing with the Indian Defense Ministry, Demchenko said, with the company presently preparing the necessary documentation.

*Irkut officials have long emphasized the Su-30MKI's impressive upgrade potential, particularly its open (block) architecture for its onboard radio electronic equipment.*

What specific upgrades are included in the 'major modernization'? Demchenko did not go into details. All that's been revealed is that the aircraft's onboard systems will be modernized, and that new types of weapons will be integrated. 

*However, according to Indian sources, the IAF's plan is to upgrade India's fleet of Su-30MKIs (beginning with a batch of 80 Su-30 MKIs) to 'Super Sukhois', equipping them with a bevy of improvements, including advanced radar and weapons. The contract, estimated to be worth $7-8 billion, would turn the plane into a near fifth-generation aircraft, officials have said.




The 'Super Sukhoi' program includes a modernized cockpit, advanced avionics, semi-stealth characteristics, longer range 300 km stand-off missiles (featuring an infrared homing system), and can be equipped with the Indo-Russian BrahMos cruise missile. The upgrade also features an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, a powerful early warning and jamming system, as well as new software for the plane's onboard systems. Other subsystems, including a multiple ejector rack (enabling larger payloads) are also proposed.

Click to expand...


Last month, Russia's United Aircraft Corporation, the state holding to which Irkut is a subsidiary, offered to integrate engines from the Su-35, Russia's new 4++ generation air superiority fighter, into the modernized Indian Su-30MKI. The Al-41F-1S engines used by the Su-35 far exceed those of the AL-31FP engines currently used by the Indian Su-30, according to UAC CEO Alexander Artyukhov.



In their upgrade plans for the Super Sukhoi, Delhi had publically contemplated switching to non-Russian designed engines to make up for the AL-31's perceived shortcomings. However, equipping the planes with Russia's advanced new engine, as UAC has proposed, would certainly sweeten the deal for the IAF.
*

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## khanasifm

http://www.defensenews.com/articles...ces-problems-despite-russian-spare-parts-deal


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## #hydra#

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> The key items for Super Sukhoi that Russia can provide are the AL-41F engines and a powerful AESA radar. The rest of the upgrades will probably happen with indigenous components - *DRDO has already developed high powered jammer *and better multi-functional displays exclusively for Su-30MKI.



Do DRDO-IAF having any plans to turn few mki into growler type EW attack platform?


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## Vertiti Scrutator

#hydra# said:


> Do DRDO-IAF having any plans to turn few mki into growler type EW attack platform?


DRDO DARE has already developed the High Band Jammer, which will go on the wing tips of Su-30MKI. (DARE has also developed the SPJ suite for Tejas).
Not sure if all Su-30MKIs will get these pods or only some exclusive ones...


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## MULUBJA

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> The key items for Super Sukhoi that Russia can provide are the AL-41F engines and a powerful AESA radar. The rest of the upgrades will probably happen with indigenous components - DRDO has already developed high powered jammer and better multi-functional displays exclusively for Su-30MKI.



Yes and many other avionics such as tarang Warning receiver etc.


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## wiseone2

MULUBJA said:


> Yes and many other avionics such as tarang Warning receiver etc.



tarang radar warning receiver is part of the base model


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## MULUBJA

wiseone2 said:


> tarang radar warning receiver is part of the base model



Yes, I simply say that many such EW are made in India.

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## wiseone2

MULUBJA said:


> Yes, I simply say that many such EW are made in India.


you are right - it is made in India

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## Hindustani78

During fiscal 2016-17 the company received orders worth 21,000 crore that included 12 Dornier-228 aircraft for the Indian Navy; 32 ALH light helicopters for the Navy and the Coast Guard; and AL-31 FP engines for the fighter Sukhoi-30 MkI.

The year also saw the first flight of two HAL-designed aircraft—basic trainer HTT-40 and the Light Utility Helicopter LUH, besides carriage trials of the indigenous light fighter LCA fixed with a mid-air refuelling probe.

On the aeroengines front, HAL launched the metal cutting for its 1200-kW HTSE 1200 turboshaft engine.

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
11-April, 2017 16:45 IST
*Agreement with Russia for Making Sukhoi Aircraft *

An agreement was made last March between India and a Russian company manufacturing Sukhoi planes, for the supply of spare parts. During Indo-Russia Military-Industrial Conference (March 17-18), 2017 held in New Delhi, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has signed agreements with Russian Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and United Engine Corporation (UEC) for long-term support on after sales service of Su-30 MKI aircraft. 

The Agreement signed by HAL with Russian OEMs are for long-term supply of spares and rendering technical assistance for five years and do not cover any technology transfer. 

However, these agreements will enable HAL to procure the required spares based on the price catalogues directly from the OEMs, authorized by Federal Services on Military Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) of Russian Federation for Su-30 MKI fleet and boost after sales service by reducing lead time in procurement of spares significantly. 

The steps taken by the Government towards creating conditions conducive for the Private industry to take an active role enhancing potential of Small & Medium Enterprises (SMEs) by indigenizing and broadening the Defence R&D base of the country inter-alia include the following:- 

• A new Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), 2016 has been promulgated by the Government to take effect from 01st April, 2016 whereby a new category of procurement ‘Buy {Indian-IDDM (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured)}’ which has been accorded top–most priority for procurement of Capital equipment. Besides this, preference has been accorded to ‘Buy (Indian) ‘ and ‘Buy & Make (Indian)’ categories of capital acquisition over ‘Buy (Global)’ and ‘Buy & Make (Global)’ categories. The ‘Make’ Procedure has been simplified with provisions for funding of 90% of development cost by the Government to Indian industry and reserving projects not exceeding development cost of Rs. 10 Crore (Government funded) and Rs. 3 Crore (Industry funded) for MSMEs. 

• FDI Policy has been revised. FDI up to 49% is allowed through automatic route and beyond 49% under Government approval route wherever it is likely to result in excess to modern technology or for other reasons to be recorded. 

• Indian licensing regime for Indian manufacturers has been liberalized and most of the components/ parts/ sub-systems have been taken out from the list of Defence products requiring industrial license which has resulted in reduction in the entry barriers for new entrants in this sector particularly SMEs. The initial validity of industrial license has been increased from 3 years to 15 years with a provision to further extend it by 3 years on a case to case basis. 

• Issues related to level playing field between Indian and foreign manufacturers and between Public sector & Private sector have also been addressed. These include Exchange Rate Variation (ERV) protection for Indian vendors removing anomalies in Customs/Excise duties etc. 

• Offset guidelines have been made flexible by allowing change of Indian Offset Partners (IOPs) and Offset components even in signed contracts. Foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) are now not required to indicate the details of IOPs and products at the time of signing of contracts. ‘Services’ as an avenue of offset have been re-instated. 

• The process for export clearance has been streamlined and made transparent and online. 

• A total number of 485 lines have been identified for Transfer of Technology (ToT) to support Su-30 MKI fleet. Towards this, 20 Indian vendors have been introduced to the Russian OEMs to find out the feasibility of ToT in the fields desired by Indian vendors. Russian side has been requested to consider permission to identified OEMs to establish Joint Ventures (JVs) or any other means of localization with Indian Private industry partners for manufacture of spare parts through ToT. 

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Dr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Ch. Sukhram Singh Yadav and others in Rajya Sabha today.

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## abc123xyx

> *with plans to order up to 84 more*




thats good !!!??


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## #hydra#

Hope recent doklam. Standoff fuel modernisation of mki fleet in annaggressive mannner, also DRDO must think about transfering few miki in to growler type fighters either by israel or russian or french assistance, its the only way to break chinese SAM and radar fleet.


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## X_Killer

MULUBJA said:


> Yes, I simply say that many such EW are made in India.


Yes, DARE recently co-developed EW suite with the help of EADS.
Which is now being integrated on LCA TEJAS too.



#hydra# said:


> Hope recent doklam. Standoff fuel modernisation of mki fleet in annaggressive mannner, also DRDO must think about transfering few miki in to growler type fighters either by israel or russian or french assistance, its the only way to break chinese SAM and radar fleet.


Just chill, everything is not meant for public announcement....

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## ejaz007

*Russia to Upgrade India's Frontline Fighter Jet Su-30MKI Into Super Sukhoi*
© AP Photo/ AJIT KUMAR
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
11:30 24.10.2017Get short URL
 0 78753
From new sensors to radars, the fleet will see a major change in the cockpit as well. The two-stage modernization program will cost approximately US $6 billion.

NEW DELHI (Sputnik) — Indian Air Force's most formidable fleet of fighter jet Su-30MKI is gearing up for a complete overhaul of weapons and avionics which will lend the aircraft unmatched stealth features. The upgrade is being carried out by Russian agencies in collaboration with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

"We will start the Su-30 MKI upgrade program as soon as possible to bring in new weapons and avionics to make the fleet more potent," T Suvarna Raju, chairman and managing director of HAL said on Monday.

Sources told Sputnik that the entire fleet of 272 fighter jet will be upgraded and equipped with advanced weapon systems such as Brahmos supersonic cruise missile, higher range infrared homing system of R-27P and 100 Kilometers range missile R-77.

READ MORE: Weapon of the Future: Russian-Indian BrahMos Missile to Change Arms Market

"When it comes to technology transfer, the Russians offer everything without any strings attached. The IAF would look forward to continuing its engagement with the Russian aviation industry for the enhancement of Su-30 upgrades so that it could be more potent," Vice Chief Air Marshal S B Deo, Indian Air Force said at a seminar to celebrate 70 years of India-Russia diplomatic relations.

READ MORE: India's MoD Reveals Which Private Companies are to Receive Sukhoi-30MKI Tech

Earlier this year, Russia's Unique Engine Corporation had offered a whole new engine for the fleet.

"We have developed a better successor to the AL-31F engine based on a new design and has been offered to IAF as part of the upgrade package," Alexander Artyukhov, the director of United Engine Corporation, had told the media at Aero India 2017.

The AL-41F-1S is a brand new engine, which produces 18 percent more thrust than its predecessor. 

https://sputniknews.com/military/201710241058487399-russia-su-30mki-sukhoi-upgrade/

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## Hindustani78

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/647347/parrikar-says-rafale-deal-gives.html

The former defence minister said that in *1999*, the Indian Air Force succeeded in pushing out its Pakistani counterpart out of the Kargil conflict zone, because *India had Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles with a range of 30 km on SU30 and MiG 29 aircrafts.*

"Pakistan had only about 20 km range ... due to which they remained away," he said.

However, between 1999 and 2014, Pakistan acquired a capacity of 100 km range whereas India had upgraded its BVR up to 60 km on SU30, he said.

"We were now in danger of being shot down by Pakistani fighters staying 100 km away and not being able to retaliate and Rafale deal took care of this with a missile with a range of 150 km fitted on aircraft," Parrikar said.

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## first77

Su-30MKIs are the pride of Indian Air Force


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## Hindustani78

Chairman of Chennai-headquartered MRF Ltd K.M. Mammen handed over the indigenously developed MRF Aeromuscle Tyre for Air Force’s Sukhoi aircraft.

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## Hindustani78

HAL has been supplying Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters to the IAF. File photo 

“The Request for Information (RFI) for selecting a new fighter aircraft is expected to be issued before the DefExpo in April. It will be an open tender and not limited to single-engine aircraft,” a defence official told _The Hindu_.

*Final choice*
Under the new deal, the IAF is looking for over 100 aircraft, and the official said that whether single- or twin-engine, the aircraft were equally competent and the final choice would depend on the extent of technology transfer and price.

Another reason for widening the tender is for the selection of a competent Indian partner. In anticipation of a single-engine tender, HAL had tied up with prospective Indian partners.

“The Indian SP partner has to be selected by the government through a competitive evaluation. So it is good to have a wider pool of both OEMs [original equipment manufacturer] and Indian partners to choose from,” the official said.

One defence official observed that procuring at least two more squadrons of Fifth generation Fighter jets would make economic, operational and logistical sense as India is spending €2 billion on IAF-specific customisations and 36 is too small a number.

“It makes logical sense and would save us money as the additional aircraft would cost less. But in the current political climate, it is not possible,” he said.

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## Taygibay

Hindustani78 said:


> and the official said that whether single- or twin-engine, the aircraft were equally competent



What the ....?

Not uttered by someone familiar with fighters I take it.

On the air of "Feelings", -Rumours, hmmm hmmm mmm oh rumours..."

Good day to you, Tay.

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## aman_rai0007

Super Su-30MKI Has Taken Shape
All the essential enhancements reqd for transforming the existing Su-30MKI into the Super Su-30MKI are now ready for installation/systems integration on either existing Su-30MKIs or even new-build Su-30MKIs (about 80 of which are required).

Under development since 2009 by the DRDO-owned Defence Avionics Research establishment (DARE) and by the Russia-based JSC V Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design, the avionics enhancements will now have to undergo flight certification trials at the Russia-based State Federal Unitary Enterprise Gromov Flight Research Institute at Zhukovsky.


DARE has sinmce 2009 been developing various elements of the mission avionics suite, which include the following:






SAMTEL-HAL Display Systems has completed developing panoramic AMLCDs for installation on the tandem-seat cockpit.

JSC V Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design has already developed an X-band ASESA-MMR variant of the NO-11M Bars PESA-MMR that currently equips the Su-30MKI.



The X-band AESA-MMR will thus enable the Super Su-30MKI cockpit crew to perform interleaved operations concurrently.

The 101KS-V IRST sensor will be the same as that on the Su-56 MRCA.

The countermeasures dispensers will for the first time be able to launch chaff cartridges supplied by UK-based Chemring. Previously, only flare cartridges could be launched.

Also to be installed will be RAFAEL's BNET-AR SDR, which functions as both a communications radio, as well as an operational tactical data-link.

And finally, the propulsion system too will be enhanced, with the AL-31FP turbofans giving way to the AL-41F-1S from NPO Saturn.


In charge of overall systems integration will be the Russia-based FSUE State Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Systems, or GosNIIAS. Altogether, two flying prototypes will be subjected to about 200 hours of flight-tests, which if begun by this year-end, should be completed by late 2020.

The Super Su-30MKI airframe will also be flight-certified for flying terrain-hugging flight profiles (about 100 metres ASL), thanks to the terrain avoidance mode of operation of the AESA-MMR. Existing Su-30MKIs are not able to fly ultra low-level flight profiles since the NO-11M PESA-MMR does not have the terrain avoidance operating mode.


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## mastaan

Right thread to post this...

IRKUTSK, February 26. /TASS/. The Sukhoi Su-30SM fighter jet will be standardized with the generation 4++ Su-35 fighter by its onboard equipment and armament to cut its cost price and breathe a new life into the plane, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told journalists on Tuesday.

"After completing the work on the Su-30SM upgrade, changing the layout of the onboard radio-electronic equipment to make the Su-35 and the Su-30SM more standardized and thus cut the cost price, and standardizing the airborne weapon systems, this may breathe a new life into the plane," the vice-premier said.

The heavily upgraded Su-30SM plane may open a new niche for Russia in India, he noted.

"Considering that there are about 200 such planes in India [the Su-30MKI as the baseline version of the Su-30SM], an opportunity will probably open for modernizing this fleet to prolong its service life," the vice-premier explained.


Under Russia’s diversification program and amid the declining volume of the defense procurement plan, domestic defense enterprises should shift their focus towards life cycle maintenance and upgrade, Borisov noted.

‘It is necessary to move towards diversification and towards gaining foothold on the civil market. This is what we will have to do under the national project and as part of investment programs of our fuel and energy companies," the vice-premier said.

TASS reported in September 2018 that during their upgrade the Su-30SM fighters would also get AL-41F-1S engines mounted on the Su-35 planes. It was also reported in January 2019 that the trials of the modernized Su-30SM multirole fighter jets were expected to be completed before the end of 2019.

*Su-30SM upgrade*
The Su-30SM is being upgraded by the Irkut Aircraft Corporation and the Sukhoi Design Bureau on the assignment of Russia’s Defense Ministry with the involvement of leading Russian defense enterprises. The upgrade will boost the fighter’s combat capabilities: it will increase the range of detecting and identifying air targets and furnish the plane with new precision weapons to hit air, ground and sea targets at a range of several hundred kilometers.


The Su-30SM is a multirole supermaneuverable heavy fighter equipped with a phased array radar and canard panels. The fighters of this type are furnished with the AL-31FP engine derived from the AL-31F baseline motor of the Su-27 plane. It is distinguished by its thrust vectoring and the increased service life.

The Su-35 is a Russian-made multipurpose generation 4++ super-maneuverable fighter jet equipped with a phased array radar and steerable thrusters. The fighter is equipped with the AL-41F-1S engine, which allows it developing supersonic speed without an afterburner thrust. The experimental AL-41F-1 turbojet engine performs the function of the first-stage powerplant for the Su-57 (PAK FA) fifth-generation fighter.



More:
http://tass.com/defense/1046519


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## polanski

*Sukhoi fighter jet crashes in paddy field Assam, pilots eject safely*
*The Su-30 MKI fighter jet was on a routine training mission when it crashed in the paddy field in the Milanpur area and burst into flames at around 8:30 pm*
By PTI 
Friday, August 9, 2019
_




A Sukhoi fighter jet of the Indian Air Force crashed in a paddy field near Tezpur in Assam on Thursday evening, a defence spokesperson said.

Both pilots of the aircraft ejected safely and have been rescued, defence spokesperson Lt Col Harsh Wardhan Pande said.

One of the pilots suffered injury in his leg, he said.

The Su-30 MKI fighter jet was on a routine training mission when it crashed in the paddy field in the Milanpur area and burst into flames at around 8:30 pm, Lt Col Pande told PTI.

The crash caused no damage to public property, he added.

Local people rushed the two pilots to the Army Base Hospital in Tezpur, he said.

Fire tenders rushed to the spot to bring the flames under control, the fire department said.

A Court of Inquiry has been ordered to ascertain the cause of the accident, official sources said in Delhi._

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## SQ8

The super sukhoi program adds weight to a heavy airframe with an unstable pitch up moment due to weight of TVC mechanics. It creates a pig of an airframe at full internal fuel.

The focus of the program should be better radar, ECM &ECCM, longer ranged and reliable weapons. Because it shows up the size of a business jet on radar its best bet is to stick to outranging it opponents in BVR and rely on its missile truck capacity.

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## polanski

Oscar said:


> The super sukhoi program adds weight to a heavy airframe with an unstable pitch up moment due to weight of TVC mechanics. It creates a pig of an airframe at full internal fuel.
> 
> The focus of the program should be better radar, ECM &ECCM, longer ranged and reliable weapons. Because it shows up the size of a business jet on radar its best bet is to stick to outranging it opponents in BVR and rely on its missile truck capacity.


100% correct plus only God supplies spares parts for Russian military hardware, Russia doesn't. It's symptomatic problems in India, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Vietnam and Algeria.
Look who buys Russian military hardware? Country doesn't have money to maintain military hardware flys low cost Russian aircraft. It costs $121 millions to buy Su-30MKI and cost another $50m/$60m to maintain. It's a hard job for HAL which has poor record of
producing and maintaining aircraft.
This was the main reason Dassault never wanted to be partner of HAL, rather they wanted to be partner of private corporation.


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## Dazzler

The recently crashed aircraft underwent upgrades for Brahmos-A missile. A huge setback for the program.

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## cerberus

Dazzler said:


> The recently crashed aircraft underwent upgrades for Brahmos-A missile. A huge setback for the program.


how Its Engine failure ???


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## Dazzler

cerberus said:


> how Its Engine failure ???



Where was engine mentioned?

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## undercover JIX

cerberus said:


> how Its Engine failure ???


please tell us how it was not....lol


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## Jäger

The Crash could be from multiple factors, pilot error, maintenance issue, airframe needing an overhaul, etc. however it may set the integration of the BrahMos-A to be mounted on the jet, the MKI still has some pretty good potential.
from what I understand according to many Indians is it will feature the AESA radar from Su-57, BVRs (I believe the Astra), new Israeli and Russian AAMs, plus the BrahMos-A
I am not trying to sound one sided, and or offensive, but I think if HAL was to upgrade a few facilities and constantly take care of the logistics there would be fewer crashes in the MKI sector.

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## polanski

I have serious doubt that India will upgrade Sukhoi but India will maintain the fleet. Here is the reason https://exoatmospheric.wordpress.co...sia-with-dud-meet-the-sukhoi-su-30-and-su-35/
The possibility is very high that India will spend the money on Rafale F4.


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## Bratva

*“Each HAL-built Su-30MKI fighter costs around $70.3 million, where as a Russia-supplied fighter costs around $42.15 million,” the senior Air Force official said.*

A senior MoD official said that Russia last month tried to pressure the Indian government to order an additional 72 Su-30MKI fighters with HAL, but the Indian Air Force is reluctant to place new orders in such a large number.

*“The HAL built Su-30MKI fighter is not fully indigenized, only 51 percent is homemade, where the remaining 49 percent of supplies still comes from Russia,” said Bhim Sigh, a retired wing commander with the Indian Air Force.*

*Singh noted that most of the raw materials are sourced from Russia, including titanium blocks, forgings, aluminium and steel plates, as well as low-tech items such as nuts, bolts and screws.

HAL continues to depend on Russia as the original equipment manufacturer for components, raw material, servicing and overhaul of the fighters.


https://www.defensenews.com/industr...s-may-shut-down-toppling-400-local-suppliers/*

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## The Eagle

IAF completed the upgrade or still in process? BVR area of SU-30MKI is already proven useless during last face-off.

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## Ali_Baba

The Super-Sukhoi upgrade never started !!!!!!!!


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## CONNAN

The Eagle said:


> IAF completed the upgrade or still in process? BVR area of SU-30MKI is already proven useless during last face-off.



it never took off from the negotiation table/drawing board officially. According to the report, the ‘Super Sukhoi’ upgrade for the IAF’s fleet of Su-30s is in advanced levels of discussions, with modernisation plans for avionics, engines and weaponry. SO They are still in talks with the ruskies

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## The Eagle

CONNAN said:


> it never took off from the negotiation table/drawing board officially. According to the report, the ‘Super Sukhoi’ upgrade for the IAF’s fleet of Su-30s is in advanced levels of discussions, with modernisation plans for avionics, engines and weaponry. SO They are still in talks with the ruskies



Or IAF is matting Israeli/French Missiles without going deep into an expensive upgrade as such? lastly, IAF was buying BVRs especially and upgrade Sukhoi with Israeli or French Avionics/Weaponry.


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## GURU DUTT

The Eagle said:


> Or IAF is matting Israeli/French Missiles without going deep into an expensive upgrade as such? lastly, IAF was buying BVRs especially and upgrade Sukhoi with Israeli or French Avionics/Weaponry.


well the so called SS UPG as most of PK members beleive it is not like at all  

IAF is and will intigrate what it wants to cause it can as it has money and material to do so as for russia if it wants to keep India as a good client will listen and honour the deal or will have to live on "bread crumbs"

trust me MODS sirji SS UPG deal has not yet took of and its much much more than the PAF deal to buy its whole new air force

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## The Eagle

Intention at most is to have a serious discussion without taking digs or jibes at others. Had it been the case of expenditure & $$, well someone has already proven the worth and world saw it so let's not take a salt rubbing ride that the other side can't stand with. 

Back to the topic for interesting & serious discussion.

Regards,

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## CONNAN

The Eagle said:


> Or IAF is matting Israeli/French Missiles without going deep into an expensive upgrade as such?



264 Su-30MKI airframes will be left by 2025, As Super 30 upgrade specs are still being finalized from Indian side , Ruskies has started integrating AL-41F-1S engines on their Su-30SM fighters. In addition to further thrust, the engines also provide additional electric power needed for Irbis and/or future AESA radars. I think we will follow same path with MKI engines.

For a long time, the only thing we knew about the proposed Su-30MKI upgrades was the name of the program: Sukhoi Super 30. There was no information about the technical specifications, timeline or costs. *Commentators often confuseSukhoi Super 30 with another upgrade program that aims to integrate the Su-30MKI with the air-launched version of the BrahMos anti-ship cruise missile.* * These are in fact two independent and unrelated projects. BrahMos will be installed on only 40-42 planes.* *The program has already reached a fairly advanced phase of flight-testing to ascertain mechanical compatibility of theBrahMos-A air-launched missile with a reinforced Su-30MKI airframe. Live missile launches are due to commence very shortly.* *The Sukhoi Super 30 program, on the other hand, will be rolled out to the entire Indian fleet of Su-30MKI fighters; it has yet to begin in earnest, and up until recently, there was very little information about it in the public domain.*

*Reports in Media*
The Hindu reported that in July 2016 Russia and India held consultations on Sukhoi Super 30, and that they hoped to sign a deal very soon. Another well informed newspaper, The Economic Times, reported that the technical requirements would be finalized by the year’s end, and that the contract would be signed in early 2017. The estimated cost of the program is $7-8 billion. It is therefore clear that the program is still at the very early stages, and that the Sukhoi Super 30 technical specifications have yet to be agreed. One of the central issues in the upcoming discussions will certainly be the use of local suppliers as part of the Indian government’s Make in Indiaindustrial policy.



The Eagle said:


> lastly, IAF was buying BVRs especially and upgrade Sukhoi with Israeli or French Avionics/Weaponry.



Integration of western and Israeli missiles are at discussion levels only 

*some key upgrades*

1 ) Upgrade BARS to Irbis Standard giving peak power from 5 kw to 20 kw and increasing average power of Radar , The backed end is made compatible to add AESA in the future ie no need to replace the back end in the future should IAF demand for AESA
2 ) Upgrade AL-31FP engine to AL-41F1 as in Su-35S ....Russia is already doing that for SU-30SM so we can tail along ( http://tass.com/defense/1046519 ) will give more thrust and power requirement of modernised Radar
3 ) Add DRDO developed MAWS and AESA based EW
4 ) Sensor Fuse all the Avionics/Radar etc , Top Owl HMD to replace Sura-K
5 ) Add Improve IRST as on Su-35 or indiginous options available
6 ) Add all the indigenous weapons to MKI and newer AAM R-77-1, RVV-MD and RVV-BD

http://cast.ru/eng/comments/russia-...r-india-s-ultra-advanced-flanker-upgrade.html

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## Ali_Baba

for 1) So the Radar will remain a PESA with only difference being peak output?


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## CONNAN

Ali_Baba said:


> for 1) So the Radar will remain a PESA with only difference being peak output?



As of now everything is speculation need to wait till they finalize contract then only we will know what will go into the super Su 30 upgrade


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## polanski

Embarrassing Display: Russian Su-35 shot down a Su-30SM2: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/09/26/embarrasing-display-russian-su-35-shot-down-a-su-30sm2/


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## SuvarnaTeja

polanski said:


> Embarrassing Display: Russian Su-35 shot down a Su-30SM2: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/09/26/embarrasing-display-russian-su-35-shot-down-a-su-30sm2/



Friendly fire.


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## MirageBlue

polanski said:


> Embarrassing Display: Russian Su-35 shot down a Su-30SM2: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/09/26/embarrasing-display-russian-su-35-shot-down-a-su-30sm2/



Not the first time it's happened.

PAF F-16 was shot down by another PAF F-16 that fired a Sidewinder. That was fratricide in combat.


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## rockstarIN

CONNAN said:


> it never took off from the negotiation table/drawing board officially. According to the report, the ‘Super Sukhoi’ upgrade for the IAF’s fleet of Su-30s is in advanced levels of discussions, with modernisation plans for avionics, engines and weaponry. SO They are still in talks with the ruskies



So far I heard, IAF waited Meteors but MBDA rejected due to Russian radar. Derby ER was available since 2018 and is getting integrated. Astra -1 already there.


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## rockstarIN

The Eagle said:


> Or IAF is matting Israeli/French Missiles without going deep into an expensive upgrade as such? lastly, IAF was buying BVRs especially and upgrade Sukhoi with Israeli or French Avionics/Weaponry.



Derby-ER is integrated, next gen software refined communication (Rafael Bnet) already done in all MKIs.(It was going on since 2018)


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## PanzerKiel



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## Windjammer

Once termed Raptor of the East, but now only good enough to provide sun shade to the Indians.

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## Tumba

Windjammer said:


> Once termed Raptor of the East, but now only good enough to provide sun shade to the Indians.
> 
> 
> View attachment 712376



SU30MKI carried almost same range R77-1E and Astra MK1 now which negates the AAM range edge F16s had,
And the chances of PAF getting any Aim120D is distant, u shud worry about situation of PAF F16s, JF17 with 10 sqmtr RCS is basically a obsolete fighter. 🤣🤣🤣


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## Windjammer

Tumba said:


> SU30MKI carried almost same range R77-1E and Astra MK1 now which negates the AAM range edge F16s had,
> And the chances of PAF getting any Aim120D is distant, u shud worry about situation of PAF F16s, JF17 with 10 sqmtr RCS is basically a obsolete fighter. 🤣🤣🤣


There were some 20 + F-16s and JF-17s hovering around and over LOC not long ago and guess who got toasted.

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## Maarkhoor

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 705059


Quite a long wish list....

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## HostileInsurgent

Windjammer said:


> There were some 20 + F-16s and JF-17s hovering around and over LOC not long ago and guess who got toasted.


So sad that even when Having 20+ fighters against 6 Indian fighters of which 2 were obsolete MiG-21s, you were unable to bomb the Army Headquarters or do any damage to us.

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## Wikki019

HostileInsurgent said:


> So sad that even when Having 20+ fighters against 6 Indian fighters of which 2 were obsolete MiG-21s, you were unable to bomb the Army Headquarters or do any damage to us.



Indian Army commanders left Brigade HQ ‘minutes before’ PAF bomb fell in compound 27 Feb (theprint.in) 

Want Indo-Pak war? Go to border: Martyred IAF Pilot’s wife urges ‘social media warriors’ (freepressjournal.in) 

Outgunned By Pakistan F-16s, IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles (ndtv.com) 

Not much has changed for IAF a year after it was outgunned by Pakistan (theprint.in) 

Abhinandan’s jet downed because Pakistan had jammed communication: Indian media | Pakistan Today 

want more humiliation?

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## Windjammer

HostileInsurgent said:


> So sad that even when Having 20+ fighters against 6 Indian fighters of which 2 were obsolete MiG-21s, you were unable to bomb the Army Headquarters or do any damage to us.


Let's assume even if this was true then shame for IAF for being one of the largest Air Force in the world, it was caught with pants down.....as for the bombing, the so called 56'' chest ended up with a 56 Feet gaping hole in the back.

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## HostileInsurgent

Windjammer said:


> Let's assume even if this was true then shame for IAF for being one of the largest Air Force in the world, it was caught with pants down.....as for the bombing, the so called 56'' chest ended up with a 56 Feet gaping hole in the back.
> 
> View attachment 712470
> 
> View attachment 712472


Do you even know how big that fake mark is🤣. So you think a bomb fell and wiped out a few trees and the land remained flat? PAF was caught sleeping as we did our job and then ISPR had to do controlled IED explosions to create fake craters.





They really think that a 2000 pound Bunker buster bomb SPICE-2000 will create a cute small crater 😂.

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## Windjammer

HostileInsurgent said:


> Do you even know how big that fake mark is🤣. So you think a bomb fell and wiped out a few trees and the land remained flat? PAF was caught sleeping as we did our job and then ISPR had to do controlled IED explosions to create fake craters.
> View attachment 712477
> 
> 
> They really think that a 2000 pound Bunker buster bomb SPICE-2000 will create a cute small crater 😂.


So you think PAF or Pak army created this google earth image. ...wonder where were Indians when God was distributing brains. 🤣
And according to Indian geniuses, the spice bomb made just small holes in the tin roof and exploded inside without damaging infrastructure and hell they must have been eco friendly bombs for also not causing and smokes or fires. Justice Katju must be rubbing his hands.

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## HostileInsurgent

Windjammer said:


> wonder where were Indians when God was distributing brains. 🤣


Just Google and compare the literacy rate of India and Pakistan, only you guys can do such asmani claims that Google Earth refreshes every day, it requires money to be paid for high res satellite images as you guys don’t even have an Earth Imaging satellite while “illiterate brainless” India has the world’s best and highest resolution Earth imaging satellite CARTOSAT-3 indigenously made.


Windjammer said:


> the spice bomb made just small holes in the tin roof and exploded inside without damaging infrastructure


Ever seen how much warhead does a SPICE-2000 carry or what type of bomb Spice is? 
It is not something which comes in our minds when we think of an explosion. SPICE-2000 carries less than 94 kg of warhead and that too a Thermobaric warhead not High Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP) also known as High Explosive Fragmentation warhead.

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## Mrc

Even pakistani illetrates make more sense than genius above


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## TheDebSahab

I expected that at least on defence forums i wouldn't see retarded endian comments but alas!
You really think that 10m2 crap? Really? Even though that same page at the bottom said it's numbers were inaccurate numbers?
Get a grip.
R-77 is one of the most ridiculed long range a2a missiles. You talking it up, doesn't change a thing.


Tumba said:


> SU30MKI carried almost same range R77-1E and Astra MK1 now which negates the AAM range edge F16s had,
> And the chances of PAF getting any Aim120D is distant, u shud worry about situation of PAF F16s, JF17 with 10 sqmtr RCS is basically a obsolete fighter. [emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

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## Windjammer

HostileInsurgent said:


> Just Google and compare the literacy rate of India and Pakistan, only you guys can do such asmani claims that Google Earth refreshes every day, it requires money to be paid for high res satellite images as you guys don’t even have an Earth Imaging satellite while “illiterate brainless” India has the world’s best and highest resolution Earth imaging satellite CARTOSAT-3 indigenously made.


As i said, if some people had a brain they would be dangerous. It's you who pointed out the ground being flat as if the image was taken next day on the contrary, If you could read, you would have noticed that above images were taken in 2020....a year after the PAF strikes and below is image from this year showing some vegetation has grown where the bomb impacted.






> Ever seen how much warhead does a SPICE-2000 carry or what type of bomb Spice is?
> It is not something which comes in our minds when we think of an explosion. SPICE-2000 carries less than 94 kg of warhead and that too a Thermobaric warhead not High Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP) also known as High Explosive Fragmentation warhead.



Just listen to Christine Fair who you paid heavy Dollars to attend your show boating stage show....she burst Bharti bubble on this and all other nonsense that is being peddled.

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## HostileInsurgent

Windjammer said:


> Just listen to Christine Fair


As I correctly say, a road side beggar saying Hindustan Murd*bad will be made heros by Pakistanis. Seriously this is your arguement?


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## krash

HostileInsurgent said:


> So sad that even when Having 20+ fighters against 6 Indian fighters of which 2 were obsolete MiG-21s, you were unable to bomb the Army Headquarters or do any damage to us.








Sleep tight.

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## SQ8

It would still be folly to underestimate this aircraft and its potential. However, it all reflects back to the Indian warfighter and their “elan” in terms of its employment effectiveness.


HostileInsurgent said:


> As I correctly say, a road side beggar saying Hindustan Murd*bad will be made heros by Pakistanis. Seriously this is your arguement?


That particular beggar was near goddess status until she changed her stance - so really your argument is that Indian sources either have no integrity unless they are constantly positive for India? Or as they put it, you are wholly a bunch of self aggrandizement obsessed hypocrites.


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## MirageBlue

Windjammer said:


> There were some 20 + F-16s and JF-17s hovering around and over LOC not long ago and guess who got toasted.



Nobody..in fact 5 AMRAAMS were dodged for no loss.


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## Windjammer

MirageBlue said:


> Nobody..in fact 5 AMRAAMS were dodged for no loss.


So 5 were fired....and IAF found one......lodged into an SU-30.


HostileInsurgent said:


> As I correctly say, a road side beggar saying Hindustan Murd*bad will be made heros by Pakistanis. Seriously this is your arguement?


The Indian dream of white folks begging on Delhi streets is still some distant away, however Christine Fair was flown in all expenses paid in hope that she will sing to Indian tunes.....seems she was unaware that Indians are very allergic to any truth.


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## MirageBlue

Windjammer said:


> So 5 were fired....and IAF found one......lodged into an SU-30.



nope. That's the Pakistani version of the story. The Indian version was that none of the AMRAAMs found their mark, whereas the AMRAAM fired at the retreating MiG-21 Bison is the one that actually impacted with the ground and was recovered by a local who was even awarded by the local district administratinon.


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## Windjammer

MirageBlue said:


> nope. That's the Pakistani version of the story. The Indian version was that none of the AMRAAMs found their mark, whereas the AMRAAM fired at the retreating MiG-21 Bison is the one that actually impacted with the ground and was recovered by a local who was even awarded by the local district administratinon.


Yea, that's SU-30 called 'Bingo' after just 45 minutes into flight and both Mirages developed Radar issues.
At least have the decency to admit as why else was your PM crying out for Rafales.


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## MirageBlue

Final 2 out of 222 Su-30MKIs license built by HAL have now been completed. 

HAL completes licensed production of final 2 of 222 Su-30MKI fighters for IAF


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## Brad

Turingsage said:


> It was Imran that promised westerners will be migrating to Pakistan for jobs. Pakistan will be lending money to other countries, after he has recovered within a few months hundreds of billions of dollars he is sure exists in swiss accounts. There will free housing and medicine for all Pakistani's within a short time after PTI takes power. He would kill himself before accepting money from the IMF or beg for money from the Arabs.
> That was before he got his begging bowl out, donned a chauffer's cap and uniform so he could be a driver for Arab princes.


Well, PM Imran is a joke anyway. No point quoting him. He also called Sheikh Rasheed a shameless character who he wouldn't keep even as a lowly servant/ slave (and we all know what he ended up employing him as!) Not just Imran - that seems to be the norm in Pakistan leadership circles. And not just Pakistan, to some extent the rest of the subcontinent as well, although Pakistan leadership definitely is way ahead when it comes to dishonesty, sheer incompetence, and utter lack of character.

However, the bigger signal this sends (and which to me is more worrisome) is the indication to the society at large. These leaders emerge from the local population and represent the rot in the larger society - education, character, morals, smarts, all social indicators.

On topic: the Su-30 MKIs are lethal and will be even more so post this upgrade - certainly beyond our current capabilities in the PAF even before the proposed upgrades to the sukhois. Anybody who wants to blow wind up their own rears (as many on this thread seem to be doing) are welcome to do so.

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## Beast

SQ8 said:


> It would still be folly to underestimate this aircraft and its potential.


I think you give too much respect for this aircraft. In China, flanker is favour more for it huge payload, range and twin engine due to China huge airspace. 

Of cos , there are also lots of drawback like huge radar signature, heavy weight and high maintenance. Agility is not it's strongest point.


----------



## Prince Kassad

Detailed Analysis Of Indian Super Sukhoi, A Jet With 5th Gen Capabilities.


Detailed Analysis of Indian Super Sukhoi, Super Sukhoi VS Su-30MKI, Constrains to Program, Know-how Super Sukhoi will be Superior to PLAAF




www.defencexp.com


----------



## baqai

super kai lu ya duper keh lu ... lassun tu lug gaye naam kuch bhi rakh lu


----------



## TNT

Turingsage said:


> It was Imran that promised westerners will be migrating to Pakistan for jobs. Pakistan will be lending money to other countries, after he has recovered within a few months hundreds of billions of dollars he is sure exists in swiss accounts. There will free housing and medicine for all Pakistani's within a short time after PTI takes power. He would kill himself before accepting money from the IMF or beg for money from the Arabs.
> That was before he got his begging bowl out, donned a chauffer's cap and uniform so he could be a driver for Arab princes.



Politicians are known for tall claims but there is a moron next door who promised to clean a river and failed even after 2 election wins.


----------



## Khan vilatey

Blue Marlin said:


> *India, Russia to sign pact on spares for Su 30 fleet, availability could go up to 75%*
> 
> MOSCOW: India and Russia are set to sign a pact for quick delivery of spare parts for the Su 30 MKI fleet that would ensure that the aircraft is available for more combat missions - a key focus area for Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar who has working on reducing the amount of time frontline fighters are grounded due to technical issues.
> 
> The long term spares agreement will provide for an express process for the delivery of spares for the fleet for the next five years. Unlike in the past where each spare part had to be ordered separately with a lengthy process involving license, customs clearance and bank guarantees, the contract will ensure that spare parts start getting manufactured within a month of the air force raising a requirement.
> 
> "A delegation from the Indian defence ministry is expected in the second half of December and we hope to have a positive decision and sign the contract at the soonest," Valery V Chishchevoy, Marketing Director of Sukhoi told ET.
> 
> While in the past, the bureaucratic processes led to a 12 month time period between the time a requirement was raised and the spare part would start to get manufactured, this time will now be cut to 30 days.
> 
> hishchevoy said that the main purpose of the new agreement is to increase the reliability and availability of the Su 30 fleet to 60 percent and higher. The availability rate is the number of aircraft in the entire fleet that are available for combat missions at any given time. At present, just over 50 percent of India's Su 30 fleet - 272 of the fighters have been ordered - are available for combat missions as the rest are either undergoing repairs or grounded due to delay in the supply of spare of spare parts.
> 
> Defence Minister Parrikar has told ET in the past that his aim is to increase this availability rate to 65 percent and above so that the available resources of the air force are used optimally. The Su 30 MKI fleet is the cutting edge of the airforce and would be it largest in terms of numbers of a modern fighter jet.
> 
> There is a possibility that the availability of the fleet could touch the magical figure of 75 percent. Chishchevoy said that the Russian proposal ten years ago when the fleet was young was to appoint Sukhoi as the single supplier responsible for the serviceability of the fleet and 75 percent would be `guaranteed'.
> 
> "Under the new contract, after the receipt of a request from the Indian air force, the spare part wil be delivered to the air force warehouse within 4-12 months, depending on the time it takes to manufacture the part. As of now, 12 months are required for just to start the production, this will reduce to 30 days," Viacheslav Yu Lozan, After Sale Center Director, Sukhoi said.
> 
> 
> India, Russia to sign pact on spares for Su 30 fleet, availability could go up to 75% - The Economic Times
> 
> *Phazotron Zhuk AE AESA Radar*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the parked MiG-35 visting VIPs could get a closer look at the Russian latest AESA radar – the Zhuk-AE AESA, developed by Phazotron NIIR Corporation. India is already operating the BAR phased array radar on its Su-30MKI and has specified AESA as a critical element of the MRCA platform. This radar was developed with modular approach, enabling upgrading existing Zhuk ME/MSE radars, into the phased array equipped MFE/MSFE standard, deployed in MiG-29/Su-27 platforms.
> 
> This 3cm (X-band) radar. The Russians designed their radar to produce linear power output at the range of 6-8 watt, to address available power (provided by the aircraft) and performance (range). The radar uses multiple four channel transceivers modules generating an output of 5watt per channel, installed on a liquid cooled base plate to dissipate the generated heat. If a specific transceiver is overheated, it will be switched off by the radar computer until it cools down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zhuk-AE can detect aerial targets at ranges up to 130 km (head on) in both look-up or look down modes. Look-up tail-on detection range is 50km (40km look down). The radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode, and engage six targets simultaneously in the attack mode.
> 
> The radar provides target designation data for various Russian made missiles such as the R-27R1(R1E0, RVV-AE, R-73E, Kh-31A, Kh-35E and R-27T(TE) missiles. The radar can distinguish and count closely flying targets as well as identifying targets with known signatures. Close maneuvering combat mode optimizes the system's performance to provide effective vertical scans, coverage of the HUD field-of view, and slew to follow the helmet sighting angles. Special optimization is also provided in the helicopter detection mode, detecting and attacking slow-flying and hovering targets. In the air/surface mode the radar supports ranging, mapping and tracking of moving targets, The radar supports real-beam, Doppler beam sharpening and focused synthetic aperture modes, offering different map scale expansion, map 'freezing', and tracking of four targets, including ground or sea-surface moving targets. It has a sea-surface search mode. The Zhuk AE can detect a destroyer size target at a range of 200 km.
> 
> *The modernization program*
> 
> At this stage Irkut is presenting cabin mockup, power plant and the wind box. The wing of this aircraft will be made of carbon fibres. According to Fedorov, India will remain Irkut’s largest and biggest partner in future as well.
> 
> This is the first such in Russia and not many foreign countries produce such aircrafts. Irkut is the largest flier of aircraft and aviation products in the market.
> 
> In response to questions, Fedorov informed that “as far as SU-30MKI is concerned, we have two modernization programs. First is the modernization where the cockpit and all systems would be improved. We are moving in the stage of negotiating technical part.”
> 
> He hopes that during this financial year Irkut will conclude the project. It is very large program which is several billion dollars. The second part would be the modernization of the aircraft together with Brahmos air-to-ground supersonic cruise missile program.
> 
> Now together with Indian Ministry of Defence we are working out how to share work under the modernization program. What will be done in Russia and in India will be finalized. Fedorov hoped, “this year we will come to conclusion.”
> 
> Asked what systems are being proposed, Fedorov declined to give details. But said that we are in negotiation for the upgrading of the entire Sukhoi-30 MKI USD 12 billion project for which the cost has gone up by USD 4 billion.
> 
> Under our signed contract, escalation of prices has been included, which is changing. Next year we plan to finalize the development work. After the development work we hope that two year time will be required to finish.
> 
> Fedorov revealed that the IAF wants that the new upgraded SU-30 MKIs should be called as Super Sukhoi fighter. Irkut is negotiating to incorporate the AESA radar in the Sukhoi-30MKIs.
> 
> Our idea is to modernize the SU-30 MKI to bring it to near 5th generation aircraft capability. At present, we are negotiating the upgradation. He asserted, “we are trying to get SU-30MKI maximally to FGFA.”
> 
> First of all, Irkut is modernizing the cockpit for pilots. This is so designed that it will be easier for the pilots to shift to Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft being developed jointly by India and Russia.
> 
> The upgraded Super Sukhoi would also have advanced stealth characteristics. The Super Sukhoi can also be equipped with other long range missiles like R-27P (AA-10 D) infrared homing extended range version of 120 km distance.
> 
> Besides medium range missiles like R-77 (AA-12) with active radar homing medium range 100 km along with other 80 km medium range missiles can also be added.
> 
> At present, the current fleet of Sukhoi-30MKIs in IAF will be upgraded to Super Sukhoi. He expressed confidence that the first Super Sukhoi aircraft will be ready by 2015. First the conversion of initial fleets inducted in the early years of last decade will be undertaken for conversion to Super Sukhoi.
> 
> As soon as all the testing is completed the older ones will start getting upgraded. But he refused to answer queries on the costs. But said, “total value will be of several billion dollars. It is difficult to tell you about exact price. SU-30 has good market in South East Asia.”


Hey this radar seems pretty crappy compared to the isreali radar on tejas and the French radar on the Rafael. It sounds low powered and not properly cooled as the computer would shutdown the Transmitter receive modules

why is India buying this?

k


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

MirageBlue said:


> Final 2 out of 222 Su-30MKIs license built by HAL have now been completed.
> 
> HAL completes licensed production of final 2 of 222 Su-30MKI fighters for IAF



222 is not a big number considering China is building at least 400 J-16 which are far more advanced than Su-30MKI.





__





J-16. World's most advanced and deadliest two seater Flanker, equipped with AESA, improved IRST, wide angle HUD, glass cockpit.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-16



defence.pk

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## Trango Towers

HostileInsurgent said:


> So sad that even when Having 20+ fighters against 6 Indian fighters of which 2 were obsolete MiG-21s, you were unable to bomb the Army Headquarters or do any damage to us.


Do u feel good little Pakistan flew its tiny airforce all over your army cheifs *** and you did nothing...Good job india


----------



## IndiaIsBad

Trango Towers said:


> Do u feel good little Pakistan flew its tiny airforce all over your army cheifs *** and you did nothing...Good job india


According to ISPR pakistani planes did not cross LOC


----------



## Trango Towers

IndiaIsBad said:


> According to ISPR pakistani planes did not cross LOC


Actually we didn't even shoot abhinandan. He just came for tea. Happy. Now have a glass of the fresh golden juice you are so fond off


----------



## IndiaIsBad

Trango Towers said:


> Actually we didn't even shoot abhinandan. He just came for tea. Happy. Now have a glass of the fresh golden juice you are so fond off


Why don't you believe ISPR?


----------



## Windjammer

IndiaIsBad said:


> According to ISPR pakistani planes did not cross LOC


According to those at the receiving end.....they did.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361045374983675906

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## IndiaIsBad

Windjammer said:


> According to those at the receiving end.....they did.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361045374983675906


So ISPR is lying?


----------



## Windjammer

IndiaIsBad said:


> So ISPR is lying?


Where did ISPR specifically said that PAF never crossed the LOC.


----------



## IndiaIsBad

Windjammer said:


> Where did ISPR specifically said that PAF never crossed the LOC.


Since today morning activity has been ongoing at LoC. This morning PAF engaged six targets across LoC from within Pakistani airspace

From ISPR statement.


----------



## Goenitz

IndiaIsBad said:


> Since today morning activity has been ongoing at LoC. This morning PAF engaged six targets across LoC from within Pakistani airspace
> 
> From ISPR statement.


if bomb crossed, then plane crossing is not needed. but yes, ISPR said that


----------



## IndiaIsBad

Goenitz said:


> if bomb crossed, then plane crossing is not needed. but yes, ISPR said that


Thank you for accepting this. This is my entire point.


----------



## Windjammer

IndiaIsBad said:


> Thank you for accepting this. This is my entire point.


Well you should also address the half a dozen versions the IAF gave regarding the loss of MiG-21.
One was that the aircraft developed a malfunction in Indian air space forcing the pilot, Abhinandan to eject but his parachute drifted into Pakistan not caring to explain how his MiG also ended up in Pakistan....another was that it was hit by SAM. Gospel of truth.


----------



## IndiaIsBad

Windjammer said:


> Well you should also address the half a dozen versions the IAF gave regarding the loss of MiG-21.
> One was that the aircraft developed a malfunction in Indian air space forcing the pilot, Abhinandan to eject but his parachute drifted into Pakistan not caring to explain how his MiG also ended up in Pakistan....another was that it was hit by SAM. Gospel of truth.


Dude i am talking about what ispr said. Why are u having trouble reading? You should get yourself checked. I am worried about you.


----------



## Goenitz

IndiaIsBad said:


> Thank you for accepting this. This is my entire point.


ok. But you have to understand between lines.
Like, when he said 'no f-16 was used' he meant in bombing operation.
Why windy is sceptical, as PAF needed to balance the score. If IAF had ingressed, so PAF must have ingressed. Already, people are angry that why PAF didn't attack India proper when IAF did.


----------



## IndiaIsBad

Goenitz said:


> ok. But you have to understand between lines.
> Like, when he said 'no f-16 was used' he meant in bombing operation.
> Why windy is sceptical, as PAF needed to balance the score. If IAF had ingressed, so PAF must have ingressed. Already, people are angry that why PAF didn't attack India proper when IAF did.


If thats the case, then accept that paf ingressed and that ISPR is a liar. Decide on something. Either paf ingressed, or it didn't.


----------



## Windjammer

IndiaIsBad said:


> Dude i am talking about what ispr said. Why are u having trouble reading? You should get yourself checked. I am worried about you.


Well you need to change your tablets as little breaks aren't doing much for your mindset.


----------



## IndiaIsBad

Windjammer said:


> Well you need to change your tablets as little breaks aren't doing much for your mindset.


See, again you have trouble focusing on ispr statement.


----------



## Goenitz

IndiaIsBad said:


> If thats the case, then accept that paf ingressed and that ISPR is a liar. Decide on something. Either paf ingressed, or it didn't.


@Windjammer so ISPR said 'that remaining in our side of LOC or our airspace?' if he said the former then he means that J&K is Pak airspace.


----------



## Windjammer

IndiaIsBad said:


> See, again you have trouble focusing on ispr statement.


Since you people come here to learn so let me help you, the thread is about 
*Su-30MKI - Super Sukhoi Upgrade Program.*
*So no guessing who has trouble focusing or reading. *

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## IndiaIsBad

Goenitz said:


> @Windjammer so ISPR said 'that remaining in our side of LOC or our airspace?' if he said the former then he means that J&K is Pak airspace.


When did entire j&k become pakistani airspace. Don't you think pakistani airspace is already well defined?


----------



## Trango Towers

@IndiaIsBad enjoy. Your PM lied to yoh for votes. Watch till end and enjoy how an America woman who hates Pakistan turn on you. Looool


----------



## IndiaIsBad

Windjammer said:


> Since you people come here to learn so let me help you, the thread is about
> *Su-30MKI - Super Sukhoi Upgrade Program.*
> *So no guessing who has trouble focusing or reading. *


Oh so when u replying earlier to me, you were talking about mki upgrade? Or did u misread the thread title at that time?

So many mistakes. Really worried for you windy.


Trango Towers said:


> @IndiaIsBad enjoy. Your PM lied to yoh for votes. Watch till end and enjoy how an America woman who hates Pakistan turn on you. Looool


How is that related to ispr statement about crossing loc?


----------



## Goenitz

@Windjammer @IndiaIsBad




He said while remaining in our own airspace "_hudood_". Now politically, even J&K is our land and airspace.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Windjammer

IndiaIsBad said:


> Oh so when u replying earlier to me, you were talking about mki upgrade? Or did u misread the thread title at that time?
> 
> So many mistakes. Really worried for you windy.
> 
> How is that related to ispr statement about crossing loc?


Well you seem to have difficulty learning and keep running in circles , did they...didn't they....so naturally i tried to help you get out of your misery....but some people never learn.


----------



## IndiaIsBad

Goenitz said:


> @Windjammer @IndiaIsBad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He said while remaining in our airspace "_hudood_". Now politically, even J&K is our land and airspace.


if that was his intention, why did he say that bombing was done across loc? Politically, you bombed your own territory right?


Windjammer said:


> Well you seem to have difficulty learning and keep running in circles , did they...didn't they....so naturally i tried to help you get out of your misery....but some people never learn.


But if you wanted to help, why didn't you answer the question, was ISPR lying when they said that bombing was done from within pakistani airspace?

Reactions: Love Love:
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## Windjammer

IndiaIsBad said:


> if that was his intention, why did he say that bombing was done across loc? Politically, you bombed your own territory right?


Yea we bombed the illegal occupiers and opressors.


> But if you wanted to help, why didn't you answer the question, was ISPR lying when they said that bombing was done from within pakistani airspace?



See how troubled you are.....above you are calling it politically own territory and then you are confusing your self again......beside no where he said from within Pakistan.


----------



## IndiaIsBad

Windjammer said:


> Yea we bombed the illegal occupiers and opressors.
> 
> 
> See how troubled you are.....above you are calling it politically own territory and then you are confusing your self again......beside no where he said from within Pakistan.


I have already showed the ispr statement. Seems like you are having trouble reading again. Get well soon windy.

Also i never called it politically own territory. Are u sure you are not going crazy windy?


----------



## Windjammer

IndiaIsBad said:


> I have already showed the ispr statement. Seems like you are having trouble reading again. Get well soon windy.


One absent minded soul you are.....actually another member had to show you the footage since you obviously have reading problem.....besides ISPR also said PAF shot down an SU-30.....hope that goes down well too.


----------



## IndiaIsBad

Windjammer said:


> One absent minded soul you are.....actually another member had to show you the footage since you obviously have reading problem.....besides ISPR also said PAF shot down an SU-30.....hope that goes down well too.


Why are u not addressing the point windy? ISPR statement said that they didn't cross loc. Do you believe ISPR?


----------



## MirageBlue

Khan vilatey said:


> Hey this radar seems pretty crappy compared to the isreali radar on tejas and the French radar on the Rafael. It sounds low powered and not properly cooled as the computer would shutdown the Transmitter receive modules
> 
> why is India buying this?
> 
> k



Why is India buying what?

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## Khan vilatey

MirageBlue said:


> Why is India buying what?


The upgrade for su-30 from Russia, why not from the west?


----------



## MirageBlue

Khan vilatey said:


> The upgrade for su-30 from Russia, why not from the west?



IAF hasn't yet decided on the upgrade details. HAL is offering an indigenous upgrade, which is also under consideration. It includes all indigenous avionics and the big deal is the indigenous Uttam AESA radar variant that will be developed for the Su-30MKI. It'll transform the beast.

That and the addition of Astra Mk1, Mk2 and then Mk3.


IndiaIsBad said:


> Why are u not addressing the point windy? ISPR statement said that they didn't cross loc. Do you believe ISPR?



ISPR statement also said no F-16s were involved and that 2 Indian pilots were captured and in hospital..the "doosra banda" as he was referred to..and the doosra banda promptly vanished after that. 

Pakistanis believe ISPR when it suits them and not when it doesn't.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Khan vilatey

MirageBlue said:


> IAF hasn't yet decided on the upgrade details. HAL is offering an indigenous upgrade, which is also under consideration. It includes all indigenous avionics and the big deal is the indigenous Uttam AESA radar variant that will be developed for the Su-30MKI. It'll transform the beast.
> 
> That and the addition of Astra Mk1, Mk2 and then Mk3.
> 
> 
> ISPR statement also said no F-16s were involved and that 2 Indian pilots were captured and in hospital..the "doosra banda" as he was referred to..and the doosra banda promptly vanished after that.
> 
> Pakistanis believe ISPR when it suits them and not when it doesn't.



oh abhijit already answered why Indian indigenous weapons are not being used. They are extremely inferior





K

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## MirageBlue

Khan vilatey said:


> oh abhijit already answered why Indian indigenous weapons are not being used. They are extremely inferior
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> K



Really?? LMAO! I love how that Hotel Management graduate has got so many Pakistani fans on this forum.  

He's mostly considered a clown in India by people who know anything about defence.

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## Desi_Guy

Khan vilatey said:


> oh abhijit already answered why Indian indigenous weapons are not being used. They are extremely inferior
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> K



Lol he has as much credibility as Mr. Zaid Hamid has in Pakistan.
Nobody takes them seriously......except Pakistan

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## Khan vilatey

MirageBlue said:


> Really?? LMAO! I love how that Hotel Management graduate has got so many Pakistani fans on this forum.
> 
> He's mostly considered a clown in India by people who know anything about defence.





Desi_Guy said:


> Lol he has as much credibility as Mr. Zaid Hamid has in Pakistan.
> Nobody takes them seriously......except Pakistan



yes he is a clown, maj pravin Swami is a clown , col Ajay Shukla is a clown the two Indian army chiefs are clowns , Chankia was a clown , dr Christine fair is a clown, Gandhi ji was a clown......yet modiji, and his band of RSS, BJp cronies like go Swami are angels from the skies and their words are ring true....... here is an explanation about what is happening to India from an Indian parliamentarian.






There was a time when we in Pakistan were Not sure about our abilities to take back territory because we thought india would fight as one due to the facde of democracy. Modi solved this problem for us. So yes
is finally coming of age .

K


----------



## jk007

MirageBlue said:


> IAF hasn't yet decided on the upgrade details. HAL is offering an indigenous upgrade, which is also under consideration. It includes all indigenous avionics and the big deal is the indigenous Uttam AESA radar variant that will be developed for the Su-30MKI. It'll transform the beast.
> 
> That and the addition of Astra Mk1, Mk2 and then Mk3.



Can HAL field good avionics? Does India have good avionics solutions? or will they be imported solutions?

I get an impression that India is focussing / focussed on kinetics - FBW; landing on carrier; opening the full envelope, new and bigger aircraft like MK2; TEDBF; AMCA etc.....but did not focus (yet) on the electronics part.


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376089977893740548


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

Although not much is shared, Air Chief's visit means it is an important step along the way













With Wing Commander Manash Kumar Guha, IAF ASTE TP, flying as WSO


> CAS visited Bengaluru & interacted with test crew of Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment & software engineers of Software Development Institute. He reviewed ongoing projects & flew a Su-30MKI to witness the capability enhancement on successful completion of one such project.


Credits to IAF on Twitter


----------



## denel

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Although not much is shared, Air Chief's visit means it is an important step along the way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With Wing Commander Manash Kumar Guha, IAF ASTE TP, flying as WSO
> 
> Credits to IAF on Twitter


he needs to lose weight


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Although not much is shared, Air Chief's visit means it is an important step along the way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With Wing Commander Manash Kumar Guha, IAF ASTE TP, flying as WSO
> 
> Credits to IAF on Twitter



This plane is so badly serviced. Compare to J-16 which are clean and shiny.


----------



## Ali_Baba

Tai Hai Chen said:


> This plane is so badly serviced. Compare to J-16 which are clean and shiny.



Poor quality workmanship is a quality of the IAF, top to bottom. Suprised you are suprised...

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## MirageBlue

denel said:


> he needs to lose weight



He's a qualified Test Pilot, recently flew a Mirage-2000 solo, the Tejas before that and now the Su-30MKI. I think he's pretty ok for his age, otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to fly these fighters on medical grounds.


----------



## VkdIndian

Some people monitor weight, others the servicing aspects and few others the amazing fact that a serving Chief of the Air Force is fit enough and capable enough to pilot fighters solo.
Depends on which spectrum one wants to highlight.
Salute to this gentleman for hands on approach and leading by example.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## denel

MirageBlue said:


> He's a qualified Test Pilot, recently flew a Mirage-2000 solo, the Tejas before that and now the Su-30MKI. I think he's pretty ok for his age, otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to fly these fighters on medical grounds.


Probably not in daily service. Weight is strictly monitored in terms of physical health.


----------



## MirageBlue

MirageBlue said:


> He's a qualified Test Pilot, recently flew a Mirage-2000 solo, the Tejas before that and now the Su-30MKI. I think he's pretty ok for his age, otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to fly these fighters on medical grounds.





denel said:


> Probably not in daily service. Weight is strictly monitored in terms of physical health.



But if his weight restricted his health in any way he would never be allowed to fly solo or even back seat for that matter. A paunch doesn’t mean he isn’t medically fit otherwise.


----------



## HostileInsurgent

Khan vilatey said:


> oh abhijit already answered why Indian indigenous weapons are not being used. They are extremely inferior
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> K


He also once made a video on 5th Gen Aircrafts, rest is a history. Now he’s the most memed...






Tai Hai Chen said:


> This plane is so badly serviced. Compare to J-16 which are clean and shiny.


Our aircrafts are more than 20 years old, J-16s are just a few years old.


Ali_Baba said:


> Poor quality workmanship is a quality of the IAF, top to bottom. Suprised you are suprised...


Yes obviously you’ll say it.


----------



## Khan vilatey

MirageBlue said:


> Really?? LMAO! I love how that Hotel Management graduate has got so many Pakistani fans on this forum.
> 
> He's mostly considered a clown in India by people who know anything about defence.


Really people like you, who can’t explain why Indians against flying (Iaf) are given aircrafts.....or why Pakistan a country 4 times smaller in terms of size , 1/8 the the size of the population 1/5 th the size in defense spending, or 1/40 the size in GDP can kill Indian soldiers with impunity , allegedly is behind all terrorist acts in India and yet India has done nothing in the last 70+ years to stop Pakistan . According to India Pakistan has started all wars with India. All other powers retaliate India does not............so India is really not a power Pakistan is ....... Pakistan scare you with it’s capable military , a challenge insurmountable for India.

K


HostileInsurgent said:


> He also once made a video on 5th Gen Aircrafts, rest is a history. Now he’s the most memed...
> View attachment 732479
> 
> 
> Our aircrafts are more than 20 years old, J-16s are just a few years old.
> 
> Yes obviously you’ll say it.



Hahahahahha , as I said supa pawa Pakistan deals with India by belief in Allah,

k


----------



## HostileInsurgent

Khan vilatey said:


> Really people like you, who can’t explain why Indians against flying (Iaf) are given aircrafts.....or why Pakistan a country 4 times smaller in terms of size , 1/8 the the size of the population 1/5 th the size in defense spending, or 1/40 the size in GDP can kill Indian soldiers with impunity , allegedly is behind all terrorist acts in India and yet India has done nothing in the last 70+ years to stop Pakistan . According to India Pakistan has started all wars with India. All other powers retaliate India does not............so India is really not a power Pakistan is ....... Pakistan scare you with it’s capable military , a challenge insurmountable for India.
> 
> K
> 
> 
> Hahahahahha , as I said supa pawa Pakistan deals with India by belief in Allah,
> 
> k


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## Khan vilatey

HostileInsurgent said:


> View attachment 732547


See india is so weak ever her allies don’t care for her sovereignty, the us just sailed through so called Indian territory ......

it’s hard when India even lost WION as an ally






K


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## White and Green with M/S

You have also lots of this kind of defense analysts in your media ànd as well as here on PDF don't you


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## HostileInsurgent

Khan vilatey said:


> See india is so weak ever her allies don’t care for her sovereignty, the us just sailed through so called Indian territory ......
> 
> it’s hard when India even lost WION as an ally
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> K


It is not our sovereignty to claim International Waters, passing through EEZ is legal as per International Law, but Indian Law claims that EEZ is India’s territorial waters which are against International Law, Americans did the same with Japan and Korea, so what do you want?

It is a way of protesting.


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## Khan vilatey

HostileInsurgent said:


> It is not our sovereignty to claim International Waters, passing through EEZ is legal as per International Law, but Indian Law claims that EEZ is India’s territorial waters which are against International Law, Americans did the same with Japan and Korea, so what do you want?
> 
> It is a way of protesting.
> View attachment 732638



Yes I agree there is no such thing as Indian law and sovereignty. 

k


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## HostileInsurgent

Khan vilatey said:


> Yes I agree there is no such thing as Indian law and sovereignty.
> 
> k


Ok troll


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## MirageBlue

Proposed upgraded cockpit of the Super Sukhoi by HAL.

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## Lord Of Gondor

AFM has a very detailed report on the Russian Su-30 SM by contributor Alexander Mladenov
Several interesting bits in the report
He calls the Su-30SM as a "Budget derivative of the Su-30MKI"
Cost difference is also massive $42M(Su-30SM) Vs. $70M(Su-30MKI)
Also very interesting for me is that the Radar processor is Israeli for the MKI.
(The MMR for the Tejas also has a similar hybrid hardware)
The bits that I am sure will be of interest to us here is that a SM prototype flew with one AL-41F-1S and one stock AL-31FP, this year.The new engines will mean a great jump in capabilities, if costs are agreeable.


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## johncliu88

The Chinese J-16 has setup a very good example for you. Just follow how the Chinese changed their own version of Su-27 to J-16, then you can upgrade your SU-30MKI's.

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## SuvarnaTeja

johncliu88 said:


> The Chinese J-16 has setup a very good example for you. Just follow how the Chinese changed their own version of Su-27 to J-16, then you can upgrade your SU-30MKI's.



Chinese avionics are superior to Russian while India has to rely on Russia.

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## applesauce

SuvarnaTeja said:


> Chinese avionics are superior to Russian while India has to rely on Russia.



but india has access to the west.
I wonder if india can work out some kind of a franken-MKI deal. like how algeria's Chinese corvettes have a Thales radar on it.

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## Maula Jatt

applesauce said:


> but india has access to the west.
> I wonder if india can work out some kind of a franken-MKI deal. like how algeria's Chinese corvettes have a Thales radar on it.


Man Indian diplomacy was brilliant at one point
Russia, west and to some extent China we're all friendly to nuetral
One has to give respect! 

Now they have to pick and choose


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## johncliu88

applesauce said:


> but india has access to the west.
> I wonder if india can work out some kind of a franken-MKI deal. like how algeria's Chinese corvettes have a Thales radar on it.


The reason why many western countries are willing to sell their advanced stuff to India because they know Indian has no capability to reverse-engineer these equipment. On the other hand, if they sell them to China, it is just one time deal. Then an even better Chinese version will come out very soon with much lower price.

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## SuvarnaTeja

johncliu88 said:


> The reason why many western countries are willing to sell their advanced stuff to India because they know Indian has no capability to reverse-engineer these equipment. On the other hand, if they sell them to China, it is just one time deal. Then an even better Chinese version will come out very soon with much lower price.



Yes. India is a safe country to sell and India does not have technological strength like China to reverse engineer and create our own. We always go back to the Russia or the west for upgrades and next version of the equipment.


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## Lord Of Gondor

A very interesting tid bit on the N011M BARS 
She was able to guide an Astra to hit a 2 m^2 Banshee target drone at 87Km! 




Even with the RDY on the Mirage-2000I and Zhuk-M2E on the Izd 9.20 MiG-29UPG, the Su-30MKI and BARS probably are head and shoulders above the others.
Will be interesting to see the upgrades that will follow
For context here is Vayu-Sena quoting NIIP on the BARS


> For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km. A Bars' earlier variant, fitted with a five-kilowatt transmitter, proved to be capable of detecting Su-27 fighters at a range of over 330 km. The radar can track 20 air targets and engage the 4 most threatening targets simultaneously (this capability was introduced in the Indian RC1 and RC2). These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. For comparison, Phazotron-NIIR’s Zhuk-MS radar has a range of 150-180km against a fighter and over 300km against a warship. "We can count the number of blades in the engine of the aircraft in sight (by the NO11M) and by that determine its type," NIIP says.


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