# Punjab and the Rebellion of 1857



## Tergon18

For a long time I was under the impression that during the rebellion of 1857 in India, Punjab remained totally peaceful and there was no disturbance at all. However, as I read more about this event and especially when I focused on Punjab I realized that I was only partially correct. It is true that Punjab was mostly peaceful and cooperating with the British Raj. But there was widespread disaffection among the units of Bengal Army, which led to many tragic events. Even among the civilians some fierce resistance was shown at a few places.

I shall start from the civilian resistance to the British Raj. Here I found only two incidents. One in the Gogera district led by Rai Ahmad Khan Kharal, and the second to a more limited scale in the Murree hills. I already have written a post on the same blog on Rai Ahmad Khan Kharal. While searching about Rai Ahmad Kharal I found many little pieces of information here and there on the net.But the best was a research paper by Turab ul Hassan Sargana, titled Gugera Movement 1857: Nature, Extent and Significance.







* Tomb of Rai Ahmad Khan Kharal (31° 04' 28.50" N, 73° 20' 01.70" E)*

*Gugera Movement 1857: Nature, Extent and Significance*

*Turab-ul-Hassan Sargana*

The Gugera uprising was the most widespread and serious rising within the borders of the Punjab and or a while threatened the British fortunes in that quarter. It quickly engulfed the important stations of Kamalia, Pindi Sheikh Musa, Syedwala, Harrappa, Chichawatni, Tulumba, Serai Sidhu, Shorkot, Jamlera, Sahooka, Kaboola and Pakpattan. The numerical strength of the freedom-fighters can be noted by report of R.C. Temple, secretary to Chief Commissioner, according to which an official of the postal department informed the Chief Commissioner that the numbers of the freedom fighters amounted to exactly 125000 men. Elphinstone the officiating Deputy Commissioner of Gugera confirmed it by saying that all the native accounts agreed that the whole country as far as Tulumba, in the Multan District was in open insurrection. While the Census Report of 1855 tells us that the population of Gugera District was 3,08,020 and of the Multan division was 9,71,175. By this one can well imagine what a large number of people rose against the British in this area. Popularity of this movement can also be judged by this that the Muslim women were also sighted in action, “moving along the tops of the houses with their skirts stretched out, so as to cover the matchlock-men as they crept about from point to point.

The significance of Gugera uprising can be seen in the words of Cave-Browne who maintained that the crisis during these days of September until the fall of Delhi was even greater and of more consequences for British survival than that marking the months of May and June.

Gugera, now a town in District Okara in the Punjab Province, was a district of Multan Division in 1857. It was given the status of district by the British East India Company Government in 1852, three years after the annexation of the Punjab. It was situated on the south bank of the River Ravi and upon the old military road from Lahore to Multan, 40 kilometers to the North-East of the present station Sahiwal1 At Gugera, local tribes, Kharrals, Wuttoos, Fatianas, Qureshis, Kathias, Wehniwals Mardanas, Tarhanas and Baghelas under the leadership of Ahmad Khan Kharral rose up against the British on September 17, 1857 but before this three important events had been happened which set the mind of the tribes to rise.

First, on July 8, 1857, at the village of Lukhoke in the Pakpattan tehsil the people of Joiya tribe refused to pay the land revenue to the British authorities. The British attacked the village, and a large number of people were fined and imprisoned in the Gugera jail.Secondly, on July 26, 1857 the prisoners in the Gugera jail made a desperate attempt to affect their escape during the night. In this attempt, 17 prisoners were shot in the fray, 33 wounded and 18 succeeded to escape. According to native accounts, about 145 prisoners were killed and it is also said that more than 100 British or native soldiers were also killed in this encounter. Another important event was that at the end of May, 1857 news of the uprising of the Hurriana Light Infantry and of the Irregular Cavalry stationed there reached Gugera. The British authorities of District Gugera decided to send a force there. According to folklore, at this occasion, Berkley, the Extra Assistant Commissioner of Gugera, asked Ahmad Khan Kharral to provide men and horses for this campaign but Kharral refused to do so. Here is a beautiful dialogue between Berkley and Ahmad Khan in this song.

The Englishman Berkley says, "Provide me mares, Rai Ahmad and I will secure a citation for you from London". *Rai Ahmad says, “No one in his life ever shares wives, land and mares with others”.* On the night of September 16, 1857, Sarfraz Khan Kharral of Kamalia, a rival of Ahmad Khan Kharral informed N.W. Elphinstone officiating Deputy Commissioner Gugera about the intended uprising of the tribes. As soon as Elphinstone got this information, he immediately sent Berkley with 20 horsemen to arrest Ahmad Khan Kharral but he failed to do so. Berkley burnt the town of Jhamra and returned with 20 prisoners and 700 cattle. On 20th September Elphinstone dispatched Lieutenant Chichester and Lieutenant Mitchel to attack the freedom-fighters who might have been assembled at Pindi Sheikh Musa and its suburbs. They found no freedom-fighters there, burnt the town of Pindi Shiekh Musa and returned. On 21st September, the British attacked Ahmad Khan Kharral and his companions at a place
Gishkowree. In this battle 14 or 15 horsemen of the British were killed but they succeeded to martyr Ahmad Khan Kharral and Sarung, the Chief of the Bege Ke Kharrals. Although British had to face severe loss in this expedition but it was an irreparable disaster to the freedom-fighters. The martyrdom of Ahmad Khan Kharral created a feeling of revenge in the people of whole area. On 22nd September, the very next day of martyrdom of Ahmad Khan Kharral, the men of Fatiana, Tarhana and Mardana tribes led by their chiefs Bahawal, Salabat and Walidad respectively assesmbled and attacked Berkley and his men. Berkley was killed along with 50 men of his detachment. According to British records as well as native accounts, the first fatal blow was struck by Murad Fatiana. In October, the British gathered their all forces at Gugera. Reinforcements reached there from Lahore, Multan, Gujranwala, Jhang and Leiah. Commissioner Lahore A.A. Roberts and Commissioner Multan Major G.W. Hamilton arrived Gugera with their allies. Among them prominent were Makhdoom Shah Mahmud Qureshi of Multan Mustafa Khan Khakwani, Sadik Muhammad Khan Badozai, the Chiefs of the Lungrial clan, Bahawal and Machhia, Sarfraz Khan Kharral of Kamalia, Ziadat Khan Daha of Khanewal and his son, Dhara Sing Nakai of Gugera, Khair-ud-Din Khan of Kasur, Bawa Khem Singh Bedi of Rawalpindi, Sardar Nihal Singh of Rawalpindi, Jeevay Khan Araeen of Village Akbar (now in district Sahiwal) and Bawa Hardit Singh of Rawalpindi.

On the contrary, the freedom-fighters could not get help from anywhere. Delhi had been re-captured by the British on September 20, 1857. As the leaders of the freedom-fighters were fully conscious that their warfare could not equal that of the government, therefore, they requested Nawab of Bahawalpur to come forward but he refused to help them. Only due to their enthusiasm, bravery and power of faith they succeeded to continue their struggle even till January 1858. At last some of them surrendered and the Gugera uprising was crushed by the British. According to native accounts hundreds were blown from canons and a number of people were imprisoned for life. A countless number of people were sent to Andaman Islands popularly known as “Kala Pani” or Black Water. Among them who were sent to Andaman or Kala Pani, prominent were Bahawal Fatiana, Murad Fatiana, Mokha Wehniwal, Majhi Bushaira Kharral, Lal son of Ghazi Kathia, Muhammad Yar Mardana, Rehmat Khan, Kada Mardana, Walidad Mardana, Chief of his tribe and Nadir Shah Qureshi of Pindi Sheikh Musa.

The Gugera Movement was the most widespread and serious uprising within the borders of the Punjab, and for a while, threatened the foundation of the British rule in the region. It started from Jhamra and Gugera and quickly engulfed the important stations of Kamalia, Pindi Sheikh Musa, Saiyyidwala, Harappa, Chichawatni, Tulumba, Serai Sidhu, Shorkot, Jamlaira, Sahuka, Kabula and Pakpattan. The strength of the freedomfighters can be estimated from the report of R.C. Temple, Secretary to the Chief Commissioner, according to which a Muslim official of the postal department informed the Chief Commissioner that the numbers of the freedom-fighters amounted to exactly 1,25,000 men. The statement of Elphinstone, the Officiating Deputy Commissioner of Gugera, also confirms the strength of the freedom-fighters that the whole country as far as Tulumba, in District Multan, was in open insurrection. While the Census Report of 1855 tells us that the population of Gugera District was 3,08,020 and of the Multan division was 9,71,175. By this one can imagine that what a large number of people rose against the British in this area. The popularity of this Movement can be judged by the fact that even the Muslim women were also sighted in action, “moving along the tops of the houses with their skirts stretched out, so as to cover the matchlockmen as they crept about from point to point”. Reinforcements for the British were rushed from all possible quarters, i.e. Jhang, Leiah, and Gujranwala and repeatedly from Lahore and Multan. Still the freedom-fighters did not give up, and even the fall of Delhi failed to discourage them. Twice the freedom-fighters succeeded in winning over the control of the town of Kamalia, but the British again occupied it. Leaders of the Gugera Movement were in close contact with the freedom-fighters of Delhi and Hansi, and on September 17, 1857, when the fierce and heroic defence of Delhi reached its peak, the Movement began. This critical situation is described by Cave-Browne, who testifies the deep anxiety among the British officers in Lahore after their communication with Multan had been cut off, and news came in that “the whole of the Gugera District was in arms”. John Lawrence was at Lahore at that time. He fully appreciated the momentousness of the danger. In the words of Cave-Browne, “[t]hough he had risked everything for Delhi, and Delhi had now fallen, all might still be lost if that spirit of unrest which was astir throughout the Punjab were once allowed to gain head”.

The Provincial Government deliberately underrated the Gugera Movement by asserting that it was not dangerous but difficult to be suppressed. On the contrary, Cave-Browne maintained that the crisis during these days of September until the fall of Delhi was even greater and of more consequences for the British survival than that marking the months of May and June. Ahmad Khan Kharral, the mastermind behind this Movement, was reported to have been in constant communication with the freedom-fighters of Delhi and Hansi, and with the Mughal Emperor himself. He publically renounced his allegiance to the British and claimed to fight under the orders of Emperor Bahadur Shah. Other Muslim Chiefs who participated in the Gugera Movement included several leaders, like Nadir Shah Qureshi of Pindi Sheikh Musa, Walidad of Mardana Clan, Salabat of Tarhana Clan, Mokha of Vehniwal Clan, Bahlak Wuttoo of Wuttoo Clan, Mehr Bahawal and Mehr Murad of Fatiana Clan, and Muhamand Khan of Kathia Clan.

The British authors have tried to devalue this movement, and defame its leaders by calling them cattle-lifters and thieves. However, the historical record does not verify this assertion. Even the opinion of some British officers contradicts it. Major F.C. Marsden, Deputy Commissioner Gugera, reported, “When I reached Gugera, I found it had been attacked by the powerful clan of Kharral under their old chief, Ahmad Khan, a wealthy, determined old patriarch”. According to Montgomery Gazetteer, Ahmad Khan Kharral was an exceptional leader with qualities of head and heart. He was courageous and bold and it was he who had roused the people. Even after a century and a half, he is remembered as a hero in the folklore and folk songs. A folk song or _dhola _testifies the above-mentioned statement of Marsden as such: He was chief of all clans. He had been resisting previous government. Ranjit Singh avoided confrontation with him and used to bypass his areas. Similarly, about another leader of the Gugera Movement, Mehr Bahawal Fatiana, Cave-Browne wrote that he was thegreatest man among them, the bravest and most influential. Another leader, Murad Fatiana has been tributed in a song in this way: There is no chief like Murad, although a number of people wear white dress. The people of Ravi remember him and wish that if once Murad, son of Dalail, could come back.

The people of the Punjab still have great respect and devotion for the leaders of resistance, and consider them as their hero. The objective of the leaders of the Gugera Movement can be clearly assessed from the letters written by these leaders. For instance, Bahawal Fatiana, Salabat Tarhana and Sarung Vehniwal wrote a letter to Woordie-Major Mir Barkat Ali of 1st Irregular Cavalry, requesting him to leave the British army and help them against the British. They offered him the leadership of their resistance movement, and they were ready to afford all expanses for the feeding all the men and horses, which he might bring along. They wanted to get his support for the independence of their country from the yoke of the British. Similarly, some leaders of the Gugera Movement named Muhamand Kathia, Nathu Kathia, Murad Kathia, Amir Kathia and Lal Kathia, Bahawal Fatiana and Salabat Tarhana wrote a letter to the Nawab of Bahawalpur, in which they wrote: 

"Whereas intelligence was received to the effect that the King of Delhi was making war against the English Government for the sake of establishing Muslim regime under the Divine command, on hearing this happy news, all the _Zamindars _of this country rose up for struggle against the English authorities of the Multan Division. Accordingly, we are fighting against them upto the present time…if you are firm in the religion of Islam, we have about 18000 fighting men ready to serve wherever your highness may require them…we beg that, for the sake of God and his Prophet, your highness may lend your hand and assist us, for which you will be rewarded at the Day of Judgement".

If we analyze these letters impartially, the correct picture of the designs of the leaders of the Gugera Movement becomes clear. They were not thieves or cattle-lifters, rather they were rich and influential people of their areas, and the people had great love and respect for them. For example the Superintendent of Gugera jail had great devotion for Ahmad Khan, and allowed him to visit the jail inspite of strict restrictions by the British authorities. Similarly, the guard refused to give boats to Berkeley, Extra Assistant Commissioner, since Ahmad Khan had ordered him not to do so, and he considered Ahmad Khan as the king of the area. The above-mentioned letter of the freedom-fighters also reveals that they tried to invoke religious symbols for mustering the support of the Nawab of Bahawalpur. For them, revival of Islam meant restoration of political authority of the Muslims. In other words, for them revival or protection of Islam was not possible without establishing Muslim political authority. It was a pre-requisite for their desired protection of Islam. So they were ready to sacrifice their lives as well as their property for this purpose. In the end we may conclude that the leaders of the Gugera Movement were neither thieves nor cattle-lifters, they were popular leaders of the people in their respective areas in the Punjab, who led the resistance movement at various places in the province. They were neither rulers, nor sepoys, but were freedom-fighters. They had no personal grievances against the British. Neither their _jagirs _were confiscated, nor their pensions stopped. They fought for a noble cause which was to eliminate foreign rule from their homeland.

From
http://pakgeotagging.blogspot.com/2015/04/punjab-rebellion-of-1857.html?m=1

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## Tergon18

@Kaptaan @Max @Mentee @Maira La @DESERT FIGHTER @save_ghenda @Zibago

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## lastofthepatriots

That was an awesome read.

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## Mentee

Indeed our forefathers made us proud , they had the same royal aspirations regarding their motherland like some king could imagine

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## Mentee

@The Sandman @Moonlight @Max @B+ Dracula @Parul @BDforever @Areesh @MastanKhan @django

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## Kabira

Tergon18 said:


> Reinforcements reached there from Lahore, Multan, Gujranwala, Jhang and Leiah. Commissioner Lahore A.A. Roberts and Commissioner Multan Major G.W. Hamilton arrived Gugera with their allies. Among them prominent were Makhdoom Shah Mahmud Qureshi of Multan Mustafa Khan Khakwani, Sadik Muhammad Khan Badozai, the Chiefs of the Lungrial clan, Bahawal and Machhia, Sarfraz Khan Kharral of Kamalia, Ziadat Khan Daha of Khanewal and his son, Dhara Sing Nakai of Gugera, Khair-ud-Din Khan of Kasur, Bawa Khem Singh Bedi of Rawalpindi, Sardar Nihal Singh of Rawalpindi, Jeevay Khan Araeen of Village Akbar (now in district Sahiwal) and Bawa Hardit Singh of Rawalpindi.



Name of traitors.  I'm sure these people were compensated by British for their loyalty and their descendants are probably now politicians.

"Makhdoom Shah Mahmud Qureshi Multan"

This name sound familiar.

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## wiseone2

Tergon18 said:


> For a long time I was under the impression that during the rebellion of 1857 in India, Punjab remained totally peaceful and there was no disturbance at all. However, as I read more about this event and especially when I focused on Punjab I realized that I was only partially correct. It is true that Punjab was mostly peaceful and cooperating with the British Raj. But there was widespread disaffection among the units of Bengal Army, which led to many tragic events. Even among the civilians some fierce resistance was shown at a few places.
> 
> I shall start from the civilian resistance to the British Raj. Here I found only two incidents. One in the Gogera district led by Rai Ahmad Khan Kharal, and the second to a more limited scale in the Murree hills. I already have written a post on the same blog on Rai Ahmad Khan Kharal. While searching about Rai Ahmad Kharal I found many little pieces of information here and there on the net.But the best was a research paper by Turab ul Hassan Sargana, titled Gugera Movement 1857: Nature, Extent and Significance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Tomb of Rai Ahmad Khan Kharal (31° 04' 28.50" N, 73° 20' 01.70" E)*
> 
> *Gugera Movement 1857: Nature, Extent and Significance*
> 
> *Turab-ul-Hassan Sargana*
> 
> The Gugera uprising was the most widespread and serious rising within the borders of the Punjab and or a while threatened the British fortunes in that quarter. It quickly engulfed the important stations of Kamalia, Pindi Sheikh Musa, Syedwala, Harrappa, Chichawatni, Tulumba, Serai Sidhu, Shorkot, Jamlera, Sahooka, Kaboola and Pakpattan. The numerical strength of the freedom-fighters can be noted by report of R.C. Temple, secretary to Chief Commissioner, according to which an official of the postal department informed the Chief Commissioner that the numbers of the freedom fighters amounted to exactly 125000 men. Elphinstone the officiating Deputy Commissioner of Gugera confirmed it by saying that all the native accounts agreed that the whole country as far as Tulumba, in the Multan District was in open insurrection. While the Census Report of 1855 tells us that the population of Gugera District was 3,08,020 and of the Multan division was 9,71,175. By this one can well imagine what a large number of people rose against the British in this area. Popularity of this movement can also be judged by this that the Muslim women were also sighted in action, “moving along the tops of the houses with their skirts stretched out, so as to cover the matchlock-men as they crept about from point to point.
> 
> The significance of Gugera uprising can be seen in the words of Cave-Browne who maintained that the crisis during these days of September until the fall of Delhi was even greater and of more consequences for British survival than that marking the months of May and June.
> 
> Gugera, now a town in District Okara in the Punjab Province, was a district of Multan Division in 1857. It was given the status of district by the British East India Company Government in 1852, three years after the annexation of the Punjab. It was situated on the south bank of the River Ravi and upon the old military road from Lahore to Multan, 40 kilometers to the North-East of the present station Sahiwal1 At Gugera, local tribes, Kharrals, Wuttoos, Fatianas, Qureshis, Kathias, Wehniwals Mardanas, Tarhanas and Baghelas under the leadership of Ahmad Khan Kharral rose up against the British on September 17, 1857 but before this three important events had been happened which set the mind of the tribes to rise.
> 
> First, on July 8, 1857, at the village of Lukhoke in the Pakpattan tehsil the people of Joiya tribe refused to pay the land revenue to the British authorities. The British attacked the village, and a large number of people were fined and imprisoned in the Gugera jail.Secondly, on July 26, 1857 the prisoners in the Gugera jail made a desperate attempt to affect their escape during the night. In this attempt, 17 prisoners were shot in the fray, 33 wounded and 18 succeeded to escape. According to native accounts, about 145 prisoners were killed and it is also said that more than 100 British or native soldiers were also killed in this encounter. Another important event was that at the end of May, 1857 news of the uprising of the Hurriana Light Infantry and of the Irregular Cavalry stationed there reached Gugera. The British authorities of District Gugera decided to send a force there. According to folklore, at this occasion, Berkley, the Extra Assistant Commissioner of Gugera, asked Ahmad Khan Kharral to provide men and horses for this campaign but Kharral refused to do so. Here is a beautiful dialogue between Berkley and Ahmad Khan in this song.
> 
> The Englishman Berkley says, "Provide me mares, Rai Ahmad and I will secure a citation for you from London". *Rai Ahmad says, “No one in his life ever shares wives, land and mares with others”.* On the night of September 16, 1857, Sarfraz Khan Kharral of Kamalia, a rival of Ahmad Khan Kharral informed N.W. Elphinstone officiating Deputy Commissioner Gugera about the intended uprising of the tribes. As soon as Elphinstone got this information, he immediately sent Berkley with 20 horsemen to arrest Ahmad Khan Kharral but he failed to do so. Berkley burnt the town of Jhamra and returned with 20 prisoners and 700 cattle. On 20th September Elphinstone dispatched Lieutenant Chichester and Lieutenant Mitchel to attack the freedom-fighters who might have been assembled at Pindi Sheikh Musa and its suburbs. They found no freedom-fighters there, burnt the town of Pindi Shiekh Musa and returned. On 21st September, the British attacked Ahmad Khan Kharral and his companions at a place
> Gishkowree. In this battle 14 or 15 horsemen of the British were killed but they succeeded to martyr Ahmad Khan Kharral and Sarung, the Chief of the Bege Ke Kharrals. Although British had to face severe loss in this expedition but it was an irreparable disaster to the freedom-fighters. The martyrdom of Ahmad Khan Kharral created a feeling of revenge in the people of whole area. On 22nd September, the very next day of martyrdom of Ahmad Khan Kharral, the men of Fatiana, Tarhana and Mardana tribes led by their chiefs Bahawal, Salabat and Walidad respectively assesmbled and attacked Berkley and his men. Berkley was killed along with 50 men of his detachment. According to British records as well as native accounts, the first fatal blow was struck by Murad Fatiana. In October, the British gathered their all forces at Gugera. Reinforcements reached there from Lahore, Multan, Gujranwala, Jhang and Leiah. Commissioner Lahore A.A. Roberts and Commissioner Multan Major G.W. Hamilton arrived Gugera with their allies. Among them prominent were Makhdoom Shah Mahmud Qureshi of Multan Mustafa Khan Khakwani, Sadik Muhammad Khan Badozai, the Chiefs of the Lungrial clan, Bahawal and Machhia, Sarfraz Khan Kharral of Kamalia, Ziadat Khan Daha of Khanewal and his son, Dhara Sing Nakai of Gugera, Khair-ud-Din Khan of Kasur, Bawa Khem Singh Bedi of Rawalpindi, Sardar Nihal Singh of Rawalpindi, Jeevay Khan Araeen of Village Akbar (now in district Sahiwal) and Bawa Hardit Singh of Rawalpindi.
> 
> On the contrary, the freedom-fighters could not get help from anywhere. Delhi had been re-captured by the British on September 20, 1857. As the leaders of the freedom-fighters were fully conscious that their warfare could not equal that of the government, therefore, they requested Nawab of Bahawalpur to come forward but he refused to help them. Only due to their enthusiasm, bravery and power of faith they succeeded to continue their struggle even till January 1858. At last some of them surrendered and the Gugera uprising was crushed by the British. According to native accounts hundreds were blown from canons and a number of people were imprisoned for life. A countless number of people were sent to Andaman Islands popularly known as “Kala Pani” or Black Water. Among them who were sent to Andaman or Kala Pani, prominent were Bahawal Fatiana, Murad Fatiana, Mokha Wehniwal, Majhi Bushaira Kharral, Lal son of Ghazi Kathia, Muhammad Yar Mardana, Rehmat Khan, Kada Mardana, Walidad Mardana, Chief of his tribe and Nadir Shah Qureshi of Pindi Sheikh Musa.
> 
> The Gugera Movement was the most widespread and serious uprising within the borders of the Punjab, and for a while, threatened the foundation of the British rule in the region. It started from Jhamra and Gugera and quickly engulfed the important stations of Kamalia, Pindi Sheikh Musa, Saiyyidwala, Harappa, Chichawatni, Tulumba, Serai Sidhu, Shorkot, Jamlaira, Sahuka, Kabula and Pakpattan. The strength of the freedomfighters can be estimated from the report of R.C. Temple, Secretary to the Chief Commissioner, according to which a Muslim official of the postal department informed the Chief Commissioner that the numbers of the freedom-fighters amounted to exactly 1,25,000 men. The statement of Elphinstone, the Officiating Deputy Commissioner of Gugera, also confirms the strength of the freedom-fighters that the whole country as far as Tulumba, in District Multan, was in open insurrection. While the Census Report of 1855 tells us that the population of Gugera District was 3,08,020 and of the Multan division was 9,71,175. By this one can imagine that what a large number of people rose against the British in this area. The popularity of this Movement can be judged by the fact that even the Muslim women were also sighted in action, “moving along the tops of the houses with their skirts stretched out, so as to cover the matchlockmen as they crept about from point to point”. Reinforcements for the British were rushed from all possible quarters, i.e. Jhang, Leiah, and Gujranwala and repeatedly from Lahore and Multan. Still the freedom-fighters did not give up, and even the fall of Delhi failed to discourage them. Twice the freedom-fighters succeeded in winning over the control of the town of Kamalia, but the British again occupied it. Leaders of the Gugera Movement were in close contact with the freedom-fighters of Delhi and Hansi, and on September 17, 1857, when the fierce and heroic defence of Delhi reached its peak, the Movement began. This critical situation is described by Cave-Browne, who testifies the deep anxiety among the British officers in Lahore after their communication with Multan had been cut off, and news came in that “the whole of the Gugera District was in arms”. John Lawrence was at Lahore at that time. He fully appreciated the momentousness of the danger. In the words of Cave-Browne, “[t]hough he had risked everything for Delhi, and Delhi had now fallen, all might still be lost if that spirit of unrest which was astir throughout the Punjab were once allowed to gain head”.
> 
> The Provincial Government deliberately underrated the Gugera Movement by asserting that it was not dangerous but difficult to be suppressed. On the contrary, Cave-Browne maintained that the crisis during these days of September until the fall of Delhi was even greater and of more consequences for the British survival than that marking the months of May and June. Ahmad Khan Kharral, the mastermind behind this Movement, was reported to have been in constant communication with the freedom-fighters of Delhi and Hansi, and with the Mughal Emperor himself. He publically renounced his allegiance to the British and claimed to fight under the orders of Emperor Bahadur Shah. Other Muslim Chiefs who participated in the Gugera Movement included several leaders, like Nadir Shah Qureshi of Pindi Sheikh Musa, Walidad of Mardana Clan, Salabat of Tarhana Clan, Mokha of Vehniwal Clan, Bahlak Wuttoo of Wuttoo Clan, Mehr Bahawal and Mehr Murad of Fatiana Clan, and Muhamand Khan of Kathia Clan.
> 
> The British authors have tried to devalue this movement, and defame its leaders by calling them cattle-lifters and thieves. However, the historical record does not verify this assertion. Even the opinion of some British officers contradicts it. Major F.C. Marsden, Deputy Commissioner Gugera, reported, “When I reached Gugera, I found it had been attacked by the powerful clan of Kharral under their old chief, Ahmad Khan, a wealthy, determined old patriarch”. According to Montgomery Gazetteer, Ahmad Khan Kharral was an exceptional leader with qualities of head and heart. He was courageous and bold and it was he who had roused the people. Even after a century and a half, he is remembered as a hero in the folklore and folk songs. A folk song or _dhola _testifies the above-mentioned statement of Marsden as such: He was chief of all clans. He had been resisting previous government. Ranjit Singh avoided confrontation with him and used to bypass his areas. Similarly, about another leader of the Gugera Movement, Mehr Bahawal Fatiana, Cave-Browne wrote that he was thegreatest man among them, the bravest and most influential. Another leader, Murad Fatiana has been tributed in a song in this way: There is no chief like Murad, although a number of people wear white dress. The people of Ravi remember him and wish that if once Murad, son of Dalail, could come back.
> 
> The people of the Punjab still have great respect and devotion for the leaders of resistance, and consider them as their hero. The objective of the leaders of the Gugera Movement can be clearly assessed from the letters written by these leaders. For instance, Bahawal Fatiana, Salabat Tarhana and Sarung Vehniwal wrote a letter to Woordie-Major Mir Barkat Ali of 1st Irregular Cavalry, requesting him to leave the British army and help them against the British. They offered him the leadership of their resistance movement, and they were ready to afford all expanses for the feeding all the men and horses, which he might bring along. They wanted to get his support for the independence of their country from the yoke of the British. Similarly, some leaders of the Gugera Movement named Muhamand Kathia, Nathu Kathia, Murad Kathia, Amir Kathia and Lal Kathia, Bahawal Fatiana and Salabat Tarhana wrote a letter to the Nawab of Bahawalpur, in which they wrote:
> 
> "Whereas intelligence was received to the effect that the King of Delhi was making war against the English Government for the sake of establishing Muslim regime under the Divine command, on hearing this happy news, all the _Zamindars _of this country rose up for struggle against the English authorities of the Multan Division. Accordingly, we are fighting against them upto the present time…if you are firm in the religion of Islam, we have about 18000 fighting men ready to serve wherever your highness may require them…we beg that, for the sake of God and his Prophet, your highness may lend your hand and assist us, for which you will be rewarded at the Day of Judgement".
> 
> If we analyze these letters impartially, the correct picture of the designs of the leaders of the Gugera Movement becomes clear. They were not thieves or cattle-lifters, rather they were rich and influential people of their areas, and the people had great love and respect for them. For example the Superintendent of Gugera jail had great devotion for Ahmad Khan, and allowed him to visit the jail inspite of strict restrictions by the British authorities. Similarly, the guard refused to give boats to Berkeley, Extra Assistant Commissioner, since Ahmad Khan had ordered him not to do so, and he considered Ahmad Khan as the king of the area. The above-mentioned letter of the freedom-fighters also reveals that they tried to invoke religious symbols for mustering the support of the Nawab of Bahawalpur. For them, revival of Islam meant restoration of political authority of the Muslims. In other words, for them revival or protection of Islam was not possible without establishing Muslim political authority. It was a pre-requisite for their desired protection of Islam. So they were ready to sacrifice their lives as well as their property for this purpose. In the end we may conclude that the leaders of the Gugera Movement were neither thieves nor cattle-lifters, they were popular leaders of the people in their respective areas in the Punjab, who led the resistance movement at various places in the province. They were neither rulers, nor sepoys, but were freedom-fighters. They had no personal grievances against the British. Neither their _jagirs _were confiscated, nor their pensions stopped. They fought for a noble cause which was to eliminate foreign rule from their homeland.
> 
> From
> http://pakgeotagging.blogspot.com/2015/04/punjab-rebellion-of-1857.html?m=1



Let us not be defensive about this. Punjabis did help the British put down the mutiny. 
The revolting sepoys help the British conquer Punjab by defeating the Sikh kingdom

if the mutiny had succeeded the future would have been uncertain for India



save_ghenda said:


> Name of traitors.  I'm sure these people were compensated by British for their loyalty and their descendants are probably now politicians.
> 
> "Makhdoom Shah Mahmud Qureshi Multan"
> 
> This name sound familiar.



why are they politicians ?? Why can't they be generals ??


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## Mentee

wiseone2 said:


> why are they politicians ?? Why can't they be generals ??


Coz unlike our generals , politicians don't come from middle and lower middle class --------


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## wiseone2

Mentee said:


> Coz unlike our generals , politicians don't come from middle and lower middle class --------



weren't the sepoys who fought for the british from the lower and middle classes ?


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## Mentee

wiseone2 said:


> weren't the sepoys who fought for the british from the lower and middle classes ?


Different times , different needs-----


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## wiseone2

Mentee said:


> Different times , different needs-----



convenient to ignore facts when they do not suit your narrative


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## SarthakGanguly

wiseone2 said:


> Let us not be defensive about this. Punjabis did help the British put down the mutiny.
> The revolting sepoys help the British conquer Punjab by defeating the Sikh kingdom


Partly true. The Sikhs and almost all Hindus in Punjab for instance totally supported the British. Any sane Sikh/Hindu would have done that. In fact the Sikh regiment was instrumental in retaking lost possessions.

The rest of Punjab (Muslims) were probably either neutral or (as we see in the OP) fighting to re-establish the rule of Islam.


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## Mentee

wiseone2 said:


> convenient to ignore facts when they do not suit your narrative


Fine Pakistan is all about doctor evil and Punjab needs to be nuked, happy now


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## wiseone2

Mentee said:


> Fine Pakistan is all about doctor evil and Punjab needs to be nuked, happy now



what is the need to be defensive about this ??



SarthakGanguly said:


> Partly true. The Sikhs and almost all Hindus in Punjab for instance totally supported the British. Any sane Sikh/Hindu would have done that. In fact the Sikh regiment was instrumental in retaking lost possessions.
> 
> The rest of Punjab (Muslims) were probably either neutral or (as we see in the OP) fighting to re-establish the rule of Islam.



It is true that Muslims were the least loyal towards the British
they still had visions of Mughal dynasty


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## Mentee

wiseone2 said:


> what is the need to be defensive about this ??


You in all probability are trying to vent out your frustration at Pakistani ethnicities when the fact is it took Britishers almost a hundred years to capture north western subcontinent aka modern day Pakistan ------
Edit: Don't even compare sissy gujaratis and marathas with Punjabis, its outrageous -----

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## SarthakGanguly

wiseone2 said:


> It is true that Muslims were the least loyal towards the British
> they still had visions of Mughal dynasty


Yeah, and why should they not? They were ruled for almost a century by the Marathas and Sikhs and the desire to lord over the majority, to have the privilege over the 'infidels', just to feel good if nothing else, to have a Badshah (even titular) would have felt great. I find it normal.

The Sikhs and Hindus looked out for themselves in Punjab - hence the total support for the British forces there. In the UP, the loyalties of the Hindus were very divided. As were those of the Muslims.

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## wiseone2

Mentee said:


> You in all probability are trying to vent out your frustration at Pakistani ethnicities when the fact is it took Britishers almost a hundred years to capture north western subcontinent aka modern day Pakistan ------



I have no grudge to grind with pakistanis on how they dealt with the british

what is the point of this statement ??
"it took Britishers almost a hundred years to capture north western subcontinent aka modern day Pakistan"
if you want to make it sound like the people of north western subcontinent are more brave and skilled at fighting you failed

Check your history
The British East india Company started at the coasts - Bombay, Madras and Calcutta. 
They conquered Bengal & Bihar in 1757. 
It took them 40 years to defeat the Marathas (1775-1819)
The lord of the North west was Ranjit Singh who was friendly to the British. Ranjit Singh died in 1839. 
The two Anglo-Sikh wars were between 1845 and 1850. There were Punjabi Muslims in Ranjit Singh's army. In 1850 they took over Punjab and NWFP.
In 1843 the British conquered Sind

If you disagree with any of the above facts please feel free



SarthakGanguly said:


> Yeah, and why should they not? They were ruled for almost a century by the Marathas and Sikhs and the desire to lord over the majority, to have the privilege over the 'infidels', just to feel good if nothing else, to have a Badshah (even titular) would have felt great. I find it normal.
> 
> The Sikhs and Hindus looked out for themselves in Punjab - hence the total support for the British forces there. In the UP, the loyalties of the Hindus were very divided. As were those of the Muslims.



i never meant it as a negative

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## Mentee

SarthakGanguly said:


> They were ruled for almost a century by the Marathas and Sikhs


Marthas came in for some years only to be butchered by Punjabis as for the Sikh rule over Punjab , it by far proved to be a blessing for Punjab , (after all we are the same group of people with different Faiths) with Punjabi maharaja ranjit singhs Punjabi Muslim chief minister------ and don't spew lies on the pretext of religion. It was Punjabi Muslim Saints fatvas which made the Muslims slaughter mughal armies, unlike Hindu rajputs Punjabi Muslim rajputs didn't marry their women to mughals

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## wiseone2

Mentee said:


> Marthas came in for some years only to be butchered by Punjabis as for the Sikh rule over Punjab it by far proved to be a blessing for Punjab , with maharaja ranjit singhs Muslim chief minister------ and don't spew lies on the pretext of religion. It was Punjabi Muslim Saints fatvas which made the Muslims slaughter mughal armies, unlike Hindu rajputs Punjabi Muslim rajputs didn't marry their women to mughals



Marathas did not control Punjab. They had skirmishes with powers to be in Punjab. They ruled Delhi, parts of UP & Rajasthan, MP, Gujarat and Maharastra. They were the dominant power from 1707 to 1805 (give or take a few years)


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## Mentee

wiseone2 said:


> if you want to make it sound like the people of north western subcontinent are more brave and skilled at fighting


Any doubt about that look at the make up of Indian military for a moment------ Punjabis and rajputs constitute 6% of Indian populace yet there strength is in lacs------- its all about Punjabis and rajpots on Indian side which have the guts to give enemy a bloody nose while burgers from maratha and other Indian states only know how to brag about their scores in call of duty, with the exception of gurkhas



wiseone2 said:


> Marathas did not control Punjab. They had skirmishes with powers to be in Punjab. They ruled Delhi, parts of UP & Rajasthan, MP, Gujarat and Maharastra. They were the dominant power from 1707 to 1805 (give or take a few years)


Like Taliban ? Overwhelm one city state, get a good beating and then run to another with their tails under their legs , speaks volume

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## Braith

Mentee said:


> Marthas came in for some years only to be butchered by Punjabis as for the Sikh rule over Punjab , it by far proved to be a blessing for Punjab , (after all we are the same group of people with different Faiths) with Punjabi maharaja ranjit singhs Punjabi Muslim chief minister------ and don't spew lies on the pretext of religion. It was Punjabi Muslim Saints fatvas which made the Muslims slaughter mughal armies, unlike Hindu rajputs Punjabi Muslim rajputs didn't marry their women to mughals


Thats not true............it was Punjabi Musalman leader Adina Beg Arian who invited Marathas to Punjab against Afghans. Adina had recruits from Muslim martial tribes of Punjab under his banner and he also had support of Sikhs......so a triple alliance, Punjabi Muslims + Sikhs + Marathas , was formed against Afghans......Marathas appointed Adina Beg as governor of Punjab................Marathas did not face any resistance in Punjab from local Muslims.....they run away from Punjab on the news of approach of Abdali army from Afghanistan......

Do tell us which Punjabi saint issued fatwas against Mughals?.....as far as i know Punjab under Mughals enjoyed peace and its people remained very loyal to Mughal badshahs.

And its not like Mughals sent marriage proposals to Muslim Rajputs of Punjab.........they were simply not considered. They needed the military assets of Rajputana, not of petty zamindars of Punjab, so preferred the former for matrimonial alliance. The only Punjabi clan, they sought after , were Ghakkars of Potohar.........Ghakkar chiefs were given mansabs and offices and two females from this baradri entered into royal harem of Mughals.


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## Kabira

Braith said:


> Do tell us which Punjabi saint issued fatwas against Mughals?.....as far as i know Punjab under Mughals enjoyed peace and its people remained very loyal to Mughal badshahs.
> 
> And its not like Mughals sent marriage proposals to Muslim Rajputs of Punjab.........they were simply not considered. They needed the military assets of Rajputana, not of petty zamindars of Punjab, so preferred the former for matrimonial alliance. The only Punjabi clan, they sought after , were Ghakkars of Potohar.........Ghakkar chiefs were given mansabs and offices and two females from this baradri entered into royal harem of Mughals.



This isn't true, we all know about Dullah Bhatti but only recently I found out about Panah Bhatti who was from Gujranwala.

"In 1738, Panah Bhatti, a very powerful, Chieftain, had the whole of western Punjab, from Hasan Abdal, Attock, to the banks of the River Ravi, at his mercy, Gujranwala area, was to under his influence, but was defeated, by the Muslim Mughal Governors, of Lahore. Panah Bhatti, was captured and killed."

Or this

"*After destroying the Fort of Lohgarh, the Nawab turned his attention to the supression of the recalcitrant Kharal, Gondal, Bhatti and Ranjha tribes of the bar area* [modern Faisalabad and Sheikhupura districts of Pakistan.."

These 4 tribes were 95% or even more muslims in western punjab. I don't think gondal, ranjha and kharal sikh/hindus exist. But I agree overall punjabi muslims didn't had much problem with Mughals, maybe thats why Adina (Mughal governor even if punjabi) used to get support easily from them against Afghans or later on against Sikhs. More persian manuscripts needs to be translated to get clear picture of history of this region.

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## Braith

save_ghenda said:


> This isn't true, we all know about Dullah Bhatti but only recently I found out about Panah Bhatti who was from Gujranwala.
> 
> "In 1738, Panah Bhatti, a very powerful, Chieftain, had the whole of western Punjab, from Hasan Abdal, Attock, to the banks of the River Ravi, at his mercy, Gujranwala area, was to under his influence, but was defeated, by the Muslim Mughal Governors, of Lahore. Panah Bhatti, was captured and killed."
> 
> Or this
> 
> "*After destroying the Fort of Lohgarh, the Nawab turned his attention to the supression of the recalcitrant Kharal, Gondal, Bhatti and Ranjha tribes of the bar area* [modern Faisalabad and Sheikhupura districts of Pakistan.."
> 
> These 4 tribes were 95% or even more muslims in western punjab. I don't think gondal, ranjha and kharal sikh/hindus exist. But I agree overall punjabi muslims didn't had much problem with Mughals, maybe thats why Adina (Mughal governor even if punjabi) used to get support easily from them against Afghans or later on against Sikhs. More persian manuscripts needs to be translated to get clear picture of history of this region.


I do know about Dullah Bhatti but hard to tell whether he was hunted down by Mughals for his "Robinhood-banditry" or he was an actual threat to the state........real history might be different from folklore about him......Mannuci , the Italian travelller of 17th century who wrote Mughal history, has great details about Punjab and its people, mentions Ghakkars in postive light but mention Bhattis as 'robbers', that they have been troublesome for Mughal authorities and people due to their banditry. He records that Bhattis are also recruited in Mughal army........there are six volumes of his book "storia da mogor" so it will be hard for me to find the exact page but the book is available online in PDF form....

I did have read "Later Mughal history of Punjab" by Hari Ram Gupta where Panah Bhatti is mentioned, but so much information is stuffed in that book, full of attacks and activities of Sikhs, that it skips the mind......18th century is period of chaos, and loose Mughal control......what i had in my mind was period between Akbar and Aurangzeb's death......I doubt any Punjabi darvesh or scholar has issued any fatwa against Mughals........may be against inclination of Akbar towards Hindus?......Waris Shah (and i am sure Bulleh Shah also) had praises for Mughals


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## Manidabest

well to be frank as a Punjabi muslim i think now Punjabi muslims have a say in their affairs otherwise we were always under the rule of Arabs(Umayya Dynasty & Abbasid Dynasty), Turks ( Ghaznaviz, Ghorids, Mamluks, Mughals), Afghans( Lodhis, Suris, Abadalis), Marathas, Sikhs( but non muslims), & British....After the seperation of countries we have done pretty well but we should treat the other equally ... our mentality & personality needs to develop very well and we need to have self confidence .... now Shahbaaz sharif a kashmiri is ruling our Punjab ... Muslim Punjabis were able to produce good agriculturalists, soldiers, or politicians in the past but now we have produced generals and, scientists, engineers, bankers, traders a different class ... we shudnt be ashamed of our past and we shudnt neglect our language( prefering urdu over punjabi)..... we have rich traditions and history ....


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## Mentee

Braith said:


> Thats not true............it was Punjabi Musalman leader Adina Beg Arian who invited Marathas to Punjab against Afghans. Adina had recruits from Muslim martial tribes of Punjab under his banner and he also had support of Sikhs......so a triple alliance, Punjabi Muslims + Sikhs + Marathas , was formed against Afghans......Marathas appointed Adina Beg as governor of Punjab................Marathas did not face any resistance in Punjab from local Muslims.....they run away from Punjab on the news of approach of Abdali army from Afghanistan......
> 
> Do tell us which Punjabi saint issued fatwas against Mughals?.....as far as i know Punjab under Mughals enjoyed peace and its people remained very loyal to Mughal badshahs.
> 
> And its not like Mughals sent marriage proposals to Muslim Rajputs of Punjab.........they were simply not considered. They needed the military assets of Rajputana, not of petty zamindars of Punjab, so preferred the former for matrimonial alliance. The only Punjabi clan, they sought after , were Ghakkars of Potohar.........Ghakkar chiefs were given mansabs and offices and two females from this baradri entered into royal harem of Mughals.


I was simply refuting his assertions that marathas ruled Punjab for a century, for the fatvas, Madho Lal Hussein and many other Saints issued fatvas against mughals, have your read literary works of Baba Bullah Shah?


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## Joe Shearer

Mentee said:


> Any doubt about that look at the make up of Indian military for a moment------ Punjabis and rajputs constitute 6% of Indian populace yet there strength is in lacs------- its all about Punjabis and rajpots on Indian side which have the guts to give enemy a bloody nose while burgers from maratha and other Indian states only know how to brag about their scores in call of duty, with the exception of gurkhas
> 
> 
> Like Taliban ? Overwhelm one city state, get a good beating and then run to another with their tails under their legs , speaks volume



I suggest you read up about the composition of the British East India Company's troops. Agha Amin might be a good place to start. Do remember that all these macho races were conquered by UP and Bihar bhaiyas.

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## Kabira

Braith said:


> I do know about Dullah Bhatti but hard to tell whether he was hunted down by Mughals for his "Robinhood-banditry" or he was an actual threat to the state........real history might be different from folklore about him......Mannuci , the Italian travelller of 17th century who wrote Mughal history, has great details about Punjab and its people, mentions Ghakkars in postive light but mention Bhattis as 'robbers', that they have been troublesome for Mughal authorities and people.......there are six volumes of his book "storia da mogor" so it will be hard for me to find the exact page but the book is available online in PDF form....
> 
> I did have read "Later Mughal history of Punjab" by Hari Ram Gupta where Panah Bhatti is mentioned, but so much information is stuffed in that book, full of attacks and activities of Sikhs, that it skips the mind......18th century is period of chaos, and loose Mughal control......what i had in my mind was period between Akbar and Aurangzeb's death......



Have you read about sikhs and pashtun alliance in Hazara against British?

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## wiseone2

Mentee said:


> Any doubt about that look at the make up of Indian military for a moment------ Punjabis and rajputs constitute 6% of Indian populace yet there strength is in lacs------- its all about Punjabis and rajpots on Indian side which have the guts to give enemy a bloody nose while burgers from maratha and other Indian states only know how to brag about their scores in call of duty, with the exception of gurkhas



It is irrelevant to the above discussion. Punjab capitulated in 5 years to the British (1845-1850)



Mentee said:


> Any doubt about that look at the make up of Indian military for a moment------ Punjabis and rajputs constitute 6% of Indian populace yet there strength is in lacs------- its all about Punjabis and rajpots on Indian side which have the guts to give enemy a bloody nose while burgers from maratha and other Indian states only know how to brag about their scores in call of duty, with the exception of gurkhas
> 
> 
> Like Taliban ? Overwhelm one city state, get a good beating and then run to another with their tails under their legs , speaks volume



The Marathas base of power was in Deccan. They had no political base in Punjab. They wiped out the Mughals. They fought the British the longest. Their reign lasted 100 years. Nothing changes that



Joe Shearer said:


> I suggest you read up about the composition of the British East India Company's troops. Agha Amin might be a good place to start. Do remember that all these macho races were conquered by UP and Bihar bhaiyas.



it was not even close ...


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## Braith

save_ghenda said:


> Have you read about sikhs and pashtun alliance in Hazara against British?


No, i am not aware of it........as per my knowledge, Jadoons, Mashwanis, Swatis etc cooperated with British against Sikhs in Anglo-Sikh wars



Mentee said:


> I was simply refuting his assertions that marathas ruled Punjab for a century, for the fatvas, Madho Lal Hussein and many other Saints issued fatvas against mughals, have your read literary works of Baba Bullah Shah?


Madho Lal Hussein (1538–1599)........do tell us what kind of fatwa he issued against emperor Akbar?. Keep in mind that Akbar's Din-i-Ilahi greatly agitated ulemas and religious folk all across the India, not just Punjab .....the contemporary European travelers in India have recorded rumours about Akbar spread in the general population that he had become a Hindu, that he hanged people for cow slaughter, that he had opened sharab-khanas , that Arabic is banned etc......many of the rumours were baseless but you can understand what kind of image Akbar had in the interior of India amongst its Muslim population


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## Mentee

Joe Shearer said:


> I suggest you read up about the composition of the British East India Company's troops. Agha Amin might be a good place to start. Do remember that all these macho races were conquered by UP and Bihar bhaiyas.





wiseone2 said:


> It is irrelevant to the above discussion. Punjab capitulated in 5 years to the British (1845-1850)
> 
> 
> 
> The Marathas base of power was in Deccan. They had no political base in Punjab. They wiped out the Mughals. They fought the British the longest. Their reign lasted 100 years. Nothing changes that
> 
> 
> 
> it was not even close ...



Talk Is frivolous , I suggest you pitch Indian Punjabis and rajputs against the whole of Indian masses. Raise two parallel armies of these groups then distribute 45% of the military assests to the Punjabi jats and rajpiuts . While the other side can recruit as many soldiers it want to with the 55% assets already at its disposal, iam sure , the world would witness a Punjabi victory if not a stalemate

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## wiseone2

Mentee said:


> Talk Is frivolous , I suggest you pitch Indian Punjabis and rajputs against the whole of Indian masses. Raise two parallel armies of these groups then distribute 45% of the military assests to the Punjabi jats and rajpiuts . While the other side can recruit as many soldiers it want to with the 55% assets already at its disposal, iam sure , the world would witness a Punjabi victory if not a stalemate



it is completely irrelevant to modern warfare. West Pakistanis could not control Bengalis in 1971

" the fact is it took Britishers almost a hundred years to capture north western subcontinent aka modern day Pakistan "
Your original line was a complete fallacy. It took a few days for a modern army to rout the Sikhs and take over modern day Pakistan.

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## Mentee

wiseone2 said:


> it is completely irrelevant to modern warfare. West Pakistanis could not control Bengalis in 1971
> 
> " the fact is it took Britishers almost a hundred years to capture north western subcontinent aka modern day Pakistan "
> Your original line was a complete fallacy. It took a few days for a modern army to rout the Sikhs and take over modern day Pakistan.


Sikhs are Punjabi so what's the point? Punjabi capturin Punjab!
Edit: Mahraja ranjit Singh was from Gujranwala. A little google search would help you, where Gujranwala is.

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## Joe Shearer

Mentee said:


> Talk Is frivolous , I suggest you pitch Indian Punjabis and rajputs against the whole of Indian masses. Raise two parallel armies of these groups then distribute 45% of the military assests to the Punjabi jats and rajpiuts . While the other side can recruit as many soldiers it want to with the 55% assets already at its disposal, iam sure , the world would witness a Punjabi victory if not a stalemate



I doubt it strongly. Several times in history, the Punjab has been a dominated out-march of Gangetic empires, and on one occasion, even a south Indian power had swept the board. These fables of the martial races were created by the British; they should have died with the British Empire. It is intriguing to see that it has survived in one part of the world, but in a distorted, twisted form.



Mentee said:


> Sikhs are Punjabi so what's the point? Punjabi capturin Punjab!
> Edit: Mahraja ranjit Singh was from Gujranwala. A little google search would help you, where Gujranwala is.



Please read his remark carefully. He mentioned a modern Army conquering the Sikhs. Actually, while he is wrong, the point is that it was not a modern Punjabi Army conquering the Sikhs, so your Punjabi capturing Punjabi does not apply.

That ship has sailed long since.

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## Mentee

Joe Shearer said:


> I doubt it strongly. Several times in history, the Punjab has been a dominated out-march of Gangetic empires, and on one occasion, even a south Indian power had swept the board. These fables of the martial races were created by the British; they should have died with the British Empire. It is intriguing to see that it has survived in one part of the world, but in a distorted, twisted form.
> 
> 
> 
> Please read his remark carefully. He mentioned a modern Army conquering the Sikhs. Actually, while he is wrong, the point is that it was not a modern Punjabi Army conquering the Sikhs, so your Punjabi capturing Punjabi does not apply.
> 
> That ship has sailed long since.


With all due respect sir claims regarding some imaginary south Indian empire invading and ruling Punjab has been debunked many a times at PDF . You exclude Punjabi jats and rajput tribes out of the equation, Indian army will fall apart while facing a potential enemy.
Why don't you give a try to my idea, hmmm some simulation-----


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## Joe Shearer

Mentee said:


> With all due respect sir claims regarding some imaginary south Indian empire invading and ruling Punjab has been debunked many a times at PDF . You exclude Punjabi jats and rajput tribes out of the equation, Indian army will fall apart while facing a potential enemy.
> Why don't you give a try to my idea, hmmm some simulation-----



I do not remember any such debunking. I have been a member for some time, and have participated, even led most discussions on historical subjects.

I suggest before making such an undue hue and cry about this silly theory, you read Agha Amin. He may be able to correct your delusions. I have neither the patience nor the inclination to try. 

You do remember, of course, that teachers are sometimes, when inclined suitably, mentors.


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## Mentee

Joe Shearer said:


> I do not remember any such debunking. I have been a member for some time, and have participated, even led most discussions on historical subjects.
> 
> I suggest before making such an undue hue and cry about this silly theory, you read Agha Amin. He may be able to correct your delusions. I have neither the patience nor the inclination to try.
> 
> You do remember, of course, that teachers are sometimes, when inclined suitably, mentors.


You are entitled to your opinion and thanks alot for calling me delusional  But the fact is, that children of indus thread deciphered many misconceptions vis a vis Punjab and IVC-----


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## Joe Shearer

Mentee said:


> You are entitled to your opinion and thanks alot for calling me delusional  But the fact is, that children of indus thread deciphered many misconceptions vis a vis Punjab and IVC-----



I have not the slightest idea what that means, or what you are talking about.

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## Mentee

Joe Shearer said:


> I have not the slightest idea what that means, or what you are talking about.


Mera kam ho gea sir g good night


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## DESERT FIGHTER

wiseone2 said:


> Let us not be defensive about this. Punjabis did help the British put down the mutiny.
> The revolting sepoys help the British conquer Punjab by defeating the Sikh kingdom
> 
> if the mutiny had succeeded the future would have been uncertain for India
> 
> 
> 
> why are they politicians ?? Why can't they be generals ??



The soldiers that took down the Panjabi state were not from Panjab but rather from modern day Indian states of Awadh,Rajhistan and others...

The was one of the reasons the Panjabi soldiers in 57 had no problem killing the same men who helped colonise their country...

For more read "Sepoy and the Raj" by David Omissi.. A British military historian..

The Gugera movement etc were a result of British authorities and the imposition of unjust taxation.. Which turned into an insurgency.. Which was crushed with the helped of none other than traitors many of who's descendants now sitting in our parliaments both provincial and national...

Most of these Fukin landlords/politicians are byproducts of Fukin scumbags who sided with the British for financial and political gains..



Braith said:


> Thats not true............it was Punjabi Musalman leader Adina Beg Arian who invited Marathas to Punjab against Afghans. Adina had recruits from Muslim martial tribes of Punjab under his banner and he also had support of Sikhs......so a triple alliance, Punjabi Muslims + Sikhs + Marathas , was formed against Afghans......Marathas appointed Adina Beg as governor of Punjab................Marathas did not face any resistance in Punjab from local Muslims.....they run away from Punjab on the news of approach of Abdali army from Afghanistan......
> 
> Do tell us which Punjabi saint issued fatwas against Mughals?.....as far as i know Punjab under Mughals enjoyed peace and its people remained very loyal to Mughal badshahs.



Adina Baig didn't just have alliances with Sikhs or Marathas (whom he paid 75 lakh to do his dirty work) but also with the Mughals .. He played all for his gains .. He used them against eachother and emerged as the most powerful man of Panjab.

A peasant by origin .. Became sort of a king of Panjab.



> And its not like Mughals sent marriage proposals to Muslim Rajputs of Punjab.........they were simply not considered. They needed the military assets of Rajputana, not of petty zamindars of Punjab, so preferred the former for matrimonial alliance. The only Punjabi clan, they sought after , were Ghakkars of Potohar.........Ghakkar chiefs were given mansabs and offices and two females from this baradri entered into royal harem of Mughals.



The Mughals also had Pashtun wifes .. Ironic how the same men whom Babur had massacred later married their women into the Mughals.



Mentee said:


> You are entitled to your opinion and thanks alot for calling me delusional  But the fact is, that children of indus thread deciphered many misconceptions vis a vis Punjab and IVC-----



Joe is in denial..

The British 
did recruit South Indians and even "bhaiyas" as he calls the UP people etc.. But those regiments were disbanded after the soldiers of those (south and central indian) origin proved to be rather "unwarlike",lazy and ill suited for the job... 

The British actually used the same formula when they recruited soldiers from regions like Scotland and so on...

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## Kabira

Braith said:


> No, i am not aware of it........as per my knowledge, Jadoons, Mashwanis, Swatis etc cooperated with British against Sikhs in Anglo-Sikh wars




_"THE HAZARA DISTRICT. 429 

the district had not a new enemy risen up against him in the 
person of Ghulam Haidar Khan, son of the Amir Dost 
Mahomed Khan of Kabul. *This prince had been sent by his 
father to seize Kashmir after the fall of Attock'in January, 1848. 
Ghulam Haidar joined his forces with those of the Sikhs 
with the object of putting an end to British influence on the 
Frontier almost before it had commenced to bud.* The 
combination looked too powerful to be resisted ; and most 
of the Hazara Chiefs, including the Turins and Tarkhelis, 
went over to the allies, *leaving Abbott almost alone*. This 
gallant officer did not even then despair. He moved back 
to the country round Sherwan, determined to oppose the 
passage of the Duranis in the event of their making a move 
towards Kashmir. 

In the meanwhile the fate of the rebels was being sealed 
lower down upon the plains of Gujrat and Chilianwala. 
Almost within a year of their capture of Attock, the last of 
the Afghans had fled back over the Indus to their own 
mountains ; while the Sikh power was broken up for ever, 
and their country possessed by the British. After an anxious 
seven months of waiting, Abbott found himself able to smile 
upon the few friends who had remained faithful and helped 
him in all his difficulties, believing in his assurances that the 
English must win in the end. *The Khanpur Gakhars stuck 
to Abbott throughout ; and some of their best men went 
down to Multan and served at the siege under Edwardes. *
They, moreover, paid their revenue to us regularly during 
the war, when Abbott wanted all the money he could collect. 
Yet the treatment they received when we took the country 
over was not such as we can now feel proud of. *They were 
merely confirmed in their old jagirs and told to wait for a 
consideration of their claims to the ownership of their villages, 
which had been snatched from them by the Sikhs, *until the 
district should come under regular setdement."

https://archive.org/stream/chiefsfamiliesof00massrich/chiefsfamiliesof00massrich_djvu.txt_

So Afghans and Sikhs joined hands against British but Ghakkhars were on side of British. Its not that surprising. There were hardly any Afghan/pashtun settlements in north and central punjab apart from in Kasur. They at most used to go back to mountains but in case of Ghakhars sikhs captured their jagirs etc

Didn't sikhs also help some Afghan ruler Shuja Khan?

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## Braith

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Most of these Fukin landlords/politicians are byproducts of Fukin scumbags who sided with the British for financial and political gains..


Sounds strange coming from your mouth..............Is'nt Pakistan army, in which your father is employed, is also a byproduct of British imperialism?. Sahibzada Abdul Qayyum, Habibllah Khan and all other *Muslim leagui *leaders from my province, were also namak-khwar of British and served in British offices....for example here famous Sahibzada Abdul Qayyum Khan is defending British policy in opposition to Afghan delegate











> The Mughals did recruit South Indians and even "bhaiyas" as he calls the UP people etc.. But those regiments were disbanded after the soldiers of those (south and central indian) origin proved to be rather "unwarlike",lazy and ill suited for the job...
> 
> The British actually used the same formula when they recruited soldiers from regions like Scotland and so on...


Thats not true.........South India came into possession of Mughals in very late stage , under Aurangzeb, and even then the rule over the area was not on firm footing and the focus was diverted towards crushing Maratha insurgency which grew stronger in last 25 years of Aurangzeb's reign. So absence of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Kerala etc from Mughal hierarchy is understandable........but keep in mind, Aurangzeb recruited large number of Maratha officers and soldiers.....

Your "bhaiya" taunt, did not exist back in Mughal period........one of the most formidable soldiers of Mughals, who always had the honour and tradition of leading Mughal vanguard, were the so called "bhaiyas" of UP, i.e Sayyids of Barha, who later led Hindustani faction in 1710-1720. Moreover large number of officers and soldiers of Mughals were these "bahiya" Rajputs of U.P and Bihar......You must have come under spell of martial theory of your British masters, but its nonsensical.......refrain from bragging and "bhaiya" taunt to U.P-walas in regard to their role in Mughal empire.....because while your Balochs were not even considered by Mughals (even though you people have folklore of winning Delhi for Humayun), U.P was epicenter of Mughal empire and Delhi sultanates before them....


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## Kabira

Found another reference of Afghan alliance with Sikhs against British

_"On the 21st of February, the battle of Gujrat was fought, when the 
united Sikh and Afghan army was ^mpletely defeated, with the loss of 
53 guns. This was virtually the end of the war. The victory was fol- 
lowed up with vigour, and at Rawal Pindi, on the 14th March, Chattar 
^iiujh and Sher ShAgh^ with what remained together of the Sikh army, 
some 16^000 men, laid down their arms."
https://archive.org/stream/panjabchiefshis00grifgoog/panjabchiefshis00grifgoog_djvu.txt_



wiseone2 said:


> why are they politicians ?? Why can't they be generals ??



I was only half serious by calling them traitors, not sure what these disorganised tribes were fighting for. Mughals were long gone, British were clearly better alternative.

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## Braith

save_ghenda said:


> Found another reference of Afghan alliance with Sikhs against British
> 
> _"On the 21st of February, the battle of Gujrat was fought, when the
> united Sikh and Afghan army was ^mpletely defeated, with the loss of
> 53 guns. This was virtually the end of the war. The victory was fol-
> lowed up with vigour, and at Rawal Pindi, on the 14th March, Chattar
> ^iiujh and Sher ShAgh^ with what remained together of the Sikh army,
> some 16^000 men, laid down their arms."
> https://archive.org/stream/panjabchiefshis00grifgoog/panjabchiefshis00grifgoog_djvu.txt_


I did know that Amir Dost Muhammad Khan was supporting Sikhs in war with British.......did not know to which extent..........After first Anglo-Afghan war , he had realized Angraiz to be a greater threat. An interesting bit from history is, that he actually managed to occupy Peshawar city after fall of Sikh rule at the hands of British.......but he failed to gain the support of local Pashtun chiefs who had sold themselves to British, so when he heard of British army approach towards Peshawar , he run away towards Kabul without even contest.

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## Manidabest

this is not the thread on sikhs & pashtuns or anyone else .....this thread is all about Punjabi muslims...and pls respect that thank you


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Braith said:


> Sounds strange coming from your mouth..............Is'nt Pakistan army, in which your father is employed, is also a byproduct of British imperialism?



Sounds strange coming from a marwat whose family was also saved by the byproduct of imperialism?



> Sahibzada Abdul Qayyum, Habibllah Khan and all other *Muslim leagui *leaders from my province, were also namak-khwar of British and served in British offices....for example here famous Sahibzada Abdul Qayyum Khan is defending British policy in opposition to Afghan delegate



Doesn't have anything to do with my post now ?



> Thats not true.........South India came into possession of Mughals in very late stage , under Aurangzeb, and even then the rule over the area was not on firm footing and the focus was diverted towards crushing Maratha insurgency which grew stronger in last 25 years of Aurangzeb's reign. So absence of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Kerala etc from Mughal hierarchy is understandable........but keep in mind, Aurangzeb recruited large number of Maratha officers and soldiers...


I meant British .. As for Mughals or Aurangzeb he also butchered a lot of Marathas too... Didn't he ? What should those turn coat Marathas etc serving Aurangzeb he considered ?


> Your "bhaiya" taunt, did not exist back in Mughal period........one of the most formidable soldiers of Mughals, who always had the honour and tradition of leading Mughal vanguard, were the so called "bhaiyas" of UP, i.e Sayyids of Barha, who later led Hindustani faction in 1710-1720.


he ancestor of Bārha Sayyids, Syed Abu'l Farah AlHussaini, left his original home in Wasit, Iraq, with his twelve sons at the end of the 10th century (or in the beginning of the 11th century) and migrated to India, where he obtained four estates in Punjab. By the sixteenth century Abu'l Farah's descendants had taken over Bārha estates in Muzzafarnagar.[2]






> Moreover large number of officers and soldiers of Mughals were these "bahiya" Rajputs of U.P and Bihar......You must have come under spell of martial theory of your British masters, but its nonsensical.......refrain from bragging and "bhaiya" taunt to U.P-walas in regard to their role in Mughal empire.....because while your Balochs were not even considered by Mughals (even though you people have folklore of winning Delhi for Humayun), U.P was epicenter of Mughal empire and Delhi sultanates before them....



You don't have half a brain to comprehend that my post was directed at joe using the same word.. And it's ironic that a man who always bitchez about Urdu speakers is now talking shyt and defending them.

As for masters .. Ironic coming from your kind ... It has produced more turn coats that any other group... Your kind served even those who butchered you so spare me the sermons at least unlike you we weren't doing the dirty work for every other enemy a few years later after humiliation.

We a small ethnic group however did rule princely states in north India aswell as Sindh and southern Panjab... And frankly we don't give a fuk about people ...

Wonder if you consider Babur who made towers of skulls (of your people) your greatest master aswell?

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## Braith

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sounds strange coming from a marwat whose family was also saved by the byproduct of imperialism?


My family saved by byproduct of imperialism? how so?.............yes a Kaliwal of mine, a distant relative, in army has done a favour to me but in the personal capacity......that officer , by the way, is a big haram-khor and has built bungalows, established large business from the corruption he has done as an army officer.



> he ancestor of Bārha Sayyids, Syed Abu'l Farah AlHussaini, left his original home in Wasit, Iraq, with his twelve sons at the end of the 10th century (or in the beginning of the 11th century) and migrated to India, where he obtained four estates in Punjab. By the sixteenth century Abu'l Farah's descendants had taken over Bārha estates in Muzzafarnagar.[2]


So?, many UP Muslims (bhaiyas in your words) are remote descendants of Sayyaids and Qureshi Arabs, or claim to be. The Sayyids of Barha in the service of Mughals, considered themselves to be Hindustanis, were considered Hindustanis by Mughals (Refer to Badshahnama) and they were leaders of Hindustani (Muslim) party.....other factions were Irani and Turani.




> As for masters .. Ironic coming from your kind ... It has produced more turn coats that any other group... Your kind served even those who butchered you so spare me the sermons at least unlike you we weren't doing the dirty work for every other enemy a few years later after humiliation.


 You father serve in Pakistan army, successor of British Indian army, yet you have the audacity to point fingers at the jagirdars and politicians of Pakistan whose forefathers showed loyalty to British?........its ironic

As far as my kind producing so many traitors butchering their own kind...........true, many work beside your father, who have aided GHQ in nurturing Taliban , and talk with Sirajuddin Haqqani in Pashto. Hyerpion, a member here, proudly claimed that his uncle in PAF dropped bombs on his own native village. We have coined a term "Gul Khan' for them..........Do tell us what Marri tribesmen and other Balochs think about your family serving in Pakistan army? do they use word 'traitor' or 'turncoat' for you and your father.



> We a small ethnic group however did rule princely states in north India aswell as Sindh and southern Panjab... And frankly we don't give a fuk about people ...


Which princely state? there was not a single Baloch princely state in North India under British except for their own native ones like Kalat, Lasbela and Kharan. Be sure to check the definition of 'princely state'.........

And Baloch is certainly not a small ethnic group, their combined population in three countries is sizable.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Braith said:


> My family saved by byproduct of imperialism? how so?.............yes a Kaliwal of mine, a distant relative, in army has done a favour to me but in the personal capacity......that officer , by the way, is a big haram-khor and has built bungalows, established large business from the corruption he has done as an army officer.



You are a pathetic little man who hides behind so many fake user IDs and lies that one only feels pitty for you...

"Daktar sb"... Remember the mama chacha airlifted by the army due to his deteriorating health ? Or are you still stuck with that stupid rickshaw wala cousin who was slapped by a soldier for not stopping during army convoy movement !



> So?, many UP Muslims (bhaiyas in your words) are remote descendants of Sayyaids and Qureshi Arabs, or claim to be. The Sayyids of Barha in the service of Mughals, considered themselves to be Hindustanis, were considered Hindustanis by Mughals (Refer to Badshahnama) and they were leaders of Hindustani (Muslim) party.....other factions were Irani and Turani.


Not in my words you idiot ... In Joe Sharears words.. Use your useless brain next time you quote me !

Also the so called Hindustanis employed themselves have arabi origins so much for the UP,CP folk you moan about stereotyping you and making jokes and whatnot..



> You father serve in Pakistan army, successor of British Indian army, yet you have the audacity to point fingers at the jagirdars and politicians of Pakistan whose forefathers showed loyalty to British?........its ironic



How so? Pakistan army salutes the country not the queen .. It is just an institution created by the British much like any other .. Next time you hop on a train,sit in your local DHQ etc ... Stand up and salute the British like the moron you are .. After all be it medical colleges,trains,telephone lines or hospitals its your imperial masters creations or the ones founded by them..



> As far as my kind producing so many traitors butchering their own kind...........true, many work beside your father, who have aided GHQ in nurturing Taliban , and talk with Sirajuddin Haqqani in Pashto. Hyerpion, a member here, proudly claimed that his uncle in PAF dropped bombs on his own native village..........Do tell us what Marri tribesmen and other Balochs think about your family serving in Pakistan army? do they use word 'traitor' or 'turncoat' for you and your father.



No actually they are proud .. How about your family ? Do they spit on you for taking Pakistani currency notes,studying on Pakistani subsidy,using Pakistani facilities,being the pathetic lying scum and yet being the namak haram you are ? They should.. And if not they must know that you are a "nafsiati"... 


> Which princely state? there was not a single Baloch princely state in North India under British except for their own native ones like Kalat, Lasbela and Kharan. Be sure to check the definition of 'princely state'.........


Oh please .. Get lost ... You have no shame licking your own filth...

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## Braith

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> "Daktar sb"... Remember the mama chacha airlifted by the army due to his deteriorating health ? Or are you still stuck with that stupid rickshaw wala cousin who was slapped by a soldier for not stopping during army convoy movement !


My chacha or mama was airlifted by Army? was he a prime minister or what? lol. You are gullible fool. And i am amazed that you have also made up a story that my cousin was slapped by some soldier..........what i narrated was, the half dozens faujis ganged up on some poor young boy with Rikhsha in my home town.....cowards, they beat up a boy at gun point......just like they beat up Motorway Police and sent for "reinforcements" against them.






> How so? Pakistan army salutes the country not the queen .. It is just an institution created by the British much like any other .. Next time you hop on a train,sit in your local DHQ etc ... Stand up and salute the British like the moron you are .. After all be it medical colleges,trains,telephone lines or hospitals its your imperial masters creations or the ones founded by them..


Let me repeat myself low-IQ man.......in which capacity you are showing disgust for nowadays politicians and jagirdars whose grandfathers benefited from British when your own Pakistan army is legacy of British Indian army?


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## Kabira

Braith said:


> My family saved by byproduct of imperialism? how so?.............yes a Kaliwal of mine, a distant relative, in army has done a favour to me but in the personal capacity......that officer , by the way, is a big haram-khor and has built bungalows, established large business from the corruption he has done as an army officer.
> 
> 
> So?, many UP Muslims (bhaiyas in your words) are remote descendants of Sayyaids and Qureshi Arabs, or claim to be. The Sayyids of Barha in the service of Mughals, considered themselves to be Hindustanis, were considered Hindustanis by Mughals (Refer to Badshahnama) and they were leaders of Hindustani (Muslim) party.....other factions were Irani and Turani.
> 
> 
> 
> You father serve in Pakistan army, successor of British Indian army, yet you have the audacity to point fingers at the jagirdars and politicians of Pakistan whose forefathers showed loyalty to British?........its ironic
> 
> As far as my kind producing so many traitors butchering their own kind...........true, many work beside your father, who have aided GHQ in nurturing Taliban , and talk with Sirajuddin Haqqani in Pashto. Hyerpion, a member here, proudly claimed that his uncle in PAF dropped bombs on his own native village. We have coined a term "Gul Khan' for them..........Do tell us what Marri tribesmen and other Balochs think about your family serving in Pakistan army? do they use word 'traitor' or 'turncoat' for you and your father.
> 
> 
> Which princely state? there was not a single Baloch princely state in North India under British except for their own native ones like Kalat, Lasbela and Kharan. Be sure to check the definition of 'princely state'.........
> 
> And Baloch is certainly not a small ethnic group, their combined population in three countries is sizable.



What is your opinion about Afghanistan interference in Pakistan till 70's? Remember only then Bhutto decided to look for allies in Afghanistan.

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## asad71

1. As elsewhere the Hindus of SA were generally pro-British because they wanted to weaken the Muslims totally so that they could take over when the British left. There were honorable exceptions of course. The thriving Banya class and the Hindu landed gentry sided themselves with the Company.
2. Till 1849 Punjab was ruled by the Sikhs. Therefore, the Sikh aristocracy and elite dominated life and society in Punjab.Patiala Maharaja was the most powerful Sikh ruler. A stooge of the Company, he had inherited part of Ranjit Singh's army which he now had largely commanded by English officers. His support was crucial in the Company's victory against the FFs. Patiala troops had excelled the English in committing atrocities on the citizens of Delhi after the city fell. Interestingly Capt Amaranider Singh, the past CM of Punjab, is the scion of that spineless family.


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## wiseone2

asad71 said:


> 1. As elsewhere the Hindus of SA were generally pro-British because they wanted to weaken the Muslims totally so that they could take over when the British left. There were honorable exceptions of course. The thriving Banya class and the Hindu landed gentry sided themselves with the Company.
> 2. Till 1849 Punjab was ruled by the Sikhs. Therefore, the Sikh aristocracy and elite dominated life and society in Punjab.Patiala Maharaja was the most powerful Sikh ruler. A stooge of the Company, he had inherited part of Ranjit Singh's army which he now had largely commanded by English officers. His support was crucial in the Company's victory against the FFs. Patiala troops had excelled the English in committing atrocities on the citizens of Delhi after the city fell. Interestingly Capt Amaranider Singh, the past CM of Punjab, is the scion of that spineless family.



the folks who threw their lot with the English came out ahead in all respects than the ones who fought them


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## Braith

save_ghenda said:


> What is your opinion about Afghanistan interference in Pakistan till 70's? Remember only then Bhutto decided to look for allies in Afghanistan.


Foolish actions by Afghan government........they should have recognized the legitimacy of Durand line from the beginning and should have maintained friendly relations with Pakistan......the entire Pashtunistan drama was unnecessary.......


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## Kabira

Braith said:


> Foolish actions by Afghan government........they should have recognized the legitimacy of Durand line from the beginning and should have maintained friendly relations with Pakistan......the entire Pashtunistan drama was unnecessary.......



OK then why do you blame Gul Khans for doing their job? Did you expect Pakistan to sit back and watch? TBH chances are Afghan civil war was around the corner even without ISI.


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## Braith

save_ghenda said:


> *OK then why do you blame Gul Khans for doing their job?* Did you expect Pakistan to sit back and watch? TBH chances are Afghan civil war was around the corner even without ISI.


But did i say that Pashtuns on both sides of border should distance themselves from each other?.......

Afghan civil war of 90s was imminent in the absence of central authority and in the presence of so many factions of mujahideen


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## Tergon18

The second incident of rebellion among the civilians occurred in the hills of Murree. Like Punjab and Kashmir, Murree too was under the occupation of the Sikhs until 1849. The people had always resisted the unpopular Sikh rule. Most of the people were apparently content with the British rule, but obviously there was some resentment as well. I wish we somebody could do a more thorough research on this subject. An article about the rebellion in 1857 in Wikipedia, states the events as under:

The War against the British reached Murree and the Southern Areas of Hazara part of which is now known as Circle Bakote in July 1857 when the Dhond Abbasi leader Sardar Sherbaz Khan planned to attack the British. Sardar Khan had managed to obtain the backing of the following important tribal leaders.
Satti leader Sardar Borha Khan
Karhal leader Sardar Hasan Ali Khan
Sardar Lalli Khan and Mian Abdul Aziz of Birote
Sardar Resham Khan of Ponch Kashmir
Malik Bahadur Khan Tanoli
However the revolt did not succeed. The rebels were betrayed and as punishment, all of Sardar Sherbaz Khan's eight sons were blasted (by cannon fire) in Murree while Sardar Khan himself was hanged. The masterminds of this plan of independence were two Seyed brothers from Dhoke Syedan of Dewal Sharif. Not everyone had been against British rule, before British rule had been established in this area, the tribes had fought against the Sikh army. Under the command of the Pir of Plasi they had fought against the Sikh Army in Balakot - the troops here were commanded by Seyed Shah Ismail Shahid and Syed Ahmad Shaheed (known as the martyrs). Pir of Dewal Sharif late Abdul Majid Ahmed grandfather had also embraced martyrdom in Dewal fighting against Sikhs army chief Hari Singh Nalwa. Nalwa's troops had brutally crushed the tribes of Circle Bakote and beheaded many of them. The British, after battling in Rawalpindi in 1845 had captured Rani Jindan, the widow of Ranjit Singh (the former Ruler of Punjab) - this then caused the collapse of Sikh rule, when the British marched into the Murree area all the local tribes initially welcomed them with roses. Within a short space of time, many of the tribes then felt they had exchanged one form occupation for another one, and it was events elsewhere in India which encouraged the uprising. However the British had recruited many of the tribes in this area into their army, for example in this area large numbers of the Satti Tribe were recruited as Sepoys into the British Army and the British commanders (like elsewhere across Colonial India) won this war largely by the use of native infantry.

(http://pakgeotagging.blogspot.com/2015/04/punjab-rebellion-of-1857.html?m=1)

The ultimate leader of all the tribes was Sherbaz Khan Abbasi. The masterminds of this plan of independence were Sardar Hasan Ali khan Karlal & the two Seyed brothers from Dhoke Syedan of Dewal Sharif. Sardar Hasan Ali Khan along with his tribe, and with the help of certain other tribes of Murree, tried to attack the Murree garrison.[5] Immediately after the conclusion of the war of independence of 1857, the British Government constructed a road linking Galyiat and Muree and establish the five cantonments of Bara Gali, Nathia Gali, Dounga Gali, Changla Gali, and Kouza Gali and garrisoned them to protect any future incursion of on Muree Garrison.[6]


*Attack on Murree*
By the end of August many of the British troops who had been stationed in hill stations like Murree had left to join the attack on Delhi. Rebels had taken Delhi from British control; the decision to send troops to Delhi reduced further Murree to a more defenceless state.[7]However Delhi still held out against the British and encouraged by this Dhund tribesmen in alliance with other tribes of Murree tried to seize Murree by simultaneously rising on every side and crowding up the nearer hill-sides threatening destruction of the station. Several of the Mussulman table-servants were in league with the hill-men, and for some hours the danger to Murree became imminent.[7]

The attack failed due to the fidelity of one of Lady Lawrence's personal attendants, named Hakim Khan, himself an influential man of one of the tribes that had risen. The loyalty of Hakim was described as "the means, under God, of saving Murree."[8] Alerted to the danger the British organised defences, and quickly rallied volunteers commanded by Major Luard of the 55th N.I. and Captain HC Johnstone of the 5th N.I. A cordon of sentries surrounded the station and the three weakest points were held in some force; so the Dhoonds (the distinctive name of these disaffected hillmen), stealing up the hill-sides in the dead of night found the whole station waiting for them.[7]

After a few hours of skirmishing the Dhonds retreated with the loss of two or three of their men who had come within musket range of the British. The British however were to learn that the rebellion was wider than just the Dhonds. After the repulse of the Dhoonds, it was found that the conspiracy affected many more clans at a much wider extent than had been suspected. It had reached far into Hazara and nearly down to Rawalpindi.[7]

The British also convicted and executed two Hindustani doctors for being involved in the plot. They had been educated in government institutions, were practicing in Murree and employed by the government. The British suspected that the Dhonds were expecting support from their Hindustani allies, so in addition to the doctors, several domestic servants were seized and punished. An urgent request was sent to troops in Hazara to reinforce Murree, and Major Beecher sent every available man from Abbottabad to Murree. However the British troops in Murree had managed to secure the station and beat off the attack before the arrival of reinforcements arrived.

Although the British had managed to repulse the attack on Murree town, two neighboring heights were held by the Dhund tribesmen. The British in Murree were unable to send men to tackle the tribesmen in the hills as these were needed for the defense.. For the whole of 2 September 1857 the heights around Murree were held by the tribesmen. It was not until 3 September with the arrival of reinforcements that the tribesmen were repulsed from the hills.[9]

The reinforcements themselves were almost ambushed.[10] They had to cross difficult country full or morasses and defiles. The tribesmen belonging from various tribes of Murree who had scattered into the forest laid an ambush to cut them off; However, the road on which the trap was laid became impassable from the rains. The force turned off, and not till it had passed the ambush spot.[8]

Murree was garrisoned with extra troops and supplies of food; the British then burnt the rebellious villages, confiscated cattle and men were seized.[9]


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## Kabira

Braith said:


> But did i say that Pashtuns on both sides of border should distance themselves from each other?.......
> 
> Afghan civil war of 90s was imminent in the absence of central authority and in the presence of so many factions of mujahideen



Cultural exchange/relations should be more important instead of interfering in each other countries through proxy wars because no one give up land willingly. Even though Pakistan was safe throughout 80, and 90 but eventually they did come back to bite us.


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## Tergon18

save_ghenda said:


> Name of traitors.  I'm sure these people were compensated by British for their loyalty and their descendants are probably now politicians.
> 
> "Makhdoom Shah Mahmud Qureshi Multan"
> 
> This name sound familiar.



What do you think would have happened if the Nawab of Bahawalpur joined the war on the side of the rebels as requested in the letter sent to him. Could British rule have possibly been overthrown from Punjab and the Bahawalpur Daudpotra Abbasis been made rulers of an Azad Punjab?


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## Kabira

Tergon18 said:


> What do you think would have happened if the Nawab of Bahawalpur joined the war on the side of the rebels as requested in the letter sent to him. Could British rule have possibly been overthrown from Punjab and the Bahawalpur Daudpotra Abbasis been made rulers of an Azad Punjab?



Who knows? Many tribes supported British against sikhs and same tribes then joined hands with British to crush rebels.


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## Tergon18

save_ghenda said:


> Who knows? Many tribes supported British against sikhs and same tribes then joined hands with British to crush rebels.



Hmm. Well, even if they had managed to do that it would have only lasted for a short while and the British surely would have regrouped and attacked once more and captured Punjab again due to their superior millitary technology and funds.

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## Kabira

Tergon18 said:


> Hmm. Well, even if they had managed to do that it would have only lasted for a short while and the British surely would have regrouped and attacked once more and captured Punjab again due to their superior millitary technology and funds.



True.


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## Kharral

Tergon18 said:


> For a long time I was under the impression that during the rebellion of 1857 in India, Punjab remained totally peaceful and there was no disturbance at all. However, as I read more about this event and especially when I focused on Punjab I realized that I was only partially correct. It is true that Punjab was mostly peaceful and cooperating with the British Raj. But there was widespread disaffection among the units of Bengal Army, which led to many tragic events. Even among the civilians some fierce resistance was shown at a few places.
> 
> I shall start from the civilian resistance to the British Raj. Here I found only two incidents. One in the Gogera district led by Rai Ahmad Khan Kharal, and the second to a more limited scale in the Murree hills. I already have written a post on the same blog on Rai Ahmad Khan Kharal. While searching about Rai Ahmad Kharal I found many little pieces of information here and there on the net.But the best was a research paper by Turab ul Hassan Sargana, titled Gugera Movement 1857: Nature, Extent and Significance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Tomb of Rai Ahmad Khan Kharal (31° 04' 28.50" N, 73° 20' 01.70" E)*
> 
> *Gugera Movement 1857: Nature, Extent and Significance*
> 
> *Turab-ul-Hassan Sargana*
> 
> The Gugera uprising was the most widespread and serious rising within the borders of the Punjab and or a while threatened the British fortunes in that quarter. It quickly engulfed the important stations of Kamalia, Pindi Sheikh Musa, Syedwala, Harrappa, Chichawatni, Tulumba, Serai Sidhu, Shorkot, Jamlera, Sahooka, Kaboola and Pakpattan. The numerical strength of the freedom-fighters can be noted by report of R.C. Temple, secretary to Chief Commissioner, according to which an official of the postal department informed the Chief Commissioner that the numbers of the freedom fighters amounted to exactly 125000 men. Elphinstone the officiating Deputy Commissioner of Gugera confirmed it by saying that all the native accounts agreed that the whole country as far as Tulumba, in the Multan District was in open insurrection. While the Census Report of 1855 tells us that the population of Gugera District was 3,08,020 and of the Multan division was 9,71,175. By this one can well imagine what a large number of people rose against the British in this area. Popularity of this movement can also be judged by this that the Muslim women were also sighted in action, “moving along the tops of the houses with their skirts stretched out, so as to cover the matchlock-men as they crept about from point to point.
> 
> The significance of Gugera uprising can be seen in the words of Cave-Browne who maintained that the crisis during these days of September until the fall of Delhi was even greater and of more consequences for British survival than that marking the months of May and June.
> 
> Gugera, now a town in District Okara in the Punjab Province, was a district of Multan Division in 1857. It was given the status of district by the British East India Company Government in 1852, three years after the annexation of the Punjab. It was situated on the south bank of the River Ravi and upon the old military road from Lahore to Multan, 40 kilometers to the North-East of the present station Sahiwal1 At Gugera, local tribes, Kharrals, Wuttoos, Fatianas, Qureshis, Kathias, Wehniwals Mardanas, Tarhanas and Baghelas under the leadership of Ahmad Khan Kharral rose up against the British on September 17, 1857 but before this three important events had been happened which set the mind of the tribes to rise.
> 
> First, on July 8, 1857, at the village of Lukhoke in the Pakpattan tehsil the people of Joiya tribe refused to pay the land revenue to the British authorities. The British attacked the village, and a large number of people were fined and imprisoned in the Gugera jail.Secondly, on July 26, 1857 the prisoners in the Gugera jail made a desperate attempt to affect their escape during the night. In this attempt, 17 prisoners were shot in the fray, 33 wounded and 18 succeeded to escape. According to native accounts, about 145 prisoners were killed and it is also said that more than 100 British or native soldiers were also killed in this encounter. Another important event was that at the end of May, 1857 news of the uprising of the Hurriana Light Infantry and of the Irregular Cavalry stationed there reached Gugera. The British authorities of District Gugera decided to send a force there. According to folklore, at this occasion, Berkley, the Extra Assistant Commissioner of Gugera, asked Ahmad Khan Kharral to provide men and horses for this campaign but Kharral refused to do so. Here is a beautiful dialogue between Berkley and Ahmad Khan in this song.
> 
> The Englishman Berkley says, "Provide me mares, Rai Ahmad and I will secure a citation for you from London". *Rai Ahmad says, “No one in his life ever shares wives, land and mares with others”.* On the night of September 16, 1857, *Sarfraz Khan Kharral *of Kamalia, a rival of Ahmad Khan Kharral informed N.W. Elphinstone officiating Deputy Commissioner Gugera about the intended uprising of the tribes. As soon as Elphinstone got this information, he immediately sent Berkley with 20 horsemen to arrest Ahmad Khan Kharral but he failed to do so. Berkley burnt the town of Jhamra and returned with 20 prisoners and 700 cattle. On 20th September Elphinstone dispatched Lieutenant Chichester and Lieutenant Mitchel to attack the freedom-fighters who might have been assembled at Pindi Sheikh Musa and its suburbs. They found no freedom-fighters there, burnt the town of Pindi Shiekh Musa and returned. On 21st September, the British attacked Ahmad Khan Kharral and his companions at a place
> Gishkowree. In this battle 14 or 15 horsemen of the British were killed but they succeeded to martyr Ahmad Khan Kharral and Sarung, the Chief of the Bege Ke Kharrals. Although British had to face severe loss in this expedition but it was an irreparable disaster to the freedom-fighters. The martyrdom of Ahmad Khan Kharral created a feeling of revenge in the people of whole area. On 22nd September, the very next day of martyrdom of Ahmad Khan Kharral, the men of Fatiana, Tarhana and Mardana tribes led by their chiefs Bahawal, Salabat and Walidad respectively assesmbled and attacked Berkley and his men. Berkley was killed along with 50 men of his detachment. According to British records as well as native accounts, the first fatal blow was struck by Murad Fatiana. In October, the British gathered their all forces at Gugera. Reinforcements reached there from Lahore, Multan, Gujranwala, Jhang and Leiah. Commissioner Lahore A.A. Roberts and Commissioner Multan Major G.W. Hamilton arrived Gugera with their allies. Among them prominent were Makhdoom Shah Mahmud Qureshi of Multan Mustafa Khan Khakwani, Sadik Muhammad Khan Badozai, the Chiefs of the Lungrial clan, Bahawal and Machhia, *Sarfraz Khan Kharral *of Kamalia, Ziadat Khan Daha of Khanewal and his son, Dhara Sing Nakai of Gugera, Khair-ud-Din Khan of Kasur, Bawa Khem Singh Bedi of Rawalpindi, Sardar Nihal Singh of Rawalpindi, Jeevay Khan Araeen of Village Akbar (now in district Sahiwal) and Bawa Hardit Singh of Rawalpindi.
> 
> On the contrary, the freedom-fighters could not get help from anywhere. Delhi had been re-captured by the British on September 20, 1857. As the leaders of the freedom-fighters were fully conscious that their warfare could not equal that of the government, therefore, they requested Nawab of Bahawalpur to come forward but he refused to help them. Only due to their enthusiasm, bravery and power of faith they succeeded to continue their struggle even till January 1858. At last some of them surrendered and the Gugera uprising was crushed by the British. According to native accounts hundreds were blown from canons and a number of people were imprisoned for life. A countless number of people were sent to Andaman Islands popularly known as “Kala Pani” or Black Water. Among them who were sent to Andaman or Kala Pani, prominent were Bahawal Fatiana, Murad Fatiana, Mokha Wehniwal, Majhi Bushaira Kharral, Lal son of Ghazi Kathia, Muhammad Yar Mardana, Rehmat Khan, Kada Mardana, Walidad Mardana, Chief of his tribe and Nadir Shah Qureshi of Pindi Sheikh Musa.
> 
> The Gugera Movement was the most widespread and serious uprising within the borders of the Punjab, and for a while, threatened the foundation of the British rule in the region. It started from Jhamra and Gugera and quickly engulfed the important stations of Kamalia, Pindi Sheikh Musa, Saiyyidwala, Harappa, Chichawatni, Tulumba, Serai Sidhu, Shorkot, Jamlaira, Sahuka, Kabula and Pakpattan. The strength of the freedomfighters can be estimated from the report of R.C. Temple, Secretary to the Chief Commissioner, according to which a Muslim official of the postal department informed the Chief Commissioner that the numbers of the freedom-fighters amounted to exactly 1,25,000 men. The statement of Elphinstone, the Officiating Deputy Commissioner of Gugera, also confirms the strength of the freedom-fighters that the whole country as far as Tulumba, in District Multan, was in open insurrection. While the Census Report of 1855 tells us that the population of Gugera District was 3,08,020 and of the Multan division was 9,71,175. By this one can imagine that what a large number of people rose against the British in this area. The popularity of this Movement can be judged by the fact that even the Muslim women were also sighted in action, “moving along the tops of the houses with their skirts stretched out, so as to cover the matchlockmen as they crept about from point to point”. Reinforcements for the British were rushed from all possible quarters, i.e. Jhang, Leiah, and Gujranwala and repeatedly from Lahore and Multan. Still the freedom-fighters did not give up, and even the fall of Delhi failed to discourage them. Twice the freedom-fighters succeeded in winning over the control of the town of Kamalia, but the British again occupied it. Leaders of the Gugera Movement were in close contact with the freedom-fighters of Delhi and Hansi, and on September 17, 1857, when the fierce and heroic defence of Delhi reached its peak, the Movement began. This critical situation is described by Cave-Browne, who testifies the deep anxiety among the British officers in Lahore after their communication with Multan had been cut off, and news came in that “the whole of the Gugera District was in arms”. John Lawrence was at Lahore at that time. He fully appreciated the momentousness of the danger. In the words of Cave-Browne, “[t]hough he had risked everything for Delhi, and Delhi had now fallen, all might still be lost if that spirit of unrest which was astir throughout the Punjab were once allowed to gain head”.
> 
> The Provincial Government deliberately underrated the Gugera Movement by asserting that it was not dangerous but difficult to be suppressed. On the contrary, Cave-Browne maintained that the crisis during these days of September until the fall of Delhi was even greater and of more consequences for the British survival than that marking the months of May and June. Ahmad Khan Kharral, the mastermind behind this Movement, was reported to have been in constant communication with the freedom-fighters of Delhi and Hansi, and with the Mughal Emperor himself. He publically renounced his allegiance to the British and claimed to fight under the orders of Emperor Bahadur Shah. Other Muslim Chiefs who participated in the Gugera Movement included several leaders, like Nadir Shah Qureshi of Pindi Sheikh Musa, Walidad of Mardana Clan, Salabat of Tarhana Clan, Mokha of Vehniwal Clan, Bahlak Wuttoo of Wuttoo Clan, Mehr Bahawal and Mehr Murad of Fatiana Clan, and Muhamand Khan of Kathia Clan.
> 
> *The British authors have tried to devalue this movement, and defame its leaders by calling them cattle-lifters and thieves.* However, the historical record does not verify this assertion. Even the opinion of some British officers contradicts it. Major F.C. Marsden, Deputy Commissioner Gugera, reported, “When I reached Gugera, I found it had been attacked by the powerful clan of Kharral under their old chief, Ahmad Khan, a wealthy, determined old patriarch”. According to Montgomery Gazetteer, Ahmad Khan Kharral was an exceptional leader with qualities of head and heart. He was courageous and bold and it was he who had roused the people. Even after a century and a half, he is remembered as a hero in the folklore and folk songs. A folk song or _dhola _testifies the above-mentioned statement of Marsden as such: He was chief of all clans. He had been resisting previous government. Ranjit Singh avoided confrontation with him and used to bypass his areas. Similarly, about another leader of the Gugera Movement, Mehr Bahawal Fatiana, Cave-Browne wrote that he was thegreatest man among them, the bravest and most influential. Another leader, Murad Fatiana has been tributed in a song in this way: There is no chief like Murad, although a number of people wear white dress. The people of Ravi remember him and wish that if once Murad, son of Dalail, could come back.
> 
> The people of the Punjab still have great respect and devotion for the leaders of resistance, and consider them as their hero. The objective of the leaders of the Gugera Movement can be clearly assessed from the letters written by these leaders. For instance, Bahawal Fatiana, Salabat Tarhana and Sarung Vehniwal wrote a letter to Woordie-Major Mir Barkat Ali of 1st Irregular Cavalry, requesting him to leave the British army and help them against the British. They offered him the leadership of their resistance movement, and they were ready to afford all expanses for the feeding all the men and horses, which he might bring along. They wanted to get his support for the independence of their country from the yoke of the British. Similarly, some leaders of the Gugera Movement named Muhamand Kathia, Nathu Kathia, Murad Kathia, Amir Kathia and Lal Kathia, Bahawal Fatiana and Salabat Tarhana wrote a letter to the Nawab of Bahawalpur, in which they wrote:
> 
> "Whereas intelligence was received to the effect that the King of Delhi was making war against the English Government for the sake of establishing Muslim regime under the Divine command, on hearing this happy news, all the _Zamindars _of this country rose up for struggle against the English authorities of the Multan Division. Accordingly, we are fighting against them upto the present time…if you are firm in the religion of Islam, we have about 18000 fighting men ready to serve wherever your highness may require them…we beg that, for the sake of God and his Prophet, your highness may lend your hand and assist us, for which you will be rewarded at the Day of Judgement".
> 
> If we analyze these letters impartially, the correct picture of the designs of the leaders of the Gugera Movement becomes clear. They were not thieves or cattle-lifters, rather they were rich and influential people of their areas, and the people had great love and respect for them. For example the Superintendent of Gugera jail had great devotion for Ahmad Khan, and allowed him to visit the jail inspite of strict restrictions by the British authorities. Similarly, the guard refused to give boats to Berkeley, Extra Assistant Commissioner, since Ahmad Khan had ordered him not to do so, and he considered Ahmad Khan as the king of the area. The above-mentioned letter of the freedom-fighters also reveals that they tried to invoke religious symbols for mustering the support of the Nawab of Bahawalpur. For them, revival of Islam meant restoration of political authority of the Muslims. In other words, for them revival or protection of Islam was not possible without establishing Muslim political authority. It was a pre-requisite for their desired protection of Islam. So they were ready to sacrifice their lives as well as their property for this purpose. In the end we may conclude that the leaders of the Gugera Movement were neither thieves nor cattle-lifters, they were popular leaders of the people in their respective areas in the Punjab, who led the resistance movement at various places in the province. They were neither rulers, nor sepoys, but were freedom-fighters. *They had no personal grievances against the British. Neither their jagirs were confiscated, nor their pensions stopped. They fought for a noble cause which was to eliminate foreign rule from their homeland.*
> 
> From
> http://pakgeotagging.blogspot.com/2015/04/punjab-rebellion-of-1857.html?m=1



Of all the traitors & back stabber this Man's betrayal hurts me the most. Much as I am proud of our ancestors this man puts me to shame. 

The cattle lifting & Robbery started after the end of the rebellion as majority of the lands in our ownership & control were taken away. I do not have first hand knowledge of the situation in south Punjab & our traditional stronghold of Ravi Doab but my own elders in Gujrat & Modern day Mandi Bahaudin & Sargodha had to resort to Cattle lifting & Robbery. Though jokingly our cousins from other Jutt clans always bring this issue up to tease us, the favourite line being 'Sahi ( kharral sub clan ) Raatan jaagan de changey ne' a vieled attempt at our past. My own ancestral village along with a few adjoining villages where we finally settled upon were 'Warraich' owned villages & lands which we encroached upon, further down in Mandi Bahauddin it was the same, Sargodha prior to canals was much less inhabited & jungle like which became a natural refuge, even after the district was organised & canal colonise set up we held on to some areas. 
Another thing that I find interesting is the fact that compared to other Jutt tribes & clans of these 3 and other districts of the Punjab we have a far less participation/representation in the Armed forces to this day, which I believe is due to the British policy of rewarding & naturally trusting the more loyal communities & tribes of the land through recruitment.
Although we are better represented in police.



save_ghenda said:


> This isn't true, we all know about Dullah Bhatti but only recently I found out about Panah Bhatti who was from Gujranwala.
> 
> "In 1738, Panah Bhatti, a very powerful, Chieftain, had the whole of western Punjab, from Hasan Abdal, Attock, to the banks of the River Ravi, at his mercy, Gujranwala area, was to under his influence, but was defeated, by the Muslim Mughal Governors, of Lahore. Panah Bhatti, was captured and killed."
> 
> Or this
> 
> "*After destroying the Fort of Lohgarh, the Nawab turned his attention to the supression of the recalcitrant Kharal, Gondal, Bhatti and Ranjha tribes of the bar area* [modern Faisalabad and Sheikhupura districts of Pakistan.."
> 
> These 4 tribes were 95% or even more muslims in western punjab. *I don't think gondal, ranjha and kharal sikh/hindus exist.* But I agree overall punjabi muslims didn't had much problem with Mughals, maybe thats why Adina (Mughal governor even if punjabi) used to get support easily from them against Afghans or later on against Sikhs. More persian manuscripts needs to be translated to get clear picture of history of this region.



Gondals & Ranjhas have hardly any Sikhs or Hindus but we Kharrals have a couple of sub clans ( mostly Lakhera Kharrals )who stayed Hindus most of which we expelled from the Bar & Doab towards modern day Himachal Pardesh & Nepal. Apparently there is a sizeable kharral community in Nepal which descends from the ones expelled nearly a millennia ago. 
I have also come across Kharrals who are Sikhs although they are minute in numbers.

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## Tergon18

Braith said:


> And its not like Mughals sent marriage proposals to Muslim Rajputs of Punjab.........they were simply not considered. They needed the military assets of Rajputana, not of petty zamindars of Punjab, so preferred the former for matrimonial alliance.



Mughal emperor Bahadur Shah I's mother was the daughter of Raja Tajuddin Khan, the Jarral chief of Rajauri (which is near Mirpur), and was the wife of Aurangzeb.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahadur_Shah_I



SarthakGanguly said:


> Yeah, and why should they not? They were ruled for almost a century by the Marathas



Punjab at that time was de-facto independent under Punjabi Musalman ruler Adina Khan Arain, who only paid some indemnity to the Marathas for a few years, but was otherwise autonomous.



Mentee said:


> Marthas came in for some years only to be butchered by Punjabis as for the Sikh rule over Punjab , it by far proved to be a blessing for Punjab , (after all we are the same group of people with different Faiths) with Punjabi maharaja ranjit singhs Punjabi Muslim chief minister------ and don't spew lies on the pretext of religion.



While many Punjabi Muslims offered resistance and fought the Misls during the rise of Sukerchakia Misl of Ranjit Singh..







However after battles many retained their power and became semi-autonomous vassals





So, while not fully secular, his rule could be describe as secular to some degree.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Kharral said:


> Of all the traitors & back stabber this Man's betrayal hurts me the most. Much as I am proud of our ancestors this man puts me to shame.
> 
> The cattle lifting & Robbery started after the end of the rebellion as majority of the lands in our ownership & control were taken away. I do not have first hand knowledge of the situation in south Punjab & our traditional stronghold of Ravi Doab but my own elders in Gujrat & Modern day Mandi Bahaudin & Sargodha had to resort to Cattle lifting & Robbery. Though jokingly our cousins from other Jutt clans always bring this issue up to tease us, the favourite line being 'Sahi ( kharral sub clan ) Raatan jaagan de changey ne' a vieled attempt at our past. My own ancestral village along with a few adjoining villages where we finally settled upon were 'Warraich' owned villages & lands which we encroached upon, further down in Mandi Bahauddin it was the same, Sargodha prior to canals was much less inhabited & jungle like which became a natural refuge, even after the district was organised & canal colonise set up we held on to some areas.
> Another thing that I find interesting is the fact that compared to other Jutt tribes & clans of these 3 and other districts of the Punjab we have a far less participation/representation in the Armed forces to this day, which I believe is due to the British policy of rewarding & naturally trusting the more loyal communities & tribes of the land through recruitment.
> Although we are better represented in police.
> 
> 
> 
> Gondals & Ranjhas have hardly any Sikhs or Hindus but we Kharrals have a couple of sub clans ( mostly Lakhera Kharrals )who stayed Hindus most of which we expelled from the Bar & Doab towards modern day Himachal Pardesh & Nepal. Apparently there is a sizeable kharral community in Nepal which descends from the ones expelled nearly a millennia ago.
> I have also come across Kharrals who are Sikhs although they are minute in numbers.


Do you claim to be jatts? because the kharrals of Kamalia,Gugera and even Pindi Bhattia claim to be Rajputs..

A friend of mine has a Kharral friend (direct descendant of Rai Ahmed Khan) and they proudly claim to be Rajputs and maintain that they dont marry outside their community.

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## Tergon18

Rai Ahmad Khan Kharral's resting place at Jhamra






It was built by his grandson, Rai Ali Muhammad Khan Kharral






(from Facebook page: https://m.facebook.com/RAI-AHMED-KHAN-KHARALShaheed-Official-464479400324958/)

The grave of Rai Ahmad Khan






Inscription at grave






Leader of British forces, the Englishman Lord Berkeley, who was killed by Murad Fatiana at Sahiwal during the Rebellion






Son of Rai Ahmad, Rai Jagday Khan Kharral






Portrait of Rai Ahmad Khan Kharral:

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## Braith

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Do you claim to be jatts? because the kharrals of Kamalia,Gugera and even Pindi Bhattia claim to be Rajputs..
> 
> A friend of mine has a Kharral friend (direct descendant of Rai Ahmed Khan) and they proudly claim to be Rajputs and maintain that they dont marry outside their community.


Are you Punjabi from mother side?............i have seen your pictures and your facial features is of Punjabi rather than of a Marri-Baloch. Your complexion is dark but Balochs are generally also very dark .......You did tell us that your family has intermarried a lot with other ethnic groups.. Your extreme anger against members who say some thing even slightest against Punjabis, tells it that you have Punjabi blood in you .You occasionally (half-heartily) defend your Pashtun and Mohajir countrymen when you have to bash Indians and Afghans, but mostly either you are indifferent or display hostility against these two groups, particularly against the former. For example on this very thread you threw taunt of Babur taking Pashtun wife in knee-jerk-reaction to an imagined insult against Punjabis, while i simply stated that "Two Ghakkar women entered into the royal harem"............how is a Muslim woman from Ghakkar tribe marrying a Muslim prince from Mughal, an insult against Punjabis?.......Rajputs are given taunts because they gave Hindu brides to Muslim Kings........

About your taunt against Pashtuns, that Bibi Yousafzai married Babur, even though latter was enemy of her tribe.............. Many Pashtun tribes were allied to Babur for example Gigyanis, Kheshgis, Daudzais, Dilazaks etc and more than half of Babur's army consisted of Pashtuns. .Babur visited a Yousafzai sangar in the guise of a faqeer and saw Bibi Mubarika distributing food among the poor.....he was impressed by her beauty and character, and decided to marry her. Gulbadan Begum (daughter of Babur) gives detailed account of Bibi Mubarika in her book humayun-nama, and we are told that it was Mubarika who brought the bones of Babur to Kabul after taking permission from Sher Shah Suri. Keep in mind that Babur wanted to forge alliance with Pashtuns, evident from the fact that all of the nobles he recruited in India were Pashtuns, but the latter could not digest the fact that they were royals just few years ago and deserted him and his son as soon as they would join. Sher Shah Suri's episode further created resentment between these two rivals and Safavid monarch advised Humayun to consult Rajputs instead of Pashtuns for support. When Akbar tried to marry daughter of Islam Shah, all the Afghan nobles opposed his move and he gave up on the idea. When Bairam Khan, tried to marry the Pashtun princess with his son, he was murdered by Pashtuns in Gujarat. Mannuci in 17th century tells us that Pashtuns nobles of the court look down upon the Mughals and dont marry with them...........so Bibi Mubarika's case is an exception ..........there were no "Pashtun queens" in Mughal harem.......just one case in the entire history of Mughals, as they were forced to choose Rajputs due to fierce opposition and enmity from Afghans.



Tergon18 said:


> Mughal emperor Bahadur Shah I's mother was the daughter of Raja Tajuddin Khan, the Jarral chief of Rajauri (which is near Mirpur), and was the wife of Aurangzeb.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahadur_Shah_I
> 
> 
> 
> Punjab at that time was de-facto independent under Punjabi Musalman ruler Adina Khan Arain, who only paid some indemnity to the Marathas for a few years, but was otherwise autonomous.
> 
> 
> 
> While many Punjabi Muslims offered resistance and fought the Misls during the rise of Sukerchakia Misl of Ranjit Singh..
> 
> View attachment 341605
> 
> 
> However after battles many retained their power and became semi-autonomous vassals
> View attachment 341616
> 
> 
> So, while not fully secular, his rule could be describe as secular to some degree.


He decrees to ban azaan and cow-slaughter, clearly makes him non-secular.


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## Mentee

Tergon18 said:


> Mughal emperor Bahadur Shah I's mother was the daughter of Raja Tajuddin Khan, the Jarral chief of Rajauri (which is near Mirpur), and was the wife of Aurangzeb.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahadur_Shah_I
> 
> 
> 
> Punjab at that time was de-facto independent under Punjabi Musalman ruler Adina Khan Arain, who only paid some indemnity to the Marathas for a few years, but was otherwise autonomous.
> 
> 
> 
> While many Punjabi Muslims offered resistance and fought the Misls during the rise of Sukerchakia Misl of Ranjit Singh..
> 
> View attachment 341605
> 
> 
> However after battles many retained their power and became semi-autonomous vassals
> View attachment 341616
> 
> 
> So, while not fully secular, his rule could be describe as secular to some degree.


Point well taken


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## lastofthepatriots

Braith said:


> Are you Punjabi from mother side?............i have seen your pictures and your facial features is of Punjabi rather than of a Marri-Baloch. Your complexion is dark but Balochs are generally also very dark .......You did tell us that your family has intermarried a lot with other ethnic groups.. Your extreme anger against members who say some thing even slightest against Punjabis, tells it that you have Punjabi blood in you .You occasionally (half-heartily) defend your Pashtun and Mohajir countrymen when you have to bash Indians and Afghans, but mostly either you are indifferent or display hostility against these two groups, particularly against the former. For example on this very thread you threw taunt of Babur taking Pashtun wife in knee-jerk-reaction to an imagined insult against Punjabis, while i simply stated that "Two Ghakkar women entered into the royal harem"............how is a Muslim woman from Ghakkar tribe marrying a Muslim prince from Mughal, an insult against Punjabis?.......Rajputs are given taunts because they gave Hindu brides to Muslim Kings........
> 
> About your taunt against Pashtuns, that Bibi Yousafzai married Babur, even though latter was enemy of her tribe.............. Many Pashtun tribes were allied to Babur for example Gigyanis, Kheshgis, Daudzais, Dilazaks etc and more than half of Babur's army consisted of Pashtuns. .Babur visited a Yousafzai sangar in the guise of a faqeer and saw Bibi Mubarika distributing food among the poor.....he was impressed by her beauty and character, and decided to marry her. Gulbadan Begum (daughter of Babur) gives detailed account of Bibi Mubarika in her book humayun-nama, and we are told that it was Mubarika who brought the bones of Babur to Kabul after taking permission from Sher Shah Suri. Keep in mind that Babur wanted to forge alliance with Pashtuns, evident from the fact that all of the nobles he recruited in India were Pashtuns, but the latter could not digest the fact that they were royals just few years ago and deserted him and his son as soon as they would join. Sher Shah Suri's episode further created resentment between these two rivals and Safavid monarch advised Humayun to consult Rajputs instead of Pashtuns for support. When Akbar tried to marry daughter of Islam Shah, all the Afghan nobles opposed his move and he gave up on the idea. When Bairam Khan, tried to marry the Pashtun princess with his son, he was murdered by Pashtuns in Gujarat. Mannuci in 17th century tells us that Pashtuns nobles of the court look down upon the Mughals and dont marry with them...........so Bibi Mubarika's case is an exception ..........there were no "Pashtun queens" in Mughal harem.......just one case in the entire history of Mughals, as they were forced to choose Rajputs due to fierce opposition and enmity from Afghans.
> 
> 
> He decrees to ban azaan and cow-slaughter, clearly makes him non-secular.



Yaar tanda ho ja. Tumara dimagh itna mota he ke tum larai shuru karnay ke liyeh tayaar ho jaate ho.

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## Braith

lastofthepatriots said:


> Tumara dimagh itna mota he ke tum.


Thanda rako. Itna ghusa kyun ho janab? tumari dum par paon ruk diya kiya?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Braith said:


> Are you Punjabi from mother side?............i have seen your pictures and your facial features is of Punjabi rather than of a Marri-Baloch. Your complexion is dark but Balochs are generally also very dark .......You did tell us that your family has intermarried a lot with other ethnic groups.. Your extreme anger against members who say some thing even slightest against Punjabis, tells it that you have Punjabi blood in you



Nope.. iI equally defend all including ethnic minorities and unlike you im not a secterian or ethnic insect.

You are the same insect who was labelling NLI troops as evil shias who hate sunnis and the same being the reason for them being deployed .,, The same turd who uploaded morphed pics of Jinnah to insult him... the same clown to told us about the army airlifting your family and how overjoyed you were.. only to again go back to the same Anti Pak,Anti Army bashing ...

And i do get angry everytime some afghani or indian turds talks about any ethnic group of Pak unlike mutts like you..






> .You occasionally (half-heartily) defend your Pashtun and Mohajir countrymen when you have to bash Indians and Afghans,


Half Heartily? lol.. indians and afghans hardly talk shyt about pashtuns.. infact most afghans here are Pashtun... so spare me your nonsense.



> but mostly either you are indifferent or display hostility against these two groups, particularly against the former



And amazingly no Pashtun or Urdu speaker (whom you moan against all the time... for the Pashtun jokes & how the urdu speakers controlled media houses stereotyped the Pashtuns etc nonsense) here except a haramkhor like you takes notice?


> For example on this very thread you threw taunt of Babur taking Pashtun wife in knee-jerk-reaction to an imagined insult against Punjabis, while i simply stated that "Two Ghakkar women entered into the royal harem"............how is a Muslim woman from Ghakkar tribe marrying a Muslim prince from Mughal, an insult against Punjabis?.......Rajputs are given taunts because they gave Hindu brides to Muslim Kings........



And before that you a pathelogical liar .. tried to insult my people... several times calling our folk heroes as thugs and cattle robbers and whatnot.... How many times have i reacted before to your chutiyapa against my people?* I stand down as to not insult the Pashtun countrymen of mine because of some marwat clown from Lucky who is himself a low caste type wannabe Khan...*

you are such a pathetic clown (with your multiple fake ids and your pathetic habbit of being a third class lying haramkhor)


> About your taunt against Pashtuns, that Bibi Yousafzai married Babur, even though latter was enemy of her .......t....... Many Pashtun tribes were allied to Babur for example Gigyanis, Kheshgis, Daudzais, Dilazaks etc and more than half of Babur's army consisted of Pashtuns. .Babur visited a Yousafzai sangar in the guise of a faqeer and saw Bibi Mubarika distributing food among the poor.....he was impressed by her beauty and character, and decided to marry her. Gulbadan Begum (daughter of Babur) gives detailed account of Bibi Mubarika in her book humayun-nama, and we are told that it was Mubarika who brought the bones of Babur to Kabul after taking permission from Sher Shah Suri. Keep in mind that Babur wanted to forge alliance with Pashtuns, evident from the fact that all of the nobles he recruited in India were Pashtuns, but the latter could not digest the fact that they were royals just few years ago and deserted him and his son as soon as they would join. Sher Shah Suri's episode further created resentment between these two rivals and Safavid monarch advised Humayun to consult Rajputs instead of Pashtuns for support. When Akbar tried to marry daughter of Islam Shah, all the Afghan nobles opposed his move and he gave up on the idea. When Bairam Khan, tried to marry the Pashtun princess with his son, he was murdered by Pashtuns in Gujarat. Mannuci in 17th century tells us that Pashtuns nobles of the court look down upon the Mughals and dont marry with them...........so Bibi Mubarika's case is an exception ..........there were no "Pashtun queens" in Mughal harem.......just one case in the entire history of Mughals, as they were forced to choose Rajputs due to fierce opposition and enmity from Afghans.



Hardly anybody gives a flyin fuk.. you are the same pathetic loser who even moans against your own kin like Khattaks and what not. Not to forget about your hatred for QA Jinnah and Pakistan in general ... aswell as all other ethnic groups of the country and your pathetic fake sense of superiority over other ethnic groups?

well screw you.


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## Braith

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Nope.. iI equally defend all including ethnic minorities and unlike you im not a secterian or ethnic insect.
> 
> You are the same insect who was labelling NLI troops as evil shias who hate sunnis and the same being the reason for them being deployed .,, The same turd who uploaded morphed pics of Jinnah to insult him... the same clown to told us about the army airlifting your family and how overjoyed you were.. only to again go back to the same Anti Pak,Anti Army bashing ...
> 
> And i do get angry everytime some afghani or indian turds talks about any ethnic group of Pak unlike mutts like you..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Half Heartily? lol.. indians and afghans hardly talk shyt about pashtuns.. infact most afghans here are Pashtun... so spare me your nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> And amazingly no Pashtun or Urdu speaker (whom you moan against all the time... for the Pashtun jokes & how the urdu speakers controlled media houses stereotyped the Pashtuns etc nonsense) here except a haramkhor like you takes notice?
> 
> 
> And before that you a pathelogical liar .. tried to insult my people... several times calling our folk heroes as thugs and cattle robbers and whatnot.... How many times have i reacted before to your chutiyapa against my people?* I stand down as to not insult the Pashtun countrymen of mine because of some marwat clown from Lucky who is himself a low caste type wannabe Khan...*
> 
> you are such a pathetic clown (with your multiple fake ids and your pathetic habbit of being a third class lying haramkhor)
> 
> 
> Hardly anybody gives a flyin fuk.. you are the same pathetic loser who even moans against your own kin like Khattaks and what not. Not to forget about your hatred for QA Jinnah and Pakistan in general ... aswell as all other ethnic groups of the country and your pathetic fake sense of superiority over other ethnic groups?
> 
> well screw you.


Why you are so angry and why you are resorting to name callings ?

And you are not making any sense , its gibberish. Kindly respond to my history-ridden post like an educated person, not like some Jahil throwing temper tantrum.

About your Baloch history.......i did not degrade it, i merely corrected it.....that Mir Chakar was no king, and that no Baloch princely state existed in the present-day India. About Banditry, thats historical fact. Early medieval Arab and Persian sources mentions Balochs and Kochs as marauders indulged in harassing trade caravans (Refer to research work by Bosworth). Mughal historians mentions Prince Aurangzeb taking several expeditions against Baloch tribes in Balochistan to secure the peace in Multan province. Of course some Pashtun tribes along the passes with dry terrain were also indulged in banditry. 

Dont mistake history for your zahid hamid uncle's lectures


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## mughal arslan shah mirza

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Do you claim to be jatts? because the kharrals of Kamalia,Gugera and even Pindi Bhattia claim to be Rajputs..
> 
> A friend of mine has a Kharral friend (direct descendant of Rai Ahmed Khan) and they proudly claim to be Rajputs and maintain that they dont marry outside their community.



This is exactly my experience too with Kharrals. I've met Kharrals from Rai Ahmed Khan Kharral's area and they claimed to be rajputs. Others from that region also call them rajputs


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## Braith

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Telling the truth ... hurts doesnt it? Pathetic little man.


You threw taunt against Pashtuns that Babur had Pashtun wife in knee-jerk-reaction to an imagined insult against Punjabis, while i simply stated that "Two Ghakkar women entered into the royal harem"............how is a Muslim woman from Ghakkar tribe marrying a Muslim prince from Mughal, an insult against Punjabis?.......Rajputs are given taunts because they gave Hindu brides to Muslim Kings........

Many Pashtun tribes were allied to Babur for example Gigyanis, Kheshgis, Daudzais, Dilazaks etc and more than half of Babur's army consisted of Pashtuns. .Babur visited a Yousafzai sangar in the guise of a faqeer and saw Bibi Mubarika distributing food among the poor.....he was impressed by her beauty and character, and decided to marry her. Gulbadan Begum (daughter of Babur) gives detailed account of Bibi Mubarika in her book humayun-nama, and we are told that it was Mubarika who brought the bones of Babur to Kabul after taking permission from Sher Shah Suri. Keep in mind that Babur wanted to forge alliance with Pashtuns, evident from the fact that all of the nobles he recruited in India were Pashtuns, but the latter could not digest the fact that they were royals just few years ago and deserted him and his son as soon as they would join. Sher Shah Suri's episode further created resentment between these two rivals and Safavid monarch advised Humayun to consult Rajputs instead of Pashtuns for support. When Akbar tried to marry daughter of Islam Shah, all the Afghan nobles opposed his move and he gave up on the idea. When Bairam Khan, tried to marry the Pashtun princess with his son, he was murdered by Pashtuns in Gujarat. Mannuci in 17th century tells us that Pashtuns nobles of the court look down upon the Mughals and dont marry with them...........so Bibi Mubarika's case is an exception ..........there were no "Pashtun queens" in Mughal harem.......just one case in the entire history of Mughals, as they were forced to choose Rajputs due to fierce opposition and enmity from Afghans.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Braith said:


> You threw taunt against Pashtuns that Babur had Pashtun wife in knee-jerk-reaction to an imagined insult against Punjabis, while i simply stated that "Two Ghakkar women entered into the royal harem"............how is a Muslim woman from Ghakkar tribe marrying a Muslim prince from Mughal, an insult against Punjabis?.......Rajputs are given taunts because they gave Hindu brides to Muslim Kings........
> 
> Many Pashtun tribes were allied to Babur for example Gigyanis, Kheshgis, Daudzais, Dilazaks etc and more than half of Babur's army consisted of Pashtuns. .Babur visited a Yousafzai sangar in the guise of a faqeer and saw Bibi Mubarika distributing food among the poor.....he was impressed by her beauty and character, and decided to marry her. Gulbadan Begum (daughter of Babur) gives detailed account of Bibi Mubarika in her book humayun-nama, and we are told that it was Mubarika who brought the bones of Babur to Kabul after taking permission from Sher Shah Suri. Keep in mind that Babur wanted to forge alliance with Pashtuns, evident from the fact that all of the nobles he recruited in India were Pashtuns, but the latter could not digest the fact that they were royals just few years ago and deserted him and his son as soon as they would join. Sher Shah Suri's episode further created resentment between these two rivals and Safavid monarch advised Humayun to consult Rajputs instead of Pashtuns for support. When Akbar tried to marry daughter of Islam Shah, all the Afghan nobles opposed his move and he gave up on the idea. When Bairam Khan, tried to marry the Pashtun princess with his son, he was murdered by Pashtuns in Gujarat. Mannuci in 17th century tells us that Pashtuns nobles of the court look down upon the Mughals and dont marry with them...........so Bibi Mubarika's case is an exception ..........there were no "Pashtun queens" in Mughal harem.......just one case in the entire history of Mughals, as they were forced to choose Rajputs due to fierce opposition and enmity from Afghans.



Before that you were moaning about Baluch than Panjabis.. so piss off you pathetic turd.


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## Braith

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Before that you were moaning about Baluch than Panjabis.. so piss off you pathetic turd.


Answer like a civilized and educated person, not like some cave-man Jahil.

You are in history section. I am still expecting a reply from you in response to my history-ridden post. Lets see whether you come to your senses or continue to behave like a mentally retarded person.

Give an educated reply to this; 

*"You threw taunt against Pashtuns that Babur had Pashtun wife in knee-jerk-reaction to an imagined insult against Punjabis, while i simply stated that "Two Ghakkar women entered into the royal harem"............how is a Muslim woman from Ghakkar tribe marrying a Muslim prince from Mughal, an insult against Punjabis?.......Rajputs are given taunts because they gave Hindu brides to Muslim Kings........

Many Pashtun tribes were allied to Babur for example Gigyanis, Kheshgis, Daudzais, Dilazaks etc and more than half of Babur's army consisted of Pashtuns. .Babur visited a Yousafzai sangar in the guise of a faqeer and saw Bibi Mubarika distributing food among the poor.....he was impressed by her beauty and character, and decided to marry her. Gulbadan Begum (daughter of Babur) gives detailed account of Bibi Mubarika in her book humayun-nama, and we are told that it was Mubarika who brought the bones of Babur to Kabul after taking permission from Sher Shah Suri. Keep in mind that Babur wanted to forge alliance with Pashtuns, evident from the fact that all of the nobles he recruited in India were Pashtuns, but the latter could not digest the fact that they were royals just few years ago and deserted him and his son as soon as they would join. Sher Shah Suri's episode further created resentment between these two rivals and Safavid monarch advised Humayun to consult Rajputs instead of Pashtuns for support. When Akbar tried to marry daughter of Islam Shah, all the Afghan nobles opposed his move and he gave up on the idea. When Bairam Khan, tried to marry the Pashtun princess with his son, he was murdered by Pashtuns in Gujarat. Mannuci in 17th century tells us that Pashtuns nobles of the court look down upon the Mughals and dont marry with them...........so Bibi Mubarika's case is an exception ..........there were no "Pashtun queens" in Mughal harem.......just one case in the entire history of Mughals, as they were forced to choose Rajputs due to fierce opposition and enmity from Afghans.
*


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## Braith

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Fuk off you pathetlogical lying turd.


Still waiting for any thing smart and educated from you.........

Why you felt the need to target Pashtuns by throwing a taunt of Mughals marrying Pashtuns?........why you think the two royal races of medieval India , marrying each other, is an insult and some thing to be frown upon?

Mir Naseer Khan Baloch, offered his cousin to Ahmad Shah Abdali for marriage, after getting defeated in 1758......for me it was a Muslim marrying a Muslim Baloch woman.........but what are your views and feelings?


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## Tergon18

Braith said:


> Why you felt the need to target Pashtuns by throwing a taunt of Mughals marrying Pashtuns?........



Well, to be fair, you too threw 'insult' of Mughals not sending marriage proposal to Punjabi Muslims despite there was Punjabi Muslim queen of Jarral clan who was the mother of Emperor Bahadur Shah-I.

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## Kabira

Calm down guys, Mughals were weird. They married outside but never married off their daughters to anyone. The result was many of Mughal princess had to conform with eunuch servants.

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## Braith

Tergon18 said:


> Well, to be fair, you too threw 'insult' of Mughals not sending marriage proposal to Punjabi Muslims despite there was Punjabi Muslim queen of Jarral clan who was the mother of Emperor Bahadur Shah-I.


Insult? i said that Mughals would not have gained any thing, militarily speaking, by forming matrimonial alliances with petty zamindars of Punjab (Punjab did not have rajas like Rajputana)........I did mention that Ghakkars were exceptions, its because they were powerful in those times and had done a lot for Mughal cause. Nawab bai, a Kashmiri, was not a daughter of some petty zamindar, her father was a Raja...........Rajauri is not Punjab and she is mentioned as 'Kashmiri' in Mughal sources.



save_ghenda said:


> Calm down guys, Mughals were weird. They married outside but never married off their daughters to anyone. The result was many of Mughal princess had to conform with eunuch servants.


Akbar put ban on marriage of Mughal princesses as his brother-in-law rebelled against him and put claim to sovereignty on the basis of being husband to daughter of Humayun. Even Aurangzeb did not abolish this unislamic rule of their family


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## Tergon18

Braith said:


> Insult? i said that Mughals would not have gained any thing, militarily speaking, by forming matrimonial alliances with petty zamindars of Punjab (Punjab did not have rajas like Rajputana)........I did mention that Ghakkars were exceptions, its because they were powerful in those times and had done a lot for Mughal cause. Nawab bai, a Kashmiri, was not a daughter of some petty zamindar, her father was a Raja...........Rajauri is not Punjab and she is mentioned as 'Kashmiri' in Mughal sources.



Rajauri is right next to Mirpur and the entire AJK area is just an extension of Potohar, which in turn is part of Punjab. Secondly, there are many Jarrals in Punjab as well. Idk what you mean by Punjab not having 'rajas'.

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## Braith

Tergon18 said:


> Idk what you mean by Punjab not having 'rajas'.


........Powerful rulers with sizable areas under them , like those of Mewar, Marwar, Amber etc.....each of which could muster a sizable army..........

Indian Rajputs, The Hindus of Rajputana, were backbone of Mughal army.......

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## Tergon18

Braith said:


> ........Powerful rulers with sizable areas under them , like those of Mewar, Marwar, Amber etc.....each of which could muster a sizable army..........
> 
> Indian Rajputs, The Hindus of Rajputana, were backbone of Mughal army.......



There were some e.g Kapurthala Bhattis, Jarrals, Janjuas, but in general, I would agree with you.

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## mughal arslan shah mirza

Braith said:


> ...........Rajauri is not Punjab and she is mentioned as 'Kashmiri' in Mughal sources.



she has been described as a punjabi woman in some sources, i'll try to find if there's any online. Even William dalrymple calls her a punjabi-speaking woman

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## Tergon18

mughal arslan shah mirza said:


> she has been described as a punjabi woman in some sources, i'll try to find if there's any online. Even William dalrymple calls her a punjabi-speaking woman



Yeah, people of AJK area (Mirpur, Rajauri etc.) speak a dialect of Punjabi identical to Potohari. Only the Dards of the Valley are considered 'Kashmiris' and speak Dardic.

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## Kharral

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Do you claim to be jatts? because the kharrals of Kamalia,Gugera and even Pindi Bhattia claim to be Rajputs..
> 
> A friend of mine has a Kharral friend (direct descendant of Rai Ahmed Khan) and they proudly claim to be Rajputs and maintain that they dont marry outside their community.



You have raised a very interesting point here, some years ago I came across a fellow kharral from Multan through a common friend in London, the man had a go at me for not having Rai as the title & instead having Chaudhary as title ( I personally don't give a toss about either of these title ) untill I explained to him that in Gujrat, Mandi Bahaudin,Sialkot & Gujranwala districts claiming Rajput ancestory would mean inviting people to queue up for head,face & arm pit shaves outside ones house. Even Bhatti Rajputs don't use titles of Rai or Raja in the above motioned districts and are identified as Jutts in mentioned districts. 
The situation however is different in Hafizabad, Sheikhupura, Sargodha & further south in Punjab. However Mirza Jutt ( the character in one of Punjabi folklore ) was also a kharral originating in down south the Ravi bar. 
All my relations and all those that I know of are in to Jutt clans, like Warraich, Sandhu, Gondal, Ghumman, Cheema & such, I am yet to see any one from my side marrying a janjua, kiyani, chib, jaral or such Rajput tribes. 
According to whatever little information I have gathered so far & research done the concept of Rajput & a related title remained untill one remained a Hindu. 
Nearly all the jutt tribes & clans claim Rajput ancestory.

One interesting thing that I came across was an election census or report listing the representation gained by different Qaums ( castes or tribes ) in elections back in 60s. The interesting point being that we Kharrals were neither counted in/under Jutt or Rajput categories but a completely separate category of our own. This was a couple of years ago and I have since then tried to get my hands on to that peice of paper for some further insight but I have been unsuccessful so far. 

Another example being Sir Zafar ULLAH Khan, who like me hailed from the Sahi sub clan of Kharrals while his mother being from a Bajwa ( Jutt ) family in modern day Narowal. 

I hope I have made some sense & cleared any doubts that you may have.


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## mughal arslan shah mirza

Tergon18 said:


> Mughal emperor Bahadur Shah I's mother was the daughter of Raja Tajuddin Khan, the Jarral chief of Rajauri (which is near Mirpur), and was the wife of Aurangzeb.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahadur_Shah_I
> 
> 
> 
> Punjab at that time was de-facto independent under Punjabi Musalman ruler Adina Khan Arain, who only paid some indemnity to the Marathas for a few years, but was otherwise autonomous.
> 
> 
> 
> While many Punjabi Muslims offered resistance and fought the Misls during the rise of Sukerchakia Misl of Ranjit Singh..
> 
> .



Not just that, there were fights between sikhs and Gakkhars/ Janjuas. Sikhs fought Gakkhars initially in gujarat . Janjuas at the time were divided into three different sub-clans and all of them fought valiantly, sikhs carried out a sikh-month siege of one of their forts where Ranjit singh himself fought ? (read it ages ago, would post here if i find it).
Also, Adina beg's armies had Gakkhars and Janjuas and were backed by these and other punjabi clans.

Some writer I was reading mentioned that imagine if all these clans had united? The big question is as to why there was hardly much unity amongst punjabi muslims. In fact there were sub-clan rivalries that cost them let alone uniting across clan lines



Tergon18 said:


> Yeah, people of AJK area (Mirpur, Rajauri etc.) speak a dialect of Punjabi identical to Potohari. Only the Dards of the Valley are considered 'Kashmiris' and speak Dardic.



True. As for Jarrals,my friend told me that there's a village called 'jarral' in potohar from where the tribe claims to have originated from. It might just be one of those origin myths though lol


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## Tergon18

mughal arslan shah mirza said:


> Not just that, there were fights between sikhs and Gakkhars/ Janjuas. Sikhs fought Gakkhars initially in gujarat . Janjuas at the time were divided into three different sub-clans and all of them fought valiantly, sikhs carried out a sikh-month siege of one of their forts where Ranjit singh himself fought ? (read it ages ago, would post here if i find it).
> Also, Adina beg's armies had Gakkhars and Janjuas and were backed by these and other punjabi clans.
> 
> Some writer I was reading mentioned that imagine if all these clans had united? The big question is as to why there was hardly much unity amongst punjabi muslims. In fact there were sub-clan rivalries that cost them let alone uniting across clan lines



Yeah at first Gakhars captured Gujrat







Which later fell to the Bhangi Misl






As for Punjabi Muslims, they were first united under Adina Khan Arain when the Rohillas invaded Punjab and were driven out






And after on a greater scale against the Sikh Misls






He could have been like Abdali, who united Pashtuns, for Punjabi Muslims but unfortunately he died from a disease and after that there was no attempt at unity or any alliance.

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## Kabira

^^
Sikhs defeated Mukharab Khan and captured Gujrat fort in 1765. 

this is from 1797






@Braith shahanchibashi mentioned here was Afghan?


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## Tergon18

save_ghenda said:


> ^^
> Sikhs defeated Mukharab Khan and captured Gujrat fort in 1765.
> 
> this is from 1797
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Braith shahanchibashi mentioned here was Afghan?



Shahanchibashi was general of Zaman Shah Durrani, though not sure if he was Afghan. His surname is interesting but doesnt sound Afghan.
Hayat Khan Warraich captured Islamgarh 1797 and Shahanchibashi made it his base of operations, so was he allied with Waraich?

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## Braith

save_ghenda said:


> @Braith shahanchibashi mentioned here was Afghan?


Dont know whether he was an ethnic Afghan, but he surely was from Afghanistan


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## Kabira

Tergon18 said:


> Hayat Khan Warraich captured Islamgarh 1797 and Shahanchibashi made it his base of operations, so was he allied with Waraich?



Yes. Chattahs of Gujranwala also allied with Afghans in 1797 against sikhs.

BY LEPEL H. GRIFFIN

Nur Muhammad was bom in 1704. When he grew up his friendship was sought by Raja Banjit Deo of Jammu and by the chiefs of Multan, for the Chattahs had now grown powerful and Nur Muhammad was their acknowledged chief. When Nur Muhammad ^^97 old^ Ahmad KAan^ his younger son, a brave and skilful soldier led the Chattahs to battle. The great enemies of the tribe were the Sukarchakia chiefs of Gujranwala, who were ever striving to extend their possessions. In the time of Sardar Charrat Singh the Chattahs held their own, and Ahmad Khan, in 1765^ captured the celebrated Bhangi gun which Charrat Singh had placed in Gujranwala. 

Soon after this Ahmad Khan and his brother Pir Muhammad quarreled, and fought for some time with varying success and among the killed were Bahram Khan and Kadar Baksh sons of Ahmad Khan^ and Fatah Muhammad his nephew. At last Pir Muhammad sought help from Gujar Singh and Sahib Singh Bhangi who invited Ahmad Khan to a conferencei captured him and shut him up without water till he agreed to resign the great gun which was carried to the fort of Gujrat.​​Mir Manuj the viceroy of Ahmad Shah Duranii laid siege to the fort of Manchar for some months without success^ but when the Emperor himself invaded the Panjab, he seems to have treated
the Chattah chiefs with consideration and to have confirmed them in their possessions. Sirdar Charrat Singh, the Chattah enemy died in 1774^ closely followed by Nur Muhammad and his son Pir Muhammad.​​The towns founded in the Gujranwala district by these chiefs are neither few nor unimportant. Among those founded by Nur Muhammad were Ahmadnagar, Ghadhi Gul Muhammad and Rasul-
nagar, renamed by the Sikhs Ramnagar^ while Pir Muhammad built three difibrent forts called after his own name, also Kot Mian Khan^ Alipur, renamed by the Sikhs Akalghar, Naiwala^ Kot Salim^ Kot Ali
Muhammad and Fatahpur. Ghulam Muhammad^ who succeeded to the estate succeeded also to the hatred of the Sukarchakias. 

Both Sirdar Mahan Singh son of Charrat Singh and Ghulam Mukammad were able
and brave men^ and it was clear that peace could only result from the death of one or the other. For a long time the advantage lay with the Chattahs and Mahan Singh was defeated on several occasions. Once he
besieged Jhokian, held by Mian Khan, uncle of Ghulam Muhammad^ who came down in haste to reUeve it. After some hard fighting, peace was agreed upon, but in an unguarded moment the treacherous Sikh seized
Mian Khan carried him off prisoner and blew him from a gun. 

At length, in 1790, Mahan Singh, having become very powerful, assembled his forces and besieged Manchar. The siege lasted for more than six months, and the Sikhs lost a large number of men. The young Ranjlt Singh himself was in great danger, for Hanhmat Khan uncle of Ghulam Muhammad^ charged bis escort with a few sowars and climbing upon bis elephant, was about to kill the child, when he was stiack down by the attendants. Ghulam Muhammad seeing that he could no longer hold the fort, offered to surrender if he were allowed to leave for Mecca in safety. This Mahan Singh promised solemnly, but he had hardly sworn his truth, than one of his men, by his orders or with his connivance, shot the brave Chattah chief through the head. Mahan Singh then gave up Manchar to plunder, and seized the greater part of the Chattah territory.​​Jan Muhammad son of Ghulam Muhammad escaped to Kabul, from whence he returned in 1797, with Shah Zaman, and by the aid of the Afghans recovered his possessions on the Chenab ; but when his protec-
tor had returned to Afghanistan, Ranjit Singh attacked Rusulnagar, determined to destroy for ever the Chattah power. The besieged made a gallant resistance, but day by day their numbers and their strength
diminished. Unlike the divine twin brothers who fought so well for Bome by Lake Begillus, the Muhammadan saints abandoned their followers, for the story is that the Chattahs asked a famous fakir who
lived at Rasolnagar to aid them. '^ How can I help you,'' wis his reply, *^ when I see the holy ^ Mahbub Subhani, dressed in green, fighting on the side of Ranjit Singh." At length Jan Muhummad was killed by
a cannon shot and the fort surrendered.​
​​

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## Braith

"From Charat Singh, Zamzama was snatched by the Pathans of Chhata who took it to Ahmadnagar where it became a bone of contention *between the Pathan brothers Ahmad Khan and Pir Muhammad.* In the fight that ensued, two sons of Ahmad Khan and one of Pir Muhammad were killed. In this fight, Gujjar Singh Bhangi sided with Pir Muhammad. After the victory, the gun was restored to Gujjar Singh. After two years, the gun was wrested by Charat Singh Shukerchakia from whom it was once again snatched by the Pathans.

Next year, Sardar Jhanda Singh Bhangi defeated the Pathans of Chhata and brought the gun to Amritsar. In 1802, Ranjit Singh, after defeating the Bhangis, got hold of the gun. He used it in the battles of Daska, Kasur, Sujanpur, Wazirabad and Multan. In the siege of Multan, the gun was badly damaged."
http://www.tribuneindia.com/1998/98oct31/saturday/head4.htm


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## Tergon18

Braith said:


> "From Charat Singh, Zamzama was snatched by the Pathans of Chhata who took it to Ahmadnagar where it became a bone of contention *between the Pathan brothers Ahmad Khan and Pir Muhammad.* In the fight that ensued, two sons of Ahmad Khan and one of Pir Muhammad were killed. In this fight, Gujjar Singh Bhangi sided with Pir Muhammad. After the victory, the gun was restored to Gujjar Singh. After two years, the gun was wrested by Charat Singh Shukerchakia from whom it was once again snatched by the Pathans.
> 
> Next year, Sardar Jhanda Singh Bhangi defeated the Pathans of Chhata and brought the gun to Amritsar. In 1802, Ranjit Singh, after defeating the Bhangis, got hold of the gun. He used it in the battles of Daska, Kasur, Sujanpur, Wazirabad and Multan. In the siege of Multan, the gun was badly damaged."
> http://www.tribuneindia.com/1998/98oct31/saturday/head4.htm



'Pathans of Chatha'? Lol
That is an error or fallacious narrative. Chatthas are Punjabis and are still present in great number in Gujranwala area.


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## Kabira

Braith said:


> "From Charat Singh, Zamzama was snatched by the Pathans of Chhata who took it to Ahmadnagar where it became a bone of contention *between the Pathan brothers Ahmad Khan and Pir Muhammad.* In the fight that ensued, two sons of Ahmad Khan and one of Pir Muhammad were killed. In this fight, Gujjar Singh Bhangi sided with Pir Muhammad. After the victory, the gun was restored to Gujjar Singh. After two years, the gun was wrested by Charat Singh Shukerchakia from whom it was once again snatched by the Pathans.
> 
> Next year, Sardar Jhanda Singh Bhangi defeated the Pathans of Chhata and brought the gun to Amritsar. In 1802, Ranjit Singh, after defeating the Bhangis, got hold of the gun. He used it in the battles of Daska, Kasur, Sujanpur, Wazirabad and Multan. In the siege of Multan, the gun was badly damaged."
> http://www.tribuneindia.com/1998/98oct31/saturday/head4.htm



Chatthas are not pathans though, this is what seem to have happened.

"Soon after this Ahmad Khan and his brother Pir Muhammad quarreled, and fought for some time with varying success and among the killed were Bahram Khan and Kadar Baksh sons of Ahmad Khan^ and Fatah Muhammad his nephew. *At last Pir Muhammad sought help from Gujar Singh and Sahib Singh Bhangi who invited Ahmad Khan to a conference captured him and shut him up without water till he agreed to resign the great gun which was carried to the fort of Gujrat*."

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## Tergon18

save_ghenda said:


> Yes. Chattahs of Gujranwala also allied with Afghans in 1797 against sikhs.
> 
> BY LEPEL H. GRIFFIN
> 
> Nur Muhammad was bom in 1704. When he grew up his friendship was sought by Raja Banjit Deo of Jammu and by the chiefs of Multan, for the Chattahs had now grown powerful and Nur Muhammad was their acknowledged chief. When Nur Muhammad ^^97 old^ Ahmad KAan^ his younger son, a brave and skilful soldier led the Chattahs to battle. The great enemies of the tribe were the Sukarchakia chiefs of Gujranwala, who were ever striving to extend their possessions. In the time of Sardar Charrat Singh the Chattahs held their own, and Ahmad Khan, in 1765^ captured the celebrated Bhangi gun which Charrat Singh had placed in Gujranwala.
> 
> Soon after this Ahmad Khan and his brother Pir Muhammad quarreled, and fought for some time with varying success and among the killed were Bahram Khan and Kadar Baksh sons of Ahmad Khan^ and Fatah Muhammad his nephew. At last Pir Muhammad sought help from Gujar Singh and Sahib Singh Bhangi who invited Ahmad Khan to a conferencei captured him and shut him up without water till he agreed to resign the great gun which was carried to the fort of Gujrat.
> Mir Manuj the viceroy of Ahmad Shah Duranii laid siege to the fort of Manchar for some months without success^ but when the Emperor himself invaded the Panjab, he seems to have treated
> the Chattah chiefs with consideration and to have confirmed them in their possessions. Sirdar Charrat Singh, the Chattah enemy died in 1774^ closely followed by Nur Muhammad and his son Pir Muhammad.
> The towns founded in the Gujranwala district by these chiefs are neither few nor unimportant. Among those founded by Nur Muhammad were Ahmadnagar, Ghadhi Gul Muhammad and Rasul-
> nagar, renamed by the Sikhs Ramnagar^ while Pir Muhammad built three difibrent forts called after his own name, also Kot Mian Khan^ Alipur, renamed by the Sikhs Akalghar, Naiwala^ Kot Salim^ Kot Ali
> Muhammad and Fatahpur. Ghulam Muhammad^ who succeeded to the estate succeeded also to the hatred of the Sukarchakias.
> 
> Both Sirdar Mahan Singh son of Charrat Singh and Ghulam Mukammad were able
> and brave men^ and it was clear that peace could only result from the death of one or the other. For a long time the advantage lay with the Chattahs and Mahan Singh was defeated on several occasions. Once he
> besieged Jhokian, held by Mian Khan, uncle of Ghulam Muhammad^ who came down in haste to reUeve it. After some hard fighting, peace was agreed upon, but in an unguarded moment the treacherous Sikh seized
> Mian Khan carried him off prisoner and blew him from a gun.
> 
> At length, in 1790, Mahan Singh, having become very powerful, assembled his forces and besieged Manchar. The siege lasted for more than six months, and the Sikhs lost a large number of men. The young Ranjlt Singh himself was in great danger, for Hanhmat Khan uncle of Ghulam Muhammad^ charged bis escort with a few sowars and climbing upon bis elephant, was about to kill the child, when he was stiack down by the attendants. Ghulam Muhammad seeing that he could no longer hold the fort, offered to surrender if he were allowed to leave for Mecca in safety. This Mahan Singh promised solemnly, but he had hardly sworn his truth, than one of his men, by his orders or with his connivance, shot the brave Chattah chief through the head. Mahan Singh then gave up Manchar to plunder, and seized the greater part of the Chattah territory.
> Jan Muhammad son of Ghulam Muhammad escaped to Kabul, from whence he returned in 1797, with Shah Zaman, and by the aid of the Afghans recovered his possessions on the Chenab ; but when his protec-
> tor had returned to Afghanistan, Ranjit Singh attacked Rusulnagar, determined to destroy for ever the Chattah power. The besieged made a gallant resistance, but day by day their numbers and their strength
> diminished. Unlike the divine twin brothers who fought so well for Bome by Lake Begillus, the Muhammadan saints abandoned their followers, for the story is that the Chattahs asked a famous fakir who
> lived at Rasolnagar to aid them. '^ How can I help you,'' wis his reply, *^ when I see the holy ^ Mahbub Subhani, dressed in green, fighting on the side of Ranjit Singh." At length Jan Muhummad was killed by
> a cannon shot and the fort surrendered.
> 
> ​



I think that it is interesting that some Punjabi Muslims like Hayat Khan and Jan Muhammad were allied at some time with Durranis while others like Adina Khan fought them at various times. Same case with Nader Shah, Mukarrab Khan Gakhar allied with him and joined him onto Karnal while others like Dillo and Saidoo Gondal of Mandi Bahauddin fought him.


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## Kabira

Bihari Sher said:


> You're right bhaiya, we conquered all of South Asia under guidance of Angrezi:



Brother how are you?


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## TopCat

I dont think punjabis are actually indian.


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## Tergon18

Braith said:


> Are you Punjabi from mother side?............i have seen your pictures and your facial features is of Punjabi rather than of a Marri-Baloch. Your complexion is dark but Balochs are generally also very dark .......You did tell us that your family has intermarried a lot with other ethnic groups.. For example on this very thread you threw taunt of Babur taking Pashtun wife in knee-jerk-reaction to an imagined insult against Punjabis, while i simply stated that "Two Ghakkar women entered into the royal harem"............how is a Muslim woman from Ghakkar tribe marrying a Muslim prince from Mughal, an insult against Punjabis?....



Lol, just read this. Would you not consider Maulana Fazlur Rehman as Marwat due to his complexion? As for giving daughters/ marrying and all, even Barakzai Afghan king Sher Ali Khan gave his daughter to Gakhar chief Jahandad Khan. It is a repsectable union, nothing insulting in it.


> He decrees to ban azaan and cow-slaughter, clearly makes him non-secular.



Yeah, thats why I said I said 'secular to some degree', obviously not fully secular in modern day sense. He was on one end of the secular spectrum, especially considering regional and socio-political circumstances at that time.


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## Kabira

Kharral said:


> You have raised a very interesting point here, some years ago I came across a fellow kharral from Multan through a common friend in London, the man had a go at me for not having Rai as the title & instead having Chaudhary as title ( I personally don't give a toss about either of these title ) untill I explained to him that in Gujrat, Mandi Bahaudin,Sialkot & Gujranwala districts claiming Rajput ancestory would mean inviting people to queue up for head,face & arm pit shaves outside ones house. Even Bhatti Rajputs don't use titles of Rai or Raja in the above motioned districts and are identified as Jutts in mentioned districts.
> The situation however is different in Hafizabad, Sheikhupura, Sargodha & further south in Punjab. However Mirza Jutt ( the character in one of Punjabi folklore ) was also a kharral originating in down south the Ravi bar.
> All my relations and all those that I know of are in to Jutt clans, like Warraich, Sandhu, Gondal, Ghumman, Cheema & such, I am yet to see any one from my side marrying a janjua, kiyani, chib, jaral or such Rajput tribes.
> According to whatever little information I have gathered so far & research done the concept of Rajput & a related title remained untill one remained a Hindu.
> Nearly all the jutt tribes & clans claim Rajput ancestory.
> 
> One interesting thing that I came across was an election census or report listing the representation gained by different Qaums ( castes or tribes ) in elections back in 60s. The interesting point being that we Kharrals were neither counted in/under Jutt or Rajput categories but a completely separate category of our own. This was a couple of years ago and I have since then tried to get my hands on to that peice of paper for some further insight but I have been unsuccessful so far.
> 
> Another example being Sir Zafar ULLAH Khan, who like me hailed from the Sahi sub clan of Kharrals while his mother being from a Bajwa ( Jutt ) family in modern day Narowal.
> 
> I hope I have made some sense & cleared any doubts that you may have.



I came across this paper about pastoral or semi nomadic Ravi bar tribes roles in 1857, they are identified as jutt tribes including Khurruls, Khattias, Wattoos, Fatwanas etc

"The British administrators and narrators have described their contributions in their biographies and gazetteers. By describing their role, they have actually drawn a difference between their allies and traitors after the War of Independence (1857). Their writings have declared those tribes as criminal tribes. _“These tribes had been cattle-stealers and thieves from time immemorial; but being of no political importance, the Sikhs, after two unsuccessful attempts to conquer them, took only the precaution of having armed escorts when passing through the district, and allowed them to remain in almost undisturbed indulgence of their predatory propensities, especially as these rarely extended beyond their own immediate neighbours; thus they were generally left to settle their raids and their thefts, and to fight out their quarrels among themselves.” However the objective of tribal chiefs was the achievement for the “emancipation of their beloved homeland.”_

According to Branderth, Secretary to Chief Commissioner of Punjab, wrote a letter to Secretary (Foreign Affairs) Government of India, _“These clans can muster some 20 to 30,000 men, and occupy a tract of country in the Googaira District of full 40 to 50 miles in breadth, and from 70 to 80 in length. They have few villages, and generally reside in temporary grass huts, which are constructed in such localities as afford the best pasturage and water for their numerous herds of cattle. They are known under the domination of Khurruls, Khattias, Wattoos, Fatwanas and other names, and are of Jat lineage.”43_

The British forces possessed advanced weapons and they used the weapons without any hurdle in the War. But the local tribes of Googaira district had not even a single weapon to fight with the British. They fought with the British without guns and bullets. The British suspected that the rebels achieved the weapons from the Multan, but this supply of weapons had no historical relevance and no proof was found in this aspect. They made their tools and weapons from the blacksmith. The British historians describe that, _“In the district around are numerous Mohammedan tribes of Jut origin, at present degenerated into cattlefeeders and cattle-stealers, who nevertheless retained somewhat of their ancestral love of war and plunder; hundreds and thousands oh whom wanted only the opportunity and encouragement to spring up armed—for though nominally disarmed, what Punjabee does not know where to lay hands on his weapon in time of need?---and at the first sound of the war—cry, “Deen! Deen! (religion), in Moslem fanaticism, they would have made Mooltan their rallying-point._”

http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/HistoryPStudies/PDF-FILES/13-Saeed_V28_no2.pdf

British used to write that all these pastoral or otherwise jutt tribes were off rajput origins from Delhi, rajasthan, Up etc origins but genetic tests doesn't prove their theories. Here is about kharrals

"The Kharrals are Rajputs. Their ancestor was Raja Karn of Hastinapur (which is in Uttar Pradesh). His descendent Bhupa left that place and came to Uch, where he and his son Kharral were converted by Makhdum Jahania Shah. From Uch the Kharrals spread over the country about the Ravi. They appear to have settled first in the Sandal Bar (Lyallpur District) Montgomery District Gazetteer, 1933 (Lahore,1935),p.94"


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## asad71

1.The major uprising was by the Bengal Army. The English Co then also maintained the Madras Army and the Bombay Army. The revolt had received widespread support of the Muslims, whereas the Hindu support ws neither spontaneous nor widespread. In the Punjab the Muslim landlords and hereditary Pirs that the English patronized opposed the revolt. But the crucial support for the English came from Patiala Maharaja. But for the Patiala Sikh troops, and later the Gurkhas, the English could not have contained the revolt.

2. Interestingly Capt Amarindar Singh, CM of Indian Punjab is the current Maharaja of Patiala and a direct descendant of the Maharaja whose troops had committed horrible atrocities and loot of Delhi. In Pakistan these landed and religious aristocracies continue. Just check out the family name. In BD we have done away with these blood-sucking stooges of colonial masters. Same in WB, TN and Kerala.

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## Kabira

asad71 said:


> 1.The major uprising was by the Bengal Army. The English Co then also maintained the Madras Army and the Bombay Army. The revolt had received widespread support of the Muslims, whereas the Hindu support ws neither spontaneous nor widespread. In the Punjab the Muslim landlords and hereditary Pirs that the English patronized opposed the revolt. But the crucial support for the English came from Patiala Maharaja. But for the Patiala Sikh troops, and later the Gurkhas, the English could not have contained the revolt.
> 
> 2. Interestingly Capt Amarindar Singh, CM of Indian Punjab is the current Maharaja of Patiala and a direct descendant of the Maharaja whose troops had committed horrible atrocities and loot of Delhi. In Pakistan these landed and religious aristocracies continue. Just check out the family name. In BD we have done away with these blood-sucking stooges of colonial masters. Same in WB, TN and Kerala.



In punjab tribes who sided with British in 1857 revolt gained economically, politically and military. Most famously the Tiwana chief of Shapur on its on went to British officer and offered him people to crush 1857 revolt. Later on Khizr Hayat Khan Tiwana will go on to become PM of punjab. But their continued support for Unionsts well in to 1947 meant that soon after Pakistan was formed they lost all their political clout but not the land and businesses.

*THE TIWANAS*
THE TIWANAS The Tiwana family of Shahpur district in northwest Punjab were one of the score or so landed families who benefited enormously from the British rule of their province The vast irrigation system built by the British included "private canals" that drew water from the main rivers of the province during the rainy season A number of these inundation canals were located in the riverine tract of the Jhelum River, and from 1860 onward they were entrusted to the area's large landlords for management These were not the only concessions granted by the British to the landed families of Punjab Land was also awarded under a number of other schemes, including land for maintaining stud farms to provide horses and mules needed by the British armed forces in India Under the patronage of the British, the Tiwanas were able to vastly expand their holdings This was a good investment by the British rulers; the Tiwanas and other landed aristocrats provided the rulers with much needed loyalty in an area in which opposition to British rule could have been both embarrassing and expensive The British recruited a large number of soldiers from Shahpur to put down the disturbances associated with the Great Indian Mutiny of 1857 They also turned to Shahpur and neighboring districts to recruit soldiers for the British Indian Army during World Wars I and II And finally, when much of India became openly hostile to British rule�a development that shook the Indian subcontinent in the 1930s and 1940s�Punjab remained steadfastly loyal to its rulers


Under Khizar Hayat Khan Tiwana, the prime minister of Punjab, the landed interests of the province opposed Muhammad Ali Jinnah and his demand for establishing Pakistan, an independent homeland for the Muslims of British India. *Khizar Hayat Khan Tiwana became so closely associated with the anti-Pakistan movement in Punjab that the Tiwanas paid a heavy political price once Pakistan came into being Whereas other landed families were able to find their way back into the mainstream of Punjabi politics in Pakistan, the Tiwanas did not fully recover their prominence Khizar was never invited back into the corridors of power in Lahore.*
http://www.kppsc.com.pk/pages/?The-tiwanas

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## asad71

This is also related. Tiwanas had been the biggest land owners of Punjab. They were not only deprived of their holdings by the Sikhs but also driven out of their land. Even their women folk were disgraced. The Sikh Wars, which was ten years before the so called Mutiny/War of Independence, helped the Muslim landlords defeating and ousting Sikh from the corridors of power in Lahore. They got back their lands and continued their support for the British, fearing lest the Sikhs comeback. The atrocities of the Sikh rule were numerous including converting Shahi Mosque in front of Lahore Fort into the stable for their cavalry.


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## xairhossi

asad71 said:


> This is also related. Tiwanas had been the biggest land owners of Punjab. They were not only deprived of their holdings by the Sikhs but also driven out of their land. Even their women folk were disgraced. The Sikh Wars, which was ten years before the so called Mutiny/War of Independence, helped the Muslim landlords defeating and ousting Sikh from the corridors of power in Lahore. They got back their lands and continued their support for the British, fearing lest the Sikhs comeback. The atrocities of the Sikh rule were numerous including converting Shahi Mosque in front of Lahore Fort into the stable for their cavalry.



During Sikh times, Malik Fateh Khan Tiwana was the governor of the 'NWFP' or conquered Pashtun areas, he only fell out of favor after murdering the crown prince Pishora Singh and throwing him off the Attock Fort into the Indus. And it wasn't as simple as that, there were many Muslim chiefs, both Punjabi and even Pashtun, that were allied with Ranjit Singh.

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## Kabira

asad71 said:


> This is also related. Tiwanas had been the biggest land owners of Punjab. They were not only deprived of their holdings by the Sikhs but also driven out of their land. Even their women folk were disgraced. The Sikh Wars, which was ten years before the so called Mutiny/War of Independence, helped the Muslim landlords defeating and ousting Sikh from the corridors of power in Lahore. They got back their lands and continued their support for the British, fearing lest the Sikhs comeback. The atrocities of the Sikh rule were numerous including converting Shahi Mosque in front of Lahore Fort into the stable for their cavalry.



I don't think Tiwanas were thrown out of their land by sikhs, source? Tiwanas were ones who gained most out of all others who sided with British. I don't know about their fortune now but back then they were richest family in Pakistan. They fell out of political landscape after continued support for Unionsts otherwise they may have been Sharif brothers of punjab politics.

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## asad71

save_ghenda said:


> I don't think Tiwanas were thrown out of their land by sikhs, source? Tiwanas were ones who gained most out of all others who sided with British. I don't know about their fortune now but back then they were richest family in Pakistan. They fell out of political landscape after continued support for Unionsts otherwise they may have been Sharif brothers of punjab politics.


Many thanks. Actually my source is a Tiwana Malik who is my old friend.


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## Mian Babban

xairhossi said:


> During Sikh times, Malik Fateh Khan Tiwana was the governor of the 'NWFP' or conquered Pashtun areas, he only fell out of favor after murdering the crown prince Pishora Singh and throwing him off the Attock Fort into the Indus. And it wasn't as simple as that, there were many Muslim chiefs, both Punjabi and even Pashtun, that were allied with Ranjit Singh.


To be precise he was made governor (kardar or revenue-collector) of only Bannu after first Anglo-Sikh war . A fort was built by him in my home town Lakki in 1844.


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